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Special Episode: POC Underrepresented In Nonprofit Leadership

My Guest:

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: POC Underrepresented In Nonprofit Leadership

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld

The willingness and skills of people of color aren’t represented in leadership circles. That’s the main message coming out of Building Movement Project’s report, “Race To Lead Revisited.” We visit the report’s conclusions and recommendations with BMP’s co-director, Sean Thomas-Breitfeld.


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[00:01:48.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism, people of color underrepresented in non profit leadership. That’s the main message coming out of building movement projects Report. Race to Lead Revisited We visit the report’s conclusions and recommendations with BMPs co director Sean Thomas Brett felled, responsive by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO and by dot drives, raise more money, changed more lives for a free demo and free month. It’s my pleasure to welcome to the show. Sean Thomas Bright Felled. He is co director at the Building Moving Building Movement Project. He previously worked in various roles at community change, developing training programs for grassroots leaders and worked in the communications and policy departments where he coordinated online and grassroots advocacy efforts and lobbied on a range of issues including immigration reform, transportation, equity and anti poverty programs. Building movement project is at building movement, or GE, and at B L. D. I N G movement. John Thomas Bright felt Welcome to non profit radio

[00:01:51.64] spk_0:
Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:53.33] spk_1:
It’s supposed

[00:01:53.87] spk_0:
to be here with you.

[00:01:54.83] spk_1:
It’s good. It’s a pleasure. Thank you. So why don’t you start by describing the work at Building Movement Project?

[00:02:02.44] spk_0:
Sure, so building movement projects been around for over 20 years, and from our founding we’ve had three main areas of focus. One is what we call movement building, looking at how organizations collaborate, how nonprofit organizations can be part of movements for social change and social justice, and what it takes for organizations and non profit leaders to really be on the forefront of making big leading some big structural changes in our society. We’ve also looked at what we call a non profits and social change or service and social change because we think there is a particular role for human service organizations in bringing about structural and systemic change in our society and that that’s really important to support on. Also encourage organizations like that to get involved in advocacy. Listen to an uplift, the voice and on power of the communities that are being served, and then the third bucket of work has always focused on leadership, so recognizing that leading a nonprofit organization is a very hard job we’ve always looked at What does it take for leaders? But also, what does it take for non profit leadership? Thio really have aligned both the practices of leadership with the values that organizations hold. And so over the last several years, we’ve been particularly focused on issues of race and leadership in non profit organization. That’s what the race to lead work comes out of.

[00:03:41.14] spk_1:
Okay, right? And the This race to lead revisited report is really comparing a 2016 survey for the original race to lead with a 2019 survey for this report. Exactly.

[00:04:04.84] spk_0:
Yeah, so we surveyed people working in the nonprofit sector both in 2016 and 2019 on these issues of race and leadership. So this report race to lead revisited at some comparisons between the findings from 2016 and 2019 to see how the sector’s been evolving

[00:04:55.34] spk_1:
and you did have some new questions as well. We’ll have time to get to some of those, um, you talk about Well, first I got to say, I realize the contrast here I have long white hair and you have short, dark hair. We are. We know in the hair. We are. We’re not similar in hair. My God. Uh, yeah, OK, Sorry I couldn’t help notice. Um, you talk about we’re gonna have fun on non profit radio. I mean, it’s a serious subject, but we have fun nonetheless. So you talk about white advantage in the report versus white privilege? You mentioned white privilege once or twice, but predominantly. Talk about white advantage. What’s the What’s the difference there? What? What? What are you trying to say? A little different than the the more seems more common, you know, white privilege.

[00:05:05.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So what’s the term white advantage? What we’re trying to focus on is some of the structural advantages that accrue to non profit organizations based on, you know, multiple people in positions of power being white. So particularly thinking about the composition of boards and the composition of senior leadership teams. Um, because, you know, I think oftentimes the analysis is very individualistic, right? So, like, there’s an individual white person in the executive director role of the organization that only paints part of the picture on DSO we wanted to have a more complicated and nuanced analysis of what’s actually happened. An organization s O, that it became less about, like, the it one person at the top of organizational hierarchy. And think about it, uh, in a way that encompasses both the board leadership and senior staff.

[00:06:04.44] spk_1:
Okay. And then the structures as well, it seems thio less focused on an individual or individuals and mawr, uh, levers of power and processes policies.

[00:06:27.04] spk_0:
Exactly. And it also became a way thio understand and sort of unpack. Um, how, uh, sort of whiteness of organizations that, like in our sample, right, like, 45% of respondents work for organizations where both more than 75% of the board is white and more than 75% of staff and top leadership are white on. And, you know, I think that for me, that was actually somewhat startling in surprising um, And then we also saw that those organizations tend to have bigger budgets at least was being reported by the staff. Um but then, at the same time, we’re seeing that staff were reporting more negative experiences in those types of organizations compared to organizations with more diverse leadership on both the board and senior staff levels.

[00:07:29.64] spk_1:
And so the overall message that I got from this is that the power remains in boards and at the sea levels of nonprofits, and those are predominantly white. And that and that that really hasn’t changed from 2016 to 2019.

[00:07:35.24] spk_0:
Yeah, that hasn’t well, it’s hard to know because we actually didn’t ask the question in this way back in 2016. But I think that this, um, sort of puts our data in the context of some of the research that board source has done that shows that boards are overwhelmingly the majority of non profit boards are overwhelmingly white

[00:07:59.14] spk_1:
and also not reflecting the communities that they’re serving. Absolutely. Yeah,

[00:08:01.54] spk_0:
yeah, because I think what has happened is that the function of non profit boards very often is less a function of accountability to the organization’s constituency and mission on, because organizations often have a lot of responsibility for fundraising and raising the resource is for the organization to do its work. Um, that as a result of that sort of demand, organizations often have, um, prioritized recruiting from people who holds wealth in their communities and because of racial wealth gaps that tend to be white people

[00:08:41.04] spk_1:
on dhe. That’s recruiting for both leadership and volunteer position board with talking about boards and you make it very clear we’re talking about boards as well as C suite. You know, CEO, executive director level.

[00:08:54.14] spk_0:

[00:08:56.24] spk_1:
So let’s go into the three. I guess main conclusions that the report identifies first one is that things really haven’t changed that much. We’ve already alluded to it. Things haven’t changed that much in the three years.

[00:09:14.44] spk_0:
Yeah, and you know, I’m not sure how surprising that should be. Um, for our sector. You know, I think the change is often particularly in organizations. When we’re talking about organizations where we’re talking about the composition of the staff, that kind of change is incremental, right? I think that what has shifted is that, particularly in the last year is much more consciousness raising much more awareness on the part of organizations that these imbalances, these inequities exist and needs to be addressed. Um, but recognizing that there is a problem is not the same thing is taking action to address the problem.

[00:10:18.34] spk_1:
So you are seeing mawr alright, consciousness raising awareness. It seems like predominantly because of the diversity equity and inclusion work that Ah lot of organizations have done. But it’s just sort of, you know, I’m I gleaned from the reports, just sort of scratching the surface. I mean, ah, lot of it is trainings that raise awareness, but we’re not seeing much action flowing from that consciousness raising.

[00:10:23.84] spk_0:
Yeah, And so one example of the increased consciousness was that in both 2016 and 2019 we asked survey respondents what impact to their race had had on their career advancement. And, uh, for white respondents back in 2016 roughly half indicated that their race. They recognize that the race had a positive impact on their career advancement. So this sort of classic recognition of white privilege that increased to two thirds of the white sample in 29 so one from half to two thirds. So you know that is e think progress, right? In terms of like people having a recognition and understanding that white privileges riel and that it’s positively the benefits of that privilege are accruing to white people in nonprofit organization. Um however, the same question also revealed that back in 2016 a third roughly of people of color felt that their own race have negatively impacted their career advancement, and that then increased almost basically half off the sample of people of color in 2019. So the increased consciousness is both, you know, I think leading people to recognize the ways that they have been disadvantaged as well as for white people the way that they have been advantaged on DSO. You know, we’re still left with this challenge. This problem. That race is clearly having an impact on people’s advancement. And so it needs to be addressed in organizations in ways that I don’t think training is sufficient. Thio thick

[00:12:04.14] spk_1:
right? But you acknowledge consciousness, raising an awareness that that is the first step. But we have a lot more, a lot, a lot further to go. I mean, you know, it’s just

[00:12:14.61] spk_0:

[00:12:50.24] spk_1:
widely recognized that, you know, you don’t just do trainings a couple of trainings over six months and then check your box. You know d e. I is covered. Let’s move on, Thio. Let’s move on to the gala. You know it za process. It’s a journey, you know we’ve had other guests say the same thing. It takes time. Thio, uh, change the policies, the practices, the traditions Even if they’re not written down, that our advantage ing white folks over people of color, This takes time. But you gotta You’ve got to start somewhere.

[00:12:52.74] spk_0:
Yes, and I think consciousness raising is is an important and legitimate starting point.

[00:13:42.54] spk_1:
Right? And we’re just getting started, okay? It’s time for a break. Turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know this turn to is led by former journalists. So you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships, they’re gonna help you when you want to be heard so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners was an editor of the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know the non profit space they’re at turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to P. O. C. Underrepresented in non profit leadership. Are you going to do this in three years again?

[00:13:45.94] spk_0:
It’s a very good question. You know, it’s hard

[00:13:48.15] spk_1:

[00:13:48.28] spk_0:
know, uh, in terms of, like, capacity funding, all of those things um, but yeah, I think that it seems worthwhile to keep revisiting thes issues, given the pace of change. Um, having been pretty slow just in the time that we’ve been collecting this data.

[00:14:24.14] spk_1:
All right, Um, anything else you want to say about you know, how the the findings from 2016 are pretty similar? Uh, yeah. Continue through to 2019 before we go on to the next. Well,

[00:14:24.49] spk_0:
sure. I think the reason that we felt like it was worth restating on pointing out the similarity in in terms of the findings between 2016 and 2019 was because, um, you know, from our perspective, it was really important to state very clearly to the sector. But there are people of color who are in the pipeline that the pipeline is not necessarily the problem. Uh, there’s, I think, different metaphors that people have used unpack and try to understand what the problem is of why we’re not seeing more representative leadership at the top levels of nonprofit organizations. And our view has just been that it’s not a pipeline issue per se. There are people of color who have the skills training credentials to be in those top roles, but they face racialized barriers to actually moving into those top jobs to being hired for those top jobs. And so we just felt like it was important to remind the sector of that finding, Um and sort of not lapse back into, ah narrative that, like we need to train more people of color because somehow people of color are not ready toe lead. People of color are ready to lead, but are often too often not given the opportunity.

[00:15:38.84] spk_1:
Not only have the skill sets already, but are willing to, in fact, what willing Thio want. Thio want to advance the leadership in greater numbers than the and the white respondents?

[00:15:51.94] spk_0:

[00:15:53.03] spk_1:
E guess. There’s narrative that, you know there’s a lack of interest in in people of color advancing toe leadership. But you’ve dashed that.

[00:16:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that part of the reason that’s important is because if people hold this mental model that who wants to be a leader is, uh, not a person of color, then they’re going to ignore the leadership potential of people of color in their organization.

[00:16:26.64] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s very convenient. Well, you know, the folks of color don’t really aspire to leadership. So no need to consider them. So Okay, so you’ve you’ve dashed that it’s not so in two respects. It’s not a pipeline issue. The skills air there and the willingness Is there a ZX? Well,

[00:16:36.24] spk_0:

[00:16:42.44] spk_1:
desire Thio advance and to lead. Okay, Um right. So remember your second main main conclusion, I guess, is there is white advantage. We were talking around it. Now we come right out and say there is white advantage in the nonprofit sector.

[00:18:59.24] spk_0:
There is. And, um, you know, I think that the the white advantage takes multiple forms, right? So I think that there have been over the last several months Mawr written about like, what happened? What’s called now? Philanthropic redlining, right, that organizations that are led by people of color, particularly black led organizations, are don’t get access to the same kind of resource is as the white led organizations focused on or serving in communities of color. And so there’s really interesting research both from organizations like Abssi A ZX, well as echoing green and bridge span that really dug into that funding disadvantage. And I think that our data also showed similar findings, particularly when it comes to, for instance, e. D s of color. And this was reported on Maurin a report from based on the 2016 data but E d s of color feeling like they don’t have, they don’t get grants of comparable size to peer organization or that they don’t have access Thio relationships with funders. And so those kinds of advantages in terms of like, who funders trust who funders will give bigger grants thio all of those benefits than accrue to white led organizations that then create this financial gap between organizations, nonprofit organizations based on who’s in positions of power in that institution. And so other ways that the white advantage showed up were in terms of the sort of composition of organizations and the greater comfort that white people, uh, seem tohave in. Those organizations, for instance, on questions like Do people feel like they have a voice in their organization for people working in white, dominant organizations were both the board and senior staff are more than 75% white. That’s where we saw the biggest gaps between people of color and whites in terms of their their agreement with that statement, right? And that gap decreases as you have mawr diverse organizations. And it’s also interesting to note that the average the mean increases. So both people of color and white respondents are more likely to say they have a. They have a voice in their organizations when they work for POC lead groups. So if you know, funders want to invest in organizations that are cultivating that kind of leader full ecosystem inside of their organization that, you know, make it possible for staff to feel like they have a voice and can help to set the direction for the organization, then you know foundations would be wise to really take a hard look at their own investment and the composition of organizations that they’ve been funding on. DSI. You know, like, are these organizations largely white run or are they POC lead on. And if there are largely white one, they should start investing in more organizations that are POC ledge.

[00:20:06.94] spk_1:
You identify five opportunities which we’ll get to, and one of those is put your money where your mouth is. You just say, put your, uh, you

[00:20:08.83] spk_0:
know, money

[00:20:54.04] spk_1:
where mouth is for sure. Yeah, I mean that’s a critical lever of power is funding for any anyone, whether it’s whether it’s corporate or non profit access to capital access to markets. Um, you know, what I thought was really interesting is, um, when you were identifying whether an organization was white lead or POC lead you, you chose as a threshold for white lead, whether more than 75% whether the Board of Leadership is more than 75% white. But then for for people of color lead, the threshold was just 50%. Is that because there just aren’t enough that are that are at the 75% level? So you had to reduce the yet to reduce the threshold to define it as person of color lead? Was that the reason?

[00:21:02.45] spk_0:
Yes. I mean, I think that it reflects the sort of composition of the sector, right. So 45% of respondents reported working for organizations where more than 75% of the board and senior staff were white on then it only 14% of respondents reporting working for organizations where it was over 50% of board and senior staff where people of color, you know, like it’s

[00:21:30.25] spk_1:
hard to have

[00:21:30.98] spk_0:
a comparison between Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:34.02] spk_1:
75% shoulder, 75% for PFC. Lead was gonna be too small a sample You

[00:21:40.57] spk_0:

[00:21:41.99] spk_1:
handful of Okay, uh, e suspected. Okay. Um, yeah. The experience was a little more about the experience. How people experience how people of color experience work in a in a white led organization.

[00:21:58.84] spk_0:
Well, I have to say, this was surprised, Not surprising. But it was interesting that the data was so clear, um, that the these racial gaps were so much larger for respondents working for white run organizations compared toa the POC led groups. And, um, you know, I think that it reflects what we’ve been hearing from the focus groups that we’ve been doing across the country in terms of the frustration, particularly on the part of people of color working in organizations that, um, you know, I think often feel somewhat alienating. And where people feel like they, um their leadership potential is not recognized or supported on dso. It was just a really, uh it was nice to have the data show, uh, and really reflect what we’ve been hearing anecdotally through focus groups and interviews around the country,

[00:22:59.54] spk_1:
You mentioned three organizations that have contributed to this work. One of them was bridge span. And then what were the other to save them. Save them a little slower theater, too.

[00:23:03.21] spk_0:
Sure. So a few months ago, bridge span and echoing green partnered on a report that looked at the going echoing green,

[00:23:14.57] spk_1:
echoing green

[00:24:50.44] spk_0:
green. Yeah, they partnered toe look at the funding that had accrued to organization organizational leaders who had gone through echoing Green’s programs. And so they were able to then really track and demonstrate that black leaders compared toa white leaders who had gone through the same kind of leadership development programs were getting very different levels of financial support on So that report came out at, you know, the earlier in the spring and last winter, an organization called Absi, which is the Organization for African Americans in philanthropy. On DSO, the acronym is a B E, and they put out a report looking at what they call the philanthropic redlining, this phenomenon of financial support from foundations accruing to white led organizations rather than to POC lead or black led organizations. So they use this terminology of redlining because it’s evocative of historical policy that led to very dramatic differences in terms of what sort of development and investment was possible, uh, in cities and neighborhoods based on this policy of redlining. And their point is that the imbalances, the inequities and where philanthropic dollars flow leads toa completely different prospects for organizations. And because some organizations grow because they get the funding and other organizations sort of. Whether on the bun

[00:25:06.34] spk_1:
isn’t the large majority of the smaller organizations I think you’re special was under a million dollars aren’t Isn’t the majority of those POC lead?

[00:25:08.44] spk_0:
It was, Yeah, it was striking to see that a much larger share of POC led organizations had budgets under a million

[00:25:30.34] spk_1:
dollars compared to, for instance, what led organizations? And, ah, large, large majority of those are a million dollars or under in funding or annual budget.

[00:25:31.18] spk_0:
Yes, okay, yeah, in terms of the annual budget

[00:26:27.24] spk_1:
annual budget. Okay, time for our last break. Dot drives drives engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives walks you through donor engagement. It’s a tool that’s simple, affordable and focuses you on building donor relationships and trust. There’s a free demo, and for listeners a free first month. Go to the listener landing page at tony dot Emma slash dot We’ve got but loads more time for POC, underrepresented in non profit leadership. And then the third main point is that d I. Efforts are widespread, you say, and their effectiveness is uncertain, I would say, but but their effectiveness is uncertain. You’re a little more optimistic. Um, so, yeah, we were scratching the surface of this before, but you know, say same or about what’s being done, but what the limitations of it are.

[00:26:35.74] spk_0:
Well, first off, I think it’s important to acknowledge that three quarters of the sample reported that their organizations were doing something related to diversity equity inclusion. And so the ubiquity of D I efforts is, you know, I think good. And I think it’s a relatively new phenomenon, right? Like it’s become the topic at a lot of conferences over the past five years. And so all of which is to say that like organizations are getting started right now, Um, and maybe it’s long overdue, but this is a moment when organizations are getting started. I think that the challenge, the frustration, particularly on the part of people of color. And the younger staff of, you know, diverse diversity of younger staff is that I think for far too often it feels like organizational checklist. It feels like a sort of double. Organizations are saying the right things, but not actually changing anything about their recruitment practices or internal hiring and promotion strategy. So, yeah, I think that that is the the frustrating in that, like the ubiquity does not equal impact.

[00:28:43.94] spk_1:
I just want to remind listeners the report is called Race to Lead Revisited and you can get it at building movement dot or ge. All right, Sean, how do you feel about talking? Oh, there’s there’s a quote. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You You pepper the report with quotes in the margin on Dhe there. Ah, lot of them struck me that. I’m just going to read one that was probably half a dozen or so that, you know, sort of stopped me a little bit. But, uh, Pakistani woman, I don’t believe I’m taking us seriously in the workplace because I am a young woman of color. I often question things which doesn’t always go over well in majority white organizations. I’ve been used as a token brown person that za harsh reality Thio Thio read and for her to admit in a survey that, you know, I’m a token. Um So I thought the quotes were very evocative.

[00:28:55.84] spk_0:
Well, yeah, thanks. I mean, we we really think it’s important to balance the quantitative data with, you know, hundreds upon hundreds of right and responses from survey respondents and then also the focus groups that we do. We also gain a ton of insights from those conversations as well.

[00:29:16.34] spk_1:
You feel OK, go into the five opportunities or is there Is there mawr anything more you wanna bring out about the the report itself? Well, this is part of the report, but about the conclusions, conclusions and findings.

[00:29:40.34] spk_0:
Well, I guess I would just add in terms of the sort of d I and, uh, there’s the both the skepticism, but also the impact, right? I think that, um, there’s, you know, I think there’s a lot of skepticism about training, often times. But our data did show that for reserving respondents that reported that their organization trained on a variety of topics. They had more positive views on the impact of training on their organization. I think that just speaks to the importance and need for organizations have, like, multifaceted well around D. I initiatives so that training is not again, like just the check box on or sort of like. Okay, we did the training on white privilege, and so we’re sort of done that the training is a way of both sparking but also sustaining critical conversations in organizations. And that’s why it’s useful for organizations to do training repeatedly and on a variety of topics.

[00:30:59.64] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it was. It was forearm. Or if organizations had had training on four or more topics than both white, the white respondents and the people, people of color respondents, um, felt it was it was more advantageous. So they got there was more valuable training than if it was three or fewer. Could you just take off a couple of different topics that that folks should be looking to training? I mean, not not exhaustive, but you know, what are some of the some of the topics that people should be thinking about training wise?

[00:31:07.27] spk_0:
Sure, yeah. So eso in terms of the topics that we tested for in the survey people indicated that whether the organization had done training on white privileged, specifically whether they had done training on implicit bias because that is a concept that I think has gained mawr currency in the sector. Structural racism, for instance. Um, like do people think of racism as just about interpersonal dynamics or as or as the result of structural, um, and systemic forces that are being replicated by policy? A. ZX well, as implicitly, um, also racial trauma and healing. I think it’s a training topic that is becoming more popular and developed, so there’s a variety of topics, and I think the important thing is just for organizations to be open to having and doing training on a wide variety of topics.

[00:32:07.74] spk_1:
And again, the more topics, the more valuable people will feel. Three outcomes are, um So let’s go to the opportunities. Then why don’t you once you start us off?

[00:32:19.04] spk_0:

[00:32:20.17] spk_1:
I’m sure. Wait. I put you on the spot. Do you know that you may not have him off the top of your head? I have notes I haven’t written down, so I don’t need thio Put you on the spot memorized? I don’t know do you?

[00:32:32.07] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve got it.

[00:32:33.81] spk_1:
Okay. Okay.

[00:32:47.44] spk_0:
First in the first one was focused on structures as well as the experiences of staff. Right on DSO. You know, I think it’s pretty straightforward, but I think the the reason that we felt felt like it was really important toe lift up lived experience of staff working in organizations is because of what we saw in terms of those experience questions, right? Like, do people feel they have a voice in their organizations or not? Right. We also thought it was important to point out that policies have to actually be in force, right? Like organizations can’t just say this is our policy. But if people don’t see evidence that actual behavior and practices air changing as a result of the policy, um, then you know, I think there are real questions about whether that has real impact.

[00:33:22.08] spk_1:
There is, as

[00:33:23.32] spk_0:
we said earlier,

[00:33:35.84] spk_1:
you’re not walking the talk. Then if you have ah, policy on anti discrimination and someone says something derogatory and it doesn’t get dealt with according to the policy. Yeah, that’s a joke. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:33:39.94] spk_0:
Um, we also thought it was important toe, you know, really, focus on the funding dynamics, so particularly for grantmaking organizations. But put your money where, like your mouth is essentially right. Like there are increasing number of foundations, that air saying that the I is important. Ah, nde sort of signaling to their grantees. But those organizations need to take d. I seriously need to diversify their boards and staff things like that. But if the foundations have not taken similar steps, if the foundations have not to diversify their own or internal institution, or the foundations have not sort of critically examined their portfolio of grants like are there racial disparities in terms of what the amounts of funding, which organizations get access to funding that sort of thing? All of that is about foundations being very serious on reflect about being reflective in terms of their own commitments to D. I.

[00:35:24.04] spk_1:
And you have reflecting reflecting your community, which we touched on a little bit, that that was really striking, how you know it’s intuitive. I mean, I realized it, but to see the numbers of, um, Whitelighter organizations that are serving POC communities, eyes like two thirds or something, I think, um, it’s startling that leadership does not reflect the communities that they’re serving, and that includes the board. I mean, you you wanna have voices from the from the folks you’re serving contributing to your contributing to your you’re you’re major decisions a ZX the board should be doing

[00:35:28.54] spk_0:
Yeah, and again, like, as I said earlier, like, if organizations see the function of the board as about accountability as about setting the direction for the organization, then I think those organizations will see the need and value of having a board that is reflective of the community that’s being served. But if organizations have the sort of rationale for maintaining the board is to have access to people with wealth and connections, and there’s obvious reasons that organizations go that route. Then they’re going to stack. They’re bored with wealthy people in their communities on again because of racism. Those wealthy people are not likely to be people of color from the constituency that’s being served

[00:36:15.53] spk_1:
and your last one responsibility and results.

[00:36:26.79] spk_0:
Yeah, I think our sense was that organizations air pushed to track a lot of things nowadays and so, like what gets measured is often what then matters. And so our sense was that organizations should be very clear about what their commitments are going to be to race equity. And, um, you know, really track those commitments and then track the results of that come out of, like, what kind of organizational change strategies they pursue. And so, you know, if organizations they’re doing like an annual review or annual reports, are they reporting on their goals and objectives around race equity? That is one way to sort of ensure that organizations are staying on track on dhe, that its multiyear commitment

[00:37:13.58] spk_1:
it’s gonna take

[00:37:14.84] spk_0:
multiple years of change.

[00:37:38.03] spk_1:
Uh, you know, just pay attention. You can move the needle on things. If you start paying attention to them, you’re saying, if you measure it, you’ll you’ll you’ll be. You’ll be accountable to it. So high attention to it. If your If your statements say that you value racial equity, then measure it, hold yourself accountable and commit to those years of change.

[00:37:41.23] spk_0:
Yeah, and I think it’s even better if organizations do that. Make that accountability public, eso that they’re the sort of reporting is to their staff. It’s to their board. It’s to their community so that, like the statements of the organizations stand with. For instance, black lives matter, then backed up with organizations being able to say. And here’s how we lived into that commitment. Here are the things that we did over the past year that made that riel,

[00:38:10.82] spk_1:
Sean, anything, anything at all that we didn’t cover that you want to talk about.

[00:38:16.52] spk_0:
Um, no, I think we covered a lot.

[00:38:34.22] spk_1:
Okay, well, we did. You know, it’s not profit radio. We cover a lot of ground, but, you know, we can only scratch the surface. I mean, we cover a lot, but what you want to read the details, So just get the damn thing. Uh, the report again is, um race toe lead racing. No race race, the lead race, the lead be visiting

[00:38:38.27] spk_0:
the lead revisited.

[00:38:49.92] spk_1:
Used to lead you visited. You’ll find it at building movement or GE. That’s where you’ll find building movement project. And Sean Thomas Bright felled. Who is co director, right, Sean, Thank you very much. Thank you.

[00:38:52.07] spk_0:
Thanks so much for having me

[00:39:32.72] spk_1:
absolutely appreciate your time. Thank you. Reminder were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives raise more money changed more lives. Tony dot Emma slash dot for a free demo and a free month, Our creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy. This music is by Scott Stein and with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for October 4, 2019: Beyond Local & Online To IRL

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Amy Sample Ward continues our convo and focuses on in real life community building. Drawing on NTEN‘s experience, she has strategies for growth and local empowerment, and shares resources. She’s our social media and technology contributor and NTEN’s CEO.



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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped for the diagnosis of trypanosomiasis if you infected me with the idea that you missed today’s show beyond local We’re talking about scaling your community. You want to go regional, national global, stay online or move to in real life. My guest from 19 and T. C is Emma Tony with social techno, and this is our last of the 30 to 19 ntcdinosaur views and online to i r l Amy Sample Ward continues our convo and focuses on in real life community building. Drawing on intense experience, she has strategies for growth and local empowerment and shares. Resource is she’s our social media and technology contributor and intends CEO Tony’s take two planned giving thievery responsive by witnessed e. P. A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software Denali fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non-profits your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO and here is beyond local. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 NTC. That’s the 19. That’s 2019 non-profit Technology Conference. We’re at the convention center in Portland, Oregon. All of our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue free fund-raising Tools for non-profits to help them make an impact. But I’m right now with Emma Tony. She’s a marketing manager at social techno and, uh, welcome, Emma. Thank you. Thank you, Tony. Does it have you? Andi, your topic is creating global communities online and in real life. So we’re talking about scaling groups. So you might have a local group. Might be a tech group. Might be a healthcare group for chess playing or dog walking. I don’t know. You have a community, local community somewhere. And we’re talking about scaling that you might not go global, but maybe you’ll go statewide from town or national to st. You wantto You wanna help us do that? Yeah, s o in Texas. We are actually a global community. So we round in Italy, as social tech knows essential enterprise. The text of global Network program. So actually we are. We have been scaled by a tech soup and precisely in, especially in Italy, we have different kind off communities. We are building up in the third sector. Um, for example, we gather people from different sector. We didn’t the non-profit one that help and we enable collaboration and relationship with between these kind of people. And we help to connect this people with other organizations abroad. So we really believe in the power off connecting people around the world. And we do this via, for example, train activities or out of events we do in Italy as well as in the Europe will get a chance to dive into the details. But you’re doing this both online and in real life. Yeah. Where you based in Italy were busy. Milan, You’re in Milan. I have spent a little time there. I flew in and out of that. Malpensa is the airport. Yeah, but I’ve spent a couple nights in Milan. I know, but I’ve been to really I’ve been totally five times. Uh, from Rome. Naples, way down South Georgia. Toto, which is in Calabria, of course. Vonette Cia, Forenza Bland Palermo. Ging quit arika. Yeah. Come back, durney. I have I will again. But I have been back many times. There are other places to visit to after I think they have to be more egalitarian about my my international travel. You spread it out a bit. Um Okay, So, um, how do we get started? I suppose we let’s ah, let’s say because more likely for our listeners, Aaron Small and midsize non-profits. So it’s more likely that there let’s say their local or they might be statewide and they want to go from they want to go to statewide if their local or national you know, if they’re if they’re statewide, how do we How do we get started? We have this ambition. Now what do we have? How do we channel our ambition? Thio, meet our goal to be statewide national. I would say Let’s start from your mission. If your mission is, um is strong enough and it’s it’s scalable. Let’s say so. If you have a mission that could be actually spread it around the world. So stuff from that and ask yourself what’s the best? The best way to scale this mission around the world. For example, in tech soup, we do have the mission off building a bridge between no profits and the technology and to empower non-profits in the use of technology with air. Well, they’re on a mission. So beginning from these, the statement we were like, What’s the best play to the best way to, you know, to do these two actual to deliver these mission around the world is to be partner off local s social enterprises around the word. So actually, the Texas back-up program is round by social enterprises. Locally, look for look for local partners. Exactly. Get started. Exactly. So our claim is they need these global and so we are. So they need is the need for technology and the use off a technology from the non-profit secretaries is something that it’s global, but only the local enterprises, Maybe they do have that knowledge about the non-profit locally, that is, that enables the tax up to, uh to run their their mission locally. Okay, so they have the knowledge off the territory, the knowledge off the third sector in the nation. So this is the model that we use. So think about the mission and the better as well. The business model that can fit. Because, of course, there’s gonna be local expertise. Yeah, you know your scale. It’s it’s expertise in a in a nation, my example. It’s local. It’s expertise a little broader in your state or in other states, um helps to have that buy-in and on dat knowledge of culture then and also because you’re your topic and we’re talking about in real life. So ultimately, we want to get not just from online communities. We want we want to be meeting face to face. And if you have local partners, you’ll have maybe some brick and mortar. Or at least you know where you can gather. You know you’ll have those local contacts. Yeah, for example, we do have a known online platform that we share with the older partners off tax, which are more than 70 in 230 plus countries in the world. So we have this platform in common, but actually, when it comes to real life, we really rely on the initiative of the single partner in the nation. So, for example, in Italy, we do a lot off local events around around Italy to help non-profits to get access to the technology as well as food and wine events. Absolutely absolutely Happy hour thing. Part off the key important meeting in the morning after hours. Exactly Good. Yeah, it’s a good way to networking actions, so you need in person over food and drink. It’s time for a break. Witness C P. A’s They had a wagon are on September 25th. It was exempt or nonexempt. Forget it. You missed it. But you do know that you still need to classify your employees correctly. So don’t worry. You got nothing to worry about because you watch the archive. You goto Wagner cps dot com Click Resource is and recorded events that simple. Now let’s go back to beyond Local Let’s see what else we talked about flexible of programs, programs that adjust to the local culture. How do you, um, how do you think about that? And you met you make those adjustments and have that kind of flexibility. When you’re you’re a global organization, you’re there. So there is an umbrella organization. There’s gotta be some structure, but you want to be flexible enough to accommodate other other cultures to how do you balance those? Yeah, for example, tech soup. Global rounds tax, of course, is mainly online. So and we decided to go for these models. So we do provide courses online, but as well as in person. So because in Italy will are a small country, right. So we have the possibility off also for the location where we are small, small, but beautiful. Exactly. So we are the capability to reach out to people, to gather people in a room and to deliver workshops and also in tailor made courses and train activities in house like we go to the non-profit and we hold workshops on their premises. So, you know, disease are kind off. Um, this is the way we scaled program, which is international, about the courses. And we adjusted to the specific reality off the Italian lorts sector. Now, tech soup also needs to manage language language barriers. Now, in my example, we’re not gonna have language barriers, Although somebody from the north might not understand someone from the South. But that’s more mindset, I think, than language and language. But in your case, how do you overcome barriers of language for an international organization? So we partners off tax super. We have the zoning platform where we all work together in on. Actually, the off course. English is key to collaborate, but also all the materials, the tool kids, the marketing materials as well that we share our translator localized by the single partner. Also because, um, it’s not not not only a matter off translating the words, it’s some better off finding the right communication words for your audience. Because if you talk about, for example, digital transformation, you have to, ah, took with the words off your audience. So it’s not only a matter off translating from English, it’s a matter off getting the same wavelength off your audience. So it’s on this kind of work. Okay, okay. So well, there again, you have your local partners think valuable for that. Um, so tech soup has, uh, they have their social events as well? A CZ. You want to keep it social too? I mean, aside from the learning the learning environments, do you have just purely social events as well? Is that valuable? Yeah. In Italy, we do a lot off local events with our donor partners, For example, you know, Google Airbnb. Microsoft s so big brands, Um, and the in-kind off events locally that we we host our training activities mainly. So we have we Our mission is to build capacity and digital competences your sector. So we do. Do you have some social events also that are not training oriented? Just pure social? Um, yeah. Networking events with some began NGOs are ampules in the in Italy yet, you know, to spread the voice about tax soup to build strategic partnership and relationships with some non-profit organizations in the territory s Oh, yeah. We do have also live events on Facebook as well, because it’s a It’s a community, which, where, um, that it’s built on online and offline. Is there also? Ah, you know, people Facebook. Facebook is annoying. A lot of people I see, I actually see. I see a lot of people moving to zoom video over Facebook live. I’ve done that myself. But I’m not just using myself as an example. You got the idea from a lot of other people. Okay, Who? I’ve, um I just I just see getting away from Facebook live. I’m invited to fewer Facebook live events, and I’ve been invited to more zoom events in the in the past year than had been in previous years. Yeah, this is a good example off and not a scalable tool. Because if I if I you would do ah Azuma event in Italy, they wouldn’t understand even what zoom is maybe no. So they must use use the tool for prom M peels in Italy are eyes facebook. So you need to ask yourself, Where is my audience? You’re internationally. Zoom is not exactly so. You need to ask yourself Where is these? May be a great idea. Maybe we do use, for example, tools that are not used by at the other impurities in Italy. But not because we are enthusiastic about the tool is that means that it’s used from from Iran. So I really have to be humbled to ask yourself, Where is my union’s? Am I willing to reach out to them where they are, where they’re very good point? Yeah, you’re right. Zoom is not international. And Facebook. Facebook is a big advocate of zoom. Yeah, but absolutely right. Good point. Thank you. Um, you also made another point about corporate sponsorships. If you’re going abroad or you’re just going beyond your own communities. I’ve been saying, um there may be a sponsorship opportunities for for your events in the places where you’re expanding too. Yeah. Could you mentioned Airbnb and, uh, Microsoft? Yeah. Or, for example, with Amazon web services. We did our road show, which is actually international. So we started over in in Italy. It’s basically our train activity about all the services off Amazon for the non-profits. Um, so we started in Italy, and they got enthusiast about this this kind of event. So they scaled in the UK and in Australia working alongside with the local Texas partners. So this is on. This is a good chance to get funding for, for an event, get the non-profit trained about that digital tools and make everyone happy. Another possibility. Overlap between doing international work and maybe and going national is time zones. How do you How do you overcome internationally? You can have 12 hours difference, but nationally, you know, if you just if you’re going from your state to the country just three hours difference, but that can That can make a difference. How do you What’s your advice for overcoming time zone differences, We plan ahead. So if we have to work with the U. S colleagues, for example, we plan Thio, you know, to make the actions Radi before you know the time zones. Um so actually, we we use a lot off tools for project management. A share with the colleagues. Ah, lot off. You know, also teamwork, um, tools that help us to keep up to date with the medical leagues. So, yeah, we really rely on these kind of tools, like slack or yeah, So we leave that. Okay? Yeah. I live on a little more about having things ready in advance. What do you mean, there? Eso? Because we have a lot off that lines, for example, for launching a new product for launching a new program which is international. So we are alerted by the US colleagues, and then we plan ahead or our actions so that when they when they say we go live on this day, we are already we are ready to be to be live. Um, you talk some about threats of closing civic spaces. I don’t know if that could happen in the U. S. It seems like anything could happen these days, so I’m not gonna discount that possibility. What? What? One of the problems there first. Before you get to what? What you do too, to try to help prevent that. But what problems do you have about closing of civic spaces? Um, we don’t have these big issue in Italy, to be honest, but we are experiencing Ah, great reform off the off the third sector, which is like shrinking the power off non-profit toe, make a greater social impact in terms off hyre toe toe, make the, for example, some restrictions, some fines as well a taxation. They are getting higher and higher. So you know these These are little adjustments to the low that actually prevent ah, no profits to have the freedom to act finds for what? For purposes finds for what reason? Because And the main finishes suppression. What’s the What’s the reason? Yeah, The main issue is they want to get rid off the little organization that the head doesn’t have, ah, social impact. So the little months made up off 1 to 2 people, they want to structure them as an enterprise or as our structure impute so they don’t want to have a long tail off the sort of sector, saying that there are billions off non-profits that they have just the label. But they don’t do actually something impactful. Back-up uh, what’s telling What’s the reaction among the third sector in Italy? Thio. Making operations more efficient? What’s the reaction? There is a lot of buzz. Ah, and also they are forced to publish, like a balance sheet off their activities and our social impact kind of assessment. So we expect super. We’re trying to help them to a bill this kindof assessment off their activities to be published online. There is a really a blurriness around this topic in Italy now because the reform is not published like formally now. So we’re still waiting for, you know, news and updates from the government. So this is a government agency that would yeah, coordinating all this data elearning on deciding which organizations can continue non-profits and which have to be enterprises incorporated as enterprising. And it’s becoming also like a requirement to be, um, at a certain point, digital s o. They are calling the third sector to be digital transformed, you know, So because this is our kind off our requirements from the low so way are trying to, you know, work with work week with the no profits toe. Get them trained. Is that Is that a change that could be legislated? Cannot be Yes. We all should be using technology smartly. It makes us more productive. But is that is that a change that could be give you created by government? Fiat Yeah. Okay, I get to I give you Ah little example. For example, now in Italy, it’s ah, it’s a low to make the voicing Onley digitally and Elektronik Lee so can’t have paper invoice anymore. No, no, no, no. For commercial. This is for companies also not just for the company itself, for from the small medium and large enterprises. So if your name Asmal our medium impose, you have to be ready for the electronic invoicing. So this is a trick, right? So you if you don’t have some digital skills or technology competences, you’re not ready to deliver the service. So this is an example Floor Yeah, s So what is the little what? What is the little, uh, a little past each area? How did they How did they take of the fruit flavored order on the corner. How did they How did they comply with this? I’m not sure they are involved in this kind of legislation, but for sure, the medium big M peels and enterprises are, for example, we as a social enterprise. We do deliver Elektronik invoicing now. Well, yeah, next to tech soup can I’m worried about All right, So you’re not so smart s o. So maybe it’s not the smallest businesses, or they are like, I suppose you just have three or four people. Family, family? Uh, yeah, family business on the corner. Uh, they are they covered by this way are 10 to 15 people in Texas, Italy. But we are, um, coping with, ah, lot off appeals. And we have the, you know, the donation program and the all the services. So we are absolutely involved in this in-kind off legislation because smaller non-profits are encompassed by that. Okay. Uh, no, you’re very interesting. He’s from the word. Pardon me news from from either in the world. Do we still have another five minutes or so together? What? What else? What else would you like to share on this topic? that we haven’t talked about yet. Um, for example, I’d like to share the fact that I would like to scale this kind of vivendi and 10 in Italy. Son was wondering if it’s feasible, actually, because it would be really interesting for the third sector in Italy to have this kind off initiative. And so, yeah, you doctor and 10 about that. Not yet. I knew some some off the text Super advisory board. The stuff easy involved in the intent is helping. Intend to plan this out? S Oh, yeah. Let’s see. Let’s see. I went to a I went to a fund-raising conference in Italy. I spoke at a fund-raising conference. Um, it was, uh, first of all, it was festival del fund-raising. Wow. Do you know it is their most probably five years ago or so? What’s the name of the man who runs the radio? Dellaccio Melinda. Melinda. You know Valerio durney? Well, he was teaching a columbia for a couple of years. Is he’s busy back home in Italy now, or Yeah, New York. No, no, no. He’s anything. You know, I met him when he was teaching at Columbia. Yeah. Valerio invited me Valerio. Melinda? Yeah, like this. We have friends. So he he holds a really interesting event about fund-raising. So we have the first of all. Yeah. Yeah. Still seal were sponsor off the this kind of event of sex of Italy. And also, we were trying to do the same four months off land about but about technology, so it would be really interesting. Okay, so there will be a intend Italy. So you know that I would come, I would come and I could talk about podcasting. Yeah, I heard there was a very popular podcasting workshop here. I could do a podcast in workshop there. Have how to start a podcast. I could actually. Oh, yeah. At the festival del fund-raising. I was talking about my other work, which is planned. E-giving. It’s a It’s a form plane. Giving fund-raising would Wouldn’t Wouldn’t be good for a tech soup. Confident I could totally do my other. My other friend in Italy is, uh, where this goes way back. My first trip in Italy. His name was Mario Bootsy. He’s not You don’t know Mario, but he’s from Milano, actually is from Wow. But But this was my first trip to Italy was in 1990. Notes. I graduated from law school. Was that 19 2098? No. When did I graduate from law school? In 1989 to 92? I graduate in 1992 So let’s go back to 1992. You were very young. Then Mario, Bootsy and I met. We were sitting next to each other at the We were there to see Aida at the Baths of Caracalla in Roma. So he’s a He was a bartender. He was a bartender in Milano, but he was on. It was August. He was a foregone stow the August vacation time. I’m not saying that for you listeners, you don’t know if argast Oh, is. It was for a ghost. Oh, so he was on vacation in in Roma. Um, I bought a ticket there, Aida at the Baths of Caracalla, which, of course, operated live operating room. It was a four or five hour production. There were live animal, there were camels and tigers and well, it’s the desert. Maybe the Warren Tigers. But whatever, there were camels. There were camels on the stage and Mario boats and and there were two intermissions because it’s so long. Mario Boats and I I spoke just a little bit of Italian poker, and he spoke even less English. But he and I carried on so well during the intermission, we had drinks together and then we walked back. He we left and we walked back. I walked back to my stay Attila pin pin Cioni on, uh, he was going back to wherever he was staying in Rome for his vacation time, but we got along famously for well, like a five hour production in another hour and 1/2. Walker’s because a long walk And I thought, You know, if the two of us Me and Mario Booty the new law student, the new law grad from I’ve been to law school through law grad from the U. S. And the bartender from Milano and we could get together this way and neither one of us has treyz translators. I thought, you know what a way to bridge differences over over Aida Karnak Ala was created because of me. Then community and I, we were in touch for a while, and then we’ve fallen out of touch instead. But But I still number his name? Mario. Bootsy. You have to come back. Oh, I’ve been okay. All right. I guess usually I let my guests wrap up, but I just Did you take the last few minutes encourage boards of encouragement? Um, stimulation, You know, what would you like to close with? Um, I would like to to tell to older non-profit sector around the world to be courage enough to take all the, um, their mission and their competences within the organization to strive to do the best to make our social impact, which is, ah, related to their territory specifically. And don’t forget to death globally and go global. All right. She is Emma Tony, marketing manager at Social Techno. And you are with Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 2019 ntcdinosaur profit Technology Conference. Emma, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, darling. Thank you, listeners. Very, very gracious. And all our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks for being with us. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for non-profits. Simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your accounting software? Have you got accounting software? You’re not still using Excel spreadsheets? I hope not. Please don’t tell me that. Cougar Mountain. If you’re in any of those situations where you can’t say yes to all those things or you’re still using spreadsheets, check out Cougar Mountain. They have a free 60 day trial. You’ll find that you know where on the listener landing page at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now, Time for Tony. Take two. I was accused of being a thief. Um, this was by a niece years ago who did not trust me with her aunts Jewelry. This is back when I was a nem ploy e a director of planned e-giving. What she said to me was just incredible. Um, she was, uh, she was trying to ask. She’s actually trying to curry favor with me because she wanted me to reduce the university’s interest. I was working at the University of the time, interest in an estate, and she was a beneficiary of the state. So if if I was willing to accept less for the university, she would have got more um it doesn’t work that way, but she didn’t understand that on dumb. Amazing. So she went so far as to accuse me of being a thief. And you just have to check out the video. Thio, Hear the full story? That’s with Peter Heller. He hosted me on Heller Consulting Group Video. Siri’s. You’ll find the video, though, on my site at tony martignetti dot com. And that is Tony. Take two. Let’s do the live love. It’s gotta go out If you’re listening live The love goes out to you wherever you are If you’re in New York, New York if you’re in Beijing Uh, who else checks infrequently? Oh, of course. Bangalore, India. We’ve heard from recently, uh, California. Often checking in, um, New Jersey, Yes, North Carolina. Wherever you are listening live The love goes out to you. So glad you’re with us. And the podcast Pleasantries. You gotta have it. Can’t If you’re gonna live us in love, You got a podcast. Pleasantries. You can’t have one without the other. So the pleasantries go out too. That’s where the vast majority of our audience those over 13,000 people listening each and every week. Amazing it really is amazing. I don’t know. Sometimes I wonder why Why you stick with this? But I know you’re not leaving because it’s good value. That’s why. So the podcast Pleasantries going out. Thank you for being with us at whatever time you listen. However, we fit into your weekly or monthly podcast scheduling pleasantries to you. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Amy Sample Ward. You know Amy Sample word. She’s our social media and technology contributor and CEO of inten. Her most recent co authored book is Social Change Anytime, Everywhere about online multi-channel engagement. She’s that Amy Sample War Dot or GE And at Amy R. S. Ward. They are, of course, for Renee. How are you? Any simple word? I’m good. I’m good. How are you? I’m doing very well, Thank you. Glad you’re with us. Back. Back with us. Yes, I It is always fun. OK, good, very state that very clearly so very clearly and emphatically. So it must be unless there’s somebody twisting your arm to say, Say, fun, tell him it’s fun, but it’s not because you’re in. You’re in Oregon and I’m in New York, so it’s not me doing that it must be someone else. Um, well, no. I do wish that we could coordinate for on in person, not at the NTC. Like back in New York in the studio recording for one of these? Yeah, You missed getting to go because it feels so much more official than just talking to you on the phone right now. You know, they’re with headphones on and a big microphone. That’s like, the proper way to do it. Yes, you do. Yeah. Andi, we’re in a new studio where two studios from the last duty or you were in with me. We’re not now. Yeah, we’re in a new studio. Just Ah, just a couple weeks. But this is my first recording in the new studio and tomorrow’s show we’re recording on Thursday. Of course, tomorrow’s show will be the very first, very first full show in the studio, so Yeah, well, when you’re in New York, you let me know and we’ll we’ll do our best to work it out. Okay, I will. Okay. In the meantime, let’s talk, uh, trans nationally, Um, and, uh, Emma. Emma, Tony was just talking about my burning my burning question. From what she said, Is there gonna be on ntcdinosaur Lee because she wants one? Well, I appreciate that He does. And I appreciate this is so important to you that you consider it a burning question myself. Course. Didn’t you clearly want to go back to Italy? I would look exactly, exactly right. Fund-raising present involved. L fund-raising was wonderful. Is there gonna be in it will be an NTC, which she called in 10. But we know everybody does that, but she means ntcdinosaur Is it gonna be one in Italy? 2020 2021. Uh, well, we have plenty of NTC contracts for 2021 22 contracting 23 right now and 24 later this year. All of those locations are in the continental U. S. And 10 you know, has a office in Portland. So we as staff, are always trying to petition Andrea unconference director to let us go to Hawaii for NBC. We haven’t done that quite yet. We haven’t. We haven’t won her over. You know, we do get a number of folks request stains, even if it isn’t the NTC as the NTC. But at least requesting that N 10 convene events in other parts of the world and that the US is super awesome. It’s great that people really trust and enjoy the events that we put on at this point. You know, we have kind of a two sided coin to this for the NTC. It just has not made sense for our mission and our Gail and how many staff we have to try and go outside the U. S. For our other programs where they’re delivered online. And that is definitely something that folks do actively participate in from all over the world. We have folks who gotten their professional certificates from us, for example from, um, Switzerland and Canada and the all over. So we know that those programs are easier for us to scale in that way. But the NTC hasn’t yet. However, I and other staff often support convenience elsewhere. Whether we’re on, you know, planning teams are we helped recruit speakers or we ourselves travel there to speak. So the end 10 the in tennis that we can contain as individuals gets to go to other places. But so far on the docket, there is not an empty seat. Aly and very sorry. Okay, I understand. This is this is why you’re a CEO. So so diplomatic and eloquent. If somebody asked me that question and I was in your job well, first of all, I would never get hired. I could never be a jump. But assuming I was in some hypothetical world, my answer would be No, no, no, no. Plan to go to Italy. We’re not. You know, it’s We normally have around 20 countries outside the U. S. Represented at the MTC, and we often prioritized some portion of our scholarships for international participants because we know that the cost burden for them to come from very far away is so much higher than folks within the continental U. S. So we we recognize and really appreciate that there is a really international community for intent. It isn’t just us spoke, of course. Um, yeah. Okay. So, so diplomatic. So you know that I’ve ever been called, Have Now you have now. Yeah, I I’m gonna yet save this recording, and I think I’m beautified. I know you pretty well. You know what? We’ll talk every week, but I think I know you fairly well. I think your diplomatic. Yeah, I’m Bonified. My opinion destroyed already. Um, so related to the end. 10 work, of course, is Ah, a big part of the intern. Work is local real time events that you have scaled throughout the country, and I think even aren’t you Also is there Aren’t there in 10 events in in London, too? Yeah, they’re in 10 events. In-kind the U S or international. Exactly. So, yeah, that’s our That’s our topic. Um, what do we, uh, What’s what’s your What are your thoughts on what you heard? And yeah, I mean things that I was talking about that Not that I don’t think she doesn’t agree. Just that you two didn’t get into details. And now I get the benefit of going of going. Second is the idea about localizing that content, you know, making it you’re talking about, like not just translating from English to another language, but really making sure it’s relevant to folks in that area and something that we’ve found a lot is you can’t You can’t say toe a whole network of local groups, right? Like tomorrow we’re talking about this topic because even the topic isn’t gonna be relevant in every single space. Right? Or the way folks talk about that topic may be very different. And I’m sure you experienced this in fundrasing work to write, like, some people are going to call a certain thing by a different term. And if you tell everybody this is the term we’re using, there’s going to be certain pockets of the community that just don’t even care because they don’t realize you’re talking about the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, terms, um, and just sensibilities. You know how you would go about fund-raising in one part of the country is very different than how you might do it in the Northeast, where people are often considered brash and too forward has to be more genteel in other parts of the country, like Midwest. I’m thinking probably south to I haven’t worked there, but yeah, absolutely. So, um yeah, that Andi, you’re right. We do. We sort of just touched on that, But the local sensibilities and that’s the advantage of local partnerships. I mean, you need to you need to rely on them as much as they’re relying on you for some support, right? And I think that kind of relationship and roll piece is what makes her brakes programs like this right. Organizations see themselves as having the role of making decisions, letting all of those folks on the ground know what the decision is and they’re there to implement it. That’s not motivating for them, but also it’s not going to be reflective of those local communities, right. So organizations already doing this type of work or trying to move towards this type of work really need to recognize that their role is meant to be the aggregator of what’s happening those groups and not the decider of what happened in those groups. Of course, that’s not to say, like all of your community groups can just run amok and do whatever they want Theirs, of course guidelines and hopefully lots of shared values and principles and purpose to why these groups are meeting and really focusing on that shared purpose will make sure the topics they bring up for what they want to d’oh with their group kind of stays in the right realm. But it then gets to be in their control and as the organization you’re there to aggregate it lifted back-up make sure it’s profiled, and that even goes, as far as you know, talking about tools. And I would love to hear your take. I know you were talking a little bit with them about Facebook live. I also have seen far fewer Facebook live. Um, invite your organizations using that, Um, so we can talk about that in a second, but just along the same lines as an organization, it’s not gonna work. If you tell everything, will group. You have to use the book live for your event because there’s gonna be groups that maybe are really small and only have a few people, and none of them know how to do that. And it’s better that that group is meeting than that group is trying to spend their time figuring out how to broadcast their meetings. Right? So not saying every single person, regardless of your location and contacts and topic, needs to use Facebook lives. But, hey, if you want to and you are able to stream, here are a few different tools. You know, you mentioned Zoom, for example, something that we do it intended. We say you get to use and 10 zoom account right like you don’t even need to try and pay for it or figure it out. We will just let you log in and host your event, right? So making it accessible and then folks can choose Oh, for us. Like we do know how to use Zoom. We know how this works. We’re going to do it. And another group could use Facebook live. Another group doesn’t have to use anything, you know, And recognizing that that means as the organization, you’re not going to get to see the event on dhe. They not every single group on your Web site is gonna have a little video link, and that has to be okay, right? There has to be, um, expectation that not every single group is gonna look exactly the same. It’s gonna have all the same content gonna have all of the same outlets and that that doesn’t mean the program isn’t successful, right? No, it’s not very hard because we’re used to having, like, a very perfect spreadsheet that says, like, Yes, yes, yes. All these groups did this, right? So having all the groups have different way they operate, makes it harder to evaluate. And that’s our problem is the organization. It’s not the program’s problem. Yeah, Yeah. Excellent. Okay. You raised a couple things. Uh, we’re gonna that we’re about to take a break. But I see an analogy with this in years ago when we used to talk about should should the community allow public Facebook comments, you know, are in any of the public networks I see in an analog to that. And then also, I want to talk some more about what kind of support a lot of the larger organization can offer. Thio local whatever they’re called. Chapters, affiliates groups, however, but we got to take this. Take this break, all right? It’s our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories and build support for your work. You can count on them. This is what they do. Media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them a turn hyphen to dot ceo. I’ve got butt loads more time with Amy Sample Ward. So yes. So I see. I see this analogy to I guess it was eight years ago or something? Whatever. Seven years ago, we’re talking about public comments. What if people say things that we don’t like? Um, you know, I’ve seen analogy out. There will be things we don’t like all day long, but the fear that you know, the fear going into this that it would be it would be anarchy. And, well, you know, uh, we won’t be ableto moderator. Should we Should we delete, you know, et cetera. So I sort of seeing an analogy to that. Those conversations we used to have back and I guess the dark days of social, the social networks. Well, you know, this might TF some of the conversation you want to have about resource ing, but I think the the biggest investment that organizations need to make in a program like this, where you’re gonna have distributed community groups of some sort, running some type of programming that you’re not present for is to invest in whoever those organizers are gonna be. The more they feel like an extension of the organization and actual leaders of this program, the more they’re going to feel comfortable and confident managing those types of reputational risk in person. on your behalf, right? If they feel like they’re just here to implement something and you know the organization sent them this saying that says Okay, go to here. Here’s the contact at the venue. We’ve already picked the venue. You didn’t even get to pick that, you know, And they’re showing up. Well, they’re not really filled with a bunch of responsibilities, right? So they’re not going to take it upon themselves to say, Hey like that we’re not having that conversation here. Or that’s not feedback that we’re having in this room, you know, whatever. But if you are really invested in them and building them up as the ambassadors and leaders of this program, they will be able to kind of carry that forward for you in person. And that’s the best safeguard you could build empowerment, empowerment you want. You want to empower your local leaders like and, as I was saying earlier, relying on them to but empowering them what, what some other kind of support. I mean, you mentioned a platform support. That’s that’s valuable, although, like you said, some groups might just want to meet. Maybe they only want to meet in real life. Maybe they’re tired of whatever they do or, you know, I mean, I think it’s also a good recognition that not all events format are great for streaming my right. Ah, an event that, you know, maybe in the summer, instead of having a speaker of the event. It’s a networking social. Nobody wants to be on video, just watching a bunch of people who were having to write. Recognizing that one piece of support we often find ourselves providing to Organizer’s is help this kind of mixing things up and having different formats and actually knowing, Ah, great deal about how you just put on events, right? So that we are a resource for them. Any time where they say, Okay, we don’t have a speaker lined up. Should we just cancel anything you don’t have to cancel? There’s lots of different event for months, but don’t have a featured speaker here, Like, you know, let’s open the kind of metaphorical binder and go through it together, right? So, being experts internally again, not so that you are prescribing, requiring the way that organizers do there that you are then, like the Event Planner Dictionary. For them, it’s super, super helpful and probably the number one thing that organizers in our programs like that call on us for all the time. The very first thing I thought of when you and Emma started talking with something that you and I have talked about a number of times, including, you know, insert. However many years ago, we first started doing these segments and that the if an organization is already taking the time to build up a program, why not build those resource is into tool kits and templates so that organizers don’t even have to bother emailing or calling you to ask for that help. Right? There’s a tool kit that says, Here are three event formats that don’t have a speaker, right? And they could just be like, Oh, phew! Okay, let’s choose one of these, you know, for next month. Since we don’t have a speaker. Whatever building up ready to use resource is is I mean, I could never recommend it enough. You’re already doing that work. You probably already built the template. You just keep it on your computer instead of putting it somewhere where all the organizer’s can access. Okay. Excellent. Yeah, right. the work is done. Just share it way, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we’ve talked about that in terms of identity. And, um what else? What else should be what? It zoho obvious that I can’t think of them. I don’t do this, but what else should be shared like that? Like like meeting temple? Well, yeah, that’s definitely like event formats and that kind of thing. Honestly, the things that we have, especially new Organizer’s folks who are just coming in into that role, but often times in a new city, right? Not that they’re new to that city, but it’s a new city for the program or our new location for the program. The things that they really really benefit from our templates for e mails because that’s where they get to start learning the tone and the personality of the program, right? They’re not expected to know that off the bat and be ableto, you know, send emails out to the local list and everything without just on their own, already knowing that giving them templates like, Hey, here’s the first message that you could send out that says, Hey, we’re starting a group and we want to do a survey of what folks want locally. Amglobal latto. Or here’s a email template for when you have an event scheduled in your, you know, sending it out to put on people calendars. And over time they’ll stop needing those things, but really just definitely something you already have. Right now we have every man we’ve ever sent, so just pull out some of those example. Emails kind of make them generic, right? Like in all caps, City name or whatever. But that’s a huge reverse that folks really have taken a man’s job in our program because it just saved them a lot of stress thinking they’re going to say the wrong thing on Dhe. We interpret that is them really caring right and wanting to make sure that they’re representing and 10 the best they can. And so we want to take that pressure off them and to say, Here are templates and it’s okay to use the gifts and, you know, do what you want to do, have fun with the group because that’s really how we want our kind of brand to be extended, and that takes a lot of pressure off. So basic emails events format and then things like, How do you find a venue and how do you get a local sponsor? Because oftentimes, at least in our experience and our programs, the folks who become organizers are there because they really love the people in the content of the meetings, not because they’re very experienced or even enjoy, like the hustle around town of like High. Will you give us $100 high? Will you donate some pizza? Hi. Can we meet in your office? You know, that’s not the fun part of organizing. And so tips and resource sheets that say, You know, many cities have these types of venues Coworking faces library e-giving them kind of ah, starter kit of where to look for reverses and venues is also really helpful. And we’ve found that’s one of the tools that folks organizer’s like to contribute back thio and add their ideas. So then the next time an organizer is looking at it also has ideas from from other organized. All right, all right. We met at the local museum, and it was fabulous, and they even included a brief tour of the collection and yeah, yeah, Okay. Yeah, learning from each other. Of course. Wonderful. Um, you mentioned Facebook live vs Zoom. And you wanted a want to flush that out a little more, I think. Yeah, I was just curious what you have, what? Your experience that has been. I know that you know that you did some tests with Facebook live? Yeah, it’s difficult. Yeah, I think the 1st 1 failed. Technically, technically. And I have an excellent social manager, Susan Chavez, who are happy to shout out. But there was some button radio, you know, some radio button wasn’t selected right or something. And the thing failed. Um, yeah. And and she knows what she’s doing. No, but yeah, she missed something in the back end. Set up Facebook. So I’m not not through with Facebook. Yeah, And then when we did do it, we did do a live segment. Um, it got some attention. It didn’t didn’t get as much as I would have liked, but some of that may be our own fault in, uh, doing sort of last. Well, maybe not last minute, Like the hour, but not allowing ourselves enough promotion time. That’s what I mean. And just and from the technical side. I much prefer Zoom. The damn thing is just so much easier. There aren’t a whole right. There isn’t a dozen radio buttons you have to configure correctly to get a get a live stream going. It’s all in the background. You pick a few things in settings and very few, and you could be up and running. And it has the auto invitation e mails. And I’m very impressed with Zoom. And you must be due because you said you offer it, use it and you offer it to local local groups for for nothing. Yeah, we’ve been using them. I mean, we used hang out. Um, Skype. We use lots of different things for lots of different purposes, you know? But, um, we just offer you some validation. We have the same experience with Facebook live. I think we tried it two or three times and basically every time failed. One of the time I stopped stopped in the middle of the video and we had to, like, log back in again even though it was broadcasting. So, you know, like maybe five people watched it. But riel reflection there is just like we were saying before. Really choosing the tool based on what you’re doing into the people are and sound like them is working for you. You know, for us we always feel like, you know, are we being so like dodgy by having these kind of boring community calls where we expect people to, like go to our website and say they’re coming and get a link and, you know, have it be kind of like a traditional webinar experience. But when we’ve done things like, you know, Facebook live and whatever else and they’ve been well promoted, there’s like five people there, but for our community calls where we’re doing them in our kind of traditional way of sending emails out and people go to the website and register that they want to come and log in at that very specific time. There’s, like 60 70 people on, so why I feel bad that that’s not working right and why try and go use some shiny Facebook tool that clearly doesn’t work. It’s not very sure it’s very tarnished by now. And if N. 10 which formerly had the word technology in its in its name, can’t figure this out and has a live stream stopping in the middle because of it. I think that that speaks a lot. And I also have seen I’ve been I’ve been invited recently to a lot more zoom events or just meetings just just one on one meetings or or three person meetings on Zoom. Then I have Facebook life. We just have. We have, like, a minute or so left before we have to end already. Um, what are the other recommended tools? Can you can you just take off a couple? Mmm, Other tools. You know something that we don’t know how much we’ve really talked about it, cause it’s not necessarily a social media tool, but it is something that we see the organizer’s really, really relying on. And that’s can va, you know, can yeah, can before for art. Yes, So, like a really lightweight version of photo shop. And what super helpful about it that also has social media templates. So, like these are the dimensions for a Facebook header image that you know all of those pieces. So for Organizer’s, it’s a super easy tool to use, you know, to like change up their promotional materials and make you know images to attach to their tweets to promote an event and that kind of thing. Can you Okay, I give you 30 seconds. Can you take off one more? One more. Quick. Good. Valuable resource. Mmm Mmm mmm. Oh, my gosh. Not under pressure. Uh, got it all graceful under pressure. You know, I think the other thing I was gonna add it’s not a technical tool, but is just a reminder is that you don’t need thio. Put all of the advice into practice because you have a very formalized, already launched program. It may just be that you wanna host across your city a bunch of house parties, right? All of these same kind of pieces of advice and tools and suggestions apply to that same contact, So don’t feel like the whole conversation was only for big international program. This is for anybody that’s trying to decentralize. You’re content in your work. Awesome. That’s a very, very apt ending. Thank you so much. Amy. Sample Ward Amy, Sample word dot or ge And at Amy Rs Ward. Always a pleasure. Thanks so much for sharing, Amy. Yeah, Thanks, Tony. Uh, my pleasure to so long. Next week, Jean Takagi will be with me for the hour on recruiting your board members. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com But cook a Mountain software Denali fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits 20 dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO A creative producers. Claire Meyer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows social Media is by Serbs and Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this cool music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great What you’re listening to the Talking Alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show yawned potential Live life your way on talk radio dot N Y c aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti, non-profit Radio Fridays 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? 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