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Nonprofit Radio for April 11, 2022: Measuring Equity


Danielle Fox, Ellonda Williams & Raj Aggarwal: Measuring Equity

We’re kicking off the 2022 Nonprofit Technology Conference (#22NTC) conversations, with a discussion of how equity can be incorporated into your nonprofit’s performance measurement. Sharing their collaboration are Danielle Fox at Union of Concerned Scientists, Ellonda Williams with B Lab and Rajneesh Aggarwal from Provoc.

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[00:02:45.84] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%,, I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I get slapped with a diagnosis of pollen, euro Maya’s itis. If you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show measuring equity, We’re kicking off the 2022 nonprofit technology conference conversations with a discussion of how equity can be incorporated into your nonprofits, performance measurement, sharing their collaboration are Danielle Fox at Union of concerned scientists. Alando Williams with the lab and Rajneesh Agarwal From provoke On Tony’s take two, you’re responsible for donor relationships. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is measuring equity. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 N T C. By now. You know what that is. You know that it’s the 2022 nonprofit technology conference, you know that it’s hosted by N 10 very smart savvy organization helping everyone use technology in their social change work. You know, all this. What you don’t know is that my guests now are Daniel Fox, Alando Williams and raj Aggarwal but now you do now you’re informed now, you know, as much as I do Daniel Fox is campaign and Science network manager at the Union of concerned scientists. Alando Williams is director of justice Equity, diversity and inclusion Jedi at B lab and raj aggarwal is president of provoke Daniel Ayalon garage welcome to nonprofit radio and and Farage welcome back. I hope I’m, I hope I’m as excited to have you back now uh, in half an hour or 45 minutes as I am now, Rogers already given me trouble before we even started recording. So I’ll have to check in with me every 15 minutes to see how my raj meter is is is jumping. Okay,

[00:02:47.88] spk_1:
what about what about my tony meter?

[00:03:07.24] spk_0:
It’s less important because that’s the relevance of that is raj Aggarwal. non profit radio that’s where you can measure your tony meter, but tony-martignetti non profit radio I can measure my raj meter anytime I want to. So pardon me, Yolanda,

[00:03:08.51] spk_2:
it’s House Rules,

[00:03:33.94] spk_0:
House Rules, House rules, get your own show essentially it was what my advice is to, to raj. Okay, let’s see, So let’s give everybody a chance to give a brief, let’s, you know, we’re not, you’re, you’re talking to an audience of 13,000 folks who are already in nonprofits. So you’re you’re likely not talking to potential donors, but for a little context please, you know, briefly Danielle, what’s the union of concerned scientists about?

[00:03:37.34] spk_3:
Sure. So the concern of concerned scientists is a science advocacy organization, essentially. We’re all about how do you put science and the scientific community to work for a better world. Uh, and that also means more just policies and political systems and so we’ll get into it a little bit soon but working with the justice and equity lens is fundamental for us to actually be able to fulfill our mission. Um And so that’s why I’m excited to talk about how we measure it.

[00:04:33.84] spk_0:
Thank you for supporting the work of scientists. Uh it’s especially now, but please thank you. You know, science scientists, they’re I think they’re not to be marginalized and and mocked there to be central to a central to a conversation and essential in a in a rational world. So thank you for doing that, Yolanda. Please tell us about B Lab

[00:05:26.14] spk_2:
you too. Yes. Um so the lab is a non profit network that transforms the global economy to benefit all people communities and planet. Basically what we do is really our vision is to create a collective vision of inclusive, equitable and regenerative economic economy. So we really come into organizations and businesses known as the corpse. Um and we certify them using our set of standards to really take a look at their organization. How are they treating them? How are they treating their community? How are they paying their staff? How do folks feel showing up as part of a member of that organization? And so collectively we have over 4000 dead corpse across the globe. Um and we all come together to really assess how to do things in a more um Jedi forward and equitable way with really um centering around economy and how do we change? How do we think about business

[00:05:29.74] spk_0:
is B lab the certifying like agency or not for for B corpse? It’s isn’t where folks apply for for for B corp status.

[00:05:41.24] spk_2:
You got it. That’s a really good question. So be lab, which is where I work. Um It’s part of our entire B lab global network. So we are movement. So be lab itself is the certifying body and that is where individuals kind of start um taking our basic impact assessment in terms of your organization to really assess how do you fare as it as it as it is against our current standards. Um and that kind of gets, gets your foot running in terms of getting certified to become a B corporation.

[00:06:20.24] spk_0:
Excellent. Alright, thank you raj. Tell us about provoke which is spelled P R O V O C. When I first met Roger, I thought it was provocative. He corrected me. Of course it’s provoked raj, Tell us about the the agency,

[00:06:29.74] spk_1:
thank you. tony So provoked is a brand, the narrative strategy and uh communications and campaign um firm that roots are that does their work through an ever deepening racial equity lens.

[00:07:08.94] spk_0:
All right, thank you all again for being here. Um Daniel. Let’s start with you. Oh well, I didn’t introduce the session topic which is can equity be measured lessons from a great collaboration Danielle. It seems that you’re the you’re the organization that was interested in as you said, Centering I guess you know, walking the walk now of uh justice equity, diversity, inclusion Jedi why why did that become important to you when whenever it did versus some other time.

[00:08:22.04] spk_3:
Yeah. Absolutely. Well I think it’s I think that the organization has had to do its own unlearning relearning and thinking about, you know, as we look at the political systems and systems of racism and injustice that we need to change how we do our work frankly and how we show up. Uh it’s a different definition of success if we’re going to be true to our mission and our stated values and so with that um we’ve tried to work hard and continue to continue to learn, continue to mess up, continue to make progress and continue to take steps forward. Uh, but the work that we did with provoke was specifically around our science network. So we have this network of about 25,000 scientists and technical experts that come to U. C. S. To say hey I want to grow as an advocate and get involved and put my skills to work for social and policy change now for us for us to truly be successful. That meant that we also needed to ground how we were organizing and cultivating scientists and researchers and putting their skills to work to rectify social wrongs. That includes fighting environmental racism. That includes addressing the disproportionate impacts of all the health and environmental hazards that are going unchecked that we’re trying to put science to work to help tackle. So at the end of the day, that is really what it’s about. I think we truly

[00:08:54.34] spk_2:

[00:09:42.84] spk_3:
you know better you have to do better, Right? So we needed to change how we define success. And one of the things that has been so fantastic is to see the power of scientists as authentic partners with communities most impacted by the issues we’re tackling. And so the initiative that we were working on is looking at how do we scale up the ability for scientists to join us and get active? And that was through building local teams. That’s a distributed network of now, more than 50 groups throughout the country who are getting involved, but we knew that we needed to hold ourselves accountable and learn deeply about what did it what did it mean to have inclusive teams and what did it mean to integrate a lens of justice and equity and how we did our advocate building and engagement. And so that’s where we teamed up with provoked for and that’s how we’re trying to um you know, put metrics and accountability to the progress and what we’re trying to do here.

[00:09:58.74] spk_0:
Okay. And I love when you know better you need to do better. Excellent. Um Yolanda, how did how does B lab fit into this collaboration?

[00:12:30.04] spk_2:
Well, there’s there’s a couple of different ways that we fit into this collaborate. So this particular collaboration uh was between um you know, as Danielle mentioned with garage um and collaborating, collaborating provoked provoked as a report. So the fun thing about that is that I worked really closely with other be corpse that are in this space. And so not only is provoked A B corp but provoke is a B corp that that works in the Jedi space that works in the equity space. And so we’re able to constantly um share learnings, share what we share what we um discovered in in our our dialogues and our policies and our practices and and from the results um of surveys and internal work that we’re doing. So we all always able to kind of like iron sharpens iron. Right? So I’m in good company um with provoking those over, over in that space to be able to think more about, okay if provoking the people up and we’re working with other organizations to really identify how do we show up what role does the lab have in that and how do we kind of take the ideas that are that are that we’re starting at the lab in this conversation while we’re trying to tackle eyes some of these critical challenges. These are global challenges. So um sharing learnings and adapting what we learned is really a way to uh drive the learning forward. And then these types of collaborations, we can learn what went well and a really fun thing is when I was even spoken speaking with Danielle like a lot of this stuff is the same thing. There’s a lot of similarities in this realm and I think what it does that drives the, the understanding that Jedi is everybody’s job, equity, bility is everybody’s job there. It doesn’t matter what your role is, right? I’m quote unquote an expert, I didn’t give myself that title, right. People see people in the space and we give each other these titles, but we’re all accountable to this work. We’re all accountable, we’re showing up differently and I love what Danielle said as well around when you know better, you do better because then that means that you have to think differently and so our session and when we talk about how do we measure, how do we measure equity? It really starts with asking ourselves a lot of questions, why are we doing this way? You know, why do we always do it this way? Who who, who are we thinking about? Who’s in the margins and in these intersections there is no one size fits all. So something that Danielle and and and their team might do might be very different. But in the learnings of what went well, what are the challenges, what, what, what we still need to elevate um is where we can all try to come together to identify solutions that are gonna be solutions that we all can, can, can use.

[00:12:42.41] spk_0:

[00:12:43.18] spk_2:

[00:13:34.14] spk_0:
now raj despite your, your pre recording admonition that I’m not turned to you too much. I promise. Trust me, trust me, I won’t, but I will at this point because you were the um I don’t know, maybe it’s not fair to say the catalyst, but you were the you were the, the, the helpers. That’s a great word, that that’s a sophisticated technical term. You were the you were the you were the drivers for the union of concerned scientists. So what should, what should nonprofits be thinking about? Like at the very early stages, what did you advise Danielle and her team, you know, at early stages to be, to be, I don’t know, assessing uh measuring or you know, given where they were at the time. You know, what was your advice at the earliest stages is what I’m trying to get at.

[00:16:02.34] spk_1:
Yeah, so first of all, um I just really appreciate Danielle and Yolanda and I learned so much from them all the time and just how we show up in partnership. So I was really taking this as an opportunity to learn from them. Um I appreciate the term catalyst and also with our work with the Union of concerned scientists, I was reminding the client just the other day that, you know, the term catalyst is a is a term and chemistry, which I actually have a degree in which I rarely use and the purpose of that is a catalyst is something that helps to reduce the activation energy of a chemical process. So, so it’s going to happen anyway. But hopefully through an intervention through hopefully our team, we can maybe get there a little bit quicker. That’s that’s what a catalyst does. So I’ll take it. Um um so you know, with with so obviously part of the reason that we participated in this work is we do a lot of work on equity. And often people ask this question, you know, because of just the nature of the world. Business capitalism is are we really getting there and how can we measure it? And how can we report on it? Um and that’s obviously really important to do that as well. And so some of the things that we asked, you know, for certain scientists to do was to really think critically about why they want to change the world, how they plan to turn that into reality and what best metrics represent that success. And so for example, sometimes we would hear language from um union of concerned scientists around things like high impact actions. And so we asked them to specify what is the list of those actions or underrepresented scientists. And then we asked them to get really specific about what does that mean race, economic status, gender identity, disability. And to amplify and support. And what does that mean? And one of the big things that came up in our session with uh N. T. C. Just last week is this idea of impact and how that’s been so much that comes up in nonprofits, but we don’t really define it. So this practice that really was a whole practice of definition and then determining what tools and measures you can go about doing it. And Danielle will talk to you also about like what has happened since they started doing this and where did it work? And where did it didn’t, where does subjectivity come into this? Because some of that, so many of these things are going to be subjective through how a person might perceive what they’re actually doing. Um, and it may not be measured by a specific number. So, um, that was, that’s just one thing in here. So what the union concerns scientists did was they established six key performance indicators and 15 supporting metrics to evaluate the growth of local engagement program across the US, um, including an equity specific KPI

[00:18:39.74] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Here’s the ways that they can help you media relations. You’ve heard me talk about this, that’s the relationships building those relationships with outlets like the chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times Market watch fast company Washington post. All places where turned to clients have gotten placements, content marketing. If you’re interested in white papers, Your annual report falls into that. You want them to do research for you. Maybe research on a program and then publish that research for you to share with donors, foundations. You know, other supporters research. They can do research for you and write about it. Speech writing, ghostwriting training on media management, media relations website. They can build website for you website creation redesign. I haven’t talked about that one. But yes they do that too. So all you know media relations, content management thought leadership web social media social marketing turn to communications, right? Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to measuring equity. Raj said this is all very subjective. I was thinking ethereal you know, but it’s it’s uh it’s it’s it’s hard to it’s hard to grasp however you you know how every whatever word you use to describe it. So Danielle, you know how did the U. C. S. Start to start to start to grasp it. You know, start, I mean eventually you end up with like raj said, you know, six KPI s and 15 supporting metrics, you know, whatever. But you know, how do you take that incrementally with this? Very subjective these very subjective concepts.

[00:21:57.84] spk_3:
Absolutely. Yeah. I’m happy to I’m gonna try to discuss it. It might sound a little messy when I discuss it but that’s so actually symbolic of what the processes and the fact that it’s just messy. Let’s do it. Oh no, it’s fine. Honestly if we’re going to talk about equity, it should always be a little uncomfortable. Um so one of the uh you know, one of the very first things I think we did with roger and the team and I really appreciated it was to just hold space for dialogue about why this even matters and what impact looks like. And I don’t mean that vaguely, we had to do a tactical visioning exercise. What described, what does impact look feel smell like when you see it, when does it take place? Um, and I think that that was so critical because we took the time to ask ourselves questions before thinking we knew anything just like Yolanda had said. Um, and so it was the time to ask ourselves those questions and overlay that with our theory of change. Why are we even saying that these local teams need to be organizing with the commitment to equity, What is equity scientist organizing really looked like. And so we held some time to really build that, which was so critical because it ultimately served as a compass for when my team of organizers waited through all of the possibilities of things we could look at and measure. And we’re from a science based organization. So you might imagine we are curious souls that want to learn a lot of information and bless rajan their team. They sat with us through it and said, well it sounds like you’re interested in your heart is telling you you need to know all of these things that might have something to do with it. But at the end of the day when we just talked about that compass of what does impact actually look like? What are the most fundamental indicators that you can consistently track that will tell, you will do the real learning of letting you know if you’re making progress or not. And so it was really the process of starting big and messy and then running through all sorts of variations of how we may or may know whether we are in fact grounding equity and inclusion in our teams based organizing and then painstakingly. But we had we built good trust along the way. So that was so critical um narrowed down to core um things that we were going to measure. So we ultimately had two of our six core keep key performance indicators that helped us measure three things, diversity of the team’s inclusive practice of our team leaders and how they are building and running those teams and the members education and engagement in terms of what is explicitly addressing equity or amplifying underrepresented upper underrepresented voices and the issues that we’re working on. And we had to define those throughout the way to be able to measure that. So that was a little bit of the process.

[00:22:06.04] spk_0:
You were able to capture those three Concepts in two Kpi s.

[00:22:46.24] spk_3:
Yeah, we we collected we collected for a few different things. So that is, you know, a number of instances where underrepresented scientists were supported or where partners were grounded in the work that uh some of the team members were um, taking up, uh, that also includes things like number of teams. What is the diversity in the makeup of that team and discuss the actual practices and how you’re running those teams. So we did that through some collection of different survey questions which we can dive into a little bit later. It was an iterative process. I’ll tell you that much.

[00:23:06.94] spk_0:
Yeah, no, I can tell for sure. And and and just for some context, I guess, how does this relate then to um, performance measurement? Like is this, is this is this drill down to individual employees or volunteer? No, I don’t know. It’s volunteers or employees like performance evaluations.

[00:24:23.14] spk_3:
Yes, that’s a good question. This for us is more about impact measurement. Um, and so the reason why we did this all along is to make sure that the data, we’re going to need to collect data about how these local teams are working and building. And it seems fundamental to us to make sure that equity inclusion were part of those because we were talking about this earlier. You manage what you measure, right? And so we needed to make sure that our key performance indicators included equity and inclusion and how we were building out our program. So the whole goal of those indicators are to help us learn as the people, the practitioners and the people who are building out this program are we actually making progress on those things that we are saying we care about and then to hold a space for accountability when we actually have to assess the growth and impact of our program. And then also just finally to invite a culture of learning both for us as staff who are trying to do things differently and for our science network members who are trying to join us in a movement to evolved scientists engagement and advocacy with a stronger equity lens. So it served more of a learning and accountability versus a performance performance evaluation.

[00:24:46.04] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um Alondra, your you wanted to take away, you know, you wanted to learn lessons takeaways like what, what are you hearing as as Daniel is describing this?

[00:27:56.34] spk_2:
Ah what I’m hearing is excitement, right? I’m hearing, I’m hearing alignment. Um uh we, we talk a lot about accountability especially at black. So, so um when you’re thinking about KPI S and I’m something that Daniel said around like you when you’re measuring, like that’s what you’re focusing on, your focusing on what you’re measuring. And so if you’re not measuring something that is a clear kind of like red flag of like if you’re not measuring it, you’re not tracking it, you’re not paying any attention to it. Um and so you’re measuring what really matters. And so it’s an outward depiction of what an organization truly matter, what matters to an organization, look at what they’re tracking and look at what they’re measuring. Um and so as a network B lab and we have all these reports, thousands of people were measuring what matters. But how are we if we’re trying to build an inclusive economic system and business is at the center of that? How do we do that? How do we have conversations with people? I might be an expert in the area. Um and raj talked about his degree and we’ve got we’ve got scientists and I’m not a scientist, right? Ah And so how do we educate people around how to approach their job? A lot of times we have conversations around Jedi and someone will say what you’re the Jedi expert? Like why do I have to do that’s your job? And I say, but it’s not, it’s not. Um we talk about what makes a leader, what makes a good business, what makes a leader someone you want to follow? Um if you’re doing things and how do you make people feel, how do you make other businesses feel? How do you make your community feel right? And so if we are we’re all knowing better and doing better and sharing this information, how do we take this information and have further dialogue around things like our standards are certification requirements? How do we measure what matters? And if we have conversations with our community that helps us understand what are the needs of the most marginalized in order to center in order to think more Jedi forward. We have to always ask ourselves who are the most marginalized. Um who who who are we not thinking about? Who are we creating barriers for a lot of times. We look at the outcomes and what’s gonna happen. But we don’t ask ourselves the question around, have I created a barrier? And more specifically, have I created a barrier for a representation that is traditionally or historically marginalized? And the only way to do that is to ask questions. Right? And so what Daniel said around dialogue. So we’re learning around listening to the community. What are the challenges that organizations are having when they’re trying to approach? Not only their KPI but whenever they’re approaching their supply supply chain, whenever they’re approaching their community communication, whenever they’re working with community, uh what are the challenges that they’re experiencing? Because if we’re looking at that, that is the information that we can use to build more resources, more uh more policies that are actually going to help uh create equitable outcomes. It’s gonna help our tools and our programs and just general accessibility of the work that we do.

[00:28:17.34] spk_0:
So, so Alondra is this is this work that’s going to be um spread among the b corp Among these 4000, you know, be corpse that that they’re going to start to be held 2, 22 Jedi standards, as I don’t mean, I don’t mean tomorrow, but tomorrow’s Saturday. But I don’t mean

[00:28:26.24] spk_2:
monday monday

[00:28:34.34] spk_0:
either. Give yourself some time. But um, this is this is this is this eventually going to be part of b corp I don’t know the approval or

[00:28:37.74] spk_2:

[00:28:39.02] spk_0:

[00:30:08.34] spk_2:
certification and verification. Um, so let me clarify so a couple of things we already tracked. So Jedi Jedi and equity bility, um, inclusion. These are already built within our standards. Um, but we are an organization, like many other organizations where trucking along and we’ve been in existence for some time and so, um, what we used to do to measure the past or not the things that we’re going to be able to measure the future as things are growing and as things are changing. So why we have always measured Jedi, why? We’ve always measured things like what’s the difference between your highest paid individual and the organization and the lowest paid individual in the organization. And the farther across that spread is indicates that there’s less equitable ability built into your systems in the organization. So we already looked at things like that. But what we’ve done in this past year is we’re really, really looking at all of our requirements. We’re looking at how we measure what truly matters. And so how do you measure equity? What is, what is that question that we write in the basic impact assessment that is gonna give us the information that we need to track how well an organization is doing identifying those questions if it’s difficult identifying those parameters were global. So it’s not just us, it’s not just Canada, I mean we’re a global network and so we have a lot of things to take into consideration. Jedi is not one size fits all, um, something that one global partner might do might not be suitable in another region of the world. So we are constantly challenged the lab Global with creating standards that are actually going to be not only accessible, but something that’s going to translate across the globe. So that’s why it’s important for us to ask lots of questions ourselves.

[00:33:34.04] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. You’re responsible for donor relationships. What do I mean, I’m talking about keeping relationships strong, moving relationships forward. I’m also talking about when there’s been a solicitation not lettering, not letting, not lettering, not letting that solicitation sit fallow, but you follow up on solicitations right? You never want to have a solicitation hanging out there that looks like you didn’t take the thing seriously to begin with. So it’s your responsibility to keep relationships strong and moving forward with your donors. You do that in ways like remembering milestones, birthdays, anniversaries, uh, the anniversary of their very first gift to the organization. Their 20th gift to your nonprofit, their 50th gift milestones like that. Um, so milestones in their personal lives, but also related to your nonprofit, keeping in touch with just, you know, handwritten notes, phone calls where it’s appropriate. Not every donor wants phone calls. I realized that however they want to be communicated with keeping in touch in those ways, email phone notes. Keeping relationships strong and moving forward. This is your responsibility as the leadership, as the fundraiser, as the board member involved in donor relationships and fundraising. It’s not your donors responsibility to keep in touch with you. It’s your responsibility to keep in touch with your donors. And that’s what I mean by keeping those relationships strong and moving forward. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for measuring equity with Danielle Fox, Alando Williams and raj Aggarwal, Danielle. Let’s talk about leadership by end. I don’t know if, you know, maybe maybe it wasn’t an issue for the the union of concerned scientists ceo necessarily or you know that c c suite level, but there must have been leaders at some at some levels in in U. C. S. That were um, I don’t know at worst, you know, unwilling at best unaware and and and so for either reason, you know, not not accepting what you C. S. Was trying to do. How do you whatever management level we’re talking about? How do you what’s your recommendations for getting that kind of buy in among leadership because it’s it’s essential otherwise this work is going nowhere, you know. So what do you recommend there?

[00:33:37.34] spk_3:
Oh that’s such a good question. I will try

[00:33:39.69] spk_0:
To finally only took 29 minutes. Almost all right.

[00:33:43.25] spk_3:
Yeah. The other ones were no, you’re

[00:33:45.83] spk_0:
suffering a lackluster. There’s no question about it. There’s no question.

[00:33:52.24] spk_3:
I uh I’m happy to to try to take a crack at that. Um and but also I’m really interested with uh with what Yolanda and Roger have that, so if you don’t mind, I’d love to have like that be a team effort. Um

[00:34:05.13] spk_0:

[00:34:21.54] spk_3:
but I’d say, you know, there there was no sort of, there was no overt objection to it. It was just more of a sense this understanding that when you want to track when you redefine success and you want to meaningfully track that, that means we’re gonna have to have a hard look at our systems and our status quo of how we usually track and monitor things and to to unpack some of that and potentially to have to change um

[00:34:41.64] spk_0:

[00:34:42.02] spk_3:
we’re defining as success and what even systems or tools or capacity we have to be able to then consistently monitor and learn from it. So I would say that it wasn’t, there wasn’t a particular opposition, it was just more of a question of,

[00:34:59.74] spk_2:

[00:37:28.33] spk_3:
what does new success actually look like. Uh and I think for that the approach was more just creating an authentic space for learning that no matter what level you are in an organization of space to ask critical questions together and to relearn and re envision together and have really difficult conversations about what we might need to be doing differently and why that’s important for what contribution we’re trying to have is so fundamental and that it doesn’t from my perspective and maybe this is my personal opinions towards like hierarchy were all at the end of the day, people with different ranges of responsibilities that hopefully if we’re showing up at that meeting and that conversation and good faith want to do better. Um, and so maybe that’s naive of me perhaps, but I think some of it was just creating a lot of spaces without particular judgment, but very honest, candid conversations about um what what’s different, what does success actually look like that needs to look different from how we’ve defined it before and then um what do we need to do as a team to be able to outfit ourselves to authentically monitor that and hold space to check back for whether we’re really um meeting the markers that we have and if we aren’t how we’re willing to adapt. And so maybe this is my own opinion every I’m an organizer at heart. So everything’s a campaign and part of that is a mix of sure pressure, but also persuasion and bringing people on board to join in a collective vision with you and see their role in it. And so I think there’s a lot of conversations along the lines of that and then a lot of conversations about if we’re going to do more of this, what are we going to do less of and having to make difficult decisions about what we prioritize and actually invest in. Uh those were difficult conversations and that is a okay. And so just giving yourself the time to work through that so that when it comes time to start up these key performance indicators and this initiative with equity and inclusion as barometers for progress that we’re all on the same page and were brought in and we know how we’re going to do it.

[00:37:57.13] spk_0:
Well if any of that was naive then I share your naivete. So I don’t think it was, but that’s because I’m with you all right. Uh Irlanda, do you wanna Danielle opened the door? Do you want to talk about? You know what I want to focus on leadership? Leadership buy in for Again, it could be anything from unawareness too. I don’t know. It could be blatant racism and just unwillingness, you know, at the at the extremes. What about leadership by in which again I think is essential to this work.

[00:42:30.50] spk_2:
Well uh it is right, it’s not, there’s no guests, right? Uh leadership buying is absolutely essential. Um And it is going to help drive longer term change and success, but a couple of things that Danielle said makes me think like that. So I’ve had a couple of experiences. I have had a myriad of experiences, I’ve had experiences where your your stuff trying to like you’re back at the business case, right? You’re back at business case. So so for those of us in the in the Jedi, I say look at Danielle Danielle, for those who can’t see, Danielle is vigorously nodding her head. Um the business case. So when Jedi hit the scene, when equity diversity E. D. I hit the scene, um the business case was like a really big thing because when we think about Jedi, it’s really rooted in how people feel the experience that people have or lack thereof, and how those experiences create inequities that can show up in education, obviously in business um in the health care system, you know, pretty much any system that we have with that inequities can can show up in. So what’s important for us to take into consideration, how do we get this by it? And so what we had to do was is we had to make the business case which was a lot of contributed in money, right? We had to say this is this is relevant to a business because businesses that are diverse that have diversity of thought, not just the color of someone’s skin, diversity of thought, thrive, They do better. And there’s years of evidence for that. Um so long before we really were having conversations about inclusion and justice and how people feel we were having conversations around your business should do this and it’s worthwhile for your business because you will get a return on your investment financially. Um, and I love the fact that we’re kind of shifting away from that and uh I’m having a lot less of those conversations and a lot more conversations of I know that there’s a problem. I recognize that something must be done. I have no clue where to start or I know that there’s a problem. I just don’t see it, help me learn how to see it and in that work it’s very, very difficult and it takes a long time. And so I’m lucky that in my current experiences I have with leaders that that know that there’s a problem and want to do something about it. But the struggle sometimes is what one thinks is the solution to the problem is not the solution to the problem. So what I see happens is you get the buy in. Sometimes you might have an organization where you have buy in from leadership. However, when you talk about what the actual solutions are, that’s when there is discrepancies, there’s discrepancies on whether or not we can actually solve this problem by by enacting that solution. And so we have to have a lot of conversations around resources and for me, I’m able to really elevate vision right, what is the vision of your organization? So I could ask that all the time. Staff say how I would love for my organization to put E. D. I first right to elevate equity. What is the conversation that I need to have with my manager, with my boss, with my supervisor, with leadership? How do we have this conversation? And I really challenge you to kind of like look at the vision and I’m encouraging those who really feel like they want to be a part of organizations that are putting this type of work forward. Take a look at the vision of the organization that you work at. We have an inclusive equitable regenerative system. So I was able to say if we want to do this work, we have to think about equity, but we have to take into consideration if we know that we’re not only going to get a return on our investment are people are going to feel better. They’re going to want to be here. They’re going to um, feel valued being here. You don’t have to work your employees to the bone to get dedication from them and treating them like human beings is how you’re actually going to be able to work together to create not only solutions but a space where everyone can show up as their true, authentic selves and feel good about being at work. Um, and we’re not there yet. You know, we’re not there were not there at the lab right? We still have these challenges internal to our organizations. Just like other organizations.

[00:43:03.80] spk_0:
I am gratified that you’re having fewer conversations that are based around money. You know, bottom line, that’s, that’s encouraging in the end it is all it is all about the bottom line but that you’re having fewer conversations that are rooted in that, you know, that are, that are explicitly about why it’s better for your, you know, how it will help your bottom line um, Raj. I’m only turning to you because Danielle suggested that you might want to comment on this. So uh would you, would you like to on the, on the buy in? We just have about 10 minutes left or so.

[00:43:18.30] spk_1:
I don’t have anything more to add than what these folks do.

[00:43:22.05] spk_0:

[00:43:22.68] spk_1:
I did share though, Danielle with Lane frisco and Denise done. Um how happy it makes me here? How happy it makes me to hear you share this in this way. So thank you so much.

[00:43:35.90] spk_2:

[00:43:36.50] spk_0:
you’re thanking me.

[00:43:37.80] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m always thinking tony and I’m thinking Danielle and of course dr Williams all the time.

[00:43:54.20] spk_0:
Yeah. Well, these voices, right, the conversation needs to be elevated and I can help deliver it to another 13,000 folks. So, um Yolanda, I have a question um, I am, I am, I am, I am I because you’re the Director of, of Justice Equity diversity inclusion. I am. I am I to 2019 If I refer to D e I

[00:44:07.89] spk_2:

[00:44:08.83] spk_0:
I am I if I’m if I’m three years old, if I’m living in the past. Tell me and I’m asking you d i is what it used to be. But now I see Jedi more, I see Jedi emerging, I know

[00:46:07.58] spk_2:
are you 2 2019? Ah that’s that’s a lot of pressure to put on. Maybe you’re not there and you’re jeremy Tony and I respect that. But I will say I will encourage folks that are still really focusing on like, quick. The fastest Jedi training that I ever can give right is um, the justice aspect is is really, really important because it takes into consideration where we are, And it’s really difficult for us to look at how the existence of things as they are right now in 2022 without paying homage and respect to the fact that there is a very specific reason why we are facing the inequity that we face today. And so it’s important for us to bring that element to the conversation, because then we can say the reason there’s a really good reason why we need to have a conversation with our HR department about whether or not this level to position needs to have a bachelor’s degree, and that is that role actually necessary? Or have we are we a product of a of a society that folks of privilege and power decided what was necessary in order to be able to succeed again defining what that success looks like. And so we are just perpetuating that same ideology, even though we know that’s not true, and so how do we really root equity diversity and inclusion in in, you know, in a way that allows us to change from the way things used to be with recognizing that it’s not going to get us to where we want to go. So that’s why justice is a really key component. But again, some folks aren’t there in their, in their Jedi journey. Um, and I aspire okay,

[00:46:43.58] spk_0:
well, and I regret that I personalized it. I got, but I was thinking, I was thinking to myself, but you know, because I don’t mean to put pressure for Jedi, I love Jedi Jedi warrior. You could be a Jedi warrior. Um, yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, let’s see Danielle, why don’t you, why don’t you leave us with some, uh, inspiration if you like or something that you think we haven’t talked about yet doesn’t have, doesn’t have to be, uh, doesn’t have to be grand inspiration. Maybe just something that we haven’t talked about yet that you’d like folks to know about, uh, this work, this journey that that you see us went through. I’m gonna give you the chance to, uh, to leave us.

[00:48:52.87] spk_3:
Sure, you know, it, this is gonna sound a little atypical, but I think the for me, what’s been inspiring is that we’ve already learned, What isn’t working from what we did with provoke. Don’t take that personal rush. I mean, that is a wonderful wonderful thing because what weird doing is we’ve built in an invitation to ourselves as I would invite our advocates and any other organization that um is questioning whether they um have the knowledge or expertise to deepen equity and justice in their work and have to measure that. Um I think we’re a perfect example of organization that doesn’t have a deep expertise in this, but still wants to do it and is trying to do it, had built out something that I think really has helped ground us to be able to see how we need to keep improving. Um and that, for me is uh pretty inspiring because Ellen and I were talking a little bit about this before very often this can feel like an such a high stakes topic that can sometimes paralyze people from investing in it in taking steps. And I think the inspiring thing here is we’re already learning in the first couple of years of using these KPI s ways we can organize the local teams to to be a little bit better and more thoughtful in justice and equity, and we’re also learning that um there’s opportunities to reiterate and and strengthen our key P. I. S. That is an invitation for more learning and accountability, and for me that’s pretty, pretty exciting because this is ongoing work. I don’t think there’s gonna be a year that you see us as check we are an anti racist organization, it’s going to be ongoing work, and that’s exciting.

[00:49:21.27] spk_0:
Perfect inspiration. Thank you. And I realized that uh I made a mistake, Yolanda, I’m gonna let you take us out because B Lab, the lab is in this for takeaways. What what you what you can share with your your your 4000 certified companies. So you take us out with some with some takeaways.

[00:50:59.06] spk_2:
I love that. Um don’t let perfection be in the way of doing something right. Doing doing nothing is never good enough. So I love what Danielle said about a moving target as well. Um lean into uncomfortable that we don’t know what a utopian world looks like. We do not know what an equitable world looks like. We don’t know we haven’t had it yet. That’s the beauty and all of this is like we can imagine whatever we want and so be a part of what the new normal looks like. Step up and take apart to stake your claim because we’ve all we are all a product of of systems that were created before we got here. We are in a unique juncture in society in history that we can take a part in what success and the new normal books like moving forward and we can create systems that actually are inclusive for everyone that allow everyone to succeed regardless of where they were born, what they looked like, their social and economic status, um sexual orientation. We have a weird and unique space that as our leadership and when I say leadership, I’m not just talking about organizational leadership, I’m talking about in the world humans and and society members who have been a part of making decisions for a long period of time. That shift of power and influence is shifting and we’re all getting apart and we and so this is a unique opportunity, don’t squander your opportunity to be a part of something different for your Children, for our future for youth. Um we get one shot. Um and and this is gonna be, this is gonna be shaped the next 500 years of society. And so I want to take, I want to encourage everyone to kind of step up to the plate and and take ownership of your part in what the future’s gonna look like for others.

[00:51:45.46] spk_0:
Perfect, thank you. That’s Alando Williams, Director of justice, Equity, diversity and inclusion at B lab, also Daniel Fox Campaign and Science Network Manager, the union of concerned scientists and the other person around was is raj Aggarwal, president of provoke who asked me to not focus on him too much. So I took him at his word. I assume he was. I assume he was honest when he’s when he made that recommendation, made that made that request, I should say so.

[00:51:50.41] spk_1:
tony what do you think? Don’t you think it was better to focus on Dr Williams and Danielle.

[00:52:03.35] spk_0:
I do, but I’m I’m disappointed that you didn’t expect me to do that anyway. So little faith after the third time on the show and still still thinks I’m an underperformer. Thank

[00:52:10.62] spk_2:
you like I know how to do my job and I didn’t, I didn’t need you, but thank you, thank you. All right,

[00:52:31.55] spk_0:
maybe the fourth time if there is 1/4 for you, I’m not sure I would say anybody wants to be on nonprofit. radio Uh, don’t partner with Raj in 2023 because you’re greatly reducing the likelihood of being of being selected. Uh, Alondra Danielle raj, thank you very much.

[00:52:34.42] spk_1:
tony it was really nice when we received your emails, valuable

[00:52:43.75] spk_0:
conversation, I appreciate it and appreciate you all for being good sports to while I uh, make fun of raj, especially

[00:52:49.43] spk_3:
thank you

[00:54:07.05] spk_0:
and thanks to all of you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22. Ntc the 2022 nonprofit technology conference with the hope that we will be together in person in 2023 in denver colorado. Thanks so much for being with us Next week. More from 22. NTCC asking for receiving and giving feedback if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great. Mhm mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for August 23, 2019: Youth Leadership & Whole Self To Work

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My Guests:

Sarah Hoang, Lucky Lim & Lalee Simeso: Youth Leadership
Our panel of youths and a program coordinator explains how to engage young people in organizational decision making, using technology development as the vehicle. They’re Sarah Hoang from Park Youth Collaborative; Lucky Lim with NatureBridge Marin Headlands; and Lalee Simeso at Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. (Recorded at 19NTC.)

Raj Aggarwal & Vanice Dunn: Whole Self To Work
What does it mean for marginalized folks to bring their whole selves to work? Why does it matter for your org when people of color feel they can’t be fully themselves in your office? Our panel answers these and offers subtle but powerful strategies to dismantle barriers. They’re Raj Aggarwal and Vanice Dunn, both from Provoc. (Also from 19NTC.)

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View Full Transcript
Transcript for 454_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190823.mp3 Processed on: 2019-08-23T23:40:46.356Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…08…454_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190823.mp3.780107532.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/08/454_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190823.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the trials of hyper amnesia if I had to recall that you missed today’s show. Youth Leadership. Our panel of youths and a program coordinator explains how to engage young people in organizational decision making, using technology development as their vehicle. They’re Sarah Hong from Park Youth Collaborative Lucky Limb with Nature Bridge, Marin Headlands and Lily sametz. So at Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy that was recorded at 19 NTC and whole Self to work, what does it mean for marginalized folks to bring their whole Selves to work? Why does it matter for your or GE when people of color feel they can’t be fully themselves in your office? Our panel answers these and offers subtle but powerful strategies to dismantle barriers. They’re Raja Agarwal and Vinny’s, done both from provoke. That’s also from 19 and T. C. Tony’s take to your board’s role in planned e-giving responsive by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com like koegler Mountain software, Denali fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits. Their story is your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO And here is youth leadership. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 NTC. That’s 2019 non-profit technology Conference coming to you from the convention center in Portland, Oregon, and all of our 19 NTC interviews are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising tools for non-profits to make an impact. I’m with Sara Hong Lucky Limb and Lolly sametz. Oh, Sarah, seated next to me is youth leader at Park Youth Collaborative Lucky limb is environmental education Mentor ship Intern at Nature Bridge Marin Headlands on lolly sametz So is the high school programs coordinator at Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. Sarah Lucky Lolly. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, have you So so I’m 56 years old. So But you think there are things that I can learn from all of you? Yes, there are definitely out there. I have no doubt of it. Okay, Okay. So your seminar topic is use the voice and design thinking, problem solving with empathy and scientific method. Okay, so let’s let’s just make sure everything is clear. So where you you are? You were each Sarah and lucky you were each interns at Golden Gate with some program in the Golden Gate Parks Conservancy. Is that OK? And Lily, of course. You’re the coordinator of interns and other volunteer programs or just intern. It was coordinated the Youth Advisory Council, which is made of high school students Where Sarah unlucky were part of Okay. Okay, um and so had you had you will put this workshop topic together. You’re from the from Golden Gate. So you’re from California. Had you will decide to come to this Portland, uh, conference and and teach us something, Had it all out of this whole thing come together. So the youth Advisory Council was tasked with with creating at NAP and a website that would get more Bay Area youth of color or underrepresented youth into the national parks. So in order to do that, we thought it was best for us to host a hackathon, but it kind of straight away from the concept of a hack down where you just called him back. And instead we opted for design thinking to get youth two actually create their own tool in which they would get more access into the part so they would be creating in the website or an app that would piqued their interest into the national parks. And that’s how we got into using design thinking. And that’s what that was. What is our inspiration for this session, right? And how did you end up here at the non-profit Technology conference? Whose idea was it to put this thing together? Come here. So our boss, Jessica, actually, she thought that our hackathon was such a success because we did lead 60 youth initially at the hackathon. And so, uh, you know, we wanted to spread Maura that message of the hack a thon to other youth and maybe just other people. So she actually found she’s been to end 10 before on So she kind of saw that they were having sessions, so we kind of created a proposal, and then we got we got those sessions. So luckily we got that. Okay, Lily, what’s what’s the advantage? You’re the adult in the group. I know. I don’t know if I’m the adult. Well, bye bye. Title. Maybe not by age. And maybe not by agent on emotion and thinking, but by title Uru you got the coordinator, Your coordinator? Yes. Okay, So what’s the advantage of empowering youth and youth leadership in our non-profits? Um I mean, I think a lot of non-profits are talking these days about, like, having diverse voices and being inclusive and things like that. But at the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy, we actually implement that and that are you centered Crissy Field Center. We way actually, let the youth Cole lead whatever they are inspired to do. So that was our mission to be like. Okay, so now you facilitate this hack a thon if you want. Like, what is the like? What do you guys want to do? And I think the importance and that is that way need to let go sometimes, uh and, um, now try to project on what we think youth want or what they need. I think they need a little bit of structure, Sure, but essentially, they’re very brilliant, and they can lead themselves with a little bit of structure and support. Yes, that’s where that’s my role. I was like, support, like the administrative. And, you know, there’s money behind these things and time time arranging meetings, making around track, um, you know, reminders And like providing feedback. Okay. Essentially, they were the ones that put this together. Okay, So, uh, what can we learn from allowing youth to be leaders allowing you to be a leader? What? What the what the adults in the room gonna learn? Well, yeah. OK, so, no, it’s fine. I think it might sound cliche to say that like, uh, e-giving us that space to be leaders will create change. But we really do. We really will create change our communities. We have that confidence. And so just giving us that voice lets us be ourselves. And so when we ourselves, we could just do great work, you know? So I just think through youth voice that we can also be on that same level as adults in all professionals and creating different careers of that, is there? Is there any problem with you having that voice and speaking it? I mean, is there is there reluctance among folks your age, Thio to speak out, exercise the voice. Oh, most definitely. There’s no there’s no problem. I just think that we have to have that space because it is. I would say like now we have being around not but being a rabbit holes, being around adults kind of is intimidating, but because there’s kind of that power structure. But I think that when youse are comfortable and they know that they have a purpose, that they can implement that voice. So there’s no problem speaking the voice it’s getting no getting that old. Listen exactly something Everybody’s fake listening, you know? I mean, yeah, yeah. Brooke blow off. Yeah. Okay. Are lucky you say something You haven’t talked for a couple of minutes. Safe sex isn’t about the importance of it. The value of it. Yeah. I think that, um youth, obviously society is always getting more progressive. And we always have to rely on you since we are Maur inclusive and we are always thinking of diversity. Okay. And you are the future leaders. Exactly. Okay. So you may as well start you start young. Yeah, right now are the current leader is right. The current leaders off what they’re leading. Yeah, Future leaders of the nation. Okay, you’re right. Thank you. All right, it’s time for a break. Wagner, CPS. They had a free wedding are on August 21st Fair labor standards act Nuts, bolts and updates. Don’t fret. The archive is up. Uh, calculate the archive. Yes, you could get to the archive. What’s the point of this Webinar Wigan are you? Calculate the regular rate of pay and overtime for your employees and for yourself helps you understand. Paid versus unpaid time and Maur, you go to regular cps dot com. Click resource is and recorded events for the archive now back to youth leadership. So this is certainly the only panel where I’m gonna ask ages because I think it’s relevant. I think it’s relevant to the audience is relevant to this topic. People know how old you are, Sarah. I’m 18. Okay, lucky I’m also 18. Okay, Lily, you’re a coordinator. You don’t have to answer. If you don’t want to tell you our it’s up to you. You could defer 28. Okay. Okay, fine. 20 years young. Right. Ok, Ok. Good enough. Um, okay. So lucky You did pretty good explanation of what this program was about, but you said it involved. Originally, we were going to straight hackathon, and then it evolved into design, thinking it was always going to have design thinking is this. We use the term hackathon because it did involve creating or the concept. Okay, conceptions of act. Okay, let zoho for the for the adult listeners. Let’s make sure that everybody knows what design thinking means. I’ll explain it all right? So design thinking has five steps, and basically it’s an interview process. Um, the first step of design thinking it’s empathize in which to collect data on your user and try to understand their emotions and feelings, and then define is in which you take the data that you collect from empathize, and then you create a problem statement and try to get at a point of view off your user. In an idea, you come up with multiple solutions. Um, because of this step, you don’t really focus on the quality of the solution. You focus more on the quantity and how many different solutions are you create because design thing, it’s Edward. If you do it over and over again, It’s not about perfecting your solution. After you go through idea, you create a prototype of one of the solutions that you create. And then with that prototype, you will be handing it to your user or target audience, and they will be interacting with it and they’ll give you feedback on it. And then with that feedback, you can go back to the previous steps and start tweaking your solutions. Or you might find that you completely misunderstood your target audience and not to have to do it over again. Yeah, so it really focuses on your target audience is wants and needs. It’s a product design process. Okay, You’re gonna say Pivot, You thought I wouldn’t know what it means, right? Tell me. I was I wasn’t even thinking about it, but Okay, that’s good. OK, now I know it fits. I was afraid you were. You thought that this guy’s not gonna know what that means. Um, Had a better engage a part of the meeting from your program. Descriptions Better engage users in creating technology solutions to address their needs using using design, thinking. Okay. The project here was to get under represented youth into Golden Gate National Park Take advantage. The programs that Yes. Yeah. And it was one way Waas to create a youth portal. And so how that that would look like in engaging more young people of color? Could be through an apple website, but we didn’t know that. And so that’s why we hosted a hackathon four Bay area use of color for 14 to 26 so they can give us inputs and ideas on what would the use portal actually look like? What would it could look like? OK, eso Sarah. What? What’s something we learned from this from the exercise of the design thinking? Yeah. So I think going through that process, it’s much different than just simply asking the user. What? What do you want? Cause they won’t know what they want. Unless six broad question. Right? Such a broad question that you have to kind of have their minds turning. And so why from that exercise we learn Like how? What? What we really need from that process, we really focus and hone in on need versus what we want. What did you find out? Some of those needs are those needs that we need for in terms of bringing Bay Area used to the parties to the park. It’s hard to get to the parks in the city if you don’t know we have a really good transportation system. But but all that transportation, it kind of goes towards downtown versus the park’s withdrawn the outer edge of the city. First way. Can’t get there exactly basics. So beautiful park advice from with pictures in the look. Nice. Expensive. Okay, It’s like it’s what? Why would they want to go to this? Why would I want to go to a park? Right? Like if they have all these other things in the city to do, it’s how. What would make you interested to go to the parks? And so that’s what we were kind of asking them. What? How? Yeah, basically, how they wanted to kind of do things in the park that would kind of sparked their interest. Okay, Like what? What could the park feature looking that did you learn that would be attractive? A lot of people were interested in hiking, camping and also kayaking. So one of our prototypes that my group created from the hack a thon is that we created this idea of, ah gear library where people could borrow camping gear or kayaking or any other like gear that you can use in ah recreational park. And then it would be hosted in facilities within the park. And we would have an app that would be a catalogue for that library. And they can check when it’s available, when it’s not when it’s in use and can use a digital inventory. Yeah, Okay, Ellie, that sounds to me like something that the conservancy could fund-raising around. Sounds like something. Uh ah foundation. Or maybe an individual donor or to a couple donors could be interested in a Gere gear library for bringing, bringing thes populations to the to the Yes. Well, yeah, actually, there that that becomes your That’s your job. That’s your actually goes to the fund-raising part of your urine. The volunteermatch judgment. But thing is awesome. The attention of your libraries doable. Yes, it transit passes baby through the school. I don’t know. We actually we actually have that way. Actually, transit passes because of the because because of the idea coming out of the design thing, Not, not exactly, but it’s more about access And so we kind of worked with Yeah, so no. But they’re passes to get you into the park there. Yeah, we have. So there. It’s kind of complicated, but we are, like, special trainable. There are special national Park days where we do host where they have free national park days. Okay, so Okay, so So where transit is Free me, like drink. Well, transit for youth. Uh, agent under 18 is free on those park treyz. Well, in general wolber. Okay. Okay, wait. Okay. I’m confused. I thought I thought I thought it was expensive to get to the park. But you’re saying under 18 under 18 it’s free. That’s an expensive, I guess, Because you also it’s not only the buses, but there’s also a bar. Oh, it’s not only the buses, but it’s also barred like, Is it free? It’s not freedom. Right? But if you’re under its run uni exactly. So there’s a distinct it takes multiple sources of transportation to get to the park and so on. Lee Yoon hee is free is not, is not okay. Okay, Now, if I and improve this listeners, there could be 13,000 feet over 30 30,000 plus wondering what she said. But it’s just so the adult in the room, you know, screwed it up. Okay, also, they’re all expensive, but parts of it are. It’s only as good as the weakest the most. It’s only as strong as the cheapest method. Yeah, Okay, so now back to the fund-raising. So So the program developed this cool idea of a gear library with an online inventory. That sounds like something that’s Funda ball. Yes. I’m not saying I’m a professional fundraiser. I’m not saying you go out and you know we’re gonna have the money. I’m not saying that at all. It might take a year, but it sounds like something that attract could be attractive to institutional or individual funders. Absolutely. And also during the hackathon, there are nine different teams that had very tangible solutions for this portal features. And there are grants available that will can fund of these different features. Your library, look, your library get funded. Well, it’s not necessarily know what’s great Way got screwed. Your life were making the subject. No, The thing is, we’re working with developers to see what features could work in with portal right so they’re picking and choosing from each of these ideas. Thio make one accessible port for the So it’s not like we’re making just a gear library, right? We want incorporated a variety of opportunity. Really, really, really bad past. Solve a problem like that’s the mail. It’s a problem. A solution. You’re done. Passes. Bart, don’t. All right. All right. Um, engaging youth in organizational decision making. That’s a good one. That’s a good one. Um, how much? How much authority did do you have in buy-in? How much? How much decision making authority did you have in designing this? Designed the whole program. We actually have a lot of input. So where we kind of go off the quote of, like for you by you? And so we’re very especially at the conservancy eso at the Golden Gate. We have. Since the whole program is focused on youth programs, we actually get a lot of input. We had a lot of say into what we’re doing, what we how we implement things and even what we spend so and what do you learn from that way? Learned so much? I think it kind of autonomy teaches us that we kind of going off of what we’ve been teaching and preaching kind of youth voice. So it’s very were, since we have that voice we can implement and work work to improve and grow on how we do our own lucky. What’s your take on that? What? What what do you feel like? You learn from managing the program yourself Just a lot of responsibility. And like independence for a hackathon we actually broke into, like, groups of, um we just broke into groups with different tasks, and some people were tasked with food some people were tasked with, like focusing on creating the session and organizing everything. So yeah, Okay, um, confidence at all like, is that there any confidence building your case with a lot of confidence? We actually learned a lot of public speaking so confident we have confidence were ableto public. Speak a little better. Okay, Speaking is good because then you can convey your confidence. Exactly. Don’t do stupid like I do. I’m ranting about gear. Libraries don’t even when I’m talking about So don’t take, don’t take. We’ll take an example from here. That is what not to do. This example taken example but it’s a negative one. Um, okay, so then it must be more about you. What about How does the organization benefit? Lally? How does the conservancy benefit from his youth leadership? Well, the conservancy is big, and so we have what’s called the Crissy Field Center and that’s a youth center. A portion of the building in National Parks Conservancy. How does it benefit? I mean, if we are truly, um, if we truly said that we want to serve our young people and promote leadership and voice, then we should actually be practicing it versus just having it on our page or having it as a as a mission. I think it’s it’s easy to say it, but then actually, implementing it becomes harder walk more like literally. Yeah, and the thing is really working well. And also it takes time. So if I’m delegating rolls toe young people to actually take on responsibilities, we have to also support them and train them. So it’s like an added layer, right, instead of me doing the work for them or telling them what to do. So I think that that’s a downside. Yeah, yeah, well, no, but but not profits to know that, you know, you have to invest. You have to invest in your program. If you’re gonna actually do what you say, be true to what you say. Then you’re gonna have to invest in it. And that takes time. And it takes money, right? And it really does take time and intentionality. So even with, for example, even with the design thinking like, I had to learn it. So I just learned it on Stanford’s website. Watch the crash course an hour and 1/2 bam, bam! And then I have to, like, translate that to the for the young people. So that’s another added layer versus them, just going through the process, right? So there’s a lot of code switching and, like, language and curriculum changing and things like that for them to digest it, right? Was it hard for you? D’oh! Were you, uh, an advocate of this of the youth program and youth leadership? Was it hard for you to get buy-in from the people who needed to approve it? No, because there was They’ve been doing it for a while. It’s not something new, but I think, um, this is like another step right coming to the conference. I think that has never I don’t think that’s ever happened. And so this is like, where we’re showing a public showcasing the work that they’re doing. So I think that is the added layer of like, Okay, we’re really doing it. How does the Conservancy feel about that? I think great. Yeah, right. Well, I know that I know. You know, I don’t ask about that. Is a conservative side looking at Nancy? I think I feel great. I think they are very proud of us. I think there’s a lot of cheers and, um yeah, all right. Another like, three minutes or so together 34 minutes together. What else have you done? Your topic already? Always asked. Have you done the seminar already? Possession. You did it. Okay yesterday. Okay. So what else did you talk about? That we haven’t talked about here? Share. Don’t hold out on non-profit radio listeners. What else? What else did you talk about? Maybe Like you’re, um, how you started off until your leadership and like, your voice, you know, talk about what voice matters more about voice. We did talk about boys. Is there more to say. Uh, come on, Spend 75 minutes in front of an audience to We’ve been talking for about 20. So you’re holding out on non-profit radio listeners? I’m not gonna have it Pressure. Well, there’s other other stuff. What did you What did you say in front of the audio? Maybe the process of design thinking like how people like reacted to that? No, that’s all. You’re lucky. Wait. It was very interactive way. Just had every single person go through the process of design thinking with their partners. So they were, like, working to create a product for their partners to solve their needs. Yeah, it was very interesting to see people that process because there was a lot, like, a lot of confusion messiness. But then people get so caught up on trying to perfect a lot of good things can come out of confusion. Investigate? Yeah. Don’t Don’t don’t Don’t fear that. Please tell them. Please tell them we knew that. But you know, they they all right, I got another. I got another way to approach is what for Lucky and Sarah s. So we got 13,000 listeners to this podcast each week they work in non-profits begin small, small could be two people And they could be, well, small and midsize non-profits, but big for us to be colleges, hospitals. When you consider that Stanford University is on the begin, our listeners are small and midsize. Okay, so what would you, uh, would you like to say to the leaders of small and midsize non-profits about youth decision making his empowerment youth voices? Uh, so to the non-profits, I believe you should definitely implement youth voice whether it’s relevant or not to your work. I think I kind of like you said earlier. Starting young starting young always approves, improves many, many professional careers and promotes, like, used developments. I believe you should definitely incorporate youth for us because it is very, very important. Okay. Yeah, like what? Sarah said work with youth. Because if you train us to be come, um, more confident and have more leadership skills. We are going to be the working in these future field. So it would be better for the future to have us more competent and and also have the organization get that voice Currently, benefit is if you’re serving youth at all if they’re going to your why or if they’re going to your community health center If you’re serving families. Families include people who are young. Let’s let’s include their voice. Maybe not on the board of trustees. Although, baby, I actually think you can include a youth on the board of trustees. It’s interesting. You know what my fear is? That with person is youth is gonna be intimidated. I don’t think so. I think you have. I don’t think so. I think you structure it right. How do you know if you never have a youth representative, right? If your structure right to not intimidate Exactly right. So you have to give them a voice. You said earlier that you know, this is not just a like a perfunctory, you know, blow off kind of committee. It’s got real voice. If you give the person real voice, give them that opportunity. A riel place on committees. Andi, listen, they’re gonna know that they’re being hurt. Yes, and they’ll take that seriously. I mean, it’s it’s real ideas, like real things that could be implemented. Okay, here’s your here. And if it’s not trustees and advisory committee, okay. But not that as the default. This is all right. All right, We’re gonna leave everybody. All right, all right. Thank you. Thank you. You’re very welcome. They are Sarah Hong, youth leader at Youth at the Partners Collaborative. Lucky Limb, Environmental Education Mentor, ship intern at Major Bridge, Marin Headlands and Lolly to May. So High school programs coordinator at Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. That’s them. We are non-profit radio. You’re listening to our coverage of 19 ntc non-profit technology Conference on all of our 19 ntcdinosaur. Views are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks for being with us. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software quote We use Denali Fund for non-profits. It’s easy to track how much is in each fund-raising simple to use. And the training is very helpful and thorough. Customer service has been responsive and caring and quote. That’s Laurie D from a church quote all the features of a sophisticated fund accounting system at a reasonable cost end quote. That’s Kim T from Lawrence Township koegler mathos software. They have a free 60 day trial at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two Your board’s role in planned e-giving. Um, naturally, there’s a video on the subject, but ah, little synopsis. There’s a lot that you’re bored conduce around planned e-giving. Naturally, it starts with their own personal gif ts that the goal is 100% participation that every boardmember. Has your organization in their state plans somewhere bequest my will, absolutely fine, but that they all have done something beyond that. Um, they should be encouraging their peers on the board. So as you’re trying to get this 100% participation, you’re asking boardmember to solicit each other. Um, they could be doing direct asks of others other, of course, other non board members that can host events for you. They can make introductions to others who may be interested in the organization, and that could lead to planned gifts for you. All right, And there are other ways that your boardmember is can be involved in very actively buy-in planned giving. You find the rest of those and everything flushed out on my video, which is at tony martignetti dot com. And that is Tony’s take do now. Whole self to work. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 19 NTC. This is our final interview for the 2019 non-profit Technology Conference. We’re coming to you from Portland, Oregon, in the convention center. All of our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising. Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me are Raja Agarwal, who is president and lead strategist at Provoke and Vinny’s Done director of equity. Also at provoke. Welcome. Welcome, brash. Welcome beneath. Thank you for having us. You could say hello, Raj. Even though Yankee Alright, we’re focusing on Denise. I’ll explain in a minute there. Session topic is beyond policy. How bringing one’s whole self to work on Dr Meaningful Change. Denise has to leave in literally, like, three minutes or something. So talk to her for a couple minutes and then Raj and I will I will do the vast majority of the bulk of it. He’s director of Equity. What is that position entail at provoc? What doesn’t entail Your boss is sitting here. You’re not well. Yeah, I know you’re not the president or lead strategy. Not yet or those things to s O. Director of Equity. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can bring equity loans to the work that we do, whether it is co-branding and communications project or a Web identity on development projects. So it covers everything from thinking about who we have in the room breaking down traditional structures of leadership and decision making all the way. Thio, how we engage with audiences for our work. Okay, Is that a new position? It is. I made it out. You did? You had been there and then made it. Had I came there. I’ve been there for about three and 1/2 years. And I was ah, Brandley lead for a while and started Thio. Think about parts of my process that were non negotiable. Related to equity and land in a position. You only have a couple minutes, so we’re gonna go right in based on your session description. Um, I’m gonna ask a question that the description asks What does it mean for marginalized folks? Thio interact with the notion bringing one’s whole self to work? Yeah, it, um it means a lot of things. I think that for us, the reason we have the session, and the reason why folks engage in that session is there’s not an easy answer. And I think the important part is asking the question. We’ve seen a trend toward promoting the idea of bringing your whole self toe work without thinking about how that affects folks differently coming from different spaces. What does it mean to be a culture fit? Which is a word we hear get a phrase we hear get used a lot around whether or not someone’s a good fit for a company. So it gets nuance and really complicated when you think about folks coming from different experiences, different backgrounds and what that means for folks. So we wanted to open up space for people to share what it’s meant for them to bring their whole Selves to works, times when it’s been great and times when it’s been not so great not to give answers. But Thio elevate lessons that folks can share among their staff so they can figure out the best way is folks can bring the parts of theirselves that feel good to work. Yeah, that’s that last part that parts of themselves that feel good parts of themselves that feel safe. Exactly. White men could bring their whole Selves conveniently, and most other people are. Maybe all of the people cannot don’t have that luxury. Exactly. Exactly. And so what does it look like to create work places where there are spaces? Maybe it’s not every space, but what does it look like to create spaces where marginalize folks can come together on dhe and bring more of themselves on? What does it look like to create safer spaces for folks to get? You need a lean into bringing more and more of themselves to create better work and better work environments. I saw intent has a deep commitment to this. They have a space that is safe, and that is only for people of color. Absolutely white men and women stay out. Yes, we’re actually copans irritating that space way are so the racial affinity space it’s called. I know it exists. I didn’t know what’s going okay, which I admire it intern at NTC. I should say, um so So what does it mean? Way asked that we have a couple questions. What does it mean? What does it feel? What does it mean? to bring only the part of you. Let’s go. What’s the implication to an organization when your people you’re people of color, feel that feel safe, only bringing part of their Selves to your work? What is that? How does that hurt your work? Whether it’s, uh, emotional bottom line, you know you’re the you’re the director of equity e-giving. Give some insight. Yeah, not answers. Absolutely. I think it can create a lot of problems. One is with retention. So when you focus your efforts on diversity hiring and you get some really great people of color in your organization, if you aren’t thinking about how to keep them safe on and productive and happy and their workplaces, you’ll lose them. So they say, a lot of folks in diversity hiring push for the hiring and not for creating systems and operational izing practices that benefit staff of color as well. A cz white majority nastad. To me, that just sounds like tokenism. Absolutely well, hyre folks of color, but not give them power, not give them equity any decision e-giving voice or give them voice and not listen to it, not voice exactly. And so it creates that creates ah pipeline of folks coming in and falling right out and then the nonprofit sector. There’s actually a really great report called Reese Toe Lead a minute talks about 4000 person respondent and it talks about the cycle of people of color in organisations and how not prioritizing them in discussions creates that cycle of hiring and then folks falling out of the moving into for-profit sectors. So it’s really hurting our sector as a whole. Um, do you know where that reporters recently? Yes, it’s raised to lead on and it is by I can’t remember after donorsearch rates for the Yeah, the Google race deleted the first reports that yeah, lights have just gone out in 1990 sea. But not probably xero perseveres way continue here. It’s nice and damn, there’s no difference to me. Yeah, it’s softened things lead line even have our own lady so we could go black. We’re persevering. I’m getting 25 minutes of isn’t it? Kills us. I got a show to put on the show must go on lining in all its 1 15 That’s fine over. Niece needs to know. Okay, well, you you’re conscious of your time. Yeah, I should probably gotta go. I can answer another good conversation. I mean, it’s up to you. If you want to leave, it’s your life. Yeah, I actually have to leave because we’re having the follow-up session for the racial affinities. So give us. Well, stick with the original question. Uh, some more insight into what does non-profits clearly turn over if you’re not, If you’re not deep, it’s not a core values, diversity, equity inclusion, not a core value. And you’re not acting on it. Yes, it’ll just be a turnover cycle. You might as well not even bother. It’ll actually be counterproductive people of color, but well, then feel marginalized and speak badly about you for the rest of their lives. You might as well not even bother. Exactly. And it’s expensive. It is. Well, if you have to guess financial bottom line, it is expensive. Share another U. S. So there is another report I’ll share by FSG about the case for racial. The business case for racial equity on that report highlights a lot of the re reasons why, particularly businesses on other organizations that generate income that service the population that is in America should be prioritizing racial equity. And that’s because the population is growing larger than any other population. So for actually thinking about the people that were serving and the people that we our in service to that people will be majority in 2020. Exactly. Exactly. So to understand that reality. And we have to be thinking about how those folks are senator and conversations how are building policies and practices with them at the heart of the creation of those practices. Because you’re gonna be you’re gonna be left behind. Exactly. You know, it’s not 1955 anymore. Exactly. 2025 is coming. And you better realize that the whites are gonna be in the minority. Exactly. We cease to exist as a business organization. If you weren’t having those conversations now, Yeah, now is the time. It’s over time going by now. All right. Uh, I’m not I’m not rushing. You are. Okay. I shouldn’t say one more question. So I don’t want to keep your either. Yeah, I’m gonna head up. But I am really grateful for you all making the time for me and letting you head over to hold this race. Racial affinity space. Yes. You’re welcome. Thank you so much. Lebanese. Okay. Denise has departed the scent. Now we’re left with that. We got the residual We got the individual. You know that confused because he was on last year. Absolute Raj Raj. So why did you decide to invest off? Well, is Vanessa full time employees? Absolutely. Why did you decide to vest a full time employment slot and the money and the benefits that go along with that too? Ah, position called director of Equity. You know, my belief is that there’s nothing more. There’s no greater work that we could be doing in this world and helping to dismantle structural racism. But I also say that with hopefully some humility and self awareness that our company has a lot to do internally to make sure that we embody those values as well as helping. Now, a lot of organizations. Now it is helping to understand walking with them on the racial equity journey. So we found a lot of foundations, a lot of non-profits, um, organizations like in 10 that are naming racial equity and holding it close as a core value. And what does it mean to create spaces like the racial affinity space where it’s only for people of color. What does it mean, if your foundation that says that you understand that the reason that um, the issues exists within your community or with your grantees is all based on systemic racism and therefore will name that and then re orient or practices are giving the everything around understanding racial equity as the systemic reason for why the world is the way that it is? And so working with those organizations in that way has just been, um, just It’s just It’s really enlightening for me as I’m on my own path around understanding race and its impact on my life and others. But it’s also being at the helping to address the source issue. I’ve been working in the non-profit Arena for 20 years, worked with over 450 organizations, and I can’t tell you the number of organizations that actually don’t believe in their own theory of change or actually believe that what they’re trying to accomplish will ever actually happen. And so when you get to route, folks that are actually able to say we’re going to dismantle structural racism through our programs and through our e-giving. That’s really powerful because they’re saying that they don’t want the problem to exist anymore. I want I want every single person and non-profit to be out of a job, you know, because they Dave address what they write. Otherwise, what’s the point? You know, one time work-life Richard Branson’s Ah, Carbon War room. And they were like, we’re gonna be out of business in five years and my jaw dropped to the ground. It was the first time that a real well successful business person was like, I’m going to get into this and I’m gonna get it done now. They haven’t gotten it done yet because their work was around climate change and we obviously have a big issue. But who? Who goes into an issue saying that we’re gonna get five years out of business time for our last break Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your work, media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. They’re at turn hyphen to DOT ceo. We’ve got butt loads more time for whole self to work. Let’s give a shout out to provoke because I want. I want people to know that it’s not a it’s not a, uh it’s not a d. I consulting agencies don’t talk about what you do. It provoked. Yeah, we d’oh what we called outcome driven, designed by the people for the people. So we do branding, marketing, technology, messaging, run campaigns. But if you were to say the two areas that we focused most on our working with organizations to dismantle structural racism and helping to end major diseases, and so we’ve really brought a human-centered design approach to all of our work. So Denise, really, she explained how that how we go about approaching our work with an equity lens, and so that means including all the stakeholders are gonna be impacted or benefit from the work that we’re doing in the creation process from inception to delivery on, and so that process often takes longer. But the fact is that at the end of the day, you actually produce campaigns messaging branding that is a lot more resonant with your audience than something that you would attempt to do as maybe consultant who thinks that they know everything or an organization who thinks that they might know everything about the people that they’re working with in the racial affinity space. Can you can you share some of the stuff that you were hearing? They’re so common, common themes in aggregate. I don’t know if I can let me let me try, because I’m not. I don’t wanna be representative of the fact that there were so many voices with so many different opinions. But one thing that does come up is that, you know, we live in a very white world, and often people that are white have an opportunity to be able to express themselves. However they want to the, uh just stop. Roger Second, You don’t know that the not only the lights go out. It’s not black with dim, but the non-profit technology conference is being taken down around us. I don’t give a shit. Well, I still don’t care. Non-profit video perseveres. I just wanted That’s the noise that you hear way asked ActBlue our partners here to keep up their backdrop so that let 1/3 of our background wouldn’t disappear while while we’re shooting video on, Dave kindly agreed. But all around us, uh, ntcdinosaur Ming down 1990 seats coming to an end, It doesn’t matter. We’re continuing. But I just want to let you know that’s the noisy here, both on both the video and and the podcast. Forgive my interruption. So to answer the phone, answer the question like this. I can’t be representative. Everybody that was in there. But overall, like often, people that are white are able to express themselves about what they’re seeing and experiencing in the world in any situation. And often there aren’t safe places for people of color to be ableto have those conversations and understand what it means to be an most likely predominantly white organizations. Um, and what they’re seeing around d I or what they’re seeing around. So a lot of the issues that beneath already mentioned and how to be able to talk about that with other people of color so that their solidarity there is an opportunity to be able to address those issues together versus feeling there alone. Often a lot of people of color, often one of the you know, the minority within their organization, and they’re often looked on to help explain issues around equity or racism. And they often have to do the emotional label labor of sharing with other people that are white, um, about what it means to be a person of color, and so that becomes really taxing. And so what does it mean when you don’t have other people that you can relate to or, you know, that often also dealing with a lot of white guilt, A lot of things air coming up nowadays in a way that has never happened before, especially in the age of Trump, where people are people are. People are becoming awake to what’s been going on for a long time, and there’s a lot of processing that happens as people realize that they’re a part of the system that created a systemic inequities in the first place. Yeah, there’s there’s There’s a big awakening buy-in wait for among white folks of what everybody else has been suffering for decades, generation, hundreds and thousands of years. Okay, now it’s well, that’s generation. That’s a lot of, you know, like I agree. So now it’s on the surface and conversations of being had we had our non-profit metoo we had our first d I conversation with you last year talking about really basically same subject. Can you bring your whole self to work? I think that was basically the topic that was the same topic. And it was really nice for intent to invite us to do that again this year when we spoke to some people, you know, this is an evolving conversation. Um, and it’s, you know, it’s not gonna be called a quote solved. It’s not a C R M or a technical or e mails, check bark. And also, it’s really nice for intend to be able to be like, Hey, we’re not gonna only talk about technology. But we’re gonna talk about this whole last week of the fact that you are a person not just performing a specific function at your organization. And also another thing that comes up is people feel like they’re in a progressive space. So therefore they would expect that people would understand, Um, but the fact is that there is a variation variants of what people people’s comprehension of the issue on. That’s just that’s normal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes startling how shallow the understanding is or even the unwillingness to to grapple with the issue, just ignoring it. Okay, well, it’s hard. We’re working. We’re working. It is hard. It is hard. But that doesn’t mean it’s insurmountable. But that doesn’t mean you should ignore it, because it’s hard. All right. Let’s, uh let’s talk a little about some strategies you have from your description. Strategies to dismantle barriers and encourage authenticity, huh? Focus on some ideas you have. Non-profits can start a conversation around. Maybe they’re immediately execute herbal if the organization is willing. What? What, What? What? Some advice. Yeah. Yeah, Well, one thing is, you know, I’m the founder of the company, and we have wonderful people at our company. And, uh, I think it’s important for me to model the best that I can to bring my whole self to work. But I also have made mistakes in doing that. Being the head of the company, I yield a certain amount of power that other people don’t. So I’ve learned about, I’ve learned, and I’m still learning about what’s appropriate versus what isn’t. Um, you know, there’s other aspects, you know, not just beyond race, but it’s also about age. And, um you know, and sexual identity and all the other you know, isms that are out there. So, um, I think dialogue is the most one of the most important things that we can. D’oh there one of the things that, as faras specifically around race provoke, worked away. The group called the Government Alliance for Race and Equity and Race forward for a two and 1/2 year campaign to help dismantle structural racism in five cities around the country. And from that we develop the campaign called Racial Equity here and over almost 600 organizations, non non-profits businesses, cities, educational, academic institutions have taken a pledge to make a public commitment towards racial equity. And because everybody wants to know about what do I do about that? We created some really well researched and vetted tools that are freely available to anybody if they make this commitment to understand what understanding the history of race and racism and racial equity, and also what they can do about that specific topic. So what? And so this is like a self guided tool that organizations can bring into their organs, bring into their companies and sit down in a two hour meeting and review this information together. You have to make the pledge first, and then you get access to the tools. Yet where do you go to make the play racial equity here dot or GE Racial equity here dot or Tony, I love the CIA. You take that pledge. I’m a business owner. I’m the only person in the biz. There’s a lot of businesses on our one form. You don’t mind a one person? Not at all. It’s gonna take one person at a time. Okay, that’s all I got. Um, okay, uh, better if I don’t write it down the way this racial equity here Yeah, you know, that’s where other tactics go. Are so which were not reticent to give people checklist about things because sometimes people say that they want, you know, that’s what people want, but it’s a process. It’s not what you said earlier. Tony is about, you know, putting people of color in not not doing tokenism, you know, putting them in, bring them into your organization and then making sure they’re real voice and responsibility and authority inappropriately with their level. Nobody’s saying bring them in and put them on your board. That depends. You know, one thing I’ve recently learned about that was a big learning moment for me. Is this concept of lived experience? I’m on immigrant son, and what we’ve been taught is you work really, really hard. Go to college. You work really, really hard after college. And then maybe at some point you get to this point where you get the corner office, you get a big paycheck, and then you get a pension or you get a retirement, whatever that is. You know, these are the old stories that I was brought up in. But the fact is that people are growing up with their lived experience, and that has as much, if not more value than a degree or time that they’ve spent in their actual position on. I have to tell you, this was one of the hardest concepts for metoo t talk about this last year. Job descriptions for recruiting, about use of the word professional, the additional appearance. But we also did talk about life experience and valuing that. So, as a business owner with a degree, this was hard for you. Too hard for you to understand. Yeah, absolutely. and we’ve made some changes to address that. And how’s it going? I’m have you made hires that I don’t have degrees, but have valuable life experience Way we’ve provided. Um, We’ve provided Wheatley. We’ve provided pay for people based on their lived experience lived experience. Okay, I was hesitant to share that, cause I just wasn’t sure what was appropriate. But, I mean, that’s just what we’re doing and said okay. Yeah. Thank you. Is it? Has it been long enough that you can say that? It’s You’re glad you’re glad you did it. I’m 100% God. I I I I wish I had learned about it or the leader. But it’s just, you know, my conditioning and how I grew up in this country is just, you know, didn’t it Did not compute. Okay, that’s that anymore. Strategy? Well, we have. Yeah. You want to leave people? We have, like, a minute or wave like two minutes. Sorry. As the world comes down around more strength, it is coming down. The lights are still dim. You wouldn’t recognize this as a conference anymore. I mean, I guess you would know that it’s a conference centre, but you wouldn’t see a conflict here, but they’re leaving us alone Will be such a I’ve seen crates go by a forklift to drive by. But you’re masking tape in there. You duct tape in the background doesn’t matter. You know, one thing that’s also interesting that I noticed recently is that, um, number one. I wondered about this racial affinity spaces Number one. Did people feel comfortable coming to us face like that, knowing that’s not technical in its nature, It’s more of a space for gather. And do people feel guilty about it? And also, I think that for me, I’ve been on my own journey around race since about 2015 where I was like, Oh, there was like this. I mean, I think I’ve always known it, but I never have, like, really dove into it as much as I ever have in the last few years. And I think this is happening. Not only, you know, we talked a lot about how people that are white are often thinking about this topic, and it’s coming up with a lot of stuff, but I think it’s coming up a lot more for people of color that haven’t happened had been to become so ingrained in being in white spaces and being comfortable in it, it started to give other people permission or a realization that there is something that they haven’t been addressing. Proactively. Yeah, and so the racial affinity space was Yeah, it was. I think it was more about the quality of the conversation. I used to be a party promoter. Everything used to be about numbers for me. And now it’s just about Oh, you know, how’s the conversation? And same thing within our organizations, when a leader or person says that we’re gonna create some sort of space or curriculum or put resource is behind things. Um, all of a sudden, people start to feel differently because you’re like, Oh, what? This actually matters and you’re gonna create a culture where more people will want to work with you. We’re gonna leave it there. Okay. All right. Good to see you. Good to see you too. 10 Tony martignetti non-profit radio ending their our coverage of 1990 sea as it comes down around us around me and Raj Raj. Dr Wallace, President, lead strategist at Provoke, which is P. R. O V. O C. And you’re listening to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage Ending of 1990. See all our aunties, All our 19 ntcdinosaur views brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks so much for being with us next week. Online Major e-giving and online adversity. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, Find it on Tony martignetti Doc, Come, We’re sponsored by Wagner C. 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Nonprofit Radio for May 25, 2018: Board Change Agents & Authentic Selves In Work

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Raj Aggarwal, Sabelo Narasimhan & Glamarys Acevedo:
 Authentic Selves In Work
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference shares strategies for workplace inclusion so that all selves are welcome and accepted. They are Raj Aggarwal from Provoc; Sabelo Narasimhan with 350.org; and Glamarys Acevedo at Mamatoto Village.





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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with polychrome at ophelia if you stained our relationship by saying you missed today’s show authentic selves at work, our panel from the non-profit technology conference shares strategies for workplace inclusion so that all selves are welcome and accepted. They are raja agarwal from provoke sabelo narra symon with three fifty dot or ge and glamarys azevedo at mamatoto village and board change agents you want to shake things up on your board and in your order, greg cohen takes us through the process of identifying, recruiting and exploiting agents of change on your board he’s with cause effective tony take to the ninety six year old secretary with eight million dollars in her will. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by regular cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps, dot com and by telus turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s here is authentic selves at work from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen, ninety si you know what that is? It’s a non-profit technology conference. You know where we are in new orleans at the convention center. This interview is scheduled centerview response, sir. Why not buy network for good? Easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits and they’re sponsoring it. They didn’t schedule it. My guests are raja agarwal, sabelo, naralo kayman and glamarys azevedo raj is president of provoke i say that right provokes correct. Okay. I didn’t ask about pronouncing your company name. I only asked about your personal name. He did a great job amglobal pronounce her company name wrong to propose. They say sabelo robak provoc which is the traditional latin version of alright, alright. And sabelo is north american digital campaign manager at three. Fifty dot org’s and glamarys is the professional development specialist mamatoto village. Raj sabelo glamarys welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much for spending time and sharing your wisdom. Your seminar topic is bringing your whole self to work. Let’s, start down the end. There glamarys what’s the what’s. The trouble what? What? What would you like to? See, people do better when they go to work each day, right? I think our our session is going to be really or, you know, you don’t have a minute neo-sage exactly so this is a little preview, right? Eh? So we’re going to be speaking about, you know, who has the privilege of bringing their whole self to work, you know, and who doesn’t write s o i think some of us work in places where we do not how the privilege to bring our whole selves to work, right? Because there might be, you know, things, implications, teo, those actions bring your whole self, and then maybe some of us work in places where we feel like we’re getting closer to being ableto have an environment where we bring ourselves to work, what is the whole self? What do you mean? You have to forgive my voice? I’ve done about thirty these interviews what i say, what do you mean? What do you mean when you say the whole self? That is a great question, so i believe just in from my experience i’ve been and workplaces where i had to bring a version of myself to work. So that i could, you know, excel within, maybe they’re parameters, but it wasn’t maybe my whole authentic excel unlike where i work now, where i feel like i can bring my whole donor-centric self and it’s something that’s really valued, and i’m able to excel in that and growing myself instead of growing into stumping that someone else wants me to be. But what is your whole self, my health? So, i mean, that is that is that i’d like to ask everybody such a such a layered right eye, a multifaceted so there’s just there’s so many layers to my whole selves like that’s really? Uh, parsing that out twenty five minutes. I could take the whole entire teo, but we’ll start with your woman. Yes, s o that’s. Great. Yes, i’m a woman. I don’t fires a woman identify as a black latina. Um, identify as in my workplace, this is important. I defy with someone who is single without children. S so there’s some things that, you know, come up. You know, i’m bilingual, you know, those of certain things that come up in my workplace, that i’m able to bring my whole self and that and i feel like those are factors that are used against to me, which i think in some environments it could be and has not just could nobody has. Okay, okay. Sabelo yes? How do you do? Well, let let’s, before we ask, before i asked how you define your i don’t define describe your whole self, but before that what’s your what’s your intro to this topic, why did you feel this was unnecessary session at ntc? I feel like in the nonprofit world there’s been a lot of conversation over the last few years about bringing your whole self toe work, and most of it has been led by cece hat white males and women on dh they are proposing practicing vulnerability and taking risks and not worrying about being judged or the implications of bringing your whole self to work, and they see it from a very narrow they’re like my ionic, which which it means something entirely different for a person of color means something entirely different for someone like me to bring my whole self toe work, and the consequences are often not, uh, positive, so you know there’s a lot of wing of choices. That are made about when and how to bring your whole self to work so that it’s actually supporting yourself and not putting yourself in dangerous situation. Okay, i guess we’re going talk some about creating an environment that enables, yes, someone to bring their whole cell exact okay, the way glamarys feels comfortable, who is your whole self? Sabelo well, again, as glamarys said that’s a complicated question, but i identify as trans queer, immigrant of color on dh i have a lot of identities, but most of which are hyre not the mainstream at the organization i work at, and so i’m often used to being in situations where i’m the on ly x or the on ly why or the only z and s so how does that feel? Uh, it feels isolating it feels difficult to contradict what the expectations are for a leader toe look like what the expectations are for a person who’s doing good work in the organization toe look like and the particular ways that i need to be supported rather than undermined for bringing my whole self toe my eyes water actually, raj, welcome. Thank you. How would you to find the need for this session, um, i, too, believe that a lot of the conversation that’s happening is off, and technology is important. Designs important. I make my living doing it. But i think that we often have to leave who we really are when we come into interactions with other people. And i think the ending result is products, environments, people just not not being as effective as they could be if we really tapped into so authentic selves who we are. And so i find that the more that i’m able to be my whole self work, it gives our client’s gives the rest of our team permission to be themselves, too, and i find working together with them ends up being a lot better and what we produce is it being a lot better, but i think sometimes we’re just to. Oriented on the on some expectation of what should all look like versus what it truly is and how it’s continuously evolving time for a break pursuant, they have a new site and a brand refresh and the top creatives they’re the two senior creatives that worked on this. Put together a podcast with tips and lesson learned lessons learned that’s, taylor shanklin and andy goldsmith at pursuant may share how they kept it user focused, plus their expertise doing this with hundreds of sites. It’s a combo with tips and strategies lessons learned you’ll find it at pursuant dot com slash launch. Now let’s, go back to our convo you feel if if there’s, if there are parts of your whole self that you have to withhold, then you’re withholding your best work. Yeah, maybe not consciously, probably not consciously, but if you can’t be yourself, you can’t give everything that you can to your clients. Your organization? Yeah, i think it really pulls back on our ability to create creative solutions. I think that this idea that there is a separation between work and life, it doesn’t make sense to me. Um, i’m the owner of my company. I’ve been doing that for a long time, and i do the work that i do and most people in the non-profit work do the work that they do because they love it, you know, the number of people that i’ve spoken to that have been no offense hoodwinked by there by their organizations because they believe in the mission, but they’re not being paid well or treated well, but they believe in the mission over and over again, and on top of that, they don’t get to be them, but they do it because they love it. So in one way, you could say that they’re being manipulated by the system to do this thing, and then at the same time, they’re not able to be themselves at the same time, but they’re only reason they’re there is because they love it. So i think distinguishing those two needs to go away, who’s your whole self. Yeah, well, i think it’s also complex the way that my wonderful colleagues here have mentioned, but one of the things that i talk about, a lot of different things, i’m a male out primary owner of a company, and so i’m also a male who’s in a position of power i’m my heritage is from india, and i’m a person of color. I’m on a very interesting journey around race because i’m not black, i’m not wait on dh that’s seems to be, you know, obviously a really big conversation that’s happening in america today and always has been for a long time, but i’m also formerly heroin addict, and so i told my story on npr about three years ago, and i was very public about it. I wasn’t anonymous about it, and i found a lot of freedom from doing that, not only you just just in general and it’s it’s opened up a lot for me by having to release holding that back, whether it be with clients or whether it be with my team or with my family or with the rest of my south asians culture. You know, just these things, there’s once you remove the shame or whatever, people might impose his shame for some choices that you make that aren’t mainstream. Yeah, hopefully is what people impose not not what you’re feeling, but but those air those are so intertwined because it’s about acceptance it’s about being loved and if we don’t have that, then you know, we don’t feel we don’t feel comfortable being ourselves briefly. What was the npr story about with regard to heroin addiction? Yeah, you know, they talk about this thing called the opioid epidemic, which i think is baloney, because people of color have been impacted by heroin for over forty or fifty years, and at the very least, at least in this country and now that it’s become showing up in more in a rural communities may be impacting more people that are white, it’s become this, quote unquote, epidemic. And so i really want to talk about how it was one of the hardest things that i’ve ever had to go through in my life. As i was doing the interview, i had the privilege of having my parents with me, and they heard things that i had experience that they never even knew was there, and so was a tremendous amount of healing between myself and my family, but your parents heard some things for the first time in front of a mike in front of a mike. It was all recorded. I have it, i can share with you, tony, if you yeah, okay, it was a seven that’s, a pretty authentic radio. It was seven and a half minutes, and it was picked up by national npr and played all over the place, and i got hundreds of people reaching out to me, especially of south asian background, being like, you know, how can we talk about this? Because i’m struggling with some of the same thing. If someone wants to listen to that, can they just google your name, and they are, they can, and the name of the interview is called heroin. Heroin addiction sucks. It totally does, just for the record, okay, guard. Sabelo who? Who are the people that can bring their whole selves to work without a fear of shame, of being downcast. Who what population is that that khun company will bring it’s whole self? I think, at least especially in the american context. But really globally we live in a system of white supremacy, and that is seen as the mainstream that is seen as the norm that is seen as, you know, white male, i presume, is what we’re talking about. White women too on dh and there’s, there’s there’s a sense of their huge blind spots. These folks have white folks has around bonem there’s just so much that they don’t even think about, you know, they don’t question because they’ve just been entitled to just be themselves and it’s ok to bring their, you know, tears in or it’s ok to bring there dahna, you know, decisions in without worrying about will people listen to you? Well, people respect you, they can delegate, they could do all these things without ever having questioned i want to challenge something that you feel like women could bring their their whole self, comfortably white women i’m not sure for me see for me race and gender are like central to my thinking, but race is the primary driver like it’s, the biggest elephant in the room in every workplace i’ve been a part of in the us and, you know, for me that overshadows what white women experience, which can be challenging, but like, for example, in non-profits including my own, there are tons of white women in leadership, and there have been so, you know, they do experience certain forms of oppression, but and that that might limit their ability to bring in, whether they’re, you know, a mother or whether you know, other other parts, but but there’s also, i think additional blind spots created because they feel like they’re, you know, put down by the white men, and so therefore they don’t have to analyze their own reiteration of those kinds of behaviors. Glamarys how do you feel about that? Women wait, women being able to bring their whole self? Yeah, i completely agree with the fellow on that on because i think white women with what i think has not been highlighted is that white women, they really do uphold white supremacy, right? I think that is the root of what we’re speaking of here and the fact that we’re constantly, you know, i feel like the narratives always like all the white man, the white men it’s, just like but if you look at this is the white people and white women are part of that, and i feel like even to my experience with non-profits like, you know, at the end of the day, yes, they have other parts of themselves that they have to bring into work, but they i feel like i have that that privileged to be able to do that in a way that people, people of color do not get to do that. So in that sense, i can’t i’m not willing to sort of, you know, like, i don’t know why women, no, like they also uphold white supremacy, and so we have to talk about that that dynamic in the workplace. How about the workplace? That’s? Why what? I want to go to creating a workplace that is inclusive, that doesn’t impose shame, fear, love, discrimination, recrimination, let’s start since we were down there with you, america, how do we what strategies can you share, too? Because we have a lot of listeners. Who are ceos? Executive director among our among our listeners. What do you want to say? I would say, you know, hyre black people and rolls of leadership hyre black women and rolls of leadership, i think, like, at the end of the day, like getting those people and to those rows of leadership is going to affect the, you know, dynamics that are happening at non-profits that are kind of like a monolith right now, right? Like it’s, you know, white on top, and then maybe, you know, as you trickle down on it would be, you know, more people of color, but that’s not the way like, if you’re really wanting to be inclusive, that’s not the way to get it to bilich oh, we met some sort of quota because we have enough, you know, workers of color and itjust like, but where are they within the company, right? What about the pushback that there aren’t enough applicants of color a senior leader for senior leadership position? So with that piece, i would go to the job description and you can see the, you know, racial undertones, even within that, right? Like what? What, like when when? You put it in there like when you put into job descriptions, maybe not, including, like, maybe experience, but really trying to highlight, like education. We already know they’re very like large disparities within, like, even educational requirements, and but someone might have the experience, you know, just from working to be, but be great person for this role, but because you have maybe this piece in here it’s like, oh, they have to have, you know, a master degree and this and that, you know, i mean, like, those kind of sort of pre requisites really end up excluding people from being even able to even apply track. S o i think some even like looking into that, i think when people are riding up, you know, they’re just just job description, what they’re looking for if they were true, like, if they really were to look at it and parse it out there looking for a white, you know, male, female, really to fit into these roles, they may not be doing it consciously, right? But they are doing it subconsciously and so that’s something that i’ve, you know, been able to see whenever i’m going to go. Up imply for roles i i think i may be a really great fit for this, but because of some of these markers that they have put in there, they’re not realizing that they’re really excluding frumpy people, you know, to apply so people of color, like they’re out there, and they’re ready to take on these roles and be really excellent in these roles. But it’s really the environ first of all, the environment of those non-profits do people even want apply there? Because it might be one of those things that rogers speaking to where is like, the mission seems amazing, but then you look at, like, the culture of it, you’re just like i’m not really even wanting to be a part of that writes that might also be contributing to why those organizations feel like there is in that pool of applicants, right? But people are out there that there’s no one can tell me that there’s not people of color who can come in and, you know, a part of these rolls but i think it’s a lot around the the oh, gosh, it’s word this morning napor martignetti yeah, the markers of it, you know, but okay, but isn’t education a reasonable requirement for see you, lucia? But if it’s a cfo it’s reasonable to expect a degree in finance, correct, i think, but i know i hear you on that piece, i just feel like what’s not being thought about is people’s experiences experience coming into these rolls, right? Like, if you have these, like defined markers of, like, you have to have this that’s in that, like when it comes, i think the educational metoo means something like a bachelor’s degree or further in finance or equivalent life experience, right? Exactly. I’m starting to see more of that happening, which i think is super important, and i think that is a better way of sort of approaching those sort of things whenever job descriptions are being put out there. But yes, i’m definitely speaking to that she has an employer. Um, i totally agree one thing that i’ve found is that i had no idea how much code was in the language that i was putting out in my job description, but i’m a person of color. And what else did you find besides education language, like professional or expertise or networks? Of people where i was putting out the job description to because if i kept on putting out to my two don’t people of color, i have networks, and aren’t they professional and missing even the word wife? I mean, there were those air more ground, even the word professional is code for a certain type of person that might dear to what the standards are, whatever professionally, i think i think that you have tio i think you have to start with the assumption that there is a qualified person of color for every role you’re hiring for and that you do not need to lower your standards in order to get a person of color in those roles. It’s just about changing the language, many most people get jobs through network through who they know. There are even their stats that black college graduates from the same schools get jobs at much lower rates than the white college graduates from those same schools. It’s clear that the disparities air there even with equivalent education, so you just have to re tune yourself. You have to reframe the job based on that assumption that, like, you’re not reaching the right, people that you want to bring in to actually get creative, innovative new thinking in your company and like different perspectives, different questions ask different projects prioritized because you’ll get different people than just those same old, same old people that you have. Another part about the issue was specifically with the cfo, which i think is a really good example the people that run our books at our company don’t have a degree in finance, they even work, and i’ve been writing a sustainable business for over nineteen years, and what i find is that people that often are very dogmatic about particular numbers, they’re not really understanding the missions. So when there’s a nuance to a particular decision that isn’t just about money but about impact, they’re not able to discern it in that way. So i think it’s more important, that they have well rounded experience are connected to the mission versus just having it the degree that indicates that they were educated by some ivy league university that says that they can do this thing, but it doesn’t mean that other blind spots are going. I’m guessing it’s, you would find it insufficient to just have a statement that says people of color re hyre regardless of treyz sexual orientation, uh, gender, etcetera, just have a disqualifier at the bottom of a job description. I’m guessing you would believe that that’s not sufficient. I don’t think the necessary that’s necessary, but not sufficient. It’s what? It’s a it’s, a it’s. A very basic. Okay, what is it? I didn’t. I don’t get your point about the word professional or networks because people of color, people who are trans i mean, they have their professional and they have networks. I’m what am i missing? Professionalism in america is usually about assimilation, assimilation to white supremacy, assimilation to an idea being american. If you have an act sent getting rid of it, if you have dreadlocks not wearing them to work, you know, there’s there’s a lot wrapped up in that word professional that perhaps a lot of people don’t think about white people don’t think about but all the people of color i know do think about the you know, the ways in which they conform or code switch to adapt to workplace ideas about professionalism. Good let’s go so it’s kind of pathetic als bringing your whole self toe work if we’re talking about a simulation. Yeah. Same. Or what do you mean? Well, if we’re all going to be the same, then what’s the point of us being individual human beings with their own personalities, experiences, characteristics, perspectives like, you know, one of the things that i do in washington, d c is i helped to create it an inclusive economy. And one of the things that we really try to push out as much as we can is big boxes. And because people want to live in communities where there are businesses that represent their own individual needs are owned by people within their community. Everybody going no offense and mcdonald’s or the target over and over again. And also no target has its own place in the world as faras economics go. But the point is, how do we create a unique environment that is representation of each of our beautiful, unique selves? Let’s go further than beyond the job description. What would you like to say? A little like some idea. Yeah. I mean, hiring is, of course, a really important prerequisite. But beyond hiring retention support, um, i have a very strong voice i have a really unique perspectives to bring in that would really help push the work forward creative solutions to some of the challenges my organization faces. If i’m not in an organization that can support me to say challenging things, if i’m not in a place where bob that leads to my promotion rather than my demotion, or my being tradition or marginalization, yeah, exactly like it really takes a lot of ongoing work to support people of color and marginalized folks in in a workplace and to really buildup and, you know, empire their leadership rather than undermining them. What form can that support tape? I understand in terms of encouraging the voice, encouraging a voice that’s not traditional typical but what other are there other things that employers could do to support to make that support explicit in the organization? What else do you like? My suggestion is one one is model as much as you can that it’s ok to bring your hosts off to work. And secondly, humility and talking as little as possible. It’s really there there’s so many beautiful voices that just aren’t heard on a regular basis. And if you could just sit and listen. What emerges to me? It fascinates me every single day. We have to spend another minute or so together see glamarys start, we started with you, we’re gonna we’re gonna book and you’re gonna be booking wrap up with you in a little less than a minute or so, you know, some encouragement and some motivation, okay? So that’s that’s the way to make a change to make change, to encourage the diversity that we’re talking about? Yeah, so again, for for within my work environment, we ended up sort of like creating our own way talk about this whole, like, sea at the table sort of thing, and so we just ended up making our own table, right? And so i think from there we have a fork work force development program, and we’re just were, you know, bringing people in from the community and giving him those skills, you know, that they’re not having the opportunity to get in other places, and our hope is that we’re just we’re going to be able to flood sort of in our field with eventjournal child held just flood the field with, you know, women of color, people of color who are going to be ready to go on to the leadership roles so that’s like a peace that we’re really that’s. How sort of were targeting that. So i really appreciate that approach. All right, that was glamarys azevedo she’s, a professional development specialists mamatoto village. And next to her in the middle is sabelo kayman north american digital campaign manager at three. Fifty dot org’s. And next to me is raja agarwal, president of provos provoc provoc provoc look provoc provoc provoc group provoke provoke. Thank you, roger. Good sport. This is an interview. Is sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donordigital and fund-raising software for non-profits. I wanna thank you so much for being with twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. Thank you so much to our panel. I need to take a break. Wittner. Cps. You know what cps do? Nine nineties and audits mostly, right? Although wagner does go beyond the numbers hear me say that it’s true started wagner, cpas dot com get comfortable in one dimension. Then go human-centered he coached whom? He’s been a guest. I know him. You know him? He’s been on multiple times. He’s. A good guy. No pressure is not like that. His number is. At wagner cps dot com, which is where you get started now. Time for tony steak too. Did you hear the one about the ninety six year old secretary who gave eight million dollars to two non-profits in her will? That’s? Not a joke. She spent her career at a law firm in new york city. It got it was very small when she started, it got very big. When she retired, she invested based on what her bosses were investing in. Because back when she started, secretaries would handle would do the investments. So she bought a little bit of the same things they were buying decades and decades ago left to charities. Ah, little over eight million dollars here in new york city. Very compelling story. Um, and i have an important takeaway from it about the way you treat your modest donors. She turns out she was never a donor, but the takeaway deals with treating your modest donors well. And to get that takeaway, watch my video it’s at tony martignetti dot com now it’s time for board change agents, and in order to do that, we have to bring in greg cohen returning greg cohen. Also multiple time guest he’s, associate director at cause effective the non-profit capacity building organization, he’s provided coaching and training to the boards and staffs of hundreds of clients. His expertise includes converting resistant boards into competent and effective fundraisers and developing board. Meaders he’s at greg cause cause effective is at cause effective and cause effective dot or ge he’s in the studio. Welcome back, greg cohen. Thanks. Really happy to be here. That’s a pleasure. This was a bit of a last minute thing, but i’m glad it worked out so well, sure. Um, so board change agents okay? Or board members as change agents. Um, how can boardmember is be effective as change agents. So this starts with how to think about your board overall, i’m going to say ah and step into a room and executive directors and say, list your top three headaches and, you know, that board is going to show up one or two on that relationship has got a complaint about their board. So the first thing that i say to exact directors is, remember it’s, not about the people. This is something systemic boardmember zar, your chief volunteers and you want to reflect on are you creating an environment that brings the best out in each? Boardmember and they’ll say, well, they’re tired, they’ve never i didn’t recruit them to fundraise, but now i need it. So the first thing to think about is when i’m thinking about changing my board am i changing the rules of the game for the people who are in the room? That’s the first thing where i might have recruited them where fund-raising wasn’t a priority now it’s important to me because my organization’s grown and then as we bring in new people, we don’t want to bring people in to that tired, bored culture where they sink down to the lowest common denominator. So here’s my theme, which is you recruit people who are ready to help you change that culture, you talk about it explicitly in the recruitment process and then you bring them in such a way that they start to provide leadership from the get go ng there your ally for change? Why would they want to come to a board? That’s i’m going to call it dysfunctional. You don’t use that word, but i don’t know lackadaisical, underperforming under performing. That’s okay, right now, that sack less judgment that’s still judgment, but right says it sounds harsh. Okay, why would why would they want to come to a board that’s like that? And and be the firebrand and the troublemaker, right? Well, it all starts with mission, right? Like everything else like fund-raising why people volunteer, they care about the work. So when you go out and recruit, you have tohave a narrative of change. We’ve built our organization up, we had a group of dedicated founding board members who put in a lot of time in the beginning, they were volunteers when we didn’t have staff, but now we’ve grown, we have staff and we need a governing board that’s that’s paying attention to the high level issues and out there finding money for us, right? So we don’t have that now. We don’t have that now and very often, as we were crew there’s a really fear if we talk about the fund-raising requirements now, they’ll never join the board. So first is front and center, so the narrative has to be we’ve grown, we have exciting opportunities in front of us. We need a board that matches the and can help add capacity so we can realize all our potential. So what’s offgrid teo just what’s offered to those candidates is the chance to contribute to building the organization to the next level. Okay, so it does. It needs to be someone that loves this mission and that’s true for any board. Candid. Okay, well, well, yes, it ought to be right. Okay, i think sometimes any good, but i’ve seen i’ve seen recruitment just on expertise. We need a lawyer. Well, i know a popular i know a lawyer. Who’s got a good network and she’ll raise a lot of money. So let’s bring her in, but but she doesn’t know the organization, and that leads to disappointment. She’s ended up doing it as a favor to a friend or something like that. Okay, all right, so this they love the mission and you can make very plain to them the gap between where we need the board to be to make that mission excel and where we are right and you’re going to say that you’re going to be that you’re going to be the bridge. You’re going to walk into a room where you’re going to see behaviors that are different than the ones that you were trained in, if you’re coming in, say, through united way or or or another program, i’m bringing you in to be a partner to change that board culture through your excitement about the mission, and you’re fresh ideas, okay? And people are going to look at you. Well, they’re going to be prepared. We’re going to get that because this is the existing board members need to be prepared for when we cover that now. Yeah, because otherwise they’re gonna be daggers in the back of this, only their boardmember are people just going to sit and watch right off my board? Models are consensual and collaborative. It’s not the it’s, not dallas it’s, not the back room. I was there to change this to change person changed person the reporters and prepare the worst is that they pay no attention and they behave the way they did, eh? So what we need so first of all, i’m putting the executive director and whoever’s on the board who’s there, partner in the recruitment in an active role of really thinking about the process of change. So you know there’s a science of change management, we have to articulate a narrative that says we’re on a journey with this organization. The needs for the board’s involvement have changed. We honor what you’ve done, we hope that you will step up to those new needs, but we’re moving forward regardless because the mission in the organization calls for it. So that’s the context and then we need some people with new skills, new networksnew capabilities and ah, willingness to fundraise. We hope you will join us. This is to the existing board, but but if not, we’ll find another place for you advisory board honoree board many forms aboard heaven that you can put people on, but we’re going forward, and we’re going to bring in new folks who are ready for this. Now, we’ve gotta have some allies on the board. We’re going, we’re going, ah, validate this message when it comes from the ceo executive director, i mean, you need is not one ideally suit. This can’t be a surprise, right? I mean, you have good leadership. Ideally, the chair of the board would be idealware well, it’s often you have a very tired from here. That’s the that’s, the source of the trouble you’re tired, you need one or two people and see the need for the change. You know where the allies they don’t have to be officers. Ok, is your back channel before this? Before this change announcement you can and you crack on with transparency. But that’s another conversation. It doesn’t have to be back channel. But you do have to find people who say who actually are the voice in the boardroom of the need for change. It’s more effective if it comes from appear then from the staff. Even the executive director. Okay, better coming from them. I feel like this board is that this is the is this a new business? They raise their hand. I feel like this board is not. I am one of the m one of the one or two. Yeah, sees the trouble. Right? I feel like the new business. I’m raising my hand. I feel like this board is underperforming way. Don’t raise the money we were had, like forty or fifty or sixty percent giving every year among the board. We’re not bringing in our networks. Well, i don’t. I don’t see excitement. On the board about the mission, we’re not engaged with what’s happening on the ground by identifying some potential. Is this is this how it happens? And then? Well, so that that’s the observation is but we have so much that we could do for our clients in this era, we have a waiting list, our staff is performing greatly. How do we talk to each other about bringing the necessary resource is and providing the oversight and stewardship of this organization that’s ready for takeoff? And we need to examine ourselves to see, are we in a place to do that, or do we need to step aside and bring in new people now? Somebody other than the one or two right? I think we’re doing fine. I don’t i don’t see the troubles your eye, all the reports we get are that are the people are fed, are you? Our recipients are benefiting? We’re making impact in the community? Uh, i like the way the board meetings run the preparation for them. I don’t i don’t see these troubles that you’re that you’re kicking up. If if if if if all is well, then no reason to change. The border let’s presume, but there actually is going to be just fine with the resistance. Yeah, so the idea is that we’re having to create a sense of urgency in the boardroom that one of two things is the case, something that we value about our programs and our services will be lost if we don’t get more involved or something or more importantly, and we hope when there’s opportunity and a group is flourishing, things that we want to call into existence components of our strategic plan, expansion of services won’t happen until we step forward. As aboard the staff has exhausted its resource is now the board must play its full governance and fund-raising role, that condition of urgency must be present or it’s rational that people don’t change their behaviour. Ok, urgency, okay, um, let’s, go back to the coast and then it just to say there needs to be a narrative in the boardroom, you know, brought by the staff and those allies that makes it clear that there’s a need for change on an organizational basis. It’s not about the performance of individual boardmember no finger pointing, no blame. We’ve grown up the organizational. Curb the board needs to now catch up with where the organization is that’s a very common situation that the growth of the organization’s development moves faster than the boards and then the board needs to catch up, and some people have put in their service and they’re tired. They don’t want to step up or they need help. And that’s where bringing in some new folks in new energy, new talents, new networks as change agents really could make the difference. You can’tjust reform your existing complacent board without bringing some new element into it. Ok, ok, all right. But i want to address the resistance because right, everybody not going toe be subservient. Go on. All right, all right. So i feel like very articulate with that. Thank you. Alright, let’s, go back to these potential change hs. Now, um, how do we identify the skills that that we’re looking for? The personality? I mean, that’s got the personality is a bigger deal in recruiting these couple of change agents than it has been in recruiting our board for the past fifteen years. Right? So what we’re looking for, right? So first of all, i i said i don’t kick them my eyesight, the executive who’s, your hands, but not your feet, the executive director and those allied board members are are in a place of being the helping b the agents of change. This is an active strategic process, not a passive one, so the recruitment process is of the past may not work up front. You’re looking for people who have experience running and motivating teams. If fund-raising is important, then you want prior fund-raising experience and you want to talk about your goals so it starts with those doing the recruitment, being able to describe clearly what they’re looking for going beyond just we need a lawyer who cares about kids who’s willing to write a check that this is being more demanding and looking for the kind of people you’re bringing to the board table because you need them to drive change. All right? They got the motivational articulate. Yep, right? They’ve got to be pretty insightful to. They’ve got to be ableto handle the pushback not only in the public meeting, but you know, in their committees that they’re going to get assigned to in any back channel communication that might be from other boardmember zoho resistant there’s got to be able to manage yeah, i’m not sure i want to be the manager now. It’s nice if you find someone that’s a very high level skill, but they need to not need credit to be able to lead from behind and put their energy and heimans and they need to understand the background of the need for organizational change. So to understand the journey that we’re helping, they take the board on complete value back-up buy-in so that that’s what i don’t have to have served on the board before, but they have to be good listeners on dh and willing to work as allies. Let’s, take a break and ah, that is for tell us, tell us monium lee elementary school foundation receiving a monthly donation from tell us for the credit card processing of a company one of our parents owns likely the easiest donation source we’ve ever secured. End quote the elementary school that’s, the monthly pass of revenue i’ve been telling you about think of people who are close to your organization who owned businesses. You start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tell us and go from there. Now, back to aboard change agents with greg cohen. Um, but greg has to sit tight while i do live. Listen, love and podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections. I’m sorry sam prompted me. Yes, the live listener love goes out. Where is it? Cut where’s it going to? Well, it goes to the universe, but specific places within within that that universe. Staten island, multiple new york, new york. Always count on that brooklyn, new york. Um all right, s o we got where’s, where’s, the bronx and queens. We don’t see them today. Alright, historia. We’ve got a story. A queens. Is there? Where’s, the bronx? Not checking in. Well, let’s. Not focus on the negative. Live love to the four boroughs that are with us. Queens, brooklyn, manhattan multiple and staten island. Also down to tampa, florida. A state kongers, new york. Lots of new yorkers love it. Um, hubert, north carolina live love to north carolina. You know, i love north carolina. We’ve got listener in iraq. Iraq is occasionally with us, but not too often live love to you out in shanghai seems to be our only china listeners. Shanghai ni hao, let’s, go to the u k we don’t know which country is masked. We don’t know the country all right. United kingdom, listener live listener love to you and ah, it covers it so far. All right, that’s, the live love and the podcast pleasantries on the heels of that has to come three over twelve thousand pushing thirteen thousand listeners weekly. That’s not a monthly number. That’s each week each episode very glad that you’re with us. Pleasantries to the podcast audience and the affiliate affections to our am and fm station listeners. Also throughout the country. Affections to you. I’m very glad that you are listening. Analog. Never let that am fm die, it’s never it’s it’s not going to die. It may be declining. It’s never going to die. Media is too personal. You’re with us affections to you now for greg going. Thank you for being patient. Um, go show the gratitude, you know, all right, okay, let’s, go back to these people. Where do we find? Where do we? Okay, right. Thank you. Thank you. Big request i was school past screening past screening, right? Where do we find? Where do we find him? So typically people think, well, we only have the usual circle of people and they go out and i’m going to use a dating analogy, and so and people go out and right away they think about asking people to become board members after they meet them. But being a board members really the most rarefied form of ask it’s, easier to donate it’s. Easier to be a volunteer it’s. Easier to come to a gala it’s. Easier to be on a host for much time limited not a big ask way at the end of the spectrum for engagement with a non-profit is being a boardmember time, money, reputation, all those things right? So don’t rush into the process, our suggestion for a processes that if you can’t find candidates, think about people who are the well connected people with for people of a certain age. The best roller texas those big role in texas who know everybody in their industry they’d never be your boardmember may because they’re already overcommitted or they’re not quite right, but you go to them with that narrative of your organizations, growth and aspirational future and the kinds of people that you need in the board room to help you get there and you ask them, who does that make you think of in your circles? The more specific you are? We’re looking for a person of color who’s the sepia with a fortune five hundred company, or maybe has technology knowledge, the more likely people going to come to mind in their mental roller decks and give you a suggestion that you say, would you mind calling that person and opening the door for me to go meet with them? They’ll be happy to write. So now, instead of just going to people who are maybe maybe not board candidates, you’re using other people’s networks and using their ability to filter through their contacts to suggest prospects. One, two you’re getting in front of influential people with your aspirational story about where your organization is so it’s a cultivation event, even even if they don’t give you any names or they give you a few, you’ve created the opportunity in front of that person to bring them up to date and show yourself a strategic so that’s a key thing which is don’t rush into rushing to prospects and saying, would you become a boardmember think about some indirect ways and also then cultivate as you screen. Okay, excellent. And you’re doing this with people who know people who have exactly good networks. Good role, exactly right? Good, strong. You can even add ad hoc people to your nominating committee who aren’t board members to help for a limited period time in this process of identifying and screening people. But now these people are coming from your from those folks networks they don’t know you’re or go the way we just said they gotta love your mission ten minutes ago s so we got a quaint thes potential board members with the good work we’re doing and the much better work we could be doing and make them the bridge between those two, right? Exactly. So this is this is not going to be a six week process. No, this is where the best practice for board recruitment coming. Like we need a process. Teo, introduce people to our work. Have at least two interviews i would say with the e d and one with the boardmember i like three. I like to different board encounters, so people offer different judgments, and and the candidate gets to see the different people that be interacting with and then a third thing, which is essential, they have to go out and see the work. Now, when i say this to executive rector’s, first of all, they hold their head in the hands i need boardmember tomorrow. Yeah, well, that’s not realistic, right? The second thing is, if the person doesn’t have time to participate in this process, they’re not gonna have time to show up to board meetings and show up prepared and take a leadership role. So these air enforcing them to show their commitment exactly for you before you invite them? Yes. And they may in good will be excited about your work and the idea of being a boardmember but not really testing it against their reality. These are threshold measures that left both sides figure out. Is this really going to work now? I just heard this at one of the ntcdinosaur views we haven’t played this one. Yet we’re talking about hiring. There was someone who likes three, three, four interviews long hiring processes so that you’re that you’re making the candidate prove their commitment to your mission before you offer him a job there. You got long hiring process, you can’t show up for the fourth time, you know, we will find someone who can well, and that sounds crazy to some people t ask for that, but more often than not, i hear from people we recruited someone looked like a great person on paper, but then we’re disappointed they didn’t show or they didn’t bring them for their full selves to the table when they did show, and you would say, you have yourself to blame because you didn’t you didn’t adequately, uh, you know, they’re not getting their commitment and it’s like a job interview, but the power relationship is more equal. You want to carry out a transparent project process so that either side at some point can say, you know what? I’d like to be helpful, but not as a boardmember maybe i’ll serve on a committee on the host committee or a board committee without being a full member. Excellent. That’s a home run if you don’t let him on the board if they’re going to be end up being one, these disappointments very important i’m now seeing the time that’s required, and i don’t feel like i have that kind of time to be aborted. I’d like to help you some other what there’s, another component arches, you’re not wasting any of your time in the search sound. First of all, you’re going to have to go through a lot of candidates. Most people don’t have the time to be boardmember the best ones already committed. Yeah, right, but what we want is a process that says, i’m i love what i hear about your guy position i love what i see, i can’t be a boardmember and then you want to say, well, there is another way you could be involved. So the idea is you have a spectrum of involvement with boardmember ship at the end that the most demanding part, but you’re actually trying to get everybody you connect with who responds to your mission to be connected in some way. Donor-centric attendee volunteer, a member of a board committee without being on the board, there’s so many ways to engage those people, so you’re not losing that time because they didn’t become a boardmember you’ve added people who are supporters, but maybe not at that very demanding level of very boardmember all right, what do you say to that ceo like you saying ceo but executive director that says, i need boardmember is next week, what do you tell them? I need to raise the money for my kidscollege education next week, but it’s not gonna happen in a week things take to do it well and strategically, it takes time. If you start to do this on a systematic year round basis, you start to build the bench, you should have a regular process cubine ongoing process, al, you’re watching these people who are volunteers, and you’re treating them well and maybe in two thousand eighteen, they didn’t have the time to be a boardmember, but in two thousand nineteen, all of a sudden they discover this is one of the most important things in my civic life. I’m ready to step up so once you start the process, it’s really like farm team through teo being a boardmember it gets easier and easier. Because you’re feeding it it’s, not an ad hoc one shot think ongoing exactly be are going through your right, and as you revitalize your board, you’re placing this function in the governance slash nominating committee. So also it’s moving partially off the shoulders of the e d this should be in a well performing bored the revitalisation of the board process through bringing new people on it should be aboard function, driven by board members. How do we empower them? We just have a couple minutes left. How do we empower them once they’re on the board to hit the ground running as change agents? Great question, so they’re at their at their point, twenty minutes there at their point of maximum enthusiasm and then begin a one, right? So we actually say, work out a plan for engagement, right? So here here, the things that are coming up where we’re going to want to do fund-raising what are your ideas? Where can you be involved? Here are openings on committees, what most interests you were ready to make you committee chair or if you’re not ready, we have a boardmember who will mentor you so that within six months you could play a bigger role. So you’re actually reviewing all your needs with the person right up front and engaging them to commit up front rather than hang back a year, see how it goes, i’ll figure out my place. No, no, we want them engage from the gun. All right, actually, maximum, you mentioned mentor. You and i have been on you and i have talked about this before. Board he’s. Thirty seconds on the value of aboard, buddy. Absolutely essential. You know, particular someone’s. Never been on a board before they come in the room. There are all kinds of acronyms. There’s. An existing culture among that complacent board of friends and family or whatever it is you need. Someone who’s easing you in explaining what’s going on that’s a familiar face in the room when you walk in because you’ve met with them before. So aboard, buddy is an essential piece of that onboarding process. Very smart guy. We gotta leave it there. Greg cohen. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for sharing he’s at greg. 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