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Nonprofit Radio for March 29, 2021: Cure Communications Gaffes & Talking Mental Health In Your Workplace

My Guests:

Julie Ziff Sint, Claire Thomas & Shafali Rao: Cure Communications Gaffes
Our 21NTC coverage begins by explaining what to do after you put the wrong gala date in an email, or send a letter to the wrong segment. Might an intentional mistake improve open your open rate? Our panel is Julie Ziff Sint, Claire Thomas and Shefali Rao, all from Sanky Communications.

 

 

 

Dan Berstein: Talking Mental Health In Your Workplace
Also from 21NTC, Dan Berstein helps you avoid a different gaffe: Saying the wrong things when faced with challenging behaviors or mental health disclosures. He’s got easy-to-follow strategies. Dan is founder of MH Mediate.

 

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[00:02:22.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into zero Estonia if I had to mouth the words you missed this week’s show Cure Communications Gaffes. Our 21 NTC coverage begins by explaining what to do after you put the wrong gala date in your email or send a letter to the wrong segment. Might an intentional mistake improve your open rate? Our panel is Julie’s. If ST Claire Thomas and Shefali Row, all from Sancti Communications and talking Mental Health in your workplace, also from 21 NTC, Dan Burstein helps you avoid a different gaffe, saying the wrong things when faced with challenging behaviors or mental health disclosures, he’s got easy to follow strategies. Dan is founder of M H. Mediate on tony State, too. How are you doing? We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is a cure. Communications gaffes. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC That’s the 2021 nonprofit technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. My guests at this session are Julie’s. If ST Claire Thomas and Shefali Row. They’re all with Sancti Communications. Julie is vice president of account and Strategic Services. Claire is copy director, and Shefali is senior copywriter. Welcome, Julie.

[00:02:22.57] spk_2:
Thanks for having us.

[00:02:23.81] spk_3:
Welcome to be here.

[00:02:32.24] spk_1:
So, uh, let’s see. So does everybody work for Julie? And then then And then Claire reports The Shefali is It doesn’t work like that. I’m sure it’s a very collegial place. Thank you. Community were totally lateral. Totally flat. Everybody gets the same pay. Everybody is exactly the same

[00:02:54.44] spk_2:
way. We’re really collaborative agency, but I work more on our strategic side of things. And Claire and Shefali are two of our genius copywriters who manage our clients messaging.

[00:03:37.34] spk_1:
Okay, I think it’s important to flush this out. So give folks a feel for swanky communications because they might be working with you someday. Your workshop topic is my bad to all. Good. How to repair a mistake in donor communications. So, like if you dropped an email with a mistake in it, or you sent out an email about the gala, and it has the wrong date or the wrong time. That’s that’s That’s a particularly egregious one. We would think we would catch that in copyrighting. So, um, Shefali, let’s start with you. How does these things happen? First of all, like suppose that example? Wrong time in the gala invitation. How could that How could that possibly happen when we have multiple eyes on projects on communications?

[00:04:14.34] spk_4:
Yeah, you would think that it wouldn’t, but sometimes it just misses all sets of five. I actually gave this example, even in the conference, but I used to be a journalist, and I used to be at the news desk copy editing and one day on the front page in a headline. The word public was missing an L. And that just went out the next day. And, um, the good news is that we have a system we have, like, strategies in place where we kind of make those mistakes work for us. Which is really what our workshop was about.

[00:04:18.19] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, you could have some fun. I don’t know. Pubic might be tough. to have fun you can have fun

[00:04:22.29] spk_4:
with

[00:04:36.74] spk_1:
without getting carried away. I mean, I think making light of a mistake, a gaffe. I use that all the time. I mean, you’re suffering with a lackluster host, so don’t be surprised if this comes up three or four times in a half an hour. Um, like the banging? I don’t know. You know, I have you here that banging

[00:04:42.14] spk_3:
a

[00:05:03.04] spk_1:
little. Okay, it’s It’s a hammer. There’s guys working on my stairs. You might hear vacuuming because they’re very fastidious about cleaning up. You might hear some, uh, sawing drill drill. Uh, circular saw type work. Um, not that that’s a gaffe, but, you know, it’s background noise. We got to call it out. If I can’t hide it, I’m gonna flaunt it, so well. Shit. I gotta ask, What did the paper do with, uh, public to

[00:05:20.94] spk_4:
pubic? And then we printed into the collection the next day. That’s all you can really do. That’s not the fun way. I mean, it’s not a fun where it was pretty upset about it, but we have actually had fun with some of our mistakes in the bus. Right?

[00:05:24.44] spk_1:
Okay. Who wants to share a mistake that, uh, so

[00:05:27.40] spk_3:
one of them One of them was in the footer. You know of an email and, you know, these things go out all the time, and and everybody is real careful about the

[00:05:36.00] spk_4:
content of the email, and And

[00:05:46.34] spk_3:
was the subject line perfect? And you kind of forget to be as careful about the footer and in the footer to the donors. It said eight cents of every dollar goes to programs services.

[00:05:51.34] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah.

[00:05:52.64] spk_3:
Now, most people already wouldn’t even see

[00:05:55.27] spk_1:
that Most people are going to look at the footer,

[00:07:01.34] spk_3:
right? This and this is an animal shelter. So? So when when it was caught, we were like, Okay, so we’re So what we did was we said, Okay, let’s let’s send it up. But let’s stay in character for how the donors know us. And we we have with this with this, um, animal shelter. We have a really fun, friendly voice. And so we sent out a correction email, and we used it to educate donors on what the truth is. And what we said was forgive us if you are, forgive us for our mistake. Um and we try. We’re pause P a w positively horrified. We made this mistake because the truth is it’s 82 cents of your dollar that goes to programs services, and we’re really proud of that. And then we talked about how we care for donor services. But we kept the really used pictures of cute puppies and kittens and, you know, it was all friendly and fun, and it was a good chance to educate the donors on what the actual You know how the organization uses donor resources. And,

[00:07:25.04] spk_2:
of course, the silver lining on that example and everything else is that when you do have an effective apology like that, um, you can have extraordinary engagement with your donors. So for that example that Claire just shared, we had over 50% open rate and almost a 5% click through rate, which is more than three times as high on both metrics as as you might hope to see.

[00:07:39.04] spk_1:
Yeah, Julie, I was going to go to you. Uh, so it sounds like the first thing you should do when you discover one of these gaffes is don’t panic,

[00:07:40.84] spk_2:
never panic. Panicking definitely does not help

[00:07:43.58] spk_1:
you accomplish your compound, right, you’ll send the wrong thing. You won’t think it through. You’ll blow the one chance you have to really fix it well, so keep your head on.

[00:08:35.44] spk_2:
Panicking definitely doesn’t help in any environment, I will say before, you know before you get there. It’s definitely worthwhile to have a comprehensive QA process. Um, and quality assurance process. Make sure that you’re going through steps to try to avoid the mistakes in the first place. But then, yeah, once the mistake happens, because no matter how good your quality assurance process is, mistakes will happen. Um, so when something does happen to be able to, like you said, don’t panic, figure out what was the mistake? What was what type of mistake was it? Is there an opportunity there? There might be a silver lining. There might be an opportunity. And how can you? How can you apologize in the most effective way? Or turn the mistake into make some lemonade from that lemon and really find a good silver lining there?

[00:08:58.34] spk_1:
What if someone is screaming at you? Maybe it’s a board member who just got the email. Maybe it’s the CEO. Whoever someone senior to you is furious about the mistake. Yeah, about them. Yeah, not about Not about what you’re wearing that day. But yeah,

[00:09:03.86] spk_3:
I’m just because the other problem is when the donor picks up the phone and starts to screen with you, right?

[00:09:20.34] spk_1:
Okay. It could be a donor, but I was trying to manage in the office first, but that’s a good one. Clear. We’ll get to. We’ll do that later. The secondary. The secondary market. Yeah, the other constituents. But how about right in your office? Uh, you know, a CEO or board member? Well, we’ll consider board members insiders for purposes of our conversation. What do you do there? Furious.

[00:09:49.54] spk_3:
Yeah. Yeah. And the first thing to do is to say, this is this isn’t all bad. There’s There’s probably an opportunity here. And we had a whole section on opportunities. Every every one of the case studies that we presented and the our speed round where people were talking about all these are the mistakes they made, you know, we talk about Well, there’s an opportunity there, like shuffle. You had some great ideas about opportunities.

[00:10:22.94] spk_4:
Yeah, and I mean, the first question you asked that the step was How does this happen? You know what I mean? Like, how do these mistakes happen? And they happen because there are human people at the other end of that happens like we all make mistakes. And sometimes the donor wants nothing more than to know that a person is at the other end of these communications. And that’s your opportunity right there to say sorry. Build a connection to make, like, some sort of personal, heartfelt apology. Um, and then you have a lasting connection with the donor.

[00:10:51.04] spk_1:
Claire, let me continue with you where we’ve got a furious supervisor here. Doesn’t it help to just also say, I’m sorry? I mean, I know, I know. I know. I made a mistake without trying to deflect or, you know, just even if it’s not 100% your mistake. Like if two other people read the copy also, but but the CEO is in your office in the moment. Oh, yeah. You just say I know, I know. We messed it up or I’m sorry. You know, I mean, just right, well,

[00:10:56.17] spk_3:
and and it is, you’re you’re absolutely right. But then there’s the other. The other mistake that you just alluded to when it was completely out of your control. Julie, talk about what happened with the USPS this year.

[00:11:30.54] spk_2:
Oh, my goodness. And so this is, you know, there are definitely issues that are outside of our control, right? So, you know there was for people who use Blackboard Online Express there was one year that it stopped taking donations on giving Tuesday. There was the black pod data breach last spring and summer. Gmail started hard bouncing in the middle of December this past year. And then, of course, in direct mail, USPS had delays and we had some of our clients were sending out holiday fundraising appeals at the very beginning of December. But then the seeds weren’t even received until the beginning of January. So if you’re mailing that,

[00:11:54.84] spk_3:
you think Yeah, I mean, there’s There’s a pissed off CEO pissed off client pissed off everybody that people didn’t The donors didn’t get the asks.

[00:11:58.54] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s

[00:13:06.94] spk_2:
outside. It’s outside of your control. But there are ways to make that into an opportunity. We had one client. They had sent out a mailing that talked about a December 31st, matching gift deadline, but people didn’t receive the mailings. Um, it bombed. And so we have brainstormed with them. What can we do to figure out a way around this? And we ended up doing an email campaign in early January that effectively said, We understand there were delays with the post service. We know that you may not have received our appeal letter. We would like to tell you that even though it said that the matching gift deadline was on December 31st we talked to the matching gift donor, and we’ve been able to extend it. Please make your contribution now, and so you know it’s not going to necessarily completely counter active. You know that’s not our mistake, but it’s not going to completely counteract that problem. But you can still look for a silver lining. You can still try to connect with the donors, show them that you are a human, show them that you’re all partners together for the mission, um, and then bring them back on board for for the mission.

[00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Claire, you you seem to be the one who raises the good hypotheticals. Alright, let’s let’s go outside now. I suppose it is a donor on the phone, so it’s not. It’s not a supervisor, but now it’s a donor. You know, maybe it’s maybe they’re the ones who maybe they’re the challenge donors who December 31st, you know, in January 3rd, they got the they got the challenging male or whatever it is, you have an upset donor or a very upset volunteer. How do you manage that?

[00:15:20.44] spk_3:
Well, first of all, remember that the fact that someone has picked up the phone and called you you have a dedicated donor on the other end of the line. This is a person who cared enough, cared enough about the work that you’re doing and is invested enough in the mission to pick up the phone and complain. So you’ve got someone on the phone who really cares, and then you kind of follow some basic steps. Remember feelings before solutions? Let them vent. Let them say whatever it is that made them angry and listen to it and be sympathetic and listen for opportunities to connect and then solve the problem. Sometimes it’s that it’s that the donor says, Well, I only wanted to be mailed once a year, and this is the third appeal I’ve gotten this year, and so you know you have a chance to draw them into a conversation and get them talking about why they care about the organization’s work, why this mission matters to them. Once they start talking about why they care, they usually talk themselves into wanting to give. I’ve been in the situation where I’ve been the person talking to the donor that was angry and letting them talk and then finding a way to, like, say, Well, that’s a really good point and I think we can We can address that mistake and then upgrading the donor getting them. That’s actually how I started in fundraising. I was. I was asked to call donors who were angry, find out what the problem was and and then just these were people who had pledged money, and we’re going to pay it off. I raised all the money they had pledged just by listening to them just by solving little problems that they had really small. Um and then they ended up being very dedicated, the organization, because again it’s what you’ve always said is that human human, you know, these are people on both sides of the equation. Philanthropy is, of course, the most human of acts.

[00:15:40.74] spk_1:
You all know the service recovery paradox.

[00:15:44.84] spk_3:
No,

[00:15:46.44] spk_1:
really, I haven’t. We

[00:15:49.33] spk_3:
do that. Pardon me? My suspicion that we actually do that.

[00:16:07.54] spk_1:
Well, yeah, you’re you. You could very well be a part of it, but, um, it’s bona fide. There’s research. The service recovery paradox is that someone for whom a mistake occurs and and has that mistake satisfactorily corrected will be more connected to the brand. I think I’ve seen it more on the commercial side will be more connected to the brand than someone for whom a mistake never occurred.

[00:16:20.14] spk_3:
Yeah,

[00:16:21.62] spk_1:
actually, you’re describing Claire like your clarity talking about upgrading people who were upset.

[00:16:28.24] spk_2:
There are a lot of psyche communications. We were founded by sinking pursuant. Um, back in the late seventies. And there are a lot of myths around Spanky Pearlington. Um, and many of them are not verified.

[00:16:42.65] spk_1:
Uh, thank you, man or a woman or

[00:16:44.76] spk_3:
she is a woman.

[00:16:49.84] spk_2:
Um, I think he was a nickname for Selma. Um, apparently, maybe that’s the new thing that we can learn for today. Um,

[00:16:54.61] spk_1:
I think

[00:16:55.60] spk_3:
I

[00:17:24.44] spk_2:
know so So There are a lot of a lot of myths around her in the industry, but one, and I have no idea if this is true. But I have been told that she used to plant mistakes and direct mail letters because there was an increased increased responses or an increased response rate or an increased giving. If there was a mistake in the letter, people would actually right back, correct it and send in their check while they were at it.

[00:17:26.56] spk_1:
That’s brilliant.

[00:17:27.84] spk_3:
It’s brilliant,

[00:17:43.84] spk_1:
right? They love you enough to point out like Claire was saying, they love you enough to point out your mistake. But then they might feel bad about not including a check. So you’re you’re you’re helping them get over the hurdle of, uh, whether to reply, you’re giving them a giving them an even better reason to reply. And by the way, they feel bad. If they if they only complain so they’ll give you money too well.

[00:18:05.94] spk_3:
And we writers like to believe that once somebody has noticed some kind of little mistake, they start reading for other mistakes, and then they actually get hooked into the message. Those of us who spend all our time crafting those messages. It’s our chance to hook them.

[00:18:13.44] spk_1:
Shefali, do you do you deliberately? Have you ever deliberately honest Now have you any deliberate mistake in?

[00:18:18.61] spk_4:
I have to say I’m having this conversation. I’m already thinking of, like subject lines that maybe you have a mistake, but not super obvious. But it would get people to just open the email.

[00:18:30.64] spk_1:
Wait, wait, I want to flush this out. We’re getting good advice. This is the stuff I love. A nonprofit radio. Actionable, actionable advice. What way?

[00:18:53.54] spk_4:
What’s an example? For example, I’m just thinking, What if the subject line just had somebody else’s name and you click on it? Because you think OK, this person made a mistake? That’s not my name. And then you open it and says, Just getting Of course we know you’re tell me because you are one of our most dedicated supporters,

[00:19:06.84] spk_1:
Okay, but they think they’re being voyeuristic by opening it up. It’s made for somebody else. I definitely want to check that out more so than I would read my own. The problem with

[00:19:09.64] spk_2:
tony that that that will be great with the donors. It may not be so great with that CEO that comes into your office yelling.

[00:19:24.34] spk_1:
Well, I should get approval in advance and say, Look, I want to want to test it. I want to test it exactly like we’re going to send 1000 that are that are misnamed than 1000 that are correctly named And, uh, let’s see. Let’s see which one pulls better. Which one clicks through better. You want to

[00:19:34.69] spk_3:
share one more?

[00:19:36.33] spk_1:
I have these copywriter minds think it’s amazing. Anything else occur to you while we’re talking?

[00:19:42.54] spk_4:
No, that’s it. I mean, new campaign idea in two minutes. I’m pretty happy with

[00:20:13.64] spk_1:
that. Yeah, right. Okay, well, we’re 17 minutes in, so try to try to up your game a little bit. Were already. You’re only one idea in 17 minutes. We’ve got to do a little better than that. Um all right, what else should we talk about? The crisis communications management is this This is this is no, I mean, that’s a crisis, but we’re now we’re moving to organizational crisis. Where the where the local paper headline and it’s not good. Who? Julie, you got You got a first bit of advice for that.

[00:22:10.54] spk_2:
Um so I think we we go back to where you started with before, which is always start with. Don’t panic. Um, for many of the organizations that we that we work with, one of the first things that we do is we talk to them about what is the rapid response plan? Um, it applies to if there’s a hurricane that impacts your services or if there’s a political situation that impacts your services or if there’s something in terms of internal politics where there’s something that is going to impact your reputation and you have that that rapid response plan. And it’s a question of, you know, we’ve given whole other talks about this and that it’s a whole other topic of conversation, but it is. It is really important, right? If you have the plan going in that you can deal with whatever the issues are, so you say Okay, who are the decision makers at the organization? What is the chain of command? Who are the people who we need to gather at the organization to figure out whether or not we respond? If we respond, what channels do we respond in what is the messaging of that response, right? And so you know that that really does have to depend on what is the situation. And in some some issues you don’t some problems, whether it’s a mistake internally, a mistaken communication or a one of these kind of rapid response publicity, something some situations will not require a response, and others do. And so it’s a question of what is the message? Is it something where, you know, if you actually do something really offensive, who is the right person to say something? Is it the executive director? Is it the chair of the board? Um, so so is it somebody who is a trusted individual who is the right signer for it? What is the right message? You know, we do. We do often. I will say, use humor when we are crafting an apology. Claire Claire talked about that example of Please forgive us from an animal shelter. You’re not going to do that if it’s something really offensive, you

[00:22:22.60] spk_1:
don’t want to. Yeah,

[00:22:24.30] spk_4:
I

[00:22:30.54] spk_2:
mean, you never know, but you want to be very human. Talk about it. Ideally, you want to be real explain. Here’s the situation and and have a very real genuine apology. What?

[00:22:56.84] spk_1:
Okay, what if at the outset, you don’t You don’t have enough facts. I mean, can you Can you come out and say we can’t comment right now? You know, we’re still looking into whatever the situation is, and we don’t want to say anything inappropriate. So give us 24 hours or something like that. Well,

[00:23:34.54] spk_3:
and committing to transparency in that process, I think is going to go a long way to saying we’re still figuring this out. We want you to know we’re on it. Were These are the steps we’ve already taken. Here’s a step. There is the next step we’re taking, and we’re going to tell you what’s going on. You know, you’re going to hear about this. Um, and just just to reassure them anytime you’re you’re dealing with somebody you’re dealing with donor group, they’ve given you their money. This is this is an act of trust. You have to you have to work to keep that trust, um, to make sure it’s, you know, earned. So you don’t want to lose that,

[00:23:49.04] spk_2:
and transparency is important. But you’re also then messaging them and saying to them as a donor. You are. You are our partner in executing our mission. You are part of the organization. We owe you an explanation. And we need you to help us get through this. We need you to continue to support, um, you know, shelter, animals, homeless youth, whatever the population is that you are providing services to you, our our partner in supporting this mission. And we need you to stand with us.

[00:24:11.94] spk_4:
Yeah, and the more authentic and personal it is, it’s also it’s more of its transparency. But it’s also assurance that not just like it’s not just we have your best interest isn’t just that hot, but it’s also you’re in the know about what’s happening in the organization. Like Julie said, you’re a partner

[00:25:33.54] spk_1:
building on that trust that Claire was talking about. Yeah. Yeah, right. You have that trust in the bank you don’t wanna you don’t wanna exploit it, uh, and squander it, which, you know, conflicting messaging will do. I think too much delay. Depending on the situation, you know, too much delay. Then the story gets ahead of you, and I’m envisioning something really bad, you know, and then somebody else controls the narrative, and you’ve You’ve lost your opportunity. You know, those those things are bad. And that’s that’s a squandering of good faith, squandering of trust. All right, well, that’s that. That’s the trust to that Claire you talked about when we were talking about the gaffes. You know, people love you so much that they’re going to let you know that you made a mistake. Those are those are the most concerned, Like most invested people, the ones who don’t care, we’re gonna write off like, uh, another. Another problem with these people, you know, something like that. But the ones who really care, we’re gonna say, How could they let this happen? Do they know? You know? So, yeah, they’re invested their invested. All right. Um, what else are we talking about? We got a couple more minutes. We don’t have to wrap up whatever we covered yet.

[00:25:38.94] spk_3:
Well, one of the fun things we talked about not fun at all. It was how to apologize appropriately.

[00:25:45.24] spk_1:
Okay, well, you gave a good example of the animal shelter. Were,

[00:26:02.84] spk_3:
But if it’s offensive, what we’ve all noticed in, you know, in our media consumption in the last couple of years. Is all of these people, uh, providing apologies? You know, apologies.

[00:26:25.34] spk_1:
Backhanded apologies, if backhanded apology. If anyone was offended. Exactly, I didn’t intend it. And I regret that they’re offended. So it’s like it’s like their fault. It’s your fault for being offended, right? I regret that you’re offended, you know? All right, talking about her one. Horrible. Yeah,

[00:26:36.14] spk_3:
it’s horrible. And we actually said, Be sure if someone if someone said something offensive, be sure they say I offended. And I apologize.

[00:26:37.31] spk_1:
We should follow, you know, making human. There’s a human behind this apology. Not it wasn’t written by a

[00:26:43.58] spk_4:
robot. You know, it’s not like a template apology. Yeah, 100. An apology

[00:26:50.44] spk_1:
if anyone was offended. I’m sorry that they are regret that they are people who won’t even say step. Probably won’t even say sorry. I regret that. It’s unfortunate that you are

[00:27:01.19] spk_3:
all

[00:27:16.04] spk_1:
right. All right. What else you want to, um Let’s see. Anybody who wants to take us out with, uh, parting parting advice for the Let’s stick with the Gaff. I like that. That was the most animated part. The somebody take us out with good gaffe advice.

[00:27:19.24] spk_3:
Well, I’ll tell you one of the things we had fun coming up with Shefali and I, um, included. We gave a little bit of conference swag in some some checklists and things that people

[00:27:31.03] spk_1:
can take.

[00:28:21.14] spk_3:
And we also provided a little freebie five subject lines to try if you made a mistake. So this is how this is how to get somebody to open your email apology. And so we came up with we came up with. Well, this is awkward. Um, let’s see if we can get our apology right. You deserve our best. You didn’t get it. Can you forgive us? Name of donor and then my favorite. I think this is shit follies. Um, the email you were actually supposed to get name. Okay, So just kind of helping people out. We have. We have unfortunate reasons. Were knowing that all of those emails are successful. Um, so a

[00:28:35.84] spk_1:
lot of communications is gonna be a lot of mistakes. I mean, it’s going to happen. It’s humans. You don’t you don’t strive for them. Obviously you strive not to like Julie was saying, but but with QA. But it’s going to happen now. What about this? I don’t like I don’t like teasing nonprofit radio listeners, and then they don’t get anything. What about this checklist you mentioned? So

[00:29:03.24] spk_2:
those five subject lines along with a variety of other things, including some of the most common QA mistakes to watch for, um, at sinking dot com slash ntc 21 you can download a pdf that has whole bunch of good checklist for both avoiding mistakes. And then what to do if you made a mistake.

[00:29:07.44] spk_1:
Okay,

[00:29:13.54] spk_2:
so that was Thank you. Slash And so sink e ink dot com slash ntc 21.

[00:29:20.54] spk_1:
Got it and sank is s a N k y. Thank you dot com slash ntc 21. All

[00:29:24.33] spk_3:
right.

[00:29:43.34] spk_1:
Thank you. Think as opposed to what I said, which was Thank you. Thank you, Link. All right, Nobody talked. Now nobody talked. Thank e ink dot com slash ntc 21 You betcha. Thank you. All right. I don’t like cold, madam. Non profit your listeners. Alright, Good. So they can get the resource there. We’re gonna leave it there. Julie’s if sent Vice President of Accounts and Strategic Services. Claire Thomas, Copy Director Shefali Rao, senior copywriter all at Sancti Communications. Thank you very much. Wonderful.

[00:30:01.56] spk_3:
Thank you so much Fun.

[00:32:49.14] spk_1:
Real pleasure. I enjoyed it. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC 2021 Nonprofit Technology Conference where we are sponsored by We should be sponsored by sank Communication with all these shout outs I’m giving, but we’re not. We’re sponsored by turn to communications sank e ink dot No, not spanking dot com Turn to communication. Turn hyphen two dot c o responsible. I turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot c o thanks to each of you. Thank you very much. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications relationships turn to has the relationships with media outlets, journalists, even bloggers podcasters like me they have the outlets to get you placed When there’s a reason for you to be in the news. There’s some news hook that they can grab and they can talk to the Chronicle of Philanthropy, CBS Market Watch, et cetera. They’ve got the existing relationships and they’ll leverage them to your advantage because you’re their client. You get in the media, turn to communications. Turn hyphen two dot c o It’s time for Tony. Take two. How are you? How are you doing? Have you had a vaccine? How’s your family doing? Your family been vaccinated? I’m interested. I’m interested in how listeners are doing. I sent this out asking folks who get the insider alert our weekly insider alert. And I got a bunch of responses back. People. People told me how they’re doing. Tell me what’s going on, How they’ve been what? What It’s like, uh, planning to go back to work, etcetera. So I turned it to listeners. That’s you. How are you doing? How’s your family? Let me know. You can use my email. Here it is. It’s not gonna be able to use it and give it to you tony at tony-martignetti dot com. Tony at tony-martignetti dot com Let me know how you are That is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for nonprofit radio. Here is talking mental health in your workplace. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC, The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. My guest now is Dan Burstein. He is founder at M H. Mediate. Dan. Welcome to our coverage of 21 NTC.

[00:32:59.94] spk_0:
Thank you very much for having me.

[00:33:15.94] spk_1:
Pleasure. Absolute pleasure. We’re talking about something that’s important. That’s not talked about enough. Your session is talking mental health in a virtual workplace. There’s there’s stigma around mental health. Is it? Is it Is it worse now in a

[00:35:38.34] spk_0:
virtual world? Um, I would say that, and I’ll just say, I’ll just say that, you know, my background is I’m a mediator and I do work to help people talk about mental health. But I also personally live openly with bipolar disorder. And I would say that stigma is a funny thing, because when we think about stigma, we think about well, do people have a negative attitude towards someone having a mental illness? And as time has gone on the general climate of negative attitudes to someone having a mental illness, I believe is shifted so people are more accepting of the idea that someone might have a mental health problem and we need to work with the fact that everybody in the workplace has mental health needs of some kind and people might need take a personal day or something. The interesting thing is, what kinds of ideas do people have about what do you do when you see that somebody may or may not have a mental health problem? And that’s where so much talk has happened during the pandemic, where, UM, people are saying, Well, what do we do? How do we pay attention to our co workers? How do we notice if there’s a mental health problem and help them? Their statistics out that about half of people have some kind of mental health symptoms now during the pandemic. And so there’s a lot of people have these good intentions that they want to find a way to support someone who has a mental health problem. But the way that they offer that support might actually be stigmatizing. And, um, one way of doing that is if you assume someone needs help. So if someone hears I have bipolar disorder, or even if someone notices, I’m having personal issues at work, if they approach me with the assumption that I need their help, that that’s paternalism and that’s one kind of stigma, another type of stigma and I’ll end it right there is, um, another type of stigma is, if you believe, for instance, Oh, well, Dan has bipolar disorder, but if he goes to the doctor and he takes his medicine, Dan will be fine. Where you that’s That’s an accepting idea. But that’s not how it works for everyone, because I have a choice about how to take care of my mental health. And plenty of people don’t get better even when they take medicine, because they have side effects or treatment resistance. And it’s a difficult journey for them. And so sometimes there’s an oversimplification of we have all the answers for someone’s mental health. Now you just need to come tell HR tell somebody, and we’ll be able to get you the help you need. Use the employee assistance plan. You’ll get your help, and we have it all figured out. And that creates a lot of stigma as well, because it puts that pressure on people to have their mental problems figured out or solved.

[00:35:59.64] spk_1:
Okay, so we want to. We want to be able to say the right things and avoid these Gaffs around dealing with folks who may need help and you said during the pandemic, What’s the statistic? Like as many as 50% of people have have some mental health needs. Intervention needs. Doing what

[00:36:56.43] spk_0:
I would say is 100% of people have mental health needs. So that means, you know, everybody has stressful days. They get to have worried, overwhelming, take care of ourselves like we’re all in a spectrum. In a normal year, one in five people will have a diagnosable mental health problem. So that’s what a normal year looks like. It’s about 20% of people will have a diagnosable problem now with the pandemic, it’s been. About half of people have been reporting mental health symptoms of some kind, and that’s for a number of reasons. That’s partly because of the social isolation, the fear of the illness, getting sick from the pandemic. Um, you know, losing your job. I mean, so many things are happening that are possible stressors that can trigger someone to have a mental health problem. So putting it all together, the data has shown that about half of people are having some kind of mental health symptoms that they’re reporting.

[00:37:09.23] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So yeah, 2.5 times as much as a as a as a normal year.

[00:37:10.53] spk_0:
All right? Exactly. So it’s more relevant now than ever. Accept that we all always have mental health stuff going on in some degrees. So I like to say it’s always relevant all the time for us to do.

[00:38:08.32] spk_1:
Yeah, fair point that. Everybody. You’re right. 100% of people have mental health needs. That could be as easy as I need. I need an hour away. Uh, I need I need quiet. I I gotta be with people. I’m too. I feel like I’m twice later, I got to get outdoors. I mean, those are all us, uh, responding to what we’re feeling in the moment and trying to take care of ourselves. Exactly. You’re right. Of course. 100. You’re right. Not that I thought you would be wrong, but yeah, you give voice to it. 100% of us have mental health needs. Absolutely. All right. Um right. So can we Can we flush these two things out? You know, assuming that people need help or that is assuming that the answers are simple. Is there Is there more like is there. Are there more ways we can help people avoid saying the wrong

[00:41:26.41] spk_0:
thing? Yeah, So what I usually do and what I taught in the workshop at the conference is, um, I try to focus on people remembering that when we’re in the workplace, we have to know what our role is. So are are you this person’s, um, you know, support system. Are you this person mental health treatment professional? Or are you there co worker or boss? If your co worker or boss you should start thinking what’s appropriate for me as a vantage point to engage in the topic of mental health and what what really is appropriate is talking about the behaviors in the workplace and how they affect the workplace. So you may see somebody who let’s say their absence a lot, and that’s not like them. And it’s not really appropriate work, even if it were like them. And so you’re thinking, Gee, from the way they look, they remind me of my friend from college who suffered from depression, and I might go over to them. And I might say, You know, Dan, uh, you’re absent a lot. I’d like to refer you to the employee Assistance Plan, which offers free counseling benefits. Or I’d like to suggest a way to help you with your mental health. I’m concerned that might be an issue that is wrong, because done now is you’ve added the backstory of your idea of what their mental health might be from your personal experiences instead of just focusing on what you’ve seen in the workplace, which is the absence is. So the better conversation is to sit down and say, Um, you know, Dan, I’ve noticed that you’ve been absent and I’d like to talk to you about how that affects the workplace and what we can do to manage that going forward and follow that conversation forward about the behavior. And then there’s ways that you can integrate mental health, you know into that conversation. And the typical way is to say, you know, whenever anybody is absent three times or whenever anybody misses this many deadlines or whenever anybody turns in lower quality work, we always let them know that there’s resources here to help them. And here’s a handout that includes all the resources we have that includes the employee assistance plan, etcetera. But what we’ve done here is we’ve taken the behavior indicator and we said, Okay, my role is really about the behavior I’d like to offer mental health support. You don’t have to. I’d like to offer mental health support. So what I do is I find a way to do it without singling anybody out. And I regularly promote these resources, um, and link it to clear behavior based criteria when I do it, as opposed to my hunch that I’ve seen something and I’m guessing, if you may are made out of a mental hunch about you, right, So that’s 11 way to look at it and that covers most situations. The the other thing that happens, Um, so that covers if you if you if you see you know performance problems at work or if you see inappropriate conduct, you can do the approach, I just said, But the other thing that can happen is someone can come and disclose to you, and they can disclose to you either just in passing like I did on this program and say, I have bipolar disorder and that’s it. Or they can disclose to you by saying, you know, I have bipolar disorder, I have depression and I’d like to change something here in the workplace. And at that point, most workplaces of a certain size have a responsibility legally to consider what’s called a reasonable accommodation for disability. And so there is a process for talking about that, and the American

[00:41:29.53] spk_1:
is that’s under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

[00:42:56.00] spk_0:
Yes, this is under the Americans with Disabilities Act, reasonable accommodation. Most Most organizations do not talk about this very well in the sense that they have a policy. If somebody asked for a reasonable accommodation, but they don’t educate the managers and the staff of when someone says something that could be a request for an accommodation. Um and so the example that I give is You know, a lot of people hear me say, I have bipolar disorder and they go, Whoa, that’s serious. Do you need help, Dan, Um, you know, But if I said, Oh, I’m feeling depressed right now and I need some time off I might not realize that that person is suffering from major depression and they’re actually asking for a disability accommodation. So it’s very dangerous to use your own judgment of whether or not a situation is serious enough to refer to H R or to refer to the disability accommodation on policy. And so what you really need to do is, um, when someone shares anything that includes two elements, which is possible health condition and that requests for a change in the workplace you should have, you should offer to process it like a disability accommodation. Um, and you should not, as a manager, informally offer the health, because even though you think you’re doing that person a favor, you’re making that person feel insecure that there’s not a real system to take care of them and instead that they’re relying on the goodwill of their manager. And that’s not a comfortable thing. In addition to the fact that if you’re letting the manager do these ad hoc favors, um, you’re opening up the possibility that there might be discrimination where whoever the manager notices, some people get, some people don’t etcetera, and and that becomes a problem. So that’s basically the whole gamut of interactions. You can have that work related mental health.

[00:43:21.80] spk_1:
So what is so what is the best way? By the way, I don’t know if you can hear There’s vacuuming because I have a contractor preparing my stairs, and

[00:43:22.84] spk_0:
I can’t hear the vacuuming, but I I feel for you.

[00:43:44.10] spk_1:
Okay. Thank you. I was feeling for you because I thought it might be distracting. Uh, well, if you hear vacuuming or pounding, it’s on my end. Okay? There’s no one trying to break into your home. What? So what is the appropriate thing to say? Then tell us, You know, like, if you can script it, what should What should the supervisors say when the person presents with these two? You know, these

[00:46:51.98] spk_0:
two criteria? I think they should just ask, you know. Oh, I I hear you’re saying that, um I hear you saying this and that. Would you? You know, would you like us to, um, Steve, there’s a way to adjust the workplace as part of an accommodation. This is what we say to anybody who presents with a possible health issue and, um, request for help. And most people will say No, I don’t I don’t want to do it as an accommodation. Um, and I’m saying this also with the caveat that you should go to your own HR department and find out how they want you to do this, but because they have their own practices and they have their own attorneys that have decided how to do it at your organization. But the key thing is, a lot of people at the organization don’t understand that regularly. People are saying things that could be a request for accommodation. And the fact that you would take it more seriously if I say I have bipolar disorder than depression is on its face. Discriminatory because you know you don’t realize it because you’re just thinking you’re being nice. You’re being supportive. Um, you know, But, um, but it’s just it’s just it’s better to have a uniform approach where anytime anybody shares any kind of health need while asking for for some kind of change at work, you refer someone, and if somebody just shares it like I said, I have bipolar disorder. Um, don’t assume they need help. So that’s the other piece. You need both elements before you offer the accommodation for all. Otherwise, there’s some lessons about generally how to talk about mental health. Um, and people can get resources that I promoted on the conference. I guess we could add a link to go with this podcast. But I could say that you are l, um, Dispute resolution and Mental Health Initiative is where you can get the free resources. So it’s D r M h initiative dot org. There’s a lot of resources there to help you figure out ways to talk about mental health and empowering ways. Um, one example is person first language. So you wouldn’t say Dan is bipolar because that’s defining me by my condition. You would say Dan has bipolar disorder, or Dan, um, you know, has a diagnosis of bipolar, you know, or whatever it may be, Um, the other thing is, you should really never make any assumptions. So when someone says something to you, the easiest thing to say is, Oh, what What do you want me to know from that? What do you want me to know from that? Instead of jumping in and saying, Oh, I have a friend who also has, um, you know, depression, right? Or I’m depression myself. I’m anxiety. You know, someone says to you, Hey, I’m mentioning, um that I have, uh, I’ll use me again as an example. Bipolar disorder, you can say. Oh, Dan, I hear you. You know what? What do you want me to know from that? And I said, Oh, you know what? I’m fine. I don’t need anything. I’m just open with everyone so that, you know, I just was saying it because it’s just what I do to feel more comfortable or it’s just part of what I do for my work. Um, but but But most people, when they hear something like that, they go into their hole on their whole inner wheel in their head. Um oh, what do I do to help this person?

[00:46:53.73] spk_1:
What I read about that. Yeah, I

[00:47:03.18] spk_0:
read about that. And it’s the actual advice to take care of. This is it’s actually quite simple. Don’t listen to yourself. Listen to the person who’s talking and make sure you hear what their ideas are and what their desires are. Um, to guide the conversations and there’s a lot more to it than that. You can get those resources again at D. R. M. H initiative dot org.

[00:47:19.48] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, since we’re talking so much about bipolar, why don’t you acquaint folks with what it means to have a diagnosis of bipolar.

[00:49:52.37] spk_0:
Sure, well, but well, every mental health diagnosis because of the nature of what a mental health problem is, where it affects your thoughts and feelings and behaviors is unique to each individual. So I don’t want anyone to generalize from my story to other people. But I have bipolar disorder. It’s a mood disorder, which means I have trouble regulating my moods to some degree. And because it’s bipolar, there’s two different types of ends of the spectrum. On the one hand, there’s the low mood, which is depression. Um, what differentiates me from someone who has a diagnosis of depression is there’s also periods of high moods, which can be mania or hypomania. Traditionally, people think of that as you get very euphoric. Um, but you can also, which means very happy. But you can also have a very upsetting or dysphoric mania. And there’s a lot. There’s a lot of complexity, so I don’t want people to walk away thinking they know what it means that someone has bipolar for me. I was 19, um, in college, and I didn’t sleep for four straight days until I was then hospitalized and they checked my brain and, um, saw that I didn’t have drugs in my system. I didn’t have a brain abnormality physically on the scan and diagnosed me with bipolar disorder. Because if you have one of these big up episodes where you don’t sleep and you talk faster than I’m talking right now and you engage in erratic behaviors, um, that is definitive for a diagnosis of bipolar. Basically. So, um, if you just have depression, you don’t know if someone’s going to have depression or not, because you need to see that up episode to know that somebody has bipolar disorder. So for me, I was 19. I had that episode in college. I missed a semester of school, you know, got hospitalized and I’ll stop the story there. But it’s obviously a long story of life with a mental illness. Um, and it’s complicated, and it’s just one of many people’s different stories. Some people go to the hospital. Some people don’t. Some people take medications some people don’t, and that’s why what’s important is to let people tell their story and tell you what they want you to know. Instead of asking your own questions and pro and probing. Um, what? Your question was totally appropriate, Um, for this podcast. But in general, if you’re at work, you know, you keep your head down, and when someone brings it up to you, you listen to them and you ask them what they want to talk about. And you follow some of the other skills that you can learn to be empowering and talking about mental health.

[00:49:54.57] spk_1:
So a better way to ask. What would you like me to know

[00:49:57.77] spk_0:
about? What Would you like me to know and or just Yeah, or just I mean, you can say diagnosed. You can say anything, but yeah. I mean,

[00:50:05.84] spk_1:
what would you like me to know

[00:51:19.56] spk_0:
about what you’re saying, what you know or what are you? What are you trying to convey to me? You know, the idea is less about specifically what you say and more about showing the person a few things. So number one is I’m listening to you. I want to hear your ideas and your story. You’re you’re empowered in this conversation. So that’s one thing you’re trying to do. The other thing that I mentioned earlier, it’s really important is I’m not judging you and singling you out to treat you differently than other people. So those are the themes that you want to show with. Everything you’re trying to do is to say we we we check in on everybody who is absent, we check in and everybody who misses deadlines, you know, we have the same conversation. It’s better to give a written handout because with the written handout, um, people can see Oh, yeah, You didn’t just make this up just because you’re freaked out by me. You you give this out to everybody. So those are the key principles that are the most important. And if you say the wrong thing along the way, um, you know that’s not always pleasant for someone. But if they can see that you’re really trying to be fair and treat them like somebody else and if they can see that you’re really trying to listen to them, then you’re going to have a good outcome. And and that’s not just when there’s a mental health problem involved, that’s actually all communication. Um, you know, in all interactions, it’s good to do those

[00:51:22.44] spk_1:
things listening,

[00:51:23.50] spk_0:
listening, listening

[00:51:24.73] spk_1:
just as I just cut you off as you’re talking. But I’m saying, but I’m emphasizing, Yeah, listening appropriately. Careful

[00:52:24.25] spk_0:
listening. Um, and what happens with mental health is a lot of times people see mental health niche and they start panicking about what do I do? What do I do? And it’s like, actually, you should really just focus on treating everyone great all the time, and then you won’t have any problems. And and And that’s where I come in as a trainer or, um, you know, to help different organizations is, you know, basically what happens is they have They have some missteps and how they’re dealing with mental health. And so we address those. But it’s actually addressing the culture for everyone because as we started, um, this podcast 100% of people are having mental health needs 100% people, um, you know, might need to communicate about feeling sad or worried or overwhelmed or having a rough day and and and these skills will benefit in all those situations. Um, you know, as long as you get to that mindset of the empowerment and treating everybody the same, all

[00:52:50.55] spk_1:
right, that’s excellent. And I’d like to leave it there if you make you make your points very, very clear. Very succinct. I do want to leave folks with DRM H initiative dot org for Dispute resolution and Mental Health Initiative. DRM h initiative dot org For all the valuable resources you were talking about, Dan Dan Burstein, founder M. H. Mediate Dan, Thank you very much.

[00:52:51.89] spk_0:
Thank you for having me.

[00:53:56.85] spk_1:
Awesome. Valuable Thank you and thank you for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC were sponsored at the conference by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o Next week. More 21 NTC panels If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, be with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for February 1, 2019: Successful Run/Walks & #19NTC

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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week, Molly Sullivan at Fordham University here in New York. She was sharing the show with her colleagues and accidentally sent it to me. We love listener sharing. So thank you very much, Molly, for doing that, even if you have to share with the host. I love sharing. So share with me all the time, but thank you for trying to get it out to your colleagues. Hope you hope you got that Taken care of. Thanks for sharing Molly. And congratulations on being our Listener of the week. I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with forma cation if you made my skin crawl with the idea that you missed today’s show. Successful Run Walks Emily Parks, Melcher Productivity Consulting with run walks to give you her best tips that will make your sporting events winners. She’s founder of Organized for Success and nineteen NTC twenty nineteen Non-profit Technology conference is March thirteen to fifteen in Portland, Oregon. I’ll be there. Amy Sample Ward are social, media and technology contributor, CEO of N ten and a Portland ER, shares. Why you need to be there. Here’s a hint. You can hear this right now, so you’re use technology durney steak, too insider responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuing, but Wagner CPS guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye. Tell us Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine. Pleased to welcome Emily Parks to Non-profit radio, she’s an award winning productivity consultant who founded Organized for Success in two thousand seven, using tips using tips garnered from her years as a small business owner and productivity consultant. Emily has more than doubled income generated by the lunge Forward, five k run, walk and rally that she directs for the Lung Cancer Initiative of North Carolina. She’s at or GE the number four success, and her company is organized. The word for success dot biz. We’ll have to show Emily Parks thank you so much for having me today. It’s a pleasure to be joining you. Thanks. You calling in from Raleigh, North Carolina, Are you? Yes, I am. Okay. You know, my heart is in North Carolina often. Yeah, cause I own my own two homes there once. Ones like, only an hour away from you in Pinehurst. Yes. And as a beautiful town. Yeah, it is. It’s nice. There. Rallies. Lovely. I love Raleigh. Absolutely. A little bit of everything in rally. A lot of college students Do I like that? Yeah. So let’s talk about our successful run walks to get started. You like to see a comprehensive checklist? Well, my experience working with entrepreneur small business owners, non-profit managers, frontline employees, every human being has reinforced the research that our brains are meant for thinking whether that strategic or creative. But they’re not meant for remembering things. And so when we’re putting together any sort of an event, but particularly a charity, run or walk, there are so many things to be remembered, and I find that capturing those is a great way to make sure number one, nothing falls through the cracks, but also, we can actually a sign a deadline for each of the items in the checklist. We can make sure that it it flows more seamlessly from conception that to the event day, and that we’re able to actually check them off the list. But there’s definitely a sense of accomplishment and empowerment where you’re checking things off the list. Yeah, I was like that when I can scratch something off a list. But so So if I forget, uh, my wife’s birthday, I could just say My brain is not made for remembering. So layoff, Is that true? Well, there is this little thing called technology that can help you with reminders and things like that so we can use the tools around us. But yes, actually, when so numbers were first created, they were given four digits. Because all the psychological research shows that we’re not able within our brains to capture more than four things at a time. And you’ll notice when when children or adults go through I Q testing and they give you the items that you need to remember and then they do something else and they come back and they ask you for those items. They only ask you for three or four different things in that list. And that’s because our brains are just not meant for remembering those things. Okay, now, when I was in when I was in college, I took some psychology courses, and it was cognitive psychology. One of the things we learned. Maybe this is Maybe this is outdated now, because this was nineteen eighty, Something, um was that the brain could remember. It was it was seven plus or minus two chunks. Does this sound familiar to you, or it does So bizarre is that learning so on a chunk is not necessarily a digit. I mean, you could put if you were, If you trained yourself, you could put six or seven or eight digits in a chunk. And then you can remember seven plus or minus two chunks of somewhere between five and nine chunks, you know, but you have to train yourself. You can’t do that right out of the gate. That is that. Is that antiquated research that I just wasted people’s times listening to? No. But there is a caveat to that. There’s the emphasis on number one training yourself, but number two, using tools to connect those items together. So a lot of times you’ll hear people talking about a list of items or shopping list or something, and they create a story that ties the different items together. So you’re more inclined to remember closer to that seven to nine range, then the four to six range. If you’re doing something with your brain to make those words matter, or there’s numbers matter or they’re more meaningful. Yeah, okay. You got do some exercises with them or something. Yeah, part of the part of the final exam in that course, the Professor Red things off. And I think you know how to have pens down or something. Your hands up in the air or something. And then And then after he read off a series of whatever they were, you had to write down as many of them as you could remember. That was, uh that was interesting. Exam. All right, Durney. How’d you do on the exam? Oh, no. I’m more like seven. I’m more like one plus or minus two chunks. My, my So so I grasp on when you say our brains are not made for remembering, I grab onto that so that will sustain me for another ten or twelve years. Well, in another thing, not only that our brains are not meant for remembering, but they’re meant for thinking is also that our our brains don’t grass someday. So one of the other reasons that I like a checklist is because of those deadlines that I mentioned. If we have associative deadlines with our checklist items, then it’s not floating out there as a wish. It becomes a goal and something that we contain. Gia ble attain. I don’t know about you, Tony, but I have yet to dahna calendar that has some day on it. So when I say that I’ll get to that someday, it usually just keeps falling down the list further and further and never actually gets accomplished. And when you’re planning a walker run, that charity is depending on the action’s getting completed in a timely manner and deadlines pair nicely with that. I admire how, how deftly you segregate us back to the topic. We’re supposed to be talking about an off the topic that I digressed, too, which was a seven plus or minus two chunks in the psychology class and everything else. So that was very well done. We’ve got to take our first break pursuant their newest free E book, The Art of First Impressions. Do you need more donors? This resource is all about donor-centric guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy. Plus how to identify your unique value and use it to advantage, plus creative tips. It’s all about making an excellent first impression for Donorsearch acquisition. You’ll find this at Tony dahna slash pursuant Capital P for, please. Always for that listener landing page. Now, let’s go back to successful run walks. All right, Emily. Eso brava. Well done, Segway ing us back to the topic that you got tired of talking about That I made you digress to That was never tired of talking about psychology. But I do know that I want to be able to give your listeners as much value as we possibly can. Yes. And if you, uh, worthless host digressions as possible, that’s that’s the natural conclusion From what you just said. I understand their kayman value is always Well, it better be. I just got some value to this. Okay, so what’s our next step? You You tell me what you want to talk about after after having that critical checklist, How about teamwork? No, I don’t want that. I don’t like that one. Now go ahead. Of course, Steven, do it. Well, I the quotes that come to mind when I’m thinking of planning charity walks and runs are in love as faras. You know, if you want to go quickly, go by yourself. If you want to go for go with a group or together everyone achieves Mawr. I mean, there’s there’s countless Mantra tze with which a lead our organizational group. But having a committee might be the most important element for the success of both the event, the growth of the fund-raising and the overall mission driven element of any charity organization committee’s Okay, we don’t want a committee too big. I mean, of course, right? I mean, this is a run walk, so of course it can’t be handled by one person, so absolutely I’m not not debating that. But you get too much committee. Andi, you get more, get more committee. I don’t know stagnation. Then you do productivity out of a committee. Absolutely. You want to make sure that you have enough people in the room said that each of the necessary rolls is fulfilled. But you want to make sure that you don’t have so many that it slows down the decision making process or that anyone on the committee doesn’t feel like they’re truly contributing. People want to make an impact. People want to help your non-profits vision and mission come to fulfillment, but if they’re just filling up space and coming for a free meal, they’re going to feel less fulfilled in the process. So I find making sure that the committee includes a volunteer coordinator, a team captain, coordinator, an exhibitor coordinator or host for those vendors that will be at the event a media contacts and then particularly someone to oversee the food and beverage element of your event. Those air really integral roles that helped the committee divide and conquer on the necessary functionality but also empower all those team members. Because if you’ve got a planning team that has the the right people in the right roles, then everybody excels because they’re all ableto bring ideas and energy and their network for bigger and better results. I’m in Italian, so I gravitated to the food and beverage section. What if we’re thinking about doing a run walk you know, we don’t do these annually with planning one first. One. What kinds of what kinds of foods and beverages should you provide to your your runners and walkers? The answer to that, Tony actually depends on what type of event you’re trying to have. I find it. The charity event that I oversee for our Greensboro Lunge forward here in North Carolina is part of a run, Siri. So there are running events all throughout the year, and participants that do at least five of those in the Siri’s get X surprising. So been to many throughout the series, and there’s different feelings at different events throughout the year. Some of them really focus on making sure there’s enough doughnuts and bagels and sausage biscuits or bananas or oranges for free race snacking and then refueling as soon as you’re done with the rich. There are others like ours, where we do have those items beforehand, particularly the bagels, the doughnuts, the bananas, oranges. You know, those high energy fuelling foods. But we also partner with a local restaurant in brewery in the area to be ableto have brought and beer now talking. Now, now breathe here for everyone that participates in the five K is always an exciting draw for any runner. And I’ve decided that if you run a five K, you’ve earned your free beer afterward. Can I just show up in shorts and a T shirt and just crash and forget the five k part? And just just I’ll do the walk from my car to the beer stand. Well, how about you registers a participant to the five K, but she just sort of hide in the background during the running part, and then you get your beard the alright? Exactly. Yeah, right. Right. I mean, you still get the teacher about trying to skirt the system, but I don’t want to cheat the charity, so I mean, I’ll donate, you know, I’ll donate to the charity too, but you’re in Brant’s. That xero okay. So a little some comfort food for afterwards, if But you know. But I hear you too. And you know, it depends on what part of the country you’re in. It depends on what your mission is. Beer and brats may not work for the American Heart Association. Well, the beer could mean that that alcohol is hard healthy too, in moderation I don’t know about. Maybe they read washing. Yeah, Yeah or yeah. That’s a myth, though. You know what? That’s the red wine producers all, however all alcohol? Yes. All alcohol again in moderation. The two ounces to three ounces or two to four ounces a day or something. Has the has the heart healthy benefits. But the red wine industry jumped on that when it first came out and said, You know, red wine is the is the source. You get the same heart healthy benefits from white wine or other other alcohol spirits. Trust me. Just you have to just trust me on that. That’s great. That marked the price of admission. Jellicle, my limoncello Limoncello, not lemon Jell O, please, Limoncello. What else do I like? Bailey’s? Yes. You get the get the advantage from all those different alcohol types. Not on ly red wine. OK, another worthless host aggression. I’m sorry. I don’t know why you come on the show. I would if I were you. I’d hang up because the hostess who keeps dragging you into places there only I think the lesson about alcohol. That’s a pretty good lesson learned All right. It’s true. Um, especially skillsets wear Red day today. Always today. Where? A day for what? Yeah, for the American heart is American heart miss that one. All right. Okay. Uh, while I’m in New York somewhere and gray and black, that’s that’s That’s the de rigueur colors here. All right, So what’s next? We gotta have some captains coordinators on the committee, right? Absolutely. So, talking about this, members of the committee that touched on the volunteer coordinator was the team captain coordinator. And I find that that team captain coordinator is an integral part for the growth of any run wall. Because if you’re using your committee and your media contacts and your email messages that go out your social media marketing to touch on each individual directly from the organization, you’re not gonna have the breadth and depth of reach that if you have a team captain coordinator who is the point person for energizing all of your team captains, then it gives the team captains the fuel to go out and work with their network and make those personal place to grow their network. And thereby you have this whole army of individuals that are out getting people excited and energized and signed up and making donations and asking their friends and family and neighbors and colleagues to come and join them. Research shows that we need to hear about something at least five to seven times before we want to learn about it. So if you’ve got your marketing messages going out, but then you also have Team Captain’s asking for help e-giving personal invites to their contacts. Then you reach that five to seven threshold faster, and you get more people to go to the website, learn more about the event and sign up, make known ations and truly take action. Okay. And then, of course, there’s technology that can help us to. It’s enlarge our network as well. Absolutely. I’m a firm believer that a combination of message sitting so email, marketing, multiple platforms of social media if you if you were non-profit, is the size of a mid having a text messaging element, that’s a huge way to get people while they’re on the go. You can also make sure that you’ve got calls going out. Our team captain coordinator does a great job to make calls to the team captains and then the team captains. Often Tom’s will call people on there on their teens, so it’s sort of that domino effect and also another coordinators that we touched on earlier. The volunteer coordinator and Exhibitor Coordinator. Um, you could also have a sponsorship coordinator, but those air all people to get other organisations involved. So your sponsor coordinator is getting people to donate money as sponsors. Your exhibitor Coordinator is getting organizations, businesses, community partners, tohave table tops at the event. And your volunteer coordinator is working with Universities High School’s key club, all different types of volunteer outlet to get more people there on the premises. Most events I’ve seen need anywhere from one hundred two hundred volunteers for a walker run. And you want to make sure that you have those bodies so that things run seamlessly throughout? Okay, wait. If you’re talking a minimum of one hundred volunteers, that’s a that’s a huge event. Yes. You know, you’re talking about So what size hominy, run runners. Walkers? Do you have just wait? We average between five hundred eight hundred participants, but we have a cz many as twelve hundred event. Okay. Okay. One factor we want to make sure we consider again. I imagine this is most valuable for people who haven’t done this much or at all. We need to make provisions for the folks who aren’t able to run or walk, but they’re going. They’re going to participate in a wheelchair or, ah, bike. So it’s one of the I don’t know what those bikes are called, but they’re they’re not your average bike, but you know, people who want to participate or need to participate, other than running and walking two, two elements to that number one, every walk run is responsible for partnering with the city in which they host their event to make sure that there’s adequate police coverage. One of the main functionalities of those police officers is to make sure that whenever that walk run participant goes through an intersection there protected from oncoming traffic. And so part of that is, Is your course flat? Or are you educating potential participants about where the hills are so that they can plan accordingly? Part of it is making sure that the police are aware when there are participants that needs special consideration, like those in a wheelchair or those that may be walking with a walker or things like that. We have also partnered with local organizations that they have runners that put some of our lung cancer survivors into these. They’re there kind of like they’re like, adult stroller type things. But they have three wheels and then the two handles on the back so that the runners can push the survivors that are unable to make it through the five k or the one k distance so that they’re able to participate in the festivities, right? Sure. Okay. Okay. Very good. And but making sure also, one of the most important things to add to your checklist as you are somebody doing a walker run is to make sure that you have first aid coverage. And for us, that has been a an organization with city where they have first aid medical medic who are on the bicycle. But it depends on where you are located and what resources are available in your city or town. But make sure that you’ve got first aid covers. Okay? Excellent admonition. Thank you. And then. So if we have this overall logistical checklist, there’s got to be sub checklists for probably each of these committees, or write each of these discreet activities were talking about. They need their own checklist with timeline and deadline absolutely going back to that part about needing to hear about something thought to seven times before acting on it. A checklist for marketing messaging that incorporates multiple different emails, multiple different social media campaigns, multiple different mentions that other events that people might be coming tio or calendar listings and things like that is huge. So a checklist for your marketing efforts is important that could in-kind clued media coverage and a timeline for how to reach out to media people. But then also a separate checklist for volunteer recruitment is huge. That volunteer coordinator needs to know where they should be sharing information and with whom. At what day. There’s not a someday on the calendar, so making sure that their specific deadlines for each step in it is huge. The exhibitor coordinator needs to know at what intervals to reach out to sponsors to see if they’re going to exhibit two. Solicit details about who needs electricity or who’s going to be bringing a ten by ten ten things like that. So the overall checklist being broken down into subjects list makes it great to delegate and have teamwork and everybody carrying a part of the load. But Mohr ever make sure that everybody is working and tamed them together so that your checklist makes sense working? Congrats, Emily. What’s your plan for crummy weather? Oh, I wish I could just stick a biodome up over the area where we’d have our event because, unfortunately, whether it’s the number one thing you cannot control and our events do happen, rain or shine. We have had some really chilly mornings because the greens for lunch forward happens in November because that’s Lung Cancer Awareness Month. But also because Veterans Day falls in November and military veterans are impacted by lung cancer a significantly higher rate. So our weather plan is threefold. Number one. We do an amazing goodie bag for each participant that has things like an extra pair of socks. Gloves that have, like the TEC tips on, Um, um, we give out to bargains are Beanies, I guess, is the new name for them. That people can wear to cover their ears in their heads. So number one is the Good East to acquit people for the weather. Number two is we do have the contingency plan that if there is a tornado coming through or lightning strikes or things like that, would you cancel the event in that place? But the third is to just educate people from the get go that our event happens. Rain or shine. OK, thank you very much. Very welcome. That was a wonderful question. I appreciate you touched tonight. Only took me twenty five minutes to achieve one. Thank you. Now all of the questions are great, that one, especially because people don’t necessarily think about the weather being something they can’t control. Your looking on your checklist, that all these great things that you can control and unfortunately, we don’t have a magic wand away just and say, Oh, we need a bright, sunny day with seventy some degree temperatures outside. Well, you’re in North Carolina, so you have a better shot at that. And lots of other parts of the country That is very well, remember, it’s a wonderful weather and November you have a better shot of that, then Lots of other places. Okay, way. Got a few minutes left, like, three minutes or so. Left. Um, well, how how early do you like to start the planning for this? We often times start as a committee with a debrief of the prior year’s event the week or so after that prior year’s event. And because our event is in November, we will do the debriefing in December in January. And then we actually start hitting the ground hard and February with making sure location is secured that our race route is is confirmed and certified that we coordinate with the city we coordinate with the police. So we started that the past couple of weeks. In January. We will hit the ground running through February, and then our committee will start having regular meetings in Mark and we start meeting every other month with people doing functionality in between those meetings on their own. And then starting in the summer, we’ll meet every month. But our with the event being in November, we make sure that the website launch is no less than six months before the event. Okay, the registration went okay. Excellent. All right. So really, you’re ITT’s a year round deal, all right? Absolutely. Family. We just have a minute left, which I need to hold you too. So what do you want to wrap up with in a minute? Make sure that you, as a leader for your event as well as everybody on your committee, understands that everybody is human and we can do the best we can. But schedules are going to change. Problems are going to arrive. There’s going to be fires to put out. So cut yourself some slack, incorporate self care and asked for help because teamwork will make everybody so much more successful. All right, That’s excellent rap, Emily. Thank you very much. Thank you. Toni. This fabulous. My pleasure. You’re right. You are fabulous. Emily Parks. She’s at Organ. The number four success and her company is organized for success. That’s the word for dot biz. Thank you again, Emily. Thank you, Tennessee. This was a pleasure. Let’s take a break. Well, your C P s. Here’s a block post for you. The differences between your nine ninety and your financial statements. Have you ever looked at these two things and seen the same word description, but there’s two different numbers, and it seems like they ought to match, especially if the same person, same companies doing the two things. But there are reasons why they don’t that and other things. Simple explanations there covered in this In this post, you goto wagner cps dot com Click Resource is then blogged. Now, Tony steak, too. Have you become a non-profit radio insider? Yes, he’s talking about it again. Oh, my God. Because that’s where you’re going to get the special access now special access to the private videos that I’m doing with guests Thiss Week with Emily. Since she’s a productivity consultant, we’re goingto do something, as as these videos always are that we did not talk about on the show. It’s not just we got a short regurgitation of what you just listen to on the show. What’s the point of that? So we’re going to talk about a productivity tip using the Eisenhower matrix, Emily and I. So that’s one example. But there’s there’s Ah, probably got six of these or so in the can that haven’t been released yet, but it’s going to be all part of part of a they will all be part of a private playlist and you get access to the playlist. But being a non-profit radio insider, how do you do that? You go to tony martignetti dot com and you click the insider alerts button. It’s so damn simple. It’s just name and email, some other podcast. It would probably charge you, but I don’t and I’m not going to. It’s not like I’m putting you on a list that you believe you’re going to get. You’re gonna get charged. I just wanted to be an insider. That’s how you get it. Okay, So you started twenty martignetti dot com. What a surprise. Let’s bring in AA step award. She’s been listening in, and, uh, she’s our social media and technology contributor. What do you know about that? She’s also the CEO. Event ten. How about that? NON-PROFIT technology? I’m sorry. Uh, well, the Non-profit technology network she’ll admonish me. Her most recent co authored book is Social Change. Anytime, everywhere about online multi-channel engagement. She’s that Amy Sample, ward dot or GE. And at Amy R. S. Ward. Welcome back, Amy. Simple word. Hi. Thank you for having me back. Actually, just as I was waiting my turn in the digital Q. Here I was looking twenty nineteen, a brand new year calling in non-profit radio. And then I was like, Wait a second. How long have I been doing this? And I just checked my email and it six and a half years. Is that, like a real thing? Absolutely. Just gave me a chill. Literally. I have a physical chill. Give me goose bumps. Yeah, because the first show you were on, we used to talk about this on the anniversary shows, but happy Toa. You know, not that that’s the only time. But so this is how I know the first show you were on was the one hundredth show. And yes, that’s what I remember that, you know, there’s searching through your Gmail can be a little difficult. So I just Tony hundreds show because I knew that the first one and yeah, that was in July of twenty twelve. That’s right. July is every every July is a new fifty new fifty more shows. Fifty show milestone and live twenty twelve. Yeah, and we’re at show four hundred. This is four hundred twenty seven or six or eight or somewhere around there. So that’s three hundred and twenty some shows and fifty shows a year would be six, seven, six years and a little less than half. You’re absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. How do we possibly have things? They still talk about you. Uh, well, you make that you make that you make that determination on, then I routinely veto them, and then you make another determined. You probably have. Come on. So true. Yeah. You probably have come up with more. Like probably like seven hundred topics. Three hundred fifty. Some shows you’ve been on. Well, of course, you have been on every week either, but But But it has been that long. It has been that many years, you know, because you know, we get along great eye. I think you don’t have to say anything if you don’t want to. Wei have a strong enough relationship that I could say you can remain silent you on the show and it’s fine. You can remain silent when I say we have a good relationship. E-giving all right. So are you calling in from the End ten office? Yes, I’m calling in from antenna H Q, where we are quite literally surrounded by boxes as we have one last week where you know different different swag, different supplies, all the you know, physical things that make the conference happen are being sent to the office and then they get all rounded up and take take to the convention center in, like, one giant truck. So right now it’s the final week of the boxes like Back-up around us. I see Right? And, of course, we’re going to talk about nineteen ntcdinosaur twenty nineteen non-profit technology conference now. In years past, when this has not been in Portland, where your physical headquarters is, would those things just have been shipped to the hotel. And so that would should save staff a lot of a lot of labor fame. It’s here in pieces because a lot of it, you know, I mean, we are somewhat conscious of the carbon footprint we’re creating by putting on a conference. So as much as we can, we use your two year so a lot of it here in our building storage and then, you know, we bring it out in package. What we need to take for that year by the stuff that we need to buy, and then it normally gets put on him one or two palace and shipped to conventions come. But since we’re in the same town, that’s not like a thing we can’t have should become falik ties the boxes and literally just drive them across the river, you know, five minutes away. But we also can’t just take it. And, you know, like behind the scenes reality of big conference planning is that convention centers and decorators have all these rules about when you can access the pre event storage when you can access, loading, dock all of that stuff and that you’re charged every time it does get access. So instead of Ah, shipper, that’s going to put it on a pallet, you know, on some big truck and go across the country and said, We have a moving company coming to move these things. And that was quite an interesting process of trying to talk to movers. And we’re like, Well, no, we’re not moving offices, but you do need to pick it up from an office. We’re still going to work here. It’s just other stuff you’re picking up, so Yeah. Okay. That’s s o. I liked the behind the scenes stuff. Um, yeah. So you said Big conference. It’s always over two thousand. You have. Ah, you have a goal for the number of its India. We have a map Wey have, like, the amount of people that can sit in chairs. So we’re currently on track to sell out at our cap of twenty. Three hundred twenty hundred. You thinkyou? Yes. You think you’ll sell out twenty three hundred? Okay. Yeah. I mean, we have we call it a calculator, but essentially, it’s all of the week by week registration data from the last, like, ten years, and it just charts it in. So every week we put in how many registrations we do have. And it calculates out what we’re on track. Tio hit. If we continue the pattern of the previous data at Tio hit our cap of twenty three hundred a head of the conference, which means we’ll have tto, you know, hang up the closed sign on registration at some point. Yeah. Turn people away. All right. So get in. So then now place to go. Of course. Is in ten dot or GE. It’s right on the right On the home page. Big band. Is there a banner across the top? Yes. Big dahna krauz stop you. And ten dot or ge. Um Okay, So what? What are what are we signing up for? What we’re getting into if we when we sign up. I’m glad you asked. You’re getting you’re signing up for all kinds of things. There is. This is my very weak attempt creating a bridge to Emily Segment. There are some community members who already organized some morning runs, and one of the lunches has a guided walk by Beth Kantor. So the NTC, then I’ll have a technology conference ISS filled with all kinds of things that I think folks expect at any conference. They’re going to tow learn, but it’s also filled with things that I think community members often don’t expect to be in a conference. So on the first hand, there’s over one hundred eighty sessions this year so that, you know, three hundred some speakers and just lots and lots of opportunities to go learn from other practitioners what they want to dio on our conference has we label sessions are in our kind of way of thinking. We’re more like categorizing them or tagging them into the five kind of categories of an organization. So program fund-raising marketing, communications it and leadership. But they don’t act as like tracks or, you know, some conferences. You sign up and you’re you have a certain job title and those of the sessions you have to go to. That’s not how it is. I can’t see anybody can go to any session, but we use those labels because since then, DCS all about technology, there could be two sessions happening at the same time, about data or about maps or whatever. But if you see that one of them is tagged as a communication session and one is tagged as a night session, it’s easier to say, Oh, well, I couldn’t see the difference between these one of these is maybe going to be more technical, and one of these is going to be about, you know, external community communications. Um, and in that same way, there are people attending all those sessions, people speaking those sessions who are from every different kind of job type, every different kind of, you know, organizational mission, big, big, huge enterprise size organizations and really small one person organizations. So wherever you are at in that world, however, many staff are on your team or what mission your organization has there will likely be someone else has that matches your reality that you could find at the conference and share and learn with them. Have you ever gotten to go to many sessions, Tony? Because you’re always also creating content. I thank you, and we’re going to talk about what I’m gonna be doing there, but no, I’ve I’ve never been. I’m proud of this. It’s just the way, because I’m on the exhibit floor capturing fantastic interviews from your speakers. I have never been to an NTC session. Although I’ve been to This will be my fourth and T C. Hold that, though. We gotta We gotta take a break. Please tell us. Can you use more money? Do you need a new revenue source Get a long stream of passive revenue? When cos you refer process their credit card transactions through Tello’s, watch the video, then you send the potential companies to watch. And of course, there’s also applies for your own credit card transactions as well. And you will get fifty percent of the fee that Tello’s earns for each transaction. Not the prophet. Did I say profit? No, I did not. Fifty percent of the fee for each transaction goes to you from the referrals you make to tell us that video you will find at the landing page for listeners at tony dot m a slash Tony Tello’s All right, you gotta do the live listener love on DH. It’s going out. It’s going out. Tio, New York, New York, Brooklyn, New York. Thank you. Brooklyn and New York for Brooklyn and Manhattan being with us. Uh, let’s go. Let’s go west Phoenix, Arizona and Tampa, Florida. Well, that’s coming back east, of course. Um, and then let’s go abroad. We got We got two nations where we cannot tell the city and they’re very disparate. One is Columbia, and one is Russia. So I’m sorry I cannot dahna shout you out by city, but the live love goes naturally. It just goes, it goes to the whole country generally. And then you got the targeted and the specific and the attribution yl love directly to those listeners. And then we also got sent to Domingo in the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic. We don’t see you too often, so thank you. Thanks for being with us. Live Love to you as well. Yes. And the podcast pleasantries. Thank you very much. But I’m not finished quite yet because I have to send the podcast pleasantries. Amy, you know that That’s the that’s the vast majority of our audience thie over thirteen thousand people who listen, whatever device, whatever time whenever it fits into their life could be Could be the next couple days. Could be many weeks or even a couple of months sometimes based on the stats, and I see the loud the downloads continue. We easily weeks after and sometimes months after an episode, so That means podcast pleasantries. Tow our podcast listening audience. Now, Amy Sample Ward. Thank you for your indulgence there. Um, yeah. So non-profit radio is partnering with and is sponsored by You don’t mind if I do a lot nastad out on my own ship. Well, y you know what I’m doing Asking you? Yeah, Come on. Stony martignetti Non-profit. When did I get so polite? What is this transformation? Yeah, of course. I’m gonna be doing a video and saying more about this as we get closer. Teo Ntcdinosaur Tch is March thirteenth to fifteenth. Um, we’re sponsored by ActBlue at at the NTC Act Blue and Non-profit Radio. We’re gonna be sharing a booth with an oversized booth a ten by twenty. So come and see us. ActBlue will be there and they are the non-profit radio sponsors. As I’m capturing at least twenty five, hopefully as many as thirty interviews for later broadcast on the show. All speakers from Ntcdinosaur as people come off or sometimes before they do their session, they come and see us in the booth. And we recorded very cool interview all about using technology to make your work easier so that you can focus more on your mission and less on the the tribulations of technology. This is ntcdinosaur and ten and ntc. That’s anti tech tribulations. That could be our new catchphrase. Yeah, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t use that. I don’t think it’s for just that. They both start with T, but they don’t have the same sound. So it’s not an alliteration. It’s just two teams that don’t. So don’t don’t use that. In fact, let’s let’s talk about something that’s Ah, I thought you were going to admonish me for even even set it up so you could admonish me. So End ten is no longer the non-profit technology network. Right? Okay. Eso you’ve got You’re going the way of the American Automobile Association, the National Abortion Rights Action League, Thie, American Association of Retired Persons. All these organization that just want to be known by letters. What? Why do you do that? So we’ve always been known by letters. We’ve always been in your right hand, but I’ve always been allowed to say and ten we allowed Or we kept the Non-profit technology network a piece of it. Not that we use that ourselves, but that it was still there if you went to the website or, you know, use the logo or whatever, because people have this very strong expectation that they should get to know what the letters. I mean, you know that the letters have to be an acronym and that they need to know that I’m afraid I’m one of the one. Ultimately, even though we were saying the word stood for non-profit technology network, that wasn’t even what they stood for anyway, are actual legal name is Non-profit Technology Enterprise Network. What is Enterprised? Clearly has an organization. This wasn’t just me. You know, this is many years even more. I was here that e I did not mean anything. It’s not being used. So we just got to a place where we said, Why do we have to focus on Non-profit technology network? Which, if you didn’t know if you weren’t part of the community, just heard those three words. What do those three words means? They don’t really mean anything, right? Like they’re still not very descriptive. Um, so if the whole long words aren’t descriptive, let’s just stick with the name we already used. It’s maybe not descriptive, but neither is the long words. So let’s just go with an ten. Have that be our name and move on. Not have to spend all of this time. Oh, and then stand for this. No intense stand for no technology tribulations and stands for using technology strategically to meet real community need. Right? Like, get that piece out of there. Stop wasting time on that and just say, antennas this community in this work, and this is what we d’oh Okay, Okay, but, I mean, I think non-profit technology that part of it anyway, of the Non-profit technology network. I mean, yeah, I don’t agree. I mean, I think that’s descriptive. It says it says we’re about non-profits and we’re about technology, but Antenna doesn’t tell me even, Well, where do social enterprises sitting there? Where does that mean that we build technology or that we use technology or we endorse technology or were consultants I’m not offering. That is our perspective. But those are the questions we got all the time based on that name. Okay, because non-profit technology network could Alright, could mean a lot of different things. I was just focusing on the fact that it at least narrows it down from from brightstep. Ditigal would come to us say, Oh, it says that you you must build non-profit. You must build technologies for non-profits ru must, you know? So it’s still wass. Those words have meaning, but it’s a different meaning to all different people. And it is It wasn’t right. You build websites or something like that. Okay. Okay. So So then a newcomer Well, a newcomer would goto and ten dot or GE, presumably on. And then I guess they would quickly about. And then they would then read the text on the about Paige, right? I think it’s that simple, right? Okay. Okay. Look, very few people really care what didn’t What’s the name of the organization is what they’re coming to the website for is all the content that we have the conference looking for community groups, right? They’re coming for something else. And the name is just like where they got that article from right way. Didn’t we have received one email sense since dropping the Non-profit technology Network and on Lee going within ten, which is something we did back in November. But we have received one email from from someone that just said, You know, I’ve spent x amount of minutes I cannot find on your website what NTM stands for, and I need to know. I need to know. All right. Right. Well, did you talk about him or her off the ledge and word using technology strategically to meet your mission? It stands for deporting this community in this way. You know, you used to tell her you didn’t tell them they want and they wanted to know what? Those letters. So did you give it up? Eventually Did you say non-profit technology, Enterprise Network? Or did you refuse? I don’t know. I think I wasn’t me. That responded. I didn’t get the email. I think they may have said, You know, our founding legal name is this, but this is our D B. A. I’m not sure. All right. We just see this is This is why I, uh um Oh, yeah. No, we got time. Yeah, I’m thinking I just got a cue that we only have a minute left thinking Oh, my God. Can’t be over yet. But that’s just for a break, OK? Just for a break. Yes. Yes, of course. Way need Teo Metoo? Yes, but now we need to talk about ntcdinosaur. Uh ah. There’s more to say. And I’ve I’ve decided from from talking to Emily I think I’m going to coin this new thing W worthless host digressions because we’re there rife there with the show is rife with them today. And they do pop up from time to time. W hd is worthless. Host digressions. All right, let me take Let me take our last break. Please. Hoexter give. Can you use more money? Do you need a new revenue source. This is the second way you heard the first way before now is the second way right now. Amglobal e-giving learn about it with text. Gives five part email many course. Very simple. You get five emails over five days, dispelling myths, telling you how that it’s not as expensive as people think that the barriers are not high etcetera, including the tech barriers. Um, very easy start the many course to get it going. You text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Okay, and indeed, we do have several more minutes left, for example, Ward and ah, what else without? I was going to So what I was saying earlier we could rewind prior Tio tio. It’s hard to remember. Sometimes it’s hard to remember what came before there. So long. So long, their arduous. I was saying, There’s things people in debate, so duvette educational sessions. But the things that folks don’t necessarily anticipate that are part of what I think makes the NTC such a special event are more of the community pieces. So every day during lunch we have active sessions. So instead of a session where you would go sit in a room and hear somebody speak these air sessions where you can go do something. So there’s yoga. One day there’s going for a guided walk around around the river outside the convention center. You know things like that. You don’t need toe, bring other clothes, are you know Otherwise, Prepare for those things. You Khun, decided to him in the moment, but they’re just a different kind of peace. Um, all of the lunches and the breakfast on the last day have what we call birds of a feather. And those are things where people even now are submitting topics that they want and those then get set on the table. And anybody, you don’t just sign up for them. But you can go find one of those tables and meet other attendees and talk and those air anything from people saying, You know, I use WordPress for my website and I want to talk to other WordPress users to people who like Star Wars or people that mitt for people that like board games, eso it. It doesn’t have to just be technical topics, but that’s a really fun piece. And similarly, in the evenings we have dine around where people say, I want to go to dinner because we always need to eat dinner and you can just put your name onto a list. And these air reservations made for six people at all at, you know, delicious restaurants around town. And you don’t know the other five people. But you all get to go to dinner together and have a great dinner. And you are only responsible for buying your own food, of course, but you get to meet a couple other people in a setting that is, eh, Something needed to dio You need to eat, but be a small group. So you’re not trying to, you know, Here’s somebody ten seats down. I’m just a small group dinner. And, of course, Portland, Portland. Very well known for food here. I’m here. I’m season on the food again, like I did earlier. Yes, you make. No, we’re already trying to limit, you know, but challenge. We’re coming up with just again pulling back the curtain here to the behind the scenes is Portland Restaurant culture is mostly a no reservation culture. So the way the dying around usually work is that we have placed, you know, We’ve held reservations at restaurants, and then people can just add their name to the block. But many restaurants don’t allow reservations at all. So and that convict for tasty, delicious Portland restaurants. That way, we anticipate people want to go, too. So we’re trying to think of ways where it’s like you all are signing up with the group, but you’re just gonna walk over there and wait together for table. Might just have to be the reality, you know, right? But for a table of six, you know, that could be a bit of a weight too, right? That’s going to have fun around it. You know, we can have fun in the restaurant right now. Yeah, okay. But you know, you’re driving home the point that a lot of ntcdinosaur community driven. You keep it very open for people, Teo, contribute ideas and make ideas happen at NTC from the community. Very. Yeah, well, altum up. I mean, if you want to plan ahead and and do that kind of thing, you can. But we also wanted to be a place where people feel like they could meet somebody in the hall, start having a conversation, Realize they want to organize something and be able to have that happen while they’re still in person at the conference. Yes, that’s something I admire about Ntcdinosaur. So we have a couple of more minutes left. Of course, you goto in ten dot org’s you’ll it’ll be very obvious where to go to sign up. Are we still in the early bird pricing time, or has that passed? Oh, that passed in December. We got ten days until the regular registration rate runs out on DH. Pretty shortly after that is when we’ll be it the sellout No limit on the wait list to go up. So definitely go get your registration. And one thing we’re always asked is if they’re still opportunities to present. And the M ten session process is again kind of a community open process. People submit sessions in the summer than the community votes on them than US Steering Committee of experts based on topics vote on them, etcetera. And so that process has already happened, however, part of and then values and recognizing how strong and smart this community is that we don’t allow single speaker sessions. There is no topic that could be covered that truly. Only one human knows about it, so we don’t have sessions where just one opinion is getting shared. But however, that means there are some sessions where the person who you know is leading the session and was accepted. They don’t know somebody else that’s done a project like they have done, or they don’t know someone else who has an area of expertise like they have. So we have a page on the website. Anybody can see that lists any sessions where the speaker has currently told us they want help finding another speaker. So if you want to go, that page changes every day. But if folks want to go to that additional speakers page in the program section of the website and take a look. And if there’s a topic there that you know about, you can fill out the form and suggest yourself as their co presenter. Awesome, yes, So there there is still that opportunity. Wonderful. All right, so that’s Ah, twenty nineteen, the nineteen ntcdinosaur course. That’s the Hashtag ninety ninety SI Portland, Oregon at the Convention Center in Portland, March thirteenth, the fifteenth Come See me and Act Blue and non-profit radio together in a booth. Um, any sample board, of course, will be one of the guests that will be interviewing. And they’ll be twenty four to twenty nine other guests of panels. Panels that, Amy. That’s true. You’re the only single that I do interview at NTC sometimes. Well, actually, sometimes it’s a panel, but only one person could show up. It could be a panels two or three, but only one. But that’s rare. It’s quite rare, like one or two others. Maybe it’s always at least two people be for the probably eighty percent of the interview interviews that I captured there. All right, we have to wrap that up. Thank you so much. Amy and I will see you. I’LL see you in March. I can’t wait to see you. Great. Thank you very much. She’s Amy Sample Ward Amy sample war dot org’s and at Amy R. S Ward, you goto and ten dot org’s to sign up for nineteen Auntie si next week. Financial fraud with Tiffany couch. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com insiders, you’ll be hearing increasing your productivity with the Eisenhower Matrix with Emily Parks. Get those videos sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers regular cps dot com Bye. Tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna em a slash Tony tell us on by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine A creative producer is clear. Myer, huh? Chris Patera is today’s line. Producer Shows Social Media Is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Duitz. You’re listening to the talking alternate network waiting to get into thinking. Duitz you’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi. I’m nor in Santa potentially eight. Tune in every Tuesday at nine. To ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show Yawned Potential live life Your way on talk radio dot n Y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? 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Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Um, Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant. And on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on Thursdays at twelve Noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant, Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s twelve noon on talk radio Dunaj N. Y. C you’re listening to the talking alternative network.

Nonprofit Radio for November 9, 2018: Buy-In Bitches & Process Blocking Your Progress?

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Carie Lewis Carlson & Lara Koch: Buy-In Bitches
I gave that title to Carie Lewis Carlson and Lara Koch as they explained how to get your boss to listen to you; to get your boss’s buy-in when you get it—and they don’t. They’re savvy, they’re straightforward and they shared tons of strategies. They’re bitchin’. Carie is now with United Way and Lara is at Smithsonian Institutions. (Recorded at #18NTC, the Nonprofit Technology Conference.)

 

 

Stefanie Zasyatkina: Process Blocking Your Progress?
Stefanie Zasyatkina wants you to pay attention to your org’s workflow. Identifying and overcoming pain points and inefficiencies will put your methods in line with your mission. She’s with InReach Solutions. (Also recorded at #18NTC.)

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of neff row calc no, sis, if you wet me down with the idea that you missed today’s show buy-in bitches. I gave that title to carry louis carlson and larry koch as they explained how to get your boss to listen to you to get your boss’s buy-in when you get it and they don’t, they’re savvy, they’re straightforward and they shared tons of strategies. They’re bitchen carriers from clc consulting on larra is at smithsonian institution’s that was recorded in eighteen ntc the non-profit technology conference and process blocking your progress stephanie’s as yak dahna wants you to pay attention to your org’s workflow identifying and overcoming pain points and inefficiencies will put your methods in line with your mission she’s with in reach solutions that’s also recorded at eighteen and tc no time for tony’s take two today these combos was so good i let them run long responded by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant capital p weather. See piela is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com bye tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream durney dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine here are carry louis carlson and larry koch. Welcome to twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference coming to you from the convention center in new orleans, louisiana. All of our ntcdinosaur views are sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guests are carry. Louis carlson carlsen, my voice cracked on calls she’s, the owner of clc consultant and larry koch, associate director of online fund-raising smithsonian institution welcome, ladies. Hi, tony. Are you have you both i’m doing well. Thank you for asking. Thanks for having people. Have you done your session already have mastered outside it’s. All fun from here on out. Exactly. More alcohol on your session topic is real talk how i got my leadership team. So listen to me. All right? Buy-in? Yes. Okay. Okay. From your session description you had a quote. I get it. It’s, my boss. That doesn’t exactly if that’s you talking. This session is for you. Okay. Uh, larry let’s, start with you. Why do we need this topic? This copy came out of on in ten. An ntc that carrie and i were at two years ago. The one in san jose. There was a session on the last day that turned into basically a big therapy session about the work we do and how hard it is. And the things that no one really talks about. Remember our non-profit radio was that sixteen? I don’t unfortunately interesting that you don’t remember the topic. I don’t remember what came out of it. What the tangent was exactly that took over the over the room. And there was one quote, and i wish i knew who to attribute to from that session that where someone said culture, each strategy for breakfast and and it was really stuck with us and this came out over and over about the things that we struggle with and, you know, executive buy-in is something that comes up in almost every session you’re in, but it’s it’s a mystery it’s feels like, oh, just get the executive by and everything would be okay, but how? You know, how is it possible? And i feel like cary and i are living proof that it is possible. It’s a lot of hard work and it’s, you know, on there are strategies that we’ve both employed to make things happen, okay? Carrie, you want to add something to the introductory remarks? Sure, s o like blair said, i mean, every single time we speaking unconference together how to get your boss tio let you do the things you want to do, you’ve covered this topic multiple times. Yeah, yeah, even if the session doesn’t start out with that it and it ends there. Yeah, yeah, and it’s and, you know, most people are sitting in there, they’re listening all these great ideas, they can’t wait to go back and implement them, but they’ve got to get the okay, the budget, the time, whatever it is, and they don’t know how to do it. And so that’s. Why? We wanted to talk about this and like larry said it’s, something that people don’t want to talk about because it could sound like complaining or you know, but we tried to give people actual strategies that we have used to be able to get the buy-in to do a lot of the great things we’ve been able to do together. Okay, so you ladies are the buy-in maven. We try buy-in buy-in matrons know not think of a good alliteration to go with buy-in buy-in your brother’s bad? Okay, i feel like we could use a word, but i’m not sure we can say it on neo-sage radio buy-in okay, that’s perfect that’s what? Love it so and ten nineteen we’ll be back with the hashtag for the session. Yeah, tony, you are setting us up. Please do your coming back. We’re having back-up fund-raising no radio. Okay, good thinking. Okay, okay. We got tactics. Got strategies we get. All right. So the problem is, you know, way feel so passionately about something, but we cannot. We just can’t convince the boss. Is that it? Is it always the sea level? Or it might even just be our immediate? Totally because, you know, they’re getting that pressure shevawn the executives, you know, they’re the ones often in more direct contact with them. And so when you bring an idea to them their thought goes there, having the same thought is i’m going to have to tell my boss how to accomplish this, how to get this done and often, you know that immediate negativity or that immediate reactive no. First here. And people have trouble asking for what they need is just it’s so hard to overcome that initial that initial. No, you no. You hardly even heard anything i heard even made my case yet and it’s already, you know, and then try to overcome that it’s very, very hard and because because non-profits tend to be, you know, such a hierarchy and there’s so much emotion and passion in the work we dio what many people here that know and they back off, they’re done. Carrie, you’re making a point that i threw up. Well, i also want to say, like, one of the things that i was able to show was that i was able to get that full on buy-in relationship that trust all of that with my immediate boss when i was at hsus and he was really a advocate and, you know, backed me up on a lot of my ideas that were able to sell to the executives, which were much harder, and i admitted this in session. I never fully got that buy-in and goal agreement and all those things with our executive suite in the eleven years i was there, it was just there there different priorities different, you know, generation’s, i was going to say that, but yeah, no, it’s true, i think generations way generational shifts in the workplace non-profits are so unprepared for this and and it’s, and it is hurting them now because they don’t know, like our generation doesn’t know how to relate to our sea level executives who have been there for twenty years, and they have different different way of looking at things different priorities, and it causes this this clash. Okay? All right. Let’s, let’s get into some of our tactics. Great tactics, strategies we could use those interchangeably or, you know, i think so. Yeah, i think so. Yeah. Larry let’s start where the number one thing. And, you know, this came up on every slide that we did was getting in being relentless about being in people’s faces and having a stick basically, every time you’re in. A meeting you have, you repeating the same stats and you’re asking the same things over and over only consistency in your own messenger. Yes, exactly. And i’m not giving up right when you hear? No, that was one thing. I think that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. It’s, like my boss says, no, i’m not going to challenge them. Oh, but you should because you have good ideas and you need to advocate for them and you are the ones in the trenches, you’re the ones doing the work, you’re the ones in, you know, conferences like this, you’re seeing what your what your colleagues are doing in the space and you want to apply those things and that no, without a no but or no end and i think that’s where you know, karen, i got the idea of basically going in really prepared, you know, anticipating questions and push back into anticipating the no on dh coming up of strategies. Teo say here’s, how i hear we’re going to do it, here’s, what we’re going to do if we fail here is going to do if we’re going to succeed, and then if you hear that no, is it? You know? Okay. Can i just try it once and we see how it goes. You know, can we test it? Because the data will out. I told the group like, i love one test fail. I want to be wrong because then i can let it go. I can say okay, i thought it would work it didn’t. I’m going to let it go and that’s. Why? You know, but at least we got to try it’s. Time for a break. Pursuing their e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. Have you got in this thing yet? For going to sake? Get it, get it. They take all the secrets from the fastest growing startups that, you know, we can all name off the top of our heads, and they apply those lessons methods to your non-profit it’s free it’s on the listener landing page. You know where the listener landing pages you don’t need me to tell you, but i will. It’s a tony dot m a slash pursuant with a capital p for please. And i suppose that capital p could also be for pursuing now back to carry on. Marah. Then how do you feel with your? With respect to your relationship with your boss? If you advocated for something and it failed. Oh, i can talk about that. Please. This happens a lot and it’s so important to be comfortable with it and accepting and saying that this it’s fine, that it failed, but here’s what we learned and we’ll do this differently next time. Last giving tuesday, right before i left. But i want to focus on your relationship with your boss, right? You pushed and let’s say there was an initial no. And then taking your advice, you challenged it. You gotta buy in for a test. It failed. But you were the advocate for the you would advocate for the failure. Yeah. How does that? How do you feel about the impingement on your relationship with your boss? How do you deal with your boss after that that’s. What i want to get? Well, it depends like that that’s kind of where the early work of developing the relationship and the trust and all of that with your boss and your executives or whoever the decision maker is is so important because because i had a good relationship with my boss and i had spent years on goal agreement and trust and brainstorming and all of these these things that connected us, he is of the mindset of okay, well, here are all the great ideas you’ve had an executed one that didn’t work it’s bound to happen, and i think that that over simplifies it, but that that homework of developing that relationship with your boss ahead of time you’re belong. Yes, and building on those small, easy winds, if that’s what you need to lay that groundwork, but and taking ownership of of of your failures. You know, carrie has a great example. If he was going mention about giving tuesday where she was convinced something was going to work, they put into practice, it did fail and carrie took ownership. She said, i thought this would work. It didn’t. Here’s what we learned here instead of getting defensive and e-giving no it’s ok, s o i wonder what exactly this is your this is your thing. I don’t need permission. Right? White-collar let’s, leave it there. All right, all right. Move on. Yeah. So i came up with the idea of giving away little portable dog bowls. If you got your donation in ahead of time for giving tuesday, we found from years past that that some people do want to get their gifts in early, which i find strange, but, you know, they have their reasons. And the data showed that s o i said, where were you with the dog boat? What kind of organization wear dog bowls with the humane society? Yeah, so naturally, i was like this. I was really excited about it. Well, they gave way, maybe a hundred of them there are still three thousand of them and someone’s cubine hsus and i, you know, i was like, guys, i thought this was gonna work and it didn’t don’t do it next year, right? And they’re not going to, but we did it. And wait that’s not the reason you’re no longer my hope. Not now. E-giving tuesday debacle. No, but i know those bulls are still sit here. Someone and and we were from the organization. Yeah, yeah. Get uco somehow used, you know? And we were both honest in our session that, you know, we had those winds. We had those failures, but in the end both of us did leave we both worked at the humane society together, both of us did leave because in the end ah, you know, we made some progress, but, you know, it wasn’t enough, and those battles with our executives did wear us down eventually. And the first question that somebody asked at the end of this session was, how do you deal with all of this work and all of this emotional toll that this obviously takes on someone to be constantly fighting for your ideas in your staff and all of that likelier said, we weigh both ended up leaving for this reason because you’ve got to know when you can’t do anymore, right? You know, and that’s the thing again, we’re all here for because is we’re all here because we’re passionate people, you know, our jobs are so emotional full of so much emotional labor, which i think makes work non-profit work really interesting on dh, you know that you care, right? And that is, you know, like i said, that’s, where all of our sessions, especially when we present together, tend to end up because, you know, we’re proud of what we’ve accomplished, we’ve had some incredible winds, some incredible successes, but you know that work is constant and because non-profit online and digital marketing and fund-raising changes every single day, it is not something like a digital direct mail where it’s pretty consistent, it’s pretty, you know, the nothing really changes their facebook works one day based on what’s going on right now, who knows? What’s gonna happen for facebook tomorrow, platforms, you change. All right? Yeah. Let’s, go into more more strategies. You got you got one. Carrie. Well, i touched on this, but one of the biggest kind of strategies for me was getting that visibility. I was relentless about getting into staff meetings and executive meetings and being that person that they they recognize so that when i came knocking on the door asking for something they were like, well, you know, carrie has good ideas, and she is smart and well respected or whatever, so that, you know, i told the audience, like, if you’re one of those people that wants to work from home four days a week, you’re gonna have trouble selling your ideas because you’ve got to be around and the executives need teo. No, you and with that comes trust and build a repertoire and all of that’s interesting my last conversation with just about virtual employees and having a virtual organization. So you feel like in this realm, virtual employees are at a disadvantage if they are in leadership roles where they’re they’re selling ideas and managing staff and look like i flexibility. It was the number one reason why i stayed so long where i wass i’m a mom. I want to be able to do things on my own time. But if if i was not there pushing for what i wanted advocating for my staff, them knowing who i was because that’s, how our management was it was very management by walking around like you, you know, you have teo be seen there? Yeah was important. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s nothing where that generational shift really comes into play. Maybe we’ll all be remote employees, you know, fifteen years from now. But right now, in the non-profit space, where again, that hyre kiis so deeply grooved in, you know, it’s being visible. And you know the point that the two women were just in the last interview majors it really is depends on organizational culture, even even that’s what this is all about that even trump’s age, you know, it’s, the organization has a culture that empowers virtual employees, then then they may not have sure just be thinking about is that you’re talking about carrie exactly. You’re right. Its organizational culture. Yeah, ok, let’s, get more more strategies for challenging your boss. Well, you suggested maybe it’s a no end? No, but we could test right that’s that covers sort of challenge of overcoming the no, whether the tactics you should talk about data because you’re the data queen. Yeah, i mean, it all goes back to data and i think a point, you know, having that data having those stats at the tip of your tongue, you know, stats that you’re repeating all the time and, you know, getting execs love numbers very often, they don’t love the same numbers that we love, you know, they’re very focused on different numbers. So a it’s it’s focused on using numbers that mean something to them? Of course, a lot of those our budget numbers and revenue and opportunity costs, carrie is done a lot of work where you know for redesigning the website, for example, when we were able to work with the vendor that’s redesigning that website and identify this is the money we’re leaving on the table right now. We’re having an old website, right? That that those stats make sense to our executives, even if hannity metrics which breaks both mining, carries hard, defend any social metrics. But if you can leave those in with the data that also matters relevant is relevant. Exactly. You know, it is that you trained them over. They will care about that spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine. You know you have twelve thousand followers? No. Okay, so we have that in exactly yes. Yes. You know, we, um example that leads them. Give them some of what they want to get, like, capture their damn war. Of what? The great. Because you know what? You’re the you’re the data expert in the organization. You know what? What? What’s germaine? Yes. So give him a little of what they want. More of what they need. And percentages yes. And percentage, you know exactly. You know, because, for example, smithsonian redesigned their website last year and i was able to get a donation button on the website, which is a big win in the first six weeks of that donation, but and be on the sight we saw six thousand percent increase in donations those Numbers were super tiny, but 6 thousand percent mentioned casually to my boss in the hallway made me look like a superstar, and then they could repeat that elsewhere. But it’s it’s being, you know, unexamined well, one of our favorite examples was what we consider our magnum opus at the main society was our first day of giving on day of giving came as a directive and says, you know, we see university’s doing days of giving everywhere just just do on onda has been restricted. We love understated fund-raising but we knew a day of giving out of nowhere in the middle of what is our biggest low month around springbox arch was going to be a hard sell. We knew we had a restricted program that, you know, touched on all the things that that our constituents labbate hsus being pet speak people’s relationship with their pets, helping people in underserved communities get vet care for their pets we put together a power point that laid everything out from start to finish, including a mixture of vanity metrics and actual mex tricks on dh things like here’s what we do if we fail here’s what we do if we succeed, we went in armed to the teeth, saying, ok, we’ll do this. This is how we’re going to do it, and we did, and we were end. Oh, and also that we need to go dark in everything else we’re doing so we can launch this huge campaign just mere months after our year and fund-raising campaign and, you know, we went in like an army, and we were able to get that message through because, yes, it was the bitches and and we did it, we did it, and it was a huge success, but half a million dollars yes, and repeating that in other ways, no, through other campaigns has allowed us to just, you know, go in almost with an impenetrable armor two and confidence evidence that’s a tough one for a lot of people talk about it more. Well, i think because people are afraid of being told no or that’s a bad idea, or they’re just afraid of the rejection or eleanor failing on dh if you don’t have that culture of innovation and trust and all of that, that could be really intimidating. But i think after a while we start to gain gain our confidence after we’ve we have good ideas and we implement them and they work and we want to do more s o that but i think that’s a hard one for for a lot of people that have that confidence to go in and and say, we’re going to do this or to your boss, no that’s a terrible idea, which yeah, and i had we had six seven people come up to us after and tell their own individual stories of their immovable ceos, you know? And and they, you know, they thanked us for what we talked about, but still you could see the fear in their eyes, you could and and that breaks my heart because again, these are people who want we’re doing mission based work, and we know how we can do it better because we are doing it every single day. That’s the confidence you need to go in with you embrace that? Yeah. And say we were going to do this like when when i decided that it was time to pick up the website, redesign it. Hsus i went to my boss and i said, i’m going to do this this year. I know the money’s there. We’re going to make this happen and i need an outside project manager. I didn’t go in and say, hey, i’d really like to redesign the website. What do you think? You know? And and that also helped him because it’s like i’m not going teo, that was another one of our tactics going with a solution, not just a problem, and that takes a lot of the weight and a lot of the monkey off the off your boss’s back and that builds trust too, because it’s like they’ve got this, you brought me a problem. Yeah, yeah, and my boss used to always say that to me come to me with a solution, not a problem, and then that really also developed that that relationship of trust because he knew that i would handle things. Yeah, see elsie working with smithsonian, we’re not we’re just together. Not not yet, i will say yet. You know, hopefully in the future, but, you know, i would love that because she’s a dynamo. But, you know, we we the bond that we formed working together, allowed us to kind of build that confidence off of one another. You know, we both have different strengths. Um, and, you know, we were able to move mountains at a place that is like i said, it’s old school, it’s, old school. Now it sounds like you suffered together, that there’s, this there’s, this recognized social science concept. I learned it as a brotherhood of suffering, but it could equally apply as assistant of suffering. Prison is, and i don’t mean to analogize hsus prison, but prison is an example. I’ll take it, okay. I have something i want to chat with you. Cause i know somebody very senior there. Oh, so present. Imagine what you’re suffering together. You know that the common suffering day in, day out creates a bond. Yeah, sounds like that. Well, that was another one of our tactics was yes, was creating, like, oh, zoho back-up napor greedy while creating a like a mini culture within our department of trust and all of the things that we wish we had as a larger organization, we build them within the department and you do create this bond and work within your microcosm? Yes. And, you know, manage down, you know, manage, manage up, but also manage down like you wish you were being managed down upon encourage people to come to ideas, let them know it’s okay to fail, let them know that you know you that, you know, there they’re they’re doing different work than we are as their managers. So they’re seeing things that we’re not seeing like something i tell my team now with the smithsonian is, you know, if i want you to come to me and say, if you you know, if if i didn’t if i my plate was clear, this is what? I will be focusing on because i know this one don’t you wish one of our executives would have ever said anything like that tests because i i would give him i would roll out the scroll, it would roll down the hallway carpet exactly, and but i want to hear that because, you know, i’m spending so many plates all the time trying, teo, you know, be in this middle management role, like i am, and i want to be able teo, that my team feels empowered to do that, and i think right now, there are still ceilings that prevent that on dh the, you know non-profits again have, you know, way san tend to respect the ceo’s as as being, you know, and that sea level, as you know, the end all be all right, and they’re not, you know, we were able to do in our world, and i say that this is especially true for non-profit marketing and fund-raising is that, you know, it’s, if you’re not living it, you’re not truly understanding it and until executive see that and give you that leeway, and you’re negotiating with them constantly about what you’re doing what? You know, you can dio on lee. Then do you even start to inch forward? Another thing i did while i was in a leader shit roll at hsus. It sounds kind of silly, but i gave each one of my employees are birthday off and that’s really cool. They get teo, have an extra day off and whatnot. But what it’s really about is showing that i trust them enough to take a day off, that they’re still going to get their work done. And that’s the kind of like an example of the kind of thing that was in our control. You would never get your birthday off. I think as an overall level there that’s just it’s a culture of lika latto non-profits work always on the scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But our employees knew that we trusted them enough that they could take a day off. And i was adamant. And the question that came at the end about how do you deal with all of this? The emotional labor that goes into it. It’s about creating that balance, being relentless about self care and work. Life balance like it is achievable. A lot of times we do it to ourselves because we care so much, but creating boundaries with your your team, your executives, is that that’s how you have teo that’s, what you have to dio in order to keep doing all this work also this idea, please hold your upleaf don’t lose that thought this idea of doing as much as you can within your within what you do have within your purpose exactly as much as you can for the people you do have authority over medicating for your staff. That’s exactly what i was going to say is is being relentless and going back to that repetition, you know, a badge of honor that i wear is always in a in a meeting recently with a strategic planning meeting with a lot of different people, of course organization, many of them hyre level for me. And at one point, someone stopped me and said, we know how you feel about email collection, larry and i was like, great, i’m glad you do, it’s, because i’ve been saying it nonstop. So even if you’re annoyed with me for saying it every time you’re finally listening to me because you know, what’s not happening at the smithsonian emails let’s talk about that, you know, and luckily, i feel like carrie and i are good with people, so we tend to not come off as harsh. We tend to come off maura’s just assertive versus aggressive, but, you know, i i’ve never i’ve had to learn that assertiveness in my in my work-life because it didn’t come naturally to me, it’s something that i’ve learned, and once i saw the progress i was able to make by getting in people’s faces being super, you know, straight and blunt and repetitious and, you know, making that eye contact with them, you know, it’s a skill that i’ve i’ve tried to learn i’ve tried to give to my team a cz well, because, you know, we’re all in these cruise ships on we’re trying to make these terms all the time, and things move very, very, very slowly trying to avoid thinking yes, brothers, ice parents trying to avoid a bow shot, okay, we’re gonna leave it there. You threw a terrific, great thanks. Provenance. I love your energy was a field but i feel the bond between yes buy-in riches you hear in here. First, they are carry louis carlson, owner of clc consulting on larra koch, associate director online fund-raising at smithsonian institution. We are non-profit rate we are non-profit radio covering eighteen ntc on this interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits ladies, thank you so much. You know, it was my pleasure to thank you very much for being with our coverage. We need to take a break when you see piela do you need help with your nine, ninety or your brooks? Are you brooks brooks? I can’t believe i did that again, like last week or your books properly managed. Have you got books? Uh, this time, i wouldn’t even just make sure you’ve got brooks. Have you got them? Do you have good financial oversight in place? This is the stuff that where you can help you with you. Want to talk to the partner? You eat much doom. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust him. He’ll tell you whether they can help. Wagner. Cps dot com now, time for process. Blocking your progress. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighty, ninety si non-profit technology conference. Coming to you from new orleans, this interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guest is stephanie dahna she is director of in reach solutions, and her workshop topic is when process blocks progress workflow, efficiency for non-profits stephanie, welcome to the show. Thank you, penny. What was the need for this? This this topic? Why do we have to talk about this wire? Workflows important. So we are a small agency for case management system, burn non-profits we work in child welfare, and what we do a lot is implement the software with agency, right? A lot of these agencies do they struggle with understanding what they do it’s like you do it on a regular basis, but you don’t know, so i know how to communicate it. So when you’re putting it into ah digital format into a software, we actually have to know what you’re doing in order to get the results that you’re looking for out in reports and things like that. Okay, right? And so if they can’t communicate it clearly it’s hard to know where their pain points are where to help them. And some people just aren’t prepared for that, especially the small agencies. They don’t have the staff on hand that have done kind of analysis of what their current processes are. Alright, so what? What do we do? We need to help non-profits do better than what they need to better understand what their processes are. They dio yeah, yeah, absolutely definitely want to know how, what? There be able to communicate where they’re at to understand where they want teo processes there. Workflow there we were talking about the stuff they do day today. Yes, described it. Okay, uh, how do we help him do this? How do we help them? Hyre? What are we looking first for? The pain points, or we’re just trying to understand what the flows are first. Yeah. Trying to understand what the flows are. The pain points often come out. Burn that? Yeah, absolutely. In that discussion. Okay, so are we mapping? The process is how do we how do we identify what are workflows are? Yes. So it would be lovely, teo. Question. Like time. Like a little boy. Something radio. Make sure do i understand what you’re saying? Yes. Uh, yeah. I mean, do you do? We is that we do. We we mapped the workflows absolutely, yeah. And a lot of that comes out through a discussion of, like, what do you do? You it’s? Not so come on, francis it often times people are so familiar with what they’re doing, that when when they’re talking, when i asked questions about it, they’re actually no, i can’t describe it. They’re not actually sure sometimes they don’t have the right people in the room to make. They’re not getting a full picture. And so it involves a lot of people on the team and they’re different perspectives in order to get the full picture so that we know in the software, what are we planning to do for them? Like, you know, do we want to automate some of the pieces? What? What are we trying to do to improve? They’re coming to us for reasons of their process. Yes, absolutely. So often technology is blamed for problems when really it’s the processes around the technology and maybe even some of the people that are the difficulties is not the technology. No. Well, i mean, it might be the technology i have sometimes astrology is erroneously blame? Yes, absolutely, absolutely because they’d not really sure what the process is and where either pain points are where maybe even where they’re successful in something, what did they want to continue to keep when they moved to the next? The next piece of software? Okay, wth this all relates down to efficiency, right? Absolutely more efficient, effective, faint on we only do that by being introspective about what, what it is we’re doing and it’s not even that everything is completely about efficiency mean that it’s going to like help with the bottom line and with staying in budget, but i think i do, does your process actually reflect? Your mission is important as well, so they’re definitely things where we’ve done internal processes for my organization, that we’ve changed and what we’re choosing not to make videos let’s say to make things super efficient and not cost so much because our mission is to empower organizations it’s really like partner with them and work with them so we’re actually work. We’ve chosen to speak live, you know, with our clients and because we feel like that’s really, really important rather than sending them off to just support guides all the time. That makes sense, right? So it’s, like you need you need both. Not only are you looking for efficiencies, which definitely is is going to be a value for your organization, but doesn’t mission. This mission comes suddenly. All right, so if we do want to identify our workflows and then pain points emerged from that what wei have technology? Teo, are you said, based on discussions, how do we start to work? How do we stop the map? Are flu’s rate of information and work through the office? So we actually like in the workshop, what we’re going to talk about is you have done yours, you know, it’s tomorrow, tomorrow and the day so you’re still one thirty is still thinking about it. Yeah, always thinking about that because you have already finished there. Right? Right. Right. You having? No, not yet. No. I’ve so that together we felt to be good tonight. Last finale is so how do we get this started? So the way that we like to do it, we’ve watched there’s this really excellent ted talks by a man named ted head. Tom would tom. Logic and he talks about i’m taking a really simple process so that people understand why it’s even important to due process mapping and he does it with with toast, right? So something that we’re all fairly familiar with this, how do you make toast taking that? And so that’s, what within the workshop we’re going to do is diagramming toast get people all on the same page that we understand that were regularly building process and then it’s interesting cause then every every piece of every action item that you would do to move your process from step one two step z. Okay, you will you khun sticky note it. And when we sticky note then we have the ability to be flexible with our process who’s in the room when we’re doing this, because listen, listeners don’t have the benefit of being at your workshop. That’s why that’s? Why i’m here get demanding you to another twelve thousand people who move, some of whom may be here, but not all of them, obviously so they’re not going to see your your toast diet totally. Yeah, workflows but this is something we can take. Okay, way. Have sticky notes. Who belongs in the room when we start doing this, key stakeholders are in the room so it can be executive level, but i think it’s also the people who are literally doing the work, they need to be heard and understood because there may be points of process, nobody knows that they don’t know that they’re doing i’m taking the information from jessica and bringing that in, but, well, how do you get that information? I just call her up right under an email and tell her that i need the info now for these three cases, right? We have, and then later today i’ll need some or totally informal think we don’t know that’s going on exactly know they don’t know we’ve had a client recently that, like what your name is, jessica. I don’t know, stefan. I know. There’s pulling around on the name anyway, i ok? It was random. I don’t. I don’t think your name. Just thank you. News that we have a client that literally walks from their office paperwork over to another office. They literally walks. Were like this. Amazing. You’re to save five hundred steps every day. You have to find another. Way to get those steps in for your counters, whatever, but okay, okay. So so in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dahna so in the room, we have a whiteboard and we have post it notes, we’re all the stakeholders and all the people it’s, the stakeholders, people doing the work, people doing the where we will also have senior staff, all right? And we’re taking a process. Like what? How do we define a process? So i like to think of it in sections, so don’t think of it necessarily likes top to bottom, group it into, like, parts of the process, so make it understandable, relatable, really quickly so that you can start tio drill down more into more complex process is because a lot of times processes are nested, right? So during a licensing process let’s say you would part of it is seeming background checks. Part of it is getting documentation, part of it, a signing documentation part of it is writing a home study, and then you’re going to, like, take it up to the state. Okay, there’s, lots of different processes. And before we just say okay, we do one, two, three that might be a good way to go about. It is just ordering what you khun d’oh. I like to section it, so that it’s more manageable chunks that make sense, okay, of course, those and then and then put the chunks together. Yes, then you’ll see the whole top to bottom, right, then you will see everything together, and because it becomes very overwhelming, if you look at the whole process, right, and we work with adoption, foster care agency license against one part of that process. So it’s, knowing windows licensing come in, what happens before what happens after, but looking at one chunk at a time so that you can organized that, okay? And then when you’ve got okay for step, one of the licensing process is we send some email to a family. We then can use it, used that on a sticky note and talk about that is like, how is that getting done? Is that scent through email or we mailing? Why would we? Male versus versace sent email and so you start to have discussions and probably like you said, executive level may not have any idea that actually paper males actually going out and that all the packets are in different locations or the documentation that needs to go not back. It might be, you know, there’s things that start to go come to light that aren’t necessarily known by everybody as as the stakeholder. Everybody who should be in the room. Okay, we got to take a break. Tellers it’s the time it’s time now start thinking of the companies that you can refer and ask them to switch to tell us you’ve heard the testimonials from both sides, from the charities and from the companies. For goodness sake, it’s. Time to start investing in your long term passive revenue month after month, you get fifty percent of the card fees that go to tell us. Start with the video at tony dahna slash tony tello’s now back. To stephanie’s as yak dahna from eighteen ntc then, after we’ve we’ve done our map of the process. What are we? Well, he’s had a lot of conversations going to emerge out of this just out of the mapping exercise, right and pain points, my voice cracked, sorry, like i’m fourteen sametz main points are going to emerge and that’s where we can maybe applies and technology make things more efficient. Certainly yeah, or at least change, you know, or maybe maybe the process even shouldn’t change, but we need to understand why we’re doing it this way. Is there a good reason for doing it this way? And is there a reason for not changing? That happens sometimes? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, it’s not that everything in your process needs to change. A lot of times you got where you are because you’re processes is working it’s just there’s some reason that drove you to be two, to need to look at your process or like, you know, here we are at this technology conference. A lot of times it is to adopt a new technology because something doesn’t quite fit, you’re right? Yeah, white hair on my sweat, believe, is a foolish thing. Off there would have been your clothes. Have his white hair on my sweater. I can’t get it out because it’s so close, i can see right so close by, you see a double, and i kept grabbing the a fake one, all right, i got it. Little host digression. Okay, so there’s more to say about this. So i know part of your presentation is going to be mapping, toast, our journey, but we don’t. We’re not gonna do that here. No, but we still have another, you know, ten, fifty miss together. So what are we going toe whatmore, do small and midsize. Non-profits did you know about this workflows process so that they can scrutinized their own? I mean, it’s it’s important? No know going into it, it’s gonna be a dip, a difficult discussion. It is always important to bring in all the players, right? And really, even though we on the radio aren’t doing that exercise, it is an excellent exercise, too. Open up people’s minds to that. We all understand how to diagram. Can we talk about it when we talk through the toast example? Totally, you know, no, i don’t think it has to be visual, right? So this is we’re using this as an example of how to map your your own workflows process? Yes, exactly. And it’s in it’s ah, like an exercise. You can literally do this exercise with your team, so it feels kind of like, why would i do this? But it brings laughter. It brings cohesion on, but also brazen understanding of oh, we all see things from different perspectives, and when we actually talk about it and get it out in the open, we can see that and then improve our process because that might have been some of the problem is that you don’t actually know what other people are doing. I’m a little skeptical. That we were going to bring all this out. Okay. All right. So go ahead. Your facilitator get us get started. So the first part of the program are the exercise is going to be teo, actually diagram. So with a piece of paper and you are going to draw an image of how toast goes from, you know, a piece of bread, two toasts on whatever it might be. So for me, i used the toaster in other countries. They use a saute pan, and here it is, right at the end of the toast. Maybe you just want to eat it plain and dry. Maybe some people don’t. Maybe they put butter on it. Maybe they put jelly. I was. I did this presentation in in california earlier. There was a gentleman from australia. He puts vegemite. Right? It’s. Like what? What are the different people bringing some people? Look at these examples as very people center. Some people are very, very detailed. Some people keep it real simple. Well, i mean, i mean included in this. You have to go to the go to the pantry or the refrigerator where you store your bread, right? I mean you got to get you gotta get the substance first. Some people may not remember that step and what’s interesting. I actually just spoke with a client. It was very good that i thought that absolutely, yeah, i appreciate that. Okay, so so i just spoke with a claim who’s actually used the example in in her non-profit setting in the foster care agency she works with, and what she found was interesting is that she now knows kind of what people think. Look how they think about what they’re doing and what do they need? Right? So she gave a really great example of one of the women needed. All of the resource is before i get started, i need have the jelly neto have the toast they need tohave the plate, right? Whatever really isn’t a plant she’s a planner, and that opened her eyes to how to better communicate with that person because not everybody comes at it that way. When i draw the toast, i get the plate in the middle. I also like we always joke about it isn’t like i’m single mom, some like doing the dishes when the toast is down, i’m doing. Something else? Because i’m gonna be super efficient. Ok? Ok. All right. So okay. So there’s, other value in this do? Yeah. In terms of understanding. People’s work personalities. Exactly. Alright. All right. What? We teach us a little more? Yeah, totally. But i want value. Not just, you know, not just filler. So what else? All right. So, you know, in terms of what? What else? What else have you learned from this? Well, so then step two is to then take all of these action items. Make the sticky notes, right? Okay. And so the point of the sticky notes is our brains actually work better with what goes on. A sticky note. All of the action items. All of the action items. So refrigerator walked to the refrigerator. Goldenburg, bring the knife out, get the jelly, get the bread pushed down the toaster, right? If you forget any of those steps, you have an opportunity to actually include them. You can also reorganize them. So if you find that it’s more efficient to get the plate and the jelly and the toaster and the bread and all of these resource is beforehand, you can move them from where i had them right in the middle, right up to the front, which means that you might need. A pantry to store all these things. Right? So, like, how can you make that part more efficient? Sometimes your eyes roll back in your head you know you just when you’re thinking when you’re thinking i thought you were having having a stroke no, your eyes roll back. Wait now i do a lot all wait, i don’t just recently started tio have been crossing but it’s like they’re rolling back like a stroke do that i have no idea it’s all white, everything becomes white there’s just eyelashes and it’s probably can’t do it on your unconsciously thinking yeah is going real first time i let it go one first time let it go. But now you’re going to call it. Thanks. Probably nobody noticed. Well, everybody’s going to know my eyes turn way another twelve thousand part castles. They definitely did not notice. Okay. All right. So you have fun here non-profit radio because you were not gonna have fun. Then before they’ll buy d’oh bother. I dragged my ass over here. Sit down. I don’t always you know, tio new orleans. I mean, it’s. A great city. Okay, i know it is, but i would have been here if it weren’t for ntcdinosaur, probably on the beach in north carolina, anyway, okay, that’s, a host aggression again, uh, all right, so what, the post it note stage every little step, and then you, khun decided i could re order you, khun reorder and s o tom says that the the ease with which we can re order it makes us more likely to improve the process, right, are were more willing to improve. We’re willing to change things when it feels feasible and easy to do that if we can’t. If it feels like you know my team member created diagram on. Some program, right? So it’s got the arrows like power point or something, right? Like she’s did this all this work to make this process look like that i’m less likely to go in? Terrible her work, but sticky notes a really easy there, real cheap. They’re very like budget friendly, obviously for organizations. And this toast exercise really again just allows you to be free flowing with it. Part three okay, let’s move on a par three is then to take everybody’s individual sticky notes and put them together. So now you’re actually building cohesion. You’re hearing actually what other mobile one? You’re putting them up on the board? I am tryingto rationalized them all into the same process. Exactly what? Some people, some people have some steps and other people skip those steps and everything. They might not plug in the toaster nothing’s going to happen if you press that down, right and so it’s like you can pull all the all the pieces. This is where where someone is walking. You know, the folder from one organization to another. You realize that that you didn’t realize that was actually happening before you finally get to hear everybody’s. Voice time for our last break text to give quote, i compared a bunch of companies in my search for a text to donate company and text to give is the best hands down. They have been helpful beyond helpful. I can’t imagine anyone doing this better exclamation mark clyne and quote that’s lauren bouchard from global commission partners in clermont, florida. You heard her last week also, you want to get text to give you want to do mobile giving? This is the company you need. It’s simple secure for info text npr to four, four, four, nine nine, nine. We’ve got several more minutes for process blocking. Your progress is there? Step for no. Well, so that’s that’s the exercise. But then the thing is, is guess set for i guess. Yes. Retract what i said. Yes, there is a step forward is to do this with your own processes. Right? Soto, look at this really complex process. You need to organize it into smaller chunks that are more manageable. Right? And then you can diagram it. You khun sticky. Note it. You can work together and bring in where what? The program manager believes that the process is and then that people who might actually be doing that process and hearing like i brought up this home study or the licensing process there are certainly program managers that are approving, they might initiate part of the process, they are connecting that process with the case manager with social worker, all these people were coming together to make this process happen. There’s also external factors like the state agency or the back where the background checks are being done, or the people who have to approve the home study. So there’s all these people at play and it really helps to bring a fuller circle because the program manager might only be connected with the case manager and a social worker. But these people are connected to the state agencies. And where does the family come involved? Right? So you’re pulling ever you’re being able to see everybody okay? Now in your own organizations, if you’re not doing this kind of work, uh, there may be processes that that you’re just not comfortable with. Maybe maybe even before the before you identify specific pain points, you just know that something is something is not right about the way. We i don’t know, acknowledge process donations and send acknowledgements, you know, there’s something that it takes us too long. It feels like it’s harder for us than it is for my friends and other organizations. So that might be a a rationale for applying this process. Absolutely. That process, you know, playing this this exercise to that process? Yeah. Okay. Okay. And really, i mean, tony, you can also mean we’re always doing process, so i love this book. I might get the title a little bit wrong, but it’s like the life changing magic of cleaning tidying up kayman and she actually discusses process in our life. It’s just like spring cleaning every year. But she organizes all of your items in your house into certain groups. Then she you take out what’s what’s not needed. You hold it up, right? And so i’ve talked about the mission is like holding it up to you. Do i feel joy when i touch this item? If no it’s gone it’s no longer part of the process like part of the process, i guess when you’re combining and you’re finding that cohesion with all your team members is going back and aligning with you’re mission and even even the mission or the mission of whatever project you’re working on, right? So if it is your donations and acknowledgements, you’re wanting to get those out krauz making sure that that aligns with how you run your organization, the values of your organization, how you value your donor. Yeah, okay, i mean, because a lot of times donors are multifaceted and how they work with your organization, so they’re not just offering funds to you like they might be boardmember sze, they might have been volunteers, some of the agencies that we work with, they it might have been families. So how are you touching all of these these people who have multiple connections to your organization? Okay, okay. And i like how you bring it back to mission also mean that mission it’s soo in importance, whatever, whatever this processes that you’re being interest. Really, really, this is organizational introspection, right? I mean, way i see it, you’re you’re, you’re taking a deeper look at yourself as an organization. How do you work? Yeah, absolutely. And i mean, like i said to write, so i didn’t want to throw in that. That book just because it felt really good it’s, just like you would do spring cleaning annually, you’ve got you’ve got to constantly go back to this, so sometimes your mission might be stale. Your people aren’t feeling it. I mean, you just have a sense if you’re in the organization so ambitious it’s out of the mission is dale, it could be it couldn’t be, could there is potential for that, right? So it may or may not. One of the things in certainly in the workshop that we’re going to talk about is actually making people also relate to the mission. So just like the process of mapping out where your processes making it possible so that your team actually feels the mission that they relate to it that’s not an abstract idea if it is a top down or as you’ve added people into your organization over time, though it could be you. Yes, you may have. Your mission may have become less relevant dahna or you may have strayed from it. Diluted it. Oh, are you? The mission itself may require evaluation. We re thinking absolutely. Yeah. Okay. That’s. A very healthy exercise. We’re gonna leave. It there. Okay. All right. She is stephanie and she’s director of n reached solutions. I said it right there. Bear close. Yes, grayce newsjacking yes. Okay. And my interview with her with stephanie sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits thank you so much for being with non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc next week. Guess if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled durney dahna slash pursuing capital p when you see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com bye! Tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream durney dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine nine, nine a creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez mark silverman is our web guy and this cool music is by scott stein. Thank you for that information. Scotty. Been a long time. You with me? Next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get you thinking. E-giving cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in some type of potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time, and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c wait. 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Nonprofit Radio for November 2, 2018: Working Virtual & Map Your Data To Your Audiences

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Heather Martin & Alice Hendricks: Working Virtual
We talk through the issues encountered when managing remote staff: technological; generational; emotional; measurement; recruiting and retaining. Our panel is Heather Martin from Interfaith Family and Alice Hendricks with Jackson River. (Recorded at #18NTC, the Nonprofit Technology Conference.)

 

 

Courtney Clark & David Mascarina: Map Your Data To Your Audiences
Feed your folks the data they crave. Courtney Clark and David Mascarina have identified 5 audience types and their data needs. She’s with Forum One and he’s from the Conrad N. Hilton Foundation. (Also recorded at #18NTC.)

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with strep. Oh, simba, leah if i had to read that you missed today’s show working virtual we talk through the issues encountered when managing remote staff technological, generational, emotional measurement, recruiting and retaining. Our panel is heather martin from inter faith family and alice hendricks with jackson river. I was recorded at eighteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference and map your data to your audiences. Feed your folks the data they crave. Courtney clarke and david mask arena have identified five audience types and their data needs she’s with forum one and he’s fromthe conrad and hilton foundation that’s also recorded at eighteen. Auntie si, tony, take two who’s on first, we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising david driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant capital p well, you see, piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps dot com bye! Tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Here’s working virtual welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference twenty eighteen we’re coming to you from the convention center in new orleans second interview of the second day of our coverage all our ntcdinosaur interviews are sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guests right now are heather martin, ceo of inter paid family, and alice hendricks, ceo of jackson river. Heather alice, welcome. Thank you. Welcome to non-profit radio. What have you wanted to be here? How’s? The conference going for you ladies? Great. Have you done? Yeah. Excellent. Okay, great. Next one. That goes good. Superlative. Have you done your session yet? We did. We were on yesterday morning. Okay. So, it’s all relaxing now? Right now, we’re just partying. Drinks last night. Exactly. Okay, all right. Your workshop topic is working virtual attracting and managing the best talent. I’m sure we have stats on how many organs non-profits have virtual employees. Or at least what the trends are. It’s it’s obviously growing. It’s really growing wouldn’t be here. And not only in the nonprofit world in the for-profit world as well, and especially in tech. Yeah, okay, absolutely it’s becoming it because of the technology that can enable easily to work from home, your chat technologies, videoconferencing, it’s become a thing and everyone is doing it now on exploring whether it works for their organizations a lot. Let me dive into the word, everyone not to quibble with you at all, but i was thinking generationally, are there fifty and sixty some things that are comfortable working, being virtual? Not well, maybe we’ll get to whether they’re comfortable having virtual employees. They will get to that. My voice is cracked like i’m fourteen get that, but how about being virtual employees themselves? Are they comfortable? I’m over fifty, so include myself in that? Are we comfortable doing that? Or, you know, i think it actually depends on the organization and it’s really dependent on the organization making the employees comfortable, and so i’m not sure i don’t know if you have any stats, but i don’t know from an age perspective, there’s a very good question about an older generation being comfortable having virtual employees under the managing them, however, as being the virtual employee, i think it’s all about how the organisation sets it up. Okay. Excellent. All right, so that there’s promised them for those fifteen. Sixty something? Absolutely. Okay. Okay, let’s, talk about it. Since since we’re skirting around it, how about comfort or discomfort with having employees being virtual when you’re over fifty? So i again, i i think that there might be an age discrepancy in the comfort, but i also think it’s just personality, and i’m finding that when i talked to a lot of people who are looking to work virtual and they’re asking me, what can i do to go to my manager, my supervisor and quote unquote, sell them on me working virtually my answer to them is find out what the resistance is. There is part of the resistance as we’ve always done it this way i need to see my employees to know that they’re working. And how do you get around that? Some of the key things that we talked about in our session are setting very clear goals and making sure that those goals are being met. But let’s, go to alice talk to flush out the gold. Gold setting a little. Yeah, i mean, i think that there’s not that much difference in terms of goal setting in terms of accountability for delivery, bols, that you’re supposed to be doing so used that the real issue is communication making sure you have a structure where there’s frequent communication and proof that you’re doing the delivery ble. So you’re measured not on a punch clock style of i get to work at nine. And i leave at five. And therefore i must have worked during that eight hour period you’re measured based on what is the work you were set out to do. And did you actually do that work in the time period? I said i would do it. So if you’re a project manager are working on a program area you work with your you work with your supervisor on here, the things that i’m going to get done at a particular time. And if that’s not done that’s ah, that that could be a concerned that’s a problem, but that’d be a problem in the non workplace too, but rather than time. It’s mostly based on work product. Okay, okay. So that should apply even if you don’t have any virtual, i think one of the things we found is that working virtually is this, or managing virtually is the same as managing in an office. But you just have to be much more intentional about what you’re doing. Much more intentional about your communication, understanding that you’re not gonna have that water cooler conversation, that someone’s not going over here. Something and understand where you are in a project and b ready to communicate with those people who are not physically in the office. But the management and the psychology of the management is very similar. Okay, it’s, very valuable, you know, and make explicit. Yeah. How about attracting people, teo a virtual or attracting the right talent so that we’re comfortable that they’re gonna work in this work environment? What do you, what you thought? Well, there’s. Two thoughts on that that i have one is what one is that your talent pool is the entire country or world, should you see fit? And there are wonderfully talented people in places that aren’t in the city or town in which your organization is located, and it gives you this ability to recruit from a wide place. And you can also hyre incredibly talented people from who have a wonderful life style. In a less cost of in my organization, we have people who live in a lower cost of living state than washington, d c where were based, and that allows me to provide a living wage and for my employees in that. But the other thing is just you, when you’re recruiting, you have to be very mindful of the interview process, and i think one of the things we talked about in our session was helping people figure out who these folks, how well they’ll respond to working virtually how do you do that in an interview? Yeah, who’s best with that, heather so so some of the things that that we recommend, some of the things that we recommend is number one, we use technology as a tool to enhance communication in a virtual environment. So sometimes you’re using video comp, renting just for a regular meeting, and you’re talking through instant messenger and there’s other ways you’re using technology. So in the interview process, i always recommend that people use the technology that you’re going to require those employees to be using during their job if they can’t do an interview on skype or zoom or appearance and it’s very uncomfortable, it’s not to say that that might not be a good employee for you, but you have to be aware that there might need to be some training or development on that tool for them and no going. Into that is important when you’re hiring that person, and if you see generally a discomfort with technology that’s a pretty big red flag, or or or a red flag that you might need to overcome or that person’s not right for the position, and then the other question is some positions just don’t lend themselves to working virtually, and you have to be aware of that when you’re hiring also what are from? Well, one of the easiest ones that we look at it if you’re an office manager and you’re managing the physical office days, it’s really difficult to be virtual when you need thio notice that there’s a crack in the ceiling where the vendor needs toe, you know, deliver something and be their way. We don’t have a tool for measuring the coffee level. Zack remotely happen. And now there’s an app for that you can probably it’s time for a break pursuing they’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They want you to see this because they’ve taken the secrets from the fastest growing startups and applied those to your non-profit it’s free as all the pursuant resource is, are you accustomed to that? Come on, it doesn’t even bear saying it’s on the listener landing page that’s at do you know where tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for please now back to working virtual or any others that stand out to you? I think it depends on the industry and what the job you’re doing. If you’re someone who does intake or you have to be there to welcome people into the office, you need someone physically there. There may be hybrids where sometimes people could work in the office and sometimes people could work from home. And i think thinking this through before you moved to a virtual environment or virtual job for that specific role is ki you can’t just say, ok, tomorrow we’re just gonna go virtual zoho alice, how do you how do you create this environment? Gonna be hospitable? Toe virtual? I mean it’s all about culture. You have to create a culture where everyone is communicating well with each other, where people know what the expectation is on response times of communication has got to start at the top. It has to start a willingness that you absolutely to accommodate virtual employees. Okay, so it starts there and how does that how does the ceo trickling down? You adhere to it. So rather than walking from my office into someone else’s office and telling them what i think they should know that maybe two other people who aren’t physically, they’re also need to know i will do that on a slack channel, for example. So i’ll use an instant messenger chat program, and i’ll put them all on the channel and talk to them all together at once, even though you were the mark, even if that’s the situation. Yeah, because it requires amount of discipline because you don’t want to leave people out. The interstitial conversation that happens at the water cooler can also be done virtually and that’s pretty important, too. Okay. All right. We’re going to get the tools you mentioned. Slack, slack channel. Is that that it’s? All okay, okay. A chat. It’s. Simple chance a chance. A chance for you. You’re over my head, but i’m trainable. Alt-right i could be a virtual employees trust way. Mind of some technology challenges there, but we could get there. I’ll be there immediately. Got the radio stuff? Yeah. I’m very good at that. I mean, i got knobs and everything in front of buttons and all. I don’t know what they do. Okay, what else? Uh, anything else about creating the environment, making inhospitable? I think some of the things that seem or some of the other things are making sure that your remote employees have the tools, whether it’s, the technology or even a monitor to go along with that laptop that you’ve given them because some some people who go into a new job, they’re given a laptop, they say work from home and it’s not as easy as just is your home office conducive and being able to help them think through what are the things that they need to set up in a virtual environment to make them successful and effective at what they’re doing. We talked about it a little bit about security and knowing what the security measures are. You can’t go into a coffee shop and work from your computer. Number one. Are you on the y fire you on the public wifi? Are you on a virtual private network? Are you using your hot spot? You’ve to go the bathroom and your computer’s sitting in starbucks do you leave it there and ask the person next youto watch your computer while you go to i mean, we set policies around these things, especially in organizations that have a lot of regulations on data and accessibility for their information. These are things you have to think about when you’re creating a virtual environment. Okay? It could be hip, baby what’s the credit card p c m p c i b c i okay, what do you do when you’re at starbucks alone? You’re on you’re on a vpn virtual private network? Yeah, you have to go the bathroom. You gotta close up. You use the diaper changing table in and you pull it down in the restroom and put your laptop on that. Take care of your business. Okay? It’s? Very. You know, i love the ditty gritty. This are listen, i mean, we’re all about real life here. Way need detail. You need clear policies around policies that people sign and everyone is very well aware of what the security policies, our protection use of technology. You said the company’s versus your pride, your personal technology home versus away from home. Okay, all right. Help me out here. Getting else what else belongs all this? What else belongs in our policy? Well, so there’s, we’re talking about there’s communication policies. How? I mean, one of the things that we found when we first started having more virtual employees. We started as an in office, evan was in the office, and as we grew into different communities, we had employees in different cities and states than our headquarters were located in and things like when i sent an email, i just need you to acknowledge that the email resent if you’re in the office and i send you an e mail and you haven’t responded, i could walk into your office and say, hey, you get my e mail even if you’re not ready to respond to it. I know you’ve gotten it, and by five o’clock that day, i’ll get an answer when someone’s virtual and you send an e mail, you have no idea if it got lost, did it go into their spam and you have to get some kind of communication with one quick got it. So we said a communication policy that says if i asked you something or requested something, you send an email back saying, i got it, and i’ll get back to you by wednesday period the end it’s all set, and so that that you need to be very much more aware of those types of things and other community way have communication policies that go along with that. Okay, alice, you want teo or policy statement? I mean, the security, i think, is the most important, you know, the email security, the hacking potentials. You know what happens also, when someone is let go, the lockout procedures, they have access to all of your systems, and they’re, you know, in north dakota somewhere to coffee shop, you have to shut down all of their access to things. So all of that needs to be planned at the level in the company. What are you going to do and how you handling staff with remote devices? Can we do this if we don’t have a dedicated staff person? And we don’t have a dedicated staff person? Yes, face-to-face so the family says the answer is yes, okay, because are you know, we’re small and midsize non-profits in this audience, listeners. So you you on board someone with technology when they leave, you do the same thing on lee with a virtual person, you don’t physically have them there, and so you have to do the same thing you would do if someone was in the office, but make sure you couldn’t do it while they’re not physically there. How did they get your computer back to you? Do they fedex it to you? Are you going to go pick it up somewhere if they’re not there? And so just those types of things need to be thought through, okay? No. Excellent. I love the policy statement details because this is stuff you have to think through, and then alice to your point, has to be activated, implemented on from the top absolutely can’t just have a policy and ignore it. You know, if if it’s the ceo hyre it’s a sea level person whose whose distant you know, they too have to say, i got your e mail and i’ll get back to you by wednesday, everybody has to play by the same rules. There shouldn’t be exceptions or any accommodations or anything else. Yeah. Okay, um, how about let’s talk about some of the needs that your remote staff has we’ve been talking about managing the office? What what special needs to the people? But we only see a couple of times a year that’s a great question, okay? I mean, i think they way it took that long, they need community, they need a partner, they need a buddy, they need to know that they’re not all alone. I’m so frequent meetings daily standup calls on dh heather’s organization native oppcoll standup called well, it’s a it’s, a phrase for a daily time when you just spend fifteen minutes sort of roll going around the company’s saying who’s doing what that day or our a team, if you’re working on a project together, you know everyone’s together on either a video chat or a conference call, or it could even be during us dahna slack channel or a skype group or a google hangout, or any type of technology that people can come together for a period of time. The more frequent that happens, the more connected they feel, and there is an issue of feeling lonely, it’s not that you’re just going off on your back room and typing all day long on your own, you need to be part of a community and part of a team. And the technology helps enable that. And heather’s organization there’s you do? What is it a buddy? So anyone who is new who comes on board there’s a couple things we do one is, no matter what level you’re at, you come to boston for a couple days, toe on board. You actually see physical people that’s probably essential. It’s, really? It was one of like he learnings when i started working virtually is to know that there’s a physical person and a physical space or just seeing meeting someone face-to-face gives you much more of a connection to them immediately. The other thing we do is when we hire people we kind of give them we give them a partner. So we hyre associate director her in l a and we put them with the associate director in atlanta. This is not a mentor. This is not a supervisor. This is someone you can ask the dumb questions too. Like, how do i get my expenses paid? Or i’m sure they told me this during orientation, but i don’t know what. To do about x, y and z and just having that person that you know you can go to is critical, especially when you’re by yourself in an office or in your home, and you’re trying to go up the learning curve of starting a new job. Okay? All right? What else? Uh, anything else to be a empathetic to our remote employees again, this is a typical management. I would say this you should be doing this any time is just everyone’s intent is good. Assume that is good and there’s a good intent all all the time. That could be that that that’s going to have implications for chatting any female? No, you can’t you’ll never hear the well, not never, but most of the communications you’re not going to hear the inflection in the person you don’t see the sometimes you don’t see the physical, you don’t see the physical, you don’t get the inflection, and so before you jump into anything or someone sent and i get this all the time and sends me an email and says i need blank, well, that could be taken in so many different ways. Are you demanding something from me did ice not get you something there’s so much in just those three words? And so my first thing is tio okay, they have good intentions. Let me follow-up you need blank by when? What is this for? Get mohr information, they’re not now. They could be like you haven’t done something, i need it now and could be screaming it could be screaming at you with the default is the default is not do that and what we do actually, as we have everyone’s created communications charter that says how they like to be interacted with. And so i understand if you are one of these people who sends very short emails, i also have the flipside where someone sends me seven paragraph emails to describe one thing. And so if i understand how you interact, i could read that email with that understanding, not teo immediately assume that you’re yelling at me in the e mails. Excellent. Okay, very valuable. Are anything else? Anything else to be supportive again? Empathetic to the remote employees if we covered it, recovered it? But i want to make sure we’re the only other thing i can think of is definitely getting together at least once a year with the whole team culture building wants that, yeah, it’s tough, it’s, tough in a non-profit environment where you’ve got a very tight budget, but we have prioritized and all in person meeting in boston, so we’ve got staff in california, in chicago, in atlanta and philadelphia. We make sure that we try in our budgeting process to bring everyone to boston for two days during the summer, not only for good brainstorming and thinking and strategy conversations, but also so they can connect with each other and have that community and build that in person conversation and feel comfortable with each other, and you feel like once a year is sufficient, you know, if i had the budget to do it more, i want a little longer, but all of that, yes. And so you have to take it for one of the that the tools that we talk about is the airplane. I mean, yes, it’s expensive, but it’s a really helpful tool to really get past some of the boundaries that are put up when you don’t actually physically meet in person. Alice, do you have a virtual employees also? Jackson river, thirty thirty. Thirty. Revoting entire organization is ritual. Oh, my god. Okay, where’s, the is there a physical office? There is a physical office with three people in washington d c yeah, but so we all behave as if were virtual. And there are many days that i don’t go into the office so in it. So you know, it saves a lot of money and transportation costs. It stays dry cleaning bills for everyone. It saves child care expenses. If you know it’s a very great way to have a lifestyle. Because yu yu have that flexibility, there’s also downsides to it. There are days that i wake up in the morning at six a, m and check email and all the sudden it’s too. And i haven’t eaten breakfast yet. And then i’m until six at night. So you know it’s a the same type of work-life integration needs to happen in a virtual environment as well as a physical office space. You know, you need to know how to take a break. You mentioned saving childcare expenses. So so the the remote employee it needs to be understood that the remote employee may not be immediately accessible right for a quick, you know, for for a last minute way gotta talk right now. So i think it’s about have something going on that is going to hold him up for ten or fifteen way try and make sure that people have adequate coverage to do their job during the day, the hours that they need to work. So we have a lot of employees that are at thirty hours a week because they want to spend more time with their families. Um, older children can be met at the bus stop and take care of themselves for a few hours in the afternoon, but the expectations of performance are still there. You know, we’re pretty high street standards of that, you know, we don’t want you to be distracted from your work. He managed the west coast versus east coast. Well, what is the west coast people have to do? The westfield people have to start at six a m local time. I think a lot of people do different policies on that. Our policy is that you work for the day that work the business day in the time zone in which you live. So it’s, sometimes hard if we’re dealing with europe and the west coast at at the same time because the time zones i don’t overlap is, well, every boy’s in europe, we don’t have employees in your body to have clients in europe. So it’s ah it’s a situation where we have to manage that, but there are organizations that have west coast people working east coast, ours you have that way don’t have explicit policy that you work those hours, but we ask people how early on the west coast, how early would you be willing to have a meeting? So we will not set meetings with some people? Some people are early morning people and they would rather work from seven to three rather than nine to five, and so we’ll work with your schedule individually and so we so there are some meetings i will have on the west coast is seven o’clock in the morning, but that’s due to that person willing to do that, we have a few minutes left still let’s talk about some of the tech tech tools back-up that was i gotta ask you about slack. But what? Black dot com how? Do we find it or what you do for us? Blackbaud comets, how you find it, you know, it’s it’s equivalent to skype or there’s google chat any type of chat software where everyone can log into and then there’s you can make groups in them. So the term for a group in slack is called a channel. And in our organization we have a channel for one of the channels is named lunch and if you’re going to be away for twenty minutes are going to lunch. We just take we just like everyone who’s in the company on that channel and say, hey, stepping away for a bit, i’ll be back in half an hour so we are all know it’s almost a cz though you would see me walk out the door, you know, and i instead of walking out the door i’m just telling that channel what’s happening there’s channels for each project also. So slack is a good one. Scott argast black is already a verb. Just like someone you’d like someone it’s a verbal. You skype someone you trust someone. Do you remember a well, instant messenger? That that was a one man was that you could use that well, i was. But okay, so slack for for chatting. A quick, quick chat about document sharing is simple google docks or something better. It’s a simple a school back and microsoft has a great year. We have this product microsoft’s one dr sharepoint microsoft suite has has a document sharing software. Ah, cloud based saving system skype is now skype for businesses and integrated with it. And so we’re using that in the office and then there’s there’s a ton of independent ones out there. And it’s, whether it’s, videoconferencing or it’s document sharing or it’s chatting there’s a ton out there. And i think it could be overwhelming. And for us it was evaluating what was best for our organisation and what our upper management was able. Teo use we talked about this before is modeling the behavior you want from your staff and so getting upper management on board was key. So one of our project management software we use a sauna, and we’ve tried three or four of them and our ceo like hassan, and so if she was going to use a sauna, we’re all going to use this on you and so i think that’s really important. It’s got to be easy to use and work for your organization. Calenda ring simple is good calendar ring, yet you have any other tools besides google calendar? We’re using outlooks calendar. Yeah, okay. Microsoft again. Yeah. All right. I think what other categories we need. Teo a video chat video is really important to scrape. A couple couldn’t do one on video with skype you khun duvette dio with google hangouts, but any time you can actually have an opportunity to see someone’s face and most of the calls we try to do as videos on dh, we find that that works really well. River again, the sense of community and if you can’t get together, that’s almost the next best thing and video has come a long way. The technology is more seamless than ever before, and so at least you’re seeing the person you might not get all of the nuance of the physical that that’s in the room. But you can see it in emotion or you can see a reaction to something which is super helpful or their cat walking of the cat we could get a lot of pets walking in front of the camera while people are on video that’s gonna be a lot of fun to talk about cats, but, you know, you have thirty virtual employees. You have fun doing it. I mean, oh, it’s awesome. Oh, it’s completely awesome is i love it. And well, you know, the best thing is that that people have really formed strong relationships with each other, they when you ask them what they like most about working here is they say each other, they say the people i’m here because i have connected relationships with other people on the team and to be able to create a culture where people feel connected to each other in a remote environment is is like, that’s the thing i’m most proud of, anything we’ve ever done, it doesn’t have to do their software product or what we’ve done to impact non-profits is the fact that we’ve had a culture of people that have had a wonderful time working and doing productive, impactful things. Jackson river always had a largest proportion of employees virtual from the beginning, when the beginnings and the culture to start about about it in the family way started as a two and a half person organization in the same way got to probably about eight to ten people in the office. And then our growth took us into different cities and communities. And that’s when we became virtual because of the growth, and so were probably half in the office in boston. And then half of our staff is outside and there’s one or two people in a city by themselves. We’re gonna leave it there. Excellent. Very much. Thank you. Alright. They are heather martin, ceo of interfaith family and alice hendricks, ceo of jackson river. This interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. And this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc ladies. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Way. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. Do you need help with your nine? Ninety or your brooks? Are your brooks or your books of those books? And brooks properly managed? Well, i could help you with the books. Eyes financial oversight in place so that your money isn’t going to fly out the door over the brook talkto wagner, partner, eat huge tomb. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust him. He’ll be honest about whether wagner is able to help you. You know where to go. Wagner, cps dot com now, tony steak too. I was at the lou costello statue in paterson, new jersey. Remember lou costello of abbott and costello and who’s on first. So what’s the connection, i hope, you know what’s on first is you’ve got to know that i mean who’s on first. Now who’s, what’s on second. I don’t know’s on third. I hope you know what i’m talking about. The connection is you gotta have some sense of history because this this comedy routine and the abbott and costello you they were from the forties, and if you want to be really successful, implant giving and you going to be actively talking to planned giving donors, you need to have some sense of history from the forties or fifties and vietnam. My video is that tony martignetti dot com now it’s time to map your data to your audience. Nces, welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntcdinosaur the twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference day two we’re kicking off our date to coverage with courtney clarke and david mask arena all of our eighteen ntcdinosaur views are sponsored by network for good, easy to use donor-centric software for non-profits courtney clarke. Hello. Hello to you. Welcome. Let me give you a proper introduction. David, you could say hello. Hello, david. Mastering it from the convent and hilton foundation introduced himself. All right, david happens to be the digital communications manager at the conrad hilton foundation. And courtney clarke is managing director of user experience forum one. Welcome. Good morning. Thanks for having us kicking off. Thanks for kicking off with us. Hey, happy to be here. You’re workshop topic is data and audience connecting to create impact. Okay, let’s, start with you. David. What do you think? Non-profits aren’t getting quite right in this subject. Like, why do we need this workshop? To be honest with you, tell you, please beyond yeah, don’t wear really blunt with the arika there’s a lot of data collection that’s happening in the nonprofit sector, but people don’t really do anything with it. There’s like a statistics where it’s like a very, very small percentage of non-profits you do something with data? And, you know, for example, there’s so many data points that in any day, that non-profit collectibe we have overload, i mean, really was data over there’s like there’s, like this just beautiful dash was like, what do we do with this? You have to stay close to michael, okay? All right, so we’re overloaded. So courtney, what we’re trying to do and have you had your workshop yet? Yes, we had it yesterday, so you’re on the downside. Yeah, this is easy for you. So what you were doing and then? And what we’re going to do now is trying make sense of data that well don’t feel overloaded. Well, it’s, it’s mostly around communicating data and really being clear about who your audiences are when you’re doing that cause we have identified five different data, sort of consumers or data people who will consume your data, but they all need different amounts of information, different formats. So for example, like a data consumer, this is like an interested person in the public. Maybe they’re a news consumer. They don’t have a lot of domain knowledge always, and they don’t have a lot of data skills, so what, you’re giving them is going to be very different than, say, a policy maker or a date. A producer. Okay, someone who’s more in depth in the details of it already knows, has has a yeah, you’ve identified let’s. Take it from there. We’ve identified five different audiences. Is that right? That’s? Different, different types of audiences. Okay, what are what are the five? We should start there. Yeah. That’s okay, what? Five? I’ll start. Okay. The next one. So data consumer two and then three e before there’s a ping pong tournament here. But we’re not. We’re not going out today. Okay, fair enough. So first is i mentioned the data consumer. This is i hate it when people say general public, because here you’re not really targeting everyone in the whole world. So let’s be a little bit more specific news consumers, people who are already interested a little bit. Okay, okay. Like i said, not a lot of dough mean knowledge. Not a lot of data skill. What you’re calling this group the data consumer. So this is the person you’re like scrolling through your news feed you’re looking at your phone. Ahn, do you see an instagram? Post or something on facebook, or even in the press in the news. And what do you see? You see an infographic that’s, simple right language that’s easy to understand. The point is very clear. That’s for the data consumer. They don’t have a lot of power, but there are a lot of those people. Okay? Hey, name another one. The next one is the data actor. So this is who everybody is targeting. This is decision makers, policymakers on dh. These folks may have some domi. Knowledge may have a lot of durney domain knowledge, but they don’t have time. So even if they do have dana skills, the ability to analyze and understand massive amounts of data didn’t have time to do that. They have analysts who are helping them do that sort of thing. But very important people. They have the staff, they have the cloud. They have our policymakers decision. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Okay, david, just give us our remaining three. So, of course, to consume someone has to share it. So you got a date? A promoter. So these were the bloggers he got you get the journalist. The advocacy for folks. This software developers, the entrepreneur. So these people are the ones who are, like projecting that data out there so that the consumer and the actor be able to see that. And then you have the analyst, which is very, very important a lot. You missed this one too. It’s, like now i have all these data is beautifully being shared out being read, who in a way is a domain expert, this staffer that’s going to be able to analyze and help advice, what to do with the data. And then finally, the researcher you got, you know, these air, the phd folks, these are you know, i was talking about like jin ho was their learning officer, that comet and hilton foundation she’s a researcher, and we recently did a site visit nairobi, kenya, for one of our grantees, shopko shining hope for community and they have rich, rich data they’re collecting around there, committing kibera and compare, by the way, is the largest of informal settlement in africa and think about, like, a size of, you know, central park in a compressor that seven thousand people and there’s so much data that they’re collecting about the community and helping them with their health care and, you know, with an education and such and community services in the way when she’s taught dana, she was just, like, drooling all over it. But she’s, like, i want to do something that and she’s such an academic she just wants to, like, basically designed something around it. So these air, like the data modelers is with the academics of phd folks that will help let’s take the data to a new level. Alright, much so our audience is small and midsize. Yeah, non-profit twelve thousand. So we’re talking a lot of people there in small, small and midsize shop. Yeah, they need to identify which of these audiences they’re talking to some some may never be talking to to the researcher, right? Or the or the data actor. They might not be doing lobbying, so they may not be. So you have to identify which audiences you’re talking to, right? You guys hear me? Okay. And your headsets? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. I don’t hear myself too well, but as long as you hear me, ok, you have to identify who you’re talking to you and then okay, so so i guess we’re going to get through now there are different data needs different ways of conversing about data with data to each of these different audience that’s right? You don’t have that, right? Yes, we’re mapping needs and method to the five different audiences and the knowledge that they have tio and the time, right? So i mentioned the policymaker. They may have some expertise. They don’t have time right on time, don’t time like the researcher. Whereas the researchers, like, get out of my way. Just give me the spreadsheet, all query my own database, okay? And then also in the spirit of being totally honest, so they have to be honest with yourself who you’re going to deliver the data to, like. If it’s your board, it’s your board and it’s. Okay, you know, and some people are like, oh, this is only for one very specific orders and that’s. Good, you know, because they’re being very, very honest with yourself. Okay, very good. So let’s, start with the ones that are most likely for a small and midsize not to be talking. So certainly data consumer. Yeah. That’s your nose. Your nose could be your donors. I know you’re not calling your donor’s, maybe even just board members. Okay? Data actor. Maybe it could be any decision maker that could be your board as well. It could be. It could be your boss. It could be somebody who is influencing budgets influencing programming. This is the person who has the power to make a change. So it’s therein you figure out which ones were going teo so they’re they’re in data promoter. That could be a journalist. Yes. Right. So that’s potential. The analyst remind me. What’s what’s the likelihood of a small mid size shot talking to the analyst sometimes yeah, for smaller medium non-profit portable. Forget it. Yeah, yeah. Bonem altum but scale that xero scales up now we’re not going right. We’re not going treatable, but let’s, just talk about it, okay? I think what i think what’s different, though, for smaller midsize non-profits is that the people listening may be the ones doing the analysis themselves. They may not have a supper analyst. Okay. Yeah, and many came from currently hilton foundations. They get smaller foundation. And a lot of us were multiple hats. So someone might be liberta both, but yet, yet they still move every important. Okay? They’re all in. Okay? Yeah. All right. So what do we do for the data consumer? How do we have a retailer to that audience? Yeah. They’re a couple of key things. That’s. What we need. Yeah. So one is use plain language when you’re communicating to them, they may not know who you are, what you do, why it matters. Plain language is really key. Sometimes people get a little too marketing me. Sometimes they get a little too research. E you need to be able to say what you want to say in a really simple visual with some simple language like you’re talking to your friends. Yeah, we were at a dinner party. You’ve got ten seconds to explain what this is and what matter-ness schooling for. Graphic. That will do it for you or something like that, right? Or even just like a data point point. Okay, we got to take a break. Tell us, for pete’s sake, think of the companies you can refer and start asking them that’s the first step. Well, actually, the first step is watching the video. Then you start referring the companies and talking. To them, you’ve heard the testimonials from the charity’s. You’ve heard the testimony from the companies. It’s. Time to get that long stream of passive revenue for yourself. Start with the video. That is the first step video. Is that tony dot, m a slash tony tello’s. Now back to courtney clarke and david mask arena from eighteen. Ntc what’s. The summary. Yeah, and a couple of that with something you mentioned visually could be motion. Could be a visual visualization of data. It could be a story. It could be a video that couples with the data because just it’s. Just a lot more impact for when you, when you when you pair it, but okay, let’s, start to make sense. Your data consumer is gonna be a lot more interesting story then your analyst or your research eggs? Absolutely. And during our session yesterday, there are people in the audience who talked. We talked a lot about how we paired data with stories because the narrative makes it so much more riel, it elevates the people that are actually being affected by this data. So there were some great stories about that. Okay, okay. Back-up let’s, go to the well, anything else about the consumer? I mean, this is this is this is probably our largest constituency. Yeah, so i think the other thing is to be clear about what action you want them to take because your data should support that action don’t just and and actually that came up from an audience member yesterday who said people weren’t being moved by the data and so that’s why they started pairing it with stories and once somebody gets hooked and they feel those heartstrings being cold or they feel that passion rise that’s when you gotta capitalize and be really clear what the action is, whether it’s donating, volunteering on asking for more information yeah, signing up for the male daughter, give us your new gives your email yeah, and think about the safety step back a little bit this like you have to identify goal, like whether you’re trying to accomplish with this data set and it would help you help you with to decide like what to share in how to share that welfare that’s always important place to start gold. What was the purpose of this, exactly what we’re trying to move people and then we try to move people to do and then be clear about exactly called. Okay? That’s, right? And the goal is the hardest part. Frankly, knowing the goal is the hardest part. It’s on so simple, but it’s like that ask why five times you got to get to the real root of why you’re doing this. All right? We’re talking about our actor actor. Okay, refresh my recollection, who’s, this decision makers, policymakers, people who are going to make the change that you want, sir. Yeah. Okay. Okay. How do we talk to these people that data. So the format is briefings sometimes it’s in the form of a press release. They need, like, think about a policy maker who has a staff and maybe they have to vote on a bill or make a decision. The staff member is the one who’s calling non-profits calling agencies and saying what’s happening in my district around this topic. So being able to slice your data by topic and location is really valuable to these folks and getting this summary out and again the action. What? Why does this matter and their actions going to be different than the consumer? Usually you’re looking for a decision, a vote, something exactly what you want to say more about the actual, i think something that’s adjustable something that if you could package it for them, like staying here, the key takeaways from this a swell, you know, think of this, like, you know, you know, working the communications team. And, you know, we provide press kits for people. And if you could provided that, you know, so so they could easily digest and help, um, guide them through the decision making process, i think will be the key. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And i guess also keeping in mind you you may not be talking to the principal. Yeah, right, right. It could be a staff staff, something. Usually it is so it’s. Gotta be it’s. Gotta be so your your urine for always going through someone to the decision maker way don’t love that. Right? Twice removed, twice removed from your there once removed from your data. Yeah, it happens. I mean, that’s what? Any communication, though. Anytime you’re putting something out, somebody could take it. Andi at their own commentary around it. That’s what? The data promoter that’s a that’s a benefit in a risk, right? Because they could date a promoter could be multiplying. Your audience is your audience, but they could be putting their own message. They could be manipulating the data in a way that may not be true to it. But, you know, were you everybody has had, you know, that journalist didn’t get the quote quite right? Yeah, you are taking over simplification exactly. If the press often has to do to make something interesting to readers, you know, put in a headline. Yeah, yeah, and the promoter should also think about, like, segmenting looking if they could do, like, a more targeted in a way, like, if they know specifically that they’re going to try to communicate. Teo, i think they’ll be the key as well. And you get to know your trusted data promoters, right? You know, the journalists or the bloggers are the advocates who you trust, who you align with the messaging around. So identifying those folks or maybe you don’t know them and you do a little research and you find out who you are, where, wes, you need to know within your sector who the influencers are. Absolutely yeah, i get a little bit of research. Goes a long way. Yeah. Back-up how do you feel about the standard press release? Since we’re talking about the audience of promoters, we’ll be sending it to either of you have, ah, opinion on press releases. Are they outdated there? Some school of thought that press release is dead. But it’s it’s still being used is using it. You’re still using journalists say they ignore them. Yeah, andi, and honestly goes back to relationship building, you know, like in communications, that our primary key is build relationships with with journalists. So when our press release passes through their deaths, they’d be able to, like sick. Oh, let me take a look at this and then dig deeper into the story for us. Just a little more let’s. Talk about building a relationship with a journalist before you want them. Tio, take some action for you to write about you in to quote you on that day’s breaking news. Yeah. How do we build that relationship when we don’t have a need? But, you know, we want to be in front of the person. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like i just it’s a good old fashioned relation building, you know, you have called them, reach out them email and called, you know, like you have no agenda, but i mean, this marketplace exactly you often cover way. Have coffee, exactly. What a concept. I mean, like, i’m also part of communications network conference, just another communications based non-profit unconference and a lot of journalists attend that and it’s a great opportunity, this plate, this form and ten is a another great form to meet people like i would add to that you need to be you need to understand that audience and you need to be curious about they have their own set of requirements that they’re trying to meet. They’ve got an editorial calendar there. Boss has told them what topics to focus on. They’re looking for. They need they need to youto help them connect the dots. So maybe don’t start with the ask, understand what they’ve been working on for the last month. What stories? What topics? And then being able to which, which, by the way, does not mean ask them what have you been writing me out? It means doing your research before you do the outreach, so that you know, so that, you know, you’ve shown that, you know, you show that you’ve taken the time to know what their beat is exactly not just asking you what do you write about lately? Well, it’s in the paper buy-in there dubai it’s on it’s, on the site, in the research, and then and then what are you working on next or what’s? The story you’ve been dying to write that you haven’t had the chance to there’s always a good answer for that and there’s a great conversation starter, especially like imagine putting yourself in their shoes, you know, like someone just roundly wants to have coffee with you, but you have no idea who they are didn’t even do any sort of research like and, you know, you have very, very busy schedule, and you have multiple crowdster headlines like we just need to remember they’re people tio don’t waste their time any more than you would waste. Teo spend the time with a potential donor. Exactly ask them what you’re worth. You’re not gonna ask them things that you want to know already write, write, write what is it about our work that he loves? Well. I’ve been giving to you for fifteen years, i think it’s, probably in my e-giving history, you know, don’t waste people’s time exactly, but but it is important to build relationships with exactly these influences. Okay, i would add to that there channels are largely on social media. If you talk to any journalists, they spend all their time on twitter. So if your twitter gene is not great it’s time it’s time. Learn what hashtags there using. Follow those channels, see who they’re following. See what they’re talking about. A great way to do research on also how to start to engage early on, even if it’s just observing. Okay. Okay. Very good. Okay, so i want you. I want to spend more time on that. I want to check my mike. Want to make sure that everything is good here. Okay, a little insecure about the way i sound. I don’t know. I sound you don’t sound good to me, it’s. Not okay to you, though, right? It’s? A little soft. Like i can hear myself. Really? I could hear myself, teo. You don’t hear me. According to richard it’s. Not as clear. Yeah, in-kind okay. And give. Myself a lot more volume. All right, now, my too loud. Ok, it’s. Good. Allright. Thank you. Time for our last break. Hoexter give quote, i compared a bunch of companies in my search for it hoexter donate company and text to give is the best hands down. They have b been beyond helpful. I can’t imagine anyone doing this better exclamation mark end quote that’s lauren bouchard from global commission partners in clermont, florida. Satisfied? She is with text to give you will be, too for info text npr to four, four, four, nine nine, nine. We’ve got several more minutes, and here they are for map your data to your audiences. Let’s, continue the analysts. Right. Data analyst. Refresh our recollection. David who is this? So this is the data expert this’s. The staffer that’s or consultant? That would help be a read data. Okay, and analyze it for you, like they be in a foundation. Now. I like the way i sound better. Okay? Like they’d be a foundation program, officer. It could be. Is that an example or no, i’m not necessarily. I mean, it could be a learning officer for the foundation meeting the one. Who’s like analyzing all the learning and data sets. Ok, he could be a data manager, you know, within an organization. Where would you? Where would you put a program, officer out of foundation? Someone who’s evaluating your grant proposal. Where? Where would they fit in these audience? Most like, i mean, it’s a little bit of both between the consumer and the actor, to be honest with you, because they’re both a decision maker. So they’re going to read the data and they’re also going to get this just like, okay, this is how my program is going and here’s how i’m going to act upon it. And here’s how i’m gonna adjust my strategy with it. Okay? Yeah. All right. So, let’s, go back to the analyst. How do we, uh, david? You keep going. What do we do with this? How do we talk to the analyst with our data? Go. No. Gosh, just give it all to them. Honestly, rod, they love him. They loved it. They love spreadsheets there. Said if they see a string of numbers, imagine like matrix type of thing. They’re like oh, my gosh, this is habit. Okay, okay. Yeah. It’s that simple? Well, they have, i would add that they usually have the domain a knowledge. Do you think of a policy maker? They haven’t education expert on staff or they may have an expert in international relations it’s that person who knows the domain quite well and feels comfortable digging through the data and furthermore to add to that, too is like if he providing which your goals and what your strategy is for and what they’re trying to provide the otherwise they’d be able to help you got guide you through the breeding process say more about that? Yeah, what shit a little bit, so think of him like, you know, like, if i’m like, if i am se the heather communications in the foundation and i’m like, i’m gonna talk to a data analyst we’re trying to accomplish x can you help me read through this day that what types of data sets can leave first collect and what’s up days says comey can provide so they’ll be able to accomplish that goal, then they were able to narrow down because otherwise they could they could. You stand in any sort of ways, but if you provide some sort of direction or gold. They’re able to, like filter things a little bit better for you. Okay, yeah, very good. Really good. And our last left audiences the researcher buy-in courtney yeah, the researchers are get out of my way and give me this red sheet they the like they may scan through your infographic, your visualization, your query tool. But really, they’re going to build their own query tool. They’re goingto grab that they’re the ones who are in sequel making pivot table like they’re doing all of it. Okay, we have jargon jail on twenty sequel i think people will know, but i’m going to pivot table. Alright, excel itself. Okay, sorry, i’m taking a data analytics class so i’m learning this stuff, so i’m excited to be able to talk about it just dropping, dropping top, but, yeah, i imagine you’ve got an excel table that is so large that you can’t open it x l can’t open it. That is what these researchers are are working in and they’re very comfortable working in and they’re the ones who may even be collecting data as well as analyze sing it for themselves, so think of it like a like a layer deeper than unless they got analysts who may rely also some visualizations. And of course, like a deep amount of pressure. But these guys are like they’re just like neck or forehead, deep of like numbers and data, and they want to do everything themselves. Yeah, yeah. So one one important thing here we have worked on a number of data projects and for non-profits or foundations any group who wants to attract many of these audiences, the keeping with researchers is you have, like, the get data page or sometimes we’ll put it in the footer and it’s, like, just download the excel spreadsheet because i keep saying it, but you got to get out of their way. Just give them what they want, okay? Okay. We have, like, another minute and a half or so do you have tools? And, uh, in your description, you mentioned choosing the right data tools. Any tools we can introduce briefly that you like, i mean, to be honest and this is like, tio, you get off being out of keeping it will be really hash tag riel here, please place if you’re old website have google and alex installed. I mean, you’d be surprised how many webs are out there and smashing non-profits believe that twenty nine, twenty nine percent of them are using do or not. Okay, okay did not have google and licks and police bare minimum do that and they said, like have i think the fun? Nothing is like have goals, you know, before it was like before you venture into the day the world? Yeah, there is there’s a great study that every action did called the state of non-profit data. And you can it’s from twenty sixteen. But it’s a great read a page i recommended. Okay, we’re gonna leave it with we’ll leave it there without recommendation. All right, all right. They’re courtney clarke, managing director of user experience at forum one. And david mask arena digital communications manager at the conrad hilton foundation. Courtney and david. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Pleasure. This interview along with all of our eighteen ntcdinosaur views sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you for being with non-profit radios coverage of eighteen ntc next week the buy-in bitches getting buy-in from your leadership. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing toe online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p well, you see, piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Bradunas cps dot com by tello’s, credit card payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Durney dahna slash tony, tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine a. Creative producers. Claire meyerhoff, sam leave lorts is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music is by scott stein. You need me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Dahna good. You’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sumpter, potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio, leo dot n y c geever. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? 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Nonprofit Radio for October 19, 2018: Your Tech RFPs & Donor Advised Funds

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Drew McManus & Ceci Dadisman: Your Tech RFPs
Two tech providers from #18NTC reveal what they wish you knew about crafting your proposal solicitations. Plus a few secrets their colleagues wish they wouldn’t reveal. They’re Drew McManus, principal of Venture Industries Online and Ceci Dadisman from Form.

 

 

Gene Takagi: Donor Advised Funds
Gene TakagiGene Takagi returns to discuss the pros and cons of this increasingly popular donation method that gets lots of press. It’s gifts for nonprofits, why all the fuss? We’ll find out. Gene is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law firm.

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with sheer adoni sis, if i saw that you missed today’s, show your tech r f p s to tech providers from eighteen ntc reveal what they wish you knew about crafting your proposal solicitations plus a few secrets their colleagues wish they wouldn’t reveal. They’re drew mcmanus principle of venture industries online and sissy dad baizman from form and donor advised funds jean takagi returns to discuss the pros and cons of this increasingly popular donation method that gets lots of press it’s gets for non-profits where all the fuss we’ll find out. Gina’s, our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law firm tony take two a driving rant responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing capital p wender cps guarding you beyond the numbers gregor cps dot com bye tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four four, nine, nine, nine here are drew mcmanus and cc data zeman from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntcdinosaur twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference we are in the convention center in new orleans, nola, louisiana, and we’re kicking off our coverage with this interview. This interview, like all, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profit i’m very pleased to welcome for our kickoff interview. Drew mcmanus and cc dahna sametz drew is principal of venture industries online and cc is digital marketing manager four for money and your seminar topic is everything tech providers wish you knew about reading an r f p plus the stuff you want they want, plus the stuff they want to keep secret. All right, let’s hope that the conversation is shorter than the title. Welcome well thinking. Well, you’re very welcome, let’s start off cc i love you. I don’t know, i don’t know if viewers of the video are not gonna be able to see your pendant, so show that off. No, all that off. Put that on the mission in camp. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Very striking. Thank you. Why do we need this topic ? What’s what ? What’s not going right with peace ? Well, i think it a very basic level as non-profits we all need to do our peas at one point or another. Right ? And sometimes they can be a source of a little bit of trepidation for, to write and to sort of put out there to vendors. And we felt that this was a very timely topic to talk about to help ease people’s minds a little bit about that. And really give them some deeper information into the r f p process. Yeah, okay. Drew there’s, there’s trepidation people people are fearing this this process, right as a web developer, we get extremes there’s either trepidation where people don’t know how to approach it because they don’t feel comfortable with how to evaluate proposals. They don’t know what to ask for. They just don’t know how to kick the process off or on the other side of that. They have this extensive laundry list of things they think they want without really knowing even what they can can’t ask for or what i knew. Platforms and options are available. The r f p process really should be more involved with learning what you have and what can be. Okay, so that’s, what we’re gonna be talking about what you have and what can be so both of you are on the receiving end of a piece. Is that right ? From from non-profits currently, although i’ve spent most of my career working full time at non-profit organizations and as a consultant working on behalf of the non-profit for these kind of things. So that’s sort of how we’re approaching this drew is definitely on the vendor side, but my experiences is farm or on the non-profit side. Okay. Okay. So, let’s, stay with u c c your description promised tio pull back the curtain. What ? Pull back the curtain of how tech providers are crafting their proposals. Okay, with you right now, he’s. The current can you ? Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, i could talk a little about what’s behind this curtain. Yeah, i can talk about it a little bit from the from the non-profit side in creating the r f p you know, our peace can be a really big project, right ? They could be something has looked at that is that is very involved because you want to make sure that what you’re putting out there is is true to the project that you’re looking toa have completed, and you want to make sure all the right information is in there so that you get the right vendors because ultimately you want a good vendor experience. You had a good working experience and we want attracting the right exactly you want you want the right vendors toe look at that project and won a bid on it, and ultimately you want to find the best vendor for your particular organization on dso in this session, you know, we’ll talk a lot about, you know, really what needs to go in that r f p from the non-profit standpoint, it only in the session we’re going to sharing here, too, right here yet. Zoho back on non-profit radio listeners, i don’t know we’re going to be doing out here too, right ? Right now we are ok, we are right. So one of the big things that we’ll talk about from the non-profit standpoint is at a very basic level just being honest about what you need from this project to put into the r f p, you know, bring all of your assets together, bring your team together before you even start writing the r f p to, you know, figure out what you really want let’s say it is, you know, a website project. You know what ? You really want this website to do what you want, tohave it, what you want to have contained in it. You know what your delivery bals are, what type of conversions you’re looking at so that you can start the process out where everything is sort of laid out on the table before you’re even starting to write the r f p and then as you go through the r f p process, making sure that all of those things are in there so that you know it’s full disclosure for the vendors, okay, what i what should we have in place before we start typing words into r r r f what does stick with you ? Ok, the big things to have in place are number one, the team that is going to be working on this project and have a point person assigned. For the project and that’s a really big thing, making sure that there is somebody responsible for communicating with the vendors about the project, who, you know is going to make the time and the energy commitment to do that, and also gathering together all of the information that needs to go in the website, whether that’s text or photos, multimedia files, whatever that might be bringing all of getting all of that together because ultimately your vendor will need that you’ll have to give it to them eventually, so might as well do it right off the bat, and then you need to gather together all of your other sort of software providers. You know, any other piece of tech that might touch that website ? So if you have, you know, a fund-raising cr m ifyou’re in arts and culture organization, and you’re selling tickets to shows, you know that that software is well, you know, your email marketing software, whatever those things are that need to interact with that website in some way getting all of those things together. Okay ? It’s, time for a break pursuant they’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and good practices to your non-profit it’s free as all the pursuant resource is our it’s on the listener landing page. You know where to find that it’s tony dot m a slash pursuing the capital p for please now back to your tech or f p’s drew let’s, go to you. Who should be the point person ? Who’s the right person were now our listeners small and midsize non-profits so i’m gonna assume there is no director. Ok, correct. We should be in charge of this process. Dede was sisi was describing. I knew that was gonna happen that way. Have a dd coming later. I’ll answer to it. It’s not here. Now, it’s actually, cee cee cee is with us who should be in charge for most organizations is going to be the marketing director or the vp of marketing that’s typically the person who ends up becoming the point person because they’re going to be the gatekeeper for most of the content architecture that sisi was talking about. And so that’s usually a decent person to be able to be the point to contact oh, and process the art piece that are going to come in, you know, i’m one year earlier questions you had toss to see see about, you know, the things that we’re looking, i didn’t metoo i’m not gonna look at me, i’m gonna beat it up. Now i gotta beat it up now, so i focus on myself, okay ? On my my mistakes. I know it’s just but being able to actually educate non-profits into the things that they need to realize before they even start soliciting our peace and won the big ones is that that tech provider world, especially web development, is in a massive state of flux. Right now, there are really two large competing schools of how to go about being a service provider, which there’s the traditional old school model of you. Give us the specs, we build this for you, and then it’s yours. Hand it over, enjoy it. Yeah, and then there’s mohr of the annual license fee model. There are one ofthese for things like design and development programming, that kind of stuff. But then there’s an ongoing relationship that provides training support. I like to call it attrition insurance because you’re going in insurance, attrition, insurance, you’re going to have people who are going to turn over, and you need whoever comes in to be able to talk to someone who has some kind of institutional knowledge about that online presence, at least and that’s really not even just a non-profit but in the tech sector, especially that’s been around for years now, it’s almost expected oh, and it’s still a new concept to non-profits and so even understanding when they start soliciting are of peace, they could get some very radically different ideas coming in, and if they’re not prepared for it, you might out of hand, just toss something else that could actually be your better solution. Do latto on doing a lot of nodding ? Yeah, yeah, i mean exactly what drew just said about non-profits are used to this in terms of websites, the subscription model type of thought where, you know, you might pay a maintenance fee, monthly or yearly two, your web developer but really, i think for this particular industry, that is the way to go because there is so much turnover in terms of staff and knowing that you have someone there at all times to, you know, sort of help out, you know, god forbid something breaks or, you know, maybe you just have a question that there is somebody there at all times that can really take care of that. This industry, maybe more than others, should be using that sort of dahna i’m surprised to hear that non-profits air not acquainted with this attrition problem, i mean, they have it in having a crime, i mean, certainly in fund-raising where i mostly you’re saying that they’re not factoring that into this process, exactly, exactly there not really thinking about how that relates to their web presence and also having, you know, a monthly maintenance contract or yearly can be very helpful, even just when you need a little thing fixed or changed usually non-profits will go out and you don’t try to find, you know, a one off kind of developer project or, you know, hyre a freelancer to do something and and once you have, you know, all of these different people that are going in there and touching your website at any one time, ultimately that’s sort of going to dilute the integrity of the website so it’s best to just be able to keep with one person who really knows it in it. Out now, i highlighted. Beautiful necklace pendant. I want to highlight drew’s vest, very dapper vest and pocket square. Now, i am not to be outdone. Pocket squares, but yeah, exactly. Undo that. Drew is the king of the waistcoat. He has a warrior he’s, a waistcoat warrior hashtag waistcoat warrior he’s got a waistcoat for every occasion, and he looks damn good in them. Thank you very much for your marriage. You know each other. You know, it’s outside, outside the professional realm way. Do we’ve been friends for a very long time. And actually, one of the first ways that we met was doing a session. You contacted me to a website session. But when c z was a marketing director at the palm beach opera, they became client of mine, and they’re still clients. Oh, and we worked together on a number of sessions and mostly in performing arts based conferences. But yeah, way. Have a good report. Okay, show’s. Awesome. I love that this is a great energy. Great five kickoff kick off our coverage of auntie. Easy. Okay, drew let’s, stay with you. Something else that sisi mentioned next in the sequence. Gathering the right information that belongs as a part of this or ft flush out out more that’s the perfect question to ask yeah, number question number eight is it took me a while, we’ll slow out of the gate. Oh, it’s, just a number eight it’s one the best ones, because that’s also one of most difficult, because when organizations look at their content, i mean, they look at the stuff that they’re familiar with and what they know. So the actual copy, the media co-branding elements and that’s something that they tend to do fine with but where we encounter groups, having the most trouble is when they have to actually get all that information from point a to point b, meaning that let’s say they have a system built on julia or even wordpress, which is what we use in its open source. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s easy to extract the data depending on how that web site was originally built previously. And if in order to say what kind of data we’re talking about trying to get out, it could be anything from more complex information like customer data or event information there an event driven organization if they sell tickets. There’s all kinds of event. Meta, which are little bits of data, like the starting time, the location to find these terms. Because we have jargon. Jail on non-profit mirriam would hate to see you behind bars, but you live served time. You have. Not on this show. I don’t allow it. So you described it. You defined it quickly. Okay, so, yeah, little bits of data that right ? And so that they don’t know that that getting that from point a to point b isn’t a simple as doing, like a simple export. There’s no standardized format for something like a vent data. Even though google and apple have their own standards, it only covers a few bits of metal, so being able to move that might actually require a substantial amount of time and effort that they had no idea it was needed. But worse didn’t budget for, and that could sometimes be the most expensive element dahna project outside of something like developing an ap i connection to something like sales force or cr m or any kind of outside donor-centric connection between your data and some other outside latto yep, it’s the language that allows to different platforms to be able to talk to each other in the same language as opposed to having, you know, something in german trying to talk to someone in russian. Okay, now, how does it now ? I made you tigress thought your fault. How ? Does this all relate back to what belongs in our f and that’s ? Just it ? Those are the things that providers in my position usually don’t tell clients in advance because they well, do they even know i mean at the art of the stage ? Well, that’s just it most non-profits don’t they didn’t ask for that. But the provider doing replying to the r f p at that stage probably doesn’t even know that level of detail, do they ? They should, and they should be asking, and not every provider does that this goes into the heart of this stuff they don’t want you to know about the process is going to be iterated we’re not not just foisting an art of pee on a bunch of vendors, and then they return it within within this by the specified deadline. But there’s a there’s a back and forth there’s a community there. This conversation there should be questioning that’s a beautiful way to put it and that’s one of things that were going to be talking about is the r f in the traditional sense that we’re talking about way are is that the old school ? Throw out the laundry list of things that you want and get it back is not probably going to be in your best interest. We’re going to be talking about some alternative methods, which will be including project evaluations. We are talking about project evaluation, and a project evaluation is different than our pee. In that you will usually pay someone a small fee, a developer, aura potential provider to look at all of this stuff for you, and then be able to give you a legitimate fair estimate of what it cost will be. Okay, so that that’s sort of. Leading into your r f or is it in place of it could go in both one of the options is a migration where i’m sorry, ah, hybrid model where that can then let them build a detailed, accurate r f or they can use that as just the basis of being able to move forward after they’ve looked at a couple of groups to narrow down to a shortlist based on reputation and previous work. Ok, and this can only be good, really, for the non-profits because in this process, you get to know the developers who are responding to this r f p and, you know, that can help you choose what the right relationship might be, you know, rather than just saying, oh, well, these people look great, and there are f p submission looks great, but you don’t really know them. Yeah, all right, so we’re holding hands before we sleep together. Exactly. Get way. Get going. We’re going on a few dates before we sleep together. Okay, look on dating apps. A great wayto use that analogy. That’s. One of the things we have in the session that we’re talking about here now. Thank you. Is that if you wanted to go online and find someone to date and you just have a laundry list that’s called tinder ? If you actually want to find someone that you want to have a relationship with that’s that’s an entirely different story and shoot it might be in harmony, i would like to know the harmony, harmony, scientific that’s, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Profiles are more detailed, nothing no yeah, that i know from experience. I’ve heard. I’m happily married on dh, not on any any dating site. In fact, i’m happily married has nothing to do with other dating sites. That’s. True, i don’t know. I don’t see a ring, you know, you’re right, i don’t know. My wife has what she’s here, but we don’t wear rings right on. But, yes, i see your true oh, she’s on she’s, yes, okay, showing you just take that truth, okay ? So what was that ? Aggression ? Okay, all right, so so we’re dating, all right ? So how do we find the people who the potential vendors who could be valuable to us either for this project evaluation or for our f p how do we know where to send this thing ? We’re jumping around a bit, but listeners are accustomed to that that’s a good question, how do how do we know that’s actually really good question, and i know that, and i know that drew will have some thoughts, too, but if your friend on for non-profit that doesn’t really have a lot of experience in doing this kind of thing. I think the first thing to do is to reach out to colleagues for other organisms from other organizations who have recently been through a website, redesign or development project, or maybe you don’t even know them, but maybe it’s a non-profit or another organization that has a website that you like, reach out to them and see who did it see with their experience with and then also utilizing any sort of membership organizations or associations that you might be involved in convene helpful like a f p or a or p r s a and ten more any of those only, like number three any of those. And only after i prompted you. All right, let me sample warning would have been on my list. Trust me. Hyre where ? Seven it’s not there’s, no value. Nobody’s listening that yes, people listen. So all right, so i think that would be the first laurel referral to someone who did something you like or from among your or from among your professional network, including professional associations. Yeah. Putting. And i think putting it out there that you are looking for someone is really good as well. Even just on your social media on your linked in that hay, whether it’s personal or professional or both. Hey, we are looking to redo our website. Does anybody have any ? You know, recommendations, people you love people you worked with that you don’t love you no stairway from this kind of thing. Okay ? Do you have more ? That that’s a great way to go about it. I would say when you go the social media route or a public rout beep prepared for the onslaught. Yes, because there will be plenty of people who are in business development, we’re going to look for those sort of things reach out to you. The only thing i’ve really add to that is looking at other sites that you like as a starting point. You look at that that face is it pretty ? Do i like it ? Do i enjoy how it worked as faras the interaction and the user interface ? And if there’s, ah, website credit at the bottom, which not all sites do, but if there is, then start to reach out to those organizations. But most importantly, when you go to their websites, you want to try to find someone that has as much information about process as in the results because it’s the process that what we’ve been talking about here that really develops that relationship, that build a successful lives, you’re because you’re successful outcome ? Yeah, absolutely. Ok. Yes. You don’t want to just focus well said you want to focus on how great the site looks. It works. But was was it held to get here ? May not be worth it. It may not have been worth it. Is it a mistake to send out a dozen or of peas. I mean, is there an optimal like there ? Max, i don’t need. I don’t want to hear from fifteen vendors. I can’t r or just can’t process that much. Cc what’s. Your advice around how many descent ? I think that i don’t think that it’s a bad thing to get a lot back, i think in this kind of situation, because there aren’t there aren’t a ton, ton ton of developers that work with non-profits to start out with, you know, with some other types of businesses where you might get an onslaught of r f piece from web developers non-profits air a little bit lucky in that, you know, it’s going to be a relatively smaller number just to start out with, but i do think that it’s better to sort of see what your options are and that’s an important part of this process because what i find is a lot of non-profits when they’re doing a website project, they may be stuck, quote unquote stuck with a certain solution because they didn’t know what their other options were, and they were they were working with a developer aura developer was recommended to them that is saying, you know, this is the way that you need to do x, y and z and not that that’s a bad way, inherently, but maybe not the best way for that particular organization, but they just went with it because they didn’t know what there are other options were. So i’m more of the mind that the more sort of information that you have and it is it is a pretty good thing. Okay, so you don’t want to put our backs on it. Andi it’s likely to be a small number anywhere you’re saying, because right, and you’re going to sort of tear those things down. So once you get the first group of them, then you’re immediately going to be able to see, okay, yeah, these were not interested in so here’s, my smaller core group that we’re really going to look at, you know, and then from there, okay. We still have a few minutes left together, drew let’s talk about something that’s related to this development versus legacy costs. How does that relate to this sort of process and what listeners need to know about development versus legacy cost everything they don’t know, which is everything, and it is the biggest issue moving forward for non-profits is if you’re a non-profit like a performing arts organization, they already have a really good idea of what legacy cost is with labour expenses because their labor intensive organizations there’s no way to avoid that. Websites and technology platforms in general are starting to become mohr like that there’s, a minimum legacy threshold, cost wise from an expensive perspective that is increasingly going up because of how much organizations are relying on those platforms, but they don’t traditionally look att them from that perspective because of that one off here’s your website. Now i’m gone. We’re talking about the ongoing costs of maintaining the site exactly, but it’s not just maintaining the site, is maintaining that the ap i connective ity all the software in the scripts that make things do what they do change at haste, that is far more. Rapid than it used to be that’s a great example. Sites are goingto break connections, yes, and what other things are legacy costs that the last thing, the biggest one the next one is going to be with regard to how responsive design functions and responsive design is when you see a website on a desktop, as opposed to on a smartphone and everything shifts around so it looks better on a smartphone that works better. The underlying technology that makes all that work is also in a hyper state of developed and that’s, constantly changing. So it’s and it’s constantly changing to keep up with changes and things like iphones, they come out with new specs and new dimensions, and thing’s called media query thresholds change. So all the rules that go into how stuff shifts around has to change. And if your website or your online platform is a couple of years old, it may already be behind the times and not working well on those devices, even though you thought it originally was designed to do that. Now, listener’s, you’re gonna want to know that i did hear drew say the media query threshold we don’t have enough time to flush that out. So i’m gonna get you gonna get passed, it’s one of fury’s, everything but i’m letting this one go, but i did notice do not do not think that i didn’t catch it, okay ? And then sisi, why don’t you explain the different mean, what ? Drew was just describing those legacy costs and development costs, which i think is pretty commonly understood, but that’s just right, right ? So your development costs that’s really going to be, you know, the money that you’re putting out to make the site right in that first project to actually create what you’re trying to dio and it’s, i love that we’re talking about this because from an organizational perspective, it’s really important to keep a line item in there somewhere and some money in it for those legacy costs, you know, because a lot of times we’re just looking at it and say, okay, well, you know, it’s going to cost x amount of dollars to build the site and then that’s it or, you know, we’re given, you know, we get a grant for it or were given money from a donor to build the site or something like that and it’s looked at as just sort of a one off. You’ve got to think about keeping money in a line item for these ongoing kinds of things and also the developer that you’re working with. Khun give you a good sense of how much money that might end up being, depending on the functionality of your sight, because that’s really going to vary from site to site and from organization to organization. Okay, i should got they should another should from drew. All right, we gotta leave it there. This is twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. I’ve been talking to drew mcmanus principle of venture industries online and cc dat baizman digital marketing manager at form. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc and this interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thanks so much for being with us. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. Do you need help with accounting or your nine ninety thinking about a change of accountants ? Time to get a fresh opinion. Check out witness. Cps dot com start there. Then talk, you know. The partner to talk to you, eat each tomb. He’s been on the show, he’s a good guy. I trust him. He’ll be honest about whether they can help you. Regular cpas. Dot com. Now time for tony’s, take two. I do a lot of ah long distance driving about twelve hundred miles every month, or or every six weeks on dh. I’ve got a couple things. Ah, couple things on my mind about that, that i’ve, that i’ve seen that ah, bother me. So the video talks about three of them. I was for here. I feel like the one i wanna talk about is getting gas. The gas lanes in ah, in a gas station are for getting gas and for cleaning your windshields on when you’re cleaning your windshield, that doesn’t mean wash your car with the squeegee that means clean the winter came the glass certainly get your glass nice and clean. Fill up the gas. Take your time doing all those things don’t trip don’t spill any gas, you know, dribbles over anything, nothing like that, but when you’re done, get out of the gas lane and park that car. Don’t be the person sitting still in the gas lane while you’re going to get iced tea. There’s a couple more rants along with that one on the video at tony martignetti dot com now time for gene gene the law machine you know who i’m talking about ? Of course. Well, who else would it be ? Jean takagi, the managing partner of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, he edits the wildly popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s, the american bar association’s. Twenty sixteen outstanding. Non-profit lawyer he’s jean takagi he’s at g tak. Welcome back, jean. Thanks, tony. How are you ? I’m doing very well. How are you this afternoon ? I’m doing very well, feelingood out there. Good. Good. I’m glad. Um, i’m overdue for a visit. I need to i need to come see you on the west coast. The ads actually the perfect time that we’ve got some nice weather. It’s a little cooler earlier this summer. But we’re headed out towards cem. Cem a nice weather at the end of september and october. September, october. There are good months. You’re right. I know, i know. I’ve heard that from others. I’ll get there because it was, like twenty. I think twenty fourteen may have been the last time was that when we met, i think it was twenty fourteen the time we met, i think quite awhile. Yeah. Yeah. Uh oh. But then i had another trip, and then you were. I think you weren’t available. Yeah. You blew me off my last trip. I think that was two years ago. Twenty. Um, okay, so we’re talking about donorsearch vice funds. You have some interesting stats about how popular they are that they’ve grown oh, since twenty twelve, give us give us just some basic numbers so we know why we should be paying attention to these things. Sure. And i think some of your listeners may know that that we have to start paying attention to donorsearch buy-in funds and and i’ll i’ll use the lingo dafs if that don’t get me into jargon, no that’s that’s approved. Yeah, okay, so dafs sir, like the fastest growing recipients of charitable giving now in the in the u s so donations of increased from just under fourteen billion in two thousand twelve two. Twenty three billion in two thousand sixteen. And meanwhile, sort of in two thousand sixteen, we’ve seen the top. I think six, uh, charities or six recipients of charitable giving in the country were dafs so, you know, the biggest one being fidelity charitable out doing united way and and american red cross and everyone else. So six out of the top ten recipients of charitable giving were dashed. Something to pay attention, tio sure on also the interesting that the growth rate so you cited uh, fourteen billion in twenty twelve to twenty three. Billion. Twenty, sixteen that’s. Two thirds growth, sixty six percent over five years, and individual giving over that was five years grew by only fifteen percent. Yeah, and you’ll see a lot of reports now saying, suggesting that they’re fewer and fewer donors e-giving teo to public charity, that air doing direct service work. Now, the big donors are still contributing, but fewer numbers of smaller donors, and part of that because of the tax incentive that are changing. But, you know, that’s, huge growth in the donor by fun, you know, in light of those numbers of lessening donors, the growth of donor advice on sixty six percent over five years. Any investment manager would love that. Yeah, no kidding. Shoretz naturally. My my portfolio would certainly love that. My portfolio buy-in buy high sell low. That seems to be my mantra if you look at my portfolio over the lifetime of my portfolio, um, so you and there are a couple of reasons why these air so attractive to individuals ? You know, you get that immediate tax deduction first ? Yeah. I mean, it works great. From the donor’s perspective from, you know, from the donor, you make a contribution. You khun taken immediate charitable contribution deduction, but you get to practically kind of control that gift on and decide who you want to ultimately give it out to in future years, even if it’s going to be two years later, five years later, ten years later, twenty years later, you can sort of hold it in that fund. Now, legally speaking, you make that gift immediately, and you get the deduction. Because your gift is complete. You have given it to a charity in the in the year you made that gift. But practically speaking, that charity that’s, the dafs sponsoring organization, that donor by sun sponsoring organization, which typically is associate it either with a financial services company like fidelity. Charitable that’s the biggest, you know, charity that that receives gibson in the world or hyre you can give it to a community foundation that’s, the other big sponsoring organization of bath and so legally they have control of the money. But practically speaking, they’re probably going to listen to where you want to make the donations to so long that it’s illegal distribution later, so long as you’re going to make the grant toe another public charity, even if it’s you know your intention to give it twenty years later, that’s okay ? Yeah, the donor’s make what’s called a recommendation to the to the charity fundez holding their donor advised funds and ninety nine times out of one hundred. The recommendation is approved. I think basically, they’re just looking to make sure it is a bona fide five o one c three charity that’s being recommended. And then the fund hyre approves that recommendation and makes a gift from from its fund to do that to that five. Twenty three ? Yeah, i think that’s right, tony. So, you know from from the sponsoring organizations by then they might have a little bit more in terms of little legal obstacle. Teo to live up to but from from the perspective of the donor, a lot of them feel like it’s still their money, they still get to control where they’re going to make a grant to even after they’ve taken the charitable contribution deduction, right ? And it’s, you know, apart from sort of getting an immediate charitable contribution deduction, it also allows him to do other things like it allows them to give annually i’m sorry it allows them to bundle up their donation, so maybe they give to a charity to the dafs sponsoring organization like once every five years, and they do that because the incentives for getting a charitable tax deduction have drop because, you know, i don’t want to get too technical, but the rise of the standard deduction that took effect earlier this year and we talked about that that already means only five to ten percent of taxpayers actually get a charitable contribution deduction anymore for making a gift, because the standard deduction is higher than their itemize, but by bundling there donations and say, bundling them up. So instead of making a five thousand dollar gift every year and not being able to use that to get a deduction, they can decide to make a twenty five thousand dollar gift over five years, and then that twenty five thousand dollars now, combined with their other itemized deductions, is big enough to get the value that deduction so they can use the dafs to give every five years. But the charity that they want to be the beneficiary of the fund could receive money from the dafs on an annual basis after they do that, so to the charities that looks like the donor is giving to them every year once that funded the death. So another another useful way that that an individual can use the donor advised funds that’s created by the new tax laws understand, right ? You gross it up to get the get the hyre deduction compared to the standard, and then you can give it out, uh, slowly over time, all right, but make it make it the gift huge big enough to take advantage of the larger deduction at one time or maybe a couple times over several years, exactly in the charity might like that, too, if they’re like saying, you know, we actually don’t need your annual contribution because we’re actually saving up to buy a building or to create this brand new project. So if a year five you give us the larger gift, we would really appreciate that, so it can work for everyone involved as well. Okay, we’re going to take our first break, but when we come back, we’re going to talk about this feature of being able to latto it’s, make your gifts directly to the to the charities over over lots of time and the constant nation that that causes tell us for pete’s sake. Oh my goodness! Think of the companies you can refer and start asking them. You’ve heard the charity testimonials. You’ve heard the company testimonials, it’s time to claim your own long stream of passive revenue from tell us fifty percent of the card processing fees that tell us gets from the companies you refer. Go to you fifty percent month after month after month. That’s your long stream of passive revenue. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tell us now, let’s, go back to jean takagi. Okay, uh, sometimes i don’t remember where i am. But this time i do. So i made because i said it, okay, so this feature that you can give over time over many, many, many years causes consternation in the non-profit community. Do i have that right ? Yeah, you’re right. So what ? You know what ? If the donor is e-giving annually to their donors buy-in spun and saying to the charity, you know, well, i’ll give to you at the end of five years at the end of ten years from my donor advised funds, but, you know, in five or ten years that donor, right have other priorities, and so that charity that used to get the annual gifts from that donor might not be on that list anymore, and so they can’t really think about that in their budget, so it does create some concern by charity. Yeah. Now, in that case, i mean, if i were advising them, i would get that pledge in a written document and the legal enforceability of that, you know, we can we can write us that it’s got some enforceability weaken. We’re relying on your promise, we’re going to take some administrative actions. Buy-in reliance, you know, maybe there’s a small consideration, maybe there’s a small dahna yeah, so, you know, we can we can we could make that legally enforceable in a lot of states, if not all the states, yeah, i think that’s true, tony, but then you have to think about whether even if you win the battle with the one donor-centric it in court, what that does in terms of the long term and your relationship with every other donors who now knows you sue donors when i don’t clean get yeah, yeah, i mean, you got a definitely are you ? Yeah, i know you’re right. This is an interesting conversation because planned e-giving i’ve dealt with this and way we deal with it as gifts come, and i’ve dealt with the aftermath of it after afterwards, i’ve never had a client that that maybe i shouldn’t reveal this. I don’t know clients non-profits are very reluctant to sue their donors. They you rather work something out. Andi it’s true, i haven’t had a client that well, first of all, i haven’t had that many clients we have to enforce we had where we had to force agreements against, uh, right against the donors and that’s, very rare that you have. To hold this document up that they signed years earlier and remind them of the enforceability of it on ben, you know, charities are reluctant to do it and have to be, i don’t have to be a scenario where there’s a lot of money at stake and it’s a pretty clear case because you’re right, the pr is very bad, and, you know, it may never even make the popular press, but just in donorsearch coll’s within that individual organization, you know, things get around, especially if it is a large gift from a prominent donor. Back-up yeah, and especially that donors still alive tony versus in a plan gift where you might be contesting it against airs or for other recipients of that. But when the donor is still alive and saying, i don’t like your charity as much as i used to, i still like you a little bit, but i don’t want to give you my full gift that i thought i wanted to give to you that’s a tough i got a raise, so there is a practical aspect too the enforceability of these agreements that i’m saying can be made legally enforceable, but but the enforceability and itself sometimes is enough of a persuasive factor to a donor that, you know, i think they keep up their commitment when, when they think they might not have otherwise might never go to court. Yeah, but the donor might see the seriousness of the donation and know that he would hurt the charity he or she would hurt the charity if they didn’t go through with that pledge because maybe relied on it to partially constructed building, and you need the full funds to finish construction. Otherwise you can’t do it, and you’ve wasted a lot of money and may be created some lawsuits against you for not being able to do it. So the donors, you know, relying on that donor’s money to your detriment or twenty to your detriment is is the basis for a lawsuit, and that would hopefully be convincing to a donor, even without the lawsuit part that you relied on on their promised teo, meet their place. I like heidtke idea. Yeah. Okay. Um but the bigger issue so let’s take it away from an individual charity. The bigger issue is that there’s. A lot of money parked in dahna. Advice, funds and we really don’t know how much and the what bothers congress and a lot of people in the charity community is that this money is parked there and it’s not getting to the five oh one see threes that it’s that it was that the donor earned a charitable deduction for giving to you it could sit indefinitely literally, right ? Yeah, so under tax laws, it could sit there indefinitely. So the donor advice fun sponsoring organization is not legally compelled to make any distributions at all. If the donor says nothing about it for ten years, twenty years than the sponsoring organization doesn’t have to do it. Although some of started to say, you know what ? We’ll have an internal policy that says, if you don’t, if you’re completely inactive your fund, we will start to make distributions based on what information we have of where you want it to go, so they’re trying to do some self regulation there, but there are no external laws right now that required donorsearch funds, teo, make any distributions at all. Yeah, well, i suspect they see a lot of a lot of the the the concerns, especially from the isat, the senate finance committee, charles grassley, chuck grassley is chair of is that senate finance ? Yeah, right, well, the senate finance committee might be concerned with that asshole, but they’re really the argument is going on with academics and professionals and big organizations, including community foundations and these big financial institutions all over the place. And you’re seeing a lot of books on the non-profits sector now sort of criticizing no philantech be including through donorsearch buy-in funds and the controls that these donors have over large amounts of money even after they’ve taken the deduction. Interesting, interesting discussions out there now now it za parallel to me, you know it’s, it’s, it’s similar to a lot of the planned gift’s a similar principle or policy around a lot of the planned gif ts so take i’m thinking like the charitable remainder trusts or charitable gift annuities where basically ah, person let’s use the trust because that’s not that’s, not charity specific. So let’s use that example. Someone creates a charitable ranger trust. They leave the option. Teo name some charitable beneficiaries a cz remainder beneficiaries which means at the death of the donor what’s left, goes to these charities and in the during the life of the donor or donors, sometimes a lot of times, it’s a couple there getting income for their getting income. So getting income for life when they die, what remains goes to charities, and they reserve the right to change your those charities might be now they get an immediate income tax deduction for that. When they create that in the year that they create that charitable remainder trust. So i see a similar policy. No it’s it’s. An immediate deduction for a long term gift to charity. Although there is some guarantee because the difference is that the donors are going to die and when they die, the people getting that people died getting the income die, there will definitely be a gift to charity. So there’s there’s that right there is that limiting factor. But you could see the policy similarity, right ? Yeah. That’s. Definitely some similarities. But i think that the donor advised funds are more concerning, particularly because when you do a charitable remainder trust, for example, your deduction is going to be the value of the gift that ultimately is left over for the charity using you. Know, like actuarial tables. Yeah, that present value there going ? Yeah. So what is it going to be worth ? The likely could based on average, like bands and stuff. What will the charity likely get ? That’s what you can deduct the donor advised funds, especially if you give gifts of like real estate or privately, closely held stock, you get to not pay any capital gains on it. If you’re a donor on, then you get a deduction of the fair market value, which is big because if you gave it to a private foundation, if you formed a private foundation, you don’t get that gift a fair market value, that deduction of fair market value essentially get the deduction of cost. So being able to sell something that, you know, wildly appreciated in value and getting the fair market value deduction and not having to pay any capital gains on it and then still having the practical control of where to ultimately spend that money. Um, you can see how that might be even more attractive. A donation vehicle tow an individual donor, but why ? At the same time they’re concerned some from from congress and from from others. Who think that they are, you know, advocates for the nonprofit sector of saying is really going to be put to good use for charitable use, or is it going to sit in these funds, particularly in funds that are run by some of the financial institutions where their continued to get, you know, investment season stuff that that air being generated because they’re continually being invested ? You know what charitable good are those funds doing ? You know, professionally, you know, if they’re if they’re held by fidelity and being managed and no promise of went to distribute. All right, hold that let’s, take our last break hoexter give, you’ll get more revenue because they make e-giving simple if your donor’s consent a text that can make a donation not only simple, affordable and secure ceo chadband oid very smart guy, he set up a smart company. You want to get the info, which you should, you should want to get the info text, npr. Two, four, four, four nine nine nine and you will ah, not only get info, but also be able to claim a special listener offer. We’ve got several more minutes left for fund-raising no, not fund-raising dahna advice funds where’s, my where’s, my lousy intern. I wish i had one. We’re not talking about fund-raising that was a big mistake. Sorry, jean. We’re talking about dahna advice funds. I need an intern. Esso, i have someone to blame for this poor copy. All right ? Yeah. Yeah. The fair market value. Yes. The donor donor advised funds gives a fair market value. You made several points, but the one that hit me the most because i do plan giving is dahna advice fund to get a fair market value charitable deduction immediately plan give to get a present value deduction based on your life expectancy. So it’s going to be less. And if you hold the money in your donor’s vice fund for twenty years, it’s, in fact worth less, then it was in the year you put it in. But you’ve got a face value fair market value deduction, didn’t you ? Well, actually, you know what ? What you holding to donorsearch buy-in fundez might appreciate wildly. So if you put a, you know, a million dollars investment or even a ten thousand dollar investment into a donor advice fund of apple stock, you know when it was nothing, and you held it for ten years, and all of a sudden you’re sitting on, you know, potentially hundreds of millions of dollars and nobody take capital gains tax for that, right ? But you are, you know, the donor advisor or the donor of one hundred billion dollars fund, you know, that’s held by financial institutions, affiliated charity sponsoring dafs sponsoring organizations. And, you know, you get all sorts of benefits for, you know, being, you know, the donor to donorsearch by son. You know, you get to go to the fancy cocktail parties and gala charity gallas and people swooning all over you because, you know, you can make huge distribution to the to the folks if it was your own money, but not your own money anymore. Yeah, well, it’s, not yours, right ? It’s yours to decide what to do with, but it doesn’t belong to you. The recommendation of where it should go belongs to you. Now, of course, on the other side of that, you could have invested in. Annoy ll start. I’m trying something the stock that crashed terribly, but you might have invested in something that depreciated on dh there’s going to be a lot less left for charity because you didn’t invest well, yet you got you got a deduction for what you put into the fund initially. So in that case, the charities really do lose the public loses out because a lot less money is going to go to charity. Then we gave you a deduction for sure that’s true as well, and i don’t mean teo be sort of a nay sayer of the donor advised funds because there’s a lot of good things that they do and, you know, they’ve been around for, like over eighty years, really, with community foundations and, you know, the original intent was sort of to collaborate. Have donors collaborate with the advice of the community foundation about how they could sort of use their money’s on dh use their donations together to fund some of the most important things to benefit that community. And, you know, that aspect of donor advised funds is, i think, a wonderful thing and the, you know, a lot of critics. Who are arguing against the critics of the donor advised funds so the ones who are the pro donorsearch buys fundez woobox are saying, you know, a lot of this money that is going into donordigital fun would otherwise not go into charitable goods anyway, they might they might never make the charitable sector. S so it’s not like saying that, you know, people are e-giving too don’t advise funds, and it never gets charity that way that, you know, the counter argument is some of those funds would never get to charity unless they went through donorsearch buy-in funds. And by the way, our distribution rate is much higher than private foundation grade, so even if the donor gave it to, you know, created their own private foundation, then they’re just required to invest or grant out essentially five percent of their investment assets per year and don’t advice funds are granting out, on average, somewhere about twenty percent of their assets for years, so we don’t even have a problem here. Why do you want to create rules to limit what we’re doing but there’s a counter to that as well ? That says well, that twenty percent includes donorsearch vice funds e-giving toe, other donor advised funds and that’s like when you want to shift your donors fund from fidelity to vanguard xero or to the silicon valley community foundation or did it new york community foundation ? You’re just moving money around from one financial talkto another one charity to another, but nobody’s actually putting it to use teo, do good for the community that the other arguments and counter arguments the other problem with that look atyou doing both sides. The other problem with those measures of distribution are they could be skewed by very large gif ts that come from one or two funds while lots of small funds aren’t making any any distributions jean, we have to leave here. Maybe we should have planned this for a whole hour. But we hyre is this your lackluster host ? He’s ? Jean takagi, managing attorney of neo non-profit exempt organizations law group he’s, our legal contributor just following for god’s sake non-profit latto blood dot com and at g tak thank you very much, gene. Great talking to you next week it’s website day https and getting more gift from your sight if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p weinger cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps dot com, by tell us. Credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Creative producer is claire meyer, huh ? Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez. Marc stein is our web guy. 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