Tag Archives: nonprofit board

Nonprofit Radio for March 22, 2021: Build Your Best Better Board

My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Build Your Best Better Board
Gene Takagi returns! He’s got strategies to help you build the diverse, effective, thoughtful, appropriately-sized, well-trained board you deserve. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations law group.

 

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[00:01:39.64] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast, and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with dyskinesia if you gave me a taste of the idea that you missed this week’s show. Build your best Better board. Jeanne Takagi returns. He’s got strategies to help you build the diverse, effective, thoughtful, appropriately sized, well trained board you deserve. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group tony State, too. Podcast pleasantries and planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s my pleasure to welcome back, as it always is. Jeanne Takagi. These are legal contributor, managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the enormously popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com, and he’s at G Attack Gene, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:41.84] spk_1:
Thanks, Tony. It’s great to be back. How are you?

[00:01:59.94] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you. It’s always a pleasure. Many, many years. It’s a pleasure. Each time you’re you are teaching us what’s important, what we need to keep centered. What’s, uh where are ships Should all be facing in the same direction. So what direction is that? You keep us. Keep us on the straight path. I appreciate it. I know our listeners due to thank you.

[00:02:06.34] spk_1:
Thank you, Tony.

[00:02:23.84] spk_0:
Let’s get started with your building. Your best. Better board. We’re not We’re not gonna We’re not going to settle on nonprofit radio for your lackluster better board. We want your best, Better board. And I think the place to start is with board roles. So what are we expecting our board members to do?

[00:02:52.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I love this conversation, tony. It’s actually one of my favorites. And yeah, it was probably Gosh, it was early on, I think when we first talked a little bit about boards getting sort of distracted from doing the financial oversight and forgetting to do some of the other things that boards are supposed to do. Um, and, you know, part of what we talked about could have been, like 78 years ago was like, Hey, somebody should be over overseeing. You know, whether the program’s doing Are they having an impact or not? Are they really furthering your mission in the way that you want them to?

[00:03:11.94] spk_0:
You know, I have to remind you you and I did a mock board meeting one time, and either you threw me off the border. I walked out. I forget

[00:03:15.22] spk_1:
which

[00:03:30.04] spk_0:
back in the old studio was many years ago. I don’t know what we’re talking about. Something board related, obviously. But, uh, yeah, either I got booted off or I walked out and quit. I forget, uh, we’re trying to avoid that. We’re trying to avoid that in our best better board,

[00:03:32.54] spk_1:
but we’re definitely going to try to approach any of these things with extreme tact

[00:03:37.84] spk_0:
I lack, which I often lack. I probably walked out. I probably quit or something.

[00:06:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, just just overall, the same financial diligence is great. So take a look at the financials, make sure you understand them and make sure that the organization is able to pay off its debts that they become do that you’re not sort of bleeding money and just managing your financial assets. But non profits exist more than to produce a financial bottom line, of course. So you know in the for profit world boards and probably got a different duty, maybe a little bit more. I mean, everybody has to act in the best interests of the corporation, right? That’s a fiduciary duty. But what is the best interests of the corporation for for profit? Oftentimes it’s associated, at least in large part the benefit of its owners or shareholders. But in the non profit, there are no shareholders or owners, right? It’s for the benefit of advancing the mission. And that’s what the board has got to remember, that it’s got to be purpose driven. It’s got to be, um, acting in furtherance of the mission ahead of everything else. Um, and the one caveat I’ll add to that which we may have talked a little bit about before, as well is you’ve got to add values to that statement, so their values probably baked into your mission statement but also baked into the organizational culture. So if our mission is to feed people who are experiencing homelessness or a lack of income, resources or we’re not just going to throw food out in a trough, right? You know that might be the best way or the most effective way to get as many people fed as possible. But that would be completely inconsistent with anybody’s values. Or so values and mission sort of go hand in hand, and focusing on that is really important. So not just financial oversight, the programmatic oversight the role of the board has got to look forward to. You’ve got to set the path with those values and mission for the organization’s future, not just looking behind you, but looking ahead, um, and so guiding the organization with those thoughts, acting as ambassadors, getting the feedback from the environment about what challenges and what opportunities may be out there. Those are all things the board can bring back to the executive and to the staff, sort of to help them do their best.

[00:06:44.34] spk_0:
And these are all very, uh, lofty. And and, um, I don’t want to say pedagogical, because that makes it sound like they’re not grounded, but But these are these are very we haven’t even talked about. You know how many board meetings you have to attend in a year. And how many subcommittees you have to serve on? You know, we haven’t gotten to that yet. You know, we’re talking about the the ambition, but it has to be centered. It’s It’s like you said. It’s the mission and values of the organization. I mean, if someone doesn’t respect those, then you’re not gonna get your best better board. You’re going to get a crappy person. Maybe it gives a lot of money, but ultimately, the ships are not sailing in the same direction with all the board members on each one.

[00:06:50.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And I loved your introduction about having the best Better board. Not this lackluster,

[00:07:13.34] spk_0:
lackluster better. But yeah, that’s for other podcasts, not on the radio. We don’t tolerate lackluster mediocrity, mediocre better boards that we want to. We want the best Better board. All right, so So it really it really does start with loft and ambition around around Mission and values.

[00:07:15.74] spk_1:
I definitely think so.

[00:07:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So now let’s drill down. I mean, in terms of what we’re expecting the board to do, you have to be up front with what these expectations are and that that happens in recruitment, right? Not not in their first board meeting. You should be explaining the expectations while you’re talking to somebody about joining the board. Not after they have joined.

[00:07:41.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. And too often. I see tony and I don’t know if you’ve experienced this as well, but somebody tries to recruit you onto the board and they go, It’s really not that much work, you know. It’s easy. Um, well, that’s going to get you a lackluster and maybe not even a better board. So,

[00:07:59.57] spk_0:
um,

[00:08:45.54] spk_1:
yeah, so it really is about setting expectations of Hey, you really believe in this mission and you have the same values that we’re trying to move forward with. Let’s do something great with this organization. Let’s make a great impact here. This is These are the kind of things that we expect of our board. This is how often we meet. You know, this is, um, what we expected each board member in terms of attendance and in terms of maybe making a meaningful contribution. I don’t like set amounts because that can hurt diversity and inclusive inclusion. But a meaningful donation to to the organization it could be in time if not in money or in other ways. But the expectations, I think, need to be spelled out in front before you actually invite somebody onto the board.

[00:09:00.24] spk_0:
And when you’re spelling them out, I mean, do you Do you like to see a writing a document with, you know, Please take this home with you and consider consider, as we’re having our conversations about about you being on the board, consider all these things like you give them a document to read or just a conversation.

[00:09:24.64] spk_1:
I think both tony. So I I you know, it may depend upon the organization how formal they get, but if you do actually have a recruiting sort of policy or procedure or recruiting committee in place, I like to put some things down in writing just to make sure that we’re all on the same page and letting people know what the organization’s expectations are and how often boards meet. And if there is a meaningful contribution, expectations all of those things up front. So if somebody is not interested, they can right away say, you know, this isn’t for me, you know, I like what you do. But it’s not for me and another person who might say I’m really interested in doing all of those things. You know? I’d love to be a part of your board,

[00:10:11.94] spk_0:
All right? So be upfront about expectations. There’s no point in in concealing the work and the requirements, only to have the person blindsided when it comes time around, when it comes time for each board member to make their annual contribution. And and And they didn’t know that it was supposed to be a meaningful gift or they didn’t know there was a board giving requirement of any sort. You know, when it comes time to assign committee. So I didn’t know I was gonna be on a committee. I thought I just came to board member board meetings four times a year. Now we have committee meetings to I didn’t know about that, and then you set yourself up for a disaster.

[00:10:46.54] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And if you if you start to um, the danger of it is is you don’t want to just sort of create this list of these are the things you have to do for the organization to run. You’ve got to always again relate it back to the mission and values. This is why we love to contribute as board members to the organization. Because this is what impact we can have. And this is the direction we see ourselves going to be able to have even greater impact. So you just keep reinforcing that message to get your best board members.

[00:10:55.74] spk_0:
You let me ask you a question. Are you Are you, uh Are you by any chance, playing with a pen or or anything?

[00:11:02.14] spk_1:
I am not rocking back and forth on my chair.

[00:11:06.44] spk_0:
And I know there’s, like, a little clicking, and I’m not. I know you’re not. I know you’re not typing like you’re not writing a document while we’re talking

[00:11:13.94] spk_1:
about you’re

[00:11:14.15] spk_0:
writing a client agreement or something.

[00:11:16.51] spk_1:
Typical things you expect from a lawyer, right?

[00:11:32.14] spk_0:
Yeah. You double bill your time, right. You get $800 an hour billed to clients at $400 an hour. You’re sitting in one’s office. You’re doing the work for the other. No. Okay. No, you’re not. Your hands are free, okay? I don’t know. There’s, like, little the mice are clicking or

[00:11:33.26] spk_1:
something. Maybe I’m rocking in my chair. I will try to hold back my enthusiasm.

[00:12:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, Alright. It doesn’t It doesn’t sound like that. Okay, Well, listeners, I can’t identify the sound of the but I’ll call it out because I’m not going to keep it quiet because we all hear it, so we’ll talk about it. Well, I don’t know what it is. This little tapping, clicking my mouse sound. Let’s talk about diversity. This should be a value. You and I have talked about this. We’ve had heartfelt conversations a couple of times about white male power and using that power and sharing power. And so let’s talk about diversity as a value for your board. How does that play into what we’re talking about? Your your best. Better board?

[00:14:50.74] spk_1:
Sure. You know, for the organizations who have responded to sort of this increasing understanding and awareness that diversity is an issue in various aspects, not just on board composition, but in the way our infrastructure as a country and even as the world is designed where, um, people who are in positions of power, no matter what race or gender or whatever, whatever they are tend to create systems that keep themselves in power. And so diversity has this great benefit of saying, Let’s take other lenses and look at what we’re doing. And look at the world that we’re in, um, for nonprofits, especially the world that’s directly impacting what we’re trying to do out there for. The people were trying to do it for what is impacting it, who is being affected the most, Um, and if that’s important to to organizations and their leaders, then I think they’ve really got to embrace diversity, not just by saying it, but by actually putting action steps into what they’re doing, Whether that’s going to be building it into true board diversity with inclusion. So not making people feel, you know, like they’re they’re just a simple tokens of taking a better picture but really being able to contribute to the power of the organization to address things that other people may not have seen. So, you know, I may identify with people who I relate to, but I may have very little understanding your perspective of people who are different from me who congregate in different circles who have different ideas. Um, and we have to think about all of those things, especially for serving a classic. Beneficiaries that are board members may be far away from. So if we have a board that’s more privileged, and we are helping a lot of people who don’t have some of the privileges that the board may have in terms of representation, how will we ever see the world through their lens? How will they understand? How will we understand where services are doing from their eyes? So trying to to get that diversity in an inclusive matter for purposes of increasing equity, I think, is a value that non profit should strive for.

[00:16:11.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break turn to communications relationships. They’ve got the relationships with the media outlets so that when you need to be in the news, when there’s a news item that you need to comment on, your voice needs to be heard. Turn to has the relationships to get you heard. It’s not cold calling. They have the existing relationships. They give it like gifts. You get a lot of gifts from cold calls. Do you get any gifts from cold calls? You get your best gifts from cold calls. If you’re doing cold call fundraising. No, you don’t. Of course, it’s the same with media. The relationships are in place. So when you want to be heard, turn to picks up the phones and leverages those relationships That way you’re gonna get heard. Turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Now back to build your best. Better board. Diversity has to be centered. Um, but And you wanted to go deeper than just like the board should reflect the community or the board should reflect those we serve. You mean you’re looking for something deeper than just reflecting an environment?

[00:18:17.04] spk_1:
I think so. So it is reflecting different perspectives as well. So I think traditionally, we thought of it as a skills based diversity. Like we need a lawyer. We need an accountant. We need a financial manager, a fundraiser on our board. And then we became all a little bit more woke and we said, Hey, we need racial diversity in our organizations. Um, but we didn’t say why that was or many of us didn’t say, why do we need racial diversity in our organizations? Is it simply to make it look like we embrace diversity and we take the better picture? Or is it because we want a true understanding from somebody else with a different lens and perspective? Who could tell us if there are gaps in our services for their communities? If there are gaps in the laws that are creating inequities that affect our mission as well? So the more we get these other perspectives, whether it be from a racial diversity angle from a disability angle, which I think is increasingly a really important thing to look at as we are facing an older population where disabilities are highly, you know, they make up a great percentage of our organizations and they’re kind of sort of the the unseen Group in many ways, um, we’re just getting started on addressing some of those concerns. But, um, the way we serve people can really miss many of those that are impacted, that that would be true beneficiaries of our service if they could access our services. But if we don’t make it accessible to them, then we just missed them, and that may be completely unintentional. But if we don’t have people who can identify and spot those things because they live it, um that would be, you know, short a shortfall in leadership. And that’s where we have to sort of address, Um, taking a look with a much broader lens and not just in our boards, but in our programming, in our staffing and just getting more awareness and bringing more lenses to what we’re doing.

[00:18:55.54] spk_0:
Let’s talk about bringing someone new to the board because we’re gonna be recruiting our new board members that are going to be part of our best better board. So now if we’ve recruited the right people, we need to socialize them to the organization. It’s more than I think. It’s more than just formal training. You know, the the organization has a culture. The board has a culture. Hopefully, they’re healthy. Let’s assume, but let’s take that. Let’s assume that these are healthy. Culture is not. Not. Cultures were trying to reverse, uh, you know, like intolerance or something. But healthy cultures. There’s a formal training and an informal training.

[00:20:26.74] spk_1:
I absolutely agree with you, so you know orientations can start even at recruitment. But once you decide that you want to elect somebody onto the board and they want to be part of the board and you elect them. I think it really is important now for them to be ingrained in what the organizations and the board culture is, what the priorities are getting a better sense of what the programs are. I’ll confess. I’ve been part of boards where I may not have a very good understanding of some of the programs. I get lost in some of, you know, again, the financial reports and maybe one program officer. You know, a year shows up and describes their program well, that that’s not really giving me a full sense of what the organization is doing. So more of that, um, is really going to be beneficial. Um, it will also help in sort of preventing there from being this wall between who the board is and who the staff and who are. The people that are actually implementing the program are other than the executive director, so boards often just meet with the executive director. But in an orientation or training, I think more deeply getting ingrained and that’s a board staff retreat. Joint retreats are good things. Board buddies and maybe a board staff buddy system could also

[00:20:31.34] spk_0:
is that like is that a mentoring board board buddy?

[00:20:53.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it could be partly mentoring, but I think the relationship really extends both ways, right? We can get more information from an outsider’s perspective to help the organization, and when they have fresh eyes, they may see different things. So instead of just saying, I know more than you, I’m going to mentor you. We can be buddies and learn from each other.

[00:20:56.64] spk_0:
And then you mentioned staff buddies, too.

[00:21:21.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I I don’t think it’s a bad idea for boards again to get more involved with their staff. We don’t want to micromanage. So there is this fine line there. But just getting an understanding from the staff about what they see in the organization, I think is important other than the executive director who may be the one who attends every board meeting. But if we just see one other staff member once a year, that really isn’t giving a sense of what is going on and what the organizational culture is. We might know what the board culture is, but do we really know what the organizational culture is?

[00:22:10.34] spk_0:
If it’s a staff buddy, it’s not only micromanagement, from the board member down. But then you also have to be conscious of the staff member trying to leverage a relationship with a board member like trying to do something or avoid doing something that the CEO may want or their vice president that they report to may want or something. You know, uh, that just it has to be managed. That’s all. Just You have to be conscious of the possibility of somebody exploiting and a relationship with the board members saying things that are inappropriate. The board members.

[00:22:52.14] spk_1:
I think this has to be designed with a consultant who really understands the area because you’re absolutely right. Tony. Yeah, if you if you aren’t careful, what you’re doing is you’re creating people going behind the executives back to make complaints to board members. And that’s not what the purpose is. So it might be controlled by saying, Hey, the board staff buddy thing is a meeting of the board and staff person in a joint group in a group where we’re all meeting in different corners of the room and just talking about certain specific topics so it can be regulated a little bit more carefully with rules of the game spelled out in advance. This is not a place to complain about employment issues. This is Yeah.

[00:23:04.34] spk_0:
Um, what do you like for board terms? What do you have? Advice? Two years? Three years? Should How many? How many years or how many terms should board members be allowed to continue on?

[00:24:00.64] spk_1:
Um, there’s there’s not, you know, one specific answer. I hate the lawyers. Answer. It depends. It does. But let me just say in a large number of cases, I like the 2 to 3 year term, both balancing a little bit of need for continuity and giving a fair expectation to a new board member of that. This is not just going to be a one year thing and you’re out. Um uh, and I like to have board terms to make sure that the board doesn’t become very insular and its thinking and in its diversity by keeping board members on perpetually until they’re ready to resign. It also makes it hard to ever remove a board member if people think that they have a right to serve on the board forever. So I kind of like board members not to be on board for, like maybe five or six years. Um, having said that, there are times

[00:24:02.67] spk_0:
when to not be on for five or six years

[00:24:04.99] spk_1:
to beyond that

[00:24:08.44] spk_0:
beyond. For five, like maybe two, 23 year terms, two year terms or 23 year terms of the most

[00:24:41.64] spk_1:
something. Something like that. Now, a lot of exceptions to that, if you have, if you had trouble building aboard and you have some great champions on the board. But those have been kind of the long term people who really know and really invested, and everybody else has been sort of lackluster. Um, I don’t think you should kick off your strongest board members, so you have to really think about that before you implement it. It is sort of an idealistic goal to have those term limits and, um, 2 to 3 year terms. But in other situations, I would say one size doesn’t fit. Also, take a look at your own board composition first before you make those type of decisions.

[00:25:19.94] spk_0:
What about in terms of socializing to the board, having social events for the board? Occasionally, Maybe it’s a dinner after a meeting. Um, I wouldn’t have cocktails before a meeting. But you could have cocktails after a meeting, you know, trying to get the board to get to know the members, to know each other outside the board. What else do you do? You go skiing, you go snowmobiling. You know, you’re a Fisher fisherman. You know things like that.

[00:25:26.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I love that idea. I’ve even had cocktails before boarding. So,

[00:25:31.63] spk_0:
uh, all right,

[00:26:10.84] spk_1:
but yes, um, for board members to trust each other and to be open to each other’s ideas and respect each other, the more you know each other, the more likelihood that that’s all going to happen and that you’re going to actually build the board culture rather than have people who don’t know each other who are trying to get out of the meeting, to watch a basketball game or be home with their family and sort of sit and say, This is my duty. For the next hour, I’m going to sit here, take notes and listen and try to do my job. But think of it just as a job. It’s going to be less productive. I think that if you come in and say I love these people that are kind of get to work with. And we’re trying to build something great so we can make change in the world or in our community. And so I really like coming to these events and getting a sense of it. Sometimes there’s, you know, those ice breaker things you know, for five or 10 minutes in front of a meeting that can be hit or miss and oftentimes a

[00:26:33.10] spk_0:
miss. How many people can you talk to in 10 minutes?

[00:26:35.46] spk_1:
Yeah, and that’s another reason why you shouldn’t have too big a board as well. If you have 50 people at a to our board meeting, how many people are going to get to

[00:26:51.84] spk_0:
talk, right? That’s yeah, So I know that I know your answer is there’s no hard and fast answer for this one. But since you just let into it, share your advice on on board size,

[00:28:13.54] spk_1:
Yes. So my maybe not so helpful advice is not too few and not too many, um, that if we dive down a little deeper, you need, um or you’d like to have as many board members as you can utilize to help you govern the organization and help the organization and the board do its best job. So if that number is eight, or if that number is 15, that’s, you know that may be your ideal board size. It’s more important to me to get the right people on the board, um, rather than the right number. But if you can, if you have less than five and you’re a mature organization, I start to worry that you’re gonna lack that diversity in many different perspectives. Um, and if you’ve got more than 20 I have a feeling that a lot of board members feel like their contributions are not being heard because they don’t have an opportunity to sort of verbally contribute, especially if there are few dominant board members at meetings and in a two hour meeting, even 20 people are going to have a chance to say how much about how many issues it will be very few. So to really think about that, and you want to encourage board members to attend every board meeting, not just sort of half of the board meetings or think that they can take a free ride because you’ve got enough people to do that job. I’ll just help on a committee. You don’t want them to feel that way. You want them to feel very invested.

[00:28:31.24] spk_0:
So you feel like an expectation is you attend every board meeting either physically or virtually.

[00:28:33.84] spk_1:
I think that’s the expectation. And if people are missing, you know, one out of 41 out of five meetings, one out of 10 meetings, you know that might be acceptable for special circumstances. But you don’t want it to be a habit. I think you want to aspire to have everybody attend all of them.

[00:28:58.64] spk_0:
Okay, Um, what do you What do you feel like talking about board wise that we haven’t talked about yet? Let’s not go to how to get rid of a board member yet that’s that’s toward the end. What’s your what’s on your mind around your best? Better board?

[00:30:44.94] spk_1:
Well, we talked about kind of the expectations of what the board should do, but they think each director’s gotta ask that question of themselves as well. And maybe that’s part of the board. Recruitment and orientation package is kind of a list of however many 10 things that board members should aspire to do themselves, uh, to be part of this board and attend all meetings. We talked about that, but what else should they do? They should review financials regularly, so if they’re getting a financial before each meeting, they should review them. They should know that they are expected to ask questions that might be at the board meeting or that might be before the board meeting. But if they’re getting information aboard package in advance, which they should get, um, about the matters that are going to be up for discussion at the board, they should know that they should review it first. And if they have any questions, they should share it with the group. Um, and that doesn’t happen enough, in my opinion, that there are these questions and everybody saves it for the board meeting, and then they run out of time to discuss all the issues that they want to. So just having it kind of on an email sort of mass email, the board package comes out on email, and people can ask questions about it so that everybody gets an advanced preview of what some of the issues are before you go into that board meeting and then start to discuss things a little bit more detail. Some of those things might need a little research to be answered to. The executive might have to talk to an accountant or a lawyer or someone else and say, Let’s find out what the answer is and you know that does away with that issue even before the meeting, if you can share that information. So that’s another thing to just think about.

[00:31:35.04] spk_0:
What about managing the board? Uh, some. Some larger organizations have a board liaison where that’s probably not most of our listeners with someone who’s devoted to the board. I think that’s more like university style, big university style. But there doesn’t have to be a lot of staff support for the board. I mean, not only the you mentioned getting the board packages to them at least a week. I’d say in advance, maybe a week or 10 days in advance, something like that. But it goes beyond that. Board members have questions. Have these questions that you’re suggesting they ask in advance of meetings? Um, committee work has to be supported. How do we How do we make sure that we’re giving the board members the support that they need.

[00:33:00.24] spk_1:
Yeah, and it’s a great balance. Is it? Well, it’s a great question, but it is a tough one to answer because of the balance that you have to think of. You want the board to be informed so that they can be of help to the organization. But you don’t want the board to put on so many demands upon the staff that they’re really hurting the staff’s ability to do the work of the organization, the programmatic work that’s needed. So there is a little bit of balance there. I know many staff members and executives hate kind of preparing the board for the board meeting because it may take so much work. Sometimes it’s because they’re trying to justify what they are doing to the board, because the board may come in with a little bit of a negative skew about, you know, prove to us that you’re doing good work of some kind. That may be the perception that the staff is getting. I don’t think any boards are overtly saying that, but I feel that staff can come into it a little bit defensively in preparation of board materials rather than this is an ally of ours. This should be the strongest ally that we have this board group. Let’s give them information and questions for them so that they can help us do our job better. Um, and that takes time. But how many staff are involved with the executive? Certainly is meeting with them. That probably goes without saying if there is a financial person there other than the executive, that person should probably have frequent contact.

[00:35:45.54] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take to the podcast. Pleasantries. They gotta go out. That’s what we start with. Plan giving accelerator that’s coming. The podcast. Pleasantries. Uh, I’m enjoying the nostalgia of sending these again. I’ve missed it. I guess I I ignored it for a while. My my mistake. I’m sorry about that. Pleasantries to you, our podcast listener. Well, you individually. But there’s more than just one of you out there. There’s over 13,000 of you out there. So, to the podcast, listeners pleasantries. You know, I’m grateful. I am. I’m glad you’re with us. I’m glad you’re learning that non profit radio helps you helps your organization open conversations, take action steps, open discussions with the board. Your CEO, your vice president, Whoever it is, you bring stuff too. I’m glad it helps you do all that. And I hope there’s the action steps to I’m sure there are. There is. I’m sure there are the action steps. I’m sure there are. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for being with me. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Each of you plan giving accelerator that is the online membership community that I created to help you get your plan giving program started and growing. It’s a membership that you join for a year, and I teach you month by month lesson by lesson, Step by step. Everything you need to get your planned giving program started and growing. If you’re not doing planned giving and you would like to be, is it on your to do list? Have you, like so many folks? Say to me, Had this on your mind for a couple of years. You can get it done. You can get it started to get the initial thing started, and that’s done and then the program continues. I mean, the program doesn’t finish after a year. You continue your playing giving program indefinitely, of course, but you’ll get plan giving off your to do list. You get the going done. Your started 2021. The next class starts April 1st, all the info on how to pick my brain and have me teach you planned giving starting up step by step. Is that planned? Giving accelerator dot com. Okay, that is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for build your best better board with Jean Takagi.

[00:36:41.93] spk_1:
I didn’t mean to downplay the role of somebody from programming coming in speaking to the board once in a while, I think I wanted to say that that was insufficient for the board to know what’s going on programmatically. But having people come in a little bit more regularly, or at least providing materials to the board more regularly about the program’s impact, you know, and that could be through stories as well. I’m kind of like in fundraising make the board engaged with what the organization is doing programmatically and invested in doing more to help the organization do better with its programs, either serve more people are doing in a better way. You want to create that connection so that the board rallies around you and actually helps you rather than just again just providing oversight and saying We want to make sure everything is lawful. Give us all this information to make, you know, make sure that we can do that. You want to do get more from your board.

[00:37:26.53] spk_0:
I like the idea of regular presentations at board meetings from from program staff. Maybe the 1st 15 minutes of a board meeting every time is from some different employee. Maybe maybe it’s not a unique pro, maybe not different programs every time. But I like the idea of devoting some board time each each meeting to to programs to what our work is, but but not being acquainted by the CEO. But having someone who’s on the ground doing the work answering, I think that would be a real fertile ground for questions to from the board and provides ongoing training.

[00:37:28.53] spk_1:
I think so, too, and maybe even somebody who is a beneficiary of the services

[00:37:32.89] spk_0:
beneficiary to yes

[00:37:51.23] spk_1:
to say Hey, you know you get a chance to speak to the board to because we want to know what you feel about our programs and our organization and how you’ve been treated. So, um, I think those things are good, and I I again think, tony, that will just energize aboard to want to do more if they feel more connected to what the organization is actually doing and not just reading about it and listening to the executive tell them about it.

[00:38:15.32] spk_0:
What about that important CEO board chair relationship that should be very collegial? It should be supportive. What what’s your advice around for? The CEO is probably mostly CEOs listening, although we do have board members listening. But probably we have more CEOs than we do board chairs. So what’s your advice there for them? Although

[00:39:07.82] spk_1:
I’ll say that probably a fair number of CEOs have actually acted in the capacity of a board chair as well and other organizations, so they may understand some of the roles from both sides. I think my advice is what you have just said, as well as to have this collegial relationship and develop one where there’s one of trust where the CEO is not afraid to go to the board and say, I’ve got some bad news. Um, I’m looking for some guidance on this. If the CEO is always about, um, my pay or my job security can be affected by telling bad news to the board chair. So I’m going to try to, uh,

[00:39:09.52] spk_0:
show hide it, make it sound, not as bad as it is not. Be completely honest, etcetera.

[00:39:26.32] spk_1:
Yeah, I think of what you know. For profit, boards of directors may say to their shareholders in public companies, Right, like you want to pose the best view of that organization as possible. I don’t think that’s a healthy relationship for nonprofit board to have its executive,

[00:39:37.42] spk_0:
and and that should be frequent communication to I mean, shouldn’t shouldn’t the CEO feel comfortable picking up the phone and seeking the advice of the board chair?

[00:40:20.31] spk_1:
I think so. And if it’s not the board chair, I I think it’s okay at times. So your board culture is going to have to allow for this, but for them to pick up the phone and talk to another board member, So I’m when I serve on the board. I’m sometimes the only lawyer on the board. I want the CEO to be able to talk to me. I’m not going to be their legal counsel, But I might have a point of view. Or I might spot an issue if they feel like, Hey, is this something we need to talk to our lawyer about? Maybe our board chair wouldn’t be able to answer that question. But maybe I would as a board member. So, yeah, I like the CEO of being able to reach out to multiple board members for for different issues. Yeah,

[00:40:48.21] spk_0:
all right. Should we should we talk about terminating board members the topic before before their time is, Do so Let’s say, you know, a three year term and they’ve been on for a year, and they’re obstreperous, lackluster, unkind. They don’t belong. Let’s just for whatever reason, they don’t belong.

[00:43:09.10] spk_1:
Sure. What do we do? Yeah, it’s a real tough one, right. So, um, sometimes you have to look at it holistically. So oftentimes I get a call and that situation will arise. But it will turn out that that board members also the biggest donor to the organization right now you’ve got to think a little more diplomatically and strategically about how to do this. Um um So again, not one size fits all But one method that some organizations have used has been to say, Let’s talk with this board member and try to find the best role for them in the organization and see if we can move them off the board but into this other role, whether it be advisory, um, or whether it be in an, uh in an honorary position for being, you know, uh, something emeritus. So give them a fancy title. Ask them to show up at fundraising events, um uh, or to to speak to two foundations when you go out with them to do a pitch, maybe that’s where their strength is. And maybe there’s enough there of their passion for the mission and for the organization and what it does. While they don’t have passion for doing the work of a director in a strategic and diplomatic way, they may still have passion for the mission of the organization. And let’s try to take advantage of that, um, and use it in a way where nobody will use sort of the Asian mentality of nobody loses face right, like so everybody gets to keep their dignity and look good. But let’s try to take advantage of not having that person be disruptive on the board anymore. And if that person isn’t giving you much of a contribution in any way, then once in a while removal is an unpleasant but sometimes necessary option. And boards may have to decide that again. Uh, they’re going to ask somebody where they’re actually going to vote to tell somebody, um, that their services as a director are no longer needed, Um, but that has to also be done diplomatically. You have to be careful of alleging reasons for doing that because that could get you involved in a defamation lawsuit from that person if they’re upset with it and litigious so carefully.

[00:43:20.20] spk_0:
So this should be something that’s in the bylaws, then removal of a board member. Yeah, you need to have a documented process.

[00:44:17.09] spk_1:
I think that’s right, tony. A lot of, um, boards have eliminated that from the bylaws because you see that as a negative. But then they would default to the code, right, and they’re not going to usually look up what the code says about removal. It has to be done in a certain way, and in some cases it can get a little bit complicated. If you have a voting membership structure like for certain charities, they might have members who actually elect their board members. It’s more common in trade associations and homeowners associations things like that. But some charities have voting members, and removal, then becomes a lot more complicated. But having it having the procedure in your bylaws at least gives you kind of like the encyclopedia. Look at how to do this properly without feeling like it’s going to be too hard. We can’t do it and just live with it.

[00:44:26.89] spk_0:
I’m not familiar with this model you just described because you and you said it’s some five oh one C threes have elected board members. So

[00:44:28.78] spk_1:
yeah,

[00:44:29.71] spk_0:
so it has. The board has voted members on and can only remove them,

[00:45:22.59] spk_1:
actually the opposite way. So members elect the board members, so the members are responsible for electing and potentially removing board members. So you might think of that more in terms of like a union or a professional association or homeowners association, where all the homeowners elect the board. If they don’t like the board, they’ll remove them and put somebody else on to that board. So some charities are also structured that way. And that was to sort of been seen as a more democratic process of ensuring that the board stays responsive to what the members think. The mission is supposed to be, um, for smaller organizations. I generally don’t recommend it because it’s more costly. It’s much more difficult to manage and administer. Um, but nevertheless, I would say about 5 to 10% of the charities that we run into small charities we run into are structured that way.

[00:45:32.49] spk_0:
Not ideal, though, but they’re trying to be democratic. And

[00:45:36.99] spk_1:
that’s right.

[00:46:19.48] spk_0:
Okay, I see. All right. Well, that Yeah, that conversation to to hope that opening that conversation with the director to be removed is is hard. Maybe maybe the maybe the board member themselves themselves, uh, maybe the person. Maybe they can’t find the right pronoun. Maybe that person isn’t happy in the role either. That’s a possibility. It could be. You know, you could sort of open the conversation with it. Seems like, you know, this isn’t as you were suggesting, and I’m kind of putting a few things together. It seems like this isn’t quite the right role for you. You don’t seem happy as a board member. Uh, you know, you could open the conversation that way in trying to find something else to offer

[00:46:43.88] spk_1:
them. I think that’s a great way often to frame that that situation. I actually wrote an article for the nonprofit Quarterly. I think called something like 10 Reasons Why a director made gracefully want to resign from their organization, um, board. And so, yeah, framing it from their perspective and what they’re not getting is probably a good way to start it.

[00:46:59.58] spk_0:
I thought of something else before we wrap up. What do you think about junior boards, you know, maybe have an advisory role? There’s sort of a training improving ground for future board members, whatever you call it, might. It might just be the advisory board or something. But what do you think of that? That having, uh, that in your organization,

[00:47:26.78] spk_1:
I think you’ve done well. It works. Um, really Well, it raises potential future board members and gives you an introduction to the organization. Rather than bringing somebody straight into the board. They have a chance to be part of whatever you want to call it an advisory committee or, uh, the junior board. I would be careful with the name, depending upon who you’re planning to put on it.

[00:47:30.99] spk_0:
So junior board is not so good. All right.

[00:47:33.37] spk_1:
Unless it’s for, you know, unless you’re putting minors on it for advisory positions. Okay. Okay.

[00:47:44.08] spk_0:
But advisory, an advisory board advisory committee. And and it gets to be seen as a stepping stone for some folks to the board membership.

[00:48:04.17] spk_1:
Yeah, and to offer thought leadership from different perspectives. Um, so I think that’s good. But if you’re trying to increase diversity through an advisory border, Junior. But I would say Be very careful to make it not look like it is of less importance. And that’s why these people were put on that.

[00:48:54.37] spk_0:
Oh, yeah, right. Right. So all your yes, all your all the folks of color and other underrepresented groups are on the advisory board. Yeah, that’s well, that’s a sham. Alright, That’s right. Exactly. That’s inhumane. Alright. Yeah, I’m surprised you thought of that, Gene. You’re well. You see the good and the bad. All right, you’ve It’s not that you thought of it. You’ve seen it. You’ve seen it. I guess it’s It’s out there somewhere. All right. Thank you, Jeanne. Outstanding. Outstanding advice. Jeanne Takagi, our legal contributor. You’ll find them at nonprofit law blog dot com. You can find him at Columbia University if you’re a member of their student body in, uh, what is it? The nonprofit nonprofit management program at Columbia?

[00:49:01.07] spk_1:
Yep.

[00:49:07.17] spk_0:
Okay, so you’ll find him there. You also find him at neo law group dot com and you’ll find him at G T A K at G Tech. Thank you very much, Gene.

[00:49:12.87] spk_1:
Thanks, tony. Been a pleasure.

[00:50:05.17] spk_0:
My pleasure. As always. Thanks. Next week, I’m asking you to trust me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for November 2, 2020: Boards And Asking Styles

My Guest:

Brian Saber: Boards And Asking Styles

Brian Saber returns with his new book, “Boards And Asking Styles.” Your board’s Rainmakers, Go-Getters, Kindred Spirits and Mission Controllers all need to work with each other, your CEO and your staff. Brian shepherds you through how to make that happen. He’s president of Asking Matters.

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:02:12.84] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host is non profit radio your favorite abdominal podcast? I certainly hope so. You know there are seven days in a head, Ahmad, Of course, that’s the noun form. I’m so proud of myself. When I discover a new word that I have to open with this on. I want to thank Miriam Webster for sending it to me that I can discover it and be so proud. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. Id Bear the pain of leishmaniasis If you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show boards and asking styles, Ryan Saber returns with his new book, That’s It. That’s the title boards and asking styles. Very straightforward. No fluff in the title reserved all the fluff for the book. We explore how the asking matters work that he pioneered will help strengthen your board responsive by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives, raise more money changed more lives. Tony dot m a slash dot for a free demo and a free month non tony steak to a November webinar. I’m very pleased to welcome Brian Saber back to non profit radio. He’s president of asking matters home to the asking styles which help people understand and embrace their unique strengths. As fundraisers, he’s spent his entire career asking for money for nonprofits. I’m gonna telethon, Caller. I made your gift officer and executive director and now as a consultant. His first book was asking Styles Revolutionize your fundraising. His latest book We’re Here to Talk About Today is boards and asking styles. A roadmap to success. Asking matters is that asking matters calm and he’s at Brian Saber. Brian. Welcome back to the show. Congratulations on the new book.

[00:02:21.54] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thanks for having me back. I’m glad to see that Cove. It has indulged your wit at all.

[00:02:28.16] spk_1:
Thank you for recognizing that I haven’t undoubtable wit. I’m, uh I’m floored by that s oh, what a way to launch. Tony is wit. Uh, it’s not dull. It’s definitely not dull. No,

[00:02:40.64] spk_0:
it is not. We can use all of it that we could get these days.

[00:03:24.74] spk_1:
Yeah, we could use even even my just barely a Ndlela wit. Thank you. Uh, no, you gotta have fun. It’s my show, you know, whatever the hell I want to do, I mean, I just, you know, we’re gonna We’re gonna learn. But if we’re not gonna have fun, I’m not gonna bother personally personal. So lets you Mm. Let’s start out with the asking styles. We gotta lay the groundwork for the for. The handful of listeners don’t know aren’t well acquainted with the asking styles. Let’s lay that framework for folks. Then we’ll see how it helps your board. What’s his asking styles thing? Great.

[00:04:30.64] spk_0:
So the asking styles were developed a decade ago. Now by my co founder, Andre kills dead and myself. We develop them because everywhere we looked in the field, we saw people who said I’m not a fundraiser. I’m not this. I’m not that in particular. We saw it with the boards. Most board members have come onto boards. Will say I’ll do anything but fundraise. I’m not a fundraiser. I hate fundraising. I can’t ask my friends for money and so forth. And we knew how critical boards were to fundraising and that the type of fundraising. We were talking about the more significant gifts that come from developing relationships one on one, that that fundraising was all based on personality and relationship. It was much more art than science, and we had to help people understand where they fit in it so they could be comfortable. So we went about figuring out what makes someone’s asking style. We felt two characteristics. How one interacts and how one thinks were most important, how one acts on the extrovert introvert spectrum, how one thinks on the analytic, intuitive spectrum, and based on that there would be four basic styles and that you fall into one quadrant or another, but with a little bit of another style that no one felt cleanly in one box. There were some people who were uber this or uber that so such analytic introverts, the type of people who sit behind a computer writing code all day and such intuitive extroverts that, you know, creative just floating all over the place. You could never pin him down with massive ideas, but that most of us were somewhere in between had a little bit of this and that and we wanted people understand that. So we created this rubric for the field for the field of non profit to help everyone feel more comfortable and understand how to fundraise more successfully. How to tell their story in their own way from their own strengths. Not to worry about an elevator pitch, not to worry about reciting lots of outcomes measurements if they want to speak from the heart and a different, passionate, visionary way not to worry about that piece of what really sold them was outcomes and goals and plans that they had to speak in the language that was authentic to them. And that would be compelling, uh, to the donor, Teoh, a prospect or a current donor. So that’s that’s what we developed and meeting

[00:06:25.34] spk_1:
meeting board members. I realize this is not only for board members, but that’s our conversation today, and that’s you’re saying that’s where you found it. Most relevant, and then where they where they are, what worked with what you are type of person that you are in the quadrant will identify the quadrants and versus trying to make you something that you’re not, makes you uncomfortable

[00:06:29.20] spk_0:
right, and we started with boards than spent a number of years, much more focused on staff, developing a lot of materials in depth courses in a membership in such a brother. I bought Andreae now seven years ago, which is hard to believe. So I

[00:06:44.65] spk_1:
was going to say Now this started with you and Andrea Kill Stead, who’s been on the show. And then what? You pushed her out. You took her expertise on, then pushed her out for a nominal buyout.

[00:09:47.96] spk_0:
I broke her kneecaps and said, That’s it. Off you go. Um, you know, Andre is a She is a huge go get her. She’s a big ideas person and she has brought a tremendous amount of the field. But it was at her instigation because she said, You know what, Brian? I like really building these things. I have these big ideas. They’re running. It’s not really me, and I can see where you because my secondaries mission controller and I could do this plan full stuff where you would be better at running it and and and Andrea is significantly older than I am. I don’t think she would be bothered by my saying that. So she within a different point in her life and she said, Let’s let’s do this So I took it over. And as you may know, she went on to then build capital campaign, uh, toolkit with Amy Eisenstein. That’s been another great thing in the field. Yeah, so I took it over in, uh, 2013 and have spent the last seven years really developing the styles. Everything from the iconography you see now Thio the application of the styles in many ways, and I’ve got done trainings across the country and lots of conferences that are mostly for staff. And interestingly, I’m now circling back to board. And I’m doing a lot of board work, a lot of board trainings. And out of that came this idea that my second book should really be focused on board. When I started, it was pre now with this and and the the additional complications of being the board member and of running a non profit in many ways, they asking styles or even more important, because boards have to be at their best. In order for the organizations to survive, everyone has to be at the table. Helping to build resource is and everyone has to work together in a collegial way that create some synergy and makes everyone feel like they’re part of a team. And it’s hard to get to know board members anyway, when all you do is meet every two months for two hours and maybe you’re in a committee or two and that those meet once in a while. Now it’s all by zoom. Everyone’s overwhelmed zoomed out, and yet it’s more important than ever for people who feel their team and you have new board members I’ve seen. I’ve been delighted to see a number of announcements lately of organizations that have brought on new board members during this time, which is, you can imagine is challenging. You think of a board member coming thio their first board meeting, sitting in a room and getting to meet and experience other people and see how things really work. And now it’s all by zoom, which is much harder in a very different dynamic. So so, understanding the styles and how everyone interacts is even more important for on boarding a new board member. Look, you work, you get

[00:09:50.28] spk_1:
to recruit when we talk about recruitment to exactly but so Let Tze identify the styles. So you have things to spectrum. You got the analytic, intuitive spectrum, and you have the extrovert introvert spectrum. So if you know, put the extrovert introvert on the vertical and the analytic intuitive on the horizontal, you get four quadrants. So what are those? What are those for?

[00:10:14.26] spk_0:
Eso top left. You get the analytic extroverts. The rainmaker always goal oriented. Uh, driven, competitive. Keep their eye on the prize. Knows they’re succeeding based on the numbers, right? Did I reach this goal? Did I bring this money? Gets to to raise as much money. Then you have the intuitive extrovert top, right? The go getter, big vision thinker. Lots of energy brings people along with their enthusiasm on always sees the opportunities. So is bringing that big passion and excitement about the future. Anything’s possible. Then you have your intuitive introvert, your kindred spirit. Feelings oriented. I am primarily kindred spirit were our hearts on our sleeves. Everything is personal for us. No matter how hard we try to make it otherwise. And because we have that, uh, sense of sensitivity, we are sensitive to others. We tend to be very accommodating. We want other people to be heard and feel good and such. Also good skills for fundraising, different from the core rainmaker skills. And not to say a kindred spirit can’t be goal oriented. And a rainmaker can’t be compassionate and attentive on then mission controller. The analytic introvert bottom left. The Eagle Scout who always gets the job done. Very methodical, systematic plan ful and best at sitting back and listening and absorbing what’s happening. Great listener and observer, which, as we know, is so key to fundraising. So those the styles and they all complement each other and work well together can sometimes frustrate each other. But, um, but those are the styles,

[00:12:01.78] spk_1:
okay? And we each way each most likely have ah, primary and a secondary correct. So you’re you are kindred spirit and mission controller.

[00:12:13.21] spk_0:
Yeah, I am pure introvert. They which surprises people since I do so much public speaking and training. So people who know about the acting profession of lots of actors actually are shy or introverted, and you get in front of an audience and you do your thing.

[00:13:37.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help you build relationships with journalists because of a relationship built by turn to the New York community. Trust got to features in The Wall Street Journal. That’s what happens when you have the existing relationship. And then when you want to be heard, the newspapers, the outlets, they take your calls. But you gotta have the relationship set up ahead of time. That’s what turn to is gonna help you do build those relationships. They specialize in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Pan A. Pento, was an editor at The Chronicle of Philanthropy. The right turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to boards and asking styles. Perfect example of that. Aside from Brian Saber, uh, I’m seeing a lot of interviews with Sasha Baron Cohen because he has a Borat sequel out, and he has said, I’ve read it in online and I saw an interview with him. Eso he said a couple times. He’s primarily a shy, shy guy, but you know, he has characters who are obviously grandstanding. No, it alls, you know, it’s off, but s Oh, absolutely, And I and you people can go to asking matters dot com and you could find out which one of these you are right. You right. You could just do three minute little three minute quiz or so right?

[00:14:03.18] spk_0:
Exactly. Thank you. Yeah. You want it to be true. False questions. True. False? Yes. No, you know.

[00:14:10.12] spk_1:
And you The site admonishes us. Don’t spend a lot of time e I already did it. I didn’t just do it last night knowing we’re gonna prepare. I already know that. I’m, uh I’m primarily a kindred spirit as well. By birth. I’m a kindred spirit by birth but a go getter by practice and

[00:14:28.55] spk_0:
teach your primarily kindred spirits secondarily. Go getter.

[00:14:31.79] spk_1:
Yeah, secondary. Go get e No. Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:34.64] spk_0:
Pure, pure. Intuitive is what it’s saying. Massive, intuitive. Yeah, a lot of gut on the idea. Not a lot of planning percent. That’s a problem. A problem you got a plan ful person to about right? Yeah,

[00:14:49.44] spk_1:
I know. Now we need all four. But that’s why that’s why I’m not on any boards. Just do it. We’ll look back in six months.

[00:14:57.59] spk_0:
I’m not on any boards either. As a matter of fact, it seems it feels like a busman’s holiday to me. And I’m going when they’re gonna want me to fundraise. Andi. I’m not a big process person. Like go getters are much more into process. So Andre and I, over the years had to figure this out because she was pure process. Idi ated out loud, you know, lots of ideas. She could sit for hours and my eyes would plays over like I can be very cut to the chase. The Mission Control. Okay, let’s just do it. Let’s just lay it out. Let’s just get to the details and do it. And we finally realized that our meetings could only be a certain length of time. And I say all that because that been a challenge for me, with boards and any groups at all where I’m sitting there and I’m a little impatient, like Okay, let’s I just want to move to the next thing. I don’t want everyone talking and processing. I’m happy to go with someone else’s idea. Let’s just move it along. Three.

[00:15:52.31] spk_1:
Our brainstorm session is such a three hour brainstorm session is such a bore?

[00:15:57.24] spk_0:
E identified something in the 1st 10 minutes way Had something in the 1st 10 minutes. What? What did you say? Say it again the idea seemed pretty good to me exactly three

[00:16:11.09] spk_1:
hours ago. We could’ve had lunch and dinner by now.

[00:16:13.21] spk_0:
Exactly. Caught a good movie and come back just for the conclusion. First

[00:16:27.74] spk_1:
it sounded pretty good to me. Oh, right. Exactly. Contrary. Thio Brainstorming ideation session. All right, so, um all right, so let’s apply this to the board. So, as you had said, it helps if we know who is what. What is who on the board. What do we have? Do we have a imbalance of rainmakers and no process people to back them up, you know? Right. So we need tohave way. Need to have a balance,

[00:19:11.44] spk_0:
right? I mean, think of any planning session. Let’s let’s say you’ve got right now. There’s so many issues nonprofits, air facing. So let’s say it’s an issue of Well, what programming do we go forward with knowing that the current conditions are going to probably last into next summer? Okay, let’s make that assumption is aboard. Here we are. What are we going to do? Is an organization so the rainmaker is going to say Okay, well, what’s the goal? Right? What’s the goal of all of this? What outcomes. Do we want what we want to? Um, you know, we want to maintain We want Thio, serve our clients as well as we can. We want to stay fiscally responsible that then you have the go getter. Who’s saying the visionary who saying, Well, this could be the opportunity to pivot right opportunities, not problems, solutions, not problems. Let’s think out of the box. This could be the chance. We were looking for the kindred spirit. The very heart oriented person is saying, Well, we can’t forget the clients. We can’t forget the staff, you know, we need to you know, it’s really important that we come through for everyone, whether it makes the most financial sense or long term sense or not. And the Mission Control is saying Okay, great. I agree that we have that goal. I agree. You know, we could be something different. I agree. We have to care about people. But how are we going to get it done? It has to be realistic. And you can see where If you have an entire board of one or the other, you’re you can’t get the work done, right? Right. You need someone to check what you’re doing. We all need checks and balances and we need different voices. So once you look at the style so that you can see where if you’re going to do strategic planning, you need to have the four styles around the table to come out with a strong plan. Otherwise, you’re gonna have a plan that’s missing either the goal and outcomes or the big picture or the heart or the structure. And then and then you’ve got to fund. Then you’ve gotta work your way back into it Too late. Okay, way made a plan. But now Wow. Turns out we don’t know how toe executed because we didn’t have any mission controllers in the group or, you know, we didn’t think big enough. We went right into the weeds because we didn’t have our visionary in the group and so forth. So

[00:19:39.34] spk_1:
let’s talk about recruitment. If we’re, uh we’re gonna bring folks onto the board. Uh, you want this to be one of the factors I mean, there, there, obviously, you know, we need accountants. Maybe, you know, whatever. Whatever skill sets, you have gaps. And of course, those those really are predominant in your board selection. But you’d love for folks to find out what these potential board members asking styles are. Yes. So send them toe asking matters dot com as your recruiting them.

[00:19:44.29] spk_0:
Yeah, right. Wait three

[00:19:46.87] spk_1:
minutes. They print the report. Okay,

[00:20:13.04] spk_0:
Sorry. We don’t want you any go getters by you know, the reality for almost every night fucking is. We don’t get to pick and choose that much when we’re looking for board members. So some organizations really can. Others, at the very least, though, can say, Okay, we’re looking at our board, and we really seem to be missing kindred spirits. That’s bad. So lets

[00:20:15.89] spk_1:
you gotta have your You gotta have your kindred spirits. That’s

[00:20:18.26] spk_0:
bad. Absolutely. Eso eso when we go out, let’s keep that in mind, right, Because we might have more candidates and way might have more candidates, and we could put on in any one point. We might be bringing people on in classes, and we might want this first class to include another kindred spirit or two, and we might put off other people for a year. So it’s another factor. It’s not just a factor in who to choose, but how to understand who you’re choose, right? How to understand maybe what they’re saying and where they’re coming from. And to be ableto envision how that person would interact on the board, given that person style and the style of the board to get a sense of whether the person fits in or how the person would fit in. So it it not only helps you choose but helps you understand what you’re

[00:21:20.83] spk_1:
and you may not have. As you said, you may not have the luxury of selecting from half a dozen, you know, potential board members. So at least the one person that is before you know what his or her style is. And, as you said, how they’ll how they’ll work with the rest of the board. Right? Okay, okay. And and this applies for the for the CEO to write mean CEO board chair relationship. Don’t we want to know where those were? Those two folks stand

[00:21:40.34] spk_0:
right? I mean, you’re not going to choose one based on their style, but based on their style that they’re going to have different strengths and challenges and in their in their roles as the two leaders and in terms of how they work together. Because you, if you’ve gotto generally, the CEO is reporting to the board share most regularly. If the relationships going well, they’re meeting regularly. The chair is, in a way, guiding the CEO. The CEO is guiding the chair, Um, and so if you’ve got a chair, who’s a go getter and you have a CEO who’s a mission controller, especially when you have people who are diagonal to each other on the grid? Okay, who are you might call them polar opposites. There could be a challenge working together. One wants all this detail, the others flying by the seat of their pants. Ones, you know, very sensitive to criticism. The others just throwing it out there, vice.

[00:22:50.24] spk_1:
Because because if there if there, uh, diagonal diagonal to each other, then you’ve got You’ve got an intuitive extrovert. Uh, no. An intuitive introvert working with an analytical extrovert,

[00:23:15.24] spk_0:
right? I know. As a kindred spirit, intuitive introvert, that rainmakers, thes analytic extroverts can challenge me. I can get a little anxious because they’re very assertive. And for may I read assertive sometimes to personally, they’re not doing anything wrong, right? They’re just they’re being themselves. They’re bringing certain traits to the table, and I’m reading them a certain ways of kindred spirits. So now if I know, uh, this is why we might be having that challenge. We could talk it through and and at least understand each other better, like in any relationship. Um, in any personal friend relationship, any relationship, understanding the other person helps you depersonalize what’s happening.

[00:25:34.41] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Tony is take two. I’ve got a webinar coming up It is. Start your plan. Giving in 2021. It’s a quick shot is gonna be just 50 minutes in and out. We’re gonna talk about what plan giving is how to identify your best prospects, where to start your plan giving program, how to market and promote your new program. And then I’m gonna leave plenty of time to answer your questions, which actually is my favorite and arguably the most important thing. Getting your questions answered. So there’s plenty of time for that. That’s it. Join me. It’s Thursday, November 19th, three o’clock Eastern time, which means two o’clock central, which means one o’clock mountain, which means noontime Pacific. No discrimination here by time zone. I do not discriminate against time zones. Everybody’s everybody’s. Everybody’s got a time. That’s the way it is. So, uh, quick shot. How to start your plan? Giving or start your plan giving start your plan to giving in 2021. You sign up for the webinar at planned giving accelerator dot com slash webinar. I hope you’ll be with me. That is, tony is take two. We’ve got plenty of more time for boards and asking styles You have, ah, formula. I don’t want to scare. People were math, math phobic, but very simple formula. You say teamwork plus camaraderie equals synergy. Yes, what’s behind that involved? There’s no there’s no regression analysis. You don’t have to know absolutely sine or cosine or tangent or or anything

[00:25:34.89] spk_0:
like that. Absolutely nothing. I was thinking. I was trying to think through as I was developing this book, what I wanted to say and why. And I came up with that, that that having the best board a board that really is on fire, if you will to me involved, uh, involves two things or is dependent on two things one teamwork, the ability teamwork is respecting everyone being able to hear other voices, uh, respecting decisions that come out of committee and so forth, respecting everyone sitting around the table and having an equal voice and things like that. That’s teamwork. And, um uh, Michael Davidson who? I do a lot of work with his quote in the book. He’s

[00:26:25.70] spk_1:
He’s been on the show

[00:26:26.81] spk_0:
e adore Michael and I’ve learned so much about governance from him over the last two decades. I’ve known him actually about almost 20 years because we met at Hudson Guilt. He was doing work for them, and I was working for them. Uh, and he talks about teamwork a lot because he’s a rower, as you know, and you have to be a strong team, you’re not gonna get anywhere.

[00:26:52.84] spk_1:
His company logo is is a right right,

[00:27:25.04] spk_0:
the board coach and it’s rowing and he talks about so he talks about teamwork. He talks about how you can do your job. If you don’t know what it is, you won’t do it. If you don’t think everyone else is doing it right, you have to be a team. It’s one of the reasons why I think everyone has to fundraise on the board because that’s what makes the strongest fundraising team. Not having a fundraising committee and saying over those five people are responsible for all the fundraising board is going to dio, so teamwork is very important and camaraderie. You also have to like each other not to be friends, but to you need to find it worth being in someone else’s company. And even if someone is very different from U. S. O. U. And that comes from getting to know people, not Onley sitting around the board table. But in a more familial way, it’s That’s the reason why some of these social engagements just before, after a board meeting, having board members go out to dinner together. All of that is really important. That’s why they do it in the corporate world, right? That’s why there are all these team building events. They build camaraderie, not just on the camaraderie helps the team work. But

[00:28:08.93] spk_1:
I don’t have Thio build the comrade. I don’t have to walk across hot coals barefoot

[00:29:29.74] spk_0:
E No, I wouldn’t do that either way. Okay? Yeah, No way could just have dinner together. We can have dinner together at one organization. I I had. I had board members in rotating groups of 4 to 6 go to dinner after a board meeting. So there were six board meetings during the year and twice a year each board member went out with a different group of people. So everyone got to have dinner with everyone during the year and such. It helped, Um, so when so looking at the asking styles, you can understand better how to work as a team. And you can also understand what, what types of activities would help build camaraderie? Because we’re all not going to like the same things. I, as a kindred spirit, don’t want to go to a big party with the whole board. I’d much rather go to a small dinner or just have a one on one coffee, right? If I could do that with a few board members, over time, I’m golden. I build that relationship if you send me Thio. The board president’s house to schmooze with all the other board members doesn’t work as well for me. Given my style, it doesn’t mean you don’t do it, but just a ZX with training and other things, you have to have a variety of activities to appeal to everyone. Just like you have to let people have a variety of stories to tell their own stories because everyone’s gonna go to tell the different ones. So eso building camaraderie, um, you do have to proactively work it. It part of that it overlaps both is making sure everyone has a voice right that everyone feels they are part of this group, that they’re integral to it, that people hear them see them. And so it goes back and forth, the teamwork and the Senate and the camaraderie. And that’s what gives you the synergy. So that’s how I came up with that concept. Okay? Yes. Okay.

[00:30:38.54] spk_1:
You you talk about Well, actually, before we talk about some process for meetings like making sure voices get heard, you have some concrete ideas. How about a story? Can you, uh, can you share something? In the 20 years of asking styles where you’ve seen a team, whether board or not, I mean, board would be ideal improve their outcomes because they became asking styles aware they became they were red pilled and finally e saw the saw the wisdom of asking styles.

[00:32:40.04] spk_0:
Wow, we’re going there. You? Mm. Well, I constantly hear stories. There’s someone on the website I often hear from from executive director slash CEOs who have these ah ha moments about their board chairs for sure who have these Ah ha moment about their boards, Whose then see the challenge, why their board is so challenged in some way and can address that. Who? Who realized g. I’m providing staff often say I’ve given the board all this information. I don’t know what why they why they keep asking the truth of matter is have they read it all? And if they’ve read it, have they interpreted it all and stuff? And the truth that matter is that we’re not necessarily giving every board member the information they need. So I constantly hear these ah ha moments from staff who say, Now I know what this board member needs. If I’m going to engage this board member effectively in fundraising, this is what I have to give this board member. I’m giving them the wrong information. So I hear that a lot that that has really helped. I did some work with Esperanza Academy, which is a private 100% tuition free and privately funded girl school north of Boston. Um, it might be in Lowell. I’m trying to remember where they are now. On. I worked with their head of development and then did a training herself and said it was extraordinary how how the asking styles moved her board ahead. There was a fundraising in terms of working with each other. It just took it, took them to, Ah, a whole new level. And I think I’ve always felt the beauty of the styles is that she point before you don’t have to know any big logarithms. There’s no jargon or anything. It’s very simply put, e don’t use fund these words and and all of this stuff e talk very plainly about it in the styles are very plain. I don’t try to make this scene like, uh, you know, like the you know, what is it? The theory of relativity, The theory of relativity.

[00:33:20.95] spk_1:
That’s where you get into cosign on C can’t

[00:33:23.16] spk_0:
exactly or pie or whatever Very straight

[00:33:27.13] spk_1:
first, unjust non jargon.

[00:33:29.54] spk_0:
Yeah. And so yes, so tons of ah ha moments. Um uh, respecting people to work with each other differently, working harder to make sure all voices are heard. Um uh,

[00:33:43.66] spk_1:
let’s pick up on that. Voices are heard. You have some. As I was saying, you have some concrete ideas about board meetings, making sure some folks you gotta check with them in advance, etcetera. So what? Her voices get heard at board meetings,

[00:34:04.24] spk_0:
Right? Well, I, for one, virtually never talk in a large group as a kindred spirit of mission controllers Air similar. I don’t often give my opinion in front of a large group. I don’t often ask a question. I don’t take up a lot of time in a group like that. Um, so I might have a very valid and important point that the group needs to hear that the chair wants everyone to hear. And I’m simply not going to express it in the group. And you see the people I trigger. I train all the time. You have guests all the time. You know which guests you have thio work harder, thio, or give the or wait longer to allow them to pull their thoughts together. That’s happening around the board table. And it’s happening even more so now with the video that with Zoom because everyone does tend to talk over each other. It’s hard to know when to stop. It’s harder than it was in person. Looking around the room where you feel it, you feel who’s going to talk next, Right here. You’re not sure. And then two or three people blurt out at the same time. So someone like me is going to be even less likely to participate because that blurting out and talking over someone is more awkward for me. Yeah, so

[00:35:20.44] spk_1:
you get into that rhythm where everybody stops on, then you beats and everybody talks. Everybody stops to more beats everybody, you go ahead. So then they all go ahead to beats later, right? Yeah.

[00:35:31.89] spk_0:
Dance, right. It’s a and I’m not going to do that dance. Necessarily. A lot of people won’t. So So if

[00:35:42.34] spk_1:
I promise that I won’t be, uh, talking over you, I’m just being a smart ass.

[00:35:46.35] spk_0:
Me to s o a chair. A smart chair who really wants everyone’s voice heard and taken into account needs to either reach out to those board members in advance and solicit their opinion or specifically call on them, make time for them right When I train, I look around that room and we’ll actually in advance of training. I will ask the CEO or whoever engaged me. Who should I be watching out for in one way or another who’s going to talk too much? And I’ve got to make sure that person doesn’t monopolize, are training who’s not going to talk because And regardless of what I’m told in advance, I see who’s not participating and I make sure everyone’s participating. It’s not that they don’t want to, or that they don’t have anything to say. It’s just that this is a tough venue for them. Be in a room with 25 other people and all the noise and people talking over each other. So you either have to solicited in advance or solicited in the room or solicited afterwards or send out a questionnaire, asked people by email to tell you in advance, you have to make sure that everyone’s voice is heard,

[00:37:12.83] spk_1:
and that’s a part of teamwork and camaraderie to ZX respect. Yes, yeah, that you’ve become aware. Now you’re red pilled. You know, some people are not gonna speak at the meeting or being very. It’s gonna be uncomfortable for them to do it. You have to make allowance for that. And that s so that builds up your That builds up teamwork and camaraderie. People feel respected there, literally being heard

[00:37:51.73] spk_0:
right now. Some people just, you know, talk a lot and don’t mean to cut anyone else off and want to hear the voice. And then there’s some people who just want to hear their own voice. And actually, one of the pieces of board membership is it’s not for everyone. You have to believe in teamwork. You have to believe that the team comes first. I’m not saying that the styles in any way can identify who would want to be on a team or not, because it’s much more complicated than that. But but there are challenges to group work, and those challenges impact certain styles more than others,

[00:38:12.92] spk_1:
Right? So yeah. All right, let’s talk about fundraising. How does this out of the styles impact board? Fundraising? Yes.

[00:40:53.41] spk_0:
So that we’re working on the whole decade, obviously. Uh, yes. Since they asking style started from a fundraising bend. It’s a very critical ways. The first one which we talked about earlier which is the number one way, is in terms of the story that each board member is going to tell. What is a board member going to stay in the in the most? In the simplest format, you run into someone, and the person said, Well, tell me about X y Z organization. What is it? You is a board member going to say to try to excite that person? What’s your story that is going to be impacted by your style? Whether, as we talked about it, whether it’s very goal on, strategy oriented, visionary oriented, hard oriented plan oriented? Okay, then you have Well, how is each of you going to go about this process of identifying and cultivating and maybe asking for money? And I say, maybe asking because the most important roles Board member, the most important role of board member can have in fundraising in my mind is the identifying, cultivating, thanking, recognizing piece everything but the ask. When it comes to the ask, some board members will ask on their own or with other board members. But in most organizations, you could bring the executive director and head of fundraising or someone else, to sit there in the room with you and actually say, tony, would you consider a gift of $10,000 for X y Z? Um, it’s all the other work that’s so important Thio for board members to help with. And that’s where style really matters. How are you going about going to go about cultivating as a board member? What’s comfortable for you? You have to take into account to some extent what what works for the donor? We don’t know. We usually don’t know the donor style, but if we don’t ask board members to do things they’re comfortable with, they’re going to be reticent about doing them. And they may not do them well, right? Well, I don’t want I don’t want to send my board members out out to slaughter, basically, by sending them out to do things they won’t do well and it doesn’t serve the organization well, so eso I will would think through if I have ah, big special event. My extroverted board members ago ended be better ambassadors of those events than the introverts who don’t tend to go up to people they don’t know and engage them in such. They’re going to be better at one on one effort. Uhh. Some people are going to be better at communication written communication, writing lovely emails with lots of great information in them. Some are going to be better at picking up the phone and having a quick chat on dhe. People will partner in different ways based on their styles.

[00:41:41.91] spk_1:
Time for our last break dot drives that drives engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives is the simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. It’s customizable, collaborative, intuitive. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships, get the free demo for listeners is also a three month. You know that you go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. We’ve got but loads more time for boards and asking styles.

[00:43:06.10] spk_0:
So if I would like, um uh, I have a donor in mind and I bring something. The table is the CEO or the chief fundraiser, a za kindred spirit. I may look around to see who compliments me on the board, right? Or if I’m let’s say I someone has a relationship, OK, Soo is a go getter, and Sue has a relationship to this donor, so I want to go with Sue? Well, I’m a kindred spirit and Susan go getter and whoa! It turns out that our donor is a mission controller. So now how am I going to engage? So what is the best role for Sue? Is the go getter to play? And what might we have to watch out for? Right? How would we wanna make sure Sue doesn’t trip over herself? A za go getter going with me to see a mission controller? So it gives me a road map as the staff member, or certainly is the board members to how I could be effective, what my challenges might be. Even in the initial contact, we talked about this all the time of asking matters that from kindred spirits and mission controllers are much less likely to just pick up the phone and call someone out of the blue, even if it’s just calling to make an appointment. I don’t I never liked the phone, and I feel lucky that most of my career has been in the age of email. I will almost always email first if I know. I don’t know. Well, and I know the donor just wants me to call It is different, but most of the time we don’t know who. Uh, we don’t We don’t know people that well and I’m going to I’m going to write first by email. And if I know a board members that way, I’m not gonna push my board member to pick up the phone. I’m going to say, Do what’s comfortable for you If it’s comfortable to send an email, Do that. If you know the person well enough to send a text and the text. If calling and trying to catch that person is what works for you do that, so I help the asking styles help bring fundraising to the board member in a way that’s palatable.

[00:44:01.99] spk_1:
Got some ideas about you. Caption it. Under keeping board members committed, exposing board members to program Share your ideas there.

[00:44:57.99] spk_0:
Most board members do not experience or or view programming often enough. Board members come to organization excited by what you’re doing. They have a lot of passion. Yeah, I’m on the board now. I’m so committed. I love what you do and then end up spending almost all their time in board meetings that are mostly about procedure and budget and can be very dry the most organizations today or bringing program staff for program participants to board meetings on a regular basis. I hope everyone listening today is doing that, and so board members get some exposure the 10 or 15 minutes every two months. But that’s minimal. Board members have to C programming ideally, in person right now. That’s really hard. Maybe through zoom through video, maybe through a Q and A with various program directors and such. And again, the asking styles will impact what type of interaction will keep board members committed. So if I want to keep my mission controller board member committed, I need to keep focusing on the plans and making sure the board that board member feels good that we’re going about our work in a very methodical, systematic, well thought out way. That’s what and to share all the information about plans because the Michigan that that is the material that the Mission controller board member can absorb and appreciate. I’m not gonna do that for the go getter. The go getter isn’t gonna look at those plans, right? The go getter is gonna wanna have a telephone call with the program director with a or Or meet lots of participants and engage those participants and maybe participate in programs, whereas some people might feel it a little awkward to do that, the go getter will jump right in. So for my go get a board member, I might do that for my rainmaker. You know, a ZX. You can see the same themes keep coming up with this idea of strategy, vision, heart and plan strategy, vision hardened plan. So you got it. You have to bring that to each board member and then bring that into the It’s the meeting.

[00:46:43.30] spk_1:
I would rather you say the heart first. Uh, that’s the kindred spirits. I’ll fix it in post production. I’ll move.

[00:46:55.26] spk_0:
You do that. You do that. The only way I can always keep everything straight is to always go go clockwise. Yeah, no matter what I do, I’m always saying Rainmaker, go Gator. Kindred spirit, Mission Control and using my hands to remind me now that everything is vision is Elektronik. I’ve actually the vision. The image is reversed on the screen. And now that ever you could see my hands, I’ve had to learn like yoga, teachers and others. Yes, you gotta be. Oh, right. Yeah, exactly. So it’s a new skill I’ve learned the last seven months

[00:47:23.99] spk_1:
you’ve got. You’ve got the benefit of no video here. Yeah,

[00:47:26.58] spk_0:
exactly. Like my hands doing anything.

[00:47:34.08] spk_1:
Audio podcast. Yes. Mm. Alright, What else? What else do you wanna? You wanna talk about that? We haven’t talked about around asking styles in the board

[00:47:39.82] spk_0:
asking styles. And

[00:47:41.33] spk_1:
you wrote a whole book, for God’s sake.

[00:47:42.97] spk_0:
Yeah, I can imagine

[00:47:43.91] spk_1:
more. There’s more than what I asked you what

[00:47:48.45] spk_0:
it is, though, you know, though, I don’t want to scare people off either. And as you know, tony, it’s not a big book, and it’s purposely not a big look. It’s actually only 16,000 words. If people know anything about books, it’s only 100 pages because there are lots of beautiful full color photos and graphs and things like that. It’s a book you can read in a two sitting,

[00:48:06.04] spk_1:
which I appreciate. I like all the photos, something the pictures I sometimes have authors on. I’ll say, you know, there’s no pictures or there’s not enough

[00:48:13.77] spk_0:
well in my books. The only book in full color. I want to say that cause I’m really proud of it. It costs a lot more to make it, but, uh, but the styles Aaron color right? The graphics are so so. It’s actually very pleasurable book. And the reason for that It’s really important for every board member to read it right.

[00:48:29.73] spk_1:
Easy read. Do it over a weekend easily. You could do it in a day if you had to, but yes, so we hope

[00:48:52.16] spk_0:
to say, you know, today we covered a lot of the major points in it, about about recruiting, camaraderie, teamwork, telling her story, leadership and such. Those are the major piece in the book. The one thing I’ll say is that you’re pushing the book, I guess, is that it has a bunch of exercises and questions to ask yourself is Well, and the important thing is not is not to believe that G if I if I’m going to address the challenges on my board, it’s got to be some big project I need to bring in a consultant or boy, this is gonna be a lot of hard work. There are lots of small steps you can take.

[00:49:15.92] spk_1:
Yes, you finished the book with the next steps?

[00:50:03.86] spk_0:
Yes and yes. And all along the way there are some exercises the next time you have zoomed called do a breakout room and just ask. People spend five minutes saying, Okay, my style is this. What does that mean for how I work with you or something? You’re going to build teamwork and camaraderie. And so I want people to take away that that make improvements toe how your board operates, which is so vital to how your organization gets through this and thrives in the future. Uh, does not have to be a big, overwhelming project through the asking styles and lots of other means. You can take small steps and get there. The

[00:50:08.46] spk_1:
book is a pleasure. It’s a pleasurable pleasure to read. It’s an easy read. You want to know your style. You goto asking matters dot com. Do the three minute survey. Send your board members as a little fun exercise chat about it. That’s you know, that could be a next step, but

[00:50:18.71] spk_0:
absolutely that

[00:50:24.46] spk_1:
a whole chapter of next steps and, like you said questions throughout. Okay, Brian Saber, Thank you very much. Uh, have you. Actually, Absolutely. So the book. Get the book. There is more depth. There is more depth in those 16,000 words than than a lackluster host can cover with, even with an exemplary guest. Eso. The book is boards and asking styles. A roadmap to success matters that asking matters dot com and Brian is at Brian Saber and Brian. Thank you again. Real pleasure. Thank

[00:50:52.97] spk_0:
you. Don’t have a great day. Good luck to everyone.

[00:51:31.56] spk_1:
Thank you Next week next week. I got it here right next week is Oh yes, next week is low cost fundraising software and what’s really happening with non profit revenue. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com. Responsive by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives, raise more money, changed more lives tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and a free month for listeners. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, you with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. Remember, it’s your favorite abdominal podcast. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 20, 2019: Wounded Charity

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Doug White: Wounded Charity
Author and consultant Doug White returns with his latest book, “Wounded Charity,” positing that the 2016 allegations against Wounded Warrior Project were mostly untrue and that the organization’s board failed. Join us for a provocative and thoughtful analysis.

 

 

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Transcript for 458_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190920.mp3.mp3 Processed on: 2019-09-20T19:10:34.517Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…09…458_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190920.mp3.mp3.868378293.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/09/458_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190920mp3.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I turn drama Tropic if you unnerved me with the idea that you missed today’s show. Wounded Charity author and consultant Doug White returns with his latest book, Wounded Charity, positing that the 2016 allegations against Wounded Warrior Project were mostly untrue and that the organization’s board failed. And the media. Oi Doug brings a provocative and thoughtful analysis on Tony’s take to take caution in your plan. E-giving relationships Responsive by witness E. P. A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Witnessed gps dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. What a pleasure to welcome back to the studio. It’s good to be Don’t wait. Yes, he’s the author, teacher and advisor, two nonprofit organizations and philanthropists. He’s said he’s the soul. That’s the only part they want occupying those three those three categories. He’s co chair of the full proof foundations Walter Cronkite Project Committee and a governing boardmember of the Secular Coalition of America. He’s the former director of Columbia University’s master of science in fund-raising management program. Before that, he was academic director at New York University’s heimans Center for Philanthropy and fund-raising. That’s where we first met. His latest book is Wounded Charity. Lessons Learned From the Wounded Warrior Project Crisis will be published early October, and that’s what brings him back to non-profit radio. Welcome back as I say, It’s good to see you again. A pleasure. You’re our first live guest in our new studio. I can smell the paint. I can t o and the elevators better intoxicating. The elevator is bigger. There’s more than one, and it’s you. It sounds different to me. Uh, we got it. We got to get some things up on the wall, but it feels good. Just welcome to the new space. Well, thank you. It’s good to be a part of it. Um, yeah. Wounded warrior project. Very interesting. You’re You uncover some things that a lot of people do not know. Um, and you say that you’re actually you’re offended, Earl. I think early in the book you say that you’re offended by what happened to Wounded Warrior Project. The reaction that the board had you took offense at this. I did. But not at first. Because when you hear something on CBS or read something in The New York Times, you tend to think it’s true. And before I go too far, I want to make sure that people know that I like CBS News. I like most of the networks and I think the world of The New York Times. But this is a story that they got wrong and it was egregiously wrong and upon having learned what did happen, I am offended. I’m offended by the lack of journalistic standards. I’m offended by the way the board behaved. And every time I ask somebody about this story, did you hear about what happened to a wounded warrior project? I’ll have reactions to Oh, that’s that fake charity. That’s the charity spent all the money wrong, and I say, Where did you hear that? And of course, he’ll tell me where they didn’t. Of course, that’s where thatwas the times and CBS. But then I say there is more to that story and most of what you know is wrong. More to it. You. Ah, Now, at the end, you call it a long, long, nurturing hit job. A long, marinating hit job That would be the freezer. Long magnetic it job is the phrase you Yes, way Have a full hour together. So we have plenty time. Thio flush this out. But say little about long marinating the two people who were fired the CEO and CEO Steve Nord Easy and Al Giordano were fired in March will probably do a CZ. We go forward with the story of this, but they were fired in March of 2016 after scathing reports out by CBS and The New York Times. And it would be easy to think then, logical to think that as a result of those reports, the board looked at their leadership and said, we’re going in the wrong direction. It is my opinion that that decision was made well before those reports came out. Now. Yeah. Okay. We’re gonna get to that. All right. Wonderful. Um So the claims in the media were were scathing money wasted on travel and entertainment costs were too high. Morale was low. Programs failing. Um, some watchdogs, charity navigator and charitywatch, specifically low grades. Um, yes, this was This was all January 2016 a CZ you’ve said New York Times and CBS, but not in that order. Give us Give that what happened at CBS and then The New York Times And what was said I was home about nine o’clock on Tuesday night the 26th of January and enjoying my, I think, second bourbon when I got a text from a good friend of mine and someone you may know to Laura Fredericks. Oh, sure texted me and said, Did you see what CBS said about Wounded Warrior Project? And she’s also on the board off another veteran’s organization. So she’s tuned into these kinds of things, and I said, No, I hadn’t. So I looked it up and watched it, and I thought, Wow, this is Ah, pretty scathing report because it said that they were spending money badly, that morale was bad and everything you’ve just mentioned. And I thought this sounds like something I would be interested in because, as you know, with other books, another work that I’ve done. I’ve been very critical of charities because I don’t think charity should be badly run. I think they should be well run by people who care about the work they do and having a charitable ethos. And so I’m my intent are up when it comes to bad behavior charities. And so I thought, Well, this is just another example of that because I had no contact with Wounded Warrior Project Before this time, however, I had contact with a reporter of The New York Times about six or maybe four weeks prior. I had been called by day Phillips, who ended up doing this report about Wounded Warrior project, and at that point I knew nothing more than what was publicly available. You know, the information that was publicly available on nine nineties and other reports, and basically his take with our conversation, which, by the way, lasted about an hour or an hour and 15 minutes. What is the ethos behind an organization that is, that is growing so quickly? Is there a problem with that? Inherently. What about their programs? And all I could speak to was with what I knew publicly, and it was all very positive. I said, I get it That that there are criticisms. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying they’re perfect, but I can’t see anything wrong with them. We ended that I think on a fairly good note. And I had no clue that he was working on this kind of a story. And I’ll tell you this much at that point, I don’t think he waas right. You think he changed his slant of the story when CVS came out with what you saw, I well, they knew CBS was coming. I mean, what happened was that Tuesday night, I knew it was gonna be a three part series on CBS. I wanted I did, right? Dave Phillips. And I said, Are you aware that CBS now has this big story scooping you? Yeah. And so I thought, this is not good. My answer came the next boarding When I read the New York Times when that story was in the New York Times above the front page above the fold. That’s correct. Now what? So I was curious about this. Why would the times if if you’re right, why would they slant the story because of what? Because of the direction CBS took. Why couldn’t they take their own tack if they were Maur? If you felt that Dave Phillips was Maur neutral about about wounded warrior, Yeah, and I think in the long haul of things I want to be gentle with Dave Phillips because I don’t think he’s the bad guy here. And I think I know he’s a very good reporter. I think what he had was what I call an evergreen story. It was not something that had a deadline to it nearly did, by the way, the CBS take have a deadline to it. But it was much more salaciousness. And so I think he tried to catch up to that salaciousness. That’s what I think happened. But he wasn’t finding that. And you don’t You don’t pursue this in the book. But it was a question I had. He wasn’t finding that in his You don’t think in his in his own in his own research, not originally. But then he got talking to people who are on a Facebook page. We’re all malcontents, former employee employees. And so he got inside the second chamber and listen to it after a while. And when he went down to wounded warrior project in Jacksonville, he had many interviews. Many of them were very positive in all of them. Got put on to the cutting room floor. So he at that point had shifted because CBS came into the picture late, like in December s so late, 2015. And so I think he had timeto switch gears. Okay, we have Thio take a first break, and that is for Wagner. CPS. They have a wagon or on September 25th Exempt or non exempt. You need to classify and pay everyone correctly under the Fair Labor Standards Act. And you need to document what you’re doing. Wepner will explain it so you can understand it. Weather cps dot com Click Resource is and upcoming events. If you missed it, live so many of our podcast listeners. I can understand that. Then go to re sources and recorded events. All right, let’s go back to ah, wounded charity. Um, so he so he caught up with the salacious side of it. All right, I’m still alright. This Yeah, There was the malcontent employees Echo chamber. All right, so Wonder Warrior Christ Wounded Warrior Project now has a crisis. There was a three part series on CBS over what, Over two nights a night the next morning of the following night. Oh, that’s right there and one in the morning and then the following night. And they’ve got this New York Times with peace. Which came the guest, the 27th of January. What is the board do? The board hires Simpson Thatcher law firm here and a group called FT I, which is accounting firm to do an audit of the organization’s finances. They did that almost immediately, probably within a few hours of the reports coming out because they wanted to find out what was going on with regard to the accusations that money was being misspent. They also at the same time silenced the CEO. Stephen aren’t easy stating our Daisy is a pretty savvy guy. Probably one of the better CEOs. What was his age at this point? Him and al what were their ages? They’re not really young, but they’re not old. I would say they’re probably in their fifties. Okay? Yeah, something normal helps me on. I think they’re about the same age they came through the world with the veterans world. Kind of the same time. At any rate, um, they were told they couldn’t talk to anybody. And Steve actually was very media savvy and good person in many ways said to the board, This is not the right strategy, because we’re gonna be out there hanging without any story. And we’re not even responding. He wants to get ahead of it. He wants to get ahead of grab it. Yes, like you would advise your own clients to do in an emergency. Silence is bad because the story takes story goes on without you. The stood out without your part of it. Well said, Well, that didn’t happen. And so he was muzzled. Reinardy xero Steve. Not easy as a CEO. Yes, Al Al Giordano CEO. Yes, two Italians. But what you didn’t pursue the Italian American discrimination pathway into this thing? These two, these two screaming Italians nor D. C. And Giordano railroaded by the board. You didn’t pursue that? You know, you’re the Italian American sentiment on the warrior project. Most of the lack of intellectual curiosity. Okay, I’ll help you. Thank you. Bring me in. Silences them now I had another something curious CBS offers. Did he say? Nor Deasy or not? D. C Easy, easy. Okay, The proper princessa Ditzy what? You wouldn’t zizi like brothers pizza? You don’t say Pisa pizza. Nor did Marty Martin, yet martignetti CBS offers, nor D z Rebuttal time. They offer him substantial time on a morning some on one of their morning shows with Formerly With Charlie Rose. Why did they do? And they say And they say in the email Ah, lot of time like we usually give guests three minutes, we’ll give you twice that or something like that and we’ll be willing to talk about other opportunities for you to be on CBS on other shows. Why did they offer that? Did they sense that that they had something wrong? Oh, I know they sensed they had something wrong. I mean, there’s nothing that says it on paper to my knowledge, but there could not be any other conclusion after watching this. And also there were people who talk to Gil. There were some internal e mails from internal emails that I was able to put my hands on that showed that there was something really wrong here. Why would CBS offer them or offer Steve This? This could have been an effort on their part to kind of come clean. But Steve knew that this this was baked in already. I don’t feel like there was any any anything to gain by coming back and fighting that. Oh, I thought he would have taken the opportunity if the board had allowed him to. Oh, well, yeah, but the board didn’t allow him to write, so, you know, I don’t. And he’s been criticized. He’s been criticized for that, Uh, but he wasn’t allowed. You’re right. Now there’s a question. Uh, we could talk about this now. Sure should. Should he have or, you know, where do you, uh, ready to draw the line between obedience to the board and loyalty to the organization and say, Screw the board? I’m going ahead. That’s the last profound question that I asked in the book toward the end. And I think it’s an open ended question. I don’t know the answer to that. Boardmember has, ah duty of loyalty to the organization. Staff member has duties to both the organization and to the board. When you see that the board is going in a different direction. From where you see the organization going, you have a profound dilemma on your hands. One person was extremely critical of Steve for not bucking the board. I won’t use the language he gave me, but that language is in the book. But he said that Steve should have and Al should have buck them and gone public with everything they could at that time. And which person which questions that you know, that was quote okay. Yes, You have a lot, by the way. Lots of footnotes couldn’t you couldn’t have cut the footnotes down 370 foot notes. It’s really got to go to the back of the book all the time to see this. It means a substantial because I was taught in law school. You always read the footnotes. You know that the footnotes used to be in academia couldn’t put them at the bottom. It’s so much easier when they’re the bottom of the page. But that looks bad. People won’t read books like it looks like it. Then it looks like an academic journal. That’s yeah, and it’s important to may toe have these facts correct. And this is not true about a lot of things that are written in general. And so I want to be sure that especially in a situation like this and I was this way with the book on Princeton, too, wanted to make sure that everything that I said was backed up in people new words being backed up. In fact, just to go down that line for a minute. I do worry and always do worry about what I have an anonymous quote. I don’t want people to think I made it up. And so I’ve asked people, attorneys and other people in the world of ethics and non-profits. How do I make sure that people don’t think I did that? And there’s really no way. Just, you know, the authority is otherwise there, so they’re gonna have to take your word for it. It’s like the times when they come out with an anonymous source, got to take their word for it. But that means that eyes the author have to take a lot of responsibility and have a lot of integrity, or try to have integrity anyway in the process. That’s why you have the footnotes Okay. Okay. It’s a yes, I imagine you have. You have a spreadsheet somewhere that says anonymous quote. Footnote number 2 14 Is this person? Yes. Something like that. So, Yeah, I do. We do have to trust you, and your lawyers will never see it. I can tell you that no matter what you do. Okay? You’ve assured everyone a lien on it. All right? So now nor D. C. And reinardy, xero, Dizzy and Giordano, highly rated by the board before this before this occurred. Yes. Talk about that talk about and how wounded Warrior Project was doing. Let’s give them their due now. Wounded. Well, they don’t need their do now. They’re just They’ve always been a great organ. I meant now in the show. Oh, in the show. Just at this point in our time together. Let’s do it. Great organization. It grew from a fairly small organization in the early two thousands. John Milius started it with backpacks out of his basement to take up. He noticed that when he got out of being wounded, Hey, didn’t have any essentials like a toothbrush or a water bottle or things like that. He said I’m gonna put together backpacks and take him up to Walter Reed. He was in Virginia and give them a way. That was really the way it got started. And at the same time, because there was a fellow out in Long Island. Peter Hoener Camp was also concerned about veterans coming back. He started something called Soldier Ride on DDE that raised money for Wounded Warrior Project. So they began to make money a few years after John Milius started it for real. And when Steve and Al came into the scene to really become the leaders of the organization from a staff perspective, they started. They said What? I think all charities need to do more off. They said, What is our task here? And when they defined their task of taking care of veterans when they’re coming back from 9 11 posted an 11 conflict, the money that it would take would be X. And they said, Okay, we’re gonna go out and raise X. It wasn’t like, Okay, we’re gonna raise $1000 see what we can do. What they say. They had an entirely different mindset and a good one, but as you can imagine, Tony. It was somewhat in conflict with the way the mindset works at many charities. So the pursuit of the money became itself something controversial at anyway. They grew and grew, and by the time they left they were earning almost $400 million which is pretty big. They went from 10 to $400 million in a decade, basically, and they had 20 programs. All of them were working. They were quantifying their results and from a an impact respect of the big word today and non-profits his impact. They were already doing it. They were already doing it from a quantitative and qualitative perspective for for many years prior to this point, they were doing a good job, and I think they still are. The vision, I think is reduced, and it’s a smaller organization right now, but it’s still a good organization. I don’t want to say anything bad about the organization today, but it’s a different organization. And nor did see not Dizzy and Giordano, as I said, highly rated by the board. Okay, let me get back to that because you did ask that a few months before they left their ratings and by the way, there prior ratings were all consistent with this. We’re fabulous. They were great. And Steve said, Well, look now I think we ought to slow down and start to become a different kind of order. We are becoming a different kind of organization, so we need to look at it in a more sophisticated way. We’re going to slow down a little bit. We won’t be pushing the gas pedal is hard, and what we want to do is make sure that we’re really serving everyone to the fullest that we can on DDE. That always reflected in those in those reports that the that the board had done on the board hired a firm to do this. And so they all concluded that they were doing a great job. This is just a few months earlier, and so it was really start when when this happened, the crisis came along. The reports just a few months after the glowing review by the board, and then a month later, the board says, we need to change very cryptic and very unsatisfying. In fact, after the two were fired in March, I think was the 16th of March in 2016 Tony Odierno went on the Bill O’Reilly show, and Bill O’Reilly was always a very big supporter of the wounded warrior project. Odierno. It’s board, chair and audio was the board chair, Thank you. And at that point he stepped in. His theory of an amputee also. Yeah, and basically his father was a war hero. He was the head of the military command over there. And so he’s a Tony. Odierno is, I’m sure, a very fine, upstanding, good person. He wouldn’t return any of my phone calls, but that’s another issue. I think that he’s probably a very good person, no reason to doubt that. But he so he came in. He had a full time job here in New York. Kayman is an acting CEO, and he was interviewed by Bill O’Reilly, and O’Reilly said, Why did you fire me? So we needed a change of culture? No, Riley, to his credit, said, Well, what does that mean culture? What it was this culture thing that’s going on here? Well, we really needed a change of culture. I’m making you have the transcript and you have the transcripts segment in the book. Yeah, but basically said that we needed a repeated himself. We need a change of culture, know, really, if you remember him on the show, is kind of a pugnacious fellow, and he said, and this is a friend, you know, This is a friendly interview He said, Well, what does that mean? Again and again, Tony said the same thing. And Cody Bill O’Reilly was just flummoxed. Why don’t you answer this? You’re not answering my question. And he said, Basically, since you’re not answering it, I guess we just don’t have anything more to talk about. Very frustrating and what it really? In addition to your alley’s frustration, the problem was that Tony did not have a good answer because there was no good answer. They were essentially saying the organization in their responses to the reports. The organization is fine, but we need to make a change of leadership. Yes, that was the 22 contradictory statements. Exactly. So you have a report that comes out in March, this report that was done by Simpson Thatcher saying basically everything that the media said was wrong. Still, we need a change in culture. We need a change and so and I got a hold of a letter that Simpson This report, by the way, was not written. Okay? There was no right. It was orelon. But there was a letter written Thio Grassley, Senator Grassley who was looking into this. That’s the letter I looked at. And Simpson Thatcher said, Well, clearly, Odierno, Excuse me is clearly reinardy Z and xero dahna have to go. I’m thinking clearly. What? What’s so clear about that? Everything you’ve said so far is supporting the work that they’ve done. And so where is this coming from? The report vindicated them. The report vindicated. There s so we’re getting to the long marinating hit job theory. Well, the report vindicated them. And as part of that report, they said, Well, there are some some tweaks we should make here. You know, there are some things that as a growing organization, you should do a little bit better. Well, by golly, what organization does not have that is it? It was like policy. Some of the policies and procedures need to be right. Revised, but they’re experiencing explosive growth. I mean, it’s not uncommon for policies the lag behind growth as you’re trying to raise more money and do more programs, and both Steve and Al were seasoned at growing. They knew what they were doing. And so if you take that, you say that doesn’t make sense. What also doesn’t make sense is that a few years earlier, Simpson Thatcher also did a report on the Clinton Foundation, and they were scaling. This is a conflict of interest here. There are no policies. Everything’s wrong. There’s just like it’s crazy now, one scintilla of a recommendation to replace anyone at the Clinton Foundation here. Everything’s going well. We have a few things that we think we should, you know, upgrade. But you know, those two guys that have authored this entire success for the last decade, they need to go clearly. Let’s bring in Richard Jones. That’s a good time for him. He’s on the board of Wounded Warrior project. Uh, still is. I meant at the time. But he still is. Yeah. You say he remained. I didn’t know if he still is today. Okay, I think he’s going off the board at the end of this, Okay? But I think you still think it’s the last line of your book. Richard Jones remained. Yes. Um, but he’s on a couple of other boards and he’s got a He’s got a duty of loyalty to CBS as well. Talk about him. Well, I can only remember offhand right now. One of those two other boards and one was Dixon House. The other was the Veterans Family Institute for Vets and Military Families. E M F. Thank you. And there were a lot of organizations that I implied earlier who didn’t feel comfortable with wounded warrior projects. Growing success. And these were two of them and he was on those boards. And so he comes in. I believe in 2014 or 2015 I get the years a little bit off. It was after the Super Bowl. CBS dedicated the Super Bowl add to the Wounded Warrior Project, and I think he had something to do with it all. Good. So after that, he wants to be on the board of Wounded Warrior Project, and I asked Steve about this and I asked him other board members. Richard Jones didn’t talk to you know, I didn’t see any interview note for them. Well, the interview note that I do have in there is that he didn’t talk to me. Okay, um, when I show what I asked him, I asked all of the boardmember is the same thing, and nobody talked to me. But he was on the boards of these two other organizations that itself wouldn’t so much. It would raise a little bit of a red flag, but it would be disqualifying. I don’t believe, even though they might have known that these other two organizations were in opposition or really didn’t like W W. P. But there’s a lot of that going on. So it’s not the issue. The issue of the day. What really got my attention was that he was also a senior executive at CBS at the very time this was going on. And the criticism that CBS had of Wounded Warrior project was the very area that Richard really Jones was overseeing. I thought there was a conflict there and and a story I still do. You know, I feel it was very wrong, and I I’m I’m really interested in knowing why Richard Jones was allowed to be so much a part of not just wounded warrior project of the investigation that followed. Yeah, you question the board vetting of him when they when they invited him to come on, The fact that he’s a boardmember of two other competing organizations. Well, yeah, I do question esos veteran service organizations. Well, I don’t know that the other two are vey CVS. Oh, that’s a very specific designation. Okay, that’s okay. That same same world. And I wouldn’t call them. I would call him competing in the sense that they didn’t like Wounded Warrior project. They weren’t in the same league. And what I say that I’m not criticizing their size or anything there A lot of small organizations that are doing your job. It’s not that. But he came on and he he wanted a state and al to be fired. I did talk to board members who told me this that they he wanted them to be fired. And he insisted on the unanimous vote that they be fired. He insisted the vote be, you know, he was gonna He threatened to resign. That’s that’s strange. He threatened to resign if it wasn’t a unanimous vote to fire. Nor dizzy. And, uh um, Joe dahna. Yes. And this is, by the way, as a decide one person. It makes it sound so personal. Yes, it does, doesn’t it? Yeah. And then you have CBS doing this hit job, and it’s zee kind of a thicket of crazy questions coming around. All right, we gotta take, uh, take another break. We’re gonna bring in the charity evaluators, charity navigator and charity watch, too. Um, where are we now? We are with, um, Cougar Mountain Software, koegler Mountain. Simple to use. And the support is phenomenal. With a program like quick books, you don’t have support. If you don’t have support, it’s worth nothing. That’s quote Christine Christenson, the owner of Broomfield Cheap metal who uses obviously uses ku Commander. You can’t learn from a small business owner who loves the support at koegler Mountain. Of course you can. They have a free 60 day trial. You’ll find that on the listener landing page, which is at tony dot m a slash Cougar mountain. Now, time for Tony’s Take two your planned giving relationships. Um, when you, uh, inaugurate your plan giving program, you’re gonna be talking to people, mostly in their hundreds. I’ve never spoken to anyone over 100 but I’ve had probably hundreds of conversations with or thousands in all those decades but many, many with folks in their nineties. And, um, some of them are. It could be a little lonely and look for a little, you know, one a little more of your time on the personal side. And that could be a little risky for your plan giving program. And I flush that all out in, ah, my video. What to avoid in your plan giving relationships. And you will find that you know where to find that pizza that tony martignetti dot com and that is Tony. Stick to. Now let’s go back to, uh, Wounded Charity with Doug White, the author, teacher, the author, teacher consultant v. The author, teacher consultant to non-profits and philanthropist. Let’s bring in, um, charting. Navigator and charitywatch don’t have too many kind words. You have some, but not too much for these to charity rating organizations. No, I don’t. I think they should just stop doing what they’re doing. They’re doing more harm than good on that. It’s interesting you bring that up. I mean, they were a large part of the story, but there are a large part of the story in a couple of different ways. It’s because I wrote an article about Charity Navigator that came out in the Chronicle of Philanthropy that week in January 26. That was pure coincidence, right? It was pretty much a coincidence. I had put it in. But then the Wounded warrior project came in and I was able to add a sentence or two. I called Stacey and that the Chronicle. Stacy Palmer, editor dropping names, look atyou, dropping names. I call him Mr Palmer, but you know where Stacy? So we got a line in there. But it came out that week and it was Peter Hoener Camp who had been given that article by a friend of Hiss. And that’s why he called me. And that’s how I got in touch with wounded were how they got in touch with me Now going back to what charity navigator. Is it Zen evaluator way? OK, I don’t like them because they do a bad job. They they do not evaluate charities. They take numbers and they’re competent at dividing and adding and multiplying. But the relationship between those things, that is to say, what is spent on program or how much of CEO is paid or how much is spent on fund-raising or how many assets they have in the bank or whatever that is, is not direct indicator of how charity is doing in terms of its in terms of its work. And so they’ve been struggling with this for a very long time and trying to find this right mix the right algorithm. Well, there is no algorithm. That’s well, well, they have this former formulas and altum they wait certain things. They include certain things. They discount certain things, which is all very subjective. S o they It’s sort of it’s ah, it’s an objective product from a subjective process. You’re So you’re so right about that? I don’t know if you know this, Baxter. You know, I started I had forgotten that. But you, uh you have told me that in the past. Yeah, on dso Ken Berger. Very well. Who was Who was then the chair? I was CEO. Yeah, and I like him. I like him a lot. And I like Pat Dugan who funded charity navigator Pat Dugan had just sold out of his company, and I guess 2000 and that’s when I came out to be a consultant for him for a while, and he said, I want to know more about charities and he’s a good guy and he’s a kind of hardscrabble smart guy and wanted to do more in philanthropy in his life. And he said, If I can get the information, I can get this information out and help people understand how good charities are. And I said, The only thing we have that we can use is information from the 9 90 and there are lots of problems with that. The first problem is that it’s about a year and 1/2 to 2 years old, so you don’t really He wanted a morning star kind of a thing for charities, and it’s not gonna be the same in any way. The information on it is subjective because many people have. But there’s a lot of gray area in interpreting the 9 90 Yes, and finally I said you wouldn’t get married to someone if the only thing you knew about that person was her 10 40. It’s a relationship thes people have with the charity. It’s not just a matter of saying OK, you’re fund-raising efficiency is 20% whereas somebody else’s is better. And therefore, I’m gonna support that charity. I wanna go to a charity that I feel personally invested in in terms of the mission in terms of my own values. And so from that perspective, I said, We’re not gonna get very far in evaluating charity says That’s okay, I get it. I don’t really want anything more at this point. This is what we’re gonna do and besides the only information we have. So we did that. So all of that waiting and all of that has been revised many times. But it was very beginning. That’s what we did. But I always knew that it wasn’t the full story and it would never be the full story. It could never be the full story. Now that isn’t to say there can’t be a full story from other data or other information, but the charity world hasn’t yet gotten there, but that certainly doesn’t do it. But because there’s a vacuum, it fills that vacuum, and so people go to it. And Ken Burgers, predecessor Trump’s Trent Stamp, another super guy in a lot of ways, put charity navigator on the map. And so he became the go to for a lot of media in terms of questions about charities. And I just knew again I like Trent to a great deal. But they would be. He was being asked questions that had nothing to do with his work. A charity navigator like what kind of issues a charity would have with regard to its programs or something like that. And that’s not what Charity Navigator does. Yet it’s become this name of a new organization that knows everything about charities. And that’s not true. Let’s go, Thio. The reports come out, CBS News, New York Times, Charity Navigator and Charitywatch react. Well, What happened first was the charity navigator. Numbers were in the report and shared an advocator. Said that only 60% of the money was going toward programs. And wasn’t this a scandal and everything like that and s. So what happened was I talked to Ken Berger, and that’s in the book to I interviewed him and the reason that number was what it was. And I’m not thinking there’s anything generically wrong with 60%. Let’s get that straight right now. But put that aside for a moment, but it was higher than that because they were not charity. Navigator was not taking into account allocated costs that were being allocated to different Double Double Kid. You gotta read the book for that level of detail. Just get the damn book. But it’s not that complicated. I’ll say xero for readers. But the point being that charity Navigator disregarded both with G A P, the General Accounting Principles General, the accepted A Carroll accepted and the I. R s guidelines for doing this and charted every said. And Ken is very blond about this. We just didn’t take that into account. We just cut it off. So well, that’s not very fair, he said. Well, but the charity head of the opportunity to call us and correct it. So why is it up to them to call you to correct your mistake? Because they were up by almost 50%. It was like 85 instead of 60 was 85. Yes, yeah, yeah, and we don’t want to dwell on that number anyway, you know, there’s the whole overhead myth and, well, there is the biggest hypocrisy because, uh, charity navigator was the signature one of those I know. I had all three of them on the show when the letter when the overhead myth letter came out. Yes. I had Jacob, Harold and Ken Berger and Art Taylor on. Well, the other two were okay, but what did Ken Berger say to defend himself in that he’s the one who created the myth. So now he’s saying, OK, now we’re against that, right? I don’t get that. Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m getting a little bit. But I did have him on the show. That was, uh, October, October 2013. That letter came out. Um, that’s, um, other folks on the show to you. You opened with Dan piela and Brian mittendorf. Yes. Say both of them. They’ve both been on the go. Um, I don’t know what tooting my own horn, but this well, Danza show, do whatever the hell I want. Uh, they’re both good thinkers in this world. So damn very provocative. And he had a lot to say about one warrior project, Of course. Oh, you gotta read the book. You gotta be the book to find out. Exactly. I mean, everybody knows him from the Ted talk about the way we think about charities is what dead wrong. Okay, so we were Oh, it’s a charity navigator. In reaction to the reaction to the bad media charity Navigator puts them on what watch list or something or downgrades them. Right? The watch list thing. This is like This is so bizarre, Tony. I just can’t get my head around it still, and I’ve been swimming in this stuff for about 45 years now. So they put him on a watch list, and the watch list is nothing more than if unorganised ation is in the media in a negative way. They’re automatically put on the watch list because now we have some concerns about it. But now we have some concerns about it. So the funny thing is that a week or two later, right after that’s put on the watch list, CBS does another story saying Charity Navigator’s on the watch list. I Wonder Warrior Project. What? I’m sorry. Yeah, they put on the watch is by charitynavigator. Yeah, and the thing is bad. It was self perpetuating. But the other thing is that the story had nothing about being on the watch list. The story was just a rehash of other stuff they’d already right. So CBS wanted to grab this headline and then did nothing with it because there’s nothing to do with smaller organization Charity Raider Charitywatch. They did something similar. Yeah, they did in reaction to the media. Yeah, and they’re in the same ballpark I feel is charity Navigator when it comes to looking only at the numbers. Dan More shop. I don’t know if you’ve ever had him on. He’s out of Chicago. It’s a much smaller organization right on and again coming up with these ludicrous comments about the way charity should be run and no offence. Well, I guess I do mean to give offense. Let me be frank about my own intentions here. I don’t feel that Daniel Borisov is adding very much to the conversation about the charity world right now, and so I do criticize that, and if he’s going to sit there and criticize expenses, you should look in the mirror because his expenses with regard to his own salary a lot higher than anybody’s with regard to you. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, in relationship to the entire, but it’s like 1/2 $1,000,000. Your organization isn’t a tiny place. Okay, Um, all right. We still have another couple minutes before, uh, before before a break. Uhm All right, so they get this financial audit, it’s Simpson, Thatcher and f t. I. Very clean, with minor policy and procedure to minor things on you point out in a lot of detail the differences between the wounded warrior, project evaluation and the Clinton Foundation, but by the same firm Simpson Thatcher from, um, I guess we should start to, uh, hone in on the board a little bit. Now. You feel like it was left. Everything. Anything major out. I wanted to bring in the Richard Jones character. We left anything out. I mean, they were Well, yeah, jealousy. Okay, let’s take a look it for we analyze the boarding. Let’s look well, hard to analyze the board without Richard Jones being a part of it, and vice versa. But in terms of Jones role here he was the head of the audit committee, right? He’s the head of the Dam Art Committee that oversees the production of the 9 90 Yes, and he’s He’s flabbergasted by by these thieves. Media reports about overspending and lavish conferences. I’m sorry. Come back to take a break. Yeah. Let me get a break in. Because I know you’re on a roll for our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention to those stories on and build support for your mission and your work. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. Doug and I were talking about the Chronicle of philanthropy, and the assistant editor of Chronicle of Philanthropy is former assistant editor Peter panepento is a principle of turn to communications there. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. We gotta get the live listener loving Doug White. You brought, uh, you said you were out soliciting listeners. We got a lot of lot of live love going out. Thio Duncan, South Carolina, New York, New York Glenside, Pennsylvania, Jacksonville, Florida, Charlotte, North Carolina. Close. Thank you. Close to Emerald Isle. Tip of Florida Tampa floor. Like I’m 14 my voice breaks Atlanta, Georgia in New Bern, North Carolina Even closer. My goodness. Live love to there. Um, before we go abroad, Wallingford, Connecticut, and field Connecticut, Oakland, California, Arlington, Virginia. Franconia, Virginia. I know. Franconia. I think I might know that is, uh, somebody might actually be listening to me instead of you, Doug. 11 person. Uh, maybe this too. Uh, live love out to all of you. Philadelphia P A as well. Huntington Park, California And thats everybody, you know, and, uh, Br What is this? California. Where That br What you’re writing there. Braila. Braila, California Live love to all our domestic live listeners. Thanks so much for being with us. Let’s go abroad. Thio El Salvador. Guatemala. Lord is Guatemala multiple Guatemala. Welcome. Welcome. Live love to you Guatemala. Um Brasilia, Brazil. So Juan Korea, Inchon, Korea and, uh, Machado’s Brazil as well. Wonderful. Multiple Brazil, multiple Guatemala. And, of course, our friends in South Korea. Always checking in live love to each of our live listeners. Thanks so much for being with us and the podcast pleasantries. That’s where you know. Not that we’re focused strictly on the numbers, but the vast majority does listen by the podcast live listeners. You’re welcome to join the podcast as well for times when you can’t catch us. Friday 1 to 2 eastern time join the over 30 13,000 people listening live listening on the podcast. So the pledges trees the pleasantries and the AMA said pageantry is but the passing key pattern trees and the pleasantries go out to the podcast. Listeners, thank you for being with us. Got butt loads more time for, Ah, Doug White and, uh, wounded charity. Okay, um, I got so effusive, but I forgot. Over what? What was I? Oh, that’s right. This guy, Richard Jones, is the chair of the audit committee, for Pete’s sake. Yes, go ahead, Tyr, the audit committee and you have to go back and look at that broadcast that CBS did that first night, but also all three. But in that first night, and it was like, Shaq, you’ve got this terrible 9 90 out, and I’m shocked, shocked to learn that there are in proprieties financial proprieties at the wounded warrior project. But the fact is, there weren’t any minute they weren’t that. In fact, they did a evaluation of all of the budgeting for the prior seven or eight years. An audit. They didn’t find anything out of place, Not a dime. That’s right. I gave a bad remark. That was a bad film reference because the French lieutenant’s exactly what’s going on. It is bad and yeah, that was That was a bad reference. That’s okay, because of what? It really wasn’t any gambling going on in this in this there was not. But but Richard Jones was a boardmember and was also a senior executive at CBS and also very involved with the veterans community is a highly regarded guy. I mean, you know, when it comes to anything personal or anything, nothing there. I wanna be clear that I have found nothing in these people’s lives. That or anything but stellar. But in terms of evaluating what happened here, we have to be clear. Yeah, it was It was a crisis and people reacted badly and the board, collectively failed, failed the organization. Right? And I would also be clear about that with regard to, as I mentioned before, Dave Phillips and also Chip Reid. Stellar reporters Chip Reid was the CBS Carson, this guy. So getting back to Richard Jones, the report comes back orally. Remember that it’s not been anything delivered in written format, and there’s a news conference that the wounded warrior project has on March. I believe it was 9 March nine and says this is what the results were. And on top of that, we’re getting rid of our two top guys that same night that came through. But during that month, when that that audit was taking place, Richard Jones was involved in the interviewing process. So here he is being involved in the interviewing process, along with Simpson Thatcher on matters that he was very much overseeing very much a part of overseeing at Wounded Warrior project, about how CBS had had written and reported its stories. So there’s, you know, I’m not stretching for this one. There was a conflict of interest there. He had a duty of loyalty to both his employer and because of his board relationship with Wounded Warrior Project duty of loyalty there. Yes, he did, as well as Karen Obedience. That’s correct. So the question that I have never been able to ask, even though I did accept the answer even though I did ask it, is why he was permitted to do that, why he wanted to do that. I suspect a couple of things. One is he could do whatever you want to do because he’s boardmember and you know that’s what they do. Sometimes he was also very influential. I think that and I wasn’t able to really put thes two dots together. But I think that his having been somewhat instrumental in getting the Super Bowl ad brought him into the full W W p. And nobody really thought anything about it at the time and even asked Steve, how did he come into the board? And I asked him, boardmember is how they how he came into the board and they really couldn’t remember any kind of moment. But one boardmember said that he was very upset that Jones did not disclose his relationships with the other two organizations. So here he is, and I’m thinking something is going on here. But that was on the relationships worrying his LinkedIn profile. Those relationships wearing Richard Jones is linked in profile. That is correct. The board would not have had to dive deep too far. You don’t need a private investigator to find those you’re making good pose board relationships. Yes, you are making good point for a moment there, after I had badgered him with thes e mails. I think his LinkedIn profile became not public. But then I went back. About a year later. It was there. So maybe it was my fault, I don’t know. But at any rate, he was in a curious place in this whole drama here. And so I began to wonder, Did this this ousting process begin? Well before this crisis and was the crisis basically invented? So I’m thinking that it waas on. It was fairly easy to get some disgruntled employees, but I don’t know why. Eric Millette, the face of the of the CBS reports, came out to be so negative against Wounded Warrior Project after he himself had been so effusively positive about Wounded Warrior Project had been rated best charity to work. That’s that’s all comes from employees ratings. Yes, I’m not making any of this stuff as I am, he’s saying, Oh, I have great thoughts about W. W. P. This is all external stuff, right? It was a couple of years in a row or something. It was it was number one or number two number one charity to work at for a couple of years in a row in there, like the top five for others. But there was this Facebook page of disgruntled employees who felt that there there was. There were firings for trivial reasons. And they felt if you didn’t fit in, you got fired, right? Is that the basis of basically what their complaints were? That is what their complaints were. But it’s funny because the firings were for cause and there is some fairly big deal firings. One guy was caught stealing from the from the till fundraiser, and two people following that were fired because they allowed it to happen. They knew it. And so it was the opposite of what you’d find in a scandal. They were doing everything you should just to stay clean. Al was really on top of that. He would. And the other thing I want to be clear about here is that these people loved Alan. Steve, Steve, Steve was in a very public place and and Alice always been in the operation side of it. But in my interviews, I don’t think I had one person that I interviewed who wouldn’t didn’t go out of his way to say, you know, if it weren’t for Al here, he is the CEO of this multi $1,000,000 organization. Hundreds of millions of dollars of or he’s the second guy CEO Seo. And he’s he’s taking time to get me through this crisis or that crisis or worked with the V A. They used to make calls. They would make the calls to some of the recipients of the services. Yes, because at its core, W, W, P, and all of the V esos and others exist because VH has some cracks in it. That’s yeah, that’s that’s flushed out of the booth. Got a by the book to get you to get that detail. There would be cracks no matter what. But there’s severe crisis. So Alice going through in trying to help them navigate this Byzantine system and they love for Al. It was overwhelming, all right, we need to switch to the board. Doesn’t wanna spend time positivity and bored, and what the board should have done it so clearly the board should not have silenced do not have been silent itself on. Dhe should not have silenced. It’s to it’s to talk to duck guys. Steve went to Tony, Tony oh, tea or no and said we have to have a strategy here. And he had already created some outlines for a strategy with Live Strong. And I think Coleman and another group who had gone through crises and what the fund-raising resulted in from that and they were not interested in pursuing that. Now they have the crisis coming up there. They’re winging it and doing a bad job of it, right? He had encouraged crisis management training long before this all happened. Yes, and they didn’t invite eso. No crisis management training could be very valuable for you, For you, for you and your board. That’s right. And I will speculate, and I have to label. This is speculation or opinion or whatever. I believe that the crisis was somewhat manufactured, right? Well, that’s the long marinating his job. So the board Okay, so you want to get to the board and I taught board governance for 20 years at N Y. U and Columbia. I still do this Southern University, so I think, and I think board governance is where it’s at when it comes to really understanding. Non-profits and non-profits don’t really advertiser. Their boards are. It’s always the CEO. It’s out there in the face of the public. And so we really don’t know what boards do or who they are, which is, I guess, OK, But they are your listeners to know they’re the guys who are really running the show from a strategic and long range perspective. And so they really are the decision makers when important issues come up on. And in this particular case, they, I think, made a lot of bad decisions. And, uh, toward the end, I think they let Steve and Al do what they needed to do. But Allen Steve always made sure that the board was on board and that the board’s suggestions and opinions were always taken into account. And there are examples in the book where that is proven to be true. So, boardmember, who says Stephen Al just flew off? We had no idea what was going on is demonstrably false. Yeah, that all these right? All the lavish conferences the board had approved the conference expenses. You point that out? Yes, and they were sighted at $3 million they were under $1 million in one example Almost almost 30. Yeah, Exactly. Okay. What else? What else can. Non-profit takeaway. Well, board wise, it’s not. Everybody’s going to be in the cross hairs like Wounded Warrior Project. So it’s It’s a specific organisation there, but any organization can be caught and to be in trouble. So what should be? What should aboard do? The board should have a tremendous relationship with its senior staff. If there’s a bad relationship with the senior staff that has to be taken care of before anything else is done, that might mean getting rid of a few board members that might be get mean, getting rid of the senior staff. Make sure that’s there. The thing is, the thing about this is that was the case. There was a good relationship between Steven now and the board. But the problem is, and I think this is where Richard Jones played an oversized role in the whole process. They were allowed Thio fire these guys a Ziff. They deserved it and they didn’t deserve it. And so the board, the board has to be on top of this from a public relations perspective as well as an operational one, in my view, and the public relations perspective is not unimportant, it’s not just the dressing on the whole thing. It’s what’s really ruined. Or, I should say hurt. Not ruined. Hurt. Wounded Warrior project. Since that day, they have lost over 1/2 a $1,000,000,000 in revenue. The half 600 I think $50 million in revenue from that day in the last three years take caution. Get the book because there’s there’s a lot more detail that we were not able to cover. It is wounded Charity lessons learned from the Wounded Warrior Project Crisis, published early October, But you can advance by it on on Amazon. I know for a fact again, he’s Doug White, author, teacher and advisor to non-profit organizations and philanthropists. Thank you so much, Doug. It’s been a pleasure to see you again minded get mine as well. Next week, I’m working on it. I have I ever let you down? There was that one time with the fermentation show, but that was so long ago. I was I was only 52 then. Youthful indiscretion on that show. Um, if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers record. Cps dot com by koegler Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is By Scott Steiner, Brooklyn. They’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking Alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential Live Life, Your Way on talk radio dot N Y C. I’m the aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Friday’s 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Awakening Humanity. 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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s our three hundred fifty and show you heard that live music scott stein is with us and lots of other people. Thank you, scotty, you’re welcome. We’ve got two listeners of the week first. Dan kimble he’s, a product specialist at apple, owes software he’s always tweeting and retweeting aboutthe show very grateful. This week, he posted congrats to tony martignetti and his upcoming anniversary show, grateful for you’re and mr show, grateful for your promotion of non-profit work. Dan, i’m grateful to you for your support of non-profit radio. Thank you so much. Congratulations on being a listener the week on show number three hundred fifty also fund-raising fox they’re on the road right now between buffalo grove, illinois and downtown chicago. They tweeted that this will be great road trip listening to which i retorted, this is like an hour trip from buffalo grove to chicago that’s like that’s a commute? Not a not a, not a that’s, not a road trip, but okay, if you insist, maybe in chicago that’s a road trip congratulations. Fund-raising fox drive carefully even though you’re only going across the street, thanks for being with us on three fifty oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with copper. Oh, poor foreign yuria! If you wet me down with the idea that you missed today’s show, it is the three hundred fifty of show seventh anniversary of non-profit radio coast clear meyerhoff is with us with me live in the studio. We’ve got that live music and more to come give aways from pursuing and cure a coffee all our contributors jane takagi, maria semple and amy sample ward, our sponsor ceos are going to be with us. I’ve got new am and fm affiliate stations to introduce we got non-profit medio math quiz and i’m already exhausted. We’re on facebook live! Check us out right now from the tony martignetti non-profit radio page facebook live! We’re also live tweeting, join us! Use the hashtag non-profit radio on tony’s take two thank you. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com tomorrow half welcome back to the studio, tony. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Wonderful to be here for the three hundred and fiftieth show. Thank you. Yes, i love it. You’re the creative producer of the show. Of course. Thank you. I helped you start the show from one back when it was the tony martignetti show for two weeks back in the day two thousand ten also? Yes, of course. There’s a seventh anniversary seventeen minus ten seventh anniversary president of plant giving agency that’s me, you’ll find claire at pg agency, dot com and at claire says z what’s going on climber half what’s up in your what’s up in the pg agency. Well, we’re working on a lot of different projects. I’ve got a lot of wonderful clients and working with parkland hospital foundation in dallas. Cool, a couple of other clients in texas and a couple clients in florida and ah, united way and lots of different people. And i’m staying here in new york for a couple days of my friend bette’s house in westchester county, and i drove into the city this morning with the convertible top down and here i am, cool it’s a beautiful day for a top you drive to scott stein. Welcome back to studio. Thank you for having me. Great seeing my pleasure. Of course. Scott’s dying. The composer of our theme song. My voice is cracked theme song like i’m fourteen cheap red wine of course you’re gonna be playing cheap red wine on dh another wine related song as well you’ll find him at scott stein music dot com don’t go to scott’s stein dot com i did that that somebody it’s an australian motivations motivational speaker don’t go to stop sign dot com go to scott’s in-kind music dot com and he’s at scott’s time music also so glad you’re with us. Great beer. Cool. Cool. Uh, we got, uh we got track record on the phone. He is the ceo of pursuant to years, sponsor of non-profit radio. The renewing way with us to the end of the year. So grateful for that. So so grateful for pursuance, sponsorship and love of non-profit radio trade ryker, welcome to the show. Tony. How you doing today? It’s? Great it’s. A beautiful day for three. Fifty how are you doing in where you from? In texas. Where? You calling from? I’m in the dallas area. The big d. Okay, cool. I want to thank you. I want to thank you so much. Not only for being here today, but for pursuing sponsorship of non-profit radio. Well, tell me, first of all, congratulations. Three hundred fifty episodes. What a milestone. Unbelievable. We appreciate so much. See great work that you and the other sponsors provide the opportunity for you to do for the non-profit states your gift way. Love what you do, and they’re just proud to be a sponsor. Thanks, tony. Thank you so much, trent. Um, you you are so generous at pursuing there’s there’s. This constant resource is available. I mean, i’m talking about them every single week. It’s webinars info. Grams. Content papers? Uh, it’s it’s. Amazing how generous you are. What? What? Acquaintance with what’s coming up for pursuing the rest of this year. Well, a lot going on. Thank you for that. We really believe in giving back the non-profit states in any way. We can. We learn a lot by working with our clients were in partnership with them always. We’re always thirsty. Learn mohr and then share what we learn. Through a variety of webinars and white papers and other things that we do, no matter how large or how small you are, we’re hopeful ableto help some folks out, you know, for the second half of the year, we’ve been working hard on something that over the years we’ve learned things. One of the things that i think most important is that the smaller non-cash profits that don’t have the resources to hyre firms to help him out of that at a deep level, we’re trying to make some of those tools more accessible youand your listeners have known that we’ve been working on that for a while, wade got some exciting things on the horizon to make better sense of all that data out there that that folks have and be able to make that more actionable and getting better results without having that we’re not having to spend a lot of money, so we’re driven by by creating tools, you know, i think that that’s an opportunity out there right now, there’s more competition than ever out there for the same dollars and stay on top of mind for your constituents and being able to keep up. In that to a conversation is really important, and while there are a lot of great point tools out there would like to call them, and we encourage everybody to use things like that that are free or very inexpensive with non-profit states being able to pull that data together being ableto you have the appropriate relevant conversations to your here’s donors and your prospects and volunteers on your advocate, you are really important so that some of the stuff we’re working on cool and, you know, small and midsize non-profits that’s the audience, you know, where we’re big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, and i’m always saying every week, actually, a couple times a week pursuant data driven technology enable ana, i know and that’s that’s a big no that is a challenge area for small and midsize shops. Yeah, not always accessible, i think you know the big non-profits have a lot more resources, and while we appreciate the opportunity to work with them and learn from them, i’m really driven for the drive system for the quote unquote little guy, the small, the medium sized non-profit that’s passionate about what they’re doing and that most of the time spent, you know, driving for the mission of the organization and fund-raising is an important aspect of that, but how do we make that more simple? How do we make it more accessible? How do we make it more affordable? And so i think that the market will be really excited about some of the stuff that we’ll be bringing out twenty eighteen by way of tools to apply all of that. We’re taking the concepts that you hear out there about business intelligence and artificial intelligence, predictive modeling, and we’re going to simplify that to make it as easy as the way you might use google maps and make it easy for the smaller, medium sized non-profit put it to use and to raise more money and more connected to their constituents. That’s what’s really important, excellent trench. Well, i look forward to sharing the word of all that stuff as it comes out with our with our audience with our over twelve thousand growing on die again. I know you’ve got to go and i thank you very much again for your support of non-profit radio. Thanks so much for being with us, trent. Congratulations, tony. And everybody out there keep supporting tony and the great work that he does. Keep up the good work for your non-profit have a great show, tony, and keep up. Keep it going. All right. Cool. Thank you very much, trent. So long. All right. We’re gonna go out for a first break. We got tons more coming up. Oh, my god. We’re just scratching the surface for god’s sake. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent reminded we’re on facebook live got some folks with us shout out tio maria simple is there dave lynn, thank you so much. Uh, who else we got? Gary astro cool welcome shoutouts to facebook live! You can join us at the tony martignetti non-profit radio page were also live tweeting used the hashtag non-profit radio. Join the conversation on twitter um, we got a we got to give away let’s do a giveaway we’ve got got coffee gif ts from cura coffee and we’re giving our first pound of coffee too silver mark he’s at this is ah, his twitter idea at silver mark make-a-wish did three hundred fifty is awfully nifty returns of the day for those great things you say i mean, you know that’s, you got to give you got to give some kudos for creativity not great! Those are not great lyrics, but that’s just our okay cheats memorable! I think he may have used it may be recycled. He may have used that for another contest. I don’t know, but that silver mark, thank you so much you’re going to get a pound of coffee from cura coffee and claire, won’t you tell us about your coffee? Cure a coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee beans. With every cup of courage, you’re joined your effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities around the world. We are direct trade, a direct trade coffee company with direct impact brought directly to you, creating organic smiles beyond the cup. Cure coffee, dotcom. Thank you, claire. In that beautiful radio voice, she’s got that. She talked pretty talk pretty good. My abc radio cbs radio serious. You left off serial. I work too serious. Serious. Next time. Don’t be modest. I was then except when they launched on september twelfth, two thousand won cool. Oh, that xero auspicious. That you know that and i get it. You know, again shadow to cure a coffee. Coffee. The ceo is a dentist. He’s practicing dentist that’s. Why? When you get a pound of cure a coffee that’s, why they when you get a compound of your coffee, the gift goes, goes to silver. Mark will include a toothbrush and i think luke’s dental floss. But there’s aural. Care? Yes, because that’s. Why, he says. He says expanding sustainable dental care to remote communities they’re they’re giving back to the communities where the coffee beans are raised. Dental care, they’re giving money for dental care in those communities, communities and in central and south america. On he is a he’s a practicing dentist. He couldn’t be with us. I beg him to couldn’t make it he’s between patients, you know, he’s doing a root canals. You know, it’s got saliva around everything all right? Um, scotty, you cannot i want you to play first song for us. Sure. Um again, scott scott stein, now a pianist, songwriter, vocalist, composer, arranger tell us what you’re gonna play first. I’m gonna play a tune from the record that i just put out just a little bit ago the records called travelling companion and the song is called wine soaked tart we’re keeping ah, wine theme here we do. We got cheap red wine, wine soaked tart. People are going to get the wrong impression of me here, you know, but it’s ah it’s a little tune that way have this idea that as songwriters in his artist we have to be, you know, really down in the dumps to really, like, create great music, you know, you have to really be eo, suffer for your art and it’s not true. It helps it’s, not total teacher. But this is something that is not what kind of zooming out and kind of, you know, being grateful for for what you have i was i was on honeymoon with my wife when i woke up in the middle of the night with the idea for the song, okay? And scott stein, wine soaked heart off his newest album, traveling companion. Dahna i love what you give me. You lying so tired, let me ramble through the square like this september breeze is used to know, nor would you give me your line so tar, let me pull it all together. Then they pull my fuse, paul. Sametz it’s six in the morning and i can’t sleep. It was lying about a strange hotel bed. Buy-in sounds of my lover. Do not keep me waiting. Just the ryland to the rumblings bouncing around inside my head. I what would you give me your wine? So tar, let me revel, sing in the shadow of the spanish hill. You know what, give you wine so let me pull it all together. Limit my fuse part. It’s been a long time coming, but we made it here going to step out on the block, and the noise is going to get off the grid. Tune out everybody but the one i love. Let the world revolve around us like a couple of barefoot kid. Oh, yeah. Love to give me a wine. So tar buy-in let me ram on the land of the authors in the poet it’s on the scene. Lorts give you wine. So tar. Let me pull it all together to limit my bar for my future. Call it predictable. I don’t care. U b roll footage. Cue the montage here. The movie strings. You only get so many years. Be so self aware before the exterior starts to fade in. On this left are the important thing. Duitz because you want forever with a wild, wild heart. What would you give me your line? So tar? So down, breathing him. Don’t try to think so much law to give me a line. So tar, let me pull it all together. My fuse, par. Put my fears apart. Buy-in got stein one so tart thie album is traveling companion. Get the album at scott stein music dot com scottie, thank you so much. Thank you, absolutely love it, love it and there’s more to come. We got we got course, cheap red wine coming up, indulge me while i announce a couple of new affiliate stations. Would you please? All right. W p h w in harpswell, maine live listener love to you. Ah, philly. In effect, i should say affiliate affections to w p h w so glad you’re with us. They’re in the freeport brunswick area of maine, just northeast of portland. Welcome. Welcome to the affiliate community. W p h w also cabe og ki bong ninety seven point nine fm in bandon, oregon. And that is oregon, not oregon. There’s no. E at the end of oregon, oregon offgrid admonished it’s, oregon. Brandon, oregon. There are pacifica station that’s. Very cool on. They happen to be all along the pacific coast in county, oregon. Now, why’re they k bog. I found out k bog glamarys come off cranberries. Very organ is a very big cranberry producing state. Really? And this region of of oregon is bandon is the cranberry capital of oregon. Really cool. Have you been to argue? Okay, bob, i’ve been to oregon. I’ve been to portland. I’m joined a portland for the organ for the first time this october. And then i will only have two states in the us. I have not visited well, that’s very and north when you’re so young through so i need to oh, thank you. I need to get a speaking engagement in alaska and in alaska, north dakota. Okay, that should be well. North dakota is easy, one for you. North dakota sametz least visited st in united states. Listen, alaska people threat well, the glaciers that while there, while we have them, okay, that that’s very cool, you’re going tohave portland. You’re really a great food scene. Great fruiting, love, ah, really quirky place. So our new affiliate stations w p h w and k b o g. Welcome to the affiliate community affiliate affections to those listeners. I’ve got more stations coming up. We got jean takagi on the line. I know we do. Jean takagi is the principle of neo, the non-profit exempt organizations. More group he’s at g tak e ta ke yet it’s. The wildly popular non-profit lob log dot com. Hello, jean takagi. Happy anniversary, tony. Congratulations on three. Fifty. Thank you, man. That’s so cool. Thank you very much. I’m so glad you’ve been with us so so many years from the very early days you were you were one of the very first shows, like you were in, like the first, fourth or fifth show or so and, uh, contributor sense. Really geever it’s been awesome, but you have to come back and visit me here in san francisco. I know. Well, you should come. You know, you could come to new york. I did visit you once in san francisco years ago. But you could come to new york, too. That invitation is open. You could come to the beach in north carolina if you like peaches. That’s tony’s having a big, fat oregon. Maybe we can all meet there in oregon. That’s. Not too far. Yeah, but i’m thinking about a fall trip, actually out west. So i will. I will let you know. Just you know, jeanne, i i emailed this to you a lot, but i want to say it to you. You know, i’m so grateful for the time that you put in for the listeners. Of small from small and non-profit med small and midsize shops it’s a non-profit radio so grateful for the time contribution you make, you know, month after month, you red block posts about the show. When you’re gonna be on, you’re a terrific i just i’m so grateful to have you as our legal contributor. Thank you so much, james. Thank you, tony. Thank you for making all of this information from all of your great contributors available. Teo non-profit sector it’s it’s. Invaluable. Thank you. Uh, what do you got going on, gene? But you got a little little takeaway. Will tip you wanna leave? Leave us with? Sure. You know, i thought i’d talk really briefly about having a politician appear in your charity event. We recently had way did have someone forced chamber. Yeah, it got a lot of attention, so i didn’t talk about that specifically wanted to make sure everybody knew that political leaders can be invited to speak on issues of public policy and issues of importance that charity events. But you’ve got to be careful about it, so make sure you know five oh one see threes aren’t allowed to engage in election. Nearing, so provide instructions to the politicians or their staff, people about not campaign campaigning or speaking on political campaign issues. Uh, you know, at the charity event, and if they start campaigning, you might choose to interrupt politely and strategically, if possible. You know, sometimes that may not be possible if it’s the president of the united states, that might be very, very politically challenging to do that. But afterwards, don’t wait long at the end of the speech of possible make a statement about the charity being a partisans uh, organization don’t wait several days and have the statement come from the top of your leadership. So jean, what is the worst case scenario that could happen to a five a one? C three non-profit if, for instance, a candidate came and super campaigned and broke all those rules and you didn’t do anything about it, what’s what could happen? What’s the outcome right now, the rules say the remedy is taking away its five a onesie three tax exempt status so that’s the rule you know, right now in the political climate, president trump and the republican party platform say that they want to get rid of that rule, but they haven’t gotten rid of that ruled yet, so they would actually like to open up election hearing toe all five, twenty three public charities. But that hasn’t happened yet, and it may never happen. We hope that it doesn’t happen, but the rule right now don’t let it happen because you could lose your tax. Exempt that claire’s got another question for another question. Have you heard about a cherry that has lost its tax exempt status? Because of that? Yeah, it happens pretty rarely and particularly much more rarely. I haven’t heard of any since the new administration. But you would see a handful every year lose their tax exempt status for just that reason. Okay. Interesting. Cool. Very timely topic as always. Jean jean takagi, always on top of things s oh, so grateful, gene. Thank you so much. Thanks. What a pleasure. Thanks, tony. Thanks, clarence. Got have a great thank you. Thanks for your good wishes. So long, gene. We got we got alex career alt-right not not yet. Okay, we’ll get to him. Um, let’s. Um, let’s. Take our little break. Then we got we got we got a little business. Actually, but we have tons of stuff coming up. You still got the math quiz? We got more giveaways. I got morning am and fm stations. We got live listener love coming up. I gotta do the live listening. But look at this for those of us, those on facebook like this list of live listeners amazing it’s a scrolling off the printer, the live listeners we’ve got. And, of course, on the heels of that comes the affiliate affections on the podcast pleasantries, cheap red wine coming up all that first you got to give a shout to pursuant we know them. We just met the ceo but i got eggs. I got to do my promotional thing because i do want you to check them out for the free resource. Is that that trade? And i were talking about infographics, content, papers, webinars. And even even if it’s paid trainings and we have a great prize coming up great grand prize that’s all i am permitted to say at this moment about the grand prize but it’s related to this? Just check them out for resource is tons of stuff for free. They are data driven. It’s it’s. Not just a tagline for them. They help you work with data sorted out, figured out, use it, so you’re not overwhelmed. Check him out. Pursuing dot com quick resource is all the stuff is right there, and we’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. They make millennial money, these air, these air really cool. Claire, they it’s a night for your charity, it’s, live music, dancing, stand up comedy, and they work in fund-raising through spelling bee that’s fun, because millennials are really spelling peer-to-peer. The resident millennial. I feel like i have to confirm this, okay, when you write your lyrics, they’re spelled correctly, yes, what, nobody sigh, and nobody sees them, right. Okay, check out they have a video, they’re really cool. Video show you what a night is like for your charity, it’s, that we b e spelling dot com and then just talked to alexx career, and hopefully we’re gonna be talking to him shortly. And i gotta do tony steak to now, which is my thank you too the way it goes from the people who are just with us today live on facebook hello, thank you for that. But the listeners the over twelve thousand listeners i’m just so grateful that the audience has grown so much in seven years. Thank you, thank you for being part of non-profit radio the trend is always upwards. I’m grateful for that if you let me in your inbox every thursday through the insider alerts, which if you’re not getting them, you can get them at tony martignetti dot com. Thank you for letting me in your inbox every single week. If it’s youtube our fans, their subscribers, they’re on youtube there’s a new video every week twitter, thanks so much for following me reach meeting this show tweeting about the show just enormous, enormously grateful i just got us you know this is an anniversary time to time to say thank you, thanks so much. And speaking of the latest video aside from the three fiftieth which you don’t need now because you got to show you don’t need the previous video, you might check. Out the one that i did most recently before that it was feels good in sixty nine and that’s all i can say about that video, you just have to watch to see what the sixty nine is all about. And, of course, that’s at tony martignetti dot com feels good in sixty nine, and that is tony stick to we got maria simple online. I’ll bet we don’t have a reassembly yet. Wow. Okay, i’ll tell you what, let’s do a little math quiz clay morrow, because i’m really good at math. So exactly, um, and i’m a lawyer. So we picked a non-profit radio math quiz. So you know, we’re gonna sing a song writer writer on dh lawyer, former engineering student i story story for you to bring your slide rule uh, i can not write. Or your engineer, you may need your engineering calculator for those. Ok. Ok. So here’s here’s the math quiz? Because tony’s been doing this show for a long time now, since since twenty ten, it’s a lot of shows that he’s very prolific. We have three hundred fifty shows, so i’d like to kind of figure out some things that some numbers that we’ve accomplished over the years. So would you say how many guests average per show phone and live in studio? Yeah. Live in studio and then plus you gotta bring in the conference guests. I mean, sometimes there’s like three and four panellists. I’d say average. Okay, average, uh, one point seven three let’s. Say two. Okay, let’s round it. So three hundred eighty shows. Two guest per show we have. Who gets it first? How many is that? I hope that i hope that some hope that seven hundred, seven hundred okay, so how many steps are there to climb up the stairs from seventy second west? Seventy second street to the studio here. Oh, you could take the staircase around here. I do it all the time. How many steps? Which is saying? Oh, sam, sam sametz again. Twenty. So twenty steps, times two hundred fifty shows is that’s. Got to be that’s. Gotta be the same. Seven thousand fifty seven thousand. Scott so you did bring a slide rule? I yes. Yes. It’s right in here. All right, all right, all right. So, tony and scott, how many times during each show would you say scott’s music is played during each show. Oh, that’s a cool oh, that’s like how many times is the number one appear on a dollar bill? One, two, three for i’d say it’s probably five. I’m thinking five so what’s time to a two hundred fifty. I don’t know the seven, seventeen, fourteen hundred plus three. Fifteen degree was kottler against that’s got with all right. All right, i swear i’m not i’m not just like peeking over the over the engineering because a ringer is i didn’t know that, it’s. All right? I don’t know. Who’s going to bring her. Okay. How many times have you taken the show on the road? Oh, my gosh! Conferences. Oh, that’s. Probably like, i’m afraid that’s an easy one. Well, ten. So let’s say eleven. So what percentage i can’t even do? The percentage of eleven of the three hundred fifty shows are were shows on the road but you cut me off the delays. I get more than one interview per unconference less now last non-profit technology cover. That was twenty, thirty two interviews in one conference. So there’s thirty two right there, right in three, two and half days. I got thirty two interviews, i’d say probably come away with twenty times eleven conferences. That will be two hundred twenty interviews out of no, that can’t be right. Two hundred twenty. That sounds too high. No that’s. Not right. What am i doing wrong? It’s probably not that high it’s probably it’s. Probably been like one hundred. Oh, those air segments that you’re messing me up. Segments two segments per show. So seven hundred segments. Two hundred let’s. Say, two hundred something two hundred twenty five of those maybe have been conferences or so two hundred out of seven hundred segments. Okay, so the last questions for may out of seven years of shows, i probably come and do it live. Maybe, like, three times a year. So i’ve been here maybe twenty one times. Uh, yeah. In the early days. Yeah. You’re blowing me off in the early days? No, i invited you all time. You never came up? No, i yeah, don’t twenty more. That sounds like a lot. And you know, the last time i was here in the studio, i left tony and i saw another man who works in broadcasting. I met someone. Really? Really. Cool. Right after i left tony show. Oh, you met lester. Lester holt? Yeah, i went down to nbc and lester home. You’ve treated me a picture. You facebook me a picture of you and lester. So today stepped down, you know, the talking alternative studios where we are live on nbc, and then i guess you could go down, continue going down on the show to last. So what are you doing in new york? I said i have clients here and stuff like this came from this non-profit radio show. Oh, and cause i realized later that lester worked in radio. So radio people like even if they end up working in tv or whatever, they still really love stick todo zoho he’s. His eyes lit up when i said, ready brady was cool. Absolutely, absolutely. All right. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for the non-profit. Your math quiz created, produced. This is what she’s, the creative producer. Well, what a surprise. No surprise. Came up with this last night. Like eleven. Thirty my maria semple, decide your simple cold. And i was actually calling on her a little early because she was not at fault when i said maria symbols online, but she is now anyway. Fremery a sample. Hello there, how are you our social media contributor? Immense. I’m sorry prospect restarts contributor. I’m doing great, our prospect research contributors. You’ll find her at the prospect finder dot com and she’s at maria semple on, and she has been a long standing oh gosh, but going back also many years hyre contributor to non-profit radio. Thank you, maria, thank you so much for the time you put in a month after month for our listeners. Thanks so much for my pleasure and congratulations on three hundred fifty and looking forward to three hundred fifty more. Oh oh, my god, they’ll be seven hundred. Okay, i don’t know what i’ll be another seventy years. Oh, my god will be forty. What is that? Twenty, twenty four? Um now cool. Where you now? Where you calling from? Maria semple? I am in new jersey. You’re home in jersey, okay, cool. Very simple loves the new song you facebook live. Do you love scott’s new song? Thank you. Yes, i did. I really liked it a lot. I’m gonna have to go see where i can find it. I think he said it was scott stein music dot com. So i jot that down that’s exactly right. And get the album. Traveling companion. Yeah, she lives out facebook live. All right. Um, summary of you. You got a little tidbit for us today in respect, research land. What do you see? It’s one on there? Yeah, well, you know, i thought it was just kind of focused on teamwork a little bit because, uh, sort of staying in the spirit of, you know, your three hundred fifty shows wouldn’t have happened with without a lot of teamwork there in the studio and from your regular contributors and so forth and all the conferences you’ve attended and really focusing on how important prospect researches to the development process. But that really it’s only one component of the development process on and really try to encourage folks if if you’re wearing that, that prospect research had either as a your sole function within the organization, or maybe one of the functions that you do and your everyday job to try not to work in a vacuum and to try and get a seat at the table. If you can try and see if you will be allowed to attend those development committee meetings and so forth to really play a role in the overall development cycle so that information that you’re able to glean from important conversations can be incorporated into the work that you d’oh alright, it takes a village. It takes a village, is what you’re saying. I think it takes a community text community to raise money and number, and, well, of course, non-profit radio is a part of that, but so is prospect research. All right, the team approach i love thank you for shouting out the team. We do have a great team. We do have an excellent, cool team. I shot them out of the end of every show. Claire scott, sam. Oh, our social media, social media, of course. Social media, susan chavez, all part of the team. Yes, thank you for that. Thank you so much. Cool. Maria, i want to thank you so much again for being part of the show. Thank you very much. And again, wishing you many, many more. Thank you, maria. I gotta give shut out to people who are with us on facebook live. We got we got tons more still. Aunt mary. I know her on david insta with us. Gary astro jimbo xero welcome, jim dahna gillespie rivera ray meyer mary-jo chamberlain michelle libonati oh, my god. Old good friends. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. You could join us on facebook live at tony martignetti non-profit radio page and we’re also live tweeting and use the hashtag non-profit radio. Is that true? That’s true, isn’t it? Um, let’s. See, we got a make on line. Scott. Sam. Any buy-in the line? Okay, then, uh, let’s. Go to i got some new ah, so new affiliate stations and i’d like to welcome. We’ll continue bilich community absolutely am fm stations throughout the country. We got a new one. Que tiene que eighty eight point one fm carbondale, colorado and w c s q one o five point nine fm radio coble skill in upstate new york. I know. That you know, couples skill. Well, i went to plattsburgh state, so i know you would know. Yeah, i know. Yes. Did you know is it’s uh, you know, that’s coble skill, not kabul skill. It’s it was called didn’t know. I didn’t know that i do now, but it’s spelled like kabul, but it’s coble told only one day only one b all right, thank you very much. Like right would be no e at the end of oregon. Okay, you’re right. Couple would be all right. My gobble kabul it’s coble it’s called bilich latto global scale koegler and i’m so glad they’re with us that’s w c s q one o five point nine fm andi i know couple skills. I got a ticket there once. Yeah, it doesn’t. Eighty eight, i think route eighty eight. I don’t know. Interesting fremery take out there, but i’ve got to take a lot of other places in upstate. You got you got a tear, right? Hearing even all the good places. Saratoga, you got a parking ticket right here on seventy second street after one show. That’s a parking ticket that was parking moving violations, or you’re in the big time. Yeah, i did get one. You’re you’re coping skill. I’m pretty sure it was on eighty eight. You gotta hire a lawyer when you get a speeding ticket. That’s the best thing to do. I had to do that once, actually in virginia? Yep. Virginia. You know what? Because anything over eighty, of course, that was not me. I saw it on a sign. But if you happen to be one who was pulled over for dui strike more than eighty is reckless driving. I’ve been there. You get you get a misdemeanor. You know, mr metoo convey. Imagine if you sign the back of that ticket. Mr metoo conviction in virginia for doing over more than twenty miles per hour over the speed limit or over eighty miles per hour. But you could. So i’ve heard you can hire an attorney. You know, they send you letters and for a very reasonable about they’ll take care of it. And the lawyer that took care of mine, i chose his letter out of about twenty letters because his name was will robinson. Oh, cool. Thank will robinson. I didn’t get that was virginia. That was virginia. Virginia. I didn’t get here because i would have picked him through. Thank you. Will robinson? Yes. Be careful in virginia on ninety five. I’ve heard it could be bad. So, yes, eso brand new stations now in main oregon, colorado in new york. So lots of new affiliate affections going out when? When we get to that. So so many affiliates do we have a terrestrial radio? Couple dozen. I really don’t know the exact number. Look where they ended up partying more than twenty. Woman. Twenty. So a score score was more than a score. We gotta score. Plus more than stone. Just don’t get that matthew’s teo what’s that teo give our leaders. Tio penn was that old word for a for a ten cent piece. Whatever a dime in the tie. I can’t remember to bits. We got to bet your two bits worth of that isn’t isn’t cubine oh, is it that those dying what’s two bits i don’t want it was a dime. Now two bits a quarter. We’re almost a two bit we could were around to putting wimpy say, it’s worth burglar hamburger um okay, let’s. See, uh, i want to i want to. Do some more music. Yeah, i’m ready for more music. Scotty stein. Oh, it’s, time for the time, for the theme of non-profit latto now, this is this is legit. I never stole this music from scott start. We have, we have no way of really license, license and he’s been with the show ever since. It’s a couple of years now, you know, i didn’t go back and look at when the licensing agreement started, but if you have been a few years, yeah, cheap red wine, this is scott’s dying cheaper what what’s the album, the cheaper ones snusz from a two thousand nine record, i did called jukebox and get their jukebox. I’ve seen him live ilsen him in and bars clubs. I’ve seen him do cheap red wine a few times. Scott stein, the theme song for non-profit radio, cheap red wine, all right. To be, they just keep on talking sooner. Later, i figure around just so what you mean. You see, in romantic advice from a village, i’m looking for answers upon a tv screen. Buy-in wait can agree on nothing. We can’t tell our ups from our downs. We’re disappointed in each other. Nothing baby. And i love that we have found. You know, you used to find me charming, but i can’t figure out how. And you said you thought it was handsome. But doesn’t matter now. So keep falling. Five foot sounds as long as your time. Well, because i haven’t got any promises about a cheap one and down. You know, some girls live in diamonds. And they won’t talk to the cut of clothing that i wear. Well, i’m reporting for the good stuff, and you’re too easily distracted to care, relying got too many options, and so i’m gonna do the best that i can, but you have some competition one day when i’m a wealthy man said, you know, you used to find a job, but i can’t figure out how you see your toes, and it doesn’t matter now. So came falling from my post as loans. Your time will allow, because i’ve got a runny promises by achi, brenna wine and wait let’s, raise the glasses. You drink the better days. The other people’s kids are. They don’t like the things we say, and i’m thinking, because of everything that i want flash nothing. Three signs his work permit for each other, as long as with you, nobody else in my nobody’s way. What? You know, you used to find the jumping, but i can’t figure out how and you see, your father was handsome. Never mind it. Don’t matter now, so get for from a punch on monday, tom. Allow about her any promises, a cheaper one. Teo. Yeah, man, that song is under my skin. I can’t help it. I just love i just love cheap red wine from the first moment i heard i knew it had to be the thing that theme song thank you so much. Thank you for your, you know, for communion to have me on and getting congratulations every fifty and, uh, you know, supporting local independent music. Absolutely. Absolutely love it. Thank you. I’m glad you’re part of the show chanpreet out every time. Every time we got we got alex career alex were called and he’s the ceo of we’d be spelling you hear me? Talk about it every single every single week. Super cool spelling bee fundraisers we be spelling dot com. Hey, alex. Career. Hey, what’s up. Tony, how you doing? I’m doing great. How are you? I’m doing fantastic. Thanks so much for having me on for the three hundred and fifty of the exciting stuff. Absolutely. I just wanted to hear you tell people. You know, in your own words what we be spelling is all about, and i’m grateful that you’re part of the show week after week after week. So, you know, give us give us the short version. What? What? What tell me about we’d be spelling absolutely. So we’d be selling the lifetime of game show. We have a live band with comedian judges. What we do is we take this wacky event repair with non-profit and we use it a za fundraiser. So we start peer-to-peer campaigns with all of the spellers. They raised a bunch of money like marathon runners in the lead up to the event. And we come together. We have ah, party of an event that it’s spelling bee only in name, but feels a lot more like comedy. Game show. Yes, cool! I love that it’s all it’s, all entertainment i’m you know i’m always saying, is that it’s not your seventh grade fundez not your seventh grade spelling bee, not you. It is not your grandmother’s, not your grandmother spelling that. What do you got coming up? Anything exciting? Going share? Yeah, so we’ve been really busy this year. We’ve been doing about two to three events a month from the top of the year axel next big event is august twenty third in brooklyn were going to be part of the brooklyn comedy. Festival so that’s a really fun event we’re partnering with. They tell you to raise the money at a big event with a whole bunch of comedians participating in fellers that august twenty third at union pool in williamsburg, brooklyn. Excellent. Excellent. Yes, and it’s a night for your charity, it’s ah, it’s fund-raising for your charity individually. S o you know, check out the video. We be e spelling dot com and then just talked to alexx. I mean, you could see what a what a what a cool guy is, right? I mean, it’s, no trouble. No trouble. All right. Appreciate it, alex. My pleasure. Thank you for calling in. Thanks so much for being part of the show. For your sponsorship. Of course. In two to three hundred fifty and three hundred fifty more shows. Thanks so much. Thanks so much. Let’s. Go teeny sample war. Who? Thank you. Thank you. Alex let’s, go to any sample ward. I know she’s on. Hello, amy. Sample ward. How are you? Hello. I’m doing well. Congrats on three. Fifty. Thank you. Aimee semple ward, our social media contributor. Ceo of intend the non-profit technology network. She’s at amy rs. Ward the ours for rene. Um and thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, i can’t believe that. I mean, i remember five years ago getting to be on the show. Can you believe that it’s been five years? I know you were on your guest on the one hundredth. You’re a guest on the one hundred, and then i just fell in love with the whole idea of prospect of sorry mixing him up social media and being on the show every single month. And, uh, yeah, two hundred fifty shows ago. It’s. Amazing. I know. Five years. Absolutely. So. So, you know, there are there were tools that didn’t exist five years ago that now we get to talk about on the show. Indeed, there were indeed there were so glad so. And let me say to you, i am grateful for the time that you put in every month to educate non-profit radio listeners in small and midsize non-profits thank you so much. Amy really means a lot to me. Thank oh, my god. It’s. My pleasure to get to share. Cool. Thanks. You give us. We just got a minute or so. Give us something you’d like to share. Well, one thing that i was thinking about that i will not put any any political commentary around, but i was reflecting earlier this morning about being on the show, talking about social media five years ago. And would we have ever thought five years ago that we would have politicians using the same tools that organizations are using right, like, five years ago, it was such a difference reality when it came to that, and now it’s normal, that articles would be quoting a tweet or a facebook post or facebook live stream, you know, from from d c i think it’s really interesting what that will mean going forward? Yeah, i think five years ago, politicians were just kind of figuring out whether twitter is something they should put their name on, is it? Is it safe for me to be associated with this platform now? It’s zits fundamental and you’re way behind if you’re not, you know? Yeah, i mean, we have, you know, elected officials using facebook live stream when there, you know, doing presentations on the floor, how does that change their relationship to their constituents? I think i think it would mean a lot. Get shifted pretty quickly. Okay, cool. Wait, what did you have something you want to know? We got it. Okay, we gotta let me go and we’re happy. Three. Thank you, thank you so much. Thanks for being part of the show. Amy. Of course. Thanks, amy, and we got to go to a break. When we come back, we’ve got got more giveaways. We got live. Listen, love podcast, pleasant she’s, an affiliate, affections. You gotta hang around, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation. Top trans sounded life that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i am his niece, carmela. And i am his nephew, gino. Ah! My niece’s name is carmela. Come on, that was carmela and gino metal, niece and nephew there. Now they’re not yet there. Now thirteen and eleven, they’re italian. Let’s, give something right there. A little talent, let’s. Give something away. I got some more cure a coffee. Um and this time it’s going to seth perlman. Ah he’s at s j perlman p r l m a n and he tweeted better, brighter, bolder broadcasts for those who give back yeah, you know that’s an attorney that’s, that’s that’s about what you’re gonna get. You know, i know it’s great just writing for a living. No such problem not very good and i’m grateful for him tweeting out and using the hashtag non-profit radio three fifty for today’s show. So we’re sending him a pound of bolder kira coffee for seth perlman. Claire cura coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee dean’s. With every cup of cure, you join our effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities around the world. We are a direct trade coffee company with direct impact brought directly to you, creating organics miles beyond the cup. Cura coffee dot com your coffee dot com love them. Thank you so much, cura, for sponsoring those two giveaways and we got a grand prize to give. Away the grand prize is going to cheapen cole she’s at non-profit chapin and she tweeted for today’s show congrats to tony martignetti on celebrating non-profit radio three fifty seven years of enriching inspiring content on an amazing podcast exclamation mark thank you! Thank you so much. We got the grand prize for you and that is a seven part webinar training siri’s sponsored by pursuant are our sponsor. I hope they’re not at their sponsoring. Too many eyes not distribute the sponsorship dollars too broadly. I mean, don’t forget non-profit radio for god’s sake. Claire, what about that? What about that seven port? Serious? Well pursue it is proud to sponsor a seven part webinar siri’s with some of the world’s top fund-raising experts, including gael perry from fired-up fund-raising the donor relations guru lynn wes for simon scribe er from change fund-raising leah eustis s f r ee and founder of blue canoe see change strategies founder mark rovner and a rachel muir c f r ee what’s that stand for cfr certified fund-raising executive and then there is also a c f r ee what’s that advanced certified fund-raising and then there’s and then there’s double advance. D a c f r double advanced, which and then it has an asterisk at the end too. And then you drop a footnote at the bottom of the page and it says that you’re super sort of fundchat yes, so go for the cfr, which i just made up. In fact, it looks like dale perry. Looks like cal perry just joined us on now. Hey, just join us on facebook. Hello, gail pantry. So joined lisa martin game and joined hello, lisa. Jeff lane joined wow, let’s vote for lots of friends from and vot nor the value altum pan high school. Thank you so much, jeff. Lisa um, panda reso mary-jo chamberlain didn’t realize this show had so much math. Now, this is a special because it’s got a three, five zero in the title. So not to worry come back and not a lot. Nothing so much math every time greg rajic am i going to saying no, no, i was left thinking you did mind you don’t mind my lip sync when you were singing it all now and listen if you want to sing harmony like you know what does that mean? I have jack in jail, jack in jail, not proper radio jock in jail, i don’t know. Not sure harmony is normally the lyrics is that what the lyrics is now it’s like when you sing, when people sing together, one sings like the team, the melody and the harmonies, like another part, like the background, or sometimes what’s the lyrics what’s that what’s that i hear the words that’s, the word zoho fancy way to say it works the melodies, the tune this is why i have drug in jail. Um, i like to write the words first and then i do the lyrics after let’s do live listen alone using one minute. So what? The end of the show home? My god, no, no, alright, live! Listen love, i can’t do i can’t doing languages look at this live love! I’ve got to get out besides everybody on facebook, shalem, malaysia, seoul, south korea padano dune yano, italy thanks for being with us. Italy, brazil, austria, germany non-cash yang, china let’s bring it into the u s new york, new york multiple in new york city, potomac. Marilyn brooklyn, new york. Stuart scott stein, who hails from oakland. California. Madison, wisconsin south orange, new jersey. Swan’s bar in north carolina, whoa! Swan’s morrow, mendham north, new jersey, woodbridge, new jersey. New winds or new york. Tampa, florida st louis, missouri hyre hobson, houston, texas live listener love i got into the ophelia affection before you cut me off. Sam, i am and fm stations throughout the country. So glad you’re with us. It’s the affiliate affections. Thank you for being part of the show and the podcast pleasantries. I’ve got to go out to the over twelve thousand podcast listeners. I am grateful you are with us. Sam is cutting me off. I wish i could be more effusive. We got to go. Duitz snusz stein. Claire meyerhoff. Thank you so much for being with you. Thank you. Thank you. Being with me for three. Fifty next week. Personalized philanthropy. Steve myers wants your fund-raising to be seriously, really donor-centric he’s with me for the hour. If you missed any part of today’s show where i beseech you, as i do every week find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling. The fundraisers we b e spelling dotcom are creative producers. Claire meyerhoff sam league rules is the line producer shows social media’s by susan chavez. Our music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook, facebook but andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane. Toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell you put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for July 21, 2017: Look Good To Creditors & What Boards Get Wrong

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Paula Park: Look Good To Creditors

Loan? Credit line? Bond issue? Paula Park reveals how to impress creditors when you’re knocking on their door for money. She’s senior vice president at BankUnited.

 

 

 

Gene Takagi: What Boards Get Wrong

Gene Takagi

You may have heard rumors that your board isn’t perfect. We’ll run through the most glaring offenses you need to look out for. Gene Takagi is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent get excited for next week it’s our three hundred fiftieth show seventh anniversary i’ll say more in a few minutes and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into psych ataxia if i tried to focusing on the idea that you missed today’s show look good to creditors loan credit line bond issue pull a park reveals how to impress creditors lenders when you’re knocking on their door for money, she’s senior vice president at bank united and what boards get wrong? You may have heard rumors that you’re bored isn’t perfect. We’ll run through the most glaring offenses you need to look for. Jean takagi is our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group i’m tony take two, sixty nine and three fifty, but not four hundred nineteen. Responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com my pleasure to welcome first time guests to the show pullup park she’s. Senior vice president responsible for new business development in the non-profit hyre ed and healthcare sectors at bank united’s commercial banking she’s, a banking industry probono over twenty five years of experience focusing most of her career on the banking needs of tax exempt organizations before bank united, she was with wells fargo bank. You can email paula she’s offering her email. People are at bank united that dot com welcome polish pork high thank you. I’m very excited to be on the three hundred and forty nine forty nine that’s. Amazing, thank you very much. It’s almost set seven years called seven wow, seven years what’s one week between friends, right, seven years. Thank you very much. Um, yeah, i don’t know if i’ve had, uh i don’t know if we’ve had a bank around before. I think you might be our first banker. We’ve talked about financial things, but we’ve had, uh, more investment advisors you’ve had, you know, invite investors. We certainly had accountants on you. Might be the first banker zoho that’s. Exciting. Three forty nine. Right? Right. That’s like a low percentage. I feel i’m in the one percent you’re in the europe urine the point o o one. Yes. Okay, so we want to look good for creditors. White let’s. Just make something explicit. Just in case there are maybe or eggs that i haven’t thought about this. Why is it advantageous for them to borrow money? Well, you know, there’s. A lot of reasons for borrowing money. And first, i’d like to say that these air my opinions and up the opinions of my bank. Okay. Okay. Disclaimer. Thank you. So, you know, it helps you expand the reach of your own money. So not every organization can afford to do everything they need to do today. But, you know, do you have a long term risk repayment show source for a short term needs that’s a great reason to borrow. So you want an asset that will last you for the rest of your life. But you don’t have all the money today, okay? Like real estate. Like real estate. But you have the cash flow to support that. Maybe you want to think about borrowing, maybe it’s a great alternative to renting. Ah, and also non-profits use it to help them with their seasonality of their cash flows. Okay, that would be a credit line. Yes, and cried. Um, one of the purposes. Do you see clients coming to you for borrowing? Yeah. I mean, it’s, mostly capital and cash flow. Sometimes we bridge capitol campaigns. So again, back to this that, you know, you have pledges, but they’re going to come in over ten years. But you could buy that asset today if somebody will finance those pledges. Okay, so if there’s the right kind of documentation against those pledges, right? Like, if they’re biting their legally binding, right? I guess that would be part of your due diligence, and they allow lending. You have to let them, you know, they have to say in them that you could borrow against. Okay. All right. We’ll get to the details. All right. Cool. So so you have this future basically receivables? Yes. And you could borrow against them. And under the right terms? Yes. Okay. All right. All right. So it’s, mostly for assets and credit lines. Cash flow is mostly assets and cash flow. Okay, cool. Well, sam, just hand me the list of live listeners were bursting with live listeners who want to hear about looking good to creditors. Okay, we’ll get to the live. Listen, love that comes later. Okay. Okay. So, what should we think about before we approach a creditor lender and start an application or even to start inquiry? What do we need to have in line first? Yeah. I mean, i think you want to get your story together. You want to understand yourself and why you’re approaching them what you’re asking them for, you know, is there collateral? Can you offer collateral? You want to understand your own finances, and you have to be able to explain them to a bank in a way that they can understand wth? Um, okay, so we can’t just voice the whole bunch of documents on you and let you sort through it. Yeah, i know that’s an awful approach that does happen. And that tends to be the last thing you pick up. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t you throw a whole bunch of random things, really? Organize it. Think about your approach. Think about what you want to tell folks about yourself. Um, if you have a compelling story about yourself, tell it. And you have to be able to tell the story. Behind your numbers, because if you can’t tell it, nobody else can understand, okay, so you’re going to ask is this is this now is this? We’re like an initial phone call just like inquiry call i call up and say, you know, we’re thinking we have a cash flow issues, you know, we’re thinking of fifty thousand dollars credit line would be valuable for us, right? I could that would help us make payroll when you know things like that make our rent payments, et cetera, eyes this in an initial call, or do i need to have these things in line before i even call you and say, i’m thinking about doing this? Are you able to help? Yeah, i mean, i love asking questions, so don’t expect that the person on the other end of the line isn’t gonna have a ton of questions there are even in the usual cold, even in the initial call try to feel it out and see if it’s something you’re interested in or not, um and get an idea of what they’re looking for. Why, you know how they’re going to pay you back? That would be part of the initial conversation, because if it’s something you know you can’t help somebody with you don’t want to spend too much time on your trying to feel it our right. You’re beginning contrary, maybe the popular opinion. You’re not just throwing money at every organization that comes because you because it helps you make money, right know now you know. Okay. There’s due diligence. There’s a lot. I do know. How are you going to repay? All right. So how are we going to repay? I mean, if we need to borrow, how do we repay? Well, so, you know, there’s there’s. A couple of different ah, ways to do that. One is, obviously you have excess cash flow every year. So on a long term repayment, you know that extra hundred thousand dollars you have every year goes to pay the term long town. Okay. Okay. With, you know, with the capital campaign, you play it down, you pay it down, it’s the pledges come in and for lines it’s around your seasonality. So you know your your contract started. You perform the service now, it’s. Three months later. And you’re starting to get paid lines when i was in. College lines meant something different. I am not referring to the white lines now. No white lies a credit line. He’s a credit local. Just making sure. Yes, so would credit lines it’s based on your seasonality. So wants your money starts coming in from your government sources. You should be able to pay those back down, okay? Or maybe your donors, donors or your biggest and, you know, whatever that is. It’s it’s lines are meant to be drawn down and repaid and drawn down and repaid over the course of the year, and most of them have a thirty day cleanup. So you’re not supposed to use them for thirty consecutive days. Oh, meaning thirty days you’re supposed to be paid off within thirty days within it. Within thirty days of every year consecutively you have to pay a line of credit town. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, keep about my organization. Can’t keep a balance. No, the idea is to show us that we’re not your permanent working capital, that we’re just a temporary solution. Otherwise, that usually shows evidence of a larger problem. Yeah, because i say all right, right. If there’s always a balance, then the credit line isn’t the right vehicle for you, right? There’s always a balance because, yeah, you have a systemic issue usually. Ok, which is you’re you’re going to try to get at before issuing the line, right? I try to figure that out. First poker. Sometimes things aren’t as visible. Okay, we’re gonna talk about that. We’ll get more detail. Right? So we got we got to go away for our first break for a couple minutes, and then we come back. Of course, paul and i’m gonna keep talking about looking good to creditors. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy. Dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Uh, paula okay, um, so now we’ve progressed past. We’ve gotten past our initial inquiry call, okay? And we’re still viable. Yes, we haven’t. Slobbered we understand our financials. Oh, how would you want to see you? So when you say understand your financials on what you’re looking for, what kind of explanation? I mean, you know, numbers tell a story and what we want to hear the story behind the story. So we want to understand, you know, what you’re doing out there, you know, how you’re helping people, but also how your funding helping people, what your cash flow cycles like, you know, why you’re goingto borrow you know, you’re you’re building a new homeless shelter? Why do you need it for how many people are going to stay in there? How do you how are you going to pay it back? You know, um, you know, how do you budget? How do you work towards your budget? I the one of the my pet peeves is when somebody tells me they don’t track their budget, that scares me. Oh, that’s, terrible ally, i admit that. To a potential lender. Yeah, i’ve had that several time. We don’t track our budget. We don’t track to our budget and money. And yeah, we don’t do internal financial statements. We don’t track to our budget, right? That’s about that’s a bad sign? Yeah. That’s a that’s, a big red flag right there. It’s like, how do you know what you’re doing if you don’t keep track, right? Yeah. How do you know? How do we know we’re going to get paid back-up wi calendar if if you’re not if you’re operating from a budget. So at the end of the year, you figure out if you made it or not. Yeah, december thirty first. Yeah. Scary. Scary. It’s bad. We shouldn’t be operating that way, but that’s systemic. I mean, that there’s a there’s. A problem with board oversight there? Yes. What is not executing its fiduciary duty? Okay, i don’t know if jean takagi is listening, but he and i are gonna talk about some of the things boards get wrong. That’s one of them? Yeah. Okay, now. All right. So next step durney. What is the next? How would you define the next? So so what? I usually do is i gather financial data. So i asked for three years of audited financial state man’s your current year today how you’re tracking to your budget, you know, some sort of a numeric picture of how you’re going to pay me back. You know, what’s the funds flow if it’s aline what? Your cash flow cycle looks like that’s. Another red flag when somebody says, i don’t know what my cash flow cycle looks like. Um, you know, what’s your plan to pay me back to cash flow cycle well, that’s, your receivable cycle. So most organizations, especially government funded, have a very typical we know. Yes. Okay. All right. So we know, on the end of the quarter, we were very rich, and then we draw it down from the end of the quarter. Because our government pays us, the state sends me. It sends us to check every quarter, and that sustains us for the three months and right. And then we have other revenue sources, like events. And then we have individual donors account for right. Thirty percent of our revenue like that. I mean, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s it and you. Show me your cycle s i collectibe bunch of financial dad and then what i like to do is come visit, meet in person, see what you look like, see where you work here, what you sound like in person and, you know, asking a lot of questions and again have you tell me your story? How can we impress you now now you’re we’ve given the documents now coming on site, right? Right? How can we impress you so that you will give us the loan? Whatever it is that we’re that we’re looking for? Yeah, i mean, first of all, i always bring somebody with me and they’re usually the credit person, one of the credit people, so if you don’t impress them, does that mean they’re the ones who make the decision date? They either make the decision or influence the decision, okay? And you know, if they’re not impressed, that’s it but the end of the line and how to impress them. So you know again, you tell us your financial story. You tell us how you’re going to pay us back. You tell us about what you dio and how you do it. If you have a great program that you can show us that that’s going to really impress us. That always helps a lot. Ok, so show off our facility. Oh, yeah. Even if it’s not directly related to our loan. Yes, absolutely. Okay, you know, bring important people. Bring the cfo. Bring the executive director. Boardmember bring aboard matter-ness boardmember i love when they bring boardmember bring a boardmember show how committed everybody is, you know, talk about why they’re there and how much they love it. And, you know, it’s and the personal impression means a lot. You know, if you leave a meeting and you don’t trust the people you spoke with, they don’t sound articulate. They were confusing. You know, the chances of getting the loan get lower and lower. What about its summertime? Okay, if i show up at this meeting shorts and flip flops. Yeah, shorts and flip flops are a very bad idea. I’ve had it happen. Birkenstocks, you name it. Cut off jean shorts. You know the bank for god’s? Yeah. Think about your audience. You know, even if you have casual fridays, you should probably hold off on showing me your casual fridays until i know you better invite you for monday through thursday. Yeah. Invite me monday through thursday if you don’t want unless we’re doing a barbecue sacrifice your casual friday. Yeah, yeah, but don’t turn up in your casual friday close. I want to bring my credit people it doesn’t mean they’re in suits and dresses. Yeah, we just sweat it out and suits and you’re in your flip flops. They feel insulted. Okay, what else? Anything else? Tip of ways we can impress you. Tips inside of these the pro tips. I mean, you know, the pro tips. I guess one of the things we talked about was pricing hot off the show. But pricing bad banks, you know, come up with a score card on you. They basically take all your data and important into a financial model. And we come up with a risk rating for you and it’s. A number, man. Every bank has a different range, but the idea is the same. And and the number we come up with for you goes into usually some sort of a pricing model. And based on the number your price changes like there’s no, your interest rate. You interest rate, right. So the mohr um risk-alternatives and some of that’s quantitative. So you can’t really change that, it’s. Just a number driven there’s a portion that’s, qualitative and that’s. Where impression and how you sounded in how your story sounded. That all goes into the quantitative piece. Quality. Yes, qualitative piela that that moves your number around. What would you say that proportion is quantitative qualitative in deciding this risk rating? I mean, quantitative hyre okay, but sixty, forty years? Seventy, thirty, thirty percent. I can influence about a third that’s. A lot of my rate by putting on a good show having good present that making a good presentation, right? Right. I mean, there’s, nothing you khun dio, if your numbers are never going to work, there’s nothing you can do to change that. Okay, but if your numbers do work there’s a lot you could do to move, move it around and and put yourself in a different place. Okay, so, you know, i think that’s an important thing to consider is is what impression you’re leaving people with, you know, think about before you have before you call before you meet. What impression am i? Trying to give you what are some of the numbers that go into the these these? Yeah, that go into the risk lady. Yeah, s so what we do is we take your you typically it’s three years. We take your last three years of audits, and we lined them up against each other so we can look at trends. And we re like ratio analysis. We like, first of all, we do a percentage for everything. So revenues is, you know, made up of seventy percent this and ten percent bad expenses. We break every line item into a number and a percent. And then we blind him up so we can say things like, why did your program express spence? Increase relative to your revenue? Why was it twelve percent last year and this year, it’s? Thirty ah, wei take numbers and we pour them into a whole bunch of ratio analysis. Leverage is an important one. It’s basically debt to net assets. All right, we’re getting into jargon jail territory now? Yeah, you just defined leverage. That’s. Good it’s. A ratio of debt to net asset that to net assets. We look at liquidity numbers, which can be all different. It could be a gross numbers. Something like cash and i’m restricted investment. You can be a ratio like sabat current assets minus current liabilities. That could be current assets divided by current liabilities. So there’s a whole bunch of different numbers to look at. And then they think the most important one is debt service coverage ratio here in jargon. Jill. Yeah. Yeah, i know, but i can tell you thie d s c r the common. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, your operating access plus interest appreciation operating access that we have to find that. Alright. Wait. All right. So let’s, just leave it with dug a hole here. Alright, jargon, but you get me out. Get me out of this hole. I mean, this dark hole, all right, basically shows us how you can pay us back that we have the capacity to pay you back. Yeah, it has to be better than one. If you want more detail in that email. Female polar at people back tonight at dot com. Okay, i got out of that slow. Okay. So, what’s all right, so you’re going toe. You’re doing deep evaluation. This is your your due diligence, right? God, quantitative and qualitative. What are some red flags? That that, yeah, what is a red flag? Yeah. I mean, you know, you’re looking for big, big red flags are ah, negative net assets. So negative equity negative equity means you you own less than you owe you. Owe more than you. Everything, including our copier are if we owned property, whatever all our assets yet or less than our liability. Yeah. That’s, that’s a big no, no, but, you know, this debt service number we’re talking about is below weinger okay, skip over that. Okay? You’re okay, you’re below one the one that’s bad that’s bad. You’re operating continually at a loss like year after year after year after year here on it’s getting worse, okay, you know, so the trends are getting worse. You know that? The number that you’re looking at two pay your backs getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Right? So your risk the risk of this money that you’re going to be lending is rising and rising, right? What? It may just be so high that when that we can’t even help you. Right? Right. All right, red flags. Any other red flags? Birkenstocks, you’ve got a deal. Killer it’s not a deal killer. I’ve done, i’ve done deals for cookie people and strange outfits, but but there, but they paid more. They might have paid for that race probably were hyre yes, stocks, birkenstocks will cost you, you know? I mean, they’re they’re lovely, but not not, not when you’re meeting the credit people, right? And if you go out to meet with people and for burke, they don’t understand what they’re talking about and they can’t tell you why they’re expenses. Air hyre this year, and they don’t manage to a budget and you walk in and the ceiling’s falling down, you’re like, i don’t know if i want to do that. What if we’re lending for renovations because our ceiling is falling down? Well, that would be we’re borrowing. That would be a different story. But if this is like your not that, you know, your i’m in for working capital and you know, the book just fell on my head. I’m a little worried, okay? Yeah, but you have deeper issues beyond. Yeah, there’s more keeping your program’s going in. Your staff paid yes within which these programs and staff are residing is not stable, right? Your buildings falling apart. Yeah, this is fun. And you? Oh, well, let’s, get back to some of the fiduciary duties that the board should be overseeing. What if there’s excessive compensation, right? I mean, you know, there’s not a hard and fast rule for executive compensation. But i do think that if you see stuff that’s really out of the norm, it does raise a big red flag. And one time, for example, i was looking at the nine. Ninety of social service that their financial statement there ought. It looked a little odd, so i went to the nine. Ninety to see if i could dig a little deeper because there’s. A lot of information in there. And i found out thea president, ceo and cfo. Were husband, wife and son. Oh, no. The social service was it’s operating at a loss, but the three of them together made over two million dollars a year. And the headquarter hyre? Yeah, hop on. The headquarters was being rented from the president. Man, i didn’t do that loan, right? Yeah. That’s. Egregious. Yeah. That’s. Great. Where’s, the board i don’t know. And it’s it’s, you know, it’s, a founder run entity. So, yeah, that has to sell that story. Yeah, and i won’t tell you who but it’s when you know very marriage. One wife and son. Yeah, and the three of them are making two million dollars over that’s a lot for a social service. Especially one that’s operating at a deficit. Right? Him? Yeah. So, you know, i look for things like that. Google, sir. Oh, you mentioned. Oh, okay. You mention financial statements, flandez these come with a lot of footnotes? Yes. When i was in law school, i had a professor who he was so keen on the footnote being so important that the answer to an exam turned on whether you read the footnote or not. Yes, absolutely right or wrong in big way. Whether you if you didn’t read the footnotes. Footnotes i read, i actually i read the footnotes first before i even look at the financial numbers because their stories in there because that’s, the football i love the footnotes. Yeah, there’s. A lot of stuff in there. It’s. Very interesting. Um, all the good stuff’s in the footnotes if we’ve got stuff buried in the footnotes that we would rather you didn’t see? Should we just let you read it on your own? Or should we come out clean and say, you’re going to see cem, some improprieties or some, you’re going to see some red flags? Let me talk about these shoes. In other words, should we reveal it, or shall we leave it to you two? Maybe you won’t find it. Yeah, it’s always better off to come up front with things make cerini find it, maybe we find it and and you know what it is and and and if it’s on google, if i can google it, you have to tell me, because if it’s out there, i google search everybody everything yeah, bad press um and if it’s out there on google, everybody knows so china hide it it’s better to just tell you story a pride. It always sounds worse when you dig it up on your own. Absolutely well, that’s. Like being ten years old, it’s. Much better to go to mom and say you did something bad. Then have her discover that you fed the broccoli to your dog. Right? Right, it’s. A deal killer. When you find something on google and it’s egregious for me, it was liver, but i have cut it into little bits at a smother it with ketchup. I always say, if you covered cutting little bits and spread it around the plate, it looks like a lot less right, right. At least hide it under the mashed potatoes. Yeah, hide it or just diffuse it when it’s dense on the plate. That’s when? It’s scary, right? Just just last night, this came up, somebody cooked me liver, even smothered with onions. I just i’m not a liver fan myself, but you got to come clean. He gotta come tell up front. You know, we don’t like liver here in this organization, right? That’s, right? And we want you to know and here’s why? And here’s but here’s what we do instead we have other sources of iron right supplement. Wei have other sources of good protein. That’s right? We’ve finished. They were in vegan. They were even begin here. Yeah, there are good. So alright. Come clean. That’s. What you’re saying? Come clean. Dafs piela all right. Um anything else? All right, so now we’re getting to this, the evaluation, the number’s sounds like we’re just reduced to a bunch of spreadsheets cells, right. While we tell you story too, we tell you story and writing. Oh, so you tell us your story. We tell you, we tell our credit people your story. Okay. Okay. So are you? Basically is your role basically too be an advocate for the would you put it that way and advocate for the non-profit is that too strong of a navigator? As long as that they’re worth advocating for. Okay. Okay. Until they’re not your advocate until they’re not worth advocating for. Yes, absolutely. So you’re the liaison. I’m really a front face of the credit organization. Credit institution, bank united on dh. You’re working between the organization of the credit right in the middle person? Absolutely. I kind of represent both to each other. Anything else we can do to get the best rate possible? We just have, like, a minute and a half left. What could you d’oh? Besides, have great numbers tell you. Good story. Where the right clothes? Show me your show, mia programs. Okay, alright. Stuff recovered. Yeah, i can’t think of anything else in that case tell me why you love. You’ve been in banking and lending twenty for over twenty five years. Why do you love this work? Yeah, i mean, i’m here for the not-for-profits so i’ve always been a not for profit. I started lending to not-for-profits in nineteen, ninety and i’ve been hooked ever since. I love to be involved in the projects i love to be involved in the missions i love to meet the people i’ve set on board. I’ve done volunteer work. I’ve worked. It not-for-profits too and i just i just want to help the the not-for-profits helped the universe. Our cold is to go to that to go to the ribbon cutting oh, i love going to the river cutting that’s like your shining moment of glory when all the all that work you did paid off for everybody. Yeah, so that’s fun. We loved the ribbon cutting and we try to bring some of our bosses to the ribbon cuttings too, and let them see how great we are, where their money did something good for a change. Outstanding cool part. Thank you. Thank you. Ballpark. Senior vice president at bank united park at thank united dot com. Thank you again. Thank you so much. Jean takagi and what boards get wrong is coming up first pursuant they have ah, well, they have something, but you have seen a lot of midyear fund-raising reports now we’ve we’ve crossed june thirtieth and benchmarks being discussed everywhere, you know, whether you’re living up to what the community is doing or not, but one of the most important trends and how do you make the most of the best sense out of them for your organization? What if you’re not hitting the benchmarks that other people have created on dh? How do you keep rising above if you’re if you’re ahead? That’s what the next webinar comes in for from pursuant it’s, the state of fund-raising midyear checkpoint with ceo trent riker he’s going to be on the show next week for the three fifty and senior vice president jennifer abila they’re gonna help you push through your third and fourth quarters if you can’t make it live on july twenty fifth, watch archive either live or archive go to pursuing dot com click resource is then webinars. We’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers make millennial money that’s my own that’s my own alliteration that’s not there so don’t don’t blame alex queer. We’d be spelling for that, but listeners have been talking to alex. I know he’s the ceo there he’s also going to town next week and you could be next. You could be a b you could be you could be next. Look at this. What is brilliant mind since that what? You’re witnessing it at work right now. Um, b next, check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and then pick up the phone for pizza. Talk to alex and look, look what his number is. Nine to nine to two four bees. Okay, see, i’m not the only one now the time for tony’s. Take two. Sixty nine and three. Fifty. I’ve got a new video. Feels good in sixty nine. Get the filth out of your mind. Get it out! This is a family show. Although i don’t know anyone under twenty one. Why anyone under twenty would listen. But in fact, if you are under twenty one and you can prove it to me, i’ll make you listen for the week. Get me at tony martignetti sixty nine is a new position for me, it’s. Hard it’s a hard position. Watch the video and it will all become very clear. Next week is the three hundred fiftieth non-profit radio we’ve got all the regulars that iran, including jeanne kaguya, was coming on very shortly hyre meyerhoff she’s gonna be with me the ceo’s from pursuing and we’d be spelling live music with scott stein he’s going to play our theme song, of course, cheap red wine and another and we’ve got giveaways from pursuant and your coffee. How do you enter the wind post your most creative? Congrats on the three fiftieth use the hashtag non-profit radio three fifty post will pick the best ones those will be the winners here’s that hash tag non-profit radio three fifty you’ll find my sixty nine and three fifty videos at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two jean takagi. He, uh you know, he’s been listening to tony take two he’s been on for a couple minutes. You know who he is? He’s, the managing attorney of neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit law block dot com and he is the american bar association’s. Twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer you’ll find him at gee tak gt a k jean takagi. So great to have you back. Welcome back. Thanks, tony. Great to be back. My pleasure. We’re talking about some, um, some mistakes that boards make. What, uh, what brings this to your attention? Well, it’s been in the news a lot on dh governance on every level in every sphere of ah, our country has been coming to a lot of attention and whether things were done properly up on the top or not, um, has become a big issue, and i think there’s a common saying the tone is set at the top and the tone of proper governance on non-profit boards really sets the whole tone for the organization and when you don’t have boardmember that air prepared to set that right tone, there are there are problems that follows, and those are the things that get into the news, okay? And we were just touching on just a couple of those with with paula park a few minutes ago, some talking about some of the fiduciary issues fiduciary duties that board members might be ignoring if they’re if they’re not. Properly prepared for, you know ah, credit application sabat okay, but aside from that let’s, see, what would you like, tio? What would you like to start with you? Pick you pick somewhere. We got to get a bunch to go through. But you pick something to start. I feel like i always dictate to you. You choose. Okay. Let’s do allowing. No, i’m sorry. Go ahead. What would you like to do? Well, i could actually let’s start with sort of conflict of interest transactions and that’s where boardmember sze decide that they want to sell services to the non-profits on whose board they sit and, you know, some some sort of say, all of that should not be allowed. And with private foundations there’s ah, much stricter rule that prohibits most of those transactions. But with public charities, it’s usually not sort of absolutely prohibited in some cases, a conflict of interest times action is actually to the organization’s benefit. Like kinda boardmember says, you know, i’ll give you rent at half of the market rate on you. And you can use my my offices to run the organization. That might be a very good deal for a public charity, but where board get in trouble is where one member of the board says, well, you know, i’ll sell you these advertising services for the organization, and my usual rate is five hundred dollars an hour, but i’ll charge you four hundred dollars an hour, and maybe that is what you know that person’s rate is when they’re selling him tto fortune five hundred companies. But for this little one hundred thousand dollars a year non-profit a four hundred dollar an hour rate for advertising is probably excessive. And if the rest of the board just blindly goes along that’s as well he’s giving us a twenty percent discount let’s go with it that gets boards in trouble. Yeah, okay. Would that fall under that eyes that a conflict, conflict of interests? Yes. I mean, there may be several laws where it could be a problem, but on sort of the federal level on the federal tax level, along with being a five a one c three organization and the public charity, you’re not allowed to engage in on access, benefit transaction where somebody like a boardmember gets an excessive payment. And if that happens, what? The irs could do would say, hey, you know, that was excessive, really, nobody should be paying a charity this side should not be paying more than let’s say, two hundred dollars an hour for those services, so you were overcharging two hundred dollars per hour and what we’re going to make you do, as the irs says, we’re going to say you have to return that excessive portion back to the charity, and then on top of that, we’re going to charge you a tax for violating that rule, and that will be twenty five percent of the excessive amount that you charged. And if you don’t fix that within the tax year, we’re going to charge you a two hundred percent penalty under the mountain, all right away, if any boardmember approved that transaction and they knew or he really should have known it to be excessive, we’re going to hit them with a penalty as well. Oh, my goodness. Okay. And i think you and i have talked about this not recently, but xs benefit transactions. I think we’ve covered this. This yeah, and then very i love that you point out the possibility of individual fiduciary penalties and my saying individual money, penalties for the board members, personal penalties. Yeah, really, really rare. But, you know, if if boards look like they colluded, teo benefit one of their fellow board members and weren’t really looking after the best interests of the organization, they can be imposed. Okay, okay, let’s go to aa, not preventing misappropriation, our misuse of the of the ah, the money’s that come in or the other other assets of the organization. Yeah, i mean, that’s a great segue way because one misuses overpaying a boardmember really is overpaying anybody. So maybe you’ve got a friend. And, you know, that friend is offering this great deal to the organization according to your friend, but maybe it isn’t such a great deal. Or maybe it’s for services that the organization really doesn’t even need. So he’s saying, you know, i’ve got this great storage facility. You guys should rent it, and you know, i’ll give you this this great deal on it, and so the organization goes ahead on, rents it but actually never uses it because they never needed that storage facility. Well, that would be kind of a waste of assets and potentially, a diversion of those charitable assets to benefit somebody’s friend. And again that back and get people in a lot of trouble about cyber security risks what’s the board’s responsibility there? Yeah, cybersecurity czar really hot button issue right now and then we’re seeing it everywhere from, uh, people getting their social security numbers stolen or credit card number stolen and identity theft associated with that. So when non-profits are collecting what they call personally identifiable information information that can be associating with a specific individual, they’ve got certain rules that apply, and these are specific to the states. So there’s certain rules that apply that say, you’ve got to really maintain and protect this information, and if it gets out, if your sites that contain this information are breached and those things that released a lot of states say you’ve gotta notify the individual who’s data has been breached and taken so that they can take steps to protect themselves. So really big deal now you you will have already breached the law if you didn’t create secure systems preventing certain breeches and hackers from getting at that data. And if you fail to notify possibly donor’s information, for example, or some buyers of your services or goods? If you don’t notify them of that reaches well, you could be violating another law. So a lot going on there in cyber security. Actually, another really interesting one was recently there was some ransom where that that was came out and hit not only for-profit organizations but some non-profits is well and ransom. Where is basically where somebody hijacks your site and some of some of your site, maybe for processing donations or for selling goods and services. And so you really rely on having them up every day while the hacker takes over your site says unless you pay me let’s, say, you know, ten thousand dollars by tomorrow, i’m going to keep your site hacked and it may take you, you know, even with your experts a week, two weeks to recover it, and maybe you’re gonna lose a lot more money if you do that now, what do you do? Yeah, we just had that nationwide within about the past, not not not just nationwide internationally with in the past, what, six weeks or so? See, i think the wannacry ransomware i don’t know if it’s called a virus or something else. But yeah, it was widely prevalent in a lot of organizations, and organizations have to figure out how to deal with that and it’s best to figure those things out before it actually happens, rather than after the fact we just had a guest with in the past. I’d say that in the past two months, mark last night was shine mark shine. I think, talking about cyber security on how to ensure against it, the different policies that are available. Teo, to protect your organization in the event of a breach s so you could listen to you could look back at that it’s just with i’m sure it was mark shine just in the past couple months, okay, let’s. See, um, let’s. I do want to get teo another, another popular blawg, not not as popular as non-profit law block dot com, but we’ll we’ll give ellis card or a shout in a couple minutes. How about yeah, investments what’s the what? I don’t think you and i have talked about this one, the board’s responsibility around the investment policy statements of the organization? Sure. So, you know, even some smaller charities, you know, they got reserves and order some of them anyway. If they’re lucky, enoughto have not have to live sort of day by day, have some reserves on dh. They may want invest those reserves rather than just keep it in in a checking account, for example. And if you do have assets for investment was a charity. There are state laws that are associated with prudently investing those foreign investor axe. Yeah, on dh those are really important to pay attention to so some charities and some have come to us for service. You know, when when the market is it is it’s hot on the market has been pretty good lately, you know, they’re also served deals out there, and some are like going no, you know, we would like to invest all of our our money in this hedge, but, uh, and they may not even know what a hedge fund is. And i don’t know that anybody actually knows what a hedge fund is, because that covers so many different broad groups of investments, but they tend to be wildly speculative, meaning you could make a ton of money on them in a short period of time, and you can lose a lot of money in a very short period of time and that type of speculative investment making unless it’s part of like a prudent portfolio where maybe, like ten percent of your assets are devoted to those that are, you know, much more speculative, but ninety percent are in much more conservative investments can be a real breach if you put all your money’s in one basket, which it’s never good ideas, we’ve learned from our our parents or our kindergarten teachers. Um, you know, you’ve got to make sure that the portfolio of different investments you have is prudent, and so you’ve diversified your risks and not put it all in some wildly speculative investment, and that could be not only a breach of your fiduciary duty but reach a prudent investor rules and there’s a rule we don’t wantto get into jargon jail, you’re always about the impression that the acronym uniforms prudent management. Of institutional funds act, and it says that you have to look at different concerns when you’re investing on dh. It really talks about conservative investing in a portfolio with an eye on what your mission is as well. Gene, just give that acronym and what it stands for again, please, i talked over you sure upmifa upm i f a, the uniform, prudent management of institutional funds act. If you google upmifa and your state, you’ll find what the law is, and i think that’s in forty nine states, i think maybe pennsylvania’s the outline, hold on. All right, all right, thank you. I’ll try teo, keep my tongue civil from here on, but all right, let’s, go out for our break. When we come back, i’ve got live. Listen, love a ton, and we’ll give a shout out to another law block that you might be interested in state with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests are there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. Krauz hyre hopes could be with us next week for the three hundred fiftieth show as well. Jean takagi, listen, let’s, do the live listener love because we’re bursting here. Tampa, florida bronx, new york and if we got all five boroughs, we got multiple manhattan. We got bronx. We got staten island. Um, we have brooklyn where’s, queens, queens. Let us down. All right. We got four out of five and multiple said, multiple manhattan, woodbridge, new jersey. That’s not far. Laura, laura, laura, belinda, california live listen and love to all of you, but also to torrington, connecticut. I’ve been to torrington, that’s, a nice little town. I did some consulting there. Uh, social service agency. Torrington. And you have that that renovated theater right in downtown. I love that’s, very pretty. Minneapolis minnesota lives their love to you also new bern, north carolina and midlothian, virginia. Midlothian, midlothian live listen love. However you pronounce it let’s, go abroad. Not too many people abroad, nobody, nobody in asia, nobody at all in asia. This, i think, is the first show where there’s, nobody from asia. Wow. Okay, uh, they’ll be back. Uk? We can’t we can’t we see uk, united kingdom so we don’t know whether it’s whales or ireland or scotland or england we don’t know well, you’re in the uk so we always give always give you know you got to do the you got to recognize that there’s more than one country in the united kingdom, please and germany, good talk, live listen love all our livelong sinners on dh so of course, on the heels of that has got to be the podcast pleasantries because we’ve got over twelve thousand podcast listeners in the time shift. Thank you. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners, never forgetting them. And then, of course, the affiliate affections to our am and fm stations throughout the country. And by the way, i have four new stations to introduce next week on the three, fiftieth four brand new stations joining us throughout the country from new york, colorado to washington. I think porter stations but for the current stations listening today affections to our am and fm listeners. Thanks so much for being with us, everyone. Thank you, jean. Thank you for that indulgence. You know the thanks that you know the gratitude has got to go out, right? You know that? Absolutely. Thank you. Um okay. So let’s give a little shout out to ah, another. Another non-profit attorney ellis carter. She she she curates the charity lawyer blawg, cherry lawyer block. And you know, ellis carter. I did turn and she’s a wonderful person and a great attorney. Alice and i have had a chance to speak together and work together on the few occasions you’ve worked together too. Cool. All right. So on her block post going back, i think it’s two thousand nine there was one of her earlier poster, if not her very first post. She links to you while she mentions a bunch of your problem ideas. And i want to give a shout out to your block. Of course. Non-profit non-profit law block dot com where listeners can check out all your list of all ten because you did a post for this show, which actually you do that every week, which i always appreciate every time you’re on, you do opposed. So if you want to see the full list of jeans, go to non-profit loblaw dot com. But ellis carter has charity lawyer blawg and she’s got a couple on there. That i want to talk about, like micro managing staff are you are you comfortable talking about ellis carter’s board governance mistakes? Yeah, absolutely actually give credit to her. She came up with a list of ten, and then i just added a few more to to her list, and so she recaptured all fifteen together on her block, but she was the one who came up with micro managing staff and it’s a really important one because i think he probably seen it as well. Tony, where board members start to get involved and then go around the executive director and start to give directions to the staff. Yes, i have and creates all kinds of political trouble and reporting line trouble and yeah, yeah, but, you know, part of that can be the responsibility of the ceo to and blurring lines and, you know, having boardmember do things that maybe you’re not appropriate, like, you know, day to day tasks and things. Yeah, and so, you know, oftentimes when you, this is a kind of a growing pain for some non-profits as well, because when you’re on all volunteer non-profit organization, it is where the board members involved. With everything as well and and managing volunteers in that case. But once you start to grow up a little and have staff and haven’t executive director, the board members have to know to pull back and, you know, for one thing, boardmember should know that individually they have no inherent authority to do anything. They don’t have the authority to manage staff it’s only collectively as a board where they have authority officers like your executive director or your ceo perhaps might have the authority to give limited direction to the staff to ceo would obviously have have the ultimate authority there with respect to the staff, but just knowing where your boundaries are, it’s really important and from a liability standpoint, board members, if they start to mismanage, that could get hit with unemployment claim, which really makes up, i believe more than ninety percent of all directors and officers insurance claims our employment related and if they’re directed against boardmember themselves, and if you don’t have dino insurance boy, that that could be a huge problem for individual boardmember so they really have to be careful of that. Another one on ellis’s list is airing disagreements outside the board room and that reminds me of the very timely, like complaining about your attorney general to the new york times as an example, it just happened today airing disagreements outside the boardroom what’s the trouble there? Yeah, and obviously as a non-profit when you’re taking positions, you wantto have one position that you’re setting out to the public you don’t wantto have ah, divided ah statement that you’re giving to a public where some persons involved with the organization are on one side of an issue when other persons are other side of an issue and it looks to the public that the organization is poorly governed, poorly managed, and can’t even make up its mind on what its messages and therefore could jeopardize support. So aaron aaron, you know your disagreements outside of the boardroom, a really big problem for the organization in terms of its, you know, public relations, but also a huge, huge problem for the boards themselves because, you know, tony, if you and i were on the board together and we had a disagreement over a key issue on dh, we got a chance to discuss it, of course, when we go out you know, even if i may have disagreed with you and, you know, your side won, i’m going to be supportive of that. I might not say very much about it, but i’m definitely not going to say, well, i, you know, in in public that i disagreed with it because what happens if i start doing that is i’m a chill further board discussions, you know, if you don’t kick me out of the board for doing that, the board might find itself very, very leery of, you know, raising controversial points because you got this one person who’s going to be a blabber mouth and start teo, reframe everything and criticize you personally outside of the organization, a really big problem. The place for the robust discussion and disagreements is within the confines of the board meeting and maybe discussions that take place in committee or or even know our board members having back channel communications right privately on the phone or email, but publicly wait, where were we? Face-to-face we present one face yeah, and this along with your duty of loyalty to the organization as well, you’re supposed to act as a board member in the best interest of the organization. Not in your personal best interests. All right? Yeah. You don’t want to hurt the organization by by airing your grievances outside. Thank you very much. Looking forward to talking to you next week on the three. Fifty of jean? Yeah, i’m really looking forward to three. Fifty congratulations. Thank you so much, jane takagi you’ll find him at non-profit law block dot com and at g tak gt a k next week three fifty three five oh, how many times i have to say it, make sure you enter to win our giveaways post your most creative congrats with the hashtag non-profit medio three fifty can’t wait for that great fun! If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com we’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com our creative producers climb hyre half sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez and this fantastic cool music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and degree. Sametz buy-in what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.