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Special Episode: POC Underrepresented In Nonprofit Leadership

My Guest:

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: POC Underrepresented In Nonprofit Leadership

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld

The willingness and skills of people of color aren’t represented in leadership circles. That’s the main message coming out of Building Movement Project’s report, “Race To Lead Revisited.” We visit the report’s conclusions and recommendations with BMP’s co-director, Sean Thomas-Breitfeld.

 

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[00:01:48.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism, people of color underrepresented in non profit leadership. That’s the main message coming out of building movement projects Report. Race to Lead Revisited We visit the report’s conclusions and recommendations with BMPs co director Sean Thomas Brett felled, responsive by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO and by dot drives, raise more money, changed more lives for a free demo and free month. It’s my pleasure to welcome to the show. Sean Thomas Bright Felled. He is co director at the Building Moving Building Movement Project. He previously worked in various roles at community change, developing training programs for grassroots leaders and worked in the communications and policy departments where he coordinated online and grassroots advocacy efforts and lobbied on a range of issues including immigration reform, transportation, equity and anti poverty programs. Building movement project is at building movement, or GE, and at B L. D. I N G movement. John Thomas Bright felt Welcome to non profit radio

[00:01:51.64] spk_0:
Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:53.33] spk_1:
It’s supposed

[00:01:53.87] spk_0:
to be here with you.

[00:01:54.83] spk_1:
It’s good. It’s a pleasure. Thank you. So why don’t you start by describing the work at Building Movement Project?

[00:02:02.44] spk_0:
Sure, so building movement projects been around for over 20 years, and from our founding we’ve had three main areas of focus. One is what we call movement building, looking at how organizations collaborate, how nonprofit organizations can be part of movements for social change and social justice, and what it takes for organizations and non profit leaders to really be on the forefront of making big leading some big structural changes in our society. We’ve also looked at what we call a non profits and social change or service and social change because we think there is a particular role for human service organizations in bringing about structural and systemic change in our society and that that’s really important to support on. Also encourage organizations like that to get involved in advocacy. Listen to an uplift, the voice and on power of the communities that are being served, and then the third bucket of work has always focused on leadership, so recognizing that leading a nonprofit organization is a very hard job we’ve always looked at What does it take for leaders? But also, what does it take for non profit leadership? Thio really have aligned both the practices of leadership with the values that organizations hold. And so over the last several years, we’ve been particularly focused on issues of race and leadership in non profit organization. That’s what the race to lead work comes out of.

[00:03:41.14] spk_1:
Okay, right? And the This race to lead revisited report is really comparing a 2016 survey for the original race to lead with a 2019 survey for this report. Exactly.

[00:04:04.84] spk_0:
Yeah, so we surveyed people working in the nonprofit sector both in 2016 and 2019 on these issues of race and leadership. So this report race to lead revisited at some comparisons between the findings from 2016 and 2019 to see how the sector’s been evolving

[00:04:55.34] spk_1:
and you did have some new questions as well. We’ll have time to get to some of those, um, you talk about Well, first I got to say, I realize the contrast here I have long white hair and you have short, dark hair. We are. We know in the hair. We are. We’re not similar in hair. My God. Uh, yeah, OK, Sorry I couldn’t help notice. Um, you talk about we’re gonna have fun on non profit radio. I mean, it’s a serious subject, but we have fun nonetheless. So you talk about white advantage in the report versus white privilege? You mentioned white privilege once or twice, but predominantly. Talk about white advantage. What’s the What’s the difference there? What? What? What are you trying to say? A little different than the the more seems more common, you know, white privilege.

[00:05:05.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So what’s the term white advantage? What we’re trying to focus on is some of the structural advantages that accrue to non profit organizations based on, you know, multiple people in positions of power being white. So particularly thinking about the composition of boards and the composition of senior leadership teams. Um, because, you know, I think oftentimes the analysis is very individualistic, right? So, like, there’s an individual white person in the executive director role of the organization that only paints part of the picture on DSO we wanted to have a more complicated and nuanced analysis of what’s actually happened. An organization s O, that it became less about, like, the it one person at the top of organizational hierarchy. And think about it, uh, in a way that encompasses both the board leadership and senior staff.

[00:06:04.44] spk_1:
Okay. And then the structures as well, it seems thio less focused on an individual or individuals and mawr, uh, levers of power and processes policies.

[00:06:27.04] spk_0:
Exactly. And it also became a way thio understand and sort of unpack. Um, how, uh, sort of whiteness of organizations that, like in our sample, right, like, 45% of respondents work for organizations where both more than 75% of the board is white and more than 75% of staff and top leadership are white on. And, you know, I think that for me, that was actually somewhat startling in surprising um, And then we also saw that those organizations tend to have bigger budgets at least was being reported by the staff. Um but then, at the same time, we’re seeing that staff were reporting more negative experiences in those types of organizations compared to organizations with more diverse leadership on both the board and senior staff levels.

[00:07:29.64] spk_1:
And so the overall message that I got from this is that the power remains in boards and at the sea levels of nonprofits, and those are predominantly white. And that and that that really hasn’t changed from 2016 to 2019.

[00:07:35.24] spk_0:
Yeah, that hasn’t well, it’s hard to know because we actually didn’t ask the question in this way back in 2016. But I think that this, um, sort of puts our data in the context of some of the research that board source has done that shows that boards are overwhelmingly the majority of non profit boards are overwhelmingly white

[00:07:59.14] spk_1:
and also not reflecting the communities that they’re serving. Absolutely. Yeah,

[00:08:01.54] spk_0:
yeah, because I think what has happened is that the function of non profit boards very often is less a function of accountability to the organization’s constituency and mission on, because organizations often have a lot of responsibility for fundraising and raising the resource is for the organization to do its work. Um, that as a result of that sort of demand, organizations often have, um, prioritized recruiting from people who holds wealth in their communities and because of racial wealth gaps that tend to be white people

[00:08:41.04] spk_1:
on dhe. That’s recruiting for both leadership and volunteer position board with talking about boards and you make it very clear we’re talking about boards as well as C suite. You know, CEO, executive director level.

[00:08:54.14] spk_0:
Absolutely.

[00:08:56.24] spk_1:
So let’s go into the three. I guess main conclusions that the report identifies first one is that things really haven’t changed that much. We’ve already alluded to it. Things haven’t changed that much in the three years.

[00:09:14.44] spk_0:
Yeah, and you know, I’m not sure how surprising that should be. Um, for our sector. You know, I think the change is often particularly in organizations. When we’re talking about organizations where we’re talking about the composition of the staff, that kind of change is incremental, right? I think that what has shifted is that, particularly in the last year is much more consciousness raising much more awareness on the part of organizations that these imbalances, these inequities exist and needs to be addressed. Um, but recognizing that there is a problem is not the same thing is taking action to address the problem.

[00:10:18.34] spk_1:
So you are seeing mawr alright, consciousness raising awareness. It seems like predominantly because of the diversity equity and inclusion work that Ah lot of organizations have done. But it’s just sort of, you know, I’m I gleaned from the reports, just sort of scratching the surface. I mean, ah, lot of it is trainings that raise awareness, but we’re not seeing much action flowing from that consciousness raising.

[00:10:23.84] spk_0:
Yeah, And so one example of the increased consciousness was that in both 2016 and 2019 we asked survey respondents what impact to their race had had on their career advancement. And, uh, for white respondents back in 2016 roughly half indicated that their race. They recognize that the race had a positive impact on their career advancement. So this sort of classic recognition of white privilege that increased to two thirds of the white sample in 29 so one from half to two thirds. So you know that is e think progress, right? In terms of like people having a recognition and understanding that white privileges riel and that it’s positively the benefits of that privilege are accruing to white people in nonprofit organization. Um however, the same question also revealed that back in 2016 a third roughly of people of color felt that their own race have negatively impacted their career advancement, and that then increased almost basically half off the sample of people of color in 2019. So the increased consciousness is both, you know, I think leading people to recognize the ways that they have been disadvantaged as well as for white people the way that they have been advantaged on DSO. You know, we’re still left with this challenge. This problem. That race is clearly having an impact on people’s advancement. And so it needs to be addressed in organizations in ways that I don’t think training is sufficient. Thio thick

[00:12:04.14] spk_1:
right? But you acknowledge consciousness, raising an awareness that that is the first step. But we have a lot more, a lot, a lot further to go. I mean, you know, it’s just

[00:12:14.61] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:12:50.24] spk_1:
widely recognized that, you know, you don’t just do trainings a couple of trainings over six months and then check your box. You know d e. I is covered. Let’s move on, Thio. Let’s move on to the gala. You know it za process. It’s a journey, you know we’ve had other guests say the same thing. It takes time. Thio, uh, change the policies, the practices, the traditions Even if they’re not written down, that our advantage ing white folks over people of color, This takes time. But you gotta You’ve got to start somewhere.

[00:12:52.74] spk_0:
Yes, and I think consciousness raising is is an important and legitimate starting point.

[00:13:42.54] spk_1:
Right? And we’re just getting started, okay? It’s time for a break. Turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know this turn to is led by former journalists. So you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships, they’re gonna help you when you want to be heard so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners was an editor of the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know the non profit space they’re at turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to P. O. C. Underrepresented in non profit leadership. Are you going to do this in three years again?

[00:13:45.94] spk_0:
It’s a very good question. You know, it’s hard

[00:13:48.15] spk_1:
to

[00:13:48.28] spk_0:
know, uh, in terms of, like, capacity funding, all of those things um, but yeah, I think that it seems worthwhile to keep revisiting thes issues, given the pace of change. Um, having been pretty slow just in the time that we’ve been collecting this data.

[00:14:24.14] spk_1:
All right, Um, anything else you want to say about you know, how the the findings from 2016 are pretty similar? Uh, yeah. Continue through to 2019 before we go on to the next. Well,

[00:14:24.49] spk_0:
sure. I think the reason that we felt like it was worth restating on pointing out the similarity in in terms of the findings between 2016 and 2019 was because, um, you know, from our perspective, it was really important to state very clearly to the sector. But there are people of color who are in the pipeline that the pipeline is not necessarily the problem. Uh, there’s, I think, different metaphors that people have used unpack and try to understand what the problem is of why we’re not seeing more representative leadership at the top levels of nonprofit organizations. And our view has just been that it’s not a pipeline issue per se. There are people of color who have the skills training credentials to be in those top roles, but they face racialized barriers to actually moving into those top jobs to being hired for those top jobs. And so we just felt like it was important to remind the sector of that finding, Um and sort of not lapse back into, ah narrative that, like we need to train more people of color because somehow people of color are not ready toe lead. People of color are ready to lead, but are often too often not given the opportunity.

[00:15:38.84] spk_1:
Not only have the skill sets already, but are willing to, in fact, what willing Thio want. Thio want to advance the leadership in greater numbers than the and the white respondents?

[00:15:51.94] spk_0:
Absolutely.

[00:15:53.03] spk_1:
E guess. There’s narrative that, you know there’s a lack of interest in in people of color advancing toe leadership. But you’ve dashed that.

[00:16:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that part of the reason that’s important is because if people hold this mental model that who wants to be a leader is, uh, not a person of color, then they’re going to ignore the leadership potential of people of color in their organization.

[00:16:26.64] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s very convenient. Well, you know, the folks of color don’t really aspire to leadership. So no need to consider them. So Okay, so you’ve you’ve dashed that it’s not so in two respects. It’s not a pipeline issue. The skills air there and the willingness Is there a ZX? Well,

[00:16:36.24] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:16:42.44] spk_1:
desire Thio advance and to lead. Okay, Um right. So remember your second main main conclusion, I guess, is there is white advantage. We were talking around it. Now we come right out and say there is white advantage in the nonprofit sector.

[00:18:59.24] spk_0:
There is. And, um, you know, I think that the the white advantage takes multiple forms, right? So I think that there have been over the last several months Mawr written about like, what happened? What’s called now? Philanthropic redlining, right, that organizations that are led by people of color, particularly black led organizations, are don’t get access to the same kind of resource is as the white led organizations focused on or serving in communities of color. And so there’s really interesting research both from organizations like Abssi A ZX, well as echoing green and bridge span that really dug into that funding disadvantage. And I think that our data also showed similar findings, particularly when it comes to, for instance, e. D s of color. And this was reported on Maurin a report from based on the 2016 data but E d s of color feeling like they don’t have, they don’t get grants of comparable size to peer organization or that they don’t have access Thio relationships with funders. And so those kinds of advantages in terms of like, who funders trust who funders will give bigger grants thio all of those benefits than accrue to white led organizations that then create this financial gap between organizations, nonprofit organizations based on who’s in positions of power in that institution. And so other ways that the white advantage showed up were in terms of the sort of composition of organizations and the greater comfort that white people, uh, seem tohave in. Those organizations, for instance, on questions like Do people feel like they have a voice in their organization for people working in white, dominant organizations were both the board and senior staff are more than 75% white. That’s where we saw the biggest gaps between people of color and whites in terms of their their agreement with that statement, right? And that gap decreases as you have mawr diverse organizations. And it’s also interesting to note that the average the mean increases. So both people of color and white respondents are more likely to say they have a. They have a voice in their organizations when they work for POC lead groups. So if you know, funders want to invest in organizations that are cultivating that kind of leader full ecosystem inside of their organization that, you know, make it possible for staff to feel like they have a voice and can help to set the direction for the organization, then you know foundations would be wise to really take a hard look at their own investment and the composition of organizations that they’ve been funding on. DSI. You know, like, are these organizations largely white run or are they POC lead on. And if there are largely white one, they should start investing in more organizations that are POC ledge.

[00:20:06.94] spk_1:
You identify five opportunities which we’ll get to, and one of those is put your money where your mouth is. You just say, put your, uh, you

[00:20:08.83] spk_0:
know, money

[00:20:54.04] spk_1:
where mouth is for sure. Yeah, I mean that’s a critical lever of power is funding for any anyone, whether it’s whether it’s corporate or non profit access to capital access to markets. Um, you know, what I thought was really interesting is, um, when you were identifying whether an organization was white lead or POC lead you, you chose as a threshold for white lead, whether more than 75% whether the Board of Leadership is more than 75% white. But then for for people of color lead, the threshold was just 50%. Is that because there just aren’t enough that are that are at the 75% level? So you had to reduce the yet to reduce the threshold to define it as person of color lead? Was that the reason?

[00:21:02.45] spk_0:
Yes. I mean, I think that it reflects the sort of composition of the sector, right. So 45% of respondents reported working for organizations where more than 75% of the board and senior staff were white on then it only 14% of respondents reporting working for organizations where it was over 50% of board and senior staff where people of color, you know, like it’s

[00:21:30.25] spk_1:
hard to have

[00:21:30.98] spk_0:
a comparison between Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:34.02] spk_1:
75% shoulder, 75% for PFC. Lead was gonna be too small a sample You

[00:21:40.57] spk_0:
a

[00:21:41.99] spk_1:
handful of Okay, uh, e suspected. Okay. Um, yeah. The experience was a little more about the experience. How people experience how people of color experience work in a in a white led organization.

[00:21:58.84] spk_0:
Well, I have to say, this was surprised, Not surprising. But it was interesting that the data was so clear, um, that the these racial gaps were so much larger for respondents working for white run organizations compared toa the POC led groups. And, um, you know, I think that it reflects what we’ve been hearing from the focus groups that we’ve been doing across the country in terms of the frustration, particularly on the part of people of color working in organizations that, um, you know, I think often feel somewhat alienating. And where people feel like they, um their leadership potential is not recognized or supported on dso. It was just a really, uh it was nice to have the data show, uh, and really reflect what we’ve been hearing anecdotally through focus groups and interviews around the country,

[00:22:59.54] spk_1:
You mentioned three organizations that have contributed to this work. One of them was bridge span. And then what were the other to save them. Save them a little slower theater, too.

[00:23:03.21] spk_0:
Sure. So a few months ago, bridge span and echoing green partnered on a report that looked at the going echoing green,

[00:23:14.57] spk_1:
echoing green

[00:24:50.44] spk_0:
green. Yeah, they partnered toe look at the funding that had accrued to organization organizational leaders who had gone through echoing Green’s programs. And so they were able to then really track and demonstrate that black leaders compared toa white leaders who had gone through the same kind of leadership development programs were getting very different levels of financial support on So that report came out at, you know, the earlier in the spring and last winter, an organization called Absi, which is the Organization for African Americans in philanthropy. On DSO, the acronym is a B E, and they put out a report looking at what they call the philanthropic redlining, this phenomenon of financial support from foundations accruing to white led organizations rather than to POC lead or black led organizations. So they use this terminology of redlining because it’s evocative of historical policy that led to very dramatic differences in terms of what sort of development and investment was possible, uh, in cities and neighborhoods based on this policy of redlining. And their point is that the imbalances, the inequities and where philanthropic dollars flow leads toa completely different prospects for organizations. And because some organizations grow because they get the funding and other organizations sort of. Whether on the bun

[00:25:06.34] spk_1:
isn’t the large majority of the smaller organizations I think you’re special was under a million dollars aren’t Isn’t the majority of those POC lead?

[00:25:08.44] spk_0:
It was, Yeah, it was striking to see that a much larger share of POC led organizations had budgets under a million

[00:25:30.34] spk_1:
dollars compared to, for instance, what led organizations? And, ah, large, large majority of those are a million dollars or under in funding or annual budget.

[00:25:31.18] spk_0:
Yes, okay, yeah, in terms of the annual budget

[00:26:27.24] spk_1:
annual budget. Okay, time for our last break. Dot drives drives engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives walks you through donor engagement. It’s a tool that’s simple, affordable and focuses you on building donor relationships and trust. There’s a free demo, and for listeners a free first month. Go to the listener landing page at tony dot Emma slash dot We’ve got but loads more time for POC, underrepresented in non profit leadership. And then the third main point is that d I. Efforts are widespread, you say, and their effectiveness is uncertain, I would say, but but their effectiveness is uncertain. You’re a little more optimistic. Um, so, yeah, we were scratching the surface of this before, but you know, say same or about what’s being done, but what the limitations of it are.

[00:26:35.74] spk_0:
Well, first off, I think it’s important to acknowledge that three quarters of the sample reported that their organizations were doing something related to diversity equity inclusion. And so the ubiquity of D I efforts is, you know, I think good. And I think it’s a relatively new phenomenon, right? Like it’s become the topic at a lot of conferences over the past five years. And so all of which is to say that like organizations are getting started right now, Um, and maybe it’s long overdue, but this is a moment when organizations are getting started. I think that the challenge, the frustration, particularly on the part of people of color. And the younger staff of, you know, diverse diversity of younger staff is that I think for far too often it feels like organizational checklist. It feels like a sort of double. Organizations are saying the right things, but not actually changing anything about their recruitment practices or internal hiring and promotion strategy. So, yeah, I think that that is the the frustrating in that, like the ubiquity does not equal impact.

[00:28:43.94] spk_1:
I just want to remind listeners the report is called Race to Lead Revisited and you can get it at building movement dot or ge. All right, Sean, how do you feel about talking? Oh, there’s there’s a quote. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You You pepper the report with quotes in the margin on Dhe there. Ah, lot of them struck me that. I’m just going to read one that was probably half a dozen or so that, you know, sort of stopped me a little bit. But, uh, Pakistani woman, I don’t believe I’m taking us seriously in the workplace because I am a young woman of color. I often question things which doesn’t always go over well in majority white organizations. I’ve been used as a token brown person that za harsh reality Thio Thio read and for her to admit in a survey that, you know, I’m a token. Um So I thought the quotes were very evocative.

[00:28:55.84] spk_0:
Well, yeah, thanks. I mean, we we really think it’s important to balance the quantitative data with, you know, hundreds upon hundreds of right and responses from survey respondents and then also the focus groups that we do. We also gain a ton of insights from those conversations as well.

[00:29:16.34] spk_1:
You feel OK, go into the five opportunities or is there Is there mawr anything more you wanna bring out about the the report itself? Well, this is part of the report, but about the conclusions, conclusions and findings.

[00:29:40.34] spk_0:
Well, I guess I would just add in terms of the sort of d I and, uh, there’s the both the skepticism, but also the impact, right? I think that, um, there’s, you know, I think there’s a lot of skepticism about training, often times. But our data did show that for reserving respondents that reported that their organization trained on a variety of topics. They had more positive views on the impact of training on their organization. I think that just speaks to the importance and need for organizations have, like, multifaceted well around D. I initiatives so that training is not again, like just the check box on or sort of like. Okay, we did the training on white privilege, and so we’re sort of done that the training is a way of both sparking but also sustaining critical conversations in organizations. And that’s why it’s useful for organizations to do training repeatedly and on a variety of topics.

[00:30:59.64] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it was. It was forearm. Or if organizations had had training on four or more topics than both white, the white respondents and the people, people of color respondents, um, felt it was it was more advantageous. So they got there was more valuable training than if it was three or fewer. Could you just take off a couple of different topics that that folks should be looking to training? I mean, not not exhaustive, but you know, what are some of the some of the topics that people should be thinking about training wise?

[00:31:07.27] spk_0:
Sure, yeah. So eso in terms of the topics that we tested for in the survey people indicated that whether the organization had done training on white privileged, specifically whether they had done training on implicit bias because that is a concept that I think has gained mawr currency in the sector. Structural racism, for instance. Um, like do people think of racism as just about interpersonal dynamics or as or as the result of structural, um, and systemic forces that are being replicated by policy? A. ZX well, as implicitly, um, also racial trauma and healing. I think it’s a training topic that is becoming more popular and developed, so there’s a variety of topics, and I think the important thing is just for organizations to be open to having and doing training on a wide variety of topics.

[00:32:07.74] spk_1:
And again, the more topics, the more valuable people will feel. Three outcomes are, um So let’s go to the opportunities. Then why don’t you once you start us off?

[00:32:19.04] spk_0:
Sure.

[00:32:20.17] spk_1:
I’m sure. Wait. I put you on the spot. Do you know that you may not have him off the top of your head? I have notes I haven’t written down, so I don’t need thio Put you on the spot memorized? I don’t know do you?

[00:32:32.07] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve got it.

[00:32:33.81] spk_1:
Okay. Okay.

[00:32:47.44] spk_0:
First in the first one was focused on structures as well as the experiences of staff. Right on DSO. You know, I think it’s pretty straightforward, but I think the the reason that we felt felt like it was really important toe lift up lived experience of staff working in organizations is because of what we saw in terms of those experience questions, right? Like, do people feel they have a voice in their organizations or not? Right. We also thought it was important to point out that policies have to actually be in force, right? Like organizations can’t just say this is our policy. But if people don’t see evidence that actual behavior and practices air changing as a result of the policy, um, then you know, I think there are real questions about whether that has real impact.

[00:33:22.08] spk_1:
There is, as

[00:33:23.32] spk_0:
we said earlier,

[00:33:35.84] spk_1:
you’re not walking the talk. Then if you have ah, policy on anti discrimination and someone says something derogatory and it doesn’t get dealt with according to the policy. Yeah, that’s a joke. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:33:39.94] spk_0:
Um, we also thought it was important toe, you know, really, focus on the funding dynamics, so particularly for grantmaking organizations. But put your money where, like your mouth is essentially right. Like there are increasing number of foundations, that air saying that the I is important. Ah, nde sort of signaling to their grantees. But those organizations need to take d. I seriously need to diversify their boards and staff things like that. But if the foundations have not taken similar steps, if the foundations have not to diversify their own or internal institution, or the foundations have not sort of critically examined their portfolio of grants like are there racial disparities in terms of what the amounts of funding, which organizations get access to funding that sort of thing? All of that is about foundations being very serious on reflect about being reflective in terms of their own commitments to D. I.

[00:35:24.04] spk_1:
And you have reflecting reflecting your community, which we touched on a little bit, that that was really striking, how you know it’s intuitive. I mean, I realized it, but to see the numbers of, um, Whitelighter organizations that are serving POC communities, eyes like two thirds or something, I think, um, it’s startling that leadership does not reflect the communities that they’re serving, and that includes the board. I mean, you you wanna have voices from the from the folks you’re serving contributing to your contributing to your you’re you’re major decisions a ZX the board should be doing

[00:35:28.54] spk_0:
Yeah, and again, like, as I said earlier, like, if organizations see the function of the board as about accountability as about setting the direction for the organization, then I think those organizations will see the need and value of having a board that is reflective of the community that’s being served. But if organizations have the sort of rationale for maintaining the board is to have access to people with wealth and connections, and there’s obvious reasons that organizations go that route. Then they’re going to stack. They’re bored with wealthy people in their communities on again because of racism. Those wealthy people are not likely to be people of color from the constituency that’s being served

[00:36:15.53] spk_1:
and your last one responsibility and results.

[00:36:26.79] spk_0:
Yeah, I think our sense was that organizations air pushed to track a lot of things nowadays and so, like what gets measured is often what then matters. And so our sense was that organizations should be very clear about what their commitments are going to be to race equity. And, um, you know, really track those commitments and then track the results of that come out of, like, what kind of organizational change strategies they pursue. And so, you know, if organizations they’re doing like an annual review or annual reports, are they reporting on their goals and objectives around race equity? That is one way to sort of ensure that organizations are staying on track on dhe, that its multiyear commitment

[00:37:13.58] spk_1:
it’s gonna take

[00:37:14.84] spk_0:
multiple years of change.

[00:37:38.03] spk_1:
Uh, you know, just pay attention. You can move the needle on things. If you start paying attention to them, you’re saying, if you measure it, you’ll you’ll you’ll be. You’ll be accountable to it. So high attention to it. If your If your statements say that you value racial equity, then measure it, hold yourself accountable and commit to those years of change.

[00:37:41.23] spk_0:
Yeah, and I think it’s even better if organizations do that. Make that accountability public, eso that they’re the sort of reporting is to their staff. It’s to their board. It’s to their community so that, like the statements of the organizations stand with. For instance, black lives matter, then backed up with organizations being able to say. And here’s how we lived into that commitment. Here are the things that we did over the past year that made that riel,

[00:38:10.82] spk_1:
Sean, anything, anything at all that we didn’t cover that you want to talk about.

[00:38:16.52] spk_0:
Um, no, I think we covered a lot.

[00:38:34.22] spk_1:
Okay, well, we did. You know, it’s not profit radio. We cover a lot of ground, but, you know, we can only scratch the surface. I mean, we cover a lot, but what you want to read the details, So just get the damn thing. Uh, the report again is, um race toe lead racing. No race race, the lead race, the lead be visiting

[00:38:38.27] spk_0:
the lead revisited.

[00:38:49.92] spk_1:
Used to lead you visited. You’ll find it at building movement or GE. That’s where you’ll find building movement project. And Sean Thomas Bright felled. Who is co director, right, Sean, Thank you very much. Thank you.

[00:38:52.07] spk_0:
Thanks so much for having me

[00:39:32.72] spk_1:
absolutely appreciate your time. Thank you. Reminder were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives raise more money changed more lives. Tony dot Emma slash dot for a free demo and a free month, Our creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy. This music is by Scott Stein and with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for May 8, 2020: Data Privacy Practices

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My Guest:

Jon Dartley: Data Privacy Practices

Let’s have a romp through the fields of data privacy and cybersecurity, musing as we frolic on just how important the right practices and policies are to your nonprofit. My guest is Jon Dartley, Of Counsel at Perlman+Perlman law firm.

 

 

 

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[00:00:12.00] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:19.07] spk_2:
big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. This is our second non studio show produced using a dizzy audacity and zoom Oh, I’m glad you’re with me ID break out in Wall Dyer’s ring If I had to say the words you missed today’s show data privacy practices Let’s have a romp through the fields of data privacy and cybersecurity, musing as we frolic on just how important the right practices and policies are to your non profit. My guest is John Darkly of counsel at prominent Pullman law firm tony. Take two. Take another breath were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? And by turning to communications, PR and content for non profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a pleasure to welcome John Darkly to the show he founded and operated involve the Web application, development and design firm that pioneered online peer to peer fundraising list building and advocacy campaigns for non profits involved was acquired by Can. Terra. John probably made a lot of money there when Cantero was acquired by Blackboard John probably make money again, but he was also named senior deputy general counsel and information governance chair. Besides all that, he has more than 15 years experience representing nonprofit organizations. He’s of counsel at Perlman and Perlman law firm in New York City. The firm’s at Perlman and perlman dot com. And at tax exempt lawyer John Darley. Welcome the non profit radio.

[00:02:21.64] spk_5:
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:23.19] spk_2:
Good to have you. That was, uh, that sounds like it was quite a run with involved in terra and black bod.

[00:02:29.54] spk_5:
It was definitely an interesting path. I like this day. It gave me a lot of kind of real world experience. Great to work on. Both sides. Both work on the software side now, back on representing clients. Yeah. Yes, it was interesting.

[00:02:43.11] spk_2:
How many years was that from? Like from the time from founding involved to being appointed senior deputy general counsel at Blackboard,

[00:02:52.74] spk_5:
right? About seven or eight years. And when I start with the ball off again, we working with some very large, not pop. It’s doing Web applications. This was like the first kind of friends asking, friends type approach on. Then we just kind of built out organically, like working with a non topic clients and eventually bought and bought again, as everyone knows a lot. Elation.

[00:03:26.39] spk_2:
Yeah, good, Wonderful. It’s a good trip. So it isn’t practicing law now. Boring. Without all that, you don’t have a let’s start up excitement and challenge and all those obstacles and frustrations.

[00:03:27.92] spk_5:
The grass is always greener. So, you know, when I was at that sign, it seemed like just being a lawyer would be very comforting. Now you’re like sometimes you miss the excitement. But I hope my clients and we have some smaller clients that are building, you know, interesting brands that you’re saying. All of this s o. I feel like I’m so not sure. I’m just advising my clients

[00:03:46.69] spk_2:
without without All the agita is the once removed once room from, uh, from rounds of rams of financing, et cetera,

[00:03:56.25] spk_5:
where you are like wearing having to pay painful, easy,

[00:04:32.40] spk_2:
right, Get back and I make right. Can I make the Yeah? Can I make salaries this week. Right? Right. So, um all right. Data data, privacy, cyber security. I think people probably understand, in our current environment, I’m not having to do with Corona virus, but just living in 2020. I think a lot of people are conscious of at least cybersecurity issues. Maybe not so much data data, privacy. But But let’s make sure, you know, give us some, uh, motivation for why data, privacy and cybersecurity should be paint paid attention to

[00:05:16.39] spk_5:
Yeah, I’m often accused of scaring people, and I think that’s a good thing, you know, frankly, I work with four profit stonework with non puppets now primarily. And from, you know, I was a non profit yourself 5 to 6 years behind the for profit world and taking privacy of cyber security. Seriously. Just, you know, in the for profit world is now a C suite. You know, job is open, it’s cheap. Obviously, Officer, there’s teams of people working on things, not hop it, and they are starting to learn the importance of taking the practices and putting these policies in place. But a lot of times is an infrastructure is do. The manpower is too but just to kind of take a context every year, the amount of breaches grow. Last year, $2 in 19 the amount of damages increase by about 17%. And just in the context of what that costs, the average reach across an organization almost $4 million now, given there are some very large reaches, so that kind of skews the results. But in terms of a per record, So think about donors. How many donors you have, Basically an average of $150 for every record loss is what you’re gonna pay in regulatory fees and other finds. Another kind of charges. So that’s, you know, a real real thing.

[00:05:44.28] spk_2:
Now, what about the comparison between, you know, corporate and non profit breaches mean? Well, I’m thinking off the top of my head of, ah, Marriott. Uh, you know, I don’t 100 million records or whatever. West maybe was only 10 million. I don’t remember, but many millions of records um, there have been other big corporate breaches, but have there been breaches? Maybe they’re just not as, uh as publicized on the non profit side.

[00:06:21.42] spk_5:
You’re actually exactly right. Uh, small and mid sized nonprofits are actually being increasingly target if they don’t have to sophisticated protocols in place to kind of to protect against some of these of these hacks. We don’t hear about the malls and not the big build. Another Facebooks of the world on an ID only they’ve been. Actually, some studies done is not evident. It totally they’ve been some studies done that, not pump it actually hurt more than four profits for data breach. I’ll give you an example. You know, Facebook gets breached. How many people actually got off Facebook and stop using it, right? Not pop it in a way, are more fungible. Some donors with donate more to more than one organization, studies have shown. If there’s a data breach at a non profit, donors are less likely to come back next year. Donate. I’ll just choose another organization. So in some ways, the bar and the risks are even higher for nonprofits,

[00:07:03.52] spk_2:
right? All right, right. I’m I’m more committed. I’m pretty committed to my Marriott Marriott Bon voy points. No, I don’t. I’m gonna keep using the brand because I’ve got a couple 100,000 points with them.

[00:07:29.30] spk_5:
Exactly. The reputational harm I have to say, tony, ITT’s organizations don’t think about that. But these days, I think we all were all more sensitive to write. Our data’s being treated. Yeah, they’re a lot more regulations out there which out there they will talk about. But the reputational harm can last for years, especially when organization is seen as either not doing the right things, not taking kind of, you know, appropriate precautions that could really be devastating.

[00:07:40.49] spk_2:
All right, since you mentioned regulations, um, uh, you know, we heard a lot about GDP. Are when? When that was knew. What was that, like, two years ago or so that

[00:07:50.44] spk_5:
that May of 2018 will into effect.

[00:07:53.86] spk_2:
Okay, pretty good. Usually I’m bad about the estimating time. All right, so it was two years ago this month. All right, um, so GDP are But you can acquaint us with that. What? I mean for a U. S. Charity? What? What do we need to be conscious of their

[00:08:44.74] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s funny when you came. In fact, it seemed like a few months, like just everyone was talking about it. Remember, a Woody Allen movie would talked about. He said soon will be, the Renaissance will be painting. Thing is like, I think soon it was like That’s all we’re talking about a CPR. It’s like literally a few months s. The only emails I got from clients was like, What is this thing with GDP on what I need to do now? It’s two years later, we’re still talking about it, But there are other regulations ever come into a factory plucked out as well. A general data protection regulation does affect not Klopp, which came into effect in 2018 and has very specific department. So does it affect your not profit? Some of listening? If you have a website, it probably does right. Judy PR affects anybody collecting any information from someone residing in the European Union between the UK, including Switzerland. So B e a, uh, and you know, if your only collecting a few names from from those countries I wouldn’t be is concerned. But if you collect a little bit more than that, then it probably makes sense to comply with GDP. Are

[00:09:39.37] spk_1:
it’s time for a break? Wegner-C.P.As. They have a bunch of covert 19. Resource is on their site. Tax questions related to Cove in 19. We received RP PP funding. Now what? Developing your 13 week cash flow forecast. Internal controls. Covitz style. What about cash? How are you controlling cash in a virtual environment? This is all at wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click resource is

[00:09:45.17] spk_2:
Okay. So, John, it’s only it’s only if you’re collecting data. Not not if you citizens or Swiss citizens are visiting your website merely visiting your website.

[00:09:55.14] spk_5:
But really, it is because what he has done has lowered the bar. What personal information is right? We all care. We were going to use the term sometimes P I I personally identifiable information. And so Jeannie pr is concerned about is if you collect P II. According to Judi pr and I key address. Right. We’ll have computers. We access a website. We have an I P. Address a stash. Consider P I So, technically, anybody accessing your website if you collect their i p address with, most people do automatically. You’re you’re technically subject that GDP are

[00:10:27.29] spk_2:
okay. Wait. All right, So you’re saying most web? Most websites automatically preserve the i p address of a visitor.

[00:10:36.34] spk_5:
Most do through, like, Google analytics or, you know, at least. Yeah, All these the analysts people use automatically get life he addressed with someone visits your website.

[00:10:43.64] spk_2:
Okay. And that then is an entering argument for GDP are to apply to your your website your your non profit

[00:11:34.01] spk_5:
Exactly. Just counsel our clients that you should really only be concerned if you’re collecting and be getting. Don’t you collecting information more than I p addresses to get it? It’s kind of Ah, it’s a risk reward. Be only getting a few I p addresses. You’re not doing anything with it. The odds are of GDP are becoming an issue on the regulators Looking at your not profit. Probably small, but okay, a lot not talk. But in this country that either have offices early, you or have people access routinely. So I’ll give you an example. We worked with a large, well known museum and when people come from your they often want to visit this museum in Manhattan. So they have ticketing and they’re having thousands of people not really least used to when people are travelling but museum tickets. Judy pr squarely applies. They have to comply.

[00:11:48.48] spk_2:
Okay, So beyond the beyond the this sort of perfunctory the i p address else. So if we don’t have ah location that people are buying tickets to come to, what other kind of data would would trigger the GDR for us?

[00:12:30.11] spk_5:
Any name and email address, you know, collecting that anybody resigned. And when I say the word residing, you don’t have to live there. So, technically, tony, if I went Teoh London and then made a donut, patients were not topping the US JD. Power applies to me with that trip is action. I’m now residing in the EU state token of somebody from the U is in the U. S. Exit donation to a non profit. Even though there are you sitting this in a transaction takes place in the U. S. GDP. Ours doesn’t apply. It’s a little bit complicated, but like I said it that today those

[00:12:30.46] spk_2:
those those are the exception. So let’s just deal with

[00:12:33.43] spk_5:
that at

[00:12:33.87] spk_2:
the mainstream. You got a new resident transacting from from the European Union. Um but let’s just assume all that you residents are in the the European Union for this conversation, right? None of them, they’re here. So

[00:14:01.36] spk_5:
So yeah, so replies just kind of get the kid like some of things you want to do. I say, like the low hanging fruit fidgety you are applies. The first thing is website privacy policy. I’m gonna talk about that a little bit more later in terms of a general privacy policy, the importance of it. But Virginia PRD is separate. Basically, GDP are notice that needs just list specific information. Uh, two people from the EU learning them of their rights. And some of the remedies they have, I’ve tell organizations of GDP are applies. The first thing you do is put a put a speeding car notice on your website. That’s something a regulator is the first thing they don’t look at. If you have, that is already one box check. That’s great. Thea. Other hurdle for a lot of non profit we work with is how to get, uh, what when someone wants upped and there’s no more opt out. Everything has to be in Upton and has to be a very specific and home up then, and this is probably the biggest challenge for a lot of non profits. It’s a much higher bar for consent. I’ll give you an example. No longer than you have to have a check. The box and the box says we are signing up to get email campaigns, periodic newsletters and other promotions, even if they check that box. Wegner Judy PR Let’s consider too broad, right? Every request for permission need to be very specific. You need to be clear and affirmative and very moment, one of the biggest challenges for Not

[00:14:10.45] spk_2:
question. So give me an example of of a consent that is properly worded.

[00:14:21.74] spk_5:
I hereby consent to the processing of my personal data for the price Rose Christ or period, not email newsletter, not general marketing purpose for a specific purpose. A price store. You could also say I’m I’m a I hereby consent to the processing of my data for your monthly newsletter. Now let’s say three months later, you have a new newsletter or different what you can no longer send them both newsletters. You don’t have to stand for that. You now have to go back to get the scent. You get one try. They don’t respond. You can’t go back to them again.

[00:14:47.79] spk_2:
Cannot. You can’t go back to them again.

[00:14:49.92] spk_5:
No. Cannot. And there’s no grandfather clause either. So you know a lot of people. At least couple years ago, I had all these names. They were wondering, what do we do? And you got one shot Thio going going to these folks and say, Hey, GDP, our allies way like to use your names. This way, please respond. Have you to get a response That said you can no longer market to these folks.

[00:15:30.84] spk_2:
Okay. All right. So you get one chance per each channel. Sort of. You don’t have to do it for each individual newsletter. I mean, individual mailing of the same newsletter. But But as you said, if you if you start a second newsletter on a different topic related to a different program, you’d have to get permission for that

[00:16:00.79] spk_5:
exactly right. And then the people that you do have kind of on your roster that you’re allowed Teoh work with the U there certain rights they have and these rights have to be passed on to the benders that not puppets work. With these age, everything’s in the cloud off. The odds are they’re using other folks that kind of help processes data. But anybody from the EU has the right of access. They have the right to know what you have about them. They have a right to a racer. They’re gonna ask you to delete their data at any time. You must comply with a certain period of time. They have the right to restrict processing. Yeah, you can use my data eat to give me a newsletter. But I don’t want to be in a cooperative where you’re sharing my name. Uh, they have the right the right to data portability. Give me everything you have and provide. Give it to this new provider on. They have the right to object to anything you’re doing with their data. And when we talk about the Jodi or notice the privacy policy, the privacy policy needs to kind of lift all these rights for EU people. You usually

[00:16:28.40] spk_2:
all right. And that policy needs to be on your website.

[00:16:31.95] spk_5:
Yeah, just like a regular privacy policy. But it needs to be a separate notice. It needs to be on the website prominently displayed.

[00:16:48.14] spk_2:
Okay. When you get consent for the processing of data around a particular purpose, do you need to remind people about their rights? Give them all these reactions, toe portability and the ratio, et cetera, or just one time on the website.

[00:16:55.11] spk_5:
No, No need to be part of your privacy notice. You don’t need to remind them proactively, but it needs to be listed in your GDP are profit privacy notice

[00:17:02.48] spk_2:
Privacy notice on your website.

[00:17:04.34] spk_4:
Yeah, right. Okay.

[00:17:05.86] spk_5:
And the fines are extremely high again for small missiles. Nonprofits to a very low interaction. I’m not concerned. Larger non puppets should be a little bit more aware and look concern. And, you know, one of the things you also need to be aware of. 1/3 party vendors GDP are now makes nonprofits directly responsible and liable for the axe or or emissions of the vendors that holding the state on your behalf. So you now need to give all these vendors specific provisions. Your mandated by GDP are specific. GDP are provisions that buying these benders to basically support your efforts to comply with GDP are so this is another hurdle.

[00:17:52.44] spk_2:
Okay. Um, all right, I would presume the largest vendors are acquainted with this by now, but you

[00:17:53.35] spk_5:
must have their own. Yeah,

[00:17:55.63] spk_2:
but you need to be proactive about ensuring that your vendors all do, whether small or large,

[00:18:00.84] spk_5:
Yeah, a lot profit use. It’s more of the small amount outside vendors, and they may have one in place, and the one they have a place might not be. You know, listen, that everyone takes a different approach. The vendor who supplies they’re all will be much more friendly towards them, so they should still be reviewed and negotiated.

[00:18:16.79] spk_2:
All right, so you’re asking, Are they GDP are compliant when you’re querying your vendors?

[00:18:23.40] spk_5:
Exactly. That May should also bishop. There needs to be the denim toe. Any contract that you have in place just not to get too technical, but the non profit who collects it. Who’s collecting? The data is called a data controller, right. They control the data, their vendors who helped process the data. So maybe a C. R M system, a black box, for example. They would be considered a data processor. Ben should be processing the data on behalf of the non profit who owns the data. So I’ll pop. It is data controller has kind of a much higher bar of requirements to me.

[00:19:03.14] spk_2:
All right. As long as you defined your terms, you keep yourself out of jargon. Jail on. All right. Um uh, Okay, well, there’s a New York law, but, you know, New York Shield, But our listeners are nationwide. So you want to just be much briefer about New York Shield just for our New York listeners?

[00:19:49.27] spk_5:
Yeah. Although New York still, tony, just like today PR, it doesn’t make a difference where you are. You collecting information from New York residents? It applies to you And I would argue is actually, it’s more important because the Jeep car that’s still question how the you will force it against a non profit who does not have offices in the U By how that happens. Nobody has seen yet. But but let’s put that aside, the New York Shelled Act gives the attorney general a public right of action. And certainly in New York, the New York Attorney General has a much further reach to go after not profit, whether they’re in New York or anywhere in the US, because we’re talking about the same country. So I would be as a non profit, more concern about New York Shield at this moment. First import most and then worry about you need your necks.

[00:20:01.72] spk_2:
Oh, all right, do other states. California is a pretty activist state. Do they have something similar that applies to all their residents?

[00:20:33.26] spk_5:
California has one called CCP A, but right now it does not apply to non profits. It only would implicate non profit ever have a four profit wing or Division A? Are there working with a four profit where, for example, be getting data from a company that’s getting from messages in CCP? A. The non papa should be concern at that vendor. Who’s providing you That data has complied with CCP A. But other than that, it doesn’t really apply to non profits.

[00:20:35.61] spk_2:
Okay, any other states.

[00:21:29.34] spk_5:
Massachusetts has had something for a long time, not too dissimilar from New York. But you need me. I think people are kind of and there are other unless there are other ones in the works. Colorado has won about us looking to pass something at some point. That’s in Kobe. 19 is for a lot of things on the back burner, but at some point we could have federal legislation, and you know what I counsel with non clap? It’s even which university BR came out and they said it doesn’t apply to me. I said, Even if it doesn’t, it probably makes sense of trying to comply his first ball. Everything’s moving towards greater accountability. Donors. Employees are getting more sensitive about Heather Data’s being used and starting to follow some of these protocols. Just make makes the non hop. It’s better stewards of the information they collect another day. We want to do like by these donors wanted to do right by our employees. The data were collected. So following somebody particles and they don’t apply is a smart practice because nothing wants unauthorized access to their systems.

[00:21:37.88] spk_2:
Okay, Okay. Um, the Massachusetts law is that limited to credit card information?

[00:22:05.54] spk_5:
No, let me call it. It’s a lot of different kinds of personal information, but has not been. I have not seen it really in forced on. A lot of organizations already have policies in place that kind of meet somebody obligations. And certainly if you’re if you start to meet the New York Field Act, which I think will be will be unless they enforce more vigorously, you’re probably OK on the on the Massachusetts

[00:22:10.22] spk_2:
front and the messages from Okay, so Yeah, that’s that’s true. In a lot of cases, like if you can comply with the New York law, you’re covered in a lot of other states because New York is so stringent. Um,

[00:22:22.40] spk_5:
I always say that you can make it here. You can make it anywhere. That was

[00:22:28.69] spk_2:
okay. Uh, yeah, but hey was intact. Think Sinatra was intending much more favorable. And the privacy compliance. All right, so what about New York Shield? You want toe? Give us an overview of that. What? What we should be concerned about this thing, This is if we’re collecting data from New York residents, that right?

[00:24:00.98] spk_5:
Exactly. Yeah, but I would argue I would take my most nonprofits to do any kind of real online access and gather data or getting donations. You probably have a, you know, at least amount from New York. But you know, many what may have a lot So certainly ones working on the East Coast would probably have a lot of New York residents accessing about side and giving information. So that’s about one of things. It expands. What constitutes a data breach, Uh, basically lowers that bar as well. So in terms of when you have to report a data breach, let’s put that piece of side. But this happened the most important thing for nonprofits to keep in mind. Now where? Why was them that says it may an individual one. Employees are pleased to coordinate data security program. This is key because most organizations don’t have one. This is the old saying. If you don’t know where you’re gullible, roads will take you there, and I’ve always counselled we have my non profit clients. If you don’t have somebody in charge of privacy, odds are nothing’s really happening on that front. So that’s good. This is a great example of even if you’re not collecting information of New York residents, you shouldn’t have a point person. Um, and what that point was it needs to do is he needs to look at, based upon your size and attack the information to collecting uh, that they have played a physical security tech technical security attacks, a compliance programs doing training were supposed to looking at Bender agreements and assessing risk. And now New York requires you to have certain provisions. Reasonable provision in every vendor agreement that makes me binds those vendors for doing the right things, that appropriate things in terms. Protecting the data you collect euros exposes, sensitively destroyed data when you no longer needed. And again, I know for many clients this ridiculous some of my clients and many non prop assistants in daunting. It’s not as hard to comply as they might think. And for some of our clients, I’m acting as that point person. It doesn’t have to be. And employees. It just needs to be somebody. So I’ve come in organizations. I’ve looked at the left look of the vendor agreements. Let’s see how things are being protected. Let’s look, if you’re doing training, just let’s look at the your overall approach to privacy and even and give a kind of annual advice that would get them a long way to comply. Europe show.

[00:25:04.84] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Um, all right. And you know, good point also is you know, you said a few times Ah, it’s worthwhile to comply with these to the extent you can, even if you feel it doesn’t apply to you that the law may not apply, but it’s gets good practices.

[00:25:17.34] spk_5:
Yeah. I mean, listen, reaches typically happen from third party vendors That’s usually the case, because these days most people are using cloud providers or using third party vendors to kind of hold this data. If a breach occurs, a vendor’s Onley obligation is to tell you their client that the breach occurred. Your obligation under law. Is it now? No. Divide all the donors who stayed it might have been compromised. They could be credit monitoring costs. There could be legal costs that could be certain regulatory fines. So it’s it’s so example. New York, she’ll requires you to look at these vendor agreements and have certain terms in there. That’s just a smart thing to do. Third party vendor agreements are woefully one sided in favour of the vendors. They’re the ones drafting it on. And it just makes sense to review negotiate these agreements. We can certainly talk about you like five or six, uh, terms that should be in every vendor agreement you

[00:26:10.88] spk_4:
have. All right,

[00:26:11.21] spk_2:
You’re not gonna get to two. Ah, legalese on this. Are you mean I haven’t practiced? I haven’t practiced law since 1994 so

[00:26:19.35] spk_5:
I’m not

[00:26:20.09] spk_2:
gonna get technical for the non lawyer. The 99% of listeners who are not lawyers, right? Okay.

[00:27:12.94] spk_5:
You know, I can keep it. Very simple, just like. And I actually have a great checklist. I’m happy, you know, share with you, tony. People could reach out to me of things to keep in mind. But again, when you instill Ryan, you know, hopefully 98% of time, everything felt swimming. Well, it’s never an issue, but what they still wrong kind of pull out the contract. And again, these contracts very one sided, I joke because I mentioned before I used to work for a very large software company where I drafted a portion of their their client agreement. And then lately, I’ve had the opportunity to negotiate that agreement on behalf of clients. And I wind up rewriting the entire agreement and adding an extra 10 pages and and general counsel at this one company said, John. But you wrote the agreement, your last changing. But I’m on the other side of the deal. It’s a whole, uh, so it’s not just what’s in the agreement. That count

[00:27:20.67] spk_2:
doesn’t. That doesn’t make you That does not make you a hypocrite. People need to understand your allegiance at that time was different than your allegiance at the second time when you were rewriting the agreement that you were drafted in the first time. You’re not a hypocrite.

[00:27:29.68] spk_5:
No, no, no. We’ve fallen advocacy,

[00:27:31.74] spk_2:
advocacy. That’s what we call it. I have forgot that.

[00:27:34.82] spk_5:
Yeah, I’m advocating, but recognizing. I

[00:27:59.74] spk_2:
mean, you’re advocating. Okay. All right. Wait. So let me before you start taking these things off, just tell listeners eso if they would you want to reach you? If somebody wants to get this this checklist that you have He’s John J O N at Kerman and perlman dot com. And Perlman is p e r l m a n not like the, like, the gem or the stone. Whatever that. Whatever pearls are, it’s not like that. Okay, John, at prominent perlman dot com. Okay, you got 45 whenever five things, six. And

[00:30:18.68] spk_5:
get that quickly. Yeah, The 1st 1 is just the privacy of charity. You know, typically will be one of two sentences. We’ll take commercially reasonable practices, know in this day and age and with New York Shield when GDP are there apartments that they need to get a lot more meat on the bone in regard to how company will protect your information. So one of the elements you want to do is simply insert a lot of language that raises the bar again of what we spend it’s supposed to be doing and that they don’t do that. And there’s a breach. Now you have some kind of remedy, uh, to go back from limitation of liability. Every contact has it typically limits what a non topic can get. If there is any kind of loss or damage, anything goes wrong. So open just six months of these. Can’t you have to always negotiate that? They kind of data breach a date of event that we should be untapped direct at Mage is a but not profit is fully covered. The’s terms old Ausubel. I open get it, But you have to ask for it. You don’t ask for your not getting getting it. Uh, uh, rich notification really important. So if there’s a breach, I always put a section in that gets you both quick notification and get you all the credit monitoring and all the other costs. Regulatory fines cover. I’ve never had a better save. Noted that in the end it may take a few back and forth, you know, negotiations. Always a dance, but having a breach notification and uncovered cause it is essential to be two more transition service is when you want to leave the vendor. It’s very hard to leave fried when you’re working with somebody like relationship kind of know who who see the is added. That might broker but becomes very difficult. But transition service’s basically bond and surrender toe work with you for six months and with your new better of choice to make that transition seamless, very important to have that obligation in there. And finally, I would say, is, You know, during the court, in stage with when you’re working with a vendor, you get a whole types of promises. You’ll get lots of marking material. Here’s how the functionality hero features you got everything spray when you signed the contract, you’ll notice that almost there’s no mention just nowhere to be found. One of the biggest things I find my clients about difficulty with is where someone over promises and under delivers. How do you prove that it was not part of the contract? So all those kind of shining marking materials. All those handouts, all those things that give you. You have to attach that to the agreement reference, is it? So when I get things, don’t work out his plan. Now you can show why there’s a beach and what you can get out of the agreement. Very important.

[00:33:11.64] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need an exemplary support that understands the way you work. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for tony. Take two. Take another breath, doubling down on my advice from last week that you take some peaceful time. Um, whatever it is for you if it’s napping, if it’s walks. Um, I’m not thinking of exercise. Exercise is important, but I’m not thinking of runs right now or home workouts. I’m thinking of peaceful, relaxed, calm time putting your mind at ease. I’m talking like I’m tryingto get bring you down right now. I’m not. I’m just trying to give some ideas. This is not a meditation. That’s not a meditation minute. I did try meditation class. I loved it, Actually did something online with a woman who’s giving free meditation classes. Um, and for an hour, I was I was under hypnosis. Almost at almost. I was, uh, focused on breathing where the breath comes in, where I feel it very valuable. Eso maybe for you. It’s meditation, and I have never done that before. So that was unusual experience for me. But I loved it, and I hope to do some more with her. Whatever it is for you, you know you know what it is. Take it, Do it. Take the time for yourself. There’s a lot being asked of us that is unusual. And even if it’s more routine now than it was 456 weeks ago, it’s still stressful. We’re out of our routines, so be good to yourself. Self care, right self care. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. Please do it. That is tony. Take two Now back to data privacy practices.

[00:33:22.92] spk_2:
All right, if you were on both sides of this arguing because you said it’s a dance right so suppose you were on both sides. Which side would you? Which side would you give in and which side would win?

[00:34:09.68] spk_5:
You know, it’s funny, because I do represent, we have. We have clients that are often vendors. I think I’m very fair in Middle Road. I think, you know, given eight hours of myself come help with very for both sides. But you, tony, that’s a great example of Give you an answer. The limitation. Liability. I always think there should be reasonable carve outs. It shouldn’t be a car about unlimited liability again. It’s what offended would owe you. Something goes wrong. It shouldn’t be that anything goes wrong no matter what, Even if it’s not their fault, they should pay you. So, for example, a visit data peach. But they did everything they were supposed to do when they were so got hacked. That should not be uncapped. But I wait at my rivers, my clients, I I agree with that. But if they do something wrong and there’s a reach, their full, that’s beyond cat. What side of the Delamontagne? I’m always gonna push for both those.

[00:34:25.18] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Eight hours with myself. I don’t know. I don’t know where I would go. I don’t want Oh, it’s not for public consumption, I’m sure. Um all right, so so is it. Is that what you say?

[00:34:36.09] spk_5:
I was thinking apocalypse. Now, that’s what happens when you have too much time on your

[00:34:44.04] spk_2:
OK. All right. Well, I was only r rated. All right, um, so it sounds like the difference. Maybe I’m getting too legalese now. It sounds like a different dream. Negligence, gross negligence and recklessness or something like that.

[00:35:21.99] spk_5:
Yeah, way. We’ll definitely end illegally. So I won’t go there. But those things are just sink. Since the name that contact get the most important thing for anybody listening is you need to have somebody review these agreements. Just don’t sign them. They’re always negotiable. Hopefully, you want somebody. And here is my biggest right. When I was at a black bond. Other companies that sometimes a lawyer who did not know understand technology, I wouldn’t really know what to ask, wouldn’t know had a mark up the agreement, make sure whoever you work with understands, right? They need to know what you’re getting. What the solution is to hopefully kind of protect your interests. So that would be like, he just have somebody who knows what they’re doing with you negotiating on your behalf.

[00:35:37.56] spk_2:
Okay. Cool. All right. Um, what else could we be looking at in this in this arena that can can protect us.

[00:37:17.21] spk_5:
Yeah. I’m gonna get you less than every non profit. If they don’t have, they should do immediately. That you have to think about updating. Are just checking in One is a plot privacy policy website. Privacy policies. Still a lot of non profit don’t have them if you have them. They’ve all from two drafted years ago. They have been updated. So the number of persons do is looking a privacy policy. Make sure it’s been updated. Last year, I would say it’s the transparency is the most important key. Do when you say it. Say what you do. Uh, in terms of the data you collect, you could almost almost do anything you want with it. If you’re transparent about it, you want to add you want oh, care with advertisers? Sure. You want to do you a cooperative? Fine. You want to even sell it? That’s often be possible. But you need to disclose that when somebody gives you the data, so having enough today, privacy policies really key if something goes wrong and people looking for privacy policy and you didn’t just close some of the ways you were sharing, and that’s where the data was lost to be a very big not only legal ramifications. Bobby CPR head. Andi even if we have a privacy policy and they need to be updated because things change all the time. What you were doing for years to the day, both in the back again in terms of how you’re analyzing in the front end has changed GDP. Ours would be an example in Europe shield. A lot of these things require certain statements in the privacy policy. Is your number one. Get a privacy policy. Make sure it’s updated. Make sure it’s accurate. Number two. You should also, in terms of use, terms of service that basically protects the organization, the views and don’t sweep it, then join your website. Very important, Uh, you know, what does that come from? Our what

[00:37:19.77] spk_2:
does that cover in terms of use in terms of service for website were just what does that cover what kind of

[00:37:24.71] spk_5:
anything anybody might do on the Web site in terms of making donations. When the rules, if you have a block, people post content. Or they can take your content, things that can and can’t do in the protection organization from a lot of different kind of legal planes. Just a kind of a standard document every non profit should

[00:37:40.00] spk_4:
have. Okay, Okay. Is that

[00:37:42.11] spk_2:
public to Is that on the website turned

[00:40:12.61] spk_5:
to use an exit privacy policy. Okay. Okay. Now a lot of charity navigator, uh, recommends that you actually have a separate donor profit privacy policy. Just why I read their privacy policy typically only covers when you collect online, they recommend to get the four stars that you have a separate donor privacy that speaks specifically to the information you collect from donors both offline and online. So some might want Consider whether it makes sense to have a separately for a daughter policy and a separate link for a privacy policy. Just like just why there, uh, we talk about bad nerves being an issue. So way kind of crossed that box. Look, pull out all your vendor agreements, see if you’re covered. It’s not when they come up for dual negotiate, I would say annually, no. Once a few years, you should do a privacy audit That’s more formal process where I typically even organization lots of different questions. All their different practices later the cyber security and privacy. And we see where the gaps are. But, you know, one thing I do is kind of a simple one is kind of member. The five W’s in the h. You’re kind of doing news. Recording the five question the six questions asked. They call the five W’s. What? Remember the what? Why, who, where, when and the how. So what is what data we’re collecting? A lot of organizations don’t understand all the data they’re collecting, so get a handle. What data is your collecting? Why, why? You clicked on the state of more many organizations like more David, I need more data. You have the work more risk. You have rights. Onley collected data you need who has access to the data again. People should only have access to the P I. I personally identifiable information you collect who need to have that access. More people have access. The more things that could go wrong. Where? Where’s a dork? Data store. It’s an offline. Are they locked in? Cabinets are there, you know, with vendors. Have it. Are there volunteers? You have access to it. So where is the data stored? When? When is the day to delete it? We’ll talk about that a couple minutes. But you should only keep dating for Florence. You needed and know lots of non profit clients get data for years and years. Even if somebody, for example, is and donated 10 years. The more data you key, the more risk of presidents a loss. And then how House of Data being protected, like in terms of all that, when the data’s being kept, How is it being protected? Really important question You kind of answer all those questions is initial step. You’ve already gone a lot further than a lot of organizations and and kind of being better stewards. That information you collect, uh,

[00:40:13.35] spk_2:
on the, um made 12th 7 dubbed 17 70 on the May 12th 2017 show, I had a guest on talking about cybersecurity insurance.

[00:40:27.61] spk_5:
Yeah,

[00:40:35.61] spk_2:
so now, so listeners could go back to that 5 12 17 show. You can get a lot more detail there because we spent the whole half hour talking just about insurance. But what? What are some key things you want to say about what cyber insurance could protect you against?

[00:42:00.94] spk_5:
You should definitely have a cybersecurity policy with two things. You should make sure your vendor has a cyber security policy. It should be large enough to protect you if something went wrong. So for these bigger vendors, that should be a minimum five million anywhere from 10 to 20 million. You should be named as what they call an additional assured on the benders policy. So you have a direct right and claim against their policy. Putting that aside you non toughest wanna have their own cyber security policy. Okay, they won’t have a policy that basically match the company’s risk that organizations risk that kind of work. They do. You need to make sure has the specific terms that that cover that organization. I’ll give you a great example. We have one plane, very large non profit. Had a head of non had a cyber security policy. They were paying over $100,000 a year for I read through it my joy is released. Things it didn’t apply to them. It was a sign of security policy for a service provider, not for a organization using service providers. So they had to get a new policy. Has something happened? They would have been covered. So I know people hate these policies along their involved, but somebody should read them before you sign them. Work with a good agent that have your attorney be the policy. But every organization listening should have their own cyber security policy a minimum of one million up to depends on the amount of data collecting, uh, you know, on an annual basis in the kind of transactions were doing.

[00:42:23.60] spk_2:
We all hate insurance, but you know, whether it’s auto or homeowners air, I got flood and wind, and but, you know, it’s peace of mind. So and all the you know, all the headlines we see. I mean, this stuff can apply to you as well. Like like we’re talking about. So, uh, you’re not You’re not. Yeah, you’re not. You’re not free because you’re not profit or you’re not, uh, safe.

[00:43:15.62] spk_5:
Yep. It’s all over. When There That you should have one is a data retention and destruction plan. And, you know, this goes back to some of the questions we’re talking about. A data audit you only want keep Davis, or as long as you need it and you want to make sure get rid of it the right way right away. That really destroys the data. So if you have your organization doesn’t have one. You really want a formal data retention destruction plan? By the way, if I didn’t mention it to your killer app requires you that have that a place. So again, you need to think about it. It’s a good practicing of New York shoulders, and if I every organization should have it. Also, business continuity plan. You know, this has come up a lot with Kobe. 19. You know, organization should have a plan in place when something China’s for profit happens, it would. You know, this pandemic was challenging forgiven organizations who had a plan. And I think now we’re over advising plans to take into account the sites of things. But you should have a planet. You know, one of your critical providers goes down. If there’s a data breach, who do you call? You know. How do you respond? New York Shield activity are required Response in a very short period of time. Tony, Order Gate to kind of mitigating organizational damage is the damage that can occur. You need to do the right things early on. So having that in place to support

[00:43:43.94] spk_2:
is this is this the same is a disaster recovery plan. Is that what

[00:43:47.66] spk_5:
you say? Yeah.

[00:43:48.11] spk_4:
Okay.

[00:44:07.99] spk_1:
Time for our last break. Turn to communications. They’re former journalists. So you get help getting your message through it is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. They know exactly what to do to make it happen. The turn hyphen two dot ceo we’ve got but loads more time for data Privacy practices.

[00:44:51.06] spk_2:
I had a whole show Are I have to show half an hour on disaster recovery plans. I don’t remember the date, but, um, the guest was dar d a r v vor ca v e v e r k a dar viveca choose from one of the non profit technology conference shows. So if you go toe tony-martignetti dot com when you’re looking for the 5 12 17 show on cyber insurance that when I did. I did get the date on that one. This? Ah, this one don’t have the date. But the guest was Dar v Barca on disaster recovery plans, including including sometimes that alternate locations. Even depending how bad the disaster is. You might need a backup location. Do you have that in place?

[00:44:59.89] spk_5:
Yeah, and usually that’s for the benders. Using someone hosting they should have that in place. But released are non profits. It’s more cola called when something bad happens. You know what the weather sex you take to mitigate into remedy.

[00:45:16.49] spk_4:
Okay. Okay. Um

[00:45:17.46] spk_5:
and then, tony, one other thing I’ll add is, you know, a lot of people in this goes to people working from home. It’s even more important. But a lot will use their own devices. Your own PC, sometimes accessing work stuff. You want to have what they called the wild, deep policy. Bring your own device to work one of the views. And, Jones, if you’re accessing information from your personal phone from your computer, what are you allowed to do when you What is it you shouldn’t do? A lot of this is just good training.

[00:45:53.59] spk_2:
Yeah, whether right. Whether even allowed to use your own device. But then there has to be a non profit provided advice and all right, what about? So this is you mentioned that? What about other? We have other data privacy concerns. I’m sure we do around, ah, distributed workforce. And, you know, I think they’re gonna be changes to do work life, and there may There may be a lot more remote employees going forward Then we’re accustomed to just two months ago. So what about this? Having a more distributed workforce and around data privacy?

[00:47:38.88] spk_5:
Yeah, exactly. I kind of when I think about over 19 have been speaking about There was a philosopher and physicist, Thomas Kuhn, and he had a term paradigm shift that, you know, once in a while once a couple 100 years is that is a paradigm shift that changed the way we think of the world. You know, Not Newton Newton’s right. What was a paradigm shift? Mechanics. The paradigm shift and you don’t usually know is a paradigm in ship until after it happens. Kind of like a recession. You can’t look back. I certainly think over 19 at least in the short term and made the lumber could be, you know, paradigm shift The way we’re approaching work when we approach our our lives outside of work has changed dramatically. And there’s challenges with that. Sure, only people working from home, uh, heightens the risk associated with with data breach and unauthorized access. I’ve talked to my colleagues that been studies. The amount of research that happened have gone up dramatically. I don’t know about you, tony, but literally every week I get emails from CBS Chase Bank Wal Mart over Me gift card. Tell me to click on a link. It looks like it’s CBs dot com, but look, the sub tomato. It’s nothing like that. Exactly. When people working from home, they’re not. They just can’t be a safe. So there are a lot of things digital kind of a 10 to Now that we have a remote workforce, Uh, like what? What’s that?

[00:47:39.46] spk_2:
Yeah, OK, I think we’re gonna go onto something else. Yeah, Like what?

[00:48:06.94] spk_5:
I don’t know. I can tell you. So you want to review if you have policies in place, review them. You don’t have policies in place. You need to kind of tell folks what’s expected of them when I’m working from home. Uh, need to communicate. You can’t over to communicate on these types of things. Training annual training would be helpful, but you’re a few of the things that could go wrong. Ah, lot of folks transfer, transfer organizational data to their email accounts and seventh and cells. A commercial email pound has a lot more protections in a personal email account. If they’re sending things from the from of the organization and downloading from emails, they should delete that email as soon as they get the day that they no longer need it. So don’t keep that in your emails that that could be hacked later on, uh, using personal cloud stores storage. Is that not all the same? Make sure the ones they’re using our secure physical document management. You know, we always think about digital data, but a lot of people bringing things from their office home and as a physical document, how is that being capped it when it’s all over leading houses being destroyed, it should be left in a car to be shredded. So let’s not. Let’s not forget about the security of physical documents, unsecured connections to employers if they’re not using BBN, that could be a problem. You need to make sure that people are accessing organizational information in a smart way.

[00:48:56.27] spk_4:
Yeah, that one.

[00:48:56.95] spk_2:
That that’s you. That’s where you have to look to your Internet service provider, right for the for the security that they’re providing on on your connection.

[00:49:42.97] spk_5:
Well, here’s the thing. That’s that’s about your home router. Personal public routers. Let’s talk about personal people have personal. Rather, you come into my home and you access trying to access my Internet. You need a 13 digit pass code. Most people don’t do that when they’re working from home. A lot of people keeping unsecured network. So would you recommend anybody work home should basically activate their round of firewall and, you know, and utilize malware on their computers and and make make everything password protected. So that’s a great example of you. Don’t people think I’m hold? Who’s gonna access my information? That could be easily hacked your home router?

[00:49:48.43] spk_2:
Yeah, okay. On our malware protection so that I mean, that’s something that the employees would have to subscribe to.

[00:49:55.27] spk_5:
Well, yeah. So we’re talking about non working shooters, right? Way are Yeah. You’re

[00:50:12.35] spk_2:
in your home? Yeah. I’m not writing home. I have next ride to where the company has got. The organization has to pay me to subscribe to, uh, malware bytes or something. One of the malware protection companies. Well, we’re in three Norton, 3 60 policies. Something like

[00:50:16.50] spk_5:
that. Yeah, well, working organization. But some of these things, like every router, comes to the ability to put put a password on it. So some of these things are just reminding employees and training them on best practices. Are you working from home here? Like the 10 tips you should be keeping in mind Remind them about from time to time. A lot of a lot of unauthorized access and data breaches. A large percentage could be avoided with just some kind of smart polluting practices.

[00:50:58.80] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Yeah, there’s I think they’re gonna be a lot more people working from home. Ah, year from now than there were in 2019. Um, I mean, including on the employee side. I’ve heard from a few people that they like working from home. No. And there have been there. I just saw. I just saw study some research like yesterday or something, but were more productive when we’re working from home

[00:51:08.93] spk_5:
back. I

[00:51:45.12] spk_2:
don’t. Well, there’s a lot of reasons. Plus, it’s better for the environment. You save commuting costs, you save gas or public transit. We’re keeping people off the roads. It’s safer. Better for the environment. Yeah, there’s a lot of advantages. All right. Um, I’m you know, I’m a neo fighting all these things, but I know how to read. I can read and regurgitate. I’m like, I’m, like, a like a billboard that you put something on my forehead and then you can read it off my forehead. That Z that’s my role. Um, all right, so we got, like, another three minutes or so, Roughly. You want to leave us with? Yeah, I think you have some. Some resource is tools you can recommend.

[00:51:51.86] spk_5:
You know, I actually I have a lot of different checklists. You said you’re a billboard on a checklist maker s. So I have a variety demand check checklist related to both data data. Privacy on its GDP are policies which should be in there. Your privacy policy. What elements should be in there? No. People always ask me tony can you just give me privacy policy and, like, know who’s that? Privacy policy describes what you do. You know the worst thing that you take somebody else’s privacy policy from another wet side. A is copyright infringement, but it never fits where you’re doing. So I can give you a list, for example, elements that need to be every province in policy. But how you address those, for example, depends upon what your organization is doing with the data. How is it looking at in the back? It? How is this sharing what third party better is really working with? So a lot of my re sources are kind of best practices and tips. I’m happy. I know you get my email just before I’m strictly looking access. But what’s like? I’m happy to kind of, you know, give me some people toe, depending on their needs. Anything we talked about today, there’s a checklist for that.

[00:52:51.88] spk_2:
Uh, these aren’t on the check the silent on the Perlman website, though

[00:52:56.55] spk_5:
I don’t think we posted on the website. Typically, I like to hear what the client needs. Just before, I kind of threw out checklist because, you know, sometimes a lot of information to be overwhelming.

[00:53:14.11] spk_2:
Okay, so, John, at permanent perlman dot com. Um, all right, John. I mean, uh, is there anything you want, toe? I’ll give you a chance to close. And you want to close with?

[00:53:20.65] spk_5:
No, this is again. Thank you for the opportunity I started. I think our conversations saying that you know what I’ve seen? It’s not profits have really kind of lagged for profits and kind of, you know, taking some of these precautions. A lot of things you talk about are simply achieved. It takes a little time, little commitment, but taking some of these small steps, go a long way and come and you know you can never take it. You know, data breach on the north rise access off the table. But you can certainly kind of mitigate risks and be better stewards of the data you’re collecting on behalf of her donors. So I hope this was helpful again. And I love kind of counseling our clients on these types of information the sets of policies of because I know it puts them in better stead.

[00:54:46.34] spk_2:
Yeah. All right. John Janet Perlman and roman dot com. Thank you. very much for doing that, John. Thank you for sharing my pleasure. Next week. Maria Simple returns, plus a 20 NTC panel. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Creative producer

[00:55:27.10] spk_0:
is clear. Meyer off. I did the postproduction. Sam Liebowitz managed The extreme shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. You with Me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for April 26, 2019: Strategic Knowledge Management & Ethics In Your Prospect Research

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Dar Veverka & Janice Chan: Strategic Knowledge Management
Documents. Data. Projects. Governance. Training. They’re all components of knowledge management and our panel from 19NTC explains how to manage properly. Both returning, they’re Dar Veverka from Urban Teachers and Janice Chan at Shift and Scaffold.





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Maria Semple: Ethics In Your Prospect Research
There’s a lot of personal and private info available on your donors, volunteers and prospects.  Your researcher’s job is to find it. Where are the boundaries? How do you protect it? Maria Semple takes on these and other potential landmines. She’s our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder.





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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with a case of stati O p Jia if you kicked me in the butt with the idea that you missed today’s show Strategic knowledge management documents, data projects, governance, training They’re all components of knowledge management and our panel from nineteen ntcdinosaur planes. How to manage properly both returning there. Dar Viv arika from Urban teachers and Janice Chan at Shift in Scaffold and Ethics in your Prospect Research There’s a lot of personal and private info available about all of us and your donors. Your researchers job is to find it. Where are the boundaries? How do you protect it? Maria Simple takes on these and other potential landmines. She’s our prospect research contributor and the Prospect Finder. I’m Tony Steak to be the one we’re sponsored by Pursuant Full service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations made easy text NPR to four four four nine nine nine Here is strategic knowledge management from the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of nineteen ninety si. You know what that is? It’s the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. You know that we’re in Oregon, Portland, Oregon at the convention center. You know that all of our nineteen ninety si interviews are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me now are Darby Burka and Janice Chan. Dar is director of information technology and at urban teachers seated next to me and Janice Chan is consultant at Shift in Scaffold. Welcome back to the show. Both of you think you can be back. Thank you very much. Let’s so we’re talking about strategic knowledge management Your your workshop topic Strategic knowledge Management Don’t stop halfway. Janice. What? What? Halfway. What? What? What’s the problem here? Why do we need this session? Uh, my dar actually chose the name of the sessions and maybe you want to talk about that. Okay, Well, either won or you go for a lot of places. People think of knowledge management as solely just We put some documents and SharePoint. We organize the things on our file server and that’s it. They stop there. But that’s really just a foundational piece for knowledge management, and it’s really just a small part of it. So our session was going over the other things you need to consider instead of just we filed our documents. Okay, Janice, how would you know? Let’s make sure everybody has a common understanding of terms. What we need, what we mean when we say knowledge management. So this is, you know, when you’re in an organization, everybody needs some type of information. People have a lot of experience and expertise, but it’s it’s often trapped in people’s heads or we have the file somewhere, but nobody could find them. So I just end up asking darl the things. And so how do you make it so that the right and the people confined the right information at the right time when they need it on DH in the way that they needed? So they’re not spending an hour digging through unorganized sheer drive when we could have just organized and they’re like, Oh, I know howto Advil unt ears to our serum because it’s in the volunteermatch judgment folder and that, you know, like it’s in a place that makes sense. Teo Awesome to our organization. Okay, okay. I said, uh, the So the halfway point is the documents in a share point. And that’s where a lot of people are stopping but trouble? Yeah, a lot of folks just think that’s all you do, and it’s You need to go beyond that and get buy-in from the rest of your organization and think about the other ways that knowledge flow. A lot of knowledge flows through organizations, and it’s not just sitting in your SharePoint drive and you need to deal with How do you manage all that? A lot of places waste a lot of time. What are what are the other elements of knowledge? Management? Um, knowledge management comes into play with data governance. Were all data driven organizations these days. So you’ve got everything sitting in your databases. Why isn’t why are people dealing with processes around that? For knowledge management, you’ve got project management. You do you know these these built out tech projects that cost you thousands of dollars and nobody does the documentation or things about thinks about building things in. Like, for instance, whether the examples we gave it our session. If you’re redesigning a website you’ve already thought about who’s gonna be maintaining that. Whose job is that? After the fact? What do you need the vendor to do? What type of documentation. But people don’t build that into the project. They think about it, but he never actually get it into the formal project. So that’s all part of knowledge management. Okay, eyes, they’re more generous. And also things like training, right. Like when we have new staff, we think we need to train them. We need to onboard them, we think actively about that stuff. And then we don’t always think of it after That person is no longer the new employees. And so we don’t keep that going. And we lose a lot that way because things change right? We don’t necessary. Maybe updated as a star. Kind of referred, right? Like we know we made the how to guide. Great. We never have to update it. But that process of balls because we realized hey, this doesn’t work out as well as we thought. So now we’ve changed it, right? We’re applying that learning that can get loss of It’s not documented when that person who made that improvement walks out the door. You know they find your job or whatever or, you know, even just things like, you know, when people leave right, we don’t always capture that institutional knowledge. My people, when people leave and we’re just like all right, give us your email account password on like you know it. So making sure that that stays within the organization also that it just feeds back into the world, you know, sort of like when you manage a project and you kind of do be brief sometimes after a project. Hopefully you debrief. Does that go anywhere? Because if you have that meeting, then it’s only in the minds of people who were at that meeting. And that doesn’t That’s a lot of knowledge that maybe it’s useful to other people. Normalization will be used for moving forward, and it can easily get lost. We’Ll capture it. I presume you spent a lot of time in the session or have you had your session? OK, you’re dahna downside. Okay, Talking about resource is tools tools that we can use for for knowledge management going beyond documents. So let’s spend a good amount of time doing that. Janice, you want to start with, um, with a tool? Sure. So I think one of the things that way talked a little bit about there. Two types of knowledge is the explicit were just like here you do Step one. And here you do Step two, and usually the task knowledge is sort of like, you know, when you’re baking and you’re like what this done look like? Great. And it’s hard to figure that out sometimes. Like, you know, data governance. You’re like, How do I define those? Like, What does this mean? Why does this number look like not what I was expecting? And I think a lot of times we don’t always have the language. We don’t always have that shared language. Tio have that discussion. So when you map out a process right, if you do that diagram of like here’s, here’s what happens. Here’s which systems are connected to each other, and somebody’s like I never realized that right, Like that’s not the model that I have in my head of how these things fit together, and I had these other pieces that are not on the diagram that you just wrote. The act of like making those diagrams is is you know, Wei Tau have that conversation, get that knowledge out of people’s heads and get a documented right than other people can see. That s so There are a lot of tools for that. Like really simple. I’m sorry. Taxonomy. Taxonomy is another. Another helpful thing I think about autonomy is Oh, no Texas. Tow the grant like different things. Teo also think about it. Buy-in named Tulip zoho. I really like like paddle. It is really, like, cheap. Easy. It’s not made for that necessarily. But you can use it. Pagnoni. It’s really it’s men for teacher. A lot of teachers use it, I think. But it’s free. It’s You don’t have to, like, learn how to use it. There’s not like a steep learning curve, which is helpful for diagrams. You’re like, you know, you can just do pencil on paper, but you know, good, more advanced toward, You know you’re losing charts and all of that or more advanced. But they take longer to learn how to use, so that vanish now. So I’ve got a I’ve got a question. It may be embarrassingly basic, but we ask anyway. All right, So now if we have created this, uh, sort of this organizational chart or this this flow of this chart that in paddle it how do we How do we now preserve that so that people confined It is, It is. It is a simple is the shared drive on a network. I think it depends on what it is and what it’s for, right? Like if it’s hears we’re documenting our process for maybe managing volunteers. Or maybe this is how you make updates on your way you might share. You might save it wherever you might be in your share. Dr. It’s wherever you have your documentation, which honestly, should be wherever people go, because if people don’t go to it, then you have to do that whole, like trying to get people to go to. No place is just more on top of more like it’s just not gonna happen when they already are exactly exactly wherever they are. Just just make it work for there. Okay, okay. Time for a break. Pursuant. the art of first Impressions. How to combine strategy analytics and creative to capture new capture, captivate its, actually captivate new donors and keep them coming back. It’s their e book. It’s on donor acquisition and how to make a smashing first impression. You will find it on the listener landing page at tony dot m. A slash pursuing capital p for please, of course. Now let’s go back to strategic knowledge management. Another tool door you can share with you a couple things I can think about. We demonstrated some visual tools, just having simple visual guides to guide people on what systems do what we demonstrated several of those yesterday, and we also know what kind of systems are we talking about? A different knowledge systems. Maybe you’ve got databases. Maybe you’ve got documents, shares, maybe a process. Documents for the finance system live somewhere else. How our users supposed to know what system Teo use if they don’t even know what systems that you have so doing visual guides for where do I find this? Or where do I put that simple stuff that people can literally stick on? The fridge is in their offices, so people see that constantly as a reminder. We demonstrated some landing pages in Portales. A lot of people think of of that is just a way to get into the document management system. But you could do so much more with a portal you can have links to. Resource is links two different systems guides on where you should put stuff. Updates from the internal newsletter. To remind people of recent resource is way did a whole system of links. If folks check the collaborative notes for our session, we put about a page and a half of links for folks to different tools. And then he also made a Google drive of downloadable resource is for folks to express. Okay, well, we need to identify the first. Where’s the where’s the sheet of patient half of links that’s going to be in the collaborative notes for our session. With that, it’s it’s on this session. If you go to the session page on the NDC agenda, there will be a link to our social. Okay, so you start in ten dot org’s, then you go into the conference, extend into the agenda. Great. So on on Wednesday morning, we have is the strategic Knowledge management. If you click on that the session description, all of the links Aaron there Wave also tested it on both of our Twitter accounts. And then we can also post at the forums and handup Florence under the Where do we want? Put that one in the main discussion or debate? Remain discussion with the mid discussion for him with us. The links because we did a lot of resource, is this is a lot for folks to absorb. Let’s take time. What is your what? Your Twitter ID? Oh, sure example. At Darva arika d a r E v e r k Darby murcott Janice What’s yours? It’s a curiosity bilich at curiosity. Bone or bones? Singular singular curiosity. Bone going challenge metoo way. Curiosity is much easier to spell them. Geever. That’s curiosity Bone. OK, OK, good. All right, So now where else is it? Besides the Twitter Twitter accounts, you said it’s in a forum. Thie tenn dot org’s community forums will go ahead, and we’ll post that on the discussion. And then I think the decision makers would be a good one for that as well. And folks confined that okay, community forums within within ten dahna. Or there’s an decision makers as well as a discussed one, and we’LL go ahead and put that link up for folks because we did a lot of research, and a lot of resource is because we know it’s it’s hard to keep track. We’re gonna have to talk about some of these because we’re doing this for about ten minutes and I have a half hour segment to fill. So it’s okay. You don’t hook with Don’t look with go to the community forum, weigh a lot more. Okay. Okay, Janice, go ahead. Your turn, please. S o. I think that Okay, way talked about sort of the diagram diagrams. They’re, like, my favorite way. Talked about training, right? So I think also in terms of thinking, we talked a little bit about, like, the explicit versus task knowledge. And so sometimes it’s sort of like you’re like, where do I start? Right, So, like, I think that, like, just starting with getting things out of people’s heads, and you’ii think you come up together with some strategies like the, you know, shadowing people and sort of like doing the retrospective after an offense or things like that about shadowing something in real life. What’s that about shuttering people? So, you know, sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience. It’s like, maybe haven’t somebody knew who’s coming on board and they ask all these questions. You’re like, I never would have thought to explain them if you had an *** that question. So sometimes, you know, in terms of getting that knowledge out of someone’s head, we don’t always realize that we have it because we’re like, Oh, yeah, like I just do it. And I’ve been doing this for a long time, and I don’t realize that that, you know, personal system that I’ve come up with for how to get this done really efficiently, that that’s actually knowledge that is useful and that I can share with someone else, like I could teach somebody else I do. This, it is, may be hard to think about how to do that, and sometimes the best, like the easiest way is to have someone who doesn’t have that experience watch you do, you know, like maybe how do I, you know, host a good podcast? How do I do an interview, right? And so you watch somebody else do it, and then you come up with these. You either like notice. Oh, they’re doing it. This and this order, they’re doing it in this way. Or it’s an opportunity to ask that question of, you know, like, why did you choose to do it that way? Right? And I wouldn’t have thought to explain the decision for me, Like, you know, I’ve done this a million times advantage, just, you know, So I think that’s a good, easy way to pull it out. Anybody could do it. Another simple related to that. Is it sort of just telling someone like, Oh, yeah, you just go enter this over there. You could use simple tools that we all have on our laptops I movie or another, you know, quickie tool, off of Windows, laptop and just scream cast really quick what you’re actually doing and capture that in a thirty second video. You know, you could post that internally. A lot of us use chat programs at work, you know, slack or G chat or whatever. You could post that straight in there on a team channel and say by the way. This is how you do the thing. And then if people have questions about, why are you doing it? That way you can have more of a live back and forth and just a static. You know, just go do that thing. But I think even to write, like not just the not just sharing it in that moment when somebody has that question, but making sure that it’s it’s stored somewhere that people confined it later because they’re like you had that question. Probably five other people will have that question. So let me just save save the time now and just put in a place where you could find all of the screen cast on DH. Yeah, they’re a lot of simple, like snag. It is. Another one is just really. It’s really simple to use on. It’s not that expensive, so a screen Flo would be another one that’s a little bit more pricey. It’s maybe ninety nine, but it’s it’s another good moflow captures maggot. What you’re doing live on your computer to demonstrate that for folks, Maybe you’ve got your Tio. You know, a lot of folks are purely remote offices, so you might not have that ability to sit one on one, but you you could capture what you’re doing for a training video like Janice mentioned. If one person has that question, you know, ten other people have got that questions of capturing that knowledge of them, making sure you get that knowledge out as well, Not just capturing at once, but making sure people know where that resource is good. And sometimes that’s faster, right? Like trying to get somebody to like, can you? Right, the out, all the stops and documentation. They just look at you with that leg. Look like I don’t want to need you to spend time like if you were to ask him to show you that I’m like, Oh, yeah, like you did so did it up right? And and so that’s almost a wayto document more quickly. So especially people who don’t like to write things out or like they’re really stress out about it, but are willing to answer that question in that moment. If you can capture that then and make it easy for them, I think sometimes that it’s pompel for that, Uh, I don’t have anything else to say except what other? Whatever tools we got when I was trying, I was trying to think of some different types of data needs, but I can’t I can’t think of any that that I was going to ask you about specifically. So you may as well just keep going. We can talk about women defremery. Sure, a couple of the other items we talked about that are sort of the basis for when we talk about knowledge management. People look at that and they go, How did I do that? What are some practical ways to do that? So we talked about having a knowledge management framework, and frameworks can be really intimidating for folks. They see that they look online and they say all these diagrams and they go. I don’t know what that is, but it’s really just a lens for thinking about the structure. Framework is just a structure. It’s a scaffold. Eso It’s how you build your knowledge management and a focus of what’s important for your organization. Is it that is Janice mentioned? Capturing tacit knowledge is a huge problem. Your organization nobody writes anything down. They leave and then you don’t know what they did so maybe you want to build your knowledge management process, focusing on capturing tacit knowledge. Maybe it is that you guys love doing documentation, but nobody ever updates the documentation. So maybe you need to build your framework on a continuous capturing of that knowledge and continues updating instead. So we talked about different ways to to think about how knowledge works at your organization and how you should build your structures around that. And then another simple tool that we talked about is a taxonomy, which most people already have at their organizations. But they don’t think about it, and it’s not really written down. And that’s the way you refer to commonalities. So maybe your know it. Urban teachers. We’ve got three remote offices, and we use acronyms in particular terms to refer to them. We’ve got terms for referring to our program and for different stages of our participants. That’s a taxonomy. That’s something we can use across all of our systems as a common language, and it usually starts in the in the document management system, and that’s often where people see it. They build that out across multiple systems that can be used in your CR M. It could be used in your HR system. It could be used in your documentation on when you start having a common taxonomy or lexicon like that, it makes it easier to capture knowledge management cause People start using the same things to refer to processes, and it helps bring teams together and really provides a cohesion around your knowledge in your organization. Just a common understanding. Yeah, and people are often they already have one. They just don’t think about it, his attacks on me, but in general, they’ve already got one. The other thing, too, is that you can capture all of this documentation, right? But if nobody knows what it’s called like if you call it volunteermatch judgment and I call it, I don’t know constitutent management or whatever, right, I that’s no good, because then I’m not finding I’m not looking under there because I don’t think that that’s relevant to what I’m looking for. So I think that that common language is also what makes it you know, that your consistent about it you can other people confined it. They know, like OK, when someone says like this is you know, our hears their marketing materials, right? I know that that our logo is considered our marketing materials, right? And some other places it might be under something else entirely. Might be, like under and join our brand your brands, right? So it doesn’t matter what that is, as long as there’s that shared understanding the organization. This is what it means so that I can go into the document German system or, you know, if I ask, ask somebody. Hey, I’m looking for acts, right? Like we have a shared. Understand what that means and what they look for it. How do you create the shared understanding and taxonomy if one doesn’t exist? You were saying, You know, it probably exists and you don’t know it, but suppose it doesn’t suppose you know, just lots of examples of people referring to the same thing by different names. That’s where you need treyz glossary. What do you do it? It’s where you need to do a little bit of legwork. Someone on your team. It’s usually on the team, but not necessarily needs to do some knowledge. Management work needs to work with those teams, and, you know, maybe you’ve got eight sites but they and they’re all talking about his Janice mentioned things under different labels, but they’re all really doing operations, functions or volunteermatch judgment. So you work with those individual departments are sites and you find out what their commonalities are because a lot of knowledge management is about finding commonalities between things a lot of groundwork. Yeah, And you do you have to, As Janice said very aptly yesterday, you’ve gotta invest some time to save some time. You know, you can’t get saved time for free. You need to invest some some leg work up front. So if you work with those different departments to figure out what their commonalities r and you work with them to build a lexicon, you’re going to find that people aren’t is really determined to refer to something as a particular thing as they once thought. When you start showing them the commonalities on DH when I’ve done taxonomy, is that organizations? In all three cases, I’ve had to do it. People end up agreeing on the taxonomy because they you know when when you get him talking, they’re really just talking about the same things. And they’re really not that invested in referring to it as a particular thing. They’re okay with going with operations instead of, you know, office, office management or something like that. You know, they released a little bit, and they realize special and you promoted as like, you know, we’re trying to make it easier to work together. They tend to release a little bit and go. Yeah, okay. We’re cool with operations, OK? I’m surprised to hear that, actually, people would stick to their This is operations. Well, that’s what culture. So that way, that way. So So, Yeah, we talked a bit about organization because I think any time you talk about language, any time you talk about the way that we do things here, right, that is organizational culture. And you know you don’t have unorganised age culture that supports knowledge management that supports learning, right? Sharing of information. You know, sometimes people will get very Don’t touch my stuff. Stay in your lane. You know, this is my job. That’s your job. Whereas I think if you are learning organization, if you want to build that college culture of you know, we share our knowledge here and we all learn from each other. You know that obviously you don’t want those silos. That doesn’t work out very well. That’s kind of the essence of what you’re trying to do. But I think like the one of things that we talked about in terms of road blocks, where you’re trying to roll some stuff out and maybe people are like insecure, they viewed their knowledge is job security. And it’s not that Maybe that doesn’t come from a place where they used to work somewhere where you know that was an issue and that that certainly can be at an issue and in some organizations, But a lot of times it’s just that really, that individual like, you know, I want to make sure that I keep my job or I want to be seen as valuable. And you can use that to write because so it can be not were trying to steal your knowledge and take take your job away from here, take things away from you, but also you know, Hey, your knowledge is valuable and sometimes people don’t see that and helping them see that you’re acknowledges really valuable to the organization and look how much stronger the team could be if we all had could use that knowledge, and we could help you even more. And, you know, whatever you’re you’re role is all right. Gentle persuasion, all but all for the good of the mission. Absolutely. Way all could do a better job if we could come together with this agreement around this common language. Yeah. Yeah. And also acknowledging that you might be in an organization where you know there is a toxic or culture, and they’re no amount of knowledge. Management is going to fix that. So they’re just, you know, knowledge management cannot fix broken business process buzzes and broken culture. So there is an acknowledgement of that. You you’ve got larger problems if that’s going on in your organization, and we can fix that for you. We’ve had discussions about on the show previous ntcdinosaur about blaming technology when leadership or processes or culture are the problem, right? And I’m looking for a technology solution to a bad CEO, right? No amount of pretty software is going to fix something like that. No amount of nice, you know? Well streamlined document man, aren’t you? Knowledge management is going to fix that. Wait a couple more minutes together. Uh, what else did you talk about? That maybe some questions about some of the Okay, Well, a lot of the questions were related about related to culture and trying to get people on board with things when people were resistant. Because it’s hard to make it hard to make culture change. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it’s sort of like it needs become a part of the way you do that here. And so it needs to also be part of, you know, one way. Besides, getting people’s buy-in is also making a part of job expectations, making it part of your performance performance evaluation on DH. You know, just making it like every time we haven’t have a project meeting, right reflection is part of that. Every time we have a staff meeting, there’s there’s some aspect of knowledge mansion or we talk about. You know, every quarter we talk about what do we need to update? Maybe in document management? Maybe. What do we need? So like, nobody uses this folder. Nobody looks like this like it’s maybe we need to just archive it. We don’t need it anymore or things like that and building that in and acknowledging that you can’t do this solo, you need your stakeholders and identifying who those are early on and that you’re going to need some executive stake holders. Get them in. Earlier on, we talked about different techniques with you know, that straight project management type stuff. But in terms of knowledge management, get him onboard early. You know you’re going to need them to help you push this through on DH. Really? Make sure you take care of your stakeholders and you deal with the people that are not liking your process. Figure out why they don’t like your process and try and work with that. You know it might not make them your favorite stakeholder, but if you understand where they’re coming from, like Janis was just talking about, like understanding why they’re a road block that could be really key to getting past them and really making them invested in your project and turning them around to liking your project. Having good office relationships helps also yeah, long before we’re talking about knowledge management. Just if you’re decent and it isn’t to your peers and colleagues and, uh, you get to know them outside the office, you know? And you’ve got his foundation of a relationship than when you’re calling on them for some. Some compromise. I think you’re more apt to get it. Yeah. They didn’t trust that. This is going to be good for the organization. This is We’re working towards the same goal if you don’t have that trust, and you need to start there like you need to start establishing Janet. You also mentioned the archive folder. I do plan e-giving consulting on. So I’m brought in sometimes to revive a program that’s stalled. And maybe there was a plan e-giving consultant or director. You know, four years ago. And then they eliminated the position, and it just kind of faded away, So I’m so I’m invited. Tio, update the files. Update the files. I can’t tell you that the first full day I makes archive, I’m opening this. I don’t know what everything is from two thousand six. We’LL move archive. You know, it has no relevance reducing that I think producing that clutter are not overwhelming to people. What are things you that actually relevant to to our organisation and our operations now, like maybe we need to keep that. You know, we don’t care. We’re not sure if we need to keep out, and we’re keeping it just in case that sort of get it, clear it out of the way, right? Because, like, it’s not the stuff you’re using all the time. The stuff that you are using frequently That should be, you know, really central and real quick. Good technique. With that, people get really nervous when they say you’re going to delete those archives and they hide a copy of them. So you just do a process where you keep them. But you put them in a place where it’s not clogging up their search terms and assure them they really, really need that. You can still get that back for you, and that really helps them move it out of what? What’s searchable their day today life. But if they know that it’s still there somewhere, they often are much better with being able to archive because they’re not worried about you pushing the w good. Okay, Janice, I’m gonna give you a chance to wrap up. Oh, like she’s pulling together. So I think some of the biggest things we talked about were really like, Get things out of people’s heads, Get the knowledge out of people’s heads, make it organized so that people can find it in a way that it’s It’s not overwhelming to people what makes sense to them, right? And also not, you know, being aware of people’s what people are scared of or what people. But those hang ups or obstacles might be to make sure that we can address them and get them on board. And it sounds like a lot of rigging it is, but the passing that time out front will really help you save time down the road. All right, that was Janice Chan. She’s consultant Shift and scaffold on DH. Also Darby arika, director of information technology at Urban Teachers. You are with non-profit radios coverage of twenty nineteen, the non-profit Technology Conference. All of our nineteen ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks so much for being with us. I need to take a break. Wagner, CPS. They’re free. Webinar came and went earlier this month. Tips and tricks for your nine ninety you missed it. You suck. No, but you can get it back. You watch the archive? Yes. Lamenting wayward listener that’s you gets the archive. You learn how to use your nine ninety as a marketing tool. You goto Wagner cps dot com Click seminars go to the month of April. I know it’s a little convoluted, but they don’t have a landing page there. Wagner cps dot com Click seminars Go to April and you’LL find tips and tricks for your nine ninety. Now time for Tony’s take to be the one that is my video this week. Inspired by in an Air Force reunion that I put together. It’s not really fair for me to say I hosted it because it was on the Air Force base, where we all worked Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri in the mid to late eighties, and about thirty five of us came together and then you add spouses was like fifty people, a total, but we all had this shared experience of doing an unusual job. We were launch officers for Minuteman nuclear missiles at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri in the Reagan years, and so we came together and It was just wonderful seeing everybody reconnecting you. No way have had we’ve had to reunion since then, So some of us have gotten together at other times. But some of us we have some haven’t been seen since, like nineteen eighty eight eighty nine. But there’s a re connection immediate, and that was the inspiration from my video. Be the one and what? What I mean by that? You’re just gonna have to watch. The video is at tony martignetti dot com, and that is Tony. Take do now. It’s Miller time. No, it’s not Miller. It’s Maria time. Real simple. Maybe Maria drinks Miller. I don’t know. Probably not. She has better taste. She has better taste in that. She’s much, much more refined. She’s, Ah, she’s the prospect. Find her. She’s our our trainer all. She’s a Strainer and speaker on Prospect Research. He’s our research contributor. Her latest book is Magnify Your Business Tips, tools and Strategies for Growing Your Business or Your non-profit. She’s our Doi End of Dirt, cheap and free. She’s at the prospect finder dot com and at Maria Simple Maria. Simple. Welcome back after many, many months. Yes, thank you for having me back. It’s great to be here. Absolutely. You’ve been absent since Hurricane Florence, which you and I all know know verywell. Now we track hurricanes because we live in North Carolina very close to each other on that was last September, like September twelfth or so. Yes. You’re supposed to have been on. And you had to. You had to cancel because the hurricane was imminent. Yes, I was evacuating your evacuating, right. We had an evacuation order in my town, too. On. That’s last September. Now, are you Are you done with? You had some damage. You had more damaged than I did. Are you done re rebuilding? No, they haven’t even started. Yeah, that’s the problem that people don’t get. It’s hard is held to get contractors. And this is back from September. We’re talking about September. Well, yeah, well, we’ve got this contractors on site, but there have been a lot of insurance related issues, so that’s a whole other thing. Yeah, well, there’s that too, but but just the idea of getting contractors, people don’t realize that. Of course, I never did When I lived here in the city that it’s it’s It’s not uncommon for it to be years later. I mean, I guess we experienced it somewhat with Katrina. You saw, you know, the one year anniversary, the two year anniversary. But everybody, you know, Katrina struck me as a riel aberration. Although now as the climate changes, it’s it’s less so. But at the time, it seemed like, you know, it couldn’t be that devastating. But But even just Hurricane Florence from last September in the Carolinas, it is devastating. And people are still rebuilding and have not like like you. Yeah. Yeah. Still still waiting on a lot of a lot of work to get done. But you know what? I’m grateful and blessed to still have a roof over my head and we can live in our space so that that’s all good. Yeah, yesterday. I mean, when I say rebuilding, you weren’t destroyed. But you had you had damage damage in your in your apartment. What do you It’s a townhouse. Where do you have their townhouse? Condo. Thank you. Answer. Okay. That word eluded me. That’s a That’s an advance word from a condo. Right on your in your condo. Alright. So welcome back. It’s been many many months. I’m glad you’re back. Thank God you’re back. Um, so we’re talking about ethics? Um, what’s I mean? There is a lot of there’s a ton of private information and personal info, and you know, they have to be boundaries around what we collect and how we save what we do collect. That’s that’s issues here. Yes. So, you know, that’s definitely a lot of the issues here. You know, it’s it’s interesting because sometimes people will call me and they will say, You know, Maria, I need you to work up profiles, whatever these five or ten people we need, Thio know everything they’re interested in. You need to know their network on DH a sentence. They actually, as soon as they say that word network. I know that there’s a certain level of educating that I’m going to have to do even if I begin to start to work with this particular client. And and the reason for that is because what we as prospect researchers have access to, So whether you’re working for a small to midsize non-profit or you’re a college or university or ah ha, that all you have on ly to information that’s in the public domain. We do not have access to private information such as credit reports, right? So it’s important to make that distinction. Because when we’re looking at publicly available sources, we can never come up with a net worth. I don’t tell someone. Yeah, we’re going to get into detail on the Net worth conversation. I know you. Yeah, You specifically have wrote something on it. We’Ll get to that. Um but so let’s let’s let’s pursue what you just said about public versus private sources. I mean, I would think that when your clients hire you to do prospect research or when we task our prospect researchers if their in house, uh, we want all sources, whatever you can get it. Where did you get your hands on? No, right, that’s not so right. That’s that’s an uninformed doesn’t mean she can’t get your hands on. It might not be something that your organization would consider ethical. So an example of this might be, um, divorce records, right? So sometimes those be publicly access. However, think about this. If if you have to stop and think to yourself, how would how would this donor for a perspective donor-centric er ds. And if the answer to that is G, they might sever the relationship with our organization altogether. Then it’s simply not worth looking at those divorce records or even hey, even, maybe not. Maybe not be so extreme, but they would be upset that we were evaluating that. But But But But it has value. Okay, so let’s have a conversation. So I’m gonna push back. It has value to the organization. Um, if I’m trying to find out how much a person’s settlement is in a in a divorce, you know that that goes to what I think their capability is for giving to my organization. How much they gained or lost in a divorce is goingto figure into that calculus, all right, but just let’s say they’ve gained a million dollars from that divorce settlement. Are you entitled necessarily to that million dollars? It’s just like anybody making their money in any other way. Just because they have it doesn’t mean that they would want to gift any part of that settlement here working well, you, But you could say that about you could say that about anything. You could say that about their salary. Just because they make one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year doesn’t mean I’m entitled to any of it or one and a half million dollars a year. You could say that about anything, right? But that’s why I think you really want to rely more heavily on good old development, work and cultivation and developing a relationship and under standing what those people have an interest in funding on DH whether it’ll the lines properly rather than knowing the final settlement amount of what their divorces. Okay, But it’s still I mean, I I agree that it’s unseemly, but I’m I’m challenging it anyway because, uh, you’re stuck with me as the host. I mean, that’s the best. You’re the best reason I’ve come up with. So you’re stuck with it. You can either hang up or continue. It’s your choice on I’LL be fine without you. So don’t worry. You know, if you want to end up going so I mean, I’ll entertain myself. If nobody else, I just amuse myself. Um, no. Okay, so now but it’s still it goes to their potential. I mean, you’re you look at other sources of potential, right? Like like you public public public stock holdings, right? If the person happens to be an insider, you and I have talked about this, so this is not jargon jail material. You know, I’ve talked about this. If they’re an Insider Inc. Then their public, their their their stock holdings are public. That goes to their capacity to give. So why write? You have to find another reason why divorce settlement either gain or loss is not is not valuable info because because so far so far it’s analogous to a matter of public of insider stock. So when those when those insider stockholders file with the federal with the SEC right, the Securities and Exchange Commission, they know that this becomes part of a public filing that is completely searchable online, etcetera, etcetera. Operation will have it on their website. No eso again. It’s just what is the perception that they’re goingto have of you looking at the different types of records. So I think that again, and it’s just if your organization ends up having a policy that it’s perfectly fine to do that, then that’s fine. But I think that you do need to make a decision about you know if if are there certain types of records that you will consider off limits for your organization and just put a policy in place, whatever. Whatever way you decide to go, in the matter of, say, divorce records, for example, what’s another word not going against your policy? Do you think of another category of data? That’s Ah, a gray area. Um, you’re a professional, and you’re professional researcher. Yeah, well, you’ve been asked three years for other stuff that you felt uncomfortable with. Well, they’re what they’re I can remember one time in particular when I was researching an individual. Ah, that I decided not to put something in writing because I knew that the perspective donor-centric lorcan ization And this is this is across the board. You need to be aware of this, uh, altum non-profits do that. They could walk into your organization and say, Show me what you’ve amassed on the show Me any. Tell me my donor records. Show me my files. Right. Uh, so you need to be able to turn that over and know that they’ve been written in a very subjective and objective way. I’m sorry and not put anything subjective into it. No subjective statement. So, for example, there was something that I passed along to a development officer verbally, as opposed to putting it in writing, because I felt that it was going to potentially jeopardize our relationship that they were developing with that individual. However, it was very important that the development office, they’re new, that this person had insider trading and had done some paid a lot of fines for it in their background because they were considering this person as treasurer for the organisation Esso. I felt that it was my duty to toe let this officer know that this was in this person’s background because they just didn’t know that, right? Very Jermaine. Yeah, I think you might have used that as an example some other time for something else we talked about. That sounds familiar. Yeah, okay, but it’s a good one. It’s a poignant story. Okay, okay. All right, so So I. So I guess you’re saying divorce records. That’s the main. That’s the main thing that you find unseemly. And I do kind of like your standard do of what would if someone came in and read everything that we have on them. What would they say? How would they feel on that? That’s going to go to not only what you include, but how you describe it to how you describe your conversations with them. You know, you and I both agree that the best some of the best research, not all some of the best research comes from face to face meetings. How do you describe those meetings in your CR M after you’re back from the lunch or the dinner on DH? So thinking how the person would evaluate that feel about it could shade how you describe it? Okay, I gotto now. I just did a lot of talking. I gotta take a break. Hold on, Maria Simple. Stand by our last Break last break text to give you diversify your revenue by adding mobile e-giving. It is a misconception that this is only for disasters. That’s not true. You can build relationships by text. You do what you do it all the time with your family and friends. You can build relationships with donors as well. It’s very possible to do through texting. You learnt how, with the five part email, many course, um, to get into the many course you text NPR two four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Now we gotta do the live listener, love. Ah, and it’s Ah, live listeners are in starting abroad. Seoul, Seoul, South Korea Gotta send annual haserot comes a ham Nida, of course, to Seoul Moscow, Russia Welcome Moscow on DH Hanoi Hanoi, Vietnam Sometimes Vietnam is with us, but we can’t see the city. But today we can we know. We know it’s Hanoi. Welcome, live! Listen, love to Vietnam and also Istanbul, Turkey. Very happy to have you with us Live love to you and Burundi. I’m sorry. We cannot see your city Brandy, but we know you are with us. So live love. I think that’s a first for burned e cool. And here in the U. S. Only couple Tampa, Florida Live love to you New York, New York Multiple love to see that. And on the heels of the live listen, love comes the podcast Pleasantry are pleasant trees. It’s multiple. There’s more than one listener podcast. In fact, they’re over thirteen thousand, so I can’t just send one pleasantry. The pleasantries to you so glad that you are with us. However, non-profit radio fits into your schedule. Pleasantries to you. Thank you for being with us on the podcast. Now, we’ve got lots more time for ethics in your prospect research. Um, anything you want to say, Marie Sample. I gave a big diatribe, and then I cut you off with a with a with a break. Anything you want to add or comment on About what I just said. Now, Now, I think I think we covered that in general. But I did want to spend a little bit of time talking about, you know, potential code of ethics that the organization might want to follow on where they could find some guidelines. Yes, you get your dirt free and dirt free. Resource is cheapen defremery everything. Okay, So there’s this awesome organization that you’ve heard me mention it before. That professional researchers prospect researchers either belong to it were at minimum, will adhere to their code of ethics and its apra a p r a. Dahna work. So that stands for the Association of Professional Researchers for Advancement. And the thing about APRA is that they’ve got this page of their website that is actually dedicated to their statement of ethics. So it would be great if your listeners at least went to the after a website. Took a look at the ethics statement Whether or not you remember and really take a look at you know what is involved? What are the areas that you need to be aware of as you’re putting together your your code of ethics for your organization. And they’ve even got a wonderful ethics tool kit. A za pdf document that’s chock full of great resource is so I really would encourage your listeners to go check out our our listeners. Maria. Simple, please. You made that mistake. You made that part in that pronounced twice. I share the listselect hours. No ownership here. Yes. So I I went through. I was disappointed with the statement of ethics. I I found it kind of vague. However, the tool kit had the good examples. Like I was looking for examples. All right, um, of you know, they talk about, for instance, in the statement of ah, statement of ethics, they talk about bilich shall only record data that is appropriate to the fund-raising process. So I was thinking for I was looking for examples of what’s inappropriate, but it gets flushed out when you go to the when you go to the tool kit now, right? So let’s, uh let’s talk a little about Oso in the ethics statement, it suggests a couple things like you should not be. You should not be friending prospects that you’re doing research on with your personal accounts for one is that that’s right. Is that your statement? Yes, yes, that’s correct. And and also, you should be transparent when you are doing any type of research on behalf of your organization, right? So if you’re, uh if you’re if you’re calling somewhere to find out, you know, whatever. Somebody stop holdings are something like that, you know, in public stockholding records and and they ask you, you know who’s calling you. You have to be transparent as to who you are on DH, you know, and what organizations of your work you know as well. So you want to just make sure that your you do have maintained the standard. Okay, so So when you’re calling, you’re not just saying, uh, my name is Maria Simple, but you’re giving the name of the organization that you’re calling on behalf of two. Is that what you mean? Right? And quite frankly, it is rare that you’re going to be asked for, you know? So when they’re publicly source to information, they’re typically not going to be asking, you know who’s calling? I mean, I’ve never called. For example, if I can’t find information on tax assessment records, right or tax property tax records and I call it an assessor’s office, they’ve never really asked Who is this? Why are you asking? Because they know it’s publicly available information. They just give you the information that you’re looking for, you know, on that property record so you can call and ask about any property you know, anywhere in the United States, and you’d be able to get that information without being asked. But if in the in the event that you ever are rushed to be transparent, so the same goes on social media, right, um, you can That’s why you don’t want to make a fake profile. But I know I saw that. Yeah, people do that. You don’t want to make a fake Lincoln profile with the, you know, with the intention of trying to take all these people into becoming your first degree connections just so that you can reap all this wonderful information off their profile, right? Because now they might be okay. Here’s an interesting one. Suppose they’re talking about their divorce on, um, Now, don’t make it Facebook, because the likelihood of friending prospect on Facebook is pretty slim, I think. But let’s see. Well, wait. Now let’s see if they’re If they’re a fan of your organization Page, does their personal feed become visible to you? No. No, it doesn’t. No, no, it doesn’t work that way. Okay, but if they made any comments, you know, on DH, I got in. Any person would make a comment about their divorce, and I’m trying to I’m trying to make it more like trying to make it more likely. Okay. Suppose this supposes Twitter, Um, suppose you’re the organization is following them on Twitter. Um, and, uh, and there another bitter. Or maybe they’re ecstatic. Maybe they did great. You know, maybe the guy reaped a big reward. Um, it feels like he you know, he’s got over. So the guy or the woman is now bragging on Twitter and you’re following them. That’s that’s public now. Right now, it’s now it’s public. Now it’s public. So in my opinion, I think my fellow researchers would probably agree with this. It would be perfectly fine Teo to take a screenshot or quote what was said and then give attribution to the day, uh, that you saw this particular quote on Twitter. Ah, and but again write it in a very objective way. So you know you don’t write. You don’t introduce it by saying, you know, looks like metoo windfall in their divorce, as evidenced by the tweets. And, you know, just you know this so and so commented on their divorce by saying, you know, the couple was divorced, It would appear the divorce is final and the prospect had the following tweet regarding their divorce. Not now. Very objectively written. Okay, I agree. I see. Um, so going into the going into the er going to the tool kit? Um, they said something about list sharing that I was surprised by, um, list sharing. Never share lists with volunteers, key stakeholders, um, etcetera, etcetera. But But they were saying they said volunteers and key stakeholders. But we’ve talked about Andi. I’ve had other guests to talk about sharing lists with board members. But but this opportunity, it says you shouldn’t be sharing this with volunteers and key stakeholders. What do you make of that? Yes, so again have a very clear policy in place. So if your organization’s policy would be that the only stakeholders who would have access to discussion of proactively created list would be boardmember and state that on DH, then maybe put together ah, confidentiality confidentiality policy for your volunteers board members on employees. Also, by the way, on DH, we could talk a little bit later about a particular organization that has an excellent example of those types confidentiality agreements. But if you are going to start doing that type of list creation, discussion of lists or even quite frankly, discussion of any prepared profiles that you have on individuals, it’s going to be a good idea. Tto have thes confidentiality policies in place. Okay, okay, shut out the organization now go ahead. The one that has good, good examples. What right? And so there’s one called the National Council of non-profits. Ah, and the the way I actually got to their their confidentiality agreement was actually through through the two tool kit and through operas website. So that would be a really good place for you to start. And then, you know, get your way over to those agreements that they get very good samples that you could literally just, you know, very easily modify, um, plug in the name of your organization, you know, run it by your attorneys to make sure that being the language would be appropriate for your organization and then actually have these folks sign it. So, Fury, let’s say you’re only going to have the Development committee is going to be the only folks that have access to any, uh, any of these profiles or these lists that you create and make sure that everybody on that development committee, whether they be a boardmember or outside the board, you might have you might have some outside boardmember is also involved in development efforts. Have them sign the agreement as well. And then these documents have to be treated properly after they’re after there. You set the board meeting, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. If you decide to print anything out, be extremely careful about what happens with those documents. Try not to let any of them walk out of the room, make sure you’ve got a shredder in house. The last thing you want is for something to go into the trash and, you know, or recycling or whatever and then get, you know, literally the wind blow it around the neighborhood. So did you want to be careful? And even though it’s all publicly sourced information, still, it is something that, uh, that they were accepted the donor or perspective donor. You know, out there in aggregate, it could be a lot more valuable than individual discrete pieces of data that people have to go and find on, especially when it’s a list of fifty potential major donors, etcetera or even foundations. All right, I want to give you a shout out. You are. You are named in the Capital kit because you wrote an article about being more than networth for from non-profit times and we so So you already already explained why you need need no liabilities, not just assets if you if you’re going to do real net worth. But they shot you out in the tool kit. So I wanted to mention that. Okay, wait. Just have thiss flies, but it always does with you. So we just have, like, thirty seconds left. Um, wrap us up. Okay. So to wrap this up, then you’ve got all this wonderful information. Make sure that it is stored in a secure way. Locked file, password protected files if you you share it through e mail. Make sure through password protected, encrypted ways that you’re communicating this thes profiles and so forth on. So make sure that the data is all security in some way. Ah, if your whatever you’re using Teo as your cr m Teo donorsearch software, make sure it’s password protected. And I know exactly who has access to those passwords, then change them often. Thank you very much. Maria. Simple. She is the Prospect Finder trainer and speaker on Prospect Research are doi and of their cheapened free you’ll find her at the prospect finder dot com And at Marie, a simple thank you again. Maria, Thank you for having me. Good to see you again. Thanks. My pleasure. Next week, more from the non-profit technology conference. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuing by witness Deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations. Made Easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine A Creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer show. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other ninety five percent Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network e-giving Good. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at nine to ten p. M. 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Nonprofit Radio for March 8, 2019: What Does The Data Divulge?

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Steve MacLaughlin: What Does The Data Divulge? 
Predictors for planned gifts. The state of online giving. And what to expect for 2019 fundraising. Steve MacLaughlin from Blackbaud shares the data on these topics and explains what it means.






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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of pseudo graphia. If you wrote to me that you missed today’s show, what does the data divulge predictors for planned GIF ts the state of online giving and what to expect for twenty nineteen fund-raising. Steve MacLachlan from Blackbaud shares the data on these topics and explains what it means on Tony’s take to Act Blue and nineteen NTC. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text. NPR two four for four nine nine nine Real Pleasure to Welcome Back Steve McLachlan to Non-profit Radio He’s the vice president of Data and Analytics at Blackbaud and best selling author of Data Driven Non-profits. He spent twenty plus years with a broad range of companies, government institutions and non-profits. He’s been featured as a fund-raising non-profit sector and data expert in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, The Boston Globe. Blah, blah, blah The Chronicle. Philanthropy. Yes, yes! Blob blob. I’ve been I’ve been in some of these. I’ve been I was in The Chronicle. I was in The New York Times. I wasn’t I wasn’t in The Washington Post. I have not been in the Times. I’ve not been in the Boston Globe non-profit times. Yes, I was there. Stanford Social innovation with you. Yes, yes. Bloomberg Now I’ve been there on He’s appeared on National Public Radio. And of course, now it’s time for you, Stephen Hawking, to update your bio to say that you’ve appeared on Non-profit Radio. He’s at S MacLachlan, and the company is at blackbaud dot com. Welcome back, Steve MacLachlan. Thanks for having me back, Tony. Pleasure. Oh, you’re loud and clear. You use. I’m going to give a little shout out. You’re still loud and clear. I’m going to give a shout out to the mike that you and I both use. The yeti blew us B. Yes. Way both, like, the same high quality podcasting equipment. Absolutely. That And I I first heard that there were other people who, like I was on their shows and they sounded so clear. It happened twice. I was interviewed by other people, and I asked them both what they were using. And they said the yeti blew us B And, you know, one of them sent me a link to Amazon. And for a hundred bucks, it’s a very good mike. So there you go. Absolutely. Uh, And you’ve had yours. I think you told me you had yours a couple of years. A few years. Love it. Yeah. Shake it with me wherever I do. This kind of thing. You travel, you travel with it. I have travelled with it. Okay? It’s not travel friend. That’s kind of big. And yeah. Okay. Interesting. I never thought about doing that, but that’s how much you love it. So there you go. Shout out for Yeti Blue. Um, all right. So, uh, let’s see. Steam O’Clock in what’s been on your mind lately? You, uh, you here’s here’s what happened? You you tweeted something about a mysterious plan to gift, and you said it shouldn’t have been so mysterious. That was that was because of the because of the story on Alan Nayman in December eighteen. Or was there some other impetus to that tweet? I think it was probably that one. I think it was around there where you train with an eye. Reinardy. Yeah, I responded. Yeah, yeah, that was for years. You know, I every time these surprise gift stories come up, I always have the same reaction. Which is what? It really a surprise. I shouldn’t have tried. Should it have been you? And in this case, I think, yeah, you’re referring to the Alan Ayman story that was in, you know, all over the media towards end of year. And I was on the twitter, tweeting and sort of a pine that again. But this is a great story. A very generous individual. These are great organizations who are benefiting from this in a series of bequests. But should it have been a surprise? And even to a certain extent, does treating these gifts like surprises, undermined fundraisers and put them in a difficult position? Interesting. Alright, let CZ fill in a little bit. So he was a social worker in Washington state. His is final annual salary was something like sixty three thousand dollars a year. But he had earned a lot of money in banking and inherited a lot of money. Millions. But he had like a thirty year career in social work. He had left banking long before he died. Died young sixty to sixty three. Something like that. Live three sixty three live very frugally. They one of the one of the articles, said that he wore shoes that were held together with duct tape warrant drove a gel A peak are, uh, shopped in thrift shops. You get the idea. And then when he died, he had eleven million dollars to distribute and he gave it to, I don’t know, five charities or so something like that gave it all away. Never had children, never married. And you felt that those enormous planned gif ts shouldn’t have been a surprise. Ah, no, I wasn’t. I wasn’t sure I agreed with you, but let’s see why now we’re going now, now we’re off the twitter. We get a chance to get her off. The Twitter were talking and realize. Andi, you nailed the overarching story, and this is typically the overarching story and a lot of these. The stories you see in the news right? Frugal, individual, relatively low annual income, but makes a significant gift, and it surprises people. But I started to dig into the details because the details matter. And as you noted, you know, he was He worked it er in the state of Washington, Department of Social and Health Services for a number of years, and you win come around sixty three k. He You know, it was noted to be a very frugal individual, but there’s a some other details that come up to, for example, yes, go ahead. I left off the GIF ts. Yeah, yeah, well, he had inherited, you know, several million dollars previously from his parents when they were two seams. Um, and then if you start to look through the types of organizations that he made gifts, too, it makes sense. There’s a lot of affinity there, right? At least nine to ten organizations that he made terrible gifts to do. Almost all of them are related. Thio children’s charities or charities help benefit either low income families or children. Children with disabilities. His brother was disabled, so that was another thing that influenced his giving. You put those those things together and the picture starts to emerge. That’s a little bit a little bit clear. I think the other thing that’s worth noting is, um, for at least two of the organizations that he made a significant bequest to he made previously made a pretty large donation. So one organization in Washington pediatric Interim Care Center, he had made a ten thousand dollars online gift to that organization prior to a two and a half million dollars a request. And another organization, Tree House, which is a foster care group. We know from his background that he was involved in Mr Care programs. He made a five thousand dollars one time get to the organization before a nine hundred thousand dollar bequest. So again, not exactly out of thin air. Not a complete surprise. And a lot of the things that noted here, in terms of the income range and other things, actually do match up to what we see and other types of plan giving. Okay, we got We got to take our first break. Steve, Hold that. Of course, we’ll get right back. Teo. Mr. Nayman story Pursuant their newest free E book, The Art of First Impressions. It’s donor acquisition. To attract new donors, you make a smashing first impression. How do you do that? The book has the six guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy, including how to identify your your unique value. It’s got creative tips as well. You’ll find it at Tony dahna slash pursuant. You need that capital P for, please. All right, now, let’s go back to what is the day to divulge Steve, all right, And and one of those GIF TS was so large that the organs to the ten thousand dollar gift online was so large that the organization called to make sure that he had putting the right number of zeroes, that he didn’t intend at one hundred or thousand dollar gift. And he confirmed for them before they process the transactions, whatever that that it was indeed, a ten thousand dollar gift. So so that gift was a huge outlier for them, as were the other gifts that he made. But all right, so so now to those organizations, though. So were you saying that those organizations that got those huge gifts out of the blue and they came just a couple of months before he died. Were you saying that those organizations should have known? No. You couldn’t be saying that that there was a large that there would be a bequest for them, but or or just that. They should have paid more attention to him and possibly found out about his other intent engines. I think it’s the ladder, right? Obviously, if you have a gift of that amount and and a typical fund-raising programs, I think you would make certain assumptions about the type of stewardship and cultivation that would result from a gift of that level, even if it was an outlier. Or maybe especially because it’s an outlier and a a typical, Um, I think the other part two is, and you know this because you’ve got a lot of history and background plan giving that there’s a lot of myths about plan giving. You know the reality is a significant amount of plan. Gifts du come from individuals with lower income. You know, I think one of the study’s it’s reported, is the median annual income for the Quest. Commitment is only sixty thousand dollars a year. That totally falls in the rains we’re talking about here. I think there’s, you know, there’s the other myth that young people don’t make the quest. Uh, it’s on ly older donors will again data shows that that’s not true. If we look at it, donors who make decisions about their bequests commitment between the ages of forty and fifty four, there’s sixty percent of your best prospects. Maria, if you wait until people are sixty and seventy and older, um, that’s actually a much smaller pool of your best prospects. Your best prospects for plan giving and, in particular bequest krauz. Um, that’s where ninety percent of playing gifts come from, not from terrible gift annuities or crux and crack right overwhelm our request. Overwhelming because there are people who are forty to fifty four on. I think people may just not realise that that’s what the data shows. Okay, that’s interesting. My my concern about soliciting the bequests at younger ages on DH Interesting. And a lot of times I started fifty five. So we’re gonna have an interesting, robust conversation here. My concern about younger folks and I’ve even seen marketing or, um, articles. That’s a hard word from articles Yes, I’ve read read so infrequently that the word articles is difficult for me. I’ve read that, you know, there are There are some companies that are recommending promoting plan gives to people in their thirties even. But let’s stick with what you said forty to fifty four. My concern is that, you know, and and and we know that the last will is done like two, two and a half to three years before death, on average, on average. That’s what my concern is that that organization that puts you that you put in there will or that you that it gets put in the will at forty or forty five or fifty isn’t going to last until until death at in the eighties and nineties. And of course, longevity is getting getting hyre because life, circumstances change and the organizations that were important important enough to put in the will. And I’m I’m sure we agree that that’s a big step when you put an organization alongside your your husband, your wife, your children. That’s a huge step to put in organization in your will. But but even the organizations that are love that much in the forties and early fifties. I’m questioning whether those organizations are still going to be loved enough when that last will on average, gets done two years, but two and a half to three years before death. When the people are in their eighties and nineties, what do you think? So let’s let’s pretend that’s true. Boo. Then who’s the burden on? And I would say in that scenario the burden that is on the non-profit organization to continue Tio Stuart and move along that relationship so that you when that commitment you made of that decision you made when you were in your forties in your fifties when you’re in your seventies or eighties? Obviously, yes, people, people change their minds. People change decisions about there planning, but all of those decisions are influenced by something. And is it possible that in your forties and fifties you’d plan tto leave a portion of your estate to charity A And later on, you decide to charity B? Sure, I would say that’s just the same. Is it what you would see happen in principle or major E-giving or even other e-giving? Certainly, we know that donors change their minds about where they give and and how they give. Um plan giving isn’t isn’t immune to that. It doesn’t suspend those laws. Sure. Fund-raising and dahna behavior we already know. Yeah. All right. Well, um, stewardship. That’s a that’s a long time to Steward. Um All right. You make you make a good point. It is, right. I mean, I think we all recognize that zoho talk about a plan gift. A plan gift is usually a major gift. It’s just deferred, right. The difference is about the timing. You know? Am I making that gift today? Because I have liquidity, and I can make that significant gift today. Or is it differed because I want to make this gift, But But, you know, uh, until I passed away or something happens, I’m not able to make that gift, you know, timing different. So we’re, you know, we’re disagreeing about We’re just agreeing about roughly fifteen years because you you said forty to fifty four is the sweet spot, right? Did you have When where your best prospects are? Best way our people start subject. These types of initial decisions, you say forty, forty to fifty for that. That right? Forty to fifty for about six? Yeah. About sixty percent of all your best prospects are in that age range. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Because then it goes down from there. All right, All right. Because I typically start marketing around age fifty five for charities that have age a lot a lot. Don’t. Um yeah. All right. That’s all right. So we’re talking about fifteen years, Mohr, you know, ten, fifteen years Mohr of stewardship. Um, all right. I’ll I’ll take it in to take it under advisement. I I still am concerned that the lives are going to change in the and and the importance of the charities. You know, other things are gonna happen in life that are going toe elevate other charities. Now, you would say, Well, they might get at it, but that doesn’t mean that the initial one’s going to be subtracted. Granted. Okay, No, uh, take it under advisement. You’re Yeah. Okay. Okay. So the lesson for for these Washington say charities that had these windfalls was had they started the Mr name. And after he made his lifetime gif ts that we’re way off the charts for the for these charities, the one even questioning the amount it was so large online they might have learned about his intentions by Will is that is that Is that where you’re you’re going with that? I think so. I think also, it’s there’s a cautionary tale here that if we believe that these significant types of gifts are just going to appear out of nowhere that, in fact, there’s nothing as a fundraiser or is an executive director Seo over Non-profit Aiken dio. I’m almost it’s almost down to pure lock on, and I would reject that. It’s pure luck, I agree. But it is. You can start to plan for this. You can identify people with a higher likelihood. Ah, hyre inclination to make these types of gifts. And in fact, I think, you know, we’ve talked about this on Twitter and other places. Playing giving is a huge untapped opportunity. Yeah, and so so don’t think of it is magical or luck. Think of it as a huge untapped opportunity that you can build into your PA programs and be successful. But you gotta put the time and effort into it as well. Absolutely agree. Reject that notion of its just a windfall. They just happen magically. You can look at data you can look. Att Yeah, your data data you have on giving history and identify your best plan giving prospects irrespective of age. They they might even end up being in their forties, and you don’t know it because you don’t have A, um you’ll have a gin, your file on DH? Yeah, absolutely ages Only one part of it. I think when we look ATT plan giving likelihood things in the data that make that bubble up the top are certainly, you know, things like wealth and assets, but things like church attendance, loyalty to a cause. Another thing that we found in the past with predictive modeling is if those individuals are more civically involved, they they donate to a political campaign so they donate to things in their state local area. Another big factor is lack of living children. And that certainly played out Alan Damon’s case. He had no, wasn’t married, had no children. We see that all the time and plan giving, and it could be, you know, those children are older or they had no children. Those are all factors. It certainly isn’t just all down to age, and that’s a great point. And and for smaller organizations, because our our audience is small and midsize. However you define that I don’t. I never put any definitions or boundaries around that. A lot of what you’re getting at is going to be findable by meeting people and talking to them in terms of civic engagement. Ah, marital status, children, ages of children if they have them. So they volunteered your organization, factors like that. You, Khun, quickly get Teo. Well, that one. You’ll have that when you’ll know I’m I’m suggesting that a lot of what you were describing you wouldn’t be a smaller midsize shop, wouldn’t be able to find unless they were meeting unless they were talking to people. Or is that an out of date? Am I by a dinosaur? And that’s anachronistic opinion. I mean, I think that world is changing, and I think, you know, in the next couple of years, let’s just say for the next decade I think that’s going to change a lot, or, in fact, needs to change a lot way. Topic comes up all the time. We talk about organizations in their use of data. There’s a tendency to think of a smaller How does this data benefit of smaller organization and and a lot of cases, you know, if your ah if you’re a two million dollar or one million dollar non-profit organization, if you miss out on a big opportunity, there’s a significant impact there. If you raised sixty million dollars a year and you miss out on one or two opportunities, it has less impact so that the data actually becomes, you know, very valuable for mid size, smaller organizations to so, But I wantto get to some of the data points that you mentioned, Um, that that I was suggesting you you’d only learn if you talk to somebody. Like like, civic engagement, number of children not volunteering because you would know. You know, your volunteers are on DH. You rattled off a couple of others? I don’t remember, But it was occurring to me that you’d only find those out through conversations. But are you saying that databases are evolving? That would help us find this out without having to meet somebody? Yeah. I mean, a lot of these, a lot of these data elements or even models you would do our things that that non-profit organization’s been doing for, you know, probably twenty years. It’s just becoming Mohr wide spread and common as the cost of doing that continues to get lower and the value that people are realizing from it. Okay, okay. And, you know, you could also Yeah, the true enough. I mean, you can yeah, mining, no mining the social networks. They’re there cos that will do that for you. For your file. Blackbaud is probably one of them. I mean, you can do. Do you have that capability? Yes. Certainly. One of the things that we do with our customers as we have the ability to upend these types of data elements to a file. But actually, what’s more common is organizations ask us tow, screen their donors and identify people who have a major gift likelihood or a plain gift likelihood or an annual gift likelihood because you’re you also start to quickly drift into. I want to understand all the donors or potential supporters I have, and some are a better fit for different types. Of programs and others. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Uh, the Well, that’s the data accessibility that a lot a lot of people fear, but it exists on DH. If it’s there and you can use it for the benefit of your fund-raising, you might as well. All right. Um, absolutely. You want to talk about a little about digital? What? What? What’s on your mind about digital online? Fund-raising I have a lot on my mind about digital way. Just have an hour. Yeah. Sorry. I think the big thing is I recently wrote something about the fact that online giving it’s been around for twenty years. Now, that’s a long time. And yet a lot of the current perception or continued perception the sector is online. Is this new thing? No, it’s not. I mean, it’s a twenty year old. It’s moved out of the house. It’s grown up, uh, you know, and I think that’s going to call call into question. How long do we persist? Thinking about online is a totally separate animal from the rest of Fund-raising. When the reality is, it’s just a channel, right? It’s like direct mail. It’s like phone. It’s like street canvassing. It’s like events. It’s you know, it’s like, you know, we used to have basic cable and then we got all the advanced, you know, channels on cable. That’s what digital has brought us. But there’s still a lot of thinking about it. It’s a separate thing. We should think about it separately. I think now that we’re twenty years into this, we probably need Teo evolve our thinking and think about, you know, if we thought the last twenty years brought a lot of change. The next twenty is going to bring a really transformative change in a lot of ways. So the the online giving is still under ten percent. You’re the charitable giving reports puts it at eight and a half percent is that I have the eight and a half percent but growing heimans madox people. It’s growing. That study has been steadily growing. Yeah, that shocks people. But it’s interesting. The U. S. Department of Commerce publishes the percentage of all retail sales that happened on the Internet, and that’s only nine point eight percent. So again, I don’t know. Everyone may think you buy everything from Amazon and you buy everything online. The reality is less than ten percent of retail is online and less than ten percent of Fund-raising is online and they’re actually tracking pretty close. That just tells us consumer donorsearch Hey, viewer had a lot of cross over. OK, absolutely true about the retail I would, I would have guessed, I don’t know, forty or something less than ten. Just under ten. Nine point eight percent of all retail sales in the point eight percent are online. Dang Alright, alright. I knew I was going to learn from This is a part of this too. And it brings up another interesting question. Which is how how you fund-raising is not the same as what you fund-raising so to me. The how you fund-raising what channels to use your running a direct mail program. Do you do events? Do you send email? But then there is what gets fund-raising taste. And there’s a crossover, right? So are you Are you raising money through a monthly giving program? Are you being an annual giving program? Do you have mid level giving Major e-giving plan giving on? And these things really blurred the lines right? You know we’re talking about the the exact example previously that individual made to online gifts, you know, in excess of several thousand dollars. That’s very common these days. So to me, that’s less about the fact that they made the gift online and has more to do with Where do they fit into your fund-raising program? Because in a lot of cases online, it is. It’s just convenient. Right is less friction. There’s less steps, but it doesn’t. And this is another point. I think that’s come up on social media in a lot of debates is, well, is. There’s also a tendency to think, um, we need to put all of our money into digital and stop putting money into the traditional Let’s just call it analog stuff, and I love digital. But that’s crazy. Like that’s a bad idea. I think what we find is you need to have a mix. You gotta virality You’ve got to be a multi challenge. It’s gotta be, Yeah, yeah, that’s on. That’s consistent with what so many guests have said about communications. You have to be multi-channel. Your fund-raising needs to be as well. What are the right? So what are the larger sources of If if online is just only eight and a half percent where The biggest too. So what’s the biggest two sources of of channel? Yeah, of individual Give? Yes. Channels. Yeah. I mean, it’s going to be, you know, direct mail. Still direct phone. Yeah. Face-to-face canvassing and then digital and within digital, you’re going tohave email. You’re going have online ads. You’re going tohave social media. I mean, there’s probably, you know, a two dozen channels that we could look at you and, you know, digital. Just one of them. Sure, sure, alright, but but so direct mail is still the number one. The greatest source of individual giving is still from direct mail. No, I would say you really looked at the numbers. You would find that it is the face-to-face, not canvassing face-to-face, but face-to-face, I’m gonna go sit Tony in your living room this afternoon, and we’re going to discuss that three million dollars gift, okay? Because the reality is, um if you look at a ball, all of fund-raising eighty two percent of all the revenue comes from twenty percent of donors and those air come from significant gifts. So if he really got down to ah, what channel or what type of interaction raises the most money, it’s going to Major, give fund-raising and those air face-to-face conversations. Okay? We’re not having a conversation about just what raises the most money. I think what we want to understand is what is the mix of channels, right? Oh, yeah. Wait, no. You gotta that first gift might because you saw an advertisement on NPR. Or you got something in the mail or you saw something on social media, and you develop that relationship over time, and it takes a lot of channels to get there, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, I just, uh it seemed like a natural question. What is the largest. Steve. We’ve got to take a take a take another break. Okay, where you see Piela. They have an archive Webinar for you. Their accounting update. What has changed this year that Wagner knows categorically and you need to know just a skosh. New requirements for financial statements. For instance, that’s what the webinars about what’s new this year. You goto wagner cps dot com Click Resource is then Webinars. Now it’s time for Tony’s. Take two is next week. Act Blue and Non-profit Radio at the Non-profit Technology Conference in Portland, Oregon. ActBlue is our premiere sponsor at nineteen and TC. I hope you will come by booths five o eight and five ten where we are together in. In. If there is no five o nine in between us, that’s on five nines on the other side of the aisle. So we’re in a large booth together. Non-profit radio in ActBlue. Just just look for the booth with the bright studio lights, because I’m gonna be shooting video a cz. Well, as I’m capturing interviews for the coming months on the show, Act Blue is they’re talking about the power of small dollar donations. While I’m capturing interviews for now. I just said right this crap while I’m capturing you. Yeah. No shit. I just said that I need an intern. I am soliciting ob soliciting resumes for interns. So I have somebody to blame for this. Poor copy. Eso submit your resume Tonia tonia martignetti dot com And the next time there’s a mistaken my copy. You know that I will blame you so send your resume quickly. Alright, in the meantime? Um actblue Yes. You know them for their wildly popular on DH successful political grassroots fund-raising platform raised over three billion dollars. You can go to AC Blue and you can see the sea the counter. But now they want you to check out their platform and small dollar donation value for your organ. It’s no longer just for grassroots and political. So you do that a tony dot m a slash ActBlue. Come to the booth. Sabelo. Ah, the interview schedule. It’s completely booked. I’ve got thirty seven interviews in the two and a half days of NTC. Unbelievable. Non-profit radio, wildly popular. Last year. We had about eight or so empty slots this year. Not a single empty slot. I mean, we’re, you know, we’re taking bathroom breaks and lunch breaks, but thirty seven interviews come by. Come by. Say hello, Teo. Me and ActBlue. All right. That is Tony’s. Take two. Now, let’s get back to Steve McLaughlin. And what does the data divulge? You probably got a little more. Yes. You were just admonishing me for asking the question. About what? What What is the highest? What is the largest source of individual gifts? And I understand we’re not. We’re not. We’re not categorizing. One, two, three, four. The point is, you do need to be multi-channel, um, and and not not not focus on any anyone area. All right, so you got a little more you want to say in digital, I’m sure or on this on this subject, I mean, I think you’re spot on, you know, it’s got to be the multi-channel. I think the other thing that we’re learning is non-profits air starting to understand that it’s also the sequencing and those channels. I think if we look back ten or fifteen years from now, I think this is an area where artificial intelligence machine learning can really help. In some ways, which is understanding. What is the sequence of messaging? Is it? There’s a direct mail piece, followed by an email followed by an SMS message, followed by this followed by that followed by something that hasn’t been invented yet. That is the right sequence that drives donors to give or renew our whatever happens to be. And certainly I think another part worth noting is his mobile is part of this digital landscape. For a number of years, we’ve looked at the percentage of online donations that happen on a mobile device. Yes, in twenty eighteen, it was twenty four percent, right? So we’re done debating if mobile is a really important thing because it’s almost a quarter of all the online donations are happening on a mobile device, and that was only, like, nine percent a few years ago. So it’s that continues to grow. I think if you look put down the time Horizon Mobile has the potential to be one of the most transformative, um, elements of e-giving experience. Um, you know, there’s seven billion people on Planet Earth, and five billion of them have a mobile phone. There’s only like two and a half billion PCs. So mobile has a lot of potential. And you’ll see over time, e-giving will move the mobile. Um, a lot of these other type of non-profit interaction things will move to a mobile device. And I think a lot of ways that will help us get over our online versus offline hang up because a mobile devices, all those things in one, right? We don’t think about Oh, I’m online on my phone. No, You know, we just don’t think of it that way. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. So your point one, the points you made were past the debate whether you need to make sure that every page that you’re giving our all of that is mobile optimized that videos that your your videos you maybe sharing play, play properly on on, ah, a phone or a phone or a tablet. But you’re talking specifically about phones, so we’re we’re past all that you need to be one hundred percent mobile optimized, and so let’s so let’s talk some about sametz giving. What do we do? We know that specifically in terms of Is that the you don’t know? I’m asking a six different questions at one time. You’re stuck with me as a host. I’m sorry. There is. There is no other hosts non-profit radio, it’s me or dead air. So you’re stuck with me. Okay. The report says mobile donations, twenty four percent. Is that all SMS or no, That’s people going to a website and filling out an online form Ah, form on their phone. What is what’s in that? Twenty percent. Twenty four percent. We’re looking at donation to happen on a mobile device. We’re not looking at SMS SMS is interesting. Um, you know, there was a point in time several years ago where we saw SMS was going to be the new big thing and that turned out to not happen. I think it was the right medium, but the wrong method. So you know, two thousand ten was probably the big moment for text to give in the US there was the Haiti earthquake. There were tens of millions of dollars raised through SMS text to give. There was a lot of hype. Everyone said it’s all going to be text to give Ah and you fast forward to today And essentially that’s not what happened. What happened? Wass, Um we we were right about the medium that people would want to do something on a mobile device. But we were wrong about the method. Text to give was not going to be the method that people prefer to use for a lot of reasons. But really, what’s become sort of the most effective approaches when you optimize your website, your donation forms your email messages, your digital experience for mobile. Um people will give through that and and a significant portion, um, text to give. I don’t think it’s really, um, sort of panned out the way people thought. Now that’s not to say that SMS is a communication and an engagement tool hasn’t been successful. I think there’s a lot of examples of SMS being a good way to engage supporters, volunteers, activists. Um it’s just text to give, at least for the U. S. Um, I think it’s had its day and you’ll see the most of that just shifted people doing on a mobile device. Okay, interesting way. Have a sponsor text to give that well, not be happy to hear you’re and I’m sure they have a different take on this although they do mobile engagement also on DH there is that there is a lot I think is is do something. Are they the premier example of mobile text text, engagement? Do something dot or do something? There’s a lot there. Crisis text line right after them. The Lublin in the folks that crisis tech find right amazing stories of what? Sms from an engagement perspective and a programmatic perspective, they have some amazing work. They’ve done their, um, part of it. Just as would text to give one of the challenges. Is it’s? It’s a regulated industry. You got to deal with the telcos. Ah, the amount you Khun give is limited. Ah, all the rules around it are highly constrained. So would I rather get a one time, ten dollars text gift or what? I rather send them to my website? That’s optimized, and I get a twenty five dollars per month recurring gift or a thousand dollar gift. Um, you know, just some different things happening in that space, for sure. Okay, we got to take another break. Tell us. Can use more money needed to revenue sources. Stephen, I talkingabout multi-channel You get a long stream of passive revenue. This is passive revenue. When companies that you refer process their credit card transactions through, tell us, watch the video, then send these potential companies to watch the video. Could be trusty, local, local company that’s been supporting you. If they take credit cards, their their their prospects for this and you will get fifty percent of the fee of each transaction. That’s the long revenue stream. The video is that Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s. Now let’s go back to Steve McLachlan. Um, all right, so you know, we’ve got another twenty minutes or so. Roughly. Um, let’s talk a little about what you see. What your what your thoughts are around overall giving it’s up up a percent. A half in twenty. Eighteen. Um, And let’s talk about what you what you think is coming for twenty. Nineteen. That’s a wide open heart. Open topic. Yeah, well, first, I think we should note that despite the reports of the demise of Fund-raising Oh, yes, Yes. The reports were greatly exaggerated, right? You know, you You seen this over the past eighteen months? Eighteen months as much as anybody, right? Oh, the fund-raising. Is going to go down the tubes. The bottom is gonna fall out. Mass hysteria. Turns out in twenty eighteen. That didn’t happen. Way looked at about thirty two billion and fund-raising revenue across a wide range of organizations. And what we found with E-giving was up about one and a half percent on a year over year basis. And we actually took a step back and looked at a three year trend because a lot of stuff has happened in the past three years. And if you look at the three year trend, so twenty sixteen to twenty eighteen and you look at the same exact organizations and how they performed overall giving is up nine percent. Um, so I think that’s A positive one of things also tells us is that twenty seventeen was a much better year in terms of giving than what we may be thought a year ago, um and twenty eighteen was probably a return to more normal levels. Um, but I think most organizations would take nine percent over three years. And from a girl’s perspective now, help me understand this, Um, what’s the difference between the one and a half percent growth in overall and the and the nine percent? Sure. So, one half percent growth if we take the exact same non-profit organizations in twenty seventeen and we see how they performed in twenty, eighteen through one and a half percent here apples, apples, comparison. Um, but when you look at it over three years, you actually see it. It’s a nine percent growth rate. I think if anything that tells us, you know, twenty seventeen probably had a spike in giving caused by a multitude of factors the economy, uh, politics, lots of stuff. And maybe that got overlooked in a lot of the hysteria about what may or may not happen in giving in twenty eighteen. But overall, you know, growth is good. And certainly as we head into twenty nineteen. Um, we’re looking for some good news there, too. Okay. All right. See, So over three years, the growth was was nine percent. Um, so you’re you mentioned your charitable giving report Looks at about thirty two billion dollars in giving. Yeah, but total total individual giving is like, four hundred billion. So how total giving is about four hundred ten billion Total individual giving is what is it? Seventy percent of that. Okay, right. It’s a three quarter. It’s It’s usually three quarters of so, So so about three hundred billion. Um, so s So how do you answer the question? You’re looking at roughly ten percent of individual giving. Ifyou’re looking at thirty two billion and it’s three hundred billion total, How do you How do you respond if that za small percentage of total individual giving? So how do we know it’s representative of the whole? Well, you know, all data is only representative of itself not to get a topical right. Says that’s very esoteric. We’re looking at David and two billion dollars. That’s what happened for these organizations, I think one of the challenges. Um, no, one has all the data for the four hundred something billion dollars. Um, so if you’re looking to find the absolute number and all the data that doesn’t exist in one place, certainly what we tried to do with e-giving report on some of our researches, let’s try and have a very large, significant sample size. I’m not aware of anyone sample sizes larger and try and provide some insight and analysis there. That’s a interesting way I’ve touched on this from time to time through the years. Um, it’s related to the fact that we have to wait until June of each year when the giving us a report comes out to find out what the what the charitable giving was for the previous year. It just seems to me that in twenty nineteen, we shouldn’t have to wait six months on. I’m not, I guess. Well, I am implicitly imputing giving us a You know, there used to be the atlas of giving and Rob Mitchell was on the show a number of times. They had an algorithm that that they said was nineteen, ninety nine or ninety eight or ninety nine percent predictive. When you look back based on all kinds of econometric variables that they said they could predict. And then they change it every month. They could look, he didn’t call them predictions that could forecast he didn’t like the word predictions. It could forecast the future with these with these econometric variables, but that the, uh, the the atlas of giving no longer exists that it didn’t didn’t prevail. I don’t know. It’s just we don’t have a good measure. No one does have all the data. Why? Why do we have to wait six months? Made this twenty nineteen and we were just with all the with all the technology we have access to data. Why do we have to wait six months to know what happened in the previous year? You’re that your data scientist? Help me understand. Why is this so hard? Why can’t someone? Why can’t someone tackle this so that within a couple of weeks we know what happened in the previous year? Boy, do I want to get into this one way? Got about ten minutes left, so go ahead. Uh, well, I think a couple of things. One, Certainly. You know, my perspective is that what giving USA produces and what they’ve done for fifty plus years is is really valuable to the sector because it’s a lot of deep research in tow into the data and what’s happening and trends. But like anything, any benchmark, any report, I think we’ve got a really focus on How does it help? You know, what’s the point of it is that we wantto count how many billions were raised. I don’t think it’s necessarily that that makes for interesting headlines, but I think really, it’s about how do we make? How do we make that information actionable and in so many ways? I think what I continue to see is it’s really valuable for an organization, whether you’re one million dollars a year budget, human services organization or a fifty million dollar healthcare charity. You want this information, these insights because you want to be able to compare your performance to what else is happening in the sector, but probably more importantly, you want to be able to compare your performance to similar pierre organization, right? That’s how am I doing compared to others. And, you know, what is it that some of those organizations might be doing differently? That’s driving growth? Or am I outperforming them? And that’s useful to know? Yeah, I agree with all that, of course, that there is value. But why do we have to wait six months? That’s a long time. Six months is a long time to know what’s actionable from the previous year. Were you? Do you Do you remember the atlas of giving you? Are you familiar with what that was? I’m familiar with it. Yeah. Okay. Um, what did you think of Atlas of giving you can You’re free to disagree, Rob Mitchell Will doesn’t. Nobody listens to this show, so don’t worry about it. I’m starting to think that they had built some sort of black box. Proprietary forecast, right models, right? What was happening with e-giving? Um, that changed, uh, with a lot of frequency. Well, they don’t know. They updated the therefore decided it wasn’t That wasn’t a valuable, useful thing to have. Maybe. Yeah. I don’t know if it was the market or the marketing. You know, I was a small, a small company. Um, I have a background in economics, and I I, uh I mean, I wasn’t privy to their to their algorithm, but okay, s so I I used to lean toward that, basically, but it didn’t. It didn’t succeed. For whatever reason again, I think a lot of that is there was a small business and they were up against e-giving Yusa, which does have Ah, long history, like you said, fifty years. Okay, I don’t I’m not cutting off the topic. Steve Matlock, and we’ll go right back to it. You could respond to exactly right back to what I just said, but I got to take care of our sponsors. Last break is the last break. Text to give can use more, uh, more money, more engagement. You need a new revenue source. This is another way we’re talking multi-channel mobile giving. I know we just talked about it with Steve, but, uh, text to give is more than just mobile giving. It’s also mobile engagement. Um, but with their emphasising, is there five part email? Many course tto learn more about what they’re doing. It’s five e mails and the weight to get into the email. Many course is you text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Now, we’ve got several more minutes for what does the day to divulge? Um, okay, Um all right. Anything? What do you want to say? Anything. Response to what I was just saying you know again? I mean, I think any of these reports, anything analysis stuff we should always go back to. How can an non-profit apply it to what they’re doing? I think in the case of giving you say, they’re tryingto bring together a lot of data. Some of it is economic data, you know is, you know, when you’re tryingto forecast or predict what happened, it’s partially based on there’s IRS data. There’s economic data. There’s a number of factors there. I would say, You know, we sort of on the blackbaud side, we differed e-giving Yusa to say how much was given and toe which type of organizations was given, too, because that is a complex undertaking of which durney you know, that’s not our not our focus. We’re sort of Mohr interested in trying to understand things that a at a different level on more about what the trends are than the actual dollars. But then giving us a doesn’t even give us a forecast. I mean, they they say some generalities like the political environment and climate change, and so societal factors and the metoo movement, you know, will impact e-giving. But but they don’t, They don’t They don’t have any numbers along with their forecast. Uh, I mean, they don’t have any. Numerical forecast is what I mean. It sounds like you’ve got some topics and potential guests for your next show. Them. Well, you could be one of them, but yeah, but But nobody’s got the Why does it take? Why does it take six months? This’s twenty nineteen, for God’s sake. I just don’t understand why it takes six months to get the previous. All right, It seems to me we should be able to have it in, like, two weeks. Your data scientist, To prove me wrong, I I would defer to them. Uh, probably blackbaud should do it. You should take it on. You could do it in six weeks. You could beat them all right, Until I just I uninformed opinion, but I think it’s I think it’s doable. Maybe uninformed, but it’s still valid. It’s complete contradiction. All right, um all right. What do you What do you want to say about about About the future. I’ll get off the, uh, donor advised funds. Okay? And we talk about that once We got a couple, you just have a couple minutes left. Sure. What about them? They’re growing well. You know. They’re growing, I think. The Chronicle Plan B is noted that five of the top ten charities in the US or now don’t advise funds. You’re seeing a lot of growth there. I know there’s been a lot of talk about tax law changes, but it’s worth noting none of that tax law changes impacts dahna advice funds. So, you know, I think you’re going to continue to see them grow. I think you’re going to see the thresholds on those donorsearch vice fund start to move down. You know, it’s not going to be that I have to make a five or a ten thousand dollar gift to start one. You’re going to see those things lower. Um, I think it’s going to be part of a bigger part of giving, which is is different, right? You know, it’s not going to be, you know, certainly we track giving two foundations, but we don’t look at that in terms of the growth of giving, because it’s a bit of an intermediary in some cases. But I think you’re going to see dahna advice. One’s continued to grow uh, continue to be a bigger share of ware. Charitable giving goes on, and nonprofit organizations are gonna have to get better it both engaging with donors and educating them about, Hey, hey, it’s okay if you choose to use a donor advised fund, but but here’s how you can use that to help continue to give their organization and do things. And I think that’s that’s sort of the new reality. Like we talked about Mobile, the new normal dahna advice funds are here. They’re not going anywhere. They will only continue to get bigger. And that’s a part that fundraisers and and non-profit leaders need to pay attention to. That’s a great topic. I hosted a panel on the foundations at the foundation center, and we aired it here. Dahna advice. Funds are you know they’re a source of frustration for not for charities, starting with the fact that sometimes they don’t know who the gift is from the Schwab or the or the Fidelity. You know, I won’t tell them Yeah. I mean, I think it’s certainly create some frustration on the part of non-profits, but I think it’s not going away. Yeah. So how does he adapt to it? Um, you know, there’s probably a whole set of best practices that certain organizations have learned to embrace that, um, you know, that type of approach and again from a tax law perspective or some other other types of things, uh, they don’t really impact recover What donorsearch vice funds or doing? It’ll also be interesting to see what donorsearch vice funds due to, um, private foundations. What does it mean for local community foundations? Who who in some cases, do run their own donor advised funds as well? That’s a whole interesting ecosystem. Well, yeah, I mean, you could Well, I think of dahna advice funds, as the modest income persons foundation mean, I got it, you know, And and I I hear your point. The thresholds will will come down. You believe that? Sounds very very likely. So let’s say, you know, But for a thousand five thousand dollars, I can have a private foundation through a donor advice. I’m going to put the money in, and I and my kids, if I had kids could decide where, where, where, where and when to make those. And I don’t have the five percent spend requirement that private foundations have. All right. I guess I didn’t mean Teo. I’ll give you the last word. You’re the guest, but we do have to wrap up. So So give up. Give us a thirty second rap thirty second rap again. I think there’s a lot of positive trends in terms of e-giving what we’re seeing with digital, but ultimately it still comes back to How are we engaging with donors? How we steward that starting them. Um, how are we showing the impact that they have, Like all those, uh, basic bread and butter blocking and tackling. Insert your analogy here. Those are replaced by technology or anything else. You still have to do those things and the organizations that do those things well, the ones that will continue to grow and do more amazing work in the world. Steve McLachlan, He’s vice president of Data and Analytics at Blackbaud. You should follow the guy’s. Very smart. Very smart. Uh, at S McLachlan. It’s m a C Lachlan. Okay, at S McLaughlin on the companies that blackbaud dot com. Steve, thank you so much. Thanks for coming back. Great. Thanks, Tony. Real pleasure. Next week it is Jason Lewis and the War for Fund-raising talent. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, Find it on tony martignetti dot com. Responsive by pursuant online tools. Here’s where the music cue the music. Chris Care is responsive by pursuing. Oh, no, that’s my mistake. Now you don’t okay, turn the music down. That was Tony martignetti mistakes. You’re stuck with this host up there, but I’m the only one. Chris is doing the show perfectly, and I just screwed him up. Responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner CPAs Guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com By Telus Credit card and payment Processing your passive revenue stream Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations and engagement made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine Ah, creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Crisco terrorizes the line producer much better at his job than I am at mine shows Social media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by Scots Diner, Brooklyn, New York, with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. E-giving. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi. 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Nonprofit Radio for January 4, 2019: Stay Secure In 2019

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Jordan McCarthy: Stay Secure In 2019 
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Oppcoll. Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti Non-profit Radio Big Non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Happy New Year. Welcome. Welcome to Non-profit radio two point zero one nine. Whatever the hell that means. Welcome to the new Year. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of Pem Fergus Arithmetic. Assis, If you made me face the idea that you missed today’s show, stay secure in twenty nineteen. Let’s resolve to keep our technology and data safe in the new year. Jordan McCarthy will help. He’s with tech impact. And he’s got simple, proactive measures for the short term as well as bigger long term initiatives. For your consideration, stay safe on Tony’s Take two Time to be an insider. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled. Tony Dahna may slash pursuant by Wagner CPAs guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com. Bye. Tell us Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four, four nine nine nine How police to welcome Jordan McCarthy to the show. He is infrastructure and security lead at tech impact. He works with organizations of every shape and size from three person grassroots advocacy groups to three hundred plus Persson social service providers to help them figure out what kinds of technical tools, analyses and strategies will maximize their social impact. Yes. A decade of experience and systems and network administration, technical writing and education and technology policy analysis. Tech impact is at tech impact dot org’s and at tech underscore impact. Welcome to the show, Jordan. Thank you so much. It’s a real pleasure to be here. Thank you. And happy New Year. Oh, you as well, Thank you very much. Thanks. Um, Tech impact is Ah, non-profit itself. What? What are you doing there? So quite a lot. We are an interesting organization because we have the heart and soul of a non-profit, um and to some extent, you know, the constant, you know, running from one thing to the next. But we provide services in the style of a more traditional tea shop to other non-profit. That’s not the only thing we do. We actually have several arms, one of which I’m really, really fundez works arm, and they’re sort of a more traditionally non-profit ah division that does workforce development in Philadelphia, Wilmington in Las Vegas. I bring in underserved young people and giving them a solid foundation of skills in its various kinds of support and allows them to go back in their communities and give back and start off on really solid careers. But, um, I was out of the house. We provided all sorts of technical services advising, consulting, implementations and an ongoing support. Two non-profits of every shape and size. And what we do for each non-profit really depends on who they are and what they need. So we try to meet folks where they’re at and, you know, get a sense of who they are and then sculpt a package of services, whether ongoing or short term. There really helps them be more effective at whatever it is that they do using technology related. Yes, exactly. Right. So you know, we aren’t necessarily going to help for supply cars, but anything related to information technology. It pretty much falls under arm broke Now I saw that in training you partner with Idealware Idealware Sze CEO Karen Graham is bound to show a couple of times. I’m a big fan of Idealware. Did I see that right? You You do some partnering with them? Actually, yes. And we’ve partnered more closely than ever because we have actually merged with Idealware second back and idealware. Yeah are now basically part in parcel of the same organization. So we are tremendously excited about that, Looking forward to working with Karen and her team to really redouble our efforts in the area of education and training and really trying to get people empowered to do some more of that stuff on their own. So they don’t have to, you know, exclusively, Rely on, you know, chops like that Come back. We will be here still that people need us. But we want to give people a much much of the tooling and resources that they I can stomach so that they can be as effective as they can on their own looking Look at Non-profit radio outside the loop. I did not know that you had merged. Is there going to be a common name? But between you and idealware. So they are, I believe now, but we’re keeping the name check impact it’s sort of, you know, it’s It’s a nice broad umbrella Idealware is keeping their name is well, but I think there now, you know, one of our major flagship. Yeah, Not not. I don’t know what we’re calling it the subdivision because they are, you know, really powerhouse in their own right. But they’re a member of the family. Let’s say OK, how recent is that merger that I that I didn’t know? Only in the past couple months. Oh, good. Okay. I don’t feel so bad. All right. No, more like two or three months behind. Oh, that’s not so bad. I’m still reading the newspapers from October then. Okay, Trump. Um, So you want to see, um, social progress? You say that you want to see social progress shaped technology usage, not the other way around. What do you feel like? Non-profits are not doing as well as they as well as they could in this. That’s very interesting and complex questions. All right. What we have in our you know, I mean, we go. Don’t take. Don’t take a full hour on it, you know? But now I don’t know if we have time. You don’t want the one you don’t want to tail wag the dog? Yes, exactly like that. One of my personal driving philosophies, that sort of really, um they put me where I am today through various stint in higher education and the D. C think tank world. And what I know what that means to me. I think, is that I see, you know, technology is everywhere in today’s world, and we’re doing a lot with it. But a lot of what’s being done is not all that socially oriented, right? You know, I several years ago was already sort of concerned about what Facebook was doing to all of us. And now, you know, come two thousand eighteen and we get a really big download of exactly what’s been going on there and how they have not really been all that interested in doing good by the world on. You know, Facebook is obviously the bookie man of the day. But you could look at any big tech company, really and and ask. Okay, well, how much of this is socially relevant? And to be fair, many of these cos I do have a lot of really powerful, um, philanthropy arms, and they do a lot of really good work. But at a zoo community, I feel like the technology space isn’t as focused as it should be on solving the really big problems that we face as a society as a world, you know, matters of civil rights and environmental destruction so forth, Um, and I think that the non-profit community really does tackle those problems day in and day out. You know, that is their core focus. They’re kind of safety net providers in the whole bunch of different spaces where you know other sectors just aren’t quite stepping up. And so what I would really like to see is a fusion of the spirit and the really innovative thinking in terms of social development and progress on the non-profit side and be able to fuse that with the you know, really, under a nouriel creativity of the technology space so that we can see maur tools, Mohr types of work that leverage this tremendously powerful tool kit that we’ve developed over the past twenty years or so to really maximize the number of people who can be reached by a particular social intervention, you know, the number people who are aware of various pressing problems really raise the level of engagement. OK, tidy as a whole. Uh, Jordan, I want Our people are not only more aware of what’s going on, what’s really important, but that they also empowered to do something about it. That’s meaningful. Unhelpful. Okay, we got to take our first break, but I want to continue this thread of the conversation talking about Cem Cem. You know, idealware non-profit technology network and I feel like there’s we’re making inroads to this, but time for a break right now pursuing two New resource is on the listener landing page. The field guide to data driven fund-raising is practical steps to achieve your fund-raising goals using data and they’ve integrated case studies included and demystifying the donor experience guide you through creating a donor journey. That donor journey map plus savvy stewardship strategies. You find those two resource is on the listener landing page at Tony Dahna may slash pursuant capital P for please. All right, now, back to stay secure in twenty. Nineteen. Right. Jordan sometimes might take these brakes. I forget where we were, but I did not forget where we are. This time. But future breaks, I may ask you, Teo, be my crutch. Remind me what? That we were just talking about. OK, so where you want to see this fusion between social progress and the technology tools that can enable it support it? We’re making inroads, though. I mean, there’s there’s tech impact. There’s a non-profit technology network there’s idealware. Let’s see, I just had a guest on and Mae Chang a few weeks ago talking about instead of lean, startup lean impact, you know, howto iterated and learn fast from buy-in in your in your non-profits. I mean, that’s sort of ah, that is broader than just technology. But she was taking that technology that that tech startup theory of lean impact from Eric Reese and applying it here to non-profits. I feel like we’re making inroads, right? Oh, yeah. Okay. Which is not where you want it or not, where you want to be yet, right? I think you know the corporate world is really good about innovating rapidly and figuring out new things, Teo. New products to bring to market and new ways to capture the public attention and so forth. I mean, there was really good at it. That’s what they do. And I feel like the non-profit and civil society space. You know, it’s so focused on its core work, which is some of the most important work being done out there, right? You know, it is life saving work. It is world saving work that they don’t necessarily have much time to throw at considerations that might seem, in some ways, like overhead. You know, obviously fund-raising that one is a given, right? Everyone needs to do that. Yeah, but way. I’ll know that mandate all too well, but there are other things that are perhaps equally important, like keeping abreast of what opportunities are out there in the way of technical tools that could really help, you know again, reach more people or make your operations more efficient or save money or saved. The’s are all important investments and unfortunately, overhead. Gotta bad label several years ago. But, you know, Ah, non-profit radio were always bristling at that. That that thought that, Oh, you know, if it’s not direct service related, it’s wasted money and people won’t. Our donors won’t understand it on DH. They’ll think that we’re not good stewards of the money that they give us. That’s that that thinking has got to go out because we’re talking about investment in your organization and your people and in the services that you’re providing. That’s exactly right. Yeah, I mean and invested time and money to end up with a better, more efficient, leaner you gnome or impactful and state like that’s just there’s no way around it, right? I mean, you can’t deny that the most Well, I was gonna say most admired companies, Let’s just say the wealthiest cos whether they’re most admired. That’s ah, value judgment, but that you can’t deny that they’re constantly investing in in themselves in their people. Amazon, Google, Facebook. Was that Fang Netflix? You know, the company’s heir, constantly investing in technology, and there’s a lot of lessons to be learned in those types of investments. Oh, most definitely. And I think you know, I I also share your frustration with the whole idea that overhead is a bad thing because you know, it doesn’t matter and you know not to stare at their do it, Lee. But information security is often seen his overhead right. It’s something that you have to deal with on a regular basis. You know, you do it right. It’s always in the back of your mind and always take some resource is an attention, and you don’t really see immediate, tangible benefits because by definition, good security is not getting broken into right. And it’s hard to measure the value of a negative. I know, until, of course, you do get broken into and you see just how bad it can be. So I completely agree. I think overhead is a sort of A I wish it were not a bad term, but since it is, let’s get rid of it and call it something like, you know, core structural support, investment. That’s what investment you’re investing. Exactly. Yeah, that’s even better. And people understand that. And you’re asking people to invent me? If you’re talking to donors, you’re asking them to invest and you’re investing in the work that they’re investing in. You just give it to you, and you invest duitz. Okay? All right, Let’s school. Good. Uh, love that opening. So let’s let’s get to some some details. Tech impact has this excellent resource which we’re goingto sort of talk through. So if you could just goto tech impact dot or GE, is that the way to get it? I got it. But I forget, how did what did I do? You go to Tech Impact or GE. And then where, then Eleanor website. There’s a whole bunch of menus, and there’s a menu item for things that we do on underneath that there is a security section and I’ll go there. You’ll get brought Teo Page that ask you for just basic information. And then you get a quick security checklist of the top things that you can do is a non-profit or honestly, for that matter, as any kind of organisation or even a person to be safer in a world that is getting less safe. Okay, Yes. And I I want to thank Thank you that I appreciated that it was very minimal information that you asked for sometimes to get the resource, you know? Yes, it’s free. But you have to give up your your physical address. Ah, phone number. You know, I bristle it that for this resource, it was this name and email. That was it, that’s all. And that’s all I asked for When people join our list. Name and email. So thank you for that. Thank you for not going overboard with data collection. You know, I mean privacy, because then you have to preserve lead right to you. If you take my address, then you will have to preserve it and secure it. All right, So we’re gonna get to that. OK? Eso what kinds of risks are you concerned about your welcome to share client stories. I know you. You know, you do direct work with clients non-profits clients. So what types of risk air you seeing? So I think I unfortunately have gotten pretty Harry particularly. I would say over the past year, twenty eighteen was not a good year in so many ways. So what we’ve seen is that, ah, the tax that previously were targeted, let’s say, mostly at bigger fish especially, you know, corporate fish are now coming downstream to smaller organizations. And that is ah, indicative of AA few things. One important thing to understand about the space of ideas, security or insecurity, if you like, is that it is and has been for a while. It is dominated by big, actually corporate actors. I mean, These are international crime syndicates who exist in their their core business model is to break into other organizations and steal their intellectual property. Used there are rather abuse their infrastructure. For other, you know, malicious reasons just generally do as much damage as possible. Like steal half a billion addresses and credit card numbers from it was, Well, Marriott, Whatever the weight of a company emerged with Marriott last year. Spring him not Spring Hill, but Starwood Starwood, right. Half a billion addresses, credit card, a data passport information for some people compromise. And that’s just one example of yeah, well, you go back, you know, even a couple of years. And, you know, many, many big names just, you know, fly off the pages of a Home Depot. There was target argast, you know, the Office of Management and budget in the federal government like you be. These attackers have targeted very successfully the some of the largest institutions out there that have truly massive databases of personal information. But Betsy’s coming down, proceed. You Ah, go and steal people’s identities or you know what? They generative process, right? They take the information that they’ve stolen, and they use it to try to extract as much value from that data set and then build dated today to set further. So they might use those emails to send more spam, encouraging people to log into a fake. You know, Google, Sinan Page or something and thereby build their database even further on. And they really refined this. It’s not a technique, it’s a hole. World of techniques, really. It’s a business model over several years. Two at the point where it’s really a precision engineered process, and they have a specialization. They’re different parts of this black market ecosystem that specialize in breaking into accounts. They’re different ones that specialize in spamming. They’re different ones of specialized in setting up and distributing attack tool kits that make it even make it easy for people to start performing these attacks. So there’s a lot of specialization, a lot of a lot of different firms engaged in this process, and there’s a CZ. You pointed out this billions of dollars to be made in compromising organizations. Now rhetorically again. And even now, of course, the Holy Grail, if you will, is to break into a target or a Home Depot or something because they have millions upon millions of records, latto payment information and so on. But of course, you know, this is an arms race, and so the big companies have gotten somewhat better at securing themselves. Many of them have been hacked and therefore have been paying a lot of attention to their borders and making sure that you know they’re relatively safe and At the same time, the attacks have gotten cheaper to run because they’ve been systematized and really reached a sort of industrial level of scale, which means that it is easy and cheap to run attacks against smaller and smaller organizations profitably. And so that’s exactly what’s been happening is that, um, these very sophisticated attack tool kits and procedures have been used to go after smaller and smaller organizations. Ah, and another important thing to understand is that most of this work is not at all targeted. It’s very opportunistic. So you know, a. A big crime syndicate will get a big list of E mail addresses by way of breaking into a company’s database. And you know, there’ll be all sorts people on that on that email list. You know, private individuals, partners of the company and so on. And the attackers will just use that database and send out fairly generic phishing emails to everyone on the list on the assumption that sure most people will recognise this email that’s coming in is not actually asking to reset their Gmail password. But even one percent of the people on that you know, many million person list do actually take the bait that represents thousands and thousands of more accounts they’ve just broken into and a hand that can now use to execute even more attacks. And so there’s a lot of daisy chaining that’s going on here a lot of building on prior work or prior attacks to create even Mohr devastating attacks that target even more people. And so the non-profit space is sort of squarely in the sights of this black market ecosystem now. And so, you know, at any given day I c e mails coming in both to Tech impact itself and to our partners, who then forward them on to me. You know, maybe somewhere between five and ten fairly well crafted emails. Ah, on all sorts of subjects. You know, some of them say your Gmail account has been compromised. Please click here to reset your password. I saw a brilliant one just yesterday purportedly from American Express saying something is wrong with your card. You need to click here to review some another as transactions. This email wass spectacular. He had all the right branding. It was formatted exactly right. All of the links in the email even went to valid American Express Web pages except the big click Here button, which set you to the attack Paige that tried to get you to divulge your log in information for your American Express account. You’re saying that was very high level of sophistication mary-jo right now, very hot again, basically targeting everyone at this point. Okay. And that was very high quality, so very equality. And I mean, I think the big theme is I have seen a steady progression of the quality. So it started out, you know, in let’s say, Well, that’s a year ago, January of last year, Most of the stuff I was seeing was pretty shoddy, right? It had lots of spelling errors, very little in the way of visual branding. Um, you know, the formatting was terribly off. The email address didn’t look even remotely convincing. But you know the email I got yesterday again, everything about it was perfect. Except that one button and even the button. I mean, it was, well formatted. You would have to actually hover over it and noticed that the link point somewhere other than an American Express. But Paige Teo be able to tell that anything was wrong. Okay? S so natural. You know, next question is, what the hell are we going to do about this? So you’re you’re resource papers, got ideas, and you really want to start not with the technology, but with your people. Exactly. There’s a misconception in the general, you know, world at large that because this is a high tech problem, it must have Ah, hi tech solution. And more to the point that you know that high tech solution probably going to cost a lot of money. And it is true that there are some high tech solutions out there or I wouldn’t call them high tech. I would just call them, you know? Yes. Technical solutions. None of them are that involved. And, you know, you shouldn’t have to pay that much, if anything, for most of them. On the most effective solution to this kind of problem, um, is getting your team, your staff on board with the project of keeping the organization’s safe and helping them to understand just how pervasive and sophisticated the threats really are. You know, it’s hard to get a bunch of dedicated, hardworking, you know, non-profit staffers into a room for an hour and get them to listen to a lecture on you know how they need to care about security. You know, for all the reasons we talked about you so much rather be getting their work done. But if you can get your team to understand that this is the risk Israel, the threats are, you know they’re significant and growing. I get people to just adopt a stance of reasonable vigilance, you know, not full blown paranoia, but just being a little bit, you know, thoughtful about everything they click on, whether it be an E mail that comes in from that they weren’t expecting, even if it comes from someone they know. Because part of this whole like iterative process in the attack space is that attackers will break into an email account and then send emails to every single person in that now hijacked account’s address book so that the emails do, in fact, come from someone that that person know you can’t even now just say, Oh, as long as I know the person, it’s fine may very well not be fine because you maybe not. But when you open an email and you’re not expecting it. And I’d ask you to go. You know, you this special report that, you know, if for your eyes only and what not especially if the person that you, uh, get this email from would never write that way. That should be a red flag. And similarly, whenever you’re browsing online, you need to be vigilant about what you click on you. No, don’t click obviously, on anything that says you’ve won a thousand dollars, because that is never true either. It’s certainly not true in real space, and it’s doubly not true online. And, you know, you always just have to be a little bit, you know, a little bit suspicious in back of your head. Think, Okay. Could there be another you No ulterior motive here? Like what? What’s the agenda of the person who sent me this thing or, you know, showing me this web page? Um, you know, is that someone I trust on? Do I have some context for why I’m being asked to enter my password here or provide this information Or click on this button? Um, is this going to do what I wanted to do? And if you can adopt that kind of a mind set and get your entire team to adopt that kind of a mind set. You become exponentially safer than most other folks around. Because this is a new mindset. It’s hard to shift your thinking, particularly the non-profit space, where we operate largely on the basis of trust. Right? You know, we have a lot of partners. Uh, you know, we have to trust that our partners are also interested in doing the same good work that we are. You know, we don’t want to wander around being endlessly suspicious of everyone, but unfortunately, the state of security online. Yeah. Yeah, You really have to be all the more vigilant. We just We just have about two minutes before break, tell us what’s been going on at Tech. Impact yourself. You’re you’re you’re CEO. You’re some sort Your CFO has been getting emails that purportedly come from your executive director. Oh, yeah. And we’re not alone. So the more sophisticated version of we’ve only really talked about one type of attack. And there are others that we might want to talk about. But, you know, let’s go quickly. There’s a different variant that isn’t quite fishing. So fishing is trying to get you to divulge your own personal information over email. But there’s a variant of that attack where someone writes into an organization pretending to be someone high up in the leadership team, the executive director or the CFO or someone like that and ask various members of the staff, Oh, I’m out of the office right now, but I really need you to conduct a transaction for me. I need you to buy some gift cards. Some of them get really creative, and they say, and they and they do their background research. And they say, Uh, we just had this annual conference, and I need to send gift cards to all of our speakers. Could you go out and buy those for me and then send me the codes from the back of those gift cards so I can, you know, send them along to peep folks by email. Those e mails, when they’re well done, can look exactly like they come from the executive director of the C. F O or whoever. And of course they don’t. And if you reply to them and do what they ask, you will be sending all sorts of things potentially financial information out to someone you’re never gonna be able to find again. Because they set up a fake e mail account for the purpose of trying to infiltrate your organization. And once they’ve done that, they’re going to get rid of it, and it’s going to be on Treyz schnoll. All right, we’re going where we’re going to take a take a break. And when we come back, I want youto continue this because I’m going to ask Ah, Jordan, how could this possibly happened? Attack impact. Okay, so ah, stand by for that weather. CPAs nufer the New Year. They’re kicking off a remote non-profit roundtable. Siri’s. They used to just be on location. Now they’re doing it remotely. Livestreaming each quarter a wagner’s C P a C P a will cover a topic that they’re intimately expert in. So they’re the experts, but you need to have a basic understanding of it. All right. I mean, you want to know what you want to have a rough idea of what you’re seeing is doing and what to do in the non-profit realm. That’s what they’re talking about. The first one is on January fifteenth about revenue recognition for your grants and contracts, you goto wagner cps dot com Click Resource is than seminars Now Time for Tony. Take two. It’s time for you to be an insider. A non-profit radio insider also nufer the New Year. I’m kicking off something expanded guest interviews that are going to be exclusively for non-profit radio insiders. Each week, I’m going to dive a little deeper into a topic with a guest or cover something we didn’t talk about on the show in these three to five minute videos. All right, the video is going to be on a private playlist entirely for insiders. Have you become an insider? Sounds like something that you would have to pay for. And you’re right. It does sound that way, but you don’t have to pay. Other people might charge for something like this, but I will not. Ah, all I do. All you do is go to twenty martignetti dot com. Click the insider alerts, button name and email Like George and I were just talking about that’s all you got to give and you become an insider. Tony martignetti dot com. Now let’s go back to Jordan on DH Stay secure in twenty nineteen Jordan How could this happen to tech impact? No. The unfortunate thing is this is really easy to do, and it’s easy to do for someone with not that much technical skill. And just because you get one of these emails that looks really carefully crafted and whatnot doesn’t mean anything has actually been weak or that you’ve been broken into every one of us as an organization has tons of information about us online, right? Certainly the names of our executive directors are incredibly easy to find. If nothing else, you can get them from our tax returns, right? And attackers again have built out this elaborate process that involves doing some basic background research on any organization that they want to attack. I’m sure that they go to the organization’s websites and maybe even look at their tax forms and find out other things about the organization’s. Actually, I read recently that many of these militias actors air now doing extensive Lincoln research on a particular people within an organization is they’re trying to go after, so you don’t know what they’re doing. They built the whole process around this on. They use the publicly available information to construct, you know, eh uh, intact. It is as plausible as they can make it. So, you know, if they see a mention on the Web site that there was a annual conference recently, they might throw that into the E mail again to try to make it that much more authentic. They might mention someone else on the team and say, Oh, you know, like, you know, pretend that the message was coming from your executive director. Oh, I tried to contact, You know, Jim our c F. O. And he was out of the office, but I really need this done. Can you help? It is very common behavior. Now, I will say each second a background research. That hacker does represent one less second of profit. Right. They don’t want to put in that much time. So you know, you shouldn’t worry generally unless you are really, really big and really, really interesting about, you know, hypothetical attackers scouring your web page and every other thing you’ve done publicly for information about you. They’re not going to do that, but it probably will spend, you know, a minute looking at the stuff they confined most easily. And then they’re gonna construct attacks based on what they found, uh, and make it seem like you know the emails. They’re sending our legitimate as possible. They also will do that, actually, not only even just pretending to be part of the organization, they will also try to extort you and say, you know, I found out all of this fallacious information about, you know, your executive director, or you know what your organisation’s doing on. They’ll drop some publicly available details that aren’t even remotely interesting and say, But I have so much Mohr and, you know, if you don’t want us to go out, then you have to pay me a lot of money. I actually saw entire wave of the attacks last month, and they they weren’t particularly well done. But they bothered to do a little bit of background research. So the bottom line is you’re going to get these emails on. They will contain information about you and that should not be as big of a red flag You as you might think. You shouldn’t respond to them. You shouldn’t do anything except, you know, look at them carefully make sure that there isn’t anything in there that really is private and that someone has figured out, because if that’s the case, you need to do a lot more work to get things locked down. Um, and again, just be suspicious. Don’t believe someone when they ask you to do something, you know, unless you have actually had a conversation about that request before. Better yet, I encourage every organization to have a basic policy that says no one in the organization is going to ask anyone else to authorize a financial transaction or a password reset or anything sensitive over email alone. That’s just never gonna happen, and it’s never going to be allowed. You always have to actually talk to the person who’s making the request to confirm that they, in fact, made it before anybody acts on anything. Sounds like a sound policy. Okay, Labbate. Let’s let’s bring it back to what we can do to protect our organizations. So after staff training, what what would you say is next? So after staff training and then again, building a sort of culture of vigilance and everyone being it together on everyone having each other’s back, I would say there are some basic technicals. Defense is you can put in place. Um, because the most dominant type of attacks that we’re seeing right now are definitely email based and identity based. That is, they’re trying to convince you that you know, the attacker is someone they’re not, or and most often there, trying to steal your own account credentials and then use them for exactly the same purpose. One of the best things you can do to protect identity online is too not used, just a password alone. Wherever possible, passwords are kind of outdated security mechanism. They were only added back, you know, twenty thirty years ago, when the original researchers who were building Internet realized Oh, really? You know, not everybody should have the ability to read everybody else’s email without a password. That’s how open everything wass until they tacked on the password, kind of as an afterthought to fix the security hole and a force. As the Internet has evolved to do all sorts of incredibly sensitive things. The password as a security mechanism really hasn’t kept up to speed. It’s not good enough for the level of security. We really need of our bank websites and our social services websites and our, you know, electronic health record websites. So there’s a new standard which itself is not perfect. Nothing ever will be, but it’s a whole lot better than just a user name and password. And this technique or technology is called a couple of different things depending on who you talk to. But they all mean the same thing. You can hear the phrase, multifactorial indication or dual factor authentication or two step verification and all of those terms mean you can. You still have a user name and password, but you also need to supply something else whenever you log in to prove that you are who you claim to be, so that someone who managed to steal someone’s password can’t get in with John. That stuff this is this is Well, I think it’s we’re starting to see this. I see it on a lot of options, you know? Do you want to enable? I usually see there’s, like, two factor authentication, and this is where it’s a code will be sent to your to your phone number to your to your cell, and then you have to enter that number into the site that you’re tryingto log into is that yes, we’re talking about. That’s exactly right in the core idea There is. It’s actually just terrifyingly easy to steal someone’s username and password, particularly if you build a Web page. It looked exactly like the Gmail log in Paige, but it’s going very, very difficult for someone to simultaneously steal someone else’s phone. It is possible are, but it’s just so much so non-profits can implement this a CZ. When people come in in the morning latto log onto the system, they have to provide two factor authentication. You can do that. I would say it’s less important to do that on, you know, your PCs, you know, so that when you grow up coming in the morning, you have to go to this process. Certainly, hospitals do do that. Everyone has, you know, their little cars, that they swipe against some sort of scanner and that that council there’s there in a second factor. But most of us, I think, are now using something like Google Sweet or Office three sixty five, which is accessible from anywhere. And that’s where the attacker’s really have a have a party right they can get because you could get into the system from anywhere. The attackers can get in from Russia, Thailand, South Africa, lots of various places where they tend to work out on. And so those kinds of cloud based systems, as convenient as they are, also present a pretty big security risk that literally anyone on Earth put attack. And so those are the platforms where you really want to make sure you have multi factor authentication turned on. And the good news is, in most of these platforms, turning on multifactorial education is free and pretty easy. It’s, you know, there’s a few steps to it, but you basically just go to someone’s account. You say this person should now be required to use this second, you know, step verification or multi factor authentication. You have to have your your team signed up. You know, basically, just put in their phone number that they want to receive those authorisation codes at and then you’re done. That’s it. You know, they’re they’re logging process is going to be a little bit harder in some cases, but the whole it’s pretty painless and it’s so affected by locking these kind of so much worth the extra minute that it takes just to enable this, okay? Let’s say we got We got a couple minutes before another break, so give us No, we have to go to a break. Sorry. My mistake. So hang on there, Jordan. Think. Think of the next thing we’re going to talk about Xero tell us. Can use more money. Do you need a new revenue source? This is your long stream of passive revenue that you get when companies that you refer process credit card transactions through. Tell us watch the video. Send potential companies to watch the video. After you do, you go when you want to see it first. And then if they use, tell us for processing you. Your NON-PROFIT gets fifty percent of the fee for each transaction. This adds up small dollars. Adding up the video is that tony dot m a slash Tony. Tell us time for live listener love. We’ve got to do it. There’s so much of it. I get it. I get three sheets of paper, but do not. Eight and a half by eleven sheets. Uh, Northvale, New Jersey. The live love to Northvale, New Jersey. Wow, Northvale. Hello. That’s like that’s two minutes from where I grew up in uh, old Japan. Ah, New Bern, North Carolina. Live Love to you, Carmel, California Paddocks. Kala Patasse, Piela, Ohio Pascal or Patasse Piela Live Love goes out. However you pronounce it even if you pronounce it differently than either of those two ways. Live loves going to Ohio. Jacksonville Beach, Florida Atalanta. Oh, California Tampa, Florida All right, Awesome. Lots of live listener love today. And let’s go abroad. Uh, why wouldn’t we? No reason not to, um Tokyo and Cicada. Oh, Japan. Wonderful. Konnichi wa Hanoi, Vietnam. Ah, Social Korea, on your own. Haserot comes a ham Nida for our Korean listener. Beijing, Beijing, China. Of course we know d how everybody knows that Mexico City, Mexico I was always said, guten tag. No, that’s not right. Mexico City. Mexico would be good afternoon. What a star days when a star dies. Of course. Iran. That’s not guten tag either. But Iran is listening. Laos and Egypt. Well, look. Ah, Middle East. Checking in love it Lots of live love going out to all those people. And they maybe others that we can’t see. Sometimes there’s masked cities, et cetera. Um and ah, the podcast pleasantries. The podcast pleasantries have to go out to our over thirteen thousand podcast listeners right on the heels of the live list. Their love comes my gratitude to our the bulk of our audience, which is sitting podcast in the time shift. Whatever time device, however, you squeeze non-profit radio into your life, whether it’s Sunday nights or Saturday mornings. Pleasantries to you. Very glad that you’re with us. Thank you. Okay, we’ve got several more minutes left for we got lots of time left. Oh, yeah. We got latto two time left for Jordan McCarthy and stay secure in twenty nineteen. What’s next? Jordan? What? What should we attack after we take on too factor with simple enabling of two factor authentication? I don’t want to sound like I don’t make it sound is difficult. Once we once we checked out off, where should we go next? It is really not not hard at all again, just so valuable. So we talked about fishing. We talked about email based attacks on identity based attacks. Again, I would say they are the most frequent, Andi increasingly sophisticated type of attack we’re seeing so that definitely your number one priority, I would say. But then there’s a whole other universe of things that also are happening at the same time. So let’s talk about malware and others have more software based attack. So in addition to the attackers, just constantly, you know, trolling around, trying to find people who they can trick into divulging their passwords. There also constantly scanning every system connected to the Internet to see if those systems are susceptible to various kinds of software attack that can sort of worm their way onto PCs, possibly even then spread to other PCs on the network. Um, and again, all these attacks, very opportunistic, automated. It’s very rare that you’ll see someone actively targeting you because they care about you. They just want a, you know, hit the low hanging fruit. Um, but that means they’re going to put up a malicious file that looks like, I don’t know, maybe a pdf of, you know, um, various discount code for something that that’s that’s a common technique. Or or even better yet, a free version of Adobe Photo Job. Right, look, one one deal. What, one day deal, you know, download adobe photo job for nothing here, right? Of course, that’s ridiculous. That would never happen. And if you click on that link and download the software, you may get some variant of Adobe. But you’re also going to get a boat load of malicious software along with it. And once that software is on your machine, that could do anything it wants. Pretty much, you know, they can watch every keystroke that entered into the BC. It can even take video and audio recordings. It can hijack the computing a network power of the PC and use it to attack other targets. Um, until malware is Avery Big deal. And it’s producing a pretty big deal because the most rallies not even that recent anymore, but one of the more modern variants or evolutions of malware. Let’s say it’s called crypto ransomware, which is a mouthful. But what that basically means is this malware is very sophisticated and what it does. Once it gets onto a machine, it takes a look around. It finds every file. It looks like it might contain something useful to you. So every word document, every picture, every email, takes all of that data and steals it, put it into an encrypted archive, delete the original copies from your computer entirely, and then puts up a message on the screen saying, We have your files. If you ever want to see them again, you have to pay us about a thousand dollars. That was last year. The British medical system, right? And the entire city of Atlanta. All right, let’s get to what we can do. The help mitigate the likelihood minimized. I know we can’t prevent. What can we do to minimize the likelihood of this? So when you were talking about malware again, the number one thing going back even earlier discussion is, too promote that culture of vigilance and thoughtfulness. But technical safeguards there your most powerful defense of your software systems and your system security is to keep your systems up to date and that that sounds deceptively simple for anyone who’s actually tried to do it. You know, it’s next to impossible because everyone is very busy and no one wants to take the time to reboot their computer ten times a day to keep everything up to date. So it’s a challenge. But there are various tools that can help you do that shit. Um, e-giving mind when I say keeping up to date? I’m talking about not only your computer’s operating system so Windows or the Mac OS. I’m also talking about your phone operating system, whether it be Android or IOS. I’m also talking about various programs on your PCs, especially Web browsers on other boardmember that connect to the Internet quite a bit from all of that needs to be kept up to date because any one of those pieces could theoretically, if they get out of date, be broken into by one of these automated attack phones. Khun B phones could be turned. Phones could be turned around into microphones against you, right? Exactly. And you know, phones or general purpose computers, too. So if the phone gets compromised, theoretically, you could end up You know, using that phone is a launching point onto other devices are connected to it. OK, what are we going to do? What? You scared us enough. You scared me. And it was very good, too. Sorry. Didn’t get a little bit late for Halloween anyway, so there’s a few tools that can help you. There are tools that very simply watch all of the program’s installed on your PC and alert you. If any of them get out of date, some of them will automatically install patches for those tools for you on. Most of them are free. You know, if you just do a quick online search for, you know, keep my PC updated, that kind of thing. You’ll get some good options whenever you download anything online. As part of this, you know, theme of vigilance. You wantto look for reviews, make sure other people have used that tool and like it. But there are a lot of tools out there to do this work. That’s very ad hoc, right? Each piece he would have to have that installed, and, you know, someone could uninstall it. It would be kind of messy for organizations that are I would say above, let’s say ten people inside. It probably makes sense to aim for some degree of centralization. Uh, you can monitor and enforce the prompt application of software updates for both the operating system and other applications on there’s a variety of tool kits that can do this that there’s a too big name, um, types of rockets that are useful in this case. One of them is called a mobile device. Management took it. And again, if you do a quick Web search for mobile device management, you’ll find a bunch of different options. Um, some of the big players in the space there include things like Microsoft in Tune, Cisco Air Watch, um, IBM mas three sixty and there are a bunch of others. But those are just some that come to mind, and those are really, really good at managing the security of mobile. As their name suggests mobile devices. So many of them focusedbuyer merrily on the the mobile phone space. But many of them can also handle desktops and laptops as well for desktops and laptops. Then there’s another tool kit or a type of tool kit that really focuses in on that space and those air remote management and monitoring toolkit abbreviated are. Mm. On the first one was abbreviated mdm tonight. We love acronyms. I’m not really sure why, but but thankfully, you kept yourself out of jargon jail by actually using the full name before you even said that with him. So yeah, I get that way. That’s why we have debts when non-profit idea has jargon jail. Oh, thank you. I What? All right, finish your sentence, and then we gotta take our last break. Okay? So remote management and Mandarin monument and management and monitoring tools do exactly what I proposed. It needs to be done. They help you watch species for anything that might need to be updated and get those that they supplied promptly. They can also do more than that. They can watch and monitor and a virus programs which are not actually as useful as you might think. So that’s why I didn’t put them first on my list. Keeping yourself repeated is actually more important than having antivirus programs in place generally. But it is a good last line of defense. And these talk is gonna help make sure that those you’ll stay in place and are updated as well. All right. Jordan and Jordan, Wait. Take your last break. When we come back from this break, I want you to list list again. The resource is that you named so that people can have a place to ah t check out and you know, the ones that you believe are our sound. Do you think hoexter give can use more money again? I need a new revenue source. Here’s another way. Mobile e-giving. You could learn about it with text to gives five part email. Many course. Now, this is an E mail that is bona fide. So you don’t have to worry about is being a phishing e mail. You know, you’re just five e mails away through this many course. One each day from raising more money are raising money to get started through mobile giving. It’s cheap to get started. Its easy for your donors. The way to start the many course. You text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine nine. All right. And we still got several more minutes. Force they secure in twenty. Nineteen with Jordan McCarthy. Alright, Jordan, what’s your What’s your list of resource is that users can trust. So first of all users listening listeners, listeners, contrast. Who’s you? Well, they are users, too, but listeners is what we’re talking about here. You want to look at whatever vendors you use and you want to see. You wanna have a look at what they say about their own security? So, you know, look at go to the web page of, you know, blackbaud sales force, Microsoft, Google and, you know, just say all right. Tell me about your security. What do you do? What do you offer? What can you help me to nail down? Okay, because many of these platforms will have a lot of security features built in that you may not be taking advantage of. So start simple. Start free. You use a totally ordinary included but may not know about you already included. Ok, then you want to start looking for other resource is to tell you you know, about what else you, Khun Dio? What else? What what? What are the sort of tools of record that really are effective and secure and we’ll increase your security So I mean not to be too self promoting, but idealware is a phenomenal resource for this kind of thing. That haserot hutchisson tons of resources and listeners know that idealware idealware knows dimension of, you know, I, including security brought up Yes. Objective, objective, objective. Other indexes as well. So if you look at sites like PC World, um, com p world ars technica Wired, they usually do reviews of various security tools I go to them routinely to see. All right, what is the latest on the mobile device management tool kit? There really top notch? What antivirus programs are recommended this year because they always cycle in and out. Okay, no. In terms of the tools that I use quite a bit and trust, I would call out for things like authentication. Obviously, Office three sixty five and the Google Sweet are phenomenal talk it They can both do a lot for you in terms of keeping things safe and helping you to monitor the security of your communications and your files and everything. So either this platform’s, I think are exemplary. And both have built in multi factor authentication. You just need to turn it on. Um, if you’re looking for something that can be, go beyond those core platforms and spanning multiple product, you might want to look at. Ah, couple of tool kits that focused squarely on authentication, safeguarding identity. Those tools are duo. Do you and octa O K E A. And these They’re both really big names in the space of again. Just making sure that people’s identities were kept saying that they cannot get attacked by simply divulging their passwords. Both of them provide multifaceted indication toe a wide range of other tools so you could end up just logging in with your duo or octa credentials and then be granted access to a bunch of other things. But but in a very secure way. Okay, excellent. We just have about a minute left. Jordan. So I feel like we did enough on why you should be paying attention to this. Let’s not. Let’s not wrap up with that. But I’ll leave it to you. How do you want to close? You got a minute? I think I would say that. You know, things are pretty scary right now, and I don’t want to sugarcoat that way. As you say. We said enough about it, but there is a lot that any given non-profit Khun do it doesn’t It’s not rocket science. You know, you might be told that you need to pay a butt load of money or hyre, you know, a really fancy consultant to tell you what to do. Ah, and if you find it helpful, sure, by all means, go and get some help. And you know, if you want a lightweight approach or even something more in depth, tech impact is here to help where we’re more than happy to meet you at whatever level the support you need. But having said that, a lot of this stuff is really not that difficult. It can be done by someone who just has the time. I mean, that’s sort of our all of our scarcest resource. I know. So that’s easier said than done. But if you have the time and you know, you can set aside some resources to dig in and turn on mold a factor authentication and figure out how to keep yourself up to date, you were going to be so much safer as a result. And for most non-profits, that’s exactly what they need to do as long as they are safer. Than the average. They are totally not interesting. Okay, hackers we got Okay, We got to leave it there. Don’t be interesting. Two attackers. Ah, he’s Jordan McCarthy. Infrastructure and security of the tech impact. You’ll find them at tech impact dot or GE, which is where you’ll find there the resource paper with even more ideas. And they are at tech. Underscore impact. Thank you so much, Jordan. It’s really a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks. My inside a video with Jordan. We’re going to talk about single sign on next week. The annual zombie loyalists replay with Peter Shankman. His customer service ideas are excellent, so it’s very worth Well, he worth replaying it. Do it every year. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant Capital P. Well, you see, piela is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy Text n p. R. To four four four nine nine nine. A creative producer was Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and his music is by Scott Stein. You with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent Go out and be great. What duitz? You’re listening to the talking alternative network you get to thinking. Things xero. You’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. 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