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Nonprofit Radio for January 17, 2022: Legal Outlook For 2022

Gene Takagi: Legal Outlook For 2022

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns for a mix of checklist items and emerging trends. It’s a good time to look big picture at your HR investments, corporate docs and financials. Also, what to look out for in crowdfunding, donor disclosure, data protection, and more. Gene is principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO) and our legal contributor.

 

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[00:02:10.34] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of proto psychosis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show Legal Outlook for 2022, Gene Takagi returns for a mix of checklist items and emerging trends. It’s a good time to look at big picture items like your HR investments, corporate docs and financials also though what to look out for in crowdfunding donor disclosure, data protection and more, jean is principal of the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group Neo and our legal contributor On Tony’s take two 50% off planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s always my pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi to the show. You know who he is. It’s almost it’s almost superfluous for me for me to do the intro. But but jeanne deserves it. He’s well credentialed and I want to make sure that he gets his due introduction. Gene Takagi are legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco. He edits that wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com, which you should be following and he is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and he’s at jeanne, Welcome back.

[00:02:11.94] spk_1:
Great to be back. tony how are you?

[00:02:13.98] spk_0:
It’s always a pleasure. Thank you. I’m well happy New Year.

[00:02:17.99] spk_1:
Happy New Year.

[00:03:05.74] spk_0:
Thank you. And let’s, so let’s let’s talk about the new year. Um and just before we do I want to remind folks that not too long ago we have genes one, our legal audit which you might want to look back at. That was a sort of a condensed version of some of what we’re gonna talk about today. Although we have lots of new subjects to talk about today too. But there was the one our legal audit and also with jean recently Risk management Part one and then a different show. Risk Management Part two. So those are resources that you can look back at just from a couple of months ago and we’ll go into and and those go into more detail on some of what we’re gonna talk about today jean. Uh where would you like to start for the new year, throw it open, throw it, I throw it open to you. What would you like to start with?

[00:03:58.64] spk_1:
So it does seem like kind of this chance that restarting, getting reenergized and thinking about our organizations and where we wanted to go. Um Yes, we have to keep in mind some of those um risks that we talked about in previous shows but we also have to think about kind of where we want to go. What of our, what our dreams are um what our vision is for the organization? Had we properly captured it? Um, what is our mission? Is that sort of properly captured? Is everything because our environment seems to be changing week by week. It seems to be new stuff that comes up that we have to consider. Are we still on track with where we want to go? So having these sort of broader discussions. I like sending those organizational priorities for the new year.

[00:04:06.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um, what would you, what what priority would you like to start with?

[00:06:07.94] spk_1:
Sure. So, um, being the lawyer, I say, okay, let’s talk about legal compliance just to make sure we’ve got some systems in place, mission and values, which we’ve frequently emphasized them when we’ve had discussions about not just existing to further your mission, but to do it in a way that advances your values and if equity and inclusion of part of those values, then, you know, that’s something you should be thinking about as well, definitely considering some of the trends that are out there. And I know we’ll get into that a little bit later in the show, but also including kind of the times that we’re we live in and acknowledging that yes, we’re under the impact of Covid, which seems to be shifting constantly in both how it’s affecting us and how we might need to respond to it. The great resignation, which certainly isn’t completely unrelated to the Covid, but that is a huge trend and movement as we’re trying to figure out how do we keep our workers, are we burning them out? The mental health issues that are, you know, hitting pretty much all of us, um, from the isolation, remote, working from the uncertainties of health, from sick family members and loved ones and all of that and saying, well, are we going to be able to keep our team together? Should we be keeping our team together the way we’re working now? Do we need to shift our work practices? Do we need to shift what type of benefits for giving to them? All of those things have got to be sort of raised? And I would say raise at the board level, you know, together with the executives and senior management team. Let’s talk about it. Let’s brainstorm think about this and get what our organizational priorities are this year, because things can change rapidly and rapid change if you don’t have any plans um, to anticipate some of them don’t have contingency plans can force you into very, very stressful times where immediate actions are necessary and you can sometimes make bad decisions if you’re under that type of time stress. So

[00:06:18.63] spk_0:
then it because then it becomes a crisis

[00:06:20.30] spk_1:
right? Exactly.

[00:06:48.64] spk_0:
And and a crisis in staffing, especially knowing how hard it is to hire folks now, you know, you talked about, you know, keeping the team together or should we keep should we keep the team together? But, you know, I’m sure you’re seeing it with your clients. The difficulty in hiring, you know, you want to, that, that, that’s a, that’s a huge factor in, you know, do we have the right team? Well, putting the right team together, it’s gonna take a lot longer than it used to?

[00:08:01.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. And if you’re talking about retention, you got to figure out what are you going to invest in this? I know you want to, you know, provide as much as you can to your beneficiaries. But if you’re not really considering the team of people in, you know, on your team that are providing those services that are supporting those services, the whole thing can collapse. So just remember where your infrastructure and when your groundwork is and how important the human resources are in your organization to being able to deliver services and provide goods for your charitable missions. So really important not to neglect that. And that requires an investment both on retention and if you aren’t able to retain everybody and you need to recruit, you’re gonna have to be able to show what you’re going to invest in those new employees and give them time to learn. You can’t expect them to perform like experience people have, um, in the past. So it’s, you know, some patients, um, and definitely investment in education and training and orientation, um, and all the rest and again, um, to the extent that your executive is probably also overwhelmed with everything else going on. The board is really pivotal in trying to be able to come up with plans that help invest in their teams.

[00:08:10.44] spk_0:
This goes to legal audit the conversation we had a few months ago. You’d like to see a review of governing documents to.

[00:09:31.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I I always think that that’s a great thing to check out in the new year. Just even if you have somebody, you know, a higher up kind of a board member or where your executive or senior manager take a look At your articles and bylaws, even spending 30 minutes on it and saying is our mission really reflected in these documents or have we evolved into something else? And these documents are like stale and old and outdated now in that case those documents still rule. So if you have the I. R. S. Or a state regulator coming in audit you, if you’re not performing within that mission statement in your articles and bylaws, you could be acting completely out of compliance and worst case scenario, you can really threaten the organization through penalties, etcetera. So that’s something to take a look at. Also just take a look at a lot of organizations. I find out their their boards, they’re like, oh, you know, we forgot to elect them. You know, we, we, you know, we’ve had terms, you know of two years but they’ve been on for like 10 years and we’re happy with them. So we just don’t do elections that can be really, really harmful as well for multiple reasons. But you know, sit back, see what you’re doing and what you’re not doing consistent with your articles and bylaws. And if you need to change things determine that you have to change. And if you need the help of a lawyer, try to find somebody that can help you with that. And there are some good resources on the web as well.

[00:09:48.64] spk_0:
What’s, what’s one of the good resources?

[00:10:15.04] spk_1:
A little bit of a self plug because I’m a board member, but board source has excellent resources on board of directors, governance things of that nature. Stanford University also has excellent resources in terms of sort of template documents that are just a guide for nonprofits. It’s not one size fits all, but it just gives you a general idea about how some things operate. Um, so those are just too good resources to look at.

[00:10:18.35] spk_0:
And, and again, we, we talked about this extensively in the show called your one

[00:10:24.34] spk_1:
hour legal audit.

[00:10:30.14] spk_0:
You have some last one. You have some financial performance advice for the new year.

[00:13:04.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Well I think probably, um, most people take a look at their financials throughout the year on the board level and on the executive level. Um, but the new year, you’ve actually sort of completed your financials and they might not be, um, in final form yet, but you might have what some people call it pro form, a set of financials, um, sort of close to final, where you get to assess what you’ve done in the year, you know, for, for most organizations, this goes without saying, but you want to make sure that you’re performing in a way that you’re not becoming insolvent. So you want to make sure what your balance sheet looks like and whether you have net assets, um, if you don’t have net assets, that means that you are either insolvent or, you know, in the zone of insolvency, you have to think about how you’re going to address that very serious issue. And I would say you don’t have internal expertise on dealing with it, get outside help right away if that’s the case. But your, your statement of revenues and expenses as well, are you sort of operating what people call in the black so that there is, you know, some net income in there or are you operating in the red where you’re very concerned because you’re losing money, timing is always important. So it’s misleading to look at one year in isolation because sometimes grants are given in one year, but they’re actually uh received in another year. So the timing issue can pose different challenges about reading financials. So you want to be able to read it sort of collectively through a multi year period just to know where you stand. And again, if board members aren’t able to help an executive and the executive feels like they need some help with understanding financials, to reading financials invest in everybody’s training in this area and there are a lot of people, even pro bono, that, that are offering this training pro bono and a lot of resources on the web. So make sure you understand your financials and what they’re indicating. You don’t need to know every single financial ratio that you know, business people use, but just generally no. Are you healthy financially or are you trending bad? And if you have several years where you’re in the red, where you, where you’re not making money, it looks like you’re bleeding money, then that might be indicative of some change that’s necessary in order to make your organization sustainable on an ongoing basis. So again, you don’t want to hit crisis mode financially. So this is a good chance, take a look at your financials, not just last year, but over a multiyear period and see where you are, get help if you need it.

[00:15:08.54] spk_0:
We have a show that I replayed, oh, I think within the past six months, uh, the guest was Andy Robinson. So you could go to tony-martignetti dot com and just search his name Andy Robinson, but it was something like teaching your board basic financials and he wrote a book, I’m pretty sure it was published by charity channel, uh, with, with a title similar to that. So if you, and the show is a few years old, but reading financial statements and and balance sheets hasn’t changed much in probably 100 years. Um, so it’s just all in and out now now, it’s all in Excel. But uh, so if you’d like some help with that, there is a, there is a show where Andy Robinson was the guest talking about, you’re improving your boards, financial literacy. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, your 2022 communications plan. Does it have lots of projects? Lots of writing projects? You can get the biggest projects off your plate and outsource them. Free up staff time to devote to the work that it’s not feasible to have others doing for you. Like the annual report, just because it’s been done in house in the past, doesn’t mean it has to be done in house this year. What about research reports, White papers, your other heavy lift pieces. Do you need help with writing projects in 2022, Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to legal outlook for 2022 with Gene Takagi. Okay, so let’s talk about some trends then, jean, you have a, you have a case we haven’t talked about, we haven’t talked about an actual case for a while. Americans for prosperity.

[00:19:16.54] spk_1:
Yeah. So um that was a huge U. S. Supreme Court case at least huge for the nonprofit sector. Um, but with deeper implications for if I if I’m not over hyping it for democracy itself. So um so americans for prosperity, Foundation versus Banta, who was the California Attorney general basically it was about the schedule be disclosure of donors who donated more than $5000. So for nonprofits who know how to prepare their form 19 nineties, you’ll know that on schedule B of your form 1990. Eur actually disclosing to the I. R. S. It’s not public information. Um But it’s to the I. R. S. The name and address of your donors who donated more than $5000. Now that hasn’t changed, you still have to disclose it to the I. R. S. But certain states, including California where volunteers from as the attorney general um New york I believe New Jersey I believe Hawaii also included Um all asked for a copy of the 990 including an unredacted schedule B to be given to the state regulator because they also want to look at that information for state law compliance purposes. A lot of them are concerned about donors who give money but get something back in return that’s not being disclosed. So if they ever have to have an investigation of that, that information turns out to be very helpful to the state to be able to say ah they were giving money but they also took in this huge benefit, this huge contract for example, which you know, reap them millions of dollars. Um So there was a legal case um that went up through the courts um finally hit the U. S. Supreme Court and the A. G. Lost here, The California G. Um So the court decided and we know the court’s composition is fairly conservative right now. The court decided that uh the states don’t have this right. Um It was based on the fact finding of the lower courts which is a little bit unfortunate because if the higher court could have considered more facts, then it might have been decided a different way but based on kind of how how our legal system works and and and how the Supreme Court works and the composition of the Supreme Court. They held that, hey this is not disclosed able to the states essentially that’s the impact of it. The broader impact on why I said democracy might be uh issue here is because well what about sort of campaign finance disclosures? And what about the I. R. S. Should they be entitled to that information as well? So it’s really helpful in compliance. But the counter argument and why some organizations charities, we’re also um not in favor of the disclosures is because of the protection of the donor. And the old case cited um in this part of the argument was an N double A cp case that said, well, if we disclose our donors, the KKK had threatened to kill all of them. Um And you can see why privacy was important in that issue and this issue, it was nothing like this. I think it’s a Koch brothers, um, kind of funded charity. They wanted really to keep their identity, um, more hidden because they have desires to influence politics in many ways. And if it always gets associated with them, then the impact lessons. So if they can look like they’re ground swells of movements that are funding these things rather than individual donors, um, it looks better for for what they’re trying to do. So that’s, you know, that’s what’s at stake here is not only are the state’s not allowed to get this information that would really help them in state law enforcement of whether there’s diversion of charitable assets that benefit

[00:19:29.74] spk_0:
donors. But

[00:19:30.15] spk_1:
in the broader sense, are we going to allow more dark money to enter into our political systems without knowing that there are donors, heavy donors that back these, you know, politicians or political parties or political movements. So that’s the scary part about this decision.

[00:19:57.94] spk_0:
What’s the, I think infamous Supreme Court case that that allowed the allowed the dark money into, uh, into politics. United

[00:20:02.73] spk_1:
Citizens. United

[00:20:27.54] spk_0:
United. Yeah. Um, All right. All right. And so I just want to repeat this. So this case that Gene was just talking about is americans for prosperity Foundation V. Banta B. O. N. T. A. What about crowdfunding you, you point out that there’s a new crowdfunding law. Hope is this a little more optimistic? I hope?

[00:21:22.54] spk_1:
Uh, well, depending upon how you look at it. And I think in one sense it’s inevitable. Um, a lot of our laws that are developed regarding fundraising, um, don’t even, and never anticipated the internet, right, johnny. So, uh, you know, now crowdfunding platform is, you know, not just the internet, the use of the internet, but it’s a lot of different for profit companies getting involved, um, to enable charities and organizations and people who are not charities to raise funds that look like they could be for charitable purposes, Right? So you want to help victims of a fire, but you want to help them directly, because some individuals said, I want to start a Go fund Me campaign, right? And say, well, you know, chip in 50 bucks and let’s try to get these people some help doesn’t, that doesn’t go through a charity. Often it just goes to this person, right, who promises to give these other people money

[00:21:35.90] spk_0:
and go funding the person’s goodwill. Honestly, yeah,

[00:21:58.14] spk_1:
Go fund Me is, you know, reacted to this and they’re probably the biggest crowdfunding platforms. So they’ve reacted to this in terms of having their own internal policies to help prevent a check. But overall, there’s, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of crowdfunding platforms out there that do this to make a profit. Um, and they may not have those types of controls or checks to not to just, you know, prevent somebody from saying, let’s raise money to help fire victims and then just keeping it. Um, so,

[00:22:11.97] spk_0:
what, what, what is the import of the law for, for us?

[00:23:21.34] spk_1:
So I think the import of the law is, if you’re going to get on and decide, hey, we want to do crowdfunding, um, you’ve got to select your platform provider carefully and this law, which is in California, but is likely to spread across different states in various forms, says, well now, if you’re gonna do that, you’ve got to make sure that this crowdfunding platform is registered. Um, and they’re reporting and there are all sorts of rules involved. So if you have a contract with them, it should be subject to these rules that might say things like, well, if they collect money, they have to give the money to the charity within a certain time period. Right? So they couldn’t say, well, it takes this administration, so maybe a couple of years before you get that, you know, nobody’s gonna be happy with that, but without rules, why not? Um, so these are, this is why it’s important for charities to have rules. The actual details of the rules. So I can see why some people have some, some issue with them. And we haven’t had all of the regulations yet, they’re still in discussion. So this is very, Still very trending, but the crowdfunding law, the law, the general law that’s in place now will become effective in California in 2023, and the regulations are being developed right now,

[00:23:58.04] spk_0:
let’s turn to remote work, which is obviously so much more common now. Hybrid work, you know, return to work dates are being pushed off and off. Um What what are what are what are what trends are you seeing? What should be on, will you be on the lookout for with respect to uh remote work and employment law issues?

[00:25:10.84] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s, you know, this is a really tricky area. Um you know, for sure, Covid where people were suddenly not permitted to to go indoors in some cases for months. Um and who knows if, you know, we’re going to return to some of those scenarios with the omicron variant out there, We’re hoping that it’s less um severe in terms of its impact, even if it might be a more transmissible, but if we if we keep worrying about this and saying, you know, our workers aren’t comfortable coming to work, even if the law allows them to come to work. Um Maybe we’re going to let people work remotely, and many of us have gone full remote, some of us have gone back to partial returns, some have gone back to full returns and then gone back, you know out the other way and said, okay, you know, it’s at the workers discretion whether they want to come in or not. So what makes us a little bit tricky. Um is that you don’t control the work environment as the employer, if they’re working at home, right? Um but that becomes the work environment, if they’re doing work from home, that’s their work environment, and, you know, the employer is responsible for the work environment if they should get hurt, for example,

[00:25:22.94] spk_0:
um

[00:26:56.24] spk_1:
So it becomes a little bit tricky about, well, how do you, how do you handle that for workers comp reasons, for safety reasons, for OSHA reasons? Um and I think there’s an understanding by regulators that, you know, this is out of control of most small businesses, small charities and, you know, to to that extent, we’re not really gonna look to enforce things on that level, but there are other things that, that are also concerning, because not everybody goes when, when they decide to work remote, we work in the same city or in the same state, right. A lot of us um have decided to, you know, maybe move back with family, which might be in another state. In some cases it could be another country, or some of us have decided to travel and spend a little bit of time, you know, in different places. Um So how does allow treat that? And basically, you know, the old rules, which are the rules, many of us are stuck with. Um the old rules are, well, you have to comply with the laws where the worker is doing the work, so if you have a worker in new york who’s now working remotely and came out to florida, well, then all the employment rules regarding worker safety and wage and hour laws and salary, overtime, sick pay benefits, all the florida laws apply to that worker now. Um, and so now it’s like, well, you’ve got to work in florida, you’ve got to think about, are you qualified to do business in

[00:27:00.21] spk_0:
florida,

[00:27:36.94] spk_1:
charity registration in florida? Um, and you may have had no connection to florida before, but all of a sudden you have a worker working there. Um, so a few states, um, and they’re not very many, but a few states that said, well, you know, during covid, we’ve got these temporary rules where we’re relaxed, where you don’t have to do that. And there’s also state tax issues, right? State payroll taxes, and, and other times, all of those things, some states said, you don’t have to worry about it. A lot of organizations are simply not complying with, But,

[00:27:37.49] spk_0:
but you said it’s only a handful of states that said, we’re we’re we’re not enforcing

[00:27:42.14] spk_1:
right. Exactly.

[00:27:43.33] spk_0:
The majority of

[00:29:01.34] spk_1:
states are, Yeah, well, I shouldn’t say they’re enforcing, but they haven’t the old laws or the existing laws still apply. There are no transition laws, so you’re out of compliance. And if they do enforce, which might not be like a, you know, a regulator coming out to you and saying you haven’t done this, it may be your employee is unhappy with something you’ve done, who’s working there and said, hey florida law applies and you haven’t been complying with the florida sort of benefits laws that, that apply. And maybe I could give you more specific example because san Francisco, if you came out to California, your remote employee came out to California, san Francisco has mandatory six hours and not a lot, a lot of states don’t have sick our pay. Um, but all of a sudden if you’re not paying them and they get wind of that, hey, you were supposed to pay me for this and you haven’t been, it’s the employee who could launch the complaint. Um, so it’s just to be careful of these things and, and just as your strategy for charity registration, tony when you’re sort of fundraising all over the country to, to, you’re not going to be able to maybe do all 50 states at once, but just to make sure you’ve got a plan to attack this kind of the same thing here. Um, check out where your employees are, you should know exactly where they are and check each state in terms of how strictly, maybe in terms of enforcing this and start to slowly comply

[00:30:12.74] spk_0:
the implications of state law. Yeah. What about the technology remote work? I don’t know if that’s all been figured out yet and maybe there were, maybe there were stopgap measures during the, during the, the darkest part of the pandemic, but but going forward, you know, tech technology has to be, has to be upgraded. You know, are we gonna, we’re gonna continue providing work phones? Are we going to provide work laptops? What about paying for internet access over the long term? I mean, you know, the internet access can be costly. And if if work is taking up a lot of the bandwidth, isn’t it appropriate for an employer to be paying a portion? And then how do then how does the, how does the, what’s the mechanism for the employee verifying how much they pay and you know, and then what percentage are we gonna cover of that, all the all the technology issues around, around remote work.

[00:30:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, def definitely. And and as an as an employer, I would say, beyond sort of any legal compliance issues, um, you’ve got a, I think an ethical issue to make sure you’re providing your employees with the tools to do their job. And if you’re allowing remote work, you should make sure that they have the tools. So if they need a computer to be able to access it, so they’re not, they’re not using their personal computer. Um then you should make sure that happens same thing with the telephone. And if, you know, if those are going to be dedicated to work, um it should be explicitly written out that way. But if you force them to use their personal things, there are some states that actually do have laws that say you must reimburse your your employees if they’re using the tools that they need um for for remote work, but just ethically. Yeah.

[00:31:18.74] spk_0:
But then that’s then that raises security issues too. Absolutely. They have any kind of HIPPA protected information on their personal laptop. That’s gonna be a big problem. That that’s I think that’s probably a mistake if you’re dealing with that kind of data. But um

[00:32:01.74] spk_1:
and don’t we probably all have that type of stuff on our personal computers, right? You know, sort of HIPPA protected? We may have had emails like that are saved onto our computers. Um Right. So if if the computer is also being used for work and there’s a work issue that causes that data to be taken or corrupted, like, you know, what’s the employer’s responsibility if they hadn’t provided an alternative, it’s a great point

[00:32:50.94] spk_0:
and and it’s not only hip hop data, but other other personalized data that that maybe on now the personals, the employee’s personal computer, desktop or laptop or phone, you know, how is that? How is that private private data protected? Do they have malware prevention on their on their personal devices so that so that company emails that they’re that they’re using on their personal device aren’t potentially compromised. I mean, the use of the personal equipment raises a lot of technology and and Legal privacy and ethical issues to your right. I mean, if the person is eight or 10 hours a day, they’re using their personal laptop, shouldn’t there be some compensation for that?

[00:34:46.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think minimally because no matter you know how much we encourage people to have sort of work dedicated computers provided by the workplace, people are going to use their personal phones. I mean we can go back to the politicians who have all been using their personal funds. So we know it happens regardless of what the best practices. But what can the employer do, they can pay for all of that data protection stuff that that computer should have. Right, tony because now it has much more sensitive information on there and the employer is partly responsible for some of the other information that could be on there and hack. So yeah, employers should help. And that kind of leads us to the whole data security issue as well that everybody’s got to be paying attention to now is really um nonprofits have important data in their system. Some of it is, you know, hipaa protected some of it is other privacy information. You may have employment reviews on there that you don’t want going out into the real world or client, you know, feedback which might be positive. Some of it might be negative sensitive communications, all sorts of stuff that you might find on a work computer and if it gets hacked and if that data gets stolen or if somebody holds the system which might run your programs or aspects of your programs if they cause your system to crash and say that they will only sort of fix it because they’ve hacked and caused the crash. If you pay a ransom, you’ve got all sorts of problems. Uh and maybe some of that may have been mitigated with some basic steps like you mean you’re not going to be, well even the U. S. Government can’t prevent all hackers. I think we we know that, but you can take reasonable steps based on your budget, whatever that might be to to control some of this. So it really is important to have some safeguards.

[00:34:55.74] spk_0:
Another potential category of data is the G. D. P. R. Data. If if if your nonprofit is implicated at all in in that european common law law then or the yeah then then you’ve got those concerns as well.

[00:35:08.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. So if you have european donors or you’re doing business with any european entities and you have data from those entities or persons be careful and again, remote working can trigger some of that. So if if they decided to, you know their home or or they want to travel to europe and do their work from there.

[00:35:28.74] spk_0:
Um,

[00:35:29.74] spk_1:
all sorts of implications.

[00:37:44.03] spk_0:
Yeah. Absolutely right. People very good point where where people are sitting and where they’re planted when they’re working, It’s time for Tony Take two We’ve got 50% off the tuition for planned giving accelerator. That’s because just last week A donor stepped up someone who believes very deeply in planned giving accelerator and he is offering to pay 50% of the tuition For the 1st 10 nonprofits that take him up on his offer. A couple have already done it as of the time I’m recording, but there are several spots left. So if you’ve been toying with the idea of planned giving accelerator, it’s never going to be cheaper than 50% off. What the way this will work is. You’ll pay the tuition in full, which is $1195 for the six month course. This donor will then make a gift to you of half of that. So you’ll have a new donor, he’ll pay half your tuition. So it ends up being 50% off the full tuition cost. I know the donor, it’s someone I trust you have my word. Your final cost will be half of the full tuition if you’d like to jump on this and be one of the members of what is now our february class. I want to give people enough time for this because it, it just came in last week. So I’m extending, we’re, we’re not gonna start the class until february if you’d like to be part of that february class At 50% off email and we’ll, we’ll talk about planned giving accelerator and whether it can help you launch your planned giving program. Mhm. tony at tony-martignetti dot com. That’s me. That is Tony’s take two, We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for legal outlook for 2022

[00:38:01.22] spk_1:
one and one of the tools to think about and I’m a little bit guilty of this as well um is be careful of public wifi um because that often is an entryway for a

[00:38:03.83] spk_0:
hacker. Yeah, that’s totally unsecured airports, airplanes,

[00:38:09.89] spk_1:
coffee shops,

[00:38:13.42] spk_0:
coffee shops, Starbucks, wherever those are, all unsecured networks.

[00:38:29.32] spk_1:
Right? Meaning that there is the potential for somebody in there who has some malicious intent if they want to be able to hack into to your computer through that public wifi. Unsecured wifi. And there are different systems um but maybe one of the simplest for for those of us who have smartphones, which I think is most of us is you could actually create a sort of a private wifi just

[00:38:52.92] spk_0:
for your smartphone, right? Hotspot? Hotspot and don’t use the unsecured wifi to connect to, you know, use the uh the four G or five G or the five GHZ et cetera.

[00:38:56.17] spk_1:
Right? And that’s something an employer could pay to make sure that the employee has significant data and data plan that can incorporate all the additional data that they may need in their plan because of the work. So again, that would be reasonable and and ethical for the nonprofit employer to pay for their employees to have a higher data plan. Um, if they’re going to to use that and insist as a policy that they do not use public wifi. If they’re using a work computer or a computer that contains work and sensitive information,

[00:39:36.52] spk_0:
all you need is to transmit an email on, on an unsecured wifi that that has a donors credit card number, maybe

[00:39:38.77] spk_1:
native

[00:39:58.12] spk_0:
birth address, name any, any two of those things together, uh, hacked could be very detrimental to that donor. And you know, whether it ever gets traced back to you is is uncertain, but you’ve, you’ve put your donors privacy at risk in a simple email that has any two of those pieces of information.

[00:40:04.31] spk_1:
And it appears to be a myth, um, when people have relied on, they’re not going to go after us because we’re nonprofits, people don’t go

[00:40:12.29] spk_0:
after. Oh, that’s bullshit. Oh, that’s ridiculous.

[00:40:14.57] spk_1:
Right?

[00:40:22.61] spk_0:
I’m working with a client now that, that is a, is in new york city that’s, that’s, um, victim of, of a malware, uh, ransomware, so brought me a ransomware attack.

[00:40:27.61] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:40:40.41] spk_0:
And they’re keeping it quiet so I’m not permitted to say who it is. But um, yeah, they’ve, they’ve been, they’ve been hindered for weeks and weeks with data accessibility issues.

[00:40:42.71] spk_1:
Yeah. And it’s much more common than we think because organizations do want to keep it quiet because if there is a vulnerability, they don’t want to come and say other hackers come come and attack us, we’re vulnerable. So it may be much more pervasive than we think

[00:40:57.61] spk_0:
and that myth also breaks down along ideological

[00:41:00.04] spk_1:
lines.

[00:41:21.61] spk_0:
Some some person on the left may may attack an organization on the right. Some person on the right may attack an organization on the left just because of where the organization stands with respect to the person’s political and ideological beliefs that that that’s enough. It doesn’t matter that you’re a nonprofit. It’s it’s your ideology and your mission. It has nothing to do with your tax exempt status as to why somebody would or wouldn’t go after you.

[00:41:28.41] spk_1:
Yeah and um in these times that those ideological differences have been very um pronounced and. Yeah.

[00:41:41.11] spk_0:
Alright where else should we go? Gene with trends, trends for the new year. Come on.

[00:44:24.69] spk_1:
Um Let’s talk a little bit since we’re talking about technology and data security. Let’s talk a little bit about crypto currency because I find that pretty fascinating. Um There was an organization that came together and bid $40 million on a copy of the U. S. Constitution just a few weeks ago. Um That money the $40 million plus more I think about 47 or $48 million was raised for that purpose in less than two weeks. Um So um Cryptocurrency donors um often have made a ton of money because of the appreciation of cryptocurrencies like. Bitcoin for for those who aren’t super familiar with it. Um And if you donate Cryptocurrency, it’s like donating a non cash asset, meaning that if You bought crypto currency for $1,000 10 years ago and it’s worth now several million dollars, which if you bought the red Cryptocurrency, that might be the case if you sold it, uh you would have a lot of taxes to pay on that appreciation right? The several million dollars of appreciated income that would be subject to capital gains tax. Um So if you sold it and donated some of the proceeds, that would not be a very tax efficient way to donate. When if you donated the Cryptocurrency itself, what you do is you get to take a fair market value deduction of the several million dollars. So you gave several million. So potentially you could deduct that is a charitable contribution and pay no capital gains tax because he never sold it. Um So very tax efficient way of giving um And Cryptocurrency people, wealthy millionaires and others who decided that they wanted see some positive impact um from giving these gifts are are making gifts of Cryptocurrency now and that’s that’s partly why I am so many gathered together to say hey we’d like to fund a charity to buy a copy of the U. S. Constitution so that we can ensure that this constitution is always for the public’s benefit and on public viewership and not sitting in somebody’s house, you know for for their own prestige. Um But that really opens it up, cherish. Think about there’s a lot of these people who made quite a bit of money on Cryptocurrency and a lot of younger people are investing barely heavily in Cryptocurrency now. So it’s something to not sort of blow away if we’re um kind of our age or older, tony to say, Cryptocurrency, what is that? It’s it’s something to really embrace now because it’s it’s not just this exotic tool now, it’s part of regular investment portfolios.

[00:45:56.79] spk_0:
Absolutely, it’s it’s it’s coming and and jean this dovetails perfectly with Our November 15 show of 2021 Bitcoin in the future of fundraising with my guests who are an Connolly and Jason shim who wrote a book Bitcoin in the future of fundraising. So, um it’s do you it’s just more, more sage advice that crypto donations are coming. It’s not a matter of if it’s just when are you gonna get on board now or you’re gonna wait two more years and potentially be behind the curve. Um and as an and Jason pointed out today, there are so few organizations accepting crypto that a lot of people are just searching for. Where can I donate? Cryptocurrency and probably largely, Gene for the reasons you’re describing there, They’re looking for a direct crypto donation to help them with substantial capital gains. Are there specific legal implications of crypto donations that that we need to be aware of or or is it just, you know, you just want folks to know that this trend is, it’s in the middle, it’s happening right now.

[00:48:15.97] spk_1:
So I think, you know, one of the reasons why charities are afraid to take Kryptos because they don’t know what laws apply when they receive the crypto. They’re like, what do we do with this? Um, and there are ways to easily cash that out and turn it into us cash. And in fact, most charities that accept crypto and they’re not a lot, you’re right, tony but most carriers that accept them liquidate them immediately turned them into cash and deposited into fiat currency, like regular paper currency, um, in their bank accounts. Um, So they’re not holding onto the crypto very long at all. One of the reasons why that’s, that can be very important is because there are prudent investor rules for charities that don’t apply to for profits that basically say if you’ve got investment assets, charities, this is not just endowments, but just any sort of investment assets for reserves or for a capital fund or anything you can’t invest. It speculatively, you couldn’t just throw it all in like Apple stock, um that would be too speculative. You have to look at it, uh, through what financial professionals, investment professionals called portfolio theory, are you sufficiently um, have an investment portfolio diversified across several different asset classes? So if one bombs, you haven’t tanked all of your money. Um, and the board of directors have a fiduciary duty to live up to the prudent investment laws that also sort of follow this portfolio theory of how how have you actually divest? Sorry? Um diversify Yeah. Um your your funds across different investment classes to protect yourself and there are different considerations that go along with that. Um But that is one reason why you don’t want to get stuck with all of your investments being in crypto because crypto maybe one of the most volatile type of investments where it can double in a matter of days and it could tank and disappear in a matter of days as well. So depending upon what type of Cryptocurrency you have and there are hundreds if not thousands of crypto types of Cryptocurrency um that have evolved in a lot of people and organizations that are making new coins all the time. So new new forms of Cryptocurrency arising and while we talked about crypto as being a part of more investment portfolios as a normal part of of investments. Now it’s not every Cryptocurrency that would be in that it’s certainly one

[00:48:47.07] spk_0:
1000 right? Some of these thousands trade for thousands of pennies, Thousands Yeah thousands of pennies even you know .0001 three zeros and a one is you know is the value of the currency. Um So. Alright that’s perfect as I said, perfect dovetail to that to that uh that november show because you’re you’re raising the prudent investor rule and and uh portfolio theory.

[00:50:07.66] spk_1:
One more thing on this, tony the forms the I. R. S. Forms for when you get Non cash contributions of more than $500. And how quickly you sell them. Um Also applies to form 82 83 is what the donor needs to sign when they give a non cash contribution of over $500 of over $500. And if it’s over $5000 which many crypto gifts are, they have to get a qualified appraisal for this. So that’s really important. And the Dhoni which is the charity has to sign that form for the donor. And then if the donor the Dhoni, I’m sorry the charity sells it within three years, they have to sign a form 80 to 82. Yeah so that’s again it’s not terribly hard. It sounds like a lot of just legalese I’m blabbing out but it’s not too hard but just take a quick look at those. If you decide that you want to start getting Cryptocurrency and at worst you might ask your donor to find a donor advised fund that takes crypto turns it into cash and then disperses it to the charity. So there are donor advised funds that do that

[00:50:15.76] spk_0:
interesting. Okay so so a Cryptocurrency donation is a non cash donation

[00:50:19.90] spk_1:
correct?

[00:50:58.76] spk_0:
Okay and for non cash donations of $500 or more, That’s where your your donor has the implication of i. r. s. Form 82 83. And you as the charity if you sell it within three years which your advice is that they do because it’s of its volatility Then you’ve got the implication of i. r. s. Form 80 – 82. I always thought those were backwards. The donors should have 80 to 82 because that comes first. Then comes 82 83 from the don’t to the Dhoni first the donor has it. Then the charity should be 80 to 82 82 83. But it’s not It’s 82 83 for your donor and 80 – 82 for you.

[00:51:06.16] spk_1:
That sounds like larry david logic. But that’s how I think as well.

[00:51:10.58] spk_0:
Yeah. I’ve been accused of being larry David in lots of ways. Including my my hair when it’s long like it is

[00:51:16.23] spk_1:
now. I’ve

[00:51:33.46] spk_0:
been accused of looking like Larry David. But we’re not complaining, we’re helping. That’s all right. Um Alright let’s leave us with something else. Another trend for the new year that you want us to be thinking about gene. Um

[00:51:36.96] spk_1:
Let me talk a little bit about diversity equity and inclusion. Since we’ve we’ve talked about that in the

[00:51:42.21] spk_0:
past. You could search jean and I have talked about D. I a bunch of times. But

[00:53:46.05] spk_1:
yeah please. You know I think in combination when we talk about the great migration and how the pandemic might be affecting different populations in different ways that we start to think again about kind of? Well if our charity is doing some some mission and we might not think of that mission as being really reflective of of specific races or or anything like that. Um But could D. E. I. B. Important anyway. And I think that’s where we get to think about. Well if we had more perspectives in our organization, if if we’re lacking some of those perspectives now, for example not having a lot of latin thinks Hispanics or blacks or asian americans on the board or in the leadership group, maybe we’re not really thinking about how our services that we’re delivering are affecting different populations differently. Maybe we’re just sort of providing services but we’re focused on urban centers or urban centers where if we’re center based, our center based is in neighborhoods that are much more accessible to uh white populations versus other populations. So getting different perspectives, even if we think of ourselves as being race neutral, which is kind of a charged term. But I’ll just use it for for these purposes. If we think some of us think of ourselves as race neutral and therefore we don’t have to get involved in the D. E. I work. We want to say, well don’t we care about serving our population in a way that’s kind of fair and not just favoring one segment over other segments or just totally neglecting certain segments of the population because they don’t have the same type of access. Have we ever thought about those things and having diversity can help us think about those things. Um, but it has to be done obviously in an inclusive way, which we’ve talked about and I know we just have a few minutes here, but it’s

[00:54:03.34] spk_0:
sort of it’s touching on, you know, not knowing what you don’t know without without having the perspective of diverse populations on your board, in your leadership, then you don’t know how you’re not serving other non white populations. Yeah. And even when we were perceived by other by by non white populations.

[00:55:32.64] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. And even when we say, well when we look at a group of people and we say diversity, you know, that has one meaning. But sometimes when we just look in our inside our own heads, uh, and when people go unconscious bias, for example, try to think about what that is. It’s like, well if we don’t have the benefit of having different perspectives are being exposed to that all of our lives and none of us have all of the perspectives in our lives. So we were all going to be guilty of some sort of unconscious bias because we just don’t know any better. We we haven’t had other information that would have help develop a sensitivity or understanding or just knowledge of some of the disparities that are out there. So, and and how our organization can be either helping those disparities or hindering them. So just getting a sense of where we’d like to go. I think that can improve employee retention. It can lead us to new areas of employee recruitment and it can make us more relevant as organizations in the future, where if we’re not addressing some of these things, we could find ourselves becoming irrelevant less attractive to future donors, especially younger donors who this is very important to. Um, and so that’s my, my closing thought. Mhm.

[00:55:48.24] spk_0:
All good thoughts for uh, for the new year for 2022, Gene Takagi are legal, legal contributor, Managing attorney of Neo. You’ll find him at nonprofit law blog dot com. He’s also at G attack and you’ll find the firm at neo law group dot com. Gene again, thank you very much. Happy New Year.

[00:55:57.39] spk_1:
Happy New Year. tony

[00:56:47.13] spk_0:
next week. I’m working on it very diligently. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Do you need help with any of those ready projects in 2022? Get them off your plate. A creative producer is claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein. Mm hmm, thank you for that affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for November 1, 2021: Risk Management II

My Guest:

Gene Takagi: Risk Management II

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns to complete our coverage of the risks lurking in your employee relations; facilities; events; and vehicles. Also, what to do to keep those risks at a minimum, so incidents don’t hurt your nonprofit. Gene is our legal contributor and principal at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group. (Part I was on October 4th.)

 

 

 

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We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Nonprofit Radio for September 20, 2021: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

My Guest:

Pratichi Shah: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

Starting with your people, your culture and your leadership, how do you identify, talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your nonprofit? My guest is Pratichi Shah, founder & CEO at Flourish Talent Management Solutions. (Originally aired 7/8/20)

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:01:54.44] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of chiari malformation if you pushed down on me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. You’re dismantling racism journey, starting with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you identify? Talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your non profit My guest is pretty itchy Shah, founder and Ceo at flourish Talent management Solutions. This originally aired July 8, 2020 Antonis take two planned giving in the pandemic era. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is you’re dismantling racism journey. It’s a real pleasure to welcome welcome. I’m not welcoming. I’m welcoming. I’m welcoming party Sheesha. She’s an HR strategist and thought leader with 25 years experience in all aspects of talent management. She’s making a face when I say 25 years human resources equity and inclusion and organizational development in the nonprofit and for profit arenas. She is founder and Ceo of flourish Talent management solutions. The company is at flourish tMS dot com Prodigy. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:56.44] spk_0:
Thank you so much. tony I appreciate being

[00:01:59.53] spk_1:
here. It’s a pleasure pleasure to have you. Um, and I’d like to jump right in if you’re if you’re ready um

[00:02:06.26] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:02:42.14] spk_1:
you know um racism and white privilege most often look very Benign on their face, I had a guest explain why use of the word professional in a job description is racist. I had a more recently I had a guest explain how not listening a salary range in a job description was felt racist to them. So how do we begin to uncover what is inequitable and right under our noses yet not visible on its

[00:02:45.54] spk_0:
face? Yeah. You know what often it starts with listening to state state a bit of the obvious. It really does started listening. It’s understanding for organizations. It’s understanding where we are. Um so it’s listening to the voices that may not have been centered. We’ve become better as organizations and being responsive to staff. I hear that a lot kind of hey this is what my staff is telling me. This is what we need to do. But the question is, are you responding to the voices that have possibly been marginalized? Likely been marginalized or oppressed in the past? General responsiveness is not the same as centering the voices that really need to be heard. So it’s first off just understanding where you are as an organization and listening to the people who may have experienced organization in a way that is different than you think.

[00:03:36.21] spk_1:
So when you say general responsiveness is not what not adequate, not what we’re looking for. What do you mean by that?

[00:04:35.54] spk_0:
So a lot of time the voices that are saying, hey something’s wrong or we need to do this or we need to do that are not the voices of those that have been marginalized and oppressed. They tend to be maybe the loudest voices they’re speaking maybe from a place of privilege and that needs to be taken into account. So being responsive, for instance, if the I call it kind of the almond milk issue being responsive to a staff that says in addition to dairy milk for coffee, this is back when we were in fiscal offices, um, we need almond milk to, but the question is is are we listening to the voices of those that weren’t able to consume the dairy milk? It’s not a perfect metaphor. It’s not a perfect analogy because that one ignores actual pain and it just talks about preference. But are we listening to the voices of people that have been impressed? Who have who have been, who have heard the word professional or professionalism wielded against them as a as an obstacle in their path to success in their path to career advancement. Those are the voices that we need to listen to, not the ones who have a preference for one thing or another.

[00:04:54.34] spk_1:
Okay, uh, let’s be explicit about how we identify who, who holds these voices? Who are these people?

[00:05:30.04] spk_0:
It’s people that have come from, it’s particularly right now when we talk about anti black racism, we need to center the voices of those from the black community. And that means those who have either, maybe not joined, not just not joined our organization for particular reasons, but maybe they have not joined our board, Maybe they have not participated in our programs, maybe they haven’t had the chance to. So it’s really from an organizational perspective, think of it as understanding what our current state is. So how does your organization move people up? Move people in, move people out if we don’t have the voices in the first place? Because maybe we’re not as welcoming as we should be, then what does the data tell us about? Who’s coming into our organization? Who is leaving our organization, Who is able to move up into our organization, what our leadership looks like, what our board looks like. So at times the fact that there is an absence of voice is telling in and of itself and our data needs to be able to explain what is going on. So that data needs to be looked at as well.

[00:06:38.64] spk_1:
So we need to very well, good chance we need to look outside our organization. You’re talking about people that we’ve turned down for board board positions, turned down for employment. Um, I’m not even gonna say turned down for promotion because that would presume that there’s still that that presumes are still in the organization, but I’m talking about, very likely going outside the organization. People who don’t work with us, who aren’t volunteering, who aren’t supporting us in any way, but we’ve marginalise them? We’ve cast them out before they even had a chance to get in?

[00:06:42.28] spk_0:
Potentially. Yeah, actually, probably, probably there is something that they have not found palatable or appealing about working with us or being a sensor or being uh, to your point of volunteer. So we need we need to look at why that’s happening.

[00:07:22.54] spk_1:
Okay. I’ve got to I got to drill down even further. How are we going to identify these people within within our organization as it is? How are we gonna figure out which people these are that we’ve marginalized these voices of color over the let’s just pick like in the past five years, what have we? Well, if we’ve done this, how do we identify the people? We’ve done it too.

[00:07:42.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a really it’s a complicated question. It will differ by organization, right? It differs by what your subsector is, how things flow within a subsector, the size of the organization. A really good place to start is understanding who has turned us down. Why have people left? So take a look at exit interviews. Even if you’re not doing exit interviews, we know that there is not always uh HR presence in a lot of our organizations. If there aren’t formal exit interviews. First of all, let’s make time for those because we need to understand why people are leaving. Um but if there isn’t a formal HR presence, what do we know about the circumstances under which someone left organization or said no to a job offer or said no to a board position or volunteer. It’s also important to ask, expanding our definition of stakeholder groups, engaging with all of our stakeholder groups as broadly defined as possible. And within those groups, understanding are we reaching out to a diverse audience to say why would you engage with us? Why would you not engage with us in any of those roles? So, yeah, it’s going to be a little bit harder to understand that people who are not there because they’re not there.

[00:08:51.84] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So all right. Um we go through this exercise and and we identify we we’ve identified a dozen people. They’re not they’re not currently connected to us. And uh it may be that they have had a bad experience with us. Yeah, I think they may have turned us down for employment because they got offered more money somewhere else. Um That could that in itself could be

[00:09:03.60] spk_0:
Alright, let’s

[00:09:57.24] spk_1:
that in itself could be uh not something other than benign. Um But let’s say they moved out of the state, you know, they were they were thinking about so so in some cases they may not have a bad have had a bad experience with us, but in but in lots of cases they may have they may have turned down that board position because they saw the current composition of the board and they didn’t feel they felt like, uh maybe being an offer a token slot or whatever, whatever it might be. I’m just, I’m just suggesting that some of the, some of the feelings toward the organization might not be negative, but some might very well be negative. Of the dozen people we’ve identified in all these different stakeholder, potential stakeholder roles that they could have had. Um, what do we reach out to them and say, how do we, how do we get them to join a conversation with an organization that they may feel unwelcome him?

[00:10:15.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And I think right now, especially we tried carefully. Um, we tried carefully and we honor the fact that they in fact might be getting that same question from many other other organizations, friends, colleagues, family members, in which people want to understand something, What we’re seeking to do is not be educated on the overall picture of white privilege, white supremacy of dominant narrative and dominant culture. That’s on us, that’s on all of us individually to understand that, that is not the, that is not up to the member of society, tell us that. Right? So what, what we want to understand is kind of, what did you experience with our organization? What was the good? What was the bad and first of all, do you even want to engage with us, Is this not a good time to do that because they’re already exhausted. I said to a colleague recently, you know, we can’t even understand the reality of what it’s like to live the right to live that reality and for many to lead the charge, right? Because they’re also showing leadership in the movement. So to we can’t even understand what those layers of existence or like. So I think it’s treading very carefully and should we have the ability to engage with someone because they have the space, the energy, the desire then I think it’s understanding and asking kind of what’s going on for us? What where did you find us either not appealing or where did you? Why did you not want to work with us in whatever capacity we were asking and it’s asking that question.

[00:11:34.80] spk_1:
Okay, well that’s further down, right? I’m just trying to get to like what’s the initial email invitation look like?

[00:11:54.24] spk_0:
It depends on the organization. It depends on the organization. It depends on the relationship. I wouldn’t presume to give words to that to be honest with you because because I think it also depends on the person that you’re asking. I don’t want to offer kind of a blanket response and inadvertently tokenize people by saying, oh, of course they’re going to want to engage with us. So I really think it’s dependent on the situation

[00:12:56.34] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you want to hone your message? Turn to, we’ll work with you to find your core message and make it concise simple for the world to grasp. So that as they get you placed in major media, like you’ve heard me name, and also in podcasts in blogs, at conferences, on op ed pages. Your message, your voice will resonate. They’ll help you hone your message, find your voice and get it heard. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to your dismantling racism journey. What are you inviting them to do with you? Have a conversation, share your experience with us, Is it?

[00:13:44.14] spk_0:
Yes, essentially. I mean, that’s what it boils down to. But again, it really depends on what the organization is, Right? So this is your data collection moment. This is information collection. Where else are you collecting information? What what else do you know? What other steps have you taken to begin that educational process? Because there’s there’s kind of a dual purpose here, right? Is understanding who we are in, where we have contributed to structural racism, to pretend to a culture that does not support differing viewpoints, differing populations. That is in some ways upholding white supremacy or is completely holding upholding white supremacy and its culture. There’s that general education of understanding all of that, and then there’s understanding what our organization’s role is, right? So it’s both. And um, so it’s really highly dependent upon where is the organization? Uh case for us, who you’ve talked to? The head of Equity in the centre describes a cycle that is brilliant. Um around awake to woke to work. Where are you in that cycle? Are you? Where are you on? Um Where are you? And being pluralistic? Where are you? And being inclusive? All of those things depend on what you’ll ask and how you’ll reach out and if you even should reach out there maybe work that has to be done internally before that reach out can happen again. Just being considerate and sensitive of those who are willing to talk

[00:14:35.34] spk_1:
to you. Yeah. Okay. Was our guest for the last uh most recent special episode on this exact same subject. Thank you.

[00:14:37.78] spk_0:
Yeah. The organization is doing has been since its inception has been doing incredible work. K is leading that work um and both her words always contained wisdom and the products that they put out are extraordinary.

[00:15:09.44] spk_1:
How about in your work are you facilitating the kinds of conversations in your practice that you and I are talking about right now? Do you do you bring these outside folks in sometimes to to have these conversations

[00:15:53.24] spk_0:
sometimes? Yeah. Sometimes again being highly respectful of if they didn’t want to engage with us? Do they even want to talk to us right now. My work really is around um having an organization understand where it is right now. So what is its current state? What is the desire and future state? Right, so we know that we want to be a racially inclusive racially equitable organization likely that’s already been defined. But what does that mean for us as an organization If it means solely in numbers piece Right? Like we want to be more divorces aboard. Okay, that’s fine. But beyond that, how will we make ourselves have a board culture that is appealing to those people that we want to bring in to work with us? So it’s kind of defining both current state and understanding current state, defining future state and then developing the strategy to get there.

[00:16:09.14] spk_1:
Ok. And now you and I are talking about, you said, you know, we’re still data gathering. So we’re still defining the current culture as it exists. Right. Okay. Okay. And your work, you you centered around people. Culture and leadership.

[00:16:20.64] spk_0:
Mhm.

[00:16:24.34] spk_1:
Can we focus on leadership? I feel like everything trickles down from there.

[00:16:26.66] spk_0:
Very true.

[00:16:28.74] spk_1:
I don’t know. Are we okay? Are you okay starting with a leadership conversation or you’d rather start somewhere else?

[00:16:35.46] spk_0:
No, we can we can start that. That’s absolutely fine.

[00:16:48.84] spk_1:
Okay. Um so what what is it we’re looking for? Leaders of our listeners are small and midsize nonprofits to to commit you.

[00:16:54.74] spk_0:
I think it’s first of all committing to their own learning and and not relying on communities of color to provide that learning. Right? Again, going back to what we said earlier, it’s not relying on those who have been harmed or oppressed to provide the learning. So first of all, it’s an individual attorney that’s a given. Okay,

[00:17:25.14] spk_1:
can I like to, I like things like people. I like action steps. Okay, so when we’re talking about our individual journey, our own learning, I mean I’ve been doing some of this recently by watching Youtube, watching, um, focus on Youtube of course. Now now I can’t remember the names of people, but

[00:17:30.43] spk_0:
no Eddie Glaude.

[00:17:53.54] spk_1:
Um, so Eddie Glaude is a commentator on MSNBC. Uh, he’s just written a just released this last week a biography. Well, not so much a biography of James baldwin, but an explanation of baldwin’s journey around racism. Um, so that’s one example of, you know, who have been listening to? So we’re, so we’re talking about educating like learning from thought leaders around Yeah, privilege structures. Were reading books, listening to podcasts.

[00:18:00.12] spk_0:
Absolutely. It’s around, it’s around structures, but it’s also understanding things that we do all the time and organizations and how I as a leader might perpetuate those, right? So it’s sometimes the use of language to your point about the use of the word professional. Um, language tends to create our reality. So, and either language will build a bridge or not. So how do we use our language? How do we use our descriptors. How do I show up as a leader? Um, in my own kind of inclusion or not. So I think it is absolutely that is looking at thought leaders around things like structural racism around the use of language around people’s individual experiences to get that insight and depth because it’s not just an intellectual exercise. This is emotional too. And therefore has to have emotional resonance.

[00:18:51.24] spk_1:
Okay, thank you for letting me dive deeper into what

[00:18:55.21] spk_0:
Absolutely

[00:18:56.26] spk_1:
talk about personal, you know, your own personal journey, your own personal education, uh, fact finding and introspection. You’re talking about something, you know, and it’s no, no revelation. This is it’s

[00:19:09.42] spk_0:
difficult. If it’s painful.

[00:19:31.54] spk_1:
You know, you you’re very likely uncovering how you offended someone, uh, how you offended a group. Um, if you were, you know, speaking in public and something comes to mind or how you offended someone in meetings or, you know, multiplied. I don’t know how many times. I mean, this introspection is likely painful,

[00:19:39.44] spk_0:
likely likely. Yeah, more often, more often than not, I can’t I can’t really envision it not at some level being painful,

[00:19:43.27] spk_1:
but you’ve caused pain, you know, and there’s a recognition there.

[00:19:46.92] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:19:53.24] spk_1:
painful for you. But let’s consider the pain of the person or the group that

[00:19:54.35] spk_0:
you

[00:19:58.54] spk_1:
I don’t know offended, stereotyped. Mean, put off whatever it is, you’re

[00:20:01.84] spk_0:
that’s right. And that that’s why the work as much as I know, you know, to some degree, people want this to be work. That can be kind of project managed if you will or it can be put into a process or a series of best practices or

[00:20:14.08] spk_1:
benchmarks

[00:20:15.64] spk_0:
to some degree, not very much, but to some degree. Yes, absolutely. The some a little bit of that can happen, but that in and of itself is a bit of the dominant narrative, right? That in and of itself is kind of that that centering white culture. So I think what we need to understand is this is not just going to be again to sorry to be redundant, but it’s not just going to be intellectual.

[00:20:38.41] spk_1:
The

[00:20:39.04] spk_0:
fact that pain has been caused dictates that this be emotionally owned as well. It can’t be arm’s length. It can’t be just intellectually owned with the project plan that I keep over here on a chalkboard or something like that.

[00:21:02.64] spk_1:
Emotionally owned. Yeah. Thank you. All right. All right. So I made you digress and deepen what else, what else you wanna tell us about leadership’s commitment and and and the importance of leadership, commitment.

[00:23:24.54] spk_0:
Yeah. So it needs to be explicit. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be baked into the leadership. Whatever leadership structure the organization has, it needs to be an ongoing piece of that leadership. So it’s not a hey, let’s touch base on our quote inclusion initiative if it’s an initiative first of all, that’s not really doing the work anyway. Um, but it’s not something that lives separately from ourselves. Let’s have HR kind of check in on this or let’s have the operations person check in on this. That’s that’s not what this is about. It’s really, it’s authentically being owned by leadership to say? Yeah, I know it’s gonna be painful. And in looking at our organization, we’re gonna need to understand why our leadership is remarkably homogeneous. Which in the case of many nonprofits, it is if you take a look at Building Movement project and the unbelievably great work that they’ve done twice now, they just put out an update to their leadership work around how people move through the sector or don’t and how people, communities of color and people of color are represented in our leadership. We can begin to understand that by and large, they’re they’re not. Um though i that is an oversimplification in some ways. So I would encourage people to go to building movement project’s website and check out their work. Um but you know what, why are we so homogeneous? Why is there a board so homogeneous? It’s also unpacking and uncovering that. So to your point earlier about, you know, how do we look at people and how they move through the organization? This is where you look at who is present, right? Not just who’s not with us, but who is with us? How do people get Promoted? How does that system work does any does everyone have the same information? Is it a case of unwritten rules, is it a case of some people move up because they’re similar or they have 10 years of experience, which is something that we like to say, How do you get 10 years of experience if you have not been given those chances to begin with. So is their life experience that we can that we can begin to integrate in our conversations because life experience is equally valuable. Are we putting too much of a premium on higher education education and its formal kind of traditional form? Are we putting too much of uh of an emphasis on pedigree of other kinds of those? Those are the things that ultimately keep people out. So taking a look at leadership and having leadership commitment ultimately means looking at all of those things. There’s an overlap and how we look at leadership or people and or organizational culture.

[00:23:46.14] spk_1:
Yeah, of course. This is a it’s a continuum or

[00:23:48.53] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely. And the areas bleed into each other.

[00:24:10.04] spk_1:
Yeah, of course. Um and you know, I subsumed in all this I guess. I mean it’s okay for leaders to say, I don’t know where the where the journey is going, I don’t know what we’re going to uncover, but I’m committed to having this journey and leading it and and right. I mean, supporting it, but I don’t know what we’re gonna find. Right.

[00:24:16.74] spk_0:
Right, right. And that in and of itself can be uncomfortable for a lot of people and that’s that’s the kind of discomfort we need to get okay with.

[00:24:30.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Alright. Yeah. You know I had I had a guest explained that this is not as you were alluding to? Uh it’s not the kind of thing that you know, we’re gonna have a weekly meeting and will be these outcomes at the end of every meeting then we’ll have this list of activities and you know the you know, how come it’s not like that? How come we can’t do it like that?

[00:25:02.24] spk_0:
Yeah. Because we’re dealing with hundreds and hundreds of years of history and it’s because we haven’t been inclusive in the ways that we do things and we haven’t allowed whole selves to show up that it is um It’s it’s complicated and it’s messy because it’s human.

[00:25:05.74] spk_1:
All right, so it’s not gonna be as simple as our budget meetings

[00:25:08.84] spk_0:
today. Right. Absolutely different. Different kind of

[00:25:13.26] spk_1:
hard. Alright. We’re going to have an outcome at every at every juncture at every step or every week or every month or something. Yeah.

[00:25:19.48] spk_0:
That’s right. That’s right. And if we expect it to go that way, we are likely going to give ourselves excuses not to press on.

[00:27:00.64] spk_1:
It’s time for tony state too planned giving in the pandemic era. That’s my webinar coming up. I’m hosted for it by J. M. T. Consulting. Very grateful to them for hosting. We’re doing this on Thursday, September 30, 2 to 3 o’clock Eastern time planned. Giving in the pandemic era. So what am I going to talk about, what is planned? Giving? We’ve got to start with that right. What this thing is who your best prospects are? Where to start your program and the overarching. How does this all fit into our pandemic era? So I hope you’ll be with me to uh reserve your spot. It’s free. It’s a free webinar now by the way. But you do have to make a reservation. So to do that, you go to J. M. T. Consulting dot com Juliet mike, tango, J. M. T. Consulting dot com. Go to events and then pull down to lackluster speaker series and I’ll be the sole person listed there. They have an expert speaker series. That’s for everybody else. But now you have to actually uh, they were gracious enough to uh, not only host me but uh lump me in with the the expert speakers. So you do have to go to expert speaker series and you’ll find me right there. So I hope you’ll be with me Thursday September 30 two o’clock eastern

[00:27:02.44] spk_0:
for

[00:27:18.24] spk_1:
planned giving in the pandemic era. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for your dismantling racism journey. All right. So that’s what it’s not what what does it look like.

[00:28:42.04] spk_0:
Oh, it absolutely looks different for every organization. It absolutely looks different for every organization and that’s what’s so critical to understand. Kind of, where are we right now? Um, where are we? As far as all of the components of our organization. Right. So volatile again, volunteers ford staff culture. You said, you know, we were talking about people organization and leadership which is obviously a lot of my work. Um it is getting underneath all of those kinds of things to say. So who experiences our culture? How? Um so we do engagement surveys, Right. A lot of times we do engagement employee surveys, that kind of thing. Are we looking at those disagreeing disaggregated way? Are we asking different populations to identify themselves? And are we looking at what the experiences are by population? Are we asking explicit questions around whether or not you feel like you can be yourself in this organization, Whether you can provide dissenting opinions, whether you feel comfortable approaching your boss with feedback. Um whether you feel comfortable volunteering for particular work, whether you feel like you understand what a promotion or performance management processes, whether you get the support that you need or to what extent you get support that you need either from colleagues, boss leadership etcetera. So it’s looking at all of those things and then understanding are they being experienced differently by different communities within our organization.

[00:28:52.54] spk_1:
You mentioned disaggregate ng. That’s where the data is not helpful. Right?

[00:28:53.54] spk_0:
That is where we look at the data in terms of populations.

[00:28:57.94] spk_1:
Oh, Oh, aggregate, of course. Aggregating. I’m sorry.

[00:29:01.32] spk_0:
That’s OK.

[00:29:02.24] spk_1:
You’re stuck with a lackluster host. No, of course, yes. Aggregating

[00:29:06.02] spk_0:
early in the week.

[00:29:22.74] spk_1:
Uh Thank you. You couldn’t say early in the day, but thank you for being gracious. Okay. Yes. We uh we we want to disaggregate of course. Um and look by population and I guess cut a different way. I mean depending on the size of the organization. Um Age, race, age,

[00:29:26.74] spk_0:
race, ethnicity, um A physical ability, orientation. All of those need to be in the mix gender as well, including gender fluidity. So really looking at all of our populations and then understanding for these particular questions, is there a difference and how people experience our organization? We know then what we do know is that if there is a difference that there is a difference, we don’t know that there is causality unless there unless you’ve asked questions that might begin to illuminate that, right? But there’s always that difference between correlation and causality and then what you want to do is get underneath that to understand why the experience might be different and why it might change along lines of gender or race or ethnicity or orientation or physical ability.

[00:30:19.04] spk_1:
We uh we wandered, you know? But that’s that’s fine.

[00:30:22.60] spk_0:
I love it’s all part of the people in organization part

[00:30:31.84] spk_1:
people culture and um and leadership all coming together. Um uh Where do you want to go? Uh I mean I would like to talk about people. Culture and leadership. What’s a good what’s a good next one?

[00:32:30.34] spk_0:
Yes. Well, so this is what you’re doing, right? Is your collecting information and all of those three areas. Right and wanted. So a couple of things that I would add to that is when you look at people, you’re looking at their experiences, when you look at leadership, you’re looking at commitment makeup, structure, access, all of those kinds of things. When you’re looking at culture, you’re looking at how people experience the culture, right? And so what is happening? What’s not happening with stated out loud? What’s not stated out loud? What are the unwritten rules? There is also the piece that forms all of these things, which is operational systems. Right? So things like performance management, things like um where people may sit back when we were in physical offices, having access to technology, all of those kinds of things, particularly important now that we’re not in physical offices, so does everyone have access to the technology and information necessary to do their job, to do their jobs to do their work? So it is looking also at your operational side and saying how do we live our operational life? How do, how do people experience it, who do we engage with to provide services for our operations? How do we provide the services if you will, for lack of better term to our employees? So it’s also looking at that because operations ultimately permeates organizational culture, people and leadership, right? Because it kind of sustains all of that. So taking a look at that too. And finally, I would suggest again as part of this and as a wraparound is, what is the internal external alignment? Right. So I often hear people say, hey, you know what, this is the subsector we work in, people would think that we’re really equitable, but internally we are living a different life than what we are putting out to our stakeholders in our constituencies externally. So what is what is our external life and how does that need to inform our internal world? It’s not unusual for me to hear that the external life, the way we engage with stakeholders or the way we put out program programmatic work is actually may be further along to the extent that this is considered to be a continuum. It’s further along than the way that we’re living our life. Internal life

[00:32:53.10] spk_1:
dishonesty there disconnect that

[00:32:56.54] spk_0:
there’s a disconnect disconnect for sure. And possibly yeah, dishonesty. And hip hop, maybe even hypocrisy.

[00:33:09.04] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Alright, but again, all right, so now we’re looking like this is organizational introspection. There’s there’s individual learning and introspection. Now we’re at the organizational

[00:33:14.34] spk_0:
level, being

[00:33:15.78] spk_1:
honest with our, with our culture and our messaging,

[00:33:19.84] spk_0:
right? And and so what I tried to do is to help organizations kind of look at those things and decide how we might evolve, given the future that we’ve set our sights on and given some of the principles that we’ve laid out, how do we kind of get there? How do we, how do we evolve our systems, how do we evolve our people practices? How do we evolve our culture? So hence the need to look at all of these things that centered around people, Culture and leadership.

[00:34:07.54] spk_1:
What about the use of professional facilitator? Because well, first of all, there’s a body of expertise that someone like you brings uh but also help with these difficult conversations. Talk about the value of having an expert facilitator.

[00:35:20.54] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. So so you know, I think I think there’s always a level of objectivity and and kind of an inside look by an outsider that you that you benefit from. We go to experts for everything from, you know, our health to the extent that we have access to those experts, which is a whole different conversation on race and oppression. Um we we want that external voice. What I would say is it’s likely not going to be the same expert or the same facilitator and I say expert in quotes um for everything. So for instance, I am not the voice to be centred on educating an organization around structural racism. I don’t think I’m the right voice to be centered. I would rather send her voices like those at um race forward at equity in the center at those who have lived the results of 400 years of oppression. So you might want to call in someone for that discussion for that education. There are people that are better and more steeped in that and whose voices should absolutely be centered for that? Um You might want to call in a voice for White Ally ship because there is some specifics around that that we need to talk about without kind of centering White voices.

[00:35:27.85] spk_1:
I’m sorry White Ally ship.

[00:35:29.92] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:35:30.46] spk_1:
What is that?

[00:36:50.63] spk_0:
So if we think about the the organization right in our kind of culture and are people who who wants to half sees themselves as an ally and how can they be good? How can how can white people be good allies? Right. And how do we further and embed that in the culture? Um and then finally, so keeping that in mind that there are going to be different experts or different facilitators for different things, you know, who is going to be the person in my case, this actually might be is to help us evolve our culture and our systems so that we can be more equitable and take a look at that. Who’s going to provide the training because their skills necessary. Right to have these conversations. There are foundational communication skills, there is the ability to give feedback. Um there is the ability to communicate across cultures across genders across across groups. There is ability to be collaborative. So so also strengthening those skills while we continue to look at those things, but to think that all of this help is going to come from one source is not ideal and likely it’s even inappropriate because everyone can’t be everything. I don’t try to be the voices that I can’t be. It’s inappropriate for me to do that. Mhm.

[00:36:54.73] spk_1:
What what else do you want to, what do you want to talk about given the level where that we’re at? We’re trying to help small and midsize nonprofits inaugurate a journey around racism and white privilege.

[00:38:42.82] spk_0:
I think. I mean, look, first of all, I hear a lot of organizations say like what what is the access point? Like what do I get started doing? We put out a statement um in some cases we are experiencing some dissonance between the statement that we put out or the programmatic work that we do and the way that we’re living internally. So it is really understanding kind of where are we now, through all of the ways that we’ve been talking about over the last several minutes, where are we now? What is it that we’re not doing that we should be doing? What is it that we need to be doing? How do we define for us? If we have an equitable culture, if we are living racial equity, what does that look like for us? Um how does that affect our programmatic work? How does that affect our operations? Everything from our finances to our people processes to when we’re back in an office, even our physical setup, how how does that affect us and how would we define that future state? So it’s understanding what is my current state, What is my future state and then understanding how we get there and it’s likely going to be a long, all of the areas that we said right? So individual attorneys, some group and individual skill building, um, some evolution of our systems and some understanding of kind of how we can support each other and support ourselves for those that are that affiliate with a particular group. Um, and then kind of moving us along to that place of where we want to be. So it is, it is understanding where you are that determines what your access point is. But I would say if you if you have done the work of putting out this statement then there then look for look for where you’re not living that statement internally.

[00:38:55.72] spk_1:
That sounds like a very good place to Yeah. To start your search for for an access point because it’s so recent, Your organization has probably said something in the past 5, 6 weeks.

[00:39:00.82] spk_0:
Absolutely. And

[00:39:01.79] spk_1:
close are you hewing to that to that statement?

[00:39:20.22] spk_0:
Exactly. And we are incredibly, I would say important the use of the term but almost fortunate that so many thought leaders have been kind and generous enough to share with us their thoughts on this moment. So not just within the sector, but all the way across our society. So many people have taken the time and the patients and the generosity amidst everything else that they’re living through. They have agreed to share their thoughts, their leadership, their expertise with us? So there is a ton of knowledge out there right at our fingertips and that’s a, that’s another really great place to start and to center the voices that most need to be heard

[00:39:52.72] spk_1:
at the same time. You know, we are seeing beginnings of change. Uh institutions from Princeton University to the state of Mississippi

[00:40:14.41] spk_0:
right? Absolutely. To hopefully, uh, you know, the unnamed Washington football team and to Nascar and places where we, I didn’t know that change necessarily was possible, but we we are saying change and and the important thing is to not be complacent about that change,

[00:41:18.61] spk_1:
right? And not and also recognize that it’s just the beginning, you know, removing confederate statues, um taking old glory off the Mississippi flag. These are just beginnings, but but I think worth worth noting. I mean worth recognizing and celebrating because the state of Mississippi is a big institution and it’s been wrestling with this for, I don’t know if they’ve been wrestling for centuries, but that flag has been there for that just that long, right? 18. Some things I think is when that flag was developed. So it’s been a long, it’s been a long time coming. So recognizing it for what it is celebrating it to the extent that the, yeah, to the extent that represents the change. Beginning of the beginning of change? All right. Um, well, you know, what else, what else, what else do you want to share with folks at this, you know, at this

[00:42:02.10] spk_0:
stage? You know, I think, I think the main thing is um, dig in uh, we need to dig in on this. We need to dig in on this because in the same way that that we have been living this society societally for so long are organizations many times are microcosms of society. So if we think as an organization that were exempt or that were already there, we’ve arrived at like a post racial culture, that’s not the case. That’s just not the case. Um, so where do you want to dig it? Where do you want to dig in, chances are good. You are doing some version of looking at issues within your organization, whether it’s your annual survey, if you do it annually or whatever in which you can use that information to begin this journey. So dig in from where you are, it’s one of those things that if you’re waiting, if you’re waiting for kind of the exact right time or further analysis to begin the journey again, it’s not, it’s not based solely on analysis. There is a there is certainly information, there’s data that needs to be understood. But if we’re waiting for endless analysis to happen or to kind of point us to the right time that’s not going to happen. The intellectualism needs to be there. But again, as we said in the path, as we said a few times during the course of our conversation? This is about emotional residents and an emotional ownership and a moral obligation. So, dig in dig in wherever you are right now,

[00:43:15.10] spk_1:
what if I’m trying within my organization? Uh, and I’m not the leader, I’m not even second or third tier management or something, you know, how do I elevate the conversation? Uh, I presume it helps to have allies. What if what if I’m meeting a resistance from the people who, who are in leadership?

[00:43:50.50] spk_0:
I think look for the places where they’re made, not the resistance, right? So look within the organization. Um, if there is resistance at a particular level, then you know, who do you have access to in the organization where there isn’t that? And I think, I think starting out not assuming that you have solutions if you have expertise in this area, if you have lived through the oppression as a member of a community that has lived through the impression particularly black community, I think you’re coming from one place, if you are if you are not in that community and saying that you have expertise, I think you have to be a little bit more circumspect about that and introspective about what you can offer in this vein. Um, and I think, I think we want to look for the places where there is some traction, I think in most organizations, it’s not unusual to be getting the question right now

[00:44:25.59] spk_1:
and what is the I don’t want to call it outcome. What, what, what what can the future look like for our organization if we do embark on this long journey?

[00:44:42.89] spk_0:
Yeah, cultures that are equitable in which people can show up as their whole selves. Um, in which there is not only one right way to do things, which tends to be a very kind of white dominant Western culture, linear sequential way of managing work, of managing communications, etcetera. But that in fact work can be approached in a number of different ways and that solutions can be approached in a number of different ways. People get to show up and give their all to these missions that we all hold very near and dear. And so they are able they’re empowered. They are able they are celebrated without sticking to a set of preconceived guidelines or preconceived, unwritten or written rules that don’t serve us anymore. Anyway,

[00:45:24.49] spk_1:
when you started to answer that, I saw your face lighten up. You’re I don’t know, it was a smile. It just looks like you’re faced untended. Not that you’re

[00:45:31.70] spk_0:
nervous. Your face changed

[00:45:34.58] spk_1:
started to answer the where we could be.

[00:45:37.19] spk_0:
Who doesn’t like to imagine that future?

[00:45:43.99] spk_1:
Yeah, it was it was palpable. All right. All right. Are you comfortable leaving it there?

[00:45:46.59] spk_0:
I think so, I think so. What have we not covered that we need to cover for your listeners,

[00:45:52.59] spk_1:
you know that better than I

[00:45:54.68] spk_0:
for

[00:45:55.65] spk_1:
the place there at getting started.

[00:45:57.76] spk_0:
That’s fair. Look, you know what this is, this is the future that is written with many voices. And while I think I can be helpful, I don’t presume to be the voice that has all the answers I definitively don’t, I definitively don’t. And so what we have not covered is actually probably not known to me, but I dare say someone, someone out there does know that and they will likely be putting their voice up, which is exactly what we want.

[00:46:24.04] spk_1:
We will be bringing other voices as well. Alright,

[00:46:26.99] spk_0:
no doubt. Yeah,

[00:46:39.78] spk_1:
Patricia, she’s founder and Ceo of flourished Talent management Solutions and the company is at flourish tMS dot com. PCI thank you so much. Thank you very, very much.

[00:46:42.48] spk_0:
tony thank you. Thank you for opening up this space and having the conversation

[00:47:18.68] spk_1:
a pleasure. Uh it’s a responsibility and uh happy to live up to it. Try trying next week the activist activates activism with Amy sample ward if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez.

[00:47:23.33] spk_0:
Mark Silverman is

[00:47:51.68] spk_1:
our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great, Yeah, what?

Special Episode: POC Underrepresented In Nonprofit Leadership

My Guest:

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld: POC Underrepresented In Nonprofit Leadership

Sean Thomas-Breitfeld

The willingness and skills of people of color aren’t represented in leadership circles. That’s the main message coming out of Building Movement Project’s report, “Race To Lead Revisited.” We visit the report’s conclusions and recommendations with BMP’s co-director, Sean Thomas-Breitfeld.

 

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[00:01:48.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism, people of color underrepresented in non profit leadership. That’s the main message coming out of building movement projects Report. Race to Lead Revisited We visit the report’s conclusions and recommendations with BMPs co director Sean Thomas Brett felled, responsive by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO and by dot drives, raise more money, changed more lives for a free demo and free month. It’s my pleasure to welcome to the show. Sean Thomas Bright Felled. He is co director at the Building Moving Building Movement Project. He previously worked in various roles at community change, developing training programs for grassroots leaders and worked in the communications and policy departments where he coordinated online and grassroots advocacy efforts and lobbied on a range of issues including immigration reform, transportation, equity and anti poverty programs. Building movement project is at building movement, or GE, and at B L. D. I N G movement. John Thomas Bright felt Welcome to non profit radio

[00:01:51.64] spk_0:
Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:53.33] spk_1:
It’s supposed

[00:01:53.87] spk_0:
to be here with you.

[00:01:54.83] spk_1:
It’s good. It’s a pleasure. Thank you. So why don’t you start by describing the work at Building Movement Project?

[00:02:02.44] spk_0:
Sure, so building movement projects been around for over 20 years, and from our founding we’ve had three main areas of focus. One is what we call movement building, looking at how organizations collaborate, how nonprofit organizations can be part of movements for social change and social justice, and what it takes for organizations and non profit leaders to really be on the forefront of making big leading some big structural changes in our society. We’ve also looked at what we call a non profits and social change or service and social change because we think there is a particular role for human service organizations in bringing about structural and systemic change in our society and that that’s really important to support on. Also encourage organizations like that to get involved in advocacy. Listen to an uplift, the voice and on power of the communities that are being served, and then the third bucket of work has always focused on leadership, so recognizing that leading a nonprofit organization is a very hard job we’ve always looked at What does it take for leaders? But also, what does it take for non profit leadership? Thio really have aligned both the practices of leadership with the values that organizations hold. And so over the last several years, we’ve been particularly focused on issues of race and leadership in non profit organization. That’s what the race to lead work comes out of.

[00:03:41.14] spk_1:
Okay, right? And the This race to lead revisited report is really comparing a 2016 survey for the original race to lead with a 2019 survey for this report. Exactly.

[00:04:04.84] spk_0:
Yeah, so we surveyed people working in the nonprofit sector both in 2016 and 2019 on these issues of race and leadership. So this report race to lead revisited at some comparisons between the findings from 2016 and 2019 to see how the sector’s been evolving

[00:04:55.34] spk_1:
and you did have some new questions as well. We’ll have time to get to some of those, um, you talk about Well, first I got to say, I realize the contrast here I have long white hair and you have short, dark hair. We are. We know in the hair. We are. We’re not similar in hair. My God. Uh, yeah, OK, Sorry I couldn’t help notice. Um, you talk about we’re gonna have fun on non profit radio. I mean, it’s a serious subject, but we have fun nonetheless. So you talk about white advantage in the report versus white privilege? You mentioned white privilege once or twice, but predominantly. Talk about white advantage. What’s the What’s the difference there? What? What? What are you trying to say? A little different than the the more seems more common, you know, white privilege.

[00:05:05.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So what’s the term white advantage? What we’re trying to focus on is some of the structural advantages that accrue to non profit organizations based on, you know, multiple people in positions of power being white. So particularly thinking about the composition of boards and the composition of senior leadership teams. Um, because, you know, I think oftentimes the analysis is very individualistic, right? So, like, there’s an individual white person in the executive director role of the organization that only paints part of the picture on DSO we wanted to have a more complicated and nuanced analysis of what’s actually happened. An organization s O, that it became less about, like, the it one person at the top of organizational hierarchy. And think about it, uh, in a way that encompasses both the board leadership and senior staff.

[00:06:04.44] spk_1:
Okay. And then the structures as well, it seems thio less focused on an individual or individuals and mawr, uh, levers of power and processes policies.

[00:06:27.04] spk_0:
Exactly. And it also became a way thio understand and sort of unpack. Um, how, uh, sort of whiteness of organizations that, like in our sample, right, like, 45% of respondents work for organizations where both more than 75% of the board is white and more than 75% of staff and top leadership are white on. And, you know, I think that for me, that was actually somewhat startling in surprising um, And then we also saw that those organizations tend to have bigger budgets at least was being reported by the staff. Um but then, at the same time, we’re seeing that staff were reporting more negative experiences in those types of organizations compared to organizations with more diverse leadership on both the board and senior staff levels.

[00:07:29.64] spk_1:
And so the overall message that I got from this is that the power remains in boards and at the sea levels of nonprofits, and those are predominantly white. And that and that that really hasn’t changed from 2016 to 2019.

[00:07:35.24] spk_0:
Yeah, that hasn’t well, it’s hard to know because we actually didn’t ask the question in this way back in 2016. But I think that this, um, sort of puts our data in the context of some of the research that board source has done that shows that boards are overwhelmingly the majority of non profit boards are overwhelmingly white

[00:07:59.14] spk_1:
and also not reflecting the communities that they’re serving. Absolutely. Yeah,

[00:08:01.54] spk_0:
yeah, because I think what has happened is that the function of non profit boards very often is less a function of accountability to the organization’s constituency and mission on, because organizations often have a lot of responsibility for fundraising and raising the resource is for the organization to do its work. Um, that as a result of that sort of demand, organizations often have, um, prioritized recruiting from people who holds wealth in their communities and because of racial wealth gaps that tend to be white people

[00:08:41.04] spk_1:
on dhe. That’s recruiting for both leadership and volunteer position board with talking about boards and you make it very clear we’re talking about boards as well as C suite. You know, CEO, executive director level.

[00:08:54.14] spk_0:
Absolutely.

[00:08:56.24] spk_1:
So let’s go into the three. I guess main conclusions that the report identifies first one is that things really haven’t changed that much. We’ve already alluded to it. Things haven’t changed that much in the three years.

[00:09:14.44] spk_0:
Yeah, and you know, I’m not sure how surprising that should be. Um, for our sector. You know, I think the change is often particularly in organizations. When we’re talking about organizations where we’re talking about the composition of the staff, that kind of change is incremental, right? I think that what has shifted is that, particularly in the last year is much more consciousness raising much more awareness on the part of organizations that these imbalances, these inequities exist and needs to be addressed. Um, but recognizing that there is a problem is not the same thing is taking action to address the problem.

[00:10:18.34] spk_1:
So you are seeing mawr alright, consciousness raising awareness. It seems like predominantly because of the diversity equity and inclusion work that Ah lot of organizations have done. But it’s just sort of, you know, I’m I gleaned from the reports, just sort of scratching the surface. I mean, ah, lot of it is trainings that raise awareness, but we’re not seeing much action flowing from that consciousness raising.

[00:10:23.84] spk_0:
Yeah, And so one example of the increased consciousness was that in both 2016 and 2019 we asked survey respondents what impact to their race had had on their career advancement. And, uh, for white respondents back in 2016 roughly half indicated that their race. They recognize that the race had a positive impact on their career advancement. So this sort of classic recognition of white privilege that increased to two thirds of the white sample in 29 so one from half to two thirds. So you know that is e think progress, right? In terms of like people having a recognition and understanding that white privileges riel and that it’s positively the benefits of that privilege are accruing to white people in nonprofit organization. Um however, the same question also revealed that back in 2016 a third roughly of people of color felt that their own race have negatively impacted their career advancement, and that then increased almost basically half off the sample of people of color in 2019. So the increased consciousness is both, you know, I think leading people to recognize the ways that they have been disadvantaged as well as for white people the way that they have been advantaged on DSO. You know, we’re still left with this challenge. This problem. That race is clearly having an impact on people’s advancement. And so it needs to be addressed in organizations in ways that I don’t think training is sufficient. Thio thick

[00:12:04.14] spk_1:
right? But you acknowledge consciousness, raising an awareness that that is the first step. But we have a lot more, a lot, a lot further to go. I mean, you know, it’s just

[00:12:14.61] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:12:50.24] spk_1:
widely recognized that, you know, you don’t just do trainings a couple of trainings over six months and then check your box. You know d e. I is covered. Let’s move on, Thio. Let’s move on to the gala. You know it za process. It’s a journey, you know we’ve had other guests say the same thing. It takes time. Thio, uh, change the policies, the practices, the traditions Even if they’re not written down, that our advantage ing white folks over people of color, This takes time. But you gotta You’ve got to start somewhere.

[00:12:52.74] spk_0:
Yes, and I think consciousness raising is is an important and legitimate starting point.

[00:13:42.54] spk_1:
Right? And we’re just getting started, okay? It’s time for a break. Turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know this turn to is led by former journalists. So you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships, they’re gonna help you when you want to be heard so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners was an editor of the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know the non profit space they’re at turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to P. O. C. Underrepresented in non profit leadership. Are you going to do this in three years again?

[00:13:45.94] spk_0:
It’s a very good question. You know, it’s hard

[00:13:48.15] spk_1:
to

[00:13:48.28] spk_0:
know, uh, in terms of, like, capacity funding, all of those things um, but yeah, I think that it seems worthwhile to keep revisiting thes issues, given the pace of change. Um, having been pretty slow just in the time that we’ve been collecting this data.

[00:14:24.14] spk_1:
All right, Um, anything else you want to say about you know, how the the findings from 2016 are pretty similar? Uh, yeah. Continue through to 2019 before we go on to the next. Well,

[00:14:24.49] spk_0:
sure. I think the reason that we felt like it was worth restating on pointing out the similarity in in terms of the findings between 2016 and 2019 was because, um, you know, from our perspective, it was really important to state very clearly to the sector. But there are people of color who are in the pipeline that the pipeline is not necessarily the problem. Uh, there’s, I think, different metaphors that people have used unpack and try to understand what the problem is of why we’re not seeing more representative leadership at the top levels of nonprofit organizations. And our view has just been that it’s not a pipeline issue per se. There are people of color who have the skills training credentials to be in those top roles, but they face racialized barriers to actually moving into those top jobs to being hired for those top jobs. And so we just felt like it was important to remind the sector of that finding, Um and sort of not lapse back into, ah narrative that, like we need to train more people of color because somehow people of color are not ready toe lead. People of color are ready to lead, but are often too often not given the opportunity.

[00:15:38.84] spk_1:
Not only have the skill sets already, but are willing to, in fact, what willing Thio want. Thio want to advance the leadership in greater numbers than the and the white respondents?

[00:15:51.94] spk_0:
Absolutely.

[00:15:53.03] spk_1:
E guess. There’s narrative that, you know there’s a lack of interest in in people of color advancing toe leadership. But you’ve dashed that.

[00:16:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that part of the reason that’s important is because if people hold this mental model that who wants to be a leader is, uh, not a person of color, then they’re going to ignore the leadership potential of people of color in their organization.

[00:16:26.64] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s very convenient. Well, you know, the folks of color don’t really aspire to leadership. So no need to consider them. So Okay, so you’ve you’ve dashed that it’s not so in two respects. It’s not a pipeline issue. The skills air there and the willingness Is there a ZX? Well,

[00:16:36.24] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:16:42.44] spk_1:
desire Thio advance and to lead. Okay, Um right. So remember your second main main conclusion, I guess, is there is white advantage. We were talking around it. Now we come right out and say there is white advantage in the nonprofit sector.

[00:18:59.24] spk_0:
There is. And, um, you know, I think that the the white advantage takes multiple forms, right? So I think that there have been over the last several months Mawr written about like, what happened? What’s called now? Philanthropic redlining, right, that organizations that are led by people of color, particularly black led organizations, are don’t get access to the same kind of resource is as the white led organizations focused on or serving in communities of color. And so there’s really interesting research both from organizations like Abssi A ZX, well as echoing green and bridge span that really dug into that funding disadvantage. And I think that our data also showed similar findings, particularly when it comes to, for instance, e. D s of color. And this was reported on Maurin a report from based on the 2016 data but E d s of color feeling like they don’t have, they don’t get grants of comparable size to peer organization or that they don’t have access Thio relationships with funders. And so those kinds of advantages in terms of like, who funders trust who funders will give bigger grants thio all of those benefits than accrue to white led organizations that then create this financial gap between organizations, nonprofit organizations based on who’s in positions of power in that institution. And so other ways that the white advantage showed up were in terms of the sort of composition of organizations and the greater comfort that white people, uh, seem tohave in. Those organizations, for instance, on questions like Do people feel like they have a voice in their organization for people working in white, dominant organizations were both the board and senior staff are more than 75% white. That’s where we saw the biggest gaps between people of color and whites in terms of their their agreement with that statement, right? And that gap decreases as you have mawr diverse organizations. And it’s also interesting to note that the average the mean increases. So both people of color and white respondents are more likely to say they have a. They have a voice in their organizations when they work for POC lead groups. So if you know, funders want to invest in organizations that are cultivating that kind of leader full ecosystem inside of their organization that, you know, make it possible for staff to feel like they have a voice and can help to set the direction for the organization, then you know foundations would be wise to really take a hard look at their own investment and the composition of organizations that they’ve been funding on. DSI. You know, like, are these organizations largely white run or are they POC lead on. And if there are largely white one, they should start investing in more organizations that are POC ledge.

[00:20:06.94] spk_1:
You identify five opportunities which we’ll get to, and one of those is put your money where your mouth is. You just say, put your, uh, you

[00:20:08.83] spk_0:
know, money

[00:20:54.04] spk_1:
where mouth is for sure. Yeah, I mean that’s a critical lever of power is funding for any anyone, whether it’s whether it’s corporate or non profit access to capital access to markets. Um, you know, what I thought was really interesting is, um, when you were identifying whether an organization was white lead or POC lead you, you chose as a threshold for white lead, whether more than 75% whether the Board of Leadership is more than 75% white. But then for for people of color lead, the threshold was just 50%. Is that because there just aren’t enough that are that are at the 75% level? So you had to reduce the yet to reduce the threshold to define it as person of color lead? Was that the reason?

[00:21:02.45] spk_0:
Yes. I mean, I think that it reflects the sort of composition of the sector, right. So 45% of respondents reported working for organizations where more than 75% of the board and senior staff were white on then it only 14% of respondents reporting working for organizations where it was over 50% of board and senior staff where people of color, you know, like it’s

[00:21:30.25] spk_1:
hard to have

[00:21:30.98] spk_0:
a comparison between Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:34.02] spk_1:
75% shoulder, 75% for PFC. Lead was gonna be too small a sample You

[00:21:40.57] spk_0:
a

[00:21:41.99] spk_1:
handful of Okay, uh, e suspected. Okay. Um, yeah. The experience was a little more about the experience. How people experience how people of color experience work in a in a white led organization.

[00:21:58.84] spk_0:
Well, I have to say, this was surprised, Not surprising. But it was interesting that the data was so clear, um, that the these racial gaps were so much larger for respondents working for white run organizations compared toa the POC led groups. And, um, you know, I think that it reflects what we’ve been hearing from the focus groups that we’ve been doing across the country in terms of the frustration, particularly on the part of people of color working in organizations that, um, you know, I think often feel somewhat alienating. And where people feel like they, um their leadership potential is not recognized or supported on dso. It was just a really, uh it was nice to have the data show, uh, and really reflect what we’ve been hearing anecdotally through focus groups and interviews around the country,

[00:22:59.54] spk_1:
You mentioned three organizations that have contributed to this work. One of them was bridge span. And then what were the other to save them. Save them a little slower theater, too.

[00:23:03.21] spk_0:
Sure. So a few months ago, bridge span and echoing green partnered on a report that looked at the going echoing green,

[00:23:14.57] spk_1:
echoing green

[00:24:50.44] spk_0:
green. Yeah, they partnered toe look at the funding that had accrued to organization organizational leaders who had gone through echoing Green’s programs. And so they were able to then really track and demonstrate that black leaders compared toa white leaders who had gone through the same kind of leadership development programs were getting very different levels of financial support on So that report came out at, you know, the earlier in the spring and last winter, an organization called Absi, which is the Organization for African Americans in philanthropy. On DSO, the acronym is a B E, and they put out a report looking at what they call the philanthropic redlining, this phenomenon of financial support from foundations accruing to white led organizations rather than to POC lead or black led organizations. So they use this terminology of redlining because it’s evocative of historical policy that led to very dramatic differences in terms of what sort of development and investment was possible, uh, in cities and neighborhoods based on this policy of redlining. And their point is that the imbalances, the inequities and where philanthropic dollars flow leads toa completely different prospects for organizations. And because some organizations grow because they get the funding and other organizations sort of. Whether on the bun

[00:25:06.34] spk_1:
isn’t the large majority of the smaller organizations I think you’re special was under a million dollars aren’t Isn’t the majority of those POC lead?

[00:25:08.44] spk_0:
It was, Yeah, it was striking to see that a much larger share of POC led organizations had budgets under a million

[00:25:30.34] spk_1:
dollars compared to, for instance, what led organizations? And, ah, large, large majority of those are a million dollars or under in funding or annual budget.

[00:25:31.18] spk_0:
Yes, okay, yeah, in terms of the annual budget

[00:26:27.24] spk_1:
annual budget. Okay, time for our last break. Dot drives drives engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives walks you through donor engagement. It’s a tool that’s simple, affordable and focuses you on building donor relationships and trust. There’s a free demo, and for listeners a free first month. Go to the listener landing page at tony dot Emma slash dot We’ve got but loads more time for POC, underrepresented in non profit leadership. And then the third main point is that d I. Efforts are widespread, you say, and their effectiveness is uncertain, I would say, but but their effectiveness is uncertain. You’re a little more optimistic. Um, so, yeah, we were scratching the surface of this before, but you know, say same or about what’s being done, but what the limitations of it are.

[00:26:35.74] spk_0:
Well, first off, I think it’s important to acknowledge that three quarters of the sample reported that their organizations were doing something related to diversity equity inclusion. And so the ubiquity of D I efforts is, you know, I think good. And I think it’s a relatively new phenomenon, right? Like it’s become the topic at a lot of conferences over the past five years. And so all of which is to say that like organizations are getting started right now, Um, and maybe it’s long overdue, but this is a moment when organizations are getting started. I think that the challenge, the frustration, particularly on the part of people of color. And the younger staff of, you know, diverse diversity of younger staff is that I think for far too often it feels like organizational checklist. It feels like a sort of double. Organizations are saying the right things, but not actually changing anything about their recruitment practices or internal hiring and promotion strategy. So, yeah, I think that that is the the frustrating in that, like the ubiquity does not equal impact.

[00:28:43.94] spk_1:
I just want to remind listeners the report is called Race to Lead Revisited and you can get it at building movement dot or ge. All right, Sean, how do you feel about talking? Oh, there’s there’s a quote. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You You pepper the report with quotes in the margin on Dhe there. Ah, lot of them struck me that. I’m just going to read one that was probably half a dozen or so that, you know, sort of stopped me a little bit. But, uh, Pakistani woman, I don’t believe I’m taking us seriously in the workplace because I am a young woman of color. I often question things which doesn’t always go over well in majority white organizations. I’ve been used as a token brown person that za harsh reality Thio Thio read and for her to admit in a survey that, you know, I’m a token. Um So I thought the quotes were very evocative.

[00:28:55.84] spk_0:
Well, yeah, thanks. I mean, we we really think it’s important to balance the quantitative data with, you know, hundreds upon hundreds of right and responses from survey respondents and then also the focus groups that we do. We also gain a ton of insights from those conversations as well.

[00:29:16.34] spk_1:
You feel OK, go into the five opportunities or is there Is there mawr anything more you wanna bring out about the the report itself? Well, this is part of the report, but about the conclusions, conclusions and findings.

[00:29:40.34] spk_0:
Well, I guess I would just add in terms of the sort of d I and, uh, there’s the both the skepticism, but also the impact, right? I think that, um, there’s, you know, I think there’s a lot of skepticism about training, often times. But our data did show that for reserving respondents that reported that their organization trained on a variety of topics. They had more positive views on the impact of training on their organization. I think that just speaks to the importance and need for organizations have, like, multifaceted well around D. I initiatives so that training is not again, like just the check box on or sort of like. Okay, we did the training on white privilege, and so we’re sort of done that the training is a way of both sparking but also sustaining critical conversations in organizations. And that’s why it’s useful for organizations to do training repeatedly and on a variety of topics.

[00:30:59.64] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it was. It was forearm. Or if organizations had had training on four or more topics than both white, the white respondents and the people, people of color respondents, um, felt it was it was more advantageous. So they got there was more valuable training than if it was three or fewer. Could you just take off a couple of different topics that that folks should be looking to training? I mean, not not exhaustive, but you know, what are some of the some of the topics that people should be thinking about training wise?

[00:31:07.27] spk_0:
Sure, yeah. So eso in terms of the topics that we tested for in the survey people indicated that whether the organization had done training on white privileged, specifically whether they had done training on implicit bias because that is a concept that I think has gained mawr currency in the sector. Structural racism, for instance. Um, like do people think of racism as just about interpersonal dynamics or as or as the result of structural, um, and systemic forces that are being replicated by policy? A. ZX well, as implicitly, um, also racial trauma and healing. I think it’s a training topic that is becoming more popular and developed, so there’s a variety of topics, and I think the important thing is just for organizations to be open to having and doing training on a wide variety of topics.

[00:32:07.74] spk_1:
And again, the more topics, the more valuable people will feel. Three outcomes are, um So let’s go to the opportunities. Then why don’t you once you start us off?

[00:32:19.04] spk_0:
Sure.

[00:32:20.17] spk_1:
I’m sure. Wait. I put you on the spot. Do you know that you may not have him off the top of your head? I have notes I haven’t written down, so I don’t need thio Put you on the spot memorized? I don’t know do you?

[00:32:32.07] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve got it.

[00:32:33.81] spk_1:
Okay. Okay.

[00:32:47.44] spk_0:
First in the first one was focused on structures as well as the experiences of staff. Right on DSO. You know, I think it’s pretty straightforward, but I think the the reason that we felt felt like it was really important toe lift up lived experience of staff working in organizations is because of what we saw in terms of those experience questions, right? Like, do people feel they have a voice in their organizations or not? Right. We also thought it was important to point out that policies have to actually be in force, right? Like organizations can’t just say this is our policy. But if people don’t see evidence that actual behavior and practices air changing as a result of the policy, um, then you know, I think there are real questions about whether that has real impact.

[00:33:22.08] spk_1:
There is, as

[00:33:23.32] spk_0:
we said earlier,

[00:33:35.84] spk_1:
you’re not walking the talk. Then if you have ah, policy on anti discrimination and someone says something derogatory and it doesn’t get dealt with according to the policy. Yeah, that’s a joke. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:33:39.94] spk_0:
Um, we also thought it was important toe, you know, really, focus on the funding dynamics, so particularly for grantmaking organizations. But put your money where, like your mouth is essentially right. Like there are increasing number of foundations, that air saying that the I is important. Ah, nde sort of signaling to their grantees. But those organizations need to take d. I seriously need to diversify their boards and staff things like that. But if the foundations have not taken similar steps, if the foundations have not to diversify their own or internal institution, or the foundations have not sort of critically examined their portfolio of grants like are there racial disparities in terms of what the amounts of funding, which organizations get access to funding that sort of thing? All of that is about foundations being very serious on reflect about being reflective in terms of their own commitments to D. I.

[00:35:24.04] spk_1:
And you have reflecting reflecting your community, which we touched on a little bit, that that was really striking, how you know it’s intuitive. I mean, I realized it, but to see the numbers of, um, Whitelighter organizations that are serving POC communities, eyes like two thirds or something, I think, um, it’s startling that leadership does not reflect the communities that they’re serving, and that includes the board. I mean, you you wanna have voices from the from the folks you’re serving contributing to your contributing to your you’re you’re major decisions a ZX the board should be doing

[00:35:28.54] spk_0:
Yeah, and again, like, as I said earlier, like, if organizations see the function of the board as about accountability as about setting the direction for the organization, then I think those organizations will see the need and value of having a board that is reflective of the community that’s being served. But if organizations have the sort of rationale for maintaining the board is to have access to people with wealth and connections, and there’s obvious reasons that organizations go that route. Then they’re going to stack. They’re bored with wealthy people in their communities on again because of racism. Those wealthy people are not likely to be people of color from the constituency that’s being served

[00:36:15.53] spk_1:
and your last one responsibility and results.

[00:36:26.79] spk_0:
Yeah, I think our sense was that organizations air pushed to track a lot of things nowadays and so, like what gets measured is often what then matters. And so our sense was that organizations should be very clear about what their commitments are going to be to race equity. And, um, you know, really track those commitments and then track the results of that come out of, like, what kind of organizational change strategies they pursue. And so, you know, if organizations they’re doing like an annual review or annual reports, are they reporting on their goals and objectives around race equity? That is one way to sort of ensure that organizations are staying on track on dhe, that its multiyear commitment

[00:37:13.58] spk_1:
it’s gonna take

[00:37:14.84] spk_0:
multiple years of change.

[00:37:38.03] spk_1:
Uh, you know, just pay attention. You can move the needle on things. If you start paying attention to them, you’re saying, if you measure it, you’ll you’ll you’ll be. You’ll be accountable to it. So high attention to it. If your If your statements say that you value racial equity, then measure it, hold yourself accountable and commit to those years of change.

[00:37:41.23] spk_0:
Yeah, and I think it’s even better if organizations do that. Make that accountability public, eso that they’re the sort of reporting is to their staff. It’s to their board. It’s to their community so that, like the statements of the organizations stand with. For instance, black lives matter, then backed up with organizations being able to say. And here’s how we lived into that commitment. Here are the things that we did over the past year that made that riel,

[00:38:10.82] spk_1:
Sean, anything, anything at all that we didn’t cover that you want to talk about.

[00:38:16.52] spk_0:
Um, no, I think we covered a lot.

[00:38:34.22] spk_1:
Okay, well, we did. You know, it’s not profit radio. We cover a lot of ground, but, you know, we can only scratch the surface. I mean, we cover a lot, but what you want to read the details, So just get the damn thing. Uh, the report again is, um race toe lead racing. No race race, the lead race, the lead be visiting

[00:38:38.27] spk_0:
the lead revisited.

[00:38:49.92] spk_1:
Used to lead you visited. You’ll find it at building movement or GE. That’s where you’ll find building movement project. And Sean Thomas Bright felled. Who is co director, right, Sean, Thank you very much. Thank you.

[00:38:52.07] spk_0:
Thanks so much for having me

[00:39:32.72] spk_1:
absolutely appreciate your time. Thank you. Reminder were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives raise more money changed more lives. Tony dot Emma slash dot for a free demo and a free month, Our creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy. This music is by Scott Stein and with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for May 1, 2020: Real Estate & Racial-Equity DEI

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Jane Brody: Real Estate

How have markets been impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vicus Partners.

 

 

 

Tristan Penn: Racial-Equity DEI
Tristan Penn shares how Coronavirus has disproportionately hurt Black and Indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your nonprofit. Tristan is NTEN‘s community engagement and equity manager. (This is part of our 20NTC coverage.)

 

 

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[00:00:12.24] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:23.24] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is our first ever show in 487 that is not produced in studio. I put it together using a dizzy audacity and zoom. Let’s see how I did. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I throw is Anthill asthma. If I saw that you missed today’s show Real estate, how have markets being impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vikas Partners and Rachel Equity D I. Justin Pen shares how Corona virus has disproportionately hurt black and indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your non profit trust. In his end, tens community engagement and equity manager, this is part of our 20 and TC coverage. Tony Steak, too. Take a breath, were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is real estate. It’s a real pleasure to welcome to the show. Jane Brody She is executive director at Vikas Partners in New York City. Before Vikas, she helped launch a mentoring program serving over 10,000 Children and a foster care program to help over 8000 teenagers in the system make the transition to independence. She’s been a consultant to Ben and Jerry’s UNICEF, the American Red Cross, Coca Cola and the Special Olympics. She’s done stand up comedy company is at Vikas partners dot com. Jane Brody Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:29.84] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Great to be here.

[00:02:31.52] spk_1:
Real pleasure to have you tell me about your stand up comedy. I’ve done some of that. What’s what were your gigs? Where did you do?

[00:02:38.54] spk_2:
Well, I took a little class, and I always like to do stuff that kind of scares me a little bit and challenges may. So then, after I did the class and we did kind of Gotham startup, I did a couple open mic nights and I was invited back, and I liked it a lot. But apparently the owner of the club who booked me said, You have to bring 10 friends next time and next time. So I didn’t wanna have to, like, burden people with asking them to continue to watch me and follow May. And I realized very quickly that my humor was very regional, like I understood, you know, New York comedy specific. But it’s much started to be able to be funny and all the markets and how good the major comics are about sort of national humor, right? I enjoy it. I recently just improv class because I like doing those kinds of things. I think it makes you fresh and it challenges you.

[00:04:14.57] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, I’ve done stand up comedy and improv. I took a bunch of improv classes that the Upright Citizens Brigade and I took some stand up comedy classes with this Manhattan comedy school. Um, I’ve played Gotham, but only, you know, like you. It sounds like I do the new talent shows where Oh, you got a visitor there. Okay. Um, do talent shows? Yeah. We bring hers. Brings you gotta bring 10 people or 12 people or 15 people or something in orderto in orderto Get your stage time. Yeah, but I agree improv especially. You know, it’s very good for speaking confidence. I loved it. I think it helps me a lot. I like those. Did you did you try regional comedy outside New York? Is that how you?

[00:04:19.04] spk_2:
No. But we discovered that afford median income. Who’s been doing it for 15 years? And he’s told us to the story how he lived in his pinto, basically and traveled from city to city, Pittsburgh, all the small markets and when market his his bits than his time and then he’d go to the next city in the next city. I was like, I’m not gonna do that.

[00:05:19.94] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s hard to. It’s hard to make money at stand up comedy very few people to, and it’s true. You know, I’ve never even thought of it, cause I the only place I’ve ever done stand up is in New York City. I’ve never wanted to be regional or national, but absolutely true. I don’t I’m not sure people would get me outside outside the clothes. Maybe Westchester that would be about as far. Um, right. So So let’s talk about real estate. And, you know, our listeners are small and mid sized nonprofits. Um, now you you know, the New York City New your New York City market Are you able to generalize like to the t broader than that when we talk about

[00:05:22.42] spk_2:
course. Definitely. I think the same. Planning things and considerations Air true for nonprofits nationally. And I on the international board with other tenant rep brokers internationally. So I always used to having conversations.

[00:05:38.41] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, um and so what are we seeing? Real estate wise around the pandemic. What’s the impact

[00:05:47.80] spk_2:
of certainly some things that you would think there are a lot more sub lets that are hitting the market transactions air down. In New York City of, for instance, it’s been down 40% in the first quarter. I think that it’s gonna be a very rich landlord reaching for us market more than you know, a tighter market where Layla is gonna be a little more difficult. So they’ll be more flexibility

[00:06:16.90] spk_1:
when we come out of this. And people are looking again for real estate. That’s encouraging. On the 10 inside that there’s gonna be that kind of flexibility. Like you said, you know, landlords reaching out, you think.

[00:06:23.87] spk_2:
And also I would say the other great. A huge amount of space that will be available will be retail. It’s gonna be a lot longer for retail to come back because of restaurants and all the other stores. That just a change of pattern of how people can access those spaces is gonna be very different.

[00:06:44.24] spk_1:
Um, when we you know, if any organization is thinking about changing real estate or just use, I guess maybe even just using their existing real estate when when we end up going back to offices. What other considerations there? How do you think things have changed in terms of office space usage?

[00:07:03.50] spk_2:
I think some of the considerations of the large brand tech companies, household names, air changing the amount of physical space per employee so typically was 175 square feet per employee. Now it’s going up to 300 square feet. Does that mean that they’ll be taking more space? I don’t think necessarily. I think people will be varying worked times and changing how many people can use space to a different time. They’ll also be technological impacts. For instance, people will be relying more on their handheld devices than that, necessarily having centralized computer systems, touch lists, entry to spaces, booking of conference rooms, anything where there’s high touch experiences. I think also just the way that people interact. There won’t be as many large group meetings, and the way that we work together will be very different. For a while, you

[00:08:06.40] spk_1:
mentioned booking conference rooms. What you mean? Like, if there’s a, uh, there’s booking a reservation system outside the room and lots of people touch it, is that

[00:08:16.84] spk_2:
it actually, or, you know, touchless check in. Sometimes people hand you and I have had to check in when you go into a space for security. So I think some of those things will be rethought and they’ll be more innovations along the way that we work together in a virtual way. And I think people’s ability to work at home and the office will be expanded. We’ve all adjusted, and we might have several waves of what’s gonna come ahead. We don’t really know.

[00:08:44.04] spk_1:
You know

[00:08:44.26] spk_2:
what I think we’re all anxious to get back to work and be together.

[00:08:47.85] spk_1:
You said, um, typical was 175 square feet per per employee. I don’t that’s that. That sounds like a lot, but is that the average is the average cubicle 175 square feet of space?

[00:09:26.94] spk_2:
Uh, roughly. I mean, there’s lots of different ways they call it bench seating. If you’ve seen lots of staff in small desks in front of them, that could be a slow is 100 per person or 75 square feet per person. I think it’s gonna be more generous than it was before, and we’d have large bullpen seating with lots of people in rows. I think that’s gonna look different. And also, I think they’ll be more spacing between desks and the physical nous of space changed.

[00:09:33.85] spk_1:
Yeah, I e. You know, you said, you think it’ll it could go as high as like 300 square feet per person, which is almost almost double the 1 75

[00:09:43.10] spk_3:
I’m

[00:09:50.74] spk_2:
not sure are non profit clients conduce that as as generously, Yeah, but that’s what I’m getting at right. I think it depends on what are non province use the space for. So that’s part of determining what the next steps for the non profits are. You do you have to have a large H Q like mothership. Do you need small offices? And in the various communities you’re serving, what will be the physical footprint of the space that you need to have some fulfill? Your mission, I think, is kind of part of the new sort of long term strategic planning into Cove it and in general, for non profits.

[00:12:18.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice oven experienced partner You, JJ, Doom and Affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com. Now back to real estate with Jane Brody, and I see I fix that mistake with Jane Brody’s name. This audacity is so you can get so compulsive with it. It’s so alluring to take out every, um and on then. But if I if I take all those out, you’re gonna wonder. Who the hell am I listening to? Where’s tony? Sums and ours and his mistakes. So I’m not taking out everything. That is a slight imperfection. Some some things. You know what? Some things have got to stay the same. Every damn thing cannot change that. We’re accustomed to its It’s doing settling. I mean, there’s enough changes already to non profit radio. I’m keeping in the arms in the eyes and the okays. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I’m keeping those in, um, there. I’m keeping that in. Some things have just gotta remain the same. I am not perfect in the way I talk. And by now, after 487 shows, you don’t expect me to be so the hell with audacity, ease, intricacies and perfect ability. I’m not taking advantage of it all anyway. It’s time for a break. No. Anyway, here’s more back to real estate with Jane Brody. When should we start talking to our existing landlord about whether we’re going to stay or about renewing? How early should that conversation start?

[00:12:34.84] spk_2:
It’s really two pronged approach. A lot of people think Oh, I haven’t talked to my landlord and they go towards very close to the end of the least. That’s not really the best model because it leaves you kind of trapped, dealing directly with your Lambert. What the best approach is a year, two years, a year and 1/2 before your lease is expiring, kind of figuring out what you really need the space or and what the purpose and function of your space. You have the right spaces. It’s the right size, or you’re in the right market in the right community and then engaging a broker which has no cost to you. The commission’s air baked into the deal, and what you do is you have your broker find you at least two or three options that you like. So you go on on tours, understand the market, see what your space would cost across the street, in the same area you like to be in, you get a negotiated, non binding letter of intent that your broker can work with you on. And then once you have a deal in place, then you can go to your existing landlord. We call it kind of a stocking horse in the trade, which is here’s something that I could get if I have to move, can you beat it? can you match it? What can you do with this existing opportunity against what? Staying in place? Most people want to renew and stay in place. And your broker can also negotiate that with your landlord. So you wanna have sort of two tracks. The best is at least a year and 1/2 a year into place because it takes probably a month to find the right space. You negotiate the letters of intent, take you at least a month to do the lease, and then if you have a build out, that’s four or five months. So that’s a good amount of time. Plus, everybody has Stakeholders may have you the board involvement the various teams in your organization. Does this fit the needs of the organization, and then you have to kind of engage everyone in the process.

[00:14:56.64] spk_1:
So where you call a stalking horse, I will just call leverage, right? You want to have. You won’t have another deal in hand that you can present to your current landlord and say, Look, you know, I could move, but everybody knows you don’t really want to move right. I mean, it’s a big hassle moving, sure, but you want to have some leverage over the over the person? Absolutely. So I can see why you got to start, like a year and 1/2 in advance,

[00:15:19.11] spk_2:
or I just want to make one other point. Tony. Some people are afraid to challenge their landlord because my landlord’s so great. He’s been a donor to my organization, and I think, uh, I think sometimes nonprofits are intimidated by that, But I people very much treated as separation of church in ST and ST you make a donation to something you believe in and on the other part of the isle you can certainly negotiate a least one has nothing to do with the other.

[00:15:31.87] spk_1:
And you made the point that a broker is free to the tenant, right?

[00:16:13.13] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, that Brooklyn tony that that works from a from a Do you else to end point is commission is baked into the transaction, and it’s a very old schtum. So in every transaction, there’s a landlord broker, an attendant rap broker. If you don’t have a tenant rep broker, and basically you’re just handing the condition completely over to the landlord broker, and I like to kind of talk about in terms of the wars. Wouldn’t wanna have one lawyer kind of representing both sides of the equation. You can. So you look for somebody who understands your work in your mission and can act on your behalf and, well, looking at the same data. So that’s another thing people think. Well, let me hire Let me get three or four people running around for me, but it doesn’t really work that well because we all look a co star, which is a proprietary database that we all subscribed. Teoh.

[00:16:31.94] spk_1:
Okay, so everybody’s got access to the same listings. What? You said that in any community, that’s nation

[00:16:37.28] spk_2:
yet it’s national, its international. Okay,

[00:16:39.91] spk_1:
okay. All right, So now all right. So we know we should start, like, maybe two years, a year and 1/2 in advance of the expiration of our least. So now what do we need to be thinking about in terms of our new space Or, you know, our existing space?

[00:16:55.26] spk_2:
Well, one thing that I think is really important is a good match with right land board. So I have just a couple of examples that really kind of illustrate this one is this organization I worked with? They they, uh, took in donations for babies. 03 year olds. They would get strollers and books and clothing, toys, and people would come with you could imagine garbage bags full of treasures. And then they would come to the building full of all their stuff in their hands, cribs everything and come into the lobby and go up in the elevators and make the donation on. And then the clients would come with not themselves or just their baby. They would bring five or six people because, you know, day care is a huge challenge for low income families. So a particular Landler didn’t like all that additional foot traffic,

[00:17:47.69] spk_1:
right? Probably bags of stuff being hold onto the elevator to Right?

[00:19:07.24] spk_2:
Right. So you’re crowding my other tenants. You’re crowding my elevator, you’re holding things up. So I was able to find them a landlord that adores what they do. They actually make donations, they help them with all kinds of support. And I recently ran into the landlord at an event, and they’re like Jane finding more tenants like this. We love what they dio and I have another case where I worked with this organization called Chess in the Schools. Wonderful organization had been in the building 17 years, and they had this, like, huge 12,000 foot space that was shaped like a pizza pot. I mean, how somebody designed this thing with slices as the various zones, but it was really expensive rent for them. They had downsized, but they had this, like, really strange requirement that once a week, 80 young people high school kids came to play chest, so they needed a certain kind of space. The landlord worked so hard to keep them in the building. He he helped me find the space within the building that was 4500 feet, renovated the space for them. And then there was no lag way leaving their old space and moving out of two years earlier their existing lease and gave them a brand new lease going 10 years, four. Very unusual. So if you get lucky with those kind of connections, so I always try to find landlords that are the right match for clients, I think it makes a big difference,

[00:19:28.74] spk_1:
and you have to be upfront about what your work is so if there are gonna be families coming through, You know, with kids, you know, the class A space landlord, you know, may not want that because they don’t want Children in the lobbies or if it’s gonna be folks with disabilities. And you know, some landlords may not be at all sensitive to that, and others may be completely embracing of that. So yes, true, we’ll be upfront about what kind of traffic you’re gonna create if it’s not strictly an office environment.

[00:20:13.39] spk_2:
And that’s really educating your broker to really understand your organization. And I kind of think of it as kind of putting that mission on my back and trying to, like, think about what that executive director or board member needs. I’m working with an adoption agency right now and one of the things that was really important to them. And I really thought a lot about this when I when I speak about this particular client, is they have birth mothers who are, you know, young women. Sometimes there are, you know, compromise situations. They’re kind of a lot of anxiety around giving your baby up for adoption and going to like a mainstream building where you’ve got turnstiles. Intense security screenings would be could be intimidating. So finding them a sort of quieter block building where they could walk in themselves, created in the best way. And also there’s confidentiality issues. There’s programming. So how can it be very front facing an appropriate for that particular client and meets the needs of the organization?

[00:21:14.64] spk_1:
Okay, yeah, I see. Just maybe just even giving their name at a security desk is, I don’t know, intimidating or off putting to a clientele like that

[00:22:20.64] spk_2:
or shelling a driver’s license or so really kind of matching what you’re trying to accomplish in this space. And I also think understanding what you’re using the space for Israeli import, you know? Are you doing classrooms or you’re doing training? Are you doing touchdowns? Space for your feet fieldworkers? I had one particular client who ah, was an arts organization. After School Arts Organization. It was created in the seventies when all the arts organizations were taken. All the art teachers were taken out of the school systems, so these two former teachers started organization and they hire freelance artists to come into schools, you know, lovely idea. Filling a need and then the schools would contract for these part time workers. This and they kind of grew the organization unwto through little tiny apartments that they were renting in the community in the city. So this executive director said, let me create one central place for the organization, a place where the artist can come, receive their materials, have training, have collaboration. And it’s really changed the environment of the organization and the way that the employees and the artist kind of bond on having a ton, equal footing and a connection in a place to be together.

[00:22:44.04] spk_1:
All right, Jane, um, so let’s talk about some common mistakes that you see that non profits, you know, can hopefully avoid,

[00:23:27.94] spk_2:
I would say typically timing, not having enough period of time to think about your space. So we talked about a year and 1/2 or two years. I’ve had people call May I’ve got a month left to my least. What should I dio? Okay, that’s certainly not doesn’t put you in the driver’s seat, right? Making sure that you have all the stakeholders involved in the process. The development people, your board, your your staff, understanding what you’re trying to accomplish in your space search being isolated and just working through the operations people. That’s really important. Another important part is that you could afford the space and that it fits with your budget. I mean, certainly Cove. It has been a real lesson and understanding the financial impact of things like rent to those air key mistakes.

[00:23:44.91] spk_1:
These mistakes, we’re gonna be reduced because we’re raising people’s consciousness about about them. All right, Um, all right, so I mean, I love it. You hit this a couple times, but you said that you can’t stress enough the importance of starting early. So you you have time. It’s not a crisis. You’re not trying to find space and negotiate a deal in three or four months, which may not even be doable,

[00:25:35.69] spk_2:
I think also, I want to mention just another example. I worked with a food pantry early on, and it was really interesting this particular organization, great organization, New York Common Pantry. And they had received a grant to help senior citizens receive food distribution through senior citizen centers. So it was a new program. They were gonna have vans leaving the central location going out to these new communities and providing food. So when we started looking for space and understanding what they could do, you started learning a lot about crazy things. Like if you get all this food and then your new distributed the weight of the food and the canned goods and all the foods that will be distributed could be really important on the weight of a building, so being in a second floor wouldn’t work. So we ended up being in a ground floor small warehouse, and then they had some other programs. Programmatic needs counseling. Nutrition program really split how they ended up solving the real estate. We had office in one location and food distribution in the vans and a different area. So sometimes the way that you solve the program programmatic needs can look different because of the the whole state weight breaks out. So it’s all pen of a learning experience some time

[00:25:42.44] spk_1:
and creative creative experience. All right. Jane Brody, she’s executive director and Vikas Partners. They’re at Vikas partners dot com. Jane. Thanks so much for being guest. Thanks for sharing.

[00:25:51.79] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Be safe.

[00:27:57.30] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software their accounting product. Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. You have a free 60 day trial on offer. It’s on the listening landing page. That’s the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take two. Take a breath, take a breath. Relax. You need to take care of yourself, not just once. Try to do each day, sit with yourself and clear your head. Focus on your breath. Meditate, nap. Whatever is good for you. Be good to yourself in a healthy, soothing, calming, loving way. There’s so much shit going down, and so much is being asked of you That is strange and difficult. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. You need it. Please take care of yourself, and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for racial equity. D I welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. You know the conference had to be canceled, but you also know we are persevering virtually. We’re sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin for a free 60 day trial. My guess now is just in pen. He is a community engagement and equity manager at n 10. The host of 20 NTC. Justin, welcome.

[00:27:58.74] spk_4:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:28:00.60] spk_1:
It’s great to have you. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we’re able to work this out. Virtually thanks so much. Yes. No, you’re You’re well and safe ing in Portland, Oregon.

[00:28:25.54] spk_4:
You know, I am. It’s some, you know, we’re all living a very new reality, So it’s definitely something that, uh, was kind of new to me. I worked 2 to 3 days a week, um, from home. But now I’m doing it all day. Every day

[00:28:33.04] spk_1:
of misery. Were maybe six years. Hopefully not seven, but maybe five for six days. Um, so you had really interesting topic? Ah, critical. Critical announces you what worked for us. A critical reflection of intends racial equity rooted. D I work? Yeah, I think this is obviously your responsibility at and then as

[00:28:50.28] spk_4:
that is, Okay,

[00:29:28.14] spk_1:
um and I’m still, you know, this D I is I’m 58 years old, so I didn’t grow up with this. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it, talking about it, struggling with it for and, you know, maybe not long enough, but three for 3 to 5 years, I’d say some ran. Um, so I have a pretty basic question, but I want to get it off my chest. What off, Mike? I wanted I want to get it out. Why? Why do you have to say racial equity rooted D I work, right? I would think that that’s just subsumed in D I

[00:31:10.70] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, I think there’s a lot of things, you know, I wanna give space because we only have 25 minutes. I could definitely talk for 25 minutes just specifically about this. However, I do think because we center all of our, um, racial our excuse me, our d I work with rooted in racial equity. It’s important to us because I think at the end of the day, there are a lot of systemic and oppressive things that have happened not only in this country, but also, um, within the nonprofit sector that really do effect people of color first. So, for example, there’s this idea of intersectionality, which does happen and is a thing. But also, like, you know, you can be a, um, a white woman who is just and still get a lot more privilege than a black woman who was disabled. So, um, so that’s just a just a bit of it all, too. And that’s why we center it with racial equity to explicit. Absolutely, Absolutely. And that’s not to say that it’s a binary where we are saying that racial equity above everything else and we’re not we’re gonna brush everything else off the table. There are other identities that, um, people identify with that air just is important. And, um, they they have their own, you know, marginalization within their own communities to, and those need to be honored as well to and considered. And, um, really makes in and made sure that they’re being prioritized during certain circumstances.

[00:31:47.94] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, well, you know, we we may end up going more than 25 minutes, because I Something’s according to meet it. What about this? This pandemic. How do you feel? Like this is highlighting. We’re gonna get there are. Actually two things I wanna ask you is exacerbating. Yeah, I want to start with almost over the highlight. How do you feel? Like this pandemic and the country and I’m focused on Let’s focus on the U. S. Yeah, uh, that has the reaction to it. They’re working from home. The we could talk about the s. My gosh, I could see how we usually go. 2125 minutes.

[00:31:52.27] spk_4:
Yeah,

[00:32:03.44] spk_1:
about the loan programs? Absolutely. Wherever you wanna go, How do you feel? Like the pandemic and the response to it have highlighted. Yeah, inequities.

[00:34:11.38] spk_4:
What a great question. Wow. So I can only speak from personal experience or just the identities that I bring to the table. So, um, I am I’m half black and I’m half Navajo. So my dad is black, and my mom is Navajo. And so, um, being that bi racial professional in the non non profit sector world, um, you know, as a black man and as a Navajo man as well, you know, you see these things and you have these very direct ties to the communities with which you navigate in and reside in the one thing that comes to mind is, um you know, all of my Navajo relatives. So I have a lot of member who relatives that are still on the rez on the New Mexico side. Um And so, um, one thing that’s really striking to me is that, you know, the last I mean, the numbers change every day, right? With these covert 19 cases. Um however, the last time I read it, um, it was, um per capita, the amount of cases after New York and after New Jersey, the next, um, the next amount of cases was the Navajo Nation under. Really? Yeah. And so that’s I mean, there’s their cases per capita, and I want to make sure that that portion Exactly. And so that’s really concerning because I have family on the rez. And also, um, it’s, um It kind of it speaks to the, um the years of historic, um, oppression And, um, you know, genocide that has happened with it within indigenous communities. Um, and how there has been, um, baked into, um, you know, communication and treaties and promises broken promises by the federal government. Why? This has kind of made, you know, this situation that we have now on the Navajo reservation. And I’m sure, um uh, among other tribes, something that is really, really pressing right now, there’s probably accounts everywhere. And so I just

[00:34:27.37] spk_1:
health care. Health care has been a serious negative problem. Serious problem on the indigenous peoples for generations, right? The health care on the reservations.

[00:36:01.23] spk_4:
And so it just ends up being something that, like, I hold near and dear to my heart because I think of all my family members that are on the rez and live on the Navajo Nation. Um and also just, you know, um, the the way in which, um, you know, the the federal government supports or doesn’t support the Navajo Nation, never being its own sovereign nation. And so I think there’s, um um this is really kind of, like, pushed everything to the forefront of what is wrong with the systems. And I think it also, you know, on the other side of things, you know, you see now as that this data is coming out, those who have passed away and died to come, Teoh, you know this illness, um, the majority of them are black people. And so that’s also concerning for me, Um, that, you know, I think that there is, um, something to be said for that. And I think, you know, that kind of also lends Teoh. There are people who aren’t able to, you know, work from home. They have to be out there to. And so I think it’s very interesting in a data point that, um as hopefully when all of this subsides will be able to look at and really sit through and figure out and find I mean, I would be willing to put money on, you know that. You know, people of color indigenous communities, black people and indigenous communities probably were disproportionately affected by this. This pandemic

[00:36:09.24] spk_1:
in terms of health care, unemployment, yes. Businesses closed, I

[00:36:35.13] spk_4:
write. And also systemic and systemic. You know, an institutionalized racism that has policies, practices that our priority not prioritizing them, or are looking over these communities to as well. If it goes past the health care and Maurin two systems as well, it’s not built for them. Um, because it wasn’t with them in mind. It was with white folks in line,

[00:38:25.22] spk_1:
right? Right. Okay. Yeah, we could We could certainly go hours on that. Yeah. Um, all right. I’m yeah, and I don’t And so I mentioned, you know, highlighting and exacerbating. I Yeah, I think when When the dust settles and we look at disparities in outcomes, we’re gonna find immigrants and indigenous folks disproportionately impacted in terms of, uh, well, yeah, the institutional racism that you’re you’re bringing out and just in terms of the more surface store things that that, you know, like health care and help get unemployment lost jobs. And I mean from I have a small business. And so I see the way those that loan program is, at least in these opening weeks of it or whether I should say we’re recording on according on Tuesday, April 21st and so far, the opening program the opening, uh, indications around the S B A. Programs are that, you know, big businesses air getting it, yes, and most likely predominantly wiped. Run. Yeah, and and small businesses that I think Congress intended it to help or are falling short. At least that’s yeah, that’s what’s happening in this first tranche of 250 billion. We’ll see what happens when there’s the absolutely next the next level, but I’m sure you’re right. You know, the because the system is rigged against and built in favor of Yeah,

[00:38:26.63] spk_4:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:38:28.16] spk_5:
yeah, yeah. All right.

[00:38:30.62] spk_3:
Um,

[00:38:32.02] spk_1:
so we’ve been 20 minutes already, and we haven’t even gotten to only about it away. About the time you gotta you gotta host that. I wanted to talk about the pandemic in these terms

[00:38:42.27] spk_4:
or yeah,

[00:39:16.89] spk_1:
I haven’t done anything, but also so thank you. Yeah, but don’t worry about the time that you got a lackluster host to deal with. It’s my my shortcoming. Um all right, let’s talk some. Let’s talk about in 10. Yeah. Um What? Ah, well, all right. Before we get into the details of in 10 how do you how? Open someone start this conversation in their own organization? Yeah, I feel like it’s systemically institutionally. Wait, Run. Well, that would be out. They wouldn’t feel it. That would be obvious. But wait, wait, wait. Policies. Yeah. Um, how did they kick off this conversation?

[00:39:23.82] spk_4:
You know, tony, that’s a really great question, too. And there’s a variety of ways to bring it up. Teoh, I just got done reading a really good book. Actually, that Amy shared with me. Um, about how Teoh Stopgap

[00:39:38.86] spk_1:
award and simple words are social media and technology contributor here on non profit radio. Okay, just for the for the 45 people out of the 13,000 who may not know who any simple

[00:42:00.09] spk_4:
Yes, She gave me a book about institutionalized racism and institutionalized bias on how that manifests itself in the workplace and more importantly, what you can do about it. So it’s one thing toe like, recognize it and be like, This is wrong. And this is happening. Another thing to start, um, to start bringing it up within your organization is at the root of your question is you know, what can you do? And there’s a variety of things that you do. I think the first thing that comes to mind, um, that I read in this book was the book. It’s called Recognizing Institutional bias. Um, I may have to, like, follow back up with you. I know it’s something like that, but I breathe through it, um, so I’ll I’ll give you the title of it later. Um, but she um But this book talks about, you know, it’s one thing. Excuse me to go about it as an individual, but it is. I mean, it’s kind of like one of those things where safety in numbers and so being able tohave an ally or someone within the organization that you can also push this work or were, too. So it means asking some hard questions, and it means asking some hard questions of yourself as well to. And I think that’s the key point. Um, as well is realizing that, you know, we all have implicit, um, biases that we have in our head. Um, you know, when we think of cats, we think of cats, as you know, very. You know, Castile. They kind of take care of themselves. Some cats aren’t like that, though, you know, And so I think going into it, we have to really check those ideas about certain people, people from communities that have been informed, those implicit biases. We have to make sure that we’re good with ourselves or not even that we’re good with them and that we’ve reconciled them but that were aware of. So I think that was a really big take away point for me. Um, you know I’m 1/2 black man. I’m a Navajo man. Um, I have implicit bias, you know, everyone does. And so I think being able to understand that before pushing this work is really key to this. You have to really kind of strip yourself bare and understand that, um in order to push this work forward, you’re going to have to do some self work as well.

[00:42:17.87] spk_1:
Implicit biases. Is that not the same as stereotypes?

[00:42:20.30] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Some people call stereotypes. Yeah,

[00:42:24.77] spk_1:
you gotta You gotta be conscious of your own stereotypes.

[00:42:58.50] spk_4:
Exactly. We don’t politicize. Yeah. And sometimes those stereotypes are very obvious to you. You you think about them. But also, there are some that are very deep within your subconscious that come out without knowing, too. And so then it’s one of those things where you start. You have to be reflective and think, Gosh, where is this coming from? Where is the stock coming from? And where is this belief coming from? And really dig down deep into it. Um, I think another thing to that, um, when you push this type of work forward or are start to prioritize this work you have to think about you and I were talking about this earlier is, you know, the climate of the organization. Um And where in what? In the environment of the organization, some organizations have their heels in the ground, and I have experienced organizations like that where their heels air in the ground and they’re like, we have a D I committee that meets once a month and that’s it. Check box checked. We’re done with it. We don’t have to do anymore work. We don’t have Teoh, you know, examine the policies and practices in the environment that we put forward with an organization. So that’s a non starter for a lot of people. And in those

[00:43:37.63] spk_1:
organisms, on top of that r R D I committee, it has black black people in it. Yeah, so we’ve We were an equitable organization. Exactly to blacks on our equity committee.

[00:46:01.08] spk_4:
Exactly. And so I think those are things that I have experienced those there is half organizations where, you know, that’s the thing we call tokenism within. Let I wouldn’t even say within the d I world. That’s just tokenism, period with in whatever world you want to live in. And so that’s That’s a tokenism thing. And sadly, I’ve fallen victim to that in my earlier years of, you know, when I was a young professional of, you know, really being eager and wanting to please white leadership, Um, and realizing that I wasn’t pushing forward d I work. I was not contributing to it, but I was a victim of it. Um, and it was a system much larger than the the actual work that I was putting forward, and it was really sad, and I had to remove myself from those situations and those token izing situations. There was once a month d I meetings where I was that the token eyes per person of color that was having to bear my soul about some very, very deep and emotional topics. And so I think a lot of times, you know, you have to as a person who’s pushing this forward specifically, and I’m you know, I say this directly to people of color and organizations and non profit organizations who are the one to, you know, third person of color in the organization. I mean that that’s a big, big hill to climb to, and it’s not insurmountable. But what I will say is, you know, you have to be able to check in with yourself as a person of color and as a, um, as a professional of color, Um, be a black being Beit, indigenous, being Asian, um, agent. And so I just think that you have to check in with that because and be very hyper vigilant and aware that, um, some folks may want to token eyes you in a way and being ableto have, um, practices and things in your back pocket, too. Disrupt knows those policies and procedures and practices and then either move forward or remove yourself from the situation.

[00:46:09.88] spk_1:
Checking in with yourself means, like the official question. Is this even worth doing at this organization?

[00:46:11.41] spk_4:
Right. And maybe

[00:46:12.44] spk_1:
Do I have any ally or there are other potential allies? Okay, go to potential allies, and they turned out not to be allies. Is it even worth doing in this organization like you say, you remove yourself, Go elsewhere?

[00:47:29.58] spk_4:
Yeah, and it because. And that’s really sad, too, because I think a lot of us in the nonprofit world are, um, you know, we are so passionate about the work that we dio We wanna, you know, we kind of pride ourselves. And I did this for a very long time when I worked in use development. You pride yourself on the number of hours that you work. You pride yourself on working overtime. You pride yourself on for the bare minimum, you do that. And then you have larger organizations that are typically white Run. That’s hold you hostage to that belief. And that’s really and that was I mean, I heard that maybe two or three years ago, someone said it much more beautifully than I just did. But on I wish I get credit them, but I forget who it was, but it really is those, I mean, and that’s a very big systemic, um, problem within the nonprofit world is that, you know, a lot of times white leadership will hold those those middle level, middle level, direct service middle management folks. Um, be it you know, people of color or not to their own jobs. To that to that own passion. I

[00:48:03.03] spk_1:
thought you loved our work. Exactly. We asked you when you came here three years ago. What moved without the work and, you know, using that work against them in some fashion time for our last break turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard even through the Corona virus cacophony. They know exactly what to do to make it happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for racial equity, D I? In fact, this runs long because it’s a good conversation with Tristan that I did not want to stop. The total show is roughly 75 minutes,

[00:48:15.97] spk_4:
and it’s like the byline of you know, non profit works. Sometimes, sadly, is like we’re not in this for the paycheck, you know,

[00:48:23.25] spk_1:
Passion, passion, shaming.

[00:50:25.86] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so I mean, and so when you put you take that in and of itself, within the nonprofit world, and then you layer on a racial inequity that’s like also, you know, people are stuck folks of color. Black folks are stuck with it between a rock and a hard place within their job. They want to make money toe like live to pay their bills. They want to have a job to do those things. Yet they’re stuck in an organization that is holding them hostage to the work that they’re doing, and so that that’s something that I think is I went off on a tangent. But I also think that you have to be very aware is this Is this organization ready for this? Is this organization really about this work? Because it’s gonna strip a lot of things bare for the organization that they may not like, you know, And that made that push against that culture dominate that white culture, dominant belief and systems that have built the organization toe what it is today. So, for example, it means, you know, how are we working? Are we working every single meeting toe have some sort of end results? Um, you know where we come to a conclusion at the end of every meeting? That’s white, dominant culture in and of itself. Sometimes we have meetings that don’t have a big or clear and result, and we need to be okay with that. Um and so I think about that. And I think about my past, you know, roles that I have held in use development and how many times I’ve been in a meeting where it’s like we have to get X and Y and Z done by the time. But in two hours we have to pound out a budget in two hours on DSO. I think being able to work, and I’m not saying that like and 10 is one of those, you know, shining places on the hill. But I love it here because Amy gives us the space and latitude to sometimes not have toe have meetings that maybe we didn’t come to a clear conclusion or that there’s not an expectation that we have a solid, you know, um, a solid solution that we come out of

[00:50:31.72] spk_1:
their outcome by end of me and meetings or just a microcosm of the total work, that because the work is constantly a journey absolutist repeatedly, you know, it’s not done at the end of a year or 18 months. And, you know, like you were saying different example though, you know, check, we’ve done our We’ve done our diversity work

[00:50:50.11] spk_4:
right right

[00:51:06.97] spk_1:
now. Now, we just banned the committee or the committee Lance to be six months every six months or something like that. Yes, the meeting is just a microcosm of the of the overall structure and progress and journey you say in the description of the program, then 10 journey. It’s never It’s not really never completed.

[00:51:15.12] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s never done. And it definitely doesn’t live solely with me. And I think this is the one thing that I particularly like, Um, in this this role that I’m in within 10 and working so closely with Amy with D I work is the idea that she and I are a team, um, working towards this, I think a lot of times and organizations, they token eyes, a person of color, and they’re like, Oh, you’re the equity person. You’re the equity director. You’re the X, y and Z, which is fine. It’s great. I’m all for that. But a lot of times there are situations where or organizations that put it all on that person. And they’re like

[00:51:52.79] spk_1:
the person has no with no authority, exact lots of accountability, but no authority,

[00:53:04.39] spk_4:
right? And so what I really like and appreciate is that Amy pushes me, and I pushed back on things that we’re working towards and, um You know, I say I pushed back, but also she and Ira will learn personality anyway, So a lot of times, um, she’ll peek around the corner from our office when we when we worked in offices. Um, you know, and be like I was thinking something like, Oh, my gosh, I was just thinking that. So I think it also helps be specifically with her. And I really are, um our relationship is that she and I are just very similar. Um, and, um, I think that does help. But I also appreciate her as a leader being able Teoh ask questions and prioritized racial equity not only when she’s thinking about D I stuff, but when she’s thinking about the budget. When she’s thinking about NTC when she’s thinking about, um, you know, all of our I t endeavours, all of our community pieces. Um, I appreciate that because that says to me as a person of color and more importantly, a someone who’s, um, you know, a ah person who’s working for is that Oh, this person’s in it for riel. Yeah, Amy talks. The talk walks the walk, and again, it’s not toe like, you know, game points with a Me, too. Because for that you

[00:53:18.07] spk_2:
were you making

[00:53:18.66] spk_1:
the point of the importance of leadership that has to be leadership support by in, you know, whatever it’s called or else you are, Well, not the person committee or the entire endeavor is just gonna be, you know, without without teeth,

[00:54:48.24] spk_4:
right? Yeah. And so that’s what I appreciate her as a leader, even though I’m the person that has the role that pushes it forward and stewards that she’s right there with me helping me and asking those questions on an executive level and on a board level two and prioritizing those questions. And so that’s something that I really appreciate as an employee, but also separately from that, like as a person of color, as an indigenous man, as a black man. I appreciate those things, Um, and so it’s it’s kind of 11 of those situations where, you know, talk is cheap, you know? And, um, you know, she walks the walk, and I really appreciate that. I’ve, you know, worked with a lot of white leadership in past organizations that I worked in, where they talked to talk. They love a good. You know, feel good session about D I stroking their own egos and all the things. But when it comes, it comes down to it when there are policies that they’re pushing forward and meetings that are directly, you know, working against racial equity, that’s not it, you know? And so those are examples that I think of where I’m like. Gosh, I wish I would have spoken up. Um, but but, you know, within 10 I don’t feel that. And that’s something that I I’m gonna hold on to it and hold onto it tight, because I know that this is a good thing. And I’m really, um, you know, glad and blessed to work on a place that prioritizes those things.

[00:55:13.17] spk_1:
Can you tell a story of an example of something that on its surface is not inequitable by? Maybe you pointed it out, Or if not, use something. It became obvious that it is inequitable. Yeah, you brought it to the organization and a chain jumping

[00:57:48.23] spk_4:
right. So I’ll give an example, and it doesn’t really point out a specific person, but it points out, Is Berries easy thing that no one had really found it within the organization within our organization. I know a lot of people think, Oh, wow. It’s like this multi tiered, you know, organization with lots of people. There’s only 15 of us, so, I mean, the way we work is very collaborative anyway. And so, um, once we have a job, sport where folks immunity are able to post open positions on the community s so a lot of times it’s organizations that will want to post a open position that they have on for the longest time, we didn’t, um we as an organization didn’t have, um, a requirement for salary. So when people when there was a salary field for organizations to put in, um, you know what? How much this person was going toe radio? Absolutely. They leave a blank, right? D o e dependent upon experience. Um, and if you look at that, too, seems pretty like, oh, standard. We see it all the time with, like, you know, you know, we go on linked and we go on any sort of jobs board site. Yeah, They probably don’t, you know, put the salary, and a lot of times it’s dio we and, um I I myself was like I don’t see like why, you know, there’s like an issue with that, too. Until it was pointed out that, like, you know, this was This is a practice that is steeped in, um, whiteness and its steeped in patriarchal, the patriarchy. And so why do Why do organisations not do that? I don’t know. I can’t say that for each and every other word Is that what I can say is that when organizations don’t put a salary for a job or put d o e um, that disproportionately effects women and people of color. Um, because it contributes Teoh. And there have been studies that show that when it’s when there’s no salary, it discourages people of color. Don’t feel like they are, um, you know, I don’t want to speak for for all people of color, but there have been studies that have shown that, you know, it contributes to that pay gap. That gender pay gap

[00:57:59.03] spk_1:
okay, enables that’s what I thought. It enables disparities in pay

[00:58:00.60] spk_4:
exactly and so

[00:58:02.32] spk_1:
committed because you don’t have to commit in writing exact ranges 1 25 to

[00:58:57.62] spk_4:
one solidity on their maybe organizations out there that are like, Oh, this is a black woman that’s applying for this job. I’m going toe put my I’m gonna offer this job to this person on the lower end of that range, and that’s not fair, Um or, you know, because I didn’t put post my salary. I’m gonna lowball this this this job offer and that’s not fair as well to we want organizations that are going to put or post positions or job roles on our website to be up front with everything, too. We want to make sure that our community members have all the information that they have to make an informed decision about their future job. Future A future benefits so they can make the most educated decision on whether they want to join this organization or not. Do you

[00:59:02.44] spk_1:
know what’s what’s required for

[00:59:12.82] spk_4:
that salary? Yes, so right now it is required. That’s the only thing it so you can’t post a job of job opening without having a salary.

[00:59:15.53] spk_1:
OK, so array is arranged, Arranges acceptable,

[00:59:18.46] spk_4:
I believe, arranges acceptable. I

[00:59:42.21] spk_1:
think that’s okay that someone is coming being offered at the lower end of that range, and they feel their experience marriage something higher? Um, then they can brother on conclusion that this may very well be racial or gender based or some other some other classifications based beyond their experience. You could draw that. You can draw that conclusion for yourself. If you’re being offered the low end of that salary. Radio

[00:59:50.07] spk_4:
have some very badly for that with the rains that that was going, going it, Teoh.

[00:59:53.03] spk_1:
Otherwise, your you’ve got no information whatsoever.

[00:59:55.44] spk_4:
Absolutely. And so you’re like I don’t know what. And so a lot of times there’s just weird tactic that people do. It’s like, What do you think you should be paid? And it’s like, you know, don’t turn that on its head. You know exactly what this job is worth. Please put it out there so everyone is aware.

[01:00:12.08] spk_1:
Okay, My own conclusion,

[01:00:57.91] spk_4:
though, anyway, so we require that now, and that’s something that we all came together and talked about. I mean, I can’t say who I can’t remember who, like specifically brought it up as something a za point. But it was such an easy fix. Such an easy fix. And, you know, I’ve been you know, I keep on talking about past organizations I’ve been with, but, um, I’ve been in organizations where it’s like an easy fix, but it took three months to implement. It took a meeting une email thread, you know, Ah, heart to heart meeting about how this was. You know, sometimes if it’s easy just implemented, and this was one of those things that you know, start to finish, maybe took ah, week a week and 1/2 to get it all running a

[01:01:01.53] spk_1:
programming is all of a sudden it’s a required field when it wasn’t required before.

[01:01:05.85] spk_4:
I think things are red

[01:01:06.96] spk_1:
asterisk and has to be programmed in the back end that you can’t submit your form without that field being

[01:01:23.71] spk_4:
feel that there’s a there’s low hanging fruit that sometimes exists in an organization that no one’s really sat and looked at and been like, Why are we doing this? How can we do this differently? That’s in a more equitable way in an equitable, equitable, more former fashion. And I think you know, I also say that, you know, I bring up these this anecdotes just because, you know, I mean, there are a lot of other things that we’ve done that. Have? Really?

[01:01:39.11] spk_1:
Yeah. That’s a That’s a great one.

[01:01:40.66] spk_4:
Because lately that

[01:02:19.54] spk_1:
innocuous on its face, it’s completely innocuous. Leave it blank if you want. Your Blanco are based on experience. It sounds perfectly. We’re doing that that way for generations. Based on your experience, you’ll get big. But now it’s locked in. You know what? We’re being offered a salary at the low end, and you can draw your own conclusion that why that might be exactly okay and no longer enabling. All right, Um, that’s a great story. Yeah, Um I mean, yeah, there’s so much we can talk about. Yeah. You mentioned in the description how racism manifests differently. A different levels of an organization.

[01:02:23.60] spk_7:
Yeah.

[01:02:24.50] spk_1:
First, a little bit.

[01:03:03.42] spk_4:
Yeah. So great question. I have, um, the ah, you know, opportunity and the privilege to serve on a, um A It’s an advisory. It’s the Committee on Racial on Racial Equity for, um, the it’s called Organ Metro. So it’s Thea Thea area local regional government that it’s, I believe, spans three, if not four counties in the Portland Metro area. So it’s a governing govern form of government that overlooks all four of us

[01:03:06.10] spk_1:
have to show off that I know Portland is in Multnomah County.

[01:03:09.04] spk_4:
Yes, I have to show. I

[01:03:10.54] spk_1:
just have to marry. Let’s have to show that off. That completely

[01:07:16.58] spk_4:
how I, um seven. It’s very much like a, uh it’s very much like a, um you know, council, where there’s council members that represent each district. And there’s also a c 00 that runs the entire organisation and government. Um, So, um, I sit on a, um on a committee that is tasked with making sure that racial equity is something that that governing body prioritizes and also is taking into consideration when it’s pushing or advocating for anything. So all that to say is that we had an opportunity Teoh to touch base with some leaders, potential leaders within this, this governing body. And, um, I think one of the questions that came to the top and that I asked you because it kind of goes back to your question of like, um, racial inequity manifests itself in very different ways on. And so if you’re a you know, a CEO of an organization, um and you’re like, yes, I’m about d I work. I live in. I breathe it yada yada. I do all of it on and I’m really passionate about it. Yet you’re a white person, and then you have to, you know, foreign partnerships with other area organizations, and they’re all white as well to what happens when you get into a room or you’re having to have big, you know, decision making conversations and everyone and there is white. Um, and, um and people in there are saying things that aren’t racially equitable. Um, and you’re sitting there in your belief that I believe I believe d I work. I know that it’s there, but the gravity of all these other people agreeing with this false, you know, or agreeing with this, you know, racially an equitable belief. You’re gonna have to push against that in that scary right to go against the grain of like, the larger group on. And so I I ask that because you know, our I just I bring that up because I think the phrase that comes most to mind to me is someone said it to me and I forget why read Reddit? Orde said it. But it’s always stuck with me as you move up within an organization, racial inequity on racism becomes more sophisticated, so it’s much, much easier to detect. Unlike a direct service, rubber hits the road level as you get to that C suite level. You know of an organization, it becomes more nuanced. It becomes mawr about tokenism. It becomes more about how you’re playing folks of color against each other or not even talking about it at all. Um, so I think that’s something that I’ve, you know, experienced in scene, you know, on a direct service level. When I first started right out of college, you know, when I was working for direct service, the the direct service staff of Color, the black folks, we’re always the ones who got, you know, assigned to jobs or assigned the locations that were less than favorable. And so, um, you know, it’s pretty straightforward. And then, you know, as we moved up within the organization, we realized that there was a token izing thing going on at the middle middle management level. And so, you know, I think that’s just one thing that it manifest in in very different ways, you know, in different organizations, but also across different levels To one level of, you know, racism may look, you know, one middle level of racism may look completely different at one organization that it doesn’t the other two. And so that’s why it’s, like a very sinister thing. Um, Teoh to be able to, you know, figure out for an organization.

[01:07:39.98] spk_1:
Um, let’s see, where can we go and sort of wrap up? Um, What you tell me you want? Oh, let’s bring it back down toe back to in 10. Because they were supposed to have been, but I let I wandered. Um um, deliberately So what do you want? What you want to share about? Sort of in closing in about intense journey, The work, the work that remains

[01:09:03.37] spk_4:
Yeah. Go. Absolutely. I love that. You said the work that remains cause there’s always work that remains. I don’t want anyone. I certainly don’t want to put on any, um, you know, false pretenses that we are. We’re there as an organization. We have arrived. We’re not. We have There’s always work that needs to. That has remained. That is remaining. And so I think that’s where I would start is that we have we’re on our own journey. We are, um, you know, moving forward intentionally and with respect to make sure that we are covering all of our departments and making sure that, you know, everyone is a steward of this d I work and making sure that it permeates every corner of our our organization. So that’s where I would start. I think you know, if folks are out there that are wanting to or your I mean, I specifically I speak Teoh, um, you know, CEOs, executive directors of organizations that are white. Um, this is the best time to push this forward. And it’s going Teoh not be easy. That’s

[01:09:10.83] spk_1:
what he said is the best time.

[01:12:27.75] spk_4:
It’s the best time because, you know, this is a time where people are, you know, there are country is and I don’t want to get you know too far into the political part of things. But like, you know, there’s a lot going on in our country to and, um, non profits are, you know, specifically smaller grassroots roots nonprofits are, um, you know, suffering A lot of times, a smaller grassroots non profits were run by people of color, so you know, I think in the spirit of non profit, it’s incumbent upon, you know, leadership to make sure that they’re helping. Not only there constituents, their employees, but also other nonprofits. So what does that mean for those CEOs or executive directors? This is the time, you know. And again I say that not in like, ooh, the stars have aligned these air that this is the time every time is a good time, You know what I mean? There’s no bad time to do this. This had this work has to be done. Um and so I would say that, you know, it’s it’s something that will pay off for years to come to. You’re going tohave employees when you start to prioritize, you know, d I work and not only within, like the D I department, but also just d. I work across your organization across departments and start to look critically how you can change and morph and transform into. I’m an anti racist organisation. You’re going to realize that a Not only are you a happier person be your employees are happy to be there and happy to do work, because inherently, when you a drew racial inequity. You’re addressing a lot of other inequities as well. You’re addressing, you know, gender inequity. You’re addressing LGBT Q. I A plus in equity as well. Those things will come in that makes employees happier. And what does that do that starts informing how you interact with your employees? Not only its not only informs it, but it starts to shape the things that you hold near and dear, both individually and as an organization, and your employees and staff will see that they will see that and they will want to stay. And that Matt effects. You know, if for those data folks out there, you know, staff retention, you have folks that are going to stay for the long haul because they believe in the work that you dio and what happens, you know. I mean, a lot of people think, you know, in in organizations or in business, you know, the customer is always right. Customer’s always right customer first, you know, or your that your communities that you’re serving our first and yes, that’s right. And there’s a grain of truth in that. However, you can’t serve your customers or your um, your the communities in which you’re serving or living in. If your employees aren’t served first and aren’t being prioritized, it’s kind of like, ah, flip of mindset that you have to dio So that would be my encouragement. And that would be my, um my you know, last piece that I would end on Is that like, you know, this is the time to do it, you know, because you know it. At the end of the day, it helps serve your organization to make sure organization stronger, and it makes your employees stronger. And it makes the relationships that you have with your employees stronger. Likewise that didn’t that, then goes into your, you know, direct service groups. You know, your communities that you’re living within. It makes your connection in your relationships more sincere and more bonded.

[01:12:51.55] spk_1:
Tristin pen, community engagement and Equity manager at N 10 s Justin, Thanks so much.

[01:12:58.14] spk_4:
Thank you so much. I hope I made sense. Thank

[01:13:51.35] spk_1:
you very much. You made a lot of sense Last sense and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 ntc remember, were sponsored at the conference by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us next week. Privacy. Best practices. I told you it was coming. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo.

[01:14:41.79] spk_0:
A creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. I did the post production. How did I do? Let me know. Sam Liebowitz managed to stream show Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots non next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.