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Nonprofit Radio for September 13, 2021: Effective Fundraising

My Guest:

Warren McFarlan: Effective Fundraising

That’s Warren McFarlan’s new book. It’s written for potential board members, but it’s a valuable study for those on the ground, doing the work.

 

 

 

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[00:00:02.84] spk_2:
Hello

[00:00:09.59] spk_1:
and welcome to

[00:00:10.46] spk_2:
tony-martignetti non profit

[00:01:46.64] spk_1:
Radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with like the Asus vulgaris if you drive me out with the idea that you missed this week’s show effective fundraising. That’s Warren Mcfarland’s new book. It’s written for potential board members, but it’s a valuable study for those on the ground doing the work. tony state too planned giving in the pandemic era were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s my pleasure to welcome Warren McFarlane to the show. F Warren Mcfarland is the Albert H. Gordon? Professor of Business Administration Emeritus at Harvard Business School. So F Warren McFarlane is the guy I’m talking to. Albert H. Gordon is the guy who endowed professorship He fr McFarland has spent the past 40 years serving on social enterprise boards, helping organizations find the right leaders advanced their missions and raise the necessary supporting funds. I don’t know anything more about Albert H. Gordon. F Warren Mcfarland is a retired esteemed professor. You don’t need a website. You don’t need twitter Warren, welcome to the occasionally crass

[00:01:48.87] spk_0:
non profit radio it’s directly with you this morning.

[00:01:54.74] spk_1:
What’s a pleasure? Thank you for joining us. Congratulations on the book.

[00:01:56.44] spk_0:
Thank you very much it’s been uh

[00:02:36.24] spk_1:
and you’ve written it for trustees are really potential trustees, but I think there are a lot of good lessons in here for for folks who are doing fundraising. So that’s why, you know, because our audience isn’t so much potential trustees, but it is fundraising on the ground in small and midsize nonprofits. So very apt subject. And I was glad to hear about your book. You Pretty much open with a chapter chapter #2 on governance governance. Why do you, why do you put governance ahead of getting into the fundraising topics in the

[00:02:57.74] spk_0:
book? I think because governance sets the context for fundraising. The governor’s committee on the board, I think is probably the most important of the committees and they are the people responsible for identifying the people that will serve on the board. That will be able to help, uh, fundraising in one way or another, either personally or helping to make connections, general context and, and, and so forth. So that I really put it up because the three major roles of a nonprofit board, our number one approving the mission and the strategy of their uh, number two, hiring retaining and supporting the Ceo and certainly basically helping to secure the funds. And that’s a hard, difficult kind of things. My friends who head up nonprofits repeatedly say it’s 50% of their time that is spent on that. And it’s just hard, difficult kind of work. And that’s why I really, you wrote the book to help focus new board members attention on how vital their role was in helping to set the context for an organization to succeed.

[00:04:00.94] spk_1:
Yeah, fundraising. So let’s give a shout out to your previous book, which dealt with those three topics, but this book fleshes out the fundraising that the third of Exactly yes. Your tell folks what your your first book was that had more focused on the first two of those

[00:04:06.74] spk_0:
the

[00:04:07.63] spk_1:
roles of the board.

[00:04:26.44] spk_0:
The first, my first book was really aimed on governance of nonprofits, what a board member needs to know. And it really looked in a very broad kind of way. You’re focusing on mission structure, uh budgeting, planning and so forth. And that fundraising was one of the pieces in the book, but it was such an important piece. And I’ve been spending so much time working on it that I really felt there was need for another book to kind of taken and blow apart. Was one chapter in the other book into the, into this book.

[00:04:50.04] spk_1:
Yeah, because we know fundraising is at least 50% of an effective ceos time spent. And you make that point in the book a couple of times, but give a shout out what’s the exact title of the previous book?

[00:04:56.56] spk_0:
Uh Corporate Information Systems Management, I’m sorry?

[00:05:00.07] spk_1:
No, no, that that can’t be a different book for a different,

[00:05:11.64] spk_0:
I have to have to go back and think of something, but it was basically joining a nonprofit board. What you need to know.

[00:05:26.84] spk_1:
Okay, so is that it joining? Okay, because we’re talking about effective fundraising, the trustees role and beyond. Uh, and, uh, okay. So the previous one. Okay, joining a nonprofit board. What you need to know? Exactly. Right. Well, I don’t know why I doubted the author of the book. Just you maybe a little nervous when you talk about corporate information systems. I don’t know. That’s a

[00:05:35.79] spk_0:
different, wasn’t really part of my

[00:05:52.64] spk_1:
life. It’s a different, it’s a different book. The man’s prolific. You know, he gets, he’s written so many books. He gets the book titles confused. That’s all right. All right. Um, I’m not sure that many of our listeners, again, small and mid sized shops have a governance committee specifically. What’s, what’s the role of that committee? They may be doing governance maybe in their executive committee. Perhaps it doesn’t get smaller, smaller and midsize or what’s the role of the governance

[00:06:52.24] spk_0:
committee? It’s basically, it’s a nominating committee. Its role is to attract, uh, the right kinds of trustees to the organization to help talk them into doing it, to help get them, uh, slotted into the right kind of role. Worry about getting the right people and then helping them as when they finished their term to be involved in other ways because one of the critical things. And so I view that, uh, for for profit boys are very different. I’ve served in a number of them. They’re very exciting. And when you’re over the job is over. You’re gone for a nonprofit board. This is meant to be a lifelong relationship and one of the organization work. That’s right now why we’ve Now developed a committee of some, uh, 35 former board members. We have them sitting on various committees and so forth. And with that, they have stayed involved with the organization. And with it comes a philanthropy. They’re building willingness to keep people you involved. So is this an entirely different kind of concept? And it means that you have to that a nonprofit board is often less efficient because you have to deal with people’s idiosyncrasies in a way that you don’t in the for profit world because I’m not actually going to take a major donor who’s a little bit careless and sort of, you’ll cut them off too sharply.

[00:07:39.64] spk_1:
Yeah. You make a good point about the trusteeship and the end of the trusteeship still being a, uh, warren, are you able to silence those? Um, that sounds like an email notification you’re getting. Are you able to,

[00:07:51.97] spk_0:
I’m sorry.

[00:08:25.04] spk_1:
Okay, no problem. Thank you. Um, the end of the trusteeship is just a continuation in the spectrum of the, the lifetime relationship with the nonprofit. I, I think a lot of non profit to make a mistake there and they figure, okay, the person served three years, six years, Hopefully not more than six. That’s another subject. But, you know, they’ve served their time. And, and now they just, you know, we hope they’ll continue to give. But that’s the end of sort of the, uh, it’s the end of the volunteer volunteering of the relationship. And I think that’s a mistake. Your, your former board members. You know, there may be an emeritus board or some kind of an advisory board or, you know, some other way to not lose that expertise that they gained while they were trustees.

[00:09:18.14] spk_0:
Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s exactly the key point that I recall her often, a board of advisors or a corporation or two things that people, you know, calling for. And that was it. One of the jobs economic committee is to help figure out what the new, as somebody comes near the end of their term, how they will be able to be involved and get them involved in in the right kind of way now. And that basically tremendously increases your footprint. You must have term on that because you need to continually bring new people in while you’re bringing them and then in why taking care of the older people is, is, uh, can be, it’s, you’ve got a lot of value ideas and also philanthropy wise.

[00:09:35.34] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Think through that, that post board member post trusteeship relationship,

[00:09:57.74] spk_0:
I’m involved in four board, I’m involved in for nonprofit boys. Now, the links to them go back over almost 40 years and it’s evolved from one setting to another. And the power, you know, grows. And so that there was an annual giving then there was, uh, capital campaign giving. And at my stage in life now, why planned giving? It turns out to be a particularly important thing.

[00:10:25.04] spk_1:
Sure. Yeah. You say the fundraiser is an educator of donors. That’s a, that’s a pretty, uh, basic lesson. But I want you to flush it out for folks because sometimes basic lessons are, you know, they’re foundational for a reason they’re worth revisiting and thinking about why, why do you say fundraisers are educators of donors?

[00:11:50.34] spk_0:
It’s really helping somebody to understand how they can go about, um, contributing in ways they haven’t thought, I mean, they, that I’m working with somebody right now and they’re that some tragedy in their family. And we’ve been able to sort of help them think through how this new facility they’re building, is going to help the organization and help their grief and fill their needs. So that, uh, it’s, uh, it’s very important that when I go out and ask people from, uh, you know, for money, I’m not asking them for money. I’m asking for them to be able to contribute contribute to society in a way bigger than they can on their own. And it’s, it’s really opening up an opportunity for the person opportunity they often haven’t thought about in their, in their own ways. And that you’re one of the things that died. And I talked about this for trustees is that the first thing that I do is in fact, the trustee is you’ve got to believe in the cause and have made your own contribution because when it comes right down to crunch time and I’m looking somebody in the eye and they say warrant, what have you done first? You know, this is my number one or two financing and this is and here’s why I’ve done it. That there’s a credibility that that comes out of it. And the reality is that many donors, their lives are busy and they haven’t thought through the array of alternatives they can contribute to and how they can go about extending their leverage.

[00:12:12.34] spk_1:
So the fundraisers job is to educate, educate them and educate about the work that’s being done also what those exactly those programs are doing. Um I I presume you’re a believer in 100% participation, fundraising participation on the board.

[00:12:33.74] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean on the one hand and say, and people give in relation of capacity, I was the chairman of the board of the hospital. I’m sorry. You

[00:12:39.30] spk_1:
cut out a little bit there people

[00:12:40.35] spk_0:
give chairman. I was a chairman of a border.

[00:12:42.79] spk_1:
Wait 11 further step back. People giving what level, What did you say?

[00:13:07.34] spk_0:
I say people, Uh, it’s not the level that you give your question. It was your your question was do I believe in 100%. I do, but I want to say at the hospital board share. I valued the $25 I got from the homeless mother in East Cambridge As much as I did. The 200,000 from the main present because she was the eyes and ears of the community. She gave enormous value and her commitment was to the institution. So that’s why I believe in the 100%.

[00:13:30.14] spk_1:
Right? And, and of course for someone without a home, $25 as a stretch gift. So, yes. All right. And so you you would you go along the philosophy that there’s not a minimum giving level for for for every board member, every board member gives something that’s a stretch for their capacity, given their capacity. Is that is that how you would define it?

[00:13:44.54] spk_0:
Or? The answer is yes. But uh, yes. Yes. But

[00:13:50.98] spk_1:
that’s fair. Yes.

[00:13:51.89] spk_0:
Yes. It is on the real high end gifts. I might be willing to be the number of four philanthropy. I have two or three situations I’ve been in where, you know, somebody has given me a sort of a go away uh, token gift to them which has actually helped the enterprise meets goals. They didn’t even know they could have. So, I mean, it’s one of the things that we find in uh, in 2021 is that the shape of the giving pyramid has really become much steeper and taller. And so therefore the people at the top of the uh, the Jeff Bezos, his wife Mackenzie and so forth. I mean they uh, a small gift for her is a transforming gift, you know, for the receiving your organization. So that’s, that’s kind of the exception that I was referring to.

[00:15:04.24] spk_1:
And then after someone has given you, you talk about stewardship as you know, the engagement of past donors and trustees. And you say, stewardship is not an overhead item, but an offensive weapon. So let’s talk about stewardship. What, what, why? Why again, basic lessons. But, you know, I want people to get your perspective, ownership is a stewardship is so damn important,

[00:16:29.24] spk_0:
um, that you give a gift, um, for, uh, let’s say for an endowed chair that you maybe do that if you’re in your fifties or sixties, that when they come back and tell you how that chair is performing, it’s an opportunity for them to engage your thinking on the next level and the next level that, uh, one of them is going through a very different situation hospital where they didn’t report how the gifts were doing. You know, for people they gave, and they were wondering why people were dropping off the whole notion of it’s a lifelong engagement. And when you come in to tell somebody how their, uh, previous investment organizations doing, there’s a lot of interest on that part of the person hearing, how did their money do, But you’re also there in the opportunity to talk about other kinds of things and opportunities and move the discussion forward. And it may have been that an annual fund gift around the class reunion that may in due course lead no to a capital campaign. You’ll give, you know, somewhat further on down the road and it may be a plan gift even, you know, you know further down the road. And of course the art of the question is when you’re managing these lifelong relationships, you have to be careful not to move too much clothes quickly because if you in fact uh, get the short term gift, you may also be turning off the long term relationship, which can be more important. That’s that’s why this is such an art to this, this fundraising.

[00:17:19.84] spk_1:
Yeah. And and there’s a whole variety of stewardship methods, you’re focusing on reporting on the impact. But you know, if, if the first few gifts are, you know, in the 150 to $500 range, No, that’s, it’s hard to place impact, put impact upon that. But how, how would you steward those three and low four figure gifts? Uh

[00:18:15.94] spk_0:
It’s actually your point is that one of the first things when somebody graduates from college is we have all kinds of incentives to just get in the habit of giving $50 for $100 you know, for each of the 1st 10 years and you have a 10 year giving club that has given 10 years in a row, all 10 years enrolled for a, somebody who’d gone for 22 to 32 doesn’t add up to a lot. But the habit of delivering the habit of giving the engagement and so forth. That’s what’s really laying the seeds for much deeper support of some of them. You’re further down the road. And

[00:18:59.44] spk_1:
that makes me think of another stewardship method. You know, the recognition society, I think a lot of folks don’t think about having a recognition society based on longevity of giving. So you know, of course you’re using the, you know, 10 years, someone graduates from college if you can get them in a habit of giving for 10 years, there’s a very good chance unless you blow it That, you know, they’ll be giving for the next 40 and 50 years in increasing increments and in different ways and as as you’ve talked about. But that that method of recognizing giving for longevity, those folks who have been given to you for 25, 30 years and there’s longstanding organizations that have donors that do go back that far And maybe, you know, maybe maybe out of 30 years, the person missed two years as you give them a break or something, you know, but what you have, I mean, I longevity, not just the dollar amount each year

[00:20:08.64] spk_0:
as you’re talking about a fearful reports from right to my mind where the little asterisks, beside the people who’ve given for each of the last 10 years and double asterisks for the last one and you actually look at it and that of course is, you know, one of the things that’s important is that development people want to a point that putting out development reports and give them reports and so Fort is very expensive and you really should do this on the web and on screen. The fact of the matter is when I’m at my most philosophic, I’m flipping through report and I’m saying what my classmates or associates did on, it’s an organization my Children involved, I may flick back down to another part of saying and it just turned out to be false economies and a lot of the people that have undone the paper stuff and brought online have had to back off the other way because discussions and ruminations which were important were taking place.

[00:20:14.10] spk_1:
Yeah. You, you, you have some uh, anecdotes about that in, in the book which you know, we can, we can go, we can’t dive into all the stories. You just got to get the book. You just got to buy effective fundraising. So

[00:20:50.94] spk_0:
just start, uh, it starts from the very beginning, I think for example, uh, as I entered Harvard College as a freshman And my second day there, I’m sitting with 1100 people in the room and somebody is talking right and left and those are the people that aren’t there because you’re there and you’re feeling pretty good. And the next comment he made blew my mind, he said, and every last one of you was on financial aid. Uh, my father did not communicate me, talked a lot about the expense and he said, you’re here because of the philanthropy and generosity of the generations that came before. But at your 25th reunion, you will have an opportunity, will pay that generosity and the numbers went something like that. That thing just slow across the room. And 1100 mines. A lot of it’s stuck there. And, and the 20th reunion, there was a $200,000 gift. And at the 25th, there was an 8.5 million and the 35th. It was a 25. And that the habit, you lay the idea down very early

[00:22:40.24] spk_1:
On the very first day, they say 25th, he’s already got you giving to the 25th reunion. That’s right. Right. Right. All right now. seven. It doesn’t have to be a college. There’s there’s a very good lesson there. My synesthesia is kicking in. I’m getting goose bumps. Thank you. They listen talking about this. Uh, yeah, there’s a very good, you know, you get people in early and you and you and you cultivate those relationships. You cultivate that, that relationship long term from the, from the outset, You know, so, so for your organization’s, you know, take the lesson there. You may not, you may not be a school, you know, the first day of college, but you can be cultivating from the very early stages. Absolutely, a long term relationship. All right? Yeah, stewardship critical again, warren calls it an offensive weapon. Um, let’s talk about the head of the development Committee. This is something that I’m sure listeners do have. Even if, you know, even if it’s a small board, there’s at least a development committee of, you know, two, maybe three folks. But you spend time on the, on the, you know, in the, in the parties to the, to the board, talking about the head of the Development Committee and some skills that you like to see there. What what are you looking for in, in that position?

[00:26:09.54] spk_0:
If somebody who’s got to be able to mobilize other trustees to come and join in the giving operation, the ability to reach out, uh, into the rest of the board, make them understand this is part of their job. They had somebody who, whatever their going out and talking about the organization. The organization is in their mind maybe to me don’t, but uh, Is a, it’s a job that’s 24 hours per day, seven days a week, and even more so for the development person. But uh, I just remember a situation that, uh, I was heading up the capital campaign for a religious organization, came out in the Boston Common in early january, you know, the temperature was about two degrees, the wind was blowing. It was miserable. I had 300 yards to go and I ran into one of my former students, uh going on, he stopped and said, what are you doing? I said, I’m going off, you know, to to join this. Uh this just felt me, this religious organization said, oh, you know, I’m a member of that religion, this is somebody who has, his wealth was considerable. And I just kind of stopped and said, well, you’ll tell me more. The temperature suddenly went up to about 60 degrees, the wind dropped down and I said, I was a senior warden of my church down in New Jersey. Yes, I said, but you’re not there anymore, So which church do you belong somewhere? I’m now up with the one in Wellesley. And I said, that’s terrific. And we disappeared out. I got to the office and sat down and he said, listen, this is what it is all about. And that my former student was in his office, you know, three weeks later for lunch and over lunch, you know why? That the head of the terrorist organization uh expressed an interest to actually see this person perform in the classroom. And so I never want to see me teach. But he went and watched this summer student of mine no teach. And that led to another nice consistent pro bono consulting assignment. And uh and Result of the whole thing was system is about $500,000 gifts that took place in such a tasteful way, you never even know what happened, but that’s something you just do recognize the opportunity and you have to stop, you know, put the thing together. You got to be creative and the head of the Development Committee, I want them there. They need to breathe and live the organization. You know, 100% of the time, it means they’ve got to have a close working relationship with the Chief development on Mr. They have to have a close relationship with the Ceo to make sure that they’re always always in

[00:30:30.54] spk_1:
line. Great, great wisdom. Yeah. And uh, you say you want the person to be persistent and fearless and you know, that all that, that all is uh, epitomized by this story you just told that’s outstanding. Thank you. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and they’ll get that voice heard in the right outlets like The Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, Fast Company Market watch many others where they have the relationships to get you heard. So what does this mean? Get your voice uh, find your voice and then get it out there. Well, defining the voice. They’ll help you craft your message. I mean, you’ve got your key points, but you want to make them cogently concise coherent. Look at that. Cogent, concise, coherent. Yeah, that’s what you want to do. So that when you’re talking to the journalists at these incredibly good outlets, You get quoted. That’s what you want. You want the quotes. I mean you know saying that you said something and then they paraphrase it. Yeah that’s pretty good to look. It’s your name, it’s your organization of course. But the quotes that’s the gold standard. Turn to will help you craft your message is you know what the message are. They’ll work with you to make it. What did I say? Cogent write, cogent, concise, coherent so that you get the quotes in these excellent outlets. So help you find your voice, they help you get that voice heard turn to communications. You know this your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s time for Tony’s take two. I’ve got a free timely webinar coming up for you planned giving in the pandemic era. It’s graciously hosted by J. M. T. Consulting. I’m grateful for that. Their gracious. I’m grateful. We’re doing this on september 30th. From 2 to 3 Eastern time. I’m going to talk about what planned giving is who your best prospects are. Where to start your program and how planned giving fits in our pandemic era and of course you got to have the all important Q. And A. That’s where the focus goes on what you’re thinking what what is on your mind. I can only channel so much of you. I need you to fill in the rest. So that’s the all important Q. And A of course plenty of time for that also. So you have to make a reservation, it’s free. But you got to reserve, you go to J. M. T like Juliet mike tango from the old Air force days. Military folks will appreciate that. Also private pilots, JMT consulting dot com then events and then expert speaker series. That’s the only category they have. I would have put me under something like middling speaker series or lackluster speaker series. But alas, they don’t have those categories there. Of course. The problem is not going to create a category just for me as well. Just stick with their default category of expert speaker series and squeeze me in there. So that’s um, that’s where, that’s where you go. JMT consulting dot com events, expert speaker series. It’s all on september 30th two to three Eastern. I hope you’ll be with me for planned giving in the pandemic era. That is Tony’s take two we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for effective fundraising with Professor Warren Macfarlane. Another another part of the part of the board is the board chair. The chair and the Ceo the chair Ceo relationship that that’s critical. I’ve I’ve seen very dysfunctional relationships where there was micromanagement and you know, too much in the details. But I’ve also seen very healthy relationships where it’s it’s it’s supportive and collegial between the board chair and the ceo talk about that relationship please.

[00:33:47.34] spk_0:
It’s the most sensitive one. You know, in the, in the organization that the ceo is that it’s first of all, it’s peculiar to nonprofits. This is not known in the for profit world. And for that, the notion of an unpaid non executive chair of the board uh working with a paid seal. Uh the first problem is people have, coming from the private sector, have trouble understanding how that system works, that it means that the two have to be in public very much. It’s a Pataca. I can remember that, you know, one board that I chair, that the uh CEO and I would fight furiously but always 10 miles or more away from corporate headquarters. But when you’re there with the board and with the stamp, the hands around each other’s shoulders of the, like the jokes were going back and forth and you made sure you couldn’t put a slim nail you in between the two of us. I mean, that relationship is just an absolutely critical kind of one. Now, what’s also interesting courses, in some cases, why the chair maybe a very much of a development uh project, that there was a wonderful book that was just written by one of my former students said, hey Jim, who is a uh investment maker in in new york, he is chairman of the University of Russia’s Sir board of trustees. And his book describes, you know, how when he was asked to do that job, he said, I just can’t do it because I’m amazing. I need Rochester’s short of money. We need somebody to really raise the money and the president just kept working on. And finally my friends, these types of books, just what is the largest gift that’s ever been given To Roger? So it was back in 1926. George Eastman gave $26 million dollars and uh, he spent some more time and money and his family said Rochester did so much for me. We’re going to do a little bit more than that. Now that’s the chairman who, I mean, he gives with his treasure, he gives his time and his block and he’s a, he’s a remarkable person. He was an orphan basically from orphanages from the time he was age seven to age 16, and one in ROTC scholarship out of the orphanage, you know, into uh, into Rochester. But the whole notion behind that in terms of how our chairman can support is really, it’s, the chairman must be philanthropically oriented, must understand the development mission, must be able to uh, work around the strengths and weaknesses, you know, of the Ceo

[00:33:55.34] spk_1:
uh, fill me in a little inside baseball on corporate boards. What what’s the role, what is the role of a board chair on a corporate board.

[00:34:22.84] spk_0:
Um, the, in the, in the ideal world, the board share is a sports chair and Ceo and you have a president and chief operating officer boy. So the board share it, Uh, it’s basically, it’s, it’s the Ceo job. Now from time to time with emergence, You may have somebody left over from emergency you need to send with, so you may make them sort of a non executive chair of the board and give them a nice office about 10 miles away from corporate headquarters and the three years work while you work your way through your retirement, earn out and so forth.

[00:35:16.74] spk_1:
Okay. So it often is the, it’s the chairman, Ceo chair chair and Ceo. Okay. All right. So going back to nonprofits, what’s your advice warrant on fixing the relationship? I mean, if I think CEOs would know if they have a dysfunctional relationship, whether it’s micromanagement or maybe the board chair is too hands off. Maybe he or she is not a strong leader of the board, not a consensus. What, what advice do you have for the C. E. O. S. Two improve the relationship with the

[00:36:15.53] spk_0:
board chair? Well, there, there’s several things, you know, the first one is that The length of tenure of the board share, uh, is often just 2-3 years And if you want people to rotate through that. But the critical person, this is again, is the head of the governance committee that the head of the government’s committee is one of your wisest, most senior atrocities and their job is to make sure that that relationship is working. And if it’s not working to find a way to sort of you move the thing along, it’s a it’s just it’s a terribly difficult and awkward thing and of course it’s complicated because you know, people have tremendous egos, it’s alm except that uh the people amass the well father to do these jobs, they don’t suffer from an underdeveloped of self concept. And so how you deal with their he goes uh is very tricky,

[00:36:29.43] spk_1:
right? But so what, you know, what what specifically I mean, do we have a heart to heart conversation with them and say look, you know, I think, you know, and I know, you know, this relationship is not ideal. Can we can we talk about it or you know, or is it just, I mean, I hate to leave folks just wait until the board chair’s term has ended and then, you know, we hope to do better in with their successor,

[00:38:16.52] spk_0:
their to their to their their two or three different ways. The first one is uh the question is whether it’s the board chair problem or the C. E. O. I mean, this is of course, you know, one of the problems because in fact the paid Ceo does report, you know, to the board and to the board chair. So the the power actually lies on the on the other uh side that the question there that they’re all they’re all kinds of consultants who can come and help, you know mediate these things. But when you get to that level, it’s already broken in a distaste away and the hardest problem is to try and avoided getting in it at the beginning and that has to do with how you pick the people, you know, in in, in the roles and that uh, sometimes we was in a very difficult situation from your skull were uh, the new board share uh, just almost immediately immediately started pushing things in that as he learned about the organization, uh, he came up with a strategy just wasn’t going to work for them and we had to reach in and in the most tender way, get him out. But then this is because uh, to get him out knowing he could also be a supporter of the organization. And so it was just about as complicated as you can say to get the dirty deed done, but we love you, we need to and can help you and the boys a lot of scrambling and a lot of stomach just turned around and came to a happy ending on on that part of it. But if the strategy that was would not have worked and would have actually driven the organization the bankruptcy,

[00:39:08.72] spk_1:
you have to be very, very careful about circumspect about who you put in the board leadership, you know, if even even vice chair because the presumption is that the vice chair is gonna become the chair, assuming he or she is, you know, competent. So you have to be careful there and and other board leadership positions to its it’s very important and you you you’re right, I mean you can end up with uh it’s something that really is is detrimental to the organization and you’re stuck, you know, for two or three years.

[00:39:30.42] spk_0:
Well. And you know, this is of course why it goes back to your very first question when you asked me, you know, why did I pick the governance committee to start? It’s because that’s the place where these issues get sorted out and need to be sought on the strategic way. Mhm.

[00:39:31.32] spk_1:
Yeah. Put put time into thinking about these things and planning, planning, succession planning, I presume you have a succession plan for for the ceo you know, there should be succession planning on the board as well. You know, we talked about as people leave the board, but succession,

[00:40:09.31] spk_0:
oh we know the slots that you’re needing to recruit for. I always need to have a couple of uh potential board chairs ahead of the Finance committee, one or two heads of the development committee and the job, it’s a delicate because when you who clued somebody onto the board, you often have a view as to what role they’re going to be best set. They may not, however, understand that and they may be so excited to be on the board that they want to sort of dive into some area or they have neither skill nor So it requires some discussion to sort of make it that make that work out.

[00:40:58.01] spk_1:
Yeah, I was invited to be a board member once and I I turned it down because I didn’t think the organization had really thought through what benefit I could bring to the border. You know, why I’d be a good board member. Um, it was a smaller organization and I was supporting the work. But I I didn’t I just didn’t feel that they had done their due diligence around me and you know, why they wanted me. It was just, well, you’re a supporter, you know, you’re you’re in the area. So, you know, would you like to be a board member? And

[00:41:00.97] spk_0:
I mean,

[00:41:02.86] spk_1:
time, time constraints went into it also, but I didn’t, I didn’t feel and I continued supporting the organization, but I didn’t feel they had they were really taking board membership as seriously as they should, even as a small organization.

[00:41:18.91] spk_0:
Yeah. You never know until it does man, you got mixed into all these things and it can turn so bad, so you’re just much better to not get started and getting into one that doesn’t fit

[00:41:47.81] spk_1:
right. And then, you know, the embarrassment of you have made me having to leave before your term is over and then there’s bad feelings there, and I just Yeah, so think through, you know, be careful about, be thoughtful, be circumspect about who you invite on your board,

[00:41:49.02] spk_0:
That’s

[00:41:49.65] spk_1:
two or three years can be a long time with the difficult board member or a couple of board members. Two or three years can be a long time.

[00:41:58.11] spk_0:
Yeah. And a lot of them maybe, uh, sits here so

[00:42:09.60] spk_1:
well. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a long, that’s an awful long term. Six years. I mean I’m all for, you know, maybe extending for a second term, two or three years and then, and then the second term. But

[00:43:13.60] spk_0:
I remember this battle that I lost some years ago when on sports share and that uh, this person had endowed a new athletic field for one of the universities in the area. And we needed a new athletic feeling a little bit around the edges. Often I said, uh, I need him on the board. The head of the company said one, this isn’t going to just fit this question, but I’ll make sure he sits beside me every meeting, I’ll keep him under control. Said one even got two more years left, he’ll be here afterwards and we didn’t do it. Somebody else got the gift. But I’m pretty sure it was the right one because that they, there is a culture that you have to deal with. And that’s that if you have overtly disrupted people that can, in fact, that’s just supposed to people who have good clear ideas, well reasoned that are different than yours. That’s a whole different topic. But uh, loosely cannons learning around can can cause all kinds of difficulty.

[00:43:41.60] spk_1:
I think it sounds like you were wise to uh, to take the advice of the person and not bring that member honest, but that’s a very good point. You know, warren, you’re only gonna be here for two more years, they’ve got years after that and you know, and really, how well are you going to be able to constrain them? You know, if, if these, if the person becomes obstreperous in, in a, in a board meeting, are you gonna be willing to, you know, put them back in their place publicly in front of the rest of the board and maybe there’s staff in the room at the same time and that could have been ugly. So you were wise, I

[00:43:52.60] spk_0:
didn’t feel wise this time, but the way you describe it, you’re absolutely correct.

[00:44:20.59] spk_1:
Yeah, okay, we’ve said enough about how bad it can be. Um, so hopefully you have a good board chair ceo relationship, it’s, it’s supportive, its collegial like you said, you know, you, you couldn’t drive a thin nail between the two of you in public but you have, you have things out in private and, and, and there should be a lot of communication and I think a board chair and see, you know, they should be in touch. I don’t know what’s a week or so.

[00:44:22.25] spk_0:
It takes a month, right? It takes a lot of time. Uh, the ones that I was working on recently, it just turned out that uh I was taking 40, 30 to 40 hours a week of the chair. And that means you got to make sure you have the time uh to put into that

[00:45:14.59] spk_1:
too. Yeah, and the person that you’re asking has the time. Yes. All right, so I’ve been I’ve been looking forward to talking to you about planned giving. Yeah, because you have a chapter on plant giving and foundations, and I’ve been making a living a plan giving for A good number of years, 2400 years. Uh and your plan giving donor, it sounds like uh so and you’re you’re playing giving chapter, you spend most of your time, and it’s just, you know, it’s one chapter and you make the point that playing giving could be a series of books. And indeed, I have

[00:45:21.00] spk_0:
a I

[00:46:13.88] spk_1:
Have a 400 page treatise on planned giving, you know, on my shelf that I hardly ever have to refer to, but when I do it’s comforting to know it’s there. Um so, you know, your your chapter is an overview of you talk about iras and trust, different types of trusts and uh charitable gift annuities. Um um My focusing planned giving is now, so I I I I am a startup plan giving consultant. I I initiate the kickoff launched programs. Um So my focus is mainly on Will’s because I think that’s the place to start a plan giving program. Um but again you’re doing an overview, You’re not talking about starting a plan giving program. Your your chapter gives an overview of playing giving, but I’ve still been anxious to talk to you about it, especially, you know, because you’re playing giving donor to what what do you what do you see as the role of planned giving, how critical to you is

[00:49:23.97] spk_0:
This to me? It’s uh that it’s as you pass by a certain point in your life and I don’t know whether it’s 60 or 65 uh that the actuarial tables begin to sort of uh well differently. And that uh somebody uh is looking at once to make a meaningful gift and they may be worried about, you know, the cash flow and something like a channel remainder trust or channel annuity is that the donor life, the fact they’re able to give a big number And they in fact, no, they’re going to live for another 40 years. And so it’s a big deal that you and the other side, you know, the end is much closer than the dome. So it’s a very happy kind of situation. Uh And what it really does is that people who are going to worry about end of life expenses are able to use this set vehicles and there are all kinds of tax incentives. I mean the one I personally caught my attention was the I. R. A. I’ve spent 30 years of my life you know building that up at every step along the way for retirement income. And that somebody had developed wants to sit down and said that you do understand you know what the tax implication is when you die of the I. R. A. And by the time you look at he said this is actually free money because you’re not taking very much away from your kids and you’re giving a lot more you know to the charity. And so those discussions can be just enormously beneficial and it’s uh but you bring it up with sort of the right point in a person’s Your life at Harvard. We never heard about a charitable annuity at a reunion before the 45th reunion. And by the time becoming the 60th that’s all you’re hearing about these vehicles. So that that that that there’s a time and a place for it. And it also of course comes back to our earlier discussion of the of the uh the annual fund giver. The trustee who becomes a trustee emeritus contributes to a capital campaign. And then plan giving comes right on. And as you get into the habit of giving through the other things you become more receptive, You know, nor philanthropic about these later on in your life kinds of up to us. And that what you need there is you need people who are really specialists like yourself because there are 1000 ways you can put the thing together. And I picked just about six or seven or what are the most common ones to, to make them the point. But those are the ones which, uh, your hospitals and museums and college so forth. You tend, you tend to use.

[00:50:28.46] spk_1:
Yeah. And I see it as essential to the stewardship of donors. You know, you want that lifetime relationship. It’s, it’s stewardship over a long period. But in the, in that period there are, there’s cultivation and solicitation, you know, for the next gift. So as your stewarding over a lifetime, you’re cultivating and soliciting for different, different phases, you know, the annual, the, the major, the capital, the, and, and, uh, ultimately the planned gift. Um, so it’s, uh, so I’m interested in, you know, you as a, as, because I worked with a lot of plans giving donors. Um, I’ve worked with thousands through the years. Uh, but you know, I don’t get to have the conversation with them that I’m, you know, on the same level having with use. I mean, so I, I have to sort of suss things out a little bit. Uh, it sounds like for you, the tax advantages of, of the Ira, we’re appealing

[00:50:29.99] spk_0:
Well, but

[00:50:31.61] spk_1:
that tax advantage was moving for

[00:50:33.94] spk_0:
you when I looked at, I said, this is, this is a very inefficient way to distribute the IRA and my kids, I can,

[00:50:42.21] spk_1:
they’ll be taxed on.

[00:51:25.56] spk_0:
Exactly. And so therefore this is money that I can get much more leverage. And by giving out to the outside so that I’ve been really hammering at people that for the last uh, five or six years. Then you come back to the notions of, uh, where you want to make a really significant, you know, impact. And this is where charitable remainder trust uh, can be really helpful so that you want to sort of make a half million dollars million dollar gift. But you have to worry about keeping the food on the table through your declining years. And there, Oh, that uh, that you put the money inside for that trust. And it takes care of the income to your life or your life and your spouse’s life. But there’s a big number that goes to the, uh, the museum of the university of what? Not at the end. And then of course it becomes particularly interesting is still Harvard uh, does it very nicely, is that you can designate up to 49% of it to some other organization. And

[00:51:57.59] spk_1:
right, well, Harvard, Harvard is an outlier there because they have the Harvard Management

[00:52:00.88] spk_0:
corporation. But what that does

[00:52:11.85] spk_1:
just, that was just for your trust, most, most nonprofits can’t do that. And, you know, the trusteeship ends up being with the, with a Fidelity or Schwab or, you know, some, some financial institution.

[00:52:16.41] spk_0:
But what it does is it, uh, in that case it allows organizations that don’t have very sophisticated plan dealing. And you really worry about the investment advisors, they’re using uh you can sort of put that underneath the same, I’m broad and the fidelity to do the same thing.

[00:53:01.85] spk_1:
Your larger point that one remainder trust can help multiple charities. And yeah, I know you make the point in the book that Harvard Management Corporation allows that. So as long as I guess, I guess as long as 51% goes to Harvard 9% can go to other charities. Uh, But if it’s an outside manager and some some financial institution manager acting as trustee, then uh oh there is unlimited ways you can divide the, but then the lots and lots of charities from one single trust

[00:53:25.85] spk_0:
as somebody who makes a living designing these things. Of course, your greatest single friend of this is the U. S. Congress because the laws change. And just as soon as you have finally tuned strategy in one place, you’ll go off change and then you have to come back and you re think about it. So it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a continual ideally, once you getting along you can’t just do it right. And it’s done.

[00:53:54.05] spk_1:
Yeah. But this the significant tax code changes only come like every 15, 20 years or so. Yeah. So you’re you’ll go through a couple in a career. Uh, But again and again, you know, my work is mostly at the at the formation of planned giving level. I mean I’ve I’ve done $25 million dollar lead trusts and I’ve done multiple remainder trusts and hundreds of gift annuities, maybe thousands. I don’t know hundreds at least. Um, but my work is mostly at the formation stage, getting folks getting nonprofits set up with

[00:54:10.24] spk_0:
just how to do

[00:54:35.44] spk_1:
it. Let’s start asking with because let’s start asking for bequests simple gifts by will. Let’s start there. That’s the foundation. Uh, I believe of of any planned giving program is, is just a simple gifts by will. Um, and then in years later, you know, you may graduate to the more sophisticated gifts depending on the size of your organization. You might not, you might just, you might just be content with doing requests indefinitely and you’ll capture most of the plane gifts anyway because that they’re always the

[00:55:03.44] spk_0:
the most common comment is powerful. The will is, is the first place. And then of course, uh, way way back when that I can that I remember somebody, uh, one of, one of my ancestors uh, basically uh, was going to give a gift of, Of a, of a certain percentage of first stage and the other as you know, I don’t want to do it that way. You want to make sure that uh actually gets a specific money. And so instead of the percentage putting what you thought was a huge number, which was actually 1/10 of what we had it gone the other way. So you have to have all sorts of funny kind of twisted thinking that you have to sort of unravel that process.

[00:55:59.74] spk_1:
You, you flush that story out in the book. You tell that one in a little more detail in the book. So folks got to get the book. Um, warren, let’s, let’s leave folks with just, You know, you’ve got these 40 years of experience, multiple, multiple board memberships, board chairmanships. You’re a donor in your own right through times, decades and decades. Leave folks with some, some fundraising wisdom, please.

[00:58:02.02] spk_0:
I think that uh, philanthropy is fundamentally a very satisfying activity that basically you’re helping to move social causes along along that I next, of course, is the whole power of the nonprofit sector is that I have there there’s almost a spiritual aspect uh, built to it. I, I enjoyed my corporate boards. We make changes things that nature new parts or what, but there’s something different. There’s something different in the nonprofit and when you’re trying to sort of move society along in some ways that you think are, are important and uh, that what you have to learn is that all you have to educate people on the opportunities. Uh, that the book was originally with basically the nutritious e right after a lot of them are asked to be trying to be, the first thing they say is do you have to ask people for money because I’m not good at it. And the answer is yes. You are going to have to ask for it and we can train you how to ask for it. And it starts by, you’re basically making a major commitment because that gives you the passion and so forth to move the cause forward. But it’s uh, it’s when the four organizations I’m involved with now, he’s one of them are ones that I actually believe in the, in the mission in a deep internalized, you know, real kind of of way. And if I didn’t, I’d have, I’d have gotten involved in other things. Just mean, you can’t pick up new choices, a lot of ways that some of the smaller things I do, uh, they’re very interesting, uh, the kinds of ones that, uh, core values, but it’s, it’s an, it’s an opportunity, you know, to, to move the world forward. And that’s that’s that’s that, that that’s what why people give their time in the, in the treasure.

[00:58:10.32] spk_1:
Thank you so much. Warren fre Mcfarland, he’s a Professor emeritus at Harvard Business School. The book is effective fundraising, the trustees role and beyond. Published by Wiley Warren, thank you very much for sharing.

[00:58:22.23] spk_0:
It’s great with just terrific. Thank you so

[00:58:42.82] spk_1:
much. My pleasure if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Creative producer is

[00:58:43.78] spk_2:
Clan Meyerhoff

[00:58:44.70] spk_1:
shows. Social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy

[00:58:52.92] spk_2:
and this music is by scott stein. Yeah, thank you for that information, scotty you with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%

[00:59:12.72] spk_1:
Go out and be great. Mhm. Mhm.

Nonprofit Radio for May 31, 2021: BFD: Board Financials Dilemma

My Guests:

Andy Robinson & Nancy Wasserman: BFD: Board Financials Dilemma

What do you do for board members who can’t read your balance sheet? The authors of “The Board Member’s Easier Than You Think Guide To Nonprofit Finances” can answer that. Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman explain why understanding finances is critical so board members preserve your good work and protect themselves. Do their eyes glaze over when the numbers come out? We’ll help your board achieve financial literacy.

This originally aired on March 2, 2012 as show #81. This is show #540. Take a trip back in time with me. Of course, in 2021, your board members still need to understand your financials.

 

 

 

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:11.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and it’s March 2nd 2012.

[00:00:32.74] spk_3:
Who is that low energy uninformed imposter and that music. It’s May 31, This week’s show maybe from the deep archive, but that doesn’t mean we bring back a

[00:00:36.73] spk_0:
Host from six ft under.

[00:00:49.24] spk_5:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:02:24.44] spk_3:
Radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of Takayasu says arthritis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show B. F. D. Board financials dilemma. What do you do for board members who can’t read your balance sheet? The authors of the board members easier than you think. Guide to nonprofit finances can answer that. Andy Robinson and nancy Wasserman explain why understanding finances is critical. So board members preserve your good work and protect themselves. Do their eyes glaze over when the numbers come out, we’ll help your board achieve financial literacy. Yes. This originally aired on March two, That was show # 81. This is show # 540. So take a trip back with me in time. Of course, In 2021, your board members still need to understand your financials, Antonis take two planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is B F D Board Financials Dilemma.

[00:03:08.34] spk_0:
Andy Robinson provides training and consulting for nonprofits in fundraising, board development marketing and earned income. He specializes in the needs of groups working for human rights, Social justice, environmental conservation, historic preservation and Community development. Nancy Wasserman has over 25 years of experience in community finance and social enterprise development. Her particular skill is working with clients on projects that must satisfy both financial and social or community goals. They worked together to co author the book, The board members easier than you think. Guide to Fund to nonprofit finances, published by Emerson in church. And I’m very glad that their collaboration brings them both to the show. Andy nancy. Welcome. Thank you.

[00:03:17.16] spk_2:
Thank you. tony

[00:03:18.37] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you both Andy. Pleasure to have you back

[00:03:22.21] spk_2:
to talk

[00:03:22.98] spk_0:
with you again. Thank you Nancy. Why is this important for board members to care about the financial condition of a charity?

[00:03:45.04] spk_1:
Because that’s really what your charges as a board member, you have the responsibility to make sure the organization is achieving its mission, and the way the best way to do that is to make sure it has the resources it needs to do it. Um And the financial statements and the finance, nonprofit finances is how you know, um pretty quickly what’s going on, especially if you’ve you’ve got that information. You also have some responsibilities to the community um to deliver non profit um uh that does achieve its mission and does it in a responsible and fiduciary fiduciary appropriate way.

[00:04:15.65] spk_0:
So board members are have a fiduciary duty to the charity, right?

[00:04:20.82] spk_1:
Absolutely to the charity and to the public at large.

[00:04:25.06] spk_0:
So why do you say the public at large?

[00:05:01.24] spk_1:
Why? Because the the uh in the U. S. The Internal Revenue Service typically gives charities a uh nonprofit designation which allows them to receive contributions and issue um tax deductible receipts. And because the US is for going that tax um on those on those dollars and giving the public a public benefit, um the IRS exercises oversight of non profit charities and make sure that they really are, um, delivering on their charitable

[00:05:03.78] spk_0:
purpose. So, there is some public money in here. It’s foregone foregone tax revenue

[00:05:10.61] spk_1:
at a bare minimum. Often there’s also, uh, direct public money from government grants or government contracts.

[00:05:19.64] spk_0:
And how about, um, financial problems that can occur within the, within the, um, within the charity? Like, um, you bring out an example in your book of, uh, people not getting their salaries paid, things like that,

[00:05:44.34] spk_1:
you know, you there is that, that oversight potential here, you’re, you are running a small business and, um, you want to make sure that your employees are well cared for, that you’re achieving your mission in, in the world at large. Um, sometimes in, in charities will see folks um, you know, giving up salary, um, and, or, um, deferring payment um, out of the goal of achieving the mission of the organization in the long term, um, that seriously hurts the organization because um, people aren’t really watching what’s happening with the money. Where is it coming in? Where is it going out?

[00:06:14.34] spk_0:
And Andy? Um, isn’t there potential personal liability for board members? When when there are problems like this, like nancy’s describing?

[00:06:21.51] spk_2:
Well, let me do the disclaimer here, which is that neither nancy nor I or attorneys and we can’t give people legal advice.

[00:06:34.24] spk_0:
Okay, Well, there’s no, yeah, I know we haven’t, nobody’s giving you a, I don’t know. The listeners have not given you a retainer fee, so not yet. No.

[00:06:54.34] spk_2:
Okay. I will say this. Um, if there is non payment of payroll taxes, for example, if a sensation goes into debt doesn’t pay the I. R. S. Or state taxing agency’s board members are individually liable for that. Most most expenses. Board members are protected from being personally liable on but there are some exceptions. So I don’t know that that’s what drives this conversation. Board members are simply looking at the balance sheet as a way of making sure that they’re not personally liable. That’s one level on this conversation but there’s a whole lot more levels having to do with the stuff that nancy was talking about. Are we being efficient meeting our mission? Are we tracking our work so that we know we’re being effective and that’s really what financial management is about.

[00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Indeed. Okay. There’s certainly a whole spectrum of reasons why board members should care. I just wanted to bring out the last one which is, there is the potential of, of personal liability. Um, let’s see. Um, we have just about a minute before a break and I’m hoping nancy, why don’t you introduce the idea of the financial dashboard and then we’ll talk a lot more about it right after this break.

[00:08:27.44] spk_1:
Sure. The financial dashboard is something we introduced that, that really gives you a one page sense of how the organization doing. What I’ve found happens with a lot of Nonprofits is that they, um, they give their boards just reams of paper and um, all of a sudden you get the budget and the performance and the balance sheet and there’s 15 pages of financial statements and most board members, even ones who do know how to read financials don’t plow their way through it. And so the dashboard is essentially a one page um, opportunity to get a sense of um, how are you operating financially? Are you being efficient and um, are you having an impact?

[00:08:36.84] spk_0:
Andy I want to throw a question to you quickly. We got a question on twitter from Mazarin. What if an executive director was found stealing one of the things nancy? And I were talking about uh, kind of fraud issues earlier. Um, would you give them a second chance?

[00:09:12.94] spk_2:
Oh boy. Um, well, I’ll be curious to hear nancy’s answer to this. My initial response No, followed by. It depends. And um, I actually was on the board of an organization where we found the opposite problem, which was the board Executive director was pouring money into the organization. He emptied out his retirement account, but he wasn’t telling anybody he did this because the grants weren’t coming through and he was too embarrassed.

[00:09:24.35] spk_0:
So that’s a, that’s a, that’s a problem of being over generous though,

[00:09:28.57] spk_2:
it was paying for himself. We ended up firing the guy and the reason was he wasn’t disclosing to the board what the board needed to do its job. And I would say the issue in that case isn’t so much as misdirection lying. So I am obviously theft is a bad thing, but the board needs full disclosure from the executive director to be able to do their job well. And that’s really where I would go on that.

[00:09:57.14] spk_0:
And how about you nancy? Uh Andy was curious to hear your answer and

[00:10:35.14] spk_1:
I know I would say um again like Andy, it depends um probably depending on the amount of severity and this situation. Um You know, if if the executive director was borrowing $20 from the petty cash um when they forgot to bring um their wallet to work one day. Um clearly that’s not, not egregious enough to to fire somebody. But if uh they’re helping themselves to the uh to the checking account and redirecting grants into their own bank account probably caused fire them

[00:10:41.92] spk_0:
even if they pay it back. Right. That really, even if they pay back with interest, that really doesn’t

[00:11:01.04] spk_1:
matter, does it? I mean, the thing about nonprofits is, you know, they’re not your own private fiefdom or your own private business, there a community, um, engagement where the reason, you know, you have a board of directors that, um, are the final legal responsibility for the organization. Um, so you really shouldn’t be operating it like your own private business.

[00:11:34.14] spk_0:
Let’s talk a little about the dashboard now nancy, the financial dashboard we introduced earlier. Um, it’s a one pager, which I think will be a relief to people is that they’re not getting a sheath of financial, uh, forms and, and, and balance sheets. But what, what, what do you think, what are key parts that should be in this financial dashboard? That to sort of streamline the overview for for board members?

[00:13:19.34] spk_1:
Um I would say that that there’s really three parts to it. There’s a financial part where you’re looking at, you know, sort of what’s our total budget? Um You know, every board member of every organization should be able to very quickly say whether the organization is a $300,000 a year organization or $5 million a year organization? That’s sort of a basic um sense of scale. Um Are we making money or not? Um Do we have net income? Um uh Do we have cash on hand? Those kinds of questions? Um Do we uh do we have a network or we, you know, if everything had to be liquidated today? Um would there be any any money left over or any value left over? Um, that that was tangible value, not just, uh, goodwill. Um, we also want to be looking at at how efficient the organization is and efficiency changes depending on what the organization does. It’s, it’s really a sense of being able to measure you against yourself or against industry standards. Um, and it’s, you know, the, the level of what it costs to deliver, um, services, for example, to severely challenged populations versus what it takes to deliver services to, um, highly educated people in, uh, an urban area where they’re all easily able to get to something. Um, the cost levels are gonna be different. And, and we’re not saying that they should be the same, but to know, um, what it costs for you to serve your clients, um, what it costs to have volunteers, um, and then the impact. And I don’t know, Andy if you want to talk a little bit about that, uh,

[00:14:00.04] spk_2:
how you measure whether you’re meeting your mission or not. And there are often new miracle measures that you can think about. You know, if you’re a land trust, how many acres are you preserving if you do mentoring with Children? How many adult Children matches do you have? I sometimes this is long term tracking, which is hard for a grassroots organizations to do. But in most fields there are ways of measuring your impact in terms of the number of clients you’re serving or the number of audience members who are involved. And hopefully there’s some measures that you can come up with that act. The quality of your work as well. Okay, So people here is, we could get this all on one page. You would have data from two years ago. You’d have data from last year, you’d have data from the current year. You could lay them out and see what the trends are. All

[00:14:22.34] spk_0:
right. That’s the financial dashboard. I love how you guys have this little dance worked out where nancy talks about the financial and efficiency parts, but then she throws it over to a co author, uh Andy for impact and you have it all worked out sort of sort of taking the show over. But it’s ok. It’s in a good way. Um which which leads me to question. All right. So I have to ask when two of when you co author a book, how do you decide whose name comes first? Did you just do alphabetical order or did you flip a coin or uh See I’m too narcissistic to co author with anybody, but but how did you guys work that out? How did you decide

[00:14:47.34] spk_1:
that? Andy Andy’s alphabetically. First on first names and last names. And um, the honest truth is is he did a lot of the writing work, um, where as I did help him with content. So it was very easy for me to go first.

[00:14:58.48] spk_0:
All right. So if I had come in, you wouldn’t have looked only at martignetti you would have also looked at Tony and then I’d have fallen maybe to the bottom, uh, which is probably where I would have had much to contribute to this. So you’re wise not to take me even though I pitched you

[00:15:13.78] spk_2:
otherwise, your name is well known in the community. We might have put your,

[00:15:18.15] spk_0:
uh, your publisher would never have approved that. Um, one of the questions

[00:15:23.80] spk_3:
that we asked before the

[00:15:46.94] spk_0:
show that relates to what we’re talking about now is, um, do you believe all your board members have at least a general understanding of your financial position and 70% said yes, 30% said no. So that’s pretty good, 70%. But the 30% they’re not really very confident a general and that was just a general understanding. Um, Okay. So the, uh, that’s the dashboard. Um, Andy should these things be devoted only to the, the authority of a, of a finance committee?

[00:16:19.64] spk_2:
No, I mean, I think a really good use of the finance committee is the oil stuff down. The rest of the board can understand it provides support to the rest of the board, serve as mentors and back up for the people on staff who were doing this. This book is not about how staff members need to do financial management more effectively. But the reality is a lot of people who are executive directors or even finance directors need help and one of the goals of Finance Committee is to give them that help when they need it. So a way to think about this is so excuse me, if the board is operating at a high altitude and the staff is down on the ground, flashing through the weed, the finance committee is sort of in the middle there providing a bridge between those two groups of people and

[00:16:51.53] spk_0:
so that means that financial dashboard is for the whole board to review. Right?

[00:16:55.99] spk_2:
Yes. How absolutely

[00:17:10.44] spk_0:
was that? A heck yes. Is that you can say hell yes. Okay, Yes. Okay. We have another question on from twitter, um, reminding listeners, you can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non profit radio board members need to look at the impact of the organization and I guess this is for you, since you talked about impact. How do you measure if you’re meeting your mission or not? I guess she’s looking for a little more detail.

[00:17:22.20] spk_2:
Okay. Well

[00:17:24.42] spk_0:
obviously depends what your mission

[00:18:14.04] spk_2:
is. There are some standard benchmarks for how you’re doing. If you work with substance abuse, there are networks that do that, that can talk about ways of tracking your impact. For example, how many people come through a program get clean and stay clean if you are a food bank and you’re delivering food to the community. There’s a number of metrics there that come out of America. America’s harvest. I forget the name of the national network, but they’ll tell you how much money you should be spending more or less based on the population that you’re serving and how much he pounds of food you can put out into the community. Pretty much every nonprofit upset has some metrics that are relevant. And the trick is to learn the ones that are relevant type of organizations who, and then try and adapt them to your particular needs.

[00:18:18.52] spk_0:
And that would be important for the executive director to be recognizing certainly. And then right. And then conveying that to the board.

[00:18:25.04] spk_2:
Yes. And in some cases, depending on the size of the organization, there is some board work to help find those numbers. I mean, I work a lot with really small organizations who has, his staff are overwhelmed and would be great to say to a finance committee on a volunteer basis. I’m trying to figure out what the relevant metrics are for part type of organization who would be willing to do some research and bring that back to us aboard. But in a larger organization. Yeah, that’s going to fall the staff.

[00:19:01.64] spk_0:
One of the other questions we asked pre show, does your board have a committee devoted to financial issues? About 80% said yes and the remainder roughly 20% said No. Um, Nancy, does there, does there have to be a finance committee?

[00:19:48.74] spk_1:
Um, there does not have to be a finance committee. I think it really depends on the size of the organization. Um, the level of support that the director might need. You know, how complex the organization is and uh, also how savvy uh, the board is. If most of the board understands financials and feels quite comfortable with it in a small organization, um, you could get away without a finance committee. I’d say you want one in any organization that’s about to undertake any kind of major financial growth or change or, um, uh, new initiative um, in a larger organization. Um, it just is a great way to assist, um, either the finance manager or the executive director and developing budgets and exercising oversight because things don’t happen is exactly as people plan them to

[00:20:17.64] spk_0:
with me today are Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman co authors of the board members easier than you think guide to nonprofit finances. Um, let’s, let’s talk some about diversifying income sources uh, nancy, you make a point of having that in a couple of chapters of the book. Um why is that important first?

[00:20:30.64] spk_1:
You never want to be totally reliant on just one funder. Um You don’t want to be in a situation where um, if that one funder suddenly says, we don’t like what you’re doing, um that you’re suddenly scrambling and having to find uh, other ways to support your activities and your programs and what you do for the, for folks in the community.

[00:21:01.74] spk_0:
I think we’ve seen a lot of that in, in our recession, uh, agencies that rely exclusively or too heavily on, say, government fees for services or maybe even government agency grants or, and, or foundation grants, uh, those of all sources that have been cut

[00:21:44.34] spk_1:
back. Indeed, that’s true. And that’s part of what, um, it’s both diversifying types of financial support, but also, um, the number of supporters within each type, so you’re not totally reliant on just one foundation or one charitable donor, um, and, uh, and that you have that diversity of donors and foundations and government and, uh, your own revenues, If there’s a way for you to do that.

[00:22:06.74] spk_0:
We have a comment again from twitter. Um, just gonna point out to, uh, the person who wrote that, john that we did talk earlier about individual personal liability for non profits. You may have missed that part of the show, but you can always catch it on the archive on ITunes and our itunes pages. non profit radio dot net. Um Then

[00:22:08.54] spk_3:
what are

[00:22:09.81] spk_0:
Andy some of the sources of income that a nonprofit might look to that they’re not currently exploiting.

[00:23:09.44] spk_2:
There’s three big buckets here. tony The first book, It is private giving. Private giving is foundations, corporations, individuals and of course people leave behind when they pass away the big category there as individuals and within private giving about 80% of the money. Year after year comes from people and most of the groups that I work with don’t invest enough time and energy raising money from individual donors. So that’s the first category. Second category is public funding, that’s government funding from earl state, local, regional, municipal, all the government levels. And as you already indicated, this is a shrinking resource right now. And the groups that I think are getting hammered the worst during the recession or the that are relying on government. The third bucket is earned income, which is non profits arching for the services they provide are in some cases selling goods community and of the three, that’s the biggest of all this is sort of the surprise for people is that earned income is about the same amount as private and public funding put together when you look at all the nonprofit across the country.

[00:23:24.14] spk_0:
That’s interesting. Yeah. You don’t generally see that in in fundraising reports like giving us a earned income is not part of their

[00:23:29.40] spk_2:
private philanthropy. They’re very clear the numbers a little skewed because if you’re a private college and you’re charging tuition that shows up as earned income if you’re a private hospital and you’re charging a nonprofit hospital, you’re charging for medical services that shows up as earned income. So those numbers really sort of skew the data. But I work with a number of organizations where I’m always pushing them to say, is there something you do that you can package up and sell you have some skill that people would buy from you?

[00:23:59.24] spk_0:
It’s time for a break.

[00:24:57.64] spk_3:
Turn to communications, where would you like to be heard? News outlets, conferences, podcasts, blogs, that’s all earned media and turn to, can help you get it. They’ve got the relationships. What about your media that’s owned media turn to, can help you improve that as well because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony Take two planned giving accelerator is the online membership community that I have created to teach you how to launch your planned giving program. I’ll teach you step by step through trainings, live trainings, resources, podcasts, Ask me anything sessions. All of those are each month and we will get your plan giving

[00:25:00.08] spk_0:
program launched

[00:26:01.64] spk_3:
members of the first class, the one that started in january. Some of them already had gifts by three months in by March, so that three months into a 12-month class gift commitments already coming. So that can happen for you to you can be getting gift commitments in the first three months. The next class starts July one. I have priced this very reasonably, Especially when you consider, well, first of all, it’s just reasonable. But then when you consider that the average charitable bequest is $35,000. Take a look, it’s all at planned giving accelerator dot com And that is Tony’s take two. Yeah, we have boo koo but loads more time for B. F. D. Board financials dilemma. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:26:05.74] spk_0:
Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman with me. We’re talking about BFG board financial dilemma. Andy earned income. What can a charity possibly do? What you should be looking at to try to make some money off their activities their work?

[00:26:24.94] spk_2:
Well, the question I always ask groups that are wondering about this is what do you have, what do you do or what do you know somebody else ought to have or do or no most non profit during the service business. We deliver services. Sometimes we have expertise in that area and you know I mean there’s a structured brainstorm that people can do around this. A lot of what we do in the nonprofit world is pivot away and the really entrepreneurial organizations look at what they’re giving away and they say paying market for this and you know we can we can spend the rest of the show talking about this. I don’t know if you want to, but there’s a lot of opportunities there and I see many, many organizations could be more self sufficient financially if they got at figuring out what they know and how to package it up.

[00:27:18.01] spk_0:
Is there an example you can share with us a charity that didn’t realize what they had and and then ended up being able to exploit it and make some money from it?

[00:28:14.04] spk_2:
Well, I’m an author of a book on this subject called selling social change and what’s my favorite example of this? Um, you know, I’m for a group for years in Tucson Arizona called Native Search. Their seed banks on native american crops and you know what they do is protect beats from going extinct by planting them and growing them and distributing them and probably 30% of their of their income. It’s details, their seed bank and they sell it. What they recently started doing, which was fascinating is they opened something they called the school and these are people who want to learn about how to protect seeds, grow them, pass them on to the next generation’s really about biological and genetic. Pay money and they come to Arizona for a week and they get trained and everything you need to know to run your own seed bank. And it’s an organization that was sitting on this for probably 30 years, only recently realized that people would pay for that knowledge in a classroom setting. They

[00:28:29.49] spk_0:
have been doing that all for

[00:28:30.41] spk_2:
free. They hadn’t been training other people, they’ve been taking care of the seeds, but they hadn’t been teaching. I see, okay. And they realized there are a whole renaissance of local agriculture in our country right now and they thought we could tap into this. There’s a market here for people who want to learn how to do this. And so they started doing this and they’re doing this four or five times a year and it sells out and they’re starting to move it around to other parts of the country. So that’s one example.

[00:28:54.90] spk_0:
That’s an example of knowledge. They had a knowledge and a skill that was very marketable.

[00:29:12.54] spk_2:
That’s right. And until you have what you need for better worse is you need someone in the organization who has an entrepreneurial jean who can look around and say, you know what, somebody’s going to want to buy this. And not every nonprofit is blessed with people who think that way. And I think part of what nancy and I are trying to do in our professionalized is to get more of that thinking out into the nonprofit community way

[00:30:07.24] spk_0:
and the related to uh diversifying income. I I had a comment from linked in this, uh, woman had just had a board meeting this earlier this week regarding the need for transparency and distribution of responsibility. When it comes to the finances, bookkeeping and reporting function of their historic nonprofit theater, they’ve been doing their thing. Uh, they’ve been doing things their way a long time. And one big problem is that they have a banker on the board and he doesn’t see the problems. Um, uh, so it sounds like, and and then she says, I was able to get the check writing privileges moved to another person. This is sort of segue into a conflict of interest conversation, but sounds like maybe he was the only one writing checks. Um, I secured a nice grant from a foundation and they want a financial audit. I’m moving for a review. However fear we won’t get any more money once it’s known how ignorant the board is about accountability uh nancy. Uh And he’s laughing nancy. Let’s bring you back. What would you what would you say there?

[00:31:44.94] spk_1:
Well you know how are we defining accountability here? Is there a lack of what a financial audit might uncover? Um Is impropriety? But it sounds like that’s not the case. Um More likely it’s going to um It’s not the financial audit per se but the form 9 90 that you file with the I. R. S. Which ask you now to tell us, does does the boards look at financials um How does is the board of informed, has the board seen an audit? Um uh Did they review it and approve? Um It’s really um you know there there’s sort of two sets of questions. The very pragmatic, did did you get an audit? Did you review it? Did you look at it? Um And then the more important question in my mind, which I think is the question we’re trying to answer with the whole book, which is, does the board really understand what all these numbers are telling them? And ideally with with a financial audit and accountant has come in and um, spoken directly with the board of directors and walked through each and every page of it and talked about why the financials are the way they are and what they mean. Um And I think both Andy and I have seen numbers of organizations where um there’s a lot of people sitting around the table and they leave it to the banker, um or the investment professional to, you know, they they know about numbers and they handle it and it’s really something that everybody needs to know how to do. Um, if only to make sure that the mission of the organization is uh, fully addressed by the board and the organization.

[00:32:28.44] spk_0:
This also relates to the conversation about diversifying income. I mean, here this woman, uh, I believe she’s a fundraiser, there, a volunteer fundraiser and uh, trying to diversify income source, getting a grant but fearful that the grant may not be renewed because there isn’t transparency and accountability that the, the the grant source will probably be seeking.

[00:32:45.74] spk_2:
And this is another point that was raised, sort of came out of sideways. Is this question about separation of duties, which is, you know, in a healthy organization, people break up that work. One person opens the envelope and somebody else writes the checks and somebody else approves them and somebody else gets the bank statement and balances the checkbook. And the idea here is that you’re trying to avoid mischief and fraud and if somebody says, oh I’ll take care of all of these things, maybe they have good intentions and they’re going to be perfectly honest about it. But you really need to break that into separate pieces so people can have oversight over each other.

[00:33:15.64] spk_0:
Let’s segue into the conflict of interest, um, Andy defined for us. What a conflict of interest is here. It’s so often,

[00:33:58.74] spk_2:
Well, my sense of it, at least in terms of the context we’re having here, is that if you serve on a nonprofit board, your job is to put the needs of the organization above your own personal needs. And where this plays out sometimes is people who try and receive a benefit from serving on a board. That the personal benefit that has nothing to do with advancing the mission of the organization. Where this gets tricky is that in a lot of voluntary organizations, there are inherent conflicts of interest. But if you goes to a private school and you’re on the board, your job is to advocate for policies that are going to benefit the Children in the school, and in some case that means they’re going to benefit your kid individually and sort of sorting those things out can be challenging. But the bottom line is the decisions you make have to put the needs of the organization in front of your own personal need

[00:34:19.83] spk_0:
nancy. How can we try to avoid conflicts of

[00:35:47.04] spk_1:
interest? One of the best ways is to have a written conflict of interest policy where you’ve already addressed some of the situations that are likely to happen before they happen, um, where you sit there and say, you know, define what it is that is seen as either a real conflict of interest or perceived conflict of interest, which might be a case where um, somebody was, for example, can somebody bid somebody who serves on the board of directors bid on a project while they’re still on the board of directors or not? Or do they have to resign before they even submit a bid? Or do they only resign if they’re awarded the bid, or do they have to resign? Or can they simply step out of the room for the discussion? Um Those are the kinds of questions that got kind of uh can get kind of challenging, um, particularly when any member of the board stands to benefit financially, um, from any decision of the board. Um That’s uh an outright in my mind and outright conflict of interest. Um, and, um, in most boards, you want to make sure that person doesn’t participate. And it’s, it’s always easier to have that discussion, um, when there isn’t a hot potato sitting in the room, that’s, um, somebody’s thinking that they have every right to be part of the discussion. Um, and you have to therefore bring up both the fact that somebody in the room is feeling uncomfortable that this person is present. Um, and, um, it gets a little bit more tense in those sorts of situations. Prevention is having a written policy that folks have already talked through and everybody feels responsible for making sure it’s enforced.

[00:36:11.93] spk_0:
So prevention ahead of time much better than dealing with it when it’s a, a crisis or a potential crisis.

[00:36:13.83] spk_1:
Right? And, you know, it also, um, is the transparency issue you want to make sure that your presentation to the community at large is um, is as an accountable organization, um, that that gives everybody um equal opportunity to benefit from um, the organization’s purchases.

[00:36:34.49] spk_0:
Is this the kind of policy that a board member should sign and review every year or something

[00:37:00.13] spk_1:
like that? It’s not a bad idea. Oh, you know, it depends on the nature of the organization. I you know, I’ve worked with a community loan fund and that’s absolutely required that you disclose um your conflicts of interest each and every year and that you review the conflict of interest policy every year. Um The other thing that’s incredibly important is disclosed, disclosed, disclosed.

[00:37:05.21] spk_0:
We have just a minute before a break and anything you want to add to conflict of interest discussion.

[00:37:11.17] spk_2:
I think the main thing is that if you see it, you have to name it after. If your board member and you smell something like this, you have to have the courage to bring it up. And as nancy said, it’s much easier to do this if there is an existing policy in place first,

[00:37:23.56] spk_0:
if somebody sees something like this Andy again, just a few seconds before a break, who should they bring it up to you? I’m a board member. Who do I talk to?

[00:37:39.83] spk_2:
Probably go to the chair first and say, I think there’s something fishy here, let’s talk about it and I would start there and then presumably the board, the chair will bring it to the full board. Mhm. Mhm

[00:37:50.53] spk_0:
Welcome back to big non profit ideas for the other 95% on Tony-Martignetti non profit radio nancy, let’s talk a little about financial statements. What

[00:37:53.91] spk_3:
what uh what are the basics

[00:37:55.71] spk_0:
first, what’s the

[00:38:11.62] spk_1:
overview? Um there’s really two major statements that everybody um has to deliver ones the balance sheet, which is a snapshot on any given day. Um Typically the end of the month or the end of the quarter the end of the year, um Which outlines um what the organization owns and what they owe and what they’re worth, which is the difference between everything they own. Um less everything they owe um As far as its paper value is what they would be worth on that day. Uh The other major statement is the statement of activities, also called the profit and loss or A. P. And L. Um Which is where do you get all your money, your income, your revenues from. Um And then what does it go to pay for all your expenses? And the bottom line there is your net income at the end of and of a certain time period. Uh The statement of activities is more like a movie. It covers a period of time. Uh Typically uh the beginning of the year to the end of the most previous sorry the most recent months. Um So if we were on a board uh today we probably wouldn’t see the the statement of activities through the end of february because somebody would have had to have it all cleaned up as of yesterday, but we could expect to see something through the end of january. Um And depending on what your fiscal year was um would determine the beginning period.

[00:39:45.42] spk_0:
We talked earlier about full disclosure. So I’m gonna make a disclosure. The only accounting course that I’ve ever taken I dropped out of because I was I was I was going to fail. So um so I’m perfect for this book. This it’s very informative and it is an easy read and it is helpful guide um nancy help me understand this was always seem like magic to me on a balance sheet. How is it that the assets equal to the liabilities? How does that always come out? So equal? I mean uh it’s intended that way obviously, how does that

[00:40:01.35] spk_1:
possible? It seems like um now you’re asking somebody who was not trained as a classically trained accountants,

[00:40:07.75] spk_0:
you can’t pull back. Now your name is on the book, your name is there, I’m looking right at it says nancy Wasserman,

[00:40:12.49] spk_1:
but it’s um it’s based on double entry bookkeeping which was developed by the chinese and it’s uh follows up from the abacus and um really was sort of uh uh amplified by the Italians in the renaissance essentially when you put an entry in double entry book, keeping everything that goes up, something has to go down and uh it all balances out in the end and the cash comes out. And if your balance sheet that’s like number one, if the balance sheet, if the total assets does not equal the total liabilities and equity, um it is an incorrectly prepared balance sheet and they call it a balance sheet.

[00:40:51.96] spk_0:
Right? Yes, exactly, I love that my italian forebears had something to do with confusing me now in the current day. Um Okay, what how can we help uh Board members nancy, who whose eyes kind of glaze over when they get to the balance sheet, Aside from looking to see whether the two uh the assets and liabilities equal, which they always

[00:42:08.60] spk_1:
do right. Step number one, the balance. Um Number two, um Do your total current assets, in other words, what what can be cash within a year’s time, um exceed your current liabilities? The things you have to pay off with cash in a year’s time. And so are you liquid or not? Do you have, do you have cash available to do things? Um This is the place where you’re looking for those payroll liabilities or payroll tax liabilities. If there’s a number there that’s frighteningly large, um you’ve got a big problem and if it’s payroll tax liabilities, um you as a board member may be personally liable. Um What are your long term liabilities look like? Is that that’s your debt basically. And you know, does it make sense to you? Is that number reflects the debt? You know the organization has um your net net assets. Now, you know the language of accounting is kind of like greek and um I sometimes think they made up all these names to make it even more confusing.

[00:42:17.36] spk_0:
It would be so much easier if it was, it was italian,

[00:42:19.74] spk_1:
it could be,

[00:42:21.37] spk_0:
it would be, it would, there’s lots of cognitive and it’s a romance language. I think it would be, I’m sorry.

[00:42:56.20] spk_1:
No problem. But that total net assets number, which simply means, you know what this organization more. Um, if it, if it had to liquidate today and um, if that’s a negative number, you should be concerned. Um, and, and there’s certainly many organizations where that is the case. Um, so those are the big things on the balance sheet. You know, does it, does, it sort of makes sense to you to the fixed assets and their value. Um, feel like what you have if you suddenly see something that shows that you have a fixed asset of, you know, equipment worth $100,000 and you’re scratching your head because you have no idea what you have for equipment. Um, Something’s wrong with the balance

[00:43:10.68] spk_0:
and you should and should ask that question. Absolutely. You mentioned earlier frighteningly large numbers, I mean, is part of what we should be doing, looking for anomalies.

[00:44:01.79] spk_1:
Um That’s really what you’re looking. You’re looking for things that, you know, that don’t make sense or don’t feel right or that you can’t um if you can’t, if it doesn’t feel right and you can’t really explain it, you want to ask questions. Um, and, and the numbers, you know, the thing about numbers is um, they’re pretty um, they’re very, you know, they’re either on or off and um, it’s harder to lie with numbers. Um, so you’re gonna know right away that you could have frighteningly large numbers with a, with a complex organization and that would be fine. Um, if if they’re they’re balanced out, if there’s cash in the bank, if it feels like there’s equity.

[00:44:37.09] spk_0:
Mm This is a critical subject. Another question that I asked on the, on the pre pre show survey is for those charities that do have a board committee devoted to financial issues. Are you confident that each committee member is fluent in your numbers and understand your financial position? Only 25% said yes. The remaining 75% were either no or not sure and no was pretty large. About 60%. We have to stop there. Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman are co authors of the board members easier than you think. Guide to nonprofit finances published by Emerson and Church Andy Nancy. Thank you very much for being guests.

[00:44:50.52] spk_1:
Thank you Tony.

[00:44:56.59] spk_0:
Thanks for having us. It’s been a real pleasure. And also thanks to your publisher, Kathleen Brennan at Emerson in church for her promotion assistance for the show.

[00:45:35.69] spk_3:
That was fun. A bit of nostalgia. I had to keep in a short burst of eye of the tiger had had to do that. Thank you for ramping back in time with me Next week. Our 2021 nonprofit technology conference coverage continues. Oh, conference coverage continues. I like that. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o.

[00:45:49.59] spk_5:
Our creative producer is Clan Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm Right, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the

[00:45:56.39] spk_3:
Other 95

[00:45:58.99] spk_5:
go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for December 22, 2017: Recruiting Your Next CEO

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Dennis Miller: Recruiting Your Next CEO

“As a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer.” So starts the book, “A Guide To Recruiting Your Next CEO.” Whether you’re on a board or work with one, you need to know what’s what for this critical duty. Author Dennis Miller walks us through.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of cattle lep c if you tried to hypnotize me into the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your next ceo as a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be the hyre your chief executive officer. So starts the book a guide to recruiting your next ceo, whether you’re on a board or work with one, you need to know what’s what for this critical board duty author dennis miller returns to walk us through on twenty state too next month’s non-profit radio we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant and by wagner. Sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers wittner, cpas, dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com tell us turning payment processing into your passive revenue stream tony dot m a slash tony tell us i’m glad that i can welcome dennis miller back then a c miller he’s, a strategic leadership coach and executive search consultant with more than thirty five years experience working with non-profit board leadership and chief executives across the country. He’s, managing director of the non-profit search group, an executive recruiting firm. His latest book, his fifth, is a guide to recruiting your next ceo. The executive search handbook for non-profit boards you’ll find dennis and his book at dennis c miller dot com he’s at dennis c miller and i’m very glad that his book brings him back to non-profit radio. Welcome back, dennis c miller happy to be back, tony way happy well happened years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you what does the sea foreign dennis, c miller, dot com and charles that’s my father’s name. So, so many dennis mellows and grammar school in high school, we put my seeing and i’m very proud to be a similar dennis charles. All right, you don’t mind if i don’t call you tennessee miller the whole hour, though, i just call me yet that it’s anything you’re like. Okay, now. Dennis overviewing i just have to be it has to be anymore denigrating the dentist, then it’s fine, now you’re by phone, you’re in, you’re in los angeles, is that right? Yeah, i’m actually in the los angeles area of isn’t that it’s a business appear this week and now we’re spending time. My wife and i went our two sons on their families and grandson out here and los angeles and heading up to santa monica santa monica pier, right after the show. So good. All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want take off now, we can just back the whole thing. Did you do you need to go public transportation is going to leave in five minutes or something or you’re okay. You’re okay for the hour. Okay. Now remember the last time you were here? You almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. Your your, um your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You needed a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to los angeles. And this way you can call him by phone. Well, okay, you don’t. Worry about running running to the studio. Okay, okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what i was saying? I really have no salmon. Naralo were had a regular. You may have. No, you did. You had a high. You’re definitely out of my heart because your face was red. All right, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome? Well, think about it that there’s probably over a million more more than a million non-profits around the country and with the number of people that are just paid to retire over the next five plus years on any research, uh, just staggering sometimes close a seventy five percent. The ah the vast majority of people went into the non public sector and leadership positions where baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the communion. So there’s, a lot of retirement going on, and the the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next ceo. And then on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing, so it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit the next ceo that’s why i wrote the book ok, seventy five percent turnover in the next ten years we’re going to have i’m probably less i mean, it’s, it’s quite a bit, if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, where you know it’s now two thousand, you know, seventeen and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needed get latto leadership so it’s going to be required for this sector. Now, one of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hyre a such consultant now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book you’re biased, but, you know, can you weigh the pros and cons for us? You know, so i’m biased certainly wasn’t if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, i think the book will help them with that for sure you want to go in alone is this year. You have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s going to be needed for the board members, too? Not only identify the profile of the next candidate, but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved that lay out those except in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures that they’re going to be paying and most trees probably in area someplace between twenty to thirty five percent are cases. Twenty five that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet. So you want to have an expertise this like anything else? If he needed a lawyer of financial account, you’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own and the other aspect, tony, uh, for people who want to go about on their own is by just posting sort of adds a social media. Whatever you going toe on ly get the people that are looking for a job. And you know no either how good they are. However performing they are. Well, if they’re happy, a search from is going to recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What i have that those percentages thatyou quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is that yes. So someone makes ah a position whether the ceo our c f o r development amglobal to say the position i was one hundred thousand dollars. You know, the average three is going to be, you know, twenty five thousand dollars. But if this day five years it’s five thousand dollars a year which comes out to be about a hundred dollars a week or twenty hours of any and, you know the thing about it’s, probably the smartest investments that aboard would want to make. Okay, noah particularly because the right person and they stay for a period of time. It it’s okay. And i guess the main advantage of going on your own is your saving that fee. Well, you saving the fee, but you also, you know, better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna have that so that you poisoned cons here, but most most really good organizations will use the search from for certain keys positions. Okay, okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before ah, first break, dennis so let’s, just identify that this ceo change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so, this could be an opportunity, a great opportunity. Well, that’s, how you look at him and i were doing a search right now when we’ve got the finalists been seen by the search committee and in beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm. And, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from, you know, not a crisis, too. This is a phenomenal opportunity, too. I just take it, get a new leader. But i have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while. Or fairly new it’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So it if the glass is half full it’s i look at it is very exciting times one organization, most clients feel the same way, all right? And we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this right now. Time to take a break pursuant. Proven strategies for stewardship. That is their oh so timely webinar replay for you stewardship strategies, because lots of people giving right this quarter this month how do you keep them giving year after year after year? You know how costly it is to lose donors and replace them. We know nationwide that donor attrition is around seventy five percent annually. Sad that’s ah that’s supposed to be ah, supposed to be our president tweeting sad. But if you have to tell the judge, you have to tell what it is then it doesn’t work. Ah, but but maybe it did work. I’m not there to listen to you laugh. So maybe it worked out fine, so i didn’t need to. Rachel and kathy are going to give you examples of top thank you’s. They talk about automation without sacrificing personalization. They have free templates for you to use. And if you don’t mind, i would like to throw in that the value. Of the personal touch of handwritten notes for your special donors, all proven stewardship strategies. You’ll find that webinar at tony dahna em, a slash pursuant capital p now, back to dennis miller and his book, recruiting, ah, guide to recruiting your next ceo and dennis similar so let’s, talk about that. That possibility for assessment. You, uh, you say that you might. I considered doing strategic planning. I guess if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next ceo. Yeah, well, the you know, the question always is, you know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do your hyre our ceo or d’you hyre our chief development officer before you have a plan and and kind of it’s up it’s up to the client, the organization, but give you a couple examples, whites sort of better toe at least an idea of where you want to go and what you want to achieve. So let’s say, uh, you want it, you go out and hyre ceo hoping that day will build your plan and let some party of plan is to be more involved in philanthropy maur involved in cultivating. So seeing donors? What if that seo hee just hyre doesn’t have that experience will now you’re stuck. So what if your needs is to grow? You’re bored and you, seo yi sa doesn’t have that so one of the things that i recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan, but certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision where you had it, where you want to head, what some of the big strategic goals you have, um, what things that you need to get done, and then obviously it’s much easier to in to identify that the characteristics on the qualities and experience of the ceo. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for your organization. So that’s, why it’s important to take a look at kind of way you want to go before you just went on board? You say that if you’re not going to do a full, full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are? Yeah, i mean, i think there are some people that, you know don’t do oppcoll bonem metoo plan, i think that you could do that, but i think more importantly, uh, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life, uh, cycle as an organization and as a board um, and then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of where you’re at that helped us for magically beginning the onboarding plus is what your next ceo? So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind, so i do think that you wanna have, and i point this out in the book, you want to have a sense of your strategic vision, we’re heading and pick up some of the key goals you’re having here. So when you’re interviewing kayman thatyou want, make sure they’re lined with those gold here and it makes a much smoother transition, some of the goals you you lay out besides mission envision our fund-raising and development, you know what you want do around that you’re bored ceo relationship, your programs and services and of course, you know, the book explains what goes into detail on each of those, but, um, yeah, i would have a couple of it, certainly. You know, your organizational capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have ah plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you border. You’re building the right board. Are you branding the organization and communicating with the impact you’re having is important things today. So there’s a lot of ah, strategic goals, that one. Should be having with this process and you want to get a sort of buy-in from your board and have the new ceo committed help temple with this upleaf and okay, so this new ceo is gonna have need to have some skills on dh you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing ceo are. We want to be thinking beyond that, i mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is going to do is help you look forward, not current, you know, you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current ceo’s talents, but you want to build on those for the future and you identify a whole bunch of, you know, potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit, relationship builder, etcetera. But you want to be going beyond the current? Yeah, i mean, it’s easy question when you have someone, you know, you know what kind of kind of see what you’re looking for? And then the person who has been in the job, you know, for the past ten, fifty years, your name is surely people we’d like someone like charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that you previously eoe had maybe sell it, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that i have in the book, in another books, in my work i do, tony is the idea of today’s competencies for ah, executive leadership in on public sector, dramatically different than they were five, ten years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past. You know, aboard we’ll look for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relation of in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out get a grant. Though their skills are still important today, they look for more than just skills. But competition traits such as they want a visionary thinker today, when the past the ceo or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for ceos to create their own vision cream organization. I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of grey. Division number two certainly. People want the idea of relationship will the building relationships outside inside the organization? Uh, someone who’s, a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is in partnership that you need not just managed him when you got so is the whole siri’s of conferences that identifying the book, including, you know, today being a collaborate it’s, not about how big of a budget you have in control it’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass out there for ceos and executive represented, but i use the term song with ceo. Exactly. Director? Yeah. That’s a fair that’s. Fair fares. Similarities. Of course. I did have a guest years ago. Eugene fram. He was a professor that i think he was a university of rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the ceo. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and ceo. That chief executive makes it less likely. Now it doesn’t make no guarantee, but less likely that board members will get involved in the nitty gritty the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging ceo versus an executive director? I don’t. Do you have any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one. Over the other day, i d’oh you know, tony it’s a point you’re raises a really good one. And i do highly in the book of my work. But i do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer. Um, the more contemporary title is bored shiver support president what you kind the past is, um, it may just be words, but i think they have a lot of connotations. They do hide them so i’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top late personal pipe paid for sex should be the president ceo. And i think that was provoc pulawski right there when you’re out there with donorsearch oh, it’s more than just an executive director overseen the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen? I do. I do before the words ceo cubine taking andi also executive director. I mean that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non-profit terms way wanted to think that running like businesses run. This thing like a business happens. To be a nonprofit corporation. But don’t tell this to run like a business on my other interviews with you came up the term, you know, non-profit attacks that business plan, i think it’s important that today’s title be ceo. I just really think that important title they have let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing. Well, clearly, i think the this you know that in terms of size of dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on such absolute who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experienced with search maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good that’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of, you know, twelve to fifteen people, you may one of the search committee of maybe five, you know, maybe seven maximum, but i’ve seen larger or smaller. Um, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two, uh, be tremendous amount. Of time commitment so the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be in involvement here in some time, and then obviously, the key part of that will be who will be your chair, the search committee, in some cases it’s, a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, a lot of people ask me all the time. Would it be ok, though? Has the form of a former board chair? A starita search for money and i would say maybe i would say maybe on ly, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for the future and not somebody think of something because they won’t know like what they’re looking for, yeah, this’s committee’s got to be a forward approaching organization, afford protect committee so i think that’s kind of that that’s something to think that i would be looking for a nose of membership. What about an employee putting one one employee on the committee? I don’t think that’s a good idea, actually, i think it’s a bad idea to come out writer bae and say not well, give example. Okay, uh, i’ve had people wondering to put, you know, uh, you know, the current ceo on the search committee, and the answer is no, that law office of the current ceo, maybe and help in the search committee and the consultant or either inside or outside of the search committee helped develop aspects of the position provoc what will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next ceo? But the board hires and fires a ceo um it’s also very uncomfortable before a current ceo to be on the search committee. I had a case where it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that i helped with succession planning in they had internal candidate for the position. And when the search committee, as this person, what changes would you make she’s very awkward to be talking about the change you want to make with theo? Of course, right. So i have. But now, those times when you get there, some people have their v p of hr on the search committee if they need it lays on. But remember, people it’s not a good idea. Has staff it’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his boardmember dahna okay, predominately. And then you said maybe a volunteer. I love you. He needs expertise. I mean, if you know if you’re going to not have a search committee and may sometimes people can hyre a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But i think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that type of thing so you can build it up with the great. Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is going to be maintained, right? You want a crucial because on i make it clear to all my such you could be. You could be sued for. Ah, um, you could be potentially have a lot of liability for exposing that. There is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way. You know, tony is it’s been interviewing for me and and before you know it, tony’s, you know, employer finds out, you know, feels like this oil is the prom. So you have to protect confidentially, it’s something that i have to establish the trust of my chance coming in, derek, they’re they’re adamant, and it’s just goes with the same goes with the business, i have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a job. Yeah, and this goes part me, tio, some of the time commitment, you know, if if there isn’t a, uh, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is going to be after hours, people are going to be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six p m yeah, after the day i’ve had, you know, i mean, our business is growing tremendously, what’s what’s going on, but, you know, when people say yeah, you know, maybe i’ll do it myself, but listen, if you can, if you know it’s up to you but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what the third, if you want up with the outreach to potential candidates is very time consuming if you’re going to delegate that members of the search committee a wall so, you know, professionals are working or even retired it’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people, it’s a lot of time of all the narrow and candidates down and doing the reference, checking it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in a process, not just putting it out there and then, you know, interview case it’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity that’s really important, which is when i was just going to point out that you say some things that caught my eye was very, very interesting i hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation. So our role teo, be selling the applicants on the organization not just to be not just to be a neutral a neutral committee, but be advocates for the auriga yeah, i mean, the candies are going to come in, they’re gonna come in prepared and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, jeez, i thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best? Thing since sliced bread. Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need candy it’s, goingto, besides what the search consultant is going to be telling them about the organization recruiting for as a search committee, i remember that you want to be portraying avery plaza of image. You want to be sort of extending your hand, you want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome and warm, even if you’re not going to be selected them. And you noted, under process, you want to believe what a very positive feeling for donorsearch that’s, a major altum search committee acid. All right, interesting let’s, move, teo, resume screening. You’ve got you’ve got a ton of tips, you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of, but you’ve got you’ve got a lot of tips to share, share a couple of resume screen tips. Now we’re at that stage that these things were coming in. Just repeat that, tony. I’m sorry about a lot of people coming in. Resume resumes. A lot of resumes coming out sametz share share a couple of resume screening tips. Oh, couple things one of you want to look for clary right off the bat. Eyes cloudy. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get ahold of you? You don’t always have to have your home accuracy stays, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think i look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where where’s your career, ben and a couple of tips. You look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly that that’s a signal textile, red flag, red flag and it were bad thing. But it should be there. The other thing that, uh, those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences. But you never get a sense of where they performed that. So two things on a resume. Both. For people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for position or respond to a search from is clary, is the resume clear of what i’ve accomplished? Is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have? And i think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that really yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise children absolutely was a caregiver was a caregiver for pareles that was concerned about a gap, and i said, just tell me you have a phd in parenthood. I mean, i’d be proud to be apparent way we don’t have parents, we don’t, you know, keep going, so i think it’s a totally appropriate but be honest with what you don’t want to do, it’s, not the cover things up here, and so then, you know, present yourself in a positive tone, but certainly be honest, if you took a couple of years out or timeout to raise children to be proud of it, and so you did, but these skills and bring back the table and begin the work force, i think it’s implying with that, let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off when you see people with email addresses that are hotmail or a o l does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology? No, i don’t, you know, not any detail. Why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business emails and their personal emails, and so they don’t want ah search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into there. Professional at work email like, yeah, no, i get that. I’m okay with the email accounts. It’s, when i see you know, dennis at, you know, big love of dot com i have eyes that see you. I’m gonna try that one. Yeah, okay, but wait. Yeah. And then when the e mails that are unprofessional, like baby cakes, you know, but yeah, i don’t want to be the case. That field. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right, i think it’s okay does to protect your you know, your private from work, i think that’s. All right, but let me ask you, but but my point was if it’s an added you know, sort of an out of date domain like jool or hotmail or yeah, who you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology it’s possible? I know nothing about that. If that you know, if you have an out of the email address and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address on minutes at a oh, well, i mean, i’m fine with that. I’m fine with that. All right. As long as not baby cakes today. Well, all right. Way to take a break. Regular cps. I got a testimonial for you, quote. I was new at my position when i began working with wagner cpas. My confidence has grown knowing that i can rely on the professionals of wagner to answer any questions and make recommendations that will ensure the success of our non-profit. And you see, i always say they go beyond the numbers. This’s the truth. It comes out right here in the testimonials, we were given sound advice enabling us to increase investment income while at the same time protecting assets. Tony. Inserts a question. Does your audit firm do that for you? Recommending investment investment alternatives for you? I trust and respect our audit team and look forward to their annual visit end quote, how many do you look? I’m dying to know. Do you look forward? Your annual audit that’s probably more like dreading your annual audience, but somebody from this midsize religious organization in the midwest looks forward to their annual audit. You can to check out wagner, regular cpas dot com apolo software you’re non-profit but you used accounting software made for business stop wasting your time using business accounting software for your books like quickbooks turbo cash asap microsoft they’re not made for you. They don’t do fund accounting for you. They’re built for businesses apple owes accounting is designed for non-profits it’s in the dna for tired for pete’s sake it’s in a dna easy, affordable and you need thio use to check out the pricing. By the way, it is quite reasonable non-profit accounting for you, they’re at non-profit wizard dot com now time for tony steak too. Next month on non-profit radio you’re twenty eighteen planning if you want free business coaching in twenty eighteen we’ll have a guest from score he’ll be telling you all about it. You’re online giving plan for twenty eighteen joe garrick, the fund-raising authority will be with me. Where’s, the new tax law mean for your overall twenty eighteen fund-raising plan. Jean takagi is going to parse it out for us. How about in twenty eighteen? You get free software and consulting from oracle net suite. The vp of their social impact team will be on plus maria and reassemble course. You know her aimee semple board. You know her with their twenty eighteen plans. It’s all in january. Or you need to do is listen. And that lovely is listener is tony steak too? And doesn’t that sound like live listener? Love is coming up. Indeed. You were right would reach new jersey. Woodbridge, i want you to identify yourself. I demand it. Otherwise you have to stop listening. I want to know who this season. 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How about those podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand of you, the vast majority of our audience that’s where you’re listening and pleasantries go to you. Thank you, podcast listeners for being with us and i am and fm affiliate listeners throughout the stations throughout the station’s well throughout the stations throughout the world yeah, throughout the country anyway. Throughout the stations throughout the country affections, affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners in those stations throughout the states throughout the country, affections to you. Dennis miller’s with us, you know him, we’re talking about his book, a guide to recruiting your next ceo, you know, we can we can cover the whole book, so just get the thing we’re going to say, you know, it’s, a dentist, see miller dot com that’s where you’ll find dennis in this book just get the damn thing, it’s just that i don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right. Anyway, denis let’s, continue our our joint through, um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when they really don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things we’re looking for? They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability? Absolutely. I mean, the tv process. Once we screen people in terms of resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone into the process and we can get a better sense of with they are as a potential candidate, we may explain a final car. Weather at one of salary package so without wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on the team builders over there? You know, ah, they collaborators of the communicators and then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results? And i think those two things is what kind of, you know, separates the people who get to positions and those that don’t hear i we advised certainly the search committee on, you know, the question should be focused on limited tony to, you know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal, what things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game antionette glamarys also there too, things that are a crucial now one of things that you may ask me, i’ll just what answer ahead of time we have and your listeners can get their contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non-profit search dot com. We provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. Ah, what a total score fifty. And whether it’s on leadership, communications, street, strategic planning, board, relationships, etcetera. So when people of actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got forty eight people, suppose, you know, going in the search committee members can evaluate for people. And i have this matrix a kind of sense of where, you know, people come out scores and usually it’s a good tool that have for them. You have a lot of resources at the non-profits search dot com. So you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s, get into some details here. Now is the whole committee meeting with every every candidate. Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then i don’t think that doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets or going to judge people differently. Yeah, well, here’s what we do, um and, um the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates now in a case we just have here. Because it’s got multiple locations. There are actually eight people on, uh, a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which weiss but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meets somebody. Candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee. He’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of zoho so every every candidate should be seen by every person on the search committee. Absolutely. You you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit. You know, you don’t want to be asking. Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions. Yeah. You you don’t want to say, you know, you want to you want to engage him in conversation and they want to get you in a conversation two and so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current? Position on your most recent position. What was the you know, your biggest achievement? Hey, is an issue for us. How would you deal with it? You stay away from the yes and no questions. And we have, you know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here, you know, question to be asking, but yeah, not open it. Not not. Yes or no. Open ended questions. Engagement of conversation is the best of them. Okay, let’s say, we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s, our next step in the committee. Well, what you want to do is the one i have everybody’s gonna score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring. So you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is i have a conversation with this chair of the search committee. And then, uh, i will meet with the search committee. One of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee depending where the searches on what it’s for and then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates is one person they like, and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s. Two final plans. They’re not sure. So that there’s a process here. The process here is obviously too, uh, what? The other candidates know that they did well and they thank him before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience. That’s mohr meets the needs of my client. Ah, we hope to see him again the future and then focus in on, you know, having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making, making a final offered and employment contract employment agreement right now in this scoring, obviously somewhere going to score highest and high esten hyre than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, you know, even the highest scoring one or two, they’re just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like i said, every in a group of five somebody’s going to score the highest but but even that highest one, they just don’t feel right. You know, how do we we feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process. Well, have expressed happened. You know, only once in my recent experience, where in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and, you know, as you know, the millions and millions of people that serve our non-profit board throughout this country and in other countries and canada, you know, our bright, committed people they gotta see if you get a feel for you know who you think would fit in here. So usually, you know, the scores will help you because it gives us feedback. But usually you get a kind of a feeling you would be the best person for that. If there’s a situation, um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates. I absolutely would highly recommend that he go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. Uh, we started with believing out of pool of eighteen candidates, uh, middle down, teo wither down to eleven that was down to five and five people came in, and so with the entire team and that team in there of identified, you know, to people and long behold some discussion and some some time issues and then people not sure what decision to make and there was some inexperience on the team making the decision and they kind of planted and they just, uh, well, i’m not sure i’m ready to pull the trigger, so we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again, and usually you don’t get the great candidates again, and we did, and it worked out so it’s for some reason, you don’t feel it. I dont just say, well, because is a high score because you’re going to live with this person quarter what use with this not happen, tony, you, um you know, the search is doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate, but if a some reasons you feel that, you know, this is i just don’t feel it for this person is going to fit in here. Then don’t just pick someone because of scored the scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate? Is this a stage where we should be calling references now? We’ve we’ve narrowed it down to our top two or so, yeah, so what way? Well, a cz we get the final can’t wait do ask for a reference, but here’s, what we do, we don’t ask them, they could tell us who they’re going to use the reference we are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking for example, and a ceo case we know they can’t talk about the company, we’d like the house, then talk. We’d like to talk to someone who is a boardmember maybe a boardmember another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them, so, uh, we don’t always talkto the references i had a time, because if you’ve got, you know, four final candidates we spent about our time it’s that wee if you’re not going to be chosen, why go? Through the house full of asking people speaking the reference. But with your various final candidate, we actually do a thorough construct. And i have a little bit of a funny story that that you listen, um, you may enjoy just quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when i did my first search believing not thirty years ago. And i was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people. And there was a man, a woman. And i remember the, uh the man had sort of mohr experience, but the young woman has seemed like much more potential. Anyway, for some reason, the man had given me a list of ten references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me ten references, and i call it the first six references. Iss man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru by the time i got seven. Eight. I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time i got the nine and ten people were asking me, you know, why did you what did this guy even you? Give me a reference, i recommend anything, so the moral stories you want to keep, you know, kind of dig in here and it’s, certainly you have a right as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we do, um, and same time protecting confidential alley, but certainly, you know, we need to do with our research on them and in addition to references, we obviously do a check on educational credentials, and then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not teo regarding they want pursue, uh, feeling criminal background check will and credit credit risk of credit reports. It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of what was thirty years ago. We didn’t have work, but have we have word we’re going? We’re using them word perfect where you had toe right down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use like the last four we’re we’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we got to take a break, tell us credit card and payment processing. They have a video. Check out the video at tony dahna slash tony tello’s. It explains what the process of businesses switching to tell us is and how you the non-profit that refers them will get fifty percent of the revenue that tello’s urns that’s passive revenue for you your organization. Each month it talks about their one hundred percent satisfaction rate. They have a price match guarantee, but that’s in the video, but for non-profit radio listeners, you get way beyond a mere price match. If if tell us, can’t help, you’re the first referred business is by saving the money, not just matching but saving. Then you get that two hundred fifty dollars, that you’ve heard me talk about, so worth it for you very likely tell us we’ll be able to save the money, but just in case not you’re protected and so is the business. Really, because it’s still still then is helping you. In the video covers, free switching to tell us they have a ninety day easy out but tell us has a hundred percent satisfaction rate, so they’re not gonna need not gonna need the easy out ninety days. That means there and it’s free, but they’re not going to eat it, but it is there, but they’re not gonna need it. Think about the businesses that make sense for you to refer and check out the video at tony dot m a slash tony tell us now, back to dennis miller and his book, a guide to recruiting next ceo let’s continue our joint ajanta dennis okay, so we’ve checked references, references and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours and what their meeting some of the staff now too, and maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our services no, what we worked a man don’t do that metoo staff until they are having a place where we don’t really know sexuality you don’t. You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a ceo level. Uh, they have to pick the ceo if it’s another level? Certainly if it’s achieve opening office of chief financial officer it’s totally appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them. The finer who’s a better vet culture that’s line. Okay, but on a ceo though you are make it clear that the board is making the decision and i would not have staff involved on interviewing until all right. So who are they meeting that in thiss day when they’re going to visit the visit the site? Well, so many have gone to the search committee. Obviously, there is no one else to meet except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the ceo, which is what? We are way wrong that once a search committee has made decision before on offers made it’s what the search committee wants to do doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wantto search committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board and in many cases, and i will advise us is have that final ceo or in the case where this too close candidates committed meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants don’t waste the time of having to feel you have to bring a second one and you give it someone hope when is when they’re not probably going to be selected but i have an interesting story, tony, that you listen. May one here, uh, about a year ago we did a search for a ceo and the search committee had him ranked wanted to have this ah, woman rank one in a guy number two. And i had agreed with that recommendation thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate and some things came up in discussions. Then i think at the end of day they made the right decision. So don’t forget the board has a final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee xero recommended candidates, but do not hire a ceo from a search committee on ly they must meet the entire board. Have you ever heard of co ceos? Yeah, i have and i found it never. Well, couple times it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions, so both people take on the role of co ceo won, they have responsibility for maybe certain geography one than another o once focus more on one thing before not tow have it. I think coz ceos is like koh board chairs. It doesn’t make a feeling that anybody’s really in charge. Um, i’m working with an organization right now out in california because we do certainly national searches as well as in canada and, you know, there’s a transition going on and is this it the heart organization? It’s important to know who’s in charge? So if it has to happen and you’re particularly the merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally it sooner than later. It’s only a transition. You can’t have a co ceo doesn’t work. I’ve seen coach, chief development officer and it doesn’t work either. I mean, i think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion. Okay, way explored co ceos with jean takagi, so if anyone wants teo, get more on that. That was the main nineteenth twenty seventeen show with jean ok, alright, we, uh we it’s time to negotiate an offer we were ah, we’ve selected our top one you like guards, guidestar they have i don’t know if you mentioned i know them. Guide star has a has a good salary guide comes out every year. So it’s it’s current but you have other studies that you like? Yeah, a couple of things we have a good sense of what the marketplaces like different geography, maybe waken use guide star and i i like the organization well, but here’s the palm and it’s not guide, says the bomb is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest, complicated employees? It’s probably two years old, even if it says two thousand sixteen and you’re in seventeen, it may have been, you know well, about a june of two thousand fifteen, so i don’t rely upon that nestle as a guide for making offer. I know what the organization is looking to pay. I know what what the sally is. People that are looking and then we i advise uh, i’m involved in every ceo, so i advise my client is what i think it’s going to take to get the person i’ve seen clients do salary surveys using geiser and other things that committee from other compensations raised there’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that, you don’t know, uh, what the performance of the organization has been you don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what, how well they’ve done with fund-raising, you know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So on one of the advantages of a search for meditation now based upon the work they’re doing what what the rate is to attract some money and that’s kind of what we do. Okay, let’s, spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you know, you just got it by the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book, but i want to spend last couple minutes, just about two minutes or so on on onboarding this’s a board responsive board responsibility. Well, it’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to ceos, i mean half of them have never been on border. So what does? What does he mean by sort of onboarding candidate? Well, uh, our onboarding onboarding if you don’t get onboarding you get hired and then you start and then you go geez, i don’t know this is the way itwas, you know, you’re not supported in your new job. So dahna whatyou onboarding were first to the idea of preparing a ceo to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components of the new role and or to the board here, really very important that i be some type of onboarding process um, so as example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about what onboarding here is, um, let’s be clear. So both the board and the ceo and again, you could say the same thing about a ceo or cfo. What she development altum same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly that’s gonna come up during entry puss, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair want to communicate to the ceo? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other friday did they want emails or not emails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the ceo to accomplish in the first thirty days or sixty days, or maybe one hundred eighty days? Uh, what the cultural issues or financial is that the organization is facing, um, what senior members of the team may have some performances the watch out for who had the key stakeholders outside the organization like donors of all tears that you want to see how to make sure that building wishes, perhaps maybe with a local congress person or a member of the senate assembly here. Dennis, we’ve got to leave it there. There’s too much. All right, keep a melissa. Thank you, tony, for this. I appreciate you and all your happy holiday season and the great thank you so much, dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guide to recruiting your next ceo. You’ll find it at dennis c miller dot com and you’ll find him at dennis c miller next week. Happy new year. There is no live show affiliate listeners. You are covered. Of course we’re going to replay zombie. Loyalists. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant weinger sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, slam sam, sam the slam liebowitz is the line producer show social media is by susan chavez, and this very cool music is by scott stein of brooklyn’s. Thank you for that information, scotty with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 15, 2017: Run Like A Biz & Program Your Board

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Hillary Schafer: Run Like A Biz

Hillary Schafer brought her 12 years on Wall Street to the Jefferson Awards Foundation, where she’s executive director. She shares her ideas from building core infrastructure to employee policies. (Originally aired September 18, 2015.)

 

 

 

Gene Takagi: Program Your Board

Gene TakagiYour board probably recognizes its fiduciary responsibilities, but does it know its role in overseeing programs? Gene Takagi is our legal contributor and principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group (NEO). (Also aired September 18, 2015.)

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I need a pancreas. Ole affected me for last week’s pancreas volodya, sis, if you hard into me with the idea that you missed today’s show, run like a biz hillary shaefer brought her twelve years on wall street to the jefferson awards foundation, where she is executive director. She shares her ideas from building core infrastructure to employee policies that originally aired september eighteenth, twenty fifteen and programmed your board. Your board probably recognizes its fiduciary responsibilities, but does it know it’s rolling overseeing programs? Jean takagi is our legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo that also aired september eighteenth twenty fifteen tony’s take two five minute planned e-giving marketing responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com and by wagner cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit apple of accounting software designed for non-profits they’re at non-profit wizard dot com and we’d be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com here’s hillary schaefer run like a biz. I’m glad to welcome to the studio hillary schaefer. Prior to joining the jefferson awards foundation as executive director, she worked as the head of us institutional equity sales in new york. For citigroup, she was one of the highest ranking women in the equity business in the late nineties, she was the executive director of economic security two thousand fighting to save and remodel social security. The foundation is at jefferson awards dot org’s and she’s at beard hillary on twitter welcome hillary schaeffer. Thank you very much. Glad you’re in the studio. Thanks to be here. Eight and a half months pregnant. Eight and a half months pregnant. We got you at the right time. What what’s behind this twitter id beard? Hillary it’s. My maiden name is beard. Okay, until re beard was taken, i presume and hillary beard is probably taking swiped by some. I had that done on youtube. Some joker i hope he was named tony martignetti stole the channel name tony martignetti and i have you riel tony martignetti but he doesn’t use it. So it’s ah, people don’t have trouble finding me? Not that anyone’s looking, but if they were looking, they wouldn’t have trouble finding me on youtube. Um, tell me about wall street what’s it what’s it like making a living equity say institutional equity sales what’s it like, what does that mean, that’s that place, like, actually, frankly, loved it. I did it for twelve years. I went into wall street thinking i would do it for two. Yeah, we’re really, really fell in love for long enough to stay for twelve instruction equity sales is basically where you manage the relationships for the largest institutional investors who invest in stocks. Okay, so on behalf of citigroup, so on you’re like, on account, uh, liaison to big companies buying stocks. Sort of. Yes, i minimize their eyes like so egregiously. Okay, clearly egregiously. So, what do you how do you how do you keep big institutional buyers happy? What you have to do, too, with more of their blackness is making money, right? So investing in stocks that go up and shorting stocks that go down. And so ah, lot of the business of the equity business of citigroup is to provide really good insights and ideas and research into the companies that they care about and delivering that content into your clients in a way which is consumable. Smart fits with their investment style. It helps them make money is really the core of what you do. Okay, but then there are all of these other services that citigroup offers and help clients run their money from financing stocks. Teo, all of the things that go around the core of running that business, okay, banking and credit relationships, things like that, things like that. Okay? And so core of that business is sort of managing that entire relationship to make sure they get the resource is that they need in orderto successfully run the business and a transition to non-profit work. What? What occasioned that, frankly, hurricane sandy, i had left wall street. I have two little kids already at home. And i decided that i wanted teo figure out what i wanted to do next. I had no idea what that was. Actually, frankly thought it would be in the finance world. Yeah, and hurricane sandy hit new york. And i was sitting in my living room working on a business plan for a finance business okay, and i just got really passionate about the idea that there were children who had gone to bed safe and sound the night before that woke up with no signs of food or shelter or warmth, their security. And so i went to work from my living room to create programs that generated millions of more meals, hundreds of thousands of blankets and warm winter coats for families all over the tri state area and my husband on dh, the executive director of robin hood both basically sat me down and said, please don’t go back to finance the passion that you feel around helping people is so significant. Do something else. Stay in the non-profit so you gave away your entrepreneurial dream, the plan you’re working on, you’re going to start your own business. I did put that aside, although running a non-profit is inherently credibly entrepreneur. Okay, if it’s done right, i think that’s done right. All right, all right, tell us a little about the jefferson awards and the and the foundation. Sure. So we we basically power public service. We’ve been around since nineteen seventy two started by jackie kennedy. Senator robert taft. Junior and my father, sam beard and the original idea was create a nobel prize for public service in america. Celebrate the very best of the country. You celebration to not only say thank you to people do amazing things, but also as a force multiplier to inspire others to do something good. We then translated into programs that accelerate and amplify service for people of every age. So, starting about ten years ago, we became one of the largest creators of public service in the country through training mechanisms and programs that engage individuals again of all ages to do service ranging from the donation of a single book from a child to a child all the way up. Tio young people in adult toe like who are impacting millions of lives and it’s ah, jefferson awards so what’s the awards side of this. So when the awards is the celebration peace. So we are effectively the gold seal of service in america. We give out a we give out jefferson awards the national level, you would know basically every name. Okay. Who’s, one of jefferson word over the last forty three years. And then we have a media. Partner program, where we partner with ah, local affiliates, newspapers, etcetera but primary news outlets in communities all over the country. But today, reaching to seventy eight million households on dh, they are empowered to take the jefferson award and celebrate local grassroots unsung heroes. All right, a nobel prize for ah, for outstanding program work and and saving lives for impact impact. How about the foundation itself? Just number employees, just a quaint little bit number of employees annual budget. So it’s about twenty seven, employees, we have a, uh, about a ten and a half million dollar annual budget, of which much of that is in-kind it’s about a three and a half million dollar operating revenue budget. Okay, and we’re going to go out for a break in roughly a minute or so. So just, uh, give us a little overviewing of what? What some of the lessons are that you brought from equity sales on dh wall street. Teo, your charitable work. And i think the biggest thing is just that any organization, whether it’s for-profit or non-profit, needs to be world class in order to be successful and that starts with everything from how you manage and set your employees up for success to your back end systems that govern how you pay your rent, you know, pay your expenses and collect your revenues to don’t hurt management. Teo everything that you do needs to look and feel like you set for-profit world, but it’s really for impact. So i’m guessing you believe non-profit is your tax status? Not your mindset? Correct? Yeah, cool. Okay, of course. Hillary stays with us. We go after this break. I hope you do too. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way dahna welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Hillary schaefer let’s ah, let’s, dive into some of these lessons that you’ve brought with you this world class let’s start in the back end investment in infrastructure like c r, m databases, data management so that’s a that’s a terrific place to start because really every non-profit is powered by who they reach and how they reached them and how they communicate with, um and management of relationships, whether that’s a whether that’s, a donor, whether that’s, somebody, who’s won an award from our perspective, whether that somebody who has just invested in you are in your programs and how you understand that relationship, how you manage that relationship is all driven by the back end. Traditionally, people would use spreadsheets or just use, you know, sort of word and lists in their own brains, and fundamentally, it doesn’t get you as far as you need to get, and technology today is so sophisticated and there’s so many great great data pay systems that can integrate seamlessly with your website and with donor management tools and with, um, all mechanisms that you need to communicate effectively and really segment that communication into something that makes sense for that individual. It’s. Almost a shame not to you not to use it. Yeah, segmentation, and we’ll get to the benefit of that. I’ve had other guests. My voice just cracked like i’m a fourteen year old. I’ve had have a congratulations e. Everything else operates at, uh, the requisite age at fifty three. But my voice occasionally. Yeah, so we’ll get to the value of segmentation because people want to talk to personally, not not and mass and like everybody else, but so but this can be hard to invest in me, we’re talking about this is not serving program directly. This is not helping people directly. How do we overcome that mindset that we can get by with, you know, the lackadaisical, the the database that we’ve got her the internal processes we figured out our work arounds, you know we’re okay. It’s it’s finding you say that, right? Because they actually when you invest in a really good database management system and and client relationship manager, which is what c r m stands for, um, what you get out of it, that multiplier effect that you can get from having true, powerful relationships and understanding of all of your constituents, all consolidated is worth every dollar you know, and frankly there’s so many great systems which are out there, and they’re not that expensive. The most expensive part is the time of your staff, an external consultants, which you often need teo, take what is all of the stuff that you’ve cobbled together and to make it work for your organization. So an organization as an example we had brought in sales force. We use sales force. Um, we frankly had the wrong system installed with sales force. It took us a long time to figure out how to get the right system installed in all of those things. But it’s also taking us the better part of eighteen months to clean our data. Teo optimize our data to segment it appropriately so that we can communicate effectively with everybody in the way they want to be communicated with and a fair amount of staff time. And it’s that investment of taking somebody away from something that looks like perhaps it’s more important to their day to day life and put them into what’s really tedious work in order to be a better organization. But for us, if i think about it, if we have a database that reaches sixty thousand people, our ability to grow from an organization that reaches sixty this sixty thousand two, two, six hundred thousand to six million all contingent on us having optimized rc era this is key. So if you want to scale, you have to have the infrastructure to support that every organization wants to be at the next level i get so many questions about, you know, how do i get to next level? Can you refer me to somebody help us get to the next level? But i think often they don’t they’re not set up to get to the next level. They don’t they don’t have the support that they need, even if they were able to teo, multiply by ten there, you know the size of their their outreach. Without data, you have no chance. I’ll give you a great example in the nonprofit world statistic terrifies me, but something like sixty percent of donors don’t repeat on average across the non-profit space every year. Yeah, don’t come back, right? Well, don’t patrician right that’s because we’re not loving the people who are there. Everybody is focused on the next level. No, you’re focused on the next person you forget about the person who’s already said to you with their dollars. I care about what you d’oh at the heart of that is your database management system. I had a guest, peter shankman, um social media expert and marketing guy and his book is called zombie loyalists and basically had a last december. I think i had eternal you’re all your clients and customers into zombie loyalists that love you so much that they’re zombies for your work, and they’ll do your marketing, your pr, your communications for you, but ah, some of what he says boils down to the way to get the client you want is to be awesome to the client. You have that’s exactly right? I mean, i think about it from a from a fund-raising perspective. What the great fundraisers tell you is you should have four contacts with a donor for every time you ask them for something. No in orderto have those four contacts but matter to them, you need to know what they care about that needs to be in your database. You need to understand them that meets not only being your head. It needs to be institutionalized in your database. Ah, and then you need to have systems which set up, which push you to reach out to that person to make sure that you’re not forgetting to touch them four times before you go back to them and say, here’s, your invoice your sales force is a really cool example that you mentioned because for small shops it’s ideal, they’re the first ten licenses from sales force are free to non-profits and then they have a very deeply reduced ah fee for going beyond ten licenses. But i think for a lot of listeners ten licenses is enough for more than enough. So, you know, on i’ve had guests on from the non-profit technology conference and t c talking about the benefits of salesforce, you know, i think that’s right and sales force khun b a terrific tool it’s also it could be not that expensive or if you have the budget, the amount of tools that they have that you khun scale in two really optimizing take you to the next level are huge, so we don’t have we personally don’t have the budget we would love to have to spend with sales force, but we have a big, long wish list of things we would like to spend on specifically with sales force, with the tools that they have something bothering me to my head. Now, i didn’t mean to say lackadaisical databases, i meant to say lackluster, lackluster debate. Lackadaisical database doesn’t make any sense, it’s lazy, lazy self, you know, so that people could be lackadaisical. But the databases lackluster let’s talk a little about the segmentation of the benefit of communicating with people and showing that you know what their interests are when their birthdays are what they, how they like to be communicated with let’s, explore this know people are people, and everybody wants to feel touched individually. Nobody wants to feel like they’re part of a marketing campaign or that they’re part of a sort of a blast. People want to be touched individually. It’s why things like instagram work because they feel touched by a photograph ah, it’s the same thing with with donor or constituent segmentation everybody wants to feel like especially in the nonprofit world where you’re talking about emotion, you are effectively touching people where where they want to improve the world, but you’ve gotta understand which part of it inspires them. Yes, ah, and and also people like being cared for around the things that matter in their daily lives that have nothing to do with you. Ah, their children, their children’s ages what they d’oh? Ah, what their hobbies. Are where they like to travel all of those things. It just matters it’s all about having one on one of relationships. And the better your relationship is, the more likely you are to be able to maximize. And everything you’ve mentioned is data worth preserving its all data. You have to have people love it when you send them a note that says, happy birthday, no, super simple. It is very simple now. So what kinds of reminders do you get? Based on what kinds of things aside from birthday? What? Yeah. What others? Ah, it tends to relate to things that people have told you. Okay? And so for us, it would relate specifically to our program. So we have five different programs that have very, very different calendars. So that could relate. Teo, i i just need to get us a of the date because i know you desperately want to come to our national ceremony in new york city in march. Ah, but it could also be i know you really want to be. Ah, judge at our students in action conference in minneapolis. Ana and so getting that date to you in plenty of advance. Notice it really gets down to that level. All right? So the the value of segmentation and investment in infrastructure what about investment in consultants? You mentioned consulting? Nobody knows everything they need to know, but this could be tough to bring, bring other people in and have a fresh set of eyes evaluating you. It’s interesting on the consulting sight because i i personally have two two minds about consultants. Often i feel like you get charged too much for a percentage of somebody’s brain no on dh that’s the greatest risk with consulting. Ah, but also often they’re just expertise. You don’t want to bring in house. You can’t afford to bring in house, but you need somebody who has fresh eyes who knows something really specific that you don’t know ah, and with without which you can’t can’t go to the next level, you can’t execute effectively. So sales forces a terrific example. Um, there are so many tools inside sales force that enable you to do things like optimize your data and get rid of redundancy and all of those things, um and to, uh, to make it spoke for your organization for think the ways. In which you want to connect with people, i couldn’t do that myself, and i don’t have anybody in house who could do that for me. Could you just send your data data manager, database administrator to a sales force conference or course, yes, we do that too, okay, but it’s not enough, and for the cost of bringing you know you’ve got you’ve got away out the cost. So the question is, can you find somebody who is affordable to you in your organization that helps bring in those that kind of expertise in? I’m their things like building out an effective communication strategy where if you don’t have a big, robust communications team who can think about everything from database management, teo email to social media to all the things that go into digital infrastructure ah, and communications calendars and all of those things. At some point, it becomes really smart to bring in somebody from the outside to say, i’m building you a structure i’m helping you think about inside your organization, for you what a structure would look like, that you can afford let’s turn to our people i think my voice is my voice was crack again, it’s. A big bag, maybe. Yeah, you know. Uh, so you’re important asset, probably your most valuable asset. Most important, most expensive it’s expensive. I would guess inside most non-profits that that people are seventy eight percent of cost big, big, big percentage, um, and making impact in the world all relates to the people who you were in power to make that impact on your behalf as as either a full time employee or an independent contractor and losing employees is as expensive as losing the donors we were talking about, if not more so, you know woobox the amount of time you then need to spend teo find the person, bring them in house, and on average, it takes six to eighteen months to really optimize an employee. That’s a long time to invest in somebody new if you have somebody who’s good who’s sitting there right in front of you. The most important thing with people always is that they feel like they’re being set up to succeed. And they’re being given the tools that they need. Ah, to succeed. All right, how do we do this? Ah, well, that everything from the really basic and can feel very cumbersome to a management manager piece. But ah, gold setting and reviews, letting people know where they stand, being really straightforward with them about what they’re doing that’s terrific, and where they need to develop development goals is a big, big, big piece, and i don’t mean development is in fund-raising i mean, personal development, professional development around how can you be a much more effective employees? For the most part? Certainly in my experience, whether it’s on wall street or in the nonprofit world, when you sit in a review with somebody, they barely hear the good stuff ninety nine percent of what you tell them could be good. Everybody waits for the butt, the but needs to be real, meaning it needs to be i understand you here’s, where i see helping to take you as a human being and as a professional to the next level, and being able to deliver that in a way which is non threatening but having systems and structures around delivering reviews around goal, setting around, holding people accountable to those goals and around understanding them and wanting to be on their side are all the the most important things you can do, and it doesn’t matter what. Kind of an organization you’re out to do that my guest last week, we’re from the university of pittsburgh, and they were talking about incentive pay something that pitt has set up. They’ve defined what an exemplary fundraiser is. It’s basically achieving two hundred percent of your goal. But that’s a big organization, university of pittsburgh, might there be other ways of implementing incentive pay around? Aside from strictly money, money comp, you know, incentives are interesting in non-profits because, um, a, for the most part, non-profits don’t use sort of base bonus type structures, but there are tons of other ways that you can make somebody feel really good about what they do and whether that’s simply celebrating their accomplishments to the other employees into your board. People really thrive on that, but it can also be other things, like giving them an extra days vacation. Um, you know, sending them home on purpose when their kid’s sick and you tell them that family comes first, you know, all those things that’s really more around culture, but there are there are smart things you can do where you say, you know what? I don’t have the dollar to give. You. But i do have a day to give you or two or whatever it is. Whatever it is, that you’ve earned benefits structures are very important. Um, covering people and their families, and how you do that and how you communicate it. Incredibly important and totally under sort of undervalued in the mindset in the nonprofit world about what that means to an individual. And you say, i care about you and your health, and i care about your family in there. We have just about a minute left or so we have a couple more than more than a couple minutes. How much time do we have left? Sam? Okay, dahna then let’s. Ah, my mistake. Let’s. Keep talking about some some policies around employment. Maybe around training. You’ve got a new employee. You’ve spent the requisite amount of time recruiting you believe you’ve got the best person, the orientation, the training process, the onboarding process oven employees that one of the single most important things that you d’oh. So with us, justus a simple example. First, everybody gets a very long, very detailed employee manual that they have to read where they really understand what the operating premises are of the organ you’re holding your hands, like four inches apart for inches. It’s not four inches thick. Okay, okay. They’re recording, so that would be way too much street. All right, but i use my hands a lot. I think i’m going to italy and one hundred in italian, so i didn’t think you were using them enough. That must be the eight and half months. Pregnant part. Yes, i understand. Ok, the but having that set of expectations in somebody’s mind where they read it? They have to affirm it. They have to tell you that they’ve read it. That tells them everything from how many vacation days they do have, how they can accrue more vacation, what the benefits are to them, how they can get in trouble, how they can stay out of trouble. What a whistle blower policy might look like. All of those things very, very important, but then bringing people into the culture of the organization into your programs where they really feel armed. Tio ah, to be an effective employees. Ah, it’s. So fundamental. So we we set up a schedule time with all of our program managers. We have our end of its staff. When they come in they go. They shadow individuals who do either their job or even other jobs inside the organization. Because you’ve got to understand the entire organization. I think in order to be effective in your silo. Um ah, and then we do profession. We were very open to paying from people doing professional development and encourage it. Ah, and then we do regular staff retreats where everybody comes together and we work on pieces that feel like they might be holes in the skill set to the entire organization again. Investment where its infrastructure or people? You just you can’t shortchange these things and expect to scale on grow the organization. I mean, for the amount it costs me, tio run a staff retreat every year, eyes about one percent of what it costs me to pay my staff. Yeah, that is a very worthwhile investment to make that staff be a leverage oppcoll army. We’re gonna leave it there. Hillary shafer she’s uh, executive director of jefferson awards foundation there at jefferson awards dot or ge and again on twitter. She’s at beard, hillary. Thank you so much, hillary. Thank you. Real pleasure and gun muzzle tough. Congratulations on your pregnancy. Thank you very much. Jean takagi and program your board coming up first. Pursuant acquisition campaigns. They had a free webinar to help you acquire new donors. That was back on august thirty first. But it’s not too late. This is not a date news. No, no one current news. You can watch the archive. Go to tony dot m a slash pursuant capital p please. And the info was there to watch. The archive video tony dahna em a slash pursuant for the archive on acquisition campaigns. Rechner, cps. They do go way beyond the numbers. They have lots of policy statements for you. Ah, more than from last week. Ethical conduct for board members, disaster recovery, investment policy, independent contractor versus employee checklist i know non-profit struggle with that. We’ve covered it and there’s a lot more resources at wagner cpas dot com quick resource is then guides that’s where you get all this good info stop wasting your time using business accounting software for your books you aren’t a business you’re non-profit appaloosa counting is designed for non-profits built from the ground up to make your non-profit financial management simple and affordable. Please check this out. Our new sponsor, apple, owes its fund accounting, advanced reporting, donation tracking and there’s mohr included in annapolis. Accounting it’s all in one, easy to use. Go to non-profit wizard dot com now for tony’s take two. I still got this five minute marketing for planned e-giving i condensed down to the to the, uh most essential information twenty five minutes. Hard to believe that i could talk for twenty five minutes and it not all be critical. I had difficulty with that, but the whole concept of distilling it down. But i did. And i got it down to about three minutes. Roughly and that’s the best of the five minute marketing tips that i’ve got for you for planned giving. I want you to get started with your plan giving marketing. Watch the tips. Check out the video. Three minutes worth it’s at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two. And here is jean takagi with program you’re bored jean takagi he’s, a principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. Gene has been gene has been a regular contributor to show it’s got to be going on three years. Gina i if it’s not three it’s very close. He had it’s, the non popular of the non popular beautiful he had it’s the popular non-profit law blawg dot com non-profit law blogged dot com it’s very popular. And on twitter he’s at jack g t k happy new year jean takagi. Welcome back. Happy new year. Tony it’s. Great to be on. Thank you. I love having you. How long have you been? A contributor every month, i think it’s been a little over three years. A zit? Is it over three? Love it. It could be i think we met three years ago at a bar in san francisco, if i remember, right? Oh, for sure. It’s not like we pick. I picked you up there where i knew you before. I’m not that easy with contributors. I mean, yes, we we knew each other. And then we certainly did meet that’s, right? With along with emily chan? Yes. That’s. Right. Um, let’s see, our board has our board has some responsibilities and around program you’re concerned that they’re not they’re not fulfilling those responsibilities. Yeah, i just feel like there’s there’s, maybe some lack of attention paid on the boards roll on program oversight? I think so often went especially when you talk with lawyers or accountants were talking about financial oversight and we’re saying we’ll make sure you’re solvent. Make sure you have enough money to pay off your debts. They become do we don’t really talk very much about programs, but certainly the management folks and the thunder’s air talking about programs and whether they’re effective and efficient that furthering the mission. So, you know, i thought we should explore a little bit about what the board duties are in in that event as well. Can you just remind us first, we’ve talked about this a while ago. There are three duties that board members have. I was faith, hope and chastity, or on the greatest of those is but yeah, the three duties are the duty of care and that’s act with reasonable care in providing direction and oversight over the organization, the duty of loyalty, and a lot of that has to do with avoiding conflicts of interests that are not in the best interest of the organizations, but are more for the best interest of an insider and the duty of obedience which lawyers air very interested in, and that’s a bang with both the outside laws of you know, that apply to the organization and the internal laws like the by-laws and other policies that the documents may have those air the three to be to be concerned with. Okay and and around program program is essential. Man. That’s what charity’s exist for his programs? Oh, my voice just cracked like i’m a fourteen year old exist that’s. Exciting stuff. Now that it is, it is that’s. Right? Well, you make it interesting. That’s. Why? I love having you back. You make the what could very well be a dry topic. I think you make it interesting. And listeners do too. Yeah. That’s. What? Charity’s air here is for a program. Yeah, exactly. I mean, who cares? The indie at the end of the day, if we’ve got great financials, it’s none of our programs are effective, and we don’t do a service to the community. Precisely. So what? What do we need to be doing? What to boards need to be doing around around program. Well, i think in meeting those three duties, the critical aspect for boards to make sure they’re reasonably informed. Ah, and just get a program report every month or every two months. You know, a ten minute program report from the executive director or program director is fine and good. But does that mean the board really understands the programs and whether the advance the mission on do they understand how the program’s advance emission? And did they ever ask you more difficult questions about are the programs effective? At advancing the mission. Or do we have alternatives? Or should we think of alternatives that might be able to advance that mission mohr effectively or more efficiently, given the limited resources that we all have? First up in this is and we have talked about this, your mission needs to be very clear. Yeah, and one of the things you have to do is make sure you go back. And this is the lawyer speaking, make sure you go back to your articles of incorporation and by-laws and make sure that the mission statement that years, thinking that you’re furthering is consistent with what the law says your mission is, and that’s that’s how it’s displayed on the governing documents and figuring out whether we are effective at meeting our mission. Now we’ve gotto identify cem numbers, right? I mean, it’s, not just gonna be a ten minute report from the program director, we’ve got to be looking at some numbers to figure out whether our we’re having the outcomes that we want, right and it’s such a such a difficult question and that’s, why it’s it’s all about keeping informed? Because you know the whole area of program. Evaluation and that cantor and and a lot of institutions like the stanford center on philanthropy in civil society and mckinsey and, you know, the non-profit cordially foundations under the all have been raiding all sorts of things on program evaluation and how we need more metrics and, you know, but all of that is great, but this is really hard stuff for a lot of non-profits to do so, yes, trying to figure out what what measurements are are important for us to figure out. Are we advancing our mission effectively? And then are we advancing it efficiently is really hard stuff, i think tip typically non-profits will, you know, measure how much money we’ve raised, how many visitors we’ve had or people with served, how many members we have? What is our overhead ratio on? We’ve had discussions on that topic as well, and, you know, those are interesting figures in all important, and i don’t want to downplay that, but what about, you know, then, you know, the number of clients served, for example, does that really tell us what impact that’s done? No before the clients and you know, the program staff may know that, but how does the board know that if we have? If we served two thousand clients last month, did we did we serve them by giving them one meal? Did that change their lives? Did we do more than that? Did we provide services? What? What and impact are we trying to aim for? And what results are we getting those air really difficult things to try to figure out. But i think the board needs to push the organization in that direction. Of trying to figure out are the programs that write programs? Are we effectively implementing it? And if you want to, you know, evaluate your executive and evaluate your programs. You’ve gotta have a good understanding of that. I feel your passion around this, jean. I really do. It comes it’s it’s palpable. Now, in managing these programs, it’s not the board’s roll. Teo to be day to day there’s clearly there’s a delegation that has to be happening. Yeah, absolutely. And and the board certainly has the ability to and should be delegating if they have staff in an executive director. Particularly, um, delegating those duties on those people. And especially, you know, holding the executive accountable. And tasking executive and making sure the executive has resources to be able to do this, to try to figure out what measurements should we take? Teo, evaluate our programs. What what’s important? What do we have the capacity to do now? And what? What do we aspire to do? What are outside stakeholders wanting? What are the foundations saying we must have? And what are the donor’s expecting from us and how to our competitors provide that type of information back? I think we just need to push our executives. We’re lucky enough to have them to figure some of those things out. And none of this has done overnight. Of course, tony. But you know, you you’ve gotto work at this, and sometimes you’re going to move forward, and sometimes you gotta move backwards. But you’ve got to keep pushing, pushing ahead. You just asked five or six really difficult but critical questions. Um, it’s a good thing. This is a podcast cause now people can listen. Go, go back to the past one minute and listen to those five or six questions. Jean just just named, you know, difficulty, but but but critical. And and yet the board’s oversight responsibility remains, and that can’t be delegated. That’s, right? So you know, the board, khun delegate management, but the board can’t delegate its ultimate oversight of the organization and it’s, you know, it’s responsibility to plan the direction of the organization. So status quo, if you know if that’s all you’re satisfied with and you don’t aim to do anything else with that, you know, that may not that may indicate that you don’t have the best board in place, and i was a little shocked. Teo learned, i think two days ago guidestar held a web cast, and there was a survey done of executive directors, and seventy five percent said they were unhappy with their boards and there’s a big disconnect there seventy five percent approved. Okay, what else? What else, uh, is part of the boards oversight of program? Gene? Well, you know, one thing i kind of want to emphasize as well is that i don’t want to put all of this on the board of directors, and i realized that the vast majority of board members are volunteers and have busy lives otherwise and are doing an amazing job. Trying to contribute to their organizations, the disconnect with the exec director is usually because of communications and a lack of understanding of their respective roles. So i just want to put a little bit of a burden on the executive director as well, to make sure that they are emphasizing board development and helping the board understand its responsibilities and sometimes bringing in experts, even though they may cost a little at the outset. Khun b really valuable to an organisation to try to figure out what these roles are, and again put in a little investment up front, and you can get payoff down the road even if you have some failures along the way. But it’s just that continuing to push forward to trying to understand what you’re doing who’s responsible for what? On figuring that stuff out the metrics themselves again. Our khun b, you know, exceedingly difficult if if i asked you give us metrics on changing laws when we were fighting for civil rights, well, that might take years or decades to get any measurable results per se that might make a thunder happy. And you know what would have happened in the early sixties you know, civil rights organizations just had their program shut down because boards didn’t get the right metrics. That would have been ridiculous, right? So we have to understand the limitation of these measurements as well, but continue to try to figure out what important steps or benchmarks we’re shooting for and what’s important to do, even if we don’t get the metrics. Ah, and make sure our funders and donors and stakeholders understand those limitations. Well, just a minute or so before before breaking what? What kind of expert would help us with this? What would we search for? Well, there there are some consultants out there who specialize in program evaluation, and there there are definitely resource is out there. I have named a few organizations already, but let me give you a few more the foundation centre and they’re grantspace website has got some excellent resource is on program evaluation, the national council of non-profits also has some excellent resources. They’re they’re definitely resource is out there. And if you look for non-profit consultants who got program evaluation exper thirties, i think that can be a starting place. This is also a ripe area for collaboration. Amongst organizations that are serving similar populations, or half similar missions, to try to meet together and talked about how they’re measuring, you know, their program, results and what would work for maybe, you know, across the sub sector that that they’re serving, all of those things are really important. I think again, executive leadership is really important to get the board in motion, but the board also has to hold the executive responsible for making sure that happens as well. Let’s, take a break. Gene and i, of course, will keep talking about the board’s responsibility around program and the executive director’s, too. Lynette singleton and at lays, right. Thank you for thank you very much. For those very, very kind thoughts on twitter. Hang in there. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist market of eco enterprises charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, i’m kate piela, executive director of dance, new amsterdam. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. More live listener love junction china ni hao, the netherlands gary indiana the home of christmas story, right? I’m pretty sure a christmas story that movie took place in gary, indiana live listen, i’d love to gary, indiana, and we’ve got a couple checking in from japan, hiroshima and kobe konnichi wa, farmington, michigan live listener love out to you. We have a question from twitter jean very loyal listener lynette singleton asks, do we know why there’s this lack of love between executive directors with and their boards, any ideas what’s contributing to that? I think i’m sorry, tony, that i think there are a number of factors that make be contributing to that, but i think the first is lack of understanding of the rules at each place and then it’s it’s a matter of communication between the two parties there are greater vacations that that board’s place on executives and reliance on the executives tio tio make do with limited resources to produce amazing results, and that can sometimes be a very heavy burden on the executive without a lot of support from the board and exactly what the board’s role is in supporting the executive director’s. Also, i think they’re many areas where there’s a lack of agreement or understanding between those roles and, you know, fund-raising is actually one of the areas of ax. Actually, some controversy, i think, you know, is the board involved. Is the board’s role no to raise funds for the organisation. From a legal perspective, i might answer no to some extent, from a more operational perspective, i would say, of course it is, so they’re they’re different considerations, and that was a charity navigator study, right? I’m not sure. I thought you said i’d start with, i’m sorry, the organization that did the webinar. Okay, okay, god start. Pardon me. Ok wave talking, talking about program meeting the mission, but there’s also legal requirements around program as well. Sure, and then the board should make sure that the executive is ensuring that the program is in compliance with whatever applicable laws might be there, whether it have to do with the facility of the organization or the employees and volunteers working for it, their basic risk management steps that they may want to take a swell, including ensuring that there’s proper insurance that, for whatever activities are are involved. Obviously, if you’re doing a summer day camp involving rope climbing and like that that’s going to be a little bit more significant in terms of risk management than if you’re just doing administrative work, but lots of legal compliance things, licensing, permitting and in all of those think, well, can board members be personally liable if laws are being broken and that’s why we have directors and officers insurance, isn’t it? Yeah, part partly why we have that it’s usually, you know, if there’s some sort of negligence involved when the board members acting not as a boardmember but is a volunteer for a program, then you’re probably looking at commercial general liability insurance to protect against, you know, somebody slip and fall and blaming the volunteer who was right supposed to set it up on the board members, directors and officers. Insurance will really protect against decisions that the board made that ultimately, you know, in hindsight, we’re negligent or grossly negligent, and, you know, if they decided to hold a program in involved involving bungee jumping with six year olds and without adequate supervision that, you know, that would be the type of negligence that could get boardmember personally liable for something like that. But volunteermatch boardmember czar really, really, really rarely held personally liable absent some sort of malfeasance or self dealing really benefit themselves. Okay, i’ve seen some six year olds on the subway that i wouldn’t mind having participate in that that bungee jumping off a cliff i could i could give them a little shove to get them started, but not not kids. I know nobody related to me only only what’s people i’ve seen in some pipe it that it go well, now they’re real. I’ve seen him in the subway, i just don’t know who they are. I can’t name them, but i could point them out easily. Probably on my way home. I’ll encounter a few. Um, what else should we be thinking about? You know, your get before i asked before we do that, you’re an anarchist. Also, you’re making us. I got two troublemakers on the show today. You are making us ask questions that are very difficult, but but critical? Yeah. You know, i think of lawyers and consultants more broadly, that’s what what we do, we can implement the changes that we talked about, what we want to raise the questions because we want boards and executives to really be thinking about these things and discussing them. And that’ll help break down the barriers and the misunderstandings and hopefully make more executive directors feel that their boards air great, make more executive, make more boards feel that their executive directors are doing a great job as well. As i said, i feel your passion around this. We have just about two minutes. What? You have another thought around this? Yeah. You know, just tio, make sure that again and i’ve talked a little bit about this is that there are limitations to what metrics can provide to an organization and some things just take a really long time to figure out research i mentioned lobbying on civil rights issues is one example, but research as well, you know, for going to engage in research of a new program and how it’s going to work or developing a new medical device or drug that’s going to be beneficial to developing nations and that the people there who might not have the resources to be able to afford these things, we’ve got to be a little bit experimental. And i know you know, there’s been preaching to the choir about embracing failure and sharing it so we can learn in advance, but that really is something that all echo as well, that, you know, we’re going to get metrics and sometimes the metrics they’re going to show we failed, but if we never fail, that means we’ve never really pushed the envelope of making a more substantial change, and we’re just sort of, you know, relying on making little incremental changes, and we have to think about our organizations and say, are we detective organization that just wants to stay status quo? Do we want to make little tiny? Incremental changes year by year or do we actually want to look at solving or advancing our mission in a really big way and actually take some risk and find some programs out there that might be more risky and that might fail and help educate our funders and our donors and our supporters that this is what we’re doing and not everything is going to work, but this is the way to advance, you know, our cause lawyer with a heart, jean jean takagi, really so grateful that you’re contributing to the show? Jean, thank you so much. Thank you, johnny. And thanks for basing this serious subject today. That’s all right, uh, we have a little fun with it. You’re an anarchist is no question cubine you’ll find jean at non-profit law blogged dot com that’s the block that he edits and he’s at g tack on twitter. Thank you again, jean, thanks so much. Next week it’ll be a good one. You have my word. I don’t know anything about fermentation. 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Nonprofit Radio for June 30, 2017: Persuading The Wealthy To Donate & Your Board’s Role In Executive Hiring

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Ashley Whillans: Persuading The Wealthy To Donate

Ashley Whillans’ research reveals the language that stimulates giving from your wealthy potential donors. She’s assistant professor at Harvard Business School.

 

 

 

Gene Takagi: Your Board’s Role In Executive Hiring

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group (NEO), walks us through this important board responsibility: hiring the executive officer. (Originally aired 7/11/14)

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the either ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of pem fi gis if you bullied me with the idea that you missed today’s show persuading the wealthy to donate ashley whillans research reveals the language that stimulates giving from your wealthy potential donors and your boards role in executive hiring. Jing takagi are legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group walks us through this important board responsibility hyre ing the executive officer that originally aired on july eleven twenty fourteen on tony’s take two the charleston principles we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com my pleasure. Now to welcome ashley whillans to the show, she just turned her phd from the university of british columbia. She conducts research with non-profits companies and government. She was a twenty fifteen rising star of behavioral science. In twenty sixteen, she helped start the behavioral insights group. In the british columbia provincial government next month, ashley begins her faculty career as an assistant professor at the harvard business school in negotiations organizations and markets she’s at ashley whillans and i’m very glad to welcome her to non-profit radio welcome, ashley. Thank you so much for having me this morning. Pleasure. Now, there’s. A lot going on in your life. You just got your ph d just last month, right? You just graduated? Yeah. That’s. Right. Uh, something like two weeks ago. I just got my my doctorate. Congratulations, that’s. Outstanding. Because because when we started, when we started emailing your your email signature said phd candidate and now it says ashley whillans phd. Yeah. That’s right. That was the most exciting email change i made recently. Yes. Right. You got to go into preferences signatures and change. Delete the word candidate that’s. Outstanding. Yeah, great. Yeah. Now i see you are not using period’s. Most people do. Ph, period d period. You’re opting against the periods. Is there some kind of ah, that a brevity fetish you have or something? What? Why’s that no periods. Yes. Efficiency, laziness, something like that. Okay, even those two keystrokes, those two period keystrokes. It’s. Too much with the right hand. Too much. Okay. Okay, on dh now, big, big changes coming up you. So you’re you’re in british columbia that you went to university of british columbia. But now you gotta move to cambridge, right? You’re moving tomorrow? Yeah. Moving tomorrow. Uh, morning. Cambridge, massachusetts that’s. Incredible. Um, good luck in the move. Are you are you a canadian originally? Your canadian citizen? I am a canadian. Okay. All right. Now, aren’t you at all concerned about our muslim ban? I know ashley willens. So that’s a suspicious sounding name to me. Is that a muslim? Ashley whillans is that a muslim name? Sounds sounds muslim. No, i i don’t have to worry about it, but i know it is an issue for some of my my friends. So this’s america shortly? Okay, you’re you’re friends, right? It’s affects a lot of people’s friends and that you know where the where the democracy, where everyone is under suspicion. So i did see your head shot and i did not see ah, hey, job on your head shot. So may i hope you’ll get through scrutiny. I don’t know what we’re looking at canadian citizens, how scrupulous were being. I hope you have no trouble coming in. Let’s, get to the substance of sort of self concept and and giving, let me ask, let me start. A lot of people think the wealthy are selfish. Is that so? So i would definitely hesitate against that general idea related to the research that i did. I think it’s, so i think that that wealthy individuals have a lot of personal control and so it’s not that wealthier individuals, on average or selfish, but rather that they and are used to and enjoy having autonomy or personal control over decisions in their daily life. Yeah, that autonomy then and an agency we’re going, we’re going to get to. There was a really interesting study in twenty fifteen of preschoolers, which is related to the work that you did and we’re going to talk about, can you? Can you summarize that for us? That twenty fifteen preschoolers research? Um so i think broadly, this wasn’t my research was that the preschool fighting is that kids from wealthier families actually give less tokens during an economic game in the lab than been children from less wealthy background, so they decide to keep more tokens for themselves, even when the tokens they’re going to go to other children who who couldn’t be there to participate in the study because they were at sick in half because they’re sick in the hospital, right? This study is just one example of many that are sort of proliferating in the social sciences, suggesting that, um, people from wealthier backgrounds tends to give less when one provided with the opportunity, right? And your research finds the way teo overcome what? What? Maybe? Well, it’s, your research points out that it’s really not something innate, but it’s the messaging coming from the charities that is a variable factor that can influence the giving of the wealthy and the less affluent, too. Yes, that’s right. So, really, what our research fight is that the and this is this isn’t necessarily surprising so fund-raising professional, they’re like, of course, you should table your message to your audience, but i think what’s, really. So what we find is that he’s more agenda messages, messages that focus on personal achievement and control are more effective it encouraging giving among those with the greatest capacity or messages that focus on what we can all do together to help the cause are more effective for those with the less capacity give but across our studies of more than thousand working adults from both chicago in vancouver, we don’t find any inherent differences in our studies between those with most the most money in our samples in those with please okay, samples so we don’t see a main effect where people who are wealthy orc are giving much less, and people have less money or giving maurine the content of the earth studies. But rather we find that depending on how the message is frame’s related to charitable giving, the wealthy give more or the left latto give more. Okay, now that sound very it sounds like you’ve said that those few paragraphs a bunch of times in the past couple months or so nastad sounded very, very polished and finished. Have you repeated those words a few times? No, not too much, not too much, but i have thought about this research a lot over the last three years. Yeah, okay. All right, well, it’s there’s a lot there. We’re gonna unpack it, but, um, yeah, i like the bottom line is that it’s not only about the wealthy and it the tailoring a lot of times fundraisers or anybody and non-profit they talk about tailoring a message? They mean used the person’s first name or, you know, address them personally or address them by ah, bye program that they’re interested in or certainly maybe e-giving level where, you know, but we’re we’re talking about cutting it. A different way. Which would be bye affluence. Do i have that on my perverting? Your researcher of kapin basically absolutely right. Okay, okay. We’re gonna go out for our first break. Thank you for telling me. I did not pervert your research. I don’t want to do that. We’re gonna go out for a first for our break. And when we come back, you and i will continue talking about persuading the wealthy and others to donate using the right messaging. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the either ninety five percent. Ashley whillans recent phd. We’re talking about her research on messaging and e-giving ah, the different levels of of affluence. Actually, you did this with riel charities. Is that that’s what i gather, right? Yes. That’s, right. So we conducted the research with an organization that focuses on effective plan to be the life you can save on. We’ve also done this with a large private university in the united states. Okay, i guess you’re not at liberty to say the the name of the university is that? Does that part of the agreement? That’s, right? Yeah. Kapin nondisclosure agreement. Okay, now we know that you’re headed to harvard business school, but, you know, that’s just may just be a coincidence. Oh, by the way, what? It wasn’t there, it wasn’t. It wasn’t there. Okay, but where were you going to be? Teaching? I mean, you know, it’s like getting your syllabus together right for your first. Are you going to teaching in the fall? I’m teaching in the second semester, so i’ll be teaching negotiations. I take the class first and then i teach in the second. Semester they make a making a new professor. Sit through the class, see that you understand how the class goes and you get a feel for what the classroom is like. Oh, man, and you get paid for that. You’re on salary while you’re doing that? Yes, falik okay, well, of course you have other responsibilities as well. You’re not just going to one, you know, just taking one class. And they i’ve been sitting on the quad for the they don’t let me off that easy. Okay? Cool. No, it’s. Very good for you. All right. So a charity without a canadian charity, the charity is in the united states. They’re both the both the college and the charity work in the united states. Ok, ok. Was that hard? Is that hard? Teo recruit charities too. Let you mess with their messaging? Yeah, that’s a great question. It definitely took a little bit of collecting initial evidence on the idea first. And i’m also part of the society for philanthropy initiative out of the university of chicago. So it’s run by john list and other economists who are centered at the university of chicago and there’s a conference every year that brings together fund-raising professionals, professionals, leading academics in economics, sociology and psychology. Two begin to think about and talk about using the insights from our fields and put them into practice. So that was a great source of connections for us when we went and tried to find field partners for our research professor john list in chicago, i think he’s been on this show, i’m pretty sure he has i’m i’m gonna go to tony martignetti dot com and search his name, but i’m pretty sure john list has been on. Yeah, that’s great, yeah, he’s a major he’s, one of the leading academic academics in the field of fund-raising so he really started the academic field of philanthropic studies and fund-raising looking at from a behavioral science perspective, his career really took off after he was on non-profit radio. So this is very auspicious for you. I don’t know if you know that this is a watershed, this watershed for you. I don’t know if you’re aware of that. Great, great. Now i have been. But now you are here. Yes, you know, gen shang. Do you know professor gen shang? I don’t know, you know. You’re not well connected, all right? We’ll have to connect you in the university environment. She’s another professor. Now it, uh i think she’s now at cambridge. The other cambridge? Not the not the knockoff. Cambridge. You’re moving to she’s. The original cambridge, i think. Pretty sure. Okay, so all right, so you recruited your charities and then what’s the next step? Yeah. What was next after that? Oh, you got a what we had a discussion about. You know what? Campaigns were upcoming that we might be able to do. Random i control trials. So that’s, where we’ve flip a coin essentially on dh randomly find everyone who’s going to receive a mail out to receive one of the treatments or the other treatment. Andi, that was actually done all by the university alumni office. So they were able to select one set of messages for the group that we randomly assigned in another set of messages for this other group. And then we were able to put these messages into the field and look at donation rates, both participation rates, so likelihood of donating to the campaign. And also the amount that people donated to the campaign. Okay. On dh it took about i think it was in the field for so we were waiting for the results for three or four months on dh. Then we were able to look at whether and how different messages affected different potential donors differently, and the charities had wealth, information or income information about the people who receive these melons right in our field study with the university office we hey, we did a little bit of guessing and well, so we didn’t have individual level wealth data, but we did have a zip code data. We were able to get the average level of well in the neighborhood that individual’s lives. We also knew how much they donated in previous campaigns, which is a pretty good indicator of wealth of someone who gives six, seven, eight thousand dollars to their university alumni office is probably a lot someone who’s wealthier than then another individual who’s giving five, ten, fifty hundred dollars over the last couple of campaigns. So we only that is an index of well, all right. That’s a good that’s. A good proxy. Ah, especially if it’s over over a period. Ah, good period of years or so that’s true. And you used ninety thousand dollars as the cut off between affluent and less affluent, right? So where we got that number is actually so those were from our more tightly controlled experiments in the field where we i went up to adults at different finds museums in vancouver and chicago. And we asked him to participate in a study who provided them with a windfall of money and prevented the opportunity. Donate either in terms of agency or communion is we’ve been kind of talking about and we measure their individual loss. Okay, so that was different. That was different. Fields, scratch that off. Actually, just emerged from our data. So wave randomly assigned everyone in our sample to see either these more achievement focused or these more community focused messages. And then we ran additional analyses looking at you know what? At what point that these messages focused on achievement really seem to be working on. We found that message is focused on achievement. Really seemed to start working at promoting giving around this ninety thousand dollar mark. So that’s, that point actually emerged from the studies that we were conducting. Okay, okay, so that so that was a different set of field research, the the ninety thousand dollar affluent level that was from the university or the or the or the charity mailing? Okay. Okay, well, by the way, what’s, your what’s, your windfall payment to participate in the research at the at the museum’s. What do you what researchers consider a windfall? Yeah. So when paul is money that you didn’t expect to get way, provided all of our participants with a ten dollar when thawed the beginning of the study. But we there’s a couple of things that we do to help people ten dollars that’s a winner money, ten dollars. A windfall. I don’t really like twenty, five hundred or five thousand or something, man. They’re underfunded, you’re badly underfunded payment. You could go for lunch or something or have a coffee. So what we actually do, though, is way. Tell people that’s their payment for participating in our study, and we put it in a foryou envelope on we tell participants to put that payment of money away. So those couple of small, small thing telling them it’s their payment for their effort in our studies and telling them to put it away and just sign for it how people on our studies feel a sense of ownership over the payment because we know that if so, then we can feel a little bit more confident, but the results will generalize to the real world because people are treating that more like their money and left life, you know, something that’s like a payment that belongs to the researchers as opposed to them. You people are pretty tricky like you. You’re really trying to pull the wool over our eyes if we’re if we’re a subject subject, yeah, it helps. It helps us feel more confident in our results if i didn’t and here’s some of our experiments all money, you know, can you make a decision with it? People are going to make a different decision then, if they feel like i’m now asking them tio part with some of the money that they’ve earned in our study, i see very wily ofyou, behavioral scientists. All right. Are you familiar at all with the research of ah, do you know the name’s, sara kiesler and lee sproule? No. Okay, old social scientists from when i went to college. But i thought you might have come across there. They were behavioral social scientists also. But i won’t dwell on there. There, the forefathers, for four founders, foremothers of your of your research, but it’s not important, okay. Okay, so all right, enough of the detail. Now what? Uh, what emerged from the the different messages flush it out for us. So what we found was that messages that focused on achievement encourage generosity among those with the greatest capacity to give so above that ninety thousand threshold that we’re talking about where’s messages focused on community. But we can all do together to help the cause, encourage generosity among those with the least amount of money in our samples. And this was true, as i said before, both when we measured individual level wealth and when participants knew they were in a study. And these findings also emerge when we conducted this research in the field with the university fund-raising office and people didn’t know that they were in a study. So we also thought that these messages focus on achievement promoted e-giving for individuals who were graduates of an elite business school in the united states um, and then that study it increased the amount that that individuals gave in the study. Now what you refer to as the communion message, by the way that’s interesting tries to work communion, huh? Why’d you choose communion instead? Of community. So this is just really a kind of jargon. Ease social. See there’s the trouble right there. Yeah. Jargon. We have jargon jail on a non-profit radio. It was the first problem, right? There’s the problem right there. Okay. Okay. So community is one way you can think about it. That’s totally fine if it’s with a lot of research and our field showing that people from different cultural backgrounds tend to think about their relationship with others in different ways. So in north american cultural context, we tend to be more gentle. We focus on this self as really standing out. Where is in more collectivist culture, such as in east asia? We focus more on fitting in, and our relationships with others are really important. Recently in the social sciences, people have started to draw parallels between these different cultural mindset and the mindset that are so secret with having more or less money. So i used the word agency and communion tow link this broader literature. But really, you can think about this in terms of agency or community that wealthier individuals tend to be more singularly focused and really wanting to stand out. We’re lost wealthy individuals tend, on average to be more focused to their community, so they tend to want to fit in with those around them. You have the gift of of ah, complete explanation and appropriate qualification, which will serve you well as a professor. A ll the professors i’ve interviewed, including john list have those gift detail and qualification were required. I know if you know that, but you’ve. You’ve acquired it through your three year study. Congratulations. All right. So so the message is that you used for the the communion. The message was let’s. Save a life together. That’s one example. Right? And then the for the individual achievement of the agency message he used you equals life saver. Those are those are a couple of examples of messages. Yeah, yes. Okay. And those would have gone out in direct mail is that is that right? There will be mail pieces. So in our initial studies, we had people in our studies read those appeals in the context of an actual experiments. And in the university fund-raising study, those messages went out in direct mail. So those messages were at the very top of what people saw. And at the very bottom, right before they made or messages like that break before they made their donation decision. Okay, okay. So, really, you know, a zeiss ed? The research applies to the affluent as well as the non affluent or less up. However you want to describe it, you want your messaging to be appropriate, and we’re introducing sort of a new variable. I think that or at least one that i have not scene which is messaging by wealth level here. Yes, that’s. Right. So i research really does show that thinking about or knowing something about the socioeconomic status or background of potential donors, i can provide one clue about the types of messages or appeals that might be more effective for for a different different groups. And again, this really fits with what we know in psychology about how well shapes the way we think about ourselves. So we know again, that’s the kind of reiterate we know that lower income individuals on average and we’re always talking about general, is to think about the world in a way that’s, more relational. How can i fit in with my community? How can i make a difference fight by being part of my group where hyre social status hyre hyre more wealthy individuals tend to think about right standing out from the crowd and how they can show their uniqueness or economy in their lives. So i think, knowing just a little bit about how well shapes the way people think about themselves is an important clue as to how we might want to frame charitable giving or messages of round fund-raising to encourage e-giving among both groups, andi, i also think that it’s important, so i think i mean, again, the idea of tailoring messages isn’t new, but i do think that this a gent iq framing this sort of focus on personal achievement or self, you know, control sort of seems teo conflict with the way that we think about charitable giving as something that together we all help an important cause. And so i think it’s important to another kind of important message embedded in this work, but sometimes we need to step beyond encouraging people to do things that have positive outcomes, like give charity or healthy for positive reasons, and instead focus on encouraging people to do positive behavior for reasons. That fit with their pre existing values on goals. I don’t know if it was your new york times op ed with your with your co researchers or was one of the pieces i read, you know, your insight could see you’re concerned about being contrary to the morality of charitable giving and that concept of community, but but i understand your concern, but we can we can help the community by tailoring the message appropriately, the way the way you’re describing, um i wanted to ask where we just have about two minutes left. Ashley so where now is your your research going to be heading? Is there going to be more in the in the fund-raising realm? Lorts yes, so i’m starting a major project now, looking at how we can encourage e-giving early on, so how can we encourage mindsets, associate with generosity and giving for kids? And what and what also our conversations? How did conversations between children and parents shape not on ly the way that kids think about the importance of giving but also shaped parents own behavior, so we want often and still in our children the important values that we care about. And we want to know how conversations about e-giving not only affect the way that children prissy e-giving but also affect care and some behavior, but they’re looking to their kids, they’re trying to instill important values to their families and in that could be reminded about the importance of philanthropy, and this interest really came out of a lot of research we did that didn’t work, trying to change people’s minds about giving or the importance of thinking about contributing back to the community, sort of later on in length that we were serving high net worth donors, individuals with hyre levels of wealth, and we found that some wealthy individuals who are more generous tend to think about their success is being drive from the situation from help from others on dh that that seemed to be powerful component on what afflict e-giving but when we tried to take that insight into the field and leverage it to encourage charitable giving were large and successful, one important question then becomes, how can we encourage this? You know, more communal mind set more community focused way of thinking early on before people become financially successful or go through education. And so have become really interested in my collaborators, and i have become really interested in serious about the rule of conversations, the powerful role of conversations, about e-giving early on, both for kids and for parents. And so those are some of the ideas that i’m going to be blurring of the next several years. Alright, excellent good explained like a true professor on, but i hope you just hope you’re not going to rob our children of their youth. We’re not gonna we’re not gonna do it let’s not go to that extent when as you as you in this children for your research work errantly designing about e-giving game. Okay e fine. And also i’m alright. Parents need not be worried toe have their children participate. All right, we have to leave it there. Actually, whillans congratulations on your new phd. You can. You can follow ashley at ashley whillans. Thank you so much for sharing and being a part of non-profit radio. Actually, thanks so much. And congratulations. Thank you so much for having me. Real pleasure. All right, take care. Your board’s role in executive hiring with jean takagi is coming up first. Pursuant, they’re infographic it is five steps to win at data driven fund-raising this infographic would probably be the on the other end of the spectrum from the type of research that we were just talking about with ashley, because this is going this distill things in, you know, five simple steps, which is not what academic research is, but while still valuable all data driven because, you know, pursuing tell you every week data driven they have, they have this infographic that will help you define your goal and what the most important metrics are and optimizing and tuning fine tuning for best results, learning through infographic, you can learn from academic research you can learn through in infographic because you are a you’re a lifetime lerner, and you’re a flexible learner, so don’t ignore the ends of the spectrum and the infographic and the peer reviewed academic research from the folks at pursuing dot com. You go there and then you click resource is then info graphics. We’ll be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. You need more money for your good work. I know you do throw a spelling bee. Anybody can throw a party generic party well, maybe not. Anybody? I mean, i’ve been to some bad parties, but most anybody could throw a decent party but a spelling bee party that takes it to the next level with live music and dancing that’s a that’s, a true party and fund-raising, of course, for your because your your mission, your good work. Check out the video at we b e spelling dot com, then talk to the ceo it’s that simple. Alex greer now tony steak too. The charleston principles. My video is from charlotte, but the principles are from charleston, and i decided that they share enough common letters. First five teo to do a video inspired by charleston even though i was in charlotte and charlotte, north carolina, nicer town. I’ve been there many overnights and there when i shot the video and i’ve never been to charleston, but i can tell from the pictures charlotte’s nicer, i couldjust north carolina, i can see that i see from the pictures the charleston principles there’s a love that has nothing to do with you should’ve fast forward it best that all right, here’s, what we’re talking about charleston principles right now, it’s all about charity registration the state you know where you got to be properly registered need state where you solicit donations. All that charleston principles have some very good ideas and definitions of solicitation problem is it’s hard to tell which states have adopted them of largely, but i can help you. Check out the video at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two now. It’s. Time for jean takagi on your boards role in executive hiring jean takagi he’s with us. You know him? He’s, the managing editor, attorney at neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the very popular non-profit law block dot com on twitter he’s at g tak g ta ke jin takagi welcome back, alt-right onen congratulations on one ninety nine. I’m looking forward to two hundred next week. Cool. Yes. I’m glad you’re gonna be calling in for with us. Thank you very much. Thank you, it’s. Very exciting. Really? One hundred ninety nine shows ago. It’s one hundred ninety nine weeks it’s it’s. Remarkable. We’re talking this week about the board’s role in hiring the executive. And i’ve i understand that there are a lot of executives in transition, i think. So tony and it looks like some surveys have confirmed that it’s certainly been an experience with some of my clients and even on boards i’ve sat on over the last couple years, and there’s, a great group called compass point out in san francisco there, nationally known as one of the most respected non-profit support centers and together with blue avocado, a non-profit online publication, they have a national survey on leadership succession in transition going on just right now. The last time they published the results was in two thousand eleven, and they found that sixty seven percent of current executive anticipated leaving within five years and ten percent. We’re currently actively looking to leave right then, and in two thousand eleven, the economic times weren’t so were so great, so sixty seven percent anticipating leaving within five years that’s a pretty staggering number. So now we’re already three years into that survey into that five year projection. Yeah, and sixty seven percent of two thirds. So if we had held this show off until two thousand sixteen, then it would have been moved. But there’s a new one coming out, you said, yeah, well, they’re they’re just starting the survey online now so you can participate on that. I don’t know the website, but if you, you know google non-profit transition survey executive transition survey, thank you, you’ll get that okay, and its compass point it’s a compass point and blew up a goddamn kottler who you’ve. You’ve mentioned blue vaccaro before i know. All right, so, yeah, two thirds of of ceos were expecting to be in transition within five years and where we’re only three years into it now. So the presumably these people are still looking. What? But boards don’t really spend enough time preparing for this kind of succession, do they? Well, you know, in many cases they don’t, and sometimes, you know, they might stay, they don’t get the chance because their executive director comes up to him and give him two weeks notice. And now, you know, the board may be used to meeting every month or every other month or even every third month, and now all of a sudden they’ve gotta ramp up their efforts and find an executive to come in in two weeks. That’s going to be really tough to do on dh, you know, again, if we say at any given time, two thirds of the non-profit executives are looking to leave their job, you know, it’s very likely that within your board term, you know, you may have an executive transition to manage, and sometimes with very little notice. So that’s that’s? Why? I think succession planning is just really a core duty of non-profit board. Well, how do we let them get away with this two week notice? I mean, the ones i typically see are, you know, the person will stay on until a successor. Is found you that’s, not your experience. Well, you know, you’re really lucky if you if you do get that situation, i think most non-profit executives are hired on at will basis. Meaning that there’s, not a contract to stay there for a given number of years. Either party can conception, rate or terminate the employment relationship at any time. And as the average, you know, employee may give two weeks notice to go on to another job there. Many executives who feel the same way that they, you know, they may feel like they own allegiance to an organization. But another opportunity comes up and it’s not going to be held for them forever. And they may want to move on. Um, and they may feel like what they gave the board really advanced notice that they might be looking for something that they might get terminated. So they may keep that information from the board until the last two weeks. Well, because all right, so that i am way in the dark because i would. I just presumed that executive directors, ceos even if small and midsize shops were not at will. But they were but that they were contract i mean, when i was a lonely back in my days of wage slavery, director of planned e-giving i was in at will employees, which means you can end it like you said, you could end at any time and so can they like, if they don’t like the color of your tie one day they can fire you, you’re at will. But but that that’s typical for for ceos and executive directors. Yeah, i think for smaller non-profits it’s very, very common. Oh, i just always assumed that these were contract positions with termination clause is and no, okay, but, i mean, you know, it’s, your practice, i’m not i’m not disagreeing with you, i’m just saying i’m okay, i’m learning something s o that’s that’s incredibly risky. So it is. It put you in that position of saying, well, i need to replace somebody immediately and i don’t you know, as a board we don’t meet very often can we even convene within the two weeks to start the process going? It’s going to be so much better if you had a plan of what happens in case you know, our executive every doesn’t give two weeks notice, and even if the executive says, you know, in your scenario, maybe a longer notice, maybe, you know, in six months, if they do have a contract at the end of my contract, i don’t plan to renew, you know, i think we should go through the process of looking for for a successor and having a plan or thinking about that plan that have just coming up with something on the fly is going to probably result in a much better choice for selection of a leader in the future and that’s going to be critical and how well the organisation operates and how the beneficiaries of your organization are going to do are they going to get the benefits of a strong organization, or are they going to suffer because the organization can’t do it? You can’t advance to commission as well as it should? No, i mean, you’re you’re calling it on the fly. I would say two weeks notice for an executive director, departing is a crisis, even four weeks notice. Yeah, in many cases, you’re absolutely right. Okay, i’m right about something. Thank you. You’ve got something right today. All right. So, um what do we what do we do, teo, to plan for this? Well, you know, i think the first thing the board has to do is start toe think about the contingencies. So what do we do and and actually want one thought that comes to mind that, uh, that you raised tony is should we get our executive director on an employment contract? If they are and that will employee do we want to walk it in? And they’re sort of pros and cons with that? If you’ve got, like, not the best executive director in the world, terminating somebody on a contract becomes much, much more difficult than if they were at will employees. So, you know, you kind of have to weigh the pros and cons, but, you know, revisiting your current executive director and the employment relationship is maybe step one, and suddenly he was thinking about, well, do you have a really strong job description that really reflects what the board wants of the executive director and the basis on which the board is reviewing the executives performance? And maybe the sort of initial question to ask in that area is do you actually review? The executive director and that the board you absolutely should. You and i have talked about that the board’s is not part of their fiduciary duty to evaluate the performance of the the ceo? Yeah, i think so. I think it’s a core part of meeting their fiduciary duties that really, you know, as a board, if you meet once a month or once every couple of months or whatever. What’s more important, you know, then really selecting the individual who’s going to lead the organization in advancing its mission and its values, and implementing your plans and policies and making sure the organization complies with the law. Taking your leader is probably the most important task that the board has, because the board is delegating management to the to that leader. Yeah, absolutely. And i think it’s often forgot naralo overlooked that individual board members inherently have no power and no authority to do anything so it’s only a group when they meet collectively, can they take aboard action? So for individuals to exercise, you know, powers on behalf of the organization that has to be delegated to them and typically the person responsible for everything is that ceo or the executive director. We’re gonna go out for a break, gene. And when we come back, you now keep talking about the process. The what? What goes into this process, including the job offer. So everybody stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets too. He finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Time. Dana ostomel, ceo of deposit, a gift. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Got to send live listener love let’s. Start in japan with tokyo kiss or a zoo and nagoya. Konnichiwa, seoul, south korea, seoul, some someone south korea, always checking in love that anya haserot. Moscow, russia, mexico city, mexico, ireland. We can’t see your city ireland’s being masked for some reason, but we know you’re there. Welcome, welcome, ireland, and also taipei, taiwan. Ni hao, nobody from china, that’s, funny, nobody from china today, coming back to the u s we got cummings, georgia, in ashburn, virginia. Live listener love to you in georgia and virginia. Okay, gene. So now we’ve let’s say, we’ve learned that our exec is departing and let’s not make it a crisis situation, though let’s say this person is generous enough to give six months notice. So, you know, let’s, not make it a crisis. Where what’s our what’s, our what’s, our first step as the board. Terrific. And i’ll just add, even if you don’t, if you know your executive is not leaving any time soon and i think you should go ahead and start this process anyway. Oh, yeah, clearly we should be. We should have a succession plan in place. Yes, we’ve talked about it, right? Okay, yes, i think the first thing to do is get a committee together so it might include boardmember some outside experts outside with the board. If you don’t have that internal expertise and just getting different perspectives out there, some of your other stakeholders might be really important in what? You know what you want to look for in an executive in the future. So get that committee together first. Get the buy-in of the current executive director bonem so unless it’s going to be, you know, a succession plan for a termination? Yeah, we’re really unhappy with executive director, right? Let’s not get into that. Yeah, let’s get their buy-in and have them help in the process. Especially with your scenario where they’re giving us six months notice and everything is amicable. Let’s, you know, see she who knows better about the organization than the executive director that’s in place right now. So i’m getting there buy-in and help and contribution. I think it is pivotal. Does this committee have to be comprised of hr experts? Why? I think having a least one or two hr experts is going to be really helpful. But i i think it’s more than that. It’s, you need to program people who understand what the executive you know roll is with respect to advancing the program. You need the fund-raising people to know well, what is the going to do with respect to fund-raising perhaps the seeds, the lead fundraiser and some small organizations as well. So we need thio gather a bunch of different people with different perspectives and expertise to figure this out. And i think that’s a very good point to include a t least a programme expert. Now, could this committee include employees, or does it have to be sure you can i absolutely on dh, you know, you might even have have have different subcommittees in there. So eventually this is going to go up to the board. But as the the committee is doing the legwork for determining what you need an executive director and putting together a job description and, you know, perhaps, but the performance evaluation is going to be based on for the future executive director all those things can get, you know, be be aided by the contribution from several areas. Okay, okay, what are your thoughts on hiring a recruiter vs vs? Not well, you know, i think it depends upon what the organization’s resource is our and the organization should understand the marketplaces in a swell hiring two great executive director is the competitive thing, so, you know, if you’ve got a lot of resources and you’re able to you want to allocate an appropriate amount of resource is tio what i think again is making one of your most important decisions of the board? I don’t think you want to do this on the cheap at all. I’m just the same way i didn’t want you to do it on the fly or or or are in a rush matter-ness think you want to invest in this and you don’t have great expertise inside about things, about like, doing job interviews and doing background checks. On the sex thing, you know how to differentiate between one candidate and another when they all look good on paper and when they’re maybe professional interviewees, but they’re not. There may be not great leaders. How do you figure all those things that if you don’t know that on executive search firm could be a great help and it can just open up the marketplace of potential candidates as well? Especially if they, you know, decide to do a regional or even a national search, it really can ramp up hu hu you’re going see in front of you and the quality of the candidates that this election comedian the board eventually will have to choose from. Okay, does the committee now come up with a couple of candidates to bring to the board? Or is it better for the committee to choose one and bring that person to the board? How does this work? You know, i think the committee should be tasked with bringing several candidates up on sometimes it may be a multi tiered process so they might go through two rounds of screening, for example, and and at least let the board see who’s made. The first cut, and then and then, you know, present to the board, the final, perhaps two or three candidates. If you’ve got, you know, ones that are very close and in quality in terms of what the board want in an executive director, i think that’s pivotal. I wanted to add one thing, though. I’ve seen this done before, tony and i don’t really like it and that’s when. If a search committee or search consultant comes up and says, you know, to the board, tell me what you want in a good executive director, everybody you know, spend five minutes, write it down and send it to me, or you take it home and email it to me and tell me what you want. And then the search consultant collates the the the answers and then that’s, you know, the decision about that’s what’s going to be the qualities you’re going to look for. I think this needs a lot of discussion and deliberation and the value of, you know that that thought process and that really difficult thinking and getting all those generative questions out there is going to produce a much better product in terms of what you’re looking for and who you can get and how you’re going to do it. Yeah, you you send this tio use email and, you know, it’s going to get the typical attention that an e mail gets, like a minute or something, you know, it’s it’s going to get short shrift. And your point is that this is critical. It’s it’s, the leader of your organization you want do you want the contributions of the committee to be done in, like, a minute off the top of their head just so they can get the email out there in box? Yeah, definitely. We could talk about board meetings and another show, but put this at the front of the meeting and spend, you know, seventy five percent of your time talking about this. This is really, really important, okay, you have some thoughts about compensation, and we just have a couple minutes left. So let’s let’s say we’ve the board has well, i can’t jump there yet. Who should make the final call among these candidates? Is it the board? Yeah, i think it should be the board that makes the final approval, but they they’re going to put a lot of weight based on what the executive of the search committee, you know, tell them who they’re you know, the recommendation is okay, and i think that toe add one more thing to it is make sure the organization looks good to clean up your paperwork and your programming and even your facilities. Just make sure you’re going to be attractive to the candidate as well, because if you want to attract the best, you better be looking your best as well. Okay, okay. And the with respect to compensation now, we’ve talked about this before. What? What’s excessive. And there should be calms and things like that, right? So it’s really important to make sure that the board or unauthorized board committee one that composed just board members, approved the compensation before it’s offered to the candidate. Even if you don’t know that they’re going accepted or not, once he offers out there that compensation package, total compensation should have been approved by the board. And you want to do it with using the rebuttable presumption of reasonableness procedures unless you know its far below market value. Okay, if you get payed accessibly or if you pay somebody excessively, there could be penalty taxes for everybody. Including the board. Should be careful of that. We have talked about that rebuttable presumption before. Yeah. All right, jean, we have to leave that there. I look forward to talking to you next week on the two hundredth great. Congratulations again. And i look forward to it as well. Thank you, gene. Gene takagi, managing attorney of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group, his blog’s non-profit law block dot com, and on twitter. He is at g tak next week. Social change. Anytime, everywhere, part one with our social media contributor, amy sample ward. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. Responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com creative producer is clear. Myer half family bullets is the line producer durney mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this cool music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gifts. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.