Tag Archives: board expectations

Nonprofit Radio for May 31, 2021: BFD: Board Financials Dilemma

My Guests:

Andy Robinson & Nancy Wasserman: BFD: Board Financials Dilemma

What do you do for board members who can’t read your balance sheet? The authors of “The Board Member’s Easier Than You Think Guide To Nonprofit Finances” can answer that. Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman explain why understanding finances is critical so board members preserve your good work and protect themselves. Do their eyes glaze over when the numbers come out? We’ll help your board achieve financial literacy.

This originally aired on March 2, 2012 as show #81. This is show #540. Take a trip back in time with me. Of course, in 2021, your board members still need to understand your financials.

 

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:11.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and it’s March 2nd 2012.

[00:00:32.74] spk_3:
Who is that low energy uninformed imposter and that music. It’s May 31, This week’s show maybe from the deep archive, but that doesn’t mean we bring back a

[00:00:36.73] spk_0:
Host from six ft under.

[00:00:49.24] spk_5:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:02:24.44] spk_3:
Radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of Takayasu says arthritis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show B. F. D. Board financials dilemma. What do you do for board members who can’t read your balance sheet? The authors of the board members easier than you think. Guide to nonprofit finances can answer that. Andy Robinson and nancy Wasserman explain why understanding finances is critical. So board members preserve your good work and protect themselves. Do their eyes glaze over when the numbers come out, we’ll help your board achieve financial literacy. Yes. This originally aired on March two, That was show # 81. This is show # 540. So take a trip back with me in time. Of course, In 2021, your board members still need to understand your financials, Antonis take two planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is B F D Board Financials Dilemma.

[00:03:08.34] spk_0:
Andy Robinson provides training and consulting for nonprofits in fundraising, board development marketing and earned income. He specializes in the needs of groups working for human rights, Social justice, environmental conservation, historic preservation and Community development. Nancy Wasserman has over 25 years of experience in community finance and social enterprise development. Her particular skill is working with clients on projects that must satisfy both financial and social or community goals. They worked together to co author the book, The board members easier than you think. Guide to Fund to nonprofit finances, published by Emerson in church. And I’m very glad that their collaboration brings them both to the show. Andy nancy. Welcome. Thank you.

[00:03:17.16] spk_2:
Thank you. tony

[00:03:18.37] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you both Andy. Pleasure to have you back

[00:03:22.21] spk_2:
to talk

[00:03:22.98] spk_0:
with you again. Thank you Nancy. Why is this important for board members to care about the financial condition of a charity?

[00:03:45.04] spk_1:
Because that’s really what your charges as a board member, you have the responsibility to make sure the organization is achieving its mission, and the way the best way to do that is to make sure it has the resources it needs to do it. Um And the financial statements and the finance, nonprofit finances is how you know, um pretty quickly what’s going on, especially if you’ve you’ve got that information. You also have some responsibilities to the community um to deliver non profit um uh that does achieve its mission and does it in a responsible and fiduciary fiduciary appropriate way.

[00:04:15.65] spk_0:
So board members are have a fiduciary duty to the charity, right?

[00:04:20.82] spk_1:
Absolutely to the charity and to the public at large.

[00:04:25.06] spk_0:
So why do you say the public at large?

[00:05:01.24] spk_1:
Why? Because the the uh in the U. S. The Internal Revenue Service typically gives charities a uh nonprofit designation which allows them to receive contributions and issue um tax deductible receipts. And because the US is for going that tax um on those on those dollars and giving the public a public benefit, um the IRS exercises oversight of non profit charities and make sure that they really are, um, delivering on their charitable

[00:05:03.78] spk_0:
purpose. So, there is some public money in here. It’s foregone foregone tax revenue

[00:05:10.61] spk_1:
at a bare minimum. Often there’s also, uh, direct public money from government grants or government contracts.

[00:05:19.64] spk_0:
And how about, um, financial problems that can occur within the, within the, um, within the charity? Like, um, you bring out an example in your book of, uh, people not getting their salaries paid, things like that,

[00:05:44.34] spk_1:
you know, you there is that, that oversight potential here, you’re, you are running a small business and, um, you want to make sure that your employees are well cared for, that you’re achieving your mission in, in the world at large. Um, sometimes in, in charities will see folks um, you know, giving up salary, um, and, or, um, deferring payment um, out of the goal of achieving the mission of the organization in the long term, um, that seriously hurts the organization because um, people aren’t really watching what’s happening with the money. Where is it coming in? Where is it going out?

[00:06:14.34] spk_0:
And Andy? Um, isn’t there potential personal liability for board members? When when there are problems like this, like nancy’s describing?

[00:06:21.51] spk_2:
Well, let me do the disclaimer here, which is that neither nancy nor I or attorneys and we can’t give people legal advice.

[00:06:34.24] spk_0:
Okay, Well, there’s no, yeah, I know we haven’t, nobody’s giving you a, I don’t know. The listeners have not given you a retainer fee, so not yet. No.

[00:06:54.34] spk_2:
Okay. I will say this. Um, if there is non payment of payroll taxes, for example, if a sensation goes into debt doesn’t pay the I. R. S. Or state taxing agency’s board members are individually liable for that. Most most expenses. Board members are protected from being personally liable on but there are some exceptions. So I don’t know that that’s what drives this conversation. Board members are simply looking at the balance sheet as a way of making sure that they’re not personally liable. That’s one level on this conversation but there’s a whole lot more levels having to do with the stuff that nancy was talking about. Are we being efficient meeting our mission? Are we tracking our work so that we know we’re being effective and that’s really what financial management is about.

[00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Indeed. Okay. There’s certainly a whole spectrum of reasons why board members should care. I just wanted to bring out the last one which is, there is the potential of, of personal liability. Um, let’s see. Um, we have just about a minute before a break and I’m hoping nancy, why don’t you introduce the idea of the financial dashboard and then we’ll talk a lot more about it right after this break.

[00:08:27.44] spk_1:
Sure. The financial dashboard is something we introduced that, that really gives you a one page sense of how the organization doing. What I’ve found happens with a lot of Nonprofits is that they, um, they give their boards just reams of paper and um, all of a sudden you get the budget and the performance and the balance sheet and there’s 15 pages of financial statements and most board members, even ones who do know how to read financials don’t plow their way through it. And so the dashboard is essentially a one page um, opportunity to get a sense of um, how are you operating financially? Are you being efficient and um, are you having an impact?

[00:08:36.84] spk_0:
Andy I want to throw a question to you quickly. We got a question on twitter from Mazarin. What if an executive director was found stealing one of the things nancy? And I were talking about uh, kind of fraud issues earlier. Um, would you give them a second chance?

[00:09:12.94] spk_2:
Oh boy. Um, well, I’ll be curious to hear nancy’s answer to this. My initial response No, followed by. It depends. And um, I actually was on the board of an organization where we found the opposite problem, which was the board Executive director was pouring money into the organization. He emptied out his retirement account, but he wasn’t telling anybody he did this because the grants weren’t coming through and he was too embarrassed.

[00:09:24.35] spk_0:
So that’s a, that’s a, that’s a problem of being over generous though,

[00:09:28.57] spk_2:
it was paying for himself. We ended up firing the guy and the reason was he wasn’t disclosing to the board what the board needed to do its job. And I would say the issue in that case isn’t so much as misdirection lying. So I am obviously theft is a bad thing, but the board needs full disclosure from the executive director to be able to do their job well. And that’s really where I would go on that.

[00:09:57.14] spk_0:
And how about you nancy? Uh Andy was curious to hear your answer and

[00:10:35.14] spk_1:
I know I would say um again like Andy, it depends um probably depending on the amount of severity and this situation. Um You know, if if the executive director was borrowing $20 from the petty cash um when they forgot to bring um their wallet to work one day. Um clearly that’s not, not egregious enough to to fire somebody. But if uh they’re helping themselves to the uh to the checking account and redirecting grants into their own bank account probably caused fire them

[00:10:41.92] spk_0:
even if they pay it back. Right. That really, even if they pay back with interest, that really doesn’t

[00:11:01.04] spk_1:
matter, does it? I mean, the thing about nonprofits is, you know, they’re not your own private fiefdom or your own private business, there a community, um, engagement where the reason, you know, you have a board of directors that, um, are the final legal responsibility for the organization. Um, so you really shouldn’t be operating it like your own private business.

[00:11:34.14] spk_0:
Let’s talk a little about the dashboard now nancy, the financial dashboard we introduced earlier. Um, it’s a one pager, which I think will be a relief to people is that they’re not getting a sheath of financial, uh, forms and, and, and balance sheets. But what, what, what do you think, what are key parts that should be in this financial dashboard? That to sort of streamline the overview for for board members?

[00:13:19.34] spk_1:
Um I would say that that there’s really three parts to it. There’s a financial part where you’re looking at, you know, sort of what’s our total budget? Um You know, every board member of every organization should be able to very quickly say whether the organization is a $300,000 a year organization or $5 million a year organization? That’s sort of a basic um sense of scale. Um Are we making money or not? Um Do we have net income? Um uh Do we have cash on hand? Those kinds of questions? Um Do we uh do we have a network or we, you know, if everything had to be liquidated today? Um would there be any any money left over or any value left over? Um, that that was tangible value, not just, uh, goodwill. Um, we also want to be looking at at how efficient the organization is and efficiency changes depending on what the organization does. It’s, it’s really a sense of being able to measure you against yourself or against industry standards. Um, and it’s, you know, the, the level of what it costs to deliver, um, services, for example, to severely challenged populations versus what it takes to deliver services to, um, highly educated people in, uh, an urban area where they’re all easily able to get to something. Um, the cost levels are gonna be different. And, and we’re not saying that they should be the same, but to know, um, what it costs for you to serve your clients, um, what it costs to have volunteers, um, and then the impact. And I don’t know, Andy if you want to talk a little bit about that, uh,

[00:14:00.04] spk_2:
how you measure whether you’re meeting your mission or not. And there are often new miracle measures that you can think about. You know, if you’re a land trust, how many acres are you preserving if you do mentoring with Children? How many adult Children matches do you have? I sometimes this is long term tracking, which is hard for a grassroots organizations to do. But in most fields there are ways of measuring your impact in terms of the number of clients you’re serving or the number of audience members who are involved. And hopefully there’s some measures that you can come up with that act. The quality of your work as well. Okay, So people here is, we could get this all on one page. You would have data from two years ago. You’d have data from last year, you’d have data from the current year. You could lay them out and see what the trends are. All

[00:14:22.34] spk_0:
right. That’s the financial dashboard. I love how you guys have this little dance worked out where nancy talks about the financial and efficiency parts, but then she throws it over to a co author, uh Andy for impact and you have it all worked out sort of sort of taking the show over. But it’s ok. It’s in a good way. Um which which leads me to question. All right. So I have to ask when two of when you co author a book, how do you decide whose name comes first? Did you just do alphabetical order or did you flip a coin or uh See I’m too narcissistic to co author with anybody, but but how did you guys work that out? How did you decide

[00:14:47.34] spk_1:
that? Andy Andy’s alphabetically. First on first names and last names. And um, the honest truth is is he did a lot of the writing work, um, where as I did help him with content. So it was very easy for me to go first.

[00:14:58.48] spk_0:
All right. So if I had come in, you wouldn’t have looked only at martignetti you would have also looked at Tony and then I’d have fallen maybe to the bottom, uh, which is probably where I would have had much to contribute to this. So you’re wise not to take me even though I pitched you

[00:15:13.78] spk_2:
otherwise, your name is well known in the community. We might have put your,

[00:15:18.15] spk_0:
uh, your publisher would never have approved that. Um, one of the questions

[00:15:23.80] spk_3:
that we asked before the

[00:15:46.94] spk_0:
show that relates to what we’re talking about now is, um, do you believe all your board members have at least a general understanding of your financial position and 70% said yes, 30% said no. So that’s pretty good, 70%. But the 30% they’re not really very confident a general and that was just a general understanding. Um, Okay. So the, uh, that’s the dashboard. Um, Andy should these things be devoted only to the, the authority of a, of a finance committee?

[00:16:19.64] spk_2:
No, I mean, I think a really good use of the finance committee is the oil stuff down. The rest of the board can understand it provides support to the rest of the board, serve as mentors and back up for the people on staff who were doing this. This book is not about how staff members need to do financial management more effectively. But the reality is a lot of people who are executive directors or even finance directors need help and one of the goals of Finance Committee is to give them that help when they need it. So a way to think about this is so excuse me, if the board is operating at a high altitude and the staff is down on the ground, flashing through the weed, the finance committee is sort of in the middle there providing a bridge between those two groups of people and

[00:16:51.53] spk_0:
so that means that financial dashboard is for the whole board to review. Right?

[00:16:55.99] spk_2:
Yes. How absolutely

[00:17:10.44] spk_0:
was that? A heck yes. Is that you can say hell yes. Okay, Yes. Okay. We have another question on from twitter, um, reminding listeners, you can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non profit radio board members need to look at the impact of the organization and I guess this is for you, since you talked about impact. How do you measure if you’re meeting your mission or not? I guess she’s looking for a little more detail.

[00:17:22.20] spk_2:
Okay. Well

[00:17:24.42] spk_0:
obviously depends what your mission

[00:18:14.04] spk_2:
is. There are some standard benchmarks for how you’re doing. If you work with substance abuse, there are networks that do that, that can talk about ways of tracking your impact. For example, how many people come through a program get clean and stay clean if you are a food bank and you’re delivering food to the community. There’s a number of metrics there that come out of America. America’s harvest. I forget the name of the national network, but they’ll tell you how much money you should be spending more or less based on the population that you’re serving and how much he pounds of food you can put out into the community. Pretty much every nonprofit upset has some metrics that are relevant. And the trick is to learn the ones that are relevant type of organizations who, and then try and adapt them to your particular needs.

[00:18:18.52] spk_0:
And that would be important for the executive director to be recognizing certainly. And then right. And then conveying that to the board.

[00:18:25.04] spk_2:
Yes. And in some cases, depending on the size of the organization, there is some board work to help find those numbers. I mean, I work a lot with really small organizations who has, his staff are overwhelmed and would be great to say to a finance committee on a volunteer basis. I’m trying to figure out what the relevant metrics are for part type of organization who would be willing to do some research and bring that back to us aboard. But in a larger organization. Yeah, that’s going to fall the staff.

[00:19:01.64] spk_0:
One of the other questions we asked pre show, does your board have a committee devoted to financial issues? About 80% said yes and the remainder roughly 20% said No. Um, Nancy, does there, does there have to be a finance committee?

[00:19:48.74] spk_1:
Um, there does not have to be a finance committee. I think it really depends on the size of the organization. Um, the level of support that the director might need. You know, how complex the organization is and uh, also how savvy uh, the board is. If most of the board understands financials and feels quite comfortable with it in a small organization, um, you could get away without a finance committee. I’d say you want one in any organization that’s about to undertake any kind of major financial growth or change or, um, uh, new initiative um, in a larger organization. Um, it just is a great way to assist, um, either the finance manager or the executive director and developing budgets and exercising oversight because things don’t happen is exactly as people plan them to

[00:20:17.64] spk_0:
with me today are Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman co authors of the board members easier than you think guide to nonprofit finances. Um, let’s, let’s talk some about diversifying income sources uh, nancy, you make a point of having that in a couple of chapters of the book. Um why is that important first?

[00:20:30.64] spk_1:
You never want to be totally reliant on just one funder. Um You don’t want to be in a situation where um, if that one funder suddenly says, we don’t like what you’re doing, um that you’re suddenly scrambling and having to find uh, other ways to support your activities and your programs and what you do for the, for folks in the community.

[00:21:01.74] spk_0:
I think we’ve seen a lot of that in, in our recession, uh, agencies that rely exclusively or too heavily on, say, government fees for services or maybe even government agency grants or, and, or foundation grants, uh, those of all sources that have been cut

[00:21:44.34] spk_1:
back. Indeed, that’s true. And that’s part of what, um, it’s both diversifying types of financial support, but also, um, the number of supporters within each type, so you’re not totally reliant on just one foundation or one charitable donor, um, and, uh, and that you have that diversity of donors and foundations and government and, uh, your own revenues, If there’s a way for you to do that.

[00:22:06.74] spk_0:
We have a comment again from twitter. Um, just gonna point out to, uh, the person who wrote that, john that we did talk earlier about individual personal liability for non profits. You may have missed that part of the show, but you can always catch it on the archive on ITunes and our itunes pages. non profit radio dot net. Um Then

[00:22:08.54] spk_3:
what are

[00:22:09.81] spk_0:
Andy some of the sources of income that a nonprofit might look to that they’re not currently exploiting.

[00:23:09.44] spk_2:
There’s three big buckets here. tony The first book, It is private giving. Private giving is foundations, corporations, individuals and of course people leave behind when they pass away the big category there as individuals and within private giving about 80% of the money. Year after year comes from people and most of the groups that I work with don’t invest enough time and energy raising money from individual donors. So that’s the first category. Second category is public funding, that’s government funding from earl state, local, regional, municipal, all the government levels. And as you already indicated, this is a shrinking resource right now. And the groups that I think are getting hammered the worst during the recession or the that are relying on government. The third bucket is earned income, which is non profits arching for the services they provide are in some cases selling goods community and of the three, that’s the biggest of all this is sort of the surprise for people is that earned income is about the same amount as private and public funding put together when you look at all the nonprofit across the country.

[00:23:24.14] spk_0:
That’s interesting. Yeah. You don’t generally see that in in fundraising reports like giving us a earned income is not part of their

[00:23:29.40] spk_2:
private philanthropy. They’re very clear the numbers a little skewed because if you’re a private college and you’re charging tuition that shows up as earned income if you’re a private hospital and you’re charging a nonprofit hospital, you’re charging for medical services that shows up as earned income. So those numbers really sort of skew the data. But I work with a number of organizations where I’m always pushing them to say, is there something you do that you can package up and sell you have some skill that people would buy from you?

[00:23:59.24] spk_0:
It’s time for a break.

[00:24:57.64] spk_3:
Turn to communications, where would you like to be heard? News outlets, conferences, podcasts, blogs, that’s all earned media and turn to, can help you get it. They’ve got the relationships. What about your media that’s owned media turn to, can help you improve that as well because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony Take two planned giving accelerator is the online membership community that I have created to teach you how to launch your planned giving program. I’ll teach you step by step through trainings, live trainings, resources, podcasts, Ask me anything sessions. All of those are each month and we will get your plan giving

[00:25:00.08] spk_0:
program launched

[00:26:01.64] spk_3:
members of the first class, the one that started in january. Some of them already had gifts by three months in by March, so that three months into a 12-month class gift commitments already coming. So that can happen for you to you can be getting gift commitments in the first three months. The next class starts July one. I have priced this very reasonably, Especially when you consider, well, first of all, it’s just reasonable. But then when you consider that the average charitable bequest is $35,000. Take a look, it’s all at planned giving accelerator dot com And that is Tony’s take two. Yeah, we have boo koo but loads more time for B. F. D. Board financials dilemma. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:26:05.74] spk_0:
Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman with me. We’re talking about BFG board financial dilemma. Andy earned income. What can a charity possibly do? What you should be looking at to try to make some money off their activities their work?

[00:26:24.94] spk_2:
Well, the question I always ask groups that are wondering about this is what do you have, what do you do or what do you know somebody else ought to have or do or no most non profit during the service business. We deliver services. Sometimes we have expertise in that area and you know I mean there’s a structured brainstorm that people can do around this. A lot of what we do in the nonprofit world is pivot away and the really entrepreneurial organizations look at what they’re giving away and they say paying market for this and you know we can we can spend the rest of the show talking about this. I don’t know if you want to, but there’s a lot of opportunities there and I see many, many organizations could be more self sufficient financially if they got at figuring out what they know and how to package it up.

[00:27:18.01] spk_0:
Is there an example you can share with us a charity that didn’t realize what they had and and then ended up being able to exploit it and make some money from it?

[00:28:14.04] spk_2:
Well, I’m an author of a book on this subject called selling social change and what’s my favorite example of this? Um, you know, I’m for a group for years in Tucson Arizona called Native Search. Their seed banks on native american crops and you know what they do is protect beats from going extinct by planting them and growing them and distributing them and probably 30% of their of their income. It’s details, their seed bank and they sell it. What they recently started doing, which was fascinating is they opened something they called the school and these are people who want to learn about how to protect seeds, grow them, pass them on to the next generation’s really about biological and genetic. Pay money and they come to Arizona for a week and they get trained and everything you need to know to run your own seed bank. And it’s an organization that was sitting on this for probably 30 years, only recently realized that people would pay for that knowledge in a classroom setting. They

[00:28:29.49] spk_0:
have been doing that all for

[00:28:30.41] spk_2:
free. They hadn’t been training other people, they’ve been taking care of the seeds, but they hadn’t been teaching. I see, okay. And they realized there are a whole renaissance of local agriculture in our country right now and they thought we could tap into this. There’s a market here for people who want to learn how to do this. And so they started doing this and they’re doing this four or five times a year and it sells out and they’re starting to move it around to other parts of the country. So that’s one example.

[00:28:54.90] spk_0:
That’s an example of knowledge. They had a knowledge and a skill that was very marketable.

[00:29:12.54] spk_2:
That’s right. And until you have what you need for better worse is you need someone in the organization who has an entrepreneurial jean who can look around and say, you know what, somebody’s going to want to buy this. And not every nonprofit is blessed with people who think that way. And I think part of what nancy and I are trying to do in our professionalized is to get more of that thinking out into the nonprofit community way

[00:30:07.24] spk_0:
and the related to uh diversifying income. I I had a comment from linked in this, uh, woman had just had a board meeting this earlier this week regarding the need for transparency and distribution of responsibility. When it comes to the finances, bookkeeping and reporting function of their historic nonprofit theater, they’ve been doing their thing. Uh, they’ve been doing things their way a long time. And one big problem is that they have a banker on the board and he doesn’t see the problems. Um, uh, so it sounds like, and and then she says, I was able to get the check writing privileges moved to another person. This is sort of segue into a conflict of interest conversation, but sounds like maybe he was the only one writing checks. Um, I secured a nice grant from a foundation and they want a financial audit. I’m moving for a review. However fear we won’t get any more money once it’s known how ignorant the board is about accountability uh nancy. Uh And he’s laughing nancy. Let’s bring you back. What would you what would you say there?

[00:31:44.94] spk_1:
Well you know how are we defining accountability here? Is there a lack of what a financial audit might uncover? Um Is impropriety? But it sounds like that’s not the case. Um More likely it’s going to um It’s not the financial audit per se but the form 9 90 that you file with the I. R. S. Which ask you now to tell us, does does the boards look at financials um How does is the board of informed, has the board seen an audit? Um uh Did they review it and approve? Um It’s really um you know there there’s sort of two sets of questions. The very pragmatic, did did you get an audit? Did you review it? Did you look at it? Um And then the more important question in my mind, which I think is the question we’re trying to answer with the whole book, which is, does the board really understand what all these numbers are telling them? And ideally with with a financial audit and accountant has come in and um, spoken directly with the board of directors and walked through each and every page of it and talked about why the financials are the way they are and what they mean. Um And I think both Andy and I have seen numbers of organizations where um there’s a lot of people sitting around the table and they leave it to the banker, um or the investment professional to, you know, they they know about numbers and they handle it and it’s really something that everybody needs to know how to do. Um, if only to make sure that the mission of the organization is uh, fully addressed by the board and the organization.

[00:32:28.44] spk_0:
This also relates to the conversation about diversifying income. I mean, here this woman, uh, I believe she’s a fundraiser, there, a volunteer fundraiser and uh, trying to diversify income source, getting a grant but fearful that the grant may not be renewed because there isn’t transparency and accountability that the, the the grant source will probably be seeking.

[00:32:45.74] spk_2:
And this is another point that was raised, sort of came out of sideways. Is this question about separation of duties, which is, you know, in a healthy organization, people break up that work. One person opens the envelope and somebody else writes the checks and somebody else approves them and somebody else gets the bank statement and balances the checkbook. And the idea here is that you’re trying to avoid mischief and fraud and if somebody says, oh I’ll take care of all of these things, maybe they have good intentions and they’re going to be perfectly honest about it. But you really need to break that into separate pieces so people can have oversight over each other.

[00:33:15.64] spk_0:
Let’s segue into the conflict of interest, um, Andy defined for us. What a conflict of interest is here. It’s so often,

[00:33:58.74] spk_2:
Well, my sense of it, at least in terms of the context we’re having here, is that if you serve on a nonprofit board, your job is to put the needs of the organization above your own personal needs. And where this plays out sometimes is people who try and receive a benefit from serving on a board. That the personal benefit that has nothing to do with advancing the mission of the organization. Where this gets tricky is that in a lot of voluntary organizations, there are inherent conflicts of interest. But if you goes to a private school and you’re on the board, your job is to advocate for policies that are going to benefit the Children in the school, and in some case that means they’re going to benefit your kid individually and sort of sorting those things out can be challenging. But the bottom line is the decisions you make have to put the needs of the organization in front of your own personal need

[00:34:19.83] spk_0:
nancy. How can we try to avoid conflicts of

[00:35:47.04] spk_1:
interest? One of the best ways is to have a written conflict of interest policy where you’ve already addressed some of the situations that are likely to happen before they happen, um, where you sit there and say, you know, define what it is that is seen as either a real conflict of interest or perceived conflict of interest, which might be a case where um, somebody was, for example, can somebody bid somebody who serves on the board of directors bid on a project while they’re still on the board of directors or not? Or do they have to resign before they even submit a bid? Or do they only resign if they’re awarded the bid, or do they have to resign? Or can they simply step out of the room for the discussion? Um Those are the kinds of questions that got kind of uh can get kind of challenging, um, particularly when any member of the board stands to benefit financially, um, from any decision of the board. Um That’s uh an outright in my mind and outright conflict of interest. Um, and, um, in most boards, you want to make sure that person doesn’t participate. And it’s, it’s always easier to have that discussion, um, when there isn’t a hot potato sitting in the room, that’s, um, somebody’s thinking that they have every right to be part of the discussion. Um, and you have to therefore bring up both the fact that somebody in the room is feeling uncomfortable that this person is present. Um, and, um, it gets a little bit more tense in those sorts of situations. Prevention is having a written policy that folks have already talked through and everybody feels responsible for making sure it’s enforced.

[00:36:11.93] spk_0:
So prevention ahead of time much better than dealing with it when it’s a, a crisis or a potential crisis.

[00:36:13.83] spk_1:
Right? And, you know, it also, um, is the transparency issue you want to make sure that your presentation to the community at large is um, is as an accountable organization, um, that that gives everybody um equal opportunity to benefit from um, the organization’s purchases.

[00:36:34.49] spk_0:
Is this the kind of policy that a board member should sign and review every year or something

[00:37:00.13] spk_1:
like that? It’s not a bad idea. Oh, you know, it depends on the nature of the organization. I you know, I’ve worked with a community loan fund and that’s absolutely required that you disclose um your conflicts of interest each and every year and that you review the conflict of interest policy every year. Um The other thing that’s incredibly important is disclosed, disclosed, disclosed.

[00:37:05.21] spk_0:
We have just a minute before a break and anything you want to add to conflict of interest discussion.

[00:37:11.17] spk_2:
I think the main thing is that if you see it, you have to name it after. If your board member and you smell something like this, you have to have the courage to bring it up. And as nancy said, it’s much easier to do this if there is an existing policy in place first,

[00:37:23.56] spk_0:
if somebody sees something like this Andy again, just a few seconds before a break, who should they bring it up to you? I’m a board member. Who do I talk to?

[00:37:39.83] spk_2:
Probably go to the chair first and say, I think there’s something fishy here, let’s talk about it and I would start there and then presumably the board, the chair will bring it to the full board. Mhm. Mhm

[00:37:50.53] spk_0:
Welcome back to big non profit ideas for the other 95% on Tony-Martignetti non profit radio nancy, let’s talk a little about financial statements. What

[00:37:53.91] spk_3:
what uh what are the basics

[00:37:55.71] spk_0:
first, what’s the

[00:38:11.62] spk_1:
overview? Um there’s really two major statements that everybody um has to deliver ones the balance sheet, which is a snapshot on any given day. Um Typically the end of the month or the end of the quarter the end of the year, um Which outlines um what the organization owns and what they owe and what they’re worth, which is the difference between everything they own. Um less everything they owe um As far as its paper value is what they would be worth on that day. Uh The other major statement is the statement of activities, also called the profit and loss or A. P. And L. Um Which is where do you get all your money, your income, your revenues from. Um And then what does it go to pay for all your expenses? And the bottom line there is your net income at the end of and of a certain time period. Uh The statement of activities is more like a movie. It covers a period of time. Uh Typically uh the beginning of the year to the end of the most previous sorry the most recent months. Um So if we were on a board uh today we probably wouldn’t see the the statement of activities through the end of february because somebody would have had to have it all cleaned up as of yesterday, but we could expect to see something through the end of january. Um And depending on what your fiscal year was um would determine the beginning period.

[00:39:45.42] spk_0:
We talked earlier about full disclosure. So I’m gonna make a disclosure. The only accounting course that I’ve ever taken I dropped out of because I was I was I was going to fail. So um so I’m perfect for this book. This it’s very informative and it is an easy read and it is helpful guide um nancy help me understand this was always seem like magic to me on a balance sheet. How is it that the assets equal to the liabilities? How does that always come out? So equal? I mean uh it’s intended that way obviously, how does that

[00:40:01.35] spk_1:
possible? It seems like um now you’re asking somebody who was not trained as a classically trained accountants,

[00:40:07.75] spk_0:
you can’t pull back. Now your name is on the book, your name is there, I’m looking right at it says nancy Wasserman,

[00:40:12.49] spk_1:
but it’s um it’s based on double entry bookkeeping which was developed by the chinese and it’s uh follows up from the abacus and um really was sort of uh uh amplified by the Italians in the renaissance essentially when you put an entry in double entry book, keeping everything that goes up, something has to go down and uh it all balances out in the end and the cash comes out. And if your balance sheet that’s like number one, if the balance sheet, if the total assets does not equal the total liabilities and equity, um it is an incorrectly prepared balance sheet and they call it a balance sheet.

[00:40:51.96] spk_0:
Right? Yes, exactly, I love that my italian forebears had something to do with confusing me now in the current day. Um Okay, what how can we help uh Board members nancy, who whose eyes kind of glaze over when they get to the balance sheet, Aside from looking to see whether the two uh the assets and liabilities equal, which they always

[00:42:08.60] spk_1:
do right. Step number one, the balance. Um Number two, um Do your total current assets, in other words, what what can be cash within a year’s time, um exceed your current liabilities? The things you have to pay off with cash in a year’s time. And so are you liquid or not? Do you have, do you have cash available to do things? Um This is the place where you’re looking for those payroll liabilities or payroll tax liabilities. If there’s a number there that’s frighteningly large, um you’ve got a big problem and if it’s payroll tax liabilities, um you as a board member may be personally liable. Um What are your long term liabilities look like? Is that that’s your debt basically. And you know, does it make sense to you? Is that number reflects the debt? You know the organization has um your net net assets. Now, you know the language of accounting is kind of like greek and um I sometimes think they made up all these names to make it even more confusing.

[00:42:17.36] spk_0:
It would be so much easier if it was, it was italian,

[00:42:19.74] spk_1:
it could be,

[00:42:21.37] spk_0:
it would be, it would, there’s lots of cognitive and it’s a romance language. I think it would be, I’m sorry.

[00:42:56.20] spk_1:
No problem. But that total net assets number, which simply means, you know what this organization more. Um, if it, if it had to liquidate today and um, if that’s a negative number, you should be concerned. Um, and, and there’s certainly many organizations where that is the case. Um, so those are the big things on the balance sheet. You know, does it, does, it sort of makes sense to you to the fixed assets and their value. Um, feel like what you have if you suddenly see something that shows that you have a fixed asset of, you know, equipment worth $100,000 and you’re scratching your head because you have no idea what you have for equipment. Um, Something’s wrong with the balance

[00:43:10.68] spk_0:
and you should and should ask that question. Absolutely. You mentioned earlier frighteningly large numbers, I mean, is part of what we should be doing, looking for anomalies.

[00:44:01.79] spk_1:
Um That’s really what you’re looking. You’re looking for things that, you know, that don’t make sense or don’t feel right or that you can’t um if you can’t, if it doesn’t feel right and you can’t really explain it, you want to ask questions. Um, and, and the numbers, you know, the thing about numbers is um, they’re pretty um, they’re very, you know, they’re either on or off and um, it’s harder to lie with numbers. Um, so you’re gonna know right away that you could have frighteningly large numbers with a, with a complex organization and that would be fine. Um, if if they’re they’re balanced out, if there’s cash in the bank, if it feels like there’s equity.

[00:44:37.09] spk_0:
Mm This is a critical subject. Another question that I asked on the, on the pre pre show survey is for those charities that do have a board committee devoted to financial issues. Are you confident that each committee member is fluent in your numbers and understand your financial position? Only 25% said yes. The remaining 75% were either no or not sure and no was pretty large. About 60%. We have to stop there. Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman are co authors of the board members easier than you think. Guide to nonprofit finances published by Emerson and Church Andy Nancy. Thank you very much for being guests.

[00:44:50.52] spk_1:
Thank you Tony.

[00:44:56.59] spk_0:
Thanks for having us. It’s been a real pleasure. And also thanks to your publisher, Kathleen Brennan at Emerson in church for her promotion assistance for the show.

[00:45:35.69] spk_3:
That was fun. A bit of nostalgia. I had to keep in a short burst of eye of the tiger had had to do that. Thank you for ramping back in time with me Next week. Our 2021 nonprofit technology conference coverage continues. Oh, conference coverage continues. I like that. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o.

[00:45:49.59] spk_5:
Our creative producer is Clan Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm Right, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the

[00:45:56.39] spk_3:
Other 95

[00:45:58.99] spk_5:
go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for March 22, 2021: Build Your Best Better Board

My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Build Your Best Better Board
Gene Takagi returns! He’s got strategies to help you build the diverse, effective, thoughtful, appropriately-sized, well-trained board you deserve. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations law group.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:39.64] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast, and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with dyskinesia if you gave me a taste of the idea that you missed this week’s show. Build your best Better board. Jeanne Takagi returns. He’s got strategies to help you build the diverse, effective, thoughtful, appropriately sized, well trained board you deserve. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group tony State, too. Podcast pleasantries and planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s my pleasure to welcome back, as it always is. Jeanne Takagi. These are legal contributor, managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the enormously popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com, and he’s at G Attack Gene, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:41.84] spk_1:
Thanks, Tony. It’s great to be back. How are you?

[00:01:59.94] spk_0:
I’m doing well. Thank you. It’s always a pleasure. Many, many years. It’s a pleasure. Each time you’re you are teaching us what’s important, what we need to keep centered. What’s, uh where are ships Should all be facing in the same direction. So what direction is that? You keep us. Keep us on the straight path. I appreciate it. I know our listeners due to thank you.

[00:02:06.34] spk_1:
Thank you, Tony.

[00:02:23.84] spk_0:
Let’s get started with your building. Your best. Better board. We’re not We’re not gonna We’re not going to settle on nonprofit radio for your lackluster better board. We want your best, Better board. And I think the place to start is with board roles. So what are we expecting our board members to do?

[00:02:52.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I love this conversation, tony. It’s actually one of my favorites. And yeah, it was probably Gosh, it was early on, I think when we first talked a little bit about boards getting sort of distracted from doing the financial oversight and forgetting to do some of the other things that boards are supposed to do. Um, and, you know, part of what we talked about could have been, like 78 years ago was like, Hey, somebody should be over overseeing. You know, whether the program’s doing Are they having an impact or not? Are they really furthering your mission in the way that you want them to?

[00:03:11.94] spk_0:
You know, I have to remind you you and I did a mock board meeting one time, and either you threw me off the border. I walked out. I forget

[00:03:15.22] spk_1:
which

[00:03:30.04] spk_0:
back in the old studio was many years ago. I don’t know what we’re talking about. Something board related, obviously. But, uh, yeah, either I got booted off or I walked out and quit. I forget, uh, we’re trying to avoid that. We’re trying to avoid that in our best better board,

[00:03:32.54] spk_1:
but we’re definitely going to try to approach any of these things with extreme tact

[00:03:37.84] spk_0:
I lack, which I often lack. I probably walked out. I probably quit or something.

[00:06:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, just just overall, the same financial diligence is great. So take a look at the financials, make sure you understand them and make sure that the organization is able to pay off its debts that they become do that you’re not sort of bleeding money and just managing your financial assets. But non profits exist more than to produce a financial bottom line, of course. So you know in the for profit world boards and probably got a different duty, maybe a little bit more. I mean, everybody has to act in the best interests of the corporation, right? That’s a fiduciary duty. But what is the best interests of the corporation for for profit? Oftentimes it’s associated, at least in large part the benefit of its owners or shareholders. But in the non profit, there are no shareholders or owners, right? It’s for the benefit of advancing the mission. And that’s what the board has got to remember, that it’s got to be purpose driven. It’s got to be, um, acting in furtherance of the mission ahead of everything else. Um, and the one caveat I’ll add to that which we may have talked a little bit about before, as well is you’ve got to add values to that statement, so their values probably baked into your mission statement but also baked into the organizational culture. So if our mission is to feed people who are experiencing homelessness or a lack of income, resources or we’re not just going to throw food out in a trough, right? You know that might be the best way or the most effective way to get as many people fed as possible. But that would be completely inconsistent with anybody’s values. Or so values and mission sort of go hand in hand, and focusing on that is really important. So not just financial oversight, the programmatic oversight the role of the board has got to look forward to. You’ve got to set the path with those values and mission for the organization’s future, not just looking behind you, but looking ahead, um, and so guiding the organization with those thoughts, acting as ambassadors, getting the feedback from the environment about what challenges and what opportunities may be out there. Those are all things the board can bring back to the executive and to the staff, sort of to help them do their best.

[00:06:44.34] spk_0:
And these are all very, uh, lofty. And and, um, I don’t want to say pedagogical, because that makes it sound like they’re not grounded, but But these are these are very we haven’t even talked about. You know how many board meetings you have to attend in a year. And how many subcommittees you have to serve on? You know, we haven’t gotten to that yet. You know, we’re talking about the the ambition, but it has to be centered. It’s It’s like you said. It’s the mission and values of the organization. I mean, if someone doesn’t respect those, then you’re not gonna get your best better board. You’re going to get a crappy person. Maybe it gives a lot of money, but ultimately, the ships are not sailing in the same direction with all the board members on each one.

[00:06:50.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And I loved your introduction about having the best Better board. Not this lackluster,

[00:07:13.34] spk_0:
lackluster better. But yeah, that’s for other podcasts, not on the radio. We don’t tolerate lackluster mediocrity, mediocre better boards that we want to. We want the best Better board. All right, so So it really it really does start with loft and ambition around around Mission and values.

[00:07:15.74] spk_1:
I definitely think so.

[00:07:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So now let’s drill down. I mean, in terms of what we’re expecting the board to do, you have to be up front with what these expectations are and that that happens in recruitment, right? Not not in their first board meeting. You should be explaining the expectations while you’re talking to somebody about joining the board. Not after they have joined.

[00:07:41.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. And too often. I see tony and I don’t know if you’ve experienced this as well, but somebody tries to recruit you onto the board and they go, It’s really not that much work, you know. It’s easy. Um, well, that’s going to get you a lackluster and maybe not even a better board. So,

[00:07:59.57] spk_0:
um,

[00:08:45.54] spk_1:
yeah, so it really is about setting expectations of Hey, you really believe in this mission and you have the same values that we’re trying to move forward with. Let’s do something great with this organization. Let’s make a great impact here. This is These are the kind of things that we expect of our board. This is how often we meet. You know, this is, um, what we expected each board member in terms of attendance and in terms of maybe making a meaningful contribution. I don’t like set amounts because that can hurt diversity and inclusive inclusion. But a meaningful donation to to the organization it could be in time if not in money or in other ways. But the expectations, I think, need to be spelled out in front before you actually invite somebody onto the board.

[00:09:00.24] spk_0:
And when you’re spelling them out, I mean, do you Do you like to see a writing a document with, you know, Please take this home with you and consider consider, as we’re having our conversations about about you being on the board, consider all these things like you give them a document to read or just a conversation.

[00:09:24.64] spk_1:
I think both tony. So I I you know, it may depend upon the organization how formal they get, but if you do actually have a recruiting sort of policy or procedure or recruiting committee in place, I like to put some things down in writing just to make sure that we’re all on the same page and letting people know what the organization’s expectations are and how often boards meet. And if there is a meaningful contribution, expectations all of those things up front. So if somebody is not interested, they can right away say, you know, this isn’t for me, you know, I like what you do. But it’s not for me and another person who might say I’m really interested in doing all of those things. You know? I’d love to be a part of your board,

[00:10:11.94] spk_0:
All right? So be upfront about expectations. There’s no point in in concealing the work and the requirements, only to have the person blindsided when it comes time around, when it comes time for each board member to make their annual contribution. And and And they didn’t know that it was supposed to be a meaningful gift or they didn’t know there was a board giving requirement of any sort. You know, when it comes time to assign committee. So I didn’t know I was gonna be on a committee. I thought I just came to board member board meetings four times a year. Now we have committee meetings to I didn’t know about that, and then you set yourself up for a disaster.

[00:10:46.54] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And if you if you start to um, the danger of it is is you don’t want to just sort of create this list of these are the things you have to do for the organization to run. You’ve got to always again relate it back to the mission and values. This is why we love to contribute as board members to the organization. Because this is what impact we can have. And this is the direction we see ourselves going to be able to have even greater impact. So you just keep reinforcing that message to get your best board members.

[00:10:55.74] spk_0:
You let me ask you a question. Are you Are you, uh Are you by any chance, playing with a pen or or anything?

[00:11:02.14] spk_1:
I am not rocking back and forth on my chair.

[00:11:06.44] spk_0:
And I know there’s, like, a little clicking, and I’m not. I know you’re not. I know you’re not typing like you’re not writing a document while we’re talking

[00:11:13.94] spk_1:
about you’re

[00:11:14.15] spk_0:
writing a client agreement or something.

[00:11:16.51] spk_1:
Typical things you expect from a lawyer, right?

[00:11:32.14] spk_0:
Yeah. You double bill your time, right. You get $800 an hour billed to clients at $400 an hour. You’re sitting in one’s office. You’re doing the work for the other. No. Okay. No, you’re not. Your hands are free, okay? I don’t know. There’s, like, little the mice are clicking or

[00:11:33.26] spk_1:
something. Maybe I’m rocking in my chair. I will try to hold back my enthusiasm.

[00:12:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, Alright. It doesn’t It doesn’t sound like that. Okay, Well, listeners, I can’t identify the sound of the but I’ll call it out because I’m not going to keep it quiet because we all hear it, so we’ll talk about it. Well, I don’t know what it is. This little tapping, clicking my mouse sound. Let’s talk about diversity. This should be a value. You and I have talked about this. We’ve had heartfelt conversations a couple of times about white male power and using that power and sharing power. And so let’s talk about diversity as a value for your board. How does that play into what we’re talking about? Your your best. Better board?

[00:14:50.74] spk_1:
Sure. You know, for the organizations who have responded to sort of this increasing understanding and awareness that diversity is an issue in various aspects, not just on board composition, but in the way our infrastructure as a country and even as the world is designed where, um, people who are in positions of power, no matter what race or gender or whatever, whatever they are tend to create systems that keep themselves in power. And so diversity has this great benefit of saying, Let’s take other lenses and look at what we’re doing. And look at the world that we’re in, um, for nonprofits, especially the world that’s directly impacting what we’re trying to do out there for. The people were trying to do it for what is impacting it, who is being affected the most, Um, and if that’s important to to organizations and their leaders, then I think they’ve really got to embrace diversity, not just by saying it, but by actually putting action steps into what they’re doing, Whether that’s going to be building it into true board diversity with inclusion. So not making people feel, you know, like they’re they’re just a simple tokens of taking a better picture but really being able to contribute to the power of the organization to address things that other people may not have seen. So, you know, I may identify with people who I relate to, but I may have very little understanding your perspective of people who are different from me who congregate in different circles who have different ideas. Um, and we have to think about all of those things, especially for serving a classic. Beneficiaries that are board members may be far away from. So if we have a board that’s more privileged, and we are helping a lot of people who don’t have some of the privileges that the board may have in terms of representation, how will we ever see the world through their lens? How will they understand? How will we understand where services are doing from their eyes? So trying to to get that diversity in an inclusive matter for purposes of increasing equity, I think, is a value that non profit should strive for.

[00:16:11.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break turn to communications relationships. They’ve got the relationships with the media outlets so that when you need to be in the news, when there’s a news item that you need to comment on, your voice needs to be heard. Turn to has the relationships to get you heard. It’s not cold calling. They have the existing relationships. They give it like gifts. You get a lot of gifts from cold calls. Do you get any gifts from cold calls? You get your best gifts from cold calls. If you’re doing cold call fundraising. No, you don’t. Of course, it’s the same with media. The relationships are in place. So when you want to be heard, turn to picks up the phones and leverages those relationships That way you’re gonna get heard. Turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Now back to build your best. Better board. Diversity has to be centered. Um, but And you wanted to go deeper than just like the board should reflect the community or the board should reflect those we serve. You mean you’re looking for something deeper than just reflecting an environment?

[00:18:17.04] spk_1:
I think so. So it is reflecting different perspectives as well. So I think traditionally, we thought of it as a skills based diversity. Like we need a lawyer. We need an accountant. We need a financial manager, a fundraiser on our board. And then we became all a little bit more woke and we said, Hey, we need racial diversity in our organizations. Um, but we didn’t say why that was or many of us didn’t say, why do we need racial diversity in our organizations? Is it simply to make it look like we embrace diversity and we take the better picture? Or is it because we want a true understanding from somebody else with a different lens and perspective? Who could tell us if there are gaps in our services for their communities? If there are gaps in the laws that are creating inequities that affect our mission as well? So the more we get these other perspectives, whether it be from a racial diversity angle from a disability angle, which I think is increasingly a really important thing to look at as we are facing an older population where disabilities are highly, you know, they make up a great percentage of our organizations and they’re kind of sort of the the unseen Group in many ways, um, we’re just getting started on addressing some of those concerns. But, um, the way we serve people can really miss many of those that are impacted, that that would be true beneficiaries of our service if they could access our services. But if we don’t make it accessible to them, then we just missed them, and that may be completely unintentional. But if we don’t have people who can identify and spot those things because they live it, um that would be, you know, short a shortfall in leadership. And that’s where we have to sort of address, Um, taking a look with a much broader lens and not just in our boards, but in our programming, in our staffing and just getting more awareness and bringing more lenses to what we’re doing.

[00:18:55.54] spk_0:
Let’s talk about bringing someone new to the board because we’re gonna be recruiting our new board members that are going to be part of our best better board. So now if we’ve recruited the right people, we need to socialize them to the organization. It’s more than I think. It’s more than just formal training. You know, the the organization has a culture. The board has a culture. Hopefully, they’re healthy. Let’s assume, but let’s take that. Let’s assume that these are healthy. Culture is not. Not. Cultures were trying to reverse, uh, you know, like intolerance or something. But healthy cultures. There’s a formal training and an informal training.

[00:20:26.74] spk_1:
I absolutely agree with you, so you know orientations can start even at recruitment. But once you decide that you want to elect somebody onto the board and they want to be part of the board and you elect them. I think it really is important now for them to be ingrained in what the organizations and the board culture is, what the priorities are getting a better sense of what the programs are. I’ll confess. I’ve been part of boards where I may not have a very good understanding of some of the programs. I get lost in some of, you know, again, the financial reports and maybe one program officer. You know, a year shows up and describes their program well, that that’s not really giving me a full sense of what the organization is doing. So more of that, um, is really going to be beneficial. Um, it will also help in sort of preventing there from being this wall between who the board is and who the staff and who are. The people that are actually implementing the program are other than the executive director, so boards often just meet with the executive director. But in an orientation or training, I think more deeply getting ingrained and that’s a board staff retreat. Joint retreats are good things. Board buddies and maybe a board staff buddy system could also

[00:20:31.34] spk_0:
is that like is that a mentoring board board buddy?

[00:20:53.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it could be partly mentoring, but I think the relationship really extends both ways, right? We can get more information from an outsider’s perspective to help the organization, and when they have fresh eyes, they may see different things. So instead of just saying, I know more than you, I’m going to mentor you. We can be buddies and learn from each other.

[00:20:56.64] spk_0:
And then you mentioned staff buddies, too.

[00:21:21.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I I don’t think it’s a bad idea for boards again to get more involved with their staff. We don’t want to micromanage. So there is this fine line there. But just getting an understanding from the staff about what they see in the organization, I think is important other than the executive director who may be the one who attends every board meeting. But if we just see one other staff member once a year, that really isn’t giving a sense of what is going on and what the organizational culture is. We might know what the board culture is, but do we really know what the organizational culture is?

[00:22:10.34] spk_0:
If it’s a staff buddy, it’s not only micromanagement, from the board member down. But then you also have to be conscious of the staff member trying to leverage a relationship with a board member like trying to do something or avoid doing something that the CEO may want or their vice president that they report to may want or something. You know, uh, that just it has to be managed. That’s all. Just You have to be conscious of the possibility of somebody exploiting and a relationship with the board members saying things that are inappropriate. The board members.

[00:22:52.14] spk_1:
I think this has to be designed with a consultant who really understands the area because you’re absolutely right. Tony. Yeah, if you if you aren’t careful, what you’re doing is you’re creating people going behind the executives back to make complaints to board members. And that’s not what the purpose is. So it might be controlled by saying, Hey, the board staff buddy thing is a meeting of the board and staff person in a joint group in a group where we’re all meeting in different corners of the room and just talking about certain specific topics so it can be regulated a little bit more carefully with rules of the game spelled out in advance. This is not a place to complain about employment issues. This is Yeah.

[00:23:04.34] spk_0:
Um, what do you like for board terms? What do you have? Advice? Two years? Three years? Should How many? How many years or how many terms should board members be allowed to continue on?

[00:24:00.64] spk_1:
Um, there’s there’s not, you know, one specific answer. I hate the lawyers. Answer. It depends. It does. But let me just say in a large number of cases, I like the 2 to 3 year term, both balancing a little bit of need for continuity and giving a fair expectation to a new board member of that. This is not just going to be a one year thing and you’re out. Um uh, and I like to have board terms to make sure that the board doesn’t become very insular and its thinking and in its diversity by keeping board members on perpetually until they’re ready to resign. It also makes it hard to ever remove a board member if people think that they have a right to serve on the board forever. So I kind of like board members not to be on board for, like maybe five or six years. Um, having said that, there are times

[00:24:02.67] spk_0:
when to not be on for five or six years

[00:24:04.99] spk_1:
to beyond that

[00:24:08.44] spk_0:
beyond. For five, like maybe two, 23 year terms, two year terms or 23 year terms of the most

[00:24:41.64] spk_1:
something. Something like that. Now, a lot of exceptions to that, if you have, if you had trouble building aboard and you have some great champions on the board. But those have been kind of the long term people who really know and really invested, and everybody else has been sort of lackluster. Um, I don’t think you should kick off your strongest board members, so you have to really think about that before you implement it. It is sort of an idealistic goal to have those term limits and, um, 2 to 3 year terms. But in other situations, I would say one size doesn’t fit. Also, take a look at your own board composition first before you make those type of decisions.

[00:25:19.94] spk_0:
What about in terms of socializing to the board, having social events for the board? Occasionally, Maybe it’s a dinner after a meeting. Um, I wouldn’t have cocktails before a meeting. But you could have cocktails after a meeting, you know, trying to get the board to get to know the members, to know each other outside the board. What else do you do? You go skiing, you go snowmobiling. You know, you’re a Fisher fisherman. You know things like that.

[00:25:26.34] spk_1:
Yeah, I love that idea. I’ve even had cocktails before boarding. So,

[00:25:31.63] spk_0:
uh, all right,

[00:26:10.84] spk_1:
but yes, um, for board members to trust each other and to be open to each other’s ideas and respect each other, the more you know each other, the more likelihood that that’s all going to happen and that you’re going to actually build the board culture rather than have people who don’t know each other who are trying to get out of the meeting, to watch a basketball game or be home with their family and sort of sit and say, This is my duty. For the next hour, I’m going to sit here, take notes and listen and try to do my job. But think of it just as a job. It’s going to be less productive. I think that if you come in and say I love these people that are kind of get to work with. And we’re trying to build something great so we can make change in the world or in our community. And so I really like coming to these events and getting a sense of it. Sometimes there’s, you know, those ice breaker things you know, for five or 10 minutes in front of a meeting that can be hit or miss and oftentimes a

[00:26:33.10] spk_0:
miss. How many people can you talk to in 10 minutes?

[00:26:35.46] spk_1:
Yeah, and that’s another reason why you shouldn’t have too big a board as well. If you have 50 people at a to our board meeting, how many people are going to get to

[00:26:51.84] spk_0:
talk, right? That’s yeah, So I know that I know your answer is there’s no hard and fast answer for this one. But since you just let into it, share your advice on on board size,

[00:28:13.54] spk_1:
Yes. So my maybe not so helpful advice is not too few and not too many, um, that if we dive down a little deeper, you need, um or you’d like to have as many board members as you can utilize to help you govern the organization and help the organization and the board do its best job. So if that number is eight, or if that number is 15, that’s, you know that may be your ideal board size. It’s more important to me to get the right people on the board, um, rather than the right number. But if you can, if you have less than five and you’re a mature organization, I start to worry that you’re gonna lack that diversity in many different perspectives. Um, and if you’ve got more than 20 I have a feeling that a lot of board members feel like their contributions are not being heard because they don’t have an opportunity to sort of verbally contribute, especially if there are few dominant board members at meetings and in a two hour meeting, even 20 people are going to have a chance to say how much about how many issues it will be very few. So to really think about that, and you want to encourage board members to attend every board meeting, not just sort of half of the board meetings or think that they can take a free ride because you’ve got enough people to do that job. I’ll just help on a committee. You don’t want them to feel that way. You want them to feel very invested.

[00:28:31.24] spk_0:
So you feel like an expectation is you attend every board meeting either physically or virtually.

[00:28:33.84] spk_1:
I think that’s the expectation. And if people are missing, you know, one out of 41 out of five meetings, one out of 10 meetings, you know that might be acceptable for special circumstances. But you don’t want it to be a habit. I think you want to aspire to have everybody attend all of them.

[00:28:58.64] spk_0:
Okay, Um, what do you What do you feel like talking about board wise that we haven’t talked about yet? Let’s not go to how to get rid of a board member yet that’s that’s toward the end. What’s your what’s on your mind around your best? Better board?

[00:30:44.94] spk_1:
Well, we talked about kind of the expectations of what the board should do, but they think each director’s gotta ask that question of themselves as well. And maybe that’s part of the board. Recruitment and orientation package is kind of a list of however many 10 things that board members should aspire to do themselves, uh, to be part of this board and attend all meetings. We talked about that, but what else should they do? They should review financials regularly, so if they’re getting a financial before each meeting, they should review them. They should know that they are expected to ask questions that might be at the board meeting or that might be before the board meeting. But if they’re getting information aboard package in advance, which they should get, um, about the matters that are going to be up for discussion at the board, they should know that they should review it first. And if they have any questions, they should share it with the group. Um, and that doesn’t happen enough, in my opinion, that there are these questions and everybody saves it for the board meeting, and then they run out of time to discuss all the issues that they want to. So just having it kind of on an email sort of mass email, the board package comes out on email, and people can ask questions about it so that everybody gets an advanced preview of what some of the issues are before you go into that board meeting and then start to discuss things a little bit more detail. Some of those things might need a little research to be answered to. The executive might have to talk to an accountant or a lawyer or someone else and say, Let’s find out what the answer is and you know that does away with that issue even before the meeting, if you can share that information. So that’s another thing to just think about.

[00:31:35.04] spk_0:
What about managing the board? Uh, some. Some larger organizations have a board liaison where that’s probably not most of our listeners with someone who’s devoted to the board. I think that’s more like university style, big university style. But there doesn’t have to be a lot of staff support for the board. I mean, not only the you mentioned getting the board packages to them at least a week. I’d say in advance, maybe a week or 10 days in advance, something like that. But it goes beyond that. Board members have questions. Have these questions that you’re suggesting they ask in advance of meetings? Um, committee work has to be supported. How do we How do we make sure that we’re giving the board members the support that they need.

[00:33:00.24] spk_1:
Yeah, and it’s a great balance. Is it? Well, it’s a great question, but it is a tough one to answer because of the balance that you have to think of. You want the board to be informed so that they can be of help to the organization. But you don’t want the board to put on so many demands upon the staff that they’re really hurting the staff’s ability to do the work of the organization, the programmatic work that’s needed. So there is a little bit of balance there. I know many staff members and executives hate kind of preparing the board for the board meeting because it may take so much work. Sometimes it’s because they’re trying to justify what they are doing to the board, because the board may come in with a little bit of a negative skew about, you know, prove to us that you’re doing good work of some kind. That may be the perception that the staff is getting. I don’t think any boards are overtly saying that, but I feel that staff can come into it a little bit defensively in preparation of board materials rather than this is an ally of ours. This should be the strongest ally that we have this board group. Let’s give them information and questions for them so that they can help us do our job better. Um, and that takes time. But how many staff are involved with the executive? Certainly is meeting with them. That probably goes without saying if there is a financial person there other than the executive, that person should probably have frequent contact.

[00:35:45.54] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take to the podcast. Pleasantries. They gotta go out. That’s what we start with. Plan giving accelerator that’s coming. The podcast. Pleasantries. Uh, I’m enjoying the nostalgia of sending these again. I’ve missed it. I guess I I ignored it for a while. My my mistake. I’m sorry about that. Pleasantries to you, our podcast listener. Well, you individually. But there’s more than just one of you out there. There’s over 13,000 of you out there. So, to the podcast, listeners pleasantries. You know, I’m grateful. I am. I’m glad you’re with us. I’m glad you’re learning that non profit radio helps you helps your organization open conversations, take action steps, open discussions with the board. Your CEO, your vice president, Whoever it is, you bring stuff too. I’m glad it helps you do all that. And I hope there’s the action steps to I’m sure there are. There is. I’m sure there are the action steps. I’m sure there are. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for being with me. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Each of you plan giving accelerator that is the online membership community that I created to help you get your plan giving program started and growing. It’s a membership that you join for a year, and I teach you month by month lesson by lesson, Step by step. Everything you need to get your planned giving program started and growing. If you’re not doing planned giving and you would like to be, is it on your to do list? Have you, like so many folks? Say to me, Had this on your mind for a couple of years. You can get it done. You can get it started to get the initial thing started, and that’s done and then the program continues. I mean, the program doesn’t finish after a year. You continue your playing giving program indefinitely, of course, but you’ll get plan giving off your to do list. You get the going done. Your started 2021. The next class starts April 1st, all the info on how to pick my brain and have me teach you planned giving starting up step by step. Is that planned? Giving accelerator dot com. Okay, that is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for build your best better board with Jean Takagi.

[00:36:41.93] spk_1:
I didn’t mean to downplay the role of somebody from programming coming in speaking to the board once in a while, I think I wanted to say that that was insufficient for the board to know what’s going on programmatically. But having people come in a little bit more regularly, or at least providing materials to the board more regularly about the program’s impact, you know, and that could be through stories as well. I’m kind of like in fundraising make the board engaged with what the organization is doing programmatically and invested in doing more to help the organization do better with its programs, either serve more people are doing in a better way. You want to create that connection so that the board rallies around you and actually helps you rather than just again just providing oversight and saying We want to make sure everything is lawful. Give us all this information to make, you know, make sure that we can do that. You want to do get more from your board.

[00:37:26.53] spk_0:
I like the idea of regular presentations at board meetings from from program staff. Maybe the 1st 15 minutes of a board meeting every time is from some different employee. Maybe maybe it’s not a unique pro, maybe not different programs every time. But I like the idea of devoting some board time each each meeting to to programs to what our work is, but but not being acquainted by the CEO. But having someone who’s on the ground doing the work answering, I think that would be a real fertile ground for questions to from the board and provides ongoing training.

[00:37:28.53] spk_1:
I think so, too, and maybe even somebody who is a beneficiary of the services

[00:37:32.89] spk_0:
beneficiary to yes

[00:37:51.23] spk_1:
to say Hey, you know you get a chance to speak to the board to because we want to know what you feel about our programs and our organization and how you’ve been treated. So, um, I think those things are good, and I I again think, tony, that will just energize aboard to want to do more if they feel more connected to what the organization is actually doing and not just reading about it and listening to the executive tell them about it.

[00:38:15.32] spk_0:
What about that important CEO board chair relationship that should be very collegial? It should be supportive. What what’s your advice around for? The CEO is probably mostly CEOs listening, although we do have board members listening. But probably we have more CEOs than we do board chairs. So what’s your advice there for them? Although

[00:39:07.82] spk_1:
I’ll say that probably a fair number of CEOs have actually acted in the capacity of a board chair as well and other organizations, so they may understand some of the roles from both sides. I think my advice is what you have just said, as well as to have this collegial relationship and develop one where there’s one of trust where the CEO is not afraid to go to the board and say, I’ve got some bad news. Um, I’m looking for some guidance on this. If the CEO is always about, um, my pay or my job security can be affected by telling bad news to the board chair. So I’m going to try to, uh,

[00:39:09.52] spk_0:
show hide it, make it sound, not as bad as it is not. Be completely honest, etcetera.

[00:39:26.32] spk_1:
Yeah, I think of what you know. For profit, boards of directors may say to their shareholders in public companies, Right, like you want to pose the best view of that organization as possible. I don’t think that’s a healthy relationship for nonprofit board to have its executive,

[00:39:37.42] spk_0:
and and that should be frequent communication to I mean, shouldn’t shouldn’t the CEO feel comfortable picking up the phone and seeking the advice of the board chair?

[00:40:20.31] spk_1:
I think so. And if it’s not the board chair, I I think it’s okay at times. So your board culture is going to have to allow for this, but for them to pick up the phone and talk to another board member, So I’m when I serve on the board. I’m sometimes the only lawyer on the board. I want the CEO to be able to talk to me. I’m not going to be their legal counsel, But I might have a point of view. Or I might spot an issue if they feel like, Hey, is this something we need to talk to our lawyer about? Maybe our board chair wouldn’t be able to answer that question. But maybe I would as a board member. So, yeah, I like the CEO of being able to reach out to multiple board members for for different issues. Yeah,

[00:40:48.21] spk_0:
all right. Should we should we talk about terminating board members the topic before before their time is, Do so Let’s say, you know, a three year term and they’ve been on for a year, and they’re obstreperous, lackluster, unkind. They don’t belong. Let’s just for whatever reason, they don’t belong.

[00:43:09.10] spk_1:
Sure. What do we do? Yeah, it’s a real tough one, right. So, um, sometimes you have to look at it holistically. So oftentimes I get a call and that situation will arise. But it will turn out that that board members also the biggest donor to the organization right now you’ve got to think a little more diplomatically and strategically about how to do this. Um um So again, not one size fits all But one method that some organizations have used has been to say, Let’s talk with this board member and try to find the best role for them in the organization and see if we can move them off the board but into this other role, whether it be advisory, um, or whether it be in an, uh in an honorary position for being, you know, uh, something emeritus. So give them a fancy title. Ask them to show up at fundraising events, um uh, or to to speak to two foundations when you go out with them to do a pitch, maybe that’s where their strength is. And maybe there’s enough there of their passion for the mission and for the organization and what it does. While they don’t have passion for doing the work of a director in a strategic and diplomatic way, they may still have passion for the mission of the organization. And let’s try to take advantage of that, um, and use it in a way where nobody will use sort of the Asian mentality of nobody loses face right, like so everybody gets to keep their dignity and look good. But let’s try to take advantage of not having that person be disruptive on the board anymore. And if that person isn’t giving you much of a contribution in any way, then once in a while removal is an unpleasant but sometimes necessary option. And boards may have to decide that again. Uh, they’re going to ask somebody where they’re actually going to vote to tell somebody, um, that their services as a director are no longer needed, Um, but that has to also be done diplomatically. You have to be careful of alleging reasons for doing that because that could get you involved in a defamation lawsuit from that person if they’re upset with it and litigious so carefully.

[00:43:20.20] spk_0:
So this should be something that’s in the bylaws, then removal of a board member. Yeah, you need to have a documented process.

[00:44:17.09] spk_1:
I think that’s right, tony. A lot of, um, boards have eliminated that from the bylaws because you see that as a negative. But then they would default to the code, right, and they’re not going to usually look up what the code says about removal. It has to be done in a certain way, and in some cases it can get a little bit complicated. If you have a voting membership structure like for certain charities, they might have members who actually elect their board members. It’s more common in trade associations and homeowners associations things like that. But some charities have voting members, and removal, then becomes a lot more complicated. But having it having the procedure in your bylaws at least gives you kind of like the encyclopedia. Look at how to do this properly without feeling like it’s going to be too hard. We can’t do it and just live with it.

[00:44:26.89] spk_0:
I’m not familiar with this model you just described because you and you said it’s some five oh one C threes have elected board members. So

[00:44:28.78] spk_1:
yeah,

[00:44:29.71] spk_0:
so it has. The board has voted members on and can only remove them,

[00:45:22.59] spk_1:
actually the opposite way. So members elect the board members, so the members are responsible for electing and potentially removing board members. So you might think of that more in terms of like a union or a professional association or homeowners association, where all the homeowners elect the board. If they don’t like the board, they’ll remove them and put somebody else on to that board. So some charities are also structured that way. And that was to sort of been seen as a more democratic process of ensuring that the board stays responsive to what the members think. The mission is supposed to be, um, for smaller organizations. I generally don’t recommend it because it’s more costly. It’s much more difficult to manage and administer. Um, but nevertheless, I would say about 5 to 10% of the charities that we run into small charities we run into are structured that way.

[00:45:32.49] spk_0:
Not ideal, though, but they’re trying to be democratic. And

[00:45:36.99] spk_1:
that’s right.

[00:46:19.48] spk_0:
Okay, I see. All right. Well, that Yeah, that conversation to to hope that opening that conversation with the director to be removed is is hard. Maybe maybe the maybe the board member themselves themselves, uh, maybe the person. Maybe they can’t find the right pronoun. Maybe that person isn’t happy in the role either. That’s a possibility. It could be. You know, you could sort of open the conversation with it. Seems like, you know, this isn’t as you were suggesting, and I’m kind of putting a few things together. It seems like this isn’t quite the right role for you. You don’t seem happy as a board member. Uh, you know, you could open the conversation that way in trying to find something else to offer

[00:46:43.88] spk_1:
them. I think that’s a great way often to frame that that situation. I actually wrote an article for the nonprofit Quarterly. I think called something like 10 Reasons Why a director made gracefully want to resign from their organization, um, board. And so, yeah, framing it from their perspective and what they’re not getting is probably a good way to start it.

[00:46:59.58] spk_0:
I thought of something else before we wrap up. What do you think about junior boards, you know, maybe have an advisory role? There’s sort of a training improving ground for future board members, whatever you call it, might. It might just be the advisory board or something. But what do you think of that? That having, uh, that in your organization,

[00:47:26.78] spk_1:
I think you’ve done well. It works. Um, really Well, it raises potential future board members and gives you an introduction to the organization. Rather than bringing somebody straight into the board. They have a chance to be part of whatever you want to call it an advisory committee or, uh, the junior board. I would be careful with the name, depending upon who you’re planning to put on it.

[00:47:30.99] spk_0:
So junior board is not so good. All right.

[00:47:33.37] spk_1:
Unless it’s for, you know, unless you’re putting minors on it for advisory positions. Okay. Okay.

[00:47:44.08] spk_0:
But advisory, an advisory board advisory committee. And and it gets to be seen as a stepping stone for some folks to the board membership.

[00:48:04.17] spk_1:
Yeah, and to offer thought leadership from different perspectives. Um, so I think that’s good. But if you’re trying to increase diversity through an advisory border, Junior. But I would say Be very careful to make it not look like it is of less importance. And that’s why these people were put on that.

[00:48:54.37] spk_0:
Oh, yeah, right. Right. So all your yes, all your all the folks of color and other underrepresented groups are on the advisory board. Yeah, that’s well, that’s a sham. Alright, That’s right. Exactly. That’s inhumane. Alright. Yeah, I’m surprised you thought of that, Gene. You’re well. You see the good and the bad. All right, you’ve It’s not that you thought of it. You’ve seen it. You’ve seen it. I guess it’s It’s out there somewhere. All right. Thank you, Jeanne. Outstanding. Outstanding advice. Jeanne Takagi, our legal contributor. You’ll find them at nonprofit law blog dot com. You can find him at Columbia University if you’re a member of their student body in, uh, what is it? The nonprofit nonprofit management program at Columbia?

[00:49:01.07] spk_1:
Yep.

[00:49:07.17] spk_0:
Okay, so you’ll find him there. You also find him at neo law group dot com and you’ll find him at G T A K at G Tech. Thank you very much, Gene.

[00:49:12.87] spk_1:
Thanks, tony. Been a pleasure.

[00:50:05.17] spk_0:
My pleasure. As always. Thanks. Next week, I’m asking you to trust me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for December 22, 2017: Recruiting Your Next CEO

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My Guest:

Dennis Miller: Recruiting Your Next CEO

“As a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer.” So starts the book, “A Guide To Recruiting Your Next CEO.” Whether you’re on a board or work with one, you need to know what’s what for this critical duty. Author Dennis Miller walks us through.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of cattle lep c if you tried to hypnotize me into the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your next ceo as a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be the hyre your chief executive officer. So starts the book a guide to recruiting your next ceo, whether you’re on a board or work with one, you need to know what’s what for this critical board duty author dennis miller returns to walk us through on twenty state too next month’s non-profit radio we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant and by wagner. Sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers wittner, cpas, dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com tell us turning payment processing into your passive revenue stream tony dot m a slash tony tell us i’m glad that i can welcome dennis miller back then a c miller he’s, a strategic leadership coach and executive search consultant with more than thirty five years experience working with non-profit board leadership and chief executives across the country. He’s, managing director of the non-profit search group, an executive recruiting firm. His latest book, his fifth, is a guide to recruiting your next ceo. The executive search handbook for non-profit boards you’ll find dennis and his book at dennis c miller dot com he’s at dennis c miller and i’m very glad that his book brings him back to non-profit radio. Welcome back, dennis c miller happy to be back, tony way happy well happened years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you what does the sea foreign dennis, c miller, dot com and charles that’s my father’s name. So, so many dennis mellows and grammar school in high school, we put my seeing and i’m very proud to be a similar dennis charles. All right, you don’t mind if i don’t call you tennessee miller the whole hour, though, i just call me yet that it’s anything you’re like. Okay, now. Dennis overviewing i just have to be it has to be anymore denigrating the dentist, then it’s fine, now you’re by phone, you’re in, you’re in los angeles, is that right? Yeah, i’m actually in the los angeles area of isn’t that it’s a business appear this week and now we’re spending time. My wife and i went our two sons on their families and grandson out here and los angeles and heading up to santa monica santa monica pier, right after the show. So good. All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want take off now, we can just back the whole thing. Did you do you need to go public transportation is going to leave in five minutes or something or you’re okay. You’re okay for the hour. Okay. Now remember the last time you were here? You almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. Your your, um your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You needed a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to los angeles. And this way you can call him by phone. Well, okay, you don’t. Worry about running running to the studio. Okay, okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what i was saying? I really have no salmon. Naralo were had a regular. You may have. No, you did. You had a high. You’re definitely out of my heart because your face was red. All right, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome? Well, think about it that there’s probably over a million more more than a million non-profits around the country and with the number of people that are just paid to retire over the next five plus years on any research, uh, just staggering sometimes close a seventy five percent. The ah the vast majority of people went into the non public sector and leadership positions where baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the communion. So there’s, a lot of retirement going on, and the the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next ceo. And then on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing, so it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit the next ceo that’s why i wrote the book ok, seventy five percent turnover in the next ten years we’re going to have i’m probably less i mean, it’s, it’s quite a bit, if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, where you know it’s now two thousand, you know, seventeen and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needed get latto leadership so it’s going to be required for this sector. Now, one of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hyre a such consultant now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book you’re biased, but, you know, can you weigh the pros and cons for us? You know, so i’m biased certainly wasn’t if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, i think the book will help them with that for sure you want to go in alone is this year. You have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s going to be needed for the board members, too? Not only identify the profile of the next candidate, but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved that lay out those except in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures that they’re going to be paying and most trees probably in area someplace between twenty to thirty five percent are cases. Twenty five that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet. So you want to have an expertise this like anything else? If he needed a lawyer of financial account, you’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own and the other aspect, tony, uh, for people who want to go about on their own is by just posting sort of adds a social media. Whatever you going toe on ly get the people that are looking for a job. And you know no either how good they are. However performing they are. Well, if they’re happy, a search from is going to recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What i have that those percentages thatyou quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is that yes. So someone makes ah a position whether the ceo our c f o r development amglobal to say the position i was one hundred thousand dollars. You know, the average three is going to be, you know, twenty five thousand dollars. But if this day five years it’s five thousand dollars a year which comes out to be about a hundred dollars a week or twenty hours of any and, you know the thing about it’s, probably the smartest investments that aboard would want to make. Okay, noah particularly because the right person and they stay for a period of time. It it’s okay. And i guess the main advantage of going on your own is your saving that fee. Well, you saving the fee, but you also, you know, better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna have that so that you poisoned cons here, but most most really good organizations will use the search from for certain keys positions. Okay, okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before ah, first break, dennis so let’s, just identify that this ceo change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so, this could be an opportunity, a great opportunity. Well, that’s, how you look at him and i were doing a search right now when we’ve got the finalists been seen by the search committee and in beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm. And, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from, you know, not a crisis, too. This is a phenomenal opportunity, too. I just take it, get a new leader. But i have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while. Or fairly new it’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So it if the glass is half full it’s i look at it is very exciting times one organization, most clients feel the same way, all right? And we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this right now. Time to take a break pursuant. Proven strategies for stewardship. That is their oh so timely webinar replay for you stewardship strategies, because lots of people giving right this quarter this month how do you keep them giving year after year after year? You know how costly it is to lose donors and replace them. We know nationwide that donor attrition is around seventy five percent annually. Sad that’s ah that’s supposed to be ah, supposed to be our president tweeting sad. But if you have to tell the judge, you have to tell what it is then it doesn’t work. Ah, but but maybe it did work. I’m not there to listen to you laugh. So maybe it worked out fine, so i didn’t need to. Rachel and kathy are going to give you examples of top thank you’s. They talk about automation without sacrificing personalization. They have free templates for you to use. And if you don’t mind, i would like to throw in that the value. Of the personal touch of handwritten notes for your special donors, all proven stewardship strategies. You’ll find that webinar at tony dahna em, a slash pursuant capital p now, back to dennis miller and his book, recruiting, ah, guide to recruiting your next ceo and dennis similar so let’s, talk about that. That possibility for assessment. You, uh, you say that you might. I considered doing strategic planning. I guess if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next ceo. Yeah, well, the you know, the question always is, you know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do your hyre our ceo or d’you hyre our chief development officer before you have a plan and and kind of it’s up it’s up to the client, the organization, but give you a couple examples, whites sort of better toe at least an idea of where you want to go and what you want to achieve. So let’s say, uh, you want it, you go out and hyre ceo hoping that day will build your plan and let some party of plan is to be more involved in philanthropy maur involved in cultivating. So seeing donors? What if that seo hee just hyre doesn’t have that experience will now you’re stuck. So what if your needs is to grow? You’re bored and you, seo yi sa doesn’t have that so one of the things that i recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan, but certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision where you had it, where you want to head, what some of the big strategic goals you have, um, what things that you need to get done, and then obviously it’s much easier to in to identify that the characteristics on the qualities and experience of the ceo. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for your organization. So that’s, why it’s important to take a look at kind of way you want to go before you just went on board? You say that if you’re not going to do a full, full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are? Yeah, i mean, i think there are some people that, you know don’t do oppcoll bonem metoo plan, i think that you could do that, but i think more importantly, uh, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life, uh, cycle as an organization and as a board um, and then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of where you’re at that helped us for magically beginning the onboarding plus is what your next ceo? So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind, so i do think that you wanna have, and i point this out in the book, you want to have a sense of your strategic vision, we’re heading and pick up some of the key goals you’re having here. So when you’re interviewing kayman thatyou want, make sure they’re lined with those gold here and it makes a much smoother transition, some of the goals you you lay out besides mission envision our fund-raising and development, you know what you want do around that you’re bored ceo relationship, your programs and services and of course, you know, the book explains what goes into detail on each of those, but, um, yeah, i would have a couple of it, certainly. You know, your organizational capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have ah plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you border. You’re building the right board. Are you branding the organization and communicating with the impact you’re having is important things today. So there’s a lot of ah, strategic goals, that one. Should be having with this process and you want to get a sort of buy-in from your board and have the new ceo committed help temple with this upleaf and okay, so this new ceo is gonna have need to have some skills on dh you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing ceo are. We want to be thinking beyond that, i mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is going to do is help you look forward, not current, you know, you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current ceo’s talents, but you want to build on those for the future and you identify a whole bunch of, you know, potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit, relationship builder, etcetera. But you want to be going beyond the current? Yeah, i mean, it’s easy question when you have someone, you know, you know what kind of kind of see what you’re looking for? And then the person who has been in the job, you know, for the past ten, fifty years, your name is surely people we’d like someone like charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that you previously eoe had maybe sell it, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that i have in the book, in another books, in my work i do, tony is the idea of today’s competencies for ah, executive leadership in on public sector, dramatically different than they were five, ten years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past. You know, aboard we’ll look for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relation of in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out get a grant. Though their skills are still important today, they look for more than just skills. But competition traits such as they want a visionary thinker today, when the past the ceo or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for ceos to create their own vision cream organization. I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of grey. Division number two certainly. People want the idea of relationship will the building relationships outside inside the organization? Uh, someone who’s, a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is in partnership that you need not just managed him when you got so is the whole siri’s of conferences that identifying the book, including, you know, today being a collaborate it’s, not about how big of a budget you have in control it’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass out there for ceos and executive represented, but i use the term song with ceo. Exactly. Director? Yeah. That’s a fair that’s. Fair fares. Similarities. Of course. I did have a guest years ago. Eugene fram. He was a professor that i think he was a university of rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the ceo. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and ceo. That chief executive makes it less likely. Now it doesn’t make no guarantee, but less likely that board members will get involved in the nitty gritty the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging ceo versus an executive director? I don’t. Do you have any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one. Over the other day, i d’oh you know, tony it’s a point you’re raises a really good one. And i do highly in the book of my work. But i do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer. Um, the more contemporary title is bored shiver support president what you kind the past is, um, it may just be words, but i think they have a lot of connotations. They do hide them so i’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top late personal pipe paid for sex should be the president ceo. And i think that was provoc pulawski right there when you’re out there with donorsearch oh, it’s more than just an executive director overseen the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen? I do. I do before the words ceo cubine taking andi also executive director. I mean that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non-profit terms way wanted to think that running like businesses run. This thing like a business happens. To be a nonprofit corporation. But don’t tell this to run like a business on my other interviews with you came up the term, you know, non-profit attacks that business plan, i think it’s important that today’s title be ceo. I just really think that important title they have let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing. Well, clearly, i think the this you know that in terms of size of dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on such absolute who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experienced with search maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good that’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of, you know, twelve to fifteen people, you may one of the search committee of maybe five, you know, maybe seven maximum, but i’ve seen larger or smaller. Um, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two, uh, be tremendous amount. Of time commitment so the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be in involvement here in some time, and then obviously, the key part of that will be who will be your chair, the search committee, in some cases it’s, a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, a lot of people ask me all the time. Would it be ok, though? Has the form of a former board chair? A starita search for money and i would say maybe i would say maybe on ly, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for the future and not somebody think of something because they won’t know like what they’re looking for, yeah, this’s committee’s got to be a forward approaching organization, afford protect committee so i think that’s kind of that that’s something to think that i would be looking for a nose of membership. What about an employee putting one one employee on the committee? I don’t think that’s a good idea, actually, i think it’s a bad idea to come out writer bae and say not well, give example. Okay, uh, i’ve had people wondering to put, you know, uh, you know, the current ceo on the search committee, and the answer is no, that law office of the current ceo, maybe and help in the search committee and the consultant or either inside or outside of the search committee helped develop aspects of the position provoc what will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next ceo? But the board hires and fires a ceo um it’s also very uncomfortable before a current ceo to be on the search committee. I had a case where it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that i helped with succession planning in they had internal candidate for the position. And when the search committee, as this person, what changes would you make she’s very awkward to be talking about the change you want to make with theo? Of course, right. So i have. But now, those times when you get there, some people have their v p of hr on the search committee if they need it lays on. But remember, people it’s not a good idea. Has staff it’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his boardmember dahna okay, predominately. And then you said maybe a volunteer. I love you. He needs expertise. I mean, if you know if you’re going to not have a search committee and may sometimes people can hyre a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But i think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that type of thing so you can build it up with the great. Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is going to be maintained, right? You want a crucial because on i make it clear to all my such you could be. You could be sued for. Ah, um, you could be potentially have a lot of liability for exposing that. There is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way. You know, tony is it’s been interviewing for me and and before you know it, tony’s, you know, employer finds out, you know, feels like this oil is the prom. So you have to protect confidentially, it’s something that i have to establish the trust of my chance coming in, derek, they’re they’re adamant, and it’s just goes with the same goes with the business, i have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a job. Yeah, and this goes part me, tio, some of the time commitment, you know, if if there isn’t a, uh, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is going to be after hours, people are going to be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six p m yeah, after the day i’ve had, you know, i mean, our business is growing tremendously, what’s what’s going on, but, you know, when people say yeah, you know, maybe i’ll do it myself, but listen, if you can, if you know it’s up to you but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what the third, if you want up with the outreach to potential candidates is very time consuming if you’re going to delegate that members of the search committee a wall so, you know, professionals are working or even retired it’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people, it’s a lot of time of all the narrow and candidates down and doing the reference, checking it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in a process, not just putting it out there and then, you know, interview case it’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity that’s really important, which is when i was just going to point out that you say some things that caught my eye was very, very interesting i hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation. So our role teo, be selling the applicants on the organization not just to be not just to be a neutral a neutral committee, but be advocates for the auriga yeah, i mean, the candies are going to come in, they’re gonna come in prepared and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, jeez, i thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best? Thing since sliced bread. Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need candy it’s, goingto, besides what the search consultant is going to be telling them about the organization recruiting for as a search committee, i remember that you want to be portraying avery plaza of image. You want to be sort of extending your hand, you want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome and warm, even if you’re not going to be selected them. And you noted, under process, you want to believe what a very positive feeling for donorsearch that’s, a major altum search committee acid. All right, interesting let’s, move, teo, resume screening. You’ve got you’ve got a ton of tips, you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of, but you’ve got you’ve got a lot of tips to share, share a couple of resume screen tips. Now we’re at that stage that these things were coming in. Just repeat that, tony. I’m sorry about a lot of people coming in. Resume resumes. A lot of resumes coming out sametz share share a couple of resume screening tips. Oh, couple things one of you want to look for clary right off the bat. Eyes cloudy. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get ahold of you? You don’t always have to have your home accuracy stays, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think i look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where where’s your career, ben and a couple of tips. You look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly that that’s a signal textile, red flag, red flag and it were bad thing. But it should be there. The other thing that, uh, those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences. But you never get a sense of where they performed that. So two things on a resume. Both. For people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for position or respond to a search from is clary, is the resume clear of what i’ve accomplished? Is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have? And i think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that really yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise children absolutely was a caregiver was a caregiver for pareles that was concerned about a gap, and i said, just tell me you have a phd in parenthood. I mean, i’d be proud to be apparent way we don’t have parents, we don’t, you know, keep going, so i think it’s a totally appropriate but be honest with what you don’t want to do, it’s, not the cover things up here, and so then, you know, present yourself in a positive tone, but certainly be honest, if you took a couple of years out or timeout to raise children to be proud of it, and so you did, but these skills and bring back the table and begin the work force, i think it’s implying with that, let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off when you see people with email addresses that are hotmail or a o l does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology? No, i don’t, you know, not any detail. Why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business emails and their personal emails, and so they don’t want ah search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into there. Professional at work email like, yeah, no, i get that. I’m okay with the email accounts. It’s, when i see you know, dennis at, you know, big love of dot com i have eyes that see you. I’m gonna try that one. Yeah, okay, but wait. Yeah. And then when the e mails that are unprofessional, like baby cakes, you know, but yeah, i don’t want to be the case. That field. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right, i think it’s okay does to protect your you know, your private from work, i think that’s. All right, but let me ask you, but but my point was if it’s an added you know, sort of an out of date domain like jool or hotmail or yeah, who you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology it’s possible? I know nothing about that. If that you know, if you have an out of the email address and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address on minutes at a oh, well, i mean, i’m fine with that. I’m fine with that. All right. As long as not baby cakes today. Well, all right. Way to take a break. Regular cps. I got a testimonial for you, quote. I was new at my position when i began working with wagner cpas. My confidence has grown knowing that i can rely on the professionals of wagner to answer any questions and make recommendations that will ensure the success of our non-profit. And you see, i always say they go beyond the numbers. This’s the truth. It comes out right here in the testimonials, we were given sound advice enabling us to increase investment income while at the same time protecting assets. Tony. Inserts a question. Does your audit firm do that for you? Recommending investment investment alternatives for you? I trust and respect our audit team and look forward to their annual visit end quote, how many do you look? I’m dying to know. Do you look forward? Your annual audit that’s probably more like dreading your annual audience, but somebody from this midsize religious organization in the midwest looks forward to their annual audit. You can to check out wagner, regular cpas dot com apolo software you’re non-profit but you used accounting software made for business stop wasting your time using business accounting software for your books like quickbooks turbo cash asap microsoft they’re not made for you. They don’t do fund accounting for you. They’re built for businesses apple owes accounting is designed for non-profits it’s in the dna for tired for pete’s sake it’s in a dna easy, affordable and you need thio use to check out the pricing. By the way, it is quite reasonable non-profit accounting for you, they’re at non-profit wizard dot com now time for tony steak too. Next month on non-profit radio you’re twenty eighteen planning if you want free business coaching in twenty eighteen we’ll have a guest from score he’ll be telling you all about it. You’re online giving plan for twenty eighteen joe garrick, the fund-raising authority will be with me. Where’s, the new tax law mean for your overall twenty eighteen fund-raising plan. Jean takagi is going to parse it out for us. How about in twenty eighteen? You get free software and consulting from oracle net suite. The vp of their social impact team will be on plus maria and reassemble course. You know her aimee semple board. You know her with their twenty eighteen plans. It’s all in january. Or you need to do is listen. And that lovely is listener is tony steak too? And doesn’t that sound like live listener? Love is coming up. Indeed. You were right would reach new jersey. Woodbridge, i want you to identify yourself. I demand it. Otherwise you have to stop listening. I want to know who this season. Woodbridge, new jersey. So loyal! Identify yourself! Use the hashtag non-profit radio on twitter, email me tonia tonia martignetti dot com i wanna know who you are. Tampa, florida, new york, new york multiple thank you for that live listeners love to all these places port murray in new jersey honolulu, hawaii killing worth connecticut live. Listen, love going out there, the honolulu i don’t think we’ve had certainly not recently, i don’t know if you’ve had a little before live love going out there all those places. How about in china, guangzhou, lee, how and other in china that we cannot see? That’s interesting. Guangzhou we can see other cities we cannot see. But now to everyone in china, united kingdom, of course live lesser love to you tokyo tokyo was with us. Konichiwa, germany is with us. Guten tag germany on germany mast and also castle kassell, germany, putin dog to everyone in germany listening and also in japan toko ri zala, konnichi wa to took a result. How about those podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand of you, the vast majority of our audience that’s where you’re listening and pleasantries go to you. Thank you, podcast listeners for being with us and i am and fm affiliate listeners throughout the stations throughout the station’s well throughout the stations throughout the world yeah, throughout the country anyway. Throughout the stations throughout the country affections, affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners in those stations throughout the states throughout the country, affections to you. Dennis miller’s with us, you know him, we’re talking about his book, a guide to recruiting your next ceo, you know, we can we can cover the whole book, so just get the thing we’re going to say, you know, it’s, a dentist, see miller dot com that’s where you’ll find dennis in this book just get the damn thing, it’s just that i don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right. Anyway, denis let’s, continue our our joint through, um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when they really don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things we’re looking for? They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability? Absolutely. I mean, the tv process. Once we screen people in terms of resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone into the process and we can get a better sense of with they are as a potential candidate, we may explain a final car. Weather at one of salary package so without wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on the team builders over there? You know, ah, they collaborators of the communicators and then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results? And i think those two things is what kind of, you know, separates the people who get to positions and those that don’t hear i we advised certainly the search committee on, you know, the question should be focused on limited tony to, you know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal, what things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game antionette glamarys also there too, things that are a crucial now one of things that you may ask me, i’ll just what answer ahead of time we have and your listeners can get their contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non-profit search dot com. We provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. Ah, what a total score fifty. And whether it’s on leadership, communications, street, strategic planning, board, relationships, etcetera. So when people of actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got forty eight people, suppose, you know, going in the search committee members can evaluate for people. And i have this matrix a kind of sense of where, you know, people come out scores and usually it’s a good tool that have for them. You have a lot of resources at the non-profits search dot com. So you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s, get into some details here. Now is the whole committee meeting with every every candidate. Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then i don’t think that doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets or going to judge people differently. Yeah, well, here’s what we do, um and, um the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates now in a case we just have here. Because it’s got multiple locations. There are actually eight people on, uh, a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which weiss but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meets somebody. Candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee. He’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of zoho so every every candidate should be seen by every person on the search committee. Absolutely. You you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit. You know, you don’t want to be asking. Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions. Yeah. You you don’t want to say, you know, you want to you want to engage him in conversation and they want to get you in a conversation two and so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current? Position on your most recent position. What was the you know, your biggest achievement? Hey, is an issue for us. How would you deal with it? You stay away from the yes and no questions. And we have, you know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here, you know, question to be asking, but yeah, not open it. Not not. Yes or no. Open ended questions. Engagement of conversation is the best of them. Okay, let’s say, we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s, our next step in the committee. Well, what you want to do is the one i have everybody’s gonna score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring. So you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is i have a conversation with this chair of the search committee. And then, uh, i will meet with the search committee. One of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee depending where the searches on what it’s for and then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates is one person they like, and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s. Two final plans. They’re not sure. So that there’s a process here. The process here is obviously too, uh, what? The other candidates know that they did well and they thank him before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience. That’s mohr meets the needs of my client. Ah, we hope to see him again the future and then focus in on, you know, having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making, making a final offered and employment contract employment agreement right now in this scoring, obviously somewhere going to score highest and high esten hyre than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, you know, even the highest scoring one or two, they’re just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like i said, every in a group of five somebody’s going to score the highest but but even that highest one, they just don’t feel right. You know, how do we we feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process. Well, have expressed happened. You know, only once in my recent experience, where in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and, you know, as you know, the millions and millions of people that serve our non-profit board throughout this country and in other countries and canada, you know, our bright, committed people they gotta see if you get a feel for you know who you think would fit in here. So usually, you know, the scores will help you because it gives us feedback. But usually you get a kind of a feeling you would be the best person for that. If there’s a situation, um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates. I absolutely would highly recommend that he go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. Uh, we started with believing out of pool of eighteen candidates, uh, middle down, teo wither down to eleven that was down to five and five people came in, and so with the entire team and that team in there of identified, you know, to people and long behold some discussion and some some time issues and then people not sure what decision to make and there was some inexperience on the team making the decision and they kind of planted and they just, uh, well, i’m not sure i’m ready to pull the trigger, so we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again, and usually you don’t get the great candidates again, and we did, and it worked out so it’s for some reason, you don’t feel it. I dont just say, well, because is a high score because you’re going to live with this person quarter what use with this not happen, tony, you, um you know, the search is doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate, but if a some reasons you feel that, you know, this is i just don’t feel it for this person is going to fit in here. Then don’t just pick someone because of scored the scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate? Is this a stage where we should be calling references now? We’ve we’ve narrowed it down to our top two or so, yeah, so what way? Well, a cz we get the final can’t wait do ask for a reference, but here’s, what we do, we don’t ask them, they could tell us who they’re going to use the reference we are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking for example, and a ceo case we know they can’t talk about the company, we’d like the house, then talk. We’d like to talk to someone who is a boardmember maybe a boardmember another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them, so, uh, we don’t always talkto the references i had a time, because if you’ve got, you know, four final candidates we spent about our time it’s that wee if you’re not going to be chosen, why go? Through the house full of asking people speaking the reference. But with your various final candidate, we actually do a thorough construct. And i have a little bit of a funny story that that you listen, um, you may enjoy just quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when i did my first search believing not thirty years ago. And i was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people. And there was a man, a woman. And i remember the, uh the man had sort of mohr experience, but the young woman has seemed like much more potential. Anyway, for some reason, the man had given me a list of ten references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me ten references, and i call it the first six references. Iss man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru by the time i got seven. Eight. I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time i got the nine and ten people were asking me, you know, why did you what did this guy even you? Give me a reference, i recommend anything, so the moral stories you want to keep, you know, kind of dig in here and it’s, certainly you have a right as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we do, um, and same time protecting confidential alley, but certainly, you know, we need to do with our research on them and in addition to references, we obviously do a check on educational credentials, and then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not teo regarding they want pursue, uh, feeling criminal background check will and credit credit risk of credit reports. It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of what was thirty years ago. We didn’t have work, but have we have word we’re going? We’re using them word perfect where you had toe right down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use like the last four we’re we’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we got to take a break, tell us credit card and payment processing. They have a video. Check out the video at tony dahna slash tony tello’s. It explains what the process of businesses switching to tell us is and how you the non-profit that refers them will get fifty percent of the revenue that tello’s urns that’s passive revenue for you your organization. Each month it talks about their one hundred percent satisfaction rate. They have a price match guarantee, but that’s in the video, but for non-profit radio listeners, you get way beyond a mere price match. If if tell us, can’t help, you’re the first referred business is by saving the money, not just matching but saving. Then you get that two hundred fifty dollars, that you’ve heard me talk about, so worth it for you very likely tell us we’ll be able to save the money, but just in case not you’re protected and so is the business. Really, because it’s still still then is helping you. In the video covers, free switching to tell us they have a ninety day easy out but tell us has a hundred percent satisfaction rate, so they’re not gonna need not gonna need the easy out ninety days. That means there and it’s free, but they’re not going to eat it, but it is there, but they’re not gonna need it. Think about the businesses that make sense for you to refer and check out the video at tony dot m a slash tony tell us now, back to dennis miller and his book, a guide to recruiting next ceo let’s continue our joint ajanta dennis okay, so we’ve checked references, references and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours and what their meeting some of the staff now too, and maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our services no, what we worked a man don’t do that metoo staff until they are having a place where we don’t really know sexuality you don’t. You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a ceo level. Uh, they have to pick the ceo if it’s another level? Certainly if it’s achieve opening office of chief financial officer it’s totally appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them. The finer who’s a better vet culture that’s line. Okay, but on a ceo though you are make it clear that the board is making the decision and i would not have staff involved on interviewing until all right. So who are they meeting that in thiss day when they’re going to visit the visit the site? Well, so many have gone to the search committee. Obviously, there is no one else to meet except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the ceo, which is what? We are way wrong that once a search committee has made decision before on offers made it’s what the search committee wants to do doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wantto search committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board and in many cases, and i will advise us is have that final ceo or in the case where this too close candidates committed meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants don’t waste the time of having to feel you have to bring a second one and you give it someone hope when is when they’re not probably going to be selected but i have an interesting story, tony, that you listen. May one here, uh, about a year ago we did a search for a ceo and the search committee had him ranked wanted to have this ah, woman rank one in a guy number two. And i had agreed with that recommendation thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate and some things came up in discussions. Then i think at the end of day they made the right decision. So don’t forget the board has a final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee xero recommended candidates, but do not hire a ceo from a search committee on ly they must meet the entire board. Have you ever heard of co ceos? Yeah, i have and i found it never. Well, couple times it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions, so both people take on the role of co ceo won, they have responsibility for maybe certain geography one than another o once focus more on one thing before not tow have it. I think coz ceos is like koh board chairs. It doesn’t make a feeling that anybody’s really in charge. Um, i’m working with an organization right now out in california because we do certainly national searches as well as in canada and, you know, there’s a transition going on and is this it the heart organization? It’s important to know who’s in charge? So if it has to happen and you’re particularly the merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally it sooner than later. It’s only a transition. You can’t have a co ceo doesn’t work. I’ve seen coach, chief development officer and it doesn’t work either. I mean, i think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion. Okay, way explored co ceos with jean takagi, so if anyone wants teo, get more on that. That was the main nineteenth twenty seventeen show with jean ok, alright, we, uh we it’s time to negotiate an offer we were ah, we’ve selected our top one you like guards, guidestar they have i don’t know if you mentioned i know them. Guide star has a has a good salary guide comes out every year. So it’s it’s current but you have other studies that you like? Yeah, a couple of things we have a good sense of what the marketplaces like different geography, maybe waken use guide star and i i like the organization well, but here’s the palm and it’s not guide, says the bomb is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest, complicated employees? It’s probably two years old, even if it says two thousand sixteen and you’re in seventeen, it may have been, you know well, about a june of two thousand fifteen, so i don’t rely upon that nestle as a guide for making offer. I know what the organization is looking to pay. I know what what the sally is. People that are looking and then we i advise uh, i’m involved in every ceo, so i advise my client is what i think it’s going to take to get the person i’ve seen clients do salary surveys using geiser and other things that committee from other compensations raised there’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that, you don’t know, uh, what the performance of the organization has been you don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what, how well they’ve done with fund-raising, you know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So on one of the advantages of a search for meditation now based upon the work they’re doing what what the rate is to attract some money and that’s kind of what we do. Okay, let’s, spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you know, you just got it by the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book, but i want to spend last couple minutes, just about two minutes or so on on onboarding this’s a board responsive board responsibility. Well, it’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to ceos, i mean half of them have never been on border. So what does? What does he mean by sort of onboarding candidate? Well, uh, our onboarding onboarding if you don’t get onboarding you get hired and then you start and then you go geez, i don’t know this is the way itwas, you know, you’re not supported in your new job. So dahna whatyou onboarding were first to the idea of preparing a ceo to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components of the new role and or to the board here, really very important that i be some type of onboarding process um, so as example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about what onboarding here is, um, let’s be clear. So both the board and the ceo and again, you could say the same thing about a ceo or cfo. What she development altum same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly that’s gonna come up during entry puss, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair want to communicate to the ceo? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other friday did they want emails or not emails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the ceo to accomplish in the first thirty days or sixty days, or maybe one hundred eighty days? Uh, what the cultural issues or financial is that the organization is facing, um, what senior members of the team may have some performances the watch out for who had the key stakeholders outside the organization like donors of all tears that you want to see how to make sure that building wishes, perhaps maybe with a local congress person or a member of the senate assembly here. Dennis, we’ve got to leave it there. There’s too much. All right, keep a melissa. Thank you, tony, for this. I appreciate you and all your happy holiday season and the great thank you so much, dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guide to recruiting your next ceo. You’ll find it at dennis c miller dot com and you’ll find him at dennis c miller next week. Happy new year. There is no live show affiliate listeners. You are covered. Of course we’re going to replay zombie. Loyalists. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant weinger sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com appaloosa accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, slam sam, sam the slam liebowitz is the line producer show social media is by susan chavez, and this very cool music is by scott stein of brooklyn’s. Thank you for that information, scotty with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 15, 2017: Run Like A Biz & Program Your Board

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I need a pancreas. Ole affected me for last week’s pancreas volodya, sis, if you hard into me with the idea that you missed today’s show, run like a biz hillary shaefer brought her twelve years on wall street to the jefferson awards foundation, where she is executive director. She shares her ideas from building core infrastructure to employee policies that originally aired september eighteenth, twenty fifteen and programmed your board. Your board probably recognizes its fiduciary responsibilities, but does it know it’s rolling overseeing programs? Jean takagi is our legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo that also aired september eighteenth twenty fifteen tony’s take two five minute planned e-giving marketing responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com and by wagner cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit apple of accounting software designed for non-profits they’re at non-profit wizard dot com and we’d be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com here’s hillary schaefer run like a biz. I’m glad to welcome to the studio hillary schaefer. Prior to joining the jefferson awards foundation as executive director, she worked as the head of us institutional equity sales in new york. For citigroup, she was one of the highest ranking women in the equity business in the late nineties, she was the executive director of economic security two thousand fighting to save and remodel social security. The foundation is at jefferson awards dot org’s and she’s at beard hillary on twitter welcome hillary schaeffer. Thank you very much. Glad you’re in the studio. Thanks to be here. Eight and a half months pregnant. Eight and a half months pregnant. We got you at the right time. What what’s behind this twitter id beard? Hillary it’s. My maiden name is beard. Okay, until re beard was taken, i presume and hillary beard is probably taking swiped by some. I had that done on youtube. Some joker i hope he was named tony martignetti stole the channel name tony martignetti and i have you riel tony martignetti but he doesn’t use it. So it’s ah, people don’t have trouble finding me? Not that anyone’s looking, but if they were looking, they wouldn’t have trouble finding me on youtube. Um, tell me about wall street what’s it what’s it like making a living equity say institutional equity sales what’s it like, what does that mean, that’s that place, like, actually, frankly, loved it. I did it for twelve years. I went into wall street thinking i would do it for two. Yeah, we’re really, really fell in love for long enough to stay for twelve instruction equity sales is basically where you manage the relationships for the largest institutional investors who invest in stocks. Okay, so on behalf of citigroup, so on you’re like, on account, uh, liaison to big companies buying stocks. Sort of. Yes, i minimize their eyes like so egregiously. Okay, clearly egregiously. So, what do you how do you how do you keep big institutional buyers happy? What you have to do, too, with more of their blackness is making money, right? So investing in stocks that go up and shorting stocks that go down. And so ah, lot of the business of the equity business of citigroup is to provide really good insights and ideas and research into the companies that they care about and delivering that content into your clients in a way which is consumable. Smart fits with their investment style. It helps them make money is really the core of what you do. Okay, but then there are all of these other services that citigroup offers and help clients run their money from financing stocks. Teo, all of the things that go around the core of running that business, okay, banking and credit relationships, things like that, things like that. Okay? And so core of that business is sort of managing that entire relationship to make sure they get the resource is that they need in orderto successfully run the business and a transition to non-profit work. What? What occasioned that, frankly, hurricane sandy, i had left wall street. I have two little kids already at home. And i decided that i wanted teo figure out what i wanted to do next. I had no idea what that was. Actually, frankly thought it would be in the finance world. Yeah, and hurricane sandy hit new york. And i was sitting in my living room working on a business plan for a finance business okay, and i just got really passionate about the idea that there were children who had gone to bed safe and sound the night before that woke up with no signs of food or shelter or warmth, their security. And so i went to work from my living room to create programs that generated millions of more meals, hundreds of thousands of blankets and warm winter coats for families all over the tri state area and my husband on dh, the executive director of robin hood both basically sat me down and said, please don’t go back to finance the passion that you feel around helping people is so significant. Do something else. Stay in the non-profit so you gave away your entrepreneurial dream, the plan you’re working on, you’re going to start your own business. I did put that aside, although running a non-profit is inherently credibly entrepreneur. Okay, if it’s done right, i think that’s done right. All right, all right, tell us a little about the jefferson awards and the and the foundation. Sure. So we we basically power public service. We’ve been around since nineteen seventy two started by jackie kennedy. Senator robert taft. Junior and my father, sam beard and the original idea was create a nobel prize for public service in america. Celebrate the very best of the country. You celebration to not only say thank you to people do amazing things, but also as a force multiplier to inspire others to do something good. We then translated into programs that accelerate and amplify service for people of every age. So, starting about ten years ago, we became one of the largest creators of public service in the country through training mechanisms and programs that engage individuals again of all ages to do service ranging from the donation of a single book from a child to a child all the way up. Tio young people in adult toe like who are impacting millions of lives and it’s ah, jefferson awards so what’s the awards side of this. So when the awards is the celebration peace. So we are effectively the gold seal of service in america. We give out a we give out jefferson awards the national level, you would know basically every name. Okay. Who’s, one of jefferson word over the last forty three years. And then we have a media. Partner program, where we partner with ah, local affiliates, newspapers, etcetera but primary news outlets in communities all over the country. But today, reaching to seventy eight million households on dh, they are empowered to take the jefferson award and celebrate local grassroots unsung heroes. All right, a nobel prize for ah, for outstanding program work and and saving lives for impact impact. How about the foundation itself? Just number employees, just a quaint little bit number of employees annual budget. So it’s about twenty seven, employees, we have a, uh, about a ten and a half million dollar annual budget, of which much of that is in-kind it’s about a three and a half million dollar operating revenue budget. Okay, and we’re going to go out for a break in roughly a minute or so. So just, uh, give us a little overviewing of what? What some of the lessons are that you brought from equity sales on dh wall street. Teo, your charitable work. And i think the biggest thing is just that any organization, whether it’s for-profit or non-profit, needs to be world class in order to be successful and that starts with everything from how you manage and set your employees up for success to your back end systems that govern how you pay your rent, you know, pay your expenses and collect your revenues to don’t hurt management. Teo everything that you do needs to look and feel like you set for-profit world, but it’s really for impact. So i’m guessing you believe non-profit is your tax status? Not your mindset? Correct? Yeah, cool. Okay, of course. Hillary stays with us. We go after this break. I hope you do too. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way dahna welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Hillary schaefer let’s ah, let’s, dive into some of these lessons that you’ve brought with you this world class let’s start in the back end investment in infrastructure like c r, m databases, data management so that’s a that’s a terrific place to start because really every non-profit is powered by who they reach and how they reached them and how they communicate with, um and management of relationships, whether that’s a whether that’s, a donor, whether that’s, somebody, who’s won an award from our perspective, whether that somebody who has just invested in you are in your programs and how you understand that relationship, how you manage that relationship is all driven by the back end. Traditionally, people would use spreadsheets or just use, you know, sort of word and lists in their own brains, and fundamentally, it doesn’t get you as far as you need to get, and technology today is so sophisticated and there’s so many great great data pay systems that can integrate seamlessly with your website and with donor management tools and with, um, all mechanisms that you need to communicate effectively and really segment that communication into something that makes sense for that individual. It’s. Almost a shame not to you not to use it. Yeah, segmentation, and we’ll get to the benefit of that. I’ve had other guests. My voice just cracked like i’m a fourteen year old. I’ve had have a congratulations e. Everything else operates at, uh, the requisite age at fifty three. But my voice occasionally. Yeah, so we’ll get to the value of segmentation because people want to talk to personally, not not and mass and like everybody else, but so but this can be hard to invest in me, we’re talking about this is not serving program directly. This is not helping people directly. How do we overcome that mindset that we can get by with, you know, the lackadaisical, the the database that we’ve got her the internal processes we figured out our work arounds, you know we’re okay. It’s it’s finding you say that, right? Because they actually when you invest in a really good database management system and and client relationship manager, which is what c r m stands for, um, what you get out of it, that multiplier effect that you can get from having true, powerful relationships and understanding of all of your constituents, all consolidated is worth every dollar you know, and frankly there’s so many great systems which are out there, and they’re not that expensive. The most expensive part is the time of your staff, an external consultants, which you often need teo, take what is all of the stuff that you’ve cobbled together and to make it work for your organization. So an organization as an example we had brought in sales force. We use sales force. Um, we frankly had the wrong system installed with sales force. It took us a long time to figure out how to get the right system installed in all of those things. But it’s also taking us the better part of eighteen months to clean our data. Teo optimize our data to segment it appropriately so that we can communicate effectively with everybody in the way they want to be communicated with and a fair amount of staff time. And it’s that investment of taking somebody away from something that looks like perhaps it’s more important to their day to day life and put them into what’s really tedious work in order to be a better organization. But for us, if i think about it, if we have a database that reaches sixty thousand people, our ability to grow from an organization that reaches sixty this sixty thousand two, two, six hundred thousand to six million all contingent on us having optimized rc era this is key. So if you want to scale, you have to have the infrastructure to support that every organization wants to be at the next level i get so many questions about, you know, how do i get to next level? Can you refer me to somebody help us get to the next level? But i think often they don’t they’re not set up to get to the next level. They don’t they don’t have the support that they need, even if they were able to teo, multiply by ten there, you know the size of their their outreach. Without data, you have no chance. I’ll give you a great example in the nonprofit world statistic terrifies me, but something like sixty percent of donors don’t repeat on average across the non-profit space every year. Yeah, don’t come back, right? Well, don’t patrician right that’s because we’re not loving the people who are there. Everybody is focused on the next level. No, you’re focused on the next person you forget about the person who’s already said to you with their dollars. I care about what you d’oh at the heart of that is your database management system. I had a guest, peter shankman, um social media expert and marketing guy and his book is called zombie loyalists and basically had a last december. I think i had eternal you’re all your clients and customers into zombie loyalists that love you so much that they’re zombies for your work, and they’ll do your marketing, your pr, your communications for you, but ah, some of what he says boils down to the way to get the client you want is to be awesome to the client. You have that’s exactly right? I mean, i think about it from a from a fund-raising perspective. What the great fundraisers tell you is you should have four contacts with a donor for every time you ask them for something. No in orderto have those four contacts but matter to them, you need to know what they care about that needs to be in your database. You need to understand them that meets not only being your head. It needs to be institutionalized in your database. Ah, and then you need to have systems which set up, which push you to reach out to that person to make sure that you’re not forgetting to touch them four times before you go back to them and say, here’s, your invoice your sales force is a really cool example that you mentioned because for small shops it’s ideal, they’re the first ten licenses from sales force are free to non-profits and then they have a very deeply reduced ah fee for going beyond ten licenses. But i think for a lot of listeners ten licenses is enough for more than enough. So, you know, on i’ve had guests on from the non-profit technology conference and t c talking about the benefits of salesforce, you know, i think that’s right and sales force khun b a terrific tool it’s also it could be not that expensive or if you have the budget, the amount of tools that they have that you khun scale in two really optimizing take you to the next level are huge, so we don’t have we personally don’t have the budget we would love to have to spend with sales force, but we have a big, long wish list of things we would like to spend on specifically with sales force, with the tools that they have something bothering me to my head. Now, i didn’t mean to say lackadaisical databases, i meant to say lackluster, lackluster debate. Lackadaisical database doesn’t make any sense, it’s lazy, lazy self, you know, so that people could be lackadaisical. But the databases lackluster let’s talk a little about the segmentation of the benefit of communicating with people and showing that you know what their interests are when their birthdays are what they, how they like to be communicated with let’s, explore this know people are people, and everybody wants to feel touched individually. Nobody wants to feel like they’re part of a marketing campaign or that they’re part of a sort of a blast. People want to be touched individually. It’s why things like instagram work because they feel touched by a photograph ah, it’s the same thing with with donor or constituent segmentation everybody wants to feel like especially in the nonprofit world where you’re talking about emotion, you are effectively touching people where where they want to improve the world, but you’ve gotta understand which part of it inspires them. Yes, ah, and and also people like being cared for around the things that matter in their daily lives that have nothing to do with you. Ah, their children, their children’s ages what they d’oh? Ah, what their hobbies. Are where they like to travel all of those things. It just matters it’s all about having one on one of relationships. And the better your relationship is, the more likely you are to be able to maximize. And everything you’ve mentioned is data worth preserving its all data. You have to have people love it when you send them a note that says, happy birthday, no, super simple. It is very simple now. So what kinds of reminders do you get? Based on what kinds of things aside from birthday? What? Yeah. What others? Ah, it tends to relate to things that people have told you. Okay? And so for us, it would relate specifically to our program. So we have five different programs that have very, very different calendars. So that could relate. Teo, i i just need to get us a of the date because i know you desperately want to come to our national ceremony in new york city in march. Ah, but it could also be i know you really want to be. Ah, judge at our students in action conference in minneapolis. Ana and so getting that date to you in plenty of advance. Notice it really gets down to that level. All right? So the the value of segmentation and investment in infrastructure what about investment in consultants? You mentioned consulting? Nobody knows everything they need to know, but this could be tough to bring, bring other people in and have a fresh set of eyes evaluating you. It’s interesting on the consulting sight because i i personally have two two minds about consultants. Often i feel like you get charged too much for a percentage of somebody’s brain no on dh that’s the greatest risk with consulting. Ah, but also often they’re just expertise. You don’t want to bring in house. You can’t afford to bring in house, but you need somebody who has fresh eyes who knows something really specific that you don’t know ah, and with without which you can’t can’t go to the next level, you can’t execute effectively. So sales forces a terrific example. Um, there are so many tools inside sales force that enable you to do things like optimize your data and get rid of redundancy and all of those things, um and to, uh, to make it spoke for your organization for think the ways. In which you want to connect with people, i couldn’t do that myself, and i don’t have anybody in house who could do that for me. Could you just send your data data manager, database administrator to a sales force conference or course, yes, we do that too, okay, but it’s not enough, and for the cost of bringing you know you’ve got you’ve got away out the cost. So the question is, can you find somebody who is affordable to you in your organization that helps bring in those that kind of expertise in? I’m their things like building out an effective communication strategy where if you don’t have a big, robust communications team who can think about everything from database management, teo email to social media to all the things that go into digital infrastructure ah, and communications calendars and all of those things. At some point, it becomes really smart to bring in somebody from the outside to say, i’m building you a structure i’m helping you think about inside your organization, for you what a structure would look like, that you can afford let’s turn to our people i think my voice is my voice was crack again, it’s. A big bag, maybe. Yeah, you know. Uh, so you’re important asset, probably your most valuable asset. Most important, most expensive it’s expensive. I would guess inside most non-profits that that people are seventy eight percent of cost big, big, big percentage, um, and making impact in the world all relates to the people who you were in power to make that impact on your behalf as as either a full time employee or an independent contractor and losing employees is as expensive as losing the donors we were talking about, if not more so, you know woobox the amount of time you then need to spend teo find the person, bring them in house, and on average, it takes six to eighteen months to really optimize an employee. That’s a long time to invest in somebody new if you have somebody who’s good who’s sitting there right in front of you. The most important thing with people always is that they feel like they’re being set up to succeed. And they’re being given the tools that they need. Ah, to succeed. All right, how do we do this? Ah, well, that everything from the really basic and can feel very cumbersome to a management manager piece. But ah, gold setting and reviews, letting people know where they stand, being really straightforward with them about what they’re doing that’s terrific, and where they need to develop development goals is a big, big, big piece, and i don’t mean development is in fund-raising i mean, personal development, professional development around how can you be a much more effective employees? For the most part? Certainly in my experience, whether it’s on wall street or in the nonprofit world, when you sit in a review with somebody, they barely hear the good stuff ninety nine percent of what you tell them could be good. Everybody waits for the butt, the but needs to be real, meaning it needs to be i understand you here’s, where i see helping to take you as a human being and as a professional to the next level, and being able to deliver that in a way which is non threatening but having systems and structures around delivering reviews around goal, setting around, holding people accountable to those goals and around understanding them and wanting to be on their side are all the the most important things you can do, and it doesn’t matter what. Kind of an organization you’re out to do that my guest last week, we’re from the university of pittsburgh, and they were talking about incentive pay something that pitt has set up. They’ve defined what an exemplary fundraiser is. It’s basically achieving two hundred percent of your goal. But that’s a big organization, university of pittsburgh, might there be other ways of implementing incentive pay around? Aside from strictly money, money comp, you know, incentives are interesting in non-profits because, um, a, for the most part, non-profits don’t use sort of base bonus type structures, but there are tons of other ways that you can make somebody feel really good about what they do and whether that’s simply celebrating their accomplishments to the other employees into your board. People really thrive on that, but it can also be other things, like giving them an extra days vacation. Um, you know, sending them home on purpose when their kid’s sick and you tell them that family comes first, you know, all those things that’s really more around culture, but there are there are smart things you can do where you say, you know what? I don’t have the dollar to give. You. But i do have a day to give you or two or whatever it is. Whatever it is, that you’ve earned benefits structures are very important. Um, covering people and their families, and how you do that and how you communicate it. Incredibly important and totally under sort of undervalued in the mindset in the nonprofit world about what that means to an individual. And you say, i care about you and your health, and i care about your family in there. We have just about a minute left or so we have a couple more than more than a couple minutes. How much time do we have left? Sam? Okay, dahna then let’s. Ah, my mistake. Let’s. Keep talking about some some policies around employment. Maybe around training. You’ve got a new employee. You’ve spent the requisite amount of time recruiting you believe you’ve got the best person, the orientation, the training process, the onboarding process oven employees that one of the single most important things that you d’oh. So with us, justus a simple example. First, everybody gets a very long, very detailed employee manual that they have to read where they really understand what the operating premises are of the organ you’re holding your hands, like four inches apart for inches. It’s not four inches thick. Okay, okay. They’re recording, so that would be way too much street. All right, but i use my hands a lot. I think i’m going to italy and one hundred in italian, so i didn’t think you were using them enough. That must be the eight and half months. Pregnant part. Yes, i understand. Ok, the but having that set of expectations in somebody’s mind where they read it? They have to affirm it. They have to tell you that they’ve read it. That tells them everything from how many vacation days they do have, how they can accrue more vacation, what the benefits are to them, how they can get in trouble, how they can stay out of trouble. What a whistle blower policy might look like. All of those things very, very important, but then bringing people into the culture of the organization into your programs where they really feel armed. Tio ah, to be an effective employees. Ah, it’s. So fundamental. So we we set up a schedule time with all of our program managers. We have our end of its staff. When they come in they go. They shadow individuals who do either their job or even other jobs inside the organization. Because you’ve got to understand the entire organization. I think in order to be effective in your silo. Um ah, and then we do profession. We were very open to paying from people doing professional development and encourage it. Ah, and then we do regular staff retreats where everybody comes together and we work on pieces that feel like they might be holes in the skill set to the entire organization again. Investment where its infrastructure or people? You just you can’t shortchange these things and expect to scale on grow the organization. I mean, for the amount it costs me, tio run a staff retreat every year, eyes about one percent of what it costs me to pay my staff. Yeah, that is a very worthwhile investment to make that staff be a leverage oppcoll army. We’re gonna leave it there. Hillary shafer she’s uh, executive director of jefferson awards foundation there at jefferson awards dot or ge and again on twitter. She’s at beard, hillary. Thank you so much, hillary. Thank you. Real pleasure and gun muzzle tough. Congratulations on your pregnancy. Thank you very much. Jean takagi and program your board coming up first. Pursuant acquisition campaigns. They had a free webinar to help you acquire new donors. That was back on august thirty first. But it’s not too late. This is not a date news. No, no one current news. You can watch the archive. Go to tony dot m a slash pursuant capital p please. And the info was there to watch. The archive video tony dahna em a slash pursuant for the archive on acquisition campaigns. Rechner, cps. They do go way beyond the numbers. They have lots of policy statements for you. Ah, more than from last week. Ethical conduct for board members, disaster recovery, investment policy, independent contractor versus employee checklist i know non-profit struggle with that. We’ve covered it and there’s a lot more resources at wagner cpas dot com quick resource is then guides that’s where you get all this good info stop wasting your time using business accounting software for your books you aren’t a business you’re non-profit appaloosa counting is designed for non-profits built from the ground up to make your non-profit financial management simple and affordable. Please check this out. Our new sponsor, apple, owes its fund accounting, advanced reporting, donation tracking and there’s mohr included in annapolis. Accounting it’s all in one, easy to use. Go to non-profit wizard dot com now for tony’s take two. I still got this five minute marketing for planned e-giving i condensed down to the to the, uh most essential information twenty five minutes. Hard to believe that i could talk for twenty five minutes and it not all be critical. I had difficulty with that, but the whole concept of distilling it down. But i did. And i got it down to about three minutes. Roughly and that’s the best of the five minute marketing tips that i’ve got for you for planned giving. I want you to get started with your plan giving marketing. Watch the tips. Check out the video. Three minutes worth it’s at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two. And here is jean takagi with program you’re bored jean takagi he’s, a principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. Gene has been gene has been a regular contributor to show it’s got to be going on three years. Gina i if it’s not three it’s very close. He had it’s, the non popular of the non popular beautiful he had it’s the popular non-profit law blawg dot com non-profit law blogged dot com it’s very popular. And on twitter he’s at jack g t k happy new year jean takagi. Welcome back. Happy new year. Tony it’s. Great to be on. Thank you. I love having you. How long have you been? A contributor every month, i think it’s been a little over three years. A zit? Is it over three? Love it. It could be i think we met three years ago at a bar in san francisco, if i remember, right? Oh, for sure. It’s not like we pick. I picked you up there where i knew you before. I’m not that easy with contributors. I mean, yes, we we knew each other. And then we certainly did meet that’s, right? With along with emily chan? Yes. That’s. Right. Um, let’s see, our board has our board has some responsibilities and around program you’re concerned that they’re not they’re not fulfilling those responsibilities. Yeah, i just feel like there’s there’s, maybe some lack of attention paid on the boards roll on program oversight? I think so often went especially when you talk with lawyers or accountants were talking about financial oversight and we’re saying we’ll make sure you’re solvent. Make sure you have enough money to pay off your debts. They become do we don’t really talk very much about programs, but certainly the management folks and the thunder’s air talking about programs and whether they’re effective and efficient that furthering the mission. So, you know, i thought we should explore a little bit about what the board duties are in in that event as well. Can you just remind us first, we’ve talked about this a while ago. There are three duties that board members have. I was faith, hope and chastity, or on the greatest of those is but yeah, the three duties are the duty of care and that’s act with reasonable care in providing direction and oversight over the organization, the duty of loyalty, and a lot of that has to do with avoiding conflicts of interests that are not in the best interest of the organizations, but are more for the best interest of an insider and the duty of obedience which lawyers air very interested in, and that’s a bang with both the outside laws of you know, that apply to the organization and the internal laws like the by-laws and other policies that the documents may have those air the three to be to be concerned with. Okay and and around program program is essential. Man. That’s what charity’s exist for his programs? Oh, my voice just cracked like i’m a fourteen year old exist that’s. Exciting stuff. Now that it is, it is that’s. Right? Well, you make it interesting. That’s. Why? I love having you back. You make the what could very well be a dry topic. I think you make it interesting. And listeners do too. Yeah. That’s. What? Charity’s air here is for a program. Yeah, exactly. I mean, who cares? The indie at the end of the day, if we’ve got great financials, it’s none of our programs are effective, and we don’t do a service to the community. Precisely. So what? What do we need to be doing? What to boards need to be doing around around program. Well, i think in meeting those three duties, the critical aspect for boards to make sure they’re reasonably informed. Ah, and just get a program report every month or every two months. You know, a ten minute program report from the executive director or program director is fine and good. But does that mean the board really understands the programs and whether the advance the mission on do they understand how the program’s advance emission? And did they ever ask you more difficult questions about are the programs effective? At advancing the mission. Or do we have alternatives? Or should we think of alternatives that might be able to advance that mission mohr effectively or more efficiently, given the limited resources that we all have? First up in this is and we have talked about this, your mission needs to be very clear. Yeah, and one of the things you have to do is make sure you go back. And this is the lawyer speaking, make sure you go back to your articles of incorporation and by-laws and make sure that the mission statement that years, thinking that you’re furthering is consistent with what the law says your mission is, and that’s that’s how it’s displayed on the governing documents and figuring out whether we are effective at meeting our mission. Now we’ve gotto identify cem numbers, right? I mean, it’s, not just gonna be a ten minute report from the program director, we’ve got to be looking at some numbers to figure out whether our we’re having the outcomes that we want, right and it’s such a such a difficult question and that’s, why it’s it’s all about keeping informed? Because you know the whole area of program. Evaluation and that cantor and and a lot of institutions like the stanford center on philanthropy in civil society and mckinsey and, you know, the non-profit cordially foundations under the all have been raiding all sorts of things on program evaluation and how we need more metrics and, you know, but all of that is great, but this is really hard stuff for a lot of non-profits to do so, yes, trying to figure out what what measurements are are important for us to figure out. Are we advancing our mission effectively? And then are we advancing it efficiently is really hard stuff, i think tip typically non-profits will, you know, measure how much money we’ve raised, how many visitors we’ve had or people with served, how many members we have? What is our overhead ratio on? We’ve had discussions on that topic as well, and, you know, those are interesting figures in all important, and i don’t want to downplay that, but what about, you know, then, you know, the number of clients served, for example, does that really tell us what impact that’s done? No before the clients and you know, the program staff may know that, but how does the board know that if we have? If we served two thousand clients last month, did we did we serve them by giving them one meal? Did that change their lives? Did we do more than that? Did we provide services? What? What and impact are we trying to aim for? And what results are we getting those air really difficult things to try to figure out. But i think the board needs to push the organization in that direction. Of trying to figure out are the programs that write programs? Are we effectively implementing it? And if you want to, you know, evaluate your executive and evaluate your programs. You’ve gotta have a good understanding of that. I feel your passion around this, jean. I really do. It comes it’s it’s palpable. Now, in managing these programs, it’s not the board’s roll. Teo to be day to day there’s clearly there’s a delegation that has to be happening. Yeah, absolutely. And and the board certainly has the ability to and should be delegating if they have staff in an executive director. Particularly, um, delegating those duties on those people. And especially, you know, holding the executive accountable. And tasking executive and making sure the executive has resources to be able to do this, to try to figure out what measurements should we take? Teo, evaluate our programs. What what’s important? What do we have the capacity to do now? And what? What do we aspire to do? What are outside stakeholders wanting? What are the foundations saying we must have? And what are the donor’s expecting from us and how to our competitors provide that type of information back? I think we just need to push our executives. We’re lucky enough to have them to figure some of those things out. And none of this has done overnight. Of course, tony. But you know, you you’ve gotto work at this, and sometimes you’re going to move forward, and sometimes you gotta move backwards. But you’ve got to keep pushing, pushing ahead. You just asked five or six really difficult but critical questions. Um, it’s a good thing. This is a podcast cause now people can listen. Go, go back to the past one minute and listen to those five or six questions. Jean just just named, you know, difficulty, but but but critical. And and yet the board’s oversight responsibility remains, and that can’t be delegated. That’s, right? So you know, the board, khun delegate management, but the board can’t delegate its ultimate oversight of the organization and it’s, you know, it’s responsibility to plan the direction of the organization. So status quo, if you know if that’s all you’re satisfied with and you don’t aim to do anything else with that, you know, that may not that may indicate that you don’t have the best board in place, and i was a little shocked. Teo learned, i think two days ago guidestar held a web cast, and there was a survey done of executive directors, and seventy five percent said they were unhappy with their boards and there’s a big disconnect there seventy five percent approved. Okay, what else? What else, uh, is part of the boards oversight of program? Gene? Well, you know, one thing i kind of want to emphasize as well is that i don’t want to put all of this on the board of directors, and i realized that the vast majority of board members are volunteers and have busy lives otherwise and are doing an amazing job. Trying to contribute to their organizations, the disconnect with the exec director is usually because of communications and a lack of understanding of their respective roles. So i just want to put a little bit of a burden on the executive director as well, to make sure that they are emphasizing board development and helping the board understand its responsibilities and sometimes bringing in experts, even though they may cost a little at the outset. Khun b really valuable to an organisation to try to figure out what these roles are, and again put in a little investment up front, and you can get payoff down the road even if you have some failures along the way. But it’s just that continuing to push forward to trying to understand what you’re doing who’s responsible for what? On figuring that stuff out the metrics themselves again. Our khun b, you know, exceedingly difficult if if i asked you give us metrics on changing laws when we were fighting for civil rights, well, that might take years or decades to get any measurable results per se that might make a thunder happy. And you know what would have happened in the early sixties you know, civil rights organizations just had their program shut down because boards didn’t get the right metrics. That would have been ridiculous, right? So we have to understand the limitation of these measurements as well, but continue to try to figure out what important steps or benchmarks we’re shooting for and what’s important to do, even if we don’t get the metrics. Ah, and make sure our funders and donors and stakeholders understand those limitations. Well, just a minute or so before before breaking what? What kind of expert would help us with this? What would we search for? Well, there there are some consultants out there who specialize in program evaluation, and there there are definitely resource is out there. I have named a few organizations already, but let me give you a few more the foundation centre and they’re grantspace website has got some excellent resource is on program evaluation, the national council of non-profits also has some excellent resources. They’re they’re definitely resource is out there. And if you look for non-profit consultants who got program evaluation exper thirties, i think that can be a starting place. This is also a ripe area for collaboration. Amongst organizations that are serving similar populations, or half similar missions, to try to meet together and talked about how they’re measuring, you know, their program, results and what would work for maybe, you know, across the sub sector that that they’re serving, all of those things are really important. I think again, executive leadership is really important to get the board in motion, but the board also has to hold the executive responsible for making sure that happens as well. Let’s, take a break. Gene and i, of course, will keep talking about the board’s responsibility around program and the executive director’s, too. Lynette singleton and at lays, right. Thank you for thank you very much. For those very, very kind thoughts on twitter. Hang in there. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist market of eco enterprises charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, i’m kate piela, executive director of dance, new amsterdam. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. More live listener love junction china ni hao, the netherlands gary indiana the home of christmas story, right? I’m pretty sure a christmas story that movie took place in gary, indiana live listen, i’d love to gary, indiana, and we’ve got a couple checking in from japan, hiroshima and kobe konnichi wa, farmington, michigan live listener love out to you. We have a question from twitter jean very loyal listener lynette singleton asks, do we know why there’s this lack of love between executive directors with and their boards, any ideas what’s contributing to that? I think i’m sorry, tony, that i think there are a number of factors that make be contributing to that, but i think the first is lack of understanding of the rules at each place and then it’s it’s a matter of communication between the two parties there are greater vacations that that board’s place on executives and reliance on the executives tio tio make do with limited resources to produce amazing results, and that can sometimes be a very heavy burden on the executive without a lot of support from the board and exactly what the board’s role is in supporting the executive director’s. Also, i think they’re many areas where there’s a lack of agreement or understanding between those roles and, you know, fund-raising is actually one of the areas of ax. Actually, some controversy, i think, you know, is the board involved. Is the board’s role no to raise funds for the organisation. From a legal perspective, i might answer no to some extent, from a more operational perspective, i would say, of course it is, so they’re they’re different considerations, and that was a charity navigator study, right? I’m not sure. I thought you said i’d start with, i’m sorry, the organization that did the webinar. Okay, okay, god start. Pardon me. Ok wave talking, talking about program meeting the mission, but there’s also legal requirements around program as well. Sure, and then the board should make sure that the executive is ensuring that the program is in compliance with whatever applicable laws might be there, whether it have to do with the facility of the organization or the employees and volunteers working for it, their basic risk management steps that they may want to take a swell, including ensuring that there’s proper insurance that, for whatever activities are are involved. Obviously, if you’re doing a summer day camp involving rope climbing and like that that’s going to be a little bit more significant in terms of risk management than if you’re just doing administrative work, but lots of legal compliance things, licensing, permitting and in all of those think, well, can board members be personally liable if laws are being broken and that’s why we have directors and officers insurance, isn’t it? Yeah, part partly why we have that it’s usually, you know, if there’s some sort of negligence involved when the board members acting not as a boardmember but is a volunteer for a program, then you’re probably looking at commercial general liability insurance to protect against, you know, somebody slip and fall and blaming the volunteer who was right supposed to set it up on the board members, directors and officers. Insurance will really protect against decisions that the board made that ultimately, you know, in hindsight, we’re negligent or grossly negligent, and, you know, if they decided to hold a program in involved involving bungee jumping with six year olds and without adequate supervision that, you know, that would be the type of negligence that could get boardmember personally liable for something like that. But volunteermatch boardmember czar really, really, really rarely held personally liable absent some sort of malfeasance or self dealing really benefit themselves. Okay, i’ve seen some six year olds on the subway that i wouldn’t mind having participate in that that bungee jumping off a cliff i could i could give them a little shove to get them started, but not not kids. I know nobody related to me only only what’s people i’ve seen in some pipe it that it go well, now they’re real. I’ve seen him in the subway, i just don’t know who they are. I can’t name them, but i could point them out easily. Probably on my way home. I’ll encounter a few. Um, what else should we be thinking about? You know, your get before i asked before we do that, you’re an anarchist. Also, you’re making us. I got two troublemakers on the show today. You are making us ask questions that are very difficult, but but critical? Yeah. You know, i think of lawyers and consultants more broadly, that’s what what we do, we can implement the changes that we talked about, what we want to raise the questions because we want boards and executives to really be thinking about these things and discussing them. And that’ll help break down the barriers and the misunderstandings and hopefully make more executive directors feel that their boards air great, make more executive, make more boards feel that their executive directors are doing a great job as well. As i said, i feel your passion around this. We have just about two minutes. What? You have another thought around this? Yeah. You know, just tio, make sure that again and i’ve talked a little bit about this is that there are limitations to what metrics can provide to an organization and some things just take a really long time to figure out research i mentioned lobbying on civil rights issues is one example, but research as well, you know, for going to engage in research of a new program and how it’s going to work or developing a new medical device or drug that’s going to be beneficial to developing nations and that the people there who might not have the resources to be able to afford these things, we’ve got to be a little bit experimental. And i know you know, there’s been preaching to the choir about embracing failure and sharing it so we can learn in advance, but that really is something that all echo as well, that, you know, we’re going to get metrics and sometimes the metrics they’re going to show we failed, but if we never fail, that means we’ve never really pushed the envelope of making a more substantial change, and we’re just sort of, you know, relying on making little incremental changes, and we have to think about our organizations and say, are we detective organization that just wants to stay status quo? Do we want to make little tiny? Incremental changes year by year or do we actually want to look at solving or advancing our mission in a really big way and actually take some risk and find some programs out there that might be more risky and that might fail and help educate our funders and our donors and our supporters that this is what we’re doing and not everything is going to work, but this is the way to advance, you know, our cause lawyer with a heart, jean jean takagi, really so grateful that you’re contributing to the show? Jean, thank you so much. Thank you, johnny. And thanks for basing this serious subject today. That’s all right, uh, we have a little fun with it. You’re an anarchist is no question cubine you’ll find jean at non-profit law blogged dot com that’s the block that he edits and he’s at g tack on twitter. Thank you again, jean, thanks so much. Next week it’ll be a good one. You have my word. I don’t know anything about fermentation. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com and these are our sponsors pursuing online tools. For small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled pursuing dot com wagner, sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. With your cps dot com. You’re not a business. You’re non-profit stoploss accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com, and we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com, a creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez, and this terrific music is by scott stein of brooklyn. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be going. Buy-in what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for March 24, 2017: Fire Up Your Board Fundraising

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Gail Perry: Fire Up Your Board Fundraising

Consultant and author Gail Perry will reveal proven techniques to motivate your board to step-up to their fundraising responsibilities. Her book is “Fired Up Fundraising.” (Originally aired 11/12/10. And board fundraising is still an issue.)

 

 


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Oh, hi there. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week, sean congo. He e mailed me. I work in the innovation space and i find your non-profit radio podcast super relevant to what i do loved twenty seventeen legal tips episode thank you twenty seventeen legal tips episode that was aaron bradrick on january sixth. Jean takagi blew it. I invited him, but he couldn’t pull it together, so he had someone from his office do it. I’m not sure if it’s drugs or alcohol, it might be i don’t know. Maybe it is you tell me it might be drugs or alcohol. I just don’t know. Sean continues, i just put an awesome review and rating on itunes and just wanted to pass on the love, keep doing your thing and inspiring us to crush it. Well, it’s actually be great is what i encourage at the end of encourage it’s more than just an encouragement and explicit demand. Be great. So it’s not quite crush it. But it’s it’s i think crushing it is. Ah, is lesser than be great any case, shawn still grateful whether it’s crushing it or be great. Thanks for loving non-profit radio. Thank you for the itunes raid in review. Um, and you can find us on itunes at non-profit radio dot net. Just saying, i don’t know is that inappropriate self promotion? I don’t know you tell me, he’s shaun congo neo-sage a w n k a n ew ngo and he’s at sean congo dot com sean, thank you so much for the non-profit radio love. Congratulations on being this week’s listener of the week and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get hit with ridiculous oh, gangly own itis if you got me nervous with the idea that you missed today’s, show, fire up your board fund-raising consultant and author gail perry will reveal proven techniques to motivate your board to step up to their fund-raising responsibilities. Her book is fired-up fund-raising and that originally aired november twelfth, twenty ten this show’s been around a long time, you know, we’re coming up on seventh anniversary in july every every july is another fifty shows, so in november two thousand ten, we were about joy was never remember four months old. Is that right? Yes, four months old. So the quality of my questioning may not be up to what you’re accustomed to in these days, but the information still very relevant board fund-raising still very, very much an issue seven years later, and we didn’t only start talking about it in two thousand ten on tony steak, too. Naps and that’s right naps two weeks in a row are you gonna give me trouble with that? We’re about it off my back with the naps responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here is gail perry on firing up your board fund-raising from november two thousand ten, fire up your board fund-raising i’ll be joined by gail perry. Gale is a consultant and the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action. Her book title pretty much says it all, she’s going to share proven techniques to motivate your board to step up to their fund-raising responsibilities gayle’s book is published by wiley, and it is available on amazon gail’s. With us for the hour i’m joined now by the president of gale perry associates, gail perry is a consultant and author. As i said earlier, her book is fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action, published by wiley, available on amazon dot com. Gail is an international speaker on this subject, and she leads her own has led her own consulting firm for over fourteen years. I’m very glad that gale’s practice brings her to the show today. She’s joining us from north carolina? Welcome, gail. How you doing? I’m doing well. Welcome. Welcome to the show. Pleasure to have you. Yeah. Why’s fund-raising important for board members. Well, actually, they they actually own for our big fun for it. And many say that they have a very bilich boardmember not agree with gail. I’m gonna interrupt you. I know you’re on your own. A vonage connection, i think. Is that you? Yeah. And it’s breaking up a little bit. Do you have another phone that you can call on and i will do a little a little song and dance while you call him. Okay. Please do this’s. Tony martignetti let me. Okay, i was all set for my song and dance like this, she cuts me off. We’re just having a little technical problem with trying to get a good connection from gail galley there matter-ness it sounds better. One we want to continue with the question why? And you cut me? I didn’t get to do my song and dance. You believe this? Alright, maybe. Maybe later notion. Uh, gail, you still there? There, gail that’s. Beautiful. All right. You know, this is live radio because this wouldn’t happen. Otherwise we have gale back, but we’re going to take this break. I’ll be joined by gail perry after this break. Please stay with me. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent dahna. I’m joined now by gail perry. Our subject is fired-up you’re bored fund-raising gail, you’re with us, right? Okay, excellent, much, much better and let’s go to that first question. Why is fund-raising important for board members? Gale? Well, boardmember have such a responsibility to make sure the organization is successful, but the problem is that many organs many boardmember zehr not enlisted a recruited on dh, told when they’re recruited that theirjob fund-raising so at the outset, they should be told they should be told, and it doesn’t happen. I think that non-profits or embarrassed to ask him or afraid to bring it up, and i think it backfired terribly because then the staff wants the board to helping fund-raising in the board says what? What do you what do you know? What about yes, you know, the chronicle of philanthropy just yesterday in the online edition had an article about the frustrations among non-profits that board members don’t step up to this important obligation. And on the side bar there were four articles going back to i think nineteen, ninety seven since then, and all of them had the headline’s something like non-profit boardmember sze don’t step up. To their responsibilities, and here was basically that four or five maybe articles since i think nineteen, ninety seven, i know this is an enormous area of frustration for non-profits yeah, it is, but the problem is that i think i think non-profits bear a lot of the blame because i think i think, frankly, i think their expectations are way too high. You can’t expect untrained volunteers to be successful in fund-raising when they’ve never done it before and they may not have the personality for it, frankly, i don’t want on that boardmember soliciting because they wouldn’t be good at it. You probably have to clean up. Okay, we’re gonna talk about that later on. But what other roles there are around fund-raising besides soliciting, but so you think you think the responsibility lies with the non-profit wants a little more about that? Yeah, there’s a there’s, a sinus flandez says, we all get the boards we deserve on that means that the more time and energy you spend on your board them or you get out of him, and i think that non-profit leaders need to take take a leadership role with their board and give them training and talkto them about expectations and talk to them about what it is that the job of the board members is to do because somebody boardmember don’t know, and i’m frankly, a frankly, i think a lot of people who serve on board are very well meaning people, and they want to do a good job, but you got to tell him what you need. Yeah, that’s always that’s always the case, they’re passionate about the mission, and i know part of your messages toe unleash that passion, we’ll get to that they’re always passionate about, otherwise they would have turned you down, you know, they care, but you gotta figure out a way to make it easy for him and make it fundez form and what are some of the challenges that that are either organizational or personal to board members? Well, you know, the one thing they don’t know anything about fund-raising they be racking, i think it’s unreasonable to assume that somebody can do a great job when they when they’re totally untrue ride and i’m a battle that weary, hardened veteran of twenty five years and fund-raising and i’m very comfortable with that i got his sessions, like write articles in conferences understand the techniques in the technology, so one of the rules is they don’t understand it at all. I think four members think that fund-raising is all about asking for money, and we all know that that’s not particularly good fund-raising because good fund-raising is much more of a cultivation process in the relationship driven process, but if boardmember think it’s all about asking and it’s all about money, then they freeze, you know, from from my perspective, i think fund-raising is about changing the world and helping children and helping the environment and all the things that you’re raising money for, and the board members get stuck in this mythology of what they think fund-raising years, and they make it into this horrible yucky, embarrassing, um, tacky, poor manners, you know, that they made it back-up also its myths about it, but when you do it right, it’s, a really joyful experience and your matching donors with causes that mythology often is carried on by the organization. Yeah, you know, i think i think i think fundrasing got a bad rap all around because a lot of people are nervous about it. And they don’t they don’t understand it. They don’t know how to do it well. And and it does take a special skill set really does. What about the the meetings that board members are attending and they’d be used for your left looking she’s laughing at me on my own show? You believe this? I know you. I know you’re laughing, but i’m a delight. Board meetings don’t think that board meetings are boring, and i think the board members would tell you that they’re boring and i would say to you, if you have boring meetings, what kind of a board? And you gonna have a board board? Uh, and if you have a board board, i don’t think they’re going to take action and fundrasing so it’s very important that we make boardmember into a cheerleading session and a and a exciting motivational experience now, that’s interesting. Sometimes, you know, something called a cheerleading session is used pejoratively, but obviously you don’t mean that. How would you turn boardmember into a cheerleading session? Well, you know, i think it’s gotta have some excitement in passion to it. I think the leadership has got to be passionate and excited? I think you’ve got to talk about important issues. You’ve got a door way. Shit boardmember time with crap. Excuse me. You know, um thank you. You bring in testimonials from people who who, uh, who are being helped by your organization. I mean, just last night i was doing aboard retreat with our local women’s center, and i asked the director to tell us a story of something that had touched her heart recently. And she said she told the story of this woman who had two children, preschool children, small ones. Her husband lost his job and he abandoned the family. And she was that her last resort. She didn’t know what to do. She was going to get evicted from her apartment. She has no money. She had nothing. Two small children had never worked outside the home. And when gene, the director of the women’s center, told her that that the women’s center could help her with her rent for a couple months so she got herself established. The lady burst into tears and gene in telling the story. Last night she cried, had a blower nose and and you know, it was in front. Of all the board members and the board members really got it about how important their work. Wass and it was a very touching and motivational. It was probably the most touching moment i experienced all weekend work. Yeah. That’s. An outstanding story. And in a in a board meeting. And what was the reaction to board members? Could you see any? Oh, yeah. Physical reaction. Thank you, teo. I think they feel that the energy. So i think a lot about energy. I think that energy probably maybe is the basis of all this stuff. Let’s talk a little more about that because you think about it a lot. What do you mean about energy? You know, do you let me give you a little example? Do you have a friend whose energy is like the cold, clammy kitchen sink? You know what has been friday night with them? Right? But do you have a friend whose energies like the warm sunshine and you want to spend time with them? And one of my great fund-raising motta’s is winding down. Throw a party because what if you could make what you’re doing fun? You would trap people, teo and it board meetings air fun. If the board members enjoy getting together, if, um, if they if you could make your boar biddies into a party and let people enjoy themselves, you attract more people to your cause. And if you’re having a fund-raising of yet turned that into a party and you will bring me more money. There’s a whole lot of this attitude about, uh, being gregarious and being i mean, you changed the world by expanding your energy and influencing other people. And if boardmember zehr embarrassed about fund-raising and embarrassed about, quote, hitting up somebody or something, their energy is going to be like the clothes cold, clammy kitchen sink. So i gotta get boardmember away from their myths about fund-raising being yucky and get him pointed toward maybe friendraising so they could be excited about what they’re doing and really inspired about the work. And and there are other activities which we’ll talk about that that are appropriate around fund-raising. It’s interesting that the act of fund-raising can be seen as yucky and clammy and dirty and embarrassing and begging, even which is a very debased form of human action or the same action at same activity fund-raising can be seen is one of the most powerful shining examples of compassion and human. Yes, i’m talking with gail perry she’s, a consultant and author of the president of gale perry associates, and her book is fired-up fund-raising turn board passion into action. Gail, aside from the’s, very poignant testimonials at meetings, how else can can we in live in this thiss passion? Well, i like, i’d like to ask for members by the care. What do you mean? Just go around the table and ask or, you mean, write it out? How? Well, how logistically detail? How would we do that? Development director for hospice tried the question with her group this way, she said to our board members, and they were very stiff bunch of noone who didn’t like they thought their job is to manage money, not to raise it, you know, that kind of people, and she went around the table and she said, tell me what? Legacy you’d like to leave from serving on sport, right? They went around the table. Whoa. And he said you would have thought i’d open the floodgates. She said she had never seen such emotion in such passion in these people and she said she changed way have a meeting she had had with these people in three years in a again a very telling story. Gale, we actually we have a call and i haven’t even said the number. Look at this. If you’d like to talk to gail are calling number is eight. Seven seven for eight xero for one, two zero, eight, seven, seven. Forty xero for one to zero and we have a caller. What is your name, please? Hi. My name is marion marion. Hi. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. What’s. Your question for gail might. My question is, what are boardmember sze? We’ve made the mistake. Scale is already, uh, discussed in terms of we didn’t pre educate them about the fund-raising aspect. I guess going forward, you know, live and learn. How do we go forward in picking board members? How do we screen them and educate them before we picked them that this is going to be part of their job duty. And also does she have any ideas in terms of resources that we could use to get people over this hump of feeling like fund-raising is yucky because i agree with friendraising legally, maybe the goal is to ask those friends for money, and how do we educate our board members appropriately? Barry and i’m going to ask youto take the answer off off off line on the air because you’re breaking up a little bit, but we have your questions. Thank you very much for calling again the number the number to call is eight seven seven for eight xero for one to xero gale, what about the marin’s? First question on on screening board members? Well, let me give you an example. I’m chair of the board governance committee for statewide boarding here in north carolina, and we were literally a fund-raising board and we have changed our mission to write be much more specific about fund-raising and it’s, my job to be the rude i’m sorry, it’s, my job to be in charge of the boardmember recruitment process, not surprised, and so we’ve had people in action all over the state all year and, you know, feel feeling and potential boardmember and i have gotten off the phone with thes women that we’re enlisting, and i said, listen, i just want to go over with you, the expectations, and i don’t you to be surprised i said the really number one job of boardmember xyz to be leaders in their local fund-raising event in their local towns and do you have any problem with calling people for sponsorships and blah, blah, blah? And they’re very explicit to him, and they usually say, no, i’m happy to do that, and then i say and, you know, i just want to let you know that most of the board members almost all of us are contributing at the thousand dollar level is trailblazers and out of what be surprised about that either? And do you think that’s, something you could consider and the people i talked to said, yeah, i think i can consider that so it’s been it’s been amazing? That has been so easy for me to talk about it because it can be embarrassing, but somehow i’m not the person who enlisted them. I’m sort of like the policeman to screen them before they come on the board because they want to be accepted into this group of very high powered women, and they don’t want any surprises, and so they’re pretty grateful for the for the conversation with me, and they’re really what about putting these expectations in writing nothing that’s very helpful. So after you’ve gotten their verbal but there’s, nothing there a lot of organizations that have lots of written expectations that board members have signed and nothing happened. Yeah, well, ok, of course, that the writings need to be enforced mohr essential than the riding it out. Okay, think about it because you gotta oddball people or get him on the phone and very direct people don’t read stuff anyway, right? Well, but so are you suggesting a conversation and then something in writing? Onda writing, of course, needs to be enforced. People don’t enforce stuff going just although i do know a couple of boards that they give their boardmember xero sort of a report card at there place every board meeting about where they stand on their commitment. Yeah, well, i think we’re going to talk later. That’s wonderful! We’ll talk later and we’ll talk later in the hour about self assessment in just a minute, we have left before a break. Gale, can you share with our caller the sum of the second question cem resource is for making fund-raising more appealing. Yeah, and if i could suggest a my website gai o perry dot com, i have a ton of articles, uninspiring board members and lots of different techniques in conversations to stage with them to help them change their attitude about fund-raising i think you need to have a frank fear of convert xero fund-raising ization, um, and that i think that’s very healthy and what you call it cleansing moment, so let him throw up about it. Uh, and then you’ve gotta have a conversation about abundance versus scarcity and about the importance of optimism and the connection to their passion and then friend making such a big deal because, frankly, i held my speak all over the country on this, and i’ll tell everybody i would rather have a friend to my cause than a donor. Excellent gail, we’re going to take a break. Those resources are available at gail perry dot. Com and you’ll also find a link to those resources, which are which are excellent. I was through them on my block it mpg a dv dot com under the show today’s show post we’re going to take a break after the rake. Of course, gail parry stays with us and hope you do too more with gail perry is coming up first. Pursuant, they have the replay of the break through fund-raising webinar it is up and it’s pursuing so you know that it is free if you want to break through two extraordinary fund-raising this is going to help you out, you’ll figure out the invisible obstacles that are holding you back. Affiliates here is another resource you can take advantage of if you couldn’t make the live webinar catch it now sometimes the timing doesn’t work out for our affiliates, but now you get the archive version it’s up it’s at pursuing dot com click resource is than webinars couldn’t be simpler. We’ll be spelling spelling bees for millennial fund-raising how about a game show in a local place as a fundraiser? That’s what these bees are spelling bee concert stand up comedy live music, dancing check out their video it’s that we b e spelling dot com very cool events now time for tony’s take two. I love naps and get off my back about it. Yes, it’s two weeks in a row, back off, it’s my show i’ll do whatever the hell i want and i’m a fan of napping you only need research says about twenty minutes toe work more efficiently for the rest of your workday so give in to that post lunch slump. Naps are encouraged all over the world and my video has links to research the twenty minute research. And i’ve got a link to worldwide nap culture and also a link to a video that i did on minute sweets when i was at the d f w airport, where i wake up from an in sweet nap and i review that service minute sweets at airports, they’re they’re cool. I got a link to that also, the video is at tony martignetti dot com all about naps gotta love him. That is tony steak too live listen, love goes out were pre recorded but the love goes out on the day that the show is live then not. Now i have love, but it’s got going out now it goes out. Then this day, today in the future, the live love, everybody who’s throughout the world. We know they’re in asia. We know we got asia. Ah, we know we got california. We know you got new york, new york, they’ve been. You’ve been very consistent. New york, new york, new bern, north carolina consistent so the love goes out to the live listeners and quick on the heels of the podcast pleasantries to the over twelve thousand listening in the time shift very, very glad that you are with us. That’s the vast majority of our listening audience pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections got to do him am fm affiliate stations throughout the country later station know that will be be glad i get occasional feedback, but not too much from our am and fm stations. Let them know you’re listening. Please do a service to them and for non-profit radio our affiliate listeners throughout the country on the am and fm stations, the family of the family of stations non-profit radio i’m glad you’re with us affiliate listeners here’s the rest of gale perry on firing up your board fund-raising my guest is gail perry, the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action that is published by wiley and available at amazon. Gail, you left with a very interesting ah sort of ah, phrase, repeat that for us and let’s let’s think about that. Grantmaking i don’t want to see it. I said i would rather have a friend to my cause than a donor rather have a friend in a donor, and people are shocked when i say that it’s a little more about the reason is that i ask everybody, what will a friend do for you? You know, and friends to your cause will do everything in the world, including give money, and so maybe we do need to change our fund-raising in the friend making, because if you make friends out of your donors and bring them much more deeply into the cause and get them really involved, then they’ll stick with you for the long run, and we have a terrible problem in fund-raising ofwhat we call donorsearch trish in which is, of course, the fact that donors give once and then they slip away. Or give twice and they don’t stick around. I mean, do you know that the donor attrition and i do not know them, but before you, before you cite wth, um, i do know that it’s it costs a lot more time and money to find a new donor than it does to treat well and retain an existing donor. You know, i was reading some statistic. They said it was it cost ten times more to get a new donor or a new customer for business than it does to retain one of those attrition way halling statistic is that across the board, the probability that i will make a second gift, your organization, after i made the first one, is only fifty percent at really that’s the high fifty percent, really some other studies cited even lower than that. And so i would say that non-profits are failing miserably, a customer service and donorsearch so therefore maybe maybe maybe we do need to focus on our current donors and love him a lot and involving more daily rather than going out and beating our heads against the wall in the much harder work bringing and, of course, every organization is going to have their own statistic, which they certainly should be tracking their own their own donor, tricia, while they ought to be, i think, tracking their own donor attrition on dh if they find that number to be hi, that percentage to be hi. What? What can they be doing, teo? To reduce that to reduce the attrition? Got lots of things they could do you that wee hollow. How old movement in fund-raising called donor-centric fund-raising and that there was just a twitter chat on that topic that i was following a little while ago. Donor-centric fund-raising means that you are thinking about your donor rather than yourself all the time. And you communicate with your donor frequently with cheerful news about the results that you’ve achieved in the world with their gift. And you do everything you can to make the donor feel passionate and connected. You invite, um, two special things you send him special mailings. You you do not, uh, meaningful information about what you’re doing does not include a boring newsletter because studies show that most donors fund that non-profit newsletters are boring and they don’t read. Um and you know, somewhere some organizations have what they call a donor appreciation of the end if something signs boring that sign sporting, i’d rather go to a barbecue. Some eyes have to settle, celebrate the donors, but not to a donor appreciation of. So i think non-profits need to think a lot more entrepreneurially about what donorsearch customer service really looks like and be creative with whatever the organization does in terms of programming to bring violent, bring donors in so programming communications. Well, thankyou statistics show that the phone call thank you probably is the most powerful to keep a donor giving and connected, and i think one of the best ways well, i don’t know. Ah, great way for donors for board members to be involved. Eyes making those thank you calls. Absolutely. I have some clients who do that, others don’t but just a simple just called to say thank you not to ask for anything more, not even to invite you, but just to say thank you, right? And i’ll be. Burke is the great canadian researcher has done a study after study on the statistical results of what happens when boardmember say thank you and interfere, make a phone call to say thank you and hurt her very first study that she’s repeated over and over with many different sides organizations. Here’s the first study is amazing, she’s working with the canadian paraplegic association and they were doing a phone mail campaign all across canada, and the average gift of this campaign was twenty six dollars. And she did a test and had the board members make a thankyou phone call within twenty four hours after the gift was received to one out of every ten donors on that big campaign. So they they made their phone calls. The boardmember had a great time. They enjoyed it. It was theory well orchestrated. Five months later, they re solicited both group, the group that hadn’t gotten a phone call and the groups that had gotten a phone call. And so guess how much muchmore money? The people who were phone called game i don’t know, did a double thirty nine percent there, nine percent more from the ten percent so here’s proof that boardmember can directly impact the bottom line and fund-raising without having to ask for money, right? And that’s what we alluded to earlier it’s, not it’s. Not all about asking. Oh, and so that’s that’s what all of my message is all about? And i think border treats around the country, and i’m very popular with boards because i give them easy ways to make a difference and fund-raising that don’t involve asking, so they like me and also try to turn the retreat into a party and they like that. Yes, well, you’re very popular with tony martignetti non-profit radio, but we got to call you before i had announced the phone number to call. Well, i’ve been a little tweet out a minute ago, you know, thereby calling like that she’s tweeting while she’s talking to me on the phone. Now, what about that previous guest? I had alice march, the attention factor and that’s that’s not good practice norvig i’m sure you did it on a break. Did it break? But the number to call if you do want to talk to my guest. Gail perry is eight seven seven for eight xero for one, two zero, eight, seven, seven for eight xero for one to zero and gail is the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action. What else? Gail? Besides the simple and the thing that something that everybody would love to do besides those simple and pleasant, thank you phone calls, how else can we engage board members? That is not a direct solicitation. Well, one of the when i was writing my book, i interviewed a lot of the bank of directors, and one one person just said something so tellingly, she said, if i could just get my board members open doors, that that would make my make my life so much easier, but they are embarrassed about opening doors, and they think it’s all about money, and they won’t do it. And so let’s, let’s give some thought about how boardmember can open doors in a way that is easy for them and playful and fun and is like throwing all their friends onto the bandwagon rather than being stiff and awkward cause you know, i like i like the metaphor of a bandwagon latto boardmember that everybody they know, especially their family and close friends, needs to know that they are very excited about thiscause, and they spend a lot of time on this call, and i’ll tell, i’ll tell boardmember that, um, you know you’re familiar with the concept, of course, of barrel marketing and the notion that ideas are viruses and they spread and hotel boardmember they need to be sneakers everywhere they go, they need to be sneezing on everybody, you know, to spread a cunt contagious epidemic of happy news about the work that they’re organizations doing to make the world a different place, a better place. So that’s just asking them remember, laugh then light back-up thinking they understand the concept of sneezing on everybody, they know if they can do that, so we have to we have to in order to help them sneeze properly. The have found out that board members don’t know what to say. If you really think about the good book, they don’t know what to say and that even boardmember have come to me and they say for when i have a chance to talk to somebody what i talk about, wait before we talk about what it is you want them to say, who is that they should be talking to, well, sneezing on who they need every boardmember even if they say they don’t know any quote, wealthy people unquote, every boardmember has relationship that can help forward their organization, it might be with a church group or a club or a foundation or corporation or maybe they’re wealthy. And what about their co workers? Well, their coworkers too, although sometimes co workers, um, is your employee anyway, sometimes that can be a little touchy. However many businesses adopt causes for their employees to get involved in. Okay, that is part of a team building so it’s, very broad, mostly personal relationships, personal networks, and this is this is a country back-up all the social networks that any one person has. I mean, i’ve got my hairdresser, i’ve got my dry cleaner, you know, i’ve got my extended family, which is very large professional friends, social friends, you know, most of these people know that i’m wildly passionate about a couple of causes and that they’re always invited right now, your advice is your advice, gail is gail don’t matter that’s why they went down to a party it’s a matter of getting boardmember into a different spirit about their call, okay, but what should they be? What should they specific? Find a spirit of inviting people on a spirit of sneezing everywhere, talking about it and not being afraid or embarrassed about talking. And what should they be saying? Gale? What specifically? Well, you know, like the women’s center last night we talked about wait, we did a little bit of messaging, we did it, we did a mingle exercise, and i asked everybody in the room to get up out of his chair and find another boardmember and just tell him why they care so on, and we did that three different times, they find three different boardmember zor four different board members and just shared a conversation that while they cared, and so i think, what a boardmember should talk about it. Why think here about the organization? Because that is an impact statement it’s not specific, it usually doesn’t have programs and services and data, and it has an emotional story that comes from the heart. Give us an example of a statement like that. Well, i believe in the women’s center because alright, i’m involved this organization on the passion about, i think politics for hobby and it’s a pack and, you know, i’m a active democrat and also it’s all fundraisers to be active in. Any politically and either side, because it’s good it’s good, it helps your fund-raising at multiple levels, i’m passionate about the democratic collison selecting women office, and i just believe that when mohr women are in the general assembly of north carolina, we have better laws for children, for victims, for the environment, and women deserve the voice and they need the voice. And so that’s my personal opinion about why i think my organisation is important, okay? And so the women, they’re people, they could say, you know, i’m just so worried because these these homeless women and children are the most fragile people in our society, and they’re right in our backyard, and it breaks my heart to see him, and we really need help and it’s an ideal way of opening a conversation about the organization that you’re so passionate about and bringing more friends to it that’s the whole objective and you know it say, boardmember don’t have to have a big each prepared right. They can just talk about their own personal opinion about what’s important, and they could do that because they’re not going to forget that they might forget the mission statement in the three million marketing messages, but they’ll remember why they care, you know, what’s another way, way, actually, before we move on to the other additional ways, i do wantto put a disclaimer in that gale’s evidence of me. I mean, advice of sneezing is contrary to the centers for disease control recommendations that your sneeze into your elbow that is not. She does not want to seize a terrible shoretz you sneeze openly broadly, and the b aerosol ing your good message throughout the subways and your community do not sneeze into your elbow. Gail, how else again? Thiss to me, i think, is the crux of our whole conversation. Ways specific ways that board members can be engaged. That is not a solicitation. How else? Alright, now two of my favorite ways our host tours and host small social um, i think it’s just thinking your temple non-profit if every single boardmember hosted on event in their home just to introduce their friends to the cause no soliciting, just introduce. Um, just think what networks your organization would open forth for the future. Boardmember, for example, we had a new director of the carolina ballet here in north carolina and almost like a ballet boardmember and i had a porch party to invite introduce people to the new artistic director and it was way had about twenty people who came and forty people invited. And you have a very big porch. Yeah, well, having a big old southern front porch. I have a lot of parties here in new york city. We have a balcony. Party would be a boardmember in the executive director squeezed onto a balcony. It’s about fourteen inches wide deep. But that’s that’s only applies here. Wait. We have a national audience listening, right? Not your we certainly do. In fact, that i have a porch party really goes over well in texas and some of other places i worked. But from that porch party, the ballet got eventually a wonderful new boardmember and a major donor. And it was the first time these people had been introduced to the ballet and i the boardmember didn’t have to do anything. All i had to do was have a little party and tell everybody that needed to meet this hot new gun town. So it was very easy. And it was i wasn’t very one. Self conscious are anything. See, the problem is that boardmember think it’s all about money, they’re not going to do it because they’re energy’s gonna clam up, and they’re going to feel self conscious and awkward, and they’re going to back away it’s, not about money, it’s, about introductions, right? What about making friends? Because even if people can’t give, they may have other relationships they can offer that can open doors. And if you think about the vast possible network that your organization could make use of, its better it’s, good to think in a very broad picture. Yeah, we have to take a break. My guest is gail perry, the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action. Take this break, please stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s, aria finger do something that orc. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. 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Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Lively conversation, top trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m lawrence paige nani, author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. Gale, let’s, let’s. Spend our remaining minutes talking about let’s. Get at least just one more idea how boardmember is khun do something fund-raising related. That’s not a direct solicitation. Yeah, something else that i find very helpful. I call it the v i p prospect game. Always like to make everything into a game for boardmember because it’s sounds a little bit more interesting and fun. And you’re gonna explain what the viper prospect game is, right? Okay, no dark in jail today and here’s the but the issue i’m tackling is that board staff always asked the board over and over for names of people and everybody boardmember every boardmember starts to give ten names san and boardmember won’t do it because they don’t know what’s gonna happen to these people after they name has turned our turned him. So what i do as i tell everybody to take out a sheet of paper that they do not have to turn in and just think for a minute, see if they could make a list of up to ten people who could catapult your organization to a whole new level catapults. And i’m not talking about messing around. And on and then i’m quite i give about five minutes and our mind and that these three people could be representative corporations. They could be a state attorneys, they could be government agencies are elected officials, they could be individuals, corporations, foundations, united club social club um, and i try to broaden the basis for the board members to consider all the possibilities of relationships they have, they could catapult their organization, and so i give them practice, right, creating a prospect list and thinking about this without being self conscious, that they have to turn in the name, and then that step one step two is that i asked them to turn to the person next to them and just discuss one of the names on one of their lives. So what i’m doing that there is giving them practice losing from prospect identification to actually considering strategy and it’s, a low key, low pressure exercise that help support members, get them warmed up to the whole idea of thinking big, talking about specific individuals and then moving to strategy of how we can open the door and cultivate a deeper relationship with this entity or this person. And what i do after the exercises that i’ve tried to create a viper task force committee and of the board members to need after the retreat because we used to do this in a retreat for man meet after the retreat and come up with the prospect lift and the staff is going yes, thank you, thank you, thank you, because the staff has been trying to get the board members to do this forever, but the way they were being approached made the board members feel uncomfortable and the board members would back away. So again, you know, master, a playful, lighthearted approach to a topic that can be very scary for people has been helpful. Yeah, we just have about two minutes left. What about board members that aren’t going to jump on board with this? They’re they’re just so let’s call them just difficult board members, they’re not coming on board with these with these ideas. How do we manage those? Well, you know, i started managing my expectations. Um, i think it any board, you’re gonna have a handful of people who are dead weight and if you beat yourself up about trying to get these people at you’ll kill yourself. I just been tryingto tryto keep him quiet on and hope they don’t cause any disruption. And then i’ll pull out my term limits to make sure that we can rotate them off the board. Yes, written term limits, which also need to be enforced. Absolutely latto don’t. Okay, what if eso you you’re really so your advice is just bide your time until the term limit ends, and it could be in the beginning of their term? Well, you know, i think i have a friend who was is in the second director he when he had boardmember you weren’t showing up doing what they needed to do, he would go meet with him and he would say, you know, is there another way you would like to be involved with our organization or serve our cause? Because since you can’t quite do the boardmember job well and i say that, and he said they were relieved because they were feeling guilty. Yes, they felt guilty and didn’t want to let the organization down, and i thought that peer pressure is a huge motivational factor because nobody wants to look embarrassed in front. Of their peers. Everybody wants to do come to that board meeting prepared and having done their list that they said they would do so i find pierre pressure very, very helpful. And so you have to board meetings, have to praise the people who are performing, and you have to honor and recognize them. And i think i think it’s all about motivation and team building. Yeah, we have to leave it there. I’m sorry. Our time is up. My guest has been gail perry, consultant as president of gale perry associates and author of fired-up fund-raising published by widely available on amazon piela one. Thank you very much for being on the show. Thank you. Yeah. Remind people that my web site is gail perry dot com and their lots of articles on resource is there that you can? All right. Thank you very much. Ok, bye, gail. Next week, who needs campaign counsel? Peter panepento walks us through his report on self-funding campaigns. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. And by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we be e spelling dot com. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. Shows social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein, here with me next week for non-profit radio, big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great notice. I didn’t say crushing. Hey! What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. 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