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Nonprofit Radio for July 21, 2017: Look Good To Creditors & What Boards Get Wrong

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Paula Park: Look Good To Creditors

Loan? Credit line? Bond issue? Paula Park reveals how to impress creditors when you’re knocking on their door for money. She’s senior vice president at BankUnited.

 

 

 

Gene Takagi: What Boards Get Wrong

Gene Takagi

You may have heard rumors that your board isn’t perfect. We’ll run through the most glaring offenses you need to look out for. Gene Takagi is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent get excited for next week it’s our three hundred fiftieth show seventh anniversary i’ll say more in a few minutes and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into psych ataxia if i tried to focusing on the idea that you missed today’s show look good to creditors loan credit line bond issue pull a park reveals how to impress creditors lenders when you’re knocking on their door for money, she’s senior vice president at bank united and what boards get wrong? You may have heard rumors that you’re bored isn’t perfect. We’ll run through the most glaring offenses you need to look for. Jean takagi is our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group i’m tony take two, sixty nine and three fifty, but not four hundred nineteen. Responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com my pleasure to welcome first time guests to the show pullup park she’s. Senior vice president responsible for new business development in the non-profit hyre ed and healthcare sectors at bank united’s commercial banking she’s, a banking industry probono over twenty five years of experience focusing most of her career on the banking needs of tax exempt organizations before bank united, she was with wells fargo bank. You can email paula she’s offering her email. People are at bank united that dot com welcome polish pork high thank you. I’m very excited to be on the three hundred and forty nine forty nine that’s. Amazing, thank you very much. It’s almost set seven years called seven wow, seven years what’s one week between friends, right, seven years. Thank you very much. Um, yeah, i don’t know if i’ve had, uh i don’t know if we’ve had a bank around before. I think you might be our first banker. We’ve talked about financial things, but we’ve had, uh, more investment advisors you’ve had, you know, invite investors. We certainly had accountants on you. Might be the first banker zoho that’s. Exciting. Three forty nine. Right? Right. That’s like a low percentage. I feel i’m in the one percent you’re in the europe urine the point o o one. Yes. Okay, so we want to look good for creditors. White let’s. Just make something explicit. Just in case there are maybe or eggs that i haven’t thought about this. Why is it advantageous for them to borrow money? Well, you know, there’s. A lot of reasons for borrowing money. And first, i’d like to say that these air my opinions and up the opinions of my bank. Okay. Okay. Disclaimer. Thank you. So, you know, it helps you expand the reach of your own money. So not every organization can afford to do everything they need to do today. But, you know, do you have a long term risk repayment show source for a short term needs that’s a great reason to borrow. So you want an asset that will last you for the rest of your life. But you don’t have all the money today, okay? Like real estate. Like real estate. But you have the cash flow to support that. Maybe you want to think about borrowing, maybe it’s a great alternative to renting. Ah, and also non-profits use it to help them with their seasonality of their cash flows. Okay, that would be a credit line. Yes, and cried. Um, one of the purposes. Do you see clients coming to you for borrowing? Yeah. I mean, it’s, mostly capital and cash flow. Sometimes we bridge capitol campaigns. So again, back to this that, you know, you have pledges, but they’re going to come in over ten years. But you could buy that asset today if somebody will finance those pledges. Okay, so if there’s the right kind of documentation against those pledges, right? Like, if they’re biting their legally binding, right? I guess that would be part of your due diligence, and they allow lending. You have to let them, you know, they have to say in them that you could borrow against. Okay. All right. We’ll get to the details. All right. Cool. So so you have this future basically receivables? Yes. And you could borrow against them. And under the right terms? Yes. Okay. All right. All right. So it’s, mostly for assets and credit lines. Cash flow is mostly assets and cash flow. Okay, cool. Well, sam, just hand me the list of live listeners were bursting with live listeners who want to hear about looking good to creditors. Okay, we’ll get to the live. Listen, love that comes later. Okay. Okay. So, what should we think about before we approach a creditor lender and start an application or even to start inquiry? What do we need to have in line first? Yeah. I mean, i think you want to get your story together. You want to understand yourself and why you’re approaching them what you’re asking them for, you know, is there collateral? Can you offer collateral? You want to understand your own finances, and you have to be able to explain them to a bank in a way that they can understand wth? Um, okay, so we can’t just voice the whole bunch of documents on you and let you sort through it. Yeah, i know that’s an awful approach that does happen. And that tends to be the last thing you pick up. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t you throw a whole bunch of random things, really? Organize it. Think about your approach. Think about what you want to tell folks about yourself. Um, if you have a compelling story about yourself, tell it. And you have to be able to tell the story. Behind your numbers, because if you can’t tell it, nobody else can understand, okay, so you’re going to ask is this is this now is this? We’re like an initial phone call just like inquiry call i call up and say, you know, we’re thinking we have a cash flow issues, you know, we’re thinking of fifty thousand dollars credit line would be valuable for us, right? I could that would help us make payroll when you know things like that make our rent payments, et cetera, eyes this in an initial call, or do i need to have these things in line before i even call you and say, i’m thinking about doing this? Are you able to help? Yeah, i mean, i love asking questions, so don’t expect that the person on the other end of the line isn’t gonna have a ton of questions there are even in the usual cold, even in the initial call try to feel it out and see if it’s something you’re interested in or not, um and get an idea of what they’re looking for. Why, you know how they’re going to pay you back? That would be part of the initial conversation, because if it’s something you know you can’t help somebody with you don’t want to spend too much time on your trying to feel it our right. You’re beginning contrary, maybe the popular opinion. You’re not just throwing money at every organization that comes because you because it helps you make money, right know now you know. Okay. There’s due diligence. There’s a lot. I do know. How are you going to repay? All right. So how are we going to repay? I mean, if we need to borrow, how do we repay? Well, so, you know, there’s there’s. A couple of different ah, ways to do that. One is, obviously you have excess cash flow every year. So on a long term repayment, you know that extra hundred thousand dollars you have every year goes to pay the term long town. Okay. Okay. With, you know, with the capital campaign, you play it down, you pay it down, it’s the pledges come in and for lines it’s around your seasonality. So you know your your contract started. You perform the service now, it’s. Three months later. And you’re starting to get paid lines when i was in. College lines meant something different. I am not referring to the white lines now. No white lies a credit line. He’s a credit local. Just making sure. Yes, so would credit lines it’s based on your seasonality. So wants your money starts coming in from your government sources. You should be able to pay those back down, okay? Or maybe your donors, donors or your biggest and, you know, whatever that is. It’s it’s lines are meant to be drawn down and repaid and drawn down and repaid over the course of the year, and most of them have a thirty day cleanup. So you’re not supposed to use them for thirty consecutive days. Oh, meaning thirty days you’re supposed to be paid off within thirty days within it. Within thirty days of every year consecutively you have to pay a line of credit town. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, keep about my organization. Can’t keep a balance. No, the idea is to show us that we’re not your permanent working capital, that we’re just a temporary solution. Otherwise, that usually shows evidence of a larger problem. Yeah, because i say all right, right. If there’s always a balance, then the credit line isn’t the right vehicle for you, right? There’s always a balance because, yeah, you have a systemic issue usually. Ok, which is you’re you’re going to try to get at before issuing the line, right? I try to figure that out. First poker. Sometimes things aren’t as visible. Okay, we’re gonna talk about that. We’ll get more detail. Right? So we got we got to go away for our first break for a couple minutes, and then we come back. Of course, paul and i’m gonna keep talking about looking good to creditors. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy. Dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Uh, paula okay, um, so now we’ve progressed past. We’ve gotten past our initial inquiry call, okay? And we’re still viable. Yes, we haven’t. Slobbered we understand our financials. Oh, how would you want to see you? So when you say understand your financials on what you’re looking for, what kind of explanation? I mean, you know, numbers tell a story and what we want to hear the story behind the story. So we want to understand, you know, what you’re doing out there, you know, how you’re helping people, but also how your funding helping people, what your cash flow cycles like, you know, why you’re goingto borrow you know, you’re you’re building a new homeless shelter? Why do you need it for how many people are going to stay in there? How do you how are you going to pay it back? You know, um, you know, how do you budget? How do you work towards your budget? I the one of the my pet peeves is when somebody tells me they don’t track their budget, that scares me. Oh, that’s, terrible ally, i admit that. To a potential lender. Yeah, i’ve had that several time. We don’t track our budget. We don’t track to our budget and money. And yeah, we don’t do internal financial statements. We don’t track to our budget, right? That’s about that’s a bad sign? Yeah. That’s a that’s, a big red flag right there. It’s like, how do you know what you’re doing if you don’t keep track, right? Yeah. How do you know? How do we know we’re going to get paid back-up wi calendar if if you’re not if you’re operating from a budget. So at the end of the year, you figure out if you made it or not. Yeah, december thirty first. Yeah. Scary. Scary. It’s bad. We shouldn’t be operating that way, but that’s systemic. I mean, that there’s a there’s. A problem with board oversight there? Yes. What is not executing its fiduciary duty? Okay, i don’t know if jean takagi is listening, but he and i are gonna talk about some of the things boards get wrong. That’s one of them? Yeah. Okay, now. All right. So next step durney. What is the next? How would you define the next? So so what? I usually do is i gather financial data. So i asked for three years of audited financial state man’s your current year today how you’re tracking to your budget, you know, some sort of a numeric picture of how you’re going to pay me back. You know, what’s the funds flow if it’s aline what? Your cash flow cycle looks like that’s. Another red flag when somebody says, i don’t know what my cash flow cycle looks like. Um, you know, what’s your plan to pay me back to cash flow cycle well, that’s, your receivable cycle. So most organizations, especially government funded, have a very typical we know. Yes. Okay. All right. So we know, on the end of the quarter, we were very rich, and then we draw it down from the end of the quarter. Because our government pays us, the state sends me. It sends us to check every quarter, and that sustains us for the three months and right. And then we have other revenue sources, like events. And then we have individual donors account for right. Thirty percent of our revenue like that. I mean, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s it and you. Show me your cycle s i collectibe bunch of financial dad and then what i like to do is come visit, meet in person, see what you look like, see where you work here, what you sound like in person and, you know, asking a lot of questions and again have you tell me your story? How can we impress you now now you’re we’ve given the documents now coming on site, right? Right? How can we impress you so that you will give us the loan? Whatever it is that we’re that we’re looking for? Yeah, i mean, first of all, i always bring somebody with me and they’re usually the credit person, one of the credit people, so if you don’t impress them, does that mean they’re the ones who make the decision date? They either make the decision or influence the decision, okay? And you know, if they’re not impressed, that’s it but the end of the line and how to impress them. So you know again, you tell us your financial story. You tell us how you’re going to pay us back. You tell us about what you dio and how you do it. If you have a great program that you can show us that that’s going to really impress us. That always helps a lot. Ok, so show off our facility. Oh, yeah. Even if it’s not directly related to our loan. Yes, absolutely. Okay, you know, bring important people. Bring the cfo. Bring the executive director. Boardmember bring aboard matter-ness boardmember i love when they bring boardmember bring a boardmember show how committed everybody is, you know, talk about why they’re there and how much they love it. And, you know, it’s and the personal impression means a lot. You know, if you leave a meeting and you don’t trust the people you spoke with, they don’t sound articulate. They were confusing. You know, the chances of getting the loan get lower and lower. What about its summertime? Okay, if i show up at this meeting shorts and flip flops. Yeah, shorts and flip flops are a very bad idea. I’ve had it happen. Birkenstocks, you name it. Cut off jean shorts. You know the bank for god’s? Yeah. Think about your audience. You know, even if you have casual fridays, you should probably hold off on showing me your casual fridays until i know you better invite you for monday through thursday. Yeah. Invite me monday through thursday if you don’t want unless we’re doing a barbecue sacrifice your casual friday. Yeah, yeah, but don’t turn up in your casual friday close. I want to bring my credit people it doesn’t mean they’re in suits and dresses. Yeah, we just sweat it out and suits and you’re in your flip flops. They feel insulted. Okay, what else? Anything else? Tip of ways we can impress you. Tips inside of these the pro tips. I mean, you know, the pro tips. I guess one of the things we talked about was pricing hot off the show. But pricing bad banks, you know, come up with a score card on you. They basically take all your data and important into a financial model. And we come up with a risk rating for you and it’s. A number, man. Every bank has a different range, but the idea is the same. And and the number we come up with for you goes into usually some sort of a pricing model. And based on the number your price changes like there’s no, your interest rate. You interest rate, right. So the mohr um risk-alternatives and some of that’s quantitative. So you can’t really change that, it’s. Just a number driven there’s a portion that’s, qualitative and that’s. Where impression and how you sounded in how your story sounded. That all goes into the quantitative piece. Quality. Yes, qualitative piela that that moves your number around. What would you say that proportion is quantitative qualitative in deciding this risk rating? I mean, quantitative hyre okay, but sixty, forty years? Seventy, thirty, thirty percent. I can influence about a third that’s. A lot of my rate by putting on a good show having good present that making a good presentation, right? Right. I mean, there’s, nothing you khun dio, if your numbers are never going to work, there’s nothing you can do to change that. Okay, but if your numbers do work there’s a lot you could do to move, move it around and and put yourself in a different place. Okay, so, you know, i think that’s an important thing to consider is is what impression you’re leaving people with, you know, think about before you have before you call before you meet. What impression am i? Trying to give you what are some of the numbers that go into the these these? Yeah, that go into the risk lady. Yeah, s so what we do is we take your you typically it’s three years. We take your last three years of audits, and we lined them up against each other so we can look at trends. And we re like ratio analysis. We like, first of all, we do a percentage for everything. So revenues is, you know, made up of seventy percent this and ten percent bad expenses. We break every line item into a number and a percent. And then we blind him up so we can say things like, why did your program express spence? Increase relative to your revenue? Why was it twelve percent last year and this year, it’s? Thirty ah, wei take numbers and we pour them into a whole bunch of ratio analysis. Leverage is an important one. It’s basically debt to net assets. All right, we’re getting into jargon jail territory now? Yeah, you just defined leverage. That’s. Good it’s. A ratio of debt to net asset that to net assets. We look at liquidity numbers, which can be all different. It could be a gross numbers. Something like cash and i’m restricted investment. You can be a ratio like sabat current assets minus current liabilities. That could be current assets divided by current liabilities. So there’s a whole bunch of different numbers to look at. And then they think the most important one is debt service coverage ratio here in jargon. Jill. Yeah. Yeah, i know, but i can tell you thie d s c r the common. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, your operating access plus interest appreciation operating access that we have to find that. Alright. Wait. All right. So let’s, just leave it with dug a hole here. Alright, jargon, but you get me out. Get me out of this hole. I mean, this dark hole, all right, basically shows us how you can pay us back that we have the capacity to pay you back. Yeah, it has to be better than one. If you want more detail in that email. Female polar at people back tonight at dot com. Okay, i got out of that slow. Okay. So, what’s all right, so you’re going toe. You’re doing deep evaluation. This is your your due diligence, right? God, quantitative and qualitative. What are some red flags? That that, yeah, what is a red flag? Yeah. I mean, you know, you’re looking for big, big red flags are ah, negative net assets. So negative equity negative equity means you you own less than you owe you. Owe more than you. Everything, including our copier are if we owned property, whatever all our assets yet or less than our liability. Yeah. That’s, that’s a big no, no, but, you know, this debt service number we’re talking about is below weinger okay, skip over that. Okay? You’re okay, you’re below one the one that’s bad that’s bad. You’re operating continually at a loss like year after year after year after year here on it’s getting worse, okay, you know, so the trends are getting worse. You know that? The number that you’re looking at two pay your backs getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Right? So your risk the risk of this money that you’re going to be lending is rising and rising, right? What? It may just be so high that when that we can’t even help you. Right? Right. All right, red flags. Any other red flags? Birkenstocks, you’ve got a deal. Killer it’s not a deal killer. I’ve done, i’ve done deals for cookie people and strange outfits, but but there, but they paid more. They might have paid for that race probably were hyre yes, stocks, birkenstocks will cost you, you know? I mean, they’re they’re lovely, but not not, not when you’re meeting the credit people, right? And if you go out to meet with people and for burke, they don’t understand what they’re talking about and they can’t tell you why they’re expenses. Air hyre this year, and they don’t manage to a budget and you walk in and the ceiling’s falling down, you’re like, i don’t know if i want to do that. What if we’re lending for renovations because our ceiling is falling down? Well, that would be we’re borrowing. That would be a different story. But if this is like your not that, you know, your i’m in for working capital and you know, the book just fell on my head. I’m a little worried, okay? Yeah, but you have deeper issues beyond. Yeah, there’s more keeping your program’s going in. Your staff paid yes within which these programs and staff are residing is not stable, right? Your buildings falling apart. Yeah, this is fun. And you? Oh, well, let’s, get back to some of the fiduciary duties that the board should be overseeing. What if there’s excessive compensation, right? I mean, you know, there’s not a hard and fast rule for executive compensation. But i do think that if you see stuff that’s really out of the norm, it does raise a big red flag. And one time, for example, i was looking at the nine. Ninety of social service that their financial statement there ought. It looked a little odd, so i went to the nine. Ninety to see if i could dig a little deeper because there’s. A lot of information in there. And i found out thea president, ceo and cfo. Were husband, wife and son. Oh, no. The social service was it’s operating at a loss, but the three of them together made over two million dollars a year. And the headquarter hyre? Yeah, hop on. The headquarters was being rented from the president. Man, i didn’t do that loan, right? Yeah. That’s. Egregious. Yeah. That’s. Great. Where’s, the board i don’t know. And it’s it’s, you know, it’s, a founder run entity. So, yeah, that has to sell that story. Yeah, and i won’t tell you who but it’s when you know very marriage. One wife and son. Yeah, and the three of them are making two million dollars over that’s a lot for a social service. Especially one that’s operating at a deficit. Right? Him? Yeah. So, you know, i look for things like that. Google, sir. Oh, you mentioned. Oh, okay. You mention financial statements, flandez these come with a lot of footnotes? Yes. When i was in law school, i had a professor who he was so keen on the footnote being so important that the answer to an exam turned on whether you read the footnote or not. Yes, absolutely right or wrong in big way. Whether you if you didn’t read the footnotes. Footnotes i read, i actually i read the footnotes first before i even look at the financial numbers because their stories in there because that’s, the football i love the footnotes. Yeah, there’s. A lot of stuff in there. It’s. Very interesting. Um, all the good stuff’s in the footnotes if we’ve got stuff buried in the footnotes that we would rather you didn’t see? Should we just let you read it on your own? Or should we come out clean and say, you’re going to see cem, some improprieties or some, you’re going to see some red flags? Let me talk about these shoes. In other words, should we reveal it, or shall we leave it to you two? Maybe you won’t find it. Yeah, it’s always better off to come up front with things make cerini find it, maybe we find it and and you know what it is and and and if it’s on google, if i can google it, you have to tell me, because if it’s out there, i google search everybody everything yeah, bad press um and if it’s out there on google, everybody knows so china hide it it’s better to just tell you story a pride. It always sounds worse when you dig it up on your own. Absolutely well, that’s. Like being ten years old, it’s. Much better to go to mom and say you did something bad. Then have her discover that you fed the broccoli to your dog. Right? Right, it’s. A deal killer. When you find something on google and it’s egregious for me, it was liver, but i have cut it into little bits at a smother it with ketchup. I always say, if you covered cutting little bits and spread it around the plate, it looks like a lot less right, right. At least hide it under the mashed potatoes. Yeah, hide it or just diffuse it when it’s dense on the plate. That’s when? It’s scary, right? Just just last night, this came up, somebody cooked me liver, even smothered with onions. I just i’m not a liver fan myself, but you got to come clean. He gotta come tell up front. You know, we don’t like liver here in this organization, right? That’s, right? And we want you to know and here’s why? And here’s but here’s what we do instead we have other sources of iron right supplement. Wei have other sources of good protein. That’s right? We’ve finished. They were in vegan. They were even begin here. Yeah, there are good. So alright. Come clean. That’s. What you’re saying? Come clean. Dafs piela all right. Um anything else? All right, so now we’re getting to this, the evaluation, the number’s sounds like we’re just reduced to a bunch of spreadsheets cells, right. While we tell you story too, we tell you story and writing. Oh, so you tell us your story. We tell you, we tell our credit people your story. Okay. Okay. So are you? Basically is your role basically too be an advocate for the would you put it that way and advocate for the non-profit is that too strong of a navigator? As long as that they’re worth advocating for. Okay. Okay. Until they’re not your advocate until they’re not worth advocating for. Yes, absolutely. So you’re the liaison. I’m really a front face of the credit organization. Credit institution, bank united on dh. You’re working between the organization of the credit right in the middle person? Absolutely. I kind of represent both to each other. Anything else we can do to get the best rate possible? We just have, like, a minute and a half left. What could you d’oh? Besides, have great numbers tell you. Good story. Where the right clothes? Show me your show, mia programs. Okay, alright. Stuff recovered. Yeah, i can’t think of anything else in that case tell me why you love. You’ve been in banking and lending twenty for over twenty five years. Why do you love this work? Yeah, i mean, i’m here for the not-for-profits so i’ve always been a not for profit. I started lending to not-for-profits in nineteen, ninety and i’ve been hooked ever since. I love to be involved in the projects i love to be involved in the missions i love to meet the people i’ve set on board. I’ve done volunteer work. I’ve worked. It not-for-profits too and i just i just want to help the the not-for-profits helped the universe. Our cold is to go to that to go to the ribbon cutting oh, i love going to the river cutting that’s like your shining moment of glory when all the all that work you did paid off for everybody. Yeah, so that’s fun. We loved the ribbon cutting and we try to bring some of our bosses to the ribbon cuttings too, and let them see how great we are, where their money did something good for a change. Outstanding cool part. Thank you. Thank you. Ballpark. Senior vice president at bank united park at thank united dot com. Thank you again. Thank you so much. Jean takagi and what boards get wrong is coming up first pursuant they have ah, well, they have something, but you have seen a lot of midyear fund-raising reports now we’ve we’ve crossed june thirtieth and benchmarks being discussed everywhere, you know, whether you’re living up to what the community is doing or not, but one of the most important trends and how do you make the most of the best sense out of them for your organization? What if you’re not hitting the benchmarks that other people have created on dh? How do you keep rising above if you’re if you’re ahead? That’s what the next webinar comes in for from pursuant it’s, the state of fund-raising midyear checkpoint with ceo trent riker he’s going to be on the show next week for the three fifty and senior vice president jennifer abila they’re gonna help you push through your third and fourth quarters if you can’t make it live on july twenty fifth, watch archive either live or archive go to pursuing dot com click resource is then webinars. We’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers make millennial money that’s my own that’s my own alliteration that’s not there so don’t don’t blame alex queer. We’d be spelling for that, but listeners have been talking to alex. I know he’s the ceo there he’s also going to town next week and you could be next. You could be a b you could be you could be next. Look at this. What is brilliant mind since that what? You’re witnessing it at work right now. Um, b next, check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and then pick up the phone for pizza. Talk to alex and look, look what his number is. Nine to nine to two four bees. Okay, see, i’m not the only one now the time for tony’s. Take two. Sixty nine and three. Fifty. I’ve got a new video. Feels good in sixty nine. Get the filth out of your mind. Get it out! This is a family show. Although i don’t know anyone under twenty one. Why anyone under twenty would listen. But in fact, if you are under twenty one and you can prove it to me, i’ll make you listen for the week. Get me at tony martignetti sixty nine is a new position for me, it’s. Hard it’s a hard position. Watch the video and it will all become very clear. Next week is the three hundred fiftieth non-profit radio we’ve got all the regulars that iran, including jeanne kaguya, was coming on very shortly hyre meyerhoff she’s gonna be with me the ceo’s from pursuing and we’d be spelling live music with scott stein he’s going to play our theme song, of course, cheap red wine and another and we’ve got giveaways from pursuant and your coffee. How do you enter the wind post your most creative? Congrats on the three fiftieth use the hashtag non-profit radio three fifty post will pick the best ones those will be the winners here’s that hash tag non-profit radio three fifty you’ll find my sixty nine and three fifty videos at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two jean takagi. He, uh you know, he’s been listening to tony take two he’s been on for a couple minutes. You know who he is? He’s, the managing attorney of neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit law block dot com and he is the american bar association’s. Twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer you’ll find him at gee tak gt a k jean takagi. So great to have you back. Welcome back. Thanks, tony. Great to be back. My pleasure. We’re talking about some, um, some mistakes that boards make. What, uh, what brings this to your attention? Well, it’s been in the news a lot on dh governance on every level in every sphere of ah, our country has been coming to a lot of attention and whether things were done properly up on the top or not, um, has become a big issue, and i think there’s a common saying the tone is set at the top and the tone of proper governance on non-profit boards really sets the whole tone for the organization and when you don’t have boardmember that air prepared to set that right tone, there are there are problems that follows, and those are the things that get into the news, okay? And we were just touching on just a couple of those with with paula park a few minutes ago, some talking about some of the fiduciary issues fiduciary duties that board members might be ignoring if they’re if they’re not. Properly prepared for, you know ah, credit application sabat okay, but aside from that let’s, see, what would you like, tio? What would you like to start with you? Pick you pick somewhere. We got to get a bunch to go through. But you pick something to start. I feel like i always dictate to you. You choose. Okay. Let’s do allowing. No, i’m sorry. Go ahead. What would you like to do? Well, i could actually let’s start with sort of conflict of interest transactions and that’s where boardmember sze decide that they want to sell services to the non-profits on whose board they sit and, you know, some some sort of say, all of that should not be allowed. And with private foundations there’s ah, much stricter rule that prohibits most of those transactions. But with public charities, it’s usually not sort of absolutely prohibited in some cases, a conflict of interest times action is actually to the organization’s benefit. Like kinda boardmember says, you know, i’ll give you rent at half of the market rate on you. And you can use my my offices to run the organization. That might be a very good deal for a public charity, but where board get in trouble is where one member of the board says, well, you know, i’ll sell you these advertising services for the organization, and my usual rate is five hundred dollars an hour, but i’ll charge you four hundred dollars an hour, and maybe that is what you know that person’s rate is when they’re selling him tto fortune five hundred companies. But for this little one hundred thousand dollars a year non-profit a four hundred dollar an hour rate for advertising is probably excessive. And if the rest of the board just blindly goes along that’s as well he’s giving us a twenty percent discount let’s go with it that gets boards in trouble. Yeah, okay. Would that fall under that eyes that a conflict, conflict of interests? Yes. I mean, there may be several laws where it could be a problem, but on sort of the federal level on the federal tax level, along with being a five a one c three organization and the public charity, you’re not allowed to engage in on access, benefit transaction where somebody like a boardmember gets an excessive payment. And if that happens, what? The irs could do would say, hey, you know, that was excessive, really, nobody should be paying a charity this side should not be paying more than let’s say, two hundred dollars an hour for those services, so you were overcharging two hundred dollars per hour and what we’re going to make you do, as the irs says, we’re going to say you have to return that excessive portion back to the charity, and then on top of that, we’re going to charge you a tax for violating that rule, and that will be twenty five percent of the excessive amount that you charged. And if you don’t fix that within the tax year, we’re going to charge you a two hundred percent penalty under the mountain, all right away, if any boardmember approved that transaction and they knew or he really should have known it to be excessive, we’re going to hit them with a penalty as well. Oh, my goodness. Okay. And i think you and i have talked about this not recently, but xs benefit transactions. I think we’ve covered this. This yeah, and then very i love that you point out the possibility of individual fiduciary penalties and my saying individual money, penalties for the board members, personal penalties. Yeah, really, really rare. But, you know, if if boards look like they colluded, teo benefit one of their fellow board members and weren’t really looking after the best interests of the organization, they can be imposed. Okay, okay, let’s go to aa, not preventing misappropriation, our misuse of the of the ah, the money’s that come in or the other other assets of the organization. Yeah, i mean, that’s a great segue way because one misuses overpaying a boardmember really is overpaying anybody. So maybe you’ve got a friend. And, you know, that friend is offering this great deal to the organization according to your friend, but maybe it isn’t such a great deal. Or maybe it’s for services that the organization really doesn’t even need. So he’s saying, you know, i’ve got this great storage facility. You guys should rent it, and you know, i’ll give you this this great deal on it, and so the organization goes ahead on, rents it but actually never uses it because they never needed that storage facility. Well, that would be kind of a waste of assets and potentially, a diversion of those charitable assets to benefit somebody’s friend. And again that back and get people in a lot of trouble about cyber security risks what’s the board’s responsibility there? Yeah, cybersecurity czar really hot button issue right now and then we’re seeing it everywhere from, uh, people getting their social security numbers stolen or credit card number stolen and identity theft associated with that. So when non-profits are collecting what they call personally identifiable information information that can be associating with a specific individual, they’ve got certain rules that apply, and these are specific to the states. So there’s certain rules that apply that say, you’ve got to really maintain and protect this information, and if it gets out, if your sites that contain this information are breached and those things that released a lot of states say you’ve gotta notify the individual who’s data has been breached and taken so that they can take steps to protect themselves. So really big deal now you you will have already breached the law if you didn’t create secure systems preventing certain breeches and hackers from getting at that data. And if you fail to notify possibly donor’s information, for example, or some buyers of your services or goods? If you don’t notify them of that reaches well, you could be violating another law. So a lot going on there in cyber security. Actually, another really interesting one was recently there was some ransom where that that was came out and hit not only for-profit organizations but some non-profits is well and ransom. Where is basically where somebody hijacks your site and some of some of your site, maybe for processing donations or for selling goods and services. And so you really rely on having them up every day while the hacker takes over your site says unless you pay me let’s, say, you know, ten thousand dollars by tomorrow, i’m going to keep your site hacked and it may take you, you know, even with your experts a week, two weeks to recover it, and maybe you’re gonna lose a lot more money if you do that now, what do you do? Yeah, we just had that nationwide within about the past, not not not just nationwide internationally with in the past, what, six weeks or so? See, i think the wannacry ransomware i don’t know if it’s called a virus or something else. But yeah, it was widely prevalent in a lot of organizations, and organizations have to figure out how to deal with that and it’s best to figure those things out before it actually happens, rather than after the fact we just had a guest with in the past. I’d say that in the past two months, mark last night was shine mark shine. I think, talking about cyber security on how to ensure against it, the different policies that are available. Teo, to protect your organization in the event of a breach s so you could listen to you could look back at that it’s just with i’m sure it was mark shine just in the past couple months, okay, let’s. See, um, let’s. I do want to get teo another, another popular blawg, not not as popular as non-profit law block dot com, but we’ll we’ll give ellis card or a shout in a couple minutes. How about yeah, investments what’s the what? I don’t think you and i have talked about this one, the board’s responsibility around the investment policy statements of the organization? Sure. So, you know, even some smaller charities, you know, they got reserves and order some of them anyway. If they’re lucky, enoughto have not have to live sort of day by day, have some reserves on dh. They may want invest those reserves rather than just keep it in in a checking account, for example. And if you do have assets for investment was a charity. There are state laws that are associated with prudently investing those foreign investor axe. Yeah, on dh those are really important to pay attention to so some charities and some have come to us for service. You know, when when the market is it is it’s hot on the market has been pretty good lately, you know, they’re also served deals out there, and some are like going no, you know, we would like to invest all of our our money in this hedge, but, uh, and they may not even know what a hedge fund is. And i don’t know that anybody actually knows what a hedge fund is, because that covers so many different broad groups of investments, but they tend to be wildly speculative, meaning you could make a ton of money on them in a short period of time, and you can lose a lot of money in a very short period of time and that type of speculative investment making unless it’s part of like a prudent portfolio where maybe, like ten percent of your assets are devoted to those that are, you know, much more speculative, but ninety percent are in much more conservative investments can be a real breach if you put all your money’s in one basket, which it’s never good ideas, we’ve learned from our our parents or our kindergarten teachers. Um, you know, you’ve got to make sure that the portfolio of different investments you have is prudent, and so you’ve diversified your risks and not put it all in some wildly speculative investment, and that could be not only a breach of your fiduciary duty but reach a prudent investor rules and there’s a rule we don’t wantto get into jargon jail, you’re always about the impression that the acronym uniforms prudent management. Of institutional funds act, and it says that you have to look at different concerns when you’re investing on dh. It really talks about conservative investing in a portfolio with an eye on what your mission is as well. Gene, just give that acronym and what it stands for again, please, i talked over you sure upmifa upm i f a, the uniform, prudent management of institutional funds act. If you google upmifa and your state, you’ll find what the law is, and i think that’s in forty nine states, i think maybe pennsylvania’s the outline, hold on. All right, all right, thank you. I’ll try teo, keep my tongue civil from here on, but all right, let’s, go out for our break. When we come back, i’ve got live. Listen, love a ton, and we’ll give a shout out to another law block that you might be interested in state with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests are there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. Krauz hyre hopes could be with us next week for the three hundred fiftieth show as well. Jean takagi, listen, let’s, do the live listener love because we’re bursting here. Tampa, florida bronx, new york and if we got all five boroughs, we got multiple manhattan. We got bronx. We got staten island. Um, we have brooklyn where’s, queens, queens. Let us down. All right. We got four out of five and multiple said, multiple manhattan, woodbridge, new jersey. That’s not far. Laura, laura, laura, belinda, california live listen and love to all of you, but also to torrington, connecticut. I’ve been to torrington, that’s, a nice little town. I did some consulting there. Uh, social service agency. Torrington. And you have that that renovated theater right in downtown. I love that’s, very pretty. Minneapolis minnesota lives their love to you also new bern, north carolina and midlothian, virginia. Midlothian, midlothian live listen love. However you pronounce it let’s, go abroad. Not too many people abroad, nobody, nobody in asia, nobody at all in asia. This, i think, is the first show where there’s, nobody from asia. Wow. Okay, uh, they’ll be back. Uk? We can’t we can’t we see uk, united kingdom so we don’t know whether it’s whales or ireland or scotland or england we don’t know well, you’re in the uk so we always give always give you know you got to do the you got to recognize that there’s more than one country in the united kingdom, please and germany, good talk, live listen love all our livelong sinners on dh so of course, on the heels of that has got to be the podcast pleasantries because we’ve got over twelve thousand podcast listeners in the time shift. Thank you. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners, never forgetting them. And then, of course, the affiliate affections to our am and fm stations throughout the country. And by the way, i have four new stations to introduce next week on the three, fiftieth four brand new stations joining us throughout the country from new york, colorado to washington. I think porter stations but for the current stations listening today affections to our am and fm listeners. Thanks so much for being with us, everyone. Thank you, jean. Thank you for that indulgence. You know the thanks that you know the gratitude has got to go out, right? You know that? Absolutely. Thank you. Um okay. So let’s give a little shout out to ah, another. Another non-profit attorney ellis carter. She she she curates the charity lawyer blawg, cherry lawyer block. And you know, ellis carter. I did turn and she’s a wonderful person and a great attorney. Alice and i have had a chance to speak together and work together on the few occasions you’ve worked together too. Cool. All right. So on her block post going back, i think it’s two thousand nine there was one of her earlier poster, if not her very first post. She links to you while she mentions a bunch of your problem ideas. And i want to give a shout out to your block. Of course. Non-profit non-profit law block dot com where listeners can check out all your list of all ten because you did a post for this show, which actually you do that every week, which i always appreciate every time you’re on, you do opposed. So if you want to see the full list of jeans, go to non-profit loblaw dot com. But ellis carter has charity lawyer blawg and she’s got a couple on there. That i want to talk about, like micro managing staff are you are you comfortable talking about ellis carter’s board governance mistakes? Yeah, absolutely actually give credit to her. She came up with a list of ten, and then i just added a few more to to her list, and so she recaptured all fifteen together on her block, but she was the one who came up with micro managing staff and it’s a really important one because i think he probably seen it as well. Tony, where board members start to get involved and then go around the executive director and start to give directions to the staff. Yes, i have and creates all kinds of political trouble and reporting line trouble and yeah, yeah, but, you know, part of that can be the responsibility of the ceo to and blurring lines and, you know, having boardmember do things that maybe you’re not appropriate, like, you know, day to day tasks and things. Yeah, and so, you know, oftentimes when you, this is a kind of a growing pain for some non-profits as well, because when you’re on all volunteer non-profit organization, it is where the board members involved. With everything as well and and managing volunteers in that case. But once you start to grow up a little and have staff and haven’t executive director, the board members have to know to pull back and, you know, for one thing, boardmember should know that individually they have no inherent authority to do anything. They don’t have the authority to manage staff it’s only collectively as a board where they have authority officers like your executive director or your ceo perhaps might have the authority to give limited direction to the staff to ceo would obviously have have the ultimate authority there with respect to the staff, but just knowing where your boundaries are, it’s really important and from a liability standpoint, board members, if they start to mismanage, that could get hit with unemployment claim, which really makes up, i believe more than ninety percent of all directors and officers insurance claims our employment related and if they’re directed against boardmember themselves, and if you don’t have dino insurance boy, that that could be a huge problem for individual boardmember so they really have to be careful of that. Another one on ellis’s list is airing disagreements outside the board room and that reminds me of the very timely, like complaining about your attorney general to the new york times as an example, it just happened today airing disagreements outside the boardroom what’s the trouble there? Yeah, and obviously as a non-profit when you’re taking positions, you wantto have one position that you’re setting out to the public you don’t wantto have ah, divided ah statement that you’re giving to a public where some persons involved with the organization are on one side of an issue when other persons are other side of an issue and it looks to the public that the organization is poorly governed, poorly managed, and can’t even make up its mind on what its messages and therefore could jeopardize support. So aaron aaron, you know your disagreements outside of the boardroom, a really big problem for the organization in terms of its, you know, public relations, but also a huge, huge problem for the boards themselves because, you know, tony, if you and i were on the board together and we had a disagreement over a key issue on dh, we got a chance to discuss it, of course, when we go out you know, even if i may have disagreed with you and, you know, your side won, i’m going to be supportive of that. I might not say very much about it, but i’m definitely not going to say, well, i, you know, in in public that i disagreed with it because what happens if i start doing that is i’m a chill further board discussions, you know, if you don’t kick me out of the board for doing that, the board might find itself very, very leery of, you know, raising controversial points because you got this one person who’s going to be a blabber mouth and start teo, reframe everything and criticize you personally outside of the organization, a really big problem. The place for the robust discussion and disagreements is within the confines of the board meeting and maybe discussions that take place in committee or or even know our board members having back channel communications right privately on the phone or email, but publicly wait, where were we? Face-to-face we present one face yeah, and this along with your duty of loyalty to the organization as well, you’re supposed to act as a board member in the best interest of the organization. Not in your personal best interests. All right? Yeah. You don’t want to hurt the organization by by airing your grievances outside. Thank you very much. Looking forward to talking to you next week on the three. Fifty of jean? Yeah, i’m really looking forward to three. Fifty congratulations. Thank you so much, jane takagi you’ll find him at non-profit law block dot com and at g tak gt a k next week three fifty three five oh, how many times i have to say it, make sure you enter to win our giveaways post your most creative congrats with the hashtag non-profit medio three fifty can’t wait for that great fun! If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com we’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com our creative producers climb hyre half sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez and this fantastic cool music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and degree. Sametz buy-in what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for May 19, 2017: Healthcare Funding Options & Leadership Options

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Chris Labbate: Healthcare Funding Options

You have options today! First, Chris Labbate walks us through fully insured; self funded; level funding & minimum premium, so you understand your choices paying for your employees’ health insurance. Chris is with Marsh & McLennan Agency.

 

 

Gene Takagi: Leadership Options

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Then, we talk leadership options with Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group. Co-CEOs anyone? How about holacracy?

 


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Oh, hi there. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host this is show number three hundred forty, the three hundred fiftieth non-profit radio is going to be coming up it’s on july twenty eighth, three fifty music comedy special news i hope you’ll be with me for three fifty i’m sending spies special a pre show special live listener love to the fans of crystal a bat this insurance guy has a big fan base that this guy’s, a rock star who sells insurance live listener love to chris’s special live listeners, and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with my own militia if you try to soften me up with the idea that you missed today’s show health care funding options today is options day first, kriss la bat walks us through fully insured self-funding level funding and minimum premium. So you understand your choice is paying for your employees health insurance chris’s with marsh and mclennan agency and shared leadership options. We talked leadership options with jean takagi are legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group co ceos. Anyone? How about holacracy shared leadership on tony’s? Take two. My finger is still wagging, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We be e spelling dot com for all his fans. And, of course, for everyone else. Here is crystal bat with health care funding options. My privilege to welcome chris lay back to the studio as regional executive vice president at marshall mclennan agency, chris is an authority on employee benefits, including customer driven health plans and alternative funding. He shares his expertise and twenty eight years of industry experience to help you see how innovative employee benefits and hr programs can lower your costs. The company is at mm a hyphen and e dot com crystal bat. Welcome to studio. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here. I’m glad you are. Thank you. Read your colleague last week. Mark. So you’re going to shine like mark shine did yes, i know you’re up to it. All right? So we are we’re talking about funding funding options for employee health. Let’s, let’s reassure listeners first, this is not going to be impacted by health care reform that may come or is not going to be impacted seriously, right? Yes, that’s that’s correct? Most likely, the funding options will stay the same. Okay? Because we really can’t predict what’s coming out of congress, but we don’t expect the general ideas around funding that you and i are going to talk about to be impact. Correct, okay. Right? We don’t make the show irrelevant in two weeks after. Okay. All right, so it turns out you don’t have to fully fund. I mean, i think probably the majority are ah, now i know you do have some stats, actually, but i’m thinking small and midsize non-profits probably most of them are just osili insured, fully insured, really insured plan. Correct, but you have options. Correct. So? So in a fully insured plan, you’re just paying a fixed monthly rate that the insurance carrier sets for your organization and if its profitable to them it’s profitable them. If it’s not profitable, they’re taking on the all the risk skin and losing out. Yeah, okay. They probably don’t lose out too often, though. I’m guessing they might lose one year, but they’re probably gonna lose two years in a row over the long term state business. They have to make profit. Okay. Exactly. All right, so i think pretty. Yeah. People are pretty accustomed to that. The fully fully insured and ah it’s easy it’s level payment, i mean, and you know exactly what to expect. Her employees have a set of benefits and it’s all easily defined and of course, insurance, company’s, managing it right. So we’re just talking about the financing of the benefit plans, right? So that’s, often transparent to the employees, don’t get involved with that. So the employer is just paying the fixed costs, and they’re all there are alternatives to the fully insured, called self-funding, which can be explored for more, most organizations, five employees on up. Ok, so even for the smallest organization, correct benny on the state. But, yes, okay, okay, cool. S so this is going to be impacted by state law. Also, correct, yes, all right. Um now, if we are, if we are self-funding then we’re taking on some risk, correct, you’re taking on a portion of the claims risk so that portion you’re going to fund as the claims come in, but what’s often misunderstood about self-funding is that there are insured components built into self-funding so it may not be at the same level that you have. You’re fully insured, fixed rate, right? But you do have insurance components to protect you. Two different suits to specific types. There’s ones called specific insurance to protect you against any one person having a claim over a certain amount. Okay, you decide is the employer and you purchased that coverage of twenty five thousand fifty thousand. If a claim hits that level, the insurance kicks in, and then the second is called aggregate insurance, which is protection that your total claims that going don’t go over certain amount. Okay? All right, so i got you. I got you so you can. There are some. Yes, there are some insurance protections built into self-funding. All right, now you do have some stats about, um um about what? What? The percentages are around. Who’s self-funding. And how it’s. Been changing since nineteen, ninety nine like percentage self-funding vs versus the full, fully, fully insured thank you write. So especially since health care reform has has kicked in there’s been a movement towards self-funding on dh that basically is benefiting employer groups that have a favorable risk of benefits around the country. They’re showing. About sixty one percent of covered workers that have health insurance through their employer are covered under some form of a self-funding plan. Yeah, well, okay, so almost two thirds correct under some form of self self-funding and that’s changed from nineteen, ninety nine that was forty four percent correct. A big change. Okay, okay, um, so if we’re if we’re going to consider this self-funding option, there are some different kinds of costs that we need to be aware of, correct. Right now, we’re just like we have about two minutes before break. So why don’t you just kind of tease out the idea of these different kinds of costs we have to be aware of? And then you’re not going to more detail. Perfect after right after that. So in general there’s, two categories of cost, you have your fixed costs that you’re paying on a monthly basis and you have your variable costs will be, which will be your claims costs as they come in. Ok, fixed, invariable. All right, we’re going to dive into that a little more. We take our break a minute and a half earlier, so and then kristen are going to keep talking, finding out what your options are around, maybe self-funding all are a part of your employee health stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent with chris sabat when we’re talking about funding options for your employee health now, christine, you do not have lots of letters after your name. Last week we had i says that mention mark your colleague market lots of letters especially easy, like sees after name there’s all your where’s, all your credentials, they’re all just built into yourself. Yes. You know, i’ve been in industry since eighty nine, and i have my master’s in finance and marketing. I’m just really the experience in the industry on the benefits side. Okay, okay. Your bona fide? Yes. Okay. Okay. All right. So let’s. Now, zai promised diving a little more on these. Some of these costs that you have to think about taking on if you were goingto fundez self-funding fixed costs like like what? Like what? So the first fixed costs you would have is your cost to administer the plan. And typically you’re hiring an insurance carrier or a company. It looks like an insurance carrier called a third party administrator to perform all the tasks that that insurance carrier would under a fully insured plan. So paying claims customer service id cards for employees booklets. So from the employees perspective, if they don’t know what the funding is, it looks and feels like a fully insured plan to them. There’s no difference. Okay, so you’re outsourcing this administrative work. Exactly. No need for you to hire people to be doing this for you. Exactly. Cos that’ll do it for you. Yes, at a fraction of the cost of a fully insured plan. Okay. Okay. Um and the what? What else? Fixed costs. There’s this ways that now we now we get into some of the insurance coverage mentioned earlier, protecting us against a really unhealthy employer employee or or or or or aggregate. Go ahead. Absolutely. So so most companies that self-funding will have two types of insurance associated with their plan and their purchasing this protection. And the first is called specific insurance protection against anyone large claim going over a predetermined amount. And as the employees you, you picked that amount, whether it’s twenty five thousand, fifty thousand and as that amount goes up, the premium associating it kind of goes down exactly. Okay? And the second type of coverage is called aggregate insurance. And that’s protection that your total paid claims will not exceed a certain amount. Okay. And that’s, very inexpensive coverage. All right. And so these air part of your fixed costs that you’re going to be absorbing? Yes, if you’re if you’re exploring self-funding, you’ll get a monthly bill with your admin costs and your stoploss costs all printed out per employee, just like you get a fully insured premium bill. Okay, okay. On. And then you had the variable costs, which is basically what you’re going to be paying out for doctor visits. Right, etcetera. That right. Exactly. So the variable cost will be the claim’s paid out for your employee population covered under the plan. And in general, when you’re purchasing your stoploss insurance, the underwriter at the stoploss carrier will determine what they expect. Your claims to be given your employee population and then they’ll determine a maximum exposure. So if your claims go above this maximum amount, the insurance will kick in and cover it. Okay, that maximum exposure is usually set ten to twenty percent higher than your expected claims for your popular do-it-yourself kush. Exactly. Okay, exactly. Now, what about reserves in all this? I mean, if we’re going to be doing that, we have to have money set aside for the payment of claim. Exact. Exactly. So when you first go into self-funding plan in the first few months, you typically will not see any paid claims. Somebody goes to a doctor today. It doesn’t get reported two to three weeks from now when it gets paid. Okay, so there’s a cash flow advantage upfront going into a self funded plan, but on the back and if you ever terminate a self-funding plan, there’ll be claims coming into the third party administrator or the carrier that need to be paid based on service states prior to when you terminated, right? Right. That’s called run out or term a terminal liability. Okay, yeah, while you were self-funding toe at the end mean, you benefited in the beginning, right at the end. Claims are still going to be coming in as you exact your i guess. Or now fully insured. And you ended your your self-funding crackers. But but so that has to be a reserve fund, right? Don’t law must require something like you’ve gotta have ah dedicated account or something with the money. For the old yes, so typically a joint bank account set up with the third party administrator there paying claims out of this account when you had that crash flow advantage at the beginning of the program when your first during out self-funding we recommend that you just bank that money and that’s setting up the reserves for the event if it ever happens where you cancel the self-funding plan, okay? And how about knowing? Oh, well, i guess that goes into your expected cost. Me knowing how much to put into this reserve correcting for for a decent sized organization, i don’t know, like ten employees, i mean, could conceivably be half a million dollars or something. I mean, i’m just numbers don’t stop my head, right? You’re going to be more precise, you’re probably gonna say, well, it’s gonna depend on age, right and correct help histories, etcetera and it’s broken out by the underwriters on a monthly basis. So, you know, so when you get your stoploss coverage, they’ll give you a claims factor per employee per month. And that is how you calculate the number of employees times that claims factor gives you your exposure for the expected exclaims focus and that’s the amount that’s got to go in this dedicated reserve for typically yes, now you can’t you can’t be using this money for other purposes correct it, sze designated restricted or something for the self-funding plan? Yes, it should be air marks for the self-funding plants. He had the money available to pay their letting your employees down your absolute, obviously seriously. Okay. Okay. We don’t want people run operating that. Okay, um all right. So we’re talking a lot about self-funding what are what are some of the reasons you that non-profit might actually think about doing it? There’s some advantages? Yeah. There’s some big advantage associate with self-funding the first is there are a bunch of hidden taxes and fully insured plan. So under health care reform, there’s four four and a half percent in taxes that get attacked right onto a fully insured great. Okay, now, health care reform. Today on the day now, we’re recording couple weeks earlier, then this is going to air. So health care reform by that you mean the affordable care act? Correct? Or obamacare? Correct. Okay, not something that may be happening in congress in april of this year in may of this year is that right? That’s correct. So in the affordable care act, there’s a tax on non-profits that are any fully insured krauz any fully insured plan has attacks built into it that gets funded, the funds go right towards offsetting the cost of the affordable care act. Was it attacks on the amount of premium? You correct? Oh, interesting. Okay, right. Forty five percent you sent were correct and there’s also in some states and local taxes that get applied to fully insured plans. So when your self-funding you’re circumventing the state rules and some of these fully insured taxes at a federal level, yeah. Okay. All right. This one advantage. All right? What else are there? Other reasons it we have? Ah, younger, healthier group. You’re going to benefit because you’re paid claims will be much lower then expected or similar to expected. And then you’re paying less than you would under a fully insured plan now wouldn’t and ensure offering full insurance? Wouldn’t they be factoring in that you have a younger, healthier workforce. So health care reform change some of the factors that go in. They do account. For age coverage, tear with a single or family coverage if you’re a smoker or a nonsmoker, but generally you’re paid claims in a small group will not count towards calculating your rate. Wait a minute, we better impact that statement. Hold on, you’re paid claims in a given group will not will not what? I came here if you’re unaffiliated, if you’re in a fully insurance plan small group market? Yes, your claims do not drive your rates typically. Oh, they don’t correct because it’s the law of large numbers, they’re playing, they’re not going to base your rates on your claims. If you’re five people or ten people that’s what healthcare form actually did away with to try to stabilize the small group market just like those of us who are individuals, we go to the exchanges. It’s my premium is not at all based on my history could i mean, i think they might have asked if i’m a smoker. But that’s all yes, that’s one of the factors taken you okay? So we’re getting very small. So that’s at one end of the spectrum, tiny individual. I see what you’re saying. They’re all right there it applies to small groups as well. So i’ll give an example of you if you’re in a fully insured plan, you’re paying fixed rate every month and say your premium comes to one hundred thousand dollars a year. Okay, now, if you wanna self-funding plan, you’re paying your fixed costs, which might be twenty or thirty thousand will estimate and then there’s seventy thousand and projected claims what your claims only coming at ten thousand, you’re only paying ten thousand wonderful insure plan you pay the full hundred thousand still alright, so there’s an opportunity here for a new organization to engage in employee health, health, health and wellness, right? Yes, if you’re going to go fully every, i’m sorry if you’re goingto self-funding you can enjoy some benefits of every every, every two weeks, we have a five k run or, you know, whatever i say, right? I mean it’s perfect segway twenty foot that one of the next advantages. If you have an active wellness program where you’re engaging your employees and getting healthy, that can parlay into fewer claims and under self-funding plan, you benefit directly from that you’re not paying out claims on un employees that don’t go to the doctor. Okay? What size organization do we have to be? Or was it eliminated completely under affordable care act, where they would start looking at our claims history and our wellness programs? If we were going fully insured so it vary state by state eso it khun b fifty employees, one hundred employees and and more. All right, you have to be that size for them to start factoring in your individual act. Your program’s done. But i mean, you could have, like, smoking cessation. You could have, i don’t know. Organization provided fitbits and everybody’s got eight or ten thousand step daily minimum, right? You can have all kinds of programs to try to save yourself. Money. Those air, those air common wellness programs. There’s not innovative thinking, innovative now company and fried. It provided fifty. Now they’re doing that. Yes. Alright. I thought maybe i had some some great insights. Okay, um all right. So i just happened to be a big wellness fan so you could save some money if you doing self insurance. Self-funding self-funding i should say on and there’s a couple there’s. A couple more advantages. Get more transparency. You see, you’re paid claims were under fully insured arrangement. You typically do not especially smaller employers, so you don’t get to see the claims them all employers typically, we’ll not see their claims history because they’re not allowed or that usually carrier policy not to give out paid claims to smaller employers, especially if they’re rates aren’t dictated by plane. So that gives you the ability to better budget for future costs because you have all the information and it helps you design with plan design. So if you know people are over using the emergency room, you might up the co pan the emergency room copay and you might lower the copay on your urgent care centers or tele medicine to try to drive people with lower cost setting. Yes. Okay, so you could drive some behaviors. Okay. I could see that there’s one last one. It gives you the ability to not have to include state mandated benefits in your plan. And that’s, a big benefit for companies who have people across state lines because they can provide one seamless plan designed for all their employees. You say companies. But we non-profit organizations exactly. All right. So different. States have different mandated benefits, correct packages? Correct. Okay, i saw a bit of a little i mean, this is kind of interesting, well, privacy issue coming out of what you were just saying, if you’re self-funding you’re able to see claims history now you know who the unhealthy people are, right? Who’s got bad behaviors, etcetera mean, who wrecked a lot of so the reporting khun b done where’s d identified which just means you’re seeing general information, but it is if you have a smaller the company, you might be able to identify who those people are. S o typically you would want tohave an internal privacy policy, which which follows the hip national privacy standards with a privacy officer and a policy in place to protect that information and only have certain people buy-in certain people given access to the information within your organization. Ok, ok, that actually dovetails with what? What mark and i talked about last week levels of compartmentalization correct categorization, i believe he called. Okay, um, who typically would be looking at this data if we’re going self-funding who looks at this on a monthly basis so typically be somebody in hr maybe. Something in finance and it’s almost it’s, almost always d identified so you know, you’re not going to know who the people are, but they’re looking at it, just seeing what claims were being paid out and budget and future years, and then also the behaviours trying toe like you said, friends instance, if we see emergency rooms being overused, correct plan design, and then we could also just have meetings about listen, people, you know, you’re hurting our you’re hurting the organization by using the as your primary care or something like that, you know, you’re hurting. We’re trying to stay self-funding for for the these reasons because we think it’s better for you then than being fully insured. But you’re making it hard for us to do so right? Get a primary care physician. Yeah, you can have meetings about the right can you talk about? You can talk about that, you can have any things. And you, khun target wellness programs like you reference if you see your population has a history of high blood pressure or a lot of smokers, you can use that information to taylor educational program. Bring people in current, bring people in to talk about hypertension. Manage? Absolutely. Okay. Diabetic diabetes management? Yes. If people are having a lot of diabetes related issues. Okay. Okay. All right. So we still have some time left. What? My voice just cracked still. What? What happened? I asked you what else? What else could we talk about? Some of the some of the negatives with self-funding. So if you’re moving to a self funded arrangement, you have the variable cash outlay potential. So one month your claims can be very favorable. The next month you can have high claims. You do have those reinsurance caps built in protection. Stoploss is you’ve already examined all the jargon. I got tongue now, stoploss but you can still have some variants and some come organisations prefer the fixed costs associated with a fully insured plan. You know what you’re paying your budget for it and that’s your costs for the year where self-funding can vary over the course of twelve months. Okay, um, how does it work? This is a very basic question. But if you if you are self-funding, how does it work in terms of a network of hospitals and doctors? Have you that’s? Good cause. You choose what providers are available to your employees. So when when you hire the third party administrator or insurance carrier to administer the plan there, providing that service for you so you can hire a big insurance company and use their network, you’re renting their network to access those discounts. That’s part of the administrative fees it gets broken out into network rental fee utilization management, he gets into a very a lot, a lot of details broken out, focus. Okay, well, because you can use somebody’s network and not be insured by the exactly you’re taking the risk, you’re just using them to administer the plan. Roger. Okay, i say interesting. Okay, um, what else? We still got a few minutes left, so that zoho your disadvantages of having any of that was that was one big one. The other one is if you ever want to get out of self-funding you have that terminal liability. So if you say i’m canceling my self-funding plan today, you’ll have a couple months of claims to pay out. Still for claims that were incurred prior to your cancellation date. And at the same time, if you’re signing up for a fully insured plan, you’re paying the fully insured rates so it’s like a double payment for a few months to get out of this self-funding plan. I got to get to cool things. I got terminal liability and stoploss yes was going around saying, you sound like a genius, alright stoploss german labbate that’s a term reliability problem on dh that i could touch on to two other quick thing before you do, though dahna the terminal liability i mean, could that could that go on for years? I mean, suppose someone made a claim while you were still self-funding and then they continue to have related issues to that claim like so i don’t know what a surgery that went bad or something, and then years later, they’re still having, like following surgeries to that infection from when you were self-funding what good question so it’s driven by the nhk earl date of the claim? So if i go to a doctor today and i’m self-funding today, it gets paid dahna self-funding plan for that same condition if i go to the doctor next month and next month i’m under a fully insured plan gets paid by the flame. Shirt plan. Oh, so the general liabilities just the run out. They call it from the from the self-funding period when people went to the doctor during that plan here. All right, so it’s not considered like a pre existing condition. Correct? Where the now insurance company, because you’re fully insured kicks is going is going to kick it back to you from what? Your self-funding days doesn’t work like that. Correct? It does not. Does not. Okay. Okay. All right. That’s, some reliability thisyou xero everywhere you’re in our daily lives. Term liability stoploss okay, what else you got? I could do real quickly to other hybrid type products between fully insured and self-funding. So you have some combination once called level funding, and this gives you the fixed costs of a fully insured plan where you paint a rate every month for employees. But at the end of the year, if your claims are favorable, there’s the potential to get a refund of a portion of the terrible claims. Oh, so you benefit if if claims air. Good. Act. Okay. And if claims are are not good. You’ve paid your rate for the year and you walk away. Okay, well, that’s, because you have what you want had some stoploss coverage it’s all built into, like, a fully insured rate. So you have that fixed rate, and then if your claims are favorable there’s something called a settlement done at the end of the year, you know, if you would get money back, but there’s no potential. The additional dellaccio more correct. Okay. And then you have you said in which another hybrid? Yeah. There’s there’s one more call the minimum premium arrangement. And this is sort of like a fully insured rate, but you’re carving out the claims part of it and your funding the claims as they actually come in. So similar to level funded. But you don’t have the wait till the end of the year to get the benefit of favorable claim get, like month the month? Correct. Exactly. Well, okay, so there’s. A lot of issues to think about, and i guess way just have, like, a minute and a half left or so, but i guess this all comes down to risk tolerance. Exactly. Do you do? Do you want to just write off the wrist completely and give it to an insurance company? Or would you like to get some of the benefits of doing it yourself and maybe even having healthier employees? But you’re taking on some of that risk. Correct your risk tolerance and your ability to handle some cash flow changes from one month the month with self-funding and it really comes down to analyzing what would my costs be under a fully sure plan. Total costs. What may cost being herself funded plan at the maximum claims that’s where the stoploss carrier says you would not pay more than that. Yes, you’re a total costs on. Then what would your cost be under the expected where they expect your claims to be? Given your employee population and looking at those numbers will give you a good feel for where he should be. Okay. All right. Crystal bat. Andi. I demoted him because he’s, a crystal bat is a regional executive vice president at marshall mclennan agency. Okay. I wanna thank you very much, chris. Thank you. Tony called my pleasure. Coming up. We have jean takagi and shared leadership options. More options for you first. Pursuant, they’ve got a new webinar. Big surprise. It’s free designing experiences. That inspired donorsearch every brand elicits a feeling, you know this like think disney, starbucks, united airlines and each of your donors has an impression of your organization based on their experience and interactions with you with your brand. On thursday, may twenty fifth, you can join lutheran, our ministries, brad never ary and pursuance senior vice president hillary noon and learn how to create immersive experiences that inspire greater engagement from your donors and potential donors. Brad is going to share how lutheran our explored the journey of a key audience identified opportunities to improve on their experience with his brand, and they put in practice places that are goingto make measurable impact trying to make change. Of course, this will be archived if you can’t make the live session, but if you can, you register at pursuant dot com quick resource is and then webinars we’ll be spelling who needs to engage millennials? Maybe you’re bored has raised that as ah as a possibility or a need. Do you feel it’s important for your sustainability? Perhaps what you waiting for? We be spelling dotcom get started for pete’s sake. Hosta fund-raising spelling bee. This is not your seventh. Grade spelling bee. You know this. Check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and then talk to the ceo alex career. Set something up or just get more information. We be e spelling dot com. Now, time for tony’s. Take two. That damn finger is wagging again. 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Woodridge in new jersey, swan’s borrow north carolina, new york, new york and brooklyn. New york really got two out of three borrows this week last week. Course we had all five. But brooklyn. I’m glad you’re with us. Manhattan. Thank you so much, but gives he with that westchester that’s. Not bad. North of the city. Poughkeepsie live. Listen, i’d love to you also, white plains neighbors in westchester live. Listen level so to newjersey caldwell, new jersey, hackensack, new jersey. Still no altum pandu jersey, where my mom and dad are sitting right now. Uh, moving ah! Moving way down south san marcos, texas live. Listen, love out to you, san marcos on then coming back to the northeast, stratford, connecticut were all over except on the west coast. I know what west coast person who’s listening but he’s on the line so it doesn’t count. Not this week. And let’s do germany got to live listeners in germany? We cannot see your they’re so concerned about privacy in europe we cannot see your cities in germany nonetheless live. Listen, love guten tag the podcast pleasantries. They got to go, you know that you’re tired of me saying it, but i’m not going to stop the podcast. Pleasantries have to go out to the over twelve thousand, listening in that method pleasantries to you. Thank you for being with us on your schedule on demand, and the affiliate affections were looking to grow that affiliate list. Our outreach director, belly, betty mcardle belly. No, she’s. Not ever. Billy. Betty mcardle is working on that. But for the effect for the affiliate stations that exist right now. Of course i am. And fm stations affections to you. So glad that you’re station includes us on your schedule. Thank you. Jean takagi is with us waiting patiently. He’s the one i was alluding to, um and he is the managing attorney of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit low block dot com and he’s the american bar association’s twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer he’s at g tack on twitter and i believe he’s calling from an airport. Welcome back, jean takagi. Hi, tony. How are you? I’m very good. Very well, are you, in fact, in an airport? Is that what happened? I’m now at an airport hotel. A little bit better. Okay, where are you? What city you’re in? I’m in los angeles, los angeles. So that’s not far from you for san francisco. Okay. Okay. S a little background noise. I kind of like that. Mixes things up a little bit. Um, if anybody gets difficult while you’re on the phone, you know if you have to drop the phone, you know, and fight somebody off, just explain what you’re doing first before you just dropped the phone. Okay, i’ll make sure i hold them off, ok? All right, well, do what you have to do but inform me first that’s the first your safety is secondary to informing me that’s what? I’m that’s basically, what i’m saying, it makes understood, ok, thank you very much for that. So we’re talking about some shared leadership options. Um what? What brought this to your attention? You know, shared leadership has kind of been a little bit of a hot button issue recently amongst non-profits that are thinking of more equitable practices and in attracting younger people. Millennials, you might refer to the you know, to that group and say that they may not be is ingrained with the hierarchical structure that those of our generation tony, maybe comfortable within used to, and they’re really wanting tio have more of a say early on in their careers, so, you know, shared leadership issues, all sorts of forms are really starting tio to take hold in some practice on dh starting t gain in more popularity so are you seeing this? I guess mostly then in organisations where the leadership is thirtysomething or so well, you’re seeing it from from a lot of younger people, for sure. So living in the san francisco bay area in with silicon valley nearby, and this is not just a non-profit management or organizational structure, this is started in the for-profit world in this sort of spread into some non-profits but yeah, it’s a lot of younger tech companies, like suppose that that sort of kicked it, kicked it off some of experimented with it and left it like medium, but one of my organization that i’m on the board of a compass point non-profit services also experimented with holacracy and while it isn’t continuing in a whole keeping the whole model, we’re keeping aspect of it because you feel it’s really valuable. Okay, now i’m not going to put you in jargon jail because i know we are going to talk about holacracy but you just try to slide by me, and i want you to know that i’m quicker than you. So i i noted it, but you’re you’re you’re pardoned thiss time because where i know we’re going to talk about holacracy alright, so so sort of following from what you’re suggesting i can see the advantages there’s empowerment, there’s, there’s, there’s shared, there’s shared buy-in and empowerment of others. Yeah, and i think that works for leadership development with the team more people having more voices, teo impact what’s happening with the organization, what they’re doing, they become more interested in it that probably helps in recruitment and retention. It helps internal communication and collaboration, and it i think, necessitates cross training because you’re talking and trying to understand what your little part of the organization, how it may impact every other part of your if you’re one of the decision makers, are you’re making decisions as a group? You got to know the other three other parts of the the organization how your decisions are going to impact them. Yeah, i can see that this is not something you embark on overnight, right? Especially in the need for cross training and understanding. What’s going on across the crust of our organization for the thing people are going to be sharing in leadership now. Yeah, absolutely. The other, you know, benefit that has some people. Have been writing about it lately than it actually helps facilitate and succession planning. So we have more people who maybe pull, you know, in the pool of candidates to take over for for a ceo or an executive director. That maybe leaving the organization? Yes. Okay, that’s a good one, right succession plan. We’ve talked about that. Uh, ok, alright. See cem value. Um, but i see some potential downsides to this is going to be a lot more cumbersome for decision making. Yeah. I mean, you can imagine when you have too many chefs in the kitchen. I guess it is the metaphor analogy that people make on dh. So yeah, definitely neo-sage delayed decision making and that khun delay implementation of ideas. So you’re kind of the slow ship that takes forever to turn around. It can result in inefficiencies, and then you may lose opportunities, not acting’s. Quick enough cause confusion at the start. A cz you’re trying to figure out, you know, who’s accountable. How how do we, you know, make a decision? What if we’re split for? For what? If we start tio a form cliques within our organization and then we start to battle or engage in disputes with other factions of the organization. So their their potential bound falls that you have to actually really account for careful. Yeah, potential for open conflict. I mean, one of the things we’re going to talk about his co ceos and, ah, i mean, if the two people don’t agree. I don’t know. Yeah, get factions and jesus, you could start running like our white house. I don’t know. Okay, we’re gonna get to co ceos. All right, um, let’s. See? Well, we may as well go there. Um, what air you saying? Have you seen this? Have you have you seen this one in practice, where there were two ceos? Maybe any of your clients execute this? I mean, i’m just i’m just wondering if you’ve seen it firsthand co ceos, yeah, way have so definitely on. And i think this is actually becoming more of a trend, and i’ve seen it more in the nonprofit sector have limited exposure to for-profit sense since since i left that that world but i think you know, times are getting much more complicated. Management has also become much, much more complicated with, you know, technology changes non-profits are exploring earned income and advocacy and collaborations and employees laws are changing and then non-profit corporate and tax laws are ever changing, and right now there there’s some big, big changes that are planned, of course, on dh. So with all of that complexity, can one person really be the leader through the organization understand all of those those factors and be ableto lead the organization through all of it and that’s kind of why there’s been a little bit of a draw forming co ceos and succession planning is the other thing is, i think there’s supposed to be a huge turnover of executive lake leadership is the baby boomers are starting to age out of their employment, and they’re starting to retire on dh succession is, uh, is a problem if we don’t have adequately trained and experienced people in those roles, and coke co ceo platform’s can really help ease that problem. Ok, but with with all those issues that you mentioned for leaders to deal with, i’m not even sure that to people with their combined skills could manage, you know, can understand all that in the level of depth that that’s necessary. I don’t know, i’m not even sure two people could do it, so yeah, ee don’t know that i’ve ever seen three tio, no, but i’m just wondering if if i’m not sure to really adds that in my sense of it, too doesn’t really add that much more value. You could say it doubles, but i’m not even sure that’s enough, so if if i’m right, then why not just stick with one who has a strong team of people directly reporting to him or her it’s an interesting argument, tony, and indefinitely the single ceo structure is the one that were more comfortable with and probably the one that’s going to teach comin in for a long time still. But first, for some organizations, experimenting with two ceo structures can work out. And i think where we’ve seen this practically is where the two leaders share kind of a long term relationship, so they’ve already comfortable with how they work on dh, how they would make decisions together hyre the areas of responsibility, maybe divided so that one person has final decision making over these fears of the operation and the other one over other spheres, and sometimes, you know, in a very simplistic way, some people just refer to it is the internal management and the external management. Yeah, okay, some of that makes me makes me think of mika brzezinski and joe scarborough. I don’t know, okay, all right, let’s go out for a break and when we come back, jean, i’m going to keep talking about the shared leadership options. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they only levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy, tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m peter shankman, author of zombie loyalists, and you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent um, jean, i’m thinking this is goingto take some time to to implement and, uh, before you start to reap benefits from it, if you if you do it’s not you, you’re not going to see this immediately. The advantages? Yeah, you know, i think it’s going to take an investment on depending upon what level of shared leadership you’re talking about co ceos is probably the a fairly simple level, relatively speaking of shared leadership, but yeah, it’s going to require an investment, it may take a failure, teo, actually get it going the way you want it. So there’s definitely a lot of learning. It relies on it, you know, having a shared vision and common values amongst the shared leaders on if you don’t have that established, you really shouldn’t do this. You have to be careful of the amount of money, time and other resource is that you’re going to have to invest because that’s all got to be budgeted in if you don’t incubated and invested and nurture it, it means it’s probably not going to work. We’re also gonna need a lot. Of patients among our staff. Yeah, yeah, i think that’s absolutely, absolutely right. You run the risk of having that go to mom, go to pop kind of run things, right? Good cop, bad cop. Yes, right. Somebody’s, thie other ones said this, but i said no. So i’m coming to you, right? Right? You got to beat that stuff down. All right? Interesting let’s go to one that i want to make sure we spend enough time on this. To me, it sounds like anarchy, but you’ve said your organization you’re on the board of is doing some of this. The pro you call it program autonomy is what is that? So the general idea and they’re different forms of this, but this this is on the other end of the spectrum of complexity. So this is a complex form of shared leadership where each program or each division oven organization is fairly autonomous, so doesn’t all rely upon going to the ceo on the ceo makes the final decision. Each group within the organization which might be divided into programs, will make their own decisions now don’t know, probably be working with the budget that’s been approved by the board on then segregated out into the different programs. So they know what the operating rules are within within their group. But figuring out how to distribute the leadership and that’s the one of the buzzwords, sum, sum. Avoiding drug in jail again, it’s. Really just distributing the leadership amongst the different programs or the different groups within the organization and there’s. One particular type of model that i mentioned earlier, which i should have waited until we got to this segment. That’s called holacracy on dh. That is a particular form of distributed leadership, where the different groups that that are taking on these local decision making authority rolls are called circles. No, james, no, jane. Yeah. Can you still hear me? Yes, i hear you. Okay, last thing we heard you say was holacracy is made up of circles, but you need to explain. Yeah, so you know, generally the way holacracy works is so it’s a form of program autonomy, although again, the circles or self managed groups don’t necessarily have to be divided into a program that could be divided into function. So there might be one for fund-raising for service delivery, for grants, for events, for public communications. So however, you decide you want to divide up the circles, it’s going to be an iterative process where you’re always modifying it. So every month you’re going to consider whether you should have the same circles or different circles, and each individual is actually going to take a role with multiple circles, and in some cases they’ll be the leader of a circle that’s going to help decision making and help facilitate that circle or that group of individuals within that circle to make a decision. And in other circles they may not be see that that leader on dh, so they’ll just be part of the group that makes the decision making, and they might be on three or four, five circles depending upon what their skills are. All right, this is anarchy to me, but you’re saying it works a compass point, it weaves we’ve tried it for maybe a year and a half, and we’ve decided to modify it so we’re keeping aspects of it. But we’re not keeping the whole thing, so you’re anarchists of anarchy. You can’t even follow the anarchic model of program autonomy. Okay, well non-profits pride themselves on their ability to experiment and hopefully do yes, alright, yeah. So who is but who’s orchestrating the overall? I mean, there’s got to be, doesn’t there? Well, i’m i’m answering my question, but better ask it as a question, doesn’t there need to be one or maybe two people if the co ceos overseeing the coordination of all these pola craddick circles yeah, there, you know, so it’s it’s, largely governed by two principles, one is you’ve got the law on the latto has the board of directors on top of the organizational hierarchy and does require a ceo in most states, or or a president that that’s going to be ultimately in. Charge however, they’re going to be a set of rules and systems, and this has to be very transparent and holacracy so you’re not leaving everybody to go. I don’t know who to go, teo, you know, maybe i’ll ask this person so in holacracy there’s a large set of rules that everybody knows and everybody has to abide by, including the ceo and that’s where how the different relationships between the circles are all codified and how the decision making goes from one circle to another. But ultimately again, it would be a non non-profit corporations you have a board of directors and ceo have to oversee the whole thing and can decide how to modify accordingly. Okay, maybe something for listeners toe look at program autonomy, let’s say i wanted to jump to the most complex one because i want to make sure enough time sometimes our talk at the end, our topics at the end get cut off a little bit. I don’t want that to happen with program autonomy and the holacracy pola craddick circles still feels very crystal lee to me, i don’t know dahna all right, let’s, go to we just have about two. Minutes left explain how the ceo and the board might be the leadership share well for small organizations that particularly all volunteer organizations it’s usually all hands on deck, right? The board is completely active in running the programs of the organization as well as just doing their regular board duty. So, you know, you got the ceo because somebody has to be ceo of a corporation that might be called president or chair of the board, but somebody has got to be identified in that way, and what their decision making authority is going to be will depend upon what the board wants to give to that position, but board make decisions board takes actions on lee at meetings or by written consent, so whenever individuals are actually running programs, they’re not running them as board members. They’re running them of volunteers with certain delegated authority. And what the board has to really be careful of is that they’re making sure that they’re delegating authority for somebody to run an event or somebody to run a specific program there delegating with due care, meaning that they’re not quitting somebody who would be totally unqualified and in experience latto lead. Something of importance to the organization because if it is, gets into trouble, you know, the board could be held for violating the produce very duty’s not exercising reasonable care in making that delegation, and they can’t just say, well, that was another board members, i couldn’t tell them what to do. That’s not the case. Yeah, yeah. Ok, i see. I see i see a greater responsibility and risk for for the board under this one, but it makes sense. I mean, they’re taking a more active role in the leadership of the organization. That’s, right? So that’s, that’s very much shared leadership where all board members see themselves as equal, but when they’re exercising roles that are different from meeting at boards and taking actions like approving contracts are approving, you know, the by-laws there acting as volunteers, so they have to realize that they’re wearing a different hat and the authority has to be properly delegated. We’re gonna leave it there. Jim takagi from ah hotel in los angeles managing attorney of neo and you’ll find him at g tak neos, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group. Thanks so much, gene. Thanks. Have a great day. I pleasure. Thank you. Next week, diane lettered returns with your grants team in and out. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we b e spelling, dot com, our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this cool music is by scots. Time you with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s, not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for February 24, 2017: Your Online Approach Plan & Crowdfunding Law

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Tulani Elisa, Amanda Heidtke & Dottie Hodges: Your Online Approach Plan

Tulani Elisa, Amanda Heidtke & Dottie Hodges
Tulani Elisa, Amanda Heidtke & Dottie Hodges at NTC

If you want to reach and engage effectively online, you have to plan. What’s the leadership role? How do you get buy-in? What about those who stray from your agreed goals? Tulani Elisa is with Threespot. Dottie Hodges and Amanda Heidtke are from Hodges Consulting. We talked at the 2014 Nonprofit Technology Conference. (Originally aired September 12, 2014)

 

 

 

Gene Takagi: Crowdfunding Law

If you’re raising money on one of these sites, do you need to register under state solicitation laws? Is it OK to give a gift in exchange for the donation? Can you raise money for an individual? Lots of issues for you, explained by our crack legal contributor, Gene Takagi, principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host we have a new affiliate station w m n b one oh, seven point one north adams, massachusetts hello northwest mass the call letters stand for western mass northern berkshire. You don’t see that very much with koehler’s actually stand for something, and they these call that it belonged to the original am station in north adams going back to nineteen forty seven what the world was like then non-profit airs tuesdays at nine a m w m n b welcome to the non-profit radio community. So glad to have you with us so glad, in fact, that i’d suffer the embarrassment of knocked old human yuria. If you let me down with the idea that you missed today’s show you’re online approach plan. If you want to reach and engage effectively online, you have to plan what’s the leadership role. How do you get buy-in? What about those who stray from your agreed goals? Tulani elisa is with threespot daddy hodges and amanda heidtke e r from hodges consulting. We talked at the twenty fourteen non-profit technology. Conference and this originally aired september twelfth, twenty fourteen and crowdfunding law, if you’re raising money on one of these sites, do you need to register under state solicitation laws? Is it okay to give a gift in exchange for the donations? Can you raise money for an individual? Lots of issues for you, explained by our crack legal contributor, jean takagi principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group i told you, take two sincerity and my hair. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here’s a panel of three smart ladies on your online approach plan. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen we’re at the marriott hotel, the marriott wardman hotel in washington, d c and with me now are tulani elisa, daddy hodges and amanda heidtke e tulani is social media manager for threespot daddy hodges is president of hodges consulting and amanda high key is director of digital strategy at hodges consulting. Welcome, ladies have all three of you your your workshop topic. His strategy is not a four letter word how setting a plan for your online approach reaps rewards tulani let’s still you’re closest to me let’s start what what do you, uh, at threespot? What do you think? Some of the shortcomings are that not necessarily at threespot, but that that non-profits generally are not strategic enough about what should they be doing? A lot better? You think so at threespot we design websites and make social media strategies analytic strategies in digital strategies for non-profits for ngos, for government organizations. So that’s what we deal with all the time. Ah, a lot of the time, what happens is non-profits think we need to do social and then they don’t think we should happen approach. We should make sure to go about it the right way. We should do some pre planning, they just kind of want to get into the space because it’s so fast moving fast paced on, always changing. So a lot of what kind of we are going to be talking about her panel is really you know how a digital strategy could play out things like social media? Eah, or website design or any kind of approach that you have online. So a lot of times, it’s the kind of leap without really knowing what snacks in. So we want to talk about what you do before you leave. Daddy. I imagine you see much the same thing at hodges consulting. We do. And you know, i think tulani is reference to what we call shiny object syndrome is one of the biggest players. Also kind of the collective sense of, you know, we’re looking at things from a organizations perspective. You know, our program work our mission. How were structured as an organization, the content we produce. But we find increasingly organizations need a little help and seeing it from sort of an outside perspective in terms of who are we trying to reach you? Our target audience is what are they looking for? And then what do we want them to do? What’s what? The engagement components that we want them to accomplish. And so having that sort of step back first really helped productive strategy gain results in the end, that shiny object syndrome you mentioned. What are some of those shiny objects that you see, clients? Reaching for you name a twitter blogger, we would read it. I mean, just last twenty sites. Yeah, we want this amazing he website that does everything from soup to nuts and really what they want to do is find out what that target audiences that will reach their mission will reach and do that thing, not try to be everybody’s everything not trying to be the website that gets thie program directors needs met the executive director’s needs met the needs of the membership services department, but rather figure out what the organization’s mission is and how they can leverage that website or that social media project and used it to get that message out, which is what the audience wants, not necessarily with the organization thinks s so we should be thinking about what our constituents are on doll in all their different varieties what their needs are everybody everybody’s nodding? Yeah, definitely really important for organizations to stop thinking like organizations and more like their constituents and and thinking about what they want to hear and the people that are looking at there. So so the media pages or their blogger, their website and what really connect. With them. And you can do that easily through doing audience research through, you know, going through and seeing you know what posts and what content is really working, resonating with people. What are they engaging with and and what’s not working? And how do we change that? And you can also really look at the landscape and look at your peers and say, okay, what are they doing that we’re not doing that’s working, you know, and it’s? So much of it is really, you know, taking what you see with your own stuff, taking what you see from people that have the, you know, the best in class work and saying, ok, this is working for them. How can we, you know, do that for our own selves? Actually could even go so far as to be sharing their content that you see doing well. Let’s, let’s give a shout out to our our colleagues over at whatever the other organization is that for? For sharing this mean, or, you know, whatever exactly it could be sharing content on dh using, you know, third party content is always a good way. Teo, you know, get people to show. That you’re a thought leader, and to show that you’re someone that really, you know, knows what’s going on because you’re observing other people in the space and it’s also a good way, you know, most people that are in design and articulation, you know, you’re stealing from everywhere, you know, and and then you’re you’re making that into something that works for you and that’s, okay? Because what you’re doing is is kind of making, showing that you understand what’s happening because you’re actually going back, creating your strategy and saying, oh, they did this, how can we work that into our goal of, you know, fund-raising how can we work that to our goal of awareness? So really, you know, yes, very party content, but also really using those things up for your own and making that your own as well to fit into your strategy? Okay, daddy, how are we going to get started in being more strategic and invoking the bomb? I’ll tell you what, it’s, not for start there. Uh, it’s, not panic. It’s, not panic central and i think a lot of organizations look at the different challenges or the different needs or perceived needs of the organization and and have a little bit of that panic moment. How do we start? How do we begin to know what to do? First, what tactic to pursue and so are you approach essentially is to say, we’re going to take a step back and look across the organization collectively, this is the key word right and agree upon what our goals and objectives are as an organization are our priorities to dr membership, which is okay, you know, let’s agree that that’s call it what it is and agree that that’s the case, is it advocacy, direct actions or some combination and getting everyone collectively to head nod in the same direction about those goals and objectives to then say, okay for that objective, let’s look at our audiences and do the research tulani is talking about to then roll out, and we could talk a little bit more the later stages, but i want to actually have a man to talk a little bit about, you know, sort of getting those heads nodding in the right direction and how that happened. Well, now, that’s the critical piece, okay, i know you’re president of hodges. Consulting, but i’m the host of tony martignetti you do what you like way are going to get that because actually i want to deal with the how twos we don’t want only be at the theoretical devil, right? But i do want to ask you a question about leadership if we’re going to get all these people seated around the table and ultimately, which could be a bit of a process like, but ultimately agreeing, we’re gonna have to have leadership heimans buy-in to this to this process, absolutely leadership engagement is critical, and that might be at the executive director level. It might even be the board involvement in some cases, depending on how the organization works but making sure that there’s a team assembled. We call it a core team that is generally a smaller group that has the authority and autonomy to drive the process because we want leadership engage, but we also don’t want leadership to get so involved in the granular pieces, let’s say we move forward with a website redesign, and we’re talking about those very particular components. We want that core team that have the authority to move the project forward and then engage others in the organization as appropriate, you know, external audience research, whatever it is, but that engagement of the leadership, the organization is critical to move the project forward and what’s also important with leadership. A lot of times you’ll see it’s that non-profit is really getting them to buy into that strategy like you were saying, so having them understand, you know, this strategy is going to help us reach this goal or this is, you know, this is what the r o is going to be. This is the return on investment that we’re going to get out of doing this out of, you know, making our website better or having a blogger doing that kind of thing and then showing them those results afterwards. So a really important part is to set metrics and to have analytics and to say, you know, we want to do this. We don’t want to put out this picture just hits a pretty picture of something we want to do this because we know this picture is going to get a decent amount of shares that’s goingto connect to more people, that’s going to get us more donations, so so really, like daddy was saying not being too granular, but showing them the bigger picture of, you know, here’s what we can get out of this, you know? And i would add it’s not even just getting their buy-in but it’s getting them to stay focused on what the goal of the project is, whether it’s a website redesign or a social media campaign, having served for eight years as the director of online operations, that trout unlimited, which is a large, large non-profit that has chapters and councils all across the country as well as the national office, and they all want to work in concert together and leverage digital media, getting everyone in the room together to pick a few key goals and then too, pursue a project with that premise so that every decision that you make along the way happens with the vision of these are the goals were trying to meet. And when you’re making a decision along the way, it has to meet that metric and that goal because it’s, very easy for non-profits internally, too have shiny object syndrome, but past that, too also change their mind midstream mid project about what? The goal of it is about it’s, horrible and it’s rampant. I find that having worked on the other side of the table worked for a nonprofit for so long, it was very hard to keep everybody who needed to be have that by and focused along the way as to what the end goal really is. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast after the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way so before we even get to what? What? What daddy was urging. I turned you to turn to you for and we will. We’ll suggesting it was it was an admonition. It was actually morning on admonishing me. I i that’s how i took it. He’s always talking about i am a leo. Ok, i see. I see my perception was not unbiased. On based what? Okay, so before we get to that, but what? What do you do when the cats start to stray and different different or teams within the organization start? Tio dahna convert the goal. Onda work. You know, i think converting the goal in the work actually is okay. As long as everyone is going to agree at the same time that the kitten, the herd of kittens, is moving in a show and it’s all justifiable on organizational basis across all departments, not just from our perspective in our department. Absolute. What do you do when somebody starts to stray? Well, well, i love having the key mission, and i love having the metric decision. So one of my favorite components of any strategic task is to have the metrics by which you’re going to gauge if it’s being successful and that does help keep the organization on task, because if you’re all looking to get the same piece of data and the same result, what the result is from it, you can kind of keep people focused on heading down that path. The trick comes in when your goals aren’t clear enoughto have a metric to follow it up by, and so making sure that your goals are very your tactics have very specific goals and that the actions you’re going to take to reach those goals are very well defined and that’s the strategy that a lot of non-profits don’t they? Don’ts don’t put their heads around what those tasks and components look like and understanding what those are before you dive down into a any project is critical to the success of that project. Give me an example of what you just said take it from from your own background or ah hodges, consulting client, whichever you like. Sure so from my own background, trying limited recently did a very large website redesign and by large, i mean, they scrapped the old site and started afresh on dh, perhaps the best. Example i have of that is the decision that was the website school going to be specific to growing the membership? Or was the websites gold going to be specific to growing? Engagement? Peer-to-peer engagement and the gold changed throughout the life of the project. So as a website redesign was commencing, the goals went from, are we going to simply grow our membership uses to drive increased donations through a membership drive to you know, really, what we actually want to do is create this peer-to-peer network of of people across the country who are engaged in our mission and offer them a place to do that electronically, digitally, through a website. And so it was a subtle shift in focus. Now, ultimately, i believe the organization was it was right, because the by creating that peer-to-peer network, you will in fact grow the membership it’s a different timeline, the tactics that you would take to grow the membership if that was simply your sole goal, are much different than the tactics we would take if your goal is to create a social network on buildup. Peer-to-peer right? And, you know, you kind of also asked a kind of not give credit, but understand that things in the digital, especially social media but all digital space are changing so much and so quickly, and people are doing so many different things that situations where people lose track of what their goal was or what they were going towards can happen so quickly, you know, you see a competitor, you see someone that, you know, your organs, they should admires, and they’re doing something that wasn’t in your strategy and you’re like, well, maybe we should be doing that, or maybe, you know, and everyone gets that not just the pang of envy, but that paying of, like, we’re missing out, we should be doing this, we’re behind where this and that’s, what the digital space kind of makes you feel like and so, as amanda was saying, you know, when you’re able to say, ok, we see this we’re taking account, how do we put that into our strategy? And also, how are we willing to hurt these cats in this direction? So that it saying, okay, we have to acknowledge that maybe this is it isn’t something that we thought about from the beginning, but it’s something that we can do we can work with because we still have that base, that strategy, you know, that the key words, the ideas that were following being being flexible, working within your, especially when non-profits work within the different programs of the organization to find ways to be tactical through a digital media it’s okay, too get off track a little bit if it meets a specific need in purpose along the way. And i think to you found that a lot of times as we went through this eighteen month provoc project that that subtly shifting it when you work with a program staff who has a very unique need, but it would fit in the metrics of the project or working with the development team so that their their goals were met even though fund-raising wasn’t perhaps the ultimate be all and all but that they still had a very hyre viable program, and they needed digital focus. It was fine one more. One more thing on the goals, too. When we talk about getting an organization to decide on priorities, the first thing we say is it’s okay? We’re not saying we’re not going to do these. Other things, but when we have to make decisions about, you know, the user experience or prioritizing even projects against one another, you know that we will let those overriding goals lead, that we will still be doing these other things, they’re not going to be scrapped entirely in the same with reaching different audiences when they do the prioritization. All right, so now, in my own good time, i’m going, and i’m going to turn now to a man i’m just giving you shit that you don’t. Nobody listens to this show anyway, so don’t that’s not true, it’s not thank you, but, uh, okay, amanda now maybe maybe it’s similar to what happens when people stray but let’s go to how we’re gonna create this process way have the leadership that daddy made clear is essential. How are we going to get all the different program fund-raising finance and business all the interests to agree? What is that process, doctor? What’s. The start of that process at the start of that process is, without a doubt having your technology lead on staff talk, teo the equivalent lead in every program area whether its development, major gifts, administrative, human. Resource is program, every person needs a voice at the table and i found the most effective way to do that is get everyone in a room for a full day workshop and you spend the day going through it’s it’s really and airing of the grievances i really, truly is what it boils down to. Everyone needs a minute to talk about what the websites not doing for them and what it is doing for them and to talk about what they wanted to do. And when you start to do the airing of the grievances, i always imagined what would happen is it would just be horrifying day, and it actually wasn’t it really put a spotlight on what some very specific areas of problem, where digital for the organization and with dottie’s focus around how that day was constructed, we ended up with some very clear problem areas that allowed us to turn around and come back and say, ok, these are the areas that seemed to be the problem now let’s talk about how we can effectively fix them and what everyone did was when they got their chance to air their grievances, they felt heard. And then the next step was buy-in getting all of your primary decision makers to share what was wrong, then turns around in your benefit and allows them to feel buy-in in the process, they now think their needs are going to get met because they are. Ultimately what you want to do is meet those needs through your digital strategy. You hear what’s not working for every one you say here’s ways that we can meet them well, let’s, prioritize those and then once you do that, you have your vision. Now you have your strategic vision. Now our organization says here’s what our web site didn’t do here’s what wasn’t working for you, here’s where we wanted to go now we have a vision, we’re all now working together, everyone now has that collective head nod. We’re all looking the same way we all have the same focus and then it’s just working through a series of tactics to get to the end result and that’s really? What? Dotty’s what daddy’s company brought to tryto limited was this very clear process that we would go through. Everyone was going to agree everyone’s heads were not in the same way. And then we move on from the strategic the strategic vision to tactical that efforts. So so, trout unlimited was a was a hodges consulting clients. And then you must have been such an evangelist. Yes, right. Yeah. Immediate buy-in. Well, eva, what daddy was doing that she hired you away. If i had been the director of online operations for eight years, so my time had come, i had run my course that try to limit it. It was it was a great organization, it’s a great organization were doing with us and we still have the man’s a client. So it’s all very good. Okay, excellent. All right, now i had mentioned on office that i’m having a hard time seeing how the website impacts then so help me out. I had mentioned bringing to this table finance finance? Yes. And the c f o in the business. What does the money? What? How does the website or even relate to them? I think it’s a little bit of how it relates to them in the overall of how the website relates them and also how the process relates them. So a lot of especially a man who is talking about is also the process of how do we get everyone on the same page? So what we do is threespot is that we do stakeholder interviews and see, you know what people are looking for, what they’re not getting, what they want, that kind of thing and the way something like finance please in is that if you’re hiring from outside or even if you’re doing it internally, there’s a lot of money and time and energy that goes into a digital strategy, a website, hiring people, that kind of stuff, having they’re having their perspective and having, you know, is it worth it? Is not that kind of thing? Also, in the thought of what if one of your goals is raising money or doing something like that and working with, you know, the finance team to say, okay, how much money is going to be worth it? You know, how much is is it gonna matter if we do this? And we raised, you know, five thousand dollars like, is that still impactful? Like what? You know, what really matters? So i mean, everyone really has a rule and it’s important to kind of as a man who said not ignore that because you don’t want to come back, as were talking about before you’re coming to the leadership in your coming to people on the board or something like that, and they’re like, well, this is not what we expected but it’s not what we wanted or just not answering any of our questions or, you know, it’s a great website, but why do we have this? You know, you should know better evangelize er for your mission than your staff, and if every staff doesn’t feel bought into your end product, then you’ve not done your homework. And so making sure that the director of human resources, which needs to post job openings on the website, has a clear and free way to do so is critical for that end product and on lee, you know, let’s, just say your primary goal is to drive membership or to build community that doesn’t mean that you’re going to do that to the detriment of process or efficiency for other staff in the organization that program director who’s still trying to do a very small, focused niche of your mission needs as much buy-in and as much voice in the process as the executive director, everyone needs a voice on the tape. Yeah, go and that’s, just the way you mentioned the power of the process really is part of it as well, not just the outcome. Amanda, you were talking about that earlier where, you know, people collectively begin to see, you know, if i’m a director of development, obviously i have a pretty clear priorities for the site, right? But if i’m suddenly at a table where maybe i haven’t really been converse in our, you know, had the opportunity to work alongside directly finance, hr, whatever, whatever we’re collectively, we start to have the conversation about the good of the whole, it really changes the perspective. Everyone still got what they need to get done right at the end of the day, but it really helps that perspective so that everyone’s kind of starting to look in the same direction. One of the examples i had it that for that try to limit it was to really sit and listen to membership services. The people are are on the frontlines answering the phone calls from people who are giving online or doing any number of tasks to the website and really hearing from their perspective what their feedback is specifically from the members where the sticky points are what they have to put up with when the fund-raising team puts out, you know, one hundred thousand emails or what or the the advocacy team puts out an action alert on an issue what the reciprocal event is for that person and it’s very, i think it’s very common for non-profits for programs and teams to work very siloed you have your task, you have what you do. You sit down and do it there’s not a lot of opportunity for the hole, for the whole organization to come together around a single project except for digital media thes tend to be the kinds of projects where the entire group the entire non-profit as a whole has a stake in the outcome. That really is where elektronik transcends a lot of what any non-profit does, daddy, i’d like to talk a little about the details of this this strategic day. Are there boardmember is there? Is the board represented in that or no really? Just just senior leadership? No that’s, a good question and can be historically, we have not seen that not by my design. Typically you get, you know, unengaged executive director seo, whatever the role, maybe you get, you know, the sea level in director level heads of departments in that sort of workshop environment, often times at key points with clients, for example. And amanda mentioned the strategic vision deliver herbal. It could go by other names. I think threespot uses a different name, but basically that’s, that touchstone document that says here’s, what we’re gonna accomplish together that’s the kind of document that often gets elevated to the board level. So oftentimes when we create a project timeline, one of the first questions with the core committee is okay. Who are decision makers who needs to be involved at certain touchpoint what are those timelines? We have a quarterly board meeting coming up, whatever it may be so that we can structure the project around that and get that buy-in you, like teo, do these offsite typically it’s on side of the client? Sometimes virtual were a fairly virtual company, actually. So it tends to be a real blend. And it really we look to the client. To dictate what their preferred, you know, method is okay. And, uh and you are the facilitator for the day. Yes, martin. Okay, what? We have just another couple of minutes or so. Let’s. See, uh, once you must leave cem cem parting thoughts let’s see two money? Let me ask you for money. It sounds like it sounds like threespot does more than just build websites. I mean, you’re sounds like you’re deeply engaged in the analytics that are going toe contribute to to the design of the website. Yes, threespot way started off mostly doing websites, but we also do social media consulting strategy sometimes requires in housework. I’ve gone to work for clients for a while, we do analytics, we do content creation and content strategy, user experience. And so it really kind of just range is everything which is again goes back. Teo, you know, you’re not just building a website, you’re creating experience, you’re creating a strategy, and so, you know, if we just build a website and we didn’t have conversations about how social plays into it, how we’re going to launch it on social media once it goes up, you know what? The you know, the analytics that we’re going to put behind it, you know how those going play and we’re going to google analytics? Are we tracking out all the links? You know, that kind of stuff, then you’re kind of just doing part of your digital strategy on dso threespot is an interactive agency, it’s, not just a web design agency, and we really, you know, make sure to touch on all of those things, and so it could be, you know, going through and going through every ounce of content and saying, ok, how do we have to change this? How do we migrate this over that kind of stuff? And it also could be coming up with a robust way to show analytics to the board, you know? So it really there’s there’s a lot of different things that we do all right on daddy wanted to leave us with some parting thoughts about the importance of the s bomb, sure, so the importance of yes, bomb i think in the context we’ve been talking a lot about in the context of web development, which is certainly applicable, we think of it a little more broadly and just echo what tulani saying about looking at the big picture that, you know, the bomb is in a four letter word? It’s not a dirty word, it’s not something. Where, you know, you hear someone say we need a strategy and people go, oh, you know, and they just think of many, many months and many, many stacks of papers that may or may never get examined, digitally or otherwise, and we want to create something for the organization that’s very viable, you know, creates and produces a road map, you know, creates buy-in ultimately gets to better product that’s gonna have a better r a y for the organization and and the truth is, we kind of cheat because we like the framework so much we use it for lots of stuff, whether it’s, a website, project or an organization says we need to look across the enterprise at what we’re doing with our digital program or we kind of just need any communications plan of attack, we’ll apply the same framework, so we think it works across the board, which to me means it must be at least relatively solid, and it also just helps to always say that it’s a working document. So understanding the digital space is changing all the time, you know, making sure that, you know, you create these documents in this strategy, but, you know, really bite-sized people, this is a working document. You know, another platform might come up for another way to approach fund-raising might happen. And really, you know, having people be open. Teo yes. So strategy, but it could develop. They can change and being willing to evaluate whether that new platform belongs in in our suite or or not exam avoiding that shiny object syndrome. All right, we have to leave it there. Thank you very much, ladies. Thank you for having us. My pleasure, tulani elisa is social media manager at threespot. Daddy hodges, president of hodges consulting. And, uh, the newest. It sounds like the newest employee of hodges consulting. Is that correct? Is amanda heidtke. She is a director of digital strategy there. Thank you again very much. Thank you. Thank you. This’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc two thousand fourteen the non-profit technology conference. Thank you very much for being with us. Crowd funding law with jean takagi is coming up first. Pursuant, have you checked out there giving outlook report? They bring in data from several industry reports, and they put it together with their own informed perspective as consultants to give you precautions, opportunities and questions for discussion in your office or with your board, you’ll find the e-giving outlook report at pursuing dot com click resource is and then content papers. I like the idea that these could be discussion points for your board. Valuable. We’ll be spelling spelling bees for fund-raising have you checked out their latest video? Lots of checking, checking to do this week all valuable you’ll see live music, dancing, standup comedy, spelling, of course, and raising money from millennials who are having a great time at this party. It’s at we be e spelling dot com now for tony steak, too. Videos of this week is sincerity are your thank you sincere. Last thanksgiving, i got two messages that we’re trying to thank me and wanted to thank me, but they failed because they added in promotions and solicitations that really made them suspect and it’s pretty phony sounding actually plus, in this video, my hair makes a final cameo appearance a stranger kicks it literally kicks my hair down the beach. You believe that? Um, is not attached to my head anymore, but still, i think it deserves some modicum of respect for my hair, but it didn’t get it. You’ll see it. You see it with sincerity. The video is at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two for today. Let’s. Do the live listener love, et cetera, et cetera. There’s. So many live listeners. It’s, it’s. Remarkable was starting domestic new york, new york multiple love that unless you’re all neighbors written the same apartment on the sixteenth floor and just three of you making me try to make me feel good but about not live listen love to new york, new york. Where else? Tampa, florida monroe, new york, upstate. Cool. Monroe. I think i got it. I think i got a traffic ticket once in monroe or monroe township. If that’s you well, you’re still welcome. Ah, send love to you, but not to the officer. Ah, would ridge, new jersey love my home? State checking in woodbridge. Thank you. And seattle, washington. Way up. Pacific northwest. Love the seattle a for that. What was that? Look at that airport lately. I don’t know, but they’re seattle live! Listen, i’d love to you, let’s goto we’ve got we’ve got someone in american a territory i believe these were called territories and this is in in puerto rico. Come, we cmu y i’m probably not pronouncing right, but puerto rico is with us live listener love to you first time listeners, puerto rico as far as i can tell, live love too puerto rico, japan, konnichi wa multiple japan multiple u k of course we don’t know which country could be well whales or ireland or scotland or england. We don’t know. I’m not getting myself in hot water like i did last week before over welchlin his english so live with their love to the listeners in the uk. Also germany. We’ve got multiple germany, gooden dog! We’ve got rods! Grodd, bulgaria. Remarkable bulgaria welcome and also in the caribbean santa domingo, dominican republic welcome and what else we’ve got? We’ve got bucharest and protest e in romani, romania. I love it. And brussels, belgium is with us. Ah, and sao paulo, brazil i know it’s, not san paulo. Les americans called san paolo. No it’s. Sao sao paulo, brazil welcome for us. Welcome live listen love to you as well. Probono gado, we got to do the you know, jean hang on there, gene. So many people to thank. I got to send the love if i could live listen, love i’ve got to the podcast pleasantries how could i go do one without the other to the r twelve thousand podcast listeners twelve thousand plus, of course, but it’ll plus sign after that third xero twelve thousand plus podcast listeners pleasantries to you. I am very, very grateful that you are with us and the affiliate affections, of course. Got to say again. Welcome to our newest affiliate, w m n b in western mass northern books here, but all the affiliate listeners throughout the country on our am and fm station family. So glad that you are with us now we bring in. Jean takagi has been waiting very patiently, but i have to send the thanks. Gene he’s, the managing attorney of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, california. He edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com and is the american bar association’s twenty sixteen outstanding. Non-profit lawyer, i’ll avoid the joke about now being twenty seventeen and moral resting. I think i did that already. He’s at g tack on twitter. Jeanne, i love you. You know i do. Welcome back. Thanks so much, honey. How are you doing? Wonderfully it’s. Terrific. It’s a good day today. I went to the beach. I went to the peach. I went to the gym before the show. Always get that, like there’s. Endorphins flowing. I love it. Um, how are you doing out there in california? It’s a beautiful day have been getting a lot of rain out here lately, which i guess we needed. But it’s a beautiful day today. Yeah, not as much as you’ve been getting, like, four inches an hour or something. Yeah, way. All no floods and mudslides and things, but okay, i’m glad you have a beautiful day today. I hope you’re not impacted badly by the flooding and stuff. All good here. Okay. Okay. So we’re talking about crowdfunding law today. Um, now, let’s, just make sure that ah, we, uh we know some of the biggest sites i think for non-profits. Check me. Check me on these donors. Choose where actually, charles best. The ceo. There has been a guest on non-profit radio. Go, fund me, andy. Go, go. Crowdrise and i want to give a shout out to someone else had been a guest on the show, the ceo of deposit, a gift, then ostomel do those ring true to you for non-profits? Yeah, absolutely. Although i think indy go goes now, rebranded itself for charity and generosity, but yeah, those are all major site. I did. You know, you’re right. I didn’t update. Yeah, indiegogo slash generosity. Is that them? Is that right? Yeah. Ok. Ok. Thank you. Check me on that. You wrote a very informative article, which were were touching pieces off for ah non-profit quarterly. And by the way, i got the executive editor of non-profit quarterly is going to coming on the show very soon. Roof roof, right? Yes. Your article is, uh, understanding crowdfunding after a tragedy, and you’ll find it. Uh, listeners will find it at non-profit quarterly dot or ge understanding crowdfunding after tragedy. Okay, you point out in that article that this is becoming crab and funny is becoming huge, like it’s it’s approaching or by twenty twenty five. Is going to surpass what global venture capital is today? Yeah. It’s amazing. I think it was productive to reach in two thousand fifteen, which already past thirty four billion and looks like the world bank is projecting nineteen. Ninety six billion dollars. Buy twenty twenty five. Yeah. That’s remarkable on that’s. The number that i think is your article says is twice what? The, um twice what the i want to take this correctly with the global venture capital industry is today that’s correct? Yeah. Remarkable. I mean, well, people are generous, you know, what can we say? People throughout the world wanna help causes now, sometimes you have to be careful where that money is going, what the cause is or what the person is. We’re going to get to that. So, um, you like to differentiate between businesses and charities doing crowdfunding? Yeah, and that’s actually a really important point. So, you know, not all of that, you know, thirty four billion in two thousand fifteen or the projected ninety billion plus in two thousand twenty five is going to be for charity. A lot of that, um, is going to businesses that are looking for funding. To build there cos it’s a new way for startups not just to seek venture capital money from very wealthy individuals or institutions, but now to go out to the crowd just to go out to regular people, uh and and asking them to invest a small amount of money or a modest amount of money, but which might be actually a kind of a big deal. Teo somebody you know who doesn’t have a lot of wealth t back back ideas that they love, and they might love it for pure business sake. Or they might love it in some cases because the charities involved. Yeah. Now that’s you ah, this is called investment fund-raising investment crowdfunding, where there may be an equity stake available to you as a as an early participant in this startup idea, right? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Okay, cool. Now we want to focus on donation, crowdfunding and and a little on reward. Crowdfunding. Why don’t you explain those chris? Sure. So donation crowdfunding usually involves asking the crowds. I’m just going to go call the internet audience that that goes on to the site and looks it you’re solicitations as the crowd. You just go on to the site and have a page that’s asking for a gift of donation. It might be for a particular project that you have, or it might be more generally just to support the charity on dh. So that’s that’s sort of broadly donation crowdfunding rewards crowdfunding is kind of a little bit of, you know, within the realm of donation crowdfunding so it’s kind of a subtype of donation crowdfunding in one way in that you’re usually soliciting some sort of gift, but you’re goingto also promise back to anybody who gives you a gift, some sort of reward, and sometimes that reward is a negligible value, just like you might get a sticker. Oh, our coffee mug for, you know, a major donation that you make or, you know, the pbs type of gifts that you get for becoming a member of pbs and donating to them and sometimes it’s actually a more substantial gift where you’re going to get, you know, a new product that’s coming out from the charity ahead of the real market that’s out there, that’s going to purchase it when it when it’s fully launched our concern around these crowdfunding solicitations. Is something that’s, you know? And you’ve said to his near and dear to my heart and you’re well acquainted with it also the requirement whether to register in each state under their charity solicitation laws, because once this website becomes active and live, then you’re soliciting in all fifty states because it’s visible in all fifty? Yeah, i mean that’s a really good point. Let me just, um, looking face about whether, you know, simply having a site, i’ll take it back a few years and say, if you just had a fight with a donate button, are you really soliciting in states if you get no contributions from the states, so it gets a little bit, um, questionable whether having krauz pending sight, even though visible to residents of every state, is actually soliciting in that state, let alone you actually do attract, um, somebody that contributes to your campaign um then i would say, yeah, you’ve now triggered it you’ve now solicited in that state, and particularly because you’re going to have some communications going back and forth with with a resident of the state. So technically speaking, yeah, even even once, once you’ve launched that crowdfunding. Site. And then you receive ah contribution from resident in that state. Technically, you may fall within that jurisdiction, although, you know, for the legal geeks out there. There’s still minimum contact. Saand, whether state can actually regulate you if it’s just a really tiny, like donation. If you got five dollars from wyoming, does that mean you have to register there? Probably nobody’s worried about that. But we got something. You create some issues. You got something against wyoming. Is that what you’re saying? That’s fly over territory way may have live. Listen, we don’t have not in wyoming. Wait. No, i not incorporated or formed and which is not already registered. If it’s soliciting out side and gets a contribution from outside that state. So i didn’t mean to pick on why at wyoming other and has a great example of generous people. And you are more precise than i am. Which is why you are our crack legal contributor and i am not. What i should have said is you are potentially soliciting in lots of states, all the states when your when your web page goes live, that really depends on the definition of a solicitation. And in some states, as you said, gene it’s, how much you actually get back, whether it’s, big and dollars, or biggin proportion to your overall fund-raising. So there’s, there’s nuances there, and you are good at pointing them out. That’s, why i have you on to keep me clean, so i really should have said, you’re potentially soliciting. Ok, we got it. We got to go out for the break. When we come back, you and i’ll keep talking about crowdfunding law. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and a a me levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation, tap trends, sound advice, that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio. I’m melanie schnoll begun managing director morgan stanley philantech management. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I am the imprecise and inarticulate host. Gee, takagi, thankfully is with me, jean one understands want to wrap up this state’s solicitation registration issue with this comes up a lot for me when i speak on the subject. The question is, what if the site where we’re crowdfunding says they take care of charity solicitation laws? I always encourage charities to go a step further and investigate what they actually mean by by that have they actually registered in all fifty states? Um, what’s your what’s your feeling on that if the if the site the platform says, oh, we took care of that for you, it definitely got investigate that way further. So there are special registration requirements from professional or commercial fundraisers, andi, if they’re if they’re serving in that role, they’ve got to figure out if they’re properly registered and that may not exempt the charity from also registering there. Just because you’ve got a professional working in that state. The other way that it might be done is if the is the party that you’ve contacted is a charity itself and running a donor advised funds. Ah, and network for good is an example of a donor advised fundchat pretty that attracts a lot of charities. Teo, use their platforms or widgets. T raise funds on behalf of them. But it’s not technically on behalf of them, they’re actually raising money for themselves and then re granting that money to your charity. But they have the legal discretion of whether do that or not. Now they almost always do that. So long this year, compliant with laws and still ah, domestic five a one c three entity but it’s definitely worth more investigation. All right, let’s, move to the reward. Crowdfunding. And what the implications? Maybe if a charity gives a ah a reward, give something in exchange, let’s, start with the insubstantial, the mug, the sticker, et cetera. If we were doing something in substantial, what? What are our potential? Pitfalls? Liabilities? Well, you know, i guess one thing is to define what insubstantial is. So you kind of think if you were giving just a very small sticker that was really worth nothing, then you’re probably not worried about it at all. I used to mug is an example. Maybe that was a bad one, because i guess it depends upon what you’re giving to get that. So if you made a five dollar contribution and you got mugged, they got back a mug that was worth five dollars and that’s probably a sale that’s probably not a donation that made and getting a gift back in return. And every state may view this in a different way, and it gets really, really interesting from a lawyer’s perspective, but complicated from ah charities perspective when they do, when you know, e-giving example in washington state, i believe, you know, if you made a five hundred dollar contribution and you’ve got a shirt in return for that, um, on the shirt was worth let’s, say, twenty dollars, um, under washington law, i think what it says right now is that if the minimum contribution is five hundred dollars to get that shirt that we think you should pay sales tax on five hundred dollars for that shirt because five hundred dollars, really a portion of that is a donation, i think there’s a bill in process in washington to correct that. Okay, good. So the laws are behind all of these just like new mechanisms for fund-raising and giving back rewards even though they’re there quid pro contributions on under the irs. So the irs and federal tax law has sort of recognise this for some time, but for sales tax purposes and sellers permit purposes, the states aren’t completely onboard, and crowdfunding is just exploding the way these things were used on dh the states air catching up. We’ve got a live listener in seattle, washington. What do you people doing up there? My god, you’re out of control, all right? But it sounds like they’re trying to remedy it. So that’s that’s okay, um, there’s a bunch of stuff i want to talk about. So what? I’m going to suggest we all do if you have questions about the quid pro quo thing related to fundraise related to crowdfunding at irs dot gov just searched the phrase quid pro quo contributions and there’s a page that comes up and tells you what your substantiation requirements are. If the gift is two hundred fifty dollars or more for the written acknowledgement and what the acknowledgement is to say, search that phrase that irs dot gov quid pro quo contributions jean will you permit us to leave that leave that topic there? Yeah, actually, maybe if i just throwing one last thing the irs considers a low cost article an artist, something that that’s of a token amount on dh certain items if they don’t exceed ten dollars and seventy cents, and that that amount is that adjusted every year. But for two thousand seventeen, if it doesn’t exceed ten thousand ten dollars and seventy cents in the contribution was at least fifty three dollars and fifty cents. I might be going into jargon jail there, but those are the two thousand seventeen figures, then it’s it’s sort of not counted as a sail for unrelated business income tax purposes, and so that’s something to think about, and also for deductibility of donation purposes. So something to think about, if this states would use that as guidance in terms of determining whether that’s a sail for their purposes as well. Okay, now that’s not jogging, joe that’s detailed that we don’t have detailed jail because details where the sale’s important toe fifty three dollars and fifty cents for twenty seventeen. Okay, all right. You didn’t hear me because we have this digital. Systems so when you’re talking, you can hear me. You don’t hear me call you an anarchist, but i wanted you want i don’t want to be dishonest and do it behind your back. So sort of because i know you didn’t hear me say it. Okay? Let’s, go to the individuals. Can. This is interesting. Can a charity? Oh, we just have a couple minutes left. Holy cow. All right, kenna charity raised money for an individual and we only have, like, two minutes left. Jean e charity conspiracy money on individuals who may be distressed or, you know, who fall into a charitable class, right? But they can’t actually tell their donors that the donors khun direct their donations towards a single individual. If the donor wants the deduction on their gift, if they want a deduction, it’s got to be a gift to the charity and it’s up to the charity to determine which individuals that it wants to help. Ok, you can certainly use an individual as an example of a class of people that you’re going to be benefiting. Of course. Right. Exactly. Okay, okay. So that’s cool. So yeah, i mean, it makes sense. We we have charitable deductibility is for charitable purposes, and individuals are not charities. Is that is that the basics of it? Yeah, that that is on dso. Crowdfunding is where? There’s a lot of abuse of this in terms of a lot of charity. Say, you know, you can raise money, you know, for this individual donate and we’ll send it to this individual. Just click on which individual you want us to send it to not technically done properly, but you might find a disclaimer in there somewhere that says, we don’t really mean that, and you’re really going to give to the charity. Okay? We don’t really mean that. All right. Um okay. So what we have seen we have in the man. We have a minute left with gene. Okay, what are you saying? Me? Three minutes or one minute? We have. We have thirty seconds. All right, then, jean. We’re gonna leave it there. How about that? Have a great talking with you. Okay? I thank you for holding my feet to the fire and being the precise attorney that you are and counter acting the loose lipped host. Thank you for that. He’s. A. Managing attorney of neo non-profit exempt organizations law group read the read the site, go to the block non-profit law block dot com and find him on twitter at g attack next week. The giving code what you can learn from this report on silicon valley philanthropy i mentioned mentioned that the gene one if he’s if he’s familiar with this, but anyway report on silicon valley philanthropy there are lessons for you from this. We got the two co authors on next week live. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com welcome again, you have men be one oh seven point one fm in north adams, massachusetts. So glad to have you with us. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. I got an announcement coming next week about our am and fm affiliate outreach director. Hang on show social media is by susan chavez on our music is by scott stein, you’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Hey! What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno, two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. 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Nonprofit Radio for January 6, 2017: 2017 Legal Tips & This Year’s Board Retreat

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Erin Bradrick: 2017 Legal Tips

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent happy new year for sure, the new year twenty seventeen my voice just crack together come a fourteen year old it’s incessant with the voice i got to get lessons or surgery or something. Happy new year, that’s much more important, i hope twenty seventeen is going to be very successful for you. I hope you’re going to be doing some introspection and inspection and buy two guests today. You’re goingto talk about some topics for you to be the introspective about. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with ryan ola thigh assis if i got a whiff of you missing today’s show twenty seventeen legal tips are first introspection topic the new year means a close look in the corners we’ve got the legal issues you need to find tune aaron bradrick is senior counsel at the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo and this year’s board retreat done right, your retreat will energize and focus your board and get them working as a team. Greg cohen nose out he’s a senior associate at cause effective tony steak too. Charity registration. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com. And by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com. I’m very pleased a real pleasure to welcome aaron bradrick when she calls in, we had her, but she’s gone, it wasn’t her. Okay, aaron bradrick is not here yet, but she ought to be calling in very shortly at ten a m pacific time, which is one o’clock eastern. So let’s see, well, some of the things that she and i are going to talk about, of course she’ll have the detail. Um, we’re going to start with this topic of charity registration, which i’m planning to fill in a little more on in tony’s take two, but you know, the general idea that you need to be properly registered in each state where you solicit our first introspection is the introspection show our first introspection topic for twenty seventeen. Yes, you need to be probably registered wherever you’re soliciting donations, you need to be registered with the state authorities, and we’re also going to talk about a board calendar. I’m not. Sure, i don’t know, maybe non-profits doing this routinely, i mean, i go to board meetings, but i don’t know whether they are planning the full year. Maybe they are. I’m not saying i’m not saying it’s not happening. Maybe greg cohen has all inside, and tonight we might talk about that later on, but it ought to be there ought to be a yearlong calendar of topics for your meetings, however often their car so that you got some strategy around it and some common sense. Um, let’s, see what we’re going to? Uh, yeah, all right, we’ll take a break and we’ll see if we can get i mean, i didn’t mind i don’t mind summarizing, frankly, but it’s bothering sam sam’s bothered sam doesn’t like it. I don’t know father was like, all right, it’s, my shot duvette piela i want, but i’ll take the advice. We’ll take a break, we’ll see if we can get aaron burr. Aaron bradrick on the phone. If not, well, you’re going to stay with us anyway. Nobody’s going anywhere, we’ll see what happens. It’ll be an adventure for everybody. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals, is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Hello, i’m j c. I’m joan, and welcome to twenty first century entrepreneur. We bring education in sight, knowledge, awareness, trouble, craziness and fun for you, the entrepreneur who’s looking to build your business and your community. Listen every friday from noon toe one eastern on top radio dot n y c, and you can tweet us at twenty first c e radio or talk alternative. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, and we did get aaron. It appears that i may have made a mistake. There’s an allegation that i made a mistake. I’m pulling a trump. This is me and i’m pulling a donald trump. This is alleged hacking. This is a land that there’s a mistake. I’m going to go back and check the record. I actually, you know, on dh i’ll apologize in advance, erin, because there’s a good chance. I did make a mistake. I’m usually pretty good, but maybe i did let’s see let’s give her air informal introduction she’s a senior counsel at the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco where she is calling from she’s, a regular contributor to the very popular non-profit law block dot com and the practices devoted solely to non-profit and exempt organizations she’s at aaron bradrick and the firm is at neo-sage group dot com welcome, aaron the same story and sorry for that computer and i was planning to call in at ten. Thirty. So, uh, sorry about that, but i’m glad to be here. That’s okay, i may be the one who’s. Supposed to say sorry? I thought we ok, obviously i thought we said i i thought i said ten pacific, but i made you know, you there’s a good chance for because i’m booking a lot of guys glad. Glad we’re on now. Yes, and thank you for doing it. Spur of the moment. Okay, so i gave a little introduction into just a couple of the first two topics that you and i we’re going to talk about the filing requirements for charity registration and the board calendar, but i just gave glossy overviews so let’s talk about this charity registration filing thing. You think this is something good to look at in the beginning of the year? Yeah, i mean, i think the basic idea is that the new year it’s, good climb for organizations, kind of take a look in the mirror and see what they have coming up for the next year, make sure they’re organized, ready to go with a fresh start. And i think one of the things that we’re seeing lately is particularly at the state level regulatory agencies really cracking down due to the lack of compliance with registration and filing requirements. And it could be something that’s easy for an organisation to overlook. We recommend kind of the beginning of the year taking a look at what deadlines you have coming up for various filing requirements, which often turned on when your fiscal year and for the organization. I’m not just the annual returns that are filed with the irs and potentially with state tax authority, but also with potentially a charitable oversight and sees which is the attorney general and any ongoing filing requirements with the secretary of state or department of state and creating a calendar for you the year of when the silent or do and making sure you have a point person who’s designated to make sure the organization doesn’t miss the deadline. Yeah, that could be that could be a tough one for smaller organizations where the organization has a lot of filings to keep up with it’s it’s it can be difficult for someone to devote, like a quarter or a half of their time to these compliance issues. Yeah, absolutely. And particularly for all. Fall into your organizations where you don’t have a staff member, you can designate the responsibility of making sure these were met on the problem that we also see with a lot of these organizations is particularly when they’re all volunteer run when there’s a change in the officer structure there’s a change in the board, they don’t update these regulatory agencies with her new address, so even if they do miss a filing deadline, mostly agencies will send out reminders or have notices that the deadline has passed and that you have not seen an opportunity to make this filing before their adverse consequences from missing the deadline. But if you haven’t updated with a new address, sometimes organizations aren’t even receiving notices at all, not even aware that they’re missing with that fine, but we’re seeing greater consequences for missing these types of filing requirements, so it is really important for organizations to make sure they have some sort of system in place to make sure things don’t fall through the cracks. There’s something related to that that happened a few years ago? Now i know you’re talking about going beyond what’s required by irs, the form nine ninety whichever variation on organization may do based on their size, but but it was like three years ago or so ah, a couple of hundred thousand non-profits lost their tax exempt status for failure to file their version of the nine, ninety. Yeah, so the irs regulations we’re past that said that if an organization fails to file on exempt entity return for three consecutive years, then immediately upon the third missed filing, they’re exempt. Status will be automatically revoked. There’s no discretionary basis for preventing that automatic revocation. So if you missed three years of your nine nine year whatever for my ninety year required to file, then you can be automatically revote. There’s there’s some leeway, but for many organizations, if you are automatically revoked, you have to apply all over again to have your exam status reinstated. We’re actually up to almost seven hundred thousand organizations that have been automatically revoked over the last, i guess, six years, seven years now. Oh, okay, i didn’t know it was that large, and maybe that maybe that initial wave was now that the first wave of, like, three hundred thousand that wasn’t six or seven years ago, was it? No, i believe i believe they started them in two thousand ten, but i’d have to confirm falik automatic. Revocation put into effect, there was a big there was a big serge, a bubble, whatever in one year, but i think i was only, like three years ago or so roughly because because i know this show is six and a half years old, and it didn’t come at the beginning of that. I mean, those may have been happening, but then there was that huge one. Like i said, like close to three hundred thousand or so. All right, so okay, look in your look, look in the dusty corners, check your filing requirements, basically let’s say let’s, go to the let’s, go to the board calendar. You do you do you think most non-profits are setting their agenda for the year in advance? Are they doing that? I think probably not, but i think it could be a very effective tool. I think some larger organizations previewed organizations with large staff that helped to kind of coordinate the board meetings or, more likely, that be setting some sort of calendar for a full year. But i think he’d be helpful even for smaller organizations are entirely volunteer run organizations as well. I think it can just help. To set expectations for various meanings in advance to make sure the meetings are effective and efficient and that the board really covers everything it needs. Teo during the meetings throughout the year, yeah, it makes great sense. You you look at the whole year plan and make sure that everything is covered. So maybe you have some training on financials are you want to cover programs and you want make sure i would think you give equal time to all your programs or maybe wake them based on the preponderance that they proportion that they bear to your organization’s revenue or activities or something. But you won’t make sure everything is covered. It makes sense tow look at it for the whole year. Um, and you also suggest leaving some space for things that are going come up at hawk, of course, you know, it would be nice if we could predict in advance everything that was going to arrive throughout the course of the year, but i think that’s a very rare occurrence. So it’s important to make sure that in scheduling kind of topics for a board meeting, you’re not so rigid that there’s not opportunity for the board to discuss the really pressing issues that arise throughout the course of the year. You, uh you call this stargazing? I like that on time. Stargazing. I’ll have to give credit. I think jean takagi uses that term a lot. My colleague at any old locker. But we like the idea that, you know, a big part of the board function is really thinking big for the organization. So it’s not just necessarily thinking about the financials and the more procedural and legal aspects of government, but also thinking about, you know, what the organization can really accomplish, what its mission is, what is exempt purposes are and how it can best carry those out with the assets that has access to the kind of thinking big picture thinking about the potential of the organization. In fact, that could be a problem with a lot of boards is that they do get mired in the detail and they ignore the the larger role that they that they should be filling. Yeah, look at that time that’s looking critically at markets and competition and potentials, maybe scrutinising current activities to decide if we should be doing everything that we are doing etcetera, so these bigger picture items um and i think one of the hardest things for boards is actually to take a critical look at current programs and to make the tough decisions so, you know, if something isn’t working as well as it may be ought to be here isn’t necessarily the best use of the organization’s asset. Is there some kind of big changes that need to be made and those air filter big conversation? You know, there’s, not one that just happened in a short, you know, fifteen minutes section of ah one board meeting, so making sure that there’s room on the calendar for any of those types of conversations that should be taking place and perhaps will come up organically, you like to take a look att governance policies and there there are some that are in new marais tid in the form nine, ninety let’s get you why don’t you take those off? Go ahead. Yeah, the form nine ninety asks about a section has a section in the form nineteen doing be about policies, and it does actually say on the form nine, ninety itself that these policies aren’t required under the internal revenue code, but it is possible it somewhere required under applicability student law, so it is important for an organisation to be aware of any state laws that apply to it. But the policies that are mentioned on the form nine ninety are conflict of interest policy, a whistleblower policy and the document retention and destruction policy. The fact that they’re even included on this in a return form is just signal, i think, from the irs with either things that the irs was kind of thinking are important towards good governance of an organisation and are things that the organization doesn’t have in place, even though not legally required could be advisable and recommended from governance perspective. And then also from a marketing perspective, the ninety is so widely available that potential donors volunteers boardmember sze doing due diligence, whoever’s looking at your your nine ninety e i think it just doesn’t look so good to say no, we don’t have the conflict of interest policy, whistleblower policy, etcetera. Even though the irs, even though the form says they’re not required, i think it looks bad to check off those no boxes. Yeah, i could potentially and you’re right, you know, particularly, i think funders have access to nine, nine years and we’ll take a look at them and they are publicly available document the last three years, as you noted, so again, it it could be, you know, while not legally required, it could be a signal that you have good governance policies and good governance practices in place. You do, in fact, have these policies, of course, though having a policy in and of itself is of no use if you’re not actually making sure everyone is aware of the policy and following it and enforcing it so that’s another part of what we recommend, kind of the beginning of the year or some other time that the organization designate was appropriate based on its annual calendar, but taking a look at what policies you do have in place, whether they’re working for the organization or whether any changes should be made, whether everybody actually knows where to find the policies and his reviewed copies of them, and then also whether there are any gaps in your policy so there’s something that, you know, it would be helpful to have a policy on and you don’t yet and would it be appropriate to kind of put that on your task list in terms of coming up with an appropriate policy on that topic? Ok, one that’s coming to mind is it policy and the use of private personal devices for for organizational purposes? Do we allow it? What what do we require if we do allow it? You know, etcetera, what do you feel about that policy? We don’t see that as having been adopted by many organization, but i think it’s just becoming increasingly more relevant in the way that most organizations operate today, so it actually could be advisable, particularly for larger organization with larger staffs are a lot of volunteers that are potentially using technology resources that belonged to the organization. The use of of resources also comes up, particularly in the context of lobbying activities and political activities, which for five whillans trees you know, obviously, lobbying activities for public cherries have to be an insubstantial amount of their overall activity, but political activities are completely prohibited, and even you seven organizational resource for improper campaign intervention activity could be problematic, and i think a policy could be particularly effective in that area as well. Okay, lobbying ceo compensation is one that you like to see? Yeah, sometimes it doesn’t necessarily need to be in a formal policy, but it is something that the organization often need to be aware of the importance of and make sure it’s falling some sort of i’m specific process for determining appropriate ceo compensation, particularly here in california, we have a requirement that the combination of the ceo be approved by the board or unauthorized committee when it’s first offered, when the period of employment is renewed and then whenever it’s modified, even if it’s modified data word. So there are certain requirements in place with respect to ceo compensation and then also at the federal level under the internal revenue code there’s certain requirements with respect to how you determine whether compensation amounts are appropriate for having a policy in place could be good, particularly for an organization that has significant turnover. Andi it’s in its board, where there might not be a lot of awareness of what practices and policies should be followed with respect to determining compensation. Jean and i have talked about the competition hyre the presumption, etcetera, it’s, it’s in a previous share we’ve we’ve we’ve done something on that listen, sentiments and california because i said you’re in san francisco, but what are you hearing about the suspicion succession movement? Are we going? We’re gonna be down to forty nine six for you to start off the flag. It’s going to be a balance, therefore, i think probably not in my lifetime. I don’t think you do. People talk about a lot of talk about it. Do people talk about, like, over drinks and dinners and things? The result of the election have led to many conversations over drinks in my circle. I will. I will certainly say i’m not searching me. People are christian. Too hard for succession, but it’s definitely been floated. Okay? Yeah. All right, so it does come up. Okay. Okay, forty nine is, uh i was you were talking. I was thinking to forty nine as a prime. It would be hard to be weird to have a prime number, aziz Numbers, but not a prime 7 times seven is forty, so i was wrong there, but i mean, i hope it doesn’t happen. I there, there those who will we’ll send you off. Gladly, but i’m not among them. I hope we still, i’m glad to hear that way. In your mind. We’re keeping you in the union intact. Idealware okay. Let’s see so oh, and then, you know, we haven’t talked about any fund-raising policies, but you might have a gift acceptance and crediting policy and that’s something i work a lot with non-profits and i often find an existing one is not being followed. So in terms of either acceptance, i mean there’s a lot in there that non-profits forget is in there and then same thing with crediting they, i find it’s a policy that gets created and then often ignored. So, yeah, i can often be the problem with particularly these types of policies that are kind of thought of as the core required policies. People might even forget that they’re out there. So i think having some sort of process in place where the policy they’re easy to access and everybody that needs to be aware of them is well aware of what you know what they actually say. And i think the gift acceptance policy in particular, i think there’s often this conception that misconception, maybe that every gift is a good gift, but sometimes the strings that come with gifts for gift that aren’t actually easy to divest us can you be a little bit of a curse in disguise, i guess. And so it can be important to make sure that if there is a gift that isn’t no cash and there’s something that is more complicated or difficult to get rid of for the organisation or turned into value and that there’s some sort of process, we’re reviewing that gift and just making sure that acceptance really is in the best interest of the organization. Real estate comes to mind when you suggest that there may not be great. Real estate can be an enormously valuable and wonderful gift for non-profit on the other hand, i’ve had situations where it was a disputed strip of, like, four feet wide or so maybe ride, and it ran the depth of the properties. I was like two feet wide, one hundred feet deep, and somebody is trying to give it to us, you know, because it was denied and it was easier to give it to a third party and let us a trifle hassle with it. So there’s two ends of the spectrum, it can be magnificent, but around real estate in particular that’s, real estate’s, not the only kind of risky gift. But in particular you really you got to do your due diligence before your organization name goes on the deed for that property that let’s go to aa financials. You won’t take some time in the beginning of the year to do financial oversight. What do your thoughts here? Yeah, i think particularly for an organisation on a calendar year that has just wrapped up. You know, its last its last year. It could be a good time for the board and perhaps it a rather high level. But just take a look at what financials that has access to it. You know, the beginning of the year for the last year’s performance and then think about, you know, what needs to change in the future and then how it can arrive after those desired financial changes. So do any changes to the budget that’s been adopted for this coming here need to be made based on last year’s performance? Basically, just kind of taking stock. Obviously, reviewing the financials is, you know, an important part of board service and should be done more than just once a year. But i think reviewing it kind of that year and can be particularly important, i’m gonna have a guest next week. Diane leonard is going to talk about grant program, a grant calendar for the year, and one of the things that we’re going to talk about is timing your revenue with your budget when you expect when you’re expecting in her case, the grant revenue to come and make sure that’s appropriately timed so that you’re not, you don’t find yourself with cash shortfalls and a programming grayce program management, etcetera, timing those let’s see okay, oh, another thing with the financials to tony is that often you have boardmember zor even some gym staff members, they’re coming from just a range of backgrounds and have a variety of experiences, and sometimes not, you know, it’s not in everyone’s set of skills that they understand how to actually read financial statement something you could be really important as an organization to make sure that you have a process in place for providing some sort of basic level of training on reading financial statements, particularly for directors on denny cast members who don’t have that background, but who need to make sure that they understand the financial statements well, some people do it as part of an onboarding process with new employees or new directors and other organizations will set it up it’s kind of an annual or biannual sort of training that is available for anybody who hasn’t otherwise gone through it in the past elections. If you ah, if you’re going to be doing elections in the year, you want to make sure that you’re following your policy on elections, whatever your by-laws say, yeah, absolutely and, you know, we see sometimes organizations that have just always done their elections a certain way for years and years, and they’ve never taken the time to actually look back at what they’re by-laws actually say, and then one step further to make sure their current by-laws were actually in compliance with africa ble law right now, you’re by-laws were drafted twenty years ago it’s possible that the state law that governs elections and what has to actually be in yur by allies has changed, so can be appropriate to take a good look at what the legal election procedures are the requirements under the applicable law. Make sure your by-laws comply with that and then make sure you’re complying with your by-laws and it’s also kind of ties into the board meeting calendar we’re discussing a few minutes ago and making sure that if you do have elections that are required during this year that you have them scheduled in the calendar and notice that’s required in advance is also scheduled in the calendars that you’re not missing any deadlines, the risk there that he has some sort of disgruntled director or them voting membership organization and disgruntled member. If you don’t comply with the requirements of your by-laws or with law, then you could have potentially the decisions of the board or the or the members subject to challenge, and that just isn’t a good position to being from the organization we have just one minute left, aaron so let’s, let’s get teo, you want to review the articles and by-laws and are our purpose and mission statements? Yeah, and this is one of those things again that, you know, congested, good to counter for the beginning of the year. It was a good reminder. Take a look at what your articles say. The organization’s purpose is make sure whatever the bylaws say, it’s purposes is consistent with what’s in the articles and then take a look at what the organization is actually doing and make sure it’s still complies with the stated purposes. If the organization’s purposes have shifted somewhat over time, then it may be the right time to take a look your articles and by-laws and maybe make some appropriate revisions necessary. Okay, we’re gonna leave it there, aaron, thank you very much. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Don’t you have a great day? I pleasure. Aaron bradrick, senior counsel at the non-profit and exempt organizations law group, she’s at aaron bradrick, and the firm is at neo law group dot com, and her boss is jean takagi at g tack. So if you want to comment on aaron, all good comments, of course, then you could you contact gene. Thank you, erin, thank you for any happy new year. So long. Thank you again by this year’s border treat with greg cohen is coming up first. Pursuant, they can train you in a thoughtful plan to reach your twenty seventeen fund-raising goals. It’s a. What they have is basically a map to your best prospects. Strong relationships. It’s, a four week webinar, siri’s there’s one a week, and it’s called fund-raising like a boss. I’m going to skip the kick reference this week, not that i was asked to skip case germans, i mean, it’s, my show, i do whatever i want. I just i’m choosing not to make the cake reference this week, and this siri’s fund-raising like a boss, starts on january eighteenth, voice cracked again. If you can’t make the live webinars they have you covered, you give access to their archive of each of the four you’ll find the siri’s fundez like a boss at pursuant dot com quick resource is training and then webinar siri’s. We’ll be spelling spelling bees for fund-raising it’s fun philanthropy. I like that philanthropy, it’s corny, but i’m not even sure i thought of it. It’s. All these things are only good when you think of them otherwise, thes puns are distasteful and hated, but if you think of it, you know it’s it’s genius, i’m not sure if i came up with this with a, i’m not sure that i saw it on their site, anyway. Philanthropy. It’s spelling bee plus comedy plus concert plus dance plus philanthropy that equals we be spelling. So that means spelling bee plus comedy plus concert plus dance equals we be spelling minus philanthropy if you move it over let’s change sign, but we’re well, we want to solve, for we’d be spelling, so keep over everything, everything else over on the left side, so don’t move it over so those things equal, we be spelling. Check out the video, the video there. Three minute video explains the whole thing highlights one of their fund-raising events. The video is at we b e spelling dot com now for tony’s take two, all right, i’m wagging my finger a little bit. Ah it’s an occasional admonition that i make around charity registration, which aaron and i touched on. I wanted to say a little bit more about your need to be properly registered in each state where your solicit donations it’s a morass, it’s awful. I wish it didn’t exist lots of people we should did exist, but it does it’s a morass because every state has its own forms and timetables and fees and definitions of what’s a solicitation, whether it talking, email or texting or u s mail, etcetera. So i’m just urging you to stay. On top of it, it is work that i do if i can help you, let me know, but it can be managed internally as well. However you do it, stay on top of it, please, because you don’t want to be the next headline. The trump foundation had a lot of problems with that. I did a video on that bunch of months ago, like, was that october november trump foundations very embarrassed that you don’t want to be the next headline. Stay on top of that and that is tony’s take two got to send live listener love the live love goes out tio, new york, new york, multiple new york, lovett, multiple new york, new york ah, union, new jersey red across the the river’s over there, the hudson river, staten island, new york. Right across the other way, actually, union and staten island. You could get to union through staten island. If you go across the verrazano and then staten island, then you go across the outerbridge, you get to union, so i don’t know if you all do. You all know each other just because you’re connected by bridges and i don’t know, stat now. Is with us, and so his union, the u k is with us. We don’t know which country and uk or it zing gland it is england, sam says, is england? We don’t know the city can’t see it korea’s with us on your haserot but we can’t see your city, but we know you’re with us. South korea always very generous. Thank you. We got hoochie minh city, vietnam and grow now germany! Good dog live listen love also to oakland, california, new bern, north carolina and, oh then go in south into obregon, mexico live listener love to you and the other live listeners podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand now. Yes, it’s the new year we’ve gone from ten, two thousand twelve thousand it’s happened. I’m ready to say it it’s it’s often enough that i’m calling it twelve thousand over twelve thousand podcast listeners each week pleasantries to you. I’m glad you’re with us and there’s affiliate affections to our am and fm station listeners throughout the country let your station no, please, that you’re listening whenever they fit us into your schedule throughout the week, i’m glad you’re with us affections to our affiliate listeners and i’m also glad that i can welcome back greg cohen he’s, a senior associate at cause effective, where he has trained and coached on fund-raising and governance for the boards and staffs of hundreds of non-profits since two thousand six, for over thirty five years, he’s been helping non-profits, including starting up and leading many he’s at greg cause the organization is at cause effective and that cause effective dot or ge. Greg cohen, welcome back to studio. I’m so happy to be here. Thank you. Cool topic. You brought it up to me late last year and i love it because we haven’t focused on this board retreats, border treats this can be valuable if you do it correctly and it could be a disaster if you screw it up that’s, right? So let’s talk about doing it right first they got don’t do things, but but just a little motivation. What can we get out of these if if we do them correctly what’s going to happen for our board? Well, this really fouls well from erin’s comments about shaping. You’re bored with intentionality. This is show has prepared, you know i’m gonna it’s it just happens and it’s beautifully coincidence, yes. So there it was on the menu. Okay, thank you. Start interrupting. So what you can gain if you think about your board is forming a high performing team? A zahren said for many of the things that she talked about, there isn’t time within the typical board meeting, particularly for areas that require reflection like let’s. Look at if our mission is still relevant to the activities of the community that we’re responding to. Maybe you’ve added knew board people and you have members who haven’t really gotten to know each other, like on any team you want people to bond, you want them to have a shared conception of their purpose, and you wanna have some ways of operating together might be the agreement on that schedule, that board calendar for the year of how we’re going to conduct our business, and what do we want to accomplish relative to the needs of the organization? So the retreat is about taking more time to reflect without the daily pressures on those key areas of governance and on how the board should perform itself as a team. Take out the bigger picture all these bigger picture items that aaron was referring to. Absolutely being more strategic and less, you know, in the in the in the forest stuck, and i’m stuck in the woods, right? It can range from how has our community changed other new populations and needs? It could be what changes in our revenue mixed dewey anticipating that’s going to be on the minds of everybody with a new administration in washington. And how do we get ahead of the possibilities and plan in advance and planning in particular as a governance function is best done at a remove from the monthly board meeting where you have a lot to accomplish in the agenda? How do you like to do these offsite weekend? How long? Give us a little flavour for right? Well, so it all depends, of course, on how much you want to accomplish and the availability of of your board. Ideally, i would say offsite someplace nice, relaxing that supports the conversation and people can into relate comfortably and there’s room for breaking out in smaller groups weekends, because that gives you blocks of time and i think it’s hard to do retreat in less than half a day. And many retreats actually go a whole day. Some organisations are extraordinary and devote a saturday in a sunday to a retreat. That’s a little unusual, but i think the more you remove it from the day to day constant context, the more you’re going to encourage people to interact and think differently. Okay? She liked to see a weekend day, right? You’ll also avoid people calling into their office checking email, you know, i mean, they you know, yeah. There’s. More of those distractions. You can control the circumstance of the meeting. That air offsite, it’s. Just a wifi ofthe exact it, of course. Those other access, but okay. All right. So what you want fairly distraction free, right? I mean, this is important. This is important time. Okay? Of course. That’s also going to depend on budget you have to spend for this. Maybe a board members home. Have you seen that? Can that work? Yeah. First for a relatively small group that can work very nicely. Okay. If there’s place tio sit around and actually deliberate, you need something like a conference table set up, but home can work very nicely. First board on the smaller side. Okay, okay. Um this, uh, could have some value around orientation for new board members. How we hardly fit that in? Yeah, absolutely, from okay, a number of perspectives, usually during a regular board meeting, there isn’t time to set context for the items under discussion. A retreat allows senior staff and bored leaders to explain a little history to put an issue into into context for new board members so that they get a better map of the environment in which the non-profit is working. Secondly, it’s really important that board members get to know each other on a social basis and interact, particularly if they’re deliberating on hard issues. It’s really good if you’ve had the chance to talk to someone more informally, you know, a little bit more about their background, what they do about their family, personal time, that makes for a stronger team, and you want to build team building activities into a retreat to make sure particularly there’s integration of those new members into what might have been, you know, a pretty cohesive group beforehand. It’s hard for the newest person to break into a club where everybody seems to have special knowledge way don’t have to do ah, walking over hot, broken glass. I love that you do? Yeah, i’m talking about what is it like? It was drew people to our board. What am i doing wrong? No, but i mean there’s, no question, a cohesive team. And you want to have interpersonal relationships that go beyond the business that’s conducted in the two hour board meetings every however often month, quarter, whatever you want to get to know each other exactly. And that’s one way not everybody is very forward and offering their opinions to establish some safety in the room for a really meaningful discussion of an issue. If i don’t really know how i’m going to be received by the person across the table haven’t built up trust, i’m probably going to be a little inhibited, particularly as a new boardmember from from knowing that i can speak my mind. Yeah, comfort with comfort level with that. Is there any favorite exercise? You have that the around team building and he, uh, like you play a little game? Yeah, all the classic ice breakers that involve won a lot of interaction between the board members and to some revealing at revealing some. Aspect of someone’s personal life that one wouldn’t ordinarily discover in the board introduction. I cross dress, you know, friends. Exactly. Exactly. That could be something. Could be a great accomplishment. I want philip boardmember to know exactly. Okay. Alright. Eso bringing drawing people out of right there. Business. And what do you do for a living and having them seeing in their full personality? Not just there. Jacket and tie image at the table. Okay. Okay. Um, let’s. See what else? What else? What else could we could we do around these do in this? Well, so retreats offer an important opportunity to develop leadership among the board, and we think planning is really important. So i know when i was an executive erect the first time i did a retreat, i waited too long. And then i realized g i need someone to run this. And the week before, i called someone who was a facilitator and said, can you run my board retread on saturday? And he said, well, what do you want accomplish? And i said, well, that’s, what i’m hiring you for and i really i recognize how unfair that was now that i look back. Because with a good border treat, you think you you wantto builds a common idea of what you want to accomplish during the day. So we like to form a planning committee of board members and staff and then a sine preparation roles so that many of the board members, if not all, get a chance to lead a part of the discussion and ah, shared leadership. Yeah, exactly. And that models the kind of back and forth and deliberation that you want to teach your board meetings. So this is a chance in a plan fashion to say each of us can have a role in guiding the discussion among our peers. So, like you rotating facilitators, friends, well, it might be on topic. So you have each chair, the chair of finances going toe provide an overview of how we did last year in finance and what the challenges are coming up in this year and that might be heavily supported by a staff person. But the key thing is it’s a boardmember who’s articulating it and the message below the the direct messages each of us can master this you like to see a facilitator? I was ah, instead of the board chair running the retreat, you don’t want to see that. I’d like to see every member of the team be able to participate in a full way without having to do that facilitator role of kind of looking down in saying how’s, this whole group interaction going that’s very demanding. Okay, we want full participation of the executive director and the board chair in discussions and save them from the facilitation role. Okay, facilitator is an outsider. It could be i mean, sometimes for the staff person broke, you know? Could be yes, it could be a fourteen year old like me. Okay. Ah, of course we a cause effective love it when people hyre outside facilitators. But if you had it a skilled staff person but that person could play that role too. I usually for the team building. If i’m working with an organization that uses that in their program, i have a staff person coming and running exercise like the ones they run with their clients. For instance. I see. Okay, we’re going out for a break. Greg and i are going to keep talking about this year’s board retreat on. Ghost. Gonna ask him to talk a little about what cause effective. Does stay with us? Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation. Top trans sounded life that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i am his niece, carmela. And i am his nephew, gino. And i am the doting uncle brillo head sometimes called tony, at least over the dinner table. Um all right, i want teo, have you explain what cause effective does greg as consultants and non-profit itself? Because it’s an outstanding organization, i refer people to you when they ask questions that they and they need help that that i can’t give, i refer them to cause effect of what you people doing over there? Great. So first of all, we have been around for thirty five years, as you say, we’re a non-profit but were organized like a consulting firm and that we have specific engagements with clients, and we work together to find a way to fund that our focus is primarily on helping groups learn how to be more effective fundraisers in the area of relationship based fund-raising so not so much grantspace ship from government or large foundations or large corporations, but more that one to one kind of fund-raising typically when on organization wants to start raising money from individual donors, and that hasn’t been their emphasis, because maybe they got most of their funding from government of foundations. Now they want to diversify, they didn’t recruit aboard for that purpose and the board is saying, whoa, that wasn’t in our contract that’s when we step in and starting from where each organization is paint the dance steps on the floor that lead them to becoming effective in reaching out and building a sense of community among perspective and other donors that’s the most common type of referral that i’ve sent to you is someone is basically asking, how do we get to the next level? We’re all event driven, and we want to have individual donors, how do we do it? I send them to cause effective great. The other area that relates particularly board retreats is that we think boards are the vanguard of that individual relationship based fund-raising and the best motor motivation for a boardmember to go out and fundraisers to be is to understand the needs of the community and the mission and be driven to raise money. So the group has the resource is to fulfill that mission in the fullest way. So to do that requires really connecting every boardmember to the conception of the potential for the organization to realize its mission if it found the resource is cool. Thank you. Talk to them that you you do. You only work in the greater new york city area were primarily focused on new york city region because our work involves a lot of coaching and being in place. We like to say we embed ourselves with a client. So were present at board meetings that staff meeting staff trainings and there’s. A lot of trust building. So the work has tended to be done best when we are local within the tri state area. Okay, i don’t know what to say for the rest of the country. There are there are we do go out and speak and share our methodology at national conferences. Okay. Everything from the junior league. Teo bi annual conference for social change. You also have an excellent newsletter that i get that julie levine, the executive director, puts out. So, you know, you can sign up for the newsletter. This is all you’ll find. Because if that door okay, exactly. All right, let’s, circle back to the border, treat staff roll what’s the staff role in supporting this. You mentioned they might. They might be facilitating or maybe not facility, but leading cem. Session more supporting the board members to do that to lead those sessions. So i think staff always in relation to board is providing the legwork and context to board members to carry out their governance work so it might be collecting data and might be helping the board members identify what are the most important issues to be discussing in a retreat. Now, particularly exactly the partnership between the executive director and the chair is is always key. But you know, the development director might work with the head of the fundraising committee to say, what is it that’s going to be most helpful to emphasize? To get the board members particularly jazz for fund-raising in the coming year or get him ready for the gala are whatever are the key challenges in each area of governance for the year in the appropriate staff person who provides support to the board members in those areas, i will say, generally speaking, most board retreats on ly include senior staff there. Ah, sometimes there’s a portion where there’s joint board staff as portion of a retreat but really, i believe boards need their own time, so and their own focus. Oh! I’m not in favor of bringing in a lot of staff to a country of their own retreats. Or they might come in for a session exactly on dh, support that somehow and then depart. Yeah, that shouldn’t be here, right to have staff come in and talk about successes in their programs, to give boardmember sze in a nice taste of mission and to get to know a key staff person better even bringing a client for that purpose. But they come, they do their piece, and then they leave. Okay, okay. If we do this on a weekend saturday or sunday, do you like to see a dinner afterwards? Should we be asking people hang around for dinner or are people more likely to just leave when the business is concluded and not stay for the dinner? I i’d like to pull the board because if you have a board that has young children, for instance, they’re the boardmember probably less eager to skip dinner with the family on a weekend. If you have a board that’s older, they may be willing to devote more time and it’s lovely to have to finish with wood dinner together that i said, check in and see what the majority of the board feels. Okay, okay? You have some ideas about things that we want toe stay away from things teo avoid in our in our retreat buy-in you don’t want people doing a lot of reporting when that stuff that they could be doing in a regular meeting, right? So that’s a tendency to say, alright, this, as i say, we want to bring people up to speed and be on the same page, so we’re going to say the same thing to all of them in the room, but what happens is that they sit as passive recipients of that information, so better as you say, provide a report and then figure out how to structure a discussion that that brings in the latest information that you want people to absorb but make them do a little reading and then use that information in deliberation during the the retreat, i will say there’s an exception, there’s a portion of it of a retreat where providing information is appropriate, which is if you’re training for a new skill. So aaron mentioned more you mentioned providing the ability to read financial statements or something for us it’s typically fund-raising techniques like doing a practice, ask for money or practicing an elevator speech where there’s a piece of training involved and we’re really conveying information that’s appropriate for retreat, but for bringing people up to date on the daily activities of the organization. Save that for report and use the time when you’re reporting for the bigger stargazing issues. Okay, you also want to be judicious about what you include so that you’re not packing too much into the day and nothing gets adequate time. Exactly so ah, common issue is we didn’t do strategic planning this year. We need to get the strategic planning process done when we have everybody together, because we’re not gonna have together again in a room for five hours for the rest of the year, so let’s do fund-raising governance, strategic planning and, oh, by the way, we’ve got a bunch of other governance things that we didn’t do, i’m going to put it all, and then people feel overwhelmed and they don’t take away the key lessons well and everything. He’s done sloppy then examine those air such big issues, any one of them could could be a five hour planning planning session. Exactly. Okay, so so you got a pair it down to just a couple. So everything gets the attention that that’s, right? And i think some key years, their touch on touch on mission, touch on fund-raising touch on how the board is functioning in its overall governance, and then you can pick some issues that are specific to the group to focus on, even have a guest speaker who relates to ah, the area of mission for part of it. And the thing is to keep it lively, have it very participatory. I like to say a successful treat is one where people are disappointed that the day has come to an end and they say, why don’t we do this more often? Cool. Let’s. Wrap it up. We just have, like, thirty seconds left. You like to see good food? Absolutely. And wine to have wine, not overload the end. Yeah, absolutely wanted to paint at the end to celebrate the success is no that’s cool. Yeah, yeah, but if you’re bringing piela people giving their time on the weekend, you want to reward them with a with a pleasurable experience. No booze at lunch. Great going, senior associate itcause effective. You’ll find him at greg cause and again, the organization is cause effective and also at cause effective dot org’s. Thanks very much, greg. My pleasure. Good to have you back next week. Digital inclusion furthers your impact and your annual grants plan it’s with diane leonard. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com. A creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Gavin dollars are am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein of brooklyn. Thank you for that, scotty. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and the green. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s, not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for December 2, 2016: Find Fantastic Volunteers & Board Unity Or Dissent

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Liza Dyer, Gina Roberti, & Taryn Kearns: Find Fantastic Volunteers

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(L to R) Liza Dyer, Gina Roberti, & Taryn Kearns at 16NTC

Who is your ideal volunteer and what are your best strategies to find them? Our panel shares online and offline tips, including lots of resources. From the Nonprofit Technology Conference they’re Liza Dyer from Multnomah County Library, with Gina Roberti and Taryn Kearns from Reading Partners.

 

 

 

Gene Takagi: Board Unity Or Dissent

Should “shut up” be part of your board meetings? Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group (NEO), returns to weigh the pros and cons of dissent on your board vs. speaking with a singe voice. (Originally aired on 12/5/14).

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week. Urban stead. They messaged me. Caught your radio show today we’re a small non-profit in philadelphia. Found your show absolutely relevant and helpful. Absolutely relevant. Unhelpful. Not just relevant. Unhelpful. Absolutely. Thank you very much. They do urban farming with at risk youth in philadelphia, which i love that’s where i went to law school. Temple, temple university law school. Now the beasley school like the old, like that old show with mrs beasley the rag doll on was that a family affair with brian keith and mr french anyway? Ah, urban st they’re at urban stead and urban stead dot or ge? Thank so much, herb instead. So glad that you found non-profit radio and that it helps your work. What work? Congratulations on being our listener of the week. Urban stead. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into pica if you forced down my throat. The idea that you missed today’s show find fantastic volunteers who’s, your ideal volunteer. And what do your best strategy is? To find them, our panel shares online and offline tips, including lots of resource, is from the non-profit technology conference there lies a dyer from multnomah county library with gina roberti and taryn kearns from reading partners very literate group also bored unity or descent should shut up. Be part of your board meetings. Jean takagi are legal goal legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations. Law group returns to weigh the pros and cons of dissent on your board versus speaking with a single voice not originally aired on december fifth. Twenty fourteen on tony’s take to your trump challenge. We’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we be spelling dot com here is find fantastic volunteers from auntie si. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc the non-profit technology conference in san jose, california. This is also part of ntc conversations. We’re in the convention center in san jose. Naturally, where else? Where else would we be? And my guests? Yeah, session topic is fantastic volunteers and where to find them we’re going to meet the guests very shortly. First, have to do a shout out for the swag item for this interview, which is a very hot item appreciated by all three women on the panel. It’s ah, it’s, a red box it’s, a red box, one night rental only liza holds her movies longer than i’m a night, so this is no value to her. But gina and taryn love it, and it is from unleashed unleashed technologies. Red box promo code. One night, we added to the swag pile. And don’t walk away with it, ladies, alright, let’s, meet our guests. Liza dyer is first of all, she has the professional designation cv a certified in volunteer administration. She’s, a program coordinator for volunteers services at the multnomah county library and multnomah county, encompasses portland, oregon. And it’s, oregon not oregon. There’s no e at the end of oregon, i’ve learned that many times. Gina roberti is community engagement manager at reading partners. And taryn kearns is the americorps volunteer coordinator at reading partners. And i started closest to me. So liza is closest to me. And then it’s gina and then taran they’re topic is yes, the fantastic volunteers and where to find them. Let’s, talk down the end there, taryn. What is it that you ladies field non-profits or not getting maybe quite right with volunteers. Gino was in with the face is coming. What you got stuff i want you look it’s. Tough looking issues. You really like the question? Okay, what is it? Well, i’m sorry i directed for tarrant, but i’ll give you the follow-up if she doesn’t, she doesn’t lackluster job at it. Then you can you khun ad on? What do you mean she will do great. Karin, what are we not getting right about volunteers? I think there’s a couple things that we’re not getting quite right volunteers. Perhaps one is retention a lot of non-profits struggle with retaining volunteers, long term reading partners, we retain roughly thirty percent of our volunteers year to year doesn’t seem like a lot of volunteers. We do retain our amazing, but we’d still need to constantly invent new strategies to keep those volunteers engaged, excited and coming back for more to serve our population. You’re retaining thirty means you’re losing seventy percent of your volunteers each year. True? Yeah. That’s. The same as donorsearch a tous ticks no non-profits lose seventy percent of their donors each year. All right, gina, how did she do anything great? If anything, you’d like to add teo terrans assessment of what? We’re not getting quite right. Well, she did great. Okay, i actually think attention. So retention one problem a problem. I actually think we’re really fortunate reading partners where we have dedicated staff to focus on volunteermatch judgment. And i don’t think all non-profits have the capacity to have paid staff. So i feel like that’s you need people who are focused on volunteers and engaging them, appreciating them and developing the program. So i feel fortunate reading partners, but i know that’s not everywhere, and so i feel like that’s what we’re getting wrong in the nonprofit world do we have strategies to help people who aren’t devoted to volunteer management but have other responsibilities as well? We have some ideas for them. You came to the right place, we will have some okay way have twenty five years together, so okay, we do have some ideas, okay? Liza, anything you’d like to add? Yes, oh, something that really leads into a retention is that a lot of non-profits don’t know what they’re looking for in a volunteer, so they don’t know who they are actually trying to attract before they want to retain them. So they go out and they say, yeah, well, take anybody if you believe in our mission will take you, but you don’t really focus on what they’re skillsets is what their knowledge, their background, their availability. And so once you can do that and figure out who your ideal volunteers are, then you can work to engage them and retain. Them for the long term. But it starts with that first relationship. Excellent lead in let’s. Begin there. How how do we identify who the ideal volunteer is? Yeah, perfect. So something that you can do is create a volunteer persona and figure out who? Just like, when you do marketing personas or daughter personas, you can figure out what are the specific skills that i’m looking for and all of that khun lead into a position description. But you also need to think about. So if i am recruiting somebody who can teach computer classes, who are they? Where are they currently at? What is their availability like? So in portland, we have ah, few tech companies, not as money is down here in silicon valley, but we have a few and so, you know, do they have daytime availability? Maybe if they have a corporate responsibility program, they can come and and volunteer during their work time. But if not, well, then you kind of have to taylor, you’re programming maybe have your computer classes at days and times when volunteers are available. Okay, what should we be thinking about? A cz we build these personas? What attributes? Yeah, so you want to think about not just their knowledge and their skills, but also their beliefs or their values? Because if somebody doesn’t have alignment in terms of your organization, then you might not be a good match. So on the one hand, if i am recruiting a bunch of volunteers to stuff envelopes doesn’t matter that they believe in army mittens, maybe, maybe not. If i’m recruiting somebody to teach classes like, for example, citizenship classes at multnomah county library, i’m gonna want somebody who believes in the things that we do and making sure that they have a welcoming personality that can make sure that people feel welcome and also that they believe in the concept of intellectual freedom so people can come in, use the library. We’re not judging them. We’re not censoring anything. We believe people should have free access to information. You know, if somebody doesn’t believe that we’re not a good fit for that. Gina, are there other attributes we variables we can describe to our volunteermatch personas? I think liza covered a lot of really well, well, the age wouldn’t talk about age. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Well, i think it just varies per per volunteer opportunities like reading partners. We have one type of volunteer that we look for. So and for us, it’s fourteen, to retired is the age range which brought age, so we have a bigger audience that we can recruit for. But we also we have a volunteer opportunities monday through thursday between nine and five. So what liza was saying is, here in silicon valley, it works for us because there’s a lot of companies and they have huge corporate social responsibility departments who helped, you know, connect us to the companies, but, you know, oftentimes we’ll find high schoolers there over programmed and, you know, they’re only available between three and five or people who don’t have the same corporate culture of volunteerism they want to do evenings and weekends, and that doesn’t necessarily fit for reading part doesn’t work for you. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Other strategies for finding the ideal volunteer. Taryn besides the user, the volunteer persona. Did you talk about others in your your in your own? Do you programmed yet? Yes, you did. Okay. Ten. Thirty? Yeah. Were there other ideas? Are we exhausted that that part of it? No. I think that there’s so much to talk about a sfar strategies go if you want to get into that and, you know, separate from identifying the ideal volunteer. Okay, great. So based on each type of volunteer that you’re looking for, you need to really assess the community as faras. What kind of resource is either online or actually in person are around you, it’s helpful to be so aware of what schools are around? Maybe if any clubs meet at local coffee shops during the day. So as you get that information and create either a visual layout or just have it in your mind, you can start to target those locations for either long term volunteer opportunities or short term and fill those needs match those volunteers are available at certain times and have different interests with the needs of your organization. So what we’re gonna do? We’re gonna go into the coffee shop and start talking up reading partners and whatever organization is that they may be a strategy for the coffee shop. What if there’s a no solicitation sign on the door? Well, we’ll probably have to obey by that sign, but most places you feel like you go into a place and it’s a gut feeling that you get if they’re open. Teo connecting community members with local opportunity. Right, you’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Dahna other strategies? Anybody i don’t necessarily have to pick on you. You want to raise your hands? Anybody guidelines? Yeah. Another thing that you can do is you can survey your staff and find out what our who have been the most successful volunteers in the past. And so, if you say, pick your top ten percent that you would say, i want these people and i want to clone them, and i want to have volunteers at that level on lee, what is it about them? So is that their age? Are they retired? Are they high school students? So they have a lot of technical knowhow. Or is it somebody who has, you know, they are willing to just do what needs to get done? Like if you have a clerical volunteered, you don’t need somebody to go above and beyond necessarily. You just need them to be reliable, dependable and get the work done. So who are the volunteers who have been the most successful? And then you can use that to create your ideal volunteer. And then you, khun specifically target your recruitment for that type of person. And plus you this ideal volunteer that you want to clone? How do we find her? Yeah, you know, who does she know? How could she connect us to people like her? Absolutely right. Okay, okay. Excellent. We got other before we go online or not, i know you have online strategies to we’re not there yet. Other offline in real time. Face-to-face strategies for recruitment. These are excellent. I’d like to build upon that point you just made about how can you talk to someone that’s? Your perhaps ideal volunteer, maybe sametz already volunteering for you and get that person to talk to their friends about opportunities. Peer-to-peer volunteer recruitment is one of the most successful strategies because if you haven’t in, you know sametz already volunteering for going elearning organization and they can vouch for you going to tell you how awesome it is. You know, exactly when i’m teaching kids and their learning and it’s great, you’re much more likely to want to even just try it out and see if it’s a right fit for you, right? Yeah. And i think that using people’s personal networks leveraging those to create further connections is so useful. Excellent works for reading partners is that you get a lot of of your volunteers through testing volunteers with public latto personally. Okay. Anything else we should talk about? Offline. Real world? Yeah. It’s something that i saw it actually in a cafe in nashville, tennessee was a table number sign. You know, you place your order and you get a table number sign has we’re number the restaurant. It was in a restaurant, okay? Restaurant. And so i get my table number and it’s two or whatever and the rest of it is actually a kind of restaurant barbecue, you know, it was like it was like a healthy, you know, like begin. Yeah, s o they have those in tennessee as well. Although it was one of the one you were at the world. I was at the one and only you have it and you were at it. And so i get my numbers are in, and it has the number. But it also has a brochure about a dog rescue non-profit and it was specifically on the back of the tent, the number ten, it was. No, it was it was, you know, sticking up out of ah, like a metal holder and so on. Both sides that had information about volunteering a great partnership. Absolutely. Okay. Have any of you done that successfully with local businesses where they’ll they’ll basically let you have your solicitation materials? No, but like restaurant did mention that to us. And that is on my list of things that we will do next here in silicon valley. You got some places in mind? Yes. Okay. Okay. Next interview. I’ll update you. Okay? You’re presuming you’re gonna be back. Don’t don’t be presumptions will determine that in a couple minutes. Okay, uh, that’s. Excellent. You got ladies. You’re full of ideas. Anything else off line? I don’t mind if we talk more offline before we go online. Nothing else, really world. I think one more thing is another in person. Strategy is inserting yourself the organization into local community events. Say the community center is having a resource fair for non-profits maybe homeowners association or any other business to come and have a free table. Talk about what they do. Connect people that air interested from the community that’s a wonderful way. And often you, khun basically get a free space to just either recruit volunteers or spread organizational visibility. Once you create a presence for yourself and you start going to these types of events and meeting the same people over and over, they’ll say, ok, actually remember seeing this logo. I remember seeing your face, you’re here, and i like it, right, right on dh, there are community organizations, like maybe a chamber of commerce or something, exactly, uh, yeah, okay, karen, i don’t know if you know, gina agrees with very much of what you say, a lot of nodding, i say they work very closely together, we dio, she approves of everything i don’t you don’t not when she speaks, though, so you’re very disapproving of mentally, not idea, so you are okay, we believe you. Okay, okay. Okay, so let’s go online. Who wants to start? Gina, once you start, do you in the middle? Some online strategies you have for recruiting volunteers? Awesome. Fantastic volunteers. Yes. That’s a very good question. So i would say speaking for us at reading partners, we have actually always had our typical social media pieces of facebook, right? And this year our specific region has utilized twitter more. Andi, i think we honestly we have just skim the services to what we can do with our online recruitment on we definitely pay for facebook ads and things of that nature on dh has been extremely helpful. But it’s working it’s working. But you know what the problem is with that is that you need more money in order to make that happen. So it took a while to get some movement on. As soon as we got movement, we realized our budget is depleting. We had to go for the second movement. And now it’s like, what is it going to look like to continue that the ads and things of that nature. Okay, so so you were spending more than fifteen or twenty dollars? Yeah. Yeah, you’re okay. And what does that look like? Way have fourteen regions and we all need ads and our eight regions. And what does that look like for marketing budget? Ok, sorry, so facebook ads, but they’ve been valuable. You most definitely paid off. Yeah, yeah, liza, how about you and multnomah public? Yeah, so we utilise all our social channels as well. So facebook, twitter, instagram also flicker. We post photos there as well, and something that some of our volunteers participating is called a m c l hel p so m c l multnomah county library. Hel p is a selfie that you take while you’re helping or volunteering, right? So, yeah, so we every year we have a summer reading program and to encourage kids to read all year long. And we have eight hundred volunteers close to eight hundred volunteers for that program, ninety percent of which are under the age of eighteen years old, so ninety percent are under eighteen. Yeah, and those are our volunteers. That’s. You know the participants. We have over one hundred ten thousand participants just for the summer reading program. So we were looking for a way to engage our summer reading volunteers. Many of whom have smartphones and want to take selfies, and so we encourage them. Hey, take a selfie while you were at the library hashtag it this or, you know, put it on instagram and show your friends what you’re doing this summer, and so that could be a way to recruit volunteers and get them to you show their their other friends what they’re doing for the summer. What are we doing in the channels in these facebook ads or instagram? Whatever to advertise the the volunteer possibilities, what we what we saying? What are we showing, etcetera? A great regular facebook campaign reading partners, which each week we have a feature called thank you tutor tuesday we feature a picture of the tutoring question and the student they work with if both have photo permission don’t use real names in many instances, but it gives a glimpse into either of them working together or them doing something fun together. Maybe during a spirit week with cem, funny props of what it looks like for them to be volunteers, and also matched that with a quote from them about their volunteer experience that lets them speak from their own perspective and give people that do follow us on social media is chance to say okay, maybe i could do this and work with a student that looks super happy and keep with their tutor. Right? Must be other stuff we could talk about online before we before we go to the next topic. What else? Yes. Oh, at melanoma counting library. We have a monthly volunteers spotlight, which is not a new thing. Many organizations have monthly voluntary spotlights to showcase what their volunteers were doing, and what that is is it doubles as both a recognition tool and a recruitment tool. Because you are recognizing the volunteer by saying, hey, you are so great that we want to talk about you and we want to post you know, this blogger on on our website, and then we share it on our social media channels, but also when other people see that they see oh, that’s, what a volunteer does who you know is teaching a citizenship class or is delivering books toe homebound patrons. I’m interested in that not just learning about somebody else doing that, but maybe i can do that, too. And so it doubles. Is recognition and recruitment excellent, excellent. All right, i like, uh, thank a tutor tuesday. Gotomeeting every partners your own hashtag was that your idea? I think it was a collective decision. Okay, i like i like a little rations. So on this show, i ii send live listener love because show street live, i have podcast pleasantries for the podcast listeners. I’ve affiliate affections for the am and fm station listeners, you know, so i do tony’s take, too. I’m over the moon with, as listeners of the show will know, with a liberation. Okay, uh, well, should we go? There we go offline. Anything else? What? I got online on the networks go online network. So good. I want to say, i don’t know if we even mention this, but we definitely use that reading partners, you know? Volunteermatch and, you know, volunteermatch croup, mint websites get amount of our two shot out. Some of the ones that you use a helpful idea. Why am i drawing a blank? So we definitely is craigslist volunteermatch is an idealist, idealist, idealist. We’ve done volunteer center, which is more local to the francisco bay area, but we’re on many and all, especially more local, more local, you know, centered silicon valley pages. Okay, that’s been a huge help over those who know where to go or choose to go to those kinds of pages for volunteer opportunities right way, use volunteermatch and also hands on greater portland, which is part of the hands on network through points of light and so hands on greater portland is more focused on the portland metro area. Volunteermatch of course, you can search through, you know, different areas, but is more national. And so both are great because with volunteermatch if you get people who moved to portland, we have a lot of people moving to portland, then they already know about volunteermatch from their past community, and so they just switched to portland, and so we find a lot of people who moved to the area are looking through volunteermatch postings and finding us, and even if they’re not interested in the specific position that we’re recruiting for, they will then be drawn to our website, find something else, apply and then become a volunteer. Yeah, you know, i want to mention one more that is it’s probably giving us some success because it’s fairly new it’s next door and for when you’re trying to engage the community when a a current volunteer for us, lives in the community in which we’re serving and they post about it it’s that peer-to-peer but of a larger network of community members that maybe we’d never even touched, which has been a really cool thing to try out. It’s cool, it’s cool. What next? Next door next door? Yeah. Okay. All right. Go. Another one that i haven’t used for recruitment yet, but i have scene people who are seeking volunteer. Opportunities uses read it. So i have a google search alert for anything mentioning volunteermatch portland, oregon and it’s just a way to be aware of what’s going on in the area and sew something will come up and somebody will say post on reddit for the portland read it general think gina likes your ideas about to put it in her notes way steal the best ideas, okay? And and so they you know, they’ll post hey, i’m looking for a volunteer position where can i go? And then people talk about hey, you should try the oregon food bank. You should try free geek, which refurbishes, you know, older computers and gets him into the hands of people who need them. And so those air probably the two that i see most often is is the oregon food bank and freaky, but then other ones will say, oh, well, i’m really wanting to volunteer at an environmental organisations so somebody might recommend friends of trees or something like that, so yeah, and that’s another thing is that with oregon food bank, you can. I’ve personally volunteered there, so i’m a huge fan. I had a birthday party there. I had a fallen bir birthday where i volunteered and then ones on the other side, i think of the first has to be mine, to be funny calling peer-to-peer and so, yeah, so volunteering at the oregon food bank, posting a healthy on twitter and instagram, and then we went to a place called oregon public house, which is a non-profit pub in portland and had beer eso with any of those aiken then go online and say, hey, have you tried oregon food bank? Because they’re great and here’s, why? All right, let’s, just move. Teo some of the partnerships, i think my voice just broke moved too. But thirteen years old. But partnerships you talked about finding and cultivating partnerships. Now we just touched on his very lightly. We’re talking about the possibility of what i mentioned chambers of commerce when you were talking about local organizations. Is there more we can say about finding and cultivating these partnerships? To find volunteers who wants to go wants to volunteer to talk about partnership volunteering opportunities? I can certainly speak briefly more gina’s area of expertise. She’s, right? I shouldn’t say anything quite the experience cultivating partnerships, but it’s important, teo follow-up i don’t know if you need to call it a strict list of partnership planning steps, but haven’t idea of first what you can offer or what your strengths are as an organization, then see what that potential partner can also offer you it’s making sure the relationship is mutually beneficial. If you want to move forward with more of a formal agreement in the future, make sure both parties are really going to get what they want out of it and along the way, sorry, go what types of organizations are we talking about? You have some examples? Yeah, we have one of our strongest partnerships within the silicon valley region of reading partners is with the department at san jose state university here, locally it’s child in the adolescent development and their students who go through several different classes learning about various stages of child development, and they come to us. We have a program tailored to their needs as far as a service learning requirement, and their program it’s little bits is actually tailored to our curriculum and tutoring so local college you could look at college university another example of successful partnership. Organization? Yeah, new partnership we have just going on is with actually a food truck collective that’s all over the basement. Portland. I know, right? Okay. Great terminology around trucks, which you’ve gotten since i was there, but a cluster. What was it? A pod? A pod, right. That’s right apart? Yes, i heard that. It’s a cluster of trucks. You don’t call it a cluster or collection? You call it a pod, but their carts there lorts their carts, not truck that’s, right? That’s why i’m getting that wrong to not trucks the cards, but you would never say i’m going to the part of cards. You would just say i’m goingto just like on the pot. I mean, you might say that, but i wouldn’t wait. Don’t have carts here in silicon valley. Well, their truck’s, but they call them courts, owe their trucks. You put your right thumb and there’s a lot of a lot of times. They’re trailers that really there that you can’t drive them. They just have to hitch onto something. But either way, they’re called the coal carts. I’m going to the cards or the pod, but not the part of cards. Not say that you would be laughed out of portland. Okay, um, we gotta wrap this up in a few. Actually, this one fast. All right. Well, guy’s got about another minute or so let’s focus on the partnerships. What was the one you were just mentioned? The new one you were starting at? It’s called off the grid. Food trucks and group. Yeah, they have a very important emphasis on community in their markets. So we’re able to get an in with one of their markets in san jose. And we’re gonna have a regular appearance at there sunday. Food truck gathering its great. Let me turn the liza. You have any, uh, successful partnership type organisations? Yeah. So, atmel, uma county library. We don’t have too many formal partnerships in terms of volunteer, but we do reach out to our there’s, a local cohort cohort of library students from emporia university. And so they meet here in portland. And so we can send information about different volunteermatch positions that we have for them, and then they can come and get engaged. There’s also? Ah. Library media specialist program. I believe at portland community college. And so we can easily reach out to that college. Okay, so look, a civic organizations is tearing. You were saying like minded organizations where there are potential volunteers. All right, you’re gonna wrap it up. There are ladies cloudgood some excellent unison. Amazing, remarkable panel. Okay, liza dire. I have to turn. I know should with multnomah county library and know that m c l but she’s a cva so divided volunteered ministrations and the program coordinator for volunteers served asses and next to her in the middle is gina roberti, community engagement manager at reading partners and taryn kearns americorps volunteer coordinator also at reading partners. Ladies, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Excellent. Lots of ideas. That’s a good resource is do i love the tools? Durney martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc sixteen the sixteen. Ninety cf courses the hashtag but it all stands for non-profit technology conference in twenty sixteen at the san jose convention center thank you so much for being with us board unity or dissent coming up first pursuant fund-raising like a boss that’s therefore part webinar siri’s starting in january if you like to bake, you could fund-raising like a cake, boss. Your master discovery questions major gift solicitations, prospecting and prioritising and getting your board to fundraise oh, that’s, critical board fund-raising you can’t make all four sessions, no problem, they have you covered. You’ll get the recordings info is at pursuant dot com slash training slash webinar and again it’s called fund-raising like a boss, we’ll be spelling spelling bees for fund-raising are you kicking off millennial engagement in our new year twenty seventeen do it with stand up comedy, live music, dancing and raising money and spelling. Check out the video at we b e spelling dot com now tony steak too. First, i did your trump challenge video. Now this week i have your trump challenge reduction director’s cut and the director’s cut you will find that toluca, the jack russell terrier and i have a challenge for you at your end going forward based on what tallulah and i believe might be in store under a trump presidency to lula has very good insight wait and that’s why i enlarged her part in the reduction director’s cut version both videos, the original and the director’s cut or at toni martignetti dot com and that’s tony’s take two here is jeanne takagi with board unity or descent. Jean takagi. You’re out there, right? I am, honey, i know you are. You’re the managing attorney of neo, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, that’s still true, right? Absolutely. And fire yourself, all right, and you also still edit the popular non-profit low block dot com, and on twitter, you’re at g tak gt a k right, all correct, okay, just like the check. Double check the biographical information every every once in a while. And plus, being an attorney, i don’t like to ask questions that i don’t know the answer to, so i knew that was all correct. All right, gene, we’re talking about unity and dissent on your board this arose from, although we’re not going to nit pick the details of this, but this arose from a university of virginia proposal that that board members silence their descent and there was a little bit shocking for some people to read in the paper when they read about ebba talking about so sad, discouraging or actually prohibiting dissenting board members from publicly expressing their view. And that was just a proposed policy that somehow got released to the public, and some people were very, very upset about it thinking of it a censorship um and that caused them once, you know, the public was made aware of it. There was all sorts of articles in the washington post and other newspapers about it, and they rescinded that part of the proposal, but they kind of added a more common governance spot after about well, you can talk about your descent publicly, we won’t. We won’t chill that from happening, but once a decision is reached by the board. The board members each have a responsibility to ensure that the board’s actions and decisions are successfully implemented. So they really downgraded their initial thought. But it was a a source of a lot of controversy at the time. And i think it’s a really interesting subject. Yeah, i love that. Some dissenter released to the public, the non dissenting policy hyre and that there that’s interesting at virginia. I just this is just a small detail, but they call their board the board of visitors. I thought that was interesting. Hey, i i i do it. Well, i don’t know what the historical artifact of that is, but it is their governing body. Yes. This’ll all go back to the days of this is from thomas jefferson, i think is the founder of via university that’s a little bit ironic and some people’s mind about, right? You know, quenching public dissent? Yeah, this statesmen who spoke out of, um and they’re doing just the opposite. But askew said it turns out they’re not doing it, that that part of the proposal was was killed. There is, in fact, value in diversity and dissent. On aboard, right? Yeah, absolutely way need tohave open discussion. And in a lot of governance, experts will say having a culture that encourages open dissent is actually one of the most important indicators of bored effectiveness, the opposite being, you know, usually a culture of group think and rubber stamping one person’s decision and all just sort of reinforcing, you know, the first point of view that comes up rather than actively debating and thinking about, you know, critically thinking about what would be the best decision of the board amongst all of the possibilities. So so every board vote should not be one hundred percent in a unanimous in fact, it’s you’re saying it’s a good sign if there’s there is disagreement. Yeah, but, you know, from from time to time and that’s, you know, a pet peeve of mine and many other lawyers that work with non-profit boards to see by-laws that say board actions will only be taking taken if there is a unanimous vote in favor of aboard actions. That’s really just chills. You know, the board from discussing, you know, individual boardmember from discussing their dissenting opinions. That’s part of some by-laws of some organizations that has to be a one hundred percent vote. Yeah, after my gosh, she is an uncommon to find consensus. A xero required vote, teo get bored. Action. Well, but consensus could be an easy majority or two thirds or something, but but you see it often that it’s one hundred percent unanimous requirement. Yeah. It’s not uncommon. I wouldn’t. I would i would say, you know, it’s, not the majority of by-laws permit that, but certainly i’ve seen several that that require one hundred percent consensus vote in order to take aboard action, and that is to promote their culture. What they feel like is a culture, a beauty. Mmm. All right, there are ways of dealing with the descent in a in a board discussion on dh valuing the honesty and the openness and the diversity if you just if you just manage and facilitate the conversation yeah, you know, you’re absolutely right. And i think it takes a really skilled chair of the board or whoever is the presiding officer at the board meetings to really encourage that. That dissent without letting it, you know, devolved into infighting and ah, and, uh, a culture where nobody wants to be there, and everybody is apprehensive about showing up at the next board meeting because there is that culture of stress and tension and disagreement. So it is a bit of a balancing act, and i think it actually like many, many things take some exercise. The effort, teo, create that culture of open dissent where, you know, people can descent. This takes place in families too, doesn’t it? Tony, especially in italian cultures, open dissent and at the dinner table, but always mine afterwards. Yeah, i went after the thanksgiving dinner at my cousin’s house. When, when i was walking down the sidewalk in getting into the car to drive home, i realized how quiet it was. I felt like i had been in a springsteen concert for, like, four hours. And then i was back at home and my ears were almost ringing. Yes. So there’s a healthy descent at least among my cacophonous family. Yeah, for sure and my part of the family. And i have ah, through marriage, some italian family as well. And yes, it is this healthy dissenting atmosphere, but it’s very vibrant it’s encouraging of discussion. Um and at the end of the day, they can move forward. So, you know, creating that culture is not necessarily the easiest thing, especially for non-profit board, who may not meet so often like the way family gets to meet andi, everything gets remedy, you know, the next time they have dinner, but when you meet, like once every other month or once every quarter on and that’s, the only time you see these people, you may be a little hesitant about, you know, starting a fight by by presenting a dissenting views. So i think it takes practice. And, you know, one way you might practise is and there’s some dangers to this as well. But in short, formal, just say creating a doubles advocate for a particular issues, you know, in a particular issue, maybe where the board all sees the thing, you know, in the same light and would all vote unanimously in favor of it. Maybe at that time assigning one person to just raise issues and take the other part and encouraging discussion to see what happens. And you may end up with still the same opinion, but ah aboard that’s learned to discuss things a little bit more. Vigorously and critically look att issues and weigh conflicting viewpoints. There’s a policy governance model from interestingly, from a married couple, the carvers that has some very good ideas for howto manage this whole process and maintain good governance. Yeah, and they’re they’re aspects of the carver policy governance model that i really like and and it is a model that encourages discussion, even passionate disagreement, i think they say to rip represent the diversity on the board, hopefully the diversity in all kinds of ways, on the board, with different perspectives in different ways of looking at things. But i think part of the model says is once you’ve made a vote, you know whether it’s a unanimous vote or if it’s a five for a slim majority vote and that’s enough to take board action, the ceo and the staff have got to treat it the same way. It’s a board decision in favor of going a certain direction and that’s what needs to be implemented. And so the carver model goes on to say, you know, if a boardmember two cents, you know, with that, well, you should absolutely record that descent. So in a five, four vote, you’ll record those who have presented their dissenting opinions, not necessarily by name. However, if they don’t want their name to be to be entered into there, if they’re minutes or public, they may feel that that might chill future board discussion if they’re not in the majority. So, you know, it could just indicate that there was a five four vote and anybody who wants to be on record as dissenting should have their name recorded otherwise, maybe not, but if if the if you do disagree with it and you want to go out and publicly say it, we don’t chill that process, you let them say that, but they’ve got to balance that with a duty of confidentiality, so they have to make sure that they’re not releasing confidential information out there. They have to be careful of not chilling board participation in future discussions. So if they go, you know, john smith disagreed with me, and he came up with all sorts of terrible arguments in favor of that. Well, that’s not going to be a healthy way to descend, you know, naming out individual board members who disagreed with you and, you know, taking down their argument without the chance for them to present the side. And then i think what’s important about the carver model. The balance is that if a boardmember disagrees, they should go on to say, on the record, whoever they’re speaking out to in the public, that the process used by the board with proper so they disagreed, but they were in the minority. But the process used was proper to get all those things out there and that hopefully we’ll create a good culture of open dissent and ability to expect dissenting views in public without harming the organization. All right, there was a lot in there that this is getting into the details. Very interesting of of good governance, right? I mean, a lot of times we talk about good governance and it stops with well, you should have a conflict of interest policy. You have a whistle blower policy document retention. But this is getting into the process of board meetings that create good governance and proper oversight. Yeah. And you know, onboarding typically take actions that board meeting. So how boardmember things air run? How their chairs, what type of discussions you choose toe have. Board meetings when in the meeting do you take your, you know, place your most important discussions? Maybe it shouldn’t be approving the board minutes right at the front where everybody, you know has the energy to vigorously discuss important issues. Maybe that gets put in the back. So prioritizing what you’re goingto, you know, discussed at the board meetings and creating that culture of open descent and possibly allowing everybody toe argue different points beforehand, circulating that in the board agenda and sort of meeting prep materials would be a very good and healthy way to get bored to be able to discuss the most important things to the organization because boards are ultimately in charge of the organization. You mentioned the agenda, and this ah, this carver policy governance model, which, by the way, you’ll find it. Carver governance dot com has something to say about the agenda who should be creating the board agenda because that could that could be a source of of dissension also is what belongs on our agenda for the month or whatever. For the for the meeting. Yeah, that’s, that’s absolutely true. I don’t actually, i’m not familiar with how, how carver’s model treats who will create the what’s? What typically done is is bored chairs. After conferring with the executive, the executive director’s, ceo of the organization developed the agenda. But i think knowing what i do about policy governance, it is openly encourage other board members to chime in as the chair developed the agenda. Ah, figure out what topics are most important to the organization and figuring out at that point how to proceed with finalizing the agenda and the meeting materials beforehand on dh that’s, very consistent with what carver recommends in there in there model, which is that the board developed its agenda. Not that the ceo create the agenda for the board. Yeah. You know, that’s, uh, i don’t wantto go too far off, but that’s sort of the problem with when the board acts by written consent because whoever drafts that that consent and circulates it is possibly planted just one point of view and argued only one side of it. And that can be very persuasive. And nobody has had a chance to look at the other side. So developing an agenda with only one point of view can make things look very, very. One sided in developing organisation melkis rubber stamped the chairs decision. Okay, we’re going to go out for a break for a few minutes. You mentioned a consent agenda for the break you’re in, george, in jail for that, and we come back. I’ll offer you a quick, a quick parole stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m dana ostomel, ceo of deposit, a gift. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’ve got more live listener to love to send out ottawa on ontario, canada, ottawa, the capital city of canada welcome live listener lived to ottawa in china we’ve got coming. Ni hao my first guest, gail bauer, did some work in china for the great wall foundation. I believe it is. I know she did work with a couple of clients in china. We’ve got hanoi, vietnam, we’ve got turkey, germany and seoul, south korea on yo haserot turkey and germany. I’m sorry, we can’t see your cities your mask, but we know that your country is represented live listener love to you and naturally podcast pleasantries, everybody listening in the time shift wherever the heck you maybe arjun takagi the you didn’t actually say the phrase consent agenda. I put that together for you and locked you up in george in jail. But you said consent and you were referring to agenda, so i’ll give you half a break. So could we explain what consent agenda is sure, andi, you know, i didn’t realize that i did not say that i thought i was accused and i was guilty, okay, but i don’t think we’re buy-in consent agenda. Is basically a group of routine, typically procedural, self explanatory, noncontroversial decisions that the board has to make, like approving the minutes of the last meeting, approving committee actions that were very non controversial and it’s done all in one action. So rather than going through them one by one and having a lot of discussion about each one if they don’t deserve that discussion, it’s just something that should have been read before the meeting it’s all presented on the consent agenda, one person moves to adopt it, it gets seconded, approved and then it’s done and you don’t have to spend, you know, half to your board meeting talking about thes routine on controversial board actions that everybody should have read beforehand and instead of, you know, having them read it at at the meeting and wasting everybody’s time. Thank you very much. Probation granted a parole parole granted program when how do we know when a boardmember has gone too far? You suggested that its fine for board members to speaking descent as long as they’re they’re not speaking on behalf of the board and they and they say that. But when does the boardmember go, too? Far, yeah. I wish i had one easy answer to that. And i think i mentioned before, you know, balancing against being a balancing that openness against the duty of confidentiality. So not giving away any confidential information and also not harming any individual on the board or sabotaging, if you will, the board action that ultimately was taken by majority vote, even though you were dissenting on it. So if you try to unwind and unwrap it, that that’s probably not acting in the best interest of the organization could harm the organization and their four year breaching your fiduciary duties. But exactly when when you cross the line is not always clear, for example. And if you thought the boarded approved an unlawful action, both well, it’s going to be you do need to speak out. And at worst case, you need to bring it to the attention of ah, the authorities in much more common cases. Maybe it’s something if you if you feel very strongly about that, you send a private letter out each boardmember and the ceo. And if somebody asks you about it, you just say you disagreed with it vigorously. But the process used again was proper, and a majority voted the other way. And if you really can’t live with that decision, think about resigning from the board, okay, the private letter to the individual boardmember is that’s an interesting approach, but that’s discreet but still could be very firm, right? And i think it allows you to state your argument in a way that you can get all your points across the way you might not be able to do at a board meeting when you know everybody’s interrupting each other and there’s this vigorous discussion amongst, you know, five, ten, fifteen, twenty people all trying to chime in in a short amount of time. Would you be asking if you felt that strongly about something for the board to reconsider its decision and have the discussion again at another board meeting? If it’s the type of decision that can be reconsidered, maybe it’s something that’s going to be? Ah, a strategic ah plan for the future and not a contract that has already been signed on dh where you can’t back out of it. If it’s something that far off enough that the board decision can be reversed in the organization can change course without any harm, and then yes, i think the board can reconsider it if if they didn’t get a chance to hear your arguments, perhaps because the board meeting cut short and didn’t give a chance give you the opportunity to put out all your points that you thought were very important, sending it in a board letter, at least to the chair of the board. But but possibly toto, all board members and and the executive might might be the right thing to do. Do you see money? Occasions? And we just have about a minute and a half left where an outside facilitator could be valuable for for these these kinds of difficult discussions in board meetings. Yeah, you know, i think when when the board starts to disagree each other and creates this culture, not only have open dissent but of open ah hostility, yeah. So just where they can stand each other anymore, i think you really need to get a facilitator to help. Ah, figure out the process and howto get boardmember to understand their different viewpoints. You also have tio select board members very carefully, not only for for their diversity and skills and backgrounds, but also for their ability. Teo operate in a culture that that encourages dissent on where they they’re not afraid to speak out, even if they may not be in the majority view point. That’s, that’s really important in our democracy on, certainly in aboard as well. My voice just went up like a high school girl like you often voice cracked like a fourteen year old, and i do that all the time. No, but it is very important. That’s, a very, very interesting point two to bring in the recruitment process, the not only the skill that you might be seeking real estate attorney, whatever, but fitting into the culture of the organization and the culture of the board. Yeah, i i think that could even be a valid statement for the organisation when it when it, you know, think about all of the valleys that it wants to to promote is encouraging dissenting views as a core governance or organizational values. Okay, jean, we’re gonna leave it there. I want to thank you very much. You will find jeans, blawg at non-profit law blogged dot com and on twitter, you’ll find him at g tack again. Jean, thanks so much. Thank you. You have a happy holiday. Thank you very much. You two we’ll talk next month next week seven security pitfalls. They’re not sexy, but they are very important. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com ah, creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Gavin doll is our am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez, and this cool music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything people don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff sort of dane toe add an email. Address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge. Somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. 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