Tag Archives: fiscal sponsorships

Nonprofit Radio for January 9, 2023: Gene & Amy’s 2023 Outlook


Gene Takagi & Amy Sample WardGene & Amy’s 2023 Outlook

Our esteemed contributors, Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward, reveal what they’re thinking about for the New Year. We’re talking about Twitter, donor advised funds, fiscal sponsorship, and illegal activities. Gene comes to us from NEO Law Group, and Amy is CEO of NTEN.

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[00:02:06.02] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast, Happy New Year. I hope you enjoyed your time off. I hope you’re looking forward to our New year and I have more on that in in Tony’s take two. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with sal pendulum fractious if I had to hear that you missed this week’s show, Gene and Amy’s 2023 Outlook, our esteemed contributors, Gene Takagi and Amy sample Ward reveal what they’re thinking about for the new year. We’re talking about twitter donor advised funds fiscal sponsorship and illegal activities. Jean comes to us from neo law group and AMY is ceo of N 10 on Tony’s take to take in this new year. What a genuine pleasure to have both Gene Takagi and Amy sample Ward with me us together. Substantively, it’s not just 1/50 anniversary show. No, this is not the 650th show. This is not july of 2023 Gene and Amy are with us to talk substance together and cross talk as well, you know them, but they are esteemed contributors and they are do their proper introductions, jean is our legal contributor and managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in san Francisco. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and he’s at G. Tac. Welcome to the New Year’s show, Gene,

[00:02:13.49] spk_1:
thank you Tony great to be here and great to be here with AMY especially,

[00:02:34.00] spk_0:
absolutely yes, a genuine pleasure with AmY sample Ward, who is Ceo of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor, their most recent co authored book is the tech that comes next about equity and inclusiveness in technology development. They’re at AMy sample Ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward, Amy, Happy New Year! Welcome to the New Year’s show.

[00:02:42.26] spk_2:
Thanks. It feels like maybe we’ll revisit the intro if you’re saying our twitter handles and then we’re about to talk about what’s happening over at twitter. But you know, that’s all part of what’s to come and

[00:02:54.58] spk_0:
absolutely could end up being uh, mastodon.

[00:02:58.61] spk_2:

[00:03:08.98] spk_0:
see about that. Absolutely. All right. We, um, we are going to start with Gene, um, to talk about Gene, you’re concerned about some, some legislative potential changes around donor advised funds.

[00:04:09.26] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, it’s the donor advised fund area is probably one that most of your listeners are kind of familiar with because they’re the fastest growing area of charitable giving over a trillion dollars now held by donor advised funds. And that is huge, growing much faster than private foundations. And, you know, they make up some of the biggest charity charities in the country, I think, Um, possibly half of the top 10 maybe, um, maybe don’t advise from sponsoring organizations and several of those associated with financial institutions. Um, so like a Fidelity or vanguard flop Goldman Sachs morgan Stanley. Um So, you know, there’s been some heat about, well are these really charities, are they charitable giving? And the answer is yes, they are charities, even though they are associated with financial institutions. But that heat has led up to people going, well, what is the money doing? What is that $1 trillion dollars doing in these donor advised funds? Are the and

[00:04:19.50] spk_0:
this has been percolating for years

[00:04:21.88] spk_1:
and this

[00:04:28.85] spk_0:
began on the Senate, the Senate Finance Committee. Uh It was one of the Senate committees. Uh this has been coming up for years around the money parked in donor advised funds and not getting to 501 C3 charities.

[00:04:40.03] spk_1:
Yeah, I think starting with Senator Grassley at the Senate Finance Committee chuck

[00:04:44.91] spk_0:
Grassley. Right? Yes. So

[00:04:52.91] spk_1:
it’s been people have been talking about it but don’t advise funds continue to go up on this exponential growth or where they just keep getting used more and more often. Oftentimes by, you know, some of the very, very ultra wealthy individuals and there’s some heat about that too, about why do we have so many ultra wealthy individuals who can control, you know what charities are doing, who can control our politics,

[00:05:11.74] spk_0:

[00:05:34.10] spk_1:
that’s all part of the same story. But because of that, you know, there’s been some pushback and some legislation suggested and now sponsored and introduced, well I should say introduced into Congress, but it’s not actually been a bit on a bill that has a formal sponsor that’s before anybody other than a committee right now looking at it. And that’s called the accelerating um, charitable efforts act or the Ace Act. And that’s up, uh, in front of some congressional members and a committee right now. And that has all these reforms to donor advised funds to

[00:05:51.98] spk_0:

[00:05:53.21] spk_1:
sort of mitigate some of those problems of the warehousing of wealth, um, and, and money not getting out to charities as quickly as some people would like. But there are some, you know, there are pros and cons to what all that involves, but it’s good for people to sort of be aware of it.

[00:06:09.19] spk_0:
Okay. Be paying attention to this. Um, now, when at least when I was in 6th and 7th grade, we used to learn that an act becomes a bill and a bill becomes law after it’s signed. But so thank you for making the distinction. Uh, all right. So, so this doesn’t have any sponsors yet there, it’s proposed like it’s, is it in a committee?

[00:07:51.29] spk_1:
It’s it’s in a committee right now. The chances are while I’m not a great prognosticator of what happens on Capitol Hill and I’m not, I’m not based in Washington. I will say what I’m hearing from people who are, is that it probably doesn’t have a good chance of passing right now. So it’s unlikely to see changes now, but this is a growing issue as you mentioned, tony that’s been percolating for, for years and just getting more and more attention. So provisions of the act, which is probably the overall is pretty complicated and we won’t go into the technicalities here that would bore your listeners, but it’s complicated. And for part of that reason there’s not sort of universal, like the nonprofit sector, all wants this to be passed? No, there’s like people on both sides of this issue. And because of that, I think, you know, um, prognosticators who are more informed to suggest that this probably won’t pass as is, are probably right, but there are aspects of it that could find their way in other bills. Um, so that’s sometimes how laws are passed. They don’t advise when laws passed through the pension protection act, not necessarily think those are related, but they can slip their way in. So just sort of pay attention to all of these, you know, movements around wealth and power and what that means to our, um, our charitable sector and how donor advised funds are being used. Something just to, to look at. And there are several organizations who are advocating on either side of this.

[00:08:38.91] spk_0:
Okay, cool, alright. We’ll pay attention to donor advised funds, uh, in terms of wealth and, uh, you know, 88 individuals, uh, controlling, or certainly heavily influencing the charitable priorities. That that’s for, uh, we’ll have to do that on another show. Um, fiscal sponsorship is uh is something else you want us to look out for? Just just define it you know in in its basics so that everybody has the common understanding that we’re starting with.

[00:09:32.42] spk_1:
So the issue with fiscal sponsorship while it is also growing very very quickly. Um And the nonprofit sector might be aware of it but sort of the outside world might not really know what that means. And generally what it means is that there are people who have a charitable project but don’t have a charity entity with 501 C. Three status to run it. They look for another group to either how’s it um or to give grants to their group which might be considered a taxable for profit Um If they don’t have five oh one C. Three status for some period of time and that’s how fiscal sponsorship can arise it can arise in different forms but because it’s not defined by law it’s done wrong all the time. So while it’s growing.

[00:09:57.32] spk_0:
What about new charities that don’t yet have their five oh one C. Three. Maybe they’ve applied so they’ve submitted their 10 23 to the I. R. S. But the process may take a long time can they also sometimes benefiting from fiscal sponsors. So they’ll they’ll get an established five oh one C. Three to make grants to them until they get their own 501 C. Three determination. Is that is that okay?

[00:10:53.65] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a perfect use of a fiscal sponsor and fiscal sponsors can act as incubators, even if they’re not applying for five oh one C three status right away, even if it’s something they’d like to test out and say, is this a viable charitable idea? Um, So yes, fiscal sponsorship can absolutely run that way, but if it’s not structured properly, even if that is the well intended sort of purposes of everybody involved, if it’s not structured properly, you can get into trouble both as an organization, you can end up having a donor who gets denied a deduction. Um, you can get a foundation into trouble who finds it. So structuring these things properly is really important. So as this field advances and evolves and it’s been around in informal ways for, you know, many, many decades, um, as this field advances, we want, we would like to see sort of more sort of consistency in operating it in a lawful manner that doesn’t endanger anybody and really it helps everybody accomplish what they want to do charitably.

[00:11:58.73] spk_0:
What about the idea, I mean, if you are incubating an organization, let’s say it’s it’s a few people, it doesn’t really matter, but I’m just trying to take it out of the realm of just one person, I suppose you’re incubating uh an idea and you, the Community Foundation because they’ll often act as communities as fiscal sponsors. Community foundations. You think it’s a, it’s a bonafide non profit idea, but and you make grants to it, but it turns out not to be so they don’t get their five oh one C three determination positive. What what what happens then is is the is the Community Foundation liable at all? And what happens to the deductions that were granted to the to this nascent now, not now, not Uh not a 501 C3 entity.

[00:12:51.99] spk_1:
Yeah. So I don’t want to dive too deep into the weeds. But yes, if the Community Foundation is housing and incubating the project, it’s not the same project that is housed in this new entity that is applying for five oh one C three status, that’s going to be transferred over into the new entity once it gets its five oh one C three status. So the Community Foundation is running an illegal activity, which is maybe another two We can talk about, well then the community foundation would of course get into trouble. But if it’s a small part of what the community foundation does, which it probably would be right, it would be maybe like 1% or maybe even less than 1% of the foundation’s overall activities, that’s not gonna usually result in anything terrible unless they were doing very terrible things. Which is unlikely. Um But you know, it would be different. An incubator definitely has less risks and they’ve got all their insurance and you know, legal support and accounting support to make sure that it’s not running afoul while it’s housed in the Community Foundation,

[00:13:07.79] spk_0:

[00:13:44.00] spk_2:
I can say something, Gene, I think as I’m listening to this conversation and from Anton has been a fiscal sponsor for many different groups, um you know, you also don’t have to be pursuing C three status, it might the whole purpose of what you’re doing could be done, you know, like we’ve been a fiscal sponsor for a group that was going to hold an event once the event was over, they were all done, they weren’t there was nothing to pursue a C three registration for, you know, So just naming that there’s a few nuances in that in the in the timeline to that, it may not be that there’s ever AC three application and something shady happened, but also the thing is over, you know, there’s a lot of moving

[00:14:00.81] spk_0:
pieces we have and what did you look for uh if you do in deciding to sponsor?

[00:15:21.47] spk_2:
Well, folks approach us, we haven’t, you know, gone out saying we would love to be a fiscal sponsor, it’s because it’s not, you know, intent isn’t set up, there are organizations of course, so that’s like their mission is to fiscally sponsored organizations, um but when we have been approached and folks have asked if we can essentially like extend our organizational privilege to enable their work, um the things that we look for are if there’s any sort of document or organizing agreement for the people involved on the other side again because they might not be, they might not be trying to be an organization but we want there to be accountability that that we can come back to um that they understand how much money they’re likely to bring in and how they’re going to spend it and that and tens books aren’t going to end up with some $10,000. We can’t do something you know um That there’s really a plan for what’s coming in and what’s going out and that they understand the options that exist for either becoming on payroll with us not being on paper roll being a short term contractor because N 10 already has staff and eight different states. But what does that look like if we were bringing someone on for a longer term and they needed to be on payroll in a state we’re not in. So we just have those conversations with them. But we have a standard agreement for fiscal sponsorship that we send to folks when we’re having those relationships and you know, separate bank accounts separate P. And L. Like all of

[00:15:42.21] spk_0:

[00:16:12.33] spk_1:
Let me add just one more thing that some sometimes it’s all about creating um what when some people would call a commons. So these projects never wanted to leave but they find the efficiency of centralizing kind of administrative and back office resources and fiscal sponsor takes care of your legal filings and your tax filings, your insurance. Um and multiple projects just want to stay there forever. Um, So that that’s a use of the fiscal sponsor, a perfectly acceptable use of the fiscal sponsor as well. As long as it’s structured properly, structuring properly would be maybe my main point in this is that oftentimes people think, oh, I’ve seen somebody else do it, let’s do it the same way that may not work that they may be using the wrong example. So the national network of fiscal sponsor. Um, and then they’ve got a good sort of model of how this can be done properly.

[00:16:42.00] spk_0:
They have a book too, don’t they? Gene

[00:16:44.17] spk_1:
the book is actually from Greg Colvin and Stephanie Pettitt called fiscal sponsorship. Six ways to do it. Right. And it’s, I believe the only book out there, um, and it’s really good and not terribly expensive. So if you’re a fiscal sponsor and you’re not quite sure about what you’re doing by that

[00:17:06.18] spk_0:
Book. Okay, fiscal sponsorship six ways to do it. Right. Very aptly named book like it. Okay. Um, yeah. And there are also implications for the donors, right? If this is if it’s not created and implemented correctly. Gene the can the donors get like their charitable deduction clawed back or something like that.

[00:17:22.18] spk_1:
Yeah, they could get it denied by the I. R. S. Because if the donor directs their donation to an entity that’s not a charity. So if they’re telling the fiscal sponsor you must give this money to this project that’s a separate

[00:17:36.40] spk_0:
entity, well

[00:17:38.20] spk_1:
with a different bank account, the donor doesn’t get a deduction. Fiscal sponsor may have been aiding and abetting tax fraud. So problems there. So they’ve got to be careful

[00:17:56.72] spk_0:
okay for your donors too. All right. And on the on the illegal activity side. What what what what’s your what are your concerns there?

[00:18:00.97] spk_1:
So um as a lawyer, of course any illegal activities are concerned. But well

[00:18:06.94] spk_0:
there’s illegal and there’s there’s illegal

[00:18:15.82] spk_1:
actually that’s a really good point. So one of the things that the I. R. S. Looks at is like are you a 51 C. Three organization if you’re conducting illegal activities And they use the question that you asked basically tony There’s illegal and there’s illegal. So if you are engaging in you know civil disobedience to a small extent to advocate, you’re perfectly appropriate charitable purpose and mission. You’re probably not gonna expose your Five oh one C. Three status to to being revoked for that reason. If you’re committing a little bit of bank robbery. Well

[00:18:45.27] spk_0:

[00:18:45.62] spk_1:
probably gonna get you out of the 501 C. Three status. Right,

[00:18:49.64] spk_0:
Do it right. I mean why why do anything financially fraudulent for like $1,500.

[00:18:55.49] spk_2:
Right? There’s not a little bit of bank robbery like I want the whole safe or not. You know

[00:19:07.22] spk_0:
I mean if I’m gonna if I’m gonna compromise our reputation and risk myself being in prison. I mean, I’m doing this for at least a million and a half or something. You know, I mean, let’s make some decent money out of it, for Pete’s sake. I’m not risking everything for 50,000

[00:19:14.25] spk_2:
dollars. I want the gold bars while I want everything. You know,

[00:19:18.41] spk_0:
right, here’s

[00:19:19.60] spk_1:
how about this?

[00:19:22.79] spk_0:
Let’s go all in. I mean,

[00:19:31.21] spk_1:
The lawyer will say we are all in terms of how much money we’re gonna steal, but 99% of our staff time is spent on real stuff.

[00:19:33.03] spk_0:
It’s only one

[00:19:33.82] spk_1:
of our time I had spent on. It

[00:19:55.44] spk_0:
was, it was a tiny percentage of my time. I mean, it was just a few phone calls, a couple of texts. I mean, some some signal messages. I mean, you know, it was like a half an hour and you know, and then we executed. So it’s such a small percentage of my time. Really, why are we even bothering with this? All

[00:21:07.47] spk_1:
right. Exactly. So that’s the, there’s illegal and there’s illegal, exactly. As you framed it. Um, but I think now, why, why the illegality doctrine, as lawyers like to call it, is trending a little bit, is because we have some things that are considered illegal. That’s something that some states or jurisdictions are saying, well, no, that’s not illegal. And just sort of an example is cannabis, cannabis could be legal in some states, it could be legal for medical purposes in some states? It’s illegal for recreational purposes in other states, it’s illegal and federally it’s illegal, right? So that creates just all these weird dynamics, Can we have a five oh one C three organization where we’re cannabis dispensary for medical purposes, we’re doing it for charitable purposes. Can we do that? And the answer there is kind of know right now, if it breaks federal law, if that is the purpose of the organization and so now we’re not talking about activities now, but if that’s the purpose of the organization is to break federal law, then you can’t get five oh one C. Three status and you can’t if you have five oh one C. Three status and you change your mission, you can’t keep it. So something to look at in terms of cannabis organizations,

[00:21:12.39] spk_0:
even if it’s legal, even if it’s legal in your state,

[00:21:15.23] spk_1:
Right? Because 501 C3 status is a federal tax exempt status. So

[00:21:21.42] spk_0:
that could change

[00:21:53.07] spk_2:
and that’s for the mission of the organization. But what about or a national organization based in D. C. Because they’re a big HQ, they have their annual event in Oregon and the gala where in Oregon, cannabis is is completely legalized for recreation etcetera. And, you know, the silent auction table has like a cannabis care package is they’re they’re registered in D. C. The event is in Oregon. What’s what are the layers there?

[00:23:57.52] spk_1:
So the activities may be judged by what particular state they’re in. Although the sale of cannabis would always be sort of FDA sort of under FDA rules as well. Right? So you could always get charged with a federal crime on that, which is always the tough part. But just from The federal tax exemption standpoint, it’s kind of again fits activities if it’s doing it as an activity, that’s one thing where is it illegal? You know, little bit illegal maybe, and probably not going to really enforce or try to take away 51C3 status because of one event in Oregon where it’s legal under state law. But if that’s your purpose is to to say, hey, we don’t care what the federal law is. This is what our purposes which is contrary to federal law that can get you in trouble. So that’s the cannabis thing. But the study of cannabis or the study of psychedelics, certain psychedelics that might become approved federally and tony as you were saying cannabis could change as well. Um the study of it or the policy around it, that might be a perfect vibe. One C three purpose, either in the scientific realm or the charitable or educational realm, but a little bit of gray area in all of this. But I did wanna introduce one more area of illegality. Um and that is regarding abortion because that is another really hot topic since the jobs decision by the Supreme Court, right? So that allows basically the states to decide whether abortion is legal or not. And some states are really um strict about what they think would be illegal around abortion. So funding people to get an abortion, which what a charity might do, they might not perform the abortion, but they might provide funding and sometimes it’s just funding to their own employees to be able to access abortion in a state that allows it Um that can be illegal under state law as well. So now how does the fight, you know, that affect the 501 status

[00:24:09.39] spk_0:
even just funding an employee making an employee benefit? I

[00:24:39.22] spk_1:
think a law firm in texas, this varies amongst different states. tony so texas is one that’s been um pretty tough and in my opinion just terrible about um the laws that they’ve used and some of these laws go back decades. They’re they’re old laws that they were ruled unconstitutional before, but now after the Dobbs decision there sprung back into life. Um and so yeah, even funding employees to be able to access abortion clinics in other states could be illegal under those states. And

[00:25:50.42] spk_2:
yeah, after jobs, you know, there was like this wave of companies, especially for profit companies, but I’m sure nonprofits did it too, you know, saying like trying to I think in the spirit of of making clear their values, but clearly not thinking about the practicalities, You know, making these announcements, we will always fund our staff having access to this health care. You know, even if you have to travel or whatever. But like to to jean’s point the that isn’t very straightforward. It could if it’s known explicitly that that’s what you’re funding. It could be illegal if you’re an organization in texas, but also it requires disclosure that’s already making vulnerable a vulnerable staff person write a reimbursement which a number of folks we’ve seen say policies for reimbursement of travel. Well now there’s like a paper trail of where you went and and how much it cost and you know, like instead thinking about policies that say there may be harder things happening. We’re increasing your health benefit by this, you know, percentage of dollars just in, you know, like we have to think about the actual users here and not just the value statement where we think we’re making as an organization, you know,

[00:27:23.63] spk_0:
interesting point too about the paper trail because uh, texas again is one state where people who aid in a bet abortion can be can be sued, I think right? Or it could be right, It could be sued. So, so if there’s that paper trail that Amy’s talking about that mentions where the person went and maybe what relative may have helped them or you know that those those documents that that evidence could all be used when if if somebody nefarious inside the organization wants to wants to get some people in trouble. You know that that evidence could all be used against them. Yeah. All right. Well yeah I know well intentioned but maybe not so well thought out. But it’s it’s hard when when something so so disastrous happens. You know people want to rush to the aid like you know just like individuals who give to tsunami victims and hurricanes. You know like employers and C. E. O. S. Want to rush to the aid of their employees when they feel that there’s a uh something grievous happening to them potentially. It’s hard

[00:29:12.60] spk_1:
and I want to say we haven’t heard the last on this. These laws are going to be changed and challenged for years but right now we’re not in a very good place but wrapping it back into a five oh one C. Three package um Can the I. R. S. Take away your tax exemption because you do some of these things and then we get back to your, well is it an activity that’s illegal or is it really illegal? And um my feeling is that the I. R. S. Is not going to judge on the violation of state law unless the state has actually made that determination by a court ruling. So you can’t you might be able to pursue somebody and say well you know they violated the state law but if there’s no court ruling that says that the I. R. S. Is not an arbitrary of whether somebody has broken state law or not. So they will not take away five oh one C. Three status for just a complaint that somebody is violating these rules even though actually that might be the case. Um And nobody is not you know admitting that that’s not true. But the I. R. S. Is probably gonna want to lay low on the whole abortion topic is my feeling about it. But the illegality doctrine and there’s a similar doctrine called the public policy doctrine which was first introduced for racially discrimination which was federally allowed right And bob jones University used that as you know admission criteria or other sort of policy criteria. The I. R. S. Said no we’re going to take away your tax exemption for that even though it wasn’t inconsistent with law but it broke federal public policy. So there’s a related doctrine illegality that’s a sort of violation of public policy. But these are all things that charities just start to need to know and think about because one day it may pop up right in their neighborhood and they’ll be thinking about maybe we should have advocated a little bit harder in advance of that and try to make a difference,

[00:32:10.21] spk_0:
interesting. Um Contrast between the two examples we’re talking about cannabis having been illegal all along and now slowly becoming legal and abortion. Having been legal for the past 50 years now slowly becoming illegal. All right jean. Thank you very much. Love it. It’s time for Tony’s take to taking your new year. Welcome to your new year. I am always optimistic at the beginning of a new year. I cannot help it. It doesn’t matter if we’re in a pandemic or an economic recession in 2009. I’m always optimistic at the beginning of a new year. It’s in my d. n. a. So it’s a year of opportunity. If 2023 was terrific for you and I’m talking personally and professionally, if it was a bountiful year, it was a successful year for you. However, you define that. Congratulations. I’m very happy for you. I’m glad that your 2022 was what you wanted it to be outstanding. If you’re 2022 wasn’t if it was something less than you would have liked again, personally and professionally, Don’t let that hold you back for the new year. Your past doesn’t define your future. Your 2022 doesn’t constrain what you can do in 2023, literally each day, week month, you’ve got the whole year of opportunities, new chances to excel. So don’t let the past hold you back. If your last year wasn’t up to what you would like it to have been. You’ve got a whole new year of opportunities. Welcome to your 2023. Take it in embrace it. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for gene and Amy’s 2023 outlook with Gene and Amy Amy twitter. What the hell?

[00:32:12.79] spk_2:

[00:32:32.70] spk_0:
the hell? Yeah. Well immoral, immoral and unethical. To begin with the new ceo Elon musk. But uh, what the hell do we do with our, with our twitter accounts and we all three of us here have won. Nearly every nonprofit let’s assume has won. What we, we sort of have a sense of the landscape. What what, what’s your advice?

[00:33:24.47] spk_2:
I think to, to sum up my feelings. I would say like down with twitter and long live the internet. But what that means to me is a lot longer. You know, I think The decision about whether your organization should use Twitter or not is the same today as it has been every day since 2007 or whatever when I launched right? Like there’s always been, I think the need to consider if a tool you’re using that is not yours, you don’t get to own it. It is always permanently gonna be someone else’s tool, right? You’re just a visitor there. If it’s values match your expectations. If the community is there like all those same questions that we’ve talked about for years

[00:33:28.67] spk_0:
are still the same

[00:35:56.59] spk_2:
questions, you know, But I think what happens is organizations hopefully do ask those questions when they join something and then it’s like a closed discussion. And what I would love to see is that organizations re ask those questions every day on these platforms, right? Um, I would love to say the conversation isn’t about Elon musk because I would like to never have a conversation about. However, he’s really making the conversation about him by taking up a lot of the space and making the decisions right? Um, even today suspending the account that was like a bot that just posted when his jet went places and now that’s been suspended. You know, it’s like, okay, there’s just so much going on there. The issue to me isn’t, what has Elon tweeted or what has he done and more? Is it a platform that has the capacity to be safe for your users in your organization? Well not if every single member of those safety teams has been fired. Right. Um, is it a platform that’s going to be reliable because maybe you’re using it to communicate in real time situations, updates, et cetera? Maybe not When the again teams that support the reliability and uptime of the tool have been fired. So if it is meeting your needs, if your community is still really active there, if it feels like it’s a good fit, I’m not gonna say empirically, there’s only one answer to using any tool. Is it a tool that intent is using anymore? No, it doesn’t meet either the reliability or the values piece that we expect. We’ve seen tons of community members. Um, board members organizations, you know, post their last tweet and some of them, it’s like a very sad goodbye. And for others, it’s find me on linkedin, here’s, here’s my profile, right? Um, and for others, the last tweet didn’t even know that it was the last tweet. It just was the last tweet and then there weren’t, weren’t anymore, You know, it wasn’t a sign off, it just kind of ended. Um, but I’ll say all that and pause and then and and hear your thoughts.

[00:36:38.40] spk_0:
So what, you know, the concerns about safety reliability, these teams having been fired. Um, what about just taking a wait and see what might replace them? I mean, it’s still, we still are now january while we’re like two months into his 2.5 months or so into his ownership. Um, Should we, should we wait? Well, and I should say we’re recording in mid december. So it may not even, it may emerge by the time this comes out in early january. Um, should we, should we wait and see what

[00:37:59.71] spk_2:
was, I think something to think about is that there is no clear timeline for what wait and see means there, there has not been a, we’ve fired all of these teams that provide the reliability of the tool and the safety of the tool or at least the illusion of safety of the tool. Um, and we’ll be hiring for those teams on x date, that’s not been the process, right? So, um, that’s not to say posting your last tweet includes deactivating your account and leaving and everything right. It could just be Maybe you stop using it. Um it could be like in 10 has done, we don’t put money into the tool so we don’t buy ads, we don’t promote things right? So we’re not investing in what it is and the accounts open, we still have a notification set so that if a community member chooses to like tweet at us and say hey how come I can’t find this about the conference, we still see it and could provide that customer service, right? Um but it’s not a place that we are spending our time spending our dollars spending our energy even if you could still find the antenna count right? Um And I think that’s a place that for us feels like we haven’t walked away from the community or whatever parts of the community are still on the platform but we have made clear our stance is that this is not a place that feels worthy of that investment right?

[00:38:20.11] spk_0:
What have you done personally with at Amy R. S. Ward?

[00:40:22.50] spk_2:
I already used twitter so inconsistently like there’s one day where I just see five things and I’m like like in everybody’s tweets and replying to people and then I like accidentally go five weeks without tweeting just because I you know I wasn’t I wasn’t logged in or I wasn’t looking at things. Um I don’t know that I have tweeted recently, I don’t have, I don’t have even in my tab purgatory of my two screens, I do not have twitter open anywhere um I think the place, it’s really interesting. The place that twitter started out for me is kind of where it has returned to of very hyperlocal like there’s so many Portland’s folks that I don’t otherwise see because I never leave my house or you know they don’t work in nonprofit text so I wouldn’t otherwise connect with them but there I could still see them on twitter, I think that’s a place where it started out and I still want to know what the replacement is. Of course I’ve had lots of calm conversations with folks who are like well where should we go and we can talk about that but I also would encourage organizations to remember that you probably are already in more places than just twitter. You know, you probably do already have a linkedin page or if not pretty easy because your employees probably have linkedin profiles and you know, set up some space there um and most importantly, out of all of this again, you and I have talked about this but I really want to make clear in the midst of this kind of twitter, what is social media anymore conversation that you never owned any of that data, you never owned those pages, you never own those profiles, you never got to control them, you do control your website, you do control your email list, make sure that you are building up that list. That you are communicating with people directly in channels that you can directly um, message to because that’s no matter what happens, twitter returns and is a place of Utopia, you still won’t own it, right. And you will own your list and you will own your website and making sure that you’re, you’re really thinking about spending your time and money and staff time in those places. That’s

[00:40:52.33] spk_0:
really valuable. Basic but valuable reminder to cherish and build on what, what you do own your your site, your list. Yeah,

[00:41:01.38] spk_1:
I think there’s, you know, some difficult equity considerations in in twitter’s value um as well. So beyond what the owner who is also the only board member, uh,

[00:41:09.93] spk_2:
that’s the best practice, Right?

[00:42:24.32] spk_1:
Uh, so beyond beyond him, uh, there’s the consideration of, well, where are the folks you are serving? Where are they at? Is there a virtual town square where they’re at? Because many, maybe on twitter and they may still be there and for you to give them messaging, that might still be important. So I’m not, I’m still on twitter and conflicted about it, but I don’t want to be judgmental about charities that decide to stay on twitter because that may be still a really important way for them to reach out to their audiences. Um and for the audiences, I don’t want to be judgmental of them either because there are a lot of people who are not privileged to be able to access a lot of other technology and other platforms. They might, you know, find twitter super easy and you know that’s what they have and I’m not yet willing to say we’re just going to leave twitter to become this, you know, white heterosexual male dominated platform and Ellen and his bros can do whatever they want with that without any pushback from other perspectives there,

[00:44:15.41] spk_2:
I hope Tony Let’s make a 2023 resolution that gene and I get to do more shows together um because it brings up such a good just hearing you share that Gina and I agree with everything. Um as always let the record reflect, I always agree with Jean and I am always doing legal activity. Um is, is the version of this from a few years ago about facebook, right. And there’s some really unique and important differences between the twitter options available just like because of how the platform works versus facebook, you know, twitter is public by default. You don’t have to have a twitter account to go see what an organization had been tweeting about. Here’s some information right versus facebook which is very like within the world of facebook um the data trail that that creates is very different right? Organizations could say despite the hellscape we’re staying in twitter and we are to loop back to the previous conversation, um, an abortion fund and we are going to make sure that we are sharing information. No one has to interact. No one has to like ask us for it. But we’re putting this information out right in a place where people maybe find it in a search on facebook doing that or saying here’s our upcoming fundraiser to raise funds for abortion funds. Everyone who RSVPs for that event and has a texas address, has just created a data trail that is likely very problematic for them, Right? And the organization maybe didn’t even understand that’s what is happening, Right? So they are very different platforms, very different ethical dilemmas for sure. Um, but but what they mean for you as an organization staying there and what kinds of compromises you might be creating for already vulnerable communities are very different because they are just very different platforms, right? That operate differently.

[00:45:09.04] spk_0:
If we if we should decide to go elsewhere. Uh, let’s let’s talk about And you well, you mentioned, you may want to put on twitter that you can now find us on, we’re gonna talk about mastodon and uh, there’s another one post. Um, but you may want to just alert folks that your activity has moved, you know, over or or like you said, find us on linkedin or you know, we’re very we’re still very active on facebook. You know, instagram maybe, you know, maybe our channel. You know, whatever you want to I think you want to let folks know what you’ve decided without just disappearing. Mm

[00:45:14.16] spk_2:

[00:45:14.93] spk_0:

[00:45:16.37] spk_2:
like you probably should have those links on your website. So have updating your bio to say,

[00:45:22.54] spk_0:

[00:45:54.15] spk_2:
know, visit our website and find the channel that works for you or something. You know, you don’t have to um, you don’t have to write that farewell letter As in last tweet with every link to every site. Right? But making sure that you do think about what a user is going to see if they do try to look you up and have the bio be updated or whatever. Um there there are a lot of folks talking about mastered on host, these other platforms. I’m, I have accounts on them. You are welcome to find me. I’m not posting a bunch there or anything but you know me, I like to just see how tools developed. So I’ve had accounts on both of those and um,

[00:46:06.02] spk_0:
you’re more, you’re more altruistic than I am. You like to see how the, how the, how the platform develops. I just want to grab the name tony-martignetti

[00:46:15.28] spk_2:
before for

[00:46:22.96] spk_0:
somebody else who’s been on my show. I’ve had tony-martignetti other, another tony-martignetti on my show. Um, he never had me on his show come to think of it.

[00:46:25.18] spk_2:
Well there is as of today no other amy sample ward. So there’s only 1 20

[00:46:31.88] spk_0:
but but I’m not posting, but I wanted to grab the grab the real estate but I did it for more selfish reasons you

[00:46:38.05] spk_2:
did altruistic.

[00:46:39.81] spk_0:

[00:49:20.47] spk_2:
mean I think that um as is true with a lot of social media platforms that have been uh financed by and developed by the privileged communities of tech development, that’s who’s mostly on those platforms already right? Even though they’re very different mastodon is, you know, kind of like what’s the open source values, whatever. I haven’t seen a lot of that and and post trying to be more about like what are you really thinking and like content focused mostly screenshots of tweets so it feels a little um, a little, a little bit of whiplash but I wouldn’t say that it’s bad if you are like tony and you were like, but there’s so many organizations with our acronym like we want the the handle go for it but don’t go fill the account with content as if you are present there, just just sit on the handle, you know, because once you have a complete profile, Well now it looks like you are trying to post there and people don’t know how to interact right, just hold, it reserve it in your name, put the password in last past, you know, but but don’t, don’t um like I’ve always said and 10 doesn’t have an account on these platforms even though I just said that I do and a number of staff do because you aren’t going to use individual first platform as an organization. Well, if you haven’t been an individual first um, to actually know how it works. What’s the ins and outs of this tool? What are the norms? Um, mastodon works a little bit differently than folks may have experienced um, where you are in order to even create an account, you have to pick kind of what, what server you want to be associated with that changes what name it changes your default kind of news feed. Um, so there are a lot of things that you aren’t going to know out of the box for your organizational profile, you’re gonna need to play with it. And they’re, all these tools are developing a lot faster as they see hundreds of thousands of new users, you know. Um and I think again, back to the values point, they are also experiencing the challenges of lots of users write posts. Said that it only took six days before they had to take swastikas down. So what is it, what are the, what are the platforms doing, what are the values there? How are they moderating or managing content safety users before you say, oh yeah, let’s have our organization profile there.

[00:50:14.09] spk_0:
I did see uh a nonprofit power user and and very popular person, of course Beth Kanter, uh she’s active on mastodon. She didn’t just, she didn’t just take an account, but she’s actively moved there. Um, posting lists of other nonprofit folks to to follow that, you know, that she follows, so that another, another drop another name, J Frost, I see he’s there. Um so I mean that’s just, that’s just two people uh but beth in particular happens to have many hundreds of thousands of followers or had on on twitter. Um so it’s, it’s pretty monumental decision to believe that kind of um that kind of largeness and, and go to something where you know, you’re now, you now you now have zero followers on on day on day one. So that’s a significant decision. Um so I’ve seen and there’s some other folks too, but those, those, those are the ones that come to mind that, that have made the move there and and are active and actively encouraging others to

[00:50:38.88] spk_2:

[00:50:41.86] spk_0:

[00:50:42.71] spk_2:
know, and I, and I think not to put Gene on the spot, I know this isn’t what you were prepared to talk about, but

[00:50:49.29] spk_0:

[00:51:51.18] spk_2:
think we saw this with facebook and you know, facebook had its own rules about how they would kind of pursue this. But these new, these new platforms will have to have their rules too. And that is organizations who don’t necessarily have a registered trademark but are very clearly like the United Way of Portland or something, you know, and then somebody went on there and created that account already, right? And is trying to sit on it, twitter has experienced, you know, people sitting on the accounts and then um people needing to have access to them and saying that’s actually my name or my organization’s name or you know people that sit on the U. R. L. S. Of like World War three. Oh now there is one, we need that U. R. L. You know whatever um so that that will there there will have to be a course whatever that course maybe for resolution on that. I also I just don’t want people leaving the conversation feeling like they need to spend the next two hours finding these platforms requesting an account and trying to sit on their organization’s name themselves. Like if you want to you can but don’t feel that’s not the takeaway here.

[00:51:56.72] spk_0:
Yeah, don’t do it, don’t do what tony-martignetti did or

[00:51:59.98] spk_2:
just don’t feel obligated that you have

[00:52:01.69] spk_0:

[00:52:03.61] spk_1:
I’m sitting on a post account tony and I’m active on mastodon uh as well. So yeah I I think it’s going to be a tricky thing but for organizations, if you do find somebody using your name, you may want to bring it up and challenge that you talk to a lawyer about that, especially if they’re putting anything in that misrepresents your organization, if they’re acting like they’re spoofing your organization and putting out some content that’s not true or bad for you, make sure you put a stop to that

[00:52:34.39] spk_0:
I guess there are people who would do that and just hope to make some money at it Like

[00:52:40.35] spk_2:
there’s definitely money to be made. You

[00:52:44.04] spk_0:
know, if I get the ford motor company or Tesla or something, you know, I’ll be happy to sell it to you for $150,000 or well a million and a half seems to be my price. So

[00:53:08.96] spk_2:
I mean we see that with U. R. L. S already right. People just buy lots of U. R. L. S. Waiting for somebody to create a product called like the or uh, the oreo slushy. Great. Now we invented it. We need to buy that U. R. L. From you, you know? All

[00:53:09.20] spk_0:

[00:53:10.19] spk_2:
We’re all in the wrong business. Let’s just go buy a bunch of

[00:53:29.93] spk_0:
alright, um, amy anything more? We should talk about mastodon. Oh, I did want to just clarify for folks because you mentioned mastodon, you have to select a server. It’s really just to me it’s a community. sure, but there are only about 10 of them. It’s not like there’s a knitting community and a and a rock climbing and a soccer, you know, it’s not like that. Not yet. But I don’t

[00:53:39.52] spk_2:
want to use the word community and have folks get to that first page and see the word server and have no idea where the word, you know, But yes, you’re right. You are, you’re kind of choosing the space. That’s your entry point into the world of mastodon

[00:53:57.09] spk_0:
And there is one with a social good label to it. So Beth Kanter is at Beth Kanter dot Social Good something.

[00:54:03.76] spk_2:

[00:54:04.20] spk_0:
like you said it it affects your

[00:54:06.10] spk_2:
your name

[00:54:06.92] spk_0:
affects your screen name, your your handle your I. D. Yeah.

[00:54:57.74] spk_2:
Um I the only last thing that I’ll add in our final minutes here is a very long time ago, people have been like O G listeners um you know, we used to say, well how would you know what social channels your users are on And you know, we’ve talked about having in your own website for your user profiles or in donation uh forms wherever you might be getting feedback from folks now that they have to put their U R. L. In, but just a checkbox like Oh yeah, we do. You I have a facebook account, an instagram account and whatever, you know, whatever it might be. Um make this is an opportunity to go check those lists and say maybe we should add mastodon on or maybe we should add post or we should update what options were actually providing. So so that you could notice, oh, there are a lot more people now here. Maybe it’s worth us looking at that platform. Right. So if you’re doing some year end data cleaning, look at your at your profile forms or your feedback forms where you might say, what tool, you know, what are their channels are you on and add some more of these newer tools.

[00:55:20.84] spk_0:
Amy sample ward Ceo of N 10 for the time being. She’s at

[00:55:26.18] spk_2:

[00:55:45.50] spk_0:
are at amy R. S Ward and Gene Takagi, principal attorney at the neo nonprofit and exempt organizations law group for the time being at g tech, but also you’ll find him on mastodon and post amy. Thank you jean, thank you very much.

[00:55:47.74] spk_2:
Thanks so much. tony I really do want to do shows together with jean.

[00:55:51.47] spk_0:
No, I concur yes, that’s uh that’s a good idea. Well let’s make sure we do another couple of these this year.

[00:55:57.73] spk_2:

[00:56:27.95] spk_0:
alright and again, happy new year. Next week. Erica mills Barnhart on common communications conundrums. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media, is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 1, 2017: Fiscal What?

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Fiscal sponsorship. You’ve probably seen it and don’t know what it’s called. We’ll fix that as we cover what it is; who does it; how it can help your work; getting started; and what can go wrong. Gene Takagi is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group. Andrew Schulman is with Schulman Consulting.

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We got two new sponsors to welcome today. Wittner, cpas and apolo software welcome, wagner. Welcome apple, o’s. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I get slapped with a diagnosis of collect a zia if you tried to milk me with the idea that you missed today’s show physical what fiscal sponsorship you’ve probably seen it and don’t know what it’s called will fix that as we cover what it is who does it, how it can help your work getting started and what could go wrong? Jean takagi is our legal contributor and principle of neo non-profit and exempt organizations more group and andrew shulman is with shulman consulting. They’re both with me for the hour. Tony take two sponsor love responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled pursuing dot com and by wagner sepa is welcome wagner guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit apolo see accounting software designed for non-profits welcome abalos, they’re at non-profit wizard dot com and by we be spelling. Supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We be the spelling dot com. What a terrific pleasure to welcome back jean takagi. You know him? You know, i’m for pizza, but he deserves a proper introduction. Of course. He’s, a managing editor, managing attorney of neo, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. And he edits the popular, wildly popular. You should be usually following this blood non-profit law block dot com highly recommended by non-profit radio and he’s, the american bar association’s twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer he’s at g tack on twitter welcome back, jean. Hi, tony it’s. Great to be back. Ah, pleasure and were joined. Bye, andrew showman. He runs the only consulting practice in america focused on fiscal sponsorship, showman consulting, assisting both sponsor organizations and fiscally sponsored projects. He’s, an active member of the national network of fiscal sponsors and a probono consultant for the taproot foundation. His companies that showman consulting, dot com and he’s at am shulman. Welcome, andrew. Thanks for having me, tony. Good to be here. Pleasure. I’m glad you both with me. Thank you for the hour we got we got a big topic this fiscal. What? This fiscal? Sponsorship. Gene let’s, let’s. Start with you. What? What? What are we talking about? Fiscal sponsorship. But it is a little bit of a complicated topic. We have an hour together, which is great. The pickles sponsorship can mean a lot of things. And so when people use the term pickle sponsorship, many of them are thinking of it as a kind of using another organization to raise money so that they could get a charitable project off the ground without forming a new non-profit. But it also refers to other types of relationships as well. But it generally refers to the ability of the charitable project to get the benefit of a five a one c three and raising money through five twenty three through the relationship of the project leaders with the five o one c three o’clock you are approached by a lot of, well, intention, zealous people who want to start non-profits and you just mentioned this can be an alternative to that. Do you have you guided people in this direction? Oh, and it has been successful. Yeah, absolutely. Tony so it works is a great incubator for charitable ideas that organizer’s may not be. Sure of you know, we’ll get off the ground or not, but they’d like to give it a try where might be for a limited scope, it might be for you no one event a year or we’re going to just do it for one year and see what happens. It’s great to have a another charity out stairs and things, you know will sponsor even we’ll, you know, we’ll sort of recognise this is an internal project of ours, and you can work with us to do it. And if it works, maybe spend off later and you form your own non-profit so it works of the great incubator, and i often advise smaller organizations that don’t have a lot of administrative expertise. Teo, think about pickles and jean have you also worked in your practice with the sponsor organizations? Yeah, with several sponsors throughout the country, tony and on their way to do it right into ways to do it wrong. So hopefully we get a chance to look into those things a little bit more. Okay? Sounds good. Andrew let’s bring you in. I know your practices both on the sponsoring side and also the the sponsoring a project side. Anything you want to add at the at the outset, the way tryto break this down for people. I would just just echo what you said about, you know, its sponsors have bean a lot of different things, and you know, it the most interesting thing that i’ve run into is that everyone has a, you know, a little bit of personal experience, i say they were looking at physical processes through a keyhole, and if you sort of pull back there’s actually a whole landscape of different things that it means and different ways that could work. So that’s, what it’s really about? Okay? And i got i got, i guess, validation for the two of you being expert in this area, someone e mailed me someone who works in non buy-in the fiscal sponsorship and said that both jean and andrew are experts on then, of course, now we’re on facebook live live listeners if you want to follow us. Ah, watch the video facebook live! Go to the tourney martignetti non-profit radio page, facebook and document hello, reed reed says gina’s, an awesome expert. Thanks for the topic. Absolutely, reed. You’re in the right place. You should be here every every friday one to two eastern. This should be your your staple friday at one. O’clock! But i’m glad you’re with us today read on also vanessa jones is on facebook live hello? Vanessa. Hello. Um okay, so yes, you both said lots of ways to do this, and in fact, there are models a through f so we’ve got six models, but the two of them are the most popular a and c i don’t know why it’s not a and b maybe we can bring that up with the national, the the national national network. Thank you. Thank you, andrew. National network of fiscal sponsors, but anyway and see the most popular. So we’re going to spend time there, but let’s see andrew let’s stick with you. What? Just let i don’t want to tick off six different models because we’re not going to spend a lot of time on four of them. But just what? What are the distinction? Like what? What characteristics distinguish generally between the six models? What kind of different things that we see in the six different models and then we’ll have time to focus on amc. Okay, okay. Yeah. I will go through all of them individually. But, you know, the key differentiator is elearning and this is something jean will hopefully timing as well. Is the legal relationship between the bumper and the project? Ok? And so do you. Think of it. Spectrum, you know is at one and where the project is essentially the eyes of the law of the ira. Just the program pasta. Looks like they decided to start up a new program. It was much the same way to the regulators, you know, down to, uh, c is one where the project is actually a separate legal entity has its own. We got standing, but just does not have usually does not have a five. One two three on those using the answer for that. So there’s all between there there’s all different relationships on different setups, but basically dependent on what that relationship looks like. Sort of what level the project is at in terms of their i don’t know their situation of you know, either. Incorporated. You have any standing? Okay. Okay. So, it’s a different relationships between the two. Andrew, when we come back to you, i need to speak up a little louder. Okay, try toe latto. Right. A little post it note on your by your phone. And speak a little louder. Okay, so you remember through the hour you’re coming in to buy it for everybody. Okay, now i did find, you know, contrary to popular belief. Actually research these conversations before i have them. And at fiscal sponsorship dot com there’s an article by someone who i think is pretty well known in this area. Greg gregory colvin on my right, gentlemen, he’s he’s written a book. Yeah, i don’t have that right. Yes. Okay on dh he’s got a chart. So if you go to fiscal sponsorship, dot com in this paper by him which is called presentation on fiscal sponsorship also aptly named good for him there’s a chart. And it has the a through f and lays out different basic characteristics. And whether it’s a separate legal entity and we’re the charitable of nations belong and things like that. So if you want to, you want to get more detail on the six. Certainly khun consultant jean takagi or andrew goldman. But if you want to see a simple chart, then you could go to fiscal sponsorship. Dot com. Okay, gene let’s. Um, let’s, let’s. Start toe. Break these down. Model a. Way let’s say we just have, like, a minute or so before break. So why do you just given overviewing of of what? A model, eh? Looks like jean sure. So it’s actually exactly what andrew? It said it. It really is an internal program or unit of the fiscal sponsor. And what happens is the project leaders, the people who come up with the idea that they want this project sponsored, go up to the physical sponsor and say, hey, can you develop a internal program within your entity within your charity, but delegate management of it up on the one thing that separates it from just being a plain vanilla internal program? Is that there’s a fiscal sponsorship agreement that allows the program organizer’s or the project organizer to spin it off at any time? They decide that the fiscal sponsorship relationship isn’t right? Or they decided that there finished with the incubation and they want to set up their own non-profit bible, twenty three entity and then move the programme over into that new energy so that basically modeling in that shop? Okay, cool, well done on. We’re going to dive in further on that and talk. About the pitfalls contracts. Bond, gentlemen, what i do want to do is i want to approach this from the perspective of a potential sponsors, because we’ve got, you know, over twelve thousand people working in and around small midsize non-profit. So they’re all potential sponsors, so that i want to look at it from that perspective more than the perspective of the potential projects. Okay, so everybody stay with us. Fiscal sponsorships continue. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the, uh, they’re ninety five percent got a bunch of people who joined us on facebook live. I love it, rob meger, dahna lechner character chicky and i think we’re headed to the beach. Gary astro, welcome, welcome. Uh, is that kurt? Kurt hildebrand? Okay, welcome, facebook, live. Glad you’re with us. Um, okay, so. Uh, your name is jean, not sam. Sorry. Nobody’s name here starts with an s so that was that was a big faux pas. Okay, gene let’s, let’s. Go a little further with model a. Why? Let’s again? From the sponsoring organizations perspective. Why would non-profit want teo taking an internal project from some bunch of ruffian startups? Start up people with a lot of passion, but not any business sense. What’s the advantage to the that sponsor organization. Well, hopefully they have a little bit of business. Otherwise you wouldn’t take them. Yeah, all right. That’s, the main reasons why a physical sponsor and existing charity would say, hey, i’m willing to sponsor your project and actually make it an internal program of our entity. The main reason they should do that, it’s because it furthers their own charitable mission. So that should be the number one reason what ends happening sometime by maybe less informed leaders of some organizations that might be willing to physically sponsor a project is that they think that it might be a way to make some additional money on. And they might say, hey, we can raise funds for this program. But you know, bring in a little of that for our own general admin purposes, and maybe that that’ll that’ll effectively give us more resource is to do everything else. Okay, well, right, because andrew there’s a fee associated with this, right that the sponsoring organization charges the project. Yes, i think that’s correct, usually it’s space, either on the revenue that’s raised percentage or face on the expenses of that project. Okay, and what, what, what, what? What’s. A typical range what’s fair. Well, it depends on the model depends on a lot of things, but i would say anywhere between five and fifteen percent. Okay. Okay. Uh, in the rain. All right. We’re just right now. We’re just talking about model a sow is that? Does that apply for model a five to fifteen percent? Yeah. Model a. We’re probably looking at four of us st nine. Ten. Fifteen. Okay, a little bit hyre right, because the organization that sponsors is taking on a lot of responsibility, right? Let’s, start flushing that out. Yeah, exactly. There. They’re taking on all of the legal responsibility all of the risk in terms of liability for the project. A cz well, as taking on the financial management of the donations that are coming in and how they’re being piela being spent all that money being spent, the employees rest if there’s paid employees so there’s a lot of a lot of pieces for the for the for the pompel okay. And what what’s the board’s obligation here before we before we take this on it. It sounds like something we shouldn’t do just for the revenue. Wait, let me just let me just start with that question. We should not do it. And i think gene was alluding to this. We shouldn’t do it just for the money. Do i have that right? Yes, i would say nobody should get into any part of non-profits to make a lot of money. Okay? And, of course, you know, even e guess, even if it furthers your mission. But you know, if you’re not really into the whole idea, but you just feel like you could let’s say it does meet the criteria that gene mentioned definitely furthers your charitable mission. Ok, got that. But then wait. We could make some money at it. You know where we’re like, lukewarm on the relationship idea. But, you know, we could make nine or ten percent that’s. This is not the way to go about it, right? Right. Right. Yeah. It really also requires the sponsors have there processes of infrastructure in place to do what? Well, i know there’s. We’ve talked about the book that six ways to do it right, andi, i know jean government have flogged their six ways to do it long from a legal standpoint in my world. From the operation standpoint, there’s, probably about a hundred ways to do it wrong on one of them is trying to take on a project as a sponsor when you don’t have your own infrastructures, set up well, and your financial processes and on all of that work is not sort of ready for prime time than if you take on someone else’s. On top of that, you’re just setting yourself up for bad situation. You alludes in the book? I didn’t. I didn’t make the connection explicitly. The book is by gary coleman. Is that right, greg? Greg coleman, thank you. Six. What is what is the exact title of his book? Jean correct me if i’m wrong, but i think it’s a fiscal sponsorship six ways to do it right? Yeah. That’s absolutely right. And and greg corbin is the guru oh, on this topic, tony he’s he’s really led the whole movement on dh written really? The seminal book and probably only full sized book on the matter. And it’s any non-profit actually wants to start a physical sponsorship program or hasn’t, you know, has started doing it kind of informally, but not really gotten their ducks in order. They should buy this book and read it very carefully. Okay. Greg colvin, fiscal sponsorship. Six ways to do it right. Is that right? That’s? Right. Okay, jean let’s flush out some of these legal responsibilities that ah, sponsoring organization is taking on under model a what does the board need to consider and be aware of? So apart from from the mission of the project, they want to make sure that they got the right sort of project leadership in place. They obviously, as andrew was saying, you’re taking on not only all of the responsibility, the legal responsibility, the project and the financial management responsibilities project, but everything to do with the project is to do with your organization as well. So it’s there any risks involved in that project? The liabilities are going to be the physical sponsors you’re not isolated from that. So you’re taking on all that responsibilities the board has got to think about on dh sometimes he delegates this off to management that the project is well to find enough to be able to do it, but i like it when boards actually approved the projects and take a look at the application, which might include bios of the project leaders, um, and any special rigs that might be involved with their activities. So if there are working with children no, if they’re going on outdoor expeditions or if they got a camping program, is going to be dealing with research for on any see more than just sort of playing administration in an office they’ve gotten think about the risks and whether they have the right insurance in place and all of the infrastructure things that andrew said they’ve got to get in order before the accept the project, those are all the things that the board has to say. Yes, we’re prepared. To take on this particular project because we’ve got all our ducks in order to be able t o i handle the management and oversee all of the management of this particular project, its employees and volunteers and everything else. All right? I’m i’m getting i’m getting tired now of talking in the abstract i want i want toe implore you to tell me a story. So, gene, can you have you have a client story you could tell about a model, eh, fiscal sponsorship that that went well? Sure so ah, a typical model a project make may come in that say says we’ve got this great idea. We’re going teo run an after school program for children’s education in this area of a city that doesn’t get much of those services. We’re not sure you know if it’s gonna work or not, we project that we’re goingto bring in about one hundred thousand dollars a year, and we’re not sure of funding outside of the first year we’ve got some donors and foundations, perhaps that if we have a five a one c three, they will commit. So we’ve got this first year commitment of one hundred thousand dollars we’re not sure after that, if it’s gonna work, so we’re looking for a physical sponsorship relationship to start out with, and that might be kind of the first cases of saying from the physical sponsors point we’ll have you done anything like this before? Have you raised funds before or, you know, how did you get this initial one hundred thousand dollars worth of commitment on dh? What risk is there going to be involved in your after school program? What exactly? When are you going to do who’s going to manage it? Do you need employees? You know, are you going to be all volunteer, right? Those are the types of questions that need to be asked of this particular project that we’re talking about and sometimes stop, you know, in that particular project that i’m thinking of, you know, ended up becoming a great project for that sponsor, the people that brought in the project, we’re really focused on program and fund-raising they didn’t want to worry about all the admits, what filings to make? They didn’t wantto worry about payroll tax withholdings or insurance developed beings called the government’s policies, or even putting together a real board of directors, andi get all of that through the physical sponsors that works really well for the project and the programme leaders. The fiscal sponsor gets this project because they’re also interested in in-kind of children and youth programs in their area, they get this great project that gets a lot of attention, does very well, not only for the first year, but for subsequent years after that, and a great long term relationship arises, and the project actually ends up staying with the physical sponsor, not just through an incubation period that they never want to leave the fiscal sponsors. If you imagine tony one hundred thousand dollars, if we’re talking about even ten percent in administrative fees that’s only ten thousand dollars that’s the project would be paying to the physical sponsor in order to get all of those things. All of the insurance policies of filing no set up that a great relationship that can happen. Okay? And it’s continued, gene has been successful staying with that sponsor organization for many years. All right, andrew, i’ll give you a chance when we get the model. See, i’ll give you a chance to tell a story. Ok, not to worry, okay, um, but still i model a andi want remind listeners i’m talking. Teo jean takagi, principle of neo non-profit exempt organizations, law group and our our legal contributor. And andrew shulman, principal at shulman consulting shuman consulting dot com and we’re talking about fiscal sponsorships right now. Model a. We’ll get to the model, see, and we’ll find out why be got skipped over andrew, what do you what do you like to see you mentioned? There is a lot of things that can go wrong. Tick off some things that you like to see in a written agreement, and i’m presuming that there should be a written agreement. Everything i read said there ought to be a written agreement, but sometimes there isn’t, or a lot of times there isn’t so let’s, just assume that non-profit radio listeners are going to do it right. There is going to be a written agreement between the two entities. What do you like to see in that agreement? Well, i like to see i like to see a lot of things, i mean, okay, i mentioned before, nothing, one of the most important one is how you know a clauses in sections that that will tell how this relationship might end it already if and when it’s ready to be ended by either party. So if the project isn’t doing well and the practically there’s aside, okay, we’re you know, we’re going to close up shop. There should be part of the contract that say, ok, when that happens, here’s, how we’re going to do it wording and andrew, including the possibility of spending off to a different supporting organization, right? Right. So that’s the other side, if it does well and they decide either way, we need to move to a different sponsor that maybe has mohr provoc rise more services or more services. Tailors are specific needs or we want to go out. We’re at the point where we’re big enough people enough, we get our own. Five. One, two, three. You know what? How? What are the rules? And one of the for the processes dictates that so that that should all be in the contract, i’m i also like tio put in again, i’m not a durney venus, but i like to also put in the expectations of both the sponsor that the project should have for the sponsor and that the sponsor has for the project, so that gets into a little bit of process. And, you know, when, how long should we expect as a project that’s gonna take us a sponsor too? Latto check when we need to, you know, make a payment to a vendor or to review a contract before we before we do it, how, you know, if we’re if we’re applying for institutional grants from foundations, what’s the role of the project of the sponsor in that those kinds of things as well so that that’s the kind of stuff that usually gets skipped over in a lot of cases, but i found that to be successful as a sponsor, you really have to set the expectations up front of both how you’re going to operate with the project and what you expect from them. Jean would you want to add on the contract side so just clarity about that, that the project and all of the funds raised for the project are really funds raised for the physical sponsors, the party that signed the contract with the physical sponsors so the project leader they’re not registered to engage in fund-raising themselves and they don’t have five a onesie three status out neither the physical sponsors, so they have to realize that when they’re fund-raising there fund-raising as agents of the five a onesie threespot co sponsor, and they’re raising funds for an internal project of that sponsors so it could be restricted funds that they’re raising but it’s not funds for their separate entity or anything like that. So when they spend off, they might form a separate entity. But ultimately all of the funds belong to the sponsors, so there should be that legal understanding and the contract has got to recognize that. Because if you run into an issue with the irs for an attorney general or other regulators, that documentation has got to be perfect, even though ultimately the sponsor should be willing to transfer out the assets that you’ve got a suitable successor that’s willing to take on the project, including if the project leader’s create their own five a onesie three entities, now they’re going to be little caveat to be careful about. So here we go. One of the reason why the termination is because the project leaders have failed miserably and even embezzled money from the organization. Well, then you don’t wanna transfer assets out to something that they created that you know, would be imprudent for for the physical sponsors board. So little caveats like that you gotta be careful about, and then when they draft an agreement, you want to make sure that the sponsor is protected and doing it in the right way. Okay, we’re going tow. We’re going toe. All right, hold on. There just latto close that model a conversation. When we come back, we’ll do the model c will move to that. See what the differences are. See. See what it means legally, andi, i have to do in the meantime, do a little business first, beginning with pursuant, they’ve got a new free content paper for you. And that is the intelligent fund-raising health check. Health care is in the news. This is a fund-raising health check evaluates state of your fund-raising it includes nine key performance indicators. I think those air kp eyes if you want to be jargon e, but we’re not, we’re not here. Ninety performance indicators and ten characteristics of organizations that thrive. Where do you go? You go to tony dot m a slash pursuant twenty dollars starts pursuing check out free resource is from our sponsors pursuant weinger cps welcome again. Welcome, wagner. Welcome to non-profit radio. They are a cpa firm based in madison, wisconsin, and true to their tagline, they do go way beyond the numbers. They are also very generous with tons of free resource is they’ve got a page and has dozens of policy statements for you, including all the policies you need to make your form nine ninety complete like committee meetings, disclosures on fraud, document retention, lots of others and you’ll be hearing me talk about thes from week to week got to check these resource is out too, you know? Different but valuable absolutely from wagner cpas there at wagner c p a’s don’t forget, the less at the end dot com weinger cps dot com you’re quick resource is then guides stop wasting your time using business accounting software for your books you are in a business, you are a non-profit you’ve heard rumors to that effect welcome apolo software, our second new sponsor, this this week. Apple juice, apple of accounting is the product, and it is designed for non-profits. Don’t use the business software for non-profit your non-profit europe near you are born, used one that was built from the ground up for non-profits financial management. Simple, affordable it’s called apple, owes accounting. It includes fund accounting, advanced reporting, donation, tracking everything you need in one simple software, and you want check out apple of software. You want to see what what apple’s accounting is about. You go to non-profit wizard dot com that is our sponsors, those are our sponsors, welcome new sponsors. I’m very grateful for that. And now it’s, time for tony stick, too, and i am imploring you to show love to our sponsors are our listeners, whether you’re alive. Podcast or affiliate? I’m so grateful. That was not a side. That was a sign of gratitude that everybody’s with us. Um, i need you to ah, i need to check out the sponsors. It’s important. We need them to stay with her us so that we can continue to attract great guests. I can continue to take the show on the road to conferences will get outstanding speakers. They’re the conference speakers. I need you to support our sponsors on their new ones coming october first. So you may hear me mention this again. But for now, pursuant regular sea pia’s appaloosa counting on dweeby spelling. I need you to check out all our sponsors if they if you think they can help you, please let them check them out. Thank you very much. That is tony’s take two and i am with jean takagi and andrew shulman. We’re talking about fiscal sponsorship. Gentlemen, i think we’re ready to move. Teo model. See, unless unless somebody has something burning that the lackluster host did not cover in model a. So anybody, anybody have to say something about model, eh? Okay, going, going, gone. Thank you, thank you. Um, let’s. Move to model c and, uh, give it to andrew. What distinguishes model c from model, eh? Church model c is more of an armed blink relationship. Aunt it’s usually just face around a, uh, candy to space around a specific activity or even a specific grant about me from the project that the project is soliciting through the sponsors tax id number. So basically, in this case, the project, it is not a division or unit sponsor, but they have their own legal status. They usually registered within their state as a charitable organization, but they don’t yet have a five twenty three or don’t have a five, twenty three andi so they remain distinguish where here is that instead of handing off all of that administrative were to the sponsor with model, eh? I don’t see a lot more of that falls on the project, but they’re really just utilizing that. Five, twenty three status of the sponsor two taken tax deductible. So so is this just temporary? Until the the project gets its five. A onesie three designation from the irs, it can be can be temporary. Can be longer term candy. You know, there’s. A lot of uses. I know we haven’t gotten the story time. Yes, but there’s a lot of uses. For model b, the art where if you can imagine, a documentary filmmaker is doing a film that has a terrible purpose heimans telling an important story and they want to raise money via donations. I willbe tax deductible from the donors. And so instead of going through the process of getting their own twenty three, they can actually go through a physical sponsor of the model t and do it that way. Okay, uh, and reminder. I should’ve i should’ve mentioned it earlier. Andrew, remember to speak louder. Okay, write yourself a note and then look at the note to you’ve got to look at the note after you write it. Uh, jeanne model see what you want to add. So i’ll just build on what? But andrew, it just said a lot of times this is a project that thought by arts groups, sometimes by by research group, and they may not actually deformed the non-profit they might just be individual. So proprietors in the case of artist oh, are they might be just a for-profit type of al, l, c or business corporation, but beached in some sort of charitable effort. So the general idea here is they want to raise some money, and they’ve got some willing funders either donate or make grant to this specific project, but the funders and the donors the donors want to get a tax deduction for making the grant, but they can’t make a grant to liken individual artists and just take a deduction for that right on the foundation may not be able to make a grand to an individual artist without jumping through more hoops that they have to do under the regulations when they give to non charities, so both of them would rather give to a charity. But the fund what the artist maybe doing and in that case give it to the physical sponsor and the physical sponsor has the ultimate legal control and discretion over what they’re going to do with the money subject to the restrictions that the donors put. The donors are not going to say you have to give it to this individual artists what the donor’s going to say is we want teo produce oh, are we want to fund the production of a documentary on penguins in argentina and there’s only one, you know, so maker that’s actually doing that and they’ve made that, you know, typical sponsorship contract with the physical sponsor and what the models see. Agreement is a pre approved grant relationship. So basically their physical foncier’s saying, yes, we’ve already vetted this project. The artists on, and we know that they’re doing the research and they’re competent, and we trust them to be able to use our grant money properly. So if we raise the money, teo fund this project, we’re going to re grant it to this person, and this person is going to deliver the project for us, and then we’re going to make sure that it gets published. Distribution is simply because that’s, what a person on league it is, people, that’s, the typical marvel. Okay, so there’s that. There’s. More vetting involved. Do i have that right? Yes, going to be quite a bit of betting in in advance, just to make sure that this person isn’t just pay themselves, you know, for their their own living and, you know, housing expenses, but not do anything charitable with the money or build that they sell to a private collector. So it never gets into the public realm. And it’s just a way for that person to make extra income on their parents, donated the money and took a tax deduction for that that was completely improper and unlawful. So the sponsors got to make sure the vet that, if we’re going to enter into this relationship, are our role is a grantmaker, just like a private foundation might, you know, have a role to vet all of their grantees. But when you’re not going to give a grant to another public charity, you know, the responsibilities and the vending has got to be a little bit stronger, because you have to make sure that your money that you’re giving your charitable monies, that you’re giving us a fiscal sponsor, are only going to be used for charitable purposes. And they’re not going to be a fuse for private benefit. Jean do we know why model b got skipped over? Why did we get screwed? Well, pick first shot at a b b is around and this probably as the third most common of the fiscal sponsorship forms and it’s a little bit of model aimed he combined in that the project is owned by the physical sponsors, but rather than as in model a, where all the employees, volunteers and the contractors all are employed or hired or contracted by the physical sponsor. The entire project is going to be contract id out a single independent contractor in the model b, so you own the project because you want to control the project result, but you hired an independent contractor who would probably be the project leaders that brought the project to you in the first place, and they’re not going to be your employees, but they’re going to be independent contractors to it, and they’re going to supply all the services that our program services the cynical sponsor will still do most of the back office stuff. So is it too late there? Insurance would cover it, but they would hyre out an independent contractor. Can we have movable? Can’t we move? See up to be and be down to see since since sees more popular than be or is it xero late for that? So what? Who created this created this? I don’t know what greg’s mom and creature grantmaking. Dr gramm. We’re popular bin b but b if you look at it in terms of control and responsibility of the fiscal sponsor a is the most responsibility for the physical sponsor is the next most and he’s the least i see. All right, so we were working down a xander was saying earlier. It’s the relation what distinguishes these six is the relationship and we’re working. We’re working toward less less responsibility for the sponsor. Is that a through f? Do i have that right? At least eight, just like different variations. All right, all right. We need to get greg on here. Explain his nomenclature. But thes e the one who created this morass. Okay, we have it. We have a bit of a naming problem. Yeah, if you haven’t noticed. Yeah. Model, eh? My late model. Be okay. Uh, andrew, tell us a model. See story. Sure. So remember to talk loudly. I okay, i’m trying to tell me if i’m not because i’m trying to tell me what i need to talk even more loudly. Ok? Ok. You said okay, go ahead. I worked with. Okay, great. So i worked with an organization that association for non-profit news organizations on dh part of what they do is offer physical sponsorship metoo start up non-profit news entities. So i think, like the local ah, websites that have serve lots and all of the country with all the investigative reporters i’ve gotten laid off from newsrooms they’ve all got out started their own websites to cover local governments and things like that, and they offer a fiscal sponsorship in mile see to those entities to help them get started because and sometimes to stay for a very long time, because the gandhi’s are folks who are starting these entities that aren’t looking to you manage, you know, a non-profits they’re not looking to worry about out getting there there five, one, two, three status and and all of that on this organization that’s those folks, obviously they know who they are. They’re watching them very closely and know they’re acting as the five twenty three for all of those organizations. Okay, and that is that relationship continuing? Yeah, they have a have a great program. They have. Ah, i don’t know, probably upwards of twenty or so. And, you know, like i said, sometimes makes sense for that’s, awful, sponsored project and either model to separate out on their own. And sometimes it makes sense for them to stay, because, you know, if you had a certain level of size and fund-raising staff, bond, all that kind of stuff, uh, it’s, just a really good deal for you to be sponsors. And so, you know, especially in this day and age where a lot of funders are concerned about overhead and have lots of questions about overhead. I always tell people you’ll never have lower overheads in which her under physical sponsorship. We’re going to go out for our last break when we come back. Of course, live listeners love that. We’ve got to do that, and we’ll explore a little more than due diligence. Yes, and, you know potential risks. In our last seven minutes or so, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they only levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. Xero stoploss live, listener love and shout outs are going to tampa, florida. Woodbridge, new jersey, anaheim, california. Garwood, new jersey i don’t know i was from garfield, but no, this is guard would not to slight not to slight you. Garwood lifeless naralo love love to the live listeners germany. We’ve got a couple in germany, guten tag and also sao paulo, brazil i hate when americans call it san paolo don’t do that! It’s, sao, sao paulo, brazil, obrigado and let’s do a little facebook live love tio packed jackie, who i know is jacked up every sea. Mike zeller, george harris, rusty kansteiner, rusty hello, been a long time. Hello, jack piela zoho been a long time. Good to see you and trudy getting steam. Hello, facebook, live! You could join us, facebook live at twenty martignetti non-profit radio page and, of course, on the heels of all that has to come. The podcast pleasantries toe are over twelve thousand podcast listeners thank you whenever you’re listening, vinge listening, maybe four episodes in a row. Thank you so much, so glad you’re with us. So glad you get value from the podcast and our affiliate affections to the many listeners at our am and fm stations throughout the country i’m grateful to you for tuning in on the on your analog device. Of course, maybe you’re streaming your nephew stream your your radio station. So not necessarily. However you’re listening to your station so glad you’re with us and i thank your station for carrying non-profit radio, expanding the network, expanding the family it’s a family, not a network network. Sounds like a health care organization. It’s a family um andrew who’s, that who’s that sick rings that you andrew genes genes used during this so it’s probably it’s probably andrew’s genes used to hearing all this. I was ranting, you see, listen, specially love jean um okay, let’s, talk a little about some due diligence. Jean i gave you a shot earlier. Let’s andrew let’s, talk to you now about let’s. Hear from you sorry up my voice just cracked like i’m a fourteen year old on some or the due diligence that is sponsoring organization needs to do, you know, detail. We like actionable details for our listeners lorts sure, well, i think. You know, especially if you’re either either model, either either model, right, looking, too, to take on a sponsored project. You know it. This is a relationship. This is a marriage, essentially, that you’re getting into. So if you start with that apprentice, you think about, you know, in a business sense, all of the things that you want to make sure you know about the folks that you’re, you know, metaphorically getting into bed with. So you obviously want to know about their experience. You want to know about their support networks, whether two people raise money or, you know, bring on more people to help their project evolved. You want to know, you know, if they’ve had any, obviously, any criminal activity or anything like that, for sure, it also you want to find out about their plan. So, do they have a business plan or aa program plan? Do they have a fund-raising fran? Do they? You know, is there any money committed at this point already, like you guys mentioned before, that’s sort of ready to go if they’re able to get this that status, you know, those are the kinds of things that you really wantto dig into and understand, and that, you know a good official sponsor will have a pretty well defined application process that, you know, may have multiple rounds of interviews with the, you know, the staff of the mon for the board of the sponsor. In some cases, you know, like inside you, you do want ideally the board to make this decision or help you make this decision to take on these projects or even to start a sponsorship program because they are the end of the day, the one who’s, you know, they’re on the line at the end of the day, their fiduciary responsible for for the whole thing. So, you know, it should be you should at least have some input into that. Where do you see the responsibility for this do dilgence residing? Who does it? Treyz who i think who on the organization is doing it. So go ahead, and because usually the staff, you know, whoever it will be involved in working with the project from the path of the sponsor, would take the lead, maybe with some help from from some key boardmember okay, jean, did you have something more about through? Dilgence yeah, i just wanted wanted to add that it really is critical that the physical sponsor understand, particularly in the model see situation that there there one’s fund-raising forth the project, even though the project is housed in a different legal entity and that they’re going to make grants to they’re responsible for all the monies and all the responsibilities associated with the donors or the foundations, including e-giving a grant reports back to the foundations, and if it’s government funded the audit requirements that go along with that and that’s where you get the hefty, like the fifteen percent physical sponsorship administrative fees that andrew was talking about, government audits are incredibly difficult to do and expensive but fickle sponsor has got to be prepared to do all of that. They’ve got to make sure they’ve got adequate strapping to be ableto handle all of these and treat all of these is restricted funds and have all of the infrastructure, all the right policies over the right agreements, all of the right qualifications to do business if they’re in different states and registrations, you know, tony, you’ve got to be prepared to do all of that, and that made depend upon each project that they get, they may be incurring additional responsibilities that they’re going to think about on dh what if they what if they don’t do it right? Jean? What? What are what are some of the potential penalties were the worst thing that that happens is of course, the project gets into huge trouble, and they, you know, they engage in some sort of political activities and all of us and you jeopardize your own five twenty three status or a child has been hurt because of the negligence that they’ve got that have exhibited, and you don’t have enough adequate separation in the model c or it’s, a model a and its internal project of your physical sponsors. So you’re completely responsible for the liability, and you may find that you don’t have enough insurance because he went, anticipating those things and the bad if you weren’t really prepared for it. So those air the two worst case scenario. Ah, andrew. It sounds like you really should have some outside help and expertise. If you’re if you’re going to take this on. Well, i would i would recommend it. I mean, i think you especially if you’re doing it for the first time. So are a lot of people come to me or i’m sure jean when they’ve already got a couple of projects underneath, um, i say a lot of people get into this accidentally or at least unintentionally and, you know, like we said, they’re six weeks to do it right there’s a lot of ways to do it wrong on in the operation side of things and you know it, khun khun very quickly go from a really good thing, tio not so good thing in your whole team is now focusing all their attention on these projects and it sort of eating up all of their bandwidth on dso, you know, having some of those processes procedures in place on getting all those things set up is really important again, going back to the due diligence, the written contracts, i guess both of you have seen cases where it’s just been a handshake mary-jo absolutely, yeah, happened a lot. And then when when there’s a termination that happens, there’s a conflict about what? What should be done into who’s, you know, the funds belong to a lot of complexities when they don’t do it right at the start. Dahna andrew was something wanted ad about the downside of a handshake agreement. It’s well, i would i would just say that whether or not there’s a handshake or even a contract, you know, we’ve talked a lot about model a model see, and they are very specifically laid out, but what do you see out in the wild if there’s really a spectrum of how they operate? And some of them i’m not always done to the letter of the law and monsters don’t realize it, and, you know, some of the very long to get by obviously would recommend doing that if you don’t know what you’re doing, but it was really, you know, there’s a lot of variability out there, so if you are thinking of becoming a sponsor or you are a sponsor and you’re not sure you definitely want to talk to somebody who knows what they’re doing, gene, there is no legal definition to these right? That there’s no one legal, definitely fiscal sponsorship isn’t defined in any code or regulations, so cynical sponsorship. Is just referring to these relationship that are ultimately defined by the contract and that’s why you needed a written contract, because we need to know what relationship you actually have and the biggest, biggest thing, and where everything often goes wrong is misunderstanding that an outside legal entity other than the physical concert could not fund-raising for the project, even those of the individuals associated with it are fund-raising for the project, they are on ly doing so as agents of the physical sponsor. So the physical sponsor ultimately has control over all of the funds it is raising. And if it’s going to re grantham out, it’s going to re grantham out under its own legal discretion and subject to what they call all variant of powers in accounting language, basically saying that ultimately, the physical sponsors board has full control over them of those assets, subject to the purpose restrictions or timing restrictions that might be involved with the donations of the craft. Okay, we’re gonna leave it there because i think it’s ah, i think it’s appropriate to leave it on. Ah, sort of a note of caution. This certainly can do wonders for your charitable. Mission and your work, but i feel like what i’m sensing from from the two of you is you know, you got to do this right? So i’m going to sort of leave it on that cautious still a little bit of a finger wag that admonition tone that you probably need some expertise and you’ve got to make sure you do this correctly. Is that okay, gentlemen, anybody disagree with that? How can you? Okay, not at all. Okay, so i want to thank you very much. Andrew shulman. You’ll find him at shulman consulting dot com and at a m shulman and jean takagi editing the very popular non-profit law block dot com and he’s at g tak gt. Okay, gentlemen, thank you very, very much. Thanks, tony. Thanks, anders. Thank you so much. Have a good one. Pleasure. Thank you. Again. Next week, video storytelling and maria semple returns with deep pockets. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it. I’m tony martignetti dot com. I love our sponsors pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com regular cpas guiding you beyond the numbers. Weinger cps dot com kaplow’s accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez, and this very cool music is by scott stein. You’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Yeah. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine am or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealised took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address. Card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge. Somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for August 24, 2012: Campaign Volunteers & Fiscal Sponsorships

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Listen live or archive:

Tony’s Guests:

Rich Foss
Rich Foss: Campaign Volunteers

Rich Foss, author of Greenlight Fundraising, on the importance of volunteer leadership in your campaign. How to recruit your chair and lead donor; the other volunteers you need in place; and what their jobs are. He has job descriptions and other resources that will go up on LinkedIn and Facebook.


Gene Takagi & Emily Chan
Gene Takagi & Emily Chan: Fiscal Sponsorships

Our regular legal contributors, Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO), make sense of this complicated relationship. What it is; why your office might become a sponsor and what that looks like; how to get started.


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You’re on the air and on target as I delve into the big issues facing your nonprofit—and your career.

If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.

When and where: Talking Alternative Radio, Fridays, 1-2PM Eastern

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Here is a link to the audio podcast: 106: Campaign Volunteers & Fiscal Sponsorship. You can also subscribe on iTunes to get it automatically.
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Hello and welcome to the show, it’s tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, how i hope you were that you were with me last week. That’s all i just hope you were here. We had grow grassroots michael o’brien, founder and principal of mob advocacy. He knows how to bring people to your cause with grassroots advocacy. How do you activate people? What are grass tops? We talked about that and how do you engage those people? Where do you go to meet potential coalition partners and what’s the added value for your work around grassroots advocacy and divine devices, desktops, laptops, tablets and handhelds? Scott koegler had tips for picking the right device to fit your budget, your work style and personality. You know him? He’s, the editor of non-profit technology news and our monthly tech contributor. Of course, this week, campaign volunteers rich foss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising we, he and i are going to talk about the importance of volunteer leadership in your campaign, how to recruit your chair and lead donor and the other volunteers you need in place and what their jobs are and has lots of descriptions and other resources that will go up on linkedin and facebook after the show today and fiscal sponsorships. Our legal team jean takagi and emily chan from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group make sense of this complicated relationship. What it is, why your office might become a sponsor or sponsoring and what that looks like and how to get started between the guests on tony’s take two big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent you’ve heard that already. Today my block this week is to encourage you to listen to the show and since that’s a paradox, i’ll have some other things to talk about other ways to connect on tony’s take two here’s the first one, of course hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter right now, we take a break, and when we return it’s campaign volunteers on rich fost will join me. I hope you stay here co-branding think dick tooting getting dink dink, dink dink, you’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Thank you. You could join the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city in pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve, save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot or or a nj dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna welcome back, live listener love going out new bern, north carolina? Oh, how i miss north carolina haven’t been there for a few months, but i will be there soon september welcome new bern and we’ve got more live listener love as the show goes on right now, my guest is rich fuss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising your sustainable fund-raising guide to raising fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars a year to light up the eyes of people you serve and your donor’s hope the book is shorter than its title. Rich he’s been in fund-raising over twenty nine years as both staff and a consultant he’s with me from rural illinois, where he’s, the leader of a mennonite community rich fast welcome to the show. Thank you, tony. I’m really glad to be here today. It’s my pleasure to have you, uh, we’re talking about campaign volunteers. What what’s the role of volunteers in a campaign about in my career, i worked with community non-profits and usually there’s only one or two development staff, and so i really wanted to develop a system that could be a multiplier for for staff and also that could really use the gold standard of fund-raising, which is, is. You raise a lot more money when you sit down face to face with somebody and describe the organization and ask them for a gift. Face-to-face and so, basically, i developed this system where you recruit volunteers and have them sit down with face-to-face with people and ask forgiveness for your non-profit and, uh, uh, not promise that have developed our have a doubt that it it’s been very special for them. Now we have a drug in jail on tony martignetti non-profit radio, and i hate to do it to you in this very first segment. But you said volunteers are our multipliers for for the charity? What? Why do you what does that mean? Basically, what it means is that that a development director, even if they go out and ask forgiveness, face-to-face, uh, can only meet with so many people each week or each year, and if you have aa group of passionate volunteers, uh, bacon meet with her a lot more people in a much shorter period of time and, uh, that’s why i call it a multiplier, okay, so early parole from jog in jail, but what your step you don’t you don’t want a second offense while you’re on parole. The let’s see, i’ve heard that it’s really? I mean, volunteers and i’ve had guests say this volunteers are the leaders of the campaign. Is that do you? Do you believe that over rather than the staff of the charity? Uh, definitely definitely. And that’s why? In setting up the system, the very first step is to recruit the campaign chair person who you want to have a very influential person in your community be the campaign chair person because their leadership will influence a lot of other people to, uh, to join your campaign. And so that that leadership role is extremely important. Okay? And we’re gonna have some time to talk about how to recruit that campaign chair is as well as some other volunteers, but what’s the role of the charity’s staff in all this. Then if the if the campaign is being led by volunteers, well, basically, i describe it. The role of the the, uh, campaign staff is particularly development staff. He used to run the system. Sometimes i like in these campaigns like an ipad. The ipad spring is very simple. And yet behind it, there’s a whole lot of details. Well, what you want to do in these campaigns is to create the systems and the details in such a way that it’s very easy for the the er staff are executing the volunteers to do their work, and so that requires a lot of work, a lot of organizational detail, a lot of of of work on the part of the development. Okay, now you’ve been doing this for nearly thirty years, so you can’t always have been like getting this toe ipad. What you used to look like in tow the old pong game or what? What did you used to liking it, too? Twenty nine years ago. Oh, okay, well, i didn’t have any metaphors until i was the brother typewriter. When you push the half space key. What i love just love about those type, you know? You know there’s? No, they didn’t used to be an exclamation mark on typewriters. I’m sure you remember that, right? Right. Had you had to do a period and then a back space and then a apostrophe to get an exclamation mark and that’s my theories. Why they’re overused now because there is an exclamation keith but that’s a little bit of a digression. I suppose. We have just a couple minutes before we take a break let’s from so so the so the staff is doing the systems. I mean, they’re they’re basically they’re supporting the volunteer leadership then is that is that? I have that right. Okay, okay. Now, before we could do the campaign chair, your advice is that there be a pre campaign committee. I don’t want to spend too much time on that, but just like a minute and a half before a break, tell us about the pre campaign committee, okay? Basically, you know, a lot of community non-profits their boards don’t get formed based on fund-raising. And so when i developed the system, i decided that we needed to have a group that was focused right on fund-raising and so generally what you do in the pre campaign committee, you get together, the executive director, maybe past boardmember the current board members, people who are influential, the most influential people in your community that are connected to your organization form that that, uh, campaign committee, because basically it takes influential people to recruit influential people, and so that prepaid campaign campaign committee gets together and identifies, okay, who are? The the top five people that could serve that in our community, that could serve in that role of campaign chairperson. Of course, if you put it, if you put dick cheney on your pre campaign committee, then he’s going to want to be campaign chair. Well, if you’re lucky, there might be somebody on your on your your pre campaign committee who could serve his chair. But especially in the first year, you want to go after the absolutely best person in your community, because that’s going to make your campaign sustainable because you want to do this every year, okay, which way a person. First, it works much better the next year. Okay, we’re going to take a break. We’ll come back and talk more about the campaign pre-tax paint committee leading into the campaign chair. Stay with us, talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s time for action. Join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what you’re born, teo you society, politics, business and family. It’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry sharp, your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven, new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower, radio, dot com for every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back. We’ve got more live listener love going out to massachusetts, spencer, massachusetts and no handup massachusetts, welcome to the broadcast with rich foster. We’re talking about fiscal sorry we’re talking about campaign volunteers, which fast, you probably want to talk about fiscal sponsorship, do you? I don’t care. You have expertise. Yeah, i don’t even particularly. I’m not looking forward to it, but we are going to want to talk about campaign volunteers on dh were in our pre campaign committee. So the this group of community leaders is assembled to to choose the people who would be good prospects for the campaign chair. Correct. Okay. And you did say if the pre campaign committee should include the the executive director of the charity? Correct. All right. Is that really the only should that be the only staff person employee of the charity? You’re often the development director will also be a part of it. Okay? And then other people who are prominent in the campaign co-branded community in there, in the community. Okay, so what’s their what’s, their process this as they as they narrowed down the prospects that they move toward asking somebody, uh, basically what? They do is the first thing they do is identify probably five people, possible people and then rank them. And basically, i suggest this because, uh, i learned from my mistakes the very first campaign that i was involved with. We we identified the next best person asked that person and they said no, and that happened four times. Yeah, so that’s. A lot of disappointment for a committee of mostly volunteers. That’s, right, that’s, right. Very disconcerting and out. The fifth person said yes and ended up to be a very a very good campaign chair person. So what was the lesson lesson from that? Yes, i learned from that identified five people right away. Rank them and that way, if you if somebody says no, you don’t have to push the panic button. Okay, your committee of volunteers is not disillusioned. That’s, right? They got others to go to. Ok, it’s right on. You have some pretty specific advice about about this process and even the meeting with with the candidates. Yeah, yeah. The the recruiting of volunteers is really, really serious business tonight i have a son who played division one basketball in fact, colgate university and so i got to see first hand the basketball recruiting process, and one of those guys are highly organized, and the same charities have to do the same thing. I have to plan things out very carefully and basically, you have to identify, okay, who’s going to on this pre campaigning committee, who’s the best person to invite the person to a breakfast or lunch where they can be approach who’s the best person to ask them to be the campaign chairperson and in the there’s, a lot of details that you and i have planned out, and you’re doing this for each of your five candidates. Yes, well, you do it for the first one and and then, you know, if you have to go to the second one, you do it, but all planned. I mean, do you even recommend people sort of role, role playing or any kind of mock mock meetings? Teo, talk about you’re going to say this and she’s going to say that, etcetera, i don’t know if you need to do the role playing, but you need to identify who was going to say what you know, so that that, uh, like the reason you involve the executive director is you need to have someone who could describe the non-profit and also who can tell a powerful story about the work of a non-profit and, uh, so you basically need to figure out the roles before you before you set up the meeting, okay? Okay. And at what point should you share the the sort of job description of the campaign chair with the with the prospect? Well, i, uh i would do it verbally during during the meeting and then, uh, attended the meeting just give them the job description, ok? You don’t want to read it during them during the meeting, but you want them to have something to refer to when they’re when they’re considering it. Rich has a model job description for the campaign chair and lots of other helpful resource is we’re going to mention a couple of them, but you’ll find, ah, whole list of them around this topic of campaign volunteers on my on linked in group for the show and also on the show’s facebook page after after the show, those will be posted and rich, who lets see who i should be the person to actually make the ask at the meeting is that should not be the person who’s the the closest to them. Or should it be the executive director? Or how do you decide who actually says we invite you to be our campaign chair? You basically need to ask who is the most influential person in terms of who’s who provoc perspective, campaign chair, person who’s? Who are they most likely say yes to ok. And that’s also the campaign pre campaign committee simply asked that question and hash is without among them and that’s, the person you asked, okay? And around a giving a gift expectation for the campaign chair. Certainly the person’s going to need a campaign they have to give. Correct. What do you like to see in terms of asking what? Telling them what they’re what the charities expectation is around that in an ideal world, they would give the elite gift. Uh, but way lived in an ideal world. You’d be on a much better. Show them this way. So we know that that’s out. Okay, i would be much more fluid. Uh, so you more support thing is influence not with e-giving ability of course you want them to give you want. You prefer to get them to give a major gift they clearly have to give, but they may not be able to give at the league gift level. Okay, uh, but their primary role is to be the chief influence in the campaign. So if they’re involved, you want everyone to say, wow, this is this is an important bilich event or important campaign in our community because this person i see ok, and also they become the person that it’s hard for other people to say no to write that’s, right? Because right, because they’re going to be responsible for recruiting other volunteers and asking people for gift. So say little about that, okay, the, um the campaign chair person will be responsible for recruiting the division chairs and that’s going to vary from community community, uh, in a larger city, you might do it by, you know, geography or, you know, a suburb or by industry that’s sort of part of the planning process. But whatever divisions you come up with, there needs to be a chairperson for that debate division. And, uh, you want your campaign chair person to recruit, recruit them. Okay, right. And you want to make that somebody that it’s hard to say no to that, right? Okay, so let’s spend a little time. By the way, just listeners were talking to rich boss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising we’re talking about the use of volunteers in your campaign rich why don’t you tell people where they can find your book? Green light fund-raising that or okay, green light fund-raising dot org’s let’s talk now, since you’re starting to lead us there. But you’re not taking over the show, which for some some guests get a little presumptuous. Take over the show. You’re not taking over the show. Appreciate it. I’ll follow your lead. You’re in trouble going off a cliff. Thie let’s talk you started brought into a bigger staff of volunteers. What should that? What? It’s? A little more. Besides the division heads. What should this broader volunteer kadre look like? Okay? One of one of the things that the development director needs to do is to develop a gift charges and the gift chart basically says what level of gifts need to be asked for and received in order to achieve. The goal, and then there are are once you have that, you can identify the number of volunteers you do, and i won’t go into all the process. But basically for every gift you need, you need three prospects. Right? Okay. And you want your volunteers to, uh, ask five people for gift. So this is hyre mathematics now. Okay, it’s. Just a matter of each volunteer. No, it’s hyre math for me anyway, so every volunteer as to ask five people that’s, right? Ok. That’s, right. And so well, you can figure based on your gift chart, you can figure out what you need to talk to so many prospects. And are you okay? Tio, meet your goal and you divide that by five. And then, you know, you’re a number of volunteers, okay? And that’s another one of the resource is that we have is that is not in the list of raving. Okay, there’s there’s a, uh an excel spreadsheet that has, ah, gift shark in it. And it also includes the breakdown of volunteers. Okay, excellent. And again, you’ll find those on the linked in group for the show and also the facebook page and then those air links back to teo richie site um, now we like to see volunteers recruiting their own teams isn’t isn’t that right? Yes, rather than having them posed by the staff that’s, right? It’s basically, because, you know, this is all volunteers doing it. They’re going to have to the leaders of the team leaders we’re gonna have to yeah, you know, do some gentle pushing to get things done, and they’re going to be able to do that much better with people that they know their friends. And so you want them, you want to strongly encourage them to recruit people that they know it, and, like and trust that the charity is putting a lot of faith and trust and like into it’s volunteers? I mean, there really are e-giving a lot of responsibility to this to this volunteer. Kadre yeah, yeah, and so, you know, one of the one of the the important roles, but particularly the development director does is is built strong relationships with the campaign leaders so that the campaign league leaders know that they’re going to have the support of the staff, and it really gives them confidence in their work and that kind of flows through the whole campaign. Okay, just the important point that this really is a ah delegation to the volunteers it is it is, yeah, yeah, and part of what happens is that, you know, i emphasized over and over again is you have to tell the stories of your non-profit because these dramatic stories of either wives transformed or also of, uh, the needs of non-profits mitnick is meeting really energizes the volunteers and gives them really meaning and purpose and what they’re doing way have a segment on the next show. My guest is rochelle shoretz and she’s going to talk a lot about storytelling in rain in the second half of next week’s show. Great, because i would really encourage people will listen to that or has, uh, stories are just absolutely essential when working with volunteers, which what is it that you love about? Fund-raising it seems, lives transformed, you know, the i’ve had so many people, you know, talk to me over the years and say things like, man, i can’t do that, you know, that’s begging for me, it’s not begging, you know, i tell people, you know, a panhandler bag. A fundraiser transforms lives. Yes. Give us a story. Give tell a little story about some some life that you’ve seen transformed our lives. Yeah, i was actually influenced in developing this model by doing a capital campaign. And, uh, when i did this capital campaign, i was working for an organization that provides services to people of developmental disabilities. And, um, there were about seventy people that we had living in a nursing home, and we wanted to shut that nursing home down and make it possible for them to live in a small group, homes. And there was one guy, particularly, uh, and, uh, i want to give his name, but i would talk to him. And any time this topic came about pizza, you know me. I like peace and quiet. And he was living in an extremely noisy nursing home, you know? And, uh, i remember we did this campaign. You know, it was a tremendous dahna taking for the organization never dahna campaign before raising one point, two million dollars dahna, uh, community of, you know, seven thousand people. And i went and visited him in his new home. And that was so moving you. Know to see him, you know, getting the peace and quiet and he’s long he probably living this nursing home for twenty years or so, you know, and see his life. How has changed? It was just amazing just by having a quiet environment very touching. Yeah, rich, we have just a minute left. I’m going to hold you to that. But can you tell us what? What lesson? What a lesson that we might all take from the mennonite community around fund-raising of the mineral rights. Uh, not only do fund-raising but they’re also very action oriented. One of their one of our services called mennonite disaster surface and so many knights from all over the u s will go to places where tornadoes go through hurricanes and they’ll clean up. No, they were down in in er not bad. Duitz of louisiana, new orleans, new orleans yeah, you know, helping clean green. And i remember hearing the stories of, you know, incredible work that they did buy the good friend who is on their way. I have to stop their rich shirt rich boss is joining us from rural illinois where he’s, the leader of a mennonite community. He’s, the author of green light, fund-raising, which you’ll find at green light fund-raising dot org’s rich. Thank you so much for being on. Yeah, thankyou. Tony, i really appreciate being here. It’s been my pleasure. Thank you. Now we take a break, and when we return it’s tony’s, take two little more live listener love and then gene and emily on fiscal sponsorships. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot order or a nj dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. I’m ken berger of charity navigator. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back, we got live listener love going out to laurel, maryland and also malaysia. I don’t know which city in malaysia, but laurel, maryland, malaysia welcome tony’s take to my block this week encourages people to listen to the show you are obviously already past that, so i have the advanced course for you. I want you to know that i continue the conversation from the show in the linked in group last week, i had a follow up question for michael o’brien about civil disobedience, which we didn’t get a chance to talk to talk about in his conversation around grassroots organizing, and this week, as i mentioned, the templates and other resource is from rich foss will be in that linked in group. They’ll also be on the facebook page, so next time you’re on linked in, please check out our group and join also twitter no there’s me and the hashtag, and you can follow me on twitter the hashtag of courses non-profit radio if you want to know who the guests are going to be each week, i send email alerts every thursday on the facebook page. My voice just broke thursday like i’m twelve again, um and you can sign up for those email alerts. I just said that on the facebook page and then you’ll know in advance for the guests are maybe you don’t care. I understand you may just be subscribing and you don’t really care who’s going to be on because you know that the guests are all going to be smart and that the host is in question, but you can always count on good guest. Um, i also won four square. If you want to connect with me on four square, i’ll see where you are in the world and you can see where i hang out. Check me out on foursquare and that is the end of tony’s take two for friday, august twenty fourth, the thirty sixth show of the year we have jean takagi and emily chan gene is the principle of neo, the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco, he edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s g tak g ta k on twitter. Emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage she’s, principal contributor to the non-profit law blogged, and she is the american bar association’s two thousand twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer i don’t know why she’s still on the show. I’m sure she can have certain you could do better than this. Now that you have that appellation, you can follow emily chan on twitter she’s at emily chan, jean and emily welcome back. Hi, tony. Tony. Hello, emily. You’re still on that. You’re still coming on the show. Thank you for that. Everything about you for having me even if you got the prestigious award. Um, let’s. See, we’re talking about fiscal sponsorships. If there was ever if you ever needed evidence that the contributors choose the topics, this would be it fiscal sponsorships. A little little technical, but i’m willing to go into it. What is jean a fiscal sponsorship? Well, i’m gonna try to get a dog in jail. Yeah. Good luck. Were already there. Fiscal sponsorship let’s define this before out and its most common form. It’s. Really a way to start a non-profit project without creating a whole new nonprofit organizations. So basically, what happens? You’ve got a charitable project or an idea that you want to implement. You bring it to a charity willing to serve as the fiscal sponsor on who’s willing to operate that program within the organization so it becomes a negro part of that organization. And you reserve the right by contact. Be able to move the project to another physical sponsor if things don’t work out or you could even move it into your own nonprofit organization that you form once you know that the project is viable. That’s great. Thank you. Okay, you cut out a little bit. There is great incubator, i believe, is what you said, right? That’s okay, so we have the sponsor. Is it the sponsor? And the sponsoring? Is that how we should be referring to these two? Mostly referred to them as a sponsor and the proud sponsor and project. Okay, all right. We’ll keep our terms straight. Okay? And could gene could the could the project be another charity or that that’s? Not that’s, not how it works. Well, the like a smaller charity could be a smaller another charity don’t have to apply for tax exemption. Just actually running a program that you’ve introduced to another charity. And so you’re kind of head of that program. But the program is owned by the other to charity with the caveat that you, khun, take that program and bring it to another charity if the relationship sours in some way. Okay, okay, now, emily, i’m going to guess we would we would only want as a sponsor of our project. Oh, and established charity. Yes, picking the right physical sponsor is a huge part of getting the advantages of a physical sponsorship relationship, as jeanne mentioned. You know, they have a lot of control over the project. They take on a lot of responsibility generally with, like the admin and all the back office things, and they’re also managing the funds that would help fund your project that you definitely want to pick someone or excuse me of charity that has a good reputation in the community has some experience, possibly with physical sponsorship already. So they have the process is in place and one that aligned well with the mission. Otherwise you’re going to run into a certain problems. Sure. Well, and i would imagine a charity wouldn’t wouldn’t take you as a project if there wasn’t mission alignment, hopefully not. And that is a big part for the physical sponsor to be sure that they understand why. They’re taking on certain projects. Sometimes, you know, you’re so eager to want to help a charitable project that you do start to go outside of your own mission without, you know, taking care of your organization. Emerge. That’s risky. Mission creep. Mission creep. Okay, now what? Um what should a charity be looking? Oh, no, wait. I want to want to ask you, emily, you mentioned that the sponsor manages the money, so the money doesn’t belong to the project. It belongs to the sponsor. That’s correct. So entertainment in the typically a project that doesn’t already have tax exempt status, would it really make sense in that situation? So essentially, the physical sponsor is taking in money for the charitable purposes of the project, but that sinful sponsor, in order to not essentially acted like a conduit or to collapse and basically give money teo, non exempt entity. They have to have discretion and control over the funds. So there’s a certain level of oversight that the physical sponsors should be exercising with the project to make sure that it’s no operating properly, that the money being used the right way and that at every juncture, essentially when it does. You use the money to fund a project that is making that decision as opposed to just letting it pass through. Okay. And when you refer to the non exempt entity that’s, the that’s, the project. Right. Okay. Okay, let’s, stay with you, emily. So what’s the advantage for an existing charity cause our clients. Sorry. Our listeners are our charities mostly. And when you guys were first on the very first show that you two were on, we talked about alternatives to creating a new five. Oh, one c three charity. And we just barely touched on this subject. S o we have we have talked about altum other alternatives to creating a charity, but what’s the advantage to an established charity. Emily tbe a fiscal sponsor of projects for the fiscal sponsor it’s really about furthering that sponsored mission. So again, we talked about mission alignment. If you find projects that further, you know, the charitable purpose of your organization, not a huge benefit for the physical sponsor. Additionally, they do take generally a cut of the funds to take care of that back office stuff. I mean, they’re taken care of let’s. Say, you know payroll, you know, their insurance, maybe covering the project. All of these things take some money as well. It’s not really a money maker again. It really should be about furthering the mission. The charitable mission of the existing sponsor. But they do take some money generally in order to cover their cost. Ok. So now, gene, i assume we can just look to the internal revenue code and that will lay out these fiscal sponsorship responsibilities and relationships. Actually, no tony physical sponsor ship is not defined in any laws. I don’t think any state laws and definitely not in the internal revenue code so it’s all about the contract. So we want to make sure that you’re working with an established sponsor who can establish the right contacts to comply under the regular five a onesie, three rules. Holy cow. All right. So eyes. So there must be things that are supposed to be in these contracts. And again, were you know, our listeners are are the charities. So if somebody’s going to take this on this fiscal sponsorship because they do see mission alignment and the things that emily described? What what’s your advice around creating this? Contract if there’s there’s no statutes governing this relationship well, this may sound a little funny, but you’ve got to talk to the lawyers think this arrangement for the does that lawyer have to be the outstanding young lawyer of twenty twelve from the american bar association? You can’t go wrong with that, right? That’s what you absolutely cannot just outstanding and it’s in the title, so we know, but in case you don’t happen to have access to emily, although through the internet there’s no reason anybody shouldn’t be hiring emily, but you’re right, so you definitely this is definitely a legal relationship, and you need a lawyer drafting this contract, right? And to understand your responsibilities as a sponsor, there’s a great book out there from a no attorney colleague of ours, greg colvin called physical sponsorship six ways to do it right. And there’s, a organization called the national network of fiscal sponsors that publishes guidelines for fiscal sponsors and their best practices, including what they put into a physical sponsorship, agreements and policies. Those are definitely things that wanted checked out. Okay, and how does your friend, your colleague, spell his last name? Greg coben, ceo b i n okay. The guru of fiscal okay. Six ways to do it right. But there’s probably dozens of scores of ways to do it wrong. I’m sure in fact we actually put out a block both staying six days to do it wrong. So they definitely are. Did you? Okay, let sze not a copyright infringement. Wait, you do intellectual property work over there in the non-profit exempt organizations law group, not it out you don’t that’s. Very convenient. Okay, so it could very well be a copyright infringement. No, i’m sure it’s not a lawyer now. It’s fair. You some sure or something? I don’t know who does. Okay, so, emily let’s go into a little detail about structures around this sponsor project relationship and just we have about two minutes before first break. So what? What does it look like? Yeah, the structures, there’s models? Yes, there are. There are a handful model that actually comes out of that book that great colden. I wrote that gene mentioned the most popular one is the one that we we’ve been discussing. Model a also called the comprehensive or excuse me. Comprehensive physicals, sponsorship or direct project and it’s, when the charity basically houses the project, okay, in terms of all the management and the insurance and all that, all those things that you laid out, right, so it would be just like any other program it’s operating. Except for that caveat that is a relationship to find my contract. And there is a contemplation that the project may leave at some point. Ok, i don’t model a not a very clever name. I mean, i thought great could come up with something better than model a, but we’ll work with it. He’s the he’s, the guru. So we’ll work within his his, uh, sort of lacklustre. Um, his his, uh what i want to call this this is the, uh uh, i can’t think of the word i’ll think of it later. Okay, um and so all these things that you talked about before these all have to be in the contract, right? In terms of management responsibilities and insurance and oversight and all this it should be. And again, it just helps to lay out exactly what this relationship is going to look like because of the fact that it’s defined by the contract, i mean any pickles sponsorship could look a little different from another one. That is important to contemplate as much as possible at the outset as opposed to finding those problems. When you start trying to do this, ok. And the one that interested me, that gene mentioned a couple times is the right to leave the, uh, leave the, uh the the sponsor. Yeah. So that’s, very important for both the project on the sponsor to understand what terms and conditions might apply for that. So in some cases, maybe this sponsor is going to require that the project finds another five oh, one c three entity to house it. Maybe they’re willing, teo, do some other kind of due diligence to grant those funds that they held for those charitable purposes to the project. These are all things that you really want to think about beforehand. Ok, ok. Rubric. That was the word i was looking for. Model a is a rubric. This all falls under the rubric of model a i do. It was the board would come to me rubric. Of course, we’re going to take a break. And when we return, gene and emily stay with me. And we continue talking about fiscal sponsorships. That’s, another rubric. Com. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com how’s your game want to improve your performance, focus and motivation? Then you need a spire athletic consulting stop, second guessing yourself. Move your game to the next level, bring back the fun of the sport, help your child build confidence and self esteem through sports. Contact dale it, aspire, athletic, insulting for a free fifteen minute power session to get unstuck. Today, your greatest athletic performance is just a phone call away at eight a one six zero four zero two nine four or visit aspire consulting. Dot vp web motivational coaching for athletic excellence aspire to greatness. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back. We’re talking. Toa jean takagi and emily chan are regular legal contributors about fiscal sponsorship. I want to send live listener love out to little wet british columbia, canada, and i apologize if from mispronouncing it, if it’s in the way or something different than i just said it, i apologize. We got last week, we had ontario in ottawa, where’s, where’s, saskatchewan. Why is saskatchewan in manitoba? Never checked in alberta? Never checked in. We need to get these provinces listening live gene let’s, turn to you and see what else we might flush out about other models around fiscal sponsorship. So since we have the very rich model, eh, there must be a model b. There are the model ate a model at the rubric. Okay, rubrics, the lackluster rubrics. I’m sorry. I’m sorry for your colleague. I’ll stop calling them lackluster. So okay, what does model be matter or or his model? See better than be? Or how does this work? Well, model is by far the most common form. Okay? I was believed to be that in, like, eighty to ninety percent of the cases. The next biggest is model b, which is called a preapproved brandt relationship models this is you cut out a little bit there. This is model season charlie model using bravo baizman bravo is not as popular as sees charlie that’s. Right? So shouldn’t see bebe. It kind of flows from the structure of the i don’t know if we can recommend this book anymore. No obstacle. Ok, tell us about model charlie model charlie is the way that an existing non-profit that still doesn’t have tax exempt status, perhaps it’s a fight to the irs but hasn’t received determination yet. Khun starts to get fun now. The sponsor can act as an intermediary if you will receiving grants intended for the project, but foundations aren’t willing to. That project until it has its own five. Oh, one team status. So it gives it to the fiscal sponsor. The fiscal sponsor re granted to the project. But it has to use its own expression and control in order to make that re grant. The foundation’s put the onus on the fiscal sponsor to do all the due diligence. Okay, emily, how does this differ from model a alfa? I’m in a lot of ways, actually. So going back to model a it’s, the project is not its own entity. It’s really? Just a program, essentially that’s being operated by the fiscal sponsors. So all the employees, all the volunteers, all the liability, it’ll sit with the physical sponsor model. See, you have more separation. So he mentioned that its own entity now the project. Maybe. You know, it’s, just the taxable corporation. It might be in its period right now. Where? It’s, waiting for its five twenty three determination. So a lot of more of the liability from that program that it’s running a charitable project with the entity. The other entity, not the physical sponsor. Okay, so this is it. Shifting the responsibility is different. That’s how? It’s different than a okay, emily, what are some examples of fiscal sponsors like could could’ve come? It is a community foundation of fiscal sponsor or could it be? It could be they’re really as there is no riel limitation on who could be or what type of entity could be a physical sponsor. Generally speaking, you see it more calmly and just five a onesie three entities, because they’re able to get those contributions that can offer a tax deduction to individuals as well as bring in some private foundation grant. So you see it a lot with five eleven three entities, but as far as the mission of those entities or what it is that they’re doing this there’s no limitation on that, okay? And just we have just a minute left. Emily, where do we usually see this conversation begin? Does it does it start with the ceo of the of the sponsor thinking about bringing in projects or just started the board level where i think it actually starts with the project approaching on today’s out there that either have already decided to do it? But i think most commonly, it might start with the project. That is looking for a physical sponsor. Gene could shed somewhere like him and he actually sits on the board of community initiative, which is a physical. Okay, jean, we have just thirty seconds. Do you want to shed some light as emily cast it upon you? Sure, there’s a website called fiscal sponsored directory dot org’s, which is a good place to find a physical sponsor in your area or in your eyes. Area service. So that’s a good face to go to community foundations often engage in sponsorships and sometimes there sponsoring a project that our collaboration amongst many existing non-profit organization okay, we have to leave. I’m sorry, we have to leave it there. But that website again was fiscal sponsored directory dot org’s jean takagi. Principle of neo non-profit exempt organizations law group emily chan and attorney at neo-sage even emily, thank you very much. It’s. Always a pleasure will talk to you next month. And also, of course, want to thank rich fast for being on the show next week. We’re pre recorded because i’ll be on vacation in beautiful block island, rhode island next week. We’ll have. I had a great interview, but i didn’t get the job suzanne felder was with me at fund-raising day this past june. She’s, a consultant in outplacement for lee hecht harrison and she has advice around job search. Then, as i mentioned earlier storytelling with rochelle shoretz, founder and executive director of shark charette, they have built a culture of compassionate storytelling to help their members through their cancer diagnoses and treatments. Rochelle will have really valuable ideas on helping your charity create stories and who’s best to tell them, and she has her own touching story as a two time breast cancer survivor. Come, i want to shut out one more live listener love right here in the studio, indianapolis, indiana in the studio actually, carmel, indiana, to be exact live listener love in the studio, you know that i host a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy? Did you know that? Did you know i do it’s fund-raising fundamentals? That one is a ten minute monthly podcast and it’s on ly devoted to fund-raising topics i have a summer siri’s going on on grantspace eking the latest is building relationship with foundation program officers, and the first two were researching foundations and writing winning proposals. It’s called fund-raising fundamentals you’ll find on the chronicle of philanthropy website. You’ll also find it on itunes, continuing to wish you good luck. The way performers do around the world last week was chalk us, which means chicken in australia, in slang australian do you remember why they say chicken? You’re gonna have to go back and listen, i don’t have time to tell you today from spain monisha merida, a lot of ship, it comes from the success of a play. People would arrive at shows by carriage and what pulls a carriage, horses and what their horses leave behind shit. So the more of that you have, the better your show is. So i wish you much mierda for the week. Our creative producers claire meyerhoff, with this kind of content it’s hard to believe we have a creative producer, actually. But there is actually is one but she’s not responsible for these language lessons and this performing that comes from janice taylor. So i want to thank janice taylor. Sam liebowitz is today’s line producer shows social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Oh, how i hope you will be with me next week. One, two, two p, m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. Durney dahna. I think a good ending. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get anything. Cubine hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks. Been radio. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s two one two seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Buy-in you’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. Be more effective, be happier. And make more money. Improving communications. That’s. The answer. Dahna