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Nonprofit Radio for May 19, 2017: Healthcare Funding Options & Leadership Options

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Chris Labbate: Healthcare Funding Options

You have options today! First, Chris Labbate walks us through fully insured; self funded; level funding & minimum premium, so you understand your choices paying for your employees’ health insurance. Chris is with Marsh & McLennan Agency.



Gene Takagi: Leadership Options

Gene Takagi

Then, we talk leadership options with Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group. Co-CEOs anyone? How about holacracy?


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Oh, hi there. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host this is show number three hundred forty, the three hundred fiftieth non-profit radio is going to be coming up it’s on july twenty eighth, three fifty music comedy special news i hope you’ll be with me for three fifty i’m sending spies special a pre show special live listener love to the fans of crystal a bat this insurance guy has a big fan base that this guy’s, a rock star who sells insurance live listener love to chris’s special live listeners, and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with my own militia if you try to soften me up with the idea that you missed today’s show health care funding options today is options day first, kriss la bat walks us through fully insured self-funding level funding and minimum premium. So you understand your choice is paying for your employees health insurance chris’s with marsh and mclennan agency and shared leadership options. We talked leadership options with jean takagi are legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group co ceos. Anyone? How about holacracy shared leadership on tony’s? Take two. My finger is still wagging, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We be e spelling dot com for all his fans. And, of course, for everyone else. Here is crystal bat with health care funding options. My privilege to welcome chris lay back to the studio as regional executive vice president at marshall mclennan agency, chris is an authority on employee benefits, including customer driven health plans and alternative funding. He shares his expertise and twenty eight years of industry experience to help you see how innovative employee benefits and hr programs can lower your costs. The company is at mm a hyphen and e dot com crystal bat. Welcome to studio. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here. I’m glad you are. Thank you. Read your colleague last week. Mark. So you’re going to shine like mark shine did yes, i know you’re up to it. All right? So we are we’re talking about funding funding options for employee health. Let’s, let’s reassure listeners first, this is not going to be impacted by health care reform that may come or is not going to be impacted seriously, right? Yes, that’s that’s correct? Most likely, the funding options will stay the same. Okay? Because we really can’t predict what’s coming out of congress, but we don’t expect the general ideas around funding that you and i are going to talk about to be impact. Correct, okay. Right? We don’t make the show irrelevant in two weeks after. Okay. All right, so it turns out you don’t have to fully fund. I mean, i think probably the majority are ah, now i know you do have some stats, actually, but i’m thinking small and midsize non-profits probably most of them are just osili insured, fully insured, really insured plan. Correct, but you have options. Correct. So? So in a fully insured plan, you’re just paying a fixed monthly rate that the insurance carrier sets for your organization and if its profitable to them it’s profitable them. If it’s not profitable, they’re taking on the all the risk skin and losing out. Yeah, okay. They probably don’t lose out too often, though. I’m guessing they might lose one year, but they’re probably gonna lose two years in a row over the long term state business. They have to make profit. Okay. Exactly. All right, so i think pretty. Yeah. People are pretty accustomed to that. The fully fully insured and ah it’s easy it’s level payment, i mean, and you know exactly what to expect. Her employees have a set of benefits and it’s all easily defined and of course, insurance, company’s, managing it right. So we’re just talking about the financing of the benefit plans, right? So that’s, often transparent to the employees, don’t get involved with that. So the employer is just paying the fixed costs, and they’re all there are alternatives to the fully insured, called self-funding, which can be explored for more, most organizations, five employees on up. Ok, so even for the smallest organization, correct benny on the state. But, yes, okay, okay, cool. S so this is going to be impacted by state law. Also, correct, yes, all right. Um now, if we are, if we are self-funding then we’re taking on some risk, correct, you’re taking on a portion of the claims risk so that portion you’re going to fund as the claims come in, but what’s often misunderstood about self-funding is that there are insured components built into self-funding so it may not be at the same level that you have. You’re fully insured, fixed rate, right? But you do have insurance components to protect you. Two different suits to specific types. There’s ones called specific insurance to protect you against any one person having a claim over a certain amount. Okay, you decide is the employer and you purchased that coverage of twenty five thousand fifty thousand. If a claim hits that level, the insurance kicks in, and then the second is called aggregate insurance, which is protection that your total claims that going don’t go over certain amount. Okay? All right, so i got you. I got you so you can. There are some. Yes, there are some insurance protections built into self-funding. All right, now you do have some stats about, um um about what? What? The percentages are around. Who’s self-funding. And how it’s. Been changing since nineteen, ninety nine like percentage self-funding vs versus the full, fully, fully insured thank you write. So especially since health care reform has has kicked in there’s been a movement towards self-funding on dh that basically is benefiting employer groups that have a favorable risk of benefits around the country. They’re showing. About sixty one percent of covered workers that have health insurance through their employer are covered under some form of a self-funding plan. Yeah, well, okay, so almost two thirds correct under some form of self self-funding and that’s changed from nineteen, ninety nine that was forty four percent correct. A big change. Okay, okay, um, so if we’re if we’re going to consider this self-funding option, there are some different kinds of costs that we need to be aware of, correct. Right now, we’re just like we have about two minutes before break. So why don’t you just kind of tease out the idea of these different kinds of costs we have to be aware of? And then you’re not going to more detail. Perfect after right after that. So in general there’s, two categories of cost, you have your fixed costs that you’re paying on a monthly basis and you have your variable costs will be, which will be your claims costs as they come in. Ok, fixed, invariable. All right, we’re going to dive into that a little more. We take our break a minute and a half earlier, so and then kristen are going to keep talking, finding out what your options are around, maybe self-funding all are a part of your employee health stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent with chris sabat when we’re talking about funding options for your employee health now, christine, you do not have lots of letters after your name. Last week we had i says that mention mark your colleague market lots of letters especially easy, like sees after name there’s all your where’s, all your credentials, they’re all just built into yourself. Yes. You know, i’ve been in industry since eighty nine, and i have my master’s in finance and marketing. I’m just really the experience in the industry on the benefits side. Okay, okay. Your bona fide? Yes. Okay. Okay. All right. So let’s. Now, zai promised diving a little more on these. Some of these costs that you have to think about taking on if you were goingto fundez self-funding fixed costs like like what? Like what? So the first fixed costs you would have is your cost to administer the plan. And typically you’re hiring an insurance carrier or a company. It looks like an insurance carrier called a third party administrator to perform all the tasks that that insurance carrier would under a fully insured plan. So paying claims customer service id cards for employees booklets. So from the employees perspective, if they don’t know what the funding is, it looks and feels like a fully insured plan to them. There’s no difference. Okay, so you’re outsourcing this administrative work. Exactly. No need for you to hire people to be doing this for you. Exactly. Cos that’ll do it for you. Yes, at a fraction of the cost of a fully insured plan. Okay. Okay. Um and the what? What else? Fixed costs. There’s this ways that now we now we get into some of the insurance coverage mentioned earlier, protecting us against a really unhealthy employer employee or or or or or aggregate. Go ahead. Absolutely. So so most companies that self-funding will have two types of insurance associated with their plan and their purchasing this protection. And the first is called specific insurance protection against anyone large claim going over a predetermined amount. And as the employees you, you picked that amount, whether it’s twenty five thousand, fifty thousand and as that amount goes up, the premium associating it kind of goes down exactly. Okay? And the second type of coverage is called aggregate insurance. And that’s protection that your total paid claims will not exceed a certain amount. Okay. And that’s, very inexpensive coverage. All right. And so these air part of your fixed costs that you’re going to be absorbing? Yes, if you’re if you’re exploring self-funding, you’ll get a monthly bill with your admin costs and your stoploss costs all printed out per employee, just like you get a fully insured premium bill. Okay, okay. On. And then you had the variable costs, which is basically what you’re going to be paying out for doctor visits. Right, etcetera. That right. Exactly. So the variable cost will be the claim’s paid out for your employee population covered under the plan. And in general, when you’re purchasing your stoploss insurance, the underwriter at the stoploss carrier will determine what they expect. Your claims to be given your employee population and then they’ll determine a maximum exposure. So if your claims go above this maximum amount, the insurance will kick in and cover it. Okay, that maximum exposure is usually set ten to twenty percent higher than your expected claims for your popular do-it-yourself kush. Exactly. Okay, exactly. Now, what about reserves in all this? I mean, if we’re going to be doing that, we have to have money set aside for the payment of claim. Exact. Exactly. So when you first go into self-funding plan in the first few months, you typically will not see any paid claims. Somebody goes to a doctor today. It doesn’t get reported two to three weeks from now when it gets paid. Okay, so there’s a cash flow advantage upfront going into a self funded plan, but on the back and if you ever terminate a self-funding plan, there’ll be claims coming into the third party administrator or the carrier that need to be paid based on service states prior to when you terminated, right? Right. That’s called run out or term a terminal liability. Okay, yeah, while you were self-funding toe at the end mean, you benefited in the beginning, right at the end. Claims are still going to be coming in as you exact your i guess. Or now fully insured. And you ended your your self-funding crackers. But but so that has to be a reserve fund, right? Don’t law must require something like you’ve gotta have ah dedicated account or something with the money. For the old yes, so typically a joint bank account set up with the third party administrator there paying claims out of this account when you had that crash flow advantage at the beginning of the program when your first during out self-funding we recommend that you just bank that money and that’s setting up the reserves for the event if it ever happens where you cancel the self-funding plan, okay? And how about knowing? Oh, well, i guess that goes into your expected cost. Me knowing how much to put into this reserve correcting for for a decent sized organization, i don’t know, like ten employees, i mean, could conceivably be half a million dollars or something. I mean, i’m just numbers don’t stop my head, right? You’re going to be more precise, you’re probably gonna say, well, it’s gonna depend on age, right and correct help histories, etcetera and it’s broken out by the underwriters on a monthly basis. So, you know, so when you get your stoploss coverage, they’ll give you a claims factor per employee per month. And that is how you calculate the number of employees times that claims factor gives you your exposure for the expected exclaims focus and that’s the amount that’s got to go in this dedicated reserve for typically yes, now you can’t you can’t be using this money for other purposes correct it, sze designated restricted or something for the self-funding plan? Yes, it should be air marks for the self-funding plants. He had the money available to pay their letting your employees down your absolute, obviously seriously. Okay. Okay. We don’t want people run operating that. Okay, um all right. So we’re talking a lot about self-funding what are what are some of the reasons you that non-profit might actually think about doing it? There’s some advantages? Yeah. There’s some big advantage associate with self-funding the first is there are a bunch of hidden taxes and fully insured plan. So under health care reform, there’s four four and a half percent in taxes that get attacked right onto a fully insured great. Okay, now, health care reform. Today on the day now, we’re recording couple weeks earlier, then this is going to air. So health care reform by that you mean the affordable care act? Correct? Or obamacare? Correct. Okay, not something that may be happening in congress in april of this year in may of this year is that right? That’s correct. So in the affordable care act, there’s a tax on non-profits that are any fully insured krauz any fully insured plan has attacks built into it that gets funded, the funds go right towards offsetting the cost of the affordable care act. Was it attacks on the amount of premium? You correct? Oh, interesting. Okay, right. Forty five percent you sent were correct and there’s also in some states and local taxes that get applied to fully insured plans. So when your self-funding you’re circumventing the state rules and some of these fully insured taxes at a federal level, yeah. Okay. All right. This one advantage. All right? What else are there? Other reasons it we have? Ah, younger, healthier group. You’re going to benefit because you’re paid claims will be much lower then expected or similar to expected. And then you’re paying less than you would under a fully insured plan now wouldn’t and ensure offering full insurance? Wouldn’t they be factoring in that you have a younger, healthier workforce. So health care reform change some of the factors that go in. They do account. For age coverage, tear with a single or family coverage if you’re a smoker or a nonsmoker, but generally you’re paid claims in a small group will not count towards calculating your rate. Wait a minute, we better impact that statement. Hold on, you’re paid claims in a given group will not will not what? I came here if you’re unaffiliated, if you’re in a fully insurance plan small group market? Yes, your claims do not drive your rates typically. Oh, they don’t correct because it’s the law of large numbers, they’re playing, they’re not going to base your rates on your claims. If you’re five people or ten people that’s what healthcare form actually did away with to try to stabilize the small group market just like those of us who are individuals, we go to the exchanges. It’s my premium is not at all based on my history could i mean, i think they might have asked if i’m a smoker. But that’s all yes, that’s one of the factors taken you okay? So we’re getting very small. So that’s at one end of the spectrum, tiny individual. I see what you’re saying. They’re all right there it applies to small groups as well. So i’ll give an example of you if you’re in a fully insured plan, you’re paying fixed rate every month and say your premium comes to one hundred thousand dollars a year. Okay, now, if you wanna self-funding plan, you’re paying your fixed costs, which might be twenty or thirty thousand will estimate and then there’s seventy thousand and projected claims what your claims only coming at ten thousand, you’re only paying ten thousand wonderful insure plan you pay the full hundred thousand still alright, so there’s an opportunity here for a new organization to engage in employee health, health, health and wellness, right? Yes, if you’re going to go fully every, i’m sorry if you’re goingto self-funding you can enjoy some benefits of every every, every two weeks, we have a five k run or, you know, whatever i say, right? I mean it’s perfect segway twenty foot that one of the next advantages. If you have an active wellness program where you’re engaging your employees and getting healthy, that can parlay into fewer claims and under self-funding plan, you benefit directly from that you’re not paying out claims on un employees that don’t go to the doctor. Okay? What size organization do we have to be? Or was it eliminated completely under affordable care act, where they would start looking at our claims history and our wellness programs? If we were going fully insured so it vary state by state eso it khun b fifty employees, one hundred employees and and more. All right, you have to be that size for them to start factoring in your individual act. Your program’s done. But i mean, you could have, like, smoking cessation. You could have, i don’t know. Organization provided fitbits and everybody’s got eight or ten thousand step daily minimum, right? You can have all kinds of programs to try to save yourself. Money. Those air, those air common wellness programs. There’s not innovative thinking, innovative now company and fried. It provided fifty. Now they’re doing that. Yes. Alright. I thought maybe i had some some great insights. Okay, um all right. So i just happened to be a big wellness fan so you could save some money if you doing self insurance. Self-funding self-funding i should say on and there’s a couple there’s. A couple more advantages. Get more transparency. You see, you’re paid claims were under fully insured arrangement. You typically do not especially smaller employers, so you don’t get to see the claims them all employers typically, we’ll not see their claims history because they’re not allowed or that usually carrier policy not to give out paid claims to smaller employers, especially if they’re rates aren’t dictated by plane. So that gives you the ability to better budget for future costs because you have all the information and it helps you design with plan design. So if you know people are over using the emergency room, you might up the co pan the emergency room copay and you might lower the copay on your urgent care centers or tele medicine to try to drive people with lower cost setting. Yes. Okay, so you could drive some behaviors. Okay. I could see that there’s one last one. It gives you the ability to not have to include state mandated benefits in your plan. And that’s, a big benefit for companies who have people across state lines because they can provide one seamless plan designed for all their employees. You say companies. But we non-profit organizations exactly. All right. So different. States have different mandated benefits, correct packages? Correct. Okay, i saw a bit of a little i mean, this is kind of interesting, well, privacy issue coming out of what you were just saying, if you’re self-funding you’re able to see claims history now you know who the unhealthy people are, right? Who’s got bad behaviors, etcetera mean, who wrecked a lot of so the reporting khun b done where’s d identified which just means you’re seeing general information, but it is if you have a smaller the company, you might be able to identify who those people are. S o typically you would want tohave an internal privacy policy, which which follows the hip national privacy standards with a privacy officer and a policy in place to protect that information and only have certain people buy-in certain people given access to the information within your organization. Ok, ok, that actually dovetails with what? What mark and i talked about last week levels of compartmentalization correct categorization, i believe he called. Okay, um, who typically would be looking at this data if we’re going self-funding who looks at this on a monthly basis so typically be somebody in hr maybe. Something in finance and it’s almost it’s, almost always d identified so you know, you’re not going to know who the people are, but they’re looking at it, just seeing what claims were being paid out and budget and future years, and then also the behaviours trying toe like you said, friends instance, if we see emergency rooms being overused, correct plan design, and then we could also just have meetings about listen, people, you know, you’re hurting our you’re hurting the organization by using the as your primary care or something like that, you know, you’re hurting. We’re trying to stay self-funding for for the these reasons because we think it’s better for you then than being fully insured. But you’re making it hard for us to do so right? Get a primary care physician. Yeah, you can have meetings about the right can you talk about? You can talk about that, you can have any things. And you, khun target wellness programs like you reference if you see your population has a history of high blood pressure or a lot of smokers, you can use that information to taylor educational program. Bring people in current, bring people in to talk about hypertension. Manage? Absolutely. Okay. Diabetic diabetes management? Yes. If people are having a lot of diabetes related issues. Okay. Okay. All right. So we still have some time left. What? My voice just cracked still. What? What happened? I asked you what else? What else could we talk about? Some of the some of the negatives with self-funding. So if you’re moving to a self funded arrangement, you have the variable cash outlay potential. So one month your claims can be very favorable. The next month you can have high claims. You do have those reinsurance caps built in protection. Stoploss is you’ve already examined all the jargon. I got tongue now, stoploss but you can still have some variants and some come organisations prefer the fixed costs associated with a fully insured plan. You know what you’re paying your budget for it and that’s your costs for the year where self-funding can vary over the course of twelve months. Okay, um, how does it work? This is a very basic question. But if you if you are self-funding, how does it work in terms of a network of hospitals and doctors? Have you that’s? Good cause. You choose what providers are available to your employees. So when when you hire the third party administrator or insurance carrier to administer the plan there, providing that service for you so you can hire a big insurance company and use their network, you’re renting their network to access those discounts. That’s part of the administrative fees it gets broken out into network rental fee utilization management, he gets into a very a lot, a lot of details broken out, focus. Okay, well, because you can use somebody’s network and not be insured by the exactly you’re taking the risk, you’re just using them to administer the plan. Roger. Okay, i say interesting. Okay, um, what else? We still got a few minutes left, so that zoho your disadvantages of having any of that was that was one big one. The other one is if you ever want to get out of self-funding you have that terminal liability. So if you say i’m canceling my self-funding plan today, you’ll have a couple months of claims to pay out. Still for claims that were incurred prior to your cancellation date. And at the same time, if you’re signing up for a fully insured plan, you’re paying the fully insured rates so it’s like a double payment for a few months to get out of this self-funding plan. I got to get to cool things. I got terminal liability and stoploss yes was going around saying, you sound like a genius, alright stoploss german labbate that’s a term reliability problem on dh that i could touch on to two other quick thing before you do, though dahna the terminal liability i mean, could that could that go on for years? I mean, suppose someone made a claim while you were still self-funding and then they continue to have related issues to that claim like so i don’t know what a surgery that went bad or something, and then years later, they’re still having, like following surgeries to that infection from when you were self-funding what good question so it’s driven by the nhk earl date of the claim? So if i go to a doctor today and i’m self-funding today, it gets paid dahna self-funding plan for that same condition if i go to the doctor next month and next month i’m under a fully insured plan gets paid by the flame. Shirt plan. Oh, so the general liabilities just the run out. They call it from the from the self-funding period when people went to the doctor during that plan here. All right, so it’s not considered like a pre existing condition. Correct? Where the now insurance company, because you’re fully insured kicks is going is going to kick it back to you from what? Your self-funding days doesn’t work like that. Correct? It does not. Does not. Okay. Okay. All right. That’s, some reliability thisyou xero everywhere you’re in our daily lives. Term liability stoploss okay, what else you got? I could do real quickly to other hybrid type products between fully insured and self-funding. So you have some combination once called level funding, and this gives you the fixed costs of a fully insured plan where you paint a rate every month for employees. But at the end of the year, if your claims are favorable, there’s the potential to get a refund of a portion of the terrible claims. Oh, so you benefit if if claims air. Good. Act. Okay. And if claims are are not good. You’ve paid your rate for the year and you walk away. Okay, well, that’s, because you have what you want had some stoploss coverage it’s all built into, like, a fully insured rate. So you have that fixed rate, and then if your claims are favorable there’s something called a settlement done at the end of the year, you know, if you would get money back, but there’s no potential. The additional dellaccio more correct. Okay. And then you have you said in which another hybrid? Yeah. There’s there’s one more call the minimum premium arrangement. And this is sort of like a fully insured rate, but you’re carving out the claims part of it and your funding the claims as they actually come in. So similar to level funded. But you don’t have the wait till the end of the year to get the benefit of favorable claim get, like month the month? Correct. Exactly. Well, okay, so there’s. A lot of issues to think about, and i guess way just have, like, a minute and a half left or so, but i guess this all comes down to risk tolerance. Exactly. Do you do? Do you want to just write off the wrist completely and give it to an insurance company? Or would you like to get some of the benefits of doing it yourself and maybe even having healthier employees? But you’re taking on some of that risk. Correct your risk tolerance and your ability to handle some cash flow changes from one month the month with self-funding and it really comes down to analyzing what would my costs be under a fully sure plan. Total costs. What may cost being herself funded plan at the maximum claims that’s where the stoploss carrier says you would not pay more than that. Yes, you’re a total costs on. Then what would your cost be under the expected where they expect your claims to be? Given your employee population and looking at those numbers will give you a good feel for where he should be. Okay. All right. Crystal bat. Andi. I demoted him because he’s, a crystal bat is a regional executive vice president at marshall mclennan agency. Okay. I wanna thank you very much, chris. Thank you. Tony called my pleasure. Coming up. We have jean takagi and shared leadership options. More options for you first. Pursuant, they’ve got a new webinar. Big surprise. It’s free designing experiences. That inspired donorsearch every brand elicits a feeling, you know this like think disney, starbucks, united airlines and each of your donors has an impression of your organization based on their experience and interactions with you with your brand. On thursday, may twenty fifth, you can join lutheran, our ministries, brad never ary and pursuance senior vice president hillary noon and learn how to create immersive experiences that inspire greater engagement from your donors and potential donors. Brad is going to share how lutheran our explored the journey of a key audience identified opportunities to improve on their experience with his brand, and they put in practice places that are goingto make measurable impact trying to make change. Of course, this will be archived if you can’t make the live session, but if you can, you register at pursuant dot com quick resource is and then webinars we’ll be spelling who needs to engage millennials? Maybe you’re bored has raised that as ah as a possibility or a need. Do you feel it’s important for your sustainability? Perhaps what you waiting for? We be spelling dotcom get started for pete’s sake. Hosta fund-raising spelling bee. This is not your seventh. Grade spelling bee. You know this. Check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and then talk to the ceo alex career. Set something up or just get more information. We be e spelling dot com. Now, time for tony’s. Take two. That damn finger is wagging again. Are you properly registered in each state where you solicit donations? You need to be listen to my admonishing tone. It’s not going to stop. Where are you sending e mails? Sending direct mail hosting events, maybe buying ad space. Do you have a donate? Now button that admonishing tony’s not going away. Each of these things is a solicitation, and it triggers the registration requirements. Charity registration. You need to get it done. I can help you. You could do-it-yourself. You need to be in compliance in each state where you are soliciting donations. My video is that tony martignetti dot com that is the admonishing tony’s. Take two live lesser love. I’ve got a ton here in the united states of america and not too much abroad. Really. So let’s, uh, let’s. Start here in the us of a with tampa, florida. Very loyal, lifeless and live. Out to you special tampa. You’ve been with us for a long, long time. Woodridge in new jersey, swan’s borrow north carolina, new york, new york and brooklyn. New york really got two out of three borrows this week last week. Course we had all five. But brooklyn. I’m glad you’re with us. Manhattan. Thank you so much, but gives he with that westchester that’s. Not bad. North of the city. Poughkeepsie live. Listen, i’d love to you also, white plains neighbors in westchester live. Listen level so to newjersey caldwell, new jersey, hackensack, new jersey. Still no altum pandu jersey, where my mom and dad are sitting right now. Uh, moving ah! Moving way down south san marcos, texas live. Listen, love out to you, san marcos on then coming back to the northeast, stratford, connecticut were all over except on the west coast. I know what west coast person who’s listening but he’s on the line so it doesn’t count. Not this week. And let’s do germany got to live listeners in germany? We cannot see your they’re so concerned about privacy in europe we cannot see your cities in germany nonetheless live. Listen, love guten tag the podcast pleasantries. They got to go, you know that you’re tired of me saying it, but i’m not going to stop the podcast. Pleasantries have to go out to the over twelve thousand, listening in that method pleasantries to you. Thank you for being with us on your schedule on demand, and the affiliate affections were looking to grow that affiliate list. Our outreach director, belly, betty mcardle belly. No, she’s. Not ever. Billy. Betty mcardle is working on that. But for the effect for the affiliate stations that exist right now. Of course i am. And fm stations affections to you. So glad that you’re station includes us on your schedule. Thank you. Jean takagi is with us waiting patiently. He’s the one i was alluding to, um and he is the managing attorney of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit low block dot com and he’s the american bar association’s twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer he’s at g tack on twitter and i believe he’s calling from an airport. Welcome back, jean takagi. Hi, tony. How are you? I’m very good. Very well, are you, in fact, in an airport? Is that what happened? I’m now at an airport hotel. A little bit better. Okay, where are you? What city you’re in? I’m in los angeles, los angeles. So that’s not far from you for san francisco. Okay. Okay. S a little background noise. I kind of like that. Mixes things up a little bit. Um, if anybody gets difficult while you’re on the phone, you know if you have to drop the phone, you know, and fight somebody off, just explain what you’re doing first before you just dropped the phone. Okay, i’ll make sure i hold them off, ok? All right, well, do what you have to do but inform me first that’s the first your safety is secondary to informing me that’s what? I’m that’s basically, what i’m saying, it makes understood, ok, thank you very much for that. So we’re talking about some shared leadership options. Um what? What brought this to your attention? You know, shared leadership has kind of been a little bit of a hot button issue recently amongst non-profits that are thinking of more equitable practices and in attracting younger people. Millennials, you might refer to the you know, to that group and say that they may not be is ingrained with the hierarchical structure that those of our generation tony, maybe comfortable within used to, and they’re really wanting tio have more of a say early on in their careers, so, you know, shared leadership issues, all sorts of forms are really starting tio to take hold in some practice on dh starting t gain in more popularity so are you seeing this? I guess mostly then in organisations where the leadership is thirtysomething or so well, you’re seeing it from from a lot of younger people, for sure. So living in the san francisco bay area in with silicon valley nearby, and this is not just a non-profit management or organizational structure, this is started in the for-profit world in this sort of spread into some non-profits but yeah, it’s a lot of younger tech companies, like suppose that that sort of kicked it, kicked it off some of experimented with it and left it like medium, but one of my organization that i’m on the board of a compass point non-profit services also experimented with holacracy and while it isn’t continuing in a whole keeping the whole model, we’re keeping aspect of it because you feel it’s really valuable. Okay, now i’m not going to put you in jargon jail because i know we are going to talk about holacracy but you just try to slide by me, and i want you to know that i’m quicker than you. So i i noted it, but you’re you’re you’re pardoned thiss time because where i know we’re going to talk about holacracy alright, so so sort of following from what you’re suggesting i can see the advantages there’s empowerment, there’s, there’s, there’s shared, there’s shared buy-in and empowerment of others. Yeah, and i think that works for leadership development with the team more people having more voices, teo impact what’s happening with the organization, what they’re doing, they become more interested in it that probably helps in recruitment and retention. It helps internal communication and collaboration, and it i think, necessitates cross training because you’re talking and trying to understand what your little part of the organization, how it may impact every other part of your if you’re one of the decision makers, are you’re making decisions as a group? You got to know the other three other parts of the the organization how your decisions are going to impact them. Yeah, i can see that this is not something you embark on overnight, right? Especially in the need for cross training and understanding. What’s going on across the crust of our organization for the thing people are going to be sharing in leadership now. Yeah, absolutely. The other, you know, benefit that has some people. Have been writing about it lately than it actually helps facilitate and succession planning. So we have more people who maybe pull, you know, in the pool of candidates to take over for for a ceo or an executive director. That maybe leaving the organization? Yes. Okay, that’s a good one, right succession plan. We’ve talked about that. Uh, ok, alright. See cem value. Um, but i see some potential downsides to this is going to be a lot more cumbersome for decision making. Yeah. I mean, you can imagine when you have too many chefs in the kitchen. I guess it is the metaphor analogy that people make on dh. So yeah, definitely neo-sage delayed decision making and that khun delay implementation of ideas. So you’re kind of the slow ship that takes forever to turn around. It can result in inefficiencies, and then you may lose opportunities, not acting’s. Quick enough cause confusion at the start. A cz you’re trying to figure out, you know, who’s accountable. How how do we, you know, make a decision? What if we’re split for? For what? If we start tio a form cliques within our organization and then we start to battle or engage in disputes with other factions of the organization. So their their potential bound falls that you have to actually really account for careful. Yeah, potential for open conflict. I mean, one of the things we’re going to talk about his co ceos and, ah, i mean, if the two people don’t agree. I don’t know. Yeah, get factions and jesus, you could start running like our white house. I don’t know. Okay, we’re gonna get to co ceos. All right, um, let’s. See? Well, we may as well go there. Um, what air you saying? Have you seen this? Have you have you seen this one in practice, where there were two ceos? Maybe any of your clients execute this? I mean, i’m just i’m just wondering if you’ve seen it firsthand co ceos, yeah, way have so definitely on. And i think this is actually becoming more of a trend, and i’ve seen it more in the nonprofit sector have limited exposure to for-profit sense since since i left that that world but i think you know, times are getting much more complicated. Management has also become much, much more complicated with, you know, technology changes non-profits are exploring earned income and advocacy and collaborations and employees laws are changing and then non-profit corporate and tax laws are ever changing, and right now there there’s some big, big changes that are planned, of course, on dh. So with all of that complexity, can one person really be the leader through the organization understand all of those those factors and be ableto lead the organization through all of it and that’s kind of why there’s been a little bit of a draw forming co ceos and succession planning is the other thing is, i think there’s supposed to be a huge turnover of executive lake leadership is the baby boomers are starting to age out of their employment, and they’re starting to retire on dh succession is, uh, is a problem if we don’t have adequately trained and experienced people in those roles, and coke co ceo platform’s can really help ease that problem. Ok, but with with all those issues that you mentioned for leaders to deal with, i’m not even sure that to people with their combined skills could manage, you know, can understand all that in the level of depth that that’s necessary. I don’t know, i’m not even sure two people could do it, so yeah, ee don’t know that i’ve ever seen three tio, no, but i’m just wondering if if i’m not sure to really adds that in my sense of it, too doesn’t really add that much more value. You could say it doubles, but i’m not even sure that’s enough, so if if i’m right, then why not just stick with one who has a strong team of people directly reporting to him or her it’s an interesting argument, tony, and indefinitely the single ceo structure is the one that were more comfortable with and probably the one that’s going to teach comin in for a long time still. But first, for some organizations, experimenting with two ceo structures can work out. And i think where we’ve seen this practically is where the two leaders share kind of a long term relationship, so they’ve already comfortable with how they work on dh, how they would make decisions together hyre the areas of responsibility, maybe divided so that one person has final decision making over these fears of the operation and the other one over other spheres, and sometimes, you know, in a very simplistic way, some people just refer to it is the internal management and the external management. Yeah, okay, some of that makes me makes me think of mika brzezinski and joe scarborough. I don’t know, okay, all right, let’s go out for a break and when we come back, jean, i’m going to keep talking about the shared leadership options. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they only levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy, tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m peter shankman, author of zombie loyalists, and you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent um, jean, i’m thinking this is goingto take some time to to implement and, uh, before you start to reap benefits from it, if you if you do it’s not you, you’re not going to see this immediately. The advantages? Yeah, you know, i think it’s going to take an investment on depending upon what level of shared leadership you’re talking about co ceos is probably the a fairly simple level, relatively speaking of shared leadership, but yeah, it’s going to require an investment, it may take a failure, teo, actually get it going the way you want it. So there’s definitely a lot of learning. It relies on it, you know, having a shared vision and common values amongst the shared leaders on if you don’t have that established, you really shouldn’t do this. You have to be careful of the amount of money, time and other resource is that you’re going to have to invest because that’s all got to be budgeted in if you don’t incubated and invested and nurture it, it means it’s probably not going to work. We’re also gonna need a lot. Of patients among our staff. Yeah, yeah, i think that’s absolutely, absolutely right. You run the risk of having that go to mom, go to pop kind of run things, right? Good cop, bad cop. Yes, right. Somebody’s, thie other ones said this, but i said no. So i’m coming to you, right? Right? You got to beat that stuff down. All right? Interesting let’s go to one that i want to make sure we spend enough time on this. To me, it sounds like anarchy, but you’ve said your organization you’re on the board of is doing some of this. The pro you call it program autonomy is what is that? So the general idea and they’re different forms of this, but this this is on the other end of the spectrum of complexity. So this is a complex form of shared leadership where each program or each division oven organization is fairly autonomous, so doesn’t all rely upon going to the ceo on the ceo makes the final decision. Each group within the organization which might be divided into programs, will make their own decisions now don’t know, probably be working with the budget that’s been approved by the board on then segregated out into the different programs. So they know what the operating rules are within within their group. But figuring out how to distribute the leadership and that’s the one of the buzzwords, sum, sum. Avoiding drug in jail again, it’s. Really just distributing the leadership amongst the different programs or the different groups within the organization and there’s. One particular type of model that i mentioned earlier, which i should have waited until we got to this segment. That’s called holacracy on dh. That is a particular form of distributed leadership, where the different groups that that are taking on these local decision making authority rolls are called circles. No, james, no, jane. Yeah. Can you still hear me? Yes, i hear you. Okay, last thing we heard you say was holacracy is made up of circles, but you need to explain. Yeah, so you know, generally the way holacracy works is so it’s a form of program autonomy, although again, the circles or self managed groups don’t necessarily have to be divided into a program that could be divided into function. So there might be one for fund-raising for service delivery, for grants, for events, for public communications. So however, you decide you want to divide up the circles, it’s going to be an iterative process where you’re always modifying it. So every month you’re going to consider whether you should have the same circles or different circles, and each individual is actually going to take a role with multiple circles, and in some cases they’ll be the leader of a circle that’s going to help decision making and help facilitate that circle or that group of individuals within that circle to make a decision. And in other circles they may not be see that that leader on dh, so they’ll just be part of the group that makes the decision making, and they might be on three or four, five circles depending upon what their skills are. All right, this is anarchy to me, but you’re saying it works a compass point, it weaves we’ve tried it for maybe a year and a half, and we’ve decided to modify it so we’re keeping aspects of it. But we’re not keeping the whole thing, so you’re anarchists of anarchy. You can’t even follow the anarchic model of program autonomy. Okay, well non-profits pride themselves on their ability to experiment and hopefully do yes, alright, yeah. So who is but who’s orchestrating the overall? I mean, there’s got to be, doesn’t there? Well, i’m i’m answering my question, but better ask it as a question, doesn’t there need to be one or maybe two people if the co ceos overseeing the coordination of all these pola craddick circles yeah, there, you know, so it’s it’s, largely governed by two principles, one is you’ve got the law on the latto has the board of directors on top of the organizational hierarchy and does require a ceo in most states, or or a president that that’s going to be ultimately in. Charge however, they’re going to be a set of rules and systems, and this has to be very transparent and holacracy so you’re not leaving everybody to go. I don’t know who to go, teo, you know, maybe i’ll ask this person so in holacracy there’s a large set of rules that everybody knows and everybody has to abide by, including the ceo and that’s where how the different relationships between the circles are all codified and how the decision making goes from one circle to another. But ultimately again, it would be a non non-profit corporations you have a board of directors and ceo have to oversee the whole thing and can decide how to modify accordingly. Okay, maybe something for listeners toe look at program autonomy, let’s say i wanted to jump to the most complex one because i want to make sure enough time sometimes our talk at the end, our topics at the end get cut off a little bit. I don’t want that to happen with program autonomy and the holacracy pola craddick circles still feels very crystal lee to me, i don’t know dahna all right, let’s, go to we just have about two. Minutes left explain how the ceo and the board might be the leadership share well for small organizations that particularly all volunteer organizations it’s usually all hands on deck, right? The board is completely active in running the programs of the organization as well as just doing their regular board duty. So, you know, you got the ceo because somebody has to be ceo of a corporation that might be called president or chair of the board, but somebody has got to be identified in that way, and what their decision making authority is going to be will depend upon what the board wants to give to that position, but board make decisions board takes actions on lee at meetings or by written consent, so whenever individuals are actually running programs, they’re not running them as board members. They’re running them of volunteers with certain delegated authority. And what the board has to really be careful of is that they’re making sure that they’re delegating authority for somebody to run an event or somebody to run a specific program there delegating with due care, meaning that they’re not quitting somebody who would be totally unqualified and in experience latto lead. Something of importance to the organization because if it is, gets into trouble, you know, the board could be held for violating the produce very duty’s not exercising reasonable care in making that delegation, and they can’t just say, well, that was another board members, i couldn’t tell them what to do. That’s not the case. Yeah, yeah. Ok, i see. I see i see a greater responsibility and risk for for the board under this one, but it makes sense. I mean, they’re taking a more active role in the leadership of the organization. That’s, right? So that’s, that’s very much shared leadership where all board members see themselves as equal, but when they’re exercising roles that are different from meeting at boards and taking actions like approving contracts are approving, you know, the by-laws there acting as volunteers, so they have to realize that they’re wearing a different hat and the authority has to be properly delegated. We’re gonna leave it there. Jim takagi from ah hotel in los angeles managing attorney of neo and you’ll find him at g tak neos, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group. Thanks so much, gene. Thanks. Have a great day. I pleasure. Thank you. Next week, diane lettered returns with your grants team in and out. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we b e spelling, dot com, our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this cool music is by scots. Time you with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s, why should i give it away? 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Nonprofit Radio for November 2, 2012: Grow Your Grateful Patient Program & Disaster Relief

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Listen live or archive:

Tony’s Guests:

Interviewing Nancy Johnson and Bill McGinley at bbcon 2012
Nancy Johnson & Bill McGinley: Grow Your Grateful Patient Program

Bill McGinley, president and CEO of The Association for Healthcare Philanthropy (AHP) and Nancy Johnson, senior consultant at Target Analytics, sat with me at the bbcon conference to talk about healthcare grateful patient fundraising: why these prospects are critical and very generous; privacy concerns; and, how to start the relationship.



Gene Takagi & Emily Chan
Gene Takagi & Emily Chan: Disaster Relief

Charities want to help Hurricane Sandy victims. In the rush to help you can’t ignore the rules around private benefit, needs assessment and documentation. You’ll be on the right path with our regular legal contributors Gene Takagi and Emily Chan, from the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group.


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Dahna hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, i’m your aptly named host. My thoughts this week, of course, are with everybody affected by sandy up and down the northeast than into western new york, the finger lakes and ohio. My thoughts are with you, i am calling in from north carolina because i couldn’t get back home in time to do the show. So what? We have a show and we’re proceeding, i hope you’re with me last week. Oh, it would hurt me deeply tto learn that you had missed a conversation with janet eggers she’s, a senior vice president of products and marketing for blackbaud at their bb con conference last month, we talked about what’s coming in the non-profit technology market, special considerations for purchasing technology and leadership lessons that she learned from being a triathlete. Also gps global positioning. Scott scott koegler is the editor of non-profit technology news in our technology contributor, we talked about location based services that use the gps technology in your smartphone. Four square, instagram, yelp and facebook places are examples of sites that you can learn from your partner. With to get to know your donors and volunteers better this week grow your grateful patient program bill mcginley, president and ceo of the association for healthcare philanthropy, hp and nancy johnson, senior consultant at target analytics, sat with me at the bb con conference to talk about health care, grateful patient fund-raising why these prospects are critical and very generous privacy concerns and how to start your relationship. Also, disaster relief charities want to help hurricane sandy victims, but in the rush to help, you can’t ignore the rules around private benefit needs assessment and documentation, you’ll be on the right path with our legal contributors, jean takagi and emily chan from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group between the guests on tony’s take two i have a bunch of sandy disaster relief organizations that are doing very good work, and i’ll share some of those. If you’re on twitter, you could be using the hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us. You take a break and when we get back, we’ll go right into grow your grateful patient program stay with me! They didn’t think dick tooting getting dink dink dink dink you’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. E-giving, you could joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city in pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot or or a nj dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Yeah. Geever. Durney durney welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty twelve we’re in maryland, just outside washington, d c my guests are nancy johnson she’s, a senior consultant, target analytics, blackboard company, and bill mcginley, president and ceo association for healthcare philanthropy, both of you. Nancy bill, welcome, thanks for taking time on a busy day. Delighted fundez your seminar topic is best practices for successful healthcare fund-raising strategically grow your grateful patient program. Bill president, ceo of association for health careful answer. I’d like to get the articles right that got you surrounded. Details report. I like the articles. Why is a grateful patient program critical to healthcare? Fund-raising let’s start with basics in health care and our group, particularly those were representing providers, hospitals, medical centers, long term care, hospice and such. The group that is connected that has had an experience that has been touched by the provider is a very important group. They’re very generous, they are involved. They know what the organization is about, what it can provide. So there they are more generous, the average member of the public simply because they’ve had an experience with the institution they know what it’s like they are part of a major part of the family, which is the physicians, the employees, the governance, the executive, the trustees of the hospital, and grateful patients. They represent over fifty five percent of individuals that give healthcare so they’re essential for us and their big givers help me understand why they’re not unapproachable because of privacy laws. Well, they are very approachable, and privacy rules allow the health care provider access to demographic information, so names, addresses of patients are part of what we do internal for our fund-raising is perfectly acceptable. So it’s acceptable for the clinician to share with you development office is that right? Think the physician at the hospital, the nurse, the janitor can refer a name to the foundation for somebody who might be interested to get okay is perfectly acceptable in permissible under the law. And nancy, why don’t we start with some of the tips that you have for growing this very important grateful patient program? Fifty five percent of individual fund-raising to health care’s from these people. How do we get started? Absolutely well, one of the main objectives have to be able to find the people that are. In the hospital immediately so that the foundation can really approach, not approach them for it. I’m coming to say hello, i’m introducing you to the foundation and letting you know that our goal of the foundation is to increase the awareness of what we do to help raise more money. And so what we see is the opportunity to find the best people to make the right gift at the right time, and what we’re doing is identifying with people that are most capable as well as the people that are already connected. How do we start that conversation? Once we’ve identified people, how do we initiate conversation while they’re in the hospital? It’s a quick hello, i want to connect with you now, if you’re already a donor, i’ve been wanting to meet you. You’ve probably been wanting to meet me. We’ve maybe meditate events, we’ve we’re friends, so you would expect me to come by and say hello to you. So these people were starting with the premise that these are people who are already known through the hospital, oftentimes they are ok. Other times you’re a new prospect. A new patient, that’s just came to the hospital and what’s important is to let them understand and know that we have a foundation that will be working with them for the future. Okay, bill, what do you hear from fund-raising professionals in hospitals about making that initial contact? What kinds of responses are our patients willing to talk? Oh, very much so. And when our members are making these visits there rounding and they’re there in the room with a patient, one of the things that are offering to do is they’re they’re our contact for you, anyone that comes into a hospital to have a procedure that is very unique for the individual. It may be a bit routine for some of the providers are member, you know, really steps across that gap, providing for as a resource answering questions, someone they could turn to for communication to make sure that they’re comfortable, what with what they’re receiving and the kinds of things that they’re going to undergo an experience while they’re in the hospital, because it is a foreign land to anybody. Who’s, a patient who’s coming in for russian scary that can be absolutely it’s unknown and while again, it’s very routine for the providers in the sense that they lived there, they worked there. It is a unique experience for any patient is coming. Nancy, i took you on a slight aggression howto make contact once we’ve identified, but what’s your advice around doing the identification. Current patients absolutely. We have a process that is totally automated, so no human hands touching the data way. Use the black boy as blackwater target analytics. Many of our clients use razors edge as their donor management system. So many of their donors are already no one, and we compare they’re the names of the new admits two there database as well as to wealth program, and we’re putting a radio, letting them know the best prospects for major gifts, the best prospects for annual e-giving and that allows them then to make a decision if they should go visit okay, and or put them into an annual solicitation lorts joining and something even better. Yet, if we’re visiting someone that we know that is a major gift donor. And maintaining their interest in the programs and their opportunity to support activities that are beneficial for others in their this is an opportunity for the foundation to reach out to people with them in the hospital. So i look at it is they’re coming to visit you there, there if you don’t reach out and say hello to them after you’ve had a relationship for years, not really good. I want to say at least a hello it’s not going to be a long visit, but i’m reaching out to you. What if it is someone who’s who’s due to the hospital? Not part of the family, not someone you’ve known for years still appropriate, too. Greet them while they’re in the hospital? Absolutely, i believe that most people when they’re in the hospital, they’re experiencing something unique buy-in it may be the first time they’ve known about the hospital, they become part of the health care family there and by reaching out to them they expect it’s, a buffalo here here’s i discount for gift shop or maybe i’m goingto leave the newspaper behind for you. I come in with a friendly face, i’m not bringing in needles. And i’m not taking blood from you and it’s. A quick high. Okay, okay. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll durney i found that interesting. What nancy said in the session earlier today was that these people are coming to your home. They’re coming to the hospital are home, they’re coming into our facility. Ten there are any experience you have in the hospital there are there five, ten, fifteen people that air in and out that air touching your life during that process and tohave one focal point that could be helpful that, you know, you could turn to if you’ve got questions or a spot that you can go to a person, you could go to facilitate communication and make sure it’s clear among all these services that are being provided is very much appreciated by patients. That’s what we find so you’re encouraging the fundraiser to ask, act as a resource? Yes, from times they do on dh it’s quite appreciated, as you know. All right. So then, after we’ve identified we’ve initiated contact bill what’s what’s another strategy for growing this program. Well, that’s part of what we were talking about today, there are different levels of grateful freight patient programs at the very basic level, you find that contact that call being made that introduction and it may be sixty or ninety days later where we’re looking at that individual and deciding is this someone we wantto make an appeal to our reach out to bout some program or service that we’re offering where their donation can help someone else? Is it someone who’s contributed in the past or who has the capacity to do more? Do we want to put them way want to put an effort in front of them or an opportunity in front of them as a major donor, where they can make a significant difference because of their contribution to the community and, you know, that’s very basic there others where you’re doing the analysis in the analytics, if you will, you’re assessing wealth management capacity so that when you talk with someone, you develop a relationship, you clarify their interests and also the level of what you believe they can support a particular activity in helping others. Now, nancy, you’ll have to forgive me because i’m going to ask bill about what some advice for hospital may not have reasonscall so there are some way to walk away. I don’t want to have a conversation, but i’m just thinking of our audience is small and midsize charities, and there might be smaller hospital. It doesn’t have reasons aid xero identifying you wanna do it right? Well, i will tell you. Okay, identifying grateful patients. We often look we’ve compared to their database no matter what it is, and so doesn’t have they don’t have to be a razors that juicer. The ideas were helping them identify grateful patients and look into the patients that air there so that they’re contributing to their experience. So it’s a step just that they would have to be a mechanism for sharing the information from from no, i don’t know if it’s missions exclusions. It comes from admissions. Typically it kind of sermon ambitions. And then it’s submitted and and no one really has to touch it. It’s, elektronik lee done. We screen it, and then the results are back within ninety minutes so that the foundation can decide. Okay, who’s the best person to go visit this oversignt bilich and our members are clearly using razors, edges of tools. And one of the best advantages of this as a tool is simply that expands our members capability beyond it. Maybe multiple be able. To multiply the impact, one person can have two, twice a ce much three times as much because it is some of it’s automated but it’s more instantaneous than than operating off of written records comparisons that you’re making relative to wealth management to an individuals in the hospital or who has been discharged is instantaneous, as opposed to trying to make all those connections in your head. So this truly, really expands our members capacity, forgetting to more donors this right on that’s, that’s, invaluable. Okay, well, do you have specific advice for smaller hospitals, health care facilities that whether they’re using razor’s edge or not isn’t an advantage to be a smaller, maybe community hospital? Well, you know, it’s it’s so much like any everything you’ve heard around the world all fund-raising is local, and it is individual in many respects and again razors age is a tool enables that capacity if you don’t have razors, eggs, there are some other alternatives and things you could do all the way back to when i started, when it was, you know, index cards in a shoebox, but it’s, that kind of approach, so there are things in between certainly. Razor’s edge is sophisticated, and really, the value is really an expanding capability. But there are other ways you could do that. Part of it is more manpower, which is hard to get in smaller organizations. Part of it is a process and dedication to that process every day, no matter what the elements are that you put in place so you can make it work. That may not be quite as effective without some of these tools, but it’s still gonna work. Okay, so the smaller community, when i’m familiar with a smaller community hospital, shouldn’t avoid grateful patient program. No, not it all so quickly. If your foundation executive this fund-raising is part of your obligation, your purpose and it’s within the health care community. These are institutionally related foundations to the hospital, right? They’re not out raising money for the you know something else in the community focusedbuyer hospital? Absolutely. Okay, honey. Another area that we all thought blackbaud way want to be able to help all sizes of none. So we eat. Tapestry is a wonderful solution. That is many times used for the smaller community hospital. See tapestries at a cloud based. Is it ok? And so i don’t think we know history tells us we’ve worked together for many, many years that many of the hospitals use razors edge that it like you say some of the smaller, newer hospitals, maybe they don’t need the sophistication, and they have way have a wonderful opportunity for them to use a tapestry let’s talk about some other advice around building back to building this grateful patient program. Nancy what what, what, what what further advice did you give him? Your seven? Well, each hospital is unique. And when they started looking at what makes the program different, it’s getting buy-in from the whole health care community from the top all the way to the to the janitor that’s in the room with someone the foundation needs to be more than the organization of the part of the organization that says, hey, do you want to be, how much are you going to give to the employee program this year? We want to make sure that the foundation is connecting with the nurse is the people that are front line with patients and making sure that we’re hearing you need to stop in and have a visit. Kayman we need to make sure that we’re introducing grateful patient programs that can enhance all the different areas of the hospital so that everyone’s understanding those programs and bringing the community together because really it’s all about the services that were providing to these cubine what’s your advice about getting getting clinicians involved in fund-raising first, they’re busy, my my what i hear and my experience in doing some plant e-giving consulting for hospitals is docks are typically well, i don’t know a good number of doc’s doctors are not willing to partner really with fund-raising with development office for the foundation, what’s your advice for sort of breaking down those walls, i think when you really start involving the whole team and you have a new approach and it may be a totally new approach, you have to think outside of what you have done in the past, health care is we’re having to raise more dollars every year, and when you’re asked to raise more dollars with less, you’ve got to use the right tech what’s what’s into approach help us help the audience understand what what’s one new approach they go to their their doctors by implementing this information so that i can focus within ninety minutes and be able to be next to someone and introducing all the good work we do that makes it takes the guesswork out of it. It allows me to be more focus, and then it also allows doctors to have opportunity to refer people to us and a system in place so that they know as a team we’re working together. Will you have you have advice for breaking down those walls, getting into those characters who are often unwilling it’s, not just the doctors you’re talking about building a culture of philanthropy and awareness throughout throughout the community, right? You do that, you do that. You do that with the orientation, with new and ongoing employees that you have. You do that in the training opportunities with the nurses and with practitioners and such that you’re talking about philanthropy or letting know about the foundation with the physicians, they’re human beings, too. You need to embrace them the way you do others, and there are programs and activities that could be very supportive of areas that they are interested in, either in their specialty orin pieces of equipment. Or things that are going to make their delivery of care much hyre to their patients, so sometimes it has to be very specific for helping them to see what the foundation could do for them if they’re willing. Tto partner and i mentioned that family of donors, the physicians are large portion of that, right it’s not every physician, but it’s, the ones that turn on to see the fact that getting involved this way, and even being philanthropic myself, which, if i do it through plan giving or some other vehicles, can benefit me and directly, you know, that has a meaningful impact on my patients and that’s where doctors focus it’s all about them and their patients seems to me so if we could bring it down to the patient care level, the benefits of working with the foundation, making those clear and one one other element that struck me is that in that culture of philanthropy, what you want to get it too is a point in the overall institution that this isn’t something that’s nice to have. This is something that’s essential that needs to be elevated to the strategic level, the planning of the whole so that the executives on the hospital side are learning to plan for and depend upon and demand that philanthropy be a major part, their business, and what they’re trying to do with it has to come from leadership, right, creating a culture and and we see in our benchmarking service that we do with the standards where you have the ceo of the hospital involved in active way in, you know, signing letters in being president, making some of the calls with you as appropriate, you’re getting a much better result in a much better return on the dollars that are being raised, because donors want to know that there have any impact, and the important people in this business are aware of what they’re doing. And bill, i think we’ve seen that change over the years. The two of us sitting in these seats have watched healthcare philanthropy changed enormously. Wey have to leave it there. Thank you. Nancy johnson, senior consultant with target analytics and bill mcginley, president, ceo association for healthcare philanthropy, thanks very much for being guest. Thank you. You don’t know what you want. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of become twenty twelve. We’ll be back with additional guests. I, you’re here further seconds, stay with us, my thanks to nancy johnson and bill mcginley and all the people at bebe con. It was a pleasure to be there, and i have more interviews from b become twenty twelve coming for you. Right now. We take a break when we return. It’s, tony, take two, and then gene and emily disaster relief. Stay with me. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s, time for action. Join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower. We’ll discuss what you’re born, teo you society, politics, business and family. It’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me very sharp, your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower, radio, dot com every time i was a great place to visit both entertainment and education listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven, it will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com lively conversation, top trends and sound advice. That’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m janna agger’s, senior vice president, products and marketing from blackbaud. Time now for tony’s steak, too. I have a lot of ways that you can help hurricane sandy victims throughout the country because, of course it was not only the northeast, not only new york, that was that was hurt, but the hurricane then you know, from new york city went into western new york and upstate, into the finger lakes region and then into ohio. So nationally there’s the american red cross. Um, you can donate at red cross dot or gq, or you can text red cross two, nine zero, nine nine, nine, and you’ll be giving ten dollars, to their disaster relief fund, including sandy. Red cross is also looking for volunteers, so if you’re able to volunteer red cross dot or ge is the place feeding, feeding america, they have a lot of food and emergency supplies. Water uh, that they’re e-giving throughout the disaster zone and to donate to them, go to feeding america. Dot org’s save the children is also working to provide relief to families and their children metoo they are at save the children dot or ge craig newmark, who has been a guest on the show twice uh he’s, the founder of craigslist and craigconnects and he’s uh, he’s matching donations up to twenty five thousand dollars for sandy victims and he’s doing that through crowd rise. So to give to that fund-raising dot com flash sandy relief. And when you go there, a picture of craig pops up. If you want to be more local in in new york, there are a lot of blood drives. I read hundreds of blood drives that were canceled because of the hurricane throughout new york state. So now we need blood. And if you want to donate blood in the new york city area it’s, new york sorry. And why blood center dot or ge? If you happen to be a techie in new york, you have tech skills. Um, new york tech meet up and new work city are organizing volunteers that have technology skills to help with relief efforts to help new york area businesses and non-profits get their technology back up and running. For that, you can go to bitterly dot slash hurricane tech volunteers. So that’s, uh, which place is that you can give time or money too, in support of people that are really in need throughout the northeast and a pinto, i said, north northern new york state and ohio, and on my block this week is a post called researcher bias in smelters planned e-giving study. Delta company did a a survey of potential planned e-giving donors. These people, they believe, are potential plan giving donors, but i detail in my in my block that still, the company also makes its money in large part bye selling print materials, direct mail materials, no website and consulting services for for outreach. So to me, it’s in there, broad corporate interests to have a bigger base of, of playing, giving prospects than we traditionally have had, and that, to me, creates conflict. They want to sell their services, and they’re encouraging charities to look beyond the what’s. Been the traditional prospect pools in terms of age and boiled e-giving history, and that i detail at on the block again. The post is called researcher bias in altars. Planned e-giving survey and my blog’s is that tony martignetti dot com that is tony, take two for friday, november two forty six show of the year with me now jean and emily. Jean emily, are you there? Hi, tony. This is jean and least beside me, but it’s going to be me alone today. And we hope that you and your family and all your loved ones are doing well. Our thoughts and prayers for everybody affected by the hurricane. Thank thank you very much, jane. I know you’re familiar with natural disasters being in the san francisco area. Yeah, we certainly did. Emily is there she’s just holding your hand or what? You’re not going to die. She pretty much is holding my hand and promising, tell me what to say. Okay, of course. Jean takagi and emily chan, they’re firm is the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo-sage which you’ll find at attorney for non-profits dot com and jean jean’s blawg is gene. I don’t have it in front of me because i’m remote right now. Remind people what you’re what you’re bloggers, please. Sure. It’s just the non-profit lob log non-profit law blawg dot com and emily is the contributor to that as well. Um, so we’re talking about disaster relief, obviously timely. If a charity wants to do something, they’re so moved, maybe they’re in of a neighborhood that was that’s affected or whether they are or not. Can they just start, eh? Sandy disaster relief fund that’s a great question, tony, and, you know, charities are often the centres of their communities, especially in small communities and it’s really great to see communities pull together and non-profits wanting to help, but sometimes the non-profits mission is not aligned, oh are consistent with providing disaster relief. They might be in existence for doing some others types of services, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t help, but it does mean that they may have to take some steps before they help, and one of the things that they need to do is they need to change their mission. So they’ve got to make sure that on their website, on their marketing materials, and particularly if they’ve got a mission statement in their articles of incorporation or their by-laws to change that, to expand it, to be being able to provide those disaster relief services that they want to provide for pete’s sake. So if i want to do something, i can’t just do it the next morning, i have to look at my articles of incorporation first, yeah, you’ve got to get that board together and take a in an emergency action txtgive that that mission statement to the extent that it is constrained by your articles, so you’ve gotta operate consistent with your governing documents. So you’ve got to change those if there is that statement in there, that’s one of the reasons why we like to make sure that the articles purpose statement, they called a certificate of inc in new york, it’s not so specific that you can’t uh, uh, let your organization of all take on things like this in the future and then a tip for revisiting your mission statement for all non-profits so is there a phrase that is safe that is brought enough that you recommend it doesn’t have to say hurricane relief, right? Absolutely. So you can say we’re providing charitable services in whatever area you want to focus on on dh leave, it is broadly is that in your articles, and then you could define it more specifically on your website and on marketing materials like grant applications, but when you decide to engage in a new activity like disaster relief, and that really goes outside of what you’re doing. Perhaps you were providing music education, you know, when you really go outside of that pounds, you’ve got to make sure that you don’t use prior donors funds, which were dedicated towards music education in our example. But you’re using nufer funds once you’ve changed your mission statement to engage in that disaster relief activity. Okay, onda of course, once you start collecting funds for a certain purpose, then you have to use them for that purpose. That’s correct. You can’t then if if the if the disaster is is overcome, you can’t switch your funds back to music, right? So the money that you resent you raised for disaster relief, you’ve gotta make sure that they’re focused on that. And we had some issues with that after nine eleven. And so are some other duvette actors where organizations felt that they had expended enough money in that area and wanted divert the rest of the money into other areas beyond that could be a real danger. All right. Is emily passing you notes right now? She always passes me notice. Okay. Okay. Stop it, emily. Genes genes good on his own. He knows what he’s doing. Okay, so once you then expand the mission statement, if you need to, you also have to inform the irs. Is that right? Yeah, although you don’t have to do that right away. So you can engage in the disaster relief activities, which usually you’ve got to do pretty quickly. But you can report the change in your activities and the change in your mission to the irs when you finally form nine, ninety for the year in which you changed those activities. So for example, you wouldn’t have to file if you were going, you know, finally for two thousand twelve until may two thousand thirteen. Okay, okay. That doesn’t have to be immediate. I just realized i neglected to send live listener love during tony. Take two. And we have a lot of listeners abroad. Tokyo, taipei in taiwan and yung yung in korea and send gen china welcome live listening love to all those foreign countries and also to philadelphia, which is not quite as far into me. I live in new york, but philadelphia’s not quite as far in as those other. Cities, um, pardon me for that, but jean but i have to send my listeners love. Sorry, uh, that’s great. All right, so once so, then once you have expanded your mission statement, if necessary, then is there any limit to what kinds of relief you can provide? Well, there are so you’re still restricted by what we described on our last couple shows private benefit issues. Oh, man, private benefit again? Yeah. You know, charities exists to provide a public benefit, and they can’t be operated to promote private interests. So you’ve got to be careful. So we can’t give a million bucks away. Teo, somebody who was barely hurt by the hurricane that would that would not be appropriate. You’ve also got to be worried about conflicts of interest so forgiving to board members or toe officers of the organization and not in an objective matter, not as part of a charitable class of individuals affected or with preferential treatment to those insiders. That would be wrong, but we certainly can provide funds, services or good ensure that victims have basic necessities like food and clothing and housing and medical assistance and things like that. What can you define a class of people that you want to help. Yeah, i mean that’s, something you should do. So you should say, you know, this is good for business and not only legal reasons, but are we just going to help anybody affected by the hurricane? Are we goingto, you know, really look at financial need? Are we going toe not look a financial need, and we don’t have to. We learned after nine eleven that we can even help communities that don’t have financial disadvantages, but that were hurt badly by the hurricane and or any disaster and weaken give emergency relief so emergency relief services can be given without a needs assessment. Otherwise we want to determine what type of needs we’re looking for. Is it financial need? Is it medical? Need it, you know, for disabled individuals within a given area? Are we goingto limited geographically all sorts of things that we need to target our mission towards? And then when we get this whole pool of charitable class members that want our attention, we have to figure out what type of resources we have and how we decide who to give it to the needs assessment. Is something that’s required or it’s just very smart to do well, it’s it’s really required if you’re going to be required to go the scorning assistance yeah, it’s not so required if you’re just providing emergency assistance. So for giving out blankets and food and shelter in the next couple weeks for the hurricane victims. There’s no needs assessment required for that, you know, it’s pretty obvious who’s in need. Okay, but if we’re gonna be e-giving ongoing, you know, rental assistance payments and that’s going to last for several, several months past the hurricane, then we’re going to think about why are we just giving it to a select few individuals? And how did we choose them? We’ve got has some objective in good faith criteria there. What about helping businesses? We’ve been talking about people. Yeah, that’s actually possible, and some people, you know, don’t realize that that’s possible, but sometimes business owners are financially needy, and that would be okay to provide businesses in that case and otherwise they might be distressed or or to come back community deterioration or lessen the burden of government. And we’ve seen, you know, from the west coast we’ve seen the photos of some of the the impact of the hurricane on the seaboard, especially, and those air communities where, you know they’re not going to recover unless their businesses recover their small businesses. And the small business owners need assistance to get back in there. Otherwise, the community is not going to get back. And so that’s a case where non-profits can actually provide assistance, the businesses as well. Okay, but go and going back to people. We can’t define a class of people that, uh, illegal in or, you know, impermissible in other circumstances just because we happen to know that they were particularly burdened by whatever the, whatever, whatever the disaster is. Oppcoll well, i mean, you could certainly define your class how you want it. But it’s got to be again, pretty objective. So that you’re not, you know, favoring people who either don’t really have a need or favoring insiders of the charity over others. Okay. We can’t target this too specific individuals, but we can certainly say community’s, though, right? Yeah, and it could be a small neighbourhood community that you’re targeting that was especially impacted or where the charity is an existence and it’s kind of the hub of that community, or or we could have more expansive criteria. Okay? Bonem now, so the people need to fit into the the people you’re helping need to fit into that terrible class. As he said, um, a little more about conflict, potential, conflicts of interest? Sure, well, you know, if you’ve got a board of directors of a charity of charities should have and they’re determining who’s going to get aid from the charity, we certainly don’t want them to benefit themselves, though there others, even if they’ve been affected by the disaster, they might be able, teo, be eligible to be considered among the charitable class of individuals and so they might get some benefit, but it would be incidental, and they should certainly not be making decisions on benefiting themselves. They would have to abstain if they’re part of that charitable class on who to pick that will receive help. I mean it. Would be nice if charity’s could give help everybody, but obviously resource is air limited, so they’ve got a decide who’s most impacted or who they want to help the most in line with their mission. And board members and officers of the organization have to really be careful because they’re in power positions of making those types of decisions that that’s the conflict of interest issue. And sometimes when you have outsiders who are part of the selection committee, you know that can create more trust if you get community leaders who are not on the board but involved in selecting who might be able to receive relief that might give some, you know, assurance to the community that they’re not going to only benefit themselves the board of the charity, that is, but it also creates additional conflicts of interest so that we make sure that those people aren’t benefiting themselves, thie outside selection committee members or their families or their business partners or route, you know, and, you know, business relations. So we just have to be careful about those things i see and that’s consistent what we’ve talked about in the past. That’s absolutely right, we have just a minute before break gene it. Would it be permissible for a charity to say that the charitable class they want to help volunteers to that charity? People who have been volunteering with them in the past? Yes, longest that’s a signature una, significantly large enough and indefinite class of individuals it’s going to be okay. So if we’ve got, you know, one hundred volunteers and we’re open to taking more volunteers and we’re going to help our volunteers that’s going to be okay, especially if they if they, you know again, not preferentially board members and officers of the organizations who are volunteers. Okay, but if it’s too small a classic like five people who are volunteers, we can’t sir, you know that just those five people is a charitable class that would be impermissible private benefit. All right, we’re going to take a break team takagi stays with us. We’ll keep talking about disaster relief, and i hope you do, too. Talking. 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Got more live listener love to salt lake city and moscow and dallas, texas also south bend, indiana thanks for joining us live listener love to all those cities, jean what if you collect more money than there is need? Now you’ve you’ve said, you’re specifically collecting it for this purpose. It’s not needed anymore. What do you do? Yeah, that’s really tricky tony so one of the things that’s kinda boyd that situation. So you want to be careful when you read to find your mission? The only way that happens is usually when you defined your charitable class so small that you know you, you raised enough money to help them out through the air. Emergencies on dh you’ve decided you’ve got extra money left at that point, you’ve gotta operate as close as you can t to the charitable purpose for which those monies were collected, donors typically don’t have a right to get that money back, so, you know, you could go to court, and we figure out what to do with that extra money and people could bring you into court, too, to decide what to do with that. That happened with nine eleven i don’t want that to happen, so be very careful of that. You can usually find your way around it as long as you haven’t made your mission and your charitable class so so tiny and specific that that that it becomes a knish you later? Okay, but what do you do with the money? Well, you’re going to use it for close to that mission is possible, and if it’s if it’s really outside of that, then you’re gonna have to go to court and get them tio follow through an approved where that money is going to go and it’s called a sight prey issue. But i didn’t want to get into jargon jail, but i suppose they just have so i pray i like i like how that spell right? See why pr ess, isn’t it? That’s your sigh, pray okay, go ahead, go ahead, tell us, what’s, i pray is show off. Well, i pray it is, of course, latin and lawyers like to use it to impress other people on dh when i literally mean like you’re doing right now, james, i think it is near it’s possible or as near as i may be possible. And i think it’s latin. It may also actually be french coming from the old french language. So it’s often used where people have designated their gifts their charitable gift to certain purposes, and that purpose is no longer required or becomes impossible to fulfill. So that might be, for example, the eradication of polio which the march of dimes had encountered early on. And they needed to change their mission. Later they decided to otherwise polio had, you know, essentially been eradicated with jonas salk back scene on dh. They changed to birth defects. So i pray, is a very common doctrine used when charitable purposes have been completed or impossible to complete further. That sounds like a lot of trouble. Could we give the money that’s excess to another charity that does the type of work that we had raised the money for? Yes, certainly. If they can, if they can, if they khun do those type of activities and we no longer can then that that certainly is permissible. So long, focal donor’s intent and what the charity had said the money would be used for is still used for those purposes, you know. Okay, so there’s a dozen easier way out than going to court. All right, right. So long it again. You didn’t pick such a fine mission that nobody nobody else could do it either. Yeah. All right. We have just about two minutes before we have to go. Uh, let’s say a little more about documentation. We talked about the articles of incorporation amending those and we talked about the nine, ninety in that year. What else is required? Well, you know, what you should be requiring is the type of assistance that you provided, whether it be financial assistance or in-kind good blankets, food, housing, whatever the costs associated to the charity with providing that assistance, the purpose of why you’re giving that assistance and why you’re giving it to those individuals that are receiving the assistance over others. If the board was not making those determinations about who gets and who doesn’t get on dh, there was some selection committee. How did you choose that selection committee? On what criteria did they use for dispersing the aid you want? Also document the names and the addresses of the river citians of the financial aid that you’ve given or significant non financial. Aid given again, this wouldn’t be necessary for emergency relief, or you’re just giving food and shelter and blankets and things. But if it’s ongoing gauge, you wanted to make sure you know who those recipients are and you want to disclose that either there was no relationship between the recipients of aids and an insider, a director officer or substantial contributor to the organization our thirty document that i have one last thing, tony, make sure donors don’t hey don’t earmark their donations towards specific individuals that’s not allowed, so i can’t give a gift and say give it to my uncle, who got affected by the hurricane that we’re not allowed fifteen seconds. Where do we document all this is just inboard mitts you khun documented in board minutes or any sort of organizational document that you you hold and that the organization can attest it is the policy or the practice of the organization. Jean takagi, his firm is non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco and you’ll find him at non-profit law blawg. Thank you very much, jane. Thanks, tony. My thanks. Also to regina walton, live listener love going tow her in san francisco and she also very helpful in compiling the list of agencies that i had for tony’s take to regina, thank you very much. I have a new fund-raising fundamentals podcast out with the chronicle of philanthropy, it is how to recruit and motivate volunteers for your events. You’ll find it on the chronicle website, and you’ll also find fund-raising fundamentals on itunes next week. Career advice for your entry level and junior employees jonathan lewis produces career advice videos with leaders in non-profit social change uh, he his video interviews are free and they’re short, and i think they’re valuable as you lied and mentor twentysomethings who want to make a difference in the world, he and i are going to listen to, and he’ll comment on a couple of clips. One is called mentoring for dummies, and another one is called shut the hell up and also next week, maria semple returns our prospect research contributor and the prospect finder has resource is for researching privately held companies. You know, she always has a ton of free and low cost sites and ideas, and next week will be no exception. You can find us on linkedin reveling in group you can offer ideas for the shows and continue the conversation with guests on linkedin. We’re on facebook, you know that i haven’t said it recently, but that’s because you already know it. You can listen to non-profit radio, live or archives. The archive is on itunes at non-profit radio dot net on twitter you can follow me, use the show’s hashtag non-profit radio and you can also follow me on foursquare we can connect there wishing you good luck the way performers do around the world. We have left estonia, estonia is behind us so from estonia go west across the baltic sea and you land in sweden where they lightly kick performers in the bud before they go onstage. No hands allowed on ly a kick, please and when they’re doing it, they will say, breathe at the bend freak at ben, which means break a bone so i guess sweet don’t have femurs and to be his invidious, so just break any bone in your body is fine. You don’t have to be specific to the leg, so i’m wishing you breed at ben. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. I’m leaving, which is our line. Producer assistant producer janice taylor is sending me text telling me when the time is coming up. Thank you very much, general shows social media’s, by regina walton, of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Oh, i hope you’ll be with me next week. Friday one to two p, m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. I didn’t think that shooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get anything. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on so speaks been radio. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Dahna you’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. 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