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Laurence Pagnoni: Fundraising 401
That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising. That’s Laurence Pagnoni’s latest book. It’s a series of masterclasses for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in nonprofit management and fundraising.
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Transcript for 491_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200529.mp3
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go into Borba Rig mus if you upset my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show. Fundraising for 01 That’s Lawrence Paige non EA’s latest book. It’s a series of master classes for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in non profit management and fundraising. Tony Stick, You planning for reopening were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a real pleasure to welcome back Lawrence Pack tony Teoh non profit radio. He is chairman of Lap A fundraising serving non profits throughout the world, roughly 25 clients at a time. He’s got 35 years in the sector as executive director and fundraising council, his latest book published this year is fundraising for, 01 master classes in non profit fundraising That would make Peter Drucker proud. The company is at lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Welcome lap. If the firm was lapper your lab, right, [00:02:00.79] spk_0:
we tripped upon the acronym years and years ago. We always use the full Lawrence Ape Agnone Associates. And [00:02:07.26] spk_1:
as I remember, [00:02:08.24] spk_0:
one day, we just had written lap on this and that had good alliteration. We should use that. [00:02:18.28] spk_1:
Okay, you went the way of ah, of, um, Triple A and ah, and AARP. You know, they don’t You’re not, You know, Lawrence, tape Agnone Associates anymore. Your lap. That’s right. Okay, it’s the It’s the 21st century now. Alright. [00:02:38.44] spk_0:
But there’s also a mini lesson there for non profits about, uh, branding. Um, trying to get it right at the beginning is important, but good. The difference between good branding and great branding is the width of the Grand Canyon. Um and so I didn’t ever want to venture into rebranding it without great council, which I’ve never been able to afford. [00:03:29.74] spk_1:
So you stumbled on lap and we evolved, you know, you? Yes, it’s proof that the greatness doesn’t come out in the beginning. You can’t plan all the greatness in the beginning. It has to as to organically come about. So it’s been like 6.5 years. You were on the, uh, your for your first book, the non profit fundraising solution. You are on non profit radio on November 8th, 2013. Wow, when that book was new, seven years ago on dhe. Now, your second, um so let’s let’s get into it. Uh, why does, uh, what is management consultant Peter Drucker belong in the title? [00:05:16.64] spk_0:
Ah, Homage to Peter Drucker taught me how to think. Ah, well, I guess the Jesuits would take the first bow for that. But Peter Drucker, Um, I was a Peter Drucker fellow in the 19 nineties here in New York City. And it was Peter who taught me how to integrate fundraising into organizational development. Besides just being a great part human being, he was a brilliant strategist and thinker. He of course, wrote the original bulk on reengineering General Motors, and but he spent the last years of his life focused on the what he called the higher profit sector what we call the nonprofit sector. But he, uh he thought that if there wasn’t a coalescing off the non profit sectors values with the business sector, that society would be deficient for for that not happening. So, um, actually, when I started writing this book, um, I didn’t realize the degree to which drug Harry and thinking had Dominy eat it. My own thinking. And it was about a dozen chapters in that my editor said you use Drucker an awful lot. I said, tell me how many times? And then I was, like, astounded. And, um and then I I added that little no. Oh, my him [00:05:23.14] spk_1:
And And Drucker had the book managing the non profit organization. Yeah. He was committed to the to the sector. To what he got what he called the higher profit. Is that what he called it? The higher profit [00:05:31.64] spk_0:
profit Peter Drucker? [00:05:33.28] spk_1:
There it is. And all right, [00:05:48.29] spk_0:
I’m Crawford organization. It’s been on my desk since 19 91. I think, um, and I read and re read it as I hope you will do my book fund raising for a one coming forward. [00:05:49.64] spk_1:
Yes. Ive replayed your show on the first book three times since 2013. So I have you, tony. It’s a go to for still is for people who asked me, How do I get the next level? I get that question every maybe a couple times a month. Maybe not that often sometimes, but I recommend the book for how to get to the next level. It’s a It’s a very systematic and sensible approach. [00:06:27.36] spk_0:
The, uh, the fundraising, The nonprofit fundraising solution was the pros of fundraising. But fundraising for a one is really the poetry. It’s more the art of fundraising, whereas the other one was the science. [00:06:31.39] spk_1:
Yeah, you say that and you talk about the art and science and one of your chapters. But you talk about growing into answers and moving to a better set of problems with both of which sound artistic talk about that growing into answers and better set of problems. [00:08:00.24] spk_0:
Well, oftentimes, nonprofits What? There, there. Uh, there’s not enough room in scopes of service, you know, you hire a fundraiser to fundraise and you define a scope of service but a really advanced fundraising system. Once it gets going, it has to look carefully at what the owners are saying. What the institutional funders are saying, Ah, what is working in social media and what’s not for one of our large clients connected with Johns Hopkins University? They weren’t able to raise any money online. And he, um, change the way they approached social Media. And within the first year, they had an extra $100,000 from their social media program. Um, so figuring out as you go long, um, more efficient ways and building that creativity in is very important. And, um, um, and defining it too rigidly. Uh uh, shuts that down. [00:09:16.36] spk_1:
I did like a better set of problems. No, you tell an anecdote. You, for some reason aboard, was getting involved in whether to buy a fax machine. Let’s not get into whether board should even be deciding whether by fax you. But, you know, you just went out and bought the damn thing yourself. Now the fax machines, not communicating with our donors back when facts that this was many years ago, not communicating with donors and our funders is not a problem, but so that that was for me, that was okay. Better set of problems Let’s not deal with the damn fax machine. I’ll buy it. And now let’s deal with communications. It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. We received RP PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven from your Pee Pee Pee loan? You need to apply for that. It’s not automatic forgiveness. Get the details from the C P, a firm we trust. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events. Now back to fundraising for 01 [00:10:33.97] spk_0:
But here’s a Here’s a more sophisticated, better set of problems. Let’s say right now you don’t know who you’re monthly donors are or your plan donors are, and you do research to figure out. Maybe a lot of nonprofits don’t know the date of birth of their donors. So let’s say you do research and you integrate just the date of birth into your donor database and you’re able to segment. Um, you know, suddenly you discover, as is the case with one of our clients on, I remember your rule about the difference between active and a passive plan giving program that they discovered they had 750 people over age 65. They were. They were not aware of that until they had their date of birth. And so now they have a better set of problems. They’re able to think about planned giving because they know they have a donor segment. That is ah, that matches that. So that is my definition of organizational growth, too. But a lot of of of us that we have the same problem over and over again, and that is being stuck. And I wrote this book to tease out ways to get unstuck, Um, and to try some new things within your thinking. First and foremost, this is a book about how to think about fundraising, [00:10:45.37] spk_1:
a series of revelations, Syria’s revolution. So So we’ll talk about a bunch of them. You you talk about, uh, fundraising as, ah analogized Teoh. Dating, dating relationships. No, se little about that. [00:13:19.24] spk_0:
Sure. So when two people meet, they have to learn what the other person’s up for. They have to learn their values, their mutual sexual attraction, their ability to work on and solve problems together. Now, absent the mutual sexual attraction, the same applies to getting to know your donors putting your donors first, uh, listening funders. Pushing back a little bit with your funders about what you’re really needs are having conversations that are thoughtful. And, um so, uh, getting to know the the revenue streams that you’re working through is just similar to dating, but without the sexual romantic energy listening, listening is critical and mentioned listening. And if you’re not sympathetic, simpatico if you’re not simpatico, um, like, uh, one donor who Who? I was trying to get a six figure gift from four teenage pregnancy prevention program. I’ve been telling this story for years. So pardoned, if you’ve heard it. But it was such a rich experience for me, you know, right early in the conversation, he said, You know, um, I don’t believe teen age should be having sex, and I just let the silence sit there. Of course, inside myself, I’m thinking, you know, e, I just lost the gift, but I just listened Ah, in a posture of tell me more. And then he said, I think honest peak, tony must two minutes must have passed. I really was starting to sweat a little bit, and then he said, but I that not chewy. And, uh, and the clients you serve need the kind of program that your agency is recommending. So let’s talk about how that would work. And so he was up for it, But he was starting from a place of his own, you know, position, but showing flexibility about thinking. So he was up for the dating relationship? [00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Well, well, what may be the one night stand, but that you have that you have that story in the book. And he gay ended up giving $25,000 right? Because you were a good listener. So maybe that was a one time gift. So now, [00:13:39.73] spk_0:
no, no, he gave for three years. [00:13:53.54] spk_1:
I did. All right, All right. So it was a short term relationship. All right. All right. Um, our product, our product is impact. What’s that about? [00:15:07.06] spk_0:
Well, too many people confuse that they’re giving to your non profit. You know, the bread for the world or partners and Hells or whatever the name of the non profit is, donors don’t give to your non profit. They give for the mission and the impact. And you have to be clear about, you know, with your gift will be ableto have more of an impact. Here’s the impact we’ve had. Here’s the aspirational impact that we’re looking for. Um, Bill, Sure, from share Our strength has been a real role model in the nonprofit sector. Ah, for talking about the rial overhead costs that we should be advocating before to really get the job done, He asked the provocative question, Um, if would you be satisfied if my overhead were 5%? But I didn’t feed All the hungry people came to me. Nurses. If it was 35% and I did feed them all, which would you prefer? And, ah, that that is a good question. And you could each agency could have their version of that, um, to talk about aspirational goals and, um, and and if because if you don’t define them, no one in no one else’s [00:15:33.44] spk_1:
and you talk about the importance of measuring impact. Yeah, knowing what your return on investment is your r a y ah nde communicating, sharing that it’s it’s critical. [00:17:02.98] spk_0:
Yes. So having not just an evaluation program that complies with the funders requirements as so many government contracts do, but having a new evaluation program that helps the staff make management decisions about what programs are working and what are not. When I was the non profit CEO of Harlem United for six years, our data showed us that are substance abuse case management program did okay, but what really kept people in sobriety was our pastoral counseling and pastoral care program. Because the clients it was it was nondenominational. It was a healing experience. And it had twice the amount of ah, of sobriety retention as our substance abuse counseling program did. If we hadn’t been looking at the data, we wouldn’t have known that. And so we took that news to religious oriented funders and hired three more pastoral counsellors and built a partnership with Hospital Chaplaincy Inc. Who trains pastoral counsellors. And, um, we have had, uh, we had a strong spike in sobriety amongst our clients. It was really quite beautiful. And it’s lasted for years, [00:17:36.69] spk_1:
all from understanding what your data is revealing what your true impact is. Yeah. All right. You you mentioned staff were jumping around a little bit, but you you highlight that Ah used to think that clients should come first. But now you feel its staff should come first. Retention strategies, professional development. I don’t know if you mentioned mentoring, but that always comes up, you know, talk about investments and investments that are that need to be made in staff. And why you think staff is number one now, [00:20:24.54] spk_0:
boy, if I come a long way as a as an advocate for the poor from being a teenager, Um, when I worked in a volunteer in a soup kitchen myself, thanks to my good old Teamster union dad, um, I never wavered from clients first, and, uh, but, um, it’s not that I’m saying clients take a back seat. I’m saying that if we make staff, primary clients will be better served ma staff retention that nonprofits is alarming. And worse yet, Ah, younger generations, um, leave the sector faster than our generation. Those of us in our fifties, they leave the sector faster. Um, because they have a bad experience with a board or the the poor. Compensation is not livable for their family. So but it’s not just about the conditions of employment. It’s also about is the non profit a learning environment A learning organization here at lap of fundraising we have just 1/2 a dozen shared values within our firm and professional development and advancement is, um is one of them, and we pay every year, every staff person has a professional development plan, right, and we pay for it. And, um, we’re happy to do it. Um, because people are staff will tell you. You know, we aspire whether we succeed at it completely, I don’t have to ask them, but we aspire to be a learning organization, not just learning on our accounts, but learning from best practices in the field and colleagues we bring colleagues in, um, we’re big into what’s called the any a gram in our workplace. It’s a it’s ah, it’s an emotional intelligence system for the workplace that that helps people understand how there are clients are viewing the world how they’re built. The India graham dot Any a gram institute dot or ge. I believe, um, would introduce you to it has some videos there, [00:21:00.94] spk_1:
so we need to overcome Leave behind this idea that professional development technology to support staff. You know that these air luxuries, you know, we’re way cut. Being a couple of operating systems behind is okay, because it’s more important that we spend our money on the people or the programs. You know, that’s that’s that’s outdated, thinking you and what we’re seeing in terms of younger folks leaving the sector is bearing out that bearing out out. That’s evidence that we’re not providing what they’re looking for. So they try one or two jobs and then they leave. That’s that’s not talk about not sustainable. [00:21:26.64] spk_0:
I could just hear some of your audience members saying asked Lawrence to tell me where to find money for technology improvements or, UM, or professional development. [00:21:28.69] spk_1:
All right, well, good. You’re channeling the audience like Ideo. Ask the other. Answer them. [00:23:19.64] spk_0:
It’s hard. Um, I know what what we do is we build it into our overhead rate and where we can we try to get so many nonprofits have such a low overhead rate, and that’s again back with Bill Shore was talking about, um, some government contracts actually curb you at 10% and most nonprofits haven’t overhead rate at least a 23 24% and arguably it should be probably close to the 35. I think all the major universities are somewhere north of 50% overhead. So trying to get it into your overhead and then, of course, looking form or general operating support by identifying donor advised funds, which, by definition, as you know tony, are hidden. There are profiles you could use to assume that somebody probably has a donor advised fund. We do that nor prospect research. And then, of course, we asked directly when we’re talking to them or serving them. So people who have donor advised funds are very friendly to, you know, odd costs or what? You know what the As contrast that to institutional funders where you get a grant for your program. Sometimes in those grants you can add a computer. You can say we need, you know, 40 hours of professional development. So integrating it into all your fund raising on into your overhead rate has worked with many of our clients. Um And then, of course, there’s rare occasions when on our f p is issued where you can ask for things like that. [00:23:31.02] spk_1:
Uh huh. You doesn’t work with sterile needle exchange. Just talk about that a little bit. That sounds like a good story. [00:24:36.14] spk_0:
Yeah, Harm reduction. Um, again, a better set of problems. Um, it’s better toe. Have needle. Ah, needle users use clean needles, then toe Have them keep using dirty needles because it reduces the spread off HIV and STDs. Ah, and blood born infections. Um, so that’s a better harm. Reduction is a better set of problems with science behind it. And, um, this is true not just in the United States, but in, uh, all throughout the world and European countries who have harm reduction policies. Harm reduction is still needed. It it’s kind of fallen out of fashion. There’s just a handful, maybe two or three funders who are interested in it. The drug policy alliance is still interested in it. And the Komer Foundation, if if they’re still around, [00:24:40.50] spk_1:
what was What was your work in harm reduction? [00:25:29.42] spk_0:
Uh, well, I had, uh, helped, um, the New York harm reduction Educators in the Bronx form a hotline so that people could reach them, and, uh, we went to check cashing stores. Um, where the poor, The poor in the Bronx generally don’t use a bank. They pay to have their check cashed, which is a scandal unto itself, but its exorbitant if we would expand the United States Postal Service is toe what it was in the 19 fifties. They they wouldn’t have have that. There’s a direct link between the reduction of the role of the U. S Postal Service in its role with money orders and check cashing and the the upswing of these four profit sleazy check cashing. [00:25:38.50] spk_1:
Interesting. All right, we’re [00:26:04.35] spk_0:
but any way went to the check cashing places. And yes, we paid them. We had to pay them when they cashed the cheque to put our business card for the the New York Harm Reduction Educators with 1 800 number on And we saw, on average, 800 new enrollees into the non profit to get access to HIV prevention and treatment service is [00:27:17.24] spk_1:
I did. I did work in Philadelphia when I was in law school with an organization called Prevention Point, Philadelphia. It was it was a grassroots, sterile needle exchange. Excuse me. They were going toe parks in areas where they knew drug activity was high on weekends and literally distributing marked sterile needles marked so that they knew when they got their own back so they could had some. They had a measure of effectiveness. How many sterile needles were coming back and how maney unmarked needles So dirty needles they were getting off the streets, and that was incredibly rewarding. It was an internship, but just to see the the father’s walk up or drive up with a young child in tow and, you know, taking 1/2 a dozen needles and giving us 1/2 a dozen. Uh, but I know the statistics are there that it reduces on. This was 1989 1990. Uh, no. HIV was much more dangerous than it is now. [00:28:41.54] spk_0:
And he’s here. You see in art in the conversation right now between tony and I, how a fund raiser discovers his or her product to sell. This is what fundraisers do at the highest level. We listen to the caseworkers to the clients, to the statistics to the the best practice studies, for example, with a affordable housing program that I’m starting to work within Orlando, Florida The executive director was blown away because the first thing we were starting to do is we’ve read 10 years worth of completely boring but totally relevant thinking from the Orlando Housing Authority about their needs assessments. They do them, they’re required to do them every 10 years. And those documents are chock full with with really good data. Um, I mean, that’s something to be a proud of in our country is we still have some semblance of these local civic governments that are doing their due diligence about community need. Um, but this is how fundraisers then get a very powerful case for support develop. Um, and uh huh. That’s why there’s a chapter about impact and the the the product is your program, and it’s a [00:30:33.04] spk_1:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two reopening from Corona virus. That’s the special episode with Lisa Brauner. I just want to make sure that you heard it. It’s very good, very relevant, and I don’t want you to miss it if, uh, if you’re just sampling the show. Perhaps those were listening to every show, of course. All three of you, Cheryl, Rick and my dad. I’m just kidding about that. My dad doesn’t even know what a podcast is. So for Cheryl and Rick, I know that you are covered, but everybody else, Lisa is very smart. It’s a valuable show. We talk about dozens of issues for you to consider. As you plan to reopen your office reopening from Corona virus, you’ll find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Oh, and please, please keep taking care of yourself. Do it each day. You need it. You deserve it. Please do it. That is tony. Stick to now back to Lawrence Paige. Tony Panyu. Tony. He’s chairman of lap of fundraising. We’re talking about his book fundraising for 01 You talk about the donor as hero? What, uh, what are you thinking there? [00:30:36.04] spk_0:
Well, uh, [00:30:37.68] spk_1:
all right. Share your thinking. I know what you’re thinking cause I read your I read your book. So listen, you just got to get the book. If you want to flush out the full thunk thinking Sure. The launch will introduce you to his thinking as donors as heroes, [00:32:16.34] spk_0:
so many appeal letters or annual reports or newsletter. They make the client the hero. There’s there’s wisdom to that. They make the organization itself the hero. But in fund raising, the donor is the hero. And I grew up in a non profit sector that ignored that the ascent ignored the donor. The essential message to the donor for most of my life has been give and shut up. Um, but today’s donor wants to be heard. They want to be acknowledged. They will give MME. Or they will become more involved. It was Terry Axelrod, the founder of the Bena von model of fundraising that started to give me a hint that donors wanted to be engaged, and then the data bore that out. Um, I’ve started to take on clients who would tell me, Oh, we could never ask. Are our volunteers for money? I haven’t heard that question in the past five years or so. Ah, better set of problems, I think. I think people are more convinced that they realize their donors want to give and hello out there. If you think your dough. If you still think your donors, your volunteers going to No. Well, please evaluate that. Read my book and evaluate that because your volunteers want to give [00:33:07.07] spk_1:
you, uh, one little quote, you say as your writing. You know, as you’re writing to your donors, um, tell the story as if the donor were sitting before you over a cup of coffee. Uh, you suggest you see their smile, speak their name? Um, you make it up, make it a conversation. You know, this idea of stilted language? Uh, you have to fill in 8.5 by 11 page sheet of paper. Maybe. Sometimes you do. But if you don’t need to, then don’t. Um, handwriting, handwriting and written solicitations could be probably more sincere than something you produce on word and feel constrained, compelled to Philip age around. So no, get close and talk to people like like you would like to be talked to. [00:33:25.56] spk_0:
I learned from Tom Ahern about some of the nuances about making the donor the hero, and it actually influenced my book cover. You could see you know, [00:33:26.88] spk_1:
Darcis holding listening marches, holding up his book cover. Okay, [00:34:17.64] spk_0:
going below, there’s a hook with a dollar sign going below the surface of the water Because the point is to rid to raise the big money you have, Teoh, think more deeply about fundraising and what’s motivating the donor. Um, but we start making the case right on the cover of a newsletter or a case for support. We recently did a case for support for an animal welfare agency where we put a picture of the Cubist cat on one case and the cute his dog on the other with their owners who had just adopted them holding them. But right underneath that we put the question, How can we ever say no? So we’re we’re saying to the donor, [00:34:20.74] spk_1:
it wasn’t How can you How can you say no if you [00:34:23.95] spk_0:
ever say no? [00:34:24.74] spk_1:
Yeah, right. How can you say you ever seen get the you? You gotta get you with yours in there. [00:34:28.90] spk_0:
That you in there? [00:34:43.14] spk_1:
Okay, so I read the book you missed. You blew the Holt. Whole Point is, you gotta have the u in there. Not how can we get You are sorry. Um um [00:34:44.44] spk_0:
you your it’s all about you. [00:35:24.47] spk_1:
Yes, using yours. I know. Tom Ahern stresses that he even has a calculator on the Web somewhere. It might be a hearn dot com or something where you can put your text in and it’ll evaluate how many years you have versus how many wees or something like that, right? But I’m constantly I’m constantly rewriting, you know, the can we change the to you, the donor, Your you, your donors? I mean, as I am writing to clients instead of the donors, your donors, you’re talking now to the second person instead of the abstract third person, the donor that could be anybody’s donors. No, we’re talking about your donors, your donor. That’s just not not in the abstract. I think it bring. It makes it more concrete than using the site. That second person. [00:35:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and it also it’s It’s not just a linguistic shift. There’s research science behind it. Psychology, science, psychological sciences behind it that the donors feel like Oh, he really is talking about me and and so we raise more money with that approach. [00:35:54.39] spk_1:
By the way, did I did I mispronounce your name when I introduced you? [00:35:59.14] spk_0:
I know. You [00:36:00.34] spk_1:
know I didn’t I had hoped that I had met mispronounced your name because I had hoped that by now 6.5 years later you had changed the pronunciation of Panyu. Tony, why are you still defacing your beautiful Italian names with [00:36:14.79] spk_0:
parents? It’s worse than that. The whole name on the bastard bastard birth certificate is Lorenzo Antonio Paige non. Tony? [00:36:22.66] spk_1:
Yes, Panyu tony, why are you started [00:36:25.28] spk_0:
the opera? You know [00:36:26.63] spk_1:
I know you. You are in 2013. You mentioned your [00:36:33.25] spk_0:
grandmother. Grandmothers? Uh uh. She loved the operating that she tell me that old time your name’s a little opera. [00:37:18.63] spk_1:
I would rather you take the g out to make it pan, tony, or it switches to panini or something. Please. But you’re you’re killing the beautiful pronunciation. Panya non. I’ll try, tony. I promise to try. All right, it’s worth It’s worth the investment. It’s worth the investment in changing the pronunciation, not dispelling just a pronunciation. People will still be able to find you on the web. All right, um, you said you say all donors are major donors and following from that all gifts of major gifts. What? What? What is that to me? We know we’re stratify ing. We have our modest donors because we’re too afraid to call them small donors that we say their modest And then we have our mid level and major and then, you know, may be ultra. But you say all old owners are major donors. [00:39:54.42] spk_0:
Yes, because nobody has to give a dime to you. Nobody has to give their hard earned money to you. Nobody has to on because of that, they all should be treated in a major way. Now, of course, in the systems of fundraising, we might have automation in place. Hope thoughtful automation for donors who are, you know, from $1 to say, $5000 for major donors or transformational donors at the higher levels. You know, we have a more personal touch. It’s expensive. Major gift officers who know what they’re doing are have come at a higher salary because their skills are honed over years and they know how to deeply listen and use the data to ask for transformational gifts, multiyear gifts, legacy gifts. Um, but, um but but I’m trying to convey that we shouldn’t take any dollar, no matter the size amount for granted that that they don’t have to give and people are giving, you know Jesus pointed out in Scripture. The widow’s mite was greater than the Faris ease giving because she gave from her heart and she gave from her want. And, um so I had to learn again. Just like with professional development. I had a learned this the hard way. My development I belly eight about donor giving less than I thought he he could have My development director quietly closed the door, sat down with that white flustered look on his face like Lawrence. Jesus, Mother God, you know, what am I gonna do with you? You’re supposed to be our leader. And he said to me lardons every gift is a major one and he didn’t have to give that gift. And that’s a real story. And I went silent and I thought about it. And I thought, You know, that’s That’s damn true. Yeah, eventually, that donor, because of the way my development director treated him so kingly. He did give at much higher levels later on. But nobody has to give us a dime. [00:40:19.62] spk_1:
Generous would be proud of you. Still still quoting, still quoting scripture that influence that’s with you forever, I’m sure. Yeah. Uh, something else you. You, ah, seems provocative. That you devote a chapter to is, uh, revenue diversification. You you tell us it’s overrated. Flush that out. Would you? [00:41:37.61] spk_0:
For smaller organizations, divert revenue diversification is really essential. I’m not naive about that, but it’s expensive to do well. Um, most smaller organizations barely have. Well, the profile most organizations is that they don’t even have a development office state. They have the program director and the executive director rights to grants or, um, manages the gala. They might bring in a gala event consultant, but, um, when when Stanford University did a study of think it was 130 major nonprofits who had gotten over $50 million annual revenues, they discovered that diversification of revenue went down. And that study was a seminal piece of research that changed our thinking about diversification. So as a non profit grows to a better set of problems, um, its revenue should stream should become deeper, not wider, and a [00:41:38.56] spk_1:
few 1,000,000,000. What’s deeper in what’s most successful, [00:43:00.34] spk_0:
that’s right and most lucrative. For example, Habitat for Humanity. They started with, um in kind donations as there biggest source of revenue that the stuff that they needed for the houses that they were building good stuff, not just, you know, poor quality stuff. But then they realized that the people who donated that stuff were willing to donate. And so they started an individual donor program that eventually grew as they did. Don’t a research to major major gift program, and they went deeper and deeper into that source of revenue individual giving they before monthly giving. They formed eventually on line giving. They formed legacy societies. So within each revenue stream, you can create enormous depth. And, ah, instead of expanding outside, could habitat taken government money is probably some of them eventually did in localities that where the local government said, Hey, we wanna help because this is part of our community development, a program. And so they got some [00:43:46.04] spk_1:
time for our last break turned to communications. They’re former journalists, so you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. Plus, you want toe prepare, you got a plan to build media relationships. When all this noise subsides, there is a future after this. They know exactly what to do for you. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for fundraising for 01 This is also an example of where you need to invest in staff. You know, if you want. If you want to go deeper in the in the channel, the fundraising method that’s that’s most lucrative for you. You’re gonna have to do it with a professional who’s got an experience, got experience in that in that channel and maybe others as well. But it can’t continually be the executive director trying to deep in fundraising in the most look from the most lucrative source and manage the organization. Oversee the programs in short compliance. I mean, this is where you have to invest. If you want to be among those few charities that gets to the whatever 50 or $55 million level. You know it’s doable, but you need to invest in growth. [00:44:58.44] spk_0:
When I last talked to you in 2013 our firm talked a good game about Prospect Research Service is, and we did. We did deliver some service is, but we got honest with ourselves that we had to invest. Seven years later, we have you know, a six person T and we do Don’t a research. Now we find I mean, we found 108,000 new donors. Value aligned donors for Lutheran Social Service is we found 8000 new donors for the food bank in New Jersey. Um, we found ah, 42 new board member candidates for ST Christopher’s Inn and Garrison, New York. [00:45:15.86] spk_1:
I mean, our donor from in investing in Prospect Research. [00:45:24.09] spk_0:
Yeah, and and also the field itself has matured and developed. And it’s not just about the data. It’s about using how to use the data off when you marry the data of vendors with a trained fundraiser. That’s where you have the alchemy [00:45:37.49] spk_1:
and you have a whole. You have a chapter devoted to not underfunding advancement, development. It’s called development for a reason. You make the point. It needs to grow, and if you’re gonna grow it, you got to invest in it. So don’t under fund your development. Ah, [00:46:02.77] spk_0:
and by the way, I just gave you the tip for my the book. The next book, How to Find New Donors, which will be out sometime in 2021. [00:46:04.50] spk_1:
You’re doing a prospect research book. [00:46:29.78] spk_0:
Yeah. Uh, interesting. You call it that? I’m not sure. It’s funny. Um, I I’m professionally, I’m a fundraiser. I’m not a prospect researcher. Yeah, I use the tools. I know it in good prospect researchers. Obviously, we have them here at the firm E. And I know I’m not one of them, but I’m a fund raiser who uses the data So that put the books about. It’s a nuance, maybe a distinction without a difference. But But there are very wonky. Very good prospect research books out there that I couldn’t possibly Right. [00:46:54.18] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. But, um, I still have some other things I want to cover with you. We got, like, another 10 minutes or so left, but, uh, let me throw to you. What do you want to talk about from the book? [00:47:08.48] spk_0:
Well, right off, I’d like Teoh, uh, invite the reader to to actually read it. I talked to a lot of fund raisers, and I’m not [00:47:16.38] spk_1:
convinced. Sounds like that. I think that’s sound advice for a book. Ah, Book author? Yeah. Assumed my book, for God’s sake. [00:47:26.48] spk_0:
Well, I actually learned this from a terrific fundraiser. Who headed up the Heyman Institute, Um, at New York University. Ah, Naomi Levine. [00:47:32.24] spk_1:
Had I had her on the show years ago? Yes, I [00:48:20.87] spk_0:
remember. Naomi, you know, kicked my butt around. Lawrence, you know, you have to read not just in our field, extensively. But you have to read in the field of economics in the field of sociology in the field of of, ah, science because the donors are expert in those fields. I remember going into a meeting with an engineer on a plan gift. And, um, he mentioned something that I had read because of Naomi suggestion about the field of of environmental engineering. And I said to him, You know, I know enough to be dangerous, but are you talking about, you know, corrosive engineering protection and his I split up? How the hell did you know that? [00:48:24.77] spk_1:
You learned those words and friends. Corrosive engineering protection. And [00:49:05.17] spk_0:
there’s affinity on this is our job. Is fundraising whites or amazing field? You? Never, if you’re bored, is a fundraiser. Holy cow. Your read my book and find out. You know, a way to become a non board. But my point, tony, is that so many fundraisers. Our stayed there. Kind of. They know what they know. Um, I could tell you at this time in my life more about what I don’t know about fund raising that then what I know about it and why I surround myself with good thinkers myself. And I’ve been told that this book and this is my second point is both helpful for somebody advanced in fundraising like yourself. And it’s also helpful for people who are new or mid career that it’s a very approachable book. Primarily because I tell stories that are based in reality. And I then give the more advanced theory behind it. [00:49:32.27] spk_1:
Yeah, So I grab it. Is it is it You [00:49:34.44] spk_0:
found that to be the case? [00:49:46.87] spk_1:
It is approachable. Yeah. Um, it’s my turn again now. So you you have advice for ah CEO? Um, decision making and also CEO as fundraiser. So I want to put those two together and and explore what? What? Decisions about fundraising are appropriate at the CEO level. [00:51:16.76] spk_0:
So, uh, knowing the plan and understanding the plan of how to move to a better set of problems, do you have the same fund raising dilemma year in and year out. That’s the CEO’s job to kick the boards, but and the the development teams. But ah ah, because so many fundraising programmes have the same problem year in and year out. That means it’s stuck and, um, and that’s primarily on the shoulders of the CEO. Uh, the underfunding of the development team that’s on the shoulders of the CEO. The CEO has to find the revenue to fund the capacity to pay for developed. Um, and I offer many on my blawg at lap of fundraising dot com. I offer you know, thousands of suggestions about how toe pay for fundraising, and, um so there’s two examples Ah, third example I’d give of the CEOs job and fundraising. Is it? They have to, um, boxed the ears or guide the boards in [00:51:18.74] spk_1:
the stage box. Just 60 years, Yeah, box that years of war guide, okay [00:51:24.20] spk_0:
or guide? That’s they would guide [00:51:26.18] spk_1:
whose chooser is somewhere in that spectrum. [00:51:59.21] spk_0:
Somewhere that spectrum. They have to guide the board’s way to think about fund raising because boards who know nothing about fundraising are sitting there in judgment of professional fund raisers who have you know, 25 years of experience. There’s, They wouldn’t do that to the program director. Some of them do. But that’s another set of problems. They wouldn’t. They generally don’t do it to their attorneys. They wouldn’t. They certainly don’t do it to their auditors. They feel free to do it to their fundraisers, [00:52:07.34] spk_1:
things they would never do in their own business. They do, uh, routinely some boards, you know, to the CEO and the program staff of the board. Who’s the non profit, whose boards they said on. And you talk about a heavy lifting board gotta have a heavy lifting board. [00:53:18.95] spk_0:
Yes, governance is a thing. Governance is not for every volunteer. Its governance is not just for, um, the person who likes your mission or whose son or daughter benefited from from your mission. Governance is a business proposition that the nonprofit sector has designed, Um, and it has roles and responsibilities for not just fugitive fiduciary roles, but for long range planning. It’s the job of the executive team to think about the next three years, but it’s the job of the board to think about the next 5 to 10 years. Yeah, and most boards never really think about the long term plan now, you know, planning in this day and age is is it is it anachronistic? I don’t think it is but a little bit old fashioned, but I think plans should be nimble and changed. But you should still have, Ah, a long range plan about what you want to look like in 5 to 10 years. [00:54:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, that heavy lifting board and in terms of fundraising as well. And you make the point that campaigns could be a very good I very good vehicle for, ah recycling board or replacing board members that aren’t that aren’t heavy lifting. Maybe there’s an advisory council they can go on or some kind of America’s status so that they’re not embarrassed but still age. But But they’re not. But they’re not a fiduciary any longer. With those obligations and eso right, we have just like a minute or so left. Uh, leave us. Leave us with something, but do it concisely, please. [00:55:46.67] spk_0:
Oh, we’re in the middle of as you and I record this were in the middle of the cove in 19 Pandemic. The nonprofits that are raising more money through this pandemic are the ones with a deep culture of philanthropy and that culture philanthropy is defined by resiliency. Resilience. Um, if you’re serious about the next pandemic or about your own viability in the future, the 23 chapters of this book well, deep in your culture of philanthropy so that you’re more prepared for the future. If you’re assessing yourself right now as that you were not ready for this pandemic, do not beat yourself up. But take it as a wake up call to start getting ready for the economic crisis that we’re going to be living through for the next couple of years, and for the very much needed reform of our health care system, so that the poor and uh, communities of color are better served than what we’re seeing in Cove in 19. And so that’s a real reason to read this right now. Tony, You and I have lived through many crisis is, and Cove in 19 certainly has its own characteristics that are unique. But, um, there are always crisis is that we face, and we have to be more resilient with a deeper culture of philanthropy, and fundraising for a one will help you get there. [00:55:59.84] spk_1:
That’s the book fundraising for a one master classes in non profit fundraising that would make Peter Drucker proud. He’s Lawrence Ape Agnone lap. [00:56:02.63] spk_0:
The [00:56:02.74] spk_1:
company is labra lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Lawrence. Thank you very, very much. My pleasure. [00:56:10.00] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you [00:57:29.30] spk_1:
for sharing. Okay. Next week, more 20 and TC panel interview Greatness. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo creative producer is Clear My wrath. Sam Liebowitz Managed stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our guy. This music is by Scott’s time with me next week for not profit radio, big non profit ideas. 14 of their 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.
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Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go into Borba Rig mus if you upset my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show. Fundraising for 01 That’s Lawrence Paige non EA’s latest book. It’s a series of master classes for all levels and a collection of revelations he’s gained over 35 years in non profit management and fundraising. Tony Stick, You planning for reopening were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Cougar Math and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a real pleasure to welcome back Lawrence Pack tony Teoh non profit radio. He is chairman of Lap A fundraising serving non profits throughout the world, roughly 25 clients at a time. He’s got 35 years in the sector as executive director and fundraising council, his latest book published this year is fundraising for, 01 master classes in non profit fundraising That would make Peter Drucker proud. The company is at lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Welcome lap. If the firm was lapper your lab, right, [00:02:00.79] spk_0:
we tripped upon the acronym years and years ago. We always use the full Lawrence Ape Agnone Associates. And [00:02:07.26] spk_1:
as I remember, [00:02:08.24] spk_0:
one day, we just had written lap on this and that had good alliteration. We should use that. [00:02:18.28] spk_1:
Okay, you went the way of ah, of, um, Triple A and ah, and AARP. You know, they don’t You’re not, You know, Lawrence, tape Agnone Associates anymore. Your lap. That’s right. Okay, it’s the It’s the 21st century now. Alright. [00:02:38.44] spk_0:
But there’s also a mini lesson there for non profits about, uh, branding. Um, trying to get it right at the beginning is important, but good. The difference between good branding and great branding is the width of the Grand Canyon. Um and so I didn’t ever want to venture into rebranding it without great council, which I’ve never been able to afford. [00:03:29.74] spk_1:
So you stumbled on lap and we evolved, you know, you? Yes, it’s proof that the greatness doesn’t come out in the beginning. You can’t plan all the greatness in the beginning. It has to as to organically come about. So it’s been like 6.5 years. You were on the, uh, your for your first book, the non profit fundraising solution. You are on non profit radio on November 8th, 2013. Wow, when that book was new, seven years ago on dhe. Now, your second, um so let’s let’s get into it. Uh, why does, uh, what is management consultant Peter Drucker belong in the title? [00:05:16.64] spk_0:
Ah, Homage to Peter Drucker taught me how to think. Ah, well, I guess the Jesuits would take the first bow for that. But Peter Drucker, Um, I was a Peter Drucker fellow in the 19 nineties here in New York City. And it was Peter who taught me how to integrate fundraising into organizational development. Besides just being a great part human being, he was a brilliant strategist and thinker. He of course, wrote the original bulk on reengineering General Motors, and but he spent the last years of his life focused on the what he called the higher profit sector what we call the nonprofit sector. But he, uh he thought that if there wasn’t a coalescing off the non profit sectors values with the business sector, that society would be deficient for for that not happening. So, um, actually, when I started writing this book, um, I didn’t realize the degree to which drug Harry and thinking had Dominy eat it. My own thinking. And it was about a dozen chapters in that my editor said you use Drucker an awful lot. I said, tell me how many times? And then I was, like, astounded. And, um and then I I added that little no. Oh, my him [00:05:23.14] spk_1:
And And Drucker had the book managing the non profit organization. Yeah. He was committed to the to the sector. To what he got what he called the higher profit. Is that what he called it? The higher profit [00:05:31.64] spk_0:
profit Peter Drucker? [00:05:33.28] spk_1:
There it is. And all right, [00:05:48.29] spk_0:
I’m Crawford organization. It’s been on my desk since 19 91. I think, um, and I read and re read it as I hope you will do my book fund raising for a one coming forward. [00:05:49.64] spk_1:
Yes. Ive replayed your show on the first book three times since 2013. So I have you, tony. It’s a go to for still is for people who asked me, How do I get the next level? I get that question every maybe a couple times a month. Maybe not that often sometimes, but I recommend the book for how to get to the next level. It’s a It’s a very systematic and sensible approach. [00:06:27.36] spk_0:
The, uh, the fundraising, The nonprofit fundraising solution was the pros of fundraising. But fundraising for a one is really the poetry. It’s more the art of fundraising, whereas the other one was the science. [00:06:31.39] spk_1:
Yeah, you say that and you talk about the art and science and one of your chapters. But you talk about growing into answers and moving to a better set of problems with both of which sound artistic talk about that growing into answers and better set of problems. [00:08:00.24] spk_0:
Well, oftentimes, nonprofits What? There, there. Uh, there’s not enough room in scopes of service, you know, you hire a fundraiser to fundraise and you define a scope of service but a really advanced fundraising system. Once it gets going, it has to look carefully at what the owners are saying. What the institutional funders are saying, Ah, what is working in social media and what’s not for one of our large clients connected with Johns Hopkins University? They weren’t able to raise any money online. And he, um, change the way they approached social Media. And within the first year, they had an extra $100,000 from their social media program. Um, so figuring out as you go long, um, more efficient ways and building that creativity in is very important. And, um, um, and defining it too rigidly. Uh uh, shuts that down. [00:09:16.36] spk_1:
I did like a better set of problems. No, you tell an anecdote. You, for some reason aboard, was getting involved in whether to buy a fax machine. Let’s not get into whether board should even be deciding whether by fax you. But, you know, you just went out and bought the damn thing yourself. Now the fax machines, not communicating with our donors back when facts that this was many years ago, not communicating with donors and our funders is not a problem, but so that that was for me, that was okay. Better set of problems Let’s not deal with the damn fax machine. I’ll buy it. And now let’s deal with communications. It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As. We received RP PP funding. Now what? That’s their latest recorded webinar. What about loan forgiveness? How do you get the max forgiven from your Pee Pee Pee loan? You need to apply for that. It’s not automatic forgiveness. Get the details from the C P, a firm we trust. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events. Now back to fundraising for 01 [00:10:33.97] spk_0:
But here’s a Here’s a more sophisticated, better set of problems. Let’s say right now you don’t know who you’re monthly donors are or your plan donors are, and you do research to figure out. Maybe a lot of nonprofits don’t know the date of birth of their donors. So let’s say you do research and you integrate just the date of birth into your donor database and you’re able to segment. Um, you know, suddenly you discover, as is the case with one of our clients on, I remember your rule about the difference between active and a passive plan giving program that they discovered they had 750 people over age 65. They were. They were not aware of that until they had their date of birth. And so now they have a better set of problems. They’re able to think about planned giving because they know they have a donor segment. That is ah, that matches that. So that is my definition of organizational growth, too. But a lot of of of us that we have the same problem over and over again, and that is being stuck. And I wrote this book to tease out ways to get unstuck, Um, and to try some new things within your thinking. First and foremost, this is a book about how to think about fundraising, [00:10:45.37] spk_1:
a series of revelations, Syria’s revolution. So So we’ll talk about a bunch of them. You you talk about, uh, fundraising as, ah analogized Teoh. Dating, dating relationships. No, se little about that. [00:13:19.24] spk_0:
Sure. So when two people meet, they have to learn what the other person’s up for. They have to learn their values, their mutual sexual attraction, their ability to work on and solve problems together. Now, absent the mutual sexual attraction, the same applies to getting to know your donors putting your donors first, uh, listening funders. Pushing back a little bit with your funders about what you’re really needs are having conversations that are thoughtful. And, um so, uh, getting to know the the revenue streams that you’re working through is just similar to dating, but without the sexual romantic energy listening, listening is critical and mentioned listening. And if you’re not sympathetic, simpatico if you’re not simpatico, um, like, uh, one donor who Who? I was trying to get a six figure gift from four teenage pregnancy prevention program. I’ve been telling this story for years. So pardoned, if you’ve heard it. But it was such a rich experience for me, you know, right early in the conversation, he said, You know, um, I don’t believe teen age should be having sex, and I just let the silence sit there. Of course, inside myself, I’m thinking, you know, e, I just lost the gift, but I just listened Ah, in a posture of tell me more. And then he said, I think honest peak, tony must two minutes must have passed. I really was starting to sweat a little bit, and then he said, but I that not chewy. And, uh, and the clients you serve need the kind of program that your agency is recommending. So let’s talk about how that would work. And so he was up for it, But he was starting from a place of his own, you know, position, but showing flexibility about thinking. So he was up for the dating relationship? [00:13:26.44] spk_1:
Well, well, what may be the one night stand, but that you have that you have that story in the book. And he gay ended up giving $25,000 right? Because you were a good listener. So maybe that was a one time gift. So now, [00:13:39.73] spk_0:
no, no, he gave for three years. [00:13:53.54] spk_1:
I did. All right, All right. So it was a short term relationship. All right. All right. Um, our product, our product is impact. What’s that about? [00:15:07.06] spk_0:
Well, too many people confuse that they’re giving to your non profit. You know, the bread for the world or partners and Hells or whatever the name of the non profit is, donors don’t give to your non profit. They give for the mission and the impact. And you have to be clear about, you know, with your gift will be ableto have more of an impact. Here’s the impact we’ve had. Here’s the aspirational impact that we’re looking for. Um, Bill, Sure, from share Our strength has been a real role model in the nonprofit sector. Ah, for talking about the rial overhead costs that we should be advocating before to really get the job done, He asked the provocative question, Um, if would you be satisfied if my overhead were 5%? But I didn’t feed All the hungry people came to me. Nurses. If it was 35% and I did feed them all, which would you prefer? And, ah, that that is a good question. And you could each agency could have their version of that, um, to talk about aspirational goals and, um, and and if because if you don’t define them, no one in no one else’s [00:15:33.44] spk_1:
and you talk about the importance of measuring impact. Yeah, knowing what your return on investment is your r a y ah nde communicating, sharing that it’s it’s critical. [00:17:02.98] spk_0:
Yes. So having not just an evaluation program that complies with the funders requirements as so many government contracts do, but having a new evaluation program that helps the staff make management decisions about what programs are working and what are not. When I was the non profit CEO of Harlem United for six years, our data showed us that are substance abuse case management program did okay, but what really kept people in sobriety was our pastoral counseling and pastoral care program. Because the clients it was it was nondenominational. It was a healing experience. And it had twice the amount of ah, of sobriety retention as our substance abuse counseling program did. If we hadn’t been looking at the data, we wouldn’t have known that. And so we took that news to religious oriented funders and hired three more pastoral counsellors and built a partnership with Hospital Chaplaincy Inc. Who trains pastoral counsellors. And, um, we have had, uh, we had a strong spike in sobriety amongst our clients. It was really quite beautiful. And it’s lasted for years, [00:17:36.69] spk_1:
all from understanding what your data is revealing what your true impact is. Yeah. All right. You you mentioned staff were jumping around a little bit, but you you highlight that Ah used to think that clients should come first. But now you feel its staff should come first. Retention strategies, professional development. I don’t know if you mentioned mentoring, but that always comes up, you know, talk about investments and investments that are that need to be made in staff. And why you think staff is number one now, [00:20:24.54] spk_0:
boy, if I come a long way as a as an advocate for the poor from being a teenager, Um, when I worked in a volunteer in a soup kitchen myself, thanks to my good old Teamster union dad, um, I never wavered from clients first, and, uh, but, um, it’s not that I’m saying clients take a back seat. I’m saying that if we make staff, primary clients will be better served ma staff retention that nonprofits is alarming. And worse yet, Ah, younger generations, um, leave the sector faster than our generation. Those of us in our fifties, they leave the sector faster. Um, because they have a bad experience with a board or the the poor. Compensation is not livable for their family. So but it’s not just about the conditions of employment. It’s also about is the non profit a learning environment A learning organization here at lap of fundraising we have just 1/2 a dozen shared values within our firm and professional development and advancement is, um is one of them, and we pay every year, every staff person has a professional development plan, right, and we pay for it. And, um, we’re happy to do it. Um, because people are staff will tell you. You know, we aspire whether we succeed at it completely, I don’t have to ask them, but we aspire to be a learning organization, not just learning on our accounts, but learning from best practices in the field and colleagues we bring colleagues in, um, we’re big into what’s called the any a gram in our workplace. It’s a it’s ah, it’s an emotional intelligence system for the workplace that that helps people understand how there are clients are viewing the world how they’re built. The India graham dot Any a gram institute dot or ge. I believe, um, would introduce you to it has some videos there, [00:21:00.94] spk_1:
so we need to overcome Leave behind this idea that professional development technology to support staff. You know that these air luxuries, you know, we’re way cut. Being a couple of operating systems behind is okay, because it’s more important that we spend our money on the people or the programs. You know, that’s that’s that’s outdated, thinking you and what we’re seeing in terms of younger folks leaving the sector is bearing out that bearing out out. That’s evidence that we’re not providing what they’re looking for. So they try one or two jobs and then they leave. That’s that’s not talk about not sustainable. [00:21:26.64] spk_0:
I could just hear some of your audience members saying asked Lawrence to tell me where to find money for technology improvements or, UM, or professional development. [00:21:28.69] spk_1:
All right, well, good. You’re channeling the audience like Ideo. Ask the other. Answer them. [00:23:19.64] spk_0:
It’s hard. Um, I know what what we do is we build it into our overhead rate and where we can we try to get so many nonprofits have such a low overhead rate, and that’s again back with Bill Shore was talking about, um, some government contracts actually curb you at 10% and most nonprofits haven’t overhead rate at least a 23 24% and arguably it should be probably close to the 35. I think all the major universities are somewhere north of 50% overhead. So trying to get it into your overhead and then, of course, looking form or general operating support by identifying donor advised funds, which, by definition, as you know tony, are hidden. There are profiles you could use to assume that somebody probably has a donor advised fund. We do that nor prospect research. And then, of course, we asked directly when we’re talking to them or serving them. So people who have donor advised funds are very friendly to, you know, odd costs or what? You know what the As contrast that to institutional funders where you get a grant for your program. Sometimes in those grants you can add a computer. You can say we need, you know, 40 hours of professional development. So integrating it into all your fund raising on into your overhead rate has worked with many of our clients. Um And then, of course, there’s rare occasions when on our f p is issued where you can ask for things like that. [00:23:31.02] spk_1:
Uh huh. You doesn’t work with sterile needle exchange. Just talk about that a little bit. That sounds like a good story. [00:24:36.14] spk_0:
Yeah, Harm reduction. Um, again, a better set of problems. Um, it’s better toe. Have needle. Ah, needle users use clean needles, then toe Have them keep using dirty needles because it reduces the spread off HIV and STDs. Ah, and blood born infections. Um, so that’s a better harm. Reduction is a better set of problems with science behind it. And, um, this is true not just in the United States, but in, uh, all throughout the world and European countries who have harm reduction policies. Harm reduction is still needed. It it’s kind of fallen out of fashion. There’s just a handful, maybe two or three funders who are interested in it. The drug policy alliance is still interested in it. And the Komer Foundation, if if they’re still around, [00:24:40.50] spk_1:
what was What was your work in harm reduction? [00:25:29.42] spk_0:
Uh, well, I had, uh, helped, um, the New York harm reduction Educators in the Bronx form a hotline so that people could reach them, and, uh, we went to check cashing stores. Um, where the poor, The poor in the Bronx generally don’t use a bank. They pay to have their check cashed, which is a scandal unto itself, but its exorbitant if we would expand the United States Postal Service is toe what it was in the 19 fifties. They they wouldn’t have have that. There’s a direct link between the reduction of the role of the U. S Postal Service in its role with money orders and check cashing and the the upswing of these four profit sleazy check cashing. [00:25:38.50] spk_1:
Interesting. All right, we’re [00:26:04.35] spk_0:
but any way went to the check cashing places. And yes, we paid them. We had to pay them when they cashed the cheque to put our business card for the the New York Harm Reduction Educators with 1 800 number on And we saw, on average, 800 new enrollees into the non profit to get access to HIV prevention and treatment service is [00:27:17.24] spk_1:
I did. I did work in Philadelphia when I was in law school with an organization called Prevention Point, Philadelphia. It was it was a grassroots, sterile needle exchange. Excuse me. They were going toe parks in areas where they knew drug activity was high on weekends and literally distributing marked sterile needles marked so that they knew when they got their own back so they could had some. They had a measure of effectiveness. How many sterile needles were coming back and how maney unmarked needles So dirty needles they were getting off the streets, and that was incredibly rewarding. It was an internship, but just to see the the father’s walk up or drive up with a young child in tow and, you know, taking 1/2 a dozen needles and giving us 1/2 a dozen. Uh, but I know the statistics are there that it reduces on. This was 1989 1990. Uh, no. HIV was much more dangerous than it is now. [00:28:41.54] spk_0:
And he’s here. You see in art in the conversation right now between tony and I, how a fund raiser discovers his or her product to sell. This is what fundraisers do at the highest level. We listen to the caseworkers to the clients, to the statistics to the the best practice studies, for example, with a affordable housing program that I’m starting to work within Orlando, Florida The executive director was blown away because the first thing we were starting to do is we’ve read 10 years worth of completely boring but totally relevant thinking from the Orlando Housing Authority about their needs assessments. They do them, they’re required to do them every 10 years. And those documents are chock full with with really good data. Um, I mean, that’s something to be a proud of in our country is we still have some semblance of these local civic governments that are doing their due diligence about community need. Um, but this is how fundraisers then get a very powerful case for support develop. Um, and uh huh. That’s why there’s a chapter about impact and the the the product is your program, and it’s a [00:30:33.04] spk_1:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two reopening from Corona virus. That’s the special episode with Lisa Brauner. I just want to make sure that you heard it. It’s very good, very relevant, and I don’t want you to miss it if, uh, if you’re just sampling the show. Perhaps those were listening to every show, of course. All three of you, Cheryl, Rick and my dad. I’m just kidding about that. My dad doesn’t even know what a podcast is. So for Cheryl and Rick, I know that you are covered, but everybody else, Lisa is very smart. It’s a valuable show. We talk about dozens of issues for you to consider. As you plan to reopen your office reopening from Corona virus, you’ll find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Oh, and please, please keep taking care of yourself. Do it each day. You need it. You deserve it. Please do it. That is tony. Stick to now back to Lawrence Paige. Tony Panyu. Tony. He’s chairman of lap of fundraising. We’re talking about his book fundraising for 01 You talk about the donor as hero? What, uh, what are you thinking there? [00:30:36.04] spk_0:
Well, uh, [00:30:37.68] spk_1:
all right. Share your thinking. I know what you’re thinking cause I read your I read your book. So listen, you just got to get the book. If you want to flush out the full thunk thinking Sure. The launch will introduce you to his thinking as donors as heroes, [00:32:16.34] spk_0:
so many appeal letters or annual reports or newsletter. They make the client the hero. There’s there’s wisdom to that. They make the organization itself the hero. But in fund raising, the donor is the hero. And I grew up in a non profit sector that ignored that the ascent ignored the donor. The essential message to the donor for most of my life has been give and shut up. Um, but today’s donor wants to be heard. They want to be acknowledged. They will give MME. Or they will become more involved. It was Terry Axelrod, the founder of the Bena von model of fundraising that started to give me a hint that donors wanted to be engaged, and then the data bore that out. Um, I’ve started to take on clients who would tell me, Oh, we could never ask. Are our volunteers for money? I haven’t heard that question in the past five years or so. Ah, better set of problems, I think. I think people are more convinced that they realize their donors want to give and hello out there. If you think your dough. If you still think your donors, your volunteers going to No. Well, please evaluate that. Read my book and evaluate that because your volunteers want to give [00:33:07.07] spk_1:
you, uh, one little quote, you say as your writing. You know, as you’re writing to your donors, um, tell the story as if the donor were sitting before you over a cup of coffee. Uh, you suggest you see their smile, speak their name? Um, you make it up, make it a conversation. You know, this idea of stilted language? Uh, you have to fill in 8.5 by 11 page sheet of paper. Maybe. Sometimes you do. But if you don’t need to, then don’t. Um, handwriting, handwriting and written solicitations could be probably more sincere than something you produce on word and feel constrained, compelled to Philip age around. So no, get close and talk to people like like you would like to be talked to. [00:33:25.56] spk_0:
I learned from Tom Ahern about some of the nuances about making the donor the hero, and it actually influenced my book cover. You could see you know, [00:33:26.88] spk_1:
Darcis holding listening marches, holding up his book cover. Okay, [00:34:17.64] spk_0:
going below, there’s a hook with a dollar sign going below the surface of the water Because the point is to rid to raise the big money you have, Teoh, think more deeply about fundraising and what’s motivating the donor. Um, but we start making the case right on the cover of a newsletter or a case for support. We recently did a case for support for an animal welfare agency where we put a picture of the Cubist cat on one case and the cute his dog on the other with their owners who had just adopted them holding them. But right underneath that we put the question, How can we ever say no? So we’re we’re saying to the donor, [00:34:20.74] spk_1:
it wasn’t How can you How can you say no if you [00:34:23.95] spk_0:
ever say no? [00:34:24.74] spk_1:
Yeah, right. How can you say you ever seen get the you? You gotta get you with yours in there. [00:34:28.90] spk_0:
That you in there? [00:34:43.14] spk_1:
Okay, so I read the book you missed. You blew the Holt. Whole Point is, you gotta have the u in there. Not how can we get You are sorry. Um um [00:34:44.44] spk_0:
you your it’s all about you. [00:35:24.47] spk_1:
Yes, using yours. I know. Tom Ahern stresses that he even has a calculator on the Web somewhere. It might be a hearn dot com or something where you can put your text in and it’ll evaluate how many years you have versus how many wees or something like that, right? But I’m constantly I’m constantly rewriting, you know, the can we change the to you, the donor, Your you, your donors? I mean, as I am writing to clients instead of the donors, your donors, you’re talking now to the second person instead of the abstract third person, the donor that could be anybody’s donors. No, we’re talking about your donors, your donor. That’s just not not in the abstract. I think it bring. It makes it more concrete than using the site. That second person. [00:35:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and it also it’s It’s not just a linguistic shift. There’s research science behind it. Psychology, science, psychological sciences behind it that the donors feel like Oh, he really is talking about me and and so we raise more money with that approach. [00:35:54.39] spk_1:
By the way, did I did I mispronounce your name when I introduced you? [00:35:59.14] spk_0:
I know. You [00:36:00.34] spk_1:
know I didn’t I had hoped that I had met mispronounced your name because I had hoped that by now 6.5 years later you had changed the pronunciation of Panyu. Tony, why are you still defacing your beautiful Italian names with [00:36:14.79] spk_0:
parents? It’s worse than that. The whole name on the bastard bastard birth certificate is Lorenzo Antonio Paige non. Tony? [00:36:22.66] spk_1:
Yes, Panyu tony, why are you started [00:36:25.28] spk_0:
the opera? You know [00:36:26.63] spk_1:
I know you. You are in 2013. You mentioned your [00:36:33.25] spk_0:
grandmother. Grandmothers? Uh uh. She loved the operating that she tell me that old time your name’s a little opera. [00:37:18.63] spk_1:
I would rather you take the g out to make it pan, tony, or it switches to panini or something. Please. But you’re you’re killing the beautiful pronunciation. Panya non. I’ll try, tony. I promise to try. All right, it’s worth It’s worth the investment. It’s worth the investment in changing the pronunciation, not dispelling just a pronunciation. People will still be able to find you on the web. All right, um, you said you say all donors are major donors and following from that all gifts of major gifts. What? What? What is that to me? We know we’re stratify ing. We have our modest donors because we’re too afraid to call them small donors that we say their modest And then we have our mid level and major and then, you know, may be ultra. But you say all old owners are major donors. [00:39:54.42] spk_0:
Yes, because nobody has to give a dime to you. Nobody has to give their hard earned money to you. Nobody has to on because of that, they all should be treated in a major way. Now, of course, in the systems of fundraising, we might have automation in place. Hope thoughtful automation for donors who are, you know, from $1 to say, $5000 for major donors or transformational donors at the higher levels. You know, we have a more personal touch. It’s expensive. Major gift officers who know what they’re doing are have come at a higher salary because their skills are honed over years and they know how to deeply listen and use the data to ask for transformational gifts, multiyear gifts, legacy gifts. Um, but, um but but I’m trying to convey that we shouldn’t take any dollar, no matter the size amount for granted that that they don’t have to give and people are giving, you know Jesus pointed out in Scripture. The widow’s mite was greater than the Faris ease giving because she gave from her heart and she gave from her want. And, um so I had to learn again. Just like with professional development. I had a learned this the hard way. My development I belly eight about donor giving less than I thought he he could have My development director quietly closed the door, sat down with that white flustered look on his face like Lawrence. Jesus, Mother God, you know, what am I gonna do with you? You’re supposed to be our leader. And he said to me lardons every gift is a major one and he didn’t have to give that gift. And that’s a real story. And I went silent and I thought about it. And I thought, You know, that’s That’s damn true. Yeah, eventually, that donor, because of the way my development director treated him so kingly. He did give at much higher levels later on. But nobody has to give us a dime. [00:40:19.62] spk_1:
Generous would be proud of you. Still still quoting, still quoting scripture that influence that’s with you forever, I’m sure. Yeah. Uh, something else you. You, ah, seems provocative. That you devote a chapter to is, uh, revenue diversification. You you tell us it’s overrated. Flush that out. Would you? [00:41:37.61] spk_0:
For smaller organizations, divert revenue diversification is really essential. I’m not naive about that, but it’s expensive to do well. Um, most smaller organizations barely have. Well, the profile most organizations is that they don’t even have a development office state. They have the program director and the executive director rights to grants or, um, manages the gala. They might bring in a gala event consultant, but, um, when when Stanford University did a study of think it was 130 major nonprofits who had gotten over $50 million annual revenues, they discovered that diversification of revenue went down. And that study was a seminal piece of research that changed our thinking about diversification. So as a non profit grows to a better set of problems, um, its revenue should stream should become deeper, not wider, and a [00:41:38.56] spk_1:
few 1,000,000,000. What’s deeper in what’s most successful, [00:43:00.34] spk_0:
that’s right and most lucrative. For example, Habitat for Humanity. They started with, um in kind donations as there biggest source of revenue that the stuff that they needed for the houses that they were building good stuff, not just, you know, poor quality stuff. But then they realized that the people who donated that stuff were willing to donate. And so they started an individual donor program that eventually grew as they did. Don’t a research to major major gift program, and they went deeper and deeper into that source of revenue individual giving they before monthly giving. They formed eventually on line giving. They formed legacy societies. So within each revenue stream, you can create enormous depth. And, ah, instead of expanding outside, could habitat taken government money is probably some of them eventually did in localities that where the local government said, Hey, we wanna help because this is part of our community development, a program. And so they got some [00:43:46.04] spk_1:
time for our last break turned to communications. They’re former journalists, so you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard through the Corona virus cacophony. Plus, you want toe prepare, you got a plan to build media relationships. When all this noise subsides, there is a future after this. They know exactly what to do for you. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for fundraising for 01 This is also an example of where you need to invest in staff. You know, if you want. If you want to go deeper in the in the channel, the fundraising method that’s that’s most lucrative for you. You’re gonna have to do it with a professional who’s got an experience, got experience in that in that channel and maybe others as well. But it can’t continually be the executive director trying to deep in fundraising in the most look from the most lucrative source and manage the organization. Oversee the programs in short compliance. I mean, this is where you have to invest. If you want to be among those few charities that gets to the whatever 50 or $55 million level. You know it’s doable, but you need to invest in growth. [00:44:58.44] spk_0:
When I last talked to you in 2013 our firm talked a good game about Prospect Research Service is, and we did. We did deliver some service is, but we got honest with ourselves that we had to invest. Seven years later, we have you know, a six person T and we do Don’t a research. Now we find I mean, we found 108,000 new donors. Value aligned donors for Lutheran Social Service is we found 8000 new donors for the food bank in New Jersey. Um, we found ah, 42 new board member candidates for ST Christopher’s Inn and Garrison, New York. [00:45:15.86] spk_1:
I mean, our donor from in investing in Prospect Research. [00:45:24.09] spk_0:
Yeah, and and also the field itself has matured and developed. And it’s not just about the data. It’s about using how to use the data off when you marry the data of vendors with a trained fundraiser. That’s where you have the alchemy [00:45:37.49] spk_1:
and you have a whole. You have a chapter devoted to not underfunding advancement, development. It’s called development for a reason. You make the point. It needs to grow, and if you’re gonna grow it, you got to invest in it. So don’t under fund your development. Ah, [00:46:02.77] spk_0:
and by the way, I just gave you the tip for my the book. The next book, How to Find New Donors, which will be out sometime in 2021. [00:46:04.50] spk_1:
You’re doing a prospect research book. [00:46:29.78] spk_0:
Yeah. Uh, interesting. You call it that? I’m not sure. It’s funny. Um, I I’m professionally, I’m a fundraiser. I’m not a prospect researcher. Yeah, I use the tools. I know it in good prospect researchers. Obviously, we have them here at the firm E. And I know I’m not one of them, but I’m a fund raiser who uses the data So that put the books about. It’s a nuance, maybe a distinction without a difference. But But there are very wonky. Very good prospect research books out there that I couldn’t possibly Right. [00:46:54.18] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. But, um, I still have some other things I want to cover with you. We got, like, another 10 minutes or so left, but, uh, let me throw to you. What do you want to talk about from the book? [00:47:08.48] spk_0:
Well, right off, I’d like Teoh, uh, invite the reader to to actually read it. I talked to a lot of fund raisers, and I’m not [00:47:16.38] spk_1:
convinced. Sounds like that. I think that’s sound advice for a book. Ah, Book author? Yeah. Assumed my book, for God’s sake. [00:47:26.48] spk_0:
Well, I actually learned this from a terrific fundraiser. Who headed up the Heyman Institute, Um, at New York University. Ah, Naomi Levine. [00:47:32.24] spk_1:
Had I had her on the show years ago? Yes, I [00:48:20.87] spk_0:
remember. Naomi, you know, kicked my butt around. Lawrence, you know, you have to read not just in our field, extensively. But you have to read in the field of economics in the field of sociology in the field of of, ah, science because the donors are expert in those fields. I remember going into a meeting with an engineer on a plan gift. And, um, he mentioned something that I had read because of Naomi suggestion about the field of of environmental engineering. And I said to him, You know, I know enough to be dangerous, but are you talking about, you know, corrosive engineering protection and his I split up? How the hell did you know that? [00:48:24.77] spk_1:
You learned those words and friends. Corrosive engineering protection. And [00:49:05.17] spk_0:
there’s affinity on this is our job. Is fundraising whites or amazing field? You? Never, if you’re bored, is a fundraiser. Holy cow. Your read my book and find out. You know, a way to become a non board. But my point, tony, is that so many fundraisers. Our stayed there. Kind of. They know what they know. Um, I could tell you at this time in my life more about what I don’t know about fund raising that then what I know about it and why I surround myself with good thinkers myself. And I’ve been told that this book and this is my second point is both helpful for somebody advanced in fundraising like yourself. And it’s also helpful for people who are new or mid career that it’s a very approachable book. Primarily because I tell stories that are based in reality. And I then give the more advanced theory behind it. [00:49:32.27] spk_1:
Yeah, So I grab it. Is it is it You [00:49:34.44] spk_0:
found that to be the case? [00:49:46.87] spk_1:
It is approachable. Yeah. Um, it’s my turn again now. So you you have advice for ah CEO? Um, decision making and also CEO as fundraiser. So I want to put those two together and and explore what? What? Decisions about fundraising are appropriate at the CEO level. [00:51:16.76] spk_0:
So, uh, knowing the plan and understanding the plan of how to move to a better set of problems, do you have the same fund raising dilemma year in and year out. That’s the CEO’s job to kick the boards, but and the the development teams. But ah ah, because so many fundraising programmes have the same problem year in and year out. That means it’s stuck and, um, and that’s primarily on the shoulders of the CEO. Uh, the underfunding of the development team that’s on the shoulders of the CEO. The CEO has to find the revenue to fund the capacity to pay for developed. Um, and I offer many on my blawg at lap of fundraising dot com. I offer you know, thousands of suggestions about how toe pay for fundraising, and, um so there’s two examples Ah, third example I’d give of the CEOs job and fundraising. Is it? They have to, um, boxed the ears or guide the boards in [00:51:18.74] spk_1:
the stage box. Just 60 years, Yeah, box that years of war guide, okay [00:51:24.20] spk_0:
or guide? That’s they would guide [00:51:26.18] spk_1:
whose chooser is somewhere in that spectrum. [00:51:59.21] spk_0:
Somewhere that spectrum. They have to guide the board’s way to think about fund raising because boards who know nothing about fundraising are sitting there in judgment of professional fund raisers who have you know, 25 years of experience. There’s, They wouldn’t do that to the program director. Some of them do. But that’s another set of problems. They wouldn’t. They generally don’t do it to their attorneys. They wouldn’t. They certainly don’t do it to their auditors. They feel free to do it to their fundraisers, [00:52:07.34] spk_1:
things they would never do in their own business. They do, uh, routinely some boards, you know, to the CEO and the program staff of the board. Who’s the non profit, whose boards they said on. And you talk about a heavy lifting board gotta have a heavy lifting board. [00:53:18.95] spk_0:
Yes, governance is a thing. Governance is not for every volunteer. Its governance is not just for, um, the person who likes your mission or whose son or daughter benefited from from your mission. Governance is a business proposition that the nonprofit sector has designed, Um, and it has roles and responsibilities for not just fugitive fiduciary roles, but for long range planning. It’s the job of the executive team to think about the next three years, but it’s the job of the board to think about the next 5 to 10 years. Yeah, and most boards never really think about the long term plan now, you know, planning in this day and age is is it is it anachronistic? I don’t think it is but a little bit old fashioned, but I think plans should be nimble and changed. But you should still have, Ah, a long range plan about what you want to look like in 5 to 10 years. [00:54:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah, that heavy lifting board and in terms of fundraising as well. And you make the point that campaigns could be a very good I very good vehicle for, ah recycling board or replacing board members that aren’t that aren’t heavy lifting. Maybe there’s an advisory council they can go on or some kind of America’s status so that they’re not embarrassed but still age. But But they’re not. But they’re not a fiduciary any longer. With those obligations and eso right, we have just like a minute or so left. Uh, leave us. Leave us with something, but do it concisely, please. [00:55:46.67] spk_0:
Oh, we’re in the middle of as you and I record this were in the middle of the cove in 19 Pandemic. The nonprofits that are raising more money through this pandemic are the ones with a deep culture of philanthropy and that culture philanthropy is defined by resiliency. Resilience. Um, if you’re serious about the next pandemic or about your own viability in the future, the 23 chapters of this book well, deep in your culture of philanthropy so that you’re more prepared for the future. If you’re assessing yourself right now as that you were not ready for this pandemic, do not beat yourself up. But take it as a wake up call to start getting ready for the economic crisis that we’re going to be living through for the next couple of years, and for the very much needed reform of our health care system, so that the poor and uh, communities of color are better served than what we’re seeing in Cove in 19. And so that’s a real reason to read this right now. Tony, You and I have lived through many crisis is, and Cove in 19 certainly has its own characteristics that are unique. But, um, there are always crisis is that we face, and we have to be more resilient with a deeper culture of philanthropy, and fundraising for a one will help you get there. [00:55:59.84] spk_1:
That’s the book fundraising for a one master classes in non profit fundraising that would make Peter Drucker proud. He’s Lawrence Ape Agnone lap. [00:56:02.63] spk_0:
The [00:56:02.74] spk_1:
company is labra lap of fundraising dot com and at lap of fundraising. Lawrence. Thank you very, very much. My pleasure. [00:56:10.00] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thank you [00:57:29.30] spk_1:
for sharing. Okay. Next week, more 20 and TC panel interview Greatness. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo creative producer is Clear My wrath. Sam Liebowitz Managed stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our guy. This music is by Scott’s time with me next week for not profit radio, big non profit ideas. 14 of their 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.
Let’s have a romp through the fields of data privacy and cybersecurity, musing as we frolic on just how important the right practices and policies are to your nonprofit. My guest is Jon Dartley, Of Counsel at