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Nonprofit Radio for July 24, 2020: Black Philanthropy Month & Collaborations: MOU To Merger

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Jacqueline Copeland & Valaida Fullwood: Black Philanthropy Month
BPM 2020, in August, examines how all forms of funding can advance the economic justice so essential for racial equity. My guests are BPM founder Jacqueline Copeland and co-architect Valaida Fullwood.






Gene Takagi: Collaborations: MOU To Merger

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi is seeing more interest among nonprofits in exploring co-ventures of some sort. We talk through how to start that journey internally and externally, and what form your collaboration might take. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group.






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[00:03:13.34] spk_0:
on Welcome tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. Id. Bear the pain of familial, benign Pem Fergus If you got under my skin with the idea that you missed today’s show Black Philanthropy Month BPM 2020 in August examines how all forms of funding can advance the economic justice so essential to achieve racial equity. My guests are BPM founder Jackie Copeland and co architect Valetta Fulwood. Also, collaborations MoU to merger Jean Takagi is seeing more interest among nonprofits in exploring co ventures of some sort. We talked through how to start that journey internally and externally, and what form your collaboration might take. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo. The non profit and exempt organizations Law group on Tony’s Take Two planned giving accelerator were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Ger Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo. Here is Black Philanthropy Month. It’s my pleasure now to welcome Jackie Copeland and violate a full would to the show. Uh, anthropologist Jackie Copeland is co founder of Pan African Women’s Philanthropy Network, a global association of African descent, and allied women leaders, donors and activists of all backgrounds. Idea Whisperer. Wait, no, there’s more to say about Jackie. Sorry about that. Jackie founded Black Philanthropy Month in 2011. She’s founder and CEO of the Wise Fund, promoting human rights through equitable funding and technology towards a just society and sustainable planet. It’s at the wise fund dot, or GE, and she’s at Jackie Be Copeland Idea Whisperer. Valetta Fulwood has a client base that ranges widely and her interests center on social innovation in philanthropy, education and the arts. She helps people and organisations Dr Bold ideas forward by guiding their projects and by writing their stories. She’s at Valetta dot com v a l a i d. A. And at Valetta F Jackie Vallejo Welcome. Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:03:16.23] spk_1:
Thanks me.

[00:03:19.78] spk_0:
Absolutely pleasure to have you, Jackie. Let’s start with you. You’re the founder of Black Philanthropy Month. What’s it all about?

[00:07:00.44] spk_1:
Well, um is inspired by all of the diverse people I’ve worked with from the U. S. African Americans, but also to black diaspora worldwide for 30 years. And it’s clear that people give and give abundantly, but often do not fully recognize the power and impact of their individual giving and don’t even necessarily see themselves as philanthropists. So it was specifically inspired in 2011 by a very diverse group of black women in Minneapolis. At the time, it had the most ethnically diverse black population in the country, and everyone was giving. There were ancient giving circles that were being replanted and adapted to the U. S. All kinds of social enterprises. And I became like the pro bono adviser, and I knew it would be powerful. Even I knew all these women, but they didn’t know each other. And at the time I was teaching philanthropy at the University of Minnesota, which hosted the formation of this this group Pan African Women’s Philanthropy Network that I started and based on that experience, I thought it would be helpful if there were actual month where we step back. Ah, as a global community and recognize are giving is import and how to do it better, better and more collaboratively so that we can have a greater influence on the social and economic and environmental challenges that face black people wherever they are on the planet. So that was the genesis of it. It was also inspired by the U. N. Had an international decade for people of African descent. Also recognizing that there were these common, this common threat of history in common challenges that require more visibility and social action. It became a decade recognizing, um, people of African descent. And so now the U. N has recognized black philanthropy mom as an important pillar in um, acknowledging a celebrating black culture globally and now third, I think 30 plus different government entities from cities, towns and states have recognized Flat Philanthropy Month, and I think we’ve counted 17 million or so people engaged so far. So it’s becoming a global movement, which is part of what I was hoping for. But Valetta will tell the story of how they she got involved, and there’s another woman who couldn’t make it today who I always want to acknowledge. Tracey Webb, who was a pioneer in her own right. She created the first black philanthropy blogger I’ll call Black Gives Back. And she also is the founder of a prominent giving circle called Bled Black Benefactors. And so that’s kind of the story that was me as founding it. And I, um, for three years was doing it, um, largely alone and with some of the women from Minnesota and inflate a in Tracy.

[00:07:06.43] spk_0:
Okay, a poignant that it’s founded in Minneapolis.

[00:07:10.94] spk_1:
Uh, yeah, for obviously genesis of our whole reasons. Yeah,

[00:07:15.70] spk_0:
Genesis of our old racial conversation. Now, after the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

[00:07:35.28] spk_1:
Well, Minhas Minneapolis is a unique place where the best the greatest social challenges of America and some of our best opportunities are sort of concentrate it. And so, as I look back, is not surprising that this new phase of the global racial justice movement would have come out in Minneapolis

[00:07:45.24] spk_0:
before we turn to Valetta doing Do you know the the impact of the rough dollar amount of black philanthropy in recent in last year? 2018?

[00:08:27.37] spk_1:
Well, there haven’t been studies recently. Eso Most of us are citing data from 2000 and 14 and for about 20 years there’s been research on US black philanthropy, and all of it confirms that African Americans continue to give the highest proportion of their income to philanthropy, and that’s even in recessions and effect. Our philanthropy goes up in a recession.

[00:08:28.64] spk_0:
There are

[00:08:45.64] spk_1:
always communities. Philanthropy goes down in a recession, but for a lot of cultural reasons, and people don’t realize this is like a hardwired part of the culture is how you become grown and recognized as an adult you have causes

[00:08:48.07] spk_0:
does. It doesn’t

[00:08:48.90] spk_1:
start ever amount that you are giving to and supporting with your time, talent and treasure as part of being black.

[00:09:46.64] spk_0:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As paycheck protection program. Loan forgiveness. I got a message from my bank that they have presentations on this, but they’re only for bank clients. That’s fine for me. But what if your lender doesn’t have resource? Is if they just send you a link to their form? Wegner has you covered their latest free wagon are explains the state of P P P loan forgiveness. What’s forgivable? What documentation do you need? How to work with your lender? Go to wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events now back to Black Philanthropy Month with Jackie Copeland and violate a full would. Does it start or did? It doesn’t have its roots, its roots in churches.

[00:10:02.24] spk_1:
It has his roots in churches, but in part because the church is such an important social institution in our multi century history in the US But if transcends churches, it is also a voluntary associations is wherever two or more black people are gathered, they figure out something to give

[00:10:21.99] spk_0:
to, however later. Lett’s bring you in. Um, if you wanna talk a little about the black philanthropy months. But then I also want to talk about the summit that kicks it off on on August 1st.

[00:12:44.77] spk_2:
Oh, yes, great. So I was there in 2011 in Minneapolis when Jackie convened the Pan African Women’s Philanthropy Summit and um was really elated when she announced August is Black Philanthropy Month, in part because at that same time, I had just finished on my manuscript for the book, giving back a tribute to generations of African American philanthropists, and the book was gonna be released in October. So this convening in August in Minneapolis was some timely and to be gathered with other black women from across the globe to learn and also to share about. My forthcoming book was, um, really It’s for inspirational and just great timing. So I continue to follow Jackie’s work with black philanthropy months as I rolled out the book and engaged in book talks around the country. And then in 2000 and 2013 I reached out to my friend Tracy Web, which Jackie Jackie mentioned earlier. And Tracy had a huge following with her Blawg like It’s back dot com and also was building a network through my work around the book and thought, Hey, you know, we can really amplify and magnify black philanthropy. It’s the three of US war to join forces and use our respective networks and collective networks. Teoh, you really take Black Follansbee months to another level. So I reached out to Jackie, pitched the idea, uh, which I thought was pretty awesome. But I really hope she might see the same. And she was gracious and oh, saying yes to women that she only knew slightly and, um, when we rolled out, let Philanthropy Month in a new way, particularly leaning on social media engagement and our connections there. It really did take off and go to a whole, another level nationally and globally, which gave us a glimpse into the possibilities. So ever since then, we’ve been working in collaboration.

[00:12:47.90] spk_0:
Was just saying, I’m looking forward. Next year’s your 10th anniversary,

[00:12:50.74] spk_2:
you got

[00:13:19.02] spk_1:
way. I believe it because let’s just say this has been a labor of love and our own pocketbooks, Okay, because, um, this is not, Let’s just say this is amount of money making enterprise, but it is just there so much challenge in our community. And a lot of the media only reports what’s wrong with us. And as a social scientists and activists, I committed myself focusing on what’s right with us. So look over a week, and that’s what philanthropy is. And I forgot to mention you ask, how much for African Americans is at least $12 billion a year? Okay. And some people count the Remittances of African immigrants

[00:13:40.02] spk_0:
right going

[00:14:08.64] spk_1:
because a good portion of those gold to build schools and for healthcare scholarships, and so that’s $11 billion. Just so we’re talking about just the us $23 billion nobody has a true global number. That would be a great research project. I’m working on a proposal for it. I hope somebody funds it because you really do need to know globally, how much by country and then on aggregate global level is black black giving

[00:14:14.74] spk_0:
later. How about the summit that kicks off Philanthropy Month, August 1st black giving and beyond Virtual summit? Tell us,

[00:14:23.48] spk_2:
Yeah, we’re thrilled about it. It was Jackie’s brainchild that she shared with me and Tracy, I think, late last year, and we’ve been building on it again. It was before the pandemic before the outcries against racial injustice, but it seems right on time. So the idea is to host a global virtual convening on a high tech event platform that invites participation from all across the world. And we have, ah, really stellar lineup of speakers and Panelists, and discussions will focus on how we can aggregate funding and resource is in capital to help in the recovery and rebuilding of black communities. In the wake of these twin pandemics. As Jackie often says, any black racism and Corona virus

[00:15:21.78] spk_0:
info info on all this is that black philanthropy month dot com, right?

[00:17:06.79] spk_1:
Yes. Please. Thank you. We want to commercial. We want people to people to go to black philanthropy month dot com Learn about this summit and register and under build on what violator was saying We’re trying very. We missed being able to come together in person. I mean, I think that is one of the most difficult aspects of this whole Corona virus period. So we’re trying our best to simulate a, um a real life in person conference environment with this platform there. Four days August 1st is to kick off with Soledad O Brien Bakari Sellers, Benjamin jealous and a activist on racism and technology named Joy Belluomini. Um and then all his fourth and fifth are in Africa. We have the Kim Daymo Trumbo as a keynote speaker, along with a very prominent philanthropist named I Show Mohammed or you’re both day. Ah, and then we are having on August 29th a women’s rally and that will be headlined by some of the top women leaders of philanthropy. Like most communities, black women do a lot of the heavy lifting for giving funding, care giving, and let’s just say we’re under some really special stresses in this Corona virus period and with this severe economic downturn has got 20% at least 20% black unemployment, 40% of our small businesses, clothes closing and 1/3 of all Corona viruses. The virus deaths in the US are black on a lot of that

[00:17:10.90] spk_0:
is proportionate again.

[00:17:32.21] spk_1:
Yeah, a lot of that care giving and community giving falls on us. So we’re trying to also revive our ideas in our spirits through this entire summit. Siris for four events Let’s let’s talk

[00:18:03.91] spk_0:
some about some of the racial inequities around around broader philanthropy. I know black flan. Three month is devoted toe elevating black philanthropists and funders and investors. But I want to go a little broader and talk about some of those inequities in philanthropy generally. And, of course, you know, tie it to the the conversation that we’re all having about systemic, institutionalized racism. What’s the, well, the later listed contento? Later for Okay, please.

[00:18:52.34] spk_2:
Yes, The data says that roughly 2% of ah foundation funding from the country’s largest funders go directly to black led organizations and black communities, which is, you know, really shocking figure when I first learned of that. And so that is evidence of the chronic underfunding and also some of the racial bias that exists. The conscious and unconscious bias that exists in the philanthropic realm and black philanthropy Months and discussions at the summit are all centered around, uh, making things right and more equitable, and just in the philanthropic and just general funding round. So,

[00:18:53.18] spk_0:
Jackie, what’s the what’s the role then of black philanthropists and and funders, et cetera, In bringing about that change,

[00:20:58.39] spk_1:
right? Well, I want to note that the reason the summit is called black giving and beyond is we realize that there are Eddies and equities that we have to talk about our own philanthropy, our own giving his black people. But we also have to talk about the responsibility of institutional philanthropy to our community and address some of these longstanding disparities are delivering. In 19 eighties, when we were when I first started, we grabbing the same conversations. It is like deja vu all over again, cause it hasn’t gotten that much better. And so, um, philanthropy is a key piece of it, but with the figures, I just shared with you around Really, the decimation of black communities in this cove it era is going to take more than fully. And the truth is, when we look at social investment and venture funding, we get about 1% of those funds as well. So there is just there’s a problem with private sector funding toe black communities, whether we’re looking at philanthropy or business funding, and our nonprofits and our businesses have to be strong to rebuild what we’ve lost. Win had it much anyway, and we’ve lost so much just in the recession has just gotten started that this summit is inviting philanthropists. Community and institutional toe have this question discussion about equity, but also VC funders and social investors. And so, in fact, every session we have tried to have health care expert who can talk about the impact of Corona virus, but also institutional or community philanthropy and activist as well as a V, C or social investment funder. And so our model, our hashtag we have a couple of them. We call ourselves the Fund Black Summit. That’s our nickname and black funding matters. And in that statement is not just philanthropy. Of course, that’s that’s what’s driving us. It’s part of our culture. But our for Ray into the social justice movement, our current racial equity movement is to say, Look, there’s a serious problem with funding overall, what are we going to do about it?

[00:21:30.43] spk_0:
And so you need to be talking and not just you. We all need to be talking beyond the black philanthropy and funding and investing community. I mean, you do

[00:21:35.55] spk_1:
you want me? Oh,

[00:21:54.64] spk_0:
you won’t be talking more much more broadly because every $3 billion is sizable, although, you know, roughly half of that is leaving the U. S. We have is valuable, which has its as its place. But but roughly only half is staying here. And in the big scheme of of giving, you know, that’s a that’s a small amount. So

[00:22:58.79] spk_1:
in the big scheme of get funding, we’re talking trillions when you air in. I’m venture funding and you add in social investment. And so we really are talking about how do black folks get fair Access to the capital doesn’t necessary to sustain any people or community. And so it’s an economic justice summit as well, and we hope that the practical outcome and belated alluded to this is the’s on just fund black new black funding principles that include philanthropy but moved beyond it to ask the hard questions of veces Why do you have why is it OK to funding young man who dropped out of college and had a good idea but has no track record? Give him millions and millions of dollars and dope hold him accountable for it. But then you can have Ivy League educated black business leaders who have created a profit proven themselves, and they have to jump through all kinds of hoops because of this hoops on

[00:23:06.14] spk_2:
fire at that.

[00:23:48.44] spk_1:
Now this implicit bias you have around how women can’t do certain kind of business or how you know black people aren’t good with numbers, even though people aren’t doing that on purpose. That that’s what implant implicit bias is sure, Um, and it really has an impact in our communities. Folks in Minneapolis, we’re saying we don’t own anything. We can’t own it. We can’t own our businesses. We can’t on the house because of the price of living. When you have a whole group of people who feel like they have no stake in the future of the community and the country cause they can’t get fairness is back for democracies. That’s what we’re partly up to. Yeah, later you have Valetta Door has something to add to that

[00:24:36.91] spk_0:
I was gonna go. I was going to say bad. It’s devastating way We were nowhere near realising our full potential as a country where, what 1/4 of the population is It has just been victim to institutionalized structures, processes racism times Well, 400 years if you want. But certainly I’m thinking even just of more modern times. But, you know, of course, the tragedy goes back. 401 years were nowhere nowhere near reaching our potential as a country. When when that kind of that kind of proportion of the population is not ableto not able to achieve what the other 75% can. Yeah.

[00:25:46.04] spk_1:
Yeah, And I think that George Floyd video as tragic as it is and I still haven’t seen it because I don’t have the emotional I can’t really say I will not see it because I know it. I live in I can’t see it and continue to focus um but I’m glad the world saw it. And it was a very, very brave young woman. Darnell afraid her in Minneapolis recorded it because I think it was a wake up call for the country on the planet. Look, something is seriously wrong. We can’t just keep our heads in the sand and say that, you know, we’re often told. Well, you got a chip on your shoulder. That was the old days. The civil rights movement has come. You have overcome. But that could have been that could have been President Obama. I hate to say it. It could have been any black man or woman with the U. S. Who was subject to that kind of treatment that our education levels are. Achievement are meritocracy does not protect us or give us equal. It’s all off my soapbox. But you asked.

[00:25:48.77] spk_0:
All right, put Europe. Now I put you up there. I want to hear it. Yeah,

[00:27:26.64] spk_2:
Particular points I wanted to add about the summit specifically is one point we always like to make. While liberation is not free, the summit is so it is open to the public and free to register. I’d also like to emphasize the global aspects of it. As Jackie mentioned, It’s a summit series that kicks off, kicks off on August 1st and continues on the 4th 5th and 29th. And I think, um, you referenced 16 19 and the 400 now 104 101 years of documented black life in America. And the fact that this summit is inviting a global conversation I think is significant, particularly at at a time when black people all over the world are recognizing. Or, uh, I guess that we know. But their headlines and media stories from China to Europe to, you know, here in the States and Brazil about anti black racism and the disparities in health and economics that exists. And so we all recognize our connections wherever we are. And there’s also the fact that, um, kind of the the year of the return that 2019 marked for many of us. Many, like people and families, return to Africa to connect to their roots. Um, ancestry dot com and other DNA testing companies have made popular people finding their roots and tracing it back to Africa and being curious and interested in reconnecting with communities there. So the fact that this year’s BPM has ah, very specific global focus and invitation is a significant variety ways. And so we’re excited about that.

[00:29:34.11] spk_1:
Yeah, I will say that the black I asked for was always involved in part because of those Minneapolis roots there were when Minneapolis had, at the time, the largest populations of Liberians and Somalis and Kenyans in the U. S. And they were. It’s still our cause. That coalition is still alive and, well, part of this coalition of women. Um, that put on the first summit. Okay, but now actually having an Africa base, especially for like, for me as an African nous anthropologists focusing on Africa and a diaspora it’s sort of our track into the global economy as well. Global economy. Israel You can’t just focus on your backyard. We all have to figure out how to collaborate across borders is just and do business. And so it is really, um, an act of also, um, not just solidarity for practical economic empowerment. We’re asking the question. How could we support each other’s issues? No matter where you go, black women tend to have the highest rates of maternal mortality in their communities. And that’s triple in Africa that strictly Europe. That’s true in the U. S. S. So there are these global questions about our future, and we can Onley come up with the answers is if we’re collaborating across the lines of national origin, ethnicity, religion, and we define ourselves in many ways, just like Asian or Jewish people. There’s a lot of diversity within. Diversity is beautiful to bring it all together in this summit experience.

[00:30:13.70] spk_0:
Are we gonna leave it there then? All right, that’s beautiful. Wrap up Black Philanthropy Month Black Philanthropy month dot com kicks off August 1st we all well, we all are wanted to participate. We all are sought after so black philanthropy dot com We didn’t say it, but I’ll just shout out quick. The theme for this year’s Black Flam three month is Foresight 2020 which is cool. That’s very good. Thank you very much. Jackie. Jackie Copeland. You’ll find her at the Wise Fund dot or GE and at Jackie, Be Copeland and later Fulwood Valetta dot com. And at Valetta F Jackie Valetta. Thank you very much.

[00:30:21.39] spk_1:
You can tony and later

[00:32:36.04] spk_0:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant non. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’m very proud to announce the launch of planned giving accelerator. This is a yearlong membership community where I am going to teach you everything I know about how to start and build your planned giving program. Just like this show. It’s designed for small and mid sized nonprofits. I’m gonna produce an exclusive podcast for members. Exclusive. Webinars. We’ll have asked me anything Sessions on Zoom in small groups. There’s gonna be a Facebook community that’s private. Just for members will have all kinds of resource is checklists, templates, everything you need, and I’ll share everything I know on how to start your planned giving program. It’s planned giving accelerator go to planned giving accelerator dot com. You’ll find all the info there. That’s where you sign up to join the membership. Our yearlong membership community. I hope you’ll join me if you don’t have a plan to giving program. This is the time to get started. You’ll pay a lot less for a full year. Then you’d pay to work with me directly in just a month. Everything you need is that planned giving accelerator dot com that is Tony’s Take two Now. Time for collaborations. Mou to merger It’s my pleasure to welcome back Jean Takagi. It

[00:32:38.49] spk_1:
always is. You know

[00:33:00.14] spk_0:
him. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law blogged dot com, and is the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non profit lawyer. He’s a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com, and he’s at G Attack. Welcome back to the show, Gene. Always a pleasure to see you.

[00:33:07.84] spk_3:
Thanks so much. Great to see G tony

[00:33:10.02] spk_0:
doing okay out in California. So

[00:33:11.80] spk_3:
I am thinking Okay. Um how about how about you?

[00:33:15.04] spk_0:
Yes. The beach on the ocean are still across the street from me, so I mean,

[00:33:19.09] spk_3:
that’s fantastic. Very angry.

[00:33:26.34] spk_0:
I wake up every day with a notion across the street. And how bad can it be? Thank you. Yeah, I’m doing fine too. Thanks.

[00:33:29.64] spk_1:
So we’re talking

[00:33:58.99] spk_0:
about, um, you know, joining forces on and there’s Ah, there’s a broad spectrum of possibilities that this can take on, but without getting too technical on before we get to some of the summit of possibilities, you’re seeing an uptick in your practice and research is showing their stats. They’re showing their arm or not profits considering or exploring some kind of collaboration. You know what’s going on? What are you seeing?

[00:35:42.54] spk_3:
Yeah, and, um, I appreciate kind of being able to tell you that I’m doing well, but I know that there are a lot of people out there that are going through some pretty tough times right now, and there are a lot of organizations that are going through some very tough times, and that’s definitely not restricted the for profit sector. It’s hitting the nonprofit sector very hard right now as well. On top of that, the demand for many non profit service’s are higher than ever, as a lot of people are struggling through these times, so, yeah, non profits are getting hit hard on the revenue side. They’re getting hit hard because of the man, for their service is on their limited ability to deliver them with all of our shelter and place orders. So, through all of that, um, you know, there have been some conjecture that that many, many nonprofits are not going to survive. Over the next year on, we’ll see the loss of many nonprofits. And there’s this desire that many of these nonprofits air serving communities that are not getting the attention that they might from larger, stronger, financially organizations it might go under the radar and looking to see how their programs and what they’re trying to do is going to fit in. And in this time, where we’re also seeing this huge movement towards greater equity, racial equity, social justice, picking up these small nonprofits and their programs, and saving them so that the beneficiaries who are most impacted by the pandemic and all of the associate ID bad things that happened around it has become important. So nonprofits were struggling looking to save programs may be looking for some sort of collaborative partner to help them through and some of the bigger funders and bigger organizations are saying yes, we want to do more of these severely impacted communities that we’re not reaching as much as you know, some of these smaller organizations are. We want to collaborate with them and keep those service is alive.

[00:36:28.23] spk_0:
So if if we feel like we’re in that boat, uh, I mean, I guess it could be either were way. You feel particularly, um, strong in our community, or we feel like we’re at risk and vulnerable in our community. Um, where would we start this? Where would we start the possible collaboration conversation? We said we start internally. I’m sure what? What we need to be talking about among our C suite and are board.

[00:37:59.43] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And hopefully there’s a sense or ready with some organizations that you do know your allies in the space. They may not exactly overlap with you. Probably they shouldn’t, you know, for reasons of competition. But you generally know who your allies are, and I’m marrying you. Want to call collaboration? If you want toe equated to a marriage in some form, you don’t want to marry a total stranger. There’s, um, a huge risk to that. But if you do know some organizations out there that are allied with you, um um, or if you go to your community foundations if you kind of know about them but don’t really haven’t inside sort of a deeper relationship with with some of their key stakeholders and board members and C suite officers getting introductions from community foundations from large funders who being be funding multiple organizations in the same area. That’s kind of how how I would start to get started. Teoh first have the executives start to just talk about it in general, hopefully from a position not like a urgent panic, Um, but from a position of well, let’s see how we can best serve our communities that we’re both trying to do well it and do it in the best way possible.

[00:38:53.57] spk_0:
I read an article that you suggested, written in response to ah question that was submitted by a museum that was on the stronger side in the community and wanted to open conversations but didn’t want to appear predatory. And as I said, you know, there are there are a lot of ways to work together short of merger. There are different, just sort of service agreements and mutual understandings could be a contract or that’s legally enforceable or not. But there are a lot of different ways to work together. So at this early stage, you’re just asking or inviting. No, we all know that we’re struggling. Would you be open to, ah, a conversation about how we might work together, how we might collaborate to serve the community in this, you know, increased time of need.

[00:39:17.03] spk_3:
I think that’s exactly right, tony. And the greater emphasis that you could put on your common missions and forget about, at least in the initial discussions, forget about, like, power dynamics and all of that. But just go in two people talking about their organizations and what they’re trying to do to strengthen their communities and say, What are we trying to do? Where are risks to those communities? How is our missions are common mission at risk? And what can we do? The best address that as we’re facing these unprecedented forces right now, um that are really hurting on the communities were trying to serve and could eventually you’re gonna enter into the discussion that it could, you know, possibly, uh, cause a cut in service is or possibly three eventual shutdown of a program or a worst case, the dissolution of an organization. And I wouldn’t lead with that. But that’s something that that both parties want to be transparent about as they continue their discussions.

[00:40:58.51] spk_0:
Right, Right. But initially, you’re just exploring. That’s right. We’re not talking about shutting down here program or us shutting down hours. We’re sharing about where we’re struggling and where we’re succeeding. Know some organizations are doing well in fundraising in the midst of this triple crisis dream, healthcare, racial equity and and recession and others are not. So you’re just that the exploration stage, I guess, is what I’m is what I’m saying and then going beyond that is that when you would start to draw your board in? You know, I’ve had a couple of conversations with the CEO over at whatever agency we’ve been exploring some some ways that we might be able to help each other. You know, is that the stage you would start to bring this conversation to your board?

[00:41:27.81] spk_3:
Yeah, it depends upon or soon, yeah, it depends upon the board that you have. So it might be bringing in the board chair if that person is particularly strong, um, in their leadership on maybe is well connected if you have some board members who are who can take that role without necessarily bringing the full board in,

[00:41:35.88] spk_0:
right. Oh, I’m sorry. I just meant when I said bring the board and I meant make him privy to your conversations. Yeah, bring them to meetings with the other agency.

[00:42:35.97] spk_3:
Yeah, even even in the conversations before you bring it out to the full board. Because sometimes confidentiality is hard, especially with larger boards. You may want to keep it to a smaller group until you feel like you’ve got something serious. Um, so sometime I was blowing confidentiality because you shirt with too many people off the coffee meeting, Yeah, can kill the whole deal. So just to be careful about, then it depends upon your board. If you have a board of three people, you’re probably best to shirt with the whole three board members right away and make sure that they’re going to keep it confidential. If you have a board of 25 people, maybe not sure with them your first conversation, but take it to the board chair executive committee level. I feel like if there’s something there, then bring it to the board. It’s The board will come in early. But after maybe a couple conversations

[00:43:52.25] spk_0:
time for our last break turn to communications relationships, the world runs on them. We know this turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help when you need to be heard, so that people you know so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for collaborations. MoU to merger You have an excellent post at non profit law block dot com that lists a lot of different possible alliances from the least least legally in encumbering, I guess, which is the MOU, or memo of Understanding through merger, which is a total sacrifice of independence on the part of one non profit in favor of another. Um, so there’s a there’s a broad spectrum of possibilities, and at this exploratory stage, we’re not No, we don’t have anything particular in mind. We’re just trying to find out how we might be able help each other.

[00:44:02.89] spk_3:
I think that’s right, tony in and for people to just make it a black and white decision of like, whether we merger, we don’t merge. That’s you know that’s just too serious, that that’s like proposing marriage on your first date,

[00:44:35.89] spk_0:
right? Right. That’s a mistake, and it’ll scare somebody away. It might scare both parties merger, and neither one of us are ready for that. But there’s a lot of possibility. So, um, I let’s see, How can we find this article at non profit law block dot com, the one that lays out all the different methods of aligning?

[00:44:38.74] spk_3:
I I think, non profit collaborations, structural options. And so if you go onto the non profit la blogged dot com, there’s a search far. If you hit non profit collaborations, you’ll find it.

[00:45:08.19] spk_0:
Okay. Excellent. Thank you. Okay, I’m now. Okay. So now let’s say we have furthered our conversations and we see some possibility, but we don’t know what structure to take. How do we how to read procedure? Help us out?

[00:48:05.87] spk_3:
So e think you’re really aiming to see exactly what you want to do, what each party wants to do and where your meeting in common. So if there’s this idea that we want to work together, but we don’t know each other very well, Um, let’s see what we can do. That might be kind of the non binding MOU, the sort of the least amount of commitment made by either organization on that spectrum of collaborations. Um, so you know, we don’t know each other yet. Let’s get to know each other a little bit better. Let’s see if we work to work on this project together. You do this, I’ll do this on and it be their side fails to do it in the way the other side wants. Nobody gets in trouble. I mean, that’s just your your own thing. If you feel like there’s something more to it and it’s more urgent, it’s like, you know, we’re about to, you know, get to the point where we seriously might have to curtail. Our service is to this group of people. Um, and we know you’re also serving them, but in a slightly different way. Is there something we can do to help strengthen our ability to continue our service of of this group of beneficiaries through some sort of thing that we do collaboratively, you know? Can we do it jointly? Are there any efficiencies that we can have if we coordinate our activities together and in this case, one party might be or both parties might be a little bit dependent upon the other party meeting their obligations because they failed to do it, what the other party could could not be able to do their job either. In that case, maybe a simple sort of contract would be involved. T make sure that we’ve got it binding, that we owe this obligation to each other, um, and will formalize it in a contract. Um, all the way to if we know that this organization may not make it, but we want their programs. Um, and both parties want to say this single program that is essential there might be a transfer, an asset transfer of programs, intellectual property associate with the programs of employees that were working on the programs they might shift toe work for. The new employers of the program is housed in two different entities that would be some sort of asset transfer agreement and merger might be kind of at the very end of that spectrum of where we think it’s in the best interest of both organisations. It might not be that one would go away, but we think that there’s so much synergy. And after really thoughtful discussion and due diligence, we think we’re gonna be more much more powerful in delivering our mission, our common missions together rather than apart.

[00:48:10.33] spk_0:
It sounds like some legal help may be appropriate here if we’re gonna enter into some kind of collaboration with another non profit.

[00:48:59.57] spk_3:
Yeah, I like the idea, and this is a little self serving, because I but I like the idea of Brown wears in early, so you can. They can give you kind of you all of the options menu, if you will. Sometimes merger consultants, which I think are absolutely necessary as well, can come in there, and they may be trying to attain their goal. Eso if their merger consultant very thinking merger kind of because a surgeon think surgery is the response to a health issue. That’s the tool they know for the more experienced consultants who deal with these array of options. You know, if you if you’re sure you have a consultant like that, they’re probably gonna get get you far down the path as well. But the lawyer might be able to just sort of add those little tips on and steer you away from certain traps at the beginning. You don’t have to hire the the lawyer to do kind of full blown due diligence surfaces off day one, Um, but bringing them in early might lead you down the right past.

[00:50:06.66] spk_0:
There’s some psychosocial aspects to this to, like, ego and trust. We’re we’re gonna have to put aside our ego if we’re going to, if be willing to admit that we can’t continue on our own, um, and trust, you know, even if even the most stringent contract still requires trust between between the parties because no, no contract can envision everything. And if there isn’t trust going into a contract, I think you’re I think you’re doomed even with one that’s well written. So there’s some interpersonal aspects to this do

[00:50:43.06] spk_3:
absolutely, um, and trust. But to the extent you can verify, so make sure you know the individuals that you’re putting trust in, You know, when coffee meeting is great, but you’re gonna want to know that person more. You’re gonna want to know what their culture is more since culture is going to be really important in any kind of collaboration, whether there’s a culture fit if you don’t know, you know who the people are on the other side that are suddenly gonna be working together with your organization’s people. Um, that that could be a huge risk factor that you have to know how, how this is going to blend together

[00:51:08.40] spk_0:
so that if you do have the luxury of time, neither neither non profit is failing and in crisis. Then, you know, basically your advice was, hold hands before you get married, take things slowly, and then maybe you can expand the collaboration as you see whether the cultures match whether the objectives are being met. Are we actually delivering better service is or more service is Have we saved money? So, you know, have some of these goals been met cause a lot of times they’re not.

[00:51:44.66] spk_3:
I like that, tony. And so when organizations are operating both in a position of strength, even if one is bigger and what color that works out really nicely. So you can you can hold hands and get closer before you finally decide what ultimate step you want to take together. Um, so that’s what I prefer. I know, especially in these times, that may not be the reality for many organizations.

[00:51:50.56] spk_0:
What do you want to alert listeners to around this topic? Gene,

[00:51:56.86] spk_2:
I think one

[00:53:20.05] spk_3:
thing is not to be scared and not to get lost in not only your personal ego, which may mean for some people. Well, if we merge, I’m not gonna be a board member anymore because they’re the existing or surviving organization, has a board, and maybe they’re willing to take on a couple of us from the smaller organization. Um, but I’m I may not be part of that, but I’m not gonna let that drive my decision as to whether to merge or not. Because that’s now That would be about me, not about, you know, the organization and its mission. Um, the same thing goes with the name. So you know, often times people are, you know, deals get killed and mergers because the smaller organization or the disappearing organization is not willing to let go of the name. Um, And, yes, you could negotiate around naming. Keeping your name is a program and having some sort of of recognition on the website of the merged entity. But some people are so locked in on it, they’ll fight tooth and nail to make sure that their name is standing out as, like, part of the same merged entity’s name. So they combine both names, and it’s really clunky, and it just doesn’t really make sense. But, um, people get lost in that and start to make it a power play of, like, who could negotiate and exercise the most power in this transaction rather than what is in the best interests of our mission on both short term and long term.

[00:53:41.35] spk_0:
Okay. And again, merger, of course, being the extreme possibility for for collaboration. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um, if you feel comfortable, we can leave it there. Gene, You all right?

[00:53:44.77] spk_3:
Yeah, I’m good. I’m good.

[00:53:47.95] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Jean Takagi, find him in, uh, neo law group dot com and at G Tack and Gene talk to you in a couple weeks for the 500 show.

[00:53:56.36] spk_3:
I’m so excited for you.

[00:53:57.90] spk_0:
Thank you. Back cheese did. Thank you very much, Jeanne. So long.

[00:54:02.24] spk_3:
Okay, but

[00:55:34.44] spk_0:
next week, non profit radios. 5/100 show. It’s our 5/100 show and 10th anniversary. Live music, Lots of guests and giveaways. Send me your story. How did you get into non profit work? Hardly anyone chooses this as a career. How did you get in? Well, read the top three stories on the air. You’ll be preserved forever in our 500 show, and you’ll win a bag of Cure a coffee. Be with me next week for the 5/100 non profit radio. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant her mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz managing stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our red guy on this Music is by Scots with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for October 25, 2019: Adversaries Into Allies

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Leah Garcés: Adversaries Into Allies
It can be advantageous to work with people and causes on the other side. Leah Garcés shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book, “Grilled: Turning Adversaries into Allies to Change the Chicken Industry.” She’s also president of Mercy For Animals.




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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into my as assists if you got under my skin with the idea that you missed today’s show. Adversaries in tow allies it can be quite advantageous to work with people and causes. On the other side, Leah Gar says, shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book Grilled. Turning Adversaries Into Allies to Change the chicken Industry. She’s also president of Mercy for Animals on Tony’s Take to I’m Looking for Innovators, We’re sponsored by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com by koegler Mountains Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. I’m very pleased to welcome Lia, Gar says to the studio. She has been fighting for better food and farming systems for nearly 20 years as a leader in the animal protection movement. She oversaw international campaigns in 14 countries at the World Society for the Protection of Animals and launched compassion in world farming in the U. S. She’s been featured in The New York Times, Washington Post, Buzzfeed, Vice and other media. She’s at Lia L E A. H Underscore compassion and the organs at Mercy for Animals and mercy for animals dot org’s Welcome to Studio. I’m so glad to be here. It’s a real thing. Thank you. Thanks for coming up from Georgia, where that’s where you started. The compassionate world forming. That’s right. Us. Right. And how many years ago was that? That was about eight or nine years ago now, Okay. And you’ve been president of mercy for animals little over a year, just over a year. Congratulations on your anniversary. Yeah, um, I love congratulations on the book. It’s just it’s just out, right? It came out September 3rd. Just write about that. Okay. So sick. Sweet little 16. Tried to get it. Still feels that it is Absolutely. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, you grew up in Florida. That’s right. And you had you had a lot of creatures. Beautiful animals around. You talk a little about growing up there with a canal in your backyard and and how that inspired your life work. Really? Yeah, I had the absolute great privilege of growing up in the swamps of Florida. Many people wouldn’t think that’s a privilege, but I D’oh, yeah, you’re on backed up to the book I’ve a state park and there was a ton of wildlife when I would look out of my glass sliding door. It was like almost like a prehistoric looking place. So there were ducks and alligators and otters and Herron’s and white ibis and alters that Florida has to offer. But to me, the ones that stole my heart with the ducks and my mother had these prized flower beds. He’s in patients that, when I was little, would come up to my chest, but no one was allowed to touch these flowers. Thes were like off limits. Don’t play there or you’re dead except the mother ducks. They were the only ones, and they would waddle up when they were ready to lay their eggs, and they would pat down and fix the and arrange the flowers into a nest like shape and lay their eggs and my brother, sister and I were able to watch this all unfold from inside of our screen and porch and we would lay on our bellies and right on the other side with all of this unfolding and eventually they would hatch and we would see everything. All of the dramas and the joys and the ups and downs of duck life, right? And this, really. I mean, in my mind, growing up, there was no difference between these ducks and the dogs and cats that share homes. They had the same joys and fears, and I didn’t think anything off them. Needing protection, I thought, Absolutely, they need protection. They deserve to have life worth a life worth living. And I extended that out. Two chickens to cows, two pigs. I became vegetarian when I was about 15 years old. After seeing a pita esque kind of documentary about meat where your meat comes from, I studied zoology. I just really wanted to help animals in particular. Farmed animals have a good life since you alluded to Ah video, the pita asked video that moved your inspiration. I was going to save it for later, but for listeners who eat meat. The Mercy for Animals website has I’m not even gonna say disturbing a good gut wrenching, gut wrenching videos on cows, pigs, fish, chicken turkeys. Um, it’s ah, yeah, they’re beyond disturbing. But you need to know, I think I think we all need to know what is going on in our, uh, in our food supply. Basically, yeah, I think one of the things that mercy for animals is most known for is our undercover investigations. So, unfortunately, unlike tomatoes or onions, you can’t see very readily where the animals that end up on our plate are being raised, and that’s kept behind closed doors on purpose. So for that reason, we have to send in undercover investigators to take footage of the normal day to day practices of factory farming. And as an organization, we’ve produced over 70 investigations and you can find them on our website and they really show unfortunately, very normal things that happen every day. But they’re horrible. They’re horrible, their gut wrenching. As you said, they’re very difficult to watch. But I think it’s important, and our job is to bear witness to that and to bring that darkness out into the light so that people can be aware and make choices the match, their values. So let’s let’s bring it to the chickens that are the the the story of the entire book on Dhe. I think, for for our purposes, there’s sort of a vehicle because we want to talk about engaging with your adversaries, and you have some great stories in the book. But let’s want you, Ah, we have, like, two minutes or so before our first break. Why don’t you set the stage for us about chicken forming? Yeah, So 90% of all farmed animals are the chickens raised for meat, so that’s a bit of a shocking figure that includes that. So there’s nine billion that air raised just in this country. That’s just meat chickens, excluding all other farmed animals, and the majority of those, like 99.8% or raised behind closed doors, they are stuffed wallet, a wall in a darkened warehouse. Ah, their litter is never changed. The error is ammonia laden dust laden, but the worst thing happening to these chickens is how fast they’re made to grow through selective breeding, so they grow incredibly fast, incredibly large. They’re slaughtered it only 40 days of age, though their babies still. But there they’re obese at this stage because of the preference for the large breast meat. And they’re kind of cages. Their genetics. They grow so big, so fast, they collapse under their own weight. Their heart and lungs can’t keep up with the metabolic demand for that fast growth, and they often have heart attacks and problems. So even if the birds go beyond this 40 days, most of them would die of a heart attack before a year of age. So it’s a very cruel and unnatural process and really constitutes one of the largest causes of suffering on the planet. You make the point that if humans grew as fast as the chickens are because of this breeding, we we’d be £600 by. I think age, too, is that it could be six if we grew at the same rate, correct £600 by age to correct. OK, so that’s our That’s the setting. That’s what Leah was out to change. And that’s what the book is all about. That change that change process. So when we come back we’ll dive in further. Let’s take this first break. Wagner, CPS. They’ve got a free wagon are on November 13th. Sexual harassment learned to identify it, which is interesting because that is not always black and white. What constitutes harassment in the workplace? Learn what the law requires you to do as an employer and tips for building a strong team that works together to prevent and identify workplace harassment. That Wagner cps dot com Click Resource is than upcoming events. Let’s go back Thio adversaries into allies. Um, the first you wanted to engage you needed to engage with the other side. And listen, you just gotta buy the damn book because, you know, we, as I always say, with authors, we cannot fill. We can’t tell the whole story. There it’s There are poignant stories that we may not get to. There’s great anecdotes. There’s funny moments. There’s very touching and tender moments. So you just get the book. We’ll you know we’ll do the best we can in an hour. Thank you. Absolutely. Craig Watts. Craig is Ah ah Farmer. We’re calling for a chicken, Right? Chicken farmers don’t make sure I’m doing right. Okay. Um, I want to do more than just a white. What? Why did he Why? Why was he willing to meet with you? That is a great question. Um, so let me back up a little and say that at the time I met Craig Watts, I was desperate. So I had been, as I just revealed, that said earlier had, you know, it’s very difficult to know what’s going on inside of a chicken factory farm. And I have been trying to get footage from inside of one. Yeah, let me just what states have done to prevent investigative reports like Mercy Franz. Instead of improving conditions for the chickens, they enact laws that prevent investigators and even employees from shooting video, whether it’s explicit or undercover, right? So they another method of hiding the Legislature’s. A lot of state legislatures are involved. Unfortunately, unfortunately, including in my state, North Carolina, I noticed you cite North Carolina’s one of states, so rather improve the the the production of the lives of of the Chickens. They just hide the hide, the facts. But yeah, that’s called AG gag and right. It’s an AG gag law, and North Carolina has one, and but it didn’t have one. When I started working there, I got one just after I worked there because Craig is from North Carolina. That’s right. And I had asked companies to give me tours. I had knocked on doors. Nobody would let me. So when a journalist introduced me to Craig Watts, I had to say Yes. I was scared out of my mind as a vegan animal rights activist to go meet with a chicken factory farmer in the poorest county of rural North Carolina. But I thought, I gotta go. So pack my bags with filmmaker named Reagan. Hodge, headed to Hiss Place about five hours from Atlanta, did not know what I was getting into. I remember telling my husband like, Here’s the address. Look for me buried in the chicken litter. If I don’t come back, I might be rotting away their compost fast. So be quick. And, uh, when I showed up, you know, he let me in the door, and then we went, and I spent the 1st 5 hours with the question You just asked me in my head as he was telling me his story, like, Why is he talking to me? why in the world, because in my mind and my paradigm, my framework, he was just an evil person that did this horrible thing to chickens. And up until that point in my career, I had been angry at him, blamed him. I even had wished people like him ill. I hope he lost his job. You know, I hoped he was unemployed, so I thought in my head this was some kind of ambush, you know? But I had to do it anyway, because I was desperate to get footage, and I kind of thought I was gonna go there, get footage and get the hell out of there and, like, never come back. But as I sat there listening to his story, that fear was totally replaced by feeling ashamed that I had never thought truly about him as a human being and why he would have made the choices that he would even wished him ill. Correct. And I mean, after he told me his story, I knew why he you know, he was desperate to. He wanted out and he was trapped. And to explain that Craig, when he was in his early twenties, he wanted to stay on the land in a poor county in North Carolina, and there were no other options at the time, so tobacco had fallen out. There’s no other jobs. So when the chicken industry came to town and said, If you take out 1/4 of a $1,000,000 loan, which will arrange for you, you could be your own business man, you can stay on the land that’s five generations has been passed down and you just have to raise chickens for us. We’ll drop them off and then we’ll pick them up at the end. And every time we do that, we’ll give you a paycheck. And at first it works really well. So he would raise the chickens and they would take them and then get a paycheck. And the payoff that quarter of a $1,000,000 like a mortgage but its factory farming. So after a while, the chicken started to get sick and they died. And you don’t get paid for dead. But you make the point that a ll the feet and all the time that went into those. But I guess primarily it’s feed that goes into the dead birds. That’s all some costs. That’s all lost cost for go and propane electricity like they’re heating the houses. They’re you know, they’re paying for the loan itself, that the structure is the loan. There’s a lot of bills. So the idea is, he just should have a little bit toe feed his family at the end. But it started to not look that way. And he got toe. He paid off his loan and then within, like, a year and 1/2 for two years, the producer he was produced. It was he was he with producer deal. He was insisted on upgrades to the house. They call them houses. That’s a euphemism. There were these gross. I don’t know. Warehouses. Yeah, they’re metals. They’re bigger than sheds. They’re huge. They’re like our thing. 100? Yeah, they’re like, the size of a football football. And then, like 40 yards wide, 40 feet, 40 feet wide, 40 feet. Thank you, anyway. So then Purdue insists on upgrades. So just take out another loan and he’s back where he had been for the 12 or 15 years paying off a new mortgage on the on the upgrades s never ending. Yeah, and that’s a. That’s a subtext to the in the book is the cycle that thief you chicken producers hold the way that they hold the farmers captive, their indentured servant analogous to the way the formers are holding the chickens captive. They are captain, nothing about the chickens. I just because they’re because they’re in their own feces and it’s there is a 30,000 of them in each again house each, each one of these large houses, and they can’t walk like you. Like you were saying. They flap their wings to try to move, but they for a lot of them it’s hard to get to the food or the water. And they’re they’re festering in this in this feces concrete floor, and they get these sores on their their bottoms, right and on their bellies, is it? And they end up with these open wounds source because they’re laying in feces for 40 isn’t 40 days, 40 days, 47 in the big. In the beginning, they will be smaller in there, more mobile. But as they get into the last half of that growth period, they find it very hard to move. And what happens is because they’re all squashed together for one of the moves. It’s like shift shift shift. I imagine you see this wave if you d’oh d’oh! And so it’s this constant kind of slight shifting happening in the flock. But what’s happening is there undersides are rubbing against, Ah, hot letter. Nowthe litter itself is composting all the time, so it won by night. It’s breaking down. That’s right, I’m posting. I put a thermometer into the literate one point. It was 87 degrees. So they’re sitting on hot litter, constantly rubbing. And so at one point I picked up one of the chickens, and this would be the photo that would end up in The New York Times, and I was picked it up. You could see her underbelly was red and raw, and it was like a bed sore, you know, and that’s where a lot of infection can come in. But it’s It was warm and mushy. It was terrific. That’s Ah, that’s Chapter five is when we find that out, it’s called crossing Enemy Lines. When you do a video, your first video and you say you’re you’re knocked over, your eyes are watering your coughing. You were concerned about pulmonary problems and didn’t take some antibiotics. Take a steroid to clear my lungs because I spent a lot of time filming and in the House is on and working with Reagan to film. And I already had had an infection of some kind, you know, just like your winter cough kind of thing. And it got horrific. We had a tank taking, turning off the camera and just say you were embarrassed about what you recall. It was horrible. And but then I kept thinking, First of all, this is the chickens entire life. That’s is the only thing they ever experienced in here. And I kept thinking back to my ducks like they’re they’re lovely life out in the, you know, in the river and the swamps. And and then, by comparison, these very similar animals are living in ammonia laden, dust laden hot, you know, environments that air just unsuitable for any Centeon being. So Craig wants you to see this on, and I think one of the it’s one of the things that comes through is, you know, howto build bridges to adversaries is is trust. He learns that he can trust you you. You just articulated how you were starting to trust him, and he feels comfortable opening up. But after many hours, it’s not like he brings you on and then says, Let’s let’s start filming But you talk to him for a long time. Well, really, it was over a couple of months, you’re e mailing and, well, even we filmed. But there was no, you know, we started filming. We came back a second time. We came back 1/3 4th just to learn and be side by side with him to understand what his job was like, what was his day to day like and learn from him what the real problems were of the chicken industry. And truly, it wasn’t until you know, a couple of months after meeting in person that we decided to release the film. And that was the big trust moment because there was so much risk involved with risk for him. Because, as we’ll see in the book, the producers have have their own policies. If if the state doesn’t have a law on ag gag law, the producers have their own policies, right? So in the case of Craig, the big risk for him was losing payment, you know, losing income. And he was also so if you lost, if they decided to cancel his contract, he had no way to pay off that giant mortgage. And then the other thing is his neighbors, you know, he was afraid of being isolated. Everyone around him is growing chickens. If he goes and outs the one source of income in his county, that’s scary. That’s a brave thing to Dio. And you were under some attack too. Oh, yeah, from you know, fellow activists, Why Why are you partnering? Why are you even talking to these people? They really thought I had kind of romanticized this idea of the struggling farmer. A lot of activists kind of thought I had really been drawn in by this idea, like romanticized the rural struggle. And I just I just had to put that to one side. And I knew what I knew from talking to this human being and really seeing firsthand and hearing firsthand his struggle. So trust I think trust is ah is ah, key takeaway for us and poignant that toward the end of the book. Jim Perdue who? Purdue Craig Craig’s, Greg’s producer, talked about trust, and he says that it’s what it’s what we’ll get adversarial parties through the rough spots. Basically, I’m paraphrasing. But Jim Perdue later in the book makes the point that the value of trust, which I felt with the two of you Craig early on in the book yeah, it’s all about trust in You know, Craig and I came out with a video and it had a 1,000,000 views in 24 hours. It was insane. We never expected some that kind of impact. And it was a roller coaster for six months after that, and and Purdue who we were exposing as not being honest with customers. They had a label that said Humanely raised right and we were saying, This is not what customers think of when they see those words. We expose that and I think the very good story of you in the book by what We can’t go into it. But you talking to the butcher in a grocery store, quizzing humanely raised. You know you’re not satisfied with your digging deeper. What humanely raised me. What does this mean? That was a launching point for you Get the book. Get the book. You’ll read the story. Thank you. That is a good story. Yeah, well, I’ll tell real quick that I kind of was it a Kroger with my kids shopping? And this is where I first spotted this label which started this whole provoc deliver story. Oh, bythe tell this one. Go ahead. You’re well, I just I was sitting there like looking at the meat manager like looking at the meat. You know, I’ll which I as a vegan is weird. My kids were looking at me like, What are you doing, Mom? But I was looking. I’m like, What is? This is pretty green Package. Looks like it’s you know what people want Organic e looking green around. You’ve seen it right? It’s on three earthy Look, I asked to meet manager, and he got so annoyed with my questions, he ended up dragging the box back from the back that I don’t know, just look at it. And that’s where I figured out that because it had a Purdue label want it, then that’s when I called customer service and ever, and that’s how I found, you know, knew what Craig was doing and you know, later weeks with the Jim Perdue connection. They stonewalled me for about a year they would not produce, would not have a conversation. They were very angry about what happened and very defensive in the in the initial stages. But then about a year later, after we came out with the video, I was reading The New York Times and there was an article about Purdue moving away from antibiotics and right at the very end there was a quote from Jim Perdue that said, We need happier birds and I was like, What is that? That has nothing to do with antibiotics. Why did he say that? I got very excited. I wrote to their PR person and I said, Look, can we try again? Like I read this, I can see you’re thinking about it and I see you’re looking into it. And to my surprise, they did answer that email. And this began a dialogue which led to speaking to the executives and writing the first animal care policy, addressing some of the very things I criticize them for not doing like putting some windows for natural light, giving the birds more space and in Richmond’s and things like that, and we continue tohave that dialogue, and they’ve made a lot of progress to their credit, you see, and you see that progress through the book? Um, another. Another important point I think about that you bring out about bridging making relationships with adversaries is you say you gotta walk a mile in his or her shoes. Let’s talk about that and how it relates to Ah, like you and Craig and Jim Perdue walk a mile in their shoes. Yeah, I think from when I started off. Like I said, I wished people like Craig Ill. And then when I sat down with him and began toe, really understand his hardships and the choices he made. This really changed the problem for me and then therefore changed the solutions that needed to be created in order to end factory farming. And one of those key things was basically job options in the farming community in rural areas like North Carolina and walking thinking of like walking a mile in their shoes. I started to change the way I was talking to him, and instead of thinking, how can I put Craig out of a business. I started to think, How can I create a new business opportunity for him? A new farming, you know, type of things. So we’re now mercy for animals is about to launch a new project precisely around that. Looking at how to transform farmers from being chicken farmers into, say, hemp farmers or which and CBD makes a lot more money than chicken, I can tell you so These are the kinds of things I started to change. Change, change the problem in my mind. So it changed the solutions, and I think that was really important. They’re too poignant moments that I thought related to both trust and walk a mile in their shoes. You were concerned about Craig’s soul as he’s day after day, spending 12 15 hours calling dead chickens. You have to listen. You have to read about how they do that through the through the warehouses and, um and what? That what? What? That process killing many a day. What that does to his soul. You were concerned about his soul, and then the other is when Jim Perdue asks about how your newly adopted daughter is doing, and I thought, you know that there. She’s concerned about Craig, the farmer. Who was she? A Bush Tilda. And Jim Perdue, of all people, is asking you, You know something personal and intimate about about your about your life, And I thought, That’s an example of trust and walk in their shoes and those connections air, you know, remind you there’s there’s a human being behind behind. There is a human being in front of you. And, you know, connecting with them takes some of the walls down that we we artificially create a lot of the times, and I think that’s really important. And there’s another and I’ll tell another story. I’m not to give them all away, but later your book. It’s your income stream. I’m doing the best I can. Well, uh, just for so your listeners know all the income goes thio compassionate world farming for the book. So if you want to help end this by the book and you can give it a CZ gifts to your friend holidays. So, um, so you know, one of the chicken producers we worked with later on I can’t name them because I don’t want to be named, but we went to visit them, and we were the first advocates to go talk to them is where Mike work-life and they invited us and is the first time. And as my co worker Rachel Dress Ken and I walked in the door, we could see people like peeking over the cubicles and whatnot, and we sat down. I pulled out my presentation. The guy was really negative. He had his arms folded and you could tell he was uncomfortable. And then after my laptop pulled up, my desktop picture came up and it was of my family. And he saw my daughter, who clearly looks different. She has coffee, color, skin and ringlets, and and he said, Is that your kid? And I said, Yeah, that’s my daughter just got back from adopting her and it’s been tough. And I was like babbling on an emotional and you know, And and he said, Oh, well, I have two adopted kids and, like from that moment on, the walls came down. We started talking about the ups and downs of raising kids, and it turned out his had a foster care that he did with his wife ministry and in those moments, the trust and the humanization of each other. And we were It was really built and were able to make so much more progress because of that. And we remain really able to talk despite the differences, which makes it possible to make so much more progress. I thought humanize, don’t demonize. That’s a great and then you so that you’re getting to another one that I was I was gonna get you But, um, finding common ground and that common ground is not necessarily related to the subject matter you’re talking about. In this case, it was adoption and foster care. You found common ground totally unrelated to the subject. You were you were convening over, right? We could say more about if you want me to take another break. Um, yes, 61%. 61% of Cougar Mountain Software’s customers stay with them for more than 16 years. That’s fabulous. Retention koegler Mountain software. It’s made for non-profits. It includes fraud prevention, fund accounting, Grant and Doner management. Phenomenal support, which you’ve heard testimonials about, and they have a free 60 day trial. You will find that on the listener landing page at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain last time for Tony’s Take two. I’m looking for innovators if you are approaching something unconventionally and succeeding at it, by the way, that that part’s important. Or maybe you know, a colleague or friend or client who works differently and is succeeding. I’m hosting an Innovator’s Siri’s early next year, first quarter of 2020 and I would like to talk to innovators, people doing something differently and succeeding at it. Leah would qualify, but her book came out earlier, So I very graciously I’ll, uh, say, uh, conceded Thio, meeting with talking to her earlier rather than making her wait until the first quarter of 2020. Um, so anybody similar? Get me Tony at tony martignetti dot com Or use the contact page on tony martignetti dot com and you don’t not do not have to have written a book Azaleas. But just doing something different and doing it well. And that is Tony. Stick to Let’s do the live listener love, which is abundant. Well, it’s abundant. Uh, let’s start abroad. MADRID, Spain Buenos Star Days Young son Korea comes, uh, sorry, sir Korea Annual haserot comes a ham Nida Saigon, Vietnam Berlin, Germany Guten tog Um Seoul, South Korea Khartoum, Sudan Thank you for being with us. Sudan. I don’t think you have before. That’s wonderful. Live love Out to Sudan, Singapore, Tijuana, Mexico Buena Star Days, Minsk in Belarus, Londrina, Brazil I may have pronounced it wrong, but I apologize. I apologize for that. But the live love goes out to Brazil. So glad you’re with us. Uncle A turkey. It’s remarkable. Uh, really. Woodbridge, Ontario in Canada and Munich, Germany. Guten tag to Ah, Munich as well and then bring it home. Tampa, Florida New York, New York. Multiple as always. Thank you. Thank you not to take New York for granted. New York City multiple listeners. Special live love after New York, New York. Thank you for that. Broomfield. Colorado is with us, and so is Rockville Center, New York. I have good friends. Rockville Centre. There’s a good steak house there, read by the train. What’s the name of that? Oh, that’s a bad subject. Sorry, Leah. Gar says that Steakhouse sucks. It’s right by the train station in Rockville Center, Fairfield, Connecticut. Miami, Florida, Little Falls, New Jersey. Wow. In New Jersey, live love out to New Jersey and, of course, all our live listeners. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. And we have to do, of course. And I have to send the podcast pleasantries because that’s where the vast majority of our our lives, our listeners aren’t. Despite this plethora of live listeners, still the vast majority podcast. That’s where the over 13,000 r and I thank you for being with us pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Thank you, Leah. That indulgence. Um, hide everyone everywhere. That’s amazing. That is, it could be it could very well be the subject. You could very well be. You could very well be the subject, but that’s a lot of live listeners. Oh, but I know some people in Tampa and Madrid, so maybe it’s, you know, perhaps, um, just get the book. If you get the bucket’s, you’ll have the same personal conversation. We just came out of the audio. So Bloomsbury just put the audio book out, too. Okay, that’s helpful. Okay. Are you there? Are you the reader? No. Okay, go. The Springsteen seems to be very popular among sustainers Now, you like it would take a long time. I’m trying to read it out loud to my nine year olds right now, and we’re only about halfway through. We read a couple pages tonight, but it takes a long time to read it out loud, I think. Um, So we were talking about Yeah, the common ground. You want to say anything more about common ground than, uh than I attempted? I think you did a good job. There’s a lot of stories in the book that, um, sort of layout how that’s possible to start this conversation’s and search for that common counting ground and how that really changes the atmosphere of that you’re trying to create solutions in and how important that is. Okay, Okay, um, another poignant story when, uh, Mike Weaver again find out who these characters are. He agrees to introduce you to another farmer named Eric Eric Hedrick, who was the He was the largest West Virginia grower. Eric was a grower for Pilgrim’s Pride, which I immediately thought should be Pilgrim. Shame Way should start a website immediately. All those campaigners out there by up pilgrim Shame shame dot should be dot or gore dot com Mike Weaver, where his motivations similar Thio introducing you to, uh, Eric similar to Craig’s. So I think everybody’s different but similar in that he was. He was very passionate about how unjust the system is for farmers. So he too, while he was better off financially than Craig. He had really taken it upon himself to be a farmer activist and really try to confront Pilgrim’s pride and get them to change their contract system and had failed, as as Craig Craig Craig had raised objections to Purdue. Yes, and fell on deaf ears. Correct? Yes. And in West Virginia, where these two farmers are still, there was a horrific disease, and this disease had caught called gangrenous dermatitis. Gangrenous dermatitis. Yes, where it’s basically like gangrene, where it’s a bacteria that eats the birds from the inside out very quickly at the end of their sort of the flock cycle, which is particularly city for the farmers because they’ve got all the feed and other resources invested, and so in near the end, like in Week six, they’re dying, and they don’t get paid for that, right? So that’s, you know, money out of their pocket. And it’s also a horrific way for the birds to go and this disease they had been trying to get rid of and there seemed to be no end to it. And pilgrims was not helping and not helping the farmers, right? They wouldn’t provide antibiotics that they won’t intervene. They wouldn’t intervene. So this was causing the particular farmer. You just mentioned Eric and his wife, Rachel, to head towards bankruptcy. And that was a horrific situation for them. I have three daughters and they didn’t know what they were going to dio. And he was very heavily invested. He had 12 houses, right? And didn’t Craig have what three or four had four. Mike had to. That’s more typical. Well, this guy Eric had Eric had 12. Yeah. Yeah, it was a big Grauer. 12 times 30,000 per house. Things like 360,000. Yes, chickens at a time. Exactly. And it was an overwhelming task for him so that when he told them, Look, I’ve got these birds, They’re dying. They’re Pilgrim’s. Pride’s answer was so hire more people to pick up the dead birds faster. So the companies response to we have, like a serious illness, is pick up the corpses faster, which was ridiculous, purely a commodity. Drank to the producers that things have changed. I guess there’s more humanity in it now. Somewhat, it’s getting its Pilgrim’s has done nothing xero. They’ve made no commitment. That’s why you want him. Shame. Credit you with the campaign afterwards. Pilgrim’s has not moved. Some have, and we’ll talk. We’ll get a chance to talk about other Other industries have changed restaurants, et cetera, foods to food outlets, etcetera. But at this time, there was no humanity in it at all was purely, ah, a tradable commodity. Right, right, right. Um, so you know, this is it’s It’s interesting that, you know, these farmers want just they they want to be heard. They want a voice and the companies that they’ve been appealing to A Z said, uh, death falling on deaf ears. But if they’re just people who want to be heard and some of them, I guess they’re more motivated by the concern for the for the birds and some it sounds like Eric more motivated by their own personal financial straits, that they’re that they’re tied, it constrained into. But in the end, they just all want a voice. Yeah, yeah, and I mean the thing with factory farming of chickens is it has such a detrimental impact on so many parts of our world. So whether you are concerned about human health and the disease that comes in and out onto our plate from these farms, or about workers, justice or we haven’t even discussed in my book doesn’t really go into the slaughterhouses and the injustice around the workers there, which are mostly Latino axe and often treated very poorly, especially the women. Or you’re concerned about the animals in the just inherent abuse in the system or the environments in the pollution that comes from it. There’s just so many negative parts, and that’s why I say it’s the biggest cause of suffering on the planet. It really touches on so much of our life. So whatever you care about you can you know, whatever is your passion, you’re centered thing. You confined that connection, and for me, that was This is a journey and discovering it’s not because for me I come from it primarily because I care about the animals. But in meeting these farmers, I started to really open my scope up. Understand this this is a much bigger issue, and there are more allies I could have We could march together against this and that would be so much more powerful. And that was one of my takeaway studio, uh, subsumed in everything we’re saying, If you can give your adversaries a voice, if they don’t have a voice, maybe you can support each other in creating that right? And you know, that’s that. I still in learning that lesson, I’m still finding those, um, were we joined, you know, two forces and become more powerful as a result to to get to the same end. You talk about giving the other side of a path to winning on. That reminded me of things I’ve heard in politics when you know which are back when things were more normal, way cared about foreign nations and the sensitive sense of sensitivities and sensibilities of foreign leaders. You know, I would hear in politics, you know, give them a path to success. But in the book, you say you give the other side of path to winning. But I again another takeaway for helping build bridges. Let’s talk about that. Yeah, and I mean, that applies to the farmers, but also applied to these companies that were trying to change where we’re saying, Can you move away from this horrific, unsustainable, cruel system into something else? And we really began to explore plant based alternatives, and you might think that’s insane to suggest, like chicken companies would produce, you know, soy based products or pea protein. But they are, And this was, sir changing this mentality of. We’re not trying to put Purdue out of business. We’re trying to help them evolve into a different business or Tyson evolve into a different business. And these That’s where we start to build this other path. When there we think there’s no way forward. You kind of really have to be creative and think, How can I help their business model involved into something else? And before you know you have Burger King selling impossible burgers all over the country, it’s happening. It’s happening. And that’s how we evolve into a different business. Um, we just have about two more minutes for before our final break Global Animal partnership. I thought that was an example of a path toward winning for our adversaries. Talk a little about yeah, global animal partnership is a certain animal welfare certification. You can look it up. So if you ever been in whole foods, you’ll see numbers on the meat one through five. So that is basically five is totally pasture raised, slaughtered on farm. And the animals are living the most natural life they could in a commercial setting. And one is better than industry, but and no cages, no crates and that kind of thing, but not outside. So you have this spectrum and where before we didn’t have this very clear. Ah, certification for the animals. This has evolved in the last 10 years or so as one of the very clear certifications where you can say, I know exactly where my meets coming from exactly how the animal was raised. And I can put my my kind of money to my values and decide which one through five I’m comfortable with and then look for them in the supermarket, a path toward a path toward winning. And that was a partnership with the worked with CEO of Whole Foods, right? John Mackey? Yes. All right, Let’s take our last break. Turn to communications PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories. So simple. But they know it. They the pros, all the while building support for the work that you do. They are into media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and brand strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to dot CEO. And thankfully, we’ve got butt loads more time for, ah, be a gar says and adversaries into allies. Oh, and fast. I feel like going fast. I’m glad it’s a good That’s a good sign. Is it? Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, for sure. Okay, Um, what do you do that start out? What do you want to talk about? I feel like I’m dominating, but I’m supposed to move things along because we do have an hour constraint. I wouldn’t want to talk about my book, so that’s great. We’re doing well. Wait. What do you want to talk about in the book? Think up something. What do you do? You love what? I love story or a story? A story or something? I don’t know. Uh, I guess you know, one of the things that really changed Another part that changed my career path is having kids and I think a lot of people can relate to this. And I hear a lot of advocates say this to our people. Work in the non-profits space. There’s a some point in your life when you you say, like, I really want to make a difference now and I really want to focus on on delivering my values into the world and for me that was when my first son was born. So I had been working in non-profit already, but had been working on all animals. And it was only after my son Ruben was born that I just sort of looked at him and I thought, Okay, like all my heart is in this one child and without a doubt in 18 years he’s gonna leave. So if when I’m working and I’m not with him, I have got to be ruthless with my time and my impact, and that really switched to really focus on farmed animals because farmed animals are the most impacted of any of the animals on our planet that we try to help. So way way overshadows dogs and cats, which is where the majority of our philanthropic dollar goes to. In the end, the United States Animal Welfare Act formed. Animals are excluded right so far, and there’s Animal Welfare Act. All farmed animals are excluded from that. Then we have the Humane Slaughter Methods Act, which excludes which is supposed to be that animals were rendered unconscious before the knife hits their throat. But all chickens are excluded and Fisher excluded. And that’s basically all the animals that we killed. You said 99 98% of the animals we kill our and not only that, but unfortunately that under the current administration they have made slaughter extremely unsafe and fast. So it used to be, if you can imagine this about 100 and it was permitted 125 birds per minute in the slaughter plants, and they just changed that for 100 and 75 birds a minute. That’s three a second. Can you even imagine that? Not only that, but they’ve removed the policing by the USDA fromthe slaughterhouses, and they’re allowing the companies to police themselves, self certified, basically, yeah, and that’s really there’s very clear evidence that results in more health safety issues and you know So for me, it’s just I cannot sort of I can’t emphasize enough how important the problem of helping farmed animal is and on, and it’s the main focus of my life. And you were talking about your son, your son, your first son’s birth. Yeah, that really his birth kind of was Ah ha moment. A lightbulb moment was like, You know, time’s a wasting like I have to focus and if I’m away from him, it better before good reason. And that really helped me to focus something you say that that I thought was a very empathic moment. It’s Earth’s early on. I’m quoting you, Anyone can end up on the wrong path despite the best of intentions that has you tell it in your duck story. Don’t tell that one relates to the relief to the docks. He she she helps the ducks. Leave it at that. You got to get the book to read the story, but But I thought that was very empathic, that I mean that related to all the farmers that that worked with you. They had good intentions. Craig wanted Toa send his kids to college and make a find a living to do that and stay on his his five generation A family land in southern North Carolina. Great intentions, but can end up on the wrong path. That was very empathic statement. Thank you for picking up on that, That I wasn’t sure if everybody would. It was a small sentence in there, but it was meant to be very symbolic because that is the limbs we have to go in. And, you know, uh, the part you know about someone’s life is like is, you know, the a tiny fraction of what their whole life is, And you have to go in realizing there’s so much more to this person in their story, and you won’t have any clue what it is. And so you can. They could have started off this journey thinking the things you said like they want to pay for college. You want to stay on the land, they want to pay their employees, They wanna, you know, by a you know, college fund, or help a charity or do a ministry for foster care. Who knows? But it could have been unintentional bad consequences, And that happens a lot in our world, and it’s about help. It’s not about blaming, shaming and pushing people into a corner when they made those choices, but really trying to find the pathway out for them that that it leave the door open for them to get out of there. That’s beautiful. Segue, because I was thinking next again, building bridges to adversaries. Um, I don’t know if it’s Jim Produce says that. Or, you know, I think you say this. No, no change can be achieved without the opponent’s engagement on I think it comes to the context of your working with working with Jim Perdue, but that, you know, that’s for the for the extreme extremist activist who will never talk to the other side. You realize now you’ve come to light that that’s an enormous mistake, right? And in my case, I’m not in charge of a single chicken. I have no access, so the only way I can access the animals I’m trying to help is through either the farmer of the company. So I have to enter their space. I have to understand their problems, their dilemmas, and try to build solutions from that space, which is very uncomfortable and it’s messy and it’s difficult, but you have to. We don’t really make progress by only talking to people who agree with us. That’s not the place. You make product enormously important. And you’re right. You don’t You don’t control a single chicken. Yeah, um, very impact that. You mean the whole book is really starting with the ducks in the backyard? Very. It’s a very empathic story, I think. Um, who else was, uh Well, it’s where and ask you about some people. Jim Perdue. How did how did he eventually come around? Well, you know, the first time I met him, I don’t know. I was gonna meet. Okay? You had said he had quote. We need happier chickens. You engaged with him? Would you engage with the company? And he responded. That’s right. I’m sorry. Yeah, we talked about that. Um, but then you end up doing panels with him sitting next to him being interviewed. Yes. What was that like? Terrifying. You talk about being backstage with him, but he says he trusts you. He looks you in the eye and says, I trust you. But first he said, I feel like a lamb being led to slaughter. Many said, Trust you. So it was the humane. I guess he was hoping I wouldn’t slaughter him. It would be a humane slaughter. He would be unconference. State, I guess. Yeah, it was terrifying. And he and his wife, Jan, came over to London to speak at a conference called the Extinction Conference, held by Compassionate World Farming. Looking at the connection of factory farming with causing so many species to go extinct and the impact on our planet. And he came to speak and talk about working with each other and how difficult that was. And we were interviewed by Maren McKenna, who is a great journalist. She wrote the book called My Gosh Big Chicken and and it was terrifying. But again, you know, he was very honest, and I think both of us. I have lost some friends and becoming friends in the process. But we both can’t resist the pathway to of forging this better way, and I I think eventually others will follow this way, and the dominoes have started to fall. I think you have a chapter, a section called the Dominant of Falling Down or something related to over 200 companies have agreed to a new policy on on chickens that are raised for meat. And these air across their producers, their food service companies, groceries, restaurants like Chipotle Panera. No groceries yet sadly. But we have groceries. No groceries. We had hope. Who’s also holds duitz, of course. Sorry. Whole fits. I forgot. I was thinking, like, giant ones like Wal Mart, which I still were still working on, but, um, find common ground. Trust them. Give them a path toward winning. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so subway and Burger King, for example, have agreed Thio ah, to change their some of their conditions. So including giving the birds more space. A better breed that causes less suffering, better slaughter conditions that render the animals unconscious before they’re shackled. So lots of these progress is being made. And Purdue did lead the way by creating um by saying they would provide the chickens at this hyre welfare certification. Not sort of occasion, but standard. And that’s, you know, I think, um, proof that sometimes you have to step out in front and you have to do these uncomfortable, messy and difficult things and conversations, but others will follow. If you could be brave enough to do that, I read the book. The evidence is abundant that that’s that’s the case. Let’s just have a few minutes before we wrap up. Let’s talk a little bit. So where you mentioned your Burger King? I’m seeing a lot of press, including investment. Investment advice around Impossible Burger. What’s the other one Beyond? Beyond Beyond Burger, Right Beyond Beyond Beyond Meet Impossible Burger and and you wrap up with well near wrap up with regenerative organics. So so organic alone on chicken Is not organic is not synonymous with humanely raised the way we’re talking about. It’s not synonymous with pastor raises. It’s Ray’s. Tow the food right, the right thing. That means the feed has been raised without pesticide. You have to see you realize you have to see pasture raised or the guest of five on the gap or look for plant based alternatives. And I think that’s a really what’s really important. Growing trends like, for example, where I live in Atlanta, we have this crazy thing happened a month ago, which was the K f C trialled beyond chicken nuggets in Atlanta and it was insane. So it was one day trial in Atlanta and I went at 10 o’clock. We did some filming, and when I got there at 10 o’clock, there was traffic stopped in all directions. They had painted the KFC green. This is KFC. Mind you, KFC, Right? And there was you Thought they were giving out, like Beyonce tickets for free, inside or something. It was really insane. And they sold out in five hours. They said they were supposed to have two weeks worth of beyond chicken. So I think two weeks correct gave it away and 1/2 a day. They give it away that were coming to buy it, and it was five hours. And it just shows this, like, insane demand for plant based alternatives. Because people are like, I don’t I don’t want to eat this much meat. I don’t want to eat this meat. I don’t know where it comes from, but it comes from a plant. I can trust that. So there’s a real swing of these companies like KFC. On the way here I saw Duncan Donuts commercial showing beyond sausage in their breakfast patties. Now, so there’s a real trend in my book talks about that in the last chapter towards that plant based alternatives. And we just have a minute left. Regenerative organics. We can eat meat that is not raised for slaughter. You got a minute? Oh, that’s called. That’s not regenerative representative organ. That’s labbate based meat. So So. Labbate bases. Where is that what you’re talking about? Okay, labbate, get the book. Just going about regenerative Organic. Don’t listen to the chapter on regenerate but faster on lab, where you take a single cell from a feller, you grow it in a brewery kind of thing, and then you grow the burger that way, and this is really happening. And I tried duck of all things that that really brings it back to the beginning. And I thought, This is the future. And there’s more people that have been on, you know, been up in space that have tried clean meat as it’s called at this stage. But I felt so lucky, and I really felt I was peering into the future of a place where no animal has ever slaughtered. And no, no animal ever suffers in order to produce army awesome that doesn’t bring it full circle. She’s Leah, Gar says J R. C E. With an accent s, you’ll find her at Lia. Underscore compassion. The organization is at mercy for animals and mercy for animals dot or GE, lugthart says. Thank you so much for sharing. You Get the book, for God’s sake. Responsible. Oh no. Next week. Kickstarter Yes, Next week we have KICKSTARTER cofounder Yancey Strickler with his new book, This Could Be Our Future is his manifesto. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com by Coca Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Leibowitz is here is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Steiner. Brooklyn’s Thank you for that information. Scotty, be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day. Mmm. 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