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Nonprofit Radio for July 10, 2020: Digital Accessibility & Inclusive Design

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My Guests:

Laura Patch: Digital Accessibility
How to make your digital products more accessible. Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text, screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. (Part of our 20NTC coverage)






Nic Steenhout: Inclusive Design
Nic Steenhout says forget upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take, the point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. (Also part of our 20NTC coverage)





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[00:01:55.54] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with lateral epic condo leitess if you strained our relationship with the idea that you missed today’s show. Digital Accessibility. How do you make your digital products more accessible? Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. This is part of our 20 NTC coverage. Also inclusive design. Nick Steen How says Forget about upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take. The point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. This is also part of our 20 NTC coverage on Tony’s Take two Dismantling racism were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non profits? Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Here is digital accessibility. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit technology conference. We were supposed to be in Baltimore. The conference was canceled, but we are persevering, virtually irrespective. Our coverage of 20 NTC is sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund.

[00:02:20.44] spk_0:
Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? You can go to tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial.

[00:02:32.04] spk_1:
My guess now is Laura Patch. She is digital project manager for the Sierra Club. Ah, Laura. Welcome.

[00:02:33.74] spk_2:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:35.39] spk_0:
Uh, pleasure. I’m glad this worked out. And, uh, I know you’re well and safe and glad. Glad to hear that.

[00:02:41.64] spk_2:

[00:02:54.94] spk_1:
Your ah topic is everyday accessibility. How everyone can make digital products more accessible? Why is this important for all for all

[00:02:55.93] spk_0:
nonprofits, irrespective of what proportion you think your users are. Your visitors are that with with disabilities.

[00:04:03.24] spk_2:
Um, So there is definitely a portion of the population that has permanent disabilities that we should be concerned with. They have high buying power. Um, disposable income that will on make them want to donate to your lovely non profit. And by having accessible, uh, digital products, you make sure that they can participate in your mission, but awesome. Their situational disabilities. If you think about the last time you took your cell phone out and it was great and funny and you couldn’t see your screen back, actually an acceptability issue. And if you focus on creating high contrast images like you would for somebody who has color vision problems, then you’re benefiting all the people using your website on their phone in break fun. So thinking about this situation, all ones will help your organization as well.

[00:04:04.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Thank you. I want people to understand that I’ve had NTC guests say that. I don’t know. It was a couple of years ago, since since we’ve covered accessibility, but yeah. Thank you. Um,

[00:04:30.74] spk_1:
there’s a little pause in the video. Um, So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna pause the recording. I’m gonna ask you to leave the meeting and come back in. Okay? I’m gonna pause now. All right, let’s see if

[00:04:31.92] spk_0:
this works a little better. Maybe not so much video hesitation. Um, so this is, uh you’re covering every digital product you say. Not just This is not just for websites.

[00:04:45.04] spk_2:
Correct? In my presentation, I talk about how to make your documents, your slides and a data visualisation more accessible.

[00:04:54.84] spk_0:
Okay, um, should we, uh, should we start with documents that Okay,

[00:05:23.84] spk_2:
Yeah, but, um, So one of the things that I suggest is to make sure that you use the actual heading setting whether you’re using Microsoft Word Google docks, whatever your platform is, um, this is important, because if you take text and inject, change the format of it, then screen readers can’t tell somebody that right? Whereas if you use heading one heading two heading three, a screenwriter will include that and what it reads to the person so it helps them navigate through your content.

[00:05:39.50] spk_0:
Uh, okay. I don’t think many people are doing that. I think most people just radio heading and then boldface it.

[00:05:49.94] spk_2:
Exactly. Yeah. You really want to take the time, Teoh Change it so it’s heading, and you can actually adapt style so that once you apply heading one, all of your heading ones have that style. It’s really actually easier work.

[00:06:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Right. Then you rather than you have to do it manually. Ok? Um okay. What else? What else? For documents.

[00:06:17.54] spk_2:
Um, this is one that people also frequently forget. We’re doing a better job on websites, but all images should have alternative text. Uh, that should be a no longer than two seconds is preferably even shorter than two sentences. It should describe what’s happening in the image without using words like image of photo of, um, and this again also helps with screen readers. It helps if the images loading slowly as well. So if you have poor Internet connection, you’re again on your cell phone. With no cell service, you can still tell what is conveyed in a image by the alternative text. Okay,

[00:06:49.11] spk_0:
why do you say, why do you not use the language photo of our image over something like that?

[00:06:55.94] spk_2:
Because the screen reader will tell people that it will say image, and then it’ll tell your alternative text so it’s repetitive to keep saying it. Describe what people might feed.

[00:07:10.17] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, Anything else with with images?

[00:07:12.54] spk_2:
No, not.

[00:07:14.04] spk_1:
Do you have to be concerned about color, color of our images or anything like that?

[00:07:30.34] spk_2:
If you’re gonna put text over the image than yes, you want to make sure that your image background in that text have Ah, High column, cross radio. There’s some places on the Internet You can check to make sure that that’s working well, but basically you want toe have either a light background with dark text or vice versa on. And if you can’t achieve that because a lot of things were happening in the image than doing some sort of floating background behind your text with playing around with capacity. I’m concerns that will work while too.

[00:08:05.43] spk_0:
OK, I’m sorry. What do you mean, capacity was the opacity. Opacity? Yes. Okay, I’ve seen that. All right, Opacity, SS. I’m trainable. Alright? Opacity, Of course. All right. Um, yeah. More documents, Sure. Sure.

[00:08:10.31] spk_2:
Yeah. So those are some good tips for documents? Um,

[00:08:14.85] spk_0:
was that it? Is that it for documents? Okay. Okay. Um, where should we go? Uh, uh, data visualization, right?

[00:08:24.14] spk_2:
Yeah. Expands more on that color stuff that we were just talking about. Where you go, you have high contrast colors. Um, you do have colors, like, Say, you have a graph that has five color. So it becomes really difficult to make sure that every single one of those colors have five contrasts. You want to add pattern.

[00:09:08.14] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As changes to paycheck protection program Loan forgiveness There have been many, but none this week. Congress skipped a week. Wegner hasn’t up to date free wagon. Or that explains the latest go to wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource Is and recorded events. Now back to digital accessibility with Laura Patch.

[00:09:42.04] spk_2:
So I have some visuals for this in my presentation. So let me see if I can describe it Well, um, imagine that you’re looking at a map of route map of buses, right, and you have five routes and there’s purple, blue, green, yellow, red. And if those arrows for the route across each other and you can’t tell the difference between purple and blue, you can’t tell where the route goes. But if you add a pattern to the color saying one of them is a stolid line and one of them is a dotted line, then you can continue to follow the path, even if you can’t tell the difference between those two colors.

[00:09:54.94] spk_0:
Okay, okay, good, Yeah,

[00:10:16.44] spk_2:
yeah, On this works in grafs as well. If you have a pie chart, my yourself makes this really easy. But you can do it in other programs where you can add patterns to your wedges. So do a light color in the background. And then do you hired darker color of the same shade, right? So it could be like blue with blue polka dots on top of it so that they can tell that high fly slice goes to whatever your label is on the side.

[00:10:30.09] spk_0:
Okay? And if you don’t do this, what is it? The problem that all the colors are gonna look similar to someone who has accessibility issues?

[00:10:39.64] spk_2:
Yes. If you can’t see colors than they can’t tell what high slice goes toe. What data point?

[00:11:05.96] spk_0:
Ok, um, same thing with bar charts. Is there anything same would apply to bar charges? Most pie charts? Um, graphs. You talked about lines? That’s the analogy. Analogy. There is the map. Right line. Line. Line line graphs. Okay, Okay. Yeah.

[00:11:31.99] spk_2:
The thing to think about right is that accessibility guidelines say you can’t use color alone to convey a meaning. So when you’re looking at graphs, you want to make sure that somebody can tell like if they can’t tell the difference between colors, they can still understand the information you’re trying to convey. Um, so another way to think about it is like if you’re looking at pins on maps, right, they might have different colors for restaurants. First days, uh, community service places, but you can’t tell the difference between those two colors. That doesn’t really help you if you add an icon to that pin suddenly like the icon of a fork tells you. But that’s an eatery versus just the color of the pen.

[00:11:52.74] spk_1:
Ah, I see. And then how will a reader interpret that?

[00:11:58.04] spk_2:
That’s an excellent question, usually aboard, to make sure that there is data labels as well. So label that as restaurant versus just the information.

[00:12:23.86] spk_0:
Okay, okay, I could see a mean a map. I’m just tryingto understand how a screen reader interprets, um, a map like that Local A. T M’s or gas stations. It can do

[00:12:59.08] spk_2:
that. Uh, maps. There were some of the most difficult things to make Fully accessible, said. There’s basically and if especially for a non developer person, it’s very difficult because there’s things you can put into the code of amount toe, give things, labels. Um, so most of the time If you’re thinking about accessibility from a non developer standpoint, you’re gonna be thinking about the visual ramifications. So those I Hans in your, um, in your pens, I always having a list of the information instead of just the map. Visual is really helpful to because the screen reader can read the list as opposed to the not itself.

[00:13:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, that makes sense. I was wondering if you’ve, uh, well, yeah, it wouldn’t make sense for the for people who don’t have a disability toe leave out a map and just do a list. But actually, so have both. Okay, the screen reader could make sense of the list. OK, OK. OK, um, anything else about data visualization?

[00:13:32.54] spk_2:
No, I think those are the key points for developers.

[00:13:38.74] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um what else? Uh, what what

[00:13:40.99] spk_1:
was the other category? You had

[00:13:42.84] spk_2:
a slides.

[00:13:44.44] spk_0:
Oh, for slides. Okay, Power point or Google slides. Okay.

[00:14:42.64] spk_2:
Um, so the same thing. Kind of occurrence for slides as it does for images and documents. You want to make sure you have that alternative text. Um, but the thing that’s unique about slides is that you want to make sure you’re paying attention to the order items are on. Um, if somebody can’t use a mouse, we’ll use the tab button on their keyboard. Um, and the order that your items on your slide are is the order that this screen reader will also like, read your side through. Right. So an easy way to test how a screen reader is gonna read your content to someone is to use that tab button and navigate as if you don’t have a mouse. Um, So, for example, if you want your slide title to be read first, you want to make sure that the first tab is that and I’ve seen a lot of slides where it will be the image, footer, slide content and then title. And you’re like, Well, this would make no sense it was going to be in that order. How

[00:15:00.60] spk_1:
do you change

[00:15:07.13] spk_0:
it? Is that the sequence with which you put them on the on the template slide as you’re making it? Have you control with the tab sequences?

[00:15:11.46] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s the default way. Feel like as you add things, that will be the order, but you can right click on any item on your slide and send it to the back. Send it to the front. Defended forward. Backwards. So you just want to play around with that until it’s the right order that you want.

[00:15:29.93] spk_1:
Oh, that’s what that

[00:15:30.75] spk_0:
thing means. Send forwards finback. Okay, okay.

[00:15:45.74] spk_2:
That can get a little tricky for designers, because it’ll be like putting Bill block certain things with another square or some things that you do have to pay attention. Tilly, if you’re destroying what is visually you showing as well. But for the most part, you want to make sure that cat order makes us

[00:16:09.44] spk_0:
okay. Okay? And and that applies, um, for either Google slides or Power Point. You just right. Click on some right click on an item, and that’s how you can set the sequence. Okay. Okay. Um, anything else slides? Slides wise.

[00:16:13.49] spk_2:
No, that’s right. For slides.

[00:16:24.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, should we should we say anything more about color choices overall? Well, we’re

[00:16:26.43] spk_2:
okay. There’s Cem programs that you can check your contrast levels, um, as well as develop a color palette that it’s accessible. Um, so if your organization hasn’t done much in accessibility, you might want to talk to your design team just toe. Tweak some of those colors to make sure that their high contrast I see our club actually just recently changed our color palette to make it more accessible so that we can use more color combinations,

[00:17:06.28] spk_0:
Can you, ah, name any of those resources that are available to check color contrast, and you can send us to,

[00:17:59.58] spk_2:
uh, mine. My favorite is color palette Accessibility Checker. It allows you to put your full color palette into their system and then check each color against all of the colors in your palette for that accessibility purpose. Um, if you’re Jeff checking two colors for contrast purposes. Web aim color contrast Checker is a really good one on both of those. Tell you a and double A levels. So the Web accessibility has level A. Which is the least, uh, the minimum that you need to dio Double A, which is what most organizations looking for and tripled a triple. It is very difficult to do when you kind of have toe constantly, maintain it toe, reach it. So if you’re thinking about all the lawsuits that are coming out about accessibility, they’re mostly talking about double standards.

[00:18:07.43] spk_0:
What are some of those lawsuits around our visual products.

[00:18:52.84] spk_2:
Yeah, the big one that came out in within the last year is the dominoes case. Um, somebody was trying to order pizza online, I think, actually through their up on and was unable to do so. So they sued dominoes for acceptability. Um, and won the case. Oh, okay. Do you want one of the things that we’re still trying to get figured out is the 88 definitely applies to digital products. Over those bases are considered public domain, like public public domain, but like the public space similar to if you walk into the restaurant. Um, but the congress hasn’t actually passed anything that’s told us what those guidelines are. So most people are using the web accessibility, Web content, accessibility guidelines as what be our gaming for, But it’s not legally state that yet.

[00:19:11.94] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. But it is a benchmark for for now, until the courts Yeah, decide on a standard. Okay. Um what else? What else should we be talking about?

[00:19:34.94] spk_2:
Um uh oh. I have one more resource that might be helpful, but for people. But it’s called the color blindness simulator. Um, and it allows you to upload an image and then check different ways of color blindness. Though it’ll stimulate a red color blindness, the blue color blindness. So you can see what that image looks like if somebody can’t feel the images.

[00:19:51.34] spk_1:
Okay. And what is that again? Color

[00:19:53.81] spk_2:
color blindness in later

[00:19:57.54] spk_0:
simulator. Okay. Okay. Um, those are excellent. You ticked off like dozens of I don’t know to Doesn’t things or something. Excellent. Um, you leave it there. Does that sound like

[00:20:06.74] spk_2:

[00:20:07.39] spk_0:
good coverage? Okay. Cool. Uh, thank you very much. Laura Patch. She is digital product manager at the Sierra Club. Laura, Thank you very much.

[00:20:16.87] spk_2:
Thank you.

[00:20:22.24] spk_0:
And thank you for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of the the virtual 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software.

[00:21:47.29] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountains software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you were That has features you need and exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take two. You’re dismantling racism journey. That’s our newest special episode, and it’s out. You will have a long journey. So start with this single step. My guest is pretty itchy. Shaw. She’s president and CEO of Flourished Talent Management Solutions. Starting where you are with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you gather data about racist structures that are right under your nose? Who do you invite to the conversation? She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on. She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on YouTube If you want to wait for the video, that is Tony’s Take two. Now it’s time for inclusive design with Nick Steen. How welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:21:58.79] spk_0:
profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference were sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. With Me Now is next in how he’s an independent accessibility consultant. Nick. Welcome.

[00:22:06.64] spk_3:
Hey, tony. Thanks for having me. Really nice to chat with you.

[00:22:10.24] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m very glad we could work this out virtually. And, uh and it’s good to know that you’re well and safe outside Vancouver, British Columbia.

[00:22:20.40] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s difficult times, but we’re staying safe yet.

[00:22:32.10] spk_0:
Alright, Alright, um, your NTC topic is forget accessibility. Think inclusive design s O. What is it about accessibility that you want us to? Who forget?

[00:24:41.84] spk_3:
I think that when we’re focusing on Leon excess stability, we’re forgetting that accessibility is good for everyone. No, As as an individual with a disability myself, I will never forget that implementing where backs disability is above and beyond for people with disabilities to be able to use the web. But if we’re thinking Onley in those terms, we tend to forget that, uh, making sure color contrasts are good. You know, you’re not using great text on great background. That’s good for people with low vision. But it’s also good for you when you’re using your mobile device and full sun when you’re talking about making sure the the target area for ah click is big enough for someone who has cerebral policy and doesn’t have fine motor control to click on that little check box. It’s also good for someone that has big fingers and trying to fill a form on the bus or public transit. Uh, when we’re talking about plain language, we’re also talking about? Well, maybe maybe someone has a functional in permit. Maybe it’s a young mom with a very young baby that has colic. So she’s trying to juggle a sick baby in one hand and read up information on her mobile phone on the other. And the cognitive load is very, very impacted. So there’s all these things that are really important for people with disabilities, but that I also happen to benefit everybody a little bit like in the physical world. We started implementing curb cuts that was good for wheelchair users. Sauce good for parents pushed airs for their kids, for delivery people with it appears on unstable. You, um, you may have to edit me and post.

[00:25:08.14] spk_0:
Yeah, let’s keep going. Ah, lot of times the, uh, the the way it appears is not. The word is not what’s getting recorded. I’ve had that happen a couple times, so we’ll just Kentucky as long as we can still hear each other. Yeah, um, and if the video becomes unusable, then we’ll just do the audio. Yeah. Also cuts also help those of us who are pulling luggage. Yep.

[00:25:28.39] spk_3:
So it’s it’s really a question of universal access. And when we’re start thinking about what we’re doing, we really should talk about inclusive design. It’s it’s going from, um it’s going from situation that are equal, but different to situation where everyone can benefit.

[00:25:35.96] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. What is your own disability?

[00:25:41.02] spk_3:
I’m a wheelchair user.

[00:25:49.59] spk_1:
Okay. Does that impact screen use? No, it

[00:27:10.24] spk_3:
doesn’t. Not for me. Um, but I’ve had a situation where I was, Um, a few years ago, I managed to broke a wrist because I slid on ice in my I can’t out of the sidewalk felon in the street broke arrest. So I had a problem moving around, obviously. And about a week later, I broke the other risk in a car accident. So I was severely impaired from being able to use the keyboard. Normally, type about 80 words minute. And when that happened, I was starting to fingers and it was very, very awkward. Eso having been a an accessibility expert for a large number of years, I was also faced with having to to learn things I knew were there on you. The tools, for example, Dragon, naturally speaking, to be able to to speak to the computer for, for interacting and you all that I had used all that in testing. But the point was really brought home about no. As a wheelchair user, I realized the barriers in the physical world. But as, um, as a suddenly web disabled user, I had to relearn all these things again.

[00:27:53.64] spk_0:
Yeah, I see how deeply personal this is for you. Um, I’ve had guests on talking about accessibility. I know we’re supposed to You wanna think inclusive design? But those guests were framing it as accessibility on and, uh, I’ve never heard anyone mention the size of a radio button the size of anything that you need to click on as being difficult to land on for someone with cerebral palsy Or, I guess, other neuro muscular disabilities as well. Yeah. Um,

[00:29:18.64] spk_3:
yeah, it In general, we tend to to know about accessibility for screen reader users because it’s been the most obvious. The biggest barrier is for people that are have vision impairments and then rely on SSF technology like screen reader users. But the fact is, there’s a whole range of disabilities that effect using the Web. There’s obviously people with no vision or low vision There’s people with hearing impairments that, for example, if there’s no transcript for your show, they’re not gonna be able to interact with the shore or get material out of the show. But aside a side issue to someone who is born deaf and grows up deaf. Where American Sign language is their first language. The grandma, the structure of the language, is so completely different from English. So when they’re interacting with content, a lot of these native SL users English is their second language. And then if we don’t try to in plain English, it makes content difficult to digest. There’s just all kinds of little things that if it’s not something we’re used to, or we don’t stop to think about it, there’s impact all over the place.

[00:29:43.54] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Yeah. Um, let’s see. So, um, how should we? How shall we continue? Um, and there are other. Are there other design concepts I ideas that you want to share, just like your listing them and explaining them? Or should we approach this some other way?

[00:29:46.94] spk_2:

[00:31:33.78] spk_3:
sure. If we’re gonna use video, let me share. You’re one of the a couple of the slides. I have in my, uh, in my deck for the presentation, which might actually bring something to to the viewers. Um, we’re tired, King a lot about, um, equality making the Web equal for everyone. And in this slide, I have an image of, uh, three kids, very short kid, the middle height kid in a tall kid looking at a ball game over a fence, and they’re all on, uh, all on the box. That allows them to be a little bit higher, but the box is the same height for everyone’s. The very tall kid gets to see very well above defense. But the very short kids still can’t see above it if we contrast that to equity, which is a concept that we’re talking a lot about Is that well, they’re very talk. It does not need any boxes to see over defense. The kid that’s no halfway between the two can use one box and he can see over the box and then a very short kid. If you stack two of those boxes suddenly he can see over defense. So we’re talking of an equitable situation, and that’s one of the concept that I want people to realize is we have to stop thinking about access abilities in terms of equality, but we really should start thinking about it in terms of equity. But if we push further, um

[00:31:52.69] spk_0:
and thank you, Nick, for explaining what’s on the slides because, ah, lot of people won’t be seeing the video. It’s an audio podcast. And then if our video is good, I’ll put that on the YouTube channel. But most people are just getting audio through the podcast. So you’re thank you for sounding like a screen reader as you describe what’s in the

[00:33:54.14] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned that it’s something I’ve gotten used to do, and I do. Presentations is that I rarely put visuals up on the slide that I won’t take time to explain because I don’t know who in my audience has vision issues. I don’t know who may not be able to process an image. They’re better at processing the odor words then then what they’re seeing. So I always try Teoh to make sure that I describe what’s going on because it just it just makes on. Um, the other thing is that, um, when we’re thinking about this relationship between equality and equity. We could also start thinking about barrier free, which is the step beyond that, which is really thinking inclusively if in our thinking process, we think about whichever thing we design. And that includes offense, where we have to go through the process of what would be an equal experience, what would be an equitable experience? How about we do offense that everybody can see through without needing boxes to get up? So in this image, I have the same three kids an offence. But instead of being a psyllid plank fence, it’s actually a wire friends that everybody can see through. So I really want people to shift thinking from this idea of us versus them, people with disabilities and people without disabilities, disabled people versus abled people. I want to get people started to think about. We’re all in this together, and we have to build barrier free, um, environments, whether it’s in the built environment or on the Web. So it’s really important to to start that shift in thinking

[00:35:32.74] spk_0:
okay on, and it’s sort of, um, um, I don’t know if revolutionary is too strong a term, but you’re you definitely want to shift that you run a shift, at least if not if not revolutionary, it’s ah, It’s a substantial movement from where people are thinking now, Um, my sense of it is ah, lot of Web and I and I guess we shouldn’t even limited to websites. But because all digital products, right, Whether it’s ah, yeah, we’re a word document using headings, using the headings, um, format versus you, writing the text and then highlighting it Which reader isn’t gonna recognize? So it’s all it’s all digital products, not we’re not only talking about websites. Um, my sense is that most of the thinking is that you create something and then maybe you go back and try to adapt it, which would be, you know, uh, adding, adding the same, that would be your will be the first picture that you just showed, which would be changing it. What changing the way it appears for everybody or the ways design you have the way it appears for everybody. After I’ve already done my design and creation. Then I go back and yeah, and ad code for ah screen reader. Let’s say all right. My sense is that that’s the more prevalent on yeah, more prevalent methods methods.

[00:38:24.82] spk_3:
That is what’s happening mostly out there. We really want to shift the thinking in terms of thinking about accessibility from the get go. Obviously, in our my my talking about accessibility, I never forget. The primary goal of this is making things work for people with disabilities because we have such a need to access information, quicks example. So much of the information now is Onley available online because of the coronavirus. But so many of the size that provide that information is not available because they’re not accessible. So we have. We have a failure of the system for people with disabilities accessing information, which is critical and even, maybe vital. So we want to think about accessibility from the very early phases off the first design, where this wire frame or even just concepts, one of the complaint. A lot of the people I interact with and have done for over 25 years that have been involved in this wonderful world is that people say, Hey, Nick, accessibility. Yeah, I get it, but it’s so expensive, and then I start telling them about and experience from my own life uh, I know someone who built house, and they just had two steps under the entrance and the door was fairly narrow, you know, it was 28 inch door or something like that. 30 inch? Not sure. And then they became a wheelchair user and they had to retrofit the house. They had to actually remove the front door. They had to remove bricks around the front door to make a bigger opening. They had to put a ramp in. And of course, that was very expensive. But had they actually build house that was accessible in the first place? Had they put in a door that was wider and had no step entrance? That added cost at the time of building would have been maybe three, maybe 5% mawr, instead of costing tens of thousands of dollars to To fix digital accessibility is the same thing. If you build it accessibly in the first place, it won’t cost you any more because in theory your designers, your developers, your quality and assurance testers everybody in that chain and that workflow should be having the skills and the knowledge to build it accessibly. Now the reality is and doesn’t always happen, but, um, it’s good. So exists. Ability does not have to be expensive and can be baked in from the start. A little bit like blueberry muffins. Have you ever tried to bake blueberry muffins and put the blueberries after the muffins are cooked? It’s not gonna work.

[00:39:23.22] spk_0:
Have not have not tried that. Now, Um, the only reference I could think about in, uh, popular culture blueberry muffins made That makes me think of the movie. Ah, casino. Where the The head of the casino, Um uh, tells the baker that he wants, um, the same number of blueberries in every muffin because he just cut open a muffin that had very few. And his breakfast companion had ah dozen in his And, uh, so and that. But that’s not what you’re talking about. Sorry. That’s a silly digression. I like movies. Um, and casino is a very good one.

[00:39:55.02] spk_1:
Time for our last break turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know that turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard. So people know you’re a thought leader in your field, and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for inclusive design from 20 NTC.

[00:40:00.61] spk_0:
Any other idea what other ideas do you want to share around inclusive design?

[00:43:23.50] spk_3:
For me, one of the other important concept to think about his accessibility is not a checklist. We’re using standards and guidelines. For example. The standard right now for checking it for site is accessible. Not is the Web content accessibility guidelines Version 2.1. That’s the most recent version of the guidelines. And if we’re going through that, we end up using a checklist. Our ultimate images have alternate attribute. Can we get through to all the elements on the Web page using the keyboard? Only is there enough contrast between text and background? And there’s There’s a long list. There’s like nearly 80 success criteria, and each of them have specific testing checkpoints to to look at. But if we think Onley in terms of conforming to the standard, we’re falling back into this trap of looking at putting the blueberries back in the muffin after the muffins have been baked. We’re looking at basically the minimal amount of work we need to do to get away with with it to not be sued, for example, whereas I really want people Teoh thinking in terms of, we want our website to be usable by as many people as possible with as little difficulty as possible. So we should think about getting away from accessibility In terms of checklist. The checklist is useful as a way of getting a pulse of the health of our website, but we have to look at everything else as well. And if we’ve thought about Texas ability from the very early stages of the project, then at that point that should be fairly easy. The checklist is just there as a safeguard, but we’re looking also at the best practices. For example, a ramp you’re looking at a ramp in the built environment. The Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines called for ramp to have no more than one in 12 radiant. That means the ramp doesn’t go longer than a shorter than 12 foot. For every foot of height it goes up, and that’s a minimum. Most people would, uh, mobility impairments should be able to do that. But what about putting a ramp that is with a gentle slope where it’s one and 15? Maybe it’s not gonna hurt anything. You’re just adding a couple feet to your ramp. Nine times out of 10. You don’t have a space limitation to do that. And suddenly you’ve made it easier for everyone. So thinking. In terms of digital accessibility, we can think about similar issues. For example, color contrast. The guidelines says you have to have a contrast of 4.5 to 1 to be sufficient for people with low vision. How about you? Do you use something like sticks to one? You increase the contrast a little bit, use better colors. Maybe you use a folded font appropriately. And at that point, you’ve you’ve gone beyond checklist and you’ve made the site more usable or usable for everyone.

[00:43:50.10] spk_0:
Yeah, all right. Beyond the standard of beyond the beyond the minimum standard. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:51.16] spk_1:
You make a distinction

[00:43:55.07] spk_0:
between disability and impairment. Could you flush that out, please?

[00:45:05.09] spk_3:
Yeah. I’m coming at it from having worked in the independent living movement for for a number of years, where one of the basic concept is my disability is not the fact that I use a wheelchair. My disability is the fact that you have 15 steps to get into your building. My disability is not that I’m blind, but that you’re not offering alternative format for your menu. Uh, so we’re talking about the difference between a condition and a disability. The impairment is I’m wheelchair user joys blind, Julius deaf. Those are the impairments, the condition. The disability comes into effect when society builds environments that have barriers. So in effect, the disability has not come from within. The disability comes from without. If you build something that has barriers, you disabled me. And that, I think, is a very important distinction to make.

[00:45:34.77] spk_0:
Yeah, very good. Yeah. I could see how this is. Like I said, deeply personal for you. Um, and you think you’ve been thinking about these things for decades? These these concepts, um, and the disabilities that the culture of the society has has built the disabilities that society has built. Um, how do you want to Ah, you want to wrap up, please.

[00:46:44.41] spk_3:
I’d like to leave people with one message about accessibility. It’s a continuum. it’s not a bill. I’ll or in all you know, it’s not because you feel you can’t make everything accessible that you shouldn’t even try. The more you do it to, more accessible things are gonna be and start now, just starting now, make little changes. Your you know your webs that doesn’t use headings. See if you can implement headings. Look at the little things you can do the low hanging fruits, because the more you put in, the easier is gonna be for more people to use your your site or your documents. Whether it’s pdf word whichever Web based resource is, start now and do as much as you can without necessarily worrying about being an expert. That’s done this for 20 years. Um, talk to people about excess abilities, see what they suggest and try to implement in your in your workflow in your website whether you know you’re the executive director of non profit that never really thought about it and start thinking about it. Start the discussion.

[00:46:58.82] spk_0:
Thank you. Next in help Independent accessibility. Consultant. Thank you very much for sharing neck.

[00:47:04.38] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. It’s been a pleasure.

[00:47:06.61] spk_0:
My pleasure. Please stay safe outside Vancouver and thank you very much for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? Thanks a lot for being with us

[00:47:58.98] spk_1:
next week. More from 20 anti sees Smart speakers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO

[00:48:29.56] spk_0:
creative producer is Fair Meyer Family Sure profit other 95% go out

[00:48:48.37] spk_7:
and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for May 17, 2019: Nobody Reads Your PDFs & Map Your Data

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Genie Gratto, Meghan Hess & Nathan Gasser: Nobody Reads Your PDFs
Formatting your reports and research in PDF may bore your audiences to where they refuse to read your stuff. Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference helps you assess what’s best for your nonprofit’s content, including interactive formats. They’re Genie Gratto at GWRITES; Meghan Hess from Campaign Legal Center; and Nathan Gasser with Report Kitchen.

Salim Sawaya: Map Your Data
Salim Sawaya shares ways to visualize your outcomes data on maps, which can revolutionize how you think about and deliver services. He has free and low cost mapping tools. He’s from Esri.

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into Erato carrot itis if I saw that you missed today’s show. Nobody reads your pdf ce formatting. Your reports and research in pdf May bore your audience is toe where they refused to read your stuff. Our panel from the non-profit Technology Conference helps you assess what’s best for your non-profits content, including interactive formats there. Jeannie Grotto at G, writes Meghan Hess from Campaign Legal Centre and Nathan Goss er with report kitchen. Then map your data. Salim Sawara shares ways to visualize your outcomes, Matt Data on maps, which can revolutionize how you think about and deliver services. He has free and low cost mapping tools. He’s from Isra on Tony’s Take to the Nukes, Responsive by pursuant full service. Fund-raising data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations made easy Text NPR to four four four nine nine nine Here’s nobody reads your pdf ce from the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of nineteen ninety si. That’s the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. We are in the convention center in Portland, Oregon, and this interview, like all our nineteen ntcdinosaur views, is brought to you by our partners. ActBlue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact with me Now our Genie Grotto, Meghan Hess and Nathan Gosar. Jeannie See? The closest to me is communications consultant at G writes. Megan has his digital manager at Campaign Legal Centre, and Nathan is president and executive chef at Report Kitchen. Jeannie. Meghan Nathan. Welcome. Thank you. Radio pleasure. Your topic is, uh, it’s a good one. Interesting. Nobody’s reading your pdf ce published audience friendly research and reports. Um, let’s start down the end there, Nathan. This is, uh, this is a trouble area. We’re going through a lot of time and expense to produce surveys, reports, research, and nobody’s reading it. Yeah, sex. Exactly. Right. Way being this interest in this topic up for being working with agencies and organizations and foundations for years. And exactly we said they will produce in some cases, spend two, three years and spend multi millions of dollars in research. And you’re determining. Actually, there was an article published. What if the title was? What if the solution to all our problems was locked in a piela? Somebody was reading, and it’s sort of the point Is that like, it’s not just like, oh, no one’s reading my work It’s no one’s reading work that could potentially, you know, changed the world. And it’s really bringing that up impact to this work that we’re we’re trying to address. Okay, uh, now it was This was originally titled When I first read it. Nobody’s downloading your pfc published research and reports people actually read What was the metamorphosis to nobody’s reading your pdf, but was too technical downloading or what? Uh, Meghan, can you share Will shed a light on this. It was mostly that the NTC folks, we’re helping us to edit for tea to bring more people into Russian. They head thoughts on the wording. Okay. Something provocative. No, but they were the same idea. As you know. If people are downloading it, they aren’t reading it on DH. That’s really what it is. Just about getting eyes on stuff Okay. Um, so let’s is there a problem? Let’s start. Jeanie is there? Is there a problem with the pdf format? Inherently? Oh, absolutely not. I mean, I think the pdf serves a really important purpose and and offers a way to present some of this material in a consolidated way that people can have. The issue is really thinking about audience and really thinking about why people are trying to put the information out there and making sure that those audience members are able to access exactly what they need to do the change in the world that an organization would hope they would dio. And so so, yeah, so it’s It’s not saying, Let’s not do PdF So it’s really all about let’s think about the content and think about the way that content is being delivered and make sure that it’s reaching the folks that we wanted to reach. Okay, so maybe pdf is not the best format to convey your your world saving research is that it could be. But there could also be other audiences that might need a shorter, more snack, oppcoll way of looking at some of the content, or you might be trying to create, you know, move people to action in a particular way, and they’re not necessarily going to move toe action through, you know, reading a fifty five page report. So So if you all identified different constituencies are different personas that consume data in a different way. Yeah. So? So in the session, I was presenting a few different examples that we’ve had at my organization Can be legal center on DH. The first step of when you’re gonna put research and information out to the world should really be Who is this information for and who do we want to consume it? And what do we want them to? Tokyo. So, like, free states, journalist is going to consume information. I want information very different format than a social science researcher. Sure. So So Yet putting this research out there Do we want a journalist to pick up on something? In which case we might want to pull out the three fax that we think are the most scintillating fax that a journalist might want to talk about? And do we want to put that out there in some way that’s more eye catching than buried. Fifty pages into your pdf and maybe it’LL supplement the pdf so that they can then go deeper or contact your issue expert. Or maybe you have a constituency you’re trying to reach. That’s not going to open a pdf at all and this vital information for them. For instance, we I have put together a bunch of information for returning citizens who want to know about their rights to vote. So people with felony histories and the laws are different in fifty states. For how Who is able to vote under what circumstances? And if you are looking for your particular state and your particular circumstance, you’re not going to read that information in the pdf. So how do we get that information in front of the exact right person? Okay, dahna. So, Nathan, so is our our first. I gotta wrap my right mind around this because you guys ever think about this. You all pardon me? Not you guys. You all have been thinking about this for a long time, and, uh, well, I looked at it for the first time a couple weeks ago, and I have not been thinking about it solid for the for the for the all those weeks. Uh, and my hearing Is this what we start with? What’s the purpose of the research and and who we want to have consuming? Exactly. It’s actually the way we began. So what’s our goal? Why do we have this when we have this report to begin with? Exactly. You just summarize. Probably the first five minutes. Ten minutes of talk, which was Okay, Good. I’m glad the first five minutes, not the last one, you know, is perfect. And that’s how you started. You know, the point is not what technology tools do we have available? The point is, who’s the audio snusz and who were trying to reach. And then once we reach them, what do we want him to do? What actually wanted to take Weare talking with someone after the session? About about measuring impact? You don’t measure impact with how many tweets we get. How many page using we have. How many people looked at it. We measure impact with how many laws were changed. How many people were able to vote who run before, how maney, You know, real impact in the world. And that’s the kind of thing that we’re trying. You have to start with to say what we’re trying to take. What actions do we want? These audiences, once we’ve identified them to take and what tools are they gonna need? And we take that action, you have to start at that level before you know it can really look at all the different mirriam technical tiles decided I would be most appropriate. Help us identify some of the potential audience is that we might be producing content for yes. So you said you mentioned a bit ago social science researchers, and that’s actually a great point. There are, uh, there are cases where where you know, the entire audience of, ah, body of research is other researchers now in its And the point is just to see the next step of research. And in that case, you’re going toe, you know, trust that someone’s going to sit and read through a you know, one hundred page pdf. That’s OK. They are motivated to do that. That’s not the case for you, for everyone, for most of them, in-kind of organizations that you would expect to see it in ten. They’re not necessarily right. You’ve speaking to social signs researchers. They’re probably going, you know, often one step more towards the general audience with that with other organisations. And, you know, so you want to look at our someone would be motivated to read through, you know, several page three or four page instead of two hundred, you know, Is it someone who’s going to be motivated to interact with Cem Cem data or download the data themselves and, you know, work with it that way, If someone has wants to see the information on a map and they want to zoom into their county that there’s countless examples of, you know, Megan mentioned one where oppcoll you really only care hyre about, you know, one fiftieth of her data, right? It’s the state that you live, you know. So the ability to cut away the stuff you’re not interested in is, you know, is huge. And that’s almost not possible with video because you’ve got page after page after page after page of on There’s no, you know, sort of got cutting away that that’s something like a basic Web page with a little bit of interactivity can bring. It’s time for a break Pursuant the art of First Impressions had a combined strategy, analytics and Creative to captivate new donors and keep them coming back. That’s very book on donor acquisition you get at the listener landing page because you want to make a smashing first impression on your potential donors. That listener landing page Tony dahna may slash pursuant capital P for please. Of course, this is a live listener loving the pasta’s pleasantries the plod classed Oh my God, the iconoclast plod class for first love The love goes out to the live listeners. Thank you for being with us. I’m glad you’re with us today. On this day that you’re listening live that I’m not in the studio alive but you’re alive. So the love goes to you and the plot class Pleasantries poured Class provoc room. I’m so glad that over thirteen thousand of with you of with you are listening on the plot classed that you’re iconoclasts If you’re If you’re on the plot class, you’re an iconoclast and the pleasantries and present trees go out to you. Thanks, Thanks for being with us Applied Class listeners. Now let’s go back. Teo, Jeannie Grotto, Megan Hesse and Nathan Goss er with nobody reads your pdf ce Jeannie. What are some other potential formats besides the written report? Well, I mean, I think one of the things that is such a huge trend right now, rightfully so in all communications and storytelling. And that’s a really big deal. And so a lot of researchers air turning two interviews and trying to tell stories through that research. And those stories can be extracted and they can be either extracted as video clips. They can be extracted, as you know, kind of, you know, even explainer videos, you know, with, like a little bit of animation, things like that. There are many ways of expressing those stories, and you know, if those stories can be great and they can be really impactful, and they can move people to be ready to make change. But if people can’t get to them, then they’re not going to make that change. And sometimes, you know, you might have a document or a report that has, you know, multiple audiences. For example, you might have one that you have to turn into your funder, and your funder is very interested in what happened over the course of the body of research. But you also might want tohave, for example. Policy makers perhaps make a policy, you know? So, for example, say you were doing a report about safe streets and you wanted local policy makers to be able to read it and read the stories that are in it and really, you know, start implementing different policy than exists in a current community. We know that one of the ways people move is through stories and that you know that tugging at their heart and sort of getting to their emotions is going Teo going to be in some ways more effective than just data and the data is important than the data backs up those stories. But being able to sort of isolate those stories Teo get people emotionally involved will help organisations make that change a little easier in a little faster. Okay, that’s related to what do you want people to do with Derek Lee? Is this a donation or is this more research? Right. It’s just, uh, awareness by a funder from four hundred. Exactly. Okay, Um, see, Megan, where what else can we talk about around this topic and sort of like before we go to the workflows, you have weight. You have method of strategies around workflows getting content from researchers into something. Get interactive format. But is there more we can we can touch on before we get to the workflows portion? I think the thing that’LL add is ahead, like three or four people come up after the session to say, How do I convince my colleagues that this is worthwhile by, um, I I think that our organization serves particularly good example of this because my colleagues are mostly attorneys and policy experts on the information that they consume is from pdf. So you know they are looking at stuff that’s out there, either. It’s government data that they’ve downloaded in a pdf form, and they’re analyzing it. Or it’s research that’s put out by colleagues and other organizations. And it’s a report, and it’s a Pdf Download it, like other social scientists were talking about. They are the audience for BTS for many times, and so Teo convince them that maybe our output we should consider other avenues for Supplementary Avenue is something that’s a struggle for a lot of a lot of folks, and I think with tip is that you don’t have to go all or nothing. You can put the information out there as the pdf, but then you can extract the information that you want to get in front of the right eyes and supplement with that. And so that’s one way to convince them that, you know, this could be something that doesn’t take away from the work that you want to put out there and only adds defected Supplementary and we’re repurpose ing And think of the energy we’re saving from having to create new content when we can produce this in a different format for lots of different audiences. Sure. And then, of course, you know, if it’s not appropriate to be putting out that pdf based on who you’re trying to reach and that’s just going to be in a wasted effort, then you know you need to talk them through the same thing. If thatyou thought process that you’ve gone through if like who is this information really for, and how are we going to get in front of them? Follow-up. I mean, I also think it’s really this is a place where metrics are really helpful And so, you know, being able to say, Okay, here’s the pdf And now, you know, maybe taking one little bit of the report and kind of creating one small interactive piece around it and sharing that and then being able to say, Okay, here’s here. The statistics around that particular piece say it’s a video. Here’s how many shares that’s gotten here, the platforms where it’s been shared on DH and really being able to serve, set that against the download. And then if you can take that interactive piece and track not just that it was shared. But then, if you can get beyond that and even figure out what actions were coming out of that, that you can help make the case along the way that these incremental steps are really useful. And then the more you’re able to make that case, the easier it is the next time around. Oh, for sure. Yeah, Break, break the barrier. That Okay, I’m glad I’m I’m glad you brought up buy-in back-up because that’s its critical and could be. You know, if you’re if you’re the sole advocate of something different, you’re you’re fighting it uphill battle. You need allies and the hyre up they are the better or the board, at least at least in number. Maybe maybe you don’t have the higher up. But if you have numbers among your peers, you know, then you can start to make the case. Okay. Okay. So, Nathan, let let’s let’s talk some about these workflows that I’m not sure I understand completely, but you’re gonna help me andare Listeners understand workflows forgetting content from researchers and authors into interactive web format. Yeah, So does this mean So it’s it’s important to look at where, you know, along with the buy-in question is, you know, what can we what steps come we implement that are going to be, you know, achievable. And if you’re asking people to radically change what they’re doing, it’s going to be a harder sell. And so if you could look at, say, Windows, a researcher gathered their data and work with it. And, for example, if a researcher gathers their data and produces a little chart in Excel or something like that, and then sends that on to the editor, you’ve lost the ability to do something interesting with the rest of the data in interactive with data because the researcher has not passed on all of that data. They sort of sliced it away and left it in excel and simple little tools like that. So the question of, you know, win in the process do we need to get involved into say, Look, we’re going to save you time. We’re gonna ask you not to make these graphs anymore and excel. And we’re gonna ask you to just turn the data, overdo it, you know, put them right into a tool that allow you to let the visitor to the website You interact with the data on their own things like that. Then you’ve got the data in a way that you can, you know that you can work with it without having Teo oppcoll towards. You know, if you similarly, if you have on article or the even the body, the text body of the work go right to a designer who’s going to produce a very sort of fancy and attractive but hard to work with, you know, production file or publication file, there’s gonna be really hard to get that back onto the web in a way that was Jean you mentioned, you know, be like skimmed and snapped and sliced in two smaller doses, You’re gonna have this big chunk of, you know fifty pages. That’s really hard to work with. So that’s the sort of workflows thing where we’re trying to say, If you try to go in and say everyone, stop what you’re doing and do it a completely different way, it’s gonna be a really hard sell it in, Say, here’s at this point instead of just throwing this file away, just copied over to this other department and they’LL let them work with that. And then you can keep doing what you’re doing That’s making was saying, You know, you don’t you know, You don’t say stop cubine completely, but you want to say Let’s try to get into the spots in the workflow that we need to pull the pieces that we need to show really the advantage of of giving somebody you know, certain more direct access to this data. D’Oh any of you have recommendations for tools that are available? Teo, help the public, uh, sort through data. Are there such tools? Another are What are they? Yes. Oh, we know. Among us. Yeah. So there’s no way we’re actually talking with someone who wanted to do basically an interactive charter graphic. So, in any case, she had some kind of of the life cycle of, ah, of an ecosystem that, you know, it was a very complicated graphic, and it it worked well in pdf. But you only because you could zoom into, like, five thousand times and see these tiny little you know, words. Um, so you know, there’s a tool, for example, called info Graham, that allows you to create that kind of interactive graphics in-kind zoom in and zoom out and just present that in, you know, kind of a one one step things that you know that works nicely for interactive graphic way of sharing info Graham and focus. Graham. Yeah. Phone in program. Okay, way Haven’t one of the things in in full disclosure. I represent a company that produces a product called Report Kitchen that does the exact same thing that we’re talking about, which is take a document that starts is a pdf and take it all the way back to having all the texts and the graphics and everything extracted and produce a Web page you could work with on add interactive video or, you know, visualizations and things like that to it. So that’s Ah, that’s another option. If you want to have sort of retain all of the information because in many cases, you know, it’s easy to say, Well, you throw away the stuff people don’t want. Well, in some cases, people want a lot of it. So, you know, being able to convert it all and have an easy step is something that we’ve put a lot of energy into this this report kitchen product that we work with. I would still have a good amount of time together. Another five, six minutes or so. What? Uh, what else did you tell your audience? That you’re not sharing with non-profit radio listeners? Sametz Amy, you lower our speaker are piela. Please get a little feedback. What about what else is there? So one thing that we did in our session was way actually distributed worksheet through the room to help people start thinking through the reports that they’re working with and what they can do with it now, like this is something that you can put in place. No matter what the status of the report Is it something that’s already been published? It’s out. There is a pdf. Let’s go back to it. Pull out the most interesting fax and make a chart about it or make it, you know, easy infographic that could accompany the report online and put that information front and center in front of people. Or maybe there’s a report that still in the brainstorming stage where you can like Nate was saying, Insert yourself into the process now early on and say, Hey, I think we could do something different with this this time s So we were trying to bring it home for people that you know, we’re putting all these in for these examples in front of you of waves that we’ve done this in the past from simple to complicated. But this is something that you can take from this conference back and do right away. This is something that you can start implementing, no matter where they you know who you’re working with. What stage of the reports that you’re working with is This is something that you can do and take away from the conference and and feel like you accomplish something having come all the way out here to go to Portland, Was this a hand out O r re sources or an online resource we can share? There is. Yeah, there’s a pdf. The thing of all the ways already a pdf has its place. It does. And yes. So we’re planning Teo, share the link to that. That worksheet is part of our community notes for that session. Okay, so where where people go for the community notes. How does that work There is? Yeah. You go on the antenna app every every session and on the site. If there is a link to the community notes and a cz wella sze to some additional resource is I believe so. Yeah. Dahna all their dahna cider on the Appia. You don’t have to remember the girl. Okay, Okay. Very good. Uh, so we still have some time together. What else? What else? Uh, don’t hold out on non-profit radio listeners. What else did you talk about? You know, the other thing that that I would say this was another question that came up kind of after the session, but there were some questions about it along the way obliquely, but really one of the things that I think non-profit folks tend to fall down a little bit on, mostly because everybody is stretched for time and resource is. And all of that is really thinking through the audience and going out and doing even the very most basic user and audience research. And so you know, one of the suggestions that I have, I think that can be really helpful is just finding a couple of the key people in the audience is that you’re looking at. So you know, whoever you’re trying to target, going out and just asking them some questions about how do they consume information? Where do they consume their information? You know, it doesn’t have to be a really intense, kind of persona building process or a really intense German process. But normal folk and formal focus group kind of questions are really helpful on doing that. You know, kind of with your audience is either the people you serve, the people that give you money, you know, whoever it may be policy. Ah, policymaker, Policymakers, staff member, You know, somebody like that. Just getting them on the phone and ask them some questions is one of the things I think that particularly non-profit calms and non-profit tech people often here is somebody will come to them and say Nobody can blank so nobody can find anything on the Web site. Nobody’s reading this report. Nobody is, you know, and usually that’s often based on some anecdotal Um, and that’s fine. That’s pretty much human nature, you know, people sort of extrapolating from the thing. So my thing is, you know, you can also use that in reverse, go out and get your own and dahna data and have that available to help make the case and to get that buy-in. And I think that’s really important and can be a first step even for a non-profit that doesn’t have the budget for user research on DH. It can be something that just doesn’t take a time of time. So it could be easy to dio. Okay. Okay. Anything else you wanna share? Way got sometime. If anybody wants to add, what else did you do this seventy five minute session. So I know there’s more we’ve only been at We’ve only been talking for about twenty four minutes, so uh, yeah. Much follow-up with you said. I think it’s really important to listen. And I think there’s a lot of a lot of folks that you do the same thing they’ve been doing kind of over and over. Or or that they see other people doing you say white. And this, well, this organisation does. This one’s age doesn’t This one’s a bit of it. It doesn’t mean that that’s the right way, you know, just because a lot of people are doing it or a lot of organizations doing it doesn’t make it right, right? Yeah. And so make it popular. So listening to people and finding out, you know, again not just listening to the complaints. Because if all you do is listen to complaints going, get steered, you know, in circles and circles and circles. But it but going out and just, you know, proactively finding out. Does this make you put a little bit of effort and say, Does this graphic make sense to you? Can you Can you find what you want out of this? Does this piece of text makes sense to you? Does this video make sense to you? Like you know what which he’s going to motivate you, which is going to give you the resource is that you need to take the action that we wanted to take. You know, just again. Like you said simple audience research as it was a lot better than just kind of listening to your You listen to the same voices he always hear Meg and I’m going to give you the wrap up. Got about thirty seconds. Motivation. Positive. Positive conclusion. I’ll just say again that this is something that anybody who works in communications or marketing or fund-raising for any organization can do no matter you know how. How stubborn a ship you’re trying to turn you, Khun, make small, incremental changes that will put the you know, this information in a more accessible format than Petey Jeff. And maybe you’re not going to be doing a big Web, native mobile friendly website instead of the report to begin with. But you, Khun, do small things with little budget and not a lot of time that will make a big difference in how your audience consumes that information by putting that forethought in before you actually just throw the pdf on the website. This is something anyone could do. All right. Thank you very much. They are Jeannie Grotto communications consultant under G writes Meghan has digital manager at Campaign Legal Center on Nathan Gaza President and Executive chef at Report Kitchen. Thanks to each of you. Thank you, Tony. Thanks for having pleasure. My pleasure on thank you for being with our coverage of nineteen. Ninety si the non-profit Technology conference. This interview and all are nineteen ninety si interviews brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits Macon Impact. Thanks for being with us. We need to take a break when you see piela is their accountants, for God’s sake, You know what they do? The account that everybody knows that sexy PPI is like being a dentist. Everybody knows what what it’s all about. Do you need one? You need help with your form. Nine ninety is the time to change Audit firms get that fresh look. Perhaps they’ve got a deep practice for non-profits. They’re growing it. They want to grow up more. And you know what? Insider in the firm help them grow. Why? You may ask why? Because they’re sponsoring non-profit radio. You have to ask, You know the insider partner, He’s the partner yet Hooch Tomb has been on the show. Give him a ring. Check them out. Wagner cps dot com Now time for Tony Steak, too. Same videos last week because I’m away. So in the airforce during the Reagan years, I was a missile combat crew commander. First, I was a deputy missile combat crew commander, which would be a d m C C C. Then I was an M C C C missile combat crew commander. Of course, the U S A. F has its a c r o N Y m s, um, and as a d m triple C and then a m triple C. I worked in l double sees launch control centers, many of them spread throughout western Missouri. There were in other states as well. Uh, North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, and I think Kansas so much sure about that. But in our years, definitely those other states I named and what do we all do? Their we controlled nuclear missiles. You have direct control over ten missiles, but you got auxiliary control over another forty. So if your friends and the other capsules get wiped out. You can take over their missiles on. How do you do all this? You do it from the l double. See the launch control center, which is in which is down below on the LCF launch control facility. And it’s next to the L C E B Launch control Equipment Building. You can see all this on my video. It’s a video tour of the launch control Center. Actually, the tourist just the downstairs launch control center and adjacent next to it the L C E B launch control equipment building. Take a tour with me. Ah, the video tour is at twenty martignetti dot com and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now here’s map Your data from the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of nineteen NTC. We’re kicking off our day to coverage of the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. We’re at the convention center in Portland, Oregon, and my guest now is Salim Sawara. He’s manager of S Orry. Welcome, Salim. Thank you very much. Nice to meet you. Pleasure to have you. Thanks for kicking off our day to coverage. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Your topic is putting your data on the map techniques and tools for impact. So we’re talking about visualising data, the outcomes data or just visualizing any data geographic, many different kinds of data, any kind of data that has location involved, whether it’s related to where the people are, the places that were trying to serve, if an assist, Where are we working, where partners measure me, measurements of impact and outcomes and ultimately different ways to visualize data to engage people communicate, you know, engage with our community. OK, could be fund-raising Data also could be donorsearch donorsearch members, volunteers indicators that would help us to identify where we would find more of the people that were working with that. We’re getting donations from that air, volunteering for us, etcetera. All right, As you can hear, the crowd is approving of your of this topic and he’LL take it. I’ll tell you what’s in the background is we have the main where the main stages maybe a hundred feet away or so on DH. There’s there are ignite session’s going on where people are doing five minute quick, quick topics on and the crowd is approving of that as well, as well as what Salim has to offer. Congratulations. Um and Oh, and I neglected to say thie outset that this interview, like all our nineteen ntcdinosaur views, is brought to you by our partners at ActBlue free fund-raising Tools for non-profits. Teo, help them make an impact. Of course, we’ve got our ActBlue swag. I’m don ing it, etcetera. So thank you for that indulgence. Gotta take care of our premiere sponsor and they’re right next door. So if you’re not at nineteen NTC, come check him out after afterwards. ActBlue. Um okay, so we, uh I hear a lot that we’re overloaded with data. There’s there’s so much available. It’s hard to sort out what’s important. So I certainly resonate with the topic. Resonates with me trying to visualize it in you in your cell, in your session topic you say you’re people can revolutionize the way they deliver service asses by by visualizing their data. That’s a revolution. That’s ah, that’s a strong claim. Revolution. Not just not going to be an evolution. How do we revolutionize and has this relate Teo delivering services? Yeah, well, I mean, today we’re dealing with super complex problems, right? That deal with lots of different issues, many of them very complex into related. And it’s very hard to get a a full picture of what’s going on, where we’re working, where the people are. We’re trying to serve. In many ways, the power of geography and GS is in allowing us to integrate different kinds of data that otherwise would be very hard. Teo, Understand in one place or in one picture? Yes, yes, is geographic information. We have jargon jail on non-profit radio. No problem. You can keep me. Keep me in check. I will keep you out of Joe. Yeah, but geographic information systems is a technology that leverages the power of location and geography too. Bring data together, integrated and allow people to do different kinds of analysis, visualization. And you know, many different kinds of applications to support their work. What we see in the non-profit community especially, is the use of js helping organizations and how they identify where the place is or the people that were trying to serve or assist. Understand? Where are my resource is? Where is my work today? How how best can I align the resource is that I have with the places that I’m trying to target on DH then you know, using joyous and location data to help them measure the both the outcomes and the impact of their work. Whether that’s by collecting data, surveys of beneficiaries or actually measuring the impact of work that they’re doing or leveraging other kinds of data socioeconomic demographic data as proxies to help measure the impact of the projects and investments that they’re making. Okay, there’s a There’s a lot to unpack there. You’re an expert in data visual legation. I am not sorry you might marry trainable, but happen Alan after now. No, no, no, no, no. I wanted That’s a terrific overview is just a lot to unpack Shine we got. That’s where we got a half an hour. Um, all right, so we have a, uh I’m going to take our listeners of small and midsize non-profits so they all have a c e r N on. Let’s say, maybe they’re even using their their serum data base to help them with their program management. We’ve got a panel on that coming up, so I know that that’s eminently doable. What What do we like? What are the symptoms that were, I guess let’s start with this trouble areas. One of the symptoms that were not managing our data or we’re not getting the getting out of our data. What we need so that then visualisation can help us. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I think whether you’re talking about donors or members or volunteers or beneficiaries, it’s really hard to get a real clear understanding of what is the make up? What is the distribution? What are the You know, where do these people exist? There are concentrations exam. You can you can you can export from your CR M to an excel she and that’ll give you Ah, I mean, I guess you could do a graph of ah bar graph of the most ten most common zip codes or something exactly. But But that doesn’t tell you as much as I would for sure, seeing seeing that kind of data on a map to allow you to see our all of my people concentrated in one place. Do we have gaps in places where we wouldn’t necessarily expect them to be? Are there are there opportunities in the landscape of where our donors or members or volunteers maybe that we could target and try to fill in gaps that we see and visualizing. Okay, And this certainly applies to local organizations. You could be mapping within a county or state, or you could be mapping the Earth. Absolutely. And that’s I mean, there’s there’s organizations working at all scales, right? So whether they’re at a neighbor murcott level trying to work on the you know their civic association and improving their neighborhood or global organizations who are working on, you know, really large, complex global issues context. The context that location provides really helps. So what kinds of questions might we be asking that way? Don’t feel like we’re getting a decent answer to now. Yeah, so a lot of the and that’s a great way to frame the discussion, because what are the kinds of questions that people ask? That location helps them to understand. One of the big things that we see a lot in the nonprofit world is am I am I getting the resource is to the places that where they’re most needed, right? Am I delivering services to the people who have the most acute need, um, I seizing those kinds of opportunities to have the biggest impact that I can have. Where could I be? Prepositioning resource is in order to make the most accessible to the people that I’m trying to serve. A really simple example. Would be organizations who are looking to build some sort of infrastructure, whether it’s a well or a latrine or a school or a hospital, where the people that need those services are they already being served by existing infrastructure? Or is there some opportunity or need to build some new infrastructure in a place that will reach a population of people that didn’t have access before? So then, what do we need to have so we can start to visualize our data the way, the way you’re encouraging, really, the it it blows down Teo having some element of location that you’re capturing when you’re collecting data on an organizations work, and that could be very precise addresses or coordinate locations where it’s easy to get that kind of information or where it’s being tracked at that level. But it could be just as easily you know, a city state country combination that allows us to Ah, you know, record information at a county level at a state level at a country level, depending what level you’re trying to map. Exactly. So what? The questions are you tryingto task and answer. So knowing that everybody’s in the same county, if you’re in that county and try them out, that county is not gonna be helpful. Exactly is right here in these streets. But what if you’re in a state and and you’re trying to map a state, then county alone could be could be valuable. Exactly. If your foundation trying to decide. Like where the places across the country across the world where our resource is, would have the biggest impact, right? You don’t need to map things down to the address level. You’re not targeting households. You’re targeting broader geography, Sze, where you want to focus your efforts. If you are a community level non-profit you wantto deodorant on its street addresses blocks that you want to focus on this segment of a trail, this segment of a stream, whatever the focus of your work, maybe you want the data that you’re working with to be very granular. Okay, sure. So you need that you need some level of geographic data. Um and then all right, so let’s assume that we have mailing address and we’re a state organization and we want to want to see where our density of service beneficiaries are on. We have there. We have their street address because we are social workers occasionally make home visits etcetera throughout the state. What we do next. So there’s Ah, a number of different processes. But effectively, the process that one would use is called geo coating, where your matching those addresses with a database of addresses and streets. Teo actually put points on the map that are associated with the addresses that may exist in your spreadsheet or your database. So we need this interim step. You can’t go just from the street address to Teo to a mapping tool. That’s what geo coding is, how you go from an address to dahna map. Okay, that’s the process of matching the address with the actual physical location. Okay, and you’ve got some resource is tools. Some geo coding tools that we’re going to talk about exactly are tools that help people do that. There’s a number of them out there that support that work. So it is. It is simple is exporting from your CR m into one of these geo coding tools. If you’ve got to see us via a spreadsheet of data, that has been I know CSB come separated values. Even I know that one. Sorry. Don’t put me in jail. Yeah, if you have a spreadsheet with data that has addresses essentially just uploaded into this geo coding tool, you run the geo coding process and you end up with a shape file, which is Ah, Geospatial data file format that allows you to put data onto a map. Okay, that sounds Aah! That sounds really It’s really straightforward. It’s very common. There’s a number of different tools out there and allow you to do it. But that’s first step, right? Is just getting your data into a form or can actually be visualized in a map in, you know, any number of technologies. Um, And then once you have that, then it’s a matter of what are the other kinds of data that I want Teo Layer with my my information that gives it context. What’s the appropriate basement that I want to use my looking at. Do I want to see? Imagery? Is the backdrop for my data to get context on. What is the landscape that we’re looking at? Do I want a kind of more of a neighborhood street map that gives me a feel of what’s the neighborhood like and what the transit routes? There’s many different kinds of base maps. There’s also lots of other kinds of data and information. Census data, a CS American Community survey data, various kinds of socioeconomic indicators that would give context. Tio, What’s the level of population in a given area? How much income do they have? What are the kind of needs that they might have with regards education, health access, etcetera? And there’s lots of data out there on things even around. Where do people spend their money, right? Are they donated ng to charities and high numbers in this area versus that area? Are they spending time volunteering with different organizations more so in this area than another area? So all of that gives context. Teo your own organization with data, the crowd approves again. Time for our last break text to give you get there. Five party male, Many course by texting NPR to four four, four nine nine nine. That’s the five part course that is going to dispel myths around mobile giving. It does not have to be low dollar. You don’t have to go through phone companies. It’s not expensive to get started. It’s all in the five part email. Many course text. NPR November Papa Romeo to four, four, four, nine nine nine. And we’ve got lots more time now for map your data with Salim Sawara. So So I’m now starting to take even greater shape. I mean, I’m imagining that these other data overlays will impact thie. The way you’re visualize the data so circles or, you know, ever shape maybe large or small colored. They might be different. Different shapes were means everything. So you can bring all these different layers into one one one dimensional map. And a lot of the data is popping out just as you’re looking at different points on the map. Exactly. Okay, okay. Overlaying different kinds of data gives you an understanding of how things relate in a way that you really could never get. If you’re looking at it in a spreadsheet or a report or some sort of narrative form, much richer. Sure. Okay, let’s spend some time talking about the different geo coding tools. So So where do we start? What you have? Recommendations, I hope specific tools and resource is Yeah, I mean, there’s there’s geo coating is one of the kinds of things that people do with JS. There’s tools that allow you to do that in a Web environment. Their desktop mapping tools that support geo coding butt joke owning is one of the one of the processes are analytical. Process is that someone would do with G s. Okay, well, let’s start with Suppose you wanted to do a desktop. You’re gonna keep this simple initially and you want you want it for yourself in your office. You have some tools you can recommend. Yeah. I mean, for the tools that ezri offers. We have a non-profit program where we make our technology available for free to non-profits. There’s small administrative fees and effectively with with every technology. Arc js isra I said s story. It’s OK. You made it sound like I’m a kayman institute or something. All right? And ah, we eso inter desktop software. There’s Ah, there’s Ah, a couple of different utilities or tools that would allow somebody to basically point a geo coding tool at their data set, and it would return a bunch of dots on a map. The same thing could be done in a Web tool that we have called our joyous online, where somebody would basically upload their spreadsheet. The geo coding process would be run against it and same output. You’d end up with a bunch of dots on a map or whatever your data, maybe. Okay, um, are there others you can recommend? Ah. Besides, every tool there’s, there’s lots of other energy A cutting things out there. Google Maps does geo coding. I think open street map has a G o coder. There’s lots of different options out there. I’m not as familiar with others as I am with ones that we try to be Galateri. Yeah, sure. No problem shouting out the every day, every tools, though. That’s fine. Okay, Um all right. That’s a That’s a great, you know, explanation of the process way. Have a lot of time left with another ten minutes or so. Yeah, And what else? What else is in this topic well on geo cutting really is is the tip of the iceberg, right? It’s how you get started and getting your data onto map. Well, where it really gets interesting is toe whatyou were highlighting a minute ago, right where you start overlaying different kinds of information that give context to your data, understanding the socioeconomic profile of neighborhood kids, where you may be working, or where your volunteers are where your donors are. One of the big things that we’re talking to a lot of people about this week or that they’re interested in, is how do I find more people like the donors that we’re working with today? Or how do I find more volunteers like the ones that were working with? All right, um, and this is a very similar thing to what businesses do with location information right tto find customers. But in the non-profits world, it may be a Organizations have a database with their donors or their volunteers. They put those onto a map. They’re able to identify what air the demographic characteristics of those individuals based on their location. And then it’s really easy to go and ask questions like, where are other places where we find the kinds of people that I’m wanting to engage rating people. Exactly. So that’s one of the big things that we see non-profits doing with our technology, whether that’s defined more donors or volunteers or more of the beneficiary population that they’re trying to support in some way. Now, commercial sites are doing this cos retailers exactly its banks, health care, how Starbucks decides where it’s going to put its next store. We’re named the business. It’s what I can imagine. I can imagine the rich data they must have about location of the what, what, what makes a story successful? Exactly, and and the kinds of characteristics of people that they find to be their best customers. Yeah, it’s effectively the same sort of question for a non-profit. You’re just trying to find donors or members or volunteers or beneficiaries, as opposed to customers. Come and yeah, it’s the same sort of thing. Also, that big logistics companies, ups, FedEx and others air using tio figure out how to get their packages. Two people in the most effective way on. That’s another. That’s interest of how non-profits could use Julius. All right, say a little more about what? Ah, package delivery service ups is how it’s using. So you mean like planning their daily planning the route for an individual truck each day? This is all this is all geo GS. This’s a GS problem, right? There’s in the numbers. All site won’t be exactly accurate. But you know, UPS has millions of packages that they need to deliver each day. They have tens of thousands of vehicles and drivers that are doing that work. They’ve got hundreds of thousands of locations that they’re delivering to and many different, you know, kind of factors that would affect which trucks and drivers they assigning jobs, too. GPS helps them tio analyze that problem. Ah, optimize the distribution of deliveries across that network of vehicles and drivers and get things to the places that they’re trying to go as quickly and efficiently and effectively as possible. There’s, you know, non-profit organizations who are running big logistics operations is well. We do a lot of work with U. N World Food Program, who faces many of these same pro problems trying to identify you know how to get re sources to the places that are needed as effectively and efficiently as possible. Where do you preposition resource is so that they’re accessible to people when they need them. But you could have many similar problems that smaller scales for non-profits who need Teo, you know, get volunteers to all of the places in their community that are needed to help with the trash pick up day or whatever the whatever the issue of the concern. Maybe so a lot of the data that you might be might be mapping is not data that you have that you have. So now we’re going beyond but might be data on economic socioeconomic status of a community, a block, a town might be racial distribution, shin education profiles, health care, healthcare outcomes. Absolutely. All right, so you know a lot of external data. So you then you map what? You’re what? You’re where your services are to where they’re needed exactly. And we take advantage of the open data movement that’s taking place around us, right? There’s lots of data that’s available from government at a national level, a state level, a county level. We invest quite a bit as a company and trying to make that open data accessible and usable for people so that they don’t have to do all the work of kind of bringing data together and putting it into, ah, a form that can be used in a GS. But, um, yeah, Isra and many of the different partners that we worked with in the non-profit space and government are making data services available that people congrats and mash up into, you know, Web maps with their own data and see, you know, beyond themselves. What is the landscape that they’re working in, the people, they’re trying to serve all of those things. But what’s your opinion of the Facebook data? We’re digressing now. Data data collection policies not sharing with non-profits, for instance, donordigital. When someone makes a gift on Facebook, you know they won’t reveal the data. I’m not sure I’m really even familiar that so if somebody’s making donations through face-to-face xero non-profit, you can’t get the you can’t get contact information. You can’t get the person’s email. I’m not sure they give. They might give Now. I figure they must give name, but non-profits have a have a big information void there. It’s It’s very, very hard for them to acknowledge that gift, so I’m not even sure that I know they don’t give email. I’m not even sure if they give name, and that’s hardly unique. But yes, that’s a problem. Yeah, it’s an interesting question. I’m not. I wasn’t really aware of that. But it’s ah. You know, I guess I could imagine it’s a bit of Ah, Catch twenty two situation, right? Terms of the privacy concerns and things that they must be facing, but at the same time, providing a service in a way that really is is valuable to non-profits. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s a challenging situation. I’m not sure not sure I have a clear opinion. Okay, let’s go a little broader than around the social media platforms. And not just not just Facebook, but and and, uh, whether they share data, you know, you’re you’re very much an open data. Uh, company way sport. Open data will benefit from open data. So the social platforms that don’t make aggregated data available they holding his proprietary? Yeah, that’s you know, I think that’s in in many ways, that’s, ah, business model that is somewhat sort of foreign or separate from the work that we do our roles. We built technology. We work with government customers who are working with sensitive data healthcare organizations who have private information that they can’t share, and they need technology that allows them to work in a secure, more closed environment. Many of our customers want to be ableto leverage, open data that’s coming from other organizations or make their own data available to others. Martek, Nala ji supports that. The view that we take the approach we take his toe is to provide a platform that allows people to make their data available in the way that they want to and that makes sense for them. Um, we don’t take any right or ownership or license of data that people put in our platform or using our platform were simply providing technology that allows them to use their data in the way that they want to. OK, Salim, we have about another a minute left or so. So how would you liketo wrap this up? Encourage people? Yeah, I guess the I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you and your audience, and I just would say that you know, there’s a lot that changed with mapping and GS in the last you know, five years. It’s really easy to get started. It’s accessible to anyone. It doesn’t take a master’s degree or a phD to be able to get started using JS and spatial analysis. And there’s a lot of opportunity and value for non-profits to start doing simple things, like putting their date on a map, overlaying it with other kinds of information and getting a better understanding of where they’re working, who they’re working with, where the opportunities for them to have a bigger impact. So many questions could be answered that that they’re having difficulty with now. Yeah, all right. He’s Salim’s AWA manager at Isra. Don’t say it s Terry. It’s spelled S r I. It’s Ezri. Um All right, Selene, thank you very much. Thanks so much stunning. Real pleasure. Thank you for being with our coverage of nineteen. Ninety Si non-profit Technology Conference This interview brought to you by our partners at ActBlue free fund-raising tools Teo, help non-profits make an impact. Thanks for being with us next week. Mohr goodness from the non-profit Technology Conference. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on Tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits. Data driven and technology enabled. Twenty dahna slash pursuing capital P Bye weinger CPS Guiding you beyond the numbers ready cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations. Made easy Text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine. Ah, creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff, Sam Leave Luis is the line producer. Thie shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots Diner, Brooklyn’s. That’s right, Scotty. 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