Tag Archives: web accessibility

Nonprofit Radio for July 10, 2020: Digital Accessibility & Inclusive Design

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My Guests:

Laura Patch: Digital Accessibility
How to make your digital products more accessible. Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text, screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. (Part of our 20NTC coverage)

 

 

 

 

 

Nic Steenhout: Inclusive Design
Nic Steenhout says forget upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take, the point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. (Also part of our 20NTC coverage)

 

 

 

 

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[00:01:55.54] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with lateral epic condo leitess if you strained our relationship with the idea that you missed today’s show. Digital Accessibility. How do you make your digital products more accessible? Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. This is part of our 20 NTC coverage. Also inclusive design. Nick Steen How says Forget about upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take. The point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. This is also part of our 20 NTC coverage on Tony’s Take two Dismantling racism were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non profits? Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Here is digital accessibility. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit technology conference. We were supposed to be in Baltimore. The conference was canceled, but we are persevering, virtually irrespective. Our coverage of 20 NTC is sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund.

[00:02:20.44] spk_0:
Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? You can go to tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial.

[00:02:32.04] spk_1:
My guess now is Laura Patch. She is digital project manager for the Sierra Club. Ah, Laura. Welcome.

[00:02:33.74] spk_2:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:35.39] spk_0:
Uh, pleasure. I’m glad this worked out. And, uh, I know you’re well and safe and glad. Glad to hear that.

[00:02:41.64] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:02:54.94] spk_1:
Your ah topic is everyday accessibility. How everyone can make digital products more accessible? Why is this important for all for all

[00:02:55.93] spk_0:
nonprofits, irrespective of what proportion you think your users are. Your visitors are that with with disabilities.

[00:04:03.24] spk_2:
Um, So there is definitely a portion of the population that has permanent disabilities that we should be concerned with. They have high buying power. Um, disposable income that will on make them want to donate to your lovely non profit. And by having accessible, uh, digital products, you make sure that they can participate in your mission, but awesome. Their situational disabilities. If you think about the last time you took your cell phone out and it was great and funny and you couldn’t see your screen back, actually an acceptability issue. And if you focus on creating high contrast images like you would for somebody who has color vision problems, then you’re benefiting all the people using your website on their phone in break fun. So thinking about this situation, all ones will help your organization as well.

[00:04:04.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Thank you. I want people to understand that I’ve had NTC guests say that. I don’t know. It was a couple of years ago, since since we’ve covered accessibility, but yeah. Thank you. Um,

[00:04:30.74] spk_1:
there’s a little pause in the video. Um, So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna pause the recording. I’m gonna ask you to leave the meeting and come back in. Okay? I’m gonna pause now. All right, let’s see if

[00:04:31.92] spk_0:
this works a little better. Maybe not so much video hesitation. Um, so this is, uh you’re covering every digital product you say. Not just This is not just for websites.

[00:04:45.04] spk_2:
Correct? In my presentation, I talk about how to make your documents, your slides and a data visualisation more accessible.

[00:04:54.84] spk_0:
Okay, um, should we, uh, should we start with documents that Okay,

[00:05:23.84] spk_2:
Yeah, but, um, So one of the things that I suggest is to make sure that you use the actual heading setting whether you’re using Microsoft Word Google docks, whatever your platform is, um, this is important, because if you take text and inject, change the format of it, then screen readers can’t tell somebody that right? Whereas if you use heading one heading two heading three, a screenwriter will include that and what it reads to the person so it helps them navigate through your content.

[00:05:39.50] spk_0:
Uh, okay. I don’t think many people are doing that. I think most people just radio heading and then boldface it.

[00:05:49.94] spk_2:
Exactly. Yeah. You really want to take the time, Teoh Change it so it’s heading, and you can actually adapt style so that once you apply heading one, all of your heading ones have that style. It’s really actually easier work.

[00:06:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Right. Then you rather than you have to do it manually. Ok? Um okay. What else? What else? For documents.

[00:06:17.54] spk_2:
Um, this is one that people also frequently forget. We’re doing a better job on websites, but all images should have alternative text. Uh, that should be a no longer than two seconds is preferably even shorter than two sentences. It should describe what’s happening in the image without using words like image of photo of, um, and this again also helps with screen readers. It helps if the images loading slowly as well. So if you have poor Internet connection, you’re again on your cell phone. With no cell service, you can still tell what is conveyed in a image by the alternative text. Okay,

[00:06:49.11] spk_0:
why do you say, why do you not use the language photo of our image over something like that?

[00:06:55.94] spk_2:
Because the screen reader will tell people that it will say image, and then it’ll tell your alternative text so it’s repetitive to keep saying it. Describe what people might feed.

[00:07:10.17] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, Anything else with with images?

[00:07:12.54] spk_2:
No, not.

[00:07:14.04] spk_1:
Do you have to be concerned about color, color of our images or anything like that?

[00:07:30.34] spk_2:
If you’re gonna put text over the image than yes, you want to make sure that your image background in that text have Ah, High column, cross radio. There’s some places on the Internet You can check to make sure that that’s working well, but basically you want toe have either a light background with dark text or vice versa on. And if you can’t achieve that because a lot of things were happening in the image than doing some sort of floating background behind your text with playing around with capacity. I’m concerns that will work while too.

[00:08:05.43] spk_0:
OK, I’m sorry. What do you mean, capacity was the opacity. Opacity? Yes. Okay, I’ve seen that. All right, Opacity, SS. I’m trainable. Alright? Opacity, Of course. All right. Um, yeah. More documents, Sure. Sure.

[00:08:10.31] spk_2:
Yeah. So those are some good tips for documents? Um,

[00:08:14.85] spk_0:
was that it? Is that it for documents? Okay. Okay. Um, where should we go? Uh, uh, data visualization, right?

[00:08:24.14] spk_2:
Yeah. Expands more on that color stuff that we were just talking about. Where you go, you have high contrast colors. Um, you do have colors, like, Say, you have a graph that has five color. So it becomes really difficult to make sure that every single one of those colors have five contrasts. You want to add pattern.

[00:09:08.14] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As changes to paycheck protection program Loan forgiveness There have been many, but none this week. Congress skipped a week. Wegner hasn’t up to date free wagon. Or that explains the latest go to wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource Is and recorded events. Now back to digital accessibility with Laura Patch.

[00:09:42.04] spk_2:
So I have some visuals for this in my presentation. So let me see if I can describe it Well, um, imagine that you’re looking at a map of route map of buses, right, and you have five routes and there’s purple, blue, green, yellow, red. And if those arrows for the route across each other and you can’t tell the difference between purple and blue, you can’t tell where the route goes. But if you add a pattern to the color saying one of them is a stolid line and one of them is a dotted line, then you can continue to follow the path, even if you can’t tell the difference between those two colors.

[00:09:54.94] spk_0:
Okay, okay, good, Yeah,

[00:10:16.44] spk_2:
yeah, On this works in grafs as well. If you have a pie chart, my yourself makes this really easy. But you can do it in other programs where you can add patterns to your wedges. So do a light color in the background. And then do you hired darker color of the same shade, right? So it could be like blue with blue polka dots on top of it so that they can tell that high fly slice goes to whatever your label is on the side.

[00:10:30.09] spk_0:
Okay? And if you don’t do this, what is it? The problem that all the colors are gonna look similar to someone who has accessibility issues?

[00:10:39.64] spk_2:
Yes. If you can’t see colors than they can’t tell what high slice goes toe. What data point?

[00:11:05.96] spk_0:
Ok, um, same thing with bar charts. Is there anything same would apply to bar charges? Most pie charts? Um, graphs. You talked about lines? That’s the analogy. Analogy. There is the map. Right line. Line. Line line graphs. Okay, Okay. Yeah.

[00:11:31.99] spk_2:
The thing to think about right is that accessibility guidelines say you can’t use color alone to convey a meaning. So when you’re looking at graphs, you want to make sure that somebody can tell like if they can’t tell the difference between colors, they can still understand the information you’re trying to convey. Um, so another way to think about it is like if you’re looking at pins on maps, right, they might have different colors for restaurants. First days, uh, community service places, but you can’t tell the difference between those two colors. That doesn’t really help you if you add an icon to that pin suddenly like the icon of a fork tells you. But that’s an eatery versus just the color of the pen.

[00:11:52.74] spk_1:
Ah, I see. And then how will a reader interpret that?

[00:11:58.04] spk_2:
That’s an excellent question, usually aboard, to make sure that there is data labels as well. So label that as restaurant versus just the information.

[00:12:23.86] spk_0:
Okay, okay, I could see a mean a map. I’m just tryingto understand how a screen reader interprets, um, a map like that Local A. T M’s or gas stations. It can do

[00:12:59.08] spk_2:
that. Uh, maps. There were some of the most difficult things to make Fully accessible, said. There’s basically and if especially for a non developer person, it’s very difficult because there’s things you can put into the code of amount toe, give things, labels. Um, so most of the time If you’re thinking about accessibility from a non developer standpoint, you’re gonna be thinking about the visual ramifications. So those I Hans in your, um, in your pens, I always having a list of the information instead of just the map. Visual is really helpful to because the screen reader can read the list as opposed to the not itself.

[00:13:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, that makes sense. I was wondering if you’ve, uh, well, yeah, it wouldn’t make sense for the for people who don’t have a disability toe leave out a map and just do a list. But actually, so have both. Okay, the screen reader could make sense of the list. OK, OK. OK, um, anything else about data visualization?

[00:13:32.54] spk_2:
No, I think those are the key points for developers.

[00:13:38.74] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um what else? Uh, what what

[00:13:40.99] spk_1:
was the other category? You had

[00:13:42.84] spk_2:
a slides.

[00:13:44.44] spk_0:
Oh, for slides. Okay, Power point or Google slides. Okay.

[00:14:42.64] spk_2:
Um, so the same thing. Kind of occurrence for slides as it does for images and documents. You want to make sure you have that alternative text. Um, but the thing that’s unique about slides is that you want to make sure you’re paying attention to the order items are on. Um, if somebody can’t use a mouse, we’ll use the tab button on their keyboard. Um, and the order that your items on your slide are is the order that this screen reader will also like, read your side through. Right. So an easy way to test how a screen reader is gonna read your content to someone is to use that tab button and navigate as if you don’t have a mouse. Um, So, for example, if you want your slide title to be read first, you want to make sure that the first tab is that and I’ve seen a lot of slides where it will be the image, footer, slide content and then title. And you’re like, Well, this would make no sense it was going to be in that order. How

[00:15:00.60] spk_1:
do you change

[00:15:07.13] spk_0:
it? Is that the sequence with which you put them on the on the template slide as you’re making it? Have you control with the tab sequences?

[00:15:11.46] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s the default way. Feel like as you add things, that will be the order, but you can right click on any item on your slide and send it to the back. Send it to the front. Defended forward. Backwards. So you just want to play around with that until it’s the right order that you want.

[00:15:29.93] spk_1:
Oh, that’s what that

[00:15:30.75] spk_0:
thing means. Send forwards finback. Okay, okay.

[00:15:45.74] spk_2:
That can get a little tricky for designers, because it’ll be like putting Bill block certain things with another square or some things that you do have to pay attention. Tilly, if you’re destroying what is visually you showing as well. But for the most part, you want to make sure that cat order makes us

[00:16:09.44] spk_0:
okay. Okay? And and that applies, um, for either Google slides or Power Point. You just right. Click on some right click on an item, and that’s how you can set the sequence. Okay. Okay. Um, anything else slides? Slides wise.

[00:16:13.49] spk_2:
No, that’s right. For slides.

[00:16:24.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, should we should we say anything more about color choices overall? Well, we’re

[00:16:26.43] spk_2:
okay. There’s Cem programs that you can check your contrast levels, um, as well as develop a color palette that it’s accessible. Um, so if your organization hasn’t done much in accessibility, you might want to talk to your design team just toe. Tweak some of those colors to make sure that their high contrast I see our club actually just recently changed our color palette to make it more accessible so that we can use more color combinations,

[00:17:06.28] spk_0:
Can you, ah, name any of those resources that are available to check color contrast, and you can send us to,

[00:17:59.58] spk_2:
uh, mine. My favorite is color palette Accessibility Checker. It allows you to put your full color palette into their system and then check each color against all of the colors in your palette for that accessibility purpose. Um, if you’re Jeff checking two colors for contrast purposes. Web aim color contrast Checker is a really good one on both of those. Tell you a and double A levels. So the Web accessibility has level A. Which is the least, uh, the minimum that you need to dio Double A, which is what most organizations looking for and tripled a triple. It is very difficult to do when you kind of have toe constantly, maintain it toe, reach it. So if you’re thinking about all the lawsuits that are coming out about accessibility, they’re mostly talking about double standards.

[00:18:07.43] spk_0:
What are some of those lawsuits around our visual products.

[00:18:52.84] spk_2:
Yeah, the big one that came out in within the last year is the dominoes case. Um, somebody was trying to order pizza online, I think, actually through their up on and was unable to do so. So they sued dominoes for acceptability. Um, and won the case. Oh, okay. Do you want one of the things that we’re still trying to get figured out is the 88 definitely applies to digital products. Over those bases are considered public domain, like public public domain, but like the public space similar to if you walk into the restaurant. Um, but the congress hasn’t actually passed anything that’s told us what those guidelines are. So most people are using the web accessibility, Web content, accessibility guidelines as what be our gaming for, But it’s not legally state that yet.

[00:19:11.94] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. But it is a benchmark for for now, until the courts Yeah, decide on a standard. Okay. Um what else? What else should we be talking about?

[00:19:34.94] spk_2:
Um uh oh. I have one more resource that might be helpful, but for people. But it’s called the color blindness simulator. Um, and it allows you to upload an image and then check different ways of color blindness. Though it’ll stimulate a red color blindness, the blue color blindness. So you can see what that image looks like if somebody can’t feel the images.

[00:19:51.34] spk_1:
Okay. And what is that again? Color

[00:19:53.81] spk_2:
color blindness in later

[00:19:57.54] spk_0:
simulator. Okay. Okay. Um, those are excellent. You ticked off like dozens of I don’t know to Doesn’t things or something. Excellent. Um, you leave it there. Does that sound like

[00:20:06.74] spk_2:
a

[00:20:07.39] spk_0:
good coverage? Okay. Cool. Uh, thank you very much. Laura Patch. She is digital product manager at the Sierra Club. Laura, Thank you very much.

[00:20:16.87] spk_2:
Thank you.

[00:20:22.24] spk_0:
And thank you for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of the the virtual 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software.

[00:21:47.29] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountains software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you were That has features you need and exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take two. You’re dismantling racism journey. That’s our newest special episode, and it’s out. You will have a long journey. So start with this single step. My guest is pretty itchy. Shaw. She’s president and CEO of Flourished Talent Management Solutions. Starting where you are with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you gather data about racist structures that are right under your nose? Who do you invite to the conversation? She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on. She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on YouTube If you want to wait for the video, that is Tony’s Take two. Now it’s time for inclusive design with Nick Steen. How welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:21:58.79] spk_0:
profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference were sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. With Me Now is next in how he’s an independent accessibility consultant. Nick. Welcome.

[00:22:06.64] spk_3:
Hey, tony. Thanks for having me. Really nice to chat with you.

[00:22:10.24] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m very glad we could work this out virtually. And, uh and it’s good to know that you’re well and safe outside Vancouver, British Columbia.

[00:22:20.40] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s difficult times, but we’re staying safe yet.

[00:22:32.10] spk_0:
Alright, Alright, um, your NTC topic is forget accessibility. Think inclusive design s O. What is it about accessibility that you want us to? Who forget?

[00:24:41.84] spk_3:
I think that when we’re focusing on Leon excess stability, we’re forgetting that accessibility is good for everyone. No, As as an individual with a disability myself, I will never forget that implementing where backs disability is above and beyond for people with disabilities to be able to use the web. But if we’re thinking Onley in those terms, we tend to forget that, uh, making sure color contrasts are good. You know, you’re not using great text on great background. That’s good for people with low vision. But it’s also good for you when you’re using your mobile device and full sun when you’re talking about making sure the the target area for ah click is big enough for someone who has cerebral policy and doesn’t have fine motor control to click on that little check box. It’s also good for someone that has big fingers and trying to fill a form on the bus or public transit. Uh, when we’re talking about plain language, we’re also talking about? Well, maybe maybe someone has a functional in permit. Maybe it’s a young mom with a very young baby that has colic. So she’s trying to juggle a sick baby in one hand and read up information on her mobile phone on the other. And the cognitive load is very, very impacted. So there’s all these things that are really important for people with disabilities, but that I also happen to benefit everybody a little bit like in the physical world. We started implementing curb cuts that was good for wheelchair users. Sauce good for parents pushed airs for their kids, for delivery people with it appears on unstable. You, um, you may have to edit me and post.

[00:25:08.14] spk_0:
Yeah, let’s keep going. Ah, lot of times the, uh, the the way it appears is not. The word is not what’s getting recorded. I’ve had that happen a couple times, so we’ll just Kentucky as long as we can still hear each other. Yeah, um, and if the video becomes unusable, then we’ll just do the audio. Yeah. Also cuts also help those of us who are pulling luggage. Yep.

[00:25:28.39] spk_3:
So it’s it’s really a question of universal access. And when we’re start thinking about what we’re doing, we really should talk about inclusive design. It’s it’s going from, um it’s going from situation that are equal, but different to situation where everyone can benefit.

[00:25:35.96] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. What is your own disability?

[00:25:41.02] spk_3:
I’m a wheelchair user.

[00:25:49.59] spk_1:
Okay. Does that impact screen use? No, it

[00:27:10.24] spk_3:
doesn’t. Not for me. Um, but I’ve had a situation where I was, Um, a few years ago, I managed to broke a wrist because I slid on ice in my I can’t out of the sidewalk felon in the street broke arrest. So I had a problem moving around, obviously. And about a week later, I broke the other risk in a car accident. So I was severely impaired from being able to use the keyboard. Normally, type about 80 words minute. And when that happened, I was starting to fingers and it was very, very awkward. Eso having been a an accessibility expert for a large number of years, I was also faced with having to to learn things I knew were there on you. The tools, for example, Dragon, naturally speaking, to be able to to speak to the computer for, for interacting and you all that I had used all that in testing. But the point was really brought home about no. As a wheelchair user, I realized the barriers in the physical world. But as, um, as a suddenly web disabled user, I had to relearn all these things again.

[00:27:53.64] spk_0:
Yeah, I see how deeply personal this is for you. Um, I’ve had guests on talking about accessibility. I know we’re supposed to You wanna think inclusive design? But those guests were framing it as accessibility on and, uh, I’ve never heard anyone mention the size of a radio button the size of anything that you need to click on as being difficult to land on for someone with cerebral palsy Or, I guess, other neuro muscular disabilities as well. Yeah. Um,

[00:29:18.64] spk_3:
yeah, it In general, we tend to to know about accessibility for screen reader users because it’s been the most obvious. The biggest barrier is for people that are have vision impairments and then rely on SSF technology like screen reader users. But the fact is, there’s a whole range of disabilities that effect using the Web. There’s obviously people with no vision or low vision There’s people with hearing impairments that, for example, if there’s no transcript for your show, they’re not gonna be able to interact with the shore or get material out of the show. But aside a side issue to someone who is born deaf and grows up deaf. Where American Sign language is their first language. The grandma, the structure of the language, is so completely different from English. So when they’re interacting with content, a lot of these native SL users English is their second language. And then if we don’t try to in plain English, it makes content difficult to digest. There’s just all kinds of little things that if it’s not something we’re used to, or we don’t stop to think about it, there’s impact all over the place.

[00:29:43.54] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Yeah. Um, let’s see. So, um, how should we? How shall we continue? Um, and there are other. Are there other design concepts I ideas that you want to share, just like your listing them and explaining them? Or should we approach this some other way?

[00:29:46.94] spk_2:
Oh,

[00:31:33.78] spk_3:
sure. If we’re gonna use video, let me share. You’re one of the a couple of the slides. I have in my, uh, in my deck for the presentation, which might actually bring something to to the viewers. Um, we’re tired, King a lot about, um, equality making the Web equal for everyone. And in this slide, I have an image of, uh, three kids, very short kid, the middle height kid in a tall kid looking at a ball game over a fence, and they’re all on, uh, all on the box. That allows them to be a little bit higher, but the box is the same height for everyone’s. The very tall kid gets to see very well above defense. But the very short kids still can’t see above it if we contrast that to equity, which is a concept that we’re talking a lot about Is that well, they’re very talk. It does not need any boxes to see over defense. The kid that’s no halfway between the two can use one box and he can see over the box and then a very short kid. If you stack two of those boxes suddenly he can see over defense. So we’re talking of an equitable situation, and that’s one of the concept that I want people to realize is we have to stop thinking about access abilities in terms of equality, but we really should start thinking about it in terms of equity. But if we push further, um

[00:31:52.69] spk_0:
and thank you, Nick, for explaining what’s on the slides because, ah, lot of people won’t be seeing the video. It’s an audio podcast. And then if our video is good, I’ll put that on the YouTube channel. But most people are just getting audio through the podcast. So you’re thank you for sounding like a screen reader as you describe what’s in the

[00:33:54.14] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned that it’s something I’ve gotten used to do, and I do. Presentations is that I rarely put visuals up on the slide that I won’t take time to explain because I don’t know who in my audience has vision issues. I don’t know who may not be able to process an image. They’re better at processing the odor words then then what they’re seeing. So I always try Teoh to make sure that I describe what’s going on because it just it just makes on. Um, the other thing is that, um, when we’re thinking about this relationship between equality and equity. We could also start thinking about barrier free, which is the step beyond that, which is really thinking inclusively if in our thinking process, we think about whichever thing we design. And that includes offense, where we have to go through the process of what would be an equal experience, what would be an equitable experience? How about we do offense that everybody can see through without needing boxes to get up? So in this image, I have the same three kids an offence. But instead of being a psyllid plank fence, it’s actually a wire friends that everybody can see through. So I really want people to shift thinking from this idea of us versus them, people with disabilities and people without disabilities, disabled people versus abled people. I want to get people started to think about. We’re all in this together, and we have to build barrier free, um, environments, whether it’s in the built environment or on the Web. So it’s really important to to start that shift in thinking

[00:35:32.74] spk_0:
okay on, and it’s sort of, um, um, I don’t know if revolutionary is too strong a term, but you’re you definitely want to shift that you run a shift, at least if not if not revolutionary, it’s ah, It’s a substantial movement from where people are thinking now, Um, my sense of it is ah, lot of Web and I and I guess we shouldn’t even limited to websites. But because all digital products, right, Whether it’s ah, yeah, we’re a word document using headings, using the headings, um, format versus you, writing the text and then highlighting it Which reader isn’t gonna recognize? So it’s all it’s all digital products, not we’re not only talking about websites. Um, my sense is that most of the thinking is that you create something and then maybe you go back and try to adapt it, which would be, you know, uh, adding, adding the same, that would be your will be the first picture that you just showed, which would be changing it. What changing the way it appears for everybody or the ways design you have the way it appears for everybody. After I’ve already done my design and creation. Then I go back and yeah, and ad code for ah screen reader. Let’s say all right. My sense is that that’s the more prevalent on yeah, more prevalent methods methods.

[00:38:24.82] spk_3:
That is what’s happening mostly out there. We really want to shift the thinking in terms of thinking about accessibility from the get go. Obviously, in our my my talking about accessibility, I never forget. The primary goal of this is making things work for people with disabilities because we have such a need to access information, quicks example. So much of the information now is Onley available online because of the coronavirus. But so many of the size that provide that information is not available because they’re not accessible. So we have. We have a failure of the system for people with disabilities accessing information, which is critical and even, maybe vital. So we want to think about accessibility from the very early phases off the first design, where this wire frame or even just concepts, one of the complaint. A lot of the people I interact with and have done for over 25 years that have been involved in this wonderful world is that people say, Hey, Nick, accessibility. Yeah, I get it, but it’s so expensive, and then I start telling them about and experience from my own life uh, I know someone who built house, and they just had two steps under the entrance and the door was fairly narrow, you know, it was 28 inch door or something like that. 30 inch? Not sure. And then they became a wheelchair user and they had to retrofit the house. They had to actually remove the front door. They had to remove bricks around the front door to make a bigger opening. They had to put a ramp in. And of course, that was very expensive. But had they actually build house that was accessible in the first place? Had they put in a door that was wider and had no step entrance? That added cost at the time of building would have been maybe three, maybe 5% mawr, instead of costing tens of thousands of dollars to To fix digital accessibility is the same thing. If you build it accessibly in the first place, it won’t cost you any more because in theory your designers, your developers, your quality and assurance testers everybody in that chain and that workflow should be having the skills and the knowledge to build it accessibly. Now the reality is and doesn’t always happen, but, um, it’s good. So exists. Ability does not have to be expensive and can be baked in from the start. A little bit like blueberry muffins. Have you ever tried to bake blueberry muffins and put the blueberries after the muffins are cooked? It’s not gonna work.

[00:39:23.22] spk_0:
Have not have not tried that. Now, Um, the only reference I could think about in, uh, popular culture blueberry muffins made That makes me think of the movie. Ah, casino. Where the The head of the casino, Um uh, tells the baker that he wants, um, the same number of blueberries in every muffin because he just cut open a muffin that had very few. And his breakfast companion had ah dozen in his And, uh, so and that. But that’s not what you’re talking about. Sorry. That’s a silly digression. I like movies. Um, and casino is a very good one.

[00:39:55.02] spk_1:
Time for our last break turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know that turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard. So people know you’re a thought leader in your field, and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for inclusive design from 20 NTC.

[00:40:00.61] spk_0:
Any other idea what other ideas do you want to share around inclusive design?

[00:43:23.50] spk_3:
For me, one of the other important concept to think about his accessibility is not a checklist. We’re using standards and guidelines. For example. The standard right now for checking it for site is accessible. Not is the Web content accessibility guidelines Version 2.1. That’s the most recent version of the guidelines. And if we’re going through that, we end up using a checklist. Our ultimate images have alternate attribute. Can we get through to all the elements on the Web page using the keyboard? Only is there enough contrast between text and background? And there’s There’s a long list. There’s like nearly 80 success criteria, and each of them have specific testing checkpoints to to look at. But if we think Onley in terms of conforming to the standard, we’re falling back into this trap of looking at putting the blueberries back in the muffin after the muffins have been baked. We’re looking at basically the minimal amount of work we need to do to get away with with it to not be sued, for example, whereas I really want people Teoh thinking in terms of, we want our website to be usable by as many people as possible with as little difficulty as possible. So we should think about getting away from accessibility In terms of checklist. The checklist is useful as a way of getting a pulse of the health of our website, but we have to look at everything else as well. And if we’ve thought about Texas ability from the very early stages of the project, then at that point that should be fairly easy. The checklist is just there as a safeguard, but we’re looking also at the best practices. For example, a ramp you’re looking at a ramp in the built environment. The Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines called for ramp to have no more than one in 12 radiant. That means the ramp doesn’t go longer than a shorter than 12 foot. For every foot of height it goes up, and that’s a minimum. Most people would, uh, mobility impairments should be able to do that. But what about putting a ramp that is with a gentle slope where it’s one and 15? Maybe it’s not gonna hurt anything. You’re just adding a couple feet to your ramp. Nine times out of 10. You don’t have a space limitation to do that. And suddenly you’ve made it easier for everyone. So thinking. In terms of digital accessibility, we can think about similar issues. For example, color contrast. The guidelines says you have to have a contrast of 4.5 to 1 to be sufficient for people with low vision. How about you? Do you use something like sticks to one? You increase the contrast a little bit, use better colors. Maybe you use a folded font appropriately. And at that point, you’ve you’ve gone beyond checklist and you’ve made the site more usable or usable for everyone.

[00:43:50.10] spk_0:
Yeah, all right. Beyond the standard of beyond the beyond the minimum standard. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:51.16] spk_1:
You make a distinction

[00:43:55.07] spk_0:
between disability and impairment. Could you flush that out, please?

[00:45:05.09] spk_3:
Yeah. I’m coming at it from having worked in the independent living movement for for a number of years, where one of the basic concept is my disability is not the fact that I use a wheelchair. My disability is the fact that you have 15 steps to get into your building. My disability is not that I’m blind, but that you’re not offering alternative format for your menu. Uh, so we’re talking about the difference between a condition and a disability. The impairment is I’m wheelchair user joys blind, Julius deaf. Those are the impairments, the condition. The disability comes into effect when society builds environments that have barriers. So in effect, the disability has not come from within. The disability comes from without. If you build something that has barriers, you disabled me. And that, I think, is a very important distinction to make.

[00:45:34.77] spk_0:
Yeah, very good. Yeah. I could see how this is. Like I said, deeply personal for you. Um, and you think you’ve been thinking about these things for decades? These these concepts, um, and the disabilities that the culture of the society has has built the disabilities that society has built. Um, how do you want to Ah, you want to wrap up, please.

[00:46:44.41] spk_3:
I’d like to leave people with one message about accessibility. It’s a continuum. it’s not a bill. I’ll or in all you know, it’s not because you feel you can’t make everything accessible that you shouldn’t even try. The more you do it to, more accessible things are gonna be and start now, just starting now, make little changes. Your you know your webs that doesn’t use headings. See if you can implement headings. Look at the little things you can do the low hanging fruits, because the more you put in, the easier is gonna be for more people to use your your site or your documents. Whether it’s pdf word whichever Web based resource is, start now and do as much as you can without necessarily worrying about being an expert. That’s done this for 20 years. Um, talk to people about excess abilities, see what they suggest and try to implement in your in your workflow in your website whether you know you’re the executive director of non profit that never really thought about it and start thinking about it. Start the discussion.

[00:46:58.82] spk_0:
Thank you. Next in help Independent accessibility. Consultant. Thank you very much for sharing neck.

[00:47:04.38] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. It’s been a pleasure.

[00:47:06.61] spk_0:
My pleasure. Please stay safe outside Vancouver and thank you very much for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? Thanks a lot for being with us

[00:47:58.98] spk_1:
next week. More from 20 anti sees Smart speakers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO

[00:48:29.56] spk_0:
creative producer is Fair Meyer Family Sure profit other 95% go out

[00:48:48.37] spk_7:
and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for May 31, 2019: Tech Accessibility & Resilience & Sustainable Impact

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Keith Casebonne & Aurora Holder: Tech Accessibility
Keith Casebonne and Aurora Holder want you to advocate for accessible tools that will make all workers more efficient. From 19NTC, Keith is at Disability Rights Florida and Aurora is from Disability Rights Wisconsin.





Ananda Leeke & Meico Whitlock: Resilience & Sustainable Impact
Ananda Leeke and Meico Whitlock want you to use tech with intention and foster a culture of resilience. They’ve got lots of strategies for mindfulness and intention. Do you know the Eisenhower Matrix? Also from 19NTC, Ananda is with Ananda Leeke Consulting and Meico is the Mindful Techie.





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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of Bobby’s aosis if you ticked me off with the idea that you missed today’s show. Tech Accessibility Keith Castle Bon and Aurora Holder want youto advocate for accessible tools that will make all workers more efficient from 19 NTC. Keith is that disability rights Florida and Aurora is from Disability Rights, Wisconsin and Resilience and Sustainable Impact. Ananda Leak and Miko Whitlock. I want you to use tech with intention and foster a culture of resilience. They’ve got lots of strategies for mindfulness and intention. Do you know about the Eisenhower Matrix? Also, that is from in-kind teen NTC. Ananda is with Ananda Leak Consulting, and Miko is the mindful techie. I’m Tony Steak, too. Be a good American. We’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising, data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner CPS Guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations made easy Text. NPR to 444999 Here are Keith Castle Bon and Aurora Holder. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 1990 si It’s a non-profit technology conference were at the convention center in Portland, Oregon, and this interview, like all our 19 ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by our partners at Act Blue Free. Fund-raising Tools help non-profits make an impact with me Now are Keith Castle Bon on Aurora. Holder. Keith is the technology and communications manager for disability rights, Florida and Aurora. Holder is manager at Disability Rights Wisconsin. Welcome to each of you. Thanks for having us. Welcome is disability rights in every state in the country you’re representing Wisconsin and Florida. Is there one in every every state? Correct. There is its federally mandated. Oh, okay, okay. I mean, the organization is federally mandated, but what do you mean? Having protection and advocacy organization that’s independent from the government is federally mandated in each state. So what, Like you have an independent kind of watchdog to look at, like, institution that might be practicing, you know, inhumane practices against the clients they would having this independent agency that comes and overlooks that because it’s really hard. Maybe the government to regulate. That is, it was rolled out because they were seeing so many atrocities and nothing was being done about it. So they decided you need to be an independent agency from the government, although we’re funded by the government. But we need to have that ability to come in and look at that. But we do have elevated writes that maybe other organizations we have to look at records and things like that. Are you also funded by individual gifts as well? You fund-raising? You okay? So it’s not not unlike the Legal Aid Society krauz required by law to have defense available on DH. It’s partially funded by government. Then they also do their own fund-raising. Well. Essentially, the federal government gives us money to be the watchdogs for our individual states for disability rights. So it’s kind of interesting concept that I think different in a lot of other non-profits out there. Let’s talk about the advantages to having well being a tech accessibility advocate toe having having technology be accessible on DH. The advantages, too. The world at large, not advances don’t only accrue to those who have specially need accessibility. Is that my I like going in the right direction. Aurora. Yeah, what are what are some? What’s the fight to make the case? Aside from the legal requirement? What? What would I say? It’s a tech. A accessibility advocate. How about I start making the case in my organization that what we’re trying to focus on is making sure that people know that you know, accessibility way? Want to move towards a universal like everything is available to everyone like your software isn’t just available to certain pop population that you’re looking at how to make a universal and so that’s a lot what were focusing on and what’s the advantage to doing that, um, that you’re hitting a wider audience because there’s so many disability, you can’t you can’t just do one little thing and accessibility. There’s so many things we’re trying to cover such a wide, wide net, that just looking at it in the different approach of making it universal, versus what makes sense for me as a developer or whoever is creating them thing that they’re going in there. They’re really looking at it in a lot of different ways, teething about all the different users that might be using it. Also, there’s like money, incentives. You’re when you’re not making a software like shopping out that’s accessible, then you’re you’re losing out on a bunch of people that cannot act, you know, by stuff on your website. You’re on because they have economic power. But you’re not. You’re not accessing. Yeah, Keith, what can you have the outset here? Well, on the plus side of making things accessible, you’re also making them usable for everyone. And in fact, one of the things that will showing our session is that a lot of accessible technologies out there end up helping people who don’t maybe technically have a disability. S o. How is that flush that out a little bit? How does that work? What are some examples of that? Well, so one product that we’re going to mention eyes, a piece of software that you can put on your computer screen to adjust the colors and brightness of the images on. That’s good for people who might have get migraines for looking at their screen. Uh, we’re just getting headaches, dizziness, whatever. This software can actually make it easier for you to sit at your desk and do your job, which is great for people with disability. But I know people without disabilities that use that all the time just to help get there. Get through there. Day, Okay? No. What are the standards that disability rights is enforcing? Is there there a code? How do you measure whether there’s compliance or not against against what set of standards? Well, there’s so there’s originally there was a section five away, which is law from the seventies, that mandates that any government entity needs to be accessible, and that goes into services and other things. Now, of course, in the 19 seventies, you know we didn’t have websites. We have a lot of technology we have today, but that law has been broadly interpreted to include those things. Thie, Americans with Disabilities Act in 18 90 also adds to that a good bit on Does talk about technology to some degree? Uh, other than that, there’s not a lot of specific laws in America that other countries have different laws in America. That’s kind of where the laws end. But then, too, on top of that, there’s a lot of accessibility guidelines out there that you can follow one that really is common is the world. Our Web consortium has their Web accessibility, content guidelines. That is sort of like a framework to make sure that websites are accessible, for example. So okay, are there they’re specific tools. Are we able to talk about specific tools and resource is for for making your sight accessible? Um, well, our our session in particular isn’t trying to focus on websites. Actually, because there is so many accessible website, you’re not Okay, So we’re trying to focus on as I t manager attacked person in your organization. Anybody dealing with technology that you’re thinking about how to make what you’re putting out there accessible like that could be your instructions. That could be just an e mail that you’re sending to your staff. Video training videos, like all kinds of stuff that people would have to, um do as part of training e-giving staff information is accessible and not assuming that your entire staff, I have told you, like if they had a disability and what they could do to accommodate it because they’re way did find statistically that there could be upwards of 30% or more of unreported disability. You know, like people that just aren’t saying anything, and that’s fine there. You know, they don’t have to reveal all that, but making sure that you’re thinking about that, not putting you know, your head in the sand, just pretending like, Oh, well, you know, I don’t need to put all text on that image that of that screen shot I did in my instructions. Like, you know, you know, it probably won’t affect anybody in the staff, but you don’t know there’s somebody that uses the screen reader every day, Teo, because maybe their vision’s going Or there’s a variety reasons. People you screen rears its not just for people that are blind, you know, and just being more cognisant of different types of disabilities in ways you can. You can make easy adjustments. Or it could just be someone that’s has time, keep, you know, being keeping track of time. Or they’re you know, they’re just going on and they’re, you know, working on stuff, and they can’t seem to keep focus. There’s there’s all kinds of things that you could be aware of that could help that, and being people in the field, we’re seeing that with people And if you’re not realizing what’s out there than you’re not helping those individuals realized because they don’t may not realize what tools are out there. Yeah, okay, it’s time for a break. Pursuing you are the first impressions. The sea book is still up. How to combine Strategy analytics and Creative to captivate new donors and keep them coming back? That’s their e book on donor acquisition. Had to make that great first impression so that donors stay with you. And don’t just make that one gift and then trail off as we know Don’t have attention is like 75%. You don’t want that. You get the book through the listener landing page. It’s at tony dot m a slash pursuant with the capital P for please. Now back to tech accessibility. So alright, this’s the with the what the team is putting out for for general consumption or just for within their own team. It’s you she’s thinking about organizational levels organization wide. Yeah, OK, yeah. So examples you mentioned. Example User guides. What else? What else should listen to be thinking about what? Even if they may be, they don’t even have their own team but right related related to tech. What kinds of things should be conscious of that? That that should be tech? That should be accessible, right? Well, we’re moving to all these cloud APS and stuff, but nobody’s really test like a lot of them aren’t accessible, actually to screen readers and other technology assistive technology that would help people disabilities read or submit things to it. So are you evaluating that before you purchase that software so that you are like, Let’s say you have a online recruitment software that you’re using? Teo Get in people that they can apply in your website? Well, if it’s a screenwriter, can’t read the form fields and, you know, look through it and pushing cement. Then they’re not applying for that job, screening out all those people who could be accommodated but can’t apply right? Sure, Keith has some more samples. Okay, well, And in the office, for example, You know, your office manager buys a new copier, and I wouldn’t give a thought to anything about accessibility, but someone on your staff eyes in a wheelchair, and they can’t open the lid or reach the control panel. Now there are copies out there that the control panel flips down, and so it becomes accessible when there’s handles to lift him up, you know, closed the lid. So there’s they’re out there. The solution’s air out there. But you have to put a little time and effort into finding them. And and that’s the kind of things we try to promote awareness of because it’s not that anyone means that he harmed anybody. They’re just not sort of thinking that far ahead. Exactly. So we want to make him a lot more aware. Especially something. So ordinary is a copier. Exactly. You wouldn’t think I use it. Fine. You know what? It’s obvious when you say it, um, so I’d like to raise more consciousness. So what else? What are the things in the office tech wise? Should be conscious of that we may not be, Well, any software that anyone uses, which we’ve already touched on, a little bit of cloud acts, that sort of thing. You want to make sure that you know, if you’re if you’re an organization, this client base, like most non-profits are you want to know that you’re your client database system is accessible. You might. You might buy something that looks great, has all the features. One. And then you set up the implemented. You take months, and the gentleman that uses the screen reader goes toe access that software and finds out this wasn’t making any sense to me. I can’t. I can’t follow what I need to do. And if you if you if you If you build that sort of accessibility testing into your purchasing your framework requirements are P, whatever, exactly then then you could you confront. You could work with that. And you can. You can find the right tools out there which, in and of itself, could be a challenge. Because not every vendor is very forthcoming with, you know, they’ll tell you it’s accessible. Uh, even if it’s not, you really have to be vigilant. Do your own research because they want to make a sale. Would you have to ask, You know, are you compliant with these? You said the consortium has guidelines. So is your product that we’re considering compliant with these. I forget the name Well, there’s 65 away and Ada, and you’ll get a lot of blank stares. You ask these questions and they won’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Well, we’ll get back to you. We’ll talk. Let me talk to my boss and I can’t take any times. I’ve never heard back from them because they don’t really know what to say. So it’s something that you’ve got to do your own research, and it takes a lot of effort because the vendors aren’t very helpful. Okay. All right. Um, what else? But obviously your website, it should be possible that that one’s easy. There’s, I think, is a person to heightening accessibility culture that’s apart. We’re covering as well about called you in your organization, start making that step and changing the ideas of what you know, having people open up and think about Oh, man, we do that all the time. But I didn’t think about that in the way of accessibility in the work we do or planning for what? If you do hyre somebody that’s that has a disability on DH, then you didn’t You didn’t think about that when you purchased all that different technology for whatever that that might happen down the road. And so now you’re kind of, you know, you’re eliminating what they? Khun! D’oh! How do you start to change that culture? Aurora, would you start at the top or you have conversation down below And then bring it up You Khun Dio school combination of stuff just from like again You start saying, Well, I’m going to make you know, make sure all the stuff communications, digital communications that you’re sending out are accessible. I’m going to have a framework of when we’re evaluating software that I’m going to make sure that accessibility is Check your your building in this part of your assessment are ready. You’re going, Tio, apply the theory of universal design if you if you’re non-profit does create certain things like that’s more applicable if you’re doing, you know, actual designing of software and things. But I know some non-profits that do do that. They create aps, they do grassroot efforts things, and they should be aware of that. Things that they need to do to make sure that that’s universally designed Well, so everybody can be a part of that. I’m thinking through my list here. Leadership to leader leader shevawn buy-in. It has got to be critical walking in other people’s shoes, testing it yourself, have you, you know, gone and taken put installed a screen. And there’s lots of free ones out there that you can put on your computer and, like go through maybe a sight or form or software anything and just run through it and see, Is it Can I get through this and sometimes showing that to your superiors? If you can actually demo it and make it something real, then you know that makes it more real to him. They see it and they say, Oh, wow, I didn’t realize that such and such of are, you know, products it won’t work. If this individual is blind, let’s say, or or or whatever Those are Roger’s point. You hyre someone in the future. Yeah, exactly. Who needs these accommodation? Right? And if your product is working, like on an app or something that goes out to the public again, you don’t want to find out after the fact that such you know someone can’t access you’re at because it doesn’t have the accessibility features built in. But you can demo the process before you put something out and show it to a superior to the director that goes a long way to getting them to sort of start to change the culture in on then that no two vendors not only sometimes you create something, not something you know, A lot of days of databases are remade, you know, serums. You could test that. But sometimes you get something made for you, like a website, or you know, So it’s checking with them and really, are the references legit? Are they? Do they really care about accessibility of the hiring staff that are trained to look at those things? Is that part of their value system? Looking at that, I had a time before you jump into a big project where we just got this really big, beautiful website, but most of it’s inaccessible. I think we’ve tried both actually schooled vendors on the fact that their software was inaccessible when they didn’t know the insert, we’d end up testing it and say, Well, by the way, it does not work with Screen Reader. It has this problem. Is this flaw etcetera? And then they’re just Oh, okay. Do they always make changes? Not necessarily. But you put him on the spot. If there If there, uh, if they’re unaware, then you kind of you can show them and, you know, at least maybe a few of them will make a change. Hyre Remember you mentioned cloudgood a lot of cloud platforms or not screen meter accessible. I mean, we’re like, like software like databases and things like that, like Microsoft’s doing a really good after and making accessibility of priority for them. So, like if it’s maybe your whole Google, too. I mean, they’re all there realizing that they have to make their products, they have to fall that universal design principle, right? But then there’s a lot of, like, you know, people that create software, that they don’t have it as part of their value system that they make sure their designers and developers are understand universal sign, understand what makes a software accessible and aren’t thinking in that mind sat at all. And so they just hyre, you know, whoever, and they don’t train them. Maybe some are good, and they don’t. That doesn’t matter in the train after the fact and be part of their value system, but often you find that it’s not, and people are building these acts that are supposed to be available for millions of people, but they’re really not, or it becomes an afterthought. Sometimes that we were hoping more people you know don’t think about it is an afterthought is it’s part is part of your process, just like you would develop a budget just like you would test the software. You know, like all these components that you might do is just part of your chart of your process and your values. OK, ghisolf sometime left another six minutes or so together. What else you’re gonna covering your session that I haven’t asked you yet? We haven’t talked about well. Part of what we mentioned earlier about talking to changing the culture is you can start with, you know, you could start yourself and and make sure that your own communications, your own email, your own documents are done accessibly. And so one aspect of training is that really talk about your specifics and how to get it down to choosing the right fonts, for example, that are more that’s being more readable. Fund for someone with dyslexia, for example, maybe letters are easier to read. Uh, so there’s a lot of nuances like that using the tools that you already have. Microsoft Office or Google docks things like that, and they have features that allow you to make three documents accessible without doing anything, really all that special. It’s all right there. You don’t need to buy special software or anything like that, but people don’t do it. They don’t even know about it, or they feel like it’s not worth the effort, but the efforts really minimal. And so we’re going to show what some of those things are and how you can create PowerPoint presentations. Dahna brochures, etcetera that that that are are are just fully accessible. So what were you going to be showing? Well, so, for example, in in any modern word processor, there’s a feature called Stiles, and everyone seen them like you opened up Microsoft Word and they’re at the top in the toolbar is all these little book two different styles, you know, titles, heading, anyone heading to et cetera. The most people don’t do that. Most people will right the title and those selected, and they’ll make it bold. We’ll make it blue and they’ll make it, you know, 20 points, fonder, whatever. Well, visually, it looks great. but there’s no meaning to it. For someone who uses a screen reader or other assistive technology to explain that, that’s the title waken visually see the best title. That’s great. If you think about picking up the newspaper, you scan a newspaper, you know, by looking through the headings, and then you have something you’re interested in. You know, maybe you choose that article. Start reading it an individual with screen reader, whether it be a document, a website, whatever, if, if it’s not properly, you know, marked up essentially with four of those for morning, right? The formatting is like, you know, metadata. That’s in these styles. That and that’s the key. And so when you use that same with screen Reader has a tool that they could just read the headings. They could literally do the same thing that you know, if you visually scan a document to see what you want to read, it’s the same thing. But if you don’t if you don’t tell them what a heading is, the only choice it has is to start from word one, you know, picture picking up a newspaper and read in the title of it every time you want to go down to the bottom, you have to start at the top again and read the name of the paper, the price the you know, the editor that gets really old really fast. So when you when you mark these things up properly, they can jump to where they want to go, and it just becomes a more usable document for that. If you’re, like, all doing all caps, that’s like screaming. And there’s all these new and people do that with, like, you know, they’ll write out something. I’m really want someone to know. This is important in here, but you know you could you can make it all caps with styling without affecting the screen reader use durney something into a color and raising the font size doesn’t communicate anything with styles have that formatting metadata built in and yeah, and the same time in the end, if you’re writing a long document and you want to reform at it, But you know, if you do with the way you used to doing it, you gotta go back in and re select. Everything changed that, you know, color from blue to red or whatever Well, if you just change it in the style with the snap, it’s all done. Everything’s updated, so there’s lots of good reasons to do it just for your own workflows. People just don’t think about that. And if you’re a 19 manager, we talk way. Do like we create president power point presentations and styles that we might put into staffs a word Or, you know, like just we’ll plug it in there so that they have that framework to work from right away and they don’t have toe because everybody’s new and they may not know, like you might have new staff that don’t know how to use that that kind of tools until you teach them. But they we want to make that easy. And as I t managers or attacks, we can go in and add those pieces so that at least if someone’s going to get that Power point presentation on Gay didn’t get that accessibility training. If that’s part of what you do at your agency, they can know that that one. If I use this one, you know they have a start in creating it’s not 100% right because they don’t add all text to have bitterly but in their world. And it’s no not accessible start framework. And you could do that as I T manager. You can also develop check lists of things. You go through it with you when you’re adding and having a new staff come on like things that might help them in orient. You two, maybe what their needs are like. It could be everything from, you know, simple things like ergonomics. Um, it could be increasing the font size on their screen. They may not. Some people don’t realize that that that a lot of built in to windows and everything you, Khun, go up Tio 125 1 150% on on the screen. So everybody’s struggling, you know, we’re tryingto look at that screen they didn’t realize. You know, there’s this quick little setting I’ll have to do is turn that upto 1 25 and things got a lot better and a coworker just last week who left your reading glasses at home and I said, Oh, no worries and I did exactly that. It turned up to 100%. She’s like, Oh, I don’t even need him anymore. But, you know, just no one really thought about it. Yeah, there’s an example to of helping the non disabled community. Teo benefits a side benefit of accessibility. Nothing I was thinking of was not all. Not all challenges and disabilities are our permanent Somebody. Somebody might have an eye infection. Andi need a screen reader for a week, for sure. Well, they’re taking their course of antibiotics, so it could be something temporary as well. Okay, uh, on don’t know, too, if if you if your people in your organisation realised that you have a culture of trying to help, you know, to improve your accessibility standards. People that do have disabilities that maybe don’t want that out, they’re more likely feel accepted. They’re more like to feel included, and they’re more likely to give out ideas and participate when they fill that they have those connections and that their agency cares about those things. Otherwise, they feel like they’re marginal lines. We’re gonna leave it there. That’s actually very good. That’s a perfect ending. All right. They are Keith Castle, bon technology and communications manager at Disability Rights Florida and Aurora Holder, I t manager at disability right to Wisconsin. Keith Arora. Thanks very much. Thank you, Tony. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being with Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 1990 season non-profit Technology Conference This interview Like all our 1990 si interviews brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits making impact Thanks so much for being with us. We need to take a break when you see piela is their accountants. You know what accountants do? Do you need one? Do you need a new one? Do you need the help of one? That’s pretty much the same as needing one talking heat Heat Coach Tomb. He’s a partner in the firm has been a show on the guest on the show and a show on the guest. He’ll be honest with you and tell you whether Wagner can help you with your accounting needs. A place to get started is at wetness cpas dot com Now time for Tony Steak, too. My video is two ways to be a good American abroad. As I said last week, this’s from my trip to Brussels, Belgium, for a day and witnessing some bad behavior with language and currency money in in Brussels by some, um, Americans who were Ah well, last week I said ugly, unsympathetic to thee to the native people that they were visiting. And I think you should be a little more sympathetic. Little more outreaching, a little more giving right. That’s how to avoid being that that bad American. So my video, of course, is the positive way. Two ways to be a good American abroad. You can check that out at tony martignetti dot com, and that is Tony’s. Take two Now here is resilience and sustainable impact. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 1990 si. That’s the 2019 non-profit Technology Conference. We’re in Portland, Oregon, at the Convention Center. All of our 1990 siente views are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact. My panel now is Ananda Leak and Mika Whitlock. Ananda is chief mindfulness officer at Ananda Leak Consulting, and Miko is a speaker in trainer on DH. The mindful techie Ananda we go Welcome. Thank you for having a pleasure. Miko, Welcome back to non-profit radio. Thank you. Having a welcome for your first time. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you Mind. We’re talking about your session topic, which is activating a culture of resilience and sustainable impact. Ananda, let’s start with you. What? You give us the headline and lead here. What was the need for the session? The need for this session was Teo really help non-profit organizations and the staff that worked for them understand that they can take better care of themselves one by slowing down and looking at how they communicate, how they’re interacting with each other, the rituals that they have setting on intention as well as looking at how do they want to use technology and a healthy and a mindful way I’m also looking at What would they like to do with these changes in the next 30 16 90 days? And that was something that nickel focused on the intention, the values and then your action plan. Okay, Miko, you wantto introduce us to the topic as well, Please. Yeah, So you know, we live in a damn time where technology and access information is really driving with our person dahna fresh in a life and in the nonprofit sector particular way, have a challenge of described as what best describes as a fire drill culture. Right. Jeff Kanter? Yes. It was on your panel but could not be here. Yes, she had to leave last night. Yes. So Beth describes his culture a fire drill culture where we are sort of moving from crisis to crisis. And we have to do list. That’s right. Now, Long and we have our project listens a mile long. But oftentimes those things that are on the project we started to do list. We ask ourselves, what is our intention? What is our mission? What are you driving toward? We often have a list full of things that aren’t actually related or lined. And so this is about getting in alignment and using tech to do that versus letting it rule you and being unintentional unmindful. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. This is related to what you and I talked about last year. You were? Of course, you were the mindful techie last year. And I remember something you said that’s stayed with me. And I’ve implemented this that you, uh you tell you tell clients up front that you don’t answer email over the weekend. That was right. I hope you’re right. Yes, I’m doing it. Yeah, so it’s xero. It’s about establishing your rules of engagement. And so it’s one of things you can do where people are overwhelmed, like I have all these things to do. I feel like there’s just application for me to be on 24 7 Well, one of the simple things you can do simply to communicate. Here’s how I communicate Well, here’s the tool that I use. Here’s what you can respect expect in terms of a response. You could do this as an individual. You can do this for your team. You can have a discussion as an organization, and what this allows you to do is for you to turn off your phone, turn off your email and know that if you need to be reached, that your team has been given instructions on how to actually reach your something is truly urgent. And if you’re not reachable, they know, like what the next step in the process is. They know what, who Dakota contact or what the protocol is. There aren’t able to reach you and Ananda Help! Help tie this together. So how does uh uh, well, he Miko calls and rules of engagement, I would say setting boundaries. But however you describe it, how does that help you be a more resilient and sabat sustainable organization? Well, first of all, when you make that commitment to yourself, that’s really saying to yourself, I am prioritizing me. I’m practicing self care and that’s the piece. The mindfulness piece that we emphasize yesterday and our session is that whether you’re listening to yourself or listening to others speaking to others, speaking to yourself, all of that communication starts here. It starts with ourselves. So when you invest in, I’m going to set a boundary with how much time I spend communicating with people as well, a CZ using the technology that allows you to kind of settle in and see what’s really happening, really Take the time to say I’m a little out of balance over here. I’m a little out of balance over here, and this is what I can do to bring more balance in if you’re a leader and we had a lot of folks that lead teams in our session, you’re setting an example for how the folks are interacting and and what you do is a leader your team follows. So if you’re all over the place, if you’re stressed out, then your team is, and that doesn’t work for anyone. You want to be productive, you want to be effective. And the way that you could do that is using mindfulness and slowing down and practicing self care. And then that changes the culture that helps you become a resilient person, team and organisation and sustainable and sustainable. Because because unmindful sort of chaotic, what does best say Fire, fire, fire, fire, drill kind of organs that culture is not sustainable. People going to leave because they just can’t work in that kind of environment. Exactly. People stay, people stay home. You have higher rates of Peterle. I’m taking health leave before those things. You have people who maybe it wouldn’t take three hours to do something if they were arrested. If they had the time, If they weren’t responding to emails all times during the day and night and even on the weekends, so is really looking at Hey, how are we treating ourselves first? Because that that impacts your clients that impacts their bottom line in pressure. Dollar. You know your profit. Yeah. This is not just about health. Know which is which is should be sufficient, but for a lot of people, it’s not. It’s also a bottom line costs. Yeah, And if your health outcomes or poor because you’re in a on unsustainable work environment, then that’s going to impact your your your health insurance premiums. Yeah, and people who are stressed out make more mistakes, you know, And productivity. Yeah, and you have to keep coming back to fix it. And so you’re using a lot of time. Use a lot of energy. People are not working at their best. They’re not working smart. So I’m guessing you had a lot of strategies for Ah, avoiding the the the fire crisis kind of management organizational culture. Okay, why don’t you kick us off mindful Techie? Yeah. So, Mikko, one of the first things is really taking a step back to get clear about what is your intention And what is your vision? Any particular point in time? If you have a list of Mao longer things that you have to do, the reality is that you only have a certain number of hours in a day, and in a week you have a certain amount of energy and attention that you’re able to give to those things that are on your list. And so you want to make sure that whatever you’re choosing to focus your time on is Number one mission, Aline. That’s that’s personally and professionally. The second thing you want people to do is not all of those things are off equal importance that are on your list. So you wanna be able to prioritize. Prioritize means to essentially say yes to one thing and no or not right now to something else so that you could give your time and attention and focus to what’s actually important. Have you Have you seen that Eisenhower Quadrant? Yes, I knew that if I used the pool okay, so well, we don’t have the benefit everybody most. Most of our audience is listening. Some will be watching video, so there’s no point in drawing. And I don’t think I can get Teo please. So, essentially, the Eisenhower principal, this is ah ah, tool. That’s attributed to Eisenhower’s just a foursquare quad. It’s essentially helps you identify what’s urgent versus important at this particular point in time. So what needs your time and attention right now? What can be scheduled? What can be delegated or our automated and what could be eliminated from your list altogether? Because it is not really relevant or it’s not really important. And one of the challenges with along to do Listen project list is folks think that everything is of equal importance. So they stressed themselves out, trying to do everything simultaneously. And when I work with people on this, that really asked a series of power of questions. And one of them is, if you could only do one thing of those 50 things that are on your list, which one thing would be so impactful that would make everything else on that list either easier or irrelevant to do? Here’s an example that came up in the workshop. A woman said, I have. I hear what you’re saying about prioritizing and picking one thing, but I have 50 things on my list. What I don’t I don’t know where to start. And she ended up actually answering her own question because what she realizes that Okay, well, if I prioritize actually training my new staff. Then I would actually have less things to do because that my staff would be empowered to do those things. And so if I said over the next 90 days, I’m going to focus on that that thing on my long to do list first, you actually shorten your to do list by doing one of them exactly prioritizing that as number one. Exactly. Okay, all right. And so another tip that folks can use. And this is just working in larger groups and your team’s. One of the things that came up in the mindful communication group is that people did not feel like they were heard. They felt like when they go to meetings, they’re really just waiting so that they can get out what they need to get out because they’ve got an agenda. The folks that are running the meeting have an agenda, and no one is really slowing down tto list, and you’re just really ready. Just to respond is like you’re talking, and then I’m not listening to you because I’m preparing my next statement. So I offered to the group that won you start your meeting with a mindful moment. That’s something where you can have 30 seconds, 60 seconds, maybe a minute. If you have more time, you can do a mindful meditation, but just taking some deep breaths so that everyone can arrive. Another thing folks talked about was that when they have one on one communication with folks, folks are looking away their on their phones there. By the way, when I’m looking away, I’m looking at volume. You almost looking the number of minutes. OK, I’m not I mean, I’m not turning 90 degrees to go, right? Aye. There’s two things that attract your volume and write and how much time we spend. So we’re right here together. Rules of engagement. Exactly. One engaged with me. I got you. Tolerate. I’m going t 10 degrees offer. You’re looking at it. I totally understand. And I’m with you and you’re with me. You’re you’re you’re managing this process. So I I understand that However, if you’re all over the place and your were supposed to be talking, I don’t feel heard, so I don’t It’s Yeah, Well, that’s one. That’s one person made that comment that it’s rude, but what it is is that you’re missing an opportunity to really hear what your colleague is saying, which is involving the bottom line, which is the profit, which is what? Doing good work. You’re missing that opportunity and it’s it’s really saying You don’t respect yourself and you don’t respect the other person. So one thing that people can do is institute a rule where you put your cell phone down, maybe collect the cell phones, put the laptop down, meeting at meetings. Yeah, meaning so people can really engage with each other or dedicate a particular part of the meeting for people to Because because I know in meetings folks are taking note lorts and so they’re using their phone. They’re using their their computers. But to dedicate a portion of that meeting so that people are one on one, they get to see it. Your present. Some of the components of mindful communication are one. You have the intention to be present, too, that you are actually present. How how do we become president? We become president with our breath just simply taking a deep breath in and out. Your breath is with you at all times. I say, make your breath your B F F. The third component is making sure that you’re that that person recognizes that you’re there. That’s the active listening, the act of speaking. We have that eye contact, you know, and and then engaging with folks. I know what I’m going to say, but you’re going to say something else so that I actually hear you in. It’s responding. It’s like giving that affirmation So all of those things really do help shape the culture that helps with folks understanding that there heard that allows people to feel respected. That allows you to get out what you need to say. It bills team confidence in helps productivity. It resolves conflicts. If you have a conflict with someone else and you’re looking away, that doesn’t do anything except add to to the issue, so it helps you transform problems into possibilities. It za superpower that we’re all missing mindfulness, you know, time for our last break text to give the five party male many course that dispels the myths around mobile giving. You know how to get the thing. You text NPR, too, for for for 999 and break down the myriad myths around mobile giving like that it has to go through through a phone company, and the donor’s phone bill is where is that puts a limit on the amount that they can give. It doesn’t have to work that way. That’s one of the myths on you will crush the others by getting the email many course over five days. Text NPR to 444999 and we’ve got butt loads more time for resilience and sustainable impact. I have some of that, and I don’t mean this trite Lee. But some of that is just things that I think I I grew up, I think a lot of grumbling being called, you know, courtesy your your your attentive When people are talking to you, you’re listening. You know you’re not thinking of your next sentence napor waiting for them to pause so you can get it in. But you’re listening on DH. You’re giving them your attention and no, now we say you’re you’re mindful of your on intentional about your presence, but I think on again, not trite. But like a lot of it is common courtesy that I don’t know if it’s technology has led us away from or its are burdensome work schedules. That is maybe a combination, you know. But I hear a lot of what you’re saying as courtesy. It is courtesy. But what you said what you just said with the technology and are burdensome schedules and then just the drive of of our country. I can’t talk about other countries, just a drive of our country, that we want it right now. All of that has taken courtesy and its dumped it out the window. I mean, we’re altum. I’m sure we’re all taught that, but you’re trying to get stuff done and you have someone who’s pressing you. You’ve got deadlines. The best of us have those intentions and myself included. But if you’re so wrapped up in responding and and I’m using myself because that as an example, what are you going to do to slow down? But it’s it’s the breath. A lot of time. A lot of times I will say maybe not a lot. Occasionally I will say, you know, could you just repeat what you said? Because I apologize. I my mind wandered for those last couple senses, or, um, nothing I’ve done is put off discussion so I can’t focus on this right now because of this other thing. Can we delay whether it’s a day or 15 minutes or whatever? You know, I know that I can’t give you my full attention. Yes, I’m sorry that I can’t because we had scheduled something, But I can’t do it right now. I won’t be at my best with you. I’ve done that occasionally. People always understand, and I think they’d rather reschedule. I’m you know, I’m sorry I’m disappointing you, but we’ll have a much better outcome if if you can meet me halfway and we could do this tomorrow or next week Yeah. Miko. Another strategy principle for us. Tow. Be mindful and intentional and contribute to our resilience and sustainability. Yeah, so I think around the technology to do it, I’ll just give AA few things. So one is, you know, to really take a look at your smart watch, your smartphone, your tablet, all those things which are really wonderful to do our work. But to really assess of all the acts that you’re using, which of those things are mission critical versus which aren’t mission critical and for the things that aren’t mission critical that getting in the way That of distracting. Turn off the push notifications. If Facebook Instagram, this is a good one. You said this last year too, but it bears repeating by no means. Yeah, if dated. Exactly. You don’t have to write your own ticket. These notifications all Exactly. If you know the CNN breaking news alerts. If those things aren’t mission critical, turn off the alerts. That is Facebook will be their instrument would be there. Standing will be there if you want to follow that. But we’re going toe Take back our attention. Take back our time. Take back our focus extend the quality of our focus so that no one on this point that when we are talking like my phone isn’t buzzing And then I’m trying I’m trying to think about okay, this thing I didn’t respond too well. Who like me. What is it? What does pocket buzzing? What? What’s there That is compared to what I’m doing with you and then I’m like Sorry, Tony, could you repeat the question? Your pocket is lighting up. You know there’s something else that I took away. It was it was either from the panel last year. Or Amy Sample. Ward is a regular contributor on the show. She talked about technology and social media. It was it was either your panel or or she and another interview suggested turning off the badge in the mail on your phone. Yes, I think the number in your phone was yes. Panel. Yes. And I did it. Yeah, and I don’t feel that I don’t feel stressed. I don’t have to see the number one. It’s going up. It’s this high is for, and I haven’t been there yet. It doesn’t matter. The little little old thing is there. I don’t know. It’s not even there isn’t there, and it’s not his blank. No, it’s not even there yet. It just just the icon without the badge. I don’t need to know that I have one or six or 12 messages. I’ll get to it when I get to it. You don’t need to tell me the check. E mail. It’s not something I’m going to forget in 2019. I can’t possibly forget to check email, and I think this is particularly important with email where we get more chemo. Then we have the capacity to actually address in some cases. So turning off the notification that shows you how many messages awaiting that little badge that lowers your anxiety level? It actually works, you know. Worked for me. Yeah, Just I worked for me and part of it. The part. The reason that worked was because the devices are intentionally designed to capture your intent. Your attention, right? And so there’s a lot of thought that goes into the notifications, how they flow, the sound, the color and all those things that actually influence that. So I’ll take this. Yes, it stop the damn badges. Red. Yeah, it’s great. It’s another. Yes, the reds. Exactly. Stop what you’re doing and come to my number and look in your email. So here’s a bonus too. Okay. If you turn your tablet or your phone. Two gray scale. But you’re essentially looking at a black and white device, right? And it has less appeal. So you’re not just picking up your phone, you know that random moments, thinking Okay. What am I like visually engaging, less engaging? Exactly. So you have children. You have to pause and think about. Okay. Well, what am I doing at this moment what I want to do with my device in my hand, because all of a sudden becomes like a less attractive toy if you become the less attractive, shiny object, if you will, because you’ve turned off the color setting. Is that in the color on iPhone? Is that in colors and brightness? It’s a city, its inaccessibility setting, its inaccessibility in-kind osili excellent. I wouldn’t have found it there. All right, I’m gonna try it awesome. And another another set of tools that people can use. And this is going back to the breath. So many of us in the nonprofit world we sit all day long. Or maybe we’re standing outstanding debts, and if you are, that’s a That’s a beautiful thing. But you’re in front of that screen, whether it’s your your your laptop, your phone or your watch. What I suggested to folks yesterday in the sessions that you use either the phone ringing the email that’s requiring your attention, whatever the next assignment is in the next to do list. Item two. Step away. Take a break. Before you engage into that, you can either use your breath by just simply doing and out in and out before and you can always get up and go to the bathroom. Who’s going to stop you? That was one thing. If you’re in a meeting and things are getting whatever way that they are, you can get up and move and go to the bathroom and re align yourself. Take some breaths in the bathroom. I’m I’m famous for going to the last stall and breathing. Maybe doing some stretching some office yoga. I mean, I work it out. The bathroom is is my escape. Okay, I would extend that. So one of the tips that I give two folks for, you know, if the turning off the notifications turning off the badge. If you like this just a bridge too far for you. I offer people this mantra. I would say to you, you should try it. It’s not a bridge too far, but But if if you’re in that situation, is the mantra called eat poop? Sleep. So again, the mantra is called Eat poop sleep, and the idea is that way. All have to eat way. All the poop way will have to sleep, and those are opportunities where we can put away the tablet, you can put away the phone. So for 30 minutes while you’re eating, you know you can be by yourself or be actually engaged with someone else and conversation while you’re pooping on the toilet, your phone can not be with you. And hopefully, while you’re sleeping, you’re not also texting and trying to read CNN at the same time, right? Hopefully you can turn that off and maybe buy a real alarm clock and charger device in a different room. So though, if you’re looking for a place to start and you feel like all the other things that I shared and all these other people are sharing tips and hacks, quote unquote aren’t doable for you poop sleep. I have an example of that. It wasn’t pooping but was being I was in the men’s room yesterday. It was in the men’s room and two different guys came in. They were holding themselves with their right hand, and they were holding the phone with their left standing at the urinal. Yeah, I couldn’t believe two different guys sequentially. They didn’t see each other, but I saw both of them. Can I take a lot of time when I washed my hands. Uh, so I was in the hand washing section. But these guys were watching their phones while they were peeing in the urinal. I couldn’t believe it. So please, you should be able to do more than eat poop sleep. I understand they’re people who can’t sew your starting point, set a low bar, wait to start my way. Yes, I think we all should. Wear should be able to go further than that. Alright. Way. Still have some more time in a couple more minutes? Ananda, you have you have another? Yeah, you do value. So you know, we we sometimes find ourselves so stressed out that we eat in front of our devices and one of the things that this is years ago, a colleague suggested to me, Just move. Remove yourself from the desk. Don’t eat in your in the work area. Go someplace else. There’s there are other places to go, or if that’s what you’re finding yourself doing and you don’t have any other place to go, then each your food and go walk, Go duitz. Move your body. It’s like the mind needs to see something different. Just changed the geographic oppcoll area. We went to dinner last night. I think we were talking. It was either during dinner, one of one of our social outings during during the conference, and Miko was talking to someone About what? This is such a great food city. You shot out the restaurant? Oh, yes. Blossom. What is it? Blossoming lotus. Blossoming lotus. Awesome food. We love you. The carrot. Chinese, Japanese. It was vegan. Vegan? Yeah, they had some great carrot ginger soup. Oh, my gosh. The collie flower was amazing. I have Bob. Yeah, Yeah, they had a great smoothies. Great t everything. Oh, yes, that took me to a whole Another place. So yeah, You see how food can just transform you? You wantto make sure that when you’re eating that you’re enjoying the meal. So mindful eating is like taking the bite’s slowly chewing, just savoring the tastes, lowly doing and not trying to do anything else. Just enjoying the meal, even taking a walk and picking up your feet and putting them back down. That’s mindful. Walking. You can google it if you want to know more about it. Good. The process of just bringing some presents to your activity other than the work space. Just moving yourself in that space of Yeah, I’m here. Maybe it’s just Maybe you just need to stand outside. I know sometimes for me it’s cold and D C and just going to the corner and coming back and at the corner of CVS. But I just need thio, move my body and stand outside, and I’ll just bring you in and out, just changing, changing your geographical location. But the story I was telling with Miko was that someone talked about how they work from home and that they’re really in this open space. And so they’re sleeping and they’re working in the same space, putting a sheet over their work area so that that allows you to say, I’m done and that’s the end of the day and it’s done. It’s like covering it up or closing a door, doing something that separates the space Home office. Yes, yes, cleaning off your desk, you have something that I do religiously cleaning off your desk. Yeah, there’s a there’s a science behind them, so when you’re one of the challenges with eating at your desk, is not that just that you’re eating at your desk, you’re not getting away from it, is your brain doesn’t actually shut off. So you’re because their brain is associating you sitting at your desk and you sitting in front of your screen. Is you still working? So even though you’re eating it, maybe you’re not actively working. Your brain is still in work mode so that the physical act of closing the lid cleaning after dafs covering it up, I’m moving to like a different physical space signals to your brain. Okay, we’re going into a restaurant or eating in that dance. Yeah, Okay. We’re going to rescue to recovery move. Okay, We’re gonna leave it there. OK? Was excellent. Thank you. Thank you for this back and forth. Thank you. My pleasure. They are. They are Ananda Leak, chief mindfulness officer at Ananda Leak Consulting and Miko Whitlock, Speaker and trainer. Mindful Techie, you are with Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 ntc 19 2019 non-profit Technology Conference. All of our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at act Blue Free fund-raising tools for non-profits to make an impact. Thanks for being with us next week. Unconscious bias and your normal is my trigger. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, Data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing by Wagner CPS Guiding YOU beyond the numbers Regular cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations. Made Easy Text. NPR to 444999 A Creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff Family. Boyce is the line producer. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots. Dina Brooklyn, New York Thank you, Scotty. Here with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. 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