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Nonprofit Radio for July 10, 2020: Digital Accessibility & Inclusive Design

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My Guests:

Laura Patch: Digital Accessibility
How to make your digital products more accessible. Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text, screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. (Part of our 20NTC coverage)






Nic Steenhout: Inclusive Design
Nic Steenhout says forget upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take, the point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. (Also part of our 20NTC coverage)





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[00:01:55.54] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with lateral epic condo leitess if you strained our relationship with the idea that you missed today’s show. Digital Accessibility. How do you make your digital products more accessible? Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. This is part of our 20 NTC coverage. Also inclusive design. Nick Steen How says Forget about upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take. The point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. This is also part of our 20 NTC coverage on Tony’s Take two Dismantling racism were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non profits? Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Here is digital accessibility. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit technology conference. We were supposed to be in Baltimore. The conference was canceled, but we are persevering, virtually irrespective. Our coverage of 20 NTC is sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund.

[00:02:20.44] spk_0:
Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? You can go to tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial.

[00:02:32.04] spk_1:
My guess now is Laura Patch. She is digital project manager for the Sierra Club. Ah, Laura. Welcome.

[00:02:33.74] spk_2:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:35.39] spk_0:
Uh, pleasure. I’m glad this worked out. And, uh, I know you’re well and safe and glad. Glad to hear that.

[00:02:41.64] spk_2:

[00:02:54.94] spk_1:
Your ah topic is everyday accessibility. How everyone can make digital products more accessible? Why is this important for all for all

[00:02:55.93] spk_0:
nonprofits, irrespective of what proportion you think your users are. Your visitors are that with with disabilities.

[00:04:03.24] spk_2:
Um, So there is definitely a portion of the population that has permanent disabilities that we should be concerned with. They have high buying power. Um, disposable income that will on make them want to donate to your lovely non profit. And by having accessible, uh, digital products, you make sure that they can participate in your mission, but awesome. Their situational disabilities. If you think about the last time you took your cell phone out and it was great and funny and you couldn’t see your screen back, actually an acceptability issue. And if you focus on creating high contrast images like you would for somebody who has color vision problems, then you’re benefiting all the people using your website on their phone in break fun. So thinking about this situation, all ones will help your organization as well.

[00:04:04.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Thank you. I want people to understand that I’ve had NTC guests say that. I don’t know. It was a couple of years ago, since since we’ve covered accessibility, but yeah. Thank you. Um,

[00:04:30.74] spk_1:
there’s a little pause in the video. Um, So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna pause the recording. I’m gonna ask you to leave the meeting and come back in. Okay? I’m gonna pause now. All right, let’s see if

[00:04:31.92] spk_0:
this works a little better. Maybe not so much video hesitation. Um, so this is, uh you’re covering every digital product you say. Not just This is not just for websites.

[00:04:45.04] spk_2:
Correct? In my presentation, I talk about how to make your documents, your slides and a data visualisation more accessible.

[00:04:54.84] spk_0:
Okay, um, should we, uh, should we start with documents that Okay,

[00:05:23.84] spk_2:
Yeah, but, um, So one of the things that I suggest is to make sure that you use the actual heading setting whether you’re using Microsoft Word Google docks, whatever your platform is, um, this is important, because if you take text and inject, change the format of it, then screen readers can’t tell somebody that right? Whereas if you use heading one heading two heading three, a screenwriter will include that and what it reads to the person so it helps them navigate through your content.

[00:05:39.50] spk_0:
Uh, okay. I don’t think many people are doing that. I think most people just radio heading and then boldface it.

[00:05:49.94] spk_2:
Exactly. Yeah. You really want to take the time, Teoh Change it so it’s heading, and you can actually adapt style so that once you apply heading one, all of your heading ones have that style. It’s really actually easier work.

[00:06:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Right. Then you rather than you have to do it manually. Ok? Um okay. What else? What else? For documents.

[00:06:17.54] spk_2:
Um, this is one that people also frequently forget. We’re doing a better job on websites, but all images should have alternative text. Uh, that should be a no longer than two seconds is preferably even shorter than two sentences. It should describe what’s happening in the image without using words like image of photo of, um, and this again also helps with screen readers. It helps if the images loading slowly as well. So if you have poor Internet connection, you’re again on your cell phone. With no cell service, you can still tell what is conveyed in a image by the alternative text. Okay,

[00:06:49.11] spk_0:
why do you say, why do you not use the language photo of our image over something like that?

[00:06:55.94] spk_2:
Because the screen reader will tell people that it will say image, and then it’ll tell your alternative text so it’s repetitive to keep saying it. Describe what people might feed.

[00:07:10.17] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, Anything else with with images?

[00:07:12.54] spk_2:
No, not.

[00:07:14.04] spk_1:
Do you have to be concerned about color, color of our images or anything like that?

[00:07:30.34] spk_2:
If you’re gonna put text over the image than yes, you want to make sure that your image background in that text have Ah, High column, cross radio. There’s some places on the Internet You can check to make sure that that’s working well, but basically you want toe have either a light background with dark text or vice versa on. And if you can’t achieve that because a lot of things were happening in the image than doing some sort of floating background behind your text with playing around with capacity. I’m concerns that will work while too.

[00:08:05.43] spk_0:
OK, I’m sorry. What do you mean, capacity was the opacity. Opacity? Yes. Okay, I’ve seen that. All right, Opacity, SS. I’m trainable. Alright? Opacity, Of course. All right. Um, yeah. More documents, Sure. Sure.

[00:08:10.31] spk_2:
Yeah. So those are some good tips for documents? Um,

[00:08:14.85] spk_0:
was that it? Is that it for documents? Okay. Okay. Um, where should we go? Uh, uh, data visualization, right?

[00:08:24.14] spk_2:
Yeah. Expands more on that color stuff that we were just talking about. Where you go, you have high contrast colors. Um, you do have colors, like, Say, you have a graph that has five color. So it becomes really difficult to make sure that every single one of those colors have five contrasts. You want to add pattern.

[00:09:08.14] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As changes to paycheck protection program Loan forgiveness There have been many, but none this week. Congress skipped a week. Wegner hasn’t up to date free wagon. Or that explains the latest go to wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource Is and recorded events. Now back to digital accessibility with Laura Patch.

[00:09:42.04] spk_2:
So I have some visuals for this in my presentation. So let me see if I can describe it Well, um, imagine that you’re looking at a map of route map of buses, right, and you have five routes and there’s purple, blue, green, yellow, red. And if those arrows for the route across each other and you can’t tell the difference between purple and blue, you can’t tell where the route goes. But if you add a pattern to the color saying one of them is a stolid line and one of them is a dotted line, then you can continue to follow the path, even if you can’t tell the difference between those two colors.

[00:09:54.94] spk_0:
Okay, okay, good, Yeah,

[00:10:16.44] spk_2:
yeah, On this works in grafs as well. If you have a pie chart, my yourself makes this really easy. But you can do it in other programs where you can add patterns to your wedges. So do a light color in the background. And then do you hired darker color of the same shade, right? So it could be like blue with blue polka dots on top of it so that they can tell that high fly slice goes to whatever your label is on the side.

[00:10:30.09] spk_0:
Okay? And if you don’t do this, what is it? The problem that all the colors are gonna look similar to someone who has accessibility issues?

[00:10:39.64] spk_2:
Yes. If you can’t see colors than they can’t tell what high slice goes toe. What data point?

[00:11:05.96] spk_0:
Ok, um, same thing with bar charts. Is there anything same would apply to bar charges? Most pie charts? Um, graphs. You talked about lines? That’s the analogy. Analogy. There is the map. Right line. Line. Line line graphs. Okay, Okay. Yeah.

[00:11:31.99] spk_2:
The thing to think about right is that accessibility guidelines say you can’t use color alone to convey a meaning. So when you’re looking at graphs, you want to make sure that somebody can tell like if they can’t tell the difference between colors, they can still understand the information you’re trying to convey. Um, so another way to think about it is like if you’re looking at pins on maps, right, they might have different colors for restaurants. First days, uh, community service places, but you can’t tell the difference between those two colors. That doesn’t really help you if you add an icon to that pin suddenly like the icon of a fork tells you. But that’s an eatery versus just the color of the pen.

[00:11:52.74] spk_1:
Ah, I see. And then how will a reader interpret that?

[00:11:58.04] spk_2:
That’s an excellent question, usually aboard, to make sure that there is data labels as well. So label that as restaurant versus just the information.

[00:12:23.86] spk_0:
Okay, okay, I could see a mean a map. I’m just tryingto understand how a screen reader interprets, um, a map like that Local A. T M’s or gas stations. It can do

[00:12:59.08] spk_2:
that. Uh, maps. There were some of the most difficult things to make Fully accessible, said. There’s basically and if especially for a non developer person, it’s very difficult because there’s things you can put into the code of amount toe, give things, labels. Um, so most of the time If you’re thinking about accessibility from a non developer standpoint, you’re gonna be thinking about the visual ramifications. So those I Hans in your, um, in your pens, I always having a list of the information instead of just the map. Visual is really helpful to because the screen reader can read the list as opposed to the not itself.

[00:13:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, that makes sense. I was wondering if you’ve, uh, well, yeah, it wouldn’t make sense for the for people who don’t have a disability toe leave out a map and just do a list. But actually, so have both. Okay, the screen reader could make sense of the list. OK, OK. OK, um, anything else about data visualization?

[00:13:32.54] spk_2:
No, I think those are the key points for developers.

[00:13:38.74] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um what else? Uh, what what

[00:13:40.99] spk_1:
was the other category? You had

[00:13:42.84] spk_2:
a slides.

[00:13:44.44] spk_0:
Oh, for slides. Okay, Power point or Google slides. Okay.

[00:14:42.64] spk_2:
Um, so the same thing. Kind of occurrence for slides as it does for images and documents. You want to make sure you have that alternative text. Um, but the thing that’s unique about slides is that you want to make sure you’re paying attention to the order items are on. Um, if somebody can’t use a mouse, we’ll use the tab button on their keyboard. Um, and the order that your items on your slide are is the order that this screen reader will also like, read your side through. Right. So an easy way to test how a screen reader is gonna read your content to someone is to use that tab button and navigate as if you don’t have a mouse. Um, So, for example, if you want your slide title to be read first, you want to make sure that the first tab is that and I’ve seen a lot of slides where it will be the image, footer, slide content and then title. And you’re like, Well, this would make no sense it was going to be in that order. How

[00:15:00.60] spk_1:
do you change

[00:15:07.13] spk_0:
it? Is that the sequence with which you put them on the on the template slide as you’re making it? Have you control with the tab sequences?

[00:15:11.46] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s the default way. Feel like as you add things, that will be the order, but you can right click on any item on your slide and send it to the back. Send it to the front. Defended forward. Backwards. So you just want to play around with that until it’s the right order that you want.

[00:15:29.93] spk_1:
Oh, that’s what that

[00:15:30.75] spk_0:
thing means. Send forwards finback. Okay, okay.

[00:15:45.74] spk_2:
That can get a little tricky for designers, because it’ll be like putting Bill block certain things with another square or some things that you do have to pay attention. Tilly, if you’re destroying what is visually you showing as well. But for the most part, you want to make sure that cat order makes us

[00:16:09.44] spk_0:
okay. Okay? And and that applies, um, for either Google slides or Power Point. You just right. Click on some right click on an item, and that’s how you can set the sequence. Okay. Okay. Um, anything else slides? Slides wise.

[00:16:13.49] spk_2:
No, that’s right. For slides.

[00:16:24.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, should we should we say anything more about color choices overall? Well, we’re

[00:16:26.43] spk_2:
okay. There’s Cem programs that you can check your contrast levels, um, as well as develop a color palette that it’s accessible. Um, so if your organization hasn’t done much in accessibility, you might want to talk to your design team just toe. Tweak some of those colors to make sure that their high contrast I see our club actually just recently changed our color palette to make it more accessible so that we can use more color combinations,

[00:17:06.28] spk_0:
Can you, ah, name any of those resources that are available to check color contrast, and you can send us to,

[00:17:59.58] spk_2:
uh, mine. My favorite is color palette Accessibility Checker. It allows you to put your full color palette into their system and then check each color against all of the colors in your palette for that accessibility purpose. Um, if you’re Jeff checking two colors for contrast purposes. Web aim color contrast Checker is a really good one on both of those. Tell you a and double A levels. So the Web accessibility has level A. Which is the least, uh, the minimum that you need to dio Double A, which is what most organizations looking for and tripled a triple. It is very difficult to do when you kind of have toe constantly, maintain it toe, reach it. So if you’re thinking about all the lawsuits that are coming out about accessibility, they’re mostly talking about double standards.

[00:18:07.43] spk_0:
What are some of those lawsuits around our visual products.

[00:18:52.84] spk_2:
Yeah, the big one that came out in within the last year is the dominoes case. Um, somebody was trying to order pizza online, I think, actually through their up on and was unable to do so. So they sued dominoes for acceptability. Um, and won the case. Oh, okay. Do you want one of the things that we’re still trying to get figured out is the 88 definitely applies to digital products. Over those bases are considered public domain, like public public domain, but like the public space similar to if you walk into the restaurant. Um, but the congress hasn’t actually passed anything that’s told us what those guidelines are. So most people are using the web accessibility, Web content, accessibility guidelines as what be our gaming for, But it’s not legally state that yet.

[00:19:11.94] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. But it is a benchmark for for now, until the courts Yeah, decide on a standard. Okay. Um what else? What else should we be talking about?

[00:19:34.94] spk_2:
Um uh oh. I have one more resource that might be helpful, but for people. But it’s called the color blindness simulator. Um, and it allows you to upload an image and then check different ways of color blindness. Though it’ll stimulate a red color blindness, the blue color blindness. So you can see what that image looks like if somebody can’t feel the images.

[00:19:51.34] spk_1:
Okay. And what is that again? Color

[00:19:53.81] spk_2:
color blindness in later

[00:19:57.54] spk_0:
simulator. Okay. Okay. Um, those are excellent. You ticked off like dozens of I don’t know to Doesn’t things or something. Excellent. Um, you leave it there. Does that sound like

[00:20:06.74] spk_2:

[00:20:07.39] spk_0:
good coverage? Okay. Cool. Uh, thank you very much. Laura Patch. She is digital product manager at the Sierra Club. Laura, Thank you very much.

[00:20:16.87] spk_2:
Thank you.

[00:20:22.24] spk_0:
And thank you for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of the the virtual 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software.

[00:21:47.29] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountains software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you were That has features you need and exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take two. You’re dismantling racism journey. That’s our newest special episode, and it’s out. You will have a long journey. So start with this single step. My guest is pretty itchy. Shaw. She’s president and CEO of Flourished Talent Management Solutions. Starting where you are with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you gather data about racist structures that are right under your nose? Who do you invite to the conversation? She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on. She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on YouTube If you want to wait for the video, that is Tony’s Take two. Now it’s time for inclusive design with Nick Steen. How welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:21:58.79] spk_0:
profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference were sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. With Me Now is next in how he’s an independent accessibility consultant. Nick. Welcome.

[00:22:06.64] spk_3:
Hey, tony. Thanks for having me. Really nice to chat with you.

[00:22:10.24] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m very glad we could work this out virtually. And, uh and it’s good to know that you’re well and safe outside Vancouver, British Columbia.

[00:22:20.40] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s difficult times, but we’re staying safe yet.

[00:22:32.10] spk_0:
Alright, Alright, um, your NTC topic is forget accessibility. Think inclusive design s O. What is it about accessibility that you want us to? Who forget?

[00:24:41.84] spk_3:
I think that when we’re focusing on Leon excess stability, we’re forgetting that accessibility is good for everyone. No, As as an individual with a disability myself, I will never forget that implementing where backs disability is above and beyond for people with disabilities to be able to use the web. But if we’re thinking Onley in those terms, we tend to forget that, uh, making sure color contrasts are good. You know, you’re not using great text on great background. That’s good for people with low vision. But it’s also good for you when you’re using your mobile device and full sun when you’re talking about making sure the the target area for ah click is big enough for someone who has cerebral policy and doesn’t have fine motor control to click on that little check box. It’s also good for someone that has big fingers and trying to fill a form on the bus or public transit. Uh, when we’re talking about plain language, we’re also talking about? Well, maybe maybe someone has a functional in permit. Maybe it’s a young mom with a very young baby that has colic. So she’s trying to juggle a sick baby in one hand and read up information on her mobile phone on the other. And the cognitive load is very, very impacted. So there’s all these things that are really important for people with disabilities, but that I also happen to benefit everybody a little bit like in the physical world. We started implementing curb cuts that was good for wheelchair users. Sauce good for parents pushed airs for their kids, for delivery people with it appears on unstable. You, um, you may have to edit me and post.

[00:25:08.14] spk_0:
Yeah, let’s keep going. Ah, lot of times the, uh, the the way it appears is not. The word is not what’s getting recorded. I’ve had that happen a couple times, so we’ll just Kentucky as long as we can still hear each other. Yeah, um, and if the video becomes unusable, then we’ll just do the audio. Yeah. Also cuts also help those of us who are pulling luggage. Yep.

[00:25:28.39] spk_3:
So it’s it’s really a question of universal access. And when we’re start thinking about what we’re doing, we really should talk about inclusive design. It’s it’s going from, um it’s going from situation that are equal, but different to situation where everyone can benefit.

[00:25:35.96] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. What is your own disability?

[00:25:41.02] spk_3:
I’m a wheelchair user.

[00:25:49.59] spk_1:
Okay. Does that impact screen use? No, it

[00:27:10.24] spk_3:
doesn’t. Not for me. Um, but I’ve had a situation where I was, Um, a few years ago, I managed to broke a wrist because I slid on ice in my I can’t out of the sidewalk felon in the street broke arrest. So I had a problem moving around, obviously. And about a week later, I broke the other risk in a car accident. So I was severely impaired from being able to use the keyboard. Normally, type about 80 words minute. And when that happened, I was starting to fingers and it was very, very awkward. Eso having been a an accessibility expert for a large number of years, I was also faced with having to to learn things I knew were there on you. The tools, for example, Dragon, naturally speaking, to be able to to speak to the computer for, for interacting and you all that I had used all that in testing. But the point was really brought home about no. As a wheelchair user, I realized the barriers in the physical world. But as, um, as a suddenly web disabled user, I had to relearn all these things again.

[00:27:53.64] spk_0:
Yeah, I see how deeply personal this is for you. Um, I’ve had guests on talking about accessibility. I know we’re supposed to You wanna think inclusive design? But those guests were framing it as accessibility on and, uh, I’ve never heard anyone mention the size of a radio button the size of anything that you need to click on as being difficult to land on for someone with cerebral palsy Or, I guess, other neuro muscular disabilities as well. Yeah. Um,

[00:29:18.64] spk_3:
yeah, it In general, we tend to to know about accessibility for screen reader users because it’s been the most obvious. The biggest barrier is for people that are have vision impairments and then rely on SSF technology like screen reader users. But the fact is, there’s a whole range of disabilities that effect using the Web. There’s obviously people with no vision or low vision There’s people with hearing impairments that, for example, if there’s no transcript for your show, they’re not gonna be able to interact with the shore or get material out of the show. But aside a side issue to someone who is born deaf and grows up deaf. Where American Sign language is their first language. The grandma, the structure of the language, is so completely different from English. So when they’re interacting with content, a lot of these native SL users English is their second language. And then if we don’t try to in plain English, it makes content difficult to digest. There’s just all kinds of little things that if it’s not something we’re used to, or we don’t stop to think about it, there’s impact all over the place.

[00:29:43.54] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Yeah. Um, let’s see. So, um, how should we? How shall we continue? Um, and there are other. Are there other design concepts I ideas that you want to share, just like your listing them and explaining them? Or should we approach this some other way?

[00:29:46.94] spk_2:

[00:31:33.78] spk_3:
sure. If we’re gonna use video, let me share. You’re one of the a couple of the slides. I have in my, uh, in my deck for the presentation, which might actually bring something to to the viewers. Um, we’re tired, King a lot about, um, equality making the Web equal for everyone. And in this slide, I have an image of, uh, three kids, very short kid, the middle height kid in a tall kid looking at a ball game over a fence, and they’re all on, uh, all on the box. That allows them to be a little bit higher, but the box is the same height for everyone’s. The very tall kid gets to see very well above defense. But the very short kids still can’t see above it if we contrast that to equity, which is a concept that we’re talking a lot about Is that well, they’re very talk. It does not need any boxes to see over defense. The kid that’s no halfway between the two can use one box and he can see over the box and then a very short kid. If you stack two of those boxes suddenly he can see over defense. So we’re talking of an equitable situation, and that’s one of the concept that I want people to realize is we have to stop thinking about access abilities in terms of equality, but we really should start thinking about it in terms of equity. But if we push further, um

[00:31:52.69] spk_0:
and thank you, Nick, for explaining what’s on the slides because, ah, lot of people won’t be seeing the video. It’s an audio podcast. And then if our video is good, I’ll put that on the YouTube channel. But most people are just getting audio through the podcast. So you’re thank you for sounding like a screen reader as you describe what’s in the

[00:33:54.14] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned that it’s something I’ve gotten used to do, and I do. Presentations is that I rarely put visuals up on the slide that I won’t take time to explain because I don’t know who in my audience has vision issues. I don’t know who may not be able to process an image. They’re better at processing the odor words then then what they’re seeing. So I always try Teoh to make sure that I describe what’s going on because it just it just makes on. Um, the other thing is that, um, when we’re thinking about this relationship between equality and equity. We could also start thinking about barrier free, which is the step beyond that, which is really thinking inclusively if in our thinking process, we think about whichever thing we design. And that includes offense, where we have to go through the process of what would be an equal experience, what would be an equitable experience? How about we do offense that everybody can see through without needing boxes to get up? So in this image, I have the same three kids an offence. But instead of being a psyllid plank fence, it’s actually a wire friends that everybody can see through. So I really want people to shift thinking from this idea of us versus them, people with disabilities and people without disabilities, disabled people versus abled people. I want to get people started to think about. We’re all in this together, and we have to build barrier free, um, environments, whether it’s in the built environment or on the Web. So it’s really important to to start that shift in thinking

[00:35:32.74] spk_0:
okay on, and it’s sort of, um, um, I don’t know if revolutionary is too strong a term, but you’re you definitely want to shift that you run a shift, at least if not if not revolutionary, it’s ah, It’s a substantial movement from where people are thinking now, Um, my sense of it is ah, lot of Web and I and I guess we shouldn’t even limited to websites. But because all digital products, right, Whether it’s ah, yeah, we’re a word document using headings, using the headings, um, format versus you, writing the text and then highlighting it Which reader isn’t gonna recognize? So it’s all it’s all digital products, not we’re not only talking about websites. Um, my sense is that most of the thinking is that you create something and then maybe you go back and try to adapt it, which would be, you know, uh, adding, adding the same, that would be your will be the first picture that you just showed, which would be changing it. What changing the way it appears for everybody or the ways design you have the way it appears for everybody. After I’ve already done my design and creation. Then I go back and yeah, and ad code for ah screen reader. Let’s say all right. My sense is that that’s the more prevalent on yeah, more prevalent methods methods.

[00:38:24.82] spk_3:
That is what’s happening mostly out there. We really want to shift the thinking in terms of thinking about accessibility from the get go. Obviously, in our my my talking about accessibility, I never forget. The primary goal of this is making things work for people with disabilities because we have such a need to access information, quicks example. So much of the information now is Onley available online because of the coronavirus. But so many of the size that provide that information is not available because they’re not accessible. So we have. We have a failure of the system for people with disabilities accessing information, which is critical and even, maybe vital. So we want to think about accessibility from the very early phases off the first design, where this wire frame or even just concepts, one of the complaint. A lot of the people I interact with and have done for over 25 years that have been involved in this wonderful world is that people say, Hey, Nick, accessibility. Yeah, I get it, but it’s so expensive, and then I start telling them about and experience from my own life uh, I know someone who built house, and they just had two steps under the entrance and the door was fairly narrow, you know, it was 28 inch door or something like that. 30 inch? Not sure. And then they became a wheelchair user and they had to retrofit the house. They had to actually remove the front door. They had to remove bricks around the front door to make a bigger opening. They had to put a ramp in. And of course, that was very expensive. But had they actually build house that was accessible in the first place? Had they put in a door that was wider and had no step entrance? That added cost at the time of building would have been maybe three, maybe 5% mawr, instead of costing tens of thousands of dollars to To fix digital accessibility is the same thing. If you build it accessibly in the first place, it won’t cost you any more because in theory your designers, your developers, your quality and assurance testers everybody in that chain and that workflow should be having the skills and the knowledge to build it accessibly. Now the reality is and doesn’t always happen, but, um, it’s good. So exists. Ability does not have to be expensive and can be baked in from the start. A little bit like blueberry muffins. Have you ever tried to bake blueberry muffins and put the blueberries after the muffins are cooked? It’s not gonna work.

[00:39:23.22] spk_0:
Have not have not tried that. Now, Um, the only reference I could think about in, uh, popular culture blueberry muffins made That makes me think of the movie. Ah, casino. Where the The head of the casino, Um uh, tells the baker that he wants, um, the same number of blueberries in every muffin because he just cut open a muffin that had very few. And his breakfast companion had ah dozen in his And, uh, so and that. But that’s not what you’re talking about. Sorry. That’s a silly digression. I like movies. Um, and casino is a very good one.

[00:39:55.02] spk_1:
Time for our last break turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know that turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard. So people know you’re a thought leader in your field, and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for inclusive design from 20 NTC.

[00:40:00.61] spk_0:
Any other idea what other ideas do you want to share around inclusive design?

[00:43:23.50] spk_3:
For me, one of the other important concept to think about his accessibility is not a checklist. We’re using standards and guidelines. For example. The standard right now for checking it for site is accessible. Not is the Web content accessibility guidelines Version 2.1. That’s the most recent version of the guidelines. And if we’re going through that, we end up using a checklist. Our ultimate images have alternate attribute. Can we get through to all the elements on the Web page using the keyboard? Only is there enough contrast between text and background? And there’s There’s a long list. There’s like nearly 80 success criteria, and each of them have specific testing checkpoints to to look at. But if we think Onley in terms of conforming to the standard, we’re falling back into this trap of looking at putting the blueberries back in the muffin after the muffins have been baked. We’re looking at basically the minimal amount of work we need to do to get away with with it to not be sued, for example, whereas I really want people Teoh thinking in terms of, we want our website to be usable by as many people as possible with as little difficulty as possible. So we should think about getting away from accessibility In terms of checklist. The checklist is useful as a way of getting a pulse of the health of our website, but we have to look at everything else as well. And if we’ve thought about Texas ability from the very early stages of the project, then at that point that should be fairly easy. The checklist is just there as a safeguard, but we’re looking also at the best practices. For example, a ramp you’re looking at a ramp in the built environment. The Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines called for ramp to have no more than one in 12 radiant. That means the ramp doesn’t go longer than a shorter than 12 foot. For every foot of height it goes up, and that’s a minimum. Most people would, uh, mobility impairments should be able to do that. But what about putting a ramp that is with a gentle slope where it’s one and 15? Maybe it’s not gonna hurt anything. You’re just adding a couple feet to your ramp. Nine times out of 10. You don’t have a space limitation to do that. And suddenly you’ve made it easier for everyone. So thinking. In terms of digital accessibility, we can think about similar issues. For example, color contrast. The guidelines says you have to have a contrast of 4.5 to 1 to be sufficient for people with low vision. How about you? Do you use something like sticks to one? You increase the contrast a little bit, use better colors. Maybe you use a folded font appropriately. And at that point, you’ve you’ve gone beyond checklist and you’ve made the site more usable or usable for everyone.

[00:43:50.10] spk_0:
Yeah, all right. Beyond the standard of beyond the beyond the minimum standard. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:51.16] spk_1:
You make a distinction

[00:43:55.07] spk_0:
between disability and impairment. Could you flush that out, please?

[00:45:05.09] spk_3:
Yeah. I’m coming at it from having worked in the independent living movement for for a number of years, where one of the basic concept is my disability is not the fact that I use a wheelchair. My disability is the fact that you have 15 steps to get into your building. My disability is not that I’m blind, but that you’re not offering alternative format for your menu. Uh, so we’re talking about the difference between a condition and a disability. The impairment is I’m wheelchair user joys blind, Julius deaf. Those are the impairments, the condition. The disability comes into effect when society builds environments that have barriers. So in effect, the disability has not come from within. The disability comes from without. If you build something that has barriers, you disabled me. And that, I think, is a very important distinction to make.

[00:45:34.77] spk_0:
Yeah, very good. Yeah. I could see how this is. Like I said, deeply personal for you. Um, and you think you’ve been thinking about these things for decades? These these concepts, um, and the disabilities that the culture of the society has has built the disabilities that society has built. Um, how do you want to Ah, you want to wrap up, please.

[00:46:44.41] spk_3:
I’d like to leave people with one message about accessibility. It’s a continuum. it’s not a bill. I’ll or in all you know, it’s not because you feel you can’t make everything accessible that you shouldn’t even try. The more you do it to, more accessible things are gonna be and start now, just starting now, make little changes. Your you know your webs that doesn’t use headings. See if you can implement headings. Look at the little things you can do the low hanging fruits, because the more you put in, the easier is gonna be for more people to use your your site or your documents. Whether it’s pdf word whichever Web based resource is, start now and do as much as you can without necessarily worrying about being an expert. That’s done this for 20 years. Um, talk to people about excess abilities, see what they suggest and try to implement in your in your workflow in your website whether you know you’re the executive director of non profit that never really thought about it and start thinking about it. Start the discussion.

[00:46:58.82] spk_0:
Thank you. Next in help Independent accessibility. Consultant. Thank you very much for sharing neck.

[00:47:04.38] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. It’s been a pleasure.

[00:47:06.61] spk_0:
My pleasure. Please stay safe outside Vancouver and thank you very much for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? Thanks a lot for being with us

[00:47:58.98] spk_1:
next week. More from 20 anti sees Smart speakers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO

[00:48:29.56] spk_0:
creative producer is Fair Meyer Family Sure profit other 95% go out

[00:48:48.37] spk_7:
and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for August 22, 2014: Integrate Social And CRM & Technology And Organizing

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Bryan Giese & Jenn Smith: Integrate Social And CRM 

With Bryan Giese and Jenn Smith at NTC
With Bryan Giese and Jenn Smith at NTC

How do you integrate social media data into your CRM database? What social media data should you preserve? I talked to Bryan Giese, Heller Consulting’s director of marketing, and Jenn Smith, Heller’s vice president of digital agency, at the Nonprofit Technology Conference (NTC).




 Austen Levihn-Coon & Rachel Butler: Technology And Organizing

With Austen Levihn-Coon and Rachel Butler at NTC
With Austen Levihn-Coon and Rachel Butler at NTC

Technology has created opportunities for organizing, but also challenges. Austen Levihn-Coon and Rachel Butler identify the challenges and how to overcome them. They share strategies to deepen engagement beyond petition signing and identify leaders in your community. Austen is chief innovation officer at Fission Strategy and Rachel is campaign representative for the Beyond Oil campaign at Sierra Club. We talked at NTC.




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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure pseudo member nous stomach titus if it came within my ken that you missed today’s show integrates social and c r m how do you integrate social media data into your cr m database? What social media data should you preserve? I talked to brian gz heller consulting’s director of marketing, and jen smith heller’s, vice president of digital agency at the non-profit technology conference and t c and technology and organizing technology has created opportunities for organizing but also challenges. Austin levine kun and rachel butler identified the challenges and how to overcome them. The share strategies to deepen engagement beyond petition signing and identify leaders in your community. Austin is chief innovation officer at vision strategy, and rachel is campaign representative for beyond oil at sierra club. We talked at and t c on tony’s take to a new non-profit radio knowledge base sponsored by generosity siri’s hosting multi charity five k runs and walks here’s the first of the two ntcdinosaur views today with brian gz and jen smith welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc the non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen we’re at the marriott hotel wardman park in washington, d c and with me are brian gc and jen smith. Brian is director of marketing at heller consulting. Jenn smith is vice president digital agency at heller consulting. Brian jen, welcome, thanks so much. Thank you very much for having i’m glad. Thank you for taking time on a busy conference. You’re workshop topic is bridging the gap between social media and cr m let’s. Make sure everybody’s on the same platform on the c r m of course, constituent relationship management which would be your date abate your software for fund-raising and all things engagement with with your constituents don’t have that right. Yes, that is correct. We’ll have no, i know the acronym, right. Is that how you would? What would define cr m as? Yes, definitely. Serum is, you know, your your underlying systems that keep track of everything that your constituents might do. So you know the best case. Everything is connected with the central point being your actual constituent so you can find out. Everything they do across all of your efforts, whether it’s volunteering or fund-raising or communications, if you can have that all center around that one single constituent it’s a great thing, instead of trying to merge databases and merge content. Okay, and thank you and jen what’s the what is the gap between social and cr? Um, well, you know, i think that socialist still a relatively new it’s, a new endeavor for a lot of organizations not necessarily knew in terms of the content they’re creating, but in terms of how they’re thinking about data, so, you know, you can get a lot of information, you can get a lot of social data out there, but how you tie that back into your serum and what you actually do with that data and how it can change things that your organization, i think it’s still a little bit of a mystery for a lot of organizations, so i think, you know, when you’re thinking about social media, you’re really trying to say here’s, a place where we’re engaging with donors and constituents, um, and we want to make sure that we’re capturing the right data from those engagements in order to really make use of that in your overall marketing and communications strategy with with a donor and constituent does this start with mission? Is that the place to evaluate start with our evaluation of how we’re going to integrate these two doesn’t begin with mission. Yeah, i think it always needs to begin with mission, right? And i think it begins really with with your goals and what you need to do strategically as an organization. So, you know, you need to be thinking about what we want to do with fund-raising what do we want to do with advocacy? How do we want to mobilize people? And those things need to still remain in the core of what you’re thinking about even when you’re talking about social media. Okay on dh how do we start this? The integration between social and r c r m you want to field that one? It’s it’s? It depends upon your organization. I think jen said it just a moment ago is starting off with your goals and what you want to achieve what you want to what type of communication you want tohave with your constituents and another argument. Why? Are we in social? Right where we drink, right? Why are you doing it? Where do you want to reach out to them? Where does your audience live? Are they on twitter on facebook on linked in? Are they just gonna read blog’s? How do you connect in with them? And what do you want them to do? What messages do you want to send them? Once you figure out what messages you want, then you can figure out where’s the best place to put them. And then how do you want them to react to those messages? What actions do you want them to take? And and how do you want them to react back to you? Are you trying to just get more followers? Um, that’s a great thing. But you really want to be able to do something with them once they’re following you. Do you have a conversation? Do they feed information back to you? Do they let you know what’s going on in their world on the front lines of whatever your mission might be. And are you encouraging them to do so? Hopefully, yeah. Back. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully that’s where you really want to? Do you want to create this interactive engagement to make people feel mohr integrated and important in your cause and not just give us money? Give us money? You know, you want them to really feel involved in what you dio and an important part of your mission because they really are, you know, obviously we all know that, but people don’t always feel that way. They give their money, they volunteer, they walk away from it, and then they see something in their e mail or something that comes into their mailbox. And they’re like, oh, i did do this feeling kind of transactional. Yes, not relationship, right? You mentioned. Where are your people? Where are the people? You’re going to be engaging through social. How do we find out where they are? Wei have just sorry you were about poor guy. Took a breath ready to talk and i have more questions. But i’m trying to start a hypothetical spot. Supposed to just have them. Ah, us mail. We just have us mail addresses and an email. I suppose we have those. How do we know what social channels we should be in to be talking? T this? This constituency, i think i think a good way to start off with is but there’s a couple approaches, one of them is to do smaller tests and, you know, if you set up in twitter, you set up in facebook and start reaching out in telling your audience that you’re there. So if you have their email address, you have their direct mail address put those presence is up and say, yes, we do have a twitter account, we do have a facebook account, follow them if you like us and then you’ll start to see one gets a little more traffic than the other, you know, ifyou’re on linked in you’ll see, oh, mohr and more people have us on linked in, so we’ll put more effort there, there’s others there’s tools that are available that let you take your e mail address and it’ll search all the channels and say, yes, this person is on twitter is on facebook is on linked in, and i’ll show you all the accounts that they’re on so you could bring that data back into your cr m and connect that together and that’s a huge help, any tools that you can share that sites you can share that that would enables users non-profits to do that there’s one that directly does that it’s called small act their social profile. They do it. Casey golden, ceo of small act, has been on the show from bb khan. Yes, blackbaud unconference last year, casey well, mabe in two years ago, but i was there two years, but one of those past two years of e become casey casey golden was from small act was on. Yes, they have ah there sweet of tools is great for taking your existing set of data and constituents and connecting that to whatever their social networks might be. Okay, so that’s a great way to come back and say, these people are involved in these networks and they’re active there influencers or they just have an accountant don’t do anything so it’s figuring out where they are and if they participate, if they have a facebook account, it might not really matter if they never really use it. And i believe when casey was on, he was on with someone from blackbaud and i apologized to that someone i don’t remember his name hyre they they had done their homework before coming on the show and actually labelled me a key influence, sir, i think i was just so they get me to air the interview, i think it was heavily overstated. I’m barely a user, and but they were they were very generous, jen. Now, once we know where our constituents are, how do we start? Teo engage and then we’ll talk about putting that together with rcr. Um, yeah, i mean, you know, one thing i want to say just in relation to where people are is i think, you know, a lot of organizations end up feeling like they have to be every place when it comes to social media. So as soon as you know, instagram got big, oh, god, we have to have an instagram account or so we have to have a pinterest account or we have to start to get on snapchat there’s a lot of pressure within social media to kind of be on the next new thing, and i think for non-profits, you know, you’ve got limited resource is limited time it’s difficult to prove for a lot of organizations that the investment is worth it when it comes to social media, and i think there were getting better all the time at ways to do that, but i think, you know, as brian said, i think if you start small and and starting with the big too, starting with facebook and twitter is probably going to be a pretty safe bet for a lot of organizations, and once you do that, you will start to see patterns of, you know what? Like, we really have a lot more engagement on twitter and so maybe that’s really where we want to focus more of our investment on and then, you know, and then i think it’s another really difficult thing for organizations to do is to not just treat it like it’s, another channel to push out information and organizations tend to get really wrapped up in like, this is our agenda, these air our goals, these, you know, this is the program i want to tell everybody about without necessarily really listening to their constituents about really what they want to hear or how they want to engage with you or what kind of lifestyle are they leading, you know? So i think, you know, being able to take some risks about not always having, you know, tweets or facebook post that are, you know, specifically on mission, you know, about the organization about a program, but are really relating to people, you know, it was like, you know, if you love animals, this is probably something else you think would, you know, is great, you know, you should totally watch his video, and it may not be directly related to mission at all, but it helps really build loyalty and social media channels when you when your authentic on dh, when you’re not so focused on this is just a channel for us to push something out. But that it’s a way to start to develop, to weigh engagement, but isn’t that what we do in our offline in our real life? How you interact on facebook or twitter yourself, right? Found i’m walking past a restaurant, i think a friend of mine might like it, you know, you snap a picture and said, right, i read an article thought this might interest you forward it to a friend right now, just talking about essentially right, bringing what are thoughtfulness, right online and into the social network, right it is, and it’s it’s the same conversations you might have in person with someone. So, you know, if you’re sitting there talking to your friend and you only talked about your work and your mission and that’s, all you talked about, they’d stopped listening. They would walk away and they’re tired of hearing of it. But then if you say, hey, i saw these other things and you expand the conversation into the richness of us as humans and have that conversation. Then you have friends that stick around, and they like to talk to you because they get a great wealth of information from you and that you should do the same thing with your social networks and be able to have those engaging conversations and listen back to what they say and be interested in what’s going on in their life right? E-giving anything duitz e-giving, e-giving, ding, ding, ding ding. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get a drink. E-giving this’s. The way we’re hosting part of my french new york city guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back french is that common language. Yes, they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and it common desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them, shed their story, join us, pardon my french new york city every monday from one to two p, m. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Yeah. Dahna listening key, right? Absolutely not. When we have a conversation. It’s two ways and right. So don’t treat our social platforms is just bulletin boards where where we post and you eat and we we’ve had the broadcast model for a very long time what our media has always been and it’s sometimes difficult to transition into an engagement model, but you really do need to do a lot more listening and finding out what what is interesting to them now, how do we start to integrate this with our cr m that’s? Your that’s, your larger your larger topic? What? What? We need to he’s thinking about teo accomplish that. So i think there’s a few things. I mean, we keep talking about listening. You know, i do think it’s worth mentioning that there are social listening tools out there. And the way that you were identified, for example, is a key influencer was probably through one of those tools, right? Maybe through small act, you know of saying, hey, you’re a cute influencer, and it might be because they said let’s look at how many people follow tony and that’s. What made you a key influence or not? Necessarily, that you tweeted all the time, right? So i think on and let’s take a step further and how engaged those heimans retweets, right? Replies so it’s not just the right number of followers, but how engaged are they with your content, right? Right, so, you know, so you really can get a wealth of data from from those types of tools and when you’re doing social listening and i think what is really important is actually to just go back to some fundamentals and say, ok, if i were looking at everybody talks about a three hundred and sixty degree view of a constituent, right? So if that were really possible and what we were looking at, what would be the data that would be really important to see in a donor record when you’re talking about social media and it might be, you know, you might think about your major donors and you might say, you know, what would be really helpful for a major donor staff would be to know how much that major donor is engaging with us on facebook or twitter, right or or if we’re solving kind of a customer service issue, right? So we had somebody complained on our facebook page, and we responded within twenty four hours and here’s how it got resolved. And so that when that major donor stuart, goes ahead and calls that person a week later, they can say we, you know, we heard you had a little problem, but i think it got resolved, how’s everything going right? So i think part of it is really being able to step back and think, ok, what’s the data that’s going to be most useful to bring back into our serum, and that is going to be different for each organization. And i think it really should be driven by your overall organizational goals and strategy on and then you, because the data could just get completely overwhelming. You know, social listening sometimes, like, you know, you can get a lot of noise, so you have to be really strategic in terms of how you set it up and then what you do with that data. Once you get it on dh talking to the different constituents in your organization about what their needs might be, right, what would the major gift officer liketo have? Right as she picks up the phone and great calls calls her boss because the thing that’s probably least useful but is really what is often how we measure success and social is, you know, number of fans or followers, right? And and it is a measure i’m not saying it’s not important, i mean, i think when you’re reporting back to your executive leadership and you’re saying, hey, we grew our facebook page by ten thousand, you know, fans or whatever i mean, that is a way to measure, but i think it’s really going beyond that and saying, ok, so what? What do we do with those ten thousand people like, how can we serve them better? You know how when we make the experience with us a better experience so that they stick with us forever? You know? And and that’s i think those follow-up questions and thinking about your data in terms of those follow-up questions is really, really key, okay? And it’s important to to consider you’re gonna have different segments of your social media audience? You might have a donor who donates lots of money to your organisation never tweets never gets on facebook or anything like that you might have someone who only donates ten dollars, a year to your organization. Who’s a huge advocate for your organization. And you have to deal with each of those differently. You know, they’re they’re both definitely vitally important to your organization, but you have to include them in different ways. You want to make sure that the person who’s an advocate has the information. They need to talk about your organization effectively and then the donor. They want to see a return on what they’ve given you. So they want to see something that’s important about? Yes, i donated this money. What is it doing for the actual recipients? Is it delivering the mission? They want to find out about that and and see that result. So you have to be very conscious of what you’re different. Social media audiences in general are interested in and provide that information to them. And with such a direct channel you khun definitely look through it and find it. Do you have advice on where to preserve this information within a person’s record? I mean, if we start with razor’s edge, are we able to drill into that level of detail? Like, where would you preserve this information that a program officer or a major gift officer might liketo have? Where we where we actually put it in the c r m? Yeah, years ago, i think that’s a little tricky question because it really depends on the serum that the the organization is using, you might end up needing to do some custom fields you might not depending on what you’re using. So so i think part of that is part of figuring out your strategy for how this comes back into your sierra is saying, where is this actually going to live? And how are we going to access it? And how are we going to run reports, you know, or what can we pull? You know, from a tool set that we’re using, you know, that allows us to get kind of a big picture of you, you know, outside of the serum in different tools will let you do different things like, you know, with sales force if you use radiance six and marketing cloud, they’re already set up to connect together and tio integrate all that data, so that process is pretty much established with small ax tools you could do a data upend, and it brings it back in and connects it for you. But then you have to work with your database administrators to figure out okay, what specific fields are going where? What new tables do we need develop? So you kind of have to work that out in very specific cases. There’s not just a, you know, a big old plug in that’s the social media plug in that everybody uses. I’ll also say just not to plug our session too much tomorrow, but we’ll be joined by daniel birgitta from the national wildlife federation, and she actually they went through and did a small act depends on dh, so she’ll be talking a little bit about that experience and what data they were looking at and how that got presented back to the rest of the staff, and i think it would be a really interesting, you know, organization that’s actually executed some of these things and how that’s look, can you can you talk a little about either that example or another client example, where, uh, i’m sort of interested in in the in the what we need to capture? On dh what? The benefit of that was any you share a client story around something, you know i could share. And i could share an example from something that i actually heard it. Dreamforce. So i went to a social listening session at dream force. And and there were some folks there from the gates foundation talking about their social listening program. What is dreamforce, dream forces? Salesforce conference that’s just todo norvig that’s their eyes. Their ntcdinosaur yes. Thank you. So i interrupted, but i like, you know, i don’t know how to be behind, okay, but, you know, but they were talking about how, you know, when they were when the u n general assembly was meeting, that they had specific you no interest in listening for certain terms in order to engage with people around certain issues. And it was it was a really interesting, practical use of social listening. In terms of, you know, one of their goals was to talk a lot about malaria, right? So so they did some social listening around malaria and the u n general assembly. And when those conversations really started a trend and that was, you know, something. People were talking about, you know, the foundation was able to capitalize on that and really focus some of their communications out into the world around what people were already talking about, and tio insert them in a really smart way into the conversation. So i, you know, i think there’s a lot of different examples, but but you do need to be pretty strategic and how you decide, teo, you know, deal with your data, do social listening on dh, what you decide to bring back into your systems and the ultimate benefit of all this is deeper relationships. Is that is that what we’re striving? Well and ultimately conversion, you know, i mean, i think like, it can be difficult to measure conversion sometimes, but i think, you know, in the end, organizations need to raise more money, right? And so how dio how do these better relationships are more engaged or two way engagement? Really, with your donors and constituents help fuel conversion and whether that’s conversion too? You know, we need more activists on the ground, you know, taking action or changing a law, or we need more fund-raising in order that, you know, help establish. Or run a program you know, that is ultimately what organizations need to do is is convert people. So i think, you know, there is a way where you can have a better customer or constituent service type relationship through social media, a better, better engagement, really, in terms of content that you have out there that can result in better conversion down the road, we still have a couple of minutes left. What else? What else do you want to say about this? I haven’t asked you about anything we talked about. You want to go deeper on anything your i know you’re feeling in our workshop. So what do you want to say? One of the big challenges? Whenever we have the discussion with people about this is, you know, exactly like you were asking, what specific data do i add in and it’s, we can’t emphasize enough how important it is to think about what you want to achieve. I know we’ve said that a couple times, but, you know, we keep hammering it in because everybody forgets about it, and they’re like, oh, no, no, no, we just we just want to get followers and tweet. Counts and and how much they tweet and how many people listen to him and it’s it’s so much more than that. And it’s really that strategy part and what are you trying to do? Why do you want those people? Why do you want more people following on twitter? What do you want them to do? What’s the purpose of having them follow that we were right trying to get up and what’s the purpose of following what kind of communication do you wanna have? And to me, it’s not any different from what we went through with email marketing. It started off the same way where everybody thought email was the next great thing, and we’re just going to send out a billion e mails and everybody’s going to come running after a couple of years you figured out you needed a better strategy for it, and social media is going through that same process of of what works, what doesn’t work? How do you communicate with people through this broadcast? Television went through it, radio went through it. Every new media channel that opens up goes through that same process of figuring out what you can do. What works? How do you make it effective? And how do you really track it and prove its worth gen anything you like, tio, you know, i just would say that it is i worked for a little bit with the corporate sector in particular around social media, and i think, you know, there is there is a great pressure to prove the value of social media, i think, you know, across across corporate culture across non-profit culture, but i will say that, you know, corporations tend to think of it a little bit more as this is a way that we build brand loyalty, right? And and in a lot of ways, it’s that’s, incredibly difficult to measure, like, how do you measure loyalty, right? But they’re spending a lot of money and trying to figure it out. And so i think, you know, that’s, something that the non profit sector will benefit from is the closer they get to kind of figuring some of that out in terms of how do we really measure, you know what this really did for us and you know, and that directly impacts their investment. How much are they going to invest? In social media, right? So so i do think that there’s some everybody’s kind of struggling with us a little, but but i agree with brian it’s, you know, it’s, another channel, it’s, another marketing channel, right? It’s not really mysterious like it’s. Another way to talk to people? It’s a slightly different format, you know, it’s, obviously a shorter format, but, you know, but email was a much shorter format than direct mail, right? So i feel like we’re kind of we’re on. We’re on kind of a very similar path, and really, we just want to have the best kind of engagement in foster the most loyalty for organizations and social media is a really great way to do that. Do you find many clients come saying they get the type of questioning that you’re suggesting, general, why? Why are we doing social media from the board? You get bored? Or maybe ceos? Why? Why? Why are we doing this? Yeah, i mean, i certainly in in the for-profit space, you know, social media budgets are minuscule compared to their other budgets around advertising and public relations, right? So the pressure to prove, uh, you know, return on investment, for example, it depends on the company, but some companies say we don’t really care. This is like, you know, less than one percent of our annual expenditure, right? Okay, that could be actually liberated, right? And others say, you need to prove to us that you know, the reason we’re giving you another x amount of dollars is because it’s actually doing something for our bottom line, but i think brands more and more are seen in particular, i think the loyalty that is inspired by the really great customer service, you know, right? And that that in particular for social media for brands becomes, um becomes really important, you know? I mean it, you end up feeling better about, you know, united airlines, for example, if they respond to you when you complain on twitter, you know, you alright somebody’s actually listening to me and i’m not sitting on hold for forty five minutes, you know? So so i think there’s a lot to be learned there just in terms of, you know, responding and engaging and the listening and the things that really in a in a regular relationship, not online, are really important to people. On di think thatyou wantto you want to foster that as well on your social media program? Brian, we have a couple of seconds. You are no it just increasing, increasing that visibility. You know, if it’s a diabetes foundation or something like that, if you see lots of tweets of them providing advice and help too people with diabetes and you visibly see that, then you see the mission is being accomplished. You see that they’re really doing what they set out to do and that it helps your organization overall help you convert. You are seeing it absolutely into as you just, jen. Whatever the forever conversion might mean it’s. Not necessarily all about older fund-raising but what could very well be excellent. Thank you very much. Thanks. Both. Thank you. Taking time in a busy conference. Brian. Brian, g c is i have it. Don’t don’t coach me. Director of marketing heller consulting jen smith, vice president, digital agency heller consulting. Thank you both very much. Thank you. Pleasure. Tony martignetti cover it. Not non-profit radio coverage of and t c twenty fourteen the non-profit technology conference. Thanks very much for being with us. I have another. Auntie si interview very shortly generosity siri’s you know them, they host multi charity peer-to-peer five k runs and walks multi-channel ity means that you can have an event with a small number of runners because together all the charities at an event make up many hundreds of runners, and then you have a great fund event all day around a five k run and walk. They have events coming up in new jersey, miami, atlanta, new york city, philadelphia and toronto. If you think a run walk makes sense for your fund-raising talk to dave lynn he’s the ceo tell him you’re from non-profit radio he’s at seven one eight five o six, nine triple seven and on the web generosity siri’s dot com i have a new non-profit radio knowledge base this week, online engagement, real dialogue, real engagement in the social networks is critical. You’ve heard lots of guests talk about this, it takes strategy and planning and staff and their time and patients. I’ve got links to videos and other interviews with beth cantor, amy sample ward, j frost on a bunch of others all around the topic of online engagement. Those air at tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, twenty second of august thirty third show of the year here’s my interview from ntcdinosaur on technology and organizing welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen and tc the hashtag is fourteen and tc we’re at the marriott wardman park hotel in washington, d c and with me are austin levine kun and rachel butler. Austin is chief innovation officer for fish in strategy, and rachel butler is campaign representative for beyond oil. Austin rachel, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for taking time. Busy at a busy conference. Your your workshop topic is real talk on technology and organizing. Rachel technology has created challenges for organizing. I thought technology was improving our lives and making things so much simpler. Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that really it goes both ways. Technology has created a lot of opportunities for organizing, and it’s also created some challenges that are new on that the world that that i work in the world that we work in has has had teo learn how to use these new tools in the most effective way. To create social change, what are what are some of the challenges that you’re seeing? I think there are a lot of challenges around technology and organizing in making sure that the new technology tools that we have at our disposal don’t overtake and overcome a lot of the tried and true grassroots organizing methods when it comes down to it to create social chains and the campaigns that i work on there’s really nothing that replaces relation, organizing one to one conversations with people and that’s really part of the tried and true methods of organizing that technology can provide opportunities, tio, expand the reach that we are looking at with with the kind of outreach and campaigns that we do. But it’s, really the grassroots organizing tools that that’ll help actually makes sense of of the the reach that technology is able to give us and actually translate that into real bored world change. And i would hope that part of what technology could do is bring us two potential people tto have these deeper relationships with way we’ve broadened our reach, sort of at the at the initial stage at the meeting stage. Absolutely okay, austin, more more let’s, talk more about the challenges before we come. Absolutely and i think i think one of the things building off of what rachel was saying that i cz difficult is really making sure that you’re using the tools that we have at our disposal effectively, and i think a lot of organizations all of a sudden, sudden have access toe so much more data about the people that they’re interested in their cause but don’t necessarily know how to use it effectively, or, um, are having the challenge of understanding you have all these thousands of people who sign your petition online, but how do you actually transition from a petition signer to somebody who is willing to show up in an event or to deliver a those petitions that at the end of the day, too their representative in congress and so on with all these advantages and expanding the met of supporters that you’re able tio really attract your cause? Come these challenges with how do you then deal with or use effectively that other tools or that tools that you have available actually help to train and then to mobilize people? Okay, and what are some of these tools that we’re talking about for, for listeners, perhaps warrant themselves organizing. We’re talking about what kind of tools and then also it’s clearly data as well, right, and one of the one of the more common ones that a lot of organizations have started to look to his hand in this on online petition platform, it’s. Whether whether that’s on your own site or change that or gore move on has developed their own petition in-kind user generated petition platform that’s one of the opportunities to engage with new audiences and new supporters in one of the ones where that has also started to cause many challenges within the adivasi community, as people are still our learning over time, what were they used best for? And where are they not going to be effective? Okay, interesting. So you know, those of us who are outside the organizing community are not aware that technology and these tools are are creating some obstacles for you. Can we can we talk specifically? About what? What? Some of the online petition tools. What kinds of problems are created by them? Yeah, absolutely. Were what, like what? And so i think. One is there becomes this expectation that you’re able to win campaigns with petitions on lee, ok, and so what? And then money is starting to g o and pressures on non-profits to use petitions to raise the, um there visibility of the campaign that they’re working on, and that works for that one specific piece. But you’re not going to be able to win long term campaigns just by starting petitions, there’s a whole host of other tactics that and campaign strategies that need to accompany in online petition for it to be successful. Rachel has a good bit of experience with on this type of work with a beyond oil as well in the campaign strategy, peace and sort of this conversion. Yeah, so the way that i like to think about it is that the’s petition tools and a lot of these online tools are exactly that their tools to enable effective campaigning. And so when we have a petition tool, you know, that brings people in the door. The petition is one tactic that’s part of a larger campaign, and one of the challenges that i think austin is speaking to is what’s that arc that we’re building what’s that overall long term strategy that a petition is an important part of it’s, an important tool, but there’s there’s much more to winning a campaign and toe actually creating change, whether it’s through the sierra club’s beyond oil campaign or any campaign that’s out there there’s much more to it than just the petition, and then delivering those petition signatures. It’s an ongoing process, and that’s really where we get back to the basics of grassroots organizing. And once you have supporters are interested in issue, how do you activate them? How do you mobilize them? How do you give them the skills that they need to become organizer’s in their own right rather than just signers on a petition and at the outset, we need to have our strategy developed let’s not just put up a petition exactly. Let’s get twenty five thousand signatures on a petition that’s not a strategy that’s a that’s, a that’s, a tool and part of ah, you said, you know, part of ah process in a spectrum, and it really translates to social media also where there’s an incentive from to have more facebook fans to have more twitter followers, but the challenge that emerges from that is then what? What next? What after that and one advocates for youth, one of the organizations that was on there was represented on our panel this morning. One of the examples of the work that they do is actually when you get people commenting on their facebook page, when all of a sudden you have these thousands of support fans online, you need to actually reach out to them and see what is it like, how how would you like to be involved and really build that two way street, that relation relationship that rachel was speaking about in order to then bring them into the fold and start to build your campaign more effectively for the long term? Okay? And so the metrics for success in the pathway to success isn’t based on just the number of fans on your facebook vanity metric, right? It’s really about the deeper organizing that that enables, before we get to howto overcome these challenges, rachel, is there another one that you can share again with, you know, people who were maybe outside the organizing community, aside from what? What austin gave voice to that petitions seemed tio be the end all and be all t people what other? What other? The obstacles we try to overcome and using these tools? Yeah, i mean, i wouldn’t even necessarily talk about petitions as an obstacle. I would talk about them or as an entry point. And so if using a petition is an entry point is a great way to engage people in a campaign and some of these platforms that have been developed in recent years allow anybody to use the tools that historically have been in the hands of non-profit organizations and really democratized them and provided platform and an avenue for people that teo start their own campaigns. And so i think part of the part of the challenge that that that we’re working out, you know, as a community of advocates right now is, you know, everybody at this point has the ability to start a petition and then there’s that next step of how do we how do we really democratize that training piece so that anybody who’s starting a petition was also has the skills and has the resource is that their fingertips to how to build that into? An actual campaign. Okay, so the field is becoming a lot more crowded because of the empowerment, because anybody can create a campaign. But how? Well, well skilled are they take it to the next step? Yeah. I mean, i don’t even know if i would i would talk about it in in terms of the field being crowded. It’s that these, you know, there are lots and lots and lots of issues in this world that we need to solve, and we need lots and lots and lots of people to get involved to solve them. So i see it as really an opportunity for people who see an issue in their world to be able to have access to tools, to solve that. So to me, it’s it’s a huge opportunity to get training into the hands of people to you know who are interested in making a better world. And i think these online petition platforms are, you know, it’s, a it’s, a great tool and resource to get people involved and one of the next opportunities that were looking tio two faces, you know, howto latto bring it just beyond starting a petition and mohr into the sense of how are we training? Um, how are we training organizer’s? So that, you know, organizing is not just something that organizations do it’s something that people d’oh. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Lively conversation. Top trends, sound advice, that’s. Tony martignetti, yeah, that’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef. It’s not always just don’t online, right? It’s not yeah, go ahead, austin, i think two and two that one of the challenges that is presented with this democratization of kind of social change or being able, anybody being able to say start a petition or sign a petition is then kind of that that next step of identifying we’re identifying which of those petition starters, we’re going to be the most effective leaders and able to then carrie, their campaign through to the end and actually win. And it’s not i think we’ll move on, for example, is struggling with this right now in terms of how do you know which which petition starter is going to be the most effective advocate in the long term? And then, are you able to identify that person were based on certain sides of chris characteristics or some other assessment, and then if they are, and then how can you train them and support them as they go through their campaign so that they’re more likely to be successful in the long run? Or more likely to start more petitions in the future and really become leaders in their communities? Let’s talk. About overcoming some of these challenges. Now, it sounds like it’s a lot more than just share this. But thank you for signing. Please share. We need to go a lot deeper than that. But again, those of us not in the community of organizer’s not not familiar, not aware of how you go a lot deeper. And rachel had it. How do we do some of the some of the training, for instance? Sure. That’s a great question on dh training is one of those pieces that personally, from my perspective, you know, i would love to see the development of better technology tools. Teo teo, you know, not only democratize the who can start a petition but democratize the training that it takes teo effect to run effective grassroots campaigns. So my background is is in grassroots organizing. You know, i come at the work that i do from a perspective of, you know, local organizing from state organizing, and since then i’ve moved. I’ve worked with national campaigns, and so training is one of those those pieces that gives people the tools. Tio i not only identify a problem and maybe started, you know, in the just sort of what’s what’s happening sometimes is that, you know, people identify a problem, they start a petition, but when we’re talking about campaigning, there’s there’s a whole other set of steps that goes on before you start a petition, which you can talk about is a tactic. But when you identify a problem there’s a there’s, a set of planning that that goes on in organizing, where you, you know, you identify what solution it is, you’re working for, you make it a smart goal, and then you figure out what’s the best strategy to achieve that goal, and only after that strategic planning has gone on. Do you go forward with implementing tactics like we’re going to use the petition as a tactic to reach out build abroad, supporter base and then from there will mobilize that supporter base by doing tactic non-technical number one tech to come or to attacking number three, you know, whatever it is that it that fits for your strategy, that’s going to achieve your overall goal to solve that problem that you’ve identified austin, anything running at about the training? Yeah, i think one of the i think, as rachel was saying one of the things that is key and many of these instances where there is an issue that your work men, organizations working on and there may be individuals out there that have started petition a petition on change dot org’s to try and change this, but reaching out to those both either the i think a combination of the individual that has already started the petition, but then also to your network in the communities where you’re looking to effect change and find asking them who are your existing like volunteers are leaders that are active on this issue and then asking them to start the petition so that they’re actually much more well versed in the issue and able to have the likelihood of being more successful and before that even happens, doing the media training, doing the, um so so that they’re actually once this petition is promoted, it’s not just a petition it’s a media moment and you have a spokesperson and you’re able actually tow start to mobilize around it. I could use a little more about identifying who the among the many now now in power petition creators how do we identify how among? Who among them are likely to be the the strongest leaders in the issue? Great question and there’s a there’s, a variety of different ways that this can happen and some larger organizations tend tohave metrics, systems of metrics in their databases that they used to assess how act active and individual supporter is, have they? How many different types of actions have they taken? Are they eh facebook fan? Do they have they signed an online petition? Have they attended in person event? And so through kind of those metrics, you’re able to identify some of the more likely candidates that could be those really strong super supporters in for your campaign. In addition to that, yeah, there’s the opportunity to tio have these people then go through essentially what are a series of tests instead of like an application, you asked them to take another action a couple like write a letter to the editor or write a blogger post about this issue that you care about, and in that way, vet them for your organization and then and as a result, are able to really, um, identify passively who who these people are that are most likely. To be good, good leaders for your campaign. So something that appears a call to be a call of action may actually be an organization sort of putting you to a test and seeing if you’re stepping up. Absolutely okay, yeah. Rachel, you’re going. Yeah, i was going to add. I would say, you know, it’s it’s one way vetting them is one way to think about it, but i think another way to think about it is providing opportunities to take further action because it’s, you know, think of if you get sent a petition online when i get a petition in my inbox, it may be an issue that i really care about a lot, but there’s no way for the organizer of that petition to know unless i’m provided another opportunity to take action. So part of what austin is talking about is providing those additional steps, those additional opportunities for somebody to rise to the top if it’s an issue that they are really passionate about. So part of what is what austin is talking about is providing a you know, what’s called a ladder of engagement, quote unquote, that allows people tio take further action. And get further engaged on an issue that they’re interested in in and passionate about going and what’s important to realize at the same time is that the latter is not the same for everybody and that some of your more passionate advocates are going to be turned off when you’re asking them to sign an online petition because they don’t know they know that they want to do more, and you have to give them that opportunity and so understanding that some of your more active supporters are going to be turned off by your request for them to do a any action when what they really want is to organize their friends and their community around the issue. And how are you going to know that? How do you know if you’ve offended someone? Because you’re ask is too small and here’s where the interesting challenge comes in? Is that it’s it’s an ongoing attest and battle tio identified teo figure out within your own community? What are those indicators were one of the easiest ways is really to talk to your supporters to send them an e mail to call them after they take an initial action. And or don’t take one after they’ve our been so active for a long time, okay? And in the world of of traditional grassroots organizing, part of part of one of the tools that’s used to really identify what somebody’s interested in what they are passionate about is is a one to one conversation. So you actually sit down with somebody and talk to them and ask them, you know what it what is it that motivates you? What’s, what are you interested in? And that way you’re able to not only meat your supporters where they’re at, but you’re able to gauge what’s the best way and what’s the way that they’re most interested in being involved. So i think part of part of the, um, one of the challenges that we’re facing is how do you use a lot of these tried and true grassroots organizing techniques and apply them in a digital world where you’ve got the challenges of just, you know, being in front of a screen rather than face-to-face we’ve also got these challenges of scale where you’ve got, you know, potentially, you know, one hundred thousand people signing a petition, so i think that’s part of that’s, part of the challenges that come along with technology and organizing and in in the real world, in grassroots organizing campaigns, there are some tried and true methods and tactics that we use and tools that we use teo build and win on issues and learning how to use those in the digital world is part of what you see happening right now. Okay, we’re gonna leave it there. Thank you both very much. Thank you. Uh, thank you. My pleasure. Austin levine kun is chief innovation officer for fishing strategy. And rachel butler is campaign representative for beyond oil again, thanks very much. Taking time. Thank you. Pleasure. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference. Thank you very much for being with us. My thanks, as always to everybody at the non-profit technology network and ten. And at and t c was great fun being there. That was last march or april. There was last april. Loved it next week. Dori clark is with me for the hour to talk about your personal brand. Whether you’re an employee or out on your own, you’ve got a brand. What is it? And how do? You manage yours. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com. Remember generosity siri’s for those five k runs and walks, generosity, siri’s, dot com or seven one eight five o six, nine, triple seven. Our creative producer is clear. My raph sam liebowitz is our line producer shows social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell. 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