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Special Episode: Coronavirus & Leadership

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Lorraine Gordon & Catherine Hyde: Coronavirus & Leadership
Listen with compassion. Trust. Be vulnerable. Leaders, bring your heart and your curiosity forward and you can overcome any team challenge. Even today’s. My guests are Lorraine Gordon, principal at Lead With Heart, and Catherine Hyde, senior director of digital engagement for Enterprise Community Partners. (Part of our virtual #20NTC coverage)




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Transcript for 484a_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200413.mp3

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[00:00:42.37] spk_2:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit Technology Conference. Of course, the conference had to be canceled, but we are persevering. Virtually Vie Zoom sponsored a 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant her mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guest now are Lorraine Gordon and Katherine Hide. Lorraine is principal at lead with heart, and Catherine is senior director of digital engagement at Enterprise Community Partners. The Rain and Catherine. Welcome to our coverage of 20 ntc.

[00:01:00.90] spk_3:
Thank you Were thrilled to be here.

[00:01:04.67] spk_5:

[00:01:04.91] spk_2:
very glad it worked out. And I’m glad to know that each of you is well and safe on in Maryland around the Baltimore area.

[00:01:12.84] spk_5:

[00:01:14.24] spk_6:
let’s get started with you,

[00:01:27.70] spk_2:
Lorraine. What? You’re you’re NTC topic is this situation calls for leadership. Uh, what What do I do now? Yeah. Now? Yeah. Now what do I do? Um what What is it that ah, the two of you want to bring to the leadership conversation?

[00:01:33.66] spk_6:
Well, when we plan to present at the conference it was What do you

[00:01:38.65] spk_0:
do when you’re in a situation when you haven’t upset, you have a disruption. You have something that happens whether it’s trust or a project is jeopardized or

[00:01:49.87] spk_6:
something where you need to defuse,

[00:01:51.74] spk_0:
um, the tension or the upset. Um, and

[00:02:17.04] spk_6:
this is a prime one we’ve got at the Corona virus way. Could have never planned for this, right, Catherine? No. Our recession is about how do you bring your heart and curiosity to self a team challenge? You know how you show up in that? What kind of insights you bring? Um, so we’re gonna talk about that. And cancer is

[00:02:18.34] spk_0:
gonna share a little bit about the learning objectives of what we hope to accomplish in that.

[00:02:23.74] spk_2:
Okay. You wanna You wanna state the objectives, Catherine, before we get it?

[00:02:27.28] spk_3:
Sure. I would be happy to heart

[00:02:29.62] spk_2:
and curiosity before we get there.

[00:02:52.08] spk_3:
Yes, absolutely. So we had three learning objectives here. One is to build your leadership awareness. That is just your understanding of off. What are the components of leadership and how do you bring them? Forward and ah, hint. It’s got a lot to do with heart and curiosity. So the other the 2nd 1 is to reflect on the barriers to high performance, what’s getting in the way when the when the team isn’t functioning. And one of the things we wanna underscores that leadership is something that could be done by anybody. At any level. Any member of the team can step up and take help, present a healthier way for the team dynamic to move forward. And

[00:03:15.92] spk_4:
then we’re gonna help

[00:03:21.14] spk_3:
you lead leverage, some tools and approaches that would, um, help defuse some of the conflict that might arise. And certainly some of the tensions that teams have, especially when they’re working remotely and they don’t have each other to bounce off of in person.

[00:03:42.33] spk_2:
Okay, let’s stay with you. And, uh, heart and curiosity are not words that are typically associated with leadership. But you’re you’re opening things up. So, uh, star expand our thinking. What, what? What’s the role of heart and curiosity and leadership?

[00:04:27.84] spk_3:
Well, if any of you are familiar with Renee Brown, she speaks about vulnerability and how important that is to leadership. And that is your heart. Bringing your yourself your whole self, allowing your team to bring their whole self, and we’ll talk more about this later. But the idea of how to listen with compassion and how to speak with clarity and the curiosity comes from this approach that we don’t have all the answers. We don’t know all the background. So coming at this coming at any situation, whether it’s conflict, attention or otherwise with your curiosity, is a way to break through some of the barriers.

[00:04:31.41] spk_2:
Okay, vulnerability is, uh, it’s a good adjective.

[00:04:35.12] spk_5:
I like I I admire

[00:05:35.57] spk_2:
people who clearly are are vulnerable. Um, I think a good example of that in leadership is Amy Sample Wards. You know that I’m actually I’m getting a little teary eyed just thinking about it, because she’s tearful in the video that she made you confined in it and 10 dot org’s and go to the fall of the 20 NTC Conference links. You’ll see the cancellation video that where she announced the cancellation and, uh, was made even made, and 10 and 10 vulnerable by saying this is 62%. This conference is 62% of our revenue, and we’re not only losing the revenue from the from the registrations, but we have incurred enormous penalties for the broken contracts with food vendors and signed vendors and all kinds of So she was not only vulnerable on a personal level, but on her organizational level two. And you know, you see her and you see in that video wiping tears at least once, maybe twice. Um, I just thought that that was a great example of what it occurred to me when you said the word vulnerable. I absolutely want that video there

[00:06:04.70] spk_3:
was There was one conference I was at. I mean, Amy is an excellent example of a vulnerable leader and a leader who comes with curiosity and and heart. I remember there was one conference where you could actually get a button that said I made a me cry because she wants to hear your story and she’s there with you in such a re away. So it’s an excellent example. Tony

[00:06:12.47] spk_2:
that arose out at a conference.

[00:06:16.52] spk_3:
They were buttons for your bling. You know, there

[00:06:18.98] spk_4:
was a button there that said I made a me crow. Okay, what do you want

[00:06:22.85] spk_0:
to add? Please, Tonto. But, um um, vulnerability is like a key competency for leaders. It makesem humane. It creates a bridge of trust it says, I’m in this with you. Um, it’s where leaders have an opportunity to really dig deep when it comes to emotional intelligence, which so many studies have been shown to demonstrate that leaders who have strong Q our leaders who are far more productive on all kinds of levels, generating revenue, bringing teams together, creating wonderful

[00:07:00.12] spk_6:
cultures. Um, but vulnerability could be a little scary. It’s scary if you are not vulnerable personally and

[00:07:07.64] spk_0:
your personal relationships. It’s hard to do that at work, you know, because there’s so much we we cover up, and essentially, what we’re covering up is our heart. But that’s the very thing we want. Thio sort of open up

[00:07:19.29] spk_6:
a bit and connect with others, but we all have it. We all have a heart, and we’re all looking for an opportunity to connect. And it’s a powerful tool

[00:07:27.93] spk_0:
being able to lead with heart when you can do that. So

[00:07:32.07] spk_6:
this is a situation that certainly calls for it right now because we’re vulnerable on so many levels of safety and health and well being.

[00:07:41.42] spk_0:
And we were thinking about our families, our communities, our neighbors, our workplaces. So

[00:07:47.69] spk_6:
whether we want to be vulnerable

[00:07:49.32] spk_0:
were at least inching toward that space. Whether we want to or not. You know, I think

[00:07:55.42] spk_2:
there’s so much thinking that, uh, misplaced that that showing vulnerability is a sign of weakness.

[00:08:03.32] spk_4:
I think it’s just the opposite. I think

[00:08:05.78] spk_2:
someone who’s vulnerable is is showing, exuding confidence and strength, actually, that they can open themselves up that way. I

[00:08:13.80] spk_4:
think it’s

[00:08:16.13] spk_2:
a sign of enormous. It’s confidence and strength. Yeah, yeah,

[00:08:18.08] spk_6:
you’re right, you’re right. And as a leader, I have had my best

[00:08:57.72] spk_0:
relationships with leaders who have been vulnerable with me, and when that has happened, I give them my very best. I give them so much more than I would, a leader who really is just trying to just tap whatever you know, not tapping my full self. And so as a leader, I’ve I’ve aimed to do that to, to really bring my full self in my vulnerability and the sense of trust, which is one of things we’re gonna talk about trust being a real bedrock in all of this trust and vulnerability. When you’re in a situation of disruption, so it changes, it changes us. It changes the people around us. It

[00:09:01.33] spk_6:
can actually change the whole vibe in a room. As a facilitator, I’ve seen it happen. I call it sort of dropping the water line when somebody is vulnerable and they drop that water line, you can feel

[00:09:14.33] spk_0:
the shift inside the room and it’s palpable. So

[00:09:17.25] spk_6:
it’s a powerful tool.

[00:09:18.24] spk_0:
And I Catherine, I would just invite leaders to go there.

[00:09:21.59] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah, and it breeds vulnerability. If you can bring your whole self as a leader, it allows your team to bring their whole cells, and it generates an incredible amount of loyalty and willingness to go above and beyond.

[00:10:34.05] spk_2:
Yeah, I’m going to recommend someone to you and and a book that I just I interviewed him and I do so many shows. I can’t remember if if this show has gone live yet, but his name is Jamie Bursts, but it’s spelt like hearse with a B. So Jamie B E A R S e. He’s the CEO of zero, the end of prostate cancer on they have an organizational culture there, Which is which is what his, um Oh, you know, I don’t He hasn’t written a book on this. It’s just No, I’m sorry. I interview a lot of authors to. He hasn’t written a book on organizational culture, but the culture that he’s created at at zero, which is a pretty large organization, 25 or 30 employees or something like that is exactly in line with what you’re describing. You’ll you’ll be interested in. I regrettably, the only resource I know where he talked about organizational culture is my show, so but I’m

[00:10:46.25] spk_4:
not trying to get more people. Listen t o. And he has,

[00:11:19.64] spk_2:
um, they show up with, um hh bedrocks of the culture. HHS Um, humility, Is it humility? Hunger? Yes. Not honestly. They’re honest people, but it’s humility, hunger, and I can’t run with the esses. I don’t want to miss quarter, but HHS bedrock of And they have some medical, um, vulnerability in trust so that they

[00:11:20.16] spk_4:
trust each

[00:11:56.74] spk_2:
other to be vulnerable. They open up their meetings with they spend five minutes going around the room, putting a spotlight on someone else who exhibited either HHS. This humiliation is ability, hunger and smarts, man. Shoot. But you put the spotlight on someone else, you go following someone else. Um, thinking like, um silence is dissent. When the leader says, When the leader, whoever’s leaving that meeting says, you know, are we ready to go on? Everyone has to affirmatively Yes, yes, and one who’s quiet then that’s assumed to be descent. And they’re asked, Are you ready? Or do you have an objection? You know, So they want everyone affirmatively agreeing to move to the next topic or think or things like that. I think that. Anyway, um, we’re here to learn from you, but you’ll be in

[00:12:17.91] spk_0:
No, that’s good. That’s a great story. Is the

[00:12:33.39] spk_2:
culture at zero? Um, and a lot of what you’re saying is reminding me about my conversation with Jamie Bursts. Um what about What about trust? Lorraine? You want you want some more about that film?

[00:14:34.14] spk_0:
Yes, absolutely. So trust is the bedrock of all teams. And if if you’ve read anything around the five dysfunctions of a team, um, Lindsey Onis book, he talks about trust. Everybody has a different lens of trust, but he sort of focus is on for the purpose of shared language. He focuses on trust being in the areas of reliability, acceptance, openness, sinking crew. It’s, um so trust is a key thing of being able to create that within teens and being able to talk about what’s my islands of trust? Is it that you that you are reliable, You deliver what you say you’re gonna deliver? You set up regular zoom meetings In this disruption, you make yourself accessible. Somebody else may have the lens of trust around acceptance. You know, you’re accepting me in this disruption in this pandemic. You’re accepting my circumstances of home at home and all it is that I need to juggle kids, elder care, all those kinds of things. So everybody has a different lens, but it all sort of bedrocks under trust. And we all have people in our lives who we can kind of sort of think about when we think of the word trust who naturally comes to mind when we’re in workshop. Catherine and I typically will say, Close your eyes and think of somebody who you when we say trust somebody who comes to mind in it and it could be a leader could be a family member could be a friend, but almost undoubtedly acceptance, reliability, openness, not so much congruence. Tuscan grew. It’s really kind of wraps up all three, but those usually come to mind, and then we really just have a conversation about how do you build trust? How is trust? Quickly broken. Um, you know, are you somebody who trust people initially, when you meet them, where or do you have them earn trust? You know, So it’s a really good conversation, um, around how to do that during this time. So part of building trust for teens right now would be, you know, create a

[00:14:42.69] spk_6:
having a conversation

[00:15:26.34] spk_0:
about what do you need? What is it that you need? Um, how can I support you? Those air all embedded in trust? Um, one of things I often say is, what should I stop doing? Start doing, continue doing, um, it’s leaning in and saying, You know, I want a trusting relationship here, And how do we build that? Because trust is something you built. It’s like it’s like any investment. The more you invest in put trust moments, trust exchanges, sort of in the trust kit or whatever the more you can tap it. And if I’ve got a long term relationship with Katherine of 20 years, and she does one thing that appears to break trust. I’m gonna continue that relationship because she has such a deeper investment with me versus somebody new who really hasn’t taken the time to invest. So

[00:15:36.52] spk_6:
this is a time for

[00:15:40.78] spk_0:
teams to really build trust and, um, create that foundation and be reliable as much as you can in being accessible during this pandemic and being available, answering questions, creating connection, being accepting of people, circumstances at home, A lot of those kinds of things.

[00:16:02.59] spk_2:
And, of course, all this that we’re saying applies in leadership generally and generally. Certainly we’re in the midst of this spandex, like, makes sense to grounded in our current reality, but it applies way beyond absolutely this situation. Katherine earlier you talked about you mentioned. Listen with compassion. Could you flush that out, please? I love that.

[00:16:17.51] spk_3:
Yeah, I would. I would. I would love to do if you will allow us a little role. Play with Lorraine around the levels of Listen,

[00:16:26.60] spk_4:
you have You obviously have something planned. How could I Way

[00:17:44.88] spk_3:
would love to do this. There’s ah, with some acknowledgement you can have here. There are three levels of listening and the first level. I like to say it’s all about me. That’s when I’m listening to you and I’m busy understanding its impact on me. Whatever you’re saying, the second level of listening, It’s all about you. I’m listening to understand the impact and the, uh, inference and the effect of what you’re saying on the story you’re telling has on you. The third level is called Global Listening, and it’s when we’re cut it. It’s beyond you and me. And it’s the kind of listening that ah comedian has to do to read the audience. There’s a sense of the energy in the room. It’s like beyond the human individual. So Lorraine and I was one of the things to keep in mind is, you know, people want to give a bad rap to level one listening, but it’s a really important thing. If you’re giving me an assignment, I need to be thinking, Can I do it? Do I have the time? What is my capacity? I have to be thinking about its impact on me specifically, But if you are telling me something that’s important to you and you’re expressing a piece of yourself, I need to be listening in level two listening. I need to make sure I’m focused on you and the impact that what you’re saying in your storytelling has. And that’s where the listening with compassion comes through on Lorraine. And I would like to do a little role play where we show you what it feels like to listen at level one and then tow. Listen it level two.

[00:18:03.98] spk_2:
Absolutely. Katherine can just make a suggestion. Move your move, Your mouthpiece? A little. A little below. Just a little. Blow him out. Yeah, that’s good. OK, is some of the some of the constants we say, like, uh, you know, and it breaks up just a little bit. I think it’ll heal less. You’ll aspirated less air it right into the right into the microphone. But But we can still we can still hear you. Okay. Please.

[00:18:27.64] spk_3:
Okay. So Lorraine is gonna tell me a story. What do you want to tell? And I’ll start with level one listening when it’s all about me. What she’s saying,

[00:18:37.25] spk_6:
Katherine, guess what? Last year, I want a fabulous trip to Israel. It was something I’ve been wanting to do for so long. Less June and It was incredible.

[00:18:47.86] spk_3:
Meal is always fascinated. May it’s hot. I’m so jealous that you could go.

[00:18:54.32] spk_6:
Yeah, Yeah. I went with a group from my church, and it was an amazing experience and did this whole holy tour. And there were all these other church proves

[00:19:04.26] spk_4:
there that would

[00:19:05.40] spk_3:
have been so cool if I had been there because, you know, that means so much to me to to be part of community like that.

[00:19:13.45] spk_6:
Yeah, I felt like I was in community, Katherine. And you know, so many historical sides and, uh, the upper room And, you know, going to the temples and asana was it was incredible to see

[00:19:28.90] spk_4:
you don’t even know what

[00:19:29.66] spk_3:
half of those things are that you’re talking about.

[00:19:32.66] spk_2:
Okay, We get

[00:19:33.59] spk_4:
way, we’re gonna fly with Catherine. That was

[00:19:37.50] spk_2:
good. You know what you tried? You tried thio. Turn it. I wish I could have been part of that community, like, you know, like using the word community makes you a better listener.

[00:19:48.13] spk_4:
You know, said community. You know, I said hard. You know what e? I said the words. So I guess I’m a level to this here. I

[00:19:58.00] spk_2:
like that. there’s a little twist.

[00:19:59.16] spk_4:
I wish I could have

[00:20:03.08] spk_2:
been part of your new didn’t say your community. Okay, I’m sorry. Okay, We got it. Go ahead, please.

[00:20:06.33] spk_3:
So Lorraine’s going to start the story again, and I’ll give level two listening.

[00:20:09.55] spk_6:
Okay. Katherine, last year I went on this fabulous trip to Israel, and it was amazing last June, and it was on my bucket list, something I had wanted to do,

[00:20:18.65] spk_0:
and it really wasjust quite a spiritual experience for me.

[00:20:23.42] spk_3:
Well, I can I could just see what it meant to you in your face. You light up when you talk about it.

[00:20:29.24] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. I saw holy sites that I had read about for years. And just to be in these places, garden of Vicinity and all these specials places was pretty incredible. Being in better ham and a shepherd’s field. It was

[00:20:47.04] spk_4:
it was quite

[00:20:47.54] spk_6:
touching. At times. I just I had to pinch

[00:20:50.07] spk_0:
myself and realized Am I really here?

[00:20:52.72] spk_3:
Absolutely. I can hear how it enriched you. Just in your voice.

[00:20:57.31] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for showing interest,

[00:21:00.04] spk_0:
Katherine. I really appreciate that. Just your you’re leaning in just makes me almost relive the experience again. So that’s great.

[00:21:08.90] spk_3:

[00:21:09.74] spk_2:
excellent. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:16.02] spk_4:
Short little example. Interest is clear. Yeah, sometimes say that

[00:21:16.89] spk_2:
to people, you know, I can tell. I can tell how your voice, you know, I was that I could

[00:21:21.12] spk_4:
tell in your voice, or I could see how your face

[00:21:23.19] spk_2:
lights up when I’m having lunch with someone.

[00:21:25.09] spk_4:
I can tell how you’re how animated you get. Well, yeah, we’re bored with the other

[00:21:55.48] spk_2:
percent of our conversation, but because I tend to do that, I put a lot of people off. That’s why I e if I don’t do it virtual, you know, And a lot of times I don’t even do the video. No, but no. But you can see animation. You can see people’s eyes light up our arms start to move their hand. You know, you can see Ah, smile. Come in their face. Absolutely. It’s There are things we talk about that brighten us instantly. And yeah, that’s being

[00:22:01.31] spk_4:
the good skills

[00:22:10.39] spk_2:
being very graphic. Just perfect to recognize. Okay. You want to take us to a level. Did you

[00:22:14.20] spk_4:
know I’m not tonight? Were you three? But I do want t about I do stand

[00:22:23.68] spk_2:
up comedy. I’ll tell you about little when that really sucks when nobody’s laughing at your jokes. Um, actually, it doesn’t happen too often, but, uh, you get a sense of a room because you use that example of of a state of comic leading the room. Um, you know, when it’s not going well, um, you know, when a certain type of joke didn’t doesn’t do well, don’t do more of those, you know, Don’t try to push it. Maybe just that one. I’ll try another one, just like it Now, you know, time to move on, tell a story about seventh grade. You know, Tele Tele vulnerability story or something. And no. Yeah,

[00:23:06.84] spk_3:
but I want to say the reason that we talk about this and we spend time on it is because if you don’t know your options when you’re listening, you can’t use them intentionally. Right? So there are times when you need to be listening on level one, and there are times when you should be listening on level two, and we encourage you to be aware of your conversations to be sensitive to that. And this is even true in your home with your family, right?

[00:23:21.60] spk_4:
E was just

[00:23:35.44] spk_6:
gonna add. So both Katherine I our leadership coaches and when we’re coaching a client, we really need to hone into level three to level three is really looking at not just a smile, not just

[00:23:41.80] spk_0:
the energy, but it really is going in that somatic vein of where you’re really sensing. The whole body’s been sensing the energy behind a conversation, And you could

[00:23:48.40] spk_6:
sense when somebody is not saying something

[00:23:51.52] spk_0:
and when there may be shielding or whatever. But it’s deeper listening room. We as coaches have to really, really be centered and grounded in our listening because it really is full body listening to something. Intuition is a piece of you. And tradition is a big piece. You

[00:24:07.70] spk_2:
Very good. Um, all right, we still have a couple minutes left. Um, you had some tools and approaches. Who wants the

[00:24:16.37] spk_6:
mind? Catherine, If I mentioned a few things go for I had. So when I was thinking about this interview, I thought about

[00:24:22.04] spk_0:
some things, um, of the people and leaders, uh, and team members could do, and I

[00:24:30.04] spk_6:
had a few things here. Refraining, You know, here’s an opportunity

[00:24:36.74] spk_0:
to rethink how to frame this disruption, seeing it as an opportunity to recreate, to co create together and to give birth to two to some new things. So refrain ballots to leaders. Try not to overload your team with too many tasker projects, because remember there juggling their own family. Childcare, self care. They’re juggling anxiety, depression. You’re adjusting to a new normal balance. Number three. Be creative. It’s an opportunity to think out of the box something new again.

[00:25:03.31] spk_6:
This is all sort of glass is half full

[00:25:19.32] spk_0:
versus half empty kind of mindset. Fourth servant leadership, which requires just what we were just talking about listening, accepting being president, being adaptable and leading with head and heart heart being important, flexibility, flexibility with the deadline’s focus on the big picture and not bet just current deadline that that is required. So that will cause a leader us to expand our comfort zone a little bit. So they were not so tight. They like, I want that deadline and just be done right now

[00:25:35.13] spk_6:
and then. The last one is so

[00:25:50.27] spk_0:
important in a time like this, but it’s so important when there is no pandemic and it means the world to people based on my years of being a leader in organization. And that is saying thanks. Say thanks. It makes a difference. It shows you care. Um um you could never say it too often on thank the team for navigating this this new unknown, uh, territory. Thank them for the completion of a project. Thank them for just the smallest of the biggest things. And it’ll go a long way, and it will increase engagement. It will shift a culture, and it could make a big difference. So

[00:26:14.72] spk_6:
and thanks to you, tony, for yes thing.

[00:26:19.03] spk_2:
Is that the end that you had planned or Katherine Anything you want. Oh, you

[00:26:22.62] spk_3:
know, I think she summed it up beautifully. Okay, Lead with your heart and curiosity.

[00:27:04.74] spk_2:
Well, then, thanks to thanks to each of you A said, I’m glad you’re well and safe. And thank you for sharing. Thank you very, very much. Um, marine core principle of lead with heart, with great a company name. Obviously. Basic leave. Um, and Katherine Hyde’s senior director of digital engagement at Enterprise Community Partners. And thank you for being with 20 ntc non profit tech. Well, this is non profit radio. What I need to say is, thank you. Im profit. Radio coverage of 20 NTC, um, were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software, which I’m grateful for. Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us.

[00:27:18.14] spk_3:
Thank you. Turn. Thank you. My pleasure.

Nonprofit Radio for May 26, 2017: Your Grants Team, In & Out

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Diane Leonard: Your Grants Team, In & Out

Diane Leonard returns to share her wisdom on your internal and external grants teams. Who needs to be part of your inside processes and who manages your outside relationships with your funders? Diane is president of DH Leonard Consulting.




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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into proto porphyria if you brought to light the idea that you missed today’s, show your grants team in and out. Diane leonard returns to share her wisdom on your internal and external grants teams who needs to be part of your inside processes and who manages your outside relationships with your funders. Diane is president of d h leonard consulting on tony’s steak, too. Charity registration we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com what a pleasure to welcome diane leonard in the studio, this time not calling from upstate new york, she is gp c grant professional certified, and she has been a grant professional for over a decade and the president and owner of d h leonard consulting and grantwriting services, she has secured over thirty four million dollars in competitive funds for clients from all three levels of government. And private foundations. She’s, the co host of grant chat, a weekly twitter chat for grant professionals she’s at diane h leonard. And the company is at d h leonard consulting. Dot com. Welcome to the studio this time. Diane. Yeah. Thank you so much. Great to have you glad to be here now. Grantspace schnoll certified. Did the the accrediting association take my advice and change that to certify grantcraft sessional since the last time you were on, you know, i talked with the board, but we haven’t addressed that that specific matter yet. So still gpc grant professional sort of for the time being. But it’s, just the time being we’ll you know, tio r b i brought out the light. Okay, it may be on the right. It may be coming, possibly on the agenda. All right, i just sort of five grand profession. Ok, but your grandpa deshele certified for now, so we’re sort of extending our conversation from, like, the last minute of last time you were on or so way just got into your teams and we were talking about the internal team. But what? We just barely scratched it. So let’s start with your internal grants team? Why is this not just the the, uh, responsibility or might say burden, but we’re on the upbeat side, we’ll say, why is this not just the responsability of the the grant writer? Whether he or she is employee or consultant, isn’t it? Isn’t it just there? That’s what you got this person for, right? So you’re right that the grant writer, the grant professional, they are there to write grants so it sounds like it could be a solo sort of activity. But the reality is you can’t write well and competitively without information from your grantee. Mme. So whether or not you call it a grant team that’s up to you, we don’t care folks ever self identify as a member of a granting right, but finance needs to give information and vice presidents of programmes have to provide the logic models or the details, the design of what you’re going to write for. So if the grant writer was really, quote unquote, just writing the grant, would that really be what the organization wants to implement? What’s going to be in line with their strategic plan, right? We’d be writing in a silo. Okay, now. Yeah, clearly. So we’re getting information. By the way. Ricky, i see you have your d h leonard consulting shirt on. Of course, when you go home without it, which is not just like a land’s end, you know, straight button down. It’s got it’s. A blast really got it’s got ruffled down down the front. Very nice. We’re going were very fashionable. Is going to picture on facebook? Wait the mic flag out on everything. So but not just your average, you know, land’s end corporate shirt. Not anymore. By any means. Well, thank you. Very nice. Your daughter rebecca’s here, rebecca, you like this shirt? You have? You have one of these? Is that you? Have it? She doesn’t have one. You don’t have a dish that while they have special running shirts that on the back say right, period. Sleep, period. Run, period. Okay, we got those for the whole team, so ok, we’ve got a diversity of apparel. All right, so this is you putting land’s end to shame. Very good. Much, much nicer than than your average. Okay. All right, so, yeah, clearly. So we got to get information from other people. All right, so you don’t care if we call him the grants team or not, but but, you know, how do we, uh, how do we get their buy into this to the larger process? I mean, i saw the cfo gives you some numbers, you know? Is that all you really want? I mean, don’t you want we want a little more? Yeah, real engagement. So how do we start to get there by into this process that they don’t feel is their responsibility right now? Well and sometimes it’s, not that they don’t feel it’s their responsibility, it’s that perhaps based on how things have been done before, it hasn’t dawned on them that they could have a better process, a better success rate if there was a more thoughtful, proactive collaboration within the organization. So when we go into an organization and we ask the question, do you have a grant teen? According to our grasp tool, it is less than half in fact it’s closer to about thirty five percent say yes, what’s a grasp tool. So i’ve jargon jail sorry you’re right. Totally grasp tool. What is this? Grasp tool is a proprietary tool that my team and i developed that measures grantwriting nous so there’s twenty great readiness elements and one of them is about your grant team. I can not about what it’s called, but do you have that group? Okay, so based on the data assessment, esso and that’s helped us to understand that said so it’s about thirty five percent have a grant team. That means they’re so sixty five percent. No, right? So when you walk into a new organization and you talk about this idea of a grand team, sometimes the grant professional looks that you don’t kind of holds their heads like they shake their head? Nope, just me write other times the organization is ready for because they’re all non-profits air fighting for dollars, right? There’s a really good thoughts, so they’re trying to figure out how how they can increase their grantspace king success just even a little bit right? A few extra success percentage points or an extra forty fifty one hundred won one million dollars, whatever they’re trying to increase the revenue. So the idea that by taking their resource is they already have the people rearranging them a little bit differently to share for grant process so that it has a better return on investment, usually by some pretty good traction quickly. Ah, but the question is always well, what do we have, like a lot of meetings? What is it? Does it go on the organ chart? What does that mean for me? Right? And so what we look at as a grant team structurally, we recommend that it would be a group that annually plans the calendar agrees on what our priorities are for funding. Who are our funders. We’d return to that’s big picture, so once a year, you’re doing that together. The grant teens then looked different for each application, sometimes depending on the size of an organization. So that’s, where we can really start to improve the process, reduce the stress and increase the likelihood for the funding for the yes. All right, i like the idea of getting some early successes, like, maybe there’s, some low hanging fruit that the team can rally around a success on early success of and from from i guess i should say from yeah, the award letters went to start a grant team idea that first award letter solidifies the process for sure, long term, yes, every reason to think. All right, all right, let’s, go for a break, and diane and i are going to continue talking about your grants team in and out. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy. Fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Diane. When i introduced you, i i used the bio that was back from last time. You were on in in january and said you had raised thirty four million dollars among lots of organization. Is that still an accurate number? Got any higher than that now? Since we last spoke, it is close to thirty six million. Six gets getting close, but it was never that fluctuates all the time. Million dollars difference. Alright, well, it always fluctuates up. I mean, you never having grantspace clawed back or no, no, you’re way kruckel excellent. There. So bios added eight. Thirty six, nine dollars. All right. And also you mentioned your team and your team goes in now the only team member i know you have his rebecca who’s here. Rebecca’s. How old? Rebecca’s? Eleven. Eleven eyes. Rebecca party your team or the whole families apart of the team for me. Okay. Last shirt. Every everybody wears this. Sure. Everybody gives me coffee. You’re ten number. You’re giving out shirts on the corner. Your team, your team member. Okay, now you have grants other grand professionals. We do. Have other grantcraft specials and and use your your provide. It was a group. No grass grasp, not growth. That’s a scratch. Okay, group. Okay, um it could be grantmaker be gropes if you get a no in coming close to you know what groups lose. Stick with craps. You could you it’s actually an acronym. So krauz looks great, it’s. Good, but let’s like see gp gp. Alright, i will take it under advisement. Tp gp is my recommendation. Okay, um, all right now you say fund-raising not a solo sport, basically. No. Yeah, not fund-raising not in grants, right? We cannot be silent, right? All right. Let’s, let’s talk about some other people who should be involved. We mentioned cfo. We might come back to him or her. Who else needs to be active? Actively helping this process. And they were going to get into how they’re actively helping. But yes. So so, depending on the size of the organization, often we will see the president or the ceo be a part of the annual the big picture granton process, right? Not individual applications, necessarily. But that big picture annual plan a plan which you and i talked. About last time, yeah, listeners could go back and could search tony martignetti dot com and your grants flan or diane leonard, you’ll see the all the times that she’s been on. Well, this’s second, eso you only looking for one other, but, yes, we talked about the grants plan, right? Last time you were on. All right, so the ceo certainly could be involved, right? Absolutely. And so having, though, whether it’s, a vice president of programs or other program leadership that are focused on the actual implementation and service delivery, having them have a voice at the table be an active participant in that big grantee mme annually and on those individual applications that so a voice that carries a lot of weight in the grant team because they’re driving what the applications contain. Yeah, all right. Let’s, let’s, talk about the the talk about the program’s staff for the program that you’re attempting to get funding for correct people carrying out those programs. All right, so what are they bringing in that people who are not taking advantage of this are missing? Sure. So the program’s staff, sometimes they’ll be like, oh, i already have a logic. Model for that program and there that make grantwriting jump up and down for joy if you don’t have to write a logic model, right? Um, they might already have a great activity work plan for what? That looks like implementation wise over the next year or oh. Yep, absolutely. I know those collaborative partners. I can help you get the letters of support, and so they make the asked for the letter? Not necessarily you. They know their clients that they’re serving better than anyone so they can help decide. Okay, we’ve got a limited character count. What are the best demographic stats that we should talk about, or what are the barriers in that limited space? That cheese? We’ve got a long list of barriers out of the dozen. Here are the two that we really should talk about. They can help you narrow that down. So that then we is the grant writer. The grant professional can tell the story in a stronger way. Okay. You mentioned the logic model. Of course. We all know the logic model what’s a logic model. So ah, logic model is a well, i guess i shouldn’t use the word logic. Again is a thoughtful way that you can demonstrate visually your program designed so you start with your inputs from way clients flow through your program. Great. Yeah, i usually think about it, like a conveyor belt is the way that i described it. So you take your got three metaphors going dellaccio logical flow. We’ve got a conveyor belt. What else durney uses their shoot is their trash. You what else? All of those could sure alright, you sick with your comfort the conveyor belt. So because the what happens is that grantmaker zey have a wide variety of logic model forms that they use. So having a logic model in your head that only looks like one thing as a design is really tricky because you’ll united way. We’ll have a different one than a federal government agencies. So that’s why you need to have a general understanding of logic models and how you use them in program design. Right? So if you think about that conveyor belt idea, you take cubine puts your clients your staff. Your resource is set him on the conveyor belt and they has the conveyor belt starts. It moves through, i think. Of ah box, where all the magic happens, but they had very about moving the conveyor belt. Rebecca you’re following this is conveyor belt moving into a box doesn’t make sense for you, because if you could explain this to an eight year old and then i can get it, i can grasp all right, so so far so the conveyor belt and actually you’ve seen the movie like toy story or something. Where there’s all these flames shooting out of the box, but that’s where the activities air happening, the magic. So where you’re delivering counseling services or hiv prevention education or after school tutoring, right, whatever those services those activities are, and as the box of the inputs comes out, the end of the shiny box you can count on is coming on their belt conveyor belt. Most don’t mess up our metaphor. Alright, the conveyors coming out of the box. And you, khun now count how many people you served? How many after school sessions were held? Hominy caregiver education workshops whatever the case may be, but you can count them. You get your outputs and you can at that same time so well or my short. Term outcomes, right? And then a little bit further is the conveyor belt moves well or my intermediate outcomes. What were my long term outcomes at the very end of my conveyor belt? Maybe as far as i can see towards the horizon, right? Well, knowing all that detail is really tough for a grant professional to know about a program that they’re not implementing, right? So filling in i under you can understand the concept that detail that’s where those program staff members are critical. Okay, makes sense. Yes. There you go. You’re with me. Ok, thumbs up. Okay, i understand it. Yes. Now, um, what about the value of their value in? We’re digressing a little bit from the team concept, but but stories, i’m certainly program staff, the ones working with your clients, they’re going to have lots of stories, is they’re valuing in telling a story and individual persons story in a grant? Or is that really not such a good practice? It really depends on the specific type of application. And so part of deciding whether or not it’s important is looking at what the funders application looks like in their preferences, but the what? Is the level of detail. What is the emotion behind the story that a program staff member can share with you, it’s? Not just a one quick sentence. A little success story, but what can they really help build? So, in a federal application? Actually, there was just a great use of a story and that’s, not a place. You always see it. But we had a client that was able to articulate what it would be like for a rural, low income student that was entering middle school that had all these barriers to overcome and quickly in a paragraph walk you through what that student was experiencing. So you felt like this young girl or you felt like this young boy. And so as you got into the heavy meat of this application, your thoughts as the reviewer really grounded in what it was like, is that student right? So used carefully good, vivid storyteller. It can really draw that reviewer in as a grant writer is a great professional. What? I know enough of those details about what those clients are experiencing to tell that sort of story. It be tough. You would not know. Yeah. Okay. Um, now, i would think you mentioned federal grants. I would think that’s a pretty daunting looking package, does it? I mean, just the i don’t make you’ve done scores are hundreds of them, but i just think that it just looks imposing and threatening. Yeah, all of the federal grants federal grant application they are, but sometimes they’re short narratives. Other times, you know, like we’re working on now. One that’s, a thirty page single space that’s, some hefty writing. But, you know, with the right grantee mme it’s completely manageable, you don’t have to work crazy long hours. You don’t have to work all weekend. You don’t have to know out to your family for days, it’s some of those really big ones that don’t that are daunting to people as soon as they do it. The first time in the grant teamviewer sis their old way, they’re sold forever yeah, okay, i’m dying to get to the outside relationship with the funders, but we’re not there yet, so we gotta be going metoo stopping up on the inside because the whole relationship thing it’s excellent. We’re getting to it, we’re getting to it. Um all right, i guess that’s that’s pretty much exhaustion in the program. What the program people are bringing to you and the wisdom they have the on the ground boots on the ground experience that they’ve got that nobody else really has on. Certainly not the grand team or grant writer. Right. Okay, bring them in the europe program professionals. Um, who else? Cfo do we do we we, uh i asked you, who else? And then i tell you, yeah, that’s just the way the show goes and i run it. Cfo, do we beat that up? Is there enough that i mean numbers? What? But an application may ask for more than that if you’re what’s the state of your financial controls, right? And things like that? Well and so usually where cfo’s or the finance staff are involved, like, yeah, i fell out the budget or i review and i approve the budget. But when that happens, we find that if you’re not having conversations early on about how the budget numbers what’s the justification behind those, how does that relate to the design that we’re proposing? They end up being incongruent, we find inconsistencies then between what? The budget? Tells us a story on what the narrative tells us the story so there’s a little bit of ah, that you have to work together to really tell airtight story. So you’re consistent, and that s o there’s like chicken and egg conundrum in terms of the team and who goes first? Okay, once you have the input of both, who then whose responsibility is it, then? Teo, scrutinize this story and make sure that the numbers are in line with what the program people told us, right and that’s where the grand professional internal consistency okay to be like? Okay, all right, i hear which you’re saying this is what the staffing costs, but hold on, we’ve exceeded the allowable salary percentage of the total project budget by funder standards or, hey, it says that you can’t spend more than seven percent on evaluation, and your budget currently tells us eight point five. Well, eight point five percent of the total product budget is what it costs to do the designed evaluation. Okay, now we need to work together. Right? So those things come up and that’s where the grant professional starts to work on alignment between the two. Parties, the financial constraints and the program designed what is the best for the organization. Okay, cool. You give us a sense of how this team works together if we don’t call it a team. Um all right. Who else? Ah, who else needs to be involved if if we have them on our staff data evaluation? What? Anybody in interest? No one. That attention. Tio counting the client outputs, tracking success, tracking satisfaction. And that looks so different by title. An organization that it’s hard to say. You know, not everybody has a director of evaluation. Many, many don’t treyz but someone in the organization is responsible for those client databases for the education session. Workshop reviews rightto surveys somebody’s responsible. So who are they? Whoever they are, whatever title it is, they should be on the team because that data is critical for analyzing as you think about your next application. Did you think about your next application? Write what happened? What happened about this application we’re working on now for the applicator. If we have an application in front of us now, i want to be looking at well, what did you learn last time? What is? The data show so that our projected outputs are anticipated. Outcomes are in alignment with what we’ve been able to achieve before. Okay, so i need the staff person that was doing the data the last time the program ran, or for a similar pilot program, or whatever it is. We need them there with their data, knowledge, teau, help us run some numbers, is and figure it out together. What do we do for organizations that aren’t currently evaluating? Not measuring these important outcomes impact what do we do for them? So i usually will send them is their first bit of homework straight to the wk kellogg foundation. They’ve gotten evaluation handup book that’s on their website for free and it’s. Fabulous and it’s. A great way for groups to begin to think about what evaluation could look like for them. Okay. Do you ever refer a book now? That might be too daunting because we had a we had dr robert penn on he’s. Been on a few times, but the first time he was on and it was years ago. But he has an excellent book that people have quoted to me before. Called the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Yeah. That’s a good one. You know what? Yeah. Oh, you know. Okay, you just don’t assigned as homework to a client because they’ll say, what you giving me his two hundred fifty page book? I thought we were hiring you for the expertise. Why, yes. Feels good to be the book now. Yeah, but it’s got chapters on different methods of it’s a toolbox, different methodology for measuring impact and he’s. Very hey wants to call it. Impact, not outcomes. Some people aren’t too scrupulous about that. But anyway, measuring the good that you’re doing in your beneficiaries lives or whatever it is in the environmental, whatever. Because by chapter, a lot of different tools. Yeah. Okay. So you know that one? Yeah, s o the other thing we do is that depending on where they are, we have a lot of folks that we know that our great professionals and evaluators in their background and so will try to pair them with someone that could maybe walk them through some initial support or give them some ideas. Right? So that they can look at what’s happening. What could they do? What’s feasible for them? For evaluation? Alright, alright, but a good resource. Wk kellogg foundation. It’s a great one. Yep. If you search kellog foundation evaluation handbook it’s small it doesn’t feel daunting in that sense. Tto learn a little bit and think about logic models and what you could measure. Okay, now what do we do? Ah, it’s all that hypothetical. We’ve got a grant application in front of us that asks for measurements and we don’t have any. Should we not be doing this? Application we should really be asking ourselves, can we be competitive, right? We need to think we want the money, we need the money to do a good work, right? And so that measurement question if we don’t have a good answer, really that’s going to be a concern when they’re reviewing it when a grantmaker their board is reviewing it, you’re going to lose some significant either theoretical or real points. And so, as your stacking up against the other applications, it’ll be hard to get that yes, no, are there still applications out there where the the impact measurements are not asked for or there they’re not a priority? Maybe you can tell their apartment, i mean, is that is that still exist? Not all grantmaker sze will formally ask for it sometimes because they let you provide a letter of request of your own design. And so what happens is that if a group doesn’t have measurement is part of what they talk about all the time, it won’t naturally be what they think to put in their general letter, but for other groups that do think to talk about it, they’re going to stand out, right? So they’ll be more competitive in those general formats, but when you’re in all those online applications, the cyber grants, the found ints that grantmaker sze use most of those online zsystems you’re finding questions about measurement worded in a lot of different ways, but the vast majority have questions. Fountains. What is that found? Found in’t it’s on online grant application system like cyber grant. So it’s there’s a common core it’s, a common system that lots of funders use. They are? Yep. So there it’s. Not a specific common application. It’s a common online system. So the funder gets to customize their form using those companies. Oh, i see. All right, it’s. Just okay. Okay. Um all right, let’s. See, we got a couple more minutes before we go out for our midterm break, if you will. What? What are the professionals? We’d be bringing in that we haven’t talked about yet. So in some groups we see human resource is have a seat at the table for the grant team. You know what they contribute? Well, because like, fifteen years ago, they call personnel. Now it now all of a sudden they’re hr human resources. What? What? Is the personnel team the hr team bring so when you look at organizations that are heavily grant funded and they start to ask themselves, well, what percentage of staff are currently funded? Is anybody overfunded, right? Those conversations are riel. They happened when you’ve got organizations that are heavily grant funded and with designated grants. So, for example, we worked with an organization that had two wonderful adult day programs for those with dementia, great programs, and happened to be that the state that they were based in had a great amount of money for them, as did the county governments. And so they ran on different timelines and had to be very careful. Oh, and and by the way, there was black grandfather thing too. So they had all these sources that had to list excruciating detail about which staff for what percentage of fto eat keeping track of that. And what was happening with payroll in hr was an important part of the planning process. So it’s not always that they have to be at the table, but first, some programs for some organizations, you’d be sunk without him. Anybody else you want to bring in? Well, let’s see, we’ve done evaluation, we’ve done cfo, we’ve done program leadership data it and tech khun b a great need to know who to call, right? Because when you’re doing a big grant, you’re like, okay, we’re going out for the computer lab. I shouldn’t be the one out on google looking for computers to figure out what works because it might not get the network. So you’ve gotta have some of those players that you get to call the call the bat if there’s a technology component to your grant, right, it might not be the main purpose of it, but if there’s the technology funding needed, what are we going toe? How are we going, phil? So you fill our need? Yeah, we’ve got sort of like a designated hitter list, right? When the application calls for it, we’ve gotta have folks that know that they’re going to be on deck to help us. Not all the time in the grand team, occasionally, based on the application, okay, let’s not go too far with sportscenter. That was that when you just mentioned on deck that’s basketball, right? If you’re on deck, you’re coming in next, based at the buzzer softball, that’s a baseball right let’s not go to any further with no more sports metaphors on non-profit radio. All right, so where we at? Alright, hang loose while i do a little business, please, and then diane and i are coming back and we’re going to talk about the external team who is managing. I should say the team that manages that those external relationships with funders and your community so that is coming up first. Pursuant the archive of their webinar how to win at data driven fund-raising fund-raising fund-raising data driven fund-raising is up. It answers questions like what should we measure? That sounds from there. I think we’re having this little chat. And how do we make our dated? Actionable. You know, if data is a conundrum for you, as in the hypothetical little diane and i were just talking about or you just want to be savvy or about you like you may be. You feel you have too much data. What do you do with it? Well, how do you shift it out? That’s what this webinar is designed to help you with will help you with get control over your metrics. It again is called howto win at data driven fund-raising it’s at pursuing dot com you click resource is then webinars. We’ll be spelling spelling bees for millennial fund-raising this is a fun night out of spelling bee live music, standup comedy, dancing and making money for your organization. I need to raise more money. This could be the way you want to engage millennials in your good work. This could be the way. Check out the video at we be e spelling dot com now for tony’s take two. Cue the wagging finger have you got your charity registration? Have you got that off your to do list yet? In other words, are you properly registered in each state where you solicit donations, including grants? I can help you. Charity registration it’s part of my practice. I’ve mentioned it before that’s. Why his fingers wagging. I can get this done for you. Check the video at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony. Take two and i am with diane lettered and she is with me and her daughter. Rebecca is here also. Diane leonard gpc. The company is d h leonard consulting at d h landed consulting. Dot com and you’ll find diane on twitter at diane h leonard and i’m very glad again that she’s in the studio thanks for coming down where your upstate new york i forget where the rochester area no far, far, far upstate, eight thousand island or you’re all the way up your republic by the canadian border you you’re on a body of water too aren’t you would write on the st lawrence river lorts river that’s okay, alright knew it wasn’t on the great lakes. Okay, ron, we’re part of the great lakes system right at the end of lake ontario. Okay. And what is the town that you’re coming from? Clayton clayton, new york? Yes. How cold is it up in clinton now on ly a few degrees colder now. Oh, yeah, right. Because, well, we’re actually doing this in late april, and the temperature dropped, like fifty degrees or something. Doing yeah. Yeah, but the snow’s all melted. Okay, a lot this year. A fair amount of all right. Um, all right. We’re making the transition now we’re going to managing our relationships externally. Let’s start with the funders. But we also want talk about the community. Um, you have ah, you have a whole story about talking somebody recently, who’s who’s very dismayed about getting calls two days before deadlines. It’s true. So in my background, i have it was a grantmaker so i have my own set of skepticism about how people treat grantmaker xero programs program officer, right? It was it was a program officer for a statewide foundation, but it’s been a long time now and so but that background is part of why i was get on the relationship soap box, and i was sitting with the assistant director for the northern new york community foundation, and he and i were talking cause actually he’s writing a guest blogged for us for our firm, and so we were talking about it and said, it just it baffles me goes, i just was getting it yet another call we’ve got a deadline coming up on friday is the conversations having this like, and so they’re calling me, like, two, three days before, okay, so what do i want to put in an application? Well, okay, so luckily had a few minutes to talk, but what sort of application and conversation we’re going to? Have in two days, right? And he said, so there’s just non-profits are out there doing good work, and their website encourages conversation, right car does. What does it say? Call us. It says, please contact us and it’s got their phone number and it’s got their emails. I mean, it’s got to contact us for a minute, i think teo so they’re very open. They don’t demanded they don’t make it a requirement. We know some thunders. Do they say you must call us before so it’s an open invitation and yet still and maybe it’s because they’re caught up because they’re doing really important, truly important things in the community, right? All these groups are resources are limited and so it’s like oops, that deadline’s coming up. I should call them. And so he and i were talking about it again. And just what do you do? How much do you say? Do you make it mandatory? But his point was that it when you make that call last minute and he’s got a quote on the block post actually, about how you feel like an a t m is a grantmaker it feels very transactional like, okay. I need some funds ready versus having it be a true relationship, a partnership in making grants to create impact in the community. And so what we were talking about was the value of what he’s calling the next level gratitude so there’s like the quick phone call before to talk, but then once you get the grant or even if you didn’t, but you’re still trying to maintain a relationship to apply again later, where and how can you have contact that’s appropriate for that specific funder to keep the dialogue going? So, yeah, super excited that max was willing to write the post for us, but it’s not an uncommon story. We hear it from other funders when the program officer we all used to talk about that over lunch when we’d get together, right? Funders talk part of your grantspace lan include contact with the funders that are in your plan. What, i don’t know, two months in advance or how much, but but should that be part of, you know, make initial contact with this funder that we’re going to be approaching in two to three months? Absolutely so when we talk about that when we go back to that grants plan in the grants calendar. Usually when folks have a grantspace alan durney calendar that’s a little upstate. You upstate, you know durney from upstate. I’m from buffalo originally, anyway, so, yeah, i can’t help it. Okay, you don’t have to. I’ll just call you out. Okay? Thank you. So the i can now conscious of self conscious. Okay, so that thing that device that you use clique has basil data dahna be outlook based. Yeah, nothing has deadlines on it is what folks will normally have. Right? Right. Ok, maybe some reports for those current funders. Hey, what about putting relationships on the counter? Right? It’s a critical piece. Now, this we’ve gotta, like, have a huge ass trick. I’m making one in the air. All right? Not all grantmaker is allow communication pre award. They have no capacity or no preference for it. Okay, so we’ve open that up and we have to address the elephant in the room. Not all grantmaker sze will talk to you because they don’t have enough time or they have too many proposals and too many contacts that even with a dozen staff right, they couldn’t handle it so all right, we agree on that, right? Okay, but you know, you’re gonna know because you’re researching this funder because you wouldn’t have put them in your plan if you didn’t know anything about them. Wayward certainly wouldn’t do that approach. The gates foundation? Yeah, great. All right, so we’re going to know we’re going, we’re going to know. So we’ve learned through our research whether or not we can even talk to them. If we’ve done that, like in the example of the community foundation, i would have seen the clues. The writing’s on the wall. Hey, you’ve got staff names. I’ve got phone numbers, we got e mails, they’re offering to talk. I should talk, right? I should put it out there and like you said, gosh, two months before a deadline. That’s fantastic, even a month, two days before that’s, right? Not a good idea, because now you’re also tipping your hat to the thunder that you just started thinking about it. It didn’t. That was not a good thing. I presume they wouldn’t take anonymous call. I’m calling from an organization, but i don’t really say which you know, but this is what we do they probably wouldn’t care for the call like that. Exactly. All right, all right. So you’re going? Yeah, you’re typically exactly you’re revealing that you’re not organized and you’re thinking about this two business days in advance, right? All right. That’s bad. All right, who? Wei don’t have a grantspace sessional let’s, say small and midsize non-profits may not have a grand professional on staff who initiates this call, and we don’t have the benefit of d h leonard consulting helping us who’s through initiates the contact. Yeah, so the answer is that it depends right? It’s sort of a strength spaced decision who likes talking to donors who lights talking to major donors at special events, look around your organization and say, gosh, our executive director loves to talk to people about the programs and okay, so maybe that’s your answer could be that you’ve got a major gifts officer, so you don’t have a grand professional, but you’ve got a major that’s a great person to make that outreach might be that as you look around and you start to think about who’s, connect to who sort of the six degrees of kevin bacon idea, right? You’re like, oh, actually, wait it’s the program’s staff that sits on a collaborative group with the grantmaker they already know someone, they can be the point of contact, right? Backed up with talking points by the development staff by the grantmaker but so it doesn’t have to be one answer. Now the fallback can always be a development director or a grant writer if you have one on staff, sure, now i will say i have another ass trick making another footnote, yeah, go with the footnotes. This one has to be well has to be a dagger, because otherwise the footnotes would be the same. You can’t have two footnotes with asterisk that’s thiss one’s a dagger mary-jo okay, if you have an external grantcraft sessional or an external fundraiser working with you, it is my strong recommendation. They should not be the one reaching out on your behalf to build a relationship, because we can’t answer all the questions right grantmaker zeal have questions if you’re really having a good dialogue grantmaker will ask a question because you’re engaged in a dialogue, right? We’re not just talking at them or vice versa, and when that happens and the well intentioned external fundraiser or grant professional who’s like i will have to talk to my client get back to you now. I say that as an example because when i was a program officer, that happened more than once. That doesn’t bode well for the organization either, right? So, yes, you’ve got this great resource, but you need to be able to answer my questions like pick up the phone now, we gotta book a second call right now, but the questions all right? What? What if there’s reluctance? Because the the ceo or development director i love talking individuals, but now i’m talking to institution, they’re going to ask me questions i can’t answer about about accounting, and they’re going, they’re going toe. What do you have to get over that kind of nervousness about talking to the institution, the person, the person who loves talking to the person or the individual or the couple? Yeah, so we end up coaching a lot of folks that are they’re a little altum it about making that call because you’re right? It does feel different and that there’s a little bit of a power differential that doesn’t always exist with individual donors and the reality is it’s actually my colleague heather storm bug of just right solutions. You’d love her. You should have her on the show. Okay, okay. Making a plug, she’s great. But she’s got a line that is, people grant to people, not proposals xero and so the grantmaker tze and that’s what? The story is about it’s about grantmaker so grantmaker zoo are run by people and its people making the decisions right? So, yes, it seems like it’s all this big institution. But remember that it’s people trying to do good work, they have a mission aligned with yours, right? They want the same general thing thatyou d’oh. So to try and strip away some of that stress of oh, this big structures are reluctant. Okay, on dh parallel with that. Our corollary? What? I don’t visit a corollary algorithm it’s a serum i don’t know is that we do want to have a relationship with these funders like they’re people. I mean, because they are staffed by people. So i mean, this is the whole purpose of having on next team to manage that external relationship. You don’t you don’t just call ah, an individual donor on december twenty ninth because they haven’t made their end of your gift yet. You know you’re in touch throughout the year cultivating, right? So don’t do that to the institutions the institutional funders carry on a relationship because they are staffed by people, right? Yeah, you don’t want to just send in the obligatory grant report on time for the deadline. Okay, hold on. I want to put it again. Another application. Okay, i’m going to buy fifteen thousand. Right? Vicious cycle there’s. So much to do in between that we build it and what’s wrong with picking up the phone and talking to the thunder and saying, you know, we had a i mean, just like sharing anecdotes with a great week this week or, you know, this month this month we were disappointed, but here’s, what we’re doing to turn it around i mean, can you have conversations like that with with an institutional funder? You can. So it depends again on preference and capacity. So is you get to know the fun durney like, okay, they have staff. Oh, they like to talk. Oh, they only like email, right as you learn there. Preferences we worked with a small funder in central new york, not a lot of staff capacity loved promoting grantee work and success on social media, not what you’d expect, but it’s fantastic, right? So as you learn those preferences, you can think about how you’re going to share updates during the year, okay? The media team just did a great job. They’ve got a facebook post, we’re going to share that and tagged the thunder, so now they know what’s happening or i’m going to write a hand written note, right? The art of hand written notes go a long way with grantmaker just doesn’t do with individuals means it’s an individual’s going to open that envelope and read it it’s going to make their day right? I got to hand written notes from different folks that attended sessions recently that i hadn’t met. I instagrammed each of them the day they came in because i was so excited right now because you’re like as a funder who something different, then what i normally get and they’re treating me like a person. Yes, even though i’m representing an institution, i’m still a person. I’m the advocate for this organization when they submit their next application to our board. Right? Is that how it is now? Program officer works and he should get something that looks promising. They bring it to the board of the foundation. Or maybe they’re bringing up the chain. But eventually it gets to the decision makers. But the point is, the programme officer is the advocate for your application. So why not have them on your side? Exactly? It’s, exactly at in the process, you’ve gotta look at it, even in government work. While they might not be able to. Not the peer review were there, not the scoring source can have great relationships with government staff that will help your process. They’re still your advocate, but still are. And they can help you navigate the process and be stronger overall. All right, all right. I wish i i feel like the relationship building part of ah, grants is duitz egregiously overlooked mean, badly overlooked. No, i’d go with egregiously. Yes, not even just badly. Yeah. All right, all right. We gotta go out for a last break. Diane. Of course going to stay with us. And they’re never going to move from from the funder. To the community, let’s. See what you see, what that relationship is about. Hang in there. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they only levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy, tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests are there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation talk. Trans sounded right, that’s two tony martignetti non-profit radio and i am his knees. Carmela and i am his nephew, gino. Carmela and gino, now now thirteen and eleven. I think we record that last year. So their twelve and twelve and ten, uh, love that. Okay, the well, the point is, someone’s gotta manage the relationship with our funders, right? Someone’s got to get to know their preferences. They prefer social or email or phone or everybody loves the handwritten note. We agree on that, but somebody’s gotta manage this relationship right? And so someone has to be the central. You need to have one person that’s managing the relationship, but usually where the great writer, the professional right shit somebody’s going to make sure that they know what’s happening with all of them that everyone’s aware of who’s talking to who, when and where and what are you trying to accomplish? So that in case somebody’s out of a special event or at a conference that everybody’s prepared what conversations are in play? Okay? And how about in the community? You you what you want, you want communications to be good in our community, to sure and so there’s a few different ways that plays out because you don’t know in your community who knows whom? Especially in a lot of small towns, right? Everybody’s connected so that casing clayton it is there having not grown up in a small town, i’ve learned quickly incestuous. Well, i wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t have but just know it’s really it’s everybody’s looking like oh it’s. Only two degrees of connection to anywhere you want to go in northern new york is your local paper have ah, section like talks about diane’s aunt is visiting from the big city rochester and she brought along with her two kittens and you have that in your in your paper are thousand islands on which is truly just st lawrence river paper. Instead, it has a section where if you take your paper to wherever you go, when you take a picture, you get your picture in the paper so there’s pictures as you can, and we’re going over got to bring my copy to new york city. You can’t in-kind burghdoff xero of non-profit radio total are all right, but it’s not quite as closest know your aunt is visiting for the week. Not quite like that, but the point is that you just never know how close the connection could be. You’re talking. To someone in a collaborative meeting, and all of a sudden you realize that it’s, somebody who sits on the board for is on a review panel somewhere, right? You just never know where that connection’s going to play out to a grantmaker and i got news for you that’s the case in new york city to treyz things air compartmentalized so you might be part of a grants panel or or organization devoted to social services. Okay, so now we’re getting pretty narrow, ok? There are a lot of social service agencies in new york city, but maybe somebody in from one of your funders is part of it, and you don’t know it because you don’t know the bio of everybody there, you know? So that does not only the case in small and mid sized towns, new york city can be very compartmentalized. Um all right, so we want to be talking up are funded programs in these forums? Is at the point well, we want to be naturally looking for collaborations naturally looking for spot where we conduce do-it-yourself cause when you think about how the community khun play out in your grants, trat, egy and why you want to have a team that’s thinking about it and then maybe kind of reporting back to the group? It could be that we’re thinking about okay letters of support, foran application or letters of commitment, right support. We’ve got our cheerleading letters, all right? Our senators and our dignitaries funders are like, god, okay, that’s, great that’s, nice, but what they really like are those letters of commitment, the organizations that are partnering together, and they’re like, okay, this is my role, this letter says, i’m going to do x y and z, right? So having the relation in ships in place with those agencies that you would ask for a letter of commitment from those relationships aren’t usually held by the great writer. It goes back to our grant team internally, we’re talking about our program staff again, or our executive director whatever, um so it’s, a really important way that we engage community everything about community as clients who are we serving? Having testimonial letters is either required or appropriate for some grant applications. Well, again, it’s not going to the grand professional that’s usually making that ask it’s going to be the staff member. That the client trusts say, hey, are you willing to write a short paragraph for us about your experience, you know, and these letters of support and certainly the letters of commitment are not going to be coming two business days before you’re your application deadline, they take time? Yeah, way have to be developing these relationships right in advance and asking those that we have relationships with foreign advance. So you’re not running around the city you’re driving all over the county trying to collect letters no good. Plus, you got a writing dead line two and you got a midnight submission deadline and it’s a big disaster. All right, all right. Um, so does that belong on our grantspace lan mean, the attendance at these community affairs? Well, if we think about what’s on the kind of what we go back to our conversation earlier a few months ago, about with the grants plan, i don’t know it always put community interaction onto the plan, but having the team recognize what their role is, their role is applicants application specific for sure, but the things that they do in between applications, having them understand that when they’re out in the community, they’re having these interactions. Those are things that come back, that they might not know exactly which application is going to be relevant to. But they should be stockpiling that information, thinking about the relationships they hold thinking about what advisory groups they sit on or hey, you know what? Actually, this organization we partner with a lot. I think they were talking about this federal grant too cash. I should talk to them before we consider applying. What if we did something collaborative instead of both trying to apply for the same thing, right? That knowledge will naturally bubble to the surface in your internal grant’s team. If they know how and what they should be watching for externally with community we have just like a minute and a half or so before we got to wrap up. How do we how would i know this time flies right now? How do we find the right places to be going in our community? Just like in a minute? Yeah, i would say look at where you are naturally don’t force it. Look it where? There’s collaborative sze. Where there’s? A social service agency gatherings or environmental? Group regional conferences or work groups? Look at what you’re naturally doing and that’s where you need to be. How can you then use those existing relationships for the betterment of your work and there’s? Everything we just talked about, you write all that collaboration. All right, diane, hte leonard with the h for my maiden name, which is corey. Corey. Okay. Diane it’s. Leonard hori is not part of ah, her earl it’s d h leonard consulting dot com and she’s at diane h leonard always got that year was keeping her maiden name present, though, but abbreviated well, and also there’s a there’s, an impressionist painter. Diane leonard. So when you think about ceo and how you identify, i see. Okay, thank you very much for coming, diane. And thanks for being in the studio record. Thank you. Thanks for being here. You probably thought that i forgot live lister loving podcast pleasantries, inflate affections. Oh, you are. You are badly mistaken. The live listener love goes out. There were a couple of weeks, several weeks pre recorded here, but the live love goes out to you, the live listeners and our podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand of you listening on platforms like itunes and stitcher and pod bay and player and deutsche dot d or whatever pod bay dot d or something pleasantries to our podcast audience and the affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners throughout the country listening on those devices those old am and fm radios with the bet with some of you still have the those rotary tuners. I love those. Go away! Down the end there is your station. Thank you for being with us. Affections to our affiliate listeners what’s up for next week. I don’t know, but it will be a good one and it will not be about fermentation. I let you down that time. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com our creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is a line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez and this great music is by scott. Stein of brooklyn. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be green. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything people don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealised took two or three years for foundation staff sort of dane toe add an email. Address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno, two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for May 19, 2017: Healthcare Funding Options & Leadership Options

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Oh, hi there. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host this is show number three hundred forty, the three hundred fiftieth non-profit radio is going to be coming up it’s on july twenty eighth, three fifty music comedy special news i hope you’ll be with me for three fifty i’m sending spies special a pre show special live listener love to the fans of crystal a bat this insurance guy has a big fan base that this guy’s, a rock star who sells insurance live listener love to chris’s special live listeners, and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with my own militia if you try to soften me up with the idea that you missed today’s show health care funding options today is options day first, kriss la bat walks us through fully insured self-funding level funding and minimum premium. So you understand your choice is paying for your employees health insurance chris’s with marsh and mclennan agency and shared leadership options. We talked leadership options with jean takagi are legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group co ceos. Anyone? How about holacracy shared leadership on tony’s? Take two. My finger is still wagging, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We be e spelling dot com for all his fans. And, of course, for everyone else. Here is crystal bat with health care funding options. My privilege to welcome chris lay back to the studio as regional executive vice president at marshall mclennan agency, chris is an authority on employee benefits, including customer driven health plans and alternative funding. He shares his expertise and twenty eight years of industry experience to help you see how innovative employee benefits and hr programs can lower your costs. The company is at mm a hyphen and e dot com crystal bat. Welcome to studio. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here. I’m glad you are. Thank you. Read your colleague last week. Mark. So you’re going to shine like mark shine did yes, i know you’re up to it. All right? So we are we’re talking about funding funding options for employee health. Let’s, let’s reassure listeners first, this is not going to be impacted by health care reform that may come or is not going to be impacted seriously, right? Yes, that’s that’s correct? Most likely, the funding options will stay the same. Okay? Because we really can’t predict what’s coming out of congress, but we don’t expect the general ideas around funding that you and i are going to talk about to be impact. Correct, okay. Right? We don’t make the show irrelevant in two weeks after. Okay. All right, so it turns out you don’t have to fully fund. I mean, i think probably the majority are ah, now i know you do have some stats, actually, but i’m thinking small and midsize non-profits probably most of them are just osili insured, fully insured, really insured plan. Correct, but you have options. Correct. So? So in a fully insured plan, you’re just paying a fixed monthly rate that the insurance carrier sets for your organization and if its profitable to them it’s profitable them. If it’s not profitable, they’re taking on the all the risk skin and losing out. Yeah, okay. They probably don’t lose out too often, though. I’m guessing they might lose one year, but they’re probably gonna lose two years in a row over the long term state business. They have to make profit. Okay. Exactly. All right, so i think pretty. Yeah. People are pretty accustomed to that. The fully fully insured and ah it’s easy it’s level payment, i mean, and you know exactly what to expect. Her employees have a set of benefits and it’s all easily defined and of course, insurance, company’s, managing it right. So we’re just talking about the financing of the benefit plans, right? So that’s, often transparent to the employees, don’t get involved with that. So the employer is just paying the fixed costs, and they’re all there are alternatives to the fully insured, called self-funding, which can be explored for more, most organizations, five employees on up. Ok, so even for the smallest organization, correct benny on the state. But, yes, okay, okay, cool. S so this is going to be impacted by state law. Also, correct, yes, all right. Um now, if we are, if we are self-funding then we’re taking on some risk, correct, you’re taking on a portion of the claims risk so that portion you’re going to fund as the claims come in, but what’s often misunderstood about self-funding is that there are insured components built into self-funding so it may not be at the same level that you have. You’re fully insured, fixed rate, right? But you do have insurance components to protect you. Two different suits to specific types. There’s ones called specific insurance to protect you against any one person having a claim over a certain amount. Okay, you decide is the employer and you purchased that coverage of twenty five thousand fifty thousand. If a claim hits that level, the insurance kicks in, and then the second is called aggregate insurance, which is protection that your total claims that going don’t go over certain amount. Okay? All right, so i got you. I got you so you can. There are some. Yes, there are some insurance protections built into self-funding. All right, now you do have some stats about, um um about what? What? The percentages are around. Who’s self-funding. And how it’s. Been changing since nineteen, ninety nine like percentage self-funding vs versus the full, fully, fully insured thank you write. So especially since health care reform has has kicked in there’s been a movement towards self-funding on dh that basically is benefiting employer groups that have a favorable risk of benefits around the country. They’re showing. About sixty one percent of covered workers that have health insurance through their employer are covered under some form of a self-funding plan. Yeah, well, okay, so almost two thirds correct under some form of self self-funding and that’s changed from nineteen, ninety nine that was forty four percent correct. A big change. Okay, okay, um, so if we’re if we’re going to consider this self-funding option, there are some different kinds of costs that we need to be aware of, correct. Right now, we’re just like we have about two minutes before break. So why don’t you just kind of tease out the idea of these different kinds of costs we have to be aware of? And then you’re not going to more detail. Perfect after right after that. So in general there’s, two categories of cost, you have your fixed costs that you’re paying on a monthly basis and you have your variable costs will be, which will be your claims costs as they come in. Ok, fixed, invariable. All right, we’re going to dive into that a little more. We take our break a minute and a half earlier, so and then kristen are going to keep talking, finding out what your options are around, maybe self-funding all are a part of your employee health stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent with chris sabat when we’re talking about funding options for your employee health now, christine, you do not have lots of letters after your name. Last week we had i says that mention mark your colleague market lots of letters especially easy, like sees after name there’s all your where’s, all your credentials, they’re all just built into yourself. Yes. You know, i’ve been in industry since eighty nine, and i have my master’s in finance and marketing. I’m just really the experience in the industry on the benefits side. Okay, okay. Your bona fide? Yes. Okay. Okay. All right. So let’s. Now, zai promised diving a little more on these. Some of these costs that you have to think about taking on if you were goingto fundez self-funding fixed costs like like what? Like what? So the first fixed costs you would have is your cost to administer the plan. And typically you’re hiring an insurance carrier or a company. It looks like an insurance carrier called a third party administrator to perform all the tasks that that insurance carrier would under a fully insured plan. So paying claims customer service id cards for employees booklets. So from the employees perspective, if they don’t know what the funding is, it looks and feels like a fully insured plan to them. There’s no difference. Okay, so you’re outsourcing this administrative work. Exactly. No need for you to hire people to be doing this for you. Exactly. Cos that’ll do it for you. Yes, at a fraction of the cost of a fully insured plan. Okay. Okay. Um and the what? What else? Fixed costs. There’s this ways that now we now we get into some of the insurance coverage mentioned earlier, protecting us against a really unhealthy employer employee or or or or or aggregate. Go ahead. Absolutely. So so most companies that self-funding will have two types of insurance associated with their plan and their purchasing this protection. And the first is called specific insurance protection against anyone large claim going over a predetermined amount. And as the employees you, you picked that amount, whether it’s twenty five thousand, fifty thousand and as that amount goes up, the premium associating it kind of goes down exactly. Okay? And the second type of coverage is called aggregate insurance. And that’s protection that your total paid claims will not exceed a certain amount. Okay. And that’s, very inexpensive coverage. All right. And so these air part of your fixed costs that you’re going to be absorbing? Yes, if you’re if you’re exploring self-funding, you’ll get a monthly bill with your admin costs and your stoploss costs all printed out per employee, just like you get a fully insured premium bill. Okay, okay. On. And then you had the variable costs, which is basically what you’re going to be paying out for doctor visits. Right, etcetera. That right. Exactly. So the variable cost will be the claim’s paid out for your employee population covered under the plan. And in general, when you’re purchasing your stoploss insurance, the underwriter at the stoploss carrier will determine what they expect. Your claims to be given your employee population and then they’ll determine a maximum exposure. So if your claims go above this maximum amount, the insurance will kick in and cover it. Okay, that maximum exposure is usually set ten to twenty percent higher than your expected claims for your popular do-it-yourself kush. Exactly. Okay, exactly. Now, what about reserves in all this? I mean, if we’re going to be doing that, we have to have money set aside for the payment of claim. Exact. Exactly. So when you first go into self-funding plan in the first few months, you typically will not see any paid claims. Somebody goes to a doctor today. It doesn’t get reported two to three weeks from now when it gets paid. Okay, so there’s a cash flow advantage upfront going into a self funded plan, but on the back and if you ever terminate a self-funding plan, there’ll be claims coming into the third party administrator or the carrier that need to be paid based on service states prior to when you terminated, right? Right. That’s called run out or term a terminal liability. Okay, yeah, while you were self-funding toe at the end mean, you benefited in the beginning, right at the end. Claims are still going to be coming in as you exact your i guess. Or now fully insured. And you ended your your self-funding crackers. But but so that has to be a reserve fund, right? Don’t law must require something like you’ve gotta have ah dedicated account or something with the money. For the old yes, so typically a joint bank account set up with the third party administrator there paying claims out of this account when you had that crash flow advantage at the beginning of the program when your first during out self-funding we recommend that you just bank that money and that’s setting up the reserves for the event if it ever happens where you cancel the self-funding plan, okay? And how about knowing? Oh, well, i guess that goes into your expected cost. Me knowing how much to put into this reserve correcting for for a decent sized organization, i don’t know, like ten employees, i mean, could conceivably be half a million dollars or something. I mean, i’m just numbers don’t stop my head, right? You’re going to be more precise, you’re probably gonna say, well, it’s gonna depend on age, right and correct help histories, etcetera and it’s broken out by the underwriters on a monthly basis. So, you know, so when you get your stoploss coverage, they’ll give you a claims factor per employee per month. And that is how you calculate the number of employees times that claims factor gives you your exposure for the expected exclaims focus and that’s the amount that’s got to go in this dedicated reserve for typically yes, now you can’t you can’t be using this money for other purposes correct it, sze designated restricted or something for the self-funding plan? Yes, it should be air marks for the self-funding plants. He had the money available to pay their letting your employees down your absolute, obviously seriously. Okay. Okay. We don’t want people run operating that. Okay, um all right. So we’re talking a lot about self-funding what are what are some of the reasons you that non-profit might actually think about doing it? There’s some advantages? Yeah. There’s some big advantage associate with self-funding the first is there are a bunch of hidden taxes and fully insured plan. So under health care reform, there’s four four and a half percent in taxes that get attacked right onto a fully insured great. Okay, now, health care reform. Today on the day now, we’re recording couple weeks earlier, then this is going to air. So health care reform by that you mean the affordable care act? Correct? Or obamacare? Correct. Okay, not something that may be happening in congress in april of this year in may of this year is that right? That’s correct. So in the affordable care act, there’s a tax on non-profits that are any fully insured krauz any fully insured plan has attacks built into it that gets funded, the funds go right towards offsetting the cost of the affordable care act. Was it attacks on the amount of premium? You correct? Oh, interesting. Okay, right. Forty five percent you sent were correct and there’s also in some states and local taxes that get applied to fully insured plans. So when your self-funding you’re circumventing the state rules and some of these fully insured taxes at a federal level, yeah. Okay. All right. This one advantage. All right? What else are there? Other reasons it we have? Ah, younger, healthier group. You’re going to benefit because you’re paid claims will be much lower then expected or similar to expected. And then you’re paying less than you would under a fully insured plan now wouldn’t and ensure offering full insurance? Wouldn’t they be factoring in that you have a younger, healthier workforce. So health care reform change some of the factors that go in. They do account. For age coverage, tear with a single or family coverage if you’re a smoker or a nonsmoker, but generally you’re paid claims in a small group will not count towards calculating your rate. Wait a minute, we better impact that statement. Hold on, you’re paid claims in a given group will not will not what? I came here if you’re unaffiliated, if you’re in a fully insurance plan small group market? Yes, your claims do not drive your rates typically. Oh, they don’t correct because it’s the law of large numbers, they’re playing, they’re not going to base your rates on your claims. If you’re five people or ten people that’s what healthcare form actually did away with to try to stabilize the small group market just like those of us who are individuals, we go to the exchanges. It’s my premium is not at all based on my history could i mean, i think they might have asked if i’m a smoker. But that’s all yes, that’s one of the factors taken you okay? So we’re getting very small. So that’s at one end of the spectrum, tiny individual. I see what you’re saying. They’re all right there it applies to small groups as well. So i’ll give an example of you if you’re in a fully insured plan, you’re paying fixed rate every month and say your premium comes to one hundred thousand dollars a year. Okay, now, if you wanna self-funding plan, you’re paying your fixed costs, which might be twenty or thirty thousand will estimate and then there’s seventy thousand and projected claims what your claims only coming at ten thousand, you’re only paying ten thousand wonderful insure plan you pay the full hundred thousand still alright, so there’s an opportunity here for a new organization to engage in employee health, health, health and wellness, right? Yes, if you’re going to go fully every, i’m sorry if you’re goingto self-funding you can enjoy some benefits of every every, every two weeks, we have a five k run or, you know, whatever i say, right? I mean it’s perfect segway twenty foot that one of the next advantages. If you have an active wellness program where you’re engaging your employees and getting healthy, that can parlay into fewer claims and under self-funding plan, you benefit directly from that you’re not paying out claims on un employees that don’t go to the doctor. Okay? What size organization do we have to be? Or was it eliminated completely under affordable care act, where they would start looking at our claims history and our wellness programs? If we were going fully insured so it vary state by state eso it khun b fifty employees, one hundred employees and and more. All right, you have to be that size for them to start factoring in your individual act. Your program’s done. But i mean, you could have, like, smoking cessation. You could have, i don’t know. Organization provided fitbits and everybody’s got eight or ten thousand step daily minimum, right? You can have all kinds of programs to try to save yourself. Money. Those air, those air common wellness programs. There’s not innovative thinking, innovative now company and fried. It provided fifty. Now they’re doing that. Yes. Alright. I thought maybe i had some some great insights. Okay, um all right. So i just happened to be a big wellness fan so you could save some money if you doing self insurance. Self-funding self-funding i should say on and there’s a couple there’s. A couple more advantages. Get more transparency. You see, you’re paid claims were under fully insured arrangement. You typically do not especially smaller employers, so you don’t get to see the claims them all employers typically, we’ll not see their claims history because they’re not allowed or that usually carrier policy not to give out paid claims to smaller employers, especially if they’re rates aren’t dictated by plane. So that gives you the ability to better budget for future costs because you have all the information and it helps you design with plan design. So if you know people are over using the emergency room, you might up the co pan the emergency room copay and you might lower the copay on your urgent care centers or tele medicine to try to drive people with lower cost setting. Yes. Okay, so you could drive some behaviors. Okay. I could see that there’s one last one. It gives you the ability to not have to include state mandated benefits in your plan. And that’s, a big benefit for companies who have people across state lines because they can provide one seamless plan designed for all their employees. You say companies. But we non-profit organizations exactly. All right. So different. States have different mandated benefits, correct packages? Correct. Okay, i saw a bit of a little i mean, this is kind of interesting, well, privacy issue coming out of what you were just saying, if you’re self-funding you’re able to see claims history now you know who the unhealthy people are, right? Who’s got bad behaviors, etcetera mean, who wrecked a lot of so the reporting khun b done where’s d identified which just means you’re seeing general information, but it is if you have a smaller the company, you might be able to identify who those people are. S o typically you would want tohave an internal privacy policy, which which follows the hip national privacy standards with a privacy officer and a policy in place to protect that information and only have certain people buy-in certain people given access to the information within your organization. Ok, ok, that actually dovetails with what? What mark and i talked about last week levels of compartmentalization correct categorization, i believe he called. Okay, um, who typically would be looking at this data if we’re going self-funding who looks at this on a monthly basis so typically be somebody in hr maybe. Something in finance and it’s almost it’s, almost always d identified so you know, you’re not going to know who the people are, but they’re looking at it, just seeing what claims were being paid out and budget and future years, and then also the behaviours trying toe like you said, friends instance, if we see emergency rooms being overused, correct plan design, and then we could also just have meetings about listen, people, you know, you’re hurting our you’re hurting the organization by using the as your primary care or something like that, you know, you’re hurting. We’re trying to stay self-funding for for the these reasons because we think it’s better for you then than being fully insured. But you’re making it hard for us to do so right? Get a primary care physician. Yeah, you can have meetings about the right can you talk about? You can talk about that, you can have any things. And you, khun target wellness programs like you reference if you see your population has a history of high blood pressure or a lot of smokers, you can use that information to taylor educational program. Bring people in current, bring people in to talk about hypertension. Manage? Absolutely. Okay. Diabetic diabetes management? Yes. If people are having a lot of diabetes related issues. Okay. Okay. All right. So we still have some time left. What? My voice just cracked still. What? What happened? I asked you what else? What else could we talk about? Some of the some of the negatives with self-funding. So if you’re moving to a self funded arrangement, you have the variable cash outlay potential. So one month your claims can be very favorable. The next month you can have high claims. You do have those reinsurance caps built in protection. Stoploss is you’ve already examined all the jargon. I got tongue now, stoploss but you can still have some variants and some come organisations prefer the fixed costs associated with a fully insured plan. You know what you’re paying your budget for it and that’s your costs for the year where self-funding can vary over the course of twelve months. Okay, um, how does it work? This is a very basic question. But if you if you are self-funding, how does it work in terms of a network of hospitals and doctors? Have you that’s? Good cause. You choose what providers are available to your employees. So when when you hire the third party administrator or insurance carrier to administer the plan there, providing that service for you so you can hire a big insurance company and use their network, you’re renting their network to access those discounts. That’s part of the administrative fees it gets broken out into network rental fee utilization management, he gets into a very a lot, a lot of details broken out, focus. Okay, well, because you can use somebody’s network and not be insured by the exactly you’re taking the risk, you’re just using them to administer the plan. Roger. Okay, i say interesting. Okay, um, what else? We still got a few minutes left, so that zoho your disadvantages of having any of that was that was one big one. The other one is if you ever want to get out of self-funding you have that terminal liability. So if you say i’m canceling my self-funding plan today, you’ll have a couple months of claims to pay out. Still for claims that were incurred prior to your cancellation date. And at the same time, if you’re signing up for a fully insured plan, you’re paying the fully insured rates so it’s like a double payment for a few months to get out of this self-funding plan. I got to get to cool things. I got terminal liability and stoploss yes was going around saying, you sound like a genius, alright stoploss german labbate that’s a term reliability problem on dh that i could touch on to two other quick thing before you do, though dahna the terminal liability i mean, could that could that go on for years? I mean, suppose someone made a claim while you were still self-funding and then they continue to have related issues to that claim like so i don’t know what a surgery that went bad or something, and then years later, they’re still having, like following surgeries to that infection from when you were self-funding what good question so it’s driven by the nhk earl date of the claim? So if i go to a doctor today and i’m self-funding today, it gets paid dahna self-funding plan for that same condition if i go to the doctor next month and next month i’m under a fully insured plan gets paid by the flame. Shirt plan. Oh, so the general liabilities just the run out. They call it from the from the self-funding period when people went to the doctor during that plan here. All right, so it’s not considered like a pre existing condition. Correct? Where the now insurance company, because you’re fully insured kicks is going is going to kick it back to you from what? Your self-funding days doesn’t work like that. Correct? It does not. Does not. Okay. Okay. All right. That’s, some reliability thisyou xero everywhere you’re in our daily lives. Term liability stoploss okay, what else you got? I could do real quickly to other hybrid type products between fully insured and self-funding. So you have some combination once called level funding, and this gives you the fixed costs of a fully insured plan where you paint a rate every month for employees. But at the end of the year, if your claims are favorable, there’s the potential to get a refund of a portion of the terrible claims. Oh, so you benefit if if claims air. Good. Act. Okay. And if claims are are not good. You’ve paid your rate for the year and you walk away. Okay, well, that’s, because you have what you want had some stoploss coverage it’s all built into, like, a fully insured rate. So you have that fixed rate, and then if your claims are favorable there’s something called a settlement done at the end of the year, you know, if you would get money back, but there’s no potential. The additional dellaccio more correct. Okay. And then you have you said in which another hybrid? Yeah. There’s there’s one more call the minimum premium arrangement. And this is sort of like a fully insured rate, but you’re carving out the claims part of it and your funding the claims as they actually come in. So similar to level funded. But you don’t have the wait till the end of the year to get the benefit of favorable claim get, like month the month? Correct. Exactly. Well, okay, so there’s. A lot of issues to think about, and i guess way just have, like, a minute and a half left or so, but i guess this all comes down to risk tolerance. Exactly. Do you do? Do you want to just write off the wrist completely and give it to an insurance company? Or would you like to get some of the benefits of doing it yourself and maybe even having healthier employees? But you’re taking on some of that risk. Correct your risk tolerance and your ability to handle some cash flow changes from one month the month with self-funding and it really comes down to analyzing what would my costs be under a fully sure plan. Total costs. What may cost being herself funded plan at the maximum claims that’s where the stoploss carrier says you would not pay more than that. Yes, you’re a total costs on. Then what would your cost be under the expected where they expect your claims to be? Given your employee population and looking at those numbers will give you a good feel for where he should be. Okay. All right. Crystal bat. Andi. I demoted him because he’s, a crystal bat is a regional executive vice president at marshall mclennan agency. Okay. I wanna thank you very much, chris. Thank you. Tony called my pleasure. Coming up. We have jean takagi and shared leadership options. More options for you first. Pursuant, they’ve got a new webinar. Big surprise. It’s free designing experiences. That inspired donorsearch every brand elicits a feeling, you know this like think disney, starbucks, united airlines and each of your donors has an impression of your organization based on their experience and interactions with you with your brand. On thursday, may twenty fifth, you can join lutheran, our ministries, brad never ary and pursuance senior vice president hillary noon and learn how to create immersive experiences that inspire greater engagement from your donors and potential donors. Brad is going to share how lutheran our explored the journey of a key audience identified opportunities to improve on their experience with his brand, and they put in practice places that are goingto make measurable impact trying to make change. Of course, this will be archived if you can’t make the live session, but if you can, you register at pursuant dot com quick resource is and then webinars we’ll be spelling who needs to engage millennials? Maybe you’re bored has raised that as ah as a possibility or a need. Do you feel it’s important for your sustainability? Perhaps what you waiting for? We be spelling dotcom get started for pete’s sake. Hosta fund-raising spelling bee. This is not your seventh. Grade spelling bee. You know this. Check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and then talk to the ceo alex career. Set something up or just get more information. We be e spelling dot com. Now, time for tony’s. Take two. That damn finger is wagging again. 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Woodridge in new jersey, swan’s borrow north carolina, new york, new york and brooklyn. New york really got two out of three borrows this week last week. Course we had all five. But brooklyn. I’m glad you’re with us. Manhattan. Thank you so much, but gives he with that westchester that’s. Not bad. North of the city. Poughkeepsie live. Listen, i’d love to you also, white plains neighbors in westchester live. Listen level so to newjersey caldwell, new jersey, hackensack, new jersey. Still no altum pandu jersey, where my mom and dad are sitting right now. Uh, moving ah! Moving way down south san marcos, texas live. Listen, love out to you, san marcos on then coming back to the northeast, stratford, connecticut were all over except on the west coast. I know what west coast person who’s listening but he’s on the line so it doesn’t count. Not this week. And let’s do germany got to live listeners in germany? We cannot see your they’re so concerned about privacy in europe we cannot see your cities in germany nonetheless live. Listen, love guten tag the podcast pleasantries. They got to go, you know that you’re tired of me saying it, but i’m not going to stop the podcast. Pleasantries have to go out to the over twelve thousand, listening in that method pleasantries to you. Thank you for being with us on your schedule on demand, and the affiliate affections were looking to grow that affiliate list. Our outreach director, belly, betty mcardle belly. No, she’s. Not ever. Billy. Betty mcardle is working on that. But for the effect for the affiliate stations that exist right now. Of course i am. And fm stations affections to you. So glad that you’re station includes us on your schedule. Thank you. Jean takagi is with us waiting patiently. He’s the one i was alluding to, um and he is the managing attorney of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit low block dot com and he’s the american bar association’s twenty sixteen outstanding non-profit lawyer he’s at g tack on twitter and i believe he’s calling from an airport. Welcome back, jean takagi. Hi, tony. How are you? I’m very good. Very well, are you, in fact, in an airport? Is that what happened? I’m now at an airport hotel. A little bit better. Okay, where are you? What city you’re in? I’m in los angeles, los angeles. So that’s not far from you for san francisco. Okay. Okay. S a little background noise. I kind of like that. Mixes things up a little bit. Um, if anybody gets difficult while you’re on the phone, you know if you have to drop the phone, you know, and fight somebody off, just explain what you’re doing first before you just dropped the phone. Okay, i’ll make sure i hold them off, ok? All right, well, do what you have to do but inform me first that’s the first your safety is secondary to informing me that’s what? I’m that’s basically, what i’m saying, it makes understood, ok, thank you very much for that. So we’re talking about some shared leadership options. Um what? What brought this to your attention? You know, shared leadership has kind of been a little bit of a hot button issue recently amongst non-profits that are thinking of more equitable practices and in attracting younger people. Millennials, you might refer to the you know, to that group and say that they may not be is ingrained with the hierarchical structure that those of our generation tony, maybe comfortable within used to, and they’re really wanting tio have more of a say early on in their careers, so, you know, shared leadership issues, all sorts of forms are really starting tio to take hold in some practice on dh starting t gain in more popularity so are you seeing this? I guess mostly then in organisations where the leadership is thirtysomething or so well, you’re seeing it from from a lot of younger people, for sure. So living in the san francisco bay area in with silicon valley nearby, and this is not just a non-profit management or organizational structure, this is started in the for-profit world in this sort of spread into some non-profits but yeah, it’s a lot of younger tech companies, like suppose that that sort of kicked it, kicked it off some of experimented with it and left it like medium, but one of my organization that i’m on the board of a compass point non-profit services also experimented with holacracy and while it isn’t continuing in a whole keeping the whole model, we’re keeping aspect of it because you feel it’s really valuable. Okay, now i’m not going to put you in jargon jail because i know we are going to talk about holacracy but you just try to slide by me, and i want you to know that i’m quicker than you. So i i noted it, but you’re you’re you’re pardoned thiss time because where i know we’re going to talk about holacracy alright, so so sort of following from what you’re suggesting i can see the advantages there’s empowerment, there’s, there’s, there’s shared, there’s shared buy-in and empowerment of others. Yeah, and i think that works for leadership development with the team more people having more voices, teo impact what’s happening with the organization, what they’re doing, they become more interested in it that probably helps in recruitment and retention. It helps internal communication and collaboration, and it i think, necessitates cross training because you’re talking and trying to understand what your little part of the organization, how it may impact every other part of your if you’re one of the decision makers, are you’re making decisions as a group? You got to know the other three other parts of the the organization how your decisions are going to impact them. Yeah, i can see that this is not something you embark on overnight, right? Especially in the need for cross training and understanding. What’s going on across the crust of our organization for the thing people are going to be sharing in leadership now. Yeah, absolutely. The other, you know, benefit that has some people. Have been writing about it lately than it actually helps facilitate and succession planning. So we have more people who maybe pull, you know, in the pool of candidates to take over for for a ceo or an executive director. That maybe leaving the organization? Yes. Okay, that’s a good one, right succession plan. We’ve talked about that. Uh, ok, alright. See cem value. Um, but i see some potential downsides to this is going to be a lot more cumbersome for decision making. Yeah. I mean, you can imagine when you have too many chefs in the kitchen. I guess it is the metaphor analogy that people make on dh. So yeah, definitely neo-sage delayed decision making and that khun delay implementation of ideas. So you’re kind of the slow ship that takes forever to turn around. It can result in inefficiencies, and then you may lose opportunities, not acting’s. Quick enough cause confusion at the start. A cz you’re trying to figure out, you know, who’s accountable. How how do we, you know, make a decision? What if we’re split for? For what? If we start tio a form cliques within our organization and then we start to battle or engage in disputes with other factions of the organization. So their their potential bound falls that you have to actually really account for careful. Yeah, potential for open conflict. I mean, one of the things we’re going to talk about his co ceos and, ah, i mean, if the two people don’t agree. I don’t know. Yeah, get factions and jesus, you could start running like our white house. I don’t know. Okay, we’re gonna get to co ceos. All right, um, let’s. See? Well, we may as well go there. Um, what air you saying? Have you seen this? Have you have you seen this one in practice, where there were two ceos? Maybe any of your clients execute this? I mean, i’m just i’m just wondering if you’ve seen it firsthand co ceos, yeah, way have so definitely on. And i think this is actually becoming more of a trend, and i’ve seen it more in the nonprofit sector have limited exposure to for-profit sense since since i left that that world but i think you know, times are getting much more complicated. Management has also become much, much more complicated with, you know, technology changes non-profits are exploring earned income and advocacy and collaborations and employees laws are changing and then non-profit corporate and tax laws are ever changing, and right now there there’s some big, big changes that are planned, of course, on dh. So with all of that complexity, can one person really be the leader through the organization understand all of those those factors and be ableto lead the organization through all of it and that’s kind of why there’s been a little bit of a draw forming co ceos and succession planning is the other thing is, i think there’s supposed to be a huge turnover of executive lake leadership is the baby boomers are starting to age out of their employment, and they’re starting to retire on dh succession is, uh, is a problem if we don’t have adequately trained and experienced people in those roles, and coke co ceo platform’s can really help ease that problem. Ok, but with with all those issues that you mentioned for leaders to deal with, i’m not even sure that to people with their combined skills could manage, you know, can understand all that in the level of depth that that’s necessary. I don’t know, i’m not even sure two people could do it, so yeah, ee don’t know that i’ve ever seen three tio, no, but i’m just wondering if if i’m not sure to really adds that in my sense of it, too doesn’t really add that much more value. You could say it doubles, but i’m not even sure that’s enough, so if if i’m right, then why not just stick with one who has a strong team of people directly reporting to him or her it’s an interesting argument, tony, and indefinitely the single ceo structure is the one that were more comfortable with and probably the one that’s going to teach comin in for a long time still. But first, for some organizations, experimenting with two ceo structures can work out. And i think where we’ve seen this practically is where the two leaders share kind of a long term relationship, so they’ve already comfortable with how they work on dh, how they would make decisions together hyre the areas of responsibility, maybe divided so that one person has final decision making over these fears of the operation and the other one over other spheres, and sometimes, you know, in a very simplistic way, some people just refer to it is the internal management and the external management. Yeah, okay, some of that makes me makes me think of mika brzezinski and joe scarborough. I don’t know, okay, all right, let’s go out for a break and when we come back, jean, i’m going to keep talking about the shared leadership options. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they only levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy, tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m peter shankman, author of zombie loyalists, and you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent um, jean, i’m thinking this is goingto take some time to to implement and, uh, before you start to reap benefits from it, if you if you do it’s not you, you’re not going to see this immediately. The advantages? Yeah, you know, i think it’s going to take an investment on depending upon what level of shared leadership you’re talking about co ceos is probably the a fairly simple level, relatively speaking of shared leadership, but yeah, it’s going to require an investment, it may take a failure, teo, actually get it going the way you want it. So there’s definitely a lot of learning. It relies on it, you know, having a shared vision and common values amongst the shared leaders on if you don’t have that established, you really shouldn’t do this. You have to be careful of the amount of money, time and other resource is that you’re going to have to invest because that’s all got to be budgeted in if you don’t incubated and invested and nurture it, it means it’s probably not going to work. We’re also gonna need a lot. Of patients among our staff. Yeah, yeah, i think that’s absolutely, absolutely right. You run the risk of having that go to mom, go to pop kind of run things, right? Good cop, bad cop. Yes, right. Somebody’s, thie other ones said this, but i said no. So i’m coming to you, right? Right? You got to beat that stuff down. All right? Interesting let’s go to one that i want to make sure we spend enough time on this. To me, it sounds like anarchy, but you’ve said your organization you’re on the board of is doing some of this. The pro you call it program autonomy is what is that? So the general idea and they’re different forms of this, but this this is on the other end of the spectrum of complexity. So this is a complex form of shared leadership where each program or each division oven organization is fairly autonomous, so doesn’t all rely upon going to the ceo on the ceo makes the final decision. Each group within the organization which might be divided into programs, will make their own decisions now don’t know, probably be working with the budget that’s been approved by the board on then segregated out into the different programs. So they know what the operating rules are within within their group. But figuring out how to distribute the leadership and that’s the one of the buzzwords, sum, sum. Avoiding drug in jail again, it’s. Really just distributing the leadership amongst the different programs or the different groups within the organization and there’s. One particular type of model that i mentioned earlier, which i should have waited until we got to this segment. That’s called holacracy on dh. That is a particular form of distributed leadership, where the different groups that that are taking on these local decision making authority rolls are called circles. No, james, no, jane. Yeah. Can you still hear me? Yes, i hear you. Okay, last thing we heard you say was holacracy is made up of circles, but you need to explain. Yeah, so you know, generally the way holacracy works is so it’s a form of program autonomy, although again, the circles or self managed groups don’t necessarily have to be divided into a program that could be divided into function. So there might be one for fund-raising for service delivery, for grants, for events, for public communications. So however, you decide you want to divide up the circles, it’s going to be an iterative process where you’re always modifying it. So every month you’re going to consider whether you should have the same circles or different circles, and each individual is actually going to take a role with multiple circles, and in some cases they’ll be the leader of a circle that’s going to help decision making and help facilitate that circle or that group of individuals within that circle to make a decision. And in other circles they may not be see that that leader on dh, so they’ll just be part of the group that makes the decision making, and they might be on three or four, five circles depending upon what their skills are. All right, this is anarchy to me, but you’re saying it works a compass point, it weaves we’ve tried it for maybe a year and a half, and we’ve decided to modify it so we’re keeping aspects of it. But we’re not keeping the whole thing, so you’re anarchists of anarchy. You can’t even follow the anarchic model of program autonomy. Okay, well non-profits pride themselves on their ability to experiment and hopefully do yes, alright, yeah. So who is but who’s orchestrating the overall? I mean, there’s got to be, doesn’t there? Well, i’m i’m answering my question, but better ask it as a question, doesn’t there need to be one or maybe two people if the co ceos overseeing the coordination of all these pola craddick circles yeah, there, you know, so it’s it’s, largely governed by two principles, one is you’ve got the law on the latto has the board of directors on top of the organizational hierarchy and does require a ceo in most states, or or a president that that’s going to be ultimately in. Charge however, they’re going to be a set of rules and systems, and this has to be very transparent and holacracy so you’re not leaving everybody to go. I don’t know who to go, teo, you know, maybe i’ll ask this person so in holacracy there’s a large set of rules that everybody knows and everybody has to abide by, including the ceo and that’s where how the different relationships between the circles are all codified and how the decision making goes from one circle to another. But ultimately again, it would be a non non-profit corporations you have a board of directors and ceo have to oversee the whole thing and can decide how to modify accordingly. Okay, maybe something for listeners toe look at program autonomy, let’s say i wanted to jump to the most complex one because i want to make sure enough time sometimes our talk at the end, our topics at the end get cut off a little bit. I don’t want that to happen with program autonomy and the holacracy pola craddick circles still feels very crystal lee to me, i don’t know dahna all right, let’s, go to we just have about two. Minutes left explain how the ceo and the board might be the leadership share well for small organizations that particularly all volunteer organizations it’s usually all hands on deck, right? The board is completely active in running the programs of the organization as well as just doing their regular board duty. So, you know, you got the ceo because somebody has to be ceo of a corporation that might be called president or chair of the board, but somebody has got to be identified in that way, and what their decision making authority is going to be will depend upon what the board wants to give to that position, but board make decisions board takes actions on lee at meetings or by written consent, so whenever individuals are actually running programs, they’re not running them as board members. They’re running them of volunteers with certain delegated authority. And what the board has to really be careful of is that they’re making sure that they’re delegating authority for somebody to run an event or somebody to run a specific program there delegating with due care, meaning that they’re not quitting somebody who would be totally unqualified and in experience latto lead. Something of importance to the organization because if it is, gets into trouble, you know, the board could be held for violating the produce very duty’s not exercising reasonable care in making that delegation, and they can’t just say, well, that was another board members, i couldn’t tell them what to do. That’s not the case. Yeah, yeah. Ok, i see. I see i see a greater responsibility and risk for for the board under this one, but it makes sense. I mean, they’re taking a more active role in the leadership of the organization. That’s, right? So that’s, that’s very much shared leadership where all board members see themselves as equal, but when they’re exercising roles that are different from meeting at boards and taking actions like approving contracts are approving, you know, the by-laws there acting as volunteers, so they have to realize that they’re wearing a different hat and the authority has to be properly delegated. We’re gonna leave it there. Jim takagi from ah hotel in los angeles managing attorney of neo and you’ll find him at g tak neos, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group. Thanks so much, gene. Thanks. Have a great day. I pleasure. Thank you. Next week, diane lettered returns with your grants team in and out. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we b e spelling, dot com, our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this cool music is by scots. Time you with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. 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Nonprofit Radio for August 15, 2014: Female Technologists & Hiring Geeks

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Dahna Goldstein, Rose de Fremery, Tracy Kronzak: Female Technologists 

Dahna Goldstein, Rose de Fremery, Tracy Kronzak
Dahna Goldstein, Rose de Fremery, Tracy Kronzak

Women are underrepresented in nonprofit technology–and leadership. What can your organization do to support the women who make up 60% of nonprofit employees? How can women help their own careers and each other? Dahna Goldstein is founder and CEO of PhilanTech; Rose de Fremery is founder & CEO of lowercase d Consulting; and Tracy Kronzak is consulting manager at Cloud for Good (Recorded at NTEN’s Nonprofit Technology Conference.)



 Amy Sample Ward: Hiring Geeks

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Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward, our social media contributor and CEO of NTEN, the Nonprofit Technology Network, shares strategies for hiring technologists if you’re not technical: job descriptions; interviewing; testing; and onboarding. 




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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week, jeff jody he’s, constantly spreading the word about non-profit radio, especially on twitter, is in athens, georgia, and franklin, tennessee. His businesses, lighthouse counsel. At lighthouse council dot com on twitter he’s at jeff jody j o w d y jeff shout out to you! Thank you so, so much for helping spread the word about non-profit radio. Really, i’m very, very grateful for your support. Congratulations on being our listener of the week. Jeff! Jody! Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with african trypanosomiasis if i heard that you had missed today’s show female technologists, women are underrepresented in non-profit technology and leadership. What can your organization due to support the women who make up sixty percent of non-profit employees? And how can women help their own careers and each other? Our panel interview is from the non-profit technology conference back in april and hiring geeks, maybe sample ward, our social media contributor and ceo of n ten, the non-profit technology network, which hosts the non-profit technology conference, shares her strategies for hiring technologists. If you’re not technical job descriptions, interviewing, testing and onboarding or what we’ll talk about on tony’s, take two a taste of non-profit radio video we’re sponsored by generosity siri’s they host multi charity five k runs and walk here’s the interview from non-profit technology conference on female technologists, welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc twenty fourteen we’re at the marriott wardman park hotel in washington, d c and i am joined by three women. We are going to talk about female technologists leading ourselves on duh leading helping each other, and those three women are dahna goldstein she’s founder and ceo of philantech rose defremery founder and ceo of lower case d consulting, and tracy kronzak, consulting manager at cloud for good ladies. Welcome. Thank you, thank you. Get to be here, let’s. Start furthest away, tracy. Well, why are women so underrepresented in technology? You know, i think it has a lot to do with a few things, you know? I’ll start with a little factoid, and it really is one because women in the nonprofit sector represent almost sixty percent of non-profit staff and on lee, twenty one percent of senior leadership. And that means that when you layer in something like technology, what happens is that you are not on ly coming to the table with already it’s slanted against you when it comes to accessing senior leadership. But all of the things that we talk about at this conference here, such as getting it to the table in the first problem, is prioritizing strategy at an organization you’re fighting that in addition to that slanted table. And lastly, you’re also fighting the factors that actually just make women’s career success something much more difficult than men’s career success because of all the things that you know, you’ll hear from, like strong women leaders in the for-profit sector, like marissa mayer and shell samberg’s, say about mentor ship role models and the ability to access that sort of informal formality that happens there on career promotion. So, you know, we’re here today because this is a time that it’s come from women in the sector, and we’re here today to talk about an issue whose time is necessary to talk about at this conference, and it sounds like women need to be helping each other considerably more than they are absolutely, i mean, the time has come for both women to not only step up to the plate with our own networks but simultaneously, you know, make sure that we’re looking forward for our own careers and put our hands back for people’s careers behind us, most notably other women okay, roughs anything more? You want to add introductory wise us to that topic? Absolutely, uh, the issue of women and technology in our sector, to my knowledge has never really been a formal topic of conversation at this conference, where in other non-profit forums that have been a part of and speaking as someone who has a long career in non-profit before the career, i have now about ten years as a non-profit director, i personally select role models. There weren’t i was one of the only ones around who i could look to as as the person who was performing that function. Uh, and although there’s plenty of networking for tea here at this conference, women in technology that has not been a dedicated for maura dedicated topic of conversation and there’s so much fertile ground. Um, and i’ve had women over plenty of time coming to me because they saw me in this role wanting to have this conversation. I thought, you know what? We really need to be talking about this in a more formal i structured way, okay? And rose in your own career, going backwards as an it professional. Did you feel sort? Of left out. Or did you did you, in fact have the support that we were encouraging? Well, it’s interesting, because some of that is mixed in with the issue that tracy was talking about just now where it is a function can have difficulty getting a seat at the table man or woman. I see my male peers running into this often as well. That being said, ah, yeah, and i think that some of this was, uh, necessary to build on my own networks and support groups of in mentorship opportunities with other women. Um, i didn’t necessarily feel obviously in concrete. Lee left out often, but then rate later on in my career, i began to realize, wait a minute in order to advance my career to the next level, i really need to be doing more in my own professional dahna and figuring some of that out a good amount of it on your own. Exactly. You know, dahna anything you can add the introductory wise. Yeah, i do think that the time has really come to have this conversation and i think even just walking around the conference if you look at the number of women here versus the number of men, you know, a lot of more tech oriented conferences, you’ll see a lot more men than women. But if you come to the auntie si, there are a lot of women so there’s a lot of women representation here, not everybody, is necessarily in a technology function in their organization, and some of that has to do with just the way that it functions are developing and non-profits and that a lot of people, men and women end up being maura kind of accidental techies and sort of being the people in their organization who are in a marketing your communications function, who are just comfortable with technology and end up sort of taking on the role of technologists. So one of the things that we feel is important to talk about is particularly for women but for men as well. When you end up in that accidental techie rule, as technology is becoming really mohr integrated into the mission work of organizations, how khun that transform your job function and potentially your job title so that technology is a more essential part of the role and more cases part of the job. Description in the job function that it’s actually being being pursued and since you’re talking about jobs, you just ended job description and function what what daniken can organizations do? And we’re going to get to the personal level also women helping themselves and each other, but let’s start at the organization level. What would you like to see done differently? Better? There are a number of things, and one is, you know, i do think that this this conversation about women and technology is really tied into the conversation about technology having a seat in the at the table in general s o bringing technology to the table to senior management, but the the staff that that tracey mentioned early on that despite the fact that women represent sixty percent of the jobs and the nonprofit sector on ly twenty one percent of the leadership, i think it’s really important for organizations to grow there women leaders and to grow women who are performing good functions within the organization into leadership roles, promote them into leadership roles, bring them to the table, we’ll bring them us into senior management s so that we can also then provide role models. For people coming behind us. And do you have advice at the board level? The non-profit board could be contributing to this. I mean, i think the board needs to be involved in the conversation. You know, boards are involved in doing things like setting hiring plants and setting compensation plans. So, you know, sometimes the board construction can also be ah, factor dependent. You know, an all male board is more likely to think about things and all male terms. So depending on the board construction, there may be ways to diversify the boards as well. There have been a number of studies that have come out recently in the for-profit sector that outlined the fact that companies that have women on boards and women and senior management rules outperform companies that don’t. You were making that point. Tracy was violently shaking your head. Yes. You want to tell us about one of those surveys? Well, i mean it. Obviously, the facts and statistics are out there. And frankly, one of my favorite terms lately at this conference has been let me google that for you. Because i think, you know, to dana’s point, you know, we have studied the phenomena of women in technology for years we know where the numbers lie for both companies that make conscious efforts to incorporate women’s leadership into their board and senior management. We know how they perform. We know, you know, on awful lot about women. But all of that study is actually, in my opinion, taking the place of riel action. Well, it’s, the kind of writes the chronic that we hear a lot of times by obstructionists needs to be studied more exactly, better studies. The research is not there, right? Yeah, you know, so it’s, like, you know, when people ask me for facts and statistics, i’m like, let me google that for you right now, i’ll tell you so. But on the other hand, it’s, like, you know, the difference now is the time has come for action. And i think what all of us came to the realization during the course of development of this workshop is that in the absence of seeing concrete, organizational action or consistent organizational action in the nonprofit sector, we would start somewhere. And that was kind of the onus for this workshop to beginning with anything more tracy you’d like to add to what dahna suggested still at the organization level, i think of the organization level, the study that most kind of resonates with my own experience is the one that says, you know, organizations that are mostly predominantly run by men always will default to male modalities and hiring and promotions, and it’s not got anything to do other than with communication styles and presentation of career assertiveness that makes those choices happen and very unconscious ways. So we can on ly break that by being much more conscious about elevating women toe boards until leadership positions in the nonprofit sector roughs anything you want to add on the organization level? Uh, well, i’m goingto definitely agree with my colleagues on what they said so far. Um, i also think that it happens at the personal level that women ourselves as technologists are going to have to kind of stretch forward and backward at the same time we’re going to be advancing ourselves and ours, our careers, um, and seeking a seat at the table if it’s not extended and and like tracy said, i don’t necessarily think it’s always a conscious thing, i think that there are defaults in culture that can kind of facilitate this but it’s not necessarily an obstacle. All you need to do is kind of press forward and ask one of the things that i learned in the research for tomorrow’s presentation was ah, that women a cz muchas this is still, you know, being debated and discussed right are not requesting professional advancement opportunities as much as they could, um, in the mentorship department. So that’s something that we as women can do, um, and it’s there’s nothing to lose, there’s everything to gain, but at the same time, i think we also need to recognize our own talents and experience and consciously look at other women dahna made a point about if you’re a woman and senior leadership at a non-profit to consciously invite other women who are coming up in the organization, too, the table to leadership discussions and conversations and forms, which would be appropriate so they can get experience and exposure. So you’re not necessarily asking for a promotion, but you’re asking for inclusion into some of the is it literally just like some of the meetings that you’re excluded from, even even without that having that? Leadership title? Is it that easy? Or i guess i’m asking what what is it we’re asking for? We should be asking for, well, that’s going to depend on a specific woman in her situation, so they’re they’re they’re playing women who i think probably should and, you know, definitely need to go out there and as for promotions, depending on what they’re doing and you know where they are in their career, but at the organizational level, absolutely, i think that there should be concrete efforts to develop women in terms of professional development, development opportunities, trainings and education and all of that kind of stuff that’s invested in the staff and this this also is an issue for i t staff non-profits in general men and women. Um but ah, in addition to that women and and others and in leadership in organizations should yeah, consciously think about if we have forums where decisions are being made in the organization at that hyre level, how do we get the younger women who have leadership potential explosive that an early stage? Excellent. Okay, i can actually often example from the for-profit world as well. And that is, you know, at this last dream force, which is a very large sales force conference this year, mark many often, and cheryl samberg spoke a great deal about some of the stuff that they’re doing at salesforce dot com with regards to including women in that kind of experience and it’s not so much that it’s the case that we’re saying ok, now you as a junior person should come in and make senior level decisions, but the truth is, is it’s a recognition that the exposure to the process is about how those decisions get made? The types of conversations that need to happen around them are limited for women and in there, the limited in a number of ways up to and including the absence of role models at higher levels. So, you know, if you’re a guy in technology, you know, another guy will take you out for a drink and say, you know, okay, young lion hears how business takes place, whereas, you know, if you’re a young woman in technology, a guy will take you out for a drink and everybody will say, ah, washington d c so, you know, the truth is i don’t get that. Washington. I don’t get it younger woman, older male usually indicates a transactional relationship, so here we are in washington, okay. Oh, i see on a d c residents. I’d take that a little personal thing. So you know, the new yorker, i did, i didn’t get it. I don’t think we think i hope you don’t think like that in new york. I don’t, i don’t think we do, but all right, but we’re in the belt, we are in the beltway now. I i got it now, thank you, didn’t didn’t, didn’t dick dude ing good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Dahna. Good this’s. The way we’re hosting a party in my french city, guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back. French is a common language. Yes, they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and it comes desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them. Share this story. Join us, part of my french new york city. Every monday from one to two p, m. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Buy-in you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll dahna you know, they’re making an effort for young women who are identified as potential leaders at salesforce dot com to be included in those types of manager meeting so that they can understand how those meetings take place and then replicate that modality of that decision making in their own careers to enable their own advancement. So, you know, he said, oh, i got an email mark daniel said, i got an email from a woman saying, i don’t feel comfortable going to this meeting because i’m going to this meeting and my manager, who’s a male, is not and he said, no, you absolutely need to be there because your manager, who is a male, has obviously had already the exposure to this type of meeting that you’re not getting so come, you know? And i think it’s those kinds of simple steps that can vary from organization, organization and career to career that can help create new, fresh opportunities for women in the sector in a way that, you know, hasn’t even been fully encompassed in terms of what the possibilities are, okay, dahna are there any resource is that you can point organizations to our sites that you can point argast idealware any any anything that an organization could turn to for increasing diversity and making conscious decisions around elevating the the statue of women? Well, i would say the first thing is anybody who’s, an anti seizure come to our session tomorrow on we will give some practical tips for the incredibly this is not going to air. We’re not. We’re not live and s o but people should have come to our senses that ntcdinosaur don’t worry overviewing sorry e-giving come, t c well, it’s it’s your life, but next year it’ll be a fifteen ntcdinosaur anything else? What about what i would recommend is starting? Teo, look within your organization to see if there is a woman who could take that leadership role and who can start teo, bring other women to the table if there isn’t somebody within the organization who’s in a position to do that looked to other organizations, maybe there are collaborating organizations. Maybe they’re partners, you know, maybe there’s somebody on the on the board who it has been a successful woman in business, you know, to have her come in and help think about howto structure programs and doesn’t need to be that formal, but how to start to create that type of inclusion at the organization. Okay, andi let’s, stay with you down, and we’ve talked some about what women can do for themselves, but let’s think about what women could be doing for other women that we haven’t we haven’t touched on yet. Where can we start there? Dahna yeah, absolutely. So, you know, i think that negroes mentioned this a little bit, but, you know, we’re at a point in the development of women and i t where there aren’t that many women and later the senior leadership roles, those who are and those who were sort of coming up through the ranks, we think have an opportunity and maybe even a responsibility to be good role models. Teo, you know, really bring to the four what they’re bringing to the table and also to mentor women who were coming behind them. You know, i think one of the things that we all experienced more have all experienced to date is that none of us really had any mentorship. We didn’t have any women who were doing the types of things that we thought we wanted to do who we could go to to ask for advice. And now that there are women who are in these types of roles, there’s a real opportunity and a real need, we’ve seen it already, and we have forty women signed up for the session to tomorrow. Younger women who are coming up through the ranks and non-profits doing on t work are really looking for that type of mentorship. They aren’t necessarily asking for it. So it’s zoho those rose would advise. And obviously rose said absolutely, if you would agree way that women should be asking absolutely, but but okay, but from the senior level we should be offering exactly. And if women aren’t asking, then we should be offering that’s exciting eyes, there’s something going on, universities that need maybe even lower in education. That’s discouraging women from thinking about careers in computer science, computer engineering, computer programming. I can speak to that. Okay? Because i took computer science at oberlin college. This was some time ago, but i found myself or berlin. Okay. Yeah, this was a while ago, but unfortunately, it is much the same as it was when i was there. This is circa nineteen, ninety four to nineteen, ninety eight. There are so very few women in computer science. Yeah, i was literally like one of the only women. I think i was the only woman in certain classes in one of two and the others on. But does this mean, is there something institutional in our education process, but even going back to high school, but where you have presumably not in their programming courses and, you know, are we encouraging women into those programming courses? And then how are the women treated by a the teacher and be their fellow students who probably are mostly male once they’re in the course? You know, where they there’s there’s like, belittling and ridiculing of marginalizing or they really, you know, part of the class meaningful e well, uh, that all of those things that you described and certainly happen, i think, there’s constructive steps that institutions can take to facilitate on reach out to young women who want to be interested in this type of work. There’s actually, i should say there’s a wonderful organization right now called girls who code, which is a founded by another overland alumna. Ah, that’s. Trying to address some of these gaps, i think that a lot of interesting entrepreneurial solutions to the problem are are underway. Aah! The institutions that i really care about and want to draw more women into the profession, which i think is absolutely necessary. You’re totally right that, you know, if you have these opportunities early up, as you’re bringing women through their early stages of education, it really sets the stage for future development on a much greater level. S o i along the lines of what tracy had said earlier, there’s so many resources out there. I could name a few that’s one women who code is one yeah, and there’s plenty of others, i think. There’s thie, anita borg institute for women and computer science and general. Slower, sure and need a borg institute for yeah, georgie for women who are interested in in coding in computer science. There’s. Plenty out there that there’s more than i could list in the course of aa program. Okay, if i could jump in for a second, i think they’re a couple things to think and to keep in mind one is that computer science courses in college or university are really only one path to a career in technology, you know, i think most of us who end up being technologists in the nonprofit sector come at it from an interest in non-profits primarily and, you know, whatever the mission is the particular organization and frequently come at it from being, you know, a junior staffer in communications or in marketing or a program or something along those lines. So it’s not necessarily women who went into it thinking i’m going to have a career and technology, maybe women thinking i’m going to have a career in marketing and sort of develop opportunities and see that they have an innate talent, but on the on the coding side of things, in terms of actually developing programmers, the organization rose mentioned is wonderful. Andi think part of what that’s trying to combat, and maybe this is sort of getting out a little bit of your question about the university campuses in the developer world, certainly in the in the start up world there’s a culture of kind of programmers. You don’t know if you’ve heard that term, but it’s, you know, bro bro sam, i haven’t so you know programmers and you know, they’re they’re they’re all guys and, you know, that is in the midst of changing, but breaking into that culture is tough, and organizations like girls who code are really working on that, i think a lot of people there seeing that women are, you know, clearly as active as as men at programming and certainly on the strategic side of things, but we still have a ways to go all right turn, i think, you know, to this goes back also in a way, to the question of mentor ship on the question of, like, who’s ahead of me and what do i see them doing, andi? And because, you know, when we were putting together this workshop, we all realize that all of us have had really strong male role models in our life. I mean, like, we’re like, wow, you know, we can name all these great men who were role models to us and, you know, it kind of there was this moment of, like, a collective like, ah, you know, and, you know, we don’t want that to happen for the next generation of women moving forward on dh, you know? That’s not to take away from the mentor ship that we’ve all received from strong male role models, but it is to say that men and women fundamentally the way that we communicate, even if it’s the same things said in the same way they’re received two different manners, they’re perceived two different ways and the same communication from a guy that’s like, you know, looked out his mavericky and looked at is like a trail blazer and a creative thinker looks at, you know, a woman saying the same stuff is often interpreted as, you know, someone who is unreliable and has fundamentally ill founded principles. So i was thinking pushy or noxious, assertive and aggressive, bossy, even boston leven well, i have another p word let’s just say i mean, she’s a real bitch. Yeah, yeah, and i mean, i will tell you that i have progressed to appoint my own career, where i’m managing people, and to this day i am haunted by that word because i will look at my which work the b word, you know, and i will literally chat over to a coworker him, i’m not coming across too much of, you know? During the course of this conversation because, you know, being conscious of that means understanding that, you know, being a guy, you know, being one of the broads is not gonna work for us, and they still call it the guy for a reason exactly, and, you know, we’re not going to get a head in that way, so you know, this is part of starting a conversation of how are we going to get ahead in a way that’s different and understands the context in which we’re working? Tracy, i want to stay with you just to pursue the the question of what women can do for others, the women who are in leadership roles, aside from offering mentorships and making conscious decisions, is there more than female leaders who who have that empowerment can can convey it down? You know, i can share from my own personal experience that i have had some very powerful women ahead of me in my career at various institutions that i’ve worked with and the trap that i felt they fell into that i have tried very strongly to resist for myself is now that i’m here being completely possessive of my power and authority as that person in that role has been advanced that far, i think any woman ahead of us in our careers, who’s proceeded to the point of things like vice president, director, founder principle it’s really easy because of the context in which we work to say, this is mine and all mine, you know, i have made this this moment in my career and, you know, any woman who’s coming up behind me is a threat to that because she might be doing something different or she might be doing something better. And i think, you know, for women who have advanced to a certain point in their careers, it’s not about saying what i accomplished it’s about saying, what are the women behind me doing that can inform their own achievement that i can highlight using that power using that established role that i’ve achieved to advance their own careers? So in some ways, that’s beyond mentor ship it’s actually calling out the context of saying, yeah, you know, like, i’m i’m confident in my role as you know, vice president or founder or prince civil or president and look at this other woman look at her achievements, look at how she is doing this work this way and, you know, focus that attention on her next because i don’t obviously need to prove myself because i’ve already been here and i think that’s a trap that we fall into a lot is saying i have to continually prove myself, even though i have that title on my door that says vice president or director or principal or founder are present good if i can just for a second, you know, i think in terms of asking what we can do for for others, it’s it’s not only a matter of doing for others within your own organisation, one of the big takeaway is that we want people to have from our our session and from ongoing conversations is the opportunity of network with each other, you know, so it doesn’t necessarily. You may not have somebody in your organization who can be that mentor or who can serve as that type of role model. Work with your peers, talk to your peers, their ways to either structured or unstructured pierre mentor each other. There are a lot of younger women who are sort of coming up through the ranks and there’s a great opportunity that creates a community, create some networking opportunities, help each other, figure out career paths, help each other ask for things, help each other get mentor ship s o i think even without having that that strong or, you know, senior level woman within your organization, there’s still lots of opportunities for us to help each other. And we have to we have to wrap up a rose. Please. I would just also add if you’re currently a woman and technology in a leadership position to be more visible. And if you are also coming up through the ranks, consider actually presenting on this topic. Last night i spoke with a woman at ntc. Very young woman, very smart. Who said, you know, i think i want to present a session next year said absolutely do it. If you want to find ah partner to present with your going tto learn so much in the process and you can keep that dialogue going. Thank you very much, ladies. Really real pleasure and important that it’s an outstanding topic and a rare one too. But but increasingly that’s that’s falling away. And it’s becoming more common dahna goldstein, founder and ceo of philantech rose defremery founder and ceo of lower case d consulting and tracy kronzak consulting manager, recently promoted at cloud for good ladies. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Pleasure. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the non-profit technology conference ntc twenty fourteen, thanks so much for being with us. My thanks to everybody at non-profit technology conference and and and ten, you know, generosity siri’s they host multi charity peer-to-peer five k runs and walks multi charity means that you can have an event with a small number of runners because together with a bunch of other charities, turns into many hundreds of runners and walkers. So if you’re using summer to plan for your fall fund-raising or if somehow you think that a five k run walk fits into your fund-raising i hope you will talk to dave lynn he’s, the ceo at generosity siri’s they have events coming up in new jersey, miami, atlanta, new york city, philadelphia and toronto. You’ll find ah, dave lynn at seven one, eight five o six nine triple seven or generosity siri’s dot com but you know, i prefer to pick up the phone and talk? Make sure you tell him that you’re from non-profit radio i pulled a video off youtube and put it on tony martignetti dot com this week. It’s a taste of non-profit radio two minute sampler with seth godin craig newmark, the founder of craigslist, and craigconnects charles best ceo of donors choose dot org’s, mark echo from echo enterprises, and several other people are in that sampler. Of course, the full interviews with each of them are on youtube, and again, the sampler is that tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, fifteenth of august thirty second show of this year. Amy sample ward you know her she’s, the ceo of non-profit technology network and her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere her blog’s, amy sample war dot or ge and she’s at amy rs ward on twitter, pay me sample word hi, how are you? I’m doing terrific ly while how are you? Good, good. I don’t know how it’s august but i’m fine other than the incredibly swift passing of time. Yes, i know thirty second show of the year already. Holy cow and god, yes. And mid august already? I know, but are you enjoying your summer? Yeah, i it feels like a vacation because i haven’t had to travel since the middle of june. So many people travel during summer and it is their vacation. But for me, it’s been a wonderful vacation of staying at home and having plans locally. Excellent way. Enjoy our summers, each of us, the way the way we like that’s. Very good. Portland summer in portland is the place to be so it’s hard it’s. Hard to leave when it’s the most perfect time of year here. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, i got a visit. You out there sometime. I gotta come to oregon. I’ve never been to oregon. Um, i know, i know, but i want to go. I really do want to go pacific northwest. Absolutely. I want to wash. I’ll believe it when i see it. Okay. All right. What do you think this is what you think of this panel of three ladies from it’s? Great. You know, it’s really interesting. And something that we were reflecting on is a staff after the conference to was, you know, it’s, not a brand new conversation, talking about supporting different groups, different communities either in within the inten community, at larger or in the tech sector in the nonprofit sector. But what we’re reflecting on really is the way those conversations i have taken shape and changed over the years, and this last year really felt like this was the ntc where there were multiple formal sessions opportunities like you presented where you folks could come talk, talk to you and have their their stories and their ideas shared more broadly, but also a lot of kind of ad hoc meeting’s at lunch where they would say, everybody come to the table if you want to have this conversation or let’s meet, you know it at the reception tonight and so many conversations about how do we how do we do more to get more people like us or more people like you or more people that know how to do acts? You know, how do we get more people into this community? And i think that’s really exciting and really interesting that that it’s at a place where it doesn’t have to feel like, oh, this is kind of a controversial topic. You know, we’re gonna have to go over here in secret and have this conversation, but that it’s such an open, you know, we really want to create a space in this community that is inclusive and is welcoming, and part of that is creating a great community, but the other part is saying, we have to go out there and make those invitations, you know, you can’t just say, i want to have the best dinner party and make all the food if you haven’t invited anyone to come over, so so i’m excited that the community is kind of at that space where it’s ready to go out there, think about how we’re creating community in inside this space, but also go out and make introductions and invitations and welcome new people in cool. I’m glad so this feels like a watershed year for you and yeah, it’s exciting, and i think it really inspired a lot of staff to feel like they’re not the only ones, you know, getting to see that there’s opportunity to bring more people in, because, you know, staff when when we know that there’s so many community members out there, but we don’t see them because we’re just in the office. I think the ntc really inspire them and reminded them, you know, there are all of these people out there and we can invite more people in it’s going to be great instead of thinking that it’s kind of just, you know, tucked away in the office that’s outstanding, and i’m glad i was a part of it. You feel like it was water. You’re cool. Maybe you’ll have me back next year. Yeah, well, we’ll see. Yes. All right. I’ll see you when i e i’ll believe it when i see it. I believe that recently. So over there at ntc, you get a lot of enquiries about bringing people literally into your organization. Hiring who are technologists? Yes. Oh, so you have some advice around let’s? Start with the the job description. Yeah, i think you know, this is especially the question we get asked the most. You know, we know that we need someone to do manage all of our attacker to help us with our website. But that’s what? That’s what? All that we know. You know, we just know that we need somebody who knows more. Than we dio. So how do we write a job description or where do we even promote the job on dh? So obviously it kind of depends on what kind of job it is it’s a website versus maybe on it, director, managing all kinds of systems, et cetera, but there’s still some some basic steps that everybody can take, no matter what technical job they’re trying to fail, and first is to remember that you don’t necessarily need to know all of the jargon and the acronyms and the web two point oh, everything. What you do need to know very clearly is what your organization needs and what your goals are, who your audience is. You know, if you kind of try to make up for not knowing by filling, you know, job description with a bunch of technical terms, but you’ve never put in there, you know what? We really need our systems that can talk to each other, someone who doesn’t have that integration expertise is not going to apply, they’re not going to know that’s what you’re looking for. So knowing what your goals are, the kinds of tools that may be necessary to meet your mission knowing that and being very clear about that is going to serve you more than, you know, trying to do an internet search for a bunch of jargon. Ok, so so that that’s the first caveat reminder on dh then also, before you start putting that job description together, there’s a great opportunity to talk to everyone inside the organization pull in from from what they know in their own job, you know, what do they need? What what tools are they using that they think need to be updated or and this is not like, oh, there’s, you know, so and so, who just personally doesn’t like this one tool we use not a preference kind of, uh, list, but here’s something that’s really stopping me in my work, you know, here’s something that isn’t serving me to do my job and create a bit of an internal needs versus wants assessment because when you look at that and you can say, will hear things that may be a bunch staff want, but they’re not the priority items of this, you know, kind of three or four things on our really critical needs list that’ll help you. Decide howto prioritize things both on the job description and when you’re looking at applicants. So if you see someone has, you know, a really great experience but saying their most experienced in isn’t on that needs list, you know, it’s it’s like, wow, that’s, greatest really cool project you did once, but not what we’re looking for. It’ll help you feel like you’re not just getting kind of dazzled by all of the shiny things on their resume, but you know what to look for, at least what? To prioritize a cz faras they’re experience or specific skills. All right, so a lot of the information that you need you already have. You just gotta start a conversation inside. Exactly. Okay? Okay. Ah, what? Anything else for the aa for putting together the job description? Well, another thing that i would suggest and it’s not going to be perfect. Of course you’re still going to want to edit it and make sure it’s, you know, meets your needs is an organization. But i’ve seen very few jobs that i have never been, you know, hired for before there’s very few times where someone has posted a job and i thought, wow, i’ve never seen a job like that, you know, i never in my life. So so knowing that you probably could go to, you know, idealist dot org’s look where there are millions of job postings for nonprofit organizations and look for a job, title or job description similar to what you’re looking for and just see how other organizations have explained that or how they’ve kind of structured some of the, you know, needs and an experience pieces there’s probably many examples out there just to get you started, especially with, you know, that fear of had i don’t wantto say this the wrong way, etcetera. You know, it occurs to me this could all apply if you were hiring ah, consultant as well, yes, i was only thinking of, you know, i was only thinking of the employees, but certainly ah, it all applies on the in that respect to consulting. Yeah. And i would even say, um, it applies when you’re bringing in, uh, like i contract id. You know, someone on an r f way. Wantto, you know, designer to dio this project or we want to bring in, you know, an organization? An agency to kind of help us with this campaign, like even those kind of larger than one individual consultant, but still outsourced project still using a process like this because if you can tell them nothing but what you want to dio teo to meet your goals, then you will have at least serve yourself well, instead of trying to anticipate all the things that they might be thinking, you know, you’re hiring either the staff person or this contractor, this consultant because they know more than you on those topics, so let them no more than you on those topics and really be clear about why you want to do those projects, why you need them to do this work anything else around the job description or i think we should move to starting to interview people. Yeah, let’s, start interviewing people. Let’s go. All right, so we’ve got these resumes, and of course, we’re now scanning them based on what our needs are making sure that we’re not we’re not getting attracted by shiny things on resumes that have no relevance to what we’re trying to do and what we’re trying to achieve. Um, okay, we were bringing people in and they’re a lot smarter than us about, about the things that we’re trying to hire them for, yes, we’re gonna do so i’ve seen a few different, uh, tactics work well for organizations that really depends on your comfort level, i think, but remembering, of course, that most often or organizations are kind of small enough that the person they’re hiring, whether it’s, a web person or a night person, etcetera isn’t reporting to another technical person, you know, they’re still going to report to maybe the executive director so not feeling that that person has to kind of opt out of the interview process because they don’t know the language again, they do know what all this work is going towards on, so they still should be a part of this interview process, especially the the manager, whoever that will be. But i would also encourage people to participate in that interview that art are probably not technical, but will rely on this person, you know, ensuring their systems their great, the development or fund-raising manager is often a great person because they maybe our technical, maybe not, but in many organizations they’re the one’s touching. The database the most and if you’re hiring a technical person who, you know, maintaining that data basically part of their job again, they might not be the most technical person on staff, but they probably have a deep investment in this tool, working well for them so that they can do their job. So bringing those people in that really care that the tools work well will help in the interview process because, again, even if they don’t know the language, they will be able to test out what it’s like to talk to this person they would be working with, and if they feel like, you know, they can talk to each other, even if in different languages and still get their points across it’s much better to figure that out and kind of have a feel for what? Talking and working with each other would be like in the interview process than it would be, you know, on day one when they’ve hired, and they’re just getting to meet and realize they can’t talk to each other right versus the she’s kind of condescending to me or, you know, right doesn’t really get me and yes, because you are going to be talking day to day once the hyre is made. So how does the person translate what they know the brilliance that they have in there in their niche of technology to the rest of us who were going to be using this technology and hoping it’s all going it’s all gonna come together and talk to each other? Exactly. And i like that you use the word translate because i was also going to make a suggestion kind of the other side that i’ve seen folks take in the interviewing process is to find someone that’s kind of a translator or ah, liaison. So reaching out either to a local non-technical group, you know, look, look on meet up, there’s. Probably a ton of groups in your city, whether it’s a non-profit tech related group or just, you know, maybe if it’s ah, web person you’re hiring for and you know that you use droop a ll contacting the local grouper droop a ll user group on dh just saying, hey, we’re hiring someone we would love it if we could spend ten minutes on the phone, you know, i was a volunteer from the group just to help us make sure we have the best questions for this interview, and that way, you kind of bounce the questions that you want to ask, you know, shared the intention of the question and had someone who isn’t. They have no, you, no stake in the game. They’re not applying for the job. They are not part of your organization, that they can say, you know, that’s, probably not the best way to ask it. Or, you know, if i was doing this, i would say it this way so that you feel confident going in your questions, meet your needs, and we’ll speak to this kind of technical component. We gotta go out for a way to go out for a break. And, amy, when we come back, we’ll keep talking about maybe testing and and some onboarding we’ll get that in just a couple of minutes. Stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Treyz. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m bill mcginley, president, ceo of the association for healthcare philanthropy. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Oppcoll all right, amy, where? Ah, we’re past the interview stage and ah, we want to well, yeah, we’ve we’ve decided that we want to move forward with a couple of candidates and, uh, test their skills. How are we going to do this? Well, there are a few different options i’ve seen organizations who, when they’ve kind of brought on that translator to discuss, you know, what air the best interview questions that we could craft for our specific a job and organization that they’ve also said, are there some tests that could go with some of these questions or, you know, ways that you would suggest we do this and they get it? It really depends on kind of the suite of skills you’re looking for, but i’ve also seen organizations really successfully say cash, we have this board of directors and a couple of them, you know, workin in larger organizations that have an hr department. Could we ask you to tap your hr department and see if they have a standard set of questions or a standard? You know, couples sets of tests that they’ve used in hiring on dh we can modify those and that way. You know, it’s been used towards success before on dh most, you know, most boardmember zehr happy to say, sure. My h r department will share some of that. Are these are these written tests are online tests. Have you seen i’ve? I’ve seen things where it’s online. It would be usually directly following the interview. So we’ve had the interview. You know, we’ve all been at the table talking, and now, you know, way have ah, laptop set up with this page. And can you, you know, walk us through how you would? Okay, as part of you know, okay, it’s, part of an interview. Yeah, okay. And and that so i would say, even if you don’t have a kind of technical components test, you know, tio assess that side of the skills. One of the most i would i would say important test to include in that interview process is to have identified from your staff what staff consider to be, like, emergency all hands on deck with a technical issue. So for many organizations, that means, you know, it’s, our end of year fund-raising campaign. And the donation page is not working, you know? Donate now. Button isn’t working, we just sent out an e mail to ten thousand people and donate now doesn’t work that’s like critical all hands on deck. This is an emergency, and so in the interview, actually sharing, you know, this would be an emergency tow us on dh staff would would be communicating in-kind of a crisis mode style walk us through if you came into the office that morning, you know, you walked in the door and a bunch of staff were right there and said, oh, my gosh, the donation pages down the donate now button isn’t working. You have to get this fixed right away. What would you d’oh? And if you have a candidate for your job, you know, start coming back with very technical language, even in the interview, you can anticipate that’s how they’re going, you know, talk in that moment and if staff immediately feel like, well, i’m not getting information, i need him, i’m still frustrated, i’m still in crisis mode, i don’t know what’s happening, you know, it’s probably a good measure of what it would be like if instead they’re saying, great, this is exactly what we’re going to dio this is how long it’s going to take, you know, this is when we’re going to be able to know if it’s thick and people feel like, okay, i know what’s happening, even if i can’t fix it, someone is fixing it and it’s going to be okay, you know, it’s it’s an easier way to deal in that actual crisis and maybe a better way to talk through kind of a test quote unquote, in an interview without having to set up non-technical, you know, actual demonstration, okay? You said there were a couple of ways of going about this any any others? Is that it? Is that it? Okay, so let’s say those were probably the most frequent that i see they’re, you know, talking through a situation or including something technical, you know, actually showing them some systems and seeing if they i would say looking that the systems is i’ve at least seen it happen more often when organizations have a little bit more of a custom set up, you know, they’ve done a lot, teo modify their database or they’ve got a website kind of cms that custom to them, and they want to see you know, hey, you probably not seen this before because it’s kind of our set up, why don’t you poke around and let’s see how it goes? We just have about a minute and a half left for for onboarding you have some advice about bringing somebody in? Yeah, i think that there’s this sometimes organizations have this feeling that they’ve hired this technical person because they’re totally different than everyone else, and they’re just going to go sit at their desk and be technical and somehow do everything all by themselves. But ultimately what that means is they’ve never been oriented to what everyone does and why they do it and why they need to be maintaining these systems the way they are. So i would say, onboarding needs to really focus on including this new technical hyre in all kinds of team meetings, campaign meetings, anywhere where they can really be exposed to the way folks, we’re talking about the tools they used, and they’re able tto learn oh, that people don’t know that we could really set up, you know, the database to do that report for them. I can i can help here so they feel. Like they’re a contributing part of the team and not just someone kind of keeping everything running in the background, we’re going to leave it there. Amy, thank you very, very much awesome, thanks so much for my pleasure. Amy sample ward dot org’s is her sight. And on twitter at amy r s ward, she’ll be back next month. Don’t worry next week we have two more interviews from ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. I have a ton of great guests from there. I’m going to pick two more for next week. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com small and midsize shops remember generosity siri’s seven one eight five o six, nine, triple seven or generosity siri’s, dot com our creative producers claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules are music is by scott stein of brooklyn you with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Yeah. They couldn’t do anything, including getting dink dink, dink dink. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get a drink. Nothing. Cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. 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M on talking alternative dot com you’re listening to talking on turn their network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking.

Nonprofit Radio for November 1, 2013: When Leaders Leave

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Priscilla Rosenwald: When Leaders Leave

Patricia Rosenwald photoYour CEO has been recruited away for a dream job. Where does that leave you? Priscilla Rosenwald, co-author of “When Leaders Leave” wants you and your board to plan for leadership transition long before it’s announced.







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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s friday, the first of november twenty thirteen oh, you know that i hope you were with me last week. I’d be forced to endure falik yah leitess if i came to learn that you had missed dr seuss stories, what khun green eggs and ham teach you about digital storytelling? Kelly jarrett with blackbaud had tips for each step of the story arc and lots of great storytelling examples and fraud protection. Melanie morton, manager of blackbaud forms, explained where you may be vulnerable and had a limit your liability for nefarious deeds like check fraud. Both of those were recorded at bebe con this past year. I just last month this week when leaders leave your ceo has been recruited away for a dream job. Where does that leave you? Priscilla rosenwald, co author of when leaders leave once you and your board to plan for leadership transition long before it’s announced she’s with me for the hour on tony’s take to roughly halfway through my thanks to two very loyal listeners we are sponsored by rally bound software for runs, walks and rides they are at rally bound dot com it’s. My pleasure to introduce priscilla rosenwald. She is the co author of when leaders leave she’s an executive recruiter. She and her co author have the site transition works dot com where you’ll find their book. Priscilla has a long history in executive recruiting and board recruiting. Priscilla rosenwald, welcome to the show. Dying. I’m delighted to join you. I’m glad you could thank you from philadelphia, right? Are you in philadelphia now? Yes. I love philly. Um, leadership changes these thiss can have a very big impact on on staff, on boards, on organizations. What? What was the impetus for your book? The evidence for the book was all the experiences that my colleague and i were having being called into organizations when the crisis already occurred. Either a long term leader had given notice on the organization was not prepared for that. Or really, there was a lot of turmoil with a founder and no ability to think about how to have any staff step up and run the organization when the founder exited. So we kept hearing these stories again, and again and again on i thought that if we gave people from guidelines in some steps tow, walk this difficult road, we could make it a lot easier and a lot of scary. As you mentioned, this could be not only a founder, but also along longstanding leader absolutely it’s really about ah, high profile leader who’s really so identified with the organization that everybody thinks of that leader synonymous with the organization, so it may be somebody who didn’t the role ten years, sometimes it’s someone that’s in the roll twenty years and often it’s the founder who certainly the respected respected leader who’s been there a long time, and nobody can imagine the organization without that person. What are some of the other symptoms that we find when there’s one person who had who has this disproportionate power over the organization? Well, often there’s a board that they’ve selected often the board to firms to that leader? So the board often step up in terms of governance, often the talent the organization has not been cultivated, so really it’s, not often a strong leadership pipeline, and the other piece it gets a lot of organizations into trouble is that high profile leader is often the face of all the thunders, so everybody’s terrified that if they leave, the funders really don’t know the organization and won’t fund projects, it won’t fund a mission, and when we have this board that was put in place by the founder or longstanding leader, then the decision making is all pretty much centralized around one person, right? And the board is like rubber stamp pretty much like that. The board doesn’t often ask enough questions are also get enough information there. They’re thinking that they’re being very responsible, but they’re often missing a lot of information to help them be more strategic. You talk a lot about aligning the organization legacy and the leaders legacy and, you know, of course we have the full hour, so we have time to flush these things out. But but what? What what do you thinking, their organizational leadership legacies kapin way think that’s a conversation that rarely happens. So when i when i talk about legacy, i really mean where the leader is thinking, they want to take the organization what impact they wantto have on the organization and then what impact they want the organization tohave so it’s really the impact, their personal impact and really the organization’s impact during their tenure. Okay, so aligning these things and that sounds like it involves a strategic planning process. Haha it does involve a strategic planning process. Um, however, i’d be curious to know how often in strategic planning these issues are actually discussed. So certainly legacy comes up rarely on the other piece that i wanted talk about that ties in with legacy is also succession planning. Yes. Okay. And you also make the distinction between succession planning and transition planning? Yes. Okay, you make that okay. Why don’t? Why don’t you just generalize that and we’ll have time to go into that detail also. Okay. So succession planning if it’s working well for an organization is an ongoing process, succession planning can actually even start as soon as a new leader is in place. Because it’s really continual planning and it’s really about talent management. It’s really growing the talent of the organization and making sure that the organization, um, is growing in line with the challenges that it’s facing so it’s a much more strategic approach. There is something that we call emergency. Succession planning and every organization needs tto have an emergency plan in place if the ceo is the chief executive, it’s called away for a project, has a personal reason to be away for three to six months. So you do need an emergency succession plan, but that’s not the strategic succession plan. Okay, and then, you know, i mean, you’re laying out different long term plans. We’re going to have time, you know? I don’t want you to go too much detail now because we’re going, going, going to come back to you, but try to get a bunch of things, just lay some, lay some ground for for for everybody, all right now transition planning. What is that? Ha ha! So transition planning is put in place once the leader give notice that they’re leaving or decides to leave, some leaders decide that they’re going to retire in a year, and then the transition place the transition planning get started sometimes there’s not a lot of lead time, but that’s really how the organization is going to manage through the transition to search. And then what happens when a new a new leader is hyre okay, and so that’s the that’s what we’re going to execute when we know that there’s going to be a transition great. And we have the plan in place. That’s transition planning. Okay, so we have succession planning. We have transition planning. Um, you, uh you have ah, terrific example in the book of a, uh a phoenix arizona charity, having having done this successfully, the alignment of the of the legacies, right? Can you share that? Yeah, that was that was really a unique situation in that there was a founder who new they were ready to step aside but didn’t want to completely leave the organization, and they were really highly identified with all the thunders. It doesn’t often work. Tohave a founder stay involved with the organization and a new executive come on board. But with some work on the on the part of the board and on the part of my firm, we were able tio positions the founder tohave a narrowly defined role in terms of funding and cultivating the donors, and allowing the executive director to really take over the leadership of the organization in terms of the mission of the organization in terms of their eyes. That can see in terms of their they’re patient work on dh it’s been two years and now, yep, the founder is gradually and gracefully exiting. Okay, now we have just about a minute before a break. Can you just give our overview before we go to break? What? What? That process was between the oncoming ceo and the founder. So what made it work was a lot of very transparent conversations with the founder board meader ship and the incoming executive director in terms of being very clear about rolls and expectations for each of those people. So the founder that was stepping aside and the new executive director that was coming in very clear expectations that we constantly revisits about how they were communicating and who was responsible for what and having the board step up. The board also had a move from being a founder board into growing members of the board who weren’t all selected by the founders. So all these things were happening parallel and it’s really been it was really to your process. Yeah, and it sounds like some difficult conversations we’re going. We’re going to go to a break when we come back. Priscilla rosenwald. And i will keep talking about this will flush out some of these difficult conversations and and help you get these long term plans in place. Get and get at least get started. Stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth? Seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants and we pay attention to the details. You may miss our coaching and consultant services are guaranteed to lead toe. Right, groat. For your business, call us at nine. One, seven, eight, three, three, four, eight, six zero foreign, no obligation. Free consultation. Checkout on the website of ww dot covenant seven dot com are you fed up with talking points? Rhetoric everywhere you turn is last. All right. Spin ideology. No reality. In fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time for action. Join me. Larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the isaac tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to know what’s. Really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me. Very sharp. Your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower, radio dot. Com. For details. That’s, ivory tower radio cop everytime, was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education. Listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter, buy-in. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Priscilla rosenwald is co author of when leaders leave and that’s, we’re talking about leadership transition planning for leadership transition, priscilla, we’re not talking about bad, bad, bad happenings the leader get it gets hit by a bus, how come we don’t use don’t come you don’t use that in the book that’s such a doom and gloom scenario that whenever that expression comes up, people usually get scared, and i don’t want to continue the conversation, so i know it’s very popular. It’s not a conversation starter for us, so we don’t usually begin discussions about succession planning or transition planning with that expression. Okay? So on the positive, it could be that, as i said in the intro, your leader gets recruited away to a dream job or some some fellowship or research opportunity that they just can’t pass up, right? Or what we find also is that a lot of leaders find it there’s still another career left to them, you know, they run this organization, they’ve enjoyed it, but it doesn’t have to be the only success they have in their lives, so they’re starting to think about another way that they could do something different some people want, oh have an academic teaching roll. Some people decide they want to leave and have a consulting practice. So planning for that and having the conversations about that are often what’s really challenging and isn’t the case that some some leaders don’t know how to get out, and then they may have these desires exactly as you’re describing, but they don’t know how to make the move. That’s correct? One one thing that we did here in philadelphia is my colleague and i had an ongoing round table with executives that had been in their roles for a minimum of ten years to talk about how they were positioning the organizations and, you know, having succession conversations, and it was an ongoing group. A lot of the leaders did decide that they were ready to step aside from the organizations, and some of the leaders decided teo reevaluate their role and really reposition the organization. So not everybody decided that they wanted to exit, but everybody used it is a launching pad to think of their legacy and how they wanted their organization to drive. And also how to engage their board differently? Yeah, okay, that exactly. So then i was going to ask you. So what were the next steps whether whether they had decided to leave or or or not, but they were reevaluating what’s the next step after they’ve done the introspective work? Ha! Next step is really looking at two things. One is looking at the board talent and the other one is looking at professional talent, so really making sure that the board has a pipeline of talent there really a succession planning its board level so the board is really engaged in a strategic way and very knowledgeable about the needs and challenges to the organization and ways that other board leaders can step up and work with new people, said it’s, a very tight partnership between the board chair and the high profile leader. So it’s a way to really get boardmember to be more involved in the leadership on the staff side it’s really looking at hell, they’re cultivating talent, so making sure there’s opportunities for staff to grow their skills have more visibility and the other piece it’s really critical that i don’t want to overlook. It thunders that’s often the place where the organization’s really run into difficulty when there’s a transition and that’s it. They haven’t really allowed funders to really need other staff in the organization, and they don’t have a transition plan for how the ceo is going exit and the funders will remain engaged. Okay not-for-profits report, okay, now we’re crossing over into but when we’re talking about the board and the staff and cultivating leadership within that’s, the succession planning, right? Isn’t that part of really kicked into high gear when the transition planning? Right? Right. Okay, but i’m trying to segregate the two so well, so we don’t confuse people. And so i wantto we want to deal with the succession planning part first that’s where we were that’s where you were, you were leading with the board and the staff is that is we’re trying to cultivate leadership and talent from within. Is that right? Okay, how do we do that? How do we identify the right one people? Is this picking one person? You’re going to be the successor? How is this done? My favorite question. No it’s. Not about selecting the successor. It’s really looking at? The people that are in leadership roles, from mid management through senior management and looking to see if people are really having enough opportunities to coach, too. Teo delegate to really move into some of the leadership aspects that the ceo is having, and it’s also incumbent upon them to pass down some of their leadership opportunities so that more people can step up and share leadership with them. So it’s also promoting more transparency around decision making in the organization. So everybody really feels like they’re engaged in the leadership. So it’s, not one person, um, pipeline down to the team in and down to the frontline staff, and this is bored and staff working together in this process, right, absolutely bored working together, okay, we have to put some ego aside. This is. This is very difficult stuff, isn’t it? This is hard stuff. All right? How do we how do we get the founder? Our longstanding leader to start toe advocates? Um, responsibility delegate on dh put that ego side what’s what’s that gonna circle back to what we talked about before. And the conversation that we find most valuable is getting go, the founder of the long term leader to really think about their legacy. And if they start to think about the legacy, their own legacy and the legacy they have for the organisation, it sometimes triggered them. Think about planning and what they want to put in place. Because then they have to put a long range perspective on, you know, if they’re looking thing more short term or more tactical, they’re not off. You’re thinking about their legacy, how they want to re remember. You know what impact they want the organization tohave what credit they want to get for it, okay? And that’s that’s all wrapped up in their in their in their ego but it’s a way to support their ego but helps them think about how their ego translates into the sustainability of the organization. Excellent, excellent. And where does this conversation originate? Is it with the board bringing it to the ceo? It actually does originate at the board level. I mean, sometimes the ceo will start that conversation because you had your because you had your group in philadelphia in our group that was theo’s issues, but it’s really at the board level where that conversation has happen. Here’s here’s one of the problems so i don’t wantto in any way make this sound like it’s easy. The whole conversation of succession often raises a lot of red flags, and ceo thinks that it’s a race, the conversation, then the board thinks they’re ready to leave on the board, thinks if they raise the conversation than they’re telling the ceo that they, you know, they want them to exit if it’s done on a regular basis of succession, conversation is happening at the same time that strategic planning it’s happening, then it’s not a one time conversation, and then it takes some of the sting out of the conversation. It normalizes it. So then we’re continuing to think about developing the ceo and how they’re developing the staff of what it looks like for the organization going forward. It’s not a one time oh, my god, we haven’t thought about what’s gonna happen. Excellent. Yes. That’s. Very good. That’s. A very good point to make and see. This is this is why i love non-profit radio. Because if we were giving you fifteen or twenty minutes, well, everybody gets at least twenty. But we’re giving you twenty minutes. You know, we wouldn’t be able to get to that to that point of of how difficult, how it’s perceived when either party raises the conversation, but because we have an hour together we get we get to flush this out. So excellent. Thank you. All right, so i want can i point out an example, there’s an example in the book. Okay, well, first of all, every every case study in the book is actually based on our work, but i hope so. I hope he’s not made up my god of dramas don’t know they’re all real, but i worked with a young ceo and they’re sitting there’s a case study about her in there. And from the time she walked into the organization, she talked about succession planning. She said to them, you know, i’m still early in my career, i’m not going to stay here my entire career. I want to be very clear about that, but i’m going to say for a long time and i want to put things in place. So starting with the beginning of her tenure, she constantly talked about succession planning and constantly looked at her legacy and what she was going to do for the organization made amazing things happen. They made some financial decisions, they made some facility decisions, she actually positioned the organization, so when she left, they supported her, they applauded her, they were ready for her successor and she’d been there under ten years. That’s that’s got to be rare with ceo talks about succession planning at the beginning of their tenure, but but it sounds brilliant. It worked for her, and she continues to have a really high profile career in the reason and that’s, another way of, i guess, securing for the board that this isn’t because i’m ready to leave. I just got started, you know, i’m in my first couple of months here, but but we have to plan for when i do leave, right? So how does that make it easier for the board, tio tio here. Well, if if the conversation is less about the person and more about the organization, then it’s much easier conversation have. Okay. Okay. You know, our ideal is to take it away. You asked about egos. We don’t want this to be ego driven. We wanted to really be driven by what’s. Good for the organization. And i don’t want to leave people with the thought that well, i’m the executive director on i’ve been here two years and i didn’t start the succession planning discussion when i started. So it’s too late now, it’s tze not too late, but later. Yeah, okay. And as you point out, make it about the organization. Okay? Is there a is there a committee of the board that should be dealing with this? O r? Is this a full board activity? How do we implement this success in planning process at the boardmember? Great question. So it’s usually may have different names, but on the board it could be the governance committee. Could be the strategic planning commitee. Yeah, sometimes it’s rolled into the nominating committee. But it really is at a committee level. And at that committee there really should be at least one member of the executive team involved, okay? And our succession plan is this this’s a written document that, of course, like a strategic plan. We keep revisiting it’s, not like you put on a shelf. Forget it, but is this is this a written document? It is that the outcome. It is a written document that exactly get revisited along with the strategic plan. So it’s continually revisited in terms of where we’re going, with success in how are the rolls changing of the senior leadership? How is the role changing of the ceo? You know, maybe they started with everything on their plate. Maybe they’re starting to share responsibility, maybe they’re starting teo grow their team. Maybe they’re sending more people out to be the face of the organization, so constantly revisiting that and i want to get back to how important it is for that also happened at the board level, the succession planning it’s really happening concurrently with the board and with staff? Yes, and that i wanted to move to the staff right now. Perfect, because they’re they’re an integral part of this. Um, are they are they involved beyond the it sounds like they are beyond the cultivation of their talents? How is staff involved in this succession planning? Well, they’re really constantly involved because they’re constantly involved in coaching. I say that again and again could supervising and coaching or not one in the same so it’s their role to be coaching talent. Um, it’s really up to them to be part of joining in the decision making, it gives staff the opportunity. Tohave more transparent conversations with chief executive it. Really changes the tenor and the tone of of the leadership of the organization because it means that all the things that could never be talked about publicly now could be talked about. You know, what happens if and let’s think about this and, you know, talk about worst case scenarios, planning for success, planning for challenges, it’s all on the table. Excellent. Okay, as you said earlier, open open conversations, transparent, but but difficult conversations. How do we how do we execute these conversations at the staff level? We having having meetings about succession planning? We’re doing this. I know it’s. I know in general it’s ah it’s ah, conversation with the board. But we’re doing it at board meetings and having staff come. How do we execute this for the staff on nice question you love my questions. I’m i’m pretty pleased myself. So people do it’s not our world, to tell people how to do strategic planning, but usually success full strategic planning, engaging staff as well as the board. So the staff for part of the conversation at the strategic planning level and then and it may cast k down, so it may not be the entire staff, but it may be representative to the staff, but if the staff are engaged in the conversation and it’s easy for them to be part of the follow through and part of the planning if it’s just handed down from the board, it’s really much more challenging for the staff to take a role in it? What if? What if we already have our strategic plan in place? We just we just wrapped it up earlier in twenty thirteen, and we didn’t include succession planning as a part of it. Another good question you wrapped it up, but you wrap it up as a couple of year plan. So it’s a it’s a three year plan, for instance, so the first time you revisit it, so you’re going to revisit a tier one that’s a perfect time to then have the succession plan in conversation. So there’s always windows to commit and have this conversation. And i want to say that i don’t expect that every organization can do this by themselves. It’s all facilitated process, you often need an outside consultant help you have some of these challenging conversation, so i don’t expect the ceo of the boards here to be able to easily step up and lead this. But once the consultant comes in and get the process going, i think the organization can can take their cues and manage it from there. And that’s, typical of strategic planning, generally that’s, the way it’s done. All right, we have to go to another break when we come back. Tony’s, take two. I have two very loyal listeners to thank, and then priscilla and i will continue talking, and we’ll move from succession, planning to transition planning. Stay with us. There e-giving inventing the tubing, getting dink, dink, dink, dink. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Nothing. Cubine are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun. Shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz durney i’m chuck longfield of blackbaud. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Tony’s take too. There are two people that i want to thank very much. I met high energy judy i dubbed her when i hosted a breakfast panel a couple of weeks ago for the association of fund-raising professionals here in new york city, the subject was creating a culture of philanthropy throughout your organization, in business offices and program department’s way beyond just the fund-raising office and, um, judy is a high energy judy, a trustee of a nationwide charity, and she does what i really hoped that boardmember listeners will do. She shares the shows with the staff of the organization when she thinks they’re relevant to their work and that’s that’s what i have in mind as as i’m producing this show for our boardmember listeners that everything isn’t relevant to your organisation, but what is i hope you are passing on, and if you’re in the organizations which most of our listeners are, i hope your your board members are filtering things to you and obviously that you’re thinking on your own that different topics are relevant to your work. But judy was just a perfect example of what i hope boardmember sze are doing as as you are listening, she was also very generous with her compliments of the show, and she had great passion for the charity registration work that i talk about sometimes and that i do in my own consulting. So judy, i didn’t you didn’t have a card, but i always have car. I gave you one of my cards. I offered you half a dozen, but you only took one. Please get in touch with me. I’d love to be in contact with you, judy. And it was a pleasure to meet you. Also eric anderson, eric blog’s at donorsearch reems dot wordpress, dot com and eric wrote a very complimentary post aboutthe show it was called have you discovered non-profit radio yet? He loves the show. He included links to some recent shows linked to the itunes paige. And in his blogged he asks, who is this martignetti guy i love that it was it was very sweet and it was really also very complimentary of the show. And eric, i thank you for introducing the show to your followers on your block and his block again is donorsearch reems dot wordpress, dot com high energy judy eric anderson i thank you very, very much. I’m grateful for your support and regular listening, and that is tony’s take two for friday, first of november forty third show of the year. I can’t give life listener love again, i’m i’m, i’m out of the studio, it will have been about three shows in a row out of the studio, but i will be back, but all the live listeners, you know, where you’re all from and if you’re not from one place, you know, while the other live listeners because i’m always sending so much live listener love, so we know we’re well represented in asia and all those very popular listening states throughout the country. I’m not going to regale you this this week and also, of course, podcast pleasantries very grateful to have all the podcast listeners. Thank you for listening, priscilla let’s, let’s go to yeah, you’re with me, right? I’m with you and i just wanna have mentioned a word that i think is very critical and we haven’t talked about in the first part of our discussions going that word has changed and that really underlies the reason that we wrote with leaders leave and that really underlying the critical issues. So it’s really about helping organizations constantly think about change, be prepared for change the position for change on dh no one knows what the change is going to look like. So it’s a matter of organizations being nimble and putting some of these systems in place. All right, we’re going to talk about the second recommended system or plan moving from the longer term succession planning to the transition planning. And why don’t you remind us? How is this different than the succession planning? So transition planning is put in place once it’s clear that the ceo chief executive is going to be deporting the organization whatever that time frame is, as soon as it’s clear that that train is in place than that the succession planning moved into actual transition planning. Okay. And to make sure that this train does not end up in a train wreck, right, we have a transition plan that’s in place long before we know that there’s going to be a departure. Okay. Right. What? How do we initiate this transition? Planning process so way mentioned this before we have a board committee that’s involved in the transition? Okay, same committee. So there’s a committee there’s a beginning of preparing which staff are going to have leadership will storing the transition? Um, you begin to do the communications about the transition of the chief executive, and you also start to stewart the funders. So the thunders air in place of the thunder start to understand that’s going to be a change in the organization. And i mean individual thunders institutional funders. Nothing is harder for an organization in terms of their long term growth that when a funder find out suddenly that the chief executive is exiting and they weren’t prepared for it, and they get very nervous about their support for the organization. So stewarding the thunder is an important component of your fund-raising professionals will agree those those fundez maybe individual or or institutional when you say fundez you just mean institutions, right? Ok, now you had made the the point. I’m a little confused the earlier that we’re not in the succession plan. We’re not naming the successor now by the time we have to execute our transition plan which again time stands it’s and it’s been in place for a while, but now we have to execute it now. It is time to name a successor. It is, isn’t it? Not necessarily. Okay, well, maybe that’s my confusion. Alright, no, i’m helen it’s a valid confusion success in planning doesn’t necessarily mean identifying a successor. That means identifying a talent pool that can manage the organization. Sometimes there is talent that emerges to be the successor, but it’s much harder to put that responsibility of one person through lots of reasons they might get recruit away in the process or sometimes there they don’t have the right competencies to move into the leadership role. What we see sometimes is the number two is offering operations person, and they do operations really wonderfully, and they get tagged to be the successor, and then they get into the role of being the face of the organization. They’re not comfortable being the things of the organization, they’re not comfortable doing the fund-raising and they may not be comfortable moving out of their operations roll so it’s much harder to identify successor didn’t let that process happen organically, through the transition and through the search process. What are we announcing then, as we’re executing our transition plan? We know there’s going to be a change in leadership. What are we announcing about the the successor or the plan to get to those? Thank you were announcing you love my questions. I’m sorry. I said you love my questions are great communication is about the stability of the organization during the transition. So that means there is a sense of timing for how long the incumbent is going to be there. And it also means often when they’ve been a long term leader or founder identifying an interim executive to be in place in the organization while the recruiting process is happening, it provides a lot of stability to the organization, and it also gives the staff and the board have time to deal with their issues of grief and loss. Because if there’s been a beloved leader, people need that time tohave, um, to catch their breath, to deal with their issues of law and then be prepared. Teo, accept and support a new leader. The role of an interim executive director now are you? Are you recommending that there be an interim person between the last day of the founder or longstanding leader on the beginning? The day the first day of the successor ceo. We always recommend that. D’oh. So so it’s. Not good, it’s. Not good for it in part of the transition. So it’s not good for the person to stay for the ceo to stay until the successor begins. It’s not ideal. Okay, it’s. Not ideal. And the other thing. And thank you for asking that it is. Boards often won the long term leader of founder to not just stay till their successor comes, but stay around and shepherd them through all the systems and policies and introduced him to everybody. Um, you know, i sometimes like in this to a marriage, um, and it’s really hard, if you know, if the husband gets married, has a new wife. And they think the ex wife really has to stay in the picture to talk about how everything happens. It’s something harder. So it’s much better that the high profile will well respect the loved chief executive founder gets a lot of accolades that there’s a public event to honor them, that they get a lot of support during their transition. So they leave feeling have be uncomfortable. And that their successor can come in with a clean slate and that the board looks to the new leader and doesn’t keeping deferring to the former leader. And you recommend that in between there there’d be an interim executive director or interesting in terms? Yes. I’m sorry. You said what i said. I recommend that and more. Okay, i recommend that with a caveat. And the caveat is that the interim executive director bia hyre professional and not the board chair and not usually an acting staff member. And i’m gonna tell you why, okay, but there are okay, we’ll get to the y in a sec, but i just wantto make sure people understand that there are consultants that act as interim executive. Director’s? Yes. There’s, always the pool’s consultant. Sometimes their former executive directors. Um, sometimes they’re people who had leadership roles, and they’re perfectly qualified to come in and serve in an interim capacity. Okay. And now the why you had mentioned a grieving and mourning process. What more you want to say about the why? There should be this interim person it’s partly to deal with the grief and loss. Sometimes, if there’s been a founder long term leader. They haven’t made tough decisions about staff rolls, and often the interim can come in and do the work in the organization prepare the successor to be successful. You don’t really want to hire the new leader to come in and have to do the dirty work that was left over from the former executive. They shouldn’t have to come in on dh deal with challenging employees that should all be done during the interim. The organization has a fresh perspective and is ready to move forward when the new leader comes in. Excellent, very inter treyz thing. And how long do you what what minimum do you recommend for the interim? So a minimum of three months, probably a maximum of six months. Okay, okay. And they have to they have to do some really dirty work, but we all know that they’re going to be leaving. So that legacy of dealing with the challenges which, you know, i think we’re talking about they’re firing people, reorganizing things like that. That, yes, looking scrupulously at finances right now, that’s all done by the interim person who is going to leave in three to six months, right? So they can make some of those hard decisions and ray’s heart issues that may not have happened during the long term leaders tenure. Excellent. Okay, now i don’t know. I don’t think most organizations planned this way. Do they have, isn’t it? Most organizations hyre an interim, and they’ll name someone probably internally, because the timing just works that way, they kind of default into it. Yes, okay, well, you could say in what happens, that’s, really, why we’re very big fans of planning. So if there’s a plan in place, then you can think about what happened, what they anticipate and that you’re never caught by surprise. Okay, okay. We’re going toe. Take a break. And when we come back, priscilla and i are going close this topic a little more on this. Very interesting, the interim, the interim ceo. So stay with us. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back, priscilla. I’m really thrilled that we got this made this point about there being an interim person as part of the as part of the plan is part of the transition plan. Absolutely. And you brought in earlier the topic of the funders let talk about that. What should the interim person be saying to the individuals and the institutions that are supporting us? So that’s part of the communication plan? So there’s a communication plan that should go out so the head of development should be working very closely with ian from executive director and the board chair to really talk to all the donors. I’m very concerned about institutional donors because i see a lot of foundations often put funding on hold when there’s a leadership change, so talking to them assuring them about what, how smooth the processes so they understand that there really is a process that the organization is being will manage during the transition seems to make a big difference for funders talking to individual donors about the mission of the organization and moving it from the profile. The leader to the work of the organization really sets the stage for the new leader to commence if you have these succession and transition plans in place, should you share them with institutional funders at the time that you’re making the proposal just toe say, maybe you’re just in a short paragraph that there’s there’s been considerable planning in case there should be a leadership change during the period of your funding? Is that worthwhile? That’s absolutely critical. In fact, thunders are starting to ask for it or that you’re seeing that, yes, they’re starting to ask, what kind of succession planning is in place often old they’re concerned about is the emergency short term planning, but they want to know that organizations, they’re starting to think about it, okay? And since you mentioned the emergency short term planning, let’s, let’s, talk a little about the emergency succession plan. What is that that’s? A new emergency plan for a temporary absence and that’s really, when i say temporary it’s really three to six months of an absence of the executive for a personal issue? Or again, you know, if they have to lead a major panel or a major project, but it’s really good to be short term, so we know they’re going. To be coming back quickly? Yes. Ok, i would just say that the expected contrast with the other planning we’ve been talking about the expectation here is that the person is going to return right here. They’re going to return. They may have left for a health issues they may have left from it, you know, pregnancy we’ve so we know it’s really interim planning, all right. And what should be the parts of our emergency succession plan? The parts are whose designated to assume leadership in the axe in the absence of the chief executive. What a story they have. Um, what the process in place to contact and inform staff how you’re going in for major stakeholders like your donors, who’s going to do that communication and what role staff will have in the absence of the chief executive of the rolls are clearly going to change temporarily. So it needs to be spelled it really clearly who’s going to do what and who’s going to manage and how decision making is going to happen. And then the last piece is very critical is who on the board is going to oversee this? It could be the board. Chair or it could be another member of the executive team that’s charged with overseeing the running of the organization during the interim absence of the chief executives. Can we hire one of these outsource interim executive directors to fill this role? Or is that is that not appropriate? For some reason, i not heard many organizations deciding to hire an outside if it’s just a temporary leave. Okay, okay, because there will be an opportunity for some of the staff to step up, step up knowing that it’s short term, sure enough, right? You’re right, that makes more sense. Let’s, let’s, go back to the to the institutional and individual funders. What is the well? Is anything more than the interim executive director needs to be saying aside from the that there is a plan in place and we’re managing transition carefully? No, because after that that’s really the responsibility of the inn from after that it really full to the development professional on the board chair to continue to have conversations with their funders and to continue to make them comfortable with the transition process. And again, you’re emphasizing the board is involved in this part of the communication actually, during a leadership change, i think that’s really the most critical time for the board to step up. That’s really their role, although they do fund-raising and they oversee policy, the board’s role in a transition is the most critical role they have. Okay, so it’s not only the board chair. Oh, no, no, really it’s really the board chair is leading it, and the executive committee is taking an active role. But it’s a really important time for the board. They’re also going to be involved in the search process for the new executive. So it’s, a very critical time for the board as well. Okay, we have just a couple of minutes left and i want to ask what it is that you love about the work that you do around transition. Oh, another wonderful questions. Um i think it’s exciting to help people think about change on embrace change and go towards change rather than running away from it. So it’s, always fun to watch the paradigm shift as people really get excited to think of that change. But people fear change. So why is it you write it’s? I’m envisioning you as a firefighter. You know, everybody’s running out of a burning building. And you’re the one running in with a hundred pounds of hose on your back. Why are you running toward on dh? So so in love with what people fear so much? Uh, mostly because it’s inevitable. Um, no matter how much you trying to avoid change, it’s the only constant we can count on. So we might as well embrace it and figure out how to use it in our favor. Very pragmatic. It’s. Very realistic. Brazil. Rosenwald, co author of when leaders leave, you will find that book at transition works. Dot com priscilla, you need to be one and thank you. Oh, soon to be on amazon. Okay, you’ll find it there as well. Honey, you’re a pleasure. Oh, thank you, it’s. You not to keep well, there’s, no more chances for your tio. Thank me for my great questions, but thank you for being so gracious and loving all my questions. Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure having you. Thank you, priscilla. Thanks. Take care next week. Getting to the next level. Lawrence paige nani is author of the non-profit friendraising solution based on his work as an executive director and fund-raising consultant, he has many proven strategies to get you to the next level of fund-raising revenue that ubiquitous question, how do we get to the next level? Lawrence has the answers next week. Rally bound is a sponsor, which i’m very grateful for. They make easy to use software for runs, walks and rides there at rally bound dot com i’ve told you i’ve met the ceo way had breakfast together schnoll lee is a very nice guy and very concerned about how non-profits manage their campaigns, and so he has developed software that helps you to do that. That gives support, of course to you very easy to use dashboard, but then also support for the people who are out asking their friends to give to your campaign. So i hope you can appreciate how he is thinking about what your needs are and what the needs of your your donors are who are out asking their friends it’s all built into their software at rally bound dot com. I’ve also worked with joe mcgee there and he’s, the one who actually help you set up your campaign, so i suggest if you’re thinking about run, walk rides, look at rally bound dot com, or you could just call them. You can claim a discount as a non-profit radio listener, for sure, and you would ask to talk to joe mcgee, and they are at triple eight seven six seven nine o seven six. Our creative producer was claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer, shows social media is by deborah askanase of community organizer two point oh, and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico. Of the new rules are music is by scott stein. I hope you will be with me next week. Talking alternative broadcasting, a tucking, alternative dot com, of course, friday, one to eastern. They didn’t think that shooting the ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. Get in. Good. Are you a female entrepreneur ready to break through? Join us at sixty body sassy sol, where women are empowered to ask one. Receive what they truly want in love, life and business. 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