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Dahna Goldstein, Rose de Fremery, Tracy Kronzak: Female Technologists
Women are underrepresented in nonprofit technology–and leadership. What can your organization do to support the women who make up 60% of nonprofit employees? How can women help their own careers and each other? Dahna Goldstein is founder and CEO of PhilanTech; Rose de Fremery is founder & CEO of lowercase d Consulting; and Tracy Kronzak is consulting manager at Cloud for Good. (Recorded at NTEN’s Nonprofit Technology Conference.)
Amy Sample Ward: Hiring Geeks
Amy Sample Ward, our social media contributor and CEO of NTEN, the Nonprofit Technology Network, shares strategies for hiring technologists if you’re not technical: job descriptions; interviewing; testing; and onboarding.
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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week, jeff jody he’s, constantly spreading the word about non-profit radio, especially on twitter, is in athens, georgia, and franklin, tennessee. His businesses, lighthouse counsel. At lighthouse council dot com on twitter he’s at jeff jody j o w d y jeff shout out to you! Thank you so, so much for helping spread the word about non-profit radio. Really, i’m very, very grateful for your support. Congratulations on being our listener of the week. Jeff! Jody! Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with african trypanosomiasis if i heard that you had missed today’s show female technologists, women are underrepresented in non-profit technology and leadership. What can your organization due to support the women who make up sixty percent of non-profit employees? And how can women help their own careers and each other? Our panel interview is from the non-profit technology conference back in april and hiring geeks, maybe sample ward, our social media contributor and ceo of n ten, the non-profit technology network, which hosts the non-profit technology conference, shares her strategies for hiring technologists. If you’re not technical job descriptions, interviewing, testing and onboarding or what we’ll talk about on tony’s, take two a taste of non-profit radio video we’re sponsored by generosity siri’s they host multi charity five k runs and walk here’s the interview from non-profit technology conference on female technologists, welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc twenty fourteen we’re at the marriott wardman park hotel in washington, d c and i am joined by three women. We are going to talk about female technologists leading ourselves on duh leading helping each other, and those three women are dahna goldstein she’s founder and ceo of philantech rose defremery founder and ceo of lower case d consulting, and tracy kronzak, consulting manager at cloud for good ladies. Welcome. Thank you, thank you. Get to be here, let’s. Start furthest away, tracy. Well, why are women so underrepresented in technology? You know, i think it has a lot to do with a few things, you know? I’ll start with a little factoid, and it really is one because women in the nonprofit sector represent almost sixty percent of non-profit staff and on lee, twenty one percent of senior leadership. And that means that when you layer in something like technology, what happens is that you are not on ly coming to the table with already it’s slanted against you when it comes to accessing senior leadership. But all of the things that we talk about at this conference here, such as getting it to the table in the first problem, is prioritizing strategy at an organization you’re fighting that in addition to that slanted table. And lastly, you’re also fighting the factors that actually just make women’s career success something much more difficult than men’s career success because of all the things that you know, you’ll hear from, like strong women leaders in the for-profit sector, like marissa mayer and shell samberg’s, say about mentor ship role models and the ability to access that sort of informal formality that happens there on career promotion. So, you know, we’re here today because this is a time that it’s come from women in the sector, and we’re here today to talk about an issue whose time is necessary to talk about at this conference, and it sounds like women need to be helping each other considerably more than they are absolutely, i mean, the time has come for both women to not only step up to the plate with our own networks but simultaneously, you know, make sure that we’re looking forward for our own careers and put our hands back for people’s careers behind us, most notably other women okay, roughs anything more? You want to add introductory wise us to that topic? Absolutely, uh, the issue of women and technology in our sector, to my knowledge has never really been a formal topic of conversation at this conference, where in other non-profit forums that have been a part of and speaking as someone who has a long career in non-profit before the career, i have now about ten years as a non-profit director, i personally select role models. There weren’t i was one of the only ones around who i could look to as as the person who was performing that function. Uh, and although there’s plenty of networking for tea here at this conference, women in technology that has not been a dedicated for maura dedicated topic of conversation and there’s so much fertile ground. Um, and i’ve had women over plenty of time coming to me because they saw me in this role wanting to have this conversation. I thought, you know what? We really need to be talking about this in a more formal i structured way, okay? And rose in your own career, going backwards as an it professional. Did you feel sort? Of left out. Or did you did you, in fact have the support that we were encouraging? Well, it’s interesting, because some of that is mixed in with the issue that tracy was talking about just now where it is a function can have difficulty getting a seat at the table man or woman. I see my male peers running into this often as well. That being said, ah, yeah, and i think that some of this was, uh, necessary to build on my own networks and support groups of in mentorship opportunities with other women. Um, i didn’t necessarily feel obviously in concrete. Lee left out often, but then rate later on in my career, i began to realize, wait a minute in order to advance my career to the next level, i really need to be doing more in my own professional dahna and figuring some of that out a good amount of it on your own. Exactly. You know, dahna anything you can add the introductory wise. Yeah, i do think that the time has really come to have this conversation and i think even just walking around the conference if you look at the number of women here versus the number of men, you know, a lot of more tech oriented conferences, you’ll see a lot more men than women. But if you come to the auntie si, there are a lot of women so there’s a lot of women representation here, not everybody, is necessarily in a technology function in their organization, and some of that has to do with just the way that it functions are developing and non-profits and that a lot of people, men and women end up being maura kind of accidental techies and sort of being the people in their organization who are in a marketing your communications function, who are just comfortable with technology and end up sort of taking on the role of technologists. So one of the things that we feel is important to talk about is particularly for women but for men as well. When you end up in that accidental techie rule, as technology is becoming really mohr integrated into the mission work of organizations, how khun that transform your job function and potentially your job title so that technology is a more essential part of the role and more cases part of the job. Description in the job function that it’s actually being being pursued and since you’re talking about jobs, you just ended job description and function what what daniken can organizations do? And we’re going to get to the personal level also women helping themselves and each other, but let’s start at the organization level. What would you like to see done differently? Better? There are a number of things, and one is, you know, i do think that this this conversation about women and technology is really tied into the conversation about technology having a seat in the at the table in general s o bringing technology to the table to senior management, but the the staff that that tracey mentioned early on that despite the fact that women represent sixty percent of the jobs and the nonprofit sector on ly twenty one percent of the leadership, i think it’s really important for organizations to grow there women leaders and to grow women who are performing good functions within the organization into leadership roles, promote them into leadership roles, bring them to the table, we’ll bring them us into senior management s so that we can also then provide role models. For people coming behind us. And do you have advice at the board level? The non-profit board could be contributing to this. I mean, i think the board needs to be involved in the conversation. You know, boards are involved in doing things like setting hiring plants and setting compensation plans. So, you know, sometimes the board construction can also be ah, factor dependent. You know, an all male board is more likely to think about things and all male terms. So depending on the board construction, there may be ways to diversify the boards as well. There have been a number of studies that have come out recently in the for-profit sector that outlined the fact that companies that have women on boards and women and senior management rules outperform companies that don’t. You were making that point. Tracy was violently shaking your head. Yes. You want to tell us about one of those surveys? Well, i mean it. Obviously, the facts and statistics are out there. And frankly, one of my favorite terms lately at this conference has been let me google that for you. Because i think, you know, to dana’s point, you know, we have studied the phenomena of women in technology for years we know where the numbers lie for both companies that make conscious efforts to incorporate women’s leadership into their board and senior management. We know how they perform. We know, you know, on awful lot about women. But all of that study is actually, in my opinion, taking the place of riel action. Well, it’s, the kind of writes the chronic that we hear a lot of times by obstructionists needs to be studied more exactly, better studies. The research is not there, right? Yeah, you know, so it’s, like, you know, when people ask me for facts and statistics, i’m like, let me google that for you right now, i’ll tell you so. But on the other hand, it’s, like, you know, the difference now is the time has come for action. And i think what all of us came to the realization during the course of development of this workshop is that in the absence of seeing concrete, organizational action or consistent organizational action in the nonprofit sector, we would start somewhere. And that was kind of the onus for this workshop to beginning with anything more tracy you’d like to add to what dahna suggested still at the organization level, i think of the organization level, the study that most kind of resonates with my own experience is the one that says, you know, organizations that are mostly predominantly run by men always will default to male modalities and hiring and promotions, and it’s not got anything to do other than with communication styles and presentation of career assertiveness that makes those choices happen and very unconscious ways. So we can on ly break that by being much more conscious about elevating women toe boards until leadership positions in the nonprofit sector roughs anything you want to add on the organization level? Uh, well, i’m goingto definitely agree with my colleagues on what they said so far. Um, i also think that it happens at the personal level that women ourselves as technologists are going to have to kind of stretch forward and backward at the same time we’re going to be advancing ourselves and ours, our careers, um, and seeking a seat at the table if it’s not extended and and like tracy said, i don’t necessarily think it’s always a conscious thing, i think that there are defaults in culture that can kind of facilitate this but it’s not necessarily an obstacle. All you need to do is kind of press forward and ask one of the things that i learned in the research for tomorrow’s presentation was ah, that women a cz muchas this is still, you know, being debated and discussed right are not requesting professional advancement opportunities as much as they could, um, in the mentorship department. So that’s something that we as women can do, um, and it’s there’s nothing to lose, there’s everything to gain, but at the same time, i think we also need to recognize our own talents and experience and consciously look at other women dahna made a point about if you’re a woman and senior leadership at a non-profit to consciously invite other women who are coming up in the organization, too, the table to leadership discussions and conversations and forms, which would be appropriate so they can get experience and exposure. So you’re not necessarily asking for a promotion, but you’re asking for inclusion into some of the is it literally just like some of the meetings that you’re excluded from, even even without that having that? Leadership title? Is it that easy? Or i guess i’m asking what what is it we’re asking for? We should be asking for, well, that’s going to depend on a specific woman in her situation, so they’re they’re they’re playing women who i think probably should and, you know, definitely need to go out there and as for promotions, depending on what they’re doing and you know where they are in their career, but at the organizational level, absolutely, i think that there should be concrete efforts to develop women in terms of professional development, development opportunities, trainings and education and all of that kind of stuff that’s invested in the staff and this this also is an issue for i t staff non-profits in general men and women. Um but ah, in addition to that women and and others and in leadership in organizations should yeah, consciously think about if we have forums where decisions are being made in the organization at that hyre level, how do we get the younger women who have leadership potential explosive that an early stage? Excellent. Okay, i can actually often example from the for-profit world as well. And that is, you know, at this last dream force, which is a very large sales force conference this year, mark many often, and cheryl samberg spoke a great deal about some of the stuff that they’re doing at salesforce dot com with regards to including women in that kind of experience and it’s not so much that it’s the case that we’re saying ok, now you as a junior person should come in and make senior level decisions, but the truth is, is it’s a recognition that the exposure to the process is about how those decisions get made? The types of conversations that need to happen around them are limited for women and in there, the limited in a number of ways up to and including the absence of role models at higher levels. So, you know, if you’re a guy in technology, you know, another guy will take you out for a drink and say, you know, okay, young lion hears how business takes place, whereas, you know, if you’re a young woman in technology, a guy will take you out for a drink and everybody will say, ah, washington d c so, you know, the truth is i don’t get that. Washington. I don’t get it younger woman, older male usually indicates a transactional relationship, so here we are in washington, okay. Oh, i see on a d c residents. I’d take that a little personal thing. So you know, the new yorker, i did, i didn’t get it. I don’t think we think i hope you don’t think like that in new york. I don’t, i don’t think we do, but all right, but we’re in the belt, we are in the beltway now. I i got it now, thank you, didn’t didn’t, didn’t dick dude ing good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Dahna. Good this’s. The way we’re hosting a party in my french city, guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back. French is a common language. Yes, they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and it comes desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them. Share this story. Join us, part of my french new york city. Every monday from one to two p, m. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Buy-in you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll dahna you know, they’re making an effort for young women who are identified as potential leaders at salesforce dot com to be included in those types of manager meeting so that they can understand how those meetings take place and then replicate that modality of that decision making in their own careers to enable their own advancement. So, you know, he said, oh, i got an email mark daniel said, i got an email from a woman saying, i don’t feel comfortable going to this meeting because i’m going to this meeting and my manager, who’s a male, is not and he said, no, you absolutely need to be there because your manager, who is a male, has obviously had already the exposure to this type of meeting that you’re not getting so come, you know? And i think it’s those kinds of simple steps that can vary from organization, organization and career to career that can help create new, fresh opportunities for women in the sector in a way that, you know, hasn’t even been fully encompassed in terms of what the possibilities are, okay, dahna are there any resource is that you can point organizations to our sites that you can point argast idealware any any anything that an organization could turn to for increasing diversity and making conscious decisions around elevating the the statue of women? Well, i would say the first thing is anybody who’s, an anti seizure come to our session tomorrow on we will give some practical tips for the incredibly this is not going to air. We’re not. We’re not live and s o but people should have come to our senses that ntcdinosaur don’t worry overviewing sorry e-giving come, t c well, it’s it’s your life, but next year it’ll be a fifteen ntcdinosaur anything else? What about what i would recommend is starting? Teo, look within your organization to see if there is a woman who could take that leadership role and who can start teo, bring other women to the table if there isn’t somebody within the organization who’s in a position to do that looked to other organizations, maybe there are collaborating organizations. Maybe they’re partners, you know, maybe there’s somebody on the on the board who it has been a successful woman in business, you know, to have her come in and help think about howto structure programs and doesn’t need to be that formal, but how to start to create that type of inclusion at the organization. Okay, andi let’s, stay with you down, and we’ve talked some about what women can do for themselves, but let’s think about what women could be doing for other women that we haven’t we haven’t touched on yet. Where can we start there? Dahna yeah, absolutely. So, you know, i think that negroes mentioned this a little bit, but, you know, we’re at a point in the development of women and i t where there aren’t that many women and later the senior leadership roles, those who are and those who were sort of coming up through the ranks, we think have an opportunity and maybe even a responsibility to be good role models. Teo, you know, really bring to the four what they’re bringing to the table and also to mentor women who were coming behind them. You know, i think one of the things that we all experienced more have all experienced to date is that none of us really had any mentorship. We didn’t have any women who were doing the types of things that we thought we wanted to do who we could go to to ask for advice. And now that there are women who are in these types of roles, there’s a real opportunity and a real need, we’ve seen it already, and we have forty women signed up for the session to tomorrow. Younger women who are coming up through the ranks and non-profits doing on t work are really looking for that type of mentorship. They aren’t necessarily asking for it. So it’s zoho those rose would advise. And obviously rose said absolutely, if you would agree way that women should be asking absolutely, but but okay, but from the senior level we should be offering exactly. And if women aren’t asking, then we should be offering that’s exciting eyes, there’s something going on, universities that need maybe even lower in education. That’s discouraging women from thinking about careers in computer science, computer engineering, computer programming. I can speak to that. Okay? Because i took computer science at oberlin college. This was some time ago, but i found myself or berlin. Okay. Yeah, this was a while ago, but unfortunately, it is much the same as it was when i was there. This is circa nineteen, ninety four to nineteen, ninety eight. There are so very few women in computer science. Yeah, i was literally like one of the only women. I think i was the only woman in certain classes in one of two and the others on. But does this mean, is there something institutional in our education process, but even going back to high school, but where you have presumably not in their programming courses and, you know, are we encouraging women into those programming courses? And then how are the women treated by a the teacher and be their fellow students who probably are mostly male once they’re in the course? You know, where they there’s there’s like, belittling and ridiculing of marginalizing or they really, you know, part of the class meaningful e well, uh, that all of those things that you described and certainly happen, i think, there’s constructive steps that institutions can take to facilitate on reach out to young women who want to be interested in this type of work. There’s actually, i should say there’s a wonderful organization right now called girls who code, which is a founded by another overland alumna. Ah, that’s. Trying to address some of these gaps, i think that a lot of interesting entrepreneurial solutions to the problem are are underway. Aah! The institutions that i really care about and want to draw more women into the profession, which i think is absolutely necessary. You’re totally right that, you know, if you have these opportunities early up, as you’re bringing women through their early stages of education, it really sets the stage for future development on a much greater level. S o i along the lines of what tracy had said earlier, there’s so many resources out there. I could name a few that’s one women who code is one yeah, and there’s plenty of others, i think. There’s thie, anita borg institute for women and computer science and general. Slower, sure and need a borg institute for yeah, georgie for women who are interested in in coding in computer science. There’s. Plenty out there that there’s more than i could list in the course of aa program. Okay, if i could jump in for a second, i think they’re a couple things to think and to keep in mind one is that computer science courses in college or university are really only one path to a career in technology, you know, i think most of us who end up being technologists in the nonprofit sector come at it from an interest in non-profits primarily and, you know, whatever the mission is the particular organization and frequently come at it from being, you know, a junior staffer in communications or in marketing or a program or something along those lines. So it’s not necessarily women who went into it thinking i’m going to have a career and technology, maybe women thinking i’m going to have a career in marketing and sort of develop opportunities and see that they have an innate talent, but on the on the coding side of things, in terms of actually developing programmers, the organization rose mentioned is wonderful. Andi think part of what that’s trying to combat, and maybe this is sort of getting out a little bit of your question about the university campuses in the developer world, certainly in the in the start up world there’s a culture of kind of programmers. You don’t know if you’ve heard that term, but it’s, you know, bro bro sam, i haven’t so you know programmers and you know, they’re they’re they’re all guys and, you know, that is in the midst of changing, but breaking into that culture is tough, and organizations like girls who code are really working on that, i think a lot of people there seeing that women are, you know, clearly as active as as men at programming and certainly on the strategic side of things, but we still have a ways to go all right turn, i think, you know, to this goes back also in a way, to the question of mentor ship on the question of, like, who’s ahead of me and what do i see them doing, andi? And because, you know, when we were putting together this workshop, we all realize that all of us have had really strong male role models in our life. I mean, like, we’re like, wow, you know, we can name all these great men who were role models to us and, you know, it kind of there was this moment of, like, a collective like, ah, you know, and, you know, we don’t want that to happen for the next generation of women moving forward on dh, you know? That’s not to take away from the mentor ship that we’ve all received from strong male role models, but it is to say that men and women fundamentally the way that we communicate, even if it’s the same things said in the same way they’re received two different manners, they’re perceived two different ways and the same communication from a guy that’s like, you know, looked out his mavericky and looked at is like a trail blazer and a creative thinker looks at, you know, a woman saying the same stuff is often interpreted as, you know, someone who is unreliable and has fundamentally ill founded principles. So i was thinking pushy or noxious, assertive and aggressive, bossy, even boston leven well, i have another p word let’s just say i mean, she’s a real bitch. Yeah, yeah, and i mean, i will tell you that i have progressed to appoint my own career, where i’m managing people, and to this day i am haunted by that word because i will look at my which work the b word, you know, and i will literally chat over to a coworker him, i’m not coming across too much of, you know? During the course of this conversation because, you know, being conscious of that means understanding that, you know, being a guy, you know, being one of the broads is not gonna work for us, and they still call it the guy for a reason exactly, and, you know, we’re not going to get a head in that way, so you know, this is part of starting a conversation of how are we going to get ahead in a way that’s different and understands the context in which we’re working? Tracy, i want to stay with you just to pursue the the question of what women can do for others, the women who are in leadership roles, aside from offering mentorships and making conscious decisions, is there more than female leaders who who have that empowerment can can convey it down? You know, i can share from my own personal experience that i have had some very powerful women ahead of me in my career at various institutions that i’ve worked with and the trap that i felt they fell into that i have tried very strongly to resist for myself is now that i’m here being completely possessive of my power and authority as that person in that role has been advanced that far, i think any woman ahead of us in our careers, who’s proceeded to the point of things like vice president, director, founder principle it’s really easy because of the context in which we work to say, this is mine and all mine, you know, i have made this this moment in my career and, you know, any woman who’s coming up behind me is a threat to that because she might be doing something different or she might be doing something better. And i think, you know, for women who have advanced to a certain point in their careers, it’s not about saying what i accomplished it’s about saying, what are the women behind me doing that can inform their own achievement that i can highlight using that power using that established role that i’ve achieved to advance their own careers? So in some ways, that’s beyond mentor ship it’s actually calling out the context of saying, yeah, you know, like, i’m i’m confident in my role as you know, vice president or founder or prince civil or president and look at this other woman look at her achievements, look at how she is doing this work this way and, you know, focus that attention on her next because i don’t obviously need to prove myself because i’ve already been here and i think that’s a trap that we fall into a lot is saying i have to continually prove myself, even though i have that title on my door that says vice president or director or principal or founder are present good if i can just for a second, you know, i think in terms of asking what we can do for for others, it’s it’s not only a matter of doing for others within your own organisation, one of the big takeaway is that we want people to have from our our session and from ongoing conversations is the opportunity of network with each other, you know, so it doesn’t necessarily. You may not have somebody in your organization who can be that mentor or who can serve as that type of role model. Work with your peers, talk to your peers, their ways to either structured or unstructured pierre mentor each other. There are a lot of younger women who are sort of coming up through the ranks and there’s a great opportunity that creates a community, create some networking opportunities, help each other, figure out career paths, help each other ask for things, help each other get mentor ship s o i think even without having that that strong or, you know, senior level woman within your organization, there’s still lots of opportunities for us to help each other. And we have to we have to wrap up a rose. Please. I would just also add if you’re currently a woman and technology in a leadership position to be more visible. And if you are also coming up through the ranks, consider actually presenting on this topic. Last night i spoke with a woman at ntc. Very young woman, very smart. Who said, you know, i think i want to present a session next year said absolutely do it. If you want to find ah partner to present with your going tto learn so much in the process and you can keep that dialogue going. Thank you very much, ladies. Really real pleasure and important that it’s an outstanding topic and a rare one too. But but increasingly that’s that’s falling away. And it’s becoming more common dahna goldstein, founder and ceo of philantech rose defremery founder and ceo of lower case d consulting and tracy kronzak consulting manager, recently promoted at cloud for good ladies. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Pleasure. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the non-profit technology conference ntc twenty fourteen, thanks so much for being with us. My thanks to everybody at non-profit technology conference and and and ten, you know, generosity siri’s they host multi charity peer-to-peer five k runs and walks multi charity means that you can have an event with a small number of runners because together with a bunch of other charities, turns into many hundreds of runners and walkers. So if you’re using summer to plan for your fall fund-raising or if somehow you think that a five k run walk fits into your fund-raising i hope you will talk to dave lynn he’s, the ceo at generosity siri’s they have events coming up in new jersey, miami, atlanta, new york city, philadelphia and toronto. You’ll find ah, dave lynn at seven one, eight five o six nine triple seven or generosity siri’s dot com but you know, i prefer to pick up the phone and talk? Make sure you tell him that you’re from non-profit radio i pulled a video off youtube and put it on tony martignetti dot com this week. It’s a taste of non-profit radio two minute sampler with seth godin craig newmark, the founder of craigslist, and craigconnects charles best ceo of donors choose dot org’s, mark echo from echo enterprises, and several other people are in that sampler. Of course, the full interviews with each of them are on youtube, and again, the sampler is that tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, fifteenth of august thirty second show of this year. Amy sample ward you know her she’s, the ceo of non-profit technology network and her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere her blog’s, amy sample war dot or ge and she’s at amy rs ward on twitter, pay me sample word hi, how are you? I’m doing terrific ly while how are you? Good, good. I don’t know how it’s august but i’m fine other than the incredibly swift passing of time. Yes, i know thirty second show of the year already. Holy cow and god, yes. And mid august already? I know, but are you enjoying your summer? Yeah, i it feels like a vacation because i haven’t had to travel since the middle of june. So many people travel during summer and it is their vacation. But for me, it’s been a wonderful vacation of staying at home and having plans locally. Excellent way. Enjoy our summers, each of us, the way the way we like that’s. Very good. Portland summer in portland is the place to be so it’s hard it’s. Hard to leave when it’s the most perfect time of year here. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, i got a visit. You out there sometime. I gotta come to oregon. I’ve never been to oregon. Um, i know, i know, but i want to go. I really do want to go pacific northwest. Absolutely. I want to wash. I’ll believe it when i see it. Okay. All right. What do you think this is what you think of this panel of three ladies from it’s? Great. You know, it’s really interesting. And something that we were reflecting on is a staff after the conference to was, you know, it’s, not a brand new conversation, talking about supporting different groups, different communities either in within the inten community, at larger or in the tech sector in the nonprofit sector. But what we’re reflecting on really is the way those conversations i have taken shape and changed over the years, and this last year really felt like this was the ntc where there were multiple formal sessions opportunities like you presented where you folks could come talk, talk to you and have their their stories and their ideas shared more broadly, but also a lot of kind of ad hoc meeting’s at lunch where they would say, everybody come to the table if you want to have this conversation or let’s meet, you know it at the reception tonight and so many conversations about how do we how do we do more to get more people like us or more people like you or more people that know how to do acts? You know, how do we get more people into this community? And i think that’s really exciting and really interesting that that it’s at a place where it doesn’t have to feel like, oh, this is kind of a controversial topic. You know, we’re gonna have to go over here in secret and have this conversation, but that it’s such an open, you know, we really want to create a space in this community that is inclusive and is welcoming, and part of that is creating a great community, but the other part is saying, we have to go out there and make those invitations, you know, you can’t just say, i want to have the best dinner party and make all the food if you haven’t invited anyone to come over, so so i’m excited that the community is kind of at that space where it’s ready to go out there, think about how we’re creating community in inside this space, but also go out and make introductions and invitations and welcome new people in cool. I’m glad so this feels like a watershed year for you and yeah, it’s exciting, and i think it really inspired a lot of staff to feel like they’re not the only ones, you know, getting to see that there’s opportunity to bring more people in, because, you know, staff when when we know that there’s so many community members out there, but we don’t see them because we’re just in the office. I think the ntc really inspire them and reminded them, you know, there are all of these people out there and we can invite more people in it’s going to be great instead of thinking that it’s kind of just, you know, tucked away in the office that’s outstanding, and i’m glad i was a part of it. You feel like it was water. You’re cool. Maybe you’ll have me back next year. Yeah, well, we’ll see. Yes. All right. I’ll see you when i e i’ll believe it when i see it. I believe that recently. So over there at ntc, you get a lot of enquiries about bringing people literally into your organization. Hiring who are technologists? Yes. Oh, so you have some advice around let’s? Start with the the job description. Yeah, i think you know, this is especially the question we get asked the most. You know, we know that we need someone to do manage all of our attacker to help us with our website. But that’s what? That’s what? All that we know. You know, we just know that we need somebody who knows more. Than we dio. So how do we write a job description or where do we even promote the job on dh? So obviously it kind of depends on what kind of job it is it’s a website versus maybe on it, director, managing all kinds of systems, et cetera, but there’s still some some basic steps that everybody can take, no matter what technical job they’re trying to fail, and first is to remember that you don’t necessarily need to know all of the jargon and the acronyms and the web two point oh, everything. What you do need to know very clearly is what your organization needs and what your goals are, who your audience is. You know, if you kind of try to make up for not knowing by filling, you know, job description with a bunch of technical terms, but you’ve never put in there, you know what? We really need our systems that can talk to each other, someone who doesn’t have that integration expertise is not going to apply, they’re not going to know that’s what you’re looking for. So knowing what your goals are, the kinds of tools that may be necessary to meet your mission knowing that and being very clear about that is going to serve you more than, you know, trying to do an internet search for a bunch of jargon. Ok, so so that that’s the first caveat reminder on dh then also, before you start putting that job description together, there’s a great opportunity to talk to everyone inside the organization pull in from from what they know in their own job, you know, what do they need? What what tools are they using that they think need to be updated or and this is not like, oh, there’s, you know, so and so, who just personally doesn’t like this one tool we use not a preference kind of, uh, list, but here’s something that’s really stopping me in my work, you know, here’s something that isn’t serving me to do my job and create a bit of an internal needs versus wants assessment because when you look at that and you can say, will hear things that may be a bunch staff want, but they’re not the priority items of this, you know, kind of three or four things on our really critical needs list that’ll help you. Decide howto prioritize things both on the job description and when you’re looking at applicants. So if you see someone has, you know, a really great experience but saying their most experienced in isn’t on that needs list, you know, it’s it’s like, wow, that’s, greatest really cool project you did once, but not what we’re looking for. It’ll help you feel like you’re not just getting kind of dazzled by all of the shiny things on their resume, but you know what to look for, at least what? To prioritize a cz faras they’re experience or specific skills. All right, so a lot of the information that you need you already have. You just gotta start a conversation inside. Exactly. Okay? Okay. Ah, what? Anything else for the aa for putting together the job description? Well, another thing that i would suggest and it’s not going to be perfect. Of course you’re still going to want to edit it and make sure it’s, you know, meets your needs is an organization. But i’ve seen very few jobs that i have never been, you know, hired for before there’s very few times where someone has posted a job and i thought, wow, i’ve never seen a job like that, you know, i never in my life. So so knowing that you probably could go to, you know, idealist dot org’s look where there are millions of job postings for nonprofit organizations and look for a job, title or job description similar to what you’re looking for and just see how other organizations have explained that or how they’ve kind of structured some of the, you know, needs and an experience pieces there’s probably many examples out there just to get you started, especially with, you know, that fear of had i don’t wantto say this the wrong way, etcetera. You know, it occurs to me this could all apply if you were hiring ah, consultant as well, yes, i was only thinking of, you know, i was only thinking of the employees, but certainly ah, it all applies on the in that respect to consulting. Yeah. And i would even say, um, it applies when you’re bringing in, uh, like i contract id. You know, someone on an r f way. Wantto, you know, designer to dio this project or we want to bring in, you know, an organization? An agency to kind of help us with this campaign, like even those kind of larger than one individual consultant, but still outsourced project still using a process like this because if you can tell them nothing but what you want to dio teo to meet your goals, then you will have at least serve yourself well, instead of trying to anticipate all the things that they might be thinking, you know, you’re hiring either the staff person or this contractor, this consultant because they know more than you on those topics, so let them no more than you on those topics and really be clear about why you want to do those projects, why you need them to do this work anything else around the job description or i think we should move to starting to interview people. Yeah, let’s, start interviewing people. Let’s go. All right, so we’ve got these resumes, and of course, we’re now scanning them based on what our needs are making sure that we’re not we’re not getting attracted by shiny things on resumes that have no relevance to what we’re trying to do and what we’re trying to achieve. Um, okay, we were bringing people in and they’re a lot smarter than us about, about the things that we’re trying to hire them for, yes, we’re gonna do so i’ve seen a few different, uh, tactics work well for organizations that really depends on your comfort level, i think, but remembering, of course, that most often or organizations are kind of small enough that the person they’re hiring, whether it’s, a web person or a night person, etcetera isn’t reporting to another technical person, you know, they’re still going to report to maybe the executive director so not feeling that that person has to kind of opt out of the interview process because they don’t know the language again, they do know what all this work is going towards on, so they still should be a part of this interview process, especially the the manager, whoever that will be. But i would also encourage people to participate in that interview that art are probably not technical, but will rely on this person, you know, ensuring their systems their great, the development or fund-raising manager is often a great person because they maybe our technical, maybe not, but in many organizations they’re the one’s touching. The database the most and if you’re hiring a technical person who, you know, maintaining that data basically part of their job again, they might not be the most technical person on staff, but they probably have a deep investment in this tool, working well for them so that they can do their job. So bringing those people in that really care that the tools work well will help in the interview process because, again, even if they don’t know the language, they will be able to test out what it’s like to talk to this person they would be working with, and if they feel like, you know, they can talk to each other, even if in different languages and still get their points across it’s much better to figure that out and kind of have a feel for what? Talking and working with each other would be like in the interview process than it would be, you know, on day one when they’ve hired, and they’re just getting to meet and realize they can’t talk to each other right versus the she’s kind of condescending to me or, you know, right doesn’t really get me and yes, because you are going to be talking day to day once the hyre is made. So how does the person translate what they know the brilliance that they have in there in their niche of technology to the rest of us who were going to be using this technology and hoping it’s all going it’s all gonna come together and talk to each other? Exactly. And i like that you use the word translate because i was also going to make a suggestion kind of the other side that i’ve seen folks take in the interviewing process is to find someone that’s kind of a translator or ah, liaison. So reaching out either to a local non-technical group, you know, look, look on meet up, there’s. Probably a ton of groups in your city, whether it’s a non-profit tech related group or just, you know, maybe if it’s ah, web person you’re hiring for and you know that you use droop a ll contacting the local grouper droop a ll user group on dh just saying, hey, we’re hiring someone we would love it if we could spend ten minutes on the phone, you know, i was a volunteer from the group just to help us make sure we have the best questions for this interview, and that way, you kind of bounce the questions that you want to ask, you know, shared the intention of the question and had someone who isn’t. They have no, you, no stake in the game. They’re not applying for the job. They are not part of your organization, that they can say, you know, that’s, probably not the best way to ask it. Or, you know, if i was doing this, i would say it this way so that you feel confident going in your questions, meet your needs, and we’ll speak to this kind of technical component. We gotta go out for a way to go out for a break. And, amy, when we come back, we’ll keep talking about maybe testing and and some onboarding we’ll get that in just a couple of minutes. Stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Treyz. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m bill mcginley, president, ceo of the association for healthcare philanthropy. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Oppcoll all right, amy, where? Ah, we’re past the interview stage and ah, we want to well, yeah, we’ve we’ve decided that we want to move forward with a couple of candidates and, uh, test their skills. How are we going to do this? Well, there are a few different options i’ve seen organizations who, when they’ve kind of brought on that translator to discuss, you know, what air the best interview questions that we could craft for our specific a job and organization that they’ve also said, are there some tests that could go with some of these questions or, you know, ways that you would suggest we do this and they get it? It really depends on kind of the suite of skills you’re looking for, but i’ve also seen organizations really successfully say cash, we have this board of directors and a couple of them, you know, workin in larger organizations that have an hr department. Could we ask you to tap your hr department and see if they have a standard set of questions or a standard? You know, couples sets of tests that they’ve used in hiring on dh we can modify those and that way. You know, it’s been used towards success before on dh most, you know, most boardmember zehr happy to say, sure. My h r department will share some of that. Are these are these written tests are online tests. Have you seen i’ve? I’ve seen things where it’s online. It would be usually directly following the interview. So we’ve had the interview. You know, we’ve all been at the table talking, and now, you know, way have ah, laptop set up with this page. And can you, you know, walk us through how you would? Okay, as part of you know, okay, it’s, part of an interview. Yeah, okay. And and that so i would say, even if you don’t have a kind of technical components test, you know, tio assess that side of the skills. One of the most i would i would say important test to include in that interview process is to have identified from your staff what staff consider to be, like, emergency all hands on deck with a technical issue. So for many organizations, that means, you know, it’s, our end of year fund-raising campaign. And the donation page is not working, you know? Donate now. Button isn’t working, we just sent out an e mail to ten thousand people and donate now doesn’t work that’s like critical all hands on deck. This is an emergency, and so in the interview, actually sharing, you know, this would be an emergency tow us on dh staff would would be communicating in-kind of a crisis mode style walk us through if you came into the office that morning, you know, you walked in the door and a bunch of staff were right there and said, oh, my gosh, the donation pages down the donate now button isn’t working. You have to get this fixed right away. What would you d’oh? And if you have a candidate for your job, you know, start coming back with very technical language, even in the interview, you can anticipate that’s how they’re going, you know, talk in that moment and if staff immediately feel like, well, i’m not getting information, i need him, i’m still frustrated, i’m still in crisis mode, i don’t know what’s happening, you know, it’s probably a good measure of what it would be like if instead they’re saying, great, this is exactly what we’re going to dio this is how long it’s going to take, you know, this is when we’re going to be able to know if it’s thick and people feel like, okay, i know what’s happening, even if i can’t fix it, someone is fixing it and it’s going to be okay, you know, it’s it’s an easier way to deal in that actual crisis and maybe a better way to talk through kind of a test quote unquote, in an interview without having to set up non-technical, you know, actual demonstration, okay? You said there were a couple of ways of going about this any any others? Is that it? Is that it? Okay, so let’s say those were probably the most frequent that i see they’re, you know, talking through a situation or including something technical, you know, actually showing them some systems and seeing if they i would say looking that the systems is i’ve at least seen it happen more often when organizations have a little bit more of a custom set up, you know, they’ve done a lot, teo modify their database or they’ve got a website kind of cms that custom to them, and they want to see you know, hey, you probably not seen this before because it’s kind of our set up, why don’t you poke around and let’s see how it goes? We just have about a minute and a half left for for onboarding you have some advice about bringing somebody in? Yeah, i think that there’s this sometimes organizations have this feeling that they’ve hired this technical person because they’re totally different than everyone else, and they’re just going to go sit at their desk and be technical and somehow do everything all by themselves. But ultimately what that means is they’ve never been oriented to what everyone does and why they do it and why they need to be maintaining these systems the way they are. So i would say, onboarding needs to really focus on including this new technical hyre in all kinds of team meetings, campaign meetings, anywhere where they can really be exposed to the way folks, we’re talking about the tools they used, and they’re able tto learn oh, that people don’t know that we could really set up, you know, the database to do that report for them. I can i can help here so they feel. Like they’re a contributing part of the team and not just someone kind of keeping everything running in the background, we’re going to leave it there. Amy, thank you very, very much awesome, thanks so much for my pleasure. Amy sample ward dot org’s is her sight. And on twitter at amy r s ward, she’ll be back next month. Don’t worry next week we have two more interviews from ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. I have a ton of great guests from there. I’m going to pick two more for next week. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com small and midsize shops remember generosity siri’s seven one eight five o six, nine, triple seven or generosity siri’s, dot com our creative producers claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules are music is by scott stein of brooklyn you with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Yeah. They couldn’t do anything, including getting dink dink, dink dink. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get a drink. Nothing. Cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping huntress people be better business people. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun, shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re going invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com you’re listening to talking on turn their network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking.