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Nonprofit Radio for September 25, 2023: Possible Implications Of The Supreme Court’s Affirmative Action Decision


Gene TakagiPossible Implications Of The Supreme Court’s Affirmative Action Decision

Gene Takagi

The Supreme Court’s decision this summer struck down college admissions affirmative action programs. Yet it may have repercussions for nonprofits around employment, contracts, grants, and other areas. Gene Takagi gives us his analysis. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney at NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations law group.


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[00:00:39.45] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d suffer the effects of a parapharyngeal abscess if I had to swallow the fact that you missed this week’s show. Here’s Kate, our associate producer with the highlights.

[00:01:16.40] spk_1:
Hey, tony, we have possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision. Supreme Court’s decision this summer struck down college admissions affirmative action programs, but it may have repercussions for nonprofits around employment contracts, grants and other areas. Jean Takagi gives us his analysis. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney at Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law Group. On Tony’s take two,

[00:01:18.61] spk_0:
an old drop

[00:01:50.07] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers, CRM visit, Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Here is possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision.

[00:02:35.30] spk_0:
It’s always a pleasure to welcome Jean Takagi back to nonprofit radio. I know you know who he is, but he deserves to have a proper introduction. Jean Takagi is our legal contributor and the managing editor of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits that wildly popular nonprofit law blog and is a part-time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neola group dot com. The blog is at nonprofit law blog dot com and Jean is at GTA. Welcome back Jean. It’s good to see you.

[00:02:41.24] spk_2:
Great to see you to tony. Thank

[00:02:52.90] spk_0:
you. I just realized uh we both have red T shirts on. We’re matching today. You’re more for, but you bought a jacket over yours. That wasn’t necessary. Thank you. I’m just, uh you know, I’m, I’m t-shirt and bathing suit because I live because I’m on the beach. So I, I don’t, I don’t put a jacket on. I hope you’ll forgive me. My uh my informality.

[00:03:04.51] spk_2:
It’s a little cooler here in San Francisco. We’re in the mid sixties today. So, well,

[00:03:50.21] spk_0:
not too. Yeah, we’re in the mid uh North Carolina. All right. So we’re talking about the uh Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision and uh the potential for some implications beyond merely college admissions. Why don’t you, why don’t you just set us up with a reminder about that? Uh It was either late June or very early July decision that came out about uh college admissions uh was the um uh the students for fair admissions versus uh the Fellows of Harvard University. And then another case versus the University of North Carolina. So a private university and a public

[00:05:35.84] spk_2:
university. Yeah. So um both cases were treated together and it was um in late June so early this summer um where the Supreme Court came down with a holding that basically said that um in higher education admissions um for uh state universities, uh and for private universities that are state actors and essentially probably because of the federal funding that they receive. Um Well, if they use race um in their admissions policies of deciding who can get in, um whether it’s uh a strict criteria or whether it’s a sort of like a plus factor in rating a candidate’s qualifications that is a violation of the Equal Protection Act uh of the 14th amendment. So the Equal Protection Act basically um says that every person is entitled to equal protection of the laws and that act is applicable to, to governments and state actors. And Harvard uh was brought into the case as an example of a state actor. Um And so, you know, some people were asking, well, how does this even apply to nonprofits? And, well, that’s one way that it applied. And it’s a little unclear about whether something like federal tax exemption. Does that make a nonprofit, a state actor in some cases really haven’t seen that yet, but, um, with the Supreme Court, we’re not really sure, um, what the ties are going to be. Um, but there are all sorts of potential applications for nonprofits that, that people are concerned about. And from my perspective, you know, the decision was fairly disappointing but not unexpected.

[00:07:45.61] spk_0:
Yeah. And, and to just emphasize what you said, you know, we’re talking about potential implications beyond. So we want to raise people’s consciousness about things to watch out for, uh things to watch out for in the news, things to be aware of conscious of, in your own, in your own work, um possibly in grantmaking or, or grant receiving things like that. So, um, yeah, you know, my, uh lawyers are trained to always be learning. You, you never stop learning as an attorney. My uh law school learnings are sort of quickly being eroded by, you know, when I learned about, uh what I learned about abortion protection is obviously, uh no longer applicable. Uh And what I learned about, uh, discrimination, I remember there were, there was benign discrimination like, you know, uh whatever the fishing license or voting or voting or driver’s license laws are in your state, you know, that’s 16 or 18 or 21 you know, whatever it is, that’s, you know, kind of benign. There’s, there’s this, we’re surrounded by discrimination, there’s just, they’re different types. Some are benign and some are invidious, the, the hurtful kind. And then there’s, there was the, uh, sort of corrective or remedial kind which is what, what was at issue around the use of affirmative action in, in college admissions that, that corrective or beneficial kind. And, uh, uh, I, I saw in the, uh, one of the, one of the blog posts that you did at the, uh, the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com. Uh, Justice thomas’ concurring opinion was, uh, oh, no, I’m sorry, it was Justice Roberts, the main opinion, you know, eliminating discrimination means eliminating discrimination, discrimination of all types for all reasons for all purposes. Uh So which is a, you know, a part of the, the holding of the case. So, so has has implications, potential, has potential implications for us.

[00:10:14.49] spk_2:
Yeah, and I, I don’t want to diminish just the impact on, on what this decision just if we look at it in isolation for admissions in higher education, um you know, that has tremendous impact because um even Justice Sotomayor said in, in her dissent, ignoring race will not equalize a society that is racially unequal and like that’s really true. So you can take a look at the, the de demographics and, and you, you can see that there are certain bipoc groups that have um less representation in higher education that can result in less uh income and wealth equality down the road. So there are huge implications of this just in higher education. But a lot of our nonprofit organizations or the bulk of them are not in the education space. And even though they may deal um on the peripheral with, with what the impacts of this decision are on higher education, they may have more direct or may be feeling more direct consequences because affirmative action applies as a defense in other types of cases as well, including uh in the employment context and in sort of um contracting uh cases where organizations enter into contracts with different vendors and whether you can, uh say I’m going to base the selection of a vendor specifically on belonging to a particular race. Um And those laws exist, you know, protecting against discrimination in employment and in contract uh making and enforcing before the Supreme Court holding and that Supreme Court holding didn’t change these cases. But affirmative action was used was, has been used as a defense in both those cases, both those type of claims. So there’s the question now, if affirmative action is no longer a defense in some of the higher education and admissions cases, will they be a defense in employment cases and in the contracting cases? So there are implications for this that are unknown yet. But um the trend doesn’t, you know, doesn’t seem good. And we’re seeing organizations and wealthy conservative individuals who really want to challenge these laws across the spectrum. Um Finding cases to attack um organizations including nonprofits and saying we don’t think we’re gonna allow you to do this again. We’re gonna sue you and we’re gonna test it in court and see what happens

[00:10:41.28] spk_0:
and how many government agencies a, a, at all levels of government have, uh, you know, advantages for minority and women owned businesses, uh AAA preference. You know, you get a, you get a step up, it’s not the, it’s not the end, all, it’s not the sole factor but you get a, you get a, an advantage if you’re a minority and women owned business, for instance, those, those types of preferences you’re saying are now suspect at, uh, at, at, at best, I think

[00:11:29.82] spk_2:
they could be. I mean, so there are specific carve outs, um, in, in the laws that can apply for certain things. But, yeah, you know, even if you know what, if we took justice Roberts at his words, right. That type of program would not exist either. Right. So, um, you know, equal is equal and we don’t pay any attention to historical. Um, uh, we just don’t,

[00:11:51.39] spk_0:
we just don’t pay any attention to history. We just ignore what, what’s happened to minorities and, uh, in the country and, uh, we’ll, we’ll just wait, it’s a clean slate. We’ll just start with a clean slate. Everybody’s equal, which is, which is preposterous, you know, given our structures and invidious discrimination in, in seemingly benign places, uh, which are not benign. And, uh, yeah, we’ll just ignore history.

[00:12:17.11] spk_2:
All right. I so appreciate how you frame that because that goes directly to sort of like the book banning and the, uh, history textbooks in Florida and all of that as well. It’s the same kind of, um, you know, uh, same type of organizations and, and people who are driving those same sort of claims and, and nonprofits have to be paying attention because they could be on the other side of those claims.

[00:12:45.19] spk_0:
Yeah. All right. So let, let’s dig in a little deeper and, and see what uh your, your, your, your concerns are about the potential for uh for problematic areas. Uh Employment, you mentioned employment. What should we, what should we be conscious of, what should we, we be uh looking out for?

[00:15:43.77] spk_2:
So, you know, there have been some, some measures by, you know, some organizations that would do things or, or that that would um with well intentioned goals, I think, say, you know, we really would like to have, let’s say a bipoc leader in place. So, you know, uh you know, with the uh succession planning, if our executive director is leaving next year, we would really like to find somebody who is a bi park person to lead this organization because the majority of communities we serve are bipoc communities. And that might be their rationale in saying we’re gonna go out and we’re gonna look for a bio executive director um to be our next executive director if you’re overtly restricting the hiring of an executive director to specific racial categories, that’s a violation of employment laws. So, title, um, six would be those that are, you know, governmental agencies, title seven would extend out to private employers, including for profits and nonprofits. Um, and there are all sorts of state discrimination laws as well. Right. So if you are, you know, it, if you feel like you can’t say I’m only gonna hire a white executive director, you know, if that feels wrong, you probably can’t just say I’m going to hire a black or a bipoc executive director, sort of by the same token. So, um, that is something that’s just built into anti discs laws. The idea was to help those who are underrepresented and marginalized, um, from suffering uh, to prevent them from suffering from such discrimination. But, you know, some people have called it reverse discrimination now, but those, you know, those same principles still apply, those laws still apply. So if you restrict your hiring and make it a qualifying factor to be, you know, a member of a certain race that would be illegal if you use it as a plus factor, that may be illegal. So saying, well, all things being equal, we’re gonna hire the person of a certain race. So, you know, that’s kind of where, you know, there are some affirmative action defenses in there, um, where we are trying to correct certain systems that might be internal or they might be, um, the product of, of historical, um, problems. Um, and there were affirmative action defenses allowed in that, but I don’t know how strong they’re going to, to be able to, to hold up in light of this opinion. Um, we’ll have to see how it gets tested because it’s, it’s definitely not the same as university admissions. Um, but they’re both, you know, um, facing kind of similar pressures from, from some of the conservative groups who want to attack that as being discriminatory. So we’ll see how that goes in the employment context. But that let me stop there, tony and see if you have any thoughts about it.

[00:16:35.01] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Donor box quote. We’ve seen incredible results with Donor box in the last year. We’ve boosted our donations by 70% and launched new programs in literacy, health, child care and tailoring for our girls. That’s Jennings W founder and executive director of Uganda 10 18. If you’re looking for a fast, flexible and donor friendly fundraising platform for your organization, check out donor box donor Boxx dot org. Now back to possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision.

[00:17:24.60] spk_0:
This could apply to board membership too. It might be a very admirable goal because you serve a bipoc community. So you want your CEO and maybe other senior leaders and your board to be reflective, to be representative of the folks that you’re serving in your community. So it, it, it, it, it’s very it’s, it’s advantageous, it’s, it’s admirable. Um You wanna, you wanna empower folks uh who are among those? You’re, you’re helping? So how do you, how do you then frame this so that you’re, I don’t know, your, your board minutes, your, your board transcripts are, are not uh are not used as evidence against you.

[00:20:16.30] spk_2:
Yeah. So, um you raise some great issues. The first um is um board membership and saying, hey, what if, what about asking for only bipoc board members or black uh persons who identify as black as board members? That’s what we’re looking for now because our board is all white. Um Can we do that? And you have to be careful of tokenism, of course. But um there’s nothing in the laws, any discrimination laws that would prevent that from happening so long as board members are not employees, right or under contract with the organization. So the any discrimination laws are specific to employment. Um Yeah, and contracting, at least the ones we’re talking about today and I don’t know of any that um refer to sort of volunteer board positions. Um that would be protective of that. But um kind of what else you were um talking about is like, well, not all is lost and it’s not like, ok, we’ve got this decision, we’ve got these laws and we can’t get to um solving some of our problems, let’s say our, our white um managerial and executive staff were 99% white males, you know, for us to look for hiring for a little bit of diversity would seem to make sense. Um, but if you tell us, we can’t use it as a plus factor, we can’t use it as a requirement of our next hire. Really hamstrings us. So what can we do? And so the all is not lost theory is saying, well, look to other things. So what you can do is you can encourage applicants who are, uh who identify with particular race groups. If that’s what you want to do, you can encourage them to apply, you can make sure that you’ve got internal systems that ensures that they’re not going to be tokenized. Um, you are going to uh perhaps recruit in areas or from other sources that um uh provide more candidates um that represent the, the groups that you want. So all up until saying you must be of this race group or ethnic group to be considered eligible to be and a higher or we’re gonna give you, uh uh a plus factor where we’re gonna consider your application more attractive because you’re a member of a race group solely for that reason. That’s the problem. But in the admissions case, um in, in the Supreme Court case, they, the, the majority opinion said, hey, guess what? You can’t say race is the factor. But in the admissions essay, if you talk about character that was um shown in dealing with problems that you had specific and

[00:20:24.34] spk_0:
now you now on the individual level,

[00:20:27.38] spk_2:
right? So

[00:20:28.33] spk_0:
not the, not the, not the race or community level,

[00:20:31.37] spk_2:
although race obviously played a factor

[00:20:34.50] spk_0:
in that individual’s life. Right? But exactly, and you can run the level,

[00:21:57.18] spk_2:
you can use that as criteria. So some people say, well, and the, the the majority holding was also clear that hey, you can’t use that as pretext and just say, write whatever you want. And, you know, it’s really just about race, but it, you really ask them to, to, to write something about themselves and if they want to include something about their race and what they’ve, you know, um overcome uh because of discrimination, past discrimination, that may be evidence of character that you can use in your uh in your process. So while that’s not a really elegant solution, and um you know, you can use socioeconomic factors, for example, in the admissions uh policies. Um that’s not exactly the same as race and we’re, you know, trying to deal with race. If that’s what we’re left with, we, we still can use those tools. So, um again, you can use tools and other strategies to ensure that you do get a diverse pool. And that may allow you to find the most, you know, um person based on other characteristics that ends up being somebody um who belongs to a race or ethnicity that you really wanted to, to have in that position in order to um further your de I goals,

[00:22:00.80] spk_0:
anything else with uh employment gene?

[00:22:26.20] spk_2:
Um I would just say employment is probably sort of the biggest risk area. So just be for, for organizations even again, well intentioned and trying to deal with historic injustices, be very careful in the employment area. So, um you know, to the extent you can um try to get legal help, an employment lawyer. And, you know, for those who are in cities that have bar associations with, um you know, volunteer legal services programs, talk with them because I think that this may be a popular area for a lot of local bar associations to provide some, some pro bono counsel.

[00:22:48.21] spk_0:
We talked a little about contracts and, uh and I, I know you have concerns about uh grantees and, and grant tours as well. Uh uh around contracting uh around whether these are, in fact, contracts can we, can we move to, we move to that arena? Yeah.

[00:25:10.46] spk_2:
And, and so, um contracts in general, um all nonprofits enter into contracts, right? Or just about all nonprofits enter into contracts. So the law, um which is uh the federal law anyway, and civil rights laws referred to as section 1981. Uh and section 1981 generally prohibits discrimination in making or enforcing a contract. And that includes any, you know, enjoying any terms uh of a contract as well. So, if you were to again, similar to the employment contract, say we will only hire a vendor if they are a member of a specific ethnicity or race, that’s gonna be in violation of 1981. So probably for, for most people, that kind of makes sense. But we have seen, you know, especially, um I I in the last few years as our social justice efforts have have risen with publicity of like some highly charged events um uh that have been um so terrible. Um uh We have seen movements that said, hey, we really want to increase sort of how we’re contracting out with diverse vendors as well, not just employees. And so people have been saying things like, you know, let’s contract out with more bipoc individuals or more women owned businesses or, um you know, and they’ve been looking at different ways to sort of increase their de i efforts in uh establishing vendor relationships. Um And that’s something now that you have to be very careful about as well. So again, no, just like as in, in the employment context, you can’t have a requirement um or even a plus factor of, of, of saying, you know, if you’re a member of a particular race, then you don’t qualify for this contract or you will not, you, you will be dis preferred for, you know, reasons of, of selecting uh a vendor for, for this contract. Um So how does this fall in respect? I just

[00:25:38.88] spk_0:
before you before you make your, your follow on point. But I just want to remind folks that section 1981 is by no means new. This is Reconstruction Era. Yeah, 18 65 or four or something or probably 55 or 18 fi fi 18 65 or 66 was section 1981 to give freed slaves the all the benefits of contracts and, and, and this is the, the statute even says all the benefits that white people enjoy something like that. It’s in the, it’s in the text of the statute. So this is not nothing new is my point.

[00:28:16.56] spk_2:
Yeah. Um So, well, over 100 and 50 years old now. Um And it’s something that, that you have to pay attention to, again, affirmative action has been used in the past as defense um in 1981 claims, but we’re not exactly sure how that’s gonna pan out, but I, I wanted to give you a specific example because we talked about it or you alluded to it in the beginning about grant agreements. Um And so as lawyers, we kind of learned like what a contract means, right? And it basically is, there are more than one party to a contract and they agree, they make some mutual promises and they each provide each other with some sort of value. Lawyers call it consideration that goes back and forth. And if you have those elements, then you’re in a contract So the question now is, what is a grant, is a grant agreement or contract? Is it two parties? Yes. Are they mutually agreeing on a bunch of terms and things? Yes. Now, is there value being exchanged on both sides? Now, that’s where there’s an issue. So most people think of a grant as a gift, right? We even filed it in our nine nineties. We, we lumped them all in as gifts and grants and donations. And so, uh if a gift, if it’s a gift and there’s not value coming back, then maybe it’s not a contract because there’s not that equal or it doesn’t have to be equal, but there’s not that exchange of value. Um On the other hand, there are like provisions in grant agreements that say, well, you must do this with the grant monies and you must give us results, you know, show us what the results are of those things. And if you don’t, if you don’t use those monies for those things, you have to return it to us. Um And, and those terms start to look a little bit more like contract terms, right? Are we making a gift for a restricted purpose, which is very valid argument or are we making a payment to get something done? Not for maybe for the funder but getting something done out in the community or producing something because the funder wants that to happen. So really they’re paying for it and you’re delivering it. Is it more like a contract or a gift?

[00:29:09.98] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kila increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kila. The fundraiser, CRM maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser. CRM goes beyond a data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals. Like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two

[00:30:19.98] spk_0:
long time listeners. Oh, thank you, Kate. Thank you. Long time listeners will remember that this show used to be in a studio in New York City because I used to live stream the show every Friday. I’m pretty sure it was Friday at 1 p.m. from 1 to 2. And then from then I would start my weekend. Uh, and Sam Liebowitz was the producer of the show. He owned the studio where we used to do the show every Friday afternoon. And guests would come to, ideally, they would come to the studio and Sam had the idea of putting some what are called drops into the show and they’re, they’re uh essentially commercials. But for the show, it’s like, it’s like a testimonial. We would call it a, a testimonial for the show. And this is one of the uh early drops that, that we used in a bunch of shows, Sam inserted into a bunch of shows he would put them in, in postproduction. Let’s see if you, uh if you recognize anybody in this

[00:30:26.62] spk_3:
lively conversation, talk, trans, sound advice. That’s tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. And I am his niece Carmela and I am his nephew Gino.

[00:30:40.30] spk_1:
How about,

[00:30:42.31] spk_0:
can you recognize anybody in that?

[00:30:44.18] spk_1:
That is so cute. We sound so tiny. That’s

[00:30:50.43] spk_0:
you and your brother and Carmela. I, we have this strange thing going on now because on the show, I always call you Kate but off stage or off mic, I, I call you Carmela, which everybody else calls you Kate. But I use Carmela because I think Carmel is a beautiful name and that’s your, your name is,

[00:31:07.81] spk_1:
it is a beautiful name and I’m very thankful to have it. It’s just a really long name. If I’m writing like my name on a piece of paper for school, it’s just, it’s too long.

[00:31:17.78] spk_0:
OK. Three syllables versus one. So all the, all the rest of the world, all the rest of the family uh and the world uh could use just one syllable Kate. I go with Carmela uh off, off mic. But so I think, uh you know, I think you sound like nine and Geno seven or so. He’s two years younger than you. To me. You sound like around nine and seven.

[00:31:40.58] spk_1:
You you might be right. I was thinking more 12 and 10, but I really don’t remember how old we were. But I, like, remember sitting in the dining room, you setting up the microphones and having a headset and being like, wow, this is so cool. I’m on my uncle’s podcast. Like this is the coolest thing ever.

[00:32:00.01] spk_0:
Yeah, I had the, I had brought my audio gear mics and headsets for everybody. Yes. Absolutely. This is, this is no 2nd, 2nd rate two bit operations.

[00:32:08.82] spk_1:
No, no, no, this is perfect.

[00:32:15.36] spk_0:
Absolutely. Non profit. We were sitting here your dining room table. Yeah. In your, yeah, in your, in your, is that, was that in, in the current home or was that the previous

[00:32:20.20] spk_1:
home? Yeah, I think this is in, it was in the current home. It

[00:32:55.91] spk_0:
was ok. Ok. You remember that? All right. Yeah, I don’t know. I, I should have a date on the file. Uh, but II I can’t find what date it was. Uh, you know, it’s, it should be dated with at least a year, but I, I can’t find that. So, Kate and Gino and I am your, I love that and I am his niece Carmela and I am his nephew Gino. So, all right. Do you know from the old days, uh when Sam Liebowitz at the studio used to put the drops in, uh for me in, in postproduction. So, anything else you remember about that?

[00:32:59.55] spk_1:
I remember, like trying to put the dogs in the crate so they weren’t running all over cords and stuff. Let

[00:33:21.71] spk_0:
the dogs out. Who let the dogs out. Right. Exactly. All right. Um, so that’s a, that’s an old, an old drop from the, from the olden days. Well, I, I still have to see if I can find out what year that was. All right. But, uh, thank you. And that is Tony’s take too. Go ahead, Kate.

[00:33:30.53] spk_1:
We’ve got just about a boat load more time. Let’s go back to possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision with Jean Takagi.

[00:34:13.79] spk_0:
Sounds like a good idea. And what you’re, what you’re delivering may very well be a promise you or you’re, you’re promising to deliver you. The grantee are promising and a promise has value, promise can be that exchange, that consideration. So it can be an exchange of money from the gran tour and promise from the grantee. That’s, that’s value. Again your point, not necessarily equal. They don’t have to be equal. They, they can even be Demi on one side. So promises are valuable and can be that exchange of consideration that you’re saying is an element of a contract.

[00:37:42.76] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s, that’s right, tony. So, um I don’t think we’ve seen this litigated, so we don’t really know what the argument is gonna look like when we have an idea of what the argument will look like. We don’t know how, how the court would treat this. Um, we’ve certainly seen kind of demin value in other extensive contracts being enforced and saying, well, that’s good enough. Um, but there is kind of this long history of grants being recognized as gifts and federal and state laws saying that, hey, if you’re going to make a grant or gift, this is a charity to another organization. You have to have some steps to ensure that it’s actually being used for charitable purposes and private foundations have even more laws. Um uh that, that say you have to exercise expenditure responsibility, which all sorts of due diligence procedures and provisions in the grant agreement itself that must be included in order to make a gift. So, is that contract or is that just saying, hey, comply with the laws so we can make this gift to you? So, yeah, there’s some more nuanced academic arguments that, that, you know, people can make about this, but we’re starting to see the attack, right? So we’re now starting to see people go, hey, um on a contract. Um if you, if you’re making grants and you’re saying these grants are only to buy pock led organizations or black led organizations, that’s not uncommon, right? Tonya, I think we’re seeing quite a bit of that. Um now that can get attacked and where it could always have been attacked. But I think the Supreme Court holding has shown that, oh, if you want to attack it and somebody were to raise it up the appellate level to, you know, to, to the Supreme Court level. Um or appellate courts might just say defer and say this is so much similar to the rationale in, in the, the students for fair admissions case that we are going to just say um that this is a contract and this is sort of a a violation of 1981. So that’s kind of the, the concern there with grant agreements is, is, are they contracts, are they worded like contracts? And you know, maybe one of the steps that some grantmakers can take if they want to be careful about that, um is to try to um make more unrestricted grants and not have so many conditions that tied tied to the grant. So not so many promises coming from the other side, right, tony said to, to sort of minimize um what the value might look like that’s being returned, but still sort of complying with the laws um that require that the grantees spend the money properly. Um So one strategy anyway, there are going to be others and um I don’t want to discourage people from, you know, looking to make grants to buy pock led organizations, but they have to be careful on, on how they worded. And so just like with the employment context or the admissions context for that matter, it’s recruiting your vendors from different places, you can really seek to diversify the pool of applicants that come because it could be very um unequal in how we’ve approached vendor relationships in general, which might be just friends of board members or, you know, um people we already know or do business with and that might be the same people that have always done business um with the organization when it may not have been so focused on de I so

[00:38:36.66] spk_0:
very narrow narrowing. So, right, Con raising consciousness. Um and I, I feel like talking about contracts, we’ve ventured into a little bit of uh nonprofit radio law school about uh consideration and the bargain for exchange. But we did it, we did it in simple terms. I think so. Uh but everybody gets a uh everybody gets one cle credit for listening, this uh lawyers, you get one continuing legal education credit for listening to today’s uh this episode. Um Any other areas. What, what, what else, what else concerns you uh uh about uh discrimination and, and places where we should be conscious.

[00:40:03.97] spk_2:
Um So I’ll, I’ll give you maybe just a couple more examples of some dangerous areas or areas of concern and then I, I’ll try to end with something a little bit more positive. Um So on, on the concerning area. Uh in Missouri, the attorney general there directed all colleges to immediately stop considering race and scholarships. Um So, um not that wasn’t admissions based but just on scholarships. Um Lots of nonprofits need scholarships and fellowships for that matter. And, um, and other sorts of, uh, grants to individuals? And are those kind of now going to be attacked in some states in Missouri in Kentucky? Uh, the university’s president suggested that his institution should do the same thing, the, um, the Kentucky University president. So, you know, this is going around, um, the same person or organization backed by the same person, um, who funded the fund, the, the, the lawsuits in the affirmative action cases also. Yes. So they’ve also attacked um uh the Fearless Fund, which is uh an equity fund that was um aimed at helping um uh bipoc entrepreneurs think that was based um in Georgia. I’m not positive about

[00:40:20.00] spk_0:
that. Say the name of the fund again,

[00:42:24.24] spk_2:
Fearless Fund. So it’s not a, not, not a nonprofit fund, but it could have been, but it was looking to, to um specifically uh raise equity um for, you know, by uh led organizations or businesses. Um And that’s being attacked, same group also attacked two law firms for fellowship programs that were targeted at, at bipoc um individuals and, and raising diversity as part of their DE I program. So you, you can probably see all of the um just the, the, the statements um and the rhetoric coming out uh about um de I programs and, you know, some people attacking DE I programs in general, that’s, um you know, on the positive side, um that’s de I programs are not attack kind of all in general. Um, can certainly have a goal to increase diversity, equity and inclusion. Um That certainly can be a value of your organization and eliminating prejudice and discrimination is a valid 501 c three purpose in the regulations. So all of that is to, you know, it is to say there are ways to deal with some of the bad news that are coming out of the court systems. Um and laws that I don’t think are very good for, for racial justice and social justice, there are ways to deal with it. They’re not perfect. Um And will continue to find ways to advance racial equity and social justice. Um But you want to make sure especially for organizations that can’t, you know, afford to be on the forefront of, of saying, hey attack us, we want you to take us to court and we will, you know, fight the battles for you. Um You know, like the AC lu and the Nation League and like those that are experienced and have resources to be able to handle that type of litigation. You just have to be really careful that you’re not attacked and that, you know, defending that um diverts all of your resources away from getting the, the job done for your beneficiaries that you want. Um And so to, to really be careful of that,

[00:42:57.62] spk_0:
but i it’s important to underscore that these are still very valid and accepted charitable purposes. The, the reduction, elimination of discrimination, you know, elevating, elevating uh uh people of uh uh lower, you know, uh uh underserved populations, et cetera. I mean, these are all, these are all still very valid charitable purposes.

[00:43:51.02] spk_2:
And yeah, I, I would encourage funders to double down on their efforts to help these marginalized groups and organizations that are helping these marginalized groups. Um because um they may not all have the resources to be able to fight uh off uh other groups that, that decide that they want to attack. Uh some of the things that they’re doing and helping to educate um organizations as well, really, really helpful. So for community foundations and other capacity building organizations that are giving advice to, to nonprofits in general, yes, there are some organizations that can sort of take the courageous ground and uh take risks um with respect to some of these issues. Um But there are other organizations that, you know, really their beneficiaries are reliant on them to continue their service services. And um they just have to be a little bit more careful and if it just takes a little wordsmithing um to be careful in their documents, then, you know, they can really be helped by that

[00:45:45.33] spk_0:
interesting point about, you know, scholarships too because they’re, they’re so widely used. Uh you know, it’s not just their own, my, my sense of the, the race based affirmative action, affirmative admissions was that, you know, that’s at, uh, schools that have the luxury of getting, you know, maybe hundreds of applicants for each spot or something. You know. So they, so they were, uh, previously, you know, had some spots designated, um, to put it simply, but scholarships are at probably every institution, regardless of how many applicants they get per, you know, how selective they can be. Scholarships are, are so widely used. So, it’s, it’s not just large institutions that, you know, it’s, that, that’s another instance of it, you know, trickling down, uh to, to smaller institutions, the implications trickling down. All right. Uh Did you want to leave us with something uh uplifting and, and uh positive? Well, now we, we, you know, we did say these, these are still valid charitable purposes. Don’t abandon your work. We’re not, you know, we just, uh, I, I invited Gene to raise consciousness. You know, you need to just be more alert now than, uh, than you were. Uh, although, as we said, section 1981 has been around since the 18 sixties. So that, that’s, there’s nothing new around the, the contracting conversation but uh Gene, we, what do you want to uh, leave us with something even brighter than that?

[00:46:37.96] spk_2:
Well, there have been some foundations that have been doing really good work, um, and um individual sort of um donors who have really been supporting the efforts of racial justice and social justice organizations Um, and they are saying that this is a bump in the road. Um, and they will find ways to continue focusing, uh, on advancing their racial justice and social justice goals. Um And I’m hoping that sort of, everybody who believes in those goals continues to, like, really be supportive of them and helping, uh, others who are in the same, uh, sort of have the same set of values to, to deal with these bumps that we are experiencing in the road with, with some of the Supreme Court decisions and finding ways to move forward. It’s not time to sort of move back or just become completely defensive. It’s time to act and act in a, in a way that, um, sort of continues to advance uh what we want in our country and in our world

[00:47:46.85] spk_0:
in, you need to read and subscribe to his uh nonprofit law blog where he’s the editor and uh, follow him at G tech. And if you need the services of an attorney, uh, should your clients need to be in California? No, they don’t need to be in California. No. Right. Jean. No, you have, you have clients, you have clients nationwide. I know that I never, I withdraw that question because I know the answer. If you need help with uh the law and legal issues and you’re a nonprofit organization, I would unqualified, suggest you look at, uh Neola group dot com doesn’t matter where you are in the country. Thank you very much, Gene. Always a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts

[00:47:51.60] spk_2:
so much. Appreciate it, tony. Thank you. All right, bye

[00:47:54.84] spk_0:
till next time.

[00:48:04.13] spk_1:
Next week, Brian Saber returns with his new book fundraising for introverts. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I

[00:48:07.30] spk_0:
beseech you find it at Tomm martignetti dot com.

[00:48:53.10] spk_1:
We sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity Donor box, fast flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kiva. The fundraisers, CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:49:00.00] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for April 10, 2020: Turbocharge Your Grants Fundraising

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My Guest:

John Hicks: Turbocharge Your Grants Fundraising
John Hicks returns with 9 steps that will burn the tires off your grants program. He’s principal and founder of DLBHICKS, LLC consulting. (Originally aired February 23, 2018)




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[00:00:13.74] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:58.80] spk_4:
radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Lissa if you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show Turbo Charge your grants fundraising. John Hicks returns with nine steps that will burn the tires off your grants program. He’s principal and founder of De LB Hicks, L. L C Consulting. This originally aired on February 23rd of 2018 feet Land last week was grantmakers relationships. See how you see how it all ties together. This show is so heavily produced on tony Steak, too. I’m channeling You were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com Not heavily produced. Not just that, but expertly produced but Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here is John Hicks.

[00:01:27.42] spk_3:
What a pleasure

[00:01:27.86] spk_0:
to welcome back John Hicks. We

[00:01:29.85] spk_3:
believe this is his third time on the show c f r EE principle

[00:01:42.64] spk_0:
and founder of De LB Hicks, a consulting firm providing fundraising and grant seeking guidance to nonprofits from grassroots to global. His

[00:01:42.84] spk_3:
career spans over 30 years.

[00:01:44.81] spk_0:
He’s on the faculty of Columbia University’s Masters degree in non profit management, teaching grant writing, and he’s a lecturer for Rector’s University’s Institute for Ethical Leadership. He’s at de lb Hicks and de lb hicks dot

[00:01:59.05] spk_3:
com. John Hicks Welcome back to the studio.

[00:02:01.62] spk_5:
It’s great to be here.

[00:02:06.51] spk_3:
My pleasure to have you d l B D L b All we keep. Here’s deal be I love the story behind Deal Be Tell it

[00:02:15.34] spk_5:
Sure thing L B stands for Dylan’s lightbulb, as in Bob Dylan. Um, years ago, I came across a copy of D. A. Pennebaker’s great documentary Don’t Look Back, Bob Dylan’s 1965 tour of the U. K. Early in the film, Dylan’s getting off the plane at Heathrow Airport in these walking of this press conference, carrying a large light bulb, and he’s getting asked all the innocuous questions, you know, Are you folk? What is your message? And someone asked me, what is your message is my message. Keep good head. Always carry a light bulb.

[00:02:45.65] spk_3:
And I thought that

[00:02:47.27] spk_5:
was probably about the best piece of advice I’ve ever heard in my life. And I adopted is a personal mantra. And so when I launched my own firm, I said,

[00:02:57.98] spk_3:
You know, I’m gonna

[00:03:03.74] spk_5:
work. Deal, be into this. Get the light bulb in there. And that’s t l B. If you go to the website, you can learn a little more about that incident.

[00:03:05.82] spk_0:
And the home page has ah lightbulb image.

[00:03:09.19] spk_5:
It has a light bulb. Do

[00:03:10.77] spk_0:
we know why Dylan was carrying, like, both Do we know

[00:03:13.05] spk_5:
this day? And no one knows, I think is the typical Bob Dylan thing where somebody handed him a white bombings like this is cool.

[00:03:20.55] spk_0:
Or maybe it’s not, but I’ll make it cool. Okay.

[00:03:22.74] spk_5:
They’re identical radio.

[00:03:24.83] spk_3:
All right. Um, glad to have you back.

[00:03:27.36] spk_4:
I love it. You can come to studio all the time. Wonderful.

[00:03:29.48] spk_5:
Yeah. It’s great to be here.

[00:03:32.04] spk_3:
Um all right. So you got you got these nine

[00:03:42.74] spk_0:
tips for Ah, um, Turbo charging. You know, kicking up your grants program to the next level. Um, and you’ve got some advice that coincides with the panel that was on last week when I moderated at the Foundation center. Right? That’s cool.

[00:03:57.02] spk_3:
Um, so let’s I mean, let’s Ah, let’s let’s let’s overview first. What are what? What do you

[00:03:59.39] spk_0:
feel like? Non profits just generally are not getting quite right. Man, you got nine tips here about things that not profit should be doing better. But

[00:04:08.34] spk_3:
just eyes the thinking, not right around grants.

[00:04:10.60] spk_0:
I mean, what what generally, what could we be doing? Smarter. Thinking better differently about Grant What grants wise?

[00:04:18.64] spk_3:
Well, I was

[00:04:19.22] spk_5:
looking at grants is being the kind of philanthropy that brings to things to the table for a charity they bring. A grant will bring you cash and those rings you cachet. Okay, so it’s, um

[00:04:30.19] spk_0:
thank you. Somebody else’s supporting you that they believe in your work. Exactly. If you non profit radio sponsors. Yeah,

[00:05:35.37] spk_5:
you got it. And the thing about getting grant funding is that you go through a more of a due diligence process, which means that if I’m able to go to AA donor even if it’s an individual donor and say I have a grant from this foundation, of that foundation, and particularly if it’s a pretty well known foundation. Um, it says to that person, Have you been through due diligence process? And so I think First of all, it’s getting non profits to think about what part does a grant or grants for a grants program play in their philanthropy? And, um, also, I think it’s the heart of the nine steps to turbo charging your grants outreach. It’s It’s all about rethinking your agency. It’s like rethinking your story. And how do you use that to engage foundations at a much higher level? And I think I’ve always said that any charity could do this. I mean, it is This is not just large charities. I think grassroots charities.

[00:05:38.16] spk_0:
We wouldn’t be on non profit radio. This is all really for the $1,000,000,000 endowment and above.

[00:05:45.52] spk_5:
You got it? Okay.

[00:05:46.10] spk_3:
No, no. For sure they can. And that’s that’s why that panel

[00:05:48.51] spk_0:
was so valuable. Last That was last week. Yeah, I think there was

[00:06:15.68] spk_5:
a lot of discussion about this. I mean, if you if your listeners go back and listen to that, um, that podcast again, I mean, you’re gonna hear these grantmakers talk about the importance not only of engagement, but it’s coming in with a story in a vision for where your organization’s going next. And if you can get them to buy into that direction, you can not only get a grant that you could maybe could get a sizable grant or an impactful grant.

[00:06:20.91] spk_0:
And that term grand. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, changing the conversation. Okay. And you’ve got ideas on that coming up. You know, thinking long term versus immediate and what’s recurring costs, etcetera. And what’s growth costs we’ll get. Okay,

[00:06:34.29] spk_3:
so that’s a so the 1st 1 you have, um, focusing on

[00:06:37.64] spk_0:
the right, the right kind of money Thio ask for

[00:07:03.23] spk_5:
right. I think it’s understanding where your organization is in not trying thio under reach or overreach. So I think the important thing is I see a lot of charities come in and say, You know, I’m under feeling under a lot of pressure from my board or the staff that I have to go for the gold swing for the fences and get gates may not be the right fit for you. It’s choosing the part of the donor pool. You want to swim in a CZ I’m find of telling clients, Um, and the other part of raising the right money is making sure that you’re not getting money that sets up expectations that you can’t fulfill. This is another thing I run into is a consultant is walking in the door and seeing a lot of grants literally lying around where the agency is struggling to fulfill the promises made. But they just weren’t able to bring the rest of the money. And so it’s making sure that you’re driving the bus. That money is coming in to support your priorities and what you do Well,

[00:07:34.04] spk_0:
yeah. Um, So what? What causes this? This gap is it is not adequate planning on the part of the part of

[00:07:42.38] spk_3:
York. It can

[00:08:16.02] spk_5:
be inadequate planning. But, you know, I’m also fundraiser, and I acknowledge that a lot of us were there a lot of pressure to produce. And so it could be that, you know, we have boards. We have bosses. Who are you asking us to go for this grant? That grant. And, you know, you’re just you’re in response mode. The nine steps, I think get us back into doing this proactively so later in our conversation will talk about things like a strategic agenda and envisioning. And that kind of helps us, you know, move the ball forward, but close

[00:08:18.04] spk_0:
this gap between expectations and and reality. It’s

[00:08:22.04] spk_5:
usually you said it better than I did, tony,

[00:08:24.16] spk_3:
Uh, most guests say that. So don’t be surprised what this point out

[00:08:30.06] spk_0:
is that you’re surprised that I Okay,

[00:08:30.40] spk_3:
hold that thought.

[00:08:54.44] spk_4:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner. You each tomb and affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits and nine nineties under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now more of turbo charge your grants. Fundraising.

[00:08:58.44] spk_3:
Let’s go back

[00:09:10.90] spk_0:
to John and turbocharging your grants. Fundraising. Um, yes. So we’ve got ideas coming up that are gonna close this gap. Basically, um, let’s see

[00:09:14.48] spk_3:
what you want. Talk about next.

[00:09:15.84] spk_0:
What do you uh you You You you go.

[00:09:18.09] spk_3:
What? We

[00:09:19.80] spk_5:
were talking about visioning, and maybe we should talk a little bit about gold setting because I think that’s it

[00:09:24.46] spk_0:
certainly related to what we’re just talking about. If you don’t, you don’t have the goals right Then the expectations are gonna have that gap between what you asked for and what they’re expecting,

[00:09:31.52] spk_5:
right? So, um, a

[00:09:33.39] spk_3:
lot of

[00:09:59.98] spk_5:
cases gold setting stops at raise more money and you did last year. Our costs are going up. Here’s where the costs are going up, and that’s pretty much the end of the conversation. And what I’ve come to find out over time is that the organizations that seem to do a better job of getting money on the grant seeking side are the ones who think about their goals into categories. There’s, um, sustaining goals, which is essentially what are carrying costs just for the operations and carrying constant program. So we still need to bring money in to make sure we keep the doors open. We’ll keep doing the essential work that we do best. But then there’s another set of goals which relate to investment. So I call these investment goals and I only think of it is you put money in, you’re going to get a return on it, and we’re going to do something a bit more than you know we’re doing right now. So when the operation site he could be staffing, it could be strategic planning could be capacity building and never on the program. Inside, it’s all about creating new programs and growing new programs for growing the programs that you

[00:10:40.45] spk_0:
have. So this carrying costs versus new investment, right? Um,

[00:10:46.08] spk_3:
it’s It’s not This is not, Is not

[00:11:17.71] spk_0:
the same is short term versus long term Now I think it’s because carrying costs could be long term correct, Right? It is it those air like you’re basically your overhead eyes that fair or now nobody’s that’s program its program to write its programming. It’s just feel free to say you’re wrong. I’m not gonna shut your Michael. Uhm, we re very rarely Occasionally we do, but I won’t let you. So uh, okay, so it’s not that right. It’s, um it’s you You’re forced to think long term. If you want to make this type of, you know, new investment kind of asks,

[00:11:54.83] spk_5:
right? Exactly. I mean, I know another way of putting this Is that sometimes, you know, I, um yeah, I’m so privileged to meet incredible people who were working miracles with small amounts of money. They come in with a fairly small, modest program. But when you look at what they’re doing, they’re making some pretty deep meaningful change in people’s lives. And sometimes I’m so blown away by what they’re doing with limited resource is I’m I look at them and say, You know, if you’re doing this on a shoestring, imagine if we had the shoe. Yeah, she was all about the investment grand. Where do we go next? And how do we take this? And either deep in it are are make it bigger,

[00:12:06.00] spk_0:
look atyou extending the shoestring metaphor. Hey, So smart. Okay, So insightful. Okay, no friends if we had to shoot. All right. All right. Um, but now this. You know, there might be a fear of putting the putting the potential funder off, because now we’re asking for more money. And if we’re looking for this new investment kind of money,

[00:12:25.01] spk_3:
we’re not gonna

[00:12:25.59] spk_5:
put a thunder off by asking for more money. If the money has a purpose. I mean, think about it this way. I remember

[00:12:31.64] spk_0:
this sounds important years. They’re not gonna put a funder off by asking for more.

[00:12:34.74] spk_3:
I don’t think something. Yeah, I Years

[00:13:07.02] spk_5:
ago, I heard Abigail Disney talking to a group of non profits at an event here in New York City. And something she said was that she says, Yeah, I have a lot of money and I’m a philanthropist. But without you, my money means nothing, because I don’t go where you go. I don’t do what you do. I don’t see what you see. When I find you. You become my ears and you become my eyes and you become my hands. And

[00:13:07.42] spk_3:

[00:13:07.75] spk_5:
organization can be part of that

[00:13:18.48] spk_0:
picture. That’s why, don’t you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So ask for what you need, not what you think will be approved. As for

[00:13:20.21] spk_5:
what you need, what

[00:13:20.89] spk_0:
do you think you’ll get

[00:13:48.71] spk_5:
and and and ask for funding that’s going to get you to the right opportunity. So I always feel that philanthropy is about the possibilities, what we’re able to do next about opportunity. I remember once I had was working with an organization here in the city and the CEO was taking a grantmakers through the building and showing him the program and talking about program growth. And halfway through the visit, the thunder looked at the CEO and said, Look, I know you’re going to be coming to me with a grant proposal. Just make sure you ask me for enough money to do what you need to do. So you don’t have to come back and ask me again.

[00:14:04.84] spk_0:
Yeah. All right. They want to be asked for yesterday. Right? Uh, tony with foundations.

[00:14:11.47] spk_5:
Remember, we’re dealing with the donor constituency that’s in the business of giving money away. Yeah. So let’s help them do their jobs,

[00:14:28.46] spk_0:
and they want to do it right? They don’t want it. Ah, half cocked. And then, like you said, you know, a request to come back, uh, having to come back in 18 months because you didn’t ask for enough. Right? That looks bad because you look at your not about you. Not a good

[00:14:38.32] spk_3:
planner then. And you did the best you

[00:14:39.44] spk_5:
can. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances, but you have put some thought into it. And I think you know most of our listeners. I’m sure do this, so yeah,

[00:14:46.98] spk_0:
well, we’re making sure that they will. Now,

[00:14:49.47] spk_5:
there we go.

[00:15:01.84] spk_0:
I’m glad you said our listeners before you says my listeners and, uh And then you kept talking, so I let it go. But this time you said our listeners are Our listeners are our listeners, right? Pronouns non profit radio. Uh, we should make that a takeaway on to make that my takeaways. Okay. Um, all right, so we have carrying costs versus new investment money. Now we have sustaining grants versus investment grants. What it’s supposed to do You want us to be thinking about these? What does this mean,

[00:15:20.50] spk_3:
Right, So it’s thinking about yourself in jail. It z it’s

[00:16:13.52] spk_5:
sustaining Great. It’s the stating expenses, investment expenses and then the you have to think sustaining an investment grants and the way you write these things are a bit different. I mean, sustaining is essentially you’re making the case in the proposal, the application for why we need to keep the doors open and keep doing what we’re doing. And I think these grants get driven by results. Here’s what we accomplished last year. Here’s what we have the promise of continuing to do this year with investment, grand proposals. You’re talking about kicking it up a notch, and you know where we’re going next to me. Here’s the roadmap here. The opportunities. This is why we’re trying to grow a program from $100,000.150,000 dollars. And the idea is it’s investment. I’m asking you to put money in with the promise. Or at least I’m the best of my ability. I’m promising that we’re going to get some stronger results. And so it’s, I think it’s a little the way the proposal gets presented it. It’s probably a little bit different in terms of some of the language and some of the presentation. Perhaps.

[00:16:23.16] spk_3:
Now, this sounds

[00:16:23.64] spk_0:
like some some of what was talked about in the panel. Ah, that we have had on last week.

[00:16:40.31] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah. You had a number of the grantmakers he talked about, You know that you have to not only just come in and show us the opportunities, but, you know, you have to show us that you have Ah, I’m going to use the metaphor of road map. You have an idea of how to get from point A to point B and why my money’s gonna make a difference. One of things. I talked to my students a lot about in the class at Columbia. Is that

[00:16:52.61] spk_0:
Yes, Professor. Go ahead. Sure you’re the sugar wisdom. You’re not a

[00:16:55.87] spk_5:
professor. You know, they we talked a lot about risk mitigation, which is maybe an odd thing to talk about in a class on grants. But

[00:17:05.28] spk_3:
the end of

[00:17:33.84] spk_5:
the day, a lot of what we’re doing for donors, just for major donor, you can do it for foundation is your mitigating risk. You don’t want the donor to feel that they’re putting a lot of risk on the table when they give you money. So in what we’re fortunate in the world of foundations as we can, right? A thoughtful grant proposal. Make a nice presentation. I can show you how to get from point A to point B so I can give you Exhibit A. So

[00:17:49.90] spk_0:
now subsumed in this by the way, road map, isa Fine, metaphor. Just you don’t go to automobiles that drive on roads, because then I won’t fall. You know, Like I said, I think the intra my first experience with a Phillips head screwdriver was very bad. So you can imagine me with a set of ratchets or whatever those things are called. Um,

[00:17:55.48] spk_3:
this sounds a lot like the Arno subsumed

[00:18:15.49] spk_0:
in this, though, is the thing that I get asked a lot of I hear a lot about it. Should you ask for overhead support in your in your grants and subsumed in all this is is a definite yes, right? I mean, you gotta keep the lights on. You keep salaries paid my approaching Mr Right

[00:18:16.31] spk_3:
way. What you are. I

[00:18:37.51] spk_5:
mean, that’s a question that comes up quite frequently. Is that do Foundation’s fund overhead expenses? I think First of all, there’s ah, there’s, ah, misguided notion that foundations don’t like to pay for overhead. There’s a few foundations who don’t, but most of them understand it, and they get it. Um, I mean,

[00:18:37.95] spk_3:
me that’s essential. These essential, essential expenses.

[00:18:40.24] spk_5:
They are essential

[00:18:41.44] spk_0:
to carry out the program if I can’t pay my rent.

[00:18:43.51] spk_5:
Exactly. And And the

[00:18:44.64] spk_3:

[00:19:00.59] spk_5:
is, is that what what I I find sometimes is that when you really start looking at the costs and the expenditures from from an organization and how they’re supporting their programs, you find that expenses that are categorized as overhead or administrative or not I mean,

[00:19:02.78] spk_3:
I work

[00:19:11.96] spk_5:
with a lot of grassroots organizations. Were the CEO is coming out of her office, and she’s working with kids. And she’s working with families. Well,

[00:19:12.21] spk_3:
she’s not overhead.

[00:19:33.41] spk_5:
She’s actually also direct program. So, um, you know, I mean, first, you can’t have toe really hold your budget up to the mirror and say, you know, is this truly accurate? I mean, you know, there’s a lot of hard work and CEO is out there, especially in grassroots organizations where they’re essential. And so there are probably more of their costs. Might be included in a program budget for a grant proposal.

[00:19:45.14] spk_0:
Hard working for sure, we know that. Absolutely. Um, yeah. So

[00:19:47.94] spk_3:
Yet, uh, you got

[00:19:53.93] spk_0:
any client story that comes to mind? Like we’re you know, they were thinking low and you encourage them to think bigger. And they ended up being successful. Maybe they didn’t get every dollar they asked for, but they got something bigger than you. Bigger than they were initially asking for.

[00:20:05.75] spk_3:

[00:20:06.18] spk_5:
I mean, and, uh,

[00:20:10.69] spk_0:
I should hope so. I put you on the spot. It never happened. And then we cut the mikes.

[00:20:13.64] spk_5:
No, absolutely

[00:20:14.61] spk_0:
not. yours. You cut mine. Well covered like

[00:20:23.10] spk_5:
Well, first of all, I just tryto look, it goes back to the light bulb. You know, I just don’t you you know, I’m just I’m just simply illuminating what’s in front of us a lot of times, and I find that I have probably any number of stories where working with a client and all I have to do is show them that this foundation could give more money and they said, Well, G, I think I have these opportunities and get them to think of three. Or like, Hey, I think I’ve got something. I could take the foundation

[00:20:44.74] spk_3:
and they do a

[00:20:45.24] spk_5:
fabulous job of presenting an engaging the thunder. Maybe I’ve you shown them that opportunity, but at the end of the day, you know I want to give credit where credit’s due. My my current clients raise good money because my clients are really good. Smart people were doing great work

[00:21:00.03] spk_3:
collaboration. You’re also contribute modest, surprised to find

[00:21:04.18] spk_0:
a modest professor. There aren’t too many of those, and I said no, professor, but I’m going to

[00:21:07.63] spk_5:
start a band called Modest professed

[00:21:11.50] spk_0:
It’ll be D L B everything in your life is deal be about the ball. Yes. Modest Professor deal

[00:21:59.13] spk_5:
bu But he asked me a specific example. I mean, recently I was working with I am working with ah, wonderful charity on DDE. They help kids with cancer. And you know what? What was really great was they had this wonderful opportunity to apply for a grant from a major national foundation and they had a great contact. And I think the early conversations was about a fairly modest create, maybe $10,000. And when we said that really looked at what the opportunity iwas, um you know, what could this charity do you expect with shoestrings, like 10,000 bucks a shoestring? And what’s the shoot that she turned out to be $50,000. So we worked up a proposal at $50,000 the upshot is the foundation funded. It is that they felt like it was a really good investment for their money, and I think they’re probably gonna be happier Giving the $50,000 seeing what they get is a result.

[00:22:12.46] spk_3:
Look, just in case

[00:22:13.16] spk_0:
any of our listen, my voice just broke a 14 year old voice. Christ, get out! A case

[00:22:20.64] spk_3:
of our, um uh, any case. I mean,

[00:23:14.25] spk_0:
Elizabeth, it’s just have to be your first show. I mean, there’s over 12,000 of you, so, you know, maybe some people come. I guess every week we get new additions if you want to. You know no more about the nuts and bolts the relationship, building specific strategies about that. You wanna listen to last week’s show because that was a panel from the foundation center that I moderated. And there’s a lot of discussion. That’s what we were based on. That old discussion was how to build your relationships with the with program officers, foundations, foundations are made up of people. So that’s, you know, like certain decibel John and I today our, um, more higher level, enormously valuable. And there’s all this strategy and planning and gold setting thinking through what you’re gonna ask. This is enormously relevant to. But last week was Maur detail, I guess nuts and bolts on the relationship building here today we’re in Baltimore, strategic and high level. You

[00:23:23.27] spk_3:
see how the show fits together. You know that people think this just comes. It doesn’t just happen. This thing is planned out

[00:23:33.37] spk_0:
contrary toe the belief of 12,000 people listening. But it is planned. So I just got lucky this week and last week. S

[00:23:36.02] spk_3:
O okay, you have measures

[00:23:49.44] spk_0:
around some of these things. You have measures for each of your 99 strategies. Um, this one is just simple. What? What’s the ratio of sustaining grants to investment grants? So we want to see Maur, I presume?

[00:23:52.77] spk_3:
What? See Maur investment grants, right? Thinking longer term and you’re going to grow your organization and its its capacity. Well, I’m actually

[00:24:28.29] spk_5:
trying to look for a healthier balance. I mean, um, yes, if I have a fair if I have a good core of sustaining grants first, Well, it says I have people who are renewing. Okay, so they like, I mean, think about foundations like subscribers. They love the program and they’re continuing to support a year over year of a year. That’s a that’s a great sign. But am I also bring in? You know, a good number of investment grants that kind of kid again and kick it up a notch and get meatloaf every night for dinner. But if I give him the topping on it every once a while. I mean, it gets more interesting. So there you go.

[00:24:52.04] spk_0:
Okay. This is a vegan show, so that was a bad metaphor. Uh, I just made that up just to embarrass you. Um, now, listeners, you can have anything you need, anything you want out of care for your overall lacto, You know, whatever. I belong to the park slope food co op, but you don’t have to. Um, yeah, eat whatever you like. Um,

[00:24:55.82] spk_3:
okay. Make sure you have the right grantmakers

[00:25:00.20] spk_0:
on your list. Okay? And

[00:25:00.82] spk_3:
and this sounds to me, this

[00:25:02.25] spk_0:
one sounds a little like it’s coordinated with your goals. You want your goals and your and the people, the organizations you’re asking for money from to be consistent. But you can say it more articulately than I can. I

[00:25:15.00] spk_3:
know what I mean

[00:25:24.70] spk_5:
by that is do you have Do you have recognized leaders supporting your program? I mean, um, if I just giving example, I work. I do a fair male work in the youth development world. Worked with various charities who do wonderful work here. And if they want to bring a new program online. Sometimes where my research starts and this isn’t terribly scientific, but it’s

[00:25:42.02] spk_3:
I look

[00:25:42.37] spk_5:
at. Well, who

[00:25:42.81] spk_3:

[00:26:06.75] spk_5:
the top 10 foundations funding this kind of work? Say, in New York City or in whatever community, Wherever you’re between your work, can I lend three of them? Can I bring three Thought leader foundations who work in this space to the table and have them funding my project? That’s that to me, that’s the right set of funders. I mean, that’s that helps me with my focus. So I’m not chasing money all over the place.

[00:26:11.40] spk_3:
Yeah, this is very strategic thinking.

[00:26:16.34] spk_0:
No, you’re not. You’re not just looking for foundations that support the work you do, but specifically, you know, some of the leadership foundations. Yeah. I support you.

[00:26:24.13] spk_3:
One of the

[00:26:24.71] spk_5:
things that about that panel discussion which I thought was so great I moderated. I think it was. Thank you. It was artful. Thank you. It was all thank you’s absolutely

[00:26:37.55] spk_0:
Thank you. I thank you again. Thank you very much for that. Thank you. The

[00:26:59.14] spk_5:
Thea it was just sit. There was so much conversation about partnership. I kept hearing it word over and over and over and over again. And I think foundations are looking for really good charities to partner with. And we should think about that on the set in reverse, like, Well, which foundations, though? I want partnering with me on this work that I’m going to d’oh! And that helps toe open that conversation makes the conversation natural. And it makes the proposal flow. I mean, were there for a reason.

[00:27:14.14] spk_0:
All right, Um, John Hicks, I got to, uh, ask you to hold on temporarily because, uh,

[00:28:50.81] spk_4:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software, Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that you’ve heard me talk about. They understand you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two. I’m channeling you small and midsize nonprofits each week. When I heavily produced expertly produced the show, I’m channeling you the listeners in small and midsize non profit. I’m thinking about who are the best guests What are the best topics when I get a guest and I’m thinking about talking to them. I’m thinking What? What do you want to know? What? Um, what is going to be helpful to you? Toe, bring a discussion item to your supervisor CEO board. Um, toe, have a discussion within just within your office. Um, sometimes it’s action steps, things you can do. What? You know, I’m drilling down with guests. What can we be doing? Not just thinking about, but what can we be doing? One of the first couple steps we need to take. So, uh, I always am just thinking about what you want to know. And that’s why I’m channeling you. Always small and midsize, non profit where our listeners are where you are. Um,

[00:28:51.25] spk_3:
I say a little

[00:28:59.99] spk_4:
more about this on a video which you will find, as always, at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony. Take two. Now back to turbo. Charge your grants. Fundraising with John Hicks.

[00:29:11.97] spk_3:
Back to you now. John Hicks. We’re gonna get this. Keep terrible. Charging. All right. Oh, that was your That was your word. I decided I would use it. A lot of times.

[00:29:15.24] spk_0:
I don’t. I’ll use what guests, uh, recommend that the log topic says or what? Their article says that I like, but

[00:29:22.17] spk_3:
I I thought,

[00:29:23.01] spk_4:
you know, it would

[00:29:30.49] spk_0:
be adventurous. Let’s go with turbo charge. All right. I made an exception for you. Thank you, tony. My pleasure. Um,

[00:29:31.80] spk_3:
let’s move on. So did we say everything? Well, we see everything we want to say about the right grantmakers before we move way.

[00:29:38.16] spk_5:
We’ve, uh We’ve started with goals that didn’t leave. We’ve kind of looked internally. What do we need to do by way of list? Bill Building. Now, we’re gonna start talking about some external things.

[00:29:48.22] spk_3:
Okay? Okay. So that’s what you want to talk about.

[00:29:51.43] spk_5:
Well, we start with the next one, which is building your V. Q.

[00:30:00.19] spk_0:
Vic, you get us out and get yourself out of drug in jail. What’s that? And define your

[00:30:55.05] spk_5:
visibility question. Yeah, which is, you know, is what it is. He I mean, the idea is that you want to be visible. I, um I think that grantmakers don’t I work in a bubble. Sometimes we think that you know, grantmakers, they sit in their offices and they kind of stay in their on their side of the street. We stay on our side of the street. The reality is that a lot of grantmakers air just out there and looking. They’re very aware of our community of practice and they get to know who we are largely by our just being out there and being visible. So, you know, any time I’m working with a nonprofit organization and the CEO gets out of his or her office and they go to events and they are in the press and they are writing and they’re speaking and they’re publishing and they’re advocating grantmakers get to know them And I think that counts. And I feel that a part of that quote unquote turbocharging um process

[00:31:05.27] spk_0:
thesis turbocharging to the ground. Now we’re

[00:31:19.81] spk_5:
not gonna beat it to program. A part of it is, the more you’re out there and you’re raising the visibility for your mission and your agency in your work, the better it is for you. I mean, it helps you with framing your grant proposal and who you are and what you’re able to dio

[00:31:23.79] spk_0:
credibility. Is that very good? There was another word for this credibility, but that will be your CQ. But you prefer Vik, you we’ll be secret. Well, it could be CQ, right? All right. I don’t want to write your block post anything, all right? And

[00:31:36.66] spk_5:
it could be fashionable. B g Q. So

[00:31:40.10] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Uh, that would be your

[00:31:44.96] spk_3:
grandson. Your grants quotient there. Um, now, a lot of this came out

[00:31:46.84] spk_0:
in the panel from last week. People we were talking a lot about networking being visible in the community. Going to events? Yes. And you start to get known essentially what? Same as you’re saying,

[00:31:58.49] spk_5:
right? And and, uh,

[00:32:00.01] spk_3:
the only

[00:32:07.81] spk_5:
maybe new once I’d throw on this is that I mean, there’s there’s visibility. I

[00:32:07.95] spk_3:
like the thing

[00:32:31.84] spk_5:
about visibility with content. And what I mean by this is you can go to parties and goto events, and you can meet people. But what do you leaving them with? What impression are you making? And so some of the things we’re gonna be talking about such a CZ. You know, your strategic agenda where your organization’s going next part of is having a story to tell someone when you meet that grantmakers, here’s here. We are. Here’s the opportunities that are in front of us. Love to come and talk to you more about it. So you know you’re peeking their interest.

[00:32:56.32] spk_0:
Yeah, for sure. You you want to not only be visible, but you wantto have credibility behind that content behind that. You wanna make a good first impression? Imagine how good it would be if if a funder got your application and already knew your name knew the organization name before they, even when the application arrives right there. Knew in advance. Right, Because you’re in the community. And, of course, being in the community includes the the online communities, the online network. You want to build your vic, You there as well?

[00:33:14.98] spk_5:
Absolutely. I mean any. You know, the way I look at it is the when your proposal shows up in the foundation’s office with a bunch of other proposals. If

[00:33:19.85] spk_3:

[00:33:47.44] spk_5:
heard of you, they’re going to pick up them. The look on their going to read the letter. They’re gonna read the proposal. I can’t pretend that doesn’t happen. Yeah, there’s a wonderful book which I have my students at Columbia read every semester by a guy named Martin ty tell which is the insider’s guide, the grantmaking. And it’s a great behind the scenes look at the grantmaking process. And, um and he talks about things like this. I mean, you know that. You know, if we know something about the organization, it doesn’t hurt.

[00:34:02.58] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Have you ever seen where a foundation approached? A Ah, a potential fundy Ah, non profit and asked

[00:34:06.71] spk_4:
for a asked for a proposal.

[00:34:48.94] spk_5:
I was sure it happens all the time. Does I think it does? I think that, um um particularly the foundations who hire professionals. I mean, think about this way. Part of your job when you work for a foundation is to make the board of the foundation smarter about what’s going on in the world that they’re being asked to fund in. So if you’re out there, if I work for foundation and I get to know something about the work of your organization, I might pick up the phone, call you and say, Hey, I want to learn more about you. Remember, one of my clients just got a call from a foundation. Pretty major foundation was any longer radar screen. They just called out of the blue and said We’ve been hearing about you would love to come and talk to you Have to stand. Absolutely.

[00:34:50.54] spk_0:
Wasn’t on your radar screen? No. Does that mean you’re doing defective research? Inadequate? No,

[00:34:59.04] spk_5:
No, this is Theo. This is actually a donor advised fund. Okay, that’s that’s a whole nother

[00:35:00.19] spk_0:
time. Can’t find Yeah, those air, those air buried What? Their funding is very, very hard to find. Yeah, it’s not. It’s not public, really. It’s not anywhere, is it?

[00:35:09.35] spk_5:
It’s really not

[00:35:19.90] spk_0:
now. Okay. All right. No negligent research by deal. BX make that clear. Make that explicit. They do not do negligent research. Okay. Um

[00:35:20.95] spk_3:
okay. Strengthening your network. This is very

[00:35:27.34] spk_0:
much related. Strengthening your network, um, strong foundation. And you know grantmakers Air are there doing this? You want to be wanted again? You won’t be out and and known in the community.

[00:36:45.47] spk_5:
Yes, it might be a question. You know, I would be asking this question, which is? Well, what’s the difference between your visibility quotient and the network? Well, a network is actually taking a role of X and all the people that you’re meeting and all the people who are supporting you and beginning to reverse engineer it a bit. You know, one of your Panelists on the show last week and talked about or gave a great example of. Well, if I’m funding you, I could introduce you to other funders. And that happens more frequently than that was a good conversation. Oh, absolutely. And it makes a lot of sense because usually a, um think of it this way. Foundation, once they’ve written the cheque and their supporting you there a stakeholder they have a vested interest in seeing you bring other money to the table to build on what they’ve helped you to creator to grow or expand. And there’s nothing wrong with working that in reverse. You know, just a strategy, a tip for everyone, and I’m seeing this work is tthe e get a fund or get one of your grantmakers. Ask them to host some kind of a gathering where you can come in and talk about your work and what you’re seeing as a result of your work or talk about a topic. Were they inviting to this? They’re usually inviting grantmakers, whom they know because they want to help you get your story out there and get people to know you. I mean, it’s not a solicitation. You’re gonna be handing out pledge cards

[00:37:01.29] spk_3:
on the individual side. It’s the same is like a parlor Gather.

[00:37:07.31] spk_5:
Exactly. Exactly. It’s you know, uh, it’s always better in the parlor. This is usually the board room, but

[00:37:10.78] spk_0:
well, yeah, because it’s institutional, But there

[00:37:12.96] spk_4:
are parallels

[00:37:13.73] spk_5:
you get.

[00:37:14.30] spk_3:
Don’t don’t Don’t hurt

[00:37:22.27] spk_0:
my analogy. I mean, I went along with your metaphors. Metaphors and analogies are important. Yes, I adopted your terrible judgment metaphor. So, you know, you certainly couldn’t support my analogy.

[00:37:24.74] spk_5:
I’m totally supporting her nails.

[00:37:26.17] spk_3:
It isn’t involved. It’s analogous ball. That’s what makes it an analogy

[00:37:29.46] spk_5:
of all is

[00:37:30.83] spk_3:
okay. Um, yeah. So you’ve seen this work you’ve seen? This absolutely wonders will do it. It’s common. It’s more common than you think. I I think merging Throw tip now. Well, you know,

[00:37:41.79] spk_5:
beyonc? This is This is a pretty old school approach. Mean they were doing it then. They felt they stopped doing it. Mean grantmakers, then Now they’re doing it again. Um, I think the the key to making this happen is being ableto walk in with a presentation that has really information. It’s not just a come meet my agency.

[00:38:03.08] spk_3:
I think this

[00:38:03.82] spk_0:
is what’s happening in this area. Yeah. In this fund, in this priority that we know you’re all funding, right? Here’s what we’re seeing. Here’s troubles we see coming in the future. Here’s opportunities. Yeah, right. It’s sort of analysis. Like a market announce.

[00:38:27.62] spk_5:
Yeah, exactly. Euros. Every positioning yourself is a thought leader. You know, I have information for you. I have some best practices for you, and they can get a good conversation going.

[00:38:45.18] spk_0:
Okay. I love that. Okay. Uh, yeah. I don’t think my right, it’s not. I don’t think a lot of people are thinking that way. It’s great and approach to approach your funders and ask them to, uh, to do it. Okay. So

[00:38:45.41] spk_3:
what’s your measures

[00:38:46.12] spk_0:
for that one for strengthening your network?

[00:38:48.40] spk_3:
I mean, the measures

[00:39:06.94] spk_5:
I have here you have any meetings with colleagues or potential donors that we secure? I think a big part of it is Did you get out of your office and go meet with your grantmakers? Did you did you meet with colleagues? Did you? Um Hey, how much did you use that role of X and the other is, you know how many potential grand tours that we add to the network.

[00:39:11.77] spk_3:
That’s the

[00:39:25.88] spk_5:
other thing, too. Is is you can meet grantmakers and not ask them for money. But you can get to know them, add them to the network. Maybe the timing isn’t right. Maybe you are not ready for a billable of the Gates Foundation grant. That doesn’t prevent you from getting a no program Officer Gates mean. Maybe they can’t give you money, But maybe they can suggest other people. You can talk to me. I find a lot of its disappearance. Simple networking.

[00:39:35.29] spk_3:
What would your

[00:39:38.74] spk_0:
follow up B to, ah, to an event like that? Eyes the non profit that presents

[00:40:13.30] spk_5:
what’s interesting. I just had a conversation with a client before camp here for the show. I’m aware that I heard about what we’re talking about about that well, years, years, years, sketchy, very deep. Don’t don’t underestimate I I am not underestimating you. Slice it. It’s essentially they’re producing a white paper on one topic, and they’re gonna use that as the follow up to an event. So they’re gonna have some grantmakers in the room and they can follow up with content, so demonstrate how good you are. And there you have it.

[00:40:14.96] spk_0:
Take a break. Indulge me for a break momentarily, please.

[00:40:37.96] spk_4:
It’s time for our last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news you need to comment on so that you stay relevant. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for turbo charge your grants. Fundraising.

[00:40:42.12] spk_0:
Now’s time to finish up with John Hicks and turbocharging the metaphor that I very graciously I think adopted. John. John doesn’t acknowledge that grabbed the graciousness, but But I acknowledge it for myself.

[00:40:57.31] spk_3:
Okay, um, have we exhausted? Oh, and then you had one more

[00:41:01.03] spk_0:
measure for strengthen your network. How many potential grantmakers? No, you did say that. How many do we add to our network? And they were talking about the follow up. See, that’s my trouble Cone and coming back. Um, follow up. Anything more to say about content Paper seems like a very good idea.

[00:41:20.11] spk_5:
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, just come out. Come back with something that would be useful to the thunder. And, um, yes. Sometimes we So the grants starts with not asking for money but giving the thunder something that they can use.

[00:41:36.21] spk_0:
Okay, for sure. Giving them? Yeah. You’re a team player. You’re adding value to the community, right? That we’re all funding. Okay, You got build a bigger footprint. What is this all about?

[00:41:40.56] spk_3:

[00:42:34.94] spk_5:
a bigger footprint is, um think about two things. One which is can I take the work that I’m doing and how my leveraging it leveraging means either working in partnership with another organization or being a resource to another organization? Uh, I made that you provide the kind of service is your charity does, tony. But maybe you were able to refer kids or families to me, and I can help. Well, that’s building a bigger footprint. Another way of building a bigger footprint. Could be working on a consortium product project. Excuse me. And another way I think about is deepening the impact of what you’re doing. I mean, I’ve worked with a lot of organizations where they may work on a program where the maximum number of kids they conserve might be 50 60 70 is less than 100 kids. But if they’re able to provide a deeper level of service, that’s expanding the footprint because they’re going to get stronger results and it becomes a demonstration site and, ah, place toe test out. Best practices. So you’re changing the conversation. It’s not just a program. It’s helping 70 kids. It’s It’s actually working in a very deep and meaningful way.

[00:42:53.40] spk_0:
This is related to one of the earlier points. It was the 1st 1 that investment in long, long term investment type. Grant seeking.

[00:43:00.74] spk_5:
Exactly. Exactly. So. I just think it’s you leverage as much as you possibly can.

[00:43:07.38] spk_0:
Well, you just rewarding these things that you could come up with nine. You know, it was you had seven. Like you had six, and then you weren’t satisfied. That seemed weak. So you had There are little

[00:43:16.77] spk_3:
different. They are a little different. I don’t want these padded.

[00:43:20.05] spk_5:
They’re not padded. I guarantee they’re not.

[00:43:27.36] spk_3:
Um, we’re on you here. You know, we don’t We don’t accept Aah! Slack content

[00:44:33.99] spk_0:
on non profit radio. No, we don’t have that here. We never have. Except that one time we did the show on on, um on? Ah, fermentation. Oh, yeah, that was That was that was bad content. I thought I thought we’d try something completely unrelated, Which was in the podcast world. Big mistake. But I learned immediately fermentation in the middle of the guests. That wasn’t even happy. But I I couldn’t shut him off. I didn’t have a heart. I invited him. It was my idea. Okay, Fermentation. That was bad content. But that was one out of 377 shows. This happens to be shown over 377. So you could forgive 11 377th actually. And then if you count the number of guests, I mean, lots of shows have two guests, so, you know, we’re up like, 800 get r, and then some have four guests. So were over 1000 guests. So, like, one out of 1001. 1000.1 That that 1 1000? Yeah, that’s not 1 10,000 10.1 Is that one? 1000. Did that felt that is 1 1,001,000 So 1 1/1000 of the guests being slack. You should stick with no prob radio. It’s a safe bet.

[00:44:36.43] spk_5:
I’m gonna do all my budgets.

[00:44:38.29] spk_3:
That was

[00:44:50.79] spk_0:
a small digression, but, um, yeah. Now you don’t want to be doing numerical analysis. I didn’t even know I wasn’t sure. What? The 0.111 1000. The two interns in the room looking it up. They haven’t even answered it yet. Um,

[00:44:53.09] spk_3:
I need an intern. I need an intern if everybody I need somebody to blame for this. So So you know, the 1 1000 I need something

[00:44:59.51] spk_0:
to blame on that blame that on. So if you if you can suggest if you know anybody want to be an intern for non profit radio, have them come have them send a resume, because I need somebody to blame. Um,

[00:45:10.77] spk_3:
let’s move on to Ah. Oh, now we get into the thistles with strategic agenda. You’ve been teasing this all show strategic agenda. What is it?

[00:45:18.37] spk_5:
Well, strategic agenda is, um

[00:45:20.99] spk_3:
I don’t

[00:45:21.69] spk_5:
know if I’m among the only one uses this term, but

[00:45:25.35] spk_3:
I mean, it’s just basically

[00:47:03.57] spk_5:
being able to say to a grantmakers, here’s where we’re going the next 18 24 36 months. And here’s where our focus gonna pee. And here, the most important things that we need to be doing to make a significant difference in the world. Um, I mean, you could say strategic plan, but whenever I say the word strategic plan, clients inevitably think, well, are we looking at going through a six month, nine month process of planning and introspection? Sometimes they’re just doesn’t time to do that. And what I’m just trying to come up with is, you know, if you met a grantmakers tomorrow and you want to try toe, have a conversation to get that grantmakers a really interested in possibly giving you money, I’d like to be able to not just say, Here’s my mission statement. Here is the work we’re doing. It’s wow. Let me tell you about the opportunities we have. We’re going to be doing a, B, C, D and E, and you had a number of grantmakers on that panel going back to last week’s show who talked about. It’s better not to come to us with just one idea, asking us to find it, because I mean, when the panel said what if you pitch the wrong thing to me and I say no, then the conversation stops come to me with a general overview of what you’re doing. So yeah, walking with a general overview. But the way you I think undress this up is to say, Hey, here’s where I have some opportunities to accomplish some really exciting good for people And whatever the time horizon you’re working with getting 12 18 36 whatever the number of months and you could piqued

[00:47:04.22] spk_3:
their interest, how do you prove that

[00:47:11.47] spk_0:
the money would be well spent? Because it’s it’s all it’s all perspective.

[00:47:57.15] spk_5:
Well, if you’re gonna put anything up a strategic agenda, you you have to have your hands around the numbers like, you know, right now, I mean, think of one client where they’ve launched for fairly new initiatives in the last year. And those initiatives air showing promise. They’re working in some challenging communities here in New York City. They know their numbers. They know how many families they’re working with. They know how many kids and adults are impacted. They all said no how much they could grow this program if they were able to bring in enough money. So their story if we meet any funders that you know, we’re working with 9000 people across four sites. We know we have the ability and the opportunity to work with 15,000. Our budget is X. If we’re able to raise it toe, why we can make this happen?

[00:48:02.13] spk_3:
That’s a

[00:48:04.27] spk_5:
pretty powerful story. So? So, grantmakers. Maybe that’s a good use of your money.

[00:48:06.62] spk_3:
Excellent. Excellent. John’s giving. You think he just He just wrote you

[00:48:10.77] spk_0:
a template for ah, one paragraph. You got expand on that. You got what you need. You need deal. Be hicks to help you out. So

[00:48:20.47] spk_3:
all right, let’s go to our last Ah, our last

[00:48:20.89] spk_0:
of the turbo charging strategies. Know where you’re heading next?

[00:48:39.54] spk_5:
Yeah. So it means the end of this strategic agenda. Yeah, it’s like essentially, yeah, this gets us in the long term. Do we? Do we have a long term story for our agency or do we It’s you know, if we’re able to go from A to B in the next 36 months, but just kind of looking out beyond the horizon, you know, this is where we think we’re going next.

[00:48:47.72] spk_3:
This is

[00:49:15.96] spk_5:
the part of a conversation with a grantmakers. Andi. Even sometimes it gets evidence with the application of proposal that proves to grantmakers that you have a clear understanding of who you are, where you’re going, where you sit in your field and that you have a You have a realistic sense of scope, and I think that’s awfully, awfully important. You’re able to do this and you engage in a different level than you get the money and you turbo charge.

[00:49:17.87] spk_0:
Oh, John,

[00:49:24.93] spk_3:
look, Look the wrap up, he does. You see that? Look at that, huh? And you turbo charge. All right, we gotta leave it there. He’s John Hicks, c f r ee

[00:49:28.20] spk_0:
You’ll find him at de lb Hicks and deal be hicks dot com. Deal be, of course, Don’s lightbulb.

[00:49:35.57] spk_3:
Thank you very much, John Hook.

[00:49:36.99] spk_5:
Well, thank you for having me on

[00:49:38.30] spk_0:
real pleasure having you back. Thank you.

[00:50:13.29] spk_4:
Next week. Be a disrupter with Chris Field. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Coca Mountain software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot c e o. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff.

[00:50:15.23] spk_3:
Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is

[00:50:25.35] spk_2:
by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. That information Scotty Do

[00:50:26.98] spk_3:
with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

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Jessica Meister, Matt Dragon & Justin Greeves: Avoid Website Ageism
How do you design your site to meet the needs of those 65 and over? What about testing with seniors, and accessibility requirements for federally-funded nonprofits? Our panel answers it all. They’re Jessica Meister with Oral Health America; Matt Dragon from Charity Navigator; and Justin Greeves at Porter Novelli. (Recorded at the Nonprofit Technology Conference)



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Janice Chan and Danielle Faulkner cover the basics of researching and submitting grants. They reveal free resources to find out what’s available, share tips on tracking deadlines, help you prepare for online submissions, and more. Janice is with Johns Hopkins Institutions and Danielle is from Baltimore Community Foundation. (Also recorded at the Nonprofit Technology Conference)


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into foley dupe aqua if you questioned why you shouldn’t miss today’s show, avoid website ageism how do you design your site to meet the needs of those sixty five and over? What about testing with seniors and accessibility requirements for federally funded non-profits our panel answers at all. They’re jessica meister with orel health america, matt dragon from charity navigator and justin grieves at porter novelli that was recorded at the non-profit technology conference also grants for newbies. Janice chan and daniel faulkner covered the basics of researching and submitting grants they reveal free resource is to find out what’s available. Share tips on tracking deadlines help you prepare for online submissions and mohr. Janice is with johns hopkins institutions, and danielle is from baltimore community foundation that’s also recorded at the non-profit technology conference. I’m tony steak, too thank you. Responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio and by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers witness cps. Dot com and by tello’s turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tello’s here is a void website ageism welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference. We’re coming to you from new orleans at the convention center all our ntcdinosaur views are sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits this conversation is with jessica meister, matt dragon and justin grieves. Jessica is the web user experience specialist at orel help america. Matt is director of engineering at charity navigator and justin greaves is senior vice president of research. Porter novelli jessica justin welcome, thank you for having welcome to non-profit radio your workshop topic is i’m not the dinosaur. You’re the dinosaur. How your website should keep pace with america’s aging population okay, let’s, start down the end there. Justin, who thinks i look like john mcenroe? He he spilled performance that happen. But i remind you of john macro at least at least happy. Yeah, right now. Not the tennis racket slamming john macaron? Not yet. I haven’t gotten there yet. Yeah, yeah. Don’t give me cause, okay? What what’s the issue here, justin way, talking about websites that are built specifically for senior population, like sixty five it over or accessibility of all websites for the for the elder population? Yeah, yeah, i think i think one or the other, but we’re taking a step back from that and looking at everybody and really looking good. How in my part of the presentation, how people are accessing information generally in society and looking at that websites are a part of that news is a part of that social media is a part of that radio shows are a part of that, right? So seeing how those different audiences by age or by other characteristics are doing things online, are getting information. So we really took a broad view about toe understand that, and there are a couple of interesting trends that we found in our research. Porter novelli we do an ongoing program called styles, which is abroad be of americans lifestyle okay, we’ll get into the research. Remind me if i don’t get teo. I don’t know about research company. Okay, sametz what what’s your sense of this. How do you want to open up the topic sure. So charity navigator biggest user percentages is sixty five and over. And if you lump in fifty five and over it’s really a majority nineties, we in ninety percent, ninety percent, probably around eighty percent. Ok, seventy five percent. So we we have a lot of those users. As i covered in the presentation. Over seventy five percent of our donors to us are seventy five are fifty five and over. So that that’s something that we’re constantly considering in our website design communicating with our users and our donors. Okay, jessica, you’re our user experience specialist. And what what? How do you want to open this topic for the elder population? Eso my belief is that technology should be for everybody, and it shouldn’t be limited to just young people, um and that’s on all of us to create technology and websites and designs that air usable by every single person. I think. It’s a negative stereotype that older adults seniors above the age of sixty five don’t use technology and it’s absolutely not true. Both justin and i have found plenty of research. That is completely metoo contrary. Okay, thank you for that. All right, not. Now that i’m sixty five, i’m approaching now, but, uh, i’m not even in the face, you know? I am in the fifty five over. Yeah, i am in that one, okay, i did remember what i want to talk to you about the research, so i want i do want to start with in terms of how thie older population is using data differently using is using technology differently. Yeah, please, just beyond, i think justcause point it’s ah it’s a myth and it’s a long held belief that older people are behind in technology and don’t use things but what we found in our styles, research that i mentioned before is half of people in the silent generation that’s, age seventy two and above have a smartphone mobile device that they’re using and half half seventy two and over half of our subs on dh in boomers, which you’re you’re, you’re a boom here, boomer young, i’m young, you’re young boomer. Yeah, almost genetics are seventy five percent of boomers have smartphones and that’s the primary way that they’re accessing all sorts of things. News your radio show information about websites e-giving donations online so you got to think about the population, which the vast majority of givers of high givers are also older people. You’re not going to be as effective if you’re just still mailing them stuff, right? They need thio interact and access just the way we all do, and they want to do it on the whole device. Mostly. Okay, okay, you want to add more to the research summary? That’s ah, pretty fair summary. So justin’s work has been primarily in quantitative data and looking at it from, like a sky level view. Getting these good statistics on what usage rate looks like. My work has been more qualitative when you actually sit down and interact with have a senior interact with either a website or a tool or technology, you asked them to use it, completing a particular task, and, yeah, the vast majority of them are wanting to do it on mobile as well. And especially from a non-profit perspective, it’s important to keep in mind that sometimes the on ly access someone may have to the internet is, in fact, on a mobile device. They may not have the means or access to like a desktop computer, and so that was something that we found in our research when we redesign tooth wisdom dot org’s, which is a website designed to provide education and accessed older adults to dental clinics, affordable ones in their area. When we did this study, we found that they really wanted to be able to search and that they may be doing this from a mobile device. Yeah, okay, okay, and in the middle, matt at a charity navigator, what was your part in the presentation so way have this predominantly older user base, but we’re also seeing a lot of growth in the twenty five to thirty, twenty four to thirty five year old user community that we’re seeing, so we’re struggling, too make angels to the site that that appeal to a younger generation, but not turn off or lose our older users in the process. So we have a lot of a lot of sort of feedback and help type questions that we get from older users where they just aren’t used to interacting with with websites like younger generations are on dso we’re always trying to sort of factor that in as we make changes to the site or or consider how we present information on the site. It’s. Time for a break pursuant. Their new paper is the digital donation revolution. I always love all the pursuant free resource is very generous. How do you keep up in our one click to buy amazon world? Can you use more revenue? The paper has five proven to work online. Fund-raising tactics that will save you money. It’s on the listener landing page. Of course. Tony dahna slash pursuing radio now back to avoid website ageism. There’s another layer to this two, which is the federally funded organizations. Yes, by law that required, you have to have accessible, abide by and it’s called section five o eight and it was voted on and passed through congress last year, january twenty seventeen and it just went into effect january eighteen o and this is any organization that receives any federal funding whatsoever, regardless of if it’s one hundred percent or if it’s two percent they receive any federal dollars whatsoever, they’re obliged to adhere to accessibility guidelines there, primarily based on the w keg, which is the world wide web consortiums, accessibility, content and six ability guidelines. Okay, thank you for question that. Because we have george in jail on tony? Yes, i apologize. You just walk in front of the prison? No. Yes, i wanted teo put it out there because it’s it’s an important resource. So it’s w c a g and it’s finding online. You see a g? Yes. Okay. Okay. So, so any any federal money, you’re getting grants for service or whatever, but anything at all and the critically this law applies to not just your public facing website, but anything that you use internally as well. So even if it’s just in internal that on ly the other staff members see all the only your millennial staff is using correct yes, it’s pretty burdens. Yeah, so it’s it’s pretty it’s pretty massive. But this is especially critical to seniors and older adults because forty percent of people above the age of sixty five have some sort of disability compared to twenty percent of the general population. And so, if you’re did, if you’re designing for seniors, you’re designing with accessibility in mind. Okay, dahna let’s. See where should we go testing you? So you do the individual testing. So your roll. Justin is more than quantitative research. About bigger, bigger picture recent yeah, my role in the presentation was sort of the higher level trends and another another thing that we all talked about in all near and dear buses, the impact of social media on things you know, we hear a lot about facebook and twitter and linked in and other things nowadays. And so again, there’s another myth that, well, seniors aren’t on technology and they’re definitely not on social media, which is absolutely false also good. The majority of seniors are on some form of social media, most likely facebook, and so if you think about you need to think about how to meet them where they are just convention on our in our engagement earlier today and that’s going to be mostly on facebook, you know, if you’re trying to get people and get them to interact, they’re going to be in a special channel, they’re going to be in facebook, they’re probably not going to be on twitter very often. There’s another myth twitter’s everywhere only thirteen percent of americans used twitter on a regular basis and of course, we all know one of them right here two hundred, chief, so thirteen percent use it on a regular basis thirteen percent of americans use twitter, so? So if you have an older population, you probably shouldn’t spend too much time on your twitter strategy, which is something we worry about, p r all the time you should think about facebook and think about other channels and think about websites and e mail because that’s, where you’re going to find i like coming back to you not because you thought i looked like john mackerel, but, you know, so it provides the broader context. Yeah, i was okay. And then jessica, you’ve done the individual you use your studies? Yes, sitting with seniors watching them way have devices that watch their eyes on a cz they navigate website. No screen reading studies are available from larger group screen reading, so that technology exists you, khun tracking studies tracking studies labbate which yeah, and then those can develop heat maps that will indicate where someone looks on a site but generally speaking, in terms of how seniors look at a website, it’s not very different from how most of us do most of us like to scan websites, we don’t like to read them. The average amount of time you spend on a website is between around single web pages between thirty seconds and sixty seconds. There’s not a whole lot of time, people, people just try to get what they can and they leave on dh that’s true for seniors as well. They’re there for a purpose way know that they don’t come in through the home page. They came from somewhere else they were looking at or looking for something specific, they link to you, they found it, they leave, yes, so he might try to engage them somehow that gets into, you know, marketing and the web site design, but but leave that aside buy-in they came for something specific, and they’re leaving after they get it correct and it’s interesting, because as webb has evolved over time, the home page has become less and less important because, as you said, they’re coming in from google and they’re landing on the pages that they’re looking for. And so for example, on the homepage is right overrated, for example, on our website, tooth wisdom dot or only eleven percent of our users come in through the home page and so it’s interesting. When you’re doing time evaluation oh, how much time should we think about the home page? Maybe eleven percent of your time, matt, i’m guessing. Does that vary for you? Is home page more important for charity? Navigator it’s actually less so so ten percent of our told my intuition eyes a data driven discussion. Ten percent of our total web page views heir of the home page so not not even landing on it. Just visiting it any point during your visit? Ok? Eso there’s there’s ah it’s a similar thing and i think, really the we mentioned five oh, wait like five oh, wait doesn’t talk doesn’t speak it all to how people move through your sight how they locate information on your site it’s about the visibility, the readability, the color contrast so it’s it’s still very important to talk to your users do the kind of studies that jessica did because you’re not going to know you can be one hundred percent five oh, wait compliant and have xero users able tto do what they’re trying to do when they come to your site. That’s absolutely true there’s a difference between accessibility, compliance and accessibility and practice, you have a loss that’s a minimum standard, right? But this is not going as far as you’re describing now. So, matt, you you’re straddling an interesting position because you said, uh, the elder population is most of your users, but you’re the younger population is growing, so you’re constantly straddling. How do you how do you rationalize that? So part of it is we we addressed it to our channels, so so our website, our facebook tend to have an old, older audience. Our twitter followers, as justin noted, tend to be younger, so we can we can sort of target content that way. Another big part of what we have to look at is just we can’t way sort of can never make a really drastic change to something on our website, because that will throw our senior audience even though a younger audiences is almost surprised when you go when i go to a website and nothing’s changed since the last time i’m there that’s sort of the anomaly, but with supporting older users, we’ve made what we thought were very simple changes to our search results page, and it throws people off and they don’t. Understand that it’s not the final destination, it’s just you have to click through to get to the data, and people are people ask us, you know, where did all the data go? Why did you take away all this information when it’s just they’re looking at a searchers all not at the page that used to be looking at so we go, let me go to justin. This is this has implications around the it’s, the way seniors air using the technology. So you’ve demystified ho are not demystified debunk these myths that, as jessica did to seniors or not using technology, they’re not engaged with it, but how they’re using it and their understanding of it is different. I mean, it’s not as sophisticated as someone who grew up with it. Yeah, it has more exposure. Yeah, i think it’s probably not a sophisticated, but they bring their kind of wisdom and life experience to it. So another thing is, what do you really believe when when you see things on the internet? We did this siri’s that things based on the whole fake news and other stuff to look at, how many people actually get news from facebook believe the news and what do they do have someone post something that they don’t like? So what we found is only about one in ten people now believe what they see in social media is news good. Only about a third of those people click through to actually look at the original content about, like, three percent it’s a very small number on then. But the other interesting thing is seniors less likely to have this one bad behavior, which is diferente de follow people who have a different opinion than them? The younger generations are much more likely tio unfriend or unfollowed someone let’s say, tony of a different opinion than idea about politics or some social thing. Seniors are going to ignore it. Younger people are going basically opt out of you and what that means and you feeling about the implication is we all are just star in our own personal echo chamber, right? What we hear, what we want to hear, we’re only talking people have the same opinion and i think that’s a very dangerous point, you know, america’s based on diversity in the melting pot, and if you’re not hearing people from other cultures or believes our angles, whether you think they’re right or not, you should at least listen. Seniors do that younger people do not very interesting. Okay, so dahna matt, i’m interested in what was the little change you made to the search page, that through seniors that you thought was not a big deal, so we actually we service mohr information onto the search result and gave you mohr functionality via the searchers, always doing things like the result s o that the fact that all that functionality and information was showing up on the search page, people didn’t didn’t understand anymore that they had to click in to a charity’s page to see that high that maurin dept is more in depth. They thought they thought you had a cat in a diddle, the right all the all the information down to just what they’re seeing on this screen, right? The one after the after i click search. Exactly, okay, kapin ate it. Is that the right use of the word? Shorten? Keep it simple, alright, reduced, all right, got it. Some best practices. You ah, from your seminar from the workshop description, you promised them best practices for helping the over sixty five, population sharing you s oh, they’re posted on the handshake from our session, which is eighteen ntcdinosaur okay, very good. So we have them posted there, and you should also be ableto flip through materials and find access to those slides. So some of the overarching principles the first one, which is very important is be big, be bold and be obvious. And so this has to do with create things in large text. High contrast, is it good enough? Text tohave a texting, larger obstruction lodging button it’s not that it’s a it’s a good thing to add it’s a nice feature, but you also have to expect quite a lot of people won’t see that available on dh so fun side, but if you make the guy larger, big that’s not still not adequate, so that goes that’s. A lot of people just will ignore that part of the screen, usually because they don’t visually identify it as the thing they’re looking for, like you said, but making text minimum of a year, she educates. The host brings me along. I’m very gracious. I’m grateful for that. Okay? Minimum size, i think, is recommended at seventeen point font for website. Okay, what’s the way know what the average is? We know what typical website is. A lot of people have it smaller than that because standard booker print size is twelve point and so a lot of people rely on that print standard over fifty percent larger yeah, roughly almost fifty percent larger than the standard book. Okay, okay, big, bold and what was it obvious? And so matt and i talked about this senior sometimes having a difficult knowing which items air interact oppcoll and so we recommend, for example, of recognizing the highlight like they don’t know that, like a button is a button on dh, so you might need literal signifiers to make it look like it’s a three dimensional button with a shadow that you would push in three in real life that’s a literal signifier, but it gives a visual indication that something’s interactive ble and i think literal signifier that central ok previous conversation today i was talking with the woman and sheila warren about bitcoin blockchain that you’re talking about the wallet wallet in blockchain. Is that is that what it was? What was the literal signals? That a literal signifier? I would say so i would say so when we refer to something that’s traditional for something that’s new because blockchain is just yes, people just discovering what it even means or how people think of a floppy disk. Us the same little signified, right? Right. A literal signifier. Yeah. Okay, little signal. I always wondered what those were, but when you see a little bank for for your for your savings or something, okay, little signifier, thank you for that. Your host aggression, right? That phrase down okay. And having nothing to do with this conversation, but or very little to do with it. Okay, i used know that matt had talked about how some of the users on their site had also struggled with things that weren’t necessarily obviously buttons. But we’re click. Okay. You got some. You got some best practices for dealing with the sixty five over. Yes. So? So one of the things is is just to make a literal call out. So one of the things we did teo help with. Our search results problem was making sure that there was there was words that said mohr details or more info, something that even though it’s a link and it’s blue and it looks just like every other charity name link that’s in the search results, the fact that it was more of a call to action and clearly something that if you’re saying, oh, i wonder where the details went, you could click on that thing, and it would take you to the following paige so just things that that sort of are very clear next steps or calls to action. The other thing that we’ve done is pages that might be a dead end, like if you click into a history of donation and you’re looking at an individual donation you made and you want to get back to the list for a lot of younger users don’t know they have to hit the back button, but we have we’ll actually put a button that says, you know, return to my donations so that it’s very clear that there’s always a way out from from whatever page you’re on and sort of similar, just sort of having bread crumbs. Sort of at the top of a page that would list sort of the hierarchy within the sight of the page that you’re currently at. So any anything that that sort of keeps people when, when they might think, oh, now i’m stuck. I don’t know where to go next e-giving them sort of an escape valve or an obvious thing to click on has the next step what are the breadcrumbs? What breadcrumbs on pages so breadcrumbs would be like if if you’re if you’re at the top of the charity navigator page and you click into a category and then it cause it will show you the category you clicked on as we list the causes within that cattle. Are you okay? Trail that contrary? Yeah, apple does that. I think they pioneered a lot of websites. Will have that sort of at the top. You are in the nest, right? Baizman nesting. Okay. Okay, justine, i don’t want to leave you out of the best practices conversation, but you know that you’re part of the bone, and i cracked. I definitely have about okay. And all of us share this theory, which is do more research. I mean, i think that the number one stumbling block block that people have and mac gave great examples and just cut you have to know your audience and do research to understand how they’re using your product or your website or whatever and sit down talk of them. It doesn’t have to be expensive, it doesn’t have to be a long process that could be a small focus group of granny’s at home or it could be your friends and family, but do research and have a discipline way. One cautionary note that i’ll put out. I don’t want to get in the acronym jail, but be calm argast drug in jail don’t ruin my little signals are like in jail, the literacy that are the literary sent a liberation, but the idea is don’t collect more data than you need because the gdpr is coming general data protection requirements from europe and so everyone in the united states, if they deal with european counterparts, is going to be required. Tio give people who are citizens of europe and the uk, the ability tio, act like they never visited your sight. Are they you know they could be for gotten and it’s very hard, the finds are extremely expensive. They’re meant to be business shutting fines and so don’t collect the any personally identifiable information you don’t absolutely need and have a way for people opt out of that, let them know what you have and have a way to get rid of it because that’s the requirement and starts at the end of may know yeah, i’ve been doing a lot of reading about that. We covered it on non-profit radio a couple months ago. Yeah, yeah it’s a tough one. But again, you know, the my final answer is you do research, it could be informal can be formal, but gets a users and have a feedback channel because we live in a dynamic world and people expect change. Okay, although matt, when people see change, they don’t always know how to react to it. And sometimes they get panicky. Yeah, and that’s the kind of thing that having a group to test that with, you know i can help you sort of a void that that stumbling block so so even even just being ableto put it in front of a small group of people who are in a representative portion of your audience, you know, putting putting in front of my developers is not a way to know if if are our older audiences going tto find a problem, you have some seniors come out to new jersey, you’re you’re in a small town into joe’s we are alleged wort know what is not gonna rock gonna rock. So so we want we it’s something we want to do more of way. Haven’t we haven’t done it? Jessica’s been ableto really incorporated into her process much more than we have. Okay, we do it all the time. And the thing we always say is you get out of your own conference room. Talk to real people, i think that’s very good advice for a lot of it. Also rates back to what you were talking about. You know, night narrowing your circle of of influence that you allow in, you know, but let’s, get out a little that’s. Good for life. Okay? We have to have, like, a minute or so left. Who wants to wants to put the finishing touches on this subject? A little motivation. Jessica, i’m gonna give it to me, okay? Because i started down that end with with justin, so let’s go. All right, so i think, oh, my gosh, no, i’m on the way they were talking to a friend, you know? We said, you know what i’ve been doing this work? Why is this so important? I think it’s very important, especially in the non-profit community that we don’t just talk the talk, but we walk the walk, and so if we say we’re trying to serve a specific population, it’s very important that we do the work to actually do that. And i believe that building tools and resources and technology for seniors is a way that we can live our mission and serve that population. That’s it rubber. Okay, she’s, jessica meister webb and you ex specialists at oral health america. Well, she’s not also mad dragon, but seated next to her is matt dragon and he’s, a director of engineering at charity navigator, and justin greaves, senior vice president of research porter novelli, justin sorry, jessica and justin. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. This interview has been sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits and this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc and i thank you for being with us. We need to take a break. Wagener, cpas they go beyond the numbers. They’re covering your essentials nine, ninety and audit before they go beyond the numbers. So first is the essentials. Then they go beyond the numbers. Check the matter whether cps dot com start your due diligence there. Then use the contact page or better go in real life. Pick up the phone and talk to you. Eat hooch doom the partner there. Wetness cpas dot com now time for tony’s take two. Thank you. However you’re listening live podcast am fm affiliate if you’re getting my insider alerts each week thank you. I am very glad i’m very grateful that you are with us. Thank you very much. Now let’s, go to grants for newbies. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference coming to you from the convention center new orleans. This interview, like all our ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donor-centric software for non-profits i guess now are janice chan she’s, a tech training specialist. For development and alumni relations. Maybe the tech training special, the one of the only are you the guy? I am a team of one seam of one. She is the tech training specialist in development and alumni relations for johns hopkins institutions, and daniel faulkner is donor engagement coordinator for baltimore community foundation. Ladies welcome. Thank you for having a son like you. Your topic is grant proposals for newbies, bootstrapping research and preparations so that’s perfect, actually, for our audience of twelve thousand small and midsize non-profits some of whom may not be doing grants don’t don’t have to get started on grant’s research. You don’t know how to start putting. Well, there’s a paper depends hyre anymore, but doing out online forms, you know, and that probably should be in the fund-raising mix. You think, daniel, for most be a consideration. Definitely it’s, it’s, it’s. A robust process. But once you get it, handle it it’s really easy to follow year after year. So if you could work it into your schedule it’s definitely worth going active. Okay. Okay, janice, anything you want to add to the motivation step i think you get it gets easier. The first one is always tough to figure out, and it gets easier as time goes on, so don’t get discouraged by exactly first one. Exactly number five will be easier than number one. Exactly. Okay, okay, let’s, talk about some of the research, you know. How do you how do you, uh, find out about grants that might be appropriate for u s o for me, i look for free and easy sources. We love free on free it’s always great. I will plug one, which is foundation center. They have a great website to find funding opportunities they have. If you in baltimore, if you go to a public library, you can actually access their account free. They’re free full membership, most libraries or institutions, educational institutions have a membership through them. So that’s a great resource. If you’re looking for nine nineties, you want information about funders? I use them a lot. Their office in d c is great because they’re really if you call, they’re willing to help you and they’re all volunteered face or they have classes webinars that are free. So i use that a lot in my day today foundation research you khun i’m sorry foundation sent to research. You could do any any of their affiliated library in that country. Exactly. There are many there that you don’t have to be a subscriber. You there so we can be who you want to do for your desktop. You won’t get as many features, but the features that are offered through their free on account justice. Good there are okay. The other other janice free resource is that we could take advantage of besides foundations dahna sure grantspace go for any federal funding and that’s that’s up your alley and you’re usually a lot of states will have a local council of grantmaker zor of foundations, community foundations, humor sort of have a consortium and you can sort of go to one place and get some of them, even have a common common form. Okay, okay. Others other we love free resource is anything besides, maybe your community group. I know. In new york, there’s new york regional duitz association of grantmaker is nigh rag. So there’s that goes well, the foundation center. Any others were involved when we have a bag, which is another resource, like a bag thing. Well, i would say community foundations are a great way. Usually most their websites give a general opportunity list of what’s going on for their fund holders. So in baltimore, we have over eight hundred funds that come through our foundation. So that’s a great source. If you know your community foundation, get in contact with them to see what’s available and how they can help. Okay? Okay, anymore i’ll keep asking. You say there are no more also like your state or local organization of a non-profit associations. So, maryland, the suspicion non-profit organizations has some of those. Resource is that you can, you know, make an appointment schedule to use as well. Ok, for research there, there for research research. Resource is also okay. Okay. Anything else? I think that covers everything the free and easy. The user friendly ones that are a great start there won’t overwhelm people. Those are really good sources to use when you’re first starting out. Okay. These are also for not only finding well grants, doing your own research around foundations that may fundez your fundez or work. These are all resource. Is that exactly that? Well, okay. Okay. What’s, the next step. So now we now we know where we should be applying. We’re taking it step by step. Danielle, where should we where do we go next? Well, for me, after i’ve done all the research, i have a proponent of writing one grant and then from there outsourcing it and using it to write many multi purpose. Exactly. I call it my my thanksgiving dinner of granting if you go one grantspace irv’s, everyone. So that’s, where most of my work comes in, i would say gathering information that pertinent to your organizations, so that might be your mission statement all your financial papers on the irs, things working with your program team to make sure you have the right lingo in a language down to explain the project that you’re want funding for take some real time to gather that all in one location. So when you sit down and write, you don’t have to go and have to go back and forth. I’m a really big component of doing all the hard work first, so then you can focus on the writing if you that’s not your strong point there’s also a point that’s tangential to that which is make sure you follow all the instructions exactly. Hide everything just for doesn’t really matter how burdensome you think it is. Yes. And they say twelve twelve point fonts on double do it, it’s not a suggestion. Find tabs? Yeah, ever. What was jonas finder town that they need to be labeled? Just do it. Okay, it’s like, in that sense, it drives me of dealing with government bureaucracy. I’m just they may ask things that don’t make sense to you, but and it may not even make sense to the people who are asking for it. It may have been twenty years ago, but just do it okay, just comply. You know you’re asking for their their support. You gotta comply, right? And i’d like to add a point to that to write figuring out like one of things we talked about our session was having a go or no go less right there’s things that yeah, there’s some hoops that you’re going to jump through it’s going to be worth it. But you also wanna they’re going to be some things that maybe is a stretch too far for organizations. Kind of taking you off mission. You’re kind of drifting. From things. So you want to make sure that that’s really feasible, invisible as well? Okay, that’s a very good point, especially in terms of mission, you know, it’s only it’s only sort of related to what you do, you know, they’re going to read through that, right? And you’re probably gonna be unsuccessful in the grant anyway, you know. So why try toe conform your work, tio what they’re looking for? Better to stick with exactly what you do, find funders for that makes it ok. But look at the different angles of what it is that you do that might be appealing to that funder, but it’s, so good to be at the end of day. What you’re actually trying to find accomplice, you gotta be on the same page, okay? Oppcoll you talk about i’m just drawing from what was in your session description? Oh, interpreting instructions is that is that basically what we’re talking about? Or is there more spending one? Yeah, just read them. I would have after you’ve written the actual brand and this is way after have someone not associated with the organization or maybe a co worker who’s, not in the process. Read the instructions of unread your grants so they can look at it from a different eye. Make sure you hit all the targets because if you’re in it and your writing it, you might think you answered that question correctly, but in reality he didn’t, and someone outside of your space well under sand so i would definitely, if you have the time, try to get someone outside of your world to read it and the instructions fired-up anything that janice you want to add, i think also, i don’t like to start with what’s needed less when i go through the instructions like, okay, let’s, before we can gather everything’s, make that checklist that i don’t lose something or i can get somebody else rolling on whatever i need, i need their help with. Okay. Last november, i hosted a panel at the foundation center. I’ve done a fair amount of speaking there. It was not a great writer or professional, but it was a panel of grayce grant oars, funders and one non-profit and the subject matter was building a relationship with the institution, even including at the applications, you know, some some explicitly say no calls. So oppcoll but others are more open to communication or maybe it’s no calls and, you know, we take emails, but talk a little about that early stage where you’re still rating, having getting questions answered, you know, not being afraid, anybody? Well, i’ve never come across a call for a proposal that didn’t have instructions on if you have questions during the process, they always air usually upfront about that which they prefer follow that to a t and that that’s what i told my freelance clients the same way, you know, if you do have a question, let me go through that process for you, but don’t like magically run into that person for that thunder that’s not really appropriate, but follow their rules just like the instructions for the grant follow the rules. What do you mean that people see through that stuff? Yeah, you know, it becomes law fake and phony, and you don’t want that, i don’t know and if the end, if they don’t write, i mean funders know they’ve your non-profit what you’re looking for us funding, right? Like that’s already in the back, right? You want to you want to find out? What? What it is that that fundez hoping to achieve through their grantmaking so that you can line that up. But i think also, if they don’t have explosives constructions about, don’t call, don’t e mail anything like that, right? You know, it doesn’t mean i don’t feel like you can’t. You’re like, you know what? Like our boardmember knows somebody on their board, let’s, just see if that would be okay to have a meeting. Tto, learn more and meet with their program officer to see you. Is this a good fit? Doesn’t line up or, you know, it should be it go looking elsewhere. Good. How about tracking deadline? Make sure we go to a lot of details were like twenty five minutes, yeah, don’t hold back, don’t hold out on non-profit video sures deadline, so deadlines ah, and i’m one of those people would put, like, you know, two weeks ahead of the actual deadline on my calendar, but i think that there are a lot more, you know, when i did a lot of my grantwriting is before a lot of project management skills were easier to use and they are, so i just put a lot of things in a spreadsheet on dh kind of, like project manage things that way think they’re a lot more project management tools now, right where you can put in due date it’s gonna trigger reminder and send you an email or, you know, when you log into that system, et cetera, but i think that that is really key, because if you you know, if you don’t similar, like if you’re applying for a job, you don’t follow the instructions, you don’t meet their time frames, you don’t show that you’re respectful of their time, they’re going like, why am i exactly? We have a deadline it’s an easy right off that in the next way didn’t say postmark said, bye you know you’re gonna be disqualified our land and also building and buffer times using technology. First of all, that’s a technology help brovey times yeah, you’re not gonna be able to devote a solid week to this, so don’t leave five business days before the deadline to get started on that right? Be realistic about what you can do in the time for him, a lot of opportunities may pop up it’s a rare with grants cause cycles are pretty much the same, but be realistic if you are a team of one r office that small, i don’t think you can pull off the whole grant and a time frame of a month that’s a lot of work to do for one person if you’re a small office buy-in some opportunities you have to wait for just go after next year, but yeah, be realistic about those deadlines and don’t think you could just write a grant overnight. I thought clients asked me that, and i always turned them down right away. No, you won’t get my best work at that, so yeah. Just be realistic about what you can produce. What your staff can take on that’s also related to what we were just talking about it, asking questions of the the foundation of the thunder. You know, if the question is coming the day before the due date yeah, that looks back that you know, that even you can’t mask it. They know they’re down you again. You’re gonna be gonna be found out. So all right, plan ahead. Leave yourself enough time. So even a month is really not enough time for a small shop. I like to do at least four to six months and that’s if everything is weight, should be. But there are those rare occasions where something pops up. You can’t miss out, you need it. That’s where i would say if you’ve already written that one grant, you’re prepared already so you can dust it off for what you need from it. And you can apply to that one that pops up within a month. Otherwise, i probably wouldn’t go under a month just because of what you have to produce. If it’s a brand new grant and if they’re asking for a lot. Of extra things that you don’t have time to produce in a you know, good manner, i think the weather you’re starting from scratch like your writing a grand for a new program that you haven’t had to write one for me for right? Like a lot of stuff you can recycle, but some things you can’t or like, they’re taking a very different tack on whatever it is you’re doing. I think the other thing is that the attachments, right? If they want their like budget for mated, a format, a specific way, you you know, your finance person doesn’t have that time, right? So i think just being cognizant of that and being cognizant, what you’re asking of your coworkers will also make the process smoother because you’re always like, i always worked closely with the finance people with our program south and the better relationships i had with them, like, okay, let’s, be realistic about this and also is this realistic for me to ask for? Or is there are there some adjustments that we should make that’s so meet the put the funder is looking for, but that aren’t going to be just a pain for everybody to actually implement if you get the grand also good point too you’re going to be counting on other people? Or is that another reason to allow enough time? Exactly? I don’t want to make enemies in your you got enough opportunity. Do that elsewhere around. Same team here. Okay, i gotta take a break. You’ve heard the talis moughniyah lll from lee elementary school, where they’re getting a monthly donation from tell us for the credit card processing of a parent owned company that’s the secret to the monthly pass of revenue from tell us, ask the people close to your organization who owned businesses that would they switch to tell us that’s the key? Get those insiders started tony dahna em a slash tony tell us now back to grants for newbies anything else around this discussion about deadlines? More hold out on us now don’t wait to submit an online application so the last day like i always i actually block, would block off time on my calendar because i definitely like the day before submitted and like their website has gone down, you know, like will this count against us? We don’t know, maybe we should have submitted it earlier, and so then you end up panicking about it. You know why you schedule it, like at least three days in a fans for, like, an online submission, or, you know, maybe till i get it in the mail, get it, you know, tracks, you know, it’s worth getting a track for that piece of minds. I once drove across town and actually dropped it off. But that’s, an idea you got there twenty minutes before that funders office closed. Got there, just in the nick of time. It was a day off, but that was not ideal. Don’t do that. Don’t do that. Don’t let this happen to your exact a proud moment, okay, but thanks for sharing. Hyre. A prepper preparing for online submissions. We just talked about that clearly. Tips for online. We got more time to get now, when is your sessions? Have you had it? This morning. Okay. Now you spoke for an hour on this topic. And you? We did. Okay. What? I think it was just right. Join now. We’ve been together for seventeen minutes. So are like sixteen minutes. We have a minute of prep. You got more. Don’t hold out on us. Ah, fun fact about me. I love reading nine nineties that’s. If you know what those are, the virus form nine. Ninety. Exact wired by latto you like you’re not talking about the easy no, no, no, no. Thirty patients postcard postcard don’t no, no, actually, i started high school with a non-profit i was volunteering for that’s how we fund-raising to come back because we’re all volunteers so i was taught very of sixteen. Seventeen howto break them down and i enjoy it now for sure somebody tips on how to decipher how to get out of the good things to know you can find out who you need to contact as far as who to invite to her events, if you’re afraid that religion is the foundation, you’re looking at the wound, yes, so they have to list who was involved with our foundation. So i’m talking about their board, who their highest paid person is our persons, you don’t have to disclose your five thing exactly he’s on the nine, ninety okay would say if you are not inviting those people to her events, you should, because those are the people who have power clearly in that organization. If they don’t know who you are and you’re not on their radar, you should be, and that list it verifies, hey, they’re important to be on this form. I should probably know who they are, and they should know who i am so that i always tell people check that list out is web sites aren’t always updated quickly on dh that’s, a yearly thing that the irs form also their disclosure of where they give money. People can say a lot of things, but what they report to the arrests have to be legit, so looking at how much they give tio organizations that are like yours, so if you’re, you know, arts organization and you find a nine ninety where they’ve given in the past, but their highest gift has been two thousand dollars. I wouldn’t go for them for ten thousand dollars. I would stay in that range of okay under two thousand it’s the first time, maybe a thousand, but it gives you a good indication of what they’re capable of giving that’s also looking at their salaries if their executive director only makes fifty thousand and you need that probably shouldn’t ask for fifty thousand. But you should definitely okay, little things like that where you can break that down on nine nineties there free. You don’t have to. Everyone has tohave one. Some of them are located on people’s websites, so they’re really easy to find this buy-in store have foundation. They d’oh d’oh scores another one. I sir, has its foundation, of course, has attorney xero back-up probono also happens. We’re together database e-giving well, yeah, yeah, so little things like that. I kind of check on what i do take on a freelance client and they say, oh, i want to go after this grant, i check out that foundation first and say, is this worth your time? Because they might have grand ideas off. Oh, they’ll give me this when in reality no, they’re not so it’s. A good way to double check yourself and it’s a free source and they have to give it something else that can happen is referrals from board members, but not bona fide like just right. Oh, i heard i heard the rockefellers funded. Yeah, great. You know, let’s see, if that i dont happen, you know our work, you know, they have a lot of money, a rockefeller have a lot of money and gets to exactly everybody knows that. And if they’re not allied with what we’re doing now, what’s the point. Sometimes you have to press back, push back. Otherwise you’re going to be real. Or if you find in baltimore, we have certain family foundations where they give to similar organizations throughout the year if you’re new on the scene and saying, hey, is this a good opportunity or good contact? Tohave you can find similar people are doing your work and say, well, they’ve already got a contact with them. They might like me too. So it’s a good way to say like, are we on the same level, you know. Will they even, like, welcome, ian, if they’re already on that same mind. So i like to look at that. Zoho your peers are exactly know your peers are going after. So you khun get a piece of that pie. Okay. All right. Those were excellent. Thank you, danielle. Insider like pro tips for the nine. Ninety it’s. A weird thing i liked. I glad somebody likes to look at them. It’s mitch, what else? We got several minutes together. Somebody but somebody had brought up like they had this sort of weird program model. And anyhow, i think one of things that’s important to think about is as much as we harp on following the instructions and following, you know, everything that they asked for the tea. Like what? Their contact preferences are, et cetera. Also don’t feel like you should be boston by that. Right. So that’s that’s, i think where working your network has the potential. Teo, open up. You know, other ideas. So i get in terms of corporate funders. Right, corp corporations usually have both, like the they might have a corporate foundation, but there’s a marketing dollars that they give. Out of to write for a slightly different reasons, right? But if you have a conversation with whoever’s in charge of giving right, or even if it’s somebody in their corporate social responsibility department, right, you can have that conversation about, you know it does this make here’s what we’re doing here, some opportunities for your organization to get involved, you know, maybe if employees engagements important to them, whatever it is, right? You finding out what that angle is for, what they’re trying to achieve through there giving right, whether it’s on the marketing event sponsorship side or they really like that grants more formal grantmaking side for it or some bridge of the combination of the two right, and then also corporations, national corporations in this half like local community e-giving where that local store of, you know, say of a large chain store, they might have that store manager might have the ability to give out small grantspace right, it’s a good way to get your foot in the door and say like, hey, can we get we work across the state? Can we get? Is it possible to get funding at that state level? So i think don’t be afraid to sort of, like, figure out what is your foot in the door to start that conversation with them and that’s also where you can find out. Okay, you know what? Maybe this isn’t really good fit, but people move around to write and they remember you like you’ve had a really good relationship with them. You’ve, like, always kept him updated, invited them to your events, right? See what we’re doing, even if you’re not doing it right now, maybe you personally, like i would make, you know, like we’ve gotten i’ve seen people like, you know, like, okay, my company isn’t doing right now make a small personal gift because i think you guys are doing great work, right? And those people have moved, and i’ve also see them come back and say, like, you know what? I’m a different organization that now funds programs like yours, so you know, like, the more you can build those relationships and have those conversations just get on people’s radars, as danny mentioned, the more people you know, just like personal networking, the more people know what you’re doing and see that impact it has, then i think that’s more people can advocate for you. Someone who’s volunteered to re grants for review. Ah lot of the decisions come down to do i know who this person is. Do i know who this grant us for? Andi it’s very shallow thing to say like, well, i don’t know who that is, why i give money even though they’re doing great work, but it’s a reality. If you’re not on their radar, why would they take a chance on giving this x amount of money? So you really do have to think about how you’re engaging those people that you’re going after and don’t just approach them when you need money approached me around so they know who you are and they feel comfortable getting with that amount of money that isn’t that the same as what we do with individual? Yes, come to the clinic and engaged. We educate them just like them. And then, you know, the ultimately that there may very well be a solicitation for some, you know, for something and and janice, you’re point is very good to terms of corporate, you know, it’s not only about money, but employee engagement, your opportunities it’s often very important, right? Or if they’re start opening headquarters in a new community, and then i have a relationship with that community, and you, d’oh, right, that’s, a good place to position yourself as well. Okay, uh, we still have another couple of minutes left, like men and a half or so together. Daniel, i guess. My three takeaways for writing, because that’s, my background study, playwriting. But this is how i get to write as well. It’s all over it’s weird, but i would definitely say, win or lose, funded or not, i was under thank you letter i’m a big proponent of thank you letters that’s part of the follow-up you never know when friend funding will become available. So that little piece of thank you, you know, regardless, we’ll keep them engage. I always say simple equals fundez so you might have a beautiful paragraph about everything you’re doing, but when it gets down to it, it might be too much. So that goes back to the instructions. If they have a word limit, follow it. But also you’re getting too wording and just what you’re doing. Just take it out. They really want to look at the numbers and the outcomes and how they’re going to get that money back if there is opportunity for that looked like that. And then your last one kind of brief. Last one said you had three three takeaway? No, i don’t never mind. Okay. Thinking. Sorry, right to protest to yeah, those are the two big ones too big to take away. Okay. All right. We are going to leave it there. All right, so my pleasure they are. They are jenise chan, the technical training specialist in development and alumni relations for johns hopkins institutions on danielle faulkner dahna engagement coordinator at baltimore community foundation. It sounds like she’s also a freelancer. Yes. Okay. Okay. Girl right. That’s, the freelance for arts funding in baltimore city. We’re looking for that girl right where you are, right? Tio? Yep, like playwright. Okay. Danielle janis, thanks so much. So much. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen, ninety si, thank you for being with us. This interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use donor-centric software for non-profits, thanks so much next week. Storytelling and free facebook fund-raising if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers wetness, cps dot com and by telus credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream durney dahna slash tony tello’s, a creative producers claire meyerhoff family boats in the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez and our music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Nothing. Good. Hello, this is bruce chamlong, host of the web design and technology coach. Join me and my guests every tuesday from eight to nine pm as we discussed the latest in web design, social media, marketing, search, engine optimization and technology way also discussed popular topics, including ward press, making money online, better koegler rankings and more every month way. 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Videos: Build Your Grantmaker Relationships: Full, Medium & Executive Summary

I’ve got three videos of a smart panel I moderated for the Foundation Center in New York City last November. They’re all about building and growing relationships with institutional funders. You’ll see many parallels between this work and your individual major giving program.