Tag Archives: nonprofit hiring

Nonprofit Radio for December 5, 2022: 6 Steps Before You Hire


Andrea Hoffer6 Steps Before You Hire

Hiring is rampant because turnover is rampant. You have work to do internally, before you go public with your job posting. Andrea Hoffer, from AHA! Recruiting Experts, talks you through her 6 steps. You can download the first chapter of Andrea’s book, “Hire Higher.” We recorded on a bus in the Israeli desert.


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[00:01:10.11] spk_0:
And welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of para fia if you touched me with the idea that you missed this week’s show six steps before you hire, hiring is rampant because turnover is rampant, you have work to do internally before you go public with your job posting. Andrea Hoffer from ah ha recruiting experts talks you through her six steps On Tony’s take two lots of opportunities for growth. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Here is six steps before you hire.

[00:01:57.34] spk_1:
It’s a pleasure to welcome to non profit radio Andrea Hoffer, Andrea is a businesswoman over three decades of experience. She’s managed hundreds of employees and knows firsthand the everyday challenges, motivating a team, exceeding customer expectations and meeting business and revenue goals now Andrea is using her experience to help companies recruit hire and onboard new team members successfully without wasting time or money on those poor hires that don’t work out. Her company is a hot recruiting a AJ they are at aha underscore recruiting and at aha recruiting experts dot com Andrea welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:09.12] spk_2:
hi, Tony, I’m really happy to be here. This is, this is pretty cool,

[00:03:41.33] spk_1:
You’re happy in your surprise surprise Andrea and I are on a bus in Israel, we are headed to the dead sea, we met at this course called Israel innovation that she and I are both taking along, with I don’t know seems to be maybe 60 or 70 other people most are not from the US most are from latin America brazil chile Argentina. Uh, but there are also folks from central America Panama, Colombia costa rica. Uh, there’s a woman from Ireland should make sure that we know Ireland is in the house every time we have a meeting. So we’re spending a week together traveling through Israel. Uh, we’ve been in tel Aviv together. Um, today we left tell Aviv came to the negative desert, the desert we visited kibbutz and now we’re on a bus from the kibbutz to the Dead sea where we’re gonna stay overnight in hotels and we are stealing some time on the bus so that Andrea and I can record and I can record because we’re not sure if we’re gonna have time any other time. There might be occasional interruptions, bus noises. And we’re on the bus. Welcome! Welcome. We are talking about the process of discovery, which is the earliest phase, right? This is the earliest phase of

[00:03:50.55] spk_2:
Yes, but what you do before you even put a job ad out there, things you need to think about. So that when you do start recruiting, you’re looking for the for the right person.

[00:04:04.69] spk_1:
Okay, so we’re in introspective exercise in house were strictly in house Discovery and you call this phase Discovery?

[00:04:10.96] spk_2:

[00:04:11.69] spk_1:
Why is that?

[00:04:27.93] spk_2:
Because a lot of it you actually know, but you haven’t thought about it, You haven’t asked yourself those questions that you’re discovering this about yourself, about your organization, about the people that work for you and what you want your work culture to look like, what you want your team to look like.

[00:04:34.23] spk_1:
Okay, okay, now one thing I didn’t say in your bio, you are founder and what you what do you call yourself at, recruiting founder and Ceo

[00:04:44.99] spk_2:
founder and Ceo

[00:04:46.08] spk_1:
founder and Ceo

[00:04:47.36] spk_2:
recruiting experts,

[00:04:53.26] spk_1:
recruiting experts. Okay, excellent. Alright, so you have a discovery process, You have a process for this discovery?

[00:04:57.61] spk_2:
Yes. So we have six questions. Um six overall questions that we typically take our clients through and um and then there are lots of questions underneath it to go to go deeper, but I can

[00:05:11.15] spk_1:
to talk to

[00:05:11.99] spk_2:
You about the six,

[00:05:13.17] spk_1:
the six most important and maybe some of my questions will evoke some of your sub questions etcetera. So, okay, so

[00:06:34.06] spk_2:
the first question is really, you know, why does this position exist? What is the main purpose of it? Every position has some reason it exists and it typically in some way will contribute to the bottom line and will contribute to the mission of the company. So it either in some way is gonna save your company money or in some way is going to make the company more money, but it’s usually even bigger than that. And I and I have an example I can share to you. Um, so one example I like to share is an account manager and the job we like to break it into job title, job purpose and then organizational mission. And so the job title of account manager could be the job purpose to ensure client’s expectations are exceeded. Very, you know, it’s very simple. There’s no very high level, no getting this wrong. You know, we tell people don’t worry about getting it right. You’re gonna start, you’re going to tweak it over over time, but just put some thought into it. So you have direction. Um, so the whole purpose of this account manager’s job is to make sure the client’s expectations are exceeded. And then as we go through some of these other questions of these six questions will go a little bit deeper of what that looks like.

[00:06:51.07] spk_1:
Let’s let’s reassure folks that this certainly applies to non profits because your work is, your work is mostly you’ve done some work with nonprofits and you have a background in nonprofits.

[00:07:07.38] spk_2:
Yes. I started working in higher ed. And so in an arts organization that was all non profit. And then when I started the company, I did a lot of consulting with nonprofits in addition to small business,

[00:07:21.93] spk_1:
everything we’re talking about transfers

[00:07:23.44] spk_2:
of course,

[00:07:25.56] spk_1:
Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. And I’m sure you all know

[00:07:32.11] spk_2:
that in many ways, a lot of these questions of why a position exists or what the mission is of an organization. In some ways, it’s even easier for the nonprofits to answer because they talk about their mission so much more than business students often. So it there’s a good connection there

[00:08:07.52] spk_1:
and before we go further with, because we’re still at the very high level, why does the position exist? Who should be well, yeah, who should be answering these questions? What’s the structure do we send around a survey to all the employees? Is it only the employees who are going to work with the person whose whose position were filling is leadership involved? Who’s answering this? What are the logistics of getting?

[00:08:36.48] spk_2:
A lot of it depends on how large the organization is. We have done this process with just the Ceo or just the leader of if it’s a non profit organization, but typically would recommend getting at least the leadership involved. But if you’re thinking, if you can get more people involved in answering these questions and discussing these questions and get as many people as possible, the better outcomes better you’re going to answer these questions,

[00:08:49.58] spk_1:
you like the idea of maybe circulating the questions in advance and then meeting everybody writing their answers that

[00:09:55.98] spk_2:
we actually have. Sometimes what we do if the organization agrees and they can get more people involved is we do a sort of sort of what you just said, like a questionnaire like a survey of different than have each person fill it out separately without talking to each other. Even if it’s a small organization, we’re just sitting at the four or five people and then we get them all together and we talk about, well, okay, here are the patterns we saw here, here’s what everybody’s saying and usually about 70 to 80% is going to be similar but then hear the differences and why do you, why do you think this person answered this and this and that person into that? And we talk about the gaps and then a lot of times we’re able to bring it together and and really come to a, I don’t want to say a compromise, but something that is behind a consensus.

[00:10:00.90] spk_1:
Um, Alright, so we’re at the level, why does this position even exist?

[00:10:22.73] spk_2:
So the next one is, it’s about the outcomes you’re looking for and this drills it down. Um, often two metrics, you know, how do you qualify this and the, and you know, I know you’re doing a planned giving and if you talk about a fundraising, which is kind of an offshoot bringing money in there could be the amount of money, the level of money that this position is responsible for bringing in. It could be how much money you want to bring in for different events or for different milestones or deadlines.

[00:10:45.58] spk_1:
What if it’s a program

[00:10:47.02] spk_2:

[00:10:48.14] spk_1:
and they’re gonna be doing service

[00:10:50.00] spk_2:

[00:10:51.61] spk_1:
beneficiary humans in some in some capacity and then would it be like your monthly throughput or a number of client hours you spend? It

[00:11:02.97] spk_2:
could be, it could be retention, It could be

[00:11:07.06] spk_1:
keeping people in

[00:11:13.36] spk_2:
keeping volunteers or keeping how many people attend and and come back each time. You know, anything that shows growth that shows that it’s a contribution to the, to the mission overall.

[00:11:22.54] spk_1:
Okay, Alright. Again, that’s why mission can be so

[00:11:25.01] spk_2:
valuable. Exactly.

[00:11:34.97] spk_1:
Because your, as you said, you know, we’re talking about mission often it’s the core, it’s the reason we exist. It’s protecting the homeless, It’s protecting animals. It’s feeding the hungry education

[00:12:01.45] spk_2:
and this is what’s going to attract people. All of this is what is going to attract people to join your team to join your organization and money of course is important to most people they have to be able to live. But and to many people this mission knowing how they contribute to the mission of the organization, whether it’s a business or a non profit is just as important, sometimes more important than than the money factor. And so if you can get this part right and and show that connection, you’re gonna attract more skilled people and more pass.

[00:12:24.15] spk_1:
And I see why you say we’re jumping ahead because now we’re kind of bleeding into promoting the promoting position and organization to the, to the and the mission to the right people, but we’re still in the discovery phase, but, but it all into relates of course. Um And so these are, these are valuable introspection questions. Okay. Anything else that you want to say about that? That second one before we?

[00:12:47.77] spk_2:
No, I think I think

[00:12:49.03] spk_1:

[00:15:53.09] spk_2:
pretty much got the gist of it there. Um and then the next one is I like to refer to it as success traits. But what are the characteristics? And this is yeah, this is specific to the position because we’re going to talk about the organizational culture in a moment. But you know, what are the specific characteristics, specific traits that you have seen of successful people in this position or similar position in the past? And this takes some thought and and we usually, the way we pull it out of people is by stories. I’m a big fan of thinking back and writing down stories stories of um when you had team members that were successful and lots of different successes. Big successes. But I’m always encouraging people to to track those things to write them down. And then also stories of when people weren’t successful and you start to see patterns of the different traits of of what would make somebody successful in this particular position. Um and I’ll give you an example. We um, you know, we often will recruit for executive assistants and we had a couple of years ago we had a ceo and just can apply non profit for profit. But this this happened to be a for profit company. Um, and she needed an executive assistant and she had already gone through several, nobody was successful with. Um, and one of the things, one of the reasons why she was having trouble finding the right person was her company, um, was very fast pace. It, everybody in the company traveled a lot and the Ceo was absolutely brilliant. She needed somebody who could organize her and be like a million steps ahead of her. And, and used to that chaos and be able to thrive in that chaos. So we knew we were recruiting that those were some of the traits we were looking for. So we had lots of amazing executive assistant candidates who had great skills. But as soon as we talked to them and learned, you know, that they’ve been an executive system, say in a large organization for yes, a very busy, you know, senior executive, but it was still structured, they were still useful. A lot of structure. We knew they weren’t going to be a good fit. So we knew what types of success traits to, to look for and, and then, you know, we take that and we drill it down to a couple of sentences so that it really jumps out at the right person when we’re going to look for someone. And so that it’s very clear to us for more interview, was

[00:15:53.54] spk_1:
there any chance that you should have been recruiting for a new Ceo, in that, in that company?

[00:16:18.50] spk_2:
Actually there are lots of businesses and even non profit organizations that do function in that way. There’s still some structure, there’s still productivity. But because of the nature of what they do there is this daily chaos. You just have to find the right way to say. And and it was also where they were in their history as a, as a company to with the growth.

[00:18:29.44] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications their e newsletter this week. What a year in review can do for you. And they talk about the value of a year in review article or blog post that you write. They say that it usually only requires a light lift because you just need to spend time summarizing stuff that you’ve been writing all year long and of course you’re gonna file focus on milestones, you know, main achievements, accomplishments. But they also suggest including challenges, especially if you overcame them successfully. Because that adds some authenticity. Right? And they suggest that a year in review can help you, of course, you know, showcase your results. You just talked about, you know, accomplishments, achievements, you can acknowledge your key audiences, supporters, loyal customers, donors, your, your beneficiaries, any any parts of your year in review that you can work these folks in all the better boost morale. Uh, it’s often easy to forget all the things that you did achieve over the year at the end of the, at the end of the year because it’s so busy. So this can help refresh recollections about the good things that that happened through the year. Um, so those are some ideas that they have around your year in review piece. You can get their e newsletter, which is on message at turn hyphen two dot c o turn to communications. Your story is their mission Now back to six steps before you hire. We

[00:18:29.70] spk_1:
Have Questions 4, 5 and six.

[00:18:31.19] spk_2:
Yes. I’m trying to make sure. I don’t forget any

[00:18:33.98] spk_1:
here. You

[00:20:15.83] spk_2:
know, I think this is good and let me just go back to my thing here. So the, so we talked about success trades which are specific to the position, but then you have your core values that are specific to the overall organ. So everyone in the organization, no matter what position they have lived by. These core values and I call them, um, kind of your default zone, your guiding principles. And if you’re done right, if they’re really alive in your organization, then you know that no matter what decisions being made by anybody in the organization that there they’ll be making a decision the way you around those values, the way they act. And so for example, one of our core values at aha is think like a detective. So we’re often kind of putting our detective hat on and often the core values do start to come from what’s important to the ceo to the person who’s running the company or restart the company but you want to make sure that they’re also important to everybody in the organization that they like. It they they’re successful by it there it’s natural for them. So when when we’re recruiting for our company we’re looking for people who are curious Think outside the box who put their detective hat on and don’t just accept, you know you have to do things 123 but there’s gotta be another way to do it better. Um And so it comes up in our meetings a lot. You know when somebody says they have a challenge, did you put your detective hat on? How you know how else can we? So that’s one of our core values

[00:20:28.18] spk_1:
since we’re in the middle here were three out of six I want to mention. Andrew you don’t have in your Andrea you don’t have in your bio that you’re the author of. Higher.

[00:20:38.84] spk_2:

[00:21:01.30] spk_1:
Unless I I don’t I don’t I didn’t deliberately cut it out of your cut it out of your bio. No look there’s I’m showing her the bio bio on her phone which does not mention that she is the author of the book. It says about the author it’s a piece of a larger pr alright still. Okay well she’s she’s the author of the book. Higher. Higher. H. I. R. E. H. I. G. H. T. R. Which you can get on amazon. Higher.

[00:21:10.17] spk_2:
Higher and and in the book it’s a very practical guide and it does walk through these six questions and a lot more but it goes into more detail about it and

[00:21:29.55] spk_1:
we can’t do everything the surface, we can’t dive deep. Just you know, if this intrigues you, you got to get the book, that’s the only way to get the full depth. Alright. Number four question four discovery process.

[00:22:21.29] spk_2:
So this is what everybody already thinks they know right when when you’re thinking about, I got to fill a job. I always say employers say okay they have to have this many years of experience in this particular industry and they’ve had to have You know, no this specific software and have this education and all of these skills and when I go online and I look at job as it’s usually pages and pages of the experience and skills that they want as can be a really big mistake. So what I recommend in this area is just narrow it down to the 4-6 skills or experience that you absolutely need for the job and think about

[00:22:27.56] spk_1:
Like 13 Bullets one

[00:22:33.38] spk_2:
job. I just

[00:22:36.65] spk_1:
I get bored.

[00:22:40.48] spk_2:
Most candidates look at it. I

[00:22:44.63] spk_1:
can’t possibly sometimes I wonder if there’s anybody who could really creating such an ideal that I think there may be scaring candidates away. They’re intimidated by the prospect of the requirements of the

[00:23:10.31] spk_2:
job. And the interesting thing is there have been studies done between men and women and men typically, Even if they can only do three out of the 15 bullets on the list will apply, but women, if they can do 14 out of 15 on average will not apply. So you end up

[00:23:22.81] spk_1:
cutting out, you

[00:24:05.01] spk_2:
know, a big part of the population. Um, so you know, we typically recommend between four and six of the most important, think about what you’re set up to train for. So you know, if you can bring someone on who has the right attitude, you know, they’re trainable, make sure you can train them or you have something, some resources to train them. Um, and then that opens the field for you and, and people love training and professional development. That’s one of the big things. Again, it’s are always asking about what, how am I gonna get growth from this? How is this going to take me to the next level? So that’s an amazing thing to offer somebody

[00:24:08.81] spk_1:
training. Professional development is important even more. So maybe now in the post pandemic economy, they want candidates want to know that the company, the organization is going to invest in their growth,

[00:24:24.07] spk_2:
that they’re going to invest in the growth, that there’s opportunity to move up. But even if there is an opportunity to move up because sometimes certain organizations just, it just doesn’t have, that is their opportunity to learn something new. There are lots of ways to keep people happen about what they’re doing and wanting to stick, stick around even if it’s not a huge bump in pay and a huge title. That’s not always what’s most important to

[00:24:54.78] spk_1:
people? What do we have next?

[00:26:14.38] spk_2:
Okay, let’s see. Did we go? We went through five already, Right. But we went through four. Okay. We talked about results. So what, why do people stay at your organization and why do they leave that often? We don’t even ask ourselves that. And that was probably a question for, for your current team. You know, what, what is it that they really enjoy about working there? Is it the mission, is it that you’re, you do a lot of things together as a team. Is it the pay, is it the professional development? There could be lots of different things sometimes, which is very big. Now it’s the flexibility, you know, if they’re they can come in at different hours, um, or you know, is there a work from home? Is there a hybrid? That’s of course very big right now. What is it that keeps them and what is it that drives them away? And that often could be like, you know, you you made a comment when I I talked about that example of this Ceo and the kind of the chaos, some people thrive in that by your comment. It sounds like that would probably drive you away. Um, so be very clear about what your environments like and put it all out there sometimes. Um People will ask me, well shouldn’t I make it sound really great? Only if it’s true, Be authentic and find out what is true.

[00:26:23.97] spk_1:
Otherwise you’re misleading the candidates.

[00:26:25.53] spk_2:
Exactly. It’s

[00:26:26.39] spk_1:
a chaotic environment and a lot of flexibility is needed and it’s hard to work through a weekly plan that you might

[00:26:34.83] spk_2:
put put

[00:27:13.69] spk_1:
together on monday or the friday before. Uh then then reveal that because the person is gonna leave in a couple of months when they realize that it’s not, it’s not the predictable week after week pattern that you made it sound like that. You just told me out explicitly that it is all right. So if we’re at why do people, why do people stay and why do people leave? Uh look people could be leaving because of leadership, difficult leadership, but now we’re having leadership. Answer the answer the survey uh here’s where the leaders answers the C suite answers. They diverge from the and who in the C suite is gonna be willing to admit that they are the reason or contributing to the reason that people leave.

[00:28:39.25] spk_2:
You would be surprised that I have met a lot of leaders over the years, both in non profit and for profit. And I have met leaders who who recognize where their challenges are. And sometimes they’ll say I need to hire somebody to fill that gap for me. Actually met with a later a couple weeks ago who said that, he said you know what I know I’m not good at managing people like keeping the team motivated that it um checking in with them and making sure they’re supported so I need to hire somebody to help me with that or that order kind of fill that gap. So a lot of them will especially now because more important because we as a society after the pandemic are demanding more of that you know to be recognized to be respected too leaders who are going to contribute to our growth. So I think that more and more leaders are even if they have to be banged on the head a little bit with it um I think they’re recognizing the importance of that and that they need to do that they want to retain,

[00:28:42.12] spk_1:
okay you’re finding that people are realistic

[00:28:46.70] spk_2:
about it couldn’t be

[00:29:06.07] spk_1:
careful, you should watch your hair on your left side too. So that was Andrea Andrea I’ve been calling you for half a week now and recording and I keep saying Andrea Andrea touching her mike but we’re on the fly here that’s what that’s what that noise in the middle of anything else went through everything. That’s a very good one why why people stay and why people

[00:30:42.21] spk_2:
leave, you could spend a lot of time on that. It was so funny I actually I met with often I will run masterminds or be in masterminds with other organizational leaders and there was one woman who um her business is growing very quickly and she said I’m so overwhelmed and like what are you overwhelmed with? She said I’m overwhelmed with the employee and gauge. I feel like there’s so much I need to do to show my employees I care and to keep them happy and successful and I’ve been told like you know there’s so much out there and it’s just there’s so much more because that we’re hearing now. So I was like you don’t have to do everything right away. Just check in with your team regularly. That’s probably the most important thing is checking in, see how you can help them and make sure they know you’re being authentic. You’re being sincere. You truly want to hear if there’s a challenge which this leader is naturally empathetic. So I said really you just need to be you. She had a counseling background but I told her to just start with three things that

[00:30:47.38] spk_3:
we are

[00:30:48.36] spk_1:
now we’re gonna pause while we have an introduction explanation.

[00:31:27.55] spk_3:
Maybe we should include this. People have problems with breathing. They come to because the air here is very very dry and it’s very good for people who have problems breathing and lungs problems. Now the dead sea is also part of I would say medical tourism and now that we are starting to go down to the dead sea A lot is like 4, 500 m above sea level. The dead sea is 425 m below sea level. So we’re going out 800 m down.

[00:31:39.92] spk_1:
Alright. So there’s a little bit about the dead sea and how far below sea level it is courtesy of our guide for the week. Is Michael from Denmark.

[00:33:07.18] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. We are at the beginning of december which of course is most likely a very important month for you regardless of how you perform, how your organization comes out tomorrow is another opportunity to grow. So I’m urging you to shed Let go how it goes today. This week you have another day tomorrow, you have another week and you have the one after. So regardless of how you and your nonprofit do even this year 2023 is another opportunity Full of 365 days. If you do great this year. 2022, fantastic. If you don’t, 2023 is another new full year. Your past doesn’t define your future and you have many opportunities to grow each day, week, month year. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for six steps before you hire with Andrea hoffer.

[00:33:26.29] spk_1:
We were talking about the reasons why people leave the reasons why people stay and I was saying that I think that’s valuable introspection. Even apart from a hiring process, this is valuable, valuable to think about these things. Is there anything more that you want to add on?

[00:35:51.46] spk_2:
No, not onto that. And you know I agree it is it is very important and you know sometimes we do all this work with clients and to find them the best candidate or what we think is the best candidate. And what we have learned over the years is that we also need to do work with the employers on how to set the new higher up for success and and keep them happy and help them with success on ongoing because we’re seeing, we started doing a survey of our people. We placed last year in 2021 we placed 100 and 65 people and we have been reaching out to them At different points like 30 days in 60 days and 90 a year to find out. Did they feel like the recruitment process was professional? Was it a good representation of where they were going? And then what was, you know, what is it like at the company And what we’re hearing? A lot of is I wasn’t really, I’m generalizing here but I wasn’t really set up for success. I wasn’t given the resources I needed to be successful or sometimes it wasn’t as described, which means we we didn’t get the correct information from from the employer because what what also seems to happen sometimes is the employer things change quickly in organizations and sometimes they change the position so they might not change position title, but then they changed the expectations around the position and that’s not what was quote sold to the candidates. So if and sometimes it happens and it’s nobody’s fault, it’s just how the organization, the direction is moving. And I always recommend just just be up with with your new hire and talk to them and figure out is this the right fit for you? And how can we work with you? So that it can be the right fit and maybe there’s somebody else in the organization where it’s a better fit and you can put this person in a position that will work for them,

[00:35:53.34] spk_1:
but at least be upfront and talking about these things. So we kind of melded a couple of these together. So why don’t you just read through one through six? So it’s clear that we’ve covered everything.

[00:36:20.94] spk_2:
Okay, So the first one is why does the position exist next? Or what are the results or outcomes needed from this position? And I think we just grazed over that one. And one of the things I do want to mention that I didn’t mention earlier related to that question is I’m a big fan of,

[00:36:31.86] spk_1:
I even asked you if there were more

[00:37:51.80] spk_2:
my brain. Okay, so I’m a big fan of result oriented job descriptions and and that means, you know, writing the job description for the results that you’re looking for. So I think this question is really important and sometimes you can get a really great candidate from a different industry who has accomplished something very close to what you’re looking to accomplish from this position. So, so the more clear on what you’re looking for, what, you know what we always ask, what will give this person a great performance evaluation in 90 days, What would they have accomplished for you to say A plus for them in the 1st 90 days and, and and then different segments of, you know, the next time line, so that I just wanted to make sure I cover that. So the next question is, um what skills and experience are needed to do this job successfully? What is specific traits, we call them success traits or attributes that make a person successful in this position. What are the specific you’re set fit in your organizational culture? We’re talking about core values. And then lastly, um why did team members stay with you? And why did they leave

[00:38:34.50] spk_1:
question. What about um salary? Now we’re now we’re jumping outside of discovery. But you and I talked earlier when we were getting to know each other about salary range disclosures, job descriptions, which is becoming so much more important. New york state just passed a law that requires it. Um I thought I had seen that in Oregon too. I might be mistaken about that. You hadn’t heard of that one, but at least we know new york state has, has passed that law and other states are considering it. And just it’s just, it’s a movement apart from whether it’s legal or not legally required

[00:38:39.84] spk_2:
or not right

[00:38:41.58] spk_1:
share your opinion on disclosing salary or arrange a description.

[00:39:28.85] spk_2:
It’s always been a best practice. And now in many states, like you mentioned tony it’s a law. Um, and I think at some point it will probably be a law and in just about all states. The reason for it, there’s, there’s several reasons, but one of the main reasons that’s become a law in a lot of states is because in the past, um, there’s been a lot of bias and discrimination when it comes to pay. When you think about how women have been paid or different cultural groups or background? Exactly. And so if you are not transparent about your salary and you then, because I hear this a lot from employers, well, I don’t, I don’t know what I’m going to pay. We’ll see what the person made before. Well, all that’s doing is contributing to the bad uneven inequitable from the perpetuating. Thank

[00:39:49.71] spk_1:

[00:40:38.04] spk_2:
Right. So what you need to do is think about What can you pay, what do you think the return is for this position that your organization can afford. Um, and what is it worth to the value that’s going to be contributed and and create a range there and don’t make the range 100,000. I usually recommend. I see sometimes do. Exactly. I usually recommend, you know maybe a $10,000 range, maybe a $20,000 range. Um not much more than that. And and you can decide based on what what that person you’re hiring is going to bring, how much training you need to give them. I’m up to speed. Um The other thing is it just waste your time if you’re not transparent

[00:40:43.08] spk_1:

[00:40:43.84] spk_2:
it wastes the jobseeker’s time and it wastes your time because everybody

[00:40:49.11] spk_1:

[00:40:57.37] spk_2:
look at the job and have different thoughts on what it’s going to pay. So I may apply for the job Thinking that it’s going to pay 100,000 and you’re only planning to pay 40,000. And if we don’t get to that until the third interview, well we’ve wasted so much time and it just frustrates both of us so that no

[00:41:13.74] spk_1:
candidate is going to ask about salary in the first interview. Maybe not even in a second if they know there’s another coming

[00:41:24.16] spk_2:
and less candidates are going to apply for your job if they don’t know what because they’re afraid they’re gonna waste their time. And they often feel like

[00:41:31.35] spk_1:

[00:41:31.87] spk_2:
you’re not being transparent with that you might not be transparent with other things as well, so you might not be the right employer for

[00:41:51.70] spk_1:
them. Um And just let’s let’s kind of wrap up with what you are seeing in our sort of trend one or two things that you, you want folks to know about, you know, in this post pandemic hiring environment that we find ourselves,

[00:42:19.05] spk_2:
People are looking for their passion, their looking for, not just the passion connected to the mission that the company that that is a big part of it, but they’re looking for a place they can call home, they’re looking for flexibility. They’re looking for an environment that they’re happy to go to work and it doesn’t matter the

[00:42:26.12] spk_1:
level of

[00:44:01.07] spk_2:
the position. Um Pay is also important. They want to be paid what they feel their worth. And because pay, we’re seeing a big trend and increase of pay. Um uh you know, jobs that have paid one amount for decades are now have, have, we’ve seen large jumps in them. Um but then I’ve seen where candidates have been willing to take a pay cut if it means they could work from home or they could have more flexibility or it’s something that they truly believe in. And I have seen a great trend of candidates of job seekers who have left or actually even gotten laid off during the pandemic from high paying, high pressure jobs that are now saying they want a job in a nonprofit in something that they truly believe in. And they usually have a specific type of nonprofit or type of mission that they have in mind because it’s something important to them specifically. And I’m not saying that there isn’t anyone, but for them individually. And I think the pandemic has really, it’s created this thing in all of us where life short, right? Like it. I want to just do something I want to be contributing in a way that that works for me on both my time and what, what’s important to me. And I think that’s important as you go out and recruit people and as you work with people as well to keep that in mind,

[00:44:10.04] spk_1:
a lot of us have heard from

[00:44:11.95] spk_2:
people who want

[00:44:50.27] spk_1:
to want to now give back. That was even pre pandemic. But I think the pandemic accelerated it being more reflective about their career because of the pandemic people question their own mortality. And in the early days of the pandemic, we didn’t know if, if you were 30 if they could kill you or if you were 75 if it could kill you or or if one was a greater risk than the other. We didn’t know, People were really questioning a lot of things in life and obviously career is enormous. So, um, you know, we, we see so much about nomads, digital nomads traveling the US traveling the world and moving and working from a completely different time zones and completely different atmospheres because they want to have a richer life, but they still need to make some money. So they’re happy to work from wherever, if you’ll allow

[00:45:37.45] spk_2:
it. And if the type of position you have available, if you’re able to think maybe a little outside the box and make it either a hybrid or remove or add some of that flexibility in that is so important to people now and and they because of the pandemic where they saw companies and organizations, they will take,

[00:45:39.73] spk_1:

[00:45:40.02] spk_2:
no, we don’t do that here as an answer. Then there’s then there’s, you know, then that’s not for me. Plus

[00:45:45.80] spk_1:

[00:45:59.01] spk_2:
things started to let up just a little bit during the pandemic was still pretty early on. The question I got over and over again from candidates was what will happen um with this position if if we end up having to shut down again, if we have another pandemic and I haven’t been hearing as much of the past year, but that first year or heard a lot because they do not want to be laid off again, you know, they wanted. So you might want to think about that as well. It’s not just because they want the flexibility. They also want that security that they know if a pandemic hits again, they’ll still be able to make a living.

[00:46:28.27] spk_1:
Okay? We’re in the we’re in the Israeli desert Negev were descending as you

[00:47:00.14] spk_3:
heard going 425 m down underneath the most the worst place on earth, that’s a dead sea. Now the lights that you see on the other side, this is already another country, this is George. The border between Israel and Jordan is exactly in the middle of the day,

[00:47:32.52] spk_1:
I should have said that Michael is originally from Denmark but lives in Israel and as a tour guide here, so with Andrea Hoffer, founder and ceo of Aha recruiting experts, ha underscore recruiting and Aha recruiting experts dot com. Andrea, thank you so much. Real pleasure. Thank you for doing this on a bus in the Israel desert.

[00:47:41.47] spk_2:
It was fun. Thank you in different.

[00:48:02.57] spk_0:
Thank you for hanging in with the weird sound this week. I know it’s up and down and it’s crackly. I really wanted to capture the conversation with Andrea, we’re sitting side by side. And how many shows do I get to record in the Israeli desert and and plus you got to learn about the desert from Michael. So thank you. I know it’s

[00:48:14.13] spk_1:
weird, it’s weird

[00:49:07.45] spk_0:
this week. Thanks very much. Next week. Traven Heckman with his book. Take Heart, Take action. I know last week I said he’d be this week I need an intern if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation, scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for March 7, 2022: Get Off The Recruitment Merry-Go-Round

Teri Beckman: Get Off The Recruitment Merry-Go-Round

When someone leaves your nonprofit, it’s an opportunity to carefully assess, not a time to jump into a hasty job description and post it on LinkedIn. Teri Beckman shares her strategies for thoughtfully recruiting, developing and retaining talent. She’s founder and CEO of HIGOL.



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[00:01:53.84] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with para magnesia if you gave me the false idea that you missed this week’s show, get off the recruitment merry go round when someone leaves your nonprofit, it’s an opportunity to carefully assess, not a time to jump into a hasty job description and posted on linkedin. Terry Beckman shares her strategies for thoughtfully recruiting, developing and retaining talent. She is founder and Ceo of High Goal on tony steak too 22 NTC. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome Terry Beckman to nonprofit radio she has worked in the nonprofit sector for over 30 years, including five years as an executive director. She understands leadership challenges and has been a strategic advisor and consultant, two executive directors and ceos as they grow their organizations, teams and boards. She and her team at high goal help nonprofit leaders, increased revenue and community impact. The company is at high goal dot c o. That is h I G O L for high impact growth oriented leaders and she’s at terry Beckman. Welcome terry.

[00:01:56.54] spk_1:
Hey Tony, it’s great to be here.

[00:02:22.04] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you on nonprofit radio thank you. Thank you. Let’s uh let’s let’s go right in because I think this is a an area where nonprofits could benefit from some, some advice about taking a breath. So let’s say someone has just given two weeks notice. What do we do,

[00:02:22.84] spk_1:
what do you do? Yeah, it’s nice when you get two weeks notice right? Sometimes

[00:02:28.17] spk_0:
That doesn’t happen or you can make it three days or 24 hours. But I was trying to, I thought I was trying to give like an average

[00:02:42.14] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah or I quit now. I had a client who, she had a team of 10 people and five of them left in one week. Either they were fired or they left on their own and oh

[00:02:46.79] spk_0:
Gosh, okay, well I did, I quit a job with 24 hours notice once

[00:02:50.24] spk_1:
if you get

[00:03:13.24] spk_0:
Mad enough, you know. Yeah. The last job I had, I quit it with 24 hours notice. That was 19. No, it was 2003. I am I certain that I would be a lousy employee. You wouldn’t want to onboard me, you don’t want to retain me off boarding me in the interview. We compress, yeah. With me, you compress the whole compress the whole cycle, you could on board, you could, you

[00:03:18.27] spk_1:
could, you

[00:03:25.14] spk_0:
could interview on board and off board being in like an hour and a half, you know, would put your, put your practice out of work but it would accelerate the cycle at least there’d be a lot of,

[00:03:37.64] spk_1:
yeah, it’s, you know, some of us are meant to be entrepreneurs but you know, most of us are

[00:03:46.14] spk_0:
not. So that’s what I’d be a lousy employee. Yeah, vacation request forms and you know, please could I have christmas day off? All right. All right. So let’s go to this. Uh, let’s go to the reasonable hypothetical. You got two weeks.

[00:03:52.11] spk_1:
Yeah. You have two weeks notice.

[00:03:54.60] spk_0:
What do you want folks

[00:04:53.64] spk_1:
to do? Yeah. Well, the first thing actually, you know, for Executive directors, typically this ends up on their plate in some shape or form, right? For the other 95%. And um, you know, the first thing I advise folks is just to take a deep breath. Like you really don’t have to panic. You don’t have to panic. Um, even though I’m sure whoever has, you know, resigned has a to do list 10 miles long. And of course your biggest fear is that’s going to become your to do list. Right? But that’s a, you know, it’s really, that’s a short term problem. And um, so the first thing really is to take a deep breath. And I think that in a way the very first question is, you know, do you, do you really still need this position? It’s the first question and you know, if that’s not clear, maybe the, you know, maybe the, the job as it was, you know, originally constituted doesn’t make sense anymore for the organization.

[00:05:06.92] spk_0:
So, you know, like, All right. So I’m gonna encapsulate that as don’t stress assess.

[00:05:12.34] spk_1:
There you go. I like that. Yeah, good for

[00:05:32.94] spk_0:
you. If I could think of something wrong with you gotta think of something to write with panic. I’d say don’t panic and do something else, but I couldn’t think of anything wrong with panic, but don’t stress assess maybe the job isn’t needed, but you had someone in the job. So isn’t that doesn’t that de facto mean by the Yeah, well forget by default, doesn’t that the fact don’t mean the job is needed? We had somebody in it.

[00:05:37.64] spk_1:
No, that doesn’t mean that

[00:05:39.24] spk_0:
needed. Yeah.

[00:07:04.94] spk_1:
Yeah. So, you know, I think, I think to answer that question also, it’s nice to just take a breath again and ask yourself, you know, is my vision clear for the organization for the next 12 months? Like where where do I really want to bring the organization in the next 12 months? Where’s the potential where opportunities and then yeah, if that’s clear, then you can really, Really look at how does this position contribute to bringing the organization to that point over the next 12 months, then you’re you’re, you know, you then you’re sort of stepping out of the kind of the panic cycle, right of someone leaving and getting much more strategic about, you know, time and money and skills, right? Which is this great resource in a sense that you have to be able to rehire. Um and and really looking at Yeah. What given these resources, how would, how could, how would I like to best deploy that to really help me leverage where I want to go over the next 12 months. I think that’s ultimately the question and that might be the same job, right? The person that’s leaving and maybe, maybe it’s not, maybe it’s slightly different, Maybe it’s a completely different job. You know, the other thing that can come up is also looking at the orc chart, right? And this is especially true. Wait,

[00:07:27.04] spk_0:
I’m going to stop before we go to the chart. Yeah, we’ll get to the orC chart. Okay, I promise. But so, so you’re suggesting, like, maybe there are things that this this job could encompass that the previous person wasn’t doing, or maybe some of these things are better done elsewhere, and maybe this has been in the back of your mind or

[00:08:56.14] spk_1:
all of those things, or maybe, you know, maybe it hasn’t been in the back of your mind, but, you know, sometimes when, you know, we we stay stuck in patterns with people, right? Like, okay, this is my job, leave me alone and let me do it. And they kind of do it reasonably well. But, you know, that’s what happens. You know, organizations are living are living organisms, really, and so their, you know, their environment is changing, they’re changing the dynamics within the organization, is changing the board is changing all of these things that there’s fluidity to them, especially coming out of the pandemic, right? There’s a tremendous amount of change that’s happened over the last couple of years. Um and so it could very well be that this position was not is not Really best focused and aligned with what your current needs are. You know, and like you said, two could be that this person, you know, maybe they’re doing things that could be even outsourced for less money so that, you know, low value kinds of repeating activities so that, you know, in the next incarnation, they could be focused on activities that are really bringing a lot more value to the organization. Those are, yeah, those are questions you can ask around that as well, you know, I just feel like every time there is someone leaves, it’s a great opportunity just to do a little refresh to see how does this position align with where we’re really headed as an organization.

[00:09:33.84] spk_0:
Alright, so don’t stress, assess, take a breath That that 10 mile long to do list, right? I mean, it can be uh maybe some of it can be delegated. I mean, if it’s, if it’s, if it’s a database person, you know, you’re not going to be, you’re not gonna be querying the database for the next mailing, you’re gonna, right, okay, so take a look at, you know, so you have to have a conversation with the person, understand what is coming, right?

[00:10:30.24] spk_1:
Yes, yes. That’s, you know, that’s certainly another piece of it, right? It’s kind of preparing that person to leave. So there’s the forward looking piece of like, okay, what do we want to do with this position moving forward and then there’s the backward looking piece which is equally important. So knowing what is coming up, what’s the price, you know, what does this person see as a priority? What, you know, what does their to do list look like? You know? And then also, I think naturally leads to the exit interview as well, um where the person has a chance to really honestly share, you know, their insights about the organization and you know what they see the strengths being, where they see the weaknesses. Um if there’s if there are other, you know, people leave organizations for all kinds of reasons, it’s helpful if they could really be honest with you or if you have an HR person about, you know, why, why are they leaving? It’s always it’s always very helpful to know that more clearly

[00:11:08.54] spk_0:
that I still have the orchestra in mind, we’re going back to the heart. But the the exit interview, I mean, that’s isn’t that hard for the ceo to to conduct because he or she may be the reason that the person is leaving or if they’re not the direct reason, you know, if the person is unhappy and they’re unhappy with the organization generally or with their job? I mean, it ultimately feeds up into the ceo you know, what level of honesty are you likely to get when it’s Yeah,

[00:11:28.44] spk_1:
yeah. I think it depends on the circumstance. Um, certainly that can be the case that, you know, especially if there’s tension with the ceo of the executive director, it could be that it might be better suited for someone else in the organization to do the exit interview. So that creates a little bit more safety, um, for the person leaving. That could be the case as

[00:11:40.84] spk_0:
well. Um, Alright, so the organ chart, you want us to look at the Yeah. As we’re not stressing, we’re assessing, Right. Right. What’s, what’s the role of the orchid chart here?

[00:13:18.24] spk_1:
Well, so that, yes, that goes back towards sort of the forward facing again, right, assessing? Um, mm hmm. It’s a similar question. Right. So is the ORC chart, you know, isn’t where we need it to be given, where we want to go in the future, Right. Or does is this an opportunity to tweak the ORC chart a little bit and to, to really think about, you know, if we were ideally organized, what might that look like? And again, I think if you if you’re facing more than one, the person leaving, then obviously there’s more flexibility and kind of really looking at the org chart, but I, I think that’s always worth a look, you know, that’s always worth a look in the assessment, You know, does it make sense if you’re going to be changing the job description, does it make sense that this person reporting up through the right, you know, the right supervisor, for example, through the right thing. Um Yeah, so I think that’s that’s always good to look at. And in the earlier example I gave of the client who lost half her team. Yeah. One thing we talked about it, all 10 of them were reporting to her, which just was too, too many people. So part of what we we did was create a middle layer, right? Where, you know, so she had no more than four people reporting to her and just gave her a little bit of a buffer because that was very

[00:13:19.66] spk_0:
10 direct reports. I’m not sure anybody. I’m not sure anybody should have that.

[00:13:23.86] spk_1:
No, it was too many. So, you know, that was that was a chance to look at her or charts. So it just, it depends, you know, on the circumstance, but it’s a it’s a good thing to have a look at. I think when someone leaves

[00:13:41.24] spk_0:
With, with with 50% of that person’s staff leaving, uh was your client the problem.

[00:15:07.44] spk_1:
Um you know? Yes and no. So one thing that um she took the time to do at that point was to really create their core operating principles. So she, you know, took some time to create five core operating principles and this was super helpful. It was really um gave the made it very clear upfront that this is who we are, and this is how we operate. And it really was very tied into value statements, right? Like this, this is the way we will treat our clients, these are, you know, these are our principles in a sense, in terms of how we work. Um, and because she had team members that were not aligned with those core operating principles, it was definitely part of the problem. And so there was huge tension there. Um, so working on that, you know, and we’re gonna kind of start leaking into the job description, we wanted to put up front in the job description really, and we have done work on this as well as a clear vision and mission for the organization. And then those core operating principles, so that whoever’s, you know, whoever applies that is the very, very first thing you read. Um, and there’s discussion about that in the interview, so that, you know, there’s real alignment when people are coming on board, they really understand that this organization stands for certain things and if you’re not comfortable with that, this isn’t going to be the right place for you,

[00:16:37.94] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, they have a free webinar coming up crisis communications, you ought to have a plan or at least the outline of a plan and that’s what they’re gonna cover in this free webinar, they will take you step by step through a crisis communications plan or protocol if you like the like the more State department sounding crisis communications you want to be prepared. I don’t even want to go through the possibilities of you know that that a crisis could uh could look like I think we know enough about yeah we know enough about that. You want to be prepared. They’re free webinar is on March 24 naturally if you can’t attend live you get the recording so you sign up they’ll send you the link to the recording and where do you sign up at turn hyphen two dot c o slash webinars. Now back to get off the recruitment merry go round. You you started to talk about, you started to mention you just mentioned that the attributes of the job. How does that I mean they need to be aligned with where you see the organization going to definitely be aligned with your organization. Chart. What what else, what

[00:16:53.94] spk_1:
else? Yeah. Yeah. So you know most job descriptions that I read are elongated to do list. That’s what they would say. Well there’s

[00:17:13.14] spk_0:
the responsibilities and the and the qualifications basically introduction about the about what what the organization does that is the key responsibilities and of course the last one is always and other duties as assigned

[00:17:16.59] spk_1:

[00:17:35.34] spk_0:
You could have just you could just put that you could just have the job, the key, the key responsibilities one bullet everything we tell you to do. You know, you do, you need to do it again, condensing condensing down. But um, and, and then there’s the, and then there’s the skills, skills required, skills optional skills, preferred skills required,

[00:17:41.04] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. And experience. Right. Right. Right.

[00:17:45.27] spk_0:
All right. You don’t care for that.

[00:20:31.24] spk_1:
Well, I wouldn’t say that those things are not important, but they are, we give those things way more important. I think in the hiring process than is actually the case in terms of what will produce, you know, a highly productive, highly engaged person that has the skills you need and we’ll be there for a long time. Like putting all the emphasis on the to do list man and especially post covid that is not the way to go. In my experience. Um, you know, people are really tired of being treated like widgets. I think that’s a big part of what we’re seeing in the great resignation and the great, great resignation is certainly affecting the nonprofit sector as well. Um, and so what I would, I would I suggest is folks, I think you’re gonna have plenty of time to develop to do list. Right? That’s really not a problem. The, the, the, the, the thing that I encourage people to think about job descriptions is it’s a marketing tool. This is a way to attract the right people to your organization that are going to be committed to it that see it as more than a job, right? That see it as something that they they have a role in creating something that is bigger than the sum of its parts essentially bigger than themselves. Um, and this is, you know, I I think people, this is we’re really craving for this now as a culture and a society for deeper meaning in our work again, you know, this is what is really getting reflected in in in folks who are part of this great resignation. And so um, you know, like as I said, we we I like to see people start with mission. Mission vision corp takes some time to develop core principles and then you get into the meat of the particular job description. But I want to I like to see folks right? The job description from the perspective of helping the applicant understand how will this role play a part in helping the organization meet its vision. Like what’s how are they contributing to that? Right. How are they contributing to the bigger picture? A lot of stuff that’s never discussed even. You know, again, we just kind of like hire people like we buy toilet paper. I mean at least that’s what we’ve done in the past. Um, and you know, you just put yourself in a real competitive disadvantage doing that. Um,

[00:20:32.20] spk_0:
I’m not sure which is more scarce sometimes toilet paper or the people or labor. Yeah,

[00:20:38.34] spk_1:
it’s true. Yeah, that’s really true. They’re both really scarce, aren’t they?

[00:20:57.54] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m sure you would say that it’s right. You’re smart to hold out for the right candidate. Not just take somebody who you know is pretty close. You know they came early. I’ve got this job. I got to fill it. You want us to hold out for the right Absolutely. Mission and values. Core principles.

[00:22:26.34] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean in an ideal world the Ceo or executive director is not talking to anybody except the final applicants that rise to that level. You know, honestly, even if you don’t have an HR function, I strongly encourage that you get a hiring buddy. You know hiring partner, someone in the organization that’s going to help you with the hiring process. And um, that can really help weed out all the folks who are not going to be a good fit, right? And and and attract the folks who are going to be a good fit. So um, one thing that’s really nice to do I like doing is having an application that folks fill out in addition to providing you with a resume where you’re asking them questions up front in the application. Um, Again, you want to put all that good juicy stuff up front around your vision mission. The core values. You can put that there in the application and then ask the questions. Um, you know, I would, I would like to see people ask questions around culture and mission honestly. And uh and and this helps to first to know that gives it really telegraphs quickly to the applicants that you’re serious about that. Um

[00:22:38.44] spk_0:
The other like what like what how would you how do you ask questions around culture? Are you committed? Are you committed to or we’re committed to something or you like Yes, check yes or no or or I’m I’m oversimplifying.

[00:24:35.94] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know like again it depends a little bit on the organization and its values. But let me give you some examples of questions that I’ve seen in applications. So one is, you know, what is your commitment to um professional growth as an individual? What’s your commitment to that? Um How do you see, you know how do you see your um yeah. You know your individual growth contributing to the wider organization? Um what is what attracted you to our organization? Why do you want to work for us? Um um what’s you know, how how important is collaboration to you? You know, you can ask questions if you want to have a strong collaborative team, you can ask questions around collaboration. Um how closely have you collaborated with others? Can you give me an example where you were working on a team project? And there was miscommunication around the direction that the project was going. What did you do? How did you handle it? Those kinds of things? So it it causes people to stop and actually have to think right about how they would handle something like that and what’s most important to them this process. I mean first of all, a good number of people will never fill out the application, right? Because they’re not really serious about the job or they’ll fill it out in a very cursory way right there, kind of half fill it out and they’ll give one or two quite, you know, kind of three sentence answers kinds of things or three word answers I should say. Um and so those, it’s just easy that way. It’s like, no, no, no, don’t know. And then folks who are sincerely engaging with the application, they’re serious, right? They’re serious about the job,

[00:25:05.24] spk_0:
right? So, so it serves a screening purpose, but also you’re even just starting to onboard the person you are, you’re showing them what’s important and you’re making sure that they’re aligned with with with, with that culture with. Yeah. All right. So it has a practical purpose as well as uh practical immediate purpose as well as a midterm purpose for for helping screen and on board and on board I should say that’s the that’s the midterm.

[00:25:10.20] spk_1:
It is, it’s the beginning of the on boarding

[00:25:12.07] spk_0:
socialize them to the organization. Yeah, I love that tony

[00:26:36.64] spk_1:
I thought of it that way, but that’s very true. Yeah, yeah. And then I like to see your hiring buddy is handling the applications right? Um if if at all possible. So you want to make sure that you’re on the same page with that person about the culture that you’re trying to create in the organization. And that’s really kind of a culture test. Um you know, based some, you know, basic skills are important, but you want to remember that skills and experience are actually the thing that we can get the fastest, like a person’s motivation and um kind of their, you know, Yeah, their motivations and their preferences. Those things don’t change very quickly, but skills and experience, we really, in a year’s time, you can gain a lot of skills and experience if you’re very focused right? In in in something. So, I mean, you can’t obviously become a brain surgeon in a year if you’re hiring a brain surgeon, but there’s a lot, I mean, given our information age, there’s an awful lot of experience and knowledge that people can gain really pretty quickly. Um of course it’s it’s great if you can get someone who has solid experience that you can benefit from. But I just, I feel like we really give that a little bit too much weight. Um okay,

[00:27:08.24] spk_0:
let’s talk a little about some diversity and equity in the, in the job description. Uh, you know, there’s there’s there’s a focus now on, you know, less traditional education, but, but life experience being enormously valuable and equivalent to formal education? How do we how do we convey that? And also, you know, how do we encourage communities of color, underrepresented folks, you know, to apply for what may look like an all white organization?

[00:30:54.24] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a really, really good question. Really good question. Um I always like to see um an affirmative statement in that regard. Um you know, in in the job advertisement for sure. You can also put it on the application something to the extent that you you know, you your organization really values inclusion and that people from all backgrounds are very welcome to apply. And so this gives essentially um you know, this is a signal to folks from different backgrounds that they’re welcome there, you know, that they’re welcome to apply. So that’s I think one thing that can be very helpful. Um and I think, yeah, you know this this idea that life experience has real value as well is certainly true. Um It depends on the obviously to the position that you’re hiring for. But if you think carefully about the qualities, this is another piece actually. That’s really important. If you think about the qualities that are required when you’re doing the job? Like the the patterning that’s involved when you’re doing the job. For example, does the job require a lot of research? Um Does your job require a lot of follow through or does the job require you to sort of sort through bureaucracy quickly and find a solution to things, right? Which is a little different than follow through. It’s like kind of the other end, does it require that you be fast on your feet and be able to kind of speak to people that may be comfortable speaking to people that you don’t know. Um and and be asked questions that you’re not going to know ahead of time, those kinds of things or is it more of a position where you know, you’re um ensuring um that the organization doesn’t take too many risks that it you know, that it doesn’t fix what’s not broken, you know, like accounting for example, you know, might be more in that realm, you know, these are these are ways of behaving in jobs that are actually um we are wired to to act in different ways just by virtue of who we are and everybody is wired a little bit differently in terms of how they do their job when they’re striving. And I’m sort of giving you some examples of of different kinds of patterning. So um it can be very helpful to also put that in the job description and there are some assessments that also will help that can really help you be able to measure things like that, but just to think carefully through that right? Like and that also will attract, you know, for example, if the job requires a lot of follow through if it’s really a process or repeating process that you’re asking someone to manage. You know, you want to put that kind of language into your advertising and into the, you know, into the job description so that you attract people that have that quality. Um And of course that has nothing to do with education or experience necessarily. It’s more how people are wired to work. If that makes sense. As we become more aware of that. We also tend to get a wider diversity of folks applying because it has nothing to do with, you know, um with any kind of physically born attributes like gender or race or ethnicity. Does that make sense?

[00:31:27.54] spk_0:
Yeah. Um Well, you know, it also raises the question of um salary ranges for for equity. There’s there’s there’s a lot of concerned that not putting a salary in uh salary range um discourages folks or disadvantage is folks who might end up being offered a lower salary because because of their background, you know, because of their their skin color or their background. Yeah, putting a salary range in you like that as well.

[00:33:14.74] spk_1:
I do like to see that. Yeah, I definitely like to see that. I think that that does create um that does create more equity. It’s not, you know, it’s not to say that you’re going to pay everybody the same because you’re not um And pay, Yeah. And pay, you know, pay needs to be very much accorded to value, right? The value that’s being created in the position. Um So I think it’s totally fair game. You know, to pay fundraisers potentially more than you might pay somebody else. Um, you know, that’s, I think totally reasonable, but where the, where the equity thing comes into play. And I have seen this where organizations have not posted salary ranges and they will, they will get an applicant in this honestly, particularly well. I think it happens with race and gender certainly happens with gender. You know, they’ll get somebody. And I remember an executive director saying to me, man, I think she’s, you know, she’s given us writing examples and she’s going to be the communications manager and I can get her for $15,000 less than the guy who left. And he jumped on that. And there was no salary range posted, you know, and now that, you know, especially the nonprofit sector, it takes a long time Right to make up $15,000 cap like that. She’ll have to jump organizations to do it. Um, and if they’re, if they’re bringing the value right, then it’s worth the investment in that person. And it’s worth, it’s worth it really, is it is worth it to be equitable because that means she won’t have to jump right to actually meet the value that she’s creating.

[00:33:29.64] spk_0:
She probably knows that people know if they’re being lowballed too. I think, I think people have a sense of that. And you know, it’s just sometimes,

[00:33:55.14] spk_1:
and sometimes not, you know, especially young people, you know, and I don’t know sometimes, and sometimes I think especially if you’ve been trapped in in low salary bands which you know, I think my people of color and women have been for a long time. You don’t necessarily, you know, it’s just tricky. It’s just really tricky.

[00:33:57.24] spk_0:
You think people don’t generally know then that there

[00:34:14.94] spk_1:
I don’t think that they yeah, that they’re being undervalued. No. And it’s sort of the sense of like I’ve been undervalued for so long that you don’t and on some level you don’t you don’t necessarily, you know, it feels normal I guess.

[00:34:21.84] spk_0:
You know that we have what you started right? The normalizing of of of pay disparity.

[00:34:24.18] spk_1:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean I think it has been normalized

[00:34:34.04] spk_0:
maybe you know, maybe I was projecting my own. I mean I I have a good sense of what I’d be worth, not that I want employment. You know, we’ve talked about that you made that clear. I’m not

[00:34:41.74] spk_1:
right. Yeah. Yeah. I know. But I imagine you do have a good sense of what you’re worth, but I’ve done in the past

[00:34:46.73] spk_0:
But I’m also a white guy who’s 60 years old. So you know, I know what my value is to clients as well as to potential employee employers, but only the former is

[00:34:59.31] spk_1:

[00:35:24.64] spk_0:
Alright let’s let’s go to some on boarding besides you know we uh we said that the job description is sort of an entree to on boarding as you’re as you’re exposing, socializing, inculcating people too important in the organization and where it’s headed. But what, what’s more more formal on boarding do you like to see in? Yeah six months is on boarding? six months. Is it six

[00:36:01.93] spk_1:
weeks? Oh man, it’s so nice if it could be six months, you know, if that’s unusual I would say. Um there was a, there was a company in the Research Triangle Park. It was a startup pharma company that has now been brought up by some huge thing. But they were so intentional in their on boarding that they literally, they didn’t hire anybody and give them a job. They completely hired based on cultural aspects that we’ve been talking about and then they spent six months in kind of the university of the, of the company just, you know, just like immersing them in the culture and the values of the organization. And then at the end of six months they evaluated where they should go in terms of a job

[00:36:23.93] spk_0:
that’s, that sounds extraordinary, valuable. Extraordinarily valuable but very not practical

[00:36:26.18] spk_1:
for non small non profit. No, but they created huge value,

[00:36:31.23] spk_0:
huge value.

[00:38:47.92] spk_1:
Absolutely. Yeah. And it was reflected in their market value as well and what they mean just the quality of what the, the work that they were doing. So that’s obviously like way gold standards, we’re not gonna be able to do that and most probably any nonprofit. But um, so it gives you a sense though of really how important it is and that it certainly should be more than just throwing the employee manual down on the desk if you have one, that’s not enough. Right. That is, that is really not enough. First is, do you have an employee manual? Many nonprofits don’t. So that’s kind of a whole nother topic, but it’s, it’s very nice to have your processes, your procedures, you know, your policies written down in some shape or form so that, you know, you’re starting to some assurances around equity and treating people fairly right. That is, that is important. And that is something. So let’s say that you do have that, that’s something to spend some time with the person with. Not just ask them to read it and sign it, but to actually walk through it and talk to them about what does that mean on a day to day basis? What do these things mean for us? The other thing I really love, um, for there to be and you can plan this over several weeks. It doesn’t have to be like all in the first day, but taking the time to really make the introductions for a new employee. Like it’s great if you know what? There are one or two board members who are willing to serve on kind of the on boarding committee, so to speak. You know, maybe this is part of your governance committee, something that they do where they get to meet members of the board and understand that there is a board, there is a governance board and you know, have some personal, a little bit of personal interaction with a couple of board members can be very inspirational right from, you know, then they can talk about what drew them to the organization, why they volunteer their um, meeting volunteers is another one. If your organization has volunteers certainly needing the staff right? Taking the time for that person to spend a few minutes with with um, each staff member is at all feasible. Is it is another really great way for people to start to get comfortable, right? Because then you, you have a name with the email and that kind of thing.

[00:40:44.51] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two, it’s time to register for 22 N. T. C. You heard AMY sample ward talk about the conference last week on the show. I’m not sure, I’m not sure that the biggest feature is 180 Workshops that you’ll get the video links to, you know, that you can, that you can, if you can consume that much. I think she said the record was 50 some last year that that somebody watched. I’m not sure that’s, I’m not sure that’s the biggest feature that’s big, you know, 180 different topics to choose from. All smart speakers. You know, that’s why this is the only conference that I affiliate with On nonprofit radio I’ll be capturing 25 or 30 different interviews from the conference speakers. But you know, it’s more the it’s the vibe. It’s the the inclusivity, the planning that they do that make, it’s not just their planning because you could do planning and it could still suck but it’s a planning that makes it fun. It’s a it’s a lively place. I’m looking forward to next year’s which will be back in person. But even virtual they put a lot of thought they’re very intentional about the feel the vibe of non profit technology conference. So I recommend it March 23 – 25. You register at 10:10.org if you want to see what people are talking about. Of course there’s the hashtag 22 N. T. C. I recommend it. I hope you’ll be there. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time

[00:40:48.45] spk_1:
for get

[00:41:11.11] spk_0:
off the recruitment merry, go round with terry Beckman and probably better done one on one or maybe two on one and this is the staff. Okay, everybody introduce yourself to the new employee. Okay, new employee, tell us about yourself. Okay everybody sign off now you know, go back it’s all done in an hour. You know, you don’t get to know, you don’t get to know folks that way, especially in a in a virtual workspace.

[00:41:16.41] spk_1:
Especially in a virtual workspace. Right?

[00:41:18.72] spk_0:
But even so you know, you want one on one. You want one on one or maybe two on one.

[00:41:23.35] spk_1:
Yeah, we’re starting to build relationships, right? Yeah.

[00:41:27.78] spk_0:
You live what, what, what do you have family? What? You know what movies? You know, what do you love music? You know, what do you do when you’re not with us? Yeah.

[00:41:38.61] spk_1:
All of that. Yeah. But what about the idea of real exchange?

[00:41:42.07] spk_0:
I’m sorry, what

[00:41:42.97] spk_1:
I said there can be a real exchange.

[00:41:54.11] spk_0:
Yeah, for sure. Right? Spend an hour getting to know somebody. Yeah. Um what about the idea of like an onboarding buddy? Maybe not so much a mentor, but somebody that, so I have one person I can ask. How do we do that? Well how do I get access to the shared documents? You know, I feel stupid. But you know, I can’t get the wifi to work on my company laptop or you know, whatever.

[00:42:06.50] spk_1:
Right? Yeah. Somebody that can point you point the new person in the right direction.

[00:42:10.62] spk_0:

[00:42:37.80] spk_1:
I was, that was the next thing I was gonna say is to have like an an on boarding buddy who’s who’s willing to do that. And that can be a really nice function that can rotate right around the organization and anybody at any level can do that. Right? So it’s a, it’s a really nice way also of just kind of leveling the field in a way that everybody can have a role in in bringing on new people, which is really, you know, very nice and, and helps, I think in, in just continuing to create that, the stronger bonds across your team,

[00:42:46.20] spk_0:
anything else we should be talking about onboarding before we move to keeping people.

[00:44:31.69] spk_1:
Um, I would say that that may be the most important thing is to have, you know, think through the on boarding process, I think we’ve given folks some really good ideas, um, but to think through it and write it down so that it becomes an actual process in your process, you know, um and then it’ll then it’s much more likely to actually get done, so right down the steps, the timing on it, how long the onboarding process will last, Maybe it’s a couple of weeks, you know, and then the cadence of the different things like every couple of days or whatever. There are different meetings that this person is exposed to. Um the last piece probably tony that I would say and, and this bleeds into the next topic is um, with their supervisor to set some really clear goals for their 1st 90 days, so that, you know, there’s no misunderstanding the employee knows where to focus and um there’s no miscommunication that the supervisor, well you may be disappointed, but there’s a much higher chance of success if you’re both on the same page around what you, you know, what, what do you expect from this person in their 1st 90 days and then at 90 days, talk about it, right? So, You know, and it’s, it’s really nice actually to even have little check ins right? You say even 30 days around those goals, every you know, so that if the person is having trouble or they’re not quite focused, right? Or they have questions around those goals, they have a chance to ask you and that can just provide, you know, a really smooth um kind of, you’re really kind of greasing the skids for that person’s success coming

[00:44:44.19] spk_0:
in. It’s also scheduled devoted time with the, with the new supervisor, which should be at least monthly, I would say. Maybe maybe every other week.

[00:45:16.79] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely, it depends. I think a little on your structure and hopefully if you’re a manager, you have a schedule of one on ones not, you know, I shouldn’t assume that because I’m always surprised that people are not meeting one on one with people that report to them, but I am, this is, I’m assuming a little bit that you have a schedule for doing that right? Maybe it’s every other week. Um yeah, I like that cadence myself. Um, but this, this would be um kind of extra meetings or maybe a little bit longer of a meeting monthly to really focus in on those goals.

[00:45:41.09] spk_0:
Um Yeah, very good, excellent advice. Um seeing the onboarding and retaining on boarding. Okay. We started to bleed into uh keeping, yeah, keeping your good folks.

[00:47:02.18] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great topic. I think, you know, keeping good people is all about your relationship with them, you know, um, and their alignment with your vision of where you want to take the organization. So, you know, if you, if you’re clear about the vision and you know, even if you’re not the executive director and you’re the supervisor, you know, you still need to have a vision for your team, right? Even if somebody else is setting the bigger vision, you want to have a vision for your team. Um, and you know, depending on what it is, maybe it’s, you know, we’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna have, you know, we’re, we have, we have great customer client satisfaction, Right? And we respond to clients, we want to consistently respond to clients within 24 hours or you know, whatever it is. You know, if you, you have kind of a vision and standards for your team, that’s really important to develop in your own mind and then to be able to share that clearly right with your team. Um, and then it’s, it’s all about developing and supporting the people that are working for you to meet those bigger goals. Um, and I think that those are, that is why one on one meetings are important so that you really understand what it is. They need to be successful in meeting the goals. Um, and and being able to get them the resources they need to do that work

[00:47:19.18] spk_0:
resources including professional development budget, right?

[00:47:22.71] spk_1:

[00:47:23.41] spk_0:
want to sponsor? You want to be supporting your folks for classes conferences. I don’t know, certifications.

[00:48:10.47] spk_1:
So they keep learning. Yeah. And, and understanding to what are their goals? What are their professional development goals? You know, maybe would they do they aspire to become a manager one day or an executive director one day, um, and, and encouraging that? Right? So that we’re not, you know, then we’re then we’re actually getting off the merry go round, right, when we were starting to develop actually, a pipeline of folks within the organization that want to grow up in the organization. That, you know, want to have bigger roles and um, creating a pathway for them to be able to do that, you know, is that’s really the ultimate,

[00:48:45.27] spk_0:
it’s a, it’s investment in the, in the person. It shows that there’s promise, uh, there’s a future for the person in the organization, make, you know, these things all make it less likely that they’ll leave. I mean, they may still leave, but if they, if they, if they feel supported, they see a future in the organization for them for their own growth, both in responsibility and salary. You know, they’re, they’re less likely to leave will be explicit, you know, you want to, you want to lay that out. Not when they, when they say, you know, then they give the two weeks notice you you know right at the secret plan but

[00:48:53.62] spk_1:
you don’t know the secret.

[00:49:05.97] spk_0:
Yeah there’s a growth development plan. You’re gonna miss out on all this. Yeah right. That’s not the time. Um At what point maybe maybe I’m you know you’re stuck with a lackluster host. I’m sorry maybe this is going back to on boarding. But

[00:49:09.97] spk_1:
that’s the point

[00:49:10.94] spk_0:
at what point should you or should should there be should there be a formal point at which we say yes, this relationship is working? No, this relationship is not working. Yeah. That should that should there be a formal like I think it’s a probationary period or something like that.

[00:51:12.36] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a good question. That is a really good question. And I have seen Organisations have formal like a 90 day, You know that’s it is a little bit implied in that, right? So you’re setting the expectations for this is what we expect in 90 days. Yeah. Yeah. And you can be even more explicit and you can say, you know this is this is a trial in a sense. We’re gonna, for both of us we’re gonna we’re gonna see how this goes in 90 days and then we’ll evaluate, I mean you’re kind of doing that right? Anyway um you know, so there’s a couple of questions that kind of come to my mind is from that like so what if they’re not meeting, You know what if they’re not meeting their goals in 90 days and I think, you know, if if you’ve been meeting with them monthly and you’ve been talking about it and you’re giving them the support they need, but you’re sort of sensing like, mm mm mm mm they’re not able to do this like they’re not fully engaged or they’re distracted for some reason. You know, it’s whatever is going on. Um, you know, you’re, what’s really good is you’re having the opportunity to regularly have open honest conversations about it. And then when you get to the 90 days, if there’s really some clear gaps you know, I think that’s an opportunity for, um, you know, a more honest conversation that maybe, you know, maybe this isn’t the right fit. Um, and, and they may, They probably will also sense that, right. They may sense that also at 90 days, maybe this isn’t really the right fit for me. Um,

[00:51:16.76] spk_0:
plead where they plead though, I can do better. Give me another 90 days. I I swear I can do better

[00:51:22.14] spk_1:

[00:51:37.66] spk_0:
Any, without any concrete reason why they didn’t, like, you know, if there was illness, you know, there was something in the family, it was a crisis, you know, putting that aside, there was no real reason why they didn’t they didn’t measure up in the 90 days, they’re pleading for another 90, right? Well, I need the job. I can do it

[00:53:41.55] spk_1:
Right? I think another 90 is probably too long. You know, if you were really in that situation because that then puts you at six months with somebody who may not work out. Um of course it depends on the situation and you’ll want at that point, you know, you’ll want to be talking to other professionals about that situation, right? So if you have an HR person in your team, you want to be talking to them. Um if you don’t have an HR person, you want to be talking to the executive director um the best um executive directors honestly, or the best organizations have very solid relationships with employment attorneys so that, you know what the laws are in your state doesn’t mean that you have to do anything in particular necessarily. But if you do move towards potentially terminating somebody, you wanna, you know, you want to know what, what the rules of the road around that are right before you enter into those waters. That is very important. Um for especially for um this is also, you know, a lesson that is a very painful one for people to learn. You know, if you’re if you’re hiring at a senior level, right? So if you’re aboard hiring an executive director or if you have like a, you know, a chief operating officer or Chief HR marketing marketing person, yeah, Director of Development, anybody at that level. You know, when they come on, you’re gonna want to have um, agreements around um, you know, non um, that they’re not going to speak badly about the organization when they leave and that the, and that they’re not going to take sensitive information out of the organization, essentially. So that should be part of the agreement that they signed when they’re hired. Um,

[00:53:47.22] spk_0:

[00:53:48.75] spk_1:
when they leave and they’re unhappy, that inevitably happen. Well, not inevitably, but that can often happen that they’re kind of trashing the organization. They’re going to donors saying bad things like you want all of that to be an agreement up front that they are not allowed to do that. And it’s a binding legal agreement that you can have a lawyer read a letter if they start doing stuff

[00:54:10.74] spk_0:
like that. Especially I haven’t thought about that. But especially talking to donors, right? Maybe talking to board

[00:54:19.54] spk_1:
members. Yes. Yes.

[00:54:24.64] spk_0:
I guess volunteers could, you know, volunteers could be just as serious. Yeah, Bad mouthing.

[00:55:47.54] spk_1:
Bad mouth generally no bad mouthing. Like, and it’s mutual. So the organization doesn’t bad mouth the employee that’s leaving and the employee doesn’t bad mouth the organization, it goes both ways. Um, so that’s, yeah, that’s important to standardize, especially when you’re hiring at a higher level, you know, for, for other levels. It may be not less necessary. I mean, you can just, you have to sort of evaluate that right across the organizational structure. Um, but you still obviously, you want to, you know, be aware of what the laws are in your state and um guidance from an attorney around how to handle terminations if it comes to that. But I think, you know, if, and again it really so depends on the situation, but if you get to 90 days and you feel like this isn’t really a good fit, you know? Um I would, you know, and somebody is wanting more time and you know, so you have to use your judgment around that too, right? Do I want to give them another month? I wouldn’t go more than 30 days, though right before you seriously evaluate again and you would want to be very clear about what you’d want to see change right in that period of time. And if it doesn’t, if it doesn’t change, then, you know, then it’s probably time to um to let them go. Um But you know,

[00:55:49.84] spk_0:
well then we’re back where we started with uh

[00:55:52.94] spk_1:
yeah, we

[00:55:53.67] spk_0:
are back where we started. Don’t don’t don’t stress assess.

[00:56:30.43] spk_1:
Yes. Yeah. And hopefully, hopefully you’ve gone through a process where, you know, you developed a pretty strong pool of applicants, so maybe some of them are around um still, but if not, then you go through the process again. Um I, you know, I like the the adage hire slow fire fast. Um I just I think that that’s wise, you know, to take your time to get the right people and if it gets to a point where it’s not the right person, then you make that decision quickly.

[00:56:58.63] spk_0:
You also have to put ego aside that you know, maybe you that that it appears you made a bad hire if the person goes after three months or four months, you know, that that reflects that poorly on on the ceo, on the hiring buddy, if there was, you know, whoever was involved in the process of board members involved, that we all made a bad choice, well, okay, maybe we did, but but maybe we didn’t, you know, remember and in the interviews and the application of the person looked like the right person. So we have to put ego aside I guess. Yeah,

[00:57:59.63] spk_1:
very much so, you know, and I think any time that someone either voluntarily or involuntarily leaves the organization, you know, it’s never like one person’s fault, so to speak, you know, because there’s just too many interactions and too many. It’s just complicated, right? There’s way too much that goes into that mix. But I think it’s also really helpful when something, you know, like that happens, especially if it’s somewhat unexpected is to evaluate, you know, and especially if it was like a 90 day point evaluate. Well, let’s look at our process, you know, what’s missing, what went well, what did we miss, what would we do different, you know, what would we want to do differently and and do that as a team. Um, and I can feel, you know, I think as a leader it can feel scary to do that because you sort of, you know it feels like you’re being somewhat vulnerable to talk

[00:58:02.35] spk_0:
about what

[00:58:03.47] spk_1:
didn’t work.

[00:58:16.32] spk_0:
It’s introspective thought, you know, what what did we do wrong? What could we do better? What maybe some of my you know, maybe my contributions weren’t, maybe the goals were not Uh maybe the 90 day goals were not fair or although clear, I would hope that you’re clear that you would hope that you would figure that out in the 90 days and assess, you know? Yeah. Yeah, introspection is is a big challenge. It’s hard.

[00:58:31.44] spk_1:
Yeah. But it’s so good.

[00:58:33.67] spk_0:
It is vulnerable, it makes you

[00:59:07.02] spk_1:
Vulners, you’re right. It does make you vulnerable. It doesn’t take long. That’s the other thing. I mean you can really do a good evaluation in 30 or 45 minutes if that’s what you’re focused on with your team. And the insights from it are just invaluable. You know, just invaluable and this, you know, you want to create an environment where this is not about blaming people. It’s totally not about that, it’s really about looking at the process and what could we have done better. Not tell you, I mean that’s what you get out of that is worth. You know, tens of thousands of dollars of some consultant telling you it really is.

[00:59:33.32] spk_0:
Okay, okay, so leave us with some closing thoughts uh terry. What about the process, overall importance of, of assessment, etcetera. You know, leave us, we just fired somebody, you know, so leave us leave us in an uplift. We just fired somebody. So leave us in an uplifting spot.

[01:00:59.81] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah, So you just fired somebody that’s, oh man, it’s always you and I you and I know it’s a tough, tough place to be in. Um but I think um you know, if you’ve gotten to the point where you’ve had to to take that kind of action, then one door closes and another always opens, always always opens and what you’re looking for. Like with actually every single thing that we talked about today, you’re really looking at how can you unleash the potential of your organization, right? How can you unleash the potential of your vision, That’s what you’re doing, that’s what all of this is about, right? It’s it’s taking methodical intentional steps to unleash that potential and sometimes letting somebody go, it actually unleashes their potential to because they may honestly be in the wrong position, right? Like if it’s not working for you for the organization, it probably isn’t working for them either if they’re honest about it. Um So it’s all good. You know, I think the key is to be is to not panic to not react to really be intentional and to be thinking about some of these questions that you know, we’ve come up with Tony and you know, how how can you make the organization the best that it can be and really just get a, you know, a team that is working together like a fine oiled machine.

[01:01:19.51] spk_0:
Terry Beckman outstanding. Thank you. The company high goal H I G O L. Remember high impact growth oriented leaders, high gold dot C. O. And terry is at Terry Beckman. That’s Terri with an I and one are, thank you very much. Terry.

[01:01:20.80] spk_1:
Terrific. Thank you tony It’s such a pleasure to be with you today.

[01:02:19.81] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks for sharing your good ideas. Thank you very much. Next week. I’m working diligently on that. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Responsive by turning to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95 go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 25, 2015: Smart Interviewing Makes Great Hiring & Your Job Descriptions

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Sherryl Nufer: Smart Interviewing Makes Great Hiring

Sherryl Nufer, a founding partner in Pareto Consulting, explains why Behavioral Interviewing is superior to traditional methods and how any size nonprofit can get better hires through more sophisticated interviewing, whether you hire once a year or many times a month. This is from April 13, 2012.



Heather Carpenter: Your Job Descriptions

Heather Carpenter is co-author of the book “The Talent Development Platform” and she’s got advice for your often-rushed-through, lifted-off-the-web job descriptions. (Hint: Stop doing that!)



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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of a cute ryan al gia if i just got a whiff of the possibility that you missed today’s show. Smart interviewing makes great hiring cheryl nufer, a founding partner in peredo consulting, explains why behavioral interviewing is superior to traditional methods and how any size non-profit khun get better hires through more sophisticated interviewing? Whether you’re hiring once a year or many times a month, this is from april thirteenth, two thousand twelve, and your job descriptions once you’ve made the hyre it’s time for job description. Heather carpenters, co author of the book the talent development program, and she’s got advice for your often rushed through lifted off the web job descriptions gotta fix that on tony’s take two social media videos responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com here is cheryl nufer if smart interviewing makes great hiring, i guess now is cheryl nufer cheryl is a founding partner of peredo. Consulting, providing small to medium sized organizations with business tools that are often available only the large for-profit corporations sounds like she’s sort of stole the tagline for this show. She’s, a strategy and organization development consultant with more than thirty years of experience, and i’m pleased that her expertise brings her on cheryl nufer welcome. Thank you so much, tony it’s really a pleasure to be here. It’s a pleasure to have you thanks, snusz what’s wrong with traditional interviewing? Cheryl well, we have a top ten list of what goes wrong in interviews, but really, they’re too big and the first one is that it’s? Hard to believe, but a lot of interviewers don’t really know what they’re looking for in a candidate, and so they just figured that the more people they interview, the better their odds it’s kind of like vegas, and they don’t know when they see it. The second big problem is that they ask risky questions when i say questions. Yeah, what is that? Yeah, i don’t know. Just wait. Typically think about what we call illegal questions. Is that a problem? But risky questions, questions that back-up candidate can prep for that. They can anticipate that they can prepare a candid answer for which may or may not be the truth. So the data on which to base your hiring decision is a lot. So those sounds like questions like what’s your strengths and your strengths and weaknesses, like those types of questions are risky that’s exactly right? Because people can anticipate them. Yeah, common ones we here are what you just said there, but it’s also questions like, what would you do in a situation? For example, if you were faced with an angry donor for this job is going to require a lot of long hours. Will that be a problem for you? Or my favorite is tell me about yourself. Why should i write? And these are risky because they’re predictable is unmentioned. Secondly, they solicit the candidates opinions and, you know, i don’t want to sound harsh, but the candidate doesn’t know a lot about what’s required for success in the job interviewer does interviewers opinion it’s most important and then laugh so you can say that? Not sound harsh if i say it, it sounds harsh coming from you. It just sounds very matter of fact unprofessional. And final thing is that they also asked the candidate to hypothesize, so if you ask me, what would you do in a particular situation? They can tell you just about anything now? Is that what they would do if they were faced with that situation? Your organization, they may or may not so again, all of these risky it’s interesting that you call very typical questions risky, but i understand. I understand why. Yeah, well, it’s all about making it’s all about collecting data to make a decision to predict how someone is going to perform in your organization and risky your your database here, your hyre decision. Alright that’s so that’s the interviewing that we’re all most familiar with, we either do it or we’ve been through it. Or both. Why don’t you just started acquaint us with behavioral interviewing? Okay, well, behavioral interviewing is not just about the interview. It’s really a business process, just like your financial processes review hr processes and it has a set of steps. And so it starts off with identifying and defining the skills for success. And then you create a line of questioning that’s based on those skills you put that in an interview guide, follow the guide. After you interview you right, candidate based on the data you collected, and then all of the interviewers get together and share their example of make a hyre or no hyre decision. So, first of all, it’s, a repeatable process. In terms of knowing what you’re looking for, i think that’s a really big difference what we talk about is looking for a balance skills well and what we’re looking for doesn’t that come from the job description? Well, not necessarily, but good question, because a lot of organizations job description are nothing more than a list of responsibilities that they will fulfill once they’re hired, but what i’m talking about is a list of skills that are required to be successful in executing those responsibilities. And so we look at those in terms of technical skills, which are really job specific and things maybe like marketing the iranians fund-raising sales and then another set of skills that we call professional skills. You might also call the sauce skills and these cross jobs and these air things like planning and team work and initiatives and judgment, integrity, those kinds of things wei have a saying that a lot of organizations hyre on technical skills when they have to fire someone. Cheryl, we have to take a break when we come back. We’ll continue this and start exploring why behavioral interviewing is better than what we’re all accustomed to please hope. Everybody stays with us, we’re talking smart interviewing makes great hiring what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people x somebody’s a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealised took two or three years. For foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell, you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other. Ninety five percent. Dahna welcome back with my guests, cheryl nufer of peredo consulting, you’ll find peredo consulting at parade o p r e t o hyphen h y p h e n but don’t spell hyphen just put a hyphen in consulting peredo hyphen consulting dot com. Cheryl, why is this method behavioral interviewing superior to what we’re all accustomed to? Well, that has to do a lot with the questions that you ask, i said before the other questions, key behavioral questions are based on principle that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, so if we can figure out in an interview how a person behaves in the recent past in situations that are similar to what they face in our job, then we have a pretty good idea how well behaved if we hire them. So this is the opposite of stock investing, investment advisors who will say past results or no indication of future returns, right? Okay, but past behaviour is predictor of future behavior. Yeah, because we are creatures of habit. So there is a great formula for creating a behavioral question that your listeners could start using right away. So what you do is you start with the phrase something like give me an example of the time in the past, or maybe describe the past situation, and then what you do is you go back to those skills i was talking about a minute ago, the rooms that are important for success and you plug in burbage that describes the skills so let’s say we were talking about initiative, then we’d say something like, give me an example of the time in the past when you went above and beyond job requirements or a time in the past when you anticipated a potential problem and you made contingency plans. So what you do is always in behavioral interview issues asked what people did in the past versus what they would do in the future, which is a hypothetical. So this sounds harder to fake, but i have to tell the whole story. Now you have to tell a whole story, and it is very difficult to fake because they’re hard to anticipate. And a good interviewer should be asking specific follow-up questions. I mean it’s, easy to just ask the behavioral questions, but it’s an interview are you start listening for what you want. You want a real situation? You want to understand what they said or did in that situation, and you want to know what happened, what kind of results this is scaring the heck out of me if i’m in it, i’m nervous that’s a good thing i have my own business, so i’ve never run into this well. So what if i don’t have a story about initiative? Alright, i’m under pressure. I can’t i can’t think of one well, that’s a common thing, and our goal is the interviewer is to bring out the best in the candidate. So what? We can dio that’s good that’s, that’s reassuring it’s too, because when you’re comfortable, you’re going to share more information with me so i would prompt you with questions such as what about in this specific job? Or i may rephrase the question where someone doesn’t have work experience, i’m my nasco and to think about project that they did in college or maybe a summer job so anything that i can do or i can say, you know, we can come back to that question and give you a few minutes to think about it if you’d like. There are a lot of ways to handle that it’s not uncommon for someone to freeze up. Yeah, okay, i pulled listeners before the show. One of the questions i asked is, do you feel you’re hiring? Process is efficient and you’re hiring the right candidate, and about seventy one percent said yes and about twenty nine percent i said no, so we want to help the other third, but that two thirds may not be may not be as efficient and hiring savvy as as they think. That’s, right, that’s recorders almost sorry even if they have a good track record of getting good can bring one good talent. Beauty of a behavioral approach is that up? You don’t necessarily have to interview a lot of candidates and pick the best of the lot if you know what you’re looking for and you have a good screening process and you interview the candidates and their experiences match the criteria success. Technically, you could hire the first candidate you interview, which reduces your cycle time, and it also keeps you from potentially losing a good candidate because you’re hiring cycle is too long. Have you seen organizations do that either? For-profit or non-profit don’t they don’t they typically say, well, she was very good, but maybe we’ll find somebody better, absolutely, and that they are not confident in their process. There’s something in there got that says, you know, i’m just not confident in the data, my process for evaluating it and that’s where a good process really builds confidence to make that decision when you see that good step, okay? Andi yeah, these air interesting ondas you said very these type of questions very hard to anticipate that they’re going to come. How does the interviewer prepare? You talked down a little bit, going a little more detail on and then shortly we’ll get to how many interviewers there should be, but but but how do we prepare as an interviewer? So as an interviewer, well, basically you identify the skills that are required for success in the job. Based on those skills, you develop a line of behavioral questions using the formula that i shared with you. Typically you will type those up in an interview guide or just list if you have multiple interviewer shall divide that list up among all of your interviewers, so that there are no gaps in your questioning and there’s no redundancy safe, so everyone has their game plan they interview based on that. So that’s the primary way that you would prepare a search would review the resume common things, write what you want you want it certainly want to be prepared. So if it is a a siri’s of interviews interviewers, they don’t ask the same questions then no, they don’t that’s really a waste of time, and you have so little time in an interview. You want to make sure to use it wisely. Now they ain’t me ask multiple questions about a specific skill, but they typically don’t ask the same question because if they asked the same question, the candidate will probably give the same example and that’s kind of silly. You still tell the same story twice, exactly, and you would expect that so it’s not the interview each ball that’s the interviewers fault for not being prepared. On the other hand, what if all the interviewees stories, anecdotes come from just one of their jobs or something? Or just too? And they’ve got, you know, thirty years of experience or something like that? Well, that would absolutely be a red flag either there bread through depth of experience is not what it means here on their resonate, or perhaps there’s something that they just don’t want to share with you so that’s something that you may, if you find when you bring your interviewers together, that the same stories were told to everybody, then you could either make a no hyre decision or you could make a decision to have a follow-up phone interview where you would try to clean examples from some of their other work experience. Okay, so you’d like to follow up interview to be by phone, but the first one to be in person is that right? What i’m talking about here is typically you would do a phone screen organisations and then bring the candidate in for face-to-face what i was saying is, if you feel you can’t make ah hyre no hyre decision, you know, you always have the option to follow-up again by phone and asked more questions, okay, okay, um and so since we’re talking sort of around this, what is your advice around having just one interviewer or having a siri’s of interviewers, or even having a panel. Okay, well, we would always recommend more than one interviewer, if at all possible, and you can is that just to eliminate bias of one person, it could eliminate buy-in it? I can get you more data because if you have two interviews that you have more data on which to base a decision, there are two ways of doing what we call a serial interview, which is cheryl interviews candidate hands candidate off tony who interviews to hands it off to joe, and then when you separately and then after all the interviews, you come back together and share your example and make a decision. There’s also the panel interview where you have multiple people interviewing the candidate at one time and you can do multiple panels panels are great ways to involve more people from your organization and getting exposure to candidate. You just don’t want the panels to get too big. You know what is to become a panel? Interviews khun b scary. I’ve heard stories from people who were interviewed by five people or so that’s pretty intimidating it’s very intimidating i’ve been interviewed by many has six at one time. I know a lot about interviewing and that that was a nerve ng me, what we recommend is either two or three. When it gets above three, it can not only be intimidating, but it’s difficult for the interviewers to kind of it should be choreographed. So you should have someone out of the panel who is kind of the host and is kind of orchestrating this interview. There’s not anarchy, everyone’s firing questions at the candidate and it really doesn’t set the candidate up. Cheryl nufer is a founding partner of peredo consulting. You’ll find them on the web, but peredo pr e teo hyphen consulting dot com we’re talking about smart interviewing, making great hiring, cheryl. Is there an advantage of serial interviewing over the panel or or the other way around? Well, there is an advantage in the advantage is that when you’re in a panel, if you conduct one panel interviews, all three of you are hearing the same stories, the same situation in a serial interview it’s more likely that you will hear different stories, or sometimes the same story told different ways, and so you know, that sounds bad, but it can be bad if in fact there are vast differences in the story, like your fourth step in the supposed be the results. So if the results were different in the same story across to different interviews that’s about sign that’s a red flag may be the results keep getting better and better. Three interview that’s a great way to start catching a candidate who may be fabricating for people actually do that. Is that true? Absolutely, they do. I’ve heard rumors to that effect, but i always hoped it wasn’t so another question i asked listeners before the show is our hires in your office typically interviewed by more than one person and seventy one percent said yes, fourteen percent said no, so most people are doing the multiple interviewing and then fourteen percent said depends on the job. Um all right, is there a job where the solo interview makes sense or no, you really just don’t like that at all or there’s a situation, i guess i mean when just one interviewer makes sense. Here’s what i would say in some more straightforward job, maybe some entry level jobs it could perhaps the appropriate that i say it’s no more appropriate in bigger organizations bigger cos you have a really small organisation. You have to hire the right people. You i have no where to hide them. You have no one to cover for them hyre abad a bad fit so i think it’s always good in a small organization, if possible, to have a second set of eyes and get that second set doesn’t have to be somebody that the person is going to report to, right? It could be a colleague. I mean, taken officer just four or five people. They’re going to be hiring of fifth or sixth, like a cz you’re saying that’s a big percentage of the staff, it doesn’t have to be somebody that that person would report to write absolutely not. And in a small organization of horrified people, i mean everyone’s wearing multiple hats, they really have to depend on each other. So everyone has a big stake in making sure the best person has brought onboard, so it could be a appear. It could be someone that maybe is performed well in a similar job in the past. You’re absolutely right. It could be just as long as they’re good interviewers they would be appropriate? How do we gauge technical expertise? We’ve been talking about behavior? Well, you can use behavioral questions to get that technical competencies, but technical skills are a little bit easier. For example, if you were hiring someone for fund-raising you can actually have them bring in and explain fund-raising approaches that they’ve used in the past. I mean, i would ask a lot of follow up questions to make sure that what they brought us, something they actually did. There are tests that you can use for certain technical skills. You can also do simulations, so for example, if you were hiring someone for a sales position, are fund-raising position you could actually have them come in and do a presentation to a team of you, and so you were potential donors and see how they would handle it. So there are a lot of ways to get technical. Wei have just about a minute left, cheryl, what potential problems should people look out for us if they’re goingto implement behavioral interviewing? I think the biggest problem is asking a behavioral question and assuming you’re going to get a behavioral answer, so you have to be able to sort out hypothetical responses through a good line of follow-up questioning about the situation there. Action in the results. Okay. Situation, obstacle action and results. Cheryl nufer is a founding partner of peredo consulting, which provides small to medium sized organizations with business tools that are often available only the large for-profit corporations. Cheryl, thank you very much for being a guest has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. And i hope that this information will help your eye. I think it will help listeners. Thank you very much. A pleasure to have you. Thankyou, tony. Stick to and your job descriptions coming up first. Pursuant, they have this tool. Billboard it’s integrated management for your multi-channel engagement strategies. All right, s o jargon jail. I plead guilty for that. You, khun. I could throw myself in there. Let’s. Break it down. You communicate in lots of different ways. Email landing pages, micro sites, donation forms mobile, all the social networks best to manage them all separately. No, don’t separate. Integrate! I thought that myself that’s, that’s not pursue it. Language. I thought of that billboard is integrated management and the all important analytics that go along with all these. Tools so you know which channels move more people and which don’t from mayor you learn you improve, continue that it oration, that innovative process of learning and improving based on the analytics, and you’ll raise more money. Check out billboard it’s at pursuant dot com. My video this week is the next set of non-profit technology conference videos. They’re all about social media there’s a panel of three on visual social media, another panel on email deliver ability so that those e mails that you sent through billboard actually arrive at people’s inboxes video strategy and embrace embracing emerging technology and social media. They’ve been on non-profit radio if you’ve missed them or you want the videos because you like to watch the videos, then the links are under my video at tony martignetti dot com, and that is tony’s take two for friday, twenty fifth of september thirty eighth show of the year. I’m very pleased that heather carpenter is with me. She is a phd was a non-profit manager for ten years. She’s, now assistant professor in the school of public non-profit and health administration at grand valley state university. She teaches grad and undergrad courses in non-profit management, financial management, fund-raising technology, leadership and human resources management. The book that brings our two non-profit radio is co authored with terra qualls, and it is the talent development platform putting people first in social change organizations published by josy bass this year on twitter she’s at heather carpentier, which is at heather carpenter. But take off that last are heather carpenter. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, tony it’s. A pleasure. You’re calling from grand valley university. Where’s that michigan. Right war in grand rapids, michigan, which is on the west side of the stage. Okay. Okay. That was the summer there in grand rapids. It was really nice. We have a great summer. A little harsher winters, but yeah. No, but you do have harsh winters. Yes. Okay, heather, our job descriptions he’s often get very, very short shrift, don’t they? Yes. Yes. Well, having worked in non-profits for many years and done h r and operations, i know how busy we get. And often, when people leave organizations, we scramble and pulled together what we have on dh and send out a job description that is often outdated and hasn’t been updated in a few years, or sometimes, i think, even pulled off the web. Yes, yes, you’ve seen that, yes, ok, not that you’ve done that when you were leading your non-profit i understand, but i think it’s, i think that’s, also a pretty common practice. Why do we need to focus more on job descriptions? Well, job descriptions are really an important part of helping an employee to understand there roles and responsibilities within the organization. It also helps to track employee and volunteer performance and success, and this is, ah, a living document, right way need to keep these current as job responsibilities change. Yes, we recommend that non-profits update their job descriptions, actually, on an annual basis. Okay, okay. Do you do you think that poor job descriptions lead tio? I don’t know hyre turnover or lower morale? What consequences do you think result from not having accurate descriptions? Yes, i i agree with your assertion, we’ve found that couple of things can happen with outdated job descriptions, one that’s for a new hyre they might not really fully understand the role let’s say hypothetically speak about how when organizations lose employees and they have someone coming in, and they used a job description that’s out data from the labs it’s not clearly showing the response the accurate responsibility so the person might get burned out pretty quickly, finding out they have a lot of additional latto responsibilities, or maybe they don’t even have the adequate qualifications for for the rial responsibilities. So the job or, if someone’s been in a position for a few years, there’s what we call the pile on effect where often more and more responsibilities added, but that’s not actually reflected in the job description or in compensation, so so employees can get volunteers burn out that way, and then sometimes people become overqualified for the job or might be over, claude will decide. When they come in, the job description is accurate. Does this apply also to organizations that are mostly volunteers? Should should be job descriptions for volunteers? Oh, yes, absolutely, we believe that that will our book applies to not just paid staff volunteers as well, and we actually have sample job descriptions are bored board positions and key volunteers, as well as from common staff within various non-profit organizations like your executive director, development director on bury the book is loaded with lots of resource is sample job descriptions but goes way beyond that just dahna job responsibilities and forms, you know, and we’re just taking one piece of the book and talking about job description, but there’s a lot more to it, and the thing is just loaded with but templates and resource is yes, thank you. I really wanted it to be as practical as possible, having worked in the nonprofit sector for many years, ourselves it’s more of a workbook where organizations can pick and choose the chapters that they need the resource is from, but it is a whole platform if an organization decides to go through the process for from everything from understanding the organizational. Learning and professional development culture to actually assessing stats, professional development and creating a professional development goals and abducted tied to the strategic als of the organization. Yes. All right, all right. So where do we start this job? Description process. I mean, i know who it starts with its doctor, the supervisor. How does that what is the what the person need to do to get started? Well, the supervisor should really look at the position itself and often there’s different philosophies on job descriptions. And our our philosophy is that the organization, the supervisor, should build the job around the position and not the person because people change andi really, to really get an understanding of what is needed to advance the organisation for words. So we have something called a proficiency mapping cool and are in our book where supervisors can really identify the called common confidences that the knowledge, skills, abilities and other characteristics needed to perform the job and then rape those competencies on different proficiency levels. We use the profession into level scale created by the national institute of health, and they’ve been doing this type of job description, worked for many, many years. And really getting understanding of what level that the position and the responsibilities to need to be at when we talked earlier a few minutes ago about outdated job descriptions common, another problem with outdated job description says they’re not often at the level that the position needs to be on a smaller non-profits with great to have people who could do lots of different responsibilities, but sometimes we have very high expectations that someone in entry level type job might be more responsibilities, say, manager or leading the organization through some sort of process when that’s not necessarily the right level for that job, you have these five proficiency levels fundamental, novice, intermediate advanced and an expert yeah, and we provide definitions and also example words and responsibilities at each level. I like to tell you i jump pretty quickly from fundamental toe expert on i think, if i’d done something once, that makes me an expert, so i don’t know if that fits within your construct, but like one time i’m not the expert the first time, but after i’ve done it one time i consider myself an expert. Andi that’s cost that’s cost me a lot of money in like home repairs and things, but i can’t get around it that’s, that’s but that’s, probably not talking, doesn’t fit within your your definitions well, generally the expert and advance our our our director level positions on responsibilities. So at the executive director, we would hope a most size organizations that the person the person holding that position would have advanced on expert level. But we understand that at the lower level positions the coordinators, entry level positions that they’re more at the the novice and the intermedia level. And yes, i mean, we’ve found that it’s helpful, starting with the supervisor to create these confidences and proficiency levels on dh, then down the line, wei have employees assess themselves and not do a real comparison over the competencies profession? Okay, yes, we’re going to get that so so after the supervisors part, then then what’s next in creating these optimal job descriptions, the next step is really getting documenting the employees responsibilities, and they don’t see what the supervisor has done. But if you do have someone in that particular position just making sure that all the responsibilities are are documented because the supervisor might not have a buy-in of everything that’s employees doing. But obviously, if it’s a new position or if the job description has never been done before, then they would have the supervisor job. Do the proficiency mopping. Ok, ok, but but the next step now is the is the is the employee e-giving their input into what their responsibilities are around the competencies and the proficiency levels. Yeah, the next up, it’s. Just the employees identifying their their responsibility. Okay, a faster proficiency levels. Quite yet just for the job description itself. It’s really making sure that all the responsibilities are identified and the supervisor is really the one that making sure that all the proficiency levels are identified. All right. Ok. Ok. And we mentioned these competencies. Can you give us some examples of competencies? Sure. Before you do that, i want to tell you about the process that we took to to identify ten core confidences for non-profit managers like holly. And i actually did some some national surveys and looked at literature around training needs of non-profit managers and a what their confidence cesaire needed. So this is really backed and research that we identify the ten course set. Of common confidence ease that non-profit managers possessed. They’re very general there everything from advocacy to communications, marketing, the financial management to fund of elopement way also have human resource is way also in the book go through the process of have helping organizations create their own sub confidence ease, because since the time core competencies are very general, we know that each organization is different in their culture and each position and as well as department, it’s organization, house, apartment, that they have their own core competencies that are important to that organization. So we’ve also provided some examples of different size organizations and the sub confidence juices issues that they have so well, for example, intercultural confidence. He is a very important sub competency for many organizations. Uh, two working, working well under pressure are working with certain population. Uh, so we we worked with various organizations and their different types of missions required different confidences. So we worked with homeless organization last semester, and they, you know, they require their staff tohave competencies and understanding about people who have housing, have challenges. Okay, let’s. See, we have just about a minute before before we take a break. And then we’ll continue. I should do this. We haven’t mentioned the board should be job descriptions for board positions. Definitely we have. We have a sample job description for board chair board treasurer for secretary on various board general boardmember on there’s a there’s. A lot of resource is not just in our book, but out there on the web as well for creating and managing board job description. That’s an important piece we’ve we’ve done this process with all volunteer run organizations where it’s just the board teo organizations that have paid staff, maybe they’re smaller, they have all the board do their job descriptions and then the one to two staff members that they have so it’s important that it’s not just a staff process that boardmember look at their job descriptions and revised them. Okay, let’s, go out for a break, and when we come back, heather, of course we’ll stay with us and we’ll keep talking about your job descriptions, and then we’ll move to mapping, mapping you, thies competencies and proficiency levels to the job description. Stay with us what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests. Check this out. From seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. I took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card. It was like it was phone this email thing. Is fired-up that’s? Why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life, it sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell, you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent lively conversation top trends and sound advice that’s tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m lawrence paige, no knee author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. I know i say it every time. Maybe maybe you listeners get here. Tired of hearing me say this, but i wish lawrence would pronounce his last name. Panjwani. He’ll be so much more beautiful than paige. No. Ni lawrence. I’ve said this a large his face. So no it’s, not like i’m going behind his back. And pandiani will be so beautiful. Lorenzo lorenzo panjwani okay, okay. Heather let’s move now. Tio mapping what is this? What is it? What is that? The mapping process that comes next? Well, this is the mapping process is really about revising the job description and making sure that it matches up with the responsibilities really, that are needed. We advise organizations to separate job responsibilities by the confidence categories, so we often see job descriptions that have the whole long list of job responsibilities, but were our processes to separate them by category? Cory so that it’s clear on the difference competencies that are needed with that particular job. We also have the manager identified proficiency levels based on the job responsibility, action, words. And so this is where? This is the revision process, the different levels and making sure that the wording really matches up with the proficiency level. So we might have a position that is hyre up that it needs to be or lower and can be a giant. Now you mentioned job responsibility, action words. What defined those for us? Well, the action words are provided in the proficiency mapping scale. So as we talked about before there’s five perfect into levels from fundamental awareness novice, intermediate to advance and experts and each of these i have a different level and we have action words that are associated with each level. So as i mentioned about the higher level positions we have the dance level there’s there’s, some facilitating, leading liaising managing and the expert level. We’re synthesizing. We’re training were troubleshooting. And so these hyre level action words are associated with hyre level job responsibilities. Okay, yeah. And that’s me. Well, i like to focus on the expert. You know, like i said, i would skip over novice, intermediate and advanced. I go right from fundamental to expert one one one one time. So i’ve gotten used to use those expert use those expert examples that’s where hyre just in my mind that’s where i belong let’s see? Okay, so in this job in the in this revision process now it’s, the employees and the supervisor working together, uh, well, family it’s the supervisor making sure that the job description is aligned because as much as we’d like to be an employee involved in the process, the next step in the talent of altum platform, which i don’t have time to talk about here is the individual professional development assessment and that’s where an employee actually haserot their confidence season proficiency level so it’s really helpful that they don’t see realign job description before that, that there going off of what they i think that they’re expertise is and their proficiency level is. And then that way you could do an accurate, um comparison. So what the job requires? Okay, well, you might be surprised we might have time to get to assessment a little bit. Way might be surprised. Um, now so the mapping there are there was, i think six steps on don’t really have you know, we don’t have time to go through all six of them, but help help us. Understand an overview of the process a little more detailed, and then we have so far. Yeah, so, as i mentioned in the first step of separating the job responsibilities by competency category, you’ll see then if there’s gaps and if you’ll have competency categories that you’re not covering it’s amazing how many organizations that we’ve worked with through this process, where they are missing confidence, ease for specific positions, like operations manager or or the executive director where often maybe, you know hr is a part of the operations manager job, but it’s not really accurately included are reflected in the job description or the job responsibilities or information technology is often a part of someone’s job, but not necessarily included, so it really helped helps organization to identify gaps with responsibility and say, well, we don’t have anything in this competency category. So let’s, let’s talk about what we need to include, i see, okay, it strikes me that this whole process to is going to i guess you said it, but just is going to make sure that you’re not bringing in let’s say, entry level people and having expectations that are unreasonable for them in terms. Of responsibilities and competencies exactly. We we also talk about degree levels as well and compensation. We worked with quite a few smaller non-profits that, like tio, take all the responsibilities that we provide his examples, and and use them to hyre their new entry level staff at the masters level were like, whoa, you know, let’s think about it’s entry level, do they really need a masters? Or do they even need a bath? Kottler for that regard, so this really helped to think through the position responsibilities that you need for the organization and ok, if i really need all those responsibilities and maybe it’s two positions, not one or i’m i think i’m being unrealistic with how many responsibilities that i’m requiring in this in this position. So having those those sometimes difficult conversations about what’s realistic for the organization since restoring tio, we’re talking about the possibility of entry level employees what’s your feeling on starting people at at low salaries? Well, i’m a little biased because i advocate for living wages because i teach graduate students in a lot of them are often on the job market, either during their degree program are afterwards and it’s really disappointing to see them have to take very low wage starting jobs also research so that it costs between seventy five, to one hundred for fifty percent of employees annual salary when they leave. And so what i’ve seen with my students and former employees is that bill, if they’re not getting adequate living wage compensation, then the leave within a few months and that actually costs the organization a lot of money organizations, i don’t think we often realize how much time and effort it takes latto post the new position to interview the people to do the training and that’s that’s money, and what will when in fact, we could pay a living wage and a good starting salary for entry level employees and have them stay longer even if they stay a year to that’s that’s better than the cost of done, leaving within a few months because they find a better opportunity that pays better. Excellent! We’ve got to leave it there. Unbelievable! You were right. We didn’t have a chance to talk about assessment. You are right, but you got it by the book it’s talent development platform she’s heather l carpenter, phd and you’ll find her on twitter at heather carpentier carpenter and take off that last are thank you very much. Other thank you. I’ve been a real pleasure next week. I just don’t know, because i’m recording this a couple of weeks ahead. It won’t suck, i promise you that if you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com where in the world else would you go? I told you i was coming back pursuant full service fund-raising you’ll raise laundry carts more money. I’m not talking about those one person metal things that you pushed down the street to go to the local laundromat or your stuff him in the in the back seat of your minivan, i’m talking those big plastic monsters on the loading docks at hotels and jim’s with sheets, and the towels are spilling over the sides, but instead of sheets and towels filled with money pursuing dot com, our creative producer is clear meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez susan chavez dot com on our music is by scott stein bourelly next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder pregnant mark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. I took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe. Add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell, you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for August 28, 2015: Fundraiser Incentive Pay

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Dave Dalessandro & Liz Cooper: Fundraiser Incentive Pay

The University of Pittsburgh has created a career ladder to stem frontline fundraiser turnover—and it includes incentive pay. Explaining Pitt’s innovation and helping you think through whether this makes sense at your organization are Dave Dalessandro, associate vice chancellor for university development, and Liz Cooper, senior executive director for university development.


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I go into hydro poisonous if i got exposed to the hot idea that you missed today’s show fundraiser incentive pay university of pittsburgh has created a career ladder to stem frontline fundraiser turnover, and it includes incentive pay, explaining pits, innovation and helping you think through whether this makes sense at your organization. Our dave dalessandro and liz cooper fund-raising administrators at the university on tony’s take two the ntc videos responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com i’m very glad to welcome dave dalessandro and liz cooper to the show. Dave is associate vice chancellor for university development at the university of pittsburgh and liz cooper is senior executive director for development at the university. David liz, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having us for having a it’s a pleasure, dave, i don’t i’m not sure we’ve ever had a a chancellor or vice chancellor on the show before. This sounds like a very regal term, but you’ve got a crown born there. What? You’re sitting on a throne. What? Mrs chancellor? Well, uh, associate vice chances are a lot like vice presidents in bank. Okay, a lot of you. Okay, but they prefer chancellor. Essentially, i sit over all of the individual fund-raising for the university plan giving prospect, research all the analytics and lose his second in command. Okay, uh, it’s, just interesting that some places, i guess mostly i see it, and i guess it is in universities. Prefer chancellor over president. I don’t know. I don’t know where that. Okay, i don’t know it just right. It sounds, uh, sounds like royalty. All right, um, liz, you and i are ah, you and i are the now the libyans know, um, what is your responsibility, liz? As senior executive director for development? Sure. So i oversee all of the central fund-raising operation. So i hyre orient and supervise all of our fundraisers that are located here. Centrally. I also oversee fund-raising efforts that go on in some of our smaller schools, for example, school of education or the school of social work. And i also work closely with our regional campuses. All right? And of course, ah, i wanted teo, we’ll let you know that i’m a carnegie mellon altum and no, carnegie mellon is just down the street from pit, so we’ll have no ah, we’ll have no trouble with you, please way won’t hold it against, don’t yeah, that’s. Sure it is two against one. So what am i talking about? Yeah, all right, all right, dave, why don’t you get us started? This incentive pay and the career ladder, and why was this important to do it? Back-up i’m gonna have i’m gonna have to start off on that look at this already is an anarchist anarchist already? I okay, this is what is what happens when you deal with this. What happens when you’re dealing with a chancellor? I see. Ok, ok, go ahead, liz. You start off. Um, you know, i think that it seemed like every moment i was checking my email, i was receiving an article or blogged about some big hyre education fund-raising issues, um two of which were the recruitment of major gift officers and the retention of major gift officers. During our campaign. We were fortunate to have a group of very successful and talented individual major gift officers that are loyal to the university. But as you know wherein one campaign ends, you start thinking about another, and we knew we were going to grow. So we wanted to address these issues recruitment and retention of major gift officers at pitt before they became ah common. Seem to us, if that makes sense. In other words, it was a common theme across hyre education. And we didn’t want it to be an issue here. And what do you see? As the downside of just make sure everybody eyes on the same page with this the downside of a frequent turnover of fundraisers, i think continuity is a big themes that you’ll find in development. Uh, continuity is good for donors. It’s good for the employees. It’s good for the organization. Good for the bottom line. Um, when an individual major gift officer leaves the university, uh, that relationship that they developed with that individual major gift donor repaired and start over again. So all right, so yes, we want this continuity, and donors prefer it. Donors prefer it sure they because they begin a relationship not only with pitt, but with that individual major gift officer. Yeah, for sure, dave, if you think i’m going to bring you in this conversation, you’re out of your head so you can hang up or whatever i don’t. It doesn’t matter to me. No, it sounded like there was something you were going to say, dave, you want to add something? Well, i think that one of the things that we learned was that it’s actually less expensive over the long run to retain your existing fundrasing not only have you spent time training them, and we spend a lot of time training our major gift officers, but the process of recruiting the process of, you know, matching salaries from from folks coming from larger cities or larger institutions actual becomes more expensive over time, so it seemed us that one of the things we wanted to do it was to control, uh, for those those problems when we were going from eleven major gift officers to probably thirty two, so you multiply all those problems when you’ve got three times more fundraisers and you’ve got a real problem of scale if people are coming and going, so that was a big hit was a big issue for us that, you know, once we had made this initial investment, we didn’t want to have to recoup it over and over again with new folks. Liz, you said you’re responsible for the hiring and training, so why don’t we? Why don’t we start with this? The career ladder idea and the incentive pay around around fundraiser orientation? What what’s what’s different now that you have this method of evaluation and compensation? Sure, when there’s so many young, talented folks out there that have maybe two or three years in development. These millennials, when they came to me in an interview, would ask me, where will i be a pit in five years? Or where will i be a pit? In seven years? Prior to the career ladder, i would stare back at them, and i would not be able to answer them except with simple response. We hope that you’ll still be here. So, you know, this was a really when when this was established, this was a really interesting way for us to tell that applicants there is a future for you here, and we have thought it through. How long have you been doing incentive pay and the career ladder, which we’re going to talk about? So we worked on the career rod, or for about eighteen months, and it was implemented in janu miree okay, so we’re talking, oh, wow. All right, so just eight months or so, all right, but a lot of little lead time lot of thought went into it, so go back to the orientation question then was how is training of new fundraisers different now? So a part of what we wanted to ensure was that we were orienting exceptional fundraisers and that’s, really, what the career ladder is based on is really those performers that are going above and beyond a successful and being exceptional. Part of that is us training them for the first three months of their employment to get up and running as quickly as possible. So learn how pit fund-raising tto learn how we do it. So we establish what we lovingly refer to as the academy it’s a week long, intensive training, hands on experience taught by our own staff on all the things that we think they need to know as individual fund-raising individual gift fundraiser, for example. But they get a crash course on plan giving. They get a crash course on our endowment, making the ask proposals agreement’s, etcetera. So that we feel that after that week, they really do have a great face in what it takes to be an individual major gift officer here. And what about god? I was just going to add that part of that so is the explanation is the explanation of the career excuse me? Is the explanation of the career ladder? Yes, there is actually a booklet that they get that that sets out uh all the requirements for them to in a period of three years be eligible for promotion. Okay? We’re we’re. We’re gonna we’re gonna go out a little early for a break. When we come back. We’re going to talk about what these elements are to being exceptional, there’s six of them and we’ll talk about how they fit into the career ladder all that stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Liz, let’s, let’s, turn to you. Would you please take off the six elements to prove that you’re an exceptional fundraiser? Sure, what well we have the first is our fund-raising visit number, dollar raised agreement sent. Agreement’s accepted the total contact that they have in our in our database, and the last is origination guest. Okay. Thank you. Um, let’s, let’s. Define some terms. What’s, an origination gift and origination gift is a gift that the development officer excuse me. Let me go back. The origination gift is a gift where the prospect was never placed in what we call active management. In other words, ah, other universities use the term maybe a legacy or one that was kind of handed down from a previous development officer to another origination gifts or those gifts that were the relationship that was established by the gift officer cultivated, solicited and closed. So their new giver to the university at the major gift level. All right, all right. And to be exceptional, you what? You have to achieve a certain level or exceed or so how do you prove that you’re exceptional across these six categories? Yeah, if it’s okay, i’ll let dave kind of handle that. And what we what? We’ve determined to be exceptional. That’s okay, trust him. Go ahead. Yeah. One of one of the things that that the career ladder does is takes a traditional major gift officer position and breaks into six steps. So at each step, step one step two, step three. Step forward. So on there are a set of performance standards. The initial performance standards are considered. This is your level of competency. This is what you’re supposed to be doing. Uh, and then you have the exceptional being in terms of money raised double that amount. And all of these other factors are not all that different at both exceptional in regular. In other words, what we’re really trying to figure out is are you doing to baseline of activity? And how effective are you taking that baseline and raising mohr gifts than the person sitting next to you? So at each level and exceptional person is always raising double the amount of money that another person in the class is raising, or with one so the ones might be exceptional taken average five hundred thousand if they could propose to it to their only exceptional, they raise a million if they get to three, they’re only exceptional. Raise two million. If they get the for their only exceptional, they raise three million. Alright, so in this system it’s entirely possible to be promoted and be exceptional as a cr m one and never leave the c r m to level because you’re not exceptional at that level. All right, so let me just way have jog in jail on tony martignetti non-profit radio c r e m is probably pretty widely known but let’s, just make explicit. I assume that’s, constituent relationship manager, charitable relationship, charitable. See, i did not have a charitable relationship manager. Okay, okay, go ahead. Sorry. And, uh, yeah. That’s that’s. Kind of where we got away from the major gift officer term. Because we felt that terrible relationship manager actually is a title that expresses the job. Yeah, related. They’re managing sheriff oppcoll relationship. Yeah, kind of like that. A charitable relationship manager. Okay, so do you to be exceptional. Do you have to do double the double the goal in all six of these categories? No. No. Okay. How does it work now? How does it work? What’s the formula. The formula is that let’s say you come in as what we call the c r m one. So you’re cr one and we tell him here’s what you need. All right. Need forty five fund-raising visits two hundred thousand new pledges. Six. Agreement sent four agreements accepted. A thousand total contacts. Into origination gets now. If you are exceptional, you’ll have forty five were mohr fund-raising visits. You’ll raise five hundred thousand maurin new pledges and gifts. You’ll have six agreement scent, or mohr for agreements, mohr, a thousand total contracts and three origination gifts. So if you managed to make all those numbers all right over a period of three years, in other words, set your average of doing at over three years. Yes, stand. At the end of the third year you’re eligible for a promotion, it would be promoted to c r, m two two. Okay, okay, what is probably should just defined this earlier, but what is the total contacts? Total contacts are all the things that you put in the database, which indicate an attempt to maintain communication with the donor. So emails, letters, phone calls, okay? That’s, pretty liberal, and then and then one of the categories i think the first one lives mentioned is is actual visits fund-raising visits, right? That that assumes that that’s a face to face meeting, yes, okay, but here’s the difference and, you know, we’ve had people say, boy, that number that numbers, so we have to make two hundred visits. Well, the only way you get credit for a fund-raising visit is that you have an actual discussion about a major gift, and in fact, all of our folks are supposed to call and say i would like to come and talk to you about your philanthropic relationship with the university of pittsburgh. So these aren’t alumni visits. These aren’t people you casually run into at a football game or a basketball game. We still count those, but you don’t get credit. We’ve got you know, we’ve got a staff that actually vets all the contact reports, determine whether you get credit or not for that visit i used to be a planned e-giving director at two colleges before i before i became a plan giving consultant. Yeah, i do. I do play e-giving telling now, but i used to be plain giving director i i’m trying to decide whether i would have loved this or hated it. I think it’s i think i would have loved it because i kind of like the office competition. Although buy-in both these shops, i had started the plan giving program, so there was no other planned e-giving fundraiser. But i mean, you could. I’m sure we could have worked out a way of comparing my work to that of frontline major gift officers, but sure. Okay, now i think i would have i don’t know if i would have succeeded, but i think i would have liked it. I don’t know. I might have been out after three years. Why did yu let’s turn to lose? But is why? Why a thirty six month average? And and also, how does that work? If someone goes out on maternity leave or or family medical leave or, you know, has an injury or something like that. But first, why the why the thirty six months? We felt like three year rolling average was a great way to measure exceptional performance and that you’re not relying on a successful year and you’re not relying on a particularly poor year, either. So for example, let’s say, ah, major gift officer has ah, year where they raised one point, one point, one million dollars it’s a great fund-raising year well, then, if you take the three year rolling average, you can’t just do nothing for the next two years and and know that you’re going to get promoted. There’s still work to be done? Um, so and on the flip side, if you have a year where you raise only two hundred thousand dollars, you still have plenty of time to make it up, so we thought it was fair in that sense. Um, the thirty six months is what hr helped us to find us as active employment, so if they are, go on maternity leave, for example, essentially their performance cycle thes thirty six months pause and it picks right back-up and thirty six months so that’s, another thing that i want to mention is that we don’t run on the fiscal year, for example, we run on a calendar year from the date of their hyre they’re hired on march first, they’re judged on twelve year cycle for a year, one from march first to march first. So if they were to go on maternity leave on march first and then it would pause for the next three months, it would then pick up on june first, and that would be the end of their very six months, if that makes it okay. So each each person’s anniversary is the date of hyre correct and and there’s a if there’s a chunk missing for medical leave or whatever, then you would just tack on more time at the end. You got it. Okay, okay. Does that does that trouble you at all that or how did you think through this one? Everybody’s got a different anniversary date. I mean, putting aside the record keeping well, we’ll get to that. I mean, that’s a ministerial we could deal with that. But the different people have different anniversaries when they’re thirty six months is up. Does that? Does that concern fundraisers at all? Is that concern you? Well, i think that they believe that that’s actually extremely. Fair um, so let’s say you start in september if you were running on a fiscal year, you’ve only got nine months of performance, so at the end of three fiscal years, you actually haven’t worked for thirty six months. You’ve worked for thirty three months this way, your guarantee that you get the full thirty six months for your promotional review, and, uh, from what i know from the folks who who work here and now live under this, they love the certainty of all this, they know when they’re going to be up for a promotional review, which almost never exists in any organisation i worked at before, one of which was carnegie mellon. You’ve got voodoo, you’ve got booted out all for emotion. No review was something that you might ask your supervisor. Hey, i’ve been doing pretty good for two years, you know, when you’re going to look at, you know, what else can i be? How can i be promoted? And that was always this foggy kind of answer this way. They know at the end of that thirty six months they’re going to sit down and they’re going to be able to review their last three years of work. I’m sorry. You got booted out of carnegie mellon. Pardon? I said, i’m sorry you got booted out of carnegie mellon. Yeah, well, they had crazy ideas. Okay? I’m so uncertain. That didn’t happen. So so is there not a performance evaluation? Interim during the thirty six months there is there’s still an annual praise a ll, um and and that’s kind of the more, um, qualitative way of looking at this. So each annual appraisal has five performance factors, and these performance factors are what we’ve identified to be an exceptional individual, major gift officer. They are perseverance, problem solving, functional technical skills, interpersonal communication and kind of most importantly, donor focus. So that it’s not just about the numbers and i will and i when i would like to say that individual major guest officers tend to be numbers driven people. And they like this career ladder because it’s very transparent and it’s very numbers driven. But to us, it’s not just about the numbers to us, it’s about ensuring that there still meeting the needs of the donor and these annual appraisals help us determine that there still totally donor-centric now i would think that even in these annual appraisal, though, you’re you’re evaluating the a reviewing with the fundraiser, their performance, how they’re doing time versus goal over there for their thirty six month period. Yep, you got it. Okay, so there’s that there’s that too. But but okay, but also call it a more qualitative assessment than than the thirty six months which would be that’s, that’s, pretty quantitative and numerical in the thirty six month review. Okay, well, the thirty six month review so here’s how it fits together, tony. All right, so at the end of the thirty six months so everybody every morning gets there gets their current running total on their screen so they know exactly where they stand. Oh, my, everyone. So at the end of the first year, they will get their current totals and there their average at the end of the second year, they’ll get their current total stand. How that averages so they’re always they always know how hard they have to be working to get where they need to get. Okay? And that becomes that’s important because when they sit down for there promotional review their very well aware of whether or not they’re going to make it or not, the others the numbers there, right? You have seen it and seen it every day during your appraisals, you cannot have needs improvement in any aspect. If you get it needs approval, you will not be promoted because exceptional employees don’t need to improve on one of these five aspects, right? And the biggest one that trips everybody up dysfunctional technical skills. Handup uh, one of the things that’s functional technical skill is putting accurate information and timely in a timely manner on what you’re doing. And so we just have some folks who simply can’t get around to port again trip reports, or they put in inaccurate trip reports, and so they get a needs improvement, and therefore they don’t get promoted because they’re not exception, i see, right? Even if, even if the numbers are there, even if the numbers you can’t need, you can’t need improvement in any of the five qualitative areas that liz mentioned. All right, so what’s the problem with the trip report? I mean, i that that used to be really valuable to me when i came back. Although, you know, if you get behind, then you’re really screwed because you have to forget and hopefully had decent notes. But but okay, we just have about two minutes before a break, but that that’s what? You’d be surprised. How long? Two minutes last. What? What trips people up with the use of inaccurate tripp reports? Like, how does that happen? One of the things that the one of the rules is that one of the only way you could get counted for a credit for a fund-raising visit one of the fifty six is you have to enter a next task. So a lot of folks, not a lot of folks, but there are those people who go to the visit and don’t think about what they’re going to do next. And so, over time, these people who are actually competent fundraisers, all right, they meet their basic numbers. They get a backlog of information that they owe us, and they never catch up. Yeah, i mean, they never catch up. Now, if you keeping up with your visits yeah. It’s it’s hard plus, you know, administrative tasks and things. I definitely if you get yeah. Like i said, if you get behind and you agree, right? Would you have just a minute? Liz, what happens if i come to you and tell you i got an offer at a competing? I got it. I got offered carnegie mellon. And not surprisingly, you know, they’re going to pay me one half times what i’m making at pitt. How does that fit into the career ladder? What kind of nice about the career ladder is that we can say to that employee? Well, this is where we value. This is where we see you. This is where our our standards are. And this is where we see you at pitt. So if you feel that that a move to carnegie mellon or to wherever is the appropriate step for you at this time, we’re sorry to see you go, but this is where we value you. Okay? This being your current salary, we’re not current. We’re not matching. We’re not matching competing offers. No. Right? Ok. All right. Sounds fair. We got more coming up. Of course, we’re going to talk a little about the ethics of of all this and maybe get some dahna reactions as well and talk about the infrastructure you gotta have a lot more coming up. Stay with us. In the meantime, i need to talk about pursuing because they’re a very smart company and, well, they sponsor non-profit radio. So there you go, that is de facto they’re smart company if you need more than that, they rely on data not unlike what we’re talking about with david liz that pit on dh technology metrics analysis, they’re not basing you’re fund-raising on tradition and popular wisdom that gets propagated at a fundraising conferences there’s too much of that around, you need to be smart and analytical and measure and then learn from what you’re measuring and that’s. What pursuing is about, um, for instance, the prospector platform that they have, which uses your data and, of course, supplements it with their algorithms to find your upgrade ready donors who should you be spending time talking to about upgrading from a thousand dollars a year to five thousand dollars a year, or half a million dollars a year, or half a million dollars last major gift to three quarters or a million dollar gift this time, whatever level you’re at, whatever size your shop, they’re going to apply prospector platform and its algorithms to your data and help you. Find the people target the people you should be spending time talking about with around upgrading their giving. It’s all at pursuant dot com i was at the non-profit technology conference back in march, interviewing speakers. I used all those interviews on non-profit radio you’ve been hearing for the past several months, we also shot video of those interviews and now it’s about time. Um, the videos are coming online, we’re going to start putting them on my youtube channel. The first four is up already, and it includes our contributor, amy sample ward, who is the ceo of non-profit technology network, which, by the way, is an excellent organization around using technology smartly in your non-profit and you know, her she’s on every month talking about social media so that’s, one of the four videos that’s up the the others are previewed on my video and of course, their links to all for anti seizure goes and there are more to come because i did twenty five interviews that ntcdinosaur year so there’s, a lot more video to come and that is tony’s take two for friday, twenty eighth of august thirty fourth show of this year. David liz, you’re still with us, right? Yes. Ok. You ok? Thank you. I know you were seven. Sam, let me know, but i just like to say a little affirmation. Um, let’s. See, i don’t know who wants to talk about this there’s? Not really too much. But i just wanted to make it clear when you talk about incentive pay, i think there’s a possibility that people might be thinking of the ethical considerations and constraints that the association of fund-raising professionals f has. And the relevant sort of passages, i guess are that members of a f p shell not accept compensation or enter into a contract that is based on a percentage of contributions. Nor shall members except finder’s for your contingent fees. Well, this clearly that’s that’s really not that’s, not what’s going on here, right? Right. That’s not what’s going on. And there is no relationship between the amount of money anybody raises and there increase in salary. So this is not a okay. You did really good this year. So here’s twenty thousand dollars based on one percent of your increases. This is an actual an actual increase in their salary, their annual salary level and hr work with us to ensure that that compensation levels stayed within the university’s ranges for jobs. That were classified like our jobs were classified and hr actually had no problem with this. We thought that would be a stumbling block, but they really didn’t see a problem with that. Because, you know, the alternative is that people walk in and say, i have an offer from cmu and it’s one and a half times what you’re paying me and what are you going to do and a most instant? Most places that i know and i’ve worked for a bunch of folks sit around a table and say, what do we want to keep that person or not? And, you know, that’s, basically what it’s, what it’s, what it’s, based on right, and they kick it up, and so that drives a long term that drives your cost over because it’s, not controllable, it’s, not predictable and it’s hard to set up long term budgets when you say fifteen percent of the people in our community and asked for more money. So ethic but we’re trying to do is say to somebody, if you, uh, you have a career here and there is a a future that you can envision based on your performance. All right. What has the fundraiser reaction been now since since january? And neither one of you wants to commented did well, i can let me talk about two examples without naming any of the school’s involved. We hired someone from an ivy league school, and she basically said that she had no idea how she would get promoted at the school. She was that she had never seen anything like the career ladder where it says, if you do these things every three years, we’re going to look at the possibility of promoting you within the major gift class, so that made us feel really good, you know that someone from an ivy league school thought this was great? Um and we, you know, recently hired someone for from a private school who also said the same thing now what’s nice about the career ladder is we were able to bring that person in at a four because she had ten years of experience as a major give fund-raising yes, so we’re not limited to just bringing people in in one. And when we sent the numbers over to h r, they said, well, that person fits exactly into who we defined as a four so we don’t have any problem with that compensation, and it actually worked out wonderfully dahna and most people when we come in and handed this booklet during the interview, they’re just amazed that that this thing has been thought out to the details been thought out, has anybody? Ah, i’m going to challenge us to see on the other side has anybody either applicant or employees. When it was implemented, i objected and on departed because of it, no one’s left yet, okay and apprehend list as you’re interviewing applicants, potential fundraisers, anybody said, i don’t think this works for me again. I mean, the young applicants are mother of their millennials or it’s a generational thing, you know, they want to know what their future is going to be like in an organization, and so most of them are very appreciative that we’ve kind of thought it through another existing staff. You know, the reaction has been very positive and i think it’s in large part because it’s so transparent, all right? And yes, it sze clear everyone everyone knows they’ve been knows that i think that he knows the state level of trust. That this engenders it is very powerful for, you know, a group of fundraisers and, uh, one more point on that is we’ve had three promotional reviews two uh, managed to make the jump to another level, and one did so that’s the way it goes, right? All right. And the one who didn’t well, let’s not say his or her name, but nobody listens to this show, so it really doesn’t matter. You don’t worry about that, but the okay, so for people who don’t make the so then they’re still retained a t organization. Yes, there’s capped and now we’re going in thirty six months will look att promoting you the possibility of promoting you again? No, actually that’s not the way it works, the way it works is what we do is we drop off the first year of their three year total and their scent in their third year again, so i don’t understand that what you mean? Ok, so the person who came up had worked here for three years and he didn’t make it. So what happens is we then say, we’re going to take all the Numbers from year 1 and drop him. And now you are in your new third year so you can come up again on your next anniversary. Oh, in one year. Okay, so i’m now right. I’ve now finished my second year and i’m entering my third because we drop the first one off. Yes. Okay. Well, that’s good. Presumably they’re getting better if you had a great, great first here and then you went down that’s not that doesn’t work to your advantage, but presumably fundraisers are improving. Not always, though you might have, you might have a spike one year and and not be able to match it in. You’re too, but that happens a lot. Yeah, on the other thing that’s important about all this is when you move from a one to two, all your previous numbers is zeroed out so you don’t carry those successes forward. In terms of the career ladder, you carry the prospects forward, but those numbers disappear. And so now you’re starting from ground zero again. Yeah, so, you know, it seems like, oh, wow, you know, all these people getting promoted over and over again, but in fact they won’t be because now they’ve gotta prove that they’re exceptional with the other level. And now they have to raise more money because we paid them or so they have to raise more money. And they have to do even better to be exceptional at that level. Yeah. Give us a sense of what the percentage increases from fromthe levels. Can you can you do that? Yeah, we could do that. It’s. I’m going to say it’s between ten and twenty percent. Okay, across all the levels, do you think? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, but that’s. Yeah, but here’s here’s the thing the university of pittsburgh has given out a raise of one point. Five percent for the last three years. Pary here. Right. So that’s, half percent over over three years. And you have the chance to go somewhere between ten and twenty. Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Yeah. That makes sense. It should. Your exceptional. You’re only being promoted your exceptional so exceptional peoples get the exceptional increases. Let’s. Move to the social infrastructure. Little record keeping well, ministerial stuff. What do you what do you need to put in place if you’re if you’re goingto take this on? Well, the first thing you need is some way to validate and verify all the information that goes into counting all these things you’re supposed to count, right? Almost everybody has that. What we have is we have two people who are assigned. Do as i say, validate all the information it goes in. So, you know, that becomes very important. The second thing is evaluation of gifts on some gifts. We have a sliding scale. Um, so certain request, depending on the age of the person, are not going to be valued at one hundred percent. Yes. Okay, uh, you know, so, you know, you want to be fair about these insurance policies that university doesn’t? Oh, are not valued at all our credit. It all right? Because that’s that’s rather krauz remainders knew all those things have have values based on, uh, you know, kind of the standard way of valuing things in the campaign. Right? In other words, all those numbers have to be validated. In other words, they’ve planned giving is getting screwed. That’s what’s happening because i could really i could get lots of bequests. But bequests are revocable and yeah, is there an age? At which a bequest would count at maybe not at not a future value. If the person reveals the amount. That’s just first of all, let’s. See if you think it’s i think it’s, i think it’s. So i have this thing here. Got sixty five. They get one hundred percent information. Okay, let’s, just let’s. Just passed it on age sixty five. Okay, so requests, if they’re over sixty five hundred, chancellor, if they’re under sixty five to get a five percent discount per year to the age fifty five. Okay. That’s, actually. Pretty generous, by the way, liz, that already? I think so. Liz had provided that about thirty seconds ago. But that’s all right, there. Um ah, yeah. That’s. Pretty generous. I was thinking more like seventy or seventy five. Wow. So full face value for aged sixty five. Ok. I think you bring pretty generous there. That’s. That’s. Very nice. Now that that presumes that, of course, the plan giving donors is willing to reveal the amount a lot. A lot would rather not. And it’s also put some pressure on the plan, giving officers to inquire right? And of course, they need what we call. Letter of testamentary intent. Yes, it’s got to be something in writing, okay? And there’s. So you’re not discounting the fact that this remains a revocable gift? No. Okay, but you are discounting that on the life insurance side. You said if it’s a life insurance beneficiary there’s no credit now the university’s nifty insurance is owned by the donor and doesn’t transfer the ownership to the university. Right? Right. That’s that’s the problem, right? The university’s just named as beneficiary, right? Okay. And that that doesn’t count. There’s no credit for that. That beneficiary designation. And i’ll tell you what you know, one of the things that scare one of these things came about is is, you know, meeting with someone who says, well, you know, i’m with this i’m with this corporation and i’m on the board, and so i’m going to put you in this a beneficial for the corporation, all right? On the key map, they’re not key, man. You know what they allow you to do that we’ve had those things just disappear when the corporation disappears. Most recently what? Hines when it was bought. Oh, heinz, of course. Very big in pittsburgh. Yeah, yeah. Okay, i could see that on the corporate policy said, okay, because i’m if i was one of your plan giving officers, i would i would question that life insurance beneficiary designation. If i got it, i got a letter that says, you’re a beneficiary of my life insurance policy and, of course, that share the beneficiary designation form. You don’t see that is equivalent teo to a request for a sixty five year old no, no, okay, go, we’ll take a break, not because of that, not because that the screaming with the break was coming anyway. You’re not cut off, don’t worry, stay with us, okay, okay. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked, and levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti m a r t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Buy-in top trends sound advice. That’s tony martignetti, yeah, that’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef. Lest you thought that i forgot about live listener love, certainly i did not. We can’t can’t send live listen live by city and state today because they because we are he recorded where we can advance, but of course the love goes out to each live listener. I just don’t know exactly where you are. Podcast pleasantries those listening in the time shift over ten thousand of you, wherever you are, whatever you’re doing as you’re listening pleasantries out toe all the vast podcast listeners and those very important affiliate affections our am and fm stations across the country, there may be ten thousand affiliate listeners who knows? I don’t really know the stations don’t have the ppm data, so maybe there’s no, maybe there’s another ten thousand, who knows? But anyway, however many however few affiliate affections out to our am and fm station listeners. Liz let’s, let’s bring you back to the to the conversation. Is there anything more that you want to tell us about sort of infrastructure that it has to be in place to make this career ladder of success? Yeah, i think what’s important is is looking a little bit at your own. Analytics. Um, so we talked a little bit about, you know, pits Numbers 45 visits fund-raising hundred thousand six agreement sent etcetera those numbers were not thought off the top of our heads are plucked from the sky we used data from our own individual major gift officers going back far fifteen years individual gift officers that were that have a very exceptional record individual gift officers that didn’t and came up with the numbers looking at the data that way so i think it’s important to tell your listeners that if they’re thinking about using a career ladder as a model for individual gift officers that it’s important to kind of examine your organization and and and what kind of data makes sense for you and looking at your own analytic and what those analytics tell you all right dave, anything, anything more you want to contribute to the to the infrastructure question? Well, i think that when you said when you set this up, you have to have some set of folks who are worried about the impending review dates so that all the information is gathered together. All the information is is put together that you do this in sufficient time so that any increase in pay is cleared by hr and buy your vice chancellor. You know, these big organizations, uh, you know, the cat time seems to creep up on you will be sitting there, especially the first two we did after january, you know, the place was basically more or less closed christmas spray, and suddenly you’re coming up on this deadline that you have to meet, and you’ve got it, you’ve got to be ahead of that, so you have to have people care about it and our curating the information, and then you’ve got to get everything in line with all the people have to know you’re going to do this so that when the person comes in, you basically handed the letter says congratulations or we’re sorry that it didn’t work. This time, but yeah, i mean it’s, not the kind of it doesn’t run on its own. Okay? And that’s actually could play into the the hands of small and midsize shops advantageously because they don’t have different levels. They may not even have a person who manages hr. It might be the it might be the executive director taking care of hr so you don’t have to. You have to worry about getting that. I guess that administrative buy-in we’re talking about a leaner organization. So there may be advantages there, making it a little easier to create something like this. Yeah, definitely. I mean, once you decide once, once you decide would exceptional means, uh, then i think that’s the big that’s, the big leap. Okay, what does it mean to be exceptional? And when you determine what it means to be exceptional, what happened? Whether you have three, four, seven, eight however many criteria you have, our metrics you have, you know, it could be managed in any sign shop, but i think where becomes difficulty is where, uh, you don’t really identify what exceptional performances. And, of course, liz, you made the point that it should come from your own data, your own analytics, not from some benchmarking survey of what’s, typical in organizations of your size or something like that. That’s. Exactly right. I mean, you know, when we look at pitt, or if you look at harvard, those that data might look completely different. Um, and so, i think, it’s, beneficial tio to look within your own organisation, because you really can’t control where the numbers fall. When it’s your own data. Yeah, yeah. How about ah approval for this, david? Was this something that that needed to reach the board or no? Well, actually, this needed to work its way up through the chancellor’s office. Okay, jess, um, yeah. So we started hr and, uh uh, it was approved by hr after months and months of work. And then it went up to the chancellor’s chief of staff and then that’s at the level at which it was approved. I was thinking that for a smaller, much smaller organization or non-profit this might go to the board. All right? Yeah, i was wondering presentation aboard because it has somewhat of an effect on the budget. But it’s not it’s, not as overwhelming as you thinking. Here’s actually, advantage. If i have one minute, this is this is very interesting. You have actually, you have just about a minute. All right, i’m on it. So, uh, remember that we have these folks who are scattered all the way through the year, and so from a budget standpoint, the actual amount in that year that they’re going to make might be cut by fifty percent. In other words, the actual outlay. Because hyre of when? They started. So, you know, the way it works is that you actually have. We have the three year anniversary date for twelve people already calculate. So we can estimate based on the numbers that we have thus far, what the cost in the budget would be over the next three to four years, which is really from a budgeting standpoint. Really? Value? Yes, i see the value. That. Okay. All right. We have to leave that there. Liz. I don’t know if you are aware dave volunteered you oftheir to accept questions that people listeners might have. Are you willing? Are you, in fact ah, consenting to that? They’re more than welcome to e mail me at sea lives at pit p i t dot edu see liz at p i t dot edu. Yeah. All right. We have to leave it there, and i want to thank you both david and liz, thanks so much for sharing everything. Thank you, tony. Appreciate a real pleasure. Okay, buy-in, if you missed any part of today’s show, you will find it. Where else? Tony martignetti dot com. In fact, where in the world else would you go pursuant? Full service. Fund-raising you’ll raise airplane loads more money, and i’m not talking about those two seater piper cubs like you see in the local county airport. I’m talking dreamliners seven eighty sevens, like emirates flies with the studio apartments in first class that have showers and double beds filled with money. Pursuant dot com. Our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, janice taylor is no. Sam liebowitz is the line producer today who writes this copy. I wish i had an intern to blame. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, susan chavez, dot com and our music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. 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Amador is the founder of idealised took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. 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Nonprofit Radio for August 21, 2015: Online And At Risk & Your Board’s Role In Executive Hiring

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Diane Oates: Online and at Risk?

Do you accept donations online? Have a “donate now” button? Are you using crowdfunding sites? You may need to register with lots of states, not just your own. Diane Oates is an assistant attorney general in the consumer protection division of the Florida AG’s office and a former National Association of State Charities Officials (NASCO) board member. (Originally aired July 11, 2014.)


Gene Takagi: Your Board’s Role in Executive Hiring

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group (NEO), walks us through this important board responsibility: hiring the executive officer.  (Originally aired July 11, 2014.)




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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with dextrose gas trea, if i was forced to stomach the mere hint that you missed today’s show online and at risk, do you accept donations online? Do you have a donate now button? Are you using crowd funding sites? You may need to register with lots of states, not just your own. Diane oates is an assistant attorney general in the consumer protection division of the florida attorney general’s office and she’s, a former national association of state charities officials boardmember that’s nasco and that originally aired on july eleventh twenty fourteen also, your board’s role in executive hiring jean takagi, our monthly legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo walks us through this important board responsibility hyre ing the executive officer that’s also from the july eleventh show last year on tony’s take two, i’m not speaking to the new york times we’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com here is online and at risk with diane oats with me she’s an assist, associate assistant attorney general in the ohio attorney generals charitable law section. She had been with the office for eight years. Managing a broad range of cases, including charitable gambling and charitable solicitations. She has handled multiple investigations and enforcement actions and is ohio’s point person for multi state enforcement actions. Diana it’s, welcome to the show. Thanks, tony, for having me on. Thank you very much for holding on. Sorry about that. No problem. I hope you enjoyed the music. Oh, i did, um, let’s. See, so these are laws that non-profits have to comply with. And a lot of these laws haven’t really kept up with the new solicitation methods that that charities have that’s correct. A lot of the laws are are older and do not address any sort of internet solicitations. Ah, there are such guy lines is the charleston principles which charities can follow in determining whether they need to register in a variety of states that they are soliciting online right? And we’ll get a chance to talk about the charleston principles. It’s, it’s, but there’s there’s not only online. But then there’s also the mobile giving world, of course, and that is growing by leaps and bounds. We actually just had a multi state they nasco it’s, the national state association charity officials put out some wise giving tips for charities on how to manage ah, and be wise on the internet when doing any sort of mobile giving or any sort of internet solicitation. So you definitely charity should be definitely protecting their brand and making sure they know who is soliciting for them on the internet. Um, and we’re going to get to that document in the wise giving tips the primary question, i think, is what what is a solicitation? And unfortunately that really varies from state to state, you’re correct. In a lot of states, the definitions might be a little bit different in ohio. Uh, it is when a person asked for anything of value, so it can’t be money can be time, and that donation would benefit a charitable organization or a charitable purpose and that’s that’s fairly consistent across the states. But but there are there are nuances when you start to drill down into well, okay, so sending us mail asking for a donation. That’s, that’s. A solicitation everywhere but as you start to go down, too, email oppcoll having a donate. Now, button on your site, driving people to the donate now button that’s, where it starts to get a little murky across the states. Definitely, and that’s, where the charleston principals come into play, and that’s, where the differences arise, because i believe only two states, tennessee and colorado, have adopted the charleston principles into law. Ah, many other states, including ohio, used them as guidelines for when to determine if a charity needs to register with our state if they have such a thing as it donate now, button or any sort of online solicitation. Okay, so we know that they’re adopted in only two states. Right now. Suppose you’re not in aa one of those two states. Can you just pick up the phone and talk to somebody and ask whether they use the charleston principles as guidelines? I would advise calling either the attorney general and your state or the secretary of state’s office, whichever office has the charity regulator located in it and see how they treat the charleston principles you could call up if you’re in ohio, call up our office, we would be able to tell you we used merely as guidelines to guide us as to whether charity needs to register. Obviously, if you are located in a certain state, if you’re located in ohio and you’re soliciting from there, you would have to register anyways, if you’re not let’s, say you’re located in west virginia, then we would go through the factors with you to see if you would need to register in ohio simply by having a donate. Now button on your website. A lot of times, though, i find clients make a call like that, but ultimately the final responsive to get is always we can’t tell you or we can’t advise you whether to register, okay, that and that might be the response in some states and ohio. I mean, we we would try to help you out as much as possible again, we can’t give legal advice, but i mean, i think we could steer you in the right direction isto whether you would need to register or not looking at whether you are, you know, mailing or emailing any solicitations to someone in ohio, if you are soliciting through an interactive website meaning you can collect donations straight through that website and whether you’re these are the two big factors whether you’re specifically targeting a person in our state or whether you’re receiving donations from a purse from people in our state on a repeated an ongoing basis or substantial basis, that so we would go through those factors and try to work with the charity to figure out whether you need to register here or not. We would definitely do that, ok, maybe ohio’s friendlier than a lot of states that that may very well be, but and i’m not saying it’s not worth the call it’s just that because it definitely is worth the call. As you said, either to the attorney, general’s office or the secretary of state, it is worth the call. This is that sometimes, you know, the ultimate answer should i register falls on usually it falls to the to the charity and, you know, and they’re sort of referred to their legal advisors, but it’s still worth the call because, um, you can you can get a fair amount of help. Definitely. Okay, um, we have just about a minute or so before break. Why don’t you explain what thes charleston principles are just so so everyone’s acquainted with them? Sure, they are guidelines which, uh, charity can follow, too. See if they should register in a state merely if they are soliciting on the internet. So what they need to look at if they are domiciled in a state, they will probably need to register there. And what i mean by domiciled is if they have their principal place a business in that state, if they’re not domiciled in the state, they need to look at there. Ah, non internet activities. And if those alone would cause them to register in that state, like if they’re mailing or calling people in that state, they would need to register if they are just asking for donations through their website. And if they’re either specifically targeting people in that state on their website for donations or they’re receiving contributions from that state on a repeated and ongoing basis for a substantial basis, then they would need to register in that state all about looking at the contacts in that state. All right, we’re going to take this break. When we come back, we’ll find out where we can see the charleston principles. They actually happen to be my subway read. I carry them with me all the time, and i read them every, you know, like, every six months or so, i just go back and read them on ben. Diane and i will we’ll keep talking about what’s a solicitation on, including talking about crowd funding sites to stay with us. Could you tell at the beginning of that interview that i was badly out of breath? That’s because i was late to the studio. This was the one hundred ninety ninth show. Andi was the first time i had been late. I had teo either called or texted sam. He had to play the music. I like one and a half times over by the time i got here i had run from the subway, which which is what held me up. So yes, if you if you thought i was out of breath, you were right. And then i i was looking forward to the two hundred show and hoping that i wouldn’t be late for that which which i was not let’s, do some live. Listen, love before we go to this break st louis, missouri clifton, new jersey i used to hang out at clifton a lot because my grandmother used to work at a big pharmaceutical company in clifton son of a gun. Which one was that? I don’t think it was mark. Well, there was a big pharmaceutical company i don’t think is very big and clifton anymore, but she used to work there and i would go meet her after and then my parents were dropped me off. We’d meet her there, and then she would take me to her house. That was in clifton, and we have another us, your masked we see you, we just don’t know where you are. So could be the nsa, fbi, cia, some other acronym. We’re on to you, and we are we are investigating. Also, let’s go to aa japan, konnichi wa, too, in chino, maya and mexico city, mexico, is with us. Also. Hola, que tal that’s really about the best i can recall from from high school, but that’s not so bad. I mean, i think, it’s, how you doing? Right. Holacracy tall tower, mexico city listeners and there’s more to come. Let’s, go to this break, and then we’ll go right back into this interview with diane oats. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent got lots of live listener love, let’s start domestic because we’ve got a lot of foreign listeners, of course, but let’s start domestic bethpage, new york. Many in bethpage don’t know who’s in bethpage do you know each other in bethpage live? Listen, her love to you there. Beverly, massachusetts, new bern, north carolina. I just spent some very nice time in north carolina. Thank you. New bern. Columbus, ohio. New york, new york. Live listener loved each of our live listeners. And, of course, there are more podcast pleasantries, of course, to those listening on the time shift where the iran a treadmill car, subway airplane, wherever you are, pleasantries to you. Nine thousand plus ofyou. Okay. Diana it’s. Um, let’s. See, where can we? What? We find these charleston principles to go and read them ourselves? If we would like to do so, i believe they’re located on the nasco net website. You can go to nasco net dot or ge. Okay. And that’s an a s c o net dot org’s the national association of state charities officials of which you are a boardmember. Yeah. And that’s, the organization that created the wise giving tips documents. So while we’re talking about finding documents, what what’s the full name of that document? Sure, it’s the internet and social media solicitations wise giving tips and the tips are for three separate audiences for charities, donors and fund-raising platforms, and it gives recommendations and tips on how to give and fund-raising wisely online. All right, the internet and social media solicitations wise giving tips and that’s also on the nasco website, right? Correct. Okay, crowd funding the crowd funding sites. Those raised a lot of questions. I get this a lot when i’m doing speaking, what if we are using crowd rise or deposited gift? What do who’s supposed to register them? Right? If you’re a charity again, i would direct the charity to the charleston principles. Usually on those websites, you’re not targeting a specific state unless maybe an event is taking place in a certain state or, you know, your charity is located in that state, so and i think it’s unclear also, whether the fund-raising platforms themselves need to register with states that’s still kind of an open question, okay? And also get questions related. When charity’s air working with community foundations and and the foundation is sort of the past through for the for the donations, the question then is who should be fun? Who should be registering and again looking at the charleston principles if it’s just a passer, entity that’s just doing some administrative work with processing donations, they might not need to register, so i would again and advise those community foundations toe look at the principles right for the community foundations and then the charity’s the same who exactly? Okay, but yeah, as we said, unfortunately, you don’t know for sure, except for two states, whether the state is is adhering to the principles. How come, how come, why is it that more states haven’t adopted them either? Officially, i guess through their legislatures or may be not as an act of the legislature, but just officially through the office that manages the charity registration process in each state, and that is a good question. I am not. I’m not really sure of the answer there, and yeah, i should probably talk to tennessee in colorado and see how they got that pushed through. I’m not sure why more states haven’t actually officially adopted them, okay, dahna because they are really cool, and they’re called charleston principles because i believe it was in meeting of nasco that was held in charleston, south carolina, where they were. These were adopted. I think they were. The discussion started there, yes, in charleston, south carolina, that’s. Why they’re called goodbye, not okay, but maybe not adopted there. Alright, yeah, attorney holding my feet to the fire e used to be an attorney, but so now that now i run roughshod over things. So thank you for being explicit. Okay, what about? We know there’s one state where you don’t have to register. Tell us about that. I believe that. Arizona? Yes. Yes, arizona. I believe they recently did away with their registration statue. I’m not too sure about that, but that is not a growing trend that icy. Definitely. I see that kind of an outlier. Okay, okay. So one point does not one data point does not make a trend. Things that i can’t even make a line from one point. Okay, but yes, arizona has explicitly said charities that are on ly soliciting in our state. I don’t need to register and yeah, they had a statutory system around registration and that was repealed or, you know, largely repealed. Yes. Um, now you made a point earlier that we wanted i want, like, just liketo amplify your home state where your incorporated that we should certainly be registered there. Yes, than any place where you have any principal place of business. Well, okay. So differentiating the inc you’re you’re only incorporated in one state, right? Because you’re not you’re not not-for-profits corporation, and that can only be one state. But you could have places of business. In lots of states, you can have the principal place of this that’s, probably in one state, but then you can have multiple locations everywhere and if you’re, you know, conducting solicitations from those locations and yes, definitely should be registering in the states. Now you’re you’re a, uh an important player in this because you’re a nasco boardmember but it’s so, um, divers, because we’re fifty difference sets of statutes and, um, timetables and fees and things do you do you get frustrated by this process? It it can get frustrating. And we definitely hear from our constituent charities that it is frustrating and that’s why we do have twelve states that are working on a single poor, cracked the website where charities khun go and register and they wouldn’t have to duplicate the process over and over again. Okay, this is the single portal initiative. Exactly. What more can you tell us about what state that is? Or i don’t mean state. You know what? What state it’s in, etcetera. What can you tell us? Uh, well, the single portal project is being headed by twelve pilot states. They include california, illinois, alaska, colorado, connecticut, hawaii, massachusetts, michigan. Mississippi, missouri, new hampshire and tennessee and basically it’s, a project that has three components one obviously is to create a unified elektronik registration system that will allow non-profit organizations and then they’re professional fundraisers to goto one site and fulfill their registration requirements for all states eventually at that site. Um, another component is also to be a public website where anyone can get this information that’s filed, academics could get it tio create analysis of emerging issues and trends. The public can look up this information to make more informed choices about their charitable giving and also non-profits can look up this information to compare thie effectiveness and cost of their professional fundraisers that they hyre and third, this would be a great tool for regulators. They could direct their limited resources away from registration and toward their core purpose of preventing fraud and misuse of charitable funds. Is this ah, envision to be a free site for charities? Um, that is a good question. I not sure about that. I know that this is kind of a three year time period where they’re going to try to get this off the ground rather soon and have it. Build up in phases over the next three years. I am not sure about the fees. I do not know that. Ok, ok. Um, timetable do what stage is it at now? It is at the beginning stages. Thie pilot states created a nonprofit organization in delaware. Teo, help develop and operate the website. And they just decided that the urban institute they chose them to design and build the single portal website. So it’s in the process of being built. And they are also establishing an advisory committee to help with the design and operation of the system. Okay, is it is it funded yet? Or were steven still too early for that it’s in the process of funding and the the non-profit, the multistate registration of filing portal the non-profit that was formed is reaching out to the non-profit community. Now, with grant proposals to help build up funds for this project. Okay, so that’s something to look forward to. Handup so is there not yet a timetable? Like when this should be live? Or maybe not all twelve states, but at least some initial minimum viable version? Um, i think i mean, the goal is to roll. Out the stages in the next three years. So hopefully in the next, maybe two years, the registration sites would be up and running. But please don’t call me that, okay? Okay, we won’t. Nobody listens to this show anyway, diane so you’re fine. Okay, well, we know that arizona standing alone. Not a trend, but are there any other trends that you do see coming up? The big trend icy is internet fund-raising on and that’s. Why nasco did put out this wise internet giving tips the intern fund-raising on the internet is growing. I believe in two thousand three it was about six point four percent of all charitable giving, but still it’s growing lead some bounds year by year. So we were really urge charities. Teo be aware of their presence on the internet and be aware of who’s raising money for them on the internet. A lot of thes fund-raising websites, they download the database of charities from guide star. And then anyone can just go on and start fund-raising for a charity, which is great. But you also want to make sure that no impostors are going out there and claiming that their associate it with your charity and trying to gain access to your donations, so check out the wise giving tips on also the charleston principles those will help you, andi will put, ah, put links to those on the takeaways from the show, which go up on the facebook pages afternoon diane, please leave us with the nasco conference that the charities are welcome to come, too. Yes, definitely. The two thousand fourteen nasco conference is on monday, october six, at the hyatt regency washington on capitol hill in washington, d c the theme this year is the evolving role of charitable regulation in the twenty first century. There are a lot of great panel scheduled i’ll just mention a couple first will be disaster relief and opportunities for collaboration between regulators and the not for profit sector. Um, our luncheon topic is our charities really charitable with our keynote speakers? Thomas kelly, who is a professor at u n c school of law, and john columbo, who’s, professor and interim dean at the university of illinois at chicago school of law and then one panel, i think, is going to be extremely interesting about ratings and evaluating charities. We have three. Panelists are taylor, who is president and ceo of the better business bureau. Wise getting alliance. Daniel bora chop, who is president of charity watch, and ken berger, who is the ceo of charity navigator. And then we also have panels on a messa you bit executive compensation are wise giving tips and then also a single portal update, so it should be a great conference, and you can get more information about the conference at nasco. Net dot org’s, thank you very much. Art taylor and ken berger have been guests on the show when we did the, uh, the altum the myth, the what was it, thea, the overhead myth letter that’s, right? We have the three signers of the overhead myth letter on and those they were two of them. All right, diane, thank you very much. Thank you, my pleasure, diana it’s, associate assistant attorney general in the ohio attorney general’s charitable law section. And i have an update tio what? Diane, i’m just talking about if you’re interested in this year’s nasco conference, that is october fifth of this year and ah, nasco net dot or ge is the place to get more information. I called my mother on the brake and asked her the company that my grandmother used to work for in clifton i was mistaking it was not a pharmaceutical company, but was i t and t international telephone and telegraph? Do they even exist anymore? It and t i don’t i don’t know if they do, but that was where there was a big plant that my grandmother worked at when i was growing up. Tony, take two and your boards role in executive hiring are coming up first. Pursuant, they do full service fund-raising they have web based tools for small and midsize non-profits do you need more prospects? I hear that a lot that that’s a problem. You need more prospects at higher levels and related to that. How do you know who’s capable of upgrade? This is what pursuance prospector platform does. It finds your upgrade ready donors. So you know who to pursue for larger. E-giving trent riker is the ceo at pursuing he has a background in non-profits for about twelve years, he leads this company. They are data driven, technology driven, and prospector platform is one of pursuing smart online tools. You’ll raise more money pursuant. Dot com, check them out new york times i’m not speaking to the new york times, and i implore them to stop stealing my guests. It happened latest incident. Latest incident was just last week. Remember, will mccaskill, the professor from oxford, oppcoll what happened? Okay, i do love scott stein, but not his time. Are we okay? Okay. I don’t mind. Scott stein a little. Well, who? Um it was a phantom sam throwing his arms up. He doesn’t know what happened. All right. Anyway, we’ll mccaskill so he’s on the show last friday. Of course, talking about his show doing good, his book doing good, better. And then on saturday, he’s in the new york times profiling his book doing good, better you believe that? And there was another time it was about two or three years ago and i’m sick of it. It’s happening too often do two points like that make a trend? Absolutely. The video where i explain this in more detail and you’ll see my ire. Is that tony martignetti dot com knock it off new york times do you know about fund-raising fundamentals? That is my monthly ten minute podcast devoted to fund-raising only for small and midsize shops, it’s fund-raising only not on ly for small and midsize shops, large shops could listen to, but i’m not thinking about them when i’m producing the show it’s a burst of fund-raising info i would say it’s only once. A month, i do it for the chronicle of philanthropy. So that’s published on their site and like non-profit radio, i picked the brains of experts and you listen on your own schedule. That one is not live. That is strictly a podcast. Recent ones preparing for your next recession with paul rosenberg from the bridge band group and boosting your plan e-giving with our own creative producer claire meyerhoff there’s info on fund-raising fundamentals at tony martignetti dot com and at the chronicle of philanthropy. Although gotomeeting durney dot com because i need the traffic and chronicle of philanthropy is doing just fine. That is tony’s take two for friday twenty first of august thirty third show of the year. Here is r wonderful. Ah, informative. Smart contributor on the law, jean takagi on your boards role in executive hiring jean takagi he’s with us. You know him? He’s, the managing editor, attorney at neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the very popular non-profit law block dot com on twitter he’s at g tak g ta ke jin takagi welcome back. Hi, tony in congratulations on one ninety nine. I’m looking forward to two hundred next week. Cool. Yes. I’m glad you’re gonna be calling in for with us. Thank you very much. Thank you, it’s. Very exciting. Really? One hundred ninety nine shows ago. It’s one hundred ninety nine weeks it’s it’s. Remarkable. Um, we’re talking this week about the board’s role in hiring the executive and i’ve i understand that there are a lot of executives in transition. I think so, tony and it looks like some surveys have confirmed that it’s certainly been syrians with some of my clients and even on boards i’ve sat on over the last couple years. And there’s, a great group called compass point out in san francisco there nationally known as one of the most respected non-profit support centers and together with blue avocado, a non-profit online publication, they have a national survey on leadership succession in transition going on just right now. The last time they published the results with in two thousand eleven, and they found that sixty seven percent of current executive anticipated leaving within five years and ten percent. We’re currently actively looking to leave right then, and in two thousand eleven, the economic times weren’t so were so great. So sixty seven percent anticipating leaving within five years that’s a pretty staggering number. So now we’re already three years into that survey into that five year projection. Yeah, and sixty seven percent of two thirds. So if we had held this show off until two thousand sixteen, then it would have been moved. But there’s a new one coming out, you said, yeah, well, they’re they’re just starting the survey online now so you can participate on that. I don’t know the website, but if you, you know google non-profit transition survey executive transition survey, thank you, you’ll get that okay, and its compass point it’s a compass point and blew up a goddamn kottler who you’ve. You’ve mentioned blue vaccaro before i know. All right, so, yeah, two thirds of of ceos were expecting to be in transition within five years and where we’re only three years into it now. So the presumably these people are still looking. What? But boards don’t really spend enough time preparing for this kind of succession, do they? Well, you know, in many cases they don’t, and sometimes, you know, they might stay, they don’t get the chance because their executive director comes up to them and give us in two weeks notice, and now, you know, the board may be used to meeting every month or every other month or even every third month, and now all of a sudden they’ve gotta ramp up their efforts and find an executive to come in in two weeks. That’s going to be really tough to do on dh, you know, again, if we say at any given time, two thirds of the non-profit executives are looking to leave their job, you know, it’s very likely that within your board term, you know, you may have an executive transition to manage, and sometimes with very little notice. So that’s that’s? Why? I think succession planning is just really a core duty of non-profit board. Well, how do we let them get away with this two week notice? I mean, the ones i typically see are you know, the person will stay on until a successor is found, you that’s, not your experience. Well, you know, you’re really lucky if you if you do get that situation, i think most non-profit executives are hired on at will basis. Meaning that there’s, not a contract to stay there for a given number of years. Either party can conception, rate or terminate the employment relationship at any time. And as the average, you know, employee may give two weeks notice to go on to another job there. Many executives who feel the same way that they, you know, they may feel like they own allegiance to an organization. But another opportunity comes up and it’s not going to be held for them forever. And they may want to move on. Um, and they may feel like what they gave the board really advanced notice that they might be looking for something that they might get terminated. So they may keep that information from the board until the last two weeks. Well, because all right, so that i am way in the dark because i would. I just presumed that executive directors, ceos even if small and midsize shops were not at will. But they were but that they were contract. I mean, when i was a lonely back in my days of wage slavery, director of planned e-giving i was in at will employees, which means you can end it. Like you said, you could end at any time and so can they like, if they don’t like the color of your tie one day they can fire you, you’re at will. But but that that’s typical for for ceos and and executive directors. Yeah, i think for smaller non-profits it’s very, very common. Oh, i just always assumed that these were contract positions with termination clause is and no. Okay, but, i mean, you know, it’s, your practice, i’m not i’m not disagreeing with you, i’m just saying i’m okay, i’m learning something s so that’s that’s incredibly risky. So it is. It just put you in that position of saying, well, i need to replace somebody immediately and i don’t you know, as a board we don’t meet very often can we even convene within the two weeks to find the process going? It’s going to be so much better if he had a plan of what happened in case you know, our executive every doesn’t give two weeks notice, and even if the executive says, you know, in your scenario, maybe a longer notice, maybe, you know, in six months, if they do have a contract at the end of my contract, i don’t plan to renew, you know, i think we should go through the process of looking for for a successor and having a plan or thinking about that plan that is just coming up with something on the fly is going to probably result in a much better choice for selection of a leader in the future and that’s going to be critical and how well the organisation operates and how the beneficiaries of your organization are going to do are they going to get the benefits of a strong organization or are thinking is suffer because the organization can’t do it? You can’t advance mission as well. It should. Yeah, i mean, you’re you’re calling it on the fly. I would say two weeks notice for an executive director. Departing is is a crisis even four weeks notice? Yeah, in many cases you’re you’re absolutely right. Okay, i’m right about something. Thank you. You’ve got something right today. All right. So what do we what do we do, teo, to plan for that? Just well, you know, i think the first thing the board has to do is start toe think about the contingencies. So what do we do and then actually want one thought that comes to mind that, uh, that you raised tony is should we get our executive director on an employment contract? If they are and that will employee do we want to lock it in? And they’re sort of pros and cons with that? If you’ve got, like, not the best executive director in the world, terminating somebody on a contract becomes much, much more difficult than if they were at will employees. So, you know, you kind of have to weigh the pros and cons, but, you know, revisiting your current executives director and the employment relationship is maybe step one. Oh, and suddenly he was thinking about, well, do you have a really strong job description that really reflects with the board wants of the executive director and on the basis on which the board is reviewing the executives performance on dh? Maybe the sort of initial question to ask in that area? Is do you actually review the executive director and that the board you absolutely should? You and i have talked about that the board’s is not part of their fiduciary duty to evaluate the performance of the the ceo? Yeah, i think so. I think it’s a core part of meeting their fiduciary duties that really, you know, as a board, if you meet once a month or once every couple of months or whatever what’s more important, you know, then really selecting the individual who’s going to lead the organization in advancing its mission and its values and implementing your plans and policies and making sure the organization complies with the law. Taking your leader is probably the most important task that the board has, because the board is delegating management to the to that leader. Yeah, absolutely. And i think it’s often forgot naralo overlooked that individual board members inherently have no power and no authority to do anything think so, it’s only as a group. When they meet collectively, can they take aboard action? So for individuals to exercise, you know, powers on behalf of the organization that has to be delegated to them and typically the person responsible for everything is that ceo or the executive director. We’re gonna go out for a break, gene. And when we come back, you now keep talking about the process. The what goes into this process, including the job offer. So everybody stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email. Tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact, i guess, directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Duitz gotta send live listener love, let’s. Start in japan with tokyo kiss are a zoo and nagoya. Konnichiwa, seoul, south korea, seoul. Some someone south korea, always checking in love that on your haserot. Moscow, russia, mexico city, mexico, ireland. We can’t see your city ireland’s being masked for some reason, but we know you’re there. Welcome, welcome, ireland, and also taipei, taiwan. Ni hao, nobody from china, that’s, funny, nobody from china today, coming back to the u s, we got cummings, georgia, in ashburn, virginia. Live listener love to you in georgia and virginia. Okay, gene. So now we’ve let’s say, we’ve learned that our exec is departing and let’s not make it a crisis situation, though let’s say this person is generous enough to give six months notice. So, you know, let’s, not make it a crisis. Where what’s our what’s, our what’s, our first step as the board. Terrific. And i’ll just add, even if you don’t, if you know your executive is not leaving any time soon and i think you should go ahead and start this process anyway. Oh, yeah, clearly we should be. We should have a succession plan in place. Yes, we’ve talked right? Okay, yeah. So i think the first thing to do is get a committee together so it might include boardmember some outside experts outside with the board. If you don’t have that internal expertise and just getting different perspectives out there, some of your other stakeholders might be really important in what, you know what you want to look for in an executive in the future. So get that committee together first, get the buy-in of the current executive director. So unless it’s going to be, you know, a succession plan for a termination? Yeah, we’re really unhappy with executive director, right? Let’s not get into that. Yeah, let’s get their buy-in and have them help in the process. Especially with your scenario where they’re giving a six months notice and everything is amicable. Let’s, you know, see? Shoot, who knows better about the organization than the executive director that’s in place right now. So i’m getting there buy-in and help contribution. I think it is pivotal. Does this committee have to be comprised of hr experts? Why? I think having a least one or two hr experts is going to be really helpful. But i i think it’s more than that. It’s, you need program people who understand what the executive you know roll is no respect to advancing the program. You need the fund-raising people to know well, what is the going to do with respect to fund-raising perhaps the seeds, the lead fundraiser and some small organizations as well. So we need thio gather a bunch of different people with different perspectives and expertise to figure this out. And i think that’s a very good point to include a t least a programme expert. Now, could this committee include employees, or does it have to be sure you can absolutely on dh? You know, you might even have have have different subcommittees in there. So eventually this is going to go up to the board. But as the committee’s doing the legwork for determining what? You need an executive director and putting together a job description, and and, you know, perhaps, but the performance evaluation is going to be based on for the future executive director all those things can get, you know, we’d be aided by the contribution from several areas. Okay, okay, what are your thoughts on hiring a recruiter vs vs? Not well, i you know, i think it depends upon what the organization shins resource is our and the organization should understand the marketplace it’s in a swell hiring two great executive director is the competitive thing. So, you know, if you’ve got a lot of resources and you’re able to you want to allocate an appropriate amount of resource is tio what i think again is making one of your most important decisions of the board? I don’t think you want to do this on the cheap at all. I’m just the same way i didn’t want you to do it on the fly or or or in a rushed matter-ness think you want to invest in this, and if you don’t have great expertise inside about on things about, like, doing job interviews and doing background checks on the sex thing, you know how to differentiate between one candidate and another when they all look good on paper and when they’re maybe professional interviewees, but they’re not there, maybe not great leaders. How do you figure all those things that if you don’t know, that dahna an executive search firm could be a great help, and it can just open up the marketplace of potential candidates as well, especially if they, you know, decide to do a regional or even a national search. It really can ramp up who who you’re going to see in front of you and the quality of the candidates that the selection comedian the board eventually will have to choose from. Okay, does the committee now come up with a couple of candidates to bring to the board, or is it better for the committee to choose one and bring that person to the board? How does this work? You know, i think the committee should be tasked with bringing several candidates up on sometimes it may be a multi tiered process so they might go through two rounds of screening, for example, and and at least let the board see who’s made the first cut. And then and then, you know, present to the board, the final, perhaps two or three candidates. If, if you’ve got, you know, the ones that are very close and in quality in terms of what the board want in an executive director, i think that’s pivotal. I wanted to add one. Nothing, though. I’ve seen this done before, tony and i don’t really like it and that’s when. If a search committee or research consultant comes up and says, you know, to the board, tell me what you want in the good executive director everybody, you know, spend five minutes, write it down and send it to me or take it home and email it to me oh, and tell me what you want and then the search consultant collates the the the answers and then that’s, you know, the decision about that’s what’s going to be the qualities you’re going to look for. I think this needs a lot of discussion and deliberation and the value of that, you know, that that thought process and that really difficult thinking and getting all those generative questions out there is going to produce a much better product in terms of what you’re looking for and who you can get and how you’re going to do it. Yeah, you you send this tio use email and, you know, it’s going to get the typical attention that an e mail gets, like a minute or something. You know, it’s it’s going to get short shrift. And your point is that this is critical. It’s it’s, the leader of your organization, you want do you want the contributions of the committee to be done in, like a minute off the top of their head just so they can get the email out of their inbox? Yeah, definitely. We could talk about board meetings and another show, but put this at the front of the meeting and spend, you know, seventy five percent of your time talking about this. This is really, really important, okay, you have some thoughts about compensation, and we just have a couple minutes left. So let’s let’s say we’ve the board has well, i can’t jump there yet. Who should make the final call among these candidates? Is it the board? Yeah, i think it should be the board that makes the final approval, but they they’re going to put a lot of weight based on what? The executive of the search committee, you know, tell them who they’re you know, the recommendation is okay, and i think that toe add one more thing to it is make sure the organization looks good to clean up your paperwork and your programming and even your facilities. Just make sure you’re going to be attractive to the candidate as well. Because if you want to attract the best, you better be looking your best as well. Okay, okay. And the with respect to compensation now, we’ve talked about this before. What? What’s excessive. And there should be calms and things like that, right? So it’s really important to make sure that the board or unauthorized board committee one that composed just board members, approved the compensation before it’s offered to the candidate. Even if you don’t know that they’re going accepted or not, once he offers out there that compensation package, total compensation should have been approved by the board. And you want to do it with using the rebuttable presumption of reasonable procedures unless you know its far below market value. Okay, if you get payed accessibly or if you pay somebody excessively, that could be penalty taxes for everybody. Including the board. Should be careful of that. We have talked about that rebuttable presumption before. Yeah. All right, then. We have to leave that there. I look forward to talking to you next week on the two hundredth great. Congratulations again. And i look forward to it as well. Thank you, gene. Gene takagi, managing attorney of neo. The non-profit and exempt organizations law group, his blog’s non-profit law block dot com and on twitter he is at g tak. Some updates, of course, too live listener love because you were listening to live listener love from july eleventh, twenty fourteen. So that’s a that’s. A little bit at a date, more people have joined us, including wilmington, north carolina, media, pennsylvania. Pottstown, pennsylvania, and spring lake, new jersey. I spent a lot of time very close to spring lake in belmar because my other grandmother, not the grandmother who worked at i t that was my mom’s mom. But my dad’s mom and dad had a home in belmar and i used to go there weeks on end. My parents were thrilled to get rid of me when i was four, five, six, seven, eight years old. Oh, my gosh. Lots of weekends in belmar. And i know that spring lake is a very, very pretty town. Also, uh, what’s the big hotel there where i’ve been for dinner, the breakers. Is that the breakers? That beautiful hotel? Ah, not literally on the water, but pretty darn close right across that little little just across ocean have love spring lake and interesting springlake media and pottstown you’re listening from itunes cool live listen love to each of you also joining us sao paulo, brazil, beijing, china ni hao and belong j portugal live listeners love to each of you now you might have noticed that on that july eleven twenty fourteen show, there was no podcast pleasantries and no affiliate affections. You see how this show is growing and expanding and innovating constantly on one hundred ninety ninth show. The next week was going to be the two hundredth. We don’t have podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections. Now we do so pleasantries out to all our ten thousand plus podcast listeners wherever, whatever you’re doing, affiliate affections love you too all our affiliate am and fm stations i want to waken affiliate affections. I’m just realizing it’s a f f f f f after two dafs squared affiliate affections! I don’t know, maybe that’s too that’s hokey. Besides, i like thea. I like the the ah what is it when all the words start with the same whatever that that i love it’s an alliteration. Thank you saying so. I liked the alliteration, so we’re sticking with affiliate affections. No. After two next week, i told you it was coming. Incentive pay for your fundraisers to fund-raising administrators from the university of pittsburgh. Very senior people share their innovative pay plan for their frontline fundraisers. If you missed any part of today’s show finding on tony martignetti dot com, where in the world else would you go? I i believe that i had said that i was going to stop singing weeks ago, but i must have been misinformed. It’s my show and do whatever i want. And if you don’t want to singing host, get your own show, i beseech you, go ahead pursuant full service fund-raising you’ll raise train car loads more money, and i’m not talking about those two person little flat beds that the people pump up and down like a seesaw to move along the tracks like, you know, oh brother, where art thou? I’m talking cattle cars, container cars, tank cars filled with money pursuant dot com. We’re going to go out with a live version of cheap red wine today. This is the live version from the two hundredth show, which was the week after the show that we just turned the two segments from scott stein came in the studio, brought his elektronik eighty eight keyboard, and he played cheap red wine, our theme music. And since it’s snuck in earlier today, phantom lee, we’re going to go out with it. Here’s. The live version from the two hundred show our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer show social media’s by susan chavez. Susan chavez. Dot com on our music is by scots. Dine with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great wait can agree on nothing. Wait till our ups from my down wait disappointed in each other. Now tell me, baby, and this love that we found. You know, you used to find me charming, but i can figure out how. And you said, you thought those handsome. But it doesn’t matter now. So came falling for my punch. On just long in time, we’ll allow, because i’m you got her empty promises. A bottle of cheap red wine. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. It took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe. Add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five.