Tag Archives: KPI

Nonprofit Radio for April 11, 2022: Measuring Equity


Danielle Fox, Ellonda Williams & Raj Aggarwal: Measuring Equity

We’re kicking off the 2022 Nonprofit Technology Conference (#22NTC) conversations, with a discussion of how equity can be incorporated into your nonprofit’s performance measurement. Sharing their collaboration are Danielle Fox at Union of Concerned Scientists, Ellonda Williams with B Lab and Rajneesh Aggarwal from Provoc.

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[00:02:45.84] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%,, I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I get slapped with a diagnosis of pollen, euro Maya’s itis. If you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show measuring equity, We’re kicking off the 2022 nonprofit technology conference conversations with a discussion of how equity can be incorporated into your nonprofits, performance measurement, sharing their collaboration are Danielle Fox at Union of concerned scientists. Alando Williams with the lab and Rajneesh Agarwal From provoke On Tony’s take two, you’re responsible for donor relationships. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is measuring equity. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 N T C. By now. You know what that is. You know that it’s the 2022 nonprofit technology conference, you know that it’s hosted by N 10 very smart savvy organization helping everyone use technology in their social change work. You know, all this. What you don’t know is that my guests now are Daniel Fox, Alando Williams and raj Aggarwal but now you do now you’re informed now, you know, as much as I do Daniel Fox is campaign and Science network manager at the Union of concerned scientists. Alando Williams is director of justice Equity, diversity and inclusion Jedi at B lab and raj aggarwal is president of provoke Daniel Ayalon garage welcome to nonprofit radio and and Farage welcome back. I hope I’m, I hope I’m as excited to have you back now uh, in half an hour or 45 minutes as I am now, Rogers already given me trouble before we even started recording. So I’ll have to check in with me every 15 minutes to see how my raj meter is is is jumping. Okay,

[00:02:47.88] spk_1:
what about what about my tony meter?

[00:03:07.24] spk_0:
It’s less important because that’s the relevance of that is raj Aggarwal. non profit radio that’s where you can measure your tony meter, but tony-martignetti non profit radio I can measure my raj meter anytime I want to. So pardon me, Yolanda,

[00:03:08.51] spk_2:
it’s House Rules,

[00:03:33.94] spk_0:
House Rules, House rules, get your own show essentially it was what my advice is to, to raj. Okay, let’s see, So let’s give everybody a chance to give a brief, let’s, you know, we’re not, you’re, you’re talking to an audience of 13,000 folks who are already in nonprofits. So you’re you’re likely not talking to potential donors, but for a little context please, you know, briefly Danielle, what’s the union of concerned scientists about?

[00:03:37.34] spk_3:
Sure. So the concern of concerned scientists is a science advocacy organization, essentially. We’re all about how do you put science and the scientific community to work for a better world. Uh, and that also means more just policies and political systems and so we’ll get into it a little bit soon but working with the justice and equity lens is fundamental for us to actually be able to fulfill our mission. Um And so that’s why I’m excited to talk about how we measure it.

[00:04:33.84] spk_0:
Thank you for supporting the work of scientists. Uh it’s especially now, but please thank you. You know, science scientists, they’re I think they’re not to be marginalized and and mocked there to be central to a central to a conversation and essential in a in a rational world. So thank you for doing that, Yolanda. Please tell us about B Lab

[00:05:26.14] spk_2:
you too. Yes. Um so the lab is a non profit network that transforms the global economy to benefit all people communities and planet. Basically what we do is really our vision is to create a collective vision of inclusive, equitable and regenerative economic economy. So we really come into organizations and businesses known as the corpse. Um and we certify them using our set of standards to really take a look at their organization. How are they treating them? How are they treating their community? How are they paying their staff? How do folks feel showing up as part of a member of that organization? And so collectively we have over 4000 dead corpse across the globe. Um and we all come together to really assess how to do things in a more um Jedi forward and equitable way with really um centering around economy and how do we change? How do we think about business

[00:05:29.74] spk_0:
is B lab the certifying like agency or not for for B corpse? It’s isn’t where folks apply for for for B corp status.

[00:05:41.24] spk_2:
You got it. That’s a really good question. So be lab, which is where I work. Um It’s part of our entire B lab global network. So we are movement. So be lab itself is the certifying body and that is where individuals kind of start um taking our basic impact assessment in terms of your organization to really assess how do you fare as it as it as it is against our current standards. Um and that kind of gets, gets your foot running in terms of getting certified to become a B corporation.

[00:06:20.24] spk_0:
Excellent. Alright, thank you raj. Tell us about provoke which is spelled P R O V O C. When I first met Roger, I thought it was provocative. He corrected me. Of course it’s provoked raj, Tell us about the the agency,

[00:06:29.74] spk_1:
thank you. tony So provoked is a brand, the narrative strategy and uh communications and campaign um firm that roots are that does their work through an ever deepening racial equity lens.

[00:07:08.94] spk_0:
All right, thank you all again for being here. Um Daniel. Let’s start with you. Oh well, I didn’t introduce the session topic which is can equity be measured lessons from a great collaboration Danielle. It seems that you’re the you’re the organization that was interested in as you said, Centering I guess you know, walking the walk now of uh justice equity, diversity, inclusion Jedi why why did that become important to you when whenever it did versus some other time.

[00:08:22.04] spk_3:
Yeah. Absolutely. Well I think it’s I think that the organization has had to do its own unlearning relearning and thinking about, you know, as we look at the political systems and systems of racism and injustice that we need to change how we do our work frankly and how we show up. Uh it’s a different definition of success if we’re going to be true to our mission and our stated values and so with that um we’ve tried to work hard and continue to continue to learn, continue to mess up, continue to make progress and continue to take steps forward. Uh, but the work that we did with provoke was specifically around our science network. So we have this network of about 25,000 scientists and technical experts that come to U. C. S. To say hey I want to grow as an advocate and get involved and put my skills to work for social and policy change now for us for us to truly be successful. That meant that we also needed to ground how we were organizing and cultivating scientists and researchers and putting their skills to work to rectify social wrongs. That includes fighting environmental racism. That includes addressing the disproportionate impacts of all the health and environmental hazards that are going unchecked that we’re trying to put science to work to help tackle. So at the end of the day, that is really what it’s about. I think we truly

[00:08:54.34] spk_2:

[00:09:42.84] spk_3:
you know better you have to do better, Right? So we needed to change how we define success. And one of the things that has been so fantastic is to see the power of scientists as authentic partners with communities most impacted by the issues we’re tackling. And so the initiative that we were working on is looking at how do we scale up the ability for scientists to join us and get active? And that was through building local teams. That’s a distributed network of now, more than 50 groups throughout the country who are getting involved, but we knew that we needed to hold ourselves accountable and learn deeply about what did it what did it mean to have inclusive teams and what did it mean to integrate a lens of justice and equity and how we did our advocate building and engagement. And so that’s where we teamed up with provoked for and that’s how we’re trying to um you know, put metrics and accountability to the progress and what we’re trying to do here.

[00:09:58.74] spk_0:
Okay. And I love when you know better you need to do better. Excellent. Um Yolanda, how did how does B lab fit into this collaboration?

[00:12:30.04] spk_2:
Well, there’s there’s a couple of different ways that we fit into this collaborate. So this particular collaboration uh was between um you know, as Danielle mentioned with garage um and collaborating, collaborating provoked provoked as a report. So the fun thing about that is that I worked really closely with other be corpse that are in this space. And so not only is provoked A B corp but provoke is a B corp that that works in the Jedi space that works in the equity space. And so we’re able to constantly um share learnings, share what we share what we um discovered in in our our dialogues and our policies and our practices and and from the results um of surveys and internal work that we’re doing. So we all always able to kind of like iron sharpens iron. Right? So I’m in good company um with provoking those over, over in that space to be able to think more about, okay if provoking the people up and we’re working with other organizations to really identify how do we show up what role does the lab have in that and how do we kind of take the ideas that are that are that we’re starting at the lab in this conversation while we’re trying to tackle eyes some of these critical challenges. These are global challenges. So um sharing learnings and adapting what we learned is really a way to uh drive the learning forward. And then these types of collaborations, we can learn what went well and a really fun thing is when I was even spoken speaking with Danielle like a lot of this stuff is the same thing. There’s a lot of similarities in this realm and I think what it does that drives the, the understanding that Jedi is everybody’s job, equity, bility is everybody’s job there. It doesn’t matter what your role is, right? I’m quote unquote an expert, I didn’t give myself that title, right. People see people in the space and we give each other these titles, but we’re all accountable to this work. We’re all accountable, we’re showing up differently and I love what Danielle said as well around when you know better, you do better because then that means that you have to think differently and so our session and when we talk about how do we measure, how do we measure equity? It really starts with asking ourselves a lot of questions, why are we doing this way? You know, why do we always do it this way? Who who, who are we thinking about? Who’s in the margins and in these intersections there is no one size fits all. So something that Danielle and and and their team might do might be very different. But in the learnings of what went well, what are the challenges, what, what, what we still need to elevate um is where we can all try to come together to identify solutions that are gonna be solutions that we all can, can, can use.

[00:12:42.41] spk_0:

[00:12:43.18] spk_2:

[00:13:34.14] spk_0:
now raj despite your, your pre recording admonition that I’m not turned to you too much. I promise. Trust me, trust me, I won’t, but I will at this point because you were the um I don’t know, maybe it’s not fair to say the catalyst, but you were the you were the, the, the helpers. That’s a great word, that that’s a sophisticated technical term. You were the you were the you were the drivers for the union of concerned scientists. So what should, what should nonprofits be thinking about? Like at the very early stages, what did you advise Danielle and her team, you know, at early stages to be, to be, I don’t know, assessing uh measuring or you know, given where they were at the time. You know, what was your advice at the earliest stages is what I’m trying to get at.

[00:16:02.34] spk_1:
Yeah, so first of all, um I just really appreciate Danielle and Yolanda and I learned so much from them all the time and just how we show up in partnership. So I was really taking this as an opportunity to learn from them. Um I appreciate the term catalyst and also with our work with the Union of concerned scientists, I was reminding the client just the other day that, you know, the term catalyst is a is a term and chemistry, which I actually have a degree in which I rarely use and the purpose of that is a catalyst is something that helps to reduce the activation energy of a chemical process. So, so it’s going to happen anyway. But hopefully through an intervention through hopefully our team, we can maybe get there a little bit quicker. That’s that’s what a catalyst does. So I’ll take it. Um um so you know, with with so obviously part of the reason that we participated in this work is we do a lot of work on equity. And often people ask this question, you know, because of just the nature of the world. Business capitalism is are we really getting there and how can we measure it? And how can we report on it? Um and that’s obviously really important to do that as well. And so some of the things that we asked, you know, for certain scientists to do was to really think critically about why they want to change the world, how they plan to turn that into reality and what best metrics represent that success. And so for example, sometimes we would hear language from um union of concerned scientists around things like high impact actions. And so we asked them to specify what is the list of those actions or underrepresented scientists. And then we asked them to get really specific about what does that mean race, economic status, gender identity, disability. And to amplify and support. And what does that mean? And one of the big things that came up in our session with uh N. T. C. Just last week is this idea of impact and how that’s been so much that comes up in nonprofits, but we don’t really define it. So this practice that really was a whole practice of definition and then determining what tools and measures you can go about doing it. And Danielle will talk to you also about like what has happened since they started doing this and where did it work? And where did it didn’t, where does subjectivity come into this? Because some of that, so many of these things are going to be subjective through how a person might perceive what they’re actually doing. Um, and it may not be measured by a specific number. So, um, that was, that’s just one thing in here. So what the union concerns scientists did was they established six key performance indicators and 15 supporting metrics to evaluate the growth of local engagement program across the US, um, including an equity specific KPI

[00:18:39.74] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Here’s the ways that they can help you media relations. You’ve heard me talk about this, that’s the relationships building those relationships with outlets like the chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times Market watch fast company Washington post. All places where turned to clients have gotten placements, content marketing. If you’re interested in white papers, Your annual report falls into that. You want them to do research for you. Maybe research on a program and then publish that research for you to share with donors, foundations. You know, other supporters research. They can do research for you and write about it. Speech writing, ghostwriting training on media management, media relations website. They can build website for you website creation redesign. I haven’t talked about that one. But yes they do that too. So all you know media relations, content management thought leadership web social media social marketing turn to communications, right? Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to measuring equity. Raj said this is all very subjective. I was thinking ethereal you know, but it’s it’s uh it’s it’s it’s hard to it’s hard to grasp however you you know how every whatever word you use to describe it. So Danielle, you know how did the U. C. S. Start to start to start to grasp it. You know, start, I mean eventually you end up with like raj said, you know, six KPI s and 15 supporting metrics, you know, whatever. But you know, how do you take that incrementally with this? Very subjective these very subjective concepts.

[00:21:57.84] spk_3:
Absolutely. Yeah. I’m happy to I’m gonna try to discuss it. It might sound a little messy when I discuss it but that’s so actually symbolic of what the processes and the fact that it’s just messy. Let’s do it. Oh no, it’s fine. Honestly if we’re going to talk about equity, it should always be a little uncomfortable. Um so one of the uh you know, one of the very first things I think we did with roger and the team and I really appreciated it was to just hold space for dialogue about why this even matters and what impact looks like. And I don’t mean that vaguely, we had to do a tactical visioning exercise. What described, what does impact look feel smell like when you see it, when does it take place? Um, and I think that that was so critical because we took the time to ask ourselves questions before thinking we knew anything just like Yolanda had said. Um, and so it was the time to ask ourselves those questions and overlay that with our theory of change. Why are we even saying that these local teams need to be organizing with the commitment to equity, What is equity scientist organizing really looked like. And so we held some time to really build that, which was so critical because it ultimately served as a compass for when my team of organizers waited through all of the possibilities of things we could look at and measure. And we’re from a science based organization. So you might imagine we are curious souls that want to learn a lot of information and bless rajan their team. They sat with us through it and said, well it sounds like you’re interested in your heart is telling you you need to know all of these things that might have something to do with it. But at the end of the day when we just talked about that compass of what does impact actually look like? What are the most fundamental indicators that you can consistently track that will tell, you will do the real learning of letting you know if you’re making progress or not. And so it was really the process of starting big and messy and then running through all sorts of variations of how we may or may know whether we are in fact grounding equity and inclusion in our teams based organizing and then painstakingly. But we had we built good trust along the way. So that was so critical um narrowed down to core um things that we were going to measure. So we ultimately had two of our six core keep key performance indicators that helped us measure three things, diversity of the team’s inclusive practice of our team leaders and how they are building and running those teams and the members education and engagement in terms of what is explicitly addressing equity or amplifying underrepresented upper underrepresented voices and the issues that we’re working on. And we had to define those throughout the way to be able to measure that. So that was a little bit of the process.

[00:22:06.04] spk_0:
You were able to capture those three Concepts in two Kpi s.

[00:22:46.24] spk_3:
Yeah, we we collected we collected for a few different things. So that is, you know, a number of instances where underrepresented scientists were supported or where partners were grounded in the work that uh some of the team members were um, taking up, uh, that also includes things like number of teams. What is the diversity in the makeup of that team and discuss the actual practices and how you’re running those teams. So we did that through some collection of different survey questions which we can dive into a little bit later. It was an iterative process. I’ll tell you that much.

[00:23:06.94] spk_0:
Yeah, no, I can tell for sure. And and and just for some context, I guess, how does this relate then to um, performance measurement? Like is this, is this is this drill down to individual employees or volunteer? No, I don’t know. It’s volunteers or employees like performance evaluations.

[00:24:23.14] spk_3:
Yes, that’s a good question. This for us is more about impact measurement. Um, and so the reason why we did this all along is to make sure that the data, we’re going to need to collect data about how these local teams are working and building. And it seems fundamental to us to make sure that equity inclusion were part of those because we were talking about this earlier. You manage what you measure, right? And so we needed to make sure that our key performance indicators included equity and inclusion and how we were building out our program. So the whole goal of those indicators are to help us learn as the people, the practitioners and the people who are building out this program are we actually making progress on those things that we are saying we care about and then to hold a space for accountability when we actually have to assess the growth and impact of our program. And then also just finally to invite a culture of learning both for us as staff who are trying to do things differently and for our science network members who are trying to join us in a movement to evolved scientists engagement and advocacy with a stronger equity lens. So it served more of a learning and accountability versus a performance performance evaluation.

[00:24:46.04] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um Alondra, your you wanted to take away, you know, you wanted to learn lessons takeaways like what, what are you hearing as as Daniel is describing this?

[00:27:56.34] spk_2:
Ah what I’m hearing is excitement, right? I’m hearing, I’m hearing alignment. Um uh we, we talk a lot about accountability especially at black. So, so um when you’re thinking about KPI S and I’m something that Daniel said around like you when you’re measuring, like that’s what you’re focusing on, your focusing on what you’re measuring. And so if you’re not measuring something that is a clear kind of like red flag of like if you’re not measuring it, you’re not tracking it, you’re not paying any attention to it. Um and so you’re measuring what really matters. And so it’s an outward depiction of what an organization truly matter, what matters to an organization, look at what they’re tracking and look at what they’re measuring. Um and so as a network B lab and we have all these reports, thousands of people were measuring what matters. But how are we if we’re trying to build an inclusive economic system and business is at the center of that? How do we do that? How do we have conversations with people? I might be an expert in the area. Um and raj talked about his degree and we’ve got we’ve got scientists and I’m not a scientist, right? Ah And so how do we educate people around how to approach their job? A lot of times we have conversations around Jedi and someone will say what you’re the Jedi expert? Like why do I have to do that’s your job? And I say, but it’s not, it’s not. Um we talk about what makes a leader, what makes a good business, what makes a leader someone you want to follow? Um if you’re doing things and how do you make people feel, how do you make other businesses feel? How do you make your community feel right? And so if we are we’re all knowing better and doing better and sharing this information, how do we take this information and have further dialogue around things like our standards are certification requirements? How do we measure what matters? And if we have conversations with our community that helps us understand what are the needs of the most marginalized in order to center in order to think more Jedi forward. We have to always ask ourselves who are the most marginalized. Um who who who are we not thinking about? Who are we creating barriers for a lot of times. We look at the outcomes and what’s gonna happen. But we don’t ask ourselves the question around, have I created a barrier? And more specifically, have I created a barrier for a representation that is traditionally or historically marginalized? And the only way to do that is to ask questions. Right? And so what Daniel said around dialogue. So we’re learning around listening to the community. What are the challenges that organizations are having when they’re trying to approach? Not only their KPI but whenever they’re approaching their supply supply chain, whenever they’re approaching their community communication, whenever they’re working with community, uh what are the challenges that they’re experiencing? Because if we’re looking at that, that is the information that we can use to build more resources, more uh more policies that are actually going to help uh create equitable outcomes. It’s gonna help our tools and our programs and just general accessibility of the work that we do.

[00:28:17.34] spk_0:
So, so Alondra is this is this work that’s going to be um spread among the b corp Among these 4000, you know, be corpse that that they’re going to start to be held 2, 22 Jedi standards, as I don’t mean, I don’t mean tomorrow, but tomorrow’s Saturday. But I don’t mean

[00:28:26.24] spk_2:
monday monday

[00:28:34.34] spk_0:
either. Give yourself some time. But um, this is this is this is this eventually going to be part of b corp I don’t know the approval or

[00:28:37.74] spk_2:

[00:28:39.02] spk_0:

[00:30:08.34] spk_2:
certification and verification. Um, so let me clarify so a couple of things we already tracked. So Jedi Jedi and equity bility, um, inclusion. These are already built within our standards. Um, but we are an organization, like many other organizations where trucking along and we’ve been in existence for some time and so, um, what we used to do to measure the past or not the things that we’re going to be able to measure the future as things are growing and as things are changing. So why we have always measured Jedi, why? We’ve always measured things like what’s the difference between your highest paid individual and the organization and the lowest paid individual in the organization. And the farther across that spread is indicates that there’s less equitable ability built into your systems in the organization. So we already looked at things like that. But what we’ve done in this past year is we’re really, really looking at all of our requirements. We’re looking at how we measure what truly matters. And so how do you measure equity? What is, what is that question that we write in the basic impact assessment that is gonna give us the information that we need to track how well an organization is doing identifying those questions if it’s difficult identifying those parameters were global. So it’s not just us, it’s not just Canada, I mean we’re a global network and so we have a lot of things to take into consideration. Jedi is not one size fits all, um, something that one global partner might do might not be suitable in another region of the world. So we are constantly challenged the lab Global with creating standards that are actually going to be not only accessible, but something that’s going to translate across the globe. So that’s why it’s important for us to ask lots of questions ourselves.

[00:33:34.04] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. You’re responsible for donor relationships. What do I mean, I’m talking about keeping relationships strong, moving relationships forward. I’m also talking about when there’s been a solicitation not lettering, not letting, not lettering, not letting that solicitation sit fallow, but you follow up on solicitations right? You never want to have a solicitation hanging out there that looks like you didn’t take the thing seriously to begin with. So it’s your responsibility to keep relationships strong and moving forward with your donors. You do that in ways like remembering milestones, birthdays, anniversaries, uh, the anniversary of their very first gift to the organization. Their 20th gift to your nonprofit, their 50th gift milestones like that. Um, so milestones in their personal lives, but also related to your nonprofit, keeping in touch with just, you know, handwritten notes, phone calls where it’s appropriate. Not every donor wants phone calls. I realized that however they want to be communicated with keeping in touch in those ways, email phone notes. Keeping relationships strong and moving forward. This is your responsibility as the leadership, as the fundraiser, as the board member involved in donor relationships and fundraising. It’s not your donors responsibility to keep in touch with you. It’s your responsibility to keep in touch with your donors. And that’s what I mean by keeping those relationships strong and moving forward. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for measuring equity with Danielle Fox, Alando Williams and raj Aggarwal, Danielle. Let’s talk about leadership by end. I don’t know if, you know, maybe maybe it wasn’t an issue for the the union of concerned scientists ceo necessarily or you know that c c suite level, but there must have been leaders at some at some levels in in U. C. S. That were um, I don’t know at worst, you know, unwilling at best unaware and and and so for either reason, you know, not not accepting what you C. S. Was trying to do. How do you whatever management level we’re talking about? How do you what’s your recommendations for getting that kind of buy in among leadership because it’s it’s essential otherwise this work is going nowhere, you know. So what do you recommend there?

[00:33:37.34] spk_3:
Oh that’s such a good question. I will try

[00:33:39.69] spk_0:
To finally only took 29 minutes. Almost all right.

[00:33:43.25] spk_3:
Yeah. The other ones were no, you’re

[00:33:45.83] spk_0:
suffering a lackluster. There’s no question about it. There’s no question.

[00:33:52.24] spk_3:
I uh I’m happy to to try to take a crack at that. Um and but also I’m really interested with uh with what Yolanda and Roger have that, so if you don’t mind, I’d love to have like that be a team effort. Um

[00:34:05.13] spk_0:

[00:34:21.54] spk_3:
but I’d say, you know, there there was no sort of, there was no overt objection to it. It was just more of a sense this understanding that when you want to track when you redefine success and you want to meaningfully track that, that means we’re gonna have to have a hard look at our systems and our status quo of how we usually track and monitor things and to to unpack some of that and potentially to have to change um

[00:34:41.64] spk_0:

[00:34:42.02] spk_3:
we’re defining as success and what even systems or tools or capacity we have to be able to then consistently monitor and learn from it. So I would say that it wasn’t, there wasn’t a particular opposition, it was just more of a question of,

[00:34:59.74] spk_2:

[00:37:28.33] spk_3:
what does new success actually look like. Uh and I think for that the approach was more just creating an authentic space for learning that no matter what level you are in an organization of space to ask critical questions together and to relearn and re envision together and have really difficult conversations about what we might need to be doing differently and why that’s important for what contribution we’re trying to have is so fundamental and that it doesn’t from my perspective and maybe this is my personal opinions towards like hierarchy were all at the end of the day, people with different ranges of responsibilities that hopefully if we’re showing up at that meeting and that conversation and good faith want to do better. Um, and so maybe that’s naive of me perhaps, but I think some of it was just creating a lot of spaces without particular judgment, but very honest, candid conversations about um what what’s different, what does success actually look like that needs to look different from how we’ve defined it before and then um what do we need to do as a team to be able to outfit ourselves to authentically monitor that and hold space to check back for whether we’re really um meeting the markers that we have and if we aren’t how we’re willing to adapt. And so maybe this is my own opinion every I’m an organizer at heart. So everything’s a campaign and part of that is a mix of sure pressure, but also persuasion and bringing people on board to join in a collective vision with you and see their role in it. And so I think there’s a lot of conversations along the lines of that and then a lot of conversations about if we’re going to do more of this, what are we going to do less of and having to make difficult decisions about what we prioritize and actually invest in. Uh those were difficult conversations and that is a okay. And so just giving yourself the time to work through that so that when it comes time to start up these key performance indicators and this initiative with equity and inclusion as barometers for progress that we’re all on the same page and were brought in and we know how we’re going to do it.

[00:37:57.13] spk_0:
Well if any of that was naive then I share your naivete. So I don’t think it was, but that’s because I’m with you all right. Uh Irlanda, do you wanna Danielle opened the door? Do you want to talk about? You know what I want to focus on leadership? Leadership buy in for Again, it could be anything from unawareness too. I don’t know. It could be blatant racism and just unwillingness, you know, at the at the extremes. What about leadership by in which again I think is essential to this work.

[00:42:30.50] spk_2:
Well uh it is right, it’s not, there’s no guests, right? Uh leadership buying is absolutely essential. Um And it is going to help drive longer term change and success, but a couple of things that Danielle said makes me think like that. So I’ve had a couple of experiences. I have had a myriad of experiences, I’ve had experiences where your your stuff trying to like you’re back at the business case, right? You’re back at business case. So so for those of us in the in the Jedi, I say look at Danielle Danielle, for those who can’t see, Danielle is vigorously nodding her head. Um the business case. So when Jedi hit the scene, when equity diversity E. D. I hit the scene, um the business case was like a really big thing because when we think about Jedi, it’s really rooted in how people feel the experience that people have or lack thereof, and how those experiences create inequities that can show up in education, obviously in business um in the health care system, you know, pretty much any system that we have with that inequities can can show up in. So what’s important for us to take into consideration, how do we get this by it? And so what we had to do was is we had to make the business case which was a lot of contributed in money, right? We had to say this is this is relevant to a business because businesses that are diverse that have diversity of thought, not just the color of someone’s skin, diversity of thought, thrive, They do better. And there’s years of evidence for that. Um so long before we really were having conversations about inclusion and justice and how people feel we were having conversations around your business should do this and it’s worthwhile for your business because you will get a return on your investment financially. Um, and I love the fact that we’re kind of shifting away from that and uh I’m having a lot less of those conversations and a lot more conversations of I know that there’s a problem. I recognize that something must be done. I have no clue where to start or I know that there’s a problem. I just don’t see it, help me learn how to see it and in that work it’s very, very difficult and it takes a long time. And so I’m lucky that in my current experiences I have with leaders that that know that there’s a problem and want to do something about it. But the struggle sometimes is what one thinks is the solution to the problem is not the solution to the problem. So what I see happens is you get the buy in. Sometimes you might have an organization where you have buy in from leadership. However, when you talk about what the actual solutions are, that’s when there is discrepancies, there’s discrepancies on whether or not we can actually solve this problem by by enacting that solution. And so we have to have a lot of conversations around resources and for me, I’m able to really elevate vision right, what is the vision of your organization? So I could ask that all the time. Staff say how I would love for my organization to put E. D. I first right to elevate equity. What is the conversation that I need to have with my manager, with my boss, with my supervisor, with leadership? How do we have this conversation? And I really challenge you to kind of like look at the vision and I’m encouraging those who really feel like they want to be a part of organizations that are putting this type of work forward. Take a look at the vision of the organization that you work at. We have an inclusive equitable regenerative system. So I was able to say if we want to do this work, we have to think about equity, but we have to take into consideration if we know that we’re not only going to get a return on our investment are people are going to feel better. They’re going to want to be here. They’re going to um, feel valued being here. You don’t have to work your employees to the bone to get dedication from them and treating them like human beings is how you’re actually going to be able to work together to create not only solutions but a space where everyone can show up as their true, authentic selves and feel good about being at work. Um, and we’re not there yet. You know, we’re not there were not there at the lab right? We still have these challenges internal to our organizations. Just like other organizations.

[00:43:03.80] spk_0:
I am gratified that you’re having fewer conversations that are based around money. You know, bottom line, that’s, that’s encouraging in the end it is all it is all about the bottom line but that you’re having fewer conversations that are rooted in that, you know, that are, that are explicitly about why it’s better for your, you know, how it will help your bottom line um, Raj. I’m only turning to you because Danielle suggested that you might want to comment on this. So uh would you, would you like to on the, on the buy in? We just have about 10 minutes left or so.

[00:43:18.30] spk_1:
I don’t have anything more to add than what these folks do.

[00:43:22.05] spk_0:

[00:43:22.68] spk_1:
I did share though, Danielle with Lane frisco and Denise done. Um how happy it makes me here? How happy it makes me to hear you share this in this way. So thank you so much.

[00:43:35.90] spk_2:

[00:43:36.50] spk_0:
you’re thanking me.

[00:43:37.80] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m always thinking tony and I’m thinking Danielle and of course dr Williams all the time.

[00:43:54.20] spk_0:
Yeah. Well, these voices, right, the conversation needs to be elevated and I can help deliver it to another 13,000 folks. So, um Yolanda, I have a question um, I am, I am, I am, I am I because you’re the Director of, of Justice Equity diversity inclusion. I am. I am I to 2019 If I refer to D e I

[00:44:07.89] spk_2:

[00:44:08.83] spk_0:
I am I if I’m if I’m three years old, if I’m living in the past. Tell me and I’m asking you d i is what it used to be. But now I see Jedi more, I see Jedi emerging, I know

[00:46:07.58] spk_2:
are you 2 2019? Ah that’s that’s a lot of pressure to put on. Maybe you’re not there and you’re jeremy Tony and I respect that. But I will say I will encourage folks that are still really focusing on like, quick. The fastest Jedi training that I ever can give right is um, the justice aspect is is really, really important because it takes into consideration where we are, And it’s really difficult for us to look at how the existence of things as they are right now in 2022 without paying homage and respect to the fact that there is a very specific reason why we are facing the inequity that we face today. And so it’s important for us to bring that element to the conversation, because then we can say the reason there’s a really good reason why we need to have a conversation with our HR department about whether or not this level to position needs to have a bachelor’s degree, and that is that role actually necessary? Or have we are we a product of a of a society that folks of privilege and power decided what was necessary in order to be able to succeed again defining what that success looks like. And so we are just perpetuating that same ideology, even though we know that’s not true, and so how do we really root equity diversity and inclusion in in, you know, in a way that allows us to change from the way things used to be with recognizing that it’s not going to get us to where we want to go. So that’s why justice is a really key component. But again, some folks aren’t there in their, in their Jedi journey. Um, and I aspire okay,

[00:46:43.58] spk_0:
well, and I regret that I personalized it. I got, but I was thinking, I was thinking to myself, but you know, because I don’t mean to put pressure for Jedi, I love Jedi Jedi warrior. You could be a Jedi warrior. Um, yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, let’s see Danielle, why don’t you, why don’t you leave us with some, uh, inspiration if you like or something that you think we haven’t talked about yet doesn’t have, doesn’t have to be, uh, doesn’t have to be grand inspiration. Maybe just something that we haven’t talked about yet that you’d like folks to know about, uh, this work, this journey that that you see us went through. I’m gonna give you the chance to, uh, to leave us.

[00:48:52.87] spk_3:
Sure, you know, it, this is gonna sound a little atypical, but I think the for me, what’s been inspiring is that we’ve already learned, What isn’t working from what we did with provoke. Don’t take that personal rush. I mean, that is a wonderful wonderful thing because what weird doing is we’ve built in an invitation to ourselves as I would invite our advocates and any other organization that um is questioning whether they um have the knowledge or expertise to deepen equity and justice in their work and have to measure that. Um I think we’re a perfect example of organization that doesn’t have a deep expertise in this, but still wants to do it and is trying to do it, had built out something that I think really has helped ground us to be able to see how we need to keep improving. Um and that, for me is uh pretty inspiring because Ellen and I were talking a little bit about this before very often this can feel like an such a high stakes topic that can sometimes paralyze people from investing in it in taking steps. And I think the inspiring thing here is we’re already learning in the first couple of years of using these KPI s ways we can organize the local teams to to be a little bit better and more thoughtful in justice and equity, and we’re also learning that um there’s opportunities to reiterate and and strengthen our key P. I. S. That is an invitation for more learning and accountability, and for me that’s pretty, pretty exciting because this is ongoing work. I don’t think there’s gonna be a year that you see us as check we are an anti racist organization, it’s going to be ongoing work, and that’s exciting.

[00:49:21.27] spk_0:
Perfect inspiration. Thank you. And I realized that uh I made a mistake, Yolanda, I’m gonna let you take us out because B Lab, the lab is in this for takeaways. What what you what you can share with your your your 4000 certified companies. So you take us out with some with some takeaways.

[00:50:59.06] spk_2:
I love that. Um don’t let perfection be in the way of doing something right. Doing doing nothing is never good enough. So I love what Danielle said about a moving target as well. Um lean into uncomfortable that we don’t know what a utopian world looks like. We do not know what an equitable world looks like. We don’t know we haven’t had it yet. That’s the beauty and all of this is like we can imagine whatever we want and so be a part of what the new normal looks like. Step up and take apart to stake your claim because we’ve all we are all a product of of systems that were created before we got here. We are in a unique juncture in society in history that we can take a part in what success and the new normal books like moving forward and we can create systems that actually are inclusive for everyone that allow everyone to succeed regardless of where they were born, what they looked like, their social and economic status, um sexual orientation. We have a weird and unique space that as our leadership and when I say leadership, I’m not just talking about organizational leadership, I’m talking about in the world humans and and society members who have been a part of making decisions for a long period of time. That shift of power and influence is shifting and we’re all getting apart and we and so this is a unique opportunity, don’t squander your opportunity to be a part of something different for your Children, for our future for youth. Um we get one shot. Um and and this is gonna be, this is gonna be shaped the next 500 years of society. And so I want to take, I want to encourage everyone to kind of step up to the plate and and take ownership of your part in what the future’s gonna look like for others.

[00:51:45.46] spk_0:
Perfect, thank you. That’s Alando Williams, Director of justice, Equity, diversity and inclusion at B lab, also Daniel Fox Campaign and Science Network Manager, the union of concerned scientists and the other person around was is raj Aggarwal, president of provoke who asked me to not focus on him too much. So I took him at his word. I assume he was. I assume he was honest when he’s when he made that recommendation, made that made that request, I should say so.

[00:51:50.41] spk_1:
tony what do you think? Don’t you think it was better to focus on Dr Williams and Danielle.

[00:52:03.35] spk_0:
I do, but I’m I’m disappointed that you didn’t expect me to do that anyway. So little faith after the third time on the show and still still thinks I’m an underperformer. Thank

[00:52:10.62] spk_2:
you like I know how to do my job and I didn’t, I didn’t need you, but thank you, thank you. All right,

[00:52:31.55] spk_0:
maybe the fourth time if there is 1/4 for you, I’m not sure I would say anybody wants to be on nonprofit. radio Uh, don’t partner with Raj in 2023 because you’re greatly reducing the likelihood of being of being selected. Uh, Alondra Danielle raj, thank you very much.

[00:52:34.42] spk_1:
tony it was really nice when we received your emails, valuable

[00:52:43.75] spk_0:
conversation, I appreciate it and appreciate you all for being good sports to while I uh, make fun of raj, especially

[00:52:49.43] spk_3:
thank you

[00:54:07.05] spk_0:
and thanks to all of you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22. Ntc the 2022 nonprofit technology conference with the hope that we will be together in person in 2023 in denver colorado. Thanks so much for being with us Next week. More from 22. NTCC asking for receiving and giving feedback if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great. Mhm mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for October 12, 2018: KPIs & Fundraging

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Anna Rhodes & Brenna Holmes: KPIs
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference (18NTC), shares its wisdom and insight on using key performance indicators to build consensus around goals and measures for your nonprofit. They’re Anna Rhodes and Brenna Holmes from Chapman, Cubine & Hussey.



Amy Sample Ward: Fundraging
Amy Sample WardIs your org positioned to accept help from supporters who are pissed off and want to channel their anger to something constructive, like raising money for you? Amy Sample Ward, our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN), explains what’s going on and how you can take advantage.



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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent under aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with gastro inter opto sis, if you brought me down with the idea that you missed today’s show kp eyes our panel from the non-profit technology conference eighteen ntc shares its wisdom and insight on using key performance indicators to build consensus around goals and measures for your non-profit they’re anna roads and brenda homes from chapman, cubine and husky and fund-raising is your organ positioned to accept help from supporters who are pissed off and wanna channel their anger to something constructive, like raising money for you ? Amy sample ward, our social media contributor and ceo of and ten non-profit technology network, explains what’s going on and how you can take advantage. Tony, take two thank you, responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing wetness e p a is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com bye tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony, tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine nine here are and erodes and brenna homes with k p iis. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference in new orleans. This interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use, dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. My guests are on a road and brenda homes. Anna is deputy director of analytics at chapman cubine and husky, and brenda holmes is vice president of digital at c c h ladies. Welcome. Thank you. Glad to have you both have you. Have you done your session already ? We did. We just just finished, finished all your coming off it, all right, it’s coming off the hyre exact. The bar is open now. Life is good. You’re topic was, but are we making progress, establishing and using kp eyes ? Okay, uh, maybe we’ll start with, make sure that everybody understands that a k p i is a what you stated in unison together, keep performance in the caner. We see that the voice okay, i think that’s pretty well understood, but let’s, just make sure, okay, why are these things so important ? Let’s start with anna because, er it is so hard to keep everyone within a non-profit hyre working towards the same goal instead of looking at all of their different measurement. Um, so having a way to agree on what success really looks like can actually end up making you be more successful in the end, because then you’re all working towards the same goals. Okay, so the part of this topic is organizational buy-in or we’ll not organic. Yes, whatever happens, you fire of you defined focus, a bunch of people, a bunch of people need to agree, so called that buy-in okay. And i also see another part of this is data overload. I mean there’s, just so much available, right. We need to focus on brenna on what’s what’s, the most important stuff. Exactly. Yeah, and the main thing, you have them clearing up the misnomer that not all kept metrics are kp eyes, right ? So everybody does have to agree. On what what are we trying to track ? Why are we tracking it ? How does that help us meet our strategic objectives and our end goals, right. So once you have the buy-in on all those goals, then you’re able to dig down deeper and develop. What are those specific metrics that will help us meet these kp eyes that we can then measure against those strategic objectives to ensure that we do have success and that we are tracking over time ? Okay, okay, very good, that’s, great, overviewing, thank you. Alright, so. Well, should we should we start with our so we started our organizational goals. Yes, because that’s what ? We’re measuring against that, you’re just saying that. So now we got to get okay. So this all obviously should flow from our mission. I’m gonna go back to that. That that that fourteen year old voice, that really reason that we exist our mission statement. Okay, from that, we have gold now. Now. Okay, i’m gonna assume that everybody buys into the mission. Otherwise they wouldn’t be working there. Hopefully. But now now way. Get to the goal stage people could start falling out. That’s where the disagree it’s not too far from mission to gold, but we could start losing people. What do we do ? Go ahead, runner. Yeah, i’m gonna start so we we like to focus it on the building. Kind of smart goals, right ? So what do we need to do ? Departmental e department by department to help us achieve our mission on dh. Really phoning it in tow ? Really ? No. More than two. Three. And i went up to five in our session. I was like, oh, but, you know, two, three things that we all can agree on as a group that these are priorities. These are important goals. And, yes, there’s. Other things that are important. But if we let ourselves go down the rabbit hole of just saying, listing everything that’s important now, things no longer important, which is what you’re starting with you yours, referring to earlier with the data overload and it’s, especially. Eazy, because digital metrics can be so different than offline metric to instead have the i’m actually moving it away a little bit, okay, okay don’t worry, it can actually be easy. Tohave the metric create new divisions within just the development department divisions that didn’t even exist before, but it’s sustainers causing problems in solving so a cz longest. You’re looking at twenty things in google analytics and through the facebook manager over here, and then a completely different set of metrics for direct male you’re not even working towards the same goals within the development department. So that’s part of why so important to start at the goal side of things rather than at the measurement side of things, so that the measurements always air serving the goals supporting those goals, right ? Okay, i imagine we need top down by this has got to come from leadership. That’s the goal agreement we still go agreement it’s got to be driven from above and and accepted. Yes, it doesn’t necessarily have to be driven from above but don’t really actually, i was you know, as i was saying, i think it could be bottom up it can be, but but but the leadership has to be on a great okay. Okay, for sure. All right. Uh, all right. So we agree on our goals. Now, now we’re moving to our kp eyes. How are we going to how do we know what that’s measurable belongs at the top within within these goals ? Yeah, that we’ve all agreed on. Well, and even before you get teo, what are the kp eyes ? We need to develop strategic objectives for each goal, okay ? Because the girls tend to be a little bit umbrella there. Vega. Right way. Operation. Exactly like we use greenpeace. One of our clients in our session today partnered with us, and one of their goals is defending democracy. Okay, well, that’s big right and an existential and long and yeah, eso then we developed strategic objectives that will help them measure against whether or not they’re being successful in duvette defending democracy it’s time for a break pursuant there. E book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and practices to your non-profit it’s free as you’re accustomed to all the pursuant resources. Are and it’s on the listener landing page ? No surprise, tony dahna may slash pursuing capital p for please and pursuing i guess now back to kp eyes from the non-profit technology conference. So what are you ? What are some of them that they chose so way ? Work through those greenpeace ? How come that on right now is accident or not at this table ? Alright, now they’re long sorry, it’s not proper radio your life. I know, i know, but we worked through them from the department perspective. So what would it mean for the fund-raising department to be supporting the organization goal of defend democracy ? So it is easy for fundraisers to think that their job is always the same. It is always just raise money, raise lots of money and then we’re done. But there actually is more nuanced than that if we’re trying to defend democracy. Well, sadly, that isn’t something that we’re just doing today or for the next month. That’s actually a long term project and certainly at least through the trump presidency. And and, you know, given how greenpeace defines this goal of actually reducing the amount of money in politics, i mean that’s going to take sometime. So that means whatever funding that fund-raising is supplying has to be sustainable and it’s the net that matters, not just the growth tomorrow. Okay, so that means now we’ve clarified the objective in the fund-raising department. So that’s, the next stage come up with the mission statement for the organization ? We’ve turned that into a number of goals for the organization, the big dream things defend democracy, stop global warming, all of these huge concepts and then we’ve broken them down for how does my department contribute to that ? And on lee, once you’ve done that, can you decide ? What am i going to measure what’s actually being, what do i need to measure ? Ok, right. So the object’s strategic objective is growth in sustainable net revenue. We’ll both sustainable and net are two measurable things. So then you can build your kp eyes off of those keywords on dh actually, decide on what are the metrics that we have to check ? How do we agree on collecting that data so that everything has a flat, measured baseline that we can then benchmark ourselves against what periodically so that we’re checking in on that growth ? Side of the goal and when we’re at this stage, is this just our department ? That’s that’s really making these decisions ? Okay, so we’re not we’re not at the higher levels anymore. It’s not necessary, correct is where the department level, but we’re going to build back-up so we’ve gone down to the department level to figure out that’s, so i mean, you’re using your expertise, so you want your fundraisers figuring out how fund-raising can best support the fund-raising goal, right ? You don’t i don’t want a cfo deciding that, but in the end, the cfo has two buy-in on it, all of leadership does have two buy-in so once the various organizations have figure out out their objectives and their kp eyes, then you have to come back up a level and talk across departments and see how these objective support each other and possibly adjust them is where we ended up with our greenpeace example is actually making slight objectives when the marketing department and the fund-raising department saw the amount of overlap between their objectives and the tactics in specific that they were planning in order to get there, so that sounds like an ah ha! Moment, way. Have a lot more in common than we realized. A cross marketing and fund-raising. Exactly. Yeah, okay, okay. Okay, dahna, but let me ask you where should we go next with this ? Where do we go next with discussion ? You talk good. Well, i was just gonna say i think, you know, we used marketing and fund-raising as the example here because obviously, the ntc audiences, a lot of marketers and fundraisers, but the same structure and the same necessity for kp eyes it’s in all departments, right ? Whether it’s, your program, people who are actually implementing the services or whether it’s your public relations or media relations outreach people like all of these departments have to go through the same process on. And i think there will be a lot of those. Ah ha. Moments for organizations who are used to working in silos when they start thinking about the goals. Right ? Actually being achievable of strategic objectives that can be measured to get back against the mission on dh over there. Okay, uh, what about digital digital fund-raising kp eyes ? You talked some about that ? Yeah. Okay, let’s. Shut out. You want to start anna s. So there are a lot of questions about digital fund-raising kp eyes because people immediately go to the measurements available. In google analytics, and which one of these should i use as if the answer is the same for everyone ? So this just, you know, as if conversion rate on your petitions should be asserted number for every single organization and that’s what defines success ? Because we can show you how to set that up in google analytics, so that came up in our session, and it was a another reminder to folks to go back to the beginning, decide on your goals. Yeah, i think i feel like a lot of ways it’s, like the ultimate consultant answer is it depends right ? Because everything is it is individualized. If you’re not taking the time to audit yourselves and personalize and get that organizational buy-in and that organizational priority list, then they don’t really matter than they aren’t kp eyes, they’re just metrics, whether they’re showing growth or loss or what they’re just vanity numbers at that point because they have no tie to the strategic objectives in the mission of the organization. We had one question in the session, which was great, and it was about supporter scoring and i think that’s mental really hot topic in the digital. Space border scoring ? Yeah, i don’t know what that is. Okay, so when the ads taking basically qualitative, um, pieces of information, whether that behavioral traits or demographic things on dh scoring it, putting a quantitative wait to that to then build a model to show you these are my best people, my top ten deaths ill or my latto bottom ten on dh, then also using it to find lookalike audiences and things like that out in the world. So you want you’re doing this for different constituencies like donors, volunteers, exactly, event attendees, service beneficiaries, okay, different constituencies. And the problem is exactly the same problem that folks have with models in the direct marketing space is that for non-technical users, they hear model, and they’re like, oh, it obviously adjust to my program. It’s must have something to do with artificial intelligence. I hear all these things are great, these people are scored at the top, therefore they’re the best for me, and then they’re surprised when the results don’t match that. But any model has to be based on what your actual goals are, so if you’re using a response rate, a response based model and your goal is actually to increase high dollar donors. That model is not going to serve you. The people with the top score in that model are not necessarily going to be the high dollar donors. And so it was the same thing with the supporter scoring thie. It was a very good question, but it again starts from the data side of things rather than the gold side of things. We have all of this data. We have thes scores saying these supporters are our best ones. We should contact them every chance that we get our screening. Fill those right back. Yes, when i think a lot of it stemmed for for that, for a lot of people in for him in particular, asking the question that like which which one should i buy ? Right which model is best ? Which scoring which software should i purchase that you actually have to do the internal look looking in to find out what’s important to you before you decide what direction on demand that of the vendors ? Because it’s true, that all of these models can be adjusted when you are able to communicate what is actually valuable to your organization. Otherwise, you’re going to screen it. You mean screening ? Yeah. Yeah. That’s not commonly known. Now, i think i think most most orders say they just take the algorithms. Yeah, they’re provided the show. Andi. Everybody gets the same. Same right ? Yeah. Yeah, that that’s not leveraging that to its utmost. Yeah. That’s. A very good that’s. A very important point. I think people are just taking it and they figure well, there there’s a half a dozen vendors. So there are each have different a proprietary algorithm way. Have to pick one, right ? Not so. And not so you can. You can negotiate. Oh, yeah. I got a chorus thing just like the k p i s started you off area that’s. Two songs together. Ask for what you need and it doesn’t matter what how big the screening of doesn’t matter whether martin lundy or blackbaud or know it it is it is going to affect of the pricing, but asking the question it does not affect the pricing. So always asked the question of these air the things that are important to us. What would that mean for the price that you would offer on the model that you built that incorporates these things that are important to us. So find that out from a few different vendors when i was a good partner vendor is going to ask those questions of you the best ones will write they don’t know because they do try and have everybody tries to have an off the shelf product that’s going to be successful for the majority of users, but really the ones that are caring about donor-centric communication and really carrying about long term relationships with the non-profit that they partner with should be asking those questions because it is about building that custom model based on the weights and measures that are important to each of the organization and each individual program or department in the organization. Okay, in my experience, that’s it’s not surely aspirations on night. I’m an optimist. Yeah, there’s optimism and then there’s today i think you know that saying, you know, you know, but i just haven’t experienced it. I know i’m working planned e-giving fund-raising so i’m not, you know, i don’t have all the conversations with potential screening vendors, but i just have never heard this that you can negotiate. On tweaking tweaking of the yeah, i’ve never heard that i’ve always you know, i say whether it’s your own professional development like negotiating raises or what but if you don’t ask, you get everything is negotiable. Everything’s negotiable think lorts in london was negotiable. And speaking of an analyst there’s nothing that i like better than being told exactly what your goals are so that i can build something that it’s really going to be successful, right ? Yeah, that’s the battle them to anna and say, show me these numbers, right ? I come to and i say, i’m trying to figure out this about this co owners this i’m trying to figure out the answer to this question, and then she comes back to me with the metrics that solve for x better than actually just telling me ac okay, yeah, well, we still have ah, good number of minutes together left. What ? What else ? Maybe other questions that got asked or other things that came out of your that were in your session that we haven’t talked about yet ? What else is there ? Well, one question that i got wass what software solves this ? I’m paraphrasing, but basically it was what what do i buy that will make this ? Um but thiss kp i process ? Yeah, are there ? Are there tech solutions way ? Haven’t talked about that at all ? No, i don’t think everybody just wants that easy answer, right ? Nobody likes introspection, and there are tons and tons of software programs that can display your kp eyes, so if you’re looking for a data visualization, a solution that board a dashboard product there’s tons and tons of thumb out there and what i told this person was that if your issue is that you don’t have the staff, teo, learn new software and you don’t have the budget to buy something that isn’t going to solve all of your problems. Then don’t buy anything, put your kp ice and excel, but, um, in a word, doc, if you have and it really is the process and the conversations and having thie organization wide agreement that makes this powerful not you know all, i’ll create some great visualization for you, but i can create plenty of great visualizations using meaningless data. Some some some of this discussion reminds me of ah, strategic planning discussion still mean you’re getting organizational buy-in we’re all agreeing on common goals and the measures toward those goals. I mean, those goals inform the future direction of the of the organization. So there’s overlap between this and a strategic planning process. Yeah ? Oh, definitely. Yeah, and that was a big part of it. The draw. When ana came up with the session idea, i thought it would be she roped you in ? Well, no, i basically solicited her. But then she came up with the idea because ntcdinosaur like solo. So i mean, i don’t know, but i’m the one that speaks of these things all the time. And i was like, anna, your turn. But it was her idea. The session was great and i just fell in love with it because it’s not just about numbers, right and that’s what people think that’s always important question. Exactly agreement. It really is about the change. Even change management, strategic planning like all of you respect exactly. And that’s, i think is. So is it lost on a lot of people, especially at non-profits ? Where everybody’s wearing ? A lot of hats, everybody is doing multiple jobs and just trying to get the next thing done on the list that this really forces you. If you want to do a right to take a step back and think about how your day to day activities impact the mission, impact the strategic objectives and on go from there and i think that’s, i think that’s really refreshing for people to do just in general, whether you’re developing kp eyes or not, because it does make you think about why we do what we dio and people who work in non-profits as well as those who partner like us, who partner with them, we do this because we love right now work the outcomes of the mission that zit and we all get so tied up in the weeds of the day today that we forget about the mission and how amazing the organizations that we work with. Our and people have a very hard time because they’re wearing a million hats, hats, and they have way too much on their plate. They just need to get that next e mail out so that they have a very hard time. Deciding okay, today i’m going to stop and actually go through this k p i building process, but i would urged people to try it because, uh, wait, we have a couple minutes left, and i think we talked a lot about motivation. Hyre logistically, how do you take this on you ? We meet once a week, tio i mean, he’s, a big topic you can’t you can’t do this in a in a week now, but you meet once a week, over months or a couple days over every other. How did you do this ? Logistically, i would suggest tacking it onto the front of your annual budgeting process, so work back off from when you’re budgets are due to the board, and then when their due to your department lead and due to leadership, and then give yourself a minimum of a month, but ideally two months so it’s, like not unusual for to be a six month process from the time of the department objective and kp i development to the time that the budget is actually finalized and signed off on by the board. Okay, excellent, helpful and that forces you to revisit on at least. On an annual basis, right, because you’re reevaluating before that next expenditure budget is good into place annually now, okay, okay, yeah, we have, like a minute and a half left. I wantto make sure this fits just right. So where ? Who wants to leave ? Leave us with closing thoughts. You know what else to say ? Okay. I wish i had something easy. Tio. You’ve seen this working clients, right using transformation and clients in the process can work. Yeah, stamina. Devote your vote attention to it. And i have seen it make those data day tasks easier, because then you have fewer interruptions from other departments or from leadership trying to push you in a million different directions. Dahna. Okay, it’s. A really good point. That’s. A good place. Alright. Thank you. Thank you. Love are well done. Wonderful. Okay, thanks. They are on a road. Deputy director of analytics chapman, cubine and husi. And also brenholz vice president of digital at c c h. The interview is sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you so much for being with tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. Do you need help with accounting or your nine ninety ? Are you thinking about a change of accountants in this ? Ah, next in the next cycle for yourself. Check out weinger cpas. Dot com. You start your due diligence there, of course. And then talk to them. The partner ? Yeah. Huge tomb. You know, he’s been on the show. He’s a good guy. I trust him weinger cpas dot com the place to start now. Time for tony steak too. Do i say thank you too often ? If i do, please let me know, but i’m saying it now. I am grateful that we have the support we have now over thirteen thousand listeners, whether you are listening, live podcast or affiliate thank you if you’re following along on twitter. If you’ve, uh you’re following what we call it on youtube is just following subscribing if you subscribed on youtube twitter, youtube i thank you facebook, facebook, facebook fans! It doesn’t mean much anymore. It seems to have very much faded into sort of triviality. I remember the days we used to say like us on facebook. Facebook dot com slash twenty monday now provoc radio those were the dark days, but i’m grateful that’s it. Thank you. However you’re with us. Thank you very much. It’s. My pleasure to welcome back amy sample ward. You know her for god’s sake, she’s, our social media contributor in the ceo of and ten the non-profit technology network where we just heard a segment from for the last conference her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s that amy sample war dot or ge and at amy rs ward welcome back, amy simple word hi. Thank you for having me back. It’s always a pleasure. I am. I’m always waiting for the day when i just stopped getting invitations. Yeah, it’ll happen that way too. I won’t officially tell you. I’ll just stop course. Just slowly stop scheduling me and i will know it. It’s over. Yeah, i won’t even be slow. It’ll be abrupt. It’ll just have the thing. And then six months later, you’ll think about well, hopefully is not that long. Couple months later think packed. Jeez, tony hasn’t been in touch with me for, well, that’s the way it’ll happen. Um, okay, so we’re talking about fund-raising fund-raising underage. What ? Yeah. What ? Uh, put this on your radar. Well, you know, i don’t think it’s necessarily new. I think it is. Has old as the world of fund-raising, you know, centuries and centuries old. But it has been something that here and in ten. As as staff, we’ve been talking about a lot, especially in the last two year political climate on dh it’s the way that i would define thunder aging is you can think of it a bit a bit like peer-to-peer where it’s individuals it’s not necessarily on organization or staff members, people out in the community fund-raising and it’s, the fund-raising that happens or the campaigns that happen in response to things in the news, you folks in a specific geographic community care that something is being proposed or moving forward ? That’s going tio threatened a way that they live their life or the way that the organizations they support are able to do their work, and in response to that kind of anger, that rage, they want to feel like they’re doing something, and it doesn’t feel like there’s really anything that’s in their power to do in-kind of that complex world we live in of policymakers and government officials and all the way down to us citizens. And so they start a fund raising campaign to benefit those organizations that they support that they see as the ones who are in a position to try and make a change or support people experiencing whatever situation is happening. So it’s really driven by individuals reacting to the news, you know, whatever that news, maybe not saying that this is something that only happens in one kind of view or political party, but as as a country, i think we see these examples of fund-raising jane becoming more and more visible, bigger impact on dh more, yeah, so not new, but certainly amped up under thinks the twenty sixteen election and since donald trump is president certainly amped up on really throughout the country, but, you know, i even has they say both sides because i’m trying to get away from us being a polarized nation, but across all across all political spectrums amped up yeah, okay, okay, yeah, you know, there’s a there’s, a there’s, a sense that, right ? You know, it it comes from a sense of sort of incapacity, you know ? Yeah, i think it really is that powerlessness that i think a lot of communities feel where, where the ability to make policy or protect existing policy or change processes doesn’t feel like something they are ever a part of, and yet they’re impacted by the results of those changes and that powerlessness, i think, is part of that rage, right ? How could this happen ? But also, how could this happen and not include me when i am a person that is a part of this, and so a kind of counterbalance that there’s this feeling of ? Well, if there’s on top of us, you know that all donate five players surely will be able to pull those funds, you know, into this organization or into this movement that can’t help that a lot of this i think, comes from or is is related to what you and i talked about in august over marketing, you know, if if there’s if there’s an over marketing problem in the non-profit community, if we’re constantly at eleven on a scale of zero to ten, then you know where, where were guilty of amping up the amping up the rhetoric, right on dh, the passions and the anger and the outrage for sure, and, you know, we don’t have to go down that path, but i think fund-raising when done successfully and by successfully to meet a part of that means in conjunction with an existing organisation and you know kind of ah request or past that makes sense for them to move forward with when that happens. It’s, because organizations are not over marketing, right ? They are very clear there, very consistent. They are providing information that helped synthesize the news, the changes, the policies, whatever it is and demonstrates really clearly that they are part of the fight or the solution or the alternative path. And that way it’s clear for supporters again. You know, these aren’t necessarily campaigns driven by the organization’s. These air campaigns driven by community members who just are so fed up they want to do something. And so when organizations can be very clear and communication be very consistent about the the things they respond to in the news or the issues that they are going to speak about, it positions community members to know oh, my gosh, i’m so upset. You know, i heard this thing on the news, but i know this organization i support, i trust them. I know exactly what they do. I know exactly how they’re part of a solution that i want to see. I feel comfortable and confident starting to fund raise for them because i know where they stand, i know what they do, and i’m able to even borrow that language, you know, for my facebook poster for my, you know, fund-raising page and in a home run by the organization, they’ve given me the tools and resources to help me create a campaign, you know ? So exactly we’ll get to that because, you know, you want to have ideally you want to have these things in place so that the community is empowered. Exactly, yeah, do you because you want to benefit from this, you know, if your community is upset, there’s there’s a potential benefit for you if you’re working in that space ? Exactly. Do you have a sense of what ? What helps make thes campaigns more successful ? O or not ? Yeah, i mean, i think that like anything there’s going to be those examples that are true out liars on dh, you know, feel like magical unicorn rainbow fundraisers that happened, and we’re not necessarily trying to replicate those, but the things that you can do is an organization beyond what we were just talking about being really clear and consistent on the issues that you talk about, that you respond to in the news demonstrating and communicated kating, how you address those things do all of that, but also i think if you think about this as a peer-to-peer campaign that you’re just not launching, you want to go through some of the same steps, you want to make sure that as an organization you can take donations electronically, that you, you know, have that kind of donation button set up on your website, but also that your, you know, maybe registered on various other peer-to-peer donation platforms so that if people wanted to create a campaign for you, you’re in the system and they can, you know, attach to your profile and have the funds go to u s o that’s one kind of administrative step to take and then on a planning communication side of things, you want to make sure that you’ve done again some of those same peer-to-peer best practices, you’ve got some tool kits that are really easy to find on your website, really easy to follow that say, if you’re going fund-raising for and then you know, whatever your organisation’s name is, here are the things that we know are successful here’s what ? Our logo file is that people aren’t just making a version of your logo that’s not right here’s, you know our mission statement here’s what we’re doing on these kind of top five issues, whatever you think may end up being the things that kind of rage people into fund-raising for you, so you already have sametz tab lish talking points out there, so put some of those tool kits together on dh. I also think that it’s important to keep in that you know it doesn’t have to be a pdf. It could be a page on your website that is, quote unquote the tool kit. It could be a google dog, it could be whatever, but make sure it’s up to date and you’re including things that are even even for people who want to want to fund rage but don’t want to create a whole page for you somewhere or don’t want it to be a long term thing, but they’re kind of really easy to copy paste messages that point back to your donation form so even if they don’t have the capacity or or maybe skills and knowledge to set up a fundraising page for you, they could copy paste that facebook comment that says, you know, i support and ten this is what they’re doing on this issue here’s the donate link so that you can even get those folks, or maybe it’s the lighter end of the spectrum. We gotta take a break tell us you’ve heard from charities that referred companies for credit card processing, and they’re getting the revenue each month you’ve heard from the companies using tello’s for their credit card processing now can use more revenue that long stream of passive revenue that comes from the fees that tello’s urns from the companies you refer. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to amy sample ward. You ticked off a whole bunch of things there, andi, you didn’t have to go, but you were concise, you know, like you’re reading the outline for your next book for this chapter, fund-raising because, you know, i think that it’s important to keep in mind as like an idea about all of this is that this may be different from how organizations may think about other fund-raising campaign is that often really successful ? Fund-raising campaigns community led fund-raising campaigns the organization’s air in the background, but that doesn’t mean the organizations were not actively a part of that campaign being successful, so you don’t have to be the star because you’re going to be the start that’s all the talking points or about how you are going to do this change and that’s why people air are fund-raising you don’t need to be the voice that’s saying all of that so don’t feel like once somebody starts, you’re goingto kind of publicly jump on that and and you’re helping them by being really public about it. That’s actually, what you can do to help them is to be in the background reach out to them, send them an email if you know who they are, you know, send them a phone call and say, what do you need ? Do you need more messages ? We have staff to do that, you know, do you need images ? We can give you some images, help them and give them the fuel to make their campaign strong and don’t feel like you need to step out in front of it. I mean, you want to provide the infrastructure and an ongoing support, but but i think we actually counterproductive if you stepped in and started dahna messaging within their peer-to-peer campaigns, right o for sure we’re going the merciful st makes people feel like, do you even really care about this ? Are you just doing itcause ? This organization had you right ? I’m injecting, it loses that, yeah, you lose the first piela the pier is now the non-profit non-profit to the person’s peers who are not their peers, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s too long a string to abbreviate you can no longer abbreviated ptp. So exactly and i think what’s important to remember to is that the path you think might be most obvious or even easiest may not be the past for them and that’s ok, if they want to really focus on email because that’s who they are and they, you know, send lots of e mails every day and that’s where they know people will open their e mail and read it don’t tell them they need to be tweeting, you know, don’t tell them they need to post on facebook whatever channel somebody’s most comfortable with let them go through that channel. And say, you know, instead of giving you really easy to use tweets, we will write, you know, paragraph chunks for you to use that are compelling that have links to resource is whatever it is that’s going to help them in their outreach on dh you just have to be flexible tete that. Yeah, again, it’s you know, it’s it’s offering support. I mean, the first p knows where the second piece all right, where they hang out. You know, they know my friends. I know my peers put it in the pdp what’s a good word. I was structure, but lexicon samson in the lexicon, you know ? So i know where my penis will like these hangout, so don’t don’t tell me what i gotta do. Of course not. You’re interfering and yeah, yeah, no, i’m great. Yeah, but peace that’s interesting. And i would love to put you on the spot in here. Your thoughts to tony is is the way that these kinds of campaigns justice we’re talking about really centering the people who are fund-raising and not the organisation. How that means they are different in the way that you recognize those donors and supporters. The way that you recognize the work of that campaign on the way that you take credit for those funds, i think there’s a lot of nuance in that give in the way that these campaigns often start the reasoned that people give to them versus give teo you as an organization. Right ? I think it’s important to remember people are giving to that campaign to that rage and not necessarily to you as an organization, even though they are giving he was an organization, right ? So how does that, you know, maybe require, as an organization, you have different practices for the way you recognize and think those donors and those supporters that maybe you do when you run other campaigns yourself ? Yeah, i don’t take well to being asked questions on my own show on your own. Show it sze tony martignetti non-profit radio way. You just made my voice crack. I’m so upset. I know i would say you i would say you need to defer to the to the first p the person who ran the campaign for you, i guess first. Are they willing to share contact info toe let you directly. Thank the donors. To the campaign, maybe one. That all depends. Where did those donations go ? Over there, where the donations happening on a platform where, you know the contact information with saves captured, renamed not you know, i think there’s a lot of kind of technical russians in there too. Okay ? But even if i did capture it on my e-giving form online, i still would ask the the person that person’s permission because they know their peers better, you know, then, you know, how would you feel ? Would you mind if we, uh, could we thank them ? Wei have the info, but we’re not going to use it unless you, you know, let us say something or could re send a message from you to them and, you know, maybe the two of us, right, send a combined thank you message. Maybe our ceo signs it and you sign it, you know ? So what i want that’s a really great idea for for some instances, because you’re then maintaining the same relationship you had during the campaign where your job is an organization was to give them what they needed. And now you’re reinforcing their leadership in the community by saying we’re going toe thank you. And if you would like to, you can pass on our message of things to your, you know, to the donors, but you’re kind of still putting them in the position as the leader instead of the organization. Yeah, yeah, they’re they’re in the lead. I mean, there, there. Yes. It’s there it’s there community that they were fund-raising from so, um, yeah, you wantto elevate them ? Absolutely, uh, that’s, my son and i think it’s also important. I mean, when we think about this, any kind of fund-raising campaign as list building and what that means for future cultivation, whether more donations, bigger donations or other actions, you know, kind of other ladders of engagement. I think there are a lot of instances in fund-raising jean situations where the people who feel kind of fired-up and are supporting that effort are doing it in the way that’s not visible to the organization, at least from a like database perspective, you know, they’re not signing up on the organization’s website. They’re not donating to the organization through a donation form that the organization has access to, so they’re not coming on to the list, but these are people who are fired-up and finding ways against through those leaders who are kind of calling their community action, too continue giving them more news, continue giving them updates even after the maybe donation phase of it is over, but not lose contact with those people and continue to go back to them to say, hey, you know, we got a million dollars, which is not unheard of in some recent examples of fund-raising, you know, we got a million dollars in a week it’s been a month here, the eighteen long years that we’ve hired, we just wanted to let you know, you know, or here’s work that’s happening because of this so that they continue to be in a place where there almost spokespeople for for that action now, and they are saying, hey, i just got this word from the organization, this has been the impact of what we did, and, you know, they get to be the ones sharing that news because you don’t have a way to connect with other people, so at least make sure you don’t lose contact with those that you d’oh, we got to take a ah last break. Text to give, you’ll get more revenue because they make e-giving easy for your donors. If your donor’s consent a text, they could make a donation. We’re talking about that right now, it’s, part of your infrastructure, it’s simple, affordable, secure plus the ceo chadband oid very smart guy he spent set up a smart company um, it’s easy to get the info text npr for non-profit radio to four, four four nine nine nine npr to four, four, four, nine nine nine we’ve got several more minutes for fund-raising well, i’m very glad of within the sample ward would it was one thing i wanted to bring up is a question that has been brought up here at staff when we’re having conversations about this world of fund-raising jane and that is that you can’t anticipate when it’s gonna happen because of the news of the death everyday tension between, you know, you don’t really know what’s gonna happen in the world every day in advance. And what does that mean, given that it’s september right now, when people are probably have already done or at least starting to do now their end of year campaign planning ? So what ? Does it mean if you were, you know, done months of planning all this work ? You’ve launched your end of your campaign ? It’s ? You know, november, december, you’re running this end of your campaign. Something happens in the news. It’s that moment, you know, it’s okay, at least in my opinion, open tio what you may think, tony, but, you know, it’s okay to me, if that means your end of your campaign comes in way under goal and you stop tweeting about it because it may be more important to focus on this other angle where your community is fired-up in a different way, then continuing to almost compete with your community’s interests on, and i think that can be hard in the moment to say, oh, my gosh, we did all this work. We have all these goals and expectations are bored, you know, wants to do x y and z, and now we’re not gonna send this, you know, email out or something, but depending on, of course, you’re going to have to gauge what the community’s responses and all of that. But it may mean that you do let go of that end of your campaign. And that has to be okay. Maybe there’s a way to combine the two so that you know, so yeah. I mean, i definitely think it matters what the universe is, what the community is trying to campaign around. I think you could definitely, especially for your organization willing to do it. I have it in real time and make that end of your campaign talking points aligned with the communities, talking points, you know, if it’s not a huge departure from what you needed, what you needed to say anyway, that’s yeah, i agree. I mean, i would i would try toe message it so that you can you can take advantage of the the outrage. And and as you’re saying, you know, message it into your end of year, you know, it’s that it’s a tough one, because, i mean, i know a lot of listeners have small organizations with, like, one, two, three, staff people and, you know, end of year is like, you know, way may not make payroll if if we don’t do a certain amount in the in the fourth quarter or a lot, a lot of times, you know, like the month of december um, so it’s it’s hard, you know, you gotta yeah, i don’t think that you know, on the first tweet from a community member, you know, manage, stan, you’re not doing now, you’re doing it lightly, but i’m just, you know, i’m trying to balance the i’m trying to balance, you know, what’s not competing with your community, what your communities anger is and what they’re talking about. Versace, versace, you’re own your own messaging for the biggest campaign of your year. Um, i’m trying out for a lot of organizations that have a diverse fund-raising kind of palate with maybe online fund-raising and end of your fund-raising and major gift that it is just filters into maybe how you balance or prioritize amongst that grid, like maybe you say, okay, well, our online fund-raising focus will be supporting these community members who are tryingto lead some campaigns and, you know, are offline is just going to focus on our major donors, and they it might be an opportunity that they feel more compelled because now they see other people, you know, are coming coming to support the same organization that may be a lower financial level, but it still means something, so i think it’s really, about how it plays into the mix. Dahna yeah, yeah, i agree. I’m just considering the balance on a zai know how critical certain campaigns, whether it’s fourth quarter or not, you can be teo teo, people in to those organizations that are small, like i said, you know, one, two, three before employees, you know, i worry about making payroll and making, making rent payments that can that can keep you up at night, you know, you know, um, okay, we still got a couple minutes left. About two minutes or so left before we let you go. What else ? What else should we be talking about for two minutes ? Well, you know, i would be curious outside of on ly fund raging the ways that organizations are also using the news for, i don’t know howto turn raging into the end of other words, but, you know, these air really important moments for organizations for what we were talking about before, with this building and ad ad advil raging, i really committed to making raging part of the word, but, you know, finding ways where probably a little bit more on the fly, which is always hard for organizations, whether they’re bigger, small but finding ways to say, ok, this thing was said, here’s, how we feel about it, you know, do you stand with us something that doesn’t have to have any material outcome from it ? You’re now not, you know, producing an event or launching a program because you’ve said something but ways to get your community feeling like oppcoll they are with you, they know where you stand, you are getting that information back from them to be able to maybe segment your list really dynamically to say, wow, all of these people responded to this news item this day and, you know, these people didn’t that’s another wayto plan for cultivation later. So i think even if your community isn’t necessarily starting fund-raising campaigns for you or you’re not starting fund-raising campaigns in response to the news, you can still be using things that happen, whether they’re local or regional, are at a federal level, help you get more information about who your supporters are, what they care about, how they, how they came to sign up for you so that you can again better reach out to them. But think about your list before you start sending out fund-raising messages later. Yeah, it’s, not it’s, not all about fund-raising wait, we’re gonna leave it there and you say the word you’ll find her at amy rs ward and just follow her for god’s sake. You see all this wisdom ? Get it on twitter at amy or it’s war and also amy sample word dot org’s. Thank you so much, amy. Thanks, tony, my publisher. Next week, jean takagi returns with his take on donor advised funds if you missed any part. Of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p when you see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream, tony dahna slash tony tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr too for for for nine, nine, nine. Our creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. 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