Tag Archives: equity

Nonprofit Radio for September 19, 2022: The Tech That Comes Next

 

Amy Sample Ward & Afua Bruce: The Tech That Comes Next

Social impact orgs, technology developers, funders, communities and policy makers can all do better at technology development, argue Amy Sample Ward and Afua Bruce in their new book, “The Tech That Comes Next.”

 

 

 

 

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[00:02:21.94] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of pseudo ag raffia if I had to write the words you missed this week’s show the tech that comes next social impact orgs, technology developers, funders, communities and policymakers can all do better at technology development for greater equity, argue Amy sample Ward and Bruce in their new book, The tech that comes next tony take two heading to the Holy Land. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D Just like 3D but they go one dimension deeper. It’s my pleasure to welcome Amy sample Ward returning she’s the ceo of N 10 and our technology and social media contributor there at AMY sample ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward and to welcome Bruce. She is a leading public interest technologist who has spent her career working at the intersection of technology policy and society. She’s held senior science and technology positions at data kind, the White House, the FBI and IBM She’s at a few a underscore Bruce who is a F. U. A. Together they’ve co authored the book the tech that comes next how change makers, philanthropists and technologists can build an equitable world. Their book is at the tech that comes next dot com. Amy welcome to nonprofit radio Thanks

[00:02:26.04] spk_1:
for having us.

[00:02:27.35] spk_2:
I’m glad to

[00:02:28.07] spk_1:
hear what you

[00:02:29.25] spk_0:
think both of you for the first time. Very nice to meet you. Glad to have you.

[00:02:34.51] spk_2:
I’m so excited to be here.

[00:02:53.06] spk_0:
Thank you, excited. That’s terrific. You may be more excited than I am. I don’t know, but I know I’m very excited. I’m very pleased. I already said I was pleased, excited. Is excited is even better than pleased. Thank you. Uh let’s start with you since people know AMY sample ward voice. Um I feel like we should start with a definition of technology the way you to see it.

[00:03:45.79] spk_2:
Absolutely technology can mean many things to many different people and even when people just simply hear the word of technology here, the word technology contra and hope of the future and assistive devices that may transform our world, but it can also bring up feelings of in trepidation and confusion and so in the book, when we talk about technology, we define it very broadly as to what our tools that exist to help us really exist in the world. Um and so this can be anything from digital systems and websites and like AI for example, but it’s also more basic things such as you know, pay deeper or other tools that are just used. And so we define it extremely broadly in the book. The focus of the book does focus on digital technologies though and really looking at adoption and use and development of digital technologies especially as it relates to the social impact sector

[00:04:07.28] spk_0:
and what what troubles you about our relationship to technology?

[00:04:36.38] spk_2:
Um, well I am an engineer, a computer engineer specifically. And so I love technology. I love being in technology. I love doing all sorts of things with technology. I love designing new ways to use technology and figuring out how to design technology to support new ways of interact that we have. I think one of the things that

[00:04:41.22] spk_1:
does

[00:05:34.13] spk_2:
give me pause though is how some see technology or some try to position technology as the be all and end all the magic solution that we could have to solve all of our problems. And that if we simply find the right technology, if we simply insert technology into any societal problem that we’re facing, that that technology will magically fix whatever we have been facing. And that’s simply not true technology not a natural phenomenon. It is something that we could create. It’s something that we should be intentionally creating to minimize bias to make sure that technology is developed and used in inclusive ways and really does enhance what we want to do as humans, which is hopefully live well together in community. Um and not just be used as some big tool to force uh different, often um different, often disproportionately impacting outcomes

[00:05:45.54] spk_0:
and you have a lot to say about development specifically more more equitable development.

[00:07:43.75] spk_2:
Yes, absolutely. Um I think equitable development of technology is something that can and should be continuing to grow. I think historically, especially when we look at the past several decades of the rise of digital technologies and technology more broadly the um the power, the money, the education has been concentrated in one group and a lot of other groups, it includes a lot of historically underrepresented or overlooked communities um based on ethnicity, based on gender identity, based on sexuality, based on ability, physical ability, mental ability or more um have really been left out or forgotten about. And so when we talk about a more inclusive design process and more inclusive development process for technology, we’re talking about one being more inclusive to who is actually allowed in the room when we talk about technology design. So who do we see as capable of being technologist um and who have who has those abilities to engage that way, but also recognizing that because technology does not exist alone, but because technology doesn’t exist in a vacuum, because technology can’t magically solve all of our problems on our own. Even if you’re not a technologist, you should be at the table in some of these design conversations because you are part of communities that have needs and those needs should be articulated at the start of the design process. You might understand a particular subject matter. I think in the book we talk about using technology in the education space, in the food space in other spaces as well, you may have some of that knowledge that is critical to making sure that the technology supports the overall goals of those sectors. And so it is important that as we think about being inclusive in developing technology, we make space for not just different types of people who are able to be technologists, but also different types of expertise that we need in that developed process.

[00:08:09.00] spk_0:
So you’re not so pleased with the model where rich, privileged white males develop technology develop, identify what’s going to be solved and how best to solve it. I I assume that that model is not working for you.

[00:08:27.26] spk_2:
I would say I would go even further than

[00:08:30.25] spk_0:
going out and

[00:08:30.92] spk_2:
it’s not working for most of us. Um so it is not working for most of us to have the power concentrated in that

[00:08:52.64] spk_0:
way. Okay. And in fact, uh someone see, I don’t know who wrote which sentences, but somebody wrote. We can’t continue to perpetuate the belief that those with the most money know best. I don’t know, maybe your editor put that in. You may not even be one of the two of you. I don’t know. Maybe

[00:08:57.13] spk_2:
I

[00:08:58.76] spk_0:
trust

[00:09:36.43] spk_2:
me amy and I spent many, many hours on many, many aspects of writing and editing to make sure that what is in the book. We both stand behind. And so absolutely with that sentence. Something that I think we we both stand behind. Um We can’t let you said we can’t let one small population in this case rich privileged white men be the ones who design all of the technology and decide all of the outcomes for everyone. We really need to. And in the book we talk a lot about how it’s so important, why it is so important to go back to communities and communities who understand their needs to understand their priorities and let communities drive that process. That would then include um policymakers. That then includes funders that that includes um technologists themselves and that includes

[00:09:53.21] spk_0:
uh

[00:09:54.53] spk_2:
the leaders and employees at social impact organizations.

[00:09:58.85] spk_0:
Another aspect of it is that just what’s what problems get solved? What what what gets attention?

[00:10:06.18] spk_2:
Absolutely. And um I think we have lots of ideas on this, but I have been talking for so long. Um I would love to pass it.

[00:10:29.88] spk_0:
We’ll get a simple word gets amy sample Ward will get their chance. Okay. Um Alright, if you insist for All right. Um Okay, if we have to go to Amy Now. All right. Uh You say somebody wrote this sentence. Uh Exactly related to what I was just saying. We dream of community centered work that builds from community centered values and there’s a lot of emphasis on going back to values. Um Why don’t you uh just sort of introduce us to the some of those values amy

[00:14:05.53] spk_1:
sure. Happy to. um I think that you know one thing we say in the book and we’ve we’ve enjoyed getting to talk to a lot of groups about since the book has come out is that everything we do as people is centered on values, but often times we don’t talk about them, we don’t make sure that our values are aligned when we start working on something. And so then those values become a some and I think we’ve all heard many different puns about what happens when you operate on assumption. Right. And so that’s that’s kind of part and parcel of also assuming that the only people that can make technology are people with certain degrees or that have a certain amount of money or that you know look a certain way. Um again that that’s those are values that we’re not talking about and that we need to talk about so that we can be really intentional about what we want to focus on. Um and in the book, you know of who has already been speaking to some of those values that there’s important role and we need to prioritize lots of different lived experience as an important part of any technology project. Um that a lot of different people should be involved in every single stage of that process, not like at the end, once we build something and we like pull the pull the little cover off and are like today we built it, what do you think there should be no pulling the cover off? You know, everyone should have already been part of it and known it was being built this whole time. Um but also values that I think are important to can it name early in the conversation around accessibility, so much of the barriers and the walls around technology projects that are there, you know again, whether people are talking about them explicitly or not that are maintaining this this false reality, that only certain people can be involved are coming from a place of saying oh we speak a certain way we use these acronyms. We we talk about things without slowing down for other people to be involved. So what does accessibility look like? Not just that a tool could be used with a system of you know devices but really that you are not using jargon that you’re making sure things are being held at the time of day when those folks that you want involved can be there. Um that child care is provided that your user group meetings, you know every level that you are operating in ways that really do make things accessible to everyone. Um and I think another value that we like to talk about early in conversations is the book is kind of a big idea like the world is not the world we have right now, like what if it was not this, what if it was equitable and just and wonderful. Um, and I know you want to talk about the illustrations colorful uh, you know, so to get there. It’s not like two steps. It’s not okay. That’ll be on like the 2024 plan, right? It’s a lot of work. And so technology and the relationship and expectations we put on it just like social change are that we can make incremental right now immediate changes and at the same we can be working on really big changes. The shifts that get us to a very different world that we have to do both. We can’t just say, well let’s live with harmful technologies and and harmful realities until we can all of a sudden just change over to the like non harmful one. Um, you know, we need to make changes today as we’re building for bigger change.

[00:16:31.93] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They have a bi weekly newsletter that I get. It’s called on message and they had something interesting in the, in the last one, it was five ways to find the timely hook and I’ve talked about news hooks with them that can be a great opportunity for you to be heard when there is some kind of a news hook. So how do you find these timely hooks, couple of their ideas track recognition days and months. I just did that in august, it was national make a will month and I did a bunch of content around that and there was, you know, there are days and months for everything like pickled day and a lot. So you can search for, you can search for the the recognition days and months, find something that fits with your work. Another one was just staying current with the news. They said they were gonna send their e newsletter on the day that queen Elizabeth died but they thought better of it because you’re not gonna be able to get people’s attention. People are just gonna be deleting emails more rapidly because they’re consumed with the death of the queen. So they held off a day or two. Um, and tying to a trend is another one that they suggested. Uh and they give the example of when um including salaries in job postings was trending and they used the example of somebody who actually wrote contrary to that idea. But it was timely because it was something that lots of people were talking about. So there’s a couple of ways of identifying the hooks, You can get their newsletter on message. Of course you go to turn hyphen two dot c o. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission now back to the tech that comes next. How is it that technology is not neutral? Amy

[00:16:36.71] spk_1:
well,

[00:16:37.09] spk_0:
humans, humans,

[00:17:26.74] spk_1:
I don’t think humans have the capacity to be neutral. And we are the ones creating technology. I mean even before digital technologies. You know, the number of um, pieces of farm equipment that could be considered technology, you know, humans built those that kill people who are left handed because the tool was built by right handed people to be used with your right hand, right? Like there’s there’s not a lot of evidence that humans can be neutral. And so then you add to that that we’re building it with a often very small group of people not talking about values for something that is meant to be you know, used in a different context with different people. It’s it just doesn’t have the capacity to be neutral. Let’s

[00:17:43.78] spk_0:
take something that’s so ubiquitous. It’s an easy example. Let’s take facebook. How is so somebody’s facebook is there, you can use it or not use it. How is that not just a neutral entity sitting there for you to use or not use,

[00:19:31.46] spk_1:
I mean you are welcome to use or not use facebook but just because you have the choice to use something or not use, it doesn’t mean it’s neutral. The platform is collecting your data is selling your data is deciding whether and how you can use the tool to connect with other people or to create groups, right? It is not allowing you the control over how your data and and use of the platform goes. So it’s kind of a false choice really. Um and for a lot of people, it is very much a false choice. There. There isn’t the feeling that they cannot use it if it’s the only quote unquote free tool that they could use to find certain resources or to otherwise, you know, talk and stay in communication with certain people, but at what cost, you know, and I think that’s the kind of conversation we’re trying to spark in the book is technology isn’t neutral, we just accept that and then we say and so at what cost at what harm are people having to make these choices around how they navigate technology? And we we have never presupposed in this book or in our lives that facebook or any other platform is going to necessarily make the choices that are best for the community and that’s why policymakers have an entire chapter in the book. You don’t need to be a text specialist or have a who is you know, technical background to be a policymaker that’s making smart protective policies that for users we need to say, hey people should be able to access and protect and restrict their data. Let’s make some policies around that. Right? Because the platforms are not going to make that policy themselves that that restricts them. Um and so I think again, all of these different groups together, get us to the tools that we need and not just the technology developers themselves,

[00:19:56.28] spk_0:
a few anything you want to add to that. Uh My my question about why facebook is not a neutral tool.

[00:20:50.18] spk_2:
I I think Amy gave a really good overview as to why technology and facebook in this case is not neutral. I think um you know, a lot of people now you’ll hear say they algorithm made me see it, the algorithm didn’t make me see something and that just also goes to the fact that someone has programmed the algorithm, someone has decided what will be given more weight or what will be given less weight, what will be emphasized won’t be emphasized. And so that then drives your interactions and the biases that the programmers have or the stated goals that the owners of the platform have then get seen to encoded into the technology that you use, whether it’s facebook or any other platform that then can affect how you interact, even if you do decide to often to using the technology as Amy mentioned, you always well not always, but you often have a choice as to which technology you want to use, what platform you want to log into, you want to engage with or not, but once you’re there, your choices are often limited in ways you might not realize because of the fact that technology is not neutral.

[00:21:20.02] spk_0:
We’re getting into the idea of oppressive systems which which the book talks about for you wanna explain. So, facebook may very well be an example, but what what what what’s oppressive systems generally,

[00:23:01.71] spk_2:
you know, I think one of the underlying themes of our book is that technology can really be used to enhance goals and to sort of enhance missions, and we argue in the book that we want to, you know, social impact organizations, especially communities to find ways for technology to enhance their mission, to help them accomplish their goals more often. But the reality is that technology again sits on top of people because it’s created by people and so to the egg extent in which extent to which um there are oppressive systems and society, whether that’s around how people get jobs or access education or access other resources, um that is then I can just be translated into the technology systems that then help facilitate our lives. It’s the same principles for different sort of outdated policies that have been rooted in unequal access. For example, if you just take those policies and write code then um that directly relates to policies, the new system, this technical system you’ve created has those same oppressive oppressive aspects in that system. And so again, when we talk about designing technology does need to come back to what communities are we designing for? Are we talking to them? Are we letting communities really drive that work? And through the development process are we really keeping in mind some of the historical context, some of the social context, some of the knowledge about biases and how that appears in different technology and what ties doesn’t have to how organizations function and how policymakers do their work, Um what we need to be funding to make sure that we have the time and the money to invest in a more inclusive process.

[00:25:40.82] spk_1:
I just want to add as I was talking about that um, and kind of trying to like hear our own conversation while while we’re in it and to share the reminder that while of course like facebook is this giant huge technology platform. Um, we are also talking about technologies that nonprofits make, you know, an organization that decided to have their staff or hire a web designer to help build something on their website that allowed users to complete their profile or to donate on their website. All of these things that organizations are doing with technology is also developing technology, right? It also needs to be inclusive. It should also have a lot of your community members and users part of that process the whole way, right. This isn’t just for for profit giant tech companies to hear this feedback, this is everyone including the way we fund our own technology inside of organizations, the way we prioritize or build or don’t prioritize or you know, don’t build technology and when we, when we think of it that way and you know, it’s just so easy, I think or I think it is easy to to say, oh my gosh, facebook is an oppressive platform, all of these things are horrible. It’s done all of these things. We can, you know, we could search for news articles from a decade of issues, right? But that kind of shifts the attention. Um, and acts like we as organizations don’t have any blame to share in that not that we’re sharing in facebook’s blame, but like we too are part of making not great decisions around technology, you know. Um there’s an organization that I I experienced this as a user on their website and had to give them some feedback that there they collected demographics as you’re creating your profile super common to do right? Um, their race and ethnicity category for like all humans that would answer this category only had four options total of all of the races and ethnicities in the world. There were four. Not one of those options was multiracial, not one of those was other. Let me tell you the thing you didn’t list here, right? You had to pick required question with four radio

[00:25:52.25] spk_0:
buttons.

[00:26:29.98] spk_1:
That’s that is that is harmful, right? Like you and maybe there was a good reason, not a good reason. Maybe there was a reason that you felt, you know, your funder makes you report in those four categories. I totally understand how hard it is to like manage your work as well as meeting all these funder reporting requirements. That’s something we talk about the book that is an issue. We need to go fix funders reporting requirements, but just because a funder says give us state in these four categories does not mean those are your four categories right? You have an obligation to your car community to be better than that. Um, and so I just want to name that as an example that we’re not just taking the easy route of complaining about facebook, which I would love to do for like five more hours.

[00:26:41.44] spk_0:
No facebook is not even facebook is not even,

[00:26:43.71] spk_1:
you know what I mean? Also trying to name it as something we’re doing inside our organizations to

[00:28:58.50] spk_0:
your example reminds me of the example you cite from jude shimmer who says, you know, she’s filling out a donation, they’re filling out a donation form and there’s no mx option. It was mr mrs Miss, I guess no mx um, by the way, you had several nonprofit radio guests quoted in the book, Jason sham steve hi jude. So I’m glad non profit radio brought these folks to your attention. You know, elevated their voices so that you, you became aware of them because you would not have known them outside. Well that’s elevating voices. That’s exactly exactly right. It’s time for a break. 4th dimension technologies, technology is an investment. Are you seeing this? You’re investing in staff productivity, you’re investing in your organization’s security donor relations because you’re preserving giving and all the actions and all the person’s preferences and their attendance and things. So you’re certainly investing in your donor relationships, uh, in your sustainability. So because technology is gonna help you preserve your mission into the future. So I don’t want to just throw something out and then not explain it. So see technology as an investment, fourth dimension can help you invest wisely. So, uh, make those savvy tech investment decisions. You can check them out on the listener landing page at Just like three D. But you know, they don’t want to mention deeper. Let’s return to the tech that comes next. All right. So let’s bring it. All right. So no, as I said, facebook is not mentioned in the book. I was choosing that as a ubiquitous example, but let’s bring it to something that is non profit created. Who wants to talk about. I kind of like the john jay college case because I used to do planned giving consulting for john jay, who, which of you knows that story better. Nobody

[00:30:43.41] spk_2:
looking at other resume. But I will, I will happen and talk about the john jay college example. So just briefly for folks who might not have read the book or gotten to that section of the book yet. Um, john jay college, an institution in new york city that had recognized that they had a lot of services geared towards making sure people finished their freshman year and started their second year, but not as many services geared towards people who, um, not as many services geared towards me, making sure people then ultimately graduate. And so specifically they had noticed that they had a large number of students or a not insignificant number of students who completed three quarters of the credits they needed to graduate but didn’t ultimately complete their degree and graduate. They partnered Data kind, which is an organization that provides data science and ai expertise to other profits and government agencies. Um so they worked with those data scientists to really understand their issue to look at the 20 years of data that the academic institution had collected. The data. Scientists ran about two dozen models, I think it was and ended up coming up with ended up developing a specific model specific tool for john jay college To use that identified students who are at risk of dropping out and potential interventions. The John Jay College staff then made the final determination as to what intervention would be done and how that would be done. And two years after this program was started at John Jay College credits the program with helping additional nine 100 students graduate. Um and so that is, I think, you know, one of the examples that we’re talking about of really the technology coming together with the subject matter experts really being used to enhance the mission and then really again, technology and humans working together to make sure that the outcomes are our best for everyone.

[00:31:04.33] spk_0:
There’s some takeaway there too in regard to ethics, the use of the data collection and use of the data. Can you talk about that? Absolutely,

[00:31:51.44] spk_2:
Absolutely, absolutely. As we think about data collect data collection data use data analysis, I think in general, especially in the social impact space, you want to make sure that you got consent when you collect the data that you’re collecting it in ways that make sense, that you’re not necessarily over collecting um you’re storing in the right way is protected in the right ways. Um and then as you need to do something with it, you can you can access it, you can use it as a way to foster communication across a different departments. I think one thing that was really exciting and talking to the john jay college staff as they said this program in that development actually force conversations across departments which if you’ve ever done any work at an academic institution, you know, working across departments on campus can be challenging and so sometimes the data can force those conversations and can also help strengthen arguments for the creation or um termination of different programs.

[00:32:15.79] spk_0:
Thank you because ethics is one of the one of your core values ethical considerations around around technology development and

[00:33:23.63] spk_1:
I think that’s I like that you’re bringing that up tony because I think it reinforces, I mean a fool was saying this, but just to kind of like explain those words when we’re saying that technology is there to help humans, it means that algorithm that was created is not moving forward and sending, you know, a resource or sending an inch invention to a student, it is not there to do the whole process itself, right? It’s there for its portion and then humans are looking at it, they are deciding, you know, who needs, what resources, who needs what intervention. And they then do that outreach right? Versus that idea that I think nonprofits especially think of all the time. Like if we just got the tool then this whole like thing will be solved and it’ll just like somehow run its course, you know, and like the robots will be in charge and that’s not great. We don’t need to do that. We’re not looking for robots to be in charge but also in this really successful example of technology being used, it’s still required people, you know, the technology isn’t here to replace them. It’s to do the part that we don’t have the time to do. Like crunch all those numbers and figure those things out and then the people are doing what people are meant to do, which is the relationship side, The intervention side, the support side, you know. Um and

[00:33:43.70] spk_0:
I just want to kind

[00:33:44.49] spk_1:
Of separate the two right?

[00:33:46.71] spk_0:
The tool was to flag those who are at greatest risk of not graduating after they have I think three quarters of the points or credits. Uh so so that

[00:33:58.99] spk_1:
that

[00:34:13.73] spk_0:
right, that that’s an ideal day. That’s an ideal uh data mining artificial intelligence task. Just flag the folks who are at greatest risk because we’ve identified the factors like I don’t remember what any of the factors were. G. P. A. I think was one. But whatever the factors are identified them now flag these folks. Now it’s time for a human to intervene and give the support to these to this population so that we can have 900 more folks graduating than than we expect would have without without the use of the tool.

[00:35:19.70] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. And just to continue to build on what Amy was saying. I think sometimes as nonprofits are considering technology or maybe hearing pitches about why they should use technology or why they should select a particular technology. It can be overwhelming because sometimes the perception is that if you adopt technology it has to then take over your system and and rem move sort of the human aspect of running your nonprofit and that’s simply not the case. You can always push back as to what those limits need to be sort of in general but also very specifically for your organization for your community. What makes sense? What doesn’t make sense? And so really prioritizing as Amy said, the using the technology to take advantage and to do those tasks that or just simply more efficient and computers are more capable of doing that while you use the humans involved for the more human touch and some of those more societal factors I think really um it’s important to emphasize that as leaders of social impact organizations, as leaders of nonprofits, you have that agency to sort of understand and to decide where the technology is used and where it isn’t used.

[00:36:57.67] spk_1:
Yeah, we, we were really conscious when we were working on the book to disrupt this pattern that you know, it’s like you learn a new word and then you see it in everything that you read. Um once, once we talk about it here, you’re gonna like go and everything you click on on the internet, you’re going to see it. But technology companies have been trying to sell us for a long time very successfully that their product is a solution and technologies are constantly using that language when you’re looking at their website, when they’re talking to you, you know, this is an all in one crm solution, this whatever, they are not solutions, they are tools and as soon as we, as you know, non profit staff start adopting that, they are the solutions, we then start kind of relinquishing the control, right? And thinking, oh well the solution is that this too, tool has all of this, It is just a tool, you are still the solution right? You are still the human and we, we didn’t want to have that language in the book. So you know, we’re always talking about technology as a tool because with, without humans needing to put it to work, it doesn’t need to exist. We don’t need to have a world that’s trying to make sure we can maintain all of this technology if we don’t need it anymore. Thank you for your service. Like please move along. We don’t, we don’t need that anymore. And that’s okay. We don’t need to feel bad that a tool isn’t needed anymore. It’s not needed. Great. We have different needs now, you know, um and changing that kind of dynamic and relationship inside organizations.

[00:37:24.77] spk_0:
A Crm database is a perfect example of that. It’s not gonna, it’s not gonna build relationships with people for you. It’s just gonna keep track of the activities that you have and it’s gonna identify people’s giving histories and event attendance and help them ticket etcetera. But it’s not going to build personal relationships. They’re gonna lead to greater support whether it’s volunteering or being a board member or donating whatever, you know, it’s

[00:37:39.88] spk_1:
not the mission, It’s not the food at the gala. Even if it sold the tickets to the gala right? Like it isn’t at all.

[00:38:13.47] spk_0:
So I, so I gathered so the Wiley did most of the writing on the book is what I gather because I managed a couple of quotes and nobody like nobody claimed them. So um and also the I I see there’s only two pictures, I like a lot of pictures in books. You only have two pictures and then you repeat the same two pictures from the beginning, You repeat them at the end and and they’re in black and white, they’re not even four color pictures. So there’s a little shortcomings

[00:38:15.70] spk_1:
that’s because in the book they could only be black and white, but in the e book they can, the one that’s meant to be in color can be in color.

[00:38:25.00] spk_2:
And also we knew that our readers have imaginations of their own and the words that we have on the page would evoke such strong images we didn’t want

[00:38:33.81] spk_0:
to overly

[00:38:34.58] spk_2:
provide images in the book.

[00:40:08.82] spk_0:
Very good, well played. Okay, it’s time for Tony’s take Two. I’m headed to the Holy Land in november. I’m traveling to Israel for two weeks and I’m wondering if you have suggestions of something that I should see? We can crowdsource my my sight seeing a few things that are already on my itinerary, of course the old city in Jerusalem um Haifa and the Baha’I gardens the Dead Sea and uh mitzpe ramon. You may have some other ideas, things that uh you found or places to eat, maybe that would be that would be great little uh terrific places that I should try in either Jerusalem or tel Aviv I’ll be spending a lot of time in, in those two places but also near these other, these other ones that I mentioned to Haifa So if you know a good restaurant eatery, I’d appreciate that too. You could get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com. I’d be grateful for your Israel travel suggestions and anything else that you may recommend about Israel travel. I haven’t been there, so I’d be grateful to hear from you that is tony steak too. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the tech that comes next with Amy sample ward and a few a Bruce. Let’s let’s talk about another story. Talk about, let’s talk about, yeah, you, you all pick one, pick one of your case cases stories to talk about that that you like,

[00:44:39.78] spk_1:
I can talk about one since the flu already talked about one, but I was thinking because you already said it earlier, the food sector, so there’s one in there on rescuing leftover cuisine, an organization founded in new york. Um, and I think a pretty classic example of non profit trajectory like someone has personal lived experience they want to address, you know, make sure people don’t have the experience they had and create an organization kind of accidentally like they just start doing the work and they’re like, wait, what am I doing? Wait, we’ve just created a nonprofit, you know, and and kind of want to build because they start to have success actually doing the thing that they set out to do. Um, but like many nonprofits you reach the limit of human scale, like you get to the, this is only the number of people I can personally talk to or physically carry food, you know from one restaurant to to a shelter or whatever. Um and realize, oh we’re gonna need some tools to help us make this thing work. Um and grow beyond just the handful of initial people and also like many nonprofits, that was a very reactive process, right? Like oh gosh, we need a calendar tool, here’s one, oh gosh, we need a, you know, a phone tool, here’s one and not what is the best, you know, what what do we really need? How do we solve these goals? So they found themselves a few years in with very common nonprofit sector, like little patchwork, you know, all different kinds of things. They’ve kind of forced and often the the integration to use the technical term, the integration between tools was humans like answered the phone and then typed it into the tool because the person on the phone doesn’t have access to type it into the schedule er right? Like I they were having to be the tech integrations as humans, which meant humans were not doing human work, right? Humans were doing work that that the robots should be able to do. Um and that’s when they brought in more strategic dedicated technology. Um staff helped to build and again, what they didn’t really realize at first is they were building a product, you know? Um I think this is a bigger conversation of you and I have with organizations is we are we have products, we’ve built products. It’s not bad. And I think especially in the US, we’ve come to think that product is like a for profit word and we will have nothing to do with it. But what it just means is like it’s a package, it is a thing that’s doing what it’s meant to do. And we should think about how we make sure it works and who can access it. And you know, we bring some strategy to it. Um, but their process is really what drew us to including them in the book. They had a really inclusive process where all the different folks from, you know, that were users. So the volunteers who physically like went to the restaurant and picked up that food and and took it to an agency, the people in the agencies, the people in the kitchen of the restaurants, all those different people were able to say, oh, I wish the tool did this. I wish that I could do this every day when I need to pick up food. I wish I could get this kind of message. Everyone was able to give that feedback and then see everybody else’s requests so that as the staff and community and the tech team prioritized, okay, well what works together? What can we build next? What’s in line to be built next? Everyone had transparency. Everyone could see that everyone understood, okay, my thing is last or like I know why my thing is last, right? Like people could really see and give feedback and be part of the process the whole time kind of back to the very beginning of this conversation with us said, even if they were not the technical developers themselves, they had important expertise, Right? It was good to know, oh, these five different restaurants all want the same thing, what’s happening, right? Like what is the thing that’s happening for restaurants trying to offer food? Let’s figure that out. We know who to get feedback from, you know, um, we’re just such a wonderful example of people really having everyone involved in the whole process. Um, and as they have done that and continue to do that, they were able to move people out of, you know, answering the phone to type into the calendar and move people into human jobs. Um, grew the organization, it’s now in eight different cities in different states. Um, and that’s just more of the mission happening, right? Because technology was invested in in the right kind of way.

[00:45:02.73] spk_0:
So takeaways are transparency in prioritizing development inclusiveness, including

[00:45:10.61] spk_1:
the, including

[00:45:11.71] spk_0:
the community, all the, all the different

[00:45:14.65] spk_1:
people

[00:45:15.63] spk_0:
who are impacted, giving them agency

[00:45:18.80] spk_1:
to

[00:45:19.70] spk_0:
contribute and not not have it developed.

[00:45:24.33] spk_1:
Yeah. And they had,

[00:45:25.28] spk_0:
I don’t know how much

[00:46:40.74] spk_1:
of this made it into the book, but you know, in talking with them and having conversations, you know, there were a number of times where the thing they were hearing from, all these different users that needed to be prioritized wasn’t something as staff, they maybe would have identified or at least prioritized, but when you’re really listening and having the community drive that development, you know, is that what you’re investing in is actually going to make it better for your community, right? It’s the thing that they’re asking for versus you saying, Gosh, we have, you know, what’s next on our development docket, wonder what we could build, Like let’s think of something you’re not kind of guessing, you know, exactly what needs to be built and that’s kind of reinforcing for your users that you are listening that you are valued that they want this to be as good of an expiry as possible for you, right, Which is really kind of um bringing people in closer and and I think we all know, especially tony as the fundraiser, like keeping people, it’s a lot easier than bringing in new people. So if you can keep those partners in great, you know, you keep those volunteers in instead of having to recruit new ones because you’re burning them out because they don’t like working with you, it’s not a good experience, you know? Um yeah,

[00:47:26.71] spk_0:
let’s talk about the funding, but but not from the funders side because most of the very few of our listeners are on the, on the funding side, they’re on the grantee side and so from the, well the book, you talk about social impact organizations, but this is tony-martignetti non profit radio not tony-martignetti social impact organization, radio So so if we could use, please use nonprofits as an example in their funding requests, they’re doing grants, what what can nonprofits do smarter about requesting funds around technology, the development and the use that’s going to be required for the, you know, for the, for the project that they’re trying to get funded.

[00:47:32.08] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:47:32.45] spk_2:
absolutely. This is a question that Amy and I have gotten so many times since the book has come out.

[00:47:42.97] spk_0:
Okay, well I’ll give you a milk toast bland ubiquitous question that not that

[00:49:01.18] spk_2:
it’s a milk toast question, but it is one that is so important to organizations and that even for non profit organizations that have thought about technology before, then the question becomes how are you going to get it funded right? And so, um, it’s an incredibly important question. And so I think that there are a couple of things that non profits can do. One is to seek out funders who are explicitly funding technology, we’ve seen an increase I think over the past several years in different foundations, different companies who are specifically funding technology and so looking for those types of funders. Um, I think it’s really important, I think then another thing to do is to really make the case as we make in the book that um, funding technology is part of funding programs of the organizations and part of funding the running of the organization. Um, it’s not simply an overhead costs. That is a nice to have that. If you get around to it, you can do it, but really you need to have strong technology and data practices in order to design your programs to run your programs. Um people, you know, are used to being out in the world and interacting with technology in certain and so when they come to your nonprofit, they still probably would like to have a website that sees them that recognizes them. That’s useful. They might like to know how to get connected to other people in your community, other staff members and what those communication technologies might look like and more. And so really looking for ways to write technology into program design as non profits are doing that

[00:49:25.77] spk_1:
as well. And

[00:49:25.97] spk_2:
then I think thirdly, just being connected with other nonprofits through organizations such as N 10 and listening to other great podcasts such as this one um to hear what, what other nonprofits are doing and what’s been successful as well. And applying some of those techniques to your own organization.

[00:49:47.95] spk_0:
I feel bad that I gave short Shrift to the, to the foundation listeners. So, I mean there’s there’s lessons in what you just said. Um, are there one or two other things that we can point out for uh for foundation listeners that to raise their consciousness.

[00:51:25.89] spk_2:
Absolutely. Um, I think one of, I think, you know, there are many things about technology that can be funded, especially with nonprofit organizations. And I really encourage foundations to think about what it means to really fund that inclusive innovation process and to fund when I say innovation. I mean recognizing that version one is might not be perfect. And so funding version 1.1 and 1.2 and version two point oh, is just as valuable as funding version one. We see this all the time in the private sector that, you know, my phone gets updates on a regular basis and I still have a, and that’s okay. And so really wanting to make sure that funders recognize that we don’t need to just create new technology every time for the sake of creating something new, but really allowing the space for that iteration and really adjusting to the community needs is really important. I think also making sure that we’re funding inclusivity and so that can be things such as uh compensating people, you know, from the community for time, um, as they are involved in this development process, making sure that there’s money in the budget for all staff, not just a member of the tech team to get training on technology, but there’s money for all staff to get training on the different technologies that the organization is using. Um, and also the timelines that are given to nonprofits doing their programs allows for that really critical community listening and community input process into developing any technology and then ultimately developing and executing programs,

[00:51:49.02] spk_0:
I’m glad you just used community as an example because I wanted to probe that a little deeper how

[00:51:55.99] spk_1:
I

[00:52:11.32] spk_0:
guess, I guess I’m asking how you define community because you say that, you know, technologists and social impact or eggs and policymakers and communities can can be should be more involved in uh, technology development. How are you defining communities there?

[00:54:23.04] spk_1:
We’re not in a way because technology that N 10 builds for, you know, the community that that we have is very different than um, you know, that would be a bunch of nonprofit staff from mostly U. S. And Canada, but also all over the world, um of all different departments. Right? That that would be the community that intent has, but the community around, um, you know, the equitable giving circle in Portland. Well, that’s Portland’s specific very, you know, geographically different than the N 10 community. Um, it’s folks who can do monthly donations that want to support, uh, you know, black community in Portland, it community is meant to be defined based on what is trying to be built and and for whom it’s meant to be used. Um, and that’s going to be flexible, but I think where it really comes in is what we talked about in the book, in the funding section, but also all of the sections is what does it look like when we expect that transfer to community ownership is the final stage of technology development. Right. And so if that is the final stage, if um the community, you know, owning the technology that was developed by someone, um is the final step well, there needs to be a level of training and an investment that is very different than if you’re planning to keep this privately yourself the whole time, right? If you’re going to turn it over to the community to own it and maintain it, you’re going to be investing in that community in the process in a very different way. You’re going to be including people in a different way. You’re going to be thinking about knowledge transfer, not just technical transfer, right? Um and so that relationship with the community is inherent to the goal at the end. And I think that’s for us, part of what is so important about thinking about that big question of what does it look like for community to really own technology? Like even in the biggest widest sense, because right now, We as users don’t own the Internet, right? Really, there’s there’s 45 million people just in the us that can’t even access broadband. So the idea that the any of these tools, even in the widest biggest, you know, most access sense are are collectively owned isn’t real. And so that goes back to community, but it also goes back to policy, it goes back to how we’re investing in these tools, what values we are even using when we, when we access them? Um, that’s the whole book right there, I guess.

[00:55:00.40] spk_0:
Uh, the book is also, uh, a lot of questions. I always hope to get answers. When I read books this, this book, lots of questions questions at the end of every chapter and then they’re compiled at the end. They’re organized differently at the end. Why did you take that tack?

[00:56:06.65] spk_2:
Absolutely, yes. Our book does perhaps answer some questions, but it does provide questions. And that’s because what this work looks like varies based on the community you’re in based on your nonprofit organization, based on your role as a policy maker based on your roll thunder perhaps. Um, it varies. And so what your specific solution will look like. There’ll be some of the same building blocks, but the actual techniques you use will need to vary. And so the questions that we have at the end of each chapter at the end of the chapter on social impact organizations. For example, there are, I think 25 questions and five of those are questions that you ask someone as a nonprofit can ask of other nonprofits about technology. You as someone as a nonprofit can ask of your funders to start that conversation with some funders that we were just sort of summarizing now. What are specific questions that you should be asking of your funders were specific questions you should be asking of technologists that come to you and say, have we got a solution for you? Um, what are specific questions that you should be asking? Policymakers? Um, within the realm of what’s allowed for nonprofits to do part of the policy making process. And what are some real questions that you can ask of the communities that you serve and the communities you partner with to really get out, what are their needs and how might that tie to some of the technology needs for your organization?

[00:56:43.69] spk_0:
So what have we uh, what haven’t we talked about yet? That, that either of you would like to, uh, you feel like I’ve spent enough time on the well, here, I am asking you and then I’m proposing something. So I’ll cut myself off what, what what would, uh, whatever we talked about yet, either of you. That

[00:58:18.09] spk_1:
I mean, I think one thing that we have experienced is that there are some topics like how do we do this or how do we fund this or how do we make change? Um, you know, there’s some topics that recur throughout a lot of conversations, but ultimately, we have never had the same conversation about the book twice because that’s part of writing a whole book. That’s just questions, you know, and isn’t all the answers that isn’t Oh, great. You know, turn to chapter three where we list the 10 things you need to do tomorrow? Like there are no, I mean there’s probably 100 things, right? But um because of that, what we wanted to do when we wrote the book, even if, you know, we said at the beginning, even if no one reads this but ourselves, we want to feel like we are starting a conversation that we are just going to keep starting and keep having and keep getting closer to figuring out what’s next because it’s gonna be a whole long path. Um, and if it if we’re here to write a how to book that, who are we to write that? Right? Who are we to write the how to book on how we completely change the world? But what if we wrote a book that said, y’all, how do we change the world? Like really truly how let’s go, let’s go figure that out that motivates us. And so if it motivates us, it probably motivates others. And these conversations, I mean, I just love them because this yes, we had some of those recurring themes that all of us think about all the time. But this was a completely different conversation than we’ve had before and that, well, you know, different than we’ll have tomorrow. And I think what we’ve talked about the two of us is when we have

[00:58:31.93] spk_0:
not only not only different, but better,

[00:59:15.21] spk_1:
but when we have opportunities to talk about the book together with folks like you knowing that people are listening, right? Thousands of, of non private radio listeners, we want to, in a way have this be like a practice session for all of them so that when they finish the podcast and they go to their staff meeting, they’re like, hey, a food amy like never had their sentences thought out before they started probably said a million times. The bar isn’t high. I can just start asking questions, right? That’s why we have all the questions at the end. I can just start talking about this. There is no perfect, perfect doesn’t exist. So let’s not worry that I don’t know the exact way to talk about this technology project. Let’s just start talking about it and and get in there and have these conversations that we have almost model that process of just practicing the work of, of changing things.

[00:59:33.45] spk_0:
Anything you would like to uh leave us with anything we haven’t talked about that you would like to,

[01:00:00.54] spk_2:
you know, the subtitle of the book talks about building a more equitable world and we call out a few specific roles. But really I think it’s just important to recognize that we all have a role to play in building a more equitable world. And so if you see something in this world that you want changed. Hopefully this book does give you some real ideas about how you can go about doing that, some real questions to ask to find other people who can help you along that journey because really building an equitable world is an inclusive process and that includes you. So that’s that’s all I would add.

[01:00:43.80] spk_0:
She’s a for Bruce at a few uh underscore Bruce, her co author is Amy sample ward at Amy R S Ward and you’ll find the book the tech that comes next, how change makers, philanthropists and technologists can build an equitable world at the tech that comes next dot com. Amy, thank you very much. Pleasure.

[01:00:46.45] spk_1:
Thanks so much Tony.

[01:00:48.33] spk_2:
Thank you.

[01:01:39.63] spk_0:
You’re welcome. Thank you. Next week. Gene Takagi returns with Trust in nonprofits. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and his music is by scott stein, Thank you for that information Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for April 11, 2022: Measuring Equity

 

Danielle Fox, Ellonda Williams & Raj Aggarwal: Measuring Equity

We’re kicking off the 2022 Nonprofit Technology Conference (#22NTC) conversations, with a discussion of how equity can be incorporated into your nonprofit’s performance measurement. Sharing their collaboration are Danielle Fox at Union of Concerned Scientists, Ellonda Williams with B Lab and Rajneesh Aggarwal from Provoc.

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[00:02:45.84] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%,, I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I get slapped with a diagnosis of pollen, euro Maya’s itis. If you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show measuring equity, We’re kicking off the 2022 nonprofit technology conference conversations with a discussion of how equity can be incorporated into your nonprofits, performance measurement, sharing their collaboration are Danielle Fox at Union of concerned scientists. Alando Williams with the lab and Rajneesh Agarwal From provoke On Tony’s take two, you’re responsible for donor relationships. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is measuring equity. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 N T C. By now. You know what that is. You know that it’s the 2022 nonprofit technology conference, you know that it’s hosted by N 10 very smart savvy organization helping everyone use technology in their social change work. You know, all this. What you don’t know is that my guests now are Daniel Fox, Alando Williams and raj Aggarwal but now you do now you’re informed now, you know, as much as I do Daniel Fox is campaign and Science network manager at the Union of concerned scientists. Alando Williams is director of justice Equity, diversity and inclusion Jedi at B lab and raj aggarwal is president of provoke Daniel Ayalon garage welcome to nonprofit radio and and Farage welcome back. I hope I’m, I hope I’m as excited to have you back now uh, in half an hour or 45 minutes as I am now, Rogers already given me trouble before we even started recording. So I’ll have to check in with me every 15 minutes to see how my raj meter is is is jumping. Okay,

[00:02:47.88] spk_1:
what about what about my tony meter?

[00:03:07.24] spk_0:
It’s less important because that’s the relevance of that is raj Aggarwal. non profit radio that’s where you can measure your tony meter, but tony-martignetti non profit radio I can measure my raj meter anytime I want to. So pardon me, Yolanda,

[00:03:08.51] spk_2:
it’s House Rules,

[00:03:33.94] spk_0:
House Rules, House rules, get your own show essentially it was what my advice is to, to raj. Okay, let’s see, So let’s give everybody a chance to give a brief, let’s, you know, we’re not, you’re, you’re talking to an audience of 13,000 folks who are already in nonprofits. So you’re you’re likely not talking to potential donors, but for a little context please, you know, briefly Danielle, what’s the union of concerned scientists about?

[00:03:37.34] spk_3:
Sure. So the concern of concerned scientists is a science advocacy organization, essentially. We’re all about how do you put science and the scientific community to work for a better world. Uh, and that also means more just policies and political systems and so we’ll get into it a little bit soon but working with the justice and equity lens is fundamental for us to actually be able to fulfill our mission. Um And so that’s why I’m excited to talk about how we measure it.

[00:04:33.84] spk_0:
Thank you for supporting the work of scientists. Uh it’s especially now, but please thank you. You know, science scientists, they’re I think they’re not to be marginalized and and mocked there to be central to a central to a conversation and essential in a in a rational world. So thank you for doing that, Yolanda. Please tell us about B Lab

[00:05:26.14] spk_2:
you too. Yes. Um so the lab is a non profit network that transforms the global economy to benefit all people communities and planet. Basically what we do is really our vision is to create a collective vision of inclusive, equitable and regenerative economic economy. So we really come into organizations and businesses known as the corpse. Um and we certify them using our set of standards to really take a look at their organization. How are they treating them? How are they treating their community? How are they paying their staff? How do folks feel showing up as part of a member of that organization? And so collectively we have over 4000 dead corpse across the globe. Um and we all come together to really assess how to do things in a more um Jedi forward and equitable way with really um centering around economy and how do we change? How do we think about business

[00:05:29.74] spk_0:
is B lab the certifying like agency or not for for B corpse? It’s isn’t where folks apply for for for B corp status.

[00:05:41.24] spk_2:
You got it. That’s a really good question. So be lab, which is where I work. Um It’s part of our entire B lab global network. So we are movement. So be lab itself is the certifying body and that is where individuals kind of start um taking our basic impact assessment in terms of your organization to really assess how do you fare as it as it as it is against our current standards. Um and that kind of gets, gets your foot running in terms of getting certified to become a B corporation.

[00:06:20.24] spk_0:
Excellent. Alright, thank you raj. Tell us about provoke which is spelled P R O V O C. When I first met Roger, I thought it was provocative. He corrected me. Of course it’s provoked raj, Tell us about the the agency,

[00:06:29.74] spk_1:
thank you. tony So provoked is a brand, the narrative strategy and uh communications and campaign um firm that roots are that does their work through an ever deepening racial equity lens.

[00:07:08.94] spk_0:
All right, thank you all again for being here. Um Daniel. Let’s start with you. Oh well, I didn’t introduce the session topic which is can equity be measured lessons from a great collaboration Danielle. It seems that you’re the you’re the organization that was interested in as you said, Centering I guess you know, walking the walk now of uh justice equity, diversity, inclusion Jedi why why did that become important to you when whenever it did versus some other time.

[00:08:22.04] spk_3:
Yeah. Absolutely. Well I think it’s I think that the organization has had to do its own unlearning relearning and thinking about, you know, as we look at the political systems and systems of racism and injustice that we need to change how we do our work frankly and how we show up. Uh it’s a different definition of success if we’re going to be true to our mission and our stated values and so with that um we’ve tried to work hard and continue to continue to learn, continue to mess up, continue to make progress and continue to take steps forward. Uh, but the work that we did with provoke was specifically around our science network. So we have this network of about 25,000 scientists and technical experts that come to U. C. S. To say hey I want to grow as an advocate and get involved and put my skills to work for social and policy change now for us for us to truly be successful. That meant that we also needed to ground how we were organizing and cultivating scientists and researchers and putting their skills to work to rectify social wrongs. That includes fighting environmental racism. That includes addressing the disproportionate impacts of all the health and environmental hazards that are going unchecked that we’re trying to put science to work to help tackle. So at the end of the day, that is really what it’s about. I think we truly

[00:08:54.34] spk_2:
when

[00:09:42.84] spk_3:
you know better you have to do better, Right? So we needed to change how we define success. And one of the things that has been so fantastic is to see the power of scientists as authentic partners with communities most impacted by the issues we’re tackling. And so the initiative that we were working on is looking at how do we scale up the ability for scientists to join us and get active? And that was through building local teams. That’s a distributed network of now, more than 50 groups throughout the country who are getting involved, but we knew that we needed to hold ourselves accountable and learn deeply about what did it what did it mean to have inclusive teams and what did it mean to integrate a lens of justice and equity and how we did our advocate building and engagement. And so that’s where we teamed up with provoked for and that’s how we’re trying to um you know, put metrics and accountability to the progress and what we’re trying to do here.

[00:09:58.74] spk_0:
Okay. And I love when you know better you need to do better. Excellent. Um Yolanda, how did how does B lab fit into this collaboration?

[00:12:30.04] spk_2:
Well, there’s there’s a couple of different ways that we fit into this collaborate. So this particular collaboration uh was between um you know, as Danielle mentioned with garage um and collaborating, collaborating provoked provoked as a report. So the fun thing about that is that I worked really closely with other be corpse that are in this space. And so not only is provoked A B corp but provoke is a B corp that that works in the Jedi space that works in the equity space. And so we’re able to constantly um share learnings, share what we share what we um discovered in in our our dialogues and our policies and our practices and and from the results um of surveys and internal work that we’re doing. So we all always able to kind of like iron sharpens iron. Right? So I’m in good company um with provoking those over, over in that space to be able to think more about, okay if provoking the people up and we’re working with other organizations to really identify how do we show up what role does the lab have in that and how do we kind of take the ideas that are that are that we’re starting at the lab in this conversation while we’re trying to tackle eyes some of these critical challenges. These are global challenges. So um sharing learnings and adapting what we learned is really a way to uh drive the learning forward. And then these types of collaborations, we can learn what went well and a really fun thing is when I was even spoken speaking with Danielle like a lot of this stuff is the same thing. There’s a lot of similarities in this realm and I think what it does that drives the, the understanding that Jedi is everybody’s job, equity, bility is everybody’s job there. It doesn’t matter what your role is, right? I’m quote unquote an expert, I didn’t give myself that title, right. People see people in the space and we give each other these titles, but we’re all accountable to this work. We’re all accountable, we’re showing up differently and I love what Danielle said as well around when you know better, you do better because then that means that you have to think differently and so our session and when we talk about how do we measure, how do we measure equity? It really starts with asking ourselves a lot of questions, why are we doing this way? You know, why do we always do it this way? Who who, who are we thinking about? Who’s in the margins and in these intersections there is no one size fits all. So something that Danielle and and and their team might do might be very different. But in the learnings of what went well, what are the challenges, what, what, what we still need to elevate um is where we can all try to come together to identify solutions that are gonna be solutions that we all can, can, can use.

[00:12:42.41] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:12:43.18] spk_2:
alright,

[00:13:34.14] spk_0:
now raj despite your, your pre recording admonition that I’m not turned to you too much. I promise. Trust me, trust me, I won’t, but I will at this point because you were the um I don’t know, maybe it’s not fair to say the catalyst, but you were the you were the, the, the helpers. That’s a great word, that that’s a sophisticated technical term. You were the you were the you were the drivers for the union of concerned scientists. So what should, what should nonprofits be thinking about? Like at the very early stages, what did you advise Danielle and her team, you know, at early stages to be, to be, I don’t know, assessing uh measuring or you know, given where they were at the time. You know, what was your advice at the earliest stages is what I’m trying to get at.

[00:16:02.34] spk_1:
Yeah, so first of all, um I just really appreciate Danielle and Yolanda and I learned so much from them all the time and just how we show up in partnership. So I was really taking this as an opportunity to learn from them. Um I appreciate the term catalyst and also with our work with the Union of concerned scientists, I was reminding the client just the other day that, you know, the term catalyst is a is a term and chemistry, which I actually have a degree in which I rarely use and the purpose of that is a catalyst is something that helps to reduce the activation energy of a chemical process. So, so it’s going to happen anyway. But hopefully through an intervention through hopefully our team, we can maybe get there a little bit quicker. That’s that’s what a catalyst does. So I’ll take it. Um um so you know, with with so obviously part of the reason that we participated in this work is we do a lot of work on equity. And often people ask this question, you know, because of just the nature of the world. Business capitalism is are we really getting there and how can we measure it? And how can we report on it? Um and that’s obviously really important to do that as well. And so some of the things that we asked, you know, for certain scientists to do was to really think critically about why they want to change the world, how they plan to turn that into reality and what best metrics represent that success. And so for example, sometimes we would hear language from um union of concerned scientists around things like high impact actions. And so we asked them to specify what is the list of those actions or underrepresented scientists. And then we asked them to get really specific about what does that mean race, economic status, gender identity, disability. And to amplify and support. And what does that mean? And one of the big things that came up in our session with uh N. T. C. Just last week is this idea of impact and how that’s been so much that comes up in nonprofits, but we don’t really define it. So this practice that really was a whole practice of definition and then determining what tools and measures you can go about doing it. And Danielle will talk to you also about like what has happened since they started doing this and where did it work? And where did it didn’t, where does subjectivity come into this? Because some of that, so many of these things are going to be subjective through how a person might perceive what they’re actually doing. Um, and it may not be measured by a specific number. So, um, that was, that’s just one thing in here. So what the union concerns scientists did was they established six key performance indicators and 15 supporting metrics to evaluate the growth of local engagement program across the US, um, including an equity specific KPI

[00:18:39.74] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Here’s the ways that they can help you media relations. You’ve heard me talk about this, that’s the relationships building those relationships with outlets like the chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times Market watch fast company Washington post. All places where turned to clients have gotten placements, content marketing. If you’re interested in white papers, Your annual report falls into that. You want them to do research for you. Maybe research on a program and then publish that research for you to share with donors, foundations. You know, other supporters research. They can do research for you and write about it. Speech writing, ghostwriting training on media management, media relations website. They can build website for you website creation redesign. I haven’t talked about that one. But yes they do that too. So all you know media relations, content management thought leadership web social media social marketing turn to communications, right? Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to measuring equity. Raj said this is all very subjective. I was thinking ethereal you know, but it’s it’s uh it’s it’s it’s hard to it’s hard to grasp however you you know how every whatever word you use to describe it. So Danielle, you know how did the U. C. S. Start to start to start to grasp it. You know, start, I mean eventually you end up with like raj said, you know, six KPI s and 15 supporting metrics, you know, whatever. But you know, how do you take that incrementally with this? Very subjective these very subjective concepts.

[00:21:57.84] spk_3:
Absolutely. Yeah. I’m happy to I’m gonna try to discuss it. It might sound a little messy when I discuss it but that’s so actually symbolic of what the processes and the fact that it’s just messy. Let’s do it. Oh no, it’s fine. Honestly if we’re going to talk about equity, it should always be a little uncomfortable. Um so one of the uh you know, one of the very first things I think we did with roger and the team and I really appreciated it was to just hold space for dialogue about why this even matters and what impact looks like. And I don’t mean that vaguely, we had to do a tactical visioning exercise. What described, what does impact look feel smell like when you see it, when does it take place? Um, and I think that that was so critical because we took the time to ask ourselves questions before thinking we knew anything just like Yolanda had said. Um, and so it was the time to ask ourselves those questions and overlay that with our theory of change. Why are we even saying that these local teams need to be organizing with the commitment to equity, What is equity scientist organizing really looked like. And so we held some time to really build that, which was so critical because it ultimately served as a compass for when my team of organizers waited through all of the possibilities of things we could look at and measure. And we’re from a science based organization. So you might imagine we are curious souls that want to learn a lot of information and bless rajan their team. They sat with us through it and said, well it sounds like you’re interested in your heart is telling you you need to know all of these things that might have something to do with it. But at the end of the day when we just talked about that compass of what does impact actually look like? What are the most fundamental indicators that you can consistently track that will tell, you will do the real learning of letting you know if you’re making progress or not. And so it was really the process of starting big and messy and then running through all sorts of variations of how we may or may know whether we are in fact grounding equity and inclusion in our teams based organizing and then painstakingly. But we had we built good trust along the way. So that was so critical um narrowed down to core um things that we were going to measure. So we ultimately had two of our six core keep key performance indicators that helped us measure three things, diversity of the team’s inclusive practice of our team leaders and how they are building and running those teams and the members education and engagement in terms of what is explicitly addressing equity or amplifying underrepresented upper underrepresented voices and the issues that we’re working on. And we had to define those throughout the way to be able to measure that. So that was a little bit of the process.

[00:22:06.04] spk_0:
You were able to capture those three Concepts in two Kpi s.

[00:22:46.24] spk_3:
Yeah, we we collected we collected for a few different things. So that is, you know, a number of instances where underrepresented scientists were supported or where partners were grounded in the work that uh some of the team members were um, taking up, uh, that also includes things like number of teams. What is the diversity in the makeup of that team and discuss the actual practices and how you’re running those teams. So we did that through some collection of different survey questions which we can dive into a little bit later. It was an iterative process. I’ll tell you that much.

[00:23:06.94] spk_0:
Yeah, no, I can tell for sure. And and and just for some context, I guess, how does this relate then to um, performance measurement? Like is this, is this is this drill down to individual employees or volunteer? No, I don’t know. It’s volunteers or employees like performance evaluations.

[00:24:23.14] spk_3:
Yes, that’s a good question. This for us is more about impact measurement. Um, and so the reason why we did this all along is to make sure that the data, we’re going to need to collect data about how these local teams are working and building. And it seems fundamental to us to make sure that equity inclusion were part of those because we were talking about this earlier. You manage what you measure, right? And so we needed to make sure that our key performance indicators included equity and inclusion and how we were building out our program. So the whole goal of those indicators are to help us learn as the people, the practitioners and the people who are building out this program are we actually making progress on those things that we are saying we care about and then to hold a space for accountability when we actually have to assess the growth and impact of our program. And then also just finally to invite a culture of learning both for us as staff who are trying to do things differently and for our science network members who are trying to join us in a movement to evolved scientists engagement and advocacy with a stronger equity lens. So it served more of a learning and accountability versus a performance performance evaluation.

[00:24:46.04] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um Alondra, your you wanted to take away, you know, you wanted to learn lessons takeaways like what, what are you hearing as as Daniel is describing this?

[00:27:56.34] spk_2:
Ah what I’m hearing is excitement, right? I’m hearing, I’m hearing alignment. Um uh we, we talk a lot about accountability especially at black. So, so um when you’re thinking about KPI S and I’m something that Daniel said around like you when you’re measuring, like that’s what you’re focusing on, your focusing on what you’re measuring. And so if you’re not measuring something that is a clear kind of like red flag of like if you’re not measuring it, you’re not tracking it, you’re not paying any attention to it. Um and so you’re measuring what really matters. And so it’s an outward depiction of what an organization truly matter, what matters to an organization, look at what they’re tracking and look at what they’re measuring. Um and so as a network B lab and we have all these reports, thousands of people were measuring what matters. But how are we if we’re trying to build an inclusive economic system and business is at the center of that? How do we do that? How do we have conversations with people? I might be an expert in the area. Um and raj talked about his degree and we’ve got we’ve got scientists and I’m not a scientist, right? Ah And so how do we educate people around how to approach their job? A lot of times we have conversations around Jedi and someone will say what you’re the Jedi expert? Like why do I have to do that’s your job? And I say, but it’s not, it’s not. Um we talk about what makes a leader, what makes a good business, what makes a leader someone you want to follow? Um if you’re doing things and how do you make people feel, how do you make other businesses feel? How do you make your community feel right? And so if we are we’re all knowing better and doing better and sharing this information, how do we take this information and have further dialogue around things like our standards are certification requirements? How do we measure what matters? And if we have conversations with our community that helps us understand what are the needs of the most marginalized in order to center in order to think more Jedi forward. We have to always ask ourselves who are the most marginalized. Um who who who are we not thinking about? Who are we creating barriers for a lot of times. We look at the outcomes and what’s gonna happen. But we don’t ask ourselves the question around, have I created a barrier? And more specifically, have I created a barrier for a representation that is traditionally or historically marginalized? And the only way to do that is to ask questions. Right? And so what Daniel said around dialogue. So we’re learning around listening to the community. What are the challenges that organizations are having when they’re trying to approach? Not only their KPI but whenever they’re approaching their supply supply chain, whenever they’re approaching their community communication, whenever they’re working with community, uh what are the challenges that they’re experiencing? Because if we’re looking at that, that is the information that we can use to build more resources, more uh more policies that are actually going to help uh create equitable outcomes. It’s gonna help our tools and our programs and just general accessibility of the work that we do.

[00:28:17.34] spk_0:
So, so Alondra is this is this work that’s going to be um spread among the b corp Among these 4000, you know, be corpse that that they’re going to start to be held 2, 22 Jedi standards, as I don’t mean, I don’t mean tomorrow, but tomorrow’s Saturday. But I don’t mean

[00:28:26.24] spk_2:
monday monday

[00:28:34.34] spk_0:
either. Give yourself some time. But um, this is this is this is this eventually going to be part of b corp I don’t know the approval or

[00:28:37.74] spk_2:
certification,

[00:28:39.02] spk_0:
certification,

[00:30:08.34] spk_2:
certification and verification. Um, so let me clarify so a couple of things we already tracked. So Jedi Jedi and equity bility, um, inclusion. These are already built within our standards. Um, but we are an organization, like many other organizations where trucking along and we’ve been in existence for some time and so, um, what we used to do to measure the past or not the things that we’re going to be able to measure the future as things are growing and as things are changing. So why we have always measured Jedi, why? We’ve always measured things like what’s the difference between your highest paid individual and the organization and the lowest paid individual in the organization. And the farther across that spread is indicates that there’s less equitable ability built into your systems in the organization. So we already looked at things like that. But what we’ve done in this past year is we’re really, really looking at all of our requirements. We’re looking at how we measure what truly matters. And so how do you measure equity? What is, what is that question that we write in the basic impact assessment that is gonna give us the information that we need to track how well an organization is doing identifying those questions if it’s difficult identifying those parameters were global. So it’s not just us, it’s not just Canada, I mean we’re a global network and so we have a lot of things to take into consideration. Jedi is not one size fits all, um, something that one global partner might do might not be suitable in another region of the world. So we are constantly challenged the lab Global with creating standards that are actually going to be not only accessible, but something that’s going to translate across the globe. So that’s why it’s important for us to ask lots of questions ourselves.

[00:33:34.04] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. You’re responsible for donor relationships. What do I mean, I’m talking about keeping relationships strong, moving relationships forward. I’m also talking about when there’s been a solicitation not lettering, not letting, not lettering, not letting that solicitation sit fallow, but you follow up on solicitations right? You never want to have a solicitation hanging out there that looks like you didn’t take the thing seriously to begin with. So it’s your responsibility to keep relationships strong and moving forward with your donors. You do that in ways like remembering milestones, birthdays, anniversaries, uh, the anniversary of their very first gift to the organization. Their 20th gift to your nonprofit, their 50th gift milestones like that. Um, so milestones in their personal lives, but also related to your nonprofit, keeping in touch with just, you know, handwritten notes, phone calls where it’s appropriate. Not every donor wants phone calls. I realized that however they want to be communicated with keeping in touch in those ways, email phone notes. Keeping relationships strong and moving forward. This is your responsibility as the leadership, as the fundraiser, as the board member involved in donor relationships and fundraising. It’s not your donors responsibility to keep in touch with you. It’s your responsibility to keep in touch with your donors. And that’s what I mean by keeping those relationships strong and moving forward. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for measuring equity with Danielle Fox, Alando Williams and raj Aggarwal, Danielle. Let’s talk about leadership by end. I don’t know if, you know, maybe maybe it wasn’t an issue for the the union of concerned scientists ceo necessarily or you know that c c suite level, but there must have been leaders at some at some levels in in U. C. S. That were um, I don’t know at worst, you know, unwilling at best unaware and and and so for either reason, you know, not not accepting what you C. S. Was trying to do. How do you whatever management level we’re talking about? How do you what’s your recommendations for getting that kind of buy in among leadership because it’s it’s essential otherwise this work is going nowhere, you know. So what do you recommend there?

[00:33:37.34] spk_3:
Oh that’s such a good question. I will try

[00:33:39.69] spk_0:
To finally only took 29 minutes. Almost all right.

[00:33:43.25] spk_3:
Yeah. The other ones were no, you’re

[00:33:45.83] spk_0:
suffering a lackluster. There’s no question about it. There’s no question.

[00:33:52.24] spk_3:
I uh I’m happy to to try to take a crack at that. Um and but also I’m really interested with uh with what Yolanda and Roger have that, so if you don’t mind, I’d love to have like that be a team effort. Um

[00:34:05.13] spk_0:
but

[00:34:21.54] spk_3:
but I’d say, you know, there there was no sort of, there was no overt objection to it. It was just more of a sense this understanding that when you want to track when you redefine success and you want to meaningfully track that, that means we’re gonna have to have a hard look at our systems and our status quo of how we usually track and monitor things and to to unpack some of that and potentially to have to change um

[00:34:41.64] spk_0:
what

[00:34:42.02] spk_3:
we’re defining as success and what even systems or tools or capacity we have to be able to then consistently monitor and learn from it. So I would say that it wasn’t, there wasn’t a particular opposition, it was just more of a question of,

[00:34:59.74] spk_2:
well,

[00:37:28.33] spk_3:
what does new success actually look like. Uh and I think for that the approach was more just creating an authentic space for learning that no matter what level you are in an organization of space to ask critical questions together and to relearn and re envision together and have really difficult conversations about what we might need to be doing differently and why that’s important for what contribution we’re trying to have is so fundamental and that it doesn’t from my perspective and maybe this is my personal opinions towards like hierarchy were all at the end of the day, people with different ranges of responsibilities that hopefully if we’re showing up at that meeting and that conversation and good faith want to do better. Um, and so maybe that’s naive of me perhaps, but I think some of it was just creating a lot of spaces without particular judgment, but very honest, candid conversations about um what what’s different, what does success actually look like that needs to look different from how we’ve defined it before and then um what do we need to do as a team to be able to outfit ourselves to authentically monitor that and hold space to check back for whether we’re really um meeting the markers that we have and if we aren’t how we’re willing to adapt. And so maybe this is my own opinion every I’m an organizer at heart. So everything’s a campaign and part of that is a mix of sure pressure, but also persuasion and bringing people on board to join in a collective vision with you and see their role in it. And so I think there’s a lot of conversations along the lines of that and then a lot of conversations about if we’re going to do more of this, what are we going to do less of and having to make difficult decisions about what we prioritize and actually invest in. Uh those were difficult conversations and that is a okay. And so just giving yourself the time to work through that so that when it comes time to start up these key performance indicators and this initiative with equity and inclusion as barometers for progress that we’re all on the same page and were brought in and we know how we’re going to do it.

[00:37:57.13] spk_0:
Well if any of that was naive then I share your naivete. So I don’t think it was, but that’s because I’m with you all right. Uh Irlanda, do you wanna Danielle opened the door? Do you want to talk about? You know what I want to focus on leadership? Leadership buy in for Again, it could be anything from unawareness too. I don’t know. It could be blatant racism and just unwillingness, you know, at the at the extremes. What about leadership by in which again I think is essential to this work.

[00:42:30.50] spk_2:
Well uh it is right, it’s not, there’s no guests, right? Uh leadership buying is absolutely essential. Um And it is going to help drive longer term change and success, but a couple of things that Danielle said makes me think like that. So I’ve had a couple of experiences. I have had a myriad of experiences, I’ve had experiences where your your stuff trying to like you’re back at the business case, right? You’re back at business case. So so for those of us in the in the Jedi, I say look at Danielle Danielle, for those who can’t see, Danielle is vigorously nodding her head. Um the business case. So when Jedi hit the scene, when equity diversity E. D. I hit the scene, um the business case was like a really big thing because when we think about Jedi, it’s really rooted in how people feel the experience that people have or lack thereof, and how those experiences create inequities that can show up in education, obviously in business um in the health care system, you know, pretty much any system that we have with that inequities can can show up in. So what’s important for us to take into consideration, how do we get this by it? And so what we had to do was is we had to make the business case which was a lot of contributed in money, right? We had to say this is this is relevant to a business because businesses that are diverse that have diversity of thought, not just the color of someone’s skin, diversity of thought, thrive, They do better. And there’s years of evidence for that. Um so long before we really were having conversations about inclusion and justice and how people feel we were having conversations around your business should do this and it’s worthwhile for your business because you will get a return on your investment financially. Um, and I love the fact that we’re kind of shifting away from that and uh I’m having a lot less of those conversations and a lot more conversations of I know that there’s a problem. I recognize that something must be done. I have no clue where to start or I know that there’s a problem. I just don’t see it, help me learn how to see it and in that work it’s very, very difficult and it takes a long time. And so I’m lucky that in my current experiences I have with leaders that that know that there’s a problem and want to do something about it. But the struggle sometimes is what one thinks is the solution to the problem is not the solution to the problem. So what I see happens is you get the buy in. Sometimes you might have an organization where you have buy in from leadership. However, when you talk about what the actual solutions are, that’s when there is discrepancies, there’s discrepancies on whether or not we can actually solve this problem by by enacting that solution. And so we have to have a lot of conversations around resources and for me, I’m able to really elevate vision right, what is the vision of your organization? So I could ask that all the time. Staff say how I would love for my organization to put E. D. I first right to elevate equity. What is the conversation that I need to have with my manager, with my boss, with my supervisor, with leadership? How do we have this conversation? And I really challenge you to kind of like look at the vision and I’m encouraging those who really feel like they want to be a part of organizations that are putting this type of work forward. Take a look at the vision of the organization that you work at. We have an inclusive equitable regenerative system. So I was able to say if we want to do this work, we have to think about equity, but we have to take into consideration if we know that we’re not only going to get a return on our investment are people are going to feel better. They’re going to want to be here. They’re going to um, feel valued being here. You don’t have to work your employees to the bone to get dedication from them and treating them like human beings is how you’re actually going to be able to work together to create not only solutions but a space where everyone can show up as their true, authentic selves and feel good about being at work. Um, and we’re not there yet. You know, we’re not there were not there at the lab right? We still have these challenges internal to our organizations. Just like other organizations.

[00:43:03.80] spk_0:
I am gratified that you’re having fewer conversations that are based around money. You know, bottom line, that’s, that’s encouraging in the end it is all it is all about the bottom line but that you’re having fewer conversations that are rooted in that, you know, that are, that are explicitly about why it’s better for your, you know, how it will help your bottom line um, Raj. I’m only turning to you because Danielle suggested that you might want to comment on this. So uh would you, would you like to on the, on the buy in? We just have about 10 minutes left or so.

[00:43:18.30] spk_1:
I don’t have anything more to add than what these folks do.

[00:43:22.05] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:43:22.68] spk_1:
I did share though, Danielle with Lane frisco and Denise done. Um how happy it makes me here? How happy it makes me to hear you share this in this way. So thank you so much.

[00:43:35.90] spk_2:
Oh,

[00:43:36.50] spk_0:
you’re thanking me.

[00:43:37.80] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m always thinking tony and I’m thinking Danielle and of course dr Williams all the time.

[00:43:54.20] spk_0:
Yeah. Well, these voices, right, the conversation needs to be elevated and I can help deliver it to another 13,000 folks. So, um Yolanda, I have a question um, I am, I am, I am, I am I because you’re the Director of, of Justice Equity diversity inclusion. I am. I am I to 2019 If I refer to D e I

[00:44:07.89] spk_2:
am

[00:44:08.83] spk_0:
I am I if I’m if I’m three years old, if I’m living in the past. Tell me and I’m asking you d i is what it used to be. But now I see Jedi more, I see Jedi emerging, I know

[00:46:07.58] spk_2:
are you 2 2019? Ah that’s that’s a lot of pressure to put on. Maybe you’re not there and you’re jeremy Tony and I respect that. But I will say I will encourage folks that are still really focusing on like, quick. The fastest Jedi training that I ever can give right is um, the justice aspect is is really, really important because it takes into consideration where we are, And it’s really difficult for us to look at how the existence of things as they are right now in 2022 without paying homage and respect to the fact that there is a very specific reason why we are facing the inequity that we face today. And so it’s important for us to bring that element to the conversation, because then we can say the reason there’s a really good reason why we need to have a conversation with our HR department about whether or not this level to position needs to have a bachelor’s degree, and that is that role actually necessary? Or have we are we a product of a of a society that folks of privilege and power decided what was necessary in order to be able to succeed again defining what that success looks like. And so we are just perpetuating that same ideology, even though we know that’s not true, and so how do we really root equity diversity and inclusion in in, you know, in a way that allows us to change from the way things used to be with recognizing that it’s not going to get us to where we want to go. So that’s why justice is a really key component. But again, some folks aren’t there in their, in their Jedi journey. Um, and I aspire okay,

[00:46:43.58] spk_0:
well, and I regret that I personalized it. I got, but I was thinking, I was thinking to myself, but you know, because I don’t mean to put pressure for Jedi, I love Jedi Jedi warrior. You could be a Jedi warrior. Um, yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, let’s see Danielle, why don’t you, why don’t you leave us with some, uh, inspiration if you like or something that you think we haven’t talked about yet doesn’t have, doesn’t have to be, uh, doesn’t have to be grand inspiration. Maybe just something that we haven’t talked about yet that you’d like folks to know about, uh, this work, this journey that that you see us went through. I’m gonna give you the chance to, uh, to leave us.

[00:48:52.87] spk_3:
Sure, you know, it, this is gonna sound a little atypical, but I think the for me, what’s been inspiring is that we’ve already learned, What isn’t working from what we did with provoke. Don’t take that personal rush. I mean, that is a wonderful wonderful thing because what weird doing is we’ve built in an invitation to ourselves as I would invite our advocates and any other organization that um is questioning whether they um have the knowledge or expertise to deepen equity and justice in their work and have to measure that. Um I think we’re a perfect example of organization that doesn’t have a deep expertise in this, but still wants to do it and is trying to do it, had built out something that I think really has helped ground us to be able to see how we need to keep improving. Um and that, for me is uh pretty inspiring because Ellen and I were talking a little bit about this before very often this can feel like an such a high stakes topic that can sometimes paralyze people from investing in it in taking steps. And I think the inspiring thing here is we’re already learning in the first couple of years of using these KPI s ways we can organize the local teams to to be a little bit better and more thoughtful in justice and equity, and we’re also learning that um there’s opportunities to reiterate and and strengthen our key P. I. S. That is an invitation for more learning and accountability, and for me that’s pretty, pretty exciting because this is ongoing work. I don’t think there’s gonna be a year that you see us as check we are an anti racist organization, it’s going to be ongoing work, and that’s exciting.

[00:49:21.27] spk_0:
Perfect inspiration. Thank you. And I realized that uh I made a mistake, Yolanda, I’m gonna let you take us out because B Lab, the lab is in this for takeaways. What what you what you can share with your your your 4000 certified companies. So you take us out with some with some takeaways.

[00:50:59.06] spk_2:
I love that. Um don’t let perfection be in the way of doing something right. Doing doing nothing is never good enough. So I love what Danielle said about a moving target as well. Um lean into uncomfortable that we don’t know what a utopian world looks like. We do not know what an equitable world looks like. We don’t know we haven’t had it yet. That’s the beauty and all of this is like we can imagine whatever we want and so be a part of what the new normal looks like. Step up and take apart to stake your claim because we’ve all we are all a product of of systems that were created before we got here. We are in a unique juncture in society in history that we can take a part in what success and the new normal books like moving forward and we can create systems that actually are inclusive for everyone that allow everyone to succeed regardless of where they were born, what they looked like, their social and economic status, um sexual orientation. We have a weird and unique space that as our leadership and when I say leadership, I’m not just talking about organizational leadership, I’m talking about in the world humans and and society members who have been a part of making decisions for a long period of time. That shift of power and influence is shifting and we’re all getting apart and we and so this is a unique opportunity, don’t squander your opportunity to be a part of something different for your Children, for our future for youth. Um we get one shot. Um and and this is gonna be, this is gonna be shaped the next 500 years of society. And so I want to take, I want to encourage everyone to kind of step up to the plate and and take ownership of your part in what the future’s gonna look like for others.

[00:51:45.46] spk_0:
Perfect, thank you. That’s Alando Williams, Director of justice, Equity, diversity and inclusion at B lab, also Daniel Fox Campaign and Science Network Manager, the union of concerned scientists and the other person around was is raj Aggarwal, president of provoke who asked me to not focus on him too much. So I took him at his word. I assume he was. I assume he was honest when he’s when he made that recommendation, made that made that request, I should say so.

[00:51:50.41] spk_1:
tony what do you think? Don’t you think it was better to focus on Dr Williams and Danielle.

[00:52:03.35] spk_0:
I do, but I’m I’m disappointed that you didn’t expect me to do that anyway. So little faith after the third time on the show and still still thinks I’m an underperformer. Thank

[00:52:10.62] spk_2:
you like I know how to do my job and I didn’t, I didn’t need you, but thank you, thank you. All right,

[00:52:31.55] spk_0:
maybe the fourth time if there is 1/4 for you, I’m not sure I would say anybody wants to be on nonprofit. radio Uh, don’t partner with Raj in 2023 because you’re greatly reducing the likelihood of being of being selected. Uh, Alondra Danielle raj, thank you very much.

[00:52:34.42] spk_1:
tony it was really nice when we received your emails, valuable

[00:52:43.75] spk_0:
conversation, I appreciate it and appreciate you all for being good sports to while I uh, make fun of raj, especially

[00:52:49.43] spk_3:
thank you

[00:54:07.05] spk_0:
and thanks to all of you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22. Ntc the 2022 nonprofit technology conference with the hope that we will be together in person in 2023 in denver colorado. Thanks so much for being with us Next week. More from 22. NTCC asking for receiving and giving feedback if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great. Mhm mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for September 20, 2021: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

My Guest:

Pratichi Shah: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

Starting with your people, your culture and your leadership, how do you identify, talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your nonprofit? My guest is Pratichi Shah, founder & CEO at Flourish Talent Management Solutions. (Originally aired 7/8/20)

 

 

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[00:01:54.44] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of chiari malformation if you pushed down on me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. You’re dismantling racism journey, starting with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you identify? Talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your non profit My guest is pretty itchy Shah, founder and Ceo at flourish Talent management Solutions. This originally aired July 8, 2020 Antonis take two planned giving in the pandemic era. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is you’re dismantling racism journey. It’s a real pleasure to welcome welcome. I’m not welcoming. I’m welcoming. I’m welcoming party Sheesha. She’s an HR strategist and thought leader with 25 years experience in all aspects of talent management. She’s making a face when I say 25 years human resources equity and inclusion and organizational development in the nonprofit and for profit arenas. She is founder and Ceo of flourish Talent management solutions. The company is at flourish tMS dot com Prodigy. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:56.44] spk_0:
Thank you so much. tony I appreciate being

[00:01:59.53] spk_1:
here. It’s a pleasure pleasure to have you. Um, and I’d like to jump right in if you’re if you’re ready um

[00:02:06.26] spk_0:
absolutely

[00:02:42.14] spk_1:
you know um racism and white privilege most often look very Benign on their face, I had a guest explain why use of the word professional in a job description is racist. I had a more recently I had a guest explain how not listening a salary range in a job description was felt racist to them. So how do we begin to uncover what is inequitable and right under our noses yet not visible on its

[00:02:45.54] spk_0:
face? Yeah. You know what often it starts with listening to state state a bit of the obvious. It really does started listening. It’s understanding for organizations. It’s understanding where we are. Um so it’s listening to the voices that may not have been centered. We’ve become better as organizations and being responsive to staff. I hear that a lot kind of hey this is what my staff is telling me. This is what we need to do. But the question is, are you responding to the voices that have possibly been marginalized? Likely been marginalized or oppressed in the past? General responsiveness is not the same as centering the voices that really need to be heard. So it’s first off just understanding where you are as an organization and listening to the people who may have experienced organization in a way that is different than you think.

[00:03:36.21] spk_1:
So when you say general responsiveness is not what not adequate, not what we’re looking for. What do you mean by that?

[00:04:35.54] spk_0:
So a lot of time the voices that are saying, hey something’s wrong or we need to do this or we need to do that are not the voices of those that have been marginalized and oppressed. They tend to be maybe the loudest voices they’re speaking maybe from a place of privilege and that needs to be taken into account. So being responsive, for instance, if the I call it kind of the almond milk issue being responsive to a staff that says in addition to dairy milk for coffee, this is back when we were in fiscal offices, um, we need almond milk to, but the question is is are we listening to the voices of those that weren’t able to consume the dairy milk? It’s not a perfect metaphor. It’s not a perfect analogy because that one ignores actual pain and it just talks about preference. But are we listening to the voices of people that have been impressed? Who have who have been, who have heard the word professional or professionalism wielded against them as a as an obstacle in their path to success in their path to career advancement. Those are the voices that we need to listen to, not the ones who have a preference for one thing or another.

[00:04:54.34] spk_1:
Okay, uh, let’s be explicit about how we identify who, who holds these voices? Who are these people?

[00:05:30.04] spk_0:
It’s people that have come from, it’s particularly right now when we talk about anti black racism, we need to center the voices of those from the black community. And that means those who have either, maybe not joined, not just not joined our organization for particular reasons, but maybe they have not joined our board, Maybe they have not participated in our programs, maybe they haven’t had the chance to. So it’s really from an organizational perspective, think of it as understanding what our current state is. So how does your organization move people up? Move people in, move people out if we don’t have the voices in the first place? Because maybe we’re not as welcoming as we should be, then what does the data tell us about? Who’s coming into our organization? Who is leaving our organization, Who is able to move up into our organization, what our leadership looks like, what our board looks like. So at times the fact that there is an absence of voice is telling in and of itself and our data needs to be able to explain what is going on. So that data needs to be looked at as well.

[00:06:38.64] spk_1:
So we need to very well, good chance we need to look outside our organization. You’re talking about people that we’ve turned down for board board positions, turned down for employment. Um, I’m not even gonna say turned down for promotion because that would presume that there’s still that that presumes are still in the organization, but I’m talking about, very likely going outside the organization. People who don’t work with us, who aren’t volunteering, who aren’t supporting us in any way, but we’ve marginalise them? We’ve cast them out before they even had a chance to get in?

[00:06:42.28] spk_0:
Potentially. Yeah, actually, probably, probably there is something that they have not found palatable or appealing about working with us or being a sensor or being uh, to your point of volunteer. So we need we need to look at why that’s happening.

[00:07:22.54] spk_1:
Okay. I’ve got to I got to drill down even further. How are we going to identify these people within within our organization as it is? How are we gonna figure out which people these are that we’ve marginalized these voices of color over the let’s just pick like in the past five years, what have we? Well, if we’ve done this, how do we identify the people? We’ve done it too.

[00:07:42.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a really it’s a complicated question. It will differ by organization, right? It differs by what your subsector is, how things flow within a subsector, the size of the organization. A really good place to start is understanding who has turned us down. Why have people left? So take a look at exit interviews. Even if you’re not doing exit interviews, we know that there is not always uh HR presence in a lot of our organizations. If there aren’t formal exit interviews. First of all, let’s make time for those because we need to understand why people are leaving. Um but if there isn’t a formal HR presence, what do we know about the circumstances under which someone left organization or said no to a job offer or said no to a board position or volunteer. It’s also important to ask, expanding our definition of stakeholder groups, engaging with all of our stakeholder groups as broadly defined as possible. And within those groups, understanding are we reaching out to a diverse audience to say why would you engage with us? Why would you not engage with us in any of those roles? So, yeah, it’s going to be a little bit harder to understand that people who are not there because they’re not there.

[00:08:51.84] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So all right. Um we go through this exercise and and we identify we we’ve identified a dozen people. They’re not they’re not currently connected to us. And uh it may be that they have had a bad experience with us. Yeah, I think they may have turned us down for employment because they got offered more money somewhere else. Um That could that in itself could be

[00:09:03.60] spk_0:
Alright, let’s

[00:09:57.24] spk_1:
that in itself could be uh not something other than benign. Um But let’s say they moved out of the state, you know, they were they were thinking about so so in some cases they may not have a bad have had a bad experience with us, but in but in lots of cases they may have they may have turned down that board position because they saw the current composition of the board and they didn’t feel they felt like, uh maybe being an offer a token slot or whatever, whatever it might be. I’m just, I’m just suggesting that some of the, some of the feelings toward the organization might not be negative, but some might very well be negative. Of the dozen people we’ve identified in all these different stakeholder, potential stakeholder roles that they could have had. Um, what do we reach out to them and say, how do we, how do we get them to join a conversation with an organization that they may feel unwelcome him?

[00:10:15.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And I think right now, especially we tried carefully. Um, we tried carefully and we honor the fact that they in fact might be getting that same question from many other other organizations, friends, colleagues, family members, in which people want to understand something, What we’re seeking to do is not be educated on the overall picture of white privilege, white supremacy of dominant narrative and dominant culture. That’s on us, that’s on all of us individually to understand that, that is not the, that is not up to the member of society, tell us that. Right? So what, what we want to understand is kind of, what did you experience with our organization? What was the good? What was the bad and first of all, do you even want to engage with us, Is this not a good time to do that because they’re already exhausted. I said to a colleague recently, you know, we can’t even understand the reality of what it’s like to live the right to live that reality and for many to lead the charge, right? Because they’re also showing leadership in the movement. So to we can’t even understand what those layers of existence or like. So I think it’s treading very carefully and should we have the ability to engage with someone because they have the space, the energy, the desire then I think it’s understanding and asking kind of what’s going on for us? What where did you find us either not appealing or where did you? Why did you not want to work with us in whatever capacity we were asking and it’s asking that question.

[00:11:34.80] spk_1:
Okay, well that’s further down, right? I’m just trying to get to like what’s the initial email invitation look like?

[00:11:54.24] spk_0:
It depends on the organization. It depends on the organization. It depends on the relationship. I wouldn’t presume to give words to that to be honest with you because because I think it also depends on the person that you’re asking. I don’t want to offer kind of a blanket response and inadvertently tokenize people by saying, oh, of course they’re going to want to engage with us. So I really think it’s dependent on the situation

[00:12:56.34] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you want to hone your message? Turn to, we’ll work with you to find your core message and make it concise simple for the world to grasp. So that as they get you placed in major media, like you’ve heard me name, and also in podcasts in blogs, at conferences, on op ed pages. Your message, your voice will resonate. They’ll help you hone your message, find your voice and get it heard. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to your dismantling racism journey. What are you inviting them to do with you? Have a conversation, share your experience with us, Is it?

[00:13:44.14] spk_0:
Yes, essentially. I mean, that’s what it boils down to. But again, it really depends on what the organization is, Right? So this is your data collection moment. This is information collection. Where else are you collecting information? What what else do you know? What other steps have you taken to begin that educational process? Because there’s there’s kind of a dual purpose here, right? Is understanding who we are in, where we have contributed to structural racism, to pretend to a culture that does not support differing viewpoints, differing populations. That is in some ways upholding white supremacy or is completely holding upholding white supremacy and its culture. There’s that general education of understanding all of that, and then there’s understanding what our organization’s role is, right? So it’s both. And um, so it’s really highly dependent upon where is the organization? Uh case for us, who you’ve talked to? The head of Equity in the centre describes a cycle that is brilliant. Um around awake to woke to work. Where are you in that cycle? Are you? Where are you on? Um Where are you? And being pluralistic? Where are you? And being inclusive? All of those things depend on what you’ll ask and how you’ll reach out and if you even should reach out there maybe work that has to be done internally before that reach out can happen again. Just being considerate and sensitive of those who are willing to talk

[00:14:35.34] spk_1:
to you. Yeah. Okay. Was our guest for the last uh most recent special episode on this exact same subject. Thank you.

[00:14:37.78] spk_0:
Yeah. The organization is doing has been since its inception has been doing incredible work. K is leading that work um and both her words always contained wisdom and the products that they put out are extraordinary.

[00:15:09.44] spk_1:
How about in your work are you facilitating the kinds of conversations in your practice that you and I are talking about right now? Do you do you bring these outside folks in sometimes to to have these conversations

[00:15:53.24] spk_0:
sometimes? Yeah. Sometimes again being highly respectful of if they didn’t want to engage with us? Do they even want to talk to us right now. My work really is around um having an organization understand where it is right now. So what is its current state? What is the desire and future state? Right, so we know that we want to be a racially inclusive racially equitable organization likely that’s already been defined. But what does that mean for us as an organization If it means solely in numbers piece Right? Like we want to be more divorces aboard. Okay, that’s fine. But beyond that, how will we make ourselves have a board culture that is appealing to those people that we want to bring in to work with us? So it’s kind of defining both current state and understanding current state, defining future state and then developing the strategy to get there.

[00:16:09.14] spk_1:
Ok. And now you and I are talking about, you said, you know, we’re still data gathering. So we’re still defining the current culture as it exists. Right. Okay. Okay. And your work, you you centered around people. Culture and leadership.

[00:16:20.64] spk_0:
Mhm.

[00:16:24.34] spk_1:
Can we focus on leadership? I feel like everything trickles down from there.

[00:16:26.66] spk_0:
Very true.

[00:16:28.74] spk_1:
I don’t know. Are we okay? Are you okay starting with a leadership conversation or you’d rather start somewhere else?

[00:16:35.46] spk_0:
No, we can we can start that. That’s absolutely fine.

[00:16:48.84] spk_1:
Okay. Um so what what is it we’re looking for? Leaders of our listeners are small and midsize nonprofits to to commit you.

[00:16:54.74] spk_0:
I think it’s first of all committing to their own learning and and not relying on communities of color to provide that learning. Right? Again, going back to what we said earlier, it’s not relying on those who have been harmed or oppressed to provide the learning. So first of all, it’s an individual attorney that’s a given. Okay,

[00:17:25.14] spk_1:
can I like to, I like things like people. I like action steps. Okay, so when we’re talking about our individual journey, our own learning, I mean I’ve been doing some of this recently by watching Youtube, watching, um, focus on Youtube of course. Now now I can’t remember the names of people, but

[00:17:30.43] spk_0:
no Eddie Glaude.

[00:17:53.54] spk_1:
Um, so Eddie Glaude is a commentator on MSNBC. Uh, he’s just written a just released this last week a biography. Well, not so much a biography of James baldwin, but an explanation of baldwin’s journey around racism. Um, so that’s one example of, you know, who have been listening to? So we’re, so we’re talking about educating like learning from thought leaders around Yeah, privilege structures. Were reading books, listening to podcasts.

[00:18:00.12] spk_0:
Absolutely. It’s around, it’s around structures, but it’s also understanding things that we do all the time and organizations and how I as a leader might perpetuate those, right? So it’s sometimes the use of language to your point about the use of the word professional. Um, language tends to create our reality. So, and either language will build a bridge or not. So how do we use our language? How do we use our descriptors. How do I show up as a leader? Um, in my own kind of inclusion or not. So I think it is absolutely that is looking at thought leaders around things like structural racism around the use of language around people’s individual experiences to get that insight and depth because it’s not just an intellectual exercise. This is emotional too. And therefore has to have emotional resonance.

[00:18:51.24] spk_1:
Okay, thank you for letting me dive deeper into what

[00:18:55.21] spk_0:
Absolutely

[00:18:56.26] spk_1:
talk about personal, you know, your own personal journey, your own personal education, uh, fact finding and introspection. You’re talking about something, you know, and it’s no, no revelation. This is it’s

[00:19:09.42] spk_0:
difficult. If it’s painful.

[00:19:31.54] spk_1:
You know, you you’re very likely uncovering how you offended someone, uh, how you offended a group. Um, if you were, you know, speaking in public and something comes to mind or how you offended someone in meetings or, you know, multiplied. I don’t know how many times. I mean, this introspection is likely painful,

[00:19:39.44] spk_0:
likely likely. Yeah, more often, more often than not, I can’t I can’t really envision it not at some level being painful,

[00:19:43.27] spk_1:
but you’ve caused pain, you know, and there’s a recognition there.

[00:19:46.92] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:19:53.24] spk_1:
painful for you. But let’s consider the pain of the person or the group that

[00:19:54.35] spk_0:
you

[00:19:58.54] spk_1:
I don’t know offended, stereotyped. Mean, put off whatever it is, you’re

[00:20:01.84] spk_0:
that’s right. And that that’s why the work as much as I know, you know, to some degree, people want this to be work. That can be kind of project managed if you will or it can be put into a process or a series of best practices or

[00:20:14.08] spk_1:
benchmarks

[00:20:15.64] spk_0:
to some degree, not very much, but to some degree. Yes, absolutely. The some a little bit of that can happen, but that in and of itself is a bit of the dominant narrative, right? That in and of itself is kind of that that centering white culture. So I think what we need to understand is this is not just going to be again to sorry to be redundant, but it’s not just going to be intellectual.

[00:20:38.41] spk_1:
The

[00:20:39.04] spk_0:
fact that pain has been caused dictates that this be emotionally owned as well. It can’t be arm’s length. It can’t be just intellectually owned with the project plan that I keep over here on a chalkboard or something like that.

[00:21:02.64] spk_1:
Emotionally owned. Yeah. Thank you. All right. All right. So I made you digress and deepen what else, what else you wanna tell us about leadership’s commitment and and and the importance of leadership, commitment.

[00:23:24.54] spk_0:
Yeah. So it needs to be explicit. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be baked into the leadership. Whatever leadership structure the organization has, it needs to be an ongoing piece of that leadership. So it’s not a hey, let’s touch base on our quote inclusion initiative if it’s an initiative first of all, that’s not really doing the work anyway. Um, but it’s not something that lives separately from ourselves. Let’s have HR kind of check in on this or let’s have the operations person check in on this. That’s that’s not what this is about. It’s really, it’s authentically being owned by leadership to say? Yeah, I know it’s gonna be painful. And in looking at our organization, we’re gonna need to understand why our leadership is remarkably homogeneous. Which in the case of many nonprofits, it is if you take a look at Building Movement project and the unbelievably great work that they’ve done twice now, they just put out an update to their leadership work around how people move through the sector or don’t and how people, communities of color and people of color are represented in our leadership. We can begin to understand that by and large, they’re they’re not. Um though i that is an oversimplification in some ways. So I would encourage people to go to building movement project’s website and check out their work. Um but you know what, why are we so homogeneous? Why is there a board so homogeneous? It’s also unpacking and uncovering that. So to your point earlier about, you know, how do we look at people and how they move through the organization? This is where you look at who is present, right? Not just who’s not with us, but who is with us? How do people get Promoted? How does that system work does any does everyone have the same information? Is it a case of unwritten rules, is it a case of some people move up because they’re similar or they have 10 years of experience, which is something that we like to say, How do you get 10 years of experience if you have not been given those chances to begin with. So is their life experience that we can that we can begin to integrate in our conversations because life experience is equally valuable. Are we putting too much of a premium on higher education education and its formal kind of traditional form? Are we putting too much of uh of an emphasis on pedigree of other kinds of those? Those are the things that ultimately keep people out. So taking a look at leadership and having leadership commitment ultimately means looking at all of those things. There’s an overlap and how we look at leadership or people and or organizational culture.

[00:23:46.14] spk_1:
Yeah, of course. This is a it’s a continuum or

[00:23:48.53] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely. And the areas bleed into each other.

[00:24:10.04] spk_1:
Yeah, of course. Um and you know, I subsumed in all this I guess. I mean it’s okay for leaders to say, I don’t know where the where the journey is going, I don’t know what we’re going to uncover, but I’m committed to having this journey and leading it and and right. I mean, supporting it, but I don’t know what we’re gonna find. Right.

[00:24:16.74] spk_0:
Right, right. And that in and of itself can be uncomfortable for a lot of people and that’s that’s the kind of discomfort we need to get okay with.

[00:24:30.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Alright. Yeah. You know I had I had a guest explained that this is not as you were alluding to? Uh it’s not the kind of thing that you know, we’re gonna have a weekly meeting and will be these outcomes at the end of every meeting then we’ll have this list of activities and you know the you know, how come it’s not like that? How come we can’t do it like that?

[00:25:02.24] spk_0:
Yeah. Because we’re dealing with hundreds and hundreds of years of history and it’s because we haven’t been inclusive in the ways that we do things and we haven’t allowed whole selves to show up that it is um It’s it’s complicated and it’s messy because it’s human.

[00:25:05.74] spk_1:
All right, so it’s not gonna be as simple as our budget meetings

[00:25:08.84] spk_0:
today. Right. Absolutely different. Different kind of

[00:25:13.26] spk_1:
hard. Alright. We’re going to have an outcome at every at every juncture at every step or every week or every month or something. Yeah.

[00:25:19.48] spk_0:
That’s right. That’s right. And if we expect it to go that way, we are likely going to give ourselves excuses not to press on.

[00:27:00.64] spk_1:
It’s time for tony state too planned giving in the pandemic era. That’s my webinar coming up. I’m hosted for it by J. M. T. Consulting. Very grateful to them for hosting. We’re doing this on Thursday, September 30, 2 to 3 o’clock Eastern time planned. Giving in the pandemic era. So what am I going to talk about, what is planned? Giving? We’ve got to start with that right. What this thing is who your best prospects are? Where to start your program and the overarching. How does this all fit into our pandemic era? So I hope you’ll be with me to uh reserve your spot. It’s free. It’s a free webinar now by the way. But you do have to make a reservation. So to do that, you go to J. M. T. Consulting dot com Juliet mike, tango, J. M. T. Consulting dot com. Go to events and then pull down to lackluster speaker series and I’ll be the sole person listed there. They have an expert speaker series. That’s for everybody else. But now you have to actually uh, they were gracious enough to uh, not only host me but uh lump me in with the the expert speakers. So you do have to go to expert speaker series and you’ll find me right there. So I hope you’ll be with me Thursday September 30 two o’clock eastern

[00:27:02.44] spk_0:
for

[00:27:18.24] spk_1:
planned giving in the pandemic era. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for your dismantling racism journey. All right. So that’s what it’s not what what does it look like.

[00:28:42.04] spk_0:
Oh, it absolutely looks different for every organization. It absolutely looks different for every organization and that’s what’s so critical to understand. Kind of, where are we right now? Um, where are we? As far as all of the components of our organization. Right. So volatile again, volunteers ford staff culture. You said, you know, we were talking about people organization and leadership which is obviously a lot of my work. Um it is getting underneath all of those kinds of things to say. So who experiences our culture? How? Um so we do engagement surveys, Right. A lot of times we do engagement employee surveys, that kind of thing. Are we looking at those disagreeing disaggregated way? Are we asking different populations to identify themselves? And are we looking at what the experiences are by population? Are we asking explicit questions around whether or not you feel like you can be yourself in this organization, Whether you can provide dissenting opinions, whether you feel comfortable approaching your boss with feedback. Um whether you feel comfortable volunteering for particular work, whether you feel like you understand what a promotion or performance management processes, whether you get the support that you need or to what extent you get support that you need either from colleagues, boss leadership etcetera. So it’s looking at all of those things and then understanding are they being experienced differently by different communities within our organization.

[00:28:52.54] spk_1:
You mentioned disaggregate ng. That’s where the data is not helpful. Right?

[00:28:53.54] spk_0:
That is where we look at the data in terms of populations.

[00:28:57.94] spk_1:
Oh, Oh, aggregate, of course. Aggregating. I’m sorry.

[00:29:01.32] spk_0:
That’s OK.

[00:29:02.24] spk_1:
You’re stuck with a lackluster host. No, of course, yes. Aggregating

[00:29:06.02] spk_0:
early in the week.

[00:29:22.74] spk_1:
Uh Thank you. You couldn’t say early in the day, but thank you for being gracious. Okay. Yes. We uh we we want to disaggregate of course. Um and look by population and I guess cut a different way. I mean depending on the size of the organization. Um Age, race, age,

[00:29:26.74] spk_0:
race, ethnicity, um A physical ability, orientation. All of those need to be in the mix gender as well, including gender fluidity. So really looking at all of our populations and then understanding for these particular questions, is there a difference and how people experience our organization? We know then what we do know is that if there is a difference that there is a difference, we don’t know that there is causality unless there unless you’ve asked questions that might begin to illuminate that, right? But there’s always that difference between correlation and causality and then what you want to do is get underneath that to understand why the experience might be different and why it might change along lines of gender or race or ethnicity or orientation or physical ability.

[00:30:19.04] spk_1:
We uh we wandered, you know? But that’s that’s fine.

[00:30:22.60] spk_0:
I love it’s all part of the people in organization part

[00:30:31.84] spk_1:
people culture and um and leadership all coming together. Um uh Where do you want to go? Uh I mean I would like to talk about people. Culture and leadership. What’s a good what’s a good next one?

[00:32:30.34] spk_0:
Yes. Well, so this is what you’re doing, right? Is your collecting information and all of those three areas. Right and wanted. So a couple of things that I would add to that is when you look at people, you’re looking at their experiences, when you look at leadership, you’re looking at commitment makeup, structure, access, all of those kinds of things. When you’re looking at culture, you’re looking at how people experience the culture, right? And so what is happening? What’s not happening with stated out loud? What’s not stated out loud? What are the unwritten rules? There is also the piece that forms all of these things, which is operational systems. Right? So things like performance management, things like um where people may sit back when we were in physical offices, having access to technology, all of those kinds of things, particularly important now that we’re not in physical offices, so does everyone have access to the technology and information necessary to do their job, to do their jobs to do their work? So it is looking also at your operational side and saying how do we live our operational life? How do, how do people experience it, who do we engage with to provide services for our operations? How do we provide the services if you will, for lack of better term to our employees? So it’s also looking at that because operations ultimately permeates organizational culture, people and leadership, right? Because it kind of sustains all of that. So taking a look at that too. And finally, I would suggest again as part of this and as a wraparound is, what is the internal external alignment? Right. So I often hear people say, hey, you know what, this is the subsector we work in, people would think that we’re really equitable, but internally we are living a different life than what we are putting out to our stakeholders in our constituencies externally. So what is what is our external life and how does that need to inform our internal world? It’s not unusual for me to hear that the external life, the way we engage with stakeholders or the way we put out program programmatic work is actually may be further along to the extent that this is considered to be a continuum. It’s further along than the way that we’re living our life. Internal life

[00:32:53.10] spk_1:
dishonesty there disconnect that

[00:32:56.54] spk_0:
there’s a disconnect disconnect for sure. And possibly yeah, dishonesty. And hip hop, maybe even hypocrisy.

[00:33:09.04] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Alright, but again, all right, so now we’re looking like this is organizational introspection. There’s there’s individual learning and introspection. Now we’re at the organizational

[00:33:14.34] spk_0:
level, being

[00:33:15.78] spk_1:
honest with our, with our culture and our messaging,

[00:33:19.84] spk_0:
right? And and so what I tried to do is to help organizations kind of look at those things and decide how we might evolve, given the future that we’ve set our sights on and given some of the principles that we’ve laid out, how do we kind of get there? How do we, how do we evolve our systems, how do we evolve our people practices? How do we evolve our culture? So hence the need to look at all of these things that centered around people, Culture and leadership.

[00:34:07.54] spk_1:
What about the use of professional facilitator? Because well, first of all, there’s a body of expertise that someone like you brings uh but also help with these difficult conversations. Talk about the value of having an expert facilitator.

[00:35:20.54] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. So so you know, I think I think there’s always a level of objectivity and and kind of an inside look by an outsider that you that you benefit from. We go to experts for everything from, you know, our health to the extent that we have access to those experts, which is a whole different conversation on race and oppression. Um we we want that external voice. What I would say is it’s likely not going to be the same expert or the same facilitator and I say expert in quotes um for everything. So for instance, I am not the voice to be centred on educating an organization around structural racism. I don’t think I’m the right voice to be centered. I would rather send her voices like those at um race forward at equity in the center at those who have lived the results of 400 years of oppression. So you might want to call in someone for that discussion for that education. There are people that are better and more steeped in that and whose voices should absolutely be centered for that? Um You might want to call in a voice for White Ally ship because there is some specifics around that that we need to talk about without kind of centering White voices.

[00:35:27.85] spk_1:
I’m sorry White Ally ship.

[00:35:29.92] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:35:30.46] spk_1:
What is that?

[00:36:50.63] spk_0:
So if we think about the the organization right in our kind of culture and are people who who wants to half sees themselves as an ally and how can they be good? How can how can white people be good allies? Right. And how do we further and embed that in the culture? Um and then finally, so keeping that in mind that there are going to be different experts or different facilitators for different things, you know, who is going to be the person in my case, this actually might be is to help us evolve our culture and our systems so that we can be more equitable and take a look at that. Who’s going to provide the training because their skills necessary. Right to have these conversations. There are foundational communication skills, there is the ability to give feedback. Um there is the ability to communicate across cultures across genders across across groups. There is ability to be collaborative. So so also strengthening those skills while we continue to look at those things, but to think that all of this help is going to come from one source is not ideal and likely it’s even inappropriate because everyone can’t be everything. I don’t try to be the voices that I can’t be. It’s inappropriate for me to do that. Mhm.

[00:36:54.73] spk_1:
What what else do you want to, what do you want to talk about given the level where that we’re at? We’re trying to help small and midsize nonprofits inaugurate a journey around racism and white privilege.

[00:38:42.82] spk_0:
I think. I mean, look, first of all, I hear a lot of organizations say like what what is the access point? Like what do I get started doing? We put out a statement um in some cases we are experiencing some dissonance between the statement that we put out or the programmatic work that we do and the way that we’re living internally. So it is really understanding kind of where are we now, through all of the ways that we’ve been talking about over the last several minutes, where are we now? What is it that we’re not doing that we should be doing? What is it that we need to be doing? How do we define for us? If we have an equitable culture, if we are living racial equity, what does that look like for us? Um how does that affect our programmatic work? How does that affect our operations? Everything from our finances to our people processes to when we’re back in an office, even our physical setup, how how does that affect us and how would we define that future state? So it’s understanding what is my current state, What is my future state and then understanding how we get there and it’s likely going to be a long, all of the areas that we said right? So individual attorneys, some group and individual skill building, um, some evolution of our systems and some understanding of kind of how we can support each other and support ourselves for those that are that affiliate with a particular group. Um, and then kind of moving us along to that place of where we want to be. So it is, it is understanding where you are that determines what your access point is. But I would say if you if you have done the work of putting out this statement then there then look for look for where you’re not living that statement internally.

[00:38:55.72] spk_1:
That sounds like a very good place to Yeah. To start your search for for an access point because it’s so recent, Your organization has probably said something in the past 5, 6 weeks.

[00:39:00.82] spk_0:
Absolutely. And

[00:39:01.79] spk_1:
close are you hewing to that to that statement?

[00:39:20.22] spk_0:
Exactly. And we are incredibly, I would say important the use of the term but almost fortunate that so many thought leaders have been kind and generous enough to share with us their thoughts on this moment. So not just within the sector, but all the way across our society. So many people have taken the time and the patients and the generosity amidst everything else that they’re living through. They have agreed to share their thoughts, their leadership, their expertise with us? So there is a ton of knowledge out there right at our fingertips and that’s a, that’s another really great place to start and to center the voices that most need to be heard

[00:39:52.72] spk_1:
at the same time. You know, we are seeing beginnings of change. Uh institutions from Princeton University to the state of Mississippi

[00:40:14.41] spk_0:
right? Absolutely. To hopefully, uh, you know, the unnamed Washington football team and to Nascar and places where we, I didn’t know that change necessarily was possible, but we we are saying change and and the important thing is to not be complacent about that change,

[00:41:18.61] spk_1:
right? And not and also recognize that it’s just the beginning, you know, removing confederate statues, um taking old glory off the Mississippi flag. These are just beginnings, but but I think worth worth noting. I mean worth recognizing and celebrating because the state of Mississippi is a big institution and it’s been wrestling with this for, I don’t know if they’ve been wrestling for centuries, but that flag has been there for that just that long, right? 18. Some things I think is when that flag was developed. So it’s been a long, it’s been a long time coming. So recognizing it for what it is celebrating it to the extent that the, yeah, to the extent that represents the change. Beginning of the beginning of change? All right. Um, well, you know, what else, what else, what else do you want to share with folks at this, you know, at this

[00:42:02.10] spk_0:
stage? You know, I think, I think the main thing is um, dig in uh, we need to dig in on this. We need to dig in on this because in the same way that that we have been living this society societally for so long are organizations many times are microcosms of society. So if we think as an organization that were exempt or that were already there, we’ve arrived at like a post racial culture, that’s not the case. That’s just not the case. Um, so where do you want to dig it? Where do you want to dig in, chances are good. You are doing some version of looking at issues within your organization, whether it’s your annual survey, if you do it annually or whatever in which you can use that information to begin this journey. So dig in from where you are, it’s one of those things that if you’re waiting, if you’re waiting for kind of the exact right time or further analysis to begin the journey again, it’s not, it’s not based solely on analysis. There is a there is certainly information, there’s data that needs to be understood. But if we’re waiting for endless analysis to happen or to kind of point us to the right time that’s not going to happen. The intellectualism needs to be there. But again, as we said in the path, as we said a few times during the course of our conversation? This is about emotional residents and an emotional ownership and a moral obligation. So, dig in dig in wherever you are right now,

[00:43:15.10] spk_1:
what if I’m trying within my organization? Uh, and I’m not the leader, I’m not even second or third tier management or something, you know, how do I elevate the conversation? Uh, I presume it helps to have allies. What if what if I’m meeting a resistance from the people who, who are in leadership?

[00:43:50.50] spk_0:
I think look for the places where they’re made, not the resistance, right? So look within the organization. Um, if there is resistance at a particular level, then you know, who do you have access to in the organization where there isn’t that? And I think, I think starting out not assuming that you have solutions if you have expertise in this area, if you have lived through the oppression as a member of a community that has lived through the impression particularly black community, I think you’re coming from one place, if you are if you are not in that community and saying that you have expertise, I think you have to be a little bit more circumspect about that and introspective about what you can offer in this vein. Um, and I think, I think we want to look for the places where there is some traction, I think in most organizations, it’s not unusual to be getting the question right now

[00:44:25.59] spk_1:
and what is the I don’t want to call it outcome. What, what, what what can the future look like for our organization if we do embark on this long journey?

[00:44:42.89] spk_0:
Yeah, cultures that are equitable in which people can show up as their whole selves. Um, in which there is not only one right way to do things, which tends to be a very kind of white dominant Western culture, linear sequential way of managing work, of managing communications, etcetera. But that in fact work can be approached in a number of different ways and that solutions can be approached in a number of different ways. People get to show up and give their all to these missions that we all hold very near and dear. And so they are able they’re empowered. They are able they are celebrated without sticking to a set of preconceived guidelines or preconceived, unwritten or written rules that don’t serve us anymore. Anyway,

[00:45:24.49] spk_1:
when you started to answer that, I saw your face lighten up. You’re I don’t know, it was a smile. It just looks like you’re faced untended. Not that you’re

[00:45:31.70] spk_0:
nervous. Your face changed

[00:45:34.58] spk_1:
started to answer the where we could be.

[00:45:37.19] spk_0:
Who doesn’t like to imagine that future?

[00:45:43.99] spk_1:
Yeah, it was it was palpable. All right. All right. Are you comfortable leaving it there?

[00:45:46.59] spk_0:
I think so, I think so. What have we not covered that we need to cover for your listeners,

[00:45:52.59] spk_1:
you know that better than I

[00:45:54.68] spk_0:
for

[00:45:55.65] spk_1:
the place there at getting started.

[00:45:57.76] spk_0:
That’s fair. Look, you know what this is, this is the future that is written with many voices. And while I think I can be helpful, I don’t presume to be the voice that has all the answers I definitively don’t, I definitively don’t. And so what we have not covered is actually probably not known to me, but I dare say someone, someone out there does know that and they will likely be putting their voice up, which is exactly what we want.

[00:46:24.04] spk_1:
We will be bringing other voices as well. Alright,

[00:46:26.99] spk_0:
no doubt. Yeah,

[00:46:39.78] spk_1:
Patricia, she’s founder and Ceo of flourished Talent management Solutions and the company is at flourish tMS dot com. PCI thank you so much. Thank you very, very much.

[00:46:42.48] spk_0:
tony thank you. Thank you for opening up this space and having the conversation

[00:47:18.68] spk_1:
a pleasure. Uh it’s a responsibility and uh happy to live up to it. Try trying next week the activist activates activism with Amy sample ward if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez.

[00:47:23.33] spk_0:
Mark Silverman is

[00:47:51.68] spk_1:
our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great, Yeah, what?

Nonprofit Radio for June 28, 2021: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns for a valuable, fun conversation that starts with the #ShowTheSalary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor, and CEO of NTEN.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:02:04.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of para Nicaea if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Amy sample Ward returns for a valuable fund conversation that starts with the show the salary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor and ceo of N 10 on tony state too. Let’s rejoice, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, let’s get started, shall we, what do you say here is center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Amy sample ward. You know her, you know who she is, she’s our technology and social media contributor and she’s the Ceo of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement. She’s at a me sample ward dot org and at AMy R. S Ward, Welcome back amy,

[00:02:05.44] spk_0:
it’s been so long.

[00:02:15.34] spk_1:
I know it’s been several months. I didn’t even look back. It’s been too long, but let’s not, let’s not dwell on that. We’ll get, it’s my job to fix it.

[00:02:16.81] spk_0:
So what is time anyway? You

[00:02:19.37] spk_1:
know? Oh, that’s an existential question that we don’t have the time to answer what time is. So, um, you’re well in Oregon. Yes.

[00:03:00.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Doing pretty well hot. We’re hot in Oregon. We’ve got, we’ve got a hot hot keep wave and a hot summer ahead of us, but otherwise doing okay. And you know, I think like a lot of parts of the country, the kind of atmosphere feels like it’s lifting a little bit as, as cities kind of open up more because because it is summer, even if it’s super hot, it’s better to be outside and see other people, You know, I think after a long hard winter, people really just be inside

[00:03:08.12] spk_1:
Last summer, largely the same. Yeah, at least if you were doing the right thing. So yes, it beats the hell out of summer, 2020,

[00:03:15.10] spk_0:
right? Yeah.

[00:03:17.44] spk_1:
Although I’m sorry that climate change has contributed to bad temperatures in Oregon and

[00:03:22.55] spk_0:
yeah, yeah, we’ve already, it’s already fire season here and fire

[00:03:27.78] spk_1:
season is all the year now. Now California just doesn’t even have a fire season anymore. They just have fire fire

[00:04:40.64] spk_0:
thinking about, you know, how many And and 10 has community members all over the us Canada Europe all around the world. Um, and so it’s something we’re always thinking about is, you know, what’s going on and for somebody that might open an email or show up to a court. So being one of our cohort programs where we’re really kind of expecting a lot of you over an extended period of time and, you know, there’s folks in so many different geography, so many different identities, so many different kind of compounding factors where it just might not be a day that you can join of course, you know, and we have done a lot of work, kind of, all of all of 2020 started in 2019 and launched this calendar year with a number of changes to our programs so that people were better able to say, yeah, this isn’t the day that I can join us and that they weren’t kind of like slowly slipping behind or slipping out of any of our programs, that the system was already built for them to be like, yeah, not today. You know, uh again,

[00:05:15.54] spk_1:
we’re gonna talk about that to me that falls under the rubric of tech equity. We’re gonna we’re gonna talk about that. Let’s start with the something I know is on your mind. The show the salary campaign. There was it was a critical piece In the chronicle of philanthropy. Just yesterday, we’re recording on June 23 yesterday. There was a piece by Vincent Robinson, critical of show the salary campaign. Let’s acquaint folks with what show the salary is

[00:06:21.64] spk_0:
for sure. So I think show the salary like hashtag no spaces show the salary is a campaign, but it is not the only movement for there are many, many folks, many different hashtags, many different appeals to the sector at large, whether that’s foundation jobs or nonprofit jobs, whoever to include the salary, whether that’s a hard and fast number or that’s a range in every job hosting from Ceo to to any other position really because of the number of dynamics that come when you don’t show that salary and the privilege that it really wraps itself around, um that it’s not creating an equitable opportunity or access point for all different kinds of folks to apply for that job. And show the show salary is one of these campaigns and efforts to encourage folks whether by asking nicely or shaming whichever direction works to get people to do it

[00:07:41.14] spk_1:
all right. And some of the some of the reasons that showing the salary is important are I know that it gives an advantage to folks who negotiate salary better, which is typically white men. They are more confident in their negotiations. They have better outcomes when they attempt to negotiate. If not even better outcomes, they at least get get a better reaction when they attempt to negotiate. So it gives advantage to the white privileged. Um It’s um it’s disadvantageous in that you might be, I mean this this applies to everybody. You you might spend your time applying for a job that’s beneath your salary requirement. We all got to cover. We all got to cover a monthly nut. And if your salary isn’t gonna do it, you gotta go through a a laborious process to find that out. Maybe a couple of interviews, several hours your research time, you’re spiffing up your resume time, your credentials. So why should I hide it from anybody? Um on the positive side, he promotes transparency and you’d like to hire people who want to work for transparent organizations and people want to work for transparent organization? What am what am I what am I leaving out of the why the advantages, the reasons for showing the salary?

[00:08:32.14] spk_0:
I mean, I think all of those are right. And also all of those are kind of like doorways into an entire, you know, grouping of arguments that are related to them, right? And I think it intend we really um combined when we’re trying to mask or compelled or encourage or convince other organizations to include salaries to us that means compensation and generally make clear what your benefits really are. Don’t say generous benefits because to your point, if someone is um has chronic illness and they know that health care is going to be a really important part of the benefits they get and all that you’ve said is generous benefits. They don’t know how to navigate if that’s going to be worth their time competitive

[00:08:54.34] spk_1:
Really. You know, when you think about these things critically, which, you know, it’s, it’s just uh you know, for me at 59 years old, it’s what I grew up with commensurate salary, salary commenced with the experience and generous benefits. No, but if you do think about that well, it really communicates nothing generous, generous by whose standards commensurate by what type of experience

[00:08:57.34] spk_0:
and with the arbiter of that. Right?

[00:08:59.53] spk_1:
Well who is it? Yeah, who is? Right.

[00:10:24.74] spk_0:
Yeah. I think especially as uh folks are starting to maybe in a token izing way, look to increase the number of black indigenous staff of color, um, L G B T Q I plus like all different, you know, quote unquote diverse metrics for their staff. Those folks want to know that they are going to be evaluated by something they opted into, Right? So seeing something like, oh, it’s commensurate with experience. Well, if you are excited to hire me because I also speak spanish, but you’re not, you’re not giving me a salary because of that, then that’s probably not a great place, right? Like all of those decisions add up to a picture that’s getting painted to potential staff before they even apply, let alone are hired and start there. And if you think about, you know, what is this picture we’re painting? Is it just like murky and you can’t see anything isn’t really clear. We painted a beautiful picture of this land. They could come come join. You know, it isn’t just like what’s in the organization’s interest because you really want to be able to negotiate with someone. I would, I would invite a bit of reflection on why you want to change something, you know, because if you don’t already know how much you can pay, that’s how much you can pay. And if you don’t, then you’re probably not ready to start hiring.

[00:11:23.84] spk_1:
Okay. Uh, Vincent Robinson pushed back against the show the salary campaign. His his main point is that now he is a recruiter. He makes a point of saying that his practice is devoted to expanding diversity and accessibility among job applicant among applicants. Yes. And placements that he makes uh, he says that 90% of the candidates that he places are diverse. Bye bye. Common standards. Alright, So let’s, let’s just assume that that’s all the case. Uh, take him at his word for that. He says that the main problem with the show, the salary campaign is that it actually disadvantages folks. Um what’s this point? Because

[00:11:32.54] spk_0:
I mean, essentially, if I can, can recap it, um, the way that we read it and have discussed, invented is essentially saying that by disclosing that salary, so don’t already make it discouraged, right? Would feel that they wouldn’t go for that job. And

[00:12:22.64] spk_1:
Their if their current as it uses the example of someone whose salary is $60,000 and they feel they’re eminently qualified for a job that posts range, or a salary of $150,000, that they will be discouraged from applying because they feel they’re not worthy of that salary. And he says that he has counseled many people in that situation that they should absolutely apply. What does the I’m not I don’t want to make you a spokesman for the show, the salary campaign. We don’t even know who the members of the show the salary campaign are, which we are going to talk about. The secretive side of that. I’m curious about that. We’ll get to that as an advocate for show the salary. What do you say to Mr Robinson?

[00:15:23.34] spk_0:
Sure, I wouldn’t have nothing to do with the show, the salary campaign. And as far as I understand it, it’s a campaign started by nonprofit staff in the charity sector in the UK. Um wow, she and being in love with their julie and I have nothing to do with it. But there are, you know, folks like Julie and the community centric fundraising community and 10 lots of folks in the us have also been calling for this. I think the idea that someone would see a higher salary and think that they are not qualified. I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist like humans are complicated, dynamic, interesting creatures. And I’m sure there are people for whom they have experienced a lifetime of internalized messages that they are not worthy of that job, right? That is not going to be changed by all organizations continuing to hide the salary. We’re not changing the sectors general attitude that everyone deserves more money by hiding salary. So even if, even if there are individual use cases where people were discouraged because of a high salary, that is not a validation for not disclosing it. And ultimately, by showing those salaries, you’re encouraging peer organizations to equally pay that much for the similar title or scoped positions. Um, You know, I think another perspective, we talked about an intent was, well, if that person is making 60,000 there in an organization that has the full kind of, uh, equate herbal scope to that other position, then they probably shouldn’t be making 60. And the issue is that they are currently making too little, not that they are not qualified for a job that makes twice as much right. That the real issue is, is their current place of employment and that that place they should be able to use that job posting to say, hey, I like a race. I think the dynamic that’s not spoken about in the Chronicle piece that I do think is an important part of the conversation about hiring in the sector is the fact that that articles written by a recruit and I think that I have experienced and seen and coached many people applying for jobs who have a very different uh understanding or expectation or assumptions about what’s going on when they are dealing with a recruiter, then when they are applying directly to the organization. I think there’s a lot of messaging and marketing that recruitment firms are, you know, leadership or C. I. O. C Suite ceo type of jobs. And those feel like they imply a level of corporate nous, maybe certain size of organization, you know, and those are probably more likely the factors that are making folks feel like they don’t want to go for the job than the fact that it pays more money. But

[00:15:43.84] spk_1:
it’s interesting just the existence of a recruiter could be off putting to a lot of folks who internalize messages about their credentials.

[00:15:45.61] spk_0:
Not that I don’t think people should use recruiters, I definitely think they should, but I think that that’s an unspoken reality that is not factored into that article.

[00:16:01.94] spk_1:
Right. Right. Right. Which I’m not sure that he would even acknowledge. Yeah. But okay, I

[00:16:06.74] spk_0:
wanna, can I can I can I steer us back to the question and you always get to steer Can I give

[00:16:10.01] spk_1:
you latitude

[00:17:36.74] spk_0:
well, because you said something that I thought was interesting and we could talk about for a second earlier when you were saying, you know, expertise. Uh and I think that’s also a big part of all of this, is that If you were to take to job listings that you found, that said the salary and they said they were both $60,000 jobs, right? 60,000? Um as your annual salary? Mhm. I cannot imagine that you would find those two jobs, say they’re looking for the same experience or expertise or scope of job, even if they were both in communications are both in in programs, right? So I feel like there’s also an opportunity to be very open and intentional with how we phrase or or position to potential staff, what we were looking for when we hired you, because if it’s just like, you know how to use this database and you know, you know, you know how to do these tactical things, I don’t know how it matters who it is. You hire hire the first person then, right? Like if that’s the thing that’s most important to you, it’s just that they can technically do these things that feels to me like you maybe don’t even need a human. That’s a

[00:17:51.64] spk_1:
pretty, that’s a pretty shallow job description. If it’s just a list of four things that you need to be able to do it, right, then you just hire the first person who can do those four things and it makes no difference who it is,

[00:18:15.74] spk_0:
right? But I see, you know, intent as a dartboard and um see jobs posted in the sector on twitter et cetera all the time. I feel like hiring is kind of picking up now and I see so much of it is like we really want you to have experience with X database or X website platform or you know, and like does any of that matter? Can’t you teach somebody the

[00:18:19.26] spk_1:
database? It’s all trainable, it’s all right, we need somebody who’s trainable

[00:18:49.24] spk_0:
right? Like eager to learn, interested in doing the work that we do, but not that you already know how to do certain things right? That’s not the most compelling. And again back to that idea of like you’re painting a picture for these potential applicants, you’re painting a picture that like what they’re what they’re part of. That magical garden scene is like you have a hammer, you have a shovel, you have some seed like you know, it’s probably looks not as appealing, right? It looks like, oh yes, this is beautiful garden scene and I will sit over here hammering on the bench.

[00:19:26.14] spk_1:
Uh I mean uh I guess what we’re, what we’re talking about though, depends on the level that you’re hiring too. I mean if if an expertise is required in something that’s not that’s not trainable, I mean you so you have I. T. Staff, you have the luxury of having write your own development team. Um

[00:19:26.79] spk_0:
So yes, he does the work of a team. Okay. Okay.

[00:19:32.40] spk_1:
Yes. We’ll shout him out now. Go ahead

[00:19:34.25] spk_0:
dan. Yeah.

[00:20:02.04] spk_1:
So you have the luxury of having a development person, web development person. Um So, you know, he has to have a basic level of skill or or beyond basic in certain things. I don’t know whether it’s C Plus plus or drooping or you know, whatever. I don’t know. Html Well, we’re beyond html That I know. So, you know, at that point you would, you would advertise a fluency with something, wouldn’t you?

[00:20:09.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean when we hired for that position, you know, we certainly wanted to say these are the platforms we’re currently using. Um, but okay. And you need to, you

[00:20:15.11] spk_1:
need to be able to support these.

[00:20:58.64] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. But that was, you know, that’s more of like, hey, this is the job. So stop reading if you don’t know what wordpress is, Maybe not the posting for you, but the things that we really want our, that you, I want to be part of a team where every person has leadership responsibility. You know, you’re not just going to be told what to do. Like you also have to come up with what to do and uh, you know, we want everybody on the team helps with the Ntc. You’re going to like carry a sign down the hallway, put it somewhere. Like you don’t just get to sit at a computer. You know, like we really want to communicate that working at what working in china is like and make clear that that’s what we’re looking for, right vs. The list is for this salary. You can do these five technical things.

[00:25:18.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times, Wall Street Journal, UsA Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, The Hill Cranes, nonprofit Quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten recent exposure. You want that kind of press turn to has the relationships to make it happen. Turn hyphen two dot c O. Your story is their mission. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Let’s rejoice this summer. We’ve come so far from a year ago from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in this summer. I hope you can. Yes, there’s a long ways to go to My state. North Carolina is less than 50% vaccinated, but we’re so much further from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in how far we have come. I hope that you can do that in your own way. I hope you can schedule some time away or some just some time. It doesn’t even have to be time away. I hope you can schedule time for yourself, family, friends, all of which we couldn’t do couldn’t do safely a year ago. So let’s rejoice in how far we have come while at the same time recognizing there’s a good way to go before we’re out of the woods with this pandemic with the delta variant now and other possibilities of variations. Yeah, we’ve come a long way. I hope that you can take the time for yourself, for your family, for friends to do some rejoicing this summer. Have some fun, whatever form fun takes for you, whatever it is. If it’s crocheting, if it’s travel, if it’s stay home, okay if it’s more time with kids, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, whatever form fun takes for you. I hope you can do it. I hope you can because we are so much further along than we were this time last year. That is Tony’s take two sending blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag, tisk, tisk. It’s your life if you’re using one of those, send in blue is priced for nonprofits, easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Very melodic. It’s like, it’s iambic pentameter. Almost. How do you encourage job posters on the N 10 job board, which I know is one of your more popular pages on the areas on the, on the site at n 10 dot org of course. Um, I know you require salary their number or arrange a minimum or arrange I guess. But beyond that, what, what can you or what can other folks do to either encourage it if they have a job board or working in their own job descriptions.

[00:26:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think a lot of the other work that we do is not very publicly visible. I have had a number of community members over the years since we’ve been requiring salary where they want to post a position. They themselves had already asked their organization, what’s the salary going to be in the organizations that were not posting it? So then they come to me and say like, I don’t have a lot of positional power. But what I could do is like bring you in on a conversation that put some pressure on, you know, and have some conversation that, that does convince them because even if they didn’t want to do it, they’re doing it gradually. I was looking at them so they did it, you know, you know,

[00:26:10.85] spk_1:
you know that,

[00:26:11.79] spk_0:
well, you

[00:26:13.28] spk_1:
Have the leverage of the N- 10 job board and we’re talking about technology if it detects job, the intent job board is like a Seminole place to be.

[00:26:43.74] spk_0:
Right. Right. So I’ve had lots of places where I’ve either helped people come up with their talking points to take to their team or joined email threads or even had phone calls with hiring managers who weren’t convinced, you know, and just spent 10 minutes talking to them about it, um, to get them kind of to the other side. And I think that’s, You know, while it’s kind of maybe not in my job description, those 10 minute calls or helping somebody with their talking points in a Google dog are changing organizations. And I really love between that work, you know,

[00:27:31.84] spk_1:
but that’s using intense influence the same way you do when you, uh, when you sign contracts for, for the NtC that you insist you have, you have certain requirements from, I guess diversity to food to, you know, whatever you use the leverage, use the leverage in that case it’s dollars in hiring case, it’s the N 10 job board you want to be on it. I mean the bottom line is you got to play by our rules. I’m happy to have a conversation with you about why those rules exist and how they contribute to the in 10 values,

[00:27:33.92] spk_0:
How

[00:27:43.54] spk_1:
they flow from the intent values. Maybe more more eloquent, but more appropriate. But in the end, you know, if you want to be on the job board, you gotta, you gotta use our rules if you want. You want the N 10 money, you want the N 10 conference at your center, then we have, we have certain basic requirements that are unyielding.

[00:28:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting because the intent job board, of course you can post a job, but I think most people think of when they think of a job board, like a part time or full time organization that you are working for overtime. But we also, you can also post gigs or RFP s shorter term project type posts and we require a salary or budget to be listed on those two and that’s actually the place where we get the most push back. Um and folks will say, well we don’t know what our budget is until people reply to our RFP. And while I understand that, could I feel like reality, there is just like a, just like a potential applicant to become an employee. A potential contractor also doesn’t know if this is a project that they should bother trying to take on if they have no idea what your budget. So again, you don’t know what your budget is. You’re not ready to hire. Call for our FPs. You

[00:28:56.38] spk_1:
Need to know whether this is a $10,000 project or $60,000 project. I mean without saying a range of $10-$60,000, which is, which is worthless. People, people do that. Do they say?

[00:29:08.44] spk_0:
Okay, sometimes? Yes.

[00:29:10.03] spk_1:
Alright, well that’s

[00:31:05.24] spk_0:
worth. Sometimes. Yes, we try and catch those and talk to people. But you know, I think that folks, it’s such, it’s also such a privileged position to say like, well, we don’t even know what the budget is, where what I hear in that is whatever people tell us is what we could pay. And I don’t think that most nonprofits have a relationship to their cash flow, where they could say whatever somebody says is what we should pay, right? You you likely do have a discreet budget range And even if you feel like it’s really low and you’re sad that it would look low, it’s better that that’s on the table at the beginning, before a bunch of firms, you know, do a bunch of work. Um, and 10 actually just closed an RFP for our own, like it was on our job board, but it was our own RFP to do a website redesign project. And um, we had talked to, uh, so many firms in the community, but one had kind of expressed a bit of a surprise that we were anticipating 10, maybe 15 Responses to the RFP. That that would be a lot of responses. Well, we got over 40 and what we heard from a lot of people is the reason we got so many is because the RFP was very clear. It said why that was our budget and what what we could do in house, what we needed somebody else to do. So, because we have taken longer than our original timeline was internally to be really clear in the RV, we were able to get so many more potential folks that wanted to work with us. And now of course, I don’t know how long it’s gonna take us to read this many are applications, but um, it’s a better problem to have than than only a few that submit and none of them feel like a good fit. You know, now we’ll be able to choose from a great difficult group of to decide.

[00:31:45.34] spk_1:
So it ends up being worth the internal time that you spent. It was beyond your projected time because you’ve got 433 times the number of applicants, uh, proposals that you were expecting. All right. Right. Um, uh, so let’s talk about the show the salary campaign. Okay. Now you all right. So you said you’re not you’re not a part of it. I didn’t know that had started in the UK for one. I feel like they, um, they suffer some because it’s all it’s all secretive. They don’t reveal.

[00:31:46.69] spk_0:
Doesn’t need to be like,

[00:32:01.04] spk_1:
well, yeah, I mean, I think credibility, I think naming who you are, at least some of whom you are, helps with credibility. You know, purely

[00:32:02.03] spk_0:
seeking. But they do say that there are non profit staff.

[00:32:05.84] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:32:24.34] spk_0:
And I feel like their appeal isn’t saying we like this one organization, you know, we’d like this one funder to change their grant application and we are previous grantees. So we have a level of knowledge. Like there isn’t any, uh, in my opinion, there isn’t any justification you need to do to say, yeah, I think people should have to show their salaries, you know, they

[00:32:38.34] spk_1:
Have, like six or 8 reasons why the salary should be shown. Uh, you know, it’s secretiveness creates suspicion,

[00:32:44.14] spk_0:
doesn’t I just I just don’t share that feeling. I feel

[00:32:48.15] spk_1:
like,

[00:34:03.44] spk_0:
um not the number of people that, like, for example, we have because we have talked on the website and the job board, we have a blog post about why we want people to to include their salary. Um, it’s common that folks that we don’t know or or we’re not first name basis, like community member, we know who they are will tag us in a tweet thread and include our blog post while they are trying to convince someone else. We weren’t even heard of that. We don’t know who these people are that are talking, you know? But they’re like, oh well and then to doesn’t here’s their article and you should really do this. So those people don’t even necessarily know who we are, but they’re using it to support their argument. And I feel like I don’t need to go into that twitter friends like, hello, I am a me I am in ceo these are all of the reasons why I get to exclaim this. And you know, I don’t I don’t know that. I don’t know that the campaign, like so many other campaigns is trying to say that the exclusive use of that hashtag are the eight collaborators on that website, right that like anyone can go appeal to folks that are sharing their salary and ask them to do it. You know that it’s it’s about the message. It’s not about the people who have the capacity to build the website and get it out

[00:34:29.54] spk_1:
there. It is. Yeah. As I said, they have six or eight reasons why you should should show the salary. Um All right. Maybe I’m just more traditionalist, but you know, secretiveness breeds suspicion for me. I would like to see a couple of

[00:34:31.27] spk_0:
names that

[00:34:32.06] spk_1:
Uh and then but then you say, you know, but in that case where you were citing, you know, in 10 gets broke. So other folks brought you in. So you’re they presume your credibility

[00:34:42.94] spk_0:
well. But I think it’s the same way where people that aren’t who I’m just saying that because that’s a random number of people, but like whoever was the friends who created that website, like people don’t need to know them in order to use the hashtag show the salary for saying, you

[00:35:00.54] spk_1:
know, and and to agree with the six or 8 reasons that they

[00:35:03.08] spk_0:
have, which

[00:35:07.04] spk_1:
is you’re all very cogent to me. I just I would like them to go a step further.

[00:35:11.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Ok. I hear your concern. I have nothing to do with them. So I can I will not pass this feedback to anyone. But

[00:36:01.33] spk_1:
you don’t know anybody. I don’t know. It’s like people say this is in confidence. I always say, well, I don’t know anybody to tell. Right? And a few people I do know that nobody listens to me anyway. So, so your your confidence is well kept with me. Don’t worry. Don’t worry about that. Yeah. Yeah, sure. You got my confidence. Absolutely. This isn’t confidence. Absolutely. Okay. Um bringing a little more down to uh, some actionable steps or if the if not actionable, at least, things that folks can consider. And I’m always grateful to you that we can use N 10 as an example. You have, you have the N 10 Equity Guide for nonprofit technology which is at N 10 dot org. And my suggestion after that was just search for Equity guide for nonprofit technology in

[00:36:05.24] spk_0:
your or its underneath the resources either way. Okay.

[00:36:29.53] spk_1:
It’s called the Equity guide for nonprofit technology and you have some things that you recommend there and I’m sure that intend abides by or at least tries to abide by as best as you can. Um, and the first one is that is sort of what we were talking about earlier. Don’t assume expertise in technology radio

[00:38:52.12] spk_0:
and I think that this gets a little bit confusing for folks because they are hiring for a position where whomever is hired saying is you tony I hire you. I know that so much of your day is going to be using these couple systems and I think I’m doing doing a favor to everybody by saying, okay, we really want somebody who already knows how to use these things, right. But it is unlikely that the way you use that database or the way you have set up your website or the way you use white books, you know, whatever it is, is exactly the same organization to organization. Um kind of what we were saying before, you want somebody who’s interested in ready to learn how you use your database and maybe you want somebody who is familiar with what databases do and are and has ever used a database. But the idea that it’s really important to hire someone who’s used that exact same suite of tools, it doesn’t, it’s just not realistic. They have not been customized the way your organization is customized people are using Salesforce in a way that is unrecognizable, Salesforce. That doesn’t mean that because they use Salesforce somewhere else, they automatically know how you’re using it. And all of those things, just as you said at the beginning or a teacher, we should be invested in teaching all staff, all of the technical things they need always, not just in their orientation, right? But technology training is all the time because technology is changing. And when we remove those pieces of focus from the job description, it allows us to really focus on what matters more. That’s less tradable, less teachable. And that is, you know, are you solutions minded? Are you interested in leadership and responsibility? Do you have experience with community engagement? Do you come from this community that we serve? I don’t know what things might be specific to the job that we’re all raised from in here in this example. But getting to elevate those other pieces that are maybe more about what somebody wants to do or has a natural inclination towards, instead of Can you click a mouse on the screen? Like we will teach you how to do that part, you know? But if you don’t like working with people, maybe that’s not the job because they’re clicking the button so that they can talk to people right? Like there’s something else happening in that job and focus on that instead

[00:39:10.22] spk_1:
related to that making training accessible. Uh, so, you know, I mean, to me there, those really go hand and glove. I mean, don’t assume a certain type of expertise and then you need to make the training accessible. And as you just said, you know, throughout, because technology is changing, it’s not

[00:40:45.21] spk_0:
just not everybody learns in the same way orientation. Uh just saying like, oh yeah, we made this internal wiggy and there’s a bunch of pages, How about it? Like not everyone can just go look at this wiki. They didn’t make themselves and learn from it. So know that however you’re going to invest in training, its investing in different types of opportunities to learn the same, maybe core functions so that people can engage the way that that works for them. And then take, for example, the way that we do this is we like to, you know, document things so that it is written down for people that like to have the guide of, okay, step one step to do some uh recorded a recorded screen where someone is clicking through doing the thing right? And then everybody brings their computer to a meeting and we all do it out loud together at the same time so that somebody can say I did a practice one of these before the meeting and now it’s showing me the screen and then everybody can look and you’re like, oh my screen looks like this, your screen looks like this. Let’s all learn what this error is, you know? Um and it means that of course it normalizes that everyone needs to learn these things and it isn’t just, you know, one person’s job, but it also creates this opportunity for really deep learning because we engaged in that so many different ways, you know, as a team,

[00:41:04.01] spk_1:
community learning right together. Yeah. Um you know, requiring equitable equipment policies and and that’s related to bring your own device,

[00:42:27.50] spk_0:
bring your own device, something we saw at the start of the pandemic, even beyond, Bring your own device was, you know, in an organization where there’s uh in use a very traditional hierarchy, people that were directors or above got to have Apple laptops. So when they said, okay, work from home, they were ready to go. The managers and below had desktop computers, so they were not ready to go, you know, um, and there wasn’t uh, acknowledgment of the inequity there. And I think that’s a very easy case in point where you can think about that. But we’ve received so many questions over the last 16 months of people saying, okay, well, now that our organization is convinced, then we can kind of kind of maintain a hybrid model going forward. They still haven’t changed the policies that say directors get a new computer every two years and everybody else gets one every six years, but my computer is dying, you know, and I don’t qualify. So the option I’m being told by my own or use my own, which of course isn’t, isn’t equitable is not a fair expectation, but it also creates all these other security vulnerabilities were now working off of machines that are part of the organization’s college.

[00:42:46.30] spk_1:
It goes yes, it is inequitable. It’s also high risk. Right? So, so the employee buys their own now, how do you know what else they have on it? It belongs to them. They are welcome to their privileged and entitled to put whatever they want on it. And how do you know? And what? So now what kind of devices, your data being stored on?

[00:43:22.50] spk_0:
Right. Exactly. And where are people accessing it from? You know, a number of organizations often try to address some level of security vulnerability by making sure that all of the staff laptops have a VPN and they know how to turn the VPN on, but then when they start using their tablet or their own personal computer to do that work in a different way, they’re not going through the VPN. So there’s just so many places where it undermines other efforts you have actually invested in because you are not thinking about what it needs to have devices for everybody that works for them.

[00:44:29.89] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. And let’s wrap up with, and there’s, there’s many more, there’s probably a dozen different, if again, if not action, actionable items, at least items for you to think about and discuss all throughout the, uh, in this, in the intent equity guide for nonprofit technology. There’s a lot more than what we’re just the couple that I’m that I’m raising with Amy, that we’re talking about supporting remote work obviously, very timely, uh, enormously, you know, but um, everybody doesn’t have, uh, there’s not the same level of, of broadband access. We know this, I mean, you’ve been you’ve been active for years on the broadband equity. Um and now it’s part of biden’s infrastructure proposal. Well, how much of that will get past? Very uncertain, right? Some people only define infrastructure as macadam and concrete and bricks and mortar and beyond that, you know, they don’t want to know about infrastructure. So, you know, you can’t even assume the simplest things that so many of us take for granted exist among all your among all your staff.

[00:45:49.19] spk_0:
And, you know, I think what’s just so confounding to me is the number of organizations who last March said, oh my gosh, we have to work from home. So they didn’t, they worked from home, they work from home for over a year, and now they’re saying you have to be in the office to work, which what I hear when someone says that is that You do not believe work happened for the last 16 months, and I’m pretty sure that work did have, and it probably happened in ways that were better for each individual staff person managing their day and their needs and what else they had going on in their life. So if if folks have to be in the office, sitting at that desk in front of the screen to be quote unquote work came to me that says, you don’t think what can happen unless they are being surveilled while they do it, right? That realizing you’re stuck and you are definitely not working on this article you need to work on. So you’re gonna get up and like make a big fresh pot of tea that that’s not a part of your human management of your

[00:45:53.61] spk_1:
valuable to you.

[00:46:50.98] spk_0:
Right. Right. So, I think organizations that are pushing for this kind of return to in person are really hurting their staff. There are staff. We’ve already seen articles about staff are leaving on mass instead of returning because that’s not it’s the bar, right? Like we have said, the bar is I should be able to be a human that can be trusted to do my job and also live my life. And organizations that can’t respect that I think are not going to have the kind of, you know, talent and diversity that they may say they want. Um, and what I think is important to also acknowledges, there are people for whom working in the office is ideal for them because they can’t focus at home or at home. There are too many other demands on their time from family members or, or whatever else. But That one person working best in the office doesn’t mean everyone else has to be there. Exactly 9-5 with them, right. There should still be a way to support folks who are really great staff and just can’t be in the office, you know?

[00:47:26.88] spk_1:
Yeah. There are folks who want to be nomads now. You know, we, we can’t ignore what, what we learned over the past 16 months and what people have learned about themselves as well as what hopefully organizations learned about themselves and their people. These lessons, you know, these lessons are with us now for generations, right?

[00:47:31.78] spk_0:
And that’s our opportunity to learn from them and get better and grow versus hold on to an idea of something that also wasn’t working before the pandemic,

[00:48:23.97] spk_1:
right? But we just very few people have the courage. Very few organizations have the courage to attempt something different, okay. And they got forced into it to marches ago and we can’t ignore the lessons that we’ve learned and people are not, people are not going to be willing to take a step back. So yeah, if your organization is insisting, I would say especially now during the summer, I mean, if it’s maddening, I mean, uh, you know, I’ve had folks tell me that their offices go, they’re going back to the office starting in like mid june or july. It’s the summer for Pete’s sake. Nobody had any any summer in 2020. So if, if you have any humanity at all, at least wait until september or maybe even october. But even beyond then, right, you know, we’ve learned so much and people are not going to be willing to go backwards. And if you want, if you want to retain the best people, you know, some of them are going to want to be nomads. Now, some of them,

[00:48:33.52] spk_0:
you’re going to want to be able to be at home when their kid is sick and not have to take off work. Yeah.

[00:48:49.67] spk_1:
Okay. It’s, it’s equity, it’s tech, it’s hiring, its, its retention, it’s good policies

[00:49:01.37] spk_0:
and I think part of how we ended up going all over the place of this conversation is just a reflection of how interconnected all these things are and kind of directional. If you, if you can’t share your salary on your job description, you’re probably, what else are you hiding from people? Oh, now they’re hired. They probably don’t get to have a great computer that they choose, right? Like it’s all part of the same mess.

[00:49:32.17] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. We only contribute 25% of health care premiums. Yeah, exactly. All right. All right. Thank you. Amy Amy sample award ceo of intent. Our technology and social media contributor. Uh, you’ll find her at AMY sample ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward. Thank you for fun. Provocative, interesting conversation. Thank you.

[00:49:41.35] spk_0:
Thank you. As always.

[00:51:25.96] spk_1:
Next week it’s Jean Takagi returns. It’s Jean Takagi. Next week Jean Takagi returns with your one hour legal audit. Who writes this copy this middling lackluster coup. This is why I need an intern. I haven’t put the word out for interns lately, oddly nobody ever applies, but I need an intern to blame for this middling copy. So if you know someone who wants to be blamed, introduce them to me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant End in Blue. Creative Producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott. Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Yeah. What?

Nonprofit Radio for April 5, 2021: Gender Inclusivity 101 & Ethical Representation In Your Communications

My Guests:

Jude Shimer: Gender Inclusivity 101
Our 21NTC coverage continues with a convo that started out talking about gender-inclusive data, and includes a lot of best practices around that. But it broadened into a primer on inclusivity generally. It’s 2021! It’s time to address your constituents as they’d like to be addressed. My guest is Jude Shimer from The Center for Popular Democracy.

 

Caliopy Glaros: Ethical Representation In Your Communications
Caliopy Glaros urges you to authentically represent your issues as well as preserve the dignity of those affected by them. She shares 5 actions to help you tell more ethical and equitable stories. She’s principal of Philanthropy Without Borders and this is also part of our 21NTC coverage.

 

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[00:02:21.54] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Andrea Strand, Dallas Canton Insys If you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show you that cutting in the background. By the way, I’m having a little work done outside gender inclusivity. One. Oh one. Our 21 NTC coverage continues with a convo that started out talking about gender inclusive data and includes a lot of best practices around that. But it broadened to a primer on inclusivity. Generally, it’s 2021. It’s time to address your constituents as they like to be addressed. My guest is Jude Shimmer from the Center for Popular Democracy and Ethical Representation. In your communications Calliope Glaros urges you to authentically represent your issues as well as preserve the dignity of those affected by them. She shares five actions to help you tell more ethical and equitable stories. She’s principle of philanthropy without Borders, and this is also part of our 21 NTC coverage on tony. Stick to how are you doing? Plus podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is gender inclusivity one Oh one. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. My guest right now is Jude Shimmer. They are CRM manager at the Center for Popular Democracy. Jude, welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:23.37] spk_2:
Hello. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:51.34] spk_0:
Absolutely. My pleasure. Your session is respect your donors with gender inclusive data and you’re claim I’m not sounding. I don’t, uh I don’t mean to sound skeptical of it. No, you say that we can improve relationships and and grow our base by being more cautious or using gender inclusive data practices better? Yes. So just as an overview, what are we not getting right?

[00:03:48.24] spk_2:
Sure. So this is a particular interest of mine because I’m trans and non binary, and, uh, I have a lot of experiences, especially filling in forms filling in donation forms for nonprofits where I started my session at NTC was an anecdote where I was trying to donate to an organization that I cared a lot about. And they had a salutation field on their donation form that was required, and it didn’t have any gender neutral option. Except for Dr um and I I never understand why any donation form would require that, Like, why it just It makes no sense to me. Uh, and I actually reached out to this organization and asked if they could update their form. Um, and at the time, I already was working for a company. Um, that, among other things, was a donation and online donation platform for nonprofits. And so I built a lot of donation forms. Um, and I

[00:03:58.30] spk_0:
knew what was possible. Yeah,

[00:04:17.34] spk_2:
exactly. You do not have to have a required salutation field. Yeah, it didn’t work. They they the person who who I emailed with actually was really sympathetic and seemed really eager to do it and then said that they tried and it broke their form and that therefore they couldn’t do it. And so I didn’t donate to the Oregon. They didn’t get my donation.

[00:04:22.32] spk_0:
Yeah, You could have offered a technical assistance Probably helped to fix their broken form. Alright,

[00:04:28.96] spk_2:
Yeah. Then it becomes a question of free labor.

[00:05:07.44] spk_0:
Yeah. No, you shouldn’t have to do that. Just by the way, you may hear a little banging in the background. I’m having some floor work done, so Oh, well, congrats or cutting, right? Thank you. And replacing carpet with, uh, L V P. This planking vinyl planking that looks doesn’t look like 19 sixties vinyl, so it’s a little noisy, but that’s that’s you might hear that in the background. Um, yeah. All right. So I mean, let’s start with the most basic, you know, Why would they need to require a salutation? I mean, I have a rationale for that. Or do you see a rationale that you don’t agree with? Probably. But yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:05.84] spk_2:
I’ve talked to a lot of nonprofits who either do require a salutation on their forms or wanted to require salutation on your forms again. The the clients that I was working out with the time and the platform that I was supporting, um, did not require salutation, and, uh and we had a policy against it. Um, and you didn’t even have to have salutation on the form, but we had clients who would request that it be required. And I talked to several about it, and it really came down to this myth that donors want to be addressed by their salutation all the time. Like universally, That’s just the thing that donors want. And therefore we need to ask for it, because if we don’t know their salutation, we’re not going to be able to to write it on their acknowledgement letter and they’re going to be upset and they’re going to feel disrespected and they won’t want to donate anymore. And I have never actually like. No one was able to actually give me some kind of evidence that this is true. Like no one told me a story of like, Oh, we had a donor and we forgot to use their salutation and they were really upset, and they wouldn’t donate any more like that. Does that ever actually happen? And if it does, mhm. That sounds like the donors problem. Like you know, there you can find other donors you have. You know, one odd one who insists on being referred to it not only insists on having their salutation used, but having it asked up up front and the idea that it should be required, like at least just making it optional gives people the opportunity to put it in if they want to be addressed by it. And then no one else has to, but required. Makes no sense to me.

[00:07:10.84] spk_0:
All right, so let’s broaden this and go. Go to what? You know, what is what What else is out there that we should be sensitive to besides salutation? You know what? Sure. What is gender data?

[00:09:01.54] spk_2:
Sure. So, um, there’s the actual gender field. Um, so, you know, male, female, Any other options, which there are actually many more. Um, And there also is, uh, pronoun, which and I also want to be clear, like salutation is not analogous to gender. And pronoun is not analogous to gender. So someone may identify as male, but use they them pronouns. Um, because pronoun usage is very personal. Um, but, uh, but all of these things relate to the concept of gender. So when I talk about gender data, I’m talking about all of the various fields that people associate with gender. So, um so yeah, there’s salutation, There’s pronoun, there’s the actual gender field. And then there’s also sex, which I address in my, um in my presentation as being totally irrelevant to this conversation. When we’re talking about donors donor data, there is no justification whatsoever to ask for or know the sex of your donor, meaning the sex they were assigned at birth. It’s a complete non issue, so you can just drop it off the list. Um, with gender itself, the gender field this one is this one is very interesting. So multiple times that I’ve seen forms that ask for gender because they want to, like put a T shirt in someone’s membership package and want to know whether to include a men’s or woman’s T shirt. But there is no explanation of that. They don’t ask for, like, T shirt style. They just ask for gender, male or female and

[00:09:15.74] spk_0:
but no size, right? So yeah, okay, so that that justification seems kind of thin. Yeah, exactly. Kind. That that’s a thin Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:08.34] spk_2:
Um, so that’s an example. And that’s one that I’ve seen on on donation, or at least membership forms. And then also, though there are other reasons why a nonprofit might want to ask for gender less. So because of, um, like, just a donation situation. But maybe because they’re accepting some kind of application or submission, maybe around their programming, Um, maybe they’re going to have an event, Uh, and they want to have performers or Panelists. And that actually is a really good justification for asking for gender to ensure equity. Um, to make sure that you don’t end up with, you know, an all male or all CIS gender panel. Or, you know, artists in your new works programming things like that. Um, And in that case, there are best practices for how to ask for gender. Um,

[00:10:51.74] spk_0:
okay, we’re gonna we’ll get to that. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Everyone to get ahead of it. You know, we’ve got to get the best practice. Yeah, I’m just trying to set the set the field For what? We’re what it is we’re talking about. Can I, uh This is maybe a little part. Well, that’s not so, but I want you to explain your your feelings around something when when someone doesn’t refer to you as they are them, but says he or she how does that feel? I’m not asking you to speak for the entire, you know, the entire community. Uh, but how does it feel to you when someone miss Miss Miss identifies you?

[00:11:05.74] spk_2:
That’s a great question for me. Personally, Um, it feels confusing. And it it feels like being called the wrong name repeatedly. Um, your

[00:11:07.16] spk_0:
analogy, because yeah, that feels Yeah, exactly. I thought you said Tom. You know, I’ve heard a few. Yeah,

[00:11:52.34] spk_2:
um, and so for me, I don’t have a particularly strong emotional reaction. It’s just incorrect. It’s just like, Oh, no, that’s that’s wrong. That doesn’t fit. Uh, that is my unique experience for other trans people. It can be really, really unpleasant and traumatic. Um, it also depends on how it’s done, because if someone does it by accident, you know, they slip up or they like I haven’t had an opportunity to tell them my pronoun, and they just assume that feels different from when someone has been told repeatedly. And they are persistently using the wrong pronoun. Um and, well,

[00:12:06.34] spk_0:
old repeatedly and consistently doing it wrong. Is that almost like harassment? Yeah. It is a legal definition of harassment harassing to you, Maybe in a non legal way. Whatever. Yeah, all right, All right. Thank you. All right. Thanks. Thanks for sure.

[00:13:15.94] spk_2:
And actually, there’s something I do want to add to that, which is that there are. There’s sort of a scale of, of disrespect or lack of respect for trans people as far as impact. And it’s different for different people. So for me, things like being called the wrong pronoun by someone who’s only just met me or being called ma’am by a server or or, you know, having to confront, like, a restrictive gender field on a form. These things really annoy me. But I also have significantly more traumatic experiences, like being yelled at to leave my gym locker room or having really unpleasant experiences at the O B G y n. And these may seem different, but for me, they are all part of the same kind of miasma, like like they all come together to create an experience. And so when when someone can help mitigate those things that seem smaller, like a form, form field, or like or like a brief Miss Jen during briefly using the wrong pronoun, it makes such a big difference. It really does. Um, and I think that’s important to talk about.

[00:13:54.74] spk_0:
Yeah. And I’m sorry that you you need to have the the small, like, sort of corrections because the the fronts, you know, shouldn’t be there. It sounds like you know, So it sounds like the small the the small incidents where it’s done properly mean a lot to you because there’s so many. There’s so many mis mis identifications out there. Yeah, exactly. But I’m sorry you have to suffer the fronts to

[00:13:56.42] spk_2:
Yeah, what it’s like here right now.

[00:15:07.24] spk_0:
Look, um, you know, so I’m 59 So I’m speaking to folks who are, you know, if if you’re not in your twenties or like early thirties, you know, you didn’t grow up with the pleasure of pronouns that we have now, uh, so, you know, at 59 I grew up, you know, obviously more traditional. Um, but it’s 2021. So, you know, if you want to be online, your forms have to adapt if you want to. You want to interact in society, you know? I mean, if you want to just talk to your family, then you don’t have to, I guess you don’t have to adapt. But if you’d like to go outside your family, assuming you don’t have any trans folks in your family, you know you might. But let’s assume you don’t you know, if you want to stay in solar for the rest of your life, then then you could live your little in your little bubble. But if you want to be part of functioning society in 2021 you know, at 59 years old, I’m here to tell you that you have to adapt. Things are different, you know, just like they were different from the forties to the sixties. Things are different from the knots to the 2022 20 twenties, so get on board. All right, all right, that’s all. So for my my, uh, age peers jump on, all right, it’s not so bad. It’s not. That’s not bad at all. You know, it’s just it’s

[00:15:11.13] spk_2:
good change,

[00:15:21.24] spk_0:
part of a national worldwide community. So be part of it, or stay in your little home and stay in your little zip code if you like. You know? All right, Um, and there’s probably trans folks in your zip code anyway. So you know you’re not there

[00:15:25.22] spk_2:
definitely are little zip code. Little bubble is not as safe

[00:15:37.64] spk_0:
as you might think. All right there, huh? My, uh, imploring my my my peers to come aboard. So All right. Um, well, since you mentioned best practices, you know, we’re gonna talk about when to collect and not to collect. We still got plenty of time. So but let’s let’s talk about some of the best practices about, you know, if you are going to collect it and I guess you could bleed into, you know, whether to collect or not, you know, what’s your advice?

[00:16:11.34] spk_2:
Sure. So if you are going to collect it again, I see two main justifications for collecting gender. Specifically one. You’re accepting submissions, and you want to ensure equity to you want to do some kind of survey. So maybe your survey, your surveying your donors or potential donors about all kinds of things. Maybe you’re surveying them about your programming and whatever else,

[00:16:15.20] spk_1:
and you also want to

[00:17:03.64] spk_2:
know about them demographically. That’s really, really fair. Um, and especially in certain nonprofit industries, um, in industries that are that are centered around uh, progressive movement or equity? Um, in the former case with with submissions. Um, uh, a pretty standard practice is to use, uh, values for female male, non binary Prefer not to say and not listed or prefer to self identify. Um, and, uh, that last one is really important because, um, people can identify all kinds of ways. It’s also becoming more and more of a recognized best practice not to use the term other there, Um, because it literally others people. But to say, you know, right, you know, self identified or not listed,

[00:17:14.54] spk_0:
Should you should you give folks if they’re choosing, uh um, not listed should you give them a chance to feel positive or

[00:17:43.34] spk_2:
absolutely, Yeah, that should always come with a right and sealed. Um, every every gender field should come with a right in field. And in fact, the absolute best practice for as far as I’m concerned for for ensuring equity and submission is to just make it right in field, like forget about the pick list values, but let people right and what they want where they where organizations will sometimes run into issues perceived or real with that is, if They have lots and lots and lots of submissions, and they want to be able to sort and filter things. Um, so that’s where the justification for for a pick list, um,

[00:18:06.74] spk_0:
can come in. Otherwise, it has to be some manual intervention, because somebody might do m R period, which is going to be different than m r, which is gonna be different than and And folks might spell something out that the the the the organization wants to abbreviate standard Lee. So all right,

[00:18:10.54] spk_2:
things like that. So that’s for submissions, for surveying,

[00:19:03.14] spk_0:
for really trying, okay, for, you know, in the pick list versus straight narrative. You know, uh, where where the pick list might be appropriate, like people, organizations getting thousands of submissions a month or something. You know, huge organizations where it’s gonna be burdensome to look at each one and put something in specific to that field for each one. But if you’re getting, you know, like 10, 10 or 15, or maybe even 100 donations a month or or submissions of whatever type nations donations, submissions, you know you can you can do that. You can You can do it right in the field. You know, in an hour somebody can go through 100 of them. I mean, it’s all right. So, you know, we’re not, uh, the Cleveland Clinic where we’re getting 10,000 relations or something. All right, so let’s, you know, the the, uh, be open minded there in terms of what you how you can accept the data. Okay. I’m sorry. Yeah, sure.

[00:21:36.34] spk_2:
So? So we’ve talked about submissions, and then they’re surveying. So in surveying, it’s really useful to get as comprehensive as you can Data on gender. And so there are a lot of gender fields that you can include on a survey field. And another reason why I point this out is that, um, people in general, if they’re trying to just get the thing done like they just want to donate, they just want to do their submission. Um, then, uh, then you don’t want to make your form. Actually, you know what? I’m going to modify that with donation forms. It’s definitely a best practice to make them as short as possible and to ask for and certainly to require as few fields as possible for submission forms. You can be a lot more flexible with that because the person really wants to submit their thing right. They’re probably going to be willing to go through a few pages of questions in order to get their thing Surveys. Also, people enter into a survey. You know they’ve opted into taking a survey you can reasonably take, you know, a few minutes of their time and give them some pretty comprehensive questions and give them some comprehensive options for for answers. So for gender fields there, um, it’s It’s an increasingly recommended practice to have a lot of different gender, uh, gender. Identify as gender terms that people can multi, multi select and then, as always, because you know why not? It’s really important to to and to include a right in field. Um, because you cannot always be certain that you are covering every term and also because language evolves. So, um, in addition to a write in field, there are a lot of terms that people use for their gender. So male female are sometimes associated with sex identification. But some people also may say that my gender is male or my gender is female. Man and woman certainly. Um, sis man. CIS woman The term cysts, which, for people who are unfamiliar, means not trans somebody who identifies as the same gender as as they were assigned at birth. Um, And, uh, so it’s CIS trans, uh, trans masculine transfeminine. There are a lot of terms that you can find with a really easy google. Um, and for all that, I don’t know how much I want to plug Facebook. Um, but so you know what I want, But, um, but there are a lot of organizations and a lot of companies that have gotten on board with offering a lot of different gender options, and you can pretty easily find comprehensive lists of gender, uh, terms and gender identities.

[00:21:56.54] spk_0:
And again, can’t you just simplify this by having it? Strictly narrative.

[00:22:00.34] spk_2:
You can. Um but then again, the analysis part comes in. All right, so

[00:22:06.82] spk_0:
yeah, manually. Yeah,

[00:22:08.21] spk_2:
exactly. So if

[00:22:09.41] spk_0:
you know how many I mean, are you getting it? Well, all right. If you’re getting 1000 1000 I could see Burdensome. Yeah.

[00:22:59.24] spk_2:
Yeah, exactly. So if you want, for example, to see, like within certain zip codes, what is the gender breakdown of our audience? or our base. Right? So, you know, in these areas where we’re doing certain kinds of work, we actually have a pretty significant trans population. Who is Who is paying attention? Who we have contact with, You know, over in this area, Um, there’s a significant population of CIS gender women who are really interested in our work. Um and so if you want to be able to kind of, um, do analyses like that, it is helpful to have predefined terms, But you do want to make sure that you have a lot of comprehensive ones. Okay.

[00:22:59.87] spk_0:
Okay. Anything else? Best practice wise,

[00:23:12.34] spk_2:
Um, pronoun fields. Or is this the place where we can get into pronoun films? Sure. Okay, great. So one kind of under, uh, well, in certain places under discussed, we’re

[00:23:18.59] spk_0:
seeing that structure that, like, I’m not going to allow a program discussion at this point. But we wait 2.5 minutes, Then we can talk about pronouns in in into the six minutes, but yeah, I hope I don’t come across that

[00:25:12.14] spk_2:
way. Um, but yeah, pronouns are really important. There are more important in a lot of situations than any of this other stuff. Um, because pronouns is how people are addressed. It’s as important as people’s names. So anywhere where you would want to know, you know you’re going to be addressing somebody by their name. You also want to know their pronoun. Um, and there are a variety of ways that you can create opportunities to learn people’s pronouns. So if it’s, uh, it’s having to do with an event, um, you can ask for pronouns on the on the event registration form if you’re going to have the ability to say, like in a world where we have in real life events again, if you’re if you’re going to make people badges or things like that, you can also ask it, like when people arrive at an event when they log on to a virtual event, Um, in platforms like Zoom and other video video conferencing platforms, people can add their pronouns in their name. You can request that they do it. You can model it by doing it yourself and, uh, and you also in live events settings can again offer things like badges. Um, it’s also really it’s also very possible, and sometimes people feel uncomfortable about this or don’t know how to do it, but to ask for people’s pronouns in real life just in a conversation. And I think that the easiest way to do that is to offer yours first. So to approach someone and say, Oh, hi. By the way, my pronouncer, they Then what are your pronounce? Um, And it models the behavior it makes it into, You know, this is the thing that we’re doing together rather than sort of like, um, what pronouns do you use, right. You know, these are my pronouns. What are your pronouns? Um and, uh, yeah. There are a lot of opportunities to do that in a group setting, doing a go around at the beginning and asking people to introduce themselves with their names and their pronouns. Um, these are all things that people can do.

[00:25:24.94] spk_0:
Okay? And it becomes no harder to remember than people’s names. So exactly just slip up on, you know, you might slip up on the names 20 people in a group. You’re not gonna remember all 20 names if there’s no badges. So how to pronounce you say Oh, sorry. I think, actually, I’m sorry. I thought it was her, you know, you know, whatever.

[00:25:41.34] spk_2:
And you and there are millions of names, there are millions of names and only a handful of, of of commonly is pronouns in each language. So you know what? You really can do it.

[00:25:53.21] spk_0:
Okay? Yes, yes, But if you make a mistake, right? I mean, it’s not Yeah, Don’t crucify yourself. Just Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:25.24] spk_2:
I actually recommend really short script for if people make a mistake. So if you make a mistake in front of the person you’re talking about, you can say, Oh, I’m sorry. Thank you for reminding me. And then you use their their correct pronoun going forward if it’s in. You know, if they’re not there and someone informs you, owe that person actually uses he him pronouns, you can say, Oh, thank you for letting me know. And you use he him pronouns going forward. Right? Um, you thank the person for letting you know they’ve gone out of their way to do it. They might be kind of sticking their neck out to point that out. It can be uncomfortable. So you thank them for doing it. If the person who you mis gendered is right there. You say I’m sorry. And then you move on. You don’t have to grovel. You don’t have to, you know, suddenly make them the center of attention. You don’t have to make yourself the center of attention. Just apologize. Thank them and move on.

[00:27:01.04] spk_0:
Very practical. This is becoming sort of a 10101 on. Uh, correct. Excuse me. Correct. Not only pronoun usage, but, you know, addressing the trans community. Yeah. Um, all right, we have we have a couple of minutes. What do you want to leave folks with wrap us up? Um,

[00:27:06.19] spk_2:
sure. Well, I have a I have an anecdote where I had, like, a uniquely pleasant experience. Um, you

[00:27:15.81] spk_0:
ended with a crummy. You started with a crummy experience, so and yeah, and upbeat. Excellent. Yeah,

[00:28:13.94] spk_2:
exactly. So I was I was talking to a canvasser who was helping me fill out a donation form on a tablet, and that person was actually filling out the form and asking me the questions. And they said, Oh, by the way, we have an optional salutation field and we have mix available MX, which is the gender neutral salutation. Would you would you like to enter a salutation? And no one had said anything like that to me before. Just, like asked, Would you like to and said, We have a gender neutral one available and it just it made my day. It was no effort whatsoever that organizations part. It took two seconds, and I transfer like transforming an experience from a negative one where they’re not going to get my donation into a positive one where they get my donation and I feel really, positively about that organization is no effort. There’s no reason not to do it.

[00:31:33.24] spk_0:
That’s perfect. Let’s let’s let’s leave it there. Great charmer CRM manager at the Center for Popular Democracy. Thank you very much, Jude. Thanks. Sure, Thank you. My pleasure. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology conference were sponsored by Turn to Communications. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for a break turn to communications relationships turned to has them with places like the Chronicle of Philanthropy, CBS Market Watch, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times Turn to his clients get placements because of their relationships. So when there’s a reason for you to be in the news or you need to be in the news for your own reason, turn to can leverage these relationships on your behalf. You’re more likely to get coverage that way than you are, calling them up cold on your own. So use the relationships that turn to has to your benefit. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony. Take two. How are you doing? A few folks got back to me, but I’m curious to see if there’s more. And I did hear from some insiders as well again the those, uh, those folks who get the weekly insider alerts telling who the guests are each week. So how are you Anything you want to share about your experience through the pandemic vaccines? You got one. Your family. Was there any sickness in your family? How’s it looking? Planning to go back to the office? Are you planning that yet? Is your office planning it? Are they planning without you? Do you know, maybe maybe they’re planning it without you and you don’t know. In that case, you won’t be able to bring that up to me. But if they’re planning, then you do know and you’re included. How’s the feeling? So I’m interested in how you are as we, uh, begin to see the end of this although fourth surge seems likely. Yeah, plus the pleasantries gotta go out. Right? The podcast. Pleasantries. I’m still enjoying sending these out to you. So I am grateful that you are with nonprofit radio, and I’m gratified that non profit radio is helping you in your work. That’s why I do the show. So pleasantries to you, all of our podcast listeners, each of you individually and then collectively as well. Pleasantries to you. That is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for nonprofit radio. Here is ethical representation in your communications. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot c o. With me now is calliope Glaros.

[00:31:35.94] spk_1:
She is principal

[00:31:39.94] spk_0:
at Philanthropy without Borders. Helio P Welcome.

[00:31:41.44] spk_1:
Thank you, Tony. I’m so excited to be here.

[00:32:07.94] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure. Pleasure to have you. I’m glad you’re part of 21 NTC and our coverage, your topic is from exploitation to empathy, ethical representation in fundraising, communications. This is a concern. What? What do you feel? Nonprofits are not getting quite right around authentically representing people and issues.

[00:32:50.84] spk_1:
Yeah, well, you know, this is a big topic right now, Tony, and there’s a lot of people who are talking about it, but I think my approach is a little bit different for me. It’s not about making cosmetic changes to the images, you know, just showing happy faces instead of sad faces. And it’s also not about sort of superficial changes to language like replacing some words over others. I really approach this topic from the lens that what happens behind the scenes in your storytelling process is just as important as what the audience sees. And so this isn’t about making tweaks to the final narrative. It’s really about working in collaboration with your story contributors to truly understand how they want their stories told. So it’s very much about process, not product

[00:33:00.34] spk_0:
process. Okay, so we could have better processes back end to alleviate appearance problems and and messaging problems that are that are going, going public,

[00:33:41.14] spk_1:
right? I think it’s a fundamental mindset shift. And so, you know, we know that our industry has this issue with representation. We know that a lot of people who work in fundraising and marketing departments have never personally experienced hunger or housing instability or displacement or war. But they’re telling stories about people who have. And so, you know, some of the sort of, I guess, like common sense out there is to think about How would I want my story told, Um, but I don’t really represent some of the people that I’m necessarily writing about. And so it’s this fundamental shift from, you know, not really centering ourselves and our own lived experience, uh, in the stories that we’re telling and really turning towards towards our contributors and looking for guidance from them in how we tell their stories.

[00:33:54.31] spk_0:
Okay, and by contributors you’re thinking of of who?

[00:34:30.44] spk_1:
The actual people that are interviewed by the nonprofit whose stories you’re sharing. If you’re writing about specific people or also the people who are just in your programs, maybe you don’t tell stories about a particular individual or you use like a non identifying case example, Um, but who are the people who are being impacted by your work, who are actually, um, you know, impacted by your mission, going to them and working in collaboration with them and really using their insight to guide how you make decisions, what kinds of stories you’re telling, how you’re talking about the issue, because they’re the ones who are actually experiencing it.

[00:34:33.94] spk_0:
So is it about the questions that you ask them to elicit their story?

[00:34:40.44] spk_1:
That’s a big part. That’s a big part of

[00:34:42.25] spk_0:
it. The communication with the folks that are contributing,

[00:35:01.04] spk_1:
right? So I think the very first thing that an organization has to do is to get feedback about their communications from the people in their programs. And so it’s not just not just interviewing them to get their stories, but actually going back and showing some of the communications that you’ve released and saying, What do you think about this? How satisfied are you with your portrayal? What would you like to see? Right. So even more open ended questions? Not just about, you know. Did you like this? You know. How did you feel it? You know it represented you, but What else would you like to see from us? Right, So get it. So they get feedback is the first step. But also, you know, if you really want to make an impact on your storytelling process, you have to almost create, like I call it a feedback channel. It’s not just about going in once and getting some feedback and, you know, putting it in a little report, and then it sits there. But but having a continuous process of working in collaboration with your contributors. So every time you’re getting stories, you’re also getting feedback, and you can continue to refine your stories in an ongoing way. That’s really the first step.

[00:36:21.33] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. So getting feedback from about the portrayals from the folks who are being portrayed Yes. Okay, interesting. So So that means including those folks on your in your communications. If you’re If you want to make this a regular process, you’re saying not just going one time, but regular have a regular feedback mechanism. So start bringing, adding folks who are the beneficiaries of your work to your e newsletter, for instance.

[00:38:05.42] spk_1:
I think that ultimately, you know, every organization should look at increasing you know, in long term increasing the representation of staff that they have who are responsible for communications. Those folks should, you know, be from those communities and should share some lived experiences and identities with the people who are impacted by that program. I think that’s the long term strategy. I know that you know it’s not going to change overnight. And so I think in the interim, it’s really about both the mindset shift and also creating some different processes. So I’ll give you some more concrete examples, tony. So get feedback. But also, um, a big mistake that a lot of non profits make is they view this concept of consent, right? You know, and we have this in journalism to write, you know, getting consent to tell someone’s story. They view this concept as a form, you know, it’s a one page form that somebody signs that says, I give permission for you to, you know, share my stories and my images, you know, in all of your platforms. And then and then it’s done and you know, that’s that’s not really I think, the most effective process that we could have. We need to view consent a bit more holistically. So for instance, um, you know, I do. How how are we getting people? How are we getting the stories to come to us? Right. And so instead of necessarily going up to someone you know in the program and saying, Hey, can we interview you or, you know, hey, can we have you speak at our next event? You know, how are we allowing people to opt in, if that’s possible, depending on the structure of your organization and your work? So are we allowing our story contributors to sort of self select into the process to sort of raise their hands, so to speak and say, Hey, I would like to be interviewed actually instead of us, um, asking them because you know, there’s power dynamics and sometimes people might feel like saying yes, when they really when you know, when they really don’t want to do something. But because you asked, they feel you know that they have to

[00:38:09.80] spk_0:
say Okay, so make it You’re suggesting Make it more an open question to to the group at large.

[00:38:16.45] spk_1:
Yeah, if it’s possible

[00:38:22.62] spk_0:
and let them and ask. You’re saying you know and then asking for volunteers to instead of going individually to a family or or or a person and saying, Can we tell your story?

[00:39:07.62] spk_1:
Right? Right. Let them volunteer. Let themselves select the option available. Another way consent can show up is even in. So the way stories work is you have an acquisition process where you go out and get the story. You’re actually interviewing people. You’re taking their photos and then on the back end inside a nonprofit, the stories go through this kind of interpretation process, right? You have, you know, the recorded interview or the notes you’ve taken. You’ve got all of these photos, and now you have to put that content into a newsletter or put it into a campaign, right? How are we involving our story contributors in that process? Are we letting them look at their story once we’ve edited it and put it into the campaign or the newsletter? Are we showing it to them and letting them make edits before we send it out before it goes live? Are we going back to them and saying Hey, here’s what. Here’s what we ended up writing. Here’s what we’re going to post What do you think? Are there any changes you’d like to make? How does this look to you? So are we involving them in that editing process?

[00:39:24.52] spk_0:
Is that is that not common? You think it’s not common, You know it. I would have thought the same process that folks used with their donors when they’re doing a donor. So I do fundraising. So I’m more on the donor side that I’m not on the beneficiary side, but with donor. When when fundraisers are doing donor testimonials, there’s lots of back and forth. You know, the same, you know.

[00:41:04.41] spk_1:
No, it isn’t. And you know you really hit on. I think a fundamental issue in this industry is that the way I define exploitation of my talk is that it means that we’re treating some groups better than others. And in the nonprofit space, we definitely treat our donors better than we treat our story contributors or a program participants. And so even if we think about this notion of consent, the way consent looks with donors is totally different than story contributors. So as I was saying, you know, many organizations have this kind of one page media consent form, and there are There are forms that actually say your consent is irrevocable. Once you sign this, we can use your image and story however we’d like and you can’t do anything about it. But that’s not how we treat our donors, right? You know, if our donors sign up for a newsletter and then they decide to opt out later, they can opt out at any time. You know, if they decide, you know, maybe they don’t mark. Their gift is anonymous. And so, you know, we we kind of release things. And then they say, Oh, actually, I don’t want that kind of recognition. Please, you know, um, don’t don’t add me to your annual report. Please make an anonymous. You know, we let our donors kind of opt in and opt out, and and we give them all kinds of controls and consent. But with our story contributors Nope. Your consent is irrevocable. You know, that’s what I really want to change, right? And I think that’s the last part of thinking about consent as a process. There’s opting in, you know, if possible in the story acquisition process, there’s involving them in the interpretation, like you said, with donors having back and forth and then at the end, you know, if years go by and we’re still using their face, you know, on the on the as the hero image on our website. And they say, you know, I don’t want to be on your website anymore. Why on earth can’t we take that image down, right? Why does someone’s consent have to be irrevocable? So you’ve really nailed it, tony. The way that we engage our donors and the control that we give our donors has not been the way that we’ve treated our program participants in our story. Contributors.

[00:42:06.70] spk_0:
Yeah. All right. Interesting. Uh, as I said, I’m only aware of the way it works on the donor side, and I would have thought that it was equivalent on the beneficiary providing side. All right. All right. Um, what else? What else you want to talk about? Not that we’re not. We’re not near the end, but I feel like, you know, you’ve been studying this and thinking about it for years, and I’m coming to it after just I mean, I’ve had another conversation with Amy Sample worried about specifically about poverty porn and avoiding avoiding that. Um, but that was more about images and your, You know, of course. You know, we’re talking more about process. So you think about this more than I do. Basically, what I’m trying to say. So what? What what more? What do you want us to know,

[00:45:01.09] spk_1:
Right, So there’s, I think, a couple a couple main points, Um, in the title of my talk, it goes from from exploitation to empathy. And so I view empathy as being on the other end of the spectrum of exploitation. But I think that this word is misunderstood in our industry. We hear it all the time. And, um, I think it’s misunderstood. And so I spend a little time talking about what empathy actually is. I think a lot of people think that when you have empathy with another person, it means that you are feeling exactly what they’re feeling. But then my question is, how do you know what someone else is feeling right? And what if you have very different lived experiences? I’m sure, um, you and many of our listeners you can think of a time where you’re sharing an experience with someone and they responded with like, Oh, I know exactly how you feel, You know, when this happened to me and then they describe something that was not at all what you experienced and you’re going like No, no, that’s that’s not it at all. Um, you know, or they blow it out of proportion and think like, Oh, that’s happening to you. Oh, I’m so sorry. Oh, you must be devastated and you’re going. No, no, I’m not right people, you know. Are they projecting how they would feel if they experience what you experience? It’s not what you would feel. And so the way that I approach empathy, you know, in this topic and how it’s related to storytelling actually comes from the work of sociologist Milton Bennett, who distinguished between a sympathy and empathy by saying that sympathy assumes similarity when we’re embodying sympathy were practicing the golden rule. We’re treating other people the way we want to be treated, because we assume that they are similar to us, and in empathy. We treat other people the way they want to be treated because we assume they’re different from us. And as I was saying earlier, we really need to be assuming difference instead of similarity, because the lived experiences and the identities of the people who are responsible for telling the stories, fundraising and marketing staff in the nonprofit, um, are oftentimes very different from the lived experiences of the people that they’re telling stories about. Um And so you know, there’s advice out there that I refute, which is, you know, thinking about how would I want my story told, How would I feel if this story was about me and, um moving that that’s really more embodying sympathy and so moving from sympathy to empathy requires that we ask better questions? Um, those questions could look like, you know, how would I feel if I was telling the story and the person that it’s about was sitting right next to me? Or, you know, if I was talking to a donor about this story, and, you know, one of our clients walked into the room suddenly, is there anything about the story that I would change right? Do I tell, Do I tell stories differently to donors? Then then you know, when a client is present versus when they’re not, um, in those hypothetical situations were still. We’re still us. We’re not projecting our experience on to someone else. And so those are the better questions that we could ask. And that’s, you know, there are so many ways that I think in the nonprofit sector and in storytelling, we embody these sympathetic responses and we assume similarity. And we assume that our experience is universal and we’re some kind of a baseline. And really, um, it’s not the case. So I think that’s one main point

[00:45:22.39] spk_0:
that’s almost from like we could say, from from narcissism to empathy,

[00:45:24.88] spk_1:
right, Right

[00:45:41.19] spk_0:
way I experienced something. Must be the way you experienced it or or the way I feel about what you’re describing, because I’ve never experienced it personally the way I feel about what your what Your what your situation is, must be the way you are feeling about it exactly, because because I’m the center of the universe. So naturally, my feelings are the same as your yours would be the same as mine, you know?

[00:46:25.18] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s projection, and I think it’s at the pitfall. It’s you know, we all have, like, interpersonal examples of conversations we’ve had, and the reason I bring it up and that I go to the trouble of defining it is because I think that that basic perception, um, is what is it the pitfall of all of the mistakes that we make, um, in mass communications and in the way that we represent other people. Um, you know, it’s kind of using ourselves as a baseline and not really thinking about sort of the differences in our lived experience. Um, so that’s so that’s one

[00:46:30.88] spk_0:
thing. Uh, yeah. Distinguishing between exploitation and sympathy and

[00:46:33.01] spk_1:
empathy, Empathy,

[00:46:41.68] spk_0:
um and, well, your point know about gauging asking feedback. I mean, just how does this story look to you?

[00:48:25.37] spk_1:
Right. You know, we don’t know how other people want to be treated unless they tell us. And that’s the thing. If we’re just guessing, just guessing it’s still a projection. Um, you know, and I think the other thing that was really important in my session is I think the way that people think about ethical storytelling and moving beyond this kind of narrow scope. And so I think originally our concept of ethical storytelling was informed by journalism, which is really looking at a policy of do no harm so it’s make sure you get consent. Make sure that you’re not traumatizing the story contributor. Respect people’s privacy and boundaries, you know when you’re interviewing them. But in nonprofit fundraising, storytelling, this kind of do no harm is really our baseline. You know, that’s the least we could be doing an ethical storytelling. I think, to go up another level, we need to be adding value. We need to be providing value to the story contributor. And that doesn’t necessarily just mean, um, you know, paying them a monetary stipend. That is a good process for some organizations. It works for some, but not all. Um, but how are we making this an enriching experience? How are we making? Giving them a platform to to share their story and experience in a way that, um, that feels positive and makes them want to do it again? That it was a good experience for them. Right. So how are we providing value? Um, and then, really, the layer above that I think what we ultimately need to be aiming for an ethical storytelling is changing the beliefs and behaviors of our audience. And so we know that there are massive inequities in the world. And those inequities are influencing our work there, influencing our program participants. And you know, these are large, systemic issues, but they’re maintained and held into place by certain beliefs and behaviors. And how are our story’s changing those beliefs and behaviors? How are we pushing back against unhelpful narratives that say it’s okay to treat some people better than others? That’s what we really need to be aiming for.

[00:48:56.87] spk_0:
What’s your opinion of giving folks the option to just tell their own story? Maybe, you know, turn the camera on themselves and just tell their story as they as as they want to. Yeah, I think it’s in their own words.

[00:49:00.14] spk_1:
I would think that would be

[00:49:01.16] spk_0:
valuable.

[00:49:34.97] spk_1:
I think that the closer that we can get to honoring that sort of authenticity, um, and the autonomy of our story contributors. So yeah, letting, letting them speak in their in their own words, tell their story in their own manner. The closer we can get to that the better. Um, I also know that you can’t fit everything into a tweet, and you can’t fit everything onto a one or two page campaign letter and so I know, uh, forms and opportunities that are are great just for really authentic sharing. And then there’s some that we do have to, um, you know, interpret for our audience. So,

[00:50:10.86] spk_0:
yeah, I mean, it could be the It could be the person’s personal narrative with, you know, with context, right? Exactly. Exactly. Right. I mean, there is a purpose behind these two. We are trying to We we are using these stories to raise money. So I mean, they have you know, we’re not just trying to create an archive. Uh, we’re not creating writing a documentary where this is market driven, market driven content, but the person could use their own words. And then and we fill in with lots of context.

[00:50:36.36] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that was some advice that I gave in my talk as well is really trying to stay. Give the story contributor autonomy as much as you can, and let them use their own words and let them, you know, tell the story the way that they want. And of course, you know, there are shifts that we you know, there are different things that we could do in our interview process. is there are shifts that we can make into the kinds of questions that we ask. Um, but it really should be about giving more autonomy, uh, to the story contributor and honoring their authenticity.

[00:50:44.56] spk_0:
Your session description mentions five actions to tell more ethical and equitable stories. Are those things we can talk about in five minutes?

[00:55:08.44] spk_1:
They sure can. And so I think one of them we already touched on, which was to create or fix your feedback channel right to make sure you’re getting feedback. And if you’re already getting feedback, make sure that it’s done in a consistent way. Um, and that in specific. And I would also say to the listeners, You know, consider having kind of like a control and a test group. And so you know there’s power dynamics at play, right? And when we go to some of the people in our programs and ask for feedback because they’re receiving services from our organizations, those people may be inclined to tell us what we want to hear. Um, and so I get a lot of questions about addressing power dynamics, and there’s there’s not necessarily a lot we can do about about those dynamics. But I would also not just ask people who are, you know, in your programs who are receiving services from your organization, but also ask people either within the community or people who embody some of the identities or lived experiences of those people. But they’re not getting services and and see what they think about your communications. Um, if everyone in your programs are saying, Oh, these look great, you know, great job. And then other members of the community are going No, these are so stereotypical, you know, these are you know, there’s a really this isn’t representative, right? That’s some interesting data. And so don’t just ask people in your programs. But as people outside of your programs, Um, I think, yeah, feedback. And you know, 0.2 is view consent as a process, not just a form. Right. First, take a look at your form and make sure you’re not saying you know that that their consent is irrevocable because it really isn’t. Um, you know, look at ways that you can incorporate consent into your entire process from the moment you’re getting the story, the editing and interpreting it’s going through, and then even long after it’s used. You know, can someone ask for things to be taken down? Um, I think you know, Number three gets at that last point that I made around ethical storytelling, you know, sort of beyond the baseline, Really changing beliefs and behaviors. Um, I really encourage everyone to push back against harmful or unhelpful narratives. And so what are the assumptions that exist about the people in our programs? Um, about their situations. Are those assumptions really? Are they helping us move our work forward or not? And if they’re not, then how are we pushing back? Um, think about the stories that we’re not telling, right. We’ve got all the stories we’re telling, but what are what are the stories we’re not telling? Um, you know, how are our stories shaping the expectations for both our donors in terms of what is required for change? Um, you know what does what does impact look like? What does change look like often our work. You know, change doesn’t happen overnight, But if we’re saying that to our donors, you know you’re going to transform someone’s life, you know, in a day, you know, that’s not really That’s not really reasonable expectation. Um, you know, and also, you know, our clients and story contributors see themselves in these stories were not hiding them from them. And so what kind of expectation are we setting for them? Right. So pushing back against a harmful, unhelpful narratives, harmful and unhelpful narratives and then really like looking at every communication and saying, Is this message reinforcing those narratives or is it challenging them? The fourth piece of advice they gave, um, was being the microphone and not the voice. It’s kind of a proverbial It’s a metaphor. And so you know, you you see these communications, tony. Like where the voice for the Children were, the voice for the poor, you know, and all of these people have voices. They have. They have a way of expressing themselves, and so you’re not really speaking on their behalf, but you are providing them a platform and amplifying their message. And so being a platform being a microphone and not a voice means that you have to as a as a storyteller, as someone in your organization, um, tasked with that, you have to analyze your own perspective. You have to be thinking about what’s influencing my perspective on this. Right? Um, you have to be. You know, when you start making generalizations about a group you have to be looking at, like, how do I know that? How do I know? You know, what I’m saying is real. Where’s my evidence? What am I basing this off of, Right. So understanding. You know what kind of a microphone you are? Right? And, you know, then your final one, we have the final one. That’s right. You know, we need to stay committed to changing beliefs and behaviors because it’s not going to happen overnight. But we’re playing the long game, and that’s really what we ultimately need to be striving. Oh, okay.

[00:55:12.84] spk_0:
Okay. You cut out a little bit there, but changing changing behaviors.

[00:55:16.72] spk_1:
We need to stay committed to changing beliefs and behaviors,

[00:55:25.14] spk_0:
beliefs and behaviors. Thank you. All right, All right. That’s a lot. But that was good. Calliope. Terrific. Thank

[00:55:25.76] spk_1:
you. Thank you so much. Tony,

[00:56:39.54] spk_0:
Your opening eyes. You’re raising consciousness about potential exploitation and helping us avoid it in our in our processes. Thank you. Kelly O P. Glaros principal at Philanthropy Without Borders. Yeah. Thank you very much again. Thank you. And thanks to you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC where were sponsored by turn to communications, turn hyphen two dot c o Next week Fund volunteer activities as 21 NTC coverage continues. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty. Be with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great