Tag Archives: equity

Special Episode: Tech Equity

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Tech Equity

Amy Sample Ward

NTEN has a new guide on equity for nonprofit technology, to deepen the racial equity conversation. To explore and reveal intersecting inequities between technology and nonprofits. You know who my guest is. You know who it has to be. Amy Sample Ward, NTEN’s CEO and our technology contributor.

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[00:01:31.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism and white privilege. Tech Equity and 10 has a new guide on equity for non profit technology to deepen the racial equity conversation to explore and reveal intersecting inequities between technology and non profits. You know who my guest is? You know who it has to be. It’s a me sample ward and tends CEO and our technology contributor response erred by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives, raise more money, change more lives for a free demo and a free month. It’s my pleasure. Always a privilege to welcome Amy Sample Ward to the show. She is our social media and technology contributor and CEO of her most recent co authored book is social Change Anytime everywhere, which is actually running a little old Now you’ve been resting on that laurel for a while.

[00:01:34.73] spk_0:
I was gonna say the same thing. I was gonna say, Gosh, I just looked at the book the other day and saw how many years ago that came out. I think we have to like, we gotta find some other filler sentence for that intro.

[00:01:48.29] spk_1:
Oh, you don’t want to write a new book. We just

[00:01:50.23] spk_0:
What? What? What is there? What would I write a book about? You know?

[00:01:56.14] spk_1:
Oh, you’re a bright person. Oh, there’s more to say about technology. You could go deeper into technology subject, but it’ll be a lot easier if tony-martignetti just changed your intro.

[00:02:06.05] spk_0:
Yeah, then there’s no like writing.

[00:02:16.94] spk_1:
Alright. No six months of writing, collaborating, finding publishers. None of that imagine. Imagine the eat that I could let you off the hook with on Dhe. You’ll find her, of course, at Amy Sample Ward dot or GE and at a me RS ward, the not so recent author. Any simple words?

[00:02:26.34] spk_0:
How you doing

[00:02:26.76] spk_1:
out there? Portland,

[00:03:27.24] spk_0:
You know, after feels, I think it feels kind of moment to moment in Portland. Whether it’s Portland, especially inspired or scared or motivated or ready to just hunker down in the house and never leave again. You know, it’s kind of Ah, a many front situation happening in Portland right now between fires and protests. And cove it, of course, and so many things. So you know, it’s it’s interesting to visit as a team, and 10 has 15 staff and nine of us are in the Portland metro area and six are all over the U. S. So, um, you know, we’ve got staff in Seattle in San Francisco and New York and all these other places, so it feels like every day when staff meet, you know, there’s there’s kind of, like our correspondents out in the field reporting in from all the different the different corners of all these different issues, you know, And it kind of helps everybody feel connected and informed in, like, a real way versus Oh, I saw this random article that got tweeted. You know, it’s like, No, you’re really in that city. What’s it feel like? You know,

[00:04:02.44] spk_1:
you’re the 1st 30 minutes of your staff meetings were probably what’s happening in San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Right in Portland for those outside. Yeah. Um, okay, let’s talk about equity equity and technology

[00:04:06.94] spk_0:
sounds again.

[00:04:11.64] spk_1:
So how did N 10 get into this guide.

[00:06:35.54] spk_0:
Well, since we’re talking about this for the whole show, I’ll tell you the long story version and that is that a number of years ago, actually, in 2016 a tw the end of that year you may remember something of note happened that has shifted some of the direction of our country and we twice a year. All staff have, like, come together in person. If you could remember what what being in person with other people was like on the board also has to in person meetings a year and at the staff and the board in person time. At the end of 2016. We did this kind of like a visioning exercise, But it’s not the type where we were trying to create a new strategic plan envisioning specific toe intend, but mostly saying, like, What do we think is gonna get worse in the sector? What is there anything that’s going to get better? Are the things they’re going to stay the same just like what? What’s the environment we’re working in? And then from there, what kind of role could we play in service to that? Because then 10 really sees our work as community centered in service to the community and the number one opportunity that came out from both the boards work and the staff’s work. Waas being a leader in talking about or putting forward information about that intersection of ethics and equity and what we are doing. We’re using technology tools that are also being used. Bite people holding kids in cages were using technology tools that are making a ton of money off of us were you know, like all of these pieces, that whether we can change those things or not, we can at least name those things and equipped folks to better understand them and talk about them and make decisions to kind of navigate what all those implications are for their staff and for their community. So we started really elevating that type of content in articles and, you know, within the community a lot of NTC sessions on Dhe. Then last year in 2019 it was like, Okay, it’s really time for something that folks could like, you know, print and hold in their hand and say, like there’s a lot of ideas here for me to work with, you know, something more than individual sessions or articles. So we put together really diverse and honestly, just like super cool. Like I loved getting to talk to all these people working group of community members, folks that work, you know, in in building tools and using tools that, you know, all all across the spectrum. There have.

[00:07:23.00] spk_1:
Ah, a lot of the work group members were We’re have been guests. Oh, really? That’s awesome. Raj Aggarwal, Tracy Krohn Zach Tristan Penn who works for in 10 Jason Shim Ruben Sing. And they have all been guests. Yeah,

[00:07:25.21] spk_0:
well, look at you. You’re pulling the right people. You know,

[00:07:28.79] spk_1:
we are. I am. We are. Yes.

[00:07:33.54] spk_0:
So we had this big working group on dhe. Really? Just went through a lot of, you know, idea intake and try and kind of synthesize that and then regroup and talk it through and brainstorm or things. And, you know, I think what ultimately came out is a guide. I know we kind of talked about this before, but just to name why we named it that. Yeah, Report

[00:07:59.24] spk_1:
versus guide. Okay. We’ll talk about that.

[00:08:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, we I mean, we really wanted to create something and make clear that even this thing we’ve put out is probably gonna look different six months from now as the sectors that were working in change as we as organizations changes, people change, you know, there might. We might feel there’s more things we can add to it. There might, because it feels like it becomes the standard and we don’t need to name it anymore, and ADM. Or, you know,

[00:08:32.42] spk_1:
right it sounds artificial to say it’s a report on equity racial inequity in technology used by non profits. E think of the conversation.

[00:09:39.44] spk_0:
The other piece that we really wanted to acknowledge in this is that it is not like it’s not comprehensive. This, like in so far, is like this is not the list. You know, there’s nothing else to dio that would improve equity. Um, and you know, it’s not the things that are included there. We really are like bumpers or directional guides. They don’t tell you what the policy should be, because ultimately the specifics of the policy you’re gonna be based on your organization and your staff. And how many staff do you have? And where do they were? You know, there’s all these other pieces that we don’t know, But we can tell you like Don’t go past this bar, you know, stay within these bumpers on dhe that will get you going in the right direction. So ultimately downloading or reading on the on the website, the Equity guide is just like the jumping off point to a lot of work. It is not already the work for you. You

[00:09:53.84] spk_1:
know, I was very careful to when I was writing the description, I wanted to say to reveal intersecting inequities, not reveal the intersecting inequities again. A ZX If it’s if it’s the finally

[00:10:03.32] spk_0:
the only ones. Yeah,

[00:10:37.54] spk_1:
right. This is all. There’s no more exploration to do now. You’re like like the entire white privilege. Racism, conversation. It’s a It is a It’s a conversation. It’s a journey. You know, Every guest I’m talking about these issues with says the same thing. No, of course. And I know you and I have talked about it. It’s long term. It’s not a check off item, it’s it’s maybe never done, but it Z it’s consciousness. It’s working through policies. It’s having difficult conversations, so there isn’t going to be a definitive guide and definitive report record, right?

[00:11:06.34] spk_0:
You want this to, of course, be used at organizations that maybe haven’t done a lot of investing specific Teoh Mawr Equitable outcomes internally or with their community as well as organizations who feel like they really have, you know, and 10 has really deeply and across the organization invested in equity work. We look at this list and are like shit, man, there’s a whole lot of work to dio, right? Like any organization, No matter how much you’ve already started or gone down that journey, it is forever work. So there’s tons on within the guidelines where we think, Oh, that’s we We’ve done something there. But now that we’ve done something, we can see how much more we could do there, right? We could see what even further down each of those roads could could be for us. So and this has to

[00:11:36.79] spk_1:
be continuing work because, right, it’s just as just the same as your um propagating your values, the organizational values when so when, when racial equity becomes a value, you don’t say your values have an end game. The value of, um, I’m trying to separate it from

[00:11:58.03] spk_0:
before. I mean, I think it’s a really great way to think about it, thinking about racial equity, the value, because all the other values you may have, you know, whatever they are, joy, you know, whatever. You also don’t see them as having a singular definition. You don’t say old equals this. You say, Hey, in this decision we’re trying to make right now, what would bold look like? Bold is our is our value. What would bold look like? Right. So why why wouldn’t we also say the same thing about equity and say, hey, in this situation in this decision, whatever we’re working on, what is that what you look like here? You know?

[00:12:35.84] spk_1:
Right. Okay. I just had the servant Ah ha. Moment around naming equity as a value of the organization on dhe. Therefore, and as you just described, all the other values don’t have in points checkoffs. Yeah, completion statements. Why would racial equity? Uh, okay. It was a bit of a moment for me. Sorry.

[00:12:58.65] spk_0:
I’m glad I could be here. I’m trainable, e.

[00:13:08.54] spk_1:
I swear I’m trainable. All right. Um, so equitable technology. So you talk about, um, inequities that intersect between the non profit community, non profit work and technology. That’s that’s the That’s what we’re trying to elucidate here in this in this guide that the way those two circles intersect

[00:16:42.54] spk_0:
Mhm. Okay, you know, I think that a lot of in equity, especially in equity related to our technology, gets overshadowed. Like every other instance in organizations, we kind of look less at the technology because we’re focused almost exclusively on programs. And so we’re saying, you know, just like we do in budget conversations or anything else. You know, there’s this focus on programs, and so equity looks like how racially diverse are our participants or something like that, which is important. And I’m not saying Don’t look at that. But that’s not the end of what equity means in your organization, especially when we start talking about technology. Because if you’re providing service is or programs to a racially diverse group of community members and you’re using a technology tool, you know you’re using ah database, for example, where they register on your website for those programs. And it requires they enter certain data that some groups either don’t have or feel really untrusting trying to give that data to you. And you’re not thinking that through that right there is already a nen equity, right you are. You are trying to discourage certain people even though you don’t maybe recognize it, or or unconsciously making the decision to do it. You are discouraging groups of folks from participating in your programs just because of that technology decisions, you know, So technology doesn’t operate just visit’s itself. You know, it’s not just the hammer sitting on the shelf. It is what’s allowing you to do your work to communicate with people. Thio Get them registered for that program, whatever it is, And we can’t let go of technology being that instrumental to all of our other decisions. Otherwise, we’re not going to acknowledge, like, really what’s influencing the outcome there. And, of course, then we think about, you know, non profits and the the technology sector. I think one big area that we talked a lot about in the working group WAAS organizations aren’t inclusive in the ways they make decisions, so so often we see non profits, not including community members in decisions about the way the program might run or the way the website might be redesigned. Those air, anything that involves the participants should have have those participants in the same process for the decision and the planning. But organizations so rarely do that. And then, on the technology side, we have a really not diverse group of people building these tools. So we’re having a real lack of inclusivity of any kind in the building of the tool, then being used by an organization whose not including all of the participants in the decision to use it or how to use it. Of course, it’s gonna enter some problems, right? Like there’s no way that that can’t be the outcome here. A very small group of people made it, and now an organization is using it kind of without their eyes open to it.

[00:17:21.84] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help you build relationships with journalists because of a relationship built by turn to the New York community. Trust got to features in the Wall Street Journal. That’s how well it works when you have the existing relationships turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Penna Pento, was an editor at The Chronicle of philanthropy. There are turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to tech equity. So let ZX spend a little time. Let’s let’s talk about the the guide itself. Oh, you you haven’t You haven’t organized for for users and for builders of technology and for funders,

[00:17:36.64] spk_0:
which is profit. Could be all three of those things, right?

[00:17:51.74] spk_1:
It certainly could, Absolutely. If you’re building technology and you make and you provide grants, you you fund fund people or organizations, of course, equitable text. So, you know, there’s a lot of you gotta look for listeners. You just got to get the guide. I mean, waken doom or than weaken then I can with authors, Right? Because those air 250 page books, this is not a 250 page guide. It maybe, maybe maybe in a couple of generations it will be,

[00:18:10.42] spk_0:
but so we can currently Currently I think it’s 27 pages.

[00:18:25.04] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So you got to get the guide. If you want to do this work, if you wanna be making be centering equity among all your other values as you make your technology decisions as you think about technology and the way it’s used in your organization or purchased in your organization, or maintained or used by those who you’re serving or any of your other constituents. And, you know, you gotta get the guide, obviously, which, uh, the guide we could just get the guided and 10 dot or ge right?

[00:18:46.24] spk_0:
Yep, totally free up on the website. If you go to end 10 or GE and then you click on resource is listed right there.

[00:19:09.44] spk_1:
Okay, so let’s talk about Equitable Tech Not assuming tech expertise. Yeah, training, you know, having equitable policies around use, um, providing money where a lot of organizations wouldn’t typically What? What? What are our concerns here? What do you what? The group

[00:19:17.49] spk_0:
we’ll talk

[00:19:18.24] spk_1:
about here

[00:22:23.24] spk_0:
that, you know, hiring folks whenever they think about having a more diverse staff. Racially diverse staff. They always think thio hiring new people because the place they’re coming from is a staff that isn’t diverse. Writer is predominantly white, and there’s this feeling that, like, well, so we’ll just not change any of our higher being process or change. Our organizational culture will just hire people of color through that process somehow which, if that If that was all that was gonna happen, then you wouldn’t be in the situation, right? Especially when it comes Thio technology roles. And that doesn’t mean that it’s like the I T director, as we talked about before it, you know, communications director is the technology staff person, right? Like they’re making lots of technology decisions all the way across an organization. So recognizing that the folks who have had all kinds of systemic access and encouragement to go to college to graduate from college, to graduate from college with a computer science or some other technical degree like guess who those people are super well resourced white men, right? Like that’s just been the reality we’ve had for decades. So if you’re hiring for roles that use technology and you’re saying that you require a college degree, you require a degree in some specific field that you, um, are expecting folks to apply and already have experience or knowledge of specific products, your you are signaling in that job description. We are looking for that well resourced white man, right, because while of course there’s like exceptions to that reality, that’s not you’re not going to necessarily find the exception in there, right? So what? What’s the difference in saying that someone has a college degree or not like, Are they having to write term papers for their job? Like, I don’t know that that isn’t necessary In 2020. I don’t know that we need to rely on those kind of outdated expectations. Nor do we need to say you already know how to use all the products that we use. Well, did all of your staff know how to use them when you bought them? No. You trained them. Why wouldn’t you train a new person? You know, so really investing in hiring great people who love your mission, want to do your work are from the community you serve and knowing that regardless of the position, regardless of the title, once you’re hired, we give you all the training you need to succeed. Not somehow. We think that you should magically already have all of that training. And that makes you the perfect candidate because the folks who would have had historical like jobs before that also use the same tools. Like all of those things are filtering towards the most privileged people. When you let go of all those expectations and say no, Like, we wanna hire great people who care about our work. And once you’re hired, well, make sure you’re successful. Like who wouldn’t want to work in that environment? A. And B, you’re opening it up for anyone, regardless of what their past jobs, maybe, or what tools those other nonprofits use. Like they could have great experience with databases just because that organization used a different one. You know that that shouldn’t preclude someone from getting a job.

[00:23:03.94] spk_1:
So let’s let’s flush this out more and and explore more. Uh, and I guess, I mean, I feel like I’m playing Devil’s Advocate. I didn’t intend to, but the

[00:23:04.37] spk_0:
devil doesn’t need an advocate. E think the devil’s okay? You just ask what you want to ask

[00:23:51.44] spk_1:
you. Uh, and the report, the guide is, um, even drills down to like, operating systems. You know that. Why would you have to say, Why do you need to say familiarity with or or proficient with the Microsoft Suite, Microsoft Office Suite of Tools? You know, because you could you could train that. I guess I’m thinking a little higher level a college degree college degree. So I’ve, you know, I’ve had this conversation with other guests to it might have even been Raj. Um, so this isn’t the first time, but it’s been a while. Yeah, a college degree. There’s certain skills and expertise that’s presumed from a college degree. So let’s not quibble about whether you know one college degree has means that the person can write and read and speak articulately and different. College degree means it doesn’t. That means they can’t. It doesn’t necessarily mean that. Let’s just assume that there’s that there’s a certain skill and expertise level and

[00:24:17.48] spk_0:
eso can you just skills.

[00:24:18.73] spk_1:
I mean, can you just commemorate the skills that you need without having to say you have to have a college degree to have acquired them?

[00:24:25.84] spk_0:
Right? Totally Skills E. I think that there is

[00:24:29.56] spk_1:
advocate really just flushing it out. So

[00:26:25.14] spk_0:
on there is a time and place. You’re saying you have this specific degree or specific certification because the job you’re applying for is a mental health worker, and you need to be certified in our state social work that keep those instances very specific and very separate from we’re hiding, hiring a communications director. We’re hiring a program manager. What does a college degree make or break for that role? Like I have a bachelor’s degree in literature like I in creative writing and I am the CEO of the technology organization. Like what? What’s the correlation there like? Yes, I’m very proficient at writing emails, but that’s not because I have an English degree. You know, like just name, name those skills. And I think it can also be very. I think organizations try to equate the tiered education system with their organizational tear. So they are reliant internally on a very archaic, perfect pyramid shaped or chart. And so they’re thinking, Well, if we’re gonna hire anyone you know in that leadership tier of the triangle, whether it’s see sweeter, you know, directors, whatever their title structure, as then those folks need to have like a master’s thio. Others people have, you know, only a bachelor. Why, I would argue someone who spent even longer in school versus out in the community or in the work force has less personal expertise, right, because they haven’t been doing it. So to try and like map to that, you know, and that then rolls into Well, then who gets those jobs? Also gets paid more because that work structure is also reliant on saying that people a different titles make a different amount of money

[00:26:38.43] spk_1:
forces the privilege of having

[00:26:40.78] spk_0:
exactly, exactly, exactly, it’s just a permanent circle. You know,

[00:26:47.14] spk_1:
some of the details like providing money for Internet connections, not assuming that people can afford that giving technology, not expecting it to exist when it’s required for work.

[00:27:08.22] spk_0:
Those things have certainly come up with these air like these are so many

[00:27:22.84] spk_1:
things that air sort of innocuous. I mean, like like asking for a college degree. It z well, it’s become so commonplace. Everybody has a cell phone. Everybody can afford Internet and high speed WiFi. But another of those things are true. So

[00:27:36.54] spk_0:
and and just because one has a phone that you have a staff of 10 people and all people when they were hired said they had a smartphone. What smartphone they have, what data plan they have, what, how many minutes they have, even like what functionality is available for That type of phone is probably not the same, and the idea that it’s just on them to use their personal phone. If there’s something that you you need someone to use, then you need to give it to them. We can’t operate in this world where whatever you personally already had or invested in is going to make or break your professional success. That’s that’s not going toe ever end inequitable way

[00:28:19.94] spk_1:
data, data usage you touched on it and you start to touch on the collection part. And while you were talking about collection, I was thinking about the individual questions that you ask, Do you have quickly binary male female? First of all, you need to even ask Do the gender matter. And But how? How narrow are the choices that you’re offering in that lots of other places. What do you What do you want to say about data?

[00:29:10.44] spk_0:
I feel like data is so tricky for organizations, you know, it’s It’s something that I think from, you know, a decade of the greater sector, talking about how organizations need to be data driven and data informed, and you know what data do you have? And you know, there’s just been such a focus in in a kind of a more FIC way that nonprofits need to really care about Jada, that they now really care about data. They don’t know why they care about it or necessarily, like what to do about it. There isn’t.

[00:29:18.64] spk_1:
Well, they’re gonna

[00:29:19.08] spk_0:
mind data practice,

[00:29:21.04] spk_1:
get a lot of data, and then we’re gonna mine it

[00:30:40.24] spk_0:
on. Then we’re gonna use We’re gonna upload it all into this like a I machine, and it’s gonna tell us who’s going to donate to us, who’s going to do whatever. Who’s gonna come to our programs? Yeah, but I think the very first piece, I would say, is not just acknowledging but truly accepting and making all of your decisions around data from the perspective that it is not yours. It is each of those people’s data and you, for a temporary amount of time, have access to it. If that is the place where you can make your decisions from that, you need to be doing everything in your power to protect it. To Stuart it to make sure they know what data you have that it’s clean and updated. Your your relationship to that data changes. And I think even just in that relationship change will get organizations on a better path, you know. And then once you’re in that mindset, it’s so obvious to say, Well, of course, those people should be controlling their data and able to edit it at any time or request that we delete it, you know, and don’t keep the record anymore, like you kind of roll out from there so many of the things that are in the guides just because it’s obvious. Once you have the mindset that it’s not your data,

[00:30:48.70] spk_1:
you know they own it, they own.

[00:31:16.84] spk_0:
And if it’s, there’s of course, you shouldn’t just offer binary options on gender or anything else, right, because you don’t know it’s not your data, so you can’t have already decided what the option is. You know, I think that mindset shift really influences a lot and open the door for you to say, Hey, the outcomes of this program aren’t ours to decide. Participants benefiting from our programs and service is actually get to decide what the outcome of that program was for

[00:31:31.04] spk_1:
them. Yes, that was a very interesting winning the guide that that who sets the metrics for success? What is success in our program or programs. What is it? How is it defined? Right, right,

[00:31:52.74] spk_0:
which I don’t think is is far from ideas that you have certainly thought about whether or not they’re They’re super like widely accepted now, But even in fundraising, right that like someone participating in that in a fundraise e or ah, donation relationship with you like you don’t necessarily have to say. Okay, well, your donating $10 and it’s specifically going to this, But what kind of thank you they want? What kind of recognition they want isn’t for you necessarily to decide it’s Do you want to be recognized? Do you want to be acknowledged? You know? So I think once we remember that as organizations, we are essentially the facilitators of change making. We’re not the ones who owned the data. Who owned the program? Who owned the success, who owned the impact? Like we let go of essentially a lot of a lot of pressure. Teoh be like fortune tellers or something and and future tellers and instead say, we’re facilitating this program. These participants air coming through and look, they’re like five different outcomes that were achieved. And it’s great not every single person had one outcome. They liked it in the same way. They’re gonna use it in the same way, like it’s all humans that were interacting with. And we need to We need to bring back that human focusing.

[00:33:15.84] spk_1:
This is related to funding. So you have a whole. You have several ideas for funders to think about to act on. What do you want to say to our institutional funders?

[00:33:18.74] spk_0:
Uh, you do have some work to dio

[00:33:54.14] spk_1:
time for our last break dot drives dot drives Engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives is the simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. It’s customizable, collaborative, intuitive. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships, get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. You know what we’ve got we’ve got but loads more time for tech equity.

[00:36:06.83] spk_0:
I think funders air in a tricky spot because not on Lee do all of the same Inequitable outcomes happen as faras using technology like there’s still a kind of non profit using technology and doing work, so they’ve got, like, all of that section of work to Dio, and they also have the relationship where they are investing in the sector. There’s there’s some shifts that I think need to happen there, especially for funders who are saying that they don’t invest in technology, not investing in technology. Like I think the last six months have shown what has happened to a sector that has been chronically under resourced and technology, and when a lot of organizations or getting donations or grants, that’s a You can’t use this on technology. Guess what? The outcome of that ISS the last six months. It is organizations who cannot continue to function, who I’ve already started closing their divorce, who cannot transition programs online and don’t know don’t have the internal capacity to do that. So we we just can’t any longer have grants that say, you can’t use this on technology like you can’t have a program without the database that stores all the participants in it. Why would the grant for that program not include the database? Right? It’s just ridiculous. Thes air these air, the necessary tools for programs success. They have to be part of every gram on dhe. I think the other piece that we’ve seen, We’re gonna We’ve seen funders try even just over the last number of years. And during the pandemic is we have solved this for you. We’ve chosen the tool, or we’ve chosen the consultant. And now, if you apply for this grant, what you actually get is for free. We’re going to give you this product that we, as the thunder have decided that you all will use. Or we’ve paid for this consultant who’s gonna go set this thing up for all of you. Why in any world would that be a successful strategy? You know, a single technology be known in advance to be the right tool for all this?

[00:36:17.45] spk_1:
Sounds like something that a company would do. And it would be more for a ZX the guy brings out. It would be more for visibility. That impact, right? If

[00:36:25.37] spk_0:
it’s such an easy route, right, its

[00:36:27.80] spk_1:
ability is your goal. Then that’s the I mean, I’m giving an answer to your rhetorical question,

[00:36:47.33] spk_0:
right? I mean, it’s honestly, like a lazy way to approach capacity building. You’re not accepting that there’s nuance in any of this work and that there would be differences and needs and you’re just saying like Here’s here’s one giant hammer. I hope it works for all of your work sites by you

[00:36:57.13] spk_1:
know, what about for technology creators? Way said earlier. Non profit could be. It could very well be a builder of technology as well.

[00:38:10.72] spk_0:
Mhm. Yeah, there are. I think it’s more common than, you know. Maybe the broader us really thinks about how many nonprofits are building technology because it may not even be technology that they sell, or even that they share or distribute. It could just be technology that they built for themselves to do something. But all the same kind of guidelines apply. You know, how are you building tools for unending use or an end community and not including those people in the process? There’s There’s just no way that it’s going that you could never assume it’s gonna work for those folks if those folks are not part of the process. Um, that doesn’t mean you need to have you know, 50 different people trying to be in the code on your website or something that you know, we’re not. We’re not saying that, but there are plenty of ways to include folks in scoping out what you’re gonna build testing it, piloting it, um, you know, making it over time. And the more of those folks that are included, the better the product will be. And and in the world of technology, I mean, success equals adoption. So if you really want it to be adopted, you really want people to successfully use it. Then you better be including them so that when it gets to them, it does work, and it is what they needed to be. Andi, I think

[00:40:12.86] spk_1:
I was talking about this in the early 19 eighties when when I was when I was getting the degree that I don’t use, which is from Carnegie Mellon degree, uh, information systems. I asked Economics and Information system, and we had to develop a creative build a project our fourth year. Our our senior project course was an inventory control system for the maintenance and Facilities Department. So we brought the users in who were not I mean, these guys. This is the guy who runs the inventory room, right? College degree. He wasn’t even white, but he was gonna be the he was gonna be. He’s one of the prime users. We were building this for it was a bunch of white. Mostly, I don’t know if it was mostly male, probably probably Waas, but this mostly male white group, you know, bringing this thing this man of color in tow help teach us how he does his job and how what we’re scoping out is going to impact his his work life on and teaching us, you know, teaching. But so we were talking about this in 1984 you know, bringing users. And that’s just the end user. There’s also the people who are entering data maybe not as users, but or not as recurring users, but as new users as benefit from your program as they check in for the meal or the overnight stay or the bag of uh huh of food. You know what, so right, Inclusive e. I mean, it was just called inclusive design,

[00:41:47.81] spk_0:
right? And how do you compensate those people? How do you acknowledge those people? How do you give them actual power in the process? You know, like again if we if we think about this as we’re just here as the facilitators of this work then it is clear that they should have our They should be able to influence our plans. You know, this isn’t just for the sake of saying we had some user group come in and five of five people and they gave us the feedback. You know, like, this isn’t This isn’t to check the box. This is to say, Hey, we’re the facilitators of change of the process and we’re here for you. So, like, let’s find the path. And I think, of course, that’s, like, so counter and scary to the old white dominant way of managing technology managing organizations, you know, Why would you ever give up control willingly? But I guess I’d argue. Like, what control do you really think you have? You know, like the idea that you’re giving up control. Well, right now, if you’re really trying to, like, hold everything in and make every decision internal. Are you having a tonic success? Like, have you met your mission? Is your mission all done like I don’t know that it’s something you really need to try and hold on to. Because if you can be far more centered on the community, you also have the benefit of Of likely accelerating that impact and more, more rapidly meeting your mission. Right? Because

[00:42:32.30] spk_1:
another word for controllers power. You’re giving up your surrendering power, which which so many people think you know, it’s it’s zero sum. So whatever I lose, you know, whatever I give up, I don’t have any more. But that’s like that’s like finding time. Well, you find the time. No, you make the time. Otherwise the time Or, you know, uh, you know, it’s time. It’s it’s a It’s the same abstract concept. It, um So the surrender of power, they and I would even hesitate to say the delegation of power. But it’s because then it’s

[00:42:36.73] spk_0:
just acknowledging that actually, these other bodies,

[00:42:40.35] spk_1:
these other, like I’m making a sign of across I give you power,

[00:42:44.40] spk_0:
right? No, it’s it’s just technology that everyone already had power. It was just power. You denied before. And now you’re saying, Oh, I’m gonna like actually listen to that You’re not getting ready of any of yours. You’re just technology that everyone else also has power on dhe. What does it look like? All work together and put all of that power towards the same direction.

[00:43:06.77] spk_1:
And then, you know, sometimes you hear well, that’ll be anarchy because they’ll be Everybody will have all

[00:43:13.96] spk_0:
the same power jurisdiction. So

[00:43:38.00] spk_1:
you know, your ruled by Antifa? Uh, that was purely sarcastic. Uh, no. I mean the the authority is still gonna be recognized. It’s not like it’s not like by by giving voice to other folks, you’re no longer the CEO of intent or, you know, you’re no longer people don’t no longer recognize you as the chair of the board. It’s not. It’s not that way. It’s not anarchy. It’s tze just inclusivity,

[00:44:40.39] spk_0:
right? I mean, if you’ve always relied on defining your job, is the CEO as being the only one allowed to make decisions? A. You probably put a ton of pressure on yourself. Be You were likely never the best person to make those decisions. So were they ever that great? Anyway, you know, it’s like remember, you’re just the facility. You’re the facilitator. Is the CEO of your organization being successful? That doesn’t mean you make all the decisions. It means you’re the facilitator. You make sure the right staff were making decisions or the right community members got to be part of things like let go of again. It’s not the power or the control. Just let go of these really outdated definitions of who we need to be in these roles so that we can get out of the way of all of this inequity, right? Like, create or make that space so that people are in this work together because then it’s gonna be better work.

[00:44:56.19] spk_1:
Yeah. Get out of the way of the inequity. No! Get out of the way of the equity. Out of the way you want. You want to stand out of the way so that equity can come through? Yes. Don’t want to get out of the way of the inequity.

[00:45:04.83] spk_0:
Car

[00:45:05.87] spk_1:
inequity would prevail. You want to get out of the way of the equity? Alright, stand clear and the equity will emerge. Okay. Um So what else? Let’s let’s start to wrap up. What else you wanna tell us about the report? That the guide, the guide? I’m sorry. The guy that we didn’t talk about, I

[00:46:16.78] spk_0:
think the thing that I would love to say is, you know, it’s all, um it’s all it’s all practice, right? Like you’re not going toe. Read anything in the guide and have it be like word for word, something you copy paste. And now that’s your policy or anything else. And yeah, and also there’s nothing in there that you’ll that you’ll, you know, be directed or inspired to put forward in your organization. That’s gonna be like quote unquote right the first time. Because there is There is no right on Lee Path in this work, and it’s really committing Thio, the practice of of focusing on equity and trying Thio identify and make clear where they’re inequitable outcomes so that you can again practice how to get to a better place on dhe. In that vein, you know, the working group isn’t done. The working group is still the working group. They are excited to continue working together to find places to add or adjust things in the guide. And we really, really want to hear from organizations who read the guide and, you know, try and do something in their organization with it. They, you know, have ah, internal committee that looks at these ideas and tries to make recommendations or whatever. Like if you try and use this guide. Let us know. Let us know how it goes. If if you’ve got things that you wanna share, we gladly publish them on the in 10. Um, you know, publish an article from you on the intense site. Um, you know, whether it was, like, a learning process or something, that well, whatever it is, we really just want to hear from folks that are using it so that we can find, you know, is there more that we could put in here to help you translate this into your work? Is there Are there places that you’re finding? Ah, lot of challenge that we could address with more guidelines. You know, um, And if you’re really into this and you want to join the working group, you can also let us know, and we’ll just add you to the working group. And you could be part of this work as well. So ultimately, just go use it. Read it, share it with your funders, share it with the vendors you’re considering buying technology from, you know, and be in conversation with us, so that we can kind of learn from how you do it.

[00:48:03.17] spk_1:
And the report explicitly asks for folks to join the working group. Your email AMIA 10 10 or GE.

[00:48:05.77] spk_0:
Yep. So yeah, email me in time.

[00:48:24.94] spk_1:
Did you want me? Oh, you want Meteo? You want me to blank out your email address? No, you don’t mind, folks have no. Yeah, right. Okay. Thank you. Brava! Brava! Uh, in your simple word and 10.

[00:48:26.77] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for elevating this and helping us share it with more folks.

[00:49:31.17] spk_1:
Absolutely a pleasure on Thank you for doing it. Thank you for helping me. Thank you for helping next week Volunteer engagement and artists. Sunday. Yes. There’s someone taking over looking to take over the Sunday after Thanksgiving for artists. Artists Sunday were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives. Raise more money. Changed more lives. Tony dot mus slash dot for a free demo and a free month. Ah, creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Special Episode: Starting The Racism Conversation

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Kay Suarez: Starting The Racism Conversation
The murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police on Memorial Day, May 25th, has incited 14 days of protests and calls for reform of structural racism. Racism and white privilege, after 401 years of it in the United States, exist not only in law enforcement, but all legal structures, education, healthcare, the economy—and nonprofits. What can we, the nonprofit community, do to be the change we want to see. How do we start the racism conversation in our offices? My guest is Kay Suarez, executive director of Equity in the Center.

 

 

 

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Nonprofit Radio for May 1, 2020: Real Estate & Racial-Equity DEI

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My Guests:

Jane Brody: Real Estate

How have markets been impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vicus Partners.

 

 

 

Tristan Penn: Racial-Equity DEI
Tristan Penn shares how Coronavirus has disproportionately hurt Black and Indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your nonprofit. Tristan is NTEN‘s community engagement and equity manager. (This is part of our 20NTC coverage.)

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:00:12.24] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:23.24] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is our first ever show in 487 that is not produced in studio. I put it together using a dizzy audacity and zoom. Let’s see how I did. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I throw is Anthill asthma. If I saw that you missed today’s show Real estate, how have markets being impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vikas Partners and Rachel Equity D I. Justin Pen shares how Corona virus has disproportionately hurt black and indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your non profit trust. In his end, tens community engagement and equity manager, this is part of our 20 and TC coverage. Tony Steak, too. Take a breath, were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is real estate. It’s a real pleasure to welcome to the show. Jane Brody She is executive director at Vikas Partners in New York City. Before Vikas, she helped launch a mentoring program serving over 10,000 Children and a foster care program to help over 8000 teenagers in the system make the transition to independence. She’s been a consultant to Ben and Jerry’s UNICEF, the American Red Cross, Coca Cola and the Special Olympics. She’s done stand up comedy company is at Vikas partners dot com. Jane Brody Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:29.84] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Great to be here.

[00:02:31.52] spk_1:
Real pleasure to have you tell me about your stand up comedy. I’ve done some of that. What’s what were your gigs? Where did you do?

[00:02:38.54] spk_2:
Well, I took a little class, and I always like to do stuff that kind of scares me a little bit and challenges may. So then, after I did the class and we did kind of Gotham startup, I did a couple open mic nights and I was invited back, and I liked it a lot. But apparently the owner of the club who booked me said, You have to bring 10 friends next time and next time. So I didn’t wanna have to, like, burden people with asking them to continue to watch me and follow May. And I realized very quickly that my humor was very regional, like I understood, you know, New York comedy specific. But it’s much started to be able to be funny and all the markets and how good the major comics are about sort of national humor, right? I enjoy it. I recently just improv class because I like doing those kinds of things. I think it makes you fresh and it challenges you.

[00:04:14.57] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, I’ve done stand up comedy and improv. I took a bunch of improv classes that the Upright Citizens Brigade and I took some stand up comedy classes with this Manhattan comedy school. Um, I’ve played Gotham, but only, you know, like you. It sounds like I do the new talent shows where Oh, you got a visitor there. Okay. Um, do talent shows? Yeah. We bring hers. Brings you gotta bring 10 people or 12 people or 15 people or something in orderto in orderto Get your stage time. Yeah, but I agree improv especially. You know, it’s very good for speaking confidence. I loved it. I think it helps me a lot. I like those. Did you did you try regional comedy outside New York? Is that how you?

[00:04:19.04] spk_2:
No. But we discovered that afford median income. Who’s been doing it for 15 years? And he’s told us to the story how he lived in his pinto, basically and traveled from city to city, Pittsburgh, all the small markets and when market his his bits than his time and then he’d go to the next city in the next city. I was like, I’m not gonna do that.

[00:05:19.94] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s hard to. It’s hard to make money at stand up comedy very few people to, and it’s true. You know, I’ve never even thought of it, cause I the only place I’ve ever done stand up is in New York City. I’ve never wanted to be regional or national, but absolutely true. I don’t I’m not sure people would get me outside outside the clothes. Maybe Westchester that would be about as far. Um, right. So So let’s talk about real estate. And, you know, our listeners are small and mid sized nonprofits. Um, now you you know, the New York City New your New York City market Are you able to generalize like to the t broader than that when we talk about

[00:05:22.42] spk_2:
course. Definitely. I think the same. Planning things and considerations Air true for nonprofits nationally. And I on the international board with other tenant rep brokers internationally. So I always used to having conversations.

[00:05:38.41] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, um and so what are we seeing? Real estate wise around the pandemic. What’s the impact

[00:05:47.80] spk_2:
of certainly some things that you would think there are a lot more sub lets that are hitting the market transactions air down. In New York City of, for instance, it’s been down 40% in the first quarter. I think that it’s gonna be a very rich landlord reaching for us market more than you know, a tighter market where Layla is gonna be a little more difficult. So they’ll be more flexibility

[00:06:16.90] spk_1:
when we come out of this. And people are looking again for real estate. That’s encouraging. On the 10 inside that there’s gonna be that kind of flexibility. Like you said, you know, landlords reaching out, you think.

[00:06:23.87] spk_2:
And also I would say the other great. A huge amount of space that will be available will be retail. It’s gonna be a lot longer for retail to come back because of restaurants and all the other stores. That just a change of pattern of how people can access those spaces is gonna be very different.

[00:06:44.24] spk_1:
Um, when we you know, if any organization is thinking about changing real estate or just use, I guess maybe even just using their existing real estate when when we end up going back to offices. What other considerations there? How do you think things have changed in terms of office space usage?

[00:07:03.50] spk_2:
I think some of the considerations of the large brand tech companies, household names, air changing the amount of physical space per employee so typically was 175 square feet per employee. Now it’s going up to 300 square feet. Does that mean that they’ll be taking more space? I don’t think necessarily. I think people will be varying worked times and changing how many people can use space to a different time. They’ll also be technological impacts. For instance, people will be relying more on their handheld devices than that, necessarily having centralized computer systems, touch lists, entry to spaces, booking of conference rooms, anything where there’s high touch experiences. I think also just the way that people interact. There won’t be as many large group meetings, and the way that we work together will be very different. For a while, you

[00:08:06.40] spk_1:
mentioned booking conference rooms. What you mean? Like, if there’s a, uh, there’s booking a reservation system outside the room and lots of people touch it, is that

[00:08:16.84] spk_2:
it actually, or, you know, touchless check in. Sometimes people hand you and I have had to check in when you go into a space for security. So I think some of those things will be rethought and they’ll be more innovations along the way that we work together in a virtual way. And I think people’s ability to work at home and the office will be expanded. We’ve all adjusted, and we might have several waves of what’s gonna come ahead. We don’t really know.

[00:08:44.04] spk_1:
You know

[00:08:44.26] spk_2:
what I think we’re all anxious to get back to work and be together.

[00:08:47.85] spk_1:
You said, um, typical was 175 square feet per per employee. I don’t that’s that. That sounds like a lot, but is that the average is the average cubicle 175 square feet of space?

[00:09:26.94] spk_2:
Uh, roughly. I mean, there’s lots of different ways they call it bench seating. If you’ve seen lots of staff in small desks in front of them, that could be a slow is 100 per person or 75 square feet per person. I think it’s gonna be more generous than it was before, and we’d have large bullpen seating with lots of people in rows. I think that’s gonna look different. And also, I think they’ll be more spacing between desks and the physical nous of space changed.

[00:09:33.85] spk_1:
Yeah, I e. You know, you said, you think it’ll it could go as high as like 300 square feet per person, which is almost almost double the 1 75

[00:09:43.10] spk_3:
I’m

[00:09:50.74] spk_2:
not sure are non profit clients conduce that as as generously, Yeah, but that’s what I’m getting at right. I think it depends on what are non province use the space for. So that’s part of determining what the next steps for the non profits are. You do you have to have a large H Q like mothership. Do you need small offices? And in the various communities you’re serving, what will be the physical footprint of the space that you need to have some fulfill? Your mission, I think, is kind of part of the new sort of long term strategic planning into Cove it and in general, for non profits.

[00:12:18.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice oven experienced partner You, JJ, Doom and Affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com. Now back to real estate with Jane Brody, and I see I fix that mistake with Jane Brody’s name. This audacity is so you can get so compulsive with it. It’s so alluring to take out every, um and on then. But if I if I take all those out, you’re gonna wonder. Who the hell am I listening to? Where’s tony? Sums and ours and his mistakes. So I’m not taking out everything. That is a slight imperfection. Some some things. You know what? Some things have got to stay the same. Every damn thing cannot change that. We’re accustomed to its It’s doing settling. I mean, there’s enough changes already to non profit radio. I’m keeping in the arms in the eyes and the okays. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I’m keeping those in, um, there. I’m keeping that in. Some things have just gotta remain the same. I am not perfect in the way I talk. And by now, after 487 shows, you don’t expect me to be so the hell with audacity, ease, intricacies and perfect ability. I’m not taking advantage of it all anyway. It’s time for a break. No. Anyway, here’s more back to real estate with Jane Brody. When should we start talking to our existing landlord about whether we’re going to stay or about renewing? How early should that conversation start?

[00:12:34.84] spk_2:
It’s really two pronged approach. A lot of people think Oh, I haven’t talked to my landlord and they go towards very close to the end of the least. That’s not really the best model because it leaves you kind of trapped, dealing directly with your Lambert. What the best approach is a year, two years, a year and 1/2 before your lease is expiring, kind of figuring out what you really need the space or and what the purpose and function of your space. You have the right spaces. It’s the right size, or you’re in the right market in the right community and then engaging a broker which has no cost to you. The commission’s air baked into the deal, and what you do is you have your broker find you at least two or three options that you like. So you go on on tours, understand the market, see what your space would cost across the street, in the same area you like to be in, you get a negotiated, non binding letter of intent that your broker can work with you on. And then once you have a deal in place, then you can go to your existing landlord. We call it kind of a stocking horse in the trade, which is here’s something that I could get if I have to move, can you beat it? can you match it? What can you do with this existing opportunity against what? Staying in place? Most people want to renew and stay in place. And your broker can also negotiate that with your landlord. So you wanna have sort of two tracks. The best is at least a year and 1/2 a year into place because it takes probably a month to find the right space. You negotiate the letters of intent, take you at least a month to do the lease, and then if you have a build out, that’s four or five months. So that’s a good amount of time. Plus, everybody has Stakeholders may have you the board involvement the various teams in your organization. Does this fit the needs of the organization, and then you have to kind of engage everyone in the process.

[00:14:56.64] spk_1:
So where you call a stalking horse, I will just call leverage, right? You want to have. You won’t have another deal in hand that you can present to your current landlord and say, Look, you know, I could move, but everybody knows you don’t really want to move right. I mean, it’s a big hassle moving, sure, but you want to have some leverage over the over the person? Absolutely. So I can see why you got to start, like a year and 1/2 in advance,

[00:15:19.11] spk_2:
or I just want to make one other point. Tony. Some people are afraid to challenge their landlord because my landlord’s so great. He’s been a donor to my organization, and I think, uh, I think sometimes nonprofits are intimidated by that, But I people very much treated as separation of church in ST and ST you make a donation to something you believe in and on the other part of the isle you can certainly negotiate a least one has nothing to do with the other.

[00:15:31.87] spk_1:
And you made the point that a broker is free to the tenant, right?

[00:16:13.13] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, that Brooklyn tony that that works from a from a Do you else to end point is commission is baked into the transaction, and it’s a very old schtum. So in every transaction, there’s a landlord broker, an attendant rap broker. If you don’t have a tenant rep broker, and basically you’re just handing the condition completely over to the landlord broker, and I like to kind of talk about in terms of the wars. Wouldn’t wanna have one lawyer kind of representing both sides of the equation. You can. So you look for somebody who understands your work in your mission and can act on your behalf and, well, looking at the same data. So that’s another thing people think. Well, let me hire Let me get three or four people running around for me, but it doesn’t really work that well because we all look a co star, which is a proprietary database that we all subscribed. Teoh.

[00:16:31.94] spk_1:
Okay, so everybody’s got access to the same listings. What? You said that in any community, that’s nation

[00:16:37.28] spk_2:
yet it’s national, its international. Okay,

[00:16:39.91] spk_1:
okay. All right, So now all right. So we know we should start, like, maybe two years, a year and 1/2 in advance of the expiration of our least. So now what do we need to be thinking about in terms of our new space Or, you know, our existing space?

[00:16:55.26] spk_2:
Well, one thing that I think is really important is a good match with right land board. So I have just a couple of examples that really kind of illustrate this one is this organization I worked with? They they, uh, took in donations for babies. 03 year olds. They would get strollers and books and clothing, toys, and people would come with you could imagine garbage bags full of treasures. And then they would come to the building full of all their stuff in their hands, cribs everything and come into the lobby and go up in the elevators and make the donation on. And then the clients would come with not themselves or just their baby. They would bring five or six people because, you know, day care is a huge challenge for low income families. So a particular Landler didn’t like all that additional foot traffic,

[00:17:47.69] spk_1:
right? Probably bags of stuff being hold onto the elevator to Right?

[00:19:07.24] spk_2:
Right. So you’re crowding my other tenants. You’re crowding my elevator, you’re holding things up. So I was able to find them a landlord that adores what they do. They actually make donations, they help them with all kinds of support. And I recently ran into the landlord at an event, and they’re like Jane finding more tenants like this. We love what they dio and I have another case where I worked with this organization called Chess in the Schools. Wonderful organization had been in the building 17 years, and they had this, like, huge 12,000 foot space that was shaped like a pizza pot. I mean, how somebody designed this thing with slices as the various zones, but it was really expensive rent for them. They had downsized, but they had this, like, really strange requirement that once a week, 80 young people high school kids came to play chest, so they needed a certain kind of space. The landlord worked so hard to keep them in the building. He he helped me find the space within the building that was 4500 feet, renovated the space for them. And then there was no lag way leaving their old space and moving out of two years earlier their existing lease and gave them a brand new lease going 10 years, four. Very unusual. So if you get lucky with those kind of connections, so I always try to find landlords that are the right match for clients, I think it makes a big difference,

[00:19:28.74] spk_1:
and you have to be upfront about what your work is so if there are gonna be families coming through, You know, with kids, you know, the class A space landlord, you know, may not want that because they don’t want Children in the lobbies or if it’s gonna be folks with disabilities. And you know, some landlords may not be at all sensitive to that, and others may be completely embracing of that. So yes, true, we’ll be upfront about what kind of traffic you’re gonna create if it’s not strictly an office environment.

[00:20:13.39] spk_2:
And that’s really educating your broker to really understand your organization. And I kind of think of it as kind of putting that mission on my back and trying to, like, think about what that executive director or board member needs. I’m working with an adoption agency right now and one of the things that was really important to them. And I really thought a lot about this when I when I speak about this particular client, is they have birth mothers who are, you know, young women. Sometimes there are, you know, compromise situations. They’re kind of a lot of anxiety around giving your baby up for adoption and going to like a mainstream building where you’ve got turnstiles. Intense security screenings would be could be intimidating. So finding them a sort of quieter block building where they could walk in themselves, created in the best way. And also there’s confidentiality issues. There’s programming. So how can it be very front facing an appropriate for that particular client and meets the needs of the organization?

[00:21:14.64] spk_1:
Okay, yeah, I see. Just maybe just even giving their name at a security desk is, I don’t know, intimidating or off putting to a clientele like that

[00:22:20.64] spk_2:
or shelling a driver’s license or so really kind of matching what you’re trying to accomplish in this space. And I also think understanding what you’re using the space for Israeli import, you know? Are you doing classrooms or you’re doing training? Are you doing touchdowns? Space for your feet fieldworkers? I had one particular client who ah, was an arts organization. After School Arts Organization. It was created in the seventies when all the arts organizations were taken. All the art teachers were taken out of the school systems, so these two former teachers started organization and they hire freelance artists to come into schools, you know, lovely idea. Filling a need and then the schools would contract for these part time workers. This and they kind of grew the organization unwto through little tiny apartments that they were renting in the community in the city. So this executive director said, let me create one central place for the organization, a place where the artist can come, receive their materials, have training, have collaboration. And it’s really changed the environment of the organization and the way that the employees and the artist kind of bond on having a ton, equal footing and a connection in a place to be together.

[00:22:44.04] spk_1:
All right, Jane, um, so let’s talk about some common mistakes that you see that non profits, you know, can hopefully avoid,

[00:23:27.94] spk_2:
I would say typically timing, not having enough period of time to think about your space. So we talked about a year and 1/2 or two years. I’ve had people call May I’ve got a month left to my least. What should I dio? Okay, that’s certainly not doesn’t put you in the driver’s seat, right? Making sure that you have all the stakeholders involved in the process. The development people, your board, your your staff, understanding what you’re trying to accomplish in your space search being isolated and just working through the operations people. That’s really important. Another important part is that you could afford the space and that it fits with your budget. I mean, certainly Cove. It has been a real lesson and understanding the financial impact of things like rent to those air key mistakes.

[00:23:44.91] spk_1:
These mistakes, we’re gonna be reduced because we’re raising people’s consciousness about about them. All right, Um, all right, so I mean, I love it. You hit this a couple times, but you said that you can’t stress enough the importance of starting early. So you you have time. It’s not a crisis. You’re not trying to find space and negotiate a deal in three or four months, which may not even be doable,

[00:25:35.69] spk_2:
I think also, I want to mention just another example. I worked with a food pantry early on, and it was really interesting this particular organization, great organization, New York Common Pantry. And they had received a grant to help senior citizens receive food distribution through senior citizen centers. So it was a new program. They were gonna have vans leaving the central location going out to these new communities and providing food. So when we started looking for space and understanding what they could do, you started learning a lot about crazy things. Like if you get all this food and then your new distributed the weight of the food and the canned goods and all the foods that will be distributed could be really important on the weight of a building, so being in a second floor wouldn’t work. So we ended up being in a ground floor small warehouse, and then they had some other programs. Programmatic needs counseling. Nutrition program really split how they ended up solving the real estate. We had office in one location and food distribution in the vans and a different area. So sometimes the way that you solve the program programmatic needs can look different because of the the whole state weight breaks out. So it’s all pen of a learning experience some time

[00:25:42.44] spk_1:
and creative creative experience. All right. Jane Brody, she’s executive director and Vikas Partners. They’re at Vikas partners dot com. Jane. Thanks so much for being guest. Thanks for sharing.

[00:25:51.79] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Be safe.

[00:27:57.30] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software their accounting product. Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. You have a free 60 day trial on offer. It’s on the listening landing page. That’s the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take two. Take a breath, take a breath. Relax. You need to take care of yourself, not just once. Try to do each day, sit with yourself and clear your head. Focus on your breath. Meditate, nap. Whatever is good for you. Be good to yourself in a healthy, soothing, calming, loving way. There’s so much shit going down, and so much is being asked of you That is strange and difficult. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. You need it. Please take care of yourself, and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for racial equity. D I welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. You know the conference had to be canceled, but you also know we are persevering virtually. We’re sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin for a free 60 day trial. My guess now is just in pen. He is a community engagement and equity manager at n 10. The host of 20 NTC. Justin, welcome.

[00:27:58.74] spk_4:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:28:00.60] spk_1:
It’s great to have you. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we’re able to work this out. Virtually thanks so much. Yes. No, you’re You’re well and safe ing in Portland, Oregon.

[00:28:25.54] spk_4:
You know, I am. It’s some, you know, we’re all living a very new reality, So it’s definitely something that, uh, was kind of new to me. I worked 2 to 3 days a week, um, from home. But now I’m doing it all day. Every day

[00:28:33.04] spk_1:
of misery. Were maybe six years. Hopefully not seven, but maybe five for six days. Um, so you had really interesting topic? Ah, critical. Critical announces you what worked for us. A critical reflection of intends racial equity rooted. D I work? Yeah, I think this is obviously your responsibility at and then as

[00:28:50.28] spk_4:
that is, Okay,

[00:29:28.14] spk_1:
um and I’m still, you know, this D I is I’m 58 years old, so I didn’t grow up with this. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it, talking about it, struggling with it for and, you know, maybe not long enough, but three for 3 to 5 years, I’d say some ran. Um, so I have a pretty basic question, but I want to get it off my chest. What off, Mike? I wanted I want to get it out. Why? Why do you have to say racial equity rooted D I work, right? I would think that that’s just subsumed in D I

[00:31:10.70] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, I think there’s a lot of things, you know, I wanna give space because we only have 25 minutes. I could definitely talk for 25 minutes just specifically about this. However, I do think because we center all of our, um, racial our excuse me, our d I work with rooted in racial equity. It’s important to us because I think at the end of the day, there are a lot of systemic and oppressive things that have happened not only in this country, but also, um, within the nonprofit sector that really do effect people of color first. So, for example, there’s this idea of intersectionality, which does happen and is a thing. But also, like, you know, you can be a, um, a white woman who is just and still get a lot more privilege than a black woman who was disabled. So, um, so that’s just a just a bit of it all, too. And that’s why we center it with racial equity to explicit. Absolutely, Absolutely. And that’s not to say that it’s a binary where we are saying that racial equity above everything else and we’re not we’re gonna brush everything else off the table. There are other identities that, um, people identify with that air just is important. And, um, they they have their own, you know, marginalization within their own communities to, and those need to be honored as well to and considered. And, um, really makes in and made sure that they’re being prioritized during certain circumstances.

[00:31:47.94] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, well, you know, we we may end up going more than 25 minutes, because I Something’s according to meet it. What about this? This pandemic. How do you feel? Like this is highlighting. We’re gonna get there are. Actually two things I wanna ask you is exacerbating. Yeah, I want to start with almost over the highlight. How do you feel? Like this pandemic and the country and I’m focused on Let’s focus on the U. S. Yeah, uh, that has the reaction to it. They’re working from home. The we could talk about the s. My gosh, I could see how we usually go. 2125 minutes.

[00:31:52.27] spk_4:
Yeah,

[00:32:03.44] spk_1:
about the loan programs? Absolutely. Wherever you wanna go, How do you feel? Like the pandemic and the response to it have highlighted. Yeah, inequities.

[00:34:11.38] spk_4:
What a great question. Wow. So I can only speak from personal experience or just the identities that I bring to the table. So, um, I am I’m half black and I’m half Navajo. So my dad is black, and my mom is Navajo. And so, um, being that bi racial professional in the non non profit sector world, um, you know, as a black man and as a Navajo man as well, you know, you see these things and you have these very direct ties to the communities with which you navigate in and reside in the one thing that comes to mind is, um you know, all of my Navajo relatives. So I have a lot of member who relatives that are still on the rez on the New Mexico side. Um And so, um, one thing that’s really striking to me is that, you know, the last I mean, the numbers change every day, right? With these covert 19 cases. Um however, the last time I read it, um, it was, um per capita, the amount of cases after New York and after New Jersey, the next, um, the next amount of cases was the Navajo Nation under. Really? Yeah. And so that’s I mean, there’s their cases per capita, and I want to make sure that that portion Exactly. And so that’s really concerning because I have family on the rez. And also, um, it’s, um It kind of it speaks to the, um the years of historic, um, oppression And, um, you know, genocide that has happened with it within indigenous communities. Um, and how there has been, um, baked into, um, you know, communication and treaties and promises broken promises by the federal government. Why? This has kind of made, you know, this situation that we have now on the Navajo reservation. And I’m sure, um uh, among other tribes, something that is really, really pressing right now, there’s probably accounts everywhere. And so I just

[00:34:27.37] spk_1:
health care. Health care has been a serious negative problem. Serious problem on the indigenous peoples for generations, right? The health care on the reservations.

[00:36:01.23] spk_4:
And so it just ends up being something that, like, I hold near and dear to my heart because I think of all my family members that are on the rez and live on the Navajo Nation. Um and also just, you know, um, the the way in which, um, you know, the the federal government supports or doesn’t support the Navajo Nation, never being its own sovereign nation. And so I think there’s, um um this is really kind of, like, pushed everything to the forefront of what is wrong with the systems. And I think it also, you know, on the other side of things, you know, you see now as that this data is coming out, those who have passed away and died to come, Teoh, you know this illness, um, the majority of them are black people. And so that’s also concerning for me, Um, that, you know, I think that there is, um, something to be said for that. And I think, you know, that kind of also lends Teoh. There are people who aren’t able to, you know, work from home. They have to be out there to. And so I think it’s very interesting in a data point that, um as hopefully when all of this subsides will be able to look at and really sit through and figure out and find I mean, I would be willing to put money on, you know that. You know, people of color indigenous communities, black people and indigenous communities probably were disproportionately affected by this. This pandemic

[00:36:09.24] spk_1:
in terms of health care, unemployment, yes. Businesses closed, I

[00:36:35.13] spk_4:
write. And also systemic and systemic. You know, an institutionalized racism that has policies, practices that our priority not prioritizing them, or are looking over these communities to as well. If it goes past the health care and Maurin two systems as well, it’s not built for them. Um, because it wasn’t with them in mind. It was with white folks in line,

[00:38:25.22] spk_1:
right? Right. Okay. Yeah, we could We could certainly go hours on that. Yeah. Um, all right. I’m yeah, and I don’t And so I mentioned, you know, highlighting and exacerbating. I Yeah, I think when When the dust settles and we look at disparities in outcomes, we’re gonna find immigrants and indigenous folks disproportionately impacted in terms of, uh, well, yeah, the institutional racism that you’re you’re bringing out and just in terms of the more surface store things that that, you know, like health care and help get unemployment lost jobs. And I mean from I have a small business. And so I see the way those that loan program is, at least in these opening weeks of it or whether I should say we’re recording on according on Tuesday, April 21st and so far, the opening program the opening, uh, indications around the S B A. Programs are that, you know, big businesses air getting it, yes, and most likely predominantly wiped. Run. Yeah, and and small businesses that I think Congress intended it to help or are falling short. At least that’s yeah, that’s what’s happening in this first tranche of 250 billion. We’ll see what happens when there’s the absolutely next the next level, but I’m sure you’re right. You know, the because the system is rigged against and built in favor of Yeah,

[00:38:26.63] spk_4:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:38:28.16] spk_5:
yeah, yeah. All right.

[00:38:30.62] spk_3:
Um,

[00:38:32.02] spk_1:
so we’ve been 20 minutes already, and we haven’t even gotten to only about it away. About the time you gotta you gotta host that. I wanted to talk about the pandemic in these terms

[00:38:42.27] spk_4:
or yeah,

[00:39:16.89] spk_1:
I haven’t done anything, but also so thank you. Yeah, but don’t worry about the time that you got a lackluster host to deal with. It’s my my shortcoming. Um all right, let’s talk some. Let’s talk about in 10. Yeah. Um What? Ah, well, all right. Before we get into the details of in 10 how do you how? Open someone start this conversation in their own organization? Yeah, I feel like it’s systemically institutionally. Wait, Run. Well, that would be out. They wouldn’t feel it. That would be obvious. But wait, wait, wait. Policies. Yeah. Um, how did they kick off this conversation?

[00:39:23.82] spk_4:
You know, tony, that’s a really great question, too. And there’s a variety of ways to bring it up. Teoh, I just got done reading a really good book. Actually, that Amy shared with me. Um, about how Teoh Stopgap

[00:39:38.86] spk_1:
award and simple words are social media and technology contributor here on non profit radio. Okay, just for the for the 45 people out of the 13,000 who may not know who any simple

[00:42:00.09] spk_4:
Yes, She gave me a book about institutionalized racism and institutionalized bias on how that manifests itself in the workplace and more importantly, what you can do about it. So it’s one thing toe like, recognize it and be like, This is wrong. And this is happening. Another thing to start, um, to start bringing it up within your organization is at the root of your question is you know, what can you do? And there’s a variety of things that you do. I think the first thing that comes to mind, um, that I read in this book was the book. It’s called Recognizing Institutional bias. Um, I may have to, like, follow back up with you. I know it’s something like that, but I breathe through it, um, so I’ll I’ll give you the title of it later. Um, but she um But this book talks about, you know, it’s one thing. Excuse me to go about it as an individual, but it is. I mean, it’s kind of like one of those things where safety in numbers and so being able tohave an ally or someone within the organization that you can also push this work or were, too. So it means asking some hard questions, and it means asking some hard questions of yourself as well to. And I think that’s the key point. Um, as well is realizing that, you know, we all have implicit, um, biases that we have in our head. Um, you know, when we think of cats, we think of cats, as you know, very. You know, Castile. They kind of take care of themselves. Some cats aren’t like that, though, you know, And so I think going into it, we have to really check those ideas about certain people, people from communities that have been informed, those implicit biases. We have to make sure that we’re good with ourselves or not even that we’re good with them and that we’ve reconciled them but that were aware of. So I think that was a really big take away point for me. Um, you know I’m 1/2 black man. I’m a Navajo man. Um, I have implicit bias, you know, everyone does. And so I think being able to understand that before pushing this work is really key to this. You have to really kind of strip yourself bare and understand that, um in order to push this work forward, you’re going to have to do some self work as well.

[00:42:17.87] spk_1:
Implicit biases. Is that not the same as stereotypes?

[00:42:20.30] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Some people call stereotypes. Yeah,

[00:42:24.77] spk_1:
you gotta You gotta be conscious of your own stereotypes.

[00:42:58.50] spk_4:
Exactly. We don’t politicize. Yeah. And sometimes those stereotypes are very obvious to you. You you think about them. But also, there are some that are very deep within your subconscious that come out without knowing, too. And so then it’s one of those things where you start. You have to be reflective and think, Gosh, where is this coming from? Where is the stock coming from? And where is this belief coming from? And really dig down deep into it. Um, I think another thing to that, um, when you push this type of work forward or are start to prioritize this work you have to think about you and I were talking about this earlier is, you know, the climate of the organization. Um And where in what? In the environment of the organization, some organizations have their heels in the ground, and I have experienced organizations like that where their heels air in the ground and they’re like, we have a D I committee that meets once a month and that’s it. Check box checked. We’re done with it. We don’t have to do anymore work. We don’t have Teoh, you know, examine the policies and practices in the environment that we put forward with an organization. So that’s a non starter for a lot of people. And in those

[00:43:37.63] spk_1:
organisms, on top of that r R D I committee, it has black black people in it. Yeah, so we’ve We were an equitable organization. Exactly to blacks on our equity committee.

[00:46:01.08] spk_4:
Exactly. And so I think those are things that I have experienced those there is half organizations where, you know, that’s the thing we call tokenism within. Let I wouldn’t even say within the d I world. That’s just tokenism, period with in whatever world you want to live in. And so that’s That’s a tokenism thing. And sadly, I’ve fallen victim to that in my earlier years of, you know, when I was a young professional of, you know, really being eager and wanting to please white leadership, Um, and realizing that I wasn’t pushing forward d I work. I was not contributing to it, but I was a victim of it. Um, and it was a system much larger than the the actual work that I was putting forward, and it was really sad, and I had to remove myself from those situations and those token izing situations. There was once a month d I meetings where I was that the token eyes per person of color that was having to bear my soul about some very, very deep and emotional topics. And so I think a lot of times, you know, you have to as a person who’s pushing this forward specifically, and I’m you know, I say this directly to people of color and organizations and non profit organizations who are the one to, you know, third person of color in the organization. I mean that that’s a big, big hill to climb to, and it’s not insurmountable. But what I will say is, you know, you have to be able to check in with yourself as a person of color and as a, um, as a professional of color, Um, be a black being Beit, indigenous, being Asian, um, agent. And so I just think that you have to check in with that because and be very hyper vigilant and aware that, um, some folks may want to token eyes you in a way and being ableto have, um, practices and things in your back pocket, too. Disrupt knows those policies and procedures and practices and then either move forward or remove yourself from the situation.

[00:46:09.88] spk_1:
Checking in with yourself means, like the official question. Is this even worth doing at this organization?

[00:46:11.41] spk_4:
Right. And maybe

[00:46:12.44] spk_1:
Do I have any ally or there are other potential allies? Okay, go to potential allies, and they turned out not to be allies. Is it even worth doing in this organization like you say, you remove yourself, Go elsewhere?

[00:47:29.58] spk_4:
Yeah, and it because. And that’s really sad, too, because I think a lot of us in the nonprofit world are, um, you know, we are so passionate about the work that we dio We wanna, you know, we kind of pride ourselves. And I did this for a very long time when I worked in use development. You pride yourself on the number of hours that you work. You pride yourself on working overtime. You pride yourself on for the bare minimum, you do that. And then you have larger organizations that are typically white Run. That’s hold you hostage to that belief. And that’s really and that was I mean, I heard that maybe two or three years ago, someone said it much more beautifully than I just did. But on I wish I get credit them, but I forget who it was, but it really is those, I mean, and that’s a very big systemic, um, problem within the nonprofit world is that, you know, a lot of times white leadership will hold those those middle level, middle level, direct service middle management folks. Um, be it you know, people of color or not to their own jobs. To that to that own passion. I

[00:48:03.03] spk_1:
thought you loved our work. Exactly. We asked you when you came here three years ago. What moved without the work and, you know, using that work against them in some fashion time for our last break turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard even through the Corona virus cacophony. They know exactly what to do to make it happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for racial equity, D I? In fact, this runs long because it’s a good conversation with Tristan that I did not want to stop. The total show is roughly 75 minutes,

[00:48:15.97] spk_4:
and it’s like the byline of you know, non profit works. Sometimes, sadly, is like we’re not in this for the paycheck, you know,

[00:48:23.25] spk_1:
Passion, passion, shaming.

[00:50:25.86] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so I mean, and so when you put you take that in and of itself, within the nonprofit world, and then you layer on a racial inequity that’s like also, you know, people are stuck folks of color. Black folks are stuck with it between a rock and a hard place within their job. They want to make money toe like live to pay their bills. They want to have a job to do those things. Yet they’re stuck in an organization that is holding them hostage to the work that they’re doing, and so that that’s something that I think is I went off on a tangent. But I also think that you have to be very aware is this Is this organization ready for this? Is this organization really about this work? Because it’s gonna strip a lot of things bare for the organization that they may not like, you know, And that made that push against that culture dominate that white culture, dominant belief and systems that have built the organization toe what it is today. So, for example, it means, you know, how are we working? Are we working every single meeting toe have some sort of end results? Um, you know where we come to a conclusion at the end of every meeting? That’s white, dominant culture in and of itself. Sometimes we have meetings that don’t have a big or clear and result, and we need to be okay with that. Um and so I think about that. And I think about my past, you know, roles that I have held in use development and how many times I’ve been in a meeting where it’s like we have to get X and Y and Z done by the time. But in two hours we have to pound out a budget in two hours on DSO. I think being able to work, and I’m not saying that like and 10 is one of those, you know, shining places on the hill. But I love it here because Amy gives us the space and latitude to sometimes not have toe have meetings that maybe we didn’t come to a clear conclusion or that there’s not an expectation that we have a solid, you know, um, a solid solution that we come out of

[00:50:31.72] spk_1:
their outcome by end of me and meetings or just a microcosm of the total work, that because the work is constantly a journey absolutist repeatedly, you know, it’s not done at the end of a year or 18 months. And, you know, like you were saying different example though, you know, check, we’ve done our We’ve done our diversity work

[00:50:50.11] spk_4:
right right

[00:51:06.97] spk_1:
now. Now, we just banned the committee or the committee Lance to be six months every six months or something like that. Yes, the meeting is just a microcosm of the of the overall structure and progress and journey you say in the description of the program, then 10 journey. It’s never It’s not really never completed.

[00:51:15.12] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s never done. And it definitely doesn’t live solely with me. And I think this is the one thing that I particularly like, Um, in this this role that I’m in within 10 and working so closely with Amy with D I work is the idea that she and I are a team, um, working towards this, I think a lot of times and organizations, they token eyes, a person of color, and they’re like, Oh, you’re the equity person. You’re the equity director. You’re the X, y and Z, which is fine. It’s great. I’m all for that. But a lot of times there are situations where or organizations that put it all on that person. And they’re like

[00:51:52.79] spk_1:
the person has no with no authority, exact lots of accountability, but no authority,

[00:53:04.39] spk_4:
right? And so what I really like and appreciate is that Amy pushes me, and I pushed back on things that we’re working towards and, um You know, I say I pushed back, but also she and Ira will learn personality anyway, So a lot of times, um, she’ll peek around the corner from our office when we when we worked in offices. Um, you know, and be like I was thinking something like, Oh, my gosh, I was just thinking that. So I think it also helps be specifically with her. And I really are, um our relationship is that she and I are just very similar. Um, and, um, I think that does help. But I also appreciate her as a leader being able Teoh ask questions and prioritized racial equity not only when she’s thinking about D I stuff, but when she’s thinking about the budget. When she’s thinking about NTC when she’s thinking about, um, you know, all of our I t endeavours, all of our community pieces. Um, I appreciate that because that says to me as a person of color and more importantly, a someone who’s, um, you know, a ah person who’s working for is that Oh, this person’s in it for riel. Yeah, Amy talks. The talk walks the walk, and again, it’s not toe like, you know, game points with a Me, too. Because for that you

[00:53:18.07] spk_2:
were you making

[00:53:18.66] spk_1:
the point of the importance of leadership that has to be leadership support by in, you know, whatever it’s called or else you are, Well, not the person committee or the entire endeavor is just gonna be, you know, without without teeth,

[00:54:48.24] spk_4:
right? Yeah. And so that’s what I appreciate her as a leader, even though I’m the person that has the role that pushes it forward and stewards that she’s right there with me helping me and asking those questions on an executive level and on a board level two and prioritizing those questions. And so that’s something that I really appreciate as an employee, but also separately from that, like as a person of color, as an indigenous man, as a black man. I appreciate those things, Um, and so it’s it’s kind of 11 of those situations where, you know, talk is cheap, you know? And, um, you know, she walks the walk, and I really appreciate that. I’ve, you know, worked with a lot of white leadership in past organizations that I worked in, where they talked to talk. They love a good. You know, feel good session about D I stroking their own egos and all the things. But when it comes, it comes down to it when there are policies that they’re pushing forward and meetings that are directly, you know, working against racial equity, that’s not it, you know? And so those are examples that I think of where I’m like. Gosh, I wish I would have spoken up. Um, but but, you know, within 10 I don’t feel that. And that’s something that I I’m gonna hold on to it and hold onto it tight, because I know that this is a good thing. And I’m really, um, you know, glad and blessed to work on a place that prioritizes those things.

[00:55:13.17] spk_1:
Can you tell a story of an example of something that on its surface is not inequitable by? Maybe you pointed it out, Or if not, use something. It became obvious that it is inequitable. Yeah, you brought it to the organization and a chain jumping

[00:57:48.23] spk_4:
right. So I’ll give an example, and it doesn’t really point out a specific person, but it points out, Is Berries easy thing that no one had really found it within the organization within our organization. I know a lot of people think, Oh, wow. It’s like this multi tiered, you know, organization with lots of people. There’s only 15 of us, so, I mean, the way we work is very collaborative anyway. And so, um, once we have a job, sport where folks immunity are able to post open positions on the community s so a lot of times it’s organizations that will want to post a open position that they have on for the longest time, we didn’t, um we as an organization didn’t have, um, a requirement for salary. So when people when there was a salary field for organizations to put in, um, you know what? How much this person was going toe radio? Absolutely. They leave a blank, right? D o e dependent upon experience. Um, and if you look at that, too, seems pretty like, oh, standard. We see it all the time with, like, you know, you know, we go on linked and we go on any sort of jobs board site. Yeah, They probably don’t, you know, put the salary, and a lot of times it’s dio we and, um I I myself was like I don’t see like why, you know, there’s like an issue with that, too. Until it was pointed out that, like, you know, this was This is a practice that is steeped in, um, whiteness and its steeped in patriarchal, the patriarchy. And so why do Why do organisations not do that? I don’t know. I can’t say that for each and every other word Is that what I can say is that when organizations don’t put a salary for a job or put d o e um, that disproportionately effects women and people of color. Um, because it contributes Teoh. And there have been studies that show that when it’s when there’s no salary, it discourages people of color. Don’t feel like they are, um, you know, I don’t want to speak for for all people of color, but there have been studies that have shown that, you know, it contributes to that pay gap. That gender pay gap

[00:57:59.03] spk_1:
okay, enables that’s what I thought. It enables disparities in pay

[00:58:00.60] spk_4:
exactly and so

[00:58:02.32] spk_1:
committed because you don’t have to commit in writing exact ranges 1 25 to

[00:58:57.62] spk_4:
one solidity on their maybe organizations out there that are like, Oh, this is a black woman that’s applying for this job. I’m going toe put my I’m gonna offer this job to this person on the lower end of that range, and that’s not fair, Um or, you know, because I didn’t put post my salary. I’m gonna lowball this this this job offer and that’s not fair as well to we want organizations that are going to put or post positions or job roles on our website to be up front with everything, too. We want to make sure that our community members have all the information that they have to make an informed decision about their future job. Future A future benefits so they can make the most educated decision on whether they want to join this organization or not. Do you

[00:59:02.44] spk_1:
know what’s what’s required for

[00:59:12.82] spk_4:
that salary? Yes, so right now it is required. That’s the only thing it so you can’t post a job of job opening without having a salary.

[00:59:15.53] spk_1:
OK, so array is arranged, Arranges acceptable,

[00:59:18.46] spk_4:
I believe, arranges acceptable. I

[00:59:42.21] spk_1:
think that’s okay that someone is coming being offered at the lower end of that range, and they feel their experience marriage something higher? Um, then they can brother on conclusion that this may very well be racial or gender based or some other some other classifications based beyond their experience. You could draw that. You can draw that conclusion for yourself. If you’re being offered the low end of that salary. Radio

[00:59:50.07] spk_4:
have some very badly for that with the rains that that was going, going it, Teoh.

[00:59:53.03] spk_1:
Otherwise, your you’ve got no information whatsoever.

[00:59:55.44] spk_4:
Absolutely. And so you’re like I don’t know what. And so a lot of times there’s just weird tactic that people do. It’s like, What do you think you should be paid? And it’s like, you know, don’t turn that on its head. You know exactly what this job is worth. Please put it out there so everyone is aware.

[01:00:12.08] spk_1:
Okay, My own conclusion,

[01:00:57.91] spk_4:
though, anyway, so we require that now, and that’s something that we all came together and talked about. I mean, I can’t say who I can’t remember who, like specifically brought it up as something a za point. But it was such an easy fix. Such an easy fix. And, you know, I’ve been you know, I keep on talking about past organizations I’ve been with, but, um, I’ve been in organizations where it’s like an easy fix, but it took three months to implement. It took a meeting une email thread, you know, Ah, heart to heart meeting about how this was. You know, sometimes if it’s easy just implemented, and this was one of those things that you know, start to finish, maybe took ah, week a week and 1/2 to get it all running a

[01:01:01.53] spk_1:
programming is all of a sudden it’s a required field when it wasn’t required before.

[01:01:05.85] spk_4:
I think things are red

[01:01:06.96] spk_1:
asterisk and has to be programmed in the back end that you can’t submit your form without that field being

[01:01:23.71] spk_4:
feel that there’s a there’s low hanging fruit that sometimes exists in an organization that no one’s really sat and looked at and been like, Why are we doing this? How can we do this differently? That’s in a more equitable way in an equitable, equitable, more former fashion. And I think you know, I also say that, you know, I bring up these this anecdotes just because, you know, I mean, there are a lot of other things that we’ve done that. Have? Really?

[01:01:39.11] spk_1:
Yeah. That’s a That’s a great one.

[01:01:40.66] spk_4:
Because lately that

[01:02:19.54] spk_1:
innocuous on its face, it’s completely innocuous. Leave it blank if you want. Your Blanco are based on experience. It sounds perfectly. We’re doing that that way for generations. Based on your experience, you’ll get big. But now it’s locked in. You know what? We’re being offered a salary at the low end, and you can draw your own conclusion that why that might be exactly okay and no longer enabling. All right, Um, that’s a great story. Yeah, Um I mean, yeah, there’s so much we can talk about. Yeah. You mentioned in the description how racism manifests differently. A different levels of an organization.

[01:02:23.60] spk_7:
Yeah.

[01:02:24.50] spk_1:
First, a little bit.

[01:03:03.42] spk_4:
Yeah. So great question. I have, um, the ah, you know, opportunity and the privilege to serve on a, um A It’s an advisory. It’s the Committee on Racial on Racial Equity for, um, the it’s called Organ Metro. So it’s Thea Thea area local regional government that it’s, I believe, spans three, if not four counties in the Portland Metro area. So it’s a governing govern form of government that overlooks all four of us

[01:03:06.10] spk_1:
have to show off that I know Portland is in Multnomah County.

[01:03:09.04] spk_4:
Yes, I have to show. I

[01:03:10.54] spk_1:
just have to marry. Let’s have to show that off. That completely

[01:07:16.58] spk_4:
how I, um seven. It’s very much like a, uh it’s very much like a, um you know, council, where there’s council members that represent each district. And there’s also a c 00 that runs the entire organisation and government. Um, So, um, I sit on a, um on a committee that is tasked with making sure that racial equity is something that that governing body prioritizes and also is taking into consideration when it’s pushing or advocating for anything. So all that to say is that we had an opportunity Teoh to touch base with some leaders, potential leaders within this, this governing body. And, um, I think one of the questions that came to the top and that I asked you because it kind of goes back to your question of like, um, racial inequity manifests itself in very different ways on. And so if you’re a you know, a CEO of an organization, um and you’re like, yes, I’m about d I work. I live in. I breathe it yada yada. I do all of it on and I’m really passionate about it. Yet you’re a white person, and then you have to, you know, foreign partnerships with other area organizations, and they’re all white as well to what happens when you get into a room or you’re having to have big, you know, decision making conversations and everyone and there is white. Um, and, um and people in there are saying things that aren’t racially equitable. Um, and you’re sitting there in your belief that I believe I believe d I work. I know that it’s there, but the gravity of all these other people agreeing with this false, you know, or agreeing with this, you know, racially an equitable belief. You’re gonna have to push against that in that scary right to go against the grain of like, the larger group on. And so I I ask that because you know, our I just I bring that up because I think the phrase that comes most to mind to me is someone said it to me and I forget why read Reddit? Orde said it. But it’s always stuck with me as you move up within an organization, racial inequity on racism becomes more sophisticated, so it’s much, much easier to detect. Unlike a direct service, rubber hits the road level as you get to that C suite level. You know of an organization, it becomes more nuanced. It becomes mawr about tokenism. It becomes more about how you’re playing folks of color against each other or not even talking about it at all. Um, so I think that’s something that I’ve, you know, experienced in scene, you know, on a direct service level. When I first started right out of college, you know, when I was working for direct service, the the direct service staff of Color, the black folks, we’re always the ones who got, you know, assigned to jobs or assigned the locations that were less than favorable. And so, um, you know, it’s pretty straightforward. And then, you know, as we moved up within the organization, we realized that there was a token izing thing going on at the middle middle management level. And so, you know, I think that’s just one thing that it manifest in in very different ways, you know, in different organizations, but also across different levels To one level of, you know, racism may look, you know, one middle level of racism may look completely different at one organization that it doesn’t the other two. And so that’s why it’s, like a very sinister thing. Um, Teoh to be able to, you know, figure out for an organization.

[01:07:39.98] spk_1:
Um, let’s see, where can we go and sort of wrap up? Um, What you tell me you want? Oh, let’s bring it back down toe back to in 10. Because they were supposed to have been, but I let I wandered. Um um, deliberately So what do you want? What you want to share about? Sort of in closing in about intense journey, The work, the work that remains

[01:09:03.37] spk_4:
Yeah. Go. Absolutely. I love that. You said the work that remains cause there’s always work that remains. I don’t want anyone. I certainly don’t want to put on any, um, you know, false pretenses that we are. We’re there as an organization. We have arrived. We’re not. We have There’s always work that needs to. That has remained. That is remaining. And so I think that’s where I would start is that we have we’re on our own journey. We are, um, you know, moving forward intentionally and with respect to make sure that we are covering all of our departments and making sure that, you know, everyone is a steward of this d I work and making sure that it permeates every corner of our our organization. So that’s where I would start. I think you know, if folks are out there that are wanting to or your I mean, I specifically I speak Teoh, um, you know, CEOs, executive directors of organizations that are white. Um, this is the best time to push this forward. And it’s going Teoh not be easy. That’s

[01:09:10.83] spk_1:
what he said is the best time.

[01:12:27.75] spk_4:
It’s the best time because, you know, this is a time where people are, you know, there are country is and I don’t want to get you know too far into the political part of things. But like, you know, there’s a lot going on in our country to and, um, non profits are, you know, specifically smaller grassroots roots nonprofits are, um, you know, suffering A lot of times, a smaller grassroots non profits were run by people of color, so you know, I think in the spirit of non profit, it’s incumbent upon, you know, leadership to make sure that they’re helping. Not only there constituents, their employees, but also other nonprofits. So what does that mean for those CEOs or executive directors? This is the time, you know. And again I say that not in like, ooh, the stars have aligned these air that this is the time every time is a good time, You know what I mean? There’s no bad time to do this. This had this work has to be done. Um and so I would say that, you know, it’s it’s something that will pay off for years to come to. You’re going tohave employees when you start to prioritize, you know, d I work and not only within, like the D I department, but also just d. I work across your organization across departments and start to look critically how you can change and morph and transform into. I’m an anti racist organisation. You’re going to realize that a Not only are you a happier person be your employees are happy to be there and happy to do work, because inherently, when you a drew racial inequity. You’re addressing a lot of other inequities as well. You’re addressing, you know, gender inequity. You’re addressing LGBT Q. I A plus in equity as well. Those things will come in that makes employees happier. And what does that do that starts informing how you interact with your employees? Not only its not only informs it, but it starts to shape the things that you hold near and dear, both individually and as an organization, and your employees and staff will see that they will see that and they will want to stay. And that Matt effects. You know, if for those data folks out there, you know, staff retention, you have folks that are going to stay for the long haul because they believe in the work that you dio and what happens, you know. I mean, a lot of people think, you know, in in organizations or in business, you know, the customer is always right. Customer’s always right customer first, you know, or your that your communities that you’re serving our first and yes, that’s right. And there’s a grain of truth in that. However, you can’t serve your customers or your um, your the communities in which you’re serving or living in. If your employees aren’t served first and aren’t being prioritized, it’s kind of like, ah, flip of mindset that you have to dio So that would be my encouragement. And that would be my, um my you know, last piece that I would end on Is that like, you know, this is the time to do it, you know, because you know it. At the end of the day, it helps serve your organization to make sure organization stronger, and it makes your employees stronger. And it makes the relationships that you have with your employees stronger. Likewise that didn’t that, then goes into your, you know, direct service groups. You know, your communities that you’re living within. It makes your connection in your relationships more sincere and more bonded.

[01:12:51.55] spk_1:
Tristin pen, community engagement and Equity manager at N 10 s Justin, Thanks so much.

[01:12:58.14] spk_4:
Thank you so much. I hope I made sense. Thank

[01:13:51.35] spk_1:
you very much. You made a lot of sense Last sense and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 ntc remember, were sponsored at the conference by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us next week. Privacy. Best practices. I told you it was coming. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo.

[01:14:41.79] spk_0:
A creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. I did the post production. How did I do? Let me know. Sam Liebowitz managed to stream show Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots non next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for February 21, 2020: Hiring Your Audit Firm & Equitable Compensation

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[00:00:14.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week. It’s Debra Elizabeth Finn in Boston, Massachusetts. She shared non profit

[00:00:28.99] spk_2:
radio with her group, Mission based Massachusetts. I’m always grateful to those of you who share the show. If you do, let me know. I will shout you out as

[00:00:38.00] spk_1:
well. Many thanks, Deborah. Thank you so much. Congratulations

[00:00:45.00] spk_2:
on being our listener of the week. I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Roman. Is, um if you poison to me with the idea that you missed today’s

[00:00:49.97] spk_1:
show hiring your audit firm when it’s time to change your auditors, What do you look for? And how do

[00:00:55.96] spk_2:
you best work together? I talked through the relationship with you. Eat each tomb, a partner at wegner-C.P.As

[00:01:09.51] spk_1:
and equitable compensation. Is your compensation schedule fair? What does that mean? And why should you care? Jean Takagi returns for a full discussion.

[00:01:11.77] spk_2:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law

[00:01:47.61] spk_1:
group. And he’s in the studio. Authorities take two planned giving relationship stories were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software, Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. I’m very pleased to welcome back to the show and to the studio you coach Doom. He’s a partner at wegner-C.P.As

[00:02:06.41] spk_2:
with over 13 years of experience. He works exclusively with tax exempt organizations. He oversees Wagner’s Form 9 90 nationwide preparation practice and leads their New York City operations. The firm is that wegner-C.P.As dot

[00:02:07.94] spk_1:
com. You know that And at wegner-C.P.As. Welcome back.

[00:02:12.68] spk_3:
Thank you for having your back.

[00:02:13.94] spk_1:
That’s a pleasure. Stand a little closer to the

[00:02:15.72] spk_2:
mike so we can hear you. Yes. There. Thank you.

[00:02:18.34] spk_1:
Um, getting from Madison, Wisconsin.

[00:02:21.16] spk_2:
Thank you. How cold is it? There now is pretty called people.

[00:02:26.03] spk_3:
When I left, it was like like 10 degrees. I don’t know. I don’t pay attention after I leave. Okay.

[00:02:32.36] spk_2:
When it gets below 20 does it matter? And it

[00:02:35.14] spk_3:
doesn’t matter. What

[00:02:35.93] spk_1:
Can you tell that between 10 and zero.

[00:02:38.90] spk_3:
I can You can’t. The marginal difference it is called. It’s

[00:02:42.71] spk_2:
just all called anything

[00:02:45.12] spk_3:
below one of the state f

[00:02:47.84] spk_1:
in cold. Okay, um, so we’re talking about the audit relationship. So first of

[00:02:50.63] spk_2:
all, what? What goes into What are we asking an order for him to do before we get into how to hire them. What is it we’re expecting from an audit?

[00:03:20.94] spk_3:
So, basically from an audit by the professional standards, you expect someone independent to go over your and simple terms like, I’m gonna get technical, go over your accounting records and internal controls, overcome over financial reporting and basic issue. Their opinion based on their all its procedures bedroom, not your financial statements are fairly stated in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles.

[00:03:30.63] spk_1:
Yeah, I know. And

[00:03:31.50] spk_3:
I

[00:03:31.62] spk_2:
don’t have my college accounting class.

[00:03:58.16] spk_3:
Yeah, absolutely. And based on the audit, he also expect some recommendations like they don’t have to give one, but ah, that the relationship is auditors have the expertise working with similar organizations and know the best practices. And if they identify any weaknesses in your systems, they’re also required to report that. But in addition, they also make recommendations as evaluated service.

[00:04:01.79] spk_2:
So it’s much more than just a numerical analysis. Absolutely. You’re talking about going into processes, trains, accountability, etcetera,

[00:04:10.88] spk_3:
right? Absolutely. Yeah. We going to accounting systems, looking at the system’s looking, get who’s involved in certain procedures and what controls are in place and everything. So

[00:04:24.65] spk_2:
meaning board members, senior employees going into those depends

[00:04:27.80] spk_3:
on who were working it, like really small organizations that may be one person organization. Then he would want board the moment as part of the internal controls. If the non profit is large enough, they can have the internal control environment between the organization but typically organizations. Most nonprofits. They’re off a certain small size, and you you want some board government’s involvement in Internal Control says Okay,

[00:05:01.30] spk_2:
and then and then these recommendations. You’re saying that’s based on having done hundreds of audits of similar type organizations. You could make some recommendations, give advice about I could be doing some things better. Absolutely there. I guess they’re okay, but you could be doing things will smarter,

[00:05:14.40] spk_3:
like doing it more efficiently or doing it a little differently and again like that can be some best practice recommendations as well as some recommendations to address certain weaknesses in the internal control system. So that can be two different things.

[00:05:30.04] spk_2:
Okay, so it’s so It’s like including business practices is we’re

[00:06:16.49] spk_3:
losing business practices as well, so we’re not required to his auditors to look at certain things. But people expects us to look at things, even if it’s not part of thought. It se RV makeover some insurance invoices gonna required to make sure that they have enough coverage for certain things. But that’s something that, based on looking at it, such as like external fraud coverage, like looking at the today’s environment. Barry People’s a concert, getting hacked and everything. You may have an insurance policy for cyber security. Let’s say it may cover up to $10,000 with a $5000 deductible. Well, that’s not really very much money, exactly. So if someone, then the may look at that and maybe recommend that you know you may want topped us a little bit by paying just a little in premium. Say another 100,000 premium, you increase that coverage from 110,000 or something like that.

[00:06:29.20] spk_2:
Okay, Okay. So I mean there’s so there’s lots of different areas you can just

[00:06:32.48] spk_3:
a little bit.

[00:06:33.64] spk_1:
Okay. Um, so we have a couple

[00:06:39.89] spk_2:
of minutes before our before our first break? Uhm, why don’t we get into the, uh

[00:06:42.11] spk_1:
oh. I do want to ask

[00:06:43.00] spk_2:
you how long is an audit process that’s based on the size of the farm? Really?

[00:07:00.19] spk_3:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. On the duration depends on how responsive each part iss basically so and so it can very quickly

[00:07:02.05] spk_1:
doesn’t have to be done on site or

[00:07:48.06] spk_3:
it does not have this day and age like out of organizations keep records electronically and it can be them through video conferencing, teleconferences and looking everything online and just document sharing. Yeah, and and absolutely and out off times, man. Dorrit is done on site daughter. They’re sitting in a conference room. Email the client email E Glendale back. So it’s like, you know so. But it’s face to face is good summits depends on preference. A cz Well, so are some people prefer it that pay and there’s advantages and dissidents just off face to face, like onside auditing versus virtual Auditing one is flexibility, but the danger is the order can direct longer if it’s totally virtual. And if both parties will not commit to the timeline. So,

[00:07:53.24] spk_2:
yeah, the timeline and document sharing like responsiveness,

[00:07:57.83] spk_3:
but it does not have to be done on site.

[00:08:08.83] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Cool. Um, all right. So we got another minute or so before before break. And so I So let’s start to get into what we’d be looking for in a firm, and then we’ll go more detail after our parents just want to be looking for

[00:08:16.64] spk_1:
I think

[00:08:48.37] spk_3:
the number one thing, that’s the most important thing. The expertise and experience. You want a firm that is capable off doing the audit. They have experience working with organizations that ah, have your the same needs. You may be operating under a separate federal grant. Let’s stay and on everything is different. Like just because an organization is a non profit, it doesn’t mean they’re doing the same things. They don’t have the same requirements. I think number one thing is to have the expertise toe do the audit. Okay,

[00:09:03.48] spk_2:
so that’s interesting. Like if your revenue stream is different than a similarly sized organization than the order is going to be very different. You’re saying if it’s your old federally funded versus revenue for service is

[00:09:05.10] spk_3:
or purely foundation

[00:09:10.11] spk_2:
foundation. Okay, so the different character of revenue not just don’t base it on they do audits of organizations that have 20 employees. And that’s about what we have, so that

[00:09:20.17] spk_3:
I know it’s all different. Okay,

[00:09:22.83] spk_1:
okay. All right. So let’s take this first break, which you’re a part of because it’s wegner-C.P.As, which I’m grateful for. So wegner-C.P.As, of course. Thank you. I’m saying all time

[00:09:43.53] spk_2:
forgot. Take their CPS way. No, we’re getting a dick. We’re getting detail about what the audit is, but basically, it’s kind of like a dentist. You get an idea of what? An order what wegner-C.P.As firm does for you. I’m typically saying, start your due diligence at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone because that’s how I like to communicate. But it is going to

[00:09:49.38] spk_1:
talk to you because you know, a partner in the firm, cause serious. So what’s that? If I’m picking up the phone

[00:10:08.10] spk_2:
and calling you and saying I looked at your was on the website, you might help us. We need some help with our, uh 9 90 Wait. I feel like we can’t. It’s beyond our capability doing in house anymore. What would that What would that look like? That call look like

[00:10:34.01] spk_3:
that Cole would look like. Basically, I would be asking some questions. Will identify your needs better on Do we have, like, Haman states? Are you registered then? And kind of try to understand what you have kind of try to understand your organization. And I would liketo look at your previous 9 90 kind of to someone else’s and such. And basically that you know what we can do for you. And if it works out, you will start working together. So

[00:10:41.70] spk_1:
Okay, Thank you. Start your

[00:10:42.09] spk_2:
due diligence at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone.

[00:10:45.04] spk_1:
Talk to you. It’s friendly, guy. I mean, he wouldn’t be on the show. I wouldn’t have it back

[00:10:51.13] spk_2:
if it wasn’t that way. So wegner-C.P.As dot com. Okay, let’s go back. Thio.

[00:10:56.35] spk_1:
So now this is a This is gonna

[00:11:01.03] spk_2:
be our audit. Hiring already firm is an

[00:11:01.34] spk_1:
r f p. Typical in this

[00:11:11.66] spk_3:
kind of peace. Typical. Like I would say 80% 90% off the time we receive an R F P and on. Then the process starts after that.

[00:11:15.16] spk_2:
Okay, how do we, as an organ, decide who to send the R. P too?

[00:11:55.88] spk_3:
Basically, um, ask for references, referrals from from somebody that you trust. So usually ah, it can be the board that may be deciding that. And they may be serving in other other organizations, which they may be familiar with. Their audit firms. Like that might be one thing. The other thing is a lot off firms are now using our source accounting firm that dough there today. Today, accounting. And they may. They work with a lot of water firms as well, and they may give you some recommendations based on your size and such. And or you can go Google firms. Yeah, Lam profits in the year, for example, and see who come up and then send our fees that day. So it’s got multiple ways off.

[00:12:13.56] spk_1:
It doesn’t have to

[00:12:16.45] spk_2:
be local, though. I mean, the point was you could do this. Could be done virtually. It

[00:12:19.26] spk_3:
doesn’t have to be a local. No,

[00:12:20.79] spk_1:
but use your networks

[00:12:21.94] spk_2:
absolutely aboard other CEOs, you know, rather CFO’s. You know, if that’s your situation, you know, use your networks. Okay. Um

[00:12:31.08] spk_1:
are there other sample R f p C

[00:12:41.24] spk_2:
o r. I mean, is this stuff on the web like, all crappy are thes. I mean, how do you develop this R p? Basically,

[00:12:52.84] spk_3:
you can start with a template and there’s a lot off them on stone line. You can point some, but I highly encourage people organizations toe really like first determine why you are looking for a change. Like, what is that you did not like with your current relationship and make sure that how you want that relationship change, make sure that you put those criterion the ft so that you’re looking like you kind of identify your needs and what you’re looking for. What’s important to you.

[00:13:13.84] spk_2:
OK, so, like, of turnover bothered you or fee or timetable?

[00:13:20.44] spk_3:
Absolutely. I think timetable is one of the many reasons by organizations Look for a new firm because the day prior firm are the firm that they use are not meeting their timelines.

[00:13:44.48] spk_2:
Okay? Meaning what? Like the organization should How does how does the timeline get get determined that that the firm may not be, er yeah, complying with

[00:14:26.74] spk_3:
to say, um and you’re an organization and you want to present your audit in June, tow the board of directors. Okay, The audit firm somehow cannot meet that deadline or a lot of times thes here. Some complaints from prospects, they say, Okay, our audit is done. Mother 9 90 doesn’t get done for another six months. So that maybe like a I was look at the tax and the audit as one engagement. Okay, it’s part of one relationship and that maybe time spared the audit is done on time, but then maybe the audit firm are the accounting firm has a separate department that does the tax work your 9 90 maybe that gets late. Guess it. Still, it is also, I think, is the point is like, I know what you want and have kind of like try to think about how you want that relationship to look like and put all those as your criteria in therapy. And as questions about have the firm would address those.

[00:14:50.09] spk_2:
What’s another reason besides the number one timing failures? What’s another reason you see people wanting toe change firms,

[00:15:25.64] spk_3:
increasing fees, and the other reason is if you’re a startup organization or some changes are happening, they say your small organizations. But you have growth plans, and the firm we are working with doesn’t have the expertise that you need as you grow so certain times like the small. When you’re small, you start with one firm. As you get bigger, your niece change and your current form is not able to meet them. And the other part might be responsiveness like you may not. You may be contacting your audit firm, and they don’t get back to you for weeks or, like the relationship kind off way,

[00:15:57.14] spk_2:
will feel that crappy customer service. Right? You are a vendor, you’re providing service. I don’t expect an email back in five minutes, but I think within 24 hours somebody should get back. Even if it’s this is a really busy day, you know? Can we talk later in the week or something? Give me something you’re inviting service something for

[00:16:07.53] spk_3:
the other reason is errors like sometimes errors are made and they don’t get found out until later. And once that’s why not. You know they may wanna change firms because then your expertise is being questioned.

[00:16:16.15] spk_2:
Yeah, How do? How do audit errors get found? I mean, it’s the audit. That’s just be finding errors. How do you find errors in your audit?

[00:16:32.34] spk_3:
Basically, maybe the audits firm missed procedure or Mr An Error that was present in the financial statements, Baby, they didn’t do enough. That’s thing. Maybe something may happen. I mean, that can’t be errors. How

[00:16:35.34] spk_2:
do you just how does the organization discovered the error

[00:16:38.18] spk_1:
It’s got me

[00:16:48.38] spk_3:
discovers in to waste. One is internally. Someone looks at it in a different from a different perspective, or something else comes up, they need to go back. And something doesn’t make sense. For example, today and then you go back and look at previous documents and find out that all this should have been treated differently, for example, and the audit firm did not catch it. Okay,

[00:17:05.89] spk_1:
okay. I’m guessing it’s probably

[00:17:07.13] spk_2:
not a board that often, you know, in in its review of the audit, I don’t see your average board member finding the mistakes in the audit.

[00:17:15.28] spk_4:
Typically not. They

[00:17:17.80] spk_1:
may

[00:17:37.69] spk_3:
find errors in maybe some narrative descriptions and such, but sometimes they do like some some board members are financial is everyday, be sits on the boards. They look at all the financials and they may be finding errors. But those errors are found before the artist gets issued, but still an error. So that kind of like whenever there’s an area that auditor didn’t catch, kindof like damages the credibility.

[00:17:46.96] spk_2:
Right? You’ve submitted it to the board as final. Okay.

[00:17:51.11] spk_1:
All right. So yeah, I mean, some

[00:17:52.95] spk_2:
organizations even have an order committee. Those are bigger non profit maps. Probably the universities, hospitals or whatever. Just a bigger. So they have no other committees, or presumably, yes. Then there’s expertise in that committee to scrutinize

[00:18:11.52] spk_3:
supposedly, hopefully rebuttable presumption in the year. For example, if you are required to have an audit your also required in order to comedy.

[00:18:18.78] spk_1:
Is that right? New York, you have to have an order

[00:18:20.31] spk_3:
committee will have toe.

[00:18:21.25] spk_2:
Okay. And what’s the threshold for an audit in New York? Current

[00:18:28.73] spk_3:
$750,000 in total revenue, assuming you have more than $25,000 in donations from New York.

[00:18:34.88] spk_2:
Okay, 25,000 in donations from New York and and 750,000 in total revenue

[00:18:40.80] spk_3:
or more yet

[00:18:42.15] spk_2:
born What? Right then That’s the trigger for in order to New York State. Yes, And I’m sure it varies widely across the States.

[00:18:48.65] spk_3:
It does. It does not. Every not every state has an audit committee requirement. For example, California has it, but their trash Holt is two million depends. And it’s also all its committed Rules are different in every state. Ho can be on the committee what they have to do. Everything is different. So

[00:19:06.82] spk_2:
you’ll be gratified to know that that Gene Takagi is in background nodding when you said the $2 million.

[00:19:15.74] spk_3:
That’s good to hear. I was right. You’ve indicated? Yeah,

[00:19:19.33] spk_2:
because I certainly don’t have the expertise. Not this question. Um

[00:19:21.34] spk_1:
okay, s so anything else you want to say

[00:19:23.71] spk_2:
about the therapy process before we get to evaluating the proposals that come in?

[00:19:30.86] spk_1:
Um, I think

[00:19:32.96] spk_3:
I think that’s pretty much it again. Like that said yes, you’re a portrait. It toe make

[00:19:37.24] spk_1:
it

[00:19:37.38] spk_3:
like a visual ist like, what do you wish tohave in your audit relationship and kind of go with that?

[00:19:44.16] spk_2:
Okay. All right. So now you get these, Uh, I guess you get what’s a reasonable. Number 44 proposals back or

[00:19:51.03] spk_1:
usually I

[00:20:13.75] spk_3:
see an average off three threes. The most common sometimes Thio. Sometimes more than that. I’ve seen up as much as 10. Yeah. Yeah. So they kind of issue for will not respond And something like that sometimes. Like something like when you center FB you asked, like, Are you going to respond or not? You know, So that’s the wrong questions that gets asked something. So

[00:20:20.75] spk_2:
and then if the firm doesn’t even respond to that

[00:20:23.01] spk_3:
than their low life Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:37.52] spk_2:
Don’t never refer them again. Exact. They don’t respond to your Are you going to respond to our f B question? Okay. All right. So you got you got your 3 to 4 proposals back. What are we doing now? I was looking for I would

[00:21:32.03] spk_3:
actually look for the, um, the overall response process like, are they? How did they respond to your initial when you sent direct appeals? Say, usually, now they come in e mails like, how are they responding to their art? A timely. And when you make appointments, are they late? Are they not late? Like in this stage, like a proposal stage if they’re not giving you the attention. Yeah, on. Very That’s a very bad sign off the overall relationship. I think the first impression, maybe last impression tow the time. So it’s really important to see how they handle things and always look for writing. What’s important relationship is not never make errors. But once you make an error, how do you recover from that? And I think it’s really important as well. And during the process, I think initially they take the time toe, ask us questions and today, or are you just sending like a blanket proposal without even

[00:21:47.09] spk_1:
That’s like asking a couple questions

[00:22:00.68] spk_2:
about what the perp, the R F P, says. That’s a good That’s a good sign. I mean, the firm is actually scrutinizing it. Paying close attention wants to be responsive to exactly what you’re asking. But they’re not sure exactly what you’re looking for, but also, but

[00:22:39.03] spk_3:
also basically see if they’re trying to identify your knees. I mean, you can put so much in writing in the Riviera. Peas are usually standards, and there’s so much else goes on at the firm. Are they trying to like understand? You’re really needs and how they can add value. Are they asking questions? So usually photography. You sent your most recent order to report and your 9 90 and ah, nde sometimes, like, put some description off what organization looks like now. But I think, um, the audit firm should be interested in the organization enough to ask some more questions on Try to learn more, as opposed to just

[00:22:48.29] spk_2:
just giving back the RP. But yeah, by the deadline,

[00:22:50.92] spk_3:
you have just told me in the other budgets for to me in the other speech church this much this is your fetus is the proposal versus taking the time to talk to them and asking questions and see

[00:23:04.96] spk_1:
OK, some engagement, like applying standard a common sense. You

[00:23:33.10] spk_2:
know, if you’re trying to hire a contractor for your home on dhe here, she’s not getting back to you, you know, at the at getting the business stage. That’s a bad sign, you know, or if they don’t seem to be listening to you about what it is you want to do. You know, you’re asking for their ideas and they don’t come back with ideas. They just come back with a fee you know the same. Same as same as hiring a vendor for your your audits facility. No, I haven’t sense, for God’s sake.

[00:24:09.96] spk_3:
The other thing I would look at as have they addressed all your points in the F B. Have they read the appear? Are you getting like a blanket proposal? I think that’s really important to you. And the hurting I would look at would be like, How is the presentation off the proposal like Is that looking sloppy? Are their errors like the spacing looks, beard or just aesthetics off the off? The proposal and errors in it like spelling errors, grammar errors like this? It’s free off errors. I think it’s important. Yeah, spokes. That looks like it’s somebody reviewing them before you send it to you.

[00:24:19.00] spk_1:
Um, what about a presentation? Is that is that typical

[00:24:21.84] spk_2:
toe have? Ah, maybe you narrow it down from 4 to 2 and you want them both to make a presentation to the board. Is that is that an unreasonable? That’s not

[00:25:16.25] spk_3:
unreasonable, And but that does not happen too often than the smaller organizations. Probably your listener base probably doesn’t happen. The presentations doesn’t happen that way. what does happen, though They, uh, there’s like a conference call the Save it with the treasure or the audit committee chair at the accountant or someone just follows up. Let’s say they I don’t. You get three and you eliminate Bond. Now you have the two, and you just have a called them or a meeting with them, but it doesn’t typically become like a formal presentation. But that does happen, though that’s not unusual to ask. Or definitely, I would encourage. That depends on how much time you want to spend, too.

[00:25:21.49] spk_2:
Okay, and then whether you want to get your board involved,

[00:25:24.17] spk_3:
I mean, it’s really hard to get people together. And Monroe

[00:25:28.00] spk_2:
suffered rumors to that effect about how difficult that can be. Um,

[00:25:33.64] spk_1:
you refer to something

[00:25:34.59] spk_2:
called AA Peer Review report on non ordered firms. What is that?

[00:26:23.45] spk_3:
Basically ah, every C p. A firm that does attestation engagements like audits reveals they need to go through a peer review every three years. Peer review is another C p. A firm basically comes in, doesn’t audit off your order to brag or like attestation practice, so it’s not only artistic look at reviews, they look at complications. They look at audits and just to see your following to professional standards and look at the quality off the work. And if you’re not doing good for Earth than you get findings just like you give findings. Oh, non profit organization in your artists. Yeah, the peer review C p a. Firm does the same thing for you. There’s, like levels or findings and such. But typically, I would look for I would definitely request that period the report. Even if there’s findings, you need to know what they are and have the firm responded to them.

[00:26:37.17] spk_2:
Okay, so it’s not something that’s public, but you can ask for it from the firm’s you’re considering.

[00:26:41.85] spk_3:
I I believe it’s public, too. You can go to the I. C. P s website and look for it. I’m pretty sure the American Institute of Certified Public Contents Yep. And find

[00:26:52.87] spk_2:
all the peer review reports for all

[00:26:54.24] spk_3:
the servi. They should be all day. Okay, Okay. But I would just ask for it in the part off the f B and they should put in the proposal.

[00:27:05.99] spk_2:
Okay, We have just about a minute left. Okay, So how about getting started. What? You’re like a number one or two. Top advice for for getting this new relationship off the ground,

[00:27:49.51] spk_3:
I would say, Set the expectations specialty timelines and make sure everyone is on the same page. So I think the dissatisfactions happens when there’s an expectation gap this one person is thinking it’s gonna have on this bay and the other one just don’t assume, just confirm and just have a meeting with thought it firm and come up. It agreed upon timeline. I think it’s really important, and it will work sport they like. If the organization still not provide the information, the auditors cannot do the work. So what we do in every audit, the established time lines, we start with men, they need order to be done by. And then we sent them the list and they can tell us when they can be ready. And then we’ll find time between when they can hear them and they need it done. I kind of like established dead pay,

[00:28:04.93] spk_2:
working backwards from when they

[00:28:06.08] spk_3:
need exact Exactly. So it just always keep the end in mind. Okay,

[00:28:15.78] spk_2:
let’s wrap it up there. Thank you. Very much you do. Partner wegner-C.P.As. The firm is wegner-C.P.As dot

[00:28:17.12] spk_1:
com and at wegner-C.P.As Thanks for coming back to the show and studio. Pleasure.

[00:28:23.62] spk_2:
Having a big thank you You okay? Cracking like a 14 year old, uh,

[00:28:29.10] spk_1:
need to take a break. Wegner. No cook about software. So

[00:28:30.99] spk_2:
what’s all the kinds of Whitney wegner wegner on the head?

[00:28:33.47] spk_1:
Cook a Mountain software is this one quote. We’ve been very happy

[00:28:36.64] spk_2:
with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they’re always there to help. Walk me through it and

[00:28:42.74] spk_1:
quote that Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. Cougar Mountain

[00:28:46.63] spk_2:
has a free 60 day trial, which you’ll find on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant.

[00:29:17.39] spk_1:
Martin. Let’s do our live love. Ah, and it goes out. Thio Tip of Florida Washington D. C oh, cool Washington Not too often to Washington. Tucson, Arizona, Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York, Ontario, Calif. Ontario, Canada. Um, Seattle, Washington. Awesome. Upper West Norcross, Georgia South east of it Going abroad Moscow, Russia Thank you for being with us. Live love out to Moscow, Seoul, South Korea On your jasio consomme. Nita Live love out there. Tehran, Iran Also, Tehran’s been with us a couple times getting turning it, Theo loyal,

[00:29:41.74] spk_2:
live listeners. So the live love goes out and the pleasantries go out to the podcast audience. That’s our over 13,000 listeners on your

[00:29:45.55] spk_1:
own device, your own timetable, whatever fits into your life. I’m

[00:29:45.79] spk_2:
glad that it does. Thank you very much. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners.

[00:29:53.49] spk_1:
Time for tony Steak, too. Planned giving relationship stories

[00:29:55.60] spk_2:
is the current video that you will find a tony-martignetti dot com because when I did

[00:30:14.64] spk_1:
plan giving relationships, I left. The story’s out. Relationships are with people, and I left the people out of the first video. I talked about how the relationship gets started, the value of long term relationships to your organization and to you personally. And then I left out all the examples, so that’s that’s not I mean, it’s good as far as it goes, but it’s like half the story. If you can talk about relationships, how about some examples? So

[00:30:56.15] spk_2:
in plan giving relationships to the stories I give you some stories of, um, Eleanor and, uh, Evelyn and Barbara and James the before I tell stories about and, uh, you know I’m sure there have been hundreds. Well, there’s definitely 100. But, you know, some people are more memorable, memorable than others. And those are the four that came to mind first. So some touching stories in that video, which you’ll find at tony-martignetti dot com

[00:31:07.05] spk_1:
Now what a pleasure to welcome to the studio. Jean Takagi. He’s here in the studio in New York City. He’s the managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits

[00:31:15.33] spk_2:
the wildly popular non profit law blogged dot

[00:31:24.34] spk_1:
com. He’s the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non profit lawyer. He’s at G Tack. He’s Jean Jean, the law machine. Welcome to the studio, Gene. Too cocky. This is awesome. Done. It absolutely is. It’s 10 years since your first appearance on the show,

[00:31:35.23] spk_2:
and you’ve been a contributor for, like, nine and

[00:31:41.43] spk_1:
1/2 years or something. And here you are in the studio. I love it. Absolutely love it. Thanks so much. I’m so glad it worked out.

[00:31:43.37] spk_4:
I’m so happy to be here. It’s actually my first time in any studios, so it’s Ah, it’s a pleasure,

[00:31:49.80] spk_1:
Your life to your life up to this moment has brought you here. It’s all culminated here. This is the pinnacle. It’s all downhill from here.

[00:31:56.06] spk_4:
Mom can be proud.

[00:31:58.08] spk_1:
Sorry. Going down from here. Now, Um, this is

[00:32:00.83] spk_2:
wonderful. Really Is very, very good to see you. Um,

[00:32:04.67] spk_1:
So, um, this is a This is a little tough, touchy topic. We, uh you and I had a touchy topic

[00:32:10.01] spk_2:
when we talked about diversity equity and inclusion. Um,

[00:32:19.21] spk_1:
this one is, Ah, equitable compensation. Uh, you know, you you frame it for us. You please do. I think we

[00:32:39.13] spk_4:
could look at it in so many different dimensions. Tony mean one is is Do we pay? Everybody is Lois. Salary is absolutely possible, so we can try to serve as many people as possible. And that’s one level one level is we have this huge pay gap between men and women. What are we doing about that? There’s also gaps based on race on and other protected class issues as well. And sometimes it’s not just the legal problem.

[00:32:49.42] spk_2:
It’s not just the protected classes,

[00:32:57.34] spk_4:
right? It legally protected. Yeah, it’s just why are we paying this person differently from this person and is that institutionalized. Is that just personal discretion? Who are the decision makers there? Is there so many levels to this? But I agree can be a very controversial area,

[00:33:30.36] spk_2:
controversial and insightful. These are hard questions, you know? What should the gap be between the highest paid person in the organization and the lowest paid person organization? What should that ratio look like? And how do we justify it? Um and yeah, I I just I think I mentioned it, but I want to make drive home the point that we’re not just talking about classes that are legally protected.

[00:33:32.58] spk_4:
Yeah, I think we go go beyond that. And I think what you said about the highest paid to the lowest paid gap is really interesting. I think for CEOs it’s close to 285 to 1.

[00:33:44.60] spk_1:
Is that average non profits

[00:33:48.15] spk_4:
for for profit companies, non profit? It’s probably better. I don’t know if there’s been a study done on that, Um, but California is considering, Ah bill. Now that says, if your gap is more than 300 to 1, highest paid the lowest paid, typically the CEO versus sort of the average line worker We’re gonna increase your tax anywhere from like 2 to 6% on that. So it’s interesting to see now that the lock take over and say, We don’t like these pay imbalances and this is what we’re going to do about it,

[00:34:23.72] spk_1:
Yeah. How did Attorney practicing in California, How do you feel

[00:34:24.23] spk_2:
about the level of regulation in California? Do

[00:34:30.80] spk_1:
you feel it? You feel it’s burdensome? Or do you? I’m sure it’s. I’m sure you feel it’s right headed, but do you feel it’s excessive sometimes, or or not?

[00:34:37.30] spk_2:
Just like it’s the role of state government Thio make things fair and equitable for everybody.

[00:34:44.29] spk_4:
It’s a tricky question. I

[00:34:45.56] spk_1:
think some of

[00:35:30.68] spk_4:
the intent is is right. So the intent of the A G on the attorney general, typically the charity regulator in California, is to protect donors protect charitable dollars to ensure that they’re not being misused. But the problem can be is when some decisions are made about how regulations should be shaped or what type of bills the E A. G should sponsor or find a sponsor for, um, are they taking a few isolated, high profile problems in creating a solution for that and then that is, in effect creating a huge burden for everybody else who’s never done anything wrong. And what are the pros and cons when you look at its sector wide? And I think they don’t have the expertise or the people power to be able to make those decisions on their own Now, to their credit, they’ve been good about reaching out. We’ve actually sort of consulted with the A G from time to time in working discussion groups about how laws might impact the broader sector. But oftentimes, big corporations are in there here more often than the small Guy

[00:36:07.66] spk_2:
G is reaching out to you right now. They have lobbyists and professionals. Alright, alright, just I’ve wondered about that because it’s an activist state and a lot of states follow the California leader. At least look to see what California’s doing in lots of different lots of different areas. Environment, non profits of its wide

[00:36:10.71] spk_4:
Yeah, well should should add, though, that the non profit activists have actually been very good about this as well. In part, it partly why, when you eat was talking about the audit threshold in New York being 750,000. I think in California’s two million, because the non profit said That’s too low. It’s gonna be too expensive to have audits at that level. So we actually we’re more lenient on that front on the audit.

[00:36:36.18] spk_1:
Okay? All right. So, yeah, it’s not always stringent.

[00:36:46.03] spk_2:
CE stringency greater stringency. But it’s, you know, sort of recognized as, ah, highly legislated ST Ah, highly regulated state.

[00:36:49.07] spk_4:
I think that’s fair to say, and it makes it all the more important for nonprofits to actually speak up. Make sure that their legislators on dear regulatory bodies know what they want. Really important.

[00:37:03.12] spk_1:
So we’re talking about the

[00:37:29.82] spk_2:
compensation way, said it briefly, But again, it merits a little more attention. We’re talking about going beyond what the laws call for me. We have the Americans with disability act. We have the Civil Rights Act of 1964. We have other law bodies of law that govern compensation. But we’re looking as this more at is ah, as a just an equitable ethical moral issue.

[00:37:30.52] spk_1:
Yeah, and even if

[00:37:31.31] spk_4:
it doesn’t violate the law because I’m a lawyer, I always have to say

[00:37:34.44] spk_1:
Well, the law plays

[00:37:35.38] spk_4:
a part because even if you win a lawsuit when there’s an employee claim, just a have a lawsuit against you is incredibly demoralizing. It looks bad to your stakeholders, internal and external. So even if you’re lawfully doing everything right, if you’re ethically having some challenges or your stakeholders stopped believing in, you don’t believe that you’re you’re living into your values. You’ve got much, much bigger problems and just legal ones.

[00:38:03.01] spk_1:
Yeah, you’re trying to do social change,

[00:38:04.55] spk_2:
work social good. But your own organization is unfairly compensated that the salaries are out of whack in your own organization. But you’re trying to improve conditions for the porters or

[00:38:17.14] spk_1:
even if not, if it saves the environment. You’re trying

[00:38:19.23] spk_2:
to do social change, work and improve the state of the world. But your own organization is not a model for that.

[00:38:40.26] spk_4:
That and you can imagine. This gets really controversial when we talk about minimum wage and say, Well, we’re a social service organization that serves low income communities. We’ve got to pay minimum wage for workers. But in a city like New York City or San Francisco, that means they can’t even afford to live in the city right Now I’ve got to commute from the suburbs. And is that really equitable to your staff? Is that what you want to display to everybody else supporting you?

[00:38:50.72] spk_1:
You have this poverty myth, right? There are a lot of

[00:39:16.52] spk_2:
assumptions underlying what we get, where what we’re talking about the inequity on and one of them and then they get deeper. But one of them is this poverty myth that we’re doing social change, work and improving the world. And so, you know, that should be gratifying enough to you. So you get a 40% lower salary than someone doing comparable work. I don’t know another organization or because we feel we feel way can’t afford to pay you more or you get you get a discount from the for profit sector because you’re doing social good work. And that should be gratifying to you. And that has value. So we pay you less.

[00:39:31.73] spk_4:
And it’s really sad to say that actually, some employers, some non profit employers, see that as a legitimate screen that we are going to pay lower than we even can in order to find the most altruistic people possible. I don’t like that kind of idea, but you’ve heard

[00:39:47.22] spk_1:
that articulated.

[00:39:55.47] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, So to find the most altruistic people we’re gonna we’re gonna pay the least. So we’re gonna

[00:40:03.71] spk_1:
get what you pay for, you know? And And what kind of what kind of commitment or you’re getting out of workers who know that there being paid a bottom feeder salary?

[00:40:06.41] spk_4:
Yeah, again, something I strongly disagree with. But that thinking is still still out there.

[00:40:20.07] spk_2:
Okay, I wouldn’t have thought that it would be articulated, but you’ve heard it. A CZ. A theory of recruitment.

[00:40:21.88] spk_4:
Yeah, you’ll hear it in research studies done where they do surveys of organizations, and they explain their compensation systems and you’ll see what some of the rational czar and it pops up.

[00:40:35.01] spk_2:
Okay. All right. We got a couple minutes before break.

[00:40:36.25] spk_1:
Let’s talk about some

[00:40:36.82] spk_2:
of these other cultural assumptions that are underlying cause

[00:40:39.40] spk_1:
this is

[00:41:11.45] spk_2:
where it gets, you know, kind of ah gets unfair. Um, the professional degrees, um, immediately convey or no are automatically convey a value to the organization. So somebody who’s an MBA or an attorney or a c p a. No. Irrespective of whether the professional designation enhances the value. Literally, really. But just way value that over way immediately imply a value to that, even if the job doesn’t require that kind of skill or that kind of professional education.

[00:41:19.15] spk_4:
Yeah, and not to knock professional education.

[00:41:22.54] spk_1:
I got one. You’ve got one? Yeah,

[00:41:24.66] spk_4:
it’s great. But, um, life experience can sometimes be much more valuable or experienced in the job sort of characteristics and duties itself could be more more valuable than professional response are some sorry professional experience in an unrelated field. But so many organizations use education is kind of a factor of where they’re going to set their pay, and they set educational standards that they want when it doesn’t seem applicable to what the job requires. And we see organizations in the four profit world actually leave that thinking, especially in the tech industry, right? They don’t care if you have a graduate degree from Stanford, if you’ve got a bunch of coding experience that’s directly relevant to what they’re creating at the moment. So I think more non profit have got to get away from that thinking that somehow an educational degree in whatever is necessarily going to be something that makes the person more valuable to them,

[00:42:54.49] spk_2:
then the network life experience. Correct. Okay. Okay, um, the, uh the belief that, um, productivity or output is more important than, um the relationship building and how you’re making people feel in the organization and and outside the organization to know, producing paper reports and Versace the ah, the feelings toward the organization that you’re you’re engendering through your work.

[00:43:06.08] spk_4:
Yeah, I think that’s also another danger. Where there’s in the thinking of professionalizing the sector, we’re all about metrics, right? We need to get metrics that we have to get back to our funders to show that we’re creating value. So all of a sudden the employees are incentivized to create better metrics on that may be at the expense of developing longer term relationships. I will actually move the mission forward Maur in the long run than it will in the short run. So we get caught up in the whole same problem that Fortune five hundred’s get caught up in satisfying shareholder spirit. Immediate short term returns, not thinking aboutthe long game. So I think that that is an issue

[00:43:40.56] spk_2:
being too short term thinking for the next board meeting what what our numbers look like for this quarter versus long term value.

[00:43:46.95] spk_4:
Right? Long term value. Also, employee retention being part of that long term value and the value that that having employees stay with you and doing their work, feeling that that sense of pride in what they’re doing, an accomplishment could be so much more valuable than serving an extra 5% meals. In Week three,

[00:44:24.77] spk_2:
we just replayed Adrian, sergeant on relationship fundraising for just last week for a valve on the Valentine’s Day show February 14th and he talked a lot. Now this is just devote to fundraising and where you and I are talking broader. But as it relates to fund raising too many organizations ignoring the lifetime value of a donor, how do you make your donors feel over the long term versus did you get? Did you get a 20% increase in their annual gift this year?

[00:44:36.39] spk_4:
Yeah, and so what do you mean organizational level? And what are you telling your employees? If you say no, you should try to get as much as he can. Now, don’t worry about the long term value of the donor relationships that don’t spend extra time with them. You can hit more people. That’s the wrong message.

[00:44:50.56] spk_2:
Get the car last break. Ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build

[00:45:02.52] spk_1:
relationship. We’re talking about relationships again. I mean, it’s it’s pervasive relationships, Just like last week again, they worked to build relationships with journalists who mattered

[00:45:21.29] spk_2:
to them so that when you pick up when you make a call or you send an email, the journalist replies, That’s because of a relationship. A preexisting relationship. Turn two can help you do that. Their former journalists, including at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They will help you build meaningful media relationships that can lead to great coverage there. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got

[00:45:29.38] spk_1:
butt loads more

[00:45:29.86] spk_2:
time for equitable compensation with Jean Takagi in the

[00:45:36.93] spk_1:
studio. Um, where do you want

[00:45:37.58] spk_2:
to go from here? Uh,

[00:45:44.76] spk_1:
any any other cultural assumptions that annoy the hell out of you? Well,

[00:47:18.32] spk_4:
I I think generally speaking, we think we may be as employers giving people benefits when we say, Hey, we’re gonna give you a plus, you know, added match matching contribution to your +401 K plan, for example. But we may not take into account. A lot of our employees have their own financial issues and may not be able to contribute to +41 K plans, so they don’t get that benefit of all of the match, right? So again, equitable considerations would say, Well, maybe we should open up this benefit so that everybody can access to it has access to it. So maybe it gets put into a flexible spending accounts so they can take care of their elder parents, and not just to their 401 K. Or maybe we give them the cash so they couldn’t pay off a student loan. So things like benefits have a place in this. The other cultural assumptions. To make it, we have to figure out more. And I think maybe the biggest issue for the pay gap on the gender basis, maybe letting people figure out where and when they can work and don’t live on to the assumptions that you have to provide face time. It has to be in the office always because so many people who are the primary child givers who are in the workforce that’s where the pay gap gets hit really, really hard. And that’s where women, who once they once they have child Children and decide that they’re going to be the primary caregiver, which is most of the time relative to the man. You know, that’s That’s where they never recover

[00:47:28.33] spk_2:
their career. Yeah, it’s a downward trajectory for their career. For what, 18 years or something? Conceivably. Okay,

[00:47:28.90] spk_1:
another thes. They’re all

[00:47:30.66] spk_2:
good issues for a conversation in the

[00:47:32.72] spk_1:
office conversation with board. Another one is

[00:47:37.57] spk_2:
the the how percentage increases in in salary perpetuate the gap because you’re giving everybody a percentage of the high or low that they’ve

[00:47:48.78] spk_1:
already got. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not, uh, quill a breaking that a word equalizing, not equalizing. You’re just continuing

[00:47:56.74] spk_2:
the the disparity through percentage, you know, annual percentage increases.

[00:48:30.73] spk_4:
Yeah, and I think a payout. It is probably something that every organization should do and actually just ask themselves. How did we determine what the pay rates are for each of these positions? Ah, and is it equitable? Not just top to bottom, but across, you know. Are we paying one person for the same position so much more than another position, another person, even though the other person might actually be doing better work just because they had more of an educational background. So all of those things need to be looked at? Questioned, I think, tracked. So you’re if you’re gonna make these decisions in the future that are more equitable, you have to be able to explain what factors you’re looking at in order to change somebody’s compensation. And why that and how that’s applied is it applied evenly and doesn’t explain why there’s a disparity now in pay between two different people or three different people who occupy the same position.

[00:48:56.37] spk_2:
Um, you can create in your organization a pay equity team.

[00:49:04.22] spk_4:
Yeah, that’s yeah, I’m on the board of an organization called Compass Point in San Francisco.

[00:49:07.61] spk_2:
In a point to that article shortly

[00:49:54.01] spk_4:
Terrific and, yeah, having an removing the decision making from just one executive director, but who might set the caps just to make sure that there’s no overcompensation involved in that the budget is being complied with. But having an equity panel within the organization made up of peers, um, looking at self evaluations and trying to determine what the compensation rates should be within again. A permitted range. Think that’s a really great form of distributed leadership where you’re giving more power to your team, um, and letting them decide what the compensation rates can be now. There were definitely some cons to that issue as well. With more responsibility, there’s gonna be more criticism. But we found out that that it can work really, really well. And people sometimes are actually more conservative about what they want to give than the executive director. And then just having a conversation about that, um, can can be very helpful. But it’s ah, it’s a really interesting a strategy to employ for some nonprofits who have reached that level of, ah, evolution, if you will, in inequity considerations.

[00:50:24.40] spk_2:
Compass point, um, walks through. I think it’s the interim executive director wrote The Post’s Walks through there. I guess it was a three year process. Was it a three year process there of evaluating and adjusting pay throughout the organization, I think, was a two or three year process. It’s

[00:51:15.93] spk_4:
actually been ongoing since 2016 which is really when it started, and it’s still it’s still an ongoing and sometimes a painful process of making things more equitable as you raised the issues and surface them there. You know there’s some pains. You find out some inequities of the past and you try to correct them. And some people are happy about that. Some people aren’t on and you know, the intersectionality of different ah issues if you well, it’s not just gender. It’s not just ages, not just race. There’s so many issues to think about in determining whether compensation is unfair or fair. Andi can be interpreted in different ways, so it is a challenge. But having a team there to help decide this instead of one person makes

[00:52:26.44] spk_2:
a huge difference, also empowering as well. And you know it defeats this myth that we can’t talk about pay at work because everybody’s pay is now known to the to the, uh, to the Pay Equity committee, the team that you’ve just created. So we are talking about it. I want to point people to the this article. It’s it’s actually two different block posts at Compass Point dot or GE on their blogged. It’s called reimagining compensation. It’s time to stop building inequities in the past from the past port. Wanting to Andre is very open about the difficulties that they went through and some people got very large increases. And she alludes to even there, being some decreases over time in salary like stage decreases, Thio make things fair and equitable. It’s quite a process we talked about. Yeah, and I

[00:52:49.76] spk_4:
think you know that’s a team decision. People have to look at this from a state law perspective as well. And so you have to be careful. Not Thio, through mandatory action, decreased one person’s salary to raise another. You have to be careful about that. So we had the luxury of having some change capital because the foundation was really supportive of what we did. And so here’s a big shout out to foundations for for unrestricted support, it really can do great things for for creating equity within an organization.

[00:53:03.75] spk_1:
Um, let’s talk some

[00:53:04.64] spk_2:
about, uh, well, the board. The board has a role here, too.

[00:53:22.97] spk_4:
Yeah, I think I’m still even when we talk about distributed leadership, which I mentioned before, the board still sets the tone at the top. Um, and I think it’s really incumbent upon the board to actually set the values of the organization. So it makes sense that not only are organizations acting to further the mission, but they’ve got to do it in a way that furthers their values as well.

[00:53:38.25] spk_2:
A cz part of their oversight on

[00:53:43.34] spk_1:
and really they’re there. Yeah, their responsibility to

[00:53:44.69] spk_2:
the organization. I’m taking it out of the fiduciary capacity and just making it, Ah, moral obligation that they have to the organization.

[00:54:09.96] spk_4:
Yeah. It’s not just about looking at the financials and saying, Can we survive another year? It’s It’s about creating the relationships, as you said, to make this the sustainable organization that lives its values and furthers its mission for a number of years so it can really actually drive through what they’re trying to do.

[00:54:11.29] spk_2:
Okay, we have about another minute or so before we gotta wrap. So, what would you like to whatever not talked about that? You want to say what?

[00:54:20.07] spk_4:
Um well, they’re a couple things, so I’m gonna leave the parking tax issue aside, then.

[00:54:26.26] spk_1:
Oh, I forgot. The host is so lackluster. This show it’s unbelievable. I don’t know why people listen. The hostess so crummy. Um, yeah, the all right next time we’ll get that next time. This is just about him. Report. God the hostess

[00:55:26.85] spk_4:
So crummy. Um, so I guess along the lines here some tips, maybe of creating more of an equity based compensation system within an organization. And I think, first audit, audit the organization. Try to figure out why you’re paying a tw what level? I have a board level awareness of what’s going on. I’m create a pay equity panel numb within your staff levels. Um, and take a look at where the disparities happen. Most often are the book benefits that I told you about, like the 401 K, but also in bonuses on dhe. We find that our studies have found that that bonus is often goto white men at the much different level than persons of color, especially women who are persons of color.

[00:55:34.29] spk_2:
All right, Thank you, Jean. Thank you very much. Opening up this topics. He’s managing attorney of neo, the non profit exempt organizations Law group. You’ll find him at G Tack and today you’ll find him in the studio in New York City. So glad to have your gene. What a pleasure.

[00:55:44.66] spk_4:
Thanks so much tony and great

[00:55:50.82] spk_1:
to see you, Sam. Yes. Next week. Get to the next

[00:55:52.47] spk_2:
level with Sherry Kwame Taylor. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com

[00:57:01.32] spk_1:
were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Coca Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein Do with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for February 15, 2019: DEI & Governance

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My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: DEI & Governance
Diversity, equity and inclusion run deeper than having folks of color on your board. Are you managing treatment, access and opportunity for non-white males? Gene Takagi and I talk through the issues, goals and methods. He’s our legal contributor and principal at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.




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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with like Oper diagnosis if you made me breathe in the idea that you missed today’s show. D I and governance, diversity, equity and inclusion run deeper than having folks of color on your board. Are you managing treatment, access and opportunity for non white males? Jean Takagi and I talk through the issues, goals and methods. He’s our legal contributor and principal at Neo Non-profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group on Tony Steak, too planned giving one piece at a time. We’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant but Wagner CPS guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye. Tell US Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mole donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine Always a genuine pleasure to welcome Jean Takagi back to the show. He’s managing attorney of Neo, the Non-profit and exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s the American Bar Association’s twenty sixteen, outstanding non-profit lawyer. He’s at G Tak. You know, it means Gene. Gene, the law machine. Welcome back, Jean Takagi. Thanks, Tony. How are you? It’s a pleasure to have you. I’m well, thank you. Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you as well. Thank you. I think maybe this is just the first shot misses. And you’ve been on before? Yeah. You have been on to the new year. No, I haven’t. I think this might be the first one was the first buyer, and this is February fifteen thousand. Alright, well, so we wish you a happy New year anyway, on DH and I I hear you wishing it back. So thank you very much. It’s never too late. Never too late to say pleasant things to each other. Um all right. So diversity, diversity, equity and include vision. I feel like we should first identify our terms. That is that is that everybody knows that diversity, equity and inclusion are not the same thing. This is not like, what’s the law, you know, aiding and abetting. You know the law, he says. The synonyms mean the exact same thing. Break and enter or, you know, a dahna bet this’s not this is not that this is not that. So what? What? How would you define diversity? Arika? Well, I think you know, it’s a great point that that it’s not a belt and suspenders approach these three different terms, meaning three different things. So diversity, I think, is the range in way people different people differ, and it’s used often in reference to race, ethnicity, gender, age, national origin is big, and the news now religion, disability, sexual identity and orientation, socioeconomic status, marital status, language, physical appearance and just a number of other characteristics. So it’s just reflects the way that we’re all different from one another. Equity is the quality of being there, I think, with respect her rights and treatment, and access and opportunity and advancement for all people. It’s kind of the constitutional principles that we think of equal protections of the law and all of us having the right toe. Life, liberty and justice and persons and organizations that work towards a more equitable society focus on understanding the root causes of the inequities, and they’re looking to identify and eliminate barriers and, of course, increase justice and fairness, both on a micro level on on a macro level and that final term Tony inclusion is really the state of creating or maintaining environments in which any individual or group Khun B and feel welcomed, respected, supported and valley to fully participate, embracing differences among different people. So diversity gets us one part of the way. But without inclusion, diversity may mean very little. Yeah, on organization could be diverse. But that doesn’t mean that it’s inclusive because divers is just a photograph of ah, multi racial, multi ethnic, multi gender aboard. But that doesn’t mean that that that that board is inclusive on DH, creating the right kinds of environments like you’re talking about. Yeah, absolutely right. So if we you know, we might approach that that topic and in a bit. But if we just bring in people of marginalized communities like certain minority groups or certain gender groups or all of the other categories we talked about and they’re just tokens but not given any authority, and they just make for the good picture that you were talking about. Well, that’s not inclusive. Or and that’s not equitable at all. That’s just having diversity for diversity. Stake? Yeah. Yeah, for a good photograph and a like a check box or something. All right. So is this. Ah, well, this is an area that non-profits are, uh, working on. I mean, it’s an area that our whole countries working on. It’s it’s in our culture with black lives, matter and metoo and, uh, marriage, marital equality. So it’s this is not certainly certainly not unique to non-profits, but but our our national consciousness has been raised. Um, how do you feel? Or how are non-profits faring? I mean, and what do you see among the groups that you work with? Two? Sure. I mean, it’s a great point, Tony, that this is in our national conscience. And, uh, there are a lot of tension and controversies where these what I will think our our moral issues are at play, and we’re looking at legal solutions on sometimes opposites sides of what some people will consider moral and Justin, others might say, are not a matter of morality but my position. And I think the position of most of the organizations we’ve worked within. And I’ll note that we do work in San Francisco, and we work with them non-profits in New York as well. And those air, certainly, um, uh, centers that that might be seen as more liberal than other areas. But, uh, there are, I think, these basic beliefs that, you know, some people are born with certain advantages or disadvantages, no choice of their own. Some people are born with certain characteristics or abilities, and some are not have no choice of their own. And many of us believe that we should work TTO help assure that all people have equal rights, equal protection, equal opportunities. And that’s sort of the moral case for saying, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion in our non-profits really matters because if we’re not leading in these areas is a nonprofit sector there’s there’s a question about that’s not a core value, really, is what the work we’re doing just focused on benefiting certain groups and maintaining status quo and improving the status quote for certain people with power and privilege. So that’s that’s kind of where I stand on that. Yeah, um, we may as well just call this right out. I mean, I feel an obligation to do that, You know, when we say certain people, some people no fault of their own, whenever you know, born with privilege and power and status. I think talking well, We’re talking about white males. There’s a There’s a white male supremacy culture in the country. And, um, that’s what creates structures that are oppressive, you know, day to day to people who don’t enjoy that power and have that that perceived status and and you know it. It creates a lack of opportunity and oppression and, ah, difficulty and just like day to day struggle, that it’s hard. It’s hard to. It’s hard for others for me to appreciate. I try, but it’s hard to understand the full the full impact of it. And I appreciate that, Tony. It’s I mean, it’s a different I mean obviously a complex and difficult to discuss subject. It makes us all uncomfortable, which is part of the reason we need to have these discussions on the board level and on a broader organizational level. Let me sort of make one sort of caveat to all of this. In America, with white male culture can be seen is, you know, the dominant color alter with the power and privilege very fairly in various duitz. Observe that, and that’s obviously a very informed opinion that you have with others and I’ll even say it’s not an opinion. It really is a fact. But marginalization goes beyond race to, you know, and and gender. It goes to sexual identity and orientation. Religion, nationality, wealth. Wealth is a big one. I think age now disabilities, um and I don’t necessarily, you know, have the capacity to understand all of those aspects, and nobody really has the capacity to ask, Understand the aspects of marginalization for all the different groups that we may have. And we do categorize people on a number of different levels and have to recognize that these are off often overlapping and interdependent zsystems um, that that involved discrimination and disadvantage, and some people refer to this is intersectionality. But it is something that we’re all dealing with this country and the one that you raise. Maybe it’s the one that’s primarily on her, uh, our attention right now. And that’s kind of the white male dominated, uh, power and privileged class of individuals and how our institutions have developed over our history with that perspective on informed by that group on how difficult it is to change on recognize the problems that we have if we just continue to go down that path and try to make little incremental changes to the system to make it a little bit fair rather than to think about rethinking some of these and re imagining how how more equitable systems could take their place. But the white male power structure, though I that’s the that’s the root of all of it. It it seems, you know, the more I read and think that’s that’s the foundation of it. Of all the all the inequities, I myself apologize. We’ve got to take a break, but we’re coming right back to this gene. Stay right there. But I have to take care of our sponsors, too, Pursuing their newest free book, The Art of First Impressions. It’s all acquisition. To attract, acquire new donors, you have to make a smashing first impression. They re book has the six guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy. How to identify your unique value, plus creative tips. You’ll find it on the listener landing page at Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P for please. Now let’s go back, Tio, My conversation with Gene and D. I and governance. All right, So Jean, you know, and so I think that’s the route is the white male supremacy, Um, and you know, And so you and I have to have a safe, you know, safe space for conversation. And it so happens there thirteen thousand people who are going to listen to this. But, you know, you and I, we know each other. So we I for the first time in, like, eight and a half years, I’m feeling a little awkward, but, um, I think if I say that, then that helps me. Teo, we’ll give it voice and just recognize it and say that’s that’s how I’m feeling. But we have to, you know, we’re two people who have known each other for for those eight and a half years, we’ve had lots of conversations where? Thirteen thousand people? Well, years ago, it was only fifteen hundred. But now it’s thirteen thousand. Have listened, and we’ve always been fine. So you know, you’re in a safe space. I’m in a safe space way. Have we have good heads when we have good judgment and, you know, just we have to just, ah, acknowledge there’s a little There was a little attention. At least I was feeling it you know, and just have toe. Okay. You know, these are just the’s air manageable topics. Fair enough. That sounds okay. Absolutely. Tony. And I’m appreciate you having you know, this conversation. It’s obviously one again that’s super sensitive, and I’m sort of, um, the beneficiary of certain powers and privileges myself, so I can appreciate. While I’m of Asian American descent and I have dealt with certain inequities because of that, I can certainly appreciate the many powers and privileges of I’ve had because of my background, including being a male and including living in AA community, where Asian American males are not that uncommon. So it’s a difficult discussion tohave, and everybody’s gonna have a different perspective on this, but I think again, making sure that people do have this discussion at every table. So at the board table, at the dinner table with your family, I think these are important discussions and, um way only benefit by talking about this. Even if there are disagreements. And even if there are attentions and a certain level of uncomfortable feeling that I get generated by them on get’s, you know, we challenge ourselves. I mean, you know, you have your own business. You’ve you’ve broken out. You’ve you’ve challenged yourself in lots of ways. I have my own business. I have a show that, you know, half years ago didn’t exist, you know, So we’re open to challenge, and so we shouldn’t fear another challenge. We’re just taking on another challenge. I gets a sensitive topic, but that doesn’t mean it’s insurmountable by any by any stretch we’re both accustomed to challenge. So we’re challenging ourselves. I mean, you spent twenty minutes on Twitter, hominy, hominy, uh, you know, postings the seasons, challenge yourself and break outside. And those who don’t think differently think, think like everybody else. And where would we be if we all were of that sort? You know, I mean, you see that stuff on Twitter and Facebook all the time, And so now we’re, you know, I mean, you and I live it, Ah, lot, because we have our own businesses. But now we’re doing it in a a different way. A different arena, but still the same thing. It’s the same concept. It’s a it’s a challenge. And it’s ah, it’s overcome oppcoll I agree? Absolutely. Absolutely. If you don’t have the difficult discussions, then you’re probably not advancing a zoo, group or organization. Very well, right? And if you don’t challenge yourself, you’re not. You’re not advancing and growing as a person. That’s because that’s what I was getting to absolutely agree. So All right, so what if you’re on a board and you feel you’ve, you feel like, uh, the board does not reflect or the leadership of the organization. Let’s even bring in the CEO of senior leadership. But you’re a boardmember because we’re talking about defying governance. Um, and you don’t feel like the that that leadership, as I defined it, represents the the people that you’re serving doesn’t represent the communities that you’re serving. What do you think you should do? Hyre It’s a fantastic question, and I think that’s the one that everybody is asking right now, Tony. And partly because we keep getting these results, uh, that show that the nonprofit sector has really not been leading by example in terms of diversity on its board of directors or diversity in its leadership. I think the first thing we need to do is acknowledge that is that we’ve been doing pretty much a terrible job is a nonprofit sector in terms of getting diversity on our boards and diversity in an inclusive way, of course, so I wanted to raise. There was a survey by board source in two thousand seventeen called Leading with intent, and it found that ninety percent of CEOs and board chairs were white. Eighty four percent of board members were white, and twenty seven percent of non-profit boards were entirely wait. And these are bear improvements over a similar survey that they conducted more than twenty years ago. So, yeah, ah ah, highly disproportionate group and we were talking about power and privilege. Um, a really disproportionate number of Non-profit non-profit leaders in governance and CEO rolls are white. And when we talk about this in terms of larger organizations on and sort of the hyre paying CEO position, the gender differences come out as well, where a lot of white males again are dominating on those boards. And in those CEO position, Um, somewhat reflective of, you know, for-profit Fortune five hundred company CEOs and boards where there’s been actual movement, Teo increase att least on a gender basis. Some diversity on their boards. But Non-profits so far have been just doing the terrible drops, I think. Acknowledging that and saying whatever we’ve been doing so far, his not been very good. I think that’s the first place to start. Okay, So you could say, you know, our board is not unique. Our leadership. Sorry of the way. Our seven. Our leadership is not unique. You know, here’s the statistics. The trend is awful. The numbers compared to the twenty years ago, it’s either flat or just our bare improvement there or it’s a walk back. So we’re not unique, but we But we can be leaders on DH. It doesn’t make me comfortable, Teo to be on a to be a part of this organization, that it doesn’t reflect the people we’re serving. Um, first thing I suppose you are a boardmember. Er I don’t Should you? What would you What would you suggest in terms of bringing it up? Would you bring it up in a board meeting now? Probably not mean, you should. You want to have ah, a couple of back channel discussions first, right before you before you make this a, uh ah, ah, anew. What’s it called on agendas? You do boardmember is all the time A new Your business new business before you bring it up is there are lots of hard work that hard work for me to find. If you have a five minute discussion at the end of the board meeting about this topic, it’s not really gonna go. Yeah, you’re very far not introduce it as an issue and put it really on the back burner, if that’s how you’re going to raise it. So I agree some back channel discussions among some of the board leadership and bringing in the CEO to say, You know, this has been a problem in the sector. Let’s take a look at our own board and lets see, do we have this issue as well? And there’s a little bit of, you know, something that’s been called in the racial context. White fragility about being very defensive about about this and think, you know, Yeah, the sector is awful at diversity and equity on board. But you know what? Our boards really different. Even though you know, our composition might exactly make up our community. We’ve got a few people you know who are persons of color, or we’ve got a few people who were women or however you wantto look a diverse. But do they have to testify that you’re being very defensive? Very defenses? I think, having open discussions about, well, what would this organization’s board look like? Ideally, in an ideal world, what would this board be composed of? What different perspectives can we bring in? And why would we want diversity on our board, Our specific board? We know it’s a problem across the sector. We know that maybe on an organizational level, we haven’t always done the best job. But we feel like we have our hearts in the right place. Well, what would this ideally look like? And I think maybe that’s the starting point of discussion to say, Why do we want diversity? What tack of diversity do we want? And ideally, what would that bring out our organization? Why would that make us on it further our mission in a more effective and efficient way. Why would that make our organization be more sustainable over the long run? And maybe after that sort of sort of going for the positive first, maybe after that going? Well, what happens if we don’t do anything about it? Are we going to still be relevant? Are we still going to be around in ten or twenty years? Are we going to still be able to serve our populations as well? If we don’t do anything about these things. So I think those are the questions you ask. Maybe start with the positive and then go to the alternatives. What if we don’t do anything? I’m feeling like Tio. If the board is goingto have, uh, focus on this and have meetings around this and that a professional facilitator could be really valuable because, you know, because of the things that that I talked about and you you seem to feel too, you know, ten minutes ago, and that’s just two of us who know each other very well. You know, but I can imagine a board of eight or ten people, and the defensiveness starts coming up. I could see where a professional facilitator could be really valuable. Absolutely, Tony. And one who has experience dealing with DEA issues. Right, Because they they are particularly sensitive. Just a strategic management consultant who doesn’t deal with this and who might be a member of a powered and privileged class might not have the same perspectives and sensitivities to be ableto bring in the discussion than the understandings of the board members. Teo, be able to move this discussion forward in a way that will actually promote inclusiveness and equity in the organization. Just when would you just said d? I was just thinking this is a really It’s a good thing they don’t call it, uh, equity inclusion and diversity. That would be I’d improvised explosive device. And this this stuff can be really explosive. So if you’re not so I think I just if you’re not careful, you could you could you? If you’re not careful, you could die from the i e d of D I Yeah, that’s absolutely all sorts of possible acronyms. And I hear E. D. I is a frequent acronym on this issue as well. But, yeah, put the put the letters together in the wrong order, and those are the bad things that can happen. You could die from the from the explosiveness of deeds of I of d I. So All right, So what are some of the positives? And, you know, we were going to take inventory. The positives. Then we’re going to take inventory of the negatives to the fear the change. Some people gonna lose their board slot over years. This is obviously not gonna happen in six months. It’s not even happening. One board cycle. But if it’s going to if the organization will be committed to it, you know, there’s going to be costs and benefits. But so what? What? What? Can we identify some of the benefits of having a board that does represent Ah, leadership? Sorry, I keep saying board, but leadership that does reflect the community that we’re serving. What We know someone we know, some advantages. I mean, I because I could spitball a couple, but what do you What do you think? Well, I I think maybe the common sense advantage that we can all probably think about say, that makes sense is that when you got diverse perspectives and diverse backgrounds, it’s going to result in. Mohr informed better decision making because it’s not a bunch of people with the same experiences on the same backgrounds in the same kind of understandings of certain things. You’ve got more, more different thoughts, a different thought. Leadership in there and diverse leadership attracts broader community support. It also leads to greater equities because you’re now thinking about well how to our programs or how our services effect not only just sort of people in general, but segments of our communities. How are we doing with our African American communities or with our Latin next communities or with our Asian American communities with our LGBT communities? And you know those air things that we can all sort of bring in more diverse boards in an inclusive, diversity. Inclusive manner, of course, brings more different perspectives. Beings Mohr leadership that’s informed by different ideas and different backgrounds on DH that really helps out on, you know, also different networks. You’re opening up the opportunities for for for networking and who could be brought to the organization by having a more representative, diverse and inclusive board just absolutely latto napor networks and I think thunders now are starting to become very interested in this area’s well. So in terms of attracting the funders, if you rely, at least in part, on having grants coming from foundations, um, there’s trying to become more and more interested in this space. And part of the reason why is because there has been a lot of backlash against Thunder’s not taking into account DEA in the past, on their being called out and there have been different books. I’m not sure if you’ve been sort of talking with people about these areas, but on and had your argast has been, he wrote Winners Take all, which was on The New York Times top one hundred books list and that talks about sort of power and privilege and philanthropy and how, it seems, you know, serves to perpetuate inequities. Well, foundations are sensitive to that, and I know there are some foundations like the Ford Foundation, that are actually really moving, um, to address some of the inequities that have been caused by by foundations. There’s rob racial Stanford, who just wrote just e-giving who talks about tax policy and how wealth and philanthropic giving like that by maybe like somebody like Jeff Bezos who pledged two billion dollars to charity is really something that deserves not our gratitude but our scrutiny because of his ability to shape policy. You hung that money, influence things going forward and again in a way that a white male sees importance but not addressing it with a broader community. So I think the philanthropic sector is more interested in funding in these areas now, as they’ve been called out on it. Uh, and so if you’re a charity just dependent upon it, it’s gonna really be important out to your funders, many of them and increasingly, mohr that you’ve got a diverse board that has taken into account different populations that it may serve. Are we gonna take a break? Someone we did have on this show just just a few weeks of December. Edgar Villanueva, Uh, the author of the book de Colonizing Wealth and his thesis that use money as as healing For all the past inequities over centuries, Edgar is excellent. Also. Jean, When we come back, let’s let’s talk some about some of the downsides, the fears that we’re going to have to categorise and and list and deal with also among the leadership for this change. Andi, let’s talk some about token ization, too. Weinger CPAs anew Archive Webinar foryou. Accounting update. What has changed that Wagner knows intimately. If you can get intimate with accounting, you shouldn’t get into it with accountants. But but that’s hard. We’re talking about the topics that they know intimately, and you just need to know them a little bit so you don’t need to be intimate with them like the accounting update. New requirements for financial statements. You find this at regular cps dot com. Click Resource is then Webinars. Now time for Tony Steak, too. Take your plan. Giving one piece at a time. I was watching a tree get cut down in my father’s yard like Abraham like, uh, and I was thinking about planned giving. I did not think about honesty. I was thinking about No, wait, That was, Who was the tree? That was George Washington, not Abraham Lincoln, right? Cutting this tree down. That was George Washington. Um, but I wasn’t thinking about either of those Anyway, I was thinking about plans e-giving there’s a guy up in in the bucket and he throws a rope around a branch so that it doesn’t fall uncontrolled after he cuts it. And that’s just like you need to have a couple things in place. Simple things. Just simple rope, that’s all. Nothing elaborate but simple rope thrown over another branch. You need to have a couple things in place before you start your plan giving like, you want to know who your prospects are going to be. We’re gonna be promoting this, too. You wanna have some? Ah, simple plan for going ahead. And then you can go ahead and start your promotion. The cutting. And that would be, of course. You start with bequest. Just take it one piece at a time. Just the way I watched this guy cut this tree down One branch of the time it took ah, full eight hour day and including all the clean up. So you take it one step at a time. And, of course, I’ve got clips of ah, thiss tree surgery, all as part of my video at tony martignetti dot com. Now let’s go back, Teo. Gene on DH talk about D I. Diversity, equity and inclusion and governance. So, Jean, some of the some of the negatives that we’re going to have to deal with, um what what do you fear of change? I mean, I’ll throw a fear of change. Like I said earlier, some boardmember is going to lose their seats. I don’t know that hands are going to be going up and saying, OK, I’ll surrender my seat, even though I’ve got I’ve got two terms left because our by-laws called for three times. But I’ll give up my last two terms for there to be a person of color in my seat. I don’t think that’s gonna happen. So what are what are some of the negatives were going to deal with? Sure. So, you know, in addition to the one that you mentioned about, well, you know, does that mean I have to go was a boardmember because I’m a white male and be replaced by somebody else? That’s not necessarily the case, but that is certainly one of the fears that comes up more. General fear is maybe that Hey, we’ve got some great board members here, but they happen to be white. Does that mean we have to let them go? So that’s one of this year’s They’re stuck on a government structure that says, okay, maybe we were goingto have at nine boardmember Zohra ratio of four to ten, and you have ten board members and nine happened to be white. And you think they’re all great people? You don’t want to lose any of them, so the side as well, we can’t make our board more diverse without losing good people. And that’s a difficult discussion. Tohave One solution maybe increased the size of your board. You go. It’s not It’s not an either or, you know, good, bad. Kind of No, that’s a center in institutional structure. Way. Have to sacrifice some loose, um, good white people so we can get people of color on know just what you suggested. How about we just expand the size of the board? Yeah, but in some cases, it might be good for some people to step aside. And I say that with respect to age as well, because, well, we haven’t talked about it very much. Ah, Non-profit boards tend to be kind of older to Tony as you may know, uh, and young people, particularly millennials. Andi, even some Jen acts are just not getting onto boards. And they’re losing interest because nobody’s recruiting them. So people stepping aside to let in younger generations new thoughts, new ideas, new backgrounds and bring them onto the board, I think is just incredibly important as well. Yeah. You know something? I’m I’m thinking, um, you know, any of these solutions or methods? I really I don’t want to call a solution a method of process that we’re talking about. Jean, you know, may or may not work for aboard, but I guess what my goal for this show is just to encourage the conversations. You need to figure out what’s gonna work best for your organization. Um, you you know? So yeah, you need to You need to tailor these ideas of just But but think about it, you know, be introspective. And if there’s if there’s some If there’s angst, you know, talk about it and give it voice and think about a way a way forward of making the situation better. I could not agree any more with you, Tonia. Absolutely right. I did want to address some of the other challenges, a swell that you raised about having these discussions. Because while it’s great to say, you should have these difficult discussions, there are these barriers to them. And so I think it’s okay to acknowledge that there barriers, including this fear of losing good board members or maybe getting kicked off the board yourself. But, you know, in addition to that, you know, people are thinking about well, in our mission really isn’t about diversity on, and it isn’t about racial equity. Our mission is about something else. It’s to increase, huh? Education in the sciences or it’s tio promote the art or to do something something else doesn’t Apparently, att leased the surface level have, ah, racial lens on it. So people think, Well, it’s working, invest and to do this right, Tony, you talked about bringing it consultant. The board has got to be prepared to invest money and time. You’ve got to do it on the budgeting process and you’ve got to say, diversity, equity inclusion. This is one of our core values, and we are going to invest as if it is a core values, and that is another barrier it’s going to cost money, it’s going to take time. It’s going to take time out of your board meetings because this is a difficult discussion that you’re not goingto have in fifteen minutes. Uh, it’s going to take time, and it’s going to be probably something that goes on forever. So these aren’t short term solutions that solved a particular initiative. These are ongoing discussions that aboard needs tto have to mean make sure that it continues to promote and observe its core values. And I would say that board members, individually you talked about the board of the whole thing, that this is the rule to have these discussions Well, I’m going to argue that a boardmember individually has a fiduciary duty. If D. IE is a core value of the organization to bring it up, Teo, talk with first, you know, private conversations with individual more members. But make sure that that goes to the full board, because if acting in the best interests of the organization is your fiduciary duty, which it is, and G I is a core, value the organization while doing things that further your mission and are consistent with your core values. That is your legal duty. And while you might not get into any legal liability situation for not observing him, it’s still your legal duty to do it. So I would say it’s really imperative upon individual board members who have identified D. I as in core Valley of their organization to make sure that it gets stated that way. And that discussion goes to the board and that investments are made on decisions are made, which will cost something. So to make investment means you’ve got to take money and time out of something else and put it towards this. It’s now time to start doing that for a great many organizations, take money from something else, or find right, raise more money. Correct. There may be sources of money that, uh, that will support this kind of work. Um, I don’t know, but but it’s again it’s not an either or thank you, that’s that’s excellent the way you explained Gene the individual responsibility, because if yeah, because if we all just looked to the if we all just looked to the collective and the collective never raises it, I mean, the collective is just a the collective just a bunch of people. And so if the collective never acts, then that none of the people are. If none of the people are acting, then the collective will never act. That’s why I’m trying to say it sticks me in the circle. Curious way of getting to things. But so, you know, if if every individual’s waiting for every other one, it’s never gonna happen. Um, okay. Uh, all right. When we come back, I got taking a break. When we come back, let’s talk some about organization, Gene. Tell us can use more money. You need a new revenue source. You get a long stream of passive revenue When cos you refer process their credit card transactions through Tello’s. It’s that simple. You give fifty percent of each individual fee and those things add up. That’s the long stream. Month after month after month. Watch the video. Then send your potential companies to watch the video. You’ll find the video at Tony that m a slash Tony Tello’s Let’s do the live listener love. Um it’s ah goes out wherever you might be from Guten Dog which would be Germany to Ni hao, which would be China two Konnichi wa which would be Korea. Um konnichi wa is what konnichi wa is Japan. I’m sorry on genes on Kenichi while Japan, of course. Because Korea is Anya Haserot. That’s right. Yes. Uh, So the live love goes out and that’s for the listeners abroad. But the live love goes to the domestic listeners. Nonetheless, sometimes I do abroad first. Sometimes I do domestic first. So this time I’m doing their broad first But the domestic listeners throughout their fifty states because it’s not only the continental United States we’ll bring in Alaska and Hawaii also, of course, the live love goes out there. So wherever you are listening, live love out to you and the podcast pleasantries, too are vast podcast audience. I’m grateful that you are with us been subscribing the numbers keep rising pleasantries to our pod cast audience. Okay, Jeanne, Um so organization. What? What does that look like? When people of color, uh, or other, uh, other classes are brought in as tokens. What? What does that look like? What that looks like Tony is it’s awful. Well, let’s use the person of color a CZ example. You have, ah, vast majority of the the current board composition being white, and that board decides what we need. Toe add a person of color onto our board. Um, so they bring in one person of color, maybe an African American individual. They bring them on the board, and then they take the picture that we talked about at the beginning of this show. It makes for a better picture than it wass before. Um, but that individual boardmember is really not given any additional power or duties. They’re not asked for their different perspectives that they bring onto the board. There’s no plan to incorporate that person’s background in knowledge to influence what mate be done with the organization’s planning efforts or its future board governance structures. So that person is just brought in there for the good looking photo that shows a more diverse board than it wass on DH by excluding such person from from riel positions of influence and power. Yeah, that’s really just making them a token. And that’s what we’re talking. There’s the key. Yeah, they have. No, they have no power in the organization. There’s no plan for rewarding sharing the power. Um, yeah, the power center isn’t changing. And if it’s one person that that’s probably that to me, that would be a red flag has to be a pretty small board for one person, too, to make a difference and to be incorporated into power structures adequately, Um, and you know the kind of something you know, sometimes you’ll see the diversity committee, right? And so the so the people of color, the lgbtq, you folks, whatever three older folks they’re put on the diversity committee, and that’s it. She really just be called the Divers committee. We have a committee that’s diverse, That’s it. That’s what they do. That’s their structure. That’s their charge to be diverse. Okay, we have a diverse committee, you know, Um, you know, it’s it’s it’s insulting on its It’s also counterproductive because people know when they’re tokens when when they’re not given the levers of power or access to them. People know that, you know, they feel it, and it’s just going toe. It’s gonna create resentment and animosity. It’s It’s counterproductive to have ah, a diverse committee. I agree. Chun hee. So in there, lots of stories where persons of color who get invited onto boards find themselves being the only, UH, person of color on that board and being appointed to a diversity committee. Um, and that gets to be a routine. They join other boards with similar sort of bored compositions, and again, they’re asked to be part of a diversity committee. And, well, if that diversity committees actually given enough power and influence to effect change so that diversity, in an inclusive way is really strengthened in the organization and its governance. Well, that’s one thing. But if that diversity committee, year after year, is just for the photo op, uh, and just for the Grant proposal that says we have one, well, that’s really classic token ization. And and that’s something that is counterproductive in the incredibly you’d be better off not having that individual joined the board. That will be a terrible board experience for that person as well. Let’s talk about how this is a e-giving deviating from what I was thinking, but it is important. How do you share the levers of power? A. CZ. So if the leadership is, is all white what? What do they do? What do they need to do? Latto give real power, too. The their newly new people of color, etcetera. They’re newly diverse board members. What does that look like? Sharing the levers of power. What? You know, I need you to talk a little bit so I can think about it cause I just thought of it myself. How do you do that? How do you start to share power? Great question. And that would be kind of one of those generative questions that board should have. Ah, long discussion about once identified D. E A. Is something they want to prioritise and adopted the core values, and I think they’re a few ways to do it. The first way is to decide well, the first thing to do is recognize every boardmember actually has no interference. Individual power. Every boardmember individually has no power unless it’s delegated to them individually. While they have no power. Collectively, as the board, they’re the ultimate power of the board of the organization. So collectively they have power individually, they have no power. So bringing on one person, colored just to be an individual boardmember not delegating any authority to that individual is classic. Token is but you have officers. So you have a chairman of the board. You may have a vice chair, you may have a CEO. You may have a development director, some of these air staff positions in all volunteer organizations that may all be volunteer positions. And there may be mixes, obviously, but their officers who do have individual authority and that where you have to think about is, is our diversity in an inclusive manner being affected through our officer positions there. Maybe committee positions that have power as well. Where they’re delegated with the authority to do things on behalf of the board and executive committee would be, you know, a typical committee that’s often asked to sort of take over Mohr of the day to day oversight. Then the full board would be and is a person of color, or whatever marginalized group that you’re trying to increase. The first report is that person, or are those people representative on those committees that have important power? And then, beyond that, maybe the other way to think about it is influence. So while I said each individual boardmember has no power different board members have considerable influence. And if you have a board meeting that’s, you know two hours long if you’ve got a board of, like, fifteen people, there’s only so much that each person Khun say and allow everybody to participate right, And that’s often controlled by the chair of the board, sometimes by the executives who run the board meetings, which isn’t always a great way to do it. But somebody is facilitating and latto presiding over the board and the board meetings. And to do that in a way that recognizes that persons from marginalized groups the person that you asked to be on the board, to represent some of those ideas and perspectives and thoughts, well, that might be unfair to say, you know, you’re brought on to represent every person who’s you know in that group. Yeah, that’s on. So just yeah, just to bring those people just to get at least their individual perspectives coming from that background or characterization, that can be important. But if the board members just don’t acknowledge that, you know, and just give them five minutes to speak at a you know to our board meeting because everybody else needs there five minutes. That’s not going to do much to effect change, either, You know, So so. But promotion, um, get mentoring access to the leadership Onda leadership that that hears them. I’d also welcoming challenges to the leadership, you know, not mutiny. But there’s a lot between silence and mutiny. There’s a broad spectrum there, and so welcoming challenges to the authority and even even in public. If you know if something comes up in public and it seems wrong that the challenge to that shouldn’t be defensiveness, marginalization and rebuking, it should be acknowledgment. I’m trying to listen and learn. You know? What is that? What’s the What’s the What’s the source of the conflict that’s been pointed out? Mean those air? Those are things that that I was thinking of. Two as a cz ways of sharing power and e-giving e-giving voice. I got to take our last break. Gene Hoexter give. Can you use more money? Need a new revenue source? Here’s a second way mobile giving. You can learn about it with text to gives five part email mini course. Fiv e mails won the day and you will know no more about text e-giving mobile giving than you did six days earlier. I did it, and I learned it’s easy to get started. It’s cheaper. It’s easy for your donors. It’s cheap for you to get started. There’s just a couple of lessons that come out of this many course to get the email many course Text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine nine. And thankfully, we’ve got several more minutes, but probably not enough, uh, for D I and governance. Anything else you want to add? Jean, too. I threw something out that I took a break, because that was that was that unfair exercise of power? I’m sorry, E. I got it. I got to take care of the sponsors. I didn’t mean to do it that way. So anything you want, toe, respond to what I just said. I’m going to echo actually what you said because avoiding conflict going for consensus based decision making on boards, I think is really, um, enhances the white supremacy culture or a majority or power privileged supremacy culture. So I think embracing some sort of conflict is important. Having a long term focus and not just a short return focus is really important not to looking to just better perfect the status quo when you recognize that the status quo was largely designed by one group for their own benefit is also another important factor. Now I’ll just leave you with a few. Resource is so bored. Source has got some excellent subject matters, particularly those written by Veneta Walker, who used to be their vice president and now engaged in consulting. And I’m going to have a chance to talk with Brunetta about four diversity on a webinar coming up in March. So just plug that a little bit and say, look for her readings because she’s a really leader in this space and you can learn a lot. Okay? And now you’re going to be on this Webinar in March, which I’m sure you’re going to promote at the non-profit. Law blogged dot com, right? Absolutely. Okay, so people need to be subscribing to that. You’ve heard my admonition hundreds of times, subscribed to non-profit law blob dot com and you’ll you’ll find out info about Jean and on the Web in our with Veneta, we still have some time left. Jean What? What do you want to talk about? Well, I’m going to say a few more things than what one is that I was going to mention Edgar Villanueva’s Well, because his book, It’s remarkable de colonizing wealth, and I really appreciated your show with that girl. That was such an interesting show. He’s excellent. He’s excellent. Yeah, the next thing is, maybe once you figured out what you want to do in terms of Why are you bringing diversity on? And how is it going to help your organization pursue or an advance its mission in a better way. That’s the time to start to now, reach out to communities of color on DH. You’re gonna have to go through different ways because the traditional way of bringing in boards for most non-profits that have self perpetuating board, we just ask our friends or we asked our contacts and very much, you know, and I think there’s an evolutionary biology principle of affiliating with, you know, people who are of our similar characteristics, all to do with the selfish gene and and all of that and so that that’s our comfort zone. That’s what we may be predisposed to because it had sametz solutionary advantage in the past just sort of congregate with one another that we’re very much alike. But we’ve got a break out of that. And if you want diversity, you got to reach out and go beyond that. Acknowledge that you may have those those predispositions, but you’ve got to reach out. Consider Boardmember Ching Services, identity based professional affinity groups, colleges, community leaders reach out and be uncomfortable. As you said, Tony, be uncomfortable, get to know new people and get your organization to know new people and new groups and figure out how to do it right. If you’re really open and honest about it, these people are going to want to help us. Well, yeah. Go into the communities that you are under represented by that you’re under representing, uh, set up some meetings. Um, you know, maybe it’s Maybe it’s among your benefit community, The people you’re helping talk to them or uh, but as you said, Gene, you know, goingto community’s going to networks that you haven’t been in. People take a meeting, they’ll take a meeting. And if your genuine and sincere they’re going to hear that, they’re going to hear that and they’re going, They’re going to want to help you. All right, Gene hears. I don’t know if we covered this adequately again. My goal was just to get people consciousness raised and get them thinking about and talking about these things. But I want I want each of us to listen back to this, and you and I’ll decide together whether we should say some more on this or we feel like we’ve we’ve done enough. Not that now that we’ve covered the whole topic. But have we, uh, Have we met the goal? Okay, but then you know what? I set the goal. So I’m open to a different goal to see, see that white powers creeping in and set the goal. And then I’m saying that we’re going to judge it by the goal that I said, So it’s bad. So you and I will collaborate together, and we’ll decide if we’re going together. If we’re going to do this topic some more sound good. I love to do with you and love to actually talk about how you can implement some of these ideas in by-laws and governing documents from illegal angle. There’s your record to it. Okay, It’s up to you if it’s upto us together, if we want to do some more. All right. So he’s Jean Takagi non-profit law block dot com. You got to subscribe to that and follow him. He’s at G tak Gene. Thank you so much for real. Genuine and could have been even tougher. But but it wasn’t as tough as it could have been. So I thank you for that conversation. Thanks so much. Really Appreciate it. Tony. Have a great day. Thanks, Gene, next week. I don’t know if you missed any part of today’s show. I beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash Pursuing Capital P by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us credit card payment processing your passive revenue stream, Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers Claire Meyerhoff. Family Blitzes. The Line producer shows Social Media Is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great you’re listening to the talking alternate network e-giving. E-giving. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show Yawned Potential Live life Your way on talk radio dot n Y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com dafs. Do you like comic books and movies? Howbout TV and pop culture. Then you’ve come to the right place. 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