Tag Archives: inclusivity

Nonprofit Radio for May 10, 2021: Online Meetings For All & Online Accessibility Beyond Meetings

My Guests:

Cindy Leonard & John Kenyon: Online Meetings For All

Cindy Leonard and John Kenyon continue our 21NTC coverage, with strategies and tips to make your virtual meetings accessible and inclusive. They’re with Cindy Leonard Consulting and he’s with John Kenyon Consulting.





Martin Cacace: Online Accessibility Beyond Meetings

We identify potential issues, help you prioritize what to fix and pick out the low-hanging fruit. My guest is Martin Cacace at Bound State Software and this is also from 21NTC.



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[00:02:05.94] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer with a vascular necrosis if you killed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Online meetings for all. Cindy Leonard and John Kenyon continue our 21 NTC coverage with strategies and tips to make your virtual meetings accessible and inclusive there with Cindy Leonard consulting and he’s with john Kenyon consulting, both happily named and online accessibility. Beyond meetings. We identify potential issues, help you prioritize what to fix and pick out the low hanging fruit. My guest is Martin Kosei at bound state software and this is also from 21 NTCC on tony state too. It’s vacation planning time. We’re sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Here is online meetings for all. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc, you know what that is. The 2021 nonprofit technology conference conferences virtual this year Were sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C O. My guests now are Cindy Leonard and john Kenyon. Cindy is Ceo at Cindy Leonard consulting and john is principal at john Kenyon consulting. They both have aptly named companies. Welcome Welcome Cindy welcome john

[00:02:09.64] spk_2:
thank you. Thanks Tony, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having us.

[00:02:54.34] spk_1:
Pleasure to have each of you. Your session is intentional. Facilitation choices, creating online meetings for all to enjoy. I put the emphasis on all, but I think we’ll, we’ll explore, explore why we want to do that. So Uh, Cindy, let’s start with you. What, what obviously is very timely but, and, and online meetings we expect to continue right. I mean these are not going to die once the once 90 of the folks or you’ve either been vaccinated or had the coronavirus or whatever. Online meetings are not going away. What just generally, what could we be doing better? It seems like it seems like a lot of mediocrity.

[00:04:01.54] spk_2:
A lot of mediocrity. That’s an interesting. That’s an interesting way to put it. Yeah. So the part of this session, the idea was that, you know, now that everybody has been doing zoom and online meetings for about a year now, you know, we’ve all gotten used to the technological parts. Um, we felt like it was time to do a session that goes beyond that somebody at the Ntc, I forget the breakout session. Um, but they said that technology is a mirror. So when you hold it up to your nonprofit, it reveals all the broken processes and broken tools. And I thought that was very apt. And when you think about that regarding online meetings, you know, everything in terms of inequity, inaccessibility, um, lack of diversity, power dynamics tend to be magnified, you know, where those things existed in person meetings. The technology adds an extra layer of complication. That makes things more inaccessible, more inequitable unless you do specific things to counteract that. And so that’s what this session was largely about.

[00:04:12.74] spk_1:
John you want to add to the Cindy’s introduction at all?

[00:04:39.44] spk_3:
Sure. That like Cindy said, you know, we really tried to share what our vision is for inclusive meetings. And so that means that all folks can contribute equally if they desire and that it’s okay not to using things like you would in person like a talking piece to go around and make sure everyone is able to engage meaningfully and to share. And that it’s okay if if they don’t want to. But digitally we just list people’s name in the chat and have everyone go through so we make sure we don’t miss anyone.

[00:05:00.24] spk_1:
Mm Okay. Okay. Uh so how can we be more intentional as we’re setting up a meeting? Is that a is that is that a place to start? Can we like sort of maybe take this chronologically through uh through a meeting? The pre meeting? The during the meeting and then the post meeting? Is that by doing it justice, if we do it that way?

[00:05:38.94] spk_2:
Yeah, we actually um we split we split our section up into three main sections. One was about inclusion and Power Dynamics. Another section was accessibility techniques, how to before during and after with those and experiential and reflective techniques. So we actually demonstrated a variety of interactive activities that could be used to engage your as a facilitator to engage the audience. So those were the three main sections.

[00:05:45.34] spk_1:
Okay. Is it okay if we uh well I don’t, I don’t want to mess up your

[00:05:50.34] spk_2:
no, you’re fine,

[00:05:52.27] spk_1:
john can we do it? Is that

[00:06:06.04] spk_2:
okay? I think so, yeah, john and Griffin, Griffin Castillo, um who’s not with us today? Uh Griffin and john were covering the power dynamics portion of this. So I think starting there is probably a good idea to john.

[00:06:10.74] spk_3:
Sure. So yeah, tony if it’s okay, I’m going to talk about some aspects of inclusion and then I’ll start to do that. I’ll talk about before during and after a meeting.

[00:06:18.64] spk_1:
Okay, Thank you. Great.

[00:06:20.29] spk_0:
All right.

[00:07:00.64] spk_3:
So some of the aspects of inclusion that we want to make sure people are aware of are the some of the advantages that we bring to our meetings online from having the latest technology to having older technology or only phones and even recognizing folks have no internet access in some areas. Understanding there’s advantages when it comes to digital literacy with computers or software, even having a dedicated space to participate. Our co presenter, Griffin Castillo, is the racial equity ambassador for the Oakland School system and so many students are sharing space with other family members. Understanding some people can respond quickly versus those who are reflective thinkers. So providing different modes for people to share as well as the very common advantages of having expertise, seniority or rank or relational privilege. So you want to be aware of those aspects and then there are specific things you can do before, during and after your meetings to make sure that you’re creating an inclusive and accessible meeting.

[00:08:26.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Well, I mean I gotta, I gotta start with the obvious. You know, I’m asking neophyte questions. You, you all spend, I’ve spent years thinking about these things and I’m coming at it quite a bit newer, uh, for folks who don’t have the technology that’s needed. How do we include them in a meeting that we’re planning online? That has to be online by because of the pandemic, by the way. If you hear any background noise, I’m having some renovations done. So maybe you’re banging. Yeah, there’s a little hammering, buying little drilling going on. So, uh, that’s, that’s, that’s your lackluster host with talk about a non private. I mean, I guess, uh, they’re much, there are much worse environments to have to be a party to a meeting in, but I’m in a lesser one than I than I would like. But that’s what, that that’s what that is, listeners. You’re, you’re hearing my stairs being renovated. Okay. So what about folks who don’t have any, they don’t even access, They don’t have digital access. How do we accommodate them? How have we accommodated them and how can we going forward in online meetings?

[00:09:10.84] spk_3:
Sure. So two of the ways we talked about were make sure that you’re providing offline readable versions of any documents or presentations for those who can’t see them live or can’t see them online but may be able to download them as well as documenting your notes and providing recordings, either video or audio to allow folks to review materials, digest them at their own pace. And that also supports accessibility, which are some of the pieces that Cindy talked about. Okay.

[00:09:21.84] spk_1:
It still seems like, I don’t know. It still seems insurmountable though if you’re, if you’re giving them a recording, but I mean if they don’t have internet access, how can you give them the recording?

[00:09:44.34] spk_3:
Sure. So the example I use, I often work with native american people and for example sometimes they need to drive a half hour in order to get a signal on their phone. Or they could go to a library on the reservation or wherever they are. So it is possible for them to get access. It just may not be live and it just may not be high speed. So as long as you’re providing those materials and there is a way for them to get them and put them on their devices or print them out if needed. That helps.

[00:10:16.44] spk_1:
So as you’re planning meetings you need to be aware that there may be folks that are going to raise their hand and say I can’t attend the zoom meeting at one o’clock tomorrow. You know, I don’t have that kind of access or I don’t have the, you mentioned even the privacy, uh, maybe they have online access, but they don’t have a private space to to listen and, and yeah, to listen and participate.

[00:11:20.14] spk_3:
Sure. Yeah. So I’ll talk about some of the things um, that that I covered and then I’m going to pass it to Cindy because she’s got some great ideas and when it comes to accessibility for people of all abilities. So one of the things tony that like you said before the meeting, it’s really important to discuss the issues that I mentioned about, you know, advantages and and our vision um with those with privilege to get by in so that they understand we want to allow all voices to be heard and that we think about ways to include everyone when we’re planning for meetings, Um that we, you know, make sure that that is part of our planning. That we ask attendees about accommodation needs up front during registration and that we have a plan to accommodate people with different abilities so that you know, we already know somebody who can do american sign language interpretation. We already know someone who can live caption. Uh, the presentation that we’re giving. Um, and I know for example, other pieces that that Cindy helped us worked on was if you have somebody who is sight impaired or blind, um reading the description of any visuals that you have. And Cindy was also great because she added something called all text that I’ll let her talk about two images. Cindy talk about that for us.

[00:11:47.04] spk_1:
Let them uh, we’re talking about inclusion. Accessibility. Cindy, Cindy is them Cindy. Thank you. I just you know, it’s all done in politely but you know, we got to be respectful. Right? It’s

[00:11:56.73] spk_2:
all right. Yeah. Absolutely. And I don’t walk if somebody says she her I don’t I don’t freak out. Okay. I do identify this non binary.

[00:12:05.14] spk_1:
Do the better you do the best we can. All right.

[00:12:07.24] spk_2:
Yeah. So yeah. One of the

[00:12:09.54] spk_1:
we’ll never make that mistake again. I assure you that.

[00:14:21.74] spk_2:
Okay. Um So yeah, so um one of the things that we did uh did we did do as an accessibility technique during the meeting and we probably should be doing this for radio interviews as well. One would think whenever we did our introductions uh for example, I said I’m Cindy Leonard from local velocity learned consulting. And I am a white white person with long straight brown hair and green glasses and today I have on a plaid sweater and I’m sitting with a yellow blank yellow wall background behind me and the idea of describing yourself um for people who aren’t either are excited or how vision impairment, but there’s also people that, you know, if you’ve ever tried to connect to a zoom meeting on your phone, the video isn’t always great or maybe you’re not in a place where you can watch the video, but you’re listening to it. Maybe you’re commuting or in your car. Um, so having that visual described is really important, not just for people with vision impairments, but for everyone, you know, and I talked a little bit during my piece about universal design, you know, and so one of the great examples of universal design design that is good for everyone helps people with disabilities. That is also good for morgan. What more of an audience is the concept of curb cuts Now, this is a low tech example, but the curb cut that, that little cut out at the corner of a sidewalk, you know, it’s, it’s great for people with using a wheelchair. It’s great for people using on a cane, you know, walking that have blindness. But insults are great for women and strong women with babies in strollers. It’s great for delivery persons. It’s great for older people who tend to trip on, you know, as we age, we tend to trip more. Um, so the idea is to make your power point and your meeting and your handouts more accessible and it helps everyone, not just people with disabilities.

[00:14:38.64] spk_1:
I’ve had guests from previous ntc’s make that point often. Uh Usually I think in the, in the context of a web, web, web design, uh it benefits benefits everyone. It reduces, you know, if if you’re using the right contrast levels, it reduces eyestrain for for everybody uh etcetera

[00:16:22.34] spk_2:
etcetera. Alright. Yeah, it really does overlap. I’ve been one of my, one of my consulting practice pieces is web website development, which I’ve been doing for about 20 years and there is a lot of overlap. A lot of the things that I’m saying about your power point back also applies to your website. So for example, the alternative text alternative text is what is red in lieu of the file name of a photo. So if I’m, let’s say I am a person who is blind and I’m using a screen reader software that is reading the web page to me or reading the power point debt to me when it gets to the images. If it doesn’t have alternative text which is descriptive text that you deliberately added to the image, it will read the file name of the image that’s been inserted or that’s uploaded. And that means, you know, it’ll read like, like image, it will say like I M G 678 jpeg. And that means nothing to anyone. So the idea is to describe the images in the alternative tax, so that, you know, whenever whenever I’m trying to figure out how to do that, when I’m either doing a website or a power point is I like to pretend that I’m sitting here in my office with somebody who has vision impairment and that I’m trying to, you know, like, here’s a picture, I’m trying to explain to them what is on the picture. So it’s helpful to me to imagine a person beside me that I’m trying to describe something to.

[00:16:47.54] spk_1:
Mhm john how about um if we transition um we’re a little bit all all encompassing, but uh that’s okay, that’s fine. As long as folks get the information, it doesn’t really matter what, what format it comes in or what, what, what theme we use. But like is there anything you can say specific to during, during a meeting that we haven’t talked about yet?

[00:16:50.64] spk_2:
The, the,

[00:16:52.14] spk_1:
that we need to

[00:18:14.44] spk_3:
Sure. So some of the things that we did in our session and that I try to do consistently is when I introduce myself as you mentioned earlier, using uh sharing that. I’m john Kenyon and my pronouns are he and him just as Cindy’s pronouns, are they in them and I’m not enforcing that or asking everyone to, to say that, but it just helps people with different gender identities feel included. Something else I do is when I introduced myself, I say that I’m coming to you from the occupied lands of the native coast, miwok people and that I send my respects to them and their leaders past, present and emerging again to just recognize that the land on which I am currently living was not originally my land and again helps people who are native people feel included. And that’s a practice I actually learned from my Australian colleagues because they are trying to be respectful of the Aborigines, the native Australian people. I’d also say that what we try to do is have real clear guidelines for participants. Something excellent that one of our session participants shared was doing, including things such as suspending judgment, suspending guilt, suspending assumptions and embracing awareness toward understanding, embracing leaning into discomfort. If you don’t feel comfortable with the topic or sharing, being able to lean into that,

[00:18:27.14] spk_1:
lean into meaning, express it,

[00:18:29.29] spk_3:
that’s right. Being in

[00:18:31.08] spk_1:
a forum where you can you can say something

[00:18:45.24] spk_3:
right and being able to say so, you know, tony you’re you’re our boss and you’re handling this meeting and you’re not letting any of, you know, the emerging leaders of the younger folks speak and you know, finding respectful and positive ways to bring that out. So for example, just to name that, to say, you’re not letting other folks speak, why is that? I’m not judging you, I’m not shaking my finger at you, but that we’re naming it,

[00:19:02.74] spk_1:
bring out the power dynamics

[00:19:23.54] spk_2:
and some accessibility related things that we do during a meeting are they’re actually pretty intuitive once, once you hear them, but if you don’t deliberately think about them, you know that you can miss things. But for example, use plain language, you know, every industry has a lot of jargon and you cannot guarantee everybody knows the jargon.

[00:19:25.89] spk_1:
non profit radio we have drug in jail

[00:19:28.50] spk_2:
in jail. I like it. I’m not hesitant to put people in like a

[00:19:32.48] spk_1:

[00:19:33.59] spk_2:
acronyms are another big thing in our second, everybody loves their, you know, so don’t say in 10 say the nonprofit technology network first, you know, okay, well,

[00:20:27.14] spk_1:
and then they don’t want to be the nonprofit technology network anymore. They’re like, I was thinking maybe he said that, but I’ve been admonished by the CEO maybe I said and 10 earlier, but example award that the N 10 Ceo is is a regular contributor, a technology contributor to my show, she’s admonished me to stop saying non profit Technology Network. So it comes from that comes to the top, but absolutely acronyms, you know, fundraising is full of them. I do plan giving and there’s all kinds of acronyms around trusts and just the, the, the assumption that everybody knows what you’re talking about. I mean I I shoot my hand up and say, what is that? You know, I’m right, right self, I’ve been doing it all my life, so it’s, you know, Uh, so I don’t mind people, but if one person doesn’t understand it’s probably 50 or don’t.

[00:21:11.84] spk_2:
Exactly. Another another point, another point is to give sufficient time a little more than you think you need to for people getting into breakout rooms on on the online software, forgetting to any third party exercises, responding in the chat box, any interactive activities. Not everybody is a fast clicker. You know, like I’m a power user. I guess you could say I’m on a laptop or a computer, so I’m really fast on the clicking, but not everybody is like that. People need time. Some people need more time to find what they’re supposed to be doing or where they’re supposed to be calling. So you want to be careful about that as well? Yeah.

[00:21:30.24] spk_1:
All right. Mm. Um, how about after after the meeting follow up, john you had mentioned. Uh, I think it was you john readable documents. Uh, what else, what else should we be doing and follow up to be sensitive to

[00:21:52.34] spk_3:
Sure. So just to reiterate, like I said, making sure that you have all your documents and notes and things like that that you can share with people so they can download them and read them off line or print them out. Something else that was suggested in our session. And that we try to do is post meeting surveys and ask, how did we do with inclusion? How did we do with accessibility if you’re an emerging leader? Did you feel centered? Did you feel excluded or included? Did we give everyone time and space to participate whether they’re able to share immediately or There are more reflective thinkers, like many of us are

[00:22:10.84] spk_1:
Cindy, anything you want to add there?

[00:22:13.57] spk_2:
No, not at all. But that’s great, john that was a great summary. I would like to send a shout out to our, we mentioned Griffin Castillo, one of our co

[00:22:22.66] spk_1:
presenter. I was gonna, I was gonna put a moratorium on mentioning him because he didn’t join us for the interview here.

[00:22:58.84] spk_2:
No. And now so are other co presenter his name, I don’t think we’ve mentioned yet is Jean Allen and Jeanne Allen is she’s, she’s a dual role. She’s with a nonprofit, she’s on the board of a nonprofit in north Carolina with his name, which name of which I cannot remember. Um but she’s also uh independent nonprofit consultant herself. She’s been at it for many years. Very smart lady. She ran she talked about all of the interactive how exercises how to include more engagement and your breakout session to make it more interesting or in your in your online meeting.

[00:23:12.64] spk_1:
Is there anything from that that you can you can share as well as you would have. But I mean for engagement possibilities in online Yeah, what can you reveal?

[00:23:53.04] spk_2:
Yeah, it was something as simple to an exercise. She called the chatter fall exercise chatter fall like a waterfall. Um And we put a put a question on the screen that says an idea emerging for me is why. And she had them all not hit send but deployed at their answers with the reflections in the comments box of chat box. And then she had them all had sent at the same time and it was just this beautiful cascade of all kinds of thoughts and comments all coming out at once. And there was a lot of, there were a lot of unifying ideas and themes emerged from that. And then she also showed us a tour

[00:23:59.21] spk_1:
which, hold on, tell me again, what was the lead into that? What was the statement that folks were supposed to fill in the blank? What we asked

[00:24:13.34] spk_2:
them to tell us an idea emerging for me, meaning emerging from the sessions of our is. And then they were supposed to finish

[00:24:18.85] spk_1:
Thank you.

[00:24:56.44] spk_2:
Yeah, it could be any question. Of course. Of course, Yeah. Um and Jeanne also did a live example of a google jamma board. So jam, like, like let’s Jam, you know? Um and it’s a really, it’s almost like an inner john you can help me with the description on this. It’s almost like a, like an interactive, multi user whiteboard. It reminds me of a smart board, did you have in a classroom or a meeting room? Except that everybody accesses it at the same time. And you could add post it notes and and print on it and scribble on it. It’s really eat right. The double suite.

[00:25:15.84] spk_3:
That’s that’s right. Yeah. It’s almost as if, as we often do an offline meetings, you have a wall where people are putting up post its and people can put up post its and write anything they want on them. We were able even showed folks how we were able to upload images and pictures. So it’s, as Cindy said, this nice interactive place where people can share, you could even do something like here’s a question. Do you agree or not? And put your posted five is totally agree. One is, I don’t agree at all. So you get a spectrum of answers and see where people lie on the answer to the question. It’s not just thumbs up or thumbs down.

[00:25:42.14] spk_1:
This is called a google jam board jam board. And how does it relate to using zoom for meetings? Is it a is it like a screen share? Someone shares their screen and they show their jam board and then everybody, everybody can participate how zoom

[00:26:01.74] spk_2:
meeting you give them a link and you send them off to the tool, they stay in zoom, they stay in the room so they keep zoom active, but you’re sending them to their browser and it opens in a browser tab.

[00:26:16.84] spk_1:
Okay. So everybody’s doing it independently along alongside zoom. Okay. All right. We have just a couple minutes left. Anything that we haven’t talked about that either of you want to bring up in a closing a couple minutes.

[00:26:28.64] spk_3:
Uh huh. Sure. So I think for my closing, I would just share a participant quote from our session which which really resonated with me and they said, even if I’m a participant rather than a leader of a group, I can still practice and demonstrate accessible and inclusive practices by describing visuals, Making sure I engage people in the chat, sharing my pronouns, making sure I provide room for everyone to share,

[00:26:49.34] spk_1:
john why don’t you describe your background? Let’s try to put this into practice and I’ll do it in my clothes, Go ahead or describe yourself on your background.

[00:27:15.94] spk_3:
Great. So I’m john I’m a white male, I’ve got gray hair and a little bit of a beard. I’m sitting in a room that has white walls. I’ve got a kind of a delft blue curtain behind me and some flowers, the flowers are called veronica. Um and so yeah, that’s and I’m wearing a dark blue shirt.

[00:27:44.44] spk_1:
I’m Tony, I have a red t shirt on my hair is mostly white, a little smattering of dark remaining. But, but it’s, it’s stunning and dashing nonetheless, even though it’s 90% white uh, you know, you’re supposed to not supposed to editorialize right, supposed to keep it factual. I have stunning, stunning, boring background of my hp printer and uh pretty much white walls behind uh in a red t shirt and I wear glasses. I wear glasses.

[00:27:48.84] spk_2:
Thanks. That was excellent. Uh huh.

[00:27:52.54] spk_1:
Yeah, they are Cindy Leonard. Ceo, Cindy Leonard consulting and john Kenyon principal john Kenyon consulting thanks to each of you for sharing. Thank you. Cindy. Thank you john,

[00:28:03.84] spk_2:
thank you for having us. Real

[00:28:05.84] spk_3:
pleasure. Thank you.

[00:31:44.24] spk_1:
Thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Let’s talk a little bit more detail about them. The ambitious biden agenda released a couple of weeks ago. Is there anything in there that impacts your work touches on what you do at all? Anything you’d like to be heard on may be quoted on be a trusted source about you can improve your chances of getting an op ed published or being a source or getting quoted working with turn to because they have the relationships to make these things happen for you so so much better than you or someone in your office cold calling a journalist or blogger whoever it is that you’re trying to reach that doesn’t know you, you want somebody who’s got the relationships you want to turn to because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony’s take two. It’s time to plan your summer time off. Yes, I uh It’s finger wagging time. No camera here. But you got to take care of yourself folks. Please. You need to take care of yourself this summer. What a what a 18 months it’s been. Maybe last summer was a blur. Certainly you couldn’t go anywhere. And I hope you didn’t because it wasn’t safe. It’s changed. You know that master of the obvious. So plan your summer. Get it. Let’s get the plans going. Get the reservations made, book the week book the two weeks. You’ve got to block it and then preserve it, preserve it for yourself. Honor it. It can’t be interrupted. You got to set boundaries set that time for yourself and make boundaries around it. Honor that time. No, I’m sorry you can’t get together then. No, I won’t be able to do that meeting. No, now now that that weekend is not good. Now that week isn’t good either. You gotta make time for yourself and preserve it. Please yourself. Your family. If you have a family, get that time away this summer, you need it, you deserve it. You want to take care of others. Whether it’s on the professional side, those folks you take care of or it’s on the family side, you want to take care of your family. You’ve got to take care of yourself, please this summer, especially of all of all summers since last summer was such a bad bust. Set the time aside. Honor it. No encroachments, do it for yourself, do it for those who you take care of. That is Tony’s take two. We have boo koo but loads more time for nonprofit radio here is online accessibility beyond meetings. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC the 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o. With me now is martin caucus a president of bound state Software martin. Welcome to nonprofit radio’s coverage of 21 ntc.

[00:31:53.94] spk_0:
Hi Tony, thanks for having me

[00:32:05.44] spk_1:
a pleasure, absolute pleasure. Your session was 10 common accessibility issues and how to fix them. I would like to start at the basic ground level. Let’s just define what accessibility is before we identify the issues.

[00:33:21.64] spk_0:
Yeah. So I think you can define accessibility as making well in this case like your websites, uh, making it accessible to everyone and what that means is that there’s four different levels. So whether they’re perceivable, which means that people can like actually see what’s going on operable, which means I can actually not like use your website without um special requirements. So if you for example a mouse or something like that, they might not be able to use that um understandable. So that means that they want to be able to you want to be able to make sure that people when they go to your website or accessing some content that they can understand what’s going on. It’s not confusing and robust. It means that it’s just a future proof and it can be used across various types of like uh technology. So like web browsers or um screen readers and stuff like that. So it kind of encompasses all that is making it is making your website be accessible to to everyone apart from if they have um impairments or anything like that, disabilities.

[00:33:37.24] spk_1:
We know what the penetration rate is among nonprofit websites. If we use that definition of accessibility. Um sorry,

[00:33:37.91] spk_0:
can you say that again?

[00:33:38.78] spk_1:
Do we know what the penetration rate is? How common are accessible websites in nonprofits using your definition?

[00:34:20.64] spk_0:
Uh, to be, I don’t have a specific number per se, but from just from my research and from browsing different types of websites. non profit websites. It’s not it’s not too common, like it’s something that I think it’s becoming more uh top of mine, but like I see it in proposals or RFP s and stuff like that more and more and more and more often, especially if the organization has like some government funding and the requirements come from that, but it’s not something that’s um commonly found. So

[00:34:32.64] spk_1:
there’s a lot of room for improvement. Yeah, I think so. Okay. Okay. Um can you help us spot potential problems on our own website? Yeah. Good. Sure.

[00:35:04.24] spk_0:
Um Yeah so that’s kind of what uh my talk with and at the conference and I just wanted to give people some some tools and like some understanding of what’s going on their website. So they can they could take them take them home and start working on it and see you know, how can we make our web sites more accessible? It might not be like fully accessible in terms of the various levels but at least getting started. So at the most basic level. So somebody has used enough system technology. Can you can use your website that goes a long way. So. Yeah,

[00:35:14.44] spk_1:
well we’re not gonna be able to do everything overnight. It’s not gonna be like flipping a switch but no we can approach this incrementally and make it more make our site more accessible.

[00:36:00.13] spk_0:
Yeah, exactly. I think that’s the right approach. So I think, to begin with, I wanted to like differentiate between a couple of different issues. So like sometimes these issues are caused by their technical issues, so it might be caused by the templates or in quotation marks, the code. Um, so you might need a developer, uh, to, to help you with it. And other ones are more like low hanging fruit. I think it’s just like things that are related to content. So a lot of the nonprofits use like content management systems to up their websites to create blogs and content. So some of this stuff can be like fixed through just having an understanding of, okay, what are the guidelines that should follow, um, to create more accessible content?

[00:36:15.33] spk_1:
Okay, yeah, So let’s let’s let’s focus on the low hanging fruit, the stuff we can do on our own because our listeners are small and midsize shops. So, you know, they may very well not have an internal developer and hiring an external developer maybe outside their means. So let’s start the stuff we can we can do on our own. Yeah, let’s do that thing. Yeah.

[00:37:06.53] spk_0:
So the first one is it’s pretty basic, but it’s um, it’s page title. So page titles are very important for for orientation. It’s the first thing, like for example, screen reader reads when you’re like when you line on a new page, it’s a good way to differentiate and move between pages and move between pages. So, um, you want to make sure that page titles are unique and they provide um enough information to know what that page is about. Um, another tip that you want to be looking for is that you want to make sure that the most unique and most relevant information comes first. So rather than putting like your organization name first, you want to put it at the end and make sure like whatever the pages about it comes up at the beginning. And this is also some of these practices are also like best practices for the web, but also for like a Ceo and things like that.

[00:37:18.53] spk_1:
Can you explain why does the organization name go at the bottom? Why is that lower?

[00:37:31.73] spk_0:
Because you want to make sure that whatever is the most important part, the most relevant to that page Comes 1st and then your organization comes

[00:37:34.17] spk_1:
after they already know they’re on your organization site. So

[00:37:53.03] spk_0:
yeah. So perhaps if you’re on the home page, you wouldn’t follow that. Like maybe like depends how your SEO strategy is. But if you’re on the about page or or blog article, you want to make sure that the title is at the beginning of the title of the blog or the title of your about page, because that’s kind of what that person is looking for, otherwise it can it can be distracting. Okay,

[00:37:58.53] spk_1:
okay. What else? What

[00:39:35.12] spk_0:
another thing is just headings like this is again pretty basic things, but you want to make sure that when you’re correct, craft and content. Um and a lot of the usability guidelines go hand in hand with like uh just sorry, the accessibility guidelines go hand in hand with usability. Um So when you’re making like, let’s say creating content for the web, you want to make sure that it’s split up and you’re using headings appropriately, so the continent’s more digestible, so it’s easier to understand, but it um and then also if you’re using these headings, you want to make sure that they follow a hierarchy. So typically pages will start with heading one, which is the largest heading. That will be the page title. And as you work down the page, you want to make sure that that hierarchy is maintained. So then that would follow by an H two tag, which again, if you’re using a content management system, you would be able to just select the H two tag is similar to like award uh like a more document and things like that. Um And then a little bit more technical is you want to make sure that when you when you’re selecting these headings that they actually look like headings and on the code side, you want to make sure that there for like their semantically um tagged as heading. So what that means is like in the actual page code is there’s like a little tag, this is H one H two H three, so it needs to be created that way because they’re used as anchors for again, for screen, right? Just to to be able to understand what’s going on. Some people that sounds like they’re sections,

[00:39:39.62] spk_1:
that sounds like it’s just a matter of highlighting the code. Sorry, highlighting the text and tagging it as H one H two H three. Yeah,

[00:39:53.72] spk_0:
exactly. And there’s little tools that you could use, like you don’t have to know how to look at the code. Like there’s plenty of um

[00:39:55.62] spk_1:
yeah, we’re trying to result there’s we’re trying to avoid the code for for right now. Yeah, you can do at our desk if we’re not a developer.

[00:40:02.85] spk_0:
Yeah, you could do this like um as long as you, if you’re using WordPress, you can just select the right appropriate tag and if the theme or or the template you’re using is properly done, then you shouldn’t have any issue.

[00:40:16.41] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Other low hanging fruit, I’m sure you’ve got a bunch of this bunch of these. Yeah.

[00:41:24.11] spk_0:
Yeah. So another one is uh your link, text a lot of the times, like people will put in something like for more information about my organization click here now um you you want to make sure that you’re when you’re creating links that people understand, like where they’re going, like where that link is taking them and so you want to be able to when you’re creating these links, you want to create, create context rich links. Um And the reason for that is because some some assistive technologies that allowed them to view all the links in one page, just so you land on a page, see all the lengths and they’re listed in order. So say that you have a lot of click here’s like they don’t really make sense out of context, so it doesn’t really help them, it’s confusing. So rather than doing something like that, you want to make sure that the the lengths make sense out of context. So you want to say, learn more about my organization, that’s the entire link. So when somebody is scanning through all the links, it makes sense to them.

[00:41:25.41] spk_1:
All right. So it’s a matter of which words are linked. Yeah,

[00:41:29.37] spk_0:
exactly. And

[00:41:30.00] spk_1:
linking the word here here here.

[00:41:42.41] spk_0:
Exactly, Yeah. And and the same thing goes with buttons, for example, you don’t want to have like buttons that are just generic like submit. You want to make sure that they’re descriptive. So, again, this goes hand in hand with usability. So you want to make sure that the button says for example if it’s a newsletter, subscribe to newsletter so they know what the action they’re taking.

[00:41:58.21] spk_1:
I see. All right. That that explains something that I’ve wondered about why some people have or some I see mostly in journalism too. And now I’m thinking about it you know like five or six words will be highlighted as the link. One of them.

[00:42:27.20] spk_0:
Yeah. And it’s also it’s also but yeah. Okay. And it’s also better for S. C. 02 because you’re that’s kind of uh in essence like google crawls your site through a boat. So and it’s very similar to a screen reader. Read it. So they would they look at the links and it’s like okay, this link is this. Um And then you would you answer that phrase and then that’s how it starts to understand what’s going on on your website and where web pages to navigate to. Yeah.

[00:42:38.70] spk_1:
Rich links. All right. Give us more. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:09.30] spk_0:
Yeah. Another one is um text alternatives. I’m sure everyone well not everyone, but this is more familiar. Like all text is the text alternative description of an image. So of course, if you’re if you can’t see and using a screen reader, you can’t see what the image is about. Uh So you can you can provide a description for the image um about what that image is about or the or why that that image is there. So what’s the function? Um If it’s just like a decorative image, you don’t you don’t need to put anything, but if it serves a purpose, it’s important to have that their

[00:43:18.98] spk_1:

[00:43:26.30] spk_0:
So typically when your uploaded a new image on your content management system, you have the option that they will be like a little descriptor field even say I’ll text and then you can just put it in there.

[00:43:33.60] spk_1:
All text. Yeah.

[00:43:55.50] spk_0:
Yeah. It’s it’s it’s very common. It’s just a lot of times you’re like uploading a lot of images and going through like doing a million things. So it’s one of the things that’s easy to miss and it can be hard to also to think about what uh huh what, what to put in there. So I think, yeah,

[00:43:57.40] spk_1:
I guess otherwise the person, the screen reader is just going to see like a file name.

[00:44:02.49] spk_0:
Yeah, exactly.

[00:44:03.68] spk_1:
Yeah. Image seven dot jpeg. Which is Yeah.

[00:44:32.29] spk_0:
Yeah. Or maybe a default value that the program are put in there. Might say default. Yeah. It’s not great. Yeah. And then in the same and lines with the, with the links that we talked about before, a lot of times you use images as links. So you want to make sure that in the all text, your including the destination, if you’re using an image for a link, making sure, okay, where is this link taking me? It’s it’s kind of tied into what we talked about before,

[00:44:40.09] spk_1:
yep. Okay. But the content, content and links. Okay. Others uh yeah.

[00:45:26.89] spk_0:
uh number five would be multimedia like so a podcast for example, um Not available like two people with with hard of hearing or death, um, visuals and videos are not able to people who are blind. So you want to, you want to provide a way to to help these people. Um not only that, it’s just people without, with without disabilities were out, I don’t know, taking the train or something, you want to watch a video, but you don’t want the sound to be on having captions. Um it’s very useful. Um, if you’re learning a new language, like I learn english like having captions, it’s very useful to understand what’s going on. So there’s many uses of why multimedia should have um, should provide an alternative to to consume that. So like a transcript

[00:45:31.14] spk_1:
transcripts, podcasts,

[00:46:42.88] spk_0:
Yeah, a transcript for podcast, for audio and visual content maybe captions. I mean they can be quite elaborate elaborate to to create, but uh, it’s it’s one of the requirements for or guidelines for accessibility. Um, I think these next two are the ones that I talked about before, but um, and they kind of go hand in hand. One is simple content. Like a lot of what I see a lot is just like people just dumping information and information on their websites. And I think it’s important, especially with, for people with cognitive disabilities are really anyone if you’re landing on a page and it’s just like blocks attacks that you have to scan through and trying to understand what’s going on. Like it’s not very usable and again it’s not accessible. So you want to make sure when you’re creating content, you really think about what message you’re trying to convey and you you formatted in a way that’s simple and use a simple language. So Try to aim for an 8th grade level and there’s some tools there that kind of help you with that and help you edit your content so it’s more digestible.

[00:46:46.16] spk_1:
Okay. 8th grade, I’m wondering if I’ve even heard lower than that. Like sixth grade? I’m not sure.

[00:46:59.68] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m not sure. I think I think there is I use a tool called Hemingway editor and I think that one even goes down even further. But yeah, I think if you get to eighth grade and it gives you a check mark.

[00:47:04.17] spk_1:
Okay. Okay Hemingway is that a free resource that listeners can use?

[00:47:08.29] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just go I think it’s just if you google Hemingway editor, it’s just like a free tool you can use online.

[00:47:18.78] spk_1:
Okay. That’s cool. Thank you. I like I like resources. All right. And you said something related to that?

[00:49:58.87] spk_0:
Yeah, So the same same thing. It’s uh your your layout. We talked about the heading simple content. All go hand in hand layout in terms of like how you’re structuring your page, you want to make sure it’s just simple, straightforward. Um I’m not going to go into more than this because it goes into more like design and things that you really can, you can really change without the help of maybe a designer or developer. So I won’t touch them more on that. But the next one I will touch on is contrast ratio and this is another one that’s quite popular when you think of accessibility, like okay, like it needs to be like the contrast needs to be enough so people can can read what’s the tax? Um Right, so one of the things you want to use is there’s plenty of tools out there if you if you just google contrast checker. Um I think one I have here in front of the web, I am dot org and it’s contrast checker. That’s I think the one I use most of the time. Um you just put in two colours and there’s just like it spits out to two different results, whether it passes or not. Um So that that’s pretty straightforward. It falls within like the template sort of but uh now more and more like with the CMS, you can you can change anything right? Like you can change the colour depending on the flexibility of the template. Um, A big one is images, so like a lot of nonprofits like to use images, um because obviously it’s an easier way to like resonate with your audience. Like you can, you get a better feel of what what they’re about. But the problem is that they like, it’s common to overlay text over there and now you’re giving your staff the ability to upload new images and then change the text. Um and then that becomes really tricky if, if it’s not a nice theme or if the image is not great. Um Now you’re having contrast issues. So like, for example, having like simple overlays, it’s like making sure your image is dark enough, so there’s some contrast um goes a long way, There’s other tips for in terms of design that you can do to overcome that but um like putting like a little background on on the actual text so it stands out more. Um But yeah, I think it’s one of the tips, let’s just be careful and the images you’re picking, making sure there’s enough contrast or and if it’s not adding some sort, if you if you have the skills just adding a bit of like a darker um rectangle overtop, like through whatever image processing software that you use

[00:50:31.26] spk_1:
and you can check this with which the well by the way, I want to just make sure everybody knows CMS is your content management system, just in case everybody questioning that, I’m not gonna put martin in jargon jail because I think CMS is pretty, pretty widely known, but if you get if you get to giardini martin then my jargon jail. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. But I’m not putting you in there for CMS. I think that’s pretty, it is widely known but just just in case there’s any listeners who don’t know CMS is your content management system and stunning. Absolutely. But be careful because you’ve transgressed, I

[00:50:34.59] spk_0:
don’t know when I go to jail, I don’t have a jail free card. So Yes, that’s right.

[00:50:40.76] spk_1:
Well I I allow um uh parole is not too hard to get.

[00:50:42.66] spk_0:
Okay. That’s good. Good to hear.

[00:50:44.42] spk_1:
What’s the contrast checker again that resource that folks can use.

[00:50:56.06] spk_0:
So it’s web uh it’s web A. I am dot org. Okay. Um and then if you go to the website it’s just under the resources as contrast checker. Yeah.

[00:51:02.36] spk_1:
Okay. And you can just google contrast checker as well.

[00:51:04.73] spk_0:
Yeah, there’s there’s probably like more than 20 different tools but

[00:51:10.96] spk_1:
martin picasa recommended one is web A I. M.

[00:51:14.66] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. They have a few other tools. That’s the one that’s

[00:51:17.37] spk_1:
it’s got the blessing. It’s got the yeah, it’s a blessing. All right.

[00:51:21.38] spk_0:
Sure. Let’s go with that. All right.

[00:51:23.36] spk_1:
So does that does that exhaust the ones that folks can do on their own without a developer? Let’s

[00:52:23.35] spk_0:
see. I think the last one is actually um it’s not really an issue but something that’s nice to have is an accessibility statement. And during my uh talk, a couple of people like this um so they’re an excessively statement is just it’s an important it’s kind of think about it like a privacy statement. But for accessibility it shows your users that you you kind of care about accessibility and about them provide some information about the accessibility of the content. What steps are you taking to to do um to make your website accessible? And then you can provide an option to to receive feedback. So if they notice any problems they can they can they can reach out and let you know because issues will come up as you create new content or things get updated, there’ll be regressions and um you kind of have to stay on top of it. Accessibility just periodically do checks to make sure that uh nothing nothing fails. So

[00:52:26.15] spk_1:
yeah, that bleeds into maintaining accessibility over time. We have a few more minutes left. What’s your advice around keeping this up?

[00:53:44.05] spk_0:
Yeah. So I think to to keep this up, but you gotta understand that again. Regressions are common if you’re constantly updating your website and upload in your content. I think having manual checks periodically, so maybe once a month you have a bit of a checklist to go through. Um It’s a good idea. I think sharing some guidelines with your team, it’s it will go a long way rather than be um reactive and unfixed changes as they come up. Like you can make sure the new content that you’re creating meets the guidelines. So just having like a little checklist of. Okay, well, these are the common things that you want, we want to stick with will go a long way and then later, like, or if your budget allows, there’s a bunch of automation tools that will like run tests for you um on your website. So if you’re a bigger site and you have thousands of articles or things like that you might want to look into into that and and and accessibility of is it important to you that it might be worth it? Um So for example, I have here um like from DEak X. So it’s like an extension um There’s also accessibility insights from Microsoft or again the same website I linked to before. Well webbing. Uh they have a wave evaluation tools that you can wait. Let

[00:54:03.84] spk_1:
it goes more at the time. By the way, I have some floor work going on. So if you hear a circular star or some hammering or drilling okay, renovations outside and no worries.

[00:54:05.58] spk_0:
If you’re a crying baby, that’s that’s my baby outside the

[00:54:08.74] spk_1:
daughter. So.

[00:54:09.46] spk_0:
Okay. I

[00:54:15.14] spk_1:
haven’t heard any. All right, okay, great. Wait, let’s tick through those um those those resources again a little slower.

[00:54:18.03] spk_0:
Yeah, sure. Um So there’s acts by deke um Let’s see if I have the I don’t really have. Yeah. So like the website is D E. Q. U. E dot com for slash X.

[00:54:34.04] spk_3:

[00:54:35.37] spk_1:

[00:54:36.11] spk_0:

[00:54:38.02] spk_1:
X C four slash X. Okay.

[00:54:40.94] spk_0:
Then the other one is again the it’s the same website I mentioned before. They have an evaluation tool. So all these are kind of like extensions you install in your browser and then you can click a button and that tells you all these all the issues on your page. So it’s kind of like a handy thing.

[00:54:56.81] spk_1:
Yeah, the other one was what? Web dot A. I am.

[00:55:01.14] spk_0:
Yeah. That’s right.

[00:55:05.64] spk_1:
Okay. And and so all right. So there’s there’s a accessibility checker there as well.

[00:55:08.01] spk_0:
Yeah. And then the last one is by Microsoft is just this one is easy. Its accessibility insights that I owe.

[00:55:24.84] spk_1:
Okay, accessibility insights dot io Yeah. Alright. We like free tools like free totally bring this, bring this uh

[00:55:45.94] spk_0:
and I guess I’ll do one more. Um There’s a Khan Academy has one that is quite friendly. I don’t I mean I like it, it’s just like a little tool that you add to your bookmark and then whenever you go to a website you just click on that and it creates like a little pop up. Um So if you google just con economy and it’s uh it’s T. O. T. A. 11 Y.

[00:55:49.66] spk_1:
Way Con con K. H. A. N.

[00:55:54.82] spk_0:
Yeah akademi

[00:55:56.66] spk_1:
Khan Academy. Yeah.

[00:55:58.49] spk_0:
And then the tool is it’s T. O. T. A. 11 Y.

[00:56:03.53] spk_1:
T. O. T. A. 11 Y.

[00:56:05.67] spk_0:
Yeah so I think I don’t have an actual you’re all for it but it’s said to I use. Okay, so we can find

[00:57:29.43] spk_1:
an account academies. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right, thank you for those uh free resources. I like those. We’re gonna leave it there, martin. All right, okay. Cool. Well thank you for having me my pleasure. He’s martin to CASA President abound state software. Thank you again martin and thank you for being with 20 martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21. Ntc the 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c O next week. First generation wealth with Esther choi If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, yeah, thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty You with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Yeah.

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[00:02:40.44] spk_1:
on welcome tony-martignetti profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Welcome to our first podcast only show. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of in Texas itis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed today’s show Donor surveys. You’ll make the most of the donors you have by discovering their potential through surveying Crystal Mahan and Christian Robot Yard talk principles. Best practices and goal setting Crystal is with stars, Air ambulance and Christian. Is that beyond the bake sale? This is part of our 20 and TC coverage and people powered movements. This 20 NTC panel helps you build more effective and more inclusive movements by encouraging you to think about communications, power and privilege. They’re Selena Stewart from League of Women Voters. US and Gloria Pan with mom’s rising on tony steak, too. Planned giving accelerator were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Here is donor surveys. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference and 10 made the excruciating decision to cancel the non profit technology conference. But we are continuing virtually. You’ll get just as much value. We don’t have to all be close to pick the brains of the expert speakers from From N 10. Our coverage is sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software. The Knowledge Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Go to tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guests now are Crystal Mahan and Christian Robot Yard. Crystal is manager of annual giving at stars Air Ambulance and Christian is founder and chief podcaster at Beyond the Bake Sale. Crystal Christian. Welcome. Welcome to non profit radio,

[00:02:44.19] spk_2:

[00:02:45.00] spk_0:
Thanks, tony. Great to be here.

[00:02:46.42] spk_1:
It’s a pleasure to have both of you. You are both in ah, in Canada. Crystal. You are in Alberta and Christian. Remind me where you are.

[00:02:55.54] spk_0:
I’m in Ah, beautiful, Sunny Ottawa, Ontario.

[00:03:00.02] spk_1:
Ottawa. No other capital? Yes, in

[00:03:01.23] spk_0:
your nation’s capital. Not be not be disputed with Toronto. Who likes to think that the capital

[00:03:29.66] spk_1:
I know well and many Americans think it’s either Montreal with Toronto? Yes, but, uh, Ottawa Capital. All right. I’m glad to know that you’re both well and safe. Um, and glad to have you both with us. Thanks. Um, we’re talking about donor surveys. Your your NTC topic is ah, Dorner surveys your untapped data goldmine Crystal. Why are surveys a data goldmine?

[00:03:45.11] spk_2:
Well, we have the fortunate launching a survey. We’ve never done one prior to 2016. And when we did it, we were amazed at what we found. So we learned a lot about our donors. Education preferences. We made money, like, usually made that on that. And I’ll talk about. We actually ended up learning a lot about I’m getting prospects. And turns out that there were a lot of donors that we had no idea name Justin there will ever interested in the will. So there was a lot of revenue like hidden revenue that we were finally getting access to you. So that’s are where that line is moving your wits, but it’s preparing to you.

[00:04:23.61] spk_1:
Interesting. I’m looking forward to drilling into that more because I didn’t plan to giving fundraising as a consultant on sometimes asked by clients about doing surveys. So I’m interested in what you’re doing as well. Um, and and you’re getting gifts. You said you’ve made money back from them. So people do send you gifts of cash along with their surveys.

[00:04:53.69] spk_2:
Yes. Like this year we get. Because last year, 2019 are stars. Allies there, maybe $300,000 And that all the you people have been found for giving what? We’re looking at dollars. So it’s you cannot do a survey to seem like you. Point?

[00:04:54.30] spk_1:
Yeah. Did you say billions? With a B?

[00:04:57.21] spk_2:
No millions and

[00:05:08.78] spk_1:
millions. Okay, the audio is not perfect, so it almost sounded billions. So I want to be sure, because I’m listeners have the same question. Okay, Millions, millions is still very, very good. Um, Christian? Anything you want to head to about Why these air Ah, such a gold mine for non profits.

[00:05:14.81] spk_0:
I mean, besides the fact that you’re using data, obviously, to reinforce certain decisions and Teoh highlight certain wealth elements, I would say in terms of your sponsorship potential, I know a lot of organizations are looking more so into the corporate sponsorship corporate engagement side of things. And I think with your donor surveys, you could really reveal a lot around where people are working there levels in terms of positions within a certain company or organization. And that can lead you down some interesting pass from a corporate sponsorship perspective.

[00:06:05.94] spk_1:
Okay. Okay, um, your, um your description of the workshop said that make the most of the donors you already have. And it sounds like you both obviously are going there. Is there anything you want to add about sussing out the value that’s in your that you don’t know? You have among your current donors?

[00:06:31.20] spk_2:
Well, from our perspective, like it’s given us an opportunity to get to know our donors better in terms of what? What are they actually interested in learning about the organization or why are they choosing given that allows us to tailor messages, just be a lot more personal with them and act like we really know that was supposed to them just being a number. This is an opportunity to really cultivate that relationship and just continue bring them on war.

[00:06:41.08] spk_1:
Okay, um, is most of your content in the workshop around as practices for surveys? Is that what we’re gonna be exploring? Mostly

[00:07:05.94] spk_2:
Christian feel free to jump in and say that we were looking a lot of fast. Her best practice, then also, case studies. People would have some tangible examples how to actually launch one with consider. And what would actually need to do once they got

[00:07:24.46] spk_1:
OK? All right, well, let’s, um let’s start with, Like, where? Where do you get started? Who, Who who were the best people to send surveys to our What types of information are are you finding our most responded to or what types of questions are most responded to? How can you help us sort of frame? Ah ah, an outline of what we were to get started.

[00:07:55.62] spk_2:
Well, Christian and I talked a lot about building the proper spoke of your surveys of figuring out. Why exactly are you? What do you try to find out? And once, you kind of I guess you were down exactly what you’re trying to learn, what you’re trying to cheat, That sort of helping bigger. You need to actually reach up to what? The audience. You need to know that before.

[00:08:06.93] spk_1:
Okay, So, starting with your goals, what was the purpose of the darn thing? Yes. Okay. Okay. Um Christian. You want to jump in around, you know it’s starting to get this process started.

[00:08:15.29] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think as crystal, I were kind of building this piece at whether you’re talking about more of a philanthropic, focus for your surveying or whether you’re talking about more of a corporate sponsorship focus of it. You only want to ask yourself, I never different questions before you even get going things around. What do you ultimately want to know about your donor base? Or about this particular audience population that you’re ultimately looking for? More information on? Why are you doing this in the first place? Is, Is this more responsive? Isn’t it more of a proactive type surveyed that explore new avenues? Would you ultimately need to know? I think that’s an important element to focus on Is not asking everything but asking the right things? Who do you need to ask? So who is the actual population that you’re targeting at the end of the day? What would you do with the information? So don’t just collect information for information, say not that that’s not important. But what’s the actual actionable pieces for that? And how are you gonna protect that information? I think with today’s sensitivities around around data privacy, it’s really important for charities and nonprofits to Stuart that data as they would any type of gift that they ultimately get.

[00:09:27.71] spk_1:
Yeah, in terms of the data stewardship that that may constrain what you asked as well, because now you have, ah, conceivably a higher level of security that you need to maintain

[00:09:32.60] spk_0:
absolutely tony and even just in terms of sensitivities, of phrasing, certain questions, and that it’s important for you to think about how you phrase certain things and how intimate your ultimately getting. And if you do get that intimate, like you said, how do you protect that data? But also, what’s the purpose for collecting that particular piece of data side from? Well, it might be a nice toe have someday, instead of this actually contributes towards our bottom line.

[00:10:00.13] spk_1:
You’re doing surveys around corporate sponsorship, right? That’s the example you mentioned. So you’re getting to know where people work so that you might use that information for potential sponsorships.

[00:11:02.31] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, when you look at sponsorship, ultimately it it’s very much a business transaction. If you look at how Forbes just define sponsorship. It’s very much the cash and in kind fee paid to a property, a property being whether it’s ah terrible run or some type of adventure conference in this case, um, in return for access to the exploitable commercial potential associate without property. So anything of any other type of exploitable commercial potential, which is the most buzzer and definition you possibly could. If you think of any type of advertising medium, whether it’s TV, radio print, you want to know ultimately cruising your audience. And one of the best and most effective ways to do that is to conduct some type of survey to really tease out who are some of your very specific or niche audiences. Cannabis a niche. So it’s a bit of a cringe for for us up here in the North. But, uh, having a survey to really tease out who are who’s in your audience. And some of the more behavioral psychographic demographic features of that audience are particularly important, toe have to really make a compelling case toe corporations looking to use sponsorship with your organization,

[00:11:20.18] spk_1:
the, um what four matter using Christian crystal, I’m gonna ask you the same thing shortly. What? How are these offered to people?

[00:11:28.33] spk_0:
Yeah, so we so in the experience of I’ve high, we usually use ah surveymonkey survey of some kind that allows for a lot of cross top analysis to be able to say that people who are in between the ages of 18 and 29 this particular set of income, they have these particular purchase patterns. They care about your cause, toe ends degree. They, um, are engaged with your cause or with your property and whether it’s through social media or through certain print advertisements or whatever that might be. And we usually collect around 30 plus data points on all of those on all those elements, ranging from again behavioral to the demographic to psychographic Teoh. Some very pointed, specific questions around the relationship between your cause and the affinity for a certain corporation based on that based on not caring for that cause.

[00:12:39.89] spk_1:
Yeah. So you said collecting around 30 data points, does that? Does that mean a survey would have that many questions? Absolutely. Okay, now I’ve heard from guests in the past. May have even been ntc guests. Not this year, but, you know, the optimal number of questions for surveys like five or six or so and people bailout beyond that point.

[00:13:58.37] spk_0:
Yeah, and and usually before I had actually sent out a survey of that magnitude, I would agree with you. Tony and I agree with most. I think that the important differentiators one is that you frame it as it’s very much for improving the relationships and the ability for the cause properties, whether that’s your run, your gala, whatever that might be to raise money and usually the audience that you’re setting. That, too, is very receptive to that. I think you want to frame it also as your only collecting the most important of information. And you’re also looking at ah again like you’re incentivizing in some way, shape or form. So usually when you tailor it with some type of incentive Buta $50 gift card opportunity Teoh win something like that. Usually people a lot more or a lot more receptive. And in the time that we’ve done surveys, whether it’s in my my past days, consulting in the space or now doing a lot of work with charities nonprofits, we sent it to tens of thousands of respondents and get a pretty a pretty strong response rate and a really nominal, if negligible, amount of an unsubscribe rates. So people are not un subscribing from getting those questions, and in fact, they’re answering a lot of them and an important element, as well as making them optional. So not forcing people to house to fill out certain pieces but giving them the freedom to answer whatever questions they feel compelled to. But when you’re doing it for the cause, people are pretty are pretty compelled to respond to those states of questions.

[00:14:01.77] spk_1:
Okay, Crystal, how about you? What? What format are your service offered in?

[00:14:31.04] spk_2:
Did you both offline and online? So our donor base tends to skew a little bit older, though for us, a physical mailing is absolutely I’m only deals online, burgeon for, I guess, other parts of our donor base that are different. The graphical, just based on that person’s preference, is giving them that opportunity. But what we did find is that in terms of our offline responses, we had a lower was off rate of responses to the survey, but exponentially more donations coming through offline as online and then for online responses of the online certainly had a lot more responses to be online. Survey. There are fewer donations, so I found that there was an inverse relationship there about that very thing.

[00:15:41.08] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As paycheck protection program. Loan forgiveness This is still a front burner issue. You have got to get your loan forgiveness application in. Wegner has the info you need. Their latest free wagon are explains the state of P P P Loan forgiveness. What is forgivable? What documentation do you need? How to work with your lender? Go to wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource Is and recorded events. Now back to donor surveys with Crystal Mahan and Christian Robot Yard. Do you, ah, subscribe to the same opinion about the length that that could be up to 30 questions? In a survey, a ZX Christian was saying,

[00:16:17.66] spk_2:
We personally have a practice of you tiki bars between five and 10 questions. And sometimes we even Taylor that we know that some of these interested in particular programs we might take out a certain question. But in something else related specifically to them, for their isn’t variability in the surveys, but generally quite short, but I do agree with Christian for sure in terms of really framing the purpose of the survey and you to the questions around this is the whole purpose of this is to build a relationship with them and better serve them and get to know them better. And I think that really prince, And then you also

[00:16:23.41] spk_1:
just gonna ask about incentivizing, Okay? Something similar, Like drawing for a gift card. Something like that.

[00:16:33.91] spk_2:
Yeah. We get a star’s prize package. We wanted to do something about these decisions. You couldn’t get something but elsewhere. So yeah, way start for merchandise. So that’s

[00:17:18.04] spk_1:
okay. I’m gonna thank Christian for not having a good, uh, good video appearance because, you know, I’ve done 10 of these today, and they’re all gonna be all the video’s gonna be preserved. Except this one. Because Christian, um, as a very extreme background is really just a silhouette ahead with headphones. Really? Little I can see. But I’m grateful because my background just fell. I have a little tony, I have a tony-martignetti. You watched other of these videos which you’re gonna be available. This tony-martignetti non profit radio. So the easel you know, what’s that for? A form core, you know, sign. And it was behind me. It was, and it just fell while Crystal was talking. So thank you, Christian.

[00:17:29.66] spk_0:
It was just so surprised that you could ask 30 questions on a survey and get some type of degree of response.

[00:17:38.43] spk_1:
Only it shook my house that I’m

[00:17:40.42] spk_0:
30 data points. What madness is this? I’m

[00:17:58.70] spk_1:
so a gas man. Yes. And then also the fact that you the two of you disagree. Um, all right, so but I’m shouting myself, calling myself out as having a flimsy background lasted through. And that’s through, like, seven hours of this. I

[00:17:58.85] spk_0:
love it. Also, we don’t necessarily disagree, but I think different surveys serve their different purposes. So I agree with Crystal that in that particular case, you only need descends. One that has 5 to 10 questions rise in this case, your public sending it to in a slot strip case, you’re probably sending it to a larger population of people. And you only need a certain amount of people to fill it out.

[00:18:18.73] spk_1:
Crystal, I had asked you, and you probably answered, but I got distracted by my collapsing background. What? What kinds of incentives do you offer?

[00:18:40.21] spk_2:
We offer stars prize pack. So it’s stars over two nights that we want to talk or something a little bit different other than my gift card that they could get through any other. Yeah, it’s so different Angle

[00:19:00.18] spk_1:
personalized two stars. Okay, Okay, Um, now, was yours specifically Ah, planned giving survey, or did you just have a couple of planned giving questions? And that’s where you discovered this data goldmine of future gift. And all the wheels that you found out that you’re in was

[00:19:27.84] spk_2:
it was it was not specific to plan giving, so it was more just a general survey. And then we did have a question about plan giving and that we were stunned. But subsequent years we kept asking mad, and right now we’re sort of in the middle of doing that whole. I’m giving strategy and trying to really build that out. Now that we know that there is this whole core people that are interested in this. So it’s really opened up the water opportunities President organization after all.

[00:19:43.23] spk_1:
Yeah. Interesting. Okay. All right. So you learned from the first time this is you’re in a lot more estates than you had. Any idea? Um, let’s let’s talk about some more good practices for surveys. Crystal, is there something you can one of two things you want to recommend and then we’ll come toe go back to Christian.

[00:19:53.81] spk_2:
Yeah, One of my major things is that if you’ve been asked a question, you have to know where you’re going to do with that data after the fact that you were people just ask the question to ask a question for whatever reason. But then they don’t action. Anything out of it to me is very important that if our donors are gonna spend the time actually breathe through your survey, respond, mail it in or submitted online, that we actually do something that that information is the weather bats killer. It’s a messaging or changing communication preferences or whatever it is you’re asking us to do, you were tell has I think that’s so important that you have to have all a plan once these losses come back. And what are we gonna do with them? Who was going to take action? How are we gonna reason with this? How are we going to use information.

[00:21:15.77] spk_1:
I think of date of birth is as a good example of that. If you’re gonna, if you’re gonna develop a plan to congratulate someone for their birth on their birthday each year, then that could be a valuable data point. Um, but if you just, you know, if you’re just asking because you you don’t have a purpose, you just interested in what their ages? For some vague reason, then there’s no there’s no value in asking. And if it is just to follow up, if it’s just to know their you know when you want to send a card, maybe you don’t need the year. Maybe just need the day in the month. But if there’s value to your database for knowing their age and you would ask for a year

[00:21:23.72] spk_2:
exactly how he felt down, what do we need to know? I really asking

[00:21:30.90] spk_1:
why, Kristen, you have a best practice you want to share.

[00:21:33.84] spk_0:
Yeah, I would say Consider the not just the population size that you’re not just the population that you’re serving, but also the representative makeup. So if you know that your database is predominantly on more, the senior side of things, but you’re getting a disproportion amount of more individuals who are on the younger side of things. In terms of respondents, that’s something important that you have to take into account. So the makeup of the actual population is is more important. I would argue that the amount of responses you could get a crazy amount of responses. But if it doesn’t represent the population that you’re serving and that who make up your donors, it’s it’s not gonna be valuable dated to you. I remember one time we had a ZX instance for an organization wanted Teoh do a survey for sponsor purposes, and in other cases, it’s been from or donor specific, like, I will just put it on on Facebook or Twitter or something like that. It’s not necessarily your population is not necessarily the group that you’re looking that you’re actively engaged with a fundraising perspective. You get information to the otherwise and then obviously reflect on that and use that. But be really clear about the breakdown that you need to have in order to make the information, actually, representative of the rest of your database,

[00:22:47.24] spk_1:
Um, what kind of response rates what’s what’s a decent response rate to, ah to a survey?

[00:23:06.51] spk_0:
I think it depends what type of server you’re sending. I will let Crystal speak to this more, but I’d say if it’s philanthropic. Eikenberry on the sponsorship side of things you’re looking for a response rate that coincides with the 95% confidence interval with a 5% margin of error. Let’s get market data to calculate that there’s a bunch of big captain complicated formulas that we probably have all repressed from our time in. In statistics Citizen that in university there’s ah company called Surveymonkey that actually has a calculator for its. If you go to the Surveymonkey website, you can actually just plug in a what the sample side of what the actual size of the database you’re sending into. And you can plug in what confidence interval that you want. And then what margin of error that you’d like, and it will pump out a number of a minimum that you need to have. I would say that’s a good starting point. But again, as I talked about before, make sure you have the representative break up breakdown of, ah, who’s actually within your audience reflected in the survey results and don’t have it disproportionately skewed towards a particular demographic that might be just more inclined. Teoh, respond to surveys.

[00:24:25.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay, um, Crystal, Anything you want to add about the confidence, it’s different, but yeah, I withdraw that. That doesn’t make sense for you because you’re doing individual philanthropic surveys. So each response you get is valuable. You find out that someone is interested in planned giving already, has you in their will. That one response has has great value. Yes. Okay.

[00:24:39.74] spk_2:
Our purpose of our surveys a little bit different. We don’t worry so much about that, but I actually meeting how like that in your mind. Reaching out to you?

[00:24:44.24] spk_1:
What? What kind of response rate to use for the crystal is still you know, these things? Things take time and you’re doing Some of them are offline. So there’s postage and printing, et cetera. What kind of response rate do you consider good for? For a NH effort like that

[00:25:40.43] spk_2:
in terms of financial reform? Three. So don’t verify that for us, a response to the survey doesn’t necessarily mean a gift, and it gets to the survey, doesn’t necessarily mean that they responded to a number. Yes, we usually eight or 86%. But in terms of actual response to the survey, we’ve seen his lower 2% for the highest 7% a year of channel. So either way, like we have, quite like we have quite a large database. So any of you to be So get this information, your father.

[00:25:42.89] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, for your online surveys. Crystal, are you using surveymonkey? Also, did you say

[00:25:48.80] spk_2:
use a couple leased surveymonkey last year? It is very user friendly. What? I would caution people are always print about whatever price package designed for because, like you discussed for our surveys a big focuses financial tournament. So we needed to price plan that involved being able to redirect right from surveymonkey page to our donation form. So you had to be really mindful things like that. So in some of the basic packages, they don’t write redirect donation form in that you can’t Do you have a really negatively impact your

[00:26:27.94] spk_1:
Is there another online tool that you like? Also you?

[00:26:52.64] spk_2:
I used Teoh from cold response. Ter. We’ve there be start a sweetener somewhere in Europe, and they were very good, though there are some limitations is well with them in terms of what the packages offer. But bring out we’re using serving Look, you know what was sending out like, for example, looking at surveys. This any surveymonkey already of our to be rich 8th 1 So that’s what we’re using.

[00:26:56.04] spk_1:
Okay, how about you, Christian? Is there another one besides Surveymonkey that you could recommend?

[00:27:22.01] spk_0:
I I think it just depends on what you’re looking for. A tony. So if you’re looking for a lot of, let’s say, more qualitative answers, I’d say even a Google form would would be more than would be more than acceptable. It really just depends on what functionality want to get out of. I used every monkey pretty religiously, just cause it’s like Crystal said. It’s very user friendly. It has the functionality that I need, and it’s and it’s relatively reasonable in terms of in terms of price point for what you get. It’s also gonna depend, and it’s up to you to do due diligence on what types of functionality you need. You need to integrate with your database for other software. Do you need certain functionality. Do you actually know how to use a lot of those things? Is there gonna be support and again, like what? What are they going to do with your data? Like, do they have access to your data? Whether it’s metadata or otherwise, Are there other rules of jurisdictions you have to consider with that data privacy? So I use every monkey by lots of considerations to make.

[00:28:04.85] spk_1:
Okay, Okay. Thank you. And Kristen wanted to, uh why don’t you lead us out with some Take us out with some, I guess. Motivation. Closing thoughts like to end with?

[00:28:05.97] spk_0:
Absolutely, I would say from a sponsor perspective, whether you’re a large organization or small organization, the riches during the niches. So to do good sponsorship, it requires good data, and it requires those 30 plus data points. But whether you’re a big group or a small group, you can compete at the same scale, especially with the amount of money that’s being spent on cost sponsorship over $2 million a worldwide, which is no small amount of money. That’s that you can get access you whether you’re $100,000 a year, order a $1,000,000 plus requires good data. So make sure you’re collecting good data. Make sure you’re clear on what do you want to use your information for? And, uh, not just the diligent in ah, making training step, but the data is actually protected.

[00:28:50.64] spk_1:
Okay, um, I was I was I was gonna let Christian end, But since the two of you have such divergent purposes, which is fabulous for it’s great for a discussion Divergent purposes around your surveys. Crystal, why don’t you take us out on the on the filling topic? The individual donor side?

[00:29:51.64] spk_2:
Yes. So play for discussing. Don’t be afraid to fundraise just because survey doesn’t mean that you can’t make money off of it. People are supporting you enough that they’re willing to fill out the remainder onto you. They may be going to donators alone, and then I’ll help without it said you have to know why you do what you do with that information. It’s really important in terms of respecting your door time and back. That there giving you this information, you need to be able to use it and sort properly and safely. And then last may I just say please, please please test your survey before you actually sending out Senator One other part fans are other people that are not in the midst of building the surveys that you can find out. You phrase things appropriately. You’re actually wanting what you want to functionality is appropriate. I think that’s just so we don’t have one chance of finding out. So just make sure that

[00:30:01.59] spk_1:
okay, thank you very much. That’s Crystal Mahan, manager of annual giving at stars Air Ambulance. And with her is Christian Rubber Yard founder and chief podcaster at Beyond the bake sale crystals in Alberta. And ah, I’m sorry, Crystal. Did I just say Crystal? Yeah.

[00:30:21.02] spk_2:
You know, yesterday

[00:30:23.48] spk_1:
I say, Chris Christie, Mr Just all I know is in Alberta,

[00:30:25.30] spk_0:
you know, we don’t make it easy on your tony

[00:30:36.35] spk_1:
on, and I got through 25 minutes. So well, and I know it’s a lackluster host. I’m sorry. This is stuck with in the Christians in the capital city of Ottawa. Thank you so much, Christian Crystal. Thank you very

[00:30:40.72] spk_0:
much. Thanks, tony.

[00:33:31.93] spk_1:
Thanks to you for being with joining martignetti non profit radio coverage off 20 NTC, the non profit technology conference Responsive at the conference by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain will get you a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us now. Time for Tony’s Take two. I am still very proud to announce the launch of planned giving accelerator. This is a yearlong membership community that is going to get your planned giving program started. I’m going to give you exclusive webinars Exclusive podcasts. Yes, beyond tony-martignetti non profit radio, there’s gonna be the exclusive podcast for accelerator members. Small group asked me anything. Sessions over Zoom I’ll have Resource is like templates and checklists. All of this is to get your planned giving program started. You’ll join for a year. I will keep you filled with exclusive content, and you will get your program started. I promise I will make planned giving easy, accessible and affordable. You can check out all the information at planned giving accelerator dot com. If you may not be quite ready for membership, you don’t want to look at that quite yet. You just want to dip your toes in the water. I have a free how to guide about getting your planned giving program started to see a theme. Here, you see, you see the consistency running through here. This is not This is not accidental. Please, please the free how to guide you Download that also at planned giving accelerator dot com, that is Tony’s Take two. Now it’s time for people powered movements. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference. Of course, the conference was canceled, but we are persevering. Virtually sponsored. A 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guests now are Selena Stewart and Gloria Pan. Selena is senior director of advocacy and litigation at League of Women Voters. US. And Gloria is vice president for member engagement at Mom’s Rising Celina. Gloria. Welcome. Hello. I’m glad we were able to put this virtually. It’s good to see both of you. Um and I’m glad to know that you each well and safe and in either D. C or just outside D. C. Selena, you’re in d. C and Gloria. Where you outside Washington Gloria

[00:33:46.60] spk_4:
I am actually near Dulles Airport. So, you know, some people commute from here, but because Mom’s rising is a virtual organization, I don’t. And so when people ask me for lunch, I’m always like, Okay, it takes a little bit more planning. I have to bend. I have to get my body injustices.

[00:34:18.24] spk_1:
Okay, Um, you’re NTC Topic is a revolution is coming. Top tactics, build people powered movements. Um, Selena, would you get us started with this? What? What was the need for the session?

[00:35:27.88] spk_3:
Well, I think, um, I think one of the things is right now it’s all about people power. You know, there’s everything is so politicized right now, and I think that there is often a conversation about how people are involved with what government actually represents or what the government is representing. So I think that that’s really, really important. Um, we also saw, like, a 2018 mawr voter turnout, more voters turning out to vote and things like that. So I think that that also is a part of us people conversation like what is compelling people to participate, even mawr, or at a greater extent in their democracy. But all of these things kind of work together to figure out. Not only do we have people engaged now, but what is important. What just community is more people become engaged. How does how does our definition of our community and communities in general changes? More people are included and participating all of those things. So I think that we’re at a very interesting and crucial moment in time. And so people powered and people involved movement. It’s it’s, I think it’s always happen. But it’s just a coin phrase. I think that’s especially prevalent right now.

[00:35:56.69] spk_1:
Good, Gloria, even though participation is is very high, were also largely polarized. So how do we overcome the opposite ends of the spectrum to tryto bring people together and and organize?

[00:36:01.33] spk_4:
Are you talking about everyone or are you talking about voters?

[00:36:17.39] spk_1:
Uh, well, I’m talking about the country. I don’t know. I don’t know whether I don’t know where the people are voting, but I’m talking about our political polarization. I don’t know if they’re necessarily voting. I

[00:36:20.97] spk_3:
I talked about voting, so I probably threw it off a little bit. Glory. They act like I’m asking for

[00:37:19.89] spk_4:
complication only because, like some of the most talented and I think unifying on politicians in recent memory. For example, Barack Obama did not succeed in unifying all of us, right? So there are some segments of our citizenry that will just not do it. We will not be able to come together with them. But I think that for, um, people who really do want the best for our country and who are open minded enough, Teoh want to hear from other people who have different, you know, slightly different ways of looking at the world. It is possible to do it, and that goes back to what Selena was saying about people powered movements. I think that one of the reasons why that’s become more more of a catchphrase is that you know, we are in an era of information overload. We are in an era of polarization and not believing everything that we’re seeing on the Internet and in the news. And so being able to actually really connect with people on the ground, in person, over the phone, but directly and not going through the filter of social media or news movements is it’s increasingly important, and that will be one of the main channels for us to unify as many people as possible.

[00:38:16.42] spk_1:
So we’re talking about creating these both online and offline, right? Um, people powered people, centred movements. Um, how, Gloria, how do we want nonprofits to think about or what we need to think about in terms of doing this, organizing, creating these these movements,

[00:39:11.07] spk_4:
I’m First of all, it’s about inclusivity. Okay, So, um, at least from where we set Mom’s rising and me speaking on behalf of Monster Rising right now, we want to make sure that whatever we do and if it’s the most people and harms no one at all, if possible. So that’s one part of it. How we speak, how we communicate to make sure that what we’re speaking and how we communicate does not reinforce add stereotypes that creates divisions. Okay, that’s one way, another way, not way. But another thing to consider are also the tools that we’re using. Are we using your people are on different kinds of communication tools. Some people only do Facebook. Other people only do on email on dhe. There also is like text messaging there. All of these new community communications goes towards coming on and being on top of the different tools. Superb, warden, Because we need to meet people where they are. Um, because you’re just a couple of thoughts.

[00:39:36.49] spk_1:
Okay. Um so sorry, Selina. So we’re talking about diversity equity inclusion. Let’s drill down into a little bit of, like, what do we What do we need to do around our communications that is more equitable and non harming?

[00:39:57.72] spk_3:
So I think that’s an important question of us. Definitely something that has been injured in the leaks work over the last, I would say five years, but more intentionally over the last two. I’m sorry. I

[00:40:01.52] spk_1:
mean, he’s sorry. Whose work?

[00:42:09.00] spk_3:
The league. I’m sorry. I always refer to the League of Women Voters with us. Okay. Colleagues were led. Sorry. Boats that are full title is just too long for me to keep saying so. I just prefer to see Oh, I got you know, d I is very, very important for us. You know, our organization has historically been older white women. We’ve also always had members of color. But I don’t know that they were always at the forefront. So for us, our work is really centered in two questions and everything that we’re doing, who’s at the table and who should be at the table who’s missing. So I think starting all of our conversation in the efforts that we’re doing with those two questions allows us to center on our work in diversity, equity inclusion and also use our power as, um, people who have had access to legislator stakeholders, et cetera. How did we use our power and in a way that allows access of inclusivity for more people. So I think that that is really important and something that DEA diversity and inclusion work. It’s hard just versus It’s not easy, you know it. It gets very uncomfortable a lot of times when you’re talking about privilege, patriarchy and all of the talk about as it relates to d I. But it’s so important to get comfortable being uncomfortable and having these conversations that the only way I think that we can start to build a bridge towards unifying Um, CA music is at the end of the day, we may be politically, but at the end of the day, we all share many of the very same values which is historically united this country. Like right now we’re in the midst of the Corona virus. The Corona virus doesn’t care where the Republican Democrat black, white, female male does. It doesn’t matter. I’m at the end of the day, we all have to make sure that we’re doing what we can to be safe as individuals. But also our actions greatly impact the people around us. So it’s more of a It’s more of a community mindset that’s required or to tap this down. So I know that that’s like a little offset. All shoot from what we’re talking about. But I think it all placed together in some way, shape or form.

[00:42:30.65] spk_1:
Okay, um, Gloria about for moms rising. And how do you ensure that your communications are equitable on dhe? Non harmful?

[00:43:35.32] spk_4:
Well, Mom’s Rising has very intentionally built an organization that tries to bring different voices to the table. We are intersectional and we are multi issue, and so from our staff were very bad person, many, many different ways, and from the way that we choose which issues to work on, we also take into consideration which these are being impacted and how we communicate about those and then the way that we campaign is that our campaigns are always overlap. And so there is different people within the organization as well as a partner policy partners from different issue areas. They help us that our issues and the way that we communicate with them to make sure that you know you are we’re not communicating in a way that that that excludes communities, reinforces bad stereotype pipes and raises red flags, make make, make people feel bad ways that we don’t understand because of where we individuals. Campaigners. No. So everything we do is very thoroughly betters through different filters.

[00:43:48.70] spk_1:
Okay, so you re vetting. Yeah, please. Yeah, so, you know,

[00:44:55.97] spk_3:
I totally agree with what glorious said. I think that’s really important because the league is also multi issue and kind of has that you have to compete when you multiple issues. You sometimes have toe think a little differently about how you present yourself on each issue in orderto not negatively impact the whole set of what you’re trying to accomplish. And so for us and the communication speaks, I’m expressly is thinking about whether it’s appropriate who’s the appropriate messenger when we’re communicating so Is it appropriate for the league to be a leader in this space, or do we need to take a step back and be a supporter? So I think that’s one of the things that’s very important for us. Communication wise is we’re figuring out what is what space are we gonna take up in the communication in space and how we’re gonna communicate this issue and then the other pieces Who’s talking? Who is the person that we’re putting in front actually speak about a particular issue and is, Is that the right person? And are they speaking from the lens that’s most appropriate for that particular issue that’s gonna be impacted most as a result of what you’re saying or doing? So I think that’s very important. With Gloria lifted up

[00:46:14.78] spk_1:
time for our last break turn to communications relationships, the world runs on them. We know this turn to is led by former journalists, so you’re going to get their help building relationships with journalists. They’ve been there, they know how to do it. They know what the pitfalls are and they know how to do it wrong so they will steer you to the right way to build relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field. They specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for people powered movements with Selena Stewart and Gloria Pan. How do you manage the conflicting issues? If you know, I guess it’s because there are issues where you have a large constituency on one side of one issue. But something else may seem contrary to that to that large constituency. A different issue that you’re taking a stand on Is that Is that my understanding? Right when you say, you know, potential issue conflict?

[00:46:51.33] spk_3:
Well, when you have a 500,000 members and supporters and you’re in every congressional district, everybody can agree on on how to approach an issue. But what grounds? The league is our mission. Our mission is to empower voters and democracy. Power people defend democracy. So I think as long as you stay rooted in what your chin values statement is that you can find some reconciliation across, you know the most seemingly divergent issues Okay,

[00:46:58.68] spk_1:
climate change That I think would probably be a good example. I was just

[00:47:11.43] spk_4:
I was I was gonna add, okay, that just to step back a little bit. The one thing that I am super super proud of, um, is that a toll east for progressives? I think that we’re actually pretty consistent in about our agreement on your shoes. We may have different levels of intensity and what we agree with, but I think they’re very few conflicts. We may not agree on how to get somewhere, but we all agree on where we want to go. Okay, So in that way, I rather feel, at least from Mom’s rising standpoint, we rarely get. I can’t even think of a single instance where we have conflicts because we’re not agreeing with each other or with policy partners on the most important thing where we’re heading.

[00:47:45.75] spk_3:
So I think that’s a difference, because are the league is it’s not left or right leaning were kind of way. We have members who are both conservative and liberal. Yeah, have some of that conflict more in that. But I think you’re absolutely right. Do we all want the same things and a healthier, more vibrant democracy. Absolutely. So you have to find some common ground in that space. But we definitely have members who are who want to handle things. One way, versus the other. We have to find common ground.

[00:49:02.57] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s the challenge. I was trying to get it. Yeah, okay. It helps. At least it helps me to think of an example like climate change. You know, some. There are some people who don’t even believe that it’s it’s human impacted. And there are others who think, where decades behind and in our inaction Teoh Teoh, reverse the effects of human induced climate change. So, um, it’s Ah, that’s that’s quite a challenge. Really. So, um Okay, Well, where else? Well, should we go with these people? Powered movement ideas? You you, you to spend a lot more time studying this. So what else should we be talking about? That we haven’t yet. I

[00:49:02.65] spk_4:
would actually love to hear from Selena how the league is dealing with. I’m doing your work remotely.

[00:49:10.59] spk_3:
You guys are already virtual. This is like, No, no sweat for you guys, right? Well, you know,

[00:49:37.30] spk_4:
I mean, we do have, you know, our plans range from virtually all the way down to the grassroots. Right? And I think especially for organizations like your Selena, we share the, um, the common goal this year of border engagements. I am very sorry I opened the door. Family a letter out. I’m

[00:49:43.14] spk_3:
very sorry. Okay.

[00:49:45.25] spk_1:
All right. So, you know, um, terms of remote working, but yeah, but how it relates to this topic of people power.

[00:50:59.86] spk_3:
Yeah. So I think that’s really, really important. We’re definitely so it is one thing to convert toe er teleworking, right? That’s one thing. But when your work is so much advocacy, um, and especially the leaders on the ground who are doing voter registration, which requires you to be on the ground talking to people, you know, that has shifted our work. So one of the examples that we have because we have our people power fair mass campaign, which is basically trying to get redistricting reform for across the country and a positive waste that we don’t have another situation like we had in North Carolina where you’re from, tell me and also and Maryland subs we wanna we wanna make sure that you know people are represented appropriately, but a lot of the states that were working in they have a signature collection campaigns going on right now. So how do you do signature collection when you can’t actually be within three or six feet of people? So now many of our leaks air converting to digital signatures and going through their legislator to make those adjustments that they can still collect signatures and meet that need, et cetera, Our love. We have a lobby core, which is 21 volunteers that goes to the hill every month. Obviously, with the hill being also teleworking, it created what we thought might be a barrier. But now our lobbies are doing virtual coffee meetings on Zoom just like this and having those conversations with legislators, legislative staff and all of those things. So I think that the Corona virus has forced us to do our work in a different way. But it’s also being great to innovate and be creative and do the work that people love just in a different way. So we it’s not perfect. I don’t even want to make you think that this is perfect because it’s definitely not. But I think that there’s a lot of positive energy about doing our work and finding ways to do our work in different ways.

[00:52:27.38] spk_1:
Which, okay, is thinking creatively. I for our for our listeners. And I don’t want to focus just on Mom’s rising and legal women voters us. I want them to recognize how what we’re talking about can be applied by them, how they they, what they need to go back to their CEOs or whatever vice presidents wegner And what kind of like discussion items they need to be putting forward at the organization is not now thinking about in terms of, you know, again, people power revolution is coming. Yeah, you know how how how can our listeners helped create it?

[00:53:21.55] spk_3:
I think just becoming involved, like when you’re talking about people powered anything, it’s really about base building. And for me, the goals of base base building are always to grow. A base of volunteers who have a shared value of some sort and you’re coming together in orderto makes the progressive movement on that. It’s also about leadership, development, communities and constituency who turn out who are players in this issue or what have you and then putting issues to the forefront. So I think that wherever you is, what do you value? What’s important to you? You could be a simple as Hey, there’s a pothole, my street that has been fixed in the last year. Can we come together as a community and really talk with our local election officials about making sure our streets are in a position that’s not gonna record cars or have someone get endangered in some way? So I think it comes down to, as on an individual level, what is important to you. What do you value and finding and connecting with those people? Also, that you something similar? And what do you want to change? What is it that you’re trying to change or that would make your life better? And who were the people who can support you in getting that done?

[00:53:55.15] spk_1:
That’s consistent with what you said down an organization level to the same. You know what? The core values, that’s what that’s what drives all the work on, brings people together finding that commonality around, whether it’s the pothole in the street and the individual level.

[00:54:01.45] spk_3:
Whoever whatever. Here, whatever.

[00:54:08.59] spk_1:
Jim Yeah, Gloria, What? What’s your advice for how people can contribute to this revolution.

[00:55:16.50] spk_4:
Um, I think that right now we’re all sitting in our homes and we’re rethinking the way that we do our work. And even as individuals, we’re rethinking the way that we are doing our activism. You think that a very important message right now for activists personally and for organizations that organize activists and try to recruit and build the base, is that now is not the time to step away. Now, more important than ever, it is important to stand top of the issues, to sign those petitions, to speak up and to share your stories, because I will give you a very, very specific example. Right now, Congress is negotiating, arguing over all of these different critical needs in the Corona virus relief bills. While Mom’s Rising has been on the forefront of trying to influence those negotiations. And the most powerful weapon we have are your stories, people stories, what’s gonna happen to your child care center that has to close down what’s gonna happen to a domestic workers who suddenly don’t have a paycheck? Um, paid family leave. This is something that a signature mounds rising issue. We’ve been working on luck forever ever since. Our founding is one of our signature issues. But now, because of the stories that we have gathered and we’re hearing from our members about the need for pay leave and the fact that if we had had paid leave all this time that the burden of Corona virus would have been much lighter this is something that we’re powerfully bringing to the negotiating table. And we’re actually seeing We’re going on paid leave. So all organizations and all individuals, whatever issues that you’re working on, do not step away, continue to share your stories because those stories have to be brought to the negotiating table for policy. And that’s the only way we’re gonna get the policy that we need.

[00:57:30.53] spk_1:
Okay, We’re gonna leave it there. That’s Ah, quite inspirational. Thank you. That’s Ah, That’s Gloria Pan, Vice President, member engagement, engagement at Mom’s Rising. And also Selena Stewart, senior director of advocacy and litigation. The League of Women voters. Us though Gloria Selena. Thank you very much. Thanks for sharing. Thank you, Tommy. Pleasure and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 ntc were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? Thanks so much for being with us next week. An archive show. I promise you, I’ll pick a winner If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy on this music is by Scots Dying with me next week for not profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.