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Nonprofit Radio for January 31, 2022: The 40 Laws Of Nonprofit Impact

Derik Timmerman: The 40 Laws Of Nonprofit Impact

We can’t hit all of them, but that’s the title of Derik Timmerman’s book. He’s got advice like “give to gain,” “hire with ruthless selectivity,” “win while you’re sleeping,” and “eat last and get dirty.” We’ll talk about these and other ideas. Derik is the founder of Sparrow Nonprofit Solutions.

 

 

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[00:00:10.04] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and

[00:01:59.04] spk_1:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of paragon on my Asus if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show The 40 laws of nonprofit impact, we can’t hit them all. But that’s the title of Derek Timmermans book. He’s got advice like give to gain higher with ruthless selectivity win while you’re sleeping and eat last and get dirty. We’ll talk about these and other ideas. His company is Sparrow nonprofit solutions On Tony’s take two 50% off planned giving accelerator ends next week. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. It’s a pleasure to debut on nonprofit radio Derek Timmerman, he is founder of Sparrow nonprofit Solutions, a nationwide consulting firm helping nonprofits maximize their world changing impact. Before Sparrow he was a management consultant at Mckinsey and Company and the U. S. Army intelligence officer with two combat deployments to Iraq. The company is at Sparrow N. S. That’s Sparrow november. Sierra in military talk dot com. Sparrow N. S dot com. Derek Timmerman. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:01.69] spk_2:
tony it’s a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:06.84] spk_1:
It’s my pleasure to have you. Thank you and thank you for your

[00:02:08.64] spk_2:
service. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. Absolutely.

[00:02:11.03] spk_1:
You’re one of our West point alumni as well

[00:02:14.58] spk_2:
that’s right that’s right Yeah so any navy fans out there? I’m sorry about that. But uh,

[00:02:22.44] spk_1:
Um, yeah, I’ve been there. I have a nephew who graduated there. I think he was 94. Okay, 90 for the year to score something. You have a little, a little jingle that goes with every year. I think he was like

[00:02:34.97] spk_2:
we do, Yeah. And an impressive that you know that, so mine is uh, pride and all we do 2002. We were actually the bicentennial class. So the thing was founded in 18 02. So they called us the golden Children all the way through that because it was celebrated that we were the 2/100 anniversary class of, of West Point. So Pride and all we do. 02.

[00:03:05.14] spk_1:
Okay, outstanding. And you just made me realize my, my nephew is much younger than that. So it ended with a four, I would say 94. It was probably 2,004,000. So what I was wearing, he’s, he’s much younger than you and

[00:03:10.74] spk_2:
me, which, which means, which means he might have been there when I was there and I as a, as a senior or junior, I might have given him a hard time. So apologies if he’s listening and if, if I, if I made him do push ups or something, I don’t know.

[00:03:27.94] spk_1:
All right. We’ll shout him out. Jacob, Jacob Weber. Okay. Yeah. No, I, I, and I witnessed, what are the, uh, I witnessed some of the the rehearsals for a day a day is the very first day right acceptance or a day. Is that the very first day that the new cadets, the first year

[00:04:04.34] spk_2:
cadets register now? You’re really stretching my the other day reception day. That’s what it is. Yeah, blocked it out. It’s a memory that you know, honestly tony It’s a difficult thing to dredge up my friends. So yeah, but our day reception day that was a significant emotional event for sure. Okay.

[00:04:05.72] spk_1:
And so from the, from Mckinsey and the and the and the United States Army, why sparrow nonprofit services Sparrows to me seems so frail. Uh they don’t have long life spans. Why why set me straight? Why is it sparrow nonprofit

[00:05:15.04] spk_2:
service? Yeah, I think it’s a great question. I love this question. Uh, so I I’m a person of faith. My faith commitments are very, very important to me. And there is a biblical passage. Uh, that goes something like uh you are worth more than many sparrows kind of talking about the fact that um our creator sees everything every part of his creation including you know the smallest tiniest sparrow and we as people are worth more than many sparrows. So I wanted to give nonprofit leaders sort of that sense uh in all the work that I do uh that they’re seen their valued, they’re not alone and they have worth because it’s as your listeners, I’m sure know who our nonprofit leaders, it can be, it can be a lonely thing. So that’s why the name Sparrow is to bake that into the heart of everything that we are into.

[00:05:21.04] spk_1:
Alright, thanks. And they are our listeners. Derek, please our listeners. And and I cited the company were incorrectly Sparrow nonprofit solutions.

[00:05:30.39] spk_2:
It’s not

[00:05:31.41] spk_1:
mere services, services, any Schmo can provide services. Sparrow. Sparrow provides solutions. So,

[00:05:39.34] spk_2:
alright, let’s let’s talk about

[00:06:02.84] spk_1:
The book. The 40 laws of nonprofit impact. I’ve got, I’ve got a bunch that I would like to talk about, but I don’t know. I’m feeling generous. I’m feeling a little anarchic today. So I’m gonna, and listeners will know that this is outside what’s what’s typical. I’m gonna throw it to you first. You you pick a you pick a law, You have 40 laws? Yes. The 40 laws were broken down into different categories. You you pick a favorite law of yours. What’s the one you like to talk about

[00:08:54.54] spk_2:
first. Oh my goodness. You’re asking me to pick one of my favorite Children. And this is, this is difficult, but okay, then forget it. I’ll go for it. I I got, I got one. Um, so the one that I find raises the most eyebrows with nonprofit leaders that I speak with and maybe provokes the most reflection and thought on their part. So that’s fun when, when I can have that impact is law number to define the win. Um, really what that’s all about is uh, gently challenging nonprofit leaders to identify what is the fundamental unit of impact for their non profit organization. So a lot of words there, but let me, let me sort of share a simple example if, if I was on my high school football team, I’m not a big guy. So there was a time when I wanted to gain weight to be on the football team, If that was my goal to gain weight, the fundamental unit of impact would be what? £1? A single pound. Right? So that’s the number of units I’m trying to replicate and grow in my nonprofit, um, similar, you know, if, if I’m at this stage in my life and I might have one or two lbs to lose the fundamental unit of impact would be losing a pound. So that’s, that’s kind of the idea is that within your nonprofit, what is that unit? That is the thing that defines the win. So it’s, it’s incredible to me how many nonprofits go through their day to day operations not knowing that or having a vague sense of a general mission without having that unit of impact firmly in mind. But once they select it, They’re able to say a vision that they want to cast for the next 3-5 years. So let’s say that you and I Tony I’m in Denver and Love Nature trails. Let’s say that you and I together wanted to found a nonprofit to preserve public nature trails in the Denver area. The unit of impact would be one mile of nature trail that we keep clean, pristine, uh, keep it, you know, preserved. Um, from week to week we go out on the trail and that’s the mile that we, that we preserve. Um, well, let’s say we get a bunch of volunteers to help us, uh, and set a goal of five years from now. We want to have 1000 pristine clean public nature trails in the Denver area that are cleaned. Uh, that’s our pile of units of impact that we want to have. We just cast a vision for our nonprofit that we can gear the whole organization to the board, the staff, the volunteers, everybody has that vision of 1000 miles of public nature trail there, Derek, I’m a

[00:08:57.70] spk_1:
Little, I’m concerned you’re already backpedaling because the book posits 2500

[00:09:02.27] spk_2:
miles. I know

[00:09:04.03] spk_1:
this hypothetical nature nature trail preserves, preservation, nonprofit. Now you’re now you’re, you’re back down to only 1000. What happened to 2500 goal?

[00:09:13.03] spk_2:
Well, so that’s, I’m in Denver now in the book, it’s in north and south Carolina. So there’s more trails in the whole two states to work with. But yeah, I think around Denver there’s 1000. But yeah, thank you for catching me on that though. You’re, I can tell you’re a close reader. I read the book. I read that and I appreciate it. That’s all

[00:09:33.19] spk_1:
right. We’ll stick with 1000 will be modest. It’s, it’s the start of 1000 miles in the first year

[00:09:41.54] spk_2:
deal deal. Yeah, but that’s, that’s what I throw out is, is defining a win and challenging nonprofit leaders to really define that fundamental unit of impact and what’s the pile of units that they want to achieve in 3-5 years.

[00:10:25.84] spk_1:
And that leads beautifully. The one that I would like to talk about, which is the law number three, which is, who already know who you are when you’re winning. Which to me sounds, I mean it’s, it’s, uh, well, not to me, it sounds like, but it’s your, you say it, it’s, it’s, it’s the values. What do you, what does, what does your, what does your organization stand for? Uh, you know, at the core, aside from what it wants to do, what does it stand for And you know, this stuff off the top of that, you know, you don’t need to refer to your encyclopedia of the 40 laws. You know, this, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna stump you, I’m not out to stump you and uh, you wrote a book, come on.

[00:13:26.74] spk_2:
You know, I’m 100% with you. And um, what I, what I don’t say clearly in the book, but what it is worth mentioning here is these first four chapters, these first four laws or what I call the four questions and whenever I work with nonprofits kind of in a consultative basis, um, I love to kind of have this be one of the early conversations I have with them. And it’s a little bit of a different way of getting at the sort of age old in some ways tired and boring mission vision values strategy that we always hear about. I mean I came into my work with nonprofits wanting to sort of breathe some life some new life into those four things because it’s, it is, it’s easy to kind of have our sort of eyes roll back and just kind of get that glassy eyed look when the old mission vision values strategy conversation comes up. But the four questions that I throw out there are, why do you exist? What is winning? Who are you when you’re winning And how do you win? And that’s answering those. It gets to the right destination in a bit of a different way. In a way that involves people and results in an answer frankly that that’s different than just having the, the normal way that you might go about finding out what your mission vision values strategy are. The third question. Who are you when you’re winning is actually a way to get out the values of your organization and asking it in a who based way. It really unlocks some interesting thinking when I work with nonprofits. Um, one workshop that I love to do is actually Having six sticky flip charts posted around the wall of a room and asking the nonprofit to write down Name three men and three women in your organization could be volunteers, could be founders, could be staff write their name at the top of each one of the flip charts. So you’ve got these six flip charts around the room. Uh, Susan’s name goes on the top of one, jerry’s name goes to the top of the second and on around the room. And then everybody who’s participating in the workshop goes around the room with a flip chart marker and writes down everything they can name about the attributes of those people. What is it about them that makes them such an incredible embodiment of the nonprofit and by the end of the exercise, everyone’s crying. Everyone’s excited. Everyone’s thrilled about how great this organization is. But what’s what’s truly amazing is what what each of those words represents is a clue as to the values of the organization. Those words are who the organization is when it’s winning. And from those you can distill out what are the 5-7 Values of the organization? Having looked at the people of the organization 1st And then developing a check question for each, for each person to ask in a first person away for a moment to moment. AM I living out each one of these 5-7 values.

[00:13:47.34] spk_1:
I love this idea. That idea of starting with the people that embody the organization then what is it about those people? And then you find the commonalities across those. You said you do it with six. Uh, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s great insight.

[00:14:19.14] spk_2:
I like that. And it really, I mean it’s, it’s something I stumbled upon while working at a church, uh, some time ago. And what’s, what’s really neat about it is it avoids the trap of values that so many nonprofits fall into that, you know, they, they think about what’s gonna look good on a plaque or what’s gonna look good in the lobby or what’s gonna impress donors. What you’re actually doing is working from the bottom up and what you’re actually doing and who you actually are as an organization when you’re at your best and make and letting, letting the people doing the work as you say, um, speak to you about what the values really are.

[00:14:25.54] spk_1:
Now can those six people be in the room like, so can I go to my own flip chart and vote for myself and say charming, brilliant, funny. You know, can I vote for myself? My own my own flip chart

[00:14:37.84] spk_2:
only. You tony would ask a question like that. Of course. Yeah. Maybe we’d limited to three words on your own chart, but why not? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:14:48.64] spk_1:
And I can I can suggest adjectives for others to put onto my charger?

[00:14:53.09] spk_2:
Yes. Yes. Not happy about the adjectives that others use. but, but yes, it’s, it’s honesty. As long as honesty is in the room totally. Fair game.

[00:16:42.44] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah. But I’d like to lobby for my flip chart to be the longest and most effusive. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. You’re 2022 communications plan lots of projects in there. Lots of writing. Which of those writing projects can you outsource to free up staff time to devote to the work that can’t be outsourced? Is your communications team too small for all they have to produce. Do they seem overworked and under resourced pity, pity their communications team. You can get them help. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to the 40 laws of nonprofit impact. You just have to get the book because we can’t talk about all 40 laws of nonprofit impacts. Not possible. We’re gonna skip around a little bit. So I’d like to talk about, you’re, you’re number six law give to gain, which reminds me of a, of a networking organization that I was in. In fact one of your, it’s either your footnote or one of your resources at the end of that law cites the is a book. I think I think it’s a resource you give by the, the founder of the organization. I was in Ivan Ivan Misner. Uh, the organization is business network international bien. I, I used to be in a B and I chapter in new york city. So, and he and the the uh, I guess so I suppose tagline of the organization was givers gain.

[00:17:19.24] spk_2:
I, I too am a B and I member. So I’m with you there and I am, I am even now, yeah, I’m a member of Gosh, it’s got to be one of the largest chapters in the U. S. Its 82 members. Can you imagine 82 members and a B and I chapter? Um, but for, for our listeners, um, I would say that that be and I is, is just incredible for nonprofits and they might have a deal these days about joining for free. So, uh, we can, that’s another topic. Another conversation. But yeah,

[00:17:54.34] spk_1:
just to just to put a little finer point on it if you have B. N. I. Business network and network, not networking. This network international if you have B and I chapters in your town. Uh, there is a uh, even though I’m not no longer remember, but I’ve been asked for by a couple of chapters who know me. Uh, each chapter is allowed one free nonprofit seat in its chapter. So you don’t have to pay the annual membership to join a B and I chapter. And it could be a very good resource. I, I found it very good for my business derek. You obviously find it good for your business, otherwise you wouldn’t be a member

[00:18:34.84] spk_2:
Of 100%. And the reason I recommend it to nonprofits is imagine 32 in my case, 80 individuals in your local area from all different professions, each with their own networks being a permanent week over week advocate for your nonprofit and your mission. Um, it’s almost like a ready made Salesforce marketing force, um, for, for your cause and for those nonprofits that I know that have been in B and I for three plus years, all of their volunteers, many of their donors, those who actually helped run their galas and events. A lot of that energy comes from from their B and I chapter so strongly recommended you

[00:18:52.24] spk_1:
Just did the purpose and overview portion of a weekly meeting at B&I was a member for 13 years in New York City. The only reason I left is because I moved to North Carolina. That’s the only reason. All right. So let’s talk about giving the game and, and, and I hope you’ll weave in vulnerability and

[00:21:23.54] spk_2:
generosity please. Absolutely. Yeah. So giving to gain is this idea that, um, if you, if you end up taking the approach with your non profit, not just to your beneficiaries, I think we all would say that with our nonprofit missions, we’re here to give to, you know, those who are the recipients of whatever our mission is. If we’re out to eradicate human trafficking. Um, you know, we’re are beneficiaries were giving to society by making sure that survivors are able to be restored. And uh, and that that those who are our victims are able to be pulled out. You know, of course, we’re giving to the beneficiaries of our organizations. It’s a little bit of a reach though, and maybe a bit of a new concept to think about giving to our board members, to our staff, to our volunteers, uh, to our prospective donors, to our existing donors. Everyone we interact with, um, in our organization. Um, we have the ability to do one of three things with them to either entertain, educate or empower. And those three things we can do with with every single person that we touch day in and day out. Whether it’s an email, a phone call, face to face interaction, giving needs to be the passion of every non profit leader. Um, and you mentioned vulnerability and generosity. Those are two of the main main components of how you can be a giver, vulnerability. Certainly in terms of, you know, approaching interactions in a way that, uh, that shows that you’re human. Um, I think authenticity is probably one of the most overblown, overused words. And, you know, there’s a dark side to authenticity in terms of, you know, just being a burden on everyone you come in contact with and and that’s not what we mean by vulnerability. What we mean really, actually is, is just showing that you have flaws, uh, that you’re someone who’s prone to mistakes, admitting those mistakes, showing your words and and letting the other person know that you’re human. Um, generosity. Uh, and really curiosity goes along with this as well. Is is training yourself to seek out ways to give, to look forward. You know, what is it that this person sitting across from me needs the most. I’m looking at you right now on zoom tony and I said I could see you could use some wall hangings. You know the walls behind you looking a little bare. So maybe I’ll send you something to hang on the wall here at some point. Just kidding. But

[00:21:42.54] spk_1:
I have my, I have my high, high hi tech art deco. Well not art deco, but uh, postmodern Hewlett Packard printer.

[00:21:49.68] spk_2:
It is, yeah, that, that is a, that is a nice printer back there. But, but hey, maybe maybe we could use a little bit more more on the wall. But you know what in every interaction. So there you go. Yeah.

[00:22:07.64] spk_1:
You recognize, I just tipped my camera, my screen up So that Derek could see, do you recognize that comic character?

[00:22:09.03] spk_2:
Uh, it’s a, what’s his sad, sad sam or sad. That’s beetle, that’s beetle bailey, beetle bailey. Okay, that’s assigned assigned original. Whoa.

[00:22:28.94] spk_1:
From, from mort walker. The uh, so well I’m, I’ve date myself all the time. I’m 60 years old. So I remember beetle Bailey in the comics, United States army

[00:23:15.54] spk_2:
was I know I noticed that beetle bailey. So here we go guys, this for our listeners. We, we can see here, I have a clue now of something that might be of value to tony in the future. Right. Just by looking at as well, taking a little interest, having a little curiosity. I, there may come a time here in the next month or two where here comes in the mail, a little cartoon for uh, for Tony to hang on his wall. Um, that can remind him of spare non profit solutions and keep him encouraged as he goes throughout his day. Just giving to gain, that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about is having just that little bit more curiosity than is common being that rare person who looks for ways to give and then the law of reciprocity pick kicks in where that person is. Uh, just naturally it’s the psychology of human nature is going to look for ways to give back

[00:24:04.04] spk_1:
somewhere in the book. You, you reckon you recommend. Uh, I think it’s two people a day, do something special for two people a day. And also try to uh think about how you can give something small to the people that you do interact with each day like you’re describing. You know, you don’t, you don’t need to send me any comics or I won’t reject it if you do. But, but uh, so you just, you, you got to get the book. You gotta get the book for the full breadth of the, the wisdom and the ideas. Um, and yeah, vulnerability. I, you know, too many people think vulnerability is a, is a sign of weakness. I think it’s a sign of confidence and strength that you’re, you’re confident and strong enough to to share your real self again without wearing your heart on your sleeves as you suggested, you know, and burdening people, but without not going that far. But vulnerability, I think is a sign of confidence and strength.

[00:24:24.84] spk_2:
It is, and it’s the, it’s, it taps into to the power of humor. I mean, I think one of the least mentioned and most underrated characteristics of leadership and impact for that matter is humor. Um, if you can make fun of yourself at the beginning of any talk that you give or fundraising conversation or uh, podcast that you joined, um, humor is uh, is one of the most disarming endearing things that you can do as a fundraiser and as a nonprofit leader. So vulnerability is a big part of that.

[00:25:16.94] spk_1:
I think I, I appreciate what you said about humor. Thank you. Um, I’ll leave it there. Said I believe. Well said, um, let’s talk about assembling if we could put these couple together assembling your dream team and running with achievers of character. You like the, the dream team to be uh productive. You talk about productive passion.

[00:26:16.04] spk_2:
Yes, absolutely. It’s from the very introduction. When I start to talk about talent. Uh and talent is one of the, He kind of red threads that kind of runs throughout all 40 laws of nonprofit impacts. Um, if I could wave a magic wand and wish anything on the nonprofit world today be different than the way it is. It’s that every nonprofit leader would become talent obsessed and I don’t use that word lightly. Uh you know, I one of the wonderful things about nonprofit leaders is what big hearts they have, not just for the causes that they serve, but but also for the people that are around them. Uh the flip side of that big hearted coin though is that we can unfortunately tolerate around us. Uh those whose talent profile may not be the best that would actually contribute to the advancement of our mission.

[00:26:22.10] spk_1:
Good enough. You know, you caution against making hires that are good enough,

[00:28:17.04] spk_2:
good enough hires. You got it. Yeah, I know it. When I, when I use the term talent obsessed, it is going uh more than 10 deep through a talent pool. When you put something out on indeed you see uh somebody on paper who looks like they’re good, they get in an interview, They answer some questions well and suddenly there in the nonprofit, well what you just did in in letting that person in the door without, you know, going deeper into the talent pool and doing your due diligence and giving that person a trial run of actually doing the work before they get the offer letter. Um, all of these things will greatly enhance not just your non profit in the near term, but they’re gonna impact the trajectory of your nonprofit organization way over the long term. So all the way back to your question about assembling your dream team is you’re always keeping an eye out for those people in your midst. Whether it’s just a volunteer who comes in to help with something, you see them approach their work of, you know, putting folding up the papers, putting them in the envelope, stamping them, sending them out. You’re watching. And there’s something that caught your eye while they were doing that work. The spirit that they brought to the work. The fact the way they’re interacting with the rest of your staff and the other volunteers. Just the vibe that they have their confidence. Um, you’re, you’re keeping an eye out for those kinds of talent, rock stars. And when you see that you actually make an effort to start to draw them into your dream team. This could be the case with prospective board members with major donors. Anything that might touch your nonprofit, you’re always trying to keep an eye out for who is going to be that inner circle that joins you to take this work into the future. Um,

[00:28:27.14] spk_1:
derek you when you were talking about and, and that may apply for volunteers as well. Maybe maybe moving someone from volunteer to volunteer leadership.

[00:28:31.84] spk_2:
It absolutely does

[00:28:36.17] spk_1:
clears the, what do you say the productive, those were productive passion

[00:28:42.14] spk_2:
mentioned

[00:28:44.16] spk_1:
10, 10 deep in an, in an interview process. What did you mean by that?

[00:29:56.84] spk_2:
So I I think we, we nonprofit leaders can have a tendency busy as they are to give up a little bit too early or to, uh, to settle, you know, for someone who is, you know, looks good on paper and you know, let’s give them a try in the role and start paying them. And the thought is, we can always go back on that decision. Well, No, it’s, it’s not easy to uh, change someone’s life to give them a job and they get into the role and then suddenly there’s an inertia into the thing where it, it is difficult to go back on that decision. Why not take an extra month or two and go 30 deep or 50 deep into the indeed pool something I I did recently with a higher inspire nonprofit solution was that was actually create a google sheet that has multiple tabs that actually gave them real work to do that they would be doing if they came into the role in my organization. That’s before the interview. Even so I haven’t even talked to this person yet. I see the indeed resume and they’re getting a link from me to a customized google sheet for them to go through and do the actual work that they would be doing within sparrow then and only then when they’ve completed the sheet and I’ve seen that they have the grit and the intelligence and the mental equipment and uh, the, the ingenuity

[00:30:07.14] spk_1:
also the commitment,

[00:30:08.87] spk_2:
the commitment

[00:30:09.72] spk_1:
you’re asking for, you’re asking for a time commitment before you’ve even interviewed them.

[00:30:36.94] spk_2:
I can’t tell you Tony how many, I can’t tell you Tony how many people I thought were rock stars that I sent this google sheets and they never even got a third of the way through the thing. And that told me good thing. I didn’t waste my time, you know, interviewing speaking with them. You wouldn’t believe how many nonprofit leaders don’t do. This is so yeah, this this easy step of just having them do the work. And yeah, this is part of being talent obsessed. And I commend it to every nonprofit leader

[00:30:50.24] spk_1:
and you’re standing by that. Even in today’s labor constrained market where a lot of people have left. Uh, it’s harder to, it’s harder to find people. You’re, you stand by the talent obsession. Even in the current labor market,

[00:31:05.14] spk_2:
I stand by it even more so I stand by it even more. So yeah, it’s no higher is better than a bad hire and whether that’s, that takes two months or six months. Um, you get the right people into your organization. This goes for board seats by the way. Um, even more so, But yes, you take the time that you need to get the right person in the role, especially in this talent constrained environment.

[00:33:03.24] spk_1:
It’s time for tony steak too. How long has planned giving been on your to do list? I can help you get it off The 50% off planned giving accelerator. It’ll never be cheaper. It’s never, never going to be less than this. 50% off. It ends next week February 7th. You can join the february class. The class runs for six months. Your commitment is an hour a week for six months and we will launch your planned giving program together. You get 50% off. There are still some slots left. A generous donor has agreed to pay half the tuition for 10 nonprofits and there are still spots left. If you’d like to get yours, you can send me an email, tony at tony-martignetti dot com. If you want info on planned giving accelerator, that’s at planned giving accelerator dot com. Let me know you want to get planned giving off your to do list. It’s never going to be easier. I’m putting it right in your lap. I hope you’ll be with me. That is tony steak too. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the 40 laws of nonprofit impact with Derek Timmerman that that makes me think of your Law # 11, which is higher with ruthless selectivity.

[00:34:27.24] spk_2:
That’s it. Yeah. And that’s, that’s kind of the thesis of the last, you know, five ish minutes of what we’ve been discussing, um, hire your staff with ruthless selectivity. Absolutely. But that goes for, uh, for the board as well. Um, uh, it’s, it’s a regrettable feature of the nonprofit landscape these days that so many board members are brought in, um, on kind of what you’re doing us a favor type thing is please please please join our board and we desperately need, you know, people with your skills. Um, oh, you’re an accountant. Oh, we need a treasurer for our board. Please join. Um, it’s not gonna be that much of a commitment. Oh man. It drives me crazy. tony It’s got to go. The other direction is, Yeah, this is, this isn’t, this is an 18, this is a varsity team. Um, we’re not sure if you’re going to be right for the board. I like that you have an accounting background. That is something that we could use, but that means nothing to us. Uh, if if you’re not willing to put in eight hours a month of time and energy and effort and have a purple passion for, for this nonprofit’s mission. So we’ll see. Um, but, but we, we hope it works out. But, but let’s do the dance and see where this goes to see if you might be, might have what it takes to join our board. That makes all the difference.

[00:34:33.54] spk_1:
You highly value personal referrals to folks, folks that are already close to the organization recommending,

[00:35:14.24] spk_2:
Oh yeah. And I’m enthralled by these examples like Zappos who have come out and said we’re not going to do job descriptions anymore. How cool is that to say that we’re not going to go the traditional route of just putting out job descriptions. Uh, and job postings out on the internet for all to see. We know what we need and we have great people. So we’re gonna trust those people to, to spread the word about the roles that we need and, and get those people into into a situation where they can interview with us, where they can go through some scenarios to see how they do kind of in the work itself. And yeah, we’re just gonna do this by word of mouth. That’s a, it’s a cool model and it’s working for him

[00:35:40.94] spk_1:
interesting. I am not aware of that, but I could see the value. It’s um, alright, it’s groundbreaking. Good. Yeah. I like, I like people who, uh, think outside, you know, just think differently. I don’t like outside the box, but just think just think differently and, and, and try it. You know, if they don’t end up getting enough applicants to their jobs, then then they can find another way they can pivot and, and think of something else that’s, that’s not just a typical job description on, on a job board

[00:36:32.73] spk_2:
and yeah. And I know that there’s probably listeners right now thinking I’m a I’m a tiny nonprofit. It’s just me, right, It’s I’m the executive director and that’s it. So derek, I get it. But where do I even begin with this? And I would say to the, to that person, just as a way of encouragement, uh it’s gonna take a lot of effort to get those 1st 123 rock stars aligned with you. But take comfort that it gets easier, the more that you build this dream team, the easier it gets to just add that incremental next person. So put in the effort, put in the work as slow as it feels to find that one that 1st, 2nd, 3rd dream team member and you’re gonna watch it get easier as time goes on.

[00:36:51.33] spk_1:
You also have advice about firing fast, letting people go when it’s not working out, Don’t, don’t invest more, cut your losses. Move on.

[00:37:32.33] spk_2:
Yeah. This is something I learned from my Mackenzie days, honestly from my working with Fortune 500 companies. When we would do these Mackenzie surveys of C. E. O. S and C suite leaders about the biggest regret that they have in their professional life. It was moving too slowly on poor performers, uh letting that extra six months or a year or two years or more go by. Uh just hoping that things would change and feeling like, you know, putting too much stock in what professional development could achieve. I do believe strongly that that people can improve and change. But there there is a base level of capacity uh to continuously improve. And if if you don’t notice that that is their uh the best thing that you can do for your organization and your mission is to act quickly on poor hiring decisions.

[00:38:12.22] spk_1:
I think a lot of C. E. O. S. Consider that an admission and an embarrassing admission of of a mistake. If I if I fire the person too quickly then it’s obvious that I shouldn’t have hired them in the first place. And now I’m admitting that I’ve made a mistake but that goes back to vulnerability, you know checking your ego at the door uh and just being confident enough to admit that you did make a mistake.

[00:39:24.92] spk_2:
It’s the gambler’s it’s it’s it’s the age old gambler thing. I was in Vegas once. I know that surprises you Tony, I know that you don’t think of me maybe as a Vegas guy, but I’m sitting at the roulette table. There you go. Yeah I’m sitting at the roulette table and uh this guy next to me has a confident look on his face and he put some money down on on red and he loses. Uh and he puts double that amount on red and I can I can see where this story’s going, I’ve seen this movie before, I feel bad for him but he puts double on red and he loses again and with each time that he puts money on red, he doubles it and he keeps getting this worse and worse, more concerned look on his face To the point where he’s lost six times and I can tell by the look on the guy’s face, he’s about to put his kids a big chunk of his kid’s college fund on red. It’s just, yeah, it’s awful. But this is what we do when it comes to bad hires all the time and I would just say walk away from the table and, and, and, and go do something else.

[00:39:31.72] spk_1:
Do you have advice to? And uh Law # 14 About using freelancers when, when, while you’re sleeping?

[00:42:02.00] spk_2:
Yeah man, it’s, it’s so exciting to be in uh, an entrepreneurial role like spare nonprofit solutions for nonprofit leaders that are small or mid sized to be in these roles. I mean Even more so than 10 or 15 years ago, we have platforms available to us today to access uh incredibly talented, fluent English speakers in the Philippines in India, you know, any country, even in the us who are willing to do incredible work for organizations while we sleep. These are called freelancers and the the two platforms, I’ll give three actually the three platforms I use most when it comes to freelancers are fiber Up work and 99 designs And imagine in 99 designs case you need a logo, you need a a new label design for something, you need a poster or a one pager. You can go in 99 designs and start a contest and have freelancers from all over the world designers who are incredibly talented competing to win your contest. So it could be $99 it could be 1 99. But rather than go out and going out and hiring a design firm, you can have this contest where freelancers are actually competing to win, you’re giving them feedback. So they’re actually doing revisions right there. So all of these folks are working for you and then by the end of it you’ve got an incredible product that you can, that you can then take into your nonprofit work. I’ve used this in list building all the time right now as well as you and I are speaking tony I’ve got three freelancers around the world building, uh, lists with email addresses, phone numbers, prospects. Um, and, and I know that here in a day or two, I’ll be able to look at those and use those for my, my marketing efforts. That’s what I mean by b have always have something happening while you’re sleeping. Um, These freelancers could be doing great things for you for $5 an hour, maybe less. Um, and you can even pay them for the actual project itself. I do 25 cents a row for my excel spreadsheet for my google sheets that I have them fill out for, for leads. So I don’t know. I’m not sure if your listeners could, could use 25 cents a road to have a fundraising sheet to growing while you’re doing other things. But, but I found it’s, it’s incredibly helpful to my work.

[00:42:14.70] spk_1:
And what are the three sites that you use again? Five? Er, I know I’ve used that one. So Fiverr is one

[00:42:20.74] spk_2:
Driver with two Rs. So if you are are up work is the 2nd and 99 designs is the third for anything visual or involving design, 99 designs is incredible.

[00:42:50.90] spk_1:
Let’s talk about some, uh, some of your laws that are intrinsic to, to the, to the person, like unleashing your unique strengths and and avoiding that. Focus on

[00:45:07.49] spk_2:
weaknesses. Sure, yeah, this is this is so near and dear to my heart that I wasn’t Mackenzie for six years and the second three years was doing a people strategy on Mackenzie itself. So it was actually, we did it. We launched an engagement not to serve an external client, but to say we’re going to sharpen the saw within this consulting firm. So we’re gonna do a strategy on how to be the preeminent place for the world’s most incredible talent and one of the main work streams that we ended up coming up with. Um and this is all research based, is making Mackenzie a strengths based organization and I took that to heart so much that I’ve taken it everywhere. I’ve gone to work with nonprofits as well. Because the thesis is this is that all of us came up in elementary school, middle school, high school and college with this grading system and the best you can get on most assignments is what 100, right? Yeah, that’s that’s the best score you can get. And uh That was the top thing that, that we could achieve. And anything less than that was points were deducted. You lose two points here, five points. They’re 10 points there if it’s late, that’s -10 or 20 or something. But, but that’s how we learned. What success is is not making mistakes. So here we are dumped into adult life and we’ve got this paradigm of, that’s that’s what success is. So we feel like job to job, task to task our goal is to what eradicate as many mistakes from our work as we can, is get rid of the weaknesses. Well, come to find out that the research shows that you can really only take a weakness From a, you know, a negative 10 to maybe a negative four. It’s never gonna stop being a weakness when it comes to being intrinsically, you know, who you are, the essence of who you are. Um, I will never be a really great gregarious, um, the person who can work a room, you know, that you

[00:45:08.04] spk_1:
say you say in the book a few times, that you’re an

[00:46:11.48] spk_2:
introvert, introvert? Absolutely, 100%. But um so I’m only gonna do so much to mitigate that weakness. If I if I spent all my time trying to to play the extroverts game, I would never be able to leave the impact on the world that I otherwise would if I had focused on my strengths. Because the research, same research also shows that you can take a plus 10 with the same effort or much easier than you took the negative 10 to a negative four. You can take a plus 10 to a plus 40 in terms of your strengths. So what am I going to focus on as far as leaving my impact on the world? I’m a pretty good writer. So rather than focus on going into all of these networking events and working a room, I still need to show up, I still need to do that. Um and but if I have a certain amount of poker chips to put on a certain place, I’m gonna put those poker chips on my strengths and make sure that weaknesses aren’t holding me back, but focus most of my time on my strengths and bring people around me that have strengths in areas that I have weaknesses.

[00:46:21.48] spk_1:
The man claims he’s not a gambler, but now that’s the second uh that’s the second gambling metaphor. We’ve been through the roulette table, we’ve been to the poker table, I don’t know, maybe you’ll be upped the stakes, will go to baccarat, We’ll see, we’ll see where we

[00:46:33.27] spk_2:
go. Something tells me you’d be pretty dangerous in Vegas. tony may be dangerous

[00:47:08.38] spk_1:
to myself, Dangerous to my future and my retirement. Yeah, that that’s the danger. The house, the house has nothing to worry about. Yeah, that’s another one that’s individual. Um Mhm. Mhm. Eat last, eat last and get dirty. And this is a little controversial. This is talking about thinking differently. Uh This is not a not a mainstream uh Strategy Law Law number 19, but let’s talk about it, Eat last and get dirty.

[00:50:19.26] spk_2:
Yeah, something I do in the book is kind of chunk up each of these laws into sort of themed groups. And this one is in the laws of leadership. And it was I benefited although I didn’t appreciate it at the time. I benefitted while at West Point um being the recipient of an unending parade of speakers that would come before us. Uh It was Robinson Auditorium and we would go down as a class or as a whole school, only 4000 cadets in the whole of West Point. Um and we would gather in these auditoriums and once or twice a week, incredible leadership speakers from around the world would come and share their wisdom and a commonality that we’d find over and over again is this leadership attributes of selflessness of being the last to eat the last to leave the last to benefit when your soldiers. Uh in the context of West Point training, they come first soldiers first leaders last. And that finds a way of seeping into your soul after enough of those talks. Uh, and you get out and in the two combat tours, I was in Iraq. Uh that was something that you know, that I took to every unit that I lead is this idea that you know, they eat first, they get to use the phone first to call home, they get to use the computer first to send the email. And this leadership attribute is something that really endears those who serve alongside you. Uh they really come to to follow you into anything if they know that that’s the leadership um approach that you take. So in the nonprofit world, what what does that look like? Uh it really looks like, you know, being the leader who puts staff volunteers board the mission first. And it’s radical to see when you see it. It’s incredibly rare, as you say. Um, in the book, I think I used the example of from one of my favorite books by Stephen Press field of King Leonidas in Gates of Fire. Uh if if I could only recommend one leadership book and I give away cases of the thing. Um it’s it’s this book, Gates of Fire and there’s a critical moment when everyone is squabbling around what to do about this wall, there’s a debate where do we put it? How high do we make it? What materials do we use? And the old king just begins to pick up one block at a time and set it on top of the other and everyone looks on and says what what what is he doing? Well, he’s just beginning to to build the wall. He doesn’t say a word. He just leads by example and starts to do it and suddenly everyone had a shame says what what are we waiting for? Let’s go. And everyone starts to build it alongside him and there he is. Even to the end, long after others have have tired out. He’s still they’re still building. So that that to me is the image of leadership that I try to carry with me. Don’t I wouldn’t say I’m always successful but that’s the ideal.

[00:51:14.86] spk_1:
You do say people will follow a strong and sacrificial figure who leads by example will find a point on it. Um but then you know it goes far. You know, you talk about work martyrdom and that’s why I said this one is certainly I think is is controversial, controversial polemic. Um you martyrdom. Mm hmm. Not not taking vacation. You know you you open that law. I think with a description of what most people would say is someone overcommitted. Uh maybe even obsequious to their to their supervisor. Uh show it feels they have to be the first one in the office and the last one every day etcetera and then you you you encapsulated as as work martyrdom. But then you you praise that.

[00:53:43.85] spk_2:
Yeah, so this is hopefully where I don’t lose, lose you and certainly not our listeners. Absolute. Yeah, no, this is one of the more controversial parts of 40 laws. Um I’ve noticed a trend recently uh just in uh as you know, a lot of the well intentioned writings and books around mental health in the workplace um have tried, you know, for for a long, long time to get people to recognize that, you know, it’s necessary to be a whole person and a lot of that is is very useful and well meaning. But as in all things I believe the pendulum can swing too far in one or the other direction. And it’s my humble opinion that the pendulum may have swung a little bit too far in the direction of uh trying to build a padded room around the workplace of there is a little bit of a manby pamby uh vibe to a lot of what’s coming out these days when it comes to work is don’t don’t work too too hard now and you need to make sure that you have the proper balance in place. And you know, again, all well intentioned, but what it’s done is is ignore the story after story that I put in the book. Every chapter begins with a key leader, the real story of a nonprofit leader who um if they had taken that advice would not have achieved near what they did in their lives, uh with the impact that they did, um to include some of the foremost figures like dr martin Luther King, Jr who was flying around all over the place during the height of his ministry to achieve what he did. Uh did he back off? Did he take it easy? Did he embrace a work life balance? Um I would say maybe not according to, you know what we’re hearing from a lot of folks these days. So work martyrdom is the term that I give to, you know, the the extreme pendulum swing that says, you know, don’t don’t don’t work too hard, take it easy. Well, I would say that in order to achieve the, the impact on the world that many of these non profit missions would hope to achieve. Yeah, it’s gonna take, it’s gonna take a radical level of work ethic in order to achieve that. A work ethic that would look crazy uh, to maybe some of the folks who are writing these books. So again, I hope I didn’t lose you or too many folks with with that little screen, but that’s where I land

[00:55:06.94] spk_1:
invited it. Uh, I well, we’ll leave it there. Let let folks decide what what what what what the balance is, what’s appropriate. Let’s wrap up with one another one. I’m so such a generous spirit today. I don’t know why it’s uh it’s upsetting me that, uh, not at all, but let’s wrap up with one that you’d like to talk about that we haven’t talked about yet. Um, yeah, you could, you could you pick a law that we, we if if if you need a little guidance, like we didn’t talk about anything related to laws of engagement or laws of operating. Um, we didn’t talk about laws of diversity. And the only reason I left that out intentionally is because I anticipate a lot of conversations coming up Around diversity from the nonprofit technology conference where I’m gonna be interviewing 25 or 30 of their speakers that’s coming up in March. And I know we’re gonna have a lot of guests talking about diversity. So that’s why that’s why I didn’t leave. That’s why I deliberately left out your, You’re four laws on diversity, but you want to please.

[00:56:53.33] spk_2:
Well, there’s, there’s one, there’s one within the laws of diversity that that is not going to touch on the nose to what you’re going to be talking about, you know, in later podcasts and in the conference. So if if I may be so bold that the one that I think is Is a way to end on a high note as well is celebrate. And elevate law 18 celebrate and elevate. And it it’s, uh, it touches on diversity, but it’s, it’s broader than that. Um, you know, we’ve talked about lots of things that, you know, uh, nonprofits can improve on. But I’d like to end on a high note just by saying that your nonprofit, whoever you are, whatever you’re doing, uh there’s things that are happening every single day that are worth celebrating. So I would I would say that, you know, the best gift you can give your non profit is a great board of directors. The next best gift a close second is a culture of celebration within the walls of your nonprofit. There are many things that are happening all the time that are worth celebrating. If your emails are loaded with celebration, if you’re if you catch your staff or volunteers doing things well and make a huge deal of it and are lavish in your praise of them. Uh and celebrating them. If you’re starting out each of your staff meetings with a celebratory moment of something that’s that’s going great in your organization. Um that’s what I would say is if you can give your nonprofit a culture of celebration where you’re constantly catching things going well, giving voice to them, being vocal about them and recognize them recognizing those things in silly, exciting ways. Uh maybe even to the point of literally having a bell in your nonprofit workspace where you’re ringing the bell all day long. Uh that is the kind of nonprofit, I love, I’d love to be involved in, and I’m sure you would as well. So that’s what I would say is is find ways to, to develop a culture of celebration within your nonprofit

[00:57:25.53] spk_1:
Derek Timmerman, D E R I K. Founder of Sparrow Nonprofit solutions. The book is the 40 laws of nonprofit impact. Derek, thank you so much. What a

[00:57:27.15] spk_2:
pleasure. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you tony

[00:58:08.33] spk_1:
next week, influencing young America to act with Derrick Feldmann. You see how the show is planned out to all the, how all the derricks come together. This this does not just happen, this is this is takes production skill. I can’t even begin to explain that the time that goes into uh coordinating the derricks to be together. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is

[00:58:35.13] spk_0:
Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for December 6, 2021: Purpose Driven Marketing

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Stu Swineford: Purpose Driven Marketing

Stu Swineford reveals the principles and pillars of purpose driven marketing that will keep your donors engaged and wanting to support your mission. He’s co-author of the ebook, “Mission Uncomfortable.”

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:45.54] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with scabs if you invested me with the idea that you missed this week’s show purpose driven marketing stew. Swinford reveals the principles and pillars of purpose driven marketing that will keep your donors engaged and wanting to support your mission. He’s co author of the book, Mission uncomfortable On Tony’s take two planned giving accelerator were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is purpose driven marketing. Yeah, it’s my pleasure to welcome for his first time on nonprofit radio stew Swinford. He is a mountain fellow, cinephile and co founder of Relish Studio, a digital marketing firm that creates conversion focused marketing solutions for nonprofits with Aaron Rixon, he’s co author of the book mission uncomfortable how nonprofits can embrace purpose driven marketing to survive and thrive. He and the company are at relish studio and relish studio dot com. Welcome to nonprofit radios

[00:01:46.65] spk_0:
to well thank you so much for having me on today. tony

[00:02:00.34] spk_1:
pleasure pleasure. Uh we got to take care of the most obvious things first before we get to your book and purpose driven marketing. You’re a mountain fella. So I mean you live in the mountains.

[00:02:17.74] spk_0:
I do. We live up here at about 9000 ft up kind of west of Denver Netherland is kind of the closest biggest town. Um, but live in a little cabin that was built in the 40s here in the woods with my wife and our are slew of pets, which hopefully will not interrupt us today.

[00:02:22.78] spk_1:
That’s okay. We’re very family friendly on a

[00:02:25.12] spk_0:
nice family embracing,

[00:02:28.94] spk_1:
not just family friendly family embracing. So 9000 ft. So you’re so you’re one of those people who follows the uh the high altitude directions on baking?

[00:02:38.34] spk_0:
Absolutely, yeah. Okay. And those are actually mostly geared for Denver, which is about 50 400 ft. So we have to make even more adjustments usually when we’re doing things up here.

[00:02:50.44] spk_1:
And do you need special cars or special equipment on your cars to drive at that altitude?

[00:03:11.34] spk_0:
No, not really. Not really. Everything’s electronically controlled at this point, so you don’t, you don’t have to make too many adjustments. I think an older car or older motorcycles for sure you have to reach it um in order to perform well at higher altitudes, but older ones. Okay. Yeah. Are you

[00:03:17.25] spk_1:
skiing there in the mountain?

[00:03:31.84] spk_0:
Well, not currently. Uh we we don’t have, we got a little bit of snow last week, but it’s mostly gone. Um I believe a basin actually opened last week. So they are skiing up a little higher than we are located. Um And El Dora, which is the local ski area is threatening to open here toward the end of the month, but we’ll we’ll see what happens. It’s been a little bit warm.

[00:03:42.24] spk_1:
Okay, this is uh we’re recording in mid october

[00:03:46.52] spk_0:
Yes, yes. Okay. Okay.

[00:03:48.66] spk_1:
Are you a cross country skier?

[00:04:06.64] spk_0:
I do I know a Nordic ski and backcountry ski. I don’t go to the resorts all that much anymore. I used to be a big resort guy and um I used to ski about 80 days a year. Um and I I would say last year I probably got 20 or 25 days a but it was mostly back country skiing.

[00:04:09.84] spk_1:
Okay. And cinephile. Yeah, I have a favorite director genre.

[00:04:30.54] spk_0:
Well I love the Coen Brothers, they’re probably my favorite directors. Um And I used to write for film threat and I was I was a critic for a short period of time. Um And I just love watching movies and uh that’s something that I enjoy.

[00:04:32.24] spk_1:
Yeah, wonderful. You have a favorite Coen Brothers movie? That’s hard. That’s hard. It’s tough. Maybe asking you a question that I couldn’t answer

[00:05:06.74] spk_0:
myself many of their films um have something to be enjoyed. I would say my go to favorite when people ask is Miller’s Crossing, which was one of their earlier films um starring Gabriel Byrne. And uh it’s just a you know, it’s it’s a it’s a fun little movie but you know, I’ve watched the Big Lebowski. I don’t know how many times and um you know they have a great uh collection and selection of movies for people

[00:05:46.94] spk_1:
o Brother where art thou Burn after reading these are some these are something but Miller’s Crossing that with Gabriel Byrne. I’ve I’ve seen that a few times that I think I might have that one in my collection. I’m pretty discerning about which movies actually purchase physical copies of so that I can watch them when I want to, streaming services decide that they want to have them bond for six months. And I think Miller’s Crossing is in there because that that’s uh it’s an early one but he’s uh he’s a he’s a it’s an interesting gangster um gangster profile

[00:05:48.37] spk_0:
I suppose. Yeah, it’s kind of a gangster movie set in the prohibition era. Um It just has great, great dialogue and uh and it’s you know, it’s not for the whole family for sure, but but it’s definitely a good one if people haven’t checked that one out,

[00:06:03.74] spk_1:
Hudsucker proxy

[00:06:04.70] spk_0:
to great name

[00:06:08.24] spk_1:
that often. But paul newman

[00:06:10.64] spk_0:
uh tim Robbins, tim Robbins. Exactly.

[00:06:29.14] spk_1:
Yeah. The circle, it’s a circle for kids. It’s for kids, you know, circle, you know kids so alright, so coen brothers fans, you will get that, you’ll get that reference if not you can watch the Hudsucker proxy and uh and you’ll get it all right. Um So purpose driven marketing, why don’t we just define this thing. What is this first?

[00:08:35.64] spk_0:
Well purpose driven marketing in our minds is here it relishes um is really marketing that has a goal in mind. And then also we really try to work with purpose focused leaders who have something bigger than just making money in mind for their organization. So whether they’re a 1% for the planet partner or a nonprofit or a B corp um, those are the kinds of people that we really like to work with and, and uh, you know, I sort of, I guess I grew into this over the years, uh, At relish. We started in 2008 and in about 2013, my business partner and I started thinking, Wow, you know, we’re, we have this opportunity as entrepreneurs and business owners to, to really create something different than just uh, an organization or a business that that is here to make money. We can actually kind of mold this in, in our own fashion. And so we started looking for ways to create some giving back here at relish and that was when we joined 1% of the Planet Colorado Outdoor business alliance organizations like that, that colorado non profit association that enabled us to, to start to kind of codify or, or formalize are giving back as well as, you know, really meet and um, and be able to serve those people who are doing a lot more in the world than just, you know, funding, uh, the owners next vacation home or yacht or something like that. Um, in terms of, of conversion focus. However, you know, that’s another piece of the purpose component um, is really making sure that people’s marketing is aligned with a goal and that we’re helping them achieve that goal. So it’s, it’s just a thoughtful way of approaching the whole marketing space um where it becomes, you know, something that you’re investing in. Um it’s not just an expense, it’s something that’s actually creating a return on that investment. Mhm.

[00:08:41.24] spk_1:
And you, you focus a lot on building relationships through purpose driven marketing. How, just as an overview, we’re going to get to that, we’re gonna get to your four pillars, but how do you see purpose driven marketing contributing to relationship building?

[00:10:11.74] spk_0:
Well, we look at marketing is really, that’s all marketing is, is building relationships and really, instead of attempting to sell all the time, um, we see marketing that works as as an opportunity to create a relationship, to build a connection as opposed to just trying to sell something. Um You know, usually in in any kind of transactional relationship, um you have to get to know the person trust like them. Um and then move on to kind of being able to try and, and by and then hopefully people move into the kind of this repeat and refer proportion of their, of their life cycle. Um But ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s all about creating this atmosphere where people, um not only know who you are, but but really get to like you and to trust you in order to uh take that next step, which is to try and to buy your services or your, you know, your organization’s um, uh, benefits that they’re bringing, that you’re bringing to the, to the marketplace and to the nonprofit space in particular. Um, and so that’s that’s kind of how we see marketing is is just really creating opportunities to build upon um interactions and create a really strong, solid relationship with people.

[00:10:27.84] spk_1:
And you take time to, hey, make sure people are not thinking of marketing as a pejorative, you know, that it’s that it’s I don’t know that you use the way, I don’t think you use the word sales. E but you know, you uh you’re you’re making sure people are, are looking at marketing the way you and Aaron are, and not the way, you know, an amazon looks at looks at marketing.

[00:10:44.44] spk_0:
Well, it’s interesting even in the amazon space, but the short answer is yes. But even in the amazon space, they’re trying to create opportunities for um for relationship building. So there is there are some

[00:10:56.86] spk_1:
lessons to be learned from

[00:12:06.84] spk_0:
the Yeah. And that’s how we just kind of see marketing. So whether that’s selling a widget where you have to convince somebody that this is a durable, um, you know, tool that will solve whatever problem it is that they’re trying to solve. Um, you’re you’re always trying to build a relationship there. You’re always trying to create an opportunity for somebody to get to, to know that company, um, understand why they’re doing things and uh, I believe that that this transaction is going to result in a positive, um, outcome. And, and whether that’s a long term kind of approach where you are trying to convince a donor to give, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars to your organization or a very short term relationship where you’re just trying to convince somebody to, I don’t know, buy a soda because they’re thirsty. Um, you know, it is all about creating that, uh, ability and opportunity to, um, for, for people to start to know like, and trust you in that in that connect and um, and convert face of the, of the scenario.

[00:12:33.14] spk_1:
Yeah. Know like, and trust Trust is when you can build trust with folks and uh, then, uh, there are so much more likely to open your, open your messages, uh, follow your calls to action, you know, when there’s trust with the brand and the work, that’s uh, that’s a pinnacle in a relationship.

[00:13:00.84] spk_0:
Yeah. And ultimately relationships are built through interactions over some period of time. And so whether those interactions are, you know, commercials that are aired, um, or emails that are sent and uh, questions that are answered. Um, or even, you know, social media outreach and uh, back and forth when you can create when you can create that interaction, when you can create that, that back and forth, that then solidifies and builds and strengthens strengthens that relationship. And so those are the kinds of things that we help our clients and partners facilitate through marketing.

[00:13:21.94] spk_1:
It’s interesting the back and forth, not just the one way, you know, messages going from us to those, we’re trying to build trust with

[00:13:27.91] spk_0:
a little more

[00:13:29.10] spk_1:
about how it’s how it’s two way communication, not not one way.

[00:15:02.54] spk_0:
Yeah, so that’s actually one of the things we see people, one of the bigger mistakes people make in the social media space is that they use social media as kind of a soap box where they get on and they present their, you know, whatever whatever it is of the day, whether it’s a sales pitch or even a an item of value, but they fail to try to build those relationships. Um and you know, social media is at its core a social component which requires back and forth, which requires um you know, companies and their, you know, they’re the people who are working with them to go out and and create opportunities to start those conversations on social media. So instead of simply going to your particular platform and posting something, um you know, really one needs to be out there um interacting and and commenting and posting on other people’s materials as well as posting on on your own materials and answering questions. Um google reviews is actually a great, another great example of a place where people have an opportunity to create a back and forth, whether that’s a positive review or a negative review that someone is left about your organization. Um, you know, making sure that you answer that and even try to create, you know, opportunities for back and forth. So ask open ended questions. Um, you know, comment on how beautiful that photo was on instagram and then ask them a question about what inspired them to take that or what camera settings they used or you know, whatever the whatever the the thing is that inspires those conversations and and gets people going back and forth, that tends to create those opportunities to build a relationship.

[00:17:41.34] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, content creation, content is king. The medium is the message birds of a feather, flock together. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. So well the first two of those apply, we don’t, we don’t need the birds and the apples, but content content if you need content in the coming year, for for what? For digital, for print for an annual report for some other report to the board content. If you need content for your social channels, they can do all this turn to, they’ll help you hone your messaging. And as far as press, get your messages out in the channels that you’ve heard me talk about like Chronicle of philanthropy new york times, Washington post Detroit, free press etcetera cbs market watch. So content. If you need content for whatever purpose, think about turn to you need help get this off your plate there. The pros they write it, they’ll, they’ll get it off your shoulders because your story, is there mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now, back to purpose driven marketing. Okay. In that spirit, the reason I was attracted to you reached out to you to be a guest is you posted something interesting on linkedin. So I looked a little further in linkedin and you had a phone number that folks could pick up and say, you know, if you want to chat, reach, reach me here, uh, let me chat with the guy, I’m gonna pick up. Sorry, uh, like five minutes after I had read your post and did a little research, I said, I’m gonna talk to the guy. So you created an opportunity for people to reach you. Uh, uh, you know, and I grabbed it and I thought, first of all, it’s very unusual for someone to put a phone number and it didn’t go to google mail. It was your voicemail or google voice. I should say. It was your it was your it was your voicemail. And uh, you know, you called me back and we chatted. So you’re you’re you’re walking, you’re walking your

[00:17:51.84] spk_0:
walk. Well, I hope so. You’re walking your talk, I guess. I hope so. That’s one of the challenges of, of running uh running a marketing agency as we have the cobbler’s kids challenge a lot of the time where we we can do a really good job for our clients. But we tend to uh neglect our own outreach in our own websites and those types of things. I’m happy that that that that actually worked. Um we’ll do this. So yeah, it was great. I’m curious. Which do you remember which post it was that that you found compelling?

[00:18:24.54] spk_1:
No, it was too long ago. Okay. No, it was over a month ago that we first connected. I don’t know if it was about your book, but was it could have been the release. Had your book just come out recently or No,

[00:18:32.95] spk_0:
the book dropped in uh february last. All right

[00:18:48.74] spk_1:
then. I knew you had when I well, I knew you had written a book when I called you because I left you a message saying I’d like to have you on the show and talk about the book. Um I don’t remember. I don’t know. It’s

[00:18:50.19] spk_0:
okay. I was just curious to know if you if you remember what what thing I said that that made you want to pick up the phone. There was you know,

[00:19:14.64] spk_1:
you you know, I think you might have commented on something that I commented on to. Uh and so obviously I appreciated your comment. I think I think it was that I think it was a comment not a post of yours because you weren’t weren’t connected. So I wouldn’t have seen your. Yeah, I think it was I think you commented on something that I commented on.

[00:19:54.94] spk_0:
So so there’s a really great example of of how that relationship building peace can actually function to create another relationship opportunity. Um where you know, if if I were just using my, you know, linkedin platform to to espouse information and hopefully give some value driven stuff you and I never would have actually or it would have been less likely for us to have connected because uh what it took was me going out to someone else’s post and commenting about giving them some more information or saying nice post or whatever it was that I said um that they gave you got me in front of you. So um that’s a really good example of how one can can leverage that power of social media to to expand their network.

[00:20:07.37] spk_1:
It works so be social

[00:20:15.94] spk_0:
exact conversation. It is socially, it’s all about creating conversations. Yes. Let’s

[00:20:16.73] spk_1:
talk about your four pillars of of purpose driven marketing. Why don’t you just give us an overview and then uh and then let’s go in and I, you know, I got some things I want to talk about for each one but

[00:20:28.29] spk_0:
acquaintance

[00:20:29.42] spk_1:
with them first.

[00:23:23.94] spk_0:
Sure. So the four pillars as we see them in in terms of kind of this this client or customer lifecycle um is really starts with attraction. And that’s how do you get people to come to your properties, whether those are your social properties or your website or your storefront, How do you get out there in the marketplace and uh, and enable people to find you? And then we move to the bond phase, which is really the, the next step of that conversation where you’re not only have you brought people in. So you’ve, you’ve created an opportunity for them to find out about you, but now you’re creating this opportunity for them to actually get into the fold to, um, to kind of be part of your inner network. And um, and the connection phase a lot of times requires um, either a value exchange of some, some sort of information. Um, you know, what we’re really trying to do is help build those relationships and help not only, you know, take these people who have now found you and enable them to uh, to have an ongoing relationship, an ongoing conversation created. Um, so that’s kind of that bond phase and then the next phase is kind of this convert phase. And that would be the sails easiest part of this uh kind of system where essentially this is where we get people to either try or buy from you and in the nonprofit space, this would be, you know, getting someone to either, um, you know, really take advantage of something that you’re offering. So if you think about the nonprofit stakeholders, typically there are donors, there are volunteers, There are actual um, recipients of the of the nonprofits benefits. And then, um, you know, there could be kind of sponsors and and people in that frame as well. So how do we get those people to actually take some sort of an action either make a donation, volunteer, some of their time, etcetera. And then in the final phase, which is kind of this inspire phase, um, that’s where we’re trying to get people to either escalate their engagement. So you take a one time donor and get them to become a, you know, a monthly donor. You get someone who perhaps is a monthly donor or maybe as a one time donor and get them to bring their their business in as a corporate sponsor. Um, you get someone to escalate um, and repeat. And then also evangelize for your organization and get out there and really refer you, uh tell people that they should be a part of this organization as well, um or um, or even just shouting it out on social media about, you know, some great volunteer experience that you had. So those are kind of the main four pillars. And again, kind of heard me talk about them in a different framework earlier where, you know, we’re really trying to get people to um, to know like trust tribe. I repeat and refer those are kind of the seven components of those four pillars. Okay,

[00:23:49.64] spk_1:
so before we dive into each of these, these four, but let’s let folks know how they can get your, your ebook mission uncomfortable.

[00:23:52.67] spk_0:
Sure they can, they can download it online. It’s, I decided to not publish it in a printed format at least this current time trying to save some trees. Um, but it is available at mission uncomfortable book dot com.

[00:24:19.54] spk_1:
Okay. And we’ll make sure we, I say that again at the end. So so attract connect bond, inspire when, when we’re, when we’re doing attraction, we’re attracting folks. You talk a lot you and Aaron talk a lot about personas, you’d like to rely on those, explain the value of how they work, what their value

[00:25:50.84] spk_0:
is. Yeah. So persona is, it can also be called an avatar. It’s essentially an ideal audience. So when you start to think about who you’re trying to attract to your organization. Um one of the first things we recommend doing is really doing some exploration in terms of personas and and really getting an understanding of the motivations for your target audience groups, um, what their demographics might look like. Um, you know, what, what makes them tick and why would they want to come. Uh, and, and uh, you know, connect with and participate with your organization. And so when you think of all, there’s usually more than one persona. Um, you know, a volunteer might be a completely different person than a donor for example. Um and and then a recipient of your of your benefits, would you know, potentially be even even different persona. Um So build what you can do is build out as many of these as you think you need to in order to get a feel for who it is that you’re kind of trying to reach a lot of times when we build out personas for our clients and partners, we really create a visual um you know, person that people can wrap their arms around. We name them, we find a stock photo that’s representative of representative of that person. You

[00:25:59.33] spk_1:
go to photos even I’ve heard of naming, giving, giving them names, but you go to photos.

[00:27:58.94] spk_0:
Yeah. Picture somebody. Okay. Yeah. Trying to create as much of uh of something that you can wrap your arms around when you’re talking about this audience group. Um and you know, I would say don’t go overboard, don’t try to overthink it to start because you know, you can get kind of in the weeds with persona development where All of a sudden you have 15 different personas that you’re trying to to reach and it just becomes confusing. So one of the things that we would recommend is just starting simple and just think about, who you know, if you were thinking of an ideal volunteer, just one of them and we know that there are many who would that person be um you know, would they be uh woman between the ages of 35 42 who has um, had a career and now has, you know, maybe has a little bit more free time in that career or perhaps even works for a company that offers uh, you know, matching for volunteer opportunities. Um, does she have Children? Is she married? Does, what does she, what does she look like? Who is this person? And you know, maybe her name is Jill and you can just really start to talk about and think about who Jill is when you are planning your marketing outreach. So does she play and find information and spend a lot of time on facebook or is she more on instagram? Is she out? Um, you know, in certain places in the local community where you can can reach her farmers markets for example, or um, you know, or perhaps other types of, of events where where would you need to go to run into and connect with uh, with Jill and get her to understand who you are and a tractor to your organization. And so it really that persona development really helps you map out your marketing strategy so that you’re not spending a bunch of time trying to attract, you know, boomers by posting on Tiktok.

[00:28:30.34] spk_1:
And when you’ve so identified the the folks that you want to connect with, that, that’s what the purpose of the personas is your identifying different different categories of people you’re trying to to connect with and you, you want to focus on delivering some content for them to connect with. And you have lots of examples of blogs and social networks and podcasts and white papers, etcetera. Talk about, you know, matching the content I guess with with with for your personas.

[00:29:48.04] spk_0:
Yeah. So when we talk about content, we really start with trying to create value exchange here. So this is actually the first transactional piece of the transactional relationship that you’re that you’re attempting to build. Um, the end goal may be to get uh, you know, a donation or get somebody to exchange their time to volunteer with you, which is something of value. But at the onset, um, it’s really about getting into this kind of try um, trust and try phase um, there’s a little bit of the like phase in there as well, but at this point they know who you are now. You’re really trying to get them to like trust and try your organization. So in this phase of the relationship, um, you know, coming up with things that might be beneficial to this person. So for example, um, Leave No Trace is a, is a nonprofit organization that is trying to get people to have a better understanding of how they can interact with our open spaces and natural places more effectively. One of the things that I’ve seen from them in the past are are these great cards that have the leave no trace principles. And and so they’re right there handy. You can have them attached to your pack or in your pocket um that that really give people

[00:30:16.38] spk_1:
presumably you don’t you don’t leave these cards behind at your

[00:30:18.88] spk_0:
campsite. Yes, exactly. These come with you uh the

[00:30:21.61] spk_1:
letter with the card.

[00:31:32.24] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah, but but a, you know, a convert phase, you know, kind of opportunity here might be um either an online version of that card. So people could give, you know, give them their email in order to get this card, get access to this information or even uh, you know, provide your address and they might send you on. I don’t know exactly what leave no trace is doing with these these types of informational items. But that might be uh, you know, a tactic that they could use to get people to feel like there had been a value exchange and just to continue building that relationship and and essentially convert them from a stranger to. Now there’s somebody that you kind of know, um you have some information about them. Uh Now you can actually ask them questions through email. You can ask them to donate. You can ask them, you can, you can escalate that relationship by giving them other items of value. Um that’s where that connect phase comes into play. That then you kind of escalate that uh, into the, into the bond face.

[00:31:39.84] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. so let’s let’s spend a little time with with connecting, you talk

[00:31:40.60] spk_0:
about the I’m sorry, Bond Bond comes first and then the connect

[00:31:44.98] spk_1:
so, you know, in the book, you have a track and then

[00:31:48.57] spk_0:
yes, you’re right, I apologize. Yeah, I got it, I got it all confused. My own,

[00:31:55.75] spk_1:
you are a co author of the

[00:31:56.91] spk_0:
book, right? I am Aaron,

[00:32:03.64] spk_1:
you’re not a ghost writer to the I mean he’s not your ghostwriter? No, you actually did contribute. Okay, so, we can wrap it up right now, if you’re not bona fide, you know, then that’s the end. No,

[00:32:10.31] spk_0:
your bona fide. Okay, so

[00:32:17.14] spk_1:
yeah, so connect um you talked about the consistency principle uh that people like to as you’re connecting to get people to say yes or taken action, say a little about that, I like that consistency principle. Can you define that for me?

[00:34:50.14] spk_0:
Yeah, so the consistency principle is really getting opportunities to to make sure that you’re being um intentional and consistent in your outreach. Um one of the things that we find people do is they tend to go in sprints and they’ll get really excited about about building a relationship or or creating opportunities for outreach and then they’ll do it for a little while and then they’ll drop off for for months at a time and um you know, essentially creating an intention and creating a commitment to uh to outreach and to these activities and then sticking with that is something that we we talk a lot about one of the things that people tend to do is they set their goals too high and they say, okay, I’m gonna, I’m getting all excited about this, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do a blog post a day and uh and then they look at that that goal that they’ve set and they say, I can’t do this and we have this tendency, people have this tendency to think that That missing a goal is a total failure as opposed to, you know, you got part of the way there. Um and so what tends to happen is if we set a great big goal and then we start missing that goal, we think, okay, well, I might as well do nothing because, you know, zero is as big a failure as 75%. So one of the things in terms of goal setting that we really recommend is starting slow, creating an opportunity to create a smart goal, something that you can actually achieve. Um and uh and and start to feel what a wind looks like and then, you know, as you’ve built that consistency, go ahead and elevate that goal a little bit as you as as you get better at it. So I’d much rather see uh one of our clients, um, you know, set a goal of of one blog post a month, if they’re not doing any, let’s do one a month, get good at that until that feels easy. And then then we can talk about doing two a month or, or one a week or even, you know, a couple, a couple of week. Um, but what tends to happen is people get really excited about things and say, I’m gonna, I’m gonna knock this out of the park and then they don’t, they haven’t built those consistency, um, habits and so things kind of fall by the wayside and then they end up doing nothing. But

[00:36:48.53] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two planned giving accelerator. I’m recruiting for the january class right now. If you’d like to join me, like to learn together step by step how to launch planned giving at your non profit planned giving accelerator dot com has all the information that you need. Of course, you could be in touch with me through the site, ask any questions you might have. The course is six months, you’ll spend an hour a week learning how to launch your planned giving program and not only learning from me, learning from your classmates, the other members who are in your class with you. The peer to peer support is phenomenal. The way folks open up, they ask questions about challenges. They’ve got, you know, I haven’t tried everything. So we, it’s open to the, to the class to help each other. I mean, I’ve got my ideas, but everybody’s got theirs too. And you get that peer support, One member says she calls it her safety net playing giving accelerator. So if you’re not doing planned giving or if you have like a more abundant plant giving program, which is really no program, you know, deep down, if you admit that there’s really just not a program. If you want to take a look at plan giving accelerator, I’ll get you going launch your program and grow it between me and your peers. It’s all at planned giving accelerator dot com. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for purpose driven marketing and what’s happening in our relationship as we’re, we’ve moved from a trac to connect what’s happening there.

[00:38:28.22] spk_0:
Yeah. So in that in that attract phase, you’re essentially hanging your, your sign out and saying, hey, we exist, come check this out. And, and then in the connect phase you’re really trying to provide valuable information that enables people to, um, to take an action that gets them kind of deeper into the fold. So that’s one thing about email. People think for example, and particularly the nonprofit space email is an amazing tool. Um, yes, we all get a ton of junk email on a daily basis. And we also get a lot of non junk email but depending upon who your audience is and for non profits a lot of times that audience, particularly in the donor seat are kind of these people in the boomer, um age range, that demographic really still does rely very heavily on email. It’s kind of one of their chief modes of communication. Um They email is one of these places that feels like you have some control over it, you can kind of choose to read it or not read it, you can unsubscribe if you if you would like. So there’s a little bit more of a feeling of control with email and then also um this is a place where people have actually raised their hand. So it’s not just social media where you know maybe you got into somebody’s feed through some algorithm or or magically or got referred in, there’s a sense of people have actually taken an action. So that’s why we find list building and trying to create that connection and trying to get people into your um your your email list is a really valuable um component of this kind of four pillar system.

[00:38:45.72] spk_1:
And then bonding

[00:40:07.11] spk_0:
is next. Yeah bonding is really where your solidifying that relationship and you’re providing ongoing. Again, consistency is key here, ongoing opportunities for value driven uh exchange uh systems within the within the bond phase. So um we talked a little bit about this earlier in terms of creating opportunities to um to share information to share physical items to uh you know to provide people with solutions to their problems and in the nonprofit space this gets a little um a little I guess nebulous, it’s a little hard to figure out how uh to create these types of value exchange opportunities, but this is where mhm there are a few things that go into come into play here. One is if you can create an opportunity to position your nonprofit as kind of the guide in this story where your constituent your donor, your volunteer, even even the people that the beneficiaries are the heroes of the story and you’re just facilitating this opportunity for somebody for a donor to be the hero in this beneficiaries story that then creates this kind of experience in our minds where we we start to see ourselves as the as that hero and um and really feel compelled to continue uh kind of serving that role in that in that kind of relationship.

[00:40:57.51] spk_1:
You have a tip in the book. I think it’s mostly related. Well, no, not not necessarily to websites, but I’ll use the website example you say if some if you pre ask someone, if they want something, you get them to sit and they say yes, then at the next step they’ll be more likely to do the thing that you actually want them to do because they said you sort of you got them in the habit even though it was only one step, one step removed. You got them in the habit of saying yes, so they’re more likely to do the real thing that you want. Can you flesh that out a little bit? It was an interesting yeah strategy.

[00:41:10.11] spk_0:
It seems counterintuitive. I think that most people who have studied marketing have heard they reduce the number of clicks to purchase for example,

[00:41:13.22] spk_1:
don’t yeah, it’s possible.

[00:43:20.10] spk_0:
Yeah. And and this is where I would encourage nonprofits to try different things. But um the example that we believe I used in the book um was essentially instead of giving people a form to fill out immediately, give them a yet an actual action to take. So if you say would you like more information instead of just having, you know, this is an example instead of just having a form there where I put in my name and my email address and click, click yes, go ahead and say would you like more information? Yes, no and when people click yes, then it takes them to a page with the form on it and again it’s a little counterintuitive but the conversion rate on that form if you, if you put it behind that yes, no kind of gate yeah, it can actually be higher than the conversion if you just put the form out in front. Um there’s a interesting psychological thing that happens and one of my coaches, his name is Townsend Wardlaw. He’s a really great guy. Um he always asks per michigan before providing any sort of information. So for example tony if I had just sent you my book out of the blue without you asking for it. The likelihood that you would have done anything with that would be a much lower than if if I said, hey, would you like my book and you say yes and then I say okay and I’ll send it to you. Um, similarly Townsend always says ask permission, you know, would you like, would you like my help with that? Would you like me to share that with you? Um, you know, I have a story that I can tell about this, would you like to hear it? And, and that’s priming the pump for you to say no, I’m not interested. Which saves us both a bunch of time because now you don’t have to listen to me ramble on about a story that you weren’t interested in. And it also primes that pump for, for you to be even more receptive to the story once it’s once it’s delivered. So it works in, you know, not only in just marketing, but even in just conversational um, interactions.

[00:43:43.80] spk_1:
I’ve had folks talking about permission based soliciting for, for gifts, you know, in a couple of days, could I be in touch with you about investing in whatever you know, the work or the program that’s there of interest to them could be in touch, you know, in a few days on that. Yeah. Ask their permission. Exactly exactly in line with what you’re saying, you know? Yeah, that’s their permission and then be in touch in a couple of

[00:44:42.89] spk_0:
days assuming they said yes. Yeah. That’s, and actually a really great kind of cold call, um, tactic where instead of, you know, cold calls are very disruptive. So in the sales in the sale space. So for any executive directors out there, who are, who are, you know, soliciting donations from, from either, you know, big big corporations or, or, you know, seeking to get larger donors into the fold. One of the things that is more effective is to acknowledge that this call has been disruptive and try and get something on the calendar as opposed to trying to pitch them in that moment. And so similar, similar thing. You know, can I, can we, can we talk on Tuesday at, at three? Um, instead of saying, well, I’ll just jump right into the, to this thing that you didn’t actually ask me to pitch.

[00:44:47.87] spk_1:
Yeah. And you didn’t know what’s coming. Yeah, permission based I guess. I think Seth Godin has been talking about permission based marketing for years and it’s pervaded other areas. Yeah,

[00:45:00.35] spk_0:
absolutely.

[00:45:06.79] spk_1:
Yeah. Well, you know, why not? And you’re right. If the person says no, then you’re saving both of you the anguish of going through a, going through an exercise that neither one of you, it’s gonna be fruitless for one of you and the other person isn’t the least bit interested. So yeah. You want to do something that’s an interesting and fruitless.

[00:45:34.89] spk_0:
Yeah. And you’ve also created, you’ve created an exchange. Um, in terms of a back and forth. And so that’s, you know, that works as a um, you know, there’s a conversation that’s happened there. You listened. So you, you know, it positions you just a lot differently.

[00:45:37.12] spk_1:
You listened and you honored the person’s choice. So I I called you here. I am calling Tuesday at at four o’clock. Yeah. Alright. We’re inspiring. Next to

[00:48:12.27] spk_0:
separation inspiring. So yeah, after after this bond phase where you’ve actually gotten somebody to become a volunteer or make a donation or um, yeah, get get on your list of corporate sponsors or something like that from, from a non profit standpoint. Um The inspire phase is really where we’re attempting to get people to take another action. So um, there’s an old again kind of sales adage that it’s much easier to sell to someone who’s already purchased from you than it is to sell to somebody new. Um We tend to get really excited about new relationships and new sales tend to be the thing that get people excited. How many new donors did you bring in um, last year? You know, those, those types of things get get pretty exciting. However, it’s a lot easier lift to get somebody to donate again than it is to get to somebody to donate for the first time. So in the inspire phase, uh, you know, let’s just use donors again as an example. Um We’re really trying to get people to repeat and refer. Um, so get people to become a regular donor. Um, get people to donate again. Um, you know, thinking about escalation here and and again, if you think about your, um, you’re different kind of audience types and I do some volunteer work with volunteers for outdoor colorado and they’re a great organization here in state that does a lot of trail building and advocacy, uh, for kind of outdoor spaces. And I believe the first interaction that I had with their organization was as a volunteer. And so I decided I wanted to volunteer on a project and then I became a donor. Um, so essentially they gave me opportunities to, they inspired me. Um, you know, through not only all of the fun things that we were able to do during our, our, uh, our day of digging in the dirt. Um, but also, uh, you know, just just through all of the great things that they’re doing around the state, um, inspired me to become a donor and then inspired me to take an additional volunteer step to become a crew leader. And so essentially they’re doing a really good job of kind of escalating that engagement um, through this inspire phase. They also, um, you know, encourage all of their volunteers and all of their donors to share, uh, share their stories to, uh, spread the word about their organization. So that’s that kind of refer phase. So, you know, really

[00:48:30.47] spk_1:
like you’re doing right this moment.

[00:49:22.77] spk_0:
Exactly, yep, yep. Using them as an example of, of a great organization. Um, so that’s what, that, uh, you know, that’s where that kind of inspire phase comes into play. You know, getting people to evangelize about your organization, Getting people to, to, you know, share stories to come back to move from, you know, just giving you $10 at some events to giving you, you know, $10 per month. Um, so, you know, just getting really creative and staying in touch with people. That’s the thing that tends to happen is, um, you know, people fall off on the, on those activities because they’re, they are a little less, um, exciting than bringing a new donor into the fold. Um, but you know, really making sure that you have a referral program, you have something to get people to leave reviews, you get something, um, for people to share their stories and have a campaign associated with that, that keeps people keeps you at top of mind and then keeps people kind of coming back for more.

[00:49:54.57] spk_1:
You make the point of thinking about this as investment, not expense, not to look at the cost of a new cost of a donor acquired or cost of sale or something like that, but as an investment in the organization. And, and, and these relationships,

[00:51:17.76] spk_0:
we hear a lot in the nonprofit space would, particularly when it bumps up against marketing that any dollar that I spend that isn’t spent directly toward the core mission is a dollar taken away from that core mission. And we’d like for people to approach marketing for non profits a little differently where they see non they see their marketing uh, as an as an investment in that core message and an opportunity to expand and um amplify that message so that it becomes, it enables them to reach even more people. Um, and so that slight mindset shift can be really important when one starts to undertake marketing endeavors because, you know, it is money being, um, you know, coming out of the out of the program, but really making sure that you have to have a plan, you have goals, that they are reasonable, that you’re measuring that you’re tracking that you’re actually looking at this expense, um or this investment as uh, as something that’s going to grow your mission and and just keeping tabs on that and and making sure that you have those systems in place so that, you know that the, you know, whatever money you invested in marketing um, is creating a return on that investment.

[00:51:49.96] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Please get past this insidious myth. That myth of overhead, you know that marketing is overhead and technology is overhead needless, you know, these are investments in your future. You and I are talking about investments in relationships, relationships are only going to grow and as as folks refer, you talked about repeat giving and referring as folks refer you, the relationships are going to expand beyond what you can imagine, but it takes investment. So

[00:52:11.65] spk_0:
yeah, that’s why why having a system in place is so important and and that’s what, that’s one of the reasons I wrote Mission uncomfortable was to enable people to have some kind of understanding of a system in place for their marketing so that they could feel more empowered with that investment and and more comfortable with that investment that they’re making in in their outreach.

[00:52:19.05] spk_1:
That’s the perfect place to leave. It’s too

[00:52:21.05] spk_0:
well, thank you so much for having me on the show. Absolutely my pleasure.

[00:52:43.05] spk_1:
The book is mission uncomfortable. How nonprofits can embrace purpose driven marketing to survive and thrive. You get it at mission uncomfortable Book dot com stew Schweinfurt. The studio is the practices relish studio and he and the company are at relish studio and relish studio dot com. So all right now, I’ve just said the word relish 35 times in the past two sentences. Why is it relish Studio

[00:53:01.75] spk_0:
Relish Studio came about as a kind of a play on words where this is something that is that little extra spice on top that makes things extra good as well as something that we love to do. So you know, one of the things that really inspires me to work with nonprofit leaders is um just, it’s really easy to get out of bed in the morning and and work with these types of clients because we know that everybody’s out there trying to make the world a better place.

[00:53:28.45] spk_1:
That’s cool. It’s a great double play. Relish the condiment Condiment studio. Alright. Relish studio dot com stew. Thank you again. Thanks very much.

[00:53:36.77] spk_0:
Thanks for having me on

[00:54:20.45] spk_1:
my pleasure. Next week is a social enterprise for you. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great