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Nonprofit Radio for October 14, 2016: Unpaid Interns & Social Appreciation

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Gene Takagi: Unpaid Interns

Gene Takagi

There’s new law on this and it’s pretty good news for nonprofits that use interns. But there are questions depending where you’re located. Gene Takagi explains the ins-and-outs. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Social Appreciation

Amy Sample Ward

We look at social engagement for member appreciation or your donor campaign that doesn’t include an ask. Amy Sample Ward is our social media contributor and CEO of NTEN, the Nonprofit Technology Network. (Originally aired December 12, 2014.)

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tourney martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. My voice is cracked now that uh oh, you know that i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with duodenal atresia if i had to digest the idea that you missed today’s show unpaid interns there’s new law on this and it’s pretty good news for non-profits that use interns, but there are questions depending where you’re located. Jean takagi explains the ins and outs he’s, our legal contributor and principle of neo, the non-profit and exempt organizations, law group and social appreciation. We look at social engagement for member appreciation or your donor campaign that doesn’t include an ask amy sample ward is our social media contributor and ceo of n ten, the non-profit technology network that originally aired on december twelve to twenty fourteen on tony’s take two i cracked again to twelve years old, thirteen years old. Oh, tony, say to trump and and tc videos we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee. Fundraisers, we be spelling dot com. Jean takagi is with me. Very glad of that. Glad he’s back. You know him? He’s, the managing attorney of neo, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits that popular non-profit law block dot com. And he is the american bar association’s twenty six eckstine outstanding. Non-profit lawyer he’s at g tak. Welcome. Outstanding non-profit lawyer. Hey, welcome. Outstanding non-profit radio broadcaster. How are you? I’m great. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I don’t know. Have you been live? Yeah, you have. You’ve been live since since you got this outstanding non-profit lawyer award. Yes, once or maybe twice. But yes. So it is not the first that listeners they’re hearing it, but it bears repeating until twenty seventeen and then it’s old news and you’ll have to re apply, i guess. Hey, guess but this is my first time i hit the first lot of your show. So i’m honored. Was this the first time you’re in the first half? Is that right the first time? Oh, ok. That was not intentional. Well, see, these are the perks that come with being the american bar. Association outstanding. Non-profit lawyer during the’s the perks that come with it now twenty seventeen, we’ll be back down in the aisle. Squeeze you into tony’s. Take two. You get a minute and a half. Okay. No, not at all. Not at all. I love having you. You’re our longest running. You know, we’ve talked about this every every every july when there’s an anniversary, the show we talked about this, you’re the longest standing contributor, so by no means denigrate that. All right, we are we are talking about you have unpaid interns. So, um, i want to set the stage a little bit altum in in august, there’s a federal court in new york that applied a new test to dismiss an intern’s lawsuit against the hearst corporation. And just parenthetically, i think he or she is now screwed in that career that they’d better go back to school and major in something different because their their name is dirt in whatever they’re they’re majoring in now. But any case that was august and then there’s a federal court down south in that covers alabama, florida and georgia that applied that same new test uh, which we’re going to get through all this, but but the rest of the country is a little uncertain. So i just want to set the stage for you to explain to us, um what? What is the what is the problem here with non-profits and volunteer interns? Sure. So maybe if i if i take a step back to tony, you know there are employees and there are volunteers, and if your employees, you’re paid in your subject to, like, wage and hour laws and all of the rest, right? So everybody knows that and non-profits especially charitable non-profits often rely on their volunteers very heavily, and volunteers are so so important to so many non-profits, but it becomes a little bit tricky when non-profits decide they want to pay their volunteers. You know what they might call a stipend and it’s really important to determine whether by paying the volunteer, you’ve actually converted them from being a volunteer into a worker who’s paid right, which might typically be an employee. This is when you triggered all the employment, right? This is similar to what you and i have talked about with independent contractors just because you label someone an independent contractor. Or a volunteer or an intern doesn’t make it. So exactly so the legal definition. So, i mean, you know, part of you know what a non-profit might do is if somebody like that person in the hurst case said, hey, you know, you called me an intern or a volunteer, but i’m not on. I actually have gotten some sort of payments. I should be treated as an employee and, you know, the subject, all of deals, employee rights, i should be able to exercise them well, it’s not the label that created. So perhaps they have a case and there was enough of the case, and i think it might have been a class action or just multiple plaintiff sex bob um, in that case, but so labeling them a volunteer or intern, but giving them a payment might make them an employee. And so that’s, what you have to be careful of and the fallback position before all of these new cases, we have some guidance from the federal department of labor, and they just gave us a sixth element tests, and we’re not going to go through them all. But basically the internship experience has got to be for the benefit of the interns and one of the factors and that test is that the employer that provides the training can derive no immediate advantage from the activities of the interns. Yeah, and that’s a really tough criteria to place. So you’re you’re taking on an intern, you’re supposed to train them, you’re not supposed to displace any regular employees that you have, so they’re not just, like, take the role of an employee. It’s got to be for their benefit and in in that department of labor guidance which still serves most of the country the employer khun derive no immediate advantage. So it’s like that the intern can actually benefit your business, right? Not even not even marginally. Now you have the you have the six that are standing throughout big parts of the country and, well, all in detail at non-profit law block dot com. So yeah, why don’t we put in the more references in there? I hid some of them until we do this. I saw that you had your very clever. I really appreciated that you people need to goto non-profit law block dot com if they never have but and go back if you have been. But yes, you said, you know what advice for the future chicken after the show, we’ll add it after the show and you said what’s the current state or, you know, what’s new what’s the new trend checking after the show. So you you kept i love that. Thank you very much for doing that. I was really i wanted to comment, but you had comments blocked you had you don’t allow it. You don’t know your allow free discourse on on your on your block. Did you know that is that it started to become a trend on on that elearning perhaps we could talk about that another day, but we sort of get off track with the comments. Uh, really good political in every oh, jeez. Okay. Okay. I understand. All right, so but i did want to comment, but alright, so, yeah, the the this longstanding department of labor, the six test, the sixth element test, and then the different one is the new one is seven elements yet was very weighted to the in favor of the internet and against the employer. Basically is what i saw in those six yeah, well, it definitely could be read that way. Much of this is the same actually in the new test, but the big difference is that the employer can derive no immediate advantage is not in the news and it’s. More of the new one is, uh, more of a balance versus the old one. Or maybe current in a lot of places. The six elements you had to meet all six. Yeah, versus the new one is a balance. Or were more flexibility. Okay, i think i feel like we’ve done a lot of teasing the listeners we’re going, we’re going to flush it all that, you know, you know, you know what? We’re not gonna let you down, you know that? All right, we got to take our first break, gene. And this is what happens when you’re when you’re in the first segment. There’s early break. But then we get a long stretch together, so stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I feel like doing some live listener love good. Jean, if you will indulge me, let’s, let’s, start abroad and ah, actually, let’s, let’s start in japan. Gene. Gene, you do you speak japanese? Gene schoolauction okay, i guess. I mean, that means a little bit. Okay. Okay. Well, i we say konnichi wa am i? Am i pronouncing that correctly? Like you are very close. Cooney is that better? Yeah, that was better. Okay, um, i exaggerating it or is that good? Well, we’re got it. Okay, thank you very much. Ok. Last time you’re in the first segment. That’s the end. Of course we have listeners from japan, but we can’t see your city today. For some reason, cities are masked and same thing in career we cant do you routinely can see cities but korea? Of course, on your haserot comes ham, nida and mexico city mexico bueno, star days. Glad you’re with me in mexico city. I love mexico city’s very nice. I’ve been through there a couple times norway again we can’t see your city but norway welcome live listen love to you and the philippines philippines live! Listen, are left to you that’s a new one? Do i think i’m not sure you’ve been with us before? Beijing is with us always so gracious multiple in beijing ni hao and also san juan, puerto rico would that be a way to start? Is also a way to start is, of course, san juan wellcome back here in the u, s, brooklyn, new york and new york, new york love it, love it! Brooklyn, new york in new york, new york live! Listen love to you st louis, missouri and garfield, new jersey look at this, i love it! And uh oh, late, late check in changsha, china also? Well, of course you get knee how as well for the doesn’t matter late chicken glad you’re with us in changsha and also las vegas, nevada to get some new ones garfield, new jersey brand new lovett and las vegas. I’m not sure you’ve been with us before, okay, we’re going to do the of course with live listen, i’ve got to have the podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections, but i’m gonna divide them up today. I’m feeling avant garde so those air to come. I never forgot coming. Okay, jean thank you for for hanging in there with me. Well, i get verbose, but it’s thanks. It’s. Gratitude, i think. It’s well placed verbosity. All right. Okay, so we are. We were talking about the difference between the two tests. The longstanding six elements all had to be met versus the newer one. The seven elements more balanced and s o fairer. I thought in my that’s being very subjective but in my opinion seemed fairer and friendlier to employees. Employers sorry, friendly to employers. So, um, let’s let’s talk about the newer because you summarized and again, the details are all a non-profit law block, dot com let’s talk about some details of the newer test that that got applied just in in august. It came from last year, though, right? Yeah, it originated. So for lawyers out out there, i’m probably very few. But the appellate chords sort of determined the law because a different district court might be on different sides of and then the powered court takes it and says, this is what everybody lower than us have to abide by and and the hearst corporation case with the lower court that applied the new tests that came from the second circuit, which includes new york, connecticut in vermont. So that’s, the appellate court that covers all those three states, they came down with a case called glad versus fox searchlight pictures. And i only bring that up because that’s the black swan case if anybody saw the portman movie oh, yeah, was he was based on an intern claim from from that project. So the second circuit said that hey, the department of labor test that’s not the approach we should use anymore. They actually said the approach we adopt reflects the central feature of the modern internship, which is the relationship between the internship and the interns formal education. And they said no six elements of which all of need to be met. Aziz said before it’s seven factors that were going away and the whole idea behind this is who benefits more the employer or the intern. Okay, so there’s the balance we get, we get the way a bunch of factors and see how how each of them comes out. Is that it? Basically, yeah. And that’s the modern approach not saying the employer can’t derive any benefit, which is the department of labor test, but saying, who benefits more the employer or the intern now, is this, uh, is this an an example for people who think that our courts are activists? Now we’re getting political, i don’t do politics, so we’re not going. I’m not going to give my opinion, but ah, of whether this appropriate or not, but this and this this is basically court made law, right? Because it’s the appellate court superseding a longstanding department of labor so executive branch test yeah, and, you know, the laws are either made by our legislatures or they’re made by our administrative edges agencies, they’re executive agencies, but if the you know legislature, does it there’s a lot of discussion, a lot of lawyers involved the administrative agencies khun do it just like that, right? So they create regulations that fall within the rules, and they’re trying to interpret them and it’s only through the court that we understand how to interpret their regulations and whether there are regulations are actually constitutional are consistent with the loss of this is the balance and check to the regulations and basically here we’re balancing the department of labor’s. Right. To create the tests and say that this is this is what the statute really contemplating. Okay. All right. So one one person’s balance of oven executive. Ah, executive regulations would be another person’s arbitrary lawmaking by courts. So there’s, the there’s, the two sides. And then we leave it there because this is not a political show. Okay, um, activist activist courts. Okay, so let’s, talk about the seventy seven factors in this balancing test. Um, on go. They all start with the extent to which so there’s your balance. You balancing phrase? Glad jean, once you get started. Sure. So the first is that both the intern and the employer clearly understand that there’s no expectation of compensation. So both parties no it’s, a volunteer position. And if there’s a stipend paid, you know, that’s that’s above and beyond what was expected, the expectation is no compensation. Okay? And it is a stipend that is in aa compensation for expenses that are that are paid out by the intern. Is that the stipend? Well, the stipend can actually even be a payment. Well, it could be a reimbursement for what the internist spending on. Their own, like, you know, the even transportation expectation, right? Commuting or the stipend could just be kind of saying, hey, you know, we know you’re working here for free, and we’d actually can’t afford to keep you as an employer, and we’re going to make sure that we fall within the department of labor’s or the court idea of an intern, and we’re going to give you some money. It might be five hundred dollars for the month, for example, and an employee minimum wage would be a lot higher than that. But you’re allowed to give entrance stipends within reason of longer. They really are unpaid interns and under these guidelines yeah. Okay, again, this is one factor out of seven. So a stipend is not going to kill it, but not like the old test where all six elements had to have been met. Correct. Okay. Okay. All right. So cool. All right. So you could give a reasonable stipend, a song that doesn’t look like a salary. Correct. Okay, okay. All right. What else we got there? So we got to that. That the internship actually have to provide training. That’s going to be similar to? The type of educational training that they would get in an educational environment, like, like in the school or in the clinic or something like that. So it’s inside a real life location, working location, but it’s still going to be a training element that’s really important, which makes sense. Okay, in addition to that, it’s got to be tied. The internship has got to be tied to the interns formal education program. So there’s got to be some sort of integrated coursework or the internet’s got to receive academic credit for it. Okay, now this is the second one about the the training similar to that which would be given an educational environment that seems like i don’t know is that? Is that common? I mean, i’m out of the workforce. I mean, i i i’m i’m unemployable, nobody would hire me. I’d be too much. I’d be way too much trouble. Way too many headaches. I’d be a you don’t want me, so i’m out of this. Is that pretty common? Like there is formal training sessions in an internship besides doing the day to day work? Yeah, you know, we would recommend that that be the case. It doesn’t. It doesn’t have to be like every day, and it doesn’t have to be like, you know, five hours of the eight hours that they might work. But there has to be. There should be a training element again. It’s, it’s, it’s. Not absolutely required, it’s part of the balancing test. But having a training programme is a really good tip. Okay. Okay. And then, uh, the extent to which it’s tied to the interns formal education program. So you have that might be, you know more about the class that they’re in. You know, they might write a paper about their experience at the internship. That would be integrated course work. Or they could just receive academic credits. Instead of taking a class or a clinic at school. They might just get credit for serving as an intern at a particular non-profit. Oh, well, that’s. Very common, right? I think the school credit comment. Yeah. That’s ah, it’s something that would be very important. Teo, incorporate. Okay. If you had a client, you would recommend that their interns air getting academic credit for the work they’re doing. Yeah. Or at least having their coursework recognized that they are interning at a particular non-profit and that they’re completing some sort of assignment related to that. Okay, okay. Actually, i said if you had a client, i didn’t mean to suggest that gene takagi sze practice has no clients. That’s, not the case as you are counseling your many, many clients, you would recommend what i just said. Okay, um, all right, let me i mean, i’m going to read one. I feel i feel like meeting, um, the extent to which the internship accommodates the interns academic commitment by corresponding to the to the calendar. So you gotta weave this within. What? What the intern is doing over over at their university. Right? So you don’t want to go. Hey, i know you have a class between nine and three on monday, but we’ve got work needs. You better come out here or you’re gonna lose your job. You can’t do that. Okay. Very bad. Alright, so so the employer really does need to be working with the the academic institution. Whatever is, i mean, it could be a high school, too. I suppose there needs to be a lot of coordination. It seems like yeah. Or the intern has got got to represent what their schedule is, and the employers got to accommodate that. Okay. Okay. Sorry. That’s a good one. All right. Um go ahead. You go. You go now. Okay. What about some pictures? I don’t know. Then the next one is extent to which the internships duration is limited to the period in which they’re receiving this beneficial learning. So you can’t have an intern for five years. Who’s not learning anything beyond the first six months. It’s tied to the learning again. The primary beneficiary is the intern, not the employer. Okay, the duration should be limited. Okay? And should it be limited to the to the academic calendar year like that way? Well, it might be limited depending upon what you’re tying it to see if it’s tied to just one course, it might be limited to that course. It often is limited to the summer in between, you know, the fall and the spring semester. So, it’s, just you want to make sure that they’re learning during that period and it doesn’t look like if i could jump to the next one. I’m going to take your place and let you take the last of it doesn’t displace a paid employees jobs, you’re not just taking a paid employee position and saying, hey, we don’t have an administrative assistant for this program. We really need one, but we can’t afford one what’s hired an intern on ben, train them for two days on howto answer the phone and make copies and then let them work, you know, for a year doing right, right? Right now now if if you were challenged, if the non-profit was challenged, how would it demonstrate that one that it wasn’t displacing an employee? How would you how would you go about defending yourself about that? I think you would say that you know what? We designed an internship program in advance? We did not fill a whole unemployment hole with just somebody that we hired on just called them an intern. There was a training program that we created and established in advance with thoughtfulness to make sure that they’re learning in this program. Andi put them in this position for this limited period of time, i think that’s how you show that it wasn’t intended to displace any employees on its intended to compliment on dh, you know, for their learning. Okay, okay. Cool. All right, you go ahead with last night. You’re the guest, please. Okay, so that the last one seventh factor is extent to which the intern and the employer understand that the internship is conducted without entitlement to a paid job. So it’s not like intern for us for the summer and we will guarantee you are we will strongly consider you for a job in the fall when we’re hiring for full time positions. So as your screening in turns on daz, you’re negotiating whether they’re going to come on or not, you don’t want to be emailing or saying the wrong things. Yeah, and, you know, they might really have a leg up legitimately have a leg up when you’re hiring for a full time position in the fall, because now they have a bunch of experience, but you don’t want that to be the basis, and you don’t want to entitle them to it, so they shouldn’t have the expectation that just because i intern, i’m automatically. I’m going to have this job now. Suppose someone in the organization e mails to the potential intern during the hiring process ah, you we always give our interns preference in employment at the end of the internship. How does that how does that sound to you? Yeah, it sounds like it was the gate. The factors in the balancing test thinks so, yeah, it wouldn’t be a great fact, but by itself, it probably isn’t gonna like kill them. You know that the argument that they’re not ok, but it doesn’t help so better to do things that that help your employer than rather than don’t help or, you know, neutral. So stay away from promises or preferences or anything like that of a job after your internship. Yeah, we want to stress like this is a great learning experience for you, and we’ve designed it to be a learning experience for you that the email you want. Okay, okay, now i’m not sure we made this clear, but i want to that the maybe it’s absurd and everything that we did say so the so these seven factors is balancing test. We know that this would apply in the areas that are covered by the two, the two, the two courts in new york and connecticut and vermont, because that would be a second, that concert like a second circuit. And we know that that they seemed the same. Seven apply in alabama, florida and georgia because that’s the eleven eleven intricate. Which also said that hey, when they considered in a case on appeal, they said that tests the second circuit test. Sounds right toe. Okay, so that’s for those six states that leaves forty four states wear those forty for if you’re not in one of those six. So the best guidance they have is the department of laborers. Six element. Okay, but that still has wide application in every other state. Yes. Okay, but what if a ah, now what supposed case arises in one of those other forty four states and that and the courts in that circuit or state decide we we are also going to take this second circuit seven factor balancing test. And even though you were relying on the department of labor, we are telling our region that it’s the newer test that applies from the second circuit, then the organization will be screwed. Yeah, they might be if there is, there isn’t a higher court in those other states. Those forty for other states. If there isn’t a higher court opinion that says the department of labor test is the one that you have to use, which probably for most jurisdictions, there isn’t that decision. So right? Because so long that was into court to say, hey, we’re going to use the second circuit test tube. This is more modern sounds more fair to us and then it’s upto sort of the higher court to decide whether you know, and they’ll only take it if one of the parties appeals. So, uh, if it’s been non-profit lost on it, and then you know, the lower court said, hey, this is an employee, we use the department of labor standards, the non-profit if it wants to pay a lot of money to go to an appellate court, i could say, hey, we’re going to take it up and fight this and see if your hyre court will say, no, we should apply the second circuit test, too. Mmm. Okay, so i’m feeling bad for the people in. Well, i won’t. I won’t list the forty four states, but like my friends in wyoming and indiana and iowa and let’s, see who? Else is listening live. Wait, let’s. See nevada? Well, listeners, we got listeners in nevada and missouri and no new jersey. New york. You’re covered florida. Oh, monica lee is with us in florida, chicago, illinois. Our friends in illinois. Well, i’ve listened love to each of those places. By the way, what do we tell them? I know you’ve got advice. Yeah. So, you know, this would apply to every whatever job. Okay, this is advice for all fifty. Okay. Oh, even better. I better get a signed writing. First of all that when you hire an unpaid intern that there’s an understanding in writing that this is an unpaid position. And we talked about developing the position as a learning experience ahead of time and then filling it, not the other way around. Throw in some educational sessions during the time that might not be. Might be one a week, for example, where they get, you know, learning it could be a videotape or an online presentation or in person training by supervisors and you, like your supervisors are also paid on the difference. Are also trained on the differences of managing an intern versus managing an employee. Is going to want to do that differently, including on enforcing likes scheduling and accomodating school schedules and emphasizing the education rather than giving them a lot of menial work that didn’t actually result in any academic o our educational benefits. Okay, gene, the intern let’s. Let’s. Go back to the one right before the the educational sessions. You like them to be unrelated to the the interns day to day work. Yeah, well, not unrelated, but they should be separated out. So maybe at the end of the day, there’s an hour and you do this once a week and say, hey, what do we learn from all of our, you know, your work experience today, you know, if it was mechanical, whether it was, you know, counting, background or program management. Like what did you learn that, you know, let’s, you know, write me an essay and let’s discuss it or let’s, just, you know, hash it out. And as the supervisor of the trainer in this case could could tell them what their perspectives are and what they should be looking for, how to help their clients the best so there’s a lot more into it than just sort of doing the practical work. Okay, okay, we have just about a minute and a half left just enough time for the remainder of your advice for doesn’t matter what state you’re in. Sure, so require proof of academic credit eligibility so you don’t have to sort of do it at the back and to make sure that they actually got the academic credit but require that they’re going to be offered academic credit. Okay for the internship. Okay in-kind assess and limit their their operational duties that day to day stuff. That’s really menial again? It doesn’t mean that they can’t make copies and get coffee for you, but if that’s a big part of their job, then you’ve got a problem there. Limit the length of the intern relationship. I think the last thing i want to say is and for foundation president darren walker wrote an opinion in the new york times a few months ago, you know, saying that the internships are not a privilege, and it made a strong case for paying interns and providing a handup and not, you know, treating it as a handout, so if you do that, if you start paying your interns. You’ve got to be careful that you haven’t made them employees, so make sure that you know the department of labor guidelines, and if you’re in one of the second our eleventh circuit’s st make sure you’re familiar with those guys, flint, and we’ll have it up on our block that well, you want to go back? Well, they’re familiar now because we just talked about it in detail. Yeah, okay, but yes, more detail at non-profit law blogged dot com which you should be subscribing to and reading regularly and followed jean on twitter at g attack jean thank you very, very much. Thanks, tony. My pleasure. Pleasure having you in the first segment. Social appreciation coming up with amy sample ward first. Pursuant, they have another free webinar this time it’s on donor acquisition proven techniques to add new names to your file acquisition examples for every budget. And they’ll have strategies to convert mere impressions into new donors. Impressions with your organization this is on thursday, october nineteenth at one o’clock eastern email me tony tony martignetti dot com and i will send you the registration link. And if you can’t make that it will be archived because i know a lot of our affiliate stations may be playing this after thursday, the nineteenth we have you covered, email me again, tony attorney martignetti dot com and i will connect you with the with the archive so you listeners are covered. I got you, i got your back don’t worry about that. Um, that’s pursuant and they are at pursuant dot com to check out that webinar, we’ll be spelling spelling bees for non-profit fund-raising these are ideal for bringing millennials into your organizations work not like any other spelling bee you’ve been a part of or you’ve seen check out their video, which includes clips from events, and you’ll see that there’s music and dancing and stand up comedy and fund-raising and spelling as well, ideal millennial events. The video is that we be ea spelling dot com now, tony, take to you may have heard a couple of weeks ago, the trump foundation got punished by the new york attorney general for not being registered before soliciting in the state of new york very bad and i try to make this a teachable moment, so i explained what the requirements are. Um, in my video and i’ve got another video in the same post, which introduces the first group of non-profit technology conference interview videos, i got thirty two interviews and i’ve played a bunch of them on the show there more are coming, but there were all video too, so if you miss them here, you can check the videos or if you’re ah visual person like i tend to be more visual than watch the videos, and they are all on this first group is all on digital digital data disruption, digital inclusion, your modern digital team and digital metrics. Did you see the pattern there? Okay, my videos with links to those four ntcdinosaur o’s are at tony martignetti dot com. I was very pleased with myself. I stayed out of the politics of the trump foundation. I just very straightforward. I think i was very objective there. That’s tony’s take two here’s amy sample ward on social appreciation from the december twelve twenty fourteen show you’re going to hear some live listener love there, you know we’ll send it out. It’s erroneous, but we love you anyway. We got amy sample ward have monitored for being late. But nonetheless, she’s, the ceo of non-profit technology network and ten her most recent coopted book, social change, anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement and we’re going to talk about appreciation and engagement. She blog’s at amy, sample war dot or ge? And on twitter she’s at amy r s ward any without cubine well, you may have heard the west coast had a bit of a storm last night with lots of power outages, so just dealing with getting everything back online. Sorry, that’s okay? I did not hear that i’m sorry. You have you don’t get snow there in portland, oregon. Very much. It was not. No, it was actually very warm and, you know, wind gusts seventy or ninety. Some crazy high speed, actually a piece of building downtown just a few blocks from the intent. Office blew off and crashed through the fifteenth floor windows of a law office while the lawyer was working there. No, it was a very interesting evening. Pieces of a piece of a building flew off. My god, yeah, very unfortunate. Very unfortunate for that building owner that it flew into a law office. Right? They’re prepared to think that only you know, that broken building is screwed. Okay, now i understand you’re, you know you’re like, like all the contributors, your typically early, you’re not even just on time, so i understand completely. Let me ask you about something before we get to our appreciation campaigns. Yeah, and just like in the past four months, i noticed at facebook they spun off their messenger app, and at four square they spun off. They’re a nap called swarm, and i’m wondering why why it is that these huge two huge social sites would spin off two separate aps big chunks of what draws people to them. The facebook it’s the messages message i’m sorry messaging and it’s a four square the whole purpose of four square is checking in, and they spun that checking function off too. A separate app called swarm why do they do those things? I have a few different ideas, probably none of them have any, you know, piece of reality in them, they’re just totally my own experience trust your way, trust your judgment. I mean, i do think that one piece that factors in is the you know we’re all we’re using different act all the time and if i am using facebook to connect and i’m able to kind of multitask inside of their consent messages, i can post things, whatever, and then i leave facebook and i go to some other messaging app to talk to friends. You know, facebook just had fifty percent of my time, but if i’m using facebook to do that, i closed facebook and then i opened my messenger app and start messaging people there. Now facebook has one hundred percent of my time in that example, you know, so it’s providing a way for the app to be it me and focused as possible, but then still own the other nation focused parts that you know you want to do. So instead of having that all in one super multitask kind of after experience, you’re splitting that off into ap, and part of that, too, is that you know, facebook is more of an example of this than four square, but a lot of facebook users in the beginning were all using facebook on their computer where was a lot easier to kind of multitask. Have a chat, you know, send someone a message post on your news feed whatever. Well, now, you know, most people are using facebook on their phone, so it’s it’s much more difficulty to be multitasking inside of a nap. So again, you have multiple app that are all technically rolling up into the same umbrella. So it’s easier from the user’s perspective, i don’t have to import all those new contacts in new app it’s still facebook, but it’s focused on what i’m doing there, okay, that one and then you always have to factor in like, well, how are they? How are they monetizing those ap? Whether the ads, what are they selling? What’s the data they’re able to capture? And if you have multiple apse that are more focused and maybe have different different data pieces that air getting pulled in, then that’s even more opportunity, i see. Ok, and the one thing that does resonate with me eyes the ease of use of the app. The facebook app gets a little it’s a little busy so i could say i had to see that spinning. Okay, see, that is a good reason, but okay, monetization too. And andi, just time, time, time that they want you paying attention. To their they’re brand okay, yeah. I mean, if you want to think about the four square example, i mean, when we first started using foursquare, it was you could check in somewhere. I am here. You know, you could see where your friends were, and then they really started in and encouraging users to leave tips and post recommendations, and then they rolled out some features that we’re trying to see where you were and then ping you and say, hey, is this where you are? What if you do this thing here, you know, and have offers and promotions? So it became came. It became a little busy, right? So it made sense been off that other piece that’s more the recommendations and the where to go and where your favorite places. Because now that’s almost like competing with yelp, you know, give them a second app. That’s more in competition with maybe app. Those users are already, you know, have installed on their phone right and system apart a bit from that. Okay, cool. Thank you. Thank you for those insights. I find myself actually checking in a lot fewer. A lot less often now with the with the separate swarm app that’s that’s me. I don’t know, i have no idea what the statistics are, but i just thought, you know, i don’t feel like i haven’t even used it since that which happened interesting. I mean, i had a very boring foursquare news feed in which i only checked in an airport, so i did, you know, i used to only see you at airports that’s, right? I just thought you were just there all the time. Okay, well, it was a way of saying, hi, i’ve come to new york was around or i’ve come teo wherever. All right. Thank you. Let’s talk about appreciating our donors and maybe and volunteers and maybe even employees through the through the social networks. We don’t always have to be asking for something, right? I don’t think that we have to be asking for something. And i also think that really great. Ah, really great. Thank you. A really great sign of appreciation will be met with eagerness to give again or to volunteer again or two, you know, come again, wherever it was that you were an event, etcetera. So i think, you know, i have worked with people and organizations where it felt like if we’re not including an ass, you know, we can’t necessarily devote the staff time and energy to put on appeal together on dh, you know, i get that if you’re really strapped, there’s only three of us, you know, we have to make this happen, but i really think that taking that time to just say thank you really goes so much further in building that relationship, which we want to talk about fund-raising a special, especially individual fund-raising that’s really that’s really the peace, right, it’s building that relationship, you know? I don’t know that you could sure maybe you don’t mail something out that is a hard cost of male and all those thank you letters, you know, but i think there’s got to be a way, especially with social media, where it can be so much more quick and nimble to say thank you and make it feel really good. So maybe for twenty fifteen, we can plan an appreciation campaign. Yeah, let’s do it. Okay? And you have a bunch of examples we’ll get to talk about some of the examples, but what? You know this true of probably any campaign that were we’ve talked about in the past, but what do you think we should be thinking about as we plan our let’s make it what is most likely a donor volunteer appreciation campaign, napor which would be, what do we have in mind? So one thing that i think we need to have in mind is the timing of when we say thank you, i think often we always think, okay, well, we’re going to ask people for money. It’s december, right now, you know, so say everybody’s got their end of your appeals, and then when someone donates and it goes into the database, they get their confirmation email and it says, thank you, and we made sure that it was a really nice thank you letter, but it’s a confirmation email and it says thank you and we feel great because they got think i also think there’s a lot of opportunity to have said thank you before that ask went out if we if it’s december it’s the end of the calendar year, right, what if november or even that very beginning of december is when you make sure everybody that’s already donated, donated in the year or maybe donated last december or volunteered so far this year came to one of your events this year. Whatever it is, it’s important to you is a monthly member, whatever they get thanked for what they’ve already done. So when they received that end of year, ask they feel like, oh, i’ve already been recognized. Maybe i do want to give a little bit more. Or maybe i do want to come to the end of your, you know, gala, whatever it is, i think that that’s really important and some thing i don’t often see organizations do say thank you. First on dh then that people up for that ask later. Yeah, you get them feeling very good when the actors come that’s really interesting. All right, we’re going to go out for ah, quick break. And we may end up dividing this into two two conversations since we got a little short and i you know, i had an extra question for you, but we’ll get through. Well, well, great. Certainly. Nobody’s going to be short changed on non-profit radio. It just is not going to wait. All right, we got to go away for a few minutes, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from a standup comedy, tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m rob mitchell, ceo of atlas, of giving. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I like the drama in rob mitchell’s voice. Thank you. Rub some more live listen, love quick woodbridge, new jersey i love all the new jersey sabat fort lee woodbridge let’s go abroad croatia sorry, we can’t see your city. I have a friend who works for unicef in croatia, ireland, turkey and vietnam. Vietnam we can see you cities kanto and hoochie minh city live listener love out to each of you. Okay, let’s, continue thinking about r a campaign of appreciation, something that we’re always emphasizing together because you make me pay attention to it is you’re going to have to do this in the channels where your donors and volunteers are not in the channel where you would prefer to be thanking them exactly. And i think i think part of that is, um, uh, struggle and an opportunity so there’s the, you know, if we see just use antennas an example, if we see people are tweeting about their local tech club and they’re an organizer, so they’re, you know, big volunteer for us, we wantto jump right into twitter and start engaging with them and thanking them and pointing people to them and, you know, doing whatever, but then we also want to find ways where we leave that channel to make something private just for them. I think there is that thank you and recognition that’s public. Um but for example, last week, everybody on staff sat together and just passed cards and everybody wrote thank you cards and signed everybody else’s thank you cards and mailed those out to aa group of what we call community champions, you know, really, really great volunteers for us. And it didn’t take that long, but everybody physically wrote, you know, out that card and we never mail things to tech. You know, we don’t ever male things were a technology organization. So when those folks received the cards at the end of last week, we started getting emails were like, oh, my gosh, you mean, how did you even have my address? You mailed me a card. This is so cool. Thank you for thinking of me. So i thought fingers that in the moment go into the same channel. That person is and thank them and engage with them. But then find something that can be special. That’s just between you and that donorsearch or that volunteer or whatever that makes them feel extra special. Excellent. Excellent. Videos are very common. As as an appreciation method. You could do them and mass, and you could do them, maybe even individually. Which i think i think what most difficulty when we think about video is one of the most often pointed two examples of how to do a thank you to your donors that i see in block post every year is charity water and how they, you know, record all these different videos so that, you know, if i donated, i opened up my email oh, my gosh, here’s a video where someone is saying, you know, hi, amy, thank you for donating, and i’m like, oh, my gosh, they made this just for me, we, you know, most non-profits do not have the staff capacity to do that, or if we’re going to be really honest, maybe don’t necessarily feel like they have the technical skills to create lots of videos and added them and feel like they know howto get them up quickly on youtube and embed them in an e mail and send them out, you know? So i think that video khun b really personal, but i really think organizations should consider video something that can be personal because they’re being really authentic and they’re being their individual selves versus you’ve created separate videos for every single donor that makes sense. I mean, i think it’s a non opportunity for staff, whether it’s executive director, other staff to just not feel like it has to be a high production video that it’s really just me sitting at my desk, if you, you know, you sitting in the studio creating a quick, very authentic video that says thank you, and you can share that either an email or, you know, share that video on twitter, whatever that is. But i think it’s better that it’s, that it’s really authentic as it’s created versus feeling obligated to create, you know, tons of videos just so that it has people’s names in it doesn’t make sense for sure, because you’re saying that something that’s authentic, genuine, heartfelt will will come across and people are people don’t really expect to have a personalized video made for organization that can do that, you know, that is terrific, but the vast majority cannot, but everybody could be genuine, you know? I mean, i try to come across genuine on a mic and in video, and a ceo can do the same thing, and and you’re right, and staff to you you have examples of each of those thie all right, the ceo of girls inc has a very nice, very thoughtful video judy reading berg and it’s just her sitting in an office and it’s like a minute and a half video and she’s very genuine. Yeah, i actually i’ve i’ve talked to a lot of people at, you know, at our conference or other conferences where, you know, they say i’m the executive director, you know, i know that if i’m going to be in a video, of course it needs to be, you know, like in a nice setting or, you know, we don’t have a very pretty building, you know? We don’t have, you know, our offices and very nice i don’t know where that comes from that feeling that, you know, you’re the executive director and you’re going to create a video for the organisation. It has to be in some, like, beautiful, you know, sound studio. I love it when it’s literally your desk like i would if i was working with girls inc and judy has hurt you. I would say put more messiness on that desk, mate, make it literally your desk. You know, people. Maybe she’s, super neat and tidy, which i also am. I have currently two things on my death, but but maybe that’s really her desk, but just haven’t be an invitation to come in and sit down with you. You know, i think that’s, um, that’s a really great and super easy way for any organization tohave a video feel like it’s being personal, you know, you’re just inviting them into the space. Of course, if it’s on office, where you’ve got all kinds of things in there, that can be a video. I mean, of course, there’s going to be, you know, exceptions to that statement, but i do think just invite them into your office have, you know, make it feel like someone sitting down with you have someone literally in the video sitting down with you, whatever you can do to just make it feel like you’ve been brought in, you know, personally, we just have about a minute left there’s an example of a different one from nature conservancy, which is a whole bunch of staff from all over the world, and a lot of it starts with them each saying thanks to you and then whatever it is their job is and how, how the donors all support their work, whether it’s underwater, you know, forest and grassland that’s a lovely one, too, thanks to you, yeah, i love that example video from the nature. Well, we can we’ll send out these links and everything for listeners on dh i love that they use is an opportunity to highlight what staff do because with an organisation like the nature conservancy, often times you don’t even know. I mean, i want to support the nature conservancy, but i don’t know i’m supporting them because i don’t even know how to do that work. I don’t even know what you would do, you know? And so i think, it’s a great way to highlight this is actually what our organization does. These were the kind of staff that we employ to do this important work, because again, if you’re goingto follow-up later with another, ask donation request, people now have that understanding of oh my gosh, yeah, you do need more funds because this is the scale of the work. These are the kinds of people that, you know, need to be on the ground doing this. And i want to support that. We have to leave it there. Any sample ward ceo of inten, you’ll find her at amy, sample, war dot or ge, and also at amy, r s ward on twitter. Thanks very much, amy. Yeah, thanks for letting me talk about appreciation. I appreciate you so much, tony. Oh, amy, oh, my god, that’s. Incredible, thank you. I’m grateful. I’m so grateful that you contribute month after month. Thank you. More gratitude live. Listen, love check, but the podcast pleasantries in the affiliate affections i got a lump them together because sam is telling me i’m running out of time. You know i appreciate your listening, whether it’s an am fm station or in the time shift from your own device in your own time, my pleasantries and my affections to you next week. I’ve never let you down. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we be spelling dot com. Our creative producer is clear myer off sam liebowitz is that line producer keeping me on schedule. Gavin dollars are am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez, and our music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and degree. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of offline as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 12, 2014: Your Online Approach Plan & IRS Helps You Market

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Tulani Elisa, Dottie Hodges & Amanda Heidtke: Your Online Approach Plan

Tulani Elisa, Dottie Hodges & Amanda Heidtke
With (l to r) Tulani Elisa, Dottie Hodges & Amanda Heidtke at NTC

If you want to reach and engage effectively online, you have to plan. What’s the leadership role? How do you get buy-in on the plan? What about those who stray from agreed goals? Tulani Elisa is social media manager for Threespot, and Amanda Heidtke is director of digital strategy for Hodges Consulting, where Dottie Hodges is president. (Recorded at NTC, the Nonprofit Technology Conference 2014.)

 

 

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Yigit Uctum is a CPA with Wegner CPAs. He’s got ideas for using your IRS Form 990 in your marketing. See, it does have a purpose.

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week. John fulwider he’s new to non-profit radio from when dorrie clark was on two weeks ago, he tweeted that he was binge listening to shows, and i love that i had to make him listen er of the week john is in lincoln, nebraska, he did a ted x talk about his own infertility. He’s a coach for non-profit ceos on twitter, you’ll find him at John m fulwider with 1 l congratulations, john listener of the weak and thank you very much for binge listening. The non-profit radio i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer retro peritoneal fibrosis if i came to learn that you had missed today’s show you’re online approach plan. If you want reach to reach and engage effectively online, you have to plan what’s leadership role. How do you get by in on the plan? What about those who stray from your agreed goals? Tulani elisa is social media manager for threespot. Amanda heidtke e is director of digital strategy for hodges consulting where daddy hodges is president and that was recorded at ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference twenty fourteen and irs helps your marketing you eat coach tomb is a c p a with wagner cpas he’s got ideas for using your irs form ninety nine ninety in your marketing, it does have a purpose on tony’s. Take two get off ellis is back for pizza. We’re sponsored by generosity siri’s hosting multi charity five k runs and walks here is my interview on your online approach plan from and t c welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen we’re at the marriott hotel, the marriott wardman hotel in washington, d c and with me now are tulani elisa, daddy hodges and amanda heidtke e tulani is social media manager for threespot daddy hodges is president of hodges consulting and amanda high key is director of digital strategy at hodges consulting. Welcome, ladies have all three of you your your workshop topic? His strategy is not a four letter word. How setting a plan for your online approach reaps rewards tulani let’s still you’re closest to me let’s start what what do you, uh at threespot? What do? You think some of the shortcomings are that not necessarily at threespot, but that that non-profits generally are not strategic enough about what should they be doing? A lot better? You think so at threespot we design websites and make social media strategies analytic strategies in digital strategies for non-profits for ngos, for government organizations. So that’s what we deal with all the time? Ah, a lot of the time what happens is non-profits think, oh, we need to do social and then they don’t think we should happen approach. We should make sure to go about it the right way. We should do some pre planning, they just kind of want to get into the space because it’s so fast moving fast paced on, always changing. So a lot of what kind of we are going to be talking about our panel is really you know how a digital strategy could play out things like social media or website design or any kind of approach that you have online. So a lot of times, it’s the kind of leap without really knowing what snacks in. So we want to talk about what you do before you leave daddy, i imagine you see much the same thing at hodges consulting we do and, you know, i think tulani is reference to what we call shiny object syndrome is one of the the biggest players also kind of the collective sense of, you know, we’re looking at things from a organizations perspective, you know, our program work our mission, how were structured as an organization, the content we produce, but we find increasingly, organizations need a little help in seeing it from sort of an outside perspective in terms of who are we trying to reach you, our target audiences? What are they looking for? And then what do we want them to do? What’s what the engagement components that we want them to accomplish? And so having that sort of step back first really helped productive strategy gain results in the end that shiny object syndrome you mentioned? What are some of those shiny objects that you see clients reaching for you name a twitter blogger? We won’t read it. I mean, it’s, just ask twenty sites. Yeah, we want this amazing he website that does everything from soup to nuts. Um, really, what they want to do is find out what that target audiences that will reach their mission will reach and do that thing, not try to be everybody’s everything not try to be the website that gets thie program directors needs met. The executive directors needs met the needs of the membership services department, but rather figure out what the organization’s mission is and how they can leverage that website or that social media project and used it to get that message out, which is what the audience wants, not necessarily what the organization thinks he s so we should be thinking about what our constituents are on doll in all their different varieties, what their needs are everybody everybody’s nodding? Yeah, definitely really important for organizations to stop thinking like organizations and more like their constituents and and thinking about what they want to hear and the people that are looking at their social media pages or their blogger, their website and what really connect with them. And you can do that easily through doing audience research through, you know, going through and seeing you know what posts and what content is really working, resonating with people, what are they engaging with? And and what’s not working and how do we change that? And you can also really look at the landscape and look at your peers and say, okay, what are they doing that we’re not doing that’s working, you know, and it’s so much of it is really, you know, taking what you see with your own stuff, taking what you see from people that have the, you know, the best in class work and saying, ok, this is working for them, how can we, you know, do that for our own selves actually could even go so far as to be sharing their content that you see doing well, let’s, let’s give a shout out to our our colleagues over at whatever the other organization is that for? For sharing this mean, or, you know, whatever exactly it could be sharing content on dh using, you know, third party content is always a good way, teo, you know, get people to show that you’re a thought leader and to show that you’re someone that really, you know, knows what’s going on because you’re observing other people in the space and it’s also a good way, you know, most people that are in design and articulation, you know, you’re stealing from everywhere, you know? And and then you’re you’re making that into something that works for you and that’s, okay? Because what you’re doing is is kind of making, showing that you understand what’s happening because you’re actually going back, creating your strategy and saying, oh, they did this how can we work that into our goal of, you know, fund-raising how can we work that to our goal of awareness? So really, you know, yes, very party content, but also really using those things up for your own and making that your own as well to fit into your strategy? Okay, daddy, how are we going to get started in being more strategic and invoking the bomb? I’ll tell you what, it’s, not for start there. Uh, it’s not panic. It’s not panic central. And i think a lot of organizations look at the different challenges where the different needs or perceived needs of the organization and have a little bit of that panic moment. How do we start? How do we begin to know what to do first, what tactic to pursue and so are approach essentially is to say, we’re going to take a step back and look across the organization collectively, this is the key word right and agree upon what our goals and objectives are as an organization are our priorities to dr membership, which is ok now, let’s agree that that’s call it what it is and agree that that’s the case, is it advocacy direct actions or some combination and getting everyone collectively to head nod in the same direction about those goals and objectives to then say, ok for that objective, let’s look at our audiences and do the research tulani is talking about to then roll out, and we can talk a little bit more the later stages, but i wantto i actually have a man to talk a little bit about, you know, sort of getting those heads nodding in the right direction and how that happened. Well, now that’s the critical piece, okay? I know you’re president of hodges consulting, but i’m the host of tony martignetti you do what you like way are going to get that because actually i want to deal with the how twos we don’t want only be at the theoretical devil, right? But i do want to ask you a question about leadership if we’re going to get all these people seated around the table and ultimately, which could be a bit of a process like, but ultimately agreeing, we’re going to have to have leadership hyre buy-in to this to this process, absolutely leadership engagement is critical, and that might be at the executive director level. It might even be the board involvement in some cases, depending on how the organization works but making sure that there’s a team assembled, we call it a core team that is generally a smaller group that has the authority and autonomy to drive the process because we want leadership engage, but we also don’t want leadership to get so involved in the granular pieces, let’s say we move forward with a website redesign, and we’re talking about those very particular components we want that core team, they have the authority to move the project forward and then engage others in the organization as appropriate, you know, external audience research, whatever it is, but that engagement of the leadership, the organization is critical to move the project forward and what’s also important with leadership. A lot of times, you’ll see. It’s that non-profit is really getting them to buy into that strategy like you were saying, so having them understand, you know, this strategy is going to help us reach this goal or this is, you know, this is what the r o is going to be. This is the return on investment that we’re going to get out of doing this out of, you know, making our website better or having a blogger doing that kind of thing and then showing them those results after lorts so a really important part is to set metrics and to have analytics and to say, you know, we want to do this, we don’t want to put out this picture just hits a pretty picture of something we want to do this because we know this picture is going to get a decent amount of shares that’s goingto connect to more people, that’s going to get us more donations. So so really, like daddy was saying, not being too granular, but showing them the bigger picture of, you know, here’s what we can get out of this, you know? And i would add it’s not even just getting their buy-in but it’s getting them to stay focused on what the goal of the project is, whether it’s a website redesign or a social media campaign, having served for eight years as the director of online operations, that trout unlimited, which is a large, large non-profit that has chapters and councils all across the country as well as the national office, and they all want to work in concert together and leverage digital media, getting everyone in the room together to pick a few key goals, and then to pursue a project with that premise so that every decision that you make along the way happens with the vision of these are the goals were trying to me, and when you’re making a decision along the way, it has to meet that metric and that goal, because it’s, very easy for non-profits internally, too have shiny object syndrome, but past that, too also change their mind midstream mid project about what the goal of it is about it’s, horrible and it’s rampant. I find that having worked on the other side of the table worked for a nonprofit for so long, it was very hard to keep everybody who needed to be have. That by and focused along the way as to what the end goal really is. E-giving didn’t think shooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, get in. I think. Cubine this’s, the way we’re hosting part of my french new york city, or guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back. French is a common language, yet they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and it common desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them. Share this story. Join us. Pardon my french new york city every monday from one to two p, m. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna so before we even get to what? What? What daddy was urging that i turned you to turn to you for and we will. We’ll suggesting it was it was an admonition. It was actually morning on admonishing me. I i that’s how i took it. He’s always talking about i am a leo. Okay. See? See, my perception was not unbiased on based. Okay. So before we get to that, but what? What do you do when the cats start to stray and different different or teams within the organization start? Tio buy-in convert the goal. Onda work. You know, i think converting the goal in the work actually is okay. As long as everyone is going to agree at the same time that the kitten, the herd of kittens, is moving in a direction so and it’s all justifiable on organizational basis across all departments, not just from our perspective in our department. Absolutely. What do you do when somebody starts to stray? Well, well, i love having the key mission, and i love having the metric decision. So one of my favorite components of any strategic task is to have the metrics by which you’re going to gauge if it’s being successful and that does help keep the organization on task, because if you’re all looking to get the same piece of data and the same result, what the result is from it, you can kind of keep people focused on heading down that path. The trick comes in when your goals aren’t clear enoughto have a metric to follow it up by, and so making sure that your goals are very your tactics have very specific goals and that the actions you’re going to take to reach those goals are very well defined and that’s the strategy that a lot of non-profits don’t they? Don’ts don’t put their heads around what those tasks and components look like and understanding what those are before you dive down into a any project is critical to the success of that project. Give me an example of what you just said take it from from your own background or ah hodges, consulting client, whichever you like. Sure so from my own background, trying limited recently did a very large website redesign and by large, i mean, they scrapped the old site and started afresh on dh perhaps the best example. I have of that is the decision that was the website school going to be specific to growing the membership? Or was the websites gold going to be specific to growing? Engagement? Peer-to-peer engagement and the gold changed throughout the life of the project. So as a website redesign was commencing, the goals went from are we going to sing? We grow our membership uses to drive increased donations through a membership drive to you know, really, what we actually want to do is create this peer to peer network of of people across the country who are engaged in our mission and offer them a place to do that electronically, digitally, through a website. And so it was a subtle shift in focus. Now, ultimately, i believe the organization was it was right, because the by creating that peer-to-peer network, you will in fact grow the membership it’s a different timeline, the tactics that you would take to grow the membership if that was simply your sole goal are much different than the tactics we would take if your goal is to create a social network on buildup. Peer-to-peer right? And, you know, you kind of also asked a kind of not give credit, but understand that things in the digital, especially social media but all digital space are changing so much and so quickly, and people are doing so many different things that situations where people lose track of what their goal was or what they were going towards can happen so quickly, you know, you see a competitor, you see someone that, you know, your organs, they should admires, and they’re doing something that wasn’t in your strategy and you’re like, well, maybe we should be doing that, or maybe, you know, and everyone gets that not just the pang of envy, but that paying of, like, we’re missing out, we should be doing this, we’re behind where this and that’s, what the digital space kind of makes you feel like and so, as amanda was saying, you know, when you’re able to say, ok, we see this we’re taking account, how do we put that into our strategy? And also, how are we willing to hurt these cats in this direction? So that it saying, okay, we have to acknowledge that maybe this is it isn’t something that we thought about from the beginning, but it’s something that we can do we can work with because we still have that base, that strategy, you know, that the key words, the ideas that were following being being flexible, working within your especially non-profits work within the different programs of the organization to find ways to be tactical through a digital media it’s okay, too get off track a little bit if it meets a specific, even purpose along the way. And i think to you found that a lot of times as we went through this eighteen month provoc project that that subtly shifting it when you work with a program staff who has a very unique need, but it would fit in the metrics of the project or working with developments team so that their their goals were met even though fund-raising wasn’t perhaps the ultimate be all and all but that they still had a very viable program and they needed digital focus. It was fine one more. One more thing on the goals, too. When we talk about getting an organization to decide on priorities, the first thing we say is it’s okay? We’re not saying we’re not going to do these other things. But when we have to make decisions about, you know, the user experience or prioritizing even projects against one another, you know, that we will let those overriding goals lead, that we will still be doing these other things, they’re not going to be scrapped entirely in the same with reaching different audiences when they do the prioritization. All right, so now, in my own good time, i’m going, and i’m going to turn now to a man i’m just giving you shit that don’t nobody listens to this show anyway, so don’t that’s not true, it’s not thank you, but, uh, okay, amanda now maybe maybe it’s, similar to what happens when people stray, but let’s go to how we’re gonna create this process we have the leadership that daddy made clear is essential. How are we going to get all the different program fund-raising finance and business all the interests to agree? What is that process, doctor? What’s. The start of that process at the start of that process is without a doubt having your technology lead on staff talk. Teo the equivalent lead in every program area whether its development, major gifts, administrative human resource is program. Every person needs a voice at the table, and i found the most effective way to do that is get everyone in a room for a full day were or chop and you spend the day going through it’s it’s really and airing of the grievances i really, truly is what it boils down to. Everyone needs a minute to talk about what the websites not doing for them and what it is doing for them and to talk about what they wanted to do. And when you start to do the airing of the grievances, i always imagined what would happen it was it would just be horrifying day, and it actually wasn’t it really put a spotlight on what some very specific areas of problem, where digitally for the organization and with dottie’s focus around how that day was constructed. We ended up with some very clear problem areas that allowed us to turn around and come back and say, ok, these are the areas that seemed to be the problem now let’s talk about how we can effectively fix them and what everyone did was when they got their chance to air their grievances, they felt heard. And then the next step was buy-in getting all of your primary decision makers to share what was wrong, then turns around in your benefit and allows them to feel buy-in in the process, they now think their needs are going to get met because they are. Ultimately what you want to do is meet those needs through your digital strategy. You hear what’s not working for every one you say here’s ways that we can meet them well, let’s, prioritize those and then once you do that, you have your vision. Now you have your strategic vision, our organization says here’s what our web site didn’t do here’s what wasn’t working for you, here’s where we wanted to go now we have a vision, we’re all now working together, everyone now has that collective head nod. We’re all looking the same way we all have the same focus and then it’s just working through a series of tactics to get to the end result and that’s really? What? Dotty’s what daddy’s company brought to tryto limited was this very clear process that we would go through. Everyone was going to agree everyone’s heads were not in the same way. And then we move on from the strategic, the strategic vision to tactical that efforts. So so trout unlimited was a was a hodges consulting clients. And then you must have been such an evangelist, right? Yeah, immediate values. And we’re leaving what daddy was doing that she hired you away. If i had been the director of online operations for eight years, so my time had come, i had run my course that try to limit it. It was it was a great organization, it’s a great organization were doing with us and we still have them. Is a client so it’s all very good. Okay, excellent. All right, now i had mentioned on office that i’m having a hard time seeing how the website impacts then so help me out. I had mentioned bringing to this table finance, finance and the c f o in the business. What does the money? What? How does the website or even relate to them? I think it’s a little bit of how it relates to them in the overall of how the website relates them, and also how the process relates them. So a lot of especially a man who is talking about is also the process of how do we get everyone on the same page? So what we do is threespot is that we do stakeholder interviews and see, you know, what people are looking for, what they’re not getting, what they want, that kind of thing and the way something like finance please in is that if you’re hiring from outside or even if you’re doing it internally, there’s a lot of money and time and energy that goes into additional strategy, a website, hiring people, that kind of stuff, having they’re having their perspective and having, you know, is it worth it? Is not that kind of thing? Also, in the thought of what if one of your goals is raising money or doing something like that and working with, you know, the finance team to say, okay, how much money is going to be worth it? You know, how much is is it going to matter if we do this? And we raised, you know, five thousand dollars like, is that still impactful? Like what? You know, what really matters? So i mean, everyone really has a rule and it’s important to kind of as a man said, not ignore that because you don’t want to come back, as were talking about before you’re coming to the leadership in your coming to people on the board or something like that, and they’re like, well, this is not what we expected but it’s not what we wanted or just not answering any of our questions or, you know, it’s a great website, but why do we have this? You know, you should know better evangelize er for your mission, then your staff, and if every staff doesn’t feel bought into your end product, then you’ve not done your homework. And so making sure that the director of human resources, which needs to post job openings on the website, has a clear and free way to do so is critical for that end product and on lee, you know, let’s, just say your primary goal is to drive membership or to build community, that doesn’t mean that you’re going to do that to the detriment of process or efficiency for other staff in the organization that program director who’s still trying to do a very small, focused niche of your mission, needs as much buy-in and as much voice in the process as the executive director, everyone needs a voice on the tape you go and that’s just the way you mentioned the the power of the process really is part of it as well, not just the outcome. Amanda, you were talking about that earlier where, you know, people collectively begin to see, you know, if i’m a director of development, obviously i have a pretty clear priorities for the site, right? But if i’m suddenly at a table where maybe i haven’t really been conversant or, you know, had the opportunity to work alongside directly finance, hr, whatever, whatever we’re collectively, we start to have the conversation about the good of the whole, it really changes the perspective. Everyone still got what they need to get done right at the end of the day, but it really helps that perspective so that everyone’s kind of starting to look in the same direction. One of the examples i had it that for that it try to limit it was to really sit and listen to membership services that people are are on the frontlines answering the phone calls from people who are giving online or doing any number of tasks to the website and really hearing from their perspective what their feedback is specifically from the members where the sticky points are what they have to put up with when the fund-raising team puts out, you know, one hundred thousand emails or what or the the advocacy team puts out an action alert on an issue what the reciprocal event is for that person and it’s very, i think it’s very common for non-profits for programs and teams to work very siloed. You have your task, you have what you do. You sit down and do it there’s not a lot of opportunity for the hole, for the whole organization to come together around a single project except for digital media eah, thes tend to be the kinds of projects where the entire group the entire non-profit as a whole has a stake in the outcome. That really is where elektronik transcends a lot of what any non-profit does, daddy, i’d like to talk a little about the details of this this strategic day. Are there boardmember is there? Is the board represented in that or no really? Just just senior leadership? No that’s, a good question. And can be historically, we have not seen that not by design. Typically you get, you know, unengaged executive director seo, whatever the role, maybe you get, you know, the sea level in director level heads of departments in that sort of workshop environment, often times at key points with clients, for example. And amanda mentioned the strategic vision deliver herbal. It could go by other names. I think threespot uses a different name, but basically that’s, that touchstone document that says here’s, what we’re gonna accomplish together that’s the kind of document that often gets elevated to the board level. So oftentimes when we create a project timeline, one of the first questions with the core committee is okay. Who are decision makers who needs to be involved at certain touchpoint what are those timelines? We have a quarterly board meeting coming up, whatever it may be so that we can structure the project around that and get that buy-in you, like teo, do these offsite typically it’s on side of the client? Sometimes virtual were a fairly virtual company, actually. So it tends to be a real blend. And it really we look to the client to dictate. What their preferred, you know, method is okay. And and you are the facilitator for the day. Yes, martin. Okay. What say we have, i guess, another couple of minutes or so let’s. See, uh, who wants to must leave? Cem cem parting thoughts let’s see the money? Let me ask you for money. It sounds like it sounds like threespot does more than just build websites. I mean, your sounds like you’re deeply engaged in the analytics that are going to contribute to the to the design of the website. Yes, threespot way started off mostly doing websites, but we also to social media consulting strategy. Sometimes it requires in housework. I’ve gone to work for clients for a while, we do analytics, we do content creation and content strategy, user experience. And so really kind of just range is everything which is again goes back. Teo, you know, you’re not just building a website, you’re creating experience, you’re creating a strategy, and so, you know, if we just build a website and we didn’t have conversations about how social plays into it, how we’re going to launch it on social media once it goes up you know what? The, you know, the analytics that we’re going to put behind it, you know how those gonna play? And we’re going to google analytics? Are we tracking out all the links? You know, that kind of stuff, then you’re kind of just doing part of your digital strategy on dso threespot is an interactive agency, it’s, not just a web design agency, and we really, you know, make sure to touch on all of those things on dh so it could be, you know, going through and going through every ounce of content and saying, ok, how do we have to change this? How do we migrate this over that kind of stuff? And it also could be coming up with the robust way to show analytics to the board, you know? So it really there’s there’s a lot of different things that we do all right on daddy wanted to leave us with some parting thoughts about the importance of the s bomb sure s o the importance of yes, bomb i think in the context we’ve been talking a lot about in the context of web development, which is certainly applicable, we think of it a little more. Broadly and just to echo what tulani saying about looking at the big picture that, you know, the bomb is in a four letter word, it’s not a dirty word, it’s not something. Where, you know, you hear someone say we need a strategy and people go oh, you know, and they just think of many, many months and many, many stacks of papers that may or may never get examined, digitally or otherwise. And we want to create something for the organization that’s very viable, you know, creates and produces a road map, you know, creates buy-in ultimately gets to better product that’s gonna have a better r a y for the organization and and the truth is, we kind of cheat because we like the framework so much we use it. There were lots of stuff, whether it’s, a website, project or an organization says we need to look across the enterprise at what we’re doing with our digital program or we kind of just need any communications plan of attack. We’ll apply the same framework, so we think it works across the board, which to me means it must be at least relatively solid and it also just helps to always say that. It’s a working document. So understanding the digital space is changing all the time, you know, making sure that, you know, you create these documents in this strategy, but, you know, really emphasizing people. This is a working document. You know, another platform might come up for another way to approach fund-raising might happen. And really, you know, having people be open. Teo yes, sir. Strategy. But it could develop. They could change and being willing to evaluate whether that new platform belongs in in our suite or or not exam avoiding that shiny object syndrome. All right, we have to leave it there. Thank you very much, ladies. Thank you for having my pleasure. Tulani. Elisa is social media manager at threespot. Daddy hodges, president of hodges consulting and the newest. It sounds like the newest employee of hodges consulting. Is that correct? Is amanda heidtke. She is a director of digital strategy there. Thank you again very much. Thank you. Thank you. This’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc two thousand fourteen the non-profit technology conference. Thank you very much for being with us and my thanks to everyone at antenna. Non-profit technology network got some live listener love stafford, virginia, new bern, north carolina and new york new york live listener love to you and new york. Thank you for being with us. There’s more if i didn’t shut you out yet, i i shall generosity siri’s they host multi charity five k runs and walks. And part of what they provide is the charity support team for their charity partners. The charities that are running events with them. You talk to the charity support team and they help you with the fund-raising part ofyour five k event. They help you get more runners and they help you empower the runners and train the runners so that the runners are getting more donors on dh. Naturally, there is on online component to this you have a dashboard in online management, but there’s also the charity support team that you can talk to. And i like that you could talk to the a c o david lind. He is at seven one eight five o six. Nine, triple seven and on the web generosity siri’s dot com can we get off alice’s back? They’ve had an enormous fortunate spike in dollars. And donors from the ice bucket challenge. So they have got incredible issues enviable, incredible issues i would like us to. Ah, give them the benefit of our doubt about what’s going to happen, stop questioning whether they’re capable of managing this and let’s see how they manage it. If they were toyota or macy’s, i think we wouldn’t be questioning whether they can manage this. We’d just be congratulating and we’d be in awe. This came tio a l s totally organically through a patient. So they because it was not originally a nail s strategy your or scheme the ice bucket challenge. So they did not have a plan let’s. See how they manage it. Let’s. Give them the benefit of our doubt. I’ve got a video on this at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two for friday, twelfth of september thirty sixth show of the year. My goodness. Thirty six holy cow, you touch tomb he’s a senior manager at wagner cps. He has his mba master of accountancy and is a certified public accountant. He’s also a certified fraud examiner. He works exclusively with tax exempt organizations and oversees the firm’s form. Nine ninety nationwide preparation practice eat manages wagner’s, new york city office they’re at wagner, cps dot com he’s here in the studio to talk about the irs and how it helps your marketing. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me here. My pleasure, it’s. Cool. Glad you’re in studio um, the form nine ninety this is i thought this was strictly a burden and something to be not avoid it. We can’t avoid it, but there’s something to be done and kind of put in the closet. You don’t think so well, you’re right. A lot ofthe organization leaders thinks that it’s a burden and actually it’s a great opportunity for organizations to show the world that all the good things that they’ve done in the in the year, and then it’s also a good opportunity for them. Um, tell the world how well they there run and in the past this forest scene justus the farm files it tires and on ly to be shown ah, potential donors or anybody coming to your office and basically asking for it. And now it’s, vitally available on the web especially the most common is the guide. Star and because it’s out there it’s, it gives an opportunity for organization to the marketing tool ok, and not only guide store, but state attorneys general, a lot of them have them. A lot of organizations put the nine ninety on their site themselves. Yes, it’s a sort of transparency, for example, in new york every not-for-profits registered with new york that files annual report with the state off new york they’re nine ninety, along with their financial statements, are on their website. So so your advice is to think of this as a marketing tool it’s an opportunity? Yes, so if you see it as just a bird than and as most organizations currently do and don’t get enough attention, it can potentially hurt you. So thing about is, some organizations for some organ says is true that the nine nineties seen more than they’ll annual report, but they spent all the time and energy on the annual report make it perfect, but they only spent maybe a fraction off the time to get the nine ninety ready for filing, and we’re gonna have some time to talk about this, but you even suggest that people beyond accountants contribute to the nine. Ninety their final way. We’ll have a chance to talk about that. That’s. I love that advice. Okay, let’s. Just make sure that everybody understands what we mean. Nine, ninety, there are there are three nine nineties and you’re the expert. So when were you acquainted with the three? Yeah, the. Depending on the size ofthe organization, the organizations can file three different ninety forms. If they are under fifty thousand dollars in revenue. What they can do is they can file that form called nine ninety and which is also known as the postcard return and it’s, just basic information and a statement saying that the revenues were less than fifty thousand dollars. Okay, and with some states like new york, if you are over twenty five, then you have to file the night. Nineties eve, which is the next step. So organizations that are in revenues under two hundred thousand and in assets under five hundred thousand, they can file this form nine. Ninety easy, which is a shorter form, and the larger organization about the threshold can fire. They have to file the form. Nine. Ninety, which is longer. So just like we have individual ten forties and ten. Forty. Easy. Exactly. Nine. Ninety and nine. Ninety. Easy exit and then also the nine. Ninety n write really small for the under fifty thousand dollars in revenue. Right? But you raise an interesting point. Sometimes. It’s state regulations that govern which nine. Ninety you have to submit is that is that right? Could you mention new york? Yeah, a certain threshold for the easy. Right. So you have to look to your state and also to the i r s exactly. Okay, exactly. We’re not talking about the nine, ninety filing requirements here. Just i digressed a little bit. We have talked about the nine, ninety in the past, especially with jean takagi. So you could find those shows in the past. But we want to focus on the nine, ninety as a marketing tool. And part of your advice is that even if you’re able tio file the shorter form, you might want to do one that’s the next level up. Exactly. It depends on the purpose ofthe how you’re going to use it. For example, if you are a small organization under fifty thousand dollars, you may want to file the nine. Ninety. Easy to get your nine. Ninety on guidestar. So or ah, a lot of foundations. For example, they would like you to submit a nine. Ninety easy or a nine ninety with grant applications. And, um, that’s. Another reason why you may want to file piled the longer form in this case. And if you are a going after donors and even if you are a small organization, if you can show that guarding all these good covenant practices and all these other things is just like, well, run is a large organization, i think it’s also helps it it’s getting funds. But if you do not have a purpose, i think it always cost more time and money to file the longer form. So i think it has to be ah, i violated in for individual circumstances. Fair enough, but something to consider and i just love the different perspective is why wantto have you on the show different perspective of the nine. Ninety that it’s, you know, as we said, it’s not just no longer just buried anymore, but to look at it as a zoo marketing tool and therefore it has to be consistent with all your other, the what is the traditional marketing tools? Right. Exactly. Yeah, for example, you don’t want toe, um, confused the word with sending mixed messages. If your annual report is saying one thing and if you’re ninety saying another thing than it confuses people. So that’s one ofthe reasons why certain parts ofthe the nine ninety should not be done prepared by the countenance. It should be prepared by people who is also preparing other other marketing materials. Excellent. Okay, so let’s, get into some of the different place is in the form nine. Ninety where you see marketing opportunities. What’s the you like the program service. Accomplishments? Yeah. Where? Where is that? Where will people find that? On the night that could be on the second page off the farm i love. I love that you’re a nine. Ninety expert. You he doesn’t. He does not have the nine. Ninety here in front of him. Which is what, like seventeen pages or something leaves twelve. Oh, on that schedule and then this morning anymore he does not have a nine. Ninety here. In studio with me is so when i ask him. Like, what section is it? Andi knows the page, so i okay, you have the expert here, all of that. All right. So you know your your practices nine nineties. I love it. All right, so the program service accomplishments your program serves accomplished. Mons to page two parking three. Beautiful. Basically organisations get the chance here. This is like the free marketing opportunity to tell the world the all the great things that you have accomplished in the in the past year and latto off times despite tires instructions. This is one place iris helps you market, as you mentioned, is in the instructions i response you to be specific. They want you to use non financial data, but a lot of organizations just, um they see there’s a burden. So year after year, they repeat the same thing. And the and the nine, ninety preparation is buried in their finance department or of the outside consultant who’s doing it right. And they just want to know when it’s done exactly what you can’t fill. You need a number for page four, line ninety three. I don’t know. Like, you know, you probably rolling your eyes. Oh, my god. What an amateur question. Ninety. Three’s not on page four, for chrissake, but that is just the thing is just buried until it’s ready for signature. Basically right? It’s? Not so who? So we can have program officers doing the program service accomplishment section or something like that, right? So basic the its funding toe say this take like a food pantry. It’s one thing to say that you have served meals to low income people in the community and it’s another thing toe give some more specific you can say piela, sir, different fifty thousand different people eighty thousand meals during the years, so it gives more, more basically more impact. And people are seeing this on guide star and on your website. And of course, it needs to be consistent with your other marketing material. Exactly. School what? What else? What other opportunities to see in that section? So i’ll give you another example of that because, like, if you’re a membership organization, try to use it to recruit members and you fear with conferences wanting to say you spent hundred thousand dollars in this conference is another thing to say. Our conference was attended by twelve hundred people. We had sixty different sessions, you can name some off the station, including x y z. And we also had to networking opportunities again like this is anything you can tell tow people join you as a member for a membership organization and ah, get anything that you see that would the track donors are whoever you are, thank comedians like. All right, cool. Very good governance. There’s the governance section is this the section on the nine. Ninety relieve the governance? Yeah. There’s a section on ninety nine on the nine. Ninety deaths as out ofthe questions about the government’s reaction number. Part part six off your nine nine. Ah, basically, in that part, it’s asking out ofthe question some of these questions, such as, um, whistle blower policy and document destruction policy. These can be mandated by other other ah, um, crack sarbanes oxley example on the other thirty is that all or state law, right? And new york will start mandating certain certain policies there as well. And, um, some off thes policies are very easy to add up. So their templates out there it’s not a huge burden. And i encourage every every organization, if do they do not have a policy out there? Just go look for a sample adapted and checked the box yes to show that they’re they’re well, fellas run and well covered and thiss foot reduced the potential all the risk and it’s also important to use that section toe basically solicit new board members because one off the users off this maybe perspective. What members? Looking at your nine ninety team to see if this is an organ xero i want to join this organization, are they so they know what they’re thinking? It might be exposed to any risk by joining terms. All right, we gotta go out for a break. You’re gonna do some more live listener love there’s so much i got to squeeze him in tuscaloosa, alabama. Welcome live. Listen love to you. I don’t think you’ve been with us before tuscaloosa. Welcome and jersey city, new jersey it’s, the birthplace of my my dad. He was born in greenville hospital, jersey city, new jersey, and langley malaria, british columbia. You’re back with us. Live listener left all of you. We got some or stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. If you have big dreams in a small budget tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio, i d’oh. I’m adam braun, founder of pencils of promise. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent let’s, go abroad with live listener love belgium, belgium we can’t see your city i thought that was a pretty open society. They’re belgium, but you’re you’re blocked but welcome live listen love to you, let’s, go to china, where i send ni hao to shanghai, chengdu, korea, multiple listeners in korea, as always, including soul, anya, haserot and japan, multiple listeners tokyo, akashi and others konnichi juana and, of course, podcast pleasantries to those of you listening in the time shift wherever you may be, ninety five hundred of you podcast pleasantries to you yeah, let’s, let’s keep talking about the governance section is that this is not a free form narrative section like the program service accomplishments it it certain parts ofthe it are free form, for example, one off the question there is, like what’s. Your policy is to review the night ninety so in there you can explain, like how what process off leaving tonight ninety like does every boardmember sees the nine ninety who who looks at it, who prepares its who reviews it and how it gets wild the other free form. Part is the conflict of interest policy. You can have different types. And who’s who’s monitoring. It goes who’s looking at it. And another part is the determination off the executive compensation. So what’s the policy around that looking at comparables like, do you have independent comity? Looking at it and documenting this decisions? There are some some freeform parts over then within governments. Governance? Of course. Right. And we have talked about, i think, all those subjects that you just mentioned with jean takagi when we’ve spent time on the appropriate governance and oversight. So this is a perfect dovetail. Um, how about you have something about the statement of functional expenses? Where will we find that? If we if we want to go into the nine ninety, um, that would be now little people. Nine off the ninety basically and, um, statement functional expenses i believe you covered over had met in in your previous shows. We have the we had the three signers of the overhead myth. That was on september sixteenth. The ceos of charity navigator, guidestar and better business bureau wise giving alliance. Yeah. So basically, i want to refer to that which is a great point they made and ah, out ofthe not-for-profits are too worried about their program service percentage and that, um, that they want to put like, as they reflect, i guess, everything they can in the program, and they should know that if it’s correct so but sometimes like it gets to a point where they wanna look at things which is more right, grey and, you know, they have the natural incentive to put more into program and not in management, general fund-raising and that doesn’t necessarily reflect the truth and ah, that’s area um, it’s sophisticated donor-centric viewing and i ninety can tell that certain things are not correct there because certain things such as an audit, it has to be a hundred percent management general, accounting and audit is that so? I think it says point important here is that that schedule is ah done correctly. So that’s a potential donor funders looking at it shouldn’t question anything accurate, so get on dh that works is the key. That was the whole message of the overhead myth letter is don’t feel you have to devote everything to to program at the expense of overhead, which can be very, very important. Tis body. So you have sophisticated people looking at your nine ninety, and you’re thinking of it as marketing. Keep that. Keep that in mind. We have to. We have just a couple minutes left. There’s a part of the nine. Ninety that you call a playground? Yes, that is that. That would be schedule. Oh, that’s a place where you can put anything that an organization can beat anything they want in there, so ah, i would use it as a what is it called? What is schedule? Oh, called, huh? I think it’s just called a schedule a it’s, like a supplementary information thinkit’s supplementary in for american. And basically, i would encourage organizations toe explain anything that might look unusual on the on the on the nine. Nineteen. Okay, for example, let’s say if they are starting a capital campaign and in that initial year they wouldn’t necessarily have the revenue yet, but they all these fund-raising expenses, so if they’re fund-raising expense ratio is unusually high and this might be a place to explain that they’re going through the skips campaign and that they they’re also informing the public that they’re doing this. Artist. Another placed to use that for that. So outstanding a really interesting perspective on form nine ninety thank you very much. Thank you for my pleasure. You duitz doom senior manager at wagner cpas, manager of their new york city office. There at wagner cps dot com next week. Buyer beware. You’re purchasing policies and how to do better. Also, maria simple returns on managing a spike whatever that means for you in numbers in potential donors. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com. Thanks again to our listener of the week, john fulwider. Remember generosity siri’s and their charity support team multi-channel eighty five k runs and walks, generosity siri’s dot com. Our creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff sam labor, which is our line producer, shows social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell. Social marketing. The remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules, this music it’s by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Duitz they didn’t even think that shooting getting ding, ding, ding, ding. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get a drink. E-giving you could. Come, join us for the thirteenth annual visual for international peace and ecology. On sunday, september twenty one, from nine a, m to six p, m celebration of live music and dance performances spoke the word human peace sign. Art installations in a world peace flag ceremony that celebrates the united nations international day of peace. That’s sunday, september twenty one from nine a, m to six p. M central park numbered band cell, by the way, says the fountain. For more information or volunteer, go to www. Dot vigil number four. International peace dot org’s, that’s, the number four in the earl, or call to want to chip in to five, four, three two that’s, a two one, two, triple two, five, four, three two we’ll see you there, buy-in metoo. Key. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www. Dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking.

Nonprofit Radio Knowledge Base: Online Engagement

 

Video interview with Beth Kanter, master trainer & speaker, from Fundraising Day 2013: Online Engagement & Measurement

Aria Finger, DoSomething.org‘s COO on Mobile Engagement

Amy Sample Ward, Nonprofit Radio’s social media contributor & CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN): Get Engaged

Video with Jay Frost, CEO of fundraisinginfo.com, from Fundraising Day 2012: From Engagement to Action Online

Shari Ilsen & Lauren Girardin, from NTC, the Nonprofit Technology Conference on “Engagement: Motivating & Measuring”

Nonprofit Radio for August 1, 2014: Offline Drives Online & Manage Those Expectations

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Richard Becker: Offline Drives Online

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Multichannel engagement is essential. You know this. Drawing from multiple cases, Richard Becker reveals strategies to stand out from your competition for mindshare and have online engagement impact offline outcomes, like giving and volunteering. Richard is president of Target Analytics. (Recorded at Blackbaud’s bbcon conference).df

 

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 Maria Semple: Manage Those Expectations

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Maria Semple, our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder, shares expectation management tips. How do you help staff and your board understand what prospect research can and can’t do? 

Here’s a meme from APRA Indiana that got Maria thinking about misconceptions: Prospect Research meme

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the itching and redness of dermatitis her peta for miss if it came within my ken that you had missed today’s show offline drives on mine multi-channel engagement is essential, you know that drawing from multiple cases, richard becker reveals strategies to stand out from your competition for mind share and have online engagement impact offline outcomes like giving and volunteering. Richard is president of target analytics, and that was recorded at blackbaud sbi become unconference and manage those expectations. Maria simple, our prospect research contributor and the prospect finder shares expectation management tips. How do you help staff and you’re bored? Understand what prospect research can and can’t do for you on tony’s, take two throwback thursdays, responsive by generosity, siri’s hosting multi charity five k runs and walks here’s my interview from bb con last year. This is from last october with richard becker welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb con twenty thirteen with the gaylord convention center outside washington d c in national harbor, maryland, my guest is richard becker he’s, president of target analytics, part of blackbaud and his session topic today is dr offline response with online advertising. Richard becker, welcome to the show. Thanks, tony appreciate it. That’s a pleasure to have you, um, explain what’s the relationship between target analytics and blackbaud case i i said it wrong. Yeah, target analytics is one of the four business units within blackbaud and we used data and analytic driven insights to create fund-raising solutions for our clients, affecting both their direct marketing dripping fund-raising as well as their major gift ribbon. Fund-raising okay, you probably know george durney then i do know george, director of sales at target analytics, right? He’s fantastic he’s actually looking for a job, you could tell him, i said that he wants to host a washington, d c morning show so he may not be your director of sales very much longer and that that’s, you don’t hear it from me back-up we’re talking about everything. Multi-channel yes, right online and offline. Why is a single channel and let’s take the more traditional offline no longer satisfactory? Well, i think the consumer preferences, they’re changing, particularly around the different generations, the traditional target for fund-raising are going to be your older individuals sixty, sixty five or higher and traditionally postal based direct mail in telemarketing have been great channels to capture those individuals, but as the newer generations come forward, obviously they’re in tune with social media, web based purchasing and web based giving and so there’s a new marketing mix, it needs to come together to achieve the type of response and conversion rates that direct marketers are looking for. What if we think our constituency is mostly sixty and over, or or or if not, mostly for the proportion that is sixty and over, should we still be used relying predominantly on the traditional male it’s a great question and our research and the evidence that we have with the solutions that we bring to bear, show that a significant portion of that older demographic sixty year older are in fact online and are, in fact influenced by email marketing, social media and online advertising. Do you have ah, any any stats on the penetration of of social media among the sixty year on over generation? Yeah, i mean it’s clearly not. Going to be as high as some of these younger democrats, but i do know it’s also growing, if you know the growth rate, maybe it is absolutely growing and it’s growing double digits year over year, okay, the key here, though, is really to understand the impact on some of these online channels, whether it be online advertising, email and the like and social media on those offline channels, because here’s the important thing it’s not that this older demographic is significantly migrating, they’re donorsearch hey, viewer or they’re giving to those online channels they’re not. But what we’re able to prove with some of the newer solutions and the technology that we have is that the brand impact of putting email in front of them, the brand favorability gained by putting online advertising in front of them winds up affecting they’re offline response, whether it be and increase the likelihood to open and convert that postal based direct mail piece or that outbound telemarketing call. So there’s a correlation between these online channels and he’s off line channels and a big mistake that a lot of the direct marketing and easy with the non-profits are prone to make. Is by operating and silos often times, particularly in organizations that are maturing, they’ll have an online group and an offline group. And what we’re showing our clients is that you really need to bring those groups together because the impact of online on offline is really the magic. Okay, well, let’s say a lot more about this, how do we start to integrate the two so that we’re getting the impact that that you’re talking about? Sure, we did have a really interesting use case today in our session, we showcase the university of indiana environmental defense fund care and ah, the example we uses is leveraging online advertising, and i’m going to take a step back and and we’ll talk a little bit first about the evolution of online advertising metoo for most folks, they think of online advertising, as i want to put my ads on a web destination where i think my constituents might be. So, for example, you believe that you want to go over older, wealthier individuals who are likely to give to your organization. So you may think i should advertise on the new york times or a site where that type of demographic might be attracted. The challenges that’s really akin to putting up a billboard on the side of the highway in the hopes that those individuals who who see her ad also have ah, philanthropic component of them let’s face it, not it not everybody sixty years or older with capacity is necessarily philanthropic. So it’s really it’s more of a mass advertising play the legacy way things are done. What most people don’t realize is the technology has really evolved considerably over the last eighteen months. And so, for example, with online advertising, what we’re able to do now is to actually taken input file of individuals based on name and postal address and target them wherever they go online and put online advertising front of them. So let’s think of the use case. In the case of the university of indiana, they wanted teo put together a program, a direct mail program targeting their alumni, and so our value proposition was essentially look, you know, before that mail piece just winds up showing up at their door let’s reinforce your brand and remind people about their affinity with the university of indiana so before they targeted those four hundred roughly four hundred fifty thousand alumni with that direct mail piece, we took those exact individuals, we found them online, and we served online advertising to them in the months leading up to the direct mail piece showing up at the door. And ultimately what the results show is for those individuals that we did put online advertising in front of us. It’s significantly outperformed the group that could have received online advertising and didn’t. So we have concrete evidence via metrics that show that you can receive, you know, response rates that air fifteen, twenty, twenty five percent hyre when you’re reinforcing your brand to the same exact individuals who will ultimately receive that postal base, direct mail piece or telemarketing call, all right, now, what do you need to have in place to take advantage of this? Typically, you know that. So in that example, we run campaigns in two ways. Typically a client wants to market to their existing crn be so they may be it’s a reactivation campaign, maybe they’re converting. Ah, part event participants to donors, whatever, whatever the gist of their campaign is, and we’ll take in input file out of their c. R m that’s one avenue in which we could run the campaign. The other would be the if it’s a acquisition campaign, we can create a list of qualified prospects based on the analytics that we’ve got in target analytics and say these are likely first time donors your organization let’s, target them at this point in time were typically looking for clients with a relatively sizeable file, as that is an input file for us to target. I believe the smallest file that we’ve processed in a single campaign would be about three hundred thousand or so constituents so it’s really oriented towards the mid to large market. Okay, what is the small and midsize shop and and recognizing that all the listeners are not blackbaud customers, what do they need to have in place? What? What kind of conversation do they need to have with their database crn provider to execute what we’re talking about? Yeah, i mean, so typically, you know, we even the smaller clients we say look, let’s, get to a volume that achieves your marketing objectives. So even if it’s a, even if they have a smaller house file, if they’re smaller clients fifty thousand a hundred thousand will say, look, we’ll take that part of your file will augment it with donor of prospects that look like individuals on your file to get to that minimum threshold, and we’ll run her campaign against the broader spectrum. There are alternatives, there are clients obviously, who were going to be on the small side and not be ableto afford to produce a file that size what we want, we might use a different medium, then i’ll give you ah, slightly different example, but keeping in the spirit of of these new emerging channels, we had a client who had a specific cause in the greater new york city area and a specifically wanted to target. Based on that geography, the affinity for their cause was in and around central park. So rather than using online advertising, we actually used a geographic based mobile advertising solution that we have that could pinpoint individuals that we’re using they’re handheld devices within a specific radius around central park, and we were able to target them that way, so there are different alternatives to get these very specific audiences. It could be again the folks in your serum a prospect. Cool folks in an individual of, you know, geographic area. All right, you got the data very, very many different, very finite, yes, okay. E-giving, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. E-giving cubine this’s. The way we’re hosting a party in my french nufer city, guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back. French is a common language. Yes, they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and it comes desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them, shed this story. Join us, a part of my french new york city. Every monday from one to two p, m. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping countries. People be better business people. Dahna you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Yeah. Dahna we were talking about advertising specifically, but weaken apply this to other combinations of online and offline. Absolutely, i mean the most predominant channel that’s been traditionally used. His email and that’s been used, i think, with mixed results, the allure of email, particularly around for a smaller midsize non-profit is that there are no limitations to the size of audience you, khun target, and in many ways it’s a free channel there’s not a whole heck of a lot of cost associated with sending him out. Email that’s the good news. The bad news is it’s not an unbelievably, you know, effective channel more often than not, because it is free and there’s so much competition for mindshare and ah, your email may or may not break through all the noise that’s in that e mail box, but similar to the online advertising solution that i mentioned, you have to look at email in the same contacts that it could be supporting other channels. So whether or not you’re getting click through and conversion buy-in email that you’re sending the trick is to understand the impact that email is having when that postal based direct mail piece shows up. For that telemarketing call shows up and i keep dwelling on that because there was an interesting statistic when we opened up bb kahn and i believe kevin mooney stood on the stage and i believe the quote that he used was that online is growing at four times the rate of offline channels or something to that effect true is that maybe the reality is eighty percent e-giving is still on these offline channels, and we cannot ignore them. And so the big mantra that we have is you absolutely have to embrace these online channels and they are viable, and they’re going to continue to evolve and become a greater of greater importance to the marketing mix moving forward. But as we sit here today, the real importance of those online channels isn’t necessarily the money you’re raising directly through them. But the impact those online channels are having on your legacy channels male and telemarket so crucial toe have coordination and just really accurate record keeping. Who got who got what? When so we can look at our at each individual organization, see what the degree of correlation is for our constituents. Absolutely that’s really what’s been missing up until this point is the measurement between these disparate channels. I think where we started, our conversation was too many of our clients will say, well, you know, we looked at the click through and conversion rates for online advertising, and the campaign didn’t pay for itself where we sent an email and it didn’t raise a whole lot of money or we set up a facebook page and we have, you know, five million followers, but we’re not getting a lot of donations. You cannot look at those individual channels and evaluate them stand alone, you have to be able to evaluate them and their impact across all of your channels and it’s really only been within the last twelve to eighteen months that we’ve been able to develop a system and a technology platform that can evaluate these various channels as they work with each other, the actual outcome on the other in the other channels, more traditional channels also takes a mindset change to recognize that the facebook page and the twitter stream or not the outcome? Absolutely, we call it a closed loop report where we’re closing the loop across all these channels where we’re looking at at what has occurred amongst them were looking at the commonality of who is utilizing them, the sequencing of how they’re using and then the ultimate outcome at us at the consumer household level. Did they donate? Did they participate? Did they take the action you wanted? And then we’re able to correlate that across all the channels and produce meaningful reports that really showed the return on your advertising? Spend the return on your marketing investment across all those channels and that’s really the big new thing, you know, over the last twelve to eighteen months, the ability to quantify that give a market or confidence that their marketing mix is either working or not. And it’s funny, you know, the the online advertising solution that i gave you, we have folks in the audience, he said, you know, will this work for me or, you know, richard, you gave him an example, but university and yet already has strong brand recognition or, you know, i’m a cancer related cause, but i know i’m not one of the top three or four i get why it would work for them, but i’m not sure it worked. For me and, you know, i often jokingly say to folks, i’ll tell you one way or the other, i mean, now at least you’re in a position that whether this campaign works or not, you have meaningful metrics at the end of the campaign that either prove you’re right or you’re wrong, that it was going to work, it wasn’t going to work it’s no longer guesswork and, you know, a true direct marketer doesn’t like to guess we like fact based elearning another case that you shared was environmental defense fund. What was the lessons there? What happened? Fantastic client and an example of a client who really gets had to integrate their channels. We spent some time today reviewing the specific campaign that they ran with us, and i’ll first talk a little bit about something that they do so well on that’s their creative it starts with the online banner advertising that they created all consistent, no matter which creative they used out of the portfolio of about fifteen different ads that they have, they used a very nice visual of a polar bear, and sometimes the polar bear was doing different things, but it’s always a polar bear the e d f logo displayed prominently in the call to action crystal clear donate here it was very simple, streamlined, colorful gets your attention that’s the first thing they did right, the second thing they do right where the wheels typically fall off for a non-profit is, they made sure that the direct mail piece correlated one hundred percent toe what folks were seeing online. So if you had those online impressions and we know that getting seven to fifteen online ad impressions per household per month is highly impactful for when that toe to make the action happen when the direct mail piece comes. So imagine you’re getting seven to fifteen of these ad impressions for, you know, thirty, sixty, ninety days before that direct mail piece comes in every time across multiple change, and it could be any site that you go to any site you go to, doesn’t matter whether you’re on facebook, new york times, we’re going to find you, and we’re going to put that out because it’s audience baste, not site based and butt your butt. Cdf is doing such a good job because it’s it’s it’s always the same. Visual and creative that you’re seeing, and then so what they do so well is when that direct mail piece comes. The direct mail piece is one hundred percent aligned with what you’ve been experiencing an online have already seen it. There wasn’t the same visual. I’m just able to hold it the same messaging, the same type of ass and you know, it’s it’s tightly wound up and what’s great is even the landing page another mistake, folks may hey, is if you do click through the ad or maybe you see the ad, you think about it or you get the dural direct mail piece and you go you know what? I don’t write the check. Let me go to the website the landing page exactly the same polar bear messaging. The same color scheme the same. We have statistics that show that just the slightest change. If they were to move from the polar bear to a seal or just any other color schematics, it could blow the success of the program, you know, completely the wrong way. But it was so good about aligning their online and off china line child together and have a true integrated multi-channel marketing strategy. That’s. Why? They see such great success rates and that’s. Why one of their they’re one of the leaders in the d m space? What kind of outcomes did they have? You know, they see what most of our other clients going to, you know, ten to fifteen percent lift in response and conversion rates for those individuals who are part of ah multi-channel strategy as opposed to a mano channel strategy. Okay. And another case you shared was care or what? Lessons there. You know, very similar. They have obviously a very compelling story and visual behind their mission, and they use it quite successfully, much like e t f really strong coordination across the offline and online channels and and their success and their strategy really mirrors in many ways what we see with the df. So another great example. Okay, we still have a couple minutes left. What more can you tell us about working this multi-channel strategies? Yeah. I mean, there’s, a lot of talk about multi-channel strategy. And really, at the end of the day where what we see is clients need help in, you know, bringing it all together and measuring it. I mentioned earlier that you know, the biggest challenge i see is that you have the old guard, the folks that are so adept at using, you know, postal bets, direct mail to dr results. And they continue to see challenges in the response rates that they’re getting in the conversion rates that they’re getting. Some of that is, you know, the headwinds of the economy. Some of that are changing demographics. Some of that, you know, increased competition for, you know, dollars. You know, and then separately, though, you’ll see the these organizations standing up a separate online group, and then they do them such self such a disservice. And even when they hire a third party agencies, you’ll have well, we have an offline agency, and then we have an online agency, and so immediately you see how the creative is not going to be linked together. The story that they’re telling is going to be different, the channel measure is going to be different, and so we’re seeing success with our clients are those who are having that ah ha moment they’re saying, look, this is really one thing, and we need a level of coordination amongst our online and offline marketing. We need measurement across them. We need standardized metrics across them. And i think once they get to that kind of epiphany that’s where it really comes together for them and they get an optimal outcome, okay, very key and consistent messages are consistency across andi now, the ability to measure what? What? I guess what created this revolution just twelve or eighteen months ago? Where? How come we come? We couldn’t do it then. Yeah, you know. I think there’s been some advances in technology, you know, going back to the online advertising, you know, the the ability to track someone’s online activity at a consumer household level and link that back to their offline activity. It didn’t exist eighteen or twenty four months ago, and they’re ah, our data partner. Oh, our our vendor partner for the underlying technology is a firm called data logics, and they’ve developed the secret sauce, if you will, that enables us to link online and offline activity and to be able to target online advertising at a household level they’ve had, you know, it’s it’s interesting if you go back a year year and a half ago, there was a big article right before actually, facebook went public that gm had pulled, like forty million dollars or something like that of online advertising budget away from facebook because they just didn’t think they were getting the type of return that they needed, and the reality was they didn’t know what type of return because there was no technology in place to measure that. And so data logics now aki partner of not only ours, but facebook helping them quantify and measure the type of impact those online impressions and there was this facebook likes and that facebook activity has on purchasing a gm car, purchasing consumer packaged goods off the shelf in a in a target or a food store, and they’re making that linkage and they’re helping us make that linkage for our clients on and the interactions they have with their donors. This is why we’re all seeing ads online for sites where we’ve been, but maybe we didn’t make the purchase decision or even i’m not sure i see them as much when i have made the purchase choice, but i know if i go to a resort or a hotel or something, and i’m just browsing around to see what kind of packages they have and what the rooms look like i’m going, i’m going to see that resort in my online advertising, so we’ve taken this step further. So what you described is re marketing, and i would say that remark, it’s probably been around, you know, two years or so that’s you went to a website, they put a cookie on your device, and now they’re following you around and placing advertising within your online experience attempting you typically to come back and taken action what’s interesting is, you know and that’s phenomenal. But that necessitated you go into the website to begin with and more than likely would have been helpful if you register registered there and offered your name and address so they could profile you and figure out, you know, what’s going toward you back. Okay? The solution i describe is you never had to have gone to the university of indiana website. You never had to visit the environmental defense fund website because we’re starting with name and postal address and using this kind of shared cookie poul that we’ve developed amongst, you know, thousands and thousands of web sites out there were able to identify you whether you were a former website, visitor or not, and will always know who you are and be able to link that back to create a rich profile. There are things there are people who think you’re the devil they might you know it. So let me give you the flipside of that, right. People get concerned about privacy. Everything we talk about is obviously compliant. Aiba, you know, internet advertising bureau compliant. The reality is, if you’re a consumer, and if you’re really thought about it, you’re going to get online advertising. You’re going to get solicitations via the mail, wouldn’t you rather they be relevant, then? Just random? This just, yeah, i would like to think i would, but there’s just something about being followed around the way i described when i had gone to the site and you said they place the cooking yet just when i when that ad pops up on the next site that i’ve been to it’s just something that feels unseemly about it, i feel a little violated. I feel a little compromised. We’re going to get philosophical here from wait a couple minutes, but we’ll keep labbate believe it this way. Ah, there may be a website you enjoy maybe it’s, maybe it’s, the new york times, maybe it’s, the atlanta journal constitution or whatever new site you go to, maybe there is, you know, social websites, you goto they’re free more often than not. You’re enjoying the benefit of content that they’re providing you oh, and not paying for it, but they have to make money and that money is going to come. Through contextual and behaviour based advertising, and so to keep the things that you want free, you’re trading off a little bit of your privacy, perhaps for something like relevant advertising. So i suppose we could move to a model where there’s no advertising or we could move to a model where advertising is totally random. But i think than the internet probably loses some of the no cost, low cost enjoyment that you receive, and you’d move to a model where you’re going to pay for one way or the other. Okay, what you want leave us with? Well, first, let me just say i appreciate the forum i thinkit’s a great richard, you know, this is fantastic and, ah, you know, the direct marketing spaces changing quickly and people could get intimidated by the wide array of options that are out there twitter, facebook linked in online advertising so many avenues to touch clients and i think it’s an exciting time when the technology finally catches up and allows us to embrace these channels in a way that can produce a tangible r a y for our clients so that they’re not just wasting money and we know that that’s more important for our non-profit clients and then any other vertical out there. So i think it’s exciting time. Richard becker is president of target analytics at blackbaud richard, thanks so much for being a guest. Thanks, tony. Been a pleasure. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty thirteen, thanks so much for listening. My thanks, as always to everybody had become the show is so full that it’s taken me this long to get to use that that becker interview on de so, but grateful to everybody at blackboard and b b gone generosity siri’s you know them, they host multi charity peer-to-peer five k runs and walks if you’re using summer to plan for your fall fund-raising if you’re small and midsize shop that can’t generate enough activity to have your own five k event, think about generosity siri’s they have events coming up in new jersey, miami, atlanta, new york city, philadelphia and toronto. If you think a run walk might make sense for you, talk to dave lynn he’s the ceo tell him you’re from non-profit radio he’s at seven one eight five o six nine triple seven or generosity siri’s dot com we’ve got throwback thursdays on the facebook page we’re featuring past interviews that i think deserve your attention again. Each thursday on facebook last week was andrew noise he’s, the facebook director of government relations at least he was at the time, which is essentially lobbying, but he didn’t like to call it that. Um, yes, throwback thursdays on the facebook page every thursday. I remember when i used to have to say facebook dot com slash tony martignetti non-profit radio, but those were those were the old days four years ago. So check out throwback thursday for best guests from our archive and that is tony’s take two for friday, first of august thirtieth show of the year with me now is maria simple? You know maria she’s, a prospect finder, she’s a trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her website is the prospect finder dot com and her book is panning for gold. Find your best donorsearch prospects now exclamation mark she’s, our doi and of dirt cheap and free. You can follow her on twitter at maria simple maria simple. Welcome back. Hey there, tony. How are you? I’m doing terrific, lee. Well, how are you? Today? Oh, just fine. Thanks. Excellent. Excellent. And thank you again for joining me on the two hundredth show a couple weeks ago. Oh, that was fun. But as i said, i do expect to be brought in in person to enjoy the party in the studio next time. Okay, well, you know, i could have invited you for the two hundred. No, i didn’t. I guess i never think of it because you’re always i know you’re just over in jersey. I could have had you all right. There was there was nothing intentional. It was my was my oversight. I could have you over for sure. I’m just giving you a hard time right now, but i know i feel bad. All right? I’m over it. Um, we want to talk about some expectation setting you. You feel like there’s a disconnect between what prospect researchers do and what the world thinks they do. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, i thought we’d spend a few minutes talking about that today because i came across a very interesting mean on the internet on actually thie apra, indiana, which is the association of professional researchers for advancement on their facebook page and this. It was a name that was going back a long time ago. Back in twenty twelve, i think. And so it kind of had a six pictures, and one was a picture that said what my friends think i do what my mom thinks i do, what fundraisers think i do what my kids think i do, what i think i do and what i really dio and on that final photo, it’s a woman sitting in front of the computer, you know, pulling her hair out. Okay, so this guy this got you thinking right? So it got me thinking about well, you know, what do you know? People have a very big misunderstanding about what prospect researchers do, or even about what the role of prospect researches in the overall development cycle. And, you know, why do we need it? How can we benefit? Some boards are actually afraid of it, right? Because they think, well, we shouldn’t be, you know, snooping into other people’s business. And what if they find out? Yes. And we’ve talked about this before when it was in the popular press. I know it was at the new york times. Or maybe was the times that had an article about prospect research, you know, going back a couple of years. Yeah, i think i think there was and, you know, people continue to have this misconception, and even, you know, as you said, there was there was this article in the times, so even people who are in the business of gathering information, in fact, when i’m gathering information, i try and think of myself as an investigative reporter, right? Try and be as objective as possible about the data that i come across, not really pass any judgment on it or put any subjective spin on any of the information i’m i’m reporting in any of my profile. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I i do remember us talking about it. Uh, and then it came up again. I don’t think you and i talked about it, but came up again. Ah, sometime last year when there was a woman named ah, you jet clark and she had lived at new york presbyterian hospital for i think it was last fifteen or twenty years of her life. For some things, you just became a resident of the hospital, even though she wasn’t ill on dh. There were questions about what types of information the hospital gathered about her and how they gathered it, and whether you know meetings and things with her through these decades that that she was living there, and that that that brought it up again, too. And i blogged that, too, and i, by the way, i i thought new york presbyterian hospital didn’t do anything that a charity shouldn’t be doing with somebody who’s living in their facility for fifteen, twenty years, she was wealthy, and she was good. She was a good potential donor, right? Right? I mean, and then you think about some of the assisted living facilities, you know, extend that a little further, right there they are themselves nonprofit organizations as well. So yeah, i mean, you have to think about sensitivity of information. Yet if somebody is really using your services for that extended period of time and that engaged with your organization, whether they be a consumer or a donor over a fifteen twenty year period of time, certainly there’s a lot of cultivation and conversations that happen on dh. You know, they could have probably written donor profiles on her without ever sitting in front of a computer? Yeah, for sure. And and that type of information gathering not only does happen what should happen, they were i would say that they were negligent if they hadn’t. I mean, she lived there all those years. I mean, yeah, just she’s a wealthy woman on dh she’s lived she’s living there, benefiting from the work that you do you provide. Um, like i said, you’ve been negligent not to be pursuing her a za potential donor, but so what have you ah, you run up against this problem, like as a as a consultant in prospect research, if you run up against this with ceos, boards, you know them not really understanding what it is you do. I think the ceo have a much better grasp of it because they understand how important it is. They’re doing some sort of form of research when they’re looking at at grantspace research. So it’s sort of this natural extension that they would be thinking about their individual donor base, but i think it’s the boards that are a little bit more uncomfortable with it, depending on the sophistication of the board, they don’t really understand public data versus private data what’s accessible, you know, there’s a lot awful lot going on out there right now with ah people’s data being compromised and so forth, so they really don’t want to think that, you know, well, you know, are we compromising somebody’s data if we’re looking at what they’re home values are and what their stock holdings are? If there, you know, publicly reporting this information, so they get a little uncomfortable, how about back on the staff side? And we’re gonna have some time to talk about the board, not not leaving that topic for good, but just back on the staff side, is there a disconnect between what you can do and what, whether it’s a ceo or even fund-raising staff think that you can do sometimes there is again, it really depends on the sophistication of the organization and how much donorsearch research they’ve done in the past. So, you know, it’s it’s, sometimes i’ll get a call for example, from somebody that will say we have the names of five individuals we need for you to research for us, and we just need to know their networks, so just from that statement that tells me a little bit about them and how much they know who’s on that much they haven’t done that much because i can’t find out true network, right? You khun you, khun, provide lots of measures that we’ve talked about through the years from home values, tow boat values, you know, to places they’ve given and things like that and levels they may have given that you can provide lots of ah, data points. But you can’t definitively put put, put a number on net worth, right, right? And then, you know, it’s, an educational process where i let them know about what information i do have access to what i don’t have access to what’s public versus private, and then we have a strong conversation about, well, the number that you come up with the almost doesn’t even matter because you can find lots of articles, for example, on what bill gates networks is for warren buffet. But is he going to give what is going to get him to want to give to your organization? Are you already engaged in conversations with this individual? How? How accessible is this individual to you have they been giving and at what levels over the years, i think that’s a much more important conversation versus a number on a piece of paper. Yeah, and, you know, that makes me think of what i’ve heard a lot from clients, that they want to pursue certain wealthy foundations, and they’ll say, well, let’s, go after, you know, the names you mentioned let’s, go after gates foundation or, you know, others ford foundations because we know they’re so wealthy, but much more important question first does that foundation fund what you do there? All they all have pretty narrow worked that they’ll fund, and second, exactly what you’re saying, do they know who you are? You cultivated them at all. It doesn’t really matter how much they’re worth and how much thinking about every foundations, in my opinion, are the easiest group to research because they must report all their very transparent. They must report everything they file iris nine ninety, pfc, which are all publicly available, most foundations, even smaller ones today. Will it have some sort of a minimal website presence so that even if there has been a shift in focus from what a foundation has? Been giving to versus what they might be shifting and getting into maybe some new areas of focus. It’s, it’s all very public and easy to find versus somebody’s individual donor philanthropy is a lot harder to kind of put your finger on, so yeah, if they’re already having certain expectations of, you know, well, we can just go after that foundation because they’re wealthy. You can see how the the conversation could easily shift to then let’s go after all the wealthy individuals in our community simply because they’re wealthy, which is which is pointless. Well, that’s really a waste of time without without the right cultivation. If none of them are known, if none of them know who you are, you know i mean, you can get started, but you can’t solicit them right away. That’s that’s what i mean, but when i say it’s pointless, you can’t just ask them for money out of the chute. All right? So i guess if you wanted to tell staff, you sort of said it, but making explicit if you wanted to tell staff fund-raising staff new to prospect research. What? What it is you khun do. How would you? How would you sum it up so i would sum it up with what’s publicly available and what’s not so let’s. Focus on what’s not because that’s the least understood, i think bank bank account information, right? I do not have access to what anybody’s bank account data is all about. I have no access to credit reports, right? So i don’t know how much credit card debt they’re carrying. I don’t know how much they’re looking at in terms of car loan dead or even house debt. So the the entire debt side of the equation, i have no access to that information. Um also, if you happen to come across somebody who does own ah property in a trust, okay, well, at least that gives you a trigger that okay? This person has set something up in their state, planning a little bit more sophisticated. They’ve put their property in a trust, therefore, they may have ah, trust accounts somewhere else, but that trust account data is not publicly available, so you wouldn’t know, you know, you can’t go to a trust institution and say, i want to know the value of that trust and what the assets are in it because it’s simply not publicly available what else? Theo house and children information those air the hard pieces for me of the puzzle that are hard to find. And that’s where i think both staff and board who might be closer to that individual, could have some conclusions from information for me. In terms of, uh, how many children ages of the children so that’s very important, right? When you’re talking about the stage of someone’s life. And is this a really good time to solicit them or not? You know, for example, right now i have two kids in college. This is a really bad time. Yes. It’s solicit for a major gift debt equity ratio is very. You would want to know something like that about an individual so that the conversation can then perhaps flow in a different direction. Okay. We have a couple seconds left. Anything else you want to leave us with before we moved to the board? Yes. Stockholdings in salary information. Unless they’re considered insider at a public corporation, then i can indeed access data about salary and stock holdings. Otherwise, it’s not publicly available information. And you and i have talked a lot about insiders. What the definition of that is etcetera. Okay, we’re going to go away for a couple of minutes when we come back. Maria, you now keep talking, but we’ll move it to the board. Conversation around your prospect research. So stay with us. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Durney have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. If you have big ideas and an average budget, tune into the way above average. Tony martin. Any non-profit radio ideo. I’m jonah helper from next-gen charity. Welcome back to big guy, big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. How could you blow your own tagline like that? It’s. Unbelievable. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. We know that, but i want to make sure it’s reinforced the idea. Okay. Maria let’s. Um, let’s. Talk to the board. What would you like to say? Anything different? Tio two aboard. I think for the board, my main goal really is to put the mehdi’s about what we find on and also how we protect the information that we do find. So wherever that information is stored at your organization, whether it be in a donor database, in hard copy files, whatever the case may be, let them know what you’re doing with the information so that they understand how we collected and how we protect it. I think that that’s very important and also what their role khun b in the development cycle, because prospect research is a piece of that. So how they khun specifically help to support identifying new prospects and also revealing current donors that we have in the database that perhaps could be elevated in terms of their giving. And as you have suggested, filling in gaps where information isn’t available or matter it’s very hard to find, for instance, like you mentioned family information that’s, right, that that’s also often very hard to find, but they might know that that person very well, perhaps they played golf with them or they know them through the chamber or something like that, so they’ve had some interaction with, um, whereas you as the prospect researcher or the maybe even part time room searcher on a staff, you’re playing some other role within the number non-profit fund-raising steph, you may not have access to that information because you’re not in in mingling and interacting with them, so yeah, they’re they’re often really great source of information for familial data, and i’ve often said on block this back-up a couple years ago, i remember, in fact, it was around the time when you and i first met first met online that i think some of the best prospect research comes from face to face conversations with people over over lunch or however you do your meetings, i happen to like meeting’s over meals, but face-to-face conversations you can learn so much about. Someone you absolutely can, but then the board needs to be educated about how that information needs to filter back to the non-profit right? So there’s got to be some sort of ah trigger or a mechanism or a processor, a procedure in place said if they are meeting with somebody, or maybe maybe the meeting was happenstance meeting maybe it was just just a meal and all of that in the conversation suede toward thie organization that that you’re serving on a non-profit board for and suddenly the prospect starts asking, you know, lots of trigger questions that would make you believe g, you know, they might have an interest in coming down and learning a little bit more about what the organization does you’ve got to be able to have them, i guess some train them to have a certain awareness, um, to look for this type of information so that it can be filtered back and that that together staff and board can then discuss well, is there somebody that we should be considering, you know, to make sure they’re at a future event or get on our mailing list or whatever the case may be? What? Are a couple of those things that board members could be listening for? Certainly they could be listening for the types of other non-profit that somebody is already engaged with. So if they the conversation turns toward, you know what, where they serve on board let’s say you’re a youth based organization, and you hear that this person is, you know, two counties over but very involved in certain youth based efforts in their neighborhood. That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t know sara lee have an interest in knowing what’s going on in your neck of the woods. So i think that just understanding where somebody’s charitable, general family’s interests lie is very important also, if you hear them talking about corporate boards that they might serve on that’s very important, because now that tells us that if that person serving on a corporate board and if that corporation is public, then we know we can access an awful lot of information about that individual because, again, they’re reporting it to the sea, and we can find out a lot about what somebody stock holdings are, what their compensation is for serving on that corporate board, etcetera, even non non-profit boards. That they might serve on because that that would lead you to believe that they have a propensity for non profit work. Exactly, exactly so, yeah, finding out what their their interests are because of the various boards, both corporate add non-profit that they’re serving on, you know, be kind of interesting, teo, i think spend a few minutes at a board meeting showing them how they can use their own linked in accounts, teo, to proactively mind them to try and find other people who have similar charitable interests to what they have, for example, right? That’s a report activity? Yeah, what other board activity they’re doing, but also, you know, i mean, i mean, for your board that’s ah, that’s a good activity. Ah, lincoln training. I’ll lengthen training. Yeah, okay, wait, i’ve you know, i’ve talked a lot about lengthen that we can’t we don’t have time to go into it, right? But i mean, you could definitely right get on, get on the agenda for a board meeting and in a fifteen minute span of time, if you’re just able to get fifteen minutes in front of the entire board and do sort of live lengthen. Just showing them, if nothing else, showing them that advanced search feature a tow how they can mine it. That would be a very useful time spent on the agenda of the board meeting. Excellent. Yeah. And i was going to ask, uh, your way have this energy. Well, it’s not really synergy. I don’t know. It’s a mind connect. Yes, energy is overused. It’s not that, but i i was going to ask, you know, how would how would we get on the agenda of a board meeting? As as the person responsible for prospect research, whether you’re you’re full time job or just a piece of what you do that’s a great hook, they’re linked in. Um other you got another tip. Maybe in just our last minute for getting on a board agenda. I think if you can proactively identify through sources like guide, star and foundation directories and so forth, who the family foundations are in a community outlined the list of trustees attached to those family foundations and come to a board meeting asked to be put on the board agenda for the sole purpose of china identify who has connections to any of these. Trustees so that we can start approaching foundations in our community in a different way. Where it’s a person to person entree first, as opposed to going in with a blind letter of intent or a proposal, we have to leave it there. Thank you very much, maria. You’re very welcome. She’s, the prospect finder, she’s at the prospect finder dot com and at maria simple on twitter next week. Gene takagi is here. We’ll continue our two hundredth show discussion on partnerships and other joint ventures. Jean takagi, of course, principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com. If you’re smaller midsize shop, remember generosity siri’s for multi charity five k runs and walks. Dave lynn theo seven one eight, five o six. Nine, triple seven or generosity siri’s dot com. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is on the board is line producer. The show’s social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules are music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Hey! Co-branding dick, dick tooting getting ding, ding, ding ding. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. Duitz e-giving thank you, cubine. Are you stuck in your business or career, trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? 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Interviewing Beth Kanter at Fundraising Day New York

Beth Kanter Vid: Real Online Engagement

In June I sat down with Beth Kanter for Nonprofit Radio to talk about true engagement with your audiences, and how to measure your outcomes.

Interviewing Beth Kanter at Fundraising Day New York

Beth is a master trainer, blogger and co-author of “The Networked Nonprofit” (with past Nonprofit Radio guest Allison Fine) and “Measuring the Networked Nonprofit.”

True engagement means listening, Beth explained, as a phone rang in the background at Fundraising Day 2013. Workers dismantled the exhibit floor around us, but we were undaunted and fearless.

Beth said fuck twice.

I’m really grateful to RallyBound for sponsoring* the video.

Here it is:

*Full disclosure: RallyBound pays me a fee if you purchase their software.