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Gene Takagi: Unpaid Interns
There’s new law on this and it’s pretty good news for nonprofits that use interns. But there are questions depending where you’re located. Gene Takagi explains the ins-and-outs. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.
Amy Sample Ward: Social Appreciation
We look at social engagement for member appreciation or your donor campaign that doesn’t include an ask. Amy Sample Ward is our social media contributor and CEO of NTEN, the Nonprofit Technology Network. (Originally aired December 12, 2014.)
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Hello and welcome to tourney martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. My voice is cracked now that uh oh, you know that i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with duodenal atresia if i had to digest the idea that you missed today’s show unpaid interns there’s new law on this and it’s pretty good news for non-profits that use interns, but there are questions depending where you’re located. Jean takagi explains the ins and outs he’s, our legal contributor and principle of neo, the non-profit and exempt organizations, law group and social appreciation. We look at social engagement for member appreciation or your donor campaign that doesn’t include an ask amy sample ward is our social media contributor and ceo of n ten, the non-profit technology network that originally aired on december twelve to twenty fourteen on tony’s take two i cracked again to twelve years old, thirteen years old. Oh, tony, say to trump and and tc videos we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee. Fundraisers, we be spelling dot com. Jean takagi is with me. Very glad of that. Glad he’s back. You know him? He’s, the managing attorney of neo, the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits that popular non-profit law block dot com. And he is the american bar association’s twenty six eckstine outstanding. Non-profit lawyer he’s at g tak. Welcome. Outstanding non-profit lawyer. Hey, welcome. Outstanding non-profit radio broadcaster. How are you? I’m great. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I don’t know. Have you been live? Yeah, you have. You’ve been live since since you got this outstanding non-profit lawyer award. Yes, once or maybe twice. But yes. So it is not the first that listeners they’re hearing it, but it bears repeating until twenty seventeen and then it’s old news and you’ll have to re apply, i guess. Hey, guess but this is my first time i hit the first lot of your show. So i’m honored. Was this the first time you’re in the first half? Is that right the first time? Oh, ok. That was not intentional. Well, see, these are the perks that come with being the american bar. Association outstanding. Non-profit lawyer during the’s the perks that come with it now twenty seventeen, we’ll be back down in the aisle. Squeeze you into tony’s. Take two. You get a minute and a half. Okay. No, not at all. Not at all. I love having you. You’re our longest running. You know, we’ve talked about this every every every july when there’s an anniversary, the show we talked about this, you’re the longest standing contributor, so by no means denigrate that. All right, we are we are talking about you have unpaid interns. So, um, i want to set the stage a little bit altum in in august, there’s a federal court in new york that applied a new test to dismiss an intern’s lawsuit against the hearst corporation. And just parenthetically, i think he or she is now screwed in that career that they’d better go back to school and major in something different because their their name is dirt in whatever they’re they’re majoring in now. But any case that was august and then there’s a federal court down south in that covers alabama, florida and georgia that applied that same new test uh, which we’re going to get through all this, but but the rest of the country is a little uncertain. So i just want to set the stage for you to explain to us, um what? What is the what is the problem here with non-profits and volunteer interns? Sure. So maybe if i if i take a step back to tony, you know there are employees and there are volunteers, and if your employees, you’re paid in your subject to, like, wage and hour laws and all of the rest, right? So everybody knows that and non-profits especially charitable non-profits often rely on their volunteers very heavily, and volunteers are so so important to so many non-profits, but it becomes a little bit tricky when non-profits decide they want to pay their volunteers. You know what they might call a stipend and it’s really important to determine whether by paying the volunteer, you’ve actually converted them from being a volunteer into a worker who’s paid right, which might typically be an employee. This is when you triggered all the employment, right? This is similar to what you and i have talked about with independent contractors just because you label someone an independent contractor. Or a volunteer or an intern doesn’t make it. So exactly so the legal definition. So, i mean, you know, part of you know what a non-profit might do is if somebody like that person in the hurst case said, hey, you know, you called me an intern or a volunteer, but i’m not on. I actually have gotten some sort of payments. I should be treated as an employee and, you know, the subject, all of deals, employee rights, i should be able to exercise them well, it’s not the label that created. So perhaps they have a case and there was enough of the case, and i think it might have been a class action or just multiple plaintiff sex bob um, in that case, but so labeling them a volunteer or intern, but giving them a payment might make them an employee. And so that’s, what you have to be careful of and the fallback position before all of these new cases, we have some guidance from the federal department of labor, and they just gave us a sixth element tests, and we’re not going to go through them all. But basically the internship experience has got to be for the benefit of the interns and one of the factors and that test is that the employer that provides the training can derive no immediate advantage from the activities of the interns. Yeah, and that’s a really tough criteria to place. So you’re you’re taking on an intern, you’re supposed to train them, you’re not supposed to displace any regular employees that you have, so they’re not just, like, take the role of an employee. It’s got to be for their benefit and in in that department of labor guidance which still serves most of the country the employer khun derive no immediate advantage. So it’s like that the intern can actually benefit your business, right? Not even not even marginally. Now you have the you have the six that are standing throughout big parts of the country and, well, all in detail at non-profit law block dot com. So yeah, why don’t we put in the more references in there? I hid some of them until we do this. I saw that you had your very clever. I really appreciated that you people need to goto non-profit law block dot com if they never have but and go back if you have been. But yes, you said, you know what advice for the future chicken after the show, we’ll add it after the show and you said what’s the current state or, you know, what’s new what’s the new trend checking after the show. So you you kept i love that. Thank you very much for doing that. I was really i wanted to comment, but you had comments blocked you had you don’t allow it. You don’t know your allow free discourse on on your on your block. Did you know that is that it started to become a trend on on that elearning perhaps we could talk about that another day, but we sort of get off track with the comments. Uh, really good political in every oh, jeez. Okay. Okay. I understand. All right, so but i did want to comment, but alright, so, yeah, the the this longstanding department of labor, the six test, the sixth element test, and then the different one is the new one is seven elements yet was very weighted to the in favor of the internet and against the employer. Basically is what i saw in those six yeah, well, it definitely could be read that way. Much of this is the same actually in the new test, but the big difference is that the employer can derive no immediate advantage is not in the news and it’s. More of the new one is, uh, more of a balance versus the old one. Or maybe current in a lot of places. The six elements you had to meet all six. Yeah, versus the new one is a balance. Or were more flexibility. Okay, i think i feel like we’ve done a lot of teasing the listeners we’re going, we’re going to flush it all that, you know, you know, you know what? We’re not gonna let you down, you know that? All right, we got to take our first break, gene. And this is what happens when you’re when you’re in the first segment. There’s early break. But then we get a long stretch together, so stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I feel like doing some live listener love good. Jean, if you will indulge me, let’s, let’s, start abroad and ah, actually, let’s, let’s start in japan. Gene. Gene, you do you speak japanese? Gene schoolauction okay, i guess. I mean, that means a little bit. Okay. Okay. Well, i we say konnichi wa am i? Am i pronouncing that correctly? Like you are very close. Cooney is that better? Yeah, that was better. Okay, um, i exaggerating it or is that good? Well, we’re got it. Okay, thank you very much. Ok. Last time you’re in the first segment. That’s the end. Of course we have listeners from japan, but we can’t see your city today. For some reason, cities are masked and same thing in career we cant do you routinely can see cities but korea? Of course, on your haserot comes ham, nida and mexico city mexico bueno, star days. Glad you’re with me in mexico city. I love mexico city’s very nice. I’ve been through there a couple times norway again we can’t see your city but norway welcome live listen love to you and the philippines philippines live! Listen, are left to you that’s a new one? Do i think i’m not sure you’ve been with us before? Beijing is with us always so gracious multiple in beijing ni hao and also san juan, puerto rico would that be a way to start? Is also a way to start is, of course, san juan wellcome back here in the u, s, brooklyn, new york and new york, new york love it, love it! Brooklyn, new york in new york, new york live! Listen love to you st louis, missouri and garfield, new jersey look at this, i love it! And uh oh, late, late check in changsha, china also? Well, of course you get knee how as well for the doesn’t matter late chicken glad you’re with us in changsha and also las vegas, nevada to get some new ones garfield, new jersey brand new lovett and las vegas. I’m not sure you’ve been with us before, okay, we’re going to do the of course with live listen, i’ve got to have the podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections, but i’m gonna divide them up today. I’m feeling avant garde so those air to come. I never forgot coming. Okay, jean thank you for for hanging in there with me. Well, i get verbose, but it’s thanks. It’s. Gratitude, i think. It’s well placed verbosity. All right. Okay, so we are. We were talking about the difference between the two tests. The longstanding six elements all had to be met versus the newer one. The seven elements more balanced and s o fairer. I thought in my that’s being very subjective but in my opinion seemed fairer and friendlier to employees. Employers sorry, friendly to employers. So, um, let’s let’s talk about the newer because you summarized and again, the details are all a non-profit law block, dot com let’s talk about some details of the newer test that that got applied just in in august. It came from last year, though, right? Yeah, it originated. So for lawyers out out there, i’m probably very few. But the appellate chords sort of determined the law because a different district court might be on different sides of and then the powered court takes it and says, this is what everybody lower than us have to abide by and and the hearst corporation case with the lower court that applied the new tests that came from the second circuit, which includes new york, connecticut in vermont. So that’s, the appellate court that covers all those three states, they came down with a case called glad versus fox searchlight pictures. And i only bring that up because that’s the black swan case if anybody saw the portman movie oh, yeah, was he was based on an intern claim from from that project. So the second circuit said that hey, the department of labor test that’s not the approach we should use anymore. They actually said the approach we adopt reflects the central feature of the modern internship, which is the relationship between the internship and the interns formal education. And they said no six elements of which all of need to be met. Aziz said before it’s seven factors that were going away and the whole idea behind this is who benefits more the employer or the intern. Okay, so there’s the balance we get, we get the way a bunch of factors and see how how each of them comes out. Is that it? Basically, yeah. And that’s the modern approach not saying the employer can’t derive any benefit, which is the department of labor test, but saying, who benefits more the employer or the intern now, is this, uh, is this an an example for people who think that our courts are activists? Now we’re getting political, i don’t do politics, so we’re not going. I’m not going to give my opinion, but ah, of whether this appropriate or not, but this and this this is basically court made law, right? Because it’s the appellate court superseding a longstanding department of labor so executive branch test yeah, and, you know, the laws are either made by our legislatures or they’re made by our administrative edges agencies, they’re executive agencies, but if the you know legislature, does it there’s a lot of discussion, a lot of lawyers involved the administrative agencies khun do it just like that, right? So they create regulations that fall within the rules, and they’re trying to interpret them and it’s only through the court that we understand how to interpret their regulations and whether there are regulations are actually constitutional are consistent with the loss of this is the balance and check to the regulations and basically here we’re balancing the department of labor’s. Right. To create the tests and say that this is this is what the statute really contemplating. Okay. All right. So one one person’s balance of oven executive. Ah, executive regulations would be another person’s arbitrary lawmaking by courts. So there’s, the there’s, the two sides. And then we leave it there because this is not a political show. Okay, um, activist activist courts. Okay, so let’s, talk about the seventy seven factors in this balancing test. Um, on go. They all start with the extent to which so there’s your balance. You balancing phrase? Glad jean, once you get started. Sure. So the first is that both the intern and the employer clearly understand that there’s no expectation of compensation. So both parties no it’s, a volunteer position. And if there’s a stipend paid, you know, that’s that’s above and beyond what was expected, the expectation is no compensation. Okay? And it is a stipend that is in aa compensation for expenses that are that are paid out by the intern. Is that the stipend? Well, the stipend can actually even be a payment. Well, it could be a reimbursement for what the internist spending on. Their own, like, you know, the even transportation expectation, right? Commuting or the stipend could just be kind of saying, hey, you know, we know you’re working here for free, and we’d actually can’t afford to keep you as an employer, and we’re going to make sure that we fall within the department of labor’s or the court idea of an intern, and we’re going to give you some money. It might be five hundred dollars for the month, for example, and an employee minimum wage would be a lot higher than that. But you’re allowed to give entrance stipends within reason of longer. They really are unpaid interns and under these guidelines yeah. Okay, again, this is one factor out of seven. So a stipend is not going to kill it, but not like the old test where all six elements had to have been met. Correct. Okay. Okay. All right. So cool. All right. So you could give a reasonable stipend, a song that doesn’t look like a salary. Correct. Okay, okay. All right. What else we got there? So we got to that. That the internship actually have to provide training. That’s going to be similar to? The type of educational training that they would get in an educational environment, like, like in the school or in the clinic or something like that. So it’s inside a real life location, working location, but it’s still going to be a training element that’s really important, which makes sense. Okay, in addition to that, it’s got to be tied. The internship has got to be tied to the interns formal education program. So there’s got to be some sort of integrated coursework or the internet’s got to receive academic credit for it. Okay, now this is the second one about the the training similar to that which would be given an educational environment that seems like i don’t know is that? Is that common? I mean, i’m out of the workforce. I mean, i i i’m i’m unemployable, nobody would hire me. I’d be too much. I’d be way too much trouble. Way too many headaches. I’d be a you don’t want me, so i’m out of this. Is that pretty common? Like there is formal training sessions in an internship besides doing the day to day work? Yeah, you know, we would recommend that that be the case. It doesn’t. It doesn’t have to be like every day, and it doesn’t have to be like, you know, five hours of the eight hours that they might work. But there has to be. There should be a training element again. It’s, it’s, it’s. Not absolutely required, it’s part of the balancing test. But having a training programme is a really good tip. Okay. Okay. And then, uh, the extent to which it’s tied to the interns formal education program. So you have that might be, you know more about the class that they’re in. You know, they might write a paper about their experience at the internship. That would be integrated course work. Or they could just receive academic credits. Instead of taking a class or a clinic at school. They might just get credit for serving as an intern at a particular non-profit. Oh, well, that’s. Very common, right? I think the school credit comment. Yeah. That’s ah, it’s something that would be very important. Teo, incorporate. Okay. If you had a client, you would recommend that their interns air getting academic credit for the work they’re doing. Yeah. Or at least having their coursework recognized that they are interning at a particular non-profit and that they’re completing some sort of assignment related to that. Okay, okay. Actually, i said if you had a client, i didn’t mean to suggest that gene takagi sze practice has no clients. That’s, not the case as you are counseling your many, many clients, you would recommend what i just said. Okay, um, all right, let me i mean, i’m going to read one. I feel i feel like meeting, um, the extent to which the internship accommodates the interns academic commitment by corresponding to the to the calendar. So you gotta weave this within. What? What the intern is doing over over at their university. Right? So you don’t want to go. Hey, i know you have a class between nine and three on monday, but we’ve got work needs. You better come out here or you’re gonna lose your job. You can’t do that. Okay. Very bad. Alright, so so the employer really does need to be working with the the academic institution. Whatever is, i mean, it could be a high school, too. I suppose there needs to be a lot of coordination. It seems like yeah. Or the intern has got got to represent what their schedule is, and the employers got to accommodate that. Okay. Okay. Sorry. That’s a good one. All right. Um go ahead. You go. You go now. Okay. What about some pictures? I don’t know. Then the next one is extent to which the internships duration is limited to the period in which they’re receiving this beneficial learning. So you can’t have an intern for five years. Who’s not learning anything beyond the first six months. It’s tied to the learning again. The primary beneficiary is the intern, not the employer. Okay, the duration should be limited. Okay? And should it be limited to the to the academic calendar year like that way? Well, it might be limited depending upon what you’re tying it to see if it’s tied to just one course, it might be limited to that course. It often is limited to the summer in between, you know, the fall and the spring semester. So, it’s, just you want to make sure that they’re learning during that period and it doesn’t look like if i could jump to the next one. I’m going to take your place and let you take the last of it doesn’t displace a paid employees jobs, you’re not just taking a paid employee position and saying, hey, we don’t have an administrative assistant for this program. We really need one, but we can’t afford one what’s hired an intern on ben, train them for two days on howto answer the phone and make copies and then let them work, you know, for a year doing right, right? Right now now if if you were challenged, if the non-profit was challenged, how would it demonstrate that one that it wasn’t displacing an employee? How would you how would you go about defending yourself about that? I think you would say that you know what? We designed an internship program in advance? We did not fill a whole unemployment hole with just somebody that we hired on just called them an intern. There was a training program that we created and established in advance with thoughtfulness to make sure that they’re learning in this program. Andi put them in this position for this limited period of time, i think that’s how you show that it wasn’t intended to displace any employees on its intended to compliment on dh, you know, for their learning. Okay, okay. Cool. All right, you go ahead with last night. You’re the guest, please. Okay, so that the last one seventh factor is extent to which the intern and the employer understand that the internship is conducted without entitlement to a paid job. So it’s not like intern for us for the summer and we will guarantee you are we will strongly consider you for a job in the fall when we’re hiring for full time positions. So as your screening in turns on daz, you’re negotiating whether they’re going to come on or not, you don’t want to be emailing or saying the wrong things. Yeah, and, you know, they might really have a leg up legitimately have a leg up when you’re hiring for a full time position in the fall, because now they have a bunch of experience, but you don’t want that to be the basis, and you don’t want to entitle them to it, so they shouldn’t have the expectation that just because i intern, i’m automatically. I’m going to have this job now. Suppose someone in the organization e mails to the potential intern during the hiring process ah, you we always give our interns preference in employment at the end of the internship. How does that how does that sound to you? Yeah, it sounds like it was the gate. The factors in the balancing test thinks so, yeah, it wouldn’t be a great fact, but by itself, it probably isn’t gonna like kill them. You know that the argument that they’re not ok, but it doesn’t help so better to do things that that help your employer than rather than don’t help or, you know, neutral. So stay away from promises or preferences or anything like that of a job after your internship. Yeah, we want to stress like this is a great learning experience for you, and we’ve designed it to be a learning experience for you that the email you want. Okay, okay, now i’m not sure we made this clear, but i want to that the maybe it’s absurd and everything that we did say so the so these seven factors is balancing test. We know that this would apply in the areas that are covered by the two, the two, the two courts in new york and connecticut and vermont, because that would be a second, that concert like a second circuit. And we know that that they seemed the same. Seven apply in alabama, florida and georgia because that’s the eleven eleven intricate. Which also said that hey, when they considered in a case on appeal, they said that tests the second circuit test. Sounds right toe. Okay, so that’s for those six states that leaves forty four states wear those forty for if you’re not in one of those six. So the best guidance they have is the department of laborers. Six element. Okay, but that still has wide application in every other state. Yes. Okay, but what if a ah, now what supposed case arises in one of those other forty four states and that and the courts in that circuit or state decide we we are also going to take this second circuit seven factor balancing test. And even though you were relying on the department of labor, we are telling our region that it’s the newer test that applies from the second circuit, then the organization will be screwed. Yeah, they might be if there is, there isn’t a higher court in those other states. Those forty for other states. If there isn’t a higher court opinion that says the department of labor test is the one that you have to use, which probably for most jurisdictions, there isn’t that decision. So right? Because so long that was into court to say, hey, we’re going to use the second circuit test tube. This is more modern sounds more fair to us and then it’s upto sort of the higher court to decide whether you know, and they’ll only take it if one of the parties appeals. So, uh, if it’s been non-profit lost on it, and then you know, the lower court said, hey, this is an employee, we use the department of labor standards, the non-profit if it wants to pay a lot of money to go to an appellate court, i could say, hey, we’re going to take it up and fight this and see if your hyre court will say, no, we should apply the second circuit test, too. Mmm. Okay, so i’m feeling bad for the people in. Well, i won’t. I won’t list the forty four states, but like my friends in wyoming and indiana and iowa and let’s, see who? Else is listening live. Wait, let’s. See nevada? Well, listeners, we got listeners in nevada and missouri and no new jersey. New york. You’re covered florida. Oh, monica lee is with us in florida, chicago, illinois. Our friends in illinois. Well, i’ve listened love to each of those places. By the way, what do we tell them? I know you’ve got advice. Yeah. So, you know, this would apply to every whatever job. Okay, this is advice for all fifty. Okay. Oh, even better. I better get a signed writing. First of all that when you hire an unpaid intern that there’s an understanding in writing that this is an unpaid position. And we talked about developing the position as a learning experience ahead of time and then filling it, not the other way around. Throw in some educational sessions during the time that might not be. Might be one a week, for example, where they get, you know, learning it could be a videotape or an online presentation or in person training by supervisors and you, like your supervisors are also paid on the difference. Are also trained on the differences of managing an intern versus managing an employee. Is going to want to do that differently, including on enforcing likes scheduling and accomodating school schedules and emphasizing the education rather than giving them a lot of menial work that didn’t actually result in any academic o our educational benefits. Okay, gene, the intern let’s. Let’s. Go back to the one right before the the educational sessions. You like them to be unrelated to the the interns day to day work. Yeah, well, not unrelated, but they should be separated out. So maybe at the end of the day, there’s an hour and you do this once a week and say, hey, what do we learn from all of our, you know, your work experience today, you know, if it was mechanical, whether it was, you know, counting, background or program management. Like what did you learn that, you know, let’s, you know, write me an essay and let’s discuss it or let’s, just, you know, hash it out. And as the supervisor of the trainer in this case could could tell them what their perspectives are and what they should be looking for, how to help their clients the best so there’s a lot more into it than just sort of doing the practical work. Okay, okay, we have just about a minute and a half left just enough time for the remainder of your advice for doesn’t matter what state you’re in. Sure, so require proof of academic credit eligibility so you don’t have to sort of do it at the back and to make sure that they actually got the academic credit but require that they’re going to be offered academic credit. Okay for the internship. Okay in-kind assess and limit their their operational duties that day to day stuff. That’s really menial again? It doesn’t mean that they can’t make copies and get coffee for you, but if that’s a big part of their job, then you’ve got a problem there. Limit the length of the intern relationship. I think the last thing i want to say is and for foundation president darren walker wrote an opinion in the new york times a few months ago, you know, saying that the internships are not a privilege, and it made a strong case for paying interns and providing a handup and not, you know, treating it as a handout, so if you do that, if you start paying your interns. You’ve got to be careful that you haven’t made them employees, so make sure that you know the department of labor guidelines, and if you’re in one of the second our eleventh circuit’s st make sure you’re familiar with those guys, flint, and we’ll have it up on our block that well, you want to go back? Well, they’re familiar now because we just talked about it in detail. Yeah, okay, but yes, more detail at non-profit law blogged dot com which you should be subscribing to and reading regularly and followed jean on twitter at g attack jean thank you very, very much. Thanks, tony. My pleasure. Pleasure having you in the first segment. Social appreciation coming up with amy sample ward first. Pursuant, they have another free webinar this time it’s on donor acquisition proven techniques to add new names to your file acquisition examples for every budget. And they’ll have strategies to convert mere impressions into new donors. Impressions with your organization this is on thursday, october nineteenth at one o’clock eastern email me tony tony martignetti dot com and i will send you the registration link. And if you can’t make that it will be archived because i know a lot of our affiliate stations may be playing this after thursday, the nineteenth we have you covered, email me again, tony attorney martignetti dot com and i will connect you with the with the archive so you listeners are covered. I got you, i got your back don’t worry about that. Um, that’s pursuant and they are at pursuant dot com to check out that webinar, we’ll be spelling spelling bees for non-profit fund-raising these are ideal for bringing millennials into your organizations work not like any other spelling bee you’ve been a part of or you’ve seen check out their video, which includes clips from events, and you’ll see that there’s music and dancing and stand up comedy and fund-raising and spelling as well, ideal millennial events. The video is that we be ea spelling dot com now, tony, take to you may have heard a couple of weeks ago, the trump foundation got punished by the new york attorney general for not being registered before soliciting in the state of new york very bad and i try to make this a teachable moment, so i explained what the requirements are. Um, in my video and i’ve got another video in the same post, which introduces the first group of non-profit technology conference interview videos, i got thirty two interviews and i’ve played a bunch of them on the show there more are coming, but there were all video too, so if you miss them here, you can check the videos or if you’re ah visual person like i tend to be more visual than watch the videos, and they are all on this first group is all on digital digital data disruption, digital inclusion, your modern digital team and digital metrics. Did you see the pattern there? Okay, my videos with links to those four ntcdinosaur o’s are at tony martignetti dot com. I was very pleased with myself. I stayed out of the politics of the trump foundation. I just very straightforward. I think i was very objective there. That’s tony’s take two here’s amy sample ward on social appreciation from the december twelve twenty fourteen show you’re going to hear some live listener love there, you know we’ll send it out. It’s erroneous, but we love you anyway. We got amy sample ward have monitored for being late. But nonetheless, she’s, the ceo of non-profit technology network and ten her most recent coopted book, social change, anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement and we’re going to talk about appreciation and engagement. She blog’s at amy, sample war dot or ge? And on twitter she’s at amy r s ward any without cubine well, you may have heard the west coast had a bit of a storm last night with lots of power outages, so just dealing with getting everything back online. Sorry, that’s okay? I did not hear that i’m sorry. You have you don’t get snow there in portland, oregon. Very much. It was not. No, it was actually very warm and, you know, wind gusts seventy or ninety. Some crazy high speed, actually a piece of building downtown just a few blocks from the intent. Office blew off and crashed through the fifteenth floor windows of a law office while the lawyer was working there. No, it was a very interesting evening. Pieces of a piece of a building flew off. My god, yeah, very unfortunate. Very unfortunate for that building owner that it flew into a law office. Right? They’re prepared to think that only you know, that broken building is screwed. Okay, now i understand you’re, you know you’re like, like all the contributors, your typically early, you’re not even just on time, so i understand completely. Let me ask you about something before we get to our appreciation campaigns. Yeah, and just like in the past four months, i noticed at facebook they spun off their messenger app, and at four square they spun off. They’re a nap called swarm, and i’m wondering why why it is that these huge two huge social sites would spin off two separate aps big chunks of what draws people to them. The facebook it’s the messages message i’m sorry messaging and it’s a four square the whole purpose of four square is checking in, and they spun that checking function off too. A separate app called swarm why do they do those things? I have a few different ideas, probably none of them have any, you know, piece of reality in them, they’re just totally my own experience trust your way, trust your judgment. I mean, i do think that one piece that factors in is the you know we’re all we’re using different act all the time and if i am using facebook to connect and i’m able to kind of multitask inside of their consent messages, i can post things, whatever, and then i leave facebook and i go to some other messaging app to talk to friends. You know, facebook just had fifty percent of my time, but if i’m using facebook to do that, i closed facebook and then i opened my messenger app and start messaging people there. Now facebook has one hundred percent of my time in that example, you know, so it’s providing a way for the app to be it me and focused as possible, but then still own the other nation focused parts that you know you want to do. So instead of having that all in one super multitask kind of after experience, you’re splitting that off into ap, and part of that, too, is that you know, facebook is more of an example of this than four square, but a lot of facebook users in the beginning were all using facebook on their computer where was a lot easier to kind of multitask. Have a chat, you know, send someone a message post on your news feed whatever. Well, now, you know, most people are using facebook on their phone, so it’s it’s much more difficulty to be multitasking inside of a nap. So again, you have multiple app that are all technically rolling up into the same umbrella. So it’s easier from the user’s perspective, i don’t have to import all those new contacts in new app it’s still facebook, but it’s focused on what i’m doing there, okay, that one and then you always have to factor in like, well, how are they? How are they monetizing those ap? Whether the ads, what are they selling? What’s the data they’re able to capture? And if you have multiple apse that are more focused and maybe have different different data pieces that air getting pulled in, then that’s even more opportunity, i see. Ok, and the one thing that does resonate with me eyes the ease of use of the app. The facebook app gets a little it’s a little busy so i could say i had to see that spinning. Okay, see, that is a good reason, but okay, monetization too. And andi, just time, time, time that they want you paying attention. To their they’re brand okay, yeah. I mean, if you want to think about the four square example, i mean, when we first started using foursquare, it was you could check in somewhere. I am here. You know, you could see where your friends were, and then they really started in and encouraging users to leave tips and post recommendations, and then they rolled out some features that we’re trying to see where you were and then ping you and say, hey, is this where you are? What if you do this thing here, you know, and have offers and promotions? So it became came. It became a little busy, right? So it made sense been off that other piece that’s more the recommendations and the where to go and where your favorite places. Because now that’s almost like competing with yelp, you know, give them a second app. That’s more in competition with maybe app. Those users are already, you know, have installed on their phone right and system apart a bit from that. Okay, cool. Thank you. Thank you for those insights. I find myself actually checking in a lot fewer. A lot less often now with the with the separate swarm app that’s that’s me. I don’t know, i have no idea what the statistics are, but i just thought, you know, i don’t feel like i haven’t even used it since that which happened interesting. I mean, i had a very boring foursquare news feed in which i only checked in an airport, so i did, you know, i used to only see you at airports that’s, right? I just thought you were just there all the time. Okay, well, it was a way of saying, hi, i’ve come to new york was around or i’ve come teo wherever. All right. Thank you. Let’s talk about appreciating our donors and maybe and volunteers and maybe even employees through the through the social networks. We don’t always have to be asking for something, right? I don’t think that we have to be asking for something. And i also think that really great. Ah, really great. Thank you. A really great sign of appreciation will be met with eagerness to give again or to volunteer again or two, you know, come again, wherever it was that you were an event, etcetera. So i think, you know, i have worked with people and organizations where it felt like if we’re not including an ass, you know, we can’t necessarily devote the staff time and energy to put on appeal together on dh, you know, i get that if you’re really strapped, there’s only three of us, you know, we have to make this happen, but i really think that taking that time to just say thank you really goes so much further in building that relationship, which we want to talk about fund-raising a special, especially individual fund-raising that’s really that’s really the peace, right, it’s building that relationship, you know? I don’t know that you could sure maybe you don’t mail something out that is a hard cost of male and all those thank you letters, you know, but i think there’s got to be a way, especially with social media, where it can be so much more quick and nimble to say thank you and make it feel really good. So maybe for twenty fifteen, we can plan an appreciation campaign. Yeah, let’s do it. Okay? And you have a bunch of examples we’ll get to talk about some of the examples, but what? You know this true of probably any campaign that were we’ve talked about in the past, but what do you think we should be thinking about as we plan our let’s make it what is most likely a donor volunteer appreciation campaign, napor which would be, what do we have in mind? So one thing that i think we need to have in mind is the timing of when we say thank you, i think often we always think, okay, well, we’re going to ask people for money. It’s december, right now, you know, so say everybody’s got their end of your appeals, and then when someone donates and it goes into the database, they get their confirmation email and it says, thank you, and we made sure that it was a really nice thank you letter, but it’s a confirmation email and it says thank you and we feel great because they got think i also think there’s a lot of opportunity to have said thank you before that ask went out if we if it’s december it’s the end of the calendar year, right, what if november or even that very beginning of december is when you make sure everybody that’s already donated, donated in the year or maybe donated last december or volunteered so far this year came to one of your events this year. Whatever it is, it’s important to you is a monthly member, whatever they get thanked for what they’ve already done. So when they received that end of year, ask they feel like, oh, i’ve already been recognized. Maybe i do want to give a little bit more. Or maybe i do want to come to the end of your, you know, gala, whatever it is, i think that that’s really important and some thing i don’t often see organizations do say thank you. First on dh then that people up for that ask later. Yeah, you get them feeling very good when the actors come that’s really interesting. All right, we’re going to go out for ah, quick break. And we may end up dividing this into two two conversations since we got a little short and i you know, i had an extra question for you, but we’ll get through. Well, well, great. Certainly. Nobody’s going to be short changed on non-profit radio. It just is not going to wait. All right, we got to go away for a few minutes, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from a standup comedy, tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m rob mitchell, ceo of atlas, of giving. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I like the drama in rob mitchell’s voice. Thank you. Rub some more live listen, love quick woodbridge, new jersey i love all the new jersey sabat fort lee woodbridge let’s go abroad croatia sorry, we can’t see your city. I have a friend who works for unicef in croatia, ireland, turkey and vietnam. Vietnam we can see you cities kanto and hoochie minh city live listener love out to each of you. Okay, let’s, continue thinking about r a campaign of appreciation, something that we’re always emphasizing together because you make me pay attention to it is you’re going to have to do this in the channels where your donors and volunteers are not in the channel where you would prefer to be thanking them exactly. And i think i think part of that is, um, uh, struggle and an opportunity so there’s the, you know, if we see just use antennas an example, if we see people are tweeting about their local tech club and they’re an organizer, so they’re, you know, big volunteer for us, we wantto jump right into twitter and start engaging with them and thanking them and pointing people to them and, you know, doing whatever, but then we also want to find ways where we leave that channel to make something private just for them. I think there is that thank you and recognition that’s public. Um but for example, last week, everybody on staff sat together and just passed cards and everybody wrote thank you cards and signed everybody else’s thank you cards and mailed those out to aa group of what we call community champions, you know, really, really great volunteers for us. And it didn’t take that long, but everybody physically wrote, you know, out that card and we never mail things to tech. You know, we don’t ever male things were a technology organization. So when those folks received the cards at the end of last week, we started getting emails were like, oh, my gosh, you mean, how did you even have my address? You mailed me a card. This is so cool. Thank you for thinking of me. So i thought fingers that in the moment go into the same channel. That person is and thank them and engage with them. But then find something that can be special. That’s just between you and that donorsearch or that volunteer or whatever that makes them feel extra special. Excellent. Excellent. Videos are very common. As as an appreciation method. You could do them and mass, and you could do them, maybe even individually. Which i think i think what most difficulty when we think about video is one of the most often pointed two examples of how to do a thank you to your donors that i see in block post every year is charity water and how they, you know, record all these different videos so that, you know, if i donated, i opened up my email oh, my gosh, here’s a video where someone is saying, you know, hi, amy, thank you for donating, and i’m like, oh, my gosh, they made this just for me, we, you know, most non-profits do not have the staff capacity to do that, or if we’re going to be really honest, maybe don’t necessarily feel like they have the technical skills to create lots of videos and added them and feel like they know howto get them up quickly on youtube and embed them in an e mail and send them out, you know? So i think that video khun b really personal, but i really think organizations should consider video something that can be personal because they’re being really authentic and they’re being their individual selves versus you’ve created separate videos for every single donor that makes sense. I mean, i think it’s a non opportunity for staff, whether it’s executive director, other staff to just not feel like it has to be a high production video that it’s really just me sitting at my desk, if you, you know, you sitting in the studio creating a quick, very authentic video that says thank you, and you can share that either an email or, you know, share that video on twitter, whatever that is. But i think it’s better that it’s, that it’s really authentic as it’s created versus feeling obligated to create, you know, tons of videos just so that it has people’s names in it doesn’t make sense for sure, because you’re saying that something that’s authentic, genuine, heartfelt will will come across and people are people don’t really expect to have a personalized video made for organization that can do that, you know, that is terrific, but the vast majority cannot, but everybody could be genuine, you know? I mean, i try to come across genuine on a mic and in video, and a ceo can do the same thing, and and you’re right, and staff to you you have examples of each of those thie all right, the ceo of girls inc has a very nice, very thoughtful video judy reading berg and it’s just her sitting in an office and it’s like a minute and a half video and she’s very genuine. Yeah, i actually i’ve i’ve talked to a lot of people at, you know, at our conference or other conferences where, you know, they say i’m the executive director, you know, i know that if i’m going to be in a video, of course it needs to be, you know, like in a nice setting or, you know, we don’t have a very pretty building, you know? We don’t have, you know, our offices and very nice i don’t know where that comes from that feeling that, you know, you’re the executive director and you’re going to create a video for the organisation. It has to be in some, like, beautiful, you know, sound studio. I love it when it’s literally your desk like i would if i was working with girls inc and judy has hurt you. I would say put more messiness on that desk, mate, make it literally your desk. You know, people. Maybe she’s, super neat and tidy, which i also am. I have currently two things on my death, but but maybe that’s really her desk, but just haven’t be an invitation to come in and sit down with you. You know, i think that’s, um, that’s a really great and super easy way for any organization tohave a video feel like it’s being personal, you know, you’re just inviting them into the space. Of course, if it’s on office, where you’ve got all kinds of things in there, that can be a video. I mean, of course, there’s going to be, you know, exceptions to that statement, but i do think just invite them into your office have, you know, make it feel like someone sitting down with you have someone literally in the video sitting down with you, whatever you can do to just make it feel like you’ve been brought in, you know, personally, we just have about a minute left there’s an example of a different one from nature conservancy, which is a whole bunch of staff from all over the world, and a lot of it starts with them each saying thanks to you and then whatever it is their job is and how, how the donors all support their work, whether it’s underwater, you know, forest and grassland that’s a lovely one, too, thanks to you, yeah, i love that example video from the nature. Well, we can we’ll send out these links and everything for listeners on dh i love that they use is an opportunity to highlight what staff do because with an organisation like the nature conservancy, often times you don’t even know. I mean, i want to support the nature conservancy, but i don’t know i’m supporting them because i don’t even know how to do that work. I don’t even know what you would do, you know? And so i think, it’s a great way to highlight this is actually what our organization does. These were the kind of staff that we employ to do this important work, because again, if you’re goingto follow-up later with another, ask donation request, people now have that understanding of oh my gosh, yeah, you do need more funds because this is the scale of the work. These are the kinds of people that, you know, need to be on the ground doing this. And i want to support that. We have to leave it there. Any sample ward ceo of inten, you’ll find her at amy, sample, war dot or ge, and also at amy, r s ward on twitter. Thanks very much, amy. Yeah, thanks for letting me talk about appreciation. I appreciate you so much, tony. Oh, amy, oh, my god, that’s. Incredible, thank you. I’m grateful. I’m so grateful that you contribute month after month. Thank you. More gratitude live. Listen, love check, but the podcast pleasantries in the affiliate affections i got a lump them together because sam is telling me i’m running out of time. You know i appreciate your listening, whether it’s an am fm station or in the time shift from your own device in your own time, my pleasantries and my affections to you next week. I’ve never let you down. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we be spelling dot com. Our creative producer is clear myer off sam liebowitz is that line producer keeping me on schedule. Gavin dollars are am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez, and our music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and degree. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of offline as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.