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Nonprofit Radio for May 30, 2022: Mentoring

 

Don Gatewood: Mentoring
Don Gatewood shares his extensive experience with professional and personal mentoring—as both mentor and mentee—so you know what to think about before you enter a mentoring relationship, and what to expect. He’s with The Initiative Baltimore.

 

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[00:02:34.44] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of blepharoplasty. Jah if I saw that you missed this week’s show mentoring Don Gatewood shares his extensive experience with professional and personal mentoring as both mentor and mentee. So you know what to think about before you enter a mentoring relationship and what to expect He’s with the initiative Baltimore And Tony’s take two help for Uvalde texas. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. We had audio issues in the recording for this show. I cleaned it up as best I can. Um there were actually a lot of problems in the introduction. So to give Don Gatewood a proper introduction, I’m going to read it now. Don Gatewood is co founder and ceo of the initiative Baltimore. He’s a professional leadership consultant and hosts the podcast. Leadership and professional development with Don Gatewood. He’s lead large teams in program operations, strategic planning, accounting communications, compliance and fundraising for several organizations like the center for workforce inclusion. American red cross and Goodwill industries of greater Detroit and Washington D. C. The initiative Baltimore is at the initiative Baltimore dot com and Don is at Don Gatewood dot com. Here is mentoring. Don Gatewood Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:36.94] spk_1:
thank you so much for having me today. I’m super excited to be here.

[00:02:51.74] spk_0:
I can tell. Thank you, Thank you for being excited. It’s a pleasure. Pleasure’s. So we’re talking all about what was your, what was your entree to mentoring? What did it start as a mentee or did you start as a mentor? How did you begin your mentoring?

[00:03:37.84] spk_1:
Absolutely, absolutely. I’ll never forget it. I was 19 years old at Wayne State University, which is where I went to college, my undergrad and I had recently pledged a fraternity alpha phi alpha fraternity incorporated and shortly after I crossed and became an alpha, I had to decide what contribution or impact that I was going to have on the chapter. After all, they weren’t having people become a member of this prestigious organization and you just sit around and do nothing. So some of my pro fights that you call them, they encouraged me to consider mentoring because there was this new initiative with the big brothers, big sisters of America. It was a new partnership that we had and I said, Wow, that sounds interesting. I’d like to mentor a young man that lives in the Detroit area. I was 19 going on 20 and I was connected with a young man named Jerome who was in middle school headed to high school and that’s where the mentorship bug started for me at the age of 19 years old.

[00:04:04.14] spk_0:
Okay, see at 19, I expected you to say at college that you had a professor or someone who was mentoring, you

[00:04:05.76] spk_1:
know,

[00:04:06.53] spk_0:
jumped in, you took the, you took the role as Mentor, 19. Okay, Alright,

[00:04:11.28] spk_1:
Right. Absolutely, but to be fair I did have some folks who mentored me in an unofficial capacity and I don’t think I had the language to know that it was mentoring in some cases because it wasn’t official, but this was the first time that I felt like I was in an official mentoring capacity where it was defined and understood. So that’s how it all started.

[00:04:46.74] spk_0:
Thank you, you just have the word to find uh since, you know, I think most, most folks have a general sense of mentoring but since you and I are talking in detail about the importance of it and the power of it, what you’re the expert, how do you define mentoring?

[00:05:19.04] spk_1:
Right. So the thing about mentoring, truthfully the term, it’s, it could look a lot of different ways. It just depends on the, the contract, whether it’s verbal or official, whether it’s professional or more social, but there is, there are regulations that are sometimes established with the mentoring in some cases it may be weekly, in other cases, it may be monthly, quarterly, so it just depends on the relationship that was established in the case of the Big brothers program though, I understood that there was an expectation that I would meet with the young person at least monthly and that I would make a commitment to reach out to them or they will reach out to me once a week via phone, email or text. So that was the general expectation. Now to be fair you don’t want mentoring to be so formulaic and so robotic that it feels unnatural for either party cause that’s not fun at all, ideally the relationship will be developed and you’ll find a groove. But in the beginning there has to be some type of parameter of expectations for both parties so that each person feels that their needs and expectations are being met.

[00:05:59.55] spk_0:
So it could even sometimes being writing

[00:06:45.84] spk_1:
absolutely absolutely in the case of like for the Big Brothers Big sisters, it could be in writing and I know for some other organizations when young folks are being mentored in a mentoring uh space right now where with initiative Baltimore, of course we meet with them on a monthly basis, but absolutely in writing it really can help both people understand expectations because see that’s the thing about mentoring someone, we have our own needs, but the mentee, they have needs as well and our job is to make sure that we meet in the middle. So all of those expectations are met because sometimes these mentoring relationships don’t go as well as both parties would hope. And so those written expectations can prevent some of those unfortunate things from happening. And boy do they happen?

[00:06:54.34] spk_0:
Okay, well, since you, since you teased the idea, what are some of the potential problems pitfalls that can arise? So we so we can avoid them.

[00:08:08.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. So depending on the reason for mentorship, there usually is a need, whether it’s a professional development need, whether it’s a young person preparing for college or whether it’s just learning how to be, you know, an effective member of society, people have needs and sometimes that need could be more time sensitive than others. So let’s say for example, I’m in a position where I’m mentoring someone who’s preparing to become a manager, that’s their goal, so I’m there to help mentor them because they’re wanting to become a manager, but yet they have a specific timeline, they’re trying to make this change happen within the next year and so that’s not a long amount of time. So in theory, you would need to be engaging with one another more frequently for both parties to get the benefit of the relationship. So if the mentee has this goal of achieving the goal in a year, but yet the mentor is only available once a quarter, then that process the whole, the information sharing and relationship building that’s supposed to happen so that the information is given and received and learn, it may not happen in a timely way and that could affect the person’s ability to achieve their goal. So that’s in a professional example of what could happen because some people really do need the mentorship, they don’t have it, they need the help, they need the guidance and they’re relying on you to provide that guidance and if you can’t be there in a reasonable timeframe it may stymie their development or their their expected outcomes and that’s not good.

[00:08:57.34] spk_0:
So that goes back to what you had said earlier about expectations, you know if this person is trying to advance their career within a year, make a make a move to management within a year and the mentor is only available four times in that year, you know that that sounds to me like a doomed relationship is not going to get what he or she needs

[00:09:02.04] spk_1:
Absolutely absolutely

[00:09:04.73] spk_0:
right.

[00:09:54.34] spk_1:
And then one other thing to consider in any mentoring relationship, there is a period of trust, so in order for the outcome to be achieved and this is the part that often time isn’t talked about as much as it maybe needs to be is that there’s a trust factor because this person who is the mentee, they may have needs from the mentor but they have to be trusting in order to be open and honest and allow themselves to be vulnerable so they can get that information and so that’s a process that can be developed with the relationship and the bonding, but if that relationship isn’t there, if there’s too much space in between, then the person may not feel comfortable, even when you do talk and so those conversations may not be as effective because the trust in the relationship building did not happen and so as a result they’re not as open. So that’s another thing to consider when we’re talking about engagement and just how that relationship building works.

[00:10:07.54] spk_0:
How do you establish that trust early on in the relationship?

[00:10:19.94] spk_1:
One of the most important things that people like to feel is they like to feel heard and so and understood and so in any mentor mentee relationship, people, they have vulnerabilities, that’s why they’re in the space where they’re asking to be mentor to begin

[00:10:31.10] spk_0:
with

[00:11:58.04] spk_1:
and and so with those vulnerabilities, there could be sensitivities where people can feel shy or maybe feel that they’re not good enough and so there could be a lot of emotional feelings around this area while you’re in their life to begin with as a mentor. So one of the best things that the mentor can do is to, you know, help them feel heard, help them feel understood even in areas where there’s a lot of work to be done, we still have to understand where we are and how we got there and appreciate that person for where they are while we’re working toward getting to a different place, but people have to feel appreciated and heard and not judged because again you’re vulnerable in the mentor capacity and then on the other side, this person who’s mentoring you, they have the skills, they’ve reached a certain level of success and so that can feel intimidating naturally, even if that’s not the intended, you know, dynamic, but sometimes when people look at you, whether you realize it or not, they may feel intimidated or they may say this person has everything that I that I want and I don’t have that and so we have to be mindful of the psychology of the person who’s receiving the mentorship because there’s a lot that could be going on, so by not feeling judged and feeling heard and understood is really helpful towards a person wanting to open up and to continue productively and healthy in a relationship

[00:12:00.98] spk_0:
alright and and building that trust,

[00:12:02.84] spk_1:
absolutely

[00:12:07.54] spk_0:
what’s in it for the mentor, um there’s gotta be benefits, there’s gotta be value for the mentor that that maybe folks don’t think about.

[00:12:17.34] spk_1:
Absolutely, I think that there are tons of opportunities for growth

[00:12:19.92] spk_0:
um for

[00:13:17.74] spk_1:
a person who is a mentor first and foremost, um each of us, None of us are at the pinnacle, I mean we all are growing and evolving essentially, some of us may be more skilled in one area or another, but ultimately we all are still growing and when you are mentoring someone, first of all you’re ensuring that this person has the tools they need to to be successful, um but you in order to achieve that you have to have effective communication skills um in in empathy skills that are not just important in a mentor mentee relationship, but also in the relationships that you have at your 9-5 or whatever professional space that you’re working. Oftentimes the mark of a good leader, a good manager isn’t just their ability to do the function of a job as an engineer, a doctor teacher. Okay, so fine, you can do the job technically you have the background and education, but if you’re in a leadership position, how you understand your team, how you’re able to effectively inspire them, motivate them to achieve the goal, which is bigger than any one person is. The organizational department goal is essential. So some of the tools that you use in the individual mentor mentee relationship are some of the exact same vital tools that you need to use for the team that’s reporting to you, who have goals and objectives to reach on a weekly and quarterly basis. And often times when you ask the person what’s one of their biggest concerns in the in the workplace is that they don’t feel heard they’re not getting the training that they need. And so these, this comes at a cost because companies suffer when organizations and leaders are not in sync with the team. So mentorship can certainly help develop those tools necessary to inspire the people who work for you. So it absolutely has a huge benefit to, to the mentee and the mentor,

[00:15:19.54] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, They’ll develop your media strategy that means identifying your core messages, defining the channels and the outlets where those messages ought to be heard and then doing the legwork to approach those outlets and as they close those opportunities, crafting your message is appropriately that is a media strategy. Turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o now, back to mentoring I would think for for for both to just satisfaction as you’re seeing the mentee grow, develop, you know, whatever whatever their objectives are, I would say that’s got to be enormously satisfying to the mentor, but then also the the as the, as the comfort of the relationship grows, I mean I could see that being satisfying to both to the mentee also, you know, I could see like personal satisfaction and fulfillment.

[00:15:23.34] spk_1:
Absolutely, and I want to say this, there’s a very big difference between being an expert in the field are good in the field and being able to explain to inspire and to teach their many experts who are really good, but that doesn’t always translate. In fact it could be a disaster when the person is trying to inspire or teach. And so I think in mentorship you learn that there may be some areas where you have to make adjustments to be effective and how your training and how you’re explaining things. So you do learn a lot about yourself your strengths and opportunities. Um, you know, if you’re being self aware of course, but absolutely you learn a lot

[00:16:16.04] spk_0:
interesting, I’m gonna put you on the spot. Can you, can you share something that you learned? You know, uh, you know what I opening for you in a, in a, in a mentoring relationship

[00:16:19.24] spk_1:
like

[00:16:19.63] spk_0:
that you learned about yourself or maybe the organization?

[00:17:30.14] spk_1:
Oh, absolutely. I mean there’s been so many, so many moments that I’ve that I’ve had in my life when I’ve mentored and I’ve learned, but let me see if one example that I’d like to share. Okay, so I once worked in a capacity where I am, I worked with people have been coming out of prison, they had been in prison for whether it’s 10 years or 17 years for whatever decisions they had made in their youth in the past and they had come out and wanted to start their lives in a different direction. And so I was in a position where I had a chance to mentor someone. who was a man who was older than me. And so of course, you know, you make assumptions sometimes when someone is older than you that they have a certain mindset and, and and that wasn’t, that wasn’t the case, that wasn’t the case at all. So I had made some assumptions and I had made some liberties in, in, in judging a situation, but in fact I got it all wrong, I misfired. I misunderstood the situation and where it was. And so what I walked away understanding was that you know, you can look at people and and make an assessment based off what you think you see and what you think you know? But sometimes what you think you see and what you think, you know isn’t true at all. So taking the time to when you communicate with people communicate in a measured way in a thoughtful way and not making assumptions based off what you think, you know was a lesson that I learned because I did make a mistake and quickly though I was able to identify it and make adjustments. But yeah, I absolutely made a mistake. I made assessments that just were not correct at all.

[00:18:05.88] spk_0:
Alright. Thanks thanks for sharing.

[00:18:07.24] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:18:38.44] spk_0:
What if the relationship isn’t going so well? Uh you know like both parties realize, you know there’s some frustration. Um you know do you do you take a step back? When do you or when do you say you know we need to stop. You know I need to mentor someone else and you need to find someone else to mentor? You know like what what do you what do you before you get to that point? What what if what if both parties just no it’s not, there’s just something wrong. How do you how do you fix it?

[00:18:41.29] spk_1:
Right. Well that’s a really good question.

[00:18:44.60] spk_0:
I mean like how do you try to, how do you address it at least?

[00:18:48.25] spk_1:
Right. Well, the first thing that the mentor has to remember is that you’re being called on to mentor for a specific reason. There is some need or some deficit

[00:19:00.34] spk_0:
or

[00:22:21.44] spk_1:
some area for improvement that the meant he has. So it’s important to truly understand that because if you understand that, then when you’re met with certain challenges and behaviors that are out of line with how it should go, just remember that this person doesn’t have all of the, that the skills, that’s why you’re the mentor to begin with. So that understanding that could be very humbling. Number two, I think that we should always anticipate that there will be moments where there will be difference of understanding thought and opinion and that’s the reason why I would suggest earlier on in the mentor mentee relationship, you talk about the fact that hey, you know, we’re here too. So I can share with you some of the lessons I’ve learned and maybe it can help you as you grow. But there there may be some things that I say that you don’t understand that you don’t agree with and you know when those moments happen, you know, we want to have open dialogue so we can talk about those things. So when you set that expectation in the beginning where you let them know, hey, it’s very likely that there will be moments where you and I are don’t see things exactly the same way uh those points are important points for us because through those moments will grow and you’ll get the, the lessons that I think that you, you intend to get from me. So we should address that from the beginning and not make it seem like a disagreement or difference and thought it’s such a bad thing. In fact it’s inevitable, it’s going to happen. The question is, how large will it be? Will it be smaller? Will it be larger? But I think by identifying it in the beginning that can help expectations be set? But then also when a person is there is a, there’s you’re out of sync that you don’t seem to be able to be on the same page. I think it’s important to deal with those things directly. And one way to do it is by establishing an advanced a weekly or monthly check in. So it’s already established that on a monthly basis you all are going to check in and see how are things going? What are things that’s going well, what are some of the things that could be going better? So you don’t wait until the problem arises to have these emergency meetings already, have it built into your, your program so that there is a safe space that’s understood to be the time that we’ll deal with these things. And then when you have those conversations, you’re able to say, this is what I’m noticing and this is what I’d like to see and then you can learn from their standpoint why it’s happening and if they can make those adjustments and if not why and then we can come to something maybe in the center, but it may not always work out. It may, but I would still say before, you know, walking away from the mentor mentee relationship, we do need to try to struggle to set new expectations and new boundaries because if you set expectations and then they didn’t work out, the question becomes do you keep setting those same expectations in the future or do you make adjustments to them? Sometimes we have to be willing to be flexible with because at first we maybe thought that this was gonna be the outcome, but based off of what you’re learning, you’re realizing that no, maybe the in goal is going to have to look different now. And once you’re able to accept that truth that it may look different. You’re relieving yourself of pressure and you’re leaving them with pressure because you’re not trying to hold to the same standard that you came up with that you realize now is not realistic. So we have to have some real honest conversations but some more thoughtful um internal conversations as well.

[00:22:30.64] spk_0:
I think it’s there’s great value in having that periodic check in where

[00:22:35.00] spk_1:
you said

[00:22:42.54] spk_0:
it’s a safe space, Tell me how you’re feeling about the relationship, I’ll tell you how I’m feeling, you know, so that it’s not, it doesn’t, it doesn’t break to a crisis,

[00:23:21.14] spk_1:
right? But one thing I do want to say that’s really important because I had a difficult moment once and it’s actually pretty recently And it wasn’t in a mentor relationship, but I’ll say this when there are difficult moments that are happening. It is important that we prioritize the issues or issues that were going to deal with because in some cases you may have identified five or six issues that are a problem. But you have to ask yourself, will it be effective for me to just list all of these issues and problems that I have, you may well not prioritize and identify the top two and deal with those because when you overwhelm people with all these things that you feel are going wrong, it can be hard to process. So we have to figure out what’s realistic and what you need to talk about and deal with and what are some of the things that you can maybe let go and deal with that another time.

[00:24:12.24] spk_0:
Are the mentor and the mentee equal in this relationship or or is the mentor have more of a leadership role? Uh, do you, do you you and, and, you know, I think for our listeners, you know, in small and mid sized nonprofits, they’re most likely to be doing professional mentoring mentoring someone new to nonprofits or new to administration maybe or management or new to fundraising or if not new, you know, junior to them, but conspiring to, to something greater. Um, is it, is it a relationship of equals or or it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t be

[00:25:19.94] spk_1:
right. I think that’s a wonderful question and I think absolutely it’s a relationship of equals. All parties involved in the mentor mentee relationship, they are equal. Even if it’s a dynamic where the person is much younger and the other person is much older, One is a male or female, you know, that one has a PhD, the other has a no degree. The everybody that’s in that relationship are equal in terms of, because each person has to fully show up and participate in the relationship in order for it to work. Now with that being said though, each person has a different responsibility. The mentor inherently has more information about the subject than the mentee. And so when it comes to being a subject matter expert, of course, the mentor has more information. They have more responsibility to help frame the experience and the, and to help guide the mentee when they’re on track or off track. But the minty also has to has to show up and be participatory and they have to again be feel comfortable with the relationship in order to for it to be a healthy relationship. I think that that relationship cannot be successful if both people aren’t showing up fully and the relationship cannot be successful if one person is entering it, thinking that they have more authority and in more power because absolutely not, each person has a role to play and it’s important to understand the limits of that role and not to overstep or under step it because that’s when things can just go bad.

[00:26:30.54] spk_0:
Cool. Thanks. What what are what are some ways you’ve seen folks grow and and mature and and that that could be, you know, that could be the mentor growing and maturing too. I’m not assuming it’s the mentee, but you know, sort of like getting a uh some of that really valuable outcomes. I don’t I don’t really want to make it sound quantifiable or anything like that, but but you know, more of the squishy, you know, like more than the humanity of it. What’s some of the ways you’ve seen either party or both parties, you know, develop, grow, maybe mature? You know, what, what what what what can we aspire to in a relationship like this?

[00:27:54.74] spk_1:
Absolutely. So when to answer that question, I want to think about a relationship that I have or that I’ve had with a with a mentor. Um I have a a gentleman who has served as a de facto mentor in my life. Um and we don’t talk all the time. It isn’t the monthly or it isn’t, you know, weekly conversation, I should have said it’s not weekly, but we do engage in professional and some of the other goals that I do have in my life and one of the things, the biggest benefits that I’ve gotten from that membership or that relationship is the fact that I understand that the journey that I’m on and the challenges and shortsightedness that I no doubt have, it isn’t something that’s unique to me and it isn’t something that other people have not experienced in a similar type of way, if not exactly 100% the same. And just knowing that there’s someone there that can help um honor and validate my experiences and where I am, it has been life changing, not just in that relationship with that mentor, but just in general, me knowing that as I’m on a journey, whatever that new journey or old journey might be that the travels I experienced the challenges or the successes, they aren’t something that’s new, that or impossible, but what I’m on is a journey that is pretty um pretty normal and it’s something that I I can, I can achieve on because others have done it and I think that that’s probably one of the biggest lessons is not, you know, it’s not about learning how to, you know use micro software or how to do this one particular thing that your mentor may have taught you, but it’s more so about that understanding that you know, you have an opportunity to grow, as long as you rely on the resources and the tools around you that you can use to grow and I think that mentorship it teaches that basic lesson that could be utilized well beyond that official relationship ending. It is something that I I lean on with with you know with all of my relationships

[00:28:53.84] spk_0:
so valuable to know that you’re not the only person going having this these frustrations. You’re not the first person to suffer with something or that that that context I think can be and the perspective can be very reassuring.

[00:29:11.54] spk_1:
Yeah and you’re not stupid you’re not a failure because you you you you made a mistake or there was an oversight it happens it’s just a part of the process.

[00:32:03.44] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. Their I. T. Solution is I. T. Infra. In a box budget friendly holistic. You pick what you need and you leave the rest your I. T. Buffet. In other words some of the offerings in the buffet I. T. Assessment, multifactor authentication, lots of other security methods, cost analysis help desk and there is more you choose what’s right for your situation and for your budget it’s the I. T. Buffet I thi infra in a box At 4th Dimension Technologies tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper It’s time for Tony Take two. The murders of 21 people in Uvalde Texas were this week if you’re a quick listener then this is still fresh and raw for you. If you listen to the time shift, it could be two weeks, 468 weeks since these killings the world and our attention have moved on. The people of Yuval Day have not, I’m not sure they ever can, it depends on what moving on would look like. They need our help. If you’d like to make a gift, a vetted place is the san Antonio area Foundation, the Foundation set up to funds. Uvalde a strong fund and Uvalde Strong survivors fund. If you’d like to contribute, it’s san Antonio area Foundation. S A F D N dot org. S A A f D N dot org. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got a lot more time for mentoring with Don Gatewood. If we’re a potential, well we could be either one, you know, we we could be Mentees are listening and potential mentors are listening to. What should we look for If if we if we’re thinking about this relationship as a mentee, let’s take someone there. What what would they be looking for in a potential mentor? You know, before they approached somebody, what what kind of, I don’t know attributes or you know, like what are you looking for in a person?

[00:32:24.14] spk_1:
Right. So the first thing that we all have to do, number one, Congratulations for anyone who’s even thinking about finding a mentor, that is a wonderful step because it identifies that, you know that there’s an opportunity there that currently isn’t in your life. So, congratulations to thinking in that way. But after that point we have to really think about what exactly is it about my life that I think that

[00:32:30.48] spk_0:
I could

[00:33:10.14] spk_1:
use some support or some advice or some guidance in whether it’s professional, whether it’s spirituality, whether it’s, you know, a relationship with a child or a loved one or you know, a wife or husband, what exactly, you know, ceo of yourself managing your own affairs, what exactly is going on? Or are there different areas that you are looking to be mentored in simultaneously? So identifying which it does take some level of self awareness, knowing oneself, knowing oneself, strengths, weaknesses and opportunities. So once you’re able to identify that look within and maybe write it down, I believe in writing things down, people write things down because it it makes it real when you write it down or type it in the computer and once you’ve identified those things, then you can move forward, recognizing the the type of person you need to connect with because they have skills or success in those areas where you have determined to be areas where you’re wanting to grow. So I think it starts with self evaluation and understanding what it is that you are trying to grow in, what are your goals? What are your objectives? What are those areas? And that would be the first step I would suggest.

[00:34:19.74] spk_0:
Okay, and then what what, what is still you know going further than what what are you looking for in someone who or what are you asking them to to commit to? Um Well no that’s different, that’s different. You and you you talked about that you know early on and verbal versus written and the expectations but um you know in terms of maturity um you know accountability you know do they are they someone I I think I can rely on

[00:34:24.76] spk_1:
right?

[00:34:26.02] spk_0:
I’m I’m I’m really just kind of stabbing at the dark in the dark, you’re the you’re the subject matter expert,

[00:36:01.73] spk_1:
right? And so there’s a so there’s a certain level of preparation that you can make which is what I’ve suggested with you know framing the mentorship as well as asking yourself introspective questions. So there are some things you can do on the front end to the best of your ability to create an environment where the mentor mentee relationship can possibly be successful. But you gotta remember we all are just human beings and a person could have all the skills in the world on paper but that does not mean it’s going to translate into a relationship that’s gonna be fruitful for both. So there’s there’s there’s an extent to how much preparation that that you can do in in advance but in terms of you know finding a person of course you want them to be available. You want them to be in a position to to listen and to to be empathetic and you want them to have demonstrated experience in the area that that you’re looking for. But you got to remember that your mentor is just a human to who’s juggling life and has challenges and may have periods where they’re more available and less. And we can’t be so quick to dismiss someone because the mentor who you are, you sort out is imperfect or they are not able to do everything exactly as you had hoped because that’s not the way that it goes. So I think that they do have to have expectations that are grounded in real realism as well because I do think that a mentee if not careful, can put expectations on the mentor. That could be unrealistic. And those expectations can be the reason why the relationship isn’t working. It may not even have anything to do with the value of the person, but it’s just how you envision and when they’re not meeting your your vision then you see it as a failure with really what needs to be adjusted is your expectation.

[00:36:31.73] spk_0:
Yeah. I I guess what I’m getting what I was getting at is you know, something that you said earlier, you know the greatest subject matter expert in the world on something, you know, doesn’t mean that they’re the greatest mentor. No, no,

[00:36:40.16] spk_1:
no, no not not not at all. But I will say this a lot of a lot of folks they do, you know, want to be mentored by someone who has a certain name or a certain reputation in the community and I do get that, but sometimes those folks are not available or they may not be the best mentor because of the other obligations that they do

[00:37:31.03] spk_0:
have. Alright. And if you’re a mentor looking at a potential mentee, it sounds like and correct me if I’m if I’m presuming if I’m presuming wrong, but I’m thinking it would sound like you would want someone who’s done some introspective work, thought about what it is they want to get from the relationship, you know, what, how do they want to grow if if you’re if you’re a mentor looking at a potential menti sounds like you would want someone who’s done that, that that personal work.

[00:39:12.82] spk_1:
Right. Right. But at the same time remembering though that there’s a spectrum, so people show up at different phases and some need more support and some need less support. So you got to remember that depending on who you’re connected with, they may just need more support or there may be some foundational things that you presume that they should or would have, they may not have. So a mentor has to be aware that there may be some things that they will learn about the mentee along the way that maybe they did not see in the beginning of that relationship and if that occurs, how do you respond to it, the easiest thing to do would be to let it go. But I would argue that understanding that there’s a possibility that some things are gonna show up and you got to be prepared and have some space and some latitude that you’ve built into this equation so that when it happens you’re not completely thrown off and you’re really ready to throw in the towel because a mentor, it’s almost like when you think about a you know a basketball team or a tennis person or an ice skater, they have a coach and sometimes there may be a gap there something that they thought the team would be able to learn faster. Or maybe Simona had a tennis player. We thought that with this sort of coaching, she would learn this the slice sooner but she just didn’t. And so whether you do do you just let the person go because they’re moving slower than what you thought. No, maybe you look at your coaching style and trying to problem solve. So it’s problem solving is a huge um part of mentorship or coaching. You know, you can’t just let the team go and let the players because then they’re not where you thought they should be,

[00:39:33.42] spk_0:
there’s such enormous value in this. I I see you know for professional growth for personal growth for both the mentor and the mentee. No it’s just it sounds so rewarding. You know, you’re you’re motivating

[00:39:35.42] spk_1:
at it is very rewarding because here’s the thing, we all have our area of expertise, whether

[00:39:41.52] spk_0:
it’s

[00:40:18.81] spk_1:
education, whether it’s medicine, nursing and it’s not enough for you to be good or passionate about your job. You want to make sure that your field is in the hands of other people who are equally passionate, equally qualified and have the skills to do um good and good faith in their positions. And there’s no people don’t just wake up and swallow a magic pill and have these skills. I mean, some of us really need the guidance from someone. And so for the love of the this professional space or whatever space it is, whether it’s, you know, religious or whatever it is that you do, you know, it’s it’s making sure that the people have what they need to be successful because it it rewards the greater good and we ensure that quality uh is the priority when when we sold back into it. Quality, it’s about quality.

[00:40:57.51] spk_0:
That’s very inspiring. Yeah, thank you. Don. It almost should be the place where we end, but I still want to I want to I don’t want to end yet because I want to give you a chance to. Uh so, so I guess listeners like I’m gonna ask, don you know what he wants to talk about because I’ve been asking all the questions. But so then if you want the inspirational part, you have to go back and play what, what don just said the past two minutes, that’ll be like close inspirational closing. So you’re stuck with a lackluster host, I’m sorry, you know your

[00:41:04.92] spk_1:
but

[00:41:18.51] spk_0:
you know, but you said something very that was very inspirational, but I still want to give you more time. So you know, what is it, what what would you like us to know that that I haven’t asked you about yet? You know, I can’t, you’re again, you’re the expert. What what what more is there that you want us? You want us to know about mentoring?

[00:42:03.90] spk_1:
Well when I turn on the news, when I walk into work spaces and my job, when I think about previous positions that I’ve held when I see the kids walking to school because I have a school, the math of high school right across from the building that I live in and I just see so much opportunity and and so much need across the board. I mean people wake up everyday wanting to do their absolute best. I believe that the majority of us truly feel that way now some of us, I don’t think that’s what we want, but that’s what we think, but I believe that the great majority of us, we really do want to be successful and we really do want to do the best we can, but sometimes we don’t know how sometimes ego, sometimes we don’t have the blueprint or the support

[00:42:17.70] spk_0:
and

[00:42:30.90] spk_1:
so that’s where mentorship comes in and mentorship, it doesn’t have to necessarily be something that you have to do you know regularly. Um I think about my my dad, God rest his soul, he passed away, but my nephew who didn’t, his father wasn’t as involved in his life, but I remember at my dad’s funeral, he talked about the conversations that he had with my dad and it wasn’t a whole lot because they lived in different states, but those conversations were very impactful and they, they helped shape the way he thought. And so I just want you to know that you don’t have to spend seven days a week, you know, for 15 years mentoring someone, uh sometimes some of those valuable lessons and jewels that you have that you impart onto people, even if it’s not every single day they can really have an impact on people. So we should always be thinking about how we can influence someone and how we can have an impact on someone, even if we’re not in a mentorship capacity, we all still have a responsibility, mentor or not to look at people around us and say, hey I see an opportunity right here and although I don’t have a whole year to give, I have this one statement to give and this one statement could have an impact and I think that that’s a way that we all can be involved in mentoring on a small or in a larger way

[00:43:38.30] spk_0:
more inspiration, You’re amazing. Thank

[00:43:40.40] spk_1:
you. Thank

[00:43:44.50] spk_0:
you. He’s Don Gatewood, you’ll find him and his professional leadership consulting at Don gatewood dot com. Don thank you so much for sharing. Thank

[00:43:53.70] spk_1:
you so much. It’s been an honor being here today.

[00:45:09.39] spk_0:
Oh my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Next week. Back to 22. NTC with responding to micro aggressions. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o And by 4th dimension Technologies IT Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Mm hmm

Nonprofit Radio for October 12, 2018: KPIs & Fundraging

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Anna Rhodes & Brenna Holmes: KPIs
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference (18NTC), shares its wisdom and insight on using key performance indicators to build consensus around goals and measures for your nonprofit. They’re Anna Rhodes and Brenna Holmes from Chapman, Cubine & Hussey.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Fundraging
Amy Sample WardIs your org positioned to accept help from supporters who are pissed off and want to channel their anger to something constructive, like raising money for you? Amy Sample Ward, our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN), explains what’s going on and how you can take advantage.

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent under aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with gastro inter opto sis, if you brought me down with the idea that you missed today’s show kp eyes our panel from the non-profit technology conference eighteen ntc shares its wisdom and insight on using key performance indicators to build consensus around goals and measures for your non-profit they’re anna roads and brenda homes from chapman, cubine and husky and fund-raising is your organ positioned to accept help from supporters who are pissed off and wanna channel their anger to something constructive, like raising money for you ? Amy sample ward, our social media contributor and ceo of and ten non-profit technology network, explains what’s going on and how you can take advantage. Tony, take two thank you, responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing wetness e p a is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com bye tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony, tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine nine here are and erodes and brenna homes with k p iis. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference in new orleans. This interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use, dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. My guests are on a road and brenda homes. Anna is deputy director of analytics at chapman cubine and husky, and brenda holmes is vice president of digital at c c h ladies. Welcome. Thank you. Glad to have you both have you. Have you done your session already ? We did. We just just finished, finished all your coming off it, all right, it’s coming off the hyre exact. The bar is open now. Life is good. You’re topic was, but are we making progress, establishing and using kp eyes ? Okay, uh, maybe we’ll start with, make sure that everybody understands that a k p i is a what you stated in unison together, keep performance in the caner. We see that the voice okay, i think that’s pretty well understood, but let’s, just make sure, okay, why are these things so important ? Let’s start with anna because, er it is so hard to keep everyone within a non-profit hyre working towards the same goal instead of looking at all of their different measurement. Um, so having a way to agree on what success really looks like can actually end up making you be more successful in the end, because then you’re all working towards the same goals. Okay, so the part of this topic is organizational buy-in or we’ll not organic. Yes, whatever happens, you fire of you defined focus, a bunch of people, a bunch of people need to agree, so called that buy-in okay. And i also see another part of this is data overload. I mean there’s, just so much available, right. We need to focus on brenna on what’s what’s, the most important stuff. Exactly. Yeah, and the main thing, you have them clearing up the misnomer that not all kept metrics are kp eyes, right ? So everybody does have to agree. On what what are we trying to track ? Why are we tracking it ? How does that help us meet our strategic objectives and our end goals, right. So once you have the buy-in on all those goals, then you’re able to dig down deeper and develop. What are those specific metrics that will help us meet these kp eyes that we can then measure against those strategic objectives to ensure that we do have success and that we are tracking over time ? Okay, okay, very good, that’s, great, overviewing, thank you. Alright, so. Well, should we should we start with our so we started our organizational goals. Yes, because that’s what ? We’re measuring against that, you’re just saying that. So now we got to get okay. So this all obviously should flow from our mission. I’m gonna go back to that. That that that fourteen year old voice, that really reason that we exist our mission statement. Okay, from that, we have gold now. Now. Okay, i’m gonna assume that everybody buys into the mission. Otherwise they wouldn’t be working there. Hopefully. But now now way. Get to the goal stage people could start falling out. That’s where the disagree it’s not too far from mission to gold, but we could start losing people. What do we do ? Go ahead, runner. Yeah, i’m gonna start so we we like to focus it on the building. Kind of smart goals, right ? So what do we need to do ? Departmental e department by department to help us achieve our mission on dh. Really phoning it in tow ? Really ? No. More than two. Three. And i went up to five in our session. I was like, oh, but, you know, two, three things that we all can agree on as a group that these are priorities. These are important goals. And, yes, there’s. Other things that are important. But if we let ourselves go down the rabbit hole of just saying, listing everything that’s important now, things no longer important, which is what you’re starting with you yours, referring to earlier with the data overload and it’s, especially. Eazy, because digital metrics can be so different than offline metric to instead have the i’m actually moving it away a little bit, okay, okay don’t worry, it can actually be easy. Tohave the metric create new divisions within just the development department divisions that didn’t even exist before, but it’s sustainers causing problems in solving so a cz longest. You’re looking at twenty things in google analytics and through the facebook manager over here, and then a completely different set of metrics for direct male you’re not even working towards the same goals within the development department. So that’s part of why so important to start at the goal side of things rather than at the measurement side of things, so that the measurements always air serving the goals supporting those goals, right ? Okay, i imagine we need top down by this has got to come from leadership. That’s the goal agreement we still go agreement it’s got to be driven from above and and accepted. Yes, it doesn’t necessarily have to be driven from above but don’t really actually, i was you know, as i was saying, i think it could be bottom up it can be, but but but the leadership has to be on a great okay. Okay, for sure. All right. Uh, all right. So we agree on our goals. Now, now we’re moving to our kp eyes. How are we going to how do we know what that’s measurable belongs at the top within within these goals ? Yeah, that we’ve all agreed on. Well, and even before you get teo, what are the kp eyes ? We need to develop strategic objectives for each goal, okay ? Because the girls tend to be a little bit umbrella there. Vega. Right way. Operation. Exactly like we use greenpeace. One of our clients in our session today partnered with us, and one of their goals is defending democracy. Okay, well, that’s big right and an existential and long and yeah, eso then we developed strategic objectives that will help them measure against whether or not they’re being successful in duvette defending democracy it’s time for a break pursuant there. E book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and practices to your non-profit it’s free as you’re accustomed to all the pursuant resources. Are and it’s on the listener landing page ? No surprise, tony dahna may slash pursuing capital p for please and pursuing i guess now back to kp eyes from the non-profit technology conference. So what are you ? What are some of them that they chose so way ? Work through those greenpeace ? How come that on right now is accident or not at this table ? Alright, now they’re long sorry, it’s not proper radio your life. I know, i know, but we worked through them from the department perspective. So what would it mean for the fund-raising department to be supporting the organization goal of defend democracy ? So it is easy for fundraisers to think that their job is always the same. It is always just raise money, raise lots of money and then we’re done. But there actually is more nuanced than that if we’re trying to defend democracy. Well, sadly, that isn’t something that we’re just doing today or for the next month. That’s actually a long term project and certainly at least through the trump presidency. And and, you know, given how greenpeace defines this goal of actually reducing the amount of money in politics, i mean that’s going to take sometime. So that means whatever funding that fund-raising is supplying has to be sustainable and it’s the net that matters, not just the growth tomorrow. Okay, so that means now we’ve clarified the objective in the fund-raising department. So that’s, the next stage come up with the mission statement for the organization ? We’ve turned that into a number of goals for the organization, the big dream things defend democracy, stop global warming, all of these huge concepts and then we’ve broken them down for how does my department contribute to that ? And on lee, once you’ve done that, can you decide ? What am i going to measure what’s actually being, what do i need to measure ? Ok, right. So the object’s strategic objective is growth in sustainable net revenue. We’ll both sustainable and net are two measurable things. So then you can build your kp eyes off of those keywords on dh actually, decide on what are the metrics that we have to check ? How do we agree on collecting that data so that everything has a flat, measured baseline that we can then benchmark ourselves against what periodically so that we’re checking in on that growth ? Side of the goal and when we’re at this stage, is this just our department ? That’s that’s really making these decisions ? Okay, so we’re not we’re not at the higher levels anymore. It’s not necessary, correct is where the department level, but we’re going to build back-up so we’ve gone down to the department level to figure out that’s, so i mean, you’re using your expertise, so you want your fundraisers figuring out how fund-raising can best support the fund-raising goal, right ? You don’t i don’t want a cfo deciding that, but in the end, the cfo has two buy-in on it, all of leadership does have two buy-in so once the various organizations have figure out out their objectives and their kp eyes, then you have to come back up a level and talk across departments and see how these objective support each other and possibly adjust them is where we ended up with our greenpeace example is actually making slight objectives when the marketing department and the fund-raising department saw the amount of overlap between their objectives and the tactics in specific that they were planning in order to get there, so that sounds like an ah ha! Moment, way. Have a lot more in common than we realized. A cross marketing and fund-raising. Exactly. Yeah, okay, okay. Okay, dahna, but let me ask you where should we go next with this ? Where do we go next with discussion ? You talk good. Well, i was just gonna say i think, you know, we used marketing and fund-raising as the example here because obviously, the ntc audiences, a lot of marketers and fundraisers, but the same structure and the same necessity for kp eyes it’s in all departments, right ? Whether it’s, your program, people who are actually implementing the services or whether it’s your public relations or media relations outreach people like all of these departments have to go through the same process on. And i think there will be a lot of those. Ah ha. Moments for organizations who are used to working in silos when they start thinking about the goals. Right ? Actually being achievable of strategic objectives that can be measured to get back against the mission on dh over there. Okay, uh, what about digital digital fund-raising kp eyes ? You talked some about that ? Yeah. Okay, let’s. Shut out. You want to start anna s. So there are a lot of questions about digital fund-raising kp eyes because people immediately go to the measurements available. In google analytics, and which one of these should i use as if the answer is the same for everyone ? So this just, you know, as if conversion rate on your petitions should be asserted number for every single organization and that’s what defines success ? Because we can show you how to set that up in google analytics, so that came up in our session, and it was a another reminder to folks to go back to the beginning, decide on your goals. Yeah, i think i feel like a lot of ways it’s, like the ultimate consultant answer is it depends right ? Because everything is it is individualized. If you’re not taking the time to audit yourselves and personalize and get that organizational buy-in and that organizational priority list, then they don’t really matter than they aren’t kp eyes, they’re just metrics, whether they’re showing growth or loss or what they’re just vanity numbers at that point because they have no tie to the strategic objectives in the mission of the organization. We had one question in the session, which was great, and it was about supporter scoring and i think that’s mental really hot topic in the digital. Space border scoring ? Yeah, i don’t know what that is. Okay, so when the ads taking basically qualitative, um, pieces of information, whether that behavioral traits or demographic things on dh scoring it, putting a quantitative wait to that to then build a model to show you these are my best people, my top ten deaths ill or my latto bottom ten on dh, then also using it to find lookalike audiences and things like that out in the world. So you want you’re doing this for different constituencies like donors, volunteers, exactly, event attendees, service beneficiaries, okay, different constituencies. And the problem is exactly the same problem that folks have with models in the direct marketing space is that for non-technical users, they hear model, and they’re like, oh, it obviously adjust to my program. It’s must have something to do with artificial intelligence. I hear all these things are great, these people are scored at the top, therefore they’re the best for me, and then they’re surprised when the results don’t match that. But any model has to be based on what your actual goals are, so if you’re using a response rate, a response based model and your goal is actually to increase high dollar donors. That model is not going to serve you. The people with the top score in that model are not necessarily going to be the high dollar donors. And so it was the same thing with the supporter scoring thie. It was a very good question, but it again starts from the data side of things rather than the gold side of things. We have all of this data. We have thes scores saying these supporters are our best ones. We should contact them every chance that we get our screening. Fill those right back. Yes, when i think a lot of it stemmed for for that, for a lot of people in for him in particular, asking the question that like which which one should i buy ? Right which model is best ? Which scoring which software should i purchase that you actually have to do the internal look looking in to find out what’s important to you before you decide what direction on demand that of the vendors ? Because it’s true, that all of these models can be adjusted when you are able to communicate what is actually valuable to your organization. Otherwise, you’re going to screen it. You mean screening ? Yeah. Yeah. That’s not commonly known. Now, i think i think most most orders say they just take the algorithms. Yeah, they’re provided the show. Andi. Everybody gets the same. Same right ? Yeah. Yeah, that that’s not leveraging that to its utmost. Yeah. That’s. A very good that’s. A very important point. I think people are just taking it and they figure well, there there’s a half a dozen vendors. So there are each have different a proprietary algorithm way. Have to pick one, right ? Not so. And not so you can. You can negotiate. Oh, yeah. I got a chorus thing just like the k p i s started you off area that’s. Two songs together. Ask for what you need and it doesn’t matter what how big the screening of doesn’t matter whether martin lundy or blackbaud or know it it is it is going to affect of the pricing, but asking the question it does not affect the pricing. So always asked the question of these air the things that are important to us. What would that mean for the price that you would offer on the model that you built that incorporates these things that are important to us. So find that out from a few different vendors when i was a good partner vendor is going to ask those questions of you the best ones will write they don’t know because they do try and have everybody tries to have an off the shelf product that’s going to be successful for the majority of users, but really the ones that are caring about donor-centric communication and really carrying about long term relationships with the non-profit that they partner with should be asking those questions because it is about building that custom model based on the weights and measures that are important to each of the organization and each individual program or department in the organization. Okay, in my experience, that’s it’s not surely aspirations on night. I’m an optimist. Yeah, there’s optimism and then there’s today i think you know that saying, you know, you know, but i just haven’t experienced it. I know i’m working planned e-giving fund-raising so i’m not, you know, i don’t have all the conversations with potential screening vendors, but i just have never heard this that you can negotiate. On tweaking tweaking of the yeah, i’ve never heard that i’ve always you know, i say whether it’s your own professional development like negotiating raises or what but if you don’t ask, you get everything is negotiable. Everything’s negotiable think lorts in london was negotiable. And speaking of an analyst there’s nothing that i like better than being told exactly what your goals are so that i can build something that it’s really going to be successful, right ? Yeah, that’s the battle them to anna and say, show me these numbers, right ? I come to and i say, i’m trying to figure out this about this co owners this i’m trying to figure out the answer to this question, and then she comes back to me with the metrics that solve for x better than actually just telling me ac okay, yeah, well, we still have ah, good number of minutes together left. What ? What else ? Maybe other questions that got asked or other things that came out of your that were in your session that we haven’t talked about yet ? What else is there ? Well, one question that i got wass what software solves this ? I’m paraphrasing, but basically it was what what do i buy that will make this ? Um but thiss kp i process ? Yeah, are there ? Are there tech solutions way ? Haven’t talked about that at all ? No, i don’t think everybody just wants that easy answer, right ? Nobody likes introspection, and there are tons and tons of software programs that can display your kp eyes, so if you’re looking for a data visualization, a solution that board a dashboard product there’s tons and tons of thumb out there and what i told this person was that if your issue is that you don’t have the staff, teo, learn new software and you don’t have the budget to buy something that isn’t going to solve all of your problems. Then don’t buy anything, put your kp ice and excel, but, um, in a word, doc, if you have and it really is the process and the conversations and having thie organization wide agreement that makes this powerful not you know all, i’ll create some great visualization for you, but i can create plenty of great visualizations using meaningless data. Some some some of this discussion reminds me of ah, strategic planning discussion still mean you’re getting organizational buy-in we’re all agreeing on common goals and the measures toward those goals. I mean, those goals inform the future direction of the of the organization. So there’s overlap between this and a strategic planning process. Yeah ? Oh, definitely. Yeah, and that was a big part of it. The draw. When ana came up with the session idea, i thought it would be she roped you in ? Well, no, i basically solicited her. But then she came up with the idea because ntcdinosaur like solo. So i mean, i don’t know, but i’m the one that speaks of these things all the time. And i was like, anna, your turn. But it was her idea. The session was great and i just fell in love with it because it’s not just about numbers, right and that’s what people think that’s always important question. Exactly agreement. It really is about the change. Even change management, strategic planning like all of you respect exactly. And that’s, i think is. So is it lost on a lot of people, especially at non-profits ? Where everybody’s wearing ? A lot of hats, everybody is doing multiple jobs and just trying to get the next thing done on the list that this really forces you. If you want to do a right to take a step back and think about how your day to day activities impact the mission, impact the strategic objectives and on go from there and i think that’s, i think that’s really refreshing for people to do just in general, whether you’re developing kp eyes or not, because it does make you think about why we do what we dio and people who work in non-profits as well as those who partner like us, who partner with them, we do this because we love right now work the outcomes of the mission that zit and we all get so tied up in the weeds of the day today that we forget about the mission and how amazing the organizations that we work with. Our and people have a very hard time because they’re wearing a million hats, hats, and they have way too much on their plate. They just need to get that next e mail out so that they have a very hard time. Deciding okay, today i’m going to stop and actually go through this k p i building process, but i would urged people to try it because, uh, wait, we have a couple minutes left, and i think we talked a lot about motivation. Hyre logistically, how do you take this on you ? We meet once a week, tio i mean, he’s, a big topic you can’t you can’t do this in a in a week now, but you meet once a week, over months or a couple days over every other. How did you do this ? Logistically, i would suggest tacking it onto the front of your annual budgeting process, so work back off from when you’re budgets are due to the board, and then when their due to your department lead and due to leadership, and then give yourself a minimum of a month, but ideally two months so it’s, like not unusual for to be a six month process from the time of the department objective and kp i development to the time that the budget is actually finalized and signed off on by the board. Okay, excellent, helpful and that forces you to revisit on at least. On an annual basis, right, because you’re reevaluating before that next expenditure budget is good into place annually now, okay, okay, yeah, we have, like a minute and a half left. I wantto make sure this fits just right. So where ? Who wants to leave ? Leave us with closing thoughts. You know what else to say ? Okay. I wish i had something easy. Tio. You’ve seen this working clients, right using transformation and clients in the process can work. Yeah, stamina. Devote your vote attention to it. And i have seen it make those data day tasks easier, because then you have fewer interruptions from other departments or from leadership trying to push you in a million different directions. Dahna. Okay, it’s. A really good point. That’s. A good place. Alright. Thank you. Thank you. Love are well done. Wonderful. Okay, thanks. They are on a road. Deputy director of analytics chapman, cubine and husi. And also brenholz vice president of digital at c c h. The interview is sponsored by network for good. Easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you so much for being with tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. Do you need help with accounting or your nine ninety ? Are you thinking about a change of accountants in this ? Ah, next in the next cycle for yourself. Check out weinger cpas. Dot com. You start your due diligence there, of course. And then talk to them. The partner ? Yeah. Huge tomb. You know, he’s been on the show. He’s a good guy. I trust him weinger cpas dot com the place to start now. Time for tony steak too. Do i say thank you too often ? If i do, please let me know, but i’m saying it now. I am grateful that we have the support we have now over thirteen thousand listeners, whether you are listening, live podcast or affiliate thank you if you’re following along on twitter. If you’ve, uh you’re following what we call it on youtube is just following subscribing if you subscribed on youtube twitter, youtube i thank you facebook, facebook, facebook fans! It doesn’t mean much anymore. It seems to have very much faded into sort of triviality. I remember the days we used to say like us on facebook. Facebook dot com slash twenty monday now provoc radio those were the dark days, but i’m grateful that’s it. Thank you. However you’re with us. Thank you very much. It’s. My pleasure to welcome back amy sample ward. You know her for god’s sake, she’s, our social media contributor in the ceo of and ten the non-profit technology network where we just heard a segment from for the last conference her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s that amy sample war dot or ge and at amy rs ward welcome back, amy simple word hi. Thank you for having me back. It’s always a pleasure. I am. I’m always waiting for the day when i just stopped getting invitations. Yeah, it’ll happen that way too. I won’t officially tell you. I’ll just stop course. Just slowly stop scheduling me and i will know it. It’s over. Yeah, i won’t even be slow. It’ll be abrupt. It’ll just have the thing. And then six months later, you’ll think about well, hopefully is not that long. Couple months later think packed. Jeez, tony hasn’t been in touch with me for, well, that’s the way it’ll happen. Um, okay, so we’re talking about fund-raising fund-raising underage. What ? Yeah. What ? Uh, put this on your radar. Well, you know, i don’t think it’s necessarily new. I think it is. Has old as the world of fund-raising, you know, centuries and centuries old. But it has been something that here and in ten. As as staff, we’ve been talking about a lot, especially in the last two year political climate on dh it’s the way that i would define thunder aging is you can think of it a bit a bit like peer-to-peer where it’s individuals it’s not necessarily on organization or staff members, people out in the community fund-raising and it’s, the fund-raising that happens or the campaigns that happen in response to things in the news, you folks in a specific geographic community care that something is being proposed or moving forward ? That’s going tio threatened a way that they live their life or the way that the organizations they support are able to do their work, and in response to that kind of anger, that rage, they want to feel like they’re doing something, and it doesn’t feel like there’s really anything that’s in their power to do in-kind of that complex world we live in of policymakers and government officials and all the way down to us citizens. And so they start a fund raising campaign to benefit those organizations that they support that they see as the ones who are in a position to try and make a change or support people experiencing whatever situation is happening. So it’s really driven by individuals reacting to the news, you know, whatever that news, maybe not saying that this is something that only happens in one kind of view or political party, but as as a country, i think we see these examples of fund-raising jane becoming more and more visible, bigger impact on dh more, yeah, so not new, but certainly amped up under thinks the twenty sixteen election and since donald trump is president certainly amped up on really throughout the country, but, you know, i even has they say both sides because i’m trying to get away from us being a polarized nation, but across all across all political spectrums amped up yeah, okay, okay, yeah, you know, there’s a there’s, a there’s, a sense that, right ? You know, it it comes from a sense of sort of incapacity, you know ? Yeah, i think it really is that powerlessness that i think a lot of communities feel where, where the ability to make policy or protect existing policy or change processes doesn’t feel like something they are ever a part of, and yet they’re impacted by the results of those changes and that powerlessness, i think, is part of that rage, right ? How could this happen ? But also, how could this happen and not include me when i am a person that is a part of this, and so a kind of counterbalance that there’s this feeling of ? Well, if there’s on top of us, you know that all donate five players surely will be able to pull those funds, you know, into this organization or into this movement that can’t help that a lot of this i think, comes from or is is related to what you and i talked about in august over marketing, you know, if if there’s if there’s an over marketing problem in the non-profit community, if we’re constantly at eleven on a scale of zero to ten, then you know where, where were guilty of amping up the amping up the rhetoric, right on dh, the passions and the anger and the outrage for sure, and, you know, we don’t have to go down that path, but i think fund-raising when done successfully and by successfully to meet a part of that means in conjunction with an existing organisation and you know kind of ah request or past that makes sense for them to move forward with when that happens. It’s, because organizations are not over marketing, right ? They are very clear there, very consistent. They are providing information that helped synthesize the news, the changes, the policies, whatever it is and demonstrates really clearly that they are part of the fight or the solution or the alternative path. And that way it’s clear for supporters again. You know, these aren’t necessarily campaigns driven by the organization’s. These air campaigns driven by community members who just are so fed up they want to do something. And so when organizations can be very clear and communication be very consistent about the the things they respond to in the news or the issues that they are going to speak about, it positions community members to know oh, my gosh, i’m so upset. You know, i heard this thing on the news, but i know this organization i support, i trust them. I know exactly what they do. I know exactly how they’re part of a solution that i want to see. I feel comfortable and confident starting to fund raise for them because i know where they stand, i know what they do, and i’m able to even borrow that language, you know, for my facebook poster for my, you know, fund-raising page and in a home run by the organization, they’ve given me the tools and resources to help me create a campaign, you know ? So exactly we’ll get to that because, you know, you want to have ideally you want to have these things in place so that the community is empowered. Exactly, yeah, do you because you want to benefit from this, you know, if your community is upset, there’s there’s a potential benefit for you if you’re working in that space ? Exactly. Do you have a sense of what ? What helps make thes campaigns more successful ? O or not ? Yeah, i mean, i think that like anything there’s going to be those examples that are true out liars on dh, you know, feel like magical unicorn rainbow fundraisers that happened, and we’re not necessarily trying to replicate those, but the things that you can do is an organization beyond what we were just talking about being really clear and consistent on the issues that you talk about, that you respond to in the news demonstrating and communicated kating, how you address those things do all of that, but also i think if you think about this as a peer-to-peer campaign that you’re just not launching, you want to go through some of the same steps, you want to make sure that as an organization you can take donations electronically, that you, you know, have that kind of donation button set up on your website, but also that your, you know, maybe registered on various other peer-to-peer donation platforms so that if people wanted to create a campaign for you, you’re in the system and they can, you know, attach to your profile and have the funds go to u s o that’s one kind of administrative step to take and then on a planning communication side of things, you want to make sure that you’ve done again some of those same peer-to-peer best practices, you’ve got some tool kits that are really easy to find on your website, really easy to follow that say, if you’re going fund-raising for and then you know, whatever your organisation’s name is, here are the things that we know are successful here’s what ? Our logo file is that people aren’t just making a version of your logo that’s not right here’s, you know our mission statement here’s what we’re doing on these kind of top five issues, whatever you think may end up being the things that kind of rage people into fund-raising for you, so you already have sametz tab lish talking points out there, so put some of those tool kits together on dh. I also think that it’s important to keep in that you know it doesn’t have to be a pdf. It could be a page on your website that is, quote unquote the tool kit. It could be a google dog, it could be whatever, but make sure it’s up to date and you’re including things that are even even for people who want to want to fund rage but don’t want to create a whole page for you somewhere or don’t want it to be a long term thing, but they’re kind of really easy to copy paste messages that point back to your donation form so even if they don’t have the capacity or or maybe skills and knowledge to set up a fundraising page for you, they could copy paste that facebook comment that says, you know, i support and ten this is what they’re doing on this issue here’s the donate link so that you can even get those folks, or maybe it’s the lighter end of the spectrum. We gotta take a break tell us you’ve heard from charities that referred companies for credit card processing, and they’re getting the revenue each month you’ve heard from the companies using tello’s for their credit card processing now can use more revenue that long stream of passive revenue that comes from the fees that tello’s urns from the companies you refer. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to amy sample ward. You ticked off a whole bunch of things there, andi, you didn’t have to go, but you were concise, you know, like you’re reading the outline for your next book for this chapter, fund-raising because, you know, i think that it’s important to keep in mind as like an idea about all of this is that this may be different from how organizations may think about other fund-raising campaign is that often really successful ? Fund-raising campaigns community led fund-raising campaigns the organization’s air in the background, but that doesn’t mean the organizations were not actively a part of that campaign being successful, so you don’t have to be the star because you’re going to be the start that’s all the talking points or about how you are going to do this change and that’s why people air are fund-raising you don’t need to be the voice that’s saying all of that so don’t feel like once somebody starts, you’re goingto kind of publicly jump on that and and you’re helping them by being really public about it. That’s actually, what you can do to help them is to be in the background reach out to them, send them an email if you know who they are, you know, send them a phone call and say, what do you need ? Do you need more messages ? We have staff to do that, you know, do you need images ? We can give you some images, help them and give them the fuel to make their campaign strong and don’t feel like you need to step out in front of it. I mean, you want to provide the infrastructure and an ongoing support, but but i think we actually counterproductive if you stepped in and started dahna messaging within their peer-to-peer campaigns, right o for sure we’re going the merciful st makes people feel like, do you even really care about this ? Are you just doing itcause ? This organization had you right ? I’m injecting, it loses that, yeah, you lose the first piela the pier is now the non-profit non-profit to the person’s peers who are not their peers, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s too long a string to abbreviate you can no longer abbreviated ptp. So exactly and i think what’s important to remember to is that the path you think might be most obvious or even easiest may not be the past for them and that’s ok, if they want to really focus on email because that’s who they are and they, you know, send lots of e mails every day and that’s where they know people will open their e mail and read it don’t tell them they need to be tweeting, you know, don’t tell them they need to post on facebook whatever channel somebody’s most comfortable with let them go through that channel. And say, you know, instead of giving you really easy to use tweets, we will write, you know, paragraph chunks for you to use that are compelling that have links to resource is whatever it is that’s going to help them in their outreach on dh you just have to be flexible tete that. Yeah, again, it’s you know, it’s it’s offering support. I mean, the first p knows where the second piece all right, where they hang out. You know, they know my friends. I know my peers put it in the pdp what’s a good word. I was structure, but lexicon samson in the lexicon, you know ? So i know where my penis will like these hangout, so don’t don’t tell me what i gotta do. Of course not. You’re interfering and yeah, yeah, no, i’m great. Yeah, but peace that’s interesting. And i would love to put you on the spot in here. Your thoughts to tony is is the way that these kinds of campaigns justice we’re talking about really centering the people who are fund-raising and not the organisation. How that means they are different in the way that you recognize those donors and supporters. The way that you recognize the work of that campaign on the way that you take credit for those funds, i think there’s a lot of nuance in that give in the way that these campaigns often start the reasoned that people give to them versus give teo you as an organization. Right ? I think it’s important to remember people are giving to that campaign to that rage and not necessarily to you as an organization, even though they are giving he was an organization, right ? So how does that, you know, maybe require, as an organization, you have different practices for the way you recognize and think those donors and those supporters that maybe you do when you run other campaigns yourself ? Yeah, i don’t take well to being asked questions on my own show on your own. Show it sze tony martignetti non-profit radio way. You just made my voice crack. I’m so upset. I know i would say you i would say you need to defer to the to the first p the person who ran the campaign for you, i guess first. Are they willing to share contact info toe let you directly. Thank the donors. To the campaign, maybe one. That all depends. Where did those donations go ? Over there, where the donations happening on a platform where, you know the contact information with saves captured, renamed not you know, i think there’s a lot of kind of technical russians in there too. Okay ? But even if i did capture it on my e-giving form online, i still would ask the the person that person’s permission because they know their peers better, you know, then, you know, how would you feel ? Would you mind if we, uh, could we thank them ? Wei have the info, but we’re not going to use it unless you, you know, let us say something or could re send a message from you to them and, you know, maybe the two of us, right, send a combined thank you message. Maybe our ceo signs it and you sign it, you know ? So what i want that’s a really great idea for for some instances, because you’re then maintaining the same relationship you had during the campaign where your job is an organization was to give them what they needed. And now you’re reinforcing their leadership in the community by saying we’re going toe thank you. And if you would like to, you can pass on our message of things to your, you know, to the donors, but you’re kind of still putting them in the position as the leader instead of the organization. Yeah, yeah, they’re they’re in the lead. I mean, there, there. Yes. It’s there it’s there community that they were fund-raising from so, um, yeah, you wantto elevate them ? Absolutely, uh, that’s, my son and i think it’s also important. I mean, when we think about this, any kind of fund-raising campaign as list building and what that means for future cultivation, whether more donations, bigger donations or other actions, you know, kind of other ladders of engagement. I think there are a lot of instances in fund-raising jean situations where the people who feel kind of fired-up and are supporting that effort are doing it in the way that’s not visible to the organization, at least from a like database perspective, you know, they’re not signing up on the organization’s website. They’re not donating to the organization through a donation form that the organization has access to, so they’re not coming on to the list, but these are people who are fired-up and finding ways against through those leaders who are kind of calling their community action, too continue giving them more news, continue giving them updates even after the maybe donation phase of it is over, but not lose contact with those people and continue to go back to them to say, hey, you know, we got a million dollars, which is not unheard of in some recent examples of fund-raising, you know, we got a million dollars in a week it’s been a month here, the eighteen long years that we’ve hired, we just wanted to let you know, you know, or here’s work that’s happening because of this so that they continue to be in a place where there almost spokespeople for for that action now, and they are saying, hey, i just got this word from the organization, this has been the impact of what we did, and, you know, they get to be the ones sharing that news because you don’t have a way to connect with other people, so at least make sure you don’t lose contact with those that you d’oh, we got to take a ah last break. Text to give, you’ll get more revenue because they make e-giving easy for your donors. If your donor’s consent a text, they could make a donation. We’re talking about that right now, it’s, part of your infrastructure, it’s simple, affordable, secure plus the ceo chadband oid very smart guy he spent set up a smart company um, it’s easy to get the info text npr for non-profit radio to four, four four nine nine nine npr to four, four, four, nine nine nine we’ve got several more minutes for fund-raising well, i’m very glad of within the sample ward would it was one thing i wanted to bring up is a question that has been brought up here at staff when we’re having conversations about this world of fund-raising jane and that is that you can’t anticipate when it’s gonna happen because of the news of the death everyday tension between, you know, you don’t really know what’s gonna happen in the world every day in advance. And what does that mean, given that it’s september right now, when people are probably have already done or at least starting to do now their end of year campaign planning ? So what ? Does it mean if you were, you know, done months of planning all this work ? You’ve launched your end of your campaign ? It’s ? You know, november, december, you’re running this end of your campaign. Something happens in the news. It’s that moment, you know, it’s okay, at least in my opinion, open tio what you may think, tony, but, you know, it’s okay to me, if that means your end of your campaign comes in way under goal and you stop tweeting about it because it may be more important to focus on this other angle where your community is fired-up in a different way, then continuing to almost compete with your community’s interests on, and i think that can be hard in the moment to say, oh, my gosh, we did all this work. We have all these goals and expectations are bored, you know, wants to do x y and z, and now we’re not gonna send this, you know, email out or something, but depending on, of course, you’re going to have to gauge what the community’s responses and all of that. But it may mean that you do let go of that end of your campaign. And that has to be okay. Maybe there’s a way to combine the two so that you know, so yeah. I mean, i definitely think it matters what the universe is, what the community is trying to campaign around. I think you could definitely, especially for your organization willing to do it. I have it in real time and make that end of your campaign talking points aligned with the communities, talking points, you know, if it’s not a huge departure from what you needed, what you needed to say anyway, that’s yeah, i agree. I mean, i would i would try toe message it so that you can you can take advantage of the the outrage. And and as you’re saying, you know, message it into your end of year, you know, it’s that it’s a tough one, because, i mean, i know a lot of listeners have small organizations with, like, one, two, three, staff people and, you know, end of year is like, you know, way may not make payroll if if we don’t do a certain amount in the in the fourth quarter or a lot, a lot of times, you know, like the month of december um, so it’s it’s hard, you know, you gotta yeah, i don’t think that you know, on the first tweet from a community member, you know, manage, stan, you’re not doing now, you’re doing it lightly, but i’m just, you know, i’m trying to balance the i’m trying to balance, you know, what’s not competing with your community, what your communities anger is and what they’re talking about. Versace, versace, you’re own your own messaging for the biggest campaign of your year. Um, i’m trying out for a lot of organizations that have a diverse fund-raising kind of palate with maybe online fund-raising and end of your fund-raising and major gift that it is just filters into maybe how you balance or prioritize amongst that grid, like maybe you say, okay, well, our online fund-raising focus will be supporting these community members who are tryingto lead some campaigns and, you know, are offline is just going to focus on our major donors, and they it might be an opportunity that they feel more compelled because now they see other people, you know, are coming coming to support the same organization that may be a lower financial level, but it still means something, so i think it’s really, about how it plays into the mix. Dahna yeah, yeah, i agree. I’m just considering the balance on a zai know how critical certain campaigns, whether it’s fourth quarter or not, you can be teo teo, people in to those organizations that are small, like i said, you know, one, two, three before employees, you know, i worry about making payroll and making, making rent payments that can that can keep you up at night, you know, you know, um, okay, we still got a couple minutes left. About two minutes or so left before we let you go. What else ? What else should we be talking about for two minutes ? Well, you know, i would be curious outside of on ly fund raging the ways that organizations are also using the news for, i don’t know howto turn raging into the end of other words, but, you know, these air really important moments for organizations for what we were talking about before, with this building and ad ad advil raging, i really committed to making raging part of the word, but, you know, finding ways where probably a little bit more on the fly, which is always hard for organizations, whether they’re bigger, small but finding ways to say, ok, this thing was said, here’s, how we feel about it, you know, do you stand with us something that doesn’t have to have any material outcome from it ? You’re now not, you know, producing an event or launching a program because you’ve said something but ways to get your community feeling like oppcoll they are with you, they know where you stand, you are getting that information back from them to be able to maybe segment your list really dynamically to say, wow, all of these people responded to this news item this day and, you know, these people didn’t that’s another wayto plan for cultivation later. So i think even if your community isn’t necessarily starting fund-raising campaigns for you or you’re not starting fund-raising campaigns in response to the news, you can still be using things that happen, whether they’re local or regional, are at a federal level, help you get more information about who your supporters are, what they care about, how they, how they came to sign up for you so that you can again better reach out to them. But think about your list before you start sending out fund-raising messages later. Yeah, it’s, not it’s, not all about fund-raising wait, we’re gonna leave it there and you say the word you’ll find her at amy rs ward and just follow her for god’s sake. You see all this wisdom ? Get it on twitter at amy or it’s war and also amy sample word dot org’s. Thank you so much, amy. Thanks, tony, my publisher. Next week, jean takagi returns with his take on donor advised funds if you missed any part. Of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p when you see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream, tony dahna slash tony tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr too for for for nine, nine, nine. Our creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. 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