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Nonprofit Radio for July 14, 2017: Social Change Anytime Everywhere, Part Deux

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Amy Sample Ward: Social Change Anytime Everywhere, Part Deux

Amy Sample Ward

We pick up where we left off last week with Amy Sample Ward, discussing her book, “Social Change Anytime Everywhere.” We’re covering your fundraising plan: scheduling; testing; staffing; budgeting; and tips for your website campaign. Amy is our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN). Her dad Tim joins in to share what it’s like to raise a social media scientist.

 

 


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Oppcoll no. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. The three fiftieth show is coming up july twenty eighth, two more weeks, the three fiftieth and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with dexter okla nation if i saw that you missed today’s show social change anytime, everywhere parte do we pick up where we left off last week with amy? Sample wards book social change anytime everywhere covering your fund-raising plan scheduling, testing, staffing, budgeting and tips for your website. Campaign amy’s dad tim joins in to explain what it was like to raise a social media scientist, and this originally aired on april nineteenth twenty thirteen on tony take two thank you, responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here’s amy sample ward with her book social change, anytime everywhere part do i’m always pleased to welcome amy sample ward to the studio she’s membership director at non-profit technology network and ten, as i said her most recent co authored book social change anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement the forward is by two time guest of this show, craig amar, the founder of craig’s listing craigconnects no, sorry work that in there that he’s been on the show twice her blogged is amy sample, ward dot or ge and she’s at amy r s ward on twitter. Welcome back, kayman sample work. Thank you for having me back. It’s. Always a pleasure. Um, i guess my one of my first my first question is on the cover of this book the word’s, any time and everywhere. I’m showing her the cover now to remind her of the are separated. But they are not hyphenated. Why? Why aren’t they hyphenated the way proper english would be any hyphen time? Because they’re in different lines and every hyphen. Where where is the copy editing on this? On this cover? Yep. I don’t think i’m gonna let you just go by with this job. It’s it’s apparently thie design aesthetic. Okay, which you had no control over, i guess. Okay. Okay. I think this should be hyphen. I mean, i think these things are important in in language. All right. But it helps you enunciate the title very well. Any time, every right. Trying to learn how to spell her. You would think that any time was two different words. And and it’s, not it’s, not everywhere is not two different words. It’s. True. Okay, um let’s. Ah, i like to reflect a little bit. Okay, we talk all the time about online engagement, teo. And with what’s been happening this week, if you are engaged online on your charity, does nothing at all related to anything around violence or maybe victim or family support or politics of guns. Your charity has nothing to do with any of that. How do you respond? What do you do online, too? Let people know that you’re you’re conscious of what happens in the world. That’s outside your own. Sure, i think i mean first i would say i understand the argument of, you know, we don’t work on the politics of gun issues. However, you probably work with people and ultimately in any crisis or disaster, people are involved, you know, and reminding your own staff that it’s not just about bombs or terrorism. This is still about people and treating whatever response, whatever communication you have next in that light that there are people involved in this, i think helps you just take the right tone regardless of where you go next, because you’re then being responsive to what if it was you, you know, you would want someone to treat you or your city or your issue like people were involved. Next it’s a great opportunity to go check any scheduled messages you have any tweets or facebook post that air maybe already scheduled about something else. Also, look at your content calendar. You know where we planning on sending out an email appeal this week? That was, you know, using the story of this great little kid, and now maybe we don’t want to do that story or maybe not that message it all this week, you know, not that you have to completely shut down every organization didn’t stop this week, but trying to be responsive, teo, the fact that, you know, even in your own goals, you’re probably not going to get the analytics or the metrics you wanted, you know, no one’s going to be clicking through that email anyway, if that’s not what’s on their mind so looking at not just scheduled tweets, but what’s on your what’s scheduled to go up on your block what’s scheduled to go out and email looking at all of that immediately so that you can either put things on hold, readjust change, maybe which story was going to be in a newsletter? You know, there’s things like print ads or direct mail that that that’s already out there, you know? But people also don’t look at the newspaper and think, i can’t believe that this ad ran like because in our minds, we know that that’s not like a real time media. We know that that’s program six weeks in it, right? Exactly, but when you see something go up on twitter, you know, when you everyone else is just watching twitter for news updates it it really does feel a little bit more careless because they know that you let it happen. You know, you could have changed that tweet. We talk a lot about engaging with people online not so dissimilar lee from the way we engage with people face to face, you know? And when when i saw you earlier today, we you know i told you that i was feeling raw and sensitive and you know, that was that was really basically after right after hello, yeah, so, you know, i’m doing that in it, and i’m sure i’ll do that with friends. I meet for dinner tonight. It’s not it’s, not unlike online when you can have a conversation about this, or at least share your feelings when it really oppcoll just doesn’t deal with your data your day to day world, right? It’s it’s never going toe i mean, i don’t want to say never as if any statement could ever be, you know, all all encompassing, but for the most part, it’s not going to hurt your organization to say something like our hearts are going out to the victims and here’s a link to resource is or hears, you know, the the google spreadsheet that was created to help, you know, people say i’ve found this person or this person is missing, you know, like that it doesn’t hurt your brand, it doesn’t hurt your cause even though you might work on a totally separate mission to say, hey, we know this is happening and we want to make sure that we’re one more post in your facebook stream. That’s pointing to resource is instead of to something else. Okay, excellent. Well, we’re going to pick up with where you and i left off last month. It was march fifteenth with the fund-raising plan. We have just met and a half or so before we go away for a couple of a couple minutes, why don’t you just tease a little bit? Share? What? What we might be talking about with respect to a fund-raising plan. Sure. I think last time we talked kind about the components of the plan and this time we can get and i think to the nitty gritty, a little bit more like what does a be testing really look like in a campaign? Especially in real time? How do you figure out what’s working and keep kind of iterating as you’re in the middle of the campaign? And then also, what does that look like for your organization? Who’s involved once the campaign is live, is it just that development director or other staff? You know, playing into that campaign on then? Even what does it look like on online? What is what? Is your website need to do to be responsive to the campaign? Okay, maybe testing? Yeah, i don’t i’m not sure that that really qualifies for jargon jail. I’m not really feeling like putting buy-in george in jail today, and it probably doesn’t even really qualified. But well, why don’t you just explain what a be testing is? Sure. So for the most part, you could test everything on your website just by saying, well, it’s, their people are clicking on it, they like it, but it’s a little bit more scientifically valid. If you say have two buttons and people when they came to your website, they’re being presented with one of two buttons, and then you can just leave it up for a few days and say, gosh, anyone that saw the blue button clicked three times more than anyone that saw the red button, for example, so it’s just changing one component at a time with two versions so that you can figure out which works better and then start changing the next thing. And you’re directing people to both of them? Yes, simultaneously. Yep, i guess. Randomly, exactly. Okay. And you? You have an excellent example. In the book about the the clinton bush haiti fund, and we’ll talk a little about that. Ok, we go away for a couple seconds. When we come back, amy and i will continue this conversation about about her book and and your fund-raising plan stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, not too many live listeners today, i’m suspecting that a lot of people are if they’re online, they’re looking at cnn or some other some other news source that they trust. But i will say, live listener love out too. Forest grove, oregon and new bern, north carolina also since you taiwan ni hao and for korea, we have listeners in seoul and young in korea on yo haserot glad that you’re very glad, very glad that you’re with us. Thank you. Um okay, kayman sample word let’s talk about some of these details of of a be testing. What does this look like? Well, you can do it. I mean, even though we used the example before of your website, you can do it on anything. You know, you could do it in an email. Newsletters on little micro sites, it’s. Just a page essentially, whatever. Wherever you’re trying to put content out, you could do a be testing. So it could mean different photos, different buttons that text it could also mean having a photo or no photo, you know? Ah lot of organizations will do. A b testing specifically around fund-raising with on that on that donation page, does it have a photo or does it just have the form? Or, you know, does it show maybe a image of some sort that shows, like how they’re using the funding, for example, or what the project looks like that they’re asking for money for or again, is it just the form, you know? So and that’s it it’s going to change it’s not going to be the same for every single organization? You know, you have to do that testing because if especially if you’re an organization that’s used a lot of images in your campaign in your appeals that’s, you know that it’s driving people to remember what, what this is all about maybe having that photo there again, we’ll just keep that emotional tie to the campaign. But if it’s your raising money for something that you haven’t been using, that kind of graphical support for, well, maybe people would get there and say, why do you have this random photo of a child up here? You know, so so you wanted to be consistent, but you also want a test to see. What’s going to get the most completion on that form. Ok. And so i just said quickly before the break. You are you are you randomly? Your technology is randomly assigning people two different a and b version that’s what they be testing it first to a and b version is that is that what happens? So there are all different levels of sophistication, so you may be using a tool google has? Uh uh, baby testing tool optimize. Lee is another pretty sophisticated tool to use for that, especially around your website. But with email marketing, you could just say we want to send you don’t have the list this message and half the list this message or say you have a thousand people on your email list, send the first one hundred message a the next one hundred message be and then wait two hours, see which one had more opens and then say, great, we’re going to go with that message to the other eight hundred. Okay, so this could be that instantaneous. We’re just a couple of hours. Exactly. Okay. Okay. Now, an email, a popular thing to test is a subject line. Right? You could. Be having different versions of a subject line, right? Everything else would be the same. Exactly. The message inside is the same. But having, you know, a call to action versus you know anyone, regardless of which side you support anyone that’s on a political list. You’ve seen them testing those subject lines. You see messages coming almost every day during campaign season. Sometimes it just has one word. You know, sometimes it has your name in it sometimes it’s a really long call to action and that’s just those campaigns testing out what’s getting the most people to open this on the on the fund-raising landing page side, you have the example of the clinton bush haiti fund. They changed something so subtle, just the words within the button that you click right. The red, they have a red button and i have i’ve read that red is a very powerful color. Red is supposed to be very good button color for donate now for donation buttons or buy buttons. So they changed it from submit that the word in the button was submit to support haiti, and they got a fifteen percent increase in dollars per page view. Just something so subtle is that exactly and part of that, you know, some organizations think, well, we don’t want to write submit because normally, you know what we want them to do is donate or whatever their word choice, maybe, but if you have all throughout your website, if you keep using the word support, support us through your donations, support us by taking this action, and then someone gets to a page where there’s a button that says donate well, it feels really weird because you’ve already been consistently using this other word, so that consistency is important, you know? And again, if if you go look on your website now and you see that on your you’re donate paige it’s the only place you say there were donate but the rest of the time you really are talking about, support us financially. That’s an opportunity to do some testing because maybe donate works for your organization, and you should change those other places where it says sport or the other way around. Okay, excellent example, right of potential testing. Another thing they did there. There’s. This little geo trust verified icon i guess that it’s a trustworthy site right? Forgiving is that what that is, right? And there are all different kinds of those, you know, whether it’s charity navigator, geo trust like all those different things that say, basically, we’re not goingto take your money and do something else with it, i guess again, there’s different levels of what these other certification sites mean to, but some places have found, you know, some organizations found that by putting those kinds of seals of approval, i guess you would say on the donation for more on the button, they saw a big increase, but others have found like they did. You know, when you when you take it away, you actually haven’t they well, they decode, they had to do when they when they took that away, they lost five percent revenue right per page view. Exactly. There’s a trusted icon similar to papal, verified on the commercial side. Exactly. So people have gotten really used to, even if people don’t necessarily know what geo trust is or they don’t know what you know, charity navigator is they don’t know what they are, but the fact that it says it’s verified, you know, someone’s looked into these people give some amount of trust some of the things that you suggest it could be changed on dh tested form fields, how many form fields you have, the donation amounts that air suggested those little radio buttons that you click ten, twenty five, fifty hundred and that’s a really big thing to change, especially, you know, certain campaigns have found easy ways to mix that up because if they had a number involved in the campaign, you know, if if the campaign was around ah, holiday and it was on the thirteenth or it was a military campaign and they wanted to use the six as there number, and so then you just have increments of six, and you, maybe you say sixty is the default, right? Whenever organizations test that out, often they find people that the hyre number really does get donated because they’ve just mixed it up a little, you know, they didn’t defaulted to ten, you know, they put it up there a bit because people will still put it down if they want to have a smaller number, you know, but showing kind of the idea with where that preset radio button selection is. Is basically trying to say this is the average gift. This is the normal donation. So it’s not, you know, we’re expecting you to do this, but, hey, most people are doing this one thats why its preset on sixty. You know, eso it just encourages people. Tio not think oh, this is just a ten dollar or that’s, just the twenty five dollar normal donation, you know, so putting different numbers in there that are, like, thirty three and, you know, throws people a little. We have. We have tim sample on the line, tim samples called, and this is amy’s dad, he called in last month. Tim. Tim sample, how are you doing in oregon? I’m doing good doing good and plays it’s it’s already done, or or a gun? Oregon where there’s no evil or he’ll help you. Oregon. All right, there you go. You go. Oregon. Are it’s not gone? There’s no e at the end. Oh, thank you. Alright, oregon, but i’m a i’m right in the middle of work right now, but i’ve had an opportunity to come down on my desk and lock the doors. Nobody bought it. I’m at your disposal. Thank you, tim. You know, i wanted to ask you. I have here with me. You know, this little kind of sort of shrinking kind of wallflower, you know? Never not very engaged. Not very out there. What? What? What is she always like this when she was growing up? Oh, you’re talking about my daughter? Yeah, i know. I know. It’s. Hard to tell. Yeah. Yeah, alright, now, but without the sarcasm has always been a type a personality. Yeah, and always always engaged. Like, was she in? A lot of i could’ve asked her, but it’s more fun to ask you. Was she out there? Like, in activities in elementary school in high school? I mean, she’s, the online engagement, everything poster poster will be, could everything she could possibly get involved with. She was involved with her mother, and i tried to give her every opportunity to try every sport, every activity you wanted, you know, you know, as parents, we tried to do that for her. Can. My god, you know a good example of amy. I tell this story. He probably doesn’t remember it. But in the second grade, i said anything. You got your homework. Done well, yes. He had two next day’s homework done the whole weeks. Only john had read three chapters ahead. It was the last time we ever ask her if she had her homework done. Never had to worry about amy school or anything. Okay. And always self directed, always always getting right with it. And and i feel like he is right now. I know and engaged also. Always engaged with the public. Yes. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. How did we know that she’d end up a consultant and someone that people look to for advice about online engagement? Did you see this coming? I thought he’d be president united states by now myself? No, no pressure. Thanks, dad, but i didn’t want to go into politics. I amy always had a sense of what was right and wrong, you know, always interacting with other children. You know, she always knew what was right or wrong. She never made bad decisions that i can see. And if she did so well, i hit way didn’t know about it. All right, well, we’re back, but she has a sphere of alligators. Is that is that you’re doing? Is that is that? You’re doing, she has a fear of alligators, is that you’re doing a fear of alligators. You’re not aware of this? Well, we don’t have many alligators over here where we live in oregon and oregon in oregon, oregon. Now i know i never knew he had any fears at all. Tony all right. It was an example after a trip to florida, and tony will let me live it down if it comes up to you. Okay. Yeah, i have a fear of snakes. Oh, i don’t think i pass that on to her. I don’t know if alligators are reptiles like snakes are alligators may or may not be reptiles. Maybe maybe look together. Alright. Alright. We’re gonna let you go back to work, tim. All right, perfect. Thank you very much for calling the opportunity. We’re going. You don’t have to your daughter by tim sample. Okay. Goodbye. All right. I wanted to have some fun. Do that that’s fair. Okay. This’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. You are in charge of the shop. Future president. I know i the bar’s pretty high now. Yeah, i in fact, when alison find was here last week, i asked her if she thought that a presidential candidate could emerge outside the two major parties from online on, and she felt that it could eventually, but that we would see local local races first. Mayor’s maybe governors or senators, you know, but more local than presidential right away. But i was i had you in mind. I had your president cha operations. I don’t. I want to. You know, there’s. Another election coming up it’s true only only only few years. It’s. Really? Not all that far away. So exactly. Okay, she felt it was possible. Do you think it’s possible for a for their previous president there emerges online. Yeah, especially. I think around someone from a grassroots campaigning background not political, necessarily, but someone that’s that’s already actively working online to bring people together for other social issues or other kinds of campaigns. So so someone who’s in it in that way, i think, could easily cross over to say great. Well, now i want to run for for an elected position versus i’m just going to be the organizer that keeps this. Keeps this movement going. Okay. You have anybody in mind? Apparently i need to put myself in the strike don’t talk about other candidate. Exactly. Were we stupid? All right, i will go on the record shows up today never mentioning another candidate. All right, um, let’s oh, there was one more thing. I want to point out that matching gif ts is another possible, maybe another another possible testing. So oh, exactly the existence of or how big a match might be, right? Especially, you know, something to think about with phrasing of matching gifts is there’s the version of, you know, if we get to this number, we get that same total matched or every ten dollars gets matched. So then people think, well, my ten dollars isn’t going to mean much to this really big pot. We have to get two of twenty thousand, but if instead you say the matches, you know, dollar for dollar, whatever you khun give, how does that affect your community? Because some communities may really get behind the idea of, like, having to get to that really big number together and other communities want to feel like they’re five dollars, was still matched and still meant ten dollars, for the organization. So think about the way you use the match in your campaign, and several weeks ago we had a university professor on from university of chicago john list talked about scientific research around matching gift does does a three to one match necessarily pulled more than a one to one match? Right and where and on dh? Also in the phraseology of the match, the way you’re describing and that will show was on february eighth of this year. If you want to hear discussion about the scientific research specifically around matching gift excellent, we’re going to take more of a break, another break, and when we come back, we’ll talk more about who gets involved in the campaign, some budgeting, maybe some calendar ring and things like that and also tony’s take too, of course, comes before all that. Stay with me more with amy coming up first pursuant, check them out for lots of free resource is week after week, um, urging you to browse the collection, as my library used to say in elementary school, browse the collection that was when we had those card catalogs looking that they weren’t literally index cards or little cards were that brass rod ran through the ran through the middle on the bottom of the cards. It was always shiny and slippery, and you could get their little those little cards. And they used the dewey decimal system. We don’t know. Uh, we still use the dewey decimal, so i don’t even know. Do it. Yeah, but browse the collection and pursuing its much easier than the brass rotted dahna card catalogs of yesteryear. And where do you go? So you click. You go to pursuing dot com and you click resources. And then as you start your browsing the maybe the blogged or webinars or content papers or infographics. It’s all right, there. No card catalog required pursuing dot com. We’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. You need money for your good work? Yes. Throw a spelling bee. You know i hate the word. Let us. I got stuck on lettuce was or greenlee was all it was all iceberg at the time. I hate the word. Let us i love but thea tangible manifestation of the word i enjoy but not the word itself. I digress. Host a spelling bee make millennial money. These are ideal fundraisers for millennials with spelling bee. And live music, et cetera. Stand up. Comedy dancing check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and talkto alex career the ceo now time for tony’s take two. Thank you so glad that you are with us. Whether it is let’s, do it backwards. I hate to break with tradition. It’s it’s so risky, but we start with the affiliate affections. And i am so glad that our am and fm listeners are with us week after week wherever your station fits us into there. Line up. So glad to have you with us podcast pleasantries always going out two the two are precious podcast listeners precious podcast pleasantries. I’m not going to do that every week now. Two’s enough podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand listening in the time shift so glad that you are with us thank you. And alive listener love always goes out you know who you are you know where you are. I can’t shut you out by city and state this very day. Although i will be able to next week and the week after live listener love to you thank you for being with us and also, if you are a non-profit radio insider and i get into your inbox every thursday. Thank you for letting me in there. I’m grateful that is tony, take two. And here is amy sample ward continuing with her book, social change. Anytime everywhere you gotta get this book for god’s sake, just get it. Amy who’s, who should be involved in this work? And how are we going? Estimate the time that’s going to be involved in our online campaign? Sure, i think fund-raising campaigns just like any other campaigns organization, maybe running advocacy list building, you know, community engagement, etcetera can’t be thought of as something that’s completely contained within the fund-raising department, because ultimately there are e mails and there’s this a b testing on the website, and all of those other components require all different staff from different departments. So it’s an opportunity to create, i think, processes we suggest in the book, where you will have regular opportunities for staff across departments, not necessarily like on all staff meeting, but staff across departments that are ultimately all creating the success of that campaign to come together, whether that’s like every week or however your organization wants to do it. To have a meeting where you’re all in the room at the same time, or all on video chat or whatever you want to do so that everyone’s talking about it. So as soon as you break that campaign down into the people that are in charge of the email never talked to the people that were in charge of actually counting how many people are coming through the form, then you’ve already said, well, we’re not even going to have the best conversation we can have with this campaign staff aren’t talking to each other, so creative process first, so that everyone involved is coming together regularly to talk about kosh, we saw that this button language was the best. Well, the e mail better have that same button language. You know, any abie testing that you’re doing anything you’re learning about what’s working with the campaign should then be immediately reflected in all the other components. So how you either evaluate ahead of time, staff time or recognize all those different pieces are maybe serving the rest of the organization. So thinking of of people in communications is not just communications staff that all they do is communicate. But they also served fund-raising and they also serve advocacy, and they also served programs. So what does that mean as far as your staff plan? And what does that mean for your value evaluation of staff? You know, those communications staff in this example couldn’t just say, well, my job is to send e mail and i sent them, but how, you know, how was your function in this organization, reflective of our success in our fundraising campaign were reflective of the success in our advocacy campaign so that it’s showing that that person isn’t just responsible for hitting send on thousands of emails but showing them even in their own evaluation, that they’re part of the whole organization success, which i think is critical for having all of your staff buy-in toe working towards your mission, you know, as soon as you say, well, your job is just the website what their job is the web site, because it’s serving the mission of helping people understand you know what your your cause is all about and so did did they lead the baby testing that help figure out that that button actually could have, you know, in increased by fifteen percent the donations that’s huge that’s, not just the fund-raising team that’s also that person who’s managing the website. What about the smaller shop? Just a two or three person arts group? I mean, how are we going to build even? Ah, modest campaign into what we’re trying to. We’re struggling to keep get getting done day in, day out, right? I think for smaller organizations, but really, the same lesson applies to everyone. Ah lot of of the components of the campaign are actually developed way in advanced. If you’re collecting stories actively as you are working with your community year and you’re keeping those stories not just on a piece of paper in your desk, but, you know, kind of like a story bank you have, you have ah, bank. You could draw from of all these different stories then in that moment when you need to create a campaign, maybe it’s a response of campaign because some horrible event has happened. And you want to make sure people are aware of your services. You know, for example, you have that content. You don’t have to then spend a week developing. Okay, who’s who from our community do we want to talk to you know, where could we get a story about our services in action? You’ve already created that content in advance, so especially when you only have two people, the more you can do to just kind of be librarians, you know, tio, cart, chronicle and archive all that you have all the time so that you can really easily just say that’s, you know, the book i want that’s, the story i want off that shelf and let’s put it into this email and then again, a be testing is so, i think, critical for really small shops, because if you really can just say, we’re going to send this e mail to one hundred people each and then know that the one that got more opens is what we’re going to send even though it took you maybe an extra five minutes to go back and say, okay, now send this list that was a really great five minutes, because it means you’re getting that many more people opening that message. Let’s look, a tte budgeting our campaign may involve some adwords facebook, facebook yeah, how are we going toe? How do? We figure out what what we should be too spending money on is beyond the time that also is an indirect, indirect cost, right? First, obviously, you know, you have to have the caveat of it all depends what’s your campaign about where is your community? Ah lot of people have have realized that you’re not necessarily just going to make all of your money from your fund-raising campaign on facebook, but a lot of those people that are participating as donors, maybe on your facebook page. So thinking about how you budget for promotion of the campaign versus budget, for the call to action, you know, you may want to just invest in having ads showing the efficacy of your work so that when people are then emailed a call to donate, they’re like, oh, yeah, you guys do really great stuff. I do want to donate via email because that’s my, you know, i’ll just click don’t and go to your website, but maybe it’s different for your forget it community, maybe your community doesn’t really know, and they just need to be told, like there was a disaster and donate, you know, it depends a lot in the circumstances, i think it’s also, especially with things like facebook, where they’re changing the algorithm like every five hours you have to do so may be testing, you have to invest in that a be testing. So you know which of these ads are working better? Do we do promoted posts, or do we do ads? So some of it is just having a reserve of that advertising budget to test with, and you don’t have to spend a lot of money now, like facebook ads are not expensive, right? For-profit lee fifty dollars or so you could oh, exactly, you attest? Oh, for sure, yeah, and the problem or the great opportunity that could become a new obstacle for organizations, is that when you get in there to do a facebook at our, you know, promoted post, you’re you’re presented with the opportunity to pick like which gender location, background so many details, but it can either be overwhelming and you just say, well, i just wanted to go to everyone, and then you’re going to run out of that fifty dollars budget instantly, you know, or you get so narrow and who you want this ad to? Go, too, but it never really goes to anyone. So i think there’s a little bit of opportunity, teo play even just with that, that scale of who do you really want to promote this to? Who is your donor? And what do you know about them? Which goes back to what we talked about months ago, about how, you know, investing and knowing who your community is first, so that you can say the right things on the right channels, and i appreciate that your advice always is. What are the goals of the campaign right now, and not only to raise the money that that? Well, actually, the campaign may not be about even about money, but may not only be the explicit purpose of the campaign, but also to grow engagement in the long term, bring some new people to the cause may not even fremery respond to your call to action, but now they’ve joined your community exactly, exactly. And for them this you know, your campaign that maybe their friend donated teo was the first time they had heard aboutyou, but they’re now hearing about you in a really trusted way because they heard that. A friend not only supported your work but gave money to your work, and now they just want to follow along, and eventually you can, you know, encourage them up that ladder of engagement to become a donor as well. And in that respect, not everything in your campaign has to be about the call to action, right? I mean, i know i guess you want the called action to be frequent, but there can be things that are informative beyond the call to action. Exact. I think a lot of organizations will shook about a fundraising campaign, i think. Okay, first and foremost, they’re donating to this campaign. They’re going to donate to this campaign. They really get that out there, and then people donate and then there’s nothing else, you know. So people feel like, well, i did the thing, but there has to be more aiken dio so recognizing that there is always more they khun dio having that thank you, paige, push them to the very next step. What’s the next step for you is that great. Thanks for donating here’s the button to share on facebook that you just donated, you know, or is the email confirmation encouraging them to share their story about why they donated so that now you have one more story and your story bag, you know, so think about what people can do to still feel like they’re contributing to this forward motion because they already donated, which is huge, so don’t take someone who’s willing to take a really big action and then just dropped them off, keep them, you know, sustained that engagement and keep them engaged so that you can ask them to donate again, you know, if they haven’t heard from you, and now you’re asking again for them to donate well, they feel like don’t you remember that i already donated? But if you’ve said, you know, hey, share this on facebook? Hey, give us your story, etcetera, and then you say thank you for donating. Please help some more. They feel like yes, of course we are trying to get there together. What is ah, home page hijack? Uh, it’s called many things, but basically i’m sure most people have experiences when you go to a website and you just, you know, landed on the website haven’t clicked on anything, and then something pops. Up, even the new york times does this you think you’re going to go read an article from the new york times that your friend just tweeted that and there’s a thing that pops up that says, don’t you want to pay for new york times content? Why don’t you subscribe? That’s that’s ah, home page hijacked, for example, it’s basically a light box that pops up and says, whatever you thought you were here to read. This is what we want you to read and it’s great for people that if they really are just hitting your home page because maybe they were, you know, searching online for something and came to your website, they don’t know or you’re directed people back to your website, and it can pop up and say, this is what’s happening here is the called action here’s, that big red button that says support haiti or whatever, and obviously they could close out of the box or lorts like off it, etcetera, but the fact that it makes it super front and center lit literally front and center on the website helps direct that traffic into the call to action where you could maybe. Instead of them seeing your home page that’s, you know, normally fairly generic has lots of navigation, et cetera and drives them to a page that’s just about the campaign, you know, really focus. They can see the donate form they khun see whatever helps funnel people just to the campaign instead of accidentally clicking unlike, oh, what is this organization about? And what do you do and what’s? This other thing? I see a photo of, you know, it just helps funnel people in where you want them to go. You have advice about how frequently someone may see that home page hijack, so maybe it shouldn’t be more than once a week person and the technology will support that our exam twice a week per person or whatever you think exactly, yeah, i mean, it’ll where people out if every time they go to any page of your website, they’re getting this pop up essentially, you know, but if you can say yeah, once a week or the first time someone comes to the website because maybe outside of a fundraising campaign, you could use that for many things you could have it say, join our email list. You know, subscribe to our news, whatever you want that pop up to be. So if you see that every time, well, gosh, i signed up a week ago, and i’m seeing it every day, you know, so just may be the first time that i p address hits the web site, you know? We’re going to take a break in about a minute. We want to have some print possibly to be in support of our campaign. I want to just open that topical bit. We’ll talk more about it shortly. Sure, i think print is actually a great medium, especially for fund-raising still one of the main drivers of fund-raising effort so looking again at that piece as a way to frame all of the content that’s going to come later because you’re going to be ableto change up at the very last minute, what you tweet and what you put in an e mail, etcetera. But if that print piece supports that overall call to action, the overall message and maybe has just won fairly general story that you can then really dig into that story of what that person’s you know, experience was or what those services mean to the community it’s a great way to frame things as a oh, yeah, i remember this. You know, every time they then get an email from you. All right, we’ll talk more about this and the and the fund-raising plan in general, when we return with amy, sample ward, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from a standup comedy, tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page. Tony martignetti dot com i’m christine cronin, president of n y charities dot orc. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Hi there again and welcome back. Uh, anything more that you want to say about print in support of this, i would i would add that prince should certainly be needs to be in this fund-raising calendar with a campaign calendar that we talked about last month and it’s something that we’ve talked about in the past, i forget what episode number, but we talked about competition and how teo, you know, if if you were doing a phone bank, for example, of donations and you and you mentioned the research shows, at least if you were to mention, you know, the previous collar don’t thisyou know people are more inclined to say, well, i’m going to do that if someone else did print is a really easy way to do that as well, because you clearly know where they live, you are mailing something to them. So say, on average, people in your neighborhood donated this last year to our campaign. Oh, my gosh, now they like now i’m going to look in on my neighbor’s like which ones of you donated one hundred dollars? Now i feel guilty, i’m going to donate a hundred dollars, you know? So so keep those same principles that you use online with making it be a riel story, having it connected to something directly when your mission have a very clear call to action. But then take advantage of that local competition that peer pressure of this is this is really, really in your neighborhood. But also this is how people are actually helping us. So you should too. We can also have competition in telemarketing right in our telephone call once just remind i think this may have been last month, but in the way that callers are greeted, andi encouraged or thanked for their past giving there could be some competitiveness. Exactly. Exactly. So i’m not just saying like, oh, thanks you want to donate, but also, you know oh, you have reviews caller. Exactly. The previous collar donated this. And if you can, if you can hear sometimes, you know it’s it’s hard to just make a judgment. But if you could hear that it was a male calling and you could say, oh, well, the man before you donated this, if you if you have that opportunity to be gender specific, the results or even hyre from studies that say, you know, once i’m told the previous collar was a woman and she don’t even more than me well, man, i want to donate as much as her, so all right, let’s, let’s wrap up our campaign with the thank you’s yes, thank you’s are critical and thank you don’t have to be at the end of the campaign. Thank you should be every time someone’s done something, so when they sign up for that email lists, you know, thank them if they donated, thank them, but also do that thinking in public when you can, you know, you’ll see people in the campaign putting on facebook that they, you know, because they got to the thank you page, the confirmation page, and they tweeted, or they posted to facebook that they just donated, well, that’s a great place if the organization is then liking that post, if you you know, privacy settings are such that you can see their post or on twitter, the organization is retweeting them to them that’s huge validation the organization noticed that i just tweeted out, you know, that i donated and i’m i got retweeted or i got thanked publicly and that certainly doesn’t take, you know, a lot of effort, you’re not creating any new content you’re just saying thank you very much, but it can mean a lot publicly for the community to see those individual voices being thanked. How do you feel about the mailing of small, maybe small tokens? Oh, yeah, of gratitude o i think i think a hand written note, even if all it says is, you know, tony, thanks so much for your donation. Amy. It was a hand written note. It had to go through the mail, you know? It means a lot exactly could be something online, maybe maybe a little gift certificate or a discount to a site or something. Exactly how else can we say the small ways of saying thank you, right? And i there are lots of ways where, you know, and and ten we can say thank you by saying, you know, to thank you for what you’ve done here is a free webinar, for example, you know, web in our past, but for other organizations, it can also be an opportunity to say, because you donated, you’re now invited to this event that’s only for our donors, you know, so you’re also providing access to something that is otherwise exclusive, and you can use that as a way to say, hey, all of our donors are going to be joining us at this, you know, a local place that everyone knows is really fun or, you know, historic or whatever come join us in this, and it doesn’t have to be, you know, because he’ll be a national campaign, but you could say, if you’re a donor, you’ll get the link to the live stream and you get to be there for this interview with our founder or whatever, and even if people don’t want to go it’s still saying, we know tony, you donated, and we want you as part of this conversation, just the act of inviting exact is very, very it is very gracious exactly in heimans larger organizations that i that i work with will often invite people on the other side of the country to a luncheon that we’re hosting in new york city to to say thank you right way don’t expect them to come. We know the observers are tiny that they will, but the act of the invitation what if they were going to be in town for other business where they were going to be in town, meeting with someone? And now they can say, oh, while i’m there, i’m also going to go to this luncheon because i donated and that’s really cool, you know, i’ve never asked you this. You’ve been on many times. What is it that you love about the work that you do, this whole body of work that you that you’re involved with? What is it you love? I i love the people like i love that we are in a position to get to support not just one person that we’ve met, you know, and, like, help them do whatever, but we can help hold communities that’s really exciting, you know, or that you can help all of those people in the community know that they’re in a community i mean, i think that’s the really exciting power of the internet is that people thought i’m the only person that has x y and z here and the only person it’s experienced this, and now they go online like, oh my gosh, i’m not special at all there’s a million. People who’ve had this and so part of it is that that feeling of like, i’m not special, but i’m not special because there are so many of these other special people you know, and getting to find them and create community with each other, even when you can’t all be physically in the same room. Her latest book is social change anytime everywhere you’ll find amy’s blawg at amy, sample ward, dot or ge once again a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Be sure and thank him for calling it. I will. That’s, dad, dad to you? Yes, next week i know it won’t be fermentation if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. Wee bey e spelling dot com a creative, producers clad meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez and this music is by scott stein he with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for August 24, 2012: Campaign Volunteers & Fiscal Sponsorships

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Listen live or archive:

Tony’s Guests:

Rich Foss
Rich Foss: Campaign Volunteers

Rich Foss, author of Greenlight Fundraising, on the importance of volunteer leadership in your campaign. How to recruit your chair and lead donor; the other volunteers you need in place; and what their jobs are. He has job descriptions and other resources that will go up on LinkedIn and Facebook.

 

Gene Takagi & Emily Chan
Gene Takagi & Emily Chan: Fiscal Sponsorships

Our regular legal contributors, Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO), make sense of this complicated relationship. What it is; why your office might become a sponsor and what that looks like; how to get started.

 


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I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.

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Hello and welcome to the show, it’s tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, how i hope you were that you were with me last week. That’s all i just hope you were here. We had grow grassroots michael o’brien, founder and principal of mob advocacy. He knows how to bring people to your cause with grassroots advocacy. How do you activate people? What are grass tops? We talked about that and how do you engage those people? Where do you go to meet potential coalition partners and what’s the added value for your work around grassroots advocacy and divine devices, desktops, laptops, tablets and handhelds? Scott koegler had tips for picking the right device to fit your budget, your work style and personality. You know him? He’s, the editor of non-profit technology news and our monthly tech contributor. Of course, this week, campaign volunteers rich foss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising we, he and i are going to talk about the importance of volunteer leadership in your campaign, how to recruit your chair and lead donor and the other volunteers you need in place and what their jobs are and has lots of descriptions and other resources that will go up on linkedin and facebook after the show today and fiscal sponsorships. Our legal team jean takagi and emily chan from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group make sense of this complicated relationship. What it is, why your office might become a sponsor or sponsoring and what that looks like and how to get started between the guests on tony’s take two big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent you’ve heard that already. Today my block this week is to encourage you to listen to the show and since that’s a paradox, i’ll have some other things to talk about other ways to connect on tony’s take two here’s the first one, of course hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter right now, we take a break, and when we return it’s campaign volunteers on rich fost will join me. I hope you stay here co-branding think dick tooting getting dink dink, dink dink, you’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Thank you. You could join the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city in pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve, save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot or or a nj dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna welcome back, live listener love going out new bern, north carolina? Oh, how i miss north carolina haven’t been there for a few months, but i will be there soon september welcome new bern and we’ve got more live listener love as the show goes on right now, my guest is rich fuss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising your sustainable fund-raising guide to raising fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars a year to light up the eyes of people you serve and your donor’s hope the book is shorter than its title. Rich he’s been in fund-raising over twenty nine years as both staff and a consultant he’s with me from rural illinois, where he’s, the leader of a mennonite community rich fast welcome to the show. Thank you, tony. I’m really glad to be here today. It’s my pleasure to have you, uh, we’re talking about campaign volunteers. What what’s the role of volunteers in a campaign about in my career, i worked with community non-profits and usually there’s only one or two development staff, and so i really wanted to develop a system that could be a multiplier for for staff and also that could really use the gold standard of fund-raising, which is, is. You raise a lot more money when you sit down face to face with somebody and describe the organization and ask them for a gift. Face-to-face and so, basically, i developed this system where you recruit volunteers and have them sit down with face-to-face with people and ask forgiveness for your non-profit and, uh, uh, not promise that have developed our have a doubt that it it’s been very special for them. Now we have a drug in jail on tony martignetti non-profit radio, and i hate to do it to you in this very first segment. But you said volunteers are our multipliers for for the charity? What? Why do you what does that mean? Basically, what it means is that that a development director, even if they go out and ask forgiveness, face-to-face, uh, can only meet with so many people each week or each year, and if you have aa group of passionate volunteers, uh, bacon meet with her a lot more people in a much shorter period of time and, uh, that’s why i call it a multiplier, okay, so early parole from jog in jail, but what your step you don’t you don’t want a second offense while you’re on parole. The let’s see, i’ve heard that it’s really? I mean, volunteers and i’ve had guests say this volunteers are the leaders of the campaign. Is that do you? Do you believe that over rather than the staff of the charity? Uh, definitely definitely. And that’s why? In setting up the system, the very first step is to recruit the campaign chair person who you want to have a very influential person in your community be the campaign chair person because their leadership will influence a lot of other people to, uh, to join your campaign. And so that that leadership role is extremely important. Okay? And we’re gonna have some time to talk about how to recruit that campaign chair is as well as some other volunteers, but what’s the role of the charity’s staff in all this. Then if the if the campaign is being led by volunteers, well, basically, i describe it. The role of the the, uh, campaign staff is particularly development staff. He used to run the system. Sometimes i like in these campaigns like an ipad. The ipad spring is very simple. And yet behind it, there’s a whole lot of details. Well, what you want to do in these campaigns is to create the systems and the details in such a way that it’s very easy for the the er staff are executing the volunteers to do their work, and so that requires a lot of work, a lot of organizational detail, a lot of of of work on the part of the development. Okay, now you’ve been doing this for nearly thirty years, so you can’t always have been like getting this toe ipad. What you used to look like in tow the old pong game or what? What did you used to liking it, too? Twenty nine years ago. Oh, okay, well, i didn’t have any metaphors until i was the brother typewriter. When you push the half space key. What i love just love about those type, you know? You know there’s? No, they didn’t used to be an exclamation mark on typewriters. I’m sure you remember that, right? Right. Had you had to do a period and then a back space and then a apostrophe to get an exclamation mark and that’s my theories. Why they’re overused now because there is an exclamation keith but that’s a little bit of a digression. I suppose. We have just a couple minutes before we take a break let’s from so so the so the staff is doing the systems. I mean, they’re they’re basically they’re supporting the volunteer leadership then is that is that? I have that right. Okay, okay. Now, before we could do the campaign chair, your advice is that there be a pre campaign committee. I don’t want to spend too much time on that, but just like a minute and a half before a break, tell us about the pre campaign committee, okay? Basically, you know, a lot of community non-profits their boards don’t get formed based on fund-raising. And so when i developed the system, i decided that we needed to have a group that was focused right on fund-raising and so generally what you do in the pre campaign committee, you get together, the executive director, maybe past boardmember the current board members, people who are influential, the most influential people in your community that are connected to your organization form that that, uh, campaign committee, because basically it takes influential people to recruit influential people, and so that prepaid campaign campaign committee gets together and identifies, okay, who are? The the top five people that could serve that in our community, that could serve in that role of campaign chairperson. Of course, if you put it, if you put dick cheney on your pre campaign committee, then he’s going to want to be campaign chair. Well, if you’re lucky, there might be somebody on your on your your pre campaign committee who could serve his chair. But especially in the first year, you want to go after the absolutely best person in your community, because that’s going to make your campaign sustainable because you want to do this every year, okay, which way a person. First, it works much better the next year. Okay, we’re going to take a break. We’ll come back and talk more about the campaign pre-tax paint committee leading into the campaign chair. Stay with us, talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. 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Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back. We’ve got more live listener love going out to massachusetts, spencer, massachusetts and no handup massachusetts, welcome to the broadcast with rich foster. We’re talking about fiscal sorry we’re talking about campaign volunteers, which fast, you probably want to talk about fiscal sponsorship, do you? I don’t care. You have expertise. Yeah, i don’t even particularly. I’m not looking forward to it, but we are going to want to talk about campaign volunteers on dh were in our pre campaign committee. So the this group of community leaders is assembled to to choose the people who would be good prospects for the campaign chair. Correct. Okay. And you did say if the pre campaign committee should include the the executive director of the charity? Correct. All right. Is that really the only should that be the only staff person employee of the charity? You’re often the development director will also be a part of it. Okay? And then other people who are prominent in the campaign co-branded community in there, in the community. Okay, so what’s their what’s, their process this as they as they narrowed down the prospects that they move toward asking somebody, uh, basically what? They do is the first thing they do is identify probably five people, possible people and then rank them. And basically, i suggest this because, uh, i learned from my mistakes the very first campaign that i was involved with. We we identified the next best person asked that person and they said no, and that happened four times. Yeah, so that’s. A lot of disappointment for a committee of mostly volunteers. That’s, right, that’s, right. Very disconcerting and out. The fifth person said yes and ended up to be a very a very good campaign chair person. So what was the lesson lesson from that? Yes, i learned from that identified five people right away. Rank them and that way, if you if somebody says no, you don’t have to push the panic button. Okay, your committee of volunteers is not disillusioned. That’s, right? They got others to go to. Ok, it’s right on. You have some pretty specific advice about about this process and even the meeting with with the candidates. Yeah, yeah. The the recruiting of volunteers is really, really serious business tonight i have a son who played division one basketball in fact, colgate university and so i got to see first hand the basketball recruiting process, and one of those guys are highly organized, and the same charities have to do the same thing. I have to plan things out very carefully and basically, you have to identify, okay, who’s going to on this pre campaigning committee, who’s the best person to invite the person to a breakfast or lunch where they can be approach who’s the best person to ask them to be the campaign chairperson and in the there’s, a lot of details that you and i have planned out, and you’re doing this for each of your five candidates. Yes, well, you do it for the first one and and then, you know, if you have to go to the second one, you do it, but all planned. I mean, do you even recommend people sort of role, role playing or any kind of mock mock meetings? Teo, talk about you’re going to say this and she’s going to say that, etcetera, i don’t know if you need to do the role playing, but you need to identify who was going to say what you know, so that that, uh, like the reason you involve the executive director is you need to have someone who could describe the non-profit and also who can tell a powerful story about the work of a non-profit and, uh, so you basically need to figure out the roles before you before you set up the meeting, okay? Okay. And at what point should you share the the sort of job description of the campaign chair with the with the prospect? Well, i, uh i would do it verbally during during the meeting and then, uh, attended the meeting just give them the job description, ok? You don’t want to read it during them during the meeting, but you want them to have something to refer to when they’re when they’re considering it. Rich has a model job description for the campaign chair and lots of other helpful resource is we’re going to mention a couple of them, but you’ll find, ah, whole list of them around this topic of campaign volunteers on my on linked in group for the show and also on the show’s facebook page after after the show, those will be posted and rich, who lets see who i should be the person to actually make the ask at the meeting is that should not be the person who’s the the closest to them. Or should it be the executive director? Or how do you decide who actually says we invite you to be our campaign chair? You basically need to ask who is the most influential person in terms of who’s who provoc perspective, campaign chair, person who’s? Who are they most likely say yes to ok. And that’s also the campaign pre campaign committee simply asked that question and hash is without among them and that’s, the person you asked, okay? And around a giving a gift expectation for the campaign chair. Certainly the person’s going to need a campaign they have to give. Correct. What do you like to see in terms of asking what? Telling them what they’re what the charities expectation is around that in an ideal world, they would give the elite gift. Uh, but way lived in an ideal world. You’d be on a much better. Show them this way. So we know that that’s out. Okay, i would be much more fluid. Uh, so you more support thing is influence not with e-giving ability of course you want them to give you want. You prefer to get them to give a major gift they clearly have to give, but they may not be able to give at the league gift level. Okay, uh, but their primary role is to be the chief influence in the campaign. So if they’re involved, you want everyone to say, wow, this is this is an important bilich event or important campaign in our community because this person i see ok, and also they become the person that it’s hard for other people to say no to write that’s, right? Because right, because they’re going to be responsible for recruiting other volunteers and asking people for gift. So say little about that, okay, the, um the campaign chair person will be responsible for recruiting the division chairs and that’s going to vary from community community, uh, in a larger city, you might do it by, you know, geography or, you know, a suburb or by industry that’s sort of part of the planning process. But whatever divisions you come up with, there needs to be a chairperson for that debate division. And, uh, you want your campaign chair person to recruit, recruit them. Okay, right. And you want to make that somebody that it’s hard to say no to that, right? Okay, so let’s spend a little time. By the way, just listeners were talking to rich boss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising we’re talking about the use of volunteers in your campaign rich why don’t you tell people where they can find your book? Green light fund-raising that or okay, green light fund-raising dot org’s let’s talk now, since you’re starting to lead us there. But you’re not taking over the show, which for some some guests get a little presumptuous. Take over the show. You’re not taking over the show. Appreciate it. I’ll follow your lead. You’re in trouble going off a cliff. Thie let’s talk you started brought into a bigger staff of volunteers. What should that? What? It’s? A little more. Besides the division heads. What should this broader volunteer kadre look like? Okay? One of one of the things that the development director needs to do is to develop a gift charges and the gift chart basically says what level of gifts need to be asked for and received in order to achieve. The goal, and then there are are once you have that, you can identify the number of volunteers you do, and i won’t go into all the process. But basically for every gift you need, you need three prospects. Right? Okay. And you want your volunteers to, uh, ask five people for gift. So this is hyre mathematics now. Okay, it’s. Just a matter of each volunteer. No, it’s hyre math for me anyway, so every volunteer as to ask five people that’s, right? Ok. That’s, right. And so well, you can figure based on your gift chart, you can figure out what you need to talk to so many prospects. And are you okay? Tio, meet your goal and you divide that by five. And then, you know, you’re a number of volunteers, okay? And that’s another one of the resource is that we have is that is not in the list of raving. Okay, there’s there’s a, uh an excel spreadsheet that has, ah, gift shark in it. And it also includes the breakdown of volunteers. Okay, excellent. And again, you’ll find those on the linked in group for the show and also the facebook page and then those air links back to teo richie site um, now we like to see volunteers recruiting their own teams isn’t isn’t that right? Yes, rather than having them posed by the staff that’s, right? It’s basically, because, you know, this is all volunteers doing it. They’re going to have to the leaders of the team leaders we’re gonna have to yeah, you know, do some gentle pushing to get things done, and they’re going to be able to do that much better with people that they know their friends. And so you want them, you want to strongly encourage them to recruit people that they know it, and, like and trust that the charity is putting a lot of faith and trust and like into it’s volunteers? I mean, there really are e-giving a lot of responsibility to this to this volunteer. Kadre yeah, yeah, and so, you know, one of the one of the the important roles, but particularly the development director does is is built strong relationships with the campaign leaders so that the campaign league leaders know that they’re going to have the support of the staff, and it really gives them confidence in their work and that kind of flows through the whole campaign. Okay, just the important point that this really is a ah delegation to the volunteers it is it is, yeah, yeah, and part of what happens is that, you know, i emphasized over and over again is you have to tell the stories of your non-profit because these dramatic stories of either wives transformed or also of, uh, the needs of non-profits mitnick is meeting really energizes the volunteers and gives them really meaning and purpose and what they’re doing way have a segment on the next show. My guest is rochelle shoretz and she’s going to talk a lot about storytelling in rain in the second half of next week’s show. Great, because i would really encourage people will listen to that or has, uh, stories are just absolutely essential when working with volunteers, which what is it that you love about? Fund-raising it seems, lives transformed, you know, the i’ve had so many people, you know, talk to me over the years and say things like, man, i can’t do that, you know, that’s begging for me, it’s not begging, you know, i tell people, you know, a panhandler bag. A fundraiser transforms lives. Yes. Give us a story. Give tell a little story about some some life that you’ve seen transformed our lives. Yeah, i was actually influenced in developing this model by doing a capital campaign. And, uh, when i did this capital campaign, i was working for an organization that provides services to people of developmental disabilities. And, um, there were about seventy people that we had living in a nursing home, and we wanted to shut that nursing home down and make it possible for them to live in a small group, homes. And there was one guy, particularly, uh, and, uh, i want to give his name, but i would talk to him. And any time this topic came about pizza, you know me. I like peace and quiet. And he was living in an extremely noisy nursing home, you know? And, uh, i remember we did this campaign. You know, it was a tremendous dahna taking for the organization never dahna campaign before raising one point, two million dollars dahna, uh, community of, you know, seven thousand people. And i went and visited him in his new home. And that was so moving you. Know to see him, you know, getting the peace and quiet and he’s long he probably living this nursing home for twenty years or so, you know, and see his life. How has changed? It was just amazing just by having a quiet environment very touching. Yeah, rich, we have just a minute left. I’m going to hold you to that. But can you tell us what? What lesson? What a lesson that we might all take from the mennonite community around fund-raising of the mineral rights. Uh, not only do fund-raising but they’re also very action oriented. One of their one of our services called mennonite disaster surface and so many knights from all over the u s will go to places where tornadoes go through hurricanes and they’ll clean up. No, they were down in in er not bad. Duitz of louisiana, new orleans, new orleans yeah, you know, helping clean green. And i remember hearing the stories of, you know, incredible work that they did buy the good friend who is on their way. I have to stop their rich shirt rich boss is joining us from rural illinois where he’s, the leader of a mennonite community. He’s, the author of green light, fund-raising, which you’ll find at green light fund-raising dot org’s rich. Thank you so much for being on. Yeah, thankyou. Tony, i really appreciate being here. It’s been my pleasure. Thank you. Now we take a break, and when we return it’s tony’s, take two little more live listener love and then gene and emily on fiscal sponsorships. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot order or a nj dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? 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I want you to know that i continue the conversation from the show in the linked in group last week, i had a follow up question for michael o’brien about civil disobedience, which we didn’t get a chance to talk to talk about in his conversation around grassroots organizing, and this week, as i mentioned, the templates and other resource is from rich foss will be in that linked in group. They’ll also be on the facebook page, so next time you’re on linked in, please check out our group and join also twitter no there’s me and the hashtag, and you can follow me on twitter the hashtag of courses non-profit radio if you want to know who the guests are going to be each week, i send email alerts every thursday on the facebook page. My voice just broke thursday like i’m twelve again, um and you can sign up for those email alerts. I just said that on the facebook page and then you’ll know in advance for the guests are maybe you don’t care. I understand you may just be subscribing and you don’t really care who’s going to be on because you know that the guests are all going to be smart and that the host is in question, but you can always count on good guest. Um, i also won four square. If you want to connect with me on four square, i’ll see where you are in the world and you can see where i hang out. Check me out on foursquare and that is the end of tony’s take two for friday, august twenty fourth, the thirty sixth show of the year we have jean takagi and emily chan gene is the principle of neo, the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco, he edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s g tak g ta k on twitter. Emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage she’s, principal contributor to the non-profit law blogged, and she is the american bar association’s two thousand twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer i don’t know why she’s still on the show. I’m sure she can have certain you could do better than this. Now that you have that appellation, you can follow emily chan on twitter she’s at emily chan, jean and emily welcome back. Hi, tony. Tony. Hello, emily. You’re still on that. You’re still coming on the show. Thank you for that. Everything about you for having me even if you got the prestigious award. Um, let’s. See, we’re talking about fiscal sponsorships. If there was ever if you ever needed evidence that the contributors choose the topics, this would be it fiscal sponsorships. A little little technical, but i’m willing to go into it. What is jean a fiscal sponsorship? Well, i’m gonna try to get a dog in jail. Yeah. Good luck. Were already there. Fiscal sponsorship let’s define this before out and its most common form. It’s. Really a way to start a non-profit project without creating a whole new nonprofit organizations. So basically, what happens? You’ve got a charitable project or an idea that you want to implement. You bring it to a charity willing to serve as the fiscal sponsor on who’s willing to operate that program within the organization so it becomes a negro part of that organization. And you reserve the right by contact. Be able to move the project to another physical sponsor if things don’t work out or you could even move it into your own nonprofit organization that you form once you know that the project is viable. That’s great. Thank you. Okay, you cut out a little bit. There is great incubator, i believe, is what you said, right? That’s okay, so we have the sponsor. Is it the sponsor? And the sponsoring? Is that how we should be referring to these two? Mostly referred to them as a sponsor and the proud sponsor and project. Okay, all right. We’ll keep our terms straight. Okay? And could gene could the could the project be another charity or that that’s? Not that’s, not how it works. Well, the like a smaller charity could be a smaller another charity don’t have to apply for tax exemption. Just actually running a program that you’ve introduced to another charity. And so you’re kind of head of that program. But the program is owned by the other to charity with the caveat that you, khun, take that program and bring it to another charity if the relationship sours in some way. Okay, okay, now, emily, i’m going to guess we would we would only want as a sponsor of our project. Oh, and established charity. Yes, picking the right physical sponsor is a huge part of getting the advantages of a physical sponsorship relationship, as jeanne mentioned. You know, they have a lot of control over the project. They take on a lot of responsibility generally with, like the admin and all the back office things, and they’re also managing the funds that would help fund your project that you definitely want to pick someone or excuse me of charity that has a good reputation in the community has some experience, possibly with physical sponsorship already. So they have the process is in place and one that aligned well with the mission. Otherwise you’re going to run into a certain problems. Sure. Well, and i would imagine a charity wouldn’t wouldn’t take you as a project if there wasn’t mission alignment, hopefully not. And that is a big part for the physical sponsor to be sure that they understand why. They’re taking on certain projects. Sometimes, you know, you’re so eager to want to help a charitable project that you do start to go outside of your own mission without, you know, taking care of your organization. Emerge. That’s risky. Mission creep. Mission creep. Okay, now what? Um what should a charity be looking? Oh, no, wait. I want to want to ask you, emily, you mentioned that the sponsor manages the money, so the money doesn’t belong to the project. It belongs to the sponsor. That’s correct. So entertainment in the typically a project that doesn’t already have tax exempt status, would it really make sense in that situation? So essentially, the physical sponsor is taking in money for the charitable purposes of the project, but that sinful sponsor, in order to not essentially acted like a conduit or to collapse and basically give money teo, non exempt entity. They have to have discretion and control over the funds. So there’s a certain level of oversight that the physical sponsors should be exercising with the project to make sure that it’s no operating properly, that the money being used the right way and that at every juncture, essentially when it does. You use the money to fund a project that is making that decision as opposed to just letting it pass through. Okay. And when you refer to the non exempt entity that’s, the that’s, the project. Right. Okay. Okay, let’s, stay with you, emily. So what’s the advantage for an existing charity cause our clients. Sorry. Our listeners are our charities mostly. And when you guys were first on the very first show that you two were on, we talked about alternatives to creating a new five. Oh, one c three charity. And we just barely touched on this subject. S o we have we have talked about altum other alternatives to creating a charity, but what’s the advantage to an established charity. Emily tbe a fiscal sponsor of projects for the fiscal sponsor it’s really about furthering that sponsored mission. So again, we talked about mission alignment. If you find projects that further, you know, the charitable purpose of your organization, not a huge benefit for the physical sponsor. Additionally, they do take generally a cut of the funds to take care of that back office stuff. I mean, they’re taken care of let’s. Say, you know payroll, you know, their insurance, maybe covering the project. All of these things take some money as well. It’s not really a money maker again. It really should be about furthering the mission. The charitable mission of the existing sponsor. But they do take some money generally in order to cover their cost. Ok. So now, gene, i assume we can just look to the internal revenue code and that will lay out these fiscal sponsorship responsibilities and relationships. Actually, no tony physical sponsor ship is not defined in any laws. I don’t think any state laws and definitely not in the internal revenue code so it’s all about the contract. So we want to make sure that you’re working with an established sponsor who can establish the right contacts to comply under the regular five a onesie, three rules. Holy cow. All right. So eyes. So there must be things that are supposed to be in these contracts. And again, were you know, our listeners are are the charities. So if somebody’s going to take this on this fiscal sponsorship because they do see mission alignment and the things that emily described? What what’s your advice around creating this? Contract if there’s there’s no statutes governing this relationship well, this may sound a little funny, but you’ve got to talk to the lawyers think this arrangement for the does that lawyer have to be the outstanding young lawyer of twenty twelve from the american bar association? You can’t go wrong with that, right? That’s what you absolutely cannot just outstanding and it’s in the title, so we know, but in case you don’t happen to have access to emily, although through the internet there’s no reason anybody shouldn’t be hiring emily, but you’re right, so you definitely this is definitely a legal relationship, and you need a lawyer drafting this contract, right? And to understand your responsibilities as a sponsor, there’s a great book out there from a no attorney colleague of ours, greg colvin called physical sponsorship six ways to do it right. And there’s, a organization called the national network of fiscal sponsors that publishes guidelines for fiscal sponsors and their best practices, including what they put into a physical sponsorship, agreements and policies. Those are definitely things that wanted checked out. Okay, and how does your friend, your colleague, spell his last name? Greg coben, ceo b i n okay. The guru of fiscal okay. Six ways to do it right. But there’s probably dozens of scores of ways to do it wrong. I’m sure in fact we actually put out a block both staying six days to do it wrong. So they definitely are. Did you? Okay, let sze not a copyright infringement. Wait, you do intellectual property work over there in the non-profit exempt organizations law group, not it out you don’t that’s. Very convenient. Okay, so it could very well be a copyright infringement. No, i’m sure it’s not a lawyer now. It’s fair. You some sure or something? I don’t know who does. Okay, so, emily let’s go into a little detail about structures around this sponsor project relationship and just we have about two minutes before first break. So what? What does it look like? Yeah, the structures, there’s models? Yes, there are. There are a handful model that actually comes out of that book that great colden. I wrote that gene mentioned the most popular one is the one that we we’ve been discussing. Model a also called the comprehensive or excuse me. Comprehensive physicals, sponsorship or direct project and it’s, when the charity basically houses the project, okay, in terms of all the management and the insurance and all that, all those things that you laid out, right, so it would be just like any other program it’s operating. Except for that caveat that is a relationship to find my contract. And there is a contemplation that the project may leave at some point. Ok, i don’t model a not a very clever name. I mean, i thought great could come up with something better than model a, but we’ll work with it. He’s the he’s, the guru. So we’ll work within his his, uh, sort of lacklustre. Um, his his, uh what i want to call this this is the, uh uh, i can’t think of the word i’ll think of it later. Okay, um and so all these things that you talked about before these all have to be in the contract, right? In terms of management responsibilities and insurance and oversight and all this it should be. And again, it just helps to lay out exactly what this relationship is going to look like because of the fact that it’s defined by the contract, i mean any pickles sponsorship could look a little different from another one. That is important to contemplate as much as possible at the outset as opposed to finding those problems. When you start trying to do this, ok. And the one that interested me, that gene mentioned a couple times is the right to leave the, uh, leave the, uh the the sponsor. Yeah. So that’s, very important for both the project on the sponsor to understand what terms and conditions might apply for that. So in some cases, maybe this sponsor is going to require that the project finds another five oh, one c three entity to house it. Maybe they’re willing, teo, do some other kind of due diligence to grant those funds that they held for those charitable purposes to the project. These are all things that you really want to think about beforehand. Ok, ok. Rubric. That was the word i was looking for. Model a is a rubric. This all falls under the rubric of model a i do. It was the board would come to me rubric. Of course, we’re going to take a break. And when we return, gene and emily stay with me. And we continue talking about fiscal sponsorships. That’s, another rubric. Com. 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Toa jean takagi and emily chan are regular legal contributors about fiscal sponsorship. I want to send live listener love out to little wet british columbia, canada, and i apologize if from mispronouncing it, if it’s in the way or something different than i just said it, i apologize. We got last week, we had ontario in ottawa, where’s, where’s, saskatchewan. Why is saskatchewan in manitoba? Never checked in alberta? Never checked in. We need to get these provinces listening live gene let’s, turn to you and see what else we might flush out about other models around fiscal sponsorship. So since we have the very rich model, eh, there must be a model b. There are the model ate a model at the rubric. Okay, rubrics, the lackluster rubrics. I’m sorry. I’m sorry for your colleague. I’ll stop calling them lackluster. So okay, what does model be matter or or his model? See better than be? Or how does this work? Well, model is by far the most common form. Okay? I was believed to be that in, like, eighty to ninety percent of the cases. The next biggest is model b, which is called a preapproved brandt relationship models this is you cut out a little bit there. This is model season charlie model using bravo baizman bravo is not as popular as sees charlie that’s. Right? So shouldn’t see bebe. It kind of flows from the structure of the i don’t know if we can recommend this book anymore. No obstacle. Ok, tell us about model charlie model charlie is the way that an existing non-profit that still doesn’t have tax exempt status, perhaps it’s a fight to the irs but hasn’t received determination yet. Khun starts to get fun now. The sponsor can act as an intermediary if you will receiving grants intended for the project, but foundations aren’t willing to. That project until it has its own five. Oh, one team status. So it gives it to the fiscal sponsor. The fiscal sponsor re granted to the project. But it has to use its own expression and control in order to make that re grant. The foundation’s put the onus on the fiscal sponsor to do all the due diligence. Okay, emily, how does this differ from model a alfa? I’m in a lot of ways, actually. So going back to model a it’s, the project is not its own entity. It’s really? Just a program, essentially that’s being operated by the fiscal sponsors. So all the employees, all the volunteers, all the liability, it’ll sit with the physical sponsor model. See, you have more separation. So he mentioned that its own entity now the project. Maybe. You know, it’s, just the taxable corporation. It might be in its period right now. Where? It’s, waiting for its five twenty three determination. So a lot of more of the liability from that program that it’s running a charitable project with the entity. The other entity, not the physical sponsor. Okay, so this is it. Shifting the responsibility is different. That’s how? It’s different than a okay, emily, what are some examples of fiscal sponsors like could could’ve come? It is a community foundation of fiscal sponsor or could it be? It could be they’re really as there is no riel limitation on who could be or what type of entity could be a physical sponsor. Generally speaking, you see it more calmly and just five a onesie three entities, because they’re able to get those contributions that can offer a tax deduction to individuals as well as bring in some private foundation grant. So you see it a lot with five eleven three entities, but as far as the mission of those entities or what it is that they’re doing this there’s no limitation on that, okay? And just we have just a minute left. Emily, where do we usually see this conversation begin? Does it does it start with the ceo of the of the sponsor thinking about bringing in projects or just started the board level where i think it actually starts with the project approaching on today’s out there that either have already decided to do it? But i think most commonly, it might start with the project. That is looking for a physical sponsor. Gene could shed somewhere like him and he actually sits on the board of community initiative, which is a physical. Okay, jean, we have just thirty seconds. Do you want to shed some light as emily cast it upon you? Sure, there’s a website called fiscal sponsored directory dot org’s, which is a good place to find a physical sponsor in your area or in your eyes. Area service. So that’s a good face to go to community foundations often engage in sponsorships and sometimes there sponsoring a project that our collaboration amongst many existing non-profit organization okay, we have to leave. I’m sorry, we have to leave it there. But that website again was fiscal sponsored directory dot org’s jean takagi. Principle of neo non-profit exempt organizations law group emily chan and attorney at neo-sage even emily, thank you very much. It’s. Always a pleasure will talk to you next month. And also, of course, want to thank rich fast for being on the show next week. We’re pre recorded because i’ll be on vacation in beautiful block island, rhode island next week. We’ll have. I had a great interview, but i didn’t get the job suzanne felder was with me at fund-raising day this past june. She’s, a consultant in outplacement for lee hecht harrison and she has advice around job search. Then, as i mentioned earlier storytelling with rochelle shoretz, founder and executive director of shark charette, they have built a culture of compassionate storytelling to help their members through their cancer diagnoses and treatments. Rochelle will have really valuable ideas on helping your charity create stories and who’s best to tell them, and she has her own touching story as a two time breast cancer survivor. Come, i want to shut out one more live listener love right here in the studio, indianapolis, indiana in the studio actually, carmel, indiana, to be exact live listener love in the studio, you know that i host a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy? Did you know that? Did you know i do it’s fund-raising fundamentals? That one is a ten minute monthly podcast and it’s on ly devoted to fund-raising topics i have a summer siri’s going on on grantspace eking the latest is building relationship with foundation program officers, and the first two were researching foundations and writing winning proposals. It’s called fund-raising fundamentals you’ll find on the chronicle of philanthropy website. You’ll also find it on itunes, continuing to wish you good luck. The way performers do around the world last week was chalk us, which means chicken in australia, in slang australian do you remember why they say chicken? You’re gonna have to go back and listen, i don’t have time to tell you today from spain monisha merida, a lot of ship, it comes from the success of a play. People would arrive at shows by carriage and what pulls a carriage, horses and what their horses leave behind shit. So the more of that you have, the better your show is. So i wish you much mierda for the week. Our creative producers claire meyerhoff, with this kind of content it’s hard to believe we have a creative producer, actually. But there is actually is one but she’s not responsible for these language lessons and this performing that comes from janice taylor. So i want to thank janice taylor. Sam liebowitz is today’s line producer shows social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Oh, how i hope you will be with me next week. One, two, two p, m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. Durney dahna. I think a good ending. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get anything. Cubine hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks. Been radio. 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