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Nonprofit Radio for December 20, 2021: Zombie Loyalists

My Guest:

Peter Shankman: Zombie Loyalists

Peter Shankman is a 5x best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker. His book “Zombie Loyalists” focuses on customer service; creating rabid fans who do your social media, marketing and PR for you. This is our annual rebroadcast of a show with very smart ideas for you to think about over the holidays. It originally aired 12/19/14.

 

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[00:00:04.14] spk_3:
Hello

[00:00:52.94] spk_2:
And welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of Brome Hydro sis if I had to walk through the idea that you missed this week’s show. Zombie Loyalists. Peter Shankman is a five time best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker. His book, Zombie Loyalists, focuses on customer service, creating rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. This is our annual rebroadcast of a show with very smart ideas

[00:00:57.71] spk_1:
for you to think about

[00:01:19.84] spk_2:
over the holidays. It originally aired December 19, Antonis, Take two Thank you for the year We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is a zombie loyalists.

[00:02:41.54] spk_1:
Peter Shankman is a well known and often quoted social media marketing and public relations strategist. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists. He wants you to create rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. He’s got super ideas and very valuable stories. I’m very glad Peter Shankman is with me in the studio. He is the founder of Haro. Help, a reporter out connecting journalists with sources in under two years from starting it in his apartment. Horror was sending out 1500 media queries a week to more than 200,000 sources worldwide. It was acquired by Vocus in 2010. He’s the founder and CEO of the Geek Factory, a boutique social media, marketing and PR strategy firm in New York City. Peter is on NASA’s civilian Advisory Council. You’ll find him at Shanklin dot com, and he’s at Peter Shankman on Twitter. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists, using great service to create rabid fans. I’m very glad his book brings him to nonprofit radio and the studio Welcome, Peter. Good to be here, honey. Thanks Pleasure. You, um, live on the West Side of Manhattan And you and you. There’s a there’s a pretty well known five star steakhouse. I’ll get Wolfgang’s not far from you,

[00:02:44.54] spk_0:
but you pass

[00:02:45.28] spk_1:
it to go to a different steakhouse. Correct? Morton’s correct. Why is that?

[00:04:33.94] spk_0:
I am a zombie loyalist to Morton’s. What does that mean? I, uh love the service, the attention to detail, the quality, the the sort of where everyone knows my name mentality. When I walk into that Morton’s or any Morton’s around the world, they have a tremendous, uh, customer relationship management system. When I call one number, uh, in New York or anywhere in the world, it they know who I am by my cell phone. And, uh, I’m treated with just, you know, phenomenal, uh, happiness to to hear from me and my wishes are granted as it were. I we have a happy hour holiday party coming up at Morton’s next couple of days. And, you know, as always, I forgot to call and make a reservation. And, you know, I called yesterday and said, Hey, I need a, uh, she has to get a reservation for seven people. Um, you know, Thursday night at seven p.m. Which is, you know, the week of the holiday party, and, uh, they looked and they said, Oh, well, and then I guess their computer system kicked in. Of course, Mr Shank, not a problem at all. We’ll get the frame and we you know we’ll have. We’ll have a great booth for you that, um, you know, and we’ll we’ll tell us the names of people attending and, you know, you know, you know, they’re gonna have specialized menus for them and their names on they Really, they have a really high level of service that they provide, not just to me. That’s the beauty of it. You know, it’s one thing, everybody. Yeah, it’s one thing that they just provided to me, but they do that for everyone. And that is huge because, you know, being able to call when a normal person makes reservation. And not that I’m special. I’m actually rather abnormal. But when a normal person makes a reservation and says, Uh, no, Martin says. Okay, great. Are you celebrating anything? So, yeah, it’s my wife’s birthday that’s always asked to anyone who calls. I said, Oh, you know what? It’s my wife’s birthday. Great. What’s her name? And her name is Megan. Whatever. And you go in and they and you sit down on the on the on the menu. It says, Happy birthday, Make it. And then Megan, whoever she happens to be, we’ll spend the next 45 minutes, you know, taking 50 selfies with her menu and and that will go online. And when her friends, you know, want that same experience, they’re going to go Morton’s,

[00:05:04.54] spk_1:
you say, uh, in in the book, you get the customers you want by being beyond awesome to the customers you have. And that’s why I wanted to start with that Morton story, which is in the middle of the book. But they do it for everybody, and then they have the V. I. P. S as well. And there’s the terrific story of you tweeting tell that story. That’s a good story. It’s

[00:07:24.54] spk_0:
a good story. I love stories. I was flying home from a day trip to Florida and was exhausted and starving, and they trip meeting you’re flying down and slow down at six a.m. At a lunch meeting, flew back the same day. You know, one of those one of those days, and I jokingly said, the tweet Hey, Morton’s, why don’t you meet me at Newark Airport when I land with a porterhouse in two hours? Ha ha ha ha ha. Um, you know, I said it the same way you’d say, Hey, winter, please stop snowing. Things like that and I landed. Uh, find my driver and sit next to my driver is a, uh is a waiter in a tuxedo with the Mortons bag. They saw my tweet. They put it together. They managed to bring me a, uh, a steak and, you know, as great of a story as it is, it’s that’s that’s it’s a great stunt and it’s a great story and it wasn’t stage, and it was completely amazing. But, you know, that’s not what they’re about. They’re not about delivering states airports. They’re about making a great meal for you and treating you like world when you come in. And you know, if they just did that, if they just delivered the state of the airport, but their quality and service sucked, you know, it wouldn’t be a story because, you know, you know what they did for Peter. But, you know, my steak is cold. So what it really comes down to is the fact they do treat everyone like kings. And that’s that’s really, really important, because what ends up happening, you have a great experience importance. And then you tell the world you know Oh, yeah, Great dinner last night. that was amazing. I would totally eat there again. And as we move to this new world where you know, review sites are going away and I don’t I don’t need to go to yelp reviews from people I don’t know. You know, if they’re shills or whatever the case may be, I don’t know. Or trip Advisor. Same thing. I want people in my network quite trust and and people in their network who they trust by default, I trust. So that’s gonna be that’s already happening automatically. You know, when I when I land in L. A and I type in steakhouse, uh, you know, not me. I know, I know where the steak house in l. A. But if someone types into Google Maps or Facebook Steak House in Los Angeles, you know they’ll see all the steak houses on Google map. But if any of their friends have been to any of them, they’ll see those first. And if they had a good experience, only if the sentiment is positive. Well, they see those first. And that’s pretty amazing, because if you think about that, the simple act of tweeting out of photo Oh, my God. thanks so much. Martin’s love this. That’s positive sentiment. The network knows that. And so if you’re looking for a steakhouse, you know, and your friend six months ago, I had that experience. Oh, my God. Amazing state. This is a great place. There’s a the sentiment’s gonna be there. And and And the network will know that network will show you that steakhouse because you trust your friend.

[00:07:25.84] spk_1:
And this is where we start to cultivate zombie loyalists. Exactly. Through this awesome customer service of the customers, you you have to say more about

[00:08:22.64] spk_0:
zombie. I mean, you have so many companies out there who are trying to get the next greatest customer. You know, you see all the ads, you know, the Facebook post. You know, We’re at 990 followers are 10 are 1000. Follower gets a free gift. Well, that’s kind of saying screw you to the original 990 followers who you had who were there since the beginning. We don’t care about you. We want that 1000 you know, that’s not cool. Um, the the the companies who see their numbers rise and you see their fans increase and their their, um um revenues go up are the ones who are nice to the customers they have. Hey, you know, customer 8 52. It was really nice of you to join us a couple months ago. How? You know, how are you? We noticed that you posted on something about a you know, your car broke down. Well, you know, we’re not in the car business, but, you know, your your two blocks from our our closest outlet or whatever. And you know, if you if you need to come in, have a cup of coffee when I use the phone, Whatever. You know, those little things that you can do that that that really focus on the customers you have and make the customers. You have the ones who are the zombies who tell other customers how great you

[00:08:35.54] spk_1:
are. And this all applies to non profits, certainly as well in

[00:09:12.94] spk_0:
the system. But even more so, I mean, if you you know, non profits are constantly worried about how to how to make the most value out of their dollar and how to keep the dollar stretching further and further, and you know you have this massive audience who has come to you, who is a non profit? Who said to You know, we want to help here we are volunteering our help and just simply treating them with the thanks that they deserve, not just as simple. Hey, thanks for joining us, but actually reaching out, asking what they want, asking how they like to get their information. Things like that will greatly increase your donations as well as, um, making them go out and tell everyone how awesome you are and letting them do your PR for you. And

[00:09:17.22] spk_1:
that’s what a zombie loyalist does. And this is for this. Could be donors could be volunteers organization who aren’t able to give a lot. But giving time is enormous.

[00:09:25.27] spk_0:
And if you know if they have such a great time doing it, they’ll bring friends

[00:09:29.84] spk_1:
as zombies.

[00:09:49.84] spk_0:
Do you know zombies have one purpose in life? A. Real zombies have one purpose in life that’s to feed. It doesn’t matter. How the Mets are doing it doesn’t matter, you know, because chance that they lost anyway. But it doesn’t matter how, how anyone is doing, you know, or what’s going on in the world and any kind of bad. It doesn’t matter what matters with zombies. Where are they gonna get their next meal? Because they feed and they have to infect more people. Otherwise they will die zombie loyalists to the same thing. All they have to do is make sure that their customer, they tell the world, and we all have that friend who does it. You know that one friend who eats nothing but the olive garden because oh my God’s greatest breadsticks everywhere, you know and they will drag your ask the olive garden every single time they get that chance. That’s a zombie loyalist,

[00:10:04.75] spk_1:
and you want them to do that for your nonprofit, and there’s a big advantage to being a smaller, smaller organization. You could be so much more high touch, and we’re gonna talk about all that. We got the full hour with Peter Shankman. Gotta go away for a couple of minutes, stay with us.

[00:10:35.54] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. You’re 2022 writing. Do you have time to do all the projects that you need to do? Like social posts and blog posts, newsletters and annual report Web updates board reports, fundraising appeals and acknowledgment messages. What about your staff Communications? What about your process? Documentation? What about training and on boarding documents?

[00:10:51.74] spk_1:
Do you need help with writing

[00:10:53.52] spk_2:
In 2022?

[00:10:55.64] spk_1:
I mean, you can talk to them about

[00:11:24.24] spk_2:
2023, but that seems premature. But if you need help in 2022, with all your projects talk to turn to, they can create the content for you. They’ll get to know your tone and your messaging. They’ll create in your voice, turn to communications. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to zombie loyalists.

[00:11:27.44] spk_1:
Peter, it doesn’t take much to stand out in the customer service world, does it?

[00:11:52.24] spk_0:
It really doesn’t, you know. And the reason for that is because we expect to be treated like crap. You know, if you think that I I I love this example. Whenever I give speeches, I asked, I asked everyone the audience I’m like who here has had a great flight recently, Like at least one person raised their hand. I’m like, Okay, what made it great and without fail. And I said, Well, we took off on time and I had the seat I was assigned and we landed on time. And so you paid for a service. They delivered that service and you’re over the freaking moon about it. Like that’s the state that we’ve become. You know, that’s how bad customer service has been that you are just beyond thrilled that they did exactly what they said they were gonna do it. Nothing more.

[00:12:05.51] spk_1:
Less than 20 minutes in the post office line.

[00:12:24.44] spk_0:
And I’m ecstatic Exactly. You know, it’s so we really are at a point where we only have to be one level above crap. I’m not even asking my client to be good. Just one level of crap. You know, if everyone else’s crap and you’re one level above that, you’re gonna win. It’s my favorite. One of my favorite jokes. Um, the two guys are out in the woods hunting in the woods and or just jogging and was the first one sees a bear and they see these bearings bears raised and he’s about to strike. And the first one reaches down and tightens up his laces on his running shoes and see what the studios don’t be. Don’t be. Don’t be an idiot. You can’t outrun a bear because I don’t need to. I just need to outrun you. You know, I love that joke because it’s it’s so true. That’s the concept. You know, all you have to do is be just a little bit better than everyone else and you’ll win the whole ballgame.

[00:12:50.14] spk_1:
Now we have to set some things up internally in order to have the structure in place to create these The zombie loyalists.

[00:16:14.14] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, you have a you have a company where the majority of people in your company are afraid to do anything outside the norm, you know? I mean, look at look at the cell phone company. You know, they call them cause you have a problem, right? 18 T or T mobile. You call them, you have a problem. They are actually the customer service people to handle your caller, actually judged and rewarded based on how quickly they can get you off the phone. You know, not on whether or not they fix your problem, but how fast they can get you off the phone. Which means how many more? Cause I remember I worked when I worked in America Online. We all had to do a day of customer service every month just to see what it was like. That was a brilliant idea. But, you know, again, it was a system called Vantive, where you’d sign on and as soon as you signed on, if you want to call, you know, that was tacked against you. And if you were in a call and and it went over a certain amount of time, that was tacked against you, So the decks were stacked Not in the favor of the customer. There are some companies out there who allow their customer service employees to simply be smarter about what they do and do whatever it is they need to do to fix the problem. Um, you know, my favorite story about this Verizon, uh, wireless. I went overseas as in Dubai, and I landed to buy and I turned on my phone. I had gotten global roaming on my phone, Which, you know, $20 for every 100 megabytes. Okay, so I land and I turn on my phone and it says, um, like before I’m even off the plane. I get a text that you’ve used $200 in roaming charges on what the hell you know, $300 by the time I get off the plane. Like something’s up here. So I called Verizon and a nice guy answer the phone and Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, the first thing that was Yes. So you do have global roaming, but it doesn’t work in Dubai, I’m like, Okay, well, that’s not really global. That’s more hemispherical. Roaming, I think is the issue. And so the, uh I said, Well, look, I’m gonna be here for a week. I said, you know what? You have my credit card on file build me like I don’t know. Can you give me, like, 1000 bucks and just let me have the phone for, like, the week? And you know, daddy, you know, 500 bucks, I won’t go over two gigs. Would just do something for me. Sorry, sir. I’m not authorized to do that. Um, you can. I’m like, So what do I have? He’s like, Well, you can pay $20.48 a megabyte. I’m like, I’m sorry. Seriously, which equates essentially two. I will be charged $20.48 seconds, $20 or 48 cents for every I think at the time was for every four seconds of the video Gangnam style, if I decided to watch on my phone Like this is pretty ridiculous. So I simply hung up, hung up on Verizon. I went down the street to do by the mall of the Emirates, which is the largest mall in the world, has a freaking ski slope in it. And I’m not joking. It has a ski slope in the small and, uh, went to one of the 86 different electronic stores in this mall. Uh, but an international unlocked version of the same exact cell phone I have went next door to the local SIM card store, bought a SIM card that gave me 20 gigabytes of data and 1000 minutes of talk for $40. I then put that in my phone because it’s an android phone. I simply typed in my user name and password for Google and everything imported, and Verizon did not get a penny on that trip. Um, how easy would have been for Verizon to say Okay, you know what? We’ll cut your brake uh, they still make a lot of money off me. And I would tell the world how great Verizon was to work with and how wonderful, how helpful they were. Instead, They guaranteed that I will never they will never make a penny for me on any international trip. And I take, what, 15 of them a year. Because now my cell phone, um, my international cell phone that I bought all I do is pop out the SIM card in my land. Wherever I am, put in a new SIM card. So

[00:16:14.85] spk_1:
and you’re speaking and writing and telling bad

[00:17:32.54] spk_0:
stories, Of course. And and every time I tell the story about Verizon, I make it a little worse. Apparently, Verizon, uh, tests out the durability of their phone by throwing them kittens. I read this on the Internet Must be true, but, you know, not necessarily. But you know, the concept that that all they had to do, all they had to do was in power mark customers. And it wasn’t Mark’s phone. Mark was a really nice guy, but he was not allowed to do that. He would get fired if he tried to do a deal like that for me. And so it’s this concept, you know. And the funny thing is, it comes down to if you really want to go down the road. In terms of a public company like Verizon of where the issue is, you can even trace it to fiduciary responsibility because the fiduciary responsibility of any company CEO all the way down to the employee is to make money for the shareholders. Okay, that’s the future. Responsibility means by not allowing me, they’re not allowing Mark, the customer service agent to to help me and take a different tack. He’s actually losing money. Too many CEOs think about the next quarter, so we have to make our numbers. Next quarter, I’m fired. Companies in other countries tend to think of the next quarter century, And they make a much bigger difference because they think, Okay, what can we do now that will have impact in the next 5, 10, 15 years, you know, and really implement the revenue that we have and and augment and companies Americans don’t think about that, and that’s a big problem. I

[00:17:39.24] spk_1:
buy a product line, uh, has a lot of natural and recycled materials its seventh generation and their, um, their tagline is that in in our every decision, we must consider the impact on the next seven generations. It comes from an American Indian.

[00:17:48.98] spk_0:
It’s a great it’s a great line. I mean, just think about how much money Verizon would have made for me in the past three years. Just just in my overseas, you’d be telling

[00:17:55.71] spk_1:
a story about like them about Martin’s like the one of Morton’s

[00:18:19.64] spk_0:
look, a lot of people listen to me and they for a time when you Googled roaming charges variety When you Google Verizon roaming charges. My story about how I saved all this money came up first because I did the math. And if I had not called Mark and bought my own self on and done this, I would have come home with $31,000 cell phone bill and your damn of what I’m gonna do anything about that would be like up Too bad. Sorry should read the fine print

[00:18:23.91] spk_1:
and plus the the employee who sold you the quote international

[00:18:27.56] spk_0:
plan, right?

[00:18:28.53] spk_1:
I’m sure you told her,

[00:18:29.93] spk_0:
she said, where we’re going, I’m going to Canada and I’m going to Dubai. I’m assuming she didn’t know where to buy, was she? Probably. It was near Canada, but, uh, yeah, Long story short, I couldn’t use it.

[00:18:40.14] spk_1:
All right. So employees have to be empowered. There has to be. We have to be changing a thinking too. I mean, the customer has to come first. The donor of the volunteer

[00:20:41.74] spk_0:
Don’t volunteer. You get at the end of the day, where is your money coming from? I don’t care if your nonprofit or Fortune 100, where’s the money coming from? You know, and if you we see it happening over and over again, we’re seeing what you’re seeing right now. Play out every single day with the company uber, um, and uber. It’s so funny because uber makes, uh, you know, they’re valued at $40 billion right now, but that doesn’t mean anything that doesn’t mean anything. If people are running away in droves, which people are, there’s a whole delete your uber app movement. People are God’s people are leaving. What’s the problem? Well, it’s several number one. That uber is run by a bunch of guys who honor the bro code. The company was actually started by a guy who, in on business in business insider, said he started the company to get laid. Um, his goal was to always have a black car When he was leaving a restaurant, uh, to impress the girl he was with that he came out and said that And you see that culture run rampant throughout uber, um, from their God mode, where they can see they actually created. It was, uh I don’t know where I read this business insider as well. It was They created a hookup page that showed or or or or walk of Shame Page that showed where, uh, women were leaving certain apartments like on weekends going, leaving certain place on weekends, going back to their home. Um, it was obvious that they, you know, met some guy like they did that. And then, of course, just their whole surge pricing mentality, which is, you know, two days ago there was a couple days ago. It was a the terrorists of the figures, a terrorist attack in Sydney at that at that bakery and Sydney, uh, uber and Sydney instituted surge pricing for people trying to get out of harm’s way. You know, and and they later refund it. Always a computer glitch. You know, I’m sorry. You have a stop button. And you can when you see something happening like that, this has to be someone in the office, because you know what? Not cool. We’re going to take care of that and and hit the stop button. And it was Yeah, bad tons and tons and tons of bad publicity. You know, I was having an argument with one of my facebook page facebook dot com slash peter Shankman Because they said, Oh, you know, um, so what? They don’t they don’t turn on surge pricing, don’t have enough cabs there, and, you know, people can’t get home. I said I’m pretty sure that the only I’m sure that no one had cab companies there. I’m sure that there wasn’t anyone who had enough cars, their private cabs, ubers, whatever. Yet the only stories I read about companies screwing up during the event where uber not Joe’s Sydney cab company. You know, I didn’t see him screwing up because he didn’t turn on surge pricing. You gotta You gotta respect your customer. You have to,

[00:21:07.34] spk_1:
As we’re training for that then not only, uh, trying to change their mind shift. Well, in in trying to change that mindset rewards for for customers, for employees that do go, do go the

[00:22:11.74] spk_0:
extra mile. Well, first of all, if you give the employees the ability to do it to go the extra mile and I understand they won’t get fired, you’re not gonna get into. I always tell every one of my employees you’re never gonna get in trouble for spending a little extra money to try and keep a customer happy. You’ll get fired for not doing it. You know, you get fired for, not for seeing an opportunity to fix someone and not taking not doing everything that you could. You know? Ritz Carlton is famous for that. Ritz Carlton hires people not because whether they can fold a bedsheet but for how well they understand people. Because in Rich Collins mind, it’s much more important to be A people person and be able to be empathetic. And that is such a key word. Empathy is just so sorely lacking. You know how many have called customer service? Yeah, you know, I have to have to change my flight. My my my aunt just died. I really need to 100. Okay, great. That’s $300. I just want to go an hour earlier. You know, you show up at the airport, your bag is overweight by half a pound. $75. I just Can you Can you just cut me some slack? Nope. So empathy and giving the custom, giving the employee the ability to understand that the customer that sometimes you can make exceptions and it is okay to make changes.

[00:22:18.91] spk_1:
And this is where a smaller organization has huge

[00:22:33.84] spk_0:
advantage. It’s easier to change. That’s what kills me. You know, I go to these. I try to frequent small businesses when I can I go to some of these small businesses and they won’t they act like large businesses, you know, in the respect that they don’t have a like they

[00:22:35.45] spk_1:
want to be respected. Almost. They

[00:23:14.14] spk_0:
Don’t have, like, a 66,000 page code that they have to adhere to. They can simply, uh, do something on the fly. And yet, for whatever reason, they won’t do it. And and it’s the most frustrating things. Like guys, you’re acting like a big you’re acting like Mega Lo Mart here, you know, And you’re not Mega Lo Mart, and you’re just Joe’s house of stationary, whatever it is and you know, Not be able to help me. You’re pretty much killing yourself because you don’t have 85 billion customers that come through the door after me, you know? But I have a pretty big network, and for small business to get killed socially, as social becomes more and more how we communicate, you know, it’s just craziness.

[00:23:23.64] spk_1:
It’s, you know, we’re pretty much in the world. I think we’re something almost hasn’t happened to you unless unless you share it.

[00:25:44.34] spk_0:
I joked that, you know, if I can take a selfie. Was I really there? Um but it’s true, you know, we we do live in a world where, you know, I remember God 10 years ago. Maybe not even not even 10 years ago. I was one of the first people to have a phone in my camera you know, and it was like drinking from that’s what I said. Yeah, I can’t find my phone right. And it was like a I think it’s a 0.8 megapixel, you know, it looked like I was taking a picture with a potato. But it was, um it was this. I remember it was 2000 and two, and I was in Chase Bank and there was a woman arguing with the teller, and I pulled out my video. You know, it was it was the crappiest video you’ve ever seen. But I pulled it out and I said, You know, uh, I started recording, and the woman behind the woman behind the counter was the woman behind the counter was talking to the customers, saying, You do not speak to me that way. You get out of this bank right now and the customers saying, I just wanted my balance, and you and the manager comes over and get this whole thing on my little crappy three g Motorola phone phone. And I remember I posted online, and Gawker picks it up. I gave my email. You know, my headline I put on my blog was, you know, chase where the relationship is that Go after yourself, you know? And it was It just got tons of play. And then Gawker picked it up. It went everywhere. Totally viral. So it’s one of those things here, just like, you know, this was in 2000 and two. It’s 12 years later. How the hell can you assume that nothing is being that you’re not being recorded? You know, I I remember blowing I sneezed a couple weeks ago and, uh ah, not to get too graphic here, but I needed a tissue big time after I was done, anything. I remember going through my pockets looking for desperate, looking for tissue and looking around making sure I wasn’t on camera somewhere that someone didn’t grab that. Give me the next viral sensation, you know? I mean, I went God, I went to high school with eight blocks from here, right? If the amount of cameras that are in Lincoln Center today Were there in 1919, 90 be having this conversation entirely, I’d be having this conversation behind bulletproof himself. And, um, yeah, so you know, you’d be you’d be talking to You have to get special clearance to visit me, probably at the Supermax in Colorado. So, you know, it’s it’s one of those things that you’re just like my kid, who’s who’s almost two years old now is going to grow up with absolutely no expectation of privacy the same way that we grew up with an expectation of privacy. And I’m thankful for that because she will make a lot less stupid moves. You know? I mean, God, the things that I thought, you know, in, in, in, in high school I thought the stupidest in the world. Thank God there wasn’t a way for me to broadcast that to the world in real time. Jeez, thank God

[00:25:59.64] spk_1:
creating these zombie loyalists. And we’ve got to change some. We’ve got to change culture and thinking and reward systems. Let’s go back to the cost of all this. Why is this a better investment than trying to just focus on new donors?

[00:27:20.74] spk_0:
I love I love this analogy and I’ll give you a fun analogy. Let’s look at a bar and there’s a very cute girl across the across the park and she catches my eye catcher. I go up to her go. You know you don’t know me. I am amazing in bed. You should finish your drink right now. Come home. Let’s get it on. I’m gonna impress. I’m that good chance that she’s gonna throw a drink in my face. Go back talking to her friends. I’ve done a lot of research on this. That’s probably understand. Now let’s assume let’s assume an alternate world. I’m sitting there on my phone. I’m just playing like, you know, some words with friends like that. And, uh, she’s over there talking to her friends, one of her friends. Holy crap. That’s Peter. I think that’s Peter Shankman. I’ve heard him speak. He’s in this fantasy world. I’m single, too. He’s I think he’s single and he’s having this amazing guy. I know he has a cat you have. You should totally go talk to him. At the very least, I’m getting this girl’s number. That’s PR. Okay. And what do we trust? More me with my, you know, fancy suit collar Going over the seventies, leaders did. Hi, I’m amazing. Or the girl saying, Hey, we’ve been friends since third grade. I’m recommending that guy. You should trust me on this, You know, obviously that that’s where, uh, good customer service comes into play. And that’s where corporate culture comes into play. Because if I have a great experience with you and at your company, I’m going to tell my friend when they’re looking and I will stake my personal reputation on it. And there’s nothing stronger than that.

[00:27:26.19] spk_1:
And these are the people who want to breed

[00:27:27.55] spk_0:
as it’s stronger than advertising stronger the marketing

[00:27:30.74] spk_1:
and they’re gonna share. People

[00:27:55.94] spk_0:
want to share that. I think about the Internet runs on two things. It runs on drama, drama and bragging or bragging and drama. And if you if you need any proof of that, you know, go and look at all the hashtags with crap that’s happened, you know, bad customer service, bad, whatever. But then look at all the good Hashtags. You know, when our flight’s delayed for three hours and we lose our seat. Oh my God, I hate this airline. Worst airline ever. But when we get upgraded right hashtag first class bitches or whatever it is, you know something stupid like that and the whole because we love to share. It’s only a great experience if we can tell the world, and it’s only a bad experience if we can make everyone else miserable about it as well.

[00:28:54.94] spk_2:
It’s time for Tony’s take two Thank you for the year. It’s been another the second in a row up and down years. But you can count on nonprofit radio, and I know I can count on you are consistent, loyal podcast listeners year after year or some of you. Some of you knew this year. Welcome. Whether you knew this year whether you’ve been with us for a long time. I mean, this is show # 570. So, have you been with us 570 shows? Um, that’s a long time that I’ve been here. I’ve been here 570, however long. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. Yeah. And up and down year yet again. But, you know, you can count on nonprofit radio,

[00:29:00.74] spk_1:
and I know I can count on you.

[00:29:31.84] spk_2:
That’s the That’s the bargain. So thank you. Thanks for the year. We’re gonna be off next week and then and then back in early January. Thanks very much. So glad to have you with me. That is, tony. Stick to We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for the classic zombie loyalists.

[00:29:41.34] spk_1:
Peter, you have a golden rule of social media that that a good number of customers like to share and people are going to keep doing it.

[00:31:15.14] spk_0:
People will always share again. It goes back to the concept that if you create great stuff, people want to share it because people like to be associated with good things. If you create bad stuff and buy stuff, I can meet, I mean anything from a bad experience. Too bad content. People not only won’t share that, but we go out of their way to tell people how terrible you are. Um, you know, how many times have you seen companies fail horribly? Uh, you know, after major disasters when companies are tweeting, um, you know, completely unrelated things after after a random school shooting? Uh, no. It was after the shooting at the theater in Aurora, Colorado at the Dark Knight. Um, the NRA tweets. Hey, shooters, what’s your plans for this weekend? You know, and I’m just going, really, you know, but And of course, the thing was, the thing was retweeted millions of times, you know, with the sort of shame on the NRA. So we we’re a society. Like I said earlier, that loves to share when when great things happen to us, but loves to tell the world when we’re miserable, because we’re only truly miserable. We make everyone else miserable right now, Um, it’s funny you mentioned, uh, generosity series, Uh, the one of my favorite stories, which goes to sort of a bigger picture of culture. And, um, somehow when you’re just doing your job because that’s what you’re supposed to do your job. But you don’t realize there are ways to get around that. I I listened to your podcast, among others, when I’m running through Central Park, Um, and more like, if you know, my body type more like lumbering through Central Park. But I get there. I’m an iron man. I have, I have that. And so I go through Central Park and it’s super early in the morning cause I usually have meetings and I don’t run fast. Um, I run like I really don’t run fast, but But as I’m running, But

[00:31:24.23] spk_1:
let’s give you the credit. You have done a bunch of iron man. I have try.

[00:33:28.64] spk_0:
I do. I do it, you know, my mother tells me that I just have very poor judgment in terms of what sports I should do. But, um, on the flip side. I’m also a skydiver, which is with my weight is awesome. Yeah, I fall better than anyone. Um but so I’m running through central park. Last year it was February, February of of 13 and 14 of this year and it was probably about 4. 45 in the morning because I had a an eight. AM meeting. I had to do 10 miles. So 45 in the morning, I’m running about but around 19, 79th, 80th Street on the east side, in the park and a cop pulls me over and I said, What are you doing? I look at him, you know, I’m wearing black spandex. I have a hat. It’s five degrees. I don’t like what I’m playing checkers, you know? But, you know, I’m like, I’m running and he’s like, Okay, can you stop running? I’m like, Okay, because they give the park’s closed like, No, it’s not like I’m in it. Look around. There are other people who know part does nobody else exam. I’m like, he’s like, Do you have any idea on you? I’m like, No, I’m running. He goes, What’s your name? I’m like, seriously, like I’m writing you a summons. I’m like you’re writing me a summons for exercising. I just want to clarify that you’re writing music, and sure enough, I wrote me a summons for exercising in Central Park before it opened. The charge was breaking the violating curfew. You know, I’m like I get the concept of the curfew is to keep people out after two a.m. It’s not to prevent them going in early to exercise, to be healthy. I’m like, I’m not carrying, you know, a six pack. I’m not drinking a big gulp. I’m not smoking. I’m you know, I’m doing something healthy, and you’re writing me a summons for it. Um, and I said, you know, I’m gonna have a field day with this. I said I I kind of have some fathers. There’s gonna be a lot of fun. I’m not, You know, I know you’re just doing your job, sir, even though you have the discretion not to, but Okay, so I go back home, take a picture of my ticket, I email it to a friend of mine in New York Post. You know, front page, New York Post. Next day. No running from this ticket. You know for that. Great New York Times covered it. Runner’s world covered. I mean, I went everywhere. Gawker covered it, you know? And And my whole thing was just like, Dude, you have to scratch. Look at me. You know, I’m not I’m not even going super fast, for God’s sake. I’m just I’m just trying to exercise here, you know? And of course, I went to court, and I beat it. But how much money they cost the city for me to go to court, fight this thing? You know, every employee you have to give your employees the power of discretion. The power of empathy to make their own decisions. If you go by the book, bad things will happen.

[00:33:36.14] spk_1:
And again, small shops. So much easier to do. Flat line, flat organizations.

[00:35:10.94] spk_0:
I work with a non profit um, animal rescue nonprofit. Um, a friend of mine was a skydiver and shot him out. No, I can’t, but but there’s a friend of mine was a skydiver, and she was killed in a base jump several years ago. And her husband asked to donate in her memory to this non profit. So I said, I’m a check and about three months later, I get a coffee table book in the mail. And I was living by myself at the time. I didn’t own a coffee table. It was more money to spend on my flat screen. And I remember I call I look at this coffee table book. I throw it, I throw in the corner. I look at it over the next couple of days and pisces me off. And how much How much of my donation did it cost to print? Well, and produce this book to me, And so I called them up. Well, sir, we believe most of our donors are older and probably refer to get a print version as opposed to, like digital. You know where they throw it away and like, you don’t throw digitally, but okay, um, I’m like So So you’ve asked your you’ve done surveys and you’ve asked, you know, we just assume that most of them are older. I’m like, Okay, So I opened my mouth, wound up joining the board, and I spent the next year interviewing customers, interviewing every current and past donor about how they like to get their information and shock of shocks, 94% said online. And so over the following year, we launched Facebook page, Twitter page, uh, Flickr account, YouTube, everything. Ps the following. After that, donations went up 37% in one year In that economy is right around 809. Donations went up 37% in one year, and they saved over $500,000 in printing, mailing and reproduction. Imagine going to your boss. Hey, boss. Revenues up 37%. And we saved a half million dollars. You’re gonna buy a really good beer. You know, all they had to do was listen to their audience, be relevant to the audience you have, and they will tell you what they want. We have tons

[00:35:17.89] spk_1:
of tools for segmentation. My God, you’ve got to listen to what segment that you want to. People want to

[00:37:33.83] spk_0:
be in. You know, someone? Someone asked me that they show what? What’s the best? I knew nothing about the company. What’s the best, uh, social media outlet for me to be on? Should be on Twitter should be on Facebook. I said, I’ll answer that question. If you can answer this this this question to ask you is my favorite type of cheese Gouda or the number six? Yeah, they say, I understand that’s not a real question like neither is yours. Like I can’t tell you where the best place to be your audience can. I said, Go ask your audience. Believe me, they will tell you there’s a gas station in the Midwest. Come and go. Um, I just love the name K U M and G O come and go and they’re tackling the book you can read more about. Their tagline is always something extra. I mean, come on, the jokes just write themselves, for God’s sake. But they don’t take themselves too safe. Really love that Come And just knowing the name of the company gas station. And, um, you know, I remember there in Iowa and I went to visit a friend in Iowa and I was like, You got to get a photo of me in front of come and go inside. And the beauty of this is that some of their employees actually look at their customers when they’re on their phones and the stories go. You know what do use Twitter or Facebook? And they say Oh, yeah, And they record that information and they know it. God, customers will give you so much info if you just ask them, because then they feel invested. They feel invested in your company. They feel like they that you took the time to listen to their nonprofit request for their their their questions. And they feel like they did for Harrow. Every month we have a one question Harrow survey, you know, harrowing question survey. And it was like 1000 people respond, and I spent the entire weekend emailing Everyone responded, thanking them personally took my entire weekend. But it was great, because what wound up happening is that, you know, if we took their advice and launched on Monday with the new thing, they go, Oh, my God. Howard did this. They took my advice. Well, yeah, it was your advice to 800 other people’s advice, but we took it and they’d be like, Oh, my God, this is it. And it just it just made them so much more loyal. And they tell hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people we get I mean, there were days like there are days where I was in Temple one morning, the Garment Center synagogue and my phone. I feel my phone getting really hot in my pocket, which is not normal, and I’m starting to hurt and I look at it. It’s almost on fire. It had frozen because we were mentioned in Seth Godin’s morning blog, and at that time I was getting emails. Every time we get a new subscriber and the phone is actually frozen and was locked and and was like overheating, I take out the battery and reset the entire phone because we just got so many new like 14,000 subscribers in, like, three hours. It’s obscene. Obscene,

[00:37:35.25] spk_1:
you say. Excuse me? You say, uh, that customer service is the new advertising marketing NPR?

[00:40:23.41] spk_0:
Yeah, it really is well again. You know, if we’re moving into that world where so imagine a lava lamp and I love that. I can use this analogy. Imagine a lava lamp. Lava lamp has water, oil and heat source. Right heat source heats the oil. The oil flows through the water. It makes pretty colors. I’ve heard it looks really good when you’re high. Now I’ve heard now imagine if Crystal’s imagine if you are, uh, everyone you meet in your network, okay, is a drop of oil. The water is your network. And what is your world? Everyone you meet in your network from from the guy you’re sitting doing the radio interview with to the guy who serves you ice cream with local deli to the guy who does your dry cleaning to your girlfriend to your wife, too, at the same time to your kid’s second grade teacher to your second grade teacher years ago. Everyone you meet is in your network, you know, right now, when Facebook first started, I would see the same weight from a kid with junior high school with his posted at the same weight as like my current girlfriend, Which is ridiculous. I don’t need to know about everything my friend from junior high schools do. We have to talk to the kid. In 15 years, Facebook’s gotten a lot smarter as Google. Now I see the people I communicate with the most, okay, and if I if I reach out and communicate with new people, they start rising in my feet and my stream. If I don’t they fall. It’s just like a lava lamp. Every person you connect with is a drop of oil. The heat source at the bottom that’s rising. Raising or lowering those drops of oil is relevance. So if you imagine the heat sources relevance and the more I interact with someone, the more the higher they go in my network. And the more I see of them, the more trust level there is. When I’m at a bar and I meet someone at a restaurant or conference, I meet someone. I don’t need to, um, connect them. I don’t need to go on Facebook and friend requested, you know, awkward friend. Requesting is when you stop and think. The last time I friend requested some of the real world was second grade. Will you be my friend? My daughter is doing that because, you know, she goes into like, the cat. Will you be my friend like honey? The cat doesn’t wanna be here, but you know it’s this awkward thing. Who the hell friend request someone anymore? If I’m if I’m hanging out with you to bar and we connect again and we talk and we go out to dinner and we’re having a good time with friends. I don’t need to first request that you, you know, that’s going away Friending following liking and fanning is all going away. What will interact is the actual connection. So if I meet with you and I have a good time with you and we talk again if I use your business, if I go to your non profit, if I donate if I volunteer or whatever the network knows that the more I do that, the more interact with you. The more you have the right to market to me and the more you will be at the top of my stream and the more I will see information about you, the less I will have to, uh, search for you. But if you do something stupid or were no longer friends, yeah, you’re going to fade and unfriend, you just disappear. Unfriending is also awkward. I dated a woman we broke up. It was nine months after we broke up. There was one other friend, the other one, because it’s just awkward. So I woke up in front of me anyway. But you know the concept of not having to do that, just, you know? Okay, I haven’t talked to in a while. I don’t see your posts anymore. It’s the real world. That’s how it should be.

[00:40:24.73] spk_1:
And if you’re not feeding zombie loyalists, they can start to defect questions. So I want to I want to spend a little time on. If you’re

[00:41:11.71] spk_0:
not talking to them, giving them what they want talking about their information, helping them out, they will gladly go somewhere else to someone who is. You know, if I have a great experience in the restaurant every week for three years and then all of a sudden over time, I’m noticing less and less that restaurants doing less and less to take care of me, you know, and maybe management to change. And I don’t feel that, you know, I’m ripe for being infected by another company. I’m right for someone else to come see. You know, Peter, Because if I tweet something like, Wow, I can’t believe I have to wait 40 minutes for a table that didn’t used to be like that. If someone else is smart restaurant, they’re following me. And they’re gonna get you know there’s no way. No way over here. Why don’t you come to black storms will give you a free drink you know, you know, and that right there, that’s the first sign of infection, and I might become infected by another by another. Company becomes a lot less for them.

[00:41:22.81] spk_1:
And so let’s let’s take. You have a lot of good examples. Let’s take a one on one situation. How can we start to cure that? The simple act of realizing

[00:41:42.21] spk_0:
following your customer’s understanding when they’re not happy and fixing the situation before it escalates. You know you can contain a small out Brett. A small outbreak small viral outbreak. You can contain that by getting the right people finding out what the problem is getting into one room, fixing their problems, healing them.

[00:41:42.84] spk_1:
You have a good united story. Back when it was Continental,

[00:42:40.50] spk_0:
I was a frequent flyer and booked a trip to Paris, and it was very angry because they charged me $400 and looking for you. Remember what it was and I called the CEO just just for the hell of it. I’m like, I’m gonna I’m gonna write a letter or an email. This was before Social wrote an email to the CEO and like this is ridiculous. I’m freaking tired, huh? And, like, 30 minutes on my phone rings. Hello? Peter, can you please hold for Larry Kellner, CEO of Cotton Airlines? I’m like crap, you know, and the guy gets on the phone. He’s like, Peter, How you doing? How you doing? Sorry, Clinton. These fees, their new, um, we send them a note, I’m guessing it and see it. We’re gonna waive them for you. But if you have any more problems, you know, feel free to call me and I end up the phone for the next 40 minutes, sort of staring at it like Holy crab Larry killed or the CEO of United. Everyone just called me and talk to me, and it was like it was like, God coming down and say you now have the power to levitate your cat. It was just ridiculous. And so, you know, I have been faithful to Continental and now united ever since, and and they continue to treat me with respect and and do great things, and they’re they’re improving. They’re getting a lot of crap over the past several years, and they really are starting to improve. It’s nice to see

[00:42:52.50] spk_1:
And not only, of course, your own loyalty. But

[00:42:54.41] spk_0:
you’re my God.

[00:42:55.11] spk_1:
How zombie loyalist for them And how many times how much it’s

[00:42:58.83] spk_0:
unquantifiable qualified. Dr. Drag, So many friends to united. I’ve made so many friends. Uh, my father, you know, uh, he only flies united now, which means he only drag drag my mom Only in United only drag my wife in United States. There’s a lot of a lot of work that way. Yeah.

[00:43:22.80] spk_1:
Are we gonna go away for a couple of minutes when we come back? Of course, Peter. And I’m gonna keep talking about his book Comes out in January. Zombie loyalists. You have some examples of zombie loyalist leaving and mass like dominoes. Netflix. They’re both They’re both in the book. So it’s so one leaving. If you know, if you’re not starting to cure one leaving,

[00:43:59.20] spk_0:
and then that’s the thing. You know that it will expand the internet with the hashtag everything like that. You know, it doesn’t take a long time. Um, for those things to sort of blow up in your face and, uh, you know, the end of the day, everyone say, Oh, you know Twitter is responsible for for us losing. No, they’re not. You’re responsible for you losing, you know, And And if your product isn’t great and you’re your actions, don’t speak well of who you are. Then there’s no reason your customers should stay with you, you know? And it was so social Media is really hurting us. I know you’re hurting yourself. The only difference is that social media makes it easier for the world to know about.

[00:44:06.14] spk_1:
They’re just telling the story. Yeah, dominoes and Netflix are good examples because they got back, they took responsibility and

[00:44:38.89] spk_0:
they both owned the dominoes, came out and said, You know what? You’re right. Our pizza. We do have a problem. We’re gonna fix this. And they spent millions fixing it. And sure enough, they’re back with a vengeance. Now I’m I’m maybe not even ordered them every once in a while and I live in New York City. That’s that’s a That’s a sacrilege. But, you know, I have the app on my phone from overseas, traveling somewhere I’ll be showing or whatever. And you know what? You’re gonna get it 11. 30 at night when your flight is delayed. You land down. Um, which reminds me I’d probably go exercise. On the flip side, you look at something like Netflix. They they also were screwing up, you know, They were losing their trying to switch between the two. They came up with a new name and everyone’s like, gross public man. And so and again you’re watching the same thing happened with uber right now would be really interesting to see if they’re able to repair themselves.

[00:44:55.39] spk_1:
Listening is important. Both both those. Both those two examples. They listen to their

[00:46:54.48] spk_0:
customers. I think there’s a problem with listening because everyone’s been saying, Listen, listen, listen for months and years and years and years now, But, you know, no one ever says that you have to do more than just listen. You have to listen actually follow up. It’s one thing to listen, you know, I use example, my wife I can sit there and listen to her for hours, you know? But if I don’t actually say anything back, she’s gonna smack me, you know, and go to the other room. And so you really have to. It’s a two way street. Listening is great, but you gotta respond and look, I’ll take it a step further. I was like, Oh, Twitter is so great because someone was complaining on Twitter and we went online, and we we saw the complaint that we fixed the problem and, yeah, how about if the problem don’t exist in the first place? You know, because the great thing about Twitter is that yeah, people complain on Twitter, the bad thing about it is they’re complaining about you on Twitter. So it’s like, What if the problem didn’t exist in the first place? What if What if you empowered your front desk clerk to fix the problem so that I didn’t have to tweet? Hurts is my favorite story about all this? Uh, I used to rent from Hertz religiously. Um, and then I went to, uh, Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport this past April, And I gave it. I was giving a speech, and I go and I my name is supposed to be on the board, you know? So I can go out to my car and it wasn’t it’s okay. It happens. I got upstairs. I wait 40 minutes on the v. line. um, after 40 minutes, they finally say? You know, there’s a, uh, only one guy here. A lot of people might have a better chance to go up to the regular line, like Okay. You probably have told us that a little earlier. Go to the regular line. Spent 45 minutes waiting. The regular line, it’s now been. Are you tweeting while this is happening? Well, I had enough. I was actually not only tweeting I had enough time to create a meme that should give you some idea of how long I was online with myself. And I was okay. Enough time. I mean, I get to the counter how I can help you. Yeah, I was downstairs the V i. P does, and they told me Oh, you’re very preservationist downstairs like, Yeah. Okay. Let’s let’s put a pin in that, um They just sent me up here, like right? They have to help you. Well, it’s not really they You guys are the same company. I mean, I can see the reservation on the screen. You you can help me. Sorry, sir, I can’t help. You have to get the V i p. Next. Like you just next to me. Okay, so if you know anything about Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix. Um, all of the rental car company in the same place. So I walked 50 ft. It’s a

[00:46:57.76] spk_1:
bus, takes you to the big the Big pavilion, where they’re all

[00:48:53.37] spk_0:
next to each. I walked 50 ft from the cesspool of filth and depravity that was hurt to the the wonderful Zen Garden of Tranquility that was Avis. And in four minutes, I had a nicer, cheaper or nicer, less expensive car given to me a woman named Phyllis, who was 66 and moved to Phoenix from Detroit with her husband for his asthma. I knew this because she told me, um, she smiled at me. She brought her manager out and said, that’s another refugee from Hertz and I said, This happens a lot. They’re like, Yep, I’m like, Wow, you think they have done something about that? And so on the way out in Avis, um, I I thank them. I walked past her as I shoot them. This, you know, sort of look at the look of the beast. I get my Avis car to drive in my hotel. Once I get my hotel, I write a wonderful blog post about my experience called Peter and Hurts and the terrible, Horrible No book. Good, really bad customer experience. Once you have a kid, you find rewriting titles about your blog post that has to do with kids books. Um, I do not like hurt Sam. I am. And and, uh, I included in this blog post the five things I’d rather do than ever, uh, rent from Hertz again. I think number three was was ride a razor blade bus through a lemon juice waterfall. Um, with just, you know, and so. But, of course, the next day hurts reaches out to me. I’m Shannon. Well, this is the head of North American customer service. So your bike I’m like, they’re like, you know, we’d love to have Nick No. Like, you’re not going to fix the problem. Number one of the Navy’s car. I’m never going back to Hertz number two. There are five people. Yesterday five people interacted with all of whom had the chance to save me and keep me as a customer for life. A customer who had been so happy and I would have loved you. five people blew it so don’t waste your time trying to convert me back. You’re not going to. What you want to do is spend some of that energy retraining your staff to have empathy and to give them the ability and the empowerment to fix my problem when it happens. Because five people it takes every single employee to keep your company running. It takes one to kill it. Yeah, PS Avis reached out, um, to thank me personally. And, uh, I am now just this ridiculously huge, loyal fan of Avis and always will be.

[00:49:02.47] spk_1:
You have a pretty touching story about when you worked at a yogurt shop. Really? You’re really young? Um, we have a couple of minutes to

[00:50:39.26] spk_0:
tell that. Tell that story that was on the East Side, which again is yet another reason why I live on the West Side. Nothing good ever happens on Manhattan’s east Side. So I was I was working, and I can’t believe it’s yogurt, which was a store that I think back in the I c b y. No, no TCB. Why was the country’s best yoga The countries I c b i y was a poor? I can’t believe it’s yogurt I can’t believe it’s not. You can’t live yogurt. It was a poor attempt to capitalize on that. And I’m working at this store, and I go in every day and make the yoga to clean the floors. I do. You know, the typical high school job. And, uh, it was during the summer and thousands of people walking by, I think, like 2nd Avenue or something. And there were these brass poles that hung from, you know, there was an awning, right? That’s something that they’re never the brass poles that held the awning up and they were dirty as hell, right? I’m sure they’ve never been polished ever. And I found some. I found some brass polish in the back all the way back in the back. And one afternoon I went outside and I started polishing the polls. My logic was, if the polls were shining and people saw them, maybe they come into the store. Maybe they want to, you know, buy more screenplays. And the manager came out. What the hell are you doing? I told them what I thought. I don’t pay you to think. Get inside. You know, I’m like there’s no customers in there, like, Okay, I’ll make sure the yogurt still pumping it full blast. And I quit. I just quit that job. I mean, I couldn’t even begin to understand why someone would invest. I mean, do you own a franchise by 50 grand to at least to buy that franchise? Why wouldn’t he invest in the two seconds it took a little elbow grease to make the poles clean? That might bring in more customers. What the hell? You know, But

[00:50:40.04] spk_1:
you’re not paid to think

[00:50:49.76] spk_0:
you’re not paid to think my favorite line. Yeah, um, I I just I encourage if any kids are listening to teenagers. If you if you boss says that to you, quit, quit. I will hire you. Just quit. It’s probably the worst thing in the world that you could possibly do because you have customers who you have customers who every day can be helped by people who are paid to think. And that’s the ones you want to hire.

[00:51:00.56] spk_1:
We gotta wrap up. Tell me what you love about the work you do.

[00:51:44.76] spk_0:
I get paid to talk. I mean, my God, this is the same stuff I used to get in trouble for in high school, but on a bigger picture. What I really love about it is being able to open someone’s eyes and have them come back to me. Um, I run a series of masterminds called shank mines Business masterminds shank mines dot com their day long seminars all around the country. And I had someone come to me and, you know, I took your advice about X y Z and I started listening a little more. And I just got the largest retainer client I’ve ever had in my life by a factor of four. She goes, and I just can’t even thank you never sent me a gorgeous bottle of tequila like I can’t even thank you enough. Oh, my God. Being able to help people, you know, at the end of the day, we’re I’ve yet to find another planet suitable for life. I’m looking So we’re all in this together. And if that’s the case, you know, why wouldn’t we want to help people get a little bit more? You know, there really isn’t a need to be, as do she. As as we are as a society, we could probably be a little nicer to each other, and you’d be surprised that will help.

[00:51:54.56] spk_1:
The book is Zombie Loyalists. It’s published by Pal Grave. MacMillan comes out in January. You’ll find Peter at shankman dot com and on Twitter at Peter Shankman. Peter, thank you so much pleasure as Amanda. Oh, thank you

[00:53:05.15] spk_2:
Next week, As I said, No show you’ll have an extra hour. Have fun, have fun with your extra our next week, and we’ll be back on January 3rd. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty. Be with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for July 12, 2021: Your Fun Volunteer Program

My Guests:

Liza Dyer & Corina Sadler: Your Fun Volunteer Program

As our 21NTC coverage continues, Liza Dyer and Corina Sadler share their stories of transforming volunteering from in-person to off-site. Then they share their lessons. Liza is at Multnomah County Library and Corina is with Volunteers in Plano.

 

 

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:02:04.84] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of like the Asus if you dried me out with the idea that you missed this week’s show, your fund volunteer program As our 21 NTC coverage continues, Liza dire and Karina Sadler share their stories of transforming volunteering from in person to offsite. Then they share their lessons, Lizza is at multnomah County Library and Karina is with volunteers in plano Antonis take two, the new york city studio were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. What do you say we get started here is your fun volunteer program. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc The 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C. O. With me now are Lizza dyer, who is volunteer engagement coordinator at Multnomah County Library, Portland Oregon and Karina Sadler. Volunteer resources supervisor. The city of plano texas at volunteers in Plano. Welcome, Lizza. Welcome Karina.

[00:02:10.34] spk_1:
Thanks for having us. tony

[00:02:11.57] spk_2:
Hello,

[00:02:17.44] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure. You each have a CVA after your name and uh, tell us what it I know it’s not cardiovascular accident. So tell us Karina, what what is C. V. A. What is that? What do you both? Uh, credentialed with

[00:02:28.14] spk_2:
the C. V. A. Is a certified volunteer administrator. Is a global credential for leaders of volunteers if you have at least three years experience. And then it is an ongoing professional development networking and educational credential.

[00:02:57.34] spk_0:
Cool. All right. I don’t think I’ve seen that one before. I mean, everybody knows the fundraising ones and the events. I haven’t seen a one for volunteer professionals. So interesting. All right. Yes, there are volunteer. Well, we know there are volunteer professionals. There’s a credential. What’s the organization that you get the credential from

[00:03:07.24] spk_2:
The Council for Certification and Volunteer Administration. And there are 1100 of us around the world and growing.

[00:03:15.44] spk_0:
Okay, Well, you don’t want too many. If if you get right, if you get too many, then it’s then it’s it’s watered down. Its liquefy. Its not as valuable. So you want to manage the number of CVS out there. You know, you don’t write, you want it to be something special.

[00:03:30.24] spk_2:
We’ll make that decision when we get there.

[00:03:32.84] spk_0:
Okay. Are you an authority? Are you an executive in, uh, in the agency?

[00:03:37.43] spk_2:
I’m on the outreach committee.

[00:03:39.74] spk_0:
Oh, so it’s your job. So you disagree with what I just said? You’re you’re trying to you’re trying to reach out. You’re trying to expand the C. V. A. Credential, not not restricted.

[00:03:49.50] spk_2:
Bring in more voices from leaders of volunteers all over the world.

[00:03:56.14] spk_0:
More. Okay. Not fewer. Alright. But soon. But be careful though. If it gets too watered down, it won’t mean as much, it won’t be as valuable to.

[00:04:00.87] spk_2:
That’s a good point.

[00:04:19.44] spk_0:
Now, I’m alive, Noma County Library and the city of Plano because it won’t be as valuable. Alright. Um So you each have stories of how you transformed your volunteer experiences in the pandemic. And then we’ve got some takeaways For future future programs, even when we end up back in person. So listen, let’s go to you to tell the tell the story at the Multnomah County Library 1st.

[00:05:23.74] spk_1:
Absolutely. So at my county library we of course like everybody around the U. S. And around the world had to pretty much shut down very quickly. And we were in the midst of planning for our summer reading Volunteer program. And summer reading is a program every summer where kids and families read all summer long. And the whole point is to encourage people to read all summer long so they don’t lose those reading skills between when school ends in the spring and starts back up in the fall. Right. That’s called the summer slide when your skills slide because you’re not keeping up. And so the volunteer program is all about encouraging families and helping kids get excited about reading for fun. And because of COVID We couldn’t have volunteers in person. And normally we would have almost 900 youth volunteers In all of our 19 library branches. So in the span of about two weeks, we completely shifted that program to be at home and virtual. And if you’ve ever tried to get a youth to do something in person that’s already challenging. But then to get them to do it from a distance is another thing. So we really wanted to make it fun and meaningful and you know, they’re already online so much with school. So we had a lot of offline options as well. And that way we could still engage them as volunteers. They still have something to do over the summer and it would still be promoting our summer reading program and letting people know in their own neighborhoods that summer Reading was still happening. You could still, uh, do things with the library online and that there was still reading to be done over the summer.

[00:06:09.24] spk_0:
Give us a little depth what was what was a one or two examples of what you, what you devised.

[00:07:45.64] spk_1:
Yeah. So it was actually kind of an interesting time because I was redeployed to the Emergency Operations Center for Multnomah County at that time. So I got kind of pulled in at the very last minute, um, to start this up with a number of staff at the library who’d been working on this. And so they had already put together some ideas for activities that the kids could do from home. And it’s, you know, of course you think about social media, Right? But a lot of our volunteers are under 13. They’re not really using social media. It’s their parents, their older siblings who are doing it. So we really wanted to focus on things that they could do that would be just for them. So like things like doing chalk drawings in their neighborhoods, in any language that they speak. Um, we knew that we ended up having about 220 230 volunteers doing this from home, and 48% of them were fluent in another language besides english. And I think we had 14 other languages represented. So they were doing chalk drawings, um, and saying summer reading, sign up online or making signs and distributing them to their neighbors or doing pop up stands where they would have the summer reading game board and different materials with them that they would set up in a park. One person set up at a farmer’s market. And these were things, I was not saying, hey, here’s the contact person at the farmers market. They were doing it. These were the teens leading these activities and of course we were giving them ideas and and things like that. But really the success was because the teens had been given that, that, that authority over what they got to do. So they got to choose what activities they got to do. And that was really way more fun than us Just saying, here do this.

[00:07:52.84] spk_0:
You’re a teenager at heart. I love that

[00:07:55.44] spk_1:
you

[00:07:56.37] spk_0:
trusted them and they didn’t let you down. It’s great. And you can, you give them absolutely some basics and sent them off. Excellent

[00:08:06.21] spk_1:
Karina. How about, uh, let’s say sorry. We also provided them with the materials to do the activities. So we didn’t just say, oh, we assume that you have all these art supplies at home because you may not. So we provided the supplies to do those things as well. Okay,

[00:08:21.34] spk_0:
Guerena, what’s the story at uh, in play now?

[00:09:15.74] spk_2:
Yeah. So when Covid hit, I was in the exact same situation like Lizza, everything got turned off and I felt like our adult program, you know, our adult volunteers were kind of somewhat prepared for what they needed to do, um, for their families and in their workplaces. But I was very worried about the teens, how they were going to react being cut off from our summer of service program. So I really wanted to create something specifically 14 volunteers. We usually have 300 to 3 50 in our program and they’re doing things at the library similar to what Lissa was talking about. But we also have them out at summer camps, especially events, a lot of in person social interaction. So I created a bingo style game, just the classic bingo board. The P and plano is really big. It’s our, it’s our icon at the city. So I called it ping go. Um, each

[00:09:22.32] spk_0:
you messed with, You messed with, You messed with the tradition of bingo.

[00:09:26.57] spk_2:
I did. We

[00:09:36.84] spk_0:
deserve it. That’s pretty gutsy. Well it’s been with us for hundreds of years. I don’t know, maybe thousands of years. People blame bingo. And then in plano you call it bingo. Yeah, that’s all right. When he

[00:09:37.94] spk_2:
really turned a lot of stuff upside down.

[00:09:40.22] spk_0:
Okay. Now what in Portland do you call Portland? In Portland? You call bingo bingo in Portland,

[00:09:45.94] spk_1:
you know, yet to be yet to be determined. I was so inspired by Karina’s program that we’re actually looking at adapting that for our summer reading program this year to say that we’re going to have um you know, one of the activities be a bingo board but we haven’t decided on branding yet. We need to consult with our marketing manager.

[00:10:06.84] spk_0:
All rights gutsy. Alright, bingo. You said the P. in plano is big. You know, I don’t know that. I mean, I didn’t know that.

[00:10:12.78] spk_2:
Yeah, it’s an iconic P.

[00:10:14.70] spk_0:
It’s important. All right. It’s important that words start with P and Plano, is it Okay? All right. All right. So please go ahead Karina.

[00:10:56.04] spk_2:
So I, you know, I used the squares in our bingo board who provides safe at home activities for the teens. They could earn service hours by completing the game board. Um, it also allowed me to leverage many of the partnerships I have built over many years at my program by reaching out to other departments, other organizations and, you know, asking for an activity that I could put on my board. It got people’s interest. They were happy to see something positive going on during that time. And then in our third and final month, I had all the teams submit their own ping go ideas. And our last board was completely uh, selected by the volunteers.

[00:14:54.84] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, the Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today stanford Social Innovation review, the Washington post, the Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes, Market Watch, goodness gracious. That’s where turn to clients have gotten exposure. You want that kind of exposure. You want that kind of press turn to has the relationships to get it for you. Turn hyphen two dot C o. Your story is their mission. It’s time for Tony Take two. Sometimes I miss the new york city studio days. Remember SAm SAM at the board, Help me out with the uh, with the live listener love. He would uh, check the check the I. P. Addresses of everybody listening live and tell me the cities and states and countries. Um and I’m thinking about this especially because next week is an anniversary show tease. Uh and that was very special on the anniversary shows. You know, every july we would get everyone together, scott stein brings his, would bring his keyboard and Claire Meyerhoff was there and we’d get some other folks sometimes to drop in. It was just great fun. So there are times when I missed the studio days uh and the live stream that went along with that overall, I’m much happier producing the show the way we do now. But there are moments of angst when I I missed those new york city studio days, so just letting you know, I haven’t forgotten SAm and the studio, The studios, we were in three different ones. We started on West 72nd Street, then we move to west 76 I think, much further west. And then the last one where he still is now is on West 33rd I think it is maybe 32 good italian restaurant down the street. Uh if it’s still there cafe nana, cafe nana. If you’re in new york city, can you tell Sam lives on the west side. He only has Sam lives on the west side. So he picks all the studios that are with either within walking distance of his apartment or easy commute by subway. Don’t need to go over to the east side. Sam Liebowitz. All right, That is Tony’s take two send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized for goodness sake. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag send in blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got but loads more time for your fun volunteer program. Give us a little flavor of some of the board theme, the ping go board themes.

[00:15:35.94] spk_2:
Yeah. So we partnered with the police Department and had a section of safety minute videos. The teens could watch and learn some safety tips from the police Department, similar with our fire department, checking out some tours of the fire stations and learning about what the fire department does. The census was going on. So encouraging their family to complete their census was a square going out and getting exercise doing uh outdoor social distance scavenger hunt with our museum calling or zooming with the relative to say hi, okay.

[00:16:00.64] spk_0:
You brought in the the institutions of Plano, Cultural Law enforcement fire. Cool. Alright. Alright. So we’ve got you you each have some takeaways that that folks can used in. Mhm. Creating their own volunteers activities. Right? So what what the coroner? Let’s stay with you. What what what what are some lessons learned here that folks non private media listeners can benefit from.

[00:16:50.04] spk_2:
I think it’s great to be specific when creating engagement opportunities to narrow down your audience to create something just for teens or just for seniors or being very um specific in creating activities that would interest them and having at home options. I think going forward will be a bonus will be a plus. Not every child’s home has the same resources as their neighbor and being able to provide them with an engaging activity that connects them back to the community regardless of how many resources they have access to really strengthens that trust.

[00:17:14.94] spk_0:
And I guess you could segment by other categories also besides age. I mean maybe section of the neighborhood that you live in or I don’t know school that you go to, depending on the size of your community, you know? Um, yeah. Whether you’re new to the, I don’t know, you don’t want to start dividing people like whether your native in the town or your or your, you’ve been lived here less than five years. Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe

[00:17:43.54] spk_2:
I’ve seen other organizations. There was a food pantry, a senior living to hospitals from all over the US that took my idea and made their own boards and they made them as inclusive as they wanted or specific to their audiences they wanted. So people can get really creative when you give them an empty bingo board. Okay,

[00:17:45.34] spk_0:
Lizza. You got something you can share for us.

[00:18:53.14] spk_1:
Yeah. So one of the things that I started doing throughout last summer was asking our volunteers to send us pictures of them doing these activities or to send us pictures of just like their chalk drawings or their summer reading pop up stations. And then I took those photos and then put them into our weekly email newsletter that we were sending to the volunteers. So it created a kind of online feedback loop of hey here in a normal time, we would be able to see each other and we would see the things that we’re doing. But because we’re all spread out through throughout Multnomah County were not able to see that. And so being able to share that back helped to elevate the teens and their work and show them, Hey, your artwork that you did has made it into our official newsletter. And you know, for me, I’m just like, oh, that’s just such a simple thing for me to do. But for them, it’s a sense of validation that they created something that was then sent out to hundreds of people and it got included in our end of summer reading report. We used it on social media, you know, and of course we made sure to get permission and everything from, from folks. And that was just a really cool way to spread that. And 11 thing I got from a couple of teams, they were like, oh yeah, I don’t have social media, but I asked my dad to put this on his social media. And so it was just, you know, it created a kind of family experience. whereas before it would be kids coming to the library and their families aren’t really involved at all. And so this created a different kind of opportunity that we’re going to stick with this year.

[00:19:39.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I was just gonna ask about the summer’s coming up. We’re recording in basically mid april. You’re already planning your summer reading program. Are you are you going to try to make it a hybrid or strictly virtual again or? Well I mean the activities weren’t all virtual but distanced I guess I should say distanced or how are you? How are you conceiving of it?

[00:20:44.04] spk_1:
Yeah. So it’s funny you say that you know we must be planning, we started planning summer reading 2021 in September of 2020. So it’s basically a rolling programme for us. It takes so much planning and preparation and working with different organizations that we partner with and um, just planning everything for the next year’s theme. And so each summer reading each year there’s a theme. And so this year our theme is reading colors, your world. And so we have gotten teens to submit their own black and white drawings that are gonna be, I think one or two of them will be printed on the summer reading game boards. So of course, all of these things, you know, you have to backtrack, you can’t just say like, oh, we’ll have this by summer. No, we’re like getting these printed now. Um, and then all of the drawings that were not going to be on the game board, we’re putting them into a coloring book. And so the coloring book will be put together by the library, but then distributed to all of our patrons that are coming into place. So it’s not just, you know, an insular volunteer program of only volunteers get this. No, this is this is everybody can get this. And so yeah, we are going to be opening up recruitment in actually next week for summer reading volunteers and um, really focusing on what volunteers can do in that the two months between when we start recruiting and when summer reading actually starts, um, which is mid june. And so we’re going to have zoom backgrounds that they can use for their classes. Their online classes. We’re going to have, um, we’re going to have them submit ideas for bingo boards. So that was the idea that we are borrowing from Corinna. And so we’re going to ask them, you know, in these two months because we have some really excited volunteers and they just want to get started right away. So, um, so yeah, so we’re almost like doing this pre planning this pre volunteer program for the two months between and one of the things I’m working on

[00:22:15.34] spk_0:
itself is a valuable take away. You know, think about something to engage folks from the time they sign up to the time your program formally starts. If you’ve got like you’re saying two months, you know, people are going to maybe lose interest. You know, you want to keep them engaged to get them and start their engagement before the thing actually formally starts. So, alright, another committee. You got another valuable takeaway. I want listeners to to pick your brain to get the best of your brains.

[00:22:52.94] spk_2:
Yeah, I definitely was not planning in september Yeah. For a summer. Um, but I think just having communication with your volunteers, we surveyed, um, are teens at the end of our summer game. Got their feedback if they wanted this again, even if we were in person or not. So we’re still kind of weighing options and figuring out what we’re going to do. But I expect ping, go to return and hopefully be more interactive now that in texas we are open and having some more opportunities for people to socially distance get together.

[00:23:10.04] spk_0:
Okay. All right. So advice their, keep in touch, keep in touch with folks throughout the year. Even if it’s just lisa, I’m sure you do that. I’m sorry, Liz, I’m sure you do the same. You know, you’re in touch with your summer volunteers throughout the year. You must be right,

[00:23:50.74] spk_1:
definitely. Yeah. We have other volunteer opportunities to that. Some of them volunteer year round. We have virtual team councils. And so those are things that they’re gathering every other week or sometimes monthly, depending on which council that they’re part of. And so they’re continuously engaged or we’re asking them, hey, you know, you participated in summer reading last year were planning and we want to know what you think about this. So we’re regularly checking in with them and then of course they get folded into our regular volunteer pool and get our monthly newsletter to find out what’s happening at the library and, and our status because we’re not currently open to the public except for curbside pickup. So, um, so definitely engaging them not just as volunteers who do things for us, but as community advocates and people who care a lot about what we do.

[00:24:07.84] spk_0:
Any more. Any more takeaways, the lessons that we should learn from your either of your experiences about our own activities. Volunteer activities.

[00:24:38.44] spk_2:
I would just encourage people not to be afraid to try something new to be creative to pilot. an idea. It brings joy to people and people want positive, happy fun things going on. Even if it’s a tough year, it still resonates with a lot of, of families and that connection is just really strong. So don’t be afraid to be creative.

[00:25:11.94] spk_0:
Yeah. How about we leave it there? It sounds good. Right? That’s that’s great. Parting words. All right. They’re both CVS certified volunteer administrators. Did I get that right? Volunteer administrators. All right. And they are Eliza dire at um, multnomah County Library. She’s volunteer engagement coordinator and Karina Sadler. Volunteer resources supervisor for the city of Plano for volunteers in Plano. And Lizza Karina, thank you very much.

[00:25:14.74] spk_1:
Thank you so much. tony

[00:27:24.34] spk_0:
My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you and welcome and thank you not welcome. We’re wrapping up. We’re not welcoming. We’re thanking you. I’m thanking you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc where we are sponsored by Turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C O. That’s it. Short show this week. It’s a quickie a drive by a wink without the nod, a shake of flash. If I keep this up, it won’t be a short show, A new york minute, two shakes of a lamb’s tell blink of an eye, A jiffy a hot minute Next week It’s the 550th show, our 11th anniversary. Who How many podcasts do you know that are 11 years old and produced 550 episodes and abdominal to boot. Claire Meyer off will co host, will have live music from scott Stein, our contributors, our sponsors and guest awards. Would you care to guess what the awards are called if you missed any part of this week’s show? I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that information scotty, You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio for the 550th show. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Mhm Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for February 22, 2021: Listen Closely

My Guest:

Emily Taylor: Listen Closely

If you want to know what folks are thinking, interested in and motivated by, you need to listen to your donors, volunteers, advocates, employees. How do you get to the answers to listen to? Emily Taylor talks. We listen. She’s principal of teenyBIG.

Emily has a free paper for you, “5 Questions to Ask Before Spending More Marketing $$.” It’s here.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:45.84] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with hereditary angio oedema if you swelled me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Listen closely. If you want to know what folks are thinking interested in and motivated by, you need to listen to your donors, volunteers, advocates, employees. How do you get to the answers to listen to Emily Taylor talks. We listen. She’s principle of teeny Big Antonis. Take two a webinar or two were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor Simplified. It’s my pleasure to welcome Emily Taylor to non profit radio. She is principal of teeny big coaching nonprofits to meaningful e engage their audiences through human centered design. Her prior experience is in nonprofit management and industrial design. The company is that teeny big dot com and you’ll find Emily on LinkedIn prominently. Emily Taylor. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:47.64] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Happy to be here.

[00:01:49.53] spk_1:
I’m glad. Let me ask you a question and I’ll bet nobody’s ever asked you. Did I pronounce your name correctly?

[00:01:54.24] spk_0:
Yes, yes, I’ve definitely lucked out with the easily pronounceable name.

[00:01:58.94] spk_1:
Excellent with martignetti. You know, uh, nobody ever asks, and they always mispronounced, but I’m always careful. But of course I

[00:02:05.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m married into a more common name. So it made things easy for me. Yeah,

[00:02:20.84] spk_1:
it’s easier to spell. Easier to say now. Industrial design is always interesting to me that I always think of like commercial design, like Cheerios boxes. But But that’s not That’s not strict. That’s not industrial design, really, is it?

[00:02:44.44] spk_0:
It actually is. It’s not the greatest name for a career path, but but it’s designing of products, you know. It’s the people who decide. You know what your cereal box might look like, but also your phone and your car on and, uh, you know, pens and pencils, just everything.

[00:02:46.46] spk_1:
Everything around us has design features to it. And of course, someone else was

[00:03:00.14] spk_0:
inside. You know, someone who decides how they make it, and that’s the engineer. But industrial designer really decides what it looks like what it communicates and how people connect with

[00:03:02.83] spk_1:
it. Okay, well, that I mean, there’s different principles around bookshelves than around iPhones. IPhones A little more complicated, little more complex. What? What did you industrially design?

[00:03:39.14] spk_0:
Most of my career was spent in packaging. So packaging really? And you know it Tze telling you what’s inside of something and you know why you want to pick it up and buy it on DSO Really? I like to think of packaging is an analogy for a lot of stuff. You know how we present ourselves to people have nonprofits present themselves to each other. It’s all a package that someone could gets a sense of before you dive in. Further,

[00:03:43.84] spk_1:
My favorite package packaging comes from Apple computers.

[00:03:48.05] spk_0:
I thought you were going to say that

[00:04:07.74] spk_1:
they’re so elegantly, uh, like the phone. You bet. It’s like on a pillow. I mean, it’s a piece of some material, which is not exactly cardboard, but it looks to me like it’s on a pillow and it’s wrapped in a gentle little plastic sheath. And the the power cable is is perfectly coiled, with a little little tie holding it. I mean, it’s incredible.

[00:04:38.44] spk_0:
Yeah, it is what we call the packaging experience on. And that’s really you know, if you imagine opening that up and having all the pieces jumbled out, you’d be really confused of what to do. And so, um, you know what I’ve been trained to do is think of things as a process. And how do you present information in a staged way So that someone gets it? Someone’s excited about it. Yeah, they can, you know, enjoy the joy. What’s inside?

[00:05:01.94] spk_1:
Okay, excellent. And you’re you’re you’re making a segue. Thio listening. We’ll get there, we’ll get there. Um, but yeah, you You wanna, you know that it’s your first impression. It’s the way the box looks before you even open it before you see just seeing it on a shelf, whatever it is. But then but then you I mean, you’re doing packaging, so there’s also security like you gotta hold the thing together. You don’t want it shaking in the box or whatever it was that you were packaging.

[00:05:16.34] spk_0:
Yeah, you don’t want people stealing it. You don’t want to toe fallout, get too hot while it’s shipping, there’s there’s a lot of different elements thio crunch into that beautiful package. Okay, cool.

[00:05:22.80] spk_1:
And then you move Thio Nonprofits?

[00:05:46.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So I was able to make a lateral shift where I moved, um, took my industrial design knowledge and ran a nonprofit called Design House where we worked in revitalizing local manufacturing, using design, and so we would run workshops on dhe. That was really my first forefront until, like, living in a non profit space versus just volunteering.

[00:05:58.74] spk_1:
Okay. And where’s the interesting listening and engaging with audiences on on that kind of level? Where did that come from? How did you get interested in listening?

[00:06:02.42] spk_0:
You know, I

[00:06:03.81] spk_1:
have developed interest in listening, right? I

[00:06:06.04] spk_0:
mean,

[00:06:07.14] spk_1:
what little But let’s problem where six minutes in. Let’s look what?

[00:07:16.94] spk_0:
Let’s stop listening. Um, well, I I grew up is a very kind of shy and awkward child, and and so I found, but I was really interested in people. And so I found that listening to what other people were saying and figuring out how to connect what I wanted to say and due to that really helped me. Um, you know, figure out how I could connect with people. I almost had you know, analyze it versus it, coming naturally, and so that that has allowed me to really listen in a way that I think not everybody does is I’m really looking for the words people are saying and asking them why they think that way s so that I can understand the context of where they’re coming from. And you know, whether it’s a cultural difference or or just, you know, a difference in in personality. It allows me to like bridge that gap and see where people are coming from so that I can then communicate what I want to to them.

[00:07:19.04] spk_1:
Interesting. All right. It’s very It’s very personal for you, too.

[00:07:41.64] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, it’s It took me a while to really, like, make that connection back to That’s where it came from. Um, but it’s fun. I always love just, you know, connecting with people well, in the past, in cabs. Or, you know, at the train station you just start up a conversation and and here where people are coming from, because it’s always a totally different place,

[00:07:49.84] spk_1:
we’ll be in cabs again. We’ll be in. Captain, it’s coming. It’s coming. Where you coming from, where you taking. Used to take cabs and trains. Where are you?

[00:07:59.54] spk_0:
I’m in Chicago. So we’re about 2 ft of snow in. Yeah, Okay,

[00:08:13.74] spk_1:
so let’s Tze talk about listening. So we were kind of already kind of touched about it, but, you know, like, why it’s important. But, you know, we’re talking about user research. Why should we? Why should we spend time on this?

[00:08:49.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s it’s really important. Tons of for profit companies are doing this, you know, everything that comes out of Starbucks And we mentioned cabs with uber like they’re constantly listening to people and getting ideas in front of people and and hearing the reactions to them. And people are just getting used to having these very customized experiences. And it it connects to nonprofits to people have, once you have those expectations, you have those with everything you do. So

[00:08:50.53] spk_1:
s So how are companies doing this give give a couple of examples?

[00:09:30.24] spk_0:
Um, they’re doing focus groups. They’re they’re interviewing people. They’re putting out surveys. They’re also running, testing, you know, they’re getting prototypes out in front of people. Um, they’re having, you know, influencers work with them to design products. It’s all things that concerned a little overwhelming and expensive on DSO. That’s where I think, trying to bring those the most important elements of those two non profit. So it’s not not a huge cost barrier on, you know, and finding ways to listen in the way you can.

[00:09:32.67] spk_1:
Okay, But I interrupted you when you were describing why this is important.

[00:10:52.84] spk_0:
Oh, yeah, well, you know, it’s it’s important because people are are used to having. Like I said, having these, um, being more targeted and not just following whatever a leader says eso it’s is part of human to human centered design. This is part of the experience of being let’s top down, um, or bottom up, how can we, rather than having a leader that has a vision and everyone follows it to be thinking about, um, yeah, gathering the pulse of the people that were working with and using that to ladder up to the decision making. It’s not to say this is a you know, everyone needs toe to make a decision for all but toe have that input. And I think it’s really important this year because I cannot remember a year where it is so unpredictable what people are thinking, Um, you know, how comfortable are they going out? When are they going to get vaccinated? You know, what is their? How their perceptions of organizations changed over the last year based on who connected with them and who didn’t and you know, stories. They read that it just seems even mawr important to see where people stand because this is like a There’s no apples to apples Comparison.

[00:11:43.04] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS Market Watch, The Chronicle of Philanthropy You wanna be in papers and outlets like that? Turn two has the relationships to get you on those outlets so that when these places air looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy, they call turn to turn two calls you because you’re their client. Turn hyphen two dot ceo Now back to listen closely. So we’re interested in how folks are, uh, interacting with our organization or interested in interacting with it. What what, like what’s motivating them? Those kinds of things.

[00:12:23.34] spk_0:
Yeah, I think motivating And then also you know what will fit into people’s lives like you no longer have the, you know, the consistent after school programs or the favorite, uh, you know, venues someone attended to like I remember. You know, it used to be you couldn’t plan things less than a few weeks out on a Friday Saturday night, and now you know, people are home. And so So how do you kind of get a sense of like where, you know, as a non profit where you could now fit into people’s habits as they bring some of those you know, we’re out of home experiences and to their lives.

[00:12:40.94] spk_1:
So when I was introducing the show, I ticked off listening to donors, volunteers, employees Are there other constituencies that we should be listening to?

[00:12:43.04] spk_0:
Let’s see, You said that donors,

[00:12:45.32] spk_1:
donors, volunteers, employees.

[00:13:04.64] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, I tend to look broadly at, and, um and I call audience, you know, basically people who are following you because a lot of those people could become a donor. They could become a volunteer, and they don’t really see themselves as such. Um, eso

[00:13:06.78] spk_1:
it could include, like your social Social Channel followers,

[00:13:10.58] spk_0:
could it? Yeah.

[00:13:11.85] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah. All right.

[00:13:27.84] spk_0:
Yeah. Um, you know, listening, trying to figure out how do you get them to the next stage? How do you turn them into, you know, one of the other categories? Um and, you know, but there’s really no end to who you could listen, Thio. I think that’s just where I focus is general audience

[00:13:50.24] spk_1:
folks who are benefiting from your programs to if you’re if you’re doing any kind of human service work or it could be customers if you’re a museum or a theater, it could be patrons that way. May not be donors, but maybe patrons to your museum Visitors.

[00:14:02.34] spk_0:
Yeah, and I’m going to make it sound too broad. But the real trick is to figure out who you want to listen to so that you can define it for yourself.

[00:14:11.44] spk_1:
Okay? Okay. But But all these folks, I mean, if they’re if they’re interacting with you in a meaningful way, don’t they? Don’t they deserve a voice in your You’re listening campaign?

[00:14:55.54] spk_0:
Definitely. I think where I’m going with is you know, the people who maybe are following you on social media will have different things to say. You know, if this is a museum, um, I have different things to say that people who are coming in to the museum or people who have donated to the museum for a long time. And so it’s helpful when you’re listening to kind of focus who were listening to so we don’t mix up Well, somebody said this and the other you know, these long term donors think this other thing and and you’re mixing up the messaging when, really, um, you know you need to be separating. People are gonna have a different perspective, depending on how well they know your organization.

[00:15:14.84] spk_1:
Yeah, for sure. And how they interact. So that’s what we’re here to talk about it. So we wanna we wanna avoid this. Yeah, You don’t want All the messages are like all the feedback coming a LH coalesced together and aggregated. I mean, maybe for some purposes, you aggregated. But you want to know what your distinct audiences are are saying back to you?

[00:15:18.25] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s about targeting and segmenting eso that. Yeah, when you listen, it doesn’t get confusing.

[00:15:31.74] spk_1:
Yeah, okay, so let’s let’s let’s talk about how to do this for for different audiences. How do you go about thes listening campaigns? I’m calling them listening campaigns. Is that

[00:15:35.37] spk_0:
okay?

[00:15:36.29] spk_1:
Can you put your imprimatur on that? Is that all right?

[00:15:38.87] spk_0:
No, I love it.

[00:15:44.34] spk_1:
Listening campaigns. Okay, so if you have different listening campaigns for different audiences, let’s talk about some method methods.

[00:16:43.44] spk_0:
Sure, Sure. And, you know, I always wish there was one that could really kind of all encompass get the right information. But there’s different tactics that kind of our good and bad in various ways. Um, but the one I love the most is to just straight up interview people just talk to them and this, you know, that could be done. You know, obviously, if you have very passionate followers that you can have conversations with them at any time and really talk to them about you know why they’re part of your organization. But you can also just go on toe Facebook or Twitter and just say, Hey, you know someone who comments, would you have 15 minutes to chat with me and get them on the phone? Just do that. You know, a couple people a week, and all of a sudden you’re starting to get a broader sense of what people who aren’t connected to your organization are just lightly connected. Think about you.

[00:17:19.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Excellent. Okay, So I like I like that you say, You know, just comment back to somebody on Facebook. I see you know your comment a lot. Would you like to spend 15 minutes talking to me talking to us about our organ? That you you seem to be very interested in? Um, you know, non profit radio is action steps. So, like, what can we dio eso? Um how about I mean, could you just approach? I guess you could just approach volunteers the same way or, you know, you’re you’re devoting 10 hours a week to our work or whatever it is 10 hours a month. Could you could you sit with us for a phone call and talk about the organ?

[00:18:18.14] spk_0:
Any any interaction is ah, opportunity. I mean, you could even if you have a cocktail hour, just go around and ask the same question Teoh a few different people and and take note of what they say it Z. It’s more of a qualitative kind of feedback. But you get some really great answers. Although I would take a step back and just say it’s good to know what you want to learn. I actually had a a little hosted a conversation earlier this morning about listening to your audience, and it was interesting. I asked the group if you could just reach into your audiences brain and find out anything, you know, what would you want to know? And the question really stumped people. Mhm. Uh huh. And so, you know, it made me realize that, like, as you listen, you also need to know what what you’re looking for.

[00:18:19.37] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s like your goal setting for your listening campaign. Every campaign has to have a goal. This is not a volunteer campaign or fundraising campaign. This is listening campaign. So what would you like to learn?

[00:18:39.74] spk_0:
Yeah, you know, it’s so obvious. But sometimes when we just talked to people were used to having a conversation, not, uh, really digging for information.

[00:18:56.24] spk_1:
So when you’re at that cocktail party, if you’re if you wanna engage folks in your listening campaign surreptitiously, you’re not going to say, you know, let’s have a can of pay. Would you join my listening campaign? You’re just gonna say these kind of pays a good I like the I like the little like the little shrimp tails. So what s all right? So what you want to know is gonna inform what question you’re gonna ask or what questions you’re gonna ask.

[00:19:19.64] spk_0:
Yeah, but it might be, you know, how did you find out about this event? This organization? What? What drew you to To come here, kid. Um, you know, those those kind of questions.

[00:19:27.64] spk_1:
What moves you about our work? What do you know about our work, or what’s your favorite thing that you know about our work or Okay,

[00:19:46.64] spk_0:
Yeah. And sometimes it’s a really great time to ask about. You know what you think of certain words. I’ve you know, it’s kind of taking some notes on some clients that I’m working with that are having issues. And I work with this, uh, organization that’s doing contemporary classical music. And they they

[00:19:46.91] spk_1:
have a really classical what? That’s

[00:20:04.04] spk_0:
modern, modern modern composers doing classical music and they always run into Probably What you’re thinking in your head is like people associate classical music with the big, you know, white wigs and Beethoven

[00:20:06.84] spk_1:
Strauss and right. Yeah.

[00:20:23.94] spk_0:
And so I’m really pushing them to start asking people what does classical mean to them so that they can start to really here where people are coming from and what they need to say. Toe to bridge that gap. Okay.

[00:20:25.44] spk_1:
Okay. How about some other methods? So we got the cocktail party casual. We got the, like, the ocean social listening. What else? What’s more form?

[00:21:57.84] spk_0:
Yeah, you know more. Traditionally, there’s there’s surveys which can be big and laborious, so they could be quick. Just three, You know, two or three questions surveys that you pop into your email. Um, and the thing with surveys is, uh I think really making sure they, um they don’t just They asked the right questions. So, you know, again going back to your goals. You really need to look at that. Um, but a lot of times of surveys, um, they’re not great at predicting people’s behaviors. And so, you know, a survey I’ve run into a lot of nonprofits who will say, you know, we did a survey, and everyone thought, you know, Tuesday at seven was a great time for an event, but no one showed up. Yeah, and and you know, I think the thing there is like, it’s really hard for people to predict. You know how they’re gonna feel on a Tuesday night. You know that it tze different people have, like, a mode for answering surveys. And so really, it’s great to get ideas out in front of people for those surveys. You know, maybe, What do you think? Between these three things, Um, you know, these three messaging campaigns, these three event ideas or even just, um, you know what? Sorry, I just lost my train of thought. My cat came into the room. Um,

[00:21:58.63] spk_1:
okay, we’re very We’re very family friendly. Wonderful. It could be a child in animal. Not only family friendly, family embracing, family embracing. You’re welcome to bring your cat onto this. Excellent.

[00:22:35.24] spk_0:
She might she might just join anyways. Okay, um but having what was going to say is having open ended questions so that you can here some of the things that you might not expect, so a lot of times with surveys will we might make assumptions about things. And when you leave some open ended questions that allows people thio, you know, one participate and feel like they’re engaged, but also opens you up to things you might not have thought to ask about.

[00:22:43.94] spk_1:
Do you have a favorite survey tool? Um, Surveymonkey. Everybody knows story. Monkey. Yeah. You have a favorite monkeys.

[00:22:47.95] spk_0:
Great. I’ve just started thio use type form.

[00:22:51.44] spk_1:
I’m, like form.

[00:23:30.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and and that’s been nice. It’s a little You can actually do some assessments. Uh, but it’s a really It’s more like visually engaging software. Um, so I’ve enjoyed that, and I think things where you can just when you talk about tips like putting things in emails So being able to put the first question of a survey into an email blast so people can just click on that kind of get a sense with the surveys about and that just takes, um, shoots him right into the survey versus click on this link to take the survey and then just sort of like one extra step. Okay,

[00:23:34.04] spk_1:
Do you have ah preferred length? You said they could be super long or it could be very short. I mean, I’ve I’ve had folks on saying, you know, no more than five questions or people start to fade out after so many questions. What’s your advice?

[00:24:16.44] spk_0:
Well, I I the big lengthy ones. Those are like like marketing surveys that some organizations do every couple of years. That’s that’s really not by focus. I like, Yeah, I mean, it’s especially right now. People are changing their mindsets month, a month, the quarter to quarter. And so the more the shorter you could make things and the more focused the better. So I’d rather see people you know asked 3 to 5 questions a month or every other month than 25 question survey each year,

[00:25:30.14] spk_1:
it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’ve Got a webinar for you. Five Planned giving websites that set the standard. It’s on February 25th, 3 p.m. Eastern time. It’s a romp. It’s a quick shot. I’m gonna take a romp through five plan giving websites in 45 minutes. Show you what I love about them. Show you what not to do that I don’t think is so good on them. And take your questions. Of course. Always time Q. And a quick shot 45 minutes, February 25th at 3 p.m. Eastern time, and you register for this esteemed webinar at PG Websites PG websites that is Tony’s take two. Let us return to listen closely with Emily Taylor. Do you have? Ah, this is different. Unrelated. But where my mind is thinking. So I’m gonna ask you Do you have opinion? An opinion on political polling? Like the accuracy of polling. Do you consider that within your I know you don’t do that work.

[00:25:33.37] spk_0:
Obviously you

[00:25:34.49] spk_1:
consider that within your belly. Wick toe comment on.

[00:26:36.04] spk_0:
I’ve been really fascinated by this. And this is where I go back to, like, whatever you do a survey you always have toe question what people really are, You know, the action versus what they’re predicting. Ah, nde. We’ve seen that with the last two elections of poll numbers just being way off. And so that’s that’s the sense that I get is, um that is a result of, you know, asking people toe fill in boxes versus trying to get to what they how they really feel about things. Um, you know, there’s there’s definitely a I think with surveys we can put on a we don’t want to be mean to this non profit hat or, you know, with political things like we don’t I don’t You know, I don’t quite understand. Can’t quite articulate how I feel. But I I’m just gonna answer this because this feels like the safe thing to Dio. And so those kind of answers don’t help us. Yeah, right.

[00:26:45.54] spk_1:
They’re misleading. Uh, maybe. Maybe not intentionally Or maybe in time, But anyway, they’re not helpful. Leaving your right. Leave it leave. It is not helpful. E want to attribute bad motivations to folks. I don’t want to do that.

[00:26:50.04] spk_0:
No. Like I said, sometimes it’s It’s because you know you don’t wanna be means it’s a It’s a good thing, but it doesn’t help.

[00:26:57.34] spk_1:
How about focus groups? Are there are people doing those online? I mean, it’s certainly eminently doable, are they? Are they valuable? Our folks are people participating.

[00:27:17.04] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve definitely There’s been focus groups happening over the last year. I find them. You know, there’s a lot to be careful with with focus groups because there are group dynamics that you need to be aware of. You need to be

[00:27:28.44] spk_1:
a pro at facilitating those, right? Yes. Yeah. You don’t wanna go off as an amateur trying it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Because you’re asking for people’s honest opinions and

[00:27:40.64] spk_0:
yeah, and it’s very hard for people. You don’t want to talk about some of those being nice elements. That is amplified when you have a few strangers in a room.

[00:27:48.14] spk_1:
Yeah, right. Yeah. I don’t want to say anything controversial. I don’t want anybody feeling. Yeah, but then you’re not getting truthful answers, right? So you need all right, You need a pro if you’re gonna do the actual focus groups, right? Okay. Do you facilitate those? Do you facilitate focus groups?

[00:28:04.84] spk_0:
Um, I do not. Usually there’s a few people I work with that that have done them, or, um, but, like I said, you know, prefer being able Thio digging a little deeper with people

[00:28:16.34] spk_1:
you don’t have that lions lions, then of focus groups. And yeah,

[00:28:40.34] spk_0:
well, I’ve definitely done them in. You know, in the past industrial design world, I’ve watched a lot of focus groups, so e think I I understand how complicated they are. And it’s when you get into, um, nonprofits that air so emotionally entangled in our heads that I don’t find them as is practical.

[00:28:43.24] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So don’t try this at home. Or maybe you don’t need it.

[00:28:47.52] spk_0:
Just just have a good Yeah.

[00:28:49.25] spk_1:
Alright. Another You got another method?

[00:29:20.34] spk_0:
Um, well, another, you know, we can also get into more data driven methods, which is like, a b testing or doing, you know, sending out several different options. And and so this is not listening in the sense that you people are voicing things back, but you’re seeing what decisions they make your observing their behavior. And so I find observing as another type of listening, like,

[00:29:21.18] spk_1:
what are some examples of things you might A B test?

[00:30:13.34] spk_0:
Um, you could a b test a new message you wanted to use to promote a program or or to encourage people to donate. Um, you know, the trick is to always have an action that you want people to take eso You could talk about an event in two different ways. Send that out and see you know what? What? Got people to, you know, come to the event or click for more information? Um, whatever it might be. But that’s those air. Really. They’re harder because again, you don’t get that. Why? But you do. You do get the behavior, which, as I mentioned before in the survey’s can sometimes, um, not come through because, yeah, it’s not someone’s riel reaction. Where reaction.

[00:30:19.54] spk_1:
You’re getting reaction you’re getting You’re getting data. Um, Anything else? Quantitative. You like to quantitative?

[00:30:22.97] spk_0:
Yeah. I, uh I mentioned observing Don’t

[00:30:26.54] spk_1:
hold out on non profit radio listeners. Now, keep anything into my

[00:30:30.51] spk_0:
bag of listening trip.

[00:30:31.84] spk_1:
Nothing. Nothing at the bottom of the bag.

[00:30:57.34] spk_0:
Well, this one is so observing, I think can also happen. Um, it’s a little harder right now, since a lot of people are socially distanced, but observing people’s behaviors, Um, and this could be, you know, watching people and an event. How many people like, if you have different tables where they’re going, you know, keeping track of of some of those things. Are they paying attention to different speakers

[00:31:01.91] spk_1:
when you’re CEO gets up? Does everyone go to the bar or the bathroom? That’s a bad sign.

[00:31:08.04] spk_0:
Yeah, You just don’t know what it means. You know, I always think

[00:31:13.59] spk_1:
they don’t wanna listen. Uh, going to the bar to drink. When? When? The CEO of the bathroom. They probably don’t wanna hear the CEO. So that’s bad.

[00:31:41.14] spk_0:
Well, I always think of the example of, you know, and a friend to other friend gave a speech at an event and came up to her afterwards and was like, What? Why did you hate my speech? What was wrong? And she really She had some sour candy in her mouth the whole time. And so she was kind of like like making these

[00:31:42.47] spk_1:
grimacing, disapproving

[00:31:46.94] spk_0:
faces unintentionally. And so this is where you don’t want to make those assumptions eso we can observe, and that will help

[00:31:53.82] spk_1:
us. I mean, there might be an alternative. Might be an alternative explanation for everybody going to the bathroom when you maybe you had too much

[00:31:59.82] spk_0:
punch. Maybe what? Maybe you serve too much punch.

[00:32:13.74] spk_1:
Punch, punch. All right, All right. So maybe it’s the timing. Okay. Um Alright, so that’s interesting. Yes. Observing dynamics in a room where people where people huddling. What? What? What might you learn from things like from that? Those kinds of observations when we get back to in life are really ever personal. Presidents? What might you What might you pick up or what have you seen? That’s interesting. Um

[00:32:58.54] spk_0:
uh, let’s see. I mean, you can learn like I think of an example like at a museum. You know, where are people stopping and taking the most pictures might learn. Like what is, um, what? Elements of a space are engaging to people and that could then lead you to ask more questions about why that seem more interesting to people. So So sometimes observation helps us come up with more questions than answers, but very, very helpful ones.

[00:33:01.64] spk_1:
Yeah, because those questions then could become goals for your the next phase of your listening campaign.

[00:33:25.14] spk_0:
Yeah, well, and I think, you know, to the museum example, someone might not realize they were, you know, idling in a in a certain room and taking more pictures if you would ask them in a survey or even in an interview. But if you observe them doing that, then they have to kind of think a little bit more about why they why that appealed to them?

[00:33:42.14] spk_1:
Well, that’s it. Like they’re hanging out in the French nudes room. Of course, they’re all going to say, Well, I didn’t realize I didn’t I didn’t know I was there, that really 25 minutes. I don’t make any assumptions about that Yeah, I thought I breezed right through that. The newsroom. Alright. Yeah, e

[00:35:09.14] spk_0:
Just saying Oh, yeah, Are sometimes our minds remember different behaviors than than what we actually did. Yeah, sure. Let’s see if I could think of other ones. Um, I think that that kind of covers I was I was gonna add toe observation is, um and this is less like little observation, but seeing what? What else? People do. Um, and so this could be understanding. Knew where? Where do your where’s your audience shop? What what other things are they doing with their time? Um and so this It’s not really a different method. You might still need to do a survey or interview around this, but but to understand, um, you know those air behaviors that we can then use to work with our programs on dso understanding that people, you know, maybe are more organic or vegan shoppers might then lead us to think more about the food we serve at an event, um, or or how you’re appealing your, um, your mission to people. Especially like a newer There were people. There might be some connection you can make with other habits and behaviors that they have

[00:35:11.05] spk_1:
or knowing maybe what other causes folks give to

[00:35:32.44] spk_0:
exactly. Yeah, um, you know, And knowing that someone shops set eco friendly stores might than, you know, make them more connected to a sustainable part of your organization. And, you know, knowing that you you have sustainable practices could be more appealing to them.

[00:36:28.63] spk_1:
Right? Right. You want to share that? Okay, time for our last break. Quote. There’s nothing as simple as dot drives. Our executive team meets once per week to sit down and go through our dot drives pipelines. It’s fun to watch them have a healthy dialogue and to see them get excited about their numbers rising toward their goals. DOT drives has allowed us to take those key relationships and bring them to a deeper level. End quote. That’s Wendy Adams, director of donor engagement at Patrick Henry. Family Service is prospect to donor simplified. Get the free demo for listeners. Also a free month. It’s all on the listener landing page at we’ve got but loads more time for Listen closely, and I hope that’s what you’re doing. How did you get the company named teeny big?

[00:37:00.93] spk_0:
I gave myself a small window. Thio come up with a name and, um and what I really liked about it is I love zooming in and out on things. And so the big picture is very fascinating to me, but then to zoom in on these little details that we might observe on doing back out to see what we can broadly learn from those, Um, that was that really drew me to to the name.

[00:37:10.63] spk_1:
Okay, Now what? I’m this interesting s So why did you give yourself a time frame for choosing a name? Did you feel like you could go on forever if you didn’t? Yeah.

[00:37:27.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Coming from the design world, I knew I could spend endless amounts of time. And so, yeah, that was an entrepreneur practice I learned of. Give yourself 45 minutes for an idea and just come up with as much as you can. Then, uh, is that

[00:37:31.43] spk_1:
one? You got a company name in 45 minutes? Mhm.

[00:37:33.13] spk_0:
That’s all right. And then 14 minutes for the logo. Yeah. Kept it moving.

[00:37:41.63] spk_1:
Yeah, for a clever name. Okay. Interesting. Very. That was a very productive 45 minutes. Give.

[00:37:43.74] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting. When you give yourself constraints, sometimes you can get a little more creative.

[00:38:13.32] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s for the those of us who work in the last minute. You feel that pressure now? I’m not saying, you know, last but it. But it’s time pressure. You know, your do other things until you know that you’re at the point where you absolutely have to focus on something else. And then you do. I mean, it’s amazing. You know how I can squander three hours and it’s amazing what I could do in 25 minutes. Uh

[00:38:20.72] spk_0:
huh. Yeah, that’s a part of the brain I’ve not quite understood, but it’s It definitely forces some focus. That helps. Yeah,

[00:38:34.72] spk_1:
it’s valuable. It helps. May not that I’m squandering 7/8 of my day, and then I’m only working half hour a day. But but the time pressure of ah, of an imminent deadline helps me.

[00:38:41.72] spk_0:
Yeah, sometimes you have to force it in yourself. I’d like to think about really didn’t like the names. I could just give myself another 45 minutes. But all right,

[00:38:42.21] spk_1:
you’re cheating. Then you’re gonna cheat yourself. I know, I know. Not setting the boundaries. You’re not supposed to abandon your boundaries. Emily, you’re supposed to stay. It was there was

[00:38:51.38] spk_0:
this part of my brain was telling myself that. And then the other part was like, Wait,

[00:38:57.92] spk_1:
maybe if I need more time. All right. Um, what else? Where else do radio? Where else do we go from here? Where do you wanna talk about?

[00:41:06.01] spk_0:
Let’s see, One of the things I love to talk about that I think is not happening very much in the nonprofit world is prototyping and testing on dso. I mentioned this a little bit in the ways toe. Listen, um and this kind of gets into again, like a lot of listening, and it’s a, you know, professional listening, not just conversation is trying Thio get answers to these questions that people aren’t always able to articulate. And so when we can get ideas in front of people that allows them to react. So, you know, you could you might be able to say, Oh, what would get you to come to this next event? You want pizza or free wine or, you know, you might be ableto like Sorry. I phrase it the wrong way. You might ask somebody that and they might say The obvious answer is like pizza and wine or or a discount. Um, I feel like that’s sort of the ultimate, um, answer to a lot of non profit questions when when they do surveys is people like Oh, yeah, I would come if I just had a discount or if there’s a free ticket and and yeah, I like the amount of non profits I hear that. Say, they gave them the discount and they didn’t come, Um, And so if instead we get ideas in front of people and say, You know, what if we had a Q and A at the end, or what if we, um, you know, told you some really interesting stories about this artist or composer? Um, you know, and maybe share some of those tidbits so they would understand what that actually meant. Um, you can start to paint a picture that they could get excited about, and so maybe it isn’t about the discount or the free thing, but it’s about the the interesting value that they would get out of it. Um, and they’re able to react to that rather than having to come up with the idea of themselves

[00:41:08.19] spk_1:
can give another example. It feels like we’re talking in the you’re talking in the abstract. Can we?

[00:41:13.05] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:41:14.51] spk_1:
Can come An example for us. Toe ground. This?

[00:41:36.41] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, let me think of a good one. So let’s see, with, uh, there was an organization that they were really having our arts organization, that they discovered that people were viewing them mawr as a entertainment venue. So people were coming and supporting them through ticket sales, but they weren’t moving towards donations And really seeing this organization

[00:41:45.71] spk_1:
as Yeah,

[00:43:11.70] spk_0:
yeah, and so they’re kind of struggling in this barrier. And so what we did is we actually prototypes, um, three statements that they could say ahead of their programming to remind people about the broader work that they were doing what happens, you know, when they left the building and on DWI could hit different, you know, emotional touch points. You know, one was really about the big picture of how this organization fit into the world. One gave us a practical numbers around the impact they were making. I think one told a good story about the history of the organization and So those were prototypes. Those were three different ways they could talk to people about why their organization is more than just entertainment on DSO. Then they could take those those concepts and whether it was in a survey and have people kind of choose which motivated the most. Or through an interview where they can literally just get, you know, ask people what they thought about those different. You know, those different statements and use that to then build a really powerful statement that when they did actually go, so have the next event. They had the confidence that that would make an impact. Okay,

[00:43:33.50] spk_1:
Okay. Helpful. Thank you. All right. Um, any anything we should be cautious of when we’re having doing this work? Maybe whether it’s casual at the over the counter pay table at an event or whether it’s more formal. Any lessons learned that we should avoid?

[00:44:00.29] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve been going back thio some of things I’ve said before about people don’t always know what will motivate them. Um, and you know, they don’t always know what they’re the kind of predict their behaviors in a certain situation. And so I’ve definitely learned to live with a certain sense of, uh, uncertainty,

[00:44:01.45] spk_1:
A certain sense of uncertainty, a

[00:45:23.19] spk_0:
certain sense of yeah, helpful. Um, you know, listening is a process, and so it’s not as concrete as, um, you know, maybe some some more quantitative data points, but it is. It’s something you should always be doing. But always questioning on dhe. This kind of goes back to making, making assumptions about people you want to make sure that we’re not taking people literally, um, that that were, you know, uh, that we’re trying to figure out the motivations behind them. The, um you know, not just the functional touchpoints. So maybe, are they attending an event? Um, would they want to attend event, But also the why behind it? You know what really draws them to your organization? What caught their eye about that event? Um, and using that to then, you know, kind of taking those bits and pieces and building a story about them slowly so that we’re not. So I feel like I’m kind of getting in a little bit of a word. Jumble. Right. Okay.

[00:45:32.19] spk_1:
Well, you first of all, for functional touchpoints almost put you in jargon jail. I

[00:45:32.30] spk_0:
know. I

[00:45:32.73] spk_1:
know. Okay? Yeah.

[00:45:52.49] spk_0:
Yeah. Tony and I were just talking about jargon on LinkedIn. So, Z, uh, my watch out is to toe always sort of live in this hypothesis with listening on dso I think of. I think of it as, like a scientist.

[00:45:56.65] spk_1:
Okay, what’s the What’s the hypothesis? Oh, that you have a hypothesis going in.

[00:46:50.38] spk_0:
Well, that’s so a scientist is, um, you know, studying rocks, and they might find certain information about those rocks, but they always always have to keep questioning. Is that true? Is that true? Is that you know, is that really, um, the truth? And so I think with listening, it’s the same thing. People are complicated and so we can keep listening and gathering mawr information. Um, but we also have to know that it’s not solid ground that we’re standing on it. Z, it’s something that my ebb and flow throughout. Okay, you know, a ZX time moves on, and so it’s You have to live with some uncertainty. I e I guess what I’m saying is that if you you know, you don’t just do a survey and wipe your hands and think you have all the answers.

[00:47:06.08] spk_1:
Understand? Okay, right. You may need to have You may very well need to probe further. Asked what? Little asking One more question. Ah, dive deeper Thio to get to the rial. Yeah, Motivations person people really motivations what really moves them?

[00:47:25.78] spk_0:
Yeah. And you know, like this year as a ZX vaccinations happened, Those the ideas that people said in March might not be the same as in September. Eso you just have to live with some of that that uncertainty,

[00:47:27.28] spk_1:
okay, but it’s still worth proving its worth. Oh, yeah. You’re listening campaigns, Of course.

[00:47:35.98] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s better than saying the wrong the wrong thing. All

[00:47:36.78] spk_1:
right, we’re gonna leave it there. Okay?

[00:47:38.78] spk_0:
Okay. All right.

[00:47:51.38] spk_1:
Emily Taylor. Principle of teeny big at teeny big dot com, which was derived in 45 minutes or or less. Um, thank you very much, Emily. Thanks for sharing.

[00:47:53.98] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thanks for having me.

[00:48:00.37] spk_1:
I did pronounce your name. Right? Right. Emily, You okay? Okay. No more shy and awkward either. Well, you’re over that. Your china smart assed, uh, non profit radio. You are. Thank you very much.

[00:48:07.77] spk_0:
Thank you.

[00:48:57.67] spk_1:
Next week, strategic execution you know, strategic planning Now what if you missed any part of this week’s show? I beseech you, Find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives prospect to donor Simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty, with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

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Okay. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on the aptly named host we have a listener of the week, young non-profit professionals network of milwaukee hello, milwaukee! They tweeted learning about non-profit excellence listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio end quote excellence love that thank you so much for that. Plus they’re very loyal re tweeters. Thanks for that also, i’m glad you found us. Thanks so much for listening for loving non-profit radio. I’m glad we’re helping your important work. Young non-profit professionals network of milwaukee they’re at and why p n m e congratulations on being our listener of the week. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with bracket nathalia if i had to speak the words you missed today’s show leveraging expert or tech volunteers we’ve got what you need to know about managing volunteers with special expertise. Where do you find them? What about screening and scoping their work? Our panel is steve hi and aaron dietrich from net sweet and princessa bourelly from juma ventures that was recorded at the twenty sixteen non-profit technology conference. Are you signed up for twenty seventeen? You? Need to and seven security pitfalls not sexy but very important leon wilson from the cleveland foundation and dan revis from idealware walk you through bad habits that you need to change so you don’t put your precious data at risk. That’s also from the twenty sixteen and tc. Sign it for twenty seventeen on today’s. Tony, take two your trump challenge reduction director’s cut. We’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we be spelling dot com here is leveraging expert or tech volunteers from the twenty sixteen and tc. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen auntie si non-profit technology conference in san jose, california. This is also part of ntcdinosaur stations my guests now are steve, hi, aaron dietrich and princessa bourelly let’s meet them. They’re seminar topic is leveraging expert or technical volunteers. Steve is solution consultant for net suite, and next to him is erin aaron dietrich, director of corporate citizenship, and princessa bourelly director of finance at juma ventures. Steve aaron princessa welcome, thank you. You’re very welcome welcome to non-profit radio. Just indulge me for a moment while i highlight our swag item for this interview, which is from black mesh. Everything is in black there’s. A very high gloss notebook with a calendar at the end. And we have a usb drive. Flash driver should tell you flash drive and, uh, upend your basic basic pen. And this goes into our are you our swag pile for the day, which is right here. Awesome. Third for the for the people, for our listeners. Just have audio. Okay. There’s a difference. Hyre let’s. Steve, you explain it off off. Mike let’s, have you explain now, there’s a difference between using experts who are technical and non-technical help us with an overview of this? Sure. So the way we first started, you know, talking about this was, you know, we all have volunteers. We all understand how to work with them when we all have ideas. Part of matthew’s. Um but there is a very fundamental difference between using somebody that just wants to come in for a single day and do a single task versus somebody that has ah, very skill. A very big skillsets and indoors and expert. So you know, with probono the key is they’re coming in and they do legal work for their living, or they do finance work for their living, and they come or technology for their living, and then they want to do that for you, but do it for free. So that kind of volunteer requires a very different relationship with them because you’re allowing them to do work that will have dramatic impact on your organization and is much more critical that you understand what they’re going to be doing, how you’re going to use them and build a relationship with them. All right, erin, is it essential that these technical volunteers be supervised by other people who are technically inclined or who are technicians? So i would say it’s very important that they’re supervised the level of technology knowledge that the person who supervises has will differ at different organizations. And i think the most important thing is just that whoever’s managing thie non-profit ah project and whoever’s, the lead volunteered that they’re on the same page about what the project’s going to be, so as long as they can speak the same language and that’s probably the right skill level. But if you have a volunteer who’s very, very skilled and is speaking a language that you just don’t understand, as they described a project that projects probably not going to go well until you find somebody on your side who can speak the same language and understand what you’re getting involved in, ok, so at least that level of understanding. Okay, now princessa you’re using technical volunteers at juma ventures, we are currently using the probono through net sweet this’s a multi year and the project is going really well, and it is i have been a great experience and opportunity for juma as well as the net sweet probono to come in and offer their experience in what capacity are using technical volunteers, so they are helping us now set up our dash schwartz within the net sweet system, tio take an excel spreadsheet and be able to pull that same information out of net sweet without having to pull all of these different areas together. So it’s going to be sort of easier for us to manage to maintain. So we use their technology expertise to actually do the set up, and i managed the dashboards as well, okay. And do you have some lessons learned to share? Not necessarily. Right now, way. Have another twenty minutes together. But there’s some lessons learned about using technical volunteers. The biggest lesson that i shared today would be for us to be prepared on the non-profit side. Okay, little better preparation. So all right, well, we’ll get there. We’ll get a chance. Talk about that. Andi okay, you have some advice on finding technical volunteers. Erin, you want to start with there, start start stuff. They’re sure one of the things that we shared today in our session was that it’s important to look at who as a non-profit you’re already connected, teo. So you look at who is already, you know, from the corporate side making donations who perhaps is already a partner and look at what their core competencies are as an organization, and see if there is an alignment between their core competencies and what you need help with. If there is, it might be very easy. Next step to go back to them and say, hey, we love working with you, here’s something that were really struggling with do you think that this is something? Your team would wantto look at probono and start the relationship that way. In addition to looking at your corporate kind of connections, there are a lot of really awesome sites out there that can help you find an individual technical volunteer. So we shared a list of resource is today, but among them is the taproot foundation. Catch afire community core volunteermatch linked in latto from empower there’s a bunch community corps for man, power and power and power. Okay, where you could get you could go on there and essentially say, you know, we’ve scoped out this it’s a challenge that organizations having. Perhaps we need a new website and you can go and find volunteers who are taking their personal time after their job to to do that project for you. Okay, i’ve had the catch a fire ceo on rachel chong. Yeah, it was great a couple years, but yes, very true. Okay, is a screening is going to be important eyes? Okay, wait. So we talked a little about finding now we’ve got a prospect pool of whether it’s from real time relationships and partnerships or somewhere we found online screening. We re interview them. Right? I mean, i would think same way you’re interviewing. Ah hyre yeah, so there’s a couple, it varies a little bit. First, the amount of screening, the amount of effort that you’re going to put into the screening process depends on what the type of project that they’re going to be working on. So based on the level of impact of the project was going tohave and the risk that’s involved in this project, you’re going to want a little varying level of screening. So if it’s if it’s a project where they are like princessa talked about, they’re going to be in your financial system. They’re going to be looking at, you know, helping you, you know, adjust you although or if it’s a legal probono where your they’re reviewing contracts or they’re doing that, you’re gonna want to ah, ah, lot more screening a hell of a lot. A proprietary information, proprietary and potentially damaging. Yeah. So you want to make sure it fits in the wrong hands, right? So what do some of those, you know, nondisclosure agreement might be in place or, you know, on actual application, ask him who they worked with before. Do some background checks if it’s needed, but if it’s a vendor that you already have a long term relationship, you’re a customer with them and, you know, maybe then the barriers drop a little bit because you’ve already had a long letter longer relationship with that company and because you’re paying them and they have, you know, are already a setup established program is a little bit different on the type of screening you would do, or if you’re just having somebody build a little widget on your website, that isn’t like mission critical, then you’re screening might be a little lower because it’s it’s not like mission critical it’s not going to blow up the whole world, your world, your mission world and there isn’t a finance proprietary data right involved, but still there still going into your yeah, you still have to ensure that they have a certain level of technical expertise because they are going into the back end of your system, your coding and yeah, so i mean, asking could mess things up, right? Asking for examples of work they’ve done before who they worked with or even asking for their resume or having a full out a sample application there’s a number of things you could do just to get some simple information about them. Okay? Yeah, right to screen him. Princessa any any advice lessons learned on screening volunteers? So going through net sweet, we didn’t have to do the screening. We just we applied we the hardest part is narrowing down from this, you know, these grand scheme of ideas that we need internally narrowing that down for the next week team to then matches teo prose that could come in and have the availability to sort of target our project. Okay, so you potentially could have used more volunteers? Is that what you mean? T to other work for you? The beauty of net suite is that they offer it multiple times per year. So even though we didn’t get to address all of the projects there is, there is a possibility that we could get to it. Okay, okay, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Dahna the errand and steve are both nodding. So i guess you have a shot at this. All right? So instead of talking around, this remains will say, well, let’s, just have aaron, why did you describe the net sweet volunteer technical volunteer program? How this works? Sure so and nets sweet. We donate our software platform to non-profits and social enterprises, and once they start using that platform, they are eligible to apply for probono support from our global employee workforce every quarter, so at the beginning of each quarter and application goes out to non-profits they say, here are the things i need help with. And then internally at the company, we send out an email to all of our employees and say, hey, hear the things that non-profits need help with on the platform. We need your technical skills if you want to get involved, let us know, and then our team actually does the matchmaking. So were the screeners in that instance, we look at all the employees, backgrounds, we look at where they work, what time zone they’re on, what their expertise is and we put together typically teams of two to four employees who we think have the right skills to get that project done. That’s been requested. Okay. How many? How many people on your team princessa there? Ford for max. You got the mac. Okay, now, doesn’t that sweet? Havea probono requirement part of employment is you’ll spend weeks or ten percent of your time or something. Is there anything like that? So, it’s not a requirement, but all of our employees are allowed to spend twenty hours a quarter on a project probono when they get matched up so they could, you know, work it out with their manager that they apply and take on a project every single quarter of the year. But it’s not a requirement. Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you. Uh, all right. So after screening let’s, see where should we wish we go on starting to manage? We’ve nothing scope. Hoping is that we are right now on twenty martignetti non-profit radio. I have george in jail now think if this was a discussion on on hiking in the in the adirondacks, scoping, you know, would probably be pretty simple thing, understand? But in this conversation, i don’t know what scoping is. So get yourself out of jail, what is scoping? So i think the key teo a big differentiator between using an expert or technical volunteer is they will need something that tells them exactly the challenge you’re having, what you’re hoping to solve and how you want, ok, scope of the project so it’s a scope of the project, meaning that you’re going to just both sit down with a document and agree on what are the what is the challenge? We’re trying to solve one of the goals of the project and then talk through that together to figure out what the actual outcome will be. So you know it usually it starts way too big, and then you scale down into something that’s actually accomplish because that’s, one of the channels we have with expert could also employees only have up to twenty hours per quarter, right? And that zoho almost all probono helped that you get will have some sort of ah, limitation to how much help you’ll get and how long the project can last. So the real key to using a technical volunteer is having a chunk of work. That’s, containable, it’s, describable attainable and it’s something that you can easily pass to someone and have them understand. Princessa was this hard? Teo, define the scope. It was hard to narrow down internal given. I mean, you said there were other things get done, and maybe this project was even bigger than it. It could reasonably be i think i shot for the moon, ok? And they had to bring me back down. All right, so i basically put out our, you know, our primary concerns. They chose a a project that they could actually accomplish within the twenty hours. And so the difficult part is on my end, making sure that i’m providing them with the proper information to make the project six successful. Okay. Yeah. You clearly have responsibilities. Yes, a swell as they do. Okay. Okay. All right. So scoping. Yes, of course. We what do we want to see if the out at the end of this whether you know again, this supplies beyond that’s that’s sweet program, but, uh, you gotta have a scope document. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. It’s hopeful about both sides. Not just for the non-profit, but also for the, you know, the probono person because the probono in person and it knows what’s expected of them. And then is mohr able to know if their skills is the right skills and if they’re able to actually achieve it, or to start to understand if it’s even impossible within the amount of time that they’re given to do it? Okay, and that they have to do to donate. Okay, all right, what comes at right now? Snack it’s, savoury snacks are being served and the announcement is being made. That is not theirs, not god. Not on. I’m diffident, it’s. Just somebody who knows that the savoury snacks are being served. That’s awesome that’s extension of a sense of his omnipotence. Chocolate snacks, including big urns of chocolate milk. Here. Then i see which i don’t know about the rest, but i kind of like talking, but it was weird to see a milk in an urn and you don’t see that very clear that they were armed with a silver top. It looks like a three gallons, three or four gallon earned. It looks like to me. Yeah, and with a little with, you know spigot on it. Okay. Okay. After scoping working with our technical volunteers. Aaron, what comes? Next what i’m really getting into the meat and potatoes of getting the project done and, you know, something that’s important to think about there is project management because sometimes you’ll get a really excited set of volunteers. And if there’s not somebody who’s responsible for keeping the project on track, as with any project you’d work on probono or not, you know, khun, go kind of off the rails or can get delayed, or people can kind of wander away, and it doesn’t get accomplished on the time that you really had set aside for it. So focusing, having that timeline, having a project manager who’s going to lead everybody through the process is really critical. But now we are working with volunteers. So where do you draw the line between? You know, team, this is you’re too slow and okay, team i understand. We understand who will will extend the timeline. You are volunteers and we don’t want to lose you because we’re twenty five percent of the way into this now, right? How did we manage that? Well, it’s a collaboration. So i think that’s one of the most important things about using technical volunteers is that it’s not like you’re saying i want this project done, go do it and let me know when it’s done it’s that you are saying, i’m going to work with you and we’re going to get this project done together, so if it starts getting delayed because of your timeline or their timeline, you’re kind of in that together and you can re adjust expectations vs if you just kind of set it and forget it, then you have no idea what’s going on on the scenes, but if it’s a true collaboration, then you’re both coming to the table. You’re both taking on work in order to get this delivered and the project’s going to be something that really resonates with your organization and that you can continue using for a long time if you were part of the process versus if non-profit volunteered just came in. Did something said, here you go and then left. You might not know how to use that thing in the future, okay? I don’t know, princess is i don’t want to put you on the spot and say that sweet volunteers volunteermatch please there, there, there, there, over budget there, behind time. E, you want to you want to get more out of this so you don’t know anything you want to add to this part of the project management internally, we had to make sure that we were prepared for our meetings, okay? You know, you have periodic meetings face-to-face orwell, skype or whatever virtual virtual once a week, and prior to that meeting on the non-profit side, we had to be prepared in order to get the best benefit from the professionals on get their insight in their feedback. Ok, what do you want to say about preparation? You got to get the right people collaborating internally. So internally we have a great team, you know, working with the accounting team and then also communicating that information to the leadership team for their feedback, and they’re circling back to net sweet just to make sure that they know that things are working that were, you know, also to make sure that we’re on track and to make sure that we’re on pretty much on track to complete the project. Okay, okay, i should have asked you earlier. What is juma ventures work? So junior ventures works too. They’re they’re fighting. The poverty, the poverty cycle by providing education and financial literacy to youth. And they employ the use at the ballpark. Ballpark venues around the area and what’s your area. Where are you? We are end. We’re here in san jose. We’re in san francisco. Where in nor new orleans. We have new york. Venue way are growing. Yes. Yeah. Your central. You’re west. Your east? Yes. Nothing north. The chicago. Detroit? Not yet. Okay, but probably definitely on the on the horizon. Okay. Okay. What’s, the budget there, annual budget. The annual budget is eight million. Yeah. Okay. Now, some people might think, why a million dollar budget? Why do they need probono? How come they couldn’t pay for the help that they need? So with non-profits we use most of that that money to sort of support the mission. And it is it is difficult to be able to provide income for this level of professional, you know, services? Yeah. You’re getting roughly eighty hours of technical help. Which several hundred dollars an hour. I imagine if you had to go out and purchase it. Yes. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Uh, all right. Project management. That seems like a pretty broad topic is there more we could say about strategies for project manager? Upleaf i think the key there is just that collaboration and just trying to have regular scheduled meetings and you even having a regular format to that regular scheduled meeting like, we’re going to start the meeting and we’re going to look at the goal we meet the goal help along. Are we on the timeline? I know there’s not much else to say about the project management, except that it shouldn’t be a, um, attack or, you know, like we didn’t meet the deadline or, you know, managing it that way as much as trying to ensure the both sides are happy with the progress, but i’d say the other big key with that project management that isn’t talked about enough is making sure that the non-profit is in er the probono person is seeing their impact and seeing the progress that is being made and understanding how it is really helpful to the non-profit so the non-profit has sort of has a responsibility to keep sharing back to the volunteer of how appreciative they are from the help and the outcome that it’s going to do and what it’s going to allow that non-profit to do, they couldn’t do without that help. And just because the energy of a probono khun feed over time especially the project, is like three months or, you know that it’s time, you know, when they’re when they first start, they’re not they’re excited, they’re energetic, but then when they get into the weeds and then the problems start or they hit a hiccup part of that project management is keeping that person engaged and excited and reassured. Yeah, there’s value there’s a number of ways to do that of, you know, either to recognition or doing many celebrations of metoo hitting a milestone or doing, you know, small thank you says you go, i think that’s a big part of that project management. Okay, princessa you wantto share what what you’re doing around, sharing the value and encouraging the the probono volunteers? I don’t think i’ve done anything specific, but i think what goes a long way is the fact that they can see that their work is being utilized ized and actually brings value to the organization. How do they see that they don’t see that? During them during the project management phase, so they don’t see it until abila project is finished, right? But during the process, you know the fact that we’re not coming back with a lot of changes, a lot of iterations, you know, a lot of going over the time schedule in the time frame, i think it’s it’s sort of positive reinforcement tio let them know that things are going smoothly and according to plan and will be seen to her through fruition, your work is appreciated, yes, and i think the other thing that she’s maybe down playing a little bit is that she is able princessa did talk about how she was able to share that back-up with our leadership team, and i know that the probono volunteers are seeing the fact that there’s, an investment from the leadership team there’s an engagement through the team and their energy is staying up and excited about it so that just, you know, it plays into it, it doesn’t have to be in actually like a gift or anything like that. It’s just that continued conversation, okay? And i think as the volunteers get the exposure of understanding more and more of what you’re non-profit does they take away a real pride of what they’ve helped you achieve, even if what they were building is, you know, a small widget for your website, they are now kind of feeling a part of the team, and i love when i, you know, ask employees who have done probono projects hey, what kind of a project did you d’oh? What was the organization? And they automatically become the spokesperson for the organization they tell you about they light up there like, oh, and you’re now i donate to them or oh, i just went into the five k run for them and there’s so much more engaged now than they were before, and they kind of feel like they have a real responsibility for that organization because they took on actual technical work for them. That’s wonderful. All right, all right. Are we at project completion? Now? We have. We have a couple minutes left together. We’re okay. Are you anxious to get out of here? I don’t know. I mean, the project. I got to go somewhere way. Chocolate milk. You’re looking really good there in the middle. You can’t leave. Until steve, steve are princessa does okay, what? We’re project completion. Yeah, so i think the big project completion to me then is where we ended our presentation was talking about connecting it back to the mission, so then, you know, the outcome was a great great we created this financial dashboard, but i think taking a minute there and just saying, yeah, you just created a finding dashboard, but now what you’ve done is you’ve eliminated hours of work that i was doing every week in a manual spreadsheet that now i can really spend time analyzing that data and actually changed the way my organization works based on this data and just taking time to celebrate that, connecting it back to the overall goal and of inviting leadership, maybe to come in and talk to thank the volunteers. That could be a real way to wrap up and close the projects that leadership leadership touch again. Yeah, valuable aaron, anything. You know, i think revisiting the project maybe five, six months out is also really important for the volunteers just to hear from you about hey, you know, for six months now, we’ve been using these new dashboards. And here’s, what we’ve seen that’s happened at the organization, i had a probono project that some colleagues were working on a few years ago, where they helped build a social media strategy for a non-profit and a year later, the non-profit came back to them and said, hey, you know, because of that strategy that you helped us build, we want to grant to get a full time social media person on the other hand, it’s like gravel or the amazing, amazing stories, but had that non-profit not come back to the volunteers a year out and told them that they would have never known that we’ve just been happy about the project, but now they felt real prime glee that’s, magnificent. Princessa is your project finished? It is one week away from ove r being done there. Go deliver balls have been sent to us, the dashboards are set up, the reports are active, and it is now on me to actually play around with them and make sure that they’re functioning properly and any changes or anything like that, we would have to communicate back to the team, but we’re pretty close to signing off on that. Okay. This’s is exciting. Time was cool and, uh, what’s planned for the for the for the mark. The occasion of the completion dahna we hadn’t thought that far. That’s only you only got a week left. I got to get to ceo onboard is gonna be some something dramatic. Okay. Okay. Uh, all right. This is wonderful. Lots of great ideas are durney project management tools. Online tools that you you recommend that you like. If not, you could say no, but i think the project management for me, for this kind of a project, it depends on the severity or the scope of the project. But i think keeping it simple, askey, let’s say scope, not severity also. Very. Yeah. Yeah. E i think keeping the tool is simple. A za project. So you know, if it is something something as simple as a google doc just having a quick outline, they’re keeping your mini me meeting minutes. They’re keeping, you know, the record of what happened and what got done. You could do something more complicated now, but i don’t think it really needs to be anything more. Okay. All right. Should we wrap it up there? Hands alright, excellent, great ideas, lovett and that was leveraging expert or technical volunteers with steve hi solution consultant at net sweet also aaron dietrich, director of corporate citizenship at that sweet and princess bourelly director of finance for juma ventures steve princessa thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference thank you for being with us. Seven security pitfalls coming up first pursuant, they have a new content paper for you, it’s free and easy to get overcoming the major donor dilemma. How to identify and engage new major donors and also optimized your cultivation process. You’ll find this paper at pursuing dot com, and we’ll be spelling spelling bees for fund-raising are you kicking off millennial engagement in twenty seventeen? You can do it with stand up comedy, live music, dancing and raising money. Check out the video at we b e spelling dot com now, tony steak too you’re trump challenge re ducks director’s cut it’s still up it’s the reduction of the reduction check out to lula, the jack russell terrier. I’m telling you she has great insights into donald trump’s. Potential impact on non-profits and i have minor contributions. Check out the video. The director’s cut. The video is at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two. We got to live listener love. I would do it quickly. And then, of course, the affiliate affections of podcast pleasantries. If you’re listening live love out to you you know who you are you know where you are. Thank you so much for being with me. Podcast pleasantries i still got to check you know i keep saying way we’ve been spiking twelve thousand on some shows. However many there are is way over ten thousand could be his money is twelve or thirteen thousand pleasantries to you, our podcast listeners and the affiliate affections to our am and fm station listeners nationwide, you thought of anything to say throughout the country, but i nationwide affections to you. Let your station know thatyou listen, i’d be grateful for that. Thanks so much for being with us. Here are leon wilson and dan revis from the twenty sixteen non-profit technology conference seven security pitfalls welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. We’re in san jose, california, at the conference convention center in san jose. My guest now are leon wilson and dan revis. Leon is chief technology and information officer at the cleveland foundation. And he’s sitting right next to me. And dan revis is managing writer for idealware. Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you. Welcome to non-profit radio. Pleasure to have you. Yeah, a pleasure being here. Your session is seven. Highly risky habits of small to midsize non-profits security pitfalls. That’s great. Leon let’s. Start with you. Why? Why are non-profits just not paying enough attention, teo. Security? Well, a lot of in the whole emphasis behind presentation was just my travels over the last four years of working with small and midsized non-profits and constantly seeing the same challenges that we’re dealing with. Some of it is just naive nous ignorance, complacency, poor slumming that it really doesn’t impact them until it does impact them. So we felt that this session was critically important to just remind them of some of the simple, basic and black lean tackling things. Okay, we’re trying to avoid crises here. Is that right there? That’s? Right? Dahna i mean, how bad can it be? Security, dan, don’t you have an actual example of or just making hypothetical, but how bad could it be? Well, yeah, i don’t have examples. We worked on a report recently where we talked teo security experts and sort of learned from them what are the things that non-profits they’re dealing with? And we found that, you know, non-profits are in an interesting space, as we all know, low budgets, very little time security often gets overlooked, gets neglected, it’s not particularly sexy, no it’s, sort of the vegetables, you know, the non-profit world. We were surprised by how many people came to our session because the reality is it’s the last thing you really want to do, but i think people have seen enough of the data breaches they’ve seen enough of the issues come out like weekly there’s, there’s, data breaches and that’s on the commercial side where they presumably have so much more money toe to throw with us. Absolutely on dh that’s where we see so much of trouble. Yeah, all right arika okay, i mean, it’s pretty simple stuff, i mean, the way you do, i don’t mean the topic metoo details of it, the way you’ve organized seven highly risky habits. Right. So all right, you know, you shouldn’t be sleeping with a bad partner. What? All right, why don’t you start us off? Well, leon, but you bring up anything point, they were all very common sense things that are happening. What we want to do is share with them if you’re going to do these things, but we wanted to educate you on how you can mitigate the risk. For example, one of the first things we talked about wass bring allowing people to use personal computers in the workplace. We know it’s going to happen because for a lot of non-profits it’s the way that they can save money because you don’t have to worry about purchasing a computer for someone. But keep in mind that you have toe put some provisions around that, like making sure that they have the most up to date somewhere running on that computer, making sure they have anti virus running on that computer, otherwise and who’s had who who else has access to the computer when they’re at their homes, their family members, friends, other type of disaster. Exactly. So we know it’s gonna happen. And that’s why we said that? We’re not telling you something that you don’t already know, but what we do want to do is provide you with some wisdoms and some thoughts as far as how can you mitigate, prevent or least contains some of the challenges that you’re going to be dealing with that so that’s a good example right there. Okay, so way need to have policies, i presume they’re absolutely around the use of the personal technology in the workplace. What are some of these policies? Well, i mean, just having a policy thinking ahead of time, what should we allow and what should we not? You know, that’s probably the first most important thing just to think it through. So you’re not doing that at hawk way or that people aren’t sort of making it up as they go along. But then from there, you know, some of the things we talked about our session things that you already know you need anti virus software, you need to make sure it was on your phone that your aps are not downloading something malicious. That’s pulling data from your phone, you know, there they’re things that you have probably all heard somewhere in. Your life. But, you know, in the work context, we sort of forget that, you know, we assume that there’s someone on the and who’s taking care of everything and we forget once we bring it home, you know, it’s up to us now, and so if you as leader of your organization, aren’t making sure your employees, they’re doing those things, they’re helping them do those things, there’s a lot of risk in that we did it, we did it really a straw man pole where we asked a lot of people had about forty or fifty people in our session, and we ask him how many of you have any virus software on your cell phone? I was expecting to see about release half only about maybe six people raise your hands, and i don’t even think most people know that that exists. There you go. So now wear allowing folks to share to sync up their email, sync up their email that context also get access to certain files off their mobile devices, because, again, it’s how we operated these at these days, and it works for a lot of us, but what happens when that smart? Phone gets stolen, lost or if you’re constantly upgrading, you’re a smart phone and you don’t properly clean out here clean out your smartphone well, if you don’t have password protection and also, if you’re not using anti virus software on their, imagine how others can get out that information. Where are we even gonna find auntie? But where do we start to look for anti virus software for our phone? It’s right out there? I mean, if you go out to the iphone store and just search for any virus software, if you go to the google play store and search for anti virus software, it is out there it’s just again. It’s not sexy, it’s, not something you’re downloading, usually downloading games and absent things that nature, you’re not down lee office productivity, our office, productivity, aps as well as in the especially for android phones because they’re not as police. The acts that are not a police there’s a lot of malicious acts that are out there, so you’re downloading what you might think. It’s a free game, the software but it is designed to then go after your contacts, your emails and other type of other types of information that could end work its way into your organization. Leon let’s, stay with you. How did we enforce these policies that both are saying are important on the in this? This this one on the personal technology side? How do we make sure that people are doing with their equipment what we’re asking them to do if they want to use it in the workplace? Great question. And that question came up a couple of times in our talk. Part of it is human police enemy some of it you can, you can you can afford through technology through right, so certain kind of tools, but sometimes it’s just about writing that policy in place, right creating a b y o d policy and and require all your staff members to comply with that were to sign off and understand a lot of his education, and then try to do sometimes basic auditing and checking with people’s equipment. Verify that they have this, that they have, that they’re compliant with those policies. So if you have the luxury of adapting technologies to enforce those rules and some of them are very commonplace with microsoft exchange and often sixty five you could do some of those things, but you you can’t it cost you nothing to write a policy, to put it in place forces, but enforcement. So there is actual verification. We actually going to look at their device and see that they’ve got on it what we are asking them to put. Well, imagine if you’re working for social services organization and you have health and human services information on there that information get lost, would you would you rather not go after and once a year check and verify that they are in compliance with that as opposed to falling prey to a hip, a compliance issue? Okay, okay, then let’s move on to number two are you know what a second? Why don’t mean necessarily in sequence, but what’s another one out of the seven? You know, another one that i think falls in line with it’s a bad habit that people just aren’t really necessarily very aware of is they’re. They’re not always very discerning about which cloud platforms they’re using so often people wanting his drop box. It’s easy. They probably have a personal account already and so, you know, you jump. On dropbox and you’re putting your data files from your organization on there, the reality is that consumer based called services just aren’t as secure as ones that air oriented, more towards business and enterprise type. I’m called service, so you know, people think they’re doing fine, they think they’re doing good, they trust drop box, but they don’t really understand there is a difference between using that and a more business orian commercial. What were some of the more? What are some of the commercial ones? Leon leon for-profit says that well, i mean what again, what we’re talking about rather than using the dropbox to personal version used to run blocks for business or dog bites for team rather than using dahna g dr usedto get a partial use g driver’s part of blue collapse whether than using microsoft one dr that you get for free if you haven’t outlook dot com account, use it as a part of one dr for business on the part of your opposite sixty five you have greater securities, the i t department or whoever is your tech support provider has greater control over containing who has access to that information. Plus you can retrieve that information more efficiently. Imagine it wanted you using your own personal dropbox account and it’s sink to, like five or six other different devices when you leave that organization. How do we get that information back from your personal rot box account? We don’t basic. There you go. So information’s out door now you’re basically are storing your data and everybody’s home when everybody’s personal device you’re probably not a magic. I don’t know how many people have tried to return. Retrieve a lot of information off a dropbox personal account’s been successful at it. Okay. Okay. So you thank you because you let your name three resource is there on top. Your head. Excellent. Ok. Alright. So safe for use of the cloud of cloud services. Okay, what else we got of our seven? Well, the one thing that we always harp on and people get a chuckle out of it. But we have deal with it is proper password management strong password using stronger passwords and insurance, and requiring that your staff members whether they’re using their personal devices or if they’re using company own devices to use strong passwords and not just using one, two, three, four, five, six or password as your password, but also changing that passed were periodically will do with that that’s still out there, we showed a church, we showed her chart and still one, two, three, four, five, six password no past are still the top passwords being used by most folks. So we again we think that we’re past that, but we’re really not and what we’re what we’re doing in our talk is really just reminding folks and educating them of things that they know, but they just need to be reminded of people. Please have a secure password do not use one, two, three, four, five or password, no path, no pan out used you’ll be, you’ll be, you’ll be better than probably two thirds of users if you just eliminate those three things that i don’t use them. What oppcoll yeah again, you’re right. These things were here, but we’re not doing it exactly when i do it, there should be numbers that should be symbols. It should be a word out of a definition of what a lot of people are talking about. It now is maybe using phrases so you can’t you can’t assume you can’t you can’t expect your staff member to come up with a cryptic pass where like a b capital, jay lorts see one, two, three oh, the ampersand sign and all that sort of stuff, but they could come up with a phrase always use the example of it. He used big mac fries but capitalized, obey in the a m and neck and then using empress stand for the a m a that is going to be far harder to increase, to break to crack, then some some more simple password, but you’ll remember it. Or maybe a phrase that’s just known to you or your family or your yeah, yeah it’s in your from your grandparent’s something, and then you choose the first couple of letters of each exactly, exactly, and using symbols and numbers and still those things, too, make it somewhat creek critics still, because really, what? What happens? You know you’re you’re lengthening the time it takes to crack your password, you know, if they if they know there’s a with just twenty six characters a through z, they can do that a lot more quickly than if there’s twenty six. Characters plus, you know, ten digits plus cerini of upper case and symbols. You just magnify the difficulty. Yeah, absolutely exponentially. Okay, okay, give us another one again. Would you throw something else out from our from our seven? Yeah. You know, one that is another pretty basic thing. People aren’t necessarily always backing up their data. They they don’t have a plan for back-up. Yeah. Disaster recovery, you know, not just a disaster. Where, say, a server breaks down or, you know, something gets erased, but like real disasters, what happens if you have a flood and you know, your servers get destroyed? That way, you know, a fire, those sorts of situation, actually, at last, year’s auntie si i interviewed. I remember you could you could search listeners if you want to find this one. Her name was dar geever ca. It was all about you, you know that. You know, you know that, you know, dark. It was all about your disaster disaster recovery plan. So that was just one year ago. But first of all, you gotta have a plan. You’re not the airtight may not be hurricane proof, but i have a plan, right, let’s. Get started well, that’s the key thing, and we were saying that a lot of non-profits have become more mature, smart backing up their data. But david, backing up your data is just one part of it. When you talk about disaster recovery, you’re talking about protecting the entire environment. So if your server crash it’s going to take a lot longer to bring that server back-up depending on how you been, how you been poor, proactive, into that recovery, then just restoring the working files, how long is it going to take for you to get the operating system back-up apply altum security patches and all that sort of stuff and depending on the type of non-profit you are, is that ok or not for you to be dahna day a week, two weeks, so when we talk about disaster recovery we’re talking about you got to go beyond just backing up the data, you’ve got to be concerned with the environment as a whole and what is your strength? What is your what if analysis for if this were to occur, when are we going to do? Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation, pop trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m lawrence paige nani, author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. Dar even went into the possibility that some organizations may need off site places to go. Well, you gotta have some place rented or or have a share agreement for when you needed an emergency for physical location. It is it is conceivable me, obviously, going to the cloud has helped out tremendously as far as people who still itjust dorner information in a cloud using google laps ofthis office. Three, sixty five things that nature there, they have access to their working files, and they could still use things like microsoft office or google docks and things that nature. But if you’re trying to get to your donor zsystems and hopefully that’s in a cloud of swell, but there might be still some things that are on that physical server and what happens if that server was to crash or the building that you’re operating out of two is inaccessible or loses power? Yeah, okay, all right. They’re excellent. What else you guys got? Well, the one of things that we also talked about that we want to touch on was about software management. And this is about basically ensuring that when you’re doing software updates, patch updates and things that nature, that you do it in an intelligent matter-ness not every not every update is a good update. A lot of the hackers thes days are going through the adobes, the job of e ems and things of that nature. So you want to be mindful of that? And you want to make sure that if you’re allowing people to download software and do updates on their own, um what? What are your provisions around that they’re actually downloading malicious software. So we talked about again, more policies the potential the locking down the workstations and required an it person or tech support person, too. Basically white list that particular software patch up days before comes down. Because once you do that, then it help out with on the productivity. Okay. Okay. Anything else, dan, you want to add about the suffering management side? No, i think that covers it that way. Okay. Okay. Don’t want to go through these two fast. No that’s. Quite all right. Okay. So feel free to elaborate. Well, well, i will share that one thing that in the office, when we’re talking, we’re going to talk. That thing that came up a lot of security and especially we start talking about cyber security, and they say, well, leon and dan, if you’re telling us we have to be have stronger passwords if we have to be responsible about where we’re storing our data in mohr business, great cloud storage solutions as opposed to consumer grace clouds store solutions, what does that say for cybersecurity were what are your thoughts on cybersecurity? And what we were sharing with them is that we feel that a lot of the cloud stores a lot, a lot of the cloud vendors are doing a decent job as far as doing that. What we need to start looking at when we start talking about password management is looking to some of the clouds cloud password management solutions out there, because now we’re requiring our staff members to remember five or six or seven different passwords because they log into their computer one way they logged into google app susan another password because we were now no longer have single sign on any more, so they were asking questions regarding that and make it, and we were given recommendations on tools like last past and so forth, okay. Let’s not gloss over this. Yeah, yeah. Last last past a cz one of those clouds on password management solutions and there’s two or three others that are out there if you go out there and google them. But what they allow you to do is is almost like a software it’s. Almost like a password vault. You can upload a key and all your primary passwords. And then you have one master password with some kind of token key that allows you to then log in one time. And then those solutions was analog into your sixty five. Those solutions argument with in laws because they have they have they hold on to your credentials. So as we’re now moving into maur, this hybrid mode where we still have to log into a local network. But we have a lot of our systems out in a cloud. We have to now deal with howie managing our passwords across both in the cloud and on premise. Okay, about dash lane. Either of you familiar with it. Actually. Password management is that you think is in the same camp it’s in that same camp with last pass and so forth. I mean there’s two or three, they’re out there. Octus another one that’s out there that a lot of people are trying to use for a single sign on between their microsoft active directory network as well as in the cloud. So and some of them tie in with things like salesforce. Dot com embraces these kind of things. So the more major players out in the field, the major software vendors are making sure that their cloud management solutions are our being able to be accessible through these cloud password management system. Okay, dash lane, last pass octa okay, and he wasn’t any another one. You want to shout out as worthy? There was another and there’s another incarnation of non-profit radio. So you won passed hyre special one passes another one as well. Ok, very good. What else? But this is in our list of seven. Well, the other thing that we talked about it kind of going to school in size. We are talked about personal computers to introduce it, but i’m going to talk about that. But then, if you want to talk about, we’re talking about the mobile devices and so forth and the issues that come with that mobile, right? So we we talked about bring your own device when your pc or your laptop, you know similar concerns with mobile devices. You know, you need policies in place. I need to make sure that, you know, there’s a reality that people were using their phones or tablets for work. We’re taking our work everywhere now. And so how do you manage that? That’s a there’s a reality there that everyone’s probably living with on some degree. How do you minimize the risk and manage it so that your comfortable with how people using their mobile devices for work? Okay, how do you how do you know? Well, you know, i think some of the things that we’ve already talked about you making sure you have antivirus software on your phone is a really important thing, okay, you’ll be able to manage on some level the device that if someone say, leaves your organization that you can either you know, it’s complicated, potentially, but you potentially could delete some of the information in particular aps you’re not likely probably to be able to delete their whole phone and that’s probably good for everybody, but just having a little bit more control. On how people are using their mobile devices when it comes to work. And, you know, leon mentioned he’s sort of old school, and i think maybe very prudent in the sense that he has his personal device and he has a work device and he keeps those separate, i think, for for an organization, if you could do that, it really is the most prudent approach, because the reality is you can’t control. So what else is device they’re passing around with their family, you know, someone borrows it to look something up or use the phone, you know, that data contract veliz the reality. And so, you know, you have to think about that risk, and if your organization is sort of willing to take that risk, or if it needs to take some steps to kind of minimize the okay, we have time for one more dan you want introduce the last one? Yeah, the last one is the lack of network security, right? So you’re we often using wifi. You have a router. But did you make sure to set a unique password for that round? Or are you just using the factory setting and itjust admin, which is public. Anyone could look that up and get on your router at any time. You know things like that, making sure firewalls are in place. You’re making sure your network is secure altum throughout and i think leon comprise going more. Did you want to have anymore about network security? Yeah, that’s the one thing is it’s a multi layer it’s, a multi layered approach. So you have to have the external penetration protection with your firewall but that’s also where you need to also maybe have a firewall running at the pc level is well along with the a v and malware software. Additionally, what we were talking about, hiss. If you’re providing wifi access within your organization, you definitely want to have a separate wifi space for a guest, contractors, visitors and thea nature versus you definitely want to do that. And you definitely want because again, if you have people just coming in off the street in public and bringing in their laptops, you don’t know what’s running on their laptop you again. It goes back to a lot of the other issues we were talking about it’s, like, bring another personal workstation in there we’ll have to wifi. And exactly you want to have a separate it one where? Even if you give him a password to log again. That password maybe times out after two hours of three hours with boy, they have to re authenticate, separate from your stamp, where they’re always going to be able to go on and have constant access to what? You want to keep it separated. Okay, we’re gonna leave it there. Ok. Cool. So it’s cool, right? They are. Leon wilson, chief technology and information officer at the cleveland foundation, and dan rivas, managing writer for idealware. Gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I have to a highlighter intense wag item. We’re doing that each each interview and i neglected due in the beginning. We have this usb flash from texas, and we had that to the pile of here. You might have thought we just have a message said that’s. Not true. Thean ten swag pile. Very well organized. Cool. See? Very nice. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc sixteen twenty sixteen non-profit technology conference. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Thanks. Next week, zombie loyalists. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Kevin dollars are am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez, and his great music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Hey! Buy-in what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. 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