Tag Archives: social change

Nonprofit Radio for December 7, 2018: Lean Impact

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My Guest:

Ann Mei Chang: Lean Impact
Your organization can adopt the lean innovation practices that help fuel the rapid evolution of digital tech in Silicon Valley. Ann Mei Chang says you need to, if you’re to do your best work in social change. She’s author of the new book, “Lean Impact.”

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of depress opus. If you made me face the idea that you missed today’s show lean impact, your organization can adopt the lean innovation practices that helped fuel the rapid evolution of digital tech in silicon valley. And mae chang says you need to if you’re to do your best work in social change. She’s author of the new book lean impact on tony. Steak, too. Train. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant bye weinger cps guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us, tony. Credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text n pr to four four, four nine nine nine it’s a pleasure to welcome and may chang to the show. She’s the author of lean impact. How doe in innovate for radically greater social good. She’s worked as chief innovation officer at yusa idea and mercy corps and serve the u. S department of state as senior adviser for women and technology in the office of global women’s issues prior to her pivot to the public sector and may have more than twenty years experience as a technology executive at google apple and into it, as well as a range of startups. She’s at an mei and her book is at and made dot com. I’m very glad her book brings her to non-profit radio. Welcome to the show and may thank you so much for having me, tony. Real pleasure. Oh, you’re coming in loud and clear. Your your tech is you’re not surprising that your tech is awesome. Sound great. Thank you. Um, this lean impact process that you’ve evolved comes from the lean startup movement. Eric. I read his book, but i don’t know how to pronounce his last name. Is it? Reese? Isn’t eric reese? Yeah. Eric mary-jo k. Yeah. So within that, as a lean startup came from toyota manufacturing. Talk a little about just, you know, some little overview of lean startup and how you’ve morph this into the social change, social change, work and lean impact. Yeah, sure. So eric restore the book called lean startup about seven years ago now where he described a methodology for building products and services under conditions of extreme uncertainty. And this is certainly, you know, it’s it’s growing out of his work in silicon valley on dh, his own failures and what he learned from this failures about how we build products better on dh. You know, although it came out of silicon valley, it’s since then been highly papa popular and been adopted no, in business, both big and small and government and around the world. It’s been a new york times bestseller. It sold over a million copies and, you know, and this issue of extreme uncertainties really important. So if you’re building a product or service that is well understood and well defined, and you know exactly what you need to do, then what you care about is predictable execution. But if you’re trying to build something in a realm of high uncertainty, what you need is to figure out how to speed up your process of learning. And that is his court. Insight is that if we don’t know where we’re trying to get to what we need, to do is learn as quickly as possible to figure out the best way to get there. And why should i non-profits care about what came from lean startup, which now your book lean impact? Yeah, so, you know, if the lean startup was originally very focused on silicon valley, like i said in this branch out from there. But if you think about tech start ups, they work with high uncertain because they’re trying to build products and services no one has ever done before and not in the same way create new business models, new technologies and so forth in the nonprofit world. I would argue that we have at least a much if not more uncertainty, were generally working on challenges that are a big complex and entrench that have been around for ages and where the solutions we have are simply insufficient. Otherwise, we’d all be out of business. And so we give that we’re dealing with this incredible uncertainty both and not having interventions that are necessarily good enough. A cz well is not having one that can scale dramatically enough. That’s where techniques such a lean startup i become really appropriate. And yet you know the reality is that innovating and the social sector is much, much harder on. We can talk about all the reasons why, but, you know, from coming from silicon valley into the social sector. At first i thought i’d have it easier in some ways. But in fact it’s much, much harder because, you know, we have to deal with things like highly restrictive funding, you know, impact that can be difficult to measure. It may take years to realize that we worked with vulnerable populations for the whole notion of experimentation. Khun seem irresponsible you. In fact, you lay out some of this. I wantto i ripped out page sixty three from your book. I’m not gonna ask you to quote page sixty three. I doubt you haven’t memorized by page, but because i don’t bring, i’ll bring books to the into the studio, but i ripped out page sixty three and i wantto i’m going to read ah, paragraph. And i think this sets it up a cz just as well as you did. And and ask some very important questions that your book and this whole process set out to answer a grassroots community named lien impact sprang up several years ago as an offshoot of the lean startup movement, bringing together hundreds of practitioners. What has been missing is a framework that answers the common questions that arise when theory meets reality. How do i experiment when my funding is based on activities and deliver a bles that air predefined? How can i create a feedback loop? But it takes years for true impact to become evident. Is it responsible for us to experiment on people who are already vulnerable? Where do i find the resource is to test and iterated when i can barely make payroll? And i thought that was a really striking paragraph on dh. Set it up all very nicely on dh serves as some motivation for people in our non-profit community, too. Well, frankly, they’re gonna start with buying the book. I mean, that’s the first step you got. Tio got it by the book on then and then become acquainted with the practice of the impact. Yeah, and i think in that paragraph, really just try to call up some of the unique town does their face in the nonprofit sector who were trying to innovate. It’s not that we don’t want any of it. That’s not profit. Leaders very much care about these issues, care about their mission, want to figure out better solutions but worked within constraints that make it very hard to do so. I know many non-profit leaders that i’ve read the lean startup or similar types of books on the similar types of training and go back to the days you know their day job and just feel stuck because these these different impediments making much, much harder to innovate. And so, with the lean impact book, i’m not trying to come up with some new rocket science way of doing something. You know, most of the techniques i talked about are fairly common sense. But what i do try to do is look at how do we do this? Do these common sense things in the context of social good where we have to work within these kinds of strength, and i do so by bringing forward the stories of organizations that have been incredibly successful that has found ways to navigate these and other challenges. Ok, i agree. You did do that, and, uh, we’re gonna go out just, ah, moment early for our first break. And when we come back, you and i will talk about the way the book is organized around the three hypotheses. So first break pursuant they have to resource is to help you use data for improved fund-raising. The field guide for data driven fund-raising was riel world case studies of organizations using data to hit their fund-raising goals all data driven, just like pursuing typically is and the other is demystifying the donor experience revealing simple ways to develop relation a ll donordigital durney for your donors. You find them both at the listener landing page tony dot m a slash pursuing capital p for, please. And may you have these three hypotheses that the that the book is built around inspire, validate and transform. Can you? Ah, you sort of set these up for us and then we looked at, and then we’ll pedal through and we’ll touch down as much as we can. But, you know, we only have an hour. You just people got it by the book. I mean, that’s all there is to it. So go ahead, please. Yes, you’re i think you’re talking about the three parts of the book on the book is organized into three parts. The first part is inspire, and i think one of the biggest challenges in the social sector is that we tend to plan within constraints. We look at the amount of the money we have, amount of staff, we have the size and scope of grant and we think, what can we do with what’s in front of us with these? Resource is. And so i think the first line set shift is tio. Think big e also codify three principles really starts. A person would just think that that that we need to start thinking instead of what can we do with within the constraints we have, but what is needed in order to move the needle on the problems that we care about. And so the first part of the book is really looking at how do we expand our horizons? B’more ambitious about what we’re trying to do. Um, then the second part of the book, validate, is really the core of the book is what the lean startup is about is once, you know, have that you know, you’re thinking big, you have big aspirations. You have a potential solution that might work. How can you validate that solution to determine quickly, cheaply, a. Cz possible, whether it does deliver the things that you hope it will be. Too often we spend too much time heading down the wrong path on dh, wasting a lot of time and money before realizing some of the mistakes we’ve made. None of us a t least, not myself, can design something perfectly for such complex problems that we work on. And so figure out how we accelerate the pace of learning so that we can validate what you know. The risks that we are taking on by playing a new solution is essential to getting to a solution that works, and the third part of the book is called transform. And and that’s really looking at, you know, beyond sort of any individual organization and what they can do to both identify their problems. Think big, start small and experiment. How do we look at the broader system that we work in to transform the system to help us all be more effective? And that includes both with respect to solving problems the system change that is required. It also pertains to organizations. How do we change the culture of organizations? But it also applies to the sector at large. How do we change the dynamics of funding in the relationship between funders and non-profits so that we can all achieve more of what we’re looking for. Thanks. Excellent. Set up. And i see i understand my mistake. I called. I called these year your hypotheses, but you’re the hypotheses or value growth and impact, so thank you. Yeah, that’s well, we’ll get to those, but those are the three parts of the book. That was or not three hypotheses. I don’t want to confuse people who confuse our listeners. You you say that, you know, i i mean, i see i saw his like your objective, and this is the last last time i’m going to quote the book. Okay. I mean, i don’t i don’t read books backto authors who have written, but i just love this, too. If you want to find the most efficient path to deliver greatest social benefit at largest possible scale, that seems like, you know, that’s what you’re trying to help people do through lean impact. Most efficient, greatest social benefit at the largest possible scale. And my buy-in. Are you still there? You know, you cut out their part way through the quotes, so i didn’t quite hear the whole quote. Well, that’s a problem, okay? It’s if you want to find the most efficient path to deliver greatest social benefit at largest possible scale, that seems to me that’s what you’re trying to get get non-profits to to achieve. Yeah, exactly. I mean, i think that again because of a lot of systemic constraints we work in a lot of times what we’re doing is nibbling away at the edges. Were putting band aids on problems and doing some good on dh, making some difference, which is fantastic. But i think there’s a lot more we could do. And the reason that i wrote the book look at how can we bring some of these tools that have worked in other domains were squarely into the social sector so that we can deliver greater impacted skillsets. That’s ultimately what we’re all after. Andi. It’s just harder to do what one thing i would sort of add to that is, you know, in the business world, companies are expected to maximize shareholder value or maximize profits on dso everything, cos do you know all the decisions that they make day today? The metrics they collect, you know, sort of incentive they set up all around. How do we match my shareholder value? How do we maximize profits? And what i love to see is in the social sector. You know, whether you are a donor or whether you’re non-profit or whether your social enterprise that we hold ourselves that same standard to stay. We’re thinking impact. How do we maximize our impact? Not just how do we have some impact and sort of feel like we’ve done some good how we maximize that impact, and that’s really what the book is about is trying to put lord some tools that can help us magnify the impact that we’re having, because the things that we’re trying to solve are so grandiose, they’re so large, the problems with the problems that non-profit too devoted to our just so enormous. Yeah, absolutely. So starting with, you know, inspiration on dh listeners. I have heard many, many guests say the place to start is with your goals, you encourage you, you clamor for audacious goals. Yeah, absolutely. I think non-profits usually have audacious missions. The thing that i think is often missing, though, is that those missions are aspirational and their vague. There, you know, we’re going to end poverty, and instead what i want to encourage us to do is that much more concrete goals that are measurable, that our time down there geographically bound so that we know where we’re trying to get two more concretely and have those goals be goals that we don’t know how we’re going to get you yet. Because if you can achieve your goals with business as usual, there’s no reason to take risks or one potentially failing to innovate those cycles that really are a stretch but that are measurable so that we can tell whether we’re making enough progress towards wth um, um, and that sets the stage to orient everyone in the organization, as well as the other partners, to know exactly what we’re trying to get you. If you think of president kennedy’s call to send a man to the moon that galvanized the nation to try to figure out, how are we going to do this thing that we don’t yet know? How to do. And i think for non-profits, if we don’t set more concrete goals, it’s you know, if there’s a temple, it’s easy to fall into the trap of just moving in the right direction but not necessarily moving fast enough or deeply enough. Ah, part of what you point out is ah related to. This is a problem that we tend to fall in love with our solutions and you want us to fall in love with the problems. Yeah, i love the phrase fall in love with your problem, not your solution. I think this is a problem. Also in the business world that organizations can, companies can get very excited about their product or service. And and you get stuck to that and forget about what problem they’re trying to solve. I think it’s an even greater challenge in the social sector. I think that they’re there’s a tendency to fall in love. Are with our problems even more for a number of reasons. One is that whatever solution we have, we often it’s usually doing some good where that we don’t have a solution that’s doing some good. And so therefore we’ve seen it make a difference in real people’s lives on dso weaken become emotionally patch we wanted do whatever it is four more people even if it’s not the optimal thing to do even if there’s a potential to do something more it’s it’s easy to get stuck in that because we’ve seen it do some good and we don’t want to get it out because there’s a real need but there’s also i think because of the dynamics of social lt’s actor were constantly promoting our solutions. This is what you see on people’s websites. It’s what we’re pitching the thunder saying this is the best thing that you could possibly fund-raising dent if i with it becomes part of our organization als identity. And so it’s very hard to let go of any particular solution you have and what’s interesting to me. I talk to and work with a lot of different non-profits is that, you know, i can talk to ten different non-profits in the same sector, and they’ll all tell me that their solution is the best possible solution and out there, and i can’t imagine that that’s true. They can’t all possibly be right. Andi. Yet everyone has that we felt belief. So i think it’s important for us to have the data and look at the data, see what really is the best solution and of our solution isn’t the best recognised that and look at how we can improve it or look at how we can adopt. I’ve somebody else’s solution or elements of someone else’s solution or partner with someone else. And you know that kind of rigor behind delivering them. But most impact we ken will get us a lot further. You’re a computer scientist, you know. So you’re. Of course. That’s why you’re something stronger than encouraging your insisting that we be be data driven, your scientist. And so you’re bringing the rigor of the scientific method to this social change work. Um, we’ll get to, you know, it’s just that it’s tempting to talk about it now. You know, you thought of your book is how to make this change in your your in your organization that culturally. But i have to talk about it now, too, because we’re we’re talking about ego. This is this is difficult for people to abandon ego, put aside ego and recognize that their solution isn’t the best that there, that the work that they have been devoted to isn’t the best way the best way teo, to solve the problem that that that they’re attacking ego is because a tough thing to teo fiddle with toe get people to put aside yet. And organizations and an organization to put aside. Yeah, i mean, both individually and this organization’s again because we’re doingood. Our tendency is tio want encourage each other, pat each other on the back, you know, encourage each other. You’re doing good. Keep going. Keep doing this. You know you’re taking it a lower salary. You’re working long hours. Like who wants to discourage people who are doing that on dh. One of the things that i loved about coming into the social sector is, you know, just the culture. You know, people are so encouraging, so embracing, so supportive of each other. And yet i think something is also lost in that that we because we want to encourage each other. We often are reluctant to ask each other. The hard questions of, you know is working as well as it could. Could we do more, you know, kind of point out ways that maybe something is not quite meeting its full potential on when i said you’re a computer scientist, i didn’t mean to minimise the what? Two decades almost of work that you’ve been in non-profits as well. So i don’t know what the balances. But you’ve you’ve done quite a bit of work in the nonprofit community to i didn’t mean to say that. You’re you’re fresh to the non-profits. That’s not that’s not the case at all. All right. So you want us to think big with these audacious goals that are properly bounded? Think big, but start small. We’ll flush out. Out? Yes. So once you have that audacious goal, there’s a temptation to say i have a solution. That’s good enough. Let’s just execute and deliver as much of it as we can. But when we start small, it allows us to run experiments much more quickly and cheaply. If you’re working with five or ten or fifty people, you can be much more nimble. You can try things out. You, khun, learn much more quickly. You can adapt and change much more quickly than if you’re working with thousands of people. And so, by starting small allows us to accelerate that pace of learning again where we don’t have a solution that we know is good enough to fully solve the problems that we’re we’re trying to address. Okay, now this yeah. So this is ah, quite contrary to teo. What’s traditional and typical and quite a bit less efficient than than what you’re you’re promoting. What help people understand you mentioned these experiments. So what these experiments going to look like with ten people or fifty people instead of five thousand people. Yeah, sure. Let me give an example, maybe from from social enterprise in kenya. So there’s a a social enterprise called copia global in kenya that decided that that decided to focus on the issue, that people who are low income, the being in remote rural areas have a very limited choice of consumer goods. They can only really get this staples, and so they have a lot less choice of things that can enrich their lives. And so they set out this address this problem to give people much wider choice by, you know, sort of being the amazon, if you will, of rural kenya. And you know what some organizations might do is to go out, you know, build some warehouses, build transportation infrastructure, build some catalogue ordering system hyre a bunch of staff and so forth and roll out an offering. And i would take a lot of time and effort and money to do so. Instead, they decided to run an experiment minimum viable product, or m. V. P, which are these small experiments that eric talks about in the lead startup that allow us to validate our assumptions. First, until the case of copia global, their assumptions that they wanted to test were first would people order from a catalog was something people would find appealing. Second, what kinds of products would be most interested in? And third would agents cell from the catalogue could because they find agents that would help them sell in these different areas. And so what they did in their mvp was that the ceo at the time crispin went to the sort of walmart equivalent in the city and took photos of a bunch of different products, paste them into a handful of catalogs and gave them out to a potential agents and a few villages and step back to see what would happen. And now, when somebody came in and they want to place an order, the agent, we give him a call he would literally himself go run to the store, pick up that product just at the retail store by it, carry it to the village and deliver it. And certainly this is not something that was scalable at all, but it’s something that they could get up and running in the course of a few days, or a week and start to learn. And what did they learn? One. They learned that people were ordering from the catalog. It was appealing. People did have a demand for these products that were too hard for them to get, and so they validated demand. Second, they learned what products people were most interested in that help them figure out what things to put in their catalog when they actually wrapped up the business, what things to stock in the warehouse and so forth. And third, they had a surprise that people they thought would be the best agents who were the kiosk owners or the people who had these kind of corner stocked store equivalent that sold consumer staples. They thought that those would make the best agents, but they turned out to be terrible agents because there are far more interested in moving their own inventory in the store. But what they found out was that what made better agents were the people who ran complementary businesses, like a hair salon, where their customers were sitting around waiting to get their hair cut. They could flip through the catalogue order, things that they were looking for and it became a additional revenue stream for the business, and so do the m v. P. They were able to answer all sorts of questions very quickly, very cheaply. That helped them steer the next stage of their business in the far more effective erection. And so it’s it’s, you know, it’s experiments like these that that help us learn more quickly rather than focusing just on how do we roll out our program or our solution and the the the m v p. The minimum viable product? That’s that, that that’s at the at the root of all this. It’s it’s it’s smart because it’s you will avoid risk. You’re avoiding spending a lot of money and a lot of time on a solution that isn’t the best. Maybe based on assumptions that are invalid on dh, then is going is going to end up doing a disservice to the people you’re trying to serve to your employees, to your funders that flesh out more this and how non-profits could you apply the the minimum viable product to their work? Think, think through how to do that? Yeah, so that the way that you so the minimum viable product is really an experiment that test my hypothesis. So just step back a little bit when we think small. So when we have a solution and we know there’s some risks behind whether it will work or not, there’s some unknown. The first step is to identify that is unknown, so we contest that, and in the realm of social innovation, i think there’s three pillars of what makes a successful social innovation. And that is that it has to deliver value impacting growth. So value is something people want not only want, but we’ll demand will come back for will tell their friends about it. Fill a deeply felt need both by your beneficiary as well as by other stakeholders who need to buy-in is that people don’t want what you have. The offer. You’re going to be swimming upstream the whole time, the second once you have, you know, ascertain something people want. You have to ask, doesn’t have impact. Does this make a difference? Does it deliver the social benefit you’re looking for? In other words, does it work on guys? Too often we get far along and delivering something that people want, and that sounds good. To us but doesn’t necessarily deliver the social impact. And then the third pillar is growth, even if we’re delivery social impact from a few people, usually a scope of a problem, this huge there, maybe millions or hundreds of millions of people who have a particular need. And so how do we create an engine that will accelerate growth over time so that we can reach people enough people to really move the needle and sew? The m. V p is really the first step in what eric calls the build, measure learned feedback loop, which is essentially applying the scientific method to the risks that we identify. And each of these three categories that you identify a potential risk, for example, that people may not want to order from the catalog. You build an m p p, like copia did to test that assumption. Then you measure the results. You gathered data to see how many people ordered people engage, and then finally you learn. If you’re successful, then maybe it safe to double down. If you’re not successful like, for example, with copia, they’re there. They found out that the agents in the in these corner stores were not selling from the catalogue that they had to tweak their solution to to to look for other agents that might be more effective. And sometimes you find that, you know, you’re completely off base and you need to pivot and take a different direction altogether. And so it’s driving that bill measure learned feedback loop quickly as possible. That dr social innovation and, you know, we all do this in the bull court, of course, of time. Except that often the bill measure learned feedback loop. It can take years. By the time we deploy a program, you know, measure it, evaluate and learn from it. It can take years. And so what lean impact does is really asked. How do we move that learning cycle from an order of years to an order of days or weeks? All right, we gotta take another break when we come back and may and i, uh but also more stories about ah ah. Public school system, for instance, a cz. Great examples of this. This constant testing and learning iterating. And we’re talking about wagner sita is if you need help with your nine ninety, do you? I hope you hope you’re getting it out very soon. Are your books properly managed? Have you got the books? I do. Do you know how you’re doing financially? If you’ve got to see piela, maybe you’re thinking about a change in twenty nineteen. Talk to the wagner, the partner there. Eat huge tomb. You know him? He’s been a guest. You know him. Start out at wagner cps dot com and then pick up the phone. Talk to you. Check out regular cps dot com. Now time for tony’s take two training trains. I encourage you to invest in basic planned giving training for your fund-raising team, and i recognise your fund-raising team might be just you or you and the ceo that but get the basics of plan giving down. You want them to be you and your and your team. You want to be comfortable opening the door to conversations about a state plan. Gifts. That’s all that’s this’s not expertise. This is opening doors to conversations. You’re not talking about death like a lot of fundraisers. Think that complete misconception you’re talking about the long term value of your work and what what a long term gift is going to mean to keeping that work going beyond all of us. So that’s the that’s the essence of basic plan giving training. And in my video, i put a little holiday spin on training. So you check that out at tony martignetti dot com. Let’s go back to and mae chang and lean impact. Oh, and may you have this example of summat public schools. I felt like they were a good example of this iterating and was testing, learning and iterating. Yeah, one of the reasons that i think people struggled to look at how you can apply these tools in the social sector is that impact can take a long time to measure on dh, take a long time to fully realize and so you know. Example. Some of public schools is a great one because they work in education, where educational attainment is one of those things. Take a long time to fully realize that the founder of summat public schools, a woman named diane tavener, started out with this audacious goal that she wanted to start some schools that would serve a diverse student population, where one hundred percent of them would graduate from college. Now they brought in the best practices that they could find in education. Started up a couple charter schools, and eight years later, when they’re first cohort graduated from college, they they were highly successful. They beat out most of their peers and, you know, people were recognizing from this and encouraging her to just gail her solution. But but what diane recognised was that even though that they were doing well, they were doing better than any others. She believed they could do better, and she won’t had wanted to, you know, say she had set out with this goal of getting one hundred percent of students to graduate and they weren’t there yet. And so she she decided to invest instead and trying to figure out how to improve on the model. But she realized she didn’t want to wait another eight years for the next cohort to graduate. You know that that would be way too long in orderto see whether she was improving the models. Enough. So instead she decided to focus on building in a culture of of learning of it, aeration of innovation into their organization. And so what this looks like was they started out by running weeklong experiments for and did so over the course of fifty seven weeks, and each week they would bury the the structure of their classroom, the content of the classroom, the types of activities, whether it be, you know, kind of traditional lectures by teachers or south paste elearning on computers or small group project, or one on one tutoring. And they would look at all these different ways tools that they had and measure it each week by running student assessments, doing focus groups to see what the students are most engaged with interviewing teachers. And so each week they would gather this data marin what worked and didn’t work about what they had tried that week and that that’s what they’re doing and then try something slightly different the next. And so over the course of these this year, they essentially refined their model, a very transformative model for personalized learning and and, you know, have been highly successful. Their most recent cohort, ninety nine percent, got admitted to college. You know, they haven’t yet graduated from college. But now this model that they’ve developed has been adopted by over three hundred public schools around the country. So it shows that when you take a little bit more time up front to invest in improving what you’re doing to really maximizing the quality of what you’re able to deliver, then it’ll pay dividends over time. And and even in the case of education where you know, fully measuring educational attainment may take years and eventually get, they’ll get to looking at their graduation rates from college. There are often earlier indicators that can help you determine whether you’re on track or not and help you improve your solution along the way. And as you’re improving, you’re there’s a very good chance you’ll be. You may need to pivot at based on what you’re learning. I thought the the vision spring case in the book is a is a good example of multiple pivots. Can you talk about that one? Geever. Yeah. So a lot of times when we think about innovation, we think about the big, flashy new ideas and visions. Spring decided to focus on a seven hundred year old invention that has been proven teo. Increase productivity and improve learning potential and that i’d lost. And so, despite being seven hundred years old there’s an estimated two and a half billion people who need eyeglasses and don’t have them. Mental vision spring thought to bridge the gap you know we talked about earlier. They set out with an audacious goal that there’s two one a half billion people in need, and they started out of most non-profits would by looking, piloting in two locations in their case, elsalvador. In india, they recruited people they called vision entrepreneurs to go out to rule areas, division exams and provide eyeglasses and came back with really moving stories of people who weren’t able to work in a work again. Kids who weren’t able tto learn being latto learn more effectively, and many non-profits would be thrilled by that. You know, we’re making a big difference, but it wasn’t enough for vision spring. They recognized they were losing money with each person they reached, and they would never be able to scale to the degree that they needed teo achieve their goal. So they pivoted. Their second incarnation is that they set a vision centres in more urban areas that was serving more affluent population and took the profits from that too. Cross subsidize outreached into more rural areas. Through this mechanism, they were able to become financially self sustainable, also something that most non-profits would think. This is a huge success, not only doing good, we’re doing it in a financially self sustainable way. Prevision spring thought again it wasn’t enough because it would take them decades to be able to scale their infrastructure. To get to all the people around the world who could benefit, they pivoted again. They partnered with of organization in bangladesh called brac, who it which has community health care workers in every corner of the country and used their existing network to provide vision care. And through their partnership with brak, they’ve reached over a million people. Today on dh through other partnerships have not reached over four and a half million people. Well, that’s a pretty impressive number for a non-profits before and a half million people. But it still wasn’t enough provisions. Springbox kuze four and a half million is only a tiny fraction of two and a half billion, and they recognised that the problem here was really a systems problem that anyone organization could never reach. All of these people that we needed to figure out how to make marketsmart and how to make governments work better. And so they decided, instead of a public private partnership called the alliance that brought together eyeglass manufacturers, non-profits and local government to look at how they could work together to change the system. Tio encourage eyeglass manufacturers to manufacturer lower costs eyeglasses and distribute them to more remote areas, and to encourage governments to provide i care to their citizens. And one of their early successes was with the government of liberia. They find a mou where the government liberia agreed to work with, um, to provide vision care, do their national health care network as well as the public school system. Until you can imagine now, as they’re approaching this this problem from a more systems approach and working with making governments and businesses work for for people to provide vision, care to everyone that they can eventually get to this. This really audacious school they set out to, but it required them to be humble enough again, to your point, to put their ego aside to recognize when their solution wasn’t good enough and to be willing to pivot. Okay, i like that examples. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Alright, wait taking a break. Tell us. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tello’s then think about this. What companies can you ask that would consider switching their credit card processing to tell us? Maybe it’s one owned by a boardmember. Maybe it’s one that’s already been supporting. You talk to them, have them watch the video. And if they switch, you get that long stream of passive revenue every single month. It’s it’s basically dahna unearned, but you’ve earned it. It’s that long stream, passive revenue that’s that’s the goal. And that’s what you can get through. Tello’s you’ll find this video and the intro at tony dot m a slash tony. Tell us now, back to and mae chang. Um and may the the tech industry has taken off well, not just recently, but has been able to grow so zoho so rapidly what you call the hockey stick growth growth curve. And a lot of that is explained by moore’s law. Ah, that dahna, eh? You know what? I think i know what it is, but you’re the computer scientists. You tell us just briefly what moore’s law is yes, the moore’s law was something that was defined by more. Who is that intel, i think almost fifty years ago now that said the number of transistors essentially, that the speed of computer chips would double every two years. I mean, tell true for almost fifty years now, and because of this, it’s driven this exponential growth in the computing industry, where computer that used to take up the whole building now fits in your pocket, and you can imagine all the things that that’s enabled us to do. And so, you know, it’s the underlying driver, a lot of the progress we see in the tech industry. So my question to you is, what is maize law going to be? There’s got to be. We have that. We need a maze law for the for the social change sector. Well, i think that, you know, moore’s law certainly has given the speed of computers, the advancement in the speed of computers. But what’s behind it in terms of like how how does that actually happen? You don’t just sit back and have more law takes place. Part of how that happened is because silicon valley is so competitive because there are are so many opportunities that people have really refined away to accelerate progress and accelerate innovation. And that’s what i think the lean startup captured so well. And it really is about having those audacious goals. You know, like how do you know? Doubling every two years is is a really fast pace of progress, and that requires organisations to take risks, to try different techniques, to try different approaches and figure out howto learn as quickly as possible. And that’s you know, where some of these innovation techniques i’ve really been home. But i do think that these techniques are just as important and justice needed for the social sector because we’re talking about solving, you know, real challenges, that where people are suffering, where there’s real needs. And so we need it more than ever. And i truly believe that the same techniques are equally ethical in the social sector. I’ve seen organizations, the success, sloan applying them and be able to dramatically magnify their impact. Andi so you know, i think there is a real translation there, but again, it’s not easy. It’s much harder in the social sector, and so you know, the lean impact book is really my attempt at looking at how do we adapt these tools for the realities of social good? Okay, i hope you believe in all this because that’s what the book is about. So you say you said you believe these tools apply. I hope you do. All right, but i’m challenging you. I want to see a maze law and maze low if you want. But i like the, you know, like the liberation of going from morris to maze, so yeah, i mean, are you, um i’m concerned, are you? I’m concerned. I guess i’m not really asking. I’m telling you. What about my concern? I’m i’m concerned about what i call legacy non-profits. Maybe i don’t catch if you use that in the book, but you know, the ones that are so big and bureaucratic that taking on new thinking like this and vast culture change just doesn’t seem likely. I mean, they just seem like dinosaurs that don’t know what their future is. Don’t know how bleak their future is. I don’t know. Are you more optimistic? And i am about those those types of legacy institutions. I am. I mean, maybe it’s in part because in my last job at uc, i’d e i worked at one of those dinosaur institutions, you know, on the underside here. But we also worked with a lot of large established non-profits that have been around for ages. You know, the yusa ideas, the us government’s foreign aid agency were one of the largest donors in the world. And we’re government. So you know, we are, ah, large, entrenched bureaucratic organization, andi. Even that yusa idea, we know with the vision of russia whose administrator, when i joined you, say i’d haye set up something called the global development lab that was recognizing that, you know, the world is changing, and we need to change with it if we want to stay relevant. So the lab was set up with this duel part mission teo identify innovations that could dramatically move the needle on our aim to fight global poverty as well as to look at how we could transform the development, the tools in our approach to development self to accelerate both our own work and those of our partners. And so so i saw through that how we could in a large established bureaucratic organization start planting the seeds of a new culture. It’s not easy. In our case, it was a separate team that kind of started out that was protected by the leaders shippen. But that ultimately, overtime made inroads across the whole agency by finding other people who really know saw the need, you know, felt felt, felt compelled to find better tools on dh were interesting partnering with us. And i thought, i’ve seen this happen at lots of large non-profits as well, that they know that they recognize that, you know, people work at non-profits, who they care about the mission. And even though some parts of organizations maybe entrench, there’s always some people there who, you know are restless and want to find better solutions and are just looking for the tools and opportunity to use. Um, yeah. All right, well, that was exactly we capitalize on that restlessness because, you know, doing well isn’t as good, is doing the best. And that’s what you know that’s that’s your that’s your that’s running through the book. That’s your thesis. You know, we wantto do it. Maximum scale, you know, as you say, greatest social benefit. Largest possible scale. Um, i so let’s let’s move over, too. Making this thiss transformation. You know what you call ah ri? Architecture of organizations? Ah, you say that, you know, we’re relying on nineteenth century institutions using twentieth century tools to address twenty first century problems. And we need to. The third part of your book is about the re architecture of not only the institutions that are doing the work, but also the funding institutions on the funding and their funding models. What did you you lead us into this one, i would you like to start this conversation about making this transformation? Yeah. So one of the biggest challenges that i heared over and over again across the over two hundred organizations i interviewed was funding that funding becomes an incredible impediment on one. The biggest issues of funding is that funding tend to be highly if under most thunders, wants to see you deliver very concrete short term delivery bubbles, that’s and that’s what how they measure you by and in your proposal, they expect you to layout in excruciating detail exactly how you’re going to do that, how you’re going to spend every penny, every person you’re goingto hyre and, you know, put together essentially what i call a grand master plan and then execute on that planet, sometimes over as many as five years. And those plans are quite rigid, and it prevents us from experimenting. Prevents us from taking risks. Potential prevents us from pivoting and taking different paths. When the status types of stories i heard over and over again, we’re from organizations who would get a grant from a foundation, start executing on that grant. Realized that it wasn’t working, but then continue doing it anyway. And of course, no one wants to go on the record about this buy-in tell you there’s lots of organizations that do this, but it’s just too hard to go back to your funder and say, this isn’t working. You’re worried you’re gonna lose the grants all together, then andi. So finding a different way, thiss kind of the existing relationship is one that seems like micro management to me, and we all know that people don’t do their best work when they’re micromanaged. So i think the first thing we need to do is we architect, the relationship between funders and non-profits that we need to have a relationship that’s a little bit more based on trust that allows for more risk that allows for more agility. And there’s a number of tools that we’ve tried to do this. The global development labbate use a. I. D. One of those is to tear funding. We have a mechanism called development innovation ventures that was modeled after venture capital where, rather than giving out the big, monolithic grants that yusa typically does, we would give out much smaller grant that we could take much more risk with and allow people to experiment. If they could show us that they had an idea where they thought they could develop a far more cost effective solution. What was that? So we give out these grants that were, like, typically about one hundred thousand dollars for them to try these things out. And if they were successful, they were able to get data back that showed that this thing had traction than we give them a larger grant of million dollars and then five million dollars. And so, just like in the startup world, where venture capitalist come in and they give you small amounts of money to test out your ideas and more money as you get more traction by funding this way in the non-profit space, we can allow people to take a lot more risks. We can allow funders to try a lot more different potential solutions, but without putting too much at stake. You know, because you know what you want to do. If you’re going to innovate, you need to fail. But what you want to do is fail small, not fail. Yes. All right, well, we got to take a break. And when we come back and may and i were going toe, continue this about making the change and talk some about within your own organisation. Now incentivizing and and hiring text to give. They have a five part email, many course which is debunking five myths. Do you think that all text donations or small the captain like five or ten or fifteen dollars? Not true. Do you think there’s a monthly or annual minimum? No, there doesn’t need to be. There’s a good amount of misinformation around text e-giving, and you can break through that with this five party male. Many course end up raising more money. You get the email men? Of course. You text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. And now we’ve got several more minutes for lean impact. So in may, um, anything just is there one more thing you wantto share with with us about lessons that you say i d before we turn it to the non-profits doing the work and some of the incentivizing there one more thing. You can you want to share with us a ride? Um, you know, i think we were just talking about tiered funding and other mechanism that can be really effective is paying for outcomes. You know, looking at how do we incentivize outcomes rather than center vise activities? Because outcomes is ultimately what matters. You know, eric and his book talks about something called vanity medicines that are these absolute numbers that we all used to say we’ve reached or touched or helped, you know, a million people on dh, you know, this is plastered all over mt profit and foundation web sites in terms of trying to give people some sense of what they’ve done. But those numbers are meaningless because it just says, like, we’ve done stuff, we’re good at raising money. It doesn’t say whether we made a big difference in those people’s lives. And it doesn’t say whether another organization with the same resource is could have done even more on. So you know what eric encourages us to do. It would mean impact talks about is moving away from these vanity metrics to actionable or innovation metrics that are at the unit level that look at what is our conversion rate. Are unit costs our success rate because when we can optimize for those types of those unit level metric. Those are the things that are going to make a big difference over time. All right, and this. So this creates thoughts, foreign fodder for conversation with you’re funders, potential funders. And also, of course, for foundations themselves to, you know, to try to rethink. I mean, maybe, you know, experiment yourselves for our foundation listeners with with an organization or two in some of these, some of these very different with with some of these different funding methods obviously more detail in the book, you gotta get the book. Let’s turn to the to the five a onesie three’s themselves. You talk a good bit about incentivizing around this around lean impact and the adoration and the testing and learning talk some about incentivizing. Sure, what i see is because innovation is hard in the social factor. I do see a lot of non-profits these days talking about innovation and wanting to innovate. And usually what ends up happening is that innovation is something that gets bolted on rather than built in on by bolted on. I mean, you know, organizations tend to, you know, either run a contest or a hackathon or a pilot, or they could, you know, hyre like an innovation person or a small innovation team, and these things are usually off to the side. They’re not part of the core operations of a non-profit, but something that they can kind of highlight in issue. Nice press releases about, but go on business as usual with ninety nine percent of what they’re doing. And so if if you really want teo, so what? The result is that we see all these kind of pilots and all these contests and flashy ideas, but very few of them making an appreciable difference over tonic. So if what we care about is getting to impact and transforming the culture and building a culture of innovation, we need to do that from the ground up. And i think that starts by establishing, you know, those ungracious goal something, you know, that we is measurable, that we continue to reference back to that we, you know, kind of reinforce, that is that is the north star for everyone in the organization to measure their own work against, you know, like vision spring to be. It asks the question. Is this going to get us to two and a half billion people. And so you need to start out with that goal because again, if you have a goal that is achievable with business as usual, there’s no reason for anyone to do anything different on then. Secondly, way need to create incentives that reinforced kruckel. Both reinforce the importance of taking risks and celebrate failure as well as reinforce progress towards that call, you know, on those innovation metrics. So if you’re able to reduce your costs, increase your success rate and so forth those air the metrics that really matter and get it into the goal on dso. Finding mechanisms that incentivize and incentives could be, you know, financial incentive. So they don’t have to be. They could be just you know what this leadership highlight when you have you know organization, you know, all all hands meeting. What? What do you highlight in your press releases? What are the you know who gets recognized? What are the things that you talk about in your weekly updates? So those incentives are incredibly important because they are what culture forms around. And then finally, once you have those goals and those incentives and you can look at where do you need to fill the gaps? In terms of talent? Do you need to bring in some other people who bring in a different skill set than you make might have the need to train your existing staff? Two. In some of these innovation techniques, that’s that’s sort of the last step into often. People make that the first and only step and don’t get a lot attraction. We gotta leave it there. Another book, another book you need. There’s so much more there you can follow and may she’s at and may its n n m e. I m not talking about ellie may from the beverly hillbillies and may so it’s not a y. It’s m e i on you find her book at and may dot com and may thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Pleasure next week. Consultant sarah olivieri with admonition, but also, of course, encouragement for small and midsize non-profits. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled twenty dahna slash pursuant we’re by wagner. Cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine right. Our creative producers. Claire meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer, but today it’s by chris shows, social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy and this music is by scots diner, brooklyn, new york do with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Buy-in. 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Nonprofit Radio for April 27, 2018: Big Impact

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Vivien Hoexter: Big Impact

Let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change. Vivien Hoexter is co-author of the book “Big Impact” and she shares lessons and reflections from the authors’ interviews for their book.

 

 

 

 

 


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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host uh feels so good to be back in the studio and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with pro doth ecosystem if you tried to infect me with the idea that you missed today’s show big impact let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change vivian hoexter is co author of the book big impact, and she shares lessons and reflections from interviews for her book. Attorneys take two my number one eighteen ntcdinosaur away we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna may slash pursuant radio bye weinger cpas guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com and by tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna em a slash tony tell us, oh, it feels so good to be back in the studio and to have a guest in the studio, she’s vivian hoexter she said, in your life, it’s unbelievable she’s right here during extra she’s, co author with linda hartley of the book big impact insights. And strategies from america’s non-profit leaders she’s a principal also with linda hartley of h two growth strategies. I’m gonna ask her if she does anything without linda hartley on if they’re married or they’re married to each other’s brothers or something, i don’t know. I’m also talking about this company name. I think you blew it, but we’ll get to that. So what do vivian and linda do in h to growth strategies? They advise non-profits and foundations in strategies, effective marketing and increasing revenues both earned and contributed. She also coaches executives. She was ceo of gilda’s club worldwide. No, them the red doors. Everybody knows them. They are at h two growth strategies. Dot com. And she is at the hoexter. Welcome, vivian hoexter. Thank you, tony it’s. Great to be here to pleasure. Pleasure to have you in the studio. Um, this book you you interviewed lots of people. We did hominy hominy non-profit leaders. Did you seek out near it? Turned out to be nearly fifty. Fifty. Okay, but the cover only has twenty one pictures. This is at the top twenty one of the fifty. Those air. The twenty one who are featured those eyes that how it works. Okay. Those are the ones i read about that air featured. Okay through. But then you had quotes from another thirty nine that’s that’s. Right. Ok, over how many years you you talk to these people. So the process from start to finish took us about two years. Yeah, the hole in the process of interviewing and then writing and editing and publishing the book. Now, how do we know that you’ve got the best fifty non-profit minds? How did you select out of the thousands that are available? Really? Well, i have to say it’s a highly was a highly subjective list. Your friends. Well, the ones that would meet you on your timetable. In some cases, we knew the leaders before we approach them. But that was a really not very many of them did we know. So we really wanted to get a kind of a sampling of folks from the different, if you will, the verticals in the nonprofit sector. Because if you look for books on leadership, you find hundreds of corporate books, but not very many non-profit books. And when we looked for non-profit books on leadership, we found one for christian leaders, one for jewish leaders, one for museum directors but not one for leaders who who work in any number of health, the environment, education. So we really trying to get a broad sample of missions on dh and segments? Okay, so you thought through this project we did, you know, this is not just slapdash. No. Okay, throwing together. All right, so the book is worthwhile. All right? Make sure we got the brightest minds were going to talking for an hour. I don’t want to be talking about advice from lackluster, you know, lackluster leaders. We we wouldn’t really wouldn’t dream. I don’t have any poor performers. No, no, no, no. Okay. Okay. Um, now you you mentioned before we went on air. You’re back in your neighbourhood. This is the west seventies. Very comfortable to you. Yes. Yes. I love for fifteen years. A life experiences, right? Yes. Within a few blocks. Yes. Yes. Like a trip down memory lane. All right. You said you said married, you say born know you weren’t born here? No. Married? No, no. Married. Oh, signore e i was single. And then i was married for the first. Time. And then i was divorced all within a few blocks of oil within a few blocks from here with studio in west seventy second street. Alright, cool. Any places? Look familiar. The bank on the corner chase bank that’s where you had to divide your accounts, it’s. Right. You gotta go in there and get them to separate your mind’s. A nice that’s, a that’s. A lovely memory. Okay. Any other? Any good places? Oh, there’s. Some wonderful shops on columbus avenue. Top shoes still here? Oh, yes. Here’s to shop. I used to shop it. Tip top there. Good. Good place to share. Next-gen shoe store. What are they? Are, by the way? Yes, i have a couple of shoes on the shoes of the boots i’m wearing today. The rain boots i’m wearing today. Tiptop shoes shoutout to them. All right. So that’s free free media for them. All right, let’s, go back to your book. So you break it down into like you have. You have a lot of interviews and you break it down into subjects. And then you and you and linda comment on, you know, like leadership and getting your house in order. And being persistent. It’s okay, so, uh, i was certainly going to give you a chance to talk about what what’s tops for you. Like what stands out for you, but i come first. Absolutely. Eyes your show. Thank you. Usually i have to say that, you know, i have to remind guests i appreciate you’re acknowledging that without prompting leadership. I like talking about that ship leadership section. Um, you get some advice from ah, a few people have been on the show. Actually, henry tim’s has has been on the show. I’m working on getting him back as he has a new book. You know it as new power. Yes. Because if i’m going to figure out what new power is, yes. And here how you can embrace it, own it. So we’re working on getting henry times, of course. He’s the i don’t know if it’s ceo whatever. Executive director of ninety second street y. So he says he wants you to build your your your your emotional intelligence as a part of leadership. Talk a little about being that humanists. Yeah. So? So you asked me what was what stood out for us or you said you were going to let me know about it. Comes if you if you can blend them together. That’s very talented. Right? So, in fact, the thing i don’t bother asking you later, the emotional intelligence of the leaders we spoke to was really, really striking tow us really striking. So and henry tim’s, i mean, almost to a person. And even if they admitted to not having been so emotionally intelligent when they were younger, they really, really focused on becoming that. And they clearly were they admitted when they were wrong, they were able to turn tragedy into something greater. They they were working on diversity, equity and inclusion, even if it was uncomfortable if they were white males, for example. Eso so they really they really exhibit kind of the into a great degree. The characteristics that you would want in a person you worked for. Yeah. Admitting you’re wrong. Yes. A bunch of people have touched on that. Yes, being having uncomfortable conversations. Ah, sharing with staff when you’re not confident in something. Yes. You know, thing you want to flush out about. Why that makes you a good leader. Well, i think it’s it makes you a good leader in the twenty first entry? I don’t think it probably did in the past when leadership was about command and control and right, so but but in the twenty first century where we’re now yeah, thiss current yeah, where information is so readily available to everyone. Ah, it’s really important to be honest and vulnerable with your staff because they’re they’re probably going to find out anyway, if you yeah, no, i’m sorry. I raised my she’s. So, like, i wanted to say the s o r scared her by raising my hand. Yeah. People think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. I think it’s actually sign of strength. Yeah. It’s a sign of confidence that you are willing to be vulnerable in front of staff and audience. Whatever, right, but that’s because you’re a modern man. Thank you. All right. And that we got to go for a break. You believe that? All right, hold that thought were gonna come back to that. That immediate thought we’d take a break. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst. Of fund-raising insights. Tony’s guests are expert, really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com. Now, let’s, go back to vivian hoexter. All right, so what was the last thing you said? It was a very poignant sentence. You said that? I said you’re that’s because you’re a modern man. That was it. Yes. That’s. Right. That’s, right. Thank you for refreshing my recollection. Yes. Okay. We’ll come back to that point a few times. Um, yeah, no, but i think vulnerability is a very good sign of confidence and strong leadership. I mean, in front of an audience or your staff or whatever, you know, it’s. A sign of strength and confidence, i think. Right? Right. And i think so too. And so do i. The leaders in the book, i would say not everybody believes that, right? And in an hour analysis, this is one of the things that really is a sign of emotional intelligence and of being a great leader for the modern, for the modern non-profit and i would argue corporate era. Okay. Excellent. And self awareness, too, i guess. That’s all rats wrapped up. Really in every yes, right? Yes, i do. I do. Okay. Um, so we’ll see if it’s, uh, exploring there’s some, uh, there’s. Some thoughts. About exploring life and work you you make some points about be an explorer there there’s some advice in the book about not following the path that others follow right out of college, you know, follow your own path, but but you and linda also have some commentary on being an explorer in life and work. Yes, so i think a lot of a number of our leaders said you should really make sure that when you’re in your twenties, you get out of the environment in which you grew up and go somewhere else. So if you are not able to go overseas, go to another state. If you live in the north, go to the south if you live in the south, go to the north because the experience of living with and working in another culture really is a huge benefit to developing that self awareness, the cultural awareness that is so important to being a leader in the global economy. How does this help you? I’m not. I’m not opposed to the idea, although i’d rather see more people from the south coming north than me from the north going south, but i know how is this how this help me, um, expand my my leadership capacity. So when one of the traits of leadership is to be able to put yourself in the other shoes, at least i think so. And if you take it, if you take yourself out of the environment that you’re most comfortable in that you grew up in and put yourself elsewhere physically, right, you’re going to be with people, even in the u s if you move from the south to the north, who are different from you, who think differently dressed differently, have different pastimes, and certainly if you go abroad, you’re going to be in a completely other culture. So i worked for eight years for f s intercultural program, american field service school, yes, so so i have a really bias on this one. I’ll admit that i that i think that the people who are best able to deal with others and persuade them inspire them, lead them lead change with them are those who have really gotten out of their comfort zones when they were early in their careers and go on elsewhere to live in work so they know how that feels to be uncomfortable. So so that encouraging others to do it in your work let’s test something that we haven’t done. Let’s try something different. I wanted we’re gonna explore a program that we have done, etcetera. You know what? That vulnerable vulnerability. You know what that feels like? Yes, yes, because you’ve lived it correct. You live that incredible discomfort of being a stranger in a foreign land. Someone else who’s been a guest on this show that you, uh you profile on dh interview is are you finger? We love our yes, i do too. Ceo of do something dot or ge i’ll take over from nancy lublin. And then now now also, of course, they’ve spun off t m i and she’s isn’t she the ceo of tm? No, no she’s only do something you know. She’s ceo seo of cm ilsen ceo and chief old person. Old person. Okay. Okay of both. Yeah, so she she admonishes may be too strong. I don’t know. She encourages mentor ship finding a mentor. Yes, finding a mentor when you’re getting started and being a mentor when you’re in the ceo ranks or as you’re working your way up oppcoll what’s what’s the value to the leader let go because we’re looking at from leadership perspective what’s the value to mentoring the value is number one you’re reminded where you came from and if you’re supervising younger employees, which you almost certainly are that it helps you to be helping someone who’s trying to get a job somewhere, it helps you to remember what it was like mom or empathy on dh on it also, honestly, to be a mentor feels good. It’s it’s ah it’s a way of passing the torch not passing the torch. Exactly it’s a way of paying it forward, if you will. On really making sure that the next generation of leaders has the same has has the benefit of your wisdom while you’re still alive. Yeah, yeah. All right. How about for people who are younger, what’s the value of having a mentor. So it really? You know, parents often tell their kids what not to do because they did it, and we’re sorry to do it. So you have to be a little careful. I think because you want to help young people avoid some of the mistakes that you made when you were early in your career, recognizing that they’re going to have to make some themselves. You can’t prevent them from making some, but if you can point the way and if you can help them build their networks, which we all know mean, networks are just critic critical for growing up. So if you want, if you want to continue in your career, you need tohave ah, robust professional network. Yes, yes, and a strong and powerful mentor who has lots of relationships from having been in the field for a long time. And if that person is generous and willing to share some of those relationships with you and introduce you to people that’s, one of the greatest value used in mentor ship should you pursue a mentor? So now i’m looking at it from the person younger in there non-profit career who’s in your organization or no, you should really go outside it’s kind of hard to open up to somebody because they’d be senior to you, right? That’s? That seems a little counterproductive. Yeah, i think it. You really have. Tio. If you want an authentic mentor relationship, you have to look outside organization. Um, any what? Would you like to say now that now’s your chance now, it’s all you saw your chance, spotlight is on you. But leadership, anything you want to you want to add about leadership that i didn’t didn’t strike me? No, i think what i want to do is talk a little bit about what happened after we did the interviews, right? Because we had all of this material, right? And from having talked to nearly fifty people and there’s a fifty or nearly fifty, now you’re hitting on your head now is forty seven, but nearly fifty sounds, you know, more rounder, right? Yeah, i know, but originally we sent fifty no it’s, not fifty it’s forty six, forty seven, forty seven near severely restructure precision. Provoc absolutely, you read twenty one profiles in the book, which is which are excellent, and then you’ll get you’ll get quotes from an additional um however many eighteen, twenty, twenty, twenty eight people. Oh, that would be forty, maybe forty nine, twenty six people. All right, let’s. Keep it straight on non-profit radio. Yeah, absolutely. Don’t let the clothes confuse you. No. Nor the guest either. Okay, so the so we had all this material, this wonderful material, and we and we knew the book was about leadership because that’s what we set out, that the questions that we asked really were about leadership, but we thought, oh, go boy, the book has to be about something mohr than just leadership. And so what we discovered is that the book is really about the good news social change, it’s about the how to make lasting positive social change because many of the leaders we spoke with are actually doing that every day, making positive social change, often without a lot of fanfare, because it’s the non-profit sector and no one has the money, the advertising budget that a coca cola or pepsi has on dso. So we wanted to do a couple things. We wanted people to recognize that in a time when there’s lots of not so good stuff happening, that there actually is a lot of a lot of good stuff happening. We wanted more people to know about that good stuff. Ah, and we wanted people to be able tto learn from the steps that these leaders outlined for us that became the principles the seven principles that bracket the book. We wanted people to be able to learn from that to make change in their own communities, let you know. I mean, if if they’re working in their own communities, it could be their states, their countries. But the idea is that there’s practical knowledge to be gained here as well as sort of principals. And what have you? Yeah, no. And, you know, i like to details. I mean, that’s. Why? You know, like, you know, like, find a mentor. Yes. You mentor? Yes. No. Up your game in. Ah, in emotional intelligence, etcetera. Yeah. All right. Um, could we, uh i’d like to ah, talk about getting your house in order in your own organization, upto up to where it should be, right? Principle number two yeah, why don’t you? Why don’t you overviewing that on dh? Why it’s important to walk the walk? And and then, you know, i’ll ask you, i ask you something that stuck out for me chur so what? What our leaders told us and we really pretty much knew this already. So it was great to have all these leaders saying it is that if your organization is really functional and and a good place to work in all the dimensions of what that means, then it’s going to be much easier for you, for your organization to be innovative and to have employees who stay in the organization rather than move on so quickly. Eso you’ll get good, organise a, you’ll get good institutional memory and it’ll just be easier to make the change that that you wish to make. That to achieve your mission, it’ll be easier and more effective. Ah, so and again, you know, getting your own house in order, it means a lot of things, right? So we have a sort of a selective list. You could list many, many, many things that a leader should do to make sure that his or her house is in order. But some of them include, and this is this is kind of dahna a stereotype recruit talented, passionate employees. Ah, and then retain them. Ah, make sure you have a number two. Even if that person is not the obvious successor to you. Ah, those kinds of things, right. So in the kind of the human resource is sphere, right? We thought these were really, really important. Make sure that that you’re working on diversity, equity and inclusion. This is a ah something that all of our leaders are focused on on as a routine part of there. There there work it’s, not sam paine, no campaign for divers. So it’s just ongoing, always evolving it’s always part of their hiring and retaining. Yes, this is another thing that really struck us about about what the leaders were saying is that they had you had to start somewhere when if you’re working on diversity, equity and inclusion, and usually you had to start at the top, you know the ceo to be the one to be the catalyst for it. But then you you could never stop. Ah, you and you had to keep addressing it from different angles and different levels of the organization, and that was something of a surprise to us. One of the people suggest hiring people that are smarter than you and including for your board, and he says, i don’t remember who it is but he says everybody around him is smarter than him and again, including board again, you know, that’s that goes back to vulnerability. I mean, obviously these things overlap, but, you know, getting talented people who fill gaps, that of knowledge that you and the institution don’t have. Yes, it takes a lot of humility t be able to really do that, you know, everybody says, i have to say it, but it is much harder to do in practice. You really have to be vulnerable and humble to be able to admit that you don’t have all the skills and you certainly don’t have a lock on the intelligence. Ah, and that seems to be it seemed to us to us to be a theme you mentioned the hiring and terror this one i do know came from tara berry, ceo of national costume. Kartik latto court appointed special advocates, and it was interesting, very poignant that she herself was a foster child. I did some training for a casa in aa in albuquerque, new mexico, someplace many years ago. It’s, um, plan giving training. She likes the idea of having a siri’s of interviews to demonstrate a candidate’s commitment. We thought that was brilliant. You’re dragging them through? Yeah, yeah. You know, you keep showing up. If you have the patience for this you can tolerate. Our work? Yes, yes. I thought that was really, really interesting. It’s, part of the hyre slowly fire quickly, right? But it takes hyre slowly to a whole new level right where that you should you keep creating excuses for the person to come back? Of course, it’s of course you planned it out, right? But they come and they talk to one person and then they come back and they get a tour, and then they come back and they talked to another person. Then they come back and talk to a volunteer. Or or and and the idea is that if they and particularly the young person, that if they have the patients to stay with you through a process that takes a couple of months, right? Oh, interesting. Yeah, there are a few weeks a few months that that this that this could really weed out some of the young people who just need a job and don’t have any interest in your mission and really have no interest in the nonprofit sector. They’ll just they’ll just drop it that i can’t tolerate that right’s takes too long. Okay, um, somebody talks about it. May have been you and linda autonomy in decision making, giving employees autonomy authority to make decisions. So so that’s another s o u you know, now you’ve got the talented, passionate employees right? And you want to keep them on. One of the best ways to keep them is to give them autonomy and shale. Pollack how sarrantonio who runs the bank street college of education was most articulate. I thought about this idea he talks about having been a a noces stint principal in a high school in queens doesn’t really matter on dh his boss was really, really clear with him about where they were meeting point a, where they want, where he wanted him to get to meeting point b, but giving him great latitude and how to get from point a to point b with point b again being very clearly defined with measurable, with metrics and and so on. And i think if you think about bright people, they tend not all of them, but they tend to want to try things they don’t want to be told what to do all the time. They really want to have the space to make decisions themselves and this. Is what this is, what it is is meant by having having autonomy in this in this sense and it’s a really again it’s really, really great thing to aspire to it’s harder to do. Yeah, well, you have to have a lot of faith in the people you have input you have hired, you have to be willing to delegate and give degrees of freedom, not micromanage, right and and accept failure because everybody’s not going to make it to point b, you know, they’re gonna get derailed sometimes all those things, i mean, those right, those air all difficult, but but you tell me essential for growth rate for the organisation, growth on individuals? Absolutely, and the idea being that you’re not it’s, not like you’re not going to check in with them between points and be right, you know, so that if things were really going awry, you’re going to know it pretty early on. But, yes, that’s the idea is that autonomy is a critical part of growing up azaz, an employee and executive it’s it’s, tom tom dent, a ceo of hugh mentum who says, take work seriously, not yourself, right? More humility, more vulnerability. Well, yes. And allowing laughter. Oh, hi. Laughter not around workplace. Yeah, laughter in the workplace on dh maybe not just laughter around you, but sometimes laughter at you. You know, you make a a silly statement or, you know, think about it really takes a lot of emotional intelligence to be able to allow people to laugh with you slash at you. It’s. Hard to imagine that in an office. Well, i i’ve actually been in on the rail. Where? It’s, why, it’s? Why i’m not an employee anymore? Maybe i put the wrong places. I would be a terrible employee now i’m so autonomous i would shoot myself in the interview just now. Neo-sage but, yeah, no, i i’m thinking of the two ceos. Yeah, there was no yeah, now they would not have tolerated that, but those were the nineties to, um yeah, i mean, just yeah, don’t just just just be personable. I mean, just be a person nobody expects in this culture. We don’t we don’t expect perfection from our from our leaders know well, maybe some people do, but what we’re arguing that you that you don’t need to and that you shouldn’t okay? Okay, let’s, take a let’s. Take another break. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit. Radio. Twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti. Now time for tony take, too, but we’re going to do this. We don’t work this awkward drop in right now. I’m a safe too. Looked our founder of good link, goodling dot com non-profits connect with businesses that advanced their missions. When i want the best connections i listen to non-profit radio. Thank you. Receive on. I want to give a shout out tio good link it’s with with a c good link dot com it’s a new marketplace where non-profits meet vendor’s no cost to you as the non-profit it’s. Like a bridge to the products and services you need it’s new and i’m trying to help them get started. So see what you think about that good link dot com. Check them out on my tony. Stay too is my number one takeaway from non-profit technology conference, which was two weeks ago in new orleans. Because if i tell you what the number one takeaway is on you not watch the video, which, as all videos are, is that tony martignetti dahna at least all the worthwhile ones. At twenty martignetti dot com, we captured thirty interviews over the two and a half days sixty guests on dh there’s one top thing that hit me. Vivian actually touched on it. But that is all i am permitted to say at this time. Otherwise you’re not gonna go to tony martignetti dot com and watch the video for my number one takeaway from these thirty interviews that i did, it involves a ceo and that’s as far as i’m willing to go. All right, check out the video. Tony martignetti dot com. We got to live with their love. This is the time. Well, it comes whenever i want it’s. Like springstead says she acknowledged without without prompting it’s. My show let’s. See where we going? Staten island, new york starting local staten island, new york shoutout, new york, new york. Multiple new york. But i live in new york city. Manhattan, new york, new york. Multiple staten island. Shut out to you, rosedale, new york. Rosedale is queens, right? And fresh matter was new york. Also queens. Awesome. And beverly beverly. My guest. Beverly. Um, i guess vivian mentioned queens. You you mentioned queens. You have any of you have any friends or family in rosedale? Fresh meadows? I’d you know? Okay, well, they’re listening. Shut out. Live listen, love teo cleans and going a little further west a little bit. We’ve got salt lake city so, like city, utah, slc and going up north from here we got somerville, mass. Um and then going abroad, we’ve got let’s cross the border further north woodbridge, ontario live listener love to you and going further east would be looks like munich. Germany is next. Guten ta ge to germany and then continuing our voyage east. We have tuck out suki, japan could each awhile talk itsuki live ilsen love to you, couldn’t you and ah, and then well, maybe i went too far east cause then we got to come back middle east. We got tehran, iran and then we go up north moscow, russia. I’m not sure moscow’s been with us live listener love to you moscow um and those are our live listeners so far. Oh, no. I missed tampa, florida. We should’ve gone south. Tampa live. Listen, i’d love to you. And then, of course, we got to the podcast pleasantries. Because that’s, where the over twelve thousand people are listening on, whatever device, whatever time pleasantries to you, i’m very, very grateful that you are podcast listeners are vast? Majority catch us on itunes and then it goes way down like that’s like eighty nine percent of something let’s on itunes and then number two is stitcher, like eight percent or something vast difference between one and two, and then lots of smaller podcast platforms were on pod bay player pod player. Okay, however, you’re getting us pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners throughout the country, grateful that your station has us on their roster wherever, whatever day our part we’re in, i’m grateful to them and i’m grateful to you listening on terrestrial am fm radio never let am fm die it’s so personal i love am fm. I use that as a model for the show. There’s a couple of favorite shows that i used to listen to that i aspire to sound like hyre. Yes, i love am fm radio. Affections to the affiliate listeners. Thank you, vivian hoexter for obliging me while i do that. Thank everybody. Vivian. Of course. Co author of the book with linda hartley. Big impact there are consultancy is h two growth strategies. Dot com. Yeah. So i have someone i want to ask you about. I think you blew it the company name age to grow. It should be a tsh to grow. You should stop hte and then you get the water. You don’t get the h two girl, i get the h two hoexter and hartley, i get that it’s to grow, we should be h to grow and then we should feed your roots. We water your leaves. I don’t you know you could teach to grow. Oh, wow. Well, we’ll have to left looking taken should be h to grow. Yeah, you’d be surprised by how difficult it is. Or maybe you wouldn’t be to get earl that’s not taken twenty martignetti dot com was not teo wasn’t is not very popular. Now i got to compete with the martignetti liquor dynasty up in the boston massachusetts era. You said you that you told me earlier you vacation in cape cod. God, do you know the martignetti liquor dynasty? A liquor stores, maybe? All right, there, there, up there, you know, they’re they’re they’re supermarkets of liquor, maybe. Or maybe our listeners. A lot of the settlers in somerville, mass they know them, but these air supermarkets, not just little corner stores, and but i got tony martignetti dot com. I don’t know. Maybe they don’t have any tony’s. I don’t know. I couldn’t get martignetti dot com. They have that liquor barons. Okay, um, it was also like going, oh, gilda’s club. Yeah, the red doors? Yes. You were ceo of guilt for years. I wass and it’s a wonderful organization. It’s, now part of the wellness community, emerged with the wellness community after i left at the time, we had maybe drive it into the ground, did it, and then that’s where they murdered. No, no, no, no. Don’t do that. Okay. There there were a million inference. You made the inference available. I want to say i wanted to feel. Yeah, okay, go for it. Okay, so there were about thirty guilders clubs throughout north america, and i have to visit everyone on dh. We inherited an organization where thie founder and principal funder was was beginning to not want to be the sole supporter of the organisation any longer. Okay? And so we had to build the board, and i have a board that would really contribute and fundraisers. Significant amount. And we weigh doubled the revenue. In the time i was there, we developed. Yeah, it was. It was a good it’s. A wonderful organization, you know? It provides emotional and social support for people with cancer, their families and friends. Yes, families and friends, too. I thought it was just for the cancer patient survivor now not true, okay. Let’s. See, what would you like to talk about? I have other topics are good. But what strikes you about all these forty seven interviews? What? What moves you the most? It was inspiring to talk to these leaders. Inspiration, that’s. One of things i want to talk about. All right. It’s. Really, really inspiring. I mean, teo, be able, you know, we asked some fairly intimate questions like what’s the what’s, the worst and best thing that’s ever happened to you in your life. And what did you mean, what’s your definition of happiness? Yes. You know all these interviews? Face-to-face many of them were face-to-face virality of them were my phone. They tried to do for way tried to face-to-face, yes, but even even on the phone, right, these and and in many in most instances, in some instances, thie leaders had asked to see the questions beforehand, but in some instances they had not seen them, so they were really kind of we got there sort of their raw, fresh first response to some of these questions. And it really the way that many of them have turned tragedy into achievement into empathy into mission. It’s really? You mentioned tara peri at the national casa on dh. You know leon botstein at bard college, whose daughter was killed when she was seven years old, crossing the street to get to the bus. Aunt, he you know, that was early on in his time a bard. And he said, you know, his first impulse was to throw himself out the window. But what he did was he built, barred into really a force to be reckoned with, and and highly the innovative place, you know, they were the first to teach in. Prisons are among the first they were they haven’t this early college which they now have not just in the us, but around the world where kids can earn associate degrees in there four years of high school. Ah, and so is highly innovative place on dh he so i one has to believe right that he took that tragedy and sort of turned that took that anger, energy, whatever, and put it into building barred into the institution that is for children, i mean, well, not for chilled, but for for follow-up kottler college students. But you know that his child never got to be. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So so it’s really was really inspiring to to hear this tio here, that wisdom and to hear how willing these the leaders were to share with us. So that was another thing that surprised us. We knew a few of them before, but most of them we didn’t know and and we only had i would say, of all the people we asked, we only had one or two turn downs, and that was a very, you know, like high level incredibly busy ceo let’s not focus on the one or two. No, no, no, no. But my point is that they’re going to share, willing to share. And i think partially again because people don’t ask non-profit leaders a lot about their strategies and their insights. They ask corporate leaders right? Not non-profit leaders, so to be able to talk about what was important to them and how they’d gotten to where they are and what they see for the future was really, really felt good to them. Ah, and and we’re hopeful that the people who read the book will want to learn more about some of these organizations and possibly support them. At least let it certainly learned and get inspired by the book. Get the book for pete’s sake. It sze called big impact. Um, just get the thing, you know, we can’t we can’t cover it all in an hour. Um, now no, she she endorses. No, certainly not persistence. Another. Another topic you got you to talk about? Um, somebody says somebody says, oh, this is evan wolfson, president of freedom to marry. You cannot win every battle but lose forward. What you talking about? What he’s saying for? So for example, so freedom to marry was one of the key organizations in winning legalization of gay marriage equality. And evan worked on this for thirty two years from the time he wrote his law school thesis about it. And i have to say, he evan is brilliant on dh. He described to us some of the strategies that freedom to marry and its coalition used to win gay marriage. And when he talks about losing forward, want an example of that is going to the south and having and having activity campaigns in the south, even though he knew they knew it would be much more difficulty to get people in the south to really before gay marriage. But they knew they had to engage with the people in the south. They had to engage all over the country. Ah. And the same is true. You know, in certain cultures, arm or conservative, like the latino culture on they engage. They had they had campaigns with latinos. They had campaigns with african americans on dh. They just kept pushing forward, even though again, they knew that they weren’t going to win. Everybody’s. They were going to win all hearts and minds. Right on lee only enough to make it happen. So there’s the inspiration when he’s, he worked on this for over thirty years with his law school thesis. Yes. Excuse me. And, you know, there’s a there’s a someone who’s been on the show. Paul low, big wrote a book called the impossible will take a little while. You know, you have to stay with you. Somebody, someone of one of the people you you interview says that a profound change takes time. Yeah, that might have been you and linda said that a profound change takes time. But, you know, that’s part of the inspiration mean that to me, that which feeding that is the the vision that the leader brings to the organization and and the incremental steps toward that vision, whether it’s eliminating poverty, you know, in in metropolitan boston, you know, whatever it is that commitment to vision and then and bringing people together, who so loved, who support that vision and are willing to work at it for thirty years on dh, celebrate the small victories, right? And then really be good at doing that celebrate the small victories and making sure that your people are taking care of themselves so that they don’t get burnt out life balance. Yeah, one of your i think it’s, i have a bill. Bill uhlfelder yes, talks about life balance and says, if you’re if you’re waiting to get it kind of connected your family over vacations and sabbaticals, you know you’re you’re losing your family. Yes, balance, right? Yes. Is essential for persistence. Well, it is. It is. So this is one where our leaders were sort of all over the map. Okay? Most of them were striving for work. Life balance, right? Most of them. And then a few were unapologetically workaholic. And one said there’s. No such thing as work-life balance there’s. Just life and work is a part of it. That was larry kramer at the william and flora hewlett foundation. Life is a part of it. All right. That’s fair. That’s? Yes. That’s. A decent balance, right? I objective. Yes. Yeah. I think i think larry works pretty hard. Okay. Well, yeah. Um, it’s something it’s a life practice? Absolutely. I’m i’m sort of joking. Yes, way. We believe that work life balance is essential, particularly when you’re working on seemingly intractable problems that will take a while to solve. Impossible will take a little while. All right, we got a car last break. Okay. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests. Check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark. Yeah, insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff. They need something which is simple and fast. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. All right, now, let’s, go back to vivian hoexter. Yeah, i get it animated and then bring it back down. What a talent on what a talent unfortunate that one took prompting. Um, okay, so yes, we’re striving for balance. It’s a life’s practice. Don’t give it up. I mean, don’tjust. Don’t just surrender and say my family’s got a week. No, i loved ones have to wait. My friends, even friends go to your go to college reunion now and then high school reunion now and then connect. Yes. Okay. Anything what you want say that? Yes, like you’re exhausted. It it’s just essential, right? It’s, it’s essential. But both linda and i believe strongly in it. I was just at a college reunion last weekend. Pittsburgh, carnegie mellon ah, opportunity. Bunch of guys got together so it’s almost like it’s on my mind and plus, i’m always admonishing, i probably am. I’m not just encouraging. I probably i’m admonishing that’s. I think that’s the right word listeners through the show and videos like help sometimes and wag my finger in a video. Take time for yourself. You know, if you want to give your in e-giving profession if you want to give effectively, i think you have to take yes. And that taking is being selfish and taking time yourself and your family and sometimes even just for yourself, like quiet solitude kind of time if you want to give, i believe you have to take yes, yes. And all too often i think in non-profits the feeling there’s a grateful even feeling of intensity about having to accomplish the mission so it’s hard to do that to take the time that is essential you got and you got to make the time, right? Yeah. Zach’s going to find it? I can never find the time. Yeah, well, time is not going to tap you on the shoulder and say, here i am you found me. You gotta affirmatively make the time. Yes, yes. Don’t keep trying to find it it’s not going it’s not going to make itself apparent to, you know, and it will be uncomfortable at first to take the time. You know things right the first time. You may be the first half dozen time abandoning ship. Yeah. How we’re gonna get along without? Yeah, well, you need to have the humility to recognize that they can write. All right, see how this all fits together. Just get the book for god’s sake. It so it all fits together. Um, okay. You mentioned larry kramer, hewlett foundation. Did you yet has it? He says relationships matter in this in this persistence and drive toward mission, you know, relationships talk about relationships. So what larry is saying, it actually is that for him life is all about relationships, it’s more than just the mission, right? You know, it is the mission, but to him it’s, it’s, that’s what that’s, what it’s about? And i think it’s particularly important in the nonprofit world because so many of the missions of the organizations that we work in our have social missions right there, they’re about either caring for people are teaching people to care for themselves or and so it’s really, really important to be able to relate well to people because there’s also the fact that in the nonprofit sector you can’t play p pent can’t pay people top dollar. Ah, and so there have to be there have to be other benefits toe working inside a non-profit and one of those is having caring relationships with the people you work with and also organizational relationships. Yes, partnering type of yes, flush out that level because these days, right? So number one funders like partnerships, increasingly and, you know, we have lots and lots of non-profits in this country, over a million of them, and maybe a few too many on the a lot of the missions of those organizations are complimentary on dh, so i think it’s really incumbent on organizations to make strategic partnerships a priority. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s critical. Not on ly because funding is limited because funders like partnerships, but because you get more done, yeah, for less money. Yeah. There’s a synergy. Yes, we’ve had guests on talking about how to find the right partners. Get your board buy-in the board, the board process of formal partnerships and things. Yes. All right, so explore those, you know, think about those. So i’m going to turn back to you let’s talk about something that interests you in the book that we haven’t talked about yet. Great, you know, and it gets all your book, she’s she’s, i feel i feel bad for the guests who bring notes or what? She’s in that vivian doesn’t know what she’s been clutching her book, but they never get a chance to read the notes they bring them. They feel security. I tell them they won’t have time. They hold the notes anyway, and then they never get a chance to look at them. Because, you know, because we’re having a conversation, so would you. Would you find you? You peruse your table of contents? Yes, i did. I did. So i i want to go back to evan wolfson because i i really think that if you read the interview with levon welchlin mary-jo yes, that that interview is kind of a lesson in how to make social change. Evan is the on ly one of the forty seven leaders who has accomplished his mission completely and disbanded his organization. That’s that’s telling that never happens. That’s what he’s done usually organizations expand to find a new mission. So evan now is a high level advisor to other countries around the world that where people are trying to get gay marriage legalized. And he also consults to some. I think now he’s consulting to immigration organizations in this country to try to help them. But he no longer has an organisation himself. And i think his the the understanding how freedom to marry and its coalitions achieved the mission is it’s really instructive it’s really a it’s like a primer in how to make positive social change? Because he did, he did all of it. They got he got really clear about the goal. That’s one of the principles and learned howto articulated persuasively and specifically at a certain point, learned that if you made it about the legal aspect of of gay marriage in the public eye, it was not going to be as effective as if you talked about giving people make having people be ableto love who they wanted to love. At a certain point in the campaign, they really switched the way they talked about gay marriage, and that was really critical to it becoming possible. And then another principle is build. So you have to campaign on many fronts you haven’t. Then you have to build broad based coalition let’s. Talk about the many fronts. That’s a section of the book, so the the idea is that you and really this is sort of the partnership idea is part of part of this that you can’t do it alone and that if you’re not striving to influence the private sector and government, which are the two dominant sectors in our economy, then you’re really not going to make lasting social change, and so you have to work with those sectors. You have to learn how to talk to those sectors on dh, on dh you have to be working on lots of different levels all at once, because otherwise it’s not going to happen on and that includes working with faith based organizations, which some people, some organizations know how to do, and others don’t. But and again, leon botstein at bard makes a really, really interesting point about this. He says that somehow a lot of us, particularly on the coast, i guess, have sort of decided that faith based organizations are not important any more that, you know, because of the increasing secularization of our society, that we don’t need to worry about them. But the truth is that they’re very particularly in the middle of the country, so that maybe in some parts of a very powerful, in vast parts of right, very, very powerful on dh. We. And if you really want to make social change in your community, you’re going to have to work with those organizations because they’re often the ones that are already working on it, right? Yeah. They have, they have the soup kitchen, they have the homeless shelter, you know, they’re they’re already actively engaged in making change or taking care of the people in their communities. And so you really have to reach out to them. And they’re in the community there. Yes, there the communities. They know the local leaders, whether they’re the official leaders of the unofficial leaders, if you want to work in yeah, you want make real change and work in the grassroots. You need to know who the unofficial leaders are direct in the community. Yes. And your faith based the metoo the organization’s know that stuff? Yes, there, there they’ve been. They’ve been there for decades and generations. Yes. Okay, um yeah. So you ah here’s, sort of where we just have a couple minutes left together. What what struck you about some of the questions? You got answers. You got to the question. Ah, you asked everybody. How do you define happiness? So, you know, it’s, a that’s, a highly personal question, right in the sense, in the sense that it’s different for for everyone and some of our leaders, because their lives are so frenetic, all they want is peace and quiet to them. That’s happiness, but that’s rygel yeah, yeah on dh then, for some it’s being with their families and, you know, spending time with the people they love. Ah, and, you know, interestingly, when we had not a lot of them said, you know, happiness is sitting at my desk for twelve hours a day for a lot of money or a lot of no, no, that not this group, not this, you know, and again that’s part of the emotional intelligence, right isn’t understanding what really makes life worth living, which is relationships and meaningful work and all of those things. Six okay, um, let’s see, what do you love about the work you’re doing? Well, i’ve always been mission driven, tonia, you know, i got an mba and i tried to work in the corporate world, but i wasn’t happy and lord and taylor, i was with the fire and the fire lord, and i was that i was at best foods is a problem manager didn’t work no, no. And so what really makes me happy is is helping to make positive change in the world. I mean, that’s and helping the underdog. I’ve always wanted to help the underdog leave it there. All right, you she’s vivian hoexter get the book for god’s sake. It’s called big impact insights and strategies from america’s big impact inside insights and stories who wrote strategies? I needed an intern to blame for this insights and stories from america’s non-profit leaders. If i had an intern, they’d be fired, if any more to recommend anybody. Let me know next week the first release of the ntcdinosaur provoc technology conference interviews thirty of them coming and next week is may already. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio weather cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com until those credit card payment processing, you’re passive long term revenue stream tony dot mm slash tony tell us. Our creative producer, is claire meyerhoff. Family roots is a line producer. Thie shows social media is by susan chavez. Our music is by scott stein of brooklyn. With me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving nothing. Cubine hi, i am dr tranquility of dr tranquility pr, successfully meeting the media needs of the wellness community as an expert myself for major mainstream media, radio, tv and french magazines. I now have. L’ve you book interviews for broadcast radio, podcast, television and i pay tv as well as many, many magazines reach me to one to nine to zero one six zero three me. Hey, are you feeling unhappy with your body, shape or size? Ever feel out of control with food? I’m elizabeth from nourish the soul, and on the show you will uncover the route to these imbalances and discover a permanent solution toe having a healthy relationship to food and your body. Join us every thursday morning at eleven a, m eastern time on talk radio dot. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? Then you’re in for a treat. This is michael dulled, your host on talking alternative dot com. I’ve been professionally writing comic books, screenplays and music articles from fifteen years. 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Nonprofit Radio for July 14, 2017: Social Change Anytime Everywhere, Part Deux

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Amy Sample Ward: Social Change Anytime Everywhere, Part Deux

Amy Sample Ward

We pick up where we left off last week with Amy Sample Ward, discussing her book, “Social Change Anytime Everywhere.” We’re covering your fundraising plan: scheduling; testing; staffing; budgeting; and tips for your website campaign. Amy is our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN). Her dad Tim joins in to share what it’s like to raise a social media scientist.

 

 


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Oppcoll no. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. The three fiftieth show is coming up july twenty eighth, two more weeks, the three fiftieth and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with dexter okla nation if i saw that you missed today’s show social change anytime, everywhere parte do we pick up where we left off last week with amy? Sample wards book social change anytime everywhere covering your fund-raising plan scheduling, testing, staffing, budgeting and tips for your website. Campaign amy’s dad tim joins in to explain what it was like to raise a social media scientist, and this originally aired on april nineteenth twenty thirteen on tony take two thank you, responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here’s amy sample ward with her book social change, anytime everywhere part do i’m always pleased to welcome amy sample ward to the studio she’s membership director at non-profit technology network and ten, as i said her most recent co authored book social change anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement the forward is by two time guest of this show, craig amar, the founder of craig’s listing craigconnects no, sorry work that in there that he’s been on the show twice her blogged is amy sample, ward dot or ge and she’s at amy r s ward on twitter. Welcome back, kayman sample work. Thank you for having me back. It’s. Always a pleasure. Um, i guess my one of my first my first question is on the cover of this book the word’s, any time and everywhere. I’m showing her the cover now to remind her of the are separated. But they are not hyphenated. Why? Why aren’t they hyphenated the way proper english would be any hyphen time? Because they’re in different lines and every hyphen. Where where is the copy editing on this? On this cover? Yep. I don’t think i’m gonna let you just go by with this job. It’s it’s apparently thie design aesthetic. Okay, which you had no control over, i guess. Okay. Okay. I think this should be hyphen. I mean, i think these things are important in in language. All right. But it helps you enunciate the title very well. Any time, every right. Trying to learn how to spell her. You would think that any time was two different words. And and it’s, not it’s, not everywhere is not two different words. It’s. True. Okay, um let’s. Ah, i like to reflect a little bit. Okay, we talk all the time about online engagement, teo. And with what’s been happening this week, if you are engaged online on your charity, does nothing at all related to anything around violence or maybe victim or family support or politics of guns. Your charity has nothing to do with any of that. How do you respond? What do you do online, too? Let people know that you’re you’re conscious of what happens in the world. That’s outside your own. Sure, i think i mean first i would say i understand the argument of, you know, we don’t work on the politics of gun issues. However, you probably work with people and ultimately in any crisis or disaster, people are involved, you know, and reminding your own staff that it’s not just about bombs or terrorism. This is still about people and treating whatever response, whatever communication you have next in that light that there are people involved in this, i think helps you just take the right tone regardless of where you go next, because you’re then being responsive to what if it was you, you know, you would want someone to treat you or your city or your issue like people were involved. Next it’s a great opportunity to go check any scheduled messages you have any tweets or facebook post that air maybe already scheduled about something else. Also, look at your content calendar. You know where we planning on sending out an email appeal this week? That was, you know, using the story of this great little kid, and now maybe we don’t want to do that story or maybe not that message it all this week, you know, not that you have to completely shut down every organization didn’t stop this week, but trying to be responsive, teo, the fact that, you know, even in your own goals, you’re probably not going to get the analytics or the metrics you wanted, you know, no one’s going to be clicking through that email anyway, if that’s not what’s on their mind so looking at not just scheduled tweets, but what’s on your what’s scheduled to go up on your block what’s scheduled to go out and email looking at all of that immediately so that you can either put things on hold, readjust change, maybe which story was going to be in a newsletter? You know, there’s things like print ads or direct mail that that that’s already out there, you know? But people also don’t look at the newspaper and think, i can’t believe that this ad ran like because in our minds, we know that that’s not like a real time media. We know that that’s program six weeks in it, right? Exactly, but when you see something go up on twitter, you know, when you everyone else is just watching twitter for news updates it it really does feel a little bit more careless because they know that you let it happen. You know, you could have changed that tweet. We talk a lot about engaging with people online not so dissimilar lee from the way we engage with people face to face, you know? And when when i saw you earlier today, we you know i told you that i was feeling raw and sensitive and you know, that was that was really basically after right after hello, yeah, so, you know, i’m doing that in it, and i’m sure i’ll do that with friends. I meet for dinner tonight. It’s not it’s, not unlike online when you can have a conversation about this, or at least share your feelings when it really oppcoll just doesn’t deal with your data your day to day world, right? It’s it’s never going toe i mean, i don’t want to say never as if any statement could ever be, you know, all all encompassing, but for the most part, it’s not going to hurt your organization to say something like our hearts are going out to the victims and here’s a link to resource is or hears, you know, the the google spreadsheet that was created to help, you know, people say i’ve found this person or this person is missing, you know, like that it doesn’t hurt your brand, it doesn’t hurt your cause even though you might work on a totally separate mission to say, hey, we know this is happening and we want to make sure that we’re one more post in your facebook stream. That’s pointing to resource is instead of to something else. Okay, excellent. Well, we’re going to pick up with where you and i left off last month. It was march fifteenth with the fund-raising plan. We have just met and a half or so before we go away for a couple of a couple minutes, why don’t you just tease a little bit? Share? What? What we might be talking about with respect to a fund-raising plan. Sure. I think last time we talked kind about the components of the plan and this time we can get and i think to the nitty gritty, a little bit more like what does a be testing really look like in a campaign? Especially in real time? How do you figure out what’s working and keep kind of iterating as you’re in the middle of the campaign? And then also, what does that look like for your organization? Who’s involved once the campaign is live, is it just that development director or other staff? You know, playing into that campaign on then? Even what does it look like on online? What is what? Is your website need to do to be responsive to the campaign? Okay, maybe testing? Yeah, i don’t i’m not sure that that really qualifies for jargon jail. I’m not really feeling like putting buy-in george in jail today, and it probably doesn’t even really qualified. But well, why don’t you just explain what a be testing is? Sure. So for the most part, you could test everything on your website just by saying, well, it’s, their people are clicking on it, they like it, but it’s a little bit more scientifically valid. If you say have two buttons and people when they came to your website, they’re being presented with one of two buttons, and then you can just leave it up for a few days and say, gosh, anyone that saw the blue button clicked three times more than anyone that saw the red button, for example, so it’s just changing one component at a time with two versions so that you can figure out which works better and then start changing the next thing. And you’re directing people to both of them? Yes, simultaneously. Yep, i guess. Randomly, exactly. Okay. And you? You have an excellent example. In the book about the the clinton bush haiti fund, and we’ll talk a little about that. Ok, we go away for a couple seconds. When we come back, amy and i will continue this conversation about about her book and and your fund-raising plan stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, not too many live listeners today, i’m suspecting that a lot of people are if they’re online, they’re looking at cnn or some other some other news source that they trust. But i will say, live listener love out too. Forest grove, oregon and new bern, north carolina also since you taiwan ni hao and for korea, we have listeners in seoul and young in korea on yo haserot glad that you’re very glad, very glad that you’re with us. Thank you. Um okay, kayman sample word let’s talk about some of these details of of a be testing. What does this look like? Well, you can do it. I mean, even though we used the example before of your website, you can do it on anything. You know, you could do it in an email. Newsletters on little micro sites, it’s. Just a page essentially, whatever. Wherever you’re trying to put content out, you could do a be testing. So it could mean different photos, different buttons that text it could also mean having a photo or no photo, you know? Ah lot of organizations will do. A b testing specifically around fund-raising with on that on that donation page, does it have a photo or does it just have the form? Or, you know, does it show maybe a image of some sort that shows, like how they’re using the funding, for example, or what the project looks like that they’re asking for money for or again, is it just the form, you know? So and that’s it it’s going to change it’s not going to be the same for every single organization? You know, you have to do that testing because if especially if you’re an organization that’s used a lot of images in your campaign in your appeals that’s, you know that it’s driving people to remember what, what this is all about maybe having that photo there again, we’ll just keep that emotional tie to the campaign. But if it’s your raising money for something that you haven’t been using, that kind of graphical support for, well, maybe people would get there and say, why do you have this random photo of a child up here? You know, so so you wanted to be consistent, but you also want a test to see. What’s going to get the most completion on that form. Ok. And so i just said quickly before the break. You are you are you randomly? Your technology is randomly assigning people two different a and b version that’s what they be testing it first to a and b version is that is that what happens? So there are all different levels of sophistication, so you may be using a tool google has? Uh uh, baby testing tool optimize. Lee is another pretty sophisticated tool to use for that, especially around your website. But with email marketing, you could just say we want to send you don’t have the list this message and half the list this message or say you have a thousand people on your email list, send the first one hundred message a the next one hundred message be and then wait two hours, see which one had more opens and then say, great, we’re going to go with that message to the other eight hundred. Okay, so this could be that instantaneous. We’re just a couple of hours. Exactly. Okay. Okay. Now, an email, a popular thing to test is a subject line. Right? You could. Be having different versions of a subject line, right? Everything else would be the same. Exactly. The message inside is the same. But having, you know, a call to action versus you know anyone, regardless of which side you support anyone that’s on a political list. You’ve seen them testing those subject lines. You see messages coming almost every day during campaign season. Sometimes it just has one word. You know, sometimes it has your name in it sometimes it’s a really long call to action and that’s just those campaigns testing out what’s getting the most people to open this on the on the fund-raising landing page side, you have the example of the clinton bush haiti fund. They changed something so subtle, just the words within the button that you click right. The red, they have a red button and i have i’ve read that red is a very powerful color. Red is supposed to be very good button color for donate now for donation buttons or buy buttons. So they changed it from submit that the word in the button was submit to support haiti, and they got a fifteen percent increase in dollars per page view. Just something so subtle is that exactly and part of that, you know, some organizations think, well, we don’t want to write submit because normally, you know what we want them to do is donate or whatever their word choice, maybe, but if you have all throughout your website, if you keep using the word support, support us through your donations, support us by taking this action, and then someone gets to a page where there’s a button that says donate well, it feels really weird because you’ve already been consistently using this other word, so that consistency is important, you know? And again, if if you go look on your website now and you see that on your you’re donate paige it’s the only place you say there were donate but the rest of the time you really are talking about, support us financially. That’s an opportunity to do some testing because maybe donate works for your organization, and you should change those other places where it says sport or the other way around. Okay, excellent example, right of potential testing. Another thing they did there. There’s. This little geo trust verified icon i guess that it’s a trustworthy site right? Forgiving is that what that is, right? And there are all different kinds of those, you know, whether it’s charity navigator, geo trust like all those different things that say, basically, we’re not goingto take your money and do something else with it, i guess again, there’s different levels of what these other certification sites mean to, but some places have found, you know, some organizations found that by putting those kinds of seals of approval, i guess you would say on the donation for more on the button, they saw a big increase, but others have found like they did. You know, when you when you take it away, you actually haven’t they well, they decode, they had to do when they when they took that away, they lost five percent revenue right per page view. Exactly. There’s a trusted icon similar to papal, verified on the commercial side. Exactly. So people have gotten really used to, even if people don’t necessarily know what geo trust is or they don’t know what you know, charity navigator is they don’t know what they are, but the fact that it says it’s verified, you know, someone’s looked into these people give some amount of trust some of the things that you suggest it could be changed on dh tested form fields, how many form fields you have, the donation amounts that air suggested those little radio buttons that you click ten, twenty five, fifty hundred and that’s a really big thing to change, especially, you know, certain campaigns have found easy ways to mix that up because if they had a number involved in the campaign, you know, if if the campaign was around ah, holiday and it was on the thirteenth or it was a military campaign and they wanted to use the six as there number, and so then you just have increments of six, and you, maybe you say sixty is the default, right? Whenever organizations test that out, often they find people that the hyre number really does get donated because they’ve just mixed it up a little, you know, they didn’t defaulted to ten, you know, they put it up there a bit because people will still put it down if they want to have a smaller number, you know, but showing kind of the idea with where that preset radio button selection is. Is basically trying to say this is the average gift. This is the normal donation. So it’s not, you know, we’re expecting you to do this, but, hey, most people are doing this one thats why its preset on sixty. You know, eso it just encourages people. Tio not think oh, this is just a ten dollar or that’s, just the twenty five dollar normal donation, you know, so putting different numbers in there that are, like, thirty three and, you know, throws people a little. We have. We have tim sample on the line, tim samples called, and this is amy’s dad, he called in last month. Tim. Tim sample, how are you doing in oregon? I’m doing good doing good and plays it’s it’s already done, or or a gun? Oregon where there’s no evil or he’ll help you. Oregon. All right, there you go. You go. Oregon. Are it’s not gone? There’s no e at the end. Oh, thank you. Alright, oregon, but i’m a i’m right in the middle of work right now, but i’ve had an opportunity to come down on my desk and lock the doors. Nobody bought it. I’m at your disposal. Thank you, tim. You know, i wanted to ask you. I have here with me. You know, this little kind of sort of shrinking kind of wallflower, you know? Never not very engaged. Not very out there. What? What? What is she always like this when she was growing up? Oh, you’re talking about my daughter? Yeah, i know. I know. It’s. Hard to tell. Yeah. Yeah, alright, now, but without the sarcasm has always been a type a personality. Yeah, and always always engaged. Like, was she in? A lot of i could’ve asked her, but it’s more fun to ask you. Was she out there? Like, in activities in elementary school in high school? I mean, she’s, the online engagement, everything poster poster will be, could everything she could possibly get involved with. She was involved with her mother, and i tried to give her every opportunity to try every sport, every activity you wanted, you know, you know, as parents, we tried to do that for her. Can. My god, you know a good example of amy. I tell this story. He probably doesn’t remember it. But in the second grade, i said anything. You got your homework. Done well, yes. He had two next day’s homework done the whole weeks. Only john had read three chapters ahead. It was the last time we ever ask her if she had her homework done. Never had to worry about amy school or anything. Okay. And always self directed, always always getting right with it. And and i feel like he is right now. I know and engaged also. Always engaged with the public. Yes. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. How did we know that she’d end up a consultant and someone that people look to for advice about online engagement? Did you see this coming? I thought he’d be president united states by now myself? No, no pressure. Thanks, dad, but i didn’t want to go into politics. I amy always had a sense of what was right and wrong, you know, always interacting with other children. You know, she always knew what was right or wrong. She never made bad decisions that i can see. And if she did so well, i hit way didn’t know about it. All right, well, we’re back, but she has a sphere of alligators. Is that is that you’re doing? Is that is that? You’re doing, she has a fear of alligators, is that you’re doing a fear of alligators. You’re not aware of this? Well, we don’t have many alligators over here where we live in oregon and oregon in oregon, oregon. Now i know i never knew he had any fears at all. Tony all right. It was an example after a trip to florida, and tony will let me live it down if it comes up to you. Okay. Yeah, i have a fear of snakes. Oh, i don’t think i pass that on to her. I don’t know if alligators are reptiles like snakes are alligators may or may not be reptiles. Maybe maybe look together. Alright. Alright. We’re gonna let you go back to work, tim. All right, perfect. Thank you very much for calling the opportunity. We’re going. You don’t have to your daughter by tim sample. Okay. Goodbye. All right. I wanted to have some fun. Do that that’s fair. Okay. This’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. You are in charge of the shop. Future president. I know i the bar’s pretty high now. Yeah, i in fact, when alison find was here last week, i asked her if she thought that a presidential candidate could emerge outside the two major parties from online on, and she felt that it could eventually, but that we would see local local races first. Mayor’s maybe governors or senators, you know, but more local than presidential right away. But i was i had you in mind. I had your president cha operations. I don’t. I want to. You know, there’s. Another election coming up it’s true only only only few years. It’s. Really? Not all that far away. So exactly. Okay, she felt it was possible. Do you think it’s possible for a for their previous president there emerges online. Yeah, especially. I think around someone from a grassroots campaigning background not political, necessarily, but someone that’s that’s already actively working online to bring people together for other social issues or other kinds of campaigns. So so someone who’s in it in that way, i think, could easily cross over to say great. Well, now i want to run for for an elected position versus i’m just going to be the organizer that keeps this. Keeps this movement going. Okay. You have anybody in mind? Apparently i need to put myself in the strike don’t talk about other candidate. Exactly. Were we stupid? All right, i will go on the record shows up today never mentioning another candidate. All right, um, let’s oh, there was one more thing. I want to point out that matching gif ts is another possible, maybe another another possible testing. So oh, exactly the existence of or how big a match might be, right? Especially, you know, something to think about with phrasing of matching gifts is there’s the version of, you know, if we get to this number, we get that same total matched or every ten dollars gets matched. So then people think, well, my ten dollars isn’t going to mean much to this really big pot. We have to get two of twenty thousand, but if instead you say the matches, you know, dollar for dollar, whatever you khun give, how does that affect your community? Because some communities may really get behind the idea of, like, having to get to that really big number together and other communities want to feel like they’re five dollars, was still matched and still meant ten dollars, for the organization. So think about the way you use the match in your campaign, and several weeks ago we had a university professor on from university of chicago john list talked about scientific research around matching gift does does a three to one match necessarily pulled more than a one to one match? Right and where and on dh? Also in the phraseology of the match, the way you’re describing and that will show was on february eighth of this year. If you want to hear discussion about the scientific research specifically around matching gift excellent, we’re going to take more of a break, another break, and when we come back, we’ll talk more about who gets involved in the campaign, some budgeting, maybe some calendar ring and things like that and also tony’s take too, of course, comes before all that. Stay with me more with amy coming up first pursuant, check them out for lots of free resource is week after week, um, urging you to browse the collection, as my library used to say in elementary school, browse the collection that was when we had those card catalogs looking that they weren’t literally index cards or little cards were that brass rod ran through the ran through the middle on the bottom of the cards. It was always shiny and slippery, and you could get their little those little cards. And they used the dewey decimal system. We don’t know. Uh, we still use the dewey decimal, so i don’t even know. Do it. Yeah, but browse the collection and pursuing its much easier than the brass rotted dahna card catalogs of yesteryear. And where do you go? So you click. You go to pursuing dot com and you click resources. And then as you start your browsing the maybe the blogged or webinars or content papers or infographics. It’s all right, there. No card catalog required pursuing dot com. We’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. You need money for your good work? Yes. Throw a spelling bee. You know i hate the word. Let us. I got stuck on lettuce was or greenlee was all it was all iceberg at the time. I hate the word. Let us i love but thea tangible manifestation of the word i enjoy but not the word itself. I digress. Host a spelling bee make millennial money. These are ideal fundraisers for millennials with spelling bee. And live music, et cetera. Stand up. Comedy dancing check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and talkto alex career the ceo now time for tony’s take two. Thank you so glad that you are with us. Whether it is let’s, do it backwards. I hate to break with tradition. It’s it’s so risky, but we start with the affiliate affections. And i am so glad that our am and fm listeners are with us week after week wherever your station fits us into there. Line up. So glad to have you with us podcast pleasantries always going out two the two are precious podcast listeners precious podcast pleasantries. I’m not going to do that every week now. Two’s enough podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand listening in the time shift so glad that you are with us thank you. And alive listener love always goes out you know who you are you know where you are. I can’t shut you out by city and state this very day. Although i will be able to next week and the week after live listener love to you thank you for being with us and also, if you are a non-profit radio insider and i get into your inbox every thursday. Thank you for letting me in there. I’m grateful that is tony, take two. And here is amy sample ward continuing with her book, social change. Anytime everywhere you gotta get this book for god’s sake, just get it. Amy who’s, who should be involved in this work? And how are we going? Estimate the time that’s going to be involved in our online campaign? Sure, i think fund-raising campaigns just like any other campaigns organization, maybe running advocacy list building, you know, community engagement, etcetera can’t be thought of as something that’s completely contained within the fund-raising department, because ultimately there are e mails and there’s this a b testing on the website, and all of those other components require all different staff from different departments. So it’s an opportunity to create, i think, processes we suggest in the book, where you will have regular opportunities for staff across departments, not necessarily like on all staff meeting, but staff across departments that are ultimately all creating the success of that campaign to come together, whether that’s like every week or however your organization wants to do it. To have a meeting where you’re all in the room at the same time, or all on video chat or whatever you want to do so that everyone’s talking about it. So as soon as you break that campaign down into the people that are in charge of the email never talked to the people that were in charge of actually counting how many people are coming through the form, then you’ve already said, well, we’re not even going to have the best conversation we can have with this campaign staff aren’t talking to each other, so creative process first, so that everyone involved is coming together regularly to talk about kosh, we saw that this button language was the best. Well, the e mail better have that same button language. You know, any abie testing that you’re doing anything you’re learning about what’s working with the campaign should then be immediately reflected in all the other components. So how you either evaluate ahead of time, staff time or recognize all those different pieces are maybe serving the rest of the organization. So thinking of of people in communications is not just communications staff that all they do is communicate. But they also served fund-raising and they also serve advocacy, and they also served programs. So what does that mean as far as your staff plan? And what does that mean for your value evaluation of staff? You know, those communications staff in this example couldn’t just say, well, my job is to send e mail and i sent them, but how, you know, how was your function in this organization, reflective of our success in our fundraising campaign were reflective of the success in our advocacy campaign so that it’s showing that that person isn’t just responsible for hitting send on thousands of emails but showing them even in their own evaluation, that they’re part of the whole organization success, which i think is critical for having all of your staff buy-in toe working towards your mission, you know, as soon as you say, well, your job is just the website what their job is the web site, because it’s serving the mission of helping people understand you know what your your cause is all about and so did did they lead the baby testing that help figure out that that button actually could have, you know, in increased by fifteen percent the donations that’s huge that’s, not just the fund-raising team that’s also that person who’s managing the website. What about the smaller shop? Just a two or three person arts group? I mean, how are we going to build even? Ah, modest campaign into what we’re trying to. We’re struggling to keep get getting done day in, day out, right? I think for smaller organizations, but really, the same lesson applies to everyone. Ah lot of of the components of the campaign are actually developed way in advanced. If you’re collecting stories actively as you are working with your community year and you’re keeping those stories not just on a piece of paper in your desk, but, you know, kind of like a story bank you have, you have ah, bank. You could draw from of all these different stories then in that moment when you need to create a campaign, maybe it’s a response of campaign because some horrible event has happened. And you want to make sure people are aware of your services. You know, for example, you have that content. You don’t have to then spend a week developing. Okay, who’s who from our community do we want to talk to you know, where could we get a story about our services in action? You’ve already created that content in advance, so especially when you only have two people, the more you can do to just kind of be librarians, you know, tio, cart, chronicle and archive all that you have all the time so that you can really easily just say that’s, you know, the book i want that’s, the story i want off that shelf and let’s put it into this email and then again, a be testing is so, i think, critical for really small shops, because if you really can just say, we’re going to send this e mail to one hundred people each and then know that the one that got more opens is what we’re going to send even though it took you maybe an extra five minutes to go back and say, okay, now send this list that was a really great five minutes, because it means you’re getting that many more people opening that message. Let’s look, a tte budgeting our campaign may involve some adwords facebook, facebook yeah, how are we going toe? How do? We figure out what what we should be too spending money on is beyond the time that also is an indirect, indirect cost, right? First, obviously, you know, you have to have the caveat of it all depends what’s your campaign about where is your community? Ah lot of people have have realized that you’re not necessarily just going to make all of your money from your fund-raising campaign on facebook, but a lot of those people that are participating as donors, maybe on your facebook page. So thinking about how you budget for promotion of the campaign versus budget, for the call to action, you know, you may want to just invest in having ads showing the efficacy of your work so that when people are then emailed a call to donate, they’re like, oh, yeah, you guys do really great stuff. I do want to donate via email because that’s my, you know, i’ll just click don’t and go to your website, but maybe it’s different for your forget it community, maybe your community doesn’t really know, and they just need to be told, like there was a disaster and donate, you know, it depends a lot in the circumstances, i think it’s also, especially with things like facebook, where they’re changing the algorithm like every five hours you have to do so may be testing, you have to invest in that a be testing. So you know which of these ads are working better? Do we do promoted posts, or do we do ads? So some of it is just having a reserve of that advertising budget to test with, and you don’t have to spend a lot of money now, like facebook ads are not expensive, right? For-profit lee fifty dollars or so you could oh, exactly, you attest? Oh, for sure, yeah, and the problem or the great opportunity that could become a new obstacle for organizations, is that when you get in there to do a facebook at our, you know, promoted post, you’re you’re presented with the opportunity to pick like which gender location, background so many details, but it can either be overwhelming and you just say, well, i just wanted to go to everyone, and then you’re going to run out of that fifty dollars budget instantly, you know, or you get so narrow and who you want this ad to? Go, too, but it never really goes to anyone. So i think there’s a little bit of opportunity, teo play even just with that, that scale of who do you really want to promote this to? Who is your donor? And what do you know about them? Which goes back to what we talked about months ago, about how, you know, investing and knowing who your community is first, so that you can say the right things on the right channels, and i appreciate that your advice always is. What are the goals of the campaign right now, and not only to raise the money that that? Well, actually, the campaign may not be about even about money, but may not only be the explicit purpose of the campaign, but also to grow engagement in the long term, bring some new people to the cause may not even fremery respond to your call to action, but now they’ve joined your community exactly, exactly. And for them this you know, your campaign that maybe their friend donated teo was the first time they had heard aboutyou, but they’re now hearing about you in a really trusted way because they heard that. A friend not only supported your work but gave money to your work, and now they just want to follow along, and eventually you can, you know, encourage them up that ladder of engagement to become a donor as well. And in that respect, not everything in your campaign has to be about the call to action, right? I mean, i know i guess you want the called action to be frequent, but there can be things that are informative beyond the call to action. Exact. I think a lot of organizations will shook about a fundraising campaign, i think. Okay, first and foremost, they’re donating to this campaign. They’re going to donate to this campaign. They really get that out there, and then people donate and then there’s nothing else, you know. So people feel like, well, i did the thing, but there has to be more aiken dio so recognizing that there is always more they khun dio having that thank you, paige, push them to the very next step. What’s the next step for you is that great. Thanks for donating here’s the button to share on facebook that you just donated, you know, or is the email confirmation encouraging them to share their story about why they donated so that now you have one more story and your story bag, you know, so think about what people can do to still feel like they’re contributing to this forward motion because they already donated, which is huge, so don’t take someone who’s willing to take a really big action and then just dropped them off, keep them, you know, sustained that engagement and keep them engaged so that you can ask them to donate again, you know, if they haven’t heard from you, and now you’re asking again for them to donate well, they feel like don’t you remember that i already donated? But if you’ve said, you know, hey, share this on facebook? Hey, give us your story, etcetera, and then you say thank you for donating. Please help some more. They feel like yes, of course we are trying to get there together. What is ah, home page hijack? Uh, it’s called many things, but basically i’m sure most people have experiences when you go to a website and you just, you know, landed on the website haven’t clicked on anything, and then something pops. Up, even the new york times does this you think you’re going to go read an article from the new york times that your friend just tweeted that and there’s a thing that pops up that says, don’t you want to pay for new york times content? Why don’t you subscribe? That’s that’s ah, home page hijacked, for example, it’s basically a light box that pops up and says, whatever you thought you were here to read. This is what we want you to read and it’s great for people that if they really are just hitting your home page because maybe they were, you know, searching online for something and came to your website, they don’t know or you’re directed people back to your website, and it can pop up and say, this is what’s happening here is the called action here’s, that big red button that says support haiti or whatever, and obviously they could close out of the box or lorts like off it, etcetera, but the fact that it makes it super front and center lit literally front and center on the website helps direct that traffic into the call to action where you could maybe. Instead of them seeing your home page that’s, you know, normally fairly generic has lots of navigation, et cetera and drives them to a page that’s just about the campaign, you know, really focus. They can see the donate form they khun see whatever helps funnel people just to the campaign instead of accidentally clicking unlike, oh, what is this organization about? And what do you do and what’s? This other thing? I see a photo of, you know, it just helps funnel people in where you want them to go. You have advice about how frequently someone may see that home page hijack, so maybe it shouldn’t be more than once a week person and the technology will support that our exam twice a week per person or whatever you think exactly, yeah, i mean, it’ll where people out if every time they go to any page of your website, they’re getting this pop up essentially, you know, but if you can say yeah, once a week or the first time someone comes to the website because maybe outside of a fundraising campaign, you could use that for many things you could have it say, join our email list. You know, subscribe to our news, whatever you want that pop up to be. So if you see that every time, well, gosh, i signed up a week ago, and i’m seeing it every day, you know, so just may be the first time that i p address hits the web site, you know? We’re going to take a break in about a minute. We want to have some print possibly to be in support of our campaign. I want to just open that topical bit. We’ll talk more about it shortly. Sure, i think print is actually a great medium, especially for fund-raising still one of the main drivers of fund-raising effort so looking again at that piece as a way to frame all of the content that’s going to come later because you’re going to be ableto change up at the very last minute, what you tweet and what you put in an e mail, etcetera. But if that print piece supports that overall call to action, the overall message and maybe has just won fairly general story that you can then really dig into that story of what that person’s you know, experience was or what those services mean to the community it’s a great way to frame things as a oh, yeah, i remember this. You know, every time they then get an email from you. All right, we’ll talk more about this and the and the fund-raising plan in general, when we return with amy, sample ward, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from a standup comedy, tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page. Tony martignetti dot com i’m christine cronin, president of n y charities dot orc. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Hi there again and welcome back. Uh, anything more that you want to say about print in support of this, i would i would add that prince should certainly be needs to be in this fund-raising calendar with a campaign calendar that we talked about last month and it’s something that we’ve talked about in the past, i forget what episode number, but we talked about competition and how teo, you know, if if you were doing a phone bank, for example, of donations and you and you mentioned the research shows, at least if you were to mention, you know, the previous collar don’t thisyou know people are more inclined to say, well, i’m going to do that if someone else did print is a really easy way to do that as well, because you clearly know where they live, you are mailing something to them. So say, on average, people in your neighborhood donated this last year to our campaign. Oh, my gosh, now they like now i’m going to look in on my neighbor’s like which ones of you donated one hundred dollars? Now i feel guilty, i’m going to donate a hundred dollars, you know? So so keep those same principles that you use online with making it be a riel story, having it connected to something directly when your mission have a very clear call to action. But then take advantage of that local competition that peer pressure of this is this is really, really in your neighborhood. But also this is how people are actually helping us. So you should too. We can also have competition in telemarketing right in our telephone call once just remind i think this may have been last month, but in the way that callers are greeted, andi encouraged or thanked for their past giving there could be some competitiveness. Exactly. Exactly. So i’m not just saying like, oh, thanks you want to donate, but also, you know oh, you have reviews caller. Exactly. The previous collar donated this. And if you can, if you can hear sometimes, you know it’s it’s hard to just make a judgment. But if you could hear that it was a male calling and you could say, oh, well, the man before you donated this, if you if you have that opportunity to be gender specific, the results or even hyre from studies that say, you know, once i’m told the previous collar was a woman and she don’t even more than me well, man, i want to donate as much as her, so all right, let’s, let’s wrap up our campaign with the thank you’s yes, thank you’s are critical and thank you don’t have to be at the end of the campaign. Thank you should be every time someone’s done something, so when they sign up for that email lists, you know, thank them if they donated, thank them, but also do that thinking in public when you can, you know, you’ll see people in the campaign putting on facebook that they, you know, because they got to the thank you page, the confirmation page, and they tweeted, or they posted to facebook that they just donated, well, that’s a great place if the organization is then liking that post, if you you know, privacy settings are such that you can see their post or on twitter, the organization is retweeting them to them that’s huge validation the organization noticed that i just tweeted out, you know, that i donated and i’m i got retweeted or i got thanked publicly and that certainly doesn’t take, you know, a lot of effort, you’re not creating any new content you’re just saying thank you very much, but it can mean a lot publicly for the community to see those individual voices being thanked. How do you feel about the mailing of small, maybe small tokens? Oh, yeah, of gratitude o i think i think a hand written note, even if all it says is, you know, tony, thanks so much for your donation. Amy. It was a hand written note. It had to go through the mail, you know? It means a lot exactly could be something online, maybe maybe a little gift certificate or a discount to a site or something. Exactly how else can we say the small ways of saying thank you, right? And i there are lots of ways where, you know, and and ten we can say thank you by saying, you know, to thank you for what you’ve done here is a free webinar, for example, you know, web in our past, but for other organizations, it can also be an opportunity to say, because you donated, you’re now invited to this event that’s only for our donors, you know, so you’re also providing access to something that is otherwise exclusive, and you can use that as a way to say, hey, all of our donors are going to be joining us at this, you know, a local place that everyone knows is really fun or, you know, historic or whatever come join us in this, and it doesn’t have to be, you know, because he’ll be a national campaign, but you could say, if you’re a donor, you’ll get the link to the live stream and you get to be there for this interview with our founder or whatever, and even if people don’t want to go it’s still saying, we know tony, you donated, and we want you as part of this conversation, just the act of inviting exact is very, very it is very gracious exactly in heimans larger organizations that i that i work with will often invite people on the other side of the country to a luncheon that we’re hosting in new york city to to say thank you right way don’t expect them to come. We know the observers are tiny that they will, but the act of the invitation what if they were going to be in town for other business where they were going to be in town, meeting with someone? And now they can say, oh, while i’m there, i’m also going to go to this luncheon because i donated and that’s really cool, you know, i’ve never asked you this. You’ve been on many times. What is it that you love about the work that you do, this whole body of work that you that you’re involved with? What is it you love? I i love the people like i love that we are in a position to get to support not just one person that we’ve met, you know, and, like, help them do whatever, but we can help hold communities that’s really exciting, you know, or that you can help all of those people in the community know that they’re in a community i mean, i think that’s the really exciting power of the internet is that people thought i’m the only person that has x y and z here and the only person it’s experienced this, and now they go online like, oh my gosh, i’m not special at all there’s a million. People who’ve had this and so part of it is that that feeling of like, i’m not special, but i’m not special because there are so many of these other special people you know, and getting to find them and create community with each other, even when you can’t all be physically in the same room. Her latest book is social change anytime everywhere you’ll find amy’s blawg at amy, sample ward, dot or ge once again a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Be sure and thank him for calling it. I will. That’s, dad, dad to you? Yes, next week i know it won’t be fermentation if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. Wee bey e spelling dot com a creative, producers clad meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez and this music is by scott stein he with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for July 7, 2017: Social Change Anytime Everywhere, Part I

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My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Social Change Anytime Everywhere, Part I

Amy Sample Ward

Our social media contributor’s book is “Social Change Anytime Everywhere.” When it came out we talked about how your nonprofit can raise money, find advocates and move the needle on engagement in our anytime, everywhere world. Four years later, Amy Sample Ward’s book remains relevant and valuable. (Originally aired 3/15/13)

 

 


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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Our three hundred fiftieth show is coming up it’s july twenty eighth, three weeks oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of skill algeria if you kicked me with the idea that you missed today’s show social change anytime everywhere part one our social media contributors book is social change anytime, everywhere when it came out, we talked about how your non-profit can raise money, find advocates and move the needle on engagement in our any time everywhere world. Four years later, amy sample wards book remains relevant and valuable absolutely that originally aired on march fifteen twenty thirteen. I’m tony take two hello, nc tech for good. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com here is aimee semple ward and me talking about her book social change any time everywhere amy’s not here yet, so we’re going do a little a little preview of her book, a little browse through her book. The first thing that i want to point out is that i wish it had more pictures when i’m when i’m picking books. I i flipped through looking for pictures, and i probably would not have bought her book. It didn’t have enough pictures for me. I like pictures, like more graphic, so it has graphics and has some screen shots. Ah, it’s, very good that way, but i would like more. I would like more pictures in amy’s book. Aside from that, any simple word has just joined us. Well, i’m sure you did. All right, pick moment. Take a moment. Compose yourself if we figured you were in the subway, i was just saying, i wish your book had more pictures. Oh, yeah. Pictures of what? Just it doesn’t really matter. I don’t know. Cute dogs, landscapes, landscapes yeah, i just looked and i look for pictures as i’m i’m browsing through the book section the books it was meant more for reading than browsing. But ok, take another breath. Your yes. You knew you knew that we were waiting for you, and yeah, i was going to be fine, but welcome. Thank you. Have you for the full hour? Yeah, exactly. I’m happy to be here for as much of the subway would let me to be our best majority. I did tony’s take two in advance. So? So whenever i’ll have that time together, congratulations on your book. Thank you. It’s called, written by alison is keeping kapin kapin much. Tell us about alison she’s, the founder of radcampaign and the tele summit and network women who tech she’s based in d c ah, she’s. Pretty. Cool. Yeah. I met her because i was at your book launch. Oh, that’s right book launch that you did at the at planned parenthood parenthood federation. Yeah, yeah, that was very good to about forty people. If you got to meet your husband, max? Yes, very nice. Often left alone as your traveling throughout the country. Yes. That’s the that’s the first time he’s ever seen me speak in any capacity in public? Yes. He said that i didn’t talk to him. You know, first time i know for certain that lovely. Um okay, we’re in. Why do you let’s make this clear? Where? Ok, i need any time everywhere, what’s, what’s our anytime, everywhere world that you are trying to help people make social change in. Well, the anytime everywhere is really focused on the people, not the organization. So all of your constituents, donors, supporters, whatever you want to call them, they are, you know, living their lives basically around the clock, their life. And they are thinking about okay, if i want to talk to this person, i’m going to do it here or if i want to talk about this topic, i’m going to do it here you just interact with your community, however you do as an individual, it might mean a friend calls you and then after you hang up, maybe you go look at facebook and interact with another friend there and then maybe send your mom and email, you know, but you’re not thinking okay, well, i only talked to sam on the phone on, i only talk to my friend barb in email, you know, you as people, we don’t treat our communications and our networks in that way, so organization shouldn’t be saying, ok, well, we only send you emails or we only let you talk about our campaign on facebook. We need to think about the way we communicate and allow our communities to engage with us as as a way that crosses all those channels as well, okay? We’re not segmenting our lives and write our community our conversations, right? Stilted, like communications are conversations, right? I see somebody on foursquare check in and i’ll make a snarky comment or something. E i have seen one of those geever andi didn’t answer it as i recall, um, in fact, you were recently traveling, you were in south by southwest i wass that’s. Ah, what i think of it is just a big music and party and drink fest. Is that what many people think of it that way as well? I’ve never been there at the beauty of being me is that i can know nothing about something and still be an expert in that. Yes, of course. Oh, i think i’m very well acquainted herself by southwest, even though i’ve never been there. Why don’t you tell us what the rial tell people like me who think that everything that they know nothing about but it’s a very comfortable place to be. Actually i what is south by southwest? Well, it are very originally was a music festival, but now has three components music tech interactive, which is really all kinds of technology, not just social media, including gaming and all kinds of interfaces hardware, software, etcetera and film. So film and interactive take place the same week. Concurrently on then the following week is all music. Were you there in your capacity as membership director of non-profit technology network? I waas so there’s a non-profit lounge there lounges of all different types sponsored by different people so there’s, a blogger lounge meant for bloggers to find each other, etcetera. So the non-profit lounge is sponsored each year by beaconfire ah, long time, you know, and ten member organization sponsor etcetera. And they opened it up for others to get to be in the space with them. So and ten had a presence. We had a couple couches, if you will. And i was also working with them to manage the content each day so that people that were start in the lounge, what kind of cause that we had was that we had a different topic each day. So we had one day was focused on measurement and metrics. One day was focused on engaging millennials. One day was focused on technology, staffing and the capacity around technology. Um, there were a couple more, and we so we highlighted little, you know, not not trivia because they’re real. But, you know, just little tidbits from our research each day based on that topic. So you come in the room and learn different things. And then at lunchtime we had panels on that topic so people that we knew were going to be either at south. By southwest are actually based in austin that we could bring in to talk that day, just with whoever wanted to be there and engage with them. And then night times that was the drink fest in well, for some, i think drinking started as early is, like eleven, because i guess technically it’s noon on the east coast. Yes, yes, all right, anything. Did you learn a couple of one or two little things that that you didn’t know or maybe reinforce something that what was your was your take home from from south by that’s me something? Yeah, i think you know, they’re always different applications or tools that get launched itself myself west. So people, you know, waiting, teo, unveil some new application, and so there was a bit of that as well, but i think this year, the feeling that i got from a lot of the non-profit and social impact crowd at the conference was that people are really starting to get to a place where they feel really proud about some of the things they’ve done in their non-profit and they they wish, you know hey, what? Why don’t we get all the attention? You know, just because that really big organization, you know, that has tons of marketing budget and had tried and tried many things and then succeeded with something, you know, we’re a tiny organization, and we did that to, you know, they want a platform for their voices to but, you know, south by is always kind of mixing up the content and have had different tracks and and things like that over the years. So it’s not to say that there will never be a platform for them. But i think this year, there are a lot of organizations there, you know, looking for a place where they could stand on their soapbox and and get to share with everyone what they’ve worked on. All right and excellent that they got that exactly like to see that small, especially small and midsize shops getting attention. Craig newmark wrote the forward to your book. Craig is the founder of craig craig’s list, of course. And craigconnects he’s been our guest on the show twice. I think that was a trivia question once. How many times you been on the show? Oh, did we do that? Oh, i think we did. I think for a giveaway and weigh just you were my guest for the hundredth show and we’re giving away, yes, but the answer’s two way long ago gave away a lot of intense swag for us to give away. Yes, and he says in the forward that social media and good customer service or big deals you think we were going to you and i talk every month about social media, we know that that’s a big deal, good customer service what? Why? Why is he talking about that with respect to social engagements? Social change? Well, i think it doesn’t matter if you’re for-profit aura non-profit if you do true direct service or not, ah lot of the most basic day to day interactions that you could be having with your community take the form of customer service, even if you know, in a non-profit we normally don’t call them that, but but answering people’s questions or just being able to be present on social media, where you see people asking a question, even if it’s not about you being the organization that can answer the question for them and really playing a service role builds community in such a small kind of passive way, but that israel and you’re creating value with them that it is a matter you know, if you are comcast and you want to use twitter to answer customer service questions or, you know you’re the humane society and you want to use twitter to make sure people know how to get help with their animals and and, you know, i like your just broad definition of what’s customer service. I mean, it may just be interacting on a day to day, right? You may not think of it as a service to the customer just having, you know, we’re just engaged in a conversation there on the engagement ladder and which is that we’re just, you know, talking to them right, exactly and helping helping your supporters take advantage of all that they could do with you is customer service, you know, someone calling and saying, i want to volunteer, but i don’t know how and you pointing them in the direct in the right direction that is still a customer service function in your organization got some live listener love we’re talking about texas austin, texas, where itself by was but we have san antonio on the line, santa or on the web, you know, antonio, texas, live listeners love, welcome, welcome to the show and the conversation. Let’s, talk, talk a fair amount, i think about fund-raising and then how will we even, you know, engagement and advocate could you get, you know, getting talking toa advocates and motivating advocates? And you spent some time talking about the different motivations to give why white people are giving on dh. There certainly have been articles and books on this right by the the traditional, i guess, fund-raising prose that are out there, you you spent a little time with emotions, emotions versus statistics, right? What would you like to say there? Well, obviously, we are humans. We are driven by emotion. Um, and i think that a lot of online tools facilitate that really well, you know, how many times have we seen a tweet or gotten an email where they say, you know, this many million people in this country are dealing with this issue and it’s like, okay, well, i don’t actually know a billion people, so i can’t conceptualize that very well, you know, but having a story that directly connects with you. And is someone that’s already been served by that organization helps you understand the kind of person that is may be dealing with that issue and the way that the organization helps them. Because that’s really what we need thio conceive as the person who’s going to take action. Isn’t that what does it really mean for a billion people to be dealing with this issue? But what does it look like to help a person with dealing with that issue? If i can conceptualize what changing the fate is, then i can understand how i can help it and be a part of it. But if it’s just the raw data, it’s really hard to see what the action is in that, and social media really helps with storytelling because you can have, you know, people interacting people sharing their own story in response to that story, it really facilitates that. But the other part of emotion is our natural competitiveness and, you know, not really wanting to say, oh, yeah, my friend karen gave a lot more to that organization that i did. Who says that? Who says, oh, i gave the least. Of my friends, you know, and and tapping into that natural competitiveness, you know, using your pressure for good is actually very successful. One of the research reports that we sight in the book was in pledges, so so, like a pledge drive over the phone, but still you could do this on social media. But when the caller you know, talking to the donor said that the previous caller had given more than they were about to pledge, they then up to their pledge and they upped it even more when the collar sad? Oh, actually, the woman before you, if it was a woman collar and once they knew it was the same gender is them, they gave even more so just by presenting the opportunity to be outdone by someone else, people wanted to beat them. We’re going to talk that’s, outstanding. We had a guest i had guessed professor jin xiang from the university of indiana, and she had done research with this was telephone based also with public radio in bloomington, indiana. When when? When certain, whether she had five key words and when they were used to thank the person you’re or to describe. The person as as a donor. So you’re very kind of you to give or it’s very compassionate of you to give that it increased the the donations right for that call. And actually i think that we’re doing it. I’m being a little inarticulate, but where they were doing it was i want to thank you for your kind donations in the past, or your compassionate or your thoughtful donations in the past, and we hope that you’ll you’ll help us today. Yeah, those using there were five different adjective she had and they could trigger they would trigger hyre giving than someone who who was just thanked. Thank you for your past giving, right. So this is this is really interesting when it’s gender and when there’s a comparison to the previous calling out how were they, you know, like what the language they were using because you don’t be snarky about it, right? Right. Do you remember i were introducing that it’s now the top of my head. It was something like, you know, similar. Like, thanks so much for your desire to give the woman before you donated fifty. How much would you like to donate? So you’re just kind of using it as a context setting statement and then giving them the chance to say, like, well, darn it, i’m given sixty five, you know? Yeah, yeah, excellent. Okay, um going back to your point about big numbers versus a face, i found a quote, i’m going to quote mother teresa, i found a quote that that’s pertinent to this, i think she said, never worry about numbers, help one person at a time and always start with the person nearest you. Social media can make a story come alive it complete person near you could be pictures on instagram. It could be video youtube video on your blogged you can you can put a face to the the homelessness or the hunger that affects a billion people right, and show people how their gift will will impact that that story right? And i like the part of the quote that says start with the person nearest to because that’s too, what we’ve talked about many times in the show don’t go out there and try and find these new people. You already have a community of people that you work with, that you’ve served. Start with their stories and then other people will come out of the woodwork. You know that identify with that story or that have also been served, but maybe i hadn’t talked to you before, so start with the stories you already have and just show them out to the to the rest of the community. Ok, so some peer pressure, yes, about suffering a little point about about suffering can be a valuable, motivated give yeah, it’s kind of a weird nuance on competition. It’s it’s part of why things like walkathon tze and challenges of you know, if i if someone donates five thousand dollars, i’ll shave my head because we actually really liketo watch each other half to deal with something that we don’t have to deal with. And so it’s it’s part of why we khun sake, great! You know, if you pledge, i’ll have to run this many miles. Terrific! I would like to see my friend have to run that many miles. Yeah, and again, doing that in a place where all those people you know in a like a thon process where all those people are competing for donations gives you both layers. Of the captain’s competing against each other for the most pledges, but then also all of their friends saying, oh, yeah, i want my friend to have tto shave his head back in the dark. Days before before, i knew you as well as i do. Those were the dark days. They were. Well, they were more your doctor, darker for you. If you’re going, there were much darker for you before you knew me then. And then before i knew you. I was used to now, so you’ve even like you, really? You haven’t liked me because i used to pay more attention to vanity metrics, then you and i have talked about vanity tricks, and i’m going to give the quintessential example of it in a second. I pay less attention to those things now more involved in the more thinking about the engagement, and i was paying at that time very close attention to the number of facebook like likes, likes of the show’s facebook page, and this was a couple of years ago, and i wanted to get to three hundred and i don’t remember where we started, right? But i with some high school friends of mine who were willing tto co chair, the campaign, i issued the blue pedicure challenge, and i said that i would get a blue pedicure if friends from anywhere but the two friends from high school with cochair radcampaign if we would get to three hundred likes and of course we did get the three hundred likes within a certain time is like two weeks or so. We’ve got three hundred and and i went across the street from the studio. Here, there’s, just get up on the second floor. There’s a salon and i got a blue pedicure and i had a video it’s sons on the youtube channel. It was great fun. Yeah, and people said, you know, a soon as we got the three hundred are weighted the blue pedicure. Yeah, it’s only gonna make good on the way we want to see the photo so i had video of me making my appointment, which was won. And then i picked my color. Nice different shades of blue, of course. Of course i picked my blue color. And then i went back a week later for my appointment, and i upgraded to the paraphernalia axe also, i got the paraphernalia. I don’t even know what that means, but well, they put your feet in warm wax. Oh, interesting wax. Okay, yeah. I don’t know what i’m supposed to soften. I think too interesting. That was my first and last pedicure left so many questions now, so well, they’re all answered on the video there i’ll go to the video i block i met blogged it too. I know it’s on the but certainly it’s on youtube blue pedicure challenge you took a multi-channel approach to this pedicure experience i did that’s true, because we campaign was in multi-channel on dh then the impact in the outcome were were probably blawg and certainly facebook on dh youtube e did take multi-channel provoc any other and plenty of engagement, lots of engagement it was great fun. Yeah, it was good. So pie in the face you use the pie in the face. Example in the back. There’s. A picture of someone one of the few pictures in the book has someone getting those lots of graphs and good pictures. Has someone getting a pie in the face and there’s a picture of alison’s dog in the book leah leah lida lida lida like peter with a now okay, why is why is there dog picture? Because they adopted her. And so there’s ah, case study in there about an adoption campaign. Okay, so there you go. There’s a picture and it’s a cute. I didn’t say there were no pictures. I said it’s not enough to suit me. Wait, we’re coming out in the fall with color book edition graphic novel way have just about a minute before break let’s talk about the last area of motivation sharing impact you and i talked about this before, but let’s just remind listeners how important that is. Yeah, and it doesn’t have to be, you know, i think a lot of organizations when they think sharing impact, they think, okay, well, you know what? The campaign’s over wilson, an email that says, we got all of the money and now we’re going to do though nothing. There we go, that’s the report, but but there’s versions of sharing impact that are kind of like evergreen content. You know, the putting, putting some of your expenditures or big, successful things in the footer of your email. So anytime someone goes in the photo of your website, anytime someone goes your website, they see this is how much money is being devoted two programs, and this is what those programs have created or whatever. There’s also reached the research that shows on donation forms where you actually show the impact of the money people donate more so again, just just keeping it really clear, clear and present all the time as an opportunity, right? Wait, go away for a couple minutes. And when we come back, of course, amy stays with me, and i hope that you do, too. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy. Fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Hyre more with amy sample ward coming up first pursuant their info graphic it is five steps to win at data driven fund-raising i’m always telling you that they are data driven here’s the proof this cool infographic shows you how to define your fund-raising goals what the most important metrics are and how to optimize to get your best fund-raising results be data driven, you should be it’s a good way to live you’ll find the infographic at pursuing dot com you’re quick resource is then infographics! How much simpler could it be? We’d be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. You need money for your good work. I know you do throw a spelling bee and don’t get knocked out if you participate, don’t if don’t get knocked out on the word lettuce like i did in seventh grade that sucked, and to this day i can’t look ahead of iceberg lettuce because that’s all we had when i was in seventh grade iceberg was all we had. Now, of course, we’ve got bib and boston greenleaf red leaf, you could even throw shard in some people. Consider kale, let us so much broader let us spectrum now, but it was iceberg, then i can’t i can’t even eat iceberg plus it’s not very nutritious, i think, but i can’t look ahead ahead of iceberg lettuce without getting a stomach churn, so don’t get knocked out in the world. Let us check out the video at we b e spelling dot com, then talk to the ceo alex greer. Do it now. Time for tony’s take two hello and c tech for good. I was at that conference last month in north carolina and delivered my first workshop on podcasting. I’ve talked about planned e-giving and charity registration through the decades to be precise, but i finally they persuaded me actually to do something on podcasting, and i went outside my comfort zone and now it’s in my comfort zone, so i did it once, so expert on, but i’ve been doing it a long time, so the weapon are that it wasn’t a webinar was a workshop live in face-to-face it was five lessons from seven years of non-profit radio and hello to all the smart nufer philantech folks that i met there, there were few listeners there and insiders getting the insider alerts. Hello, jean lisa, caitlin heather stephanie, tiffani good luck with that podcasting project that you’re tryingto trying to get kicked off there. There were no guy listeners or insiders, there was always all women i don’t know it’s all un enlightened tech men in north carolina for some reason, i don’t know why many thanks for hosting me and see tek for good. Glad to have been with you, and that is tony’s take two here’s more with amy sample ward and me on her book social change. Anytime everywhere. Welcome back big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent there’s a bunch of you on facebook, there’s a bunch of you on twitter and join the conversation with those already there on twitter, use the hashtag non-profit radio thanks for joining us multi-channel let’s see what you bring in-kind caroline, caroline caroline xero eyes are san antonio is that i believe. Shut up, san antonio. Um okay, so we’re all about multi-channel we should have a plan for our multi-channel now. Engagement strategy. Turns out we are too, right? Yeah. You want to have goals? You and i have talked about some of this before, but right, putting it all together now. And you’ve put it together in a book, so it’s ah it’s worth it’s worth revisiting the stop? Yes, because they are important our multi-channel plan goals, but how are we going to figure out where we want to be? Well, especially for fund-raising you know, goals have to be really specific. It’s hard to say we’re going to do this year and campaign because we would like to raise some money and you know where we’re soup kitchen, we do things that are important, although important, not compelling has a goal for your staff to even create a campaign out of, but also for your donors to want to support. But if you can say if we raise this much money, it will actually give us this many meals in this much time, you know, three hundred meals over the course of the month. If we can raise this much money, people then can imagine both you know what their actual like hundred dollar donation means as faras how much is served, but it also sets you up to do more than your asking, you know, if you say we’re we’re shooting for ten thousand dollars and that gives us three hundred meals for the month of january as soon as you get close to the goal. It’s really easy to say terrific. Now, if we get ten thousand more, we can feed everyone for february two instead of those campaigns that you see where they’ve done a really great job, they’ve activated their community, and once it starts, they actually start raising a lot of money and then they get to the end and they think terrific close down shop, you know, the thermometer reached the top instead, you’re setting yourself up to go is much, you know, raise as much as you can in the time that you’re planning to run the campaign, and you also set yourself up. If, in case you don’t reach your number, you’re still able to report back in a successful way of saying, you know, we had high hopes of raising ten thousand and we didn’t get there, but we’re still have enough to do two hundred bills this month, and this is how you could help us, you know, after the holidays to serve those last hundred or whatever. So giving yourself a really clear goal lets you iterated kind. Of as the campaign goes and respond to how how it’s doing important, do you think tio have a time limit to your your fund-raising goal? Definitely ah lot, whether you have one week or a one month or however long that the time is, you’re going to see an initial tick and then a big drop in the valley and then as it gets closer, you know, everyone starts donating again, so it doesn’t really i mean, technically, it matters. You don’t want to say this is a yearlong donation campaign, but whatever the duration, is it’s really clear or it’s, really important to be clear about when the end date is so that people know? Okay? It’s coming oh, my gosh, i better donate now and and they actually respond to that e mail instead of just saying, oh, well, i could do it next time i remember or next time i have my wallet now we’re gonna have to figure out how to message, right? That’s it just campaign so that should be a part of our our plan also, exactly and a lot of organizations, you know when when starting to think about a campaign fund-raising or otherwise get really excited in that staff meeting when you start brainstorming like the catchphrase of the campaign, you know, and that can be fun and enjoyable, but very rarely are the witty catchphrase is actually the things that include the action and the ask so don’t spend too much time thinking of like balloons for ur or whatever like crazy thing that maybe is related to the campaign is because you want to make sure whatever very simple phrasing you use and then build your campaign off of includes the aschen, the action so what, you know, give or do this thing for, you know, this many meals in this time? And then once you have that core messaging, yu khun, start planning out of communications calendar that’s reflective of all those channels you want to use remembering, of course, offline or direct mail and not just e mail, etcetera. The other part about messaging that i see organizations forget about is is they concentrate on how they’re going to launch the campaign, and their communications calendar will say, you know, here’s, the first email that goes out and here’s how we’re going to decorate our facebook page. And rebranded there’s no date in that planet’s launch plan on them. Exactly, exactly for exaggeration plan. Sometimes organizations say, well, you know, we want to be responsive, we want to wait and see how it goes. Well, that’s totally fine, but you could still say our plan is to send a second email day three of the campaign, and we’ll be able to say what you contribute and you need to have planned out when you’re going to message so that you can say, great if day three, we’re going to send it on update email let’s, make sure later that afternoon facebook has an update as well, and not just another, you know, status report or something, so it helps you maintain a good flow across your channel. So it’s not always responsive and you’re you know, twitter isn’t just thanks, thanks, thanks, but also has things to share out. You know, that match your other communications you meant now you mentioned offline also. So this is that we’re not just talking about online social social networks, but the offline strategies should be coordinated, if that’s the way that you’re right, typically engaging with people, right? And some organizations may plan an offline launch event the day that the campaign is launching, so of course, you know there’s a lot to do there. But it’s also a good reminder to to capture content from that launch event that you can use throughout the campaign. If you have a bunch of people in one place, make sure summer your staff have their phones or flip cameras or something to take some videos, and then you have maybe half a dozen videos you can use during the course of the campaign that again, just bring up on individual story give you some divers content, etcetera, you know, whatever kinds of content you could pull from that live event. But it’s also a good reminder that many organizations, even while running a campaign, have other work that you’re doing. And so maybe you have a press event about some of your other work. Use that as an opportunity. Once the press component of that piece is over, you know you’re done talking about that policy change. You have a room full of people, then say great, you know, this is all done. I had now want to talk to you about this campaign we’re running, and we’re on day five and it’s going really well and here’s the story take advantage of all those offline opportunities to engage people kayman sample. Ward is a cz membership director of and ten, which you’ll find it, and ten dot org’s and the book that we’re talking about whether that she co authored is social change anytime everywhere you khun follow amy on twitter she’s at amy r s ward at which we know stands for rene the artist for rene and her block is amy sample ward, dot or ge? Get some more live listener love madison, wisconsin, tustin, california. Salem, oregon welcome, salem. Welcome you’re in. So you were in the salem several months ago. You were in somewhere in oregon. Weren’t portland, portland not very far away. Okay, italy, we don’t know what city in italy we just have a vague reference to italy. Bon giorno, chow. Welcome live listener love also tio sudbury in ontario, canada, and barnaby burnaby. Pardon me, burnaby in british columbia, canada. Two provinces welcome canada he’s offline strategies. Amy um, could also be so for aside from events direct mail if you usually using that. Channel telephone. Yeah, right. This these could all be coordinated in your three day or one week or one month campaign. Yeah, especially if you have stories that you know you’re going to use ahead of time in your campaign. You know things that you’ve collected in the past, because if you khun send a direct mail piece, especially just something simple, like, ah, postcard or, you know, an invitation to participate in the campaign that is from that person or telling that person story has their photo, and then two days later, you can send them an email that says, great now the campaign’s open and it has that same story. People then can say, yes, i know that story. I ready to kim. You know, i’m ready to join or actually remember that they’ve signed up with your organization at all, and that they should be engaging in this campaign. And that direct mail piece wasn’t a like mistake in their mailbox in their apartment building. What do we know about how donors give across multi-channel versus more traditional the off for the strictly off line? Well, that data is changing every year is we actually get more and more data at all have more people that we can ask survey, etcetera and and organizations are also becoming more sophisticated with being able to track there donors with they came from online or not, and then just able to report that data so it’s getting more it’s getting clearer every year, but really, we know that people that are online aren’t just saying because i found you online, i want to give to online or because i found you offline. I want to give to offline there’s actually a lot of back and forth that happens. And for most people, even if they are millennials, where people think for some reason, you know, young people only ever look at facebook even if they found you on social media, they still come to your website tto learn about your work and figure out if they want to donate to you so that relationship, maybe on facebook, that relationship may be off line at events they attend, but they still want to go to your website where they can kind of take control of what they’re looking at on your website and learn about your work. So it’s still really important that you have information on your website, but also that you provide that donation, ask an opportunity button, what have you on your website so that once they go there and learn about you, they could take that action? We also know that activists are seven times more likely to be donors, so we can’t treat people like, well, this is my activist list in this database and over here is my donor list because those activists are totally primed to now give you money, they just put their name on a bunch of work for you, they might as well, you know, give you ten dollars, so it isn’t just about allowing them to come to you wherever you are, but also making sure you’re giving everyone the opportunity to to engage in donation or fund-raising asks, excellent, uh, keeping with our multi-channel a z, i said you could join us on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio there’s some folks on the facebook page and we have a phone call. We have tim. Tim, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you very much. Hi, dad. Uh, that’s adorable. Dad called? Yes. That’s to sweden. Where you where you calling from? Amy sample wards. Dad. Well, i work important oregon, but amy was raised, and we live out in the country outside of portland. Okay. And, uh, of course, her mother knew first and called me and said, oh, my god, going to computer your daughter’s on the radio. I just had to get on here, listen and tell everybody i see how proud i am of this. Oh, thank you, dad. I love you. Now i hope you’re gonna listen. Other shows to tim, you know. Oh, i will now want you to be a regular starters down there. Yeah. Do you have? Do you have a question? You really want to ask amy? Yeah. When’s. He coming home. This’s too sweet. I love this. I’ll see you on saturday. You will at a girl. Alright. Financial proud of you, amy. Thank you, dad. Nice to meet you to let me on it’s. A pleasure to meet you, tim. If you want to, if you want. To ask a question of amy, you can call eight seven seven for eight xero for one, two, zero, eight, seven, seven for eight xero for one to zero. Or you can also treat us. We’re monitoring the hashtag and the facebook page. That’s. A very nice way of saying you’re stalking social media in case people ask questions. Here in the studio, i’m busy talking now control. We want to engage people in our messages, whether they’re online offline and you talk about the hooks we have just a little we have a minute before a break, what? Just once you just tease the idea of of the hook a little bit? Sure, i mean, different people have different ideas of messaging hooks and what you can do, but i think for people really thinking about multi-channel campaigns, the important idea of ah huh, look, is that that’s the consistent piece you’re going to throw in so that whether you’re maybe sharing a photo and a story of someone on facebook that day or you’re sharing a big infographic about, you know, all this work that’s going into the campaign or maybe it’s just tweets about simple actions people can take you use a consistent hooked to bring them back into the campaign. So when isn’t just like this photo or share this info graf or, you know, retweet this step, but there’s an additional hook that always connects it backto larger campaign so people don’t think, oh, the campaign must be over, and now they’re just sharing info graphics. But but that there’s always some peace. Hooking it all together, so it, you know, you want to break the campaign and into individual stories, individual images and smaller actions, but they have to be connected. Otherwise, people don’t get why am i doing this today? And i did this other thing yesterday. We’re going to go away for a couple minutes when we come back, amy, and i’ll keep talking about your your multi-channel plan and what should be in it, including the goals and the messages in the hook that we’re talking about. Stay with me. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked, and they are levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising duitz just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio dahna. Welcome back. I’ve got more live listener love asia so well represented inchon, china sold. I’m sorry. Inchon, korea in john career where the airport is, everybody knows that. Inchon, korea, seoul, korea welcome. Manolo haserot food out. China shanghai, china taipei, taiwan ni hao. Amy, did you know all these languages? No, i have been to korea, but i don’t remember much more than hello. Were you at the airport in inchon? No, you don’t know. You went to see flora. Different airport. I i flew into seoul and then hopped over. Teo, you know we’re other places. Okay, um, the these these little hooks you you have some ideas about matches the hook in as part of your your message plan might be that you have a campaign match which could be which could be motivating to people to give. I thought you meant matches like to ignite striking matches. Right, that’s. Why? I could see the look on your face. Keep talking until you come back till it’s. In my reality, we need to show some reality. Um, yes, matches are a great way. As you know, in a fund-raising like retirement today campaign. Especially when you know that money is already guaranteed you don’t necessarily have to just recruit a matching sponsor, you could say, well, the sponsors giving us ten thousand dollars anyway, let’s give this sponsor more visibility, give them more value as a sponsor, but also leverage that to get more individual donations. So saying, you know, this sponsor is goingto give for every one of your dollars, and we want to get up to ten thousand just like, you know, they will match or to say, you know, every time you do this action, they will donate so that way you can, you know, maybe you don’t necessarily have a fundraising campaign that’s pure fund-raising but you want people thio maybe donate, you have this sponsor that’s going to donate the bulk of the funds, but you really want to get some behavior change in your community. So the diabetes hands foundation did a great campaign what’s the actual fall diabetes hands foundation and you know, they’re they’re focused on people with diabetes and really making behavioral change so that they have healthier lives and and are healthier people. So they had a campaign where there was a matching sponsor, so they were going to donate every time people exercise for thirty minutes and then took did their test so that they were being able to see from their own results that when they took a test than exercise for thirty minutes and then took another test, how much better their results were blood a lecture on and then you report that. So so go onto the website or goto instagram and share a photo of view exercising and to prove that exercising for thirty minutes doesn’t mean you drive all the way to the gym. You change your clothes, you know, you do the thing, whatever it could just mean taking your dog for a walk that’s twice as long as normal. So you actually get to thirty minutes instead of maybe, you know, ten or fifteen around the block and realizing you don’t have to go out of your way to be exercising every day and still see those positive results in yourself. So every time you posted that you did the testing and you exercise into the test again, then the sponsor was going to donate. So of course you have all these people that for one month no. Every time i do this thing that i should do anywhere, you know, they’re going to donate money and then because you’ve done it for an entire month, and even if you only did it once a week, that was already for five times that you’ve taken this positive action and seeing how easy it is, and you’re that much more likely to continue that behavior outstanding. I love how it’s so closely tied to exactly what they’re what they’re mission exactly, exactly improvement of health, of people with diabetes. Exactly. So now, if we have these messages now, we need to identify who they’re going to go out, too and where where they’re gonna go out? What? Which way said you and i are always saying, you want to go to people where they are exactly, but it’s also not the same message, every single place i mean, we have all experienced those campaigns where an organization sends you an email and then post on facebook like the exact same two paragraphs that they just sent you in an email, and then you don’t hear from them for the entire month, and they’re just waiting for the response to come in, so recognizing that you’re going to have some consistent messages throughout the campaign, like we talked about with the campaign communications calendar, but also that they’re going to be slightly different and nuance. So you may see on facebook people not really catching the campaign, not really engaging, and yet you see people on twitter going crazy and sharing that information, so you’re going to have to address the facebook community, maybe with less information about the campaign, maybe that community is just saying we’re not really interested, so don’t be posting every single day, but otherwise they’re definitely going to tune out, whereas you could start engaging twitter more because people are really responding there. So it’s it’s also recognizing where to pull back and not just okay? Well, we’re going to send the ask everywhere another channel that you and i haven’t talked about it, we just have about a minute left. So is mobile yet for people who have given you permission, yeah, say little about mobile mobile is great for engaging people, especially in the middle of the campaign where you could send attacks that says, hey reminder, tomorrow is going to be the last day. So today, when you get home, you should donate or even include in the text the link so that they could go from there, you know, text message on their smartphone over to the to the web and donate their so long as you’ve actually optimized your website. So from a phone, the for the forum doesn’t look like this weird gobbledygook. Amy sample ward she’s, co author of social change anytime everywhere i’m very grateful that she’s, our regular social media contributor thank you. I really enjoyed having you on. Do you have so much banter with others? I want to believe that i give you the hardest time. Okay, well, i want then i in that case, i want you to continue believing that the book is social change anytime, everywhere get the book. We just talked about a small part of it. We talked about the fund-raising portion, but it’s all about engagement and increasing advocacy. Moving the needle on engagement get this book it’s ah it’s on you’ll find it on amazon social change anytime everywhere amy’s blogger is amy sample ward, dot or ge? And on twitter she’s at amy rs ward amy thanks so much, thank you, real pleasure every time next week. Social change. Anytime, everywhere, part do you gotta get this book for pizza it’s. Really? Very, very good. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. Responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we b e spelling dot com, a creative producer is claire miree off sam lee boots is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. Show social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that information, scotty with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and degree. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visit physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for February 17, 2017: Don’t Burn Out In 2017 & Personalized Video

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Paul Loeb: Don’t Burn Out In 2017

Paul Loeb

Paul Loeb has been doing social change since the Vietnam War and his most recent books are “Soul Of a Citizen” and “The Impossible Will Take a Little While.” After nearly 50 years of activism, he has a lot to recommend about keeping yourself motivated day-after-day, especially in a time when nonprofits may suffer federal cutbacks. We talked at Opportunity Collaboration 2015 in Ixtapa, Mexico.

 

 

 

 

Michael Hoffman & Jono Smith: Personalized Video
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Are your videos engaging? Do they deepen your donor connections? Are you taking advantage of video personas? Is video part of your donor onboarding and retention strategies? If you answered “no” to any of these, Michael Hoffman and Jono Smith can help you. Michael is with See3Communications and Jono is from Make-A-Wish America. We talked at the 2016 Nonprofit Technology Conference.

 

 


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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with ad elect assists if you deflated me with the notion that you missed today’s show, don’t burn out in twenty seventeen paul lobe has been doing social change since the vietnam war, and his most recent books are soul of a citizen, and the impossible will take a little while. After nearly fifty years of activism, he has a lot to recommend about keeping yourself motivated day after day, especially in a time when non-profits may suffer federal cutbacks. We talked at opportunity collaboration twenty fifteen in x top of mexico and personalized video or your videos engaging and deepening your donor connections. Are you taking advantage of video personas? Is video part of your donor onboarding and retention strategies? If you answered no to any of these, michael hoffman and jonno smith can help you. Michael is with c three communications and jonno smith is from make a wish america we talked at the twenty sixteen non-profit technology conference on tony’s take two is your thanks sincere? We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here is paul lobe with advice on not burning out. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of opportunity collaboration twenty fifteen we’re back on the beach in x top of mexico with me is paul lobe he’s, the author, most recently of soul of a citizen and the impossible will take a little while, plus three other books before those those two have sold over a quarter million copies, you’ll find paul lobe at the impossible dot org’s polo. Welcome to the show. Glad to be here. Thanks. I’m glad we’re together on the beach. I want to talk about avoiding burnout. A lot of your work for decades. Going back to the seventies is in activism. Citizen activism, right? Um, taco, actually, let’s. Start with a cool story that i heard you tell about rosa parks. So it’s. Interesting. Because rosa parks is the sort of story that everyone thinks they know. You know i can go. I can be overseas and people know the name i can talk to eleven year olds and they know the name. Oh, yeah. She’s the lady on the bus. But what’s interesting to me is that most people know in a certain version and they know it as one day she was writing on this bus and sort of just feed retired. She just refused out of nowhere and single handedly launched the civil rights movement. You know, all by yourself is this lone heroic woman. And i get very frustrated when i hear that story because it strips away the context that’s so important understand that actually is much more empowering that that story and so i look in there several elements there’s the one he is that’s, their mistake, the element of community. So she at that point is the secretary of the end of the civil rights organization in montgomery, alabama. And she has worked for dozen years with the p co founded by her husband. That particular chapter was a barber in the city and she’s doing these sort of humble towns, like getting people to come to meetings and all the stuff that certainly is not going to make the history books. Or the network news or even page six of the local paper. And when you take that away and you take out all the other people that she’s working with, it becomes a sort of lone crusade, which is very much a mythology of our culture. I mean, you know, one of things i sometimes bright lad in the language around social on ownership is lone hero super person. Yeah, but she’s, part of a community that she’s built there’s, others in it. There’s ah, a union organizer, gotomeeting nixon who’s, the head of the local. At that point, he’s, the person who gets a very young and relics on martin luther king involved king is all these excuses. He’s young he’s, new in town is thing was reluctant to join. He was reluctant to join. Yeah, he’s reluctant step for we think of them as leaping forward, but at that point, he has not really fully he’s not embraced that path. He’s still, you know, well, i i’ve got divinity school. I’m going to be a minister and it’s not at all clear that that’s going to be his direction. So he’s looking, i think warily at it and there’s a phrase i used the perfect standard, which is the notion that you need to know everything be the perfect place in your life, be the combination of sort of albert einstein, gandhi, king wonder woman, mother grace, you know, add seven other people, you know, none of us is ever going to get there so and it’s also about the perfect time and place and, of course, he’s saying, well, it’s, not the perfect time in place. I’m too young, i’m do knew all the excuses, you know, in his case elements of truth, but he’s their excuses. And so it’s nixon, who persists, gets king involved, and montgomery is where the world hears the king as well as in rosa parks. So when you strip that away and you make it the long hero, it ends up, i would say, being very disempowering to people, even though think it’s an inspiring story because they have to be as her work as a perceived princessa rosa parks perceived rosa parks as opposed to the real heroism which is doing the stuff day after day after day. Um, and then the second element is that they think it is. A sort of accidental action one day, her feet hurt, but there she wasn’t. The first person refused to move to the back of the bus. There was a young woman who was actually unmarried and pregnant. They just died not from the youth section, not to build a campaign around because they’re up against enough as it is latto strategic decision and these parks had got the summer before arrests, going to trainings at a place called highlander center labor and civil rights center still going in tennessee despite being burned at once by the group klux klan and so she’s meeting with an earlier generation of civil rights activists smaller move but still certainly present and when she acts it’s intentional, intentional doesn’t mean she knows the outcome. I always said that there’s a two, two aspects one is, you’ve got to have a leap of faith. The minister, jim waller’s, from the social justice magazine sojourner, says hope is believing in spite of the evidence and then watching the evidence change. Yeah, so, you know, by your actions, you change and you have believe it faith about the possibility, but right next to that is intentionality, which just means you’ll be strategic. So you’re looking at you’re saying, ok, what do want accomplished? How do we get there? Who are allies are the obstacles? How do we get the resource is how do we carry it out? How do we tell our stories? All the practical stuff? Of course they had to deal with that montgomery and and when parks took that leap, she also knew that it was going to be part of intentional campaign. They would run his best they could. And, you know, they’d see where lead and it is. Yeah. I love the story because of the intentionality aspect, and that leads us to the social change work the people are doing now, right? And where we get to the potential for burn out in all this day after day after day after work that is so intentional and so time consuming, right? And and so and so emotionally fraught. And the stakes could be life and death and disappointing. Yes. And i just ate pointing. Yeah, yeah. You know, never enough resource is all of those kinds of things. So so i think there’s a third element. That’s missing is perseverance, which is okay, you know, twelve years, if she gives up in your tender rate, we’ve never so and so and so that that carries into that question of burnout persisted. You have to keep going. So let’s spend some time talking about sort of empowering people toe, right? Not burn out in their day to day work as they’re going about their struggles. Where? Wherever in the world yeah, you, uh you believe a lot in, uh, support and they do, and the disempowerment of isolation isolation is the killer. I mean, when you feel like you’re the only one you’re up against every but when you change it to okay, we’re up against a lot, but there is a way and the wii doesn’t have to be thousands of people. It can be three or four people that are the ones that you rely on, but it’s so easy. I mean, i i find myself i run a project that i found it that gets students engaged in elections using the resource is of the colleges and universities. Shut that out. What’s the name the campus election engagement project. Campus elect a door ad it’s really demanding on dh. You know, resource is and on also sometimes, you know, really hard personnel situations and, you know, because this comes up, you hire people and sometimes problems like you and i remember one particularly acute situation, which really, wass i mean, it was just the kind of thing we are going to details that just wrenches your heart wrenches your soul on it had the potential to destroy the organization and and just trying to deal with my own. And then, you know, call. I talked to a friend who we have really wonderful street newspaper in seattle where i live real change that where homeless people sell it and it’s partly professional staff partly almost poses a great model. And, you know, i just called my friend who who ran it was like, ok, tim, why don’t i d’oh it’s like, you know, you really you know, this is something that you can’t you’re not large enough to handle the son, you know, you know, when you know, you just hear this, you have to be ableto, you know, hard as it is to say, this person can’t be apart the organization because, you know, it’s just this otherwise you’ll be in constant crisis, so we need to have support. Yeah, it could be it could be colleagues similarly situated right in the community or across the country, right? Yeah, could be, yeah, with funders even made the tech with the technologies we have, you know, it doesn’t have to be geographically focused. Yeah, but you do have tohave and you have to have a team of folks. I mean, on the other side is we’re doing, like, i mean, i’m asking people in my election project to basically take the culture of us college or university, get access to the administration, and we go in through sametz works that they tend to work with, but even still, you know, and the student government convinced them to do something that they haven’t done before, or now that some of them now they have done because they worked with us, which is to make a priority of registering their students to vote and getting to reflect on issues and helping them turnout at the polls in all non partisan is this school has to be done lorts ad and i mean, we’re just think, okay, here it is, here’s how we’ve done it before go do it and so it’s hard. So, you know, part of even like working it’s harder working virtually, but we have our conference calls each, you know, in the heat of it every week and me, we’re gonna do a video or we don’t go hang out or whatever, and we’re supporting each other. We’re appreciating each other’s successes were brain streaming through the through the project. We also have coaching the cohesion in the group is what sort of were being extremely were being extremely intentional. The cohesion doesn’t happen automatically were laughing and making jokes talking about, oh, did something cool happened in your personal life? Two be able to sort of give people the sense that it’s not just because in our particular case, they really are physically on their own there’s not somebody in an office, but they’re off on a college campus know weather off where they happen to live, and then they’re either talking by phone or visit making site this is tow campuses, but they don’t have the calling next to them. So we try and very intentionally create that community because otherwise they would they will burn. Out, you’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy. Fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Dahna about in in recruitment, there’s gotta be there’s gotta be things that you look for bringing people to the organization that are going to help create this cohesion, you know, it’s a good question, i’m not, and i wouldn’t say i’ve always been perfect at it. I would have had my share of a fallibility, but i do think that, you know, as i learn and we all do, you know that being able to i mean, have a strong sense of self but also know that you’re not going to do it all on your own know that you’re going to be working with others no, that have a sense of humor. I mean, if you’ve got a sense of humor, helps help cement slim and you see people in just, you know, dealing with the hardest i lost the vote, heart wrenching situations and there’s a sort of i mean, somebody called gallows humor, which french trenches humor has in-kind wartime or whatever guys get you through it’s so important in prison culture, they talk about the brotherhood of suffering, yeah, it helps to be that cohesive group, right? And so, you know, one of the stories i tell in the impossible, take a little while. Um, is, you know, they’re breaking it robben island prison in south africa, you know, they’re telling mandela and all those other folks, you know, you are going to rot here, the world has forgotten about you, you will never leave here alive, and they isolate him in every way they can. And so they’re breaking rocks in a prison courtyard, and they start whistling a freedom song and just just that, you know, okay, we’re not allowed to have this political conversation, but we all know what this means, and they’re they’re ice. They’re denied newspapers and, you know, further isolate him. And they said guard who’s got his tuna fish sandwich wrapped in a newspaper and throws, you know, sandwich stores in his paper in the trash, take it surreptitiously under their shirt. They see a story that they think might give each other heart and in a kind of coded script on toilet paper’s only paper, most of them had access to the right, you know, just something that will tell that story of the outside world so that people are connected to the outside world to each other. And then they pass it hand in hand, you know, when they’re waiting, you know, had lunch or whatever the damn chance or in the yard. Yeah, so it’s just it’s those air extreme situations, but they also suggests to me that and this is the lesson of both soul of a citizen and be impossible to take a little while, but that in any situation, you know, you don’t have to be faced in prison. But if you’re doing difficult work, you need that camaraderie. You need that community. And you have gotta be we know recently intentional about trading it about, uh, the scope of the work of the organization being judicious about what the organization takes on, right. So it’s not straying from mission and and stressing stressing in killing staff? Well, yeah, i think we are. I mean, i think we all face that challenge because if you’re trying to do something, i mean, i was the needs are so great, the needs are so great, and i always encourage people to think really large and to tackle big systems on a lot of times. There’s a tendency to sort of yeah, which i describe it. It’s i think there’s a value in that more delimited personal work, it’s i don’t want to demean it in any way. Hyre but i remember stanford students saying very well meaning lee, i’ve learned so much volunteering at this homeless shelter, i hope my grandchildren get the opportunity to volunteer at the same homeless shelter that i have and as his friends sort of try to gently remind him that really wasn’t the point. And so if you’re working at the homeless shelter, which is great, you wantto look upstream and you want to be able to say, okay, what am i learning from this one on one encounter? And how do i buy-in with others and join together others to tackle homelessness on a larger platform? Because if you don’t it’s just going to the endless parade of need, so i think that that’s true and at the same time well, where do you draw the bounds? And you look around the issues and there’s poverty and inequality and climate change and, you know, on and on and on, you know, police violence, i’m not stone on on on how do you deal with all of it? And so i think part of it is just you do have to think about what your capacity is. You do have to think about the past people. I tend to be somebody who thinks large and tries to get my project on staff to think large and probably, you know, maybe drives them a little too hard. But by national directories is wonderful. Twenty eight year old is pretty good at balancing, like, all right, you know, this is what we can ask people to do. And if they do it, well, that will matter. But i have this wonderful friend who i nufer years who died at a hundred to is an environmental activist. And of course, you know what time she reaches her. You know, late eighties and nineties, you know, you’re asking your weather sees her secret of longevity is certainly but also her secret of being able to keep doing this work. Yeah, on and so, you know, one of the phrases she does that you know, you you do what you can, you can’t do everything you have to say no to people, but you can do what you can and then you could do some more and you could do that your entire life. And then she also another point she was talking about reviving our spirits and she said, you know, you go kayaking, you go hiking, she both into her nineties and she gets the mist of a smile and she says, then you come back ready to take on exxon, you know, so she’s willing to take on exxon, but she also knows that she has to go do those other things to renew her soul, you know? And, you know, and humor and just she and this sort of goes to the recruitment to you, right? You recruiting hole people? Yeah, you have other interests beyond the work that you’re you’re hiring them for your not recruiting robot? Yeah, no, absolutely. And so i think having, you know, having people who really are just i mean, it’s hard because i always want people who are passionate about the cause, but also but not one dimensional, but no one dimensional. Yeah, yeah, and not, you know, we’re not recruiting robots aboutthe aboard as potential support you, you know, in times again, times of burnout, we’re not talking about your fiduciary responsibilities. But hyre valuable to have a couple of trusted board members who, you know, i would you can’t trust confide in i mean, i would say the trusted people can be anywhere, so i think, you know, if they’re on the board that’s terrific, you know? And there was also i mean, sometimes you sort of worry, will you exposure in, er, you know, the afraid of the classic phrase about politics and sausage making it’s like you really don’t want to see how the sausage is made? I mean, there was there was at least those those sure are meat eaters and made sausage sometimes i really don’t want to see how it’s made and, you know, do you expose the inner workings that boardmember than thinking, oh, my god, this is like, you know, we’re in crisis, we’re in crisis, you know, you know, and the same thing’s true with funders, i mean, certainly myself, you know, there’s funders who i have a very serious, trusting relationship who really do want to know and who i trust if they recognise that, oh, everything is not going perfectly, but this is true in any organization and is not and he’s, perfectly compatible with doing astounding work, you know, i remember i had a staffer once was running operation brilliant, brilliant guy and you, you know, innovated. A lot of the things that moved us forward is an organization, but at one point he liked the plan, which is good because he brought. He brought us to a higher level of planning, and planning is really good. But at one point, he said, it’s supposed to election is that you planned all this stuff out and, you know, it’s all going out, it’s all happening, different blade, yeah, and i’m like and yes, and that’s always going to be the way it iss. It is gonna happen differently, and the planning was good and it makes us respond, you know more effectively, but there’s always going to be if you’re doing anything worthwhile, ambitious enough to be worthwhile, there are always gonna be things coming in from left field on her balls and what not and it’s just. How about sort of going backto what the one hundred two year old activist saying she kayaks, etcetera, right? And he’s mischievous? I mean, i remember a lot of us hundred to you talk. I think there are like he was busy in your party little chablis apartment lived on second, section eight subsidence dilgence social security, which, when she was twenty three years old, as a young union activists, should help lobbied through one of the first public pension programs in america became a model for social security, so something she did in twenty three or four benefits there are ninety eight, ninety nine, one hundred, and i think her i can’t see what she was talking about her landlord and said, well, you know what? If something happens, you know? Yeah, just dig a hole in the backyard. I’m pretty small. I don’t take up my face, you know? She just was she didn’t know there was one point there was was in central america, something there was a congressman she met. She was very active with the audubon society and and who very condescendingly in the way that when does towards the old than the young sort. Said to her, oh, so i hear you’re a birdwatcher like, isn’t that? And she said, yes, there’s a lot of birds in washington d c that need watching these days, but i was thinking of the kayaking, she she takes care of herself, she takes care of its just got this wonderful sense of humor, right? And she’s a kayaker and yes, you know, so having similar to recruiting people who aren’t one dimensional, not being one dimensional yourself. Yeah, i mean, you do have to take care of yourself. You do. I’m a big proponent of naps. Yeah, i’ve blogged about the the the the love i have for napping. But whatever it is, you do need to have something outside. Yeah, yeah, i know it and it’s true. And, you know, and again, i think we all wrestle with i mean, i certainly wrestle with that it’s like, you know, on, you know, my wife’s going out to see a play. I’m she works very. She works very hard, but in a more contained space probably dad, you know? And i’m like no, i got this deadline. I got to do this, you know? But, you know, if i over the years on a runner and run in my early sixties and been running since i’m fifteen and fortunately, my knees haven’t given out and so, you know, if i go run, i also live in seattle, so i get to run by water, but, you know, if i’m traveling, lecturing on the road, it’s, like i take a break, which because i met town, make my living, you know, i take a break and i run along usually if there’s water around, i’m going to run along the river or the stream of the, you know, whatever the lake and it just, you know, physically, it flushes me, you know, they did toxicity out of you, but it also just, you know, it gives you a space and it’s it’s, you feel better afterwards? Endorphins, there’s lot to be said for endorphins, flood flow. All that stuff suppressing the stress hormones. Yeah, yeah, i can think of offhand. Well, no, gentlemen. One of them? Yeah. Suppressing those. Yeah, and building up endorphins. And yet, yeah. And i think also things like diet. Yeah. He’s getting enough sleep? Yeah, yeah. I mean, i called. I mean, i called the holy trinity of, you know, exercise diet, which includes, um, good supplements. Yeah. Ok. And after? Yeah, not not on the suicide. Very practical. And you know what? Yeah, you are dealing with serious dressed. This will help. Uh, this will lower your cortisone there’s. Another right doesn’t stretch on and, you know, and sleep, were i my sleep tends not to be that great. So i just figure okay, i’m gonna log nine hours to get a where you get seven and a half, okay? Yeah. And, you know, and that helps about switch gears a bit to the teo donor-centric team. It don’t, er burnout, right? You know, i’ve been doing this. I’ve been supporting this cause a long time. I feel like it’s time to move on. I need any advice around that. Well, i think part of what happens is people have this constant pressure to sort of see the quick short term results and a lot of times howard’s in new york by accepting the impossible take a little while the greatest story. And he talks about the optimism of uncertain. You don’t know when the moment will turn you go backto parks. Of all, the wasn’t like she was doing lots of things for twelve years, as they all were one of them little spark, but you couldn’t anticipate which and so i think, it’s very it’s, very easy to sort of say that success is for human dignity that we’ve had were inevitable civil rights movement. Of course, eventually they would have revealed gay rights in eventually. Well, our environmental challenges open question whether we will be able you do what we need. Well, we are able to do what we need climate change, but they have the will is yeah, the will for it. I mean right now, you know, the technology is there, renewables have now passed, you know, they are cheaper than coal, there are equal with fossil fuel without any externalities at all. And you know, when next molly’s it’s not even close. So but will we have the political will? I don’t know, um, it depends on us and you and the stakes are pretty ultimate because, you know, we’re talking about the habitability of the planet. So you know, when i when i look at it, you know what i what i see is donors being subject to the same schools is the rest of us buy-in possibly possibly in a more mediate wet because they’re not actual sum of money, but a lot of making sure they aren’t in the field, they’re they’re dealing with, you know, with them, you know, then the publicans of hands, possibly and it’s so and they’re getting reports, but they may not even have time to read the reports and, you know, depends on how good the people are a storytelling and so i think and, you know, let’s be honest, at least on some issues, they they may be insulated by privilege, they’re not, you know, they’re not seeing in their social circle, and i remember talking with one of our funders, and she said, well, she has a couple different pieces, like one of her groups, they are just not always down in silicon valley, they are just not at all concerned about this stuff at all and, you know, so she’s an environment that is not reinforcing her concern. Yeah, and that’s what? You know, that makes it harder to continue as a donor, then everyone’s talking about these urgent issues and oh, yeah and, you know, here you are, so you’re trying to address them, so i think you know, the challenges well for the rest of us, to try and offer that perspective in our work, which is hard because we’re often mean again, the stakes couldn’t be life and death, you know, they’re huge, even if they’re not immediately life and death wait care passionate about our families to myself, it’s like this is what we can do, and we want to put these many people on the ground in our states in time to really work with the school’s for this election and the clock is ticking and, you know, so, you know, from the donor perspective, if you want to try and really see that long term, you know, i mean, and of course, you want to be rigorous and you want all the rest of this stuff, but not get but see that long term goal is his long term goal recognized the the the short term, the short term impacts we can have, right? And but you also see the longer the wait and see how things build on the other thing i think is, you know, there’s a certain, you know, i would argue that our our culture, including certain the non-profit donor intersection, has that has adopted dahna bh session with certain kinds of measurement to the detriment of other kinds of metro meant measurement. And so it’s, metrix, metrix, metrix, metrix and i mean, i mean, i’ve been seattle in a city where it’s particularly talks, because we’ve got a tech culture, and yeah, some of the numbers could be exceptionally important. There’s, no question about that, but here’s, a story that embodies the process of what’s occurring that can be equally indicative. And so when you’re trying to evaluate impact, which is a reasonable in good thing, you want to take that broad, long term picture, and you want to get the understand all the different ripples of a particular organization. You’re supporting our considering supporting. Yeah. That that’s that can be as warm or important. Then then the numbers, you know, and not to dismiss the numbers, you know, but another way of measuring there’s qualitative, this good storytelling as well. Yeah, but, you know, in which can include numbers which can include numbers the air of i mean, you know, when i talked to donors, they know we have some very good numbers on our project. Way from our best calculations. Couple hundred thousand students who voted our last year who wouldn’t have otherwise? This is huge, you know, for a tiny minute budget of well, i have less than half a million dollar budget for that level of impact is amazing. Yeah. Yeah, we just have about a minute left or so you’ve been doing activism. What? Forty some years? Forty something years. It creeps up on you. What do you love about it? Why do you keep forty you? Why so long? What do you love? Well, some of it’s that the work continues to need to be doing dahna but some of it is that you do. I think the old skills and you build a sense of capability. And you can see, things happen that you’ve done or and this is what i would say is that everybody wait the books that i write, try it like impossible and so try to connect people to a broader stream of people working for such for social justice that started way before any of us were born and is going to continue long after we die. And if we feel connected that stream, it can help carry us, and we can help carry others. And to me that’s a lot of what keeps me doing it because it means that not only do i have a community that supports me current time, but i have a community of historical time, which i could see is supporting, and that makes you an awful lot of difference. Follow-up he’s written five books, the most recent our soul of a citizen and the impossible will take a little while you’ll find him at the impossible dot or ge paul, thank you so much. My pleasure. Been a real pleasure talking to you. Thanks a lot. On the beach on the joanie martignetti non-profit radio coverage of opportunity collaboration. Twenty fifteen. Thanks so much for being with us personalized video coming up first, pursuing they have mohr free research for you. This one is a paper it’s their e-giving outlook report. They bring in data from several industry reports, different reports and put it together with their own boots on the ground perspective as fund-raising consultants to give you precautions, opportunities and questions for discussion in your office e-giving outlook report by pursuant and it’s at. Pursuant dot com click resource is than content papers we’ll be spelling spelling bees for fund-raising have you checked out this video? You’ll see live music, dancing, standup comedy, spelling and raising money from millennials it’s that we be e spelling dot com now time for tony’s take two my video this week is, is your thanks since here less thanksgiving, i got two messages that said, thanks, but they added in promotion and solicitation that made them sound less than sincere like here’s an example. Just wanna wish you a happy thanksgiving and ask about your athletic fund-raising i’m kidding like, well, happy thanksgiving to you. And can i borrow five hundred bucks? Have you got all the insurance you need? Uh, might you be in the market for a used car happy thanksgiving i have another example of something less than sincere and a little more to say about sincerity. The video is at tony martignetti dot com that is tony steak, too, from ntcdinosaur sixteen here. Michael hoffman and jonno smith on personalized video welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc this is day three with e san jose convention center, and this interview is also part of ntc conversations. My guests now are michael’s, michael hoffman and jonno smith. We’re going to eat them in a moment. First, i have to shut out the swag item for this interview, doing one each time and this is a t shirt from canopy studios. What i like about this one is the pretty green tag i mean, they don’t just toss you a t shirt and throw it on, but comes a little pretty green ribbon, i should say pretty green ribbon. We had that to the swag pile the three day pile with a small thumb because that’s a soft item, alright. Michael hoffman and jonno smith. Michael is ceo at sea three communications. Jonno smith is director of brand marketing and digital strategy at make-a-wish america gentlemen, welcome to non-profit radio. Thank you, michael. Michael, welcome back. Thank you, it’s. Good to be back two years ago and tc believe was twentieth. Twenty fourteen. Your workshop topic donor onboarding and stewardship using personalized video to create stronger constituent ties and raise more money. Okay. That’s a mouthful. Yes. Let’s, let’s. Start with michael. You’re the c three is a video production company and marketing what’s. What is personalized video? Personalized video is away. Toe put user data inside a video to give every individual a personalized video experience. So it may say hi, tony, in the video and you get a link to that video that’s for you. So it’s almost like mail merge for video. All right, what’s the okay, i have a couple questions. Can this be done on a large scale or were absolutely so we’re not talking about recording an individual video about now we’re talking about tony. Hello, michael. Hell, john, we’re not doing that. We’re talking about automated triggers with a c r m so that we can take any data out of your database and say tony gave fifty dollars, last year. Tony, will you give one? Hundred dollars this year. Or thank you for your gift of x and the ex comes from the database. Okay? And these are called triggers. Within a video, you create a trigger to make the video so it might be a first time gift. Or it might be trying to upgrade you. And then the system will produce a video on the service side and send you a link to a video that has your name in it on way. See that people are incredibly responsive when we are customized to their own experience. How okay, if if i am the person in the video howto my lips sync with each different persons also mostly we don’t do audio we just to text on the screen so it might say hi, tony in ah in words on the screen on then there’s kind of a generic voice over. We have done it with voice and basically the way you do that would be to record, you know, the top two hundred first names, for example, and then and then have a default for names that don’t fit so most people would get you know, something that that says their name. And other people get some default, but usually that’s not necessarily worth the effort, because just seeing your name on the screen and seeing a donation amount or something specific about you, i really had an impact. Upstanding how long have we had this personalized video technology? We’ve been doing it for years, mostly for peer-to-peer fund-raising sofer run, walk and ride fund-raising mostly tto help the person who’s raising the money, who’s just a donor really ask others for money, so it’ll say, you know, tony is walking in the in the important, you know, make a wish event. Yeah, and you should support tony and and so you could just send that video to your friends, and that does the asking for you because most people don’t like to do the asking, and most people aren’t very good at it. So we’ve seen that raise money we’re doing working now with the alzheimer’s foundation and alzheimer’s association, and we’ve done for american cancer society, and we’ve done for autism speaks we’ve done from video reference it’s a very successful company. Did you develop this? We did. Yeah, we did. And there’s other other folks doing it there’s some. Companies that just do this for the corporate side, which is really what got us into the question of onboarding and stored ship on retention because we’re seeing companies like a t and t uses technology to welcome new customers to say hi, tony, this is what you ordered this when you’re billing date is this is who you know and and it keeps people are connected. I saw jonno check his watch. He’s. Well, let’s bring you in there’s a part of this. You know what? I’m speaking at a ten o’clock. Okay. Oh, my gosh. Okay, it’s. Nine. Forty. All right, we’ll try to be mined mindful of that, but i got to get these twenty one minutes out of you. All right, so how is make-a-wish using this? Well, what we’ve done is work with michael’s team to create nineteen in nine different audience personas. And historically, all of our video has been very make-a-wish centric and not focus on our constituents. Oh, and so we created dahna personas volunteer personas medical professionals because they’re very important to our wish referral process, huh? And have rolled those out across all sixty two our chapters in the us. As a framework for them to think about storytelling and video storytelling specifically in a different way. I’m not just talking about make a wish and how great we are, which we are, but we couldn’t do what we do without hundreds of different people to make witches happen. And so by featuring these different personas in our videos, it really moves make-a-wish out of the hero role and more into the mentor role and puts our constituents ahs the hero of our story. So personalized video is just one tactic in a in a bigger strategy, which is to really understand who your donors are and speak to them, you know, clear directly, personally, thoughtfully, yeah, we’ve been just really privileged partner with make a wish on figuring out who those who those folks are today and who they will be in the future and on dh, then to be helping them shift the messaging so that it really speaks to those people in their role. Yeah, it really does mean using their name that speaks to them. Yeah, right, i’m saying, but even outside the technique of personalized video, we’re doing that through all other kinds of content. Development just wanna banding that, you know, the major donor is of this age or is likely to like these things. Then when you start to create content, you speak more clearly to those people, even if you’re not using their name. Okay? And this is one of many channels that you’re communicating with courses altum staying multi-channel sure, all right, you know, you’re specifically using this for donor onboarding and retention or stewardship? How, john, how are you using it in the end? Donor-centric video technique, it’s personalized video is just one tactic that we’ve used around this donor onboarding in sword ship. Oh, okay, but well, you have video personas, though yes, so just a little bit different. We’re not at the point yet where we’re featuring the person’s name in the video, okay, but we’ve just changed the storytelling archetypes, so to speak, to focus on these different individuals and make them the folks of the video instead of it being all about us, okay, makes a lot of sense. All right, so then for onboarding michael, how how are non-profits using it or how might they? Yeah, i i think i think it’s a powerful opportunity. To say when somebody doesn’t action or does a donation to say to them, you know what you just did was really important and organisations are so focused on acquisition all the time, it’s like that new name, that first gift that they forget to amaze and delight their donors afterwards. And so the theory and we’re seeing it again in the corporate world, is that if you treat them well at the beginning and you explain what they did and why it was important, then they’re going to stay with you longer. And so we know, for example, that monthly givers often drop off after a couple months when they see this thing recurring on their credit card, but if you keep them for longer than a few months, they might stay for seven years, so just using different techniques, personalized video being one of them to really speak to them in those moments and say, hey, what you’re doing is really important and here’s the impact that it’s having and here’s people like you who are doing it and doing incredible things and making them part of the story, one of our most important metrics is donor commitment. Score, which is the non-profit equivalent of the net promoter score and we measure that on an annual basis with our donors, you have to explain what the net promote. I have george in jail on sorry twenty martignetti non-profit radio i do not know what the net promoter score is, so and i’m the on the orbiter for jorgen shell. So? So when amazon asks you, how likely you to recommend amazon to a friend on a zero to ten basis, the nines and tens are considered promoters of that brand and the ones most likely to purchase again and to refer amazon and there’s a group that’s adapted that for the nonprofit sector and not only asks, how likely are you to donate to this organization? But are they your favorite charity? Do you love this organization? And they combine those scores to understand the donor’s commitment? And so we measure that on an annual basis and what we’ve seen since we’ve transitioned to the more personalized form of storytelling in general and specifically through video is that our donor commitment scores have started teo increase because the donor’s air really seeing themselves in our stories for the first time and in a long time, okay, and what are some of the other techniques that you’re using alongside the personalized video? So we’ve once we created these nine different personas, we actually built collateral around them for all sixty two of our chapters and developed with michael’s team, a flip book that sits on every marketer and fundraisers desk throughout make-a-wish way have a thousand employees throughout the u s and so having a shift like this and storytelling was a massive endeavor. We didn’t want the personas to end up on the shelf in the office, so to speak. And so literally we put these flip books on everyone’s desk, and when they’re getting ready to send an email or write a direct mail letter or create a video or whatever the case, maybe they can literally flip the persona and remind themselves about their demographics there. Psychographic sw what? What these individuals value so they make sure that they’re truly speaking to these individuals and personalized and segmented way, right? So if you’re writing an e mail or you’re writing a facebook post, you look at those pictures of those people and you say, well, will this person like that was this speaking to them now they’re not it’s not speaking to everyone. It’s, speaking to specific types of supporters donors wish, refers on making that really top of mind all the time when you’re doing content creation. Now the flip books are the persona. Yeah, the nine percent cracked and their posters on the walls and there’s, you know, an idea of like these air, our constituents, we need to be talking to these people, you’re not the audience, these in the audience. So when we think about the language we use, when we think about the things we want to share, when we think about how to ask for for donations, we have to look at these faces and their character, and we have to say, you know, will this resonate with them on dh that sharpens started to sharpen the messaging on, but also diversifies the messaging because it’s not just one one type, so make a wish kind of got caught in talking one way tau one type and the way to grow is really to think about, well, who were those other types that we weren’t speaking too? Okay, and it sounds like common sense, right? People have been talking about being donor-centric and constituent centric it conferences in presentations and white papers for ten years, but the reality is, most organizations have not really embraced that. And although it seems like common sense and doesn’t sound like a controversial idea, it was actually very controversial for many of our chapters, especially those with staff who have been there for ten, fifteen, twenty years. They’ve been used to talking exclusively about make a wish, make a wish being the focus, and when we said no, if we’re going to grow, if our donor commitment scores are going to rise, we need to flip that and people were resistant to that. And so the flip books really helps push that along. What are some of the other personas you mentioned? Doctors, volunteers, major donors? Who some what are some of the other? Sure so we created not only current heh personas, but perspective personas of those who were not currently reaching that we feel like there’s a good opportunity. Two one example of that is a volunteer persona of an older male. Most of our volunteers are younger females, but we thought there was an opportunity with men who are approaching retirement age to become volunteers who helped grant our wishes. A tte the same time, those individuals could potentially become candidates for plant giving, major gifts and so forth. Doctor’s on social workers and child life specialists, or court our mission. And they’re a really difficult audience to reach. Eso, we develop personas for all three of those individuals. And it’s enabled our chapters toe. Think ah, a little bit more strategically, about how they get into the conversation, in hospitals, in treatment centers and with nurses, and so forth. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation, top trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m lawrence paige nani, author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. I like the idea that it’s not only people you’re dealing with now, but perspective volunteers, for instance, the old er, the old er older guys, yeah, i mean, that was really an important insight that michael’s team helped us come teo and sell internally. Yeah, yeah, and also, for example, it fits in with the diversification of america as well. So, you know, we have a millennial donor-centric perspective dahna persona whose latino so, you know, those air communities that the chapters are starting to connect teo and don’t necessarily have the insight or the language to connect well, and so the persona is help them do that. Jonah, what kind of reactions have you gotten from donors who have received personalized video for whatever stage of their relationship with you? Yeah, so, ah, since we started implementing this about a year ago, ah, pretty much every single metric on our youtube channel has doubled subscribers, engagement, comments, shares, you name it, we’ve, you know, historically are channel had gotten a little flat. Excuse me, are these personalized don’t don’t personalize videos on youtube channel their videos with these personas featured in them on our youtube channel? Yes, not not the ones personalized each individual doesn’t. The person doesn’t go to youtube to watch it. It’s a it’s a private somewhere, as i said make-a-wish e-giving treyz you guys wait, give me a break elearning this now i’ve got about fifteen minutes of forty six seconds into personalized video. You’ve been doing it for years, okay? Yes, yes. Oh, no. Just saying that personalized video where the name appears in it is one tactic that make a wish is not using yet right? And they’re using the broader approach, which is to really see yourself in the video in the broad sense that there were somebody like you on the video, i think that’s having a great impact, i thought you meant they weren’t using them in donor onboarding but you’re not not using that. You haven’t personalized the videos yet, correct. Okay, you too. Metrics have doubled in views in every single way. Yeah, as you know, we believe as a result of changing the storytelling paradigm on youtube. Historically, all of our videos were about the wish, the child’s name, their disease and what they wish for organization centric or when you were talking about being donor-centric exactly, and now they can actually see themselves in these videos, riel live donors, medical professionals, volunteers contributing to our mission. We saw a video in the session that that make-a-wish produced that was these guys who created a polar plunge thing, and then they were somebody said, why don’t you make it a fundraiser? And they raised over five million dollars for make a wish and the video was about they spill it on you, but the video was about them, right? And there the donors on there, the fundraisers in the video was about them. It wasn’t just about the wish kids and the impact they had a huge impact. It had a huge impact on their life, right? They were incredibly moved by it. So this donor-centric heimans techniques is really saying, well, that’s an important story to tell and that impact is valuable, right? The impact on the child is a focus, but that impact on the donor is a real value and it’s something that make a wish is bringing to the world and let’s talk about it. Yeah, i mean, videos like this, i think, really make volunteering and giving contagious because people are able to see themselves in these videos more than they have in the past and they can say, well, if these these two guys from long island put together a polar bear plunge that raises five million dollars from make a wish, why can’t i do that? Why? Why haven’t i done something as simple as that that’s exactly how the ice bucket challenge took off right for for a l s purely organic and it was it was a beneficiary who thought of the thought of it, and it is now obviously took off from there. So in this case, a donor saw it and said, why don’t we do the same thing? So it’s our job to remind people every day how they khun get involved and and stay of involved? And if we’re just talking about us, we’re not going to be able to be doing that. Yeah. Grayce now, general, won’t be respectful of your time. It’s ah, about seven minutes of no it’s. All right, ten. Thirty i’m good. Oh, ten. Thirty. Okay. Okay. Because michael and i could’ve wrapped up in like, the next three, four minutes. But you’re good till ten. Thirty, i speak in ten. Thirty, so okay. Oh, yeah. We’re gonna get you wrapped up in a few minutes. Okay. Um, so we do have a few more minutes left. What what more can we say about this technique? The multi-channel that goes along with think, you know, important thing to say is that there’s a lot of shiny objects here. There’s a lot of technology is there’s a lot of good strategy, but in the end of the day, it all bumps up against culture and capacity. And and so you can say let’s be donor-centric you can say whatever, but if you have buy-in grain silos, if you have people have been doing some things for thirty years the same way that’s, what you’re going to run into, and so well we’re really focused on and what we’ve been working with jonno. And is this culture change and that’s not an easy process? That’s something. But if it’s not built in tow, whatever it is it’s it’s not gonna work. So when we think about strategy, we really think about that culture and capacity and, you know, how are we designing for change? Johnno talk a little about that. Because this this applies not only to a video strategy but really anything new where there are long term employees who haven’t been doing this way. Culture change, we all know, is enormously difficult. How did you bring along the recalcitrant ones? Yeah, absolutely so creating the percentage was twenty percent of the challenge, you know, eighty percent was rolling it out, and we work with michael’s team to create something internally. We call the content strategy collaborative, and we’ve broken our sixty two jap chapters into cohorts of fifteen, fifteen chapters with similar characteristics and are putting them through a nine months virtual learning program where each month they participate in a webinar on a topic related to one of the personas. Then they have personalized one on one coaching with a marketing and fund-raising coach, and then they get back together with their peers at the end of the month in a webinar that we call a share fest, where they share how they’ve experimented and tested and started to implement these personas in their storytelling and their campaigns and it’s been ah, overwhelmingly successful so far, the chapters love the program and have been extremely engaged in it and they’ll be spending literally nine months, five to ten hours per month. Just focused on this for the next year. Yeah. All right, so so there really weren’t people who were seriously objecting because they were brought along in the process and it was it’s a working product is the working process. I mean, even in this program, you know, there’s there’s, people, there’s, you know, resistance to specific things all the time. So it’s ah it’s working through it it’s saying, hey, we never did it that way or hey, look, we have events we’ve been doing our schedule a certain way, and we feel really full, like you want us to do these other things, you know? So that’s it it’s not a straight lying. So the program is great. And it’s moving the needle, but it’s turning a big ship? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Where we want to leave this? We have just like, another minute or so left. What? What happened? We set about it that that we should yeah. I mean, i would just say, ah, you know, every day if you work in marketing or fund-raising the non-profit you’re going to get an email from a vendor with a white paper about being donor-centric you’re going to go to a conference and see all the sessions air about that? But if that’s been going on for ten years, why have things not changed? And, you know, one of my former colleagues used to call it the mission megaphone. All we’re good at doing is sort of shouting our mission, but nobody’s listening, nobody cares what your mission is, that they care about what impact they can have on your mission. And until the sector really embraces this idea, e-giving will continue. Tio tio, grow at a at the small rate that it that it is. And so, you know, i would really challenge all of my colleagues to think seriously about this and start finding ways to implement in their organizations. Okay, outstanding. Thank you. Deep thinking civilization, right. They are michael hoffman, ceo of c three communications and jonno smith, director of brand marketing and digital strategy at make-a-wish america. Gentlemen. Thank you again. Thank you. All right. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc the non-profit technology conference. Thank you for being with us. That was interesting. I got i got a little confused. I feel like i wasn’t totally paying attention to what michael was telling me. So i apologize for that, michael his first time going through it. Sorry about that. Next week, jean takagi returns he’s, our legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group. You know, jean takagi, if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we’d be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com, a creative, producers clad meyerhoff sam leave uses the line producer. I’m still working on hyre, not am and fm outreach director. Social media is done by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein. Offgrid me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and i agree. 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When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful posts here’s aria finger, ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? 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