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Nonprofit Radio for June 28, 2021: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns for a valuable, fun conversation that starts with the #ShowTheSalary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor, and CEO of NTEN.

 

 

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[00:02:04.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of para Nicaea if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Amy sample Ward returns for a valuable fund conversation that starts with the show the salary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor and ceo of N 10 on tony state too. Let’s rejoice, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, let’s get started, shall we, what do you say here is center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Amy sample ward. You know her, you know who she is, she’s our technology and social media contributor and she’s the Ceo of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement. She’s at a me sample ward dot org and at AMy R. S Ward, Welcome back amy,

[00:02:05.44] spk_0:
it’s been so long.

[00:02:15.34] spk_1:
I know it’s been several months. I didn’t even look back. It’s been too long, but let’s not, let’s not dwell on that. We’ll get, it’s my job to fix it.

[00:02:16.81] spk_0:
So what is time anyway? You

[00:02:19.37] spk_1:
know? Oh, that’s an existential question that we don’t have the time to answer what time is. So, um, you’re well in Oregon. Yes.

[00:03:00.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Doing pretty well hot. We’re hot in Oregon. We’ve got, we’ve got a hot hot keep wave and a hot summer ahead of us, but otherwise doing okay. And you know, I think like a lot of parts of the country, the kind of atmosphere feels like it’s lifting a little bit as, as cities kind of open up more because because it is summer, even if it’s super hot, it’s better to be outside and see other people, You know, I think after a long hard winter, people really just be inside

[00:03:08.12] spk_1:
Last summer, largely the same. Yeah, at least if you were doing the right thing. So yes, it beats the hell out of summer, 2020,

[00:03:15.10] spk_0:
right? Yeah.

[00:03:17.44] spk_1:
Although I’m sorry that climate change has contributed to bad temperatures in Oregon and

[00:03:22.55] spk_0:
yeah, yeah, we’ve already, it’s already fire season here and fire

[00:03:27.78] spk_1:
season is all the year now. Now California just doesn’t even have a fire season anymore. They just have fire fire

[00:04:40.64] spk_0:
thinking about, you know, how many And and 10 has community members all over the us Canada Europe all around the world. Um, and so it’s something we’re always thinking about is, you know, what’s going on and for somebody that might open an email or show up to a court. So being one of our cohort programs where we’re really kind of expecting a lot of you over an extended period of time and, you know, there’s folks in so many different geography, so many different identities, so many different kind of compounding factors where it just might not be a day that you can join of course, you know, and we have done a lot of work, kind of, all of all of 2020 started in 2019 and launched this calendar year with a number of changes to our programs so that people were better able to say, yeah, this isn’t the day that I can join us and that they weren’t kind of like slowly slipping behind or slipping out of any of our programs, that the system was already built for them to be like, yeah, not today. You know, uh again,

[00:05:15.54] spk_1:
we’re gonna talk about that to me that falls under the rubric of tech equity. We’re gonna we’re gonna talk about that. Let’s start with the something I know is on your mind. The show the salary campaign. There was it was a critical piece In the chronicle of philanthropy. Just yesterday, we’re recording on June 23 yesterday. There was a piece by Vincent Robinson, critical of show the salary campaign. Let’s acquaint folks with what show the salary is

[00:06:21.64] spk_0:
for sure. So I think show the salary like hashtag no spaces show the salary is a campaign, but it is not the only movement for there are many, many folks, many different hashtags, many different appeals to the sector at large, whether that’s foundation jobs or nonprofit jobs, whoever to include the salary, whether that’s a hard and fast number or that’s a range in every job hosting from Ceo to to any other position really because of the number of dynamics that come when you don’t show that salary and the privilege that it really wraps itself around, um that it’s not creating an equitable opportunity or access point for all different kinds of folks to apply for that job. And show the show salary is one of these campaigns and efforts to encourage folks whether by asking nicely or shaming whichever direction works to get people to do it

[00:07:41.14] spk_1:
all right. And some of the some of the reasons that showing the salary is important are I know that it gives an advantage to folks who negotiate salary better, which is typically white men. They are more confident in their negotiations. They have better outcomes when they attempt to negotiate. If not even better outcomes, they at least get get a better reaction when they attempt to negotiate. So it gives advantage to the white privileged. Um It’s um it’s disadvantageous in that you might be, I mean this this applies to everybody. You you might spend your time applying for a job that’s beneath your salary requirement. We all got to cover. We all got to cover a monthly nut. And if your salary isn’t gonna do it, you gotta go through a a laborious process to find that out. Maybe a couple of interviews, several hours your research time, you’re spiffing up your resume time, your credentials. So why should I hide it from anybody? Um on the positive side, he promotes transparency and you’d like to hire people who want to work for transparent organizations and people want to work for transparent organization? What am what am I what am I leaving out of the why the advantages, the reasons for showing the salary?

[00:08:32.14] spk_0:
I mean, I think all of those are right. And also all of those are kind of like doorways into an entire, you know, grouping of arguments that are related to them, right? And I think it intend we really um combined when we’re trying to mask or compelled or encourage or convince other organizations to include salaries to us that means compensation and generally make clear what your benefits really are. Don’t say generous benefits because to your point, if someone is um has chronic illness and they know that health care is going to be a really important part of the benefits they get and all that you’ve said is generous benefits. They don’t know how to navigate if that’s going to be worth their time competitive

[00:08:54.34] spk_1:
Really. You know, when you think about these things critically, which, you know, it’s, it’s just uh you know, for me at 59 years old, it’s what I grew up with commensurate salary, salary commenced with the experience and generous benefits. No, but if you do think about that well, it really communicates nothing generous, generous by whose standards commensurate by what type of experience

[00:08:57.34] spk_0:
and with the arbiter of that. Right?

[00:08:59.53] spk_1:
Well who is it? Yeah, who is? Right.

[00:10:24.74] spk_0:
Yeah. I think especially as uh folks are starting to maybe in a token izing way, look to increase the number of black indigenous staff of color, um, L G B T Q I plus like all different, you know, quote unquote diverse metrics for their staff. Those folks want to know that they are going to be evaluated by something they opted into, Right? So seeing something like, oh, it’s commensurate with experience. Well, if you are excited to hire me because I also speak spanish, but you’re not, you’re not giving me a salary because of that, then that’s probably not a great place, right? Like all of those decisions add up to a picture that’s getting painted to potential staff before they even apply, let alone are hired and start there. And if you think about, you know, what is this picture we’re painting? Is it just like murky and you can’t see anything isn’t really clear. We painted a beautiful picture of this land. They could come come join. You know, it isn’t just like what’s in the organization’s interest because you really want to be able to negotiate with someone. I would, I would invite a bit of reflection on why you want to change something, you know, because if you don’t already know how much you can pay, that’s how much you can pay. And if you don’t, then you’re probably not ready to start hiring.

[00:11:23.84] spk_1:
Okay. Uh, Vincent Robinson pushed back against the show the salary campaign. His his main point is that now he is a recruiter. He makes a point of saying that his practice is devoted to expanding diversity and accessibility among job applicant among applicants. Yes. And placements that he makes uh, he says that 90% of the candidates that he places are diverse. Bye bye. Common standards. Alright, So let’s, let’s just assume that that’s all the case. Uh, take him at his word for that. He says that the main problem with the show, the salary campaign is that it actually disadvantages folks. Um what’s this point? Because

[00:11:32.54] spk_0:
I mean, essentially, if I can, can recap it, um, the way that we read it and have discussed, invented is essentially saying that by disclosing that salary, so don’t already make it discouraged, right? Would feel that they wouldn’t go for that job. And

[00:12:22.64] spk_1:
Their if their current as it uses the example of someone whose salary is $60,000 and they feel they’re eminently qualified for a job that posts range, or a salary of $150,000, that they will be discouraged from applying because they feel they’re not worthy of that salary. And he says that he has counseled many people in that situation that they should absolutely apply. What does the I’m not I don’t want to make you a spokesman for the show, the salary campaign. We don’t even know who the members of the show the salary campaign are, which we are going to talk about. The secretive side of that. I’m curious about that. We’ll get to that as an advocate for show the salary. What do you say to Mr Robinson?

[00:15:23.34] spk_0:
Sure, I wouldn’t have nothing to do with the show, the salary campaign. And as far as I understand it, it’s a campaign started by nonprofit staff in the charity sector in the UK. Um wow, she and being in love with their julie and I have nothing to do with it. But there are, you know, folks like Julie and the community centric fundraising community and 10 lots of folks in the us have also been calling for this. I think the idea that someone would see a higher salary and think that they are not qualified. I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist like humans are complicated, dynamic, interesting creatures. And I’m sure there are people for whom they have experienced a lifetime of internalized messages that they are not worthy of that job, right? That is not going to be changed by all organizations continuing to hide the salary. We’re not changing the sectors general attitude that everyone deserves more money by hiding salary. So even if, even if there are individual use cases where people were discouraged because of a high salary, that is not a validation for not disclosing it. And ultimately, by showing those salaries, you’re encouraging peer organizations to equally pay that much for the similar title or scoped positions. Um, You know, I think another perspective, we talked about an intent was, well, if that person is making 60,000 there in an organization that has the full kind of, uh, equate herbal scope to that other position, then they probably shouldn’t be making 60. And the issue is that they are currently making too little, not that they are not qualified for a job that makes twice as much right. That the real issue is, is their current place of employment and that that place they should be able to use that job posting to say, hey, I like a race. I think the dynamic that’s not spoken about in the Chronicle piece that I do think is an important part of the conversation about hiring in the sector is the fact that that articles written by a recruit and I think that I have experienced and seen and coached many people applying for jobs who have a very different uh understanding or expectation or assumptions about what’s going on when they are dealing with a recruiter, then when they are applying directly to the organization. I think there’s a lot of messaging and marketing that recruitment firms are, you know, leadership or C. I. O. C Suite ceo type of jobs. And those feel like they imply a level of corporate nous, maybe certain size of organization, you know, and those are probably more likely the factors that are making folks feel like they don’t want to go for the job than the fact that it pays more money. But

[00:15:43.84] spk_1:
it’s interesting just the existence of a recruiter could be off putting to a lot of folks who internalize messages about their credentials.

[00:15:45.61] spk_0:
Not that I don’t think people should use recruiters, I definitely think they should, but I think that that’s an unspoken reality that is not factored into that article.

[00:16:01.94] spk_1:
Right. Right. Right. Which I’m not sure that he would even acknowledge. Yeah. But okay, I

[00:16:06.74] spk_0:
wanna, can I can I can I steer us back to the question and you always get to steer Can I give

[00:16:10.01] spk_1:
you latitude

[00:17:36.74] spk_0:
well, because you said something that I thought was interesting and we could talk about for a second earlier when you were saying, you know, expertise. Uh and I think that’s also a big part of all of this, is that If you were to take to job listings that you found, that said the salary and they said they were both $60,000 jobs, right? 60,000? Um as your annual salary? Mhm. I cannot imagine that you would find those two jobs, say they’re looking for the same experience or expertise or scope of job, even if they were both in communications are both in in programs, right? So I feel like there’s also an opportunity to be very open and intentional with how we phrase or or position to potential staff, what we were looking for when we hired you, because if it’s just like, you know how to use this database and you know, you know, you know how to do these tactical things, I don’t know how it matters who it is. You hire hire the first person then, right? Like if that’s the thing that’s most important to you, it’s just that they can technically do these things that feels to me like you maybe don’t even need a human. That’s a

[00:17:51.64] spk_1:
pretty, that’s a pretty shallow job description. If it’s just a list of four things that you need to be able to do it, right, then you just hire the first person who can do those four things and it makes no difference who it is,

[00:18:15.74] spk_0:
right? But I see, you know, intent as a dartboard and um see jobs posted in the sector on twitter et cetera all the time. I feel like hiring is kind of picking up now and I see so much of it is like we really want you to have experience with X database or X website platform or you know, and like does any of that matter? Can’t you teach somebody the

[00:18:19.26] spk_1:
database? It’s all trainable, it’s all right, we need somebody who’s trainable

[00:18:49.24] spk_0:
right? Like eager to learn, interested in doing the work that we do, but not that you already know how to do certain things right? That’s not the most compelling. And again back to that idea of like you’re painting a picture for these potential applicants, you’re painting a picture that like what they’re what they’re part of. That magical garden scene is like you have a hammer, you have a shovel, you have some seed like you know, it’s probably looks not as appealing, right? It looks like, oh yes, this is beautiful garden scene and I will sit over here hammering on the bench.

[00:19:26.14] spk_1:
Uh I mean uh I guess what we’re, what we’re talking about though, depends on the level that you’re hiring too. I mean if if an expertise is required in something that’s not that’s not trainable, I mean you so you have I. T. Staff, you have the luxury of having write your own development team. Um

[00:19:26.79] spk_0:
So yes, he does the work of a team. Okay. Okay.

[00:19:32.40] spk_1:
Yes. We’ll shout him out now. Go ahead

[00:19:34.25] spk_0:
dan. Yeah.

[00:20:02.04] spk_1:
So you have the luxury of having a development person, web development person. Um So, you know, he has to have a basic level of skill or or beyond basic in certain things. I don’t know whether it’s C Plus plus or drooping or you know, whatever. I don’t know. Html Well, we’re beyond html That I know. So, you know, at that point you would, you would advertise a fluency with something, wouldn’t you?

[00:20:09.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean when we hired for that position, you know, we certainly wanted to say these are the platforms we’re currently using. Um, but okay. And you need to, you

[00:20:15.11] spk_1:
need to be able to support these.

[00:20:58.64] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. But that was, you know, that’s more of like, hey, this is the job. So stop reading if you don’t know what wordpress is, Maybe not the posting for you, but the things that we really want our, that you, I want to be part of a team where every person has leadership responsibility. You know, you’re not just going to be told what to do. Like you also have to come up with what to do and uh, you know, we want everybody on the team helps with the Ntc. You’re going to like carry a sign down the hallway, put it somewhere. Like you don’t just get to sit at a computer. You know, like we really want to communicate that working at what working in china is like and make clear that that’s what we’re looking for, right vs. The list is for this salary. You can do these five technical things.

[00:25:18.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times, Wall Street Journal, UsA Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, The Hill Cranes, nonprofit Quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten recent exposure. You want that kind of press turn to has the relationships to make it happen. Turn hyphen two dot c O. Your story is their mission. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Let’s rejoice this summer. We’ve come so far from a year ago from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in this summer. I hope you can. Yes, there’s a long ways to go to My state. North Carolina is less than 50% vaccinated, but we’re so much further from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in how far we have come. I hope that you can do that in your own way. I hope you can schedule some time away or some just some time. It doesn’t even have to be time away. I hope you can schedule time for yourself, family, friends, all of which we couldn’t do couldn’t do safely a year ago. So let’s rejoice in how far we have come while at the same time recognizing there’s a good way to go before we’re out of the woods with this pandemic with the delta variant now and other possibilities of variations. Yeah, we’ve come a long way. I hope that you can take the time for yourself, for your family, for friends to do some rejoicing this summer. Have some fun, whatever form fun takes for you, whatever it is. If it’s crocheting, if it’s travel, if it’s stay home, okay if it’s more time with kids, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, whatever form fun takes for you. I hope you can do it. I hope you can because we are so much further along than we were this time last year. That is Tony’s take two sending blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag, tisk, tisk. It’s your life if you’re using one of those, send in blue is priced for nonprofits, easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Very melodic. It’s like, it’s iambic pentameter. Almost. How do you encourage job posters on the N 10 job board, which I know is one of your more popular pages on the areas on the, on the site at n 10 dot org of course. Um, I know you require salary their number or arrange a minimum or arrange I guess. But beyond that, what, what can you or what can other folks do to either encourage it if they have a job board or working in their own job descriptions.

[00:26:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think a lot of the other work that we do is not very publicly visible. I have had a number of community members over the years since we’ve been requiring salary where they want to post a position. They themselves had already asked their organization, what’s the salary going to be in the organizations that were not posting it? So then they come to me and say like, I don’t have a lot of positional power. But what I could do is like bring you in on a conversation that put some pressure on, you know, and have some conversation that, that does convince them because even if they didn’t want to do it, they’re doing it gradually. I was looking at them so they did it, you know, you know,

[00:26:10.85] spk_1:
you know that,

[00:26:11.79] spk_0:
well, you

[00:26:13.28] spk_1:
Have the leverage of the N- 10 job board and we’re talking about technology if it detects job, the intent job board is like a Seminole place to be.

[00:26:43.74] spk_0:
Right. Right. So I’ve had lots of places where I’ve either helped people come up with their talking points to take to their team or joined email threads or even had phone calls with hiring managers who weren’t convinced, you know, and just spent 10 minutes talking to them about it, um, to get them kind of to the other side. And I think that’s, You know, while it’s kind of maybe not in my job description, those 10 minute calls or helping somebody with their talking points in a Google dog are changing organizations. And I really love between that work, you know,

[00:27:31.84] spk_1:
but that’s using intense influence the same way you do when you, uh, when you sign contracts for, for the NtC that you insist you have, you have certain requirements from, I guess diversity to food to, you know, whatever you use the leverage, use the leverage in that case it’s dollars in hiring case, it’s the N 10 job board you want to be on it. I mean the bottom line is you got to play by our rules. I’m happy to have a conversation with you about why those rules exist and how they contribute to the in 10 values,

[00:27:33.92] spk_0:
How

[00:27:43.54] spk_1:
they flow from the intent values. Maybe more more eloquent, but more appropriate. But in the end, you know, if you want to be on the job board, you gotta, you gotta use our rules if you want. You want the N 10 money, you want the N 10 conference at your center, then we have, we have certain basic requirements that are unyielding.

[00:28:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting because the intent job board, of course you can post a job, but I think most people think of when they think of a job board, like a part time or full time organization that you are working for overtime. But we also, you can also post gigs or RFP s shorter term project type posts and we require a salary or budget to be listed on those two and that’s actually the place where we get the most push back. Um and folks will say, well we don’t know what our budget is until people reply to our RFP. And while I understand that, could I feel like reality, there is just like a, just like a potential applicant to become an employee. A potential contractor also doesn’t know if this is a project that they should bother trying to take on if they have no idea what your budget. So again, you don’t know what your budget is. You’re not ready to hire. Call for our FPs. You

[00:28:56.38] spk_1:
Need to know whether this is a $10,000 project or $60,000 project. I mean without saying a range of $10-$60,000, which is, which is worthless. People, people do that. Do they say?

[00:29:08.44] spk_0:
Okay, sometimes? Yes.

[00:29:10.03] spk_1:
Alright, well that’s

[00:31:05.24] spk_0:
worth. Sometimes. Yes, we try and catch those and talk to people. But you know, I think that folks, it’s such, it’s also such a privileged position to say like, well, we don’t even know what the budget is, where what I hear in that is whatever people tell us is what we could pay. And I don’t think that most nonprofits have a relationship to their cash flow, where they could say whatever somebody says is what we should pay, right? You you likely do have a discreet budget range And even if you feel like it’s really low and you’re sad that it would look low, it’s better that that’s on the table at the beginning, before a bunch of firms, you know, do a bunch of work. Um, and 10 actually just closed an RFP for our own, like it was on our job board, but it was our own RFP to do a website redesign project. And um, we had talked to, uh, so many firms in the community, but one had kind of expressed a bit of a surprise that we were anticipating 10, maybe 15 Responses to the RFP. That that would be a lot of responses. Well, we got over 40 and what we heard from a lot of people is the reason we got so many is because the RFP was very clear. It said why that was our budget and what what we could do in house, what we needed somebody else to do. So, because we have taken longer than our original timeline was internally to be really clear in the RV, we were able to get so many more potential folks that wanted to work with us. And now of course, I don’t know how long it’s gonna take us to read this many are applications, but um, it’s a better problem to have than than only a few that submit and none of them feel like a good fit. You know, now we’ll be able to choose from a great difficult group of to decide.

[00:31:45.34] spk_1:
So it ends up being worth the internal time that you spent. It was beyond your projected time because you’ve got 433 times the number of applicants, uh, proposals that you were expecting. All right. Right. Um, uh, so let’s talk about the show the salary campaign. Okay. Now you all right. So you said you’re not you’re not a part of it. I didn’t know that had started in the UK for one. I feel like they, um, they suffer some because it’s all it’s all secretive. They don’t reveal.

[00:31:46.69] spk_0:
Doesn’t need to be like,

[00:32:01.04] spk_1:
well, yeah, I mean, I think credibility, I think naming who you are, at least some of whom you are, helps with credibility. You know, purely

[00:32:02.03] spk_0:
seeking. But they do say that there are non profit staff.

[00:32:05.84] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:32:24.34] spk_0:
And I feel like their appeal isn’t saying we like this one organization, you know, we’d like this one funder to change their grant application and we are previous grantees. So we have a level of knowledge. Like there isn’t any, uh, in my opinion, there isn’t any justification you need to do to say, yeah, I think people should have to show their salaries, you know, they

[00:32:38.34] spk_1:
Have, like six or 8 reasons why the salary should be shown. Uh, you know, it’s secretiveness creates suspicion,

[00:32:44.14] spk_0:
doesn’t I just I just don’t share that feeling. I feel

[00:32:48.15] spk_1:
like,

[00:34:03.44] spk_0:
um not the number of people that, like, for example, we have because we have talked on the website and the job board, we have a blog post about why we want people to to include their salary. Um, it’s common that folks that we don’t know or or we’re not first name basis, like community member, we know who they are will tag us in a tweet thread and include our blog post while they are trying to convince someone else. We weren’t even heard of that. We don’t know who these people are that are talking, you know? But they’re like, oh well and then to doesn’t here’s their article and you should really do this. So those people don’t even necessarily know who we are, but they’re using it to support their argument. And I feel like I don’t need to go into that twitter friends like, hello, I am a me I am in ceo these are all of the reasons why I get to exclaim this. And you know, I don’t I don’t know that. I don’t know that the campaign, like so many other campaigns is trying to say that the exclusive use of that hashtag are the eight collaborators on that website, right that like anyone can go appeal to folks that are sharing their salary and ask them to do it. You know that it’s it’s about the message. It’s not about the people who have the capacity to build the website and get it out

[00:34:29.54] spk_1:
there. It is. Yeah. As I said, they have six or eight reasons why you should should show the salary. Um All right. Maybe I’m just more traditionalist, but you know, secretiveness breeds suspicion for me. I would like to see a couple of

[00:34:31.27] spk_0:
names that

[00:34:32.06] spk_1:
Uh and then but then you say, you know, but in that case where you were citing, you know, in 10 gets broke. So other folks brought you in. So you’re they presume your credibility

[00:34:42.94] spk_0:
well. But I think it’s the same way where people that aren’t who I’m just saying that because that’s a random number of people, but like whoever was the friends who created that website, like people don’t need to know them in order to use the hashtag show the salary for saying, you

[00:35:00.54] spk_1:
know, and and to agree with the six or 8 reasons that they

[00:35:03.08] spk_0:
have, which

[00:35:07.04] spk_1:
is you’re all very cogent to me. I just I would like them to go a step further.

[00:35:11.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Ok. I hear your concern. I have nothing to do with them. So I can I will not pass this feedback to anyone. But

[00:36:01.33] spk_1:
you don’t know anybody. I don’t know. It’s like people say this is in confidence. I always say, well, I don’t know anybody to tell. Right? And a few people I do know that nobody listens to me anyway. So, so your your confidence is well kept with me. Don’t worry. Don’t worry about that. Yeah. Yeah, sure. You got my confidence. Absolutely. This isn’t confidence. Absolutely. Okay. Um bringing a little more down to uh, some actionable steps or if the if not actionable, at least, things that folks can consider. And I’m always grateful to you that we can use N 10 as an example. You have, you have the N 10 Equity Guide for nonprofit technology which is at N 10 dot org. And my suggestion after that was just search for Equity guide for nonprofit technology in

[00:36:05.24] spk_0:
your or its underneath the resources either way. Okay.

[00:36:29.53] spk_1:
It’s called the Equity guide for nonprofit technology and you have some things that you recommend there and I’m sure that intend abides by or at least tries to abide by as best as you can. Um, and the first one is that is sort of what we were talking about earlier. Don’t assume expertise in technology radio

[00:38:52.12] spk_0:
and I think that this gets a little bit confusing for folks because they are hiring for a position where whomever is hired saying is you tony I hire you. I know that so much of your day is going to be using these couple systems and I think I’m doing doing a favor to everybody by saying, okay, we really want somebody who already knows how to use these things, right. But it is unlikely that the way you use that database or the way you have set up your website or the way you use white books, you know, whatever it is, is exactly the same organization to organization. Um kind of what we were saying before, you want somebody who’s interested in ready to learn how you use your database and maybe you want somebody who is familiar with what databases do and are and has ever used a database. But the idea that it’s really important to hire someone who’s used that exact same suite of tools, it doesn’t, it’s just not realistic. They have not been customized the way your organization is customized people are using Salesforce in a way that is unrecognizable, Salesforce. That doesn’t mean that because they use Salesforce somewhere else, they automatically know how you’re using it. And all of those things, just as you said at the beginning or a teacher, we should be invested in teaching all staff, all of the technical things they need always, not just in their orientation, right? But technology training is all the time because technology is changing. And when we remove those pieces of focus from the job description, it allows us to really focus on what matters more. That’s less tradable, less teachable. And that is, you know, are you solutions minded? Are you interested in leadership and responsibility? Do you have experience with community engagement? Do you come from this community that we serve? I don’t know what things might be specific to the job that we’re all raised from in here in this example. But getting to elevate those other pieces that are maybe more about what somebody wants to do or has a natural inclination towards, instead of Can you click a mouse on the screen? Like we will teach you how to do that part, you know? But if you don’t like working with people, maybe that’s not the job because they’re clicking the button so that they can talk to people right? Like there’s something else happening in that job and focus on that instead

[00:39:10.22] spk_1:
related to that making training accessible. Uh, so, you know, I mean, to me there, those really go hand and glove. I mean, don’t assume a certain type of expertise and then you need to make the training accessible. And as you just said, you know, throughout, because technology is changing, it’s not

[00:40:45.21] spk_0:
just not everybody learns in the same way orientation. Uh just saying like, oh yeah, we made this internal wiggy and there’s a bunch of pages, How about it? Like not everyone can just go look at this wiki. They didn’t make themselves and learn from it. So know that however you’re going to invest in training, its investing in different types of opportunities to learn the same, maybe core functions so that people can engage the way that that works for them. And then take, for example, the way that we do this is we like to, you know, document things so that it is written down for people that like to have the guide of, okay, step one step to do some uh recorded a recorded screen where someone is clicking through doing the thing right? And then everybody brings their computer to a meeting and we all do it out loud together at the same time so that somebody can say I did a practice one of these before the meeting and now it’s showing me the screen and then everybody can look and you’re like, oh my screen looks like this, your screen looks like this. Let’s all learn what this error is, you know? Um and it means that of course it normalizes that everyone needs to learn these things and it isn’t just, you know, one person’s job, but it also creates this opportunity for really deep learning because we engaged in that so many different ways, you know, as a team,

[00:41:04.01] spk_1:
community learning right together. Yeah. Um you know, requiring equitable equipment policies and and that’s related to bring your own device,

[00:42:27.50] spk_0:
bring your own device, something we saw at the start of the pandemic, even beyond, Bring your own device was, you know, in an organization where there’s uh in use a very traditional hierarchy, people that were directors or above got to have Apple laptops. So when they said, okay, work from home, they were ready to go. The managers and below had desktop computers, so they were not ready to go, you know, um, and there wasn’t uh, acknowledgment of the inequity there. And I think that’s a very easy case in point where you can think about that. But we’ve received so many questions over the last 16 months of people saying, okay, well, now that our organization is convinced, then we can kind of kind of maintain a hybrid model going forward. They still haven’t changed the policies that say directors get a new computer every two years and everybody else gets one every six years, but my computer is dying, you know, and I don’t qualify. So the option I’m being told by my own or use my own, which of course isn’t, isn’t equitable is not a fair expectation, but it also creates all these other security vulnerabilities were now working off of machines that are part of the organization’s college.

[00:42:46.30] spk_1:
It goes yes, it is inequitable. It’s also high risk. Right? So, so the employee buys their own now, how do you know what else they have on it? It belongs to them. They are welcome to their privileged and entitled to put whatever they want on it. And how do you know? And what? So now what kind of devices, your data being stored on?

[00:43:22.50] spk_0:
Right. Exactly. And where are people accessing it from? You know, a number of organizations often try to address some level of security vulnerability by making sure that all of the staff laptops have a VPN and they know how to turn the VPN on, but then when they start using their tablet or their own personal computer to do that work in a different way, they’re not going through the VPN. So there’s just so many places where it undermines other efforts you have actually invested in because you are not thinking about what it needs to have devices for everybody that works for them.

[00:44:29.89] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. And let’s wrap up with, and there’s, there’s many more, there’s probably a dozen different, if again, if not action, actionable items, at least items for you to think about and discuss all throughout the, uh, in this, in the intent equity guide for nonprofit technology. There’s a lot more than what we’re just the couple that I’m that I’m raising with Amy, that we’re talking about supporting remote work obviously, very timely, uh, enormously, you know, but um, everybody doesn’t have, uh, there’s not the same level of, of broadband access. We know this, I mean, you’ve been you’ve been active for years on the broadband equity. Um and now it’s part of biden’s infrastructure proposal. Well, how much of that will get past? Very uncertain, right? Some people only define infrastructure as macadam and concrete and bricks and mortar and beyond that, you know, they don’t want to know about infrastructure. So, you know, you can’t even assume the simplest things that so many of us take for granted exist among all your among all your staff.

[00:45:49.19] spk_0:
And, you know, I think what’s just so confounding to me is the number of organizations who last March said, oh my gosh, we have to work from home. So they didn’t, they worked from home, they work from home for over a year, and now they’re saying you have to be in the office to work, which what I hear when someone says that is that You do not believe work happened for the last 16 months, and I’m pretty sure that work did have, and it probably happened in ways that were better for each individual staff person managing their day and their needs and what else they had going on in their life. So if if folks have to be in the office, sitting at that desk in front of the screen to be quote unquote work came to me that says, you don’t think what can happen unless they are being surveilled while they do it, right? That realizing you’re stuck and you are definitely not working on this article you need to work on. So you’re gonna get up and like make a big fresh pot of tea that that’s not a part of your human management of your

[00:45:53.61] spk_1:
valuable to you.

[00:46:50.98] spk_0:
Right. Right. So, I think organizations that are pushing for this kind of return to in person are really hurting their staff. There are staff. We’ve already seen articles about staff are leaving on mass instead of returning because that’s not it’s the bar, right? Like we have said, the bar is I should be able to be a human that can be trusted to do my job and also live my life. And organizations that can’t respect that I think are not going to have the kind of, you know, talent and diversity that they may say they want. Um, and what I think is important to also acknowledges, there are people for whom working in the office is ideal for them because they can’t focus at home or at home. There are too many other demands on their time from family members or, or whatever else. But That one person working best in the office doesn’t mean everyone else has to be there. Exactly 9-5 with them, right. There should still be a way to support folks who are really great staff and just can’t be in the office, you know?

[00:47:26.88] spk_1:
Yeah. There are folks who want to be nomads now. You know, we, we can’t ignore what, what we learned over the past 16 months and what people have learned about themselves as well as what hopefully organizations learned about themselves and their people. These lessons, you know, these lessons are with us now for generations, right?

[00:47:31.78] spk_0:
And that’s our opportunity to learn from them and get better and grow versus hold on to an idea of something that also wasn’t working before the pandemic,

[00:48:23.97] spk_1:
right? But we just very few people have the courage. Very few organizations have the courage to attempt something different, okay. And they got forced into it to marches ago and we can’t ignore the lessons that we’ve learned and people are not, people are not going to be willing to take a step back. So yeah, if your organization is insisting, I would say especially now during the summer, I mean, if it’s maddening, I mean, uh, you know, I’ve had folks tell me that their offices go, they’re going back to the office starting in like mid june or july. It’s the summer for Pete’s sake. Nobody had any any summer in 2020. So if, if you have any humanity at all, at least wait until september or maybe even october. But even beyond then, right, you know, we’ve learned so much and people are not going to be willing to go backwards. And if you want, if you want to retain the best people, you know, some of them are going to want to be nomads. Now, some of them,

[00:48:33.52] spk_0:
you’re going to want to be able to be at home when their kid is sick and not have to take off work. Yeah.

[00:48:49.67] spk_1:
Okay. It’s, it’s equity, it’s tech, it’s hiring, its, its retention, it’s good policies

[00:49:01.37] spk_0:
and I think part of how we ended up going all over the place of this conversation is just a reflection of how interconnected all these things are and kind of directional. If you, if you can’t share your salary on your job description, you’re probably, what else are you hiding from people? Oh, now they’re hired. They probably don’t get to have a great computer that they choose, right? Like it’s all part of the same mess.

[00:49:32.17] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. We only contribute 25% of health care premiums. Yeah, exactly. All right. All right. Thank you. Amy Amy sample award ceo of intent. Our technology and social media contributor. Uh, you’ll find her at AMY sample ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward. Thank you for fun. Provocative, interesting conversation. Thank you.

[00:49:41.35] spk_0:
Thank you. As always.

[00:51:25.96] spk_1:
Next week it’s Jean Takagi returns. It’s Jean Takagi. Next week Jean Takagi returns with your one hour legal audit. Who writes this copy this middling lackluster coup. This is why I need an intern. I haven’t put the word out for interns lately, oddly nobody ever applies, but I need an intern to blame for this middling copy. So if you know someone who wants to be blamed, introduce them to me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant End in Blue. Creative Producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott. Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Yeah. What?

Nonprofit Radio for July 14, 2017: Social Change Anytime Everywhere, Part Deux

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Amy Sample Ward: Social Change Anytime Everywhere, Part Deux

Amy Sample Ward

We pick up where we left off last week with Amy Sample Ward, discussing her book, “Social Change Anytime Everywhere.” We’re covering your fundraising plan: scheduling; testing; staffing; budgeting; and tips for your website campaign. Amy is our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN). Her dad Tim joins in to share what it’s like to raise a social media scientist.

 

 


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Oppcoll no. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. The three fiftieth show is coming up july twenty eighth, two more weeks, the three fiftieth and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with dexter okla nation if i saw that you missed today’s show social change anytime, everywhere parte do we pick up where we left off last week with amy? Sample wards book social change anytime everywhere covering your fund-raising plan scheduling, testing, staffing, budgeting and tips for your website. Campaign amy’s dad tim joins in to explain what it was like to raise a social media scientist, and this originally aired on april nineteenth twenty thirteen on tony take two thank you, responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here’s amy sample ward with her book social change, anytime everywhere part do i’m always pleased to welcome amy sample ward to the studio she’s membership director at non-profit technology network and ten, as i said her most recent co authored book social change anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement the forward is by two time guest of this show, craig amar, the founder of craig’s listing craigconnects no, sorry work that in there that he’s been on the show twice her blogged is amy sample, ward dot or ge and she’s at amy r s ward on twitter. Welcome back, kayman sample work. Thank you for having me back. It’s. Always a pleasure. Um, i guess my one of my first my first question is on the cover of this book the word’s, any time and everywhere. I’m showing her the cover now to remind her of the are separated. But they are not hyphenated. Why? Why aren’t they hyphenated the way proper english would be any hyphen time? Because they’re in different lines and every hyphen. Where where is the copy editing on this? On this cover? Yep. I don’t think i’m gonna let you just go by with this job. It’s it’s apparently thie design aesthetic. Okay, which you had no control over, i guess. Okay. Okay. I think this should be hyphen. I mean, i think these things are important in in language. All right. But it helps you enunciate the title very well. Any time, every right. Trying to learn how to spell her. You would think that any time was two different words. And and it’s, not it’s, not everywhere is not two different words. It’s. True. Okay, um let’s. Ah, i like to reflect a little bit. Okay, we talk all the time about online engagement, teo. And with what’s been happening this week, if you are engaged online on your charity, does nothing at all related to anything around violence or maybe victim or family support or politics of guns. Your charity has nothing to do with any of that. How do you respond? What do you do online, too? Let people know that you’re you’re conscious of what happens in the world. That’s outside your own. Sure, i think i mean first i would say i understand the argument of, you know, we don’t work on the politics of gun issues. However, you probably work with people and ultimately in any crisis or disaster, people are involved, you know, and reminding your own staff that it’s not just about bombs or terrorism. This is still about people and treating whatever response, whatever communication you have next in that light that there are people involved in this, i think helps you just take the right tone regardless of where you go next, because you’re then being responsive to what if it was you, you know, you would want someone to treat you or your city or your issue like people were involved. Next it’s a great opportunity to go check any scheduled messages you have any tweets or facebook post that air maybe already scheduled about something else. Also, look at your content calendar. You know where we planning on sending out an email appeal this week? That was, you know, using the story of this great little kid, and now maybe we don’t want to do that story or maybe not that message it all this week, you know, not that you have to completely shut down every organization didn’t stop this week, but trying to be responsive, teo, the fact that, you know, even in your own goals, you’re probably not going to get the analytics or the metrics you wanted, you know, no one’s going to be clicking through that email anyway, if that’s not what’s on their mind so looking at not just scheduled tweets, but what’s on your what’s scheduled to go up on your block what’s scheduled to go out and email looking at all of that immediately so that you can either put things on hold, readjust change, maybe which story was going to be in a newsletter? You know, there’s things like print ads or direct mail that that that’s already out there, you know? But people also don’t look at the newspaper and think, i can’t believe that this ad ran like because in our minds, we know that that’s not like a real time media. We know that that’s program six weeks in it, right? Exactly, but when you see something go up on twitter, you know, when you everyone else is just watching twitter for news updates it it really does feel a little bit more careless because they know that you let it happen. You know, you could have changed that tweet. We talk a lot about engaging with people online not so dissimilar lee from the way we engage with people face to face, you know? And when when i saw you earlier today, we you know i told you that i was feeling raw and sensitive and you know, that was that was really basically after right after hello, yeah, so, you know, i’m doing that in it, and i’m sure i’ll do that with friends. I meet for dinner tonight. It’s not it’s, not unlike online when you can have a conversation about this, or at least share your feelings when it really oppcoll just doesn’t deal with your data your day to day world, right? It’s it’s never going toe i mean, i don’t want to say never as if any statement could ever be, you know, all all encompassing, but for the most part, it’s not going to hurt your organization to say something like our hearts are going out to the victims and here’s a link to resource is or hears, you know, the the google spreadsheet that was created to help, you know, people say i’ve found this person or this person is missing, you know, like that it doesn’t hurt your brand, it doesn’t hurt your cause even though you might work on a totally separate mission to say, hey, we know this is happening and we want to make sure that we’re one more post in your facebook stream. That’s pointing to resource is instead of to something else. Okay, excellent. Well, we’re going to pick up with where you and i left off last month. It was march fifteenth with the fund-raising plan. We have just met and a half or so before we go away for a couple of a couple minutes, why don’t you just tease a little bit? Share? What? What we might be talking about with respect to a fund-raising plan. Sure. I think last time we talked kind about the components of the plan and this time we can get and i think to the nitty gritty, a little bit more like what does a be testing really look like in a campaign? Especially in real time? How do you figure out what’s working and keep kind of iterating as you’re in the middle of the campaign? And then also, what does that look like for your organization? Who’s involved once the campaign is live, is it just that development director or other staff? You know, playing into that campaign on then? Even what does it look like on online? What is what? Is your website need to do to be responsive to the campaign? Okay, maybe testing? Yeah, i don’t i’m not sure that that really qualifies for jargon jail. I’m not really feeling like putting buy-in george in jail today, and it probably doesn’t even really qualified. But well, why don’t you just explain what a be testing is? Sure. So for the most part, you could test everything on your website just by saying, well, it’s, their people are clicking on it, they like it, but it’s a little bit more scientifically valid. If you say have two buttons and people when they came to your website, they’re being presented with one of two buttons, and then you can just leave it up for a few days and say, gosh, anyone that saw the blue button clicked three times more than anyone that saw the red button, for example, so it’s just changing one component at a time with two versions so that you can figure out which works better and then start changing the next thing. And you’re directing people to both of them? Yes, simultaneously. Yep, i guess. Randomly, exactly. Okay. And you? You have an excellent example. In the book about the the clinton bush haiti fund, and we’ll talk a little about that. Ok, we go away for a couple seconds. When we come back, amy and i will continue this conversation about about her book and and your fund-raising plan stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, not too many live listeners today, i’m suspecting that a lot of people are if they’re online, they’re looking at cnn or some other some other news source that they trust. But i will say, live listener love out too. Forest grove, oregon and new bern, north carolina also since you taiwan ni hao and for korea, we have listeners in seoul and young in korea on yo haserot glad that you’re very glad, very glad that you’re with us. Thank you. Um okay, kayman sample word let’s talk about some of these details of of a be testing. What does this look like? Well, you can do it. I mean, even though we used the example before of your website, you can do it on anything. You know, you could do it in an email. Newsletters on little micro sites, it’s. Just a page essentially, whatever. Wherever you’re trying to put content out, you could do a be testing. So it could mean different photos, different buttons that text it could also mean having a photo or no photo, you know? Ah lot of organizations will do. A b testing specifically around fund-raising with on that on that donation page, does it have a photo or does it just have the form? Or, you know, does it show maybe a image of some sort that shows, like how they’re using the funding, for example, or what the project looks like that they’re asking for money for or again, is it just the form, you know? So and that’s it it’s going to change it’s not going to be the same for every single organization? You know, you have to do that testing because if especially if you’re an organization that’s used a lot of images in your campaign in your appeals that’s, you know that it’s driving people to remember what, what this is all about maybe having that photo there again, we’ll just keep that emotional tie to the campaign. But if it’s your raising money for something that you haven’t been using, that kind of graphical support for, well, maybe people would get there and say, why do you have this random photo of a child up here? You know, so so you wanted to be consistent, but you also want a test to see. What’s going to get the most completion on that form. Ok. And so i just said quickly before the break. You are you are you randomly? Your technology is randomly assigning people two different a and b version that’s what they be testing it first to a and b version is that is that what happens? So there are all different levels of sophistication, so you may be using a tool google has? Uh uh, baby testing tool optimize. Lee is another pretty sophisticated tool to use for that, especially around your website. But with email marketing, you could just say we want to send you don’t have the list this message and half the list this message or say you have a thousand people on your email list, send the first one hundred message a the next one hundred message be and then wait two hours, see which one had more opens and then say, great, we’re going to go with that message to the other eight hundred. Okay, so this could be that instantaneous. We’re just a couple of hours. Exactly. Okay. Okay. Now, an email, a popular thing to test is a subject line. Right? You could. Be having different versions of a subject line, right? Everything else would be the same. Exactly. The message inside is the same. But having, you know, a call to action versus you know anyone, regardless of which side you support anyone that’s on a political list. You’ve seen them testing those subject lines. You see messages coming almost every day during campaign season. Sometimes it just has one word. You know, sometimes it has your name in it sometimes it’s a really long call to action and that’s just those campaigns testing out what’s getting the most people to open this on the on the fund-raising landing page side, you have the example of the clinton bush haiti fund. They changed something so subtle, just the words within the button that you click right. The red, they have a red button and i have i’ve read that red is a very powerful color. Red is supposed to be very good button color for donate now for donation buttons or buy buttons. So they changed it from submit that the word in the button was submit to support haiti, and they got a fifteen percent increase in dollars per page view. Just something so subtle is that exactly and part of that, you know, some organizations think, well, we don’t want to write submit because normally, you know what we want them to do is donate or whatever their word choice, maybe, but if you have all throughout your website, if you keep using the word support, support us through your donations, support us by taking this action, and then someone gets to a page where there’s a button that says donate well, it feels really weird because you’ve already been consistently using this other word, so that consistency is important, you know? And again, if if you go look on your website now and you see that on your you’re donate paige it’s the only place you say there were donate but the rest of the time you really are talking about, support us financially. That’s an opportunity to do some testing because maybe donate works for your organization, and you should change those other places where it says sport or the other way around. Okay, excellent example, right of potential testing. Another thing they did there. There’s. This little geo trust verified icon i guess that it’s a trustworthy site right? Forgiving is that what that is, right? And there are all different kinds of those, you know, whether it’s charity navigator, geo trust like all those different things that say, basically, we’re not goingto take your money and do something else with it, i guess again, there’s different levels of what these other certification sites mean to, but some places have found, you know, some organizations found that by putting those kinds of seals of approval, i guess you would say on the donation for more on the button, they saw a big increase, but others have found like they did. You know, when you when you take it away, you actually haven’t they well, they decode, they had to do when they when they took that away, they lost five percent revenue right per page view. Exactly. There’s a trusted icon similar to papal, verified on the commercial side. Exactly. So people have gotten really used to, even if people don’t necessarily know what geo trust is or they don’t know what you know, charity navigator is they don’t know what they are, but the fact that it says it’s verified, you know, someone’s looked into these people give some amount of trust some of the things that you suggest it could be changed on dh tested form fields, how many form fields you have, the donation amounts that air suggested those little radio buttons that you click ten, twenty five, fifty hundred and that’s a really big thing to change, especially, you know, certain campaigns have found easy ways to mix that up because if they had a number involved in the campaign, you know, if if the campaign was around ah, holiday and it was on the thirteenth or it was a military campaign and they wanted to use the six as there number, and so then you just have increments of six, and you, maybe you say sixty is the default, right? Whenever organizations test that out, often they find people that the hyre number really does get donated because they’ve just mixed it up a little, you know, they didn’t defaulted to ten, you know, they put it up there a bit because people will still put it down if they want to have a smaller number, you know, but showing kind of the idea with where that preset radio button selection is. Is basically trying to say this is the average gift. This is the normal donation. So it’s not, you know, we’re expecting you to do this, but, hey, most people are doing this one thats why its preset on sixty. You know, eso it just encourages people. Tio not think oh, this is just a ten dollar or that’s, just the twenty five dollar normal donation, you know, so putting different numbers in there that are, like, thirty three and, you know, throws people a little. We have. We have tim sample on the line, tim samples called, and this is amy’s dad, he called in last month. Tim. Tim sample, how are you doing in oregon? I’m doing good doing good and plays it’s it’s already done, or or a gun? Oregon where there’s no evil or he’ll help you. Oregon. All right, there you go. You go. Oregon. Are it’s not gone? There’s no e at the end. Oh, thank you. Alright, oregon, but i’m a i’m right in the middle of work right now, but i’ve had an opportunity to come down on my desk and lock the doors. Nobody bought it. I’m at your disposal. Thank you, tim. You know, i wanted to ask you. I have here with me. You know, this little kind of sort of shrinking kind of wallflower, you know? Never not very engaged. Not very out there. What? What? What is she always like this when she was growing up? Oh, you’re talking about my daughter? Yeah, i know. I know. It’s. Hard to tell. Yeah. Yeah, alright, now, but without the sarcasm has always been a type a personality. Yeah, and always always engaged. Like, was she in? A lot of i could’ve asked her, but it’s more fun to ask you. Was she out there? Like, in activities in elementary school in high school? I mean, she’s, the online engagement, everything poster poster will be, could everything she could possibly get involved with. She was involved with her mother, and i tried to give her every opportunity to try every sport, every activity you wanted, you know, you know, as parents, we tried to do that for her. Can. My god, you know a good example of amy. I tell this story. He probably doesn’t remember it. But in the second grade, i said anything. You got your homework. Done well, yes. He had two next day’s homework done the whole weeks. Only john had read three chapters ahead. It was the last time we ever ask her if she had her homework done. Never had to worry about amy school or anything. Okay. And always self directed, always always getting right with it. And and i feel like he is right now. I know and engaged also. Always engaged with the public. Yes. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. How did we know that she’d end up a consultant and someone that people look to for advice about online engagement? Did you see this coming? I thought he’d be president united states by now myself? No, no pressure. Thanks, dad, but i didn’t want to go into politics. I amy always had a sense of what was right and wrong, you know, always interacting with other children. You know, she always knew what was right or wrong. She never made bad decisions that i can see. And if she did so well, i hit way didn’t know about it. All right, well, we’re back, but she has a sphere of alligators. Is that is that you’re doing? Is that is that? You’re doing, she has a fear of alligators, is that you’re doing a fear of alligators. You’re not aware of this? Well, we don’t have many alligators over here where we live in oregon and oregon in oregon, oregon. Now i know i never knew he had any fears at all. Tony all right. It was an example after a trip to florida, and tony will let me live it down if it comes up to you. Okay. Yeah, i have a fear of snakes. Oh, i don’t think i pass that on to her. I don’t know if alligators are reptiles like snakes are alligators may or may not be reptiles. Maybe maybe look together. Alright. Alright. We’re gonna let you go back to work, tim. All right, perfect. Thank you very much for calling the opportunity. We’re going. You don’t have to your daughter by tim sample. Okay. Goodbye. All right. I wanted to have some fun. Do that that’s fair. Okay. This’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. You are in charge of the shop. Future president. I know i the bar’s pretty high now. Yeah, i in fact, when alison find was here last week, i asked her if she thought that a presidential candidate could emerge outside the two major parties from online on, and she felt that it could eventually, but that we would see local local races first. Mayor’s maybe governors or senators, you know, but more local than presidential right away. But i was i had you in mind. I had your president cha operations. I don’t. I want to. You know, there’s. Another election coming up it’s true only only only few years. It’s. Really? Not all that far away. So exactly. Okay, she felt it was possible. Do you think it’s possible for a for their previous president there emerges online. Yeah, especially. I think around someone from a grassroots campaigning background not political, necessarily, but someone that’s that’s already actively working online to bring people together for other social issues or other kinds of campaigns. So so someone who’s in it in that way, i think, could easily cross over to say great. Well, now i want to run for for an elected position versus i’m just going to be the organizer that keeps this. Keeps this movement going. Okay. You have anybody in mind? Apparently i need to put myself in the strike don’t talk about other candidate. Exactly. Were we stupid? All right, i will go on the record shows up today never mentioning another candidate. All right, um, let’s oh, there was one more thing. I want to point out that matching gif ts is another possible, maybe another another possible testing. So oh, exactly the existence of or how big a match might be, right? Especially, you know, something to think about with phrasing of matching gifts is there’s the version of, you know, if we get to this number, we get that same total matched or every ten dollars gets matched. So then people think, well, my ten dollars isn’t going to mean much to this really big pot. We have to get two of twenty thousand, but if instead you say the matches, you know, dollar for dollar, whatever you khun give, how does that affect your community? Because some communities may really get behind the idea of, like, having to get to that really big number together and other communities want to feel like they’re five dollars, was still matched and still meant ten dollars, for the organization. So think about the way you use the match in your campaign, and several weeks ago we had a university professor on from university of chicago john list talked about scientific research around matching gift does does a three to one match necessarily pulled more than a one to one match? Right and where and on dh? Also in the phraseology of the match, the way you’re describing and that will show was on february eighth of this year. If you want to hear discussion about the scientific research specifically around matching gift excellent, we’re going to take more of a break, another break, and when we come back, we’ll talk more about who gets involved in the campaign, some budgeting, maybe some calendar ring and things like that and also tony’s take too, of course, comes before all that. Stay with me more with amy coming up first pursuant, check them out for lots of free resource is week after week, um, urging you to browse the collection, as my library used to say in elementary school, browse the collection that was when we had those card catalogs looking that they weren’t literally index cards or little cards were that brass rod ran through the ran through the middle on the bottom of the cards. It was always shiny and slippery, and you could get their little those little cards. And they used the dewey decimal system. We don’t know. Uh, we still use the dewey decimal, so i don’t even know. Do it. Yeah, but browse the collection and pursuing its much easier than the brass rotted dahna card catalogs of yesteryear. And where do you go? So you click. You go to pursuing dot com and you click resources. And then as you start your browsing the maybe the blogged or webinars or content papers or infographics. It’s all right, there. No card catalog required pursuing dot com. We’ll be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. You need money for your good work? Yes. Throw a spelling bee. You know i hate the word. Let us. I got stuck on lettuce was or greenlee was all it was all iceberg at the time. I hate the word. Let us i love but thea tangible manifestation of the word i enjoy but not the word itself. I digress. Host a spelling bee make millennial money. These are ideal fundraisers for millennials with spelling bee. And live music, et cetera. Stand up. Comedy dancing check out the video at we b e spelling dot com and talkto alex career the ceo now time for tony’s take two. Thank you so glad that you are with us. Whether it is let’s, do it backwards. I hate to break with tradition. It’s it’s so risky, but we start with the affiliate affections. And i am so glad that our am and fm listeners are with us week after week wherever your station fits us into there. Line up. So glad to have you with us podcast pleasantries always going out two the two are precious podcast listeners precious podcast pleasantries. I’m not going to do that every week now. Two’s enough podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand listening in the time shift so glad that you are with us thank you. And alive listener love always goes out you know who you are you know where you are. I can’t shut you out by city and state this very day. Although i will be able to next week and the week after live listener love to you thank you for being with us and also, if you are a non-profit radio insider and i get into your inbox every thursday. Thank you for letting me in there. I’m grateful that is tony, take two. And here is amy sample ward continuing with her book, social change. Anytime everywhere you gotta get this book for god’s sake, just get it. Amy who’s, who should be involved in this work? And how are we going? Estimate the time that’s going to be involved in our online campaign? Sure, i think fund-raising campaigns just like any other campaigns organization, maybe running advocacy list building, you know, community engagement, etcetera can’t be thought of as something that’s completely contained within the fund-raising department, because ultimately there are e mails and there’s this a b testing on the website, and all of those other components require all different staff from different departments. So it’s an opportunity to create, i think, processes we suggest in the book, where you will have regular opportunities for staff across departments, not necessarily like on all staff meeting, but staff across departments that are ultimately all creating the success of that campaign to come together, whether that’s like every week or however your organization wants to do it. To have a meeting where you’re all in the room at the same time, or all on video chat or whatever you want to do so that everyone’s talking about it. So as soon as you break that campaign down into the people that are in charge of the email never talked to the people that were in charge of actually counting how many people are coming through the form, then you’ve already said, well, we’re not even going to have the best conversation we can have with this campaign staff aren’t talking to each other, so creative process first, so that everyone involved is coming together regularly to talk about kosh, we saw that this button language was the best. Well, the e mail better have that same button language. You know, any abie testing that you’re doing anything you’re learning about what’s working with the campaign should then be immediately reflected in all the other components. So how you either evaluate ahead of time, staff time or recognize all those different pieces are maybe serving the rest of the organization. So thinking of of people in communications is not just communications staff that all they do is communicate. But they also served fund-raising and they also serve advocacy, and they also served programs. So what does that mean as far as your staff plan? And what does that mean for your value evaluation of staff? You know, those communications staff in this example couldn’t just say, well, my job is to send e mail and i sent them, but how, you know, how was your function in this organization, reflective of our success in our fundraising campaign were reflective of the success in our advocacy campaign so that it’s showing that that person isn’t just responsible for hitting send on thousands of emails but showing them even in their own evaluation, that they’re part of the whole organization success, which i think is critical for having all of your staff buy-in toe working towards your mission, you know, as soon as you say, well, your job is just the website what their job is the web site, because it’s serving the mission of helping people understand you know what your your cause is all about and so did did they lead the baby testing that help figure out that that button actually could have, you know, in increased by fifteen percent the donations that’s huge that’s, not just the fund-raising team that’s also that person who’s managing the website. What about the smaller shop? Just a two or three person arts group? I mean, how are we going to build even? Ah, modest campaign into what we’re trying to. We’re struggling to keep get getting done day in, day out, right? I think for smaller organizations, but really, the same lesson applies to everyone. Ah lot of of the components of the campaign are actually developed way in advanced. If you’re collecting stories actively as you are working with your community year and you’re keeping those stories not just on a piece of paper in your desk, but, you know, kind of like a story bank you have, you have ah, bank. You could draw from of all these different stories then in that moment when you need to create a campaign, maybe it’s a response of campaign because some horrible event has happened. And you want to make sure people are aware of your services. You know, for example, you have that content. You don’t have to then spend a week developing. Okay, who’s who from our community do we want to talk to you know, where could we get a story about our services in action? You’ve already created that content in advance, so especially when you only have two people, the more you can do to just kind of be librarians, you know, tio, cart, chronicle and archive all that you have all the time so that you can really easily just say that’s, you know, the book i want that’s, the story i want off that shelf and let’s put it into this email and then again, a be testing is so, i think, critical for really small shops, because if you really can just say, we’re going to send this e mail to one hundred people each and then know that the one that got more opens is what we’re going to send even though it took you maybe an extra five minutes to go back and say, okay, now send this list that was a really great five minutes, because it means you’re getting that many more people opening that message. Let’s look, a tte budgeting our campaign may involve some adwords facebook, facebook yeah, how are we going toe? How do? We figure out what what we should be too spending money on is beyond the time that also is an indirect, indirect cost, right? First, obviously, you know, you have to have the caveat of it all depends what’s your campaign about where is your community? Ah lot of people have have realized that you’re not necessarily just going to make all of your money from your fund-raising campaign on facebook, but a lot of those people that are participating as donors, maybe on your facebook page. So thinking about how you budget for promotion of the campaign versus budget, for the call to action, you know, you may want to just invest in having ads showing the efficacy of your work so that when people are then emailed a call to donate, they’re like, oh, yeah, you guys do really great stuff. I do want to donate via email because that’s my, you know, i’ll just click don’t and go to your website, but maybe it’s different for your forget it community, maybe your community doesn’t really know, and they just need to be told, like there was a disaster and donate, you know, it depends a lot in the circumstances, i think it’s also, especially with things like facebook, where they’re changing the algorithm like every five hours you have to do so may be testing, you have to invest in that a be testing. So you know which of these ads are working better? Do we do promoted posts, or do we do ads? So some of it is just having a reserve of that advertising budget to test with, and you don’t have to spend a lot of money now, like facebook ads are not expensive, right? For-profit lee fifty dollars or so you could oh, exactly, you attest? Oh, for sure, yeah, and the problem or the great opportunity that could become a new obstacle for organizations, is that when you get in there to do a facebook at our, you know, promoted post, you’re you’re presented with the opportunity to pick like which gender location, background so many details, but it can either be overwhelming and you just say, well, i just wanted to go to everyone, and then you’re going to run out of that fifty dollars budget instantly, you know, or you get so narrow and who you want this ad to? Go, too, but it never really goes to anyone. So i think there’s a little bit of opportunity, teo play even just with that, that scale of who do you really want to promote this to? Who is your donor? And what do you know about them? Which goes back to what we talked about months ago, about how, you know, investing and knowing who your community is first, so that you can say the right things on the right channels, and i appreciate that your advice always is. What are the goals of the campaign right now, and not only to raise the money that that? Well, actually, the campaign may not be about even about money, but may not only be the explicit purpose of the campaign, but also to grow engagement in the long term, bring some new people to the cause may not even fremery respond to your call to action, but now they’ve joined your community exactly, exactly. And for them this you know, your campaign that maybe their friend donated teo was the first time they had heard aboutyou, but they’re now hearing about you in a really trusted way because they heard that. A friend not only supported your work but gave money to your work, and now they just want to follow along, and eventually you can, you know, encourage them up that ladder of engagement to become a donor as well. And in that respect, not everything in your campaign has to be about the call to action, right? I mean, i know i guess you want the called action to be frequent, but there can be things that are informative beyond the call to action. Exact. I think a lot of organizations will shook about a fundraising campaign, i think. Okay, first and foremost, they’re donating to this campaign. They’re going to donate to this campaign. They really get that out there, and then people donate and then there’s nothing else, you know. So people feel like, well, i did the thing, but there has to be more aiken dio so recognizing that there is always more they khun dio having that thank you, paige, push them to the very next step. What’s the next step for you is that great. Thanks for donating here’s the button to share on facebook that you just donated, you know, or is the email confirmation encouraging them to share their story about why they donated so that now you have one more story and your story bag, you know, so think about what people can do to still feel like they’re contributing to this forward motion because they already donated, which is huge, so don’t take someone who’s willing to take a really big action and then just dropped them off, keep them, you know, sustained that engagement and keep them engaged so that you can ask them to donate again, you know, if they haven’t heard from you, and now you’re asking again for them to donate well, they feel like don’t you remember that i already donated? But if you’ve said, you know, hey, share this on facebook? Hey, give us your story, etcetera, and then you say thank you for donating. Please help some more. They feel like yes, of course we are trying to get there together. What is ah, home page hijack? Uh, it’s called many things, but basically i’m sure most people have experiences when you go to a website and you just, you know, landed on the website haven’t clicked on anything, and then something pops. Up, even the new york times does this you think you’re going to go read an article from the new york times that your friend just tweeted that and there’s a thing that pops up that says, don’t you want to pay for new york times content? Why don’t you subscribe? That’s that’s ah, home page hijacked, for example, it’s basically a light box that pops up and says, whatever you thought you were here to read. This is what we want you to read and it’s great for people that if they really are just hitting your home page because maybe they were, you know, searching online for something and came to your website, they don’t know or you’re directed people back to your website, and it can pop up and say, this is what’s happening here is the called action here’s, that big red button that says support haiti or whatever, and obviously they could close out of the box or lorts like off it, etcetera, but the fact that it makes it super front and center lit literally front and center on the website helps direct that traffic into the call to action where you could maybe. Instead of them seeing your home page that’s, you know, normally fairly generic has lots of navigation, et cetera and drives them to a page that’s just about the campaign, you know, really focus. They can see the donate form they khun see whatever helps funnel people just to the campaign instead of accidentally clicking unlike, oh, what is this organization about? And what do you do and what’s? This other thing? I see a photo of, you know, it just helps funnel people in where you want them to go. You have advice about how frequently someone may see that home page hijack, so maybe it shouldn’t be more than once a week person and the technology will support that our exam twice a week per person or whatever you think exactly, yeah, i mean, it’ll where people out if every time they go to any page of your website, they’re getting this pop up essentially, you know, but if you can say yeah, once a week or the first time someone comes to the website because maybe outside of a fundraising campaign, you could use that for many things you could have it say, join our email list. You know, subscribe to our news, whatever you want that pop up to be. So if you see that every time, well, gosh, i signed up a week ago, and i’m seeing it every day, you know, so just may be the first time that i p address hits the web site, you know? We’re going to take a break in about a minute. We want to have some print possibly to be in support of our campaign. I want to just open that topical bit. We’ll talk more about it shortly. Sure, i think print is actually a great medium, especially for fund-raising still one of the main drivers of fund-raising effort so looking again at that piece as a way to frame all of the content that’s going to come later because you’re going to be ableto change up at the very last minute, what you tweet and what you put in an e mail, etcetera. But if that print piece supports that overall call to action, the overall message and maybe has just won fairly general story that you can then really dig into that story of what that person’s you know, experience was or what those services mean to the community it’s a great way to frame things as a oh, yeah, i remember this. You know, every time they then get an email from you. All right, we’ll talk more about this and the and the fund-raising plan in general, when we return with amy, sample ward, stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from a standup comedy, tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page. Tony martignetti dot com i’m christine cronin, president of n y charities dot orc. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Hi there again and welcome back. Uh, anything more that you want to say about print in support of this, i would i would add that prince should certainly be needs to be in this fund-raising calendar with a campaign calendar that we talked about last month and it’s something that we’ve talked about in the past, i forget what episode number, but we talked about competition and how teo, you know, if if you were doing a phone bank, for example, of donations and you and you mentioned the research shows, at least if you were to mention, you know, the previous collar don’t thisyou know people are more inclined to say, well, i’m going to do that if someone else did print is a really easy way to do that as well, because you clearly know where they live, you are mailing something to them. So say, on average, people in your neighborhood donated this last year to our campaign. Oh, my gosh, now they like now i’m going to look in on my neighbor’s like which ones of you donated one hundred dollars? Now i feel guilty, i’m going to donate a hundred dollars, you know? So so keep those same principles that you use online with making it be a riel story, having it connected to something directly when your mission have a very clear call to action. But then take advantage of that local competition that peer pressure of this is this is really, really in your neighborhood. But also this is how people are actually helping us. So you should too. We can also have competition in telemarketing right in our telephone call once just remind i think this may have been last month, but in the way that callers are greeted, andi encouraged or thanked for their past giving there could be some competitiveness. Exactly. Exactly. So i’m not just saying like, oh, thanks you want to donate, but also, you know oh, you have reviews caller. Exactly. The previous collar donated this. And if you can, if you can hear sometimes, you know it’s it’s hard to just make a judgment. But if you could hear that it was a male calling and you could say, oh, well, the man before you donated this, if you if you have that opportunity to be gender specific, the results or even hyre from studies that say, you know, once i’m told the previous collar was a woman and she don’t even more than me well, man, i want to donate as much as her, so all right, let’s, let’s wrap up our campaign with the thank you’s yes, thank you’s are critical and thank you don’t have to be at the end of the campaign. Thank you should be every time someone’s done something, so when they sign up for that email lists, you know, thank them if they donated, thank them, but also do that thinking in public when you can, you know, you’ll see people in the campaign putting on facebook that they, you know, because they got to the thank you page, the confirmation page, and they tweeted, or they posted to facebook that they just donated, well, that’s a great place if the organization is then liking that post, if you you know, privacy settings are such that you can see their post or on twitter, the organization is retweeting them to them that’s huge validation the organization noticed that i just tweeted out, you know, that i donated and i’m i got retweeted or i got thanked publicly and that certainly doesn’t take, you know, a lot of effort, you’re not creating any new content you’re just saying thank you very much, but it can mean a lot publicly for the community to see those individual voices being thanked. How do you feel about the mailing of small, maybe small tokens? Oh, yeah, of gratitude o i think i think a hand written note, even if all it says is, you know, tony, thanks so much for your donation. Amy. It was a hand written note. It had to go through the mail, you know? It means a lot exactly could be something online, maybe maybe a little gift certificate or a discount to a site or something. Exactly how else can we say the small ways of saying thank you, right? And i there are lots of ways where, you know, and and ten we can say thank you by saying, you know, to thank you for what you’ve done here is a free webinar, for example, you know, web in our past, but for other organizations, it can also be an opportunity to say, because you donated, you’re now invited to this event that’s only for our donors, you know, so you’re also providing access to something that is otherwise exclusive, and you can use that as a way to say, hey, all of our donors are going to be joining us at this, you know, a local place that everyone knows is really fun or, you know, historic or whatever come join us in this, and it doesn’t have to be, you know, because he’ll be a national campaign, but you could say, if you’re a donor, you’ll get the link to the live stream and you get to be there for this interview with our founder or whatever, and even if people don’t want to go it’s still saying, we know tony, you donated, and we want you as part of this conversation, just the act of inviting exact is very, very it is very gracious exactly in heimans larger organizations that i that i work with will often invite people on the other side of the country to a luncheon that we’re hosting in new york city to to say thank you right way don’t expect them to come. We know the observers are tiny that they will, but the act of the invitation what if they were going to be in town for other business where they were going to be in town, meeting with someone? And now they can say, oh, while i’m there, i’m also going to go to this luncheon because i donated and that’s really cool, you know, i’ve never asked you this. You’ve been on many times. What is it that you love about the work that you do, this whole body of work that you that you’re involved with? What is it you love? I i love the people like i love that we are in a position to get to support not just one person that we’ve met, you know, and, like, help them do whatever, but we can help hold communities that’s really exciting, you know, or that you can help all of those people in the community know that they’re in a community i mean, i think that’s the really exciting power of the internet is that people thought i’m the only person that has x y and z here and the only person it’s experienced this, and now they go online like, oh my gosh, i’m not special at all there’s a million. People who’ve had this and so part of it is that that feeling of like, i’m not special, but i’m not special because there are so many of these other special people you know, and getting to find them and create community with each other, even when you can’t all be physically in the same room. Her latest book is social change anytime everywhere you’ll find amy’s blawg at amy, sample ward, dot or ge once again a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Be sure and thank him for calling it. I will. That’s, dad, dad to you? Yes, next week i know it won’t be fermentation if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. Wee bey e spelling dot com a creative, producers clad meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez and this music is by scott stein he with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.