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Nonprofit Radio for May 1, 2020: Real Estate & Racial-Equity DEI

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My Guests:

Jane Brody: Real Estate

How have markets been impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vicus Partners.




Tristan Penn: Racial-Equity DEI
Tristan Penn shares how Coronavirus has disproportionately hurt Black and Indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your nonprofit. Tristan is NTEN‘s community engagement and equity manager. (This is part of our 20NTC coverage.)



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[00:00:12.24] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:23.24] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is our first ever show in 487 that is not produced in studio. I put it together using a dizzy audacity and zoom. Let’s see how I did. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I throw is Anthill asthma. If I saw that you missed today’s show Real estate, how have markets being impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vikas Partners and Rachel Equity D I. Justin Pen shares how Corona virus has disproportionately hurt black and indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your non profit trust. In his end, tens community engagement and equity manager, this is part of our 20 and TC coverage. Tony Steak, too. Take a breath, were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is real estate. It’s a real pleasure to welcome to the show. Jane Brody She is executive director at Vikas Partners in New York City. Before Vikas, she helped launch a mentoring program serving over 10,000 Children and a foster care program to help over 8000 teenagers in the system make the transition to independence. She’s been a consultant to Ben and Jerry’s UNICEF, the American Red Cross, Coca Cola and the Special Olympics. She’s done stand up comedy company is at Vikas partners dot com. Jane Brody Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:29.84] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Great to be here.

[00:02:31.52] spk_1:
Real pleasure to have you tell me about your stand up comedy. I’ve done some of that. What’s what were your gigs? Where did you do?

[00:02:38.54] spk_2:
Well, I took a little class, and I always like to do stuff that kind of scares me a little bit and challenges may. So then, after I did the class and we did kind of Gotham startup, I did a couple open mic nights and I was invited back, and I liked it a lot. But apparently the owner of the club who booked me said, You have to bring 10 friends next time and next time. So I didn’t wanna have to, like, burden people with asking them to continue to watch me and follow May. And I realized very quickly that my humor was very regional, like I understood, you know, New York comedy specific. But it’s much started to be able to be funny and all the markets and how good the major comics are about sort of national humor, right? I enjoy it. I recently just improv class because I like doing those kinds of things. I think it makes you fresh and it challenges you.

[00:04:14.57] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, I’ve done stand up comedy and improv. I took a bunch of improv classes that the Upright Citizens Brigade and I took some stand up comedy classes with this Manhattan comedy school. Um, I’ve played Gotham, but only, you know, like you. It sounds like I do the new talent shows where Oh, you got a visitor there. Okay. Um, do talent shows? Yeah. We bring hers. Brings you gotta bring 10 people or 12 people or 15 people or something in orderto in orderto Get your stage time. Yeah, but I agree improv especially. You know, it’s very good for speaking confidence. I loved it. I think it helps me a lot. I like those. Did you did you try regional comedy outside New York? Is that how you?

[00:04:19.04] spk_2:
No. But we discovered that afford median income. Who’s been doing it for 15 years? And he’s told us to the story how he lived in his pinto, basically and traveled from city to city, Pittsburgh, all the small markets and when market his his bits than his time and then he’d go to the next city in the next city. I was like, I’m not gonna do that.

[00:05:19.94] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s hard to. It’s hard to make money at stand up comedy very few people to, and it’s true. You know, I’ve never even thought of it, cause I the only place I’ve ever done stand up is in New York City. I’ve never wanted to be regional or national, but absolutely true. I don’t I’m not sure people would get me outside outside the clothes. Maybe Westchester that would be about as far. Um, right. So So let’s talk about real estate. And, you know, our listeners are small and mid sized nonprofits. Um, now you you know, the New York City New your New York City market Are you able to generalize like to the t broader than that when we talk about

[00:05:22.42] spk_2:
course. Definitely. I think the same. Planning things and considerations Air true for nonprofits nationally. And I on the international board with other tenant rep brokers internationally. So I always used to having conversations.

[00:05:38.41] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, um and so what are we seeing? Real estate wise around the pandemic. What’s the impact

[00:05:47.80] spk_2:
of certainly some things that you would think there are a lot more sub lets that are hitting the market transactions air down. In New York City of, for instance, it’s been down 40% in the first quarter. I think that it’s gonna be a very rich landlord reaching for us market more than you know, a tighter market where Layla is gonna be a little more difficult. So they’ll be more flexibility

[00:06:16.90] spk_1:
when we come out of this. And people are looking again for real estate. That’s encouraging. On the 10 inside that there’s gonna be that kind of flexibility. Like you said, you know, landlords reaching out, you think.

[00:06:23.87] spk_2:
And also I would say the other great. A huge amount of space that will be available will be retail. It’s gonna be a lot longer for retail to come back because of restaurants and all the other stores. That just a change of pattern of how people can access those spaces is gonna be very different.

[00:06:44.24] spk_1:
Um, when we you know, if any organization is thinking about changing real estate or just use, I guess maybe even just using their existing real estate when when we end up going back to offices. What other considerations there? How do you think things have changed in terms of office space usage?

[00:07:03.50] spk_2:
I think some of the considerations of the large brand tech companies, household names, air changing the amount of physical space per employee so typically was 175 square feet per employee. Now it’s going up to 300 square feet. Does that mean that they’ll be taking more space? I don’t think necessarily. I think people will be varying worked times and changing how many people can use space to a different time. They’ll also be technological impacts. For instance, people will be relying more on their handheld devices than that, necessarily having centralized computer systems, touch lists, entry to spaces, booking of conference rooms, anything where there’s high touch experiences. I think also just the way that people interact. There won’t be as many large group meetings, and the way that we work together will be very different. For a while, you

[00:08:06.40] spk_1:
mentioned booking conference rooms. What you mean? Like, if there’s a, uh, there’s booking a reservation system outside the room and lots of people touch it, is that

[00:08:16.84] spk_2:
it actually, or, you know, touchless check in. Sometimes people hand you and I have had to check in when you go into a space for security. So I think some of those things will be rethought and they’ll be more innovations along the way that we work together in a virtual way. And I think people’s ability to work at home and the office will be expanded. We’ve all adjusted, and we might have several waves of what’s gonna come ahead. We don’t really know.

[00:08:44.04] spk_1:
You know

[00:08:44.26] spk_2:
what I think we’re all anxious to get back to work and be together.

[00:08:47.85] spk_1:
You said, um, typical was 175 square feet per per employee. I don’t that’s that. That sounds like a lot, but is that the average is the average cubicle 175 square feet of space?

[00:09:26.94] spk_2:
Uh, roughly. I mean, there’s lots of different ways they call it bench seating. If you’ve seen lots of staff in small desks in front of them, that could be a slow is 100 per person or 75 square feet per person. I think it’s gonna be more generous than it was before, and we’d have large bullpen seating with lots of people in rows. I think that’s gonna look different. And also, I think they’ll be more spacing between desks and the physical nous of space changed.

[00:09:33.85] spk_1:
Yeah, I e. You know, you said, you think it’ll it could go as high as like 300 square feet per person, which is almost almost double the 1 75

[00:09:43.10] spk_3:

[00:09:50.74] spk_2:
not sure are non profit clients conduce that as as generously, Yeah, but that’s what I’m getting at right. I think it depends on what are non province use the space for. So that’s part of determining what the next steps for the non profits are. You do you have to have a large H Q like mothership. Do you need small offices? And in the various communities you’re serving, what will be the physical footprint of the space that you need to have some fulfill? Your mission, I think, is kind of part of the new sort of long term strategic planning into Cove it and in general, for non profits.

[00:12:18.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice oven experienced partner You, JJ, Doom and Affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com. Now back to real estate with Jane Brody, and I see I fix that mistake with Jane Brody’s name. This audacity is so you can get so compulsive with it. It’s so alluring to take out every, um and on then. But if I if I take all those out, you’re gonna wonder. Who the hell am I listening to? Where’s tony? Sums and ours and his mistakes. So I’m not taking out everything. That is a slight imperfection. Some some things. You know what? Some things have got to stay the same. Every damn thing cannot change that. We’re accustomed to its It’s doing settling. I mean, there’s enough changes already to non profit radio. I’m keeping in the arms in the eyes and the okays. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I’m keeping those in, um, there. I’m keeping that in. Some things have just gotta remain the same. I am not perfect in the way I talk. And by now, after 487 shows, you don’t expect me to be so the hell with audacity, ease, intricacies and perfect ability. I’m not taking advantage of it all anyway. It’s time for a break. No. Anyway, here’s more back to real estate with Jane Brody. When should we start talking to our existing landlord about whether we’re going to stay or about renewing? How early should that conversation start?

[00:12:34.84] spk_2:
It’s really two pronged approach. A lot of people think Oh, I haven’t talked to my landlord and they go towards very close to the end of the least. That’s not really the best model because it leaves you kind of trapped, dealing directly with your Lambert. What the best approach is a year, two years, a year and 1/2 before your lease is expiring, kind of figuring out what you really need the space or and what the purpose and function of your space. You have the right spaces. It’s the right size, or you’re in the right market in the right community and then engaging a broker which has no cost to you. The commission’s air baked into the deal, and what you do is you have your broker find you at least two or three options that you like. So you go on on tours, understand the market, see what your space would cost across the street, in the same area you like to be in, you get a negotiated, non binding letter of intent that your broker can work with you on. And then once you have a deal in place, then you can go to your existing landlord. We call it kind of a stocking horse in the trade, which is here’s something that I could get if I have to move, can you beat it? can you match it? What can you do with this existing opportunity against what? Staying in place? Most people want to renew and stay in place. And your broker can also negotiate that with your landlord. So you wanna have sort of two tracks. The best is at least a year and 1/2 a year into place because it takes probably a month to find the right space. You negotiate the letters of intent, take you at least a month to do the lease, and then if you have a build out, that’s four or five months. So that’s a good amount of time. Plus, everybody has Stakeholders may have you the board involvement the various teams in your organization. Does this fit the needs of the organization, and then you have to kind of engage everyone in the process.

[00:14:56.64] spk_1:
So where you call a stalking horse, I will just call leverage, right? You want to have. You won’t have another deal in hand that you can present to your current landlord and say, Look, you know, I could move, but everybody knows you don’t really want to move right. I mean, it’s a big hassle moving, sure, but you want to have some leverage over the over the person? Absolutely. So I can see why you got to start, like a year and 1/2 in advance,

[00:15:19.11] spk_2:
or I just want to make one other point. Tony. Some people are afraid to challenge their landlord because my landlord’s so great. He’s been a donor to my organization, and I think, uh, I think sometimes nonprofits are intimidated by that, But I people very much treated as separation of church in ST and ST you make a donation to something you believe in and on the other part of the isle you can certainly negotiate a least one has nothing to do with the other.

[00:15:31.87] spk_1:
And you made the point that a broker is free to the tenant, right?

[00:16:13.13] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, that Brooklyn tony that that works from a from a Do you else to end point is commission is baked into the transaction, and it’s a very old schtum. So in every transaction, there’s a landlord broker, an attendant rap broker. If you don’t have a tenant rep broker, and basically you’re just handing the condition completely over to the landlord broker, and I like to kind of talk about in terms of the wars. Wouldn’t wanna have one lawyer kind of representing both sides of the equation. You can. So you look for somebody who understands your work in your mission and can act on your behalf and, well, looking at the same data. So that’s another thing people think. Well, let me hire Let me get three or four people running around for me, but it doesn’t really work that well because we all look a co star, which is a proprietary database that we all subscribed. Teoh.

[00:16:31.94] spk_1:
Okay, so everybody’s got access to the same listings. What? You said that in any community, that’s nation

[00:16:37.28] spk_2:
yet it’s national, its international. Okay,

[00:16:39.91] spk_1:
okay. All right, So now all right. So we know we should start, like, maybe two years, a year and 1/2 in advance of the expiration of our least. So now what do we need to be thinking about in terms of our new space Or, you know, our existing space?

[00:16:55.26] spk_2:
Well, one thing that I think is really important is a good match with right land board. So I have just a couple of examples that really kind of illustrate this one is this organization I worked with? They they, uh, took in donations for babies. 03 year olds. They would get strollers and books and clothing, toys, and people would come with you could imagine garbage bags full of treasures. And then they would come to the building full of all their stuff in their hands, cribs everything and come into the lobby and go up in the elevators and make the donation on. And then the clients would come with not themselves or just their baby. They would bring five or six people because, you know, day care is a huge challenge for low income families. So a particular Landler didn’t like all that additional foot traffic,

[00:17:47.69] spk_1:
right? Probably bags of stuff being hold onto the elevator to Right?

[00:19:07.24] spk_2:
Right. So you’re crowding my other tenants. You’re crowding my elevator, you’re holding things up. So I was able to find them a landlord that adores what they do. They actually make donations, they help them with all kinds of support. And I recently ran into the landlord at an event, and they’re like Jane finding more tenants like this. We love what they dio and I have another case where I worked with this organization called Chess in the Schools. Wonderful organization had been in the building 17 years, and they had this, like, huge 12,000 foot space that was shaped like a pizza pot. I mean, how somebody designed this thing with slices as the various zones, but it was really expensive rent for them. They had downsized, but they had this, like, really strange requirement that once a week, 80 young people high school kids came to play chest, so they needed a certain kind of space. The landlord worked so hard to keep them in the building. He he helped me find the space within the building that was 4500 feet, renovated the space for them. And then there was no lag way leaving their old space and moving out of two years earlier their existing lease and gave them a brand new lease going 10 years, four. Very unusual. So if you get lucky with those kind of connections, so I always try to find landlords that are the right match for clients, I think it makes a big difference,

[00:19:28.74] spk_1:
and you have to be upfront about what your work is so if there are gonna be families coming through, You know, with kids, you know, the class A space landlord, you know, may not want that because they don’t want Children in the lobbies or if it’s gonna be folks with disabilities. And you know, some landlords may not be at all sensitive to that, and others may be completely embracing of that. So yes, true, we’ll be upfront about what kind of traffic you’re gonna create if it’s not strictly an office environment.

[00:20:13.39] spk_2:
And that’s really educating your broker to really understand your organization. And I kind of think of it as kind of putting that mission on my back and trying to, like, think about what that executive director or board member needs. I’m working with an adoption agency right now and one of the things that was really important to them. And I really thought a lot about this when I when I speak about this particular client, is they have birth mothers who are, you know, young women. Sometimes there are, you know, compromise situations. They’re kind of a lot of anxiety around giving your baby up for adoption and going to like a mainstream building where you’ve got turnstiles. Intense security screenings would be could be intimidating. So finding them a sort of quieter block building where they could walk in themselves, created in the best way. And also there’s confidentiality issues. There’s programming. So how can it be very front facing an appropriate for that particular client and meets the needs of the organization?

[00:21:14.64] spk_1:
Okay, yeah, I see. Just maybe just even giving their name at a security desk is, I don’t know, intimidating or off putting to a clientele like that

[00:22:20.64] spk_2:
or shelling a driver’s license or so really kind of matching what you’re trying to accomplish in this space. And I also think understanding what you’re using the space for Israeli import, you know? Are you doing classrooms or you’re doing training? Are you doing touchdowns? Space for your feet fieldworkers? I had one particular client who ah, was an arts organization. After School Arts Organization. It was created in the seventies when all the arts organizations were taken. All the art teachers were taken out of the school systems, so these two former teachers started organization and they hire freelance artists to come into schools, you know, lovely idea. Filling a need and then the schools would contract for these part time workers. This and they kind of grew the organization unwto through little tiny apartments that they were renting in the community in the city. So this executive director said, let me create one central place for the organization, a place where the artist can come, receive their materials, have training, have collaboration. And it’s really changed the environment of the organization and the way that the employees and the artist kind of bond on having a ton, equal footing and a connection in a place to be together.

[00:22:44.04] spk_1:
All right, Jane, um, so let’s talk about some common mistakes that you see that non profits, you know, can hopefully avoid,

[00:23:27.94] spk_2:
I would say typically timing, not having enough period of time to think about your space. So we talked about a year and 1/2 or two years. I’ve had people call May I’ve got a month left to my least. What should I dio? Okay, that’s certainly not doesn’t put you in the driver’s seat, right? Making sure that you have all the stakeholders involved in the process. The development people, your board, your your staff, understanding what you’re trying to accomplish in your space search being isolated and just working through the operations people. That’s really important. Another important part is that you could afford the space and that it fits with your budget. I mean, certainly Cove. It has been a real lesson and understanding the financial impact of things like rent to those air key mistakes.

[00:23:44.91] spk_1:
These mistakes, we’re gonna be reduced because we’re raising people’s consciousness about about them. All right, Um, all right, so I mean, I love it. You hit this a couple times, but you said that you can’t stress enough the importance of starting early. So you you have time. It’s not a crisis. You’re not trying to find space and negotiate a deal in three or four months, which may not even be doable,

[00:25:35.69] spk_2:
I think also, I want to mention just another example. I worked with a food pantry early on, and it was really interesting this particular organization, great organization, New York Common Pantry. And they had received a grant to help senior citizens receive food distribution through senior citizen centers. So it was a new program. They were gonna have vans leaving the central location going out to these new communities and providing food. So when we started looking for space and understanding what they could do, you started learning a lot about crazy things. Like if you get all this food and then your new distributed the weight of the food and the canned goods and all the foods that will be distributed could be really important on the weight of a building, so being in a second floor wouldn’t work. So we ended up being in a ground floor small warehouse, and then they had some other programs. Programmatic needs counseling. Nutrition program really split how they ended up solving the real estate. We had office in one location and food distribution in the vans and a different area. So sometimes the way that you solve the program programmatic needs can look different because of the the whole state weight breaks out. So it’s all pen of a learning experience some time

[00:25:42.44] spk_1:
and creative creative experience. All right. Jane Brody, she’s executive director and Vikas Partners. They’re at Vikas partners dot com. Jane. Thanks so much for being guest. Thanks for sharing.

[00:25:51.79] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Be safe.

[00:27:57.30] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software their accounting product. Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. You have a free 60 day trial on offer. It’s on the listening landing page. That’s the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take two. Take a breath, take a breath. Relax. You need to take care of yourself, not just once. Try to do each day, sit with yourself and clear your head. Focus on your breath. Meditate, nap. Whatever is good for you. Be good to yourself in a healthy, soothing, calming, loving way. There’s so much shit going down, and so much is being asked of you That is strange and difficult. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. You need it. Please take care of yourself, and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for racial equity. D I welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. You know the conference had to be canceled, but you also know we are persevering virtually. We’re sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin for a free 60 day trial. My guess now is just in pen. He is a community engagement and equity manager at n 10. The host of 20 NTC. Justin, welcome.

[00:27:58.74] spk_4:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:28:00.60] spk_1:
It’s great to have you. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we’re able to work this out. Virtually thanks so much. Yes. No, you’re You’re well and safe ing in Portland, Oregon.

[00:28:25.54] spk_4:
You know, I am. It’s some, you know, we’re all living a very new reality, So it’s definitely something that, uh, was kind of new to me. I worked 2 to 3 days a week, um, from home. But now I’m doing it all day. Every day

[00:28:33.04] spk_1:
of misery. Were maybe six years. Hopefully not seven, but maybe five for six days. Um, so you had really interesting topic? Ah, critical. Critical announces you what worked for us. A critical reflection of intends racial equity rooted. D I work? Yeah, I think this is obviously your responsibility at and then as

[00:28:50.28] spk_4:
that is, Okay,

[00:29:28.14] spk_1:
um and I’m still, you know, this D I is I’m 58 years old, so I didn’t grow up with this. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it, talking about it, struggling with it for and, you know, maybe not long enough, but three for 3 to 5 years, I’d say some ran. Um, so I have a pretty basic question, but I want to get it off my chest. What off, Mike? I wanted I want to get it out. Why? Why do you have to say racial equity rooted D I work, right? I would think that that’s just subsumed in D I

[00:31:10.70] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, I think there’s a lot of things, you know, I wanna give space because we only have 25 minutes. I could definitely talk for 25 minutes just specifically about this. However, I do think because we center all of our, um, racial our excuse me, our d I work with rooted in racial equity. It’s important to us because I think at the end of the day, there are a lot of systemic and oppressive things that have happened not only in this country, but also, um, within the nonprofit sector that really do effect people of color first. So, for example, there’s this idea of intersectionality, which does happen and is a thing. But also, like, you know, you can be a, um, a white woman who is just and still get a lot more privilege than a black woman who was disabled. So, um, so that’s just a just a bit of it all, too. And that’s why we center it with racial equity to explicit. Absolutely, Absolutely. And that’s not to say that it’s a binary where we are saying that racial equity above everything else and we’re not we’re gonna brush everything else off the table. There are other identities that, um, people identify with that air just is important. And, um, they they have their own, you know, marginalization within their own communities to, and those need to be honored as well to and considered. And, um, really makes in and made sure that they’re being prioritized during certain circumstances.

[00:31:47.94] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, well, you know, we we may end up going more than 25 minutes, because I Something’s according to meet it. What about this? This pandemic. How do you feel? Like this is highlighting. We’re gonna get there are. Actually two things I wanna ask you is exacerbating. Yeah, I want to start with almost over the highlight. How do you feel? Like this pandemic and the country and I’m focused on Let’s focus on the U. S. Yeah, uh, that has the reaction to it. They’re working from home. The we could talk about the s. My gosh, I could see how we usually go. 2125 minutes.

[00:31:52.27] spk_4:

[00:32:03.44] spk_1:
about the loan programs? Absolutely. Wherever you wanna go, How do you feel? Like the pandemic and the response to it have highlighted. Yeah, inequities.

[00:34:11.38] spk_4:
What a great question. Wow. So I can only speak from personal experience or just the identities that I bring to the table. So, um, I am I’m half black and I’m half Navajo. So my dad is black, and my mom is Navajo. And so, um, being that bi racial professional in the non non profit sector world, um, you know, as a black man and as a Navajo man as well, you know, you see these things and you have these very direct ties to the communities with which you navigate in and reside in the one thing that comes to mind is, um you know, all of my Navajo relatives. So I have a lot of member who relatives that are still on the rez on the New Mexico side. Um And so, um, one thing that’s really striking to me is that, you know, the last I mean, the numbers change every day, right? With these covert 19 cases. Um however, the last time I read it, um, it was, um per capita, the amount of cases after New York and after New Jersey, the next, um, the next amount of cases was the Navajo Nation under. Really? Yeah. And so that’s I mean, there’s their cases per capita, and I want to make sure that that portion Exactly. And so that’s really concerning because I have family on the rez. And also, um, it’s, um It kind of it speaks to the, um the years of historic, um, oppression And, um, you know, genocide that has happened with it within indigenous communities. Um, and how there has been, um, baked into, um, you know, communication and treaties and promises broken promises by the federal government. Why? This has kind of made, you know, this situation that we have now on the Navajo reservation. And I’m sure, um uh, among other tribes, something that is really, really pressing right now, there’s probably accounts everywhere. And so I just

[00:34:27.37] spk_1:
health care. Health care has been a serious negative problem. Serious problem on the indigenous peoples for generations, right? The health care on the reservations.

[00:36:01.23] spk_4:
And so it just ends up being something that, like, I hold near and dear to my heart because I think of all my family members that are on the rez and live on the Navajo Nation. Um and also just, you know, um, the the way in which, um, you know, the the federal government supports or doesn’t support the Navajo Nation, never being its own sovereign nation. And so I think there’s, um um this is really kind of, like, pushed everything to the forefront of what is wrong with the systems. And I think it also, you know, on the other side of things, you know, you see now as that this data is coming out, those who have passed away and died to come, Teoh, you know this illness, um, the majority of them are black people. And so that’s also concerning for me, Um, that, you know, I think that there is, um, something to be said for that. And I think, you know, that kind of also lends Teoh. There are people who aren’t able to, you know, work from home. They have to be out there to. And so I think it’s very interesting in a data point that, um as hopefully when all of this subsides will be able to look at and really sit through and figure out and find I mean, I would be willing to put money on, you know that. You know, people of color indigenous communities, black people and indigenous communities probably were disproportionately affected by this. This pandemic

[00:36:09.24] spk_1:
in terms of health care, unemployment, yes. Businesses closed, I

[00:36:35.13] spk_4:
write. And also systemic and systemic. You know, an institutionalized racism that has policies, practices that our priority not prioritizing them, or are looking over these communities to as well. If it goes past the health care and Maurin two systems as well, it’s not built for them. Um, because it wasn’t with them in mind. It was with white folks in line,

[00:38:25.22] spk_1:
right? Right. Okay. Yeah, we could We could certainly go hours on that. Yeah. Um, all right. I’m yeah, and I don’t And so I mentioned, you know, highlighting and exacerbating. I Yeah, I think when When the dust settles and we look at disparities in outcomes, we’re gonna find immigrants and indigenous folks disproportionately impacted in terms of, uh, well, yeah, the institutional racism that you’re you’re bringing out and just in terms of the more surface store things that that, you know, like health care and help get unemployment lost jobs. And I mean from I have a small business. And so I see the way those that loan program is, at least in these opening weeks of it or whether I should say we’re recording on according on Tuesday, April 21st and so far, the opening program the opening, uh, indications around the S B A. Programs are that, you know, big businesses air getting it, yes, and most likely predominantly wiped. Run. Yeah, and and small businesses that I think Congress intended it to help or are falling short. At least that’s yeah, that’s what’s happening in this first tranche of 250 billion. We’ll see what happens when there’s the absolutely next the next level, but I’m sure you’re right. You know, the because the system is rigged against and built in favor of Yeah,

[00:38:26.63] spk_4:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:38:28.16] spk_5:
yeah, yeah. All right.

[00:38:30.62] spk_3:

[00:38:32.02] spk_1:
so we’ve been 20 minutes already, and we haven’t even gotten to only about it away. About the time you gotta you gotta host that. I wanted to talk about the pandemic in these terms

[00:38:42.27] spk_4:
or yeah,

[00:39:16.89] spk_1:
I haven’t done anything, but also so thank you. Yeah, but don’t worry about the time that you got a lackluster host to deal with. It’s my my shortcoming. Um all right, let’s talk some. Let’s talk about in 10. Yeah. Um What? Ah, well, all right. Before we get into the details of in 10 how do you how? Open someone start this conversation in their own organization? Yeah, I feel like it’s systemically institutionally. Wait, Run. Well, that would be out. They wouldn’t feel it. That would be obvious. But wait, wait, wait. Policies. Yeah. Um, how did they kick off this conversation?

[00:39:23.82] spk_4:
You know, tony, that’s a really great question, too. And there’s a variety of ways to bring it up. Teoh, I just got done reading a really good book. Actually, that Amy shared with me. Um, about how Teoh Stopgap

[00:39:38.86] spk_1:
award and simple words are social media and technology contributor here on non profit radio. Okay, just for the for the 45 people out of the 13,000 who may not know who any simple

[00:42:00.09] spk_4:
Yes, She gave me a book about institutionalized racism and institutionalized bias on how that manifests itself in the workplace and more importantly, what you can do about it. So it’s one thing toe like, recognize it and be like, This is wrong. And this is happening. Another thing to start, um, to start bringing it up within your organization is at the root of your question is you know, what can you do? And there’s a variety of things that you do. I think the first thing that comes to mind, um, that I read in this book was the book. It’s called Recognizing Institutional bias. Um, I may have to, like, follow back up with you. I know it’s something like that, but I breathe through it, um, so I’ll I’ll give you the title of it later. Um, but she um But this book talks about, you know, it’s one thing. Excuse me to go about it as an individual, but it is. I mean, it’s kind of like one of those things where safety in numbers and so being able tohave an ally or someone within the organization that you can also push this work or were, too. So it means asking some hard questions, and it means asking some hard questions of yourself as well to. And I think that’s the key point. Um, as well is realizing that, you know, we all have implicit, um, biases that we have in our head. Um, you know, when we think of cats, we think of cats, as you know, very. You know, Castile. They kind of take care of themselves. Some cats aren’t like that, though, you know, And so I think going into it, we have to really check those ideas about certain people, people from communities that have been informed, those implicit biases. We have to make sure that we’re good with ourselves or not even that we’re good with them and that we’ve reconciled them but that were aware of. So I think that was a really big take away point for me. Um, you know I’m 1/2 black man. I’m a Navajo man. Um, I have implicit bias, you know, everyone does. And so I think being able to understand that before pushing this work is really key to this. You have to really kind of strip yourself bare and understand that, um in order to push this work forward, you’re going to have to do some self work as well.

[00:42:17.87] spk_1:
Implicit biases. Is that not the same as stereotypes?

[00:42:20.30] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Some people call stereotypes. Yeah,

[00:42:24.77] spk_1:
you gotta You gotta be conscious of your own stereotypes.

[00:42:58.50] spk_4:
Exactly. We don’t politicize. Yeah. And sometimes those stereotypes are very obvious to you. You you think about them. But also, there are some that are very deep within your subconscious that come out without knowing, too. And so then it’s one of those things where you start. You have to be reflective and think, Gosh, where is this coming from? Where is the stock coming from? And where is this belief coming from? And really dig down deep into it. Um, I think another thing to that, um, when you push this type of work forward or are start to prioritize this work you have to think about you and I were talking about this earlier is, you know, the climate of the organization. Um And where in what? In the environment of the organization, some organizations have their heels in the ground, and I have experienced organizations like that where their heels air in the ground and they’re like, we have a D I committee that meets once a month and that’s it. Check box checked. We’re done with it. We don’t have to do anymore work. We don’t have Teoh, you know, examine the policies and practices in the environment that we put forward with an organization. So that’s a non starter for a lot of people. And in those

[00:43:37.63] spk_1:
organisms, on top of that r R D I committee, it has black black people in it. Yeah, so we’ve We were an equitable organization. Exactly to blacks on our equity committee.

[00:46:01.08] spk_4:
Exactly. And so I think those are things that I have experienced those there is half organizations where, you know, that’s the thing we call tokenism within. Let I wouldn’t even say within the d I world. That’s just tokenism, period with in whatever world you want to live in. And so that’s That’s a tokenism thing. And sadly, I’ve fallen victim to that in my earlier years of, you know, when I was a young professional of, you know, really being eager and wanting to please white leadership, Um, and realizing that I wasn’t pushing forward d I work. I was not contributing to it, but I was a victim of it. Um, and it was a system much larger than the the actual work that I was putting forward, and it was really sad, and I had to remove myself from those situations and those token izing situations. There was once a month d I meetings where I was that the token eyes per person of color that was having to bear my soul about some very, very deep and emotional topics. And so I think a lot of times, you know, you have to as a person who’s pushing this forward specifically, and I’m you know, I say this directly to people of color and organizations and non profit organizations who are the one to, you know, third person of color in the organization. I mean that that’s a big, big hill to climb to, and it’s not insurmountable. But what I will say is, you know, you have to be able to check in with yourself as a person of color and as a, um, as a professional of color, Um, be a black being Beit, indigenous, being Asian, um, agent. And so I just think that you have to check in with that because and be very hyper vigilant and aware that, um, some folks may want to token eyes you in a way and being ableto have, um, practices and things in your back pocket, too. Disrupt knows those policies and procedures and practices and then either move forward or remove yourself from the situation.

[00:46:09.88] spk_1:
Checking in with yourself means, like the official question. Is this even worth doing at this organization?

[00:46:11.41] spk_4:
Right. And maybe

[00:46:12.44] spk_1:
Do I have any ally or there are other potential allies? Okay, go to potential allies, and they turned out not to be allies. Is it even worth doing in this organization like you say, you remove yourself, Go elsewhere?

[00:47:29.58] spk_4:
Yeah, and it because. And that’s really sad, too, because I think a lot of us in the nonprofit world are, um, you know, we are so passionate about the work that we dio We wanna, you know, we kind of pride ourselves. And I did this for a very long time when I worked in use development. You pride yourself on the number of hours that you work. You pride yourself on working overtime. You pride yourself on for the bare minimum, you do that. And then you have larger organizations that are typically white Run. That’s hold you hostage to that belief. And that’s really and that was I mean, I heard that maybe two or three years ago, someone said it much more beautifully than I just did. But on I wish I get credit them, but I forget who it was, but it really is those, I mean, and that’s a very big systemic, um, problem within the nonprofit world is that, you know, a lot of times white leadership will hold those those middle level, middle level, direct service middle management folks. Um, be it you know, people of color or not to their own jobs. To that to that own passion. I

[00:48:03.03] spk_1:
thought you loved our work. Exactly. We asked you when you came here three years ago. What moved without the work and, you know, using that work against them in some fashion time for our last break turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard even through the Corona virus cacophony. They know exactly what to do to make it happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for racial equity, D I? In fact, this runs long because it’s a good conversation with Tristan that I did not want to stop. The total show is roughly 75 minutes,

[00:48:15.97] spk_4:
and it’s like the byline of you know, non profit works. Sometimes, sadly, is like we’re not in this for the paycheck, you know,

[00:48:23.25] spk_1:
Passion, passion, shaming.

[00:50:25.86] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so I mean, and so when you put you take that in and of itself, within the nonprofit world, and then you layer on a racial inequity that’s like also, you know, people are stuck folks of color. Black folks are stuck with it between a rock and a hard place within their job. They want to make money toe like live to pay their bills. They want to have a job to do those things. Yet they’re stuck in an organization that is holding them hostage to the work that they’re doing, and so that that’s something that I think is I went off on a tangent. But I also think that you have to be very aware is this Is this organization ready for this? Is this organization really about this work? Because it’s gonna strip a lot of things bare for the organization that they may not like, you know, And that made that push against that culture dominate that white culture, dominant belief and systems that have built the organization toe what it is today. So, for example, it means, you know, how are we working? Are we working every single meeting toe have some sort of end results? Um, you know where we come to a conclusion at the end of every meeting? That’s white, dominant culture in and of itself. Sometimes we have meetings that don’t have a big or clear and result, and we need to be okay with that. Um and so I think about that. And I think about my past, you know, roles that I have held in use development and how many times I’ve been in a meeting where it’s like we have to get X and Y and Z done by the time. But in two hours we have to pound out a budget in two hours on DSO. I think being able to work, and I’m not saying that like and 10 is one of those, you know, shining places on the hill. But I love it here because Amy gives us the space and latitude to sometimes not have toe have meetings that maybe we didn’t come to a clear conclusion or that there’s not an expectation that we have a solid, you know, um, a solid solution that we come out of

[00:50:31.72] spk_1:
their outcome by end of me and meetings or just a microcosm of the total work, that because the work is constantly a journey absolutist repeatedly, you know, it’s not done at the end of a year or 18 months. And, you know, like you were saying different example though, you know, check, we’ve done our We’ve done our diversity work

[00:50:50.11] spk_4:
right right

[00:51:06.97] spk_1:
now. Now, we just banned the committee or the committee Lance to be six months every six months or something like that. Yes, the meeting is just a microcosm of the of the overall structure and progress and journey you say in the description of the program, then 10 journey. It’s never It’s not really never completed.

[00:51:15.12] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s never done. And it definitely doesn’t live solely with me. And I think this is the one thing that I particularly like, Um, in this this role that I’m in within 10 and working so closely with Amy with D I work is the idea that she and I are a team, um, working towards this, I think a lot of times and organizations, they token eyes, a person of color, and they’re like, Oh, you’re the equity person. You’re the equity director. You’re the X, y and Z, which is fine. It’s great. I’m all for that. But a lot of times there are situations where or organizations that put it all on that person. And they’re like

[00:51:52.79] spk_1:
the person has no with no authority, exact lots of accountability, but no authority,

[00:53:04.39] spk_4:
right? And so what I really like and appreciate is that Amy pushes me, and I pushed back on things that we’re working towards and, um You know, I say I pushed back, but also she and Ira will learn personality anyway, So a lot of times, um, she’ll peek around the corner from our office when we when we worked in offices. Um, you know, and be like I was thinking something like, Oh, my gosh, I was just thinking that. So I think it also helps be specifically with her. And I really are, um our relationship is that she and I are just very similar. Um, and, um, I think that does help. But I also appreciate her as a leader being able Teoh ask questions and prioritized racial equity not only when she’s thinking about D I stuff, but when she’s thinking about the budget. When she’s thinking about NTC when she’s thinking about, um, you know, all of our I t endeavours, all of our community pieces. Um, I appreciate that because that says to me as a person of color and more importantly, a someone who’s, um, you know, a ah person who’s working for is that Oh, this person’s in it for riel. Yeah, Amy talks. The talk walks the walk, and again, it’s not toe like, you know, game points with a Me, too. Because for that you

[00:53:18.07] spk_2:
were you making

[00:53:18.66] spk_1:
the point of the importance of leadership that has to be leadership support by in, you know, whatever it’s called or else you are, Well, not the person committee or the entire endeavor is just gonna be, you know, without without teeth,

[00:54:48.24] spk_4:
right? Yeah. And so that’s what I appreciate her as a leader, even though I’m the person that has the role that pushes it forward and stewards that she’s right there with me helping me and asking those questions on an executive level and on a board level two and prioritizing those questions. And so that’s something that I really appreciate as an employee, but also separately from that, like as a person of color, as an indigenous man, as a black man. I appreciate those things, Um, and so it’s it’s kind of 11 of those situations where, you know, talk is cheap, you know? And, um, you know, she walks the walk, and I really appreciate that. I’ve, you know, worked with a lot of white leadership in past organizations that I worked in, where they talked to talk. They love a good. You know, feel good session about D I stroking their own egos and all the things. But when it comes, it comes down to it when there are policies that they’re pushing forward and meetings that are directly, you know, working against racial equity, that’s not it, you know? And so those are examples that I think of where I’m like. Gosh, I wish I would have spoken up. Um, but but, you know, within 10 I don’t feel that. And that’s something that I I’m gonna hold on to it and hold onto it tight, because I know that this is a good thing. And I’m really, um, you know, glad and blessed to work on a place that prioritizes those things.

[00:55:13.17] spk_1:
Can you tell a story of an example of something that on its surface is not inequitable by? Maybe you pointed it out, Or if not, use something. It became obvious that it is inequitable. Yeah, you brought it to the organization and a chain jumping

[00:57:48.23] spk_4:
right. So I’ll give an example, and it doesn’t really point out a specific person, but it points out, Is Berries easy thing that no one had really found it within the organization within our organization. I know a lot of people think, Oh, wow. It’s like this multi tiered, you know, organization with lots of people. There’s only 15 of us, so, I mean, the way we work is very collaborative anyway. And so, um, once we have a job, sport where folks immunity are able to post open positions on the community s so a lot of times it’s organizations that will want to post a open position that they have on for the longest time, we didn’t, um we as an organization didn’t have, um, a requirement for salary. So when people when there was a salary field for organizations to put in, um, you know what? How much this person was going toe radio? Absolutely. They leave a blank, right? D o e dependent upon experience. Um, and if you look at that, too, seems pretty like, oh, standard. We see it all the time with, like, you know, you know, we go on linked and we go on any sort of jobs board site. Yeah, They probably don’t, you know, put the salary, and a lot of times it’s dio we and, um I I myself was like I don’t see like why, you know, there’s like an issue with that, too. Until it was pointed out that, like, you know, this was This is a practice that is steeped in, um, whiteness and its steeped in patriarchal, the patriarchy. And so why do Why do organisations not do that? I don’t know. I can’t say that for each and every other word Is that what I can say is that when organizations don’t put a salary for a job or put d o e um, that disproportionately effects women and people of color. Um, because it contributes Teoh. And there have been studies that show that when it’s when there’s no salary, it discourages people of color. Don’t feel like they are, um, you know, I don’t want to speak for for all people of color, but there have been studies that have shown that, you know, it contributes to that pay gap. That gender pay gap

[00:57:59.03] spk_1:
okay, enables that’s what I thought. It enables disparities in pay

[00:58:00.60] spk_4:
exactly and so

[00:58:02.32] spk_1:
committed because you don’t have to commit in writing exact ranges 1 25 to

[00:58:57.62] spk_4:
one solidity on their maybe organizations out there that are like, Oh, this is a black woman that’s applying for this job. I’m going toe put my I’m gonna offer this job to this person on the lower end of that range, and that’s not fair, Um or, you know, because I didn’t put post my salary. I’m gonna lowball this this this job offer and that’s not fair as well to we want organizations that are going to put or post positions or job roles on our website to be up front with everything, too. We want to make sure that our community members have all the information that they have to make an informed decision about their future job. Future A future benefits so they can make the most educated decision on whether they want to join this organization or not. Do you

[00:59:02.44] spk_1:
know what’s what’s required for

[00:59:12.82] spk_4:
that salary? Yes, so right now it is required. That’s the only thing it so you can’t post a job of job opening without having a salary.

[00:59:15.53] spk_1:
OK, so array is arranged, Arranges acceptable,

[00:59:18.46] spk_4:
I believe, arranges acceptable. I

[00:59:42.21] spk_1:
think that’s okay that someone is coming being offered at the lower end of that range, and they feel their experience marriage something higher? Um, then they can brother on conclusion that this may very well be racial or gender based or some other some other classifications based beyond their experience. You could draw that. You can draw that conclusion for yourself. If you’re being offered the low end of that salary. Radio

[00:59:50.07] spk_4:
have some very badly for that with the rains that that was going, going it, Teoh.

[00:59:53.03] spk_1:
Otherwise, your you’ve got no information whatsoever.

[00:59:55.44] spk_4:
Absolutely. And so you’re like I don’t know what. And so a lot of times there’s just weird tactic that people do. It’s like, What do you think you should be paid? And it’s like, you know, don’t turn that on its head. You know exactly what this job is worth. Please put it out there so everyone is aware.

[01:00:12.08] spk_1:
Okay, My own conclusion,

[01:00:57.91] spk_4:
though, anyway, so we require that now, and that’s something that we all came together and talked about. I mean, I can’t say who I can’t remember who, like specifically brought it up as something a za point. But it was such an easy fix. Such an easy fix. And, you know, I’ve been you know, I keep on talking about past organizations I’ve been with, but, um, I’ve been in organizations where it’s like an easy fix, but it took three months to implement. It took a meeting une email thread, you know, Ah, heart to heart meeting about how this was. You know, sometimes if it’s easy just implemented, and this was one of those things that you know, start to finish, maybe took ah, week a week and 1/2 to get it all running a

[01:01:01.53] spk_1:
programming is all of a sudden it’s a required field when it wasn’t required before.

[01:01:05.85] spk_4:
I think things are red

[01:01:06.96] spk_1:
asterisk and has to be programmed in the back end that you can’t submit your form without that field being

[01:01:23.71] spk_4:
feel that there’s a there’s low hanging fruit that sometimes exists in an organization that no one’s really sat and looked at and been like, Why are we doing this? How can we do this differently? That’s in a more equitable way in an equitable, equitable, more former fashion. And I think you know, I also say that, you know, I bring up these this anecdotes just because, you know, I mean, there are a lot of other things that we’ve done that. Have? Really?

[01:01:39.11] spk_1:
Yeah. That’s a That’s a great one.

[01:01:40.66] spk_4:
Because lately that

[01:02:19.54] spk_1:
innocuous on its face, it’s completely innocuous. Leave it blank if you want. Your Blanco are based on experience. It sounds perfectly. We’re doing that that way for generations. Based on your experience, you’ll get big. But now it’s locked in. You know what? We’re being offered a salary at the low end, and you can draw your own conclusion that why that might be exactly okay and no longer enabling. All right, Um, that’s a great story. Yeah, Um I mean, yeah, there’s so much we can talk about. Yeah. You mentioned in the description how racism manifests differently. A different levels of an organization.

[01:02:23.60] spk_7:

[01:02:24.50] spk_1:
First, a little bit.

[01:03:03.42] spk_4:
Yeah. So great question. I have, um, the ah, you know, opportunity and the privilege to serve on a, um A It’s an advisory. It’s the Committee on Racial on Racial Equity for, um, the it’s called Organ Metro. So it’s Thea Thea area local regional government that it’s, I believe, spans three, if not four counties in the Portland Metro area. So it’s a governing govern form of government that overlooks all four of us

[01:03:06.10] spk_1:
have to show off that I know Portland is in Multnomah County.

[01:03:09.04] spk_4:
Yes, I have to show. I

[01:03:10.54] spk_1:
just have to marry. Let’s have to show that off. That completely

[01:07:16.58] spk_4:
how I, um seven. It’s very much like a, uh it’s very much like a, um you know, council, where there’s council members that represent each district. And there’s also a c 00 that runs the entire organisation and government. Um, So, um, I sit on a, um on a committee that is tasked with making sure that racial equity is something that that governing body prioritizes and also is taking into consideration when it’s pushing or advocating for anything. So all that to say is that we had an opportunity Teoh to touch base with some leaders, potential leaders within this, this governing body. And, um, I think one of the questions that came to the top and that I asked you because it kind of goes back to your question of like, um, racial inequity manifests itself in very different ways on. And so if you’re a you know, a CEO of an organization, um and you’re like, yes, I’m about d I work. I live in. I breathe it yada yada. I do all of it on and I’m really passionate about it. Yet you’re a white person, and then you have to, you know, foreign partnerships with other area organizations, and they’re all white as well to what happens when you get into a room or you’re having to have big, you know, decision making conversations and everyone and there is white. Um, and, um and people in there are saying things that aren’t racially equitable. Um, and you’re sitting there in your belief that I believe I believe d I work. I know that it’s there, but the gravity of all these other people agreeing with this false, you know, or agreeing with this, you know, racially an equitable belief. You’re gonna have to push against that in that scary right to go against the grain of like, the larger group on. And so I I ask that because you know, our I just I bring that up because I think the phrase that comes most to mind to me is someone said it to me and I forget why read Reddit? Orde said it. But it’s always stuck with me as you move up within an organization, racial inequity on racism becomes more sophisticated, so it’s much, much easier to detect. Unlike a direct service, rubber hits the road level as you get to that C suite level. You know of an organization, it becomes more nuanced. It becomes mawr about tokenism. It becomes more about how you’re playing folks of color against each other or not even talking about it at all. Um, so I think that’s something that I’ve, you know, experienced in scene, you know, on a direct service level. When I first started right out of college, you know, when I was working for direct service, the the direct service staff of Color, the black folks, we’re always the ones who got, you know, assigned to jobs or assigned the locations that were less than favorable. And so, um, you know, it’s pretty straightforward. And then, you know, as we moved up within the organization, we realized that there was a token izing thing going on at the middle middle management level. And so, you know, I think that’s just one thing that it manifest in in very different ways, you know, in different organizations, but also across different levels To one level of, you know, racism may look, you know, one middle level of racism may look completely different at one organization that it doesn’t the other two. And so that’s why it’s, like a very sinister thing. Um, Teoh to be able to, you know, figure out for an organization.

[01:07:39.98] spk_1:
Um, let’s see, where can we go and sort of wrap up? Um, What you tell me you want? Oh, let’s bring it back down toe back to in 10. Because they were supposed to have been, but I let I wandered. Um um, deliberately So what do you want? What you want to share about? Sort of in closing in about intense journey, The work, the work that remains

[01:09:03.37] spk_4:
Yeah. Go. Absolutely. I love that. You said the work that remains cause there’s always work that remains. I don’t want anyone. I certainly don’t want to put on any, um, you know, false pretenses that we are. We’re there as an organization. We have arrived. We’re not. We have There’s always work that needs to. That has remained. That is remaining. And so I think that’s where I would start is that we have we’re on our own journey. We are, um, you know, moving forward intentionally and with respect to make sure that we are covering all of our departments and making sure that, you know, everyone is a steward of this d I work and making sure that it permeates every corner of our our organization. So that’s where I would start. I think you know, if folks are out there that are wanting to or your I mean, I specifically I speak Teoh, um, you know, CEOs, executive directors of organizations that are white. Um, this is the best time to push this forward. And it’s going Teoh not be easy. That’s

[01:09:10.83] spk_1:
what he said is the best time.

[01:12:27.75] spk_4:
It’s the best time because, you know, this is a time where people are, you know, there are country is and I don’t want to get you know too far into the political part of things. But like, you know, there’s a lot going on in our country to and, um, non profits are, you know, specifically smaller grassroots roots nonprofits are, um, you know, suffering A lot of times, a smaller grassroots non profits were run by people of color, so you know, I think in the spirit of non profit, it’s incumbent upon, you know, leadership to make sure that they’re helping. Not only there constituents, their employees, but also other nonprofits. So what does that mean for those CEOs or executive directors? This is the time, you know. And again I say that not in like, ooh, the stars have aligned these air that this is the time every time is a good time, You know what I mean? There’s no bad time to do this. This had this work has to be done. Um and so I would say that, you know, it’s it’s something that will pay off for years to come to. You’re going tohave employees when you start to prioritize, you know, d I work and not only within, like the D I department, but also just d. I work across your organization across departments and start to look critically how you can change and morph and transform into. I’m an anti racist organisation. You’re going to realize that a Not only are you a happier person be your employees are happy to be there and happy to do work, because inherently, when you a drew racial inequity. You’re addressing a lot of other inequities as well. You’re addressing, you know, gender inequity. You’re addressing LGBT Q. I A plus in equity as well. Those things will come in that makes employees happier. And what does that do that starts informing how you interact with your employees? Not only its not only informs it, but it starts to shape the things that you hold near and dear, both individually and as an organization, and your employees and staff will see that they will see that and they will want to stay. And that Matt effects. You know, if for those data folks out there, you know, staff retention, you have folks that are going to stay for the long haul because they believe in the work that you dio and what happens, you know. I mean, a lot of people think, you know, in in organizations or in business, you know, the customer is always right. Customer’s always right customer first, you know, or your that your communities that you’re serving our first and yes, that’s right. And there’s a grain of truth in that. However, you can’t serve your customers or your um, your the communities in which you’re serving or living in. If your employees aren’t served first and aren’t being prioritized, it’s kind of like, ah, flip of mindset that you have to dio So that would be my encouragement. And that would be my, um my you know, last piece that I would end on Is that like, you know, this is the time to do it, you know, because you know it. At the end of the day, it helps serve your organization to make sure organization stronger, and it makes your employees stronger. And it makes the relationships that you have with your employees stronger. Likewise that didn’t that, then goes into your, you know, direct service groups. You know, your communities that you’re living within. It makes your connection in your relationships more sincere and more bonded.

[01:12:51.55] spk_1:
Tristin pen, community engagement and Equity manager at N 10 s Justin, Thanks so much.

[01:12:58.14] spk_4:
Thank you so much. I hope I made sense. Thank

[01:13:51.35] spk_1:
you very much. You made a lot of sense Last sense and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 ntc remember, were sponsored at the conference by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us next week. Privacy. Best practices. I told you it was coming. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo.

[01:14:41.79] spk_0:
A creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. I did the post production. How did I do? Let me know. Sam Liebowitz managed to stream show Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots non next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for August 31, 2018: Stay Out of Email Jail & Real Estate In Prospect Research

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Buy-in hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of cola sister gas draws to me if you gold me with the idea that you missed today’s show, stay out of e mail jail and avoid deliver ability traps, segment reengage analyze what the heck is a pristine our non-profit technology conference panel breaks it all down. They are amy braverman from cdr fund-raising group and dan class skins with dv disabled american veterans real estate in prospect research. Maria simple is our prospect research contributor, and the prospect finder she returns with resource is tips and strategies for reactive and proactive real estate research. I’m tony steak, too, the late summer finger wag responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing capital p wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream, tony dahna em a slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four. Nine nine nine here is stay out of e mail jail from welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference coming to you from the convention center in new orleans. Sponsored, of course, by hosted by non-profit technology network and ten this interview, like all our eighteen ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guests are amy braverman she’s, associate director of digital media at cdr fund-raising group, and dan class ken’s, digital marketing strategist for dvd disabled american veterans. Amy dan, welcome hi! Thanks for having us. Thank you for having this time. Have you not brought radio? My pleasure. Your workshop topic is stay out of email, jail and avoid deliver ability. Death traps. Yes, that’s. Very good. And we now i covered this probably two or three years ago. And i learned that there’s such a thing as a une e mail deliver ability specialist that’s a title. People people study this stuff. You have to study this stuff to stay on topic. Okay. It’s a full time job. Really? Amy let’s, stay with you. Why? Why? Hyre what kinds? Of problems that we having generally, we got plenty of time together going to detail. Okay, start us off, general. Generally, i think our biggest problem is that there’s a lack of control there three main factors that kind of go into email deliver ability, and that is the email platform that you’re using you yourself, the non-profit and your best practices hyre how you’re sending e mails and then lastly, the mailbox providers, gmail, hotmail, yahoo outlook they all have different rules for how you get your emails in their inbox is how you reach your supporters and because of those three factors and the complexities that they all have it’s really tough. Teo, just stay on top of everything makes it a full time ok? It sounds a bit of a morass. Damn morass. Yes. Oh, i mean, absolutely. It’s changed your q. I think your radio probono hyre on dan. I missed the count. Well, i think what we’re finding honestly is people you want to engage with people that want to get they want you to engage with them, and i mean, we as marketers way are not really big fans of having to keep up. With these rules, but as a consumer, tony, i mean, you only really want to get the information that you’re interested in, and from that standpoint, i think google and yahoo and i mean they’re their jobs not to serve us it’s, to serve the consumer, and i think they’re doing a good job of it, okay? So they have the interest of their customers, principally, right? And not you other people are serving you, but not the email providers. Yes, i think i think the biggest challenge is it’s just it’s such a huge change of mindset, of going into it because, you know, in the in the world where i live in a stable american veterans, i mean, we’ve been one of the very large direct mail operator for a long time, and i mean, buying less ranting list, i’m as part of the direct mail business, and there you just take every address and amy and get you send a mail, right? It doesn’t work that way in the inbox anymore and it’s causing us to really change the way we think about how we do email folks and i think it’s also because it usedto work. Like that, i mean, email best practices years ago where send your e mails to everybody, everybody and anybody, we don’t care who you are. We don’t actually really care if you’re that interested in us or what you are interested in. And because of the fact that our in boxes are generates so much information. So many e mails? Well, yeah, i mean, it was even three years ago. I remember before i join cdr doing an email audit where that was the organization’s practice, and i was trying to explain to them, hey, we can’t keep doing this because you’re going to get these five percent open rates are going to ruin your center reputation, and they’re like center what? Like, you know, two years ago, i’m sure there was folks in our session today who are, like, we’re still sending to anybody we know about this segment thing, and we know why we should do it, but weren’t we have to it’s a total is dance, i’d like change your mindset of going from we want to reach everybody, and we need max impressions, too. We need to make sure that we are maintaining our reputation and how we’re interacting with our supporters, okay, this center reputation it’s a pretty simple phrase to understand, but it’s it’s it’s what? The platforms, the email platforms are these have judging the fight. They each have their own score that’s what makes it tricky? They don’t all play by the same rules. Yeah. It’s a morass, right? Yeah. I mean, extended reputation. We’re saying in our session today is basically like, your credit score is already done. Yeah, where you going? Outside or on the downside? We’re coming on the booze. You’re the khumbu. What? You even show happy hours here, right after this and the wind, the open bar non-cash bars only about twenty five feet away. Also we figured, hey, why not reach more people and tell them about all of our trials and tribulations and successes and maybe not such here’s the thing email, i mean, whether you’re a large non-profit like myself, a disabled american veterans or you’re the smallest non-profit in this room, this challenges facing all of youse gotta send her reputation. You know what? It or not? You’ve got one. You’ve got one, okay? And it may be good or maybe bad and it’s the same like analogies of your credit score. If you go to buy a car, you can buy a car with a bad credit score. There’s going to be huge interest rate, you can still send emails with the bats under reputation. You just might not be actually getting to the people. What are some of the factors that go into the centre reputation, dan? Well, i mean, i definitely understand it varies across email platforms. Yes, so i mean, how much people engagement your emails? Are they opening your e mails? Are they clicking on things who you’re sending it to? We’ve spent a lot of time our session today talking about spam traps and, you know, the providers out their pristine spam mail traps, for instance, or one where they actually put thes fake e mails out there. And if you’re not practicing best practices, buying list and doing these other types of activities where these e mails are on there and you’re going to them that’s a trigger that you’re not following these best practice. So there’s these traps out there, it’s like a land mine, and we’re just walking through there drops spam traps, there’s all kinds of so they’re seating bogus addresses on tow until lists that it shouldn’t be buying. Yes, okay. And you maybe what? What? What traps way covered four of them today. The four main ones we did the pristine. The next one is the recycled spam trap. And this is something that so pristine. The big difference is a human never had that they’re created tio by the email industry to make sure you as an e mails under r following good practices a pristine a pristine, pristine, pristine like a pristine beautiful beach with your note. But it’s not very beautiful. Now, it’s not okay, what’s a pristine okay, so the first teen is they’re created by non humans to monitor your email practices to make sure that email centres like devi or any non-profit or any for-profit consumer product is sending emails responsibly. How does it do that? How does it work? I have no clue because i am not that technical, but you can google and find out a little bit of i mean, look into pristine there other type of perhaps we talked about were like way too so for typos like you misspell it. Like instead of gmail g mall, yahoo without the one of the o’s or something that gets onto your list fake address. You don’t really want to give someone your address, but you need to complete the form. So if you’re sending to a lot of these like where the email addresses misspelled, they’re the domain is misspelled. That’s ah, that goes into this. Yeah, it’s not as much of a factor of some of their you know their heads. Different variants is teo, but they all play into it. It’s, time for a break pursuant. Their latest paper is pursuing e-giving outlook. You’ve heard me talk about it. They took the latest fund-raising reports. They boiled it all down. It’s ah it’s ah it’s! The thie essentials that you need from all the fund-raising reports that have come out recently all in one concise content paper plus there’s a video archive. Go to tony dahna em. A slash pursuing remember the capital p for please now, back to stay out of email. Jail. Okay. And then what was the fourth one? The fourth one is a role account. It’s a little bit more difficult to explain. But it’s it’s kind of in that same vein of, like, it’s? Not really you it’s something else that was added on there, and then the recycled, which we touched on for a second. But that is an email address that used to exist by a real human being and then is no longer in use. And after a period of time, the email provider the mailbox provider has said, this is not tru e mail address anymore. Okay, so they wait all these things together. They put them through their mash, and they decide on your center reputation. Yes, and it’s like a scale from one to one hundred. Anything above eighty is great. Seventy to eighty is saying you’re doing well, but you have room for improvement below seventy says, wow, you really need to fix your practices and that’s where it could impact you deliver ability. So so you’re saying the email providers will just not deliver your messages? Yeah, they just go off sometimes in the la la land buy-in we’ll sail on the whole the whole campaign with this one whole send all of it tonight could do that or it’s going to vary again. It’s going varies. Based on the timeline out provider that you’re going through to get to your constituents, that is okay, but you shouldn’t be risking obviously don’t want be risking it. I mean, if you’re if you’re below seventy with female, you’re in bad shape. I think the big thing is your score coming from coming from a fund-raising perspective at a non-profit like d a d i mean, we are driven by the ultimate dollar, right? So trying to get folks to realize that, hey, we can’t blast out all five hundred thousand of these people because half of them aren’t even open in the e mails if they’re not opening, they’re not engaging it’s, hurting all all that impacts deliver ability, but amy is found with us, and with other accounts of cdr and an industry has is we’re actually emailing less people more frequently, and we’re generating more revenue from it. Okay, okay, you’re deliver ability. Your reputation is hyre you’re engaging with, you’re sending two people who truly are engaging with you all those reasons, right? Exactly. Okay hey took the cliff notes version of our session today. We’re drill well. Let’s. Wrap it up. I got another. Fifteen minutes or so, roughly, but it’ll go fast. Kruckel okay, so we talk about avoiding the death traps, all right. Are there any more death traps? Anything we need to know about about what the industry is doing to snag us up recovered? Yeah. I mean, spam traps were the big thing. And the thing that we really shared with people today is that hitting a spam trap isn’t the end of the world. When you google for reports or to find out about spam traps, the resource is like what you’ll see back is all these very dramatic things that make you feel like a horrible e mail market or if you hit a spam trap. But it’s, not the end of the world you can really recover. And spam traps are telling you that you actually have a symptom of a larger problem. That there’s something going on with your email practices. That is just not working. And you need to take a look at it and figure out, you know, what will work. You know, i was actually thinking about this, dan, like when we hit a pristine spam trap in january of twenty. Seventeen and had a two percent open rate from an audience that we were getting seventeen percent open rates before so it’s a huge drop and it let us know we clearly have an issue, and i honestly think that hitting that spam trapping experiencing that was really the best thing has happened to us definitely opened our eyes and change the way we act. Yeah, you work together, we work together, we worked with cpr. Yes, dahna could never you could smoke whatever with your eyes not aware we want teo, especially our fund-raising right, it’s growing it’s always fund-raising growing doesn’t talk about sex vacation because that’s that’s a solution to this isthe dan, how is segmentation solution? I think just knowing what people are interested in and feeding them, information that relates to their interest is huge, and once again, i mean, we’re come from a world of direct mail where we’re mailing out this mail piece toe hundreds of thousands of people and that’s what’s cool about digital is you can really get it down to a very small interest group and hit him with that interest. I think what we’ve done with our segmentation has really paid. Big dividends and the fact that, you know, we’re able to see, because each of these people respond differently the types of messages to the different types of subject line, so we were able to test better with segmentation and overall, i just think that it goes back to what i said before, people that want to get our stuff, they’re going to get what they want and that’s, why we’re seeing the metrics and the click throughs and everything else respond accordingly. Is there any segmentation beyond interest? Well, yeah, i mean, we we got the frequency that they donate, obviously. I mean, you know, when’s the last time they made a gift, what type of action did they take with the organization? I mean, where do they attend a Job fair where they’re 5 k participant? Where are they? A veteran? Are they not a veteran? I mean, there’s, a lot of things of in segmentation there’s a lot of layers to it. You need a really good date. I think one of my challenges at our organization and we’re striving to get better every day is taken. All these separate databases out there that you know, these silos that exists and merging them together and having this global view of how this hand impacts this hand and, you know, it’s part of my job every day, and, you know, about amy and her cd, our team really works on developing great strategy, i’m in there educating the stakeholders and trying to manage, you know, all the politics that go on inside a large, large organization and, you know, making strikes, people are listening to what i’m saying, they’re so that from that point, you know, we’re doing good things, okay? Okay, amy, anything you want to add on deputation or you like them, dan covered, and i think the best thing about having dan as like our email partner or digital fund-raising partner and marketing is that he’s done an amazing job educating internally, learning, learning we’re all learning together and then getting those stakeholders bought in and if you’re a non-profit out there and you’re struggling with this, that is probably the hardest part is educating internal resource is and just stake orders about hey, we’ve got to make these changes because, yes, the money is still coming in, but eventually, if our center score continues to drop, we’re going to not see that money. No, you have a case study one hundred twenty six percent increased in open rates. Is that is that a tv or somewhere else knows it was that dvd. So when we hit that spam trap in our way, we’ll learn from what can we learn from it? We can learn that you need teo segment your audience. Find out what content is relevant to them. Get buy-in from internal state quarters and you can recover from any mishap that has happened to you. You can get open rates that go from two percent up to where ours air usually steady now in them twenties at twenty three. Twenty four percent. You know, we used to judge a good open raid at, like fifteen percent was an industry standard. I think for us a deviant cdr. I get bummed out when we’re not at a twenty two or twenty one. I’m like, oh, let’s, figure this out, let’s see what we can do. I think the other metric that is our new favorite is open to cliques. So this says of the people that open my email, this percentage clicked on. It and that tells you if you sent them content quick, something is like something in it, like click to a donation form, click to a survey promotion, more anything and that tells you if your message and the content you’re providing your supporters with means something matters to them, it allows us to also see the content they’re interested in. What are they clicking on? What aren’t they click on? I think the other thing that’s really played into the whole email challenge we face is the the idea of unsubscribes for spam people marking you as a spammer is like death sentence. I mean, essentially they’re saying your spam and not only they saying that they don’t want your stuff, but they say they’re your annoying them and that you’re not they don’t. They didn’t ask you to come there in the first place, and what we’ve learned and we’re learning every day is, you know, we sent out a large audience and you get a handful of spam rates, but the percentage is so low that it’s not as impactful if we just be about one hundred people and two people. Click on spam suddenly that’s two percent and that span percentage rate is another thing that plays into deliver ability. So one of the things that we’re working to do and put more in our strategy is to make it maur educate people how it have two unsubscribes easier making unsubscribes more available because if they don’t want to be bothered, then we want to stop bothering them. And that’s that’s really what these providers air forcing us to do. And at the end of the day, i think from from a consumer standpoint, it’s awesome, but from a marketing standpoint, a those that adjust and and go and change the way that they do things i think there’s still going to find probably way we’re fine is even more success than the way we used to operate have a hacker, the rial spammers getting through that because i’m you know, i’m marking junk all the time. A lot of i p addresses a lot of their spoofing are there? Or are they just there constantly turning over? Yes, every day i mean there’s a lot of everyday, they change, i think, there’s something like two hundred thirty four million spam traps out there. And there’s it could even be billion like it’s huge and there’s a a not a crowd sourcing thing that allows you to track spam and see how many traps are currently live and what’s happening in the internet just to give you like a thermometer checking the pulse rate of what’s happening out there because i know i know some of the bad guys are getting through. Yeah, they get there. You just want to minimize it. I mean, at one point, when we in order to get that very low open right, have issues that we saw. We probably hit a few hundred spam drops. You’re not going to hit one spam trap, there’s. Not like one out there that like. Oh, i hit the one you were going to hit multiples. You could hit three recycled like we celebrated huge success going from a few hundred two. We only hit three like that’s. Amazing. Because there’s. So many out there and it’s. Very easy to get to let’s. Talk about re engaging you. You touched on amy reengaging. People who aren’t engaged aren’t clicking. What are some tips for? For this let’s? Spend a few minutes on this. Yeah. I think one of the things that we all struggle with is it’s hard to say good bye to people like you want you know it as fundraiser isn’t even unsubscribes way don’t like to see that list, especially for what we pay the cost per acquisition in this industry is so high that it’s like it’s hard to give up on that, so what we’ve started doing is every time we’ll do it full, send sometimes to r un engaged file and will recover some people, which will see that as a win will take the hit on the spam complaint rate to bring back some more folks we’ve advertised to them in different channels, whether it’s, facebook or doing in male ads like for yahoo, our gene mail, those air this sponsored ads at the top of your inbox and then what we’re actually really focusing now on is how can we be a lot more thoughtful in trying to re engage so making the qualifications for who’s going to get that reengagement email stricter, you know, like let’s send to lapse donors from the last two years and see how that gets us let’s do laps donors the last year. Let’s do laps donors for a year and open an email a year ago. So we’re like working through to see what kind of rates we can get. Who we can bring back and figure out what that unique. What works for davey and that’s that’s. Kind of our re engagement tactics. What do you feel is a decent reengagement rate? I don’t think we have that yet. I don’t know, i don’t think we have that thing is every time we hit this un engaged audience so there’s good there, i’m out of it, but there’s bad too. So what we’re really trying to drew is sort of strike a balance of what that is, and i think it d a v for us as well, it’s harder not to crack because we’re dealing with a lot of different groups here, like we have our donors, as i mentioned right there, there’s the one point three million members of the organization that an entirely different group of folks we have our advocates, those that are part of our commanders action network, that air really interested our legislative issues and all these different arms out there. What might work in one audience doesn’t necessarily translate to another audience. So i think as you look at your organisation, you have to that’s where it goes back to the segmentation, understanding what drives those people, what motivates those people in the more data you have to support that, i think it will help you figure out what are the better strategies to re engage in these folks and at what point is amy said, are we willing to say goodbye? Is it possible that we’ve talked around it’s a little bit to figure out why your emails aren’t getting what? Why your emails aren’t getting through to you? Can you tell what whether you had a spam trapper was pristine? Or is it possible to evaluate that or you can their companies out there that can give you reports to tell you what types of spam traps you’re hitting to tell you how many different ip addresses air out there for you so there’s lots of different ways to figure out they’ll tell you what’s going on, but they won’t say, oh, this is specifically why you did it that’s kind of up to you to figure out, but chances are that you can get that information at least on how many types of traps you’re making your hitting because what it does it allows you then to do to go clean up your file, i think that’s another important topic that we haven’t talked on is let’s clean up the file. So now that you identified a problem, i hit to spam. Traps or one hundred, spam traps. Whatever your case may be, you can work with different services to have them look at your file. They match it up with the different mailbox providers, and they’ll tell you whether or not they’re valid email addresses invalid. Whether they have, ah, hard number of heart bounces off, bounces that, whether their spam complainer. So they have the propensity to hit spam on your emails. And what that allows you to do is put on lee, sent to the valid e mails. You know, take all of those invalid, take all the ones that are marked as spam, and put them in a group and not talk to those people. So then that also helps to ensure your developed deliver ability is happening, and that you have a good center score oppcoll way still have a few minutes left together. What what haven’t we talked about? That we should be flushing out more. I definitely think the tools we’re using, you know, different non-profits of different sizes have different tools, and she mentions a lot of these providers that score your tools, but just the tools that you have, i mean, obviously, you know, there’s big companies like blackbaud there’s the male chimps in the different things, but knowing how, you know, turning to them as a resource on some of their standards, because as amy mentioned before, there’s three parties in this and they’re one of the parties, so the googles and the yahoos and all those providers they’re i mean, they’re they’re the gatekeeper on that end, and we can practice our best practices there, but take advantage of those resource is out there. I don’t think that enough people actually go on and look at the research and the information that’s out there, and this is very nice that you’re saying that the email provider, the email providers they themselves put out there and, you know, amy and i, we’re we’re more marketers than we are techies. So if your organization has so somebody in charge of email that’s, more of a marketer or somebody in the communications team, for instance. It’s, good to loop in some of these folks i know for me and my organization. I have been lost without some of the stuff that cd ours helped assan cover. Having them to turn to is a resource helped implement some of these things because it changes every day to wave made a lot of progress. But this story’s not ending because then you could be two steps forward. One step back kugel changes something they’re not sending out of press release, right? We’re learning you want after that after after you dahna campaign or ascended it’s fun, you know the job’s never the same any day. That’s one thing that you can say for sure when it comes to evil marketing hundreds and like dan it’s totally right, you know, even us, as you know, as a friendraising agency are focuses on fund-raising and marketing, raising money and using the reaching out to your the platform that you’re using to send your email getting their technical help. It’s huge! I don’t think i would be where i am or as a group with davey without having the support of their i t department, they helped us do cem further very authentication called demark and deacon. Which folks can google learn all about it’s? A little bit confusing, but it’s really important? Because it insures that hackers aren’t spoofing your emails and that aren’t sending things under the dv domain that are actually devi. We have george in jail on twenty one radio you just transgressed seriously, we’re ah, i don’t think we have enough time to explain, but just repeat de marque de marketmesuite oppcoll that and decamp d market with the c a r c and d kim decay. I am i’ve seen these things in print. I don’t know what they mean. All right, we’re gonna let you off the hook. Thank you. Or sorry for the jargon jail. But they are. It is very important. Teo, just go and check it out. Go ask your i t department about it. They can actually educate you on these two terms and check and see if you need to get better email authentication and implement these leads to tactics. Okay, dan, anything you want o close with god. Give you a few seconds to close. No. Honestly, i just think that, like i said, it’s it’s every evolving, so it’s going to change a month from now, six months from now stay on top of your game. If they want you, they want you to contact him. That’s what you want to contact, engage him and make it more about them instead of about you. And i think the more non-profits do that, the more success they’re going to find that’s dan class begins, i say right, you got i did with the hardy digital marketing strategist of devi, the disabled american veterans and also amy braverman, associate director, digital media at cdr fund-raising group. Thank you, amy. Dan. Thank you. Thankyou, tony. This interview sponsored by networked for good, easy to use donorsearch monisha and fund-raising software for non-profits. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference. Thanks so much for being with us. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. They go beyond the numbers they’ve got. The resource is for you. Lots of different subjects at weger, cps dot com and you click resource is after you spent some time on the site. Pick up the phone. Go in. Real life talk to eat hooch doom. You know him? He was on the four hundredth show. He’s been a guest. He’s a partner there. He’s a pro. Good guy, wagner, cps dot com. Then have a chat with you now for tony’s. Take two it’s late summer and i’m wagging my finger at you reminder. I implore you. I can’t beseech, but i do implore make time for yourself over labor day weekend. You don’t just find it. I can’t find time. I don’t have time. I can’t find any time. Make the time make the time for you you have talking to you. You the person you personally make time for yourself over labor day weekend. Hopefully did doing summer sometime. But i regret to inform you that labor day is creeping up and, uh, you need to make time urine e-giving profession. You need to take as well that you can give efficiently and feel good doing it time alone is restorative it if it’s refreshing make the time there’s more on my video at twenty martignetti dot com. I’m very glad to have maria semple back. You know her for pete’s sake. She’s the prospect finder. She’s, a trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her latest book is magnify your business tips, tools and strategies for growing your business or your non-profit she’s, our doi and of dirt cheap and free. And i know she’s not gonna let us down today on that she’s at the prospect finder dot com and at maria simple. Welcome back, maria. Simple. Good to have you. Oh, it’s. So great to be back. Thanks for having me. Pleasure. Absolutely. Um, you want to talk about real estate and i was game real estate for prospect research. What’s the value here. Well, you know, it’s it’s kind of interesting because i always include real estate data in every single research profile that i do. So i almost feel like we’re doing a back to basics show here. Okay, you know what we’ve got? You know, the core pieces of information that that really should be part of every profile and real estate is is definitely one of them. And i was, you know, in preparing for today’s show. I was trying to come up with, you know, the why? Why would we want to even focus on real estate? Why is this important and so you know, i’m going to offer up a couple of reasons. You prepare one. You prepared. You wanted you wanted teo. I’m doing that. Okay. That’s. Something new. Okay, so one is from a report called the cap gem and i world wealth report, which indicates that really state actually account for eleven percent of a high net worth individuals. Total assets, right? So, i mean, when you think about the average person, right, if they own a home or they own a coop or an apartment or something, i mean that’s a significant portion of their wealth, right? Because, you know, are they going to gifted to you? Are they gonna liquidate that asset and give you the money? Probably not. However, that does lead me to think about planned e-giving, as you know, a way to think about real estate as well. Especially if you know, your prospects happened to be a childless couple. So plan giving is something that, you know you might want to think about with regard to any of their real estate holdings that they may have, whether it’s, you know their primary home or or secondary homes. Yeah, there’s. A lot you could do with real estate, certainly the methods you mentioned, if a lot of times you might hear that child or the children don’t like the beach house or the don’t like the home upstate in the woods or out in the mountains, and so that strongly suggests that it’s going to be liquidated or, you know, you might hear that those exact same sentiments and there’s a possibility that that piece of real estate could be left to you so that the person or the couple can continue living there for their lifetime and they pay all the expenses, and then you’re at their death at the death of the survivor, actually, with the survivors death, the property immediately is transferred to you because because you’re actually changing the the deed of the property that’s all called a retained life estate, she wanted to google it and find out more, but you don’t need the unity of the jargon just understand the concept, you know, if there’s a couple that is expressing dismay that the kids don’t really want the house? Uh, yeah, so that and, you know, by the same token, if you happen to come across in doing your research that a particular property of one of your donors is actually owned in a truck. You know, that kind of should send up that little signal flag to you that they have done sametz state planning. And you you want to make sure that you know you’re involving all the correct parties in the conversation. If you’re coming across the property owned in a truck, how would you find that out in your research? Well, if so, let’s say you have the name of aa prospect your your donor and you have their address and in researching their address, you find that the property is not in the the donor’s name or the donor and the spouse’s name, but rather it’s owned in a truss, actually that’s going to be? Yeah, yeah, totally it’ll be very clear because it’ll be titled that way. Ok? It’s it’s titled to the right the asset is titled to the trust. Okay, so so in your public records, that’ll do that’ll reveal itself. Yes, absolutely. So, you know you mentioned public record, so we’re very fortunate in this country in terms of doing donorsearch research on in these types of public records because all real estate across the united states is part of public records, most of it is accessible on the internet very, very occasionally, if it’s a really small little town that maybe doesn’t have a big web presence or they don’t have their tax assessor rolls, you know, available online, i might need to make a phone call, but i have to tell you that is happening less and less for me these days. Aziz, i’m able to find most of that data that i need online. Okay, you got i’m sure you have some sights, recommendations free and dirt cheap that you can share. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So, i think a really good starting place to be able to start finding, you know, ah, assessed value and taxes that people pay on their properties. Um, if you don’t know where you’re where the local tax assessor office is available online and so forth there’s one site that has a compilation state by state by state this toe where you can actually find the assessor info and it’s actually a fellow prospect researcher and she’s been maintaining this site for years. Her name is cristina. Pulawski and her sight is pulawski dot net, and i’ll spell that quickly uh, p u l a w s k i dot net and, um, if you go to that site, you’ll see a listing of all the states click through to the state of interest to you, and then you’ll easily be able. Teo, find the data that you’re looking for in the assessor and this is a free site. Yes. Pulawski dot net is free are doi n i knew are doing was not gonna let us down. Oi, end of dirt, cheap and free. Ok, what else you got? So so that that’s one that i really like is a good jumping off point for although that’ll get you teo teo, the assessor assessed values a cz well as taxes. So so let’s talk about those two pieces real quickly. You know, assessed values are very often not what the market values are. So in a minute, we’ll talk about some market values, sight. But, you know, i always like to include what is a prospect in my profile? I like to include what taxes are for the most recent year on that property, because i think it is very, very telling if somebody is able to sustain. And i did research once on dahna a couple who owned a property in in a wealthy area of new jersey but also had a house at the jersey shore. And between the two properties, tony, they were paying one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in property taxes. Okay? Yeah. That’s. A lot of money right there, right? That kind of tells you there’s some well, yeah. And then you take the take the value of those homes, multiply by nine and you’ve got ninety nine percent of their their their assets, right? Nine. Ninety percent of their wealth. Because you said for high net worth e the home is eleven per cent of the of the total assets. Yeah. Okay, very real. Look at look at all this information. We’re getting off just the that’s just from the assessed value. We don’t even know the market value of these properties yet, right? Okay, exactly way. Just have a minute or so we have a minute or so before break. So go ahead. But take take a breath after a minute or so. Hey. So the other thing i want to be able to tell you about is ways to find estimated market market value for the properties because, they said, it is very different from the assessed value on di think a site that we’re all very familiar with. Is zillow so kind of introduce that concept? If you need to go to break, and then we could talk a little bit more about zillow and different information that you could find there. Ok? The only thing i’ll put a finer point on is just to make sure that people know the assessed value that’s, the for those who may not own property. That’s, that’s, the that’s, the tax roll, value that’s, the that’s, the value of your home that is used to calculate your taxes. So they multiply that assessed value by the tax rate and that’s. How you get your your what you got to pay for taxes on that property versus market value, which i think is quite clear. Okay, let me take this break. Tell us you’ve heard enough. You’ve heard that you had to tell us moughniyah lt’s from charities that referred the companies for the credit card processing from the companies that are doing the processing and from those companies. Come processing fees and fifty percent of those fees go to those charities. You’ve heard the teles mony als that charity khun b you you can be getting the fifty percent of the fees. Go to the video. That’s. A place to start. Tony dot, m a slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to maria simple. Um okay, you were gonna hit us with market value. You got market value. Resource recommendations, love these are doi n, right? Right. So so i mentioned zillow and one of the reasons why i like zillow so much. Is that it’s a great snapshot of that property? I mean, literally, you will get a mapping. Sometimes there is a picture of the home. Uh, you’ll have information about, you know, the number of bedrooms, you know? Really, you square footage. What it left sold for three year. It was built. So you’re going to get a lot of information about that particular home, right? There, out of zillow, it mean it’s used extensively in the real estate profession, used extensively by anybody looking to buy or sell a home. So it is, you know, one of those sight that you definitely want to think about looking at, they call their estimates. It’s used extensively by me after i go to a friend’s house for dinner. And then i go home or i just go to the bathroom, and then i checked zillow, i got a guy i don’t know, i don’t know. What is this place worth? Sometimes i can’t even wait to get home. I was extensively you’re right. It is very use its used extensively. You’re absolutely right. Ok, is there another? Is there? Is there another market research resource? I mean, market value resource. Ah, well, if you are thinking about researching anybody in a city, it might be a little bit different self-funding example, in new york city, there is a site called city realty dot com, where you’ll be able, teo put in an address, uh, it’ll give you a picture of that building whether or not that building has a doorman, uh, you know, where recent sales were. Of apartments in that building uh, the year it was built, the amenities and so on and so forth. So again there you’re going to get an awful lot of information, even on those buildings where apartment, you know, maybe owned within a particular building. Yeah, cooper, condo and zillow. Zillow isn’t going to help you with with apartment properties, is it? Not much? I mean, you think the last time i was at a dinner with a friend’s apartment, whether i was successful, i don’t think i was able to find what i was looking for? No, i don’t think so. I don’t think they don’t know why i do it for all of them, so that nobody, none of my friends, they’re the only ones who’ll listen and none of them knows which which one i’m talking about. There just i do it universally. So i guess they should all just assume i’ll stop getting invitations. I don’t know one of the other. Um, yeah, but zilla doesn’t help with condos and co ops, right? I’m pretty sure. Yeah, yes. I want to look a city realty dot com that’s for new york city. Right? That’s for new york city, but suppose you’re one of the many, many listeners who does not live in the new york city metro area. What are you going to do for for condos and made it again? I would then go to, you know, look at the particular city that you’re looking for data on go to their main website as a place to start looking and start drilling down for any links that have to do with real property values. Realist, hey, you know any of those tax assessor’s. So those are some of the key words you want to start looking for in any of those drop down menus that you might find in any of the the city’s website. Ok, yeah, so you might you might have to just settle for assessed value if you can’t find a market value of cooper condo, right? But then you know what? They’ll give you the rate that you’ll be able to also, then, you know, multiply by to come up with an approximate, you know, tax tax assessment. Yeah, right. I was just saying, you know, just you might not be able to find market value for for apartments. That’s all. Yeah. You know, the best way i’ve done that then is to try and find an equivalent, uh, size department and what it’s sold for recently. Uh, look, it used to be able to find at least taels value’s. This’s why, precisely? You see you found a workaround. This is why you’re the prospect. Research contributed for now. Provoc radio. I knew there was a reason. Uh, no, i’m always reminded, but yeah. Okay, look, look for a comparable sale. Recent comparable sale. There you go. Brilliant. Brilliant. This is this is why you need to always, always, always go to that wonderful free site called google and put the property in there because right from that, don’t forget you’ll be able to get i mean, it’s just amazing. I can’t believe the precise photos and how closely i consume in on a home that i’m researching in terms of i can see number of cars in the driveway very often when i’m doing this type of research. So it’s, it’s amazing. He’ll definitely want to make sure you’re googling the address as well. So google as well as a swell a zillo. Okay for ok, ok. Um let’s see? Uh, you kind of like google maps for ah, well, before we go to google maps and broader real real estate discussion, is there anything more i don’t want to leave? You will leave your you’re good contributions unspoken. So is there anything more we need to talk about with respect to individual properties? Yeah, the only other thing i might mention is this sometimes sometimes in addition to putting ah, a property in the name of a trust, somebody might decide to really try and put some protection around that property and put it in the name of an llc. So if you’re resync researching someone like let’s, say you’re researching an entrepreneur and you know from conversations that you’ve had with them or from your board, that’s had conversations with this person that they have multiple property somewhere, and here your trying to find their name and you’re looking up their name, you know, the city that they live in a city and state, and you’re just not coming up with it. It might be that they own that property in an llc he might need to take one step first to go to the secretary of state. Database for that state. Put in the person’s name and see if it comes up connected to any l l sees, once you’ve got the name of the llc, then go back into your property database and research on the name of the llc as opposed to the individual. This is why she’s, the prospect researcher contributor. You gotta have a problem doing this work for you. If you don’t have one. Get maria. Uh, you know, brilliant. Brilliant. There you go. Very simple work around. We’re stymied. Everybody who, uh, who ran up against it, though. Okay? Yeah. Yes, holden elsie’s because, uh, i guess there’s, i guess there’s there’s a tax advantages, the business you’re doing, some kind of business passed through or something. Well, very often they’re just trying to protect the asset. So, you know, let’s say that, like i said, make-a-wish avectra nor or they own a big private company, um and they’re just trying to protect it against, you know, lawsuits and that sort of thing. Um, instead of putting it in their spouse’s name or a child’s name or whatever, still add maybe that extra layer of protection as a limited liability company. Owning the home as opposed to, you know, on individual a supposed them owning it personally and it being a personal i said it’s an asset of the llc. So if their personal assets wherever compromised for some reason thie the property in the llc would be outside that that reach. Okay, we just have to have a minute before break. So why don’t you just give us a little tease for what? How google maps could be helpful real estate wise that i bet a lot of people are not thinking about. So, you know, you and i have always often talked about pro active research versus reactive research. A lot of what we talked about it to this point in the show is on reactive research. Well, there’s a feature in google called my math that’s going to allow you to do some pro active research to really identify you know where some of your donors and prospects are based. Ah, and i’m going to give you some ideas and had to use that particular data. Yes, much more than just putting in an address. But that’s, right. Time for our last break text to give you get more revenue because they make e-giving easy for your donors. If somebody can send a text message, they can donate to you it’s simple not only simple but affordable, secure there’s taking care of these things for you, you text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine nine that’ll give you info, and you’ll also be able to claim your special listener offer npr to four, four four nine nine nine. We’ve got about six more minutes for real estate in prospect research and go ahead, marie simple reveal if this feature of google maps that we can use in our prospect research, i’ll bet a lot of people are not aware of, right? So it’s actually called my map and ah, the earl is a little bit long, so i’ll make sure that i get it to your social media team. Or maybe i’ll go ahead and upload it wherever you’d like me to do so. But it is google dot com slash math splash about flash my math. Okay, so it’s a bit long. I wish they had it a little bit shorter. You could probably find it anywhere, you know, once you first and foremost, you’ve gotta have a google account. So first things first, you gotta have that once you’ve got that, you’ll be able tio look at all the various tools that you know that that, uh, that place that you would go to once you’re logged in your google account, if you want to access to your calendar and all those other things and other features that google offers that you might be using, you’ll be able to find it there as well. So one way or another, you’ll get to it or just google google my maps, and then you’ll get to it that way. But what i loved loved loved about this, and i couldn’t believe how easy it was to use and how awesome the results were. Uh, it will allow you to upload a spread sheet into google and google wuebben map out while the addresses in that spreadsheet. So i started thinking about this and wondering, ok, well, i could see the applique ability for, uh, for a business to do this, but how can a non-profit potentially use this particular feature? And so i was thinking about a situation where you know, you’re thinking about running a special event or you’re thinking about running a cultivation event and you’re trying to figure out, where should we hold this event? You know, geographically, where does it make the most sense so that we could get the most people in attendance at the event? So you can upload a list of, say, the donors for that from that particular county or region or state or, you know, whatever it is, uh, and it will map out for you, it will put those little you know, those little markers were all so accustomed to teo jump a little pins, write it so it’ll will populate the entire map, and then you can actually hover over one of the over one of the pins and you’ll be able, teo, click on it and it’s going to give you all the information that you have tied to that particular prospect that you’ve uploaded from the spreadsheet. Yes. Oh, right, right. So all your data that you up, right, so it’s pinning the address, and then everything else you uploaded with it would would appear when you click on it or mouse over it. Or is it one of the other day when you picked up let’s. Just be careful because of that. Here’s. The caveat that you might not want to upload that personally identifiable information. The name you might not want to write. You might want to think twice about putting in. Um, they’re full name, for example in there or their email address or, you know, things like that or phone numbers. So you might be in this situation up loading less might be better just from the point of view that, you know, once you’ve uploaded this in here, this map is then saved in google under your map. This is a map you can call up at any time. Uh, and so i’m always wondering, ok, well, who else could potentially have access to this map then? You know, in the back of my mind, this is the way i’m thinking about. So i might be a little bit careful about uploading anything beyond city and state. All right, very good. Very good admonition. Oh, so? So you can use this map to see population densities within within a state. Now, did you see any maximum number of rose that you can? You can, including your excel spreadsheet. I mean, could it be ten thousand? Can you map the whole country? I didn’t, you know, i didn’t try anything with a huge spreadsheet. I sampled it with a much smaller one, but i you know, i have tto dig a little deeper, and in google’s, they do have a pretty good help section about how to use this so they might address that there. Um, but i’m not sure if they’re gonna limit you on the size of this. Okay, that’s a great question, but also, if you are, if you’re planning a visit somewhere, you know you’re doing your well. This is summer, so you’re not doing your winter visit to florida, but whenever you have to prepare for your winter visit for florida, so as you’re doing that what counties should be visit well, let’s, upload, let’s upload on a simple spreadsheet all our florida addresses query by state nfl put it in a spreadsheet exported to a spreadsheet. Upload that to google maps and you’ll see the population densities throughout florida and you’ll know which counties in town’s teo host in and then then you could then go for your personal visits. You could map your way through through the state dry, you know, find the best route, right? Doesn’t help you with routes. Yes, like so then you khun route from one visit one of your donors to the next to the next. And get get yourself a nice, efficient routes that you can maximize your time. You know, while you’re visiting florida so that you can visit, say, you know, five donors in a day is opposed to maybe you were thinking you could only get two. Well, wouldn’t it be great if he could get four or five people in that one day? Right? Google will will route you through them. Love it, love it. Okay, wait. We just have ah, minute left before we have to wrap it up. Maria simple. What would you like to leave our listeners with so two more deuces real quick. One is if you have a lot of you run five k’s and walk and things like that and you’re not. And some of these people may not be already tied into your organization to the level that you’d like them tied in beyond their participation. So why not again? Matthau out where all of these folks, you’ve got their registration data. They’ve registered for your race again. Tie in to google maps, find out where these folks are all coming from, to participate in your five k and see how you can have some further engagement with them. Another, you know, i thought about was we have to leave it. There dahna next next time. Maria simple she’s, the prospect finder, she’s at the prospect finder, dot com, and at marie, a simple thank you so much, maria, you’re welcome, good talking to you. Next week, we’re live with a studio audience from the foundation center. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant, well, your c p a is guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com. Why tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream? Tony dahna slash tony. Tell us on by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine a. Creative producers. Claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music is by scott stein. You’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Schnoll you’re listening to the talking alternative network oppcoll waiting to get a drink. Nothing. Cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in something potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? Then you’re in for a treat. This is michael dulled, your host on talking alternative dot com. I’ve been professionally writing comic books, screenplays and music articles from fifteen years. 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Nonprofit Radio, January 20, 2012: Revel In Real Estate & Board Oversight Basics

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Sponsored by GE Grace corporate real estate services.

Listen live or archive:

My Guests:

Interviewing Chase Magnuson and Allen Thomas
Chase Magnuson and Allen Thomas: Revel In Real Estate

Chase Magnuson of George Washington University and Allen Thomas from The American College have small and mid-size nonprofits in mind as they describe how to identify prospects for real estate gifts; also how to cultivate, solicit and negotiate these gifts. What is the due diligence that’s required to keep your charity safe from a bad gift?


Gene Takagi
Gene Takagi: Board Oversight Basics

Our regular legal contributor Gene Takagi, from the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group, unlocks the vagueness around “board oversight.” This is part one. We’ll continue the discussion in February.


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If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.

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Here is the link to the podcast: 075: Revel In Real Estate & Board Oversight Basics

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent it’s me, your aptly named host for january twentieth, two thousand twelve. I hope you were with me last week when we had podcasting primer with john federico principle of the new rules talk about what podcasting is and how you get started. Are you doing video or audio? Only what’s your content and how do you distribute your podcasts? Also with me was scott koegler, our regular technology contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news, and he gave us his thoughts on twitter organization pages. Should you get in? How do you get in this week? Revel in real estate chase magnuson of george washington university and alan thomas from the american college have small and midsize non-profits in mind, as they describe howto identify prospects for real estate gif ts how to cultivate, solicit and negotiate thes gif ts and what is the due diligence that’s required to keep your charity safe from a bad gift? This is a recording from the national conference on philanthropic planning and board oversight basics. Jean takagi are regular legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law firm in san francisco, defines oversight and explains how it should be executed to protect your charity and your board members. This is the first part of our conversation, which is going to continue in february between the guests on tony’s take to my blogger this week. You don’t need the fancy stuff for your plant. E-giving the most sophisticated gift’s really are not necessary to have a very successful and suitable plan giving program, and i’ll talk about that. We’re live tweeting the show as we do every week. Use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation on twitter. This show is supported by g grace corporate real estate services. I am grateful for their support. Thank you right now, we take a break, and when we returned, we ll talk about reveling in real estate and stay with me. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Oppcoll hey, are you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back, i hope you’re ready to revel in real estate. Here is my interview with chase magnuson and alan thomas from the national conference on philanthropic planning. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the national conference on philanthropic planning. Where on the riverwalk in san antonio, texas. The topic right now is except real estate gif ts exclamation mark on my guests are chase magnuson and alan thomas chases director of gift planning for real estate at the george washington university. And alan thomas is vice president of advancement for the american college in bryn mawr, pennsylvania. Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Nice to be here with you. A pleasure to have both of you. You have an exclamation mark after except real estate gift chase why’s that why’s that so important? Well, it’s important because it’s one of the largest equity opportunities for both the donors to become philanthropist as well as the charities to benefit from they’re gifts of real estate. And historically, charities have been either rejecting or not accepting real estate gifts. And i think alan and irp bringing some pretty good reasons why organisations oughta consider real estate gifts in addition. With some wonderful solutions. I i think accepting real estate gifts is a wonderful topic name. But i would make it even more emphatic and just say, take real estate. Any kind of okay? What’s the reluctance been chase. Why have we seen that? The expertise of the organization’s doesn’t lend itself well to the real estate industry? Ah, they’re two separate disciplines, and they haven’t put together teams of experts to help solve problems. And there is a great fear love liability that comes with the ownership of real estate. And i think some of the some of the issues that alan and i are going to be covering today would help solve those problems. Reduce the risk is there is risk, right? And what? We can minimize the right. Yes, indeed we can. Okay. Um, ellen let’s. Turn to you and think about how we start to talk two donors. How do we start to cultivate them around thinking about a real estate gift? Tony, great question. We we need to encourage the charities, too, reach out to the real estate community in order to promote real estate, real estate professionals, real estate attorneys would absolutely real estate. Brokers, attorneys and financial advisors who represent potential donors as well. And we need to get this message out that charities are willing to accept real estate and that there are advantages too, their donors too, to make these gifts to charities. And there are vory wonderful mechanisms that will promote this and make this viable for both the donor and the charity. Okay, what it’s actually, the charities have been standing in the door rejecting gifts that donors very generously have come to the table with because the charity’s air not set up to handle it. Over eighty percent of all gifts from donors offered to charities are rejected out of hand. Real estate. Yes, and the and the best. We can calculate the amount of real estate that’s rejected every years between sixteen and twenty billion dollars. That could be coming to charities at least some a portion of that, if the charities would go to the trouble of putting together teams of experts to help them manage the process. So it is such a wonderfully ah wonderful opportunity. Foran untapped market to really spur on the charities in a very difficult time in fund-raising. All right, so let’s, pursue that. What? What does the charity need to have in place? Chase they need to have policy, some procedures internally. They need to have a committee of people who make decisions. The plan giving officer who is the front line agent for the charities have to have a working knowledge of the types of real estate gifts and how they can be used. And here at this conference, i would venture to say ninety five to ninety eight percent of all the plan giving officers understand the technical side of it. But they need they need residential real estate agents for for personal residents. They need commercial brokers for investment properties. Farm and ranch brokers who specialize in another area and industrial brokers for corporate gifts of surplus rules state. Yet really, it really covers a gamma of about twenty six real estate specialties, and no one person can have all of that kind of expertise by themselves. So this may not be appropriate than for the smallest, some of the smaller or smallest charities. Oh, on the contrary, they ought to team up with a larger, better position charity to share in the gift. Okay, let’s talk. About that, then. So what can the small and midsize shops do that that don’t have the the board or the wherewithal? Teo hyre this expertise what in the small tony do, tony, the small charity can partner with a larger charity, and that has the expertise and has those contacts and the team sort of driven approach to accepting real estate, and they can partner and split the proceeds between when it when a property is sold? Okay, so there are ways of partnering and and helping those smaller charities our message today to this, this universe of folks here at the plant giving conference is to help them understand that there are mechanisms and ways in which to accept real estate that will insulate them from the risk that maybe inherent, and they’re all course skeptical about the real estate market today, and we need to assure them that there are ways of underwriting acceptance of gifts that should be acceptable to their boards and make them comfortable, right? And we’ll have time to get to some of those go ahead. Chase looks like it was something i was going to say that the small charities by teaming up with a larger charity don’t expose themselves to cost of managing a process or hiring new people, and it can move very, very smoothly through the process. But what what professionals like alain bring to the table is they’ve actually closed major real estate gifts. What we here at these conferences, frankly, are quite often just theories on how it’s going to be done. So for four practitioners who have closed multiple transactions on all kinds of properties, you’re looking at one of somebody that’s very unique and chase the two of us wear all admiring each other well, no, i admire your strength, no, but it but it needs to be it needs to be heard out there somebody’s actually doing it rather than just theory on a piece of it can be done well, and your title is director of gift planning for real estate. So i imagine you’re working. I mean, we’re not just sitting back, you’re earning your keep. I’d like to get a copy of that to washington. I’ll get a copy of this for my university, so they didn’t have anything to do with getting dinged. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. E-giving cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping huntress people be better business people. Buy-in hi, this is psychic medium. Betsy cohen, host of the show. The power of intuition. Join me at talking alternative that come mondays at eleven a. M call in for a free psychic reading learned how to tune into your intuition to feel better and to create your optimum life. I’m here to guide you and to assist you in creating life that you deserve. Listen. Every monday at eleven a, m on talking alternative dot com. Are you feeling overwhelmed and the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed hi and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m kate piela, executive director of dance, new amsterdam. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Dahna durney chase earns his keep exclamation Mark exclamation mark 3 of us, okay, now, but i want to say i want to pursue this a lot more so a small charity someone comes to them with the idea of a real estate gift, wouldn’t that charity be reluctant to go to another another charity and partner for fear of losing the donor relationship? Alan? Well, the important thing is that that small charity needs to still be the primary contact with that donor, and they need to be assured that they will be in the having that principal dialogue bringing the larger charity in as as an adviser and able to help guide the process. Chase and i talk about process because you need an infrastructure buy-in place and a process in order to be able to accept real estate gifts if you don’t have that infrastructure and process you’re going to be, i’m flailing away and and in all likelihood, probably not accepting real estate gifts when they’ve always falling into the eighty percent of jordan chase mention exactly, i would go in another direction for the small charity that’s looking at a million dollar gift, and they’re not. Capable of handling that, how dangerous does it have to be for them to lose their donor if the if the property is handled with a sister corporation and they get five hundred thousand dollars of the gift they get xero or they get five hundred thousand dollars, that doesn’t seem to be to be a very hard business decision for the small charity and whoever they’re teaming up with they’ve already vetted them, and they know who they’re dealing with. We all live in a very small community known as the non-profit world, and you simply cannot afford to to go against what you’ve told another charity you’ll dio and we really go out and say to the small charity, we’re not going to invade your relationship with your donor. This is a one off transaction that we might help with. Have you pardoned partnered at george washington with small charities? Not yet, but i’ve done it in my prior career, and we’re establishing ourselves to do exactly that. Okay, so are you reaching out to the non-profit community and some of the earlier they’re here well across the kind of nationally, okay? Yeah, and i think alan would do the same, and that will be part of our message today as well. Yes, you’re coming on dso, and it need not be in your in your respective cities, the part of the partner charity. No, there are our efforts or national in scope, and so isn’t chases. We, we will look at real estate, gets all over. The united states were actually intergalactic. With a word like intergalactic, you don’t need an exclamation. Absolutely no way that carries today. No fluctuation required the word that word is resounding in its own period. Even a semi colon that’s. Okay over does. Okay, no. But i think it’s important for the audience of this show is small and midsize. Non-profits i think it’s important for them to know that that both of your institutions are interested in talking to small or shops that that maybe offered a real estate gift and don’t have the wherewithal to manage it themselves. Absolutely, i would. I would liketo characterize us as mentors. Once we teach the smaller charity how to do it. Well, step away, and they never have to share again. Okay, but they can also use community foundations and other charities in their community that the donor might want to have an interest in rather than coming to a george washington university. All right, um, alan, you talked a little about cultivation. You starting to cultivate the gifts through the advisors. But i really should have started with identifying let’s. Let’s, uh, let’s. Identify the right donors to be proactively recommending or promoting the idea of real estate gifts how do we i d defy the right group toe promote these ideas too well in any kind of plan giving situation, the best donor that you’re going to have for your charity is one who has been involved in your charity in the past, who has a strong affinity to your mission and and has been a past giver. So first of all, you look at somebody who is invested in your charity already and would be the most likely prospect for a planned gift of any kind. And then you would want teo sort of identify those who in particular might have real estate assets above and beyond the average kind of donor and who might be a very good prospect. So that takes time to cultivate your plan giving donors and understand who those best ones are for real estate gifts and what type of real estate might they need to have? I mean, suppose they just have primary home could could could the type of donor that you described be a candidate for the type of gifts we’re talking about with just a primary home? Yes, tony, the very first example we will. Given our presentation today is called a retained life estate, and that is a gift where a donor gives they’re residents could be a primary residence or a vacation home or a ranch that they give it to a charity, and they retain a life estate to remain there through the balance of their lives. On tony martignetti non-profit radio, we have jargon jail, i’m working plan giving. I know what you mean, but let’s talk about life. Is that what i want to keep you out of jargon? Jail? Okay, otherwise i’ll throw you in. Okay? Pinstripe soup in all doesn’t matter, right? And you don’t get what is what is a life of state that life donor is retaining a life of state is when you reserve the right to stay in that property through the duration of your lifetime, and it could be one person or or joint people could be more than one. So if you have a husband and wife who are seventy five, seventy six six and they love your charity, they want to give their primary home to you, and they want to stay in that property for the balance of their lives. They transfer the deed to your charity and and reserve this life tenancy to remain in that property for the rest of their lives. So then when one of them in the first of them dies, the survivor continues to live there. Yes. And then at the survivors death? What? What happens to the property then? The charity has complete control over it. Okay? Because it is a new deed. Is that right? The deed is transferred to the charity when the retain life estate is created. Right? That’s what i meant at its creation. We’re we’re writing a new deed. Yes. Where the donor keeps the life residents like state on dh could be for more than one life. And then, at their death transferred to the check. Yes. And there there are two other benefits. Should the donors decide they want to move out of the home into a assistant living, they can rent the property and get the rental income. Or they can sell the balance of their life. A state to the charity for a lump sum. So it’s, sort of like a spic it for additional income for the donor, it’s. Wonderfully flexible it is. Wonderfully flexible, yes, i’d like to come. I’d like to come in a different direction, alice, giving you the allens, giving you the traditional explanation on how you manage and cultivate, but we’re also problem solvers. We often get donors that come to us that say we’re trier dh of managing our property, we need income, we could use some tax shoulder here’s our property, give us the alternatives so we’re like we’re really weaving a mosaic on different opportunities for lifetime income tax shoulder and to solve the property management issue, so we’re problem solvers at the same time we’re cultivating the relationship. Excellent, wonderful it’s a wonderful role to play it is the retained life estate, so we’ve been using the example singularly would baizman saying at the death of the donors don’t or donorsearch nto the remainder is to the charity, but this can be done for multiple charities then is that right? Yes. Ok. And how? How would the charity’s then work together? When the property is transferred to them? At the death of the survivor, there would be a primary charity that would take title to the property with the responsibilities to make sure it’s maintained that it’s insured and that sort of thing. And then an interlocking agreement with the donors and the other charities on how the eventual proceeds will be divided. Okay, very simple. It’s all worked out during while the donors are living. So they know how the proceeds will be distributed across the charity. Yes. And it becomes very much like a landlord tenant kind of situation because your donors remain there living in the property. Caring for it is they have been so it’s, like a landlord tenant situation and alan who’s responsible for the expenses. While the donors are living there, we typically look to have the donor take care of the expenses, the maintenance, the real estate taxes, the insurance. And so that the charity doesn’t have to make those expenditures. Okay, way. Make site inspections because we are the stewarts for the organizations that are getting the proceeds to make sure our asset is well taken care of. So how often is there a site visit? At least annual? Yes. Annually. Okay. And what if the donor chase would like to make improvements or renovations or to the property? Do they need to get the permission? Of the charities how does that work? Yes, that’s that is in the original contract for donation because additions to properties in the eye of the beholder may change the value. Heard it or do something else because uncle fred came in and decided to put a carport in but he’s, not a contractor. And when you go look at it, the carp ports on the wrong property. And here comes the litigation. Ok, so there does that we have, right? Yeah. Okay. All right. So following our course, we’re talking about identifying the right donors and cultivating chase let’s continue with how do you open this conversation with people who you think are good prospects for ah, retained life of state we were talking about? Well, i think that there’s some qualifiers such is their age. You you wouldn’t open this conversation without having several donorsearch meetings the you asked the question, what are you trying to accomplish and it’s from that point that we move forward, we can eliminate many alternatives in the gifting program of real estate because we’ve heard the donors are going in a different direction if if things like we want to live out our lives here in comfort that is the first kickoff to say, look, you could get some tax deduction, you could become your legacy can be turned into a current philanthropic recognized gift, and you can stay here and we’ll help you do that. That’s an easy conversation. You often meet the donors at their home you can look around you known awful lot about about your diet, your donor base. So i don’t. Alan, do you have if allen’s probably got a key question when he comes in the door, where’s the deal now you set him up now he better have one because you’ve set him up for god gave him time, anyone? Now, if you’d like to add more to opening that conversation, i would like to add a new additional part of the conversation, and that is that this is a holistic discussion that goes way beyond just the real estate. You need to know your donors in this situation because, for instance, you don’t want to take a retained life estate if that’s their single asset or predominantly their asset, and they don’t have any other income or assets in order to meet their future. Living living needs their medical needs, and you don’t want to find yourself in a situation where they need that the of the worth of that real estate in order to cover their future needs so that that that’s an additional part of the discussion which goes beyond just the real estate. So we is planned giving people need to have a complete, broader dahna perspective on what that donors situation is it’s very important. It’s all about the donors donor-centric donor-centric we’ve been saying about you don’t okay, all right, so then alan let’s continue. We opened the conversation, the person is willing to hear a little more do we start to bring in their advisors, their family? What? What sort of the next step? Maybe the second or third meeting about this topic, we absolutely need to bring in their advisers, and we highly recommend bring in family. Ah, the last thing you want is family to be surprised when when mom and dad have all of a sudden announced to them g i gave the homestead teo x y z charity, and we’re going to stay here for the rest of our lives. But it’s gone, so you don’t want direct, close family to be surprised in those situations, so you want the adviser of the family and we need to bring in our expertise with ah ah appraisers and conduct our due diligence to make sure that the property is valued correctly and that there aren’t any unsuspected sort of liabilities associated with it. Okay, i’m hoping we have a minute or so to get into some what some of that due diligence is, but chase, let me ask you who might some of these experts or should sorry donors advisers be that we’re asking the donors to bring into the conversation. In addition to their own family attorney, they ought to be talking to a specialist and will’s in the states. They ought to be talking to a c p a that we work closely with that professional, the plan e-giving a person should be eventually brought in on a three or four way conversation and then, depending on the type of property, the plane giving officer would reach out to a real estate specialist on on that particular kind of property to get an evaluation just a range of values, because some donors think their properties worth a million, and it may only be worth not to say only, but it could be where six hundred thousand so expectations have to be matched and that’s what alan was talking about, this is a process you don’t do it one setting, you work through it and that sort of thing. So everybody needs to be on at least the same page on what is the value of the asset we’re going to talk about today. And how do you want to use that? And do you want to share that between our organisation and others that you have historically given money to? And you could do that all in one package, and we’re here to help, okay? We have just about a minute left, gentlemen, alan let’s, talk a little about the due diligence. What? What does that do? The charity or charities working together? I need to do to make sure that this is an appropriate gift for them to accept. Chase and i have forms that we’ve actually developed form for the donor to answer three or four pages of questions, and then we have our own donor-centric list for ensuring that we’ve covered all the issues that zoning issues, title issues, environmental issues having an environmental phase one study done these are all things that need to be conducted in order to know that you’re getting a property that you’re comfortable with and you know it was free of liability and is going to be worth what you’re representing to your charity. The last thing you want to do is except a piece of real estate that later your board finds out, has evaluation drastically different than what you’ve represented and, oh, by the way, there’s some sort of environmental issue related there as well, so that part of the due diligence and that brings us really full circle in terms of minimizing the risk, there are potential risks, but we can work buy-in partner with other charities to minimize those risks we’ve been talking about except real estate gifts. Exclamation mark with chase magnuson, director of gift planning for real estate at the george washington university, and alan thomas, vice president of advancement at the american college bryn mawr, pennsylvania german one thank you very much, tony, thank you so much for this pleasure to be here. Enjoyed it as well. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the national conference on philanthropic planning in san antonio, texas. As you heard my interview from that conference, we’ll take a break when we return. It’s, tony’s, take two, and then gene takagi will be with me, and we’ll be talking about board oversight. Stay with me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed hi and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com metoo hello and welcome back. It’s, time for tony’s take two at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour. My block this week is you don’t need the fancy stuff for your plans. E-giving for small and midsize charities, having just a bequest marketing program is a perfectly respectable planned giving program. You see a lot of talk about mega gif ts and sophisticated and creative and fancy gift, and those certainly exists in all kind of trust arrangements and things that are even less typical than trust, but you don’t need them necessarily any program, irrespective of what the size of the institution is when they start playing e-giving always starts with requests because it is the most popular type of plan gift easy for charities toe promote its easy for donors to understand s o across all programs, bequests are the place to start, and they’re the most popular type of plan gift you’d expect about three quarters of of all your gift in any size program to be bequest. Um, because everybody needs a will and everybody understands what a will is and how to use it for charity. Purpose is very simple. Follow on from that, but for a lot of charities, that’s the place not only to start but also just to end because they don’t have the expertise to be more sophisticated with their donors in terms of types of terms, in terms of types of gifts, or they don’t have the money to hire the expertise necessarily. So the bottom line is you don’t have to go fancy and exotic if you’re if you’re smaller, charity think just about requests, and that is a very respectable planned e-giving program and that’s what the block is about you’ll find it at m p g a d v dot com the post is called you don’t need the fancy stuff for your plant e-giving that is tony’s take two for friday, january twentieth, the third show of two thousand twelve jean takagi is with me now jean is principal of neo, the neat non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He also edits the popular non-profit law blawg, which you’ll find at non-profit law blawg dot com and you can follow him on twitter at g tak gt a k jean takagi, welcome back, great to be here durney hope your two thousand twelve great. Thank you. Happy new year s are our first discussion of the new year and we’re talking about the basics of board oversight. Why is board oversight even an issue so critical in these times? Tony, where non-profit organizations are really working in an environment of fewer resource, is greater competition and it’s up to the board to not only show leadership but teo exercise oversight. Teo give confidence to the public and two donors that the organization is running well, that they’re making effective and efficient use of the reason lorts teo accomplish and further their mission on dh what do we mean by oversight? What does it include, but really means about on? For most boards of directors, it means about looking over the finances of the organization, looking over the programs of the organization, looking at legal compliance and looking at the executive director’s performance. So all of those would constitute some levels of oversight to make sure that the organization is running the way it’s supposed to run. Okay. And what if the board, um, either collectively or individually, however it’s best to describe it? Um, isn’t doing proper oversight that’s where organizations could get in trouble, okay, that with some organizations, especially with the media and with the internet and public scrutiny and forms nine ninety, which are the annual information returns that charities have to file being available public to the public. Just fun. Guidestar dot com it’s, easy to see what’s going on financially programmatically it’s, easy for organizations to be scrutinized and for boards to be held accountable for what’s going on in an organization and while legal liability for boardmember is really, really remote in the charitable sectors. It can’t happen a time, but maybe more importantly, an organization, and simply get devastated by poor governance way seen examples of this with you, can i just before you go into the example, can i just remind you speak a little bit louder? Yeah, much better, thank you. Great. So we’ve seen examples of organizations that can get into trouble, and we might discuss this a little further later on. But the second mile is just one organization. There was a central asia institute that was associated with greg mortensen, who wrote the three cups of tea that was also in the news. Lately they’re a bunch of organizations over the last five or six years that have been in the news for poor governance on and ultimately that could really hurt the donors, the donation based on that could hurt the programs and the beneficiaries of these non-profit and the second mile that you referred to that was that penn state scandal crisis and on we will have some time to talk about some of the examples. What about? I mean, i hear the phrase fiduciary duty a lot, you know? But what, what, what? What are the duties that are fiduciary that board members have to the charity great? And i’ll try not to step into jargon, joey, i’ll get you don’t worry about is here. Yeah, but they’re really three separate legal duties that a board of directors or each director has that serves on the board of directors first is the duty of care, and that generally means that a director must act in a reasonable and in form manner under the given circumstances. So if they’re acting like a reasonable average person would who’s in charge of an organization, then they’re meeting their duty of care. You started you starting to fade a little bit, you have to speak a little louder part of that part of meeting the duty of care is just acting as a reasonable person would in a like position under similar circumstances, so it a person would review financials oven organization that they’re in charge of that would be considered reasonable, and all directors should be reviewing the financials. They should also be reviewing whether their programs are effectively and efficiently meeting their missions or furthering their missions. So having some sort of measurement tool or developing it, or on dh, that could be very challenging at times, but taking steps towards that that’s all reasonable ticks back from the fiduciary or director so that’s part of the duty of care, another legal duty is the duty of loyalty and that’s really acting in good faith and in the best interests of the organization, even ahead of their own interests. So when you’re in charge of an organization that the director on the board, you’ve gotta act in good faith and in the best interest of the organization, if an opportunity comes up, that would benefit you and to the detriment of the organization that’s an opportunity that you shouldn’t take. If it was produced you in in the contacts of being a director of the organization, that sounds like it flows over into conflict of interest policies exactly right? Okay? And every organization should have a conflict of interest policy, okay? We’ll get to the different policies. I know there are a lot of them, but that’s, this is interesting. Flushing out the fiduciary duties. Go ahead. I’m sorry. The duty of loyalty. Is there anything else there? Be good faith and best interest? Sure, and and it really is about managing conflicts of interest doesn’t mean that organization couldn’t take advantage of a director who’s going to provide a below cost lise to the organisation, for example, but that it would have to be done with disinterested members of the board, the board, the board director of directors or the members of the board that don’t have a financial interest in that least, teo clearly show that, yes, it is below market or no better than fair market value in favor of the other director who’s interested in that transaction. It also has to do with things like keeping things confidential if you learn of things of the director. Of the organization, including employee salaries that you’re not really supposed to share with the general public. Well, as a director, you have a duty of loyalty to keep that information confidential. The third d d that i mentioned with the duty of obedience, some face it within within the context of the duty of karen duty of loyalty, but the duty of obedience to be treated as a separate duty, you know, don’t you want to be a priest, teach the duty of obedience, right? This is not a valid, just a duty. Maybe we get it from the religious contacts, but it really has to do with obeying what the law says you have to do and obeying what your internal laws say you have to do and that maybe the provisions of your by-laws for example, and their policies that we we can talk about it means that you’re going to comply with all of those things, and you’re gonna do that reasonably. Okay, so that’s interesting internal as well as external laws correct all of the internal laws you set for yourself. You can’t just ignore that you can’t let your by-laws sit on the shelf. Without making sure that you understand and know them, then how to comply with them. Okay, now you said that there are obligations around finance programs, legal compliance and overseeing the work of the executive director or president, you know, whoever that is, whatever that title is, but how does a director who comes, how do they have all this expertise? I mean, how can they do all this? Yeah, very difficult questions. So some of the directors that that joined the board may not have the expertise. So part of what you need to do in recruitment if you’re on an existing board, is to try to get different board members who khun bring in such expertise so that they can share it with other board members. The other thing to do is to bring in consultants to help out. So if you don’t have that expertise on the board and you’re not able to recruit for it right away bringing and consultant and give lessons two to your board have been get presentations, make information available to them, and i think this is a the role of an executive director’s job as well, to make sure that their board has sufficient educational materials so that they’re able to properly support that executive director and meet their fiduciary duties. Maybe know and understand. What’s expected of you. It could really be a lot of fun. And you can find out how to really leverage your authority to help that organization do even better work. Okay, so let me see if i understand then then those three duties the duty of care and loyalty and obedience. Those air individual. But then the financial program, legal compliance and overseeing the executive director work those air collective of the board. Or is that not right? Yeah, i think that’s right. So that the three duties that we talked about right applied to each individual originally. Right? Right. Right. But the oversight process, the board, the board members all have their individual duties. But collectively is how they hold power. Directors individually, actually have no power, tony, unless they’re delegated with power by the board. So inherently they have no power individually. They only have it collectively and collectively, it’s how they have to exercise. That oversignt okay. Now we have just about a minute before the break. There’s. A lot more detail. To cover, but just in that minute or so. What if, individually a director is not meeting the one or or any of those duitz three duties? What, individually, khun b. The liability. Well, typically, liability is not going to be imposed unless it’s the worst circumstances. So unless there’s some sort of embezzlement going god or payroll taxes are not being paid to the irs that’s always a very bad thing, directors aren’t usually going to be held liable for for for little things. But if the director is not been paying any attention, not attending meetings, not reviewing financials, not participating in the decisions that the board is expected to make, they can get themselves in trouble, and part of that may be with the media, and they could be blasted by the media criticized that could do particular damage to individuals beyond what the legal liabilities are something for every director to be careful of. We’re talking about board oversight basics very interesting, very important for the protection of your charity and protection of your board members and chair and the board members protecting the charity and themselves with jean takagi are regular legal contributor, and we’re going to take a break and then we’ll return with more board oversight basic, so i hope you stay with us talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m carol ward from the body mind wellness program. Listen to my show for ideas and information to help you live a healthier life in body, mind and spirit. You hear from terrific guests who are experts in the areas of health, wellness and creativity. So join me every thursday at eleven a, m eastern standard time on talking alternative dot com professionals serving community. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. Be more effective, be happier. And make more money. Improving communications. That’s the talking all calm. If you have big ideas and an average budget tune, tony martignetti non-profit radio we dio i’m jonah helper, nari team in co founders of next-gen charity. Welcome back on with jean takagi. Jean takagi is with me and we’re talking about board oversight basics. You had said gene, that the the directors can khun delegate this toe to consultants or maybe i don’t know other experts, but they have to exercise their duties in hiring that the right consultant, right? That’s that’s, right. Chinese directors khun delegate all sorts of tasks out. So they made delegate learning cast. So, uh, to teo, specific individuals, the most common individuals directors are going to delegate things to they’re going to delegate management to their executive into their staff. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, yeah, but they must do so with reasonable karen oversight. So the selection of their executive on key staff members is going to be an appropriate thing for directors that concentrate on ok. Interesting. So you’re including delegation of the day to day management from the board to the to the all the all the employees to the executive director who then hires all the employees. Okay, absolutely. For organizations that have the benefit of employees. That’s one of the most important tasks of the directors to delegate management but also exercise proper oversight over that process? Yes. And that’s, the oversight overseeing network, i guess another common example of delegation that i see is the audit function ordered ng that’s, right, tony so for many organizations, having an independent audit is really critical for directors, especially those who may not have a great understanding of howto read financial statements in great detail. All of them should have a basic understanding of that in order to meet their fiduciary duties again of providing oversight over the finances but an audit and really both educate the board and give them some comfort that they’re adequately protecting the organization’s assets if they get a clean audit. All right, so we talked a good amount there about so far about the financial side, but there’s also the programmatic side of the boards oversight, and i think that gets short shrift now, let’s not do that way. Don’t make that mistake. Yeah, and i think you know, non-profit organizations, charitable organizations don’t exist. Ultimately, for a bottom line, they exist to further their charitable mission on dh there’s, no sort of measurement or context or accountability for how well there they’re actually furthering their mission. And i think the boards are not doing their job effectively. That tough part about this is programmatic measurement of successes, and things are really difficult to do in the context of many non-profits i think that’s been ongoing issue, and i think you’ve had experts on your show before have been talking about how to how to measure program results in how to be more effective and efficient, but it’s a difficult task still one board have to embrace and try to go after rather than run away? No, most recently, i think the guest that comes to mind is ken berger is the ceo of charity navigator, talking about encouraging charities to measure impact so that that’s that’s what we’re talking about. Okay, so yeah, so we don’t want to give way don’t make the mistake of short shrift ing programmatic because you’re right, that is the reason they exist. It’s it’s you’re right, it’s not financial let’s. See what? What are you mentioned? A couple of the examples that have come out in the news lately. What what? What can we learn from these? Well, let’s focus on the most recent huge scandal that hit the jerry sandusky penn state, the second mile candle that came out and justin in real brief context on jerry sandusky was a former assistant football coach with penn state university, and he also was a founder of the second mile, which was a charity that was developed toe help kids. Unfortunately, sandusky was indicted in november, following good three year investigation into reported sexual assault of young boys over a period of about fifteen years while he was associated with both the second mile end state university. So really, uh, very troublesome and now the second mile, that charity is struggling to remain in existence right now, and they’re trying to figure out what they need to do but lots of lessons to be learned, but that ultimately we we don’t know how, you know the courts are going to try sandusky, whether he’ll be found guilty or innocent on those charges, but there are enormous amounts of westerns to be learned from that from mom for non-profit okay, well, we this is why we’re going to break the subject into two, two segments, so you’re going to be back in february weii just have about ninety seconds or so left. What do you want? To share in just that time with with the audience about what we can learn from the that second mile. Sure, i think you big comments tio make at first, okay, no free passes for the founders of the organization or for big donors or other big shots of the organization, they should be expected to do the job that they’ve been in task to do so their director on the board, they should be falling while the policies that every director has to follow. So, uh, if they’re a big donor, they don’t get special privileges to work with the organization’s programs unless it passed the test that that allow persons that are qualified to do those programs. Another lesson. If you are criticized and you’re you’re subjected to allegations of wrongdoing, i think the first thing you have to do is remember that the criticisms addressing those criticisms is more than just pr. You have to find out if there’s substantive and if there’s an investigation, that would be reasonable. You should order an investigation on dh that’s part of that oversight that we’ve been talking about. You get help when necessary. That’s really important, jean, we have to stop there, but you are going to be back to talk about this exact topic. We’re going to continue it. Jean takagi is principal of the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco and yet it’s the block, which you’ll find at non-profit law blawg dot com jean, thanks very much for being on again. Great thanks pleasure. We’ll talk in a few weeks, okay? My thanks also to chase magnuson and alan thomas and the organizers of the national conference on philanthropic planning. Next week e-giving forward and back rob mitchell, ceo of atlas forgiving, will be my guest to talk about two thousand eleven’s e-giving by sector source and state, and we’ll also look ahead to predictions for this year. Keep up with what’s coming up, go to the go to the facebook page and sign up for insider email alerts on that page. If you like the show, please like the page, be grateful to have your support there as a fan. Listen, live our archive. You’ve been listening live. You can listen archive to from itunes non-profit radio dot net will take you to our itunes paige and you can listen on the device. Of your choice the time of your preference on twitter you can follow me you can follow the show’s hashtag non-profit radio the show is sponsored by g grace and company if you’re worried about the rising costs of rents for your organization or need to capitalize on real estate, you’re non-profit owns gee grayson company provides you and you’re bored with analysis, so real estate decisions are made with transparency and thoroughness. George grace has been advising non-profits on their real estate decisions for over twenty five years. You’ll find them at g grace dot com or eight eight eight seven four seven two two three, seven. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer and he’s also the owner of talking alternative broadcasting social shows. 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Nonprofit Radio for September 16, 2011: Learning Office Lease Lessons

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

You can subscribe on iTunes and listen anytime, anyplace on the device of your choice.

Tony’s Guests:

George Grace

George Grace: First, we talk through the walk through. How do you find the best space and use different spaces to strategically head into your lease negotiations? Our expert is George Grace, president of G.E. Grace & Company, who has done this work for dozens of nonprofits.



Robert Smith

Robert Smith & Kate Peila: Then, what lease terms do you need to be careful about and what are the negotiating points? Lease expert Robert J. Smith, Esq. and Kate Peila, executive director of Dance New Amsterdam, talk through DNA’s less-than-desirable lease to bring out lessons to help you get the best lease next time.


Here is a link to the podcast: 059: Learning Office Lease Lessons

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Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio, the aptly named host. We’re always talking here about big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I very much hope that you were with me last week when we had the nine eleven effect, christine cronin, president of and white charities dot or ge was with me to discuss the first online giving responses to the attacks and what’s changed as a result, and lessons learned from then also i had david campbell, professor of public administration of binghamton university. He also had firsthand experience on nine eleven from his work at community service society in new york city. We talked with david about his opinion piece in the chronicle of philanthropy. The lessons of nine eleven philanthropy a decade later this week, we’re learning office lease lessons first we’re going to walk through the no, i blew it first we’re going to talk through the walk through how do you find the best space and use different spaces to strategically head into your lease? Negotiations are expert is george grace, president of ghee grayson company, who has done exactly this type of work for dozens of non-profits then what least terms? Do you need to be careful about and what are the negotiating points? Attorney robert j smith and kate piela, executive director of dance new amsterdam, are going to talk through the dance companies less than desirable lease to bring out some lessons to help you get the best lease next time. In between those segments, it’ll be tony’s take two as always, at roughly thirty two minutes after the hour, a little talk about my stand up comedy, which is on my blogged and also the next-gen charity conference, where we’re going to be media partners. We’re live tweeting, today’s show. If you’re on twitter, use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation on twitter our producer sam will be monitoring that for us if you prefer the phone so nineteen ninety eight, but if you prefer the phone, we’re at eight seven seven for eight xero for one to zero. We take a break and then when we come back learning office lease essenes, i’ll be joined by george grace, so stay with me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Hey, are you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio. I’m joined now by george grace esquire he founded g grayson company in nineteen ninety five. He has over twenty five years of experience in commercial real estate. He represents many non-profits and companies in their real estate transactions. Georges with mito help me with the first segment of learning office at least lessons. George grace, welcome to the show. Good morning. Good afternoon, tony. Pleasure to have you. It is afternoon. George has been drinking, but his seems cogent and i’m sure he’ll get through this segment just fine. Plus, we have a break in a few minutes. George. Why do non-profits usually need to examine a new space? What? What? What? What leads them, tio that several reasons first. Firstly, there you have a least that’s expiring, so that at least has to either be re negotiated or they have to move. Secondly, they’re growing rapidly and they need to get at the space. Doesn’t work for the moment anymore that it’s too small so they need more space. Or thirdly, they’re shrinking and this base is too big. And they’re paying a lot of money for space that they’re not. Using okay, those air, typical reasons, right? Hopefully not shrinking, but i imagine you’ve seen more of that now than you had say two years ago. Well, profits reducing, you know, it’s, i’ve seen a lot of a lot of the non-profits that i’ve worked with recently actually have expanded because there’s an opportunity in the marketplace because the rents have come way down so they see an opportunity to expand get a bigger front print. The tendency was non-profits as if we have the space, they’ll fill it with a use. Eso for a lot of the small, i would say the smarter non-profits are going out and trying to expand now, because now is the time to get cheap space. Okay. Oh, excellent. All right, now, your advice is that you you have to be willing to leave the space that urine so let’s, talk a little about your strategy. What? Why is that? Well, whether you’re going to renew the lease or your intention is to move from where you are, you have to go through the same process if you want to stay in the space. You you you were in and you want to re negotiate the least with the landlord. In order to best do that, you have to go out into the marketplace, find other alternatives that you’re willing to move. Teo, that is the key, and then use that as leverage against your present landlord and say to him, basically, if you don’t give me a great deal moving across the street because the landlord across the street is building’s half empty and is dying to have me and he’s doing all this, giving me all these concessions and benefits. So either you lower the rent or we’re moving. Okay, excellent. So definitely develop alternatives to where you are and then use those as leverage. Like you said. Now we have two attorneys on the show today, so i’m very conscious of jargon jail hold onto your wallet. Plus, we’ve locked up the valuables. Sam did that before you guys got here, so okay, a landlord now by landlord. You mean a building owner? Is that right? Correct. Okay. Let’s distinguish that from a non-profit that might be looking to rent from an existing tenant. That will make them a subtenant of sub lease. Okay, go ahead. Is the strategy while lester is the strategy different if you’re talking to a landlord, which is the owner versus talking to and negotiating with an existing tenant that you’re going to sub let from yes, ok as well, because there’s two things the tenant that sub leasing space has a different set of incentives than the owner does the owner is, has his incentives or her incentives is to make sure that their buildings full that they have that they have long term leases, preferably so they can re finance the property because one of the many owners and every owners have different incentives, but the mainstream usually wants to get their buildings full. They re finance the building and then take out money tax free. We’ll talk about that refinancing so in a few minutes as an incentive. But that’s the owner that’s the owner’s incentive, the tenant that subleasing has a lease which has a certain term certain number of years. It’s not forever, like the owner owns it forever. The tenant only owns it for two years or five years or ten years, so that he has a wasting asset. A longer term lease has more value for a tenant sub. Leasing it than a short term if you only have a year left on your lease who who wants to move in for just a year and then not know if beyond that year they can stay. So the value of that is diminished. That’s that what you mean by a wasting asset? Yes, the shorter the asset, the shorter of the length of the term, the less value that least has ok. So as as an organisation, or any as any tenants turned out to be an organization and any tenant as the least starts tio come toward its end, they get anxious about getting someone in there because they know that the shorter there time period that they have left, the less desirable that least becomes for other people to move in. Yes, and so they’re in a position to be much more flexible in terms of their rent. You know, the short of the least term is if they have ten if they’re subleasing for nine years, for example, than you know, that’s virtually like being a landlord. So there it’s, not as it’s still a fairly good asset, right? But one year well, and they’re not. Using this space well, well, sublease it for whatever we can get there, desperate to get seldman found money. This is the kind of detail we’re going to be talking about. We’re talking about learning office, least lessons with george grace of g grayson company. We take a break and stay with us. You didn’t think that shooting getting thinking, you’re listening to the talking alternate network. E-giving. Duitz good. Are you stuck in your business or career, trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Bonem hi, this is psychic medium. Betsy cohen, host of the show. The power of intuition. Join me at talking alternative dot com mondays at eleven a. M call in for a free psychic readings. Learn how to tune into your intuition, to feel better and to create your optimum life. I’m here to guide you and to assist you in creating life that you deserve. Listen every monday at eleven a, m on talking alternative dot com. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed, i and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back to the show. We’re talking about learning office, least lessons with george grace george before the before the break you were talking about having to be willing to leave, even if you really maybe don’t want to leave. So are we talking about bluffing? You’re the place where you currently are. Is that fair or no? You can consider it a bluff if your true intention is never to walk out the door but too, if you’re really wanna press the rents down, you have to be willing to walk the stronger you are in that position. If you really are willing it’s, very easy. If you’re bluffing. It’s there’s always a tension and you have to cause the landlord may say, you know what? Go, go they call your bluff. So so you you know that’s a gamble and you have to do it very strategically. I’ll give you one example. One time we were looking, the landlord had come in to visit to tenant and the tenant blurts algal, we want to stay. We have no intention of leaving that is giving your negotiating position away. Sort of revealed your cards. Yes, that cost him thousands. Of dollars. So so to generate these alternatives, you know, the first step, i guess, is to figure out what you need. Is that right? Yes. You know, let’s talk about that. How do you how do you figure that out? Well, there’s the number of there’s a variety of variables they have to look at the first one is how many square feet, too? You need that’s the first one that everybody looks at and everybody has sort of a, you know, a basic understanding of how many square feet they need or think they need, but that’s one variable of many. Okay, depending on what the uses of this straight office used. That’s. One thing, if you have specialized clients that come in that need, you know, certain access after hours, if you mean the handicap access handicap access. If you work twenty four seven, you want to be in a building that provides twenty four seven of air conditioning and access? If, ah so they’re abroad. If if you want, you may want a lot of security because you’re handling money. So you want to make sure the building is secure. There’s a lot of other aspects. In the operation of the building that will affect your organization. So you want to make sure that the building can accommodate what you’re doing, sort of the technical specifications of what you’re doing have to be met before you even look at the cost, because if you can’t operate in the building there’s no sense in making an offer, the price is irrelevant. You can’t operate, so the first thing you want to do is an organization is defined, what you need and what the critical elements of your space are that are absolutely necessary in order for you to operate. Then you go out into the marketplace and see what’s available that meet those criteria, okay, since the first thing that people think of and clearly not should not be the last thing, but since the first is the square footage, is there a way of determining how much square footage we need? Well, a good rule of thumb that that i use is usually around two hundred square feet per person. Now that rule of thumb is actually coming down a little bit because people are using space much more efficiently. You don’t see everybody getting officers. The cubicles, instead of being eight by six cubicles, are now five by six cubine cubicles so people and sometimes they go to desk space instead of actual cubicles, which makes it a four by four is space for person, so but as a general rule, you’re not going to be wrong. By using two hundred, you’ll have plenty of space now. You may whittle that down to one hundred fifty or hundred seventy five per person because you have to also take into account you have common areas, you have circulation space, you have bathrooms, you have conference rooms, kitchen’s oppcoll that adds into that number, and one of the things that you mentioned is the population that the non-profit might be serving, they may have special needs. They also might be a special population that a building might find that they don’t really want that population for whatever reason, coming through the building during regular hours, something like that of a great example of that. I represented a day school here in manhattan, and they have kids, kindergarten age kids and younger coming in in baby carriages. Most buildings are horrified when i told them they didn’t want that population in there at all, even though they’re not offensive in any way, rather cute at times, but we had to find a building that actually could accommodate them, and it was few and far between the other. They had also another requirement that they needed open space. Try getting open space in manhattan, but that’s a requirement of the law in new york state for a day school? Well, i found them a building with the roof three story building with a wide open roof that they converted into a school yard. So but that’s the type of thing where it was a needle in a haystack, how many buildings would they would allow that, you know, a hundred children into the building and have rooftop space for them? Very unusual, but those of the oppcoll requirements that they had to operate, and unless they had them, they couldn’t go into the building. Makes no sense, as you said, makes no sense to explore space that doesn’t meet your basic right basic needs. I think lawyers would be another undesirable population if you had a lot of lawyers on your staff that that could be good work against you as a potential tenants, you know, you can be helpful. Sometimes lawyers. Lawyers are always safe target. Especially when you’re arrested. You can almost never get in trouble making fun of lawyers i’ve learned onstage. Okay, so so now that you’ve got your you got your needs defined? Yes, but of course, lawyers could be enormously helpful. Like you and robert smith are today. Even defined your needs. Now you go out and look for it, right? Yes. Ok. How do you find the spaces? The spaces and the buildings that meet your needs? Well, what typically happens is if i mean an executive director of an organization, they’ll say, well, we need fifteen thousand square feet and i said, well, how do you know that? Well, i i know it’s. Fifteen thousand square feet. You know, let’s, go look at some spaces and that’s. The first reaction. They people want to get a visceral reaction. They want to see that you want to see and touch stuff. You know, before you start going into the numbers about do you really need that money? Square feet? And what is what kind of air conditioning are you looking for? How? You operating? No one’s interested in the details in the beginning, i want to get out. They wantto look, they want to walk around, they want to get out of the office. They want to see stuff and it actually serves a purpose even though it’s, in some sense, is a waste of time because they don’t know what they want, you know, you know, while you look at things, if you don’t know what you really want but it does serve a purpose in the sense that they get a sense of the type of space they like. They like loft space. They like normal office space with drop ceilings, you know, dark space, sometimes companies like dark space because they’re using computers all the time. I went into a space that these wonderful window line there, all the shades were drawn and why? Because they’re computer programmers, the light was anathema to him, so but people want to go see and they want to get a feel for the space. And once you go through that, you do learn a lot. You find out what they like, what they don’t like. What type of lobbies air good you. Know buy-in various factors that are they could not articulate that they are they they do articulate in their expression when they see something ok, and for me, that’s a hugely valuable amount of information that i get and then i go back and sit down with them and say, what do you really need? And then at that point, we can really refine our search. Now we have in a sense of the type of building they want, the amount of light they like neighborhood can also be important neighborhood, and that doesn’t only apply in new york, new york city, but what part of the city you want to be in could be very important where your employees coming from, where the people you’re serving, coming from right neighborhood yep, neighborhoods a big factor, and especially to when you’re negotiating rents because some neighborhoods and more expensive than others. So tenants well, you know, may want to stay in the area there in that they’ve been in and fifty years, but that area now is the most expensive area in the city, and they can’t afford to stay in that, so now they really are forced to look. At other areas, and it also helps in the negotiation. You want an alternative, you get noel turner that you’re willing to go to in a less expensive area. That’s big leverage to use against your current landlord. Okay, so how do we then get to the state where we start making offers so that we can get these bonified alternatives? Tio tio use in our negotiation with where we are? Well, so we’ve looked at a bunch of spaces. We make sure that they meet the technical requirements of the tenant of the organization latto we then look at the financial aspects of the of of each transaction because at the end of the day, it’s the money decision. That is the last decision that is made. So you have five or six spaces that work on a technical level. You you can either do one of two ways you can make offers to each landlord, including your own. Or you can ask for you, khun send each owner and or if pia request for proposal and have them making offer to you. Okay, that’s interesting, but that probably only applies to organizations that might be looking for a certain minimum spacer. If you’re just looking for a couple of thousand square feet, the odds of you successfully delivering a request for proposals to her landlord are pretty slim. Well, you could deliver them, but the odds of getting a response quite slim. There’s a couple of factors that go into that one is how much space if you’re taking two hundred thousand square feet perfectly every every landlord wants you, they’ll stand on their heads. The answer on our fifty okay in a soft market, you can also even if you’re a small, our tenant, you can also ask for nora pee in a tight market. Unlikely you have to make offers. You have to get the landlord’s attention when you say smaller let’s say smaller in what is a soft market in a lot of places now would that include, like, say, ten to fifteen thousand square? Yeah, i would say that’s anything under ten, you would probably make an offer, but ten and over you, khun certainly it’s not embarrassing. Tio have ah, haven’t landlord respond to a north pick and then so that our f p lays out what your requirements are and how the and then it’s, just the reverse of an offer to offer your putting it. I’ll pay you twenty dollars a square foot and rent in the r p you’re saying, what will the rent be for all of the things we’re requesting, you know, ten thousand square feet on the fourth floor, you know, in the southwest quadrant of the building, you specify exactly what you want and the landlord rules respond to that. Okay, so i think this is a good point, whether we’re whether we’re doing the r f p or whether we’re making an offer, talk about some of these other variables that you can you can work with besides trying to negotiate the rent falik build outs is one, but there are a lot of what we call in the profession concessions so one is the landlord will build the space or the land will give you fifty dollars a square foot for you to build a space. They’ll give you free rent free rent, not just two, build a space, but after the space is built and you’re in the space and that free rent offsets your your expense expenses for architects from moving things. Like that because you could negotiate the period of free rein. How many months that’s going to last? Okay, there’s. A myriad of clauses in annalise, which i’m sure you’ll get to later. But you know, the electric claws can be done in a variety of ways. There are escalations that could be they could be measured. Okay jargon jail what’s an escalation. The landlord in the least, always has some sort of escalation factor that corresponds to the cost of operating the building. So, as the building operating expenses go up over time, the increase is usually passed on to the tenants. Okay, but we can negotiate whether it is. And so now it’s, the measuring how it’s measured. So they’re actually formulas then is that right there? Numerous formulas. Ok, ok. What is the mother? Let’s? Not go into the formulas? That’s. Mathematics. What are some of the other variables that we can be negotiating around? This is interesting. Well, there’s, a lot of you know, the certainly the rent is the major one who has the major impact. But electric escalations t eyes. Which is the construction? How? The construction was a stand for lieutenant installation ten. Installation building how the space is delivered. Is it delivered raw? Is it delivered? Partially finished? Is it delivered with bathrooms with air conditioning? All those things have to be negotiated. Really? So? So space doesn’t automatically come with bathrooms and cerini not necessarily necessarily. Okay. Interesting. Okay. And then if you have specific requirements that need to be built in, you have a vault that you want because you are you’re a lad. And you want plumbing for your sinks that also can be negotiated into the into the rent if acquired. Okay, we have just a couple minutes left. Let’s. Talk about working with a broker, a real estate broker and creating incentives for that person to work for you. First of all, who does a broker work for the law is that whoever pays you is the principal. And whoever receives the peyton payment is the agent. So the broker gets paid by the landlord. Okay, traditional that maybe something that now is that only makes bro hold on sec. Look that guy’s taking over the show. Does that make a thie the so i think people are not familiar with that. So a broker, who’s who’s. Spending time with you looking at space, they’re actually getting paid by the landlord or the owner of the building it’s like you if you’re buying a house that’s the same thing nice lady shows you the house ingratiates herself with you and makes you know you’re her best friend now she’s representing the seller it’s the same with the broker unless you hyre that broker to be your agent. And if you hire the that broker, you have a piece of paper that says, george grace is my exclusive broker, he represents us his fiduciary responsibilities does to us even though he’s getting paid by a third party. The law is that if you have a written document, it negates that the common law of principle agency okay, based on so we’re no longer than looking at who pays the broker. We’ve been looking at that piece of paper exactly, okay? And is that something that that non-profits looking for space should have it’s interesting non-profits are the more progressive groups? They because they want they want clarity, they want transparency, and they want incentives aligned with theirs better than even for-profit they tend to want tohave these relationships. And want them in writing and want their understanding. So it’s, clear to the executive director, is clear to the board so that they are getting the best information for them, for them to make the best decision. Okay, so they’re getting good information, and they could make a decision, property rights, that’s, something that non-profits should should look for and to ok, we have to stop there. George graces principle of g grace and company founded in nineteen ninety eight, this is our first segment of learning office, least lessons. George pleasure to have you on the show, thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me my pleasure. Stay with us after the break, it’s, tony’s, take two, and then we’ll continue learning office lease lessons with robert j smith and kate piela. Stay with me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics politically expressed. I am montgomery taylor, and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office needs better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills. Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s. The answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back time for tony’s, take two at roughly thirty two minutes after the hour little about my block this week. There’s a standup comedy video of mine from july i did a show at gotham comedy club on west twenty third street in manhattan in a couple months ago, and that video is on my block. E, m p g a d v dot com also want to remind you that we are media partners for the next-gen charity conference that’s on november seventeenth and eighteenth here in new york at the tribeca performing arts center. Some of the speakers are craig newmark, the founder of craigslist and craigconnects duitz and he’s been a guest on this show, rabbi shmuley boteach, america’s rabbi and also charles best, the leader of donors choose dot org’s that’s, just two of about fifteen or seventeen speakers that they have throughout the day on november seventeenth. And then there are other sessions on november eighteenth. I’ll be there interviewing speakers as they come off stage, and you’ll hear those interviews on the show afterwards. So the conferences november seventeenth and eighteenth. You can get information and get your tickets at next-gen charity dot. Com and that is tony’s take two for friday, september sixteenth. With me now is robert smith. Robert is a no attorney. Opened his law practice in nineteen ninety three. He has represented renters, buyers and sellers of commercial and residential properties. He’s, also an experienced real estate and commercial litigator with me, also is kate piela. Kate is executive director of dance new amsterdam, a contemporary dance organization in new york city. Kate robert welcome. Hi, tony. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having a pleasure to have you were continuing learning office. Least lessons. Now, robert has reviewed dancing or amsterdam’s. Lise and robert. There was something that you want to talk about in terms of when rent starts and we’re going to get to that shortly. Let’s. Just start a little bit with the least history. Maybe kate, if you wantto just a little bit about how this least came about. Well, initially dance new amsterdam was dance space center, and it was up uptown a little bit on broadway for fifty one broadway. And they needed a new lease because they’re at least was running out on the new place and they were invited down. Tto help! Participate in the revitalization of lower manhattan after nine eleven, and so that was the initial sort of of research that was going into this in the city was open to bringing non-profits and cultural organizations to help the revitalization and dna they they re branded, changed their name to dance new amsterdam for the air they were moving into. And we’re the first cultural organization to risk the move down into do you know, in the aftermath of what was going on down in lower manhattan? Okay, okay. And and they were moving into a public space? Yeah. Publicly owned building in that it is a city owned building it’s a sun building. And we’re going to talk a little about that because that has implications for for lease negotiations. So turning robert to you, one of the things you want to mention was in terms of when rent starts to be paid. What? What is what is the least say? And what can we learn from that? This goes actually duck tales with some of the things that george was talking about earlier when he mentioned that one of the things that can be discussed are either rent. Concessions or on allowance for a period of time that would permit the tenant too, do negotiations or renovations of the space. And while that was going on to have a forbearance of rancid, basically not be able to pay rent while that’s happening. So it’s essentially they take the space, they sign the lease. And then there was a period of free rent. And during that period of time, during that period of time, the tenant is doing the work too customised the space to build it out. And that is one of the things was happening here, the actually it seemed like and when i looked at the police and i know you mentioned this to you when you and i first discussed this, that it seems like a generous period of time that was given to dna for its buildout, they got sixteen months of free rent. Okay, that does sound like quite a long time. You’re in four months, right? Does butt thie issues that dna was facing at the beginning of its terms. I meant that as it turns out, it wasn’t long enough on. And i think that the importance one of the important lessons is to try to build in as much flexibility in terms of time to tie it in rather to an event to say ok, when we are done with our construction, part of which is coming from city funding. Okay. And here you have a city owned building also by that in rather than a specific period of time. So so you were in this public building. And this is where some of the implications of being in a publicly owned a city owned building are on dh. You had to get permits right on dh permission for the build outs. And that took a lot of time. Well, money renovate. Every organization has to get permits to build out. There was just some walls that we hit with the entrance because there’s so many students coming in the entrance to the building initially was a public public entrance to department of buildings on to eighty broadway. We ended up having to find another entrance in the building, which meant we had to expand theory, jinnah ll amount of space and redesign the the plan. Okay, so this all added to the time exactly and then getting new permits. Because you have to do it on the original design and then there i mean, there’s, yeah, there’s permitting, right and there’s always going to be something unanticipated in build outs and sounds like yours was extreme having to find a new entrance. And so robert that’s your point about trying not to negotiate a finite time? Because as it turns out, even sixteen months wasn’t enough time. It’s true. And i think that any time that you’re talking about build outs and as kate mentioned, when you have permits, anybody has to get permits when they’re making changes when they’re doing building the department of buildings is particularly overworked and overburdened, and they get tremendous number of requests and things that they have to look at. So, you know, you need to have an expediter you need to get things through it’s a time consuming process added to that is that for dna, their funding was also public funding. So i think any time that you have the city involved in multiple layers of a transaction, you have multiple opportunities for delay, even more than you would with other parties. What was that? What was the nature of that? Public funding city agency’s funding dancing came through numerous public and private, but we got it through the elected officials through h hud laura manhattan development corporation. So if you look at all these layers of public funding, there’s rules and regulations and reports that have to be followed procedures and reports filed and followed to get thes and this is adds to delay possibilities now, robert what’s the likelihood that, ah, landlord is going to agree to flexibility in terms of when the least payment start different circumstances will lead to different results in this particular instance. Great lawyer answer. Love that. No problem. We do what we can in in this particular instance, we had a situation where the space that dna was coming into had been vacant for many years. I think it was about ten years from what? What kate had mentioned. So you had a tenant coming in that had a better bargaining position than it might if it was coming into space that had been used for a period of time. Or if there was a lot of competition from other entities that were looking to move in here, dna is the only game. In town, they wanted to move into this space, the landlord in this case, the city or there was another entity that was in between the city and dna that was technically a tenant in subtenant situation, so dna had a lot of leverage, and i think given that it was in a better position to dictate some of the terms to the landlord, including the term about look, when we are going to start paying rent, when we’re going to be ready to start paying rent, if they didn’t have all of that advantage, i don’t think they would have been in as good a position and, you know, often that’s the case, and i think that’s again, going into some of things george was talking. There is the caveat to add to this whenever anybody gets public funding the use of that funds to rebuild or to renovate, or whatever you do with it is the life of the bond because you get bonds to get public funding, that government gets a bond to get the money, and they give it away to nonprofit organizations, and there was, and that agreement has between a b between the landlord. And the city, because it’s public funding in the agency that’s giving the funding. And so i think this points back to again public funding, publicly owned building and a commercial landlord in between, as with this whole process, so that complicated things, but it also makes it a little odd sometimes in trying to understand these covenants of what is the life of the bond and these sort of things, because things can be manipulated much easier within a system now, my correct you were you were going to be subletting this space. Is that right? Okay. And that robert, that has some implications, right? Because now we’re talking about we’re dealing with the tenant who has the lease, and not directly with the building owner that’s, true and again, that follows up on some of the things that george was talking about in terms of what the incentives are and what the considerations are it’s more of a concern, too, the overland lord, the owner of the building, and in this case that was the city of new york and ah so it’s more of a concern to that anthony than it is here to the the tenants so to speak, because this was a ten and subtenant situation. So they didn’t have the same direct level of incentive that the city did, but again, because the city owned the building. I think that was a consideration that had to be brought into play here. And i don’t really think it was as much as it might have at the time that the lease was initially discussed. Okay, we’re gonna take a break talking with kate piela and robert smith, continuing our discussion about learning ofthis least lessons to stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping hunters. People be better business people. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing a mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing efforts. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile marketing. Their motto is. We do whatever it takes to make our clients happy. Contact them today. Admission one one media dot com talking. Zoho welcome back to the show and your aptly named host, robert. We’re talking about some of the other variables that can be negotiated, whether by dancing the amsterdam or gender, generally besides just square footage and rent. What are some of the other variables that tenant khun b negotiating around? A lot of them revolve around liability issues? I think that in a number of instances, landlords will put provisions and leases that essentially try to passed through all liability to tenants. So as a for instance, always insisting the tenants have insurance and, you know, saying that if there is a requirement, for instance, and we discussed that if there are construction items that the landlord is required to undertake, either for reasons of statutory changes or insurance requirements, for instance, they have to put in sprinklers, they need compliance with the americans with disabilities act. There may be construction that goes with that, and the landlord is going to try to pass that through to the tenants to make the tenant liable to basically pay for the chillies. So so changes to the building structure can be passed through to the tenant. Even the tenants only will be there for five or ten years and but still, that could be a requirement in the least yes, and and i and i think that’s the kind of thing that again, at the beginning, you have to be able to step forward and say, no, this is something that you’re doing is a landlord and it’s for your benefit, and you’re required to do it. We don’t want to have to pay for that, okay, i see you nodding way actually act somewhat as a landlord of our own space. So if the h vac system breaks down that’s our responsibility to fix anything within our space, if something goes wrong, we have to manage it. The elevator is a different story, but that’s the one thing so he’s, right? You’re talking terms in your lease? Not not because you’re leasing, not because you’re subletting space to others, but within your linden our lease. You’re responsible for those things. Yeah. Okay. Now, robert what’s the likelihood that a that a building owner is goingto negotiate some of that away, you know, again, it goes back to the circumstances. And here, i think where you had a tenant with leverage coming. In you may again be in a better position at that point. The landlord is going to say, this is a benefit for everyone in the building. It’s not just, you know, for me as a landlord, yes, i’m being required to do it, but that means that your subject to that as well tenant and so i want you to take that on. So i think that’s a rough go in a lot of instances for attendant to be able to assert that. But i do think that it’s a point of negotiation and again depending upon the relative position of the parties is relative, you know, strength of their of their posture overall. That’s going to determine how likely a landlord is to give in on something like that, okay? And any one of these things that were talking about they all get put into the mix so that if you don’t don’t succeed in one variable, you might use that is okay. Well, if you’re not goingto relent on the past throughs of the required construction, then give us a break on this other thing, right? So what? What might be one of the other things sometimes. It’s insurance requirements insurance what’ll happen is that a landlord is gonna want tended to have ah, a certain amount of insurance to cover liability for property damage for personal injury damage. And it’s not always a reciprocal thing. And what i mean by that is that what happens if there’s damage in a space that’s caused by the landlords negligence with landlord is going to want to have the tenant essentially even take responsibility for that and try to absolve themselves of responsibility? Sometimes the landlord will say, any lie about any recovery that you can have can only be from us in our interest in this building. Normally a landlord’s interest in the building is going to be minimal. Okay? So now so they’re trying to limit their liability to their financial interests or their financial stake in the building. Well, correct, how does that? What does that mean? Well, what it means is that jargon, general jargon, prison state i don’t even know what that what were we talking about? You know, just you know, you’re not understanding tony that’s. Essentially what it means is that if if there is liability that could be assessed against the landlord and, you know, let’s say it’s a million dollars worth of liability, the landlord may only have a really ownership interest in the building that’s minimal because it has a mortgage, for instance, okay? And if it has a mortgage, then it doesn’t really have equity in the building, and it doesn’t have assets anywhere else. You as attendant want to be in a position to tell the landlord if something like that happens, we want to be insured as well. We want to be covered for a situation like that. We want you to have at least the same measure of insurance coverage that you’re insisting that we have on that space. Okay, so that’s, something that you can negotiate because otherwise and landlord, does something wrong? You go after the landlord? The landlord said, sorry, i don’t even have five cents to pay toward this. Good luck and, you know, you are essentially out of luck, and then you have to. Okay, did you have any insurance related issues around this lease? Well, it’s interesting because we’re in a building with multiple tenants and above us is the department of buildings and we just went through kind. Of a new issue of you’re laughing but it’s it’s fast, sadie it’s a laugh of pain. It is fifth floor had a leak in a pipe which came all the way down and pulled into our fourth floor. We’re on the second floor, so but it came all the way through the walls. We found the leak, but then it pulled at dna and then went down in dim o’dell’s. And then it started out that we were liable for that. But then when we did the research which we become responsible for its very interesting who’s responsible it’s like the last place that it came down it’s. Like what? We don’t care you it came from above. So then we have to do the research and go. But it came from you guys and they said, well, now you have to prove it it’s fascinating these how people passed things off and you have to be very careful and conscientious and it’s, time consuming and there’s damn dancing after them. Two vs models down below. Imagine they have quite a legal legal contingency contingent. They have a model lawyers. You have a mob of dancers and and young. People learning dance, and they’re not that dangerous. But the interesting thing, too, is that when you, when you see the leases that are produced, they’re probably going to be about seventy or seventy five pages long, there’s a lot that goes into them and there’s a lot that has to be reviewed and there’s a lot that can be missed and passed over. So it is imperative that from the first moment, when that least comes in, that every word in line is examined because every one of them could contain some type of klaus that’s going to imperil that tenant at some point in time, so it really requires diligence and vigilance to go through every every piece of it. Okay to that point, i think you really need to be intimately involved in a sense, with the process as the executive director and the board, because there are also paragraphs when i first because i didn’t sign this lease, i was i inherited all of this when i went through the least, i’ve found like paragraphs, which neutralised other paragraphs, which seemed to protect the organization, which i found really interesting dancing after them have ah, lise. Leasing specialist on attorney advising them, do you know i know you weren’t you weren’t running, we did and, you know, it’s a very complicated thing because we have thie over lise, and then the lease and deadlines to get the funding and deadlines to move into a new space and this whole really camaraderie about revitalisation of lower manhattan. So i think all of that sort of thing really like i can put the fear of god in a sense or the universe into some, you know, a group it’s like my head if we don’t do it right now and we don’t sign, we won’t get the money, and then we won’t have a life and, you know, it’s something that has to be taken very slowly and being very involved as an end, both lawyers have said, right and more rationally, maybe then some of the emotion that that could be could be swept up into it. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. But i think that this was a difficult time. It was very emotional for everyone. We have just about a minute left, robert there’s, something i want to talk about in terms of it. Not not. Not being even an obligation of an owner to provide water and electricity just in a minute left. Can you explain that and what we need to look out for? Well, sometimes there is, ah, clause that landlords will put in that says that they don’t even they’re not obligated to provide certain what you would consider to be basic services, and normally they do provide those services, but there may be times where, for some reason they’re interrupted and at that point, the landlord of saying, well, you know, sorry, we don’t have an obligation to provide it for you. And again, that’s one of those things where you say look, we can’t function if those things aren’t provided, your obligation is to provide certain basic services for us. You have to guarantee that you can’t tell us that you don’t have an obligation to do that. So that is something that has to be discussed right off the bat. It seems like it’s something that should be automatic. It’s not yeah, water, electricity, right lutely, we have to leave it there. Robert j smith opened his law practice in nineteen ninety three representing renters, buyers and sellers of commercial and residential properties. Robert, thank you very much for being on the show. Thanks for having me, tony appreciate pleasure. And kate piela is exactly the director of dance new amsterdam contemporary dance organization in new york city. Kate really? Thank you very much for sharing dnas sort of woeful story about about the least at least. Yeah, thank you very much. Well, thank you for having me. Pleasure. Thanks for sharing that story. And i want to thank your publicist, amber, for recommending the the idea of the show. This whole show was really pitch to me by ember, and i like the idea. I hope that you will be with me next week, when we will be talking about prospect research on women donors. The last of my interviews from fund-raising day two thousand eleven, samantha cohen, from the american civil liberties union will be with me to talk about finding information about women that is valuable but often hidden. And the second half of the show next week learning lobbying limits or legal contributors from san francisco, jean takagi and emily chan explain the limitations on lobbying for charities. We all know charities aren’t supposed to. Lobby. But what activities? Constant constitutent lobbying? Can you have a petition? Can you say things that events or in personal face to face meetings? What can’t you say they’ll break all these lobbying limitations down for us? You can keep up with what’s coming up on the show. Sign up for our email alerts on our facebook page, obviously, facebook dot com and then the name of this show did you like today’s show, please like us on the facebook page? You’ve been listening live, but you can also listen. Archive itunes you can subscribe listen on the device of your choice at any time, you’ll find us on itunes at non-profit radio dot net on twitter you can follow me i hope you were with us today. The hashtag is non-profit radio or you can follow me personally and i’m tweeting often about philanthropy and the show as well, and use that hashtag non-profit radio use it recklessly. The creative producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is claire meyerhoff, our line producer and the owner of talking alternative broadcasting is sam liebowitz. Social media is by regina walton of organic social media. Regina has arrived back in the san francisco area. After driving cross country from new york, we miss you already, but fortunately, you’re going to stay with the show. This is tony martignetti, tony martignetti non-profit radio hope you’ll be with me next friday, one to two p m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting, always at talking alternative dot com. I think that’s a good ending. 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