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Nonprofit Radio for May 1, 2020: Real Estate & Racial-Equity DEI

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My Guests:

Jane Brody: Real Estate

How have markets been impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vicus Partners.




Tristan Penn: Racial-Equity DEI
Tristan Penn shares how Coronavirus has disproportionately hurt Black and Indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your nonprofit. Tristan is NTEN‘s community engagement and equity manager. (This is part of our 20NTC coverage.)



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[00:00:12.24] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:23.24] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is our first ever show in 487 that is not produced in studio. I put it together using a dizzy audacity and zoom. Let’s see how I did. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I throw is Anthill asthma. If I saw that you missed today’s show Real estate, how have markets being impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vikas Partners and Rachel Equity D I. Justin Pen shares how Corona virus has disproportionately hurt black and indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your non profit trust. In his end, tens community engagement and equity manager, this is part of our 20 and TC coverage. Tony Steak, too. Take a breath, were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is real estate. It’s a real pleasure to welcome to the show. Jane Brody She is executive director at Vikas Partners in New York City. Before Vikas, she helped launch a mentoring program serving over 10,000 Children and a foster care program to help over 8000 teenagers in the system make the transition to independence. She’s been a consultant to Ben and Jerry’s UNICEF, the American Red Cross, Coca Cola and the Special Olympics. She’s done stand up comedy company is at Vikas partners dot com. Jane Brody Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:29.84] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Great to be here.

[00:02:31.52] spk_1:
Real pleasure to have you tell me about your stand up comedy. I’ve done some of that. What’s what were your gigs? Where did you do?

[00:02:38.54] spk_2:
Well, I took a little class, and I always like to do stuff that kind of scares me a little bit and challenges may. So then, after I did the class and we did kind of Gotham startup, I did a couple open mic nights and I was invited back, and I liked it a lot. But apparently the owner of the club who booked me said, You have to bring 10 friends next time and next time. So I didn’t wanna have to, like, burden people with asking them to continue to watch me and follow May. And I realized very quickly that my humor was very regional, like I understood, you know, New York comedy specific. But it’s much started to be able to be funny and all the markets and how good the major comics are about sort of national humor, right? I enjoy it. I recently just improv class because I like doing those kinds of things. I think it makes you fresh and it challenges you.

[00:04:14.57] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, I’ve done stand up comedy and improv. I took a bunch of improv classes that the Upright Citizens Brigade and I took some stand up comedy classes with this Manhattan comedy school. Um, I’ve played Gotham, but only, you know, like you. It sounds like I do the new talent shows where Oh, you got a visitor there. Okay. Um, do talent shows? Yeah. We bring hers. Brings you gotta bring 10 people or 12 people or 15 people or something in orderto in orderto Get your stage time. Yeah, but I agree improv especially. You know, it’s very good for speaking confidence. I loved it. I think it helps me a lot. I like those. Did you did you try regional comedy outside New York? Is that how you?

[00:04:19.04] spk_2:
No. But we discovered that afford median income. Who’s been doing it for 15 years? And he’s told us to the story how he lived in his pinto, basically and traveled from city to city, Pittsburgh, all the small markets and when market his his bits than his time and then he’d go to the next city in the next city. I was like, I’m not gonna do that.

[00:05:19.94] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s hard to. It’s hard to make money at stand up comedy very few people to, and it’s true. You know, I’ve never even thought of it, cause I the only place I’ve ever done stand up is in New York City. I’ve never wanted to be regional or national, but absolutely true. I don’t I’m not sure people would get me outside outside the clothes. Maybe Westchester that would be about as far. Um, right. So So let’s talk about real estate. And, you know, our listeners are small and mid sized nonprofits. Um, now you you know, the New York City New your New York City market Are you able to generalize like to the t broader than that when we talk about

[00:05:22.42] spk_2:
course. Definitely. I think the same. Planning things and considerations Air true for nonprofits nationally. And I on the international board with other tenant rep brokers internationally. So I always used to having conversations.

[00:05:38.41] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, um and so what are we seeing? Real estate wise around the pandemic. What’s the impact

[00:05:47.80] spk_2:
of certainly some things that you would think there are a lot more sub lets that are hitting the market transactions air down. In New York City of, for instance, it’s been down 40% in the first quarter. I think that it’s gonna be a very rich landlord reaching for us market more than you know, a tighter market where Layla is gonna be a little more difficult. So they’ll be more flexibility

[00:06:16.90] spk_1:
when we come out of this. And people are looking again for real estate. That’s encouraging. On the 10 inside that there’s gonna be that kind of flexibility. Like you said, you know, landlords reaching out, you think.

[00:06:23.87] spk_2:
And also I would say the other great. A huge amount of space that will be available will be retail. It’s gonna be a lot longer for retail to come back because of restaurants and all the other stores. That just a change of pattern of how people can access those spaces is gonna be very different.

[00:06:44.24] spk_1:
Um, when we you know, if any organization is thinking about changing real estate or just use, I guess maybe even just using their existing real estate when when we end up going back to offices. What other considerations there? How do you think things have changed in terms of office space usage?

[00:07:03.50] spk_2:
I think some of the considerations of the large brand tech companies, household names, air changing the amount of physical space per employee so typically was 175 square feet per employee. Now it’s going up to 300 square feet. Does that mean that they’ll be taking more space? I don’t think necessarily. I think people will be varying worked times and changing how many people can use space to a different time. They’ll also be technological impacts. For instance, people will be relying more on their handheld devices than that, necessarily having centralized computer systems, touch lists, entry to spaces, booking of conference rooms, anything where there’s high touch experiences. I think also just the way that people interact. There won’t be as many large group meetings, and the way that we work together will be very different. For a while, you

[00:08:06.40] spk_1:
mentioned booking conference rooms. What you mean? Like, if there’s a, uh, there’s booking a reservation system outside the room and lots of people touch it, is that

[00:08:16.84] spk_2:
it actually, or, you know, touchless check in. Sometimes people hand you and I have had to check in when you go into a space for security. So I think some of those things will be rethought and they’ll be more innovations along the way that we work together in a virtual way. And I think people’s ability to work at home and the office will be expanded. We’ve all adjusted, and we might have several waves of what’s gonna come ahead. We don’t really know.

[00:08:44.04] spk_1:
You know

[00:08:44.26] spk_2:
what I think we’re all anxious to get back to work and be together.

[00:08:47.85] spk_1:
You said, um, typical was 175 square feet per per employee. I don’t that’s that. That sounds like a lot, but is that the average is the average cubicle 175 square feet of space?

[00:09:26.94] spk_2:
Uh, roughly. I mean, there’s lots of different ways they call it bench seating. If you’ve seen lots of staff in small desks in front of them, that could be a slow is 100 per person or 75 square feet per person. I think it’s gonna be more generous than it was before, and we’d have large bullpen seating with lots of people in rows. I think that’s gonna look different. And also, I think they’ll be more spacing between desks and the physical nous of space changed.

[00:09:33.85] spk_1:
Yeah, I e. You know, you said, you think it’ll it could go as high as like 300 square feet per person, which is almost almost double the 1 75

[00:09:43.10] spk_3:

[00:09:50.74] spk_2:
not sure are non profit clients conduce that as as generously, Yeah, but that’s what I’m getting at right. I think it depends on what are non province use the space for. So that’s part of determining what the next steps for the non profits are. You do you have to have a large H Q like mothership. Do you need small offices? And in the various communities you’re serving, what will be the physical footprint of the space that you need to have some fulfill? Your mission, I think, is kind of part of the new sort of long term strategic planning into Cove it and in general, for non profits.

[00:12:18.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice oven experienced partner You, JJ, Doom and Affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com. Now back to real estate with Jane Brody, and I see I fix that mistake with Jane Brody’s name. This audacity is so you can get so compulsive with it. It’s so alluring to take out every, um and on then. But if I if I take all those out, you’re gonna wonder. Who the hell am I listening to? Where’s tony? Sums and ours and his mistakes. So I’m not taking out everything. That is a slight imperfection. Some some things. You know what? Some things have got to stay the same. Every damn thing cannot change that. We’re accustomed to its It’s doing settling. I mean, there’s enough changes already to non profit radio. I’m keeping in the arms in the eyes and the okays. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I’m keeping those in, um, there. I’m keeping that in. Some things have just gotta remain the same. I am not perfect in the way I talk. And by now, after 487 shows, you don’t expect me to be so the hell with audacity, ease, intricacies and perfect ability. I’m not taking advantage of it all anyway. It’s time for a break. No. Anyway, here’s more back to real estate with Jane Brody. When should we start talking to our existing landlord about whether we’re going to stay or about renewing? How early should that conversation start?

[00:12:34.84] spk_2:
It’s really two pronged approach. A lot of people think Oh, I haven’t talked to my landlord and they go towards very close to the end of the least. That’s not really the best model because it leaves you kind of trapped, dealing directly with your Lambert. What the best approach is a year, two years, a year and 1/2 before your lease is expiring, kind of figuring out what you really need the space or and what the purpose and function of your space. You have the right spaces. It’s the right size, or you’re in the right market in the right community and then engaging a broker which has no cost to you. The commission’s air baked into the deal, and what you do is you have your broker find you at least two or three options that you like. So you go on on tours, understand the market, see what your space would cost across the street, in the same area you like to be in, you get a negotiated, non binding letter of intent that your broker can work with you on. And then once you have a deal in place, then you can go to your existing landlord. We call it kind of a stocking horse in the trade, which is here’s something that I could get if I have to move, can you beat it? can you match it? What can you do with this existing opportunity against what? Staying in place? Most people want to renew and stay in place. And your broker can also negotiate that with your landlord. So you wanna have sort of two tracks. The best is at least a year and 1/2 a year into place because it takes probably a month to find the right space. You negotiate the letters of intent, take you at least a month to do the lease, and then if you have a build out, that’s four or five months. So that’s a good amount of time. Plus, everybody has Stakeholders may have you the board involvement the various teams in your organization. Does this fit the needs of the organization, and then you have to kind of engage everyone in the process.

[00:14:56.64] spk_1:
So where you call a stalking horse, I will just call leverage, right? You want to have. You won’t have another deal in hand that you can present to your current landlord and say, Look, you know, I could move, but everybody knows you don’t really want to move right. I mean, it’s a big hassle moving, sure, but you want to have some leverage over the over the person? Absolutely. So I can see why you got to start, like a year and 1/2 in advance,

[00:15:19.11] spk_2:
or I just want to make one other point. Tony. Some people are afraid to challenge their landlord because my landlord’s so great. He’s been a donor to my organization, and I think, uh, I think sometimes nonprofits are intimidated by that, But I people very much treated as separation of church in ST and ST you make a donation to something you believe in and on the other part of the isle you can certainly negotiate a least one has nothing to do with the other.

[00:15:31.87] spk_1:
And you made the point that a broker is free to the tenant, right?

[00:16:13.13] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, that Brooklyn tony that that works from a from a Do you else to end point is commission is baked into the transaction, and it’s a very old schtum. So in every transaction, there’s a landlord broker, an attendant rap broker. If you don’t have a tenant rep broker, and basically you’re just handing the condition completely over to the landlord broker, and I like to kind of talk about in terms of the wars. Wouldn’t wanna have one lawyer kind of representing both sides of the equation. You can. So you look for somebody who understands your work in your mission and can act on your behalf and, well, looking at the same data. So that’s another thing people think. Well, let me hire Let me get three or four people running around for me, but it doesn’t really work that well because we all look a co star, which is a proprietary database that we all subscribed. Teoh.

[00:16:31.94] spk_1:
Okay, so everybody’s got access to the same listings. What? You said that in any community, that’s nation

[00:16:37.28] spk_2:
yet it’s national, its international. Okay,

[00:16:39.91] spk_1:
okay. All right, So now all right. So we know we should start, like, maybe two years, a year and 1/2 in advance of the expiration of our least. So now what do we need to be thinking about in terms of our new space Or, you know, our existing space?

[00:16:55.26] spk_2:
Well, one thing that I think is really important is a good match with right land board. So I have just a couple of examples that really kind of illustrate this one is this organization I worked with? They they, uh, took in donations for babies. 03 year olds. They would get strollers and books and clothing, toys, and people would come with you could imagine garbage bags full of treasures. And then they would come to the building full of all their stuff in their hands, cribs everything and come into the lobby and go up in the elevators and make the donation on. And then the clients would come with not themselves or just their baby. They would bring five or six people because, you know, day care is a huge challenge for low income families. So a particular Landler didn’t like all that additional foot traffic,

[00:17:47.69] spk_1:
right? Probably bags of stuff being hold onto the elevator to Right?

[00:19:07.24] spk_2:
Right. So you’re crowding my other tenants. You’re crowding my elevator, you’re holding things up. So I was able to find them a landlord that adores what they do. They actually make donations, they help them with all kinds of support. And I recently ran into the landlord at an event, and they’re like Jane finding more tenants like this. We love what they dio and I have another case where I worked with this organization called Chess in the Schools. Wonderful organization had been in the building 17 years, and they had this, like, huge 12,000 foot space that was shaped like a pizza pot. I mean, how somebody designed this thing with slices as the various zones, but it was really expensive rent for them. They had downsized, but they had this, like, really strange requirement that once a week, 80 young people high school kids came to play chest, so they needed a certain kind of space. The landlord worked so hard to keep them in the building. He he helped me find the space within the building that was 4500 feet, renovated the space for them. And then there was no lag way leaving their old space and moving out of two years earlier their existing lease and gave them a brand new lease going 10 years, four. Very unusual. So if you get lucky with those kind of connections, so I always try to find landlords that are the right match for clients, I think it makes a big difference,

[00:19:28.74] spk_1:
and you have to be upfront about what your work is so if there are gonna be families coming through, You know, with kids, you know, the class A space landlord, you know, may not want that because they don’t want Children in the lobbies or if it’s gonna be folks with disabilities. And you know, some landlords may not be at all sensitive to that, and others may be completely embracing of that. So yes, true, we’ll be upfront about what kind of traffic you’re gonna create if it’s not strictly an office environment.

[00:20:13.39] spk_2:
And that’s really educating your broker to really understand your organization. And I kind of think of it as kind of putting that mission on my back and trying to, like, think about what that executive director or board member needs. I’m working with an adoption agency right now and one of the things that was really important to them. And I really thought a lot about this when I when I speak about this particular client, is they have birth mothers who are, you know, young women. Sometimes there are, you know, compromise situations. They’re kind of a lot of anxiety around giving your baby up for adoption and going to like a mainstream building where you’ve got turnstiles. Intense security screenings would be could be intimidating. So finding them a sort of quieter block building where they could walk in themselves, created in the best way. And also there’s confidentiality issues. There’s programming. So how can it be very front facing an appropriate for that particular client and meets the needs of the organization?

[00:21:14.64] spk_1:
Okay, yeah, I see. Just maybe just even giving their name at a security desk is, I don’t know, intimidating or off putting to a clientele like that

[00:22:20.64] spk_2:
or shelling a driver’s license or so really kind of matching what you’re trying to accomplish in this space. And I also think understanding what you’re using the space for Israeli import, you know? Are you doing classrooms or you’re doing training? Are you doing touchdowns? Space for your feet fieldworkers? I had one particular client who ah, was an arts organization. After School Arts Organization. It was created in the seventies when all the arts organizations were taken. All the art teachers were taken out of the school systems, so these two former teachers started organization and they hire freelance artists to come into schools, you know, lovely idea. Filling a need and then the schools would contract for these part time workers. This and they kind of grew the organization unwto through little tiny apartments that they were renting in the community in the city. So this executive director said, let me create one central place for the organization, a place where the artist can come, receive their materials, have training, have collaboration. And it’s really changed the environment of the organization and the way that the employees and the artist kind of bond on having a ton, equal footing and a connection in a place to be together.

[00:22:44.04] spk_1:
All right, Jane, um, so let’s talk about some common mistakes that you see that non profits, you know, can hopefully avoid,

[00:23:27.94] spk_2:
I would say typically timing, not having enough period of time to think about your space. So we talked about a year and 1/2 or two years. I’ve had people call May I’ve got a month left to my least. What should I dio? Okay, that’s certainly not doesn’t put you in the driver’s seat, right? Making sure that you have all the stakeholders involved in the process. The development people, your board, your your staff, understanding what you’re trying to accomplish in your space search being isolated and just working through the operations people. That’s really important. Another important part is that you could afford the space and that it fits with your budget. I mean, certainly Cove. It has been a real lesson and understanding the financial impact of things like rent to those air key mistakes.

[00:23:44.91] spk_1:
These mistakes, we’re gonna be reduced because we’re raising people’s consciousness about about them. All right, Um, all right, so I mean, I love it. You hit this a couple times, but you said that you can’t stress enough the importance of starting early. So you you have time. It’s not a crisis. You’re not trying to find space and negotiate a deal in three or four months, which may not even be doable,

[00:25:35.69] spk_2:
I think also, I want to mention just another example. I worked with a food pantry early on, and it was really interesting this particular organization, great organization, New York Common Pantry. And they had received a grant to help senior citizens receive food distribution through senior citizen centers. So it was a new program. They were gonna have vans leaving the central location going out to these new communities and providing food. So when we started looking for space and understanding what they could do, you started learning a lot about crazy things. Like if you get all this food and then your new distributed the weight of the food and the canned goods and all the foods that will be distributed could be really important on the weight of a building, so being in a second floor wouldn’t work. So we ended up being in a ground floor small warehouse, and then they had some other programs. Programmatic needs counseling. Nutrition program really split how they ended up solving the real estate. We had office in one location and food distribution in the vans and a different area. So sometimes the way that you solve the program programmatic needs can look different because of the the whole state weight breaks out. So it’s all pen of a learning experience some time

[00:25:42.44] spk_1:
and creative creative experience. All right. Jane Brody, she’s executive director and Vikas Partners. They’re at Vikas partners dot com. Jane. Thanks so much for being guest. Thanks for sharing.

[00:25:51.79] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Be safe.

[00:27:57.30] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software their accounting product. Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. You have a free 60 day trial on offer. It’s on the listening landing page. That’s the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take two. Take a breath, take a breath. Relax. You need to take care of yourself, not just once. Try to do each day, sit with yourself and clear your head. Focus on your breath. Meditate, nap. Whatever is good for you. Be good to yourself in a healthy, soothing, calming, loving way. There’s so much shit going down, and so much is being asked of you That is strange and difficult. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. You need it. Please take care of yourself, and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for racial equity. D I welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. You know the conference had to be canceled, but you also know we are persevering virtually. We’re sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin for a free 60 day trial. My guess now is just in pen. He is a community engagement and equity manager at n 10. The host of 20 NTC. Justin, welcome.

[00:27:58.74] spk_4:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:28:00.60] spk_1:
It’s great to have you. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we’re able to work this out. Virtually thanks so much. Yes. No, you’re You’re well and safe ing in Portland, Oregon.

[00:28:25.54] spk_4:
You know, I am. It’s some, you know, we’re all living a very new reality, So it’s definitely something that, uh, was kind of new to me. I worked 2 to 3 days a week, um, from home. But now I’m doing it all day. Every day

[00:28:33.04] spk_1:
of misery. Were maybe six years. Hopefully not seven, but maybe five for six days. Um, so you had really interesting topic? Ah, critical. Critical announces you what worked for us. A critical reflection of intends racial equity rooted. D I work? Yeah, I think this is obviously your responsibility at and then as

[00:28:50.28] spk_4:
that is, Okay,

[00:29:28.14] spk_1:
um and I’m still, you know, this D I is I’m 58 years old, so I didn’t grow up with this. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it, talking about it, struggling with it for and, you know, maybe not long enough, but three for 3 to 5 years, I’d say some ran. Um, so I have a pretty basic question, but I want to get it off my chest. What off, Mike? I wanted I want to get it out. Why? Why do you have to say racial equity rooted D I work, right? I would think that that’s just subsumed in D I

[00:31:10.70] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, I think there’s a lot of things, you know, I wanna give space because we only have 25 minutes. I could definitely talk for 25 minutes just specifically about this. However, I do think because we center all of our, um, racial our excuse me, our d I work with rooted in racial equity. It’s important to us because I think at the end of the day, there are a lot of systemic and oppressive things that have happened not only in this country, but also, um, within the nonprofit sector that really do effect people of color first. So, for example, there’s this idea of intersectionality, which does happen and is a thing. But also, like, you know, you can be a, um, a white woman who is just and still get a lot more privilege than a black woman who was disabled. So, um, so that’s just a just a bit of it all, too. And that’s why we center it with racial equity to explicit. Absolutely, Absolutely. And that’s not to say that it’s a binary where we are saying that racial equity above everything else and we’re not we’re gonna brush everything else off the table. There are other identities that, um, people identify with that air just is important. And, um, they they have their own, you know, marginalization within their own communities to, and those need to be honored as well to and considered. And, um, really makes in and made sure that they’re being prioritized during certain circumstances.

[00:31:47.94] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, well, you know, we we may end up going more than 25 minutes, because I Something’s according to meet it. What about this? This pandemic. How do you feel? Like this is highlighting. We’re gonna get there are. Actually two things I wanna ask you is exacerbating. Yeah, I want to start with almost over the highlight. How do you feel? Like this pandemic and the country and I’m focused on Let’s focus on the U. S. Yeah, uh, that has the reaction to it. They’re working from home. The we could talk about the s. My gosh, I could see how we usually go. 2125 minutes.

[00:31:52.27] spk_4:

[00:32:03.44] spk_1:
about the loan programs? Absolutely. Wherever you wanna go, How do you feel? Like the pandemic and the response to it have highlighted. Yeah, inequities.

[00:34:11.38] spk_4:
What a great question. Wow. So I can only speak from personal experience or just the identities that I bring to the table. So, um, I am I’m half black and I’m half Navajo. So my dad is black, and my mom is Navajo. And so, um, being that bi racial professional in the non non profit sector world, um, you know, as a black man and as a Navajo man as well, you know, you see these things and you have these very direct ties to the communities with which you navigate in and reside in the one thing that comes to mind is, um you know, all of my Navajo relatives. So I have a lot of member who relatives that are still on the rez on the New Mexico side. Um And so, um, one thing that’s really striking to me is that, you know, the last I mean, the numbers change every day, right? With these covert 19 cases. Um however, the last time I read it, um, it was, um per capita, the amount of cases after New York and after New Jersey, the next, um, the next amount of cases was the Navajo Nation under. Really? Yeah. And so that’s I mean, there’s their cases per capita, and I want to make sure that that portion Exactly. And so that’s really concerning because I have family on the rez. And also, um, it’s, um It kind of it speaks to the, um the years of historic, um, oppression And, um, you know, genocide that has happened with it within indigenous communities. Um, and how there has been, um, baked into, um, you know, communication and treaties and promises broken promises by the federal government. Why? This has kind of made, you know, this situation that we have now on the Navajo reservation. And I’m sure, um uh, among other tribes, something that is really, really pressing right now, there’s probably accounts everywhere. And so I just

[00:34:27.37] spk_1:
health care. Health care has been a serious negative problem. Serious problem on the indigenous peoples for generations, right? The health care on the reservations.

[00:36:01.23] spk_4:
And so it just ends up being something that, like, I hold near and dear to my heart because I think of all my family members that are on the rez and live on the Navajo Nation. Um and also just, you know, um, the the way in which, um, you know, the the federal government supports or doesn’t support the Navajo Nation, never being its own sovereign nation. And so I think there’s, um um this is really kind of, like, pushed everything to the forefront of what is wrong with the systems. And I think it also, you know, on the other side of things, you know, you see now as that this data is coming out, those who have passed away and died to come, Teoh, you know this illness, um, the majority of them are black people. And so that’s also concerning for me, Um, that, you know, I think that there is, um, something to be said for that. And I think, you know, that kind of also lends Teoh. There are people who aren’t able to, you know, work from home. They have to be out there to. And so I think it’s very interesting in a data point that, um as hopefully when all of this subsides will be able to look at and really sit through and figure out and find I mean, I would be willing to put money on, you know that. You know, people of color indigenous communities, black people and indigenous communities probably were disproportionately affected by this. This pandemic

[00:36:09.24] spk_1:
in terms of health care, unemployment, yes. Businesses closed, I

[00:36:35.13] spk_4:
write. And also systemic and systemic. You know, an institutionalized racism that has policies, practices that our priority not prioritizing them, or are looking over these communities to as well. If it goes past the health care and Maurin two systems as well, it’s not built for them. Um, because it wasn’t with them in mind. It was with white folks in line,

[00:38:25.22] spk_1:
right? Right. Okay. Yeah, we could We could certainly go hours on that. Yeah. Um, all right. I’m yeah, and I don’t And so I mentioned, you know, highlighting and exacerbating. I Yeah, I think when When the dust settles and we look at disparities in outcomes, we’re gonna find immigrants and indigenous folks disproportionately impacted in terms of, uh, well, yeah, the institutional racism that you’re you’re bringing out and just in terms of the more surface store things that that, you know, like health care and help get unemployment lost jobs. And I mean from I have a small business. And so I see the way those that loan program is, at least in these opening weeks of it or whether I should say we’re recording on according on Tuesday, April 21st and so far, the opening program the opening, uh, indications around the S B A. Programs are that, you know, big businesses air getting it, yes, and most likely predominantly wiped. Run. Yeah, and and small businesses that I think Congress intended it to help or are falling short. At least that’s yeah, that’s what’s happening in this first tranche of 250 billion. We’ll see what happens when there’s the absolutely next the next level, but I’m sure you’re right. You know, the because the system is rigged against and built in favor of Yeah,

[00:38:26.63] spk_4:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:38:28.16] spk_5:
yeah, yeah. All right.

[00:38:30.62] spk_3:

[00:38:32.02] spk_1:
so we’ve been 20 minutes already, and we haven’t even gotten to only about it away. About the time you gotta you gotta host that. I wanted to talk about the pandemic in these terms

[00:38:42.27] spk_4:
or yeah,

[00:39:16.89] spk_1:
I haven’t done anything, but also so thank you. Yeah, but don’t worry about the time that you got a lackluster host to deal with. It’s my my shortcoming. Um all right, let’s talk some. Let’s talk about in 10. Yeah. Um What? Ah, well, all right. Before we get into the details of in 10 how do you how? Open someone start this conversation in their own organization? Yeah, I feel like it’s systemically institutionally. Wait, Run. Well, that would be out. They wouldn’t feel it. That would be obvious. But wait, wait, wait. Policies. Yeah. Um, how did they kick off this conversation?

[00:39:23.82] spk_4:
You know, tony, that’s a really great question, too. And there’s a variety of ways to bring it up. Teoh, I just got done reading a really good book. Actually, that Amy shared with me. Um, about how Teoh Stopgap

[00:39:38.86] spk_1:
award and simple words are social media and technology contributor here on non profit radio. Okay, just for the for the 45 people out of the 13,000 who may not know who any simple

[00:42:00.09] spk_4:
Yes, She gave me a book about institutionalized racism and institutionalized bias on how that manifests itself in the workplace and more importantly, what you can do about it. So it’s one thing toe like, recognize it and be like, This is wrong. And this is happening. Another thing to start, um, to start bringing it up within your organization is at the root of your question is you know, what can you do? And there’s a variety of things that you do. I think the first thing that comes to mind, um, that I read in this book was the book. It’s called Recognizing Institutional bias. Um, I may have to, like, follow back up with you. I know it’s something like that, but I breathe through it, um, so I’ll I’ll give you the title of it later. Um, but she um But this book talks about, you know, it’s one thing. Excuse me to go about it as an individual, but it is. I mean, it’s kind of like one of those things where safety in numbers and so being able tohave an ally or someone within the organization that you can also push this work or were, too. So it means asking some hard questions, and it means asking some hard questions of yourself as well to. And I think that’s the key point. Um, as well is realizing that, you know, we all have implicit, um, biases that we have in our head. Um, you know, when we think of cats, we think of cats, as you know, very. You know, Castile. They kind of take care of themselves. Some cats aren’t like that, though, you know, And so I think going into it, we have to really check those ideas about certain people, people from communities that have been informed, those implicit biases. We have to make sure that we’re good with ourselves or not even that we’re good with them and that we’ve reconciled them but that were aware of. So I think that was a really big take away point for me. Um, you know I’m 1/2 black man. I’m a Navajo man. Um, I have implicit bias, you know, everyone does. And so I think being able to understand that before pushing this work is really key to this. You have to really kind of strip yourself bare and understand that, um in order to push this work forward, you’re going to have to do some self work as well.

[00:42:17.87] spk_1:
Implicit biases. Is that not the same as stereotypes?

[00:42:20.30] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Some people call stereotypes. Yeah,

[00:42:24.77] spk_1:
you gotta You gotta be conscious of your own stereotypes.

[00:42:58.50] spk_4:
Exactly. We don’t politicize. Yeah. And sometimes those stereotypes are very obvious to you. You you think about them. But also, there are some that are very deep within your subconscious that come out without knowing, too. And so then it’s one of those things where you start. You have to be reflective and think, Gosh, where is this coming from? Where is the stock coming from? And where is this belief coming from? And really dig down deep into it. Um, I think another thing to that, um, when you push this type of work forward or are start to prioritize this work you have to think about you and I were talking about this earlier is, you know, the climate of the organization. Um And where in what? In the environment of the organization, some organizations have their heels in the ground, and I have experienced organizations like that where their heels air in the ground and they’re like, we have a D I committee that meets once a month and that’s it. Check box checked. We’re done with it. We don’t have to do anymore work. We don’t have Teoh, you know, examine the policies and practices in the environment that we put forward with an organization. So that’s a non starter for a lot of people. And in those

[00:43:37.63] spk_1:
organisms, on top of that r R D I committee, it has black black people in it. Yeah, so we’ve We were an equitable organization. Exactly to blacks on our equity committee.

[00:46:01.08] spk_4:
Exactly. And so I think those are things that I have experienced those there is half organizations where, you know, that’s the thing we call tokenism within. Let I wouldn’t even say within the d I world. That’s just tokenism, period with in whatever world you want to live in. And so that’s That’s a tokenism thing. And sadly, I’ve fallen victim to that in my earlier years of, you know, when I was a young professional of, you know, really being eager and wanting to please white leadership, Um, and realizing that I wasn’t pushing forward d I work. I was not contributing to it, but I was a victim of it. Um, and it was a system much larger than the the actual work that I was putting forward, and it was really sad, and I had to remove myself from those situations and those token izing situations. There was once a month d I meetings where I was that the token eyes per person of color that was having to bear my soul about some very, very deep and emotional topics. And so I think a lot of times, you know, you have to as a person who’s pushing this forward specifically, and I’m you know, I say this directly to people of color and organizations and non profit organizations who are the one to, you know, third person of color in the organization. I mean that that’s a big, big hill to climb to, and it’s not insurmountable. But what I will say is, you know, you have to be able to check in with yourself as a person of color and as a, um, as a professional of color, Um, be a black being Beit, indigenous, being Asian, um, agent. And so I just think that you have to check in with that because and be very hyper vigilant and aware that, um, some folks may want to token eyes you in a way and being ableto have, um, practices and things in your back pocket, too. Disrupt knows those policies and procedures and practices and then either move forward or remove yourself from the situation.

[00:46:09.88] spk_1:
Checking in with yourself means, like the official question. Is this even worth doing at this organization?

[00:46:11.41] spk_4:
Right. And maybe

[00:46:12.44] spk_1:
Do I have any ally or there are other potential allies? Okay, go to potential allies, and they turned out not to be allies. Is it even worth doing in this organization like you say, you remove yourself, Go elsewhere?

[00:47:29.58] spk_4:
Yeah, and it because. And that’s really sad, too, because I think a lot of us in the nonprofit world are, um, you know, we are so passionate about the work that we dio We wanna, you know, we kind of pride ourselves. And I did this for a very long time when I worked in use development. You pride yourself on the number of hours that you work. You pride yourself on working overtime. You pride yourself on for the bare minimum, you do that. And then you have larger organizations that are typically white Run. That’s hold you hostage to that belief. And that’s really and that was I mean, I heard that maybe two or three years ago, someone said it much more beautifully than I just did. But on I wish I get credit them, but I forget who it was, but it really is those, I mean, and that’s a very big systemic, um, problem within the nonprofit world is that, you know, a lot of times white leadership will hold those those middle level, middle level, direct service middle management folks. Um, be it you know, people of color or not to their own jobs. To that to that own passion. I

[00:48:03.03] spk_1:
thought you loved our work. Exactly. We asked you when you came here three years ago. What moved without the work and, you know, using that work against them in some fashion time for our last break turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard even through the Corona virus cacophony. They know exactly what to do to make it happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for racial equity, D I? In fact, this runs long because it’s a good conversation with Tristan that I did not want to stop. The total show is roughly 75 minutes,

[00:48:15.97] spk_4:
and it’s like the byline of you know, non profit works. Sometimes, sadly, is like we’re not in this for the paycheck, you know,

[00:48:23.25] spk_1:
Passion, passion, shaming.

[00:50:25.86] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so I mean, and so when you put you take that in and of itself, within the nonprofit world, and then you layer on a racial inequity that’s like also, you know, people are stuck folks of color. Black folks are stuck with it between a rock and a hard place within their job. They want to make money toe like live to pay their bills. They want to have a job to do those things. Yet they’re stuck in an organization that is holding them hostage to the work that they’re doing, and so that that’s something that I think is I went off on a tangent. But I also think that you have to be very aware is this Is this organization ready for this? Is this organization really about this work? Because it’s gonna strip a lot of things bare for the organization that they may not like, you know, And that made that push against that culture dominate that white culture, dominant belief and systems that have built the organization toe what it is today. So, for example, it means, you know, how are we working? Are we working every single meeting toe have some sort of end results? Um, you know where we come to a conclusion at the end of every meeting? That’s white, dominant culture in and of itself. Sometimes we have meetings that don’t have a big or clear and result, and we need to be okay with that. Um and so I think about that. And I think about my past, you know, roles that I have held in use development and how many times I’ve been in a meeting where it’s like we have to get X and Y and Z done by the time. But in two hours we have to pound out a budget in two hours on DSO. I think being able to work, and I’m not saying that like and 10 is one of those, you know, shining places on the hill. But I love it here because Amy gives us the space and latitude to sometimes not have toe have meetings that maybe we didn’t come to a clear conclusion or that there’s not an expectation that we have a solid, you know, um, a solid solution that we come out of

[00:50:31.72] spk_1:
their outcome by end of me and meetings or just a microcosm of the total work, that because the work is constantly a journey absolutist repeatedly, you know, it’s not done at the end of a year or 18 months. And, you know, like you were saying different example though, you know, check, we’ve done our We’ve done our diversity work

[00:50:50.11] spk_4:
right right

[00:51:06.97] spk_1:
now. Now, we just banned the committee or the committee Lance to be six months every six months or something like that. Yes, the meeting is just a microcosm of the of the overall structure and progress and journey you say in the description of the program, then 10 journey. It’s never It’s not really never completed.

[00:51:15.12] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s never done. And it definitely doesn’t live solely with me. And I think this is the one thing that I particularly like, Um, in this this role that I’m in within 10 and working so closely with Amy with D I work is the idea that she and I are a team, um, working towards this, I think a lot of times and organizations, they token eyes, a person of color, and they’re like, Oh, you’re the equity person. You’re the equity director. You’re the X, y and Z, which is fine. It’s great. I’m all for that. But a lot of times there are situations where or organizations that put it all on that person. And they’re like

[00:51:52.79] spk_1:
the person has no with no authority, exact lots of accountability, but no authority,

[00:53:04.39] spk_4:
right? And so what I really like and appreciate is that Amy pushes me, and I pushed back on things that we’re working towards and, um You know, I say I pushed back, but also she and Ira will learn personality anyway, So a lot of times, um, she’ll peek around the corner from our office when we when we worked in offices. Um, you know, and be like I was thinking something like, Oh, my gosh, I was just thinking that. So I think it also helps be specifically with her. And I really are, um our relationship is that she and I are just very similar. Um, and, um, I think that does help. But I also appreciate her as a leader being able Teoh ask questions and prioritized racial equity not only when she’s thinking about D I stuff, but when she’s thinking about the budget. When she’s thinking about NTC when she’s thinking about, um, you know, all of our I t endeavours, all of our community pieces. Um, I appreciate that because that says to me as a person of color and more importantly, a someone who’s, um, you know, a ah person who’s working for is that Oh, this person’s in it for riel. Yeah, Amy talks. The talk walks the walk, and again, it’s not toe like, you know, game points with a Me, too. Because for that you

[00:53:18.07] spk_2:
were you making

[00:53:18.66] spk_1:
the point of the importance of leadership that has to be leadership support by in, you know, whatever it’s called or else you are, Well, not the person committee or the entire endeavor is just gonna be, you know, without without teeth,

[00:54:48.24] spk_4:
right? Yeah. And so that’s what I appreciate her as a leader, even though I’m the person that has the role that pushes it forward and stewards that she’s right there with me helping me and asking those questions on an executive level and on a board level two and prioritizing those questions. And so that’s something that I really appreciate as an employee, but also separately from that, like as a person of color, as an indigenous man, as a black man. I appreciate those things, Um, and so it’s it’s kind of 11 of those situations where, you know, talk is cheap, you know? And, um, you know, she walks the walk, and I really appreciate that. I’ve, you know, worked with a lot of white leadership in past organizations that I worked in, where they talked to talk. They love a good. You know, feel good session about D I stroking their own egos and all the things. But when it comes, it comes down to it when there are policies that they’re pushing forward and meetings that are directly, you know, working against racial equity, that’s not it, you know? And so those are examples that I think of where I’m like. Gosh, I wish I would have spoken up. Um, but but, you know, within 10 I don’t feel that. And that’s something that I I’m gonna hold on to it and hold onto it tight, because I know that this is a good thing. And I’m really, um, you know, glad and blessed to work on a place that prioritizes those things.

[00:55:13.17] spk_1:
Can you tell a story of an example of something that on its surface is not inequitable by? Maybe you pointed it out, Or if not, use something. It became obvious that it is inequitable. Yeah, you brought it to the organization and a chain jumping

[00:57:48.23] spk_4:
right. So I’ll give an example, and it doesn’t really point out a specific person, but it points out, Is Berries easy thing that no one had really found it within the organization within our organization. I know a lot of people think, Oh, wow. It’s like this multi tiered, you know, organization with lots of people. There’s only 15 of us, so, I mean, the way we work is very collaborative anyway. And so, um, once we have a job, sport where folks immunity are able to post open positions on the community s so a lot of times it’s organizations that will want to post a open position that they have on for the longest time, we didn’t, um we as an organization didn’t have, um, a requirement for salary. So when people when there was a salary field for organizations to put in, um, you know what? How much this person was going toe radio? Absolutely. They leave a blank, right? D o e dependent upon experience. Um, and if you look at that, too, seems pretty like, oh, standard. We see it all the time with, like, you know, you know, we go on linked and we go on any sort of jobs board site. Yeah, They probably don’t, you know, put the salary, and a lot of times it’s dio we and, um I I myself was like I don’t see like why, you know, there’s like an issue with that, too. Until it was pointed out that, like, you know, this was This is a practice that is steeped in, um, whiteness and its steeped in patriarchal, the patriarchy. And so why do Why do organisations not do that? I don’t know. I can’t say that for each and every other word Is that what I can say is that when organizations don’t put a salary for a job or put d o e um, that disproportionately effects women and people of color. Um, because it contributes Teoh. And there have been studies that show that when it’s when there’s no salary, it discourages people of color. Don’t feel like they are, um, you know, I don’t want to speak for for all people of color, but there have been studies that have shown that, you know, it contributes to that pay gap. That gender pay gap

[00:57:59.03] spk_1:
okay, enables that’s what I thought. It enables disparities in pay

[00:58:00.60] spk_4:
exactly and so

[00:58:02.32] spk_1:
committed because you don’t have to commit in writing exact ranges 1 25 to

[00:58:57.62] spk_4:
one solidity on their maybe organizations out there that are like, Oh, this is a black woman that’s applying for this job. I’m going toe put my I’m gonna offer this job to this person on the lower end of that range, and that’s not fair, Um or, you know, because I didn’t put post my salary. I’m gonna lowball this this this job offer and that’s not fair as well to we want organizations that are going to put or post positions or job roles on our website to be up front with everything, too. We want to make sure that our community members have all the information that they have to make an informed decision about their future job. Future A future benefits so they can make the most educated decision on whether they want to join this organization or not. Do you

[00:59:02.44] spk_1:
know what’s what’s required for

[00:59:12.82] spk_4:
that salary? Yes, so right now it is required. That’s the only thing it so you can’t post a job of job opening without having a salary.

[00:59:15.53] spk_1:
OK, so array is arranged, Arranges acceptable,

[00:59:18.46] spk_4:
I believe, arranges acceptable. I

[00:59:42.21] spk_1:
think that’s okay that someone is coming being offered at the lower end of that range, and they feel their experience marriage something higher? Um, then they can brother on conclusion that this may very well be racial or gender based or some other some other classifications based beyond their experience. You could draw that. You can draw that conclusion for yourself. If you’re being offered the low end of that salary. Radio

[00:59:50.07] spk_4:
have some very badly for that with the rains that that was going, going it, Teoh.

[00:59:53.03] spk_1:
Otherwise, your you’ve got no information whatsoever.

[00:59:55.44] spk_4:
Absolutely. And so you’re like I don’t know what. And so a lot of times there’s just weird tactic that people do. It’s like, What do you think you should be paid? And it’s like, you know, don’t turn that on its head. You know exactly what this job is worth. Please put it out there so everyone is aware.

[01:00:12.08] spk_1:
Okay, My own conclusion,

[01:00:57.91] spk_4:
though, anyway, so we require that now, and that’s something that we all came together and talked about. I mean, I can’t say who I can’t remember who, like specifically brought it up as something a za point. But it was such an easy fix. Such an easy fix. And, you know, I’ve been you know, I keep on talking about past organizations I’ve been with, but, um, I’ve been in organizations where it’s like an easy fix, but it took three months to implement. It took a meeting une email thread, you know, Ah, heart to heart meeting about how this was. You know, sometimes if it’s easy just implemented, and this was one of those things that you know, start to finish, maybe took ah, week a week and 1/2 to get it all running a

[01:01:01.53] spk_1:
programming is all of a sudden it’s a required field when it wasn’t required before.

[01:01:05.85] spk_4:
I think things are red

[01:01:06.96] spk_1:
asterisk and has to be programmed in the back end that you can’t submit your form without that field being

[01:01:23.71] spk_4:
feel that there’s a there’s low hanging fruit that sometimes exists in an organization that no one’s really sat and looked at and been like, Why are we doing this? How can we do this differently? That’s in a more equitable way in an equitable, equitable, more former fashion. And I think you know, I also say that, you know, I bring up these this anecdotes just because, you know, I mean, there are a lot of other things that we’ve done that. Have? Really?

[01:01:39.11] spk_1:
Yeah. That’s a That’s a great one.

[01:01:40.66] spk_4:
Because lately that

[01:02:19.54] spk_1:
innocuous on its face, it’s completely innocuous. Leave it blank if you want. Your Blanco are based on experience. It sounds perfectly. We’re doing that that way for generations. Based on your experience, you’ll get big. But now it’s locked in. You know what? We’re being offered a salary at the low end, and you can draw your own conclusion that why that might be exactly okay and no longer enabling. All right, Um, that’s a great story. Yeah, Um I mean, yeah, there’s so much we can talk about. Yeah. You mentioned in the description how racism manifests differently. A different levels of an organization.

[01:02:23.60] spk_7:

[01:02:24.50] spk_1:
First, a little bit.

[01:03:03.42] spk_4:
Yeah. So great question. I have, um, the ah, you know, opportunity and the privilege to serve on a, um A It’s an advisory. It’s the Committee on Racial on Racial Equity for, um, the it’s called Organ Metro. So it’s Thea Thea area local regional government that it’s, I believe, spans three, if not four counties in the Portland Metro area. So it’s a governing govern form of government that overlooks all four of us

[01:03:06.10] spk_1:
have to show off that I know Portland is in Multnomah County.

[01:03:09.04] spk_4:
Yes, I have to show. I

[01:03:10.54] spk_1:
just have to marry. Let’s have to show that off. That completely

[01:07:16.58] spk_4:
how I, um seven. It’s very much like a, uh it’s very much like a, um you know, council, where there’s council members that represent each district. And there’s also a c 00 that runs the entire organisation and government. Um, So, um, I sit on a, um on a committee that is tasked with making sure that racial equity is something that that governing body prioritizes and also is taking into consideration when it’s pushing or advocating for anything. So all that to say is that we had an opportunity Teoh to touch base with some leaders, potential leaders within this, this governing body. And, um, I think one of the questions that came to the top and that I asked you because it kind of goes back to your question of like, um, racial inequity manifests itself in very different ways on. And so if you’re a you know, a CEO of an organization, um and you’re like, yes, I’m about d I work. I live in. I breathe it yada yada. I do all of it on and I’m really passionate about it. Yet you’re a white person, and then you have to, you know, foreign partnerships with other area organizations, and they’re all white as well to what happens when you get into a room or you’re having to have big, you know, decision making conversations and everyone and there is white. Um, and, um and people in there are saying things that aren’t racially equitable. Um, and you’re sitting there in your belief that I believe I believe d I work. I know that it’s there, but the gravity of all these other people agreeing with this false, you know, or agreeing with this, you know, racially an equitable belief. You’re gonna have to push against that in that scary right to go against the grain of like, the larger group on. And so I I ask that because you know, our I just I bring that up because I think the phrase that comes most to mind to me is someone said it to me and I forget why read Reddit? Orde said it. But it’s always stuck with me as you move up within an organization, racial inequity on racism becomes more sophisticated, so it’s much, much easier to detect. Unlike a direct service, rubber hits the road level as you get to that C suite level. You know of an organization, it becomes more nuanced. It becomes mawr about tokenism. It becomes more about how you’re playing folks of color against each other or not even talking about it at all. Um, so I think that’s something that I’ve, you know, experienced in scene, you know, on a direct service level. When I first started right out of college, you know, when I was working for direct service, the the direct service staff of Color, the black folks, we’re always the ones who got, you know, assigned to jobs or assigned the locations that were less than favorable. And so, um, you know, it’s pretty straightforward. And then, you know, as we moved up within the organization, we realized that there was a token izing thing going on at the middle middle management level. And so, you know, I think that’s just one thing that it manifest in in very different ways, you know, in different organizations, but also across different levels To one level of, you know, racism may look, you know, one middle level of racism may look completely different at one organization that it doesn’t the other two. And so that’s why it’s, like a very sinister thing. Um, Teoh to be able to, you know, figure out for an organization.

[01:07:39.98] spk_1:
Um, let’s see, where can we go and sort of wrap up? Um, What you tell me you want? Oh, let’s bring it back down toe back to in 10. Because they were supposed to have been, but I let I wandered. Um um, deliberately So what do you want? What you want to share about? Sort of in closing in about intense journey, The work, the work that remains

[01:09:03.37] spk_4:
Yeah. Go. Absolutely. I love that. You said the work that remains cause there’s always work that remains. I don’t want anyone. I certainly don’t want to put on any, um, you know, false pretenses that we are. We’re there as an organization. We have arrived. We’re not. We have There’s always work that needs to. That has remained. That is remaining. And so I think that’s where I would start is that we have we’re on our own journey. We are, um, you know, moving forward intentionally and with respect to make sure that we are covering all of our departments and making sure that, you know, everyone is a steward of this d I work and making sure that it permeates every corner of our our organization. So that’s where I would start. I think you know, if folks are out there that are wanting to or your I mean, I specifically I speak Teoh, um, you know, CEOs, executive directors of organizations that are white. Um, this is the best time to push this forward. And it’s going Teoh not be easy. That’s

[01:09:10.83] spk_1:
what he said is the best time.

[01:12:27.75] spk_4:
It’s the best time because, you know, this is a time where people are, you know, there are country is and I don’t want to get you know too far into the political part of things. But like, you know, there’s a lot going on in our country to and, um, non profits are, you know, specifically smaller grassroots roots nonprofits are, um, you know, suffering A lot of times, a smaller grassroots non profits were run by people of color, so you know, I think in the spirit of non profit, it’s incumbent upon, you know, leadership to make sure that they’re helping. Not only there constituents, their employees, but also other nonprofits. So what does that mean for those CEOs or executive directors? This is the time, you know. And again I say that not in like, ooh, the stars have aligned these air that this is the time every time is a good time, You know what I mean? There’s no bad time to do this. This had this work has to be done. Um and so I would say that, you know, it’s it’s something that will pay off for years to come to. You’re going tohave employees when you start to prioritize, you know, d I work and not only within, like the D I department, but also just d. I work across your organization across departments and start to look critically how you can change and morph and transform into. I’m an anti racist organisation. You’re going to realize that a Not only are you a happier person be your employees are happy to be there and happy to do work, because inherently, when you a drew racial inequity. You’re addressing a lot of other inequities as well. You’re addressing, you know, gender inequity. You’re addressing LGBT Q. I A plus in equity as well. Those things will come in that makes employees happier. And what does that do that starts informing how you interact with your employees? Not only its not only informs it, but it starts to shape the things that you hold near and dear, both individually and as an organization, and your employees and staff will see that they will see that and they will want to stay. And that Matt effects. You know, if for those data folks out there, you know, staff retention, you have folks that are going to stay for the long haul because they believe in the work that you dio and what happens, you know. I mean, a lot of people think, you know, in in organizations or in business, you know, the customer is always right. Customer’s always right customer first, you know, or your that your communities that you’re serving our first and yes, that’s right. And there’s a grain of truth in that. However, you can’t serve your customers or your um, your the communities in which you’re serving or living in. If your employees aren’t served first and aren’t being prioritized, it’s kind of like, ah, flip of mindset that you have to dio So that would be my encouragement. And that would be my, um my you know, last piece that I would end on Is that like, you know, this is the time to do it, you know, because you know it. At the end of the day, it helps serve your organization to make sure organization stronger, and it makes your employees stronger. And it makes the relationships that you have with your employees stronger. Likewise that didn’t that, then goes into your, you know, direct service groups. You know, your communities that you’re living within. It makes your connection in your relationships more sincere and more bonded.

[01:12:51.55] spk_1:
Tristin pen, community engagement and Equity manager at N 10 s Justin, Thanks so much.

[01:12:58.14] spk_4:
Thank you so much. I hope I made sense. Thank

[01:13:51.35] spk_1:
you very much. You made a lot of sense Last sense and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 ntc remember, were sponsored at the conference by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us next week. Privacy. Best practices. I told you it was coming. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo.

[01:14:41.79] spk_0:
A creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. I did the post production. How did I do? Let me know. Sam Liebowitz managed to stream show Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots non next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for October 23, 2015: Diversity In Your Office & .ngo

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Fields Jackson: Diversity In Your Office

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Fields Jackson is editor of “Racing Toward Diversity Magazine.” We’ll talk about the business reasons for having a diverse workplace. (Originally aired on March 28, 2014)




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We’re explaining the new top level domain–and its affiliated community–for nonprofits throughout  the world. Plus, a primer on how domains are managed by ICANN. I learned a lot! My teachers are Glen McKnight, secretariat of NARALO (it represents you!); Andrew Mack, principal of AMGlobal Consulting; and Evan Leibovitch, global vice chair of the At Large Advisory Committee of ICANN. (Originally aired on April 18, 2014 and recorded at the Nonprofit Technology Conference, hosted by NTEN.)


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I grow a mesen ca mama if it’s spread that you missed today’s show diversity in your office fields. Jackson is editor of racing toward diversity magazine. We talk about the business reasons for having a diverse workplace that originally aired on march twenty eighth, twenty fourteen and dot ngo, we’re explaining the new top level domain and its affiliated community for non-profits throughout the world. Plus ah primer on how domains are managed by icann. I learned a lot. My teachers are glenn mcknight, andrew mac and evan leibovich on tony’s take two thank you, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com here is field jackson with diversity in your office. I’m very pleased to welcome fields jackson to the show. He is founder and ceo of racing toward diversity magazine buy-in adjunct professor at chicago state university, teaching entrepreneurial sales and marketing. He was recently named by diversity best practices as one of the five diversity thought leaders you should be following on twitter on twitter, he’s at flea jack that’s f l e jack, please. Jack feels jackson. Welcome to the show. Only at the pleasure of the text of the well it’s introduction. I call an introduction on ad, but yeah. I mean, you have good things going on. I want to share them with with everybody. Thank you, tony. My pleasure. As always. You have a little background in nascar that’s. Kind of interesting field. You have to have that’s, actually. How the magazine got started. What do you know? Actually, about about ten. About fifteen years ago, i was a part owner of a nascar team. And yes, that’s the cars that go round and round and stop for gas. And, uh, we were down in north carolina where i live. Uh, we were running for about three years. It was the bush grand national. Now, it’s, i think the nationwide series, but dr pepper was our sponsor. Uh, lost a ton of money, however, uh, it started my diversity durney as we were the first minority team tio breaking the nascar in over twenty five years. Yeah, nascar is not particularly diverse. No, it’s. Not so as you could imagine would lead to very interesting cocktail conversations. Yeah, around around what i was doing and, you know where i was doing it, but like any place, you know, nascar’s got some issues about diversity there, but again, one of things that tell people we always had a great time at the nascar tracks. I met some great people, like, you know, jeff gordon, the late dale earnhardt, so just met him wonderful people, but again, you know, with their diversity and the issues they had, uh, tell people even even in those environments, um, there’s always people doing great stuff. So even in a if that and i didn’t consider it a bad environment or tough environment, but even in tough environments, there are people that are doing the right thing. They’re people that are that are have a passion about making change, so we we tend to focus on the folks that are doing it the right way as opposed to throwing everybody under the bus. Yeah, you’re focusing on the positive, and you’re pretty explicit that if diversity of cultural diversity is not an interest to you, then that’s ok, right, that’s fine, i mean, it’s, not for everybody on dh there, there, folks, that, you know, diversity represents something that they’re totally against and then understand that. But for those folks that believed there’s diversity is not there is another way forward. Those are the folks that we’d like to have a conversation with. Okay, so the diversity doesn’t mean everybody’s got agree or love each other or hug or kiss, but diversity is, you know, respecting ideas and thoughts and seeing things differently, and sometimes when you, when you approach it that way, tony, you actually not that you completely changed what you actually see another way to do things which actually create creativity and expansion. And a lot of we think positive things. Um what? Why is there some discomfort around the diversity discussion? I think it’s it’s a fear of the unknown. You know, it’s uh uh, it’s like my friends, my friends are my friends because they’re my friends that we all like each other. We get along. I probably don’t learn a lot from my friends if that makes it. What do you mean they’re? I think i know what you want. You know what? Their friends, because we think a lot, yeah, like, like, i got to go to the same movies or our families enjoy the same thing, so, you know, i’m usually, you know, people are friends because we share similar interests it’s when you get into places where there is not the shared interest and background, are background or or culture or what we know, whatever that that variable is, yeah, there’s a natural fear that, um, you know, do i share the same thoughts or or culture or or beliefs? So again, it’s natural, you know, i’m not going to talk as much, i’ll be, i’ll be shy, i won’t offer any opinions, but that’s where i think leadership come in because, you know, if you’re building a business and once you get beyond and tony way, i see it once you get beyond yourself, you know, i’m a pretty good listener to me, it was just me, yeah, i’m i’m probably going to agree with everything, right? So the second i get beyond me that you entered the world of diversity, um, you know, so unless you know and the more people you get the mohr, you’re just going to expand the bubble so having that expansion, how do you communicate how to communicate which direction you’re going, how to communicate the idea of how to communicate, how you’re going to reach new new profit centres? How you going to reach new non-profit how do you communicate that that’s where that cultural conversation comes in, where it doesn’t? And this is where i think people get hung up doesn’t have to be comfortable. It’s it’s you’re trying to communicate an idea, and once people understand that you’re not doing it in a hostile manner, you’re genuinely asking questions because you don’t know. And now the explanation becomes okay, this is why i do this that’s why i say this is why i think this a cup of coffee is going to appeal to this group that’s where diversity comes in and that’s what we think the magic happens and the questions being asked in both directions are valuable mean, we should be we should be asking people seeking people were going to challenge our beliefs. Well, if it comes down to tonight and i call it the i think the wizard of oz is like the greatest management movie ever. Yeah, um, you had ah, young woman who had, you know, put together a management team on the run. Right? So she basically, you know, is going to grab a couple of people that, you know, what do you got what’s in it for me and explains on the run, they find out that we got to go see this wizard, so they put together this quick management team there there got some task and objectives and obstacles they’ve got to get to, but they finally get to the wizard and they asked the question and, like, anything, you know, it’s like, how dare you? So it sort when people after questions that that’s, the entry point that’s, the gateway and most people, you know, it’s well, i explained it. How dare you ask that question and that’s where you know the line, start to come up in the you know? Well, you know that’s where the sort of like the barriers and the bridges get burned, but that’s that’s the entry point you’re asking a question and it’s, a lot of people don’t even have the courage to dafs that’s the thing most people, you know, everybody understand and most people won’t, but there is the one you know, i could you go over part two again, and you get your head ripped off. Well, i’m not gonna get out of the question. Um, i didn’t agree with what went on, so, you know, because i don’t agree, you know how how willingly am i goingto take on this task? Because i don’t understand, i don’t know what’s going on and that’s where i think things break them. We have we have a couple minutes before we take our first break. Tell us about the racing toward diversity magazine. Rachel rachel, university magazine is a quarterly publication. We focus on the business case for diversity to your point tell me if, uh, if you don’t believe in diversity, we don’t think you’re a bad person, we don’t think that you know that if you don’t believe in it, you don’t believe in it just like anything else. But if you do believe in diversity, um, and you’re looking for opinions of facts or are different ways of looking at things, we want to have those stories that offer unique ways of people and how they handled different situations and you deal with major, you cover major brands there. The issue you showed me was i saw an article with about coca cola, coca cola, att and t uh, hewlett packard del um sid xo, toyota, we’ve got some major brands uh, and we’ve got major brands that are doing a phenomenal global work around diversity, so we focus on them because not only are they doing work around their corporation, um, but as you can imagine, they’ve got internal issues with women’s affairs, they’ve got supplier diversity efforts, they have just a number of efforts that make up this corporation, and are they doing everything perfectly right? No, but they’re they’re pushing the envelope where they’re actually become an example of how ah, global corporation can navigate and ever changing world, and they see diversity as business case that helps them navigate that world. So we we use them as examples to kind of show others that may be struggling in certain areas. Well, you know, you don’t have to figure it out, but you know what? Here’s here’s a senior v p of finance that’s in toyota that you know you may want to reach out to if you’re struggling with something, so we try to provide those examples of of best practices that people can now sort of model themselves after all, right? We have to go out for a couple minutes, fields jackson, of course i’m going to keep talking about diversity, we’re goingto learn from some of these companies. What is the business case we’ve been talking around it? What is that business case and of course, live listener love hang in there, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way, way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent feels jackson, what is this business case for diversity that we’ve been talking about? Uh, tony, we think it’s pretty simple, uh, business case for diversity, i think, started teo really expand when a small business owner named henry ford started a car company and he told his customers, but, uh, you can have any model t as long as it’s black it is custom, his competitors came up with different color, so i think they made mr ford sort of rethink his business strategy. So we look at anyone that’s in business on how many businesses do you go into, like a steak steak shop, steakhouse, and they’ve got one steak on the menu and just one steak, or you go into an ice cream shop and they’ve got they’ve got one one flavor of ice cream, so typically it’s the it’s, the variety of the flavors of the colors that attracts and keeps us with customers. And you’ve got those flavours because you’re looking to get a wider variety of customers that support your business. So the business case, i think, is all around us just when we start to talk about people. That people tend, teo now see that whole conversation completely differently, and we we don’t know why. Uh, we believe that if you’ve got a product and you’ve got, ah wide variety of people that enjoy that that’s going to be a healthy a support network for your business, as opposed to there’s one, you’ve got one customer that you’re relying on them. We think that’s a dangerous place to be for anyone, for non-profit for a corporation, you know, for for anything that that that that reliance on one. So just like the diversification of your portfolio that the financial people talk about, we believe the same holds true about that diverse business. Ditigal and the nonprofit sector employee’s roughly ten percent of our nation’s nongovernment, employee’s employee workforce, that’s, that’s a pretty large amount of people it’s between between ten and eleven million working in working in r one point two to one point four million non-profits depending on how you depending on how you count, what what is part of a let’s talk through what a diversity strategy looks like for a non-profit so from a from a non-profit standpoint, um, you know, if you’ve got a service, you’re doing something. Would you deny that to someone that or a culture or community that desperately needed? What’d you just say, well, no, we just serve one group i think part of the charters are we’re going, we’re going to serve and we’re going to eradicate or we’re going to we’re going to help this disease or cure or whatever it is. So the fact that you can get tome or more people, we see that as a good thing for everyone. So i’ma non-profit and i’m trying to hyre a more diverse workforce so that it reflects the the community that i’m serving. How do i? But the people who apply for my jobs only looked like me on only talk like me, and they’re all white and and male. How do i change that? How do i change that applicant pool so that i can get more diversity in it? What you would have to change because everybody looked like you. You know what, what’s the chain again? You know, maybe maybe somebody goes out and learn spanish, i don’t, but if every day was like you what’s the chance that that pool’s going to be even aware of what you’re doing so part of that it is now doing that that uncomfortable questions, you know, we’ve looked at our numbers, and it appears that we’ve got no one from this segment of the population here. All right, i got uncomfortable. Why is that now? Everything? Well, we we sent fliers. Okay, i know we did, but you know what? I’m just looking at the numbers. I’m just asking a question, folks, i’ve got nobody. So is there anyone that knows someone in from that community? But yeah, you know, one of the guys go see what your mind, you know, having him a lot of survey force. Would you mind? You know, you know what he would answer a couple questions about. You know what he even thinks you do. And part of that is now that uncomfortable question, you know? You know, mr jones, do you do you know what i do every time when your neighbor do you know what i do every day? No, i have no, um, you know, i do this and either he recoils in horror or he goes, wow, my grandmother has that, um, zoho we’re struggling. Fuck. Somebody to help fix it. Well, i’m telling you, we have a problem because we can’t seem to communicate to your grandmother. Do you volunteer? So again, it’s part of that conversation and nothing happens overnight. Tony, you know that it’s not overnight, but it’s part of that conversation where now you know the outreaches. Now, mr jones shows up at one of your meetings and he says, well, you know what? I could translate that for you because i’m going to bring this to a church where i know fifty, people would desperately need that and that’s that’s part of that, you know, looking at your numbers, who were serving we how can we do better and that’s an internal look that says, okay, are you comfortable with the hundred people in the room? Are you comfortable if you’re not, and you’re trying to expand our there another hundred that looked just like them? Or are there one hundred others that now i would need the service? We just don’t know how to communicate and get back aboard. So to answer your question, it’s part of that, that leadership that’s going a sort of force this uncomfortable conversation around. Getting whatever you do, some or more people that could that could use it or need it and that one okay, let’s move from employment to thinking about the people who supply your vendors, your suppliers, should we be asking about their diversity policies and looking for diversity among them as well? Absolutely. And part of that is when you look at diverse suppliers, they’re actually looking at businesses that are that are providing a good service to there customers. Um, cos that look at it that way, a tremendous amount of industry knowledge come from your supplies. Um, your suppliers, if they’re supplying you, they might be supplying fifty other stores that looked like you. So in conversations with suppliers, if you’ve got that type of relationship, their goal is to supply you more not to supply you left some most. Um, i don’t know you could, you know, sometimes, but if they want to do more than that, then what could we be doing better? That’s that uncomfortable conversation that, you know, if you don’t think you know it all, you come in here every day and you drop off these towels. What could we be doing that? Well, i’m glad you asked mr jackson, you know, the company called street, they do this really? On what what result? Won’t you take a ride with me to go over and then there’s a line wrapped around the building? Wow. Um now the question is, what are we doing that or can we do that? Or is there somebody there that’s providing a skill set or, you know, there’s an employee that we may need there’s there’s something that’s now expanding that network, so suppliers also, you know, usually have tremendous ideas about what makes their business successful and in making their business successful. Part of why they you’re buying from them is that you need that good in service. So if through that channel it could make you better that becomes a tremendous resource on the more diversity requires the mohr ideas that you’re going to get so of all your suppliers look the same. Well, you’re probably not gonna get a lot of creative ideas, but if your suppliers are diverse, they can also provide you customers, because now you’re you’re increasing your increasing supply, your increasing somethings that they’re going to tell their customers so people let us use that supply chain effectively find out that becomes a very good source of not only information, but it comes competitive talent, competitive information, potential employees, potential services and it becomes almost a part of the organization. If manage correctly and your value the divers input that you’re going to get, i want you to tell us a story. We have a couple minutes left tell us, ah doesn’t matter, it’s company or non-profit they struggled with diversity and with having diversity, whether it was among in their marketing and promotion, or in their workforce or in their vendors they struggled, they overcame it on dh how they did on dh just a couple minutes we have i’ll tell you a famous story. Okay, about two years ago facebook, zuckerberg, mark zuckerberg and i don’t know when but i i call them suck so okay, take his company public, right. So, it’s facebook uh, the the wonder kid, you know, come up with this thing in his dorm. Uh, you know, it’s going to change the world and how social media is and he’s going to go public. So zuckerberg posted the the wall street and they look at his company to go fuck there’s this there’s no women. Now, i think somebody remember, like, sixty five percent of users of facebook or women. Yeah, wellit’s probably at least fifty. I mean, but it would imagine i certainly imagine being higher than at least with monisha okay, maybe, but all right, look, look at the camera goes, i can’t i can’t find any. Well, um, you know, cheryl’s, aunt sandberg is there, and his sister, i see her running around offgrid, you know, it’s a lot to say so after he got beat up and he got beat up, one thing that was was refreshing was that zuckerberg didn’t dig in his heels like a lot of companies, and they still continue to say they can’t find women, and i tell him, you know, i can hear you, you know, fifty percent of the planet’s women you can’t seem to find women. Zuckerberg, you know, he took his medicine in about a week later, cheryl sandberg was on the board, um, and i think they’re actually bringing it actually brought another woman onboard. So unlike other companies that they would sort of resistance, you know, we can find women and, you know, you know, he took his lumps and it actually helped other aipo start up companies. I now realize that this idea that you just started in your garage that’s going to go global, you need to have a global footprint, so you need to start if they if they’re going to ask dr berg about this, they’re probably going to ask me, and you know, if i’ve got it, women on my board, um, it was fifty percent of my my my users being women, uh, they could probably help me navigate some things that probably wouldn’t cross my radar just because i’m a man. So that became a global case for for diversity uh, one that’s relevant right now, and i’m proud to say, you know, i’m proud of the work we have to leave it there. The magazine is racing toward diversity feels jackson is founder and ceo, and you’ll find him on twitter at flea jack f l e i j a c k tony’s take two and dot ngo coming up first. Pursuant, they’re just the right sponsor for non-profit radio. I love that they are with us. They’re made for you. Our listeners that aaron small and midsize non-profits you’re the ones who don’t get the headlines and nine figure gif ts or eight figure gifts and seven figure gifts are rare maybe never depending on the size your shop, but those three, four, five and six figure gifts i understand those are your life blood pursuing has the tools that help you get more of those gif ts that you need pursuant dot com thank you, i have to thank you for listening and supporting non-profit radio, whether you listen live or podcast or through one of our affiliates, if you’re letting me into your inbox each week with the weekly alerts about who the guests are. If you’re tweeting about the show retweeting about the show, by the way, twitter is a great way to get me. If you’re a fan of the facebook page, however, it is your loving and supporting non-profit radio. Thank you. I really am grateful for all our support. Thanks and that’s tony’s take two for friday twenty third of october fortieth show of the year here is dot ngo welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference two thousand. Fourteen note that hashtag it’s fourteen and tc we’re at the marriott wardman park hotel in washington, d c and joining me now are glenn mcknight, andrew mac and evan leibovich. And we’re going to talk about i can naralo there’s acronyms. We’re goingto flesh all that out and the new dot ngo top level domain all about domains and how these air all managed today. Glenn mcknight is secretariat of naralo, which is the north america regional at large organization. Andrew mac is principal of am global consulting and is helping with the launch of the dot ngo top level domain. And evan liebovitz is global vice chair of the at large advisory committee of i can gentlemen welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Okay, evan, i can i see a n n the tell us what it is and why it’s important came. I can is the internet corporation for assigned names and numbers. It manages i p addresses, which is the machine numbers addresses of how machines find each other on the internet and the names of whatever dot com dot or ge got us dot uk of the names you used to actually translate to those. Numbers on how you get from your computer to wherever you’re looking for things every device connected to the internet, every single device in the world has to have a unique i pee or internet protocol address, right? If i overstated it, isn’t that? Is that right? Well, the problem is, is there’s a shortage of these numbers and everything, but i just need a number. You just agree with me that each single device that’s, right? So one person could have three or four easily i p address is right. You have your phone, you might have your ipad, you might have your desktop right and maybe have a fourth device that i can’t think about, maybe have two phones, so each individual device has to have its own unique i p address, right? You’re absolutely right. I can. The internet corporation for assigned names and numbers manages that that process is that right? The numbering scheme, as well as the naming scheme numbers and not right. Because in your address bar, i’m tryingto make this this’s relevant to every single person, absolutely who’s connected to the internet. So i’m not gonna make sure the relevance is clear when you go to your address bar, you either type in a name most likely or a number. And that all is an i p address at all. Or relates to an i p address and that’s how you get to a site or a device if you knew the number itself like one o six thought this thought this thought this you could type that directly into your browser. But most people don’t. I know that. Okay? Yes, but there is a number behind every name. So i have tony martignetti dot com there’s an i p address the number that that’s an adjusting itself. There’s a number behind that. That common name. Exactly. Okay. And if you think about it, if i can yeah, i can look at the andrew. It looks at the international policies around that. So it’s not just a question of the technical side, but also where is the internet going? What will the future of the internet look like? And it’s in a really interesting kind of public private partnership? Because it brings in people from many different sectors from the private world from the government world from the non-profit world. And they all come together to help design the policies that guide the internet as it goes forward. I can. I can is people. There are thie internet corporation there. There are fuller. This is a robot it’s important to understand that you think you want well, but the other thing to understand is that yes, there’s policies. But this is not about censorship. This is not about that neutrality. About that little sliver of regulations about names and numbers. Help me. Are there people are thie internet corporation comprised of people? Yes, or there is. There is an office in california and there’s offices in brussels. There’s officers in singapore where they have warm bodies that manage this. But there’s a massive community of volunteers that are. We’ll talk about it. It’s. Very bottom up. That’s what i think most people do not understand. I think most people think it’s dominated down top down. But it’s not and that’s. Where? The that’s where the regional at large organizations come in because there throughout the world. Right? Ok, now we’re going. We’re not tuna, rallo yet. Who appointed? I can to this role. How did they get that responsibility? Technically it’s a contract. With the department of commerce. So where did they come from? And let me explain, created icann the internet, as you, as you may know, was born out of a u s series of u s government contracts, right? He got big bird was originally a military was it was from the start, but yeah, profanity. So it was it was set up as an advanced way. I liketo, like, i don’t like to leave listeners with acronym, the defense advanced research project administration illustration, that’s, right, darpa and so darpa. And the idea was that we wanted to have systems that would that would be able to share data when bad things happen. Right then it migrated to you guys and probably know a little bit more about the academic side than i do, but been migrated to being a way of for academics to share data. And then as time went on, people realized that this was a really big thing, and it could have a lot more. It could have a lot more potential uses that wade initially thought it was a very exciting time, very exciting time and so that clinton was during the clinton administration. And they decided this is too big to just be held in the united states and that there’s a real value and having it be a global thing. And so there was a movement to try to create this. What is effectively a public private partnership that involves people from around the world. And then then then i can was born, and it has been moving in different directions to become more and more internationalist as time has gone on since the early nineties. Ok, ok. And, of course, where where i’m deliberately not mentioning the old al gore cliche. I’m so tired. Okay. All right now, let’s. Okay, so that is very interesting. Very, very i can. So now it is bottom up. So we have these these regional at large at large organizations throughout the world. Of which naralo the north america regional right regional advisory organs committee is one or the organization naralo? Well, i can has chopped the world into five region, so no, naralo is one of them. There’s, also one for latin american and caribbean, one for europe went for asia and one for asia pacific and one for africa. Okay, all these at large organizations throughout the world and they are helping to represent the people that are the people that are people, the individual internet users day in and day out, right? You’re not buying it. Domain. You’re not selling domain. You use them in your browser that’s, right? What does that mean? Well, so they thought the thought is that how does that relate to what i wait? Wait. Give it a chance. Okay? How does that relate to what i just said? Okay, if ford wants to have a website that you look at their cars, so ford goes out, they buy four dot com. And in germany, though, by four dot d e and so on and so forth. Okay, yeah. Then, it’s, they market to you here’s how to find us. All right, four dot com you type that into your browser, you’re not the one buying the domain. They’re paying money to somebody toe have four dot com. They’re buying an annual subscription to somebody toe have that? Yes, they’re paying to somebody else. They have four dot d and so on and so forth. Each of these top level domains dot com dot org’s every country. Has won so in canada’s dot see a uk, right? A you and so on. So there’s right now, there’s about twenty two dozen odd generic ones that aren’t associated with the country. Every country has designated their own and there’s about to be a very, very large expansion. Okay, we’re gonna get to that. We’re going to get there. Don’t worry. We have twenty five minutes together. Don’t worry. We’re not going to lose that. I know. It’s important. I happen to know, for instance, that morocco, the country, morocco is dahna emma. Because i have bought through bentley the custom earl. Tony. My name tony martignetti. Tony dot. So i know morocco is emma and you know, and in bit lee itself. Where is billy going through? I don’t know why. Libya. Libya, o b dot fulwider libya. Yes. Okay. Excellent. Who thought right? You do that. All right. You got the right people. Hear you, do you? Do you guys do well, that’s a rhetorical question for the three of you were when i was anywhere else than any other audience. That would be. That would not be rhetorical. If you see something. Dot tv. That money. Is going to the island of two tuvalu to value in the south pacific? Follow-up xero tuvalu otavalo alright to tuvalu. Okay, um, so well, all right. So i pay my money for the dot. Tony dahna emma. Andi. I paid it to whatever hover or domain director, you know where you bought it from? A registrar. Okay. That’s a recess, the registrar. And then they enter durney bought it from a registry. The guys who run the dahna registry makes sense within that within the country of morocco. So more cases in the case of morocco it’s run it’s, run by the whoever’s, the moroccan internet authority. Okay. In some case, it’s it’s managed by a third party because that you may have the technical skills. No doubt that the two blue government, in fact, i know that the two blue government uses uses it uses a third party that help them run that which is fine, you know? Okay, it’s good for them. But how does all this and how do do those relate to? I can’t. Okay. So i know there isn’t a direct relation. I mean, i know they’re not direct, but well, i hand through contracts essentially has relationships with the people that do dot com dot or dot net and the new ones that air coming around the ones that are the country codes. There’s. A little bit of a hands off relationship because that’s a national sovereignty thing. So i can doesn’t get involved in the national codes, but they coordinate them. So they do show up at the i can meetings. There is a relationship going, and they work on things like best practices. Okay, without i can we we would probably have duplicates all over the world. We wouldn’t be able to reach anybody. We’d have duplicates and triplets and quadrillion million connections thing. This is one of the things that tony that i think it’s really been important about. The way that the internet has developed is is that the real strength of the web is that it is a unitary web that there’s one place, that all of us can go where we can all meet online. So there’s, not a moroccan web and a saudi web. Yeah, and and and and and a senegalese web. And because of that, we can do so much more together and so one of the great things that i can has contributed, i think, is, is that it’s managed to keep the international community together, given them a voice so that all of these different groups, like the user groups, like the commercial groups like the government groups, can advise the board in such a way that we can keep the web together so that we can really leverage it to the maximum impact. So you’re you know, now you now you you have, ah user base that maybe mostly in north america say, but there’s no reason why this couldn’t expand out into different languages and all over the world non-profit radio. Yeah, and that’s, partly because of the web being, you know, tara unitary that’s one of the goals i think of i can is to keep it that way to try and get the most out of our way out of our ability to interconnect. But that also means satisfying the needs of people around the world. So you are now starting to see domain names that are in cyrillic that are in chinese script. There are in arabic or hebrew or hindi, and so they’re not in latin. Characters now you may not be able to read them. You may not be able to use them, but the people in china or saudi arabia that air using them don’t care if you do or not, because they’re targeting their own language audience. Okay? And of course, i could always get to the number that’s behind those, right? So if i i don’t know, i don’t know how i would do that. But i could. Well, if your key bird could do arabic, then you could type in arabic, drugged up there when you get it right. But short of that, there is a number behind everything. All those irrespective of the language that the address is in, right? Okay. In fact, you may have the arabic in the english pointing to the same number that conserve you in both languages have the arabic and the english pointing to the same number. Oh, sure. Okay. Yeah. Still a unique number. That’s, right, number’s gotta be unique. Okay. All right. Now, let’s. Let’s. Bring glenn into the conversation because, ah, he’s, the one who brought this topic to me yesterday. And there is something very exciting happening for non-profits there’s. A new top level domain like a dot com dot org’s. Glenn, why don’t you get real close tonight? Yes, and tell us what’s going on? Yeah, so actually the expert on this that is actually part of the p i r implementation of dot ngos is avenged and you crossed it well, but i felt back you haven’t contributed yet and you brought this very interesting topic to me because actually the nancy spoke at the podium yesterday and and we’re at the inten conference and actually addressed the twenty two hundred delegates saying, hey, we have this new ngo as not-for-profits you should be involved and i thought it was important that’s why we did a birds of a feather yesterday that’s why were going around with our brochures on naralo informing the not-for-profits sector hey, the internet, internet governance, all the issues that are pertinent important to you actually there’s organisations particularly naralo that can assist you in this process. We’re here particularly to promote not-for-profits to join as a lexus with i can’t okay, andrew will turn to you because you are helping with the launch of a new ngo, top level domain and in fact i was just because you mentioned it the other day. I was three weeks ago in morocco doing really doing, doing radio in morocco, actually, as part of it, right and all that brought you here. So that means you’re tony dot mm, exactly, right? So i mean, i just thinkit’s the world coming together and so perfect, right? So the idea behind a sze yu know the and that’s we’ve discussed that the internet has these amazing possibilities right for an especially corporate for non-profits if you think about it all around the world, non-profits many non-profits find themselves confronted by the same challenges they find themselves in need of partners, they find themselves in need visibility they find themselves in need of additional resource is and things like that. And thie as the internet. Azaz evan was describing there’s a tremendous interest in in in expansion of the internet so that so that more people can get on board can more people could take it, take use of it. There were historically twenty some or first there were thirteen and they were twenty some different. But they called generics. And this generics working like calm and like net. On like organ and the people public interest registry that brought as and have been managing dot or ge looked at this expansion of the internet that was proposed a few years ago and said, hey, there’s, a real opportunity or, like calm like that is an open space, okay, you do not need to be a non-profit to have a dot or go the most many, many orders are very interesting, right? Most are, but you don’t have to be don’t have dahna same way that you don’t have to be a company to be a dot com, you don’t have to be a network to be a dot net, but that was the original taxonomy of it, right? So they said, hey, this may make real good sense if we’re expanding the internet out this make make real good sense for us, get have a specific, targeted safe space for ngos to congregate on the web, right will give them additional tools that will allow them to meet up that will allow them to do things and for people to find them right and have a high level of confidence that this is the’s are, in fact, real. Ngos and that stems out of for a whole host of reasons i mean, one is the desire for ngos toe work together much more closely, which there, which is a huge issue around the world. Second one is there’s much, much more cross pollination and much, much more cross work between ngos from the global north and the global south. Donors are asking for the ngos themselves are asking for it. And yet, if you’re if you’re an ngo doing really great work on hiv aids in mali, it may be very difficult to get visible outside of bamako, right? And if you’re doing it from, you know, a secondary or tertiary city, its most impossible to do it. How will this new top level domain so the so the idea behind it is that way we create a a safe space, you get a dot ngo, a dahna omg and access to a portal and actually the ability to put up a little basic portal. Paige, if you’re if you like so that you could be found, you could be searched and found easily so that you can be you confined partners. You can share data with them. And you can import your own donate button. You know you’re on your own. You’re on your own don’t donate app when every whatever you would use i would like to use so that you could receive funds directly when i was in morocco is a perfect example, right i was in was in three cities in four and a half days was in robot casablanca in marrakech. We had a long conversation with the people in marrakesh. And he said, how many tourists come to america shevawn year and it’s hundreds of thousands. Right? So you think to yourself, wow, we met with remember that incredible woman she’s, a pharmacist who set up a she said open ngo to help deal with street children who were abandoned children who were abandoned the street. The babies are a bandit in the street and she said, you know i said, well, how many? How many of these tourists that come know that you exist? You can afford to fly all the way to america’s ah, fifty, dollar contribution is a nothing, right it’s a dinner and yet no one could find her and she couldn’t find them. This is the kind. Of thing that will allow her would connect in with other ngos doing similar kind ofwork and conceivably with tourists with hotels with other people who are of, you know, who would love to give her money and love to support her work and would never know that she existed. Okay, but tony there’s one there’s one important thing about this is that what andrew’s talking about? What dot ngo is doing is more than we’re just going to sell you a domain? Yeah. Now clearly wardle it’s a community where is the other ones that are doing like dot dogs there died n y c or a lot of these other let’s not let’s not know where i’m from it’s not put down and i see in the same category dot dogs it shouldn’t even be in the same sentence. You’re from new york. Yes, i’m yes. I’m wishing out there right now or dot bicycle or whatever the point is with most of these you by name you get a name it’s like dot com that’s it and you’re on your own right? This is not what this is deeper than that exactly how the gold? The goal. Is to create a real community and her career, a real international community with a lot of input. I mean, this is not a it’s p i r is helping to do the back and announcing the i r is right. The public interest registered the people who are doing the people who are running dot, dot launching dot ngo is the public interest registers people who do dahna arkwright, okay, they their goal, you know, there’s a there’s, a great sensitivity and it’s a valid sensitivity in the ngo communities and says who died and left you in charge? Right? And they’re very humble, and one of the things that we like about this approach is they’re very humble about it. They recognised that this has got to be a community organizer, you know, it’s got it’s, got it’s, got to be computer he organized pr can help the dot ngo people can help with the back end, but in the end, there’s going to be it’s about and for the ngo community itself, okay, with ngo governance and is part of it, you know. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guest directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. All right, all right. So, what way? Need some takeaways? We still have a good amount of time. We play time’s. Not that we’re not wrapping up yet. But what are some takeaways now for non-profits that have ninety nine percent of their there? Dot org’s people were talking to we’re listening. What? What should they? How did they take advantage of doubt, ngo, what do they what do they do? But first go to my office on monday. What do i do? Tow. Explore this more and see if i can. It makes sense for me. The first thing is to put an expression of interest and why. And what you do is you guys are laden with your acronyms. Oh, my god! Any? Oh, i an expression of inter prison of interest on. And what that does that puts you down puts you down is having expressed interest. There are a number of people who, for obvious reasons, have have names that might overlap, especially if you go by your acronyms. So, it’s, good to get your name down as early as possible. It gets you on the list. It gets you gets you information. About what? When? Things are going to roll out because it’s still, you know, with anything technical, where do you go? Where do you do where you do the eoe who’d buy something? Jodie cubine goto the one that i remember is g o t l d dot org’s. But there are others, and i’ll get you that in from okay, raymond. All right. So ngo tl d dahna latto or but if you could even also go to the p i r dot ord website as well, p i r dot org’s also. Right. So you know what i’m doing, listeners to be ableto take some actionable steps. Well, it hasn’t your well it hasn’t launched. It is a matter of getting getting on a waiting list. Effective bourelly theo, i stage its first hasn’t launched, right? Yo, i but so what do you know? So but the ideas it’s first come first served if you want to name that some other non-profit also wants to use the same name. So that kind of religion is that we don’t makes a lot of sense to get your eoe eoe eye your expression of interest in, you know, even if you may not have end up doing it that’s what right? But claim absolute claims in their advantage and claiming a space, of course. And then you get the choice later to actually use it or or let it let it let someone else that’s, right? It’s, not it’s, not a guarantee that you’ll get it, but and remember that space is only open to real ngos, right? So? So if a company cames in, if abc company wanted to come in, they wouldn’t qualify, so they won’t. They you know, they wouldn’t get a dot nt right, or an individual or on anything, even if i was doing that, even if you were an artist and even if you’re doing work for the public good, but still, you’re still not gonna qualify for dot ngos, correct. Okay, help zsystems sorry, what andrew’s getting out it’s, a vetting system. This is a real improvement over the previous system. Okay, we’re improving. No what’s, the what’s, the what’s. The next step then after the expression of interest what’s gonna happen. So where we are, we in the hole i can process just generally is is that is that as as these new names have been approved right then they have to get they have to go through their technical checkups and this kind of stuff. And then eventually that what they put into the root right then they become available. And so what? What will happen is over the course of the rest of the year, all of this stuff will be rolled out. There are new ones being rolled out every every few weeks. If i remember correctly that’s, right, and the one the ones for for dot ngo are going to be available late in the year. It looks like and when they’re available, everybody who’s on the list will get advance warning of everything that’s happening. Your people to follow it on on our on the websites and things like that. And then when and then and then when it when it when it, when it happens, when it comes live for sale and seven says it’s ah it’s a first come, first serve kind of thing there are, as you can imagine, a number of ngos that have the same name in different places around the world, of course. So if that’s one of the reasons why we’re encouraging people, especially people who are, you know, bigger networks that want to get in early, get torrio in now, as time goes on, there will be doing a whole host of launch events around this to try to sensitize people around the world and an important thing about this is it’s not just to do it for your own side, but share it with your network. This is a one of the great things about the dot ngo the community is that it will have a real network effect. The mohr ngos around the world that get into this community, the more people will be able to know, the more it’ll be easy for foundations and donors and individuals to say, i’m going to go there. I’m going to look for good, good people. I’m going to contribute. You may have heard of the of the work that people like eva are doing when you have a small micro lenders, you know, an individual can go on, give twenty five dollars to a to attu an entrepreneur in uganda imagine that on a huge scale for ngos around the world. And you got the idea that what what i’ve done, ngok very important to recognize that this is much deeper than just a top level domain, absolutely community it really worldwide commune and hopefully a real game changing technology for the ngo sector. Yeah, there’s going to be hundreds of these? I mean, a lot of them are just going to go to you and say, well, if you couldn’t get what you wanted and dot com come to us, this is something much bigger than that, okay, what else we got? Well, that was it sounds like a great wrap up, but i still want to spend a couple more minutes can tell you a bit about what we’d been doing around the world because i think it’s it’s pretty interesting stuff, okay, keep it, keep it relevant to our to our audio. Absolutely, absolutely it’s it’s just to give you a sense of what this is like, we’ve been actually talking with with ngo audiences around the world i think we’ve done them in, i don’t know maybe twenty different countries, at least, you know, morocco, senegal, cameroon, all over south america, india, singapore, delicate different places what’s so exciting about it is is that the feed back to the community has been that this is this is this is a really this is really good gig that they rupture, that they’re having a hard time, you know, they’re having a hard time getting the visibility and coming together because there’s not a common space. And so one of the things that we’ve we’ve made a big effort to do is to try to design all of the criteria for joining what it means to be an ngo real big challenge. What does it mean to be an ad to find across the world and be fair to everyone you got it? And so what we’ve made a big effort to do is to get impact input from the different communities around the world to say, well, you know, you know, you you know, the west african community better than us give us advice on what would constitute an ngo and so that’s been a great learning. Experience and and we’re continuing to we built this really great network of advisors and people who can give us input on, you know, does this work and and i’m guessing that this will be an ongoing process where, you know, as time goes on, well, will continue to refine and make this more and more and more appropriate to the local conditions as well as just a broad, broad international conditions i’m feeling i’m feeling very glad that non-profit radio is part of helping spread the word we’ll get, we’ll get nine thousand organizations. Well, tony it’s going to be very, very important, teo know about this kind of thing because you’re going to have this rollout of all these top level domains within the work i’m doing within at large, and i can’t there’s a really trust issue here that some of the domains, they’re just going to be a free for all, and anyone could be in there and there’s, no vetting their religions and so it’s important to know that there’s going to be some of them that are in this that are sort of a kind of above from the rest, okay? Glenn yeah, i like tio and to that is that i suggest connecting with i can the main staff, the vp, chris mondini would be a perfect person to be a host guest issue. Okay, we’ll talk about it. We’ll talk about that after. Can people get information at n g o t l d dot org’s their information they can and there’s a booth. The dot ngo. People have a booth right as you walk into this room. Well, but what are nine thousand aren’t here? So you get you a lot and i think there’s another one global tl d no global ngo dot dot or guy think also is it global ngo dot or believe that that’s, right? But d o t l d definitely okay, of course, that stands for non governmental organization. Top level domain you got learned all about. All right, glenn mcknight. I’m sorry. Yeah. Koegler mcknight, secretariat, secretariat of naralo you spoke the least, but i want to thank you very much for bringing this up, but i’m glad i’m glad i met you yesterday. And then you brought in andrew mac. Principle of am g global. Ok, am amglobal amglobal consulting is makes sense. And, of course, he’s also hoping with the launch of the dot ngo new top level domain on glen, also brought in evan leibovich, global vice chair of the at large advisory of what am i messing up, vice chair, global vice chair of the large advisory committee of of i can, which we all now understand is the internet corporation of assigned names and numbers i want thank you very much for revealing this this part of the back end of our magnificent internet and then also explaining the new top level domains. Gentlemen, thank you so, so much. Thank you so much. Pleasure, really joy. I don’t want a lot. I’ve never i’ve never heard this done in thirty minutes before. Okay, well, either we didn’t recover it superficially or we did a good job and kept a concise tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen. Thanks so much for being with us next week. The halloween show. It won’t suck. I promise that if you missed any part of today’s show finding on tony martignetti dot com, it also did not suck. Where in the world else would you go pursuant? Lots of tools for small and midsize shops. You’ll raise more money, let’s. Just leave it at that this week. Pursuant dot com, our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. Susan chavez. Dot com on our music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. 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