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Nonprofit Radio for March 18, 2024: Artificial Intelligence For Nonprofits, Redux


Justin Spelhaug, Amy Sample Ward, & Tristan Penn: Artificial Intelligence For Nonprofits, Redux

A second savvy panel takes on the impact, leadership demands, promises, responsibilities, and future of AI across the nonprofit community. We convened a panel in June last year. But this is an enormous shift in nonprofit workplaces that deserves another look. This panel is Justin Spelhaug, from Technology for Social Impact at Microsoft, and Amy Sample Ward and Tristan Penn from NTEN.


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And welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be forced to endure the pain of chronic inflammatory demyelinating, poly reticular neuropathy. If you attacked me with the idea that you missed this week’s show, that one is so good. It deserves two weeks and plus I spent a week practicing it. So it lives on for one more week. Here’s our associate producer to introduce this week’s show. Hey, Tony, I’m on it. It’s Artificial Intelligence for nonprofits. Redux, a second savvy panel takes on the impact, leadership demands, promises responsibilities and future of A I across the nonprofit community. We convened a panel in June last year, but this is an enormous shift in nonprofit workplaces that deserves another look. This panel is Justin Spell Haug from technology for social impact at Microsoft and Amy Sample Ward and Tristan Penn from N 10 on Tony’s take two. Thank you. We’re sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your support of generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org and by virtuous, virtuous gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools. You need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow. Giving. Virtuous.org. Here is Artificial Intelligence for nonprofits redux. We’re talking this week about artificial intelligence. Again, it’s an important topic. Uh We did this with a panel in June last year today, a different distinguished panel shares their thoughts on this transformative technology. It’s timely, It’s got a lot of promise and a lot of risks. It’s moving fast. Those are the reasons why nonprofit radio is devoting multiple episodes to it. What are the promises and the responsibilities? What’s the role of nonprofit leadership about government? What are the equity concerns? The biases? What about access to this intelligence? What are the preconditions for successful integration at your nonprofit? What’s the future of artificial intelligence? Who to share their thinking? Are Justin Spell Hog recently promoted Justin Spell Haug. He is corporate vice president and global head of technology for Social Impact at Microsoft. You’ll find Justin on linkedin. Justin. Welcome to nonprofit radio. Congratulations on your promotion from vice president to corporate vice president at the uh enormous company Microsoft. It’s great to be here with the pod father. It’s a new name. So I’m proud to, proud to be here and look forward to the conversation. All right. Well, I’m glad it’s the first time you’ve heard the pod father. It’s, there’s on, there can be only one really there, there ought to be only one. So I’m glad it’s the first time. Um And I see, you know, global head. I’m sorry, you’re a little bit limited. You’re not working in the stratosphere, the ionosphere, the troposphere, you’re strictly limited to the globe. I’m sorry, we all have our constraints. We are working on Mars and the moon uh soon, but we gotta get a broader population of nonprofits there. All right. So we, we’re limited to the globe. I’m sorry for you, Amy Stample Ward. We know them. They are nonprofit radio’s technology contributor and the CEO of N 10. They’re at Amy Sample ward.org and at Amy RS Ward, Amy, it’s great to see you. Welcome back. Of course. Thanks. I know there have been a number of different conversations about A I that you’ve had on nonprofit radio. Um I’ve listened to them, I haven’t been in all of them. They’ve been great and, you know, we talked a little bit about a IJ and I, you know, when we started off with some of what’s gonna be big topics in the sector for 2024. So excited to be in a conversation kind of dedicated to that. I’m glad you are and Tristan Penn, welcoming back Tristan, he is equity and accountability director at N 10 as a Black and NAVAJO professional. He’s served on previous organizations, equity teams and been a facilitator for de I rooted in racial equity. Tristan is on linkedin, Tristan. Welcome back. Awesome. So happy to be here. Um Thank you for having me, excited to have this conversation with um Amy, who I work very closely with and um it’s really good to see you too and um also excited to have this conversation with Justin to see um you know what we can unearth. Yes, we’re, we’re representing the big tech perspective. Um Amy, since you are our tech contributor, uh we’re gonna start off, you know, just big picture. What are your, what are your thinking? What is your thinking? What are your concerns? Big picture stuff. Yeah. Well, I’m glad that we’ve scheduled five hours for this interview. I will be taking the first four. Thank you so much. I have many thoughts. Uh many concerns, many, uh you know, I think there’s so there’s just a lot to get into, I think some top level, you know, bites to put at the beginning here are, there’s a lot of hype and as with anything that falls into the hype machine, I think nonprofits do not need to fall, you know, victim to like, oh my gosh, I read this one article so I have to do the thing, right? Um There’s, there’s time A I is not done, the world is now now, not already over and everything’s predetermined, right? So, um you, you’ve seen the article that was like a I will end humanity? Ok. Ok. Here we are let’s calm down and talk about things. So I, I know I’ve talked to nonprofits whose boards are, like, I read that article and A I is good. You know, it’s ending all of us like we can take our time. That’s one piece. Uh, I also think it’s important for organizations to think about where they are already working, what communities they already work with, what data they already have. Like this isn’t start a new project when we’re talking about A I. Um And so I think we’ll get into that more in our, in our conversations here. Um And of course, that A I isn’t new. Well, I mean, artificial intelligence is a phrase is the, is the broadest umbrella term we could use for these types of technologies. And so to, to have these sentences that say like A I is new and it’s here and it’s going so fast. Like what is that? That’s like encompassing so many different components of technology. Uh And so what do, what do we really mean when we’re talking about A I? Are you talking about a model that you set up inside of your organization? You know, to help identify program participants that need extra support? That could, that can be A A I. But that’s very different than saying, oh yeah, we’re just using chat GP T to help, you know, start some of our drafts. OK. Those are so they are wildly different things. And so to talk about them in the same breath as it’s all a I it sets folks up to already have kind of a disconnected conversation even from the start. All right. Thank you and hold our feet to the fire. Uh Especially me because the three of you think about this all the time and I don’t. So, you know, if I, if I lose that context that you just revealed, shared with us, please, uh call me out. All right, Justin big picture, please. What do you go on Amy? You know, the hype cycle of it’s gonna save us, it’s gonna destroy us. And now just kind of how do we make use of it? We’ve been going through this, this process as a, as a community. I, I think one of the things when I zoom out, I, I just see um some tectonic shifts that are impacting the sector from some big demographic shifts in European countries in the United States where we force is getting older, that’s putting tons of pressure on aged care and front line community workers, some big shifts in uh continents like Africa where education, skilling and jobs are all critical and the nonprofits facing off on these issues aren’t getting any additional funding. GDP is stabilized in many countries, but we’ve hit a new set point for inflation that’s impacting pocketbooks. It’s impacting people’s ability to raise money. And so really, you know, the question that we have to ask is how do we use A I in, in missions to help organizations raise more money, help them deliver more effective program, help them rise to these challenges that are continuing to create pressure in the sector. And how do we do all of that in a way that’s responsible in a way that’s safe in a way that’s inclusive. And that’s actually a pretty complex topic that I hope we spend some time on. Indeed. And thank you for the uh global perspective. Tristan, big picture of thoughts, please. I have lots of thoughts similar to, to Amy. And I, I think where I start off with is kind of like in a very, uh, I worked for 20 years and I still am working in, in nonprofit and I see how, um over those years nonprofits and, you know, small organizations have seen something that’s bright and glittery and then like, so amazed by it and been like, yes, we want it, we’re going to take it in and we have no process for building it into our, our operations. We have no forethought for it. We have no contingency to, um, to live by when we’re folding this in this ideal state. We, we’ve already jumped like multiple steps to um us envisioning how we’re going to operate with this bright shiny tool that we have. And that’s never been the case in my years, um, that I’ve, I’ve been a nonprofit and it’s, if anything, it’s always been uh folded in, in a way that doesn’t have a lot of forethought too. So I think the things that come to mind for me that make me curious and also a little bit, um, reticence um about just the blanket, the umbrella term A I is um folding it in where it makes sense and not where you want to add a little, you know, uh icing on your cake where it does where it needs none. And so, um that’s where II I intersect with it. There’s another piece of it um where I, I am a little um critical of it and concerned about it. Um because I think that this can, you know, we, to Amy’s point, we think about A I and a lot of people go in different directions. I think the, the baseline for a lot of people is they go to like a I generated pictures or chat GP T um to do those things and it’s much more than that, but I do think about a time anecdotally where um I was at a conference and I was um passing by a booth and there was like a very lovely, you know, picture of an older um couple and I was like, oh, that reminds me of my grandparents. It was an older black couple and I was like, oh, that’s so cute. It reminds me a lot of my grandparents. It’s like very, you know, and then I I went in closer and this is a, a booth that’s, you know, managed by a bunch of white folks. And, um, and then they were like, oh, did you know that this is an A I generated picture? And that didn’t feel good to me as a black person that didn’t feel good. It felt incredibly like I had been misled in a really scary way. Um I feel like I have a really good detector of like what’s real, what’s not my BS detector is like always up and on and that scared me because I was duped hard and that scares me in a way um less about nonprofits, but just the overall overall globalization and usage of it and implementation that it could go in to hand to the hands of people and create false narratives about marginalized groups um just based on what they, what product they wanna sell. And that is scary. Um And that, that’s something that I think um has just stuck with me for um for a while. Thank you for raising the the risks and, and potential, you know, misuse abuse. We, we need to go to artificial intelligence to create a uh a picture of an elderly black couple that was, it was necessary to do. And also thank you for the valuable parallel, you know, you, you make me think of uh social media adoption when Facebook was new, you know, we, we assigned it to an intern and we put it like the cherry on top where we didn’t need a cherry, but the intern had used it in college. So, you know, she may as well do it for us full time. Uh It very valuable, interesting parallel. Um Amy start us off with just a common I definition, you know, um artificial intelligence, generative, I mean, a generative artificial intelligence. That’s, that’s what we’re largely going to be talking about. Uh if not exclusively. I, I think so, what is, what is, there’s a lot of that? I think we’re, we’ll start with taking one at one at a time, right? Sure. No, I was just gonna say, I think um we already are exposed when we’re thinking about technology in our nonprofit organizations to lots of different terms, lots of different companies putting things out there with the uh not necessarily cloaked, you know, it’s not, it’s not a hidden desire to reinforce that they’re specialists, they know what they’re doing. And like us lowly nonprofits don’t know, we couldn’t understand those fancy terms, right? And so I always, I mean, I teach a course and I always remind folks like you absolutely can know what these words mean, you know. Um And I appreciate that there are so many places even actually, like I, I, I’m never somebody that promotes um these things. So folks know this, but like Microsoft has actually offered, you know, community learning spaces to say these are what these words mean. Um So artificial intelligence is like I said, the biggest umbrella term for all different types, generative A I uh machine learning, all of these components that people might talk about as if they are one different thing. They’re all like within that same A I umbrella. And I just want to say two words because they’ll probably come up in our conversation. I know you want to go one word at a time. But the words I hear from folks the most where they’re not, they feel like they should know what this word means and they don’t and they feel like silly that they don’t understand our algorithm and model those words are used all the time in talking about generative A I, which means the tool is, is set up to generate something back for you. Tristan used an image, uh you know, visual image uh example, but that could be text, that could be video, that could be audio, you know, it’s, it’s asking the the tool to generate something for you. Um But an algorithm we’ve heard this word like, you know, oh Facebook’s algorithm is like choosing what I see, right? The algorithm means the set of rules. So in Facebook’s newsfeed, that set of rules says if something already has a bunch of likes prioritize it, right? If it has uh you know, two friends that you’re connected to already commenting, prioritize, so it’s whatever that set of rules is that says this is how to generate a older black couple image, what whatever those rules were, that’s what algorithm means. And model essentially means like you can think of the same, the the word is used in the same way as uh when you say model about cars like it is the whole set put together, right? It’s got the data, it has the algorithm, the rules that say how, how to do it, it has the input, whatever you’re gonna ask it to do that kind of when people say what’s the model? They’re really saying. OK. What, what’s the package uh of how this tool is working? Thank you for all that. It’s time for a break. Open up new cashless in person donation opportunities with Donor box live kiosk. The smart way to accept cashless donations. Anywhere, anytime picture this a cash free on site giving solution that effortlessly collects donations from credit cards, debit cards and digital wallets. No team member required. Plus your donation data is automatically synced with your donor box account. No manual data entry or errors make giving a breeze and focus on what matters your cause. Try donor box live kiosk and revolutionize the way you collect donations in 2024. Visit Donor box.org to learn more. Now, back to artificial intelligence for nonprofits. Redux, Justin, I see you taking lots of notes. What’s uh what’s going on? What’s going on in your head? What what? No, I think um what just as Amy highlighted. One of the things that’s important to highlight is um we, we’ve been using A I for a really, really long time and there are really important use cases that have nothing to do with, with generative A I, things like machine learning, right? That allows us to do things like predict donation, things like machine language that allows us to translate from one language to another. Things like machine vision that allows us to identify and classify objects. All of those are important um tools as we look to solve different problems. Um In in the sector, generative A I is as Amy was highlighting is a new class of artificial intelligence that allows that’s capable of creating effectively novel content because it’s reasoning across, you know, all of the information in the internet and using as a news highlighting algorithms to identify patterns that allows it to um you know, produce answers in a really uh in, in many times intelligent ways. However, uh as Tristan was highlighting, you know, ensuring that um these models are inclusive, are representative, are safe, are understood, are all things that were continuing to work uh to put frameworks around and tools around uh so that they uh produce positive impact, not negative impact. And Justin how can we ensure that that actually happens? You know, there, there’s a lot of talk about biases, you know, uh the the the large language models are trained on predominantly white uh uh language sources. So you’re gonna, there’s so there’s bias uh the, the so that, you know, there are equity issues. But uh what uh what is the big tech doing to actually uh keep these, keep equity centered in and, and keep lack of biases centered as these models are adopted using the algorithms that, that Amy just defined for us. Yeah, it’s a really multifaceted answer. I’ll only hit two points and we can go much deeper if we want, we release. Uh just in fact, in the last week, this the Microsoft A I access principles trying to get at this very problem which has 11 core components. I’ll speak to two to give you a flavor of the kinds of things that we need to do as we think about the A I economy globally to ensure it’s fair, representative uh and safe. The one of the principles is making sure that A I models and development tools are broadly available to software developers everywhere in the world, everywhere in the world and every culture in the world training on the language and on the history uh and on the societies all around the world uh to create much, much more representation. As you probably know, many of the models have been developed in North America and therefore reflect some of those cultural biases. So, federating these tools that is critical uh in the in the A I economy. Secondly, you know, um companies and organizations that produce A I need to have rules uh for how they um check and balance the A I to ensure that it’s responsible, it’s fair, it’s safe, it respects privacy, it respects uh security, it’s inclusive, it’s transparent and we call those rules that Microsoft are responsible A I framework and it’s not just a set of principles, it’s actually an engineering standard. And when applying that engineering standard, we were looking at uh fairness in speech to text. So taking speech and transforming it into text and we found it was a couple of years ago, we produced this article that our, our speech to text algorithms were not as accurate Black and African American communities in the United States as they were for Caucasian communities. Um And that was largely a function of the training data that was used. And so we had to take a step back using our framework that caught this issue to say, how do we work with the communities more effectively? How do we bring socio linguists in to help us understand how to capture all of the rich diverse city of language to make sure that our speech to text capability is representative of every citizen that we’re, we’re rolling this out to. And that’s an exam and we did that and, and today it performs much better and there’s more work to do. But it’s those kinds of frameworks and guard rails that are really important in helping uh people design this stuff in a way that benefits everyone. Tristan. What’s your reaction? You, you’re thinking about equity all the time. Um What’s my reaction? What isn’t my reaction? And I would say, um I, I love that and I love what Justin was saying about um how, you know, making it a Federated model as opposed to it. I mean, yeah, everything, I only say everything but a good amount of things are being generated created curated in North America and baked into those models and algorithms are like biases that skewed towards white men. And um and that’s not OK. I think that excludes me in particular, but also like, you know, I, I think um having um a plan for that as opposed to being reactionary to being like, well, gosh, we didn’t know what was going on and being um uh a little more, less reactionary and more um forward thinking in that way. Yeah, proactive um is, is always a good place to start. I think a few other things that do come to mind too in terms of um making sure that communities of color marginalized communities are um not um constantly shouldering even outside of A I but constantly shouldering um the mess ups of like the brand new tool that came out on the market and that seems to always be the case and there’s always like a headline months later where it’s like, so and so we found out, this tool wasn’t geared towards her facial recognition wasn’t geared towards like, you know, black folks. Um, and it was like, historically wrong. And so I, I think about those things, but I also think about um, it through a nonprofit lens because we’re on a nonprofit call. Um, and I, um, I bring up the, another anecdotal story of um having, uh, being on a call and having an A I note taker bot um hop into the zoom call too. I think we’ve within like the last half year we’ve been on calls where it’s like, oh, I don’t know about some actual person or a thing or like, you know, it, it’s very ambiguously named sometimes where it’s like Otter, one of them is Otter, right? And this Otter is all of a sudden it’s in our meeting. This Otter is, yeah. And I think, you know, there is a lot of benefit, there’s a lot of benefit in having um you know, uh note taking tools and um also captioning tools that are, are, are for folks in terms of accessibility. There are folks that have completely different learning styles. There are folks that take in information at different levels and different wavelengths of things. And I say that all to say that like, you know, I would like to see a world where um it was scarier um with, to keep with the Otter Box or not Otter Box. Sorry, that’s not Otter Box is not a sponsor of this. Um But the Otter A I um uh gene Note taking tool was that after I got an email randomly from the, the note taker to all the people also to all the people that were in that call with a um a narrative recap of everything that we, we talked over. It wasn’t a transcript, it was a narrative recap, which is fine enough. OK. Um There were, there was a screenshot of just a random person that was on the call that was also there. And also um what’s most scary for me, I think or just very concerning um is um at the bottom, it was like here’s the productivity score of the call, 84% here’s the engagement of the call, 72%. And it’s like where it, where is at least, at the very least, where’s the asterisk at the bottom that says this is how we calculated this whatever. And I, I immediately go, I’m not a pessimist, but in that moment, I was like, this is going to be used by people in higher positions, people in power to wield over folks, middle management and direct service to say, hey man, you didn’t have a um 84% or higher engagement score on our last zoom call, you are now on a personal improvement plan and that is a scary place to be. And so I think less about like these tools are what they are. But I think about the people and the systems and the toxic systems at times that sometimes wield these brand new shiny tools in a way that doesn’t feel good and also is working against their mission and against their employees. Its time for Tonys take two. Thank you, Kate and thank you for supporting nonprofit radio. Uh I like to say thanks every once in a while because I don’t want you to think that we’re taking you for granted. I’m grateful, grateful for your listening. And if you get the insider alerts each week, I’m grateful that you get those letting us into your inbox. Um This week, I’m in Portland, Oregon recording a whole bunch of good savvy smart interviewers for upcoming episodes. Hopefully, that helps like show our gratitude because we’re out here collecting good interviews for you to listen to if you can’t make the nonprofit technology conference yourself. So thank you. I’m grateful that you listen, grateful that you’re with us week after week. That’s Tonys take two Kate. Thank you guys so much for listening to us every week. We appreciate you. Well, we’ve got Buku but loads more time. Let’s return to artificial intelligence for nonprofits redux with Justin Spell Haug Amy Sample Ward and Tristan Penn Ki. I love that you brought that up. Um Don’t love that it happened that you brought it up as an example here for folks because I think it’s uh a easy entryway into a conversation on one of the points Tony mentioned at the start of the call, like, what are some of these preconditions? Um And you were like, oh people are like, oh bright shiny, right? That’s what we do. Oh bright shiny, like I’m going to use this tool that like took the notes in here and a place where we’ve seen for many people, many years in in ten’s research is that nonprofits struggle. This isn’t to say that for profit companies don’t also struggle with this, but nonprofit organizations struggle with consent, they struggle with privacy and security. And so here’s a well meaning well intentioned, right? I’m going to use this tool except it’s emailing you, you didn’t consent to that. It emailed all the participants in the call. There was no opt in, right? Let alone a very clear opt out like why did I even get this? Um That’s not even to say opting into sentiment analysis of whatever is a community zoom call, right? Um And so when we peel that back and say, OK, well, we just wouldn’t use that note taking, right? Sure. But when we’re thinking about preconditions for this effective work as an organization do, what are your data policies in general? The number of organizations that we work with that still don’t have a data policy because they think, well, isn’t there like some law about data? So like we, why would we have our own policy? OK, there is some law related to data, right? Different types of data have different laws, but that’s not the same as an organization saying, what data do we collect? Why do we collect it? How long do we retain it? What if somebody wants us to remove it? How do we do that in our systems? Right. So this level of uh fidelity to your own data, to your own community members, to the policies that you’ve set up to manage those relationships. Um And trust for so many organizations are already not in place or, or like I said, there’s just not a fidelity to them that that makes them trusted. So then to say, oh yeah, we’re ready to, we’re ready to add this note taking app to our community calls or our client calls. It just that that’s the place where I have the most fear is actually not the tools having bias. I know they have bias and that is a place of concern and, and a place we can, can address it. But my mo the most fear I have is people still operating within that without any of the structures or policies or, or training to deal with both maybe bias and a tool they use and their own bias or their own issues, right? And it it accelerates the harm that that can be created in that. I mean, I want to use some of that to, to go to Justin and uh that’s something very closely related. Uh the, the uh the nonprofit leadership role, the responsibility of, of nonprofit leaders. I think it gets to a lot of what Amy was just talking about. But what, what do you, what do you see as the, the responsibility of nonprofit leadership in, in formulating these policies? But also in just, you know, making sure that the preconditions are there so that we, we can be successful in integrating artificial intelligence, whether we’re bringing an exterior, an outside tool or, or or building our own. Even that, that may be a, that may be a big lift for a lot of listeners. But, but generally the, the, the nonprofit leadership’s role. Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of the nonprofit leadership play today and I think we have to meet uh leaders where, where they’re at and, and I think the very first step and Amy mentioned this in the very beginning of the call is raising the the capacity of their knowledge and of their staff’s knowledge of how these tools work and uh what are the edges of the tools and how to apply them effectively in the flow of work. And um there is training available as, as an example, we have a four hour course on linkedin. You don’t need to do it all at once, but it’s actually pretty good. It’s for, it’s not for developers, it’s not for techies, it’s for front line program, staff, fundraising staff finance staff, the, the, the ed uh to really learn about how to think about these tools with that knowledge. Then you can take the next step, which is starting to engage, I think, simple ways to apply these tools to get on the uh on the ground experience of what they’re good at and what they’re not good at. Um you know, using things like uh from Microsoft. So I’ll mention, you know, BB or, or, or Microsoft Copilot to look at writing donor appeal letters or whatever the process may be, they can just start learning about these fundamental language models and what they’re good at. Um I think it’s important as an organization thinks about getting deeper into A I and really thinking about how do they apply it to their processes, whether that be fundraising, whether that be engagement with beneficiaries that they think really deeply about data uh and data classification and that, that, that gets a little sophisticated, but just ensuring that we’ve, we’ve got a strategy to use A I for the data that we want to use A I for and that we segment data that we do not want A I to reason on away. So start with, start with getting the basic skill skills built out. Um A lot of uh organizations I met I meet with are just at the very beginning stage of that, use the simplest tools to accommodate uh the job to get some experience and then start to think longer range around data, data, classification and more advanced scenarios that can be applied. Tony. Can I just, what’s that four hour course on uh Tristan? Let me just let me drill down on a free resource. I love free resources for our listeners. Tristan answers. It’s a linkedin course uh nonprofit uh A I fundamentals. But let me get that for you here. Ok, Tristan, go ahead. Yeah. Um Can I um I really like how Justin um initial uh said, you know, there’s a lot of nonprofit leaders plates already too in terms of responsibility. And I want to gently push um and answer your invite to, to call you in Tony um in, in the premise of the question which, which was what’s, what is the responsibility of, of nonprofit leaders now? And I would say yes, there, obviously, there’s a responsibility as Justin has illustrated that like we need to be better in terms of strategy um in terms of tech, in terms of A I um in general on how we fold these, these crucial tools in. But I would also say that there’s an equal and almost um larger responsibility on those who fund nonprofits. Um I think a lot of times in the nonprofits that I’ve worked with, interacted with and worked within um their operational and financial model has been very ham handedly built in a very um doctor Susan way, which doesn’t really make sense at times and it’s because a year after year, there are different grants, different fundings that require different things um at different times based on whatever the the hot new term is. Uh 1015 years ago, it was mentoring. So a lot of times everything was geared towards mentors. And I say that because this implies that um a lot of these nonprofits are already built on a structure that is very shaky. And so there’s a lot of other things that need to be done. But I do think um a big responsibility sits with folks who fund um nonprofits foundations. Um and also local governments, federal, the federal government in making sure that when they are pushing a grant or um putting out an RFP for a grant that says you need to fold in tech and you need to fold in A I in this way to get kids to learn or get kids in seats um in the classroom that you’re doing. So in a way that creates um longevity and solid um solid nonprofit organi operational work. Um And just doesn’t like slap an ipad in front of a kid. Um And I think that’s really, I used to work with boys and girls club. So that’s where I always default. Um But III I think that um I’ve based on my experience, it’s always been um a really weird way um of, of having um o going into a financial model um of an organization year after year because it’s like, oh, well, that we started doing that because last year’s grant asked for it and now we just do it into perpetuity. And so again, you have that little weird Dr Seuss style way of thinking. And I think um funders and um grant, um grant folks can do a lot by being very clear and very um forward thinking and how they are offering up these monies. It’s time for a break. Virtuous is a software company committed to helping nonprofits grow generosity. Virtuous believes that generosity has the power to create profound change in the world. And in the heart of the giver, it’s their mission to move the needle on global generosity by helping nonprofits better connect with and inspire their givers, responsive fundraising puts the donor at the center of fundraising and grows giving through personalized donor journeys. The response to the needs of each individual. Virtuous is the only responsive nonprofit CRM designed to help you build deeper relationships with every donor at scale. Virtuous. Gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising, volunteer marketing and automation tools. You need to create responsive experiences that build trust and grow impact virtuous.org. Now back to artificial intelligence for nonprofits redux, you know, that’s not only the mindset like this, this, it, it feels like they’re being strategic by saying, oh, yeah. Well, we were able to come, we were able to pitch that in a way that we got the fund, but then that’s changing their strategies all the time. It also back to the point before is meaning the data you have to work with inside your organization is OK. Well, two years, we structured it this way for two years, we structured it this way. Do we even have like a unique idea to connect these people and say, oh, they were in both of those programs, like our own data sets are messy and influenced by funders saying, oh, now we need you to collect these demographic markers, you know, and it’s, it’s we we as organizations are often pressured by those funders to do it the way they want because it’s easier for them. Um and tells the story, they want to tell, but that’s really, really messing up the data sets and the program kind of uh processes or, or business processes that we have in place. And I I just wanted to connect that to broader things that intens worked on and advocated for for many years from the equity guide specific to funders. And that is that funding technology projects takes time and it takes a lot more money than like $30,000 for whatever the licenses are for something, right? Like it’s not uncommon that an organization building a model, an internal use model. This isn’t some big flashy commercial thing. This is just for them to, you know, like I said before, identify program participants that maybe, you know, could use intervention it’s not uncommon that would take two dozen tries to get the right model in place right? To really make sure the algorithm is, is fine tuned that the outputs are appropriate. Well, you can’t go through two dozen models in, in three months, right? And then have something there. A nonprofit would need a couple of years. And our, our funders, there’s already plenty of funders saying like, oh, now we have this A I grant, you know, opportunity or is that grant gonna be comprehensive of the work to get their data in a good place to get their program, staff ready and trained to Justin’s Point. Every staff person really trained adequately on, on not just what are these tools but what’s a good prompt? What’s a good use case for this, right? All of those pieces so that they can adequately and materially contribute to, then what is this project we want to do? What is the best fit for us and how do we, how do we build it and, and just to add on and we’ll wrap up to Amy’s Point and Tristan’s Point A I hasn’t changed the fundamental physics of what makes a good technology project. I mean, it’s people, it’s process, it’s tools, it’s capacity building, it’s a long term strategy, all that is the same. Um And if your listeners are wondering, where do I even get started in understanding the language of this stuff? Uh Because you asked the question. It’s called Career Essentials in Generative A I it’s on linkedin, it’s free. Uh And I take it it’s, it’s pretty good. So I think it’s worth worthwhile for your listeners. Thank you, Justin. How about uh in 10 Amy, what resources for folks? I mean, hopefully they’re already going to the nonprofit technology conference where there are gonna be a lot of, uh there are a lot of sessions on artificial intelligence. I know because I’m gonna be interviewing a bunch of those folks. So this is, this is probably the second of, I don’t know, six or seven A I episodes uh in, in, in different uh around different subjects. But N 10, N as N 10 as a resource for learning A, we have lots of them. There’s um you know, work uh not workbook but like a guide. There’s of course, the equity guide, there’s some materials on the website. We have an A I course and other courses that talk about A I, there’s community groups where you can ask questions and of course the conference. But uh thanks to Microsoft and Octa gave us some um supporting funding and 10 along with Institute for the future and project evident are at the tail end of a community design process where we’ve worked with over 40 organizations um in this process to create an A I framework for organizations, whether you’re a nonprofit or not, who are trying to make decisions around A I and our framing for this is the framework for an equitable world. So it isn’t just that you are a 501 C three registered in the US, right? Or that you’re a grassroots organization in whatever country like if you want to live in that equitable world, then this is the framework that we can all share and work in together. Um We’re going to do a little preview at the end TC and have whoever comes to the session is gonna get to road test it with us and then we’ll publish it publicly after the NTC. Um So lots more and obviously, I’ll, I’ll share that with you when it comes out. But um what’s really, I think important from this is that it is a framework that uh is built on the idea that all of us are part of these decisions that all of us have responsibility in these decisions. Um And that all of us are accountable to building, right? This isn’t um you know, the quote unquote, responsible tech or this isn’t like this isn’t just for those projects where you’re, where you’re gonna do something good over here. This is whatever we’re doing, it’s gotta be good. It’s gotta be building us into an equitable world because what else are we doing here? Right. If it’s not for that. Um And so I’m excited for folks to get to use it. It’ll be published for free everywhere anybody use it. Please go, you know. Um, so lots more on that too. Amy. You are perfectly consistent with the framed quote that you have behind you. All of us are in this life together. You’re living your, you’re living your framed art. Uh, uh, I admire it. Uh, Justin, we have, we’ve got maybe 10 minutes left. What, what would you like to talk about? We haven’t, we haven’t touched on yet or go further on something we have. Well, no, maybe, maybe I’ll just um build a little bit on what Amy was the question you asked, what are, what are the resources available? So I think that’s pretty useful to the, to the organization. So, so one is, one is the training that I mentioned too is uh we just recently ran a nonprofit Leaders Summit where we, where we had 5600 people together. Uh uh about 4500 online, about 1000 in a room talking about how do we grapple with A I? How do, what are the use cases that make this make sense? How do we think about data security and privacy? And we’re going to continue to invest in in that? We’re going to be rolling that out more globally as well with uh events in Australia and others. But that convening and that dial and just getting the community and dialogue I think is so important. I I learned a ton from that. We’re also going to continue to push on affordability and making sure that uh we’ve got affordable access to our technology so that every organization can use things like Microsoft Copilot uh for, for free um providing, you know that they, they’ve got access to our nonprofit offers and then finally, innovation. And I, I’m, I’m interested looking at scenarios that span the sector where if we invest, once we can create a multiplier effect. And one of the areas that we’re, we’re partnering on is with Save The Children Oxfam and many other organizations on the humanitarian data exchange, which is a large data set used to help organizations coordinate humanitarian and disaster relief domestically and internationally in a more effective manner. Uh So our mission don’t overlap uh but that data set hasn’t been super useful to date, applying things like language models training on that and creating a tool set that is cross sector for many organizations, you’ll see us um continuing to invest in that way. And I look forward to ideas from our intent partners here on the phone as well as you know, the community at large on on where we can make bets that will really help the sector together. Uh move, move forward Tristan. What would you like to touch on or, or go deeper in? We’ve got uh we got the, it’s 78 minutes or so. Um You know, I, I think I just wanna underscore what, what Amy was talking about and that we’ve, we’ve all been working on. Um, which is the, uh, I’m a little tired of you underscoring Amy, Amy and you, we force each other. You know, I agree with you should have seen us, we work together. It’s getting a little dull. It’s a little dull. Now. You should have seen us when we were in office. Our desks were 20 ft away from each other and there was a constant, there was a worn line in between our desks and nobody wants to be in between in that 20 ft in that 20 ft space. Um I will say um being a part of the community group, what Amy was saying about working with 40 other organizations um to figure out what um a healthy and um robust and equitable processes for any organization to um interact with and um field A I is crucial and I’m, I’m so glad that we are able to be a part of it and we’re, we’re going to be um debut it at NTC. It’s something that I’ve learned a lot from just based on someone who again, like I said before, I came from youth development. My degree is in child psych. Um So, but I’ve learned a lot over the years um working with N 10, working at N 10. Um But I think um one thing that’s, that’s been uh really, really beneficial is learning from all those folks in the group and um a couple of things that did come up in when we were creating that framework, which uh was um that organizations are making all kinds of decisions every day today. Um And I, I will say that it kind of highlights that I, we are talking about A I and how it like will look sound and feel and how it looks. This is all kind of uh we’re not meaning it to be, but it’s all within a vacuum. Um And we can’t think like that. We can’t think of all of us who have now, we are four years out from 2020 our lives were forever changed and every nonprofit will have their own sad story to tell about how the um the pandemic impacted them. And I say that to say is that like none, no one was prepared for that. And so if we um keep on talking about or um playing around with this idea of A I is like, it’s going to solve problems or it’s going to sit in this world um in this vacuum, we’re not doing ourselves justice and we’re being very forgetful about the past that we just went through. And so if we’re able to instead consider how A I will interact with the dynamic world that we all live within, um That’s going to better behoove us um both individually, but also organizationally when we’re planning strategically. Um If that’s year after year for you, if that’s every five years, I don’t know what that is. Um So having that strong tech um baseline for folks. And then I think also the other thing is people in all roles are considering A I and aren’t sure how it applies to them. Um I think uh staff, we’ve read stories um that A I will replace workers but have no idea what to do with, you know, where, where that fear sits with them too. Um It should just add to their work and not replace them. And I think a lot of we’re seeing uh you know, I’m, I um am on tiktok and so, you know, that’s a whole other like bag of algorithms and like, you know, things that we can dissect and pull apart. But I do, there are a lot of stories of, you know, there are folks getting laid off left and right. And um I, I would have to, you know, that begs the question why generally, but also like, what is the role of A I in all of this too? Um I think it’s really interesting when layoffs happen at a time when A I is accelerating um in a lot of our worlds, whether it’s in tech and whether it’s in other sectors across the world. And I think that there is a lot to be done by organizations who don’t fall prey to like the siren song of like A I and are going into a clear minded and not saying, oh, well, we can cut out this department and put it in, put, um, you know, this learning module in or this, you know, I think that’s, that’s really where, um, you’re going to see a lot of organizations and commu, um, organizations and companies thrive as opposed to just, um, laying folks off a lot there. No, we’re, yeah, we’re, we’re taking it in. Yeah. No. And, and the reality is that I admire the, the consistency between you and Amy. Uh, and, and, and, and, and generally, I mean, I made fun of you, but what it shows is you’re all thinking the same way. You know, you’ve all got the, uh, the same concern for the nonprofit Human first, human first. You know, like we’re all humans and we’re all prioritizing um us as humans and if we start prioritizing other things and it’s not going to, um, go well, well, but at end to end, you’re, you’re walking the walking the talk. So, and consistently Amy, you want to check us out with, uh, all of us are in this life together. Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest thing I, I want folks to leave with is that, that future is not predetermined. We, we are not sitting down and saying, well, ok, like I’ll wait for my assigned robot to come tell me what to do, right? It, it is still up for all of us to write that every day. And the people who most need to have their sentence at the start of the article or whatever, you know, at the start of the book are the folks who are being told in a lot of different systemic media type ways that they do not get to have their sentence in the article, you know. And so I, I hope that nonprofits know this is both an opportunity to shape and influence as A I tools are being developed to shape and influence the tools that we build within our sector for ourselves with our communities. But it’s also a responsibility for nonprofits who are the ones often closest to and most trusted by those systemically marginalized communities who are experiencing the most real time harm to be the supporter that brings them into that work. They are not necessarily going to get tapped by uh a company to learn this or do whatever. Even though I hear Justin saying these, these, you know, opportunities are, are free and accessible. You as a nonprofit can say, we think we might build something. Can you be in our design committee? Can you work with us? We’ll make sure that we all learn together, right? As an organization, they’re already in relationship with they, they’ve, you know, maybe benefited from programs or services. You have the responsibility and incredible opportunity to be the conduit for so many communities to enter this, this quote unquote A I world. And that’s a really important I think gift uh you know that we have as a sector to, to be the ones helping make sure so much, so much more of the world is part of developing these tools and designing them to be accountable to us as people, their Amy Sample ward. Our technology contributor here at nonprofit radio and the CEO of N 10. Also Tristan Penn Equity and Accountability director at N 10 and Justin Spell Haug, new corporate vice president and Global head at uh Technology for Social Impact at Microsoft. My thanks to each of you. Thank you very much. Real pleasure. Thanks so much, Tony. Thanks Justin. I’ll see you in 20 ft. Thanks so much, Tony. Next week, the generational divide now, this is interesting uh because uh we’ve been promising this for a couple of weeks now and it hasn’t materialized. It’s very relieving to have someone, an associate producer who I can blame for this show having been promised the generational divide, having been promised for weeks on end and not coming through even though it doesn’t matter that the associate producer, Kate has nothing to do with booking the guests that the host takes care of that himself. That that’s irrelevant. I blame the associate producer and this, this show, the generational divide had better come through next week or there’s gonna be a shake up. I’m the one who just reads the script to either. Oh, yeah. Minimize the uh OK. Your title is not script reader it’s associate producer. Well, if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you look, I was slow on my cue. There I beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your support, generosity. Donor box. Fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org. And by virtuous, virtuous gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools. You need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow. Giving, virtuous.org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martinetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that information, Scotty. You’re with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for May 1, 2020: Real Estate & Racial-Equity DEI

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Jane Brody: Real Estate

How have markets been impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vicus Partners.




Tristan Penn: Racial-Equity DEI
Tristan Penn shares how Coronavirus has disproportionately hurt Black and Indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your nonprofit. Tristan is NTEN‘s community engagement and equity manager. (This is part of our 20NTC coverage.)



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[00:00:12.24] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:23.24] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is our first ever show in 487 that is not produced in studio. I put it together using a dizzy audacity and zoom. Let’s see how I did. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I throw is Anthill asthma. If I saw that you missed today’s show Real estate, how have markets being impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vikas Partners and Rachel Equity D I. Justin Pen shares how Corona virus has disproportionately hurt black and indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your non profit trust. In his end, tens community engagement and equity manager, this is part of our 20 and TC coverage. Tony Steak, too. Take a breath, were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is real estate. It’s a real pleasure to welcome to the show. Jane Brody She is executive director at Vikas Partners in New York City. Before Vikas, she helped launch a mentoring program serving over 10,000 Children and a foster care program to help over 8000 teenagers in the system make the transition to independence. She’s been a consultant to Ben and Jerry’s UNICEF, the American Red Cross, Coca Cola and the Special Olympics. She’s done stand up comedy company is at Vikas partners dot com. Jane Brody Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:29.84] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Great to be here.

[00:02:31.52] spk_1:
Real pleasure to have you tell me about your stand up comedy. I’ve done some of that. What’s what were your gigs? Where did you do?

[00:02:38.54] spk_2:
Well, I took a little class, and I always like to do stuff that kind of scares me a little bit and challenges may. So then, after I did the class and we did kind of Gotham startup, I did a couple open mic nights and I was invited back, and I liked it a lot. But apparently the owner of the club who booked me said, You have to bring 10 friends next time and next time. So I didn’t wanna have to, like, burden people with asking them to continue to watch me and follow May. And I realized very quickly that my humor was very regional, like I understood, you know, New York comedy specific. But it’s much started to be able to be funny and all the markets and how good the major comics are about sort of national humor, right? I enjoy it. I recently just improv class because I like doing those kinds of things. I think it makes you fresh and it challenges you.

[00:04:14.57] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, I’ve done stand up comedy and improv. I took a bunch of improv classes that the Upright Citizens Brigade and I took some stand up comedy classes with this Manhattan comedy school. Um, I’ve played Gotham, but only, you know, like you. It sounds like I do the new talent shows where Oh, you got a visitor there. Okay. Um, do talent shows? Yeah. We bring hers. Brings you gotta bring 10 people or 12 people or 15 people or something in orderto in orderto Get your stage time. Yeah, but I agree improv especially. You know, it’s very good for speaking confidence. I loved it. I think it helps me a lot. I like those. Did you did you try regional comedy outside New York? Is that how you?

[00:04:19.04] spk_2:
No. But we discovered that afford median income. Who’s been doing it for 15 years? And he’s told us to the story how he lived in his pinto, basically and traveled from city to city, Pittsburgh, all the small markets and when market his his bits than his time and then he’d go to the next city in the next city. I was like, I’m not gonna do that.

[00:05:19.94] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s hard to. It’s hard to make money at stand up comedy very few people to, and it’s true. You know, I’ve never even thought of it, cause I the only place I’ve ever done stand up is in New York City. I’ve never wanted to be regional or national, but absolutely true. I don’t I’m not sure people would get me outside outside the clothes. Maybe Westchester that would be about as far. Um, right. So So let’s talk about real estate. And, you know, our listeners are small and mid sized nonprofits. Um, now you you know, the New York City New your New York City market Are you able to generalize like to the t broader than that when we talk about

[00:05:22.42] spk_2:
course. Definitely. I think the same. Planning things and considerations Air true for nonprofits nationally. And I on the international board with other tenant rep brokers internationally. So I always used to having conversations.

[00:05:38.41] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, um and so what are we seeing? Real estate wise around the pandemic. What’s the impact

[00:05:47.80] spk_2:
of certainly some things that you would think there are a lot more sub lets that are hitting the market transactions air down. In New York City of, for instance, it’s been down 40% in the first quarter. I think that it’s gonna be a very rich landlord reaching for us market more than you know, a tighter market where Layla is gonna be a little more difficult. So they’ll be more flexibility

[00:06:16.90] spk_1:
when we come out of this. And people are looking again for real estate. That’s encouraging. On the 10 inside that there’s gonna be that kind of flexibility. Like you said, you know, landlords reaching out, you think.

[00:06:23.87] spk_2:
And also I would say the other great. A huge amount of space that will be available will be retail. It’s gonna be a lot longer for retail to come back because of restaurants and all the other stores. That just a change of pattern of how people can access those spaces is gonna be very different.

[00:06:44.24] spk_1:
Um, when we you know, if any organization is thinking about changing real estate or just use, I guess maybe even just using their existing real estate when when we end up going back to offices. What other considerations there? How do you think things have changed in terms of office space usage?

[00:07:03.50] spk_2:
I think some of the considerations of the large brand tech companies, household names, air changing the amount of physical space per employee so typically was 175 square feet per employee. Now it’s going up to 300 square feet. Does that mean that they’ll be taking more space? I don’t think necessarily. I think people will be varying worked times and changing how many people can use space to a different time. They’ll also be technological impacts. For instance, people will be relying more on their handheld devices than that, necessarily having centralized computer systems, touch lists, entry to spaces, booking of conference rooms, anything where there’s high touch experiences. I think also just the way that people interact. There won’t be as many large group meetings, and the way that we work together will be very different. For a while, you

[00:08:06.40] spk_1:
mentioned booking conference rooms. What you mean? Like, if there’s a, uh, there’s booking a reservation system outside the room and lots of people touch it, is that

[00:08:16.84] spk_2:
it actually, or, you know, touchless check in. Sometimes people hand you and I have had to check in when you go into a space for security. So I think some of those things will be rethought and they’ll be more innovations along the way that we work together in a virtual way. And I think people’s ability to work at home and the office will be expanded. We’ve all adjusted, and we might have several waves of what’s gonna come ahead. We don’t really know.

[00:08:44.04] spk_1:
You know

[00:08:44.26] spk_2:
what I think we’re all anxious to get back to work and be together.

[00:08:47.85] spk_1:
You said, um, typical was 175 square feet per per employee. I don’t that’s that. That sounds like a lot, but is that the average is the average cubicle 175 square feet of space?

[00:09:26.94] spk_2:
Uh, roughly. I mean, there’s lots of different ways they call it bench seating. If you’ve seen lots of staff in small desks in front of them, that could be a slow is 100 per person or 75 square feet per person. I think it’s gonna be more generous than it was before, and we’d have large bullpen seating with lots of people in rows. I think that’s gonna look different. And also, I think they’ll be more spacing between desks and the physical nous of space changed.

[00:09:33.85] spk_1:
Yeah, I e. You know, you said, you think it’ll it could go as high as like 300 square feet per person, which is almost almost double the 1 75

[00:09:43.10] spk_3:

[00:09:50.74] spk_2:
not sure are non profit clients conduce that as as generously, Yeah, but that’s what I’m getting at right. I think it depends on what are non province use the space for. So that’s part of determining what the next steps for the non profits are. You do you have to have a large H Q like mothership. Do you need small offices? And in the various communities you’re serving, what will be the physical footprint of the space that you need to have some fulfill? Your mission, I think, is kind of part of the new sort of long term strategic planning into Cove it and in general, for non profits.

[00:12:18.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice oven experienced partner You, JJ, Doom and Affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com. Now back to real estate with Jane Brody, and I see I fix that mistake with Jane Brody’s name. This audacity is so you can get so compulsive with it. It’s so alluring to take out every, um and on then. But if I if I take all those out, you’re gonna wonder. Who the hell am I listening to? Where’s tony? Sums and ours and his mistakes. So I’m not taking out everything. That is a slight imperfection. Some some things. You know what? Some things have got to stay the same. Every damn thing cannot change that. We’re accustomed to its It’s doing settling. I mean, there’s enough changes already to non profit radio. I’m keeping in the arms in the eyes and the okays. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I’m keeping those in, um, there. I’m keeping that in. Some things have just gotta remain the same. I am not perfect in the way I talk. And by now, after 487 shows, you don’t expect me to be so the hell with audacity, ease, intricacies and perfect ability. I’m not taking advantage of it all anyway. It’s time for a break. No. Anyway, here’s more back to real estate with Jane Brody. When should we start talking to our existing landlord about whether we’re going to stay or about renewing? How early should that conversation start?

[00:12:34.84] spk_2:
It’s really two pronged approach. A lot of people think Oh, I haven’t talked to my landlord and they go towards very close to the end of the least. That’s not really the best model because it leaves you kind of trapped, dealing directly with your Lambert. What the best approach is a year, two years, a year and 1/2 before your lease is expiring, kind of figuring out what you really need the space or and what the purpose and function of your space. You have the right spaces. It’s the right size, or you’re in the right market in the right community and then engaging a broker which has no cost to you. The commission’s air baked into the deal, and what you do is you have your broker find you at least two or three options that you like. So you go on on tours, understand the market, see what your space would cost across the street, in the same area you like to be in, you get a negotiated, non binding letter of intent that your broker can work with you on. And then once you have a deal in place, then you can go to your existing landlord. We call it kind of a stocking horse in the trade, which is here’s something that I could get if I have to move, can you beat it? can you match it? What can you do with this existing opportunity against what? Staying in place? Most people want to renew and stay in place. And your broker can also negotiate that with your landlord. So you wanna have sort of two tracks. The best is at least a year and 1/2 a year into place because it takes probably a month to find the right space. You negotiate the letters of intent, take you at least a month to do the lease, and then if you have a build out, that’s four or five months. So that’s a good amount of time. Plus, everybody has Stakeholders may have you the board involvement the various teams in your organization. Does this fit the needs of the organization, and then you have to kind of engage everyone in the process.

[00:14:56.64] spk_1:
So where you call a stalking horse, I will just call leverage, right? You want to have. You won’t have another deal in hand that you can present to your current landlord and say, Look, you know, I could move, but everybody knows you don’t really want to move right. I mean, it’s a big hassle moving, sure, but you want to have some leverage over the over the person? Absolutely. So I can see why you got to start, like a year and 1/2 in advance,

[00:15:19.11] spk_2:
or I just want to make one other point. Tony. Some people are afraid to challenge their landlord because my landlord’s so great. He’s been a donor to my organization, and I think, uh, I think sometimes nonprofits are intimidated by that, But I people very much treated as separation of church in ST and ST you make a donation to something you believe in and on the other part of the isle you can certainly negotiate a least one has nothing to do with the other.

[00:15:31.87] spk_1:
And you made the point that a broker is free to the tenant, right?

[00:16:13.13] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, that Brooklyn tony that that works from a from a Do you else to end point is commission is baked into the transaction, and it’s a very old schtum. So in every transaction, there’s a landlord broker, an attendant rap broker. If you don’t have a tenant rep broker, and basically you’re just handing the condition completely over to the landlord broker, and I like to kind of talk about in terms of the wars. Wouldn’t wanna have one lawyer kind of representing both sides of the equation. You can. So you look for somebody who understands your work in your mission and can act on your behalf and, well, looking at the same data. So that’s another thing people think. Well, let me hire Let me get three or four people running around for me, but it doesn’t really work that well because we all look a co star, which is a proprietary database that we all subscribed. Teoh.

[00:16:31.94] spk_1:
Okay, so everybody’s got access to the same listings. What? You said that in any community, that’s nation

[00:16:37.28] spk_2:
yet it’s national, its international. Okay,

[00:16:39.91] spk_1:
okay. All right, So now all right. So we know we should start, like, maybe two years, a year and 1/2 in advance of the expiration of our least. So now what do we need to be thinking about in terms of our new space Or, you know, our existing space?

[00:16:55.26] spk_2:
Well, one thing that I think is really important is a good match with right land board. So I have just a couple of examples that really kind of illustrate this one is this organization I worked with? They they, uh, took in donations for babies. 03 year olds. They would get strollers and books and clothing, toys, and people would come with you could imagine garbage bags full of treasures. And then they would come to the building full of all their stuff in their hands, cribs everything and come into the lobby and go up in the elevators and make the donation on. And then the clients would come with not themselves or just their baby. They would bring five or six people because, you know, day care is a huge challenge for low income families. So a particular Landler didn’t like all that additional foot traffic,

[00:17:47.69] spk_1:
right? Probably bags of stuff being hold onto the elevator to Right?

[00:19:07.24] spk_2:
Right. So you’re crowding my other tenants. You’re crowding my elevator, you’re holding things up. So I was able to find them a landlord that adores what they do. They actually make donations, they help them with all kinds of support. And I recently ran into the landlord at an event, and they’re like Jane finding more tenants like this. We love what they dio and I have another case where I worked with this organization called Chess in the Schools. Wonderful organization had been in the building 17 years, and they had this, like, huge 12,000 foot space that was shaped like a pizza pot. I mean, how somebody designed this thing with slices as the various zones, but it was really expensive rent for them. They had downsized, but they had this, like, really strange requirement that once a week, 80 young people high school kids came to play chest, so they needed a certain kind of space. The landlord worked so hard to keep them in the building. He he helped me find the space within the building that was 4500 feet, renovated the space for them. And then there was no lag way leaving their old space and moving out of two years earlier their existing lease and gave them a brand new lease going 10 years, four. Very unusual. So if you get lucky with those kind of connections, so I always try to find landlords that are the right match for clients, I think it makes a big difference,

[00:19:28.74] spk_1:
and you have to be upfront about what your work is so if there are gonna be families coming through, You know, with kids, you know, the class A space landlord, you know, may not want that because they don’t want Children in the lobbies or if it’s gonna be folks with disabilities. And you know, some landlords may not be at all sensitive to that, and others may be completely embracing of that. So yes, true, we’ll be upfront about what kind of traffic you’re gonna create if it’s not strictly an office environment.

[00:20:13.39] spk_2:
And that’s really educating your broker to really understand your organization. And I kind of think of it as kind of putting that mission on my back and trying to, like, think about what that executive director or board member needs. I’m working with an adoption agency right now and one of the things that was really important to them. And I really thought a lot about this when I when I speak about this particular client, is they have birth mothers who are, you know, young women. Sometimes there are, you know, compromise situations. They’re kind of a lot of anxiety around giving your baby up for adoption and going to like a mainstream building where you’ve got turnstiles. Intense security screenings would be could be intimidating. So finding them a sort of quieter block building where they could walk in themselves, created in the best way. And also there’s confidentiality issues. There’s programming. So how can it be very front facing an appropriate for that particular client and meets the needs of the organization?

[00:21:14.64] spk_1:
Okay, yeah, I see. Just maybe just even giving their name at a security desk is, I don’t know, intimidating or off putting to a clientele like that

[00:22:20.64] spk_2:
or shelling a driver’s license or so really kind of matching what you’re trying to accomplish in this space. And I also think understanding what you’re using the space for Israeli import, you know? Are you doing classrooms or you’re doing training? Are you doing touchdowns? Space for your feet fieldworkers? I had one particular client who ah, was an arts organization. After School Arts Organization. It was created in the seventies when all the arts organizations were taken. All the art teachers were taken out of the school systems, so these two former teachers started organization and they hire freelance artists to come into schools, you know, lovely idea. Filling a need and then the schools would contract for these part time workers. This and they kind of grew the organization unwto through little tiny apartments that they were renting in the community in the city. So this executive director said, let me create one central place for the organization, a place where the artist can come, receive their materials, have training, have collaboration. And it’s really changed the environment of the organization and the way that the employees and the artist kind of bond on having a ton, equal footing and a connection in a place to be together.

[00:22:44.04] spk_1:
All right, Jane, um, so let’s talk about some common mistakes that you see that non profits, you know, can hopefully avoid,

[00:23:27.94] spk_2:
I would say typically timing, not having enough period of time to think about your space. So we talked about a year and 1/2 or two years. I’ve had people call May I’ve got a month left to my least. What should I dio? Okay, that’s certainly not doesn’t put you in the driver’s seat, right? Making sure that you have all the stakeholders involved in the process. The development people, your board, your your staff, understanding what you’re trying to accomplish in your space search being isolated and just working through the operations people. That’s really important. Another important part is that you could afford the space and that it fits with your budget. I mean, certainly Cove. It has been a real lesson and understanding the financial impact of things like rent to those air key mistakes.

[00:23:44.91] spk_1:
These mistakes, we’re gonna be reduced because we’re raising people’s consciousness about about them. All right, Um, all right, so I mean, I love it. You hit this a couple times, but you said that you can’t stress enough the importance of starting early. So you you have time. It’s not a crisis. You’re not trying to find space and negotiate a deal in three or four months, which may not even be doable,

[00:25:35.69] spk_2:
I think also, I want to mention just another example. I worked with a food pantry early on, and it was really interesting this particular organization, great organization, New York Common Pantry. And they had received a grant to help senior citizens receive food distribution through senior citizen centers. So it was a new program. They were gonna have vans leaving the central location going out to these new communities and providing food. So when we started looking for space and understanding what they could do, you started learning a lot about crazy things. Like if you get all this food and then your new distributed the weight of the food and the canned goods and all the foods that will be distributed could be really important on the weight of a building, so being in a second floor wouldn’t work. So we ended up being in a ground floor small warehouse, and then they had some other programs. Programmatic needs counseling. Nutrition program really split how they ended up solving the real estate. We had office in one location and food distribution in the vans and a different area. So sometimes the way that you solve the program programmatic needs can look different because of the the whole state weight breaks out. So it’s all pen of a learning experience some time

[00:25:42.44] spk_1:
and creative creative experience. All right. Jane Brody, she’s executive director and Vikas Partners. They’re at Vikas partners dot com. Jane. Thanks so much for being guest. Thanks for sharing.

[00:25:51.79] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Be safe.

[00:27:57.30] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software their accounting product. Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. You have a free 60 day trial on offer. It’s on the listening landing page. That’s the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take two. Take a breath, take a breath. Relax. You need to take care of yourself, not just once. Try to do each day, sit with yourself and clear your head. Focus on your breath. Meditate, nap. Whatever is good for you. Be good to yourself in a healthy, soothing, calming, loving way. There’s so much shit going down, and so much is being asked of you That is strange and difficult. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. You need it. Please take care of yourself, and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for racial equity. D I welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. You know the conference had to be canceled, but you also know we are persevering virtually. We’re sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin for a free 60 day trial. My guess now is just in pen. He is a community engagement and equity manager at n 10. The host of 20 NTC. Justin, welcome.

[00:27:58.74] spk_4:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:28:00.60] spk_1:
It’s great to have you. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we’re able to work this out. Virtually thanks so much. Yes. No, you’re You’re well and safe ing in Portland, Oregon.

[00:28:25.54] spk_4:
You know, I am. It’s some, you know, we’re all living a very new reality, So it’s definitely something that, uh, was kind of new to me. I worked 2 to 3 days a week, um, from home. But now I’m doing it all day. Every day

[00:28:33.04] spk_1:
of misery. Were maybe six years. Hopefully not seven, but maybe five for six days. Um, so you had really interesting topic? Ah, critical. Critical announces you what worked for us. A critical reflection of intends racial equity rooted. D I work? Yeah, I think this is obviously your responsibility at and then as

[00:28:50.28] spk_4:
that is, Okay,

[00:29:28.14] spk_1:
um and I’m still, you know, this D I is I’m 58 years old, so I didn’t grow up with this. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it, talking about it, struggling with it for and, you know, maybe not long enough, but three for 3 to 5 years, I’d say some ran. Um, so I have a pretty basic question, but I want to get it off my chest. What off, Mike? I wanted I want to get it out. Why? Why do you have to say racial equity rooted D I work, right? I would think that that’s just subsumed in D I

[00:31:10.70] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, I think there’s a lot of things, you know, I wanna give space because we only have 25 minutes. I could definitely talk for 25 minutes just specifically about this. However, I do think because we center all of our, um, racial our excuse me, our d I work with rooted in racial equity. It’s important to us because I think at the end of the day, there are a lot of systemic and oppressive things that have happened not only in this country, but also, um, within the nonprofit sector that really do effect people of color first. So, for example, there’s this idea of intersectionality, which does happen and is a thing. But also, like, you know, you can be a, um, a white woman who is just and still get a lot more privilege than a black woman who was disabled. So, um, so that’s just a just a bit of it all, too. And that’s why we center it with racial equity to explicit. Absolutely, Absolutely. And that’s not to say that it’s a binary where we are saying that racial equity above everything else and we’re not we’re gonna brush everything else off the table. There are other identities that, um, people identify with that air just is important. And, um, they they have their own, you know, marginalization within their own communities to, and those need to be honored as well to and considered. And, um, really makes in and made sure that they’re being prioritized during certain circumstances.

[00:31:47.94] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, well, you know, we we may end up going more than 25 minutes, because I Something’s according to meet it. What about this? This pandemic. How do you feel? Like this is highlighting. We’re gonna get there are. Actually two things I wanna ask you is exacerbating. Yeah, I want to start with almost over the highlight. How do you feel? Like this pandemic and the country and I’m focused on Let’s focus on the U. S. Yeah, uh, that has the reaction to it. They’re working from home. The we could talk about the s. My gosh, I could see how we usually go. 2125 minutes.

[00:31:52.27] spk_4:

[00:32:03.44] spk_1:
about the loan programs? Absolutely. Wherever you wanna go, How do you feel? Like the pandemic and the response to it have highlighted. Yeah, inequities.

[00:34:11.38] spk_4:
What a great question. Wow. So I can only speak from personal experience or just the identities that I bring to the table. So, um, I am I’m half black and I’m half Navajo. So my dad is black, and my mom is Navajo. And so, um, being that bi racial professional in the non non profit sector world, um, you know, as a black man and as a Navajo man as well, you know, you see these things and you have these very direct ties to the communities with which you navigate in and reside in the one thing that comes to mind is, um you know, all of my Navajo relatives. So I have a lot of member who relatives that are still on the rez on the New Mexico side. Um And so, um, one thing that’s really striking to me is that, you know, the last I mean, the numbers change every day, right? With these covert 19 cases. Um however, the last time I read it, um, it was, um per capita, the amount of cases after New York and after New Jersey, the next, um, the next amount of cases was the Navajo Nation under. Really? Yeah. And so that’s I mean, there’s their cases per capita, and I want to make sure that that portion Exactly. And so that’s really concerning because I have family on the rez. And also, um, it’s, um It kind of it speaks to the, um the years of historic, um, oppression And, um, you know, genocide that has happened with it within indigenous communities. Um, and how there has been, um, baked into, um, you know, communication and treaties and promises broken promises by the federal government. Why? This has kind of made, you know, this situation that we have now on the Navajo reservation. And I’m sure, um uh, among other tribes, something that is really, really pressing right now, there’s probably accounts everywhere. And so I just

[00:34:27.37] spk_1:
health care. Health care has been a serious negative problem. Serious problem on the indigenous peoples for generations, right? The health care on the reservations.

[00:36:01.23] spk_4:
And so it just ends up being something that, like, I hold near and dear to my heart because I think of all my family members that are on the rez and live on the Navajo Nation. Um and also just, you know, um, the the way in which, um, you know, the the federal government supports or doesn’t support the Navajo Nation, never being its own sovereign nation. And so I think there’s, um um this is really kind of, like, pushed everything to the forefront of what is wrong with the systems. And I think it also, you know, on the other side of things, you know, you see now as that this data is coming out, those who have passed away and died to come, Teoh, you know this illness, um, the majority of them are black people. And so that’s also concerning for me, Um, that, you know, I think that there is, um, something to be said for that. And I think, you know, that kind of also lends Teoh. There are people who aren’t able to, you know, work from home. They have to be out there to. And so I think it’s very interesting in a data point that, um as hopefully when all of this subsides will be able to look at and really sit through and figure out and find I mean, I would be willing to put money on, you know that. You know, people of color indigenous communities, black people and indigenous communities probably were disproportionately affected by this. This pandemic

[00:36:09.24] spk_1:
in terms of health care, unemployment, yes. Businesses closed, I

[00:36:35.13] spk_4:
write. And also systemic and systemic. You know, an institutionalized racism that has policies, practices that our priority not prioritizing them, or are looking over these communities to as well. If it goes past the health care and Maurin two systems as well, it’s not built for them. Um, because it wasn’t with them in mind. It was with white folks in line,

[00:38:25.22] spk_1:
right? Right. Okay. Yeah, we could We could certainly go hours on that. Yeah. Um, all right. I’m yeah, and I don’t And so I mentioned, you know, highlighting and exacerbating. I Yeah, I think when When the dust settles and we look at disparities in outcomes, we’re gonna find immigrants and indigenous folks disproportionately impacted in terms of, uh, well, yeah, the institutional racism that you’re you’re bringing out and just in terms of the more surface store things that that, you know, like health care and help get unemployment lost jobs. And I mean from I have a small business. And so I see the way those that loan program is, at least in these opening weeks of it or whether I should say we’re recording on according on Tuesday, April 21st and so far, the opening program the opening, uh, indications around the S B A. Programs are that, you know, big businesses air getting it, yes, and most likely predominantly wiped. Run. Yeah, and and small businesses that I think Congress intended it to help or are falling short. At least that’s yeah, that’s what’s happening in this first tranche of 250 billion. We’ll see what happens when there’s the absolutely next the next level, but I’m sure you’re right. You know, the because the system is rigged against and built in favor of Yeah,

[00:38:26.63] spk_4:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:38:28.16] spk_5:
yeah, yeah. All right.

[00:38:30.62] spk_3:

[00:38:32.02] spk_1:
so we’ve been 20 minutes already, and we haven’t even gotten to only about it away. About the time you gotta you gotta host that. I wanted to talk about the pandemic in these terms

[00:38:42.27] spk_4:
or yeah,

[00:39:16.89] spk_1:
I haven’t done anything, but also so thank you. Yeah, but don’t worry about the time that you got a lackluster host to deal with. It’s my my shortcoming. Um all right, let’s talk some. Let’s talk about in 10. Yeah. Um What? Ah, well, all right. Before we get into the details of in 10 how do you how? Open someone start this conversation in their own organization? Yeah, I feel like it’s systemically institutionally. Wait, Run. Well, that would be out. They wouldn’t feel it. That would be obvious. But wait, wait, wait. Policies. Yeah. Um, how did they kick off this conversation?

[00:39:23.82] spk_4:
You know, tony, that’s a really great question, too. And there’s a variety of ways to bring it up. Teoh, I just got done reading a really good book. Actually, that Amy shared with me. Um, about how Teoh Stopgap

[00:39:38.86] spk_1:
award and simple words are social media and technology contributor here on non profit radio. Okay, just for the for the 45 people out of the 13,000 who may not know who any simple

[00:42:00.09] spk_4:
Yes, She gave me a book about institutionalized racism and institutionalized bias on how that manifests itself in the workplace and more importantly, what you can do about it. So it’s one thing toe like, recognize it and be like, This is wrong. And this is happening. Another thing to start, um, to start bringing it up within your organization is at the root of your question is you know, what can you do? And there’s a variety of things that you do. I think the first thing that comes to mind, um, that I read in this book was the book. It’s called Recognizing Institutional bias. Um, I may have to, like, follow back up with you. I know it’s something like that, but I breathe through it, um, so I’ll I’ll give you the title of it later. Um, but she um But this book talks about, you know, it’s one thing. Excuse me to go about it as an individual, but it is. I mean, it’s kind of like one of those things where safety in numbers and so being able tohave an ally or someone within the organization that you can also push this work or were, too. So it means asking some hard questions, and it means asking some hard questions of yourself as well to. And I think that’s the key point. Um, as well is realizing that, you know, we all have implicit, um, biases that we have in our head. Um, you know, when we think of cats, we think of cats, as you know, very. You know, Castile. They kind of take care of themselves. Some cats aren’t like that, though, you know, And so I think going into it, we have to really check those ideas about certain people, people from communities that have been informed, those implicit biases. We have to make sure that we’re good with ourselves or not even that we’re good with them and that we’ve reconciled them but that were aware of. So I think that was a really big take away point for me. Um, you know I’m 1/2 black man. I’m a Navajo man. Um, I have implicit bias, you know, everyone does. And so I think being able to understand that before pushing this work is really key to this. You have to really kind of strip yourself bare and understand that, um in order to push this work forward, you’re going to have to do some self work as well.

[00:42:17.87] spk_1:
Implicit biases. Is that not the same as stereotypes?

[00:42:20.30] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Some people call stereotypes. Yeah,

[00:42:24.77] spk_1:
you gotta You gotta be conscious of your own stereotypes.

[00:42:58.50] spk_4:
Exactly. We don’t politicize. Yeah. And sometimes those stereotypes are very obvious to you. You you think about them. But also, there are some that are very deep within your subconscious that come out without knowing, too. And so then it’s one of those things where you start. You have to be reflective and think, Gosh, where is this coming from? Where is the stock coming from? And where is this belief coming from? And really dig down deep into it. Um, I think another thing to that, um, when you push this type of work forward or are start to prioritize this work you have to think about you and I were talking about this earlier is, you know, the climate of the organization. Um And where in what? In the environment of the organization, some organizations have their heels in the ground, and I have experienced organizations like that where their heels air in the ground and they’re like, we have a D I committee that meets once a month and that’s it. Check box checked. We’re done with it. We don’t have to do anymore work. We don’t have Teoh, you know, examine the policies and practices in the environment that we put forward with an organization. So that’s a non starter for a lot of people. And in those

[00:43:37.63] spk_1:
organisms, on top of that r R D I committee, it has black black people in it. Yeah, so we’ve We were an equitable organization. Exactly to blacks on our equity committee.

[00:46:01.08] spk_4:
Exactly. And so I think those are things that I have experienced those there is half organizations where, you know, that’s the thing we call tokenism within. Let I wouldn’t even say within the d I world. That’s just tokenism, period with in whatever world you want to live in. And so that’s That’s a tokenism thing. And sadly, I’ve fallen victim to that in my earlier years of, you know, when I was a young professional of, you know, really being eager and wanting to please white leadership, Um, and realizing that I wasn’t pushing forward d I work. I was not contributing to it, but I was a victim of it. Um, and it was a system much larger than the the actual work that I was putting forward, and it was really sad, and I had to remove myself from those situations and those token izing situations. There was once a month d I meetings where I was that the token eyes per person of color that was having to bear my soul about some very, very deep and emotional topics. And so I think a lot of times, you know, you have to as a person who’s pushing this forward specifically, and I’m you know, I say this directly to people of color and organizations and non profit organizations who are the one to, you know, third person of color in the organization. I mean that that’s a big, big hill to climb to, and it’s not insurmountable. But what I will say is, you know, you have to be able to check in with yourself as a person of color and as a, um, as a professional of color, Um, be a black being Beit, indigenous, being Asian, um, agent. And so I just think that you have to check in with that because and be very hyper vigilant and aware that, um, some folks may want to token eyes you in a way and being ableto have, um, practices and things in your back pocket, too. Disrupt knows those policies and procedures and practices and then either move forward or remove yourself from the situation.

[00:46:09.88] spk_1:
Checking in with yourself means, like the official question. Is this even worth doing at this organization?

[00:46:11.41] spk_4:
Right. And maybe

[00:46:12.44] spk_1:
Do I have any ally or there are other potential allies? Okay, go to potential allies, and they turned out not to be allies. Is it even worth doing in this organization like you say, you remove yourself, Go elsewhere?

[00:47:29.58] spk_4:
Yeah, and it because. And that’s really sad, too, because I think a lot of us in the nonprofit world are, um, you know, we are so passionate about the work that we dio We wanna, you know, we kind of pride ourselves. And I did this for a very long time when I worked in use development. You pride yourself on the number of hours that you work. You pride yourself on working overtime. You pride yourself on for the bare minimum, you do that. And then you have larger organizations that are typically white Run. That’s hold you hostage to that belief. And that’s really and that was I mean, I heard that maybe two or three years ago, someone said it much more beautifully than I just did. But on I wish I get credit them, but I forget who it was, but it really is those, I mean, and that’s a very big systemic, um, problem within the nonprofit world is that, you know, a lot of times white leadership will hold those those middle level, middle level, direct service middle management folks. Um, be it you know, people of color or not to their own jobs. To that to that own passion. I

[00:48:03.03] spk_1:
thought you loved our work. Exactly. We asked you when you came here three years ago. What moved without the work and, you know, using that work against them in some fashion time for our last break turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard even through the Corona virus cacophony. They know exactly what to do to make it happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for racial equity, D I? In fact, this runs long because it’s a good conversation with Tristan that I did not want to stop. The total show is roughly 75 minutes,

[00:48:15.97] spk_4:
and it’s like the byline of you know, non profit works. Sometimes, sadly, is like we’re not in this for the paycheck, you know,

[00:48:23.25] spk_1:
Passion, passion, shaming.

[00:50:25.86] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so I mean, and so when you put you take that in and of itself, within the nonprofit world, and then you layer on a racial inequity that’s like also, you know, people are stuck folks of color. Black folks are stuck with it between a rock and a hard place within their job. They want to make money toe like live to pay their bills. They want to have a job to do those things. Yet they’re stuck in an organization that is holding them hostage to the work that they’re doing, and so that that’s something that I think is I went off on a tangent. But I also think that you have to be very aware is this Is this organization ready for this? Is this organization really about this work? Because it’s gonna strip a lot of things bare for the organization that they may not like, you know, And that made that push against that culture dominate that white culture, dominant belief and systems that have built the organization toe what it is today. So, for example, it means, you know, how are we working? Are we working every single meeting toe have some sort of end results? Um, you know where we come to a conclusion at the end of every meeting? That’s white, dominant culture in and of itself. Sometimes we have meetings that don’t have a big or clear and result, and we need to be okay with that. Um and so I think about that. And I think about my past, you know, roles that I have held in use development and how many times I’ve been in a meeting where it’s like we have to get X and Y and Z done by the time. But in two hours we have to pound out a budget in two hours on DSO. I think being able to work, and I’m not saying that like and 10 is one of those, you know, shining places on the hill. But I love it here because Amy gives us the space and latitude to sometimes not have toe have meetings that maybe we didn’t come to a clear conclusion or that there’s not an expectation that we have a solid, you know, um, a solid solution that we come out of

[00:50:31.72] spk_1:
their outcome by end of me and meetings or just a microcosm of the total work, that because the work is constantly a journey absolutist repeatedly, you know, it’s not done at the end of a year or 18 months. And, you know, like you were saying different example though, you know, check, we’ve done our We’ve done our diversity work

[00:50:50.11] spk_4:
right right

[00:51:06.97] spk_1:
now. Now, we just banned the committee or the committee Lance to be six months every six months or something like that. Yes, the meeting is just a microcosm of the of the overall structure and progress and journey you say in the description of the program, then 10 journey. It’s never It’s not really never completed.

[00:51:15.12] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s never done. And it definitely doesn’t live solely with me. And I think this is the one thing that I particularly like, Um, in this this role that I’m in within 10 and working so closely with Amy with D I work is the idea that she and I are a team, um, working towards this, I think a lot of times and organizations, they token eyes, a person of color, and they’re like, Oh, you’re the equity person. You’re the equity director. You’re the X, y and Z, which is fine. It’s great. I’m all for that. But a lot of times there are situations where or organizations that put it all on that person. And they’re like

[00:51:52.79] spk_1:
the person has no with no authority, exact lots of accountability, but no authority,

[00:53:04.39] spk_4:
right? And so what I really like and appreciate is that Amy pushes me, and I pushed back on things that we’re working towards and, um You know, I say I pushed back, but also she and Ira will learn personality anyway, So a lot of times, um, she’ll peek around the corner from our office when we when we worked in offices. Um, you know, and be like I was thinking something like, Oh, my gosh, I was just thinking that. So I think it also helps be specifically with her. And I really are, um our relationship is that she and I are just very similar. Um, and, um, I think that does help. But I also appreciate her as a leader being able Teoh ask questions and prioritized racial equity not only when she’s thinking about D I stuff, but when she’s thinking about the budget. When she’s thinking about NTC when she’s thinking about, um, you know, all of our I t endeavours, all of our community pieces. Um, I appreciate that because that says to me as a person of color and more importantly, a someone who’s, um, you know, a ah person who’s working for is that Oh, this person’s in it for riel. Yeah, Amy talks. The talk walks the walk, and again, it’s not toe like, you know, game points with a Me, too. Because for that you

[00:53:18.07] spk_2:
were you making

[00:53:18.66] spk_1:
the point of the importance of leadership that has to be leadership support by in, you know, whatever it’s called or else you are, Well, not the person committee or the entire endeavor is just gonna be, you know, without without teeth,

[00:54:48.24] spk_4:
right? Yeah. And so that’s what I appreciate her as a leader, even though I’m the person that has the role that pushes it forward and stewards that she’s right there with me helping me and asking those questions on an executive level and on a board level two and prioritizing those questions. And so that’s something that I really appreciate as an employee, but also separately from that, like as a person of color, as an indigenous man, as a black man. I appreciate those things, Um, and so it’s it’s kind of 11 of those situations where, you know, talk is cheap, you know? And, um, you know, she walks the walk, and I really appreciate that. I’ve, you know, worked with a lot of white leadership in past organizations that I worked in, where they talked to talk. They love a good. You know, feel good session about D I stroking their own egos and all the things. But when it comes, it comes down to it when there are policies that they’re pushing forward and meetings that are directly, you know, working against racial equity, that’s not it, you know? And so those are examples that I think of where I’m like. Gosh, I wish I would have spoken up. Um, but but, you know, within 10 I don’t feel that. And that’s something that I I’m gonna hold on to it and hold onto it tight, because I know that this is a good thing. And I’m really, um, you know, glad and blessed to work on a place that prioritizes those things.

[00:55:13.17] spk_1:
Can you tell a story of an example of something that on its surface is not inequitable by? Maybe you pointed it out, Or if not, use something. It became obvious that it is inequitable. Yeah, you brought it to the organization and a chain jumping

[00:57:48.23] spk_4:
right. So I’ll give an example, and it doesn’t really point out a specific person, but it points out, Is Berries easy thing that no one had really found it within the organization within our organization. I know a lot of people think, Oh, wow. It’s like this multi tiered, you know, organization with lots of people. There’s only 15 of us, so, I mean, the way we work is very collaborative anyway. And so, um, once we have a job, sport where folks immunity are able to post open positions on the community s so a lot of times it’s organizations that will want to post a open position that they have on for the longest time, we didn’t, um we as an organization didn’t have, um, a requirement for salary. So when people when there was a salary field for organizations to put in, um, you know what? How much this person was going toe radio? Absolutely. They leave a blank, right? D o e dependent upon experience. Um, and if you look at that, too, seems pretty like, oh, standard. We see it all the time with, like, you know, you know, we go on linked and we go on any sort of jobs board site. Yeah, They probably don’t, you know, put the salary, and a lot of times it’s dio we and, um I I myself was like I don’t see like why, you know, there’s like an issue with that, too. Until it was pointed out that, like, you know, this was This is a practice that is steeped in, um, whiteness and its steeped in patriarchal, the patriarchy. And so why do Why do organisations not do that? I don’t know. I can’t say that for each and every other word Is that what I can say is that when organizations don’t put a salary for a job or put d o e um, that disproportionately effects women and people of color. Um, because it contributes Teoh. And there have been studies that show that when it’s when there’s no salary, it discourages people of color. Don’t feel like they are, um, you know, I don’t want to speak for for all people of color, but there have been studies that have shown that, you know, it contributes to that pay gap. That gender pay gap

[00:57:59.03] spk_1:
okay, enables that’s what I thought. It enables disparities in pay

[00:58:00.60] spk_4:
exactly and so

[00:58:02.32] spk_1:
committed because you don’t have to commit in writing exact ranges 1 25 to

[00:58:57.62] spk_4:
one solidity on their maybe organizations out there that are like, Oh, this is a black woman that’s applying for this job. I’m going toe put my I’m gonna offer this job to this person on the lower end of that range, and that’s not fair, Um or, you know, because I didn’t put post my salary. I’m gonna lowball this this this job offer and that’s not fair as well to we want organizations that are going to put or post positions or job roles on our website to be up front with everything, too. We want to make sure that our community members have all the information that they have to make an informed decision about their future job. Future A future benefits so they can make the most educated decision on whether they want to join this organization or not. Do you

[00:59:02.44] spk_1:
know what’s what’s required for

[00:59:12.82] spk_4:
that salary? Yes, so right now it is required. That’s the only thing it so you can’t post a job of job opening without having a salary.

[00:59:15.53] spk_1:
OK, so array is arranged, Arranges acceptable,

[00:59:18.46] spk_4:
I believe, arranges acceptable. I

[00:59:42.21] spk_1:
think that’s okay that someone is coming being offered at the lower end of that range, and they feel their experience marriage something higher? Um, then they can brother on conclusion that this may very well be racial or gender based or some other some other classifications based beyond their experience. You could draw that. You can draw that conclusion for yourself. If you’re being offered the low end of that salary. Radio

[00:59:50.07] spk_4:
have some very badly for that with the rains that that was going, going it, Teoh.

[00:59:53.03] spk_1:
Otherwise, your you’ve got no information whatsoever.

[00:59:55.44] spk_4:
Absolutely. And so you’re like I don’t know what. And so a lot of times there’s just weird tactic that people do. It’s like, What do you think you should be paid? And it’s like, you know, don’t turn that on its head. You know exactly what this job is worth. Please put it out there so everyone is aware.

[01:00:12.08] spk_1:
Okay, My own conclusion,

[01:00:57.91] spk_4:
though, anyway, so we require that now, and that’s something that we all came together and talked about. I mean, I can’t say who I can’t remember who, like specifically brought it up as something a za point. But it was such an easy fix. Such an easy fix. And, you know, I’ve been you know, I keep on talking about past organizations I’ve been with, but, um, I’ve been in organizations where it’s like an easy fix, but it took three months to implement. It took a meeting une email thread, you know, Ah, heart to heart meeting about how this was. You know, sometimes if it’s easy just implemented, and this was one of those things that you know, start to finish, maybe took ah, week a week and 1/2 to get it all running a

[01:01:01.53] spk_1:
programming is all of a sudden it’s a required field when it wasn’t required before.

[01:01:05.85] spk_4:
I think things are red

[01:01:06.96] spk_1:
asterisk and has to be programmed in the back end that you can’t submit your form without that field being

[01:01:23.71] spk_4:
feel that there’s a there’s low hanging fruit that sometimes exists in an organization that no one’s really sat and looked at and been like, Why are we doing this? How can we do this differently? That’s in a more equitable way in an equitable, equitable, more former fashion. And I think you know, I also say that, you know, I bring up these this anecdotes just because, you know, I mean, there are a lot of other things that we’ve done that. Have? Really?

[01:01:39.11] spk_1:
Yeah. That’s a That’s a great one.

[01:01:40.66] spk_4:
Because lately that

[01:02:19.54] spk_1:
innocuous on its face, it’s completely innocuous. Leave it blank if you want. Your Blanco are based on experience. It sounds perfectly. We’re doing that that way for generations. Based on your experience, you’ll get big. But now it’s locked in. You know what? We’re being offered a salary at the low end, and you can draw your own conclusion that why that might be exactly okay and no longer enabling. All right, Um, that’s a great story. Yeah, Um I mean, yeah, there’s so much we can talk about. Yeah. You mentioned in the description how racism manifests differently. A different levels of an organization.

[01:02:23.60] spk_7:

[01:02:24.50] spk_1:
First, a little bit.

[01:03:03.42] spk_4:
Yeah. So great question. I have, um, the ah, you know, opportunity and the privilege to serve on a, um A It’s an advisory. It’s the Committee on Racial on Racial Equity for, um, the it’s called Organ Metro. So it’s Thea Thea area local regional government that it’s, I believe, spans three, if not four counties in the Portland Metro area. So it’s a governing govern form of government that overlooks all four of us

[01:03:06.10] spk_1:
have to show off that I know Portland is in Multnomah County.

[01:03:09.04] spk_4:
Yes, I have to show. I

[01:03:10.54] spk_1:
just have to marry. Let’s have to show that off. That completely

[01:07:16.58] spk_4:
how I, um seven. It’s very much like a, uh it’s very much like a, um you know, council, where there’s council members that represent each district. And there’s also a c 00 that runs the entire organisation and government. Um, So, um, I sit on a, um on a committee that is tasked with making sure that racial equity is something that that governing body prioritizes and also is taking into consideration when it’s pushing or advocating for anything. So all that to say is that we had an opportunity Teoh to touch base with some leaders, potential leaders within this, this governing body. And, um, I think one of the questions that came to the top and that I asked you because it kind of goes back to your question of like, um, racial inequity manifests itself in very different ways on. And so if you’re a you know, a CEO of an organization, um and you’re like, yes, I’m about d I work. I live in. I breathe it yada yada. I do all of it on and I’m really passionate about it. Yet you’re a white person, and then you have to, you know, foreign partnerships with other area organizations, and they’re all white as well to what happens when you get into a room or you’re having to have big, you know, decision making conversations and everyone and there is white. Um, and, um and people in there are saying things that aren’t racially equitable. Um, and you’re sitting there in your belief that I believe I believe d I work. I know that it’s there, but the gravity of all these other people agreeing with this false, you know, or agreeing with this, you know, racially an equitable belief. You’re gonna have to push against that in that scary right to go against the grain of like, the larger group on. And so I I ask that because you know, our I just I bring that up because I think the phrase that comes most to mind to me is someone said it to me and I forget why read Reddit? Orde said it. But it’s always stuck with me as you move up within an organization, racial inequity on racism becomes more sophisticated, so it’s much, much easier to detect. Unlike a direct service, rubber hits the road level as you get to that C suite level. You know of an organization, it becomes more nuanced. It becomes mawr about tokenism. It becomes more about how you’re playing folks of color against each other or not even talking about it at all. Um, so I think that’s something that I’ve, you know, experienced in scene, you know, on a direct service level. When I first started right out of college, you know, when I was working for direct service, the the direct service staff of Color, the black folks, we’re always the ones who got, you know, assigned to jobs or assigned the locations that were less than favorable. And so, um, you know, it’s pretty straightforward. And then, you know, as we moved up within the organization, we realized that there was a token izing thing going on at the middle middle management level. And so, you know, I think that’s just one thing that it manifest in in very different ways, you know, in different organizations, but also across different levels To one level of, you know, racism may look, you know, one middle level of racism may look completely different at one organization that it doesn’t the other two. And so that’s why it’s, like a very sinister thing. Um, Teoh to be able to, you know, figure out for an organization.

[01:07:39.98] spk_1:
Um, let’s see, where can we go and sort of wrap up? Um, What you tell me you want? Oh, let’s bring it back down toe back to in 10. Because they were supposed to have been, but I let I wandered. Um um, deliberately So what do you want? What you want to share about? Sort of in closing in about intense journey, The work, the work that remains

[01:09:03.37] spk_4:
Yeah. Go. Absolutely. I love that. You said the work that remains cause there’s always work that remains. I don’t want anyone. I certainly don’t want to put on any, um, you know, false pretenses that we are. We’re there as an organization. We have arrived. We’re not. We have There’s always work that needs to. That has remained. That is remaining. And so I think that’s where I would start is that we have we’re on our own journey. We are, um, you know, moving forward intentionally and with respect to make sure that we are covering all of our departments and making sure that, you know, everyone is a steward of this d I work and making sure that it permeates every corner of our our organization. So that’s where I would start. I think you know, if folks are out there that are wanting to or your I mean, I specifically I speak Teoh, um, you know, CEOs, executive directors of organizations that are white. Um, this is the best time to push this forward. And it’s going Teoh not be easy. That’s

[01:09:10.83] spk_1:
what he said is the best time.

[01:12:27.75] spk_4:
It’s the best time because, you know, this is a time where people are, you know, there are country is and I don’t want to get you know too far into the political part of things. But like, you know, there’s a lot going on in our country to and, um, non profits are, you know, specifically smaller grassroots roots nonprofits are, um, you know, suffering A lot of times, a smaller grassroots non profits were run by people of color, so you know, I think in the spirit of non profit, it’s incumbent upon, you know, leadership to make sure that they’re helping. Not only there constituents, their employees, but also other nonprofits. So what does that mean for those CEOs or executive directors? This is the time, you know. And again I say that not in like, ooh, the stars have aligned these air that this is the time every time is a good time, You know what I mean? There’s no bad time to do this. This had this work has to be done. Um and so I would say that, you know, it’s it’s something that will pay off for years to come to. You’re going tohave employees when you start to prioritize, you know, d I work and not only within, like the D I department, but also just d. I work across your organization across departments and start to look critically how you can change and morph and transform into. I’m an anti racist organisation. You’re going to realize that a Not only are you a happier person be your employees are happy to be there and happy to do work, because inherently, when you a drew racial inequity. You’re addressing a lot of other inequities as well. You’re addressing, you know, gender inequity. You’re addressing LGBT Q. I A plus in equity as well. Those things will come in that makes employees happier. And what does that do that starts informing how you interact with your employees? Not only its not only informs it, but it starts to shape the things that you hold near and dear, both individually and as an organization, and your employees and staff will see that they will see that and they will want to stay. And that Matt effects. You know, if for those data folks out there, you know, staff retention, you have folks that are going to stay for the long haul because they believe in the work that you dio and what happens, you know. I mean, a lot of people think, you know, in in organizations or in business, you know, the customer is always right. Customer’s always right customer first, you know, or your that your communities that you’re serving our first and yes, that’s right. And there’s a grain of truth in that. However, you can’t serve your customers or your um, your the communities in which you’re serving or living in. If your employees aren’t served first and aren’t being prioritized, it’s kind of like, ah, flip of mindset that you have to dio So that would be my encouragement. And that would be my, um my you know, last piece that I would end on Is that like, you know, this is the time to do it, you know, because you know it. At the end of the day, it helps serve your organization to make sure organization stronger, and it makes your employees stronger. And it makes the relationships that you have with your employees stronger. Likewise that didn’t that, then goes into your, you know, direct service groups. You know, your communities that you’re living within. It makes your connection in your relationships more sincere and more bonded.

[01:12:51.55] spk_1:
Tristin pen, community engagement and Equity manager at N 10 s Justin, Thanks so much.

[01:12:58.14] spk_4:
Thank you so much. I hope I made sense. Thank

[01:13:51.35] spk_1:
you very much. You made a lot of sense Last sense and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 ntc remember, were sponsored at the conference by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us next week. Privacy. Best practices. I told you it was coming. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo.

[01:14:41.79] spk_0:
A creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. I did the post production. How did I do? Let me know. Sam Liebowitz managed to stream show Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots non next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.