Tag Archives: ethics

Nonprofit Radio for April 5, 2021: Gender Inclusivity 101 & Ethical Representation In Your Communications

My Guests:

Jude Shimer: Gender Inclusivity 101
Our 21NTC coverage continues with a convo that started out talking about gender-inclusive data, and includes a lot of best practices around that. But it broadened into a primer on inclusivity generally. It’s 2021! It’s time to address your constituents as they’d like to be addressed. My guest is Jude Shimer from The Center for Popular Democracy.


Caliopy Glaros: Ethical Representation In Your Communications
Caliopy Glaros urges you to authentically represent your issues as well as preserve the dignity of those affected by them. She shares 5 actions to help you tell more ethical and equitable stories. She’s principal of Philanthropy Without Borders and this is also part of our 21NTC coverage.


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[00:02:21.54] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Andrea Strand, Dallas Canton Insys If you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show you that cutting in the background. By the way, I’m having a little work done outside gender inclusivity. One. Oh one. Our 21 NTC coverage continues with a convo that started out talking about gender inclusive data and includes a lot of best practices around that. But it broadened to a primer on inclusivity. Generally, it’s 2021. It’s time to address your constituents as they like to be addressed. My guest is Jude Shimmer from the Center for Popular Democracy and Ethical Representation. In your communications Calliope Glaros urges you to authentically represent your issues as well as preserve the dignity of those affected by them. She shares five actions to help you tell more ethical and equitable stories. She’s principle of philanthropy without Borders, and this is also part of our 21 NTC coverage on tony. Stick to how are you doing? Plus podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is gender inclusivity one Oh one. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. My guest right now is Jude Shimmer. They are CRM manager at the Center for Popular Democracy. Jude, welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:23.37] spk_2:
Hello. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:51.34] spk_0:
Absolutely. My pleasure. Your session is respect your donors with gender inclusive data and you’re claim I’m not sounding. I don’t, uh I don’t mean to sound skeptical of it. No, you say that we can improve relationships and and grow our base by being more cautious or using gender inclusive data practices better? Yes. So just as an overview, what are we not getting right?

[00:03:48.24] spk_2:
Sure. So this is a particular interest of mine because I’m trans and non binary, and, uh, I have a lot of experiences, especially filling in forms filling in donation forms for nonprofits where I started my session at NTC was an anecdote where I was trying to donate to an organization that I cared a lot about. And they had a salutation field on their donation form that was required, and it didn’t have any gender neutral option. Except for Dr um and I I never understand why any donation form would require that, Like, why it just It makes no sense to me. Uh, and I actually reached out to this organization and asked if they could update their form. Um, and at the time, I already was working for a company. Um, that, among other things, was a donation and online donation platform for nonprofits. And so I built a lot of donation forms. Um, and I

[00:03:58.30] spk_0:
knew what was possible. Yeah,

[00:04:17.34] spk_2:
exactly. You do not have to have a required salutation field. Yeah, it didn’t work. They they the person who who I emailed with actually was really sympathetic and seemed really eager to do it and then said that they tried and it broke their form and that therefore they couldn’t do it. And so I didn’t donate to the Oregon. They didn’t get my donation.

[00:04:22.32] spk_0:
Yeah, You could have offered a technical assistance Probably helped to fix their broken form. Alright,

[00:04:28.96] spk_2:
Yeah. Then it becomes a question of free labor.

[00:05:07.44] spk_0:
Yeah. No, you shouldn’t have to do that. Just by the way, you may hear a little banging in the background. I’m having some floor work done, so Oh, well, congrats or cutting, right? Thank you. And replacing carpet with, uh, L V P. This planking vinyl planking that looks doesn’t look like 19 sixties vinyl, so it’s a little noisy, but that’s that’s you might hear that in the background. Um, yeah. All right. So I mean, let’s start with the most basic, you know, Why would they need to require a salutation? I mean, I have a rationale for that. Or do you see a rationale that you don’t agree with? Probably. But yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:05.84] spk_2:
I’ve talked to a lot of nonprofits who either do require a salutation on their forms or wanted to require salutation on your forms again. The the clients that I was working out with the time and the platform that I was supporting, um, did not require salutation, and, uh and we had a policy against it. Um, and you didn’t even have to have salutation on the form, but we had clients who would request that it be required. And I talked to several about it, and it really came down to this myth that donors want to be addressed by their salutation all the time. Like universally, That’s just the thing that donors want. And therefore we need to ask for it, because if we don’t know their salutation, we’re not going to be able to to write it on their acknowledgement letter and they’re going to be upset and they’re going to feel disrespected and they won’t want to donate anymore. And I have never actually like. No one was able to actually give me some kind of evidence that this is true. Like no one told me a story of like, Oh, we had a donor and we forgot to use their salutation and they were really upset, and they wouldn’t donate any more like that. Does that ever actually happen? And if it does, mhm. That sounds like the donors problem. Like you know, there you can find other donors you have. You know, one odd one who insists on being referred to it not only insists on having their salutation used, but having it asked up up front and the idea that it should be required, like at least just making it optional gives people the opportunity to put it in if they want to be addressed by it. And then no one else has to, but required. Makes no sense to me.

[00:07:10.84] spk_0:
All right, so let’s broaden this and go. Go to what? You know, what is what What else is out there that we should be sensitive to besides salutation? You know what? Sure. What is gender data?

[00:09:01.54] spk_2:
Sure. So, um, there’s the actual gender field. Um, so, you know, male, female, Any other options, which there are actually many more. Um, And there also is, uh, pronoun, which and I also want to be clear, like salutation is not analogous to gender. And pronoun is not analogous to gender. So someone may identify as male, but use they them pronouns. Um, because pronoun usage is very personal. Um, but, uh, but all of these things relate to the concept of gender. So when I talk about gender data, I’m talking about all of the various fields that people associate with gender. So, um so yeah, there’s salutation, There’s pronoun, there’s the actual gender field. And then there’s also sex, which I address in my, um in my presentation as being totally irrelevant to this conversation. When we’re talking about donors donor data, there is no justification whatsoever to ask for or know the sex of your donor, meaning the sex they were assigned at birth. It’s a complete non issue, so you can just drop it off the list. Um, with gender itself, the gender field this one is this one is very interesting. So multiple times that I’ve seen forms that ask for gender because they want to, like put a T shirt in someone’s membership package and want to know whether to include a men’s or woman’s T shirt. But there is no explanation of that. They don’t ask for, like, T shirt style. They just ask for gender, male or female and

[00:09:15.74] spk_0:
but no size, right? So yeah, okay, so that that justification seems kind of thin. Yeah, exactly. Kind. That that’s a thin Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:08.34] spk_2:
Um, so that’s an example. And that’s one that I’ve seen on on donation, or at least membership forms. And then also, though there are other reasons why a nonprofit might want to ask for gender less. So because of, um, like, just a donation situation. But maybe because they’re accepting some kind of application or submission, maybe around their programming, Um, maybe they’re going to have an event, Uh, and they want to have performers or Panelists. And that actually is a really good justification for asking for gender to ensure equity. Um, to make sure that you don’t end up with, you know, an all male or all CIS gender panel. Or, you know, artists in your new works programming things like that. Um, And in that case, there are best practices for how to ask for gender. Um,

[00:10:51.74] spk_0:
okay, we’re gonna we’ll get to that. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Everyone to get ahead of it. You know, we’ve got to get the best practice. Yeah, I’m just trying to set the set the field For what? We’re what it is we’re talking about. Can I, uh This is maybe a little part. Well, that’s not so, but I want you to explain your your feelings around something when when someone doesn’t refer to you as they are them, but says he or she how does that feel? I’m not asking you to speak for the entire, you know, the entire community. Uh, but how does it feel to you when someone miss Miss Miss identifies you?

[00:11:05.74] spk_2:
That’s a great question for me. Personally, Um, it feels confusing. And it it feels like being called the wrong name repeatedly. Um, your

[00:11:07.16] spk_0:
analogy, because yeah, that feels Yeah, exactly. I thought you said Tom. You know, I’ve heard a few. Yeah,

[00:11:52.34] spk_2:
um, and so for me, I don’t have a particularly strong emotional reaction. It’s just incorrect. It’s just like, Oh, no, that’s that’s wrong. That doesn’t fit. Uh, that is my unique experience for other trans people. It can be really, really unpleasant and traumatic. Um, it also depends on how it’s done, because if someone does it by accident, you know, they slip up or they like I haven’t had an opportunity to tell them my pronoun, and they just assume that feels different from when someone has been told repeatedly. And they are persistently using the wrong pronoun. Um and, well,

[00:12:06.34] spk_0:
old repeatedly and consistently doing it wrong. Is that almost like harassment? Yeah. It is a legal definition of harassment harassing to you, Maybe in a non legal way. Whatever. Yeah, all right, All right. Thank you. All right. Thanks. Thanks for sure.

[00:13:15.94] spk_2:
And actually, there’s something I do want to add to that, which is that there are. There’s sort of a scale of, of disrespect or lack of respect for trans people as far as impact. And it’s different for different people. So for me, things like being called the wrong pronoun by someone who’s only just met me or being called ma’am by a server or or, you know, having to confront, like, a restrictive gender field on a form. These things really annoy me. But I also have significantly more traumatic experiences, like being yelled at to leave my gym locker room or having really unpleasant experiences at the O B G y n. And these may seem different, but for me, they are all part of the same kind of miasma, like like they all come together to create an experience. And so when when someone can help mitigate those things that seem smaller, like a form, form field, or like or like a brief Miss Jen during briefly using the wrong pronoun, it makes such a big difference. It really does. Um, and I think that’s important to talk about.

[00:13:54.74] spk_0:
Yeah. And I’m sorry that you you need to have the the small, like, sort of corrections because the the fronts, you know, shouldn’t be there. It sounds like you know, So it sounds like the small the the small incidents where it’s done properly mean a lot to you because there’s so many. There’s so many mis mis identifications out there. Yeah, exactly. But I’m sorry you have to suffer the fronts to

[00:13:56.42] spk_2:
Yeah, what it’s like here right now.

[00:15:07.24] spk_0:
Look, um, you know, so I’m 59 So I’m speaking to folks who are, you know, if if you’re not in your twenties or like early thirties, you know, you didn’t grow up with the pleasure of pronouns that we have now, uh, so, you know, at 59 I grew up, you know, obviously more traditional. Um, but it’s 2021. So, you know, if you want to be online, your forms have to adapt if you want to. You want to interact in society, you know? I mean, if you want to just talk to your family, then you don’t have to, I guess you don’t have to adapt. But if you’d like to go outside your family, assuming you don’t have any trans folks in your family, you know you might. But let’s assume you don’t you know, if you want to stay in solar for the rest of your life, then then you could live your little in your little bubble. But if you want to be part of functioning society in 2021 you know, at 59 years old, I’m here to tell you that you have to adapt. Things are different, you know, just like they were different from the forties to the sixties. Things are different from the knots to the 2022 20 twenties, so get on board. All right, all right, that’s all. So for my my, uh, age peers jump on, all right, it’s not so bad. It’s not. That’s not bad at all. You know, it’s just it’s

[00:15:11.13] spk_2:
good change,

[00:15:21.24] spk_0:
part of a national worldwide community. So be part of it, or stay in your little home and stay in your little zip code if you like. You know? All right, Um, and there’s probably trans folks in your zip code anyway. So you know you’re not there

[00:15:25.22] spk_2:
definitely are little zip code. Little bubble is not as safe

[00:15:37.64] spk_0:
as you might think. All right there, huh? My, uh, imploring my my my peers to come aboard. So All right. Um, well, since you mentioned best practices, you know, we’re gonna talk about when to collect and not to collect. We still got plenty of time. So but let’s let’s talk about some of the best practices about, you know, if you are going to collect it and I guess you could bleed into, you know, whether to collect or not, you know, what’s your advice?

[00:16:11.34] spk_2:
Sure. So if you are going to collect it again, I see two main justifications for collecting gender. Specifically one. You’re accepting submissions, and you want to ensure equity to you want to do some kind of survey. So maybe your survey, your surveying your donors or potential donors about all kinds of things. Maybe you’re surveying them about your programming and whatever else,

[00:16:15.20] spk_1:
and you also want to

[00:17:03.64] spk_2:
know about them demographically. That’s really, really fair. Um, and especially in certain nonprofit industries, um, in industries that are that are centered around uh, progressive movement or equity? Um, in the former case with with submissions. Um, uh, a pretty standard practice is to use, uh, values for female male, non binary Prefer not to say and not listed or prefer to self identify. Um, and, uh, that last one is really important because, um, people can identify all kinds of ways. It’s also becoming more and more of a recognized best practice not to use the term other there, Um, because it literally others people. But to say, you know, right, you know, self identified or not listed,

[00:17:14.54] spk_0:
Should you should you give folks if they’re choosing, uh um, not listed should you give them a chance to feel positive or

[00:17:43.34] spk_2:
absolutely, Yeah, that should always come with a right and sealed. Um, every every gender field should come with a right in field. And in fact, the absolute best practice for as far as I’m concerned for for ensuring equity and submission is to just make it right in field, like forget about the pick list values, but let people right and what they want where they where organizations will sometimes run into issues perceived or real with that is, if They have lots and lots and lots of submissions, and they want to be able to sort and filter things. Um, so that’s where the justification for for a pick list, um,

[00:18:06.74] spk_0:
can come in. Otherwise, it has to be some manual intervention, because somebody might do m R period, which is going to be different than m r, which is gonna be different than and And folks might spell something out that the the the the organization wants to abbreviate standard Lee. So all right,

[00:18:10.54] spk_2:
things like that. So that’s for submissions, for surveying,

[00:19:03.14] spk_0:
for really trying, okay, for, you know, in the pick list versus straight narrative. You know, uh, where where the pick list might be appropriate, like people, organizations getting thousands of submissions a month or something. You know, huge organizations where it’s gonna be burdensome to look at each one and put something in specific to that field for each one. But if you’re getting, you know, like 10, 10 or 15, or maybe even 100 donations a month or or submissions of whatever type nations donations, submissions, you know you can you can do that. You can You can do it right in the field. You know, in an hour somebody can go through 100 of them. I mean, it’s all right. So, you know, we’re not, uh, the Cleveland Clinic where we’re getting 10,000 relations or something. All right, so let’s, you know, the the, uh, be open minded there in terms of what you how you can accept the data. Okay. I’m sorry. Yeah, sure.

[00:21:36.34] spk_2:
So? So we’ve talked about submissions, and then they’re surveying. So in surveying, it’s really useful to get as comprehensive as you can Data on gender. And so there are a lot of gender fields that you can include on a survey field. And another reason why I point this out is that, um, people in general, if they’re trying to just get the thing done like they just want to donate, they just want to do their submission. Um, then, uh, then you don’t want to make your form. Actually, you know what? I’m going to modify that with donation forms. It’s definitely a best practice to make them as short as possible and to ask for and certainly to require as few fields as possible for submission forms. You can be a lot more flexible with that because the person really wants to submit their thing right. They’re probably going to be willing to go through a few pages of questions in order to get their thing Surveys. Also, people enter into a survey. You know they’ve opted into taking a survey you can reasonably take, you know, a few minutes of their time and give them some pretty comprehensive questions and give them some comprehensive options for for answers. So for gender fields there, um, it’s It’s an increasingly recommended practice to have a lot of different gender, uh, gender. Identify as gender terms that people can multi, multi select and then, as always, because you know why not? It’s really important to to and to include a right in field. Um, because you cannot always be certain that you are covering every term and also because language evolves. So, um, in addition to a write in field, there are a lot of terms that people use for their gender. So male female are sometimes associated with sex identification. But some people also may say that my gender is male or my gender is female. Man and woman certainly. Um, sis man. CIS woman The term cysts, which, for people who are unfamiliar, means not trans somebody who identifies as the same gender as as they were assigned at birth. Um, And, uh, so it’s CIS trans, uh, trans masculine transfeminine. There are a lot of terms that you can find with a really easy google. Um, and for all that, I don’t know how much I want to plug Facebook. Um, but so you know what I want, But, um, but there are a lot of organizations and a lot of companies that have gotten on board with offering a lot of different gender options, and you can pretty easily find comprehensive lists of gender, uh, terms and gender identities.

[00:21:56.54] spk_0:
And again, can’t you just simplify this by having it? Strictly narrative.

[00:22:00.34] spk_2:
You can. Um but then again, the analysis part comes in. All right, so

[00:22:06.82] spk_0:
yeah, manually. Yeah,

[00:22:08.21] spk_2:
exactly. So if

[00:22:09.41] spk_0:
you know how many I mean, are you getting it? Well, all right. If you’re getting 1000 1000 I could see Burdensome. Yeah.

[00:22:59.24] spk_2:
Yeah, exactly. So if you want, for example, to see, like within certain zip codes, what is the gender breakdown of our audience? or our base. Right? So, you know, in these areas where we’re doing certain kinds of work, we actually have a pretty significant trans population. Who is Who is paying attention? Who we have contact with, You know, over in this area, Um, there’s a significant population of CIS gender women who are really interested in our work. Um and so if you want to be able to kind of, um, do analyses like that, it is helpful to have predefined terms, But you do want to make sure that you have a lot of comprehensive ones. Okay.

[00:22:59.87] spk_0:
Okay. Anything else? Best practice wise,

[00:23:12.34] spk_2:
Um, pronoun fields. Or is this the place where we can get into pronoun films? Sure. Okay, great. So one kind of under, uh, well, in certain places under discussed, we’re

[00:23:18.59] spk_0:
seeing that structure that, like, I’m not going to allow a program discussion at this point. But we wait 2.5 minutes, Then we can talk about pronouns in in into the six minutes, but yeah, I hope I don’t come across that

[00:25:12.14] spk_2:
way. Um, but yeah, pronouns are really important. There are more important in a lot of situations than any of this other stuff. Um, because pronouns is how people are addressed. It’s as important as people’s names. So anywhere where you would want to know, you know you’re going to be addressing somebody by their name. You also want to know their pronoun. Um, and there are a variety of ways that you can create opportunities to learn people’s pronouns. So if it’s, uh, it’s having to do with an event, um, you can ask for pronouns on the on the event registration form if you’re going to have the ability to say, like in a world where we have in real life events again, if you’re if you’re going to make people badges or things like that, you can also ask it, like when people arrive at an event when they log on to a virtual event, Um, in platforms like Zoom and other video video conferencing platforms, people can add their pronouns in their name. You can request that they do it. You can model it by doing it yourself and, uh, and you also in live events settings can again offer things like badges. Um, it’s also really it’s also very possible, and sometimes people feel uncomfortable about this or don’t know how to do it, but to ask for people’s pronouns in real life just in a conversation. And I think that the easiest way to do that is to offer yours first. So to approach someone and say, Oh, hi. By the way, my pronouncer, they Then what are your pronounce? Um, And it models the behavior it makes it into, You know, this is the thing that we’re doing together rather than sort of like, um, what pronouns do you use, right. You know, these are my pronouns. What are your pronouns? Um and, uh, yeah. There are a lot of opportunities to do that in a group setting, doing a go around at the beginning and asking people to introduce themselves with their names and their pronouns. Um, these are all things that people can do.

[00:25:24.94] spk_0:
Okay? And it becomes no harder to remember than people’s names. So exactly just slip up on, you know, you might slip up on the names 20 people in a group. You’re not gonna remember all 20 names if there’s no badges. So how to pronounce you say Oh, sorry. I think, actually, I’m sorry. I thought it was her, you know, you know, whatever.

[00:25:41.34] spk_2:
And you and there are millions of names, there are millions of names and only a handful of, of of commonly is pronouns in each language. So you know what? You really can do it.

[00:25:53.21] spk_0:
Okay? Yes, yes, But if you make a mistake, right? I mean, it’s not Yeah, Don’t crucify yourself. Just Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:25.24] spk_2:
I actually recommend really short script for if people make a mistake. So if you make a mistake in front of the person you’re talking about, you can say, Oh, I’m sorry. Thank you for reminding me. And then you use their their correct pronoun going forward if it’s in. You know, if they’re not there and someone informs you, owe that person actually uses he him pronouns, you can say, Oh, thank you for letting me know. And you use he him pronouns going forward. Right? Um, you thank the person for letting you know they’ve gone out of their way to do it. They might be kind of sticking their neck out to point that out. It can be uncomfortable. So you thank them for doing it. If the person who you mis gendered is right there. You say I’m sorry. And then you move on. You don’t have to grovel. You don’t have to, you know, suddenly make them the center of attention. You don’t have to make yourself the center of attention. Just apologize. Thank them and move on.

[00:27:01.04] spk_0:
Very practical. This is becoming sort of a 10101 on. Uh, correct. Excuse me. Correct. Not only pronoun usage, but, you know, addressing the trans community. Yeah. Um, all right, we have we have a couple of minutes. What do you want to leave folks with wrap us up? Um,

[00:27:06.19] spk_2:
sure. Well, I have a I have an anecdote where I had, like, a uniquely pleasant experience. Um, you

[00:27:15.81] spk_0:
ended with a crummy. You started with a crummy experience, so and yeah, and upbeat. Excellent. Yeah,

[00:28:13.94] spk_2:
exactly. So I was I was talking to a canvasser who was helping me fill out a donation form on a tablet, and that person was actually filling out the form and asking me the questions. And they said, Oh, by the way, we have an optional salutation field and we have mix available MX, which is the gender neutral salutation. Would you would you like to enter a salutation? And no one had said anything like that to me before. Just, like asked, Would you like to and said, We have a gender neutral one available and it just it made my day. It was no effort whatsoever that organizations part. It took two seconds, and I transfer like transforming an experience from a negative one where they’re not going to get my donation into a positive one where they get my donation and I feel really, positively about that organization is no effort. There’s no reason not to do it.

[00:31:33.24] spk_0:
That’s perfect. Let’s let’s let’s leave it there. Great charmer CRM manager at the Center for Popular Democracy. Thank you very much, Jude. Thanks. Sure, Thank you. My pleasure. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology conference were sponsored by Turn to Communications. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for a break turn to communications relationships turned to has them with places like the Chronicle of Philanthropy, CBS Market Watch, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times Turn to his clients get placements because of their relationships. So when there’s a reason for you to be in the news or you need to be in the news for your own reason, turn to can leverage these relationships on your behalf. You’re more likely to get coverage that way than you are, calling them up cold on your own. So use the relationships that turn to has to your benefit. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony. Take two. How are you doing? A few folks got back to me, but I’m curious to see if there’s more. And I did hear from some insiders as well again the those, uh, those folks who get the weekly insider alerts telling who the guests are each week. So how are you Anything you want to share about your experience through the pandemic vaccines? You got one. Your family. Was there any sickness in your family? How’s it looking? Planning to go back to the office? Are you planning that yet? Is your office planning it? Are they planning without you? Do you know, maybe maybe they’re planning it without you and you don’t know. In that case, you won’t be able to bring that up to me. But if they’re planning, then you do know and you’re included. How’s the feeling? So I’m interested in how you are as we, uh, begin to see the end of this although fourth surge seems likely. Yeah, plus the pleasantries gotta go out. Right? The podcast. Pleasantries. I’m still enjoying sending these out to you. So I am grateful that you are with nonprofit radio, and I’m gratified that non profit radio is helping you in your work. That’s why I do the show. So pleasantries to you, all of our podcast listeners, each of you individually and then collectively as well. Pleasantries to you. That is Tony’s Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for nonprofit radio. Here is ethical representation in your communications. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC. The 2021 nonprofit Technology Conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot c o. With me now is calliope Glaros.

[00:31:35.94] spk_1:
She is principal

[00:31:39.94] spk_0:
at Philanthropy without Borders. Helio P Welcome.

[00:31:41.44] spk_1:
Thank you, Tony. I’m so excited to be here.

[00:32:07.94] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure. Pleasure to have you. I’m glad you’re part of 21 NTC and our coverage, your topic is from exploitation to empathy, ethical representation in fundraising, communications. This is a concern. What? What do you feel? Nonprofits are not getting quite right around authentically representing people and issues.

[00:32:50.84] spk_1:
Yeah, well, you know, this is a big topic right now, Tony, and there’s a lot of people who are talking about it, but I think my approach is a little bit different for me. It’s not about making cosmetic changes to the images, you know, just showing happy faces instead of sad faces. And it’s also not about sort of superficial changes to language like replacing some words over others. I really approach this topic from the lens that what happens behind the scenes in your storytelling process is just as important as what the audience sees. And so this isn’t about making tweaks to the final narrative. It’s really about working in collaboration with your story contributors to truly understand how they want their stories told. So it’s very much about process, not product

[00:33:00.34] spk_0:
process. Okay, so we could have better processes back end to alleviate appearance problems and and messaging problems that are that are going, going public,

[00:33:41.14] spk_1:
right? I think it’s a fundamental mindset shift. And so, you know, we know that our industry has this issue with representation. We know that a lot of people who work in fundraising and marketing departments have never personally experienced hunger or housing instability or displacement or war. But they’re telling stories about people who have. And so, you know, some of the sort of, I guess, like common sense out there is to think about How would I want my story told, Um, but I don’t really represent some of the people that I’m necessarily writing about. And so it’s this fundamental shift from, you know, not really centering ourselves and our own lived experience, uh, in the stories that we’re telling and really turning towards towards our contributors and looking for guidance from them in how we tell their stories.

[00:33:54.31] spk_0:
Okay, and by contributors you’re thinking of of who?

[00:34:30.44] spk_1:
The actual people that are interviewed by the nonprofit whose stories you’re sharing. If you’re writing about specific people or also the people who are just in your programs, maybe you don’t tell stories about a particular individual or you use like a non identifying case example, Um, but who are the people who are being impacted by your work, who are actually, um, you know, impacted by your mission, going to them and working in collaboration with them and really using their insight to guide how you make decisions, what kinds of stories you’re telling, how you’re talking about the issue, because they’re the ones who are actually experiencing it.

[00:34:33.94] spk_0:
So is it about the questions that you ask them to elicit their story?

[00:34:40.44] spk_1:
That’s a big part. That’s a big part of

[00:34:42.25] spk_0:
it. The communication with the folks that are contributing,

[00:35:01.04] spk_1:
right? So I think the very first thing that an organization has to do is to get feedback about their communications from the people in their programs. And so it’s not just not just interviewing them to get their stories, but actually going back and showing some of the communications that you’ve released and saying, What do you think about this? How satisfied are you with your portrayal? What would you like to see? Right. So even more open ended questions? Not just about, you know. Did you like this? You know. How did you feel it? You know it represented you, but What else would you like to see from us? Right, So get it. So they get feedback is the first step. But also, you know, if you really want to make an impact on your storytelling process, you have to almost create, like I call it a feedback channel. It’s not just about going in once and getting some feedback and, you know, putting it in a little report, and then it sits there. But but having a continuous process of working in collaboration with your contributors. So every time you’re getting stories, you’re also getting feedback, and you can continue to refine your stories in an ongoing way. That’s really the first step.

[00:36:21.33] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. So getting feedback from about the portrayals from the folks who are being portrayed Yes. Okay, interesting. So So that means including those folks on your in your communications. If you’re If you want to make this a regular process, you’re saying not just going one time, but regular have a regular feedback mechanism. So start bringing, adding folks who are the beneficiaries of your work to your e newsletter, for instance.

[00:38:05.42] spk_1:
I think that ultimately, you know, every organization should look at increasing you know, in long term increasing the representation of staff that they have who are responsible for communications. Those folks should, you know, be from those communities and should share some lived experiences and identities with the people who are impacted by that program. I think that’s the long term strategy. I know that you know it’s not going to change overnight. And so I think in the interim, it’s really about both the mindset shift and also creating some different processes. So I’ll give you some more concrete examples, tony. So get feedback. But also, um, a big mistake that a lot of non profits make is they view this concept of consent, right? You know, and we have this in journalism to write, you know, getting consent to tell someone’s story. They view this concept as a form, you know, it’s a one page form that somebody signs that says, I give permission for you to, you know, share my stories and my images, you know, in all of your platforms. And then and then it’s done and you know, that’s that’s not really I think, the most effective process that we could have. We need to view consent a bit more holistically. So for instance, um, you know, I do. How how are we getting people? How are we getting the stories to come to us? Right. And so instead of necessarily going up to someone you know in the program and saying, Hey, can we interview you or, you know, hey, can we have you speak at our next event? You know, how are we allowing people to opt in, if that’s possible, depending on the structure of your organization and your work? So are we allowing our story contributors to sort of self select into the process to sort of raise their hands, so to speak and say, Hey, I would like to be interviewed actually instead of us, um, asking them because you know, there’s power dynamics and sometimes people might feel like saying yes, when they really when you know, when they really don’t want to do something. But because you asked, they feel you know that they have to

[00:38:09.80] spk_0:
say Okay, so make it You’re suggesting Make it more an open question to to the group at large.

[00:38:16.45] spk_1:
Yeah, if it’s possible

[00:38:22.62] spk_0:
and let them and ask. You’re saying you know and then asking for volunteers to instead of going individually to a family or or or a person and saying, Can we tell your story?

[00:39:07.62] spk_1:
Right? Right. Let them volunteer. Let themselves select the option available. Another way consent can show up is even in. So the way stories work is you have an acquisition process where you go out and get the story. You’re actually interviewing people. You’re taking their photos and then on the back end inside a nonprofit, the stories go through this kind of interpretation process, right? You have, you know, the recorded interview or the notes you’ve taken. You’ve got all of these photos, and now you have to put that content into a newsletter or put it into a campaign, right? How are we involving our story contributors in that process? Are we letting them look at their story once we’ve edited it and put it into the campaign or the newsletter? Are we showing it to them and letting them make edits before we send it out before it goes live? Are we going back to them and saying Hey, here’s what. Here’s what we ended up writing. Here’s what we’re going to post What do you think? Are there any changes you’d like to make? How does this look to you? So are we involving them in that editing process?

[00:39:24.52] spk_0:
Is that is that not common? You think it’s not common, You know it. I would have thought the same process that folks used with their donors when they’re doing a donor. So I do fundraising. So I’m more on the donor side that I’m not on the beneficiary side, but with donor. When when fundraisers are doing donor testimonials, there’s lots of back and forth. You know, the same, you know.

[00:41:04.41] spk_1:
No, it isn’t. And you know you really hit on. I think a fundamental issue in this industry is that the way I define exploitation of my talk is that it means that we’re treating some groups better than others. And in the nonprofit space, we definitely treat our donors better than we treat our story contributors or a program participants. And so even if we think about this notion of consent, the way consent looks with donors is totally different than story contributors. So as I was saying, you know, many organizations have this kind of one page media consent form, and there are There are forms that actually say your consent is irrevocable. Once you sign this, we can use your image and story however we’d like and you can’t do anything about it. But that’s not how we treat our donors, right? You know, if our donors sign up for a newsletter and then they decide to opt out later, they can opt out at any time. You know, if they decide, you know, maybe they don’t mark. Their gift is anonymous. And so, you know, we we kind of release things. And then they say, Oh, actually, I don’t want that kind of recognition. Please, you know, um, don’t don’t add me to your annual report. Please make an anonymous. You know, we let our donors kind of opt in and opt out, and and we give them all kinds of controls and consent. But with our story contributors Nope. Your consent is irrevocable. You know, that’s what I really want to change, right? And I think that’s the last part of thinking about consent as a process. There’s opting in, you know, if possible in the story acquisition process, there’s involving them in the interpretation, like you said, with donors having back and forth and then at the end, you know, if years go by and we’re still using their face, you know, on the on the as the hero image on our website. And they say, you know, I don’t want to be on your website anymore. Why on earth can’t we take that image down, right? Why does someone’s consent have to be irrevocable? So you’ve really nailed it, tony. The way that we engage our donors and the control that we give our donors has not been the way that we’ve treated our program participants in our story. Contributors.

[00:42:06.70] spk_0:
Yeah. All right. Interesting. Uh, as I said, I’m only aware of the way it works on the donor side, and I would have thought that it was equivalent on the beneficiary providing side. All right. All right. Um, what else? What else you want to talk about? Not that we’re not. We’re not near the end, but I feel like, you know, you’ve been studying this and thinking about it for years, and I’m coming to it after just I mean, I’ve had another conversation with Amy Sample worried about specifically about poverty porn and avoiding avoiding that. Um, but that was more about images and your, You know, of course. You know, we’re talking more about process. So you think about this more than I do. Basically, what I’m trying to say. So what? What what more? What do you want us to know,

[00:45:01.09] spk_1:
Right, So there’s, I think, a couple a couple main points, Um, in the title of my talk, it goes from from exploitation to empathy. And so I view empathy as being on the other end of the spectrum of exploitation. But I think that this word is misunderstood in our industry. We hear it all the time. And, um, I think it’s misunderstood. And so I spend a little time talking about what empathy actually is. I think a lot of people think that when you have empathy with another person, it means that you are feeling exactly what they’re feeling. But then my question is, how do you know what someone else is feeling right? And what if you have very different lived experiences? I’m sure, um, you and many of our listeners you can think of a time where you’re sharing an experience with someone and they responded with like, Oh, I know exactly how you feel, You know, when this happened to me and then they describe something that was not at all what you experienced and you’re going like No, no, that’s that’s not it at all. Um, you know, or they blow it out of proportion and think like, Oh, that’s happening to you. Oh, I’m so sorry. Oh, you must be devastated and you’re going. No, no, I’m not right people, you know. Are they projecting how they would feel if they experience what you experience? It’s not what you would feel. And so the way that I approach empathy, you know, in this topic and how it’s related to storytelling actually comes from the work of sociologist Milton Bennett, who distinguished between a sympathy and empathy by saying that sympathy assumes similarity when we’re embodying sympathy were practicing the golden rule. We’re treating other people the way we want to be treated, because we assume that they are similar to us, and in empathy. We treat other people the way they want to be treated because we assume they’re different from us. And as I was saying earlier, we really need to be assuming difference instead of similarity, because the lived experiences and the identities of the people who are responsible for telling the stories, fundraising and marketing staff in the nonprofit, um, are oftentimes very different from the lived experiences of the people that they’re telling stories about. Um And so you know, there’s advice out there that I refute, which is, you know, thinking about how would I want my story told, How would I feel if this story was about me and, um moving that that’s really more embodying sympathy and so moving from sympathy to empathy requires that we ask better questions? Um, those questions could look like, you know, how would I feel if I was telling the story and the person that it’s about was sitting right next to me? Or, you know, if I was talking to a donor about this story, and, you know, one of our clients walked into the room suddenly, is there anything about the story that I would change right? Do I tell, Do I tell stories differently to donors? Then then you know, when a client is present versus when they’re not, um, in those hypothetical situations were still. We’re still us. We’re not projecting our experience on to someone else. And so those are the better questions that we could ask. And that’s, you know, there are so many ways that I think in the nonprofit sector and in storytelling, we embody these sympathetic responses and we assume similarity. And we assume that our experience is universal and we’re some kind of a baseline. And really, um, it’s not the case. So I think that’s one main point

[00:45:22.39] spk_0:
that’s almost from like we could say, from from narcissism to empathy,

[00:45:24.88] spk_1:
right, Right

[00:45:41.19] spk_0:
way I experienced something. Must be the way you experienced it or or the way I feel about what you’re describing, because I’ve never experienced it personally the way I feel about what your what Your what your situation is, must be the way you are feeling about it exactly, because because I’m the center of the universe. So naturally, my feelings are the same as your yours would be the same as mine, you know?

[00:46:25.18] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s projection, and I think it’s at the pitfall. It’s you know, we all have, like, interpersonal examples of conversations we’ve had, and the reason I bring it up and that I go to the trouble of defining it is because I think that that basic perception, um, is what is it the pitfall of all of the mistakes that we make, um, in mass communications and in the way that we represent other people. Um, you know, it’s kind of using ourselves as a baseline and not really thinking about sort of the differences in our lived experience. Um, so that’s so that’s one

[00:46:30.88] spk_0:
thing. Uh, yeah. Distinguishing between exploitation and sympathy and

[00:46:33.01] spk_1:
empathy, Empathy,

[00:46:41.68] spk_0:
um and, well, your point know about gauging asking feedback. I mean, just how does this story look to you?

[00:48:25.37] spk_1:
Right. You know, we don’t know how other people want to be treated unless they tell us. And that’s the thing. If we’re just guessing, just guessing it’s still a projection. Um, you know, and I think the other thing that was really important in my session is I think the way that people think about ethical storytelling and moving beyond this kind of narrow scope. And so I think originally our concept of ethical storytelling was informed by journalism, which is really looking at a policy of do no harm so it’s make sure you get consent. Make sure that you’re not traumatizing the story contributor. Respect people’s privacy and boundaries, you know when you’re interviewing them. But in nonprofit fundraising, storytelling, this kind of do no harm is really our baseline. You know, that’s the least we could be doing an ethical storytelling. I think, to go up another level, we need to be adding value. We need to be providing value to the story contributor. And that doesn’t necessarily just mean, um, you know, paying them a monetary stipend. That is a good process for some organizations. It works for some, but not all. Um, but how are we making this an enriching experience? How are we making? Giving them a platform to to share their story and experience in a way that, um, that feels positive and makes them want to do it again? That it was a good experience for them. Right. So how are we providing value? Um, and then, really, the layer above that I think what we ultimately need to be aiming for an ethical storytelling is changing the beliefs and behaviors of our audience. And so we know that there are massive inequities in the world. And those inequities are influencing our work there, influencing our program participants. And you know, these are large, systemic issues, but they’re maintained and held into place by certain beliefs and behaviors. And how are our story’s changing those beliefs and behaviors? How are we pushing back against unhelpful narratives that say it’s okay to treat some people better than others? That’s what we really need to be aiming for.

[00:48:56.87] spk_0:
What’s your opinion of giving folks the option to just tell their own story? Maybe, you know, turn the camera on themselves and just tell their story as they as as they want to. Yeah, I think it’s in their own words.

[00:49:00.14] spk_1:
I would think that would be

[00:49:01.16] spk_0:

[00:49:34.97] spk_1:
I think that the closer that we can get to honoring that sort of authenticity, um, and the autonomy of our story contributors. So yeah, letting, letting them speak in their in their own words, tell their story in their own manner. The closer we can get to that the better. Um, I also know that you can’t fit everything into a tweet, and you can’t fit everything onto a one or two page campaign letter and so I know, uh, forms and opportunities that are are great just for really authentic sharing. And then there’s some that we do have to, um, you know, interpret for our audience. So,

[00:50:10.86] spk_0:
yeah, I mean, it could be the It could be the person’s personal narrative with, you know, with context, right? Exactly. Exactly. Right. I mean, there is a purpose behind these two. We are trying to We we are using these stories to raise money. So I mean, they have you know, we’re not just trying to create an archive. Uh, we’re not creating writing a documentary where this is market driven, market driven content, but the person could use their own words. And then and we fill in with lots of context.

[00:50:36.36] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that was some advice that I gave in my talk as well is really trying to stay. Give the story contributor autonomy as much as you can, and let them use their own words and let them, you know, tell the story the way that they want. And of course, you know, there are shifts that we you know, there are different things that we could do in our interview process. is there are shifts that we can make into the kinds of questions that we ask. Um, but it really should be about giving more autonomy, uh, to the story contributor and honoring their authenticity.

[00:50:44.56] spk_0:
Your session description mentions five actions to tell more ethical and equitable stories. Are those things we can talk about in five minutes?

[00:55:08.44] spk_1:
They sure can. And so I think one of them we already touched on, which was to create or fix your feedback channel right to make sure you’re getting feedback. And if you’re already getting feedback, make sure that it’s done in a consistent way. Um, and that in specific. And I would also say to the listeners, You know, consider having kind of like a control and a test group. And so you know there’s power dynamics at play, right? And when we go to some of the people in our programs and ask for feedback because they’re receiving services from our organizations, those people may be inclined to tell us what we want to hear. Um, and so I get a lot of questions about addressing power dynamics, and there’s there’s not necessarily a lot we can do about about those dynamics. But I would also not just ask people who are, you know, in your programs who are receiving services from your organization, but also ask people either within the community or people who embody some of the identities or lived experiences of those people. But they’re not getting services and and see what they think about your communications. Um, if everyone in your programs are saying, Oh, these look great, you know, great job. And then other members of the community are going No, these are so stereotypical, you know, these are you know, there’s a really this isn’t representative, right? That’s some interesting data. And so don’t just ask people in your programs. But as people outside of your programs, Um, I think, yeah, feedback. And you know, 0.2 is view consent as a process, not just a form. Right. First, take a look at your form and make sure you’re not saying you know that that their consent is irrevocable because it really isn’t. Um, you know, look at ways that you can incorporate consent into your entire process from the moment you’re getting the story, the editing and interpreting it’s going through, and then even long after it’s used. You know, can someone ask for things to be taken down? Um, I think you know, Number three gets at that last point that I made around ethical storytelling, you know, sort of beyond the baseline, Really changing beliefs and behaviors. Um, I really encourage everyone to push back against harmful or unhelpful narratives. And so what are the assumptions that exist about the people in our programs? Um, about their situations. Are those assumptions really? Are they helping us move our work forward or not? And if they’re not, then how are we pushing back? Um, think about the stories that we’re not telling, right. We’ve got all the stories we’re telling, but what are what are the stories we’re not telling? Um, you know, how are our stories shaping the expectations for both our donors in terms of what is required for change? Um, you know what does what does impact look like? What does change look like often our work. You know, change doesn’t happen overnight, But if we’re saying that to our donors, you know you’re going to transform someone’s life, you know, in a day, you know, that’s not really That’s not really reasonable expectation. Um, you know, and also, you know, our clients and story contributors see themselves in these stories were not hiding them from them. And so what kind of expectation are we setting for them? Right. So pushing back against a harmful, unhelpful narratives, harmful and unhelpful narratives and then really like looking at every communication and saying, Is this message reinforcing those narratives or is it challenging them? The fourth piece of advice they gave, um, was being the microphone and not the voice. It’s kind of a proverbial It’s a metaphor. And so you know, you you see these communications, tony. Like where the voice for the Children were, the voice for the poor, you know, and all of these people have voices. They have. They have a way of expressing themselves, and so you’re not really speaking on their behalf, but you are providing them a platform and amplifying their message. And so being a platform being a microphone and not a voice means that you have to as a as a storyteller, as someone in your organization, um, tasked with that, you have to analyze your own perspective. You have to be thinking about what’s influencing my perspective on this. Right? Um, you have to be. You know, when you start making generalizations about a group you have to be looking at, like, how do I know that? How do I know? You know, what I’m saying is real. Where’s my evidence? What am I basing this off of, Right. So understanding. You know what kind of a microphone you are? Right? And, you know, then your final one, we have the final one. That’s right. You know, we need to stay committed to changing beliefs and behaviors because it’s not going to happen overnight. But we’re playing the long game, and that’s really what we ultimately need to be striving. Oh, okay.

[00:55:12.84] spk_0:
Okay. You cut out a little bit there, but changing changing behaviors.

[00:55:16.72] spk_1:
We need to stay committed to changing beliefs and behaviors,

[00:55:25.14] spk_0:
beliefs and behaviors. Thank you. All right, All right. That’s a lot. But that was good. Calliope. Terrific. Thank

[00:55:25.76] spk_1:
you. Thank you so much. Tony,

[00:56:39.54] spk_0:
Your opening eyes. You’re raising consciousness about potential exploitation and helping us avoid it in our in our processes. Thank you. Kelly O P. Glaros principal at Philanthropy Without Borders. Yeah. Thank you very much again. Thank you. And thanks to you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC where were sponsored by turn to communications, turn hyphen two dot c o Next week Fund volunteer activities as 21 NTC coverage continues. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty. Be with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for April 26, 2019: Strategic Knowledge Management & Ethics In Your Prospect Research

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with a case of stati O p Jia if you kicked me in the butt with the idea that you missed today’s show Strategic knowledge management documents, data projects, governance, training They’re all components of knowledge management and our panel from nineteen ntcdinosaur planes. How to manage properly both returning there. Dar Viv arika from Urban teachers and Janice Chan at Shift in Scaffold and Ethics in your Prospect Research There’s a lot of personal and private info available about all of us and your donors. Your researchers job is to find it. Where are the boundaries? How do you protect it? Maria Simple takes on these and other potential landmines. She’s our prospect research contributor and the Prospect Finder. I’m Tony Steak to be the one we’re sponsored by Pursuant Full service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations made easy text NPR to four four four nine nine nine Here is strategic knowledge management from the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of nineteen ninety si. You know what that is? It’s the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. You know that we’re in Oregon, Portland, Oregon at the convention center. You know that all of our nineteen ninety si interviews are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me now are Darby Burka and Janice Chan. Dar is director of information technology and at urban teachers seated next to me and Janice Chan is consultant at Shift in Scaffold. Welcome back to the show. Both of you think you can be back. Thank you very much. Let’s so we’re talking about strategic knowledge management Your your workshop topic Strategic knowledge Management Don’t stop halfway. Janice. What? What? Halfway. What? What? What’s the problem here? Why do we need this session? Uh, my dar actually chose the name of the sessions and maybe you want to talk about that. Okay, Well, either won or you go for a lot of places. People think of knowledge management as solely just We put some documents and SharePoint. We organize the things on our file server and that’s it. They stop there. But that’s really just a foundational piece for knowledge management, and it’s really just a small part of it. So our session was going over the other things you need to consider instead of just we filed our documents. Okay, Janice, how would you know? Let’s make sure everybody has a common understanding of terms. What we need, what we mean when we say knowledge management. So this is, you know, when you’re in an organization, everybody needs some type of information. People have a lot of experience and expertise, but it’s it’s often trapped in people’s heads or we have the file somewhere, but nobody could find them. So I just end up asking darl the things. And so how do you make it so that the right and the people confined the right information at the right time when they need it on DH in the way that they needed? So they’re not spending an hour digging through unorganized sheer drive when we could have just organized and they’re like, Oh, I know howto Advil unt ears to our serum because it’s in the volunteermatch judgment folder and that, you know, like it’s in a place that makes sense. Teo Awesome to our organization. Okay, okay. I said, uh, the So the halfway point is the documents in a share point. And that’s where a lot of people are stopping but trouble? Yeah, a lot of folks just think that’s all you do, and it’s You need to go beyond that and get buy-in from the rest of your organization and think about the other ways that knowledge flow. A lot of knowledge flows through organizations, and it’s not just sitting in your SharePoint drive and you need to deal with How do you manage all that? A lot of places waste a lot of time. What are what are the other elements of knowledge? Management? Um, knowledge management comes into play with data governance. Were all data driven organizations these days. So you’ve got everything sitting in your databases. Why isn’t why are people dealing with processes around that? For knowledge management, you’ve got project management. You do you know these these built out tech projects that cost you thousands of dollars and nobody does the documentation or things about thinks about building things in. Like, for instance, whether the examples we gave it our session. If you’re redesigning a website you’ve already thought about who’s gonna be maintaining that. Whose job is that? After the fact? What do you need the vendor to do? What type of documentation. But people don’t build that into the project. They think about it, but he never actually get it into the formal project. So that’s all part of knowledge management. Okay, eyes, they’re more generous. And also things like training, right. Like when we have new staff, we think we need to train them. We need to onboard them, we think actively about that stuff. And then we don’t always think of it after That person is no longer the new employees. And so we don’t keep that going. And we lose a lot that way because things change right? We don’t necessary. Maybe updated as a star. Kind of referred, right? Like we know we made the how to guide. Great. We never have to update it. But that process of balls because we realized hey, this doesn’t work out as well as we thought. So now we’ve changed it, right? We’re applying that learning that can get loss of It’s not documented when that person who made that improvement walks out the door. You know they find your job or whatever or, you know, even just things like, you know, when people leave right, we don’t always capture that institutional knowledge. My people, when people leave and we’re just like all right, give us your email account password on like you know it. So making sure that that stays within the organization also that it just feeds back into the world, you know, sort of like when you manage a project and you kind of do be brief sometimes after a project. Hopefully you debrief. Does that go anywhere? Because if you have that meeting, then it’s only in the minds of people who were at that meeting. And that doesn’t That’s a lot of knowledge that maybe it’s useful to other people. Normalization will be used for moving forward, and it can easily get lost. We’Ll capture it. I presume you spent a lot of time in the session or have you had your session? OK, you’re dahna downside. Okay, Talking about resource is tools tools that we can use for for knowledge management going beyond documents. So let’s spend a good amount of time doing that. Janice, you want to start with, um, with a tool? Sure. So I think one of the things that way talked a little bit about there. Two types of knowledge is the explicit were just like here you do Step one. And here you do Step two, and usually the task knowledge is sort of like, you know, when you’re baking and you’re like what this done look like? Great. And it’s hard to figure that out sometimes. Like, you know, data governance. You’re like, How do I define those? Like, What does this mean? Why does this number look like not what I was expecting? And I think a lot of times we don’t always have the language. We don’t always have that shared language. Tio have that discussion. So when you map out a process right, if you do that diagram of like here’s, here’s what happens. Here’s which systems are connected to each other, and somebody’s like I never realized that right, Like that’s not the model that I have in my head of how these things fit together, and I had these other pieces that are not on the diagram that you just wrote. The act of like making those diagrams is is you know, Wei Tau have that conversation, get that knowledge out of people’s heads and get a documented right than other people can see. That s so There are a lot of tools for that. Like really simple. I’m sorry. Taxonomy. Taxonomy is another. Another helpful thing I think about autonomy is Oh, no Texas. Tow the grant like different things. Teo also think about it. Buy-in named Tulip zoho. I really like like paddle. It is really, like, cheap. Easy. It’s not made for that necessarily. But you can use it. Pagnoni. It’s really it’s men for teacher. A lot of teachers use it, I think. But it’s free. It’s You don’t have to, like, learn how to use it. There’s not like a steep learning curve, which is helpful for diagrams. You’re like, you know, you can just do pencil on paper, but you know, good, more advanced toward, You know you’re losing charts and all of that or more advanced. But they take longer to learn how to use, so that vanish now. So I’ve got a I’ve got a question. It may be embarrassingly basic, but we ask anyway. All right, So now if we have created this, uh, sort of this organizational chart or this this flow of this chart that in paddle it how do we How do we now preserve that so that people confined It is, It is. It is a simple is the shared drive on a network. I think it depends on what it is and what it’s for, right? Like if it’s hears we’re documenting our process for maybe managing volunteers. Or maybe this is how you make updates on your way you might share. You might save it wherever you might be in your share. Dr. It’s wherever you have your documentation, which honestly, should be wherever people go, because if people don’t go to it, then you have to do that whole, like trying to get people to go to. No place is just more on top of more like it’s just not gonna happen when they already are exactly exactly wherever they are. Just just make it work for there. Okay, okay. Time for a break. Pursuant. the art of first Impressions. How to combine strategy analytics and creative to capture new capture, captivate its, actually captivate new donors and keep them coming back. It’s their e book. It’s on donor acquisition and how to make a smashing first impression. You will find it on the listener landing page at tony dot m. A slash pursuing capital p for please, of course. Now let’s go back to strategic knowledge management. Another tool door you can share with you a couple things I can think about. We demonstrated some visual tools, just having simple visual guides to guide people on what systems do what we demonstrated several of those yesterday, and we also know what kind of systems are we talking about? A different knowledge systems. Maybe you’ve got databases. Maybe you’ve got documents, shares, maybe a process. Documents for the finance system live somewhere else. How our users supposed to know what system Teo use if they don’t even know what systems that you have so doing visual guides for where do I find this? Or where do I put that simple stuff that people can literally stick on? The fridge is in their offices, so people see that constantly as a reminder. We demonstrated some landing pages in Portales. A lot of people think of of that is just a way to get into the document management system. But you could do so much more with a portal you can have links to. Resource is links two different systems guides on where you should put stuff. Updates from the internal newsletter. To remind people of recent resource is way did a whole system of links. If folks check the collaborative notes for our session, we put about a page and a half of links for folks to different tools. And then he also made a Google drive of downloadable resource is for folks to express. Okay, well, we need to identify the first. Where’s the where’s the sheet of patient half of links that’s going to be in the collaborative notes for our session. With that, it’s it’s on this session. If you go to the session page on the NDC agenda, there will be a link to our social. Okay, so you start in ten dot org’s, then you go into the conference, extend into the agenda. Great. So on on Wednesday morning, we have is the strategic Knowledge management. If you click on that the session description, all of the links Aaron there Wave also tested it on both of our Twitter accounts. And then we can also post at the forums and handup Florence under the Where do we want? Put that one in the main discussion or debate? Remain discussion with the mid discussion for him with us. The links because we did a lot of resource, is this is a lot for folks to absorb. Let’s take time. What is your what? Your Twitter ID? Oh, sure example. At Darva arika d a r E v e r k Darby murcott Janice What’s yours? It’s a curiosity bilich at curiosity. Bone or bones? Singular singular curiosity. Bone going challenge metoo way. Curiosity is much easier to spell them. Geever. That’s curiosity Bone. OK, OK, good. All right, So now where else is it? Besides the Twitter Twitter accounts, you said it’s in a forum. Thie tenn dot org’s community forums will go ahead, and we’ll post that on the discussion. And then I think the decision makers would be a good one for that as well. And folks confined that okay, community forums within within ten dahna. Or there’s an decision makers as well as a discussed one, and we’LL go ahead and put that link up for folks because we did a lot of research, and a lot of resource is because we know it’s it’s hard to keep track. We’re gonna have to talk about some of these because we’re doing this for about ten minutes and I have a half hour segment to fill. So it’s okay. You don’t hook with Don’t look with go to the community forum, weigh a lot more. Okay. Okay, Janice, go ahead. Your turn, please. S o. I think that Okay, way talked about sort of the diagram diagrams. They’re, like, my favorite way. Talked about training, right? So I think also in terms of thinking, we talked a little bit about, like, the explicit versus task knowledge. And so sometimes it’s sort of like you’re like, where do I start? Right, So, like, I think that, like, just starting with getting things out of people’s heads, and you’ii think you come up together with some strategies like the, you know, shadowing people and sort of like doing the retrospective after an offense or things like that about shadowing something in real life. What’s that about shuttering people? So, you know, sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience. It’s like, maybe haven’t somebody knew who’s coming on board and they ask all these questions. You’re like, I never would have thought to explain them if you had an *** that question. So sometimes, you know, in terms of getting that knowledge out of someone’s head, we don’t always realize that we have it because we’re like, Oh, yeah, like I just do it. And I’ve been doing this for a long time, and I don’t realize that that, you know, personal system that I’ve come up with for how to get this done really efficiently, that that’s actually knowledge that is useful and that I can share with someone else, like I could teach somebody else I do. This, it is, may be hard to think about how to do that, and sometimes the best, like the easiest way is to have someone who doesn’t have that experience watch you do, you know, like maybe how do I, you know, host a good podcast? How do I do an interview, right? And so you watch somebody else do it, and then you come up with these. You either like notice. Oh, they’re doing it. This and this order, they’re doing it in this way. Or it’s an opportunity to ask that question of, you know, like, why did you choose to do it that way? Right? And I wouldn’t have thought to explain the decision for me, Like, you know, I’ve done this a million times advantage, just, you know, So I think that’s a good, easy way to pull it out. Anybody could do it. Another simple related to that. Is it sort of just telling someone like, Oh, yeah, you just go enter this over there. You could use simple tools that we all have on our laptops I movie or another, you know, quickie tool, off of Windows, laptop and just scream cast really quick what you’re actually doing and capture that in a thirty second video. You know, you could post that internally. A lot of us use chat programs at work, you know, slack or G chat or whatever. You could post that straight in there on a team channel and say by the way. This is how you do the thing. And then if people have questions about, why are you doing it? That way you can have more of a live back and forth and just a static. You know, just go do that thing. But I think even to write, like not just the not just sharing it in that moment when somebody has that question, but making sure that it’s it’s stored somewhere that people confined it later because they’re like you had that question. Probably five other people will have that question. So let me just save save the time now and just put in a place where you could find all of the screen cast on DH. Yeah, they’re a lot of simple, like snag. It is. Another one is just really. It’s really simple to use on. It’s not that expensive, so a screen Flo would be another one that’s a little bit more pricey. It’s maybe ninety nine, but it’s it’s another good moflow captures maggot. What you’re doing live on your computer to demonstrate that for folks, Maybe you’ve got your Tio. You know, a lot of folks are purely remote offices, so you might not have that ability to sit one on one, but you you could capture what you’re doing for a training video like Janice mentioned. If one person has that question, you know, ten other people have got that questions of capturing that knowledge of them, making sure you get that knowledge out as well, Not just capturing at once, but making sure people know where that resource is good. And sometimes that’s faster, right? Like trying to get somebody to like, can you? Right, the out, all the stops and documentation. They just look at you with that leg. Look like I don’t want to need you to spend time like if you were to ask him to show you that I’m like, Oh, yeah, like you did so did it up right? And and so that’s almost a wayto document more quickly. So especially people who don’t like to write things out or like they’re really stress out about it, but are willing to answer that question in that moment. If you can capture that then and make it easy for them, I think sometimes that it’s pompel for that, Uh, I don’t have anything else to say except what other? Whatever tools we got when I was trying, I was trying to think of some different types of data needs, but I can’t I can’t think of any that that I was going to ask you about specifically. So you may as well just keep going. We can talk about women defremery. Sure, a couple of the other items we talked about that are sort of the basis for when we talk about knowledge management. People look at that and they go, How did I do that? What are some practical ways to do that? So we talked about having a knowledge management framework, and frameworks can be really intimidating for folks. They see that they look online and they say all these diagrams and they go. I don’t know what that is, but it’s really just a lens for thinking about the structure. Framework is just a structure. It’s a scaffold. Eso It’s how you build your knowledge management and a focus of what’s important for your organization. Is it that is Janice mentioned? Capturing tacit knowledge is a huge problem. Your organization nobody writes anything down. They leave and then you don’t know what they did so maybe you want to build your knowledge management process, focusing on capturing tacit knowledge. Maybe it is that you guys love doing documentation, but nobody ever updates the documentation. So maybe you need to build your framework on a continuous capturing of that knowledge and continues updating instead. So we talked about different ways to to think about how knowledge works at your organization and how you should build your structures around that. And then another simple tool that we talked about is a taxonomy, which most people already have at their organizations. But they don’t think about it, and it’s not really written down. And that’s the way you refer to commonalities. So maybe your know it. Urban teachers. We’ve got three remote offices, and we use acronyms in particular terms to refer to them. We’ve got terms for referring to our program and for different stages of our participants. That’s a taxonomy. That’s something we can use across all of our systems as a common language, and it usually starts in the in the document management system, and that’s often where people see it. They build that out across multiple systems that can be used in your CR M. It could be used in your HR system. It could be used in your documentation on when you start having a common taxonomy or lexicon like that, it makes it easier to capture knowledge management cause People start using the same things to refer to processes, and it helps bring teams together and really provides a cohesion around your knowledge in your organization. Just a common understanding. Yeah, and people are often they already have one. They just don’t think about it, his attacks on me, but in general, they’ve already got one. The other thing, too, is that you can capture all of this documentation, right? But if nobody knows what it’s called like if you call it volunteermatch judgment and I call it, I don’t know constitutent management or whatever, right, I that’s no good, because then I’m not finding I’m not looking under there because I don’t think that that’s relevant to what I’m looking for. So I think that that common language is also what makes it you know, that your consistent about it you can other people confined it. They know, like OK, when someone says like this is you know, our hears their marketing materials, right? I know that that our logo is considered our marketing materials, right? And some other places it might be under something else entirely. Might be, like under and join our brand your brands, right? So it doesn’t matter what that is, as long as there’s that shared understanding the organization. This is what it means so that I can go into the document German system or, you know, if I ask, ask somebody. Hey, I’m looking for acts, right? Like we have a shared. Understand what that means and what they look for it. How do you create the shared understanding and taxonomy if one doesn’t exist? You were saying, You know, it probably exists and you don’t know it, but suppose it doesn’t suppose you know, just lots of examples of people referring to the same thing by different names. That’s where you need treyz glossary. What do you do it? It’s where you need to do a little bit of legwork. Someone on your team. It’s usually on the team, but not necessarily needs to do some knowledge. Management work needs to work with those teams, and, you know, maybe you’ve got eight sites but they and they’re all talking about his Janice mentioned things under different labels, but they’re all really doing operations, functions or volunteermatch judgment. So you work with those individual departments are sites and you find out what their commonalities are because a lot of knowledge management is about finding commonalities between things a lot of groundwork. Yeah, And you do you have to, As Janice said very aptly yesterday, you’ve gotta invest some time to save some time. You know, you can’t get saved time for free. You need to invest some some leg work up front. So if you work with those different departments to figure out what their commonalities r and you work with them to build a lexicon, you’re going to find that people aren’t is really determined to refer to something as a particular thing as they once thought. When you start showing them the commonalities on DH when I’ve done taxonomy, is that organizations? In all three cases, I’ve had to do it. People end up agreeing on the taxonomy because they you know when when you get him talking, they’re really just talking about the same things. And they’re really not that invested in referring to it as a particular thing. They’re okay with going with operations instead of, you know, office, office management or something like that. You know, they released a little bit, and they realize special and you promoted as like, you know, we’re trying to make it easier to work together. They tend to release a little bit and go. Yeah, okay. We’re cool with operations, OK? I’m surprised to hear that, actually, people would stick to their This is operations. Well, that’s what culture. So that way, that way. So So, Yeah, we talked a bit about organization because I think any time you talk about language, any time you talk about the way that we do things here, right, that is organizational culture. And you know you don’t have unorganised age culture that supports knowledge management that supports learning, right? Sharing of information. You know, sometimes people will get very Don’t touch my stuff. Stay in your lane. You know, this is my job. That’s your job. Whereas I think if you are learning organization, if you want to build that college culture of you know, we share our knowledge here and we all learn from each other. You know that obviously you don’t want those silos. That doesn’t work out very well. That’s kind of the essence of what you’re trying to do. But I think like the one of things that we talked about in terms of road blocks, where you’re trying to roll some stuff out and maybe people are like insecure, they viewed their knowledge is job security. And it’s not that Maybe that doesn’t come from a place where they used to work somewhere where you know that was an issue and that that certainly can be at an issue and in some organizations, But a lot of times it’s just that really, that individual like, you know, I want to make sure that I keep my job or I want to be seen as valuable. And you can use that to write because so it can be not were trying to steal your knowledge and take take your job away from here, take things away from you, but also you know, Hey, your knowledge is valuable and sometimes people don’t see that and helping them see that you’re acknowledges really valuable to the organization and look how much stronger the team could be if we all had could use that knowledge, and we could help you even more. And, you know, whatever you’re you’re role is all right. Gentle persuasion, all but all for the good of the mission. Absolutely. Way all could do a better job if we could come together with this agreement around this common language. Yeah. Yeah. And also acknowledging that you might be in an organization where you know there is a toxic or culture, and they’re no amount of knowledge. Management is going to fix that. So they’re just, you know, knowledge management cannot fix broken business process buzzes and broken culture. So there is an acknowledgement of that. You you’ve got larger problems if that’s going on in your organization, and we can fix that for you. We’ve had discussions about on the show previous ntcdinosaur about blaming technology when leadership or processes or culture are the problem, right? And I’m looking for a technology solution to a bad CEO, right? No amount of pretty software is going to fix something like that. No amount of nice, you know? Well streamlined document man, aren’t you? Knowledge management is going to fix that. Wait a couple more minutes together. Uh, what else did you talk about? That maybe some questions about some of the Okay, Well, a lot of the questions were related about related to culture and trying to get people on board with things when people were resistant. Because it’s hard to make it hard to make culture change. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it’s sort of like it needs become a part of the way you do that here. And so it needs to also be part of, you know, one way. Besides, getting people’s buy-in is also making a part of job expectations, making it part of your performance performance evaluation on DH. You know, just making it like every time we haven’t have a project meeting, right reflection is part of that. Every time we have a staff meeting, there’s there’s some aspect of knowledge mansion or we talk about. You know, every quarter we talk about what do we need to update? Maybe in document management? Maybe. What do we need? So like, nobody uses this folder. Nobody looks like this like it’s maybe we need to just archive it. We don’t need it anymore or things like that and building that in and acknowledging that you can’t do this solo, you need your stakeholders and identifying who those are early on and that you’re going to need some executive stake holders. Get them in. Earlier on, we talked about different techniques with you know, that straight project management type stuff. But in terms of knowledge management, get him onboard early. You know you’re going to need them to help you push this through on DH. Really? Make sure you take care of your stakeholders and you deal with the people that are not liking your process. Figure out why they don’t like your process and try and work with that. You know it might not make them your favorite stakeholder, but if you understand where they’re coming from, like Janis was just talking about, like understanding why they’re a road block that could be really key to getting past them and really making them invested in your project and turning them around to liking your project. Having good office relationships helps also yeah, long before we’re talking about knowledge management. Just if you’re decent and it isn’t to your peers and colleagues and, uh, you get to know them outside the office, you know? And you’ve got his foundation of a relationship than when you’re calling on them for some. Some compromise. I think you’re more apt to get it. Yeah. They didn’t trust that. This is going to be good for the organization. This is We’re working towards the same goal if you don’t have that trust, and you need to start there like you need to start establishing Janet. You also mentioned the archive folder. I do plan e-giving consulting on. So I’m brought in sometimes to revive a program that’s stalled. And maybe there was a plan e-giving consultant or director. You know, four years ago. And then they eliminated the position, and it just kind of faded away, So I’m so I’m invited. Tio, update the files. Update the files. I can’t tell you that the first full day I makes archive, I’m opening this. I don’t know what everything is from two thousand six. We’LL move archive. You know, it has no relevance reducing that I think producing that clutter are not overwhelming to people. What are things you that actually relevant to to our organisation and our operations now, like maybe we need to keep that. You know, we don’t care. We’re not sure if we need to keep out, and we’re keeping it just in case that sort of get it, clear it out of the way, right? Because, like, it’s not the stuff you’re using all the time. The stuff that you are using frequently That should be, you know, really central and real quick. Good technique. With that, people get really nervous when they say you’re going to delete those archives and they hide a copy of them. So you just do a process where you keep them. But you put them in a place where it’s not clogging up their search terms and assure them they really, really need that. You can still get that back for you, and that really helps them move it out of what? What’s searchable their day today life. But if they know that it’s still there somewhere, they often are much better with being able to archive because they’re not worried about you pushing the w good. Okay, Janice, I’m gonna give you a chance to wrap up. Oh, like she’s pulling together. So I think some of the biggest things we talked about were really like, Get things out of people’s heads, Get the knowledge out of people’s heads, make it organized so that people can find it in a way that it’s It’s not overwhelming to people what makes sense to them, right? And also not, you know, being aware of people’s what people are scared of or what people. But those hang ups or obstacles might be to make sure that we can address them and get them on board. And it sounds like a lot of rigging it is, but the passing that time out front will really help you save time down the road. All right, that was Janice Chan. She’s consultant Shift and scaffold on DH. Also Darby arika, director of information technology at Urban Teachers. You are with non-profit radios coverage of twenty nineteen, the non-profit Technology Conference. All of our nineteen ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks so much for being with us. I need to take a break. Wagner, CPS. They’re free. Webinar came and went earlier this month. Tips and tricks for your nine ninety you missed it. You suck. No, but you can get it back. You watch the archive? Yes. Lamenting wayward listener that’s you gets the archive. You learn how to use your nine ninety as a marketing tool. You goto Wagner cps dot com Click seminars go to the month of April. I know it’s a little convoluted, but they don’t have a landing page there. Wagner cps dot com Click seminars Go to April and you’LL find tips and tricks for your nine ninety. Now time for Tony’s take to be the one that is my video this week. Inspired by in an Air Force reunion that I put together. It’s not really fair for me to say I hosted it because it was on the Air Force base, where we all worked Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri in the mid to late eighties, and about thirty five of us came together and then you add spouses was like fifty people, a total, but we all had this shared experience of doing an unusual job. We were launch officers for Minuteman nuclear missiles at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri in the Reagan years, and so we came together and It was just wonderful seeing everybody reconnecting you. No way have had we’ve had to reunion since then, So some of us have gotten together at other times. But some of us we have some haven’t been seen since, like nineteen eighty eight eighty nine. But there’s a re connection immediate, and that was the inspiration from my video. Be the one and what? What I mean by that? You’re just gonna have to watch. The video is at tony martignetti dot com, and that is Tony. Take do now. It’s Miller time. No, it’s not Miller. It’s Maria time. Real simple. Maybe Maria drinks Miller. I don’t know. Probably not. She has better taste. She has better taste in that. She’s much, much more refined. She’s, Ah, she’s the prospect. Find her. She’s our our trainer all. She’s a Strainer and speaker on Prospect Research. He’s our research contributor. Her latest book is Magnify Your Business Tips, tools and Strategies for Growing Your Business or Your non-profit. She’s our Doi End of Dirt, cheap and free. She’s at the prospect finder dot com and at Maria Simple Maria. Simple. Welcome back after many, many months. Yes, thank you for having me back. It’s great to be here. Absolutely. You’ve been absent since Hurricane Florence, which you and I all know know verywell. Now we track hurricanes because we live in North Carolina very close to each other on that was last September, like September twelfth or so. Yes. You’re supposed to have been on. And you had to. You had to cancel because the hurricane was imminent. Yes, I was evacuating your evacuating, right. We had an evacuation order in my town, too. On. That’s last September. Now, are you Are you done with? You had some damage. You had more damaged than I did. Are you done re rebuilding? No, they haven’t even started. Yeah, that’s the problem that people don’t get. It’s hard is held to get contractors. And this is back from September. We’re talking about September. Well, yeah, well, we’ve got this contractors on site, but there have been a lot of insurance related issues, so that’s a whole other thing. Yeah, well, there’s that too, but but just the idea of getting contractors, people don’t realize that. Of course, I never did When I lived here in the city that it’s it’s It’s not uncommon for it to be years later. I mean, I guess we experienced it somewhat with Katrina. You saw, you know, the one year anniversary, the two year anniversary. But everybody, you know, Katrina struck me as a riel aberration. Although now as the climate changes, it’s it’s less so. But at the time, it seemed like, you know, it couldn’t be that devastating. But But even just Hurricane Florence from last September in the Carolinas, it is devastating. And people are still rebuilding and have not like like you. Yeah. Yeah. Still still waiting on a lot of a lot of work to get done. But you know what? I’m grateful and blessed to still have a roof over my head and we can live in our space so that that’s all good. Yeah, yesterday. I mean, when I say rebuilding, you weren’t destroyed. But you had you had damage damage in your in your apartment. What do you It’s a townhouse. Where do you have their townhouse? Condo. Thank you. Answer. Okay. That word eluded me. That’s a That’s an advance word from a condo. Right on your in your condo. Alright. So welcome back. It’s been many many months. I’m glad you’re back. Thank God you’re back. Um, so we’re talking about ethics? Um, what’s I mean? There is a lot of there’s a ton of private information and personal info, and you know, they have to be boundaries around what we collect and how we save what we do collect. That’s that’s issues here. Yes. So, you know, that’s definitely a lot of the issues here. You know, it’s it’s interesting because sometimes people will call me and they will say, You know, Maria, I need you to work up profiles, whatever these five or ten people we need, Thio know everything they’re interested in. You need to know their network on DH a sentence. They actually, as soon as they say that word network. I know that there’s a certain level of educating that I’m going to have to do even if I begin to start to work with this particular client. And and the reason for that is because what we as prospect researchers have access to, So whether you’re working for a small to midsize non-profit or you’re a college or university or ah ha, that all you have on ly to information that’s in the public domain. We do not have access to private information such as credit reports, right? So it’s important to make that distinction. Because when we’re looking at publicly available sources, we can never come up with a net worth. I don’t tell someone. Yeah, we’re going to get into detail on the Net worth conversation. I know you. Yeah, You specifically have wrote something on it. We’Ll get to that. Um but so let’s let’s let’s pursue what you just said about public versus private sources. I mean, I would think that when your clients hire you to do prospect research or when we task our prospect researchers if their in house, uh, we want all sources, whatever you can get it. Where did you get your hands on? No, right, that’s not so right. That’s that’s an uninformed doesn’t mean she can’t get your hands on. It might not be something that your organization would consider ethical. So an example of this might be, um, divorce records, right? So sometimes those be publicly access. However, think about this. If if you have to stop and think to yourself, how would how would this donor for a perspective donor-centric er ds. And if the answer to that is G, they might sever the relationship with our organization altogether. Then it’s simply not worth looking at those divorce records or even hey, even, maybe not. Maybe not be so extreme, but they would be upset that we were evaluating that. But But But But it has value. Okay, so let’s have a conversation. So I’m gonna push back. It has value to the organization. Um, if I’m trying to find out how much a person’s settlement is in a in a divorce, you know that that goes to what I think their capability is for giving to my organization. How much they gained or lost in a divorce is goingto figure into that calculus, all right, but just let’s say they’ve gained a million dollars from that divorce settlement. Are you entitled necessarily to that million dollars? It’s just like anybody making their money in any other way. Just because they have it doesn’t mean that they would want to gift any part of that settlement here working well, you, But you could say that about you could say that about anything. You could say that about their salary. Just because they make one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year doesn’t mean I’m entitled to any of it or one and a half million dollars a year. You could say that about anything, right? But that’s why I think you really want to rely more heavily on good old development, work and cultivation and developing a relationship and under standing what those people have an interest in funding on DH whether it’ll the lines properly rather than knowing the final settlement amount of what their divorces. Okay, But it’s still I mean, I I agree that it’s unseemly, but I’m I’m challenging it anyway because, uh, you’re stuck with me as the host. I mean, that’s the best. You’re the best reason I’ve come up with. So you’re stuck with it. You can either hang up or continue. It’s your choice on I’LL be fine without you. So don’t worry. You know, if you want to end up going so I mean, I’ll entertain myself. If nobody else, I just amuse myself. Um, no. Okay, so now but it’s still it goes to their potential. I mean, you’re you look at other sources of potential, right? Like like you public public public stock holdings, right? If the person happens to be an insider, you and I have talked about this, so this is not jargon jail material. You know, I’ve talked about this. If they’re an Insider Inc. Then their public, their their their stock holdings are public. That goes to their capacity to give. So why write? You have to find another reason why divorce settlement either gain or loss is not is not valuable info because because so far so far it’s analogous to a matter of public of insider stock. So when those when those insider stockholders file with the federal with the SEC right, the Securities and Exchange Commission, they know that this becomes part of a public filing that is completely searchable online, etcetera, etcetera. Operation will have it on their website. No eso again. It’s just what is the perception that they’re goingto have of you looking at the different types of records. So I think that again, and it’s just if your organization ends up having a policy that it’s perfectly fine to do that, then that’s fine. But I think that you do need to make a decision about you know if if are there certain types of records that you will consider off limits for your organization and just put a policy in place, whatever. Whatever way you decide to go, in the matter of, say, divorce records, for example, what’s another word not going against your policy? Do you think of another category of data? That’s Ah, a gray area. Um, you’re a professional, and you’re professional researcher. Yeah, well, you’ve been asked three years for other stuff that you felt uncomfortable with. Well, they’re what they’re I can remember one time in particular when I was researching an individual. Ah, that I decided not to put something in writing because I knew that the perspective donor-centric lorcan ization And this is this is across the board. You need to be aware of this, uh, altum non-profits do that. They could walk into your organization and say, Show me what you’ve amassed on the show Me any. Tell me my donor records. Show me my files. Right. Uh, so you need to be able to turn that over and know that they’ve been written in a very subjective and objective way. I’m sorry and not put anything subjective into it. No subjective statement. So, for example, there was something that I passed along to a development officer verbally, as opposed to putting it in writing, because I felt that it was going to potentially jeopardize our relationship that they were developing with that individual. However, it was very important that the development office, they’re new, that this person had insider trading and had done some paid a lot of fines for it in their background because they were considering this person as treasurer for the organisation Esso. I felt that it was my duty to toe let this officer know that this was in this person’s background because they just didn’t know that, right? Very Jermaine. Yeah, I think you might have used that as an example some other time for something else we talked about. That sounds familiar. Yeah, okay, but it’s a good one. It’s a poignant story. Okay, okay. All right, so So I. So I guess you’re saying divorce records. That’s the main. That’s the main thing that you find unseemly. And I do kind of like your standard do of what would if someone came in and read everything that we have on them. What would they say? How would they feel on that? That’s going to go to not only what you include, but how you describe it to how you describe your conversations with them. You know, you and I both agree that the best some of the best research, not all some of the best research comes from face to face meetings. How do you describe those meetings in your CR M after you’re back from the lunch or the dinner on DH? So thinking how the person would evaluate that feel about it could shade how you describe it? Okay, I gotto now. I just did a lot of talking. I gotta take a break. Hold on, Maria Simple. Stand by our last Break last break text to give you diversify your revenue by adding mobile e-giving. It is a misconception that this is only for disasters. That’s not true. You can build relationships by text. You do what you do it all the time with your family and friends. You can build relationships with donors as well. It’s very possible to do through texting. You learnt how, with the five part email, many course, um, to get into the many course you text NPR two four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Now we gotta do the live listener, love. Ah, and it’s Ah, live listeners are in starting abroad. Seoul, Seoul, South Korea Gotta send annual haserot comes a ham Nida, of course, to Seoul Moscow, Russia Welcome Moscow on DH Hanoi Hanoi, Vietnam Sometimes Vietnam is with us, but we can’t see the city. But today we can we know. We know it’s Hanoi. Welcome, live! Listen, love to Vietnam and also Istanbul, Turkey. Very happy to have you with us Live love to you and Burundi. I’m sorry. We cannot see your city Brandy, but we know you are with us. So live love. I think that’s a first for burned e cool. And here in the U. S. Only couple Tampa, Florida Live love to you New York, New York Multiple love to see that. And on the heels of the live listen, love comes the podcast Pleasantry are pleasant trees. It’s multiple. There’s more than one listener podcast. In fact, they’re over thirteen thousand, so I can’t just send one pleasantry. The pleasantries to you so glad that you are with us. However, non-profit radio fits into your schedule. Pleasantries to you. Thank you for being with us on the podcast. Now, we’ve got lots more time for ethics in your prospect research. Um, anything you want to say, Marie Sample. I gave a big diatribe, and then I cut you off with a with a with a break. Anything you want to add or comment on About what I just said. Now, Now, I think I think we covered that in general. But I did want to spend a little bit of time talking about, you know, potential code of ethics that the organization might want to follow on where they could find some guidelines. Yes, you get your dirt free and dirt free. Resource is cheapen defremery everything. Okay, So there’s this awesome organization that you’ve heard me mention it before. That professional researchers prospect researchers either belong to it were at minimum, will adhere to their code of ethics and its apra a p r a. Dahna work. So that stands for the Association of Professional Researchers for Advancement. And the thing about APRA is that they’ve got this page of their website that is actually dedicated to their statement of ethics. So it would be great if your listeners at least went to the after a website. Took a look at the ethics statement Whether or not you remember and really take a look at you know what is involved? What are the areas that you need to be aware of as you’re putting together your your code of ethics for your organization. And they’ve even got a wonderful ethics tool kit. A za pdf document that’s chock full of great resource is so I really would encourage your listeners to go check out our our listeners. Maria. Simple, please. You made that mistake. You made that part in that pronounced twice. I share the listselect hours. No ownership here. Yes. So I I went through. I was disappointed with the statement of ethics. I I found it kind of vague. However, the tool kit had the good examples. Like I was looking for examples. All right, um, of you know, they talk about, for instance, in the statement of ah, statement of ethics, they talk about bilich shall only record data that is appropriate to the fund-raising process. So I was thinking for I was looking for examples of what’s inappropriate, but it gets flushed out when you go to the when you go to the tool kit now, right? So let’s, uh let’s talk a little about Oso in the ethics statement, it suggests a couple things like you should not be. You should not be friending prospects that you’re doing research on with your personal accounts for one is that that’s right. Is that your statement? Yes, yes, that’s correct. And and also, you should be transparent when you are doing any type of research on behalf of your organization, right? So if you’re, uh if you’re if you’re calling somewhere to find out, you know, whatever. Somebody stop holdings are something like that, you know, in public stockholding records and and they ask you, you know who’s calling you. You have to be transparent as to who you are on DH, you know, and what organizations of your work you know as well. So you want to just make sure that your you do have maintained the standard. Okay, so So when you’re calling, you’re not just saying, uh, my name is Maria Simple, but you’re giving the name of the organization that you’re calling on behalf of two. Is that what you mean? Right? And quite frankly, it is rare that you’re going to be asked for, you know? So when they’re publicly source to information, they’re typically not going to be asking, you know who’s calling? I mean, I’ve never called. For example, if I can’t find information on tax assessment records, right or tax property tax records and I call it an assessor’s office, they’ve never really asked Who is this? Why are you asking? Because they know it’s publicly available information. They just give you the information that you’re looking for, you know, on that property record so you can call and ask about any property you know, anywhere in the United States, and you’d be able to get that information without being asked. But if in the in the event that you ever are rushed to be transparent, so the same goes on social media, right, um, you can That’s why you don’t want to make a fake profile. But I know I saw that. Yeah, people do that. You don’t want to make a fake Lincoln profile with the, you know, with the intention of trying to take all these people into becoming your first degree connections just so that you can reap all this wonderful information off their profile, right? Because now they might be okay. Here’s an interesting one. Suppose they’re talking about their divorce on, um, Now, don’t make it Facebook, because the likelihood of friending prospect on Facebook is pretty slim, I think. But let’s see. Well, wait. Now let’s see if they’re If they’re a fan of your organization Page, does their personal feed become visible to you? No. No, it doesn’t. No, no, it doesn’t work that way. Okay, but if they made any comments, you know, on DH, I got in. Any person would make a comment about their divorce, and I’m trying to I’m trying to make it more like trying to make it more likely. Okay. Suppose this supposes Twitter, Um, suppose you’re the organization is following them on Twitter. Um, and, uh, and there another bitter. Or maybe they’re ecstatic. Maybe they did great. You know, maybe the guy reaped a big reward. Um, it feels like he you know, he’s got over. So the guy or the woman is now bragging on Twitter and you’re following them. That’s that’s public now. Right now, it’s now it’s public. Now it’s public. So in my opinion, I think my fellow researchers would probably agree with this. It would be perfectly fine Teo to take a screenshot or quote what was said and then give attribution to the day, uh, that you saw this particular quote on Twitter. Ah, and but again write it in a very objective way. So you know you don’t write. You don’t introduce it by saying, you know, looks like metoo windfall in their divorce, as evidenced by the tweets. And, you know, just you know this so and so commented on their divorce by saying, you know, the couple was divorced, It would appear the divorce is final and the prospect had the following tweet regarding their divorce. Not now. Very objectively written. Okay, I agree. I see. Um, so going into the going into the er going to the tool kit? Um, they said something about list sharing that I was surprised by, um, list sharing. Never share lists with volunteers, key stakeholders, um, etcetera, etcetera. But But they were saying they said volunteers and key stakeholders. But we’ve talked about Andi. I’ve had other guests to talk about sharing lists with board members. But but this opportunity, it says you shouldn’t be sharing this with volunteers and key stakeholders. What do you make of that? Yes, so again have a very clear policy in place. So if your organization’s policy would be that the only stakeholders who would have access to discussion of proactively created list would be boardmember and state that on DH, then maybe put together ah, confidentiality confidentiality policy for your volunteers board members on employees. Also, by the way, on DH, we could talk a little bit later about a particular organization that has an excellent example of those types confidentiality agreements. But if you are going to start doing that type of list creation, discussion of lists or even quite frankly, discussion of any prepared profiles that you have on individuals, it’s going to be a good idea. Tto have thes confidentiality policies in place. Okay, okay, shut out the organization now go ahead. The one that has good, good examples. What right? And so there’s one called the National Council of non-profits. Ah, and the the way I actually got to their their confidentiality agreement was actually through through the two tool kit and through operas website. So that would be a really good place for you to start. And then, you know, get your way over to those agreements that they get very good samples that you could literally just, you know, very easily modify, um, plug in the name of your organization, you know, run it by your attorneys to make sure that being the language would be appropriate for your organization and then actually have these folks sign it. So, Fury, let’s say you’re only going to have the Development committee is going to be the only folks that have access to any, uh, any of these profiles or these lists that you create and make sure that everybody on that development committee, whether they be a boardmember or outside the board, you might have you might have some outside boardmember is also involved in development efforts. Have them sign the agreement as well. And then these documents have to be treated properly after they’re after there. You set the board meeting, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. If you decide to print anything out, be extremely careful about what happens with those documents. Try not to let any of them walk out of the room, make sure you’ve got a shredder in house. The last thing you want is for something to go into the trash and, you know, or recycling or whatever and then get, you know, literally the wind blow it around the neighborhood. So did you want to be careful? And even though it’s all publicly sourced information, still, it is something that, uh, that they were accepted the donor or perspective donor. You know, out there in aggregate, it could be a lot more valuable than individual discrete pieces of data that people have to go and find on, especially when it’s a list of fifty potential major donors, etcetera or even foundations. All right, I want to give you a shout out. You are. You are named in the Capital kit because you wrote an article about being more than networth for from non-profit times and we so So you already already explained why you need need no liabilities, not just assets if you if you’re going to do real net worth. But they shot you out in the tool kit. So I wanted to mention that. Okay, wait. Just have thiss flies, but it always does with you. So we just have, like, thirty seconds left. Um, wrap us up. Okay. So to wrap this up, then you’ve got all this wonderful information. Make sure that it is stored in a secure way. Locked file, password protected files if you you share it through e mail. Make sure through password protected, encrypted ways that you’re communicating this thes profiles and so forth on. So make sure that the data is all security in some way. Ah, if your whatever you’re using Teo as your cr m Teo donorsearch software, make sure it’s password protected. And I know exactly who has access to those passwords, then change them often. Thank you very much. Maria. Simple. She is the Prospect Finder trainer and speaker on Prospect Research are doi and of their cheapened free you’ll find her at the prospect finder dot com And at Marie, a simple thank you again. Maria, Thank you for having me. Good to see you again. Thanks. My pleasure. Next week, more from the non-profit technology conference. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuing by witness Deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations. Made Easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine A Creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer show. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other ninety five percent Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network e-giving Good. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern Time and listen for new ideas on my show yawned potential Live life your way on talk radio dot N Y c Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Yeah, Theo. Best designs for your life start at home. I’m David here. Gartner interior designer and host of At Home Listen, Live Tuesday nights at eight p. M. Eastern Time As we talk to the very best professionals about interior design and the design, that’s all around us right here on talk radio dot N. Y c. You’re listening to Talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. If are you a conscious co creator, Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen live at our new time on Thursdays at twelve noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s twelve noon on talk radio dot You’re listening to the Talking Alternative network oppcoll

Nonprofit Radio for August 18, 2017: 5-Minute Marketing for Planned Giving & What’s Fair Game?

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Me: 5-Minute Marketing for Planned Giving

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Maria Semple: What’s Fair Game?

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Info you find on LinkedIn about a potential donor belongs in your report on the person. What about Facebook and Instagram? What if the tidbit is embarrassing or compromising, but valuable to your org? Should you friend prospects to learn more? Maria Semple walks us through the ethical conundrums. She’s our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder. (Sounds much more interesting than the first segment.)




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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d become fei broke calcification if you hardened to me with the idea that you missed today’s show five minute marketing for planned e-giving the best person to reveal my wildly simple plan giving promotion tips is me oh boy, i don’t know what i’ve gotten into, but i’m here and what’s fair game info you find on linked in about a potential donor belongs in your report on the person. What about facebook and instagram? What if the tidbit is embarrassing or compromising but valuable to your organization? Should you friend prospects tto learn more about them? Maria semple walks us through the ethical conundrums she’s, our prospect research contributor and the prospect finder this sounds much more interesting than the first segment and ah, much easier sarrantonio take two planned giving timing we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com all right, well there is not a guest to welcome because, uh, i’m it, um, it’s a little awkward, because although i do a ton of speaking training this, you know that i don’t know, i think it’s very different that’s on a stage, people expect to hear me because i’m in the program it’s not like i just walked in, but i have crashed a few conferences, but they never up on stage. It hasn’t been successful yet, but those aside, you know, i’m in the program i mean, i mean, alright, i’m in today’s program it’s been booked, i’m booked for the spot, but the show is never been me sharing, you know, for, like, for a full segment. What? What i purport to know about planned e-giving or charity registration. You know, i filled in from time to time. Ah, guest is lead or a segment ran short maybe a pre recorded thing man short. And so i would fill in for, like, five minutes or seven minutes or so think is probably the most, but this is, uh this is a different one. This is different experience. Andi, i’m ah, i’m a little nervous about it. My voice just cracked like i’m a fourteen year old. Um all right, well, i mean, i certainly capable, but it feels weird that’s what i’m saying, it just feels different. This is not my typical venue for me to be speaking without having somebody to talk to. Let me just do a little technical detail first, sam is the facebook shared on facebook live shared on the non-profit radio page, can we, uh because i don’t want it just on my personal pager doing facebook live today? I don’t know if maria simple is going to do facebook live on her end, but you’ll you’ll certainly be hearing her when when it’s her turn. But look at me. I’m already rushing to the second segment already know this is this is okay. Not yet. Not yet. Maria, hang on. Okay, so you want to share the facebook live to the non-profit radio page so that it’s called tony martignetti non-profit radio. Okay, i have to do it on mine. Okay, so ah, i apologized, teo, podcast listeners for ah, for this. You know, just give me a little technological moment, okay? I’m in my facebook. Ah, i see. Live what? Ah, sam’s. Gonna say, i’m gonna take my phone and take care of that and of course, you know, we’re gonna get to the five minute marketing tips. Just hold your horses. You’ve got a nerve, you know, nervous guest. Okay, sam is going to take care of that. So five minute marketing i haven’t expanded version of this that i have done at conferences runs on for ninety minutes or so you’re not getting that version. Don’t we’re going to keep to the toe? Keep to the hour. Okay, but, you know, i mean, if you want me, tio training your conference. I love teo. I love to speak just this is today’s a little weird. So so here’s what? I ah anticipate we’re going to cover very briefly. What plans giving is we’ll make sure everyone’s on the same page with that. What kinds of non-profits benefit? Like what? What do you need to have in place before you can start your plan giving five minute marketing. Okay, on dh. What? The radical revocable planned gift are that that we’re going to be talking about marketing for and there’s a lot more plan giving beyond revocable but that’s what’s going to talk, you know, which is like scratching the surface, you know? Well, it’s, not bite off too much. I want you to get going with plant. E-giving and it doesn’t have to be in depth. So we’re starting with the revocable, and then we’ll get into the marketing tips, which is the bulk of book of our time. Okay, i’m feeling a lot more comfortable but it’s still also a little weird now, it’s like fifty, fifty instead of like ninety ten on the weighted to the weird side now, it’s like fifty fifty okay. Plan giving this’s a method of giving that is long term, involves the donors consideration of their long term plans. Their state plans a retirement plans very different than asking a donor, too, right? A fifty dollar check or even a half a million dollar check or a five million dollar check. These thes gif ts involved more personal considerations of family on dh. How your charity fits into their much longer term plan. And then, typically, these are cash to your organization when the donor dies. So again, long term, if you get a sixty or sixty five year old to include you in their will, they’ve got a twenty five, thirty, thirty five year longevity. So long term. You need to have this long term view of fund-raising. Your board needs to have that. We’re going to get to that board support. But this is not the type of giving that is going to pay the five year capital plan. Or or, you know, any kind of immediate immediate budget needs that you have. This is long term fund-raising. I want to stress that the outset that this is not on ly for your wealthy donors, i mean, the five minute mark in tips i’m going to be giving you these these quick ideas, these air, we’re going to be doing these for all your donors. We’re not getting into discriminating by age, um, because these are easy tips. So i want you to know that these are ideas that are appropriate for any donor-centric to get to this is not on ly for your wealthy donors and all of plant that applies to all of planned e-giving people are very modest means can be terrific planned give prospects i literally mean, if they have been giving you fifteen dollars, a year and they have been doing it for many years, like twelve of the past fifteen years, or eighteen or nineteen or twenty years of the past twenty, they are great plan giving prospects. This is not playing e-giving is not only for your wealthy donors, please take that away and that does not applied on ly to what we’re talking to about today. All of planned e-giving people have very modest means, very modest can include you. In their state plan, the smallest plan to gift i’ve ever seen was a thousand dollars in someone’s will and that’s very rare that i’ve seen that only a handful of times in twenty years. Thank you seventeen twenty years i’ve been doing plan giving only seen a couple seen that a couple of times the average charitable bequests in which you’re gonna be talking about a lot about will’s requesting a will, the average is around thirty six to thirty seven thousand dollars is the average bequest, so please take away planned giving is not on ly for your wealthy donors. Um, we’re going to ah, i just got, you know, we’re going to take our break now, and when we come back, then we’re going to get into what you need to have in place, what kind of non-profits benefit what these revocable gifts are that we were talking about and the marketing tips stay with me. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent since people joining us because that voice again joining us on facebook live. I gotta gotta shout them out. J frost hello. Thank you. Interesting subject. You’ve had me. Uh, jay, didn’t we set something up there? I speak about this. Or maybe i did charity registration for you, but j, are you running for congress? I heard that. I don’t know if it’s true. Let me know if you are running. I admire that very much. If you are. If you’re not, i, uh i still admire you, but you’re a little more lackluster than if you are running. Jackie likened jackie, laken maria and and that’s it okay, so far so far. Ok, cool. Thanks for being with me on facebook. All right, let’s, get into which organizations benefit right now. By the way, i feel much more comfortable now. Now. It’s like ninety five five in my comfort in this format, speaking alone. All right, so what do you need to have in place? You need to have individual donors? If you are strictly grant funded government funded fee for service funded, then you don’t have any potential for plan giving. You need to have individual people e-giving from their pockets and that’s distinguished from people who get you corporate gifts from their employers. That’s different you need to have people giving from their pockets, maybe it’s just your board. I hope all your board is giving from their individual pockets. They certainly should be. Lots of guests have made that case over the years, but, you know, it’s limited to the extent that you have individual donors, if you have lots of people who give individual gifts and great that that is a prerequisite also some longevity i’d like to see at least five years in an organization, because what are we asking the donors to do put you in their will or their other long term plans? Retirement said retirement or state plans inherent in that is the belief that your organization is going toe outlive them. And even though there’s, great passion and even fury sometimes around, you know, new organizations, they’re going to live forever. Your donors don’t may not have the same confidence probably don’t that you do when you’re a brand new organization, so i’d like to see at least five years that gives some confidence that your organization will survive the people who make these plan gifts for you some depth to i’d like to see more than just ah, founder and one or two people, same reason longevity, you know, you might have small potential again. Maybe just you’re bored if you’re just a founder and one or two people. But ah, outsiders is going to be much harder to persuade outsiders that you will survive them if ifit’s a tiny organization just a few people. The long term view of fund-raising i explained why before this could be thirty years waiting for cash to come to your organization. So you need to have a long term view of fund-raising um, and you’re bored metoo needs to understand that building endowment, i hope every knows what endowment is just in case endowment is that fund that you never spend the principle of you only spend, eh? Well, you may not. You only spend income and you may not even spend all the income you have a very good year in your returns, you know, in eight or ten or twelve percent year because non-profits are typically conservatively invested, you’re probably not spending that eight or ten percent, you’re spending a lot less like half of that because they’re going to be years when we turned your lower but that’s the purpose of an endowment isto live perpetually live forever. Hopefully, you’re never spending more than income and plant giving is perfect for building endowment because so many plan gifts are unrestricted and they could get put into that endowment fund, and even a lot of the restricted ones can go to endowment of creating endowed funds for aa program of yours. Ah, scholarships or popular if it’s ah, you know, if it’s some kind of school college, anything you know, really a donor could endow just about anything programmatically, as long as you are willing your organization’s willing to continue that program. So plan giving very good for building endowment. That board support. I mentioned any new initiative. If you’re gonna start planned giving, you need to have the board on board and aware of the long term nature of these kinds of gifts six months into this, you don’t want to boardmember complaining, we haven’t recognized any cash. You’re spending time, even if you say it’s only five minute marketing and but where’s the cash you don’t want that so set the expectations correctly at the outset, but your board members know again long term could be twenty, thirty years for some donors until the cash is received by your organization and any type of mission. I really don’t care what you do if you’re saving animals the sky, trees, educating, feeding, sheltering what else can we be doing? You know any of the charitable missions, anything religious, anything, social service, cultural museums. I worked in the north buried, um, you name it. Anything charitable, it doesn’t matter. Everything i’m going to sixth explain applies for you fund-raising across all charitable missions guaranteed um snusz cj frost in answer didn’t answer whether is going for congress. All right, maybe he’s not. Oh, not yet. He says. Not yet. Okay, well, getting there? Yeah. It’s easy for me to say. Why did you do it? Tony? Martignetti plant giving. So when we are ah, yes, this is this has come up for me a lot. Sexism. I want you to avoid not giving women the attention that they deserve in planned e-giving this goes back to january two thousand eleven, you can go to tony martignetti dot com could see the block post. Just just search sexism. A tony martignetti dot com. You’ll see the post i did and one of the comments. So what i’m what i’m quoting now from is from a comment not me surprise, not quoting myself. There were women who said that they had dropped hints, left messages, sent emails or boldly said something about a state planning and planned e-giving two non-profits that they had been supporting and this was more than one woman, it was one comment or talking about friends of hers, and they have been ignore it. I don’t know how that could possibly happen that is gross negligence and oversight just don’t don’t ignore women. I mean, they have money and they live longer than men, so a lot of men are giving the money to the women. But even if they didn’t, even if they had a shorter life span, they’re still half the population, women have wealth, and they want to support non-profits, so i don’t know how these hints, messages and bold statements could possibly be ignored. Don’t let that happen in your office, it’s gross. All right, we’re moving now to the what what types of gifts i’m talking about. The revocable plan gifts the three. I want to focus on our charitable bequests, that’s, a gift in your will. I got more detail on that living trusts to type of trust that people set up is not charitable purpose. It’s not set up for charitable purposes, but you could be a part of it and being named a beneficiary. Okay, those are the three revocable gifts that were focusing on today. There’s, a ton more you, khun do cracking again, oppcoll sip. Pardon me. Ton more you can do with planned giving, but oppcoll um, i’m only focusing on three things today that these three revocable gifts cherokee, facebook live says yes, we do. Tony yes, women have money and they want to give it don’t ignore them. All right, so these are the three revocable gifts that i’m focusing on because, you know, it’s only a half an hour now and now i feel like i don’t give myself enough time she’d done the whole show. Maria simple, you’re out, you’re out. I’m going out for sixty, all right? No, no, uh, let’s. See? And i want you to know that you can have a very, very respectable planned e-giving program just by focusing on these three revocable gifts, your organization may not be big enough to go any further, and that is fine. And you can have a really respectable, successful plan giving program if you just focus on these three types of gift. Well, you’re already feeling like i’m going to run out of time. All right, all right. So please take that away along with its not only for your wealthy donors. Please take away that you could be a very successful planned giving shop just focusing on these three revocable gif ts absolutely you’re bigger. You want to go further? Absolutely, andi, i worked a lot of organizations that do but also work with a lot that don’t all right. This charitable bequests again, it’s a gift in somebody’s will it’s the most popular kind of planned gift by far, you can expect like seventy five to eighty percent of the gifts that you get to be gifts by will. Why is that? Lots of reasons people don’t have to tell you that they’ve done it? It’s private, we always asking we always want people to tell you because you want to be able to say thank you, but they don’t have to, they can change their minds. This national statistic is like four percent of people change their minds after they put a charity in a will so it’s highly highly unlikely, but you don’t want to be in that four percent. You’ve got to treat your donor’s well and it’s comforting to donors to know that they can change their minds because that’s why a lot of donors don’t tell you because they feel if they do. Tell you, they then have an obligation not to change their minds. We all know that that’s not true. You can change your will anytime you want. I cut my wife out routinely every couple days. There’s. Nothing left for her, but u s so it’s comforting to your donors to know that they can cut you out, even though it’s highly unlikely. But it’s a reason that’s another reason that gift by will are so popular because it’s comforting to donors to know that no lifetime cost this is money that comes out of your state. Lots of people have charity they’re supporting, they wish they could doom or than they can while they’re living. I’m in that situation, but they can do for you cracker voice again. They can do for you mme, or they could do more for you in their state so that maybe their ultimate gift has to be for a lot of people again, remember modest, modest means donors of modest means. They wish they could do more, but they can’t, but that’s an advantage in that there’s no lifetime cost to these. Okay, that’s really? Pretty much all i want to say about requests. No, except for do they get a charitable deduction. Doesn’t matter because these are people who love your love. Your non-profit they’re already donating to you. These are the kinds of people who’re gonna include you in their will. So the charitable deduction, the estate tax deduction who knows what the state of it is going to be in the future? We have no idea, even within the next couple weeks and months, let alone twenty, thirty years from now. But that’s not the primary motivation for most planned gift it’s not that it’s, not the state tax deduction, so don’t worry about it. Okay? The other one, we won’t talk about his living trusts. As i said, it’s set up um, teo, not for charitable purposes. They set it up. People set it up for expedience to get get things out of their state faster. It works because there’s not a court supervised process like if if like it isn’t with a will called that you might have heard this probate process jargon jail, but the probate processes the court supervising the distribution of your assets after your death and by the way, i was death, you know that some people like to i don’t kind ofyou from eyes passing demise. The fact is, you know, we’re going to die and that’s ah that’s, just a part of planned e-giving and when i’m not saying, when you talk to a donut, you’re saying, when you die, we want you in our will we want to be in your will i’m not saying that, but between professionals, you know we can we can say death so that’s what probate is that court supervised process and the assets will get to ah teo ball beneficiaries quicker through a living trust and that’s typically white set up what’s your part in it. The trust has to say what happens at the donors at the death of the person who creates the trust. That’s, your donor has to say what happens. Ah lot goes to my husband, children, husband, wife, children, grandchildren, your charity khun b also one of those beneficiaries at the person’s death you could be named that’s. What? That’s what the value of the living trust is and the third one recovering is the name the beneficiary that’s? Just i’m gonna stop calling out my voice cracks that’s. The last one. I’m calling out the name beneficiary. Anything that has a death benefit. Think of life insurance, that’s, the most common example. You’ve got to decide where the death benefit is going to go, when, when, when you’re where’s, the money going to go most of it goes to husbands, wives, children, grandchildren. But maybe there’s a percentage for your charity. Five percent. Ten percent somebody can carve out. We always say family comes first. But after that, how about a small percentage for for our charity? But going beyond life insurance, some retirement plans, iras four oh, one case for three. B’s cept the small, small employer pensions. Some commercial annuities have death benefits. Some checking and savings accounts have ah, on brokerage accounts have have death benefit metoo them. So anything that has a death benefit your charity can be named all right now we’re getting into the actual five minute marketing tips that i have let’s start with events, drop a few speaking points into remarks were already hosting the event is not a plan giving event but any kind of gala. Any event where your c always speaking that’s probably everyone get them to say something about planned giving. You just need a couple of sentences. This’s. Not even well, i was gonna say not even a full paragraph, but two sentences. Khun b paragraph this is not even a full minute literally. I’m excited. We’ve kicked off a campaign to encourage you to remember us. You know, the organization in your will, it’s, very simple to do and secures our work long into the future. For instance, you know, then you can name a program or something that could be that could be endowed. I was talking about earlier, perpetually, or you could just, you know, rattle off program that you have. You know, you can support any of our great programs. You want more information? Talk to there’s a director development in the corner, you know, you know her. Talk to me. Talk to whoever it is. That’s it it’s like three, four sentences, quick it’s not the main part of the event by any means. Just we’ve kicked off a campaign. That’s a little news hook. It was something interesting kicked off this campaign. Love for you to be a part of it. It’s so simple you couldn’t tao any of our great programs support any of our great programs in the long term. Please talk. Teo. Whoever it is a t end of the program that’s it. I didn’t even spend a minute. Good thinking. I’m gonna run out of time. I should have we’re simple, you’re out. Um okay, five minute marketing was teo. So moron events pretty a program. You already printing a program for pizza? Put something about plan giving in the program. Put a little mention, you know, i’m the evangelist for plan e-giving without the religious overtones of evangelism, but you know, you’re doing the program. Same thing we’ve kicked off a campaign. I’m like dictating it to just start writing. We kicked off a campaign to encourage you to remember us in your will, it’s, so simple to do, secures our work long into the future. Your attorney is going to need our legal name, address and tax id. Here they are. Boom that’s it. Can you put that in your program? But you can or, you know, if you don’t even wanna go that much, just say we kicked off a program. Talk too. Whoever it is, whatever the contact person is. Please. I would love to talk to you today. Get something in the program again. Not spending any more money. You’re already producing programmes anyway. Kayman sample ward is on social media contributor and the ceo of and ten the non-profit technology network out in the prophet oregon. Yes. Wonderful. Welcome, amy. Well mmm. So many. I can’t name them. Uh, not that many more. A couple more. We gotta live. Listen, love too. That’s coming later with second segment. Okay, um okay. That’s it for events again. You not spending any more money already producing the program? Say something. You put something in your already speaking put in a couple of dropping a couple sentences. Oh, my gosh. Print channels. You doing newsletter? Or whether it’s print or email put in a sidebar with the same thing we’ve kicked off a campaign love to have you participate it’s so easy all you need is our two included to include us in your will. Well, you need your legal name, tax id and address. Here they are. Boom! Drop that into a sidebar on any whether it’s print or digital your annual report. Whether you do a printer digital say something about planned giving, innit? Also now i know some organizations i know are getting away from naming donors. I’ve learned that that’s in their annual report, it was always so cumbersome, you get the misspellings and i got so embarrassing the wrong levels. But if you’re naming them, if you’re naming donors in the annual report include your plan giving donors any direct mail you might be doing joppa buckslip in, you know, that’s, a book of your buckslip two third of a page, you print three and page drop it in the same thing that i’ve been talking about kicked off a campaign love to have you participate all your attorney needs is our legal name, tax id and address here they are boom drop that in it’s a third of a page doesn’t cost any more doesn’t increase your postage um, while you’re doing that while printing on direct mail printing envelopes on the envelope flap the flap that you’ve got a print, the envelopes anyway a checkoff box send me information on including your or the name, of course in my will we’ll check off everybody reads that everybody sees the envelope flap so easy i think i gotta wrap it up down i say, sam nods all right, so, uh well, time flies. Holy cow. It’s amazing. This show is out of control. What a show! Um, okay, that’s, five minute marketing for planned giving and what’s fair game with maria simple is coming up first pursuing acquisition campaigns. You need more donors, new donors, it’s their next free webinar on acquisition campaigns getting your new donors what works to inspire that first gift. They’ll have lots of examples actionable strategies which i love you know, i’m always drooling down with guests. I don’t know if people get annoyed but durney bluhm welcome on facebook. Cool. Thanks for joining me. Um, i know people get annoyed. I know listeners. Don’t have guests do but drilling down to actionable steps? I don’t like vagary, i don’t like ten thousand i mean sometimes ten thousand feet, yes, but then we got to drill down. You got to start it. You start high level but then we drill down to tactics. Who actionable steps that’s what i love and that’s what pursue is going to have in this in this webinar that’s? Why they’re that’s, why they sponsor non-profit radio for pizza and so s so now where do you go to register gnome or pursuing dot com click resource is took their bernard no that’s out. Don’t do that. Go to the custom, earl. They have a landing page for non-profit radio listeners. They stepped up their game so we’re stepping up. We gotta step up our game and i need listeners to go to this landing page. So, tony dot m a slash pursuant with a capital p please. In bentley, it matters. You gotta have the capital p in pursuing tony dahna slash pursuant that’s where all the pursuing registrations are going to be from now i’m for now provoc radio listeners i announce our three fifty that they pursuing has, uh, renew their sponsorship. So grateful for that, tony that m a slash pursuant capital p for the acquisition campaign’s web in arts on august thirty first, but if you can’t, oh, it doesn’t really matter, because if you can’t watch live, sign up there on that landing page and then you’ll get an email that tells you when the archive is up. But if that happens within forty eight hours of the live, so if you can’t make the r live watching archive, sign up and you’ll get an email tells you how to watch the archive. Tony dahna may slash pursuant, we’ll be spelling. Please watch the video. See what a fun night of millennial fund-raising looks like that can be yours. This could be your fun night it’s devoted to you it’s not so there was some confusion. Some people thought it was a bunch of charity’s one night. No, we’ll be spelling hosts this for you, for your charity, a night of live dance comedy, um, music, live music and spelling and fund-raising for your organization, this could be cool for any millennial supported organization. If you’re trying to acquire millennials on dh encourage them in get them activated or if they’re already supporting. I don’t know. Uh, i know any sample or do you still on? I don’t know. I don’t want anybody on the spot but intent should consider ah, we’ll be spelling. Um, okay, so check out the video. We b e spelling dot com and then talk to the ceo alex career. You know, he’s a nice guy. He was on the three, fiftieth. Just pick up the phone and talk to him. We be the spelling dot com. Now time for tony’s. Take two and, uh, plan e-giving what do you know? What a coincidence. See how this show is orchestrated? This doesn’t just happen. This is a thought goes into this. Or you could say i have such a limited before that the topics have to coincide because i got so i got so naturally that’s going to come up have to sound the same show. No that’s, not the case planned giving the timing does not matter. I want you to get started with plan giving using those five minute marketing tickets i gave you. And it doesn’t matter when you get started. It’s not, you know. This is informational it’s educational it’s not write us a check. Now you know it’s, our it’s, our annual campaign it’s not like that this’s informational stuff educational donors are going to do it on their timetable, but you’ve got to stop start marketing and promoting the idea. That’s okay, so it doesn’t matter when you start so today’s friday for the live listeners yourselves, the weekend maybe take monday to talk to your ceo tuesday should be starting five minute marketing tips in plan e-giving that’s what i would say so give yourself till tuesday on dh for people listening podcast and of course, our affiliate listeners. So that’s, give yourself three days and then on the fourth day on the fourth day, he said you should begin plan e-giving that’s when the light comes, i don’t think it was the fourth day, but i’m not. I’m not steeped in genesis, okay, the video if you need more promote if you need any more encouragement than that, you could watch my video promote planned giving your timing doesn’t matter. It’s at tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two. Maria simple has been patiently waiting. You know her? Aside from a patient waiter, she’s, the prospect finder she’s, a trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her latest book is magnify your business tips, tools and strategies for growing your business or your non-profit she’s. Our doi end of dirt cheap and free ideas. She’s at the prospect finder dot com and at maria simple and she’s on the phone. Hello, maria. Hello, tony. How are you today? I’m doing great. My voice krauz i said i was gonna do that, linda, like kowski joined us. Hello, linda. Jackie liking says hello from noven health. Hello, jackie. I wish you were coming to the beach. She bagged out on me. Um okay. Maria? Yeah. It’s good to talk to you. Last time was very brief on the three, fiftieth that’s, right? That’s, right? And so now we’re plugging ahead to your for four hundred shell, right? That’s? Correct. It’ll be july twenty eighteen. Absolutely. In the meantime, way want to talk about ethics and what’s what’s fair game. What? You deal with this every single time you’re doing an assignment for a client, right? Yeah. Yeah. That’s. Right, tony, i mean, you know, when we’re talking about prospect research and we’re thinking about all the various tools that we have available to us as prospect researchers, you know, we have to think about what’s available in the public domain because that’s, the thing that’s going to be really important, keep in mind that a donor has the right to come in at any time and asked to see what information you may have compiled on them. So you want to make sure that that you’re always using sources that are available in the public domain. So where we kind of get into some gray areas are in the area of social media sites? Yes, okay, and i think that’s a very, very good test never put anything in your c r m database that you wouldn’t want a donor to read, i think that’s a good test. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, and and i think even even in the way that you’re writing up your reports, try and think about it as an investigative reporter trying not to put subjective statements in there, even if they may have been sort of subjective statements that you might have heard, you know, through the grapevine from volunteers or board. Members or whatever about somebody’s lifestyle or their marital status or whatever it may be, you know, try and just put a statement in there, you know, like whatever the couple divorced in x y z, day ten, you know, leave it out that i don’t think anybody would take offense to that very objective. A bunch of people just join us on facebook. So i got to tell you that we’re talking about the ethics of planned, of, of prospect research and what’s appropriate to be documenting and finding about potential donors. And i want to welcome michael zeller, attorney in north carolina. Just charlotte just hosted an outstanding fiftieth birthday party. Oh, my god. Michael, that was outstanding. You know, i know that. You know, i feel that rob maker. Good to see a rab. Welcome. And dahna gillespie dahna collectibe rivera, but i know it. I know. He’s dahna gillespie. Welcome. Um, okay, so but there can be great value in the end. What you find in social media, of course. I mean, people put a lot of stuff on social and their privacy settings are typically, i think, generally not set the way they want them. And but so there can be a lot of prospect research gold in in the networks, right? Yeah, that’s, right? So, you know, what i thought we might do is just sort of talk about sort of the top three networks for a couple of minutes, like the linked in facebook and twitter and may be trying to figure out, well, what types of information can we glean on dh? Should we be cleaning it? Should we be using it? You know, even if we were stumble upon it, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you put it into this. C r m r we’re into a written report. Yeah, okay, it’s, anarchist, but that’s way could do it that way. I’m just you know, i was thinking of some of the things that you could find out. I mean, you can find out about divorce, right? You know, i’ve had friends, i’ve had two friends who were posting about suicidal, suicidal thoughts, you know? I don’t know probably a lot of people see that, but i mean, that’s very disturbing, but does it belong in a prospect research report? Maybe i don’t know, maybe if you’re looking for that plant. Gift let’s not go there. I’m just kidding. Ae okay, i’m gonna let you off the hook. But it’s, good let’s go over that. We’ll skip over that. Okay? You know and and the words very sensitive stuff. Okay, so you want to you want to start with it? Works. All right. Let’s start with now to me, linked in to me, anything on linkedin is fair game in a prospect research report is that is that is that am i overstating and my oversimplifying? Yeah, i think that anything you find on lengthen, especially since lincoln has what they call a public profile that is out there it is searchable on google. It will come up on page one of google’s search results. If you if you google your prospects name, they’re linked in profile is going to be there. So yes, indeed, anything that you find there is going to be a public domain, and this is sometimes very valuable information. You’ll be able to find out, you know, their longevity at various companies. Maybe some of the companies that they’ve been associated with may have been for for a long period of time. Maybe they’ve got some. Stock that they’ve accumulated from within that company so you might want to think about steering the conversation in the direction of appreciated securities. Okay, okay, but we wear what we want to focus to on the ethics. So so basically, linkedin is do you consider linked in to be wide open? Yes. Okay, absolutely. Okay, i don’t see any ethical questions around anything that people might find in linked in. No, not not what they might find, but the ethical question might come in as to how you as the prospect researcher or the executive director of the development staff using length in how you might have your own privacy setting set up in such a way that, um, you know what other people can see once you’ve looked at their profile, right? So you have three choices on lengthen. You either have people know that you’re looking at there, profile your face, your title and where you work, right are going to follow you everywhere on linked in that headline and a picture so that’s full transparency when you have your privacy settings set up that way, that means they get to see you’ve been looking at them. And you get to see who’s been looking at your profile, but lincoln has two other privacy settings. One is sort of a semi private where, you know, you could be a management consultant in x y z industry in new york city area. Or you could be anonymous when you’re in one of those two modes, then people will not know that you’ve been looking at their profile. Okay? And we have covered this before. You know, this is what i consider fully dressed topless and naked. That’s. Right? Okay. All right. Uh, look, i got a chuckle out of maria. Simple she’s. Probably the only one that’s. Okay? I amuse myself. People should know. You know, if you don’t think i’m funny, i’m amusing myself that’s the most important. And i forgot to shut out joan pel xero i’m sorry, joan. I skipped over you. I scrolled up and then i lost you. Joan pills her on facebook. Thanks for so much for being with us. And also ralph asante and, uh, and mary and mary michalowski joined. Hello, mary. Thanks for joining us on facebook. I might do this more often. This is cool. Um all right. So ethically linked in safe now, let’s, go, teo. Ethical conundrum, where you want to go next, all the anarchist, i’ll give it to you where it’s, like, you want to know what network that let’s talk about facebook, okay, so wide open, okay, yeah, i mean, that’s, the network where people are really sharing about their family, their pictures wait, no, this so what? What do we do with what do we do if we find something that we believe is compromising, like let’s, say, a divorce that that maybe they don’t want the organization to know, but maybe that’s? Just what that’s, just one example, but compromising, but valuable to the organization. How do we deal with that? Again, i think go backto original statement if it’s going to if it’s going to jeopardize your relationship with that donor or that donor prospect, i think you leave it out of the conversations, you leave it out of the c r, m u leave it off of written reports, so if you could just sort of have that is your bellweather, i think it will serve you well, okay, okay, and also you’re your organization might have social media guidelines in place, so check that out first as as your you know, you may have certain guidelines that you, as an organization have decided upon. So if that is the case, anybody knew that you’re bringing into the organization should be aware of the social media guidelines both in terms of how they’re going to use social media for are on behalf of the organization, but there may also be, you know, standards of conduct that they’re expecting a view is an employee’s so again, default back to that statement and default back to your own bellwether your instincts if it feels like it’s going to jeopardize that relationship, don’t put the info in there also apra the the professional association for prospect researchers has a statement on ethics, and we’re going to talk about that after the break. So if your organization doesn’t have, you know, you might be a small organization without a social media policy as it relates to prospect research, apra can can help you out. We’ll get to that, okay, i like you’re like you’re like, you’re guideline, all right, we have just a couple minutes before a break, like a minute and a half a minute what’s the next network you want to talk about? Was it twitter waken talk about twitter that one probably won’t take long. You know, twitter is one of those social media platforms that people might be using, especially these days with regard to their politics, so the weather yet, and that might be important for you to know about depending on what type of organization that you are. So, again, if if knowing someone’s politics is important, you know, maybe checking out to see if they’ve got a twitter feed might be something you want to check out. Okay? Seems like you, twitter, you’re less likely to find something compromising it’s possible, but less likely to find. Something compromising on it. Okay, let’s, take a break. When we come back. I got, of course, i got live. Listen. Love podcast, pleasantries and affiliate affections, naturally, but also will get into the apra ethics ethics statement little about that, and we’ll see what else we had to stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m dana ostomel, ceo of deposit, a gift. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back and i feel like starting with the with the shoutouts, teo, to our listeners, i’m going to start with facebook, but i don’t because it’s a fairly new formats only second time have dahna facebook live, so thank you, everybody on facebook! I believe i have shouted out everybody who joined us. Thank you for being there. Can i ask you to do? Ah one or two things like it and share it like it and share it. I think we know how to do that. I’d be grateful on facebook. Thank you very much. Live listen, love, we’ve got two in germany, guten dog, multiple. So multiple germany and seoul, seoul, south korea, always checking in so soul you’ve been on our minds, obviously a lot on your haserot comes a ham nida coming back into the u s, tampa, florida woodbridge, new jersey, matthews, north carolina and staten island and new york, new york, multiple new york city. Thank you. Multiple manhattan, new york appreciate that staten island. Thank you for being with us. Love it only to burroughs i don’t know. Queens, brooklyn, bronx. All right. Next time we have had a show way had a couple shows. Where was all five boroughs? And then, of course, the podcast pleasantries over twelve thousand listeners. Listen, that’s, why? You know, i don’t know if you put two and two together. It takes me over seven years to do that. But that’s, why? We have such loyal sponsors because there are over twelve thousand people listening to the podcast. So you know how grateful i am because it makes the show so much more fulfilling when there are sponsors, you know, helping me out. Basically mean that how else can i say it? So thank you for listening. You are attracting the sponsors to the show, and i do mean attracting the ones i announced it on the three fiftieth coming up. Wagner, cpas, that’s the only definite one. And i said there may be another one and there may still talking them, but they’re coming to me. So thank you, that’s over twelve thousand podcast listeners each week pleasantries to you and the affiliate affections to our am and fm station listeners through out the country. I’m not sure where you are, but what am i saying? I know exactly where you are and i even know when each station puts me in their schedule. Us, i prefer the us, puts us in their schedule, someone our block during the week, and i’m glad that on on your station, it could be saturday morning might be tuesday night, whenever affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners. Thank you for being with us, thanks to your stations for carrying non-profit radio multi-channel amy’s have award will love that were multi-channel we’ve been for years, and now we get into channel, i’ve discovered facebook only took me seven years, cutting edge, cutting edge what we call a pioneer. Yeah, right. Um okay. So, maria simple. Thank you for being patient again. The patient prospect. Researcher. Thank you. A lot of gabbing today. I’m off on tangents. All right? I feel like a facebook pioneer. I know. I know you’re not giving yourself enough credit. You’ve. You’ve been on facebook for a long time, it’s. Just that you’ve not been using this brand spanking new life from large. Yeah, mother it’s quite brand spanking new, but thank you. Thank you for you. That’s the point. Thank you for driving home that point and character chicken master just joined karen. Welcome on facebook. Good to see you. Thanks for being here. Okay, so we’re talking about the ethics of prospect research. Oh, my god. There’s tons more. How come they don’t show up on my phone? Because why? Oh, they’re in a group. That shit. Oh, my god. There’s! Hundreds. Well, dozens more scores, more than dozens scores more. Uh, okay, i don’t think i should do all those. But thank you. If you’re on facebook and i did not shut you out from from beth granger toe. Harriet steinberg to melinda roth. Epstein to eric mendelson. Thank you for being with us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay, so i maria i’m all right. So where do we go from here? Let’s talk about the apra s o apra aperribay pr. It started out as the american prospect research association. Then it became the association of professional researchers for advancement. Now, it’s just apra. So they’ve done to me that’s an abandonment of roots. They’re just apurate. Apurate. Apurate doesn’t mean anything to me probono actually ready haserot along they’ve been after all along i know what stood for different things. It’s i don’t know. I object to this rewrite of history like next it’s going to be we’re gonna be taking down statues of george washington and thomas jefferson in-kind i was around, i was around when they made that shift. And this this is the reason for it. They used to be just the american prospect research association. But now the association really envelope people from all parts of the world. So they wanted to be able to, you know, have that reflective of their their membership base. So now it’s, the association of professional researchers it’s like aarp. They don’t want to be the association. Of retired american association of retired persons anymore haven’t been for years. It’s history rewrite. I don’t mind change, but when it benefits me but it never does that’s why the world has to change without my consent i don’t know what this is, what i don’t i don’t grasp all right, let’s talk about their code of ethics anyway, so they have this ethical code and it does relate to social media specifically so right. So one thing i see is a balance for trying to balance the individual’s right to privacy with the needs of the institution that i like doing that. Yes, he did. And really, it is. It is very, very important that that that balance is capped for sure. Okay, yes. So drilling down on that. What about friends? They have they talk about. Should you be a friend to potential donors? People, you’re researching that’s a no, no. Right on. Yes. In terms of the essex statement that apple put forth that that that is correct, they would really recommend that you do not friend were really enter into a personal relationship with prospects or donors. Now lincoln could be, you know, a completely different platform, right? Because now we’re talking about a business social platform. Okay, right? All right, so but no friend. What about what? This seems like middle ground. What about following somebody on twitter? If you’re a prospect researcher, yeah, i mean, i think that that would be okay to be a follower on twitter because, you know, they’re again twitter feeds are very public, and so, you know, i don’t think there’ll be any issue. They’re okay, but you need to disclose who you are, that’s also in the statement in these guidelines, you need to disclose that you’re a prospect researcher for the organization. Do you need to say that? Um, well, you know, sometimes people will individually have ah, personal twitter account so that i feel the only twitter account that you’re following people from them, then you know, that is it, you know? So i think you have to start looking at your staff and determining, you know which staff members are on twitter hour? Is that the organization that it’s going to be a follower of that individual on twitter and again? It’s two very different to two very different things. Okay, okay, what about corroboration if you find something on a social network, is there an obligation as a prospect researcher to corroborate it from us from another source, or, like almost like a journalist or no? Yeah, if you can, absolutely ah again, is it personal versus business information? That’s going to probably make a difference in terms of what you’re going to try and source in terms of corroboration. But if you know you are, i’m thinking about having somebody make a major gift to your organization and you stumble across something on social media that gives you an indication that this might not be the right time to make that because you might have seen something going on on somebody’s personal facebook feed. You might just double check with you, noah boardmember that knows them well or something like that and just ask, you know, if they know anything about the timing is still a good time to talk to that individual. Okay, maria simple. We gotta leave it there. You’ll find the apra social media ethics statement at apra home dot or ge a after home dot org’s maria sample. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Absolutely. You’ll find her at the prospect finder and she’s at maria simple. You should be following her on twitter. If you’re not latto it’s your life, okay, next week, talking about risk your institutional funders. That’s going to very interesting. Plus, amy sample ward returns, and you gotta let me know what we’re doing. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. Responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled and by re be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we b e spelling dot com, more sponsors to come, our creative producers playing meyerhoff sam labor, which is the line user, shows social media, is by susan chavez, and this very cool music is by scott stein of brooklyn. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for January 14, 2011: The Doug White Ethics Hour

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Compliance. Board relations. Fundraising. Technology. Volunteer management. Accounting. Finance. Marketing. Social media. Investments.

Every nonprofit faces these issues and big nonprofits have experts in each. Small and mid-size nonprofits have Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts throughout the country join Tony to take on the tough issues facing your organization.

Episode 22 of Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio for January 14, 2011

Tony’s Guest:

Doug White is an award-winning author and is the Academic Director and Clinical Assistant Professor at NYU’s George H. Heyman, Jr. Center for Philanthropy and Fundraising.

Topic: The Doug White Ethics Hour – Professor White is the author of “The Nonprofit Challenge: Integrating Ethics Into the Purpose and Promise of Our Nation’s Charities.”  He joins Tony live to talk about ethics and the role of nonprofits in our culture.

Here is the link to the podcast: 024: Ethics with Doug White

When and where: Talking Alternative Radio, Friday, 1-2pm Eastern.

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Dahna welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent? Do you feel that your non-profit is left out of the media out of conversations with consultants? You have a home here at tony martignetti non-profit radio, maybe call. Last week, we had the bank of america merrill lynch high net worth study, and my guest was the bank’s study expert claire costello, also last week, enviable e newsletters with the newsletter editor and our show’s technology contributor, scott kegel er, that was last week this week, it’s ethics our i’m really excited, very pleased. My guest is doug white, and doug is the author of the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities that’s available at amazon dot com doug is with me live in the studio to talk about ethics and the role and the potential of non-profits in our culture on tony’s take two at thirty two minutes after the hour, i’m going to talk about sexism in the workplace based on my most recent blawg post and also give you ah, on ira e-giving reminder, there is an opportunity for two thousand ten remaining. For the rest of this month, we’ll talk about that on tony’s. Take two. After this break, i’ll be joined by professor doug white, and we’re going to be talking about ethics. Stay with us, co-branding think dick tooting getting ding, ding, ding, ding. Duitz you’re listening to the talking, alternate network, get in. Nothing. You could. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio my guest this hour is doug white. Doug is the academic director of new york university’s heimans center for philanthropy and fund-raising, where he also teaches ethics based fund-raising and board governance he’s, also a senior governance consultant for board source. His other books are charity on trial, published by barricade books and the art of planned giving published by wiley. And i’m very pleased that his most recent book, the non-profit challenge, brings him to the studio today. Doug welcome. Thank you, it’s good to be here. The purpose and promise of non-profits our nations, charities. What was the purpose of your book? Maybe it’s a stunning preface, but i’d like to say that i think the charities have the most promise in terms of acting well in our society. They also have the most promise in terms of leading society. At the same time, i think there are a lot of ethical issues and organizational issues, board issues and so forth that impair charitable organizations when they are trying to do the right thing, but oftentimes don’t so they have a large mandate, i think, and this is just my own. Personal feelings that charities are the ethical sector of society, charities were designed primarily and pretty much solely to do good mor so then government or business, the other two sectors now, that doesn’t mean they’re not ethical. That doesn’t mean they’re not good, but we wouldn’t be around if it weren’t for that goodness component, and we really need to take that more seriously than we do let’s start with a common understanding of ethics. What? What is your definition of ethics? Well, it’s, funny, you ask that question because i’m asked that all the time in my classes, and i have to take pains because a lot of the times when i talk about ethics, people will want to sit in the back of the room and they think they’re going to get yelled at because they’re not ethical or they’re not making the right decisions or they’re just not good people and that’s really not how i look at ethics, ethics is really a process, not a result. If tony, you and i can actually say to each other that two men or two people can disagree to good, people can disagree, and we can’t really mean that because we get angry with each other, if we disagree, then we’re really not giving that any credence. What we really need to do is understand each other’s values the process by which we come to an understanding, and if the purpose of ethics were to find agreement, we would have no success whatsoever. The purpose behind ethics is the decision making process it for me anyway, the decision making process that goes into an exploration of our values and waiting those values and so forth, and then coming up with a reason. And i would call it an ethical decision that may be different from yours. After having gone through that same process, i would have to respect that, and you’d have to respect my process and that’s part of that’s an an essential part of the ethical making ethical decision making process respect. And you say in the book that ethics permeates everything. I i stand by that, yes, it permeates everything now doesn’t permeate what you’re gonna have for dinner tonight. That kind of ah decision no s ow when i say everything, i mean everything important, but anything of significance oftentimes involves values, anything that involves values might be bringing up issues that were going to make us defer, and in the process of that, we’re gonna have a problem if we dont have respect, if we don’t look at it as an ethical decision making process and but even in what i do choose to have for dinner or how i feed myself generally, there can very well be value based ethical based decision making in that as part of my my thought process, right? Thank you. You’re so right about that. I was thinking of it, more of let’s say a spouse and husband and wife are going to decide what to have for dinner. That doesn’t matter to anybody else, but what you’re actually pointing out here is that it doesn’t matter if you’re thinking of being if you don’t like meat or something like that on ah larger ethical basis, absolutely it could very well have an impact on that decision again. The subtitle to your book you know the purpose and promise of our nations charities do you think that we have just a minute, a half or so before break? Do you think our nation’s non-profits have lost the public trust. Um, i don’t think they’ve lost it. I think that the public trust is ah, very strong commodity in our country, and we’re very fortunate to have that trust. I think there are people in the united states who are becoming more, they’re becoming more interested in the way charity’s operate. And because charity’s air having showing so much more force in society, the questions are more important than their more more, they’re louder. And so, my my concern is that charities they haven’t so much lost, the trust of the public is they need to. I think i have a better understanding of what that trust means and to respond to it, and the questions being asked are deeper and more insightful. Absolutely, yes, we’re going to take a break. My guest is professor doug white, author of the non-profit challenge. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with me, talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed, i and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. I really need to take better care of myself. If only i had someone to help me with my lifestyle. I feel like giving up. Is this you mind over matter, health and fitness can help. If you’re expecting an epiphany, chances are it’s not happening. Mind over matter, health and fitness could help you get back on track or start a new life and fitness. Join Joshua margolis, fitness expert at 2 one two eight six five nine to nine xero. Or visit w w w dot mind over matter. N y c dot com you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Geever welcome back to the show, of course. My guest, professor doug white, author of the non-profit challenge. Integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities don’t ask about the tv show the philanthropist. You talk about a little in the book. Why do you think that failed so stunningly? Well, it certainly had nothing to do with philanthropy that’s, for sure, i think it failed because it was so shallow, and this is one of the problems when we talk about philanthropy and certainly with ethics, is that there’s a way of telling a story and then there’s a way of being in the moment of the actual job, and sometimes when you tell the story and then it goes through several rewrites and several editors network, a major network like nbc, you’re going to lose a lot of the you’re going to lose a lot of the effort. So my feeling is that if you ask, it just became a shallow piece of nothingness. Yeah, i didn’t see much philanthropy in the in the siri’s no, there wasn’t, and this is one of the problems with the mass media. There is such a delusion of the important aspects of things in every area, and this is certainly true in philanthropy to and certainly an ethics that when you get so diluted there’s, no story left except for the one bank stuff that the producers think will be interesting what’s your sense of of why people give to our non-profit sector either time or money or or their talent, i really do think there’s a sense of giving to help other people. I really do believe that some people call that altruism. If you look at the definition of altruism in the dictionary, it couldn’t be because altruism says you cannot have any personal benefit back. And i think a good feeling from having done what you have done is a benefits. So i think in a way, there’s, no way we can be truly altruistic. But i do believe we as humans haven’t have ah, a way to think about other people and their tragedies. Three weeks ago, i would have mentioned haiti as one of the examples. Today i can talk about tucson and the outpouring of of of this indescribable feeling of wanting to reach out and make the world a better place for the people who are suffering. I think that’s a big part of it. I think that’s the major part of some people, will say that taxes play a large rule. I’ve talked to enough accountants and attorneys. You might get that impression, but you mentioned a high net worth study, they think. Exactly the tax tax motivations always low, always low, even among the people. For whom it’s most important it’s still not that important. So there i think that it is that and i don’t think it’s an american characteristic, a lot of people say, isn’t the united states the most generous country in the world and that’s true, because we give a lot of money and so forth. But i don’t think that it’s ah it’s bounded by national borders. I feel like there are people around the world that we don’t have a monopoly on that feeling of what i would call altruism for the moment here s so i think that’s the primary reason people are our philanthropic there are others but i think that’s the primary well, you mentioned the two sound shooting and there was a chronicle of philanthropy opinion piece this past week by diana aviv. Yes, on dh she heard a thesis is that the nonprofit sector has a role to play in sort of healing and, well, maybe not so much in healing. That’s not right in civil discourse in creating a civil discourse, i think that’s really what she was getting at. Do you think there’s ah role there for charities? I think there is no other place for that role then in charities, i think diana of eve was on target. I get to that issue myself at the end of the book, the non-profit challenge by talking about the sectors. And where do we look for this kind of discourse? Because this kind of discourse is the backbone of ethical decision making. It’s the backbone of acting good and dinah aviv is correct. If she had a book length article, i think she would have gotten into some of the details. One of the problems is, is we talk about those in highfalutin terms that we have this ability to do this. We we want to be change makers. There’s ah, a lot of evil in the world and so forth. My concern with that is not so much that we don’t recognize that as a general idea. But how do we get it specific? How do we make that happen? And that article didn’t go there. I’m not saying it should have, but we need to go there’s charities and ask those tough questions because she’s right, the non-profit sector has a tremendous role, a tremendous responsibility. Do you think we’re going to get it from business? I don’t think so, and that isn’t to put down business, but that’s not where we’re going to get that answer is not their role and the government. I mean, i’m not really a big fan of government regulation because it’s always this great big hammer and we’re trying to get a fly dun and the regulations usually don’t do the job. So how is that gonna happen? It’s gonna happen in the ethical decision making process? This is gonna happen in what i call the ethical sector, the non-profit sector on that part on that point, i would say diane is right on target, and we’re going to get teo your four pillars of ethical, the ethical process? Yes, we’re going to get to that. What about the, you know, also very timely in the news, the buffet gates challenge to their to their fellow very ultra high net worth people americans mostly not exclusively, mostly the sort of a backlash that that that creates aa concentration of national priorities in the hands off roughly forty families and mostly in the u s do you do? Do you feel that kind of concentration? Do you? Do you think much of that? That backlash argument? Well, it’s interesting, you ask that question? Because right after Mark zuckerberg became the 57 that was interviewed on that point and that question was asked, and i wish i had with me the quote, because i put this up from time to time when i’m doing my talking, lee, then ask who says this, but basically, is that what you’ve just said? We have to be ah aware of those organizations or people who would usurp government activity, and this is george washington in his farewell address spoke to that very issue because what’s going on right now on guy think that bill gates and warren buffet and other philanthropists are wonderful people and they’re doing wonderful things, but a lot of the question comes from who are they to make the decision? Who are they to say, for example, that charter schools are the best way to go? They may be, i’m not making that argument one way or the other, but your question is were really relying on these people of wealth to make. National decisions and as a result of that, this past year, this growing issue i’ve developed a course at n y u for the masters that i’m teaching next year on public policy and philanthropy and how they intersect because that question is philosophical to the core, and it concerns me a great deal that there’s a lot of wealth concentrated in just a few people, and those people will have an inordinate amount of sway when it comes to public policy. But they have altruism at their roots, don’t they? They do. Did i say this was a black and white question? You’re absolutely correct, tony. They have altruism at their roots and they want to do good for society. They want to do well, they want to do good weaken talk about that distinction in philanthropy, but but this is the issue when it comes to philanthropy in general it’s not all black and white. I’m with doug white, and doug is a professor at the gnu heimans center, also the author of the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations charities don’t you talk some about some stunning disasters that charities have? Suffered the madoff scheme, the smithsonian institution, stevens institute of technology, emory university, the national heritage foundation. What what can we take away from these crises? Well, the first thing i want to just mention is that it’s important to be specific it’s important to be riel a lot of times when we’re going to conferences, as we were talking before the show began, we talk about charity, eh? Or donorsearch being or this guy or that guy, we don’t get specific and a lot of the times what we what we don’t get as a result of that are the real issues that make the problem. And so in my books, i’ve been very clear about wanting to say, ok, the red cross you did bad smithsonian, you did bad you shiva, which is the made off example that i used you should have done this not because these people are bad or these places are bad, but we need the reality is of things because every other organization is itself a real place and things can go wrong. What we need to take out of this process is that a first of all it’s not going to be under the rug any longer. The public is too interested in this. The media are too interested in this, and they’re going to follow this kind. Of a thing up, and if they don’t, i will, you will in the world is just a different place from what it was five, ten years ago. Now, on top of that, what charity’s need to take away from this is that they need to step up to the plate and be riel they can’t hide the fact that their investment share is also the person where the who’s getting the money to invest and taking a fee from that they can’t hide, that they’re going to dip into their endowment as opposed a cz against what their donors wanted to have happen. That is no longer something that’s going to happen behind closed doors and that’s i think what charities they need to see that sunlight and you don’t you don’t think they have these issues top of mind and their processes, they’re not accommodating that sunlight. I do not think they do right now, a lot of them, not all of them, a lot of them. Yeah, we’re generalizing. I don’t mean to put you on spot say, although the entire charitable sector that doesn’t, nothing applies to everything within a within a community you do see? Ah, good number of a good percentage of the charitable sector. Not answering the call to this sunlight. That’s? Correct? Yeah, i think. And that’s that’s the issue for me. Because of all of the organizations in the united states in the all three sectors, charities ought to be the most comedy tow that you hold your charities to quite a high standard effect, the highest of the three absolute sectors of our economy. Yes, i do. And it represents sort of what? Roughly what percentage of our gross gross national product of gross domestic product? I’m not sure which i think they changed it. The gross domestic product is a while back, so i’ll go with that. And i again think it’s somewhere between it’s fairly large ten to twelve percent. Well, no one really knows. I think maybe you do, but i think it’s somewhere on ten to twelve or maybe fifteen percent of our gross domestic product, which is not a small amount of change now, considerably. No, i think that product is roughly fifteen trillion dollars. Okay, roughly a trillion and a half dollars. Yeah. You you talk about the four pillars of ethics and i want to start toe, get into sort of the substance of the ethics process that you’re you’re advocating? Really? Why don’t you want to tell the audience? What are those four pillars? Well, wait, talk about these words have been known to go we’re talking about how we say phrases and they’re kind of airy and we don’t get down to the details of them. The phrase you had it a minute ago that you’re going to show me the out of the book the phrase for example, transparency, you know, just take a look at that the phrase transfer their word transparency, the word are the phrased disclosure, disclosure, conflict of interest, those air all words that we use nowadays they’re buzzwords we talk about them say, well, we we are we want to be more we want tohave disclosure, we want to be sure we don’t have a conflict of interest, we want to be transparent, and then everybody dances around that. But what does that mean? And so not only are they what i think are the four pillars of of ethics because they asked the charity’s themselves to do the work to get the word out. To get the honesty out to get the ability for anybody else to find out that honesty, i talked to a charity in washington, d c an awful charity who felt that it was doing everything it should because it files nine nineties, as if they should be rewarded for following the law and that’s just the wrong standard to use, especially for a chortle that’s just getting by. That’s just getting by, you know, that’s not anything to brag about, but what we’re so that being understood, what is that level? Where do we go, how do we become transparent? What does that mean? What do we tell people? How do we let them know what that is? Well, today, it’s, easier than ever. We have websites. Why don’t people have their own nine nineties on their websites? Why do they not only not have them, but if they did, why would they only go back three years? Oh, well, that’s, because we’re required to only go back three years. That’s, not the answer. We’re going tow. We’re going to take a break, and when i return, of course, doug white will stay with us, actually, right after the break, it’s ah, tony’s take to doug white is going to stay with us. We’re going to talk in detail about the four pillars of ethics on the fourth one that didn’t, but doug doug did not mention yet is oversight. We’ll talk in detail about those and get into that process of ethical decision making. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing efforts. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile marketing. Their motto is. We do whatever it takes to make our clients happy contact them today. Admission one one media dot com hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent time for tony’s take two on today’s show. First thing i’d like to spend a moment with is workplace sexism. I blogged about this in november, and then again just about two weeks ago or so, confirming what i had asked in november, which was, does sexism still exist in the workplace? And i was embarrassed to say in the in the second post, just two weeks ago that i didn’t realize yes, it does. I shouldn’t have even bothered in november asking the question i should have just gone right to the declarative and said sexism does exist in the workplace and the comments that i’m getting on that the most recent post just ten days or two weeks ago some very poignant stories, so suggesting it’s something you might want to take a look at management and boards just ignoring federal law that prevents is supposed to be preventing ah, create sanctions for sex discrimination organization policies being ignored and even to the point of one woman telling story about her daughter, who is a professional fundraiser who ended up quitting her. Job because she was being set up on dates with donors, sons, those comments and all the other stories that are attached to that post you’ll find on my block at m p g a d v dot com in the name of the post is sexism confirmed also want to share with you last minute e-giving opportunity for i r a gift. So under the tax relief act, which president obama signed just a couple of weeks ago, there is a provisioned for donors to make two thousand ten ira gif ts this month on ly the month of january and what you might do is look to donors who have multiyear pledges who may want to accelerate those pledges, and they could do that in the month of january by making a gift that counts toward there mandatory required distribution of their ira counts toward two thousand ten, and then again this year, they could make another gift, which counts there toward their two thousand eleven mandatory required distribution. So if you have those donors who maybe are willing to help you with a two thousand ten shortfall in your fund-raising or as i said, maybe they have multiyear pledges and they’d like to accelerate those pledge payments. Those would be good prospects to talk to you for this opportunity it expires at the end of this month the counting the gift for the two thousand ten is on ly good for the month of january, then for all the rest of two thousand eleven, the ira possibility remains, but it would only be for two thousand eleven minimum required distributions, and you’ll see that block post that’s called gift possibility remains for two thousand ten ira rollovers and that’s also on my block at mpg a d v dot com i’m with doug white, doug white is with us, and we’re talking about his book the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations charities, you’ll find his book as well as his other two at amazon dot com and right before the break, doug, we were just talking about your four pillars of ethics just wanted just quickly name them, and we’re going, we’re going toe talk about them in a little detail, but if you just name the four pillars, okay, we have, i think, disclosure and transparency, which are quite close to another and we have a conflict of interest, and the fourth one is oversight on dh those for all our very subjective terms. They don’t have black and white ideas, but i love that you call them pillars. Killers are not mushy, subjective relative things there’s are typically granted or concrete and their towering that’s kind of what you call them pillars. I think you’re absolutely correct and looking at that because i feel that they are the pillars, without which charity will crumble. Would you mind reading this paragraph from doug’s goingto read one paragraph from page one fifty three of his books book, talking about these pillars. Four concepts form the backbone of ethics that non-profit organizations the one we just discussed, actually, charities would do well to structure all of their activities around these practices. Every decision should begin by searching for a fidelity to those words. The people making decisions should ask themselves whether they would do the same thing if they knew their actions would be disclosed to the public to ignore the growing level of interest the public and the regulators have in charities or worse to fight them is a loser. Idea. Akin to automobile manufacture. Emperors fighting the requirement to install air bags in all cars. Doug, how do we ensure fidelity to those four pillars? We don’t we can only hope we can only strive, and in order for that to happen, we have to have a humility about who we are and what we’re trying to accomplish. I can look at examples very small, for example is the smithsonian institution who did not bring that kind of humility to his job at the smithsonian. Now you’re not going to hear a lot of people say that because i love the smithsonian and we don’t liketo talk that way about our own, but until we do, i think we need to be honest and until we are that we’re goingto allow people to not be human humble, to not be honest with themselves, and then we won’t be able to accomplish this objective. I’m not sure we’ll ever accomplish it because it is it’s a high standard, but i think we need to have people who know that the non-profit sectors different from business and government is not business light it’s not like another way of doing business non-profits have a special place in society. They have a special place in our hearts, they have a special place in history, you know what i mean? By history’s going back thousands of years durney the idea that we don’t have an extra moral purpose as humans when we run these organizations which are designed solely to help society in a way that neither business nor government can do. The idea is so profound that we need to call upon the best of who we are as human beings. And part of that is an examination would be those four pillars. And in order for those toe really stand as pillars, we have to take them seriously. We have to examine them. We have to examine them in terms of the in the context of the organizations that were running as as well as who we are, ours leaders off those organizations and nothing can be taken for granted. One of the issues with with ethics in the decision making process is not to put yourself into a different place from everyone else. This is what bill aramony did at the united way and that’s why everything went downhill during the late eighties and early nineties. Now the united way of america. Back then, it was the united way of america is a wonderful organization, but he decided he was better than anyone else in the organization. He decided that it would be that the organization would do certain things, and he decided how some money would be run and that’s not the way to do it. So we need fewer bill aramony’s, despite how wonderful a job he did until that time to bring the organization to a very high place. We can’t have the larry smalls of the world running charities. Larry smalls, please tell us at the smithsonian, i’m sorry, the smithsonian, we can’t have that not because he’s a bad guy, he’s a good guy, but he didn’t get the non-profit ethos lost his humility. He lost his humility here. He didn’t have it one of the other. The point is we can’t say it’s, okay for me if it’s not okay for you that’s part of the ethical decision making process and charities have to embrace that they have to embrace that wholeheartedly. That’s another part of what i love about the quote that i asked you to read, which is, would you do the same thing if you knew that everybody was looking at you? Absolutely. And now some people ask that question and ethics and say, well, you have to be aware of what the new york times might say on its front page tomorrow. Well, you do, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you wouldn’t do it. Question is, can you defend it? Can you honestly say that this was the right thing? You know, the newspaper might get it wrong. The general feeling of the public might be wrong. You would have to stand by your values, but you can’t do it by just saying i’m right and you’re wrong. See a lot of people i know in this town anyway, okay? And then why you think that bush should not have gone to war with iraq? Ok? They think they should not have gone to war with iraq. I say, look, let’s agree with that. But if bush president bush had done one thing, he would have been a lot better off if he had been honest about why we had gone to iraq. He could have said, i know there aren’t any weapons of mass destruction, but i feel that saddam hussein’s a really bad guy and we got to get rid of a lot of people. Would have disagreed with him. That’s okay, but at least he would have been honest. And he would have said, these are my values. These are the values i think the united states ought to bring into this process. That’s what we need tohave we can’t always go around saying, oh, i hope i do something that everybody will agree with, and if i don’t, i’m just not going to tell anybody and hope that nobody understands. We’ve got to be clear about being honest about what we do. An example you you spend some pages on in the book is the metropolitan museum of art, whether they should i have put our scent art to las vegas on loan to the bellagio. So now he’s world class art museum talking about world class art in one of the richest places in the world. Las vegas why don’t you take the story from there? Actually, that was the boston museum. It was boston museum in new york. Centric course. Everything happens in new york. I’m surprised supplies las vegas is not new york. Ok, sorry. But i used that example not to say anything bad about the organization, but to show the challenges that come up in governance, and this is part of oversight and part of what governance ought to be at boards source. They teach clients about governance as leadership and all of the questions that come up. But let’s say you run an organization like the metropolitan well, you can use that they have wonderful pieces of our it could’ve taken out to las vegas, this den of iniquity, this is this is culture. We can’t have that we can’t be lending our name into this this place and a lot of places would let it go at that. But then this museum up in boston said, well, what are the pros and cons? What are our values and what that might be g would it be better for more people to see this art? Would that be a good thing? And the answer to that question is yes would be associated with las vegas. We a bad thing? I mean, this is boston after becoming like, my goodness, that would be a terrible thing. See away the right versus the right. Rushworth kidder, one of my heroes when it comes to ethical decision making, who runs? In a non-profit in maine talks about right versus right all the time because if we’re talking ethical decision making, we’re talking about ethical dilemmas. We’re not talking about the obvious right versus the obvious wrong. We’re talking about a dilemma right versus right? And in that particular example, there were two rights. One is we’re going to have a problem with our image, the second oneness, and confronts it in conflicts with it. And that is the idea that more people will be able to see our our work, and they ended up doing the deal they did, and they took some criticism for it. They did, but you looked at their process and and it’s outcome the process was key and to try to avoid criticism, it’s a loser’s game and it’s not even it’s, not even a worthwhile goal. Who would want to live in a world where everybody agrees all the time it would take away ah chunk of our humanity that i don’t think we’d be a world a tte leased the one that i would recognize without it. So forget the idea that we’re always going to agree, in fact, when i go into a room and i learned this when i worked in politics in the early seventies, the fellow said. Well, i could go into the room full of people who agree with me, and i could go into a room full of people who disagree with me, which where should i go? I said, we’ll go with it where they love you, he said, no, i go into the room that they disagree with me because that can change their minds. I can talk to them. I can hear what they have to say, and i’ve never forgotten that that’s part of the idea here, i want to get into your the process that you recommend that you advocate but let’s talk so a little in leading up to that more the detail of the four pillars you said disclosure and transparency very close, but you do make a distinction in the book. Why don’t you make that first? Well, i think that disclosure is the ability for people for a charity to teo wth the idea of a charity allowing people to see the what’s going on. We have to disclose things, aunt, i’ll come back to that in a second, with an example, transparency from my perspective is the ease that we allow the public to see are what we disclose so there’s a distinction there, but the reason i make the distinction is we’re saying those two words all the time as if they were different and they are different, but we never really make that distinction. We’re always talking about it is that it goes away. Let me give you an example of disclosure. I sat on in nineteen ninety five for the dahna philantech protection act, the texas case and we we got this bill passed and a required disclosure with gifts that were planned gifts that we’re co mingled and we’re really happy the sec wanted this for twenty years now is a federal law. A lot of charities didn’t like it, but i was happy, so they said there needs to be disclosure. Great. So the next day, after i had testified to this and after it had gotten past, i called the head of the sec, barry barbash and i said, oh, gosh, we’ve got to ask this question what does disclosure mean? What’s the definition he said that’s up to you, that’s up to you, you have to do that for yourself, and actually the law says reasonable disclosure reasonable, which is even, you know, so, you know, the issue is we are responsible for deciding that and so and it can’t be run by a bunch of lawyers because after that gift annuity disclosure statements were fifty pages long, they were all pretty much filled with legalese. Do you know what barry barbash said when i said, i’m having difficulty with your answer, he said to me, if a seventy five year old person he said, lady, so i’ll just say that who doesn’t understand finances doesn’t understand what you’re telling her in this disclosure. It’s not disclosing anything now i think of that that’s profound it’s not disclosing anything, you could throw a bunch of stuff out, and if it doesn’t tell the person anything it’s not disclosing anything, is it fair to say that you envision you see it transparency as sort of the mindset of openness and then disclosure as the process the practice of disclosing yes, yes, ok, and that mindset, the transparency being reaching out to the public, the donor of the public and saying this is the way we’re going to make it easier for you to understand what we’re doing just in the thirty seconds or so. What we have before a break, let’s, talk about avoidance of conflict of interest. Oh, yes, a third pillar, thirty seconds on that. Well, i i think conflict of interest needs to be disclosed. Okay, bringing those two ideas together. It’s not always going to be avoided, but it should be disclosed, and the issue isn’t so much that it always that it exists. Sometimes we can talk about this later, but that is not disclosed. My guest is doug white he’s, the author of the non-profit challenge. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future. You dream of. Two one to seven to one eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna i really need to take better care of myself. If only i had someone to help me with my lifestyle. I feel like giving up. Is this you mind over matter, health and fitness can help. If you’re expecting an epiphany, chances are it’s not happening. Mind over matter, health and fitness could help you get back on track or start a new life and fitness. Join Joshua margolis, fitness expert at 2 one two eight six five nine to nine xero. Or visit w w w died. Mind over matter. Y si dot com. Do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing efforts. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile marketing. Their motto is. We do whatever it takes to make our clients happy. Contact them today. Admission. Wanna one media dot com? Talking. Metoo welcome back to the show conversation with doug white. We’re talking about ethics and his book the non-profit challenge and doug were at the fourth pillar of of ethics, which is oversight. Don’t you say a little about oversight? Oversight is pretty much the domain off of boards, and i think the board’s oftentimes don’t understand the seriousness of their job. They are the legal backstop oven organization, they are in charge not only of keeping it safe financially and otherwise legally, but also they’re in charge of its leadership. They’re in charge of looking toward its future, they’re in charge of that charity, and so if they don’t have oversight on dhe mentioned earlier with the united way with stevens and with all of these organizations where there have been problems ah lot of that could be traced back to the lack of oversight on the part of the board or the lack of oversight on the part of the senior staff. So the board has tohave a sense of seeing the organization of overseeing its activities. It has to take a seriousness in that approach because they are who they are, they’re they’re the people who are responsible. For this organization they cannot allow, no matter how good, no matter how smart a ceo or us on executive director might be to just work alone without any sense of, uh, answering to the board. So the board has to take that very, very seriously, and that will mean doesn’t matter that they pay, you know, one hundred dollars a supposed one hundred fifty dollars, for ah lunch or something for the staff or whatever. I’m talking about the big picture and people will say, of course, you know, boards are very interesting the big picture there go cardio overseeing what’s going on, but that’s not true look at yeshiva, who lost all of that money and made off the payoff scandal. That is a pretty big picture, but people say, well, i trust this other person who’s on the board or i trust the person who’s investing the money. Nobody looked a trading slips because there weren’t any trading slips that was too much of a detail, so who’s going to look at it? Well, the board should ask about that. Even if you’re not, you don’t have a lot of financial acumen or investing acumen. You should ask that one of the people asked on the harvard boards said, but if we got into all of these alternative strategies, which reduced liquidity, but increase the value of the portfolio and we then got into a situation where we didn’t have that liquidity, where would we get it? Because you know what the students need, that this is what keeps the place going that was asked by someone who wasn’t even part of the investment process, so it takes i think, for the oversight of people who aren’t the expert but who care and that we’re smart and that responsibility is won’t make this explicit, of course, is a legal responsibility that board members have, yes, the under the laws of fiduciary duty, right? I heard that there of the nine million board chair board occupancies in the united states, four and a half million were vacant a couple of years ago because there was so much difficulty getting board members on the charities. My question is, i’m worried about the four and a half that are not vacant, you know, the ones that are filled by people who don’t know what they’re doing don’t just in the few minutes we have left. Let’s, bring these four pillars together into ah, what you advocate is the process of ethical decision making. Yes, there’s. No real blueprint for this because every organization is going to be different and it’s a subjective process. But the question here is, do we know what the big questions that we have to face are, for example, let’s, let’s. Look at investing, for example, the are investment portfolio is x do we want to have? What kind of a mix are we going to become more risky? Do we want to become more conservative? There’s? No right answer within that. But when we get there, when we answer that question based on other values, then we want to make sure that the investment makes is correct. And if we get out of that, we want to know. And so there has to be a process to know. And there has to be a process to ask the question to begin with. So you you know, you walk in there, you say here’s a slate, a blank slate, one of the large questions, and i wouldn’t recommend a charity start. Simple. Take the five largest. Questions they can imagine asking on saying, how are they going to answer it and then go deep and deep, deep down to the details of that process using the ethical decision making process? I’m not going to accept myself because i’m special. I’m going to get a cz much information as i possibly can in the process of making a decision not just the information i want but everything, and then i’m going to make a decision, but i’m going to keep my mind open after that that’s all part of the guideline of making an ethical decision maker of the ethical decision making process. But i would say that charities don’t do this, they do not do this. My guest has been dug white, and he is assistant professor at the and then you new york university heimans center. His book is the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities. You should read this book there’s considerably more detail, of course, that we were able to conserve a kidder. Consider in just an hour, doug. Thank you very much for joining me in the studio. It’s. My pleasure, tony it’s. Been a pleasure having you next week. Savvy strategies to save you from a sexism scene policies you need in place to protect your employees and your non-profit i’m so concerned about sexism in the workplace that we’re going to start devoting cem showtime to it, this will be just one segment. There will be another show in the future devoted to it next week, talking about these strategies to save yourself and your organisation from an embarrassing situation around sexism. My guest will be hr consultant karen bradunas and also next week planned giving newsletters tips to make them punchy and interesting so that your donors actually read them. My guest will be clear meyerhoff she’s, a marketing consultant and also the creative producer to this show, you could get our insider alerts, and i hope you will like us on the facebook page. It’s, of course. Facebook dot com tony martignetti non-profit radio click on the like button. The creative producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is claire meyerhoff, our line producer on the owner of talking alternative broadcasting. Sam liebowitz and our social media is by regina walton of organic social media. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio always. With mid size and small non-profits in mind, of course, the tagline. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I hope you join me next friday for those guests. I just mentioned one p m eastern here on talking alternative, which you always find at talking alternative dot com. E-giving ding, ding, ding, ding. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Duitz are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you. Are you feeling overwhelmed? The current chaos of our changing times, a deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed hi and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l, j media. Dot com you’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking offgrid dot com now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. I really need to take better care of myself if only i had someone to help me with my lifestyle. I feel like giving up dahna is this you mind over matter, health and fitness can help. If you’re expecting an epiphany, chances are it’s not happening. Mind over matter, health and fitness can help you get back on track or start a new life and fitness. Join Joshua margolis, fitness expert at 2 one two eight six five nine to nine xero, or visit w w w died. Mind over matter. Y si dot com. Talking.