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Episode 22 of Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio for January 14, 2011
Doug White is an award-winning author and is the Academic Director and Clinical Assistant Professor at NYU’s George H. Heyman, Jr. Center for Philanthropy and Fundraising.
Topic: The Doug White Ethics Hour – Professor White is the author of “The Nonprofit Challenge: Integrating Ethics Into the Purpose and Promise of Our Nation’s Charities.” He joins Tony live to talk about ethics and the role of nonprofits in our culture.
Here is the link to the podcast: 024: Ethics with Doug White
When and where: Talking Alternative Radio, Friday, 1-2pm Eastern.
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Dahna welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent? Do you feel that your non-profit is left out of the media out of conversations with consultants? You have a home here at tony martignetti non-profit radio, maybe call. Last week, we had the bank of america merrill lynch high net worth study, and my guest was the bank’s study expert claire costello, also last week, enviable e newsletters with the newsletter editor and our show’s technology contributor, scott kegel er, that was last week this week, it’s ethics our i’m really excited, very pleased. My guest is doug white, and doug is the author of the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities that’s available at amazon dot com doug is with me live in the studio to talk about ethics and the role and the potential of non-profits in our culture on tony’s take two at thirty two minutes after the hour, i’m going to talk about sexism in the workplace based on my most recent blawg post and also give you ah, on ira e-giving reminder, there is an opportunity for two thousand ten remaining. For the rest of this month, we’ll talk about that on tony’s. Take two. After this break, i’ll be joined by professor doug white, and we’re going to be talking about ethics. Stay with us, co-branding think dick tooting getting ding, ding, ding, ding. Duitz you’re listening to the talking, alternate network, get in. Nothing. You could. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio my guest this hour is doug white. Doug is the academic director of new york university’s heimans center for philanthropy and fund-raising, where he also teaches ethics based fund-raising and board governance he’s, also a senior governance consultant for board source. His other books are charity on trial, published by barricade books and the art of planned giving published by wiley. And i’m very pleased that his most recent book, the non-profit challenge, brings him to the studio today. Doug welcome. Thank you, it’s good to be here. The purpose and promise of non-profits our nations, charities. What was the purpose of your book? Maybe it’s a stunning preface, but i’d like to say that i think the charities have the most promise in terms of acting well in our society. They also have the most promise in terms of leading society. At the same time, i think there are a lot of ethical issues and organizational issues, board issues and so forth that impair charitable organizations when they are trying to do the right thing, but oftentimes don’t so they have a large mandate, i think, and this is just my own. Personal feelings that charities are the ethical sector of society, charities were designed primarily and pretty much solely to do good mor so then government or business, the other two sectors now, that doesn’t mean they’re not ethical. That doesn’t mean they’re not good, but we wouldn’t be around if it weren’t for that goodness component, and we really need to take that more seriously than we do let’s start with a common understanding of ethics. What? What is your definition of ethics? Well, it’s, funny, you ask that question because i’m asked that all the time in my classes, and i have to take pains because a lot of the times when i talk about ethics, people will want to sit in the back of the room and they think they’re going to get yelled at because they’re not ethical or they’re not making the right decisions or they’re just not good people and that’s really not how i look at ethics, ethics is really a process, not a result. If tony, you and i can actually say to each other that two men or two people can disagree to good, people can disagree, and we can’t really mean that because we get angry with each other, if we disagree, then we’re really not giving that any credence. What we really need to do is understand each other’s values the process by which we come to an understanding, and if the purpose of ethics were to find agreement, we would have no success whatsoever. The purpose behind ethics is the decision making process it for me anyway, the decision making process that goes into an exploration of our values and waiting those values and so forth, and then coming up with a reason. And i would call it an ethical decision that may be different from yours. After having gone through that same process, i would have to respect that, and you’d have to respect my process and that’s part of that’s an an essential part of the ethical making ethical decision making process respect. And you say in the book that ethics permeates everything. I i stand by that, yes, it permeates everything now doesn’t permeate what you’re gonna have for dinner tonight. That kind of ah decision no s ow when i say everything, i mean everything important, but anything of significance oftentimes involves values, anything that involves values might be bringing up issues that were going to make us defer, and in the process of that, we’re gonna have a problem if we dont have respect, if we don’t look at it as an ethical decision making process and but even in what i do choose to have for dinner or how i feed myself generally, there can very well be value based ethical based decision making in that as part of my my thought process, right? Thank you. You’re so right about that. I was thinking of it, more of let’s say a spouse and husband and wife are going to decide what to have for dinner. That doesn’t matter to anybody else, but what you’re actually pointing out here is that it doesn’t matter if you’re thinking of being if you don’t like meat or something like that on ah larger ethical basis, absolutely it could very well have an impact on that decision again. The subtitle to your book you know the purpose and promise of our nations charities do you think that we have just a minute, a half or so before break? Do you think our nation’s non-profits have lost the public trust. Um, i don’t think they’ve lost it. I think that the public trust is ah, very strong commodity in our country, and we’re very fortunate to have that trust. I think there are people in the united states who are becoming more, they’re becoming more interested in the way charity’s operate. And because charity’s air having showing so much more force in society, the questions are more important than their more more, they’re louder. And so, my my concern is that charities they haven’t so much lost, the trust of the public is they need to. I think i have a better understanding of what that trust means and to respond to it, and the questions being asked are deeper and more insightful. Absolutely, yes, we’re going to take a break. My guest is professor doug white, author of the non-profit challenge. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with me, talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed, i and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? 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My guest, professor doug white, author of the non-profit challenge. Integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities don’t ask about the tv show the philanthropist. You talk about a little in the book. Why do you think that failed so stunningly? Well, it certainly had nothing to do with philanthropy that’s, for sure, i think it failed because it was so shallow, and this is one of the problems when we talk about philanthropy and certainly with ethics, is that there’s a way of telling a story and then there’s a way of being in the moment of the actual job, and sometimes when you tell the story and then it goes through several rewrites and several editors network, a major network like nbc, you’re going to lose a lot of the you’re going to lose a lot of the effort. So my feeling is that if you ask, it just became a shallow piece of nothingness. Yeah, i didn’t see much philanthropy in the in the siri’s no, there wasn’t, and this is one of the problems with the mass media. There is such a delusion of the important aspects of things in every area, and this is certainly true in philanthropy to and certainly an ethics that when you get so diluted there’s, no story left except for the one bank stuff that the producers think will be interesting what’s your sense of of why people give to our non-profit sector either time or money or or their talent, i really do think there’s a sense of giving to help other people. I really do believe that some people call that altruism. If you look at the definition of altruism in the dictionary, it couldn’t be because altruism says you cannot have any personal benefit back. And i think a good feeling from having done what you have done is a benefits. So i think in a way, there’s, no way we can be truly altruistic. But i do believe we as humans haven’t have ah, a way to think about other people and their tragedies. Three weeks ago, i would have mentioned haiti as one of the examples. Today i can talk about tucson and the outpouring of of of this indescribable feeling of wanting to reach out and make the world a better place for the people who are suffering. I think that’s a big part of it. I think that’s the major part of some people, will say that taxes play a large rule. I’ve talked to enough accountants and attorneys. You might get that impression, but you mentioned a high net worth study, they think. Exactly the tax tax motivations always low, always low, even among the people. For whom it’s most important it’s still not that important. So there i think that it is that and i don’t think it’s an american characteristic, a lot of people say, isn’t the united states the most generous country in the world and that’s true, because we give a lot of money and so forth. But i don’t think that it’s ah it’s bounded by national borders. I feel like there are people around the world that we don’t have a monopoly on that feeling of what i would call altruism for the moment here s so i think that’s the primary reason people are our philanthropic there are others but i think that’s the primary well, you mentioned the two sound shooting and there was a chronicle of philanthropy opinion piece this past week by diana aviv. Yes, on dh she heard a thesis is that the nonprofit sector has a role to play in sort of healing and, well, maybe not so much in healing. That’s not right in civil discourse in creating a civil discourse, i think that’s really what she was getting at. Do you think there’s ah role there for charities? I think there is no other place for that role then in charities, i think diana of eve was on target. I get to that issue myself at the end of the book, the non-profit challenge by talking about the sectors. And where do we look for this kind of discourse? Because this kind of discourse is the backbone of ethical decision making. It’s the backbone of acting good and dinah aviv is correct. If she had a book length article, i think she would have gotten into some of the details. One of the problems is, is we talk about those in highfalutin terms that we have this ability to do this. We we want to be change makers. There’s ah, a lot of evil in the world and so forth. My concern with that is not so much that we don’t recognize that as a general idea. But how do we get it specific? How do we make that happen? And that article didn’t go there. I’m not saying it should have, but we need to go there’s charities and ask those tough questions because she’s right, the non-profit sector has a tremendous role, a tremendous responsibility. Do you think we’re going to get it from business? I don’t think so, and that isn’t to put down business, but that’s not where we’re going to get that answer is not their role and the government. I mean, i’m not really a big fan of government regulation because it’s always this great big hammer and we’re trying to get a fly dun and the regulations usually don’t do the job. So how is that gonna happen? It’s gonna happen in the ethical decision making process? This is gonna happen in what i call the ethical sector, the non-profit sector on that part on that point, i would say diane is right on target, and we’re going to get teo your four pillars of ethical, the ethical process? Yes, we’re going to get to that. What about the, you know, also very timely in the news, the buffet gates challenge to their to their fellow very ultra high net worth people americans mostly not exclusively, mostly the sort of a backlash that that that creates aa concentration of national priorities in the hands off roughly forty families and mostly in the u s do you do? Do you feel that kind of concentration? Do you? Do you think much of that? That backlash argument? Well, it’s interesting, you ask that question? Because right after Mark zuckerberg became the 57 that was interviewed on that point and that question was asked, and i wish i had with me the quote, because i put this up from time to time when i’m doing my talking, lee, then ask who says this, but basically, is that what you’ve just said? We have to be ah aware of those organizations or people who would usurp government activity, and this is george washington in his farewell address spoke to that very issue because what’s going on right now on guy think that bill gates and warren buffet and other philanthropists are wonderful people and they’re doing wonderful things, but a lot of the question comes from who are they to make the decision? Who are they to say, for example, that charter schools are the best way to go? They may be, i’m not making that argument one way or the other, but your question is were really relying on these people of wealth to make. National decisions and as a result of that, this past year, this growing issue i’ve developed a course at n y u for the masters that i’m teaching next year on public policy and philanthropy and how they intersect because that question is philosophical to the core, and it concerns me a great deal that there’s a lot of wealth concentrated in just a few people, and those people will have an inordinate amount of sway when it comes to public policy. But they have altruism at their roots, don’t they? They do. Did i say this was a black and white question? You’re absolutely correct, tony. They have altruism at their roots and they want to do good for society. They want to do well, they want to do good weaken talk about that distinction in philanthropy, but but this is the issue when it comes to philanthropy in general it’s not all black and white. I’m with doug white, and doug is a professor at the gnu heimans center, also the author of the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations charities don’t you talk some about some stunning disasters that charities have? Suffered the madoff scheme, the smithsonian institution, stevens institute of technology, emory university, the national heritage foundation. What what can we take away from these crises? Well, the first thing i want to just mention is that it’s important to be specific it’s important to be riel a lot of times when we’re going to conferences, as we were talking before the show began, we talk about charity, eh? Or donorsearch being or this guy or that guy, we don’t get specific and a lot of the times what we what we don’t get as a result of that are the real issues that make the problem. And so in my books, i’ve been very clear about wanting to say, ok, the red cross you did bad smithsonian, you did bad you shiva, which is the made off example that i used you should have done this not because these people are bad or these places are bad, but we need the reality is of things because every other organization is itself a real place and things can go wrong. What we need to take out of this process is that a first of all it’s not going to be under the rug any longer. The public is too interested in this. The media are too interested in this, and they’re going to follow this kind. Of a thing up, and if they don’t, i will, you will in the world is just a different place from what it was five, ten years ago. Now, on top of that, what charity’s need to take away from this is that they need to step up to the plate and be riel they can’t hide the fact that their investment share is also the person where the who’s getting the money to invest and taking a fee from that they can’t hide, that they’re going to dip into their endowment as opposed a cz against what their donors wanted to have happen. That is no longer something that’s going to happen behind closed doors and that’s i think what charities they need to see that sunlight and you don’t you don’t think they have these issues top of mind and their processes, they’re not accommodating that sunlight. I do not think they do right now, a lot of them, not all of them, a lot of them. Yeah, we’re generalizing. I don’t mean to put you on spot say, although the entire charitable sector that doesn’t, nothing applies to everything within a within a community you do see? Ah, good number of a good percentage of the charitable sector. Not answering the call to this sunlight. That’s? Correct? Yeah, i think. And that’s that’s the issue for me. Because of all of the organizations in the united states in the all three sectors, charities ought to be the most comedy tow that you hold your charities to quite a high standard effect, the highest of the three absolute sectors of our economy. Yes, i do. And it represents sort of what? Roughly what percentage of our gross gross national product of gross domestic product? I’m not sure which i think they changed it. The gross domestic product is a while back, so i’ll go with that. And i again think it’s somewhere between it’s fairly large ten to twelve percent. Well, no one really knows. I think maybe you do, but i think it’s somewhere on ten to twelve or maybe fifteen percent of our gross domestic product, which is not a small amount of change now, considerably. No, i think that product is roughly fifteen trillion dollars. Okay, roughly a trillion and a half dollars. Yeah. You you talk about the four pillars of ethics and i want to start toe, get into sort of the substance of the ethics process that you’re you’re advocating? Really? Why don’t you want to tell the audience? What are those four pillars? Well, wait, talk about these words have been known to go we’re talking about how we say phrases and they’re kind of airy and we don’t get down to the details of them. The phrase you had it a minute ago that you’re going to show me the out of the book the phrase for example, transparency, you know, just take a look at that the phrase transfer their word transparency, the word are the phrased disclosure, disclosure, conflict of interest, those air all words that we use nowadays they’re buzzwords we talk about them say, well, we we are we want to be more we want tohave disclosure, we want to be sure we don’t have a conflict of interest, we want to be transparent, and then everybody dances around that. But what does that mean? And so not only are they what i think are the four pillars of of ethics because they asked the charity’s themselves to do the work to get the word out. To get the honesty out to get the ability for anybody else to find out that honesty, i talked to a charity in washington, d c an awful charity who felt that it was doing everything it should because it files nine nineties, as if they should be rewarded for following the law and that’s just the wrong standard to use, especially for a chortle that’s just getting by. That’s just getting by, you know, that’s not anything to brag about, but what we’re so that being understood, what is that level? Where do we go, how do we become transparent? What does that mean? What do we tell people? How do we let them know what that is? Well, today, it’s, easier than ever. We have websites. Why don’t people have their own nine nineties on their websites? Why do they not only not have them, but if they did, why would they only go back three years? Oh, well, that’s, because we’re required to only go back three years. That’s, not the answer. We’re going tow. We’re going to take a break, and when i return, of course, doug white will stay with us, actually, right after the break, it’s ah, tony’s take to doug white is going to stay with us. We’re going to talk in detail about the four pillars of ethics on the fourth one that didn’t, but doug doug did not mention yet is oversight. We’ll talk in detail about those and get into that process of ethical decision making. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing efforts. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile marketing. Their motto is. We do whatever it takes to make our clients happy contact them today. Admission one one media dot com hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent time for tony’s take two on today’s show. First thing i’d like to spend a moment with is workplace sexism. I blogged about this in november, and then again just about two weeks ago or so, confirming what i had asked in november, which was, does sexism still exist in the workplace? And i was embarrassed to say in the in the second post, just two weeks ago that i didn’t realize yes, it does. I shouldn’t have even bothered in november asking the question i should have just gone right to the declarative and said sexism does exist in the workplace and the comments that i’m getting on that the most recent post just ten days or two weeks ago some very poignant stories, so suggesting it’s something you might want to take a look at management and boards just ignoring federal law that prevents is supposed to be preventing ah, create sanctions for sex discrimination organization policies being ignored and even to the point of one woman telling story about her daughter, who is a professional fundraiser who ended up quitting her. Job because she was being set up on dates with donors, sons, those comments and all the other stories that are attached to that post you’ll find on my block at m p g a d v dot com in the name of the post is sexism confirmed also want to share with you last minute e-giving opportunity for i r a gift. So under the tax relief act, which president obama signed just a couple of weeks ago, there is a provisioned for donors to make two thousand ten ira gif ts this month on ly the month of january and what you might do is look to donors who have multiyear pledges who may want to accelerate those pledges, and they could do that in the month of january by making a gift that counts toward there mandatory required distribution of their ira counts toward two thousand ten, and then again this year, they could make another gift, which counts there toward their two thousand eleven mandatory required distribution. So if you have those donors who maybe are willing to help you with a two thousand ten shortfall in your fund-raising or as i said, maybe they have multiyear pledges and they’d like to accelerate those pledge payments. Those would be good prospects to talk to you for this opportunity it expires at the end of this month the counting the gift for the two thousand ten is on ly good for the month of january, then for all the rest of two thousand eleven, the ira possibility remains, but it would only be for two thousand eleven minimum required distributions, and you’ll see that block post that’s called gift possibility remains for two thousand ten ira rollovers and that’s also on my block at mpg a d v dot com i’m with doug white, doug white is with us, and we’re talking about his book the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations charities, you’ll find his book as well as his other two at amazon dot com and right before the break, doug, we were just talking about your four pillars of ethics just wanted just quickly name them, and we’re going, we’re going toe talk about them in a little detail, but if you just name the four pillars, okay, we have, i think, disclosure and transparency, which are quite close to another and we have a conflict of interest, and the fourth one is oversight on dh those for all our very subjective terms. They don’t have black and white ideas, but i love that you call them pillars. Killers are not mushy, subjective relative things there’s are typically granted or concrete and their towering that’s kind of what you call them pillars. I think you’re absolutely correct and looking at that because i feel that they are the pillars, without which charity will crumble. Would you mind reading this paragraph from doug’s goingto read one paragraph from page one fifty three of his books book, talking about these pillars. Four concepts form the backbone of ethics that non-profit organizations the one we just discussed, actually, charities would do well to structure all of their activities around these practices. Every decision should begin by searching for a fidelity to those words. The people making decisions should ask themselves whether they would do the same thing if they knew their actions would be disclosed to the public to ignore the growing level of interest the public and the regulators have in charities or worse to fight them is a loser. Idea. Akin to automobile manufacture. Emperors fighting the requirement to install air bags in all cars. Doug, how do we ensure fidelity to those four pillars? We don’t we can only hope we can only strive, and in order for that to happen, we have to have a humility about who we are and what we’re trying to accomplish. I can look at examples very small, for example is the smithsonian institution who did not bring that kind of humility to his job at the smithsonian. Now you’re not going to hear a lot of people say that because i love the smithsonian and we don’t liketo talk that way about our own, but until we do, i think we need to be honest and until we are that we’re goingto allow people to not be human humble, to not be honest with themselves, and then we won’t be able to accomplish this objective. I’m not sure we’ll ever accomplish it because it is it’s a high standard, but i think we need to have people who know that the non-profit sectors different from business and government is not business light it’s not like another way of doing business non-profits have a special place in society. They have a special place in our hearts, they have a special place in history, you know what i mean? By history’s going back thousands of years durney the idea that we don’t have an extra moral purpose as humans when we run these organizations which are designed solely to help society in a way that neither business nor government can do. The idea is so profound that we need to call upon the best of who we are as human beings. And part of that is an examination would be those four pillars. And in order for those toe really stand as pillars, we have to take them seriously. We have to examine them. We have to examine them in terms of the in the context of the organizations that were running as as well as who we are, ours leaders off those organizations and nothing can be taken for granted. One of the issues with with ethics in the decision making process is not to put yourself into a different place from everyone else. This is what bill aramony did at the united way and that’s why everything went downhill during the late eighties and early nineties. Now the united way of america. Back then, it was the united way of america is a wonderful organization, but he decided he was better than anyone else in the organization. He decided that it would be that the organization would do certain things, and he decided how some money would be run and that’s not the way to do it. So we need fewer bill aramony’s, despite how wonderful a job he did until that time to bring the organization to a very high place. We can’t have the larry smalls of the world running charities. Larry smalls, please tell us at the smithsonian, i’m sorry, the smithsonian, we can’t have that not because he’s a bad guy, he’s a good guy, but he didn’t get the non-profit ethos lost his humility. He lost his humility here. He didn’t have it one of the other. The point is we can’t say it’s, okay for me if it’s not okay for you that’s part of the ethical decision making process and charities have to embrace that they have to embrace that wholeheartedly. That’s another part of what i love about the quote that i asked you to read, which is, would you do the same thing if you knew that everybody was looking at you? Absolutely. And now some people ask that question and ethics and say, well, you have to be aware of what the new york times might say on its front page tomorrow. Well, you do, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you wouldn’t do it. Question is, can you defend it? Can you honestly say that this was the right thing? You know, the newspaper might get it wrong. The general feeling of the public might be wrong. You would have to stand by your values, but you can’t do it by just saying i’m right and you’re wrong. See a lot of people i know in this town anyway, okay? And then why you think that bush should not have gone to war with iraq? Ok? They think they should not have gone to war with iraq. I say, look, let’s agree with that. But if bush president bush had done one thing, he would have been a lot better off if he had been honest about why we had gone to iraq. He could have said, i know there aren’t any weapons of mass destruction, but i feel that saddam hussein’s a really bad guy and we got to get rid of a lot of people. Would have disagreed with him. That’s okay, but at least he would have been honest. And he would have said, these are my values. These are the values i think the united states ought to bring into this process. That’s what we need tohave we can’t always go around saying, oh, i hope i do something that everybody will agree with, and if i don’t, i’m just not going to tell anybody and hope that nobody understands. We’ve got to be clear about being honest about what we do. An example you you spend some pages on in the book is the metropolitan museum of art, whether they should i have put our scent art to las vegas on loan to the bellagio. So now he’s world class art museum talking about world class art in one of the richest places in the world. Las vegas why don’t you take the story from there? Actually, that was the boston museum. It was boston museum in new york. Centric course. Everything happens in new york. I’m surprised supplies las vegas is not new york. Ok, sorry. But i used that example not to say anything bad about the organization, but to show the challenges that come up in governance, and this is part of oversight and part of what governance ought to be at boards source. They teach clients about governance as leadership and all of the questions that come up. But let’s say you run an organization like the metropolitan well, you can use that they have wonderful pieces of our it could’ve taken out to las vegas, this den of iniquity, this is this is culture. We can’t have that we can’t be lending our name into this this place and a lot of places would let it go at that. But then this museum up in boston said, well, what are the pros and cons? What are our values and what that might be g would it be better for more people to see this art? Would that be a good thing? And the answer to that question is yes would be associated with las vegas. We a bad thing? I mean, this is boston after becoming like, my goodness, that would be a terrible thing. See away the right versus the right. Rushworth kidder, one of my heroes when it comes to ethical decision making, who runs? In a non-profit in maine talks about right versus right all the time because if we’re talking ethical decision making, we’re talking about ethical dilemmas. We’re not talking about the obvious right versus the obvious wrong. We’re talking about a dilemma right versus right? And in that particular example, there were two rights. One is we’re going to have a problem with our image, the second oneness, and confronts it in conflicts with it. And that is the idea that more people will be able to see our our work, and they ended up doing the deal they did, and they took some criticism for it. They did, but you looked at their process and and it’s outcome the process was key and to try to avoid criticism, it’s a loser’s game and it’s not even it’s, not even a worthwhile goal. Who would want to live in a world where everybody agrees all the time it would take away ah chunk of our humanity that i don’t think we’d be a world a tte leased the one that i would recognize without it. So forget the idea that we’re always going to agree, in fact, when i go into a room and i learned this when i worked in politics in the early seventies, the fellow said. Well, i could go into the room full of people who agree with me, and i could go into a room full of people who disagree with me, which where should i go? I said, we’ll go with it where they love you, he said, no, i go into the room that they disagree with me because that can change their minds. I can talk to them. I can hear what they have to say, and i’ve never forgotten that that’s part of the idea here, i want to get into your the process that you recommend that you advocate but let’s talk so a little in leading up to that more the detail of the four pillars you said disclosure and transparency very close, but you do make a distinction in the book. Why don’t you make that first? Well, i think that disclosure is the ability for people for a charity to teo wth the idea of a charity allowing people to see the what’s going on. We have to disclose things, aunt, i’ll come back to that in a second, with an example, transparency from my perspective is the ease that we allow the public to see are what we disclose so there’s a distinction there, but the reason i make the distinction is we’re saying those two words all the time as if they were different and they are different, but we never really make that distinction. We’re always talking about it is that it goes away. Let me give you an example of disclosure. I sat on in nineteen ninety five for the dahna philantech protection act, the texas case and we we got this bill passed and a required disclosure with gifts that were planned gifts that we’re co mingled and we’re really happy the sec wanted this for twenty years now is a federal law. A lot of charities didn’t like it, but i was happy, so they said there needs to be disclosure. Great. So the next day, after i had testified to this and after it had gotten past, i called the head of the sec, barry barbash and i said, oh, gosh, we’ve got to ask this question what does disclosure mean? What’s the definition he said that’s up to you, that’s up to you, you have to do that for yourself, and actually the law says reasonable disclosure reasonable, which is even, you know, so, you know, the issue is we are responsible for deciding that and so and it can’t be run by a bunch of lawyers because after that gift annuity disclosure statements were fifty pages long, they were all pretty much filled with legalese. Do you know what barry barbash said when i said, i’m having difficulty with your answer, he said to me, if a seventy five year old person he said, lady, so i’ll just say that who doesn’t understand finances doesn’t understand what you’re telling her in this disclosure. It’s not disclosing anything now i think of that that’s profound it’s not disclosing anything, you could throw a bunch of stuff out, and if it doesn’t tell the person anything it’s not disclosing anything, is it fair to say that you envision you see it transparency as sort of the mindset of openness and then disclosure as the process the practice of disclosing yes, yes, ok, and that mindset, the transparency being reaching out to the public, the donor of the public and saying this is the way we’re going to make it easier for you to understand what we’re doing just in the thirty seconds or so. What we have before a break, let’s, talk about avoidance of conflict of interest. Oh, yes, a third pillar, thirty seconds on that. Well, i i think conflict of interest needs to be disclosed. Okay, bringing those two ideas together. It’s not always going to be avoided, but it should be disclosed, and the issue isn’t so much that it always that it exists. Sometimes we can talk about this later, but that is not disclosed. My guest is doug white he’s, the author of the non-profit challenge. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future. You dream of. Two one to seven to one eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna i really need to take better care of myself. If only i had someone to help me with my lifestyle. I feel like giving up. Is this you mind over matter, health and fitness can help. If you’re expecting an epiphany, chances are it’s not happening. Mind over matter, health and fitness could help you get back on track or start a new life and fitness. Join Joshua margolis, fitness expert at 2 one two eight six five nine to nine xero. Or visit w w w died. Mind over matter. Y si dot com. Do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing efforts. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile marketing. Their motto is. We do whatever it takes to make our clients happy. Contact them today. Admission. Wanna one media dot com? Talking. Metoo welcome back to the show conversation with doug white. We’re talking about ethics and his book the non-profit challenge and doug were at the fourth pillar of of ethics, which is oversight. Don’t you say a little about oversight? Oversight is pretty much the domain off of boards, and i think the board’s oftentimes don’t understand the seriousness of their job. They are the legal backstop oven organization, they are in charge not only of keeping it safe financially and otherwise legally, but also they’re in charge of its leadership. They’re in charge of looking toward its future, they’re in charge of that charity, and so if they don’t have oversight on dhe mentioned earlier with the united way with stevens and with all of these organizations where there have been problems ah lot of that could be traced back to the lack of oversight on the part of the board or the lack of oversight on the part of the senior staff. So the board has tohave a sense of seeing the organization of overseeing its activities. It has to take a seriousness in that approach because they are who they are, they’re they’re the people who are responsible. For this organization they cannot allow, no matter how good, no matter how smart a ceo or us on executive director might be to just work alone without any sense of, uh, answering to the board. So the board has to take that very, very seriously, and that will mean doesn’t matter that they pay, you know, one hundred dollars a supposed one hundred fifty dollars, for ah lunch or something for the staff or whatever. I’m talking about the big picture and people will say, of course, you know, boards are very interesting the big picture there go cardio overseeing what’s going on, but that’s not true look at yeshiva, who lost all of that money and made off the payoff scandal. That is a pretty big picture, but people say, well, i trust this other person who’s on the board or i trust the person who’s investing the money. Nobody looked a trading slips because there weren’t any trading slips that was too much of a detail, so who’s going to look at it? Well, the board should ask about that. Even if you’re not, you don’t have a lot of financial acumen or investing acumen. You should ask that one of the people asked on the harvard boards said, but if we got into all of these alternative strategies, which reduced liquidity, but increase the value of the portfolio and we then got into a situation where we didn’t have that liquidity, where would we get it? Because you know what the students need, that this is what keeps the place going that was asked by someone who wasn’t even part of the investment process, so it takes i think, for the oversight of people who aren’t the expert but who care and that we’re smart and that responsibility is won’t make this explicit, of course, is a legal responsibility that board members have, yes, the under the laws of fiduciary duty, right? I heard that there of the nine million board chair board occupancies in the united states, four and a half million were vacant a couple of years ago because there was so much difficulty getting board members on the charities. My question is, i’m worried about the four and a half that are not vacant, you know, the ones that are filled by people who don’t know what they’re doing don’t just in the few minutes we have left. Let’s, bring these four pillars together into ah, what you advocate is the process of ethical decision making. Yes, there’s. No real blueprint for this because every organization is going to be different and it’s a subjective process. But the question here is, do we know what the big questions that we have to face are, for example, let’s, let’s. Look at investing, for example, the are investment portfolio is x do we want to have? What kind of a mix are we going to become more risky? Do we want to become more conservative? There’s? No right answer within that. But when we get there, when we answer that question based on other values, then we want to make sure that the investment makes is correct. And if we get out of that, we want to know. And so there has to be a process to know. And there has to be a process to ask the question to begin with. So you you know, you walk in there, you say here’s a slate, a blank slate, one of the large questions, and i wouldn’t recommend a charity start. Simple. Take the five largest. Questions they can imagine asking on saying, how are they going to answer it and then go deep and deep, deep down to the details of that process using the ethical decision making process? I’m not going to accept myself because i’m special. I’m going to get a cz much information as i possibly can in the process of making a decision not just the information i want but everything, and then i’m going to make a decision, but i’m going to keep my mind open after that that’s all part of the guideline of making an ethical decision maker of the ethical decision making process. But i would say that charities don’t do this, they do not do this. My guest has been dug white, and he is assistant professor at the and then you new york university heimans center. His book is the non-profit challenge integrating ethics into the purpose and promise of our nations. Charities. You should read this book there’s considerably more detail, of course, that we were able to conserve a kidder. Consider in just an hour, doug. Thank you very much for joining me in the studio. It’s. My pleasure, tony it’s. Been a pleasure having you next week. Savvy strategies to save you from a sexism scene policies you need in place to protect your employees and your non-profit i’m so concerned about sexism in the workplace that we’re going to start devoting cem showtime to it, this will be just one segment. There will be another show in the future devoted to it next week, talking about these strategies to save yourself and your organisation from an embarrassing situation around sexism. My guest will be hr consultant karen bradunas and also next week planned giving newsletters tips to make them punchy and interesting so that your donors actually read them. My guest will be clear meyerhoff she’s, a marketing consultant and also the creative producer to this show, you could get our insider alerts, and i hope you will like us on the facebook page. It’s, of course. Facebook dot com tony martignetti non-profit radio click on the like button. The creative producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is claire meyerhoff, our line producer on the owner of talking alternative broadcasting. Sam liebowitz and our social media is by regina walton of organic social media. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio always. With mid size and small non-profits in mind, of course, the tagline. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I hope you join me next friday for those guests. I just mentioned one p m eastern here on talking alternative, which you always find at talking alternative dot com. E-giving ding, ding, ding, ding. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Duitz are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? 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We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. I really need to take better care of myself if only i had someone to help me with my lifestyle. I feel like giving up dahna is this you mind over matter, health and fitness can help. If you’re expecting an epiphany, chances are it’s not happening. Mind over matter, health and fitness can help you get back on track or start a new life and fitness. Join Joshua margolis, fitness expert at 2 one two eight six five nine to nine xero, or visit w w w died. Mind over matter. Y si dot com. Talking.