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Nonprofit Radio for October 25, 2021: The Time For Endowment Building Is Now

My Guest:

Deborah Kaplan Polivy: The Time For Endowment Building Is Now

That’s Deborah Kaplan Polivy’s new book. She’s with me to explain why that title is a simple truth.

 

 

 

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[00:01:00.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of Takayasu says arthritis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. The time for endowment building is now. That’s Deborah Kaplan policies new book, She’s with me to explain why that title is a simple truth. I’m Tony state too planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. It’s my pleasure to welcome Deborah Kaplan Pahlavi and before I continue with her official bio, I should have asked you before we started recording, but you’re suffering a lackluster host. Am I pronouncing your last name correctly?

[00:01:14.10] spk_0:
I was just going to commend you, you were one of the few people that have pronounced it correctly. Good for you.

[00:01:56.24] spk_1:
Oh, good. Thank you very much. All right. Deborah Kaplan Pahlavi ph D consultant and author. Her third book published in 2021 is the time for endowment building is now Why and how to secure your organization’s future. She’s been a frontline endowment fund raiser researcher, university teacher. She’s trained numerous boards and development professionals to achieve fundraising success. Her consulting practice is at Deborah Pahlavi dot com. Welcome to the show, Debbie,

[00:01:57.74] spk_0:
thank you. My pleasure

[00:02:10.24] spk_1:
to have you on nonprofit radio Yeah. Endowment the title of the book end out the time for endowment building is now why is that So

[00:02:44.54] spk_0:
Well, we’ve all heard about the transfer of wealth uh, from baby boomers to whomever baby boomers choose to transfer their wealth to. And if we don’t capture that money now there is going to be, I don’t know, very little opportunity in the future. People are my age and younger, older are dying. We’ve made more money, particularly in the stock market and real estate than ever before. And if not for profits work hard. They can certainly do a good job in capturing this money for their own sustainability.

[00:02:56.24] spk_1:
This transfer was originally documented by two, two professors at Boston College Havens and Schervish. Right,

[00:03:00.57] spk_0:
yes,

[00:03:19.74] spk_1:
I’ve had paul schervish on the show. I don’t know, I don’t know Professor Havens um say a little about you know, just summarize you you, by the way I admire as a former tony I love all your footnotes and thank you for putting them at the end of a chapter and not end notes at the end of a book where I have to flip all the way back there. Thank you for deciding to put footnotes at the end of each chapter

[00:03:22.55] spk_0:
and author. An author makes no decisions. I have to, that’s what the publisher did not. Alright, well my graduate it,

[00:03:32.34] spk_1:
my gratitude to them, I appreciate either the bottom of the page or um or the end of a chapter. So you you cite havens and Shellfish just say a little about their, about their research, the magnitude of this wealth transfer and, and we’re, you know, the trillions of dollars that were anticipated to see and we are starting to see,

[00:04:54.14] spk_0:
right? Yeah. I’m not as familiar with their actual research. I’m quoting like other people quoted them when I began this book. It really wasn’t about the transfer of wealth. It was about trying to get people away from the language of planned giving toward endowment development. And then when I began to read and do my own research, I came across this study. I had heard about it years ago, but I was refreshed and doing or the research for this book and I realized that the timing was the factor. It wasn’t necessary, the language. It was, hey guys, and they say in their conclusions, nonprofits are going to get a lot of money from this transfer and then they say, if not for profits, work harder and are more aware and don’t do it in a serendipitous fashion, but do it in a very conclusive weigh in the decision making way that they’ll do a lot better than they ever imagined. And so that’s their conclusion. And I incorporated it in my book and in the book’s title.

[00:05:11.14] spk_1:
And wasn’t the magnitude of that, something like 50, $59 trillion dollars

[00:05:17.64] spk_0:
or nine trillion somewhere somewhere in that I have The numbers, but it’s 57, It doesn’t matter. It’s a lot of money, right?

[00:05:25.01] spk_1:
What’s $2 trillion between friends? All right. It’s not in the thirties? It was I thought so. There was 50 59 you know,

[00:05:31.54] spk_0:
hi

[00:05:32.62] spk_1:
double high double digits of trillions of dollars.

[00:05:49.04] spk_0:
And that was before the huge increase in the stock market and the huge increase of what’s happened in terms of asset value because of Covid. So the money really as you’re you’re right, who knows what we’re talking about?

[00:06:42.44] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. Their research was like early 2000s was 1990s, early 2000. So it’s at least 20 years old. And yeah, the way the way asset values have increased since then I mean, I don’t know what you’re talking. A $100 trillion dollars from baby boomers to the next generation. I don’t know. But It’s huge. Even even if it was flat, it would still be 59 trillion, which is enormously big. So, uh, you know, as we as we sit here today, uh, Congress is debating whether to spend $1 trillion 20 times the order of magnitude, the larger end of that scale. So that spectrum, So a lot of money, let’s leave it at

[00:06:43.78] spk_0:
that. You’re with that observation when you compare it to the congressional numbers.

[00:06:59.54] spk_1:
Yeah. You know, the magnitude is enormous. Um All right. So let’s talk about, uh, types of endowment. Can we, can we make sure everybody’s got a baseline understanding of quasi versus permanent endowment. Can you take care of that for us please?

[00:08:34.94] spk_0:
Yes, a permanent endowment is that in which money is invested and there is a spending policy. In other words, a certain percentage is distributed every year. The donor, according to the law, the donor determine what goes into a permanent endowment. The donor decides, hey, I don’t want my money spent today. I wanted to go into the permanent endowment and I have set up my gift and the verbiage in my gift accordingly. Now, many donors either are unaware that they have that choice or they don’t choose to put their money into the permanent endowment. So they say, okay, not for profit, you do with my money, what you want. And many organizations will spend that money doesn’t go into any endowment or they’ll put it in what’s called a board directed endowment or a quasi endowment, which means the board can use that money as it sees fit. What happens for the most part when boards pay attention is that they say, okay, we’ll put that money into a quasi endowment or aboard directed endowment, but we need X, Y Z votes in order to take it out. In other words, the board itself makes it difficult to spend that money so that it’s done quite judiciously as opposed to just spent every day and regular expenditures.

[00:08:57.14] spk_1:
So we have different thresholds of spending capacity. So in one and we’re gonna flush this out, there’s a state law governing that you cannot spend principle of the endowment without going through enormous hurdles usually, or versus the board being able to approve spending of the principal or some folks, you know, you might call it the corpus. I don’t like to get too technical on nonprofit radio but the principle that, uh, so bored mechanism for spending

[00:09:36.24] spk_0:
that, your first example, the law says, if a donor determines, uh, indicates that he or she wants the money or they want the money to go into permanent dominant. This is what the law subscribes. It’s the second one that’s really kind of equivocal because sports have great discretion over what they do with particularly a state. Yes, that come in without any their owner direction.

[00:09:42.64] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. Let’s talk about that law a little bit, uh, to the uniform prudent management of institutional funds act. I wasn’t gonna ask you to the site of the acronym, but I like,

[00:09:53.55] spk_0:
I can’t even pronounce it. I call it now. But

[00:10:21.04] spk_1:
so it’s uniform prudent management of institutional funds acts. But it depends on whether your state has adopted. You have to, if you’re gonna embark on having a permanent endowment, you need to know what your state law says about that because this uniform law is not necessarily adopted in all the states. It was, it was a recommendation, uh, and, you

[00:10:22.94] spk_0:
know, I think at this point in time it’s adopted by all states. Yeah.

[00:10:28.45] spk_1:
On some states though,

[00:10:30.22] spk_0:
modify

[00:10:31.23] spk_1:
Based legislature might modify it. So it may not be identical? It’s probably not identical in all 50 states.

[00:10:54.64] spk_0:
Right. But for more or less it is identical and it’s don’t correct it. And it was an attempt by state governments to, um, oversee the way in which non profits were using their requests in particular. But other future gifts,

[00:10:55.72] spk_1:
endowment money, right? Money is placed in these permanent endowments.

[00:10:59.62] spk_0:
Exactly.

[00:11:27.04] spk_1:
Uh, you know, the basic state laws basically saying keep your promise correct. You got to keep your promise to the donor. And here’s a law that enforces that exactly forces your promise. Okay, Okay. And then the quasi, the board has some flexibility as you described. And I guess if they want to be very restrictive, then they would say like it takes a three quarters vote or maybe 100%. Maybe every board member has to agree to take money from our principal of our endowment.

[00:11:35.74] spk_0:
But there’s a real difference in that in the former, the myth flower the uniform prudent management of institutional funds

[00:11:41.29] spk_1:
there.

[00:12:37.74] spk_0:
That’s a law Board has great discretion in terms of the board endowment. And that’s where I really focus. My book is hey, board, have you really analyzed what you’re doing with these monies? And do you have policies and guidelines? Do you have a preference whether you want permanent endowment or quasi endowment? And, and the most important thing, I think is once you have really determined what you want, really thought about it, talked about it, have you communicated your preferences to the donor and communicated to the donor? Why you prefer one model versus the other. So I’m really asking for boards to address this issue and not just let it go by as they receive money.

[00:12:39.45] spk_1:
Right. Okay. We have an endowment. So we’ll just put it in a savings account. You know, there’s a lot more to it. All right. You said a lot there. We’re gonna unpack some of that first. Doesn’t, it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Couldn’t, couldn’t a nonprofit have both couldn’t have a permanent endowment and a quasi endowment

[00:12:59.44] spk_0:
and most do, yeah, it’s time for a break.

[00:14:24.54] spk_1:
Turn to communications. Crisis communications, you want to keep turn to in your back pocket so that when you have a crisis or if certainly I’m not hoping it on you, wishing it on you. Not at all. If you have a crisis, then you know, you need to be communicating consistently, but not identically with your employees. You’re bored, donors may be volunteers and possibly the public through the media. Now, all those messages are not the same. I’m sure your board doesn’t get the same message that the public gets. So you’ve got to be consistent, but different right turn to can help you. They do crisis communications. So if you need help in a bad situation, that’s why I’m suggesting you keep turn to in your back pocket, you’ve got something bad has gone down. You need help communicating with all your different constituencies turn to turn to right turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to the time for endowment building is now. Now in terms of the policies, let’s talk about just how endowments generally both kinds are generally treated right the way the way we spend just a little and you know what, what, what, what do you see there? What are your recommendations around how much to spend each year?

[00:15:37.54] spk_0:
There are averages that most organizations use. They come out of national organizations and what have you? I’ve seen them as low as 3% as high as six per 77% particularly during covid times they really increase because people wanted to get more money out to the respective communities and clients patrons however you want to call the users of the monies. Um, but what mostly happens is there’s a rolling average and the rolling average it video rolling average and that allows you or the organization to think about ah ha. We don’t want to take the most one year. When are we have great proceeds asset management. We’ve got great returns in the next year. We have bad returns. So they don’t do it according to the return. They do it according to a percentage and it evens out the kind of money that is going into the budget as opposed to high, low, high, low, high, low this way with a rolling average, you’re much more aware and you can be futuristic in terms of your budget allocations and creation of budgets.

[00:17:16.54] spk_1:
So what we’re talking about is, you know, uh, let’s say a small mid sized organization has a $1 million. I like round numbers. They were, they’re easier for me to figure out as a $1 million endowment. And let’s say it’s a it’s a it’s a permanent endowment the way we’re describing. Yeah, it’s permanent endowment. And, and, and in in year one they spend they decided to spend 4%. So then $40,000 comes out of the endowment and that can be used for, You know, there may be restrictions on how it gets used if if people have like named programs that are part of their endowed that are they’re endowed funds, then part of that 40,000 has to go there to honor your promises to those donors. But then other other money may come out and be unrestricted. And so you’re you’re the presumption is that you’re spending less than what you earn Through investment management each year. So maybe you earned seven or 8% in the year, But you spent only 4% in year one so that the balance of what you learned goes back, in Does that sound right?

[00:17:53.14] spk_0:
Yes. And the balance of what you were. And so in your example, 3% goes back into the corpus and 4% of the new number because now we’ve grown By 3%. So the next year you get that much more and that’s why it’s a rolling average because the corpus let’s say you don’t make 7% you make 2% and you’re spending 4% then you have a minus number. So the purpose of all of this is to somehow get what you receive every year to be predictable and not go up and down and down and up.

[00:18:25.54] spk_1:
That’s a huge advantage to having an endowment. Exactly. You’ll know, you know, you’re trying to diversify your revenue streams and this is another revenue stream for you that you can count on. So when you do have a bad year and you lose money or only earn one or 2%, like you’re saying you still can count on The 4% or 5% whatever your board has determined for that year is going to come out and it will support you in the bad years and you’ll be profiting your end out. You’ll be growing your endowment in the good investment years.

[00:18:58.94] spk_0:
But that is also a board decision. The board has to also mhm address that spending policy. It can’t just be, well, let’s see the CFO says this year, we’re going to spend 4% and now gee it’s wrong, let’s spend 5% next year. And so what if it’s going down. So in order to keep that money coming, we’ll do 6% again. The board has to wrestle with this decision making and not just let it be haphazard

[00:19:22.44] spk_1:
and a lot of times they, the boards will board will get advice from the investment manager, what, what they predict will happen in the, in the next year or two. Uh, and how confident they are in that prediction, what we’ve learned over the past several years And what that tells us perhaps about the future, you know, so you can the board can get input often from an investment manager and you know, and this applies if you have $100,000 endowment and you’re looking at $4,000 or $5,000 coming out each year. You’re

[00:19:37.98] spk_0:
still, you know, it

[00:19:49.44] spk_1:
doesn’t matter the scale, the principles that you’re describing are all the same. The board needs to decide. It’s not just Let’s decide in December, what we’re going to take out on January 1st. There needs to be right. There needs to be a board evaluation of this and a policy around how your endowment is treated

[00:19:58.24] spk_0:
Exactly 100%.

[00:20:47.44] spk_1:
Okay, cool. Um let’s take a little higher level view. You you have, first of all, you have a chapter why we need an endowment or maybe we don’t. And I thought, well, I look back at the title of the book because the title of the book I thought was now is the Time for endowment building. So, alright, But it’s mostly a pro probably 90% of pro chapter. But let’s talk a little about some other advantages and then you you name a disadvantage and maybe maybe I missed other disadvantages in terms of equity across the years but acquainted. So aside from having a steady revenue stream, one of many, hopefully that we can count on through in the year. Why else might we want to have uh, an endowment either quasi or permanent

[00:21:54.54] spk_0:
first. Let me go back to that title of that chapter. Do we need an endowment or maybe we don’t or whatever. A favorite chapter in the whole book. And I’m so glad you picked that out because I think that’s a very important issue. Do we even need an endowment with the Sunflower, the uniform prudent investment act there. It says you have to have it at the donor directs it. But what about all this other stuff? Do you really need an endowment? And I always believe you do because you can have a really bad year in the market or you can have donors? You can have a donor who’s really supported you for ages, especially if you’re a small or middle size organization. And all of a sudden that donor either has a bad economic year or the donor can have said, you know, I don’t like you anymore. I don’t like your exact or your development director really insulted me and didn’t handle me well. So you know what you’re done, You’re out of my gift giving. And if you or look at the federal government, it changes its allocations on a regular basis. So if you don’t have an endowment

[00:22:14.84] spk_1:
and I just add one more foundation priorities, Foundation priorities change too. Or foundation may agree to fund you for three years and then that’s it. And that’s what they would extend another three years. And but they’re not, they’re keeping to what they said. So foundation can change as well.

[00:23:31.64] spk_0:
Any donor. Let’s just look at it as any supporter, whether government, whether private, whether stay, it doesn’t matter can change their minds. And if you don’t have a fallback because it’s going to take time to recuperate the kind of money that you’re losing, then you’re in big trouble. So the endowment provides you with maybe not the total replication of the gift, but certainly it keeps you from losing sleep at night because, you know, as the board and exact that you have a cushion to help you through bad times. The other reason I like endowments. And this was what I always used when I worked with potential donors is we in the not not for profit sphere, particularly for a smaller mid level organization. We have no money for research and demonstration that’s really icing on the cake. And yet it’s fundamental to the work we do. So I like an endowment to give us a little leeway in the kinds of programs that we want to experiment with, I call that money risk taking, it allows us to think about what we’re doing in alternative ways. And if we lose, we don’t succeed. Okay. At least we tried a different pathway or we took took some risks and we’re not always being so safe in the not for profit sector, we have to change the way in which we do things. And an endowment allows us the wherewithal to do so

[00:24:04.34] spk_1:
take a little risk. You know, we we we see a different way of doing something or something new that we can try uh $1000 behind a project project.

[00:24:31.74] spk_0:
And as you say, hire an investment manager, want to go into some strategic planning or hire a new officer employee to do something in a different way. Anything that we want to do that isn’t in accordance with the way in which we’ve done it over the past. And the domino allows us the leeway to try new things.

[00:24:38.14] spk_1:
How about the intergenerational Equity rationale, which cuts both ways. But let’s let’s deal with the pro the pro first you talk about it in the book.

[00:27:01.64] spk_0:
Well, intergenerational Equity is really brought up by um Tobin, who is, I forget his first name, who is a Nobel prize winner economist at Yale and what he says is an Endowment provides the same services to the generation today as for the generations in the future. So that’s what’s called intergenerational equity. Well if I go to the Y W. C. A. And I can use the pool or I can have daycare or I can have services because I’m homeless. That those same level of services will be available for the next generation of women because the endowment will be growing and the value of the money will be equal. So that’s the intergenerational equity. Others argue that this generation is going to be richer than the next generation. So why should this generation supply for the future or the opposite? No one really knows who’s going to be richer and who’s going to be poorer. There was some like Henry Hanson who is I think now an emeritus professor at the Yale Law School and it was his work that really got me started and thinking about the economics of endowment and his thinking says, hey look at Harvard Yale, these big universities, these big museums are holding on to so much money in their endowments. Wouldn’t it be better that they spend more today? And some people say, yeah, he’s right. And others say no we have to have intergenerational equity and make sure there is there for the future what’s available today. So you can argue it either way. Um and of course the favorite argument is the impact argument, do we want impact today? Do we want to spend all the money we get today and get the biggest impact today, are we pushing the can down the road and saying, okay, if we don’t spend the money today, we’re just continue waiting the problems down the road. And so what is the impact? So that’s why they’re question is, do we want an undamaged for intergenerational equity or no? Should we spend all the money today and try to solve all our problems today? And that’s a decision that organizations have to make.

[00:27:49.54] spk_1:
That was very interesting. I had never thought of it this way before. I read the book that that there are folks who say that uh, preserving endowment is actually, uh, antithetical to intergenerational equity because you folks now are doing what you just said, they’ll be pushing the can down the road, kicking it down the road. You’re you’re not investing enough and you’re you’re forcing the next generation to deal with the problem that you could solve if you would spend more so by spending less and preserving it for us, you’re actually hurting us because you’re levying a problem on us that you probably that, you know, the belief is you have a better chance of solving if you put more money toward it.

[00:28:29.04] spk_0:
Exactly. And there’s another issue in this, we keep talking tony about the organisational to organisational decision making, that’s also a donor decision. I dealt with many, many doctors who said I don’t want my money put away for the future? I want to see impact today. So that’s why a board has to discuss what they really want. And once they make that decision, they have to be able to communicate the wise and the wherefore to the donor. But ultimately, it’s a donor decision as to how the gift is made.

[00:32:11.84] spk_1:
Let’s talk a little about that donor. That’s, that’s, that’s excellent having these conversations with donors. You know, you said earlier, a lot of times, donors don’t even know that they have the choice to give a gift to endowment. A gift of, uh, yeah, that will last in perpetuity. And listeners, you’re just gonna have to get the book because Deborah talks about the phrase in perpetuity and what she learned about learned about it. But you know, we can’t, we can’t probe everything. Uh, you got, we scratched the surface, you gotta get the book. Um, but let’s say, but it is valuable to talk about, um, well, it’s all valuable to talk about, but we only have so much time. So, uh, your lackluster husted host is choosing to talk about the donor conversation, having, having a discussion with donors about an endowment gift. It’s time for Tony’s take to plant giving accelerator. So here we are talking about endowment building, right? Planned giving can be a great help in building your endowment. Lots of planned gifts come in unrestricted. I encourage you to put as much of that unrestricted money as possible into your endowment. The plan, gifts that come restricted. Those have to go into your endowment by law. So, uh, you could even take the show today. The time for endowment building is now, you could swap out endowment building with planned giving time for plan giving is now, which actually is ironic because something that, uh, Deborah and I are going to be talking about, you’ll hear the irony, just keep on listening. But for now, um, so you want to build endowment plan Giving an ideal for this Playing giving accelerator, I will help you get started in planned giving in 2022. The next class starts in January. I’ll teach you step by step, everything you need to get started. It’s a six month course, used to be a year now it’s down to six months learning exactly the same stuff exactly the same curriculum, but condensed and still only one hour per week, an hour a week. But I’ve taken out some of the free time and aside from learning from me, there’s this incredible peer support and peer learning. The existing class, the current classes existing sounds so jeez, existing sounds so I don’t know, So sterile the existing classes, the current classes, The members right now, you should hear the way they’re supporting each other, helping each other with questions about their board or individual board members. Um, donors, leadership questions. It’s a great supportive community and I have every reason to believe that the january class will be the same supportive. So there’s a lot of peer learning as well as learning from me. So you’ve got enormous support by no means are you on an island starting your planned giving? That’s, that’s antithetical to planned giving accelerator. So if you’d like to check it out, think about joining the january class, it’s all at planned giving accelerator dot com. I hope you will and I hope you’ll be with us if you want to get your plan giving program going next year. I hope youll be with me in planned giving accelerator. That is tony state too. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the time for endowment building. Planned giving is now

[00:32:21.04] spk_0:
froze. Yeah,

[00:32:43.54] spk_1:
we did freeze. Okay. Yeah. I made a little joke about lackluster host and I didn’t see, uh, you didn’t smile, was disappointed, but you’re frozen. So I’ll take that as a, as an, as an implied smile. So please, I’ll maybe I’ll edit this out or maybe not. It’s not really that bad. But talk about that donor conversation regarding an endowment gift. Mhm

[00:33:38.84] spk_0:
There are all kinds of donor conversations. The point and I and you read about it constantly in the chronicle of philanthropy is the necessity to have the conversation because oftentimes people make a state gifts and they don’t even talk to The people in the development office. That’s one. So they’re really two conversations. There is the personal one on one conversation with the organization to which the donor is giving the money, but there’s also the printed conversation or the website conversation. And that’s why I feel it’s so important that organizations make the preference and tell donors either verbally or through written material what they want and why. But back to your question on the verbal conversation. Uh huh. I think it’s very important to listen to the donor first. Everybody in this field, you have to listen to the donor and hear what the donor wants and you said something earlier in this interview where I did not interrupt you, but I did. Um,

[00:33:54.57] spk_1:
I’m like me. I just did right this second.

[00:35:43.24] spk_0:
I did get the chills when you said if the donor has directed where the money goes. I think the biggest and the most important conversation that a donor can have is how they want the money used and the most important usage is unrestricted and what we have to explain to donors is what they sail it. See as a usage today may not even be in the cards in 20-50 years. We may have conquered breast cancer. We may have conquered homelessness. That would be wonderful. But and asked me very, very clear to a donor that they, they have to think broadly in terms of how they want to direct their money if they want to direct their money at all or if they do want to direct their money that they have to have a second purpose, which could be unrestricted if the first purpose becomes obsolete. So I was always the endowment officer, the fundraising officer to try to get the most money to be unrestricted because then we would have the flexibility if we wanted to use it for experimentation or if we wanted to use it for a particular program. And I’m not sure that we talked to our donors in a generic fashion. We listen to what they want. And then we fashioned the gift accordingly as opposed to communicating what this money is really going to be used for over time. And that’s an important conversation

[00:35:50.24] spk_1:
about what our programs may look like in the future. Uh, but, but your point that we may not have some programs in the future.

[00:36:53.43] spk_0:
Yeah. And you can direct your program, your direct. I remember a woman came to me and said, you know, I wanted to defend. My father was a violinist. I wanted to have an endowment for musical concerts. And the last thing we needed was any more money for musical concerts. We needed money for Children that were challenged and needed some educational programs. And I was real clear to her that that was the need. And I brought in our educational professional and we talked about it and she completely understood and was willing to make the change and educational programming couldn’t go on forever because it changes over time. But it’s broad enough that the function is not restrictive or just broadly restrictive. and her father’s name still went on the named endowment, but it was for something that the community needed as opposed to a program that we didn’t really need it all nor want.

[00:37:01.43] spk_1:
And some of that unrestricted money could be put into endowment to,

[00:37:05.13] spk_0:
oh, this is the endowment get.

[00:37:39.03] spk_1:
Well, that was, yeah, that was, I’m going back to something you said earlier about, um, restricting restricted gifts, you know, being part of endowment, but, but unrestricted gifts, you know, you can put some of that into. I’m always advocating for clients put as much as possible, You know, I understand, you know, and it’s always a tension, of course, there are immediate needs. We got to keep the lights on, we got to pay the rent and the salaries. But you know, can we peel off anything? We peel off 15 2025% and put that into the endowment and, and spend 75% this month.

[00:39:02.92] spk_0:
That’s a different conversation. That’s a different conversation. There’s the convert endowment conversation, which is the permanent endowment conversation, which could be through an estate gift, a future gift or a current gift. This woman was making a current gift, which is another issue. We don’t think, I think, um, widely enough about talking to donors about a permanent current endowment gift. So that’s a um, let’s say you have a capital campaign. I always want to peel off a percentage of a capital campaign gift to go into the permanent endowment for maintaining that which we are building because otherwise what happens is you put all this money into the capital into the building. Now, all of your costs have gone up, but you have no wherewithal to maintain those costs and you put the organization at some kind of risk. So it’s a very wide that’s the beauty of endowment conversations. They can be very, very wide. They can be very, very creative. And the less you restrict your fundraisers imagination and your donors imagination, the more impact current and future that a gift might have.

[00:39:23.82] spk_1:
Let’s have a little fun with the phrase planned giving. I have a company called martignetti planned giving advisors. I run an online class called planned giving accelerator. But I mean, uh, there may be a common ground or maybe not, you know, that’s fine, but share your, your, the guests. So you go first. You share your thinking about the phrase planned giving.

[00:40:23.71] spk_0:
As I said in the book, I never allowed either my staff or hopefully my consultant clients or even a donor to use the word plan giving. We all plan are giving whether it’s our annual distributions or our future distributions. So planned giving as it is perceived or understood by the experts in the field are primarily future gifts. And I, my my my problem with the language is a we all plan our gifts. So it’s a, it’s the phrase is really only for the expert experts in the field. And it’s sometimes more often than not turns off boards and donors because they don’t know what you’re talking about and they think it is so convoluted and so expensive and you need fancy you should excuse me, consultants to help you go through this.

[00:40:39.24] spk_1:
You’re a consultant.

[00:43:39.50] spk_0:
Yeah. And but I don’t ever use the word plan Giving in my consultancy. I use endowment development. So that’s my first issue with the words Plan Giving. The second issue with it is plan giving is a tool. And what we don’t say is why do we want to use these grand gifts? What is the ultimate purpose of the planned gift? Do we want the planned gift to be used today? Okay, so I’m going to make a quote unquote. I’m going to set up a charitable gift annuity. It’s a future gift when you the organization received the principal after I pass away. What are you going to do with it? So my feeling is that we should concentrate on the use of the tool. What do we want the gift to be used for as opposed to the tool itself? So that’s two, three fancy dancy plan gifts, charitable lead trust, charitable remainder trust? Charitable. What have you trust? Those are going to come to most organizations through a professional advisor. They’re not going to go from the donor to the organization. So I concentrate on the book in the book with what kinds of gifts are easy for an organization to do to pursue where no attorney is needed. And then on the other hand, I think it’s very important to have outside counsel so that if you do receive as an organization, they’re kind of two ways to look at it. If the organization is the trustee of the gift that the professional advisor constructs, then the organization needs an outside counsel to make sure that the organization’s interests are protected through the document. But we don’t need all these fancy attorneys in house and what have you, especially small to medium sized organizations. There are lots of things that they can get current and future endowment gifts that have no relationship to these trust gifts. But again, my my my argument is a, the language is scary to the non professional and even fundraisers get scared by the language so they don’t discuss these kinds of gifts with their donors and ultimately, what is the purpose of the sophisticated, so called tools and what do we want to do with it in the organization? And that comes back to the board discussion.

[00:44:39.89] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah. I think we, I think we largely agree. You know, my, my use of the phrase planned giving is exclusive to those who are, I’m not even gonna say plan giving experts because I, I work with startup programs. So they’re not playing giving experts that they may never be, but they can have a, they can have a plan giving program. So I’m talking to folks who are inside nonprofits, but I understand your point to your right and I agree that it’s an off putting phrase for a lot of people. It’s just so well ingrained that my message constantly is don’t be intimidated by planned giving. Debunk the myths of planned giving. Planned giving is not a black box. You don’t, you know, I’ve got five myths, you don’t need an attorney. Like the things you ticked off debunked of top five minutes. You don’t the myth that you need an attorney, the myth that you have to offer complicated gift options, the myth that you have to spend a lot of money. I can’t remember the other two of my own debunked myths, but there’s a lot of mystique and mysteriousness and it does, it absolutely intimidates lots of non plan giving professionals and that those are the folks I’m talking to because I want to start up programs where its

[00:45:20.89] spk_0:
endowment building. See again, the plan keeping is the tool, right? It’s that is why that’s my primary Um, complaint is AIDS, the tool. We don’t talk about the purpose of the planned gift, how it’s spent when we actually receive the proceeds a and b. I love Doug whites comment to me, he calls the phrase planned giving calcified. He was using it what 30 years ago. It’s old. It’s time for us to change that.

[00:45:37.79] spk_1:
I’ve had, I’ve had dug on the show every time he publishes a new book, I have him on the show. Um, the fascinating one was the Robertson case at was at Yale. It was Yale.

[00:45:39.69] spk_0:
I don’t think it was texas, I’m not sure.

[00:45:43.17] spk_1:
All right. Maybe wasn’t really there, but it was, it was some time ago. He’s working on a new book now. So when he gets that one out, I’ll have him

[00:46:36.88] spk_0:
again. My biggest compliment. tony was when, um, two things happened. I did write him about some of the ideas that I was thinking about and never dreamt. He would reply and he replied in this long, long email and supported everything. And what was even more interesting and what he wrote to me is even with that act that we began this conversation with the uniform prudent management act, that’s in all of these states, there’s so many organizations that don’t even pay attention to it. Even when they get donor designated gifts where the donor says I wanted to go into the endowment, the organization is either unaware of the act or tends to ignore the act. And that’s where I think consultants like you and me have even a larger role is to help the boards come to grips with what they are doing with these monies and what they want to do with these monies.

[00:47:11.38] spk_1:
Yeah, It’s a, it’s an important conversation and, and the policies behind it that we talked about. Um, right. I’m, I agree, I agree. We uh, we, I guess what I’m, so you have a few things, you, you have a lot of footnotes to eat my emails with Doug White, you’re crediting Doug White and lots of cases email

[00:47:21.44] spk_0:
with White.

[00:47:24.48] spk_1:
Uh, he’s a gentleman,

[00:47:25.27] spk_0:
he’s a gentleman, he’s starling, he’s the guru. And it was very important to me that he agreed with my arguments because my arguments are not run of the mill. They are outside of what we actually for most organizations actually operate today. And that’s the reason for writing a book because you’re trying to affect change in the way in which the field operates.

[00:48:23.77] spk_1:
I would disagree with with you and Doug and playing giving. Being calcified, I would say it’s well known. It has been around for a long time. I had 60, 70 years or something like that back going to Robert Sharp senior, he was an early practitioner, uh, I don’t know who coined the phrase, I don’t know, he claims that, I mean he’s no longer with us, but um anyway, it’s a, it’s a timeworn phrase uh, calcified, Yeah, calcified, overstating, overstating. Its uh, its utility or lack of its lack of utility. I think it’s just a well well well known, well understood phrase,

[00:48:33.17] spk_0:
professionals in the field, but not the people that really matters, which is the donor and the board decision

[00:48:34.19] spk_1:
maker. That’s where we agree. Yeah, I absolutely agree with, not talking, not putting on your website planned giving options. You know, you

[00:48:41.87] spk_0:
suggest a bunch of your professional. I am the director of planned

[00:49:18.97] spk_1:
giving because that is an outward facing like that’s an outward facing title. You can know internally that the person works on planned gifts you want if you want to call them them internally, but outward facing. Yeah. Endowment development, long term, long term giving officer. You know, I tend to not like the silos anyway because I think the long term giving officers should be working a lot with the annual giving officer who’s working a lot with the peer to peer fundraiser of course, in some organizations, that’s all one person. Um All right. All right. Deborah, Why don’t you leave us with a little, um, endowment motivation? I think we’ve, you know, I feel like we’ve given a good justice. Uh, you know, but you wrap up with some final words on Endowment.

[00:50:14.86] spk_0:
You didn’t warn me about that one. Come on, think about this for a year. You wrote a book about this for for 25 years. You’re going to book, Right? And that’s why I’ve concentrated it on it. And those of my colleagues through the field say it’s about time. You wrote about it because you believe in it so strongly. I believe in endowment is like a retirement fund. If you don’t put away money for the future, you’re not going to have a future and it’s the board’s responsibility to think, yes, we have to worry about today, but we have a responsibility to future generations and future clientele to make sure that this organization is healthy today and tomorrow. And that’s why I think endowment is so important

[00:50:21.36] spk_1:
today and tomorrow. If you you see it on all the social networks and the nonprofit communities, sustainability, sustainability, well, if you if you want to live sustainability and

[00:50:34.36] spk_0:
and be healthy and be healthy, it’s really not only sustainability but to be healthy and your sustainability to be healthy in your retirement, that’s why we have our iras we want to live a qualitative life and we want to make sure that our organizations have a qualitative future.

[00:51:12.36] spk_1:
Mhm irish thought healthy was subsumed and sustainable. I just thought that meant, you know, not just not just starving, getting by, but you know, you’re you’re healthy, just sustainable. So if you want to walk the walk of sustainability, talk about, talk to your board about endowment development, Endowment growth. Do it correctly. And uh the book will help

[00:51:15.59] spk_0:
you time

[00:51:48.46] spk_1:
for endowment building is now there’s other chap, there’s a great, there’s a case study on a program called Life and Legacy of the Grinspoon Foundation. We didn’t get into that, but there’s a there’s a chapter on that could help you get started um you know, who are your best, your best prospects for for endowment type gifts and more about the titles. Uh and then the jargon. Just that’s the book. And the author of it is Deborah Kaplan Pahlavi, you’ll find her practice at Deborah Pahlavi dot com. And the book, the time for endowment building is now Debbie, thank you very much for sharing. Really

[00:51:53.09] spk_0:
enjoyed it. Thank you Tony. It was a fun conversation.

[00:51:56.18] spk_1:
I’m glad. My

[00:51:57.05] spk_0:
pleasure. Good luck to you And your plan.

[00:52:08.05] spk_1:
Giving consultancy. That’s very gracious of you. Thank you. See, and you didn’t say it to snarky either. Just a little bit, got a little bit of a pejorative tone, but I’m willing to overlook it Because it wasn’t, it wasn’t much, is only 10 or 15%.

[00:52:10.75] spk_0:
It wasn’t snarking on. I detected a

[00:52:14.40] spk_1:
little, we’re gonna play it back.

[00:52:15.64] spk_0:
There was a little snarkiness, but it was a small percent.

[00:52:44.15] spk_1:
No, no, look, okay, wait, I gotta finish up for our listeners because next week Jeanne Takagi returns with Risk Management Part two. And if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Our creative

[00:52:44.64] spk_0:
producer is planned. Meyerhoff shows social

[00:52:47.09] spk_2:
media is by Susan Chavez.

[00:52:48.83] spk_1:
Mark Silverman is our web guy

[00:53:00.95] spk_2:
and this music is by scott Stein, thank you for that information scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95

[00:53:14.05] spk_1:
percent go out and be great, mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for October 11, 2021: Next Year’s Plan For Your Year-End Donors

My Guest:

Poonam Prasad: Next Year’s Plan For Your Year-End Donors

We’re in the 4th quarter and you’re expecting a lot of fundraising revenue. You want those donors with you next year and beyond. Poonam Prasad has the strategies to make that happen. She’s president of Prasad Consulting & Research.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:10.84] spk_4:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:01:41.44] spk_1:
Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of Ruba malaria if you made me hot with the idea that you missed this week’s show next year’s plan for your year end donors. We’re in the fourth quarter and you’re expecting a lot of fundraising revenue. You want those donors with you next year and beyond. non Prasad has the strategies to make that happen. She’s president of Prasad consulting and research on tony state too planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s a pleasure to welcome to the show for the first time Hunan Prasad. She is founder and president of Prasad consulting and research, providing board and staff training, audit, major gift capital campaign and publication services to non profits. She’s on the executive committee of the Giving institute, leading consultants to nonprofits before nonprofit work. She was an investigative reporter and worked in journalism, advertising and pr in India south Korea Hong kong the West Indies and the U. S. Her company is at Prasad consulting dot com and she’s at prasad c Welcome to the show. Prasad opponent. Prasad. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:01:53.44] spk_0:
Thank you Tony. It’s a pleasure to be with you.

[00:02:02.54] spk_1:
My pleasure to have you. Thank you. There’s so many so many facades. I guys called um facade instead of being um so you’re in you’re in new york city, right? You’re coming

[00:02:05.65] spk_0:
to us from new york? Yes. Coming to you from downtown Manhattan

[00:02:09.30] spk_1:
downtown. What neighborhood?

[00:02:11.54] spk_0:
Oh, east mid down. Sorry.

[00:02:13.84] spk_1:
Oh, now you moved in downtown anymore.

[00:02:16.17] spk_0:
Yes. Now we moved, we moved recently near Grand Central Station.

[00:02:20.74] spk_1:
Okay. And your Grand Central. And how about your home? Where where, where is your home?

[00:02:24.55] spk_0:
Also in midtown,

[00:02:26.08] spk_1:
midtown, midtown east. Also,

[00:02:28.39] spk_0:
midtown east. Also. Okay,

[00:03:06.04] spk_1:
East side of new york city. For your business and your home. Wonderful. So we’re talking about this year’s fourth quarter donors and how we want to treat them and work with them So that we hold on to them into 2022 and beyond. So just, you know, because we know the donor attrition is a big problem. It’s a appalling somewhere around 75% annual donor attrition rate. What do you see? You know, generally that, uh, nonprofits could do better about holding on to their year end donors

[00:06:17.64] spk_0:
actually, tony uh, the attrition rate or the leaky bucket is almost, uh, from three donors, you get down to 1.5 or from two donors, you could be down to one next year. So for all the efforts that you’re putting in to bringing these donors in. If you think about, you know, we were a research firm. So we often get people asking us, can you find me new donors? Can you find me new donors? I’m sure we can find them new donors. But the point is, once they’ve got them in, they have spent so much effort and time and money on getting them in. And then if you don’t steward them, if you don’t get to know them and you don’t work with them, then you’re going to lose them by next year. Um, and that’s the tragedy of uh, fundraising. You know, that is really very inefficient. So I suggest only just two little tips, the donors that you get in at the end of the year. There are only two things you need to do with them. one is get to know them. And then the 2nd 1 help them to get to know you. So show them that you are doing the right thing with their money. You know, the impact report reporting, telling them what you did with their money and how you could not have done it without their money. And the second thing learn about them. You know, if you were trying to become friends with someone, you went to a party and you met somebody and you said, you know, this was a really interesting person. Uh, they came to my birthday party, they gave me a present. I would like to be more friends with them. Would you not write them or thank you not? Would you not invite them to a body afterwards. Would you not say it? Let me have coffee with you. These are simple things that we do in everyday life. But then when you’re the executive director of a of a charity, a little social service charity, you said, I don’t like to do fundraising? Well, it’s not it’s human relations. These are people who gave you something they didn’t have to give you. They could have bought a boat, they could have bought a car, they could have bought a dress, they could have bought a rug for their living room. No, they gave that money to you. Shouldn’t you be grateful? Don’t we tell our Children you get a thank you gift for Aunt Mabel. You never met Aunt Mabel writer. Thank you. Not sit down here and right, right, and a thank you note, she sent you this gift. It’s simple. It’s it’s it’s not it’s not it doesn’t even have to be about fundraising. Yes. A lot of small agencies don’t have fundraisers, don’t have dedicated development people, but this is not even about development, This is about standard manners, you know, standard courtesies, things that we grew up with. But when it becomes, oh my goodness, it’s my donors. I don’t like doing this. I’m afraid to ask them for more. You know, just thank them first before you think about asking them for more, you know, and don’t wait too long to figure it out. You know, have the plan now, you’re getting the money in 40% of the money is going to come between October and November and December, that means it’s coming in now, October. You know, and in December you’re gonna get 20% of your money. So what is your plan for January? What is it that you’re gonna do?

[00:07:17.04] spk_1:
Okay, well, we’re gonna we’re gonna get there, we’re gonna get there. Hold on. Um So you made a couple of things, points that I want to amplify about it. Just being a matter of common courtesy in in a lot of respects, and it being about relationship building. All right. So, you’ve got, you know, in in in corporate marketing, there’s the idea of get a finger grab a hand. You know, someone walked into a Starbucks, they bought a coffee. Well, Starbucks doesn’t only sell coffee. They sell music, they sell food, they sell coffee accessories, they sell a tire, right? But not to mention they sell an environment. Uh, so I think there’s a lot we can learn from that. You know, get a finger grab a hand. So someone, let’s let’s take the donor that’s made their first gift, Right? Because that’s the tougher one. That’s the that’s the easiest one to lose

[00:07:20.79] spk_0:
that 1st 1st. That’s the that’s the most fragile relationship,

[00:07:56.14] spk_1:
right? So, we’re gonna start with that. I’m giving you the toughest hypothetical, right? So, all right. So we’ve got a bunch of first time donors, we had a very successful fourth quarter in donor acquisition. We brought in a good number. What however good number is defined by My listeners. That could be 12. It could be 1200. It could be 12,000. We’ve got a bunch of new first time donors. You started to allude to, you know, what’s your plan? What’s your plan for january? What’s your first recommendation for? What we’re gonna do with this, this nice rich cadre of first time donors?

[00:07:59.40] spk_0:
Well, my first recommendation is of course they didn’t within 48 hours to get a tax

[00:08:03.07] spk_1:
receipt. If it’s

[00:08:04.11] spk_0:
Over a certain amount that you need to give them a tax two

[00:08:06.41] spk_1:
$100, requires a receipt. How about your about just a simple acknowledgment letter

[00:08:20.04] spk_0:
Also, you start then you start with the next. So then depending on how much money they got They sent you, you need to figure out who they are. If it’s over $1,000, you need to send it to somebody to research somebody in your office or somebody you outsource it to. You need to figure out who this donor is and why they gave to you.

[00:08:34.84] spk_1:
Well, all right. But for some non profits that could be, if it’s over $100,.

[00:09:16.54] spk_0:
Yes. If it’s over $100, you might wait till January and take the whole batch and screen them. So we are now screening a batch for a social service agency in Connecticut and we’re screening uh $690 that gave From $20 up in the last two years now. It’s late that we’re doing it now. But you know, it’s better than nothing. So ISIS suggests that, you know, we have another client that we’re doing over the pandemic. They said they had 274 new donors who gave over $500. And we’re looking for people within that Group within that cohort who would give maybe $10,000. They actually have people, we just finished that project and they actually have people who would give them, not just $10,000, but $100,000.

[00:09:46.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. All right. Let’s take a step at a time. So We’re sending our acknowledgment within within 48 hours. And if the tax receipt is required, then you might incorporate that into your acknowledgement or you might send something separate. Alright. We’re saying thank you fast. Now, is there is there nothing else between, you know, suppose that’s in october or november, donor. Nothing else between that and screening them in january. Don’t we want to we want to be involved with

[00:10:41.94] spk_0:
them. Yes. Yes. So then you start then you start with the seven. Thank you. Then you start with the seven. Thank you because this person has given you a a donation and depending on their level of giving and the effort you have to put in. You start with sending them your annual report, your newsletter. Welcome email. Some some agencies have a three series of welcome emails. And so you do that. Maybe you send them a donor survey which they respond to and tell you what aspect of their uh of your program they are interested in. That will help you a lot uh to know you know, we have a social service agency. They do senior care, they do middle school education, they do uh other kinds of adoption. So now which program is that person interested in? They can tell you or you can find out given are based on when you do the screening and when you do the research, you will see what else they’re giving to. And that will give you a clue as to which part of your program they care about.

[00:11:03.94] spk_1:
All right, well, you also have a clue based on what they gave to. Yes.

[00:11:04.45] spk_0:
Yes. If if

[00:11:05.88] spk_1:
if you know a lot of people don’t designate a gift. I agree. I agree with you. But if they designate their gift to a particular program, then you know where their affinity is.

[00:11:14.69] spk_0:
Yes. And you know that in the database right away. Of course.

[00:11:33.44] spk_1:
Absolutely. Yes. It’s important to preserve what people give to. Just like. It’s important to preserve the donors survey results that you suggest? Absolutely. Okay. What what might be. What what might we be soliciting uh information about in that in that follow up donor survey? You want to get to know folks better

[00:12:47.54] spk_0:
which aspect of the program they care about how they heard of your agency. You know uh Would they ever would they attend a webinar? If if you had one would they be willing to travel and come and see your facility? Uh You know is there a particular staff person that you know they have met with or or they know about you know each each agency is different. So you would ask different questions based on what you want to know about them. Uh what would help you? So those would be for instance with this where there are three different uh we have an irish theater company. Well they would want to know which which playwright you know with their favorite if you’re a music or something you might want to know which music they care about. If you’re a medical agency might we used to send out service and say which disease do you want to know more about? So we can send you newsletters about that disease. So you know based on your interest based on your work. You ask the right questions.

[00:12:49.08] spk_1:
Okay. And you also mentioned the seven. Thank you.

[00:12:52.23] spk_0:
Yes

[00:12:53.93] spk_1:
I say a little more about your seven. Thank

[00:15:37.44] spk_0:
you. This is this is my mantra that I have been teaching. You know I’ve been teaching at N. Y. U. And also at Columbia and I teach workshops all the time. And this is one of my mantra that I teach. And now my students have started deciding it back to me. So and it seems like oh my God you’re going to say thank you thank you thank you. It’s not that you have to be creative. So you might send them the tax receipt which is the first thank you. And then depending on after that you might have uh the executive director writer. Thank you. You might have the development director writer. Thank you. You might have the program director. We have a little archaeological excavation. You know there are two main archaeologists, archaeologists involved with it. and depending on which one uh is uh you know closest to that person who send the gift. We’ll have them right appears on the on the thank you note which we draw for them for some people. I might call them and say you know because I’m in new york city I might call them to say thank you. I have received your gift. It’ll take a while for us to process it. But in the meantime I want you to know that your check was received and we’re so grateful and the excavation will start on such and such a date and we’ll send you pictures and this is our facebook page and you know communicate with them. Uh one of my friends uh sent her son to a boarding school and she sent a little gift where she’d been sending it to the local school all the time. But now because it was a boarding school, the parents suddenly she got a call from my parents really wanted, why is the parent calling me when she said, you know, I know you sent a gift and I wanted to tell you thanks from the school. But also I want to tell you that I was yesterday at the tennis match in which your son played and my son is captain of the team and he played so well and we were so proud of my goodness, do you think that lady is not going to give another gift after that? I mean it’s just brilliant and it wasn’t even a staff member. It was a volunteer. I have I have another agency this year. There was a crisis and people ask me and I happened to have insight into that particular problem. They said what should we give to? I said, oh, this is a great agency. I’ve been, you know involved with them as a volunteer for a long time. You know, they use the money very well. They’re doing really great work. They sent the money. I sent the money. None of us have ever gotten a thank you note. Now they’re doing the work. They have social media, they have facebook, they have Lincoln they have a blast. They’re sending us the, all the information about what they’re doing and we are so happy. They’re doing it. But they didn’t do God one Thank You. And one of the donors sent it from a donor advised fund. He’s got no thank you, let alone seven.

[00:15:43.44] spk_1:
It’s time for a break.

[00:16:43.64] spk_2:
Turn to communications. I’m on their email list and they said something this week. That’s very interesting. They talk about seeing good news stories on social media, uh, specifically linked in, in this case and the uh, frequent lament that people will, will comment that you’ll never find stories like this in the mainstream media. In fact turned two points out that many, many of these good news stories originated in mainstream media. Um, you know, some are, we’re in newspapers, others might have gotten exposure from national outlets like the new york times or CNN, or one of the major networks. But the point is a lot of these stories originate and in some mainstream media and then make their way to social media. So what’s that mean for you? It means there are a

[00:16:44.64] spk_3:
lot of journalists

[00:16:58.94] spk_2:
that are interested in good news stories that maybe just generate a laugh or a smile or it’s, it’s um, it’s more of a story about work that a nonprofit has done.

[00:17:02.04] spk_3:
So the journalists

[00:17:03.33] spk_1:
are out there.

[00:17:04.28] spk_2:
They are hungry for these good news stories. If

[00:17:06.79] spk_3:
you’ve got something

[00:17:07.85] spk_2:
like that.

[00:17:09.74] spk_1:
Look internally,

[00:17:10.74] spk_3:
if you’ve got some good news

[00:17:27.94] spk_2:
turn to, can help you get it noticed right, help you craft that good news story and then get it exposed in all the outlets you’ve heard me talk about. So they finish up this on this. I’m choking up. That’s, that’s how that’s how, uh, much this touches me,

[00:17:33.04] spk_3:
they finish up there

[00:17:58.64] spk_2:
their email by saying there are lots of journalists out there that are ready to give good news stories a look despite what you may read on linkedin. So, you know, they’ve got their eyes on the media market. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. Now back to next year’s plan for your year end donors.

[00:19:01.14] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, that’s that is a very bad practice To have gone. Well, you know, some folks say 24 hours, you’re, you’re being more generous 48 hours, that’s still fine. But If it goes much longer than that and you’re, you’re saying it’s been months or whatever, you know, that, uh, to not acknowledge every single gift, I don’t care if these are $3 gifts. I don’t care if the dollar and a half. It still deserves an acknowledgement. You just never know. Someone might be testing you with a small dollar amount and really who gives a dollar and a half anyway, so that, that’s, you know, that’s a hyperbolic on the low end, right? Uh, but if someone gives you $5, they might be testing you, they might have capacity to give 5000 or 50,000. They may have capacity. They may feel whether they can’t or or they know they can, but they’re they’re trying you out every gift deserves acknowledgement. So when you were just describing that’s very poor practice.

[00:19:08.04] spk_0:
Well, unfortunately, the excuse is that they are because they’re doing such good work. They are understaffed and their non profit. So they don’t have capacity.

[00:19:34.24] spk_1:
That doesn’t, that doesn’t sell. That’s a that’s a nonstarter. You need to invest in your organizations to the extent that you can thank people. Thanking people is not overhead, It’s not worthless. It’s it’s an administrative investment. It’s not an expensive, it’s it’s an investment in the relationships that you’re talking about. You mentioned earlier, you know, absolutely relationship building, if that’s an investment thanking

[00:21:02.24] spk_0:
people. Absolutely, and and that’s how one needs to think about it. And and you know, the board members, the staff, the executive director, everybody needs to be aware that how important this is. Now, another thing that people ask us a lot is we got a gift from a donor advised fund and we don’t have any access to the donor. So we don’t know how to thank them and we want to know who they are, what they are and you know, they’re freaking every sort of possible way of trying to google it to trying to get us to do it. This is so simple. This these these two donors who gave to this charity that gave through the donor advised fund that I know about, they are friends of the board members if they put a list in front of the board members and said, you know, we got a gift from. So and so family fund and unfortunately we don’t know how to thank them. They said that maybe they sent a thank you note to the to the donor advised fund agency. Somebody would speak up or you look in your database and say, oh, they came to the gala. This is the same person who came to the gala and sat at, you know, board member access table. So he’s gonna know this person. So let’s tell him that your friend gave us a gift even though there was no gala, even though there was just a virtual gala and he still gave us a gift. He didn’t even sit at your table.

[00:21:24.64] spk_1:
All right. So those, right. Those are, those are good ideas. But there is frustration among, among nonprofits getting donor advised fund gifts when you know, okay, so you’re right, try try your board query your database. But there are gifts that come that sometimes that folks can’t identify and that I know that is a frustration among nonprofits.

[00:21:56.24] spk_0:
Yes. But you know, more and more people have who have set up donor advised funds want people to know who is giving. It’s, it’s less and less about being anonymous. Now, people are going back to setting up foundations or entities from which they can give, uh, and be known and they want that because they want to add their credibility to the gift. They want people to know that a person whom they know give to this charity because it helps the charity.

[00:22:28.74] spk_1:
It does. Right. But there are, there are donors who would not agree with you. But I do, I agree. But there are always some donors that are going to remain anonymous. And I mean, I’ve always thought, you know, focus on the donors who you can identify. I understand the frustration for those. You cannot, they may come to you through a facebook fundraising event and facebook doesn’t share the information. They might come to you from a donor advised fund. That is not a name that you can track, uh, focus on the folks that you can thank and for the donor advised fund. Of course we should be sending a letter to the fund. Right, thanking asking them to forward the letter onto the anonymous donors.

[00:23:12.94] spk_0:
Exactly. And they would, I’m sure the same donor, the same donor, the friend of mine that gave because I said, oh, this is a good charity could give to them. It’s also sent to another charity in the same space. And he got his seven. Thank you. He actually told me I got seven. Thank you. So, he said, you know, the development director wrote, the executive director wrote the board member wrote, they sent him an annual report. You know, they invited him to an event. They sent him different things. You know, I mean reports, personalized. Yeah. All right. I mean, you could take a little video and send it to the person, you know, that you can do

[00:24:18.44] spk_1:
personalized video is a terrific idea. Um, I’ll give a shout out to a company that’s not expensive. Bond euro bongiorno dot com, bong boro easy personalized videos. You shoot a one minute video and you say thank you. And you can, you can be walking, you can have any background you want to know the production value is not the concern, sincerity, The genuineness. That’s the concern. And you do it in a 45 seconds or one minute video. You sent it right back to the right to the person. You can do it immediately. You could do it the next day. So, and Bongiorno is by no means the only personalized video platform out there. But Um, yeah, you’re right. Personalized video is a good one. all right. So you mentioned these screenings. So now we’re now we’re a little longer on now. We’re into January. Right? We’ve done our activities for the fourth quarter. Now we’re conveying into January. What kind of information uh, you’re looking for in a, in a screening. Does it have to be a commercial screening? You know, what are we,

[00:25:09.24] spk_0:
what are we looking at? You could, you could do research or you could just go for a screening depending on the number of donors. If you have seven donors, you know, you just give them to somebody to research who has tools like screening tools and research tools and ask them to do it for you and that’s all you need, You don’t need a sophisticated screening. But if you have 670 donors or something that I knew and they were given maybe over $20 or $50, then you certainly should have a screening down. But don’t try to do it yourself because then when you get it back, you have this information and you have no idea what to do with it because there are mismatches in the screening. It’s an automated process. There are mismatches in the screening. You know, there’ll be a lot of tony-martignetti is and Putin presides in there and you have to make

[00:25:30.54] spk_1:
sure that I don’t know if there are such good examples who not pursued and tony-martignetti are not very common names, but there’ll be a lot of there’ll be a lot of smith’s and uh smiths and joneses et cetera. Okay.

[00:25:32.68] spk_0:
Yes. And and you know you being me is how many food and presents? All

[00:25:39.12] spk_1:
right. There aren’t too many tony-martignetti is I would be surprised.

[00:25:50.84] spk_0:
Okay. In fact it’s more confusing when there are only two or three because then you really begin to think this is your person and then it turns out it’s not your person.

[00:25:53.14] spk_1:
Right? Okay. So you’re you’re you’re caution against doing it on your own or I mean if you’re going to do it on your own. You said if you had just seven or so. You know, you’re not gonna hire an agency for that. But you just, the point is you need to be careful that you’ve got the right person

[00:26:08.50] spk_0:
right? Like checking,

[00:26:10.24] spk_1:
check middle initials, check addresses, check whatever you do know against what you found to make sure you’re, you’re dealing with the right person.

[00:27:04.64] spk_0:
Well, you can, you can outsource, you know, a little bit of work every month with somebody with some research firm. We do that all the time. Uh, you know, it’s not that we do it all, you know, in one go and finish. You know, we have like an arrangement where if somebody new comes in, gives more than $1000 get more than $500. Whatever matters to them, they send it over to us and we screen them, research them, give them back information on that person. Okay. Okay. But it’s geared to small agencies. It’s geared to small agencies so that, you know, because otherwise what happens is the Harvard University’s and the big, big who have seven researchers get all the big donors because they have the tools and they have the staff. So you, you do need to implement some of the techniques that the top fundraising organizations you

[00:27:13.64] spk_1:
mentioned, you mentioned before screening and research tools there, are there some out there that you can suggest that folks can use

[00:28:02.94] spk_0:
on their own. Yes. You could, you could make a substitution with with something like ivy or donor search and try to do some work on your own. You could look at the, you could look at the linkedin profile of the person. If you know, you know, I mean small simple things. You could google them of course. Uh small things that you know, you could look at if you know where they work. You could look at the bio most law firms have the lawyers while on on the website many firms have the, you know, employees, bio senior employees bio doctors. There are free sites for looking at doctors to see what kind of specialty does the doctor have. Is it something that’s relevant to my cause?

[00:28:05.45] spk_1:
Yeah. Good. Alright, right. If you can find the person’s company firm that they work for or practice. Okay. And you mentioned I wave and donor search.

[00:28:31.94] spk_0:
Yes. These are subscription services. So you have to pay a little bit uh, you know, usually it’s in your subscription and you can check out your donors through that. And the aggregate information of other gifts that the organization has received. Other organizations have received from the same donor. Okay. Right. Right.

[00:28:37.14] spk_1:
Other charities that the person is given to us. So then you start to get a little profile of person. All right. So you can have

[00:29:03.54] spk_0:
to be careful because of the person your donor is in new york and the person, a person with the same name is giving in texas, you have to be careful to see why would my donor given texas? Maybe it’s another person or maybe he went to school in texas and he is giving in texas. Or he’s giving to a senior center in texas because my daughter has a mother there who’s in that home. So you know you need to be a bit intelligent about.

[00:29:30.84] spk_1:
Yeah right with that. With that caution you gotta you gotta that caveat. You gotta be uh certain that you’re dealing with the right person. Otherwise you’re going down you’re gonna start talking to the person about their gifts to texas. And they’re going to say I don’t know what you’re talking about and then then you’re gonna be embarrassed. So all right. All right. Um Okay so screening is a possibility. Good. You can engage your company. You can do some on your own. What what what what are we gonna do from what we learned from our screening now? What?

[00:31:54.44] spk_0:
So there’s the thing I mean you know we do research where research for and we send research to our clients. The question is how do you read this research? What does it mean to you? What what is the interpretation you get out of a research report on? Suppose we write a little bio on this person. So what what what what is the strategy that comes out of this research. So the first thing that indicates higher giving is age. So anyone over the age of 60 or 65 has more disposable income. They paid their mortgage, they probably paid their children’s college education. They’re beginning to think about their own, you know, legacy and they’re beginning to give more generously. So 60, you have a better chance of getting a higher upgrading their gifts before that. People are still on that little hamster wheel, you know, increasing their mortgage, buying a little bigger house, sending their Children to a better school. You know, getting them into college, they just often do not have time unless they are very community minded and they might give to their local community or their college or things like that. But but they become more Uh philanthropic, more generous generally after the age of 16. Now, there are always exceptions. The other thing there are a lot of people look for as you know, being in plan giving is people without Children, because people without Children do not have that usual legacy is, oh, I’m leaving good Children into the world. Yeah, that’s great. But when you don’t have Children, you have to really think, what is it that I am leaving? What footprint am I living in this world that I lived and who benefited because I lived And those people take a little more care and thought and and usually we’ll try to make an impact in a different way and you can help them do that and make them happy. And you know, there there’s a lot of studies that say people who give are happier people who give actually benefit more from their gifts than the person receiving. So it’s at that age, particularly when you have that reflective time for reflection that we see better gifts.

[00:32:02.64] spk_1:
It’s time for tony steak too

[00:32:59.84] spk_2:
planned giving accelerator. I’m starting the promotion again this time for the January 2022 class, I have accelerated the accelerator. It’s no longer a 12-month course. It is now a six-month course. I will teach you step by step, Everything that was in the 12 month course, but we’re gonna, we’re gonna step it up six month course. I’ll teach you everything you need to know about starting your planned giving program and you’re not only learning from me, you’re learning from your peers, folks who are similarly situated, they’ve got the same frustrations, they’ve got the same tensions bandwidth constraints as you do. You learn from them, They’re your, they become your friends, your allies, your safety net in planned giving accelerator. So if you want to get your plan giving program started,

[00:33:03.14] spk_3:
You want to start in 2022,

[00:33:05.64] spk_1:
you can start

[00:33:06.28] spk_3:
with plan Giving accelerator. I

[00:33:19.34] spk_2:
hope you’ll join me. All the info you need is that planned Giving accelerator dot com. That is tony stick to, we’ve got boo koo

[00:33:20.86] spk_1:
but loads more

[00:33:21.61] spk_2:
time for next

[00:33:23.10] spk_3:
year’s plan for your

[00:33:24.59] spk_1:
year end donors,

[00:35:46.14] spk_0:
then there are other things like education for one thing, if you know the education you can no other people who went to that school. So maybe you can have them go on. Maybe have a board member went there so you can build a relationship more strongly. But also of course education indicates more disposable income. So you begin to see when you build a profile of the person you say, oh well they went to the school from that area, They studied social work or they studied history or that tells you something about what they are interested in. Right? And then there’s the question of, Although I said that people who don’t have Children, you know, are very sought after by plan giving professionals, on the other hand, people in their lifetime are more generous who have Children over the age of six Because they’re trying to inculcate good values in their Children. They start to see the value of a community. So there are studies that show that people who have Children over the age of six, there could be 6-18, they could be 18-24. But a family unit, a couple usually has more disposable income. It could be a same sex couple or a heterogeneous couple. But the heterosexual couple. But the point is because there are two incomes in that family, they usually have more disposable income. So so that that’s important when you see that. So those are little things that you’re looking at. And then of course there’s the interest, what else they give to, You know, how old are they? Was it their parents that also gave to this charity or this type of charity? I have a I have a friend and he gave to a university music program. And I said to him, why do you give, you didn’t even go to that university? Why are you giving to that music program? He said, well, I became friends with the dean. They invited me to an event. I went on a trip with them to Austria to listen to classical music. And he said in the end, you know, my father died when I was very young. And the one thing I remember is sitting on his lap when he played the piano. So the piano music to him was, and he doesn’t have any Children. So, you know, that’s what makes him happy giving to students who play the piano

[00:36:20.23] spk_1:
reminds us of course reminds him of his dad. And he hopes that that uh those young students will have Children of their own and their those Children will sit on their laps the way he sat on his dad’s lap. All right. Those are good. Those are, those are valuable insights that we can, we can get from uh, that we that we can get from the screening. So now going back to what you had suggested earlier when you said get them to know you and let them get to know, uh, sorry, get to know them and let them get to know you. So how do we do the second part of that now that we have this information, valuable insights? How do we let these new donors get to know us?

[00:37:37.13] spk_0:
Well, we talked about the series of three emails that welcome them. We have invitations. Uh, and of course in this environment, maybe you can’t invite them so easily, but you could still send them a video. Now. We had a homeless, uh, organized agency for homeless people last year that we were working with. And they sent out a video of their new building and somebody sent them $25,000 just from that video because it was the Executive director going through the building and saying, you know, we had such hopes for this building. We finally got it built. We’ve got all these people were going to bring into this building and the person was so touched. He was also a senior citizen. He had money. He felt like, oh, let me help. There are other people out there my age who do not have housing. And here is somebody who’s an agency that’s providing it. And that video, you know, a small video that they didn’t even actually seriously ask for money in it. They just said, and if you’d like to, you know, there was a little bit and

[00:37:44.23] spk_1:
well, it it touched it touched somebody. Well, video can do that. It’s powerful that way.

[00:39:16.22] spk_0:
All right. And of course a tour with the executive director. So you’re really getting to know the person, you know, face to face. So as best you can in this environment. You know, it’s a trusting relationship. So by video you’re seeing them as best you can. The other thing is of course you could set up coffee with them and people are much more accessible now because they’re not going out. So people are taking calls even if they are not. Yeah. In where at home, they’re still taking calls from wherever they are. They’re doing zoom with you. They want to be conducted. All of us are starved for human contact. We took these things for granted. And now suddenly we realized how valuable our community is. You know, I walk out, I’m an anonymous new york city right where nobody really knows anybody and you walk on the street and nobody should recognize. You know, it’s not like that anymore. The moment I walk out on the street, my neighbors are standing out there, they’re also walking. There’s no nowhere to go and nothing to do except to go for a while. So they’re all out there walking and they all suddenly know each other. So you realize how important your community is. So do you think that the area neighborhood association and things that are being done in our neighborhood are getting more attention. Sure, more people are planting, helping to plant in the parks, more people are helping to give to the local community association. Suddenly that’s becoming more important. So something that’s good for the small agencies.

[00:39:18.39] spk_1:
So engagement, Yeah. Uh, engagement at whatever level it might be something communal and community and in, in face to face,

[00:40:10.61] spk_0:
yes, might be something come and paint a mural on your wall of your, you know, of your agency. We have a, a friend of mine runs a clear art center community, you know, they make pottery, they got the local artists together to come and paint the wall even urine Corbett, they could still do that. You wear your mask, You come and paint the world their artistic. So you could plant flowers in your garden, invite them to do that, invite them to do outdoor things in the local park. You could have a gathering of rooftops. People have been doing gatherings or some of our clients have been doing gatherings or rooftops whatever you can do outdoors, especially in the summer. And then also we were talking, well, we were

[00:40:14.43] spk_1:
talking about january, but that’s okay. Well into spring

[00:40:55.71] spk_0:
now january, you could do a lunch and learn, which is a good time to do a lunch and learn. And that also gives you an information back because the people who attend, you do the lunch and learn on different programs and people sign up based on the interest. So then, you know, well this donor signed up for this lunch and learn on this program. So obviously that’s what they care about or they might write to you and say I didn’t, I really wanted to attend this, but I couldn’t. So you send them the recording of that lunch. That’s another, uh, value of having something which is recorded, which you’re doing on zoom. You can record it like, just like your radio programs, tony

[00:41:15.11] spk_1:
I’m a, I’m a big fan of big fan of audio. I think it’s very intimate medium, yep. All right. So we’ve, we’ve, we’ve thought through our engagement, it might be something in real life. It might be something virtual. I love. I mean, you gave a lot of good ideas. Um, now we need to plan for the next solicitation.

[00:41:21.53] spk_0:
Now

[00:41:49.61] spk_1:
we’re in, we’re in like the third quarter of 3rd quarter of next year and it’s coming time to solicit the person again. They made a year into gift this year. So we’re going to presume, but they’re, they’re going to do the same. Let’s exclude the folks who maybe became major donors and they’ve got a relationship now with a gift officer. We’re not, we’re not at that level. Uh, we’re dealing with the larger group. We’re planning our fourth quarter. What should we be thinking about in terms of possibly upgrading or should we not try to upgrade in the second year. What’s your advice around planning that, that second year solicitation?

[00:45:27.39] spk_0:
Well, another thing that we never spoke about and some of my clients and colleagues will be very upset if I don’t mention it is creating a giving circle. So you could have, if you have enough donors at certain levels, you could try to upgrade them by creating a council, uh, you know, giving society, you know, so, so somebody who gave 500 you could give them an incentive to upgrade to 1000 because when they’re at 1000 they’ll get such and such benefits. You know, they’ll meet somebody that they care about or they’ll get a painting or they’ll hear a concert or you’ll have some event just for them. So, so you’re constantly upgrading those who gave 500 to 1000, those who gave 1000 to 5000, those who gave 5002, 10,000. So, so a little theater client is probably going to say, oh, you know, uh, famous irish actor is going to speak with 10 of you and you only get invited to that if, if you give, you know, a little bit more than what they were already given and that and that creates a cohort of people. So they have a little sense of community because that giving society is going to meet, um, we have the example of a museum that was up. It’s a very famous glass museum called the corning Museum of Glass and it was very well supported by the corning company. But the corning company went through some very tough times and so they needed private support during that period. So they started with a giving society where people came up, they went through the museum, they were passing by on their way to Niagara Falls or they were interested in glass or whatever and they were told that if you give this much that’s great, we are very grateful. But if you give this much you’ll be invited to an event the opening of our show and guess what? We’ll fly you up in our private plane because corning had the private plan and you won’t have to drive all the way you know from new york city well and and that was something the company could no longer support the museum financially. But they had this plane which flew up with their executives and I was such a such a cashier to to fly up in the blind drain, arrive at this museum, attend this beautiful event on roman glass with food from roman times and then have the director of the museum walk you through the show. I said one of the most beautiful things that you know, I was a stuff remember trying to attend this and I thought I was wowed and and so you know you can be creative with almost anything you could if you’re a social service agency will say well I can’t do that well you know you have people in your community who will come out and provide their celebrity help to you. So you could still have somebody do a little concert or somebody, somebody from your community who’s a wonderful singer musician or something. And and it may be not relevant, but maybe their daughter was helped by your uh, you know, educational charity or their mother was served by your senior citizen center. They will do things for you. There was a person who used to come and play the piano at a senior citizen center in uptown all the way up, you know, above the Columbia University is in Morningside

[00:45:30.03] spk_1:
Heights or something, riverside

[00:46:01.08] spk_0:
riverside riverside. Yeah. You know, they’re above Colombia where the cloisters, the museum is there and nobody knew who this person was. But when we looked him up, he was a very famous pianist who used to play at the Carlyle and his mother was in the center. And so he would come up and perform. And so we asked him if he would perform and he did a concert and Steinway hall for us because he was a famous man and there are little treasures in your community. You just have to find out about them. There are little gems floating around.

[00:46:14.68] spk_1:
All right. So you like the idea of incentivizing folks to give a little give more, Even even in the 2nd year. So they were they were our, it was first year was last year. Now we’re planning for the next year incentivize them to increase even in that just in that second year. Yes,

[00:46:46.98] spk_0:
yes. And they will because you’ve been talking to them, you’ve been engaging with them in different ways and, and maybe some of them will become, you know, much higher level donors because for small agencies, a small amount can make a big difference. There is if they gave that small amount of a much larger organization, they can’t give them that personalized attention and it’s not going to make, its going to be a drop in the bucket.

[00:46:52.58] spk_1:
Yeah. There are those folks who will be more will be more generous

[00:46:56.35] spk_3:
to smaller agencies

[00:46:57.35] spk_1:
because they get a lot better treatment. They have more fulfilling relationships with a smaller organization than they would at an organization where their gift was

[00:47:07.88] spk_0:
not in their communities. They, you know, they feel closer to it.

[00:47:14.38] spk_1:
Okay. Alright then. Um, why don’t you leave us with some final thoughts please?

[00:47:54.88] spk_0:
Well, just remember about the leaky bucket. You know, it’s a, we all grew up with that song. There’s a hole in the bucket, realize a dear Liza. So just remember you are not going to let your bucket leak. You’re gonna make every effort you can to get those the donor who’s gonna fall through the cracks, Give him as much attention as I say lavish movie cultivation, whatever tactics you can think of. Whatever relationship building and getting to know you uh, thoughts and strategies that you can come up with, have a plan, learn about them and let them learn about you.

[00:48:16.47] spk_1:
Excellent. I’m gonna look, I’m going to remind myself uh refresh my memory about there’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza what do we do something like? What do we do? All right, thank you. Hernan Prasad founder and president Prasad consulting and research. The company is at prasad consulting dot com and she is at Prasad C Thank you very much. Program.

[00:48:24.37] spk_0:
Thank you Tory pleasure to talk to you.

[00:48:27.07] spk_1:
My pleasure as well.

[00:48:30.77] spk_2:
Next week engaged

[00:48:31.62] spk_3:
boards will

[00:48:32.58] spk_2:
fundraise with Michael Davidson and brian

[00:48:55.77] spk_1:
Saber from asking matters if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Mhm. Our creative producer

[00:49:26.17] spk_4:
is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty you with me next week for nonprofit radio Big Donald. profit ideas for the over 95% go out and be great. Mhm