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Nonprofit Radio for March 20, 2020: Your Organization’s Health

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My Guest:

Jamie Bearse: Your Organization’s Health
At ZERO, The End of Prostate Cancer, they have a culture grounded in high responsibility, high freedom, transparency, accountability, curiosity and adaptability. They’re a Nonprofit Times 50 Best Places To Work. Jamie Bearse is ZERO’s CEO.

 

 

 

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[00:00:27.68] spk_0:
This is Sam Liebowitz, the line producer for tony-martignetti non profit radio, and I have a message for you from tony this show to its pre recorded today. When I recorded it, the 2020 non profit technology conference was going ahead. Not surprisingly, it’s been cancelled, no less grateful to Cougar Mountain software for sponsoring non profit radio at the conference. So I’m going ahead with Tony’s Take two. I thank you for your understanding. I hope you’re well and safe and taking care of those close to

[00:00:49.14] spk_2:
you. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:01:26.61] spk_1:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our seventh show in the Innovators. Siri’s your organization’s health At zero the end of prostate cancer, they have a culture grounded in high responsibility. Hi freedom, transparency, accountability, curiosity and adaptability and Maur. There are non profit times, 50 based best places to work. Jamie Burst is zeros CEO

[00:01:33.34] spk_2:
on tony Stick to 20 and T. C were sponsored by

[00:01:34.00] spk_1:
wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com.

[00:01:39.02] spk_2:
But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund

[00:01:41.34] spk_1:
is there. Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day

[00:01:48.12] spk_2:
trial and by turned to communications,

[00:01:50.95] spk_1:
PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO.

[00:01:58.94] spk_2:
It’s a real pleasure

[00:02:29.30] spk_1:
to welcome Jamie Burst to the show. He is CEO of Zero the End of Prostate Cancer. Over 15 years, he’s held nearly every job there, and they’ve raised about $100 million for the cause. Zero has six consecutive years as a non profit times. 50 Best places to work. Jamie has been a congressman’s press secretary, a reporter and editor, a radio deejay and a movie theatre projectionist. He writes comedy as a hobby. Zero is at zero. Cancer dot or GE, and he is at Jamie Bearse Bursts. Welcome. Welcome

[00:02:36.66] spk_2:
to the show, Jamie Bars

[00:02:38.74] spk_5:
I tony thing for having

[00:02:39.70] spk_2:
me on. It’s my pleasure.

[00:02:43.72] spk_5:
Quite a bit of research that many years back before you uh uh, get being a projectionist.

[00:02:52.31] spk_2:
Uh, yeah, way Have always saying on

[00:02:52.93] spk_1:
this show that I need an intern. Whenever I make a mistake, I say I need an intern to blame to blame for that mistake. But

[00:02:59.36] spk_2:
yeah, we don’t We don’t actually have

[00:03:03.77] spk_1:
interns. This is All of this is all either uncovered or, uh, somebody at zero. Give it to us.

[00:03:08.04] spk_6:
I

[00:03:08.10] spk_2:
mean, I don’t know who’s the US. We might talk about us. Me? Um, so So you’re doing some innovative things at

[00:03:16.23] spk_1:
zero. The way you define the culture with the culture of there is based on and the way it’s it’s service oriented. Um, we’re gonna get into all that. We get the full hour together. Obviously. The place to start, though, is acquaint us with. We’re gonna be talking a lot about what goes on at zero of as employees. What is zeros work?

[00:04:57.51] spk_5:
Sure. Our mission is right there in our name. Um, hear the end of prostate cancer. We’re being too and prostitutes or by advancing research, improving the lives of men and families and inspiring action And how that breaks down that we fight to increase prostate cancer research funding. Uh, we inspire action among men and families through a run walk series that we have that 47 cities across the country from L. A to New York to Minneapolis, to Miami and all points in between. And we have ah ah, quite a Amiri out of programs in order to be able to help like Krusty Cancer. And uh, at the top of that list that I’m most proud of is this program called 0 360 that we step in to have a patient navigator palpitation for free, doing comprehensive work on their behalf to being able to reduce financial distress. But a patient goes through while battling cancer research shows that nearly half its about 40% actually of cancer patients and quitting their treatment altogether because of financial issues. So we step in and help pave the way so they can get better and have a happy, healthy life with that, with their family going forward.

[00:05:01.95] spk_1:
And I presume there’s some kind of lobbying that you’re doing is well, for, ah, awareness among our our leaders.

[00:05:48.14] spk_5:
That’s right. We do advocacy work. I just just concluded our annual zero prosecutes or summit down in Washington, D. C. Where we had advocates from all of the country actually coming in from 40 states, and, uh, we send them to Capitol Hill to fight for, to protect an increase prostate cancer research funding. Onda, um, interesting side Good here is that not a lot of people know this, but the Department of Defense, please, is a significant role in the war on cancer. Um, like I said not. Not many people know that, but what they do. And there’s a program called the Prostate Cancer Research Program within the Department of Defense that has done some pretty significant breakthroughs and prostate cancer treatment screening,

[00:05:54.68] spk_2:
even

[00:06:18.15] spk_5:
for new treatments for prostate cancer in the last eight and 1/2 years. And, uh, you, uh, screening tool that is able to identify if you have an indolent to mark or an aggressive one. That’s really our, um, our advocates work over the years, and coming out to this summit has really paid off in a big way to be able to helped three million American

[00:06:22.71] spk_1:
those recent breakthroughs that you just described. They came from the department defense.

[00:06:49.45] spk_5:
It was funded by the Department of Defense. They go out to institutions around the country from places like Johns Hopkins, MD. Anderson Um, University of California, San Francisco. Institutions like that do you do the work, but the funding is geared toward being able to rush brilliant ideas from the science bench to the patient’s bedside is rapidly and constantly as possible.

[00:07:11.74] spk_1:
Okay, um, and you’re right. That 40% figure is startling that 40% of men end their treatments for prostate cancer for financial reasons that that’s that’s I don’t know, it’s upsetting. It’s annoying. It’s frustrating on its Shouldn’t be, uh, she’s

[00:07:15.73] spk_2:
okay. Um, how many employees

[00:07:18.30] spk_1:
at AA zero?

[00:07:21.35] spk_5:
Right now we have 32

[00:07:23.64] spk_2:
including victory

[00:07:24.60] spk_5:
and the year somewhere closer to 40. 39. 30 38 39 please.

[00:07:38.64] spk_1:
Oh, are you You’re gonna be close to 40 body into this year. Okay, that’s that’s pretty substantial growth for a 32 person organization. And, uh, on that includes virtual employees, right?

[00:08:11.50] spk_5:
That’s right. Yeah. We have employees all around the country. I would say about half of half an employee there in the Washington D C area. Uh, and then we have chapter directors that are scattered around the country. Several in California. I’m outside of Boston. Uh, yes, Chapter director and Texas in Minneapolis. And another one in New Jersey. And, um, another one in l. A.

[00:08:15.27] spk_2:
Okay, so you you have virtual over. Well, is on site. Okay, well, I bring that out

[00:08:38.03] spk_1:
because I think that has implications for a lot of what we’re gonna be talking about. The core values. I mean, how do you have you instill those in virtual employees who don’t have whoever who don’t have the benefit of on site on dure high touch? And that’s, you know, that can be isolating. So hopefully we’ll get a little into what? What your work is to make sure that that doesn’t become the case. The reality for the for the folks who are virtual

[00:08:51.04] spk_2:
yes. So, you know, we want to get into some of

[00:08:53.91] spk_1:
the details of the culture. We just have Jamie. We have about a minute or so before our first break. Okay, I’ll let you know when they’re coming up. So, um, you want to just talk a little about just briefly and just sort of tease it and we’ll get into Maura lot a lot more about being like, um hi. Responsibility and high freedom,

[00:10:14.88] spk_5:
I’m sure. Absolutely. Um are our culture is what sets us apart in order to be able thio make ending prosecutor a culture driven passion. If you Will and, um, in Global will break that down. Um, as we talked throughout the hour. But what it comes down to having the right values that everybody shares across the organization. It’s, um, committing thio, um, five aspects on how we over communicate with each other in order to be able to drive clarity. Um, and it comes down Thio, as you just said, Hi. Hi. Responsibility and high for Gemma’s bringing people into the organization that have a high level of, ah, off, uh, self regulated self management, um, that have high responsibility. And when individuals with the high level of responsibility. Um, I’m sorry. Individuals with a high level of responsibility are entitled Thio High level of freedom. And we’ll we’ll dive into that too.

[00:11:22.58] spk_1:
Yeah, we absolutely Well, all right. We got to take this break about 30 seconds wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time wegner-C.P.As so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner who you know, just on the show. But last week, you two and ah, and the firm experience as well, with a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under their belt so that your financial needs are not only covered but well covered, and you get the benefit of lots of their vast experience around nonprofits. Wegner-C.P.As dot com The place to start your due diligence as you’re exploring the possibility of new work for help with the 90 or audit. Okay, um, now let’s go back to your organization’s health. Jamie burst CEO at

[00:11:24.40] spk_2:
zero. Um what? What does this mean,

[00:11:28.83] spk_1:
20 to be high responsibility,

[00:11:54.01] spk_5:
I’m sure I actually have my gift. Thio steer back to, um make him actually make the case for organizational health there. There’s a lot of, uh, organizations out there that believe if you’re the you’re the smartest organization out there, then you’ll be successful. Um, and I don’t necessarily believe that that is true. I think that

[00:11:54.80] spk_2:
that that

[00:14:59.64] spk_5:
helps. Ah, but it really starts with having a healthy organization, an organization where folks within it are our, um are honest with each other in a way that they embrace vulnerability based on trust, and, uh, we can get into exactly what that means. But what it kind of looks like is that it means that it’s okay to say that I made a mistake, or you’re better at this than I am. Or, um, I messed this up, but, uh, next time I’m gonna do even even better than when you have that vulnerability. Been trust with one another, you’re able to engage in healthy conflict, and conflict happens. Ah, in any relationship, any organization. But I tell you how you handle that conflict in a way that you’re you have confidence of communication, that you get what you want while preserving the relationship that you have in a way that’s acceptable for everyone who’s involved. And, um, that looks like, um, understanding if I think that when it comes to conflict, people are either either one of the other, either people are bulls in China, shops or people are conflict of waiters. Now there’s some people who are also kind of ambidextrous without depending on the situation. Sometimes they’re bulls in China shops, and sometimes they’re just avoid complex altogether. But understanding your colleagues and what their appetite is for conflict and how they handle it and engaging in healthy conflict, where you really hear each other out in a healthy manner allows you to drive to commitment together on DDE. That looks like, um, excuse me, That looks like, um asking clarifying questions of like, Okay, you know what? I’m What I hear you saying is X y Z, and that gives a chance for the other person. Thio change that. Clarify that, or confirm. Confirm that that that’s, um that’s what everybody’s saying. That that way we’d have a good, clear understanding of what decisions are being committed to what goals are being committed to. And when that happens, it sets up an atmosphere for a peer to peer accountability in which, you know, something doesn’t go the way that we’ve committed to doing something. It opens the door to asking questions and getting really curious about like Okay, what I thought we committed to was X y z, But what happened was a b. C. Um, you know what happened or what changed along the way and being able t o get an understanding of how things fell apart. And if, um, if maybe, um that that accountability looks like, um seeing, uh, your kind truth, which is, you know, being able to give somebody feedback in a way where you care personally but challenged them directly

[00:15:05.46] spk_2:
on.

[00:15:11.64] spk_5:
And, um, that that comes down to saying that you acknowledge, um, how much they care about the cause and how much they care about their relationship.

[00:15:17.93] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:15:38.64] spk_5:
I want to do and I mean job, but also challenges them directly on improving. But when you have all that working together, the trust, uh, healthy conflict, that commitment, the peer to peer accountability that really wipes away a lot of the B s that can happen in organizations, the water cooler talk that goes on. And then you can really just roll up your sleeves and get to work and focus on results.

[00:15:44.52] spk_2:
Yeah. Jamie, where do these

[00:15:45.98] spk_1:
ideas come from? You kind truth and over communicating vulnerability based trust. What’s the genesis of these ideas?

[00:16:11.24] spk_5:
They come from different places, but But I really loved what isn’t Is an author out there, uh, by the name of Patrick Ngoni, who put out a book a few years back called The Advantage by organizational. Health trumps everything else in business, and he talks a lot about vulnerability. Based trust is having healthy conflicts. So some of it comes from there, and then

[00:16:18.18] spk_2:
some of

[00:16:34.64] spk_5:
it, uh, sort of picked up along the way and really puzzled puzzle piece this together. And some of the ideas come from, uh, Silicon Valley and Netflix in the amazing growth that they’ve had through the years. Um, and then from her mother,

[00:16:37.34] spk_2:
Okay. From other

[00:16:38.27] spk_5:
places just picked up along the way.

[00:16:40.24] spk_2:
One of the things I don’t

[00:16:41.08] spk_1:
know about you.

[00:16:41.71] spk_2:
Are you the founder of Zero?

[00:16:59.16] spk_5:
I’m not actually, I The organization started in 1996. I came on in 2002 as, uh uh, doing communications. And, uh, we did really well. And that CEO at the time, And I think a couple of years later came to me and said, Hey, you know, there’s a lot of transferable skills on, um, getting media placement, Thio getting people toe donate to the organization. So,

[00:17:09.53] spk_2:
yeah, come

[00:17:10.74] spk_5:
through and responsibility from there,

[00:17:12.37] spk_1:
right? All right. I know. I know. You progress through lots of different responsibilities. Um,

[00:17:17.97] spk_2:
okay. What? What does um, what is high freedom? Translate to

[00:17:23.69] spk_5:
Hi, freedom. High responsibility have freedom. Uh,

[00:17:26.55] spk_2:
you know

[00:18:21.44] spk_5:
that if you’re, um if you’re getting your job done, if you’re hitting all of your goals and you’re behaving with three values that we sent off across the organization and ex selling on all of it. Then year entitled to having high freedom. Which means, um, we don’t track personal time off. Believe in, uh, have being able to establish work life balance by taking the time that you need Thio? Uh, yes, Teoh, go to the doctor’s office, take a vacation. Um, you get your car fixed. Whatever it takes in orderto have that work life balance because if you again going back to the high responsibility part, those who are highly responsible are not going to abuse the system because they constantly want to stay on top of They’re they’re game stand off of their job and the tasks that they have to do and really excel it.

[00:18:26.18] spk_1:
Yeah, yes,

[00:19:06.24] spk_5:
when that happens and we don’t need to micromanage And, um, it also but also ties into, um, being able to give, um direct in the moment can to feed back another way that were much different from other organizations. But do you like end of the year reviews? Instead, we thought with with giving feedback in the moment, Why wait? It’s almost, you know, Why? Why wait, uh, nine or 10 months to the end of the year just to talk about some of the things that you could have corrected. And in the winter of spring, you hear the feedback now and corrected.

[00:19:07.11] spk_2:
So that means, like, as

[00:19:08.09] spk_1:
a project is ongoing, you know, there’s a justice is constant of feedback loop, as as something goes well or goes badly.

[00:19:17.32] spk_5:
Yeah, way.

[00:19:24.84] spk_2:
Just look down. Just I’m What does this look

[00:19:25.48] spk_1:
like? I’m trying to drill down. So people get a sense of what the what the work patterns are and communications patterns?

[00:19:33.04] spk_5:
Uh, yeah. The constant feedback loop is, uh, mostly around or three values that we have and that’s being humble, hungry and smart.

[00:19:40.84] spk_1:
Yes, you’re a J HHS.

[00:21:02.94] spk_5:
That’s right. Right? You got it. Humble breaks down into, um, it’s very it’s very straightforward. It’s putting team accomplishments in front of your own. You go hungry means that you’re driving for success. You’re looking for that? I’m next opportunity. Um, you’re good with stepping in outside of your, um your job description or your area of expertise to be able to help others across the organization and smart as a little nuanced. It’s It has a lot to do with, um, emotional intelligence rather than book smarts. And that comes down Thio being being attentive listener and understanding how you’re behavior in your actions affect others across the organization. So ah, lot of the feedback happens around those values. They believe that everybody’s gonna make this cake, but, um, everybody’s gonna fail and hopefully we fail fast. We learn from those mistakes and, uh, way we strive for for success. But it really starts with having those three values lived by all the time and being able to get feedback on how you’re impacting others through two or three values. Um, is what set this up for? For that success?

[00:21:32.11] spk_1:
Yeah, HHS humble, hungry and smart, I thought of health and Human Service is, but I know it’s not that on Dino. It’s not humanities and Health Service’s either. That was something that I think of the Carnegie Mellon University, but I was flashing back. But so So there’s a lot of communication around these three. Like, this is the Those are the three, um, sort of bedrocks of feedback. Is that right?

[00:22:05.43] spk_5:
Uh, yes, because again, if we were behaving in a way that humble, hungry and smart Everything else falls into place. Uh, after that, it really goes back to you know, if you’ve made a mistake or you’re not, um, you don’t, don’t you? Ah, you know, cast the right way. Um, you know, those things happen. It’s inevitable, human. But But if you’re your behavior is in a way, what say that, um example

[00:22:07.00] spk_1:
stories, air. Good. If you can think of something, that’s

[00:22:56.58] spk_5:
a good one. Um, sure. Um so if if, um if I’m being humble and hungry. But I’m not, um, sort of lack that emotional intelligence in a way that I don’t. But to really understand fully how my actions are, the things I say, uh, fall on other people and how that how it makes them feel or motivates them. Then I sort of turn into an accidental mess maker like I’m driven and want to succeed. You hungry? I’m humble and putting a put the team first. But if I don’t understand how my actions are affecting others and not inspiring them, that I’m going around an organization and making messes all over the place rather than really understanding how You know, my words or actions are falling on others.

[00:23:01.54] spk_1:
I’m getting nervous that I could never survive it. Zero? I

[00:23:05.00] spk_2:
don’t know. I would want to. I certainly would strive

[00:23:06.75] spk_1:
to. I’m not by any means putting down what? Your what? Your Ah, the way you work. I’m just not I don’t

[00:23:13.00] spk_2:
know. I hope I hope I would It would be something like that.

[00:23:15.15] spk_1:
Out of that I inspired too. But I’m not sure that I would

[00:23:18.44] spk_5:
touch people all the time. It’s not. It’s not an issue of Ah, you know, if you if you fall off in one way or you’re not being, you know, if you’re missing one of these, uh, out of HHS, uh, we caught you along,

[00:23:33.09] spk_2:
okay.

[00:23:41.04] spk_5:
And help you help you get there and being well rounded. Tell me when. Yeah, if you refused to be, embrace the values of our culture.

[00:23:43.53] spk_2:
Yeah, Dad. And

[00:23:44.62] spk_5:
then it’s done. That’s when it’s time. Just part ways.

[00:23:47.34] spk_1:
Somebody says this is gonna

[00:24:29.99] spk_5:
fire anybody or part ways with anybody because of the mystical or hey, we’re all pulling together for certain budget number or a certain number of patients helped, you know, There are outside factors that have have an impact on that. No. Why should anybody get punished? A replica reprimanded for outside forces that impact our ability to drive to a goal. It’s only internally and really self managing yourself around these values. Its what you can control. And if you’re open and willing to be coached, we’ll get you there.

[00:24:30.75] spk_1:
Okay. Maybe I’d have a shot. Uh, keep my

[00:24:33.42] spk_2:
eye before

[00:24:36.61] spk_5:
that. He’s going back. Um hey. Started 18 years ago. I’m not sure the organization were higher. Uh,

[00:24:45.52] spk_1:
that’s true for a lot of us. Uh, I’m not sure I’m qualified for some of the jobs I used to hold, but

[00:24:51.13] spk_2:
I’m not. I’m not sure I’d want

[00:25:15.02] spk_1:
them anymore, either. I think about I think about the dysfunction that I used to survives in some places and, uh, okay. Plus, I was in the Air Force, had five years. Ah, Whiteman Air Force Base in the Air Force. And, um, there’s not a lot of at least then I didn’t see a lot of emotional intelligence. Um, in any case. Okay, well, I’m gratified to know I’d have a shot. I’d have a mentor. I’d have some help

[00:25:20.20] spk_2:
this has I have lots of questions, but this has implications

[00:25:22.98] spk_1:
for obviously, you’re sort of you’re alluding to it

[00:25:28.17] spk_2:
toe higher for hiring. How do you screen

[00:25:29.01] spk_1:
for someone who was gonna embrace HHS?

[00:25:33.04] spk_5:
Yeah, that’s a great question.

[00:25:34.72] spk_2:
It’s

[00:25:44.54] spk_5:
funny. Would be, uh stop. Say this in the two parts one is, uh we have, ah, a lengthy interview process where we, uh, make sure that, uh, more quite half the organization, but I would say, get 8 to 10 people across the organization, end up meeting the candidate to get to know them.

[00:25:55.54] spk_2:
I’m not

[00:26:12.51] spk_5:
sure that that somebody, especially the potential direct report of this person, spent some face time outside of the conference room of the the office where we typically would have interviews to just get out and grab a cup of coffee or whatever. Just you see what they’re like outside of the office to really get to get to know them.

[00:26:16.55] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:26:36.94] spk_5:
And then, uh, we’ll get through the interview process, its funding. It always seems to fall on me when it gets to the later stages of the interview process. Thio, ask all these really quirky questions that I don’t think anybody’s ever done before. And I ask things like, um, tell me. Tell me about, um you know, what would your friends of your colleagues say? It’s most annoying about you.

[00:26:41.45] spk_1:
Oh, jeez. I killed myself. That would be

[00:26:51.64] spk_2:
I don’t mean I killed I killed the interview, and I don’t mean I don’t mean I’d kill it. I mean, I’d kill my chance if I started talking about what my friends think of me. Oh, my God. Yeah. What your friends say, Oh, my God,

[00:26:56.38] spk_5:
About you.

[00:27:05.28] spk_1:
Yeah, well, he he does stand up comedy, you know? But I don’t. He’s berating a little bit. I don’t know. He worries about commas in e mails.

[00:27:09.54] spk_5:
I did that.

[00:27:15.93] spk_1:
Yeah. What would my friend said? What would you have that I’m kind of? I’m just tinkering around the edges.

[00:27:16.84] spk_2:
That’s a great question. What would my I think you know what I think my friend would say. I think he’s a He’s a loyal guy. Like he’s the guy who puts people together all the time. He’s always drawing. It’s a guy who always creates the Air Force for Union and the high school reunion and the the law School reunion. You know, this is the guy. I think he’s always putting us together, even through all the years when we had kids

[00:27:36.04] spk_1:
and because I don’t have kids. So when people have kids and they couldn’t make the reunions, I would still keep in touch, would send pictures to the people who couldn’t

[00:27:43.52] spk_2:
come. I would I would say they probably would say, I’m like the connector. I’m the people The guy who, like brings through the decades

[00:27:50.71] spk_1:
has been bringing people together. I think that’s what they would say.

[00:27:55.63] spk_2:
That is, that is, I know I

[00:27:57.81] spk_1:
was focusing on the comes in the e mails I was being Hearst to myself. I was being humble, was trying to embrace you. Humility.

[00:28:05.19] spk_2:
But that’s cool. I don’t have another turn

[00:28:06.61] spk_5:
it around and say, What kind of people do you find less knowing,

[00:28:11.04] spk_2:
uh, people who don’t

[00:28:28.03] spk_1:
treat people with respect? You know, just that could be ah ah, and in consideration on the subway. Or it could be harsh words, or it could be just I think of unkindness. I mean, it’s unkind to leave food in the office refrigerator for too long. Um,

[00:28:33.08] spk_2:
you know people who don’t treat others with respect

[00:28:35.05] spk_1:
those people, those people. Really? Yes. Because

[00:28:38.59] spk_2:
sanadi

[00:28:39.04] spk_5:
handle it.

[00:28:40.78] spk_2:
Um, on the extreme, I

[00:28:49.33] spk_1:
will, uh, this is on the far side. I will. I will not deal with them as much. I will. I will keep a distance because it could be infectious. And I don’t want to be infected that way. But for every other part of the spectrum,

[00:29:06.04] spk_2:
um, I try. I try to coach I mean, you know, but it’s Yeah. I try to help Andi. I certainly

[00:29:12.83] spk_1:
am acting the way this is turning into. You’re not charging me 300 bucks an hour for this. Are you starting it starting into a therapy session?

[00:29:24.50] spk_2:
No, I tried toe way around. Usually. Don’t let people do this. You’re an anarchist. No, but I’ll follow. I’ll finish

[00:29:25.65] spk_1:
the thought since I started. You asked.

[00:29:27.73] spk_2:
I try to act

[00:29:28.61] spk_1:
in the way. I’m always acting in the way that I would like to be to be acted upon or, you know,

[00:29:42.02] spk_2:
treated the way I like. I treat others the way I like to be treated. So certainly by setting an example. But for a lot of people, that the example isn’t enough. Um, so it’s those ones in the middle that don’t that don’t learn

[00:29:53.92] spk_1:
from me by example of others that you have to sort of sit down and, you know, and that that could be difficult. How am I doing?

[00:30:55.34] spk_5:
You know how great I mean, the reason for those three questions is it, uh, drives to one of those values that I just talked about because, uh, smart We’re having that emotional intelligence that you understand. You have a good understanding of what what your weaknesses are and how people view you. Almost. I wouldn’t say at your worst, but like, you know what’s most annoying about you. At least you have understanding of how you behave and interact with other people and have that we see how that basic understanding and then know how you can rub people the wrong way. And then it also tells me of, um, you’re aware of what kinds of of of people sort of rub you the wrong way and how you sort of Copa that are managed. That and, uh, you know, if it was a real interview, I might choke down a little bit more on that You know how. How would you treat those kinds of people that I know you’re the most when you come across them? If if you were working out there So it’s sticking

[00:30:56.03] spk_2:
a gun

[00:31:01.67] spk_5:
on my quirky questions. Gonna come in a way of trying to get an understanding. Do we? Do we have a humble, hungry, smart person coming in the door?

[00:31:05.07] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:31:11.52] spk_5:
right off the bat. Because we know that they’re gonna be a rock star in their time If if if they’ve already got it figured out.

[00:31:46.54] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. All right. We got to take another break, Jamie. Hang on. Cook, Amount and software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features that you need and the exemplary support you’ve heard me talk about That understands you and how you work. They have a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s Take

[00:31:48.88] spk_2:
two. 20 ntc. The 2020 non profit technology conference coming up.

[00:33:25.40] spk_1:
Um Mmm mmm. Mmm. Mmm. March 24 25 26 in Baltimore. Maryland non profit radio is going to be there on the exhibit floor. We are sponsored there by Cougar Mountain Software as well. So we’re gonna be sharing an oversized booth, a double booth. I’ll be doing tons of interviews, as I you’ve heard me say through the years. I think this is the fifth year I’ve brought this show to the non profit technology conference. I know that we the interviews are not a TTE. This stage, because we’re pre recorded today are not quite are not booked yet. But I know we’re gonna get 30 or more last year with 34 36 interviews in two and 1/2 days, all from smart, smart people who are doing sessions at the non profit technology conference, and I’m there to get picked their brains for your benefit. And then that helps them as well, because they get to be heard by 13,000 people over 13,000 instead of just the 50 or 70 or 100 that came to their. Their session at the conference so worked out quite well, very grateful to be sponsored by Cougar Mountain software there. If you’re going, come see us boots 3 16 and 3 18 is where we’re gonna be and you’ll be hearing a lot more about 20 NTC on. I’ve got a video on it at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony. Take two. Now, let’s go back to your organization’s health. My guest is Jamie Bursts, CEO of Zero. The end of prostate cancer. Um, are Jimmy? Um, so

[00:33:28.37] spk_2:
that was interesting. Like I said, I usually don’t

[00:33:30.78] spk_1:
love Guess. I know I stopped short of those kinds of introspective questions that I have to answer, but

[00:33:36.68] spk_2:
I feel like I was having sort of a Dick Cavett moment. You know, you don’t think you know Dick Cavett?

[00:33:42.35] spk_5:
Yeah, of course

[00:33:43.01] spk_2:
he’s watching

[00:33:43.98] spk_5:
him on HBO.

[00:33:45.11] spk_2:
Yeah,

[00:33:45.54] spk_5:
I think that kid going talking about baseball or history, whatever.

[00:33:49.94] spk_2:
He used to really open up. And, uh, he would talk

[00:33:53.07] spk_1:
about himself. Not as much as he would give the guests time, but

[00:33:56.95] spk_2:
he didn’t shy away

[00:33:59.29] spk_1:
from personal questions, and I always admired that him. I’ve been studying him on YouTube because some of the old stuff from the seventies is is clipped on YouTube.

[00:34:14.76] spk_2:
So I feel like I was a kind of a Dick Cavett move it. So thank you. Okay,

[00:34:15.02] spk_5:
well, hopefully we had ah revelation for you, I think. What? What happened

[00:34:19.17] spk_2:
there? Uh,

[00:35:00.80] spk_5:
you’re talking about asking those kinds of questions and probing to see if you have the values that we’re looking for. Brings it back to what I was saying earlier about vulnerability based trust because it’s not just the admitting your mistakes and weaknesses, but it’s about opening up and sharing something about yourself, Uh, that you typically wouldn’t And, um, that vulnerability based trust it’s really the glue to relationships, if you can. You sort of let your guard down and talk about, um, you know, talk, talk about you know what’s going on your head or what’s going on in your heart on your life. You typically wouldn’t share in a normal work environment that helps forge a stronger bond,

[00:35:07.33] spk_2:
absolutely within

[00:35:08.57] spk_5:
our colleagues at zero. And when

[00:35:11.04] spk_2:
we’ve got

[00:35:20.61] spk_5:
that the strong bond happening through vulnerability based trust, then it makes it really makes all the other things that happened in an organization. Like I said before the conflict stuff, um, it makes it easier to overcome.

[00:35:27.94] spk_1:
Yeah, I can absolutely, absolutely see that. See what you called vulnerability based trust. I just think of his trust. But maybe I’m thinking of it more on the friend side, You know, you’re applying it to a professional environment. But, you know, I think of the relationships I have with my friends. I mean, I

[00:35:44.09] spk_2:
open up to them, I trust them, and I become vulnerable. And they become vulnerable to me

[00:36:07.13] spk_1:
as they tell me things about their kids, their husbands, wives. That’s the, uh, again, I’m through something of it on a friendship level, and I would just call that trust. You’re You’re in a professional environment. They have to be some boundaries. Uh, so I can I see. But I like I said, I mean, I just think that is trust among friends, so I can

[00:36:12.34] spk_2:
see. And I could see how that

[00:36:17.85] spk_1:
would help you transcend other problems in the workplace.

[00:36:52.91] spk_5:
Yeah, that’s right. I mean, um, you know, having building trust is it’s really a key with loved ones. Thio building a strong relationship. So but why should it be any different with your colleagues? I think a big part of that trusted to be vulnerable and owning up to your mistakes. You know, holding up, asking for help and talking about your talking about your experiences and sort of a two degree your innermost thoughts. Because if you do this, then you feel sort of that deeper trust within the they work with every day and now

[00:36:57.88] spk_2:
s so you’re transcending. You’re transcending

[00:37:30.26] spk_1:
the average work relationship by exponentially. The average work relationship is a bunch of people who put together they don’t get the opportunity to meet each other before they’re hired. The way yours you’re describing, At least you have a better chance because because there’s so much exposure in the hiring process and I do want to get back to the hiring process to we’ll get there. That’s my job. But s o a bunch of people put together and then they have to coexist 8 10 hours a day. But

[00:37:30.46] spk_2:
they never really get to know each other. You know, they have lunches occasionally, and they have drinks. But it is There’s not really that they’re not really

[00:37:47.64] spk_1:
becoming vulnerable to each other in the environments that I’ve worked in and what I’ve consulted. I mean, I don’t see that I don’t see this level of trust among employees. It’s just a bunch of people foisted on each other, and they’re sort of treading water, doing the best they can in relationship building.

[00:37:58.73] spk_5:
Um, yeah, I’ve seen that and just about every workplace that I’ve ever been. And uh, besides uh, besides where I’m at,

[00:38:07.09] spk_2:
besides Iraq, Yeah, I

[00:38:37.93] spk_5:
agree with that way. Do our best to make time for that way encouraged. That happened during the matter, of course, of the of the work that goes on within zero. But then, you know, for example, way. Try to reinforce that on a weekly staff meeting that we have many, many staff meetings intending. Organizations are dull and they’re boring, and people will sit down and read off a bunch of numbers or a bunch of metrics. Key performance indicators and self people’s eyes bleed, and

[00:38:41.14] spk_2:
they

[00:39:05.42] spk_5:
taking notes, get hand cramps, and they would rather be anywhere else. But sitting around the conference from table listening to all that stuff. So instead, we we take time in our staff meetings to sort of build up team members a bit. It’s sort of a time Thio to come together, and sometimes we’ll go around the room with the question of Of getting to know each other more of Like what? Um, you know how many siblings do you have? And you know, where do you fall on that? That order or something that’s a little bit more difficult to answer? Like, um, something that was a big mistake that you made at work last year. How did that affect you out of that changing?

[00:39:18.68] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:39:41.88] spk_5:
that way it’s sort of open people up, Thio being able to have that to be vulnerable and courageous and a little bit in some ways, Thio speak up. And that would strengthen the bonds with for their colleagues. And then, um, it also makes them more approachable

[00:39:42.84] spk_2:
to

[00:39:44.76] spk_5:
when you can be vulnerable.

[00:39:46.04] spk_2:
I’m guessing you

[00:39:50.10] spk_1:
you have. Ah, I’m guessing you have a low turnover rate, Long employees. D’oh!

[00:40:07.31] spk_5:
Yeah, we D’oh! If you look at just the leadership team, um, see, how many years of experience, including if you could mind with the, um 40 46 years across five people. So I’ve been with your English over 18 and then I have Ah, our chief development officer is, But I’ve worked with her for 10 years.

[00:40:13.78] spk_2:
Are key

[00:40:26.81] spk_5:
of events for 10 years, are our senior vice president of marketing communications For six and 1/2 years and a new person to the team has been, uh, any personal leadership team.

[00:40:49.60] spk_1:
Okay, but those first couple you cited, you know, 10 years, eight years, those there, especially for a chief development officer. You said 10 years for the vice president of development. That’s a That’s a long that. You’re Yeah, Well, you’ve earned it. You’ve earned it. That’s a long tenure. Um, I got to get back to the more, uh, more mechanicals. Although the philosophy is really, really stimulating. Um,

[00:40:59.75] spk_2:
let’s go back to the hiring. What’s what’s the next steps?

[00:41:02.23] spk_1:
Ah, the potential candidate or candidates? A couple have met lots of people throughout the organization. How do you come together and make your decision?

[00:42:20.78] spk_5:
Um, uh, we use the humble, hungry, smart framework on how we talk about people, Not not exclusively. But of course, like many other places, we’ll talk about the skill sets that are involved. Um, we could talk about things like, Oh, this person. They really know how to get razors agile. You know, this person had great demonstrated experience at their past job or she raised, you know, x amount of dollars and Stuart of along, you know, x number of donors or whatever. Uh, but by and large, we keep coming back to the framework of what did you think of not come across as being, you know, humble? Or today you really get an understanding of, um, now that they’re gonna be an attentive listener, how do you think that there are their personality will sort of match up with others who are gonna be on this team. And, uh, and if everybody’s sort of, you know, largely in an agreement that that that that the persons home hungry, smart and has a good background to them and demonstrated experience do the job way, pull the trigger and bring them on board?

[00:42:36.43] spk_1:
Do you, as CEO, have ah, right of veto or you’re just You’re just a member of the team, the way equal to everyone else in these kinds of conversations. Decision, order.

[00:42:59.20] spk_5:
If I tell people that I don’t tell people, I don’t tell vice presidents or other team leaders across the organization who they have to hire, But I do step in and tell them who they should not hire. Like if you know, somebody candidate ends up. Um I am talking with them in a red flag. It’s raised that, uh I don’t I don’t think that they’re that they have all three values for us. Thio work

[00:43:03.37] spk_2:
with to

[00:43:05.40] spk_5:
be able to without dedicating a significant amount of time to get them there. But I think a person’s gonna be

[00:43:13.89] spk_2:
okay. Because because you

[00:43:15.81] spk_1:
do meet individual, you meet individually with every candidate, right?

[00:43:20.24] spk_5:
Yeah. Eventually.

[00:43:22.90] spk_2:
Right? Right. Okay. God, you have the

[00:43:29.84] spk_5:
key to the culture of being being able to bring in just the right people who work, you know, if it succeeds.

[00:44:03.47] spk_1:
Alright, Jamie, I’ve got to take our last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news that you need to be on top of so that you stay relevant, including they are former journalist at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. So they understand the work that you are doing and the community you’re working in, they are at turn hyphen to dot ceo, and I want

[00:44:03.95] spk_2:
to say that the live love

[00:44:04.91] spk_1:
um We’re pre recorded today as I mentioned, so I don’t can’t shut you out by city and state, as I would like to, but, uh,

[00:44:11.75] spk_2:
you know,

[00:44:12.04] spk_1:
you are If you’re listening to the live stream Friday one

[00:44:16.85] spk_2:
o’clock Eastern time, then the love goes out

[00:45:12.11] spk_1:
to you Live. Love, live. Listen, love. Thank you. I’m grateful that you are listening to our live stream and the podcast Pleasantries toe are over 13,000 listeners. However, we fit into your life of your binging at the end of the month. Or if you’re more consistent pleasantries to the podcast audience, I’m grateful that you are with us as well. Thank you so much. We got butt loads more time for your organization’s health, and Jamie burst burst by the way you spelled b e a r s e So looks like Hearst, but with a B. So if you’re looking for him on Twitter, it’s at Jamie Bursts, which is hearse with a B. Um, we were Sometimes I take these brakes and messes me up way. We’re still talking about the hiring, whether you get a veto or no. Okay, so, um, they’re hiring. Process anything more you want to add about that the hiring before we before we move on,

[00:45:14.96] spk_5:
I think we covered it.

[00:45:15.90] spk_2:
Okay, in sufficient detail for people to get get a flavour

[00:45:23.02] spk_1:
of what it’s how this how this works, Um, you know, sort of mechanically and and in the details.

[00:45:27.42] spk_2:
What about evaluation?

[00:45:28.55] spk_1:
You already said You don’t have your end evaluations or maybe you do. But I guess they take on West less weight because there’s there’s there’s routine feedback. Is there a formal evaluation process? How does that work?

[00:46:30.06] spk_5:
Another reason. A formal evaluation process, because we just believe in in AA real time feedback, Asai said. Before it’s, uh, feedback largely comes in, uh, you know, the form of ah, the framework of, ah, being humble, hungry, smart of you asking, getting curious and asking questions of Okay, What? How you manage this project or what you communicated Thio. You know, this person or this donor? Um, I didn’t see that as being very humble. Tell me about that. And, um, you know, here’s here’s how, uh, like, shared in away from my own experiences of where maybe I wasn’t humble and, um, how how I would have handled it differently and, uh, try to give them some coaching and mentoring so they do it different next time around.

[00:46:32.64] spk_1:
Do you meet with every staff member individually?

[00:46:39.60] spk_5:
Uh, Thio give feedback like

[00:46:41.96] spk_2:
that? Yeah,

[00:47:07.76] spk_5:
sometimes. But I’m not always the one in there. Um uh, Scott, everybody on the our leadership team also, you know, living values and being able to coach and mentor others across the organization that, you know, they’re they’re responsible for the staff that were on their teams, but you were necessary. I’m I’m I’m always willing to step in and help catch them alone.

[00:47:14.76] spk_2:
Okay? Okay. Um, I want to go back to high freedom. Does that

[00:47:32.23] spk_1:
include in dealing with the men and the families that you’re working with? Like in terms of problem solving? If there’s a difficulty with the organization or something to do, our staff members empowered to take action or you know, or is it is it? I think I know the answer, but I want to ask it this way. Or is it more bureaucratic? You know the way Ah, typical organization would have to go through Ah, making an exception.

[00:48:35.95] spk_5:
Uh, no. Uh, it also know a centrist bureaucratic It, um it applies to their work out in the field and working with patients and families who have been impacted by this. Um, it goes thio being able to be, um, highly aligned, but sort of but highly aligned but being empowered to take independent action when were highly aligned and understand. Um, the values are highly aligned and understanding what’s most important right now for the organization or what our goals are and every different situation than you have the behind over freedom in order to be able to act autonomously on behalf of the organization. Thio, get the job done. Don’t believe in micro managing by any stretch of the imagination?

[00:48:40.10] spk_1:
No,

[00:50:20.34] spk_5:
it does to our managing others within the organization. Um, I was try to coach them. Uh, sometimes they get you end up in a way that they have a certain vision for their team. Are they have a certain way that they wanna see something that we’re working on get executed. But I will tell them that you know, if you can get people 80% of the way there on executing on your vision, and that’s a massive win That’s huge. Went because they bought in to what your what your vision is, how you’re telling it to them, their understanding, how you’re how you’re communicating to them, and that’s terrific. But if you try to push beyond trying to get from 80% of them, executing on your vision to 100% that really starts to take on a life of micromanaging, exhausting work for you. And eventually that staff member of that team, team members is gonna get resentful and not trusted that they can go out. And, you know, we make their own decisions that we try to, like, pull it way back. Good, solid clarity of like what the goals are, how we be good goals on. You know what the mission is, how he behaves, what’s most important right now. What are our most important goals in any given time frame? If we have good clarity around that sort of step back and let people, um can’t manage themselves and strive to tea, leaves the mission and hit our goals without being micromanaged, that’s Ah, that’s another element of hi freedom.

[00:50:34.06] spk_1:
Interesting. Interesting to hear you see that marginal 20% as being counterproductive in the Marshall. 20% meeting expectations. You’re saying 80% instead of 100 becomes counter could become counterproductive.

[00:50:37.60] spk_5:
Yeah, you’re,

[00:50:38.19] spk_2:
uh

[00:50:39.08] spk_5:
you know, a company that’s making widgets. You’re looking at spreadsheets and things like that of like, Okay, our best radio return is like when we’re selling this many witches. But if we sell like too many, then our return on investment starts to drop off their He’s got diminishing returns. It’s what they call it and

[00:50:54.91] spk_2:
that you’re

[00:50:55.46] spk_5:
in a company that’s making widgets. So yeah, I would say that that’s, um that’s sort of the cut off for us. Uh, you know, we’re talking about organizational health

[00:51:05.65] spk_2:
here.

[00:51:13.42] spk_5:
You’re trying to really get them thio be 100% for for your vision than just gonna set you up for failure Way.

[00:51:19.16] spk_1:
Just have, like, four minutes or so left.

[00:51:21.21] spk_2:
Let’s let’s talk a little about your virtual employees. What do you

[00:51:25.18] spk_1:
do? Dio ensure that the’s er that HHS is instilled in nam and that they’re getting the feedback that everyone who’s ah on site is getting on and make them feel part of the team. What do you do for the virtual folks?

[00:52:33.10] spk_5:
Sure. Well, one is that we have, ah, weekly staff meeting that everybody gets on video so we all can see each other and communicate with each other while we’re doing some team building through that. A zay were talking earlier that one of the things that we do in staff meeting is it’s such a small thing, but it’s so empowering. So we take not even five minutes of staff meeting. We do something that’s called hashtag. You’re proud and through that, every every staff meeting that we have, there’s three people on staff. Go and then the next week, another three people will go, But each person calls out somebody else across the organization for living our values until a story about you know why they think that person is being humble home. We’re smart and it’s really empowering, and it draws people in no matter you know where they are. You know, whether their offices in yeah, Sacramento or where I am in Boston and

[00:52:34.88] spk_2:
we’re

[00:53:46.06] spk_5:
all points in between. A couple of other things that we do is there’s a tool that’s out there now. That sort of market is for internal communication is a slack, and it sort of Ah, people haven’t heard about it. It sort of a cross between Google chat Facebook A little bit for no internal communications divided up by channel. And you got to put you in certain little fun things in there. Like you get these, uh, a little energies and thumbs up smiley faces for different messages that you put in a different channels that better there. So we make it sort of, um, interactive in that way. Uh, that’s just happens to be, you know, where the world going with social media. So we kind of embrace that, and that helped draw people together. And the byproduct is also it takes all of this internal communication off emails focus externally, focus your email externally without it getting all clocked up with all of these internal messages that people get TC on. Yeah, at nauseam. So that’s just one of the tools in Red Show way. Help build that strong team cohesion. No matter where people are across the organization. And, uh, a few others. But I know that we’re pressed for time, but you know what? One other.

[00:53:51.08] spk_2:
Yeah, go ahead. One other thing that

[00:53:52.28] spk_5:
I would say is that

[00:53:53.17] spk_2:
my door is

[00:54:03.09] spk_5:
always open. I held, um, office hours every day for anybody that wants the common and chat things out of how they can be more feel more connected to others in the

[00:54:17.04] spk_1:
That’s a great That’s a great tactic. Office hours every day. Open office, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. We could still have a couple

[00:54:25.94] spk_2:
minutes, right? Yes. Get Yeah, we have a couple minutes left. Um, let’s, uh you mentioned

[00:54:27.79] spk_1:
before over communication did we did really talk about that. And we just didn’t label what we were talking about in the at the time over communicating.

[00:54:36.36] spk_5:
Sure. We could talk about that. It’s It’s, um it’s critical. Um, I also got, um, not from

[00:54:44.12] spk_1:
so we didn’t We didn’t do that. Okay, let’s we got about two minutes. You go ahead.

[00:56:34.43] spk_5:
Sure. That also comes from the the advantage by Patrick Ngoni and actually didn’t, uh, people sometimes don’t hear your message until they hear it for the seventh time. And, um, I don’t think I really realized that until the seven time that I read that book. Yeah. What it means is that sometimes leaders are or the chief reminding officer and reminding people about, um of of the values of reminding people about the mission to reminding people what’s most important right now. So t over communicate that in different ways, whether that’s putting it a male or a black message or by phone or video, face to face or by video they’re having heard the same message in multiple platforms helps it to sink in in a way that people really understand it. Um, I also said before about you know, that commitment of asking, clarifying questions like, Okay, what I hear you saying is this is that what I’m hearing and that gives people a chance to clarify it and get what’s being said straightened out? And we also have a role, a swell, that John silence dissent, meaning, you know, for having for having a meeting and talking about all these things on. I’ll say like, Okay, we good to move on. And, um, not everybody speaks up and says Yes, yeah, I’m good, Yeah, no concerns for me. Um, then we treat it like descent because that way it allows people to commit thio a decision that’s being made and it sort of invites them like Okay, you know, if you’re not speaking up. Done. You know what, Um, what’s on your mind with you bothering you?

[00:56:41.13] spk_1:
What’s holding you back? Okay, Silences, descent. All right, All right. Jamie Burst. We gotta leave it there. I really enjoyed this. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[00:56:45.98] spk_5:
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

[00:56:58.20] spk_1:
My pleasure. Jamie Bursts, CEO of zero. The end of prostate cancer. Zero is at zero cancer dot or GE and he’s at Jamie Bursts. There’s excellent. Thank you. Zero proud hashtags are proud. Uh, next week, build your grantmakers relationships, which is the panel that I hosted back when there was a foundation center. Of course, now they’re merged with guidestar. But when there was the foundation center, I hosted a panel there, and we’ll hear it next week. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com

[00:57:26.47] spk_2:
Bye, Cougar Mountain Software

[00:57:45.33] spk_1:
Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Lee Woods is the line producer.

[00:58:28.78] spk_4:
There’s the music shows. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. You With Me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for June 7, 2019: Disrupt Unconscious Bias & Your Normal Is My Trigger

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Joe Shaffner, Minal Bopaiah & Sara Boison

Joe Shaffner, Minal Bopaiah & Sara Boison: Disrupt Unconscious Bias
Our panel encourages you to dive deep into your own biases and how they influence you and your brand. Then deconstruct and disrupt those you no longer want. They’re Joe Shaffner at International Center for Research on Women; Minal Bopaiah with Brevity & Wit; and Sarah Boison from Communities In Schools. (Recorded at 19NTC)





Barbara Grant & Eve Gourley: Your Normal Is My Trigger
Accept without blame that your normal is not everyone’s. This panel helps you recognize differences and manage across generations. They’re Barbara Grant with Crux Consulting Consortium and Eve Gourley from Food Lifeline. (Also recorded at 19NTC)





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View Full Transcript
Transcript for 442_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190607.mp3 Processed on: 2019-06-07T19:22:27.262Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…06…442_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190607.mp3.778427195.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/06/442_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190607.txt xero Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of trick Otello, Sis, if you split hairs with me over whether you missed today’s show disrupt unconscious bias. Our panel encourages you to dive deep into your own biases and how they influence you and your brand, Then deconstruct and disrupt those you no longer want. They’re Joe Shoffner at International Centre for Research on Women Minal, BOPE IA with brevity and wit, and Sarah Boysen from communities in schools that was recorded at 1990 si. Then you’re normal is my trigger except without blame that you’re normal is not everyone’s. This panel helps you recognize differences and manage across generations. They’re Barbara Grant with Crux Consulting Consortium and Eva Corley from Food Lifeline that’s also recorded at 19 and TC Tony stay too pissed in Brussels, Responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuant by witness Deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers regulars wetness cps dot com My goodness and by text to give mobile donations made easy text NPR to 444999 I got that one already is enough. Here are Joe Shoffner, Middle back-up Aya and Sarah Boysand from 1990. Si. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 1990 Si. That’s the non-profit Technology Conference. We’re in Oregon, Portland, Oregon, at the convention center. This interview, like all our 1990 si interviews, is brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising. Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me are Joe Shoffner, Mental BOPE Aya and Sarah Boysen. Joe is senior communications specialist at the International Centre for Research on Women. Excuse me. Mental is principal consultant at brevity and wit, and Sarah is director of digital strategy for communities in schools. Welcome everyone. Thank you for your pleasure. Have you, uh, we’re talking about your seminar topic, which is disrupting unconscious bias as we grow our brand. Uh, let’s start down at the end. Sarah. What? Before we unpacked What? Unconscious biases? What What’s what’s the trouble? What are non-profits not getting right about growing their brand that you wish they would? Well, I would say a lot of non-profits are really struggling Teo identify where some of the problems are coming from. In terms of things like hiring a promotion in terms of the communications, I think a lot of organizations are starting to see that diversity isn’t something that just could be thrown around is a buzzword. But it’s something that they actually have to embody within the organizations, and from there it usually flows through the word. Okay, mental. You want to add to the headline on the leave? Um, yeah. I mean, I agree with everything. I think I’m sorry agree with everything, Sarah said. And I think in this day and age, brands do need to be very conscious of diversity and equity and inclusion if they want to have a brand that’s still relevant. I think thie millennial general generation is probably the most inclusive generation of it’s time. America is more diverse than it’s ever been. And if you want to appeal to all segments of the United States, if you want to be a global NGO, and in the end, the in the era of social media where a misstep can go viral, it’s really important that brands protect themselves by having an awareness of how unconscious bias could have affected their brand. Okay, Joe, you want to lead us in a swell, I think the one point, I would add is, is that unconscious bias within a browned is both individual and group. So in order to work as a team to tackle unconscious biases that come out in your brand, you have to alert look internally as an individual and as a team. Okay, let’s define unconscious bias. What do we mean? Sure, So they’re going to throw it to me since I have the degree in clinical psychology. And so I’m technically supposed to be able to do this. So it’s It’s easier with slides and with visuals, to be fair, if you are a picture of the brain. But I’m gonna I’m gonna do this via just speaking and see how this goes. Basically, within the human brain there, two systems of thought. There’s automatic thinking, and there’s deliberate thinking. Dahna condiment talks about this and his work thinking fast and slow. I prefer the words automatic and deliberate, because you can have delivered thinking that is fast as well. And unconscious bias happens because thie automatic thinking pathways, which air dictated by the limbic system, which contains the amygdala and the hippocampus. And those are areas that are really responsible for creating emotion and creating memories tend to fire together. And what that allows you to do is to make quick split second decision. So, for example, if you’re in a dark room and you you walk in and it looks like there’s a snake on the floor, you would recoil. Now, if you turn on the lights, you may find that that snake is actually a rope. And so you’ve based your data, your based your reaction on what your brain has perceived and made a split second decision that’s protected yourself. We’re talking about such decisions about people. Yeah, so if people in groups, yeah, so if you are not exposed to people of a certain race. But all of your data has been for movies that portray that raised negatively you may have if you meet somebody of that race, your initial reaction, maybe based on poor data at the same time, that automatic system can protect you. So I used to be a rape crisis counselor in a previous life, and a lot of women have said that they had the sense they had a flag that said maybe this guy was dangerous, but they didn’t want to be biased against them. And that’s not the time to just go against your bias is what we really talked about in our session was that if you want to mitigate biases, you have to start employing that more deliberate system of your brain. And bring your unconscious biases, too, your awareness, and really start to look at whether you’re basing those decisions on accurate data or not. If you’re a woman who’s in a position where you physically feel threatened, you need to get yourself out of that space first. But then reflect back as to whether your fear was based on something realistic or whether it was based on a past memory that was maybe inaccurate for that situation. Or worse, just something culturally that understood. Yeah, and grossly. It could be grossly and actually wrong, and but it it could be really accurate. And it it’s up to every individual to really do the work to explore where their biases air coming from and be able to respond from from their deliberate thinking from their from their executive functioning part of the rain. Rather then just that primal urge of their brain. Okay. And then Sarah on I may even be asking youto repeat what already said, But I’m trying to I’m processing this. And you all have been thinking about this for months. Relate this back now to brand, please. Yeah. So in terms of the brand, I mean one thing I can say that, at least in my organization, that community schools, what we’re doing is we’ve implemented diversity equity and inclusion work. So what we were doing is we’ve identified a taste of the basic level that there’s some work that we need to do organizationally, right? So we recognize that as we work with one point 6,000,000 students across the country, that each of us individually may, you know, we all hold biases, and it’s up to us to do that work to ensure that we’re able to better serve our students and better understand their circumstances. So what is happening at my organization is that our board of directors is actually mandated that we implement d I work across all of our affiliates across 26 states and D. C. So there’s work that’s being done from the top down and also from the bottom up. So what we’re doing as well is that we’re we’re going to our affiliates and we’ve actually way have affiliate representatives that are on a d. I planning team. And what they’re doing is they’re actually creating a tool kit, and they’re creating actual work flow for the entire organisation for us to follow in order for us to better serve the students in our community. So this sounds like I mean, even though I asked you about Bram, this sounds like mission. I mean, it goes right to it, really is more of your work and your what your mission is. Absolutely. I feel that if you can’t address a lot of the things that go on in terms of diversity equity inclusion, I almost feel like you really can’t as an organization served. You know, many of the populations that way Do you want to help? So d I needs to be identified as a core value of the organization? Absolutely. It’s time for a break. Pursuant. The art of First Impressions had a combined strategy, analytics and creative to captivate new donors and keep them coming back. It’s all about donorsearch acquisition. It’s on the listener landing page. You want to make that terrific first impression so that your donors stay with you. They’re attracted to you and they stay retention as well as attraction. You’ll find it at Tony dahna. I’m a slash pursuing with a capital P for please. Now back to disrupt unconscious bias. I mean for a non-profit. Hold on. I want to find out what his communities in schools do. What’s the work? S o Right now we serve one point 6,000,000 students across the country. Essentially, how it’s structured is we play psycho. Nader’s within schools. So we work with school district and schools and state offices. We have sight coordinators in schools that helped afield. Resource is between the schools in the community to help the students and their families. Okay, pulling together resource is from local communities. You’re in 26 states. Yes, we’re 26 states in D. C. Okay. Community resource is for the benefit of students. Yes, So it is. It’s academic and community resource is so good example would be like if a student comes in and their and their families facing homelessness instead of the student putting that responsibility on the family and the student, the site coronated will help so one identify what some of their needs are and work with those in the school as well as some of the folks in the community to ensure that the students able to get the resources that they need so they could focus on school. We’re gonna know I was just going to put a finer point on Sarah’s comments and say that you know, for non-profits how you execute your mission is your brand. And so that’s why I like if there’s bias and how you’re executing your mission, that is a reflection of your brand reputation than in the space and goes back to, you know, how do you want to be known in your community in the country? Okay. Okay. Um, so from your session description, your dive deeper into our own biases on how they influence us on the point being made that we’re not only talking about organizationally, but also individually, Um, how did they influence us? I mean, it could be positive. My my thinking is that it’s I mean, I think, is that it’s mostly negative. But it could be positive, I don’t know. Or is it all negative? How did the job your turn? How does how does how did these biases influence us? What’s don’t go by me? What’s the consensus of the pattern? Sure. So I think one thing mental untouched on was the snake versus rope on DH. You know, applying that to Ah non-profit setting where it shows up is actually because there’s so many things going on at one time that you have to make decisions quickly so you don’t have a lot of time. It feels like to process and to think about these decisions that you’re making so to an extent, what we wanted to focus on them. The session was how to bring that out and discuss it in an honest way with those in your organization and also focus on who is in the room who is at the table discussing this because you do get caught in these cycles sometimes of having the same people making these decisions, whether it’s events, whether it’s what photos you’re choosing. Teo, display the Bowler hat brand. What project you’re taking on and a great way to mitigate that is bringing other people in from different backgrounds, different perspectives, different views and how you work together to come up with solutions of that. Create that change. Okay, the how and the who Let’s talk about some of the house. How do you bring it up? So one of the things that we’re working on at I c e w is the International Centre for Research on Women is an event checklist. So we’re aware that with all these quick decisions we’re making, sometimes you bypass the thought process and how to, uh, figure out how who’s on the panel for the events on DH? The checklist brings into mind, um, you know, who are you bringing in for the planning stage? I think that was the most important point that we came out with is who’d you bring in the room? And then you look at, um what photos? For the invitations you look at, you have considerations of who’s on the panel. So, for example, if you have a panel on talking about youth and there’s no one represented who is in the category of youth, right, so, uh, kind of bringing all those perspectives to the table. Okay, Sarah, anything you can add about who should be in this conversation? Yeah, I’d liketo piggyback on what Joe was talking about. So for me, like working in the use sector, what I’ve seen is a lot of times you have people who are making decisions that, uh, that that impact other people. And one of the things that I really want to challenge, not only just ourselves, but other non-profits do is to really allow the people that we’re serving to be the experts on their lives like, yes, we have the resources and the tools to maybe empower them, um, to shift course of change. But I really do feel that we’re doing ourselves a disservice by not bringing the people that we serve into the conversation to be a part of the solution. And that’s one of the things that including when their school age Absolutely that’s do-it-yourself. Absolutely. And I for us, I mean, there’s definitely a perception that young people aren’t ready for leadership right now, but many of them are already leaders in serving in their communities, and many of them are very well versed in what’s going on and some of the problems at their peers phase. So we’ve actually found it to be incredibly powerful toe bring in students early on in the process. When we’re doing the programs, when we’re doing projects and asking them, Hey, what is going on? And what do you feel would actually be a viable solution? And we actually just did a student in it. Evasion Challenge in Las Vegas and we had four students. Three of them were from Charlotte, and 11 was from Michigan. And they actually presented ideas that they worked with on a student team to help mitigate some of the issues that are happening at their school on. It was a great opportunity, one for adults to kind of just sit back and listen to these students. But it was also another opportunity where we were actually e-giving Students of resource is to be able to actually create change in their own neighborhood mental about how to raise your advice, how to raise this in in your organization. Yeah, it’s an interesting question because I think it’s sort of organically being raised in a lot of non-profits right now because, like I said, the younger generation of employees who are coming in are very aware of this and really wanted When you have an intergenerational office, Yeah, and and I think, really, when we’re talking about building diversity, equity inclusion when we’re talking about building inclusive cultures, what we’re talking about, his power dynamics. And so you really need to be able to study power to be successful in any diversity and inclusion initiative. And that means working with leadership. If leadership is not bought in that diversity and inclusion needs to be a core value of the organization, it is unfair to put the burden of change on people who have lesser power. And and that’s really critically important for organizations. Understand, once leadership is bought in, then it needs to be like any other operations or business unit where there is actual commitment in time and money and metrics for progress. How do you get this buy-in What? So much of the power is white and male. Yeah. Andi, let’s assume the leadership is because a lot of it is not all but a lot is Yeah. How do you How do you go to the CEO? The white male CEO and try to get this D I core value buy-in from? Yeah, the guy whose power he perceives is being threatened. Yeah, so not assumes. Powers xero some, but But ah, lot of guys do. Yeah. So how do you overcome that? Yeah, so that’s a big question. So I’m gonna take it in multiple ways. Got two and 1/2 minutes now we have more than yeah. No, that’s a really good question. And I think it gets to their multiple approaches. First of all, like somebody died. So I would not recommend somebody like me because I’m much better at strategy than I am as an executive coach or facilitator. I think it takes, um, Riel s o. I worked with a lot of diversity inclusion. Consultants are facilitators, and they’re exceptional at their ability to have a conversation at that level That doesn’t trigger people’s defensive isn’t Isn’t this almost essential? Tohave an outsider facility trained facilitator. Sarah, you’re shaking. Did you did you use a a facilitator? Yeah. So currently way Do bring in outside facility. Other conversations I’ve had with other guests. They’ve said that it’s almost essential because it’s doing conversation. Could break down. Yeah, rapidly. And you need you need sort of an outside there. But, I mean, I think of a diversity inclusion consultant almost like a family therapist, like their job is to give you that outside perspective and help you to see things in a new way on DH, then within, like, sort of having those conversations. There’s multiple things that you could speak to. Some people like to go the fear and avoided through, which is what I mentioned before about brand reputation. You know, if you want your organization to continue to be successful in the 21st century, you need to get on top of this. Bring a Brown. Once gave a talk at Were Human last year, where she said, If you are a leader who is not talking about diversity and inclusion, you will not be a leader in five years from now. And if you are going to talk about it, you were going to mess up and you were going to fall flat on your face and you were going to make mistakes. And you need to learn how to be an evolved enough leader to make public mistakes. And like rumbled through it and get through to the other side. So it takes a lot of it takes a very mature leader to be able to do this. The second part is to make what people like to call the business case, which is There’s research that shows that shone and this is from the for-profit sector. But companies that have diverse product teams have three times as many patents as companies that don’t. So the leveraging diversity will inevitably help your programs, your operations, your bottom line. And that’s really important to know, especially as we live in a more globalized world. I mean, I remember growing up is an Indian American. I didn’t think most of the television and most of the magazines were relevant to me. I didn’t buy any of that stuff. Nobody got my dollars because nobody was marketing to me on the third way is really too, you know, I think that there are enough white men like Joe, and you probably like you, Tony, who are you who are men of conscience? You know who who understand that you shouldn’t. There is a business case to be made, but you should just write this was the right thing to do for God’s. You shouldn’t always have to make the business case to do the right thing. And more importantly, like how, like, Why don’t you want to create a place where you wouldn’t recruit the best talent? You know, like Sara shared an experience today in our session. I’ve had a similar experience of being in organizations where we wanted to give our best. But the lack of an inclusive culture made us leave. And so you’re losing exceptional talent because of unconscious bias or because of your lack of commitment to including creating an inclusive culture. And so if you want to create the best products and services, if you want to have the best programs, if you want to have the greatest impact, this is is absolutely critical to all of those goals. And so diversity Inclusion isn’t something you do because it’s nice. It’s something you do because it’s mission critical and a strategic goal for every organization. I feel like the conversation has been raised to another level just within the past few years, and that may be the result of black lives matter now metoo. More recently, metoo No, because for so many years it was just It’s the right thing to do. But now, on DH, that was unavailing, obviously, to the white power structure, white male power structure, because things weren’t changing. So doing the right thing wasn’t sufficient a za motivation necessary but not sufficient. But now you know we’re so buy-in next level, we’re making the casing in different ways. That you can argue should have been, should not have been necessary. But Aziz said change wasn’t happening. So, you know, making the business case, for instance, Yeah, If you have to bring it, bring it to the bottom line and say you risked relevance, you risked losing talent. Well, I think it’s a communications professional, and other communications professionals here can speak to this. It’s important to speak to the values of your audience, and I think it’s it’s hubris on the part of people who actually care about these things to believe that the other person must think like you in order to be able to enact diversity inclusion initiative. I really think that Dee and I needs to take the same approach that truth campaign took to smoking. They created a multitude of ads, and they basically was like, We’re going to target everybody. We’re going to target everybody based on whatever they care about. And so when you would see the ad, maybe one out of 20 adds spoke to you, but then they got 20 different archetypes that they could speak to. So they weren’t saying, Oh, you have to care about this one thing in order for you to buy into this way of living. And I think diversity and inclusion needs to take that approach that different people are going to be motivated by day, different things. And we need to be able to speak to all of those motivations instead of sort of rank ordering and saying This motivation is better and more noble than this other motivation. I think that’s really judgmental, and it doesn’t move anything forward. Okay, Joe, we haven’t heard from you in a while. What you want to contribute? So, uh, we focused a lot of the session today on, uh, workplace, but I would extend that to say, particularly for white males. Um, this is a conversation that I think needs to be had in the home. A school on the street because of some of the issues that we’re facing. It worked. We bring in tow work. It’s not just something that comes up at work. So it’s something where to have a coffee with someone and and just try to shift perspective a little bit. And there’s in the us in particular is a lot of this attitude of pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Um, which, yes, that’s worked for some. But there are others who don’t start out at the same level where there is race, gender, economic way, same level. But you don’t have the same opportunities, right? Don’t have. You don’t have the power. Yeah, So it I think by avoiding, um, even reflecting on that, that’s where the biases come in. And that’s also where we continue doing the same thing, Um, at work, at home. So it’s like, how do we create that shift? And part of that? Is this through honest, open communication? Ok, uh, we still have, uh, another two minutes or so. Two and 1/2 minutes. What else have you done your panel yet? Yes, you have. Okay, So what else you had 75 minutes with in front of an audience. What else did you talk about? That we didn’t talk about here or more detail that we didn’t go into enough. We got a couple of bones talk about white privilege of fragility. Sametz. Well, actually, actually want anything I want to bring up was we had a bingo card which included some of these terms, but we did have, ah, exercise on privilege. So essentially, we made some statements. Uh, and people would raise their hand if they felt that reflected on them on DH. Keep their hand down if they felt like it didn’t which there’s been a breach has such a sure such as? I have no college student loans. There were some that raised their hand, Some that didn’t, um that one’s a little easier to answer than others. Like I’ve never been bullied. Some might think, Uh, yes, I’ve kind of been believed, but it hasn’t been to the level of what I think. Other people have been bullied. So what we focused on through that was that it’s a little more complex. It’s not binary either, or sometimes the decisions made in those moments, um, are more complicated. And I think That’s kind of what we want to focus on here. Um, so relate this back to white supremacy. Yeah, sure. Um so white supremacy, white power, White power, White privilege. Okay. Yeah, No. So a lot of, for the most part, this is just to reflect on the fact that the privileges are there. I think that’s Ah, it seems simple, but for a lot of there are a lot of people who will not associate themselves with privilege. Or they’ll say, But I grew up in a poor area without reflecting on the fact that maybe someone else of a different skin color or different gender also did. But it’s staggered. So that and this white powers, you say, white privilege. It’s structural. It’s ingrained in our systems and our institutions, um, and and too tow have those conversations. And to create change, we really have to be reflective and admit that they exist. Okay, way. Have another minute left. So let’s, uh let’s give the wrap up sorrow that I asked you to start with you. Have you mind wrapping up what you want to leave people with? I just really want to challenge people to do the hard work of really looking within themselves to identify any bias is that they may have on and just know that it’s a lifelong commitment. I think a lot of people go into it thinking like, Oh, I’m going to do, you know, for three hour sessions this year and I’m going to be woke check, Yeah, and you know, I definitely want to challenge people, not to feel the pressure to be quote unquote woke. I feel like that’s a word a lot of people have been throwing around recently, and I just think that people need to just do the work consistently in order to be able to change their perspective on different peoples in places and things. All right, we’re gonna leave it there. Thank you very much for all three of you. Each of you think they are. Joe Schoffner, senior communications specialist at the International Centre for Research on Women. Manabu piela, principal consultant at Brevity and Wit, and Sarah Boysen, director of digital strategy for communications for communities in schools. Thank you again. Thank you. Thanks to you for being with Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 1990 sea as non-profit technology conference in Portland, Oregon. This interview. Like all our 1990 si interviews brought to you by, or partners that ActBlue free fund-raising tools to help non-profits making an impact. Thanks for being with us. We need to take a break When you see piela CPAs, it’s in the title. You know what they do? Do you need one? Do you need a new one? If you think you might need help or your tinkering around the edges of maybe changing accountants, check them out. You goto weinger cps dot com. Do your due diligence there, of course, and then pick up the phone. Talk to the partner. Yet each tomb who you know because he’s been on the show twice already and he’s going to be coming back. He’s not high pressure. He’ll explain whether they can help you. All right, that’s the process. Get started at Wagner’s cps dot com. Now time for Tony’s Take two. My video is pissed in Brussels. Yes, uh, manic in piss, and that is what it’s called. I’m not being crude, so if you turned off well, if you were to turn off the volume or shut me down, then there’s no point in me saying Don’t because you’ve already done it. But for those of you were still here, like on the fence. Don’t be offended, because that is what it’s called. There’s a statue in Brussels, Belgium, called manic in piss. Okay, maybe it’s peace in Belgium on these manic and peace, but it’s spelled like this. So, um yeah, so I got I got assaulted. I got assaulted by the little statue. Um, he pissed on me and you can see it. You can see it on the video at tony martignetti dot com and then go to Brussels, Belgium, and get some for yourself. Just keep your eyes in your mouth close. That’s all on DH, that is Tony’s Take two. Let’s do the live. Listen, 11 the, uh And you know what comes after that? So the live love goes out. Thank you for listening. I’m grateful. The live love to those of you listening at, uh, Friday 1 p.m. Eastern time. And whatever time zone you might be in, the love goes out to you and the podcast pleasantries My gratitude to our over 13,000 podcast listeners. Sometimes I wonder why you stay with with all the I don’t know the talking about piss and everything else. But you have you have you still here? So the pleasantries go to you and you should stay. Don’t Don’t wonder why Leave? Leave the wondering and the and the worrying to me about that you just stick around Ana. Now here is from 19 NTC. Your normal is my trigger. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 19 1990 Si. That’s the non-profit Technology Conference 2019. We are in Portland, Oregon, at the convention Center. This interview, like all our 1990 si interviews, is brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. My guests now our Barbara Grant. She is CEO of Crux Consulting Consortium sitting next to me and even Gourlay. She’s director of information systems at Food Lifeline Barbara Evey kruckel. Thank you. Thanks for having a pleasure. Pleasure. Your topic is a little provocative Little bit, er when you’re normal is my trigger unpacking multiple generations and white privilege. Let’s start with you. What? Uh what do we need to know? Give us Give us the headline in the lead. Well, what’s going on here? You fundamentally, you have a normal that you view the world of particular way. That is your way of viewing the world. And you think that’s the real way. That’s the truth of the world on you interact with it like it’s absolute, but you don’t appreciate. You do sort of live your life like other people’s normals of the same as your normal. And that causes real problems for people, particularly in regards to white, privileged white. People think that they’re the normal and they don’t attend to the concerns of people of color, and people of color lose out, significantly weaken all these different measures of public health will show that. But it’s very hard for people to see why their behavior is white people houses impact on people of color, and we’re going to delve into the dynamics, underlie the and really give people some access to engaging with how that their behavior has these negative impacts on the world. Okay, what what are some of these negative impacts? Barber? Well, I think that first we start with generations. And so what we’re trying to look at is that if my definition of What is normal is not your definition of what is normal. So, for example, what should be on a recruitment form like if you’re filling out a job application, should you ask people for their gender or not? So some generations would think? Of course, it’s a recruitment Forman application. You put your gender male, female, other generations would think, Why are you assuming my gender? Other people, other generations might think I don’t want to work here because clearly you’re more interested in my gender than my qualifications for the job. And so part of what we’re looking at is it’s not about one thing being bad or good. It’s about looking just to understand. The fundamentals, like Evil is saying, is that there are different definitions of normal and they shape your judgments and the shape your behaviour. And how can we look at that together? In-kind oven on blaming context because too often when we try to talk across differences, what we find is that people are talking, blaming like I think this is normal. You think that’s normal and I’m judging you is wrong. Uh, without trying to make excuse, though. But if we’re talking about across the generations. It’s what those of us and the older generations were brought up with Your butt s o to not make its use something but we can relearn wear depends on which people you’re tryingto hyre were trainable were trainable. Well, I think I just take it from a perspective of utilization based perspective. If you’re trying to hire people who aren’t exactly like you, it might be useful to understand what they think is normal because those are the people you’re trying to hyre those people are trying to work with. It’s not like what you think is wrong or how you were brought up is wrong. It’s just now there are five generations in the workplace, maybe for the first time in human history, because we’re all living longer and we’re not leaving. And we’re actually caring what younger kids kick would think. And another traditions. Other generations, you know, people who are younger really haven’t been accorded a voice, and people who are older either died sooner or left the workplace. So now we have five generations, all of which have been shaped by different understandings of what’s normal and so part of what we’re trying to do is to say these air who were working with on purpose. And so how do we create a workplace that is inclusive and gets the job done that we want? E. What is this normal that we’re talking about? If everyone’s normal is different or their cohorts that so you just coalesce around sort of more or less together. But But as an individual, what’s what goes into my normal? What goes into your normal what? What’s the normal? What are we talking about? Yeah, because you don’t you don’t think about it. It’s like you wake up in the morning and sort of put on your normal right. What is it? The world just seems to be to you a particular way. And the way that it seems to you isn’t necessarily the same way it seems. Other people want me to think about it. I mean, I don’t get too conceptual, but it’s an interesting talking to delve into right, like the context of your world and the content of your world are different things. If you’re a man, you have a view of the world in an expectation of what public safety feels like So it’s you know, too. Am your your friend’s house. You don’t call for a cab. Gonna walk home like it’s an hour. Like as a man, you have a view of whether that’s safe or not, and you’ll have your own opinion of it. If you’re a woman, you’ll have a very different view of that. Now there’s no Is there a reality or whether it is or isn’t safe to walk home? No, there’s no actual like, objective measure of what safety looks like, But I’m a lot of people don’t really understand it. Don’t appreciate that. They do have these. These contexts they view the world through. When you actually start attending to them, you realize that it’s not just like a couple of things. You have this entire world view on this entire perspective that informs everything about your existence, and you’ve probably never thought about it. Once you start thinking, you start finding things that you wouldn’t choose to believe. You know you you have come to believe that based upon experiences that you’ve had and lessons that you’ve learned and you pick up these ideas and you know it’s really good work to do that reflection figured out because it’s not just about race. I mean, it certainly has an impact on race, but it can affect your relationships that can affect your success in business. Your coworkers, like everything that you do in you, your life is in form. But this context and doing the work of digging into it’s really important. We like to look at it from levels in your workplace. In your non-profit. There are things that people you’re trying to attract, people you’re trying to retain professional development, how fast people are promoted, what’s appropriate use of technology in the workplace, What’s appropriate professional behavior, what’s appropriate communication, all of these things of what is appropriate in the workplace, these air. What you think is normal is common sense, and so, but that normal common sense is different, according to these different five generations. And we think it’s pretty funny because we catch ourselves all the time saying, Oh, I guess I thought I just what I thought right? But But it’s not funny when it happens in a space where the dominant normal gets to decide. Like I might think, it’s funny that you think that, but if you are in the dominant position, then that’s what it is. It’s gonna happen. So part of what we try to do is to just open up the conversation so that its future oriented decisions, instead of how we’ve always done it in the past. I had a panel last year at NTC, and, uh, it was related to this topic, and the subject of job descriptions came up, and it was the use of the word professional. You know, a professional makes makes a professional appearance. Yeah, well, that exclude, I think the guests. It was a panel of, I think there were three think there were three. And it was, I think, was Raja Agarwal on everything. He was sitting next to me and he said, So that excludes everybody with dreadlocks in a white privilege world. Those are not professional. So does that exclude everybody who’s black because their hair is different and you know, so that’s where that dominant. But the perspective is different than a note. A new miracle perspective. Yeah, but just to use the word professional, I mean, it’s an office. I do want people to be professional, but then, you know, professional appearance. You know that’s different than comporting yourself as a professional. You don’t even need to say professional. In the job description, you can consult season, think out of an interview. So it’s fun when you start scratching away at that word like professional like, What does it mean to be profession? Doesn’t mean, like no skilled at using office communication tools for understanding. I was 14 XL, but doesn’t mean where’s a shirt and tie e mean it does mean those things, but unless you actually do the work of unpacking it, you don’t know what you mean. And it could be really detrimental to people like my own personal experience. I’m originally from Ireland. Dahna immigrated United States and was about 20 because I immigrated. I interrupted my college experience, and I never actually finished college. But a lot of job descriptions will say, you know, college degree required, and that’s that’s an assumption that people make about, like hiring that that’s a normal for people that if you’ve been to college, you’re there somehow qualified or somehow more capable of doing a particular job. Now I like, almost finished going. I was like one semester away from getting done and I have no regrets about coming to United States like that was absolutely the best decision I made. It was totally worth giving up, called my degree for. But you just got to really take the time to really investigate what you really mean by what you say because it has an impact on people and those impacts show and they’re often invisible. I think if you talk to people, United States, no one’s ever well, very few people will actually claim to be racist or will endorse racist perspectives. Or, you know, it’s very, very rare to find someone who’ll do it. If we do find them, we isolate them pretty quickly. But racism’s vivid and clear it. She was really clearly in the statistics. So how does it keep happening, like word of these, these negative influences come from. You have to be able to look beyond the surface in order to see that, and that’s where this but this work is about. I think what’s really important about the generations conversation, why we’re using this as a vehicle for talking about privileges, that this is a fun and accessible, an easy way to get into this conversation is not anywhere near is. Confronting is talking about race. It can be challenging, but generations it’s it’s a It’s a fun conversation right on dure. Your topic is generations and white privilege. So let’s overlay the white privilege to this. But now we’re at a disadvantage. There’s three white folks talking about white privilege. Well, one of the things we found is that oftentimes one of the dominant mentalities is that people of color should help us talk about white privilege because we don’t know how, which is once again, kind of layering a burden there. So part of one of the thing you just said is why people we don’t ever learn to say the word white like that’s because it was normal. Like if you look, if you read a book, a novel, the characters air never described by the color of their skin unless it’s not white because, like so you don’t say, he walked into the station, his skin was pasty, like the underside of a dead halibut. You know instead, But you would say like this. He walked in, She walked in, they sat down. He set down his skin, was dark, like cinnamon ice cream or something like it’s only described if it’s not white. So these are the kinds of things that that why people have to be able to start talking about. And so but no one ever talks about generational differences too much, either. So we tried it. We call it Training wheels is like if if I can try to talk to you across a different generation if I’ve had people come up. I was working with the A different client group last year and someone came up and said, You know, now I understand how to talk to my son, who’s been living in my basement, and I feel like we’ve never been able to talk to each other like I get it. Our definitions of normal are different. You know, there’s a There’s a lot of desire as what we call a part of a week circle. So, like we are all different generations. But we’re part of a family or we’re part of one circle we already identify as though we were just different, whereas across other things, like race or class or other dominant privileges way don’t see ourselves as a wee we see is us and those people. And so part of what we’re trying to do is even within our circle of who we already think is us. How do we talk across differences well and respectfully. And then how do we use that experience to try to talk across these bigger differences that are a little bit more charged? What kind of worker is the two of you doing together? You’re doing work for food, Lifeline Barbara. Yes. So I’m a consultant. I worked with international NGOs, NGOs, local domestic non-profits, and one of my clients for many years has been food lifeline, which is where I met Yves. And so there was even even if it’s even, that’s right. And so so and our work together is been issues around, trying to change a culture within their non-profit and also doing a move and trying to figure out how we do that move in a more inclusive way to this glorious, gorgeous new hunger solution center that they’ve just taken off the ground. And so a lot of my work has been with this system, and so we met, and here we are. Okay, um, and how did this topic Come, Teo, how each of you get drawn to this topic in the concerns. So one of things I’ve been studying since I do work with many non-profits and associations across the country has been this kind of she drops out in there. This this as I worked with years of all stripes and sizes and you’ll find me at six for 62 What I’ve found is that for the last 6 62 5 to 10 years, people have been very anxious about all these generations in the workplace and also about the great retirement fear that all these people are going to retire. We’re gonna have a leadership gap. And so I started studying what that meant to have a generation retire and what the composition was of the domestic and international non-profit in particular Workforce were all these leaders about to leave what was gonna happen with succession planning and became very interesting to see that they didn’t leave and then the next generation. So those easters air, now 26 at the top. And so now there are people in 1/5 generation. So everyone was all like, oh, skies falling is going to be four generations. And then these people are going to leave. They didn’t leave and these guys came. And so it’s a phenomenon. Now that is very interesting. And people are trying to figure out who are you trying to hyre? And it’s a very different mindset of tryingto hyre now when you’re trying to hyre outside of an assumed normal of a generation, and that could be across lots of industries and sectors. So I was drawn to it by my clients who were concerned and also, by finding it very like. It’s an interesting inflection point in our history as a sector time for our last break. Its text e-giving They have the five part email, many course to dispel the myths around mobile giving. You get one part each day it’s over five days soon as you sign up, they start coming. And then four days, Uh, we say four days hence, yeah, in four days hence, right that the right, Yeah, Hence his post post fact, post facto four days. Expos facto of the of the sign up, you get the remaining courses one a day. It’s an average of one per day. One is also the mode and one is also the median as well as the average. That’s what you get per day after you sign up for the course. What you do at by texting npr to 444999 And we’ve got butt loads. More time for your normal is my trigger. You baby. How about you? Barbara knows me from Food Lifeline and in my work, I’m the director of information systems for Food Lifeline. And what you do in that role is not only manage the system, but also the Iast systems. All the databases that base are works. I’m involved in every aspect of the organizations activity, right from our entry level staff and our new stuff right up to the executive team and then the CEO. So I cross the generations. Anyway, when we started talking about doing this the session together, some of the real issues that I have in my work came up in our discussions, and we really got into them and use this methodology to address those concerns. And we actually cover some of this in the presentation. And it became not just an opportunity to talk about what we love, what we what we care about, but actually to develop food lifelines business as well. So it’s really, really become really engaged in. It’s really become part of our work. Um, okay, you say, in your description, used the framework of generational understanding and predictable triggers to have deeper conversations. I paraphrased a little bit. But what is the general generational understanding of predictable triggers? Is that first of all, is that one that one one of the processors, too? So one of the things that we’ve found is that there are some predictable triggers that will show up across generations. For example, if we say Oh, you know, some of those people are so entitled there’s a whole set of people in the room that will not and laugh and say, I know you’re talking about in a whole other set of people in the room who will feel like the mute button just happened and disrespected and turned off, or one of our other favorites is when someone says, Well, this is the way we’ve done it successfully for the past 10 years and they think that. And so I have now sealed the point and half of the other people in the room think, and so it must be a relevant. And so some of the things that I feel like the most normal thing in the world for you to say someone else receives, like like you just said something completely different. There’s a very real world challenge that I have with this with regard to training and you software. So if I had, like, a new tool like any of the vendors here at this conference, if I had their suffering, if I take this out to the staff, it’s okay. We got this great new tool. It’s going to be awesome. It’s gonna make a big difference in your work. There’s two kinds of responses I’m going to get from older people, you know, boomers and maybe Gen Xers. You’re going to say, Okay, we’re going to training, which means we have to hire a trainer. We’re gonna have a training day and a reason to calm. We’re going for coffee and bagels and everyone going to sit in chairs and listen to the training, and then we’ll go through it. When we’re done, you’re going to find her and you take a binder to death you sent in your desk and okay, you’re trained. Now go and use the software, which means no one’s trained and they just sort of sit there and stare at the screen now. But when I when I try to train people who are younger, like millennials and sisters, it’s an entirely different model on approach. They don’t need that. What they need is give me a can account. Let me access the sulfur and sit down with me for like an hour and show me the basics and then go away would be available. I want access to the knowledge base online. I want to able to watch videos on the Web site. A chat room for users is great, and it’s an entirely different model of training. And my real challenge with that is that in order to train those easters in the millennials how to use the software, which is really what I need to do because they’re the ones that are gonna be using it anyway, I have to convince the leadership that it’s okay and that it’s safe to do that. So we do the training day, we forget about it, and we trained this Easter’s. It’s that there’s a lot of different generational challenges in the workplace that we have to go. Um, but I feel like way diving into the depths of this. I mean, I feel like we’re talking around it a little bit. Are we? Are we getting to the meat of the real issues here? Well, we’re getting to the middle of a generational issue. Just be circum superficial. So one of the most important things Tony is that is just the fundamental except acceptance that you might have a different normal, that it might guide your worldview like Eve’s even example there was and then to say, Okay, so then what? What do I do if my normal is this other thing? But once you fundamentally accepted that it’s different than thinking. Well, those people are idiots, and they should just do this thing or everybody knows, or common sense. People leave that stuff behind, and then they approach the issue like, Well, then how do you do it across five generations? And that’s the attitude where we can then begin to talk about privilege and dominant privilege, because many times, if people say well, you know you’re white So therefore you’ve inherited all of the benefits of being white, and then a person of color has not. There’s all kinds of stuff that goes off in people’s minds like, Well, I’m not racist and it’s not my fault. And I worked as hard as the next person, and it’s all defensive, defensive, defensive. It’s not curious, like if we go back to the other part where we have with generations, where people are like Okay, people have different definitions of normal, what do we do next? That’s curious. That’s like saying we’re we and we have to do something forward. But when we get into issues that are more charged and that are more layered with blame and oppression and dominance, then people generally defend and any kind of diversity training or an attempt to do that generally ends up with people often feeling worse than they felt before and more blamed and more isolated. So part of what we’re trying to do is to bring these two things together and to say, if you can learn this way to move forward with curiosity, what if we took those same tools into these conversations and to say wow your experience of being a woman in the workforce is very different of being a man in the work force or your experience of being cyst. Gendered is very different of my experience of being trans or your experience of being a black woman. Professional manager Leader is very different from mine of being a white woman, professional manager, leader Like what? I work for Microsoft for 10 years and at one point in the building, I was often the only woman in the whole huge restroom. And I would get startled if I saw another woman in the restroom because it was so unused to there being another woman in the building, you know, super different, then going to the theatre where women will wait for, you know, 15 minutes and then I walk in and out of the of the restrooms, right? And so So this is just something to start noticing that your experience is different and if you can fundamentally just accept that without blame, then you can say, OK, what is the workforce we want of the future? And how do we acknowledge that our experiences have been different? Someone may have had a glass escalator and somebody else has been clawing through a ceiling. But once were here together in this organization or in this moment in history, How do we lean towards each other with curiosity? Even you mentioned earlier? I think he said some of the physical manifestations of this among the people who are not the elite in the privileged. Yeah. Oh, our sound like you were referring to research of physical physical manifestations of this in terms of health outcomes. Yeah. Yeah. So, like life acceptance E on DH infant mortality or 22 rates. You can really see health outcomes on people of color in United States. What? We would actually we’re just setting this. Yes, we were talking about the impact of red lining on communities of color. Um, throughout the sort of last century, people color, black people couldn’t buy houses in neighborhood hoods and the weapon looking buy houses. And if people did buy houses in those neighborhoods, white people would leave. And judging the price of the property, this isn’t long term impact on the ability of their children to go to college or, you know, be set up for life. And so you can actually check? Was it like net and come or no wealth for for people, white people have a lot of black people I think is actually about xero. On average, across the population is a really impact on people’s lives and immeasurable. We still have another five minutes or so together. What else can we say about this topic? One thing that I think is really important for me, for your listeners and non-profits is like Take a look at all of the issues you have in your organization. Like what’s holding you back in good terms of growth, that every step of the way you’re going to find some touch of technology and each of those things. I think that’s a contemporary phenomenon. This is this is the era that we live in, and if any of those areas, if you investigate, I bet you find generations underlying those conversations. This is this is not just like an abstract thought exercise around understanding privilege. This is very riel way have, ah, my organization. We’re dealing with a challenge right now. Unlike who makes decisions about process about system, Wei have many experienced people who might be sort of boomers or Gen Xers have been trained, and they’ve learned their skills at a time whenever technology wasn’t a major part of their work. They’re now dealing with that migration to a system that’s very much technology based there, having to get on databases if they’re fundraisers they’re dealing with, like online giving an email and that kind of stuff ability. Younger people who are native in that in that world and they’re coming in wanting to participate, expecting different systems, to be available to them and then not having access to that expertise. It’s challenging. I think we’re going to see in a lot of non-profits shift from expert expert lead programs, toe having technology and performance management systems and business intelligence systems driving management for organizations. There’s a major cultural shift happening in the realm of technology. You’re gonna have to understand how that impacts in the community and the culture of your organization or to be able to deal with it. And one of the things I was I’d say that builds right off of what you talked about about digital natives, one of the one of the huge questions that’s happening right now in our culture in this country is, What does it mean to be native? And what does it mean to be an immigrant or a refugee? And who do we let in? What does that mean? Toe let in and when we look a technology across generations, there’s a concept of at one point people became digital natives. And that’s somewhere in the middle of the millennial generation, where you were born into a system where you had rights and you had privileges and you understood the language. And often when I’m working with people with generations, I’ll say, What does it mean to be a native citizen of a country? And so people will say what you have rights, You know where your addresses and even comes down to, you know, the right language to use. So first generation children well often have to inform. Their parents know you don’t have to say that to school or a siren doesn’t mean that they start interpreting the culture for their parents. And so it’s the same thing with digital native kids who basically interpret the culture for us and say, Oh, no, let me fix it for you. Just hand it over and so but this whole idea of understanding what it means to be in a land a digital land in which you are not native, in which you feel anxious where you feel like things, are at risk, your privacy is at risk. Your data is at risk. You don’t know what you’re doing. You feeling that and allowing people to have some time to think about that generationally. It’s slightly safer. But then it it it rolls back around to say So. What does that mean when we think about who has rights and privileges in our whole society, and what does that mean? And how are we translating that with each other and thinking about, for example, in public education, when your children are your English speakers and the parents may speak primarily another language? How do we think about is our system in English only system in school? Or do we think if we really want family engagement, we have to reach across that in some way? We’ve to begin to think differently. So a lot of the things that we’re talking about with generations and technology while we’re here, you know what the anti unconference and we both have technology backgrounds. And so he’s There are people to some extent, but we also are, you know, we are. You know, Eva and I are not exactly the norm in many other ways in our lives as well. And so we have the experience of not being the dominant norm in a space. And so we bring that to this conversation, not just to say that we’re white people, so we know everything about people of color instead, what we’re saying is that we’re white people and we understand what we’ve taken for granted as the dominant normal. And and we’re trying to figure out a way for people to have conversations that doesn’t involve blame and separation. We’re often times it’s like what I call the diversity sidecar, where you take all the people of color and organization. You put them on the diversity committee, and you kind of sideline them from the main business, right? Right. And so instead, what we’re trying to talk about is what if we were all You know what I call that? I call that divers Committee. Yes, they’re not. They’re not doing diversity for the organization. They are a showpiece committee that is diverse. I call that the divers committee and many of my colleagues who are amazing engineers or consultants or leaders or architects or artists. They’re not invited first to be on the top engineering or architect or artist committee. They’re invited to be on the diversity committee as an assumption because there are people of color. And so part of what I think we have to do is to begin talking about this because it’s not just because what we want to do is tow have organizations and a society where people are able to bring their best expertise into the space and we can talk about it. We’ve got to leave it there. All right, thank you. She’s Barbara Grant, CEO of Crux Consulting Consortium. And next to her is evey Gourlay, director of Information Systems of Food Lifeline Ladies. Thank you so much. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thanks to both of you, This is non-profit Radio coverage of 2019 the non-profit Technology Conference from Portland, Oregon. This interview, like all brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits Macon impact. Thanks. So much for being with us next week. E-giving Tuesday with Asha Curren It’s not too early to start your planning. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you Find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner’s Deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com and by text to give mobile donations. Made easy text. 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