What does fundraising look like in the stages of a nonprofit’s life: brain child; start up; adolescence; maturity; stagnation; and decline? And how do you avoid the last two? Jeff Sobel, principal of Jeffrey Sobel Consulting, shares his insights. (Recorded at Westchester County AFP’s National Philanthropy Day.)
Are these two compatible? What do their courtship and marriage look like? Charlie Gordy, director of planned giving for Harvard Law School, and Margaret Holman, principal of Holman Consulting, reveal how to make this a match made in heaven. (Recorded at the National Conference on Philanthropic Planning.)
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Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio for friday, december ninth, two thousand eleven we’re always talking about big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. I hope you were with me last week for so me. For pg social media for planned giving kristen schultz, senior vice president for crescendo, shared her research on the best use of social media properties to support your plan, giving program videos, testimonials, blogging, technical information and more. And emily chan, half of our regular legal team from the non-profit and exempt organizations law firm in san francisco, talked about political campaign activity and election earing what can your non-profit do? And how does the irs decide if you’ve crossed the line? What can your employees say under the first amendment this week? We’re fund-raising throughout your life cycle. What does fund-raising look like in these stages of a non-profits life brainchild, startup, adolescence, maturity, stagnation and declined? How do you avoid the last two jeff sobel principle of jeffrey sobel consulting shares his insights. This was recorded at westchester, a f p s national philanthropy day and then marrying major and planned gif ts are these two? Compatible. What does their courtship and marriage look like? Charlie gordy, director of planned giving for harvard law school, and margaret hohman principle of home and consulting, reveal how to make this a match made in heaven. This interview i pre recorded at the national conference on philanthropic planning at tony’s take to roughly thirty two minutes after the hour. My block this week is the next-gen charity interviews from craig newmark, the founder of craigslist and craigconnects to neil strauss, who went undercover in a secret society of pickup artists. There are takeaways for your non-profit from all these interviews, and i’ll talk about a few of them on tony’s. Take to live, tweeting the show this week. Use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation on twitter. Right now, we take a break, and then right after the break, we’ll start the pre recorded interview fund-raising throughout your life cycle. So stay with me. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Durney are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Oppcoll hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of national philanthropy day with the edith may conference centre in briar cliff manner, new york, hosted by the association of fund-raising professionals, westchester county chapter. Joining me now is jeff sobel. He is founder of jeffrey sobel consulting and his unconference topic is non-profit life cycles and culture development strategies for each stage. Jeff sobel, welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here. It’s. A pleasure. What is? What are the development life cycles? Oh, sure. Well, there’s non-profit life’s like, well, just like sort of for-profit business non-profits also have ah, very natural life cycle to them. I have to say, over the last couple of years, those have sped up because of technology. So we’re seeing a compression exactly time compression. So really, the first life cycle is the start of phase or the not to start it, but the brainchild phase or the creation on dh for many people, it’s something that never comes out because it’s something they think about, they think there’s a great issue that they can tackle, but they never verbalize it, and he never sort of formalize it. But for the few people who do yeah, and there’s more, more people who were doing it, they put that out there on because of technology and the ability to get people together and formalized people. And also the back office stuff can be done much quicker. So that’s why? Quicker and cheaper? Exactly. The expenses is almost never minimal. The amount of stuff did you khun doing? Cloud and social media? You’re going, you’re going your office running in a week. Exactly. It’s it’s, it’s amazing. So what happened? You know, you don’t even need an office. You’re doing it out of your bedroom. Exactly. Okay? And the other the beauty of it is is that you can learn quickly whether it’s going to take a hold or you can say okay, we can move on from that idea. Okay, the brainchild let’s move on and then we’ll come back. So after you get through the idea and you verbalize it, everybody you get to the start up phase where you say, okay, now i’ve got a sort of developed by-laws i’ve actually got a file for a five twenty three i’ve got to get the board members together usually boardmember zehr close friends at this time people, you know what friends and family have been recruited exactly? You bring everybody on and in the close network what’s inside your tent on, and then you start figuring out, okay, programmatically how well, you know, the idea that the social impact that we want to bring or the particular idea that we’re developing what’s the program we’ll look like. So this also can happen a lot faster. Now you have to sort of do your research to figure out. Are there other groups doing what you’re doing in that space? We’ll talk about that, you know, we’re talking about some of the trend analysis and doing your own research, but let’s, move on to the next phase short fired-up once you once you get past the startup, you’ve gotto sort of get into what we call the adolescents and growth rays, so you basically become a teenager, you sort of. Now you’ve got beyond just your friends and family on the board, you’re not usually your first funder and multiple funders at this time. Most organizations, fifty percent or seventy percent is coming from either one or two major funders, which again, family and friends exactly where a big foundation who loves the idea wants to be in that space wants to develop a model. Usually these things are still in the model face, so i’m going to develop something they say is going to work here. Westchester, if it takes off, will branch out to new york and new jersey embarrasses identity after after adolescence and growth. So then you become what we call a maturity middle age. You’re already sure there’s a thoughtless growth phase is something that then you become a mature agency. You’ve got your legs. All right, you’re actually operating. You usually got an office of used nowadays? Not necessarily, but you have a space that people can sort of connect to. People know about to program fund-raising looks very different fund-raising you start have staff, you organize more like structurally, actually. But you actually have an organizational chart that you can live by and actually is reality. The founders usually probably still involved in the early part of this, but usually that person’s phasing out or somehow still connected, but bringing on more of ah non-profit professional to be the executive director someone who’s had a career in non-profit um and then you grow in your boards are you know you have professionals on your board. Okay? People have different skillsets let’s. Go so let’s, go back to the early the brainchild way. Have ah, this business. You mind if i just mentioned one real quick thing? No, i don’t mind. Okay, go ahead. Uh, the next phase and what isn’t face-to-face? Oh, i thought it was true. And act like you actually four faces. One phase we never like to talk about. But then the last phase is what we call stagnation. Sure, agencies fall backwards and they go into what we call stagnation phase for whatever reasons could be a funding reason. It could be because their programs are not needed anymore, and they have to sort of reinvent themselves. Probably the most famous example of this is the march of dimes. They were started and they solved the issue of but the disease that they were trying to work on. And then they reinvented themselves specifically around early childhood and birth defects in various things like that. So, you know, agencies at that point, the last piece is, unfortunately, agencies can decline and shut down if they go. Down to the piece, this is when we don’t like to talk about it when we don’t like to talk to happen, but it does happen and there’s a way to do it appropriately. Okay, so let’s, just see what we have time for now, because i i do get a lot of enquiries about from people who are i have an idea, they’re passionate, they want to do something burning that isn’t a ce far as they know isn’t being done or isn’t being done well there, so we’re back in the brainchild phase. What’s your advice there around development strategies. Well, i think there’s a couple different things. One to do your homework and research to see who else is in that space. If there’s nobody else in that space, obviously, then i think you can move forward. If not, you want to go talk to those other organizations. You might be able to collaborate and they save yourself enormous. Exactly their enormous administrative and fund-raising i know everybody. There’s, there’s, sort of an eagle at play and everybody wants that sort of be the founder and head of a new five o once i can do it. Better exactly, and if you don’t have the personal wealth to fundchat in a very difficult thing to do and the first i find the first thing that can sort of temper that enthusiasm is the irs thie application exactly non-profit exempt status after you’ve been through the right, the state inc exactly, the irs will help you put the brakes on right with their twelve to eighteen month process. Probably the best thing that you could do early on is have a strategy session, bring in experts on people that you know, that you trust that will be as honest as they can with you. People are our objective outsiders as well, sort of a focus group ten to twelve people bring the idea to them, get their feedback. What did they see? Do they talk about other organizations who are doing the same thing? Are they you know, they see this as something that’s funda ble people will like isn’t needed, you know, obviously, just because you think it’s needed doesn’t always messes and everybody else is going to see thie importance behind it. So doing an early focus group, you know, not keeping the ideas if you’re proud of the idea, or you think the idea really has can resonate, then vocalize it as soon as possible, share what as many people as possible, see what i guess they hastily used the phrase, but see what sticks to the wall and get that out as soon as possible, because then you’ll learn you’ll. If it’s going to take off those early conversations in those early strategy sessions, those of the people are going to help you formalize it. Not everybody, but some are going to hell. Wow, i love what he’s doing or she’s doing. I’m going to lend my support. We couldn’t do anything to get independent thing. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get you thinking. Cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. No. Hi, this is psychic medium. Betsy cohen, host of the show. The power of intuition. Join me at talking alternative that calm mondays at eleven a. M call in for a free second reading learned how to tune into your intuition to feel better and to create your optimum life. I’m here to guide you and to assist you in creating life that you deserve. Listen. Every monday at eleven a, m on talking alternative dot com. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics politically expressed. I am montgomery taylor, and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. In this brainchild phase, we do need to put ego aside exactly it’s it’s a hard thing to dio it’s only human nature, but i think the way, the way i always preface things that people says, i personally think this would be a great idea. I’ve thought about it. This is my thinking’s, but i need everybody else to tell me what what is reality and have you if you’re good about listening to reality from others, it’ll save you an enormous amount of time because everything else that we’re going to talk about you could avoid if you don’t start a nonprofit but end up collaborating with with one that already exists that doing something related or close, right, i given example just real quickly, we just got contact we could contacted about this all the time, and i would say ninety percent of the time we get contacted, that person should be talking to another non-profit and they could bring that energy to that non-profit already created, and it could be a program developed within that and often running in. Lots of people are being helped and of that night, so go ahead, just everyone, some other is something new on dh? It has merit to wanting to develop a new organization. We’re working someone contest the other day who is a volunteer firefighter who happened to be very successful in business on wanting to develop something very specific for firefighters prevent heart attacks. It’s a highest rate of lye fire fighters die. Okay, so there’s a whole new program. He’s developing he’s. You know, within his first six months of the developing the idea he’s doing that, you know, we’re trying to counsel him through the right steps to see if this will resonate. Will it work and various things like that? So more times than not, though i would get back to your initial point is, if you put your eagle to the side and really get down to the facts, you could really decide whether it’s something you should be working with someone else or setting up that new non-profit in your experience, that ninety percent that ought to be talking to another non-profit how many of them actually do go talk to another non-profit about collaborating? I would say about half of those. Alright, okay, but it’s not that bad. And i would say unfortunately, most of them continue forward no matter what, i try to talk him off, go do what they’re supposed to do, and then they stop doing what they’re supposed to do, and you go off on their own anyway. Well, i think there’s something convinced them, you know, if someone lets give example, if it’s an entertainer or let’s say, it’s, somebody who’s been very successful as a hedge fund manager on investment world or some other business, right? They always feel like, hey, what we did in the business world, we could bring that expertise in the nonprofit world, and that was something that i could definitely say it was somewhat true, let’s say fifteen, twenty years ago, but the way non-profits operate now, you know, it’s very hard for someone who says, hey, just because i ran a successful coat company or some others hyre business doesn’t mean i can run a successful non-profit and have, you know, huge impact and changed on my own there’s just so much around compliance and regulation, you’re you’re starting a corporation. This is a non profit corporation, but it isn’t. It is incorporated, it has to adhere to a lot of those corporate rules as well as go find money. Well, the money parts really hard, you know, there’s so many non-profits in the space of trying to raise money. So you’re just, you know, you think your idea will cut through all that cloud and all that clutter of everybody else, but it won’t there’s ego and impossible. All right, let’s, move on. If we haven’t persuaded people that the brainchild faces really where they should stop and maybe ah, latto ally themselves with another non-profit if we haven’t persuaded them of that let’s, move on to the start up phase when your and your i know the focus of your talk is really around fund-raising in development strategy. So at this start up phase, what does fund-raising look like? Well, it’s a combination of things once again, it’s still going to be very close and that we’re friends, you’re going to develop a board, you’re gonna have to base it on by-laws and legal regulations and things like that. So those people are going to be you’re going to have to convince them in an early age, to want to be fund-raising on your behalf, you could be an early age of the organization really don’t don’t go recruiting five year old no that’s not fair, because they’ll come on five year olds will come, my love, you’re not gonna be like i know my eight year old, but they’re not going to reach adolescence by the time you do your organization does, they’re going to be exactly they’re gonna hold you back don’t don’t recruit the five year old no, i think the other pieces that you’re going to depending on the program and depending on the idea, what you’re also going to need to do is you have to harness technology. So between the social media, the youtube twitter than facebook’s of the world, you have to bring in an enormous amount of people who are going to learn about what you’re trying to do, connect to it early on, not that everybody’s going to move forward with it, but whatever whoever connect. So i guess you need to use the term, but you’re able to take it viral, then have some mechanism in the back to say ok, up to people who learn about it, who are the people that i need to go? Talk to the top fifty who are the top twenty five? You can’t be worried about that. One thousand people know about his thousand when early face of a startup, you have to find major donors early on, you have to find people who were going to buy into the concept take a chance they’re basically becoming investors in your idea of a philanthropic investor, and they’re going to take that that’s what’s going to be successful later on, you can build all the other traditional fund-raising ideas, but in the early start up phase, if you don’t do early on and get to capacity. Like i said, it goes back to also some people get started because they can fund it themselves. You know, michael bloomberg decides he wants to do something he can, he can throw his own a couple million teo. But aside, people can’t aside from from from being able to self fund, then this is really a marketplace test of your ideas and your marketing too, right? Right. And and that’s that’s going, you’ll never get to the mature phase of an organization if you can’t get major donors. All right, well, we’re gonna get people to adolescence before, before we get to mature. But how do they do something that you just mentioned? Identify the top twenty five or fifty out of the thousand people that are now, like, you know, like the facebook page and and r and r on the email list, how do you find those? The the top, right? Well, they basically had to use the tools that are provided for you from from a technology standpoint. So there’s a lot of research information out there that you confined on particular subject, whatever subject matter you are doing, even though if your programs unique there’s still people out there who have funded something in that arena. And so you have to find those people and find a way to connect and had those conversations with those foundations, corporations and major fund and potential individual donors. So most that information’s public knowledge now and you can create your own without spending a lot of money for fancy researcher you confined, you can create your own top twenty five prospectors. You can also listen to tony martignetti non-profit radio because we do have a regular prospect, research contributor maria semple, who comes on once a month, maria’s fancy socks you know what i do in the prospect finder? She comes on once a month. I’m with jeff sobel he’s, a founder of jeffrey sobel consulting, and we’re talking about the life cycles of a non-profit and different development strategies within each cycle, let’s go from start upto adolescence and growth. What does fund-raising look like now? Well, if this phase what you’re going to have a big change in your board, this is where you move away from your traditional friends and family board you’re actually recruiting people who have given to you connected to the agency professionals from other arenas, people you probably never met until you teo developed a non-profit so those trustees and you had to bring them on with the right expectations, too many matured agencies have they don’t have e-giving get policy, they don’t have a fund-raising component for their boards, and they try to integrate it afterwards. That’s the biggest mistake you can make what you have to do is in that early phase, when you move from start upto adolescents, you’ve gotta integrate the expectations of fund-raising for those who are connected, the board and volunteers because the only way you’re going to be successful in the fund-raising aspect is that i have a bigger network than yourself another people you know, the next. This is sort of a phase where you start moving into a traditional event, whatever that is e-giving example, agency we’re working with his only their foundation only has been around since two thousand five. This year, they did their first five k walk run on people connected to the walk run like you prior to the walk, when they had about a hundred people on their database after the walk run, they have over ten thousand people, not a smaller donors, the twenty five fifty dollars who donate to someone who walking and running into cause put down that now they have a database, that’s, actual prospects, people that take in mind and then move forward with. So you have to do something that’s going to increase that database, you’re going, you’ve got to really you can’t you can’t fund-raising without a database, but interesting, though you don’t, you know you didn’t start with event fund-raising back in the in the start up phase, you weren’t saying, have a gala. We’ll do a walk run, thie, but i do think a lot of people think of events is the only way to do fund-raising but so i think i’m just emphasizing all the message that you’ve said before this before you got to the events from the event was not the first way to raise money, right? Well, the biggest reason why lots of groups start that way is because most people connected to these ideas don’t have a non-profit background and most likely definitely don’t have a fund-raising background, a professional fund-raising background. So the only thing that they know is the traditional galas, golf outing, dinners and those types of things they don’t know the sophistication around major gifts and the moves management and the ways that are going to attract foundations and corporations, so they go to what they know that’s why i said that in the early stages, you’ve got to bring on some expertise, that’s going to help you sort of sort of figure out the best mode and bringing that money and get to the traditional type of stuff you need resource is it’s it’s it’s unless, like again, unless you have two dollars. To pay the caterers and the event and all the other stuff a front you can’t just do an event, events have a lot to cost to them and you don’t want to run a one something that’s not going to get you any profit, and they’re also incredibly labour intensive, very labor intensive, very labor, and i think a lot of people don’t realize what goes into making sure that the bunting matches the flowers. Well, the worst part about is they don’t realize that the real work for fund-raising happens after events, you know, it’s who attended, what did they get out of that event and who in that room has the potential to do something much beyond right? The price of the two hundred dollars ticket? You’re follow-up your follow-up on dh that’s directly now gets to what you said earlier when we were in the start up phase. You’ve got to find the people who come to the organization of those thousand or so that you found online who were the top ones that you need to follow up with same thing after you’re after your event. Who were the top attendees thatyou need to follow-up exactly in a strategic ways and maybe more personal ways than you’re following up with the other many hundreds who came, hopefully right, let’s move to maturity. Sure fund-raising here, what is our fund-raising model look like? Well, the fund-raising at this point, you should have ah, probably have a head of development, a director of development, smaller staff, some depending on the size agency. Much bigger staff, it’s going to be much more sophisticated. So your your development operations actually starts now breaking into two operations, you have your annual fund where you have to raise a certain amount of money to to need to keep the agency moving its programs, the staff paying everything that supplements all the other revenues of the agency. The other piece is creating the strategic longer term campaigns, whether it’s an endowment fund building a reserve if you own a building what’s, you know, the capitol pieces far building a new building or fixing things, you know, all sorts of reasons why you need to be in a major gifts mode, and you had to be able to manage those operations at the same time. You can’t just be in one and and do the other i’m insured agency amateur fund-raising development department can do both on last minute at least is also don’t forget about the plan giving component, which is very important by that by despite you should have the ability to really start taking your donor’s through their life cycle of e-giving on and that’s really important piece. Yeah, and if you’re not familiar with plans e-giving it’s it’s essentially encouraging people to remember the organization in their state plan, somehow that could be life insurance or simple bequest in their will. It’s like, sometimes it’s going back to the original founders and going back to the original people helped start the agency and saying, hayden, you know, we need you to leave a legacy you made something that now is around thirty five, forty years, whatever the years are, but it wants to be around for the next hundred years in order to do that, we need a sound investment. We need the sound endowment that’s going to secure an anchor, the agency what’s, the what’s, the key thing in the mature stage that you think non-profits don’t do a cz well as they ought to, they had to. Say one thing that you wish mature agencies organizations would do that they don’t, what would that be? Well, from fund-raising standpoint, i think the plan giving component is a huge one that i think too many agencies, i hate to use the word ignore, but put on the back burner or don’t put enough effort toward, but more important is thinking more strategic long term. So i think a lot of agencies plot along and do really well on the campaign and then when the moment arises or the question arises about hey, we need a campaign to do x, y and z above and beyond for whatever needs those are it’s it’s, they haven’t been doing enough to cultivate their donors, so that face takes a lot longer. So if i had the hole in the roof and we need to fix it and it’s going to cost us the two million dollars for the capital campaign, we needed to do it, you know, in a year from now, but we haven’t matured our donor’s ready to do it and it’s going to take more like two and three years so never think that the annual campaigns the only thing that’s going on the too many mature agencies think about the here and now, but, you know, i always think about your donors about what they’re doing for you anally, but also cultivating them to think about, okay, when we are ready to have a major initiative and they could be helpful to that major initiative, are we will we be ready to ask them? That’s the next stage is stagnation. That sounds like something we should avoid. Exactly, hoping i don’t mature that’s not part of my life cycle, right? So how do we avoid stagnation? Well, that is everything that you just described is a combination of that it’s also being able to evaluate taking a hard look once again it’s strategic planning process. But i’ma call organizational eagerness. Okay, so as we talked about in the start of face having egos, organizations, whoever tour sometimes have their own ego to themselves because i feel like the importance of whatever they’re doing or what they have been doing for many, many years still remains. So you have to be evaluating your programs. You have to be evaluating what you’re doing and that impact on the community. Can you be doing something new, evaluating the market to what if, what if the need’s right, that should be in the community all the time assessing whether your work is still relevant? Exactly. I mean, if you’re running let’s, say, youth program at a particular school and you know, when you first started about that, you had a waiting list and kids were climbing to get in there and in the last two years, you know, you go on visited in the half, the room’s half empty something’s not resonating there, so you can’t rest on your laurels and your funders will quickly get to that piece they’ll start seeing your outcomes. Obviously anybody who’s ever written the grant know is that at some point you have to write a report, and at some point, if you’re going to renew, you’ve gotta prove those outcomes, and when the numbers are not there, they’re not there, and so that will quickly. So you you can’t sort of live in that mode. You’ve gotta kind of always say, hey, we’ve got to be evaluating ourselves. What can we challenge ourselves with? It doesn’t necessarily meeting creating something off mission, because that’s what a lot of agencies, right is staying on mission, but creating something that will continue, you know, reinvigorating, reengage, you know, there’s various things, and the other thing is, obviously your volunteers, you got to be consistent with your board. Ah, there’s, nobody out there does that i’ve ever met who could be on a board for more than eight, nine, ten years and still be assed valuables they were from the beginning boardmember can leave, can moved often agency and still connect to the agency and still be important. But there’s a huge value, bringing someone new to fill that seat, new energy and many organizations, you know, they hold onto boardmember fearful to ask them to step down. We have just thirty seconds left. Jeff decline is the last stage what one piece of advice for avoiding declined? Well, usually that’s a hard thing if your agency the biggest thing that you can do to avoid declining a za non-profit is probably when you get to the stagnation phase, realize it quickly and devise a plan quickly usually it’s a deficit that you’re dealing with and never be afraid to cut a part of your program or your agency, because it could be the detriment of your entire agency, don’t hold onto something to to know in the long run we’ll put you out of business, even though you just hold on it because of legacy or just something you’ve always done. You have to be willing to cut your losses. Jeff sobel is founder of jeffrey sobel consulting and his conference topic at national philanthropy day is non-profit life cycles and culture, the development strategies for each stage. And i think this is jeff very interesting conversation, very relevant for people who are thinking about a non-profit there at that brainchild phase, they really should know what what lies ahead. Oh, yes. Is that there’s a lot? Thank you very much for being a guest. My pleasure. This is tony martignetti na non-profit radio coverage of national philanthropy day, hosted by the association of fund-raising professionals, westchester county chapter that was my pre recorded interview fund-raising throughout your life cycle. I recorded that with jeffrey sobel at westchester county chapter of the association for fund-raising professionals national philanthropy day in november two thousand eleven. Just last month. Right now we take a break and after the break it’s, tony’s, take two and then marrying major and planned gif ts. So stay with me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed, i and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com lively conversation top trends, sound advice, that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m ken berger from charity navigator. Welcome back to the show, it’s time now for tony’s take to my block this week is my next-gen charity video interviews last month at the next-gen charity conference, i interviewed about eight of the luminaries who they had a cz part of their program. It was a pretty exciting conference close to a thousand people were their very jazzed up audience heard from a lot of very interesting people, and i got to interview a bunch of them. We were media sponsors for that conference. One of them is craig newmark he’s, the founder of craigslist, and now more recently, craigconnects craig and i talked about consistent messaging and knowing when to stop talking peter thumb and i talked about perseverance in the face of disappointment. Peter is the founder of ethos water aria finger, chief operating officer of do something dot org’s, which is a site devoted to getting young people involved in volunteering with non-profits joined me to share ideas about how to motivate teenagers to support your work market echo of eco enterprises, the well known clothing lines talked about his board service. Um, i talked with charles best he’s the founder of donors choose dot or ge and he and i talked about connecting donors to the causes they support. You may know donors choose that’s the site where teachers post their needs in the classroom, and then individual donors devote money to those to those needs. Neil strauss uncovered lessons for non-profits from his undercover work in a secret society of pickup artists. He infiltrated this society when he was on assignment for rolling stone magazine. You can learn what eric sapp kristen learned from taking two hundred of our nation’s thought leaders and entertainers out for a cup of coffee. He traveled the country in a volkswagen microbus and cold called about two hundred of our nation’s leaders and entertainers on dh people you know, from the arts and politics and invite him out for a cup of coffee, including jimmy carter, don rickles, henry winkler, let’s well, in the interview, i brought out some lessons that he learned from talking to all those people, and disney made a film about his his journey, and the movie is the journey so links to these and a lot of other next-gen videos are on my block mpg a dv dot com, and that is tony’s take two for friday, december ninth. Now we have a pre recorded interview marrying major and planned gif ts you’ll learn about how these two could be compatible from charlie gordy, director of planned giving in harvard law school, and margaret hohman principle of home in consulting see whether this could be a match made in heaven between major and planned gif ts and here’s that interview this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the national conference on philanthropic planning. We are in the heart of san antonio, texas, on the river walk i guess now are margaret hohman and charlie gordy. Margaret is principal holman consulting in new york city and charlie gordy is director of planned e-giving at harvard law school. Margaret charlie welcome! Thank you. Thankyou, tony. Good to be here. It’s. A pleasure to have both of you your your session topic is job fusion or confusion marrying major and plant gifts. Charlie, let me start with you. What what’s the possible confusion. Well, as a lot of organisations respond to what’s going on in the economy, the pressure for outright current e-giving has led to a de emphasis on plan giving deferred e-giving and individual playing, giving officers or having to respond to that looking at being merged into a major gifts rolls, and that is causing some confusion for them, i think, personally and also institutionally in what the best approach is to overall fund-raising into their donors, okay, but is it not a good idea to be breaking down silos between major e-giving and plan giving? I think breaking down the silos is absolutely critical and the structure internally you should be very flat. Margaret pointed out in our first session that what she sees and obviously let her speak for herself, for what she sees in the future is a very flat structure. The silos should be broken down, and major gift and plan giving officers should work very, very closely together with donors, but they are different techniques of fund-raising they’re different processes you think differently when you’re focusing on on plan giving versus major e-giving, um, and all playing gifts are major gifts essentially just depends on how you get there, okay? We’re going to talk a little about what the different thoughts might be and margaret, we will get to what the future looks like, but before we get there. I just, you know, sort of leading into the topic too. Your your session description suggests that changes in the economy changes in the tax law are impacting this issue. Indeed, the more complex, constant and confusing change is that there are with tax laws right now from the charitable deduction that proposed change in the estate law. State tax law it coming it going? How do i plan for a bequest? Should i die this year? Should i die next year? Those are all things that are confusing not only to gift officers but also to donors and that is really driving a lot of the expertise surrounding both major gift work and planned gift work. Thie economy obviously has an effect to when the economy stumbles, major gifts go down. Plan gifts are not as affected by the economy because they are future gifts. They’re more long term on many organizations. If they have a plan gift program that has been working that will be the bridge between the bad economy and staying alive is because i’m getting bequests. I might not be getting major gifts now. Are you seeing in your consulting practice some regret among charities that don’t have a plan giving probono yes, wishing, wishing they started ten even five years ago maybe yes, and many organizations who said, hey, listen, our plan give program is just going a million miles an hour, we’re getting millions of dollars, so we don’t have to do anything now on then all and then it starts this gradual decline for about five years, and somebody in the finance office says, oh, my gosh, how come our be question come is going down it’s because we haven’t been doing anything well, let’s put some money into doing anything now they’ve got another five year wait, so you got a ten year trough s o that the name of the game is consistent, it needs to be this consistent effort indeed, from oh planned gift and go ahead, charlie. Yeah, tow follow-up on what margaret said, i worked with an organization a few years ago on a consulting basis, and the cfo there said, look, i could shut the plan giving program down tomorrow, and i wouldn’t see it, i wouldn’t see any impact for five years, and i’ve got a budget problem right now that i’ve got it solved. So, isn’t that a a good solution? And i had to tell him that no, in fact, it’s absolutely the wrong thing to do because you are going to hurt the long term financial health of your organization for a short term gain and, uh, our listeners, i want to point out charlie has a terrific bowtie on, and for those who are on the videos were doing videos is not a clip on i want to make it very clear, it’s clearly not a clip on much, much classier guy than then those clip on men. So what? What are some practical solutions, margaret, for breaking down the silos and bringing the two together? Well, one of the practical solutions is to train cross train land, gift officers and major gift officers in each other’s areas of expertise, so that in essence, you become a generalist. And i find now that my clients, when they do have an opening for a major gift officer, are looking for somebody who can talk plan gifts. We want two for the price of one. When i started in the fund-raising world nineteen seventy six, there weren’t planned gift officers. There weren’t specialties because of the way the economy went and democratic demographics of donors it caused institutions to create silos. Teo, answer that need the demographics are changing the old that big group of older folks who are prime plan gift prospects are dying off now. There aren’t very many of them left, and we’re entering this age of the boomers and the silence who can both make a major gift and a plan gift. And now we need to have people who can talk both things, but we also have to educate our boards, but more often than not, we really have to address the problem that charlie ran into and talk to our finance people and explain how this really works. Let’s, start with the first of the things that you mentioned, the cross training how how deep should the major gift officer’s training be implant e-giving are we talking about just the ability to open a discussion or that they could go further? Maybe even maybe even they can meet with donors? Advisors? I mean, how deep should that training b of the former plan gift officer now? Now cross training? Well, it is really is going to do for sort of the former major gift officer. Krauz right, it’s going to really depend on the individual and the institution? I like to make my major gift officers what i call dangerous going like for them to know when they’ve gotten to the point where they don’t have the answer and and can say confidently, i don’t have the answer that let me get back to you on and that way you accomplished two things when the donor gets the right information, but you have another contact with the donor, thus getting the relationship continuing our good relationship on. So i like to get them as dangerous as possible. They need to understand the basic concepts and know when to say i need, you know, i need to call charlie, okay, so now, charlie yeah, yeah follow-up on that i work with major gift officers att the law school that are are really exceptional a cz you’d expect, and they still aren’t very comfortable talking about plan giving on on a regular basis. I have one that asks me a couple of times a year again to explain the difference between a gift annuity and trust. And that’s fine, and i’m happy to do that and that’s a great role for me. What i like to do is educate them to know what to listen for. You know, i have a house that i’m no longer using very much. I’d love to give, but and then to follow on what margaret said when the donor says that, but i like them to say to no be comfortable saying, well, you know what? If we were able to show you a way that you could still make your gift and take care of those other financial concerns that you have, they don’t need to know how the gift annuity payments are taxed or how the charitable deduction is calculated, but that their their methods that the organization can present that will allow the donor to still make their gift and take care of those other financial concerns that have so that suggests that there there does still need to be an expert in planned e-giving at at the organization, we can’t all just be flat, absolute cross trained? Absolutely. I believe that one hundred percent. Yeah, well, the the other thing, too is well, i also believe that there should be a plan give expert on everybody staff not every organization can afford to do that is going to get there. So using expertise either if you’ve got somebody on the board whose attacks planning attorney or trusting a state’s attorney and you can use that and get some advice or there are a lot of consultants out there who would be more than happy to work with an organization on on an hourly basis or whatever other way you khun by the expertise you need, what you can’t buy is the donor relationship. Yeah, if you have the luxury of the budget toe, have somebody on staff that’s great, but as margaret points out in his, you point out, tony, if you don’t have that it’s available and you can find it and it’s it’s almost like the same link between the major gift officer and the in house plan giving person with more expertise and then thean house plan giving person in the outside consultant everybody knows how far they can take it and when to bring in somebody else to actually make the gift happen. Let’s, go into some of the little detail, charlie. About what you suggested earlier, what to listen for lets you know so that listeners can actually get some of the benefit of the of the training. What are some things that gift officers should be listening for? That would suggest a good plan to give prospect well, first in in, in doing the planning to visit someone looking at their history, their donation history, consistent gifts over a long period of time, maybe it’s one hundred dollars, maybe it’s, fifty dollars, over five, ten years, maybe it’s a thousand. So they have that that that philanthropic connection with the institution, when you’re meeting with them of and your goal, perhaps, is an outright major gift. And they say, well, i’m just i’m not very liquid right now, so they have assets, but they’re tied up, maybe in stocks or in real estate, and if they’re in stocks and real estate, those of the assets they have it’s, a perfect candidate for a plan, gift talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m carol ward from the body mind wellness program. Listen to my show for ideas and information to help you live a healthier life in body, mind and spirit, you’ll hear from terrific guests who are experts in the areas of health, wellness and creativity. So join me every thursday at eleven a, m eastern standard time on talking alternative dot com professionals serving community. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stopped by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. Be more effective, be happier. And make more money. Improving communications. That’s. The answer. Talking. Durney okay, margaret, any any further advice on? Well, oftentimes i hear people say, i don’t think i can afford this right now, and i want to take care of my family so that that again gives us that opportunity to talk about some more unconventional ways, shall we say, to make those kinds of gifts? When i work with organizations toe to go out and talk to donors, i tell them often, teo, tell the donor to take care of themselves first their family’s second and us third. And there are ways that we can help you take care of yourself, your family and then us that don’t involve writing a check. Okay, what’s one of those ways. Let’s. Go into a little detail. Well, obviously, their life income gifts that can provide for your wife, your spouse, your elderly sister, whatever. You can still make a gift. That person is getting income gets it out of your state plan. There are a myriad of different ways that you can do this. I think baby boomers are going to be looking at life income gifts as good alternatives for retirement planning and that’s going to be the new frontier four. Major and plant gift officers and charlie. Those the most common life income gifts that we see, i guess, would be the charitable gift annuity and charitable remainder. Trust that that’s right gift annuity is much more common, usually for a smaller dollar amount less flexible in the planning process than a charitable remainder trust which can i usually take care of a need to have a growing income stream versus a fixed one. And the terms of the trust document can generally be varied. Mohr then a gift annuity, which is just a simple contract. Okay? And you also have a lot of state regulation around charitable gift annuities. We want listeners to know that it’s not it’s, not a lot of states. Most states it’s not something you can just start issuing tomorrow. No, there. There are a lot of things involved. I also sit on the board of the american council on gift annuities. And there are a lot of things involved when you decide to get into a gift annuity program. State regulations for sure need to be complied with, but also the liability, the contractual liability that you’re exposing your organization to has to be. Matched against the benefits of the program, you have tohave ah, the ability to assemble a pool of gift annuities fifteen, twenty, twenty five gift annuities so you’re diversifying the risk over the portfolio of annuities, you have to have an investment strategy that’s going to be appropriate to deliver that annual income. So there, it’s very simple to set up in terms of the contract and the gift, but much more complicated to maintain and run appropriately, since you’re on the board of the american council on gift annuities wanna give a little pitch just to give the web web? You know the girl for you? Www dot a hyphen, web dot or ge great organization has been around since the twenties recommending gift annuity rates, recommending not prescribing but recommending gift annuity rates that are really in the best interests of the donor and the organization over the long term. Thank you for that, and i want you to know that i didn’t know the girl in case i didn’t say i was happy to have you say, but i don’t want you to think, oh god, what if i don’t know what you’re on the board so i figured you’d be saying i told you there was a safe question. I hope that means i got it right. His hyphen web dot. Org’s that’s, right. Um, let’s see, margaret way talked a little about the future of this job fusion versus confusion. What? What were your points in the workshop? Well, the basic point is, is that while we continue to be donor-centric in all of our activities way we have to begin to understand that we’ve made these silos to define for ourselves as fund-raising professionals where we are in the hierarchy of our organizations, donors don’t care, they just want to deal with the right person at the organization and for some donors, learning that i’m going to be talking to the director of major gifts, paints a bull’s eye on my forehead, and that makes me uncomfortable. But if i was talking with margaret from the development office, who was going to help me make a gift externally, we have to be flatlined. We all have to look like we’re equal. We all have to be able to help our donors do what they want to do. So i see the future is that? That titles will pretty much be the same. Go away internally, we’ll have our organised beloved organization charts, but to our donors it will just be a flat line and that’s it extends beyond major and planned giving, though to visit, and you will giving corporate and foundation sponsorship and support work. I was at a event for a client recently, and everybody proudly was wearing their name tag with their job title on the front and the director of major gifts was walking down the floor, heading to see a specific donors and she could see the job title and she turned her back to talk to somebody else. You just bull’s eye, i know i’m going to be asked for a big gift, so i think this just continues to be donors and we have to pay a tent. We have to listen to what they’re saying, but we’ve been saying this for i don’t know at least a decade, but now i’ve been in play e-giving for fourteen years, not as long as either of you and i’ve been hearing donor-centric donor-centric put the donor’s needs first, but in terms of job hierarchies and descriptions, it hasn’t. Happened yet? Ah lot of that has to do with it coming from down from the top and how executive directors like to organize and how they manage on, and it takes a sophisticated executive director to understand how important it is the public perception of a donor to working with somebody, they really associate the person, not the title with the organisers. And i remember advice from someone i know you both know hyre robert sharps sr who used to preach that his preferred job title for everybody would be assistant to the president. Yes, because what don’t right, johnny, what donors wouldn’t want to talk to the assistant to the president? No, no, i think that’s right, and the the name tags that i like the most for me personally just say alumni affairs and development. They don’t say director of plan giving because i think margaret’s right? You get a very different reaction or when i send emails and i’m thinking about this as i’m saying it, i may change my email tag, take out the director of playing e-giving and just put in alumni affairs and development because people see that and the point about it. Being flat internally and donor-centric we’ve been hearing the donor center, as he said for about a decade, the flat internally i think it’s been less and less quick to come because organizations haven’t had to respond internally. Now, we’ve had the two budget crises over the last decade two thousand to two thousand eight organisations saying, you know hey, what are we doing in terms of how were structured and the danger is that playing giving gets lost in that shuffle in the in the flat, the flattening and it all becomes major gift focus with a loss on the play e-giving focus i think if it’s done right, you could do it both very successfully have a flat organization, somebody internally that has the plan giving expertise. I can work successfully without being siloed to enhance major gift officers success and still preserve the plan giving expertise and function and that’s the fusion in urine yourself in your workshop titled the job fusion i think that’s right. I want to bring these things together. Any closing thoughts, margaret? Well, we just want to say thanks again for having me us today and we, i hope, all of our listeners get one or two good nuggets of ideas that’s the idea. Margaret hohman is principal of woman consulting in new york city. Charlie gordy is director of playing giving at the harvard law school. I want to thank you both for joining us. Thank you. Thanks, tony. Pleasure to have you. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the national conference on philanthropic planning two thousand eleven. That was my pre recorded interview marrying major and planned gif ts from the national conference on philanthropic planning earlier this year. I want to thank jeff sobel and charlie gordy and margaret hohman and the organizers of a f p westchester’s national national philanthropy day that’s, where i talked to jeff sobel and the folks at the partnership for philanthropic planning, they were the hosts of the conference where i interviewed charlie gordy and margaret hohman next week. Social media inbound zombie is his consulting company, social media marketing for non-profits is his blogged john hayden will be my guest and also scott koegler, a regular contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news will share the latest on tech for your office. Keep up with what’s coming up on the show. Sign up for our insider email alerts on our facebook page. You know where to find facebook and then it’s just the name of this show. If you like the show like the page, please become fan. You can listen live or archive. Itunes is where you listen archive and you could get to our itunes paige at non-profit radio dot net. You can subscribe there and listen on your computer smartphone tablet the device of your choice. You can follow me on twitter. You can follow the show on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio. 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