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Nonprofit Radio for June 23, 2017: Don’t Be The Founder From Hell & Your DR Plan

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Jim Nowak: Don’t Be The Founder From Hell

Jim Nowak heads fundraising for the dZi Foundation, which he founded. How did he and the Foundation manage his transition from executive director to chief fundraiser? He talks candidly about the board, job descriptions, ego and more. (We talked at Opportunity Collaboration 2015 & this originally aired 10/30/15.)

 

 

Dar Veverka: Your DR Plan

Disaster recovery: Ignore it at your own peril. What belongs in your DR plan? Dar Veverka is vice president of technology for LIFT. (This originally aired 5/1/15 and is from the 2015 Nonprofit Technology Conference.)

 

 


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Dahna hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the idler ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of black ophelia if you tried to sugar coat the idea that you missed today’s show, don’t be the founder from hell, jim no ac heads fund-raising for the d c i foundation, which he founded. How did he and the foundation manage his transition from executive director to chief fundraiser? He talks candidly about the board, job descriptions, ego and more. We talked that opportunity collaboration twenty fifteen miss originally aired october thirtieth, twenty fifteen and your d our plan disaster recovery ignore it at your own peril. What belongs in your d our plan dahna geever ca is vice president of technology for lift. This originally aired on may first, twenty fifteen and is from the twenty fifteen non-profit technology conference on tony’s take two the charleston principles we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we be e spelling dot com here is gym no ac with don’t be the founder from hell. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of opportunity collaboration twenty fifteen were on the beach in x top of mexico. My guest is jim no ac. He is president and co founder of zi foundation. They’re at dc i that’s deltas delta zulu, india from my air force days dot org’s dc i dot org’s and we’re talking about avoiding being the founder from hell. Jim is not that jim. Welcome. Thanks, tony for having me on the show. Appreciate it. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we got together rubs what? Two days ago, right? I think we’re connected. And, um all right, you’re not the founder from hell, and we are going. We’re gonna take this way only have one side of the story, so i don’t have justin you because one of your board to collaborate to corroborate your your side. But you’re doing a session here. Yeah, i presume you’ve been. You’ve been vetted. Yeah, i’ve done done the session for the six years i’ve been coming. Job pretending collaboration. I keep offering. You know i don’t need to do the session, but it seems as i always say nobody ends up in that session by mistake, you know, people and it’s been interesting people, aaron really tough situations, very emotional, you know, that the social sector is a tough space to be in, and people are very passionate and it can be really charged, but we do our best to try to give people some tools, maybe walk through these these these difficult situations, all right? And in the six years i’ve been doing, you’ve never been challenged by anyone who said, no, that guy is the ceo. That guy he’s the founder from hell, no never had that challenge, but having no, but there, you know, again, i would say i only have one perspective to bring to it there are people that have different perspectives and say that would never work that are absolutely, and i’ve had some of them as guests, but but we’re getting the founders perspective, which i haven’t had before. Yeah, let’s, start with your history with the organization. I’m the cofounder, and now i sit is president we started are working. Paul. Seventeen years ago, it was around an expedition that had been climbing in the fall for a number of years and small expedition to climb. Memoria twenty three thousand four hundred foot what’s. The name of it from maury fremery three miles to the west of everest, on the nepal tibet border. Doing a new route has never been climbed. I was on there and eighty nine now back in ninety eight and in ninety eight found out about small girls home that was financially failing. Raised money in my local community to help bail this girl’s home out. That was the genesis of our work. Where’s. Your community. Where were you living then? I was living the vail, colorado, that and shortly after that moved to where were based now in ridgeway, colorado, southwest corner of colorado. Down by tell you right now. Okay. And how long have you not been the executive director? I was executive director for the first thirteen years. Okay? And then we started into a process of identifying we wanted to shift from there and bring someone in with better financial skills than than myself. But and it was early, early on, it was identified by my board that they want me to say connected to the organization i carried the history carried a lot of the donors carried those relationships on. They want me to become the development director. Okay, i’m going to get to the details of how that all played out. That’s that’s, critical part. But so it was for you, it’s been four years now since you were executive director. Is that right? Correct. Okay. And there is a new executive director. Hired and same person have been in the position for years. Yeah, we feel like we we did a really thorough an extensive search. Get a job and he’s still on the job saying individual okay. Okay, so, he’s uh, he’s executive director. Um correct, mark. Mark. And you won’t get a shot at mark. Yeah. Mark rikers, mark rikers. And you’re the president. Correct. Okay. Let’s, um, let’s start with the board’s role in this what i think is really interesting eyes that it was the board recommendation that you stay it wasn’t you as founder dictating. I want to stay with this organization. The impetus for having you remain came from the board. And also the impetus toe hyre an executive director came from the board, so it was to phase it was like we need to. And as my board affectionately refers to jim, if you get hit by a bus, this organization could potentially go down in flames. So the impetus came from some very skilled and wise board members that had experience in the nonprofit world. Had experiences change management leaders. We’re just very savvy and saying let’s, make our organization more sustainable and increase our bench bench strength. There had to be a lot of trust, a cross, you and the board, i mean, you had to believe that the board actually wanted you two remain and in the capacity that you ultimately became president and which is chief fundraiser for right, you have put a lot of faith in you’re in your board members telling you that believing what they were telling you. Yeah, and this is a really an emotional space for founder’s teo walk into because you could certainly believed that you were in a situation where you were being replaced, you and i that certainly took ah, was it took a while for me? Because that was my first reaction. I don’t think it was an unusual one. Hyre this changing roles and organizations is really tough work, i think it’s exceptionally tough if you’re the founder, if you were the very first person working on your own, you know, from monstrous hours and generating the organization, but pardon parcel of that is that i always had the belief that eventually, you know, in organizations everyone leaves eventually, and i always had in the back of my mind that the most important thing was that this organization lived on beyond me. And this was certainly a major stepping stone to that. What about the, uh, the composition of the board you mentioned? You had some change management people on your board talk about the importance of having the right skill set on your board. Help this transition? Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s, kind of like who’s. Do you have the right people on the bus? You know, and early on in our evolution, you know, i was way had a lot of people that knew a lot about paul, and that was great. But they were all foreigners, you know? And they had great skill, great passion and that but the evolution has been to bring in people with sound non-profit experience people who were changed management leaders that basically had their own consulting firms that actually helped corporal eaters and non-profit lee just walk through these really challenging transitions in the evolution of the nor is a t had that expertise. Oh, yeah, we have that three people that change management expertise. Yeah, that was that was really hughes. And then more than anything, maybe was that i had specifically two individuals that i trust implicitly, that they actually have my back. And that that boardmember board members that this was, you know, they had long non-profit experience, but that this was the way the organization could go and that i was not being, you know, put out to pasture and that that that this would be a very fascinating time for me to be able to find out what i really wanted to do instead of having to do everything you also had to trust that the board has the best interests of z in mind that and that their vision is at least, you know, parallel to yours. I mean, it may not be identical, but they yeah, they’ve got z in their in their hearts and and that that really, you know, one of the two individuals i trusted implicitly had been there at the first board meeting in my kitchen table, you know? And now we’re actually we have our board meetings at his board table on the fourteenth floor in denver office, you know? So i mean, that’s been a long evolution, but that had been fourteen years of that relationship, so yeah, i really knew that they had my had my back, a lot of trust ways, but not without a lot of emotion. And a lot of baggage, i’m sure is a tough, you know, you know, talk about the emotional, you know, you just just feel, is this the where am i actually going? What was actually going to happen to the organization, you know, what’s gonna happen to me because i really impassioned about this work and want to stay in this space, you know? So yeah, a lot, a lot of challenges and a lot of ups and downs, and i would say that that period tow walk through that and feel confident it took a couple months and they really took a couple months, and we laid out a very deliberate plan on the evolution of this after about a month into it. So i was starting to get on board a month of emotion. Yeah, the emotion continued, but then it started become irrational process. Yeah, because it started to develop and expand into what could be and i didn’t see that initially. Oi! All i saw was what what? What i thought was being replaced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Initially that’s it. Yeah, yeah. All right. But you obviously overcame that. Yeah. Oh, and to add to that in this process and, you know, one thing that was really fascinating is that our entire board bought into the concept that as we moved into a new executive director, that the executive committee and myself would be the five people that would decide, and it would be unanimous on who we decide if we didn’t find them knives like your daddy way did not find that person, we would scrap it for six months and then come back okay, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way dahna we’re going to get to the search. I spent more time on the board. You mentioned you had a lot of longevity on the board. Not not just the one. The one guy who started your kitchen table and now you’re in his fifteenth floor. Yeah, but you you yeah, you had other board members with long longevity. They understand the organization. They they have the best interests of z in their hearts to jury. I mean in our by-laws boardmember sze sit for three years, they have to be voted back on for another three years. They could walk away from the organization or immediately go to an advisory board that gets all the information doesn’t vote. After a year, they could be voted back on the board, but wave have everything we’ve had people that stayed a long time. We’ve had people that cycled and cycled out. I think that’s a really healthy for the cycle more than anything. New ideas, new energy, new vision. You know, new new things. Yeah. Onda connection disease work. Yeah, and and that that solid underpinning has always been that people have been there to anchorage, not just myself. Let’s, talk about the the search, the search process. You said it was the executive committee of the board for people and you. And did it have to be? You had to be unanimous. Vote on who the successor would be. Okay. He obviously had a lot of you have to be a lot of trust in that process. Yeah, from the rest of the board members. So well. And you too, you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All five of you had to. Well, actually, the whole board had trust the process. Yeah, they had delegated the vote to the executive committee and you, but the whole board had trust this process. Yeah, they really did. And so there were some mechanisms that engaged staff engaged other board members, whether it was an opportunity for the three final candidates to be in our office and ridgeway and for people to come there and meet them and to sit in on a conference call with all the board members anyone that wanted to patch in, we actually had the three final candidates work with our financial officer for an hour and at ask questions around that they were in a closed room also with our the paul country director who was in country at that time. So they they all spent time with them. So it was really a deal where everyone had input. But there were five the executive committee and myself that were decided. Maybe a little detail. But i’m interested. What was the mechanism for staff to give feedback to the five people who are going to do the vote? It was basically threw the board chair. So they say the staff whether it was the financial officer in the whole country. Director they gave that him. Put directly back to the board chair on the board chair. Disseminated that to this election. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, was there a outside search consultant? No. No, we all did. With is completely just posted it publicly. Well, we posted it in all sorts of spaces, you know, on you threw the peace corps on on. Were located in a remote area in western colorado. So speak on the western slope. So we had lots of people in the denver area. Certainly. Um what we ended up through our network’s way ended up with sixty for paper applications. Now on dh. So that was what we started to wed our way through and pretty short. Or there were a third that it was really crystal clear they were, yeah, yeah, way too much of a stretch, and people asking to remove work remotely in new york for this job. So am i, and that was deal that we want people in the office, you know, you know, face-to-face on dh, so that was a real process, and and once we cold that list, then all of the board members were assigned. The executive committee search committee were assigned a certain amount of people to deal with, to make phone calls, too. There was a list of questions to be asked, and then that information was brought back to the search committee, and we started to, just with a little bit, whittle it down. Job the job descriptions, you’ve identified that as being critical, setting boundaries abound. What? What? You’re what you’re gonna be doing as president and not doing with the exec director is going to be doing let’s. Let’s flush that out job description. Yeah, that was that was really critical, you know, so to speak. What? You know, what was mark’s role? What was my role in what was our rule? You know, and how are we gonna work? Basically in the same office. And how is that going to make this kind of lateral move to be in charge of of all development, really focusing and digging into that, which is something i certainly had done, but i was doing a lot of different things, too. So that was just really critical and also having our executive committee really get into the weeds on that. And then, you know, it’s all about really owning that once it won once things transition about assuring mark who became executive director, but during the process, maybe at the point where he was offered the job or at some point he had to be reassured that this was not going to be a founder. Syndrome situation that he was stepping into. Yeah, what was that like? How did you well, we did that with all of our three final buy-in indefinite detail. And that was something that we put forth. This is how this out was, is how it’s changing. Okay? And, um, you know, i mean, this is probably a good time and, uh, it’s about somebody’s ego and, you know, what’s the what’s, the main driver, is it about you is about control, is it about not allowing the organization to grow past you and evolved past you? Or you’re going to keep a stranglehold on it on dh make things miserable for not only marked, but everybody else in the organization, so i want to double it more detail on how those three candidates got god assured that this was not going to be a disaster situation they’d be walking into mean, it had to be more than just the written job descriptions. Yeah. You know, i think one of the things that was really interesting is we weren’t, you know, quite often in this the executive director search or changes organization. What happens is it’s because the, you know, the staff’s upset programs are not being delivered properly, and financially, you’re you’re in dire straits. I mean, it was a kind of that’s, a standard, why you’re changing. We actually came from a really strong position, and we felt it was inappropriate time to make the shift financially. We were in good shape. Um, staff was quite happy with what they were doing, and programs were certainly evolving at that time. So, you know, nothing was perfect, but we certainly were not in the crisis mode. That’s quite often, what happened, so we were on the front end of this, but we were again realizing the vulnerability of of me is found, yeah. And they also had to be assured that you personally wood abide by the job description. Yeah, on everything that’s being said. I mean, you know, this is all in writing, and it all sounds good, but, you know, i was the new executive director could walk in and, you know, this guy jim is just blowing everything out of the water that we talked about, and now i’m in a bad spot. Yeah, yeah, yeah latto latto i had to trust you. Yeah, and that it’s a pretty standard situation. Yeah, you know, it’s pretty standard that it be negative. Yeah, is that demanded? And quite often, i do hear that people cycle through that know that first executive director didn’t work out. Now we’re into our second one, you know, we were fortunate and maybe i don’t know why, but i guess mark and the two other candidates believe me, you know, i mean, i really think it comes down to you know that and reassurance from the executive committee, no more trust, yeah was allowed to rest there’s a lot of stress. Yeah, we’re taking a big step here. Like i said, the paper documents are fine. But in the end, they could be end up being meaningless. It comes down to a human connection and right and trust. Yeah. Yeah, ego. You mentioned it before. So let’s, explore that it’s mostly your ego that you had keep in check for the for the good of z. Yeah, i think so. I mean, i’m no, no expert trust me, but i guess at the core of this is i’ve always held a belief of doing your best to hyre smart people than yourself on that doesn’t intimidate me. It makes us a stronger organization. So that’s a core belief of mine. Mine. Um, i why would i not try to bring the best and the brightest board members to the board, the best and brightest staff to the board? Um, that’s. Just a core belief of mind that that’s what’s going to make a sustainable organization, you know, that’s where the oil starts for me. All right, you know, and, um, hyre, you know, again, that core belief that my biggest responsibilities, this organization, lives on beyond me. Yeah. It’s bigger than you. It is much bigger than me. And then you, you know, from one person operation tow for people in colorado in twenty five in the fall. And, you know, fourteen girls is where we started serving over. Thirty thousand people now it’s way beyond me. I play an inter call roll i have in trickle power because i am the founder, but i’m on ly a piece of the puzzle and that’s that’s a healthy place for nor ization obviously there was a transition period where you had a share, a lot of corporate knowledge, with mark as the new executive director. Absolutely. You know, one of the things that was interesting way we’re in an office situation where we had two basic office rooms, and initially mark and i were going to work in the same room, and i just was, like, that’s not gonna work. We took the office next door. We’re connected by a door, but we can be close and have our own private space that i didn’t want him to feel that i was looking over his shoulder. Yeah, ever, you know, but there was institutional knowledge, you know, of our organization and what we done and our relationships and our funding and our partners and how we did things and where we worked and all that stuff that had to be transferred over and that takes time. That’s just a constant process of answering those questions mark was incredibly quick study, but i mean, i can’t imagine i’m thinking back out for years now, but, you know, he was really getting it after four months, six months a year, you know, it takes time and it’s, you know, and transferring those relationships, introducing him to those relationships is key and again, taking that letter will move away from that, you know, so that’s, what an and in a way, we also identified that it was an opportunity for me to become maur engaged in the board on dh i now sit on the board, i had never sat on the board. First of all, no, there was not in exhibition zoho ous founder, no, no one i was fonder, i said as the executive director, but i did not sit on the board and you don’t have a vote now. I didn’t have a vote that i don’t have a way out or not right now you’re on the board, but you don’t have a vote, correct. So i’m basically straddled the board on the kind of clutch between the staff from the boy. Why that decision to not have a vote i already have enough power is what the board felt, and i think that that’s the accurate, that definitely was another risk situation for me where i was like, wow, i’m losing control. Yeah, but founders have immense historical knowledge, respond relationships, they have immense power with organizations. And although that did feel uncomfortable, it was the right decision, you know, and quite a lot, itjust wass, you know, a lot of this feels like it has to be the right people. I mean, here you’re you’re you’re saying, you know, you struggled with not getting a vote being on the board, but not having a vote, but in order for this to work and for the board to be comfortable, you had teo swallow that you had to accept that and, you know, another person might not have been able to yeah, a lot of this, yeah, trust and and the personalities that people have to be right now, if it’s not the right people, then you’re not gonna have the trust and and we’re gonna end up with what i’ve had guests on the show say that which is when the founder leaves the leadership role here. She has got a several ties. Yeah, that’s really the default, right? But it sounds like if you arrive the right personalities, you don’t have to you don’t. Except the default. Well, i think there’s a couple things that play into that one is most times when people are shifting executive directors, it is a crisis situation, and maybe the management wasn’t very strong for so that’s that’s a pretty standard situation. I mean, for us, we were coming from ah, solid footing and the thing that was the constant phrase that we we used in our search was we need to find somebody with correct emotional intelligence to come in and not gutsy, but to build on pond what we’ve already created. And so that was it was really the baseline kind of tag line that way worked off the position as president created opportunities for you that you didn’t have as dahna in the leadership relies founder yeah, let’s talk a little about that because i think it was important for you to recognize that there was opportunity for you and the board was making that clear in the new president role. Yeah, and there i think the opportunity around it was too deep in my relationship with board members. And as i say, be that clutch between what’s happening in our work on the paul what’s happening with staff and that but a zai moved into the development roll exclusively. Really? What happened is at a time. I mean, i had time to follow some more creative, creative things i mentioned there was a knopper to nitti where we were invited from a little town that’s less than a thousand people in ridgeway, colorado, to create enter an event in italy and in france, where there’s a charity cycling about where it’s it’s basically a fancy camp for cyclists that i mean, they have massages and right insane amounts. That was three days of riding with over twenty five thousand feet of climbing racing. And so basically, we were able to bring in individuals who had financial capacity to commit to raising a significant amount of money for the foundation. Through this, this leverage point through their friends, and you would not have been able to pursue this no way and found a rolling no on and much band with way too much band with and then what happened out there that is we actually then deepened our relationships in london in the uk and we were a register as a charity in the uk. So now there’s the zi foundation uk and we have a board of trustees over there and they basically carried the work of the zi foundation in the uk raise funds for the paul that money flows through the u s and then in the fall so that basically become a whole new revenue stream that we never had nor would they have had anywhere near the bandwidth to take something like that on so it’s all those opportunities you know and looking around the corner what’s next and being very creative about it and that’s been very, very rewarding for me simple question in in the wrap up why the title president instead of director of development or institutional advancement? I think the board really wanted to honor my legacy with the organization, you know? And instead of just director of della development, they just wanted to honor my title is cofounder present your morning thank you for sharing means really some personal stuff talking about trust and ego and you know, being the right personality, so i want to thank you very much for for sharing. Yeah, thanks. I’m happy to share with anybody. It’s it’s, i think one of the things that happens is in these non-profits u u you changed from being student sometimes teacher, and i’ve been able to share this with a lot of people. It’s tough work at that level and i’m happy to share with anyone. So thank you for having me on pleasure you’ll find him at xero foundation dot org’s, it’s dc i foundation dot org’s tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage at the opportunity collaboration twenty fifteen on the beach i know you hear the waves breaking in its top of mexico. Thanks so much for being with us. Your d our plan with dar viv arika coming up first. Pursuant they’re content paper. They want you to know about its breakthrough fund-raising like all their content it’s free and this one is going to train you on break through thinking where you will learn how to solve the challenges facing your office, how to set a breakthrough outcome and what that means and how to create a culture of breakthrough thinking. In your office breakthrough, you can do it. There’s good ideas in here. The paper is breakthrough fund-raising and you get it at pursuing dot com click resource is and then click content papers. We’ll be spelling spelling bees that raise money. It’s a fun night out at a local place and it’s not your seventh grade spelling bee. You need to raise more money. I know you do. You can do it. We be e spelling dot com. We’ll help you. We’ll be spelling now. Time for tony’s take two the charleston principles this is something that relates to charity registration, which talked about love three weeks ago or so roughly three, four weeks ago was the video on that charity registration morass. Now i’ve got one on the charleston principles. They were created in charleston, south carolina, and they have very good suggestions for states it za recommended body of laws for states to adopt around charity registration to try to standardize things. Trouble is ah, lots of states haven’t adopted them. It’s not too clear where they’re adopted. Eso it’s not really all that standardized, but they’re good ideas and they are in some states the charleston principles. Check out the video at tony martignetti dot com it will help you with charity registration. And as always, i can if can you help with that, too? That is tony’s take two here’s darby barca with your disaster recovery plan welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc twenty fifteen the non-profit technology conference were in day two. We’re in austin, texas, at the convention center and my guest is dar vivir ca she’s vice president of technology for lift a lefty, and her workshop topic is avoiding disaster. A practical guide for backup systems and disaster recovery planning you’re welcome. Thank you very much. Good to be here. It’s! A pleasure to have you ah, this day two we’re highlighting one swag item at and ntc her for interview. And, uh, i have a double chip biscotti from a sputnik moment. The hashtag is hashtag is sputnik smiles and i’m told that the glasses go with the biscotti so this is essential. This is this interview’s swag moment. Thank you very much. Sputnik smiles and it goes into the goes into the swag collection. There it is. Okay, door. Um we need to know some. Ah little basic turn. Well, you know what, before we even get into why is disaster recovery and the related and included back-up so i don’t know if it’s just for gotten ignored, not done. Well, what inspired the session is a organization i used to work for. We were required by auditors to do a disaster recovery plans. So when it came time for the annual audit, i got out the current disaster recovery plan. It went all right, i’m going to go ahead and update this, and when i discovered, when i read the plan was there were servers that were eight years gone for last eight years server and reading the planet was very clear that what the previous person had done was simply change the date and update the plan for auditors. And as i thought about it and talk to other people, i found that that actually happens a lot people. It’s, d r is sort of that thing they don’t have time for because no one ever thinks it’ll happen to them, so you push it off, you push it off, and you either just download the template, you know, a template off the internet. And you slap a date on it and basically fill it out just for the auditors. But a lot of organizations never actually think through their disaster recovery, they don’t get into the details, they don’t worry about it, and then when a disaster actually happens to them, they’re sort of stuck. You don’t have a plan that i don’t have a functioning christian, and they’ve never tried it out. So that was what inspired the session, and as we dug into it, we we tried to give the thirty thousand foot view because disaster it cover, you know, there’s an entire industry, the deals with technology, disaster recovery. You can spend days on this topic, and obviously we didn’t have days we had a ninety minute session, so we tried to give the thirty thousand foot view of the practical items you need to pay attention to if you’re not confident in your organisation’s d our plan, if you i don’t have a d our plan or if you do and you really don’t, you know, you think it really needs an overhaul that sort of the top ten of items of what you should really be looking at. When you’re dealing with disaster recovering backups and we tried to give some several practical examples myself and the other speaker and andrew, who could not make it this morning of disasters we’ve had to deal with as well as other well known ones. Yeah, okay, do we need some basic language? Wait, get into the d r disaster recovery topic short jr is one of them disaster recovers, often referred to his d r it’s often spoken about in terms of business continuity or bc, which is sort of the larger plan for the entire organisation. Should’ve disaster strike there’s you know, there’s very d are specific things such as our poet recovery point objective that we could talk about your rto, which is recovery time objective there’s very specific language like that for disasters. It’s usually just referred to d ours. So whenever we say d arts disaster recovery okay, we’ll see if we get into those eyes and i could explain this week. Okay, um, all right, so clearly we should have a disaster recovery written just recovery plan. Even if we’re an organization that small enough that doesn’t have an annual audit, we still should have. Something in place? Yes. Okay. What belongs in our day? Our plan top ten things. You need a contact list for your team. So if you have a top ten of the d r i do of what should your plan d our plan? You know, it could be anything from a five page outline that just covers the basics. And in in our sessions slides, which i’ve posted in the ntc library gives it some good resource is for doing a d our plan or it could be a, you know, a huge hundred page document. It covers absolutely every aspect of business continuity or something in between. It’s going very by organization. And the reality is, if you’re a small organisation with a small team, you might only be able to do the five page outline. But that’s better than nothing. That’s better than no d our plan or a d r plan that realistically hasn’t been updated in the last ten years. But i would say, you know, the top ten you really should have in your day. Our plan is number one. A contact list for your team members. You know what is the contact for? Your team, folks, your business continuity folks, if you normally would get that out of your email and you’re in a disastrous situation, you know you can’t get to your email or, you know, like we’re ever going through. And i want listeners to know that she’s doing this without notes, i it seems very confident that she’s got the and hopefully i remember altum in-kind get seven out of seven or eight of ten will be ecstatic, but so continue. Oh, but i want to say, yeah, as we’re going through, consider two organizations that may not have someone devoted to it correctly. This is our listeners are small and midsize non-profits right? They very, very well just all be outsourced, or it falls on the executive director’s desk. Excellent point. Would you cover that in the session? So t finish at the top ten contactless three team members contact list for your vendors, a call tree and some sort of communications. How do you tell your organization in your members that you’ve had a disaster? Either your servers have gone down your parts of burst and your communications air underwater. How do you do that? What is your? Network look like so. Network diagram process. Outline how you’re actually going to do your disaster recovery. A timeline? How long do you expect these activities to take before you, khun b live again? A list of systems and applications that you’re going to recover. If you’re a large enough or gore, you can afford a hot site was called a hot or warm site where you can immediately switch over two other equipment. You know, information about that. You’d need that to start your recovery. And then also information about your backups. You know, who’s got your back ups? What system are you using? How do you, you know? Get those back. So those air sort of like the top ten things or d our plan should have alright, let’s dive into the the process. Okay? A bit is that intrigues me, bond. Hopefully listeners? I think so. I think i have a fare beat on what’s. Interesting. I hope i do. Um, yeah. What? How do we start to think about what our dear process should be? But first, i have to think about what all could be a disaster for your organization. A lot of people think. About things you know, earthquakes, hurricane, sandy, hurricane katrina, but it could also be water pipes bursting in your building. That is one of the most common thing if your server is not properly protected. Which a lot of a lot of stuck in closets ah, dripping pipe water. We call those water events and that seems to be the most common thing departments encounter is leaking pipes in the building or some sort of a flooding situation, but it could also be an elektronik disaster. Such, i’ve worked at an organization that underwent what’s called a ddos attack, which is a distributed denial of service. It took out our entire web presence because malicious hacker hacker went after that’s where there’s millions of right network and they just flood your network seconds you’re overloaded and yeah, and that’s a disaster situation. So one why would they attack like that? Why wasn’t non-profit attack malicious? The cp dot organ are attacked out with avon marchenese travon martin decision. Folks attacked our our petition site way. We were able to get it back online, but for a couple of hours yeah, we were off line and that could be considered a disaster situation for sure. Yeah? How do you help us think through what potential disasters are not even identify them all i think about what could affect your or what you wear, you vulnerable? Some of the things we talked about in the session where? Think about how would you get back online if the’s, various things happened to you are your are your services sort of in the cloud? Do you have servers on site and start there when thinking about your process is what would you have to recover if these various scenarios affected you or with these various scenarios? Scenarios affect you. If your website is completely outsourced to a vendor that has de dos protection. Okay, that’s not a scenario you have to worry about so kind of analyze it and every organs going to be different. You know, if you live on the west coast, you’re probably concerned more about earthquakes than other regions. So it’s it’s going to vary for each organization, what sort of disaster you’re going to be worried about? And then you start getting down into the practical nuts and bolts in terms of who are your disaster recovery people, who’s. Your team, if you’re really small lorry, that might just be you or as you mentioned before, if you’re using outsourced, manage service provider and your vendors responsible for that, make sure your vendor has a d our plan for you? Ah lot of folks just assume your vendors taking care of that, but when it comes right down to it, do they actually have d our experience? Can they recover your items? Actually sit down and have that conversation? Because so many of the small org’s, as you pointed out, do use outsourced thes days? There’s yeah, there’s a lot of manage service providers that specialize in non-profit, but you need to have that conversation. Don’t wait till you’re under a disaster scenario to discover that groups they don’t actually have that experience have that conversation ahead of time. What else belongs in our process? Outlined in your process that outline? If you’ve got a another site, either a cold, a warmer, hot site or if your stuff is based in the cloud, where would you recover to? The hot side is some place you go to drink cold water or hot? Sure, a cold site would be where? You’ve got another location let’s say you have a dozen servers at your location and in the case of your building, being inaccessible or underwater, a cold site would be where you’ve got another location you could go to, but you don’t really have any equipment stage there, but it is another location you can begin operations out if that’s a cold sight there’s nothing ready to go, but you’ve got a sight a warm site would be where you sort of have a skeletal equipment there it’s far less capacity than you’re currently at, but you’ve got something there it’s not live, but you’ve got stuff ready to go that you can restore to and get going. And a hot site is where you can flip over immediately. Your live replicating to somewhere else, it’s ready to go? It might not be full capacity, so it might not have, you know, full blown data line size that you’re used to might not have your full range of service, but it is live and you could switch over near instantaneously. That’s a hot site, ok, eso you’d want that in your process and you’re going to want to think about what are you restoring and that’s, where we get into the backups? What comes first and that’s, where you start getting into terms such as recovery point objective and recovery time objective those air to very common d our terms recovery time is how far back are you recovering too? And what does that mean for each system? So if it’s your donorsearch system that’s probably fairly critical, you want a recent restore of that? If it’s a system that doesn’t change very much, maybe a week ago restores okay for that sorry that’s recovery point objective recovery time objective is how long does it take you to get back online after a disaster? You know, ifyou’ve got to download your data from an external source. Has anyone thought about how long that’s going to take you to get the data back? Is it going to take you fifteen hours or three days? So it’s in a lot of folks don’t think about that ahead of time, they just go oh, you know, we’ll we’ll pull it back down if we have a disaster, but they don’t think about instead of their nice normal data communications, they’re going to be on a tiny d s l line trying to pull down one hundred fifty gigs of information and it’s going to take a week to get it back down. I have to say you’re very good about explaining terms and thank you, proper radio. We have jargon jail? Yes, we try not to neo-sage transcend you haven’t transgressed cause your immediate about explaining exactly what recovery point river and recovery time objectives are. It could be very confusing. You know, if you don’t understand the terms in tech, you can be confusing what folks are talking about, and that was one of the the focus is of our station session is making it less confusing and being very practical, practical about what you can or cannot do, and if folks go and look at our slides, they’ll see on several of the items we did a good better best, and we tried to talk about that all throughout the session because we realized again for a small ork or, you know, even a large order that just doesn’t have the resources to devote to it. You might not be able to do best practice, but you could at least try. A good practice that would be better than nothing. And then so we do a good, better best for each. Each type of thing, like what does a good d our plan look like versus the best day our plan, and at least try and get to that. Good, because at least you’ll have something. And it could be a continuum where you try and improve it along the way. But you’ve got to start somewhere it’s. Better than just ignoring it, which is what happens at a lot of places. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guest directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Duitz i’m chuck longfield of blackbaud. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Do we need thio prioritize what’s mission critical and yes, we can work with out for a time. Yes, how do we determine that? Definitely we talk about that in terms of its not just a knight each decision either because we may think that the emails the most critical thing out there, but development may see the donor system as the most critical out there program might think that the case management system is the most critical out there, so you finance wants their account, they want their accounting system up. Obviously you’ve got to have an order in which you bring these things up. You’re probably not gonna have enough staff for bandwith or, you know, equipment to bring everything back online, so there needs to be and hopefully your executive team would be involved in deciding for the organization what is most critical in what order are you going to bring those things up? And that needs to be part of your d r plan? Because otherwise, if you’re in a disaster scenario, you’re not going to know where to start and there’s going to be a lot of disagreement of who starts where so you guys need to decide on the order, okay, we solve a few minutes left, but what more can we say about d r and related? Back-up that’s not going to wait till i’m back up because i think we could do a little bit in terms of d r i n st key points on backups are check them because a lot of time, yes, monthly or quarterly, at least is anyone looking at your back-up back-up work-life one of the scenarios that we talked about that actually happened to my co speaker, andrew, was that their server room flooded and it hit their razor’s edge server, which is their entire c, m, s, c r, e, m and donorsearch system, and they thought it was backing up, but no one had actually check the backups in the last two months, and it was on, and it was not s o in terms of back-up just typical, you know, pay attention to the maintenance. What do you backing up? Has anyone checked it? And again, if you’re using a manage service provider, make sure if they’re responsible for for looking at your backups of managing them, make sure they’re doing that. You know, double check and make sure that they understand that your backups are critical and they can’t just ignore the alerts about your backups. You know, you don’t want to be in the unpleasant situation of three of our servers just got flooded. We need the data and discover nobody was backing it up. It ain’t exactly okay, all right, anything else, you wanna leave people about back-up before we go to the broader diar? No, i think that’s good for those were the highlights for it. All right, so back to the disaster recovery. What more can we say about that? There are going to be a lot of watches if you’re in a large d our situation. And so one of things we stress is one getting down into the details of your d. Our plan. Before disaster hits. You see, if you’ve never thought about how you’re actually going to do the restores air, actually, how you’re going to be rebuild those servers. You need two ahead of time. A lot of folks never practiced have a fire drill. I hate fire drill, but and you don’t have a live fire drills in this case, it might be a live fire drill. You don’t want to have that, so you should make some effort to practice, even if it’s just something small, you know, trying to restore one server. I mentioned in this session that i was put in a situation years ago at johns hopkins university, where we were required to have verification of live tr practice, so i was put in a room that had a table, a telephone, a server, and we were carrying two laptops and we couldn’t come out of the room, and so we had completely restored our domain. We had a set of backups on the thumb drive and added the second laptop to that domain improve that we had restored the domain, and an independent person that was not connected to our department was monitoring to make sure we had done it, and we had to prove it, and that was an eye opening experience is as experienced as i was doing that i’d never done it live, and it took me three tries to do it so that’s, right? Encourage folks to really try and practice this stuff ahead of time and get down into the you know, the weeds on their on their d our plan and, uh and also to think about it, you weren’t fired because wayne johnson no, no, no, i actually like too much, john soft. No, we we did complete it within the time frame, but we were a little startled when we discovered that we thought we knew how to do it first time out, and we kept making little mistakes. There were two of us and they’re doing it, and we were surprised ourselves that we thought, oh, of course we know this. This is not a problem, but no, we were making little mistakes because we didn’t have the documentation down. A specific is it needed to be. And so that was a very eye opening experience. There’s a couple of their d r gotchas we talked about, which is crossed. People don’t think about the cost ahead of time. How much is going to cost to get you that data back in the instance of my co presenter who had the damaged drives, they weren’t expecting a near ten thousand dollars cost to recover those drives, but that’s what happened when they didn’t have the backups? They had to take those hard drives to a data recovery place, and the price tag was nearly ten thousand dollars. Dealing with insurance is another big one that people don’t think about having to account for all of the equipment that was lost, and dealing with that insurance morass often gets dumped on the auntie department in a small organization. There’s not, you know, a legal department that’s going to deal with that it’s going to be you so to, you know, kind of talk to your insurance provider ahead of time and see what all you have to deal with in a disaster situation. So you don’t get an unpleasant surprise if you’re ever in one a cz well on the insurance topic, just are you covered? Exactly what you think is your equipment covered? And what do you have to do with that? In terms of accounting for it? If you suffer a disaster, you know the gooch is we get so a couple of minutes, if if oh for days. About consciously trying to think about somebody we don’t hold back on non-profit video uh, i think some of the other ones that we covered in their thick wit mint again to the cost, how much is it going to cost you? Two gets new equipment and did you account for that when you were doing your d our plan and a time to recover? A lot of folks don’t understand how long it may take them to do a recovery and also deciding what is important and what is not important, not just in terms of what should be restored in what order, but in terms of practical things, do you really need to restore your domain? Er, or could you just start over from scratch if your domain only contains maybe fifty accounts and doesn’t have any associated servers faster for you to just start over and just recreate the domain immediately? Especially if a lot of your emails in office three, sixty five or google maps, you could reconnect it very quickly. So, you know, thinking about more practical gotsch is like that with that, you should think about have time, you know, obviously it’s that’s the best practice to think of all these details, and we realised folks may not be able to, so we provided someone sheets and some samples of them of just quick, yes or no questions and thinking this through and things to think about and where will we that is not notice provoc radio has a professional sound i don’t know about ntcdinosaur ten, but that was a way over there. They’re on their own. They can come to us for expertise if they if they need to, but, um, see, now i messed myself up because i ask you about something, but we were just talking about how much, how long will actually take you to recover things and whether or not you should practically skipped recovering something because it might be faster to rebuild it. Okay, i have a follow up to that my smart ass humor, maybe lose it. All right, so why did you leave us with one take away d, r or back-up the session was a little bit misnamed because technically, you’re not going to avoid a disaster. You really can’t. In many cases, you’re not gonna avoid the flood you’re not going to avoid. The earthquake if you’re in that region, so you need to plan on how to deal with it. So it’s more like avoiding avoiding your d are becoming the disaster because you’re not going to avoid the disaster itself, so you might as well plan for it. Outstanding. Thank you very much. Door. Thank you much. Darby america, vice president of technology for lift. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference two thousand fifteen. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Next week it will not be fermentation. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. And by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com a creative producers. Claire miree off. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, but he mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. And this music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the odd learned ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful posts here’s aria finger, ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge. Somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were. And, uh and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 16, 2016: Happy Healthy Nonprofit & Your Job Descriptions

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Beth Kanter & Aliza Sherman: Happy Healthy Nonprofit

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Beth Kanter returns with co-author Aliza Sherman and their new book is “The Happy, Healthy Nonprofit.” They urge you to make employee wellbeing as important as organizational performance. We talk through how. (Recorded at the 2016 Nonprofit Technology Conference)

 

 

Heather Carpenter: Your Job Descriptions

Heather Carpenter is co-author of the book “The Talent Development Platform” and she’s got advice for your often-rushed-through, lifted-off-the-web job descriptions. (Hint: Stop doing that!) (Originally aired September 25, 2015)

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with quadra tano pia, if i saw that you missed today’s show happy, healthy non-profit beth cancer returns with co author eliza sherman, and their new book is the happy, healthy non-profit they urge you to make employees well being as important as organizational performance that was recorded at the twenty sixteen non-profit technology conference and your job descriptions have the carpenter is co author of the book the talent development platform and she’s got advice for your often rushed through lifted off the web job descriptions hint don’t do it. Originally aired on september fifteenth of last year on tony’s take two my new plan e-giving video responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We be spelling dot com here’s the happy, healthy non-profit and this book that they’re about to talk about is number nine in the amazon non-profit books category. Let’s get this thing, but just by the darn thing skyrocketed. Let’s. Get it up to number eight. Let’s. Get it? No, we get it upto one by this book the happy, healthy non-profit hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc non-profit technology conference this is also part of ntc conversations. We are in san jose, california, at the convention center and with me now are beth cantor and eliza sherman. They’re session topic is happy, healthy non-profit using tech for healthier work and life we’re going to get to that very shortly. First have to highlight our swag item for the interview and that is this papal very fine crafted would a pencil those of you just on ntcdinosaur say shins and the audio stream i’m sorry you can’t see the fine craftsmanship and the way this is burned in the papal logo burned into the woods like i used to have a little wood burning kit when i was a cub scout and we usedto carve nasty words and our names but more nasty words independent to wood pieces, and then burned them before our parents saw them and then also there’s this nice papal book notebook very handy for keeping track of your wellness and health goals and your and your achievement toward them. This goes into our swag pile for the day, second day here at ntc and ah, what a not so subtle transition i made teo happy health and wellness. The two of you are working on a book. Beth, eliza and what’s. The book is called happy healthy non-profit is that right? Yes. Strategies for impact without burnout, judges for impact. Without burnett, when can we expect this book it will publish in october. Okay, your co authoring eyes there. Another author. We should know the two of you. Okay, now, beth, you’re last year and t c you were here talking about walking as part of work. Not as not as part of your health and wellness regimen, but working, walking at work. You have a you have a wellness kick? Yes, you know well, that was the genesis for this book. Because it’s not just about individual wellness. It’s also about well being in the workplace. Thie organizational health. Yes. So i see we’re talking to an organizational level now. Yes. And not just health, not just health. Because, you know, health is important that’s, physical energy, but well being, the well being of the organization, well being of the staff, which translates translates into the well being of the organization and its stakeholders. Okay, eliza, now i neglected teo properly introduce either of you. I’m sorry. Beth is a master trainer, speaker, author and blogger at beth blawg, and eliza is tech wellness advocate tequila’s on dh, author of eleven books. This will be your twelve, right. This is the eleventh, so ten, but she’s, just such a great writer and collaborator, i just i just thought it was twelve. You have an interesting this deeply are all your books about health and wellness? Actually, all of my books are about business or the internet. In fact, i started the first woman on internet company back in the nineties, and so i wrote a couple of books, cyber girl books about the internet for women, and this came out of my interest in tech wellness, which is obviously an important part of our lives because of everything we’ve been doing with all of our gadgets. And i got in touch with bath and she’s into the walking and she’s into all of the sleep habits, and we combined it all and that’s what the book is going to be. Okay, wait, hold on. Beth tech wellness. What is tech wellness? What do you mean by that? Well, if you think about the fact that the technology we use has gotten smaller and portable and nobody has taught us how to use it well, so now we’re all getting strained next. Strange eyes, strained brains. So hold it like this. Yeah, like that. Like it like that. Try to do that. Pose that’s a good pose. It’s hard. Maintain it is. Okay, what we’re gonna say back. Oh, i forgot. I know what i want to know why. I also want to say that lisa and i have actually known each other for twenty years. You have no rights. Okay? Out of the blue oversignt no, no, because, you know, i sort of had a front row seat at the creation of this field, the non-profit tech field. And so when i was looking around doing web stuff for non-profits back in the early nineties, i ran into at least met her at one of ah, web girls meet ups. Okay. Okay. So let’s go. All right, so we want we want tohave happy, healthy non-profit by having happy, healthy people eyes that. Okay, so you have some strategies, i presume for well, especially from you gaining more from technology with fewer intrusions. So we is that the way we start there, with sure minimizing intrusions in our tech beings? Sure. Okay. From what kind of lens? Of of the individual. Okay versus the organization. Okay, so, for starters, i stop sleeping with my iphone. Okay. You had your iphone goes to your head. Yes, i know. I used it is an alarm clock, but i had no impulse control. Teo actually not look at all my social media feeds before bed, and that disrupts your sleep. It disrupts your circadian rhythms and if you don’t get good sleep, you’re not good to anybody. You’re worthless, you’re worthless that air sleep by keeping your iphone out of the bedroom and bask in your office alarm clock. Sabelo well, i did a sony said, no, no, i don’t want radioshack final radio shack. What about one with that? Wakes me up with pulsating light fancy. And then i set up a charging station at the house. So as soon as i walk in the door, my entire family has to put their devices at the door, plug it in, and then if they want to use it, they have to walk through the whole house and think about the fact that they’re going to use the device. Ok, that is similar to me to what we learned in the italian, my italian background eat less by not putting the big platter of food on the plate. Exactly. You keep the platter in the kitchen and plate there and then and you have to get up and go and, you know, attempted by the beautiful sausage in the pasta that wolber so close, it’s. Just a fork. It’s a fork length away. Okay, okay. Makes a lot of sense now. I was just reading something about the iphone. Then the new iphone that’s going to be technologically equal to the six but smaller inside were like, five. They’re changing something about the blue, the blue tones, the blue light and the way you dropped your sleep. There’s a blue shades or something that that makes it hard. It’s a strain on your eye or that you know, but it’s it’s not so much. Just it’s. That but it’s also, if you read your work emails right before you go to sleep, you’re gonna have stress dreams about it. I mean, you know, you should have a better night time rich team that allows you to go to sleep calmly and wake up refreshed about a better morning routine. That too i do. I’m trying. I try not to look at my email now, my phone is not well. It is today now, because when i travel yeah. When you travel, you travel you. Use a little little nightstand radio club. Now, i use my phone, but i keep it. Try to keep it a faraway so have to get up out of bed. Okay? And i’ve conditioned myself to say don’t don’t do it right now. The morning routine that’s a tough one. No, i have one. Guess what it is. Well, it’s not checking your email? No, i don’t know. I walked five thousand steps, so you get out of bed. Well, i shower and, you know, show kids to school, you know? And then i walked my five thousand steps or your coffee drinker. I make coffee, i meditate while the coffee’s brewing okay, three short meditations. Yeah. Three minutes, three minutes. Cycle right. Five thousand steps on dh then start my day. Okay, let’s, turn to release it. Now, before you did something like the cookers hyre well that’s supposed to be related to the circadian rhythms. Exactly. The blue light affects your brain and its tricks your brain into thinking it’s daytime. And that is something that so subtle and none of us are realizing it’s happening. Now what i was going to say about the iphone is they’re taking that out over there, changing the shade in the new, smaller iphone that’s still going to be technically so all that does is change the light that doesn’t change. What beth was saying is that you’re compulsively checking all your messages and getting sucked into the tensions and stress of work keep the phone away from the bed, you don’t get it right, and i don’t need it in the morning. You don’t it’ll be there, you know, there are things in the world will be trying to make space in your life for reflection and contemplation and some were somewhere in this always on, always on, always thinking, always doing world yeah, okay. All right. What else? Elisa, you give us one self care so self care is important. So we were talking about technology. But there are so many other things that have to do with taking care of yourself. So tack, wellness is one of them getting good sleep. We’ve talked about movement. The fact that we sit so many hours of every day at work almost all of us are trapped behind our desk. So beth has been really good at training me at doing this i considered the computer for hours on end and never budge. She forces me to get up, we walk the halls, we walk around the block, you live in the same house. Are you sharing a home together way? No, no, what do you know when when we’re doing princessa presentations together and we’re traveling together working on the book, working weekends, right? Yeah, so we’ve been working a lot of the book and we get sucked in as well to the book, but then she is incredibly disciplined to get up and get her steps going, so i’ve gone from two thousand steps to hitting ten thousand every damn with her when i’m not with her, i’m not as disciplined, but you have reminders you can use your technology to remind you to be mindful of using it or to remind you to stop what you’re doing and get up and move around, or two meditate toe, listen to some guided meditations that are free on your iphone or on your android phone, and take that times or use your technology to advantage you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Now, is this a simple is you referring to just setting an alarm to remind you to get up? It could be, but there are apse. There are acts that will remind you. All right. So they just have a few apple fit ball fit. Bolt? Yes, old fitted bold because actually is a plug in on your browser that will ding every fifteen minutes and show you exercises. Actually, pictures of exercises step by step that you khun dio i can still be productive if i stop my work every fifteen minutes. Yes, yes, yes, you can. It’s it’s a different kind of interruption because you’re what you’re doing is training your attention. Have you ever heard of a book called eighteen minutes a day? You’re pregnant. You can tell me about the last time. I think. You know, you have a really good memory. Yeah, i think so. Let’s, look back. We can check the video, but i think yes, you told me about it. Okay, but go ahead, summarize because everybody doesn’t have my memory. Give us well. And this is more if you’re cliff notes. Right? Right. So let technology makes us distracted. And what you’re doing is training your awareness, so if your beep yourself every hour and say to yourself and my own task, am i doing that most important task? You’re actually trained yourself to think that way, right? Right? Staying on task versus you know, i yeah, somehow i ended up, you know, in an endless loop of youtube videos, couto they’re very nice people, but, you know, it could be a little distracting. Yes, they have a big president like, i have to have two floor here, but it could be a little distracted, right? How did that happen? But if i have a little bit of a reminder, i’m not present, i’m somehow i wandered down this path. I don’t know how let me get back to where i need to know. It’s changing bad habits it’s becoming aware of your bad habits and changing them is being really conscious, mindful of how you’re using the technology and making those changes consciously making those changes because if nobody is, they’re nudging you if i mean we could be accountability buddies to each other, i might say to beth beth, you’re on your phone at bedtime, but if if nobody is there, at least your technology can remind you and make yourself more conscious and aware. Because once you’re aware you can do something about it and they wear. This is important too, because the technology provides monitoring. Like i can look down, i can say, well, i’ve only had twenty seven hundred steps so far. I better get moving. Okay, for sure that a simple benefit, but yes, the search search. Ok, it does everything okay? We name any other apse for wellness. Well, there’s a desk desk, yogi is one for your computer that will help you pull that bolt and yogi. Okay, there, spire spike. Oh, that’s a wearable it’s unbearable zubair aspire u s p i r yes, fire it’s a device. You either talk in here or in your pants and your brawl or your pants, and it measures your breath and it’s based on your breath patterns. It tells you whether you’re calm tents are you or you’re focused and it sending data to your phone. So i mean, it will tell you if you’re tense and so it’s a reminder to a nudge toe. Take a deep breath. You’re tense. Upset? Yeah, alright moment. There’s so if you’re in the meeting with your boss and things in your annual evaluation is not going well, you can say, well, my bride’s beeping i gotta stop fired-up spire was telling me, buy bras buzzing, you know? Well, i can’t have any more i can’t have any more flat attend. Well, what what it is is helping you with, you know, emotional intelligence of self awareness and knowing what your reactions are so you can then manage them and be intentional about it. Okay? That’s the awareness. Yeah. Intentional intentionality. Okay, what else we got? Oh, moment there’s the moment at which tells you how more okay, moments where tio, check your it tells you how many times you’ve been looking at your iphone. I have that really embarrassing. You haven’t mastered that. So how many times through the day today, i astronomical. Are you over? A hundred? Probably is. I mean, well, yeah, you use it for so many days, sequential things. I look at the time of day sometimes, you know, that’s over and over. But then but then there is mail on your facebook wear. How embarrassing, you know? Well, i was i was consciously trying to in this might somewhere because i’m a social media person to consciously think what i’m on social media and my butt being intentional and they getting stuff done are just wind this lee scrolling through the feet and saying what everyone else is doing. So how much time in my wasting on facebook and how much time i actually getting stuff done with her? Same thing? I mean, they’re also short looking another hundred fifty and it’s a way to procrastinate. Do you want to share your your number? What is gold with moment a moment you wantto make moment number, moment number i i actually just used it to t get a handle on it said he was embarrassed. It was embarrassing at first. What was i looked at like there was one like two hours of facebook today, two hours of yeah, but no cumulatively alt-right yeah, yeah, thank you, but also tell you how many times you looked at your phone. Do you remember how many times you were checking? Oh, you know, she’s not going to tell you that i’m going to tell you that i should tell you i can’t remember tell you her cholesterol numbers before i know it was like three hundred eighty years for eighty or something. Yeah, great. Well, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Three. Ninety nine, ninety four hundred. Okay. It’s one. Fifty now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. That was from last year. Also. That’s. What? Got you on the walking? Yeah, four hundred. That was yes. Okay, our other ideas. Way wellness. Okay, let’s, go up to the aps. And when we started to talk about relationships in the workplace, okay, so we talk, you know, that does affect your emotional well being. So we talked a lot about techniques that you can use. Teo, you know, man it. How to say no. For example. Boundary setting down decent but foundry said on reset and enforcing forcing i think lots of people set boundaries and then they don’t get enforced. I had our excellent pia is yes, that’s true. Given those i thought we were getting into the session i was looking at was, like, fifteen minutes. Ok? Yes, that it happens. You have these things in your mind. But you never. You never tell them to anybody, so nobody else knows and your boundaries get trampled and you don’t say no, you say? Yeah, how the first thing you say is yes, i’ll do that. Yes, i think you’re thinking. Are you okay? Yeah. Now. Okay, let’s, give some of the tips. So how do we enforce our boundaries? You say now we got to buy the but you’re going to say by the book, but you use it. You say nufer out on non-profit it was right. No way this little exercise around practicing feeling what no feels like in your throat. So i’ll say, eliza, we jump off a cliff. No, come on, alisa. You’re really good at jumping off cliffs. No, but why? I’m too busy right now. I have a full plate, but thank you for asking, okay? It was was this one act play festival, which is what is that? Well, we’re just just practicing saying no, and then and overcoming objections and if people practicing practicing and and also coming up with really legitimate reasons, because people want to hear a reason they don’t like to take no, they don’t want to take no for an answer. So come up with your reasons are and value those ok, i’ve heard a strategy? I don’t know necessarily related to boundaries. But you people want to hear. Yes. So you thie answer is yes, but even though everybody knows but is the universal no gator yeah, here. Yes, yes, yes, i will do that. But i won’t do it until tomorrow. Or yes, there’s that technique as well. Okay, is that is that bonem cards that make way didn’t make the book? I mean, our book is really just learning to say no and benefiting from saying on being okay with saying no so here’s another technique and sort of down the my mindfulness path, if you will drawling, meditative, drawling something called zen tangles. So rather than zoning out on your phone zen out with drawling so it’s actual it’s the meditation technique technique demonstrate this one your swag we have are going she’s so good at they’re people. So you now you’re gonna have to describe it for listeners because everybody does not have the benefit of the video. I need a pen. Of course. Give me the paper would burn. Oh, is that so gorgeous? What a gorgeous pan. The wood burning. I’m just gonna have to go. Go to their booth and hear what they’re doing. Zen zen circles with no it’s god’s entangles. Okay, okay. It’s, meditative drawing. Okay. And you’re usually doing on the small piece of artwork so you can complete it in less than a half hour. So we draw. You gotta do the cliff notes version four dots on the page. You connect them four dots. You drew a rectangle, i draw a rectangle. I then i draw a scribble or tangle. And then the next part is to fill it in with repetitive patterns in silence. Okay, stop now! Show that to the camera. So a rectangle than her squiggle and that we’re filling it in with repetitive vertical lines. She’s chosen right to write and keep on changing it. Okay, my head feels and or can i could? You could do circles or whatever, but the idea is, it helps your focus. You’re telling it’s intuitive there’s no right or wrong answers. And what it’s doing? Is it’s really lighting up a different side of her brain? Then you are in front of the screen. Is this research based we have researched? Approved? Yes. Yeah. It’s, therapeutic art. This is their feet in guarding the cars and houses, drawing the courthouses. Yes, about that. Oh, it could be that. Tell us about that. I don’t know. I like to make little court. I mean, i’m no artist naturally. But i thought you literally through no, i draw cars and houses. And i thought you threw carson. Elsa? What? What is this called? Xan. Tangle. Entangle? Yes. When i said is this better than drawing? Okay? Cars and houses. You know that i draw when i’m there. I mean that’s, my there’s mine, there’s there’s my own u do that over and over again. Well, i’ll fill it in sometimes. You know, sometimes a shingle house like that. How you do it might be bricks, you know, i might make it a stucco. Ah, it could be a plaster. Which would be no, you no, those are the main ones. And then i feeling the roof, of course, usually tar shingles. I don’t like the stucco roofs, and i don’t really like slate roofs either. So i do the the national sabat are there things? Do you do? This is there is my house. Relax, say, to relax or while you’re bored? Are you not to relax? I’m not paying attention if you’re doodling, which is a very different part of your brain, you’re losing its not enjoying this. You’re not, you know, dahna screen doing this? No, i’m not so it’s a different part of great. I might be on the ground on easy phone call, you know, a casual phone call like with friends and not business. I think i pretty well. So you’ve been in a bookstore recently. Have you seen, like adult men in the bookstore recently recently? Yeah, i was in barnes and noble. Okay, so, have you seen all the adult coloring books i have? Not. So this is the hot new trend? Yeah. Wait. But that means that we’ve grown up coloring books, not dahna way. Don’t bother. Although there is a swear e coloring book, we won’t say those among terrestrial radio. Now, don’t get in trouble with my am and fm affiliate stations. No, of course not. Like you would have two years ago. You know, of course not. All right, right. So these are adult themed right coloring book. Not a mean of a non sexual nature. They’re they’re they’re meditative. Drawings? They’re flowers. They’re butterflies, whatever. Highly detailed, though that’s. What? That was it’s different than a child. One very highly. Let’s. Go back to my course is a research backing up? Yes. Therapeutic art thieves entangles there are yes. Entangles. Okay, meditative art, art therapy. You can look at a dog clolery cubine google it. Everybody knows art therapy. Like yeah, yeah, yeah, same thing, same thing entangles all right. And adult coloring books, adult coloring book and there’s some right here in this sum. And this exhibit blackbaud blackbaud has them with pencils. In fact. Other says, i’m not blackbaud handup who had the pencils and the colored and it wasn’t black there’s three but there’s a thumb up your lady was upleaf saturday’s swag pile had coloring pencils. Very nice. Find pencils. You know that the adult coloring book trend has caused a color pencil shortage. All right? Yeah. There aren’t enough colored pencils produced in the world. Yes. Not anymore. Not anymore. They’re not. They’re doing putting extra shifts in the factory, and they want the big sets of one hundred fifty different colors. Right? You’re you’re young and you’re full spectrum? Yes, exactly. Red orange. Yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, the rainbow, you know, but you gotta have the full spectrum. All right, let’s, let’s, get back to our wellness. We were in the office that can put us in the office. All these. What do you have? Office. We talked about boundaries, nandi on the office, standing and sitting what’s. The combination there’s, an ergonomic combination of twenty minutes standing eight minute sitting in two minutes stretching and moving around it’s, twenty minutes sitting a minute, standing two minutes stretching a minute. Standing. Yes, it. Yes, as long as you’re breaking up the siting. Okay. Okay. Well, sandy or treadmill desks for movement while you’re healed. Now, i’ve seen motorized desk that are both. Yeah, i’m standing and and sitting there, vera desk. There will be a narrow desk. Very desk because they have lovers and they can raise them. E i saw that at south by okay. Okay. I want one. All right. You could have you could have. I have the old one with the lover. Yeah. That’s those air, those air, certain stops. The details. Yeah. You want the motor where’s unlimited stopping, right? And you don’t potential and, you know i actually have to buy a fancy desk. I’ve seen non-profit people use cartons and music stands okay. You know, let’s get people a decent death. Yeah. Or even on amazon? Yeah. I’m not saying you’re advocating that, but no, but let’s not have people standing standing on creates and no elevating their desk with milk milk boxes. You know, let’s, let’s get you people, but some krauz organizational policy offering that as an option if you want to standing and encouraging it or even a community one have a standing desk there that people take turns and they encourage each other. Okay, it’s, your turn. It’s returned eight minutes, eight minutes and that’s. Another thing you know, going into the office. That design and layout of the office can encourage or be nudges too certain healthy happy behaviors. For example, walking trails inside the office. They have that robert wood johnson foundation walking trails in the office. Right. They lay out here if you do this track around the office. It’s this many steps. Take a break. That’s not you know, i’m not joking. Alright, i believe you, you know sign it. Don’t take the elevator. Take the stairs. Two up, one down. You know, there’s a one up, two down, but even even doing something as simple as like, if your workplace offer soda in the refrigerator or put it down, i don’t have it. Don’t have it at eye level. Put the water in eye level dahna very simple stuff the baskets of fruit within reach through no chocolate doughnuts, right? Right, i’m ok. I’m feeling bad about something that just occurred to me that we said earlier again for people who don’t have the video, we were talking about how to use your howto hold your phone and i said like this, not like that. Well, that’s no value to people who are just listening to ntc conversations or non-profit radio, they don’t have the video, not on my youtube channel. Riel, oriel tony martignetti so they don’t have the benefit of video. I could do that. You cannot no, i like give shout out some, you know, best knows i’m kidding, lisa, i hope you know. No, you’re good, you’re good to chat about what was my point. Oh howto hold, explain how you’re alone, right? So so instead of your neck is down and your shoulders are hunched and it’s close to sixty pounds of pressure on your non-technical on the cervical spine. Yes. So it’s close to your body that’s not good. Hold it out a little bit forward. And if you don’t want to look like a geek, you khun sort of put your guests want to make a little more human looking you put you, you cup your elbow into your other hand and you’re sort of holding it up like that. You’re walking like this, you know you’re not supposed to be doing while walking. No, no. That’s distracted one thing you know, they’re not gonna do that when you set me up. No, but you know, that’s. All right. That’s, another issue. There’s been a thirty five percent increase in accidents do to distract and why i’m not surprised you walk the streets of new york city now because you’re on the west coast now. But anyway, i walk the streets of the east coast of new york city, and you have to you have to get out of people’s way, right? Because they’re not watching in tokyo. They have a texting lane in the sidewalk. No, they do. Where you can walk without a walker? Yeah, that’s. I wouldn’t do that because you get bumped into suppose you, but is there one for each direction yet? Is that a yeah? Yeah, is it too late? There was an article in the guardian recently to a really bizarre i think we should just about a fire handup ratify our environ. Exactly what exactly does that enables? Yeah, so so enabling modification to know, but modify your environment in different ways that create a relax using space that give you these cues that trigger your brain to say, oh, going into work, it’s not so stressful because i’ve got some really good lighting i’ve got maybe aromatherapy or some nice plants, i’ve got an environment that i’ve created at my workplace that makes me actually calmer, more relaxed, excellent didn’t even have to ask for your ideas. Were you right or or workplace? Where? There’s communal space where i can connect with other people and inspires collaboration? Yeah and that’s playful play way at work, but we need to have in our little in our shared space that makes it playful toys, adult court on always white ports and all. Clolery yes. Puzzles, markers, a communal table. Stress balls, balls. Yes, robots. One of one of the people you talked about has robot robot. Yes. Okay, cool. Yesterday we had did you see the group? I’m trying to see them. Corner shop. They’re here they have squeeze balls that are fruits today’s yesterday swags pile which got stolen overnight. But we had to squeeze eggplant. Yes, i have squeezed tomato. Some guests i could tell, you know, whether they were under stress or not, or whether you put there squeeze toy down, but they have fruits and vegetables out of squeeze toys. All right, buy-in we got to leave it there. I think we’ve from barton people. Yes, we have a deal. Ok. We only just talked about very little of what’s in the book. Well, of course you go by the book. The book is going to be called. I don’t know the subtitle of it. I’ll let a little lead to say at this time but the title is going to be happy. Healthy non-profit strategies for impact without burnout published by wiley wiley and coming out october of this year. Twenty sixty? Yes. Look for the book. Maybe we’ll have you on when it may. Well, have you want again? Keep that mind. Beth cancer. I may not remember so right. You know me better write. You can always find it happy, healthy non-profit dot org’s. Okay. Okay. Beth cantor out. Master trainer, speaker, author and blogger. You know she’s at best blogged. And lisa sherman, a wellness attack wellness advocate and, uh, multi book author as as beth is. Well, this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc non-profit technology conference. Thank you. Wish, ewing, we’re showing you wishing you health and wellness in your office place. Thanks so much for being with us. You can preorder that book right now on amazon. It is available. Let’s. Shoot those numbers up your job descriptions coming up first. Pursuant, they’ve got a free webinar. Best kept secrets for upgrading donors. Well, secrets are going to be so best kept after the ribbon our wednesday september twenty first, one o’clock eastern, you’ll learn the latest don’t a research keys to advancing donor elation, ships and surprising strategies to upgrade your hidden gems. Tony dot m a slash pursuant webinar needed capital p and a capital w and that’s, where you go for registration, we be spelling spelling bees for non-profit rid fund-raising if you want to bring millennials into your good work, this is perfect, not grandma’s spelling bee you can check out their video, which has examples of the live music, the dancing, the comedy fund-raising and spelling these air terrific millennial events, usually in a bar or restaurant, and they’re very fun video is that we be spelling dot com now tony steak too. My latest video is don’t be in the woods on planned e-giving there’s a lot that small and midsize non-profits can do with planned e-giving i explained how to get started it’s at tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two here is have a carpenter with your job descriptions. I’m very pleased that heather carpenter is with me. She is a phd was a non-profit manager for ten years. She’s, now assistant professor in the school of public non-profit and health administration at grand valley state university. She teaches grad and undergrad courses in non-profit management, financial management fund on profit technology, leadership and human resources management. The book that brings our two non-profit radio is co authored with terra qualls. And it is the talent development platform putting people first in social change organizations published by josy bass this year on twitter she’s at heather carpentier, which is at heather carpenter. But take off that last are have the carpenter. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, tony that’s. A pleasure. You’re calling from grand valley university. Where’s that michigan. Right war in grand rapids, michigan, which is on the west side of the state. Okay, okay. That was the summer there in grand rapids. It was really nice. We have a great summer. I’ll bet a little harsher winters, but yeah, no, but you do have harsh winters. Yes. Okay, heather, our job descriptions he’s often get very, very short shrift, don’t they? Yes. Yes. Well, having worked in non-profits for many years and done h r and operations, i know how busy we get. And often, when people leave organizations, we scramble and pulled together what we have on dh and send out a job description that is often outdated and hasn’t been updated in a few years. Or sometimes, i think even pulled off the web. Yes, yes. You’ve seen that? Yes. Ok, not that you’ve done that when you were leading your non-profit. I understand, but i think it’s i think that’s also a pretty common practice. Why do we need to focus more on job descriptions? Well, job descriptions are really an important part of helping an employee to understand their roles and responsibilities within the organization. It also helps to track employee and volunteer performance and success. And this is ah living document, right way. Need to keep these current as job responsibilities change. Yes, we recommend that non-profits update their job descriptions, actually on an annual basis. Okay, okay. Sabat do you do you think that poor job descriptions lead tio? I don’t know hyre turnover or lower morale? What consequences do you think result from not having accurate descriptions? Yes, i i agree with your assertion. We’ve found that a couple of things can happen with outdated Job descriptions 1 that it’s for a new hyre they might not really fully understand the role let’s say hypothetically, speak about how when organizations lose employees and they have someone coming in and they used a job description. That’s out data from the labs it’s not clearly showing the response the accurate responsibility so the person might get burned out pretty quickly, finding out they have a lot of additional latto responsibilities, or maybe they don’t even have the adequate qualifications for for the rial responsibilities. So the job or, if someone’s been in a position for a few years, there’s what we call the pile on effect, where often more and more responsibilities added, but that’s not actually reflected in the job description or in compensation so so employees can get and volunteers can’t burn out that way, and then sometimes people become overqualified for the job or might be overqualified when they come in. The job description is accurate. Does this apply also to organizations that are mostly volunteers? Should should be job descriptions for volunteers? Oh, yes, absolutely, we believe that that will our book applies to not just paid staff volunteers as well, and we actually have sample job descriptions for board board positions and key volunteers as well as come common staff within various non-profit organizations like your executive director, development director on bury the book is loaded with lots of resource is sample job descriptions but goes way beyond that just job responsibilities. And forms, you know, and we’re just taking one piece of the book and talking about job description, but there’s a lot more to it. And the thing is just loaded with but templates and resource is yes, thank you. I really wanted it to be as practical as possible, having worked in the nonprofit sector for many years ourselves, it’s more of a workbook where organizations can pick and choose the chapters that they need the resource is from. But it is a whole platform. If an organization decides to go through the process for from everything from understanding the organizational learning and professional development culture to actually assessing stats, professional development and creating professional development goals, an objective tied to the strategic als of the organization. All right, so where do we start this job? Description process. I mean, i know who it starts with its doctor, the supervisor. How does that what is the what the person need to do to get started? Well, the supervisor should really look at the position itself and often there’s different philosophies on job descriptions. And our our philosophy is that the organization, the supervisor, should build the job around the position and not the person because people change andi really, to really get an understanding of what is needed to advance the organization forward. So we have something called a proficiency mapping cool and are in our book where supervisors can really identify the called common confidences that the knowledge, skills, abilities and other characteristics needed to perform the job and then rape those competencies on different proficiency levels. We use a proficiency level scale created by the national institute of health, and they’ve been doing this type of job description, worked for many, many years and really getting understanding of what level that the position and the responsibilities you need to be at when we talked earlier a few minutes ago about outdated job descriptions common, another problem with outdated job description says they’re not often at the level that the position needs to be on a smaller non-profits with great to have people who could do lots of different responsibilities, but sometimes we have very high expectations that someone in entry level type job might be more responsibilities, say, manager or leading the organization through some sort of process when that’s not necessarily the right level for that. Job you have these 5 proficiency levels, fundamental novice, intermediate advanced and an expert, yeah, way provide definitions and also example words and responsibilities at each level. I like to tell you, i jump pretty quickly from fundamental expert on i think if i’d done something once, that makes me an expert, so i don’t know if that fits within your construct, but like, one time i’m not the expert the first time, but after i’ve done it one time, i consider myself an expert and that’s cause that’s cost me a lot of money and, like home repairs and things, but i can’t get around it. That’s that’s but that’s probably not probably fit within your your definitions well, generally the expert and advance our our our director level positions on responsibilities. So at the executive director, we would hope a most size organizations that the person, the person holding that position would have advanced on expert level. But we understand that at the lower level positions the coordinators, the entry level positions that they’re more at the novice and the intermedia level. And yes, i mean, we’ve found that it’s helpful, starting with the supervisor to create these confidences and proficiency levels on dh, then down the line. Wei have employees assess themselves and not do a real comparison over the competencies profession? Okay, yes, we’re gonna get that. So so after the supervisors part, then then what’s next in creating these optimal job descriptions, the next step is really getting documenting the employees responsibilities, and they don’t see what the supervisor has done. But if you do have someone in that particular position just making sure that all the responsibilities are are documented because the supervisor might not have a son of everything that employees doing. But obviously, if it’s a new position, or if the job description ever been done before, then they would have the supervisor just do the proficiency mapping. Ok, ok, but but the the next step now is the is the is the employee e-giving their input into what their responsibilities are around the competencies and the proficiency levels. Yeah, the next up is just the employees identifying their their responsibility. Okay, a faster proficiency levels. Quite yet just for the job description itself. It’s really making sure that all the responsibilities are identified and the supervisor is really the one that making sure that all the proficiency levels are identified. All right, ok, ok. And we mentioned these competencies. Can you give us some examples of competencies? Sure. Before you do that, i want to tell you about the process that we took to to identify ten core competencies for non-profit managers like holly and i actually did some some national surveys and looked at literature around training needs of non-profit managers and assassin what their confidence cesaire needed. So this is really backed and research that we identify the ten course set of common confidence ease that non-profit managers possessed. They’re very general there everything from advocacy to communications, marketing, financial management to fun development hyre we also have human resource is way also in the book go through the process of has helping organizations create their own sub confidence ease, because since the time core competencies are very general, we know that each organization is different in their culture and each position and as well as department, it’s organization, house, apartment, that they have their own core competencies that are important to that organization. So we’ve also provided of examples of different size organizations and the subcontinent use that. They have so well for example, intercultural confidence he is a very important sub competency for many organizations, two working, working well under pressure are working with certain population, so we’ve we’ve worked with various organizations and their different types of missions require different competency. So we worked with homeless organization last semester, and they, you know, they require their staff to have confidence he’s in understanding people who have housing have challenges, okay, let’s see, we have just about a minute before, before we take a break and then we’ll continue. I should do this. We haven’t mentioned the board should be job descriptions for board positions. Definitely we have. We have a sample job descriptions for board chair board treasurer, board secretary on various board general boardmember on there’s a there’s. A lot of resource is not just in our book, but out there on the web is well for creating and managing board job descriptions. That’s an important piece we’ve we’ve done this process with all volunteer run organizations where it’s just the board teo organizations that have paid staff, maybe they’re smaller, they have all the board do their Job descriptions and then the 1 to two staff members that they have so it’s important that it’s not just a staff process that boardmember look at their job descriptions and revise them. Okay, let’s, go out for a break and when we come back, heather, of course we’ll stay with us and we’ll keep talking about your job descriptions, and then we’ll move to mapping, mapping you thies competencies and proficiency levels to the job description. Stay with us like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that or neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e. N e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy. Fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals. Just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week, and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation. Top trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m lawrence paige, no knee author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. I know. I say it every time. Maybe maybe you listeners get here. Tired of hearing me say this, but i wish lawrence would pronounce his last name. Panjwani he’ll be so much more beautiful than paige. No. Ni lawrence. I’ve said this a large his face. So no it’s it’s. Not like i’m going behind his back. And pandiani will be so beautiful. Lorenzo? Lorenzo panjwani okay, okay. Heather let’s. Move now. Tio mapping what is this? What is it? What is that? The mapping process that comes next? Well, this is the mapping process is really about revising the job description and making sure that it matches up with the responsibilities really, that are needed. We advise organizations to separate job responsibilities by the competency categories. So we often see job descriptions that have a whole long list of job responsibilities. But were our processes to separate them by category? Cory so that it’s clear on the difference competencies that are needed with that particular job. We also have the manager identified perfect since he loves based on the job responsibility, action words. And so this is where hyre this is the revision process, the different levels and making sure that the wording really matches up with the proficiency level so we might have a position that is hyre up than it needs to be or lower and can be a giant. Now you mentioned job responsibility, action words. What defined those for us? Well, the action words are provided in the proficiency mapping scale. So as we talked about before there’s five purpose into levels from fundamental awareness, novice, intermediate to advance and back first. And each of these have a different level, and we have action words that are associated with each level. So as i mentioned about the higher level positions, we have the dance level there there’s facilitating, leading liaising, managing and the expert level. We’re synthesizing. We’re training were troubleshooting. And so these hyre level action words are associated with hyre level job responsibilities. Okay, yeah. And that’s me. Well, i like to focus on the expert. You know, like i said, i would skip over novice, intermediate and advanced. I go right from fundamental to expert one one one one time. So i’ve gotten used to use those expert use those expert examples. That’s where? Just in my mind, that’s where i belong let’s. See? Okay, so in this job in the in this revision process now it’s, the employees and the supervisor working together, uh, well, family it’s the supervisor making sure that the job description is aligned because as much as we’d like to be an employee involved in the process, the next step in the talent development platform which i don’t have time to talk about here is the individual professional development assessment and that’s where an employee actually haserot their confidence season proficiency level. So it’s really helpful that they don’t see realign job description before that, that there going off of what they i think that they’re expertise is and their proficiency level is. And then that way, you could do an accurate comparison. So what the job requires. Okay, well, you might be surprised we might have time to get to assessment a little bit. We might be surprised. Um, now for the mapping, there are there’s having six steps. Andi don’t really have. You know, we don’t have time to go through all six of them, but help help us understand an overview of the process. A little more detailed. And then we have so far yeah, so, as i mentioned in the first step of separating the job responsibilities by competency category, you’ll see then if there’s gaps and if you’ll have competency categories that you’re not covering it’s amazing how many organizations that we’ve worked with through this process, where they are missing competencies for specific positions, like operations manager, or or the executive director where often maybe, you know hr is a part of the operations manager job, but it’s not really accurately included are reflected in the job description or the job responsibilities or information. Technology is often a part of someone’s job, but not necessarily included, so it really helped helps organization to identify gaps with responsibility and say, well, we don’t have anything in this competency category. So let’s, let’s talk about what we need to include, i see, okay, it strikes me that this whole process to is going to i guess you said it, but just is going to make sure that you’re not bringing in let’s say, entry level people and having expectations that are unreasonable for them in terms of responsibilities and competencies. Exactly way also talk about degree levels as well in compensation we worked with quite a few smaller non-profits that, like tio, take all the responsibilities that we, we provide his examples, and and use them to hyre their new entry level staff at the masters level were like, whoa, you know, let’s think about it’s entry level, do they really need a mask spurs or do they even need a bachelor’s for that regard? So this really helped to think through the position responsibilities that you need for the organization and ok, if i really need all those responsibilities and maybe it’s two positions, not one or i’m i think i’m being unrealistic with how many responsibilities that i’m requiring in this in this position. So having those sometimes difficult conversations about what’s realistic for the organization since restarting tio, we’re talking about the possibility of entry level employees what’s your feeling on starting people at at low salaries? Well, i’m a little biased because i advocate for living wages because i teach graduate students in a lot of them are often on the job market, either during their degree program are afterwards and it’s really disappointing to see them have to take very low wage starting jobs also research, so that it costs between seventy five to one hundred for fifty percent of its employees annual salary when they leave. And so what i’ve seen with my students and former employees is that bill, if they’re not getting adequate living wage compensation, then the leave within a few months and that actually costs the organization a lot of money organizations, i don’t think we often realize how much time and effort it takes toe post the new position to interview the people to do the training and that’s that’s money, and what will when in fact, we could pay a living wage and a good starting salary for entry level employees and have them stay longer even if they stay a year to that’s that’s better than the cost of done, leaving within a few months because they find a better opportunity that paste on better excellent, we gotta leave it there. Unbelievable! You were right. We didn’t have a chance to talk about assessment. You’re right, but you got it by the book it’s talent development platform she’s heather l carpenter, phd and you’ll find her on twitter at heather carpentier carpenter and take off that last are thank you very much. Other next week, data disruption and small data rocks. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and we’d be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We be e spelling dot com. Our creative producer is claire miree off sam lee boots is the line producer. Gavin dollars are am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot org’s young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealised took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno, two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 25, 2015: Smart Interviewing Makes Great Hiring & Your Job Descriptions

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Sherryl Nufer: Smart Interviewing Makes Great Hiring

Sherryl Nufer, a founding partner in Pareto Consulting, explains why Behavioral Interviewing is superior to traditional methods and how any size nonprofit can get better hires through more sophisticated interviewing, whether you hire once a year or many times a month. This is from April 13, 2012.

 

 

Heather Carpenter: Your Job Descriptions

Heather Carpenter is co-author of the book “The Talent Development Platform” and she’s got advice for your often-rushed-through, lifted-off-the-web job descriptions. (Hint: Stop doing that!)

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of a cute ryan al gia if i just got a whiff of the possibility that you missed today’s show. Smart interviewing makes great hiring cheryl nufer, a founding partner in peredo consulting, explains why behavioral interviewing is superior to traditional methods and how any size non-profit khun get better hires through more sophisticated interviewing? Whether you’re hiring once a year or many times a month, this is from april thirteenth, two thousand twelve, and your job descriptions once you’ve made the hyre it’s time for job description. Heather carpenters, co author of the book the talent development program, and she’s got advice for your often rushed through lifted off the web job descriptions gotta fix that on tony’s take two social media videos responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com here is cheryl nufer if smart interviewing makes great hiring, i guess now is cheryl nufer cheryl is a founding partner of peredo. Consulting, providing small to medium sized organizations with business tools that are often available only the large for-profit corporations sounds like she’s sort of stole the tagline for this show. She’s, a strategy and organization development consultant with more than thirty years of experience, and i’m pleased that her expertise brings her on cheryl nufer welcome. Thank you so much, tony it’s really a pleasure to be here. It’s a pleasure to have you thanks, snusz what’s wrong with traditional interviewing? Cheryl well, we have a top ten list of what goes wrong in interviews, but really, they’re too big and the first one is that it’s? Hard to believe, but a lot of interviewers don’t really know what they’re looking for in a candidate, and so they just figured that the more people they interview, the better their odds it’s kind of like vegas, and they don’t know when they see it. The second big problem is that they ask risky questions when i say questions. Yeah, what is that? Yeah, i don’t know. Just wait. Typically think about what we call illegal questions. Is that a problem? But risky questions, questions that back-up candidate can prep for that. They can anticipate that they can prepare a candid answer for which may or may not be the truth. So the data on which to base your hiring decision is a lot. So those sounds like questions like what’s your strengths and your strengths and weaknesses, like those types of questions are risky that’s exactly right? Because people can anticipate them. Yeah, common ones we here are what you just said there, but it’s also questions like, what would you do in a situation? For example, if you were faced with an angry donor for this job is going to require a lot of long hours. Will that be a problem for you? Or my favorite is tell me about yourself. Why should i write? And these are risky because they’re predictable is unmentioned. Secondly, they solicit the candidates opinions and, you know, i don’t want to sound harsh, but the candidate doesn’t know a lot about what’s required for success in the job interviewer does interviewers opinion it’s most important and then laugh so you can say that? Not sound harsh if i say it, it sounds harsh coming from you. It just sounds very matter of fact unprofessional. And final thing is that they also asked the candidate to hypothesize, so if you ask me, what would you do in a particular situation? They can tell you just about anything now? Is that what they would do if they were faced with that situation? Your organization, they may or may not so again, all of these risky it’s interesting that you call very typical questions risky, but i understand. I understand why. Yeah, well, it’s all about making it’s all about collecting data to make a decision to predict how someone is going to perform in your organization and risky your your database here, your hyre decision. Alright that’s so that’s the interviewing that we’re all most familiar with, we either do it or we’ve been through it. Or both. Why don’t you just started acquaint us with behavioral interviewing? Okay, well, behavioral interviewing is not just about the interview. It’s really a business process, just like your financial processes review hr processes and it has a set of steps. And so it starts off with identifying and defining the skills for success. And then you create a line of questioning that’s based on those skills you put that in an interview guide, follow the guide. After you interview you right, candidate based on the data you collected, and then all of the interviewers get together and share their example of make a hyre or no hyre decision. So, first of all, it’s, a repeatable process. In terms of knowing what you’re looking for, i think that’s a really big difference what we talk about is looking for a balance skills well and what we’re looking for doesn’t that come from the job description? Well, not necessarily, but good question, because a lot of organizations job description are nothing more than a list of responsibilities that they will fulfill once they’re hired, but what i’m talking about is a list of skills that are required to be successful in executing those responsibilities. And so we look at those in terms of technical skills, which are really job specific and things maybe like marketing the iranians fund-raising sales and then another set of skills that we call professional skills. You might also call the sauce skills and these cross jobs and these air things like planning and team work and initiatives and judgment, integrity, those kinds of things wei have a saying that a lot of organizations hyre on technical skills when they have to fire someone. Cheryl, we have to take a break when we come back. We’ll continue this and start exploring why behavioral interviewing is better than what we’re all accustomed to please hope. Everybody stays with us, we’re talking smart interviewing makes great hiring what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people x somebody’s a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealised took two or three years. For foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell, you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other. Ninety five percent. Dahna welcome back with my guests, cheryl nufer of peredo consulting, you’ll find peredo consulting at parade o p r e t o hyphen h y p h e n but don’t spell hyphen just put a hyphen in consulting peredo hyphen consulting dot com. Cheryl, why is this method behavioral interviewing superior to what we’re all accustomed to? Well, that has to do a lot with the questions that you ask, i said before the other questions, key behavioral questions are based on principle that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, so if we can figure out in an interview how a person behaves in the recent past in situations that are similar to what they face in our job, then we have a pretty good idea how well behaved if we hire them. So this is the opposite of stock investing, investment advisors who will say past results or no indication of future returns, right? Okay, but past behaviour is predictor of future behavior. Yeah, because we are creatures of habit. So there is a great formula for creating a behavioral question that your listeners could start using right away. So what you do is you start with the phrase something like give me an example of the time in the past, or maybe describe the past situation, and then what you do is you go back to those skills i was talking about a minute ago, the rooms that are important for success and you plug in burbage that describes the skills so let’s say we were talking about initiative, then we’d say something like, give me an example of the time in the past when you went above and beyond job requirements or a time in the past when you anticipated a potential problem and you made contingency plans. So what you do is always in behavioral interview issues asked what people did in the past versus what they would do in the future, which is a hypothetical. So this sounds harder to fake, but i have to tell the whole story. Now you have to tell a whole story, and it is very difficult to fake because they’re hard to anticipate. And a good interviewer should be asking specific follow-up questions. I mean it’s, easy to just ask the behavioral questions, but it’s an interview are you start listening for what you want. You want a real situation? You want to understand what they said or did in that situation, and you want to know what happened, what kind of results this is scaring the heck out of me if i’m in it, i’m nervous that’s a good thing i have my own business, so i’ve never run into this well. So what if i don’t have a story about initiative? Alright, i’m under pressure. I can’t i can’t think of one well, that’s a common thing, and our goal is the interviewer is to bring out the best in the candidate. So what? We can dio that’s good that’s, that’s reassuring it’s too, because when you’re comfortable, you’re going to share more information with me so i would prompt you with questions such as what about in this specific job? Or i may rephrase the question where someone doesn’t have work experience, i’m my nasco and to think about project that they did in college or maybe a summer job so anything that i can do or i can say, you know, we can come back to that question and give you a few minutes to think about it if you’d like. There are a lot of ways to handle that it’s not uncommon for someone to freeze up. Yeah, okay, i pulled listeners before the show. One of the questions i asked is, do you feel you’re hiring? Process is efficient and you’re hiring the right candidate, and about seventy one percent said yes and about twenty nine percent i said no, so we want to help the other third, but that two thirds may not be may not be as efficient and hiring savvy as as they think. That’s, right, that’s recorders almost sorry even if they have a good track record of getting good can bring one good talent. Beauty of a behavioral approach is that up? You don’t necessarily have to interview a lot of candidates and pick the best of the lot if you know what you’re looking for and you have a good screening process and you interview the candidates and their experiences match the criteria success. Technically, you could hire the first candidate you interview, which reduces your cycle time, and it also keeps you from potentially losing a good candidate because you’re hiring cycle is too long. Have you seen organizations do that either? For-profit or non-profit don’t they don’t they typically say, well, she was very good, but maybe we’ll find somebody better, absolutely, and that they are not confident in their process. There’s something in there got that says, you know, i’m just not confident in the data, my process for evaluating it and that’s where a good process really builds confidence to make that decision when you see that good step, okay? Andi yeah, these air interesting ondas you said very these type of questions very hard to anticipate that they’re going to come. How does the interviewer prepare? You talked down a little bit, going a little more detail on and then shortly we’ll get to how many interviewers there should be, but but but how do we prepare as an interviewer? So as an interviewer, well, basically you identify the skills that are required for success in the job. Based on those skills, you develop a line of behavioral questions using the formula that i shared with you. Typically you will type those up in an interview guide or just list if you have multiple interviewer shall divide that list up among all of your interviewers, so that there are no gaps in your questioning and there’s no redundancy safe, so everyone has their game plan they interview based on that. So that’s the primary way that you would prepare a search would review the resume common things, write what you want you want it certainly want to be prepared. So if it is a a siri’s of interviews interviewers, they don’t ask the same questions then no, they don’t that’s really a waste of time, and you have so little time in an interview. You want to make sure to use it wisely. Now they ain’t me ask multiple questions about a specific skill, but they typically don’t ask the same question because if they asked the same question, the candidate will probably give the same example and that’s kind of silly. You still tell the same story twice, exactly, and you would expect that so it’s not the interview each ball that’s the interviewers fault for not being prepared. On the other hand, what if all the interviewees stories, anecdotes come from just one of their jobs or something? Or just too? And they’ve got, you know, thirty years of experience or something like that? Well, that would absolutely be a red flag either there bread through depth of experience is not what it means here on their resonate, or perhaps there’s something that they just don’t want to share with you so that’s something that you may, if you find when you bring your interviewers together, that the same stories were told to everybody, then you could either make a no hyre decision or you could make a decision to have a follow-up phone interview where you would try to clean examples from some of their other work experience. Okay, so you’d like to follow up interview to be by phone, but the first one to be in person is that right? What i’m talking about here is typically you would do a phone screen organisations and then bring the candidate in for face-to-face what i was saying is, if you feel you can’t make ah hyre no hyre decision, you know, you always have the option to follow-up again by phone and asked more questions, okay, okay, um and so since we’re talking sort of around this, what is your advice around having just one interviewer or having a siri’s of interviewers, or even having a panel. Okay, well, we would always recommend more than one interviewer, if at all possible, and you can is that just to eliminate bias of one person, it could eliminate buy-in it? I can get you more data because if you have two interviews that you have more data on which to base a decision, there are two ways of doing what we call a serial interview, which is cheryl interviews candidate hands candidate off tony who interviews to hands it off to joe, and then when you separately and then after all the interviews, you come back together and share your example and make a decision. There’s also the panel interview where you have multiple people interviewing the candidate at one time and you can do multiple panels panels are great ways to involve more people from your organization and getting exposure to candidate. You just don’t want the panels to get too big. You know what is to become a panel? Interviews khun b scary. I’ve heard stories from people who were interviewed by five people or so that’s pretty intimidating it’s very intimidating i’ve been interviewed by many has six at one time. I know a lot about interviewing and that that was a nerve ng me, what we recommend is either two or three. When it gets above three, it can not only be intimidating, but it’s difficult for the interviewers to kind of it should be choreographed. So you should have someone out of the panel who is kind of the host and is kind of orchestrating this interview. There’s not anarchy, everyone’s firing questions at the candidate and it really doesn’t set the candidate up. Cheryl nufer is a founding partner of peredo consulting. You’ll find them on the web, but peredo pr e teo hyphen consulting dot com we’re talking about smart interviewing, making great hiring, cheryl. Is there an advantage of serial interviewing over the panel or or the other way around? Well, there is an advantage in the advantage is that when you’re in a panel, if you conduct one panel interviews, all three of you are hearing the same stories, the same situation in a serial interview it’s more likely that you will hear different stories, or sometimes the same story told different ways, and so you know, that sounds bad, but it can be bad if in fact there are vast differences in the story, like your fourth step in the supposed be the results. So if the results were different in the same story across to different interviews that’s about sign that’s a red flag may be the results keep getting better and better. Three interview that’s a great way to start catching a candidate who may be fabricating for people actually do that. Is that true? Absolutely, they do. I’ve heard rumors to that effect, but i always hoped it wasn’t so another question i asked listeners before the show is our hires in your office typically interviewed by more than one person and seventy one percent said yes, fourteen percent said no, so most people are doing the multiple interviewing and then fourteen percent said depends on the job. Um all right, is there a job where the solo interview makes sense or no, you really just don’t like that at all or there’s a situation, i guess i mean when just one interviewer makes sense. Here’s what i would say in some more straightforward job, maybe some entry level jobs it could perhaps the appropriate that i say it’s no more appropriate in bigger organizations bigger cos you have a really small organisation. You have to hire the right people. You i have no where to hide them. You have no one to cover for them hyre abad a bad fit so i think it’s always good in a small organization, if possible, to have a second set of eyes and get that second set doesn’t have to be somebody that the person is going to report to, right? It could be a colleague. I mean, taken officer just four or five people. They’re going to be hiring of fifth or sixth, like a cz you’re saying that’s a big percentage of the staff, it doesn’t have to be somebody that that person would report to write absolutely not. And in a small organization of horrified people, i mean everyone’s wearing multiple hats, they really have to depend on each other. So everyone has a big stake in making sure the best person has brought onboard, so it could be a appear. It could be someone that maybe is performed well in a similar job in the past. You’re absolutely right. It could be just as long as they’re good interviewers they would be appropriate? How do we gauge technical expertise? We’ve been talking about behavior? Well, you can use behavioral questions to get that technical competencies, but technical skills are a little bit easier. For example, if you were hiring someone for fund-raising you can actually have them bring in and explain fund-raising approaches that they’ve used in the past. I mean, i would ask a lot of follow up questions to make sure that what they brought us, something they actually did. There are tests that you can use for certain technical skills. You can also do simulations, so for example, if you were hiring someone for a sales position, are fund-raising position you could actually have them come in and do a presentation to a team of you, and so you were potential donors and see how they would handle it. So there are a lot of ways to get technical. Wei have just about a minute left, cheryl, what potential problems should people look out for us if they’re goingto implement behavioral interviewing? I think the biggest problem is asking a behavioral question and assuming you’re going to get a behavioral answer, so you have to be able to sort out hypothetical responses through a good line of follow-up questioning about the situation there. Action in the results. Okay. Situation, obstacle action and results. Cheryl nufer is a founding partner of peredo consulting, which provides small to medium sized organizations with business tools that are often available only the large for-profit corporations. Cheryl, thank you very much for being a guest has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. And i hope that this information will help your eye. I think it will help listeners. Thank you very much. A pleasure to have you. Thankyou, tony. Stick to and your job descriptions coming up first. Pursuant, they have this tool. Billboard it’s integrated management for your multi-channel engagement strategies. All right, s o jargon jail. I plead guilty for that. You, khun. I could throw myself in there. Let’s. Break it down. You communicate in lots of different ways. Email landing pages, micro sites, donation forms mobile, all the social networks best to manage them all separately. No, don’t separate. Integrate! I thought that myself that’s, that’s not pursue it. Language. I thought of that billboard is integrated management and the all important analytics that go along with all these. Tools so you know which channels move more people and which don’t from mayor you learn you improve, continue that it oration, that innovative process of learning and improving based on the analytics, and you’ll raise more money. Check out billboard it’s at pursuant dot com. My video this week is the next set of non-profit technology conference videos. They’re all about social media there’s a panel of three on visual social media, another panel on email deliver ability so that those e mails that you sent through billboard actually arrive at people’s inboxes video strategy and embrace embracing emerging technology and social media. They’ve been on non-profit radio if you’ve missed them or you want the videos because you like to watch the videos, then the links are under my video at tony martignetti dot com, and that is tony’s take two for friday, twenty fifth of september thirty eighth show of the year. I’m very pleased that heather carpenter is with me. She is a phd was a non-profit manager for ten years. She’s, now assistant professor in the school of public non-profit and health administration at grand valley state university. She teaches grad and undergrad courses in non-profit management, financial management, fund-raising technology, leadership and human resources management. The book that brings our two non-profit radio is co authored with terra qualls, and it is the talent development platform putting people first in social change organizations published by josy bass this year on twitter she’s at heather carpentier, which is at heather carpenter. But take off that last are heather carpenter. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, tony it’s. A pleasure. You’re calling from grand valley university. Where’s that michigan. Right war in grand rapids, michigan, which is on the west side of the stage. Okay. Okay. That was the summer there in grand rapids. It was really nice. We have a great summer. A little harsher winters, but yeah. No, but you do have harsh winters. Yes. Okay, heather, our job descriptions he’s often get very, very short shrift, don’t they? Yes. Yes. Well, having worked in non-profits for many years and done h r and operations, i know how busy we get. And often, when people leave organizations, we scramble and pulled together what we have on dh and send out a job description that is often outdated and hasn’t been updated in a few years, or sometimes, i think, even pulled off the web. Yes, yes, you’ve seen that, yes, ok, not that you’ve done that when you were leading your non-profit i understand, but i think it’s, i think that’s, also a pretty common practice. Why do we need to focus more on job descriptions? Well, job descriptions are really an important part of helping an employee to understand there roles and responsibilities within the organization. It also helps to track employee and volunteer performance and success, and this is, ah, a living document, right way need to keep these current as job responsibilities change. Yes, we recommend that non-profits update their job descriptions, actually, on an annual basis. Okay, okay. Do you do you think that poor job descriptions lead tio? I don’t know hyre turnover or lower morale? What consequences do you think result from not having accurate descriptions? Yes, i i agree with your assertion, we’ve found that couple of things can happen with outdated job descriptions, one that’s for a new hyre they might not really fully understand the role let’s say hypothetically speak about how when organizations lose employees and they have someone coming in, and they used a job description that’s out data from the labs it’s not clearly showing the response the accurate responsibility so the person might get burned out pretty quickly, finding out they have a lot of additional latto responsibilities, or maybe they don’t even have the adequate qualifications for for the rial responsibilities. So the job or, if someone’s been in a position for a few years, there’s what we call the pile on effect where often more and more responsibilities added, but that’s not actually reflected in the job description or in compensation, so so employees can get volunteers burn out that way, and then sometimes people become overqualified for the job or might be over, claude will decide. When they come in, the job description is accurate. Does this apply also to organizations that are mostly volunteers? Should should be job descriptions for volunteers? Oh, yes, absolutely, we believe that that will our book applies to not just paid staff volunteers as well, and we actually have sample job descriptions are bored board positions and key volunteers, as well as from common staff within various non-profit organizations like your executive director, development director on bury the book is loaded with lots of resource is sample job descriptions but goes way beyond that just dahna job responsibilities and forms, you know, and we’re just taking one piece of the book and talking about job description, but there’s a lot more to it, and the thing is just loaded with but templates and resource is yes, thank you. I really wanted it to be as practical as possible, having worked in the nonprofit sector for many years, ourselves it’s more of a workbook where organizations can pick and choose the chapters that they need the resource is from, but it is a whole platform if an organization decides to go through the process for from everything from understanding the organizational. Learning and professional development culture to actually assessing stats, professional development and creating a professional development goals and abducted tied to the strategic als of the organization. Yes. All right, all right. So where do we start this job? Description process. I mean, i know who it starts with its doctor, the supervisor. How does that what is the what the person need to do to get started? Well, the supervisor should really look at the position itself and often there’s different philosophies on job descriptions. And our our philosophy is that the organization, the supervisor, should build the job around the position and not the person because people change andi really, to really get an understanding of what is needed to advance the organisation for words. So we have something called a proficiency mapping cool and are in our book where supervisors can really identify the called common confidences that the knowledge, skills, abilities and other characteristics needed to perform the job and then rape those competencies on different proficiency levels. We use the profession into level scale created by the national institute of health, and they’ve been doing this type of job description, worked for many, many years. And really getting understanding of what level that the position and the responsibilities to need to be at when we talked earlier a few minutes ago about outdated job descriptions common, another problem with outdated job description says they’re not often at the level that the position needs to be on a smaller non-profits with great to have people who could do lots of different responsibilities, but sometimes we have very high expectations that someone in entry level type job might be more responsibilities, say, manager or leading the organization through some sort of process when that’s not necessarily the right level for that job, you have these five proficiency levels fundamental, novice, intermediate advanced and an expert yeah, and we provide definitions and also example words and responsibilities at each level. I like to tell you i jump pretty quickly from fundamental toe expert on i think, if i’d done something once, that makes me an expert, so i don’t know if that fits within your construct, but like one time i’m not the expert the first time, but after i’ve done it one time i consider myself an expert. Andi that’s cost that’s cost me a lot of money in like home repairs and things, but i can’t get around it that’s, that’s but that’s, probably not talking, doesn’t fit within your your definitions well, generally the expert and advance our our our director level positions on responsibilities. So at the executive director, we would hope a most size organizations that the person the person holding that position would have advanced on expert level. But we understand that at the lower level positions the coordinators, entry level positions that they’re more at the the novice and the intermedia level. And yes, i mean, we’ve found that it’s helpful, starting with the supervisor to create these confidences and proficiency levels on dh, then down the line, wei have employees assess themselves and not do a real comparison over the competencies profession? Okay, yes, we’re going to get that so so after the supervisors part, then then what’s next in creating these optimal job descriptions, the next step is really getting documenting the employees responsibilities, and they don’t see what the supervisor has done. But if you do have someone in that particular position just making sure that all the responsibilities are are documented because the supervisor might not have a buy-in of everything that’s employees doing. But obviously, if it’s a new position or if the job description has never been done before, then they would have the supervisor job. Do the proficiency mopping. Ok, ok, but but the next step now is the is the is the employee e-giving their input into what their responsibilities are around the competencies and the proficiency levels. Yeah, the next up, it’s. Just the employees identifying their their responsibility. Okay, a faster proficiency levels. Quite yet just for the job description itself. It’s really making sure that all the responsibilities are identified and the supervisor is really the one that making sure that all the proficiency levels are identified. All right. Ok. Ok. And we mentioned these competencies. Can you give us some examples of competencies? Sure. Before you do that, i want to tell you about the process that we took to to identify ten core confidences for non-profit managers like holly. And i actually did some some national surveys and looked at literature around training needs of non-profit managers and a what their confidence cesaire needed. So this is really backed and research that we identify the ten course set. Of common confidence ease that non-profit managers possessed. They’re very general there everything from advocacy to communications, marketing, the financial management to fund of elopement way also have human resource is way also in the book go through the process of have helping organizations create their own sub confidence ease, because since the time core competencies are very general, we know that each organization is different in their culture and each position and as well as department, it’s organization, house, apartment, that they have their own core competencies that are important to that organization. So we’ve also provided some examples of different size organizations and the sub confidence juices issues that they have so well, for example, intercultural confidence. He is a very important sub competency for many organizations. Uh, two working, working well under pressure are working with certain population. Uh, so we we worked with various organizations and their different types of missions required different confidences. So we worked with homeless organization last semester, and they, you know, they require their staff tohave competencies and understanding about people who have housing, have challenges. Okay, let’s. See, we have just about a minute before before we take a break. And then we’ll continue. I should do this. We haven’t mentioned the board should be job descriptions for board positions. Definitely we have. We have a sample job description for board chair board treasurer for secretary on various board general boardmember on there’s a there’s. A lot of resource is not just in our book, but out there on the web as well for creating and managing board job description. That’s an important piece we’ve we’ve done this process with all volunteer run organizations where it’s just the board teo organizations that have paid staff, maybe they’re smaller, they have all the board do their job descriptions and then the one to two staff members that they have so it’s important that it’s not just a staff process that boardmember look at their job descriptions and revised them. Okay, let’s, go out for a break, and when we come back, heather, of course we’ll stay with us and we’ll keep talking about your job descriptions, and then we’ll move to mapping, mapping you, thies competencies and proficiency levels to the job description. Stay with us what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests. Check this out. From seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. I took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card. It was like it was phone this email thing. Is fired-up that’s? Why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life, it sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell, you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent lively conversation top trends and sound advice that’s tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m lawrence paige, no knee author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. I know i say it every time. Maybe maybe you listeners get here. Tired of hearing me say this, but i wish lawrence would pronounce his last name. Panjwani. He’ll be so much more beautiful than paige. No. Ni lawrence. I’ve said this a large his face. So no it’s, not like i’m going behind his back. And pandiani will be so beautiful. Lorenzo lorenzo panjwani okay, okay. Heather let’s move now. Tio mapping what is this? What is it? What is that? The mapping process that comes next? Well, this is the mapping process is really about revising the job description and making sure that it matches up with the responsibilities really, that are needed. We advise organizations to separate job responsibilities by the confidence categories, so we often see job descriptions that have the whole long list of job responsibilities, but were our processes to separate them by category? Cory so that it’s clear on the difference competencies that are needed with that particular job. We also have the manager identified proficiency levels based on the job responsibility, action, words. And so this is where? This is the revision process, the different levels and making sure that the wording really matches up with the proficiency level. So we might have a position that is hyre up that it needs to be or lower and can be a giant. Now you mentioned job responsibility, action words. What defined those for us? Well, the action words are provided in the proficiency mapping scale. So as we talked about before there’s five perfect into levels from fundamental awareness novice, intermediate to advance and experts and each of these i have a different level and we have action words that are associated with each level. So as i mentioned about the higher level positions we have the dance level there’s there’s, some facilitating, leading liaising managing and the expert level. We’re synthesizing. We’re training were troubleshooting. And so these hyre level action words are associated with hyre level job responsibilities. Okay, yeah. And that’s me. Well, i like to focus on the expert. You know, like i said, i would skip over novice, intermediate and advanced. I go right from fundamental to expert one one one one time. So i’ve gotten used to use those expert use those expert examples that’s where hyre just in my mind that’s where i belong let’s see? Okay, so in this job in the in this revision process now it’s, the employees and the supervisor working together, uh, well, family it’s the supervisor making sure that the job description is aligned because as much as we’d like to be an employee involved in the process, the next step in the talent of altum platform, which i don’t have time to talk about here is the individual professional development assessment and that’s where an employee actually haserot their confidence season proficiency level so it’s really helpful that they don’t see realign job description before that, that there going off of what they i think that they’re expertise is and their proficiency level is. And then that way you could do an accurate, um comparison. So what the job requires? Okay, well, you might be surprised we might have time to get to assessment a little bit. Way might be surprised. Um, now so the mapping there are there was, i think six steps on don’t really have you know, we don’t have time to go through all six of them, but help help us. Understand an overview of the process a little more detailed, and then we have so far. Yeah, so, as i mentioned in the first step of separating the job responsibilities by competency category, you’ll see then if there’s gaps and if you’ll have competency categories that you’re not covering it’s amazing how many organizations that we’ve worked with through this process, where they are missing confidence, ease for specific positions, like operations manager or or the executive director where often maybe, you know hr is a part of the operations manager job, but it’s not really accurately included are reflected in the job description or the job responsibilities or information technology is often a part of someone’s job, but not necessarily included, so it really helped helps organization to identify gaps with responsibility and say, well, we don’t have anything in this competency category. So let’s, let’s talk about what we need to include, i see, okay, it strikes me that this whole process to is going to i guess you said it, but just is going to make sure that you’re not bringing in let’s say, entry level people and having expectations that are unreasonable for them in terms. Of responsibilities and competencies exactly. We we also talk about degree levels as well and compensation. We worked with quite a few smaller non-profits that, like tio, take all the responsibilities that we provide his examples, and and use them to hyre their new entry level staff at the masters level were like, whoa, you know, let’s think about it’s entry level, do they really need a masters? Or do they even need a bath? Kottler for that regard, so this really helped to think through the position responsibilities that you need for the organization and ok, if i really need all those responsibilities and maybe it’s two positions, not one or i’m i think i’m being unrealistic with how many responsibilities that i’m requiring in this in this position. So having those those sometimes difficult conversations about what’s realistic for the organization since restoring tio, we’re talking about the possibility of entry level employees what’s your feeling on starting people at at low salaries? Well, i’m a little biased because i advocate for living wages because i teach graduate students in a lot of them are often on the job market, either during their degree program are afterwards and it’s really disappointing to see them have to take very low wage starting jobs also research so that it costs between seventy five, to one hundred for fifty percent of employees annual salary when they leave. And so what i’ve seen with my students and former employees is that bill, if they’re not getting adequate living wage compensation, then the leave within a few months and that actually costs the organization a lot of money organizations, i don’t think we often realize how much time and effort it takes latto post the new position to interview the people to do the training and that’s that’s money, and what will when in fact, we could pay a living wage and a good starting salary for entry level employees and have them stay longer even if they stay a year to that’s that’s better than the cost of done, leaving within a few months because they find a better opportunity that pays better. Excellent! We’ve got to leave it there. Unbelievable! You were right. We didn’t have a chance to talk about assessment. You are right, but you got it by the book it’s talent development platform she’s heather l carpenter, phd and you’ll find her on twitter at heather carpentier carpenter and take off that last are thank you very much. Other thank you. I’ve been a real pleasure next week. I just don’t know, because i’m recording this a couple of weeks ahead. It won’t suck, i promise you that if you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com where in the world else would you go? I told you i was coming back pursuant full service fund-raising you’ll raise laundry carts more money. I’m not talking about those one person metal things that you pushed down the street to go to the local laundromat or your stuff him in the in the back seat of your minivan, i’m talking those big plastic monsters on the loading docks at hotels and jim’s with sheets, and the towels are spilling over the sides, but instead of sheets and towels filled with money pursuing dot com, our creative producer is clear meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez susan chavez dot com on our music is by scott stein bourelly next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder pregnant mark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. I took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe. Add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell, you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.