Tag Archives: executive leadership

Nonprofit Radio for March 1, 2021: Leadership For Strategic Execution

My Guest:

Joe Pajer: Leadership For Strategic Execution

.

There’s lots of talk about strategic planning. Lots of time and money devoted to ambitious plans—which often sit on a shelf. It takes leadership to drive strategic execution. What does that leadership look like? Joe Pajer walks us through, with his experience from the corporate sector.

 

 

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[00:01:56.64] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of a chroma top CIA if I saw that you missed this week’s show Leadership for Strategic Execution. There’s lots of talk about strategic planning, lots of time and money devoted to ambitious plans, which often sit on a shelf. It takes leadership to drive strategic execution. What does that leadership look like? Joe Pager walks us through with his experience from the corporate sector. Antonis. Take two podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s my pleasure to welcome Joe pager to nonprofit radio. He retired from the corporate CEO office. He grew revenues, profits, customers and employees at three companies for private equity investors. He’s been on the boards of the Pittsburgh Symphony and the Carnegie Museum of Natural History, and in Pittsburgh, it’s Carnegie, not Carnegie. Now he’s a board member for the ST James School in Hagerstown, Maryland, and the Trinity School for ministry in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He was my fraternity pledge trainer at Pi Kappa Alpha at Carnegie Mellon University. Back then, he was zip. You’ll find him on LinkedIn. He’s retired in a board member. Doesn’t need to be anywhere else. Welcome to nonprofit radio zip.

[00:02:01.24] spk_0:
Thanks, tony. Good to have you. Real pleasure. Thank you. Glad to be here. I’m

[00:02:05.74] spk_1:
glad. Tell us. Tell me about this private equity investment firm work. What does that look like?

[00:03:22.24] spk_0:
Sure, that came in the latter half of my career. Before that, I was an executive at larger companies. But you know what private equity is all about? There’s many different models, but the particular group of investors I worked for, um, they by businesses and they grow them, and then they sell right. So, um, typically, we buy it from a founder, right? Someone who founded the business, he was ready to retire and would like to make some money off of the business. And they usually their businesses that these were technology businesses that that we could see tremendous upside to. Right. So we do a lot of searching for those with tremendous upside. You know, founders are good guys, but they often our unit dimensional. So we could add things like professional sales or new strategies, etcetera and or maybe even combine them with other companies and grow them. So that’s what I did for the last 12 to 15 years. Is, um, three different companies sequentially, We bought them. We grew them, as you said in terms of revenue customers, number of people. Um, and then we sold them to larger companies for a nice profit. And it’s very fun, Very fun. You got to walk in every couple of years to a brand new business, try to figure out the market in the business and figure out how to grow it.

[00:03:29.24] spk_1:
So were there, uh, potentials to make money that you’re not sharing with your with your friend tony-martignetti at the time? Was there like insider information? You could have. You could have snuck to me. Was there a way for me to make some money off these three?

[00:03:53.44] spk_0:
All of the information is inside because they’re private companies. So there’s no there’s no public listing of the companies that are strictly privately held, their owned entirely by the investors. So yeah, there was no opportunity for you to make money unless you’d come and work for us. In which case, then, Yeah, you could have made some money.

[00:04:51.44] spk_1:
Okay, We’re going to find out what that would look like if I had, indeed been working with you. Um all right, so you’ve got some You got some ideas. And, you know, we’ve shared some concerns about, uh, as I said in the intro Strategic plans. Lots of resources going to ambitious. Uh, maybe grandiose plans will just will be kind and say ambitious, but execution, Uh, I think. And you’ve you’ve heard stories, and I think you’ve seen some, too. Um, and even in the corporate sector, um, not not not executed. Just kind of sitting around and not really seeing the change that was envisioned by the by the ambitious plan. So I’m guessing, you know, I mean, we should start with, like, vision and goals, and right before we were gonna have a We got a vision to this before we can start to do the execution part.

[00:08:10.14] spk_0:
That’s right. That’s right. Listen, we’ve all we’ve all seen organizations, companies, nonprofits, maybe our own households. Who knows that, uh, well laid plans that never happened, right? They just never happened. Um, and you know, I learned this early in my career. I was once asked by a nine year old hockey player that I was coaching. He said, Coach winded. When did you decide that you wanted to be our CEO? And I thought about it for a few minutes, and I said might have been the first business meeting I ever sat in because I knew what we were talking about wasn’t gonna get done. It drove me out of my mind. Right? So, look, we’ve all been there. It starts, though. Obviously it starts with having a good plan, a plan that you believe in before you ever get to the execution part. So, you know, just real briefly, I’m sure you have plenty of shows on how to build a strategy and a plan, and there’s plenty of people out there doing that. Are we have, yes, but a couple of criteria. One you ought to be able to answer for me really quickly. What you want that business, what you want your organization to look like three years from now, and you ought to be able to do that in three bullet points. I’ll give you five if you go to seven. The last two better be really interesting. 85. So you know you have that vision and that’s a vision. All right. You know you can have visions that are this. That the other thing? No, no. Just tell me if I show up three years from now. What’s going to be different about this place, right? And look, that’s not easy. You got to think about it. You’ve got to work hard on it. It’s another job, necessarily just for the CEO. It’s also a job for the board in a non profit. They need to share that vision responsibility and then then below that. Okay, that’s the vision. That’s what we’re going to look like at three years from now. What are the 5 to 7 things we need to do? Those are the strategic initiatives. Alright. Now here the board has less of a role in my opinion, and the CEO or the director in a non profit has a very large piece here. All right. They need to know their organization where they need to take it. Um, and then a 3rd 3rd point, you know. So if you can if you can clearly show me that Hey, we’re going to do this and that’s going to lead us to that. Well, then you’ve got a good strategy, or at least a good strategic plan. There’s another piece to it, too, though, which is, and this is the tricky question that sometimes people trip up on. Tell me what you’re not going to do. Tell me what people around here have been saying we ought to do, and you’ve decided I’m not doing that. All right, We’re not going down that path. So if you don’t do that, you’re going to run into problems with resource allocation and focus and people’s commitment and engagement. So a really good strategy will tell you what you’re not going to do. All right, so, you know, that’s all I’ll say about strategic planning right now Is the output of that has to has to fit those three criteria,

[00:08:35.24] spk_1:
you emphasis believing in the plan because because later on we’re gonna talk about allocating resources around the plan to the plan taking resources away from those things were not going to do anymore and putting them towards what we are going to do. So if you’re going to do that with confidence, you’ve got to believe in where you’re headed.

[00:09:42.54] spk_0:
Let me touch on that really quickly. It’s a great point. I hear from people we don’t have the money to invest in this. Well, that either means that your plan is garbage. All right, that it doesn’t really work mathematically. So you haven’t really worked hard enough on your plan. I got an idea, right? I got an idea. And if we go do it will grow our organization in this way. All right. Well, if you grow your organization in that way, you’ll have the money to fund, you know? So either you don’t believe that’s actually going to happen, right? Or you don’t actually buy into the idea. So you know, when you come when somebody comes back to me and says we don’t have enough money to do this initiative, right? And you thought This is where I want to be in three years? This is critical to doing it. I’ve done the math. If I invest in it, it will happen. And it will benefit the organization if you come back so we don’t have the money to do it. I’m just saying you don’t understand the plan or you don’t buy into it one or the other. Right now, it could be that the plan is wrong. In which case, sharpen your pencil, Go back to work.

[00:09:48.34] spk_1:
Maybe you have something to talk about, but right, it’s either a belief in the plan or or you or you believe in the plan or you or you or you don’t.

[00:10:06.94] spk_0:
Yeah, you’re either resisting it or yeah, but the plan says that will accomplish. That’s the key. The plan says it will accomplish your goal. So how can you not find the investment? To do that, you must write, all right, or you haven’t worked out. Point

[00:10:35.94] spk_1:
is either got the wrong plan or you don’t believe in what you the plan that you have. Okay, what about the board? You mentioned the board’s role in the vision, but not so much in the the, uh, tactics are going to use to get there. What about the interfering board, or or even board member or a couple of members? Maybe it’s not the full board, but a lot of times it doesn’t matter. What about those? Those interloping interfering board members who do get involved in the tactics, the methods we’re gonna we’re gonna use to execute.

[00:10:40.14] spk_0:
Yeah. So, um, for the record, very clearly, I’ve been on four very good boards for perfect

[00:10:46.11] spk_1:
boards. And

[00:12:24.54] spk_0:
we don’t have this. We don’t have that issue anywhere. Um, look aboard. Um, a board of trustees for a school or a private private education institutions. They are responsible for preserving the vision and the values defining the vision and the values of that school. That’s what they’re there for, right? Um, they’re responsible for hiring the person to get them to that vision. Um, that person needs to create the strategy with a lot of good input from the board, but it’s their responsibility. Whoever that leader is of the organization. CEO, headmaster, director, whatever their title, um, they’re responsible for that. That’s their job. That’s what you should have hired. Alright, if somebody, because the board will never have the day to day feel for the business that that person does, right, because they only meet quarterly. Um, So if you have an interfering board member, I would argue that you have a governance problem and a strategic problem. Um, not necessarily a person problem, although it may well be a person problem as well. And I’d recommend that you go by any number of good books of how to set up good boards and go fix your board. Right? All right, you cannot. Now listen. There’s people who can help, right? There’s people with contacts. There’s people with experience. There’s an absolutely, you know, tap into them. But ultimately, the head of that organization is responsible for running that organization.

[00:12:29.35] spk_1:
It’s got to be the CEO

[00:12:31.17] spk_0:
got to be. Yeah,

[00:12:53.04] spk_1:
all right. You got some, uh, sort of steps or, you know, some. Yeah, a pathway. The pathway to, uh, to strategic execution and not surprising. Uh, lots of folks say this. We’re starting with what we’re gonna measure. Yeah, metrics. What’s your what’s your What’s your advice around here?

[00:13:10.64] spk_0:
So, a couple of things, um, let me start. Let me let me back up just a half a step and talk about something that’s, uh, near and dear to my heart called. Um, I’m stealing this from I was trained as a Baldridge examiner. That term probably doesn’t mean many too many things to people.

[00:13:16.86] spk_1:
We got jargon jail on nonprofit radio. Yeah. Just committed an offense. Baldridge Examiner

[00:13:48.34] spk_0:
folks that are younger than you and I would never would never even have heard of it. But it’s an old quality thing, Sort of like Six Sigma. And the idea was, it was run by the U. S. Federal government was quite a good program, and there was a set of criteria for a business. And you would examine the business against these criteria. And you could potentially win a Baldridge Award, which was a very big deal. Um, companies like Motorola paved. Malcolm

[00:13:52.14] spk_1:
Malcolm. Malcolm Baldrige.

[00:14:04.54] spk_0:
Absolutely. Malcolm was the cabinet with the secretary of Commerce under Ronald Reagan. Believe he died in a horse accident. Um, and they named this thing after all. Right, So

[00:14:07.51] spk_1:
Congress, A bizarre polo accident.

[00:16:09.14] spk_0:
Yeah. No, it was more like Western rodeo stuff. He was a tough guy. So civilized. The horse was tougher in any case, so it’s named after him. He was part of the driving force, and and his death actually helped get passed in any case. Long story. They had this method of when you examine a business you find out, right? Do they have a plan? Right. What result is it that they’re trying to improve? Let’s say they’re trying to improve market share, right? Do they have a plan to improve market share? Right. And you say Look at their plans. They have to produce one. And if they had a plan, they would get sort of a 10% of the total score. Right? Um and then you would look at how do you measure it? And they look at the result. And if you were measuring the result, you might get another 20% mhm. But 70% of the score on that was associated with proved to me you’re actually executing the plan. Show me that you’ve actually done it. All right, because so many people will use the sporting analogy here. So many so many companies and so many organizations have the plan, and they look at the results. And if the results go bad, they go. The plan was wrong. They never checked to see whether they actually implemented the plan correctly. So, you know, sporting analogy, a team goes out, hockey team goes out to play on the ice. Um and and the coaches say This is the system we’re going to use and they go out and they lose the game. And of course, winning or losing was the metric and come back in and say we lost. We’re changing our system. No one would ever do that. They go, let’s look at the video and see whether we actually use the system. Right? And this is a big This is a big thing that happens. Um, in businesses and other organizations, that middle step is what I call strategic execution. And I’m telling you, it is it is more rare than you think. Right?

[00:16:11.14] spk_1:
And you’ve seen this on the corporate side as well. This is absolutely for some revolution revelation that you’ve only seen on the on the not for profit side. Yeah,

[00:16:19.64] spk_0:
over and over again. The execution

[00:16:29.34] spk_1:
all right. And that, you know, we were talking earlier, and you’ve made the point that, um that leads a lot. A lot of CEOs to create reorganization

[00:16:33.93] spk_0:
so

[00:16:35.29] spk_1:
that they can They can say they’ve done something. I mean, they’re linked in profile is now more robust. They reorganized around something.

[00:17:12.04] spk_0:
Yeah, You see it a lot I don’t mean to bash large companies, but because large companies are much more difficult beasts, right. But very large companies do this all the time. They say that their strategy is to reorganize them. And yes, it makes them feel good because they can check off a box that they indeed reorganized. They laid off some people here. They put somebody new in charge here. They restructured, etcetera, etcetera. Um, I don’t want to be too negative, but golly, I don’t know what that gets done, and I work.

[00:17:14.41] spk_1:
There’s a lot of wasted, a lot of wasted reorganization

[00:18:28.84] spk_0:
and the issues, the things that need to be changed, the things that need to be executed, no pun intended right are or what you’re doing right. And where you’re focused, right? It’s not who’s leading it. And I mean it is who’s leading it, but it’s not entirely who’s leading it, and it’s yeah, so it’s just to avoid Listen, all of this is hard to work, right? Um, the reason the reason I did it was because if I did and I’d lose my job, these investors, you know, they weren’t interested in people who weren’t actually growing the company, right? I mean, you could have as many board meetings where you said all the right things and pretty slides as you wanted. If the company wasn’t growing, it wasn’t your job anymore, right? And by the way, very, very few people in my position work for the same investors twice. They usually do one, and then they find a different set. And I’m the only person who’s worked for this set of investors three times, okay, on three different companies. So it’s all about finding that thing that has to happen to grow the company and then making sure it gets executed. That’s why I have sort of a particular affinity or sensitivity to this issue.

[00:19:12.14] spk_1:
But so much of this is moving people. You know, people people don’t like change. I don’t care how much they’re paid. They’re still human beings. I don’t care how long they’ve been there, you know? Of course, the longer the maybe the more difficult to change. But, you know, people are resistant to change. You talk about the family, you know, people don’t like to move. People don’t like to change jobs. People don’t like change within their jobs. People don’t like to have to go to a different supermarket in the middle of a pandemic. People don’t like not being able to go out and have dinner with friends in a pandemic. People don’t like change, but so much of what we’re talking about is driving change. Yeah, you’re driving change in a company that’s driving change among a bunch of people.

[00:19:17.14] spk_0:
That’s

[00:19:32.44] spk_1:
what the company is made of. It’s, uh, it’s it’s got, It’s got assets, got hard assets, It’s got people. The the Howard assets are easy to move around. You can ship those, you can sell these, you can acquire some. But moving the freaking people, that’s that’s what we’re talking about. Moving people to change that they don’t like

[00:19:59.14] spk_0:
it is. And I would imagine that it’s more difficult in the nonprofit sector than it is in the corporate sector. And the reason I would say that is because in the corporate sector there is a big forcing function called competition right and investors, and you have to make the numbers, so if you don’t change, you know, you go away quickly and and so let me let me talk a little bit. Then about about what I see about how you do strategic execution. Because it is exactly that. It’s about changing the people.

[00:21:03.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times You want to be in papers like that? What about CBS Market Watch? The Chronicle of Philanthropy turn to has the relationships with these outlets and lots of others like them. They’re known in the industry so that when the outlets are looking for experts on charitable giving or non profit trends or philanthropy, they call turn to turn to calls. You. You know that because you’re their client, they’re going to call you. They can help you get the exposure. The media that you’re looking for relationships, right? It’s all about leveraging relationships. They’ve got them. Turn hyphen two dot c O. Now back to leadership for strategic execution. All right? Yeah, because, yeah, I’m gonna I’m gonna rant here about

[00:21:09.41] spk_0:
change

[00:21:19.44] spk_1:
before we get to metrics and resources. You know, you got to move people. You got to motivate people positively or negatively, I suppose. But you got to move people and you get people to do things that they don’t want to do.

[00:22:38.34] spk_0:
I used to tell this story really, in big, big, setting, small settings everywhere. I said, You know, you get on the airplane, you read in the airplane magazine and they’re interviewing some executive and a question answered thing and you’re going through it. And at some point they go, What’s the secret? And the executive goes, It’s all about the people and you go, Oh, crap. Like everybody gives that answer really again. And then I thought about it for a while, and I’m like, Gosh, it really is all about the people. It’s right. It’s a boring answer and it is the answer. Listen, here’s how you get people to change. Yeah, One of the things I loved about my career was I would walk into a company that had not accomplished something for a long time, and they had many things in front of them that they could accomplish, and we would go accomplish it and people would go. How did that happen? And they feel good about it, and they’d have a I used to say, I want to give them a story to tell their grandkids when they’re sitting in a rocking chair on the front porch. Right about business. Most people go through their business careers going. Yeah, there’s that over there. And then all the stuff I like over here. And I want to have something they like from their job. So, look, how do you change? How do you get people

[00:22:55.14] spk_1:
before the first? Okay. Before the first milestone, right before the first home run. This company has now achieved something that it could have achieved 10 years earlier. But, you know, there’s a bit of a founder syndrome, and they were unit dimensional, as you said. And so how

[00:22:55.34] spk_0:
do you get them bought in

[00:22:56.38] spk_1:
before that first home run? How do you get some momentum going And you get interest?

[00:23:30.84] spk_0:
Exactly. So look, um, what do you say? Well, what you do is this. First you got to find that strategy that’s all important. And you got to find the planets, and then you must communicate very clearly. Okay, You must communicate. And look, there’s some pieces to that communication. First of all, I heard a long time ago and always strive to do this. You should speak at an eighth grade level. Okay? You have to understand How can

[00:23:32.74] spk_1:
do a bunch of engineers at a tech company M B A s your CFO?

[00:23:55.24] spk_0:
Yeah. Your operations team who are hourly workers. Right. Um, so you’ve got a range. You’ve got a range in there. Speak at the eighth grade club. Secondly, make sure what you’re saying is a story. All right? I’ll go back to coaching little kids in hockey. I could go up

[00:24:20.74] spk_1:
hockey. It’s about your your affinity for hockey’s obviously coming out. Yes, I want I want you to know, uh, for for listeners because you won’t be able to see video. This is the sound of this. That’s me, uh, flipping pages through my pi Kappa Alpha Pledge book. So there’s there’s lots of there’s lots of history in these pages. Joseph Steven, pager from Meriden, Connecticut.

[00:24:23.68] spk_0:
There you go.

[00:24:24.74] spk_1:
Uh, and hockey is. Hockey is prominent on your page,

[00:24:28.21] spk_0:
and it remains. This would

[00:24:30.22] spk_1:
be from 1980. I still have this from 1980

[00:25:59.04] spk_0:
throughout my career. Uh, but here’s Here’s the deal. I can sit in front of a group of 15 year olds, and I could show them all the exes and ohs on the whiteboard and say This is what we’re gonna do today. That’s what we’re gonna do today. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they’d all be fidgeting and not paying attention. Or, like 15 year olds do. They’ll be staring at the floor, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then But if I if I came in and said, Let me tell you about a game I played in college and what happened? Their eyes are beyond me. They’d be lifted up from the floor. We respond to stories, Okay? People learn from stories. They don’t learn from textbooks, right? They learn from stories. This is what you must do as a leader. You must tell the future story. Okay? You must say, here are the great things were going to do for our community in our space. Here’s what we’re doing today. Here’s how that’s going to change and be even better three years from now. Yeah. How are we going to get there? We’re going to do these three things, okay? It’s going to feel a little different to you, but we’re going to do these three things. And do you know how many people are going to buy into that? the first time you tell them. Two. There’s if there’s 50 people in the room. Three

[00:26:03.21] spk_1:
allies you’ve got to allies you can leverage.

[00:29:09.74] spk_0:
So what do you got to do? You’ve got to tell them that same story over and over again and person by person as they ask questions. And your job is over the next 6 to 9 months to reduce it to the impact on them as an individual and how they can contribute and how they can be a piece of a piece of it. This communication aspect is very important. What I see, what I see executives do is they think, what I said that last time. I’m going to change it this time. No, no, you don’t understand. Just because they heard it once from your lips, they don’t believe it, and they probably don’t remember it. You’ve got to keep saying you got to keep saying it. Then of course, you’ve got to lead by example. Right now, you’re in a position this will go back sort of into metrics and resource allocation. You’re in a position to make a bunch of decisions and to make them in front of everybody. They have to be consistent with that vision you’re describing. So you might decide to move resources from a status quo kind of a project to the new project, and you would explain it that way. Even if they’re upset, you might decide to set certain metrics and review those metrics on a monthly or quarterly basis. Really, the metrics that you set and everybody knows there’s a billion metrics for everything. You got to pick the two or three that make a difference to your strategy and just work on those If somebody wants to know some other thing, here’s an example. Software company, last software company, Iran. We would sell the software. Then we would install it for the customer and run it for them. We call that activating it, and then we would, um, run it for them. And if they were satisfied all the time, we would make a lot of money because they would never leave us, right? So the sale part we call booking the middle part we call activating the third part we call just satisfying. And I just reduced it to that. We only have one mission here. Book activates, satisfied all of you are involved in one of those three. Okay, Now, let’s talk about how you’re involved and what you can do and get the managers in. They’re talking. This is 400 people. But that became, You know, that became our mantra. Book activates satisfied? Well, where’s gross margin in that? Where’s cost savings loses. Where is entering a new market? Well, we have stuff to do there, too. That’s it Was secondary to those three things. If you did those three things, you didn’t have to know what I used to say. If you do those three things, don’t you worry about profitability? Like a knife through butter will be profitable, I guarantee it. Right. And you don’t even need to see the profitability. So you got to make it simple. You gotta make it pity. You gotta make it catching. You’ve got to say it over and over and over again. And if you do that for six months of those 50 people in your organization, you’ll have 48 of them. And then there’s going to be too

[00:29:11.74] spk_1:
right. The recalcitrance.

[00:31:31.04] spk_0:
Yeah. They’re not going to go. You I need to go have a conversation. You need to do your job as a leader. And look, the conversations not mean the conversation is this. We’re a team. Everybody always says I’m all in. It’s all about team. Well, we’re a team. And now we’re gonna put our money where our mouth is, right? The team has decided to go in this direction. I understand that you’ve been here for a long time and that you did things a certain way and all that stuff. I get it, I get it and it’s all valid. And it was We’ve heard it, but we’ve decided as a team to go in another direction. I need you to come back and see me tomorrow. Come back tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon. Stop by my office. Just tell me, can you come with us? And if you can’t And let’s talk about how to how to separate our pads gracefully, right, it’s not a threat, you know, it’s but it is a it is necessary. You can’t have one guy on a professional sports team saying I don’t agree with the system. You just can’t. You’re never gonna win anything, right. And this is a very reasonable approach. I mean, and quite frankly, every time I’ve had this conversation, they’ve come the next morning and said, I’m in now. Some of them might have come and said, Well, I’m scared now. And so I’m in others. Might others, I think, really went home. And when? What am I doing? Why? Why am I so against this? Why can’t go along with it, right? And and they jump in and they become productive that afternoon. Right? Um, and in a couple of cases, they’ve come back and said, You know what? I really like the company that was here before you got here, Joe. And I’m not bought into this one. So how can How can we? How can I leave gracefully? Can I have a month to find? You know, you can absolutely just you say nice things about me. I’ll say nice things about you. Um, and let’s do it. So So that’s, uh, and by the way, it’s good. It’s too recalcitrance is what you call

[00:31:33.39] spk_1:
them. Yeah,

[00:31:44.14] spk_0:
they can be a huge issue, so if they exist, you must take action or you’re not going to get there because they will continue. Two needle.

[00:31:45.06] spk_1:
They’re like a cancer they’re they’re growing. They’re they’re trying to find their trying to grow their tribe right there, trying to grow their anti team.

[00:32:07.24] spk_0:
But you do it. You do it with complete and genuine respect. They have an opinion. You have an opinion. You don’t agree. There’s no reason to be, um, Washington. Ask with each other. I think I

[00:32:36.54] spk_1:
know you said gracefully, No, I mean, you’re professionals and you’re right. You don’t agree. You don’t agree on the future of the company that the team has that has a team has elected to pursue. There’s no point in, you know, there’s no point you’re hanging around your your unhappy. It’s going to hurt the team. That’s right. Let’s separate gracefully. I like gracefully. You don’t hear that in business to it gracefully. Let’s do it gracefully. Yeah, Joe, let me ask you, Do you have interest in helping nonprofits with all this leadership and strategic execution that we’re talking about?

[00:32:57.54] spk_0:
Sure, absolutely. If a nonprofit is interested in learning more about this, I can certainly help them on a consulting basis, help them get set up and help them get executing on their initiatives. I could even help them develop the initiatives, if that’s what they so desire. But yeah. No, I I very much would be interested in helping nonprofits achieve their results. Basically.

[00:33:04.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. And so folks can get you on linked in

[00:33:07.34] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. Just look me up on LinkedIn. Last name is spelled P a J e r.

[00:33:16.64] spk_1:
You, uh, you have a little story about sales compensation.

[00:33:19.44] spk_0:
It relates

[00:33:20.82] spk_1:
to relates to metrics. But before we before we move on from metrics where we, you know, we digress, But we’re moving around. This is good. This is excellent. This is not just good. This is excellent leadership advice. Uh, you got the sales comp story?

[00:36:18.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Yes. So one of the aspects of metrics of choosing the proper metrics is that, you know, you actually have to be able to measure the thing, right? So if you say I want to measure, I want to measure, um you know, let’s say I’m a food bank and I want to measure somebody’s improving nutrition as a result of my efforts. Well, that’s probably not measurable. Okay? I mean, maybe it is, but, you know, it’s probably difficult to track that person The individual that you gave the food to and and even more so I would question your statistics is whether you could actually correlate your effort to his improving nutrition if it improved. But that’s something that’s sort of undoable. There’s others, though, that you want to measure how many new people you reached through a program, and people say, Well, we don’t track that, So you can’t use that as a metric. Yeah, you know, So every company I’ve gone into the sales, the sales compensation plan, right? We believe that sales people are motivated by making more money. Yet many executives I know have no idea what they’re Salesforce’s, how they’re Salesforce’s compensation plan works. That’s crazy, right? So every company and of course, what we care about is growing. So, of course, it’s important to us to have the right sales compensation plant so that we can drive the growth. So every company I’ve gone in and redesigned the sales compensation plan, it’s actually something that I’ve gotten quite good at it, Um, you know, it’s it’s an area of expertise and I’ve done it pretty much myself, right. Um and every time finances told me we could never track this. We could never do this. We could never. This is just what we’ve never. And in two of the three cases I got up. After about an hour’s worth of discussion, I got up. I said, I hear everything you’re saying. You must make it happen. We’ll talk again when you have a plan to make it happen. Not before. Okay, basically, I said, do it right and you just have to because they’ll find a million reasons not to. Right? So So that is my sales compensation story. So, um, you have to sometimes sometimes you and sometimes in that conversation on metrics. By the way, what they’re really saying is it’s not automated. They’re saying it’s not automated. It’s

[00:36:22.41] spk_1:
gonna be hard for us to achieve it hard for us to measure it. Not impossible. It’s just it’s just hard.

[00:36:54.13] spk_0:
And this is another little thing that I’ve learned. Some of the people who work for me called these patriotism is, but, um, if you want to get something automated, make people do it manually. You know they’ll find a way to automated, and it has the benefit of automating it correctly, because if they start out with automation. They don’t really know what they want yet, right? They don’t know the ins and outs of what they’re doing, so yeah, Okay.

[00:36:55.53] spk_1:
You say the number one resource number one job of a chief executive is resource allocation. We

[00:37:03.09] spk_0:
were touching on this

[00:37:28.03] spk_1:
before moving things away from what you don’t want to be and into what you do want to be. What else? What else? You know, again, You’re moving people. Now, this is This is some of that change Some people are gonna be into, uh, you know, whatever different team, a different activity, a different way of doing their old activity. That’s more of the change. So, you know, we talked. We talked something about that. But what? What’s your advice around Moving resources around?

[00:39:22.02] spk_0:
Well, I think look, resource allocation is fundamentally getting the right people number one and the right number of people number two. And this can be very tricky, especially with new what I’ll call new growth initiatives to the company. So in all three companies, we expanded globally, right? So we didn’t have anybody, so we had to get the right people in each country a long way away. to to do this correctly. We needed the right number of people in each of those countries, so expanding globally is one way. But another way might be to expand in non profit terms. Expand your services right? Say, I don’t want to do just this. I can also do this while I have the client in front of me so I can do even more good for the client by expanding my services as well. Do you have anybody in your organization who understands that new service the way they need to? Right. And if not, you need to go outside the organization. Do you have the right number of people to expand that new service? Okay, do I have the right number of people offering the current service? Because there’s a you know, it’s a it’s a little bit of a hill, and then and then it flattens out after there’s a peak and then a flattened out thing. When you introduce something new, so you maybe you may have introduced a new service three years ago, and you may still be staffed at your peak, and you don’t need to be right. You could reallocate some of those resources, Um, to the new service. These are the key discussions. You have to have the big one for me. Did we We talked about believing in the plan?

[00:39:25.48] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s wrapped up in that. If you’re going to move, Yeah. So resources around you got to believe in what you’re moving them toward,

[00:41:23.31] spk_0:
right? You just have to believe that that plan is going to work, right? And then you’ll be willing to commit, Um, you know, take, take another example. Um, this is a So you’re a nonprofit and you decide the development is critical to you. Okay, let’s say you’re a small educational facility, and you just gotta build the endowment, right? Or, you know, what’s happening to small private schools is going to happen to you. You’re not going to have the funds to build out the right buildings, etcetera. So you’ve got to build the endowment, and your three year plan is to add $10 million for the endowment, right? And look, you’ve had this development guy. He knows everybody, but it hasn’t really grown anything in years. Okay. All right. So you you decide. Okay. Well, maybe I move him someplace Maybe he’s going to retire. Maybe I just need a new development person, okay? And he’s got to go away. Fine. You go out to get the new development person and and you say, Well, I don’t want to spend more than $50,000 a year on this person, right? And somebody who’s 75,000 comes along right, but at a much higher skill set. No, I didn’t say 150,000, but 75,000? Well, you ought to do the work rather than just say that we’re all about saving money because we’re trying to help our clients. You ought to do the work to say, What would what would this guy get me that the other guy wouldn’t get? Me and I And how quickly will I get that $25,000 a year back, right? I mean, you know, it can’t always be about being the lowest cost provider of these services. You may well find that if if you hire and spend that extra 25,000, you’re going to grow your endowment by even more right and you’ll be able to provide even more dormitories or even better, etcetera. etcetera,

[00:41:42.91] spk_1:
and this goes back again, believing in the plan. And if, and as you said earlier, you said early on, if you don’t have the money for the plan, then then you haven’t thought through your plan adequately because you you picked an aspirational plan that you can’t afford to execute. And you can’t even do the fundraising to raise the extra money because it’s too astronomical. So you’ve got the wrong plan.

[00:42:43.70] spk_0:
That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. You know where this comes up. A lot is in building buildings. It’s almost always the case that that, you know, you think a building costs less than what it’s going to cost. And it actually you think it will deliver less value than it actually delivers, right? Certain buildings. I mean, you know, if you’re building an administration building right but a new SportsCenter on a at a boarding school or a or a conference center at a place like the Trinity School for Ministry, these things these things are going to have much more impact and what you’re projecting, So think about them carefully and take the risk. I think the risk

[00:45:56.79] spk_1:
it’s time for Tony, take two podcast Pleasantries. You remember those? The podcast audience? Oh, my, uh, so loyal. Um, you’ve been If you’ve been listening for a while, you’ll remember that I used to do live listener love affiliate affections and podcast pleasantries. Well, the first of those two go away was the affiliate affections. When I ended the affiliate program, that was, uh, we had a family of, uh, about 15, maybe 20 am and FM stations throughout the country that we’re carrying non profit radio and there’s weekly schedules, but it wasn’t really scaling. And it constrained us in terms of how exactly minutes and seconds how long a show needed to be. So I ended that and the live audience, the live listener love. You know, that ended with the pandemic. I no longer go to the New York City studio no longer with Sam. Sam is still there at and y. You know, talk talk radio dot N y c. That’s him. That’s that’s that network talk radio dot N.Y.C.. It’s talking alternative, so Sam is still there. But I ended with him because of the pandemic. So of course, no more live listener love. And now working through Zoom and audacity. It’s the podcast audience. The pleasantries go out, you’re you’re the last remaining audience. When I If I cast you off, that’s the, uh, what do you call a podcast so that nobody listens to a guy talking to himself in a closet? A guy whispering to himself. Um, now So the pleasantries go out. The pleasantries remain. The podcast pleasantries. Whatever time you’re listening, however we fit. Whether you’re painting your house, doing the dishes, commuting, there’s less commuting going on. I realized that, but there’s still some commuting going on. Maybe you’re driving to, uh, you’re driving to the store. Who knows? However, non profit radio fits into your schedule. Maybe binge watching binge listening on Sundays. Who knows, However, it fits in. The pleasantries go out to you are loyal podcast audience still there over 13,000 each week. Pleasantries, pleasantries to you podcaster, podcast, listener pleasantries. And that is Tony’s Take two we’ve got but loads or boo coo. That’s what we’ve got. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for leadership for strategic execution with Joe pager and communications, you already said, speaking an eighth grade level. I guess this is another plagiarism about the number of times you should communicate and how many people are going to reach.

[00:46:32.58] spk_0:
Yeah. So, uh, yeah, if you want to reach people, communicate four times as much as you think you need to and you’ll get to half the people you hoped. So just I I cannot stress it enough like consistency. Eighth grade level, frequency walk, you know, walk the talk. Just listen. The people are going to deliver the plant. You’ve just got to change them as

[00:46:47.08] spk_1:
the work is getting done. You know, now you’re looking over everybody’s shoulders. You’re talking about a 400 person organization. Okay, If it’s a four or eight person organization, the work is still getting done. While the CEO is not looking right there off somewhere,

[00:47:05.68] spk_0:
that’s and that’s another. I’m glad you brought that up. That is another very important part of communication. I’ll do it in an engineering way for you. Okay. Engineers, software engineers particularly, you know, they work in the dark and they work late at night, and they work alone,

[00:47:24.58] spk_1:
like the nerds that we knew at Carnegie Mellon. You get either one of us was in computer science, but we we saw them that in the winter they were walking barefoot or in flip flops. They’re always there. Always a couple of steps out of sync. But, you know, they’re They’re now leading professors at M I T. Or their founders of Google or Amazon from the 19 eighties. Yeah, they

[00:47:55.28] spk_0:
prefer to work alone. They prefer to work in the dark. Okay, great. That’s an over generalization. All my software friends. But you probably agree the so and their programming. They’re building your product, right? So now how do you guide their innovation? They’re making decisions alone in the dark at 3 a.m. In the morning.

[00:47:56.73] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:50:01.16] spk_0:
well, how do you guide their decision? Well, it’s gonna be It’s gonna come down to two. Did I give them a vision that they can work with him, right. So book activates. Satisfied? Right? I said satisfy. Right. And we’ve had discussions. So with book activates satisfy, you might, you might hold after you announce the grand theme, you might hold a session just on book just on activate. Just unsatisfied, right to explore it an even greater depth. Eventually, this this guy figures out because we’re talking about satisfying so much right that when a client using his software puts the wrong inventory in or when the inventory isn’t up to date, the software doesn’t work as well, and it doesn’t create as much value as the customer would like. And he comes up with a way to automatically grab their in their inventory at 3 a.m. When no one else is around. But he wouldn’t have known him. If you hadn’t have done all that work communicating right, he might have come up with a way to make it cost less right, which might have been welcome. Might be welcome. When you’re growing a company, I never worry about the cost. It’s like if the growth plans work, the cost will never catch up. All right, we’ll be growing too fast. So you know, that’s that’s the difference is what are these people thinking when they’re on the front line and a nonprofit example? Right? Let’s say you’re a food bank that wants to work more with partnerships, okay? And your local church has a has a food bank that could partner with the big food bank. Right? Um, but you know that in that food bank, the intention of forming those partnerships is to reach people. You’re not currently reaching right, which is very different than an intent of to reach people more effectively using a local organization more efficiently, right?

[00:50:06.06] spk_1:
Yeah. You’re talking about a new market.

[00:50:34.86] spk_0:
Yeah. Those are the two reasons you might do it. Well, if you’re if you know this person who runs a food bank at your church, you can you would now ask them. Well, who are you reaching and see if you know it’s the same person already, right? Or etcetera, etcetera. So you can make a more intelligent decision at your level because you understand the vision, the strategy, what’s important, what’s being measured. And it’s going over and over and over again. Yeah, yeah.

[00:50:48.86] spk_1:
Let’s talk about holding individuals accountable through the review. Um, looking at the challenges that they’re facing, what their personal plans are. Let’s talk about that whole accountability review.

[00:52:23.45] spk_0:
So, um, couple of things one As the leader, you must be personally involved in the review and in the details, and you must personally know the progress that’s being made. Okay, Um, so you need to establish the metrics. Well, first of all, you need to do this in a regular timing kind of way. So you need a cadence What I would call a management cadence. Now, with each initiative, there’s a couple of choices you could decide I’m going to meet Weekly. All right, so now you have a weekly meeting, that sort of independent of the nature of the initiative. But weekly, we’re getting together and we’re talking about it. Okay, that’s that’s one way to do it. And for some initiatives, that’s really good. Other initiatives are a little bit weirder ago, right? Some actions like the first actions might take a week. The next action might take a month, right? For two months. So you might want to have meeting the first week and the meeting the next week to make sure you did everything from the first week. You might want to delay it for another three weeks. So there’s something needy in the meeting. Right? Something’s changed. Now, Um, I believe that, uh um I have so many quotes from this. This guy I used to work with, Um, but one of them was personal embarrassment. Is that the number one driver of human behavior now we should not abuse

[00:52:25.31] spk_1:
that management by fear

[00:53:46.15] spk_0:
we should not have embarrassment. But another way, if you flip that to the positive personal recognition is also the number one driver of human behavior. So I believe in team meetings with everybody is involved. All right, so that we can look at the metrics. What are the results? Okay, those are the results. That’s five minutes. All right. Next most important question is on this initiative. Last week, we said we were gonna do this. This and this last meeting. We said we’re gonna do this, this and this. We’re gonna go around the room. Did you do it? That’s the first question. Yes or no? Okay. Yes or no? I also have this page tourism that we are not trying to be. Washington here. We are not trying to create a culture of blame. Okay? Because it’s useless. And you can see that, right? The You know, we’re not just trying to figure out who the millennium? No, we’re trying to understand, So if you didn’t do it, just say you didn’t do it. Now, if you didn’t do it for six weeks, you’re You know, I never yelled and I never saw in any meetings. But I’ve been told that I could make the air feel very heavy. So a little bit of tension is a good thing for the whole team. And if the person continues to not deliver, well, then it’s a private conversation. You’re

[00:53:50.07] spk_1:
going to have that conversation,

[00:54:01.84] spk_0:
but it really isn’t it much better for them to feel accountable in front of the team and just accountable to you, right and and like and have the teams say, Come on, we gotta get this done.

[00:54:44.54] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, I can see your part that’s going to bring a team together If if folks are folks are willing to open up and say, you know, we’re not on radio so I can say no, I fucked up. I just I told you two weeks ago this was a priority, and I haven’t made it a priority and and I will in the next two weeks. You know, if somebody I think if somebody can say that openly to their to their to their CEO and to their team, maybe even more more so to the team, then you know, then there’s Then there’s that. Then it is a team, okay? This guy didn’t pull his weight. She come a little short. We can, you know, next week. It might be me, but it’s an environment that that supports us and isn’t beating us down now. But you like, you know, you say if it’s six months or you know, whatever you know, then then we have to go a different

[00:54:53.97] spk_0:
strategy. But

[00:54:55.41] spk_1:
that can bring a team together. That kind of opened this. I think

[00:57:37.23] spk_0:
you You are 100% correct, and the rest of the team appreciates it. Right? So another important part of this cadence meeting is that you set the example for this. That you’re you’re inquisitive. You want to understand the problem. You want to help. You’re not there to go. You didn’t do it. I move you to this side of my ledger. When you do it, you go back to the other side. No, I mean, that’s fine. And then the other thing that’s popular today is the stand up meeting. We’re going to do this all in five minutes. Yeah, you know, do you You don’t understand anything in five minutes. That’s appropriate for some meetings, but on this. What you’re trying to find out is what’s holding me back. If you’re If you’re leading an organization like I was leaving, we’re If the company didn’t grow, it was me. I was done right? You very quickly. If you have half a brain at all, you’re walking around every day trying to figure out what’s what’s going to prevent you from growing. Okay, that’s all you care about, right? You’re like and every issue a people issue, customer issue operations issue, it all gets reduced to. Is it going to prevent me from making my plan? And if it is, how are we going to solve it quickly so that it accelerates me towards that plan? Right. Um so So that’s that’s what you want, Everybody. You want everybody understanding your behavior and your questions in those terms and that we’re all on the same team trying to do this and what happens is you’re right. The team gels the people who people want to finish by the meeting. You have to have the meetings that are forcing function people most of their work the night before the meeting. That’s okay with me. Okay? Right. And yeah, you keep them open. And let me tell you the people you have all kinds of levels of people in this meeting. Anyone who can affect this is in this meeting. Okay? And what happens over time if you set the right example? Number one, the people at the bottom will come to you. And they say I so appreciate being in that meeting with you and watching you think through these problems. Mm hmm. Your direct reports. The people report directly to you that those people report to They’ll start jumping into the meeting, doing the same thing. So so And so, Joe Joe down at a low level, says I tried to get it done, but I couldn’t. Because of this. Right? In the first meeting, I’ll go. Okay. Well, how are we going to fix that? In the third or fourth meeting? The person who reports to me will go Joe right after this meeting, come to see me. We’re going to fix that. And now I’m now I’m not on cruise control, but we’re all together. We’re all together, just trying to make this happen.

[00:57:48.53] spk_1:
Not all plans are gonna work, right?

[00:58:53.72] spk_0:
No, no, Absolutely not. I’m telling you that, uh, tell you two things. One. I never walked into a company and said, You doofus, is you didn’t know you should be doing this. Never, never found, never walked in and created a new plan. Okay, what I did was I walked in, Um, and there’s this guy can itchy. Oh, my is a Japanese guy who wrote something called the Mind of the Strategist. And I’d look at the situation and I try to break it into pieces, okay into the logical pieces and then work on each piece to see how I could make it better and then put them back together. Not all of them came back together. Some we put to the side others we made. In any case, that’s a little bit material. But the the plans that we followed always existed in the business before I got there. But with some modifications, we you know, we have adopt them with some modifications, and then we’d execute.

[00:58:55.82] spk_1:
But you think the plans were already there?

[00:58:57.82] spk_0:
Sure. The ideas were already there. The idea of the middle

[00:59:00.49] spk_1:
step middle step wasn’t getting done. The execution

[01:00:23.51] spk_0:
first company I went to had a product that they were going to introduce that they’ve been talking about for five years. We introduced it in 13 months. I sat in the music, we had to introduce it. We had we had a new market we wanted to enter, and they they just went round and round and round on whether it was the right market to enter. You can always find a reason not to do something. It’s a lot easier to find reasons not to do something than it is to find reasons to. There’s almost this, Uh, there’s almost this mindset like, Well, we got to find something that no one in the industry has ever thought of. Well, that’s Yeah, good luck with that. That this never happens, right? No, you got to execute better than other company. So, you know, we had this market we wanted to enter, and everybody was disproving why we could enter it. And at some point I just said, No, I think we can do it. Let’s try it and we went after it. And that company is thriving in that market today. Alright, the last software company that I ran. Same thing. There’s a new market. We went after it. We’re leading in it right now, right? Um, but it was an idea that had been around forever. There was another market to where they actually convinced themselves there was no way to make any money in it. And we will. It’s that it’s

[01:00:38.01] spk_1:
avoiding that scarcity mentality and that, you know, it’s a focus on how we can, instead of why we can’t because it is always easier, much, much easier to find reasons why you can’t do something to evaluating and execute on a plan to do something. So I always say, Let’s look at how we can instead of why we can’t

[01:01:23.11] spk_0:
that that market that’s an interesting one, that market. I won’t tell you to many of the details because it’s active right now. But it’s about half of their new business right now. Okay? And and I had to move 30% of the engineering resources in that company to focus on that new market, and they were already booked, you know, they would have told you they’re booked 150% alright. So and did some things fall off the table and the status quo? You bet they did. We lived with it. We found ways around it, right? I mean, that’s But that’s the point where you see as the leader, I can’t walk away and say Figure it

[01:01:23.90] spk_1:
out. Well, that’s the belief in the plan.

[01:02:06.20] spk_0:
I’ve got to be part of the team that figures it out, right? Yes. I’m still the leader. I’m not. I’m not coming up with the solutions, but I’m asking the questions. Right. What can we do? How can we do? Tell me what we could, you know. Okay. Well, I moved. Oh, I moved 35 people over there, and you need one of them back, or you can’t get this done. So what you’re telling me? Yeah. Move them this afternoon. You know, I moved 35. Guess where I got that number? Yeah. You know, out of the air. Right. But but in some companies, that question never get out. Joe moved. Joe moved them. Can’t move them back. Okay.

[01:03:34.60] spk_1:
All right, Joe. Thank you, Joe. Pager. A reminder that Joe pager is available to consult with your non profit on everything we talked about. Strategic execution change management, leadership, fraternity, pledge training. You can reach him on LinkedIn. Remember, it’s P A J E r. Joe. Thank you very much. Good to have this conversation. You shared some excellent ideas. Appreciate your wisdom. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. Next week, corporate funding. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turning to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by Scott Steiner. Thank you for that information. Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Mm hmm. Mhm. Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for June 23, 2017: Don’t Be The Founder From Hell & Your DR Plan

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Jim Nowak: Don’t Be The Founder From Hell

Jim Nowak heads fundraising for the dZi Foundation, which he founded. How did he and the Foundation manage his transition from executive director to chief fundraiser? He talks candidly about the board, job descriptions, ego and more. (We talked at Opportunity Collaboration 2015 & this originally aired 10/30/15.)

 

 

Dar Veverka: Your DR Plan

Disaster recovery: Ignore it at your own peril. What belongs in your DR plan? Dar Veverka is vice president of technology for LIFT. (This originally aired 5/1/15 and is from the 2015 Nonprofit Technology Conference.)

 

 


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Dahna hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the idler ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of black ophelia if you tried to sugar coat the idea that you missed today’s show, don’t be the founder from hell, jim no ac heads fund-raising for the d c i foundation, which he founded. How did he and the foundation manage his transition from executive director to chief fundraiser? He talks candidly about the board, job descriptions, ego and more. We talked that opportunity collaboration twenty fifteen miss originally aired october thirtieth, twenty fifteen and your d our plan disaster recovery ignore it at your own peril. What belongs in your d our plan dahna geever ca is vice president of technology for lift. This originally aired on may first, twenty fifteen and is from the twenty fifteen non-profit technology conference on tony’s take two the charleston principles we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we be e spelling dot com here is gym no ac with don’t be the founder from hell. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of opportunity collaboration twenty fifteen were on the beach in x top of mexico. My guest is jim no ac. He is president and co founder of zi foundation. They’re at dc i that’s deltas delta zulu, india from my air force days dot org’s dc i dot org’s and we’re talking about avoiding being the founder from hell. Jim is not that jim. Welcome. Thanks, tony for having me on the show. Appreciate it. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we got together rubs what? Two days ago, right? I think we’re connected. And, um all right, you’re not the founder from hell, and we are going. We’re gonna take this way only have one side of the story, so i don’t have justin you because one of your board to collaborate to corroborate your your side. But you’re doing a session here. Yeah, i presume you’ve been. You’ve been vetted. Yeah, i’ve done done the session for the six years i’ve been coming. Job pretending collaboration. I keep offering. You know i don’t need to do the session, but it seems as i always say nobody ends up in that session by mistake, you know, people and it’s been interesting people, aaron really tough situations, very emotional, you know, that the social sector is a tough space to be in, and people are very passionate and it can be really charged, but we do our best to try to give people some tools, maybe walk through these these these difficult situations, all right? And in the six years i’ve been doing, you’ve never been challenged by anyone who said, no, that guy is the ceo. That guy he’s the founder from hell, no never had that challenge, but having no, but there, you know, again, i would say i only have one perspective to bring to it there are people that have different perspectives and say that would never work that are absolutely, and i’ve had some of them as guests, but but we’re getting the founders perspective, which i haven’t had before. Yeah, let’s, start with your history with the organization. I’m the cofounder, and now i sit is president we started are working. Paul. Seventeen years ago, it was around an expedition that had been climbing in the fall for a number of years and small expedition to climb. Memoria twenty three thousand four hundred foot what’s. The name of it from maury fremery three miles to the west of everest, on the nepal tibet border. Doing a new route has never been climbed. I was on there and eighty nine now back in ninety eight and in ninety eight found out about small girls home that was financially failing. Raised money in my local community to help bail this girl’s home out. That was the genesis of our work. Where’s. Your community. Where were you living then? I was living the vail, colorado, that and shortly after that moved to where were based now in ridgeway, colorado, southwest corner of colorado. Down by tell you right now. Okay. And how long have you not been the executive director? I was executive director for the first thirteen years. Okay? And then we started into a process of identifying we wanted to shift from there and bring someone in with better financial skills than than myself. But and it was early, early on, it was identified by my board that they want me to say connected to the organization i carried the history carried a lot of the donors carried those relationships on. They want me to become the development director. Okay, i’m going to get to the details of how that all played out. That’s that’s, critical part. But so it was for you, it’s been four years now since you were executive director. Is that right? Correct. Okay. And there is a new executive director. Hired and same person have been in the position for years. Yeah, we feel like we we did a really thorough an extensive search. Get a job and he’s still on the job saying individual okay. Okay, so, he’s uh, he’s executive director. Um correct, mark. Mark. And you won’t get a shot at mark. Yeah. Mark rikers, mark rikers. And you’re the president. Correct. Okay. Let’s, um, let’s start with the board’s role in this what i think is really interesting eyes that it was the board recommendation that you stay it wasn’t you as founder dictating. I want to stay with this organization. The impetus for having you remain came from the board. And also the impetus toe hyre an executive director came from the board, so it was to phase it was like we need to. And as my board affectionately refers to jim, if you get hit by a bus, this organization could potentially go down in flames. So the impetus came from some very skilled and wise board members that had experience in the nonprofit world. Had experiences change management leaders. We’re just very savvy and saying let’s, make our organization more sustainable and increase our bench bench strength. There had to be a lot of trust, a cross, you and the board, i mean, you had to believe that the board actually wanted you two remain and in the capacity that you ultimately became president and which is chief fundraiser for right, you have put a lot of faith in you’re in your board members telling you that believing what they were telling you. Yeah, and this is a really an emotional space for founder’s teo walk into because you could certainly believed that you were in a situation where you were being replaced, you and i that certainly took ah, was it took a while for me? Because that was my first reaction. I don’t think it was an unusual one. Hyre this changing roles and organizations is really tough work, i think it’s exceptionally tough if you’re the founder, if you were the very first person working on your own, you know, from monstrous hours and generating the organization, but pardon parcel of that is that i always had the belief that eventually, you know, in organizations everyone leaves eventually, and i always had in the back of my mind that the most important thing was that this organization lived on beyond me. And this was certainly a major stepping stone to that. What about the, uh, the composition of the board you mentioned? You had some change management people on your board talk about the importance of having the right skill set on your board. Help this transition? Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s, kind of like who’s. Do you have the right people on the bus? You know, and early on in our evolution, you know, i was way had a lot of people that knew a lot about paul, and that was great. But they were all foreigners, you know? And they had great skill, great passion and that but the evolution has been to bring in people with sound non-profit experience people who were changed management leaders that basically had their own consulting firms that actually helped corporal eaters and non-profit lee just walk through these really challenging transitions in the evolution of the nor is a t had that expertise. Oh, yeah, we have that three people that change management expertise. Yeah, that was that was really hughes. And then more than anything, maybe was that i had specifically two individuals that i trust implicitly, that they actually have my back. And that that boardmember board members that this was, you know, they had long non-profit experience, but that this was the way the organization could go and that i was not being, you know, put out to pasture and that that that this would be a very fascinating time for me to be able to find out what i really wanted to do instead of having to do everything you also had to trust that the board has the best interests of z in mind that and that their vision is at least, you know, parallel to yours. I mean, it may not be identical, but they yeah, they’ve got z in their in their hearts and and that that really, you know, one of the two individuals i trusted implicitly had been there at the first board meeting in my kitchen table, you know? And now we’re actually we have our board meetings at his board table on the fourteenth floor in denver office, you know? So i mean, that’s been a long evolution, but that had been fourteen years of that relationship, so yeah, i really knew that they had my had my back, a lot of trust ways, but not without a lot of emotion. And a lot of baggage, i’m sure is a tough, you know, you know, talk about the emotional, you know, you just just feel, is this the where am i actually going? What was actually going to happen to the organization, you know, what’s gonna happen to me because i really impassioned about this work and want to stay in this space, you know? So yeah, a lot, a lot of challenges and a lot of ups and downs, and i would say that that period tow walk through that and feel confident it took a couple months and they really took a couple months, and we laid out a very deliberate plan on the evolution of this after about a month into it. So i was starting to get on board a month of emotion. Yeah, the emotion continued, but then it started become irrational process. Yeah, because it started to develop and expand into what could be and i didn’t see that initially. Oi! All i saw was what what? What i thought was being replaced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Initially that’s it. Yeah, yeah. All right. But you obviously overcame that. Yeah. Oh, and to add to that in this process and, you know, one thing that was really fascinating is that our entire board bought into the concept that as we moved into a new executive director, that the executive committee and myself would be the five people that would decide, and it would be unanimous on who we decide if we didn’t find them knives like your daddy way did not find that person, we would scrap it for six months and then come back okay, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way dahna we’re going to get to the search. I spent more time on the board. You mentioned you had a lot of longevity on the board. Not not just the one. The one guy who started your kitchen table and now you’re in his fifteenth floor. Yeah, but you you yeah, you had other board members with long longevity. They understand the organization. They they have the best interests of z in their hearts to jury. I mean in our by-laws boardmember sze sit for three years, they have to be voted back on for another three years. They could walk away from the organization or immediately go to an advisory board that gets all the information doesn’t vote. After a year, they could be voted back on the board, but wave have everything we’ve had people that stayed a long time. We’ve had people that cycled and cycled out. I think that’s a really healthy for the cycle more than anything. New ideas, new energy, new vision. You know, new new things. Yeah. Onda connection disease work. Yeah, and and that that solid underpinning has always been that people have been there to anchorage, not just myself. Let’s, talk about the the search, the search process. You said it was the executive committee of the board for people and you. And did it have to be? You had to be unanimous. Vote on who the successor would be. Okay. He obviously had a lot of you have to be a lot of trust in that process. Yeah, from the rest of the board members. So well. And you too, you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All five of you had to. Well, actually, the whole board had trust the process. Yeah, they had delegated the vote to the executive committee and you, but the whole board had trust this process. Yeah, they really did. And so there were some mechanisms that engaged staff engaged other board members, whether it was an opportunity for the three final candidates to be in our office and ridgeway and for people to come there and meet them and to sit in on a conference call with all the board members anyone that wanted to patch in, we actually had the three final candidates work with our financial officer for an hour and at ask questions around that they were in a closed room also with our the paul country director who was in country at that time. So they they all spent time with them. So it was really a deal where everyone had input. But there were five the executive committee and myself that were decided. Maybe a little detail. But i’m interested. What was the mechanism for staff to give feedback to the five people who are going to do the vote? It was basically threw the board chair. So they say the staff whether it was the financial officer in the whole country. Director they gave that him. Put directly back to the board chair on the board chair. Disseminated that to this election. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, was there a outside search consultant? No. No, we all did. With is completely just posted it publicly. Well, we posted it in all sorts of spaces, you know, on you threw the peace corps on on. Were located in a remote area in western colorado. So speak on the western slope. So we had lots of people in the denver area. Certainly. Um what we ended up through our network’s way ended up with sixty for paper applications. Now on dh. So that was what we started to wed our way through and pretty short. Or there were a third that it was really crystal clear they were, yeah, yeah, way too much of a stretch, and people asking to remove work remotely in new york for this job. So am i, and that was deal that we want people in the office, you know, you know, face-to-face on dh, so that was a real process, and and once we cold that list, then all of the board members were assigned. The executive committee search committee were assigned a certain amount of people to deal with, to make phone calls, too. There was a list of questions to be asked, and then that information was brought back to the search committee, and we started to, just with a little bit, whittle it down. Job the job descriptions, you’ve identified that as being critical, setting boundaries abound. What? What? You’re what you’re gonna be doing as president and not doing with the exec director is going to be doing let’s. Let’s flush that out job description. Yeah, that was that was really critical, you know, so to speak. What? You know, what was mark’s role? What was my role in what was our rule? You know, and how are we gonna work? Basically in the same office. And how is that going to make this kind of lateral move to be in charge of of all development, really focusing and digging into that, which is something i certainly had done, but i was doing a lot of different things, too. So that was just really critical and also having our executive committee really get into the weeds on that. And then, you know, it’s all about really owning that once it won once things transition about assuring mark who became executive director, but during the process, maybe at the point where he was offered the job or at some point he had to be reassured that this was not going to be a founder. Syndrome situation that he was stepping into. Yeah, what was that like? How did you well, we did that with all of our three final buy-in indefinite detail. And that was something that we put forth. This is how this out was, is how it’s changing. Okay? And, um, you know, i mean, this is probably a good time and, uh, it’s about somebody’s ego and, you know, what’s the what’s, the main driver, is it about you is about control, is it about not allowing the organization to grow past you and evolved past you? Or you’re going to keep a stranglehold on it on dh make things miserable for not only marked, but everybody else in the organization, so i want to double it more detail on how those three candidates got god assured that this was not going to be a disaster situation they’d be walking into mean, it had to be more than just the written job descriptions. Yeah. You know, i think one of the things that was really interesting is we weren’t, you know, quite often in this the executive director search or changes organization. What happens is it’s because the, you know, the staff’s upset programs are not being delivered properly, and financially, you’re you’re in dire straits. I mean, it was a kind of that’s, a standard, why you’re changing. We actually came from a really strong position, and we felt it was inappropriate time to make the shift financially. We were in good shape. Um, staff was quite happy with what they were doing, and programs were certainly evolving at that time. So, you know, nothing was perfect, but we certainly were not in the crisis mode. That’s quite often, what happened, so we were on the front end of this, but we were again realizing the vulnerability of of me is found, yeah. And they also had to be assured that you personally wood abide by the job description. Yeah, on everything that’s being said. I mean, you know, this is all in writing, and it all sounds good, but, you know, i was the new executive director could walk in and, you know, this guy jim is just blowing everything out of the water that we talked about, and now i’m in a bad spot. Yeah, yeah, yeah latto latto i had to trust you. Yeah, and that it’s a pretty standard situation. Yeah, you know, it’s pretty standard that it be negative. Yeah, is that demanded? And quite often, i do hear that people cycle through that know that first executive director didn’t work out. Now we’re into our second one, you know, we were fortunate and maybe i don’t know why, but i guess mark and the two other candidates believe me, you know, i mean, i really think it comes down to you know that and reassurance from the executive committee, no more trust, yeah was allowed to rest there’s a lot of stress. Yeah, we’re taking a big step here. Like i said, the paper documents are fine. But in the end, they could be end up being meaningless. It comes down to a human connection and right and trust. Yeah. Yeah, ego. You mentioned it before. So let’s, explore that it’s mostly your ego that you had keep in check for the for the good of z. Yeah, i think so. I mean, i’m no, no expert trust me, but i guess at the core of this is i’ve always held a belief of doing your best to hyre smart people than yourself on that doesn’t intimidate me. It makes us a stronger organization. So that’s a core belief of mine. Mine. Um, i why would i not try to bring the best and the brightest board members to the board, the best and brightest staff to the board? Um, that’s. Just a core belief of mind that that’s what’s going to make a sustainable organization, you know, that’s where the oil starts for me. All right, you know, and, um, hyre, you know, again, that core belief that my biggest responsibilities, this organization, lives on beyond me. Yeah. It’s bigger than you. It is much bigger than me. And then you, you know, from one person operation tow for people in colorado in twenty five in the fall. And, you know, fourteen girls is where we started serving over. Thirty thousand people now it’s way beyond me. I play an inter call roll i have in trickle power because i am the founder, but i’m on ly a piece of the puzzle and that’s that’s a healthy place for nor ization obviously there was a transition period where you had a share, a lot of corporate knowledge, with mark as the new executive director. Absolutely. You know, one of the things that was interesting way we’re in an office situation where we had two basic office rooms, and initially mark and i were going to work in the same room, and i just was, like, that’s not gonna work. We took the office next door. We’re connected by a door, but we can be close and have our own private space that i didn’t want him to feel that i was looking over his shoulder. Yeah, ever, you know, but there was institutional knowledge, you know, of our organization and what we done and our relationships and our funding and our partners and how we did things and where we worked and all that stuff that had to be transferred over and that takes time. That’s just a constant process of answering those questions mark was incredibly quick study, but i mean, i can’t imagine i’m thinking back out for years now, but, you know, he was really getting it after four months, six months a year, you know, it takes time and it’s, you know, and transferring those relationships, introducing him to those relationships is key and again, taking that letter will move away from that, you know, so that’s, what an and in a way, we also identified that it was an opportunity for me to become maur engaged in the board on dh i now sit on the board, i had never sat on the board. First of all, no, there was not in exhibition zoho ous founder, no, no one i was fonder, i said as the executive director, but i did not sit on the board and you don’t have a vote now. I didn’t have a vote that i don’t have a way out or not right now you’re on the board, but you don’t have a vote, correct. So i’m basically straddled the board on the kind of clutch between the staff from the boy. Why that decision to not have a vote i already have enough power is what the board felt, and i think that that’s the accurate, that definitely was another risk situation for me where i was like, wow, i’m losing control. Yeah, but founders have immense historical knowledge, respond relationships, they have immense power with organizations. And although that did feel uncomfortable, it was the right decision, you know, and quite a lot, itjust wass, you know, a lot of this feels like it has to be the right people. I mean, here you’re you’re you’re saying, you know, you struggled with not getting a vote being on the board, but not having a vote, but in order for this to work and for the board to be comfortable, you had teo swallow that you had to accept that and, you know, another person might not have been able to yeah, a lot of this, yeah, trust and and the personalities that people have to be right now, if it’s not the right people, then you’re not gonna have the trust and and we’re gonna end up with what i’ve had guests on the show say that which is when the founder leaves the leadership role here. She has got a several ties. Yeah, that’s really the default, right? But it sounds like if you arrive the right personalities, you don’t have to you don’t. Except the default. Well, i think there’s a couple things that play into that one is most times when people are shifting executive directors, it is a crisis situation, and maybe the management wasn’t very strong for so that’s that’s a pretty standard situation. I mean, for us, we were coming from ah, solid footing and the thing that was the constant phrase that we we used in our search was we need to find somebody with correct emotional intelligence to come in and not gutsy, but to build on pond what we’ve already created. And so that was it was really the baseline kind of tag line that way worked off the position as president created opportunities for you that you didn’t have as dahna in the leadership relies founder yeah, let’s talk a little about that because i think it was important for you to recognize that there was opportunity for you and the board was making that clear in the new president role. Yeah, and there i think the opportunity around it was too deep in my relationship with board members. And as i say, be that clutch between what’s happening in our work on the paul what’s happening with staff and that but a zai moved into the development roll exclusively. Really? What happened is at a time. I mean, i had time to follow some more creative, creative things i mentioned there was a knopper to nitti where we were invited from a little town that’s less than a thousand people in ridgeway, colorado, to create enter an event in italy and in france, where there’s a charity cycling about where it’s it’s basically a fancy camp for cyclists that i mean, they have massages and right insane amounts. That was three days of riding with over twenty five thousand feet of climbing racing. And so basically, we were able to bring in individuals who had financial capacity to commit to raising a significant amount of money for the foundation. Through this, this leverage point through their friends, and you would not have been able to pursue this no way and found a rolling no on and much band with way too much band with and then what happened out there that is we actually then deepened our relationships in london in the uk and we were a register as a charity in the uk. So now there’s the zi foundation uk and we have a board of trustees over there and they basically carried the work of the zi foundation in the uk raise funds for the paul that money flows through the u s and then in the fall so that basically become a whole new revenue stream that we never had nor would they have had anywhere near the bandwidth to take something like that on so it’s all those opportunities you know and looking around the corner what’s next and being very creative about it and that’s been very, very rewarding for me simple question in in the wrap up why the title president instead of director of development or institutional advancement? I think the board really wanted to honor my legacy with the organization, you know? And instead of just director of della development, they just wanted to honor my title is cofounder present your morning thank you for sharing means really some personal stuff talking about trust and ego and you know, being the right personality, so i want to thank you very much for for sharing. Yeah, thanks. I’m happy to share with anybody. It’s it’s, i think one of the things that happens is in these non-profits u u you changed from being student sometimes teacher, and i’ve been able to share this with a lot of people. It’s tough work at that level and i’m happy to share with anyone. So thank you for having me on pleasure you’ll find him at xero foundation dot org’s, it’s dc i foundation dot org’s tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage at the opportunity collaboration twenty fifteen on the beach i know you hear the waves breaking in its top of mexico. Thanks so much for being with us. Your d our plan with dar viv arika coming up first. Pursuant they’re content paper. They want you to know about its breakthrough fund-raising like all their content it’s free and this one is going to train you on break through thinking where you will learn how to solve the challenges facing your office, how to set a breakthrough outcome and what that means and how to create a culture of breakthrough thinking. In your office breakthrough, you can do it. There’s good ideas in here. The paper is breakthrough fund-raising and you get it at pursuing dot com click resource is and then click content papers. We’ll be spelling spelling bees that raise money. It’s a fun night out at a local place and it’s not your seventh grade spelling bee. You need to raise more money. I know you do. You can do it. We be e spelling dot com. We’ll help you. We’ll be spelling now. Time for tony’s take two the charleston principles this is something that relates to charity registration, which talked about love three weeks ago or so roughly three, four weeks ago was the video on that charity registration morass. Now i’ve got one on the charleston principles. They were created in charleston, south carolina, and they have very good suggestions for states it za recommended body of laws for states to adopt around charity registration to try to standardize things. Trouble is ah, lots of states haven’t adopted them. It’s not too clear where they’re adopted. Eso it’s not really all that standardized, but they’re good ideas and they are in some states the charleston principles. Check out the video at tony martignetti dot com it will help you with charity registration. And as always, i can if can you help with that, too? That is tony’s take two here’s darby barca with your disaster recovery plan welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc twenty fifteen the non-profit technology conference were in day two. We’re in austin, texas, at the convention center and my guest is dar vivir ca she’s vice president of technology for lift a lefty, and her workshop topic is avoiding disaster. A practical guide for backup systems and disaster recovery planning you’re welcome. Thank you very much. Good to be here. It’s! A pleasure to have you ah, this day two we’re highlighting one swag item at and ntc her for interview. And, uh, i have a double chip biscotti from a sputnik moment. The hashtag is hashtag is sputnik smiles and i’m told that the glasses go with the biscotti so this is essential. This is this interview’s swag moment. Thank you very much. Sputnik smiles and it goes into the goes into the swag collection. There it is. Okay, door. Um we need to know some. Ah little basic turn. Well, you know what, before we even get into why is disaster recovery and the related and included back-up so i don’t know if it’s just for gotten ignored, not done. Well, what inspired the session is a organization i used to work for. We were required by auditors to do a disaster recovery plans. So when it came time for the annual audit, i got out the current disaster recovery plan. It went all right, i’m going to go ahead and update this, and when i discovered, when i read the plan was there were servers that were eight years gone for last eight years server and reading the planet was very clear that what the previous person had done was simply change the date and update the plan for auditors. And as i thought about it and talk to other people, i found that that actually happens a lot people. It’s, d r is sort of that thing they don’t have time for because no one ever thinks it’ll happen to them, so you push it off, you push it off, and you either just download the template, you know, a template off the internet. And you slap a date on it and basically fill it out just for the auditors. But a lot of organizations never actually think through their disaster recovery, they don’t get into the details, they don’t worry about it, and then when a disaster actually happens to them, they’re sort of stuck. You don’t have a plan that i don’t have a functioning christian, and they’ve never tried it out. So that was what inspired the session, and as we dug into it, we we tried to give the thirty thousand foot view because disaster it cover, you know, there’s an entire industry, the deals with technology, disaster recovery. You can spend days on this topic, and obviously we didn’t have days we had a ninety minute session, so we tried to give the thirty thousand foot view of the practical items you need to pay attention to if you’re not confident in your organisation’s d our plan, if you i don’t have a d our plan or if you do and you really don’t, you know, you think it really needs an overhaul that sort of the top ten of items of what you should really be looking at. When you’re dealing with disaster recovering backups and we tried to give some several practical examples myself and the other speaker and andrew, who could not make it this morning of disasters we’ve had to deal with as well as other well known ones. Yeah, okay, do we need some basic language? Wait, get into the d r disaster recovery topic short jr is one of them disaster recovers, often referred to his d r it’s often spoken about in terms of business continuity or bc, which is sort of the larger plan for the entire organisation. Should’ve disaster strike there’s you know, there’s very d are specific things such as our poet recovery point objective that we could talk about your rto, which is recovery time objective there’s very specific language like that for disasters. It’s usually just referred to d ours. So whenever we say d arts disaster recovery okay, we’ll see if we get into those eyes and i could explain this week. Okay, um, all right, so clearly we should have a disaster recovery written just recovery plan. Even if we’re an organization that small enough that doesn’t have an annual audit, we still should have. Something in place? Yes. Okay. What belongs in our day? Our plan top ten things. You need a contact list for your team. So if you have a top ten of the d r i do of what should your plan d our plan? You know, it could be anything from a five page outline that just covers the basics. And in in our sessions slides, which i’ve posted in the ntc library gives it some good resource is for doing a d our plan or it could be a, you know, a huge hundred page document. It covers absolutely every aspect of business continuity or something in between. It’s going very by organization. And the reality is, if you’re a small organisation with a small team, you might only be able to do the five page outline. But that’s better than nothing. That’s better than no d our plan or a d r plan that realistically hasn’t been updated in the last ten years. But i would say, you know, the top ten you really should have in your day. Our plan is number one. A contact list for your team members. You know what is the contact for? Your team, folks, your business continuity folks, if you normally would get that out of your email and you’re in a disastrous situation, you know you can’t get to your email or, you know, like we’re ever going through. And i want listeners to know that she’s doing this without notes, i it seems very confident that she’s got the and hopefully i remember altum in-kind get seven out of seven or eight of ten will be ecstatic, but so continue. Oh, but i want to say, yeah, as we’re going through, consider two organizations that may not have someone devoted to it correctly. This is our listeners are small and midsize non-profits right? They very, very well just all be outsourced, or it falls on the executive director’s desk. Excellent point. Would you cover that in the session? So t finish at the top ten contactless three team members contact list for your vendors, a call tree and some sort of communications. How do you tell your organization in your members that you’ve had a disaster? Either your servers have gone down your parts of burst and your communications air underwater. How do you do that? What is your? Network look like so. Network diagram process. Outline how you’re actually going to do your disaster recovery. A timeline? How long do you expect these activities to take before you, khun b live again? A list of systems and applications that you’re going to recover. If you’re a large enough or gore, you can afford a hot site was called a hot or warm site where you can immediately switch over two other equipment. You know, information about that. You’d need that to start your recovery. And then also information about your backups. You know, who’s got your back ups? What system are you using? How do you, you know? Get those back. So those air sort of like the top ten things or d our plan should have alright, let’s dive into the the process. Okay? A bit is that intrigues me, bond. Hopefully listeners? I think so. I think i have a fare beat on what’s. Interesting. I hope i do. Um, yeah. What? How do we start to think about what our dear process should be? But first, i have to think about what all could be a disaster for your organization. A lot of people think. About things you know, earthquakes, hurricane, sandy, hurricane katrina, but it could also be water pipes bursting in your building. That is one of the most common thing if your server is not properly protected. Which a lot of a lot of stuck in closets ah, dripping pipe water. We call those water events and that seems to be the most common thing departments encounter is leaking pipes in the building or some sort of a flooding situation, but it could also be an elektronik disaster. Such, i’ve worked at an organization that underwent what’s called a ddos attack, which is a distributed denial of service. It took out our entire web presence because malicious hacker hacker went after that’s where there’s millions of right network and they just flood your network seconds you’re overloaded and yeah, and that’s a disaster situation. So one why would they attack like that? Why wasn’t non-profit attack malicious? The cp dot organ are attacked out with avon marchenese travon martin decision. Folks attacked our our petition site way. We were able to get it back online, but for a couple of hours yeah, we were off line and that could be considered a disaster situation for sure. Yeah? How do you help us think through what potential disasters are not even identify them all i think about what could affect your or what you wear, you vulnerable? Some of the things we talked about in the session where? Think about how would you get back online if the’s, various things happened to you are your are your services sort of in the cloud? Do you have servers on site and start there when thinking about your process is what would you have to recover if these various scenarios affected you or with these various scenarios? Scenarios affect you. If your website is completely outsourced to a vendor that has de dos protection. Okay, that’s not a scenario you have to worry about so kind of analyze it and every organs going to be different. You know, if you live on the west coast, you’re probably concerned more about earthquakes than other regions. So it’s it’s going to vary for each organization, what sort of disaster you’re going to be worried about? And then you start getting down into the practical nuts and bolts in terms of who are your disaster recovery people, who’s. Your team, if you’re really small lorry, that might just be you or as you mentioned before, if you’re using outsourced, manage service provider and your vendors responsible for that, make sure your vendor has a d our plan for you? Ah lot of folks just assume your vendors taking care of that, but when it comes right down to it, do they actually have d our experience? Can they recover your items? Actually sit down and have that conversation? Because so many of the small org’s, as you pointed out, do use outsourced thes days? There’s yeah, there’s a lot of manage service providers that specialize in non-profit, but you need to have that conversation. Don’t wait till you’re under a disaster scenario to discover that groups they don’t actually have that experience have that conversation ahead of time. What else belongs in our process? Outlined in your process that outline? If you’ve got a another site, either a cold, a warmer, hot site or if your stuff is based in the cloud, where would you recover to? The hot side is some place you go to drink cold water or hot? Sure, a cold site would be where? You’ve got another location let’s say you have a dozen servers at your location and in the case of your building, being inaccessible or underwater, a cold site would be where you’ve got another location you could go to, but you don’t really have any equipment stage there, but it is another location you can begin operations out if that’s a cold sight there’s nothing ready to go, but you’ve got a sight a warm site would be where you sort of have a skeletal equipment there it’s far less capacity than you’re currently at, but you’ve got something there it’s not live, but you’ve got stuff ready to go that you can restore to and get going. And a hot site is where you can flip over immediately. Your live replicating to somewhere else, it’s ready to go? It might not be full capacity, so it might not have, you know, full blown data line size that you’re used to might not have your full range of service, but it is live and you could switch over near instantaneously. That’s a hot site, ok, eso you’d want that in your process and you’re going to want to think about what are you restoring and that’s, where we get into the backups? What comes first and that’s, where you start getting into terms such as recovery point objective and recovery time objective those air to very common d our terms recovery time is how far back are you recovering too? And what does that mean for each system? So if it’s your donorsearch system that’s probably fairly critical, you want a recent restore of that? If it’s a system that doesn’t change very much, maybe a week ago restores okay for that sorry that’s recovery point objective recovery time objective is how long does it take you to get back online after a disaster? You know, ifyou’ve got to download your data from an external source. Has anyone thought about how long that’s going to take you to get the data back? Is it going to take you fifteen hours or three days? So it’s in a lot of folks don’t think about that ahead of time, they just go oh, you know, we’ll we’ll pull it back down if we have a disaster, but they don’t think about instead of their nice normal data communications, they’re going to be on a tiny d s l line trying to pull down one hundred fifty gigs of information and it’s going to take a week to get it back down. I have to say you’re very good about explaining terms and thank you, proper radio. We have jargon jail? Yes, we try not to neo-sage transcend you haven’t transgressed cause your immediate about explaining exactly what recovery point river and recovery time objectives are. It could be very confusing. You know, if you don’t understand the terms in tech, you can be confusing what folks are talking about, and that was one of the the focus is of our station session is making it less confusing and being very practical, practical about what you can or cannot do, and if folks go and look at our slides, they’ll see on several of the items we did a good better best, and we tried to talk about that all throughout the session because we realized again for a small ork or, you know, even a large order that just doesn’t have the resources to devote to it. You might not be able to do best practice, but you could at least try. A good practice that would be better than nothing. And then so we do a good, better best for each. Each type of thing, like what does a good d our plan look like versus the best day our plan, and at least try and get to that. Good, because at least you’ll have something. And it could be a continuum where you try and improve it along the way. But you’ve got to start somewhere it’s. Better than just ignoring it, which is what happens at a lot of places. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guest directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Duitz i’m chuck longfield of blackbaud. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Do we need thio prioritize what’s mission critical and yes, we can work with out for a time. Yes, how do we determine that? Definitely we talk about that in terms of its not just a knight each decision either because we may think that the emails the most critical thing out there, but development may see the donor system as the most critical out there program might think that the case management system is the most critical out there, so you finance wants their account, they want their accounting system up. Obviously you’ve got to have an order in which you bring these things up. You’re probably not gonna have enough staff for bandwith or, you know, equipment to bring everything back online, so there needs to be and hopefully your executive team would be involved in deciding for the organization what is most critical in what order are you going to bring those things up? And that needs to be part of your d r plan? Because otherwise, if you’re in a disaster scenario, you’re not going to know where to start and there’s going to be a lot of disagreement of who starts where so you guys need to decide on the order, okay, we solve a few minutes left, but what more can we say about d r and related? Back-up that’s not going to wait till i’m back up because i think we could do a little bit in terms of d r i n st key points on backups are check them because a lot of time, yes, monthly or quarterly, at least is anyone looking at your back-up back-up work-life one of the scenarios that we talked about that actually happened to my co speaker, andrew, was that their server room flooded and it hit their razor’s edge server, which is their entire c, m, s, c r, e, m and donorsearch system, and they thought it was backing up, but no one had actually check the backups in the last two months, and it was on, and it was not s o in terms of back-up just typical, you know, pay attention to the maintenance. What do you backing up? Has anyone checked it? And again, if you’re using a manage service provider, make sure if they’re responsible for for looking at your backups of managing them, make sure they’re doing that. You know, double check and make sure that they understand that your backups are critical and they can’t just ignore the alerts about your backups. You know, you don’t want to be in the unpleasant situation of three of our servers just got flooded. We need the data and discover nobody was backing it up. It ain’t exactly okay, all right, anything else, you wanna leave people about back-up before we go to the broader diar? No, i think that’s good for those were the highlights for it. All right, so back to the disaster recovery. What more can we say about that? There are going to be a lot of watches if you’re in a large d our situation. And so one of things we stress is one getting down into the details of your d. Our plan. Before disaster hits. You see, if you’ve never thought about how you’re actually going to do the restores air, actually, how you’re going to be rebuild those servers. You need two ahead of time. A lot of folks never practiced have a fire drill. I hate fire drill, but and you don’t have a live fire drills in this case, it might be a live fire drill. You don’t want to have that, so you should make some effort to practice, even if it’s just something small, you know, trying to restore one server. I mentioned in this session that i was put in a situation years ago at johns hopkins university, where we were required to have verification of live tr practice, so i was put in a room that had a table, a telephone, a server, and we were carrying two laptops and we couldn’t come out of the room, and so we had completely restored our domain. We had a set of backups on the thumb drive and added the second laptop to that domain improve that we had restored the domain, and an independent person that was not connected to our department was monitoring to make sure we had done it, and we had to prove it, and that was an eye opening experience is as experienced as i was doing that i’d never done it live, and it took me three tries to do it so that’s, right? Encourage folks to really try and practice this stuff ahead of time and get down into the you know, the weeds on their on their d our plan and, uh and also to think about it, you weren’t fired because wayne johnson no, no, no, i actually like too much, john soft. No, we we did complete it within the time frame, but we were a little startled when we discovered that we thought we knew how to do it first time out, and we kept making little mistakes. There were two of us and they’re doing it, and we were surprised ourselves that we thought, oh, of course we know this. This is not a problem, but no, we were making little mistakes because we didn’t have the documentation down. A specific is it needed to be. And so that was a very eye opening experience. There’s a couple of their d r gotchas we talked about, which is crossed. People don’t think about the cost ahead of time. How much is going to cost to get you that data back in the instance of my co presenter who had the damaged drives, they weren’t expecting a near ten thousand dollars cost to recover those drives, but that’s what happened when they didn’t have the backups? They had to take those hard drives to a data recovery place, and the price tag was nearly ten thousand dollars. Dealing with insurance is another big one that people don’t think about having to account for all of the equipment that was lost, and dealing with that insurance morass often gets dumped on the auntie department in a small organization. There’s not, you know, a legal department that’s going to deal with that it’s going to be you so to, you know, kind of talk to your insurance provider ahead of time and see what all you have to deal with in a disaster situation. So you don’t get an unpleasant surprise if you’re ever in one a cz well on the insurance topic, just are you covered? Exactly what you think is your equipment covered? And what do you have to do with that? In terms of accounting for it? If you suffer a disaster, you know the gooch is we get so a couple of minutes, if if oh for days. About consciously trying to think about somebody we don’t hold back on non-profit video uh, i think some of the other ones that we covered in their thick wit mint again to the cost, how much is it going to cost you? Two gets new equipment and did you account for that when you were doing your d our plan and a time to recover? A lot of folks don’t understand how long it may take them to do a recovery and also deciding what is important and what is not important, not just in terms of what should be restored in what order, but in terms of practical things, do you really need to restore your domain? Er, or could you just start over from scratch if your domain only contains maybe fifty accounts and doesn’t have any associated servers faster for you to just start over and just recreate the domain immediately? Especially if a lot of your emails in office three, sixty five or google maps, you could reconnect it very quickly. So, you know, thinking about more practical gotsch is like that with that, you should think about have time, you know, obviously it’s that’s the best practice to think of all these details, and we realised folks may not be able to, so we provided someone sheets and some samples of them of just quick, yes or no questions and thinking this through and things to think about and where will we that is not notice provoc radio has a professional sound i don’t know about ntcdinosaur ten, but that was a way over there. They’re on their own. They can come to us for expertise if they if they need to, but, um, see, now i messed myself up because i ask you about something, but we were just talking about how much, how long will actually take you to recover things and whether or not you should practically skipped recovering something because it might be faster to rebuild it. Okay, i have a follow up to that my smart ass humor, maybe lose it. All right, so why did you leave us with one take away d, r or back-up the session was a little bit misnamed because technically, you’re not going to avoid a disaster. You really can’t. In many cases, you’re not gonna avoid the flood you’re not going to avoid. The earthquake if you’re in that region, so you need to plan on how to deal with it. So it’s more like avoiding avoiding your d are becoming the disaster because you’re not going to avoid the disaster itself, so you might as well plan for it. Outstanding. Thank you very much. Door. Thank you much. Darby america, vice president of technology for lift. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference two thousand fifteen. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Next week it will not be fermentation. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. And by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com a creative producers. Claire miree off. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, but he mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. And this music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the odd learned ninety five percent go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful posts here’s aria finger, ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge. Somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were. And, uh and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for November 1, 2013: When Leaders Leave

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Priscilla Rosenwald: When Leaders Leave

Patricia Rosenwald photoYour CEO has been recruited away for a dream job. Where does that leave you? Priscilla Rosenwald, co-author of “When Leaders Leave” wants you and your board to plan for leadership transition long before it’s announced.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s friday, the first of november twenty thirteen oh, you know that i hope you were with me last week. I’d be forced to endure falik yah leitess if i came to learn that you had missed dr seuss stories, what khun green eggs and ham teach you about digital storytelling? Kelly jarrett with blackbaud had tips for each step of the story arc and lots of great storytelling examples and fraud protection. Melanie morton, manager of blackbaud forms, explained where you may be vulnerable and had a limit your liability for nefarious deeds like check fraud. Both of those were recorded at bebe con this past year. I just last month this week when leaders leave your ceo has been recruited away for a dream job. Where does that leave you? Priscilla rosenwald, co author of when leaders leave once you and your board to plan for leadership transition long before it’s announced she’s with me for the hour on tony’s take to roughly halfway through my thanks to two very loyal listeners we are sponsored by rally bound software for runs, walks and rides they are at rally bound dot com it’s. My pleasure to introduce priscilla rosenwald. She is the co author of when leaders leave she’s an executive recruiter. She and her co author have the site transition works dot com where you’ll find their book. Priscilla has a long history in executive recruiting and board recruiting. Priscilla rosenwald, welcome to the show. Dying. I’m delighted to join you. I’m glad you could thank you from philadelphia, right? Are you in philadelphia now? Yes. I love philly. Um, leadership changes these thiss can have a very big impact on on staff, on boards, on organizations. What? What was the impetus for your book? The evidence for the book was all the experiences that my colleague and i were having being called into organizations when the crisis already occurred. Either a long term leader had given notice on the organization was not prepared for that. Or really, there was a lot of turmoil with a founder and no ability to think about how to have any staff step up and run the organization when the founder exited. So we kept hearing these stories again, and again and again on i thought that if we gave people from guidelines in some steps tow, walk this difficult road, we could make it a lot easier and a lot of scary. As you mentioned, this could be not only a founder, but also along longstanding leader absolutely it’s really about ah, high profile leader who’s really so identified with the organization that everybody thinks of that leader synonymous with the organization, so it may be somebody who didn’t the role ten years, sometimes it’s someone that’s in the roll twenty years and often it’s the founder who certainly the respected respected leader who’s been there a long time, and nobody can imagine the organization without that person. What are some of the other symptoms that we find when there’s one person who had who has this disproportionate power over the organization? Well, often there’s a board that they’ve selected often the board to firms to that leader? So the board often step up in terms of governance, often the talent the organization has not been cultivated, so really it’s, not often a strong leadership pipeline, and the other piece it gets a lot of organizations into trouble is that high profile leader is often the face of all the thunders, so everybody’s terrified that if they leave, the funders really don’t know the organization and won’t fund projects, it won’t fund a mission, and when we have this board that was put in place by the founder or longstanding leader, then the decision making is all pretty much centralized around one person, right? And the board is like rubber stamp pretty much like that. The board doesn’t often ask enough questions are also get enough information there. They’re thinking that they’re being very responsible, but they’re often missing a lot of information to help them be more strategic. You talk a lot about aligning the organization legacy and the leaders legacy and, you know, of course we have the full hour, so we have time to flush these things out. But but what? What what do you thinking, their organizational leadership legacies kapin way think that’s a conversation that rarely happens. So when i when i talk about legacy, i really mean where the leader is thinking, they want to take the organization what impact they wantto have on the organization and then what impact they want the organization tohave so it’s really the impact, their personal impact and really the organization’s impact during their tenure. Okay, so aligning these things and that sounds like it involves a strategic planning process. Haha it does involve a strategic planning process. Um, however, i’d be curious to know how often in strategic planning these issues are actually discussed. So certainly legacy comes up rarely on the other piece that i wanted talk about that ties in with legacy is also succession planning. Yes. Okay. And you also make the distinction between succession planning and transition planning? Yes. Okay, you make that okay. Why don’t? Why don’t you just generalize that and we’ll have time to go into that detail also. Okay. So succession planning if it’s working well for an organization is an ongoing process, succession planning can actually even start as soon as a new leader is in place. Because it’s really continual planning and it’s really about talent management. It’s really growing the talent of the organization and making sure that the organization, um, is growing in line with the challenges that it’s facing so it’s a much more strategic approach. There is something that we call emergency. Succession planning and every organization needs tto have an emergency plan in place if the ceo is the chief executive, it’s called away for a project, has a personal reason to be away for three to six months. So you do need an emergency succession plan, but that’s not the strategic succession plan. Okay, and then, you know, i mean, you’re laying out different long term plans. We’re going to have time, you know? I don’t want you to go too much detail now because we’re going, going, going to come back to you, but try to get a bunch of things, just lay some, lay some ground for for for everybody, all right now transition planning. What is that? Ha ha! So transition planning is put in place once the leader give notice that they’re leaving or decides to leave, some leaders decide that they’re going to retire in a year, and then the transition place the transition planning get started sometimes there’s not a lot of lead time, but that’s really how the organization is going to manage through the transition to search. And then what happens when a new a new leader is hyre okay, and so that’s the that’s what we’re going to execute when we know that there’s going to be a transition great. And we have the plan in place. That’s transition planning. Okay, so we have succession planning. We have transition planning. Um, you, uh you have ah, terrific example in the book of a, uh a phoenix arizona charity, having having done this successfully, the alignment of the of the legacies, right? Can you share that? Yeah, that was that was really a unique situation in that there was a founder who new they were ready to step aside but didn’t want to completely leave the organization, and they were really highly identified with all the thunders. It doesn’t often work. Tohave a founder stay involved with the organization and a new executive come on board. But with some work on the on the part of the board and on the part of my firm, we were able tio positions the founder tohave a narrowly defined role in terms of funding and cultivating the donors, and allowing the executive director to really take over the leadership of the organization in terms of the mission of the organization in terms of their eyes. That can see in terms of their they’re patient work on dh it’s been two years and now, yep, the founder is gradually and gracefully exiting. Okay, now we have just about a minute before a break. Can you just give our overview before we go to break? What? What? That process was between the oncoming ceo and the founder. So what made it work was a lot of very transparent conversations with the founder board meader ship and the incoming executive director in terms of being very clear about rolls and expectations for each of those people. So the founder that was stepping aside and the new executive director that was coming in very clear expectations that we constantly revisits about how they were communicating and who was responsible for what and having the board step up. The board also had a move from being a founder board into growing members of the board who weren’t all selected by the founders. So all these things were happening parallel and it’s really been it was really to your process. Yeah, and it sounds like some difficult conversations we’re going. We’re going to go to a break when we come back. Priscilla rosenwald. And i will keep talking about this will flush out some of these difficult conversations and and help you get these long term plans in place. Get and get at least get started. Stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth? Seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants and we pay attention to the details. You may miss our coaching and consultant services are guaranteed to lead toe. Right, groat. For your business, call us at nine. One, seven, eight, three, three, four, eight, six zero foreign, no obligation. Free consultation. Checkout on the website of ww dot covenant seven dot com are you fed up with talking points? Rhetoric everywhere you turn is last. All right. Spin ideology. No reality. In fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time for action. Join me. Larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the isaac tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to know what’s. Really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me. Very sharp. Your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower, radio dot. Com. For details. That’s, ivory tower radio cop everytime, was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education. Listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter, buy-in. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Priscilla rosenwald is co author of when leaders leave and that’s, we’re talking about leadership transition planning for leadership transition, priscilla, we’re not talking about bad, bad, bad happenings the leader get it gets hit by a bus, how come we don’t use don’t come you don’t use that in the book that’s such a doom and gloom scenario that whenever that expression comes up, people usually get scared, and i don’t want to continue the conversation, so i know it’s very popular. It’s not a conversation starter for us, so we don’t usually begin discussions about succession planning or transition planning with that expression. Okay? So on the positive, it could be that, as i said in the intro, your leader gets recruited away to a dream job or some some fellowship or research opportunity that they just can’t pass up, right? Or what we find also is that a lot of leaders find it there’s still another career left to them, you know, they run this organization, they’ve enjoyed it, but it doesn’t have to be the only success they have in their lives, so they’re starting to think about another way that they could do something different some people want, oh have an academic teaching roll. Some people decide they want to leave and have a consulting practice. So planning for that and having the conversations about that are often what’s really challenging and isn’t the case that some some leaders don’t know how to get out, and then they may have these desires exactly as you’re describing, but they don’t know how to make the move. That’s correct? One one thing that we did here in philadelphia is my colleague and i had an ongoing round table with executives that had been in their roles for a minimum of ten years to talk about how they were positioning the organizations and, you know, having succession conversations, and it was an ongoing group. A lot of the leaders did decide that they were ready to step aside from the organizations, and some of the leaders decided teo reevaluate their role and really reposition the organization. So not everybody decided that they wanted to exit, but everybody used it is a launching pad to think of their legacy and how they wanted their organization to drive. And also how to engage their board differently? Yeah, okay, that exactly. So then i was going to ask you. So what were the next steps whether whether they had decided to leave or or or not, but they were reevaluating what’s the next step after they’ve done the introspective work? Ha! Next step is really looking at two things. One is looking at the board talent and the other one is looking at professional talent, so really making sure that the board has a pipeline of talent there really a succession planning its board level so the board is really engaged in a strategic way and very knowledgeable about the needs and challenges to the organization and ways that other board leaders can step up and work with new people, said it’s, a very tight partnership between the board chair and the high profile leader. So it’s a way to really get boardmember to be more involved in the leadership on the staff side it’s really looking at hell, they’re cultivating talent, so making sure there’s opportunities for staff to grow their skills have more visibility and the other piece it’s really critical that i don’t want to overlook. It thunders that’s often the place where the organization’s really run into difficulty when there’s a transition and that’s it. They haven’t really allowed funders to really need other staff in the organization, and they don’t have a transition plan for how the ceo is going exit and the funders will remain engaged. Okay not-for-profits report, okay, now we’re crossing over into but when we’re talking about the board and the staff and cultivating leadership within that’s, the succession planning, right? Isn’t that part of really kicked into high gear when the transition planning? Right? Right. Okay, but i’m trying to segregate the two so well, so we don’t confuse people. And so i wantto we want to deal with the succession planning part first that’s where we were that’s where you were, you were leading with the board and the staff is that is we’re trying to cultivate leadership and talent from within. Is that right? Okay, how do we do that? How do we identify the right one people? Is this picking one person? You’re going to be the successor? How is this done? My favorite question. No it’s. Not about selecting the successor. It’s really looking at? The people that are in leadership roles, from mid management through senior management and looking to see if people are really having enough opportunities to coach, too. Teo delegate to really move into some of the leadership aspects that the ceo is having, and it’s also incumbent upon them to pass down some of their leadership opportunities so that more people can step up and share leadership with them. So it’s also promoting more transparency around decision making in the organization. So everybody really feels like they’re engaged in the leadership. So it’s, not one person, um, pipeline down to the team in and down to the frontline staff, and this is bored and staff working together in this process, right, absolutely bored working together, okay, we have to put some ego aside. This is. This is very difficult stuff, isn’t it? This is hard stuff. All right? How do we how do we get the founder? Our longstanding leader to start toe advocates? Um, responsibility delegate on dh put that ego side what’s what’s that gonna circle back to what we talked about before. And the conversation that we find most valuable is getting go, the founder of the long term leader to really think about their legacy. And if they start to think about the legacy, their own legacy and the legacy they have for the organisation, it sometimes triggered them. Think about planning and what they want to put in place. Because then they have to put a long range perspective on, you know, if they’re looking thing more short term or more tactical, they’re not off. You’re thinking about their legacy, how they want to re remember. You know what impact they want the organization tohave what credit they want to get for it, okay? And that’s that’s all wrapped up in their in their in their ego but it’s a way to support their ego but helps them think about how their ego translates into the sustainability of the organization. Excellent, excellent. And where does this conversation originate? Is it with the board bringing it to the ceo? It actually does originate at the board level. I mean, sometimes the ceo will start that conversation because you had your because you had your group in philadelphia in our group that was theo’s issues, but it’s really at the board level where that conversation has happen. Here’s here’s one of the problems so i don’t wantto in any way make this sound like it’s easy. The whole conversation of succession often raises a lot of red flags, and ceo thinks that it’s a race, the conversation, then the board thinks they’re ready to leave on the board, thinks if they raise the conversation than they’re telling the ceo that they, you know, they want them to exit if it’s done on a regular basis of succession, conversation is happening at the same time that strategic planning it’s happening, then it’s not a one time conversation, and then it takes some of the sting out of the conversation. It normalizes it. So then we’re continuing to think about developing the ceo and how they’re developing the staff of what it looks like for the organization going forward. It’s not a one time oh, my god, we haven’t thought about what’s gonna happen. Excellent. Yes. That’s. Very good. That’s. A very good point to make and see. This is this is why i love non-profit radio. Because if we were giving you fifteen or twenty minutes, well, everybody gets at least twenty. But we’re giving you twenty minutes. You know, we wouldn’t be able to get to that to that point of of how difficult, how it’s perceived when either party raises the conversation, but because we have an hour together we get we get to flush this out. So excellent. Thank you. All right, so i want can i point out an example, there’s an example in the book. Okay, well, first of all, every every case study in the book is actually based on our work, but i hope so. I hope he’s not made up my god of dramas don’t know they’re all real, but i worked with a young ceo and they’re sitting there’s a case study about her in there. And from the time she walked into the organization, she talked about succession planning. She said to them, you know, i’m still early in my career, i’m not going to stay here my entire career. I want to be very clear about that, but i’m going to say for a long time and i want to put things in place. So starting with the beginning of her tenure, she constantly talked about succession planning and constantly looked at her legacy and what she was going to do for the organization made amazing things happen. They made some financial decisions, they made some facility decisions, she actually positioned the organization, so when she left, they supported her, they applauded her, they were ready for her successor and she’d been there under ten years. That’s that’s got to be rare with ceo talks about succession planning at the beginning of their tenure, but but it sounds brilliant. It worked for her, and she continues to have a really high profile career in the reason and that’s, another way of, i guess, securing for the board that this isn’t because i’m ready to leave. I just got started, you know, i’m in my first couple of months here, but but we have to plan for when i do leave, right? So how does that make it easier for the board, tio tio here. Well, if if the conversation is less about the person and more about the organization, then it’s much easier conversation have. Okay. Okay. You know, our ideal is to take it away. You asked about egos. We don’t want this to be ego driven. We wanted to really be driven by what’s. Good for the organization. And i don’t want to leave people with the thought that well, i’m the executive director on i’ve been here two years and i didn’t start the succession planning discussion when i started. So it’s too late now, it’s tze not too late, but later. Yeah, okay. And as you point out, make it about the organization. Okay? Is there a is there a committee of the board that should be dealing with this? O r? Is this a full board activity? How do we implement this success in planning process at the boardmember? Great question. So it’s usually may have different names, but on the board it could be the governance committee. Could be the strategic planning commitee. Yeah, sometimes it’s rolled into the nominating committee. But it really is at a committee level. And at that committee there really should be at least one member of the executive team involved, okay? And our succession plan is this this’s a written document that, of course, like a strategic plan. We keep revisiting it’s, not like you put on a shelf. Forget it, but is this is this a written document? It is that the outcome. It is a written document that exactly get revisited along with the strategic plan. So it’s continually revisited in terms of where we’re going, with success in how are the rolls changing of the senior leadership? How is the role changing of the ceo? You know, maybe they started with everything on their plate. Maybe they’re starting to share responsibility, maybe they’re starting teo grow their team. Maybe they’re sending more people out to be the face of the organization, so constantly revisiting that and i want to get back to how important it is for that also happened at the board level, the succession planning it’s really happening concurrently with the board and with staff? Yes, and that i wanted to move to the staff right now. Perfect, because they’re they’re an integral part of this. Um, are they are they involved beyond the it sounds like they are beyond the cultivation of their talents? How is staff involved in this succession planning? Well, they’re really constantly involved because they’re constantly involved in coaching. I say that again and again could supervising and coaching or not one in the same so it’s their role to be coaching talent. Um, it’s really up to them to be part of joining in the decision making, it gives staff the opportunity. Tohave more transparent conversations with chief executive it. Really changes the tenor and the tone of of the leadership of the organization because it means that all the things that could never be talked about publicly now could be talked about. You know, what happens if and let’s think about this and, you know, talk about worst case scenarios, planning for success, planning for challenges, it’s all on the table. Excellent. Okay, as you said earlier, open open conversations, transparent, but but difficult conversations. How do we how do we execute these conversations at the staff level? We having having meetings about succession planning? We’re doing this. I know it’s. I know in general it’s ah it’s ah, conversation with the board. But we’re doing it at board meetings and having staff come. How do we execute this for the staff on nice question you love my questions. I’m i’m pretty pleased myself. So people do it’s not our world, to tell people how to do strategic planning, but usually success full strategic planning, engaging staff as well as the board. So the staff for part of the conversation at the strategic planning level and then and it may cast k down, so it may not be the entire staff, but it may be representative to the staff, but if the staff are engaged in the conversation and it’s easy for them to be part of the follow through and part of the planning if it’s just handed down from the board, it’s really much more challenging for the staff to take a role in it? What if? What if we already have our strategic plan in place? We just we just wrapped it up earlier in twenty thirteen, and we didn’t include succession planning as a part of it. Another good question you wrapped it up, but you wrap it up as a couple of year plan. So it’s a it’s a three year plan, for instance, so the first time you revisit it, so you’re going to revisit a tier one that’s a perfect time to then have the succession plan in conversation. So there’s always windows to commit and have this conversation. And i want to say that i don’t expect that every organization can do this by themselves. It’s all facilitated process, you often need an outside consultant help you have some of these challenging conversation, so i don’t expect the ceo of the boards here to be able to easily step up and lead this. But once the consultant comes in and get the process going, i think the organization can can take their cues and manage it from there. And that’s, typical of strategic planning, generally that’s, the way it’s done. All right, we have to go to another break when we come back. Tony’s, take two. I have two very loyal listeners to thank, and then priscilla and i will continue talking, and we’ll move from succession, planning to transition planning. Stay with us. There e-giving inventing the tubing, getting dink, dink, dink, dink. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Nothing. Cubine are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun. Shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz durney i’m chuck longfield of blackbaud. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Tony’s take too. There are two people that i want to thank very much. I met high energy judy i dubbed her when i hosted a breakfast panel a couple of weeks ago for the association of fund-raising professionals here in new york city, the subject was creating a culture of philanthropy throughout your organization, in business offices and program department’s way beyond just the fund-raising office and, um, judy is a high energy judy, a trustee of a nationwide charity, and she does what i really hoped that boardmember listeners will do. She shares the shows with the staff of the organization when she thinks they’re relevant to their work and that’s that’s what i have in mind as as i’m producing this show for our boardmember listeners that everything isn’t relevant to your organisation, but what is i hope you are passing on, and if you’re in the organizations which most of our listeners are, i hope your your board members are filtering things to you and obviously that you’re thinking on your own that different topics are relevant to your work. But judy was just a perfect example of what i hope boardmember sze are doing as as you are listening, she was also very generous with her compliments of the show, and she had great passion for the charity registration work that i talk about sometimes and that i do in my own consulting. So judy, i didn’t you didn’t have a card, but i always have car. I gave you one of my cards. I offered you half a dozen, but you only took one. Please get in touch with me. I’d love to be in contact with you, judy. And it was a pleasure to meet you. Also eric anderson, eric blog’s at donorsearch reems dot wordpress, dot com and eric wrote a very complimentary post aboutthe show it was called have you discovered non-profit radio yet? He loves the show. He included links to some recent shows linked to the itunes paige. And in his blogged he asks, who is this martignetti guy i love that it was it was very sweet and it was really also very complimentary of the show. And eric, i thank you for introducing the show to your followers on your block and his block again is donorsearch reems dot wordpress, dot com high energy judy eric anderson i thank you very, very much. I’m grateful for your support and regular listening, and that is tony’s take two for friday, first of november forty third show of the year. I can’t give life listener love again, i’m i’m, i’m out of the studio, it will have been about three shows in a row out of the studio, but i will be back, but all the live listeners, you know, where you’re all from and if you’re not from one place, you know, while the other live listeners because i’m always sending so much live listener love, so we know we’re well represented in asia and all those very popular listening states throughout the country. I’m not going to regale you this this week and also, of course, podcast pleasantries very grateful to have all the podcast listeners. Thank you for listening, priscilla let’s, let’s go to yeah, you’re with me, right? I’m with you and i just wanna have mentioned a word that i think is very critical and we haven’t talked about in the first part of our discussions going that word has changed and that really underlies the reason that we wrote with leaders leave and that really underlying the critical issues. So it’s really about helping organizations constantly think about change, be prepared for change the position for change on dh no one knows what the change is going to look like. So it’s a matter of organizations being nimble and putting some of these systems in place. All right, we’re going to talk about the second recommended system or plan moving from the longer term succession planning to the transition planning. And why don’t you remind us? How is this different than the succession planning? So transition planning is put in place once it’s clear that the ceo chief executive is going to be deporting the organization whatever that time frame is, as soon as it’s clear that that train is in place than that the succession planning moved into actual transition planning. Okay. And to make sure that this train does not end up in a train wreck, right, we have a transition plan that’s in place long before we know that there’s going to be a departure. Okay. Right. What? How do we initiate this transition? Planning process so way mentioned this before we have a board committee that’s involved in the transition? Okay, same committee. So there’s a committee there’s a beginning of preparing which staff are going to have leadership will storing the transition? Um, you begin to do the communications about the transition of the chief executive, and you also start to stewart the funders. So the thunders air in place of the thunder start to understand that’s going to be a change in the organization. And i mean individual thunders institutional funders. Nothing is harder for an organization in terms of their long term growth that when a funder find out suddenly that the chief executive is exiting and they weren’t prepared for it, and they get very nervous about their support for the organization. So stewarding the thunder is an important component of your fund-raising professionals will agree those those fundez maybe individual or or institutional when you say fundez you just mean institutions, right? Ok, now you had made the the point. I’m a little confused the earlier that we’re not in the succession plan. We’re not naming the successor now by the time we have to execute our transition plan which again time stands it’s and it’s been in place for a while, but now we have to execute it now. It is time to name a successor. It is, isn’t it? Not necessarily. Okay, well, maybe that’s my confusion. Alright, no, i’m helen it’s a valid confusion success in planning doesn’t necessarily mean identifying a successor. That means identifying a talent pool that can manage the organization. Sometimes there is talent that emerges to be the successor, but it’s much harder to put that responsibility of one person through lots of reasons they might get recruit away in the process or sometimes there they don’t have the right competencies to move into the leadership role. What we see sometimes is the number two is offering operations person, and they do operations really wonderfully, and they get tagged to be the successor, and then they get into the role of being the face of the organization. They’re not comfortable being the things of the organization, they’re not comfortable doing the fund-raising and they may not be comfortable moving out of their operations roll so it’s much harder to identify successor didn’t let that process happen organically, through the transition and through the search process. What are we announcing then, as we’re executing our transition plan? We know there’s going to be a change in leadership. What are we announcing about the the successor or the plan to get to those? Thank you were announcing you love my questions. I’m sorry. I said you love my questions are great communication is about the stability of the organization during the transition. So that means there is a sense of timing for how long the incumbent is going to be there. And it also means often when they’ve been a long term leader or founder identifying an interim executive to be in place in the organization while the recruiting process is happening, it provides a lot of stability to the organization, and it also gives the staff and the board have time to deal with their issues of grief and loss. Because if there’s been a beloved leader, people need that time tohave, um, to catch their breath, to deal with their issues of law and then be prepared. Teo, accept and support a new leader. The role of an interim executive director now are you? Are you recommending that there be an interim person between the last day of the founder or longstanding leader on the beginning? The day the first day of the successor ceo. We always recommend that. D’oh. So so it’s. Not good, it’s. Not good for it in part of the transition. So it’s not good for the person to stay for the ceo to stay until the successor begins. It’s not ideal. Okay, it’s. Not ideal. And the other thing. And thank you for asking that it is. Boards often won the long term leader of founder to not just stay till their successor comes, but stay around and shepherd them through all the systems and policies and introduced him to everybody. Um, you know, i sometimes like in this to a marriage, um, and it’s really hard, if you know, if the husband gets married, has a new wife. And they think the ex wife really has to stay in the picture to talk about how everything happens. It’s something harder. So it’s much better that the high profile will well respect the loved chief executive founder gets a lot of accolades that there’s a public event to honor them, that they get a lot of support during their transition. So they leave feeling have be uncomfortable. And that their successor can come in with a clean slate and that the board looks to the new leader and doesn’t keeping deferring to the former leader. And you recommend that in between there there’d be an interim executive director or interesting in terms? Yes. I’m sorry. You said what i said. I recommend that and more. Okay, i recommend that with a caveat. And the caveat is that the interim executive director bia hyre professional and not the board chair and not usually an acting staff member. And i’m gonna tell you why, okay, but there are okay, we’ll get to the y in a sec, but i just wantto make sure people understand that there are consultants that act as interim executive. Director’s? Yes. There’s, always the pool’s consultant. Sometimes their former executive directors. Um, sometimes they’re people who had leadership roles, and they’re perfectly qualified to come in and serve in an interim capacity. Okay. And now the why you had mentioned a grieving and mourning process. What more you want to say about the why? There should be this interim person it’s partly to deal with the grief and loss. Sometimes, if there’s been a founder long term leader. They haven’t made tough decisions about staff rolls, and often the interim can come in and do the work in the organization prepare the successor to be successful. You don’t really want to hire the new leader to come in and have to do the dirty work that was left over from the former executive. They shouldn’t have to come in on dh deal with challenging employees that should all be done during the interim. The organization has a fresh perspective and is ready to move forward when the new leader comes in. Excellent, very inter treyz thing. And how long do you what what minimum do you recommend for the interim? So a minimum of three months, probably a maximum of six months. Okay, okay. And they have to they have to do some really dirty work, but we all know that they’re going to be leaving. So that legacy of dealing with the challenges which, you know, i think we’re talking about they’re firing people, reorganizing things like that. That, yes, looking scrupulously at finances right now, that’s all done by the interim person who is going to leave in three to six months, right? So they can make some of those hard decisions and ray’s heart issues that may not have happened during the long term leaders tenure. Excellent. Okay, now i don’t know. I don’t think most organizations planned this way. Do they have, isn’t it? Most organizations hyre an interim, and they’ll name someone probably internally, because the timing just works that way, they kind of default into it. Yes, okay, well, you could say in what happens, that’s, really, why we’re very big fans of planning. So if there’s a plan in place, then you can think about what happened, what they anticipate and that you’re never caught by surprise. Okay, okay. We’re going toe. Take a break. And when we come back, priscilla and i are going close this topic a little more on this. Very interesting, the interim, the interim ceo. So stay with us. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back, priscilla. I’m really thrilled that we got this made this point about there being an interim person as part of the as part of the plan is part of the transition plan. Absolutely. And you brought in earlier the topic of the funders let talk about that. What should the interim person be saying to the individuals and the institutions that are supporting us? So that’s part of the communication plan? So there’s a communication plan that should go out so the head of development should be working very closely with ian from executive director and the board chair to really talk to all the donors. I’m very concerned about institutional donors because i see a lot of foundations often put funding on hold when there’s a leadership change, so talking to them assuring them about what, how smooth the processes so they understand that there really is a process that the organization is being will manage during the transition seems to make a big difference for funders talking to individual donors about the mission of the organization and moving it from the profile. The leader to the work of the organization really sets the stage for the new leader to commence if you have these succession and transition plans in place, should you share them with institutional funders at the time that you’re making the proposal just toe say, maybe you’re just in a short paragraph that there’s there’s been considerable planning in case there should be a leadership change during the period of your funding? Is that worthwhile? That’s absolutely critical. In fact, thunders are starting to ask for it or that you’re seeing that, yes, they’re starting to ask, what kind of succession planning is in place often old they’re concerned about is the emergency short term planning, but they want to know that organizations, they’re starting to think about it, okay? And since you mentioned the emergency short term planning, let’s, let’s, talk a little about the emergency succession plan. What is that that’s? A new emergency plan for a temporary absence and that’s really, when i say temporary it’s really three to six months of an absence of the executive for a personal issue? Or again, you know, if they have to lead a major panel or a major project, but it’s really good to be short term, so we know they’re going. To be coming back quickly? Yes. Ok, i would just say that the expected contrast with the other planning we’ve been talking about the expectation here is that the person is going to return right here. They’re going to return. They may have left for a health issues they may have left from it, you know, pregnancy we’ve so we know it’s really interim planning, all right. And what should be the parts of our emergency succession plan? The parts are whose designated to assume leadership in the axe in the absence of the chief executive. What a story they have. Um, what the process in place to contact and inform staff how you’re going in for major stakeholders like your donors, who’s going to do that communication and what role staff will have in the absence of the chief executive of the rolls are clearly going to change temporarily. So it needs to be spelled it really clearly who’s going to do what and who’s going to manage and how decision making is going to happen. And then the last piece is very critical is who on the board is going to oversee this? It could be the board. Chair or it could be another member of the executive team that’s charged with overseeing the running of the organization during the interim absence of the chief executives. Can we hire one of these outsource interim executive directors to fill this role? Or is that is that not appropriate? For some reason, i not heard many organizations deciding to hire an outside if it’s just a temporary leave. Okay, okay, because there will be an opportunity for some of the staff to step up, step up knowing that it’s short term, sure enough, right? You’re right, that makes more sense. Let’s, let’s, go back to the to the institutional and individual funders. What is the well? Is anything more than the interim executive director needs to be saying aside from the that there is a plan in place and we’re managing transition carefully? No, because after that that’s really the responsibility of the inn from after that it really full to the development professional on the board chair to continue to have conversations with their funders and to continue to make them comfortable with the transition process. And again, you’re emphasizing the board is involved in this part of the communication actually, during a leadership change, i think that’s really the most critical time for the board to step up. That’s really their role, although they do fund-raising and they oversee policy, the board’s role in a transition is the most critical role they have. Okay, so it’s not only the board chair. Oh, no, no, really it’s really the board chair is leading it, and the executive committee is taking an active role. But it’s a really important time for the board. They’re also going to be involved in the search process for the new executive. So it’s, a very critical time for the board as well. Okay, we have just a couple of minutes left and i want to ask what it is that you love about the work that you do around transition. Oh, another wonderful questions. Um i think it’s exciting to help people think about change on embrace change and go towards change rather than running away from it. So it’s, always fun to watch the paradigm shift as people really get excited to think of that change. But people fear change. So why is it you write it’s? I’m envisioning you as a firefighter. You know, everybody’s running out of a burning building. And you’re the one running in with a hundred pounds of hose on your back. Why are you running toward on dh? So so in love with what people fear so much? Uh, mostly because it’s inevitable. Um, no matter how much you trying to avoid change, it’s the only constant we can count on. So we might as well embrace it and figure out how to use it in our favor. Very pragmatic. It’s. Very realistic. Brazil. Rosenwald, co author of when leaders leave, you will find that book at transition works. Dot com priscilla, you need to be one and thank you. Oh, soon to be on amazon. Okay, you’ll find it there as well. Honey, you’re a pleasure. Oh, thank you, it’s. You not to keep well, there’s, no more chances for your tio. Thank me for my great questions, but thank you for being so gracious and loving all my questions. Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure having you. Thank you, priscilla. Thanks. Take care next week. Getting to the next level. Lawrence paige nani is author of the non-profit friendraising solution based on his work as an executive director and fund-raising consultant, he has many proven strategies to get you to the next level of fund-raising revenue that ubiquitous question, how do we get to the next level? Lawrence has the answers next week. Rally bound is a sponsor, which i’m very grateful for. They make easy to use software for runs, walks and rides there at rally bound dot com i’ve told you i’ve met the ceo way had breakfast together schnoll lee is a very nice guy and very concerned about how non-profits manage their campaigns, and so he has developed software that helps you to do that. That gives support, of course to you very easy to use dashboard, but then also support for the people who are out asking their friends to give to your campaign. So i hope you can appreciate how he is thinking about what your needs are and what the needs of your your donors are who are out asking their friends it’s all built into their software at rally bound dot com. I’ve also worked with joe mcgee there and he’s, the one who actually help you set up your campaign, so i suggest if you’re thinking about run, walk rides, look at rally bound dot com, or you could just call them. 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