Tag Archives: nonprofit staffing

Nonprofit Radio for March 7, 2022: Get Off The Recruitment Merry-Go-Round

Teri Beckman: Get Off The Recruitment Merry-Go-Round

When someone leaves your nonprofit, it’s an opportunity to carefully assess, not a time to jump into a hasty job description and post it on LinkedIn. Teri Beckman shares her strategies for thoughtfully recruiting, developing and retaining talent. She’s founder and CEO of HIGOL.



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[00:01:53.84] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with para magnesia if you gave me the false idea that you missed this week’s show, get off the recruitment merry go round when someone leaves your nonprofit, it’s an opportunity to carefully assess, not a time to jump into a hasty job description and posted on linkedin. Terry Beckman shares her strategies for thoughtfully recruiting, developing and retaining talent. She is founder and Ceo of High Goal on tony steak too 22 NTC. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome Terry Beckman to nonprofit radio she has worked in the nonprofit sector for over 30 years, including five years as an executive director. She understands leadership challenges and has been a strategic advisor and consultant, two executive directors and ceos as they grow their organizations, teams and boards. She and her team at high goal help nonprofit leaders, increased revenue and community impact. The company is at high goal dot c o. That is h I G O L for high impact growth oriented leaders and she’s at terry Beckman. Welcome terry.

[00:01:56.54] spk_1:
Hey Tony, it’s great to be here.

[00:02:22.04] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you on nonprofit radio thank you. Thank you. Let’s uh let’s let’s go right in because I think this is a an area where nonprofits could benefit from some, some advice about taking a breath. So let’s say someone has just given two weeks notice. What do we do,

[00:02:22.84] spk_1:
what do you do? Yeah, it’s nice when you get two weeks notice right? Sometimes

[00:02:28.17] spk_0:
That doesn’t happen or you can make it three days or 24 hours. But I was trying to, I thought I was trying to give like an average

[00:02:42.14] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah or I quit now. I had a client who, she had a team of 10 people and five of them left in one week. Either they were fired or they left on their own and oh

[00:02:46.79] spk_0:
Gosh, okay, well I did, I quit a job with 24 hours notice once

[00:02:50.24] spk_1:
if you get

[00:03:13.24] spk_0:
Mad enough, you know. Yeah. The last job I had, I quit it with 24 hours notice. That was 19. No, it was 2003. I am I certain that I would be a lousy employee. You wouldn’t want to onboard me, you don’t want to retain me off boarding me in the interview. We compress, yeah. With me, you compress the whole compress the whole cycle, you could on board, you could, you

[00:03:18.27] spk_1:
could, you

[00:03:25.14] spk_0:
could interview on board and off board being in like an hour and a half, you know, would put your, put your practice out of work but it would accelerate the cycle at least there’d be a lot of,

[00:03:37.64] spk_1:
yeah, it’s, you know, some of us are meant to be entrepreneurs but you know, most of us are

[00:03:46.14] spk_0:
not. So that’s what I’d be a lousy employee. Yeah, vacation request forms and you know, please could I have christmas day off? All right. All right. So let’s go to this. Uh, let’s go to the reasonable hypothetical. You got two weeks.

[00:03:52.11] spk_1:
Yeah. You have two weeks notice.

[00:03:54.60] spk_0:
What do you want folks

[00:04:53.64] spk_1:
to do? Yeah. Well, the first thing actually, you know, for Executive directors, typically this ends up on their plate in some shape or form, right? For the other 95%. And um, you know, the first thing I advise folks is just to take a deep breath. Like you really don’t have to panic. You don’t have to panic. Um, even though I’m sure whoever has, you know, resigned has a to do list 10 miles long. And of course your biggest fear is that’s going to become your to do list. Right? But that’s a, you know, it’s really, that’s a short term problem. And um, so the first thing really is to take a deep breath. And I think that in a way the very first question is, you know, do you, do you really still need this position? It’s the first question and you know, if that’s not clear, maybe the, you know, maybe the, the job as it was, you know, originally constituted doesn’t make sense anymore for the organization.

[00:05:06.92] spk_0:
So, you know, like, All right. So I’m gonna encapsulate that as don’t stress assess.

[00:05:12.34] spk_1:
There you go. I like that. Yeah, good for

[00:05:32.94] spk_0:
you. If I could think of something wrong with you gotta think of something to write with panic. I’d say don’t panic and do something else, but I couldn’t think of anything wrong with panic, but don’t stress assess maybe the job isn’t needed, but you had someone in the job. So isn’t that doesn’t that de facto mean by the Yeah, well forget by default, doesn’t that the fact don’t mean the job is needed? We had somebody in it.

[00:05:37.64] spk_1:
No, that doesn’t mean that

[00:05:39.24] spk_0:
needed. Yeah.

[00:07:04.94] spk_1:
Yeah. So, you know, I think, I think to answer that question also, it’s nice to just take a breath again and ask yourself, you know, is my vision clear for the organization for the next 12 months? Like where where do I really want to bring the organization in the next 12 months? Where’s the potential where opportunities and then yeah, if that’s clear, then you can really, Really look at how does this position contribute to bringing the organization to that point over the next 12 months, then you’re you’re, you know, you then you’re sort of stepping out of the kind of the panic cycle, right of someone leaving and getting much more strategic about, you know, time and money and skills, right? Which is this great resource in a sense that you have to be able to rehire. Um and and really looking at Yeah. What given these resources, how would, how could, how would I like to best deploy that to really help me leverage where I want to go over the next 12 months. I think that’s ultimately the question and that might be the same job, right? The person that’s leaving and maybe, maybe it’s not, maybe it’s slightly different, Maybe it’s a completely different job. You know, the other thing that can come up is also looking at the orc chart, right? And this is especially true. Wait,

[00:07:27.04] spk_0:
I’m going to stop before we go to the chart. Yeah, we’ll get to the orC chart. Okay, I promise. But so, so you’re suggesting, like, maybe there are things that this this job could encompass that the previous person wasn’t doing, or maybe some of these things are better done elsewhere, and maybe this has been in the back of your mind or

[00:08:56.14] spk_1:
all of those things, or maybe, you know, maybe it hasn’t been in the back of your mind, but, you know, sometimes when, you know, we we stay stuck in patterns with people, right? Like, okay, this is my job, leave me alone and let me do it. And they kind of do it reasonably well. But, you know, that’s what happens. You know, organizations are living are living organisms, really, and so their, you know, their environment is changing, they’re changing the dynamics within the organization, is changing the board is changing all of these things that there’s fluidity to them, especially coming out of the pandemic, right? There’s a tremendous amount of change that’s happened over the last couple of years. Um and so it could very well be that this position was not is not Really best focused and aligned with what your current needs are. You know, and like you said, two could be that this person, you know, maybe they’re doing things that could be even outsourced for less money so that, you know, low value kinds of repeating activities so that, you know, in the next incarnation, they could be focused on activities that are really bringing a lot more value to the organization. Those are, yeah, those are questions you can ask around that as well, you know, I just feel like every time there is someone leaves, it’s a great opportunity just to do a little refresh to see how does this position align with where we’re really headed as an organization.

[00:09:33.84] spk_0:
Alright, so don’t stress, assess, take a breath That that 10 mile long to do list, right? I mean, it can be uh maybe some of it can be delegated. I mean, if it’s, if it’s, if it’s a database person, you know, you’re not going to be, you’re not gonna be querying the database for the next mailing, you’re gonna, right, okay, so take a look at, you know, so you have to have a conversation with the person, understand what is coming, right?

[00:10:30.24] spk_1:
Yes, yes. That’s, you know, that’s certainly another piece of it, right? It’s kind of preparing that person to leave. So there’s the forward looking piece of like, okay, what do we want to do with this position moving forward and then there’s the backward looking piece which is equally important. So knowing what is coming up, what’s the price, you know, what does this person see as a priority? What, you know, what does their to do list look like? You know? And then also, I think naturally leads to the exit interview as well, um where the person has a chance to really honestly share, you know, their insights about the organization and you know what they see the strengths being, where they see the weaknesses. Um if there’s if there are other, you know, people leave organizations for all kinds of reasons, it’s helpful if they could really be honest with you or if you have an HR person about, you know, why, why are they leaving? It’s always it’s always very helpful to know that more clearly

[00:11:08.54] spk_0:
that I still have the orchestra in mind, we’re going back to the heart. But the the exit interview, I mean, that’s isn’t that hard for the ceo to to conduct because he or she may be the reason that the person is leaving or if they’re not the direct reason, you know, if the person is unhappy and they’re unhappy with the organization generally or with their job? I mean, it ultimately feeds up into the ceo you know, what level of honesty are you likely to get when it’s Yeah,

[00:11:28.44] spk_1:
yeah. I think it depends on the circumstance. Um, certainly that can be the case that, you know, especially if there’s tension with the ceo of the executive director, it could be that it might be better suited for someone else in the organization to do the exit interview. So that creates a little bit more safety, um, for the person leaving. That could be the case as

[00:11:40.84] spk_0:
well. Um, Alright, so the organ chart, you want us to look at the Yeah. As we’re not stressing, we’re assessing, Right. Right. What’s, what’s the role of the orchid chart here?

[00:13:18.24] spk_1:
Well, so that, yes, that goes back towards sort of the forward facing again, right, assessing? Um, mm hmm. It’s a similar question. Right. So is the ORC chart, you know, isn’t where we need it to be given, where we want to go in the future, Right. Or does is this an opportunity to tweak the ORC chart a little bit and to, to really think about, you know, if we were ideally organized, what might that look like? And again, I think if you if you’re facing more than one, the person leaving, then obviously there’s more flexibility and kind of really looking at the org chart, but I, I think that’s always worth a look, you know, that’s always worth a look in the assessment, You know, does it make sense if you’re going to be changing the job description, does it make sense that this person reporting up through the right, you know, the right supervisor, for example, through the right thing. Um Yeah, so I think that’s that’s always good to look at. And in the earlier example I gave of the client who lost half her team. Yeah. One thing we talked about it, all 10 of them were reporting to her, which just was too, too many people. So part of what we we did was create a middle layer, right? Where, you know, so she had no more than four people reporting to her and just gave her a little bit of a buffer because that was very

[00:13:19.66] spk_0:
10 direct reports. I’m not sure anybody. I’m not sure anybody should have that.

[00:13:23.86] spk_1:
No, it was too many. So, you know, that was that was a chance to look at her or charts. So it just, it depends, you know, on the circumstance, but it’s a it’s a good thing to have a look at. I think when someone leaves

[00:13:41.24] spk_0:
With, with with 50% of that person’s staff leaving, uh was your client the problem.

[00:15:07.44] spk_1:
Um you know? Yes and no. So one thing that um she took the time to do at that point was to really create their core operating principles. So she, you know, took some time to create five core operating principles and this was super helpful. It was really um gave the made it very clear upfront that this is who we are, and this is how we operate. And it really was very tied into value statements, right? Like this, this is the way we will treat our clients, these are, you know, these are our principles in a sense, in terms of how we work. Um, and because she had team members that were not aligned with those core operating principles, it was definitely part of the problem. And so there was huge tension there. Um, so working on that, you know, and we’re gonna kind of start leaking into the job description, we wanted to put up front in the job description really, and we have done work on this as well as a clear vision and mission for the organization. And then those core operating principles, so that whoever’s, you know, whoever applies that is the very, very first thing you read. Um, and there’s discussion about that in the interview, so that, you know, there’s real alignment when people are coming on board, they really understand that this organization stands for certain things and if you’re not comfortable with that, this isn’t going to be the right place for you,

[00:16:37.94] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, they have a free webinar coming up crisis communications, you ought to have a plan or at least the outline of a plan and that’s what they’re gonna cover in this free webinar, they will take you step by step through a crisis communications plan or protocol if you like the like the more State department sounding crisis communications you want to be prepared. I don’t even want to go through the possibilities of you know that that a crisis could uh could look like I think we know enough about yeah we know enough about that. You want to be prepared. They’re free webinar is on March 24 naturally if you can’t attend live you get the recording so you sign up they’ll send you the link to the recording and where do you sign up at turn hyphen two dot c o slash webinars. Now back to get off the recruitment merry go round. You you started to talk about, you started to mention you just mentioned that the attributes of the job. How does that I mean they need to be aligned with where you see the organization going to definitely be aligned with your organization. Chart. What what else, what

[00:16:53.94] spk_1:
else? Yeah. Yeah. So you know most job descriptions that I read are elongated to do list. That’s what they would say. Well there’s

[00:17:13.14] spk_0:
the responsibilities and the and the qualifications basically introduction about the about what what the organization does that is the key responsibilities and of course the last one is always and other duties as assigned

[00:17:16.59] spk_1:

[00:17:35.34] spk_0:
You could have just you could just put that you could just have the job, the key, the key responsibilities one bullet everything we tell you to do. You know, you do, you need to do it again, condensing condensing down. But um, and, and then there’s the, and then there’s the skills, skills required, skills optional skills, preferred skills required,

[00:17:41.04] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. And experience. Right. Right. Right.

[00:17:45.27] spk_0:
All right. You don’t care for that.

[00:20:31.24] spk_1:
Well, I wouldn’t say that those things are not important, but they are, we give those things way more important. I think in the hiring process than is actually the case in terms of what will produce, you know, a highly productive, highly engaged person that has the skills you need and we’ll be there for a long time. Like putting all the emphasis on the to do list man and especially post covid that is not the way to go. In my experience. Um, you know, people are really tired of being treated like widgets. I think that’s a big part of what we’re seeing in the great resignation and the great, great resignation is certainly affecting the nonprofit sector as well. Um, and so what I would, I would I suggest is folks, I think you’re gonna have plenty of time to develop to do list. Right? That’s really not a problem. The, the, the, the, the thing that I encourage people to think about job descriptions is it’s a marketing tool. This is a way to attract the right people to your organization that are going to be committed to it that see it as more than a job, right? That see it as something that they they have a role in creating something that is bigger than the sum of its parts essentially bigger than themselves. Um, and this is, you know, I I think people, this is we’re really craving for this now as a culture and a society for deeper meaning in our work again, you know, this is what is really getting reflected in in in folks who are part of this great resignation. And so um, you know, like as I said, we we I like to see people start with mission. Mission vision corp takes some time to develop core principles and then you get into the meat of the particular job description. But I want to I like to see folks right? The job description from the perspective of helping the applicant understand how will this role play a part in helping the organization meet its vision. Like what’s how are they contributing to that? Right. How are they contributing to the bigger picture? A lot of stuff that’s never discussed even. You know, again, we just kind of like hire people like we buy toilet paper. I mean at least that’s what we’ve done in the past. Um, and you know, you just put yourself in a real competitive disadvantage doing that. Um,

[00:20:32.20] spk_0:
I’m not sure which is more scarce sometimes toilet paper or the people or labor. Yeah,

[00:20:38.34] spk_1:
it’s true. Yeah, that’s really true. They’re both really scarce, aren’t they?

[00:20:57.54] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m sure you would say that it’s right. You’re smart to hold out for the right candidate. Not just take somebody who you know is pretty close. You know they came early. I’ve got this job. I got to fill it. You want us to hold out for the right Absolutely. Mission and values. Core principles.

[00:22:26.34] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean in an ideal world the Ceo or executive director is not talking to anybody except the final applicants that rise to that level. You know, honestly, even if you don’t have an HR function, I strongly encourage that you get a hiring buddy. You know hiring partner, someone in the organization that’s going to help you with the hiring process. And um, that can really help weed out all the folks who are not going to be a good fit, right? And and and attract the folks who are going to be a good fit. So um, one thing that’s really nice to do I like doing is having an application that folks fill out in addition to providing you with a resume where you’re asking them questions up front in the application. Um, Again, you want to put all that good juicy stuff up front around your vision mission. The core values. You can put that there in the application and then ask the questions. Um, you know, I would, I would like to see people ask questions around culture and mission honestly. And uh and and this helps to first to know that gives it really telegraphs quickly to the applicants that you’re serious about that. Um

[00:22:38.44] spk_0:
The other like what like what how would you how do you ask questions around culture? Are you committed? Are you committed to or we’re committed to something or you like Yes, check yes or no or or I’m I’m oversimplifying.

[00:24:35.94] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know like again it depends a little bit on the organization and its values. But let me give you some examples of questions that I’ve seen in applications. So one is, you know, what is your commitment to um professional growth as an individual? What’s your commitment to that? Um How do you see, you know how do you see your um yeah. You know your individual growth contributing to the wider organization? Um what is what attracted you to our organization? Why do you want to work for us? Um um what’s you know, how how important is collaboration to you? You know, you can ask questions if you want to have a strong collaborative team, you can ask questions around collaboration. Um how closely have you collaborated with others? Can you give me an example where you were working on a team project? And there was miscommunication around the direction that the project was going. What did you do? How did you handle it? Those kinds of things? So it it causes people to stop and actually have to think right about how they would handle something like that and what’s most important to them this process. I mean first of all, a good number of people will never fill out the application, right? Because they’re not really serious about the job or they’ll fill it out in a very cursory way right there, kind of half fill it out and they’ll give one or two quite, you know, kind of three sentence answers kinds of things or three word answers I should say. Um and so those, it’s just easy that way. It’s like, no, no, no, don’t know. And then folks who are sincerely engaging with the application, they’re serious, right? They’re serious about the job,

[00:25:05.24] spk_0:
right? So, so it serves a screening purpose, but also you’re even just starting to onboard the person you are, you’re showing them what’s important and you’re making sure that they’re aligned with with with, with that culture with. Yeah. All right. So it has a practical purpose as well as uh practical immediate purpose as well as a midterm purpose for for helping screen and on board and on board I should say that’s the that’s the midterm.

[00:25:10.20] spk_1:
It is, it’s the beginning of the on boarding

[00:25:12.07] spk_0:
socialize them to the organization. Yeah, I love that tony

[00:26:36.64] spk_1:
I thought of it that way, but that’s very true. Yeah, yeah. And then I like to see your hiring buddy is handling the applications right? Um if if at all possible. So you want to make sure that you’re on the same page with that person about the culture that you’re trying to create in the organization. And that’s really kind of a culture test. Um you know, based some, you know, basic skills are important, but you want to remember that skills and experience are actually the thing that we can get the fastest, like a person’s motivation and um kind of their, you know, Yeah, their motivations and their preferences. Those things don’t change very quickly, but skills and experience, we really, in a year’s time, you can gain a lot of skills and experience if you’re very focused right? In in in something. So, I mean, you can’t obviously become a brain surgeon in a year if you’re hiring a brain surgeon, but there’s a lot, I mean, given our information age, there’s an awful lot of experience and knowledge that people can gain really pretty quickly. Um of course it’s it’s great if you can get someone who has solid experience that you can benefit from. But I just, I feel like we really give that a little bit too much weight. Um okay,

[00:27:08.24] spk_0:
let’s talk a little about some diversity and equity in the, in the job description. Uh, you know, there’s there’s there’s a focus now on, you know, less traditional education, but, but life experience being enormously valuable and equivalent to formal education? How do we how do we convey that? And also, you know, how do we encourage communities of color, underrepresented folks, you know, to apply for what may look like an all white organization?

[00:30:54.24] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a really, really good question. Really good question. Um I always like to see um an affirmative statement in that regard. Um you know, in in the job advertisement for sure. You can also put it on the application something to the extent that you you know, you your organization really values inclusion and that people from all backgrounds are very welcome to apply. And so this gives essentially um you know, this is a signal to folks from different backgrounds that they’re welcome there, you know, that they’re welcome to apply. So that’s I think one thing that can be very helpful. Um and I think, yeah, you know this this idea that life experience has real value as well is certainly true. Um It depends on the obviously to the position that you’re hiring for. But if you think carefully about the qualities, this is another piece actually. That’s really important. If you think about the qualities that are required when you’re doing the job? Like the the patterning that’s involved when you’re doing the job. For example, does the job require a lot of research? Um Does your job require a lot of follow through or does the job require you to sort of sort through bureaucracy quickly and find a solution to things, right? Which is a little different than follow through. It’s like kind of the other end, does it require that you be fast on your feet and be able to kind of speak to people that may be comfortable speaking to people that you don’t know. Um and and be asked questions that you’re not going to know ahead of time, those kinds of things or is it more of a position where you know, you’re um ensuring um that the organization doesn’t take too many risks that it you know, that it doesn’t fix what’s not broken, you know, like accounting for example, you know, might be more in that realm, you know, these are these are ways of behaving in jobs that are actually um we are wired to to act in different ways just by virtue of who we are and everybody is wired a little bit differently in terms of how they do their job when they’re striving. And I’m sort of giving you some examples of of different kinds of patterning. So um it can be very helpful to also put that in the job description and there are some assessments that also will help that can really help you be able to measure things like that, but just to think carefully through that right? Like and that also will attract, you know, for example, if the job requires a lot of follow through if it’s really a process or repeating process that you’re asking someone to manage. You know, you want to put that kind of language into your advertising and into the, you know, into the job description so that you attract people that have that quality. Um And of course that has nothing to do with education or experience necessarily. It’s more how people are wired to work. If that makes sense. As we become more aware of that. We also tend to get a wider diversity of folks applying because it has nothing to do with, you know, um with any kind of physically born attributes like gender or race or ethnicity. Does that make sense?

[00:31:27.54] spk_0:
Yeah. Um Well, you know, it also raises the question of um salary ranges for for equity. There’s there’s there’s a lot of concerned that not putting a salary in uh salary range um discourages folks or disadvantage is folks who might end up being offered a lower salary because because of their background, you know, because of their their skin color or their background. Yeah, putting a salary range in you like that as well.

[00:33:14.74] spk_1:
I do like to see that. Yeah, I definitely like to see that. I think that that does create um that does create more equity. It’s not, you know, it’s not to say that you’re going to pay everybody the same because you’re not um And pay, Yeah. And pay, you know, pay needs to be very much accorded to value, right? The value that’s being created in the position. Um So I think it’s totally fair game. You know, to pay fundraisers potentially more than you might pay somebody else. Um, you know, that’s, I think totally reasonable, but where the, where the equity thing comes into play. And I have seen this where organizations have not posted salary ranges and they will, they will get an applicant in this honestly, particularly well. I think it happens with race and gender certainly happens with gender. You know, they’ll get somebody. And I remember an executive director saying to me, man, I think she’s, you know, she’s given us writing examples and she’s going to be the communications manager and I can get her for $15,000 less than the guy who left. And he jumped on that. And there was no salary range posted, you know, and now that, you know, especially the nonprofit sector, it takes a long time Right to make up $15,000 cap like that. She’ll have to jump organizations to do it. Um, and if they’re, if they’re bringing the value right, then it’s worth the investment in that person. And it’s worth, it’s worth it really, is it is worth it to be equitable because that means she won’t have to jump right to actually meet the value that she’s creating.

[00:33:29.64] spk_0:
She probably knows that people know if they’re being lowballed too. I think, I think people have a sense of that. And you know, it’s just sometimes,

[00:33:55.14] spk_1:
and sometimes not, you know, especially young people, you know, and I don’t know sometimes, and sometimes I think especially if you’ve been trapped in in low salary bands which you know, I think my people of color and women have been for a long time. You don’t necessarily, you know, it’s just tricky. It’s just really tricky.

[00:33:57.24] spk_0:
You think people don’t generally know then that there

[00:34:14.94] spk_1:
I don’t think that they yeah, that they’re being undervalued. No. And it’s sort of the sense of like I’ve been undervalued for so long that you don’t and on some level you don’t you don’t necessarily, you know, it feels normal I guess.

[00:34:21.84] spk_0:
You know that we have what you started right? The normalizing of of of pay disparity.

[00:34:24.18] spk_1:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean I think it has been normalized

[00:34:34.04] spk_0:
maybe you know, maybe I was projecting my own. I mean I I have a good sense of what I’d be worth, not that I want employment. You know, we’ve talked about that you made that clear. I’m not

[00:34:41.74] spk_1:
right. Yeah. Yeah. I know. But I imagine you do have a good sense of what you’re worth, but I’ve done in the past

[00:34:46.73] spk_0:
But I’m also a white guy who’s 60 years old. So you know, I know what my value is to clients as well as to potential employee employers, but only the former is

[00:34:59.31] spk_1:

[00:35:24.64] spk_0:
Alright let’s let’s go to some on boarding besides you know we uh we said that the job description is sort of an entree to on boarding as you’re as you’re exposing, socializing, inculcating people too important in the organization and where it’s headed. But what, what’s more more formal on boarding do you like to see in? Yeah six months is on boarding? six months. Is it six

[00:36:01.93] spk_1:
weeks? Oh man, it’s so nice if it could be six months, you know, if that’s unusual I would say. Um there was a, there was a company in the Research Triangle Park. It was a startup pharma company that has now been brought up by some huge thing. But they were so intentional in their on boarding that they literally, they didn’t hire anybody and give them a job. They completely hired based on cultural aspects that we’ve been talking about and then they spent six months in kind of the university of the, of the company just, you know, just like immersing them in the culture and the values of the organization. And then at the end of six months they evaluated where they should go in terms of a job

[00:36:23.93] spk_0:
that’s, that sounds extraordinary, valuable. Extraordinarily valuable but very not practical

[00:36:26.18] spk_1:
for non small non profit. No, but they created huge value,

[00:36:31.23] spk_0:
huge value.

[00:38:47.92] spk_1:
Absolutely. Yeah. And it was reflected in their market value as well and what they mean just the quality of what the, the work that they were doing. So that’s obviously like way gold standards, we’re not gonna be able to do that and most probably any nonprofit. But um, so it gives you a sense though of really how important it is and that it certainly should be more than just throwing the employee manual down on the desk if you have one, that’s not enough. Right. That is, that is really not enough. First is, do you have an employee manual? Many nonprofits don’t. So that’s kind of a whole nother topic, but it’s, it’s very nice to have your processes, your procedures, you know, your policies written down in some shape or form so that, you know, you’re starting to some assurances around equity and treating people fairly right. That is, that is important. And that is something. So let’s say that you do have that, that’s something to spend some time with the person with. Not just ask them to read it and sign it, but to actually walk through it and talk to them about what does that mean on a day to day basis? What do these things mean for us? The other thing I really love, um, for there to be and you can plan this over several weeks. It doesn’t have to be like all in the first day, but taking the time to really make the introductions for a new employee. Like it’s great if you know what? There are one or two board members who are willing to serve on kind of the on boarding committee, so to speak. You know, maybe this is part of your governance committee, something that they do where they get to meet members of the board and understand that there is a board, there is a governance board and you know, have some personal, a little bit of personal interaction with a couple of board members can be very inspirational right from, you know, then they can talk about what drew them to the organization, why they volunteer their um, meeting volunteers is another one. If your organization has volunteers certainly needing the staff right? Taking the time for that person to spend a few minutes with with um, each staff member is at all feasible. Is it is another really great way for people to start to get comfortable, right? Because then you, you have a name with the email and that kind of thing.

[00:40:44.51] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two, it’s time to register for 22 N. T. C. You heard AMY sample ward talk about the conference last week on the show. I’m not sure, I’m not sure that the biggest feature is 180 Workshops that you’ll get the video links to, you know, that you can, that you can, if you can consume that much. I think she said the record was 50 some last year that that somebody watched. I’m not sure that’s, I’m not sure that’s the biggest feature that’s big, you know, 180 different topics to choose from. All smart speakers. You know, that’s why this is the only conference that I affiliate with On nonprofit radio I’ll be capturing 25 or 30 different interviews from the conference speakers. But you know, it’s more the it’s the vibe. It’s the the inclusivity, the planning that they do that make, it’s not just their planning because you could do planning and it could still suck but it’s a planning that makes it fun. It’s a it’s a lively place. I’m looking forward to next year’s which will be back in person. But even virtual they put a lot of thought they’re very intentional about the feel the vibe of non profit technology conference. So I recommend it March 23 – 25. You register at 10:10.org if you want to see what people are talking about. Of course there’s the hashtag 22 N. T. C. I recommend it. I hope you’ll be there. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time

[00:40:48.45] spk_1:
for get

[00:41:11.11] spk_0:
off the recruitment merry, go round with terry Beckman and probably better done one on one or maybe two on one and this is the staff. Okay, everybody introduce yourself to the new employee. Okay, new employee, tell us about yourself. Okay everybody sign off now you know, go back it’s all done in an hour. You know, you don’t get to know, you don’t get to know folks that way, especially in a in a virtual workspace.

[00:41:16.41] spk_1:
Especially in a virtual workspace. Right?

[00:41:18.72] spk_0:
But even so you know, you want one on one. You want one on one or maybe two on one.

[00:41:23.35] spk_1:
Yeah, we’re starting to build relationships, right? Yeah.

[00:41:27.78] spk_0:
You live what, what, what do you have family? What? You know what movies? You know, what do you love music? You know, what do you do when you’re not with us? Yeah.

[00:41:38.61] spk_1:
All of that. Yeah. But what about the idea of real exchange?

[00:41:42.07] spk_0:
I’m sorry, what

[00:41:42.97] spk_1:
I said there can be a real exchange.

[00:41:54.11] spk_0:
Yeah, for sure. Right? Spend an hour getting to know somebody. Yeah. Um what about the idea of like an onboarding buddy? Maybe not so much a mentor, but somebody that, so I have one person I can ask. How do we do that? Well how do I get access to the shared documents? You know, I feel stupid. But you know, I can’t get the wifi to work on my company laptop or you know, whatever.

[00:42:06.50] spk_1:
Right? Yeah. Somebody that can point you point the new person in the right direction.

[00:42:10.62] spk_0:

[00:42:37.80] spk_1:
I was, that was the next thing I was gonna say is to have like an an on boarding buddy who’s who’s willing to do that. And that can be a really nice function that can rotate right around the organization and anybody at any level can do that. Right? So it’s a, it’s a really nice way also of just kind of leveling the field in a way that everybody can have a role in in bringing on new people, which is really, you know, very nice and, and helps, I think in, in just continuing to create that, the stronger bonds across your team,

[00:42:46.20] spk_0:
anything else we should be talking about onboarding before we move to keeping people.

[00:44:31.69] spk_1:
Um, I would say that that may be the most important thing is to have, you know, think through the on boarding process, I think we’ve given folks some really good ideas, um, but to think through it and write it down so that it becomes an actual process in your process, you know, um and then it’ll then it’s much more likely to actually get done, so right down the steps, the timing on it, how long the onboarding process will last, Maybe it’s a couple of weeks, you know, and then the cadence of the different things like every couple of days or whatever. There are different meetings that this person is exposed to. Um the last piece probably tony that I would say and, and this bleeds into the next topic is um, with their supervisor to set some really clear goals for their 1st 90 days, so that, you know, there’s no misunderstanding the employee knows where to focus and um there’s no miscommunication that the supervisor, well you may be disappointed, but there’s a much higher chance of success if you’re both on the same page around what you, you know, what, what do you expect from this person in their 1st 90 days and then at 90 days, talk about it, right? So, You know, and it’s, it’s really nice actually to even have little check ins right? You say even 30 days around those goals, every you know, so that if the person is having trouble or they’re not quite focused, right? Or they have questions around those goals, they have a chance to ask you and that can just provide, you know, a really smooth um kind of, you’re really kind of greasing the skids for that person’s success coming

[00:44:44.19] spk_0:
in. It’s also scheduled devoted time with the, with the new supervisor, which should be at least monthly, I would say. Maybe maybe every other week.

[00:45:16.79] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely, it depends. I think a little on your structure and hopefully if you’re a manager, you have a schedule of one on ones not, you know, I shouldn’t assume that because I’m always surprised that people are not meeting one on one with people that report to them, but I am, this is, I’m assuming a little bit that you have a schedule for doing that right? Maybe it’s every other week. Um yeah, I like that cadence myself. Um, but this, this would be um kind of extra meetings or maybe a little bit longer of a meeting monthly to really focus in on those goals.

[00:45:41.09] spk_0:
Um Yeah, very good, excellent advice. Um seeing the onboarding and retaining on boarding. Okay. We started to bleed into uh keeping, yeah, keeping your good folks.

[00:47:02.18] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great topic. I think, you know, keeping good people is all about your relationship with them, you know, um, and their alignment with your vision of where you want to take the organization. So, you know, if you, if you’re clear about the vision and you know, even if you’re not the executive director and you’re the supervisor, you know, you still need to have a vision for your team, right? Even if somebody else is setting the bigger vision, you want to have a vision for your team. Um, and you know, depending on what it is, maybe it’s, you know, we’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna have, you know, we’re, we have, we have great customer client satisfaction, Right? And we respond to clients, we want to consistently respond to clients within 24 hours or you know, whatever it is. You know, if you, you have kind of a vision and standards for your team, that’s really important to develop in your own mind and then to be able to share that clearly right with your team. Um, and then it’s, it’s all about developing and supporting the people that are working for you to meet those bigger goals. Um, and I think that those are, that is why one on one meetings are important so that you really understand what it is. They need to be successful in meeting the goals. Um, and and being able to get them the resources they need to do that work

[00:47:19.18] spk_0:
resources including professional development budget, right?

[00:47:22.71] spk_1:

[00:47:23.41] spk_0:
want to sponsor? You want to be supporting your folks for classes conferences. I don’t know, certifications.

[00:48:10.47] spk_1:
So they keep learning. Yeah. And, and understanding to what are their goals? What are their professional development goals? You know, maybe would they do they aspire to become a manager one day or an executive director one day, um, and, and encouraging that? Right? So that we’re not, you know, then we’re then we’re actually getting off the merry go round, right, when we were starting to develop actually, a pipeline of folks within the organization that want to grow up in the organization. That, you know, want to have bigger roles and um, creating a pathway for them to be able to do that, you know, is that’s really the ultimate,

[00:48:45.27] spk_0:
it’s a, it’s investment in the, in the person. It shows that there’s promise, uh, there’s a future for the person in the organization, make, you know, these things all make it less likely that they’ll leave. I mean, they may still leave, but if they, if they, if they feel supported, they see a future in the organization for them for their own growth, both in responsibility and salary. You know, they’re, they’re less likely to leave will be explicit, you know, you want to, you want to lay that out. Not when they, when they say, you know, then they give the two weeks notice you you know right at the secret plan but

[00:48:53.62] spk_1:
you don’t know the secret.

[00:49:05.97] spk_0:
Yeah there’s a growth development plan. You’re gonna miss out on all this. Yeah right. That’s not the time. Um At what point maybe maybe I’m you know you’re stuck with a lackluster host. I’m sorry maybe this is going back to on boarding. But

[00:49:09.97] spk_1:
that’s the point

[00:49:10.94] spk_0:
at what point should you or should should there be should there be a formal point at which we say yes, this relationship is working? No, this relationship is not working. Yeah. That should that should there be a formal like I think it’s a probationary period or something like that.

[00:51:12.36] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a good question. That is a really good question. And I have seen Organisations have formal like a 90 day, You know that’s it is a little bit implied in that, right? So you’re setting the expectations for this is what we expect in 90 days. Yeah. Yeah. And you can be even more explicit and you can say, you know this is this is a trial in a sense. We’re gonna, for both of us we’re gonna we’re gonna see how this goes in 90 days and then we’ll evaluate, I mean you’re kind of doing that right? Anyway um you know, so there’s a couple of questions that kind of come to my mind is from that like so what if they’re not meeting, You know what if they’re not meeting their goals in 90 days and I think, you know, if if you’ve been meeting with them monthly and you’ve been talking about it and you’re giving them the support they need, but you’re sort of sensing like, mm mm mm mm they’re not able to do this like they’re not fully engaged or they’re distracted for some reason. You know, it’s whatever is going on. Um, you know, you’re, what’s really good is you’re having the opportunity to regularly have open honest conversations about it. And then when you get to the 90 days, if there’s really some clear gaps you know, I think that’s an opportunity for, um, you know, a more honest conversation that maybe, you know, maybe this isn’t the right fit. Um, and, and they may, They probably will also sense that, right. They may sense that also at 90 days, maybe this isn’t really the right fit for me. Um,

[00:51:16.76] spk_0:
plead where they plead though, I can do better. Give me another 90 days. I I swear I can do better

[00:51:22.14] spk_1:

[00:51:37.66] spk_0:
Any, without any concrete reason why they didn’t, like, you know, if there was illness, you know, there was something in the family, it was a crisis, you know, putting that aside, there was no real reason why they didn’t they didn’t measure up in the 90 days, they’re pleading for another 90, right? Well, I need the job. I can do it

[00:53:41.55] spk_1:
Right? I think another 90 is probably too long. You know, if you were really in that situation because that then puts you at six months with somebody who may not work out. Um of course it depends on the situation and you’ll want at that point, you know, you’ll want to be talking to other professionals about that situation, right? So if you have an HR person in your team, you want to be talking to them. Um if you don’t have an HR person, you want to be talking to the executive director um the best um executive directors honestly, or the best organizations have very solid relationships with employment attorneys so that, you know what the laws are in your state doesn’t mean that you have to do anything in particular necessarily. But if you do move towards potentially terminating somebody, you wanna, you know, you want to know what, what the rules of the road around that are right before you enter into those waters. That is very important. Um for especially for um this is also, you know, a lesson that is a very painful one for people to learn. You know, if you’re if you’re hiring at a senior level, right? So if you’re aboard hiring an executive director or if you have like a, you know, a chief operating officer or Chief HR marketing marketing person, yeah, Director of Development, anybody at that level. You know, when they come on, you’re gonna want to have um, agreements around um, you know, non um, that they’re not going to speak badly about the organization when they leave and that the, and that they’re not going to take sensitive information out of the organization, essentially. So that should be part of the agreement that they signed when they’re hired. Um,

[00:53:47.22] spk_0:

[00:53:48.75] spk_1:
when they leave and they’re unhappy, that inevitably happen. Well, not inevitably, but that can often happen that they’re kind of trashing the organization. They’re going to donors saying bad things like you want all of that to be an agreement up front that they are not allowed to do that. And it’s a binding legal agreement that you can have a lawyer read a letter if they start doing stuff

[00:54:10.74] spk_0:
like that. Especially I haven’t thought about that. But especially talking to donors, right? Maybe talking to board

[00:54:19.54] spk_1:
members. Yes. Yes.

[00:54:24.64] spk_0:
I guess volunteers could, you know, volunteers could be just as serious. Yeah, Bad mouthing.

[00:55:47.54] spk_1:
Bad mouth generally no bad mouthing. Like, and it’s mutual. So the organization doesn’t bad mouth the employee that’s leaving and the employee doesn’t bad mouth the organization, it goes both ways. Um, so that’s, yeah, that’s important to standardize, especially when you’re hiring at a higher level, you know, for, for other levels. It may be not less necessary. I mean, you can just, you have to sort of evaluate that right across the organizational structure. Um, but you still obviously, you want to, you know, be aware of what the laws are in your state and um guidance from an attorney around how to handle terminations if it comes to that. But I think, you know, if, and again it really so depends on the situation, but if you get to 90 days and you feel like this isn’t really a good fit, you know? Um I would, you know, and somebody is wanting more time and you know, so you have to use your judgment around that too, right? Do I want to give them another month? I wouldn’t go more than 30 days, though right before you seriously evaluate again and you would want to be very clear about what you’d want to see change right in that period of time. And if it doesn’t, if it doesn’t change, then, you know, then it’s probably time to um to let them go. Um But you know,

[00:55:49.84] spk_0:
well then we’re back where we started with uh

[00:55:52.94] spk_1:
yeah, we

[00:55:53.67] spk_0:
are back where we started. Don’t don’t don’t stress assess.

[00:56:30.43] spk_1:
Yes. Yeah. And hopefully, hopefully you’ve gone through a process where, you know, you developed a pretty strong pool of applicants, so maybe some of them are around um still, but if not, then you go through the process again. Um I, you know, I like the the adage hire slow fire fast. Um I just I think that that’s wise, you know, to take your time to get the right people and if it gets to a point where it’s not the right person, then you make that decision quickly.

[00:56:58.63] spk_0:
You also have to put ego aside that you know, maybe you that that it appears you made a bad hire if the person goes after three months or four months, you know, that that reflects that poorly on on the ceo, on the hiring buddy, if there was, you know, whoever was involved in the process of board members involved, that we all made a bad choice, well, okay, maybe we did, but but maybe we didn’t, you know, remember and in the interviews and the application of the person looked like the right person. So we have to put ego aside I guess. Yeah,

[00:57:59.63] spk_1:
very much so, you know, and I think any time that someone either voluntarily or involuntarily leaves the organization, you know, it’s never like one person’s fault, so to speak, you know, because there’s just too many interactions and too many. It’s just complicated, right? There’s way too much that goes into that mix. But I think it’s also really helpful when something, you know, like that happens, especially if it’s somewhat unexpected is to evaluate, you know, and especially if it was like a 90 day point evaluate. Well, let’s look at our process, you know, what’s missing, what went well, what did we miss, what would we do different, you know, what would we want to do differently and and do that as a team. Um, and I can feel, you know, I think as a leader it can feel scary to do that because you sort of, you know it feels like you’re being somewhat vulnerable to talk

[00:58:02.35] spk_0:
about what

[00:58:03.47] spk_1:
didn’t work.

[00:58:16.32] spk_0:
It’s introspective thought, you know, what what did we do wrong? What could we do better? What maybe some of my you know, maybe my contributions weren’t, maybe the goals were not Uh maybe the 90 day goals were not fair or although clear, I would hope that you’re clear that you would hope that you would figure that out in the 90 days and assess, you know? Yeah. Yeah, introspection is is a big challenge. It’s hard.

[00:58:31.44] spk_1:
Yeah. But it’s so good.

[00:58:33.67] spk_0:
It is vulnerable, it makes you

[00:59:07.02] spk_1:
Vulners, you’re right. It does make you vulnerable. It doesn’t take long. That’s the other thing. I mean you can really do a good evaluation in 30 or 45 minutes if that’s what you’re focused on with your team. And the insights from it are just invaluable. You know, just invaluable and this, you know, you want to create an environment where this is not about blaming people. It’s totally not about that, it’s really about looking at the process and what could we have done better. Not tell you, I mean that’s what you get out of that is worth. You know, tens of thousands of dollars of some consultant telling you it really is.

[00:59:33.32] spk_0:
Okay, okay, so leave us with some closing thoughts uh terry. What about the process, overall importance of, of assessment, etcetera. You know, leave us, we just fired somebody, you know, so leave us leave us in an uplift. We just fired somebody. So leave us in an uplifting spot.

[01:00:59.81] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah, So you just fired somebody that’s, oh man, it’s always you and I you and I know it’s a tough, tough place to be in. Um but I think um you know, if you’ve gotten to the point where you’ve had to to take that kind of action, then one door closes and another always opens, always always opens and what you’re looking for. Like with actually every single thing that we talked about today, you’re really looking at how can you unleash the potential of your organization, right? How can you unleash the potential of your vision, That’s what you’re doing, that’s what all of this is about, right? It’s it’s taking methodical intentional steps to unleash that potential and sometimes letting somebody go, it actually unleashes their potential to because they may honestly be in the wrong position, right? Like if it’s not working for you for the organization, it probably isn’t working for them either if they’re honest about it. Um So it’s all good. You know, I think the key is to be is to not panic to not react to really be intentional and to be thinking about some of these questions that you know, we’ve come up with Tony and you know, how how can you make the organization the best that it can be and really just get a, you know, a team that is working together like a fine oiled machine.

[01:01:19.51] spk_0:
Terry Beckman outstanding. Thank you. The company high goal H I G O L. Remember high impact growth oriented leaders, high gold dot C. O. And terry is at Terry Beckman. That’s Terri with an I and one are, thank you very much. Terry.

[01:01:20.80] spk_1:
Terrific. Thank you tony It’s such a pleasure to be with you today.

[01:02:19.81] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks for sharing your good ideas. Thank you very much. Next week. I’m working diligently on that. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Responsive by turning to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95 go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for January 31, 2022: The 40 Laws Of Nonprofit Impact

Derik Timmerman: The 40 Laws Of Nonprofit Impact

We can’t hit all of them, but that’s the title of Derik Timmerman’s book. He’s got advice like “give to gain,” “hire with ruthless selectivity,” “win while you’re sleeping,” and “eat last and get dirty.” We’ll talk about these and other ideas. Derik is the founder of Sparrow Nonprofit Solutions.



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[00:00:10.04] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and

[00:01:59.04] spk_1:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of paragon on my Asus if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show The 40 laws of nonprofit impact, we can’t hit them all. But that’s the title of Derek Timmermans book. He’s got advice like give to gain higher with ruthless selectivity win while you’re sleeping and eat last and get dirty. We’ll talk about these and other ideas. His company is Sparrow nonprofit solutions On Tony’s take two 50% off planned giving accelerator ends next week. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. It’s a pleasure to debut on nonprofit radio Derek Timmerman, he is founder of Sparrow nonprofit Solutions, a nationwide consulting firm helping nonprofits maximize their world changing impact. Before Sparrow he was a management consultant at Mckinsey and Company and the U. S. Army intelligence officer with two combat deployments to Iraq. The company is at Sparrow N. S. That’s Sparrow november. Sierra in military talk dot com. Sparrow N. S dot com. Derek Timmerman. Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:01.69] spk_2:
tony it’s a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:06.84] spk_1:
It’s my pleasure to have you. Thank you and thank you for your

[00:02:08.64] spk_2:
service. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. Absolutely.

[00:02:11.03] spk_1:
You’re one of our West point alumni as well

[00:02:14.58] spk_2:
that’s right that’s right Yeah so any navy fans out there? I’m sorry about that. But uh,

[00:02:22.44] spk_1:
Um, yeah, I’ve been there. I have a nephew who graduated there. I think he was 94. Okay, 90 for the year to score something. You have a little, a little jingle that goes with every year. I think he was like

[00:02:34.97] spk_2:
we do, Yeah. And an impressive that you know that, so mine is uh, pride and all we do 2002. We were actually the bicentennial class. So the thing was founded in 18 02. So they called us the golden Children all the way through that because it was celebrated that we were the 2/100 anniversary class of, of West Point. So Pride and all we do. 02.

[00:03:05.14] spk_1:
Okay, outstanding. And you just made me realize my, my nephew is much younger than that. So it ended with a four, I would say 94. It was probably 2,004,000. So what I was wearing, he’s, he’s much younger than you and

[00:03:10.74] spk_2:
me, which, which means, which means he might have been there when I was there and I as a, as a senior or junior, I might have given him a hard time. So apologies if he’s listening and if, if I, if I made him do push ups or something, I don’t know.

[00:03:27.94] spk_1:
All right. We’ll shout him out. Jacob, Jacob Weber. Okay. Yeah. No, I, I, and I witnessed, what are the, uh, I witnessed some of the the rehearsals for a day a day is the very first day right acceptance or a day. Is that the very first day that the new cadets, the first year

[00:04:04.34] spk_2:
cadets register now? You’re really stretching my the other day reception day. That’s what it is. Yeah, blocked it out. It’s a memory that you know, honestly tony It’s a difficult thing to dredge up my friends. So yeah, but our day reception day that was a significant emotional event for sure. Okay.

[00:04:05.72] spk_1:
And so from the, from Mckinsey and the and the and the United States Army, why sparrow nonprofit services Sparrows to me seems so frail. Uh they don’t have long life spans. Why why set me straight? Why is it sparrow nonprofit

[00:05:15.04] spk_2:
service? Yeah, I think it’s a great question. I love this question. Uh, so I I’m a person of faith. My faith commitments are very, very important to me. And there is a biblical passage. Uh, that goes something like uh you are worth more than many sparrows kind of talking about the fact that um our creator sees everything every part of his creation including you know the smallest tiniest sparrow and we as people are worth more than many sparrows. So I wanted to give nonprofit leaders sort of that sense uh in all the work that I do uh that they’re seen their valued, they’re not alone and they have worth because it’s as your listeners, I’m sure know who our nonprofit leaders, it can be, it can be a lonely thing. So that’s why the name Sparrow is to bake that into the heart of everything that we are into.

[00:05:21.04] spk_1:
Alright, thanks. And they are our listeners. Derek, please our listeners. And and I cited the company were incorrectly Sparrow nonprofit solutions.

[00:05:30.39] spk_2:
It’s not

[00:05:31.41] spk_1:
mere services, services, any Schmo can provide services. Sparrow. Sparrow provides solutions. So,

[00:05:39.34] spk_2:
alright, let’s let’s talk about

[00:06:02.84] spk_1:
The book. The 40 laws of nonprofit impact. I’ve got, I’ve got a bunch that I would like to talk about, but I don’t know. I’m feeling generous. I’m feeling a little anarchic today. So I’m gonna, and listeners will know that this is outside what’s what’s typical. I’m gonna throw it to you first. You you pick a you pick a law, You have 40 laws? Yes. The 40 laws were broken down into different categories. You you pick a favorite law of yours. What’s the one you like to talk about

[00:08:54.54] spk_2:
first. Oh my goodness. You’re asking me to pick one of my favorite Children. And this is, this is difficult, but okay, then forget it. I’ll go for it. I I got, I got one. Um, so the one that I find raises the most eyebrows with nonprofit leaders that I speak with and maybe provokes the most reflection and thought on their part. So that’s fun when, when I can have that impact is law number to define the win. Um, really what that’s all about is uh, gently challenging nonprofit leaders to identify what is the fundamental unit of impact for their non profit organization. So a lot of words there, but let me, let me sort of share a simple example if, if I was on my high school football team, I’m not a big guy. So there was a time when I wanted to gain weight to be on the football team, If that was my goal to gain weight, the fundamental unit of impact would be what? £1? A single pound. Right? So that’s the number of units I’m trying to replicate and grow in my nonprofit, um, similar, you know, if, if I’m at this stage in my life and I might have one or two lbs to lose the fundamental unit of impact would be losing a pound. So that’s, that’s kind of the idea is that within your nonprofit, what is that unit? That is the thing that defines the win. So it’s, it’s incredible to me how many nonprofits go through their day to day operations not knowing that or having a vague sense of a general mission without having that unit of impact firmly in mind. But once they select it, They’re able to say a vision that they want to cast for the next 3-5 years. So let’s say that you and I Tony I’m in Denver and Love Nature trails. Let’s say that you and I together wanted to found a nonprofit to preserve public nature trails in the Denver area. The unit of impact would be one mile of nature trail that we keep clean, pristine, uh, keep it, you know, preserved. Um, from week to week we go out on the trail and that’s the mile that we, that we preserve. Um, well, let’s say we get a bunch of volunteers to help us, uh, and set a goal of five years from now. We want to have 1000 pristine clean public nature trails in the Denver area that are cleaned. Uh, that’s our pile of units of impact that we want to have. We just cast a vision for our nonprofit that we can gear the whole organization to the board, the staff, the volunteers, everybody has that vision of 1000 miles of public nature trail there, Derek, I’m a

[00:08:57.70] spk_1:
Little, I’m concerned you’re already backpedaling because the book posits 2500

[00:09:02.27] spk_2:
miles. I know

[00:09:04.03] spk_1:
this hypothetical nature nature trail preserves, preservation, nonprofit. Now you’re now you’re, you’re back down to only 1000. What happened to 2500 goal?

[00:09:13.03] spk_2:
Well, so that’s, I’m in Denver now in the book, it’s in north and south Carolina. So there’s more trails in the whole two states to work with. But yeah, I think around Denver there’s 1000. But yeah, thank you for catching me on that though. You’re, I can tell you’re a close reader. I read the book. I read that and I appreciate it. That’s all

[00:09:33.19] spk_1:
right. We’ll stick with 1000 will be modest. It’s, it’s the start of 1000 miles in the first year

[00:09:41.54] spk_2:
deal deal. Yeah, but that’s, that’s what I throw out is, is defining a win and challenging nonprofit leaders to really define that fundamental unit of impact and what’s the pile of units that they want to achieve in 3-5 years.

[00:10:25.84] spk_1:
And that leads beautifully. The one that I would like to talk about, which is the law number three, which is, who already know who you are when you’re winning. Which to me sounds, I mean it’s, it’s, uh, well, not to me, it sounds like, but it’s your, you say it, it’s, it’s, it’s the values. What do you, what does, what does your, what does your organization stand for? Uh, you know, at the core, aside from what it wants to do, what does it stand for And you know, this stuff off the top of that, you know, you don’t need to refer to your encyclopedia of the 40 laws. You know, this, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna stump you, I’m not out to stump you and uh, you wrote a book, come on.

[00:13:26.74] spk_2:
You know, I’m 100% with you. And um, what I, what I don’t say clearly in the book, but what it is worth mentioning here is these first four chapters, these first four laws or what I call the four questions and whenever I work with nonprofits kind of in a consultative basis, um, I love to kind of have this be one of the early conversations I have with them. And it’s a little bit of a different way of getting at the sort of age old in some ways tired and boring mission vision values strategy that we always hear about. I mean I came into my work with nonprofits wanting to sort of breathe some life some new life into those four things because it’s, it is, it’s easy to kind of have our sort of eyes roll back and just kind of get that glassy eyed look when the old mission vision values strategy conversation comes up. But the four questions that I throw out there are, why do you exist? What is winning? Who are you when you’re winning And how do you win? And that’s answering those. It gets to the right destination in a bit of a different way. In a way that involves people and results in an answer frankly that that’s different than just having the, the normal way that you might go about finding out what your mission vision values strategy are. The third question. Who are you when you’re winning is actually a way to get out the values of your organization and asking it in a who based way. It really unlocks some interesting thinking when I work with nonprofits. Um, one workshop that I love to do is actually Having six sticky flip charts posted around the wall of a room and asking the nonprofit to write down Name three men and three women in your organization could be volunteers, could be founders, could be staff write their name at the top of each one of the flip charts. So you’ve got these six flip charts around the room. Uh, Susan’s name goes on the top of one, jerry’s name goes to the top of the second and on around the room. And then everybody who’s participating in the workshop goes around the room with a flip chart marker and writes down everything they can name about the attributes of those people. What is it about them that makes them such an incredible embodiment of the nonprofit and by the end of the exercise, everyone’s crying. Everyone’s excited. Everyone’s thrilled about how great this organization is. But what’s what’s truly amazing is what what each of those words represents is a clue as to the values of the organization. Those words are who the organization is when it’s winning. And from those you can distill out what are the 5-7 Values of the organization? Having looked at the people of the organization 1st And then developing a check question for each, for each person to ask in a first person away for a moment to moment. AM I living out each one of these 5-7 values.

[00:13:47.34] spk_1:
I love this idea. That idea of starting with the people that embody the organization then what is it about those people? And then you find the commonalities across those. You said you do it with six. Uh, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s great insight.

[00:14:19.14] spk_2:
I like that. And it really, I mean it’s, it’s something I stumbled upon while working at a church, uh, some time ago. And what’s, what’s really neat about it is it avoids the trap of values that so many nonprofits fall into that, you know, they, they think about what’s gonna look good on a plaque or what’s gonna look good in the lobby or what’s gonna impress donors. What you’re actually doing is working from the bottom up and what you’re actually doing and who you actually are as an organization when you’re at your best and make and letting, letting the people doing the work as you say, um, speak to you about what the values really are.

[00:14:25.54] spk_1:
Now can those six people be in the room like, so can I go to my own flip chart and vote for myself and say charming, brilliant, funny. You know, can I vote for myself? My own my own flip chart

[00:14:37.84] spk_2:
only. You tony would ask a question like that. Of course. Yeah. Maybe we’d limited to three words on your own chart, but why not? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:14:48.64] spk_1:
And I can I can suggest adjectives for others to put onto my charger?

[00:14:53.09] spk_2:
Yes. Yes. Not happy about the adjectives that others use. but, but yes, it’s, it’s honesty. As long as honesty is in the room totally. Fair game.

[00:16:42.44] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah. But I’d like to lobby for my flip chart to be the longest and most effusive. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. You’re 2022 communications plan lots of projects in there. Lots of writing. Which of those writing projects can you outsource to free up staff time to devote to the work that can’t be outsourced? Is your communications team too small for all they have to produce. Do they seem overworked and under resourced pity, pity their communications team. You can get them help. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to the 40 laws of nonprofit impact. You just have to get the book because we can’t talk about all 40 laws of nonprofit impacts. Not possible. We’re gonna skip around a little bit. So I’d like to talk about, you’re, you’re number six law give to gain, which reminds me of a, of a networking organization that I was in. In fact one of your, it’s either your footnote or one of your resources at the end of that law cites the is a book. I think I think it’s a resource you give by the, the founder of the organization. I was in Ivan Ivan Misner. Uh, the organization is business network international bien. I, I used to be in a B and I chapter in new york city. So, and he and the the uh, I guess so I suppose tagline of the organization was givers gain.

[00:17:19.24] spk_2:
I, I too am a B and I member. So I’m with you there and I am, I am even now, yeah, I’m a member of Gosh, it’s got to be one of the largest chapters in the U. S. Its 82 members. Can you imagine 82 members and a B and I chapter? Um, but for, for our listeners, um, I would say that that be and I is, is just incredible for nonprofits and they might have a deal these days about joining for free. So, uh, we can, that’s another topic. Another conversation. But yeah,

[00:17:54.34] spk_1:
just to just to put a little finer point on it if you have B. N. I. Business network and network, not networking. This network international if you have B and I chapters in your town. Uh, there is a uh, even though I’m not no longer remember, but I’ve been asked for by a couple of chapters who know me. Uh, each chapter is allowed one free nonprofit seat in its chapter. So you don’t have to pay the annual membership to join a B and I chapter. And it could be a very good resource. I, I found it very good for my business derek. You obviously find it good for your business, otherwise you wouldn’t be a member

[00:18:34.84] spk_2:
Of 100%. And the reason I recommend it to nonprofits is imagine 32 in my case, 80 individuals in your local area from all different professions, each with their own networks being a permanent week over week advocate for your nonprofit and your mission. Um, it’s almost like a ready made Salesforce marketing force, um, for, for your cause and for those nonprofits that I know that have been in B and I for three plus years, all of their volunteers, many of their donors, those who actually helped run their galas and events. A lot of that energy comes from from their B and I chapter so strongly recommended you

[00:18:52.24] spk_1:
Just did the purpose and overview portion of a weekly meeting at B&I was a member for 13 years in New York City. The only reason I left is because I moved to North Carolina. That’s the only reason. All right. So let’s talk about giving the game and, and, and I hope you’ll weave in vulnerability and

[00:21:23.54] spk_2:
generosity please. Absolutely. Yeah. So giving to gain is this idea that, um, if you, if you end up taking the approach with your non profit, not just to your beneficiaries, I think we all would say that with our nonprofit missions, we’re here to give to, you know, those who are the recipients of whatever our mission is. If we’re out to eradicate human trafficking. Um, you know, we’re are beneficiaries were giving to society by making sure that survivors are able to be restored. And uh, and that that those who are our victims are able to be pulled out. You know, of course, we’re giving to the beneficiaries of our organizations. It’s a little bit of a reach though, and maybe a bit of a new concept to think about giving to our board members, to our staff, to our volunteers, uh, to our prospective donors, to our existing donors. Everyone we interact with, um, in our organization. Um, we have the ability to do one of three things with them to either entertain, educate or empower. And those three things we can do with with every single person that we touch day in and day out. Whether it’s an email, a phone call, face to face interaction, giving needs to be the passion of every non profit leader. Um, and you mentioned vulnerability and generosity. Those are two of the main main components of how you can be a giver, vulnerability. Certainly in terms of, you know, approaching interactions in a way that, uh, that shows that you’re human. Um, I think authenticity is probably one of the most overblown, overused words. And, you know, there’s a dark side to authenticity in terms of, you know, just being a burden on everyone you come in contact with and and that’s not what we mean by vulnerability. What we mean really, actually is, is just showing that you have flaws, uh, that you’re someone who’s prone to mistakes, admitting those mistakes, showing your words and and letting the other person know that you’re human. Um, generosity. Uh, and really curiosity goes along with this as well. Is is training yourself to seek out ways to give, to look forward. You know, what is it that this person sitting across from me needs the most. I’m looking at you right now on zoom tony and I said I could see you could use some wall hangings. You know the walls behind you looking a little bare. So maybe I’ll send you something to hang on the wall here at some point. Just kidding. But

[00:21:42.54] spk_1:
I have my, I have my high, high hi tech art deco. Well not art deco, but uh, postmodern Hewlett Packard printer.

[00:21:49.68] spk_2:
It is, yeah, that, that is a, that is a nice printer back there. But, but hey, maybe maybe we could use a little bit more more on the wall. But you know what in every interaction. So there you go. Yeah.

[00:22:07.64] spk_1:
You recognize, I just tipped my camera, my screen up So that Derek could see, do you recognize that comic character?

[00:22:09.03] spk_2:
Uh, it’s a, what’s his sad, sad sam or sad. That’s beetle, that’s beetle bailey, beetle bailey. Okay, that’s assigned assigned original. Whoa.

[00:22:28.94] spk_1:
From, from mort walker. The uh, so well I’m, I’ve date myself all the time. I’m 60 years old. So I remember beetle Bailey in the comics, United States army

[00:23:15.54] spk_2:
was I know I noticed that beetle bailey. So here we go guys, this for our listeners. We, we can see here, I have a clue now of something that might be of value to tony in the future. Right. Just by looking at as well, taking a little interest, having a little curiosity. I, there may come a time here in the next month or two where here comes in the mail, a little cartoon for uh, for Tony to hang on his wall. Um, that can remind him of spare non profit solutions and keep him encouraged as he goes throughout his day. Just giving to gain, that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about is having just that little bit more curiosity than is common being that rare person who looks for ways to give and then the law of reciprocity pick kicks in where that person is. Uh, just naturally it’s the psychology of human nature is going to look for ways to give back

[00:24:04.04] spk_1:
somewhere in the book. You, you reckon you recommend. Uh, I think it’s two people a day, do something special for two people a day. And also try to uh think about how you can give something small to the people that you do interact with each day like you’re describing. You know, you don’t, you don’t need to send me any comics or I won’t reject it if you do. But, but uh, so you just, you, you got to get the book. You gotta get the book for the full breadth of the, the wisdom and the ideas. Um, and yeah, vulnerability. I, you know, too many people think vulnerability is a, is a sign of weakness. I think it’s a sign of confidence and strength that you’re, you’re confident and strong enough to to share your real self again without wearing your heart on your sleeves as you suggested, you know, and burdening people, but without not going that far. But vulnerability, I think is a sign of confidence and strength.

[00:24:24.84] spk_2:
It is, and it’s the, it’s, it taps into to the power of humor. I mean, I think one of the least mentioned and most underrated characteristics of leadership and impact for that matter is humor. Um, if you can make fun of yourself at the beginning of any talk that you give or fundraising conversation or uh, podcast that you joined, um, humor is uh, is one of the most disarming endearing things that you can do as a fundraiser and as a nonprofit leader. So vulnerability is a big part of that.

[00:25:16.94] spk_1:
I think I, I appreciate what you said about humor. Thank you. Um, I’ll leave it there. Said I believe. Well said, um, let’s talk about assembling if we could put these couple together assembling your dream team and running with achievers of character. You like the, the dream team to be uh productive. You talk about productive passion.

[00:26:16.04] spk_2:
Yes, absolutely. It’s from the very introduction. When I start to talk about talent. Uh and talent is one of the, He kind of red threads that kind of runs throughout all 40 laws of nonprofit impacts. Um, if I could wave a magic wand and wish anything on the nonprofit world today be different than the way it is. It’s that every nonprofit leader would become talent obsessed and I don’t use that word lightly. Uh you know, I one of the wonderful things about nonprofit leaders is what big hearts they have, not just for the causes that they serve, but but also for the people that are around them. Uh the flip side of that big hearted coin though is that we can unfortunately tolerate around us. Uh those whose talent profile may not be the best that would actually contribute to the advancement of our mission.

[00:26:22.10] spk_1:
Good enough. You know, you caution against making hires that are good enough,

[00:28:17.04] spk_2:
good enough hires. You got it. Yeah, I know it. When I, when I use the term talent obsessed, it is going uh more than 10 deep through a talent pool. When you put something out on indeed you see uh somebody on paper who looks like they’re good, they get in an interview, They answer some questions well and suddenly there in the nonprofit, well what you just did in in letting that person in the door without, you know, going deeper into the talent pool and doing your due diligence and giving that person a trial run of actually doing the work before they get the offer letter. Um, all of these things will greatly enhance not just your non profit in the near term, but they’re gonna impact the trajectory of your nonprofit organization way over the long term. So all the way back to your question about assembling your dream team is you’re always keeping an eye out for those people in your midst. Whether it’s just a volunteer who comes in to help with something, you see them approach their work of, you know, putting folding up the papers, putting them in the envelope, stamping them, sending them out. You’re watching. And there’s something that caught your eye while they were doing that work. The spirit that they brought to the work. The fact the way they’re interacting with the rest of your staff and the other volunteers. Just the vibe that they have their confidence. Um, you’re, you’re keeping an eye out for those kinds of talent, rock stars. And when you see that you actually make an effort to start to draw them into your dream team. This could be the case with prospective board members with major donors. Anything that might touch your nonprofit, you’re always trying to keep an eye out for who is going to be that inner circle that joins you to take this work into the future. Um,

[00:28:27.14] spk_1:
derek you when you were talking about and, and that may apply for volunteers as well. Maybe maybe moving someone from volunteer to volunteer leadership.

[00:28:31.84] spk_2:
It absolutely does

[00:28:36.17] spk_1:
clears the, what do you say the productive, those were productive passion

[00:28:42.14] spk_2:

[00:28:44.16] spk_1:
10, 10 deep in an, in an interview process. What did you mean by that?

[00:29:56.84] spk_2:
So I I think we, we nonprofit leaders can have a tendency busy as they are to give up a little bit too early or to, uh, to settle, you know, for someone who is, you know, looks good on paper and you know, let’s give them a try in the role and start paying them. And the thought is, we can always go back on that decision. Well, No, it’s, it’s not easy to uh, change someone’s life to give them a job and they get into the role and then suddenly there’s an inertia into the thing where it, it is difficult to go back on that decision. Why not take an extra month or two and go 30 deep or 50 deep into the indeed pool something I I did recently with a higher inspire nonprofit solution was that was actually create a google sheet that has multiple tabs that actually gave them real work to do that they would be doing if they came into the role in my organization. That’s before the interview. Even so I haven’t even talked to this person yet. I see the indeed resume and they’re getting a link from me to a customized google sheet for them to go through and do the actual work that they would be doing within sparrow then and only then when they’ve completed the sheet and I’ve seen that they have the grit and the intelligence and the mental equipment and uh, the, the ingenuity

[00:30:07.14] spk_1:
also the commitment,

[00:30:08.87] spk_2:
the commitment

[00:30:09.72] spk_1:
you’re asking for, you’re asking for a time commitment before you’ve even interviewed them.

[00:30:36.94] spk_2:
I can’t tell you Tony how many, I can’t tell you Tony how many people I thought were rock stars that I sent this google sheets and they never even got a third of the way through the thing. And that told me good thing. I didn’t waste my time, you know, interviewing speaking with them. You wouldn’t believe how many nonprofit leaders don’t do. This is so yeah, this this easy step of just having them do the work. And yeah, this is part of being talent obsessed. And I commend it to every nonprofit leader

[00:30:50.24] spk_1:
and you’re standing by that. Even in today’s labor constrained market where a lot of people have left. Uh, it’s harder to, it’s harder to find people. You’re, you stand by the talent obsession. Even in the current labor market,

[00:31:05.14] spk_2:
I stand by it even more so I stand by it even more. So yeah, it’s no higher is better than a bad hire and whether that’s, that takes two months or six months. Um, you get the right people into your organization. This goes for board seats by the way. Um, even more so, But yes, you take the time that you need to get the right person in the role, especially in this talent constrained environment.

[00:33:03.24] spk_1:
It’s time for tony steak too. How long has planned giving been on your to do list? I can help you get it off The 50% off planned giving accelerator. It’ll never be cheaper. It’s never, never going to be less than this. 50% off. It ends next week February 7th. You can join the february class. The class runs for six months. Your commitment is an hour a week for six months and we will launch your planned giving program together. You get 50% off. There are still some slots left. A generous donor has agreed to pay half the tuition for 10 nonprofits and there are still spots left. If you’d like to get yours, you can send me an email, tony at tony-martignetti dot com. If you want info on planned giving accelerator, that’s at planned giving accelerator dot com. Let me know you want to get planned giving off your to do list. It’s never going to be easier. I’m putting it right in your lap. I hope you’ll be with me. That is tony steak too. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the 40 laws of nonprofit impact with Derek Timmerman that that makes me think of your Law # 11, which is higher with ruthless selectivity.

[00:34:27.24] spk_2:
That’s it. Yeah. And that’s, that’s kind of the thesis of the last, you know, five ish minutes of what we’ve been discussing, um, hire your staff with ruthless selectivity. Absolutely. But that goes for, uh, for the board as well. Um, uh, it’s, it’s a regrettable feature of the nonprofit landscape these days that so many board members are brought in, um, on kind of what you’re doing us a favor type thing is please please please join our board and we desperately need, you know, people with your skills. Um, oh, you’re an accountant. Oh, we need a treasurer for our board. Please join. Um, it’s not gonna be that much of a commitment. Oh man. It drives me crazy. tony It’s got to go. The other direction is, Yeah, this is, this isn’t, this is an 18, this is a varsity team. Um, we’re not sure if you’re going to be right for the board. I like that you have an accounting background. That is something that we could use, but that means nothing to us. Uh, if if you’re not willing to put in eight hours a month of time and energy and effort and have a purple passion for, for this nonprofit’s mission. So we’ll see. Um, but, but we, we hope it works out. But, but let’s do the dance and see where this goes to see if you might be, might have what it takes to join our board. That makes all the difference.

[00:34:33.54] spk_1:
You highly value personal referrals to folks, folks that are already close to the organization recommending,

[00:35:14.24] spk_2:
Oh yeah. And I’m enthralled by these examples like Zappos who have come out and said we’re not going to do job descriptions anymore. How cool is that to say that we’re not going to go the traditional route of just putting out job descriptions. Uh, and job postings out on the internet for all to see. We know what we need and we have great people. So we’re gonna trust those people to, to spread the word about the roles that we need and, and get those people into into a situation where they can interview with us, where they can go through some scenarios to see how they do kind of in the work itself. And yeah, we’re just gonna do this by word of mouth. That’s a, it’s a cool model and it’s working for him

[00:35:40.94] spk_1:
interesting. I am not aware of that, but I could see the value. It’s um, alright, it’s groundbreaking. Good. Yeah. I like, I like people who, uh, think outside, you know, just think differently. I don’t like outside the box, but just think just think differently and, and, and try it. You know, if they don’t end up getting enough applicants to their jobs, then then they can find another way they can pivot and, and think of something else that’s, that’s not just a typical job description on, on a job board

[00:36:32.73] spk_2:
and yeah. And I know that there’s probably listeners right now thinking I’m a I’m a tiny nonprofit. It’s just me, right, It’s I’m the executive director and that’s it. So derek, I get it. But where do I even begin with this? And I would say to the, to that person, just as a way of encouragement, uh it’s gonna take a lot of effort to get those 1st 123 rock stars aligned with you. But take comfort that it gets easier, the more that you build this dream team, the easier it gets to just add that incremental next person. So put in the effort, put in the work as slow as it feels to find that one that 1st, 2nd, 3rd dream team member and you’re gonna watch it get easier as time goes on.

[00:36:51.33] spk_1:
You also have advice about firing fast, letting people go when it’s not working out, Don’t, don’t invest more, cut your losses. Move on.

[00:37:32.33] spk_2:
Yeah. This is something I learned from my Mackenzie days, honestly from my working with Fortune 500 companies. When we would do these Mackenzie surveys of C. E. O. S and C suite leaders about the biggest regret that they have in their professional life. It was moving too slowly on poor performers, uh letting that extra six months or a year or two years or more go by. Uh just hoping that things would change and feeling like, you know, putting too much stock in what professional development could achieve. I do believe strongly that that people can improve and change. But there there is a base level of capacity uh to continuously improve. And if if you don’t notice that that is their uh the best thing that you can do for your organization and your mission is to act quickly on poor hiring decisions.

[00:38:12.22] spk_1:
I think a lot of C. E. O. S. Consider that an admission and an embarrassing admission of of a mistake. If I if I fire the person too quickly then it’s obvious that I shouldn’t have hired them in the first place. And now I’m admitting that I’ve made a mistake but that goes back to vulnerability, you know checking your ego at the door uh and just being confident enough to admit that you did make a mistake.

[00:39:24.92] spk_2:
It’s the gambler’s it’s it’s it’s the age old gambler thing. I was in Vegas once. I know that surprises you Tony, I know that you don’t think of me maybe as a Vegas guy, but I’m sitting at the roulette table. There you go. Yeah I’m sitting at the roulette table and uh this guy next to me has a confident look on his face and he put some money down on on red and he loses. Uh and he puts double that amount on red and I can I can see where this story’s going, I’ve seen this movie before, I feel bad for him but he puts double on red and he loses again and with each time that he puts money on red, he doubles it and he keeps getting this worse and worse, more concerned look on his face To the point where he’s lost six times and I can tell by the look on the guy’s face, he’s about to put his kids a big chunk of his kid’s college fund on red. It’s just, yeah, it’s awful. But this is what we do when it comes to bad hires all the time and I would just say walk away from the table and, and, and, and go do something else.

[00:39:31.72] spk_1:
Do you have advice to? And uh Law # 14 About using freelancers when, when, while you’re sleeping?

[00:42:02.00] spk_2:
Yeah man, it’s, it’s so exciting to be in uh, an entrepreneurial role like spare nonprofit solutions for nonprofit leaders that are small or mid sized to be in these roles. I mean Even more so than 10 or 15 years ago, we have platforms available to us today to access uh incredibly talented, fluent English speakers in the Philippines in India, you know, any country, even in the us who are willing to do incredible work for organizations while we sleep. These are called freelancers and the the two platforms, I’ll give three actually the three platforms I use most when it comes to freelancers are fiber Up work and 99 designs And imagine in 99 designs case you need a logo, you need a a new label design for something, you need a poster or a one pager. You can go in 99 designs and start a contest and have freelancers from all over the world designers who are incredibly talented competing to win your contest. So it could be $99 it could be 1 99. But rather than go out and going out and hiring a design firm, you can have this contest where freelancers are actually competing to win, you’re giving them feedback. So they’re actually doing revisions right there. So all of these folks are working for you and then by the end of it you’ve got an incredible product that you can, that you can then take into your nonprofit work. I’ve used this in list building all the time right now as well as you and I are speaking tony I’ve got three freelancers around the world building, uh, lists with email addresses, phone numbers, prospects. Um, and, and I know that here in a day or two, I’ll be able to look at those and use those for my, my marketing efforts. That’s what I mean by b have always have something happening while you’re sleeping. Um, These freelancers could be doing great things for you for $5 an hour, maybe less. Um, and you can even pay them for the actual project itself. I do 25 cents a row for my excel spreadsheet for my google sheets that I have them fill out for, for leads. So I don’t know. I’m not sure if your listeners could, could use 25 cents a road to have a fundraising sheet to growing while you’re doing other things. But, but I found it’s, it’s incredibly helpful to my work.

[00:42:14.70] spk_1:
And what are the three sites that you use again? Five? Er, I know I’ve used that one. So Fiverr is one

[00:42:20.74] spk_2:
Driver with two Rs. So if you are are up work is the 2nd and 99 designs is the third for anything visual or involving design, 99 designs is incredible.

[00:42:50.90] spk_1:
Let’s talk about some, uh, some of your laws that are intrinsic to, to the, to the person, like unleashing your unique strengths and and avoiding that. Focus on

[00:45:07.49] spk_2:
weaknesses. Sure, yeah, this is this is so near and dear to my heart that I wasn’t Mackenzie for six years and the second three years was doing a people strategy on Mackenzie itself. So it was actually, we did it. We launched an engagement not to serve an external client, but to say we’re going to sharpen the saw within this consulting firm. So we’re gonna do a strategy on how to be the preeminent place for the world’s most incredible talent and one of the main work streams that we ended up coming up with. Um and this is all research based, is making Mackenzie a strengths based organization and I took that to heart so much that I’ve taken it everywhere. I’ve gone to work with nonprofits as well. Because the thesis is this is that all of us came up in elementary school, middle school, high school and college with this grading system and the best you can get on most assignments is what 100, right? Yeah, that’s that’s the best score you can get. And uh That was the top thing that, that we could achieve. And anything less than that was points were deducted. You lose two points here, five points. They’re 10 points there if it’s late, that’s -10 or 20 or something. But, but that’s how we learned. What success is is not making mistakes. So here we are dumped into adult life and we’ve got this paradigm of, that’s that’s what success is. So we feel like job to job, task to task our goal is to what eradicate as many mistakes from our work as we can, is get rid of the weaknesses. Well, come to find out that the research shows that you can really only take a weakness From a, you know, a negative 10 to maybe a negative four. It’s never gonna stop being a weakness when it comes to being intrinsically, you know, who you are, the essence of who you are. Um, I will never be a really great gregarious, um, the person who can work a room, you know, that you

[00:45:08.04] spk_1:
say you say in the book a few times, that you’re an

[00:46:11.48] spk_2:
introvert, introvert? Absolutely, 100%. But um so I’m only gonna do so much to mitigate that weakness. If I if I spent all my time trying to to play the extroverts game, I would never be able to leave the impact on the world that I otherwise would if I had focused on my strengths. Because the research, same research also shows that you can take a plus 10 with the same effort or much easier than you took the negative 10 to a negative four. You can take a plus 10 to a plus 40 in terms of your strengths. So what am I going to focus on as far as leaving my impact on the world? I’m a pretty good writer. So rather than focus on going into all of these networking events and working a room, I still need to show up, I still need to do that. Um and but if I have a certain amount of poker chips to put on a certain place, I’m gonna put those poker chips on my strengths and make sure that weaknesses aren’t holding me back, but focus most of my time on my strengths and bring people around me that have strengths in areas that I have weaknesses.

[00:46:21.48] spk_1:
The man claims he’s not a gambler, but now that’s the second uh that’s the second gambling metaphor. We’ve been through the roulette table, we’ve been to the poker table, I don’t know, maybe you’ll be upped the stakes, will go to baccarat, We’ll see, we’ll see where we

[00:46:33.27] spk_2:
go. Something tells me you’d be pretty dangerous in Vegas. tony may be dangerous

[00:47:08.38] spk_1:
to myself, Dangerous to my future and my retirement. Yeah, that that’s the danger. The house, the house has nothing to worry about. Yeah, that’s another one that’s individual. Um Mhm. Mhm. Eat last, eat last and get dirty. And this is a little controversial. This is talking about thinking differently. Uh This is not a not a mainstream uh Strategy Law Law number 19, but let’s talk about it, Eat last and get dirty.

[00:50:19.26] spk_2:
Yeah, something I do in the book is kind of chunk up each of these laws into sort of themed groups. And this one is in the laws of leadership. And it was I benefited although I didn’t appreciate it at the time. I benefitted while at West Point um being the recipient of an unending parade of speakers that would come before us. Uh It was Robinson Auditorium and we would go down as a class or as a whole school, only 4000 cadets in the whole of West Point. Um and we would gather in these auditoriums and once or twice a week, incredible leadership speakers from around the world would come and share their wisdom and a commonality that we’d find over and over again is this leadership attributes of selflessness of being the last to eat the last to leave the last to benefit when your soldiers. Uh in the context of West Point training, they come first soldiers first leaders last. And that finds a way of seeping into your soul after enough of those talks. Uh, and you get out and in the two combat tours, I was in Iraq. Uh that was something that you know, that I took to every unit that I lead is this idea that you know, they eat first, they get to use the phone first to call home, they get to use the computer first to send the email. And this leadership attribute is something that really endears those who serve alongside you. Uh they really come to to follow you into anything if they know that that’s the leadership um approach that you take. So in the nonprofit world, what what does that look like? Uh it really looks like, you know, being the leader who puts staff volunteers board the mission first. And it’s radical to see when you see it. It’s incredibly rare, as you say. Um, in the book, I think I used the example of from one of my favorite books by Stephen Press field of King Leonidas in Gates of Fire. Uh if if I could only recommend one leadership book and I give away cases of the thing. Um it’s it’s this book, Gates of Fire and there’s a critical moment when everyone is squabbling around what to do about this wall, there’s a debate where do we put it? How high do we make it? What materials do we use? And the old king just begins to pick up one block at a time and set it on top of the other and everyone looks on and says what what what is he doing? Well, he’s just beginning to to build the wall. He doesn’t say a word. He just leads by example and starts to do it and suddenly everyone had a shame says what what are we waiting for? Let’s go. And everyone starts to build it alongside him and there he is. Even to the end, long after others have have tired out. He’s still they’re still building. So that that to me is the image of leadership that I try to carry with me. Don’t I wouldn’t say I’m always successful but that’s the ideal.

[00:51:14.86] spk_1:
You do say people will follow a strong and sacrificial figure who leads by example will find a point on it. Um but then you know it goes far. You know, you talk about work martyrdom and that’s why I said this one is certainly I think is is controversial, controversial polemic. Um you martyrdom. Mm hmm. Not not taking vacation. You know you you open that law. I think with a description of what most people would say is someone overcommitted. Uh maybe even obsequious to their to their supervisor. Uh show it feels they have to be the first one in the office and the last one every day etcetera and then you you you encapsulated as as work martyrdom. But then you you praise that.

[00:53:43.85] spk_2:
Yeah, so this is hopefully where I don’t lose, lose you and certainly not our listeners. Absolute. Yeah, no, this is one of the more controversial parts of 40 laws. Um I’ve noticed a trend recently uh just in uh as you know, a lot of the well intentioned writings and books around mental health in the workplace um have tried, you know, for for a long, long time to get people to recognize that, you know, it’s necessary to be a whole person and a lot of that is is very useful and well meaning. But as in all things I believe the pendulum can swing too far in one or the other direction. And it’s my humble opinion that the pendulum may have swung a little bit too far in the direction of uh trying to build a padded room around the workplace of there is a little bit of a manby pamby uh vibe to a lot of what’s coming out these days when it comes to work is don’t don’t work too too hard now and you need to make sure that you have the proper balance in place. And you know, again, all well intentioned, but what it’s done is is ignore the story after story that I put in the book. Every chapter begins with a key leader, the real story of a nonprofit leader who um if they had taken that advice would not have achieved near what they did in their lives, uh with the impact that they did, um to include some of the foremost figures like dr martin Luther King, Jr who was flying around all over the place during the height of his ministry to achieve what he did. Uh did he back off? Did he take it easy? Did he embrace a work life balance? Um I would say maybe not according to, you know what we’re hearing from a lot of folks these days. So work martyrdom is the term that I give to, you know, the the extreme pendulum swing that says, you know, don’t don’t don’t work too hard, take it easy. Well, I would say that in order to achieve the, the impact on the world that many of these non profit missions would hope to achieve. Yeah, it’s gonna take, it’s gonna take a radical level of work ethic in order to achieve that. A work ethic that would look crazy uh, to maybe some of the folks who are writing these books. So again, I hope I didn’t lose you or too many folks with with that little screen, but that’s where I land

[00:55:06.94] spk_1:
invited it. Uh, I well, we’ll leave it there. Let let folks decide what what what what what the balance is, what’s appropriate. Let’s wrap up with one another one. I’m so such a generous spirit today. I don’t know why it’s uh it’s upsetting me that, uh, not at all, but let’s wrap up with one that you’d like to talk about that we haven’t talked about yet. Um, yeah, you could, you could you pick a law that we, we if if if you need a little guidance, like we didn’t talk about anything related to laws of engagement or laws of operating. Um, we didn’t talk about laws of diversity. And the only reason I left that out intentionally is because I anticipate a lot of conversations coming up Around diversity from the nonprofit technology conference where I’m gonna be interviewing 25 or 30 of their speakers that’s coming up in March. And I know we’re gonna have a lot of guests talking about diversity. So that’s why that’s why I didn’t leave. That’s why I deliberately left out your, You’re four laws on diversity, but you want to please.

[00:56:53.33] spk_2:
Well, there’s, there’s one, there’s one within the laws of diversity that that is not going to touch on the nose to what you’re going to be talking about, you know, in later podcasts and in the conference. So if if I may be so bold that the one that I think is Is a way to end on a high note as well is celebrate. And elevate law 18 celebrate and elevate. And it it’s, uh, it touches on diversity, but it’s, it’s broader than that. Um, you know, we’ve talked about lots of things that, you know, uh, nonprofits can improve on. But I’d like to end on a high note just by saying that your nonprofit, whoever you are, whatever you’re doing, uh there’s things that are happening every single day that are worth celebrating. So I would I would say that, you know, the best gift you can give your non profit is a great board of directors. The next best gift a close second is a culture of celebration within the walls of your nonprofit. There are many things that are happening all the time that are worth celebrating. If your emails are loaded with celebration, if you’re if you catch your staff or volunteers doing things well and make a huge deal of it and are lavish in your praise of them. Uh and celebrating them. If you’re starting out each of your staff meetings with a celebratory moment of something that’s that’s going great in your organization. Um that’s what I would say is if you can give your nonprofit a culture of celebration where you’re constantly catching things going well, giving voice to them, being vocal about them and recognize them recognizing those things in silly, exciting ways. Uh maybe even to the point of literally having a bell in your nonprofit workspace where you’re ringing the bell all day long. Uh that is the kind of nonprofit, I love, I’d love to be involved in, and I’m sure you would as well. So that’s what I would say is is find ways to, to develop a culture of celebration within your nonprofit

[00:57:25.53] spk_1:
Derek Timmerman, D E R I K. Founder of Sparrow Nonprofit solutions. The book is the 40 laws of nonprofit impact. Derek, thank you so much. What a

[00:57:27.15] spk_2:
pleasure. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you tony

[00:58:08.33] spk_1:
next week, influencing young America to act with Derrick Feldmann. You see how the show is planned out to all the, how all the derricks come together. This this does not just happen, this is this is takes production skill. I can’t even begin to explain that the time that goes into uh coordinating the derricks to be together. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is

[00:58:35.13] spk_0:
Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for June 28, 2021: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Center Equity & Tech In Your Hiring, Retention & Training

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns for a valuable, fun conversation that starts with the #ShowTheSalary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor, and CEO of NTEN.



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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:02:04.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of para Nicaea if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Amy sample Ward returns for a valuable fund conversation that starts with the show the salary campaign and winds into technology strategies for treating your staff like adults and learners. She’s our technology and social media contributor and ceo of N 10 on tony state too. Let’s rejoice, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, let’s get started, shall we, what do you say here is center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Amy sample ward. You know her, you know who she is, she’s our technology and social media contributor and she’s the Ceo of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi channel engagement. She’s at a me sample ward dot org and at AMy R. S Ward, Welcome back amy,

[00:02:05.44] spk_0:
it’s been so long.

[00:02:15.34] spk_1:
I know it’s been several months. I didn’t even look back. It’s been too long, but let’s not, let’s not dwell on that. We’ll get, it’s my job to fix it.

[00:02:16.81] spk_0:
So what is time anyway? You

[00:02:19.37] spk_1:
know? Oh, that’s an existential question that we don’t have the time to answer what time is. So, um, you’re well in Oregon. Yes.

[00:03:00.44] spk_0:
Yeah. Doing pretty well hot. We’re hot in Oregon. We’ve got, we’ve got a hot hot keep wave and a hot summer ahead of us, but otherwise doing okay. And you know, I think like a lot of parts of the country, the kind of atmosphere feels like it’s lifting a little bit as, as cities kind of open up more because because it is summer, even if it’s super hot, it’s better to be outside and see other people, You know, I think after a long hard winter, people really just be inside

[00:03:08.12] spk_1:
Last summer, largely the same. Yeah, at least if you were doing the right thing. So yes, it beats the hell out of summer, 2020,

[00:03:15.10] spk_0:
right? Yeah.

[00:03:17.44] spk_1:
Although I’m sorry that climate change has contributed to bad temperatures in Oregon and

[00:03:22.55] spk_0:
yeah, yeah, we’ve already, it’s already fire season here and fire

[00:03:27.78] spk_1:
season is all the year now. Now California just doesn’t even have a fire season anymore. They just have fire fire

[00:04:40.64] spk_0:
thinking about, you know, how many And and 10 has community members all over the us Canada Europe all around the world. Um, and so it’s something we’re always thinking about is, you know, what’s going on and for somebody that might open an email or show up to a court. So being one of our cohort programs where we’re really kind of expecting a lot of you over an extended period of time and, you know, there’s folks in so many different geography, so many different identities, so many different kind of compounding factors where it just might not be a day that you can join of course, you know, and we have done a lot of work, kind of, all of all of 2020 started in 2019 and launched this calendar year with a number of changes to our programs so that people were better able to say, yeah, this isn’t the day that I can join us and that they weren’t kind of like slowly slipping behind or slipping out of any of our programs, that the system was already built for them to be like, yeah, not today. You know, uh again,

[00:05:15.54] spk_1:
we’re gonna talk about that to me that falls under the rubric of tech equity. We’re gonna we’re gonna talk about that. Let’s start with the something I know is on your mind. The show the salary campaign. There was it was a critical piece In the chronicle of philanthropy. Just yesterday, we’re recording on June 23 yesterday. There was a piece by Vincent Robinson, critical of show the salary campaign. Let’s acquaint folks with what show the salary is

[00:06:21.64] spk_0:
for sure. So I think show the salary like hashtag no spaces show the salary is a campaign, but it is not the only movement for there are many, many folks, many different hashtags, many different appeals to the sector at large, whether that’s foundation jobs or nonprofit jobs, whoever to include the salary, whether that’s a hard and fast number or that’s a range in every job hosting from Ceo to to any other position really because of the number of dynamics that come when you don’t show that salary and the privilege that it really wraps itself around, um that it’s not creating an equitable opportunity or access point for all different kinds of folks to apply for that job. And show the show salary is one of these campaigns and efforts to encourage folks whether by asking nicely or shaming whichever direction works to get people to do it

[00:07:41.14] spk_1:
all right. And some of the some of the reasons that showing the salary is important are I know that it gives an advantage to folks who negotiate salary better, which is typically white men. They are more confident in their negotiations. They have better outcomes when they attempt to negotiate. If not even better outcomes, they at least get get a better reaction when they attempt to negotiate. So it gives advantage to the white privileged. Um It’s um it’s disadvantageous in that you might be, I mean this this applies to everybody. You you might spend your time applying for a job that’s beneath your salary requirement. We all got to cover. We all got to cover a monthly nut. And if your salary isn’t gonna do it, you gotta go through a a laborious process to find that out. Maybe a couple of interviews, several hours your research time, you’re spiffing up your resume time, your credentials. So why should I hide it from anybody? Um on the positive side, he promotes transparency and you’d like to hire people who want to work for transparent organizations and people want to work for transparent organization? What am what am I what am I leaving out of the why the advantages, the reasons for showing the salary?

[00:08:32.14] spk_0:
I mean, I think all of those are right. And also all of those are kind of like doorways into an entire, you know, grouping of arguments that are related to them, right? And I think it intend we really um combined when we’re trying to mask or compelled or encourage or convince other organizations to include salaries to us that means compensation and generally make clear what your benefits really are. Don’t say generous benefits because to your point, if someone is um has chronic illness and they know that health care is going to be a really important part of the benefits they get and all that you’ve said is generous benefits. They don’t know how to navigate if that’s going to be worth their time competitive

[00:08:54.34] spk_1:
Really. You know, when you think about these things critically, which, you know, it’s, it’s just uh you know, for me at 59 years old, it’s what I grew up with commensurate salary, salary commenced with the experience and generous benefits. No, but if you do think about that well, it really communicates nothing generous, generous by whose standards commensurate by what type of experience

[00:08:57.34] spk_0:
and with the arbiter of that. Right?

[00:08:59.53] spk_1:
Well who is it? Yeah, who is? Right.

[00:10:24.74] spk_0:
Yeah. I think especially as uh folks are starting to maybe in a token izing way, look to increase the number of black indigenous staff of color, um, L G B T Q I plus like all different, you know, quote unquote diverse metrics for their staff. Those folks want to know that they are going to be evaluated by something they opted into, Right? So seeing something like, oh, it’s commensurate with experience. Well, if you are excited to hire me because I also speak spanish, but you’re not, you’re not giving me a salary because of that, then that’s probably not a great place, right? Like all of those decisions add up to a picture that’s getting painted to potential staff before they even apply, let alone are hired and start there. And if you think about, you know, what is this picture we’re painting? Is it just like murky and you can’t see anything isn’t really clear. We painted a beautiful picture of this land. They could come come join. You know, it isn’t just like what’s in the organization’s interest because you really want to be able to negotiate with someone. I would, I would invite a bit of reflection on why you want to change something, you know, because if you don’t already know how much you can pay, that’s how much you can pay. And if you don’t, then you’re probably not ready to start hiring.

[00:11:23.84] spk_1:
Okay. Uh, Vincent Robinson pushed back against the show the salary campaign. His his main point is that now he is a recruiter. He makes a point of saying that his practice is devoted to expanding diversity and accessibility among job applicant among applicants. Yes. And placements that he makes uh, he says that 90% of the candidates that he places are diverse. Bye bye. Common standards. Alright, So let’s, let’s just assume that that’s all the case. Uh, take him at his word for that. He says that the main problem with the show, the salary campaign is that it actually disadvantages folks. Um what’s this point? Because

[00:11:32.54] spk_0:
I mean, essentially, if I can, can recap it, um, the way that we read it and have discussed, invented is essentially saying that by disclosing that salary, so don’t already make it discouraged, right? Would feel that they wouldn’t go for that job. And

[00:12:22.64] spk_1:
Their if their current as it uses the example of someone whose salary is $60,000 and they feel they’re eminently qualified for a job that posts range, or a salary of $150,000, that they will be discouraged from applying because they feel they’re not worthy of that salary. And he says that he has counseled many people in that situation that they should absolutely apply. What does the I’m not I don’t want to make you a spokesman for the show, the salary campaign. We don’t even know who the members of the show the salary campaign are, which we are going to talk about. The secretive side of that. I’m curious about that. We’ll get to that as an advocate for show the salary. What do you say to Mr Robinson?

[00:15:23.34] spk_0:
Sure, I wouldn’t have nothing to do with the show, the salary campaign. And as far as I understand it, it’s a campaign started by nonprofit staff in the charity sector in the UK. Um wow, she and being in love with their julie and I have nothing to do with it. But there are, you know, folks like Julie and the community centric fundraising community and 10 lots of folks in the us have also been calling for this. I think the idea that someone would see a higher salary and think that they are not qualified. I’m not going to say that doesn’t exist like humans are complicated, dynamic, interesting creatures. And I’m sure there are people for whom they have experienced a lifetime of internalized messages that they are not worthy of that job, right? That is not going to be changed by all organizations continuing to hide the salary. We’re not changing the sectors general attitude that everyone deserves more money by hiding salary. So even if, even if there are individual use cases where people were discouraged because of a high salary, that is not a validation for not disclosing it. And ultimately, by showing those salaries, you’re encouraging peer organizations to equally pay that much for the similar title or scoped positions. Um, You know, I think another perspective, we talked about an intent was, well, if that person is making 60,000 there in an organization that has the full kind of, uh, equate herbal scope to that other position, then they probably shouldn’t be making 60. And the issue is that they are currently making too little, not that they are not qualified for a job that makes twice as much right. That the real issue is, is their current place of employment and that that place they should be able to use that job posting to say, hey, I like a race. I think the dynamic that’s not spoken about in the Chronicle piece that I do think is an important part of the conversation about hiring in the sector is the fact that that articles written by a recruit and I think that I have experienced and seen and coached many people applying for jobs who have a very different uh understanding or expectation or assumptions about what’s going on when they are dealing with a recruiter, then when they are applying directly to the organization. I think there’s a lot of messaging and marketing that recruitment firms are, you know, leadership or C. I. O. C Suite ceo type of jobs. And those feel like they imply a level of corporate nous, maybe certain size of organization, you know, and those are probably more likely the factors that are making folks feel like they don’t want to go for the job than the fact that it pays more money. But

[00:15:43.84] spk_1:
it’s interesting just the existence of a recruiter could be off putting to a lot of folks who internalize messages about their credentials.

[00:15:45.61] spk_0:
Not that I don’t think people should use recruiters, I definitely think they should, but I think that that’s an unspoken reality that is not factored into that article.

[00:16:01.94] spk_1:
Right. Right. Right. Which I’m not sure that he would even acknowledge. Yeah. But okay, I

[00:16:06.74] spk_0:
wanna, can I can I can I steer us back to the question and you always get to steer Can I give

[00:16:10.01] spk_1:
you latitude

[00:17:36.74] spk_0:
well, because you said something that I thought was interesting and we could talk about for a second earlier when you were saying, you know, expertise. Uh and I think that’s also a big part of all of this, is that If you were to take to job listings that you found, that said the salary and they said they were both $60,000 jobs, right? 60,000? Um as your annual salary? Mhm. I cannot imagine that you would find those two jobs, say they’re looking for the same experience or expertise or scope of job, even if they were both in communications are both in in programs, right? So I feel like there’s also an opportunity to be very open and intentional with how we phrase or or position to potential staff, what we were looking for when we hired you, because if it’s just like, you know how to use this database and you know, you know, you know how to do these tactical things, I don’t know how it matters who it is. You hire hire the first person then, right? Like if that’s the thing that’s most important to you, it’s just that they can technically do these things that feels to me like you maybe don’t even need a human. That’s a

[00:17:51.64] spk_1:
pretty, that’s a pretty shallow job description. If it’s just a list of four things that you need to be able to do it, right, then you just hire the first person who can do those four things and it makes no difference who it is,

[00:18:15.74] spk_0:
right? But I see, you know, intent as a dartboard and um see jobs posted in the sector on twitter et cetera all the time. I feel like hiring is kind of picking up now and I see so much of it is like we really want you to have experience with X database or X website platform or you know, and like does any of that matter? Can’t you teach somebody the

[00:18:19.26] spk_1:
database? It’s all trainable, it’s all right, we need somebody who’s trainable

[00:18:49.24] spk_0:
right? Like eager to learn, interested in doing the work that we do, but not that you already know how to do certain things right? That’s not the most compelling. And again back to that idea of like you’re painting a picture for these potential applicants, you’re painting a picture that like what they’re what they’re part of. That magical garden scene is like you have a hammer, you have a shovel, you have some seed like you know, it’s probably looks not as appealing, right? It looks like, oh yes, this is beautiful garden scene and I will sit over here hammering on the bench.

[00:19:26.14] spk_1:
Uh I mean uh I guess what we’re, what we’re talking about though, depends on the level that you’re hiring too. I mean if if an expertise is required in something that’s not that’s not trainable, I mean you so you have I. T. Staff, you have the luxury of having write your own development team. Um

[00:19:26.79] spk_0:
So yes, he does the work of a team. Okay. Okay.

[00:19:32.40] spk_1:
Yes. We’ll shout him out now. Go ahead

[00:19:34.25] spk_0:
dan. Yeah.

[00:20:02.04] spk_1:
So you have the luxury of having a development person, web development person. Um So, you know, he has to have a basic level of skill or or beyond basic in certain things. I don’t know whether it’s C Plus plus or drooping or you know, whatever. I don’t know. Html Well, we’re beyond html That I know. So, you know, at that point you would, you would advertise a fluency with something, wouldn’t you?

[00:20:09.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean when we hired for that position, you know, we certainly wanted to say these are the platforms we’re currently using. Um, but okay. And you need to, you

[00:20:15.11] spk_1:
need to be able to support these.

[00:20:58.64] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. But that was, you know, that’s more of like, hey, this is the job. So stop reading if you don’t know what wordpress is, Maybe not the posting for you, but the things that we really want our, that you, I want to be part of a team where every person has leadership responsibility. You know, you’re not just going to be told what to do. Like you also have to come up with what to do and uh, you know, we want everybody on the team helps with the Ntc. You’re going to like carry a sign down the hallway, put it somewhere. Like you don’t just get to sit at a computer. You know, like we really want to communicate that working at what working in china is like and make clear that that’s what we’re looking for, right vs. The list is for this salary. You can do these five technical things.

[00:25:18.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times, Wall Street Journal, UsA Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, The Hill Cranes, nonprofit Quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten recent exposure. You want that kind of press turn to has the relationships to make it happen. Turn hyphen two dot c O. Your story is their mission. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Let’s rejoice this summer. We’ve come so far from a year ago from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in this summer. I hope you can. Yes, there’s a long ways to go to My state. North Carolina is less than 50% vaccinated, but we’re so much further from where we were last summer. Let’s take some pleasure in how far we have come. I hope that you can do that in your own way. I hope you can schedule some time away or some just some time. It doesn’t even have to be time away. I hope you can schedule time for yourself, family, friends, all of which we couldn’t do couldn’t do safely a year ago. So let’s rejoice in how far we have come while at the same time recognizing there’s a good way to go before we’re out of the woods with this pandemic with the delta variant now and other possibilities of variations. Yeah, we’ve come a long way. I hope that you can take the time for yourself, for your family, for friends to do some rejoicing this summer. Have some fun, whatever form fun takes for you, whatever it is. If it’s crocheting, if it’s travel, if it’s stay home, okay if it’s more time with kids, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, whatever form fun takes for you. I hope you can do it. I hope you can because we are so much further along than we were this time last year. That is Tony’s take two sending blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag, tisk, tisk. It’s your life if you’re using one of those, send in blue is priced for nonprofits, easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out, sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for center equity and tech in your hiring retention and training. Very melodic. It’s like, it’s iambic pentameter. Almost. How do you encourage job posters on the N 10 job board, which I know is one of your more popular pages on the areas on the, on the site at n 10 dot org of course. Um, I know you require salary their number or arrange a minimum or arrange I guess. But beyond that, what, what can you or what can other folks do to either encourage it if they have a job board or working in their own job descriptions.

[00:26:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think a lot of the other work that we do is not very publicly visible. I have had a number of community members over the years since we’ve been requiring salary where they want to post a position. They themselves had already asked their organization, what’s the salary going to be in the organizations that were not posting it? So then they come to me and say like, I don’t have a lot of positional power. But what I could do is like bring you in on a conversation that put some pressure on, you know, and have some conversation that, that does convince them because even if they didn’t want to do it, they’re doing it gradually. I was looking at them so they did it, you know, you know,

[00:26:10.85] spk_1:
you know that,

[00:26:11.79] spk_0:
well, you

[00:26:13.28] spk_1:
Have the leverage of the N- 10 job board and we’re talking about technology if it detects job, the intent job board is like a Seminole place to be.

[00:26:43.74] spk_0:
Right. Right. So I’ve had lots of places where I’ve either helped people come up with their talking points to take to their team or joined email threads or even had phone calls with hiring managers who weren’t convinced, you know, and just spent 10 minutes talking to them about it, um, to get them kind of to the other side. And I think that’s, You know, while it’s kind of maybe not in my job description, those 10 minute calls or helping somebody with their talking points in a Google dog are changing organizations. And I really love between that work, you know,

[00:27:31.84] spk_1:
but that’s using intense influence the same way you do when you, uh, when you sign contracts for, for the NtC that you insist you have, you have certain requirements from, I guess diversity to food to, you know, whatever you use the leverage, use the leverage in that case it’s dollars in hiring case, it’s the N 10 job board you want to be on it. I mean the bottom line is you got to play by our rules. I’m happy to have a conversation with you about why those rules exist and how they contribute to the in 10 values,

[00:27:33.92] spk_0:

[00:27:43.54] spk_1:
they flow from the intent values. Maybe more more eloquent, but more appropriate. But in the end, you know, if you want to be on the job board, you gotta, you gotta use our rules if you want. You want the N 10 money, you want the N 10 conference at your center, then we have, we have certain basic requirements that are unyielding.

[00:28:51.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting because the intent job board, of course you can post a job, but I think most people think of when they think of a job board, like a part time or full time organization that you are working for overtime. But we also, you can also post gigs or RFP s shorter term project type posts and we require a salary or budget to be listed on those two and that’s actually the place where we get the most push back. Um and folks will say, well we don’t know what our budget is until people reply to our RFP. And while I understand that, could I feel like reality, there is just like a, just like a potential applicant to become an employee. A potential contractor also doesn’t know if this is a project that they should bother trying to take on if they have no idea what your budget. So again, you don’t know what your budget is. You’re not ready to hire. Call for our FPs. You

[00:28:56.38] spk_1:
Need to know whether this is a $10,000 project or $60,000 project. I mean without saying a range of $10-$60,000, which is, which is worthless. People, people do that. Do they say?

[00:29:08.44] spk_0:
Okay, sometimes? Yes.

[00:29:10.03] spk_1:
Alright, well that’s

[00:31:05.24] spk_0:
worth. Sometimes. Yes, we try and catch those and talk to people. But you know, I think that folks, it’s such, it’s also such a privileged position to say like, well, we don’t even know what the budget is, where what I hear in that is whatever people tell us is what we could pay. And I don’t think that most nonprofits have a relationship to their cash flow, where they could say whatever somebody says is what we should pay, right? You you likely do have a discreet budget range And even if you feel like it’s really low and you’re sad that it would look low, it’s better that that’s on the table at the beginning, before a bunch of firms, you know, do a bunch of work. Um, and 10 actually just closed an RFP for our own, like it was on our job board, but it was our own RFP to do a website redesign project. And um, we had talked to, uh, so many firms in the community, but one had kind of expressed a bit of a surprise that we were anticipating 10, maybe 15 Responses to the RFP. That that would be a lot of responses. Well, we got over 40 and what we heard from a lot of people is the reason we got so many is because the RFP was very clear. It said why that was our budget and what what we could do in house, what we needed somebody else to do. So, because we have taken longer than our original timeline was internally to be really clear in the RV, we were able to get so many more potential folks that wanted to work with us. And now of course, I don’t know how long it’s gonna take us to read this many are applications, but um, it’s a better problem to have than than only a few that submit and none of them feel like a good fit. You know, now we’ll be able to choose from a great difficult group of to decide.

[00:31:45.34] spk_1:
So it ends up being worth the internal time that you spent. It was beyond your projected time because you’ve got 433 times the number of applicants, uh, proposals that you were expecting. All right. Right. Um, uh, so let’s talk about the show the salary campaign. Okay. Now you all right. So you said you’re not you’re not a part of it. I didn’t know that had started in the UK for one. I feel like they, um, they suffer some because it’s all it’s all secretive. They don’t reveal.

[00:31:46.69] spk_0:
Doesn’t need to be like,

[00:32:01.04] spk_1:
well, yeah, I mean, I think credibility, I think naming who you are, at least some of whom you are, helps with credibility. You know, purely

[00:32:02.03] spk_0:
seeking. But they do say that there are non profit staff.

[00:32:05.84] spk_1:

[00:32:24.34] spk_0:
And I feel like their appeal isn’t saying we like this one organization, you know, we’d like this one funder to change their grant application and we are previous grantees. So we have a level of knowledge. Like there isn’t any, uh, in my opinion, there isn’t any justification you need to do to say, yeah, I think people should have to show their salaries, you know, they

[00:32:38.34] spk_1:
Have, like six or 8 reasons why the salary should be shown. Uh, you know, it’s secretiveness creates suspicion,

[00:32:44.14] spk_0:
doesn’t I just I just don’t share that feeling. I feel

[00:32:48.15] spk_1:

[00:34:03.44] spk_0:
um not the number of people that, like, for example, we have because we have talked on the website and the job board, we have a blog post about why we want people to to include their salary. Um, it’s common that folks that we don’t know or or we’re not first name basis, like community member, we know who they are will tag us in a tweet thread and include our blog post while they are trying to convince someone else. We weren’t even heard of that. We don’t know who these people are that are talking, you know? But they’re like, oh well and then to doesn’t here’s their article and you should really do this. So those people don’t even necessarily know who we are, but they’re using it to support their argument. And I feel like I don’t need to go into that twitter friends like, hello, I am a me I am in ceo these are all of the reasons why I get to exclaim this. And you know, I don’t I don’t know that. I don’t know that the campaign, like so many other campaigns is trying to say that the exclusive use of that hashtag are the eight collaborators on that website, right that like anyone can go appeal to folks that are sharing their salary and ask them to do it. You know that it’s it’s about the message. It’s not about the people who have the capacity to build the website and get it out

[00:34:29.54] spk_1:
there. It is. Yeah. As I said, they have six or eight reasons why you should should show the salary. Um All right. Maybe I’m just more traditionalist, but you know, secretiveness breeds suspicion for me. I would like to see a couple of

[00:34:31.27] spk_0:
names that

[00:34:32.06] spk_1:
Uh and then but then you say, you know, but in that case where you were citing, you know, in 10 gets broke. So other folks brought you in. So you’re they presume your credibility

[00:34:42.94] spk_0:
well. But I think it’s the same way where people that aren’t who I’m just saying that because that’s a random number of people, but like whoever was the friends who created that website, like people don’t need to know them in order to use the hashtag show the salary for saying, you

[00:35:00.54] spk_1:
know, and and to agree with the six or 8 reasons that they

[00:35:03.08] spk_0:
have, which

[00:35:07.04] spk_1:
is you’re all very cogent to me. I just I would like them to go a step further.

[00:35:11.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Ok. I hear your concern. I have nothing to do with them. So I can I will not pass this feedback to anyone. But

[00:36:01.33] spk_1:
you don’t know anybody. I don’t know. It’s like people say this is in confidence. I always say, well, I don’t know anybody to tell. Right? And a few people I do know that nobody listens to me anyway. So, so your your confidence is well kept with me. Don’t worry. Don’t worry about that. Yeah. Yeah, sure. You got my confidence. Absolutely. This isn’t confidence. Absolutely. Okay. Um bringing a little more down to uh, some actionable steps or if the if not actionable, at least, things that folks can consider. And I’m always grateful to you that we can use N 10 as an example. You have, you have the N 10 Equity Guide for nonprofit technology which is at N 10 dot org. And my suggestion after that was just search for Equity guide for nonprofit technology in

[00:36:05.24] spk_0:
your or its underneath the resources either way. Okay.

[00:36:29.53] spk_1:
It’s called the Equity guide for nonprofit technology and you have some things that you recommend there and I’m sure that intend abides by or at least tries to abide by as best as you can. Um, and the first one is that is sort of what we were talking about earlier. Don’t assume expertise in technology radio

[00:38:52.12] spk_0:
and I think that this gets a little bit confusing for folks because they are hiring for a position where whomever is hired saying is you tony I hire you. I know that so much of your day is going to be using these couple systems and I think I’m doing doing a favor to everybody by saying, okay, we really want somebody who already knows how to use these things, right. But it is unlikely that the way you use that database or the way you have set up your website or the way you use white books, you know, whatever it is, is exactly the same organization to organization. Um kind of what we were saying before, you want somebody who’s interested in ready to learn how you use your database and maybe you want somebody who is familiar with what databases do and are and has ever used a database. But the idea that it’s really important to hire someone who’s used that exact same suite of tools, it doesn’t, it’s just not realistic. They have not been customized the way your organization is customized people are using Salesforce in a way that is unrecognizable, Salesforce. That doesn’t mean that because they use Salesforce somewhere else, they automatically know how you’re using it. And all of those things, just as you said at the beginning or a teacher, we should be invested in teaching all staff, all of the technical things they need always, not just in their orientation, right? But technology training is all the time because technology is changing. And when we remove those pieces of focus from the job description, it allows us to really focus on what matters more. That’s less tradable, less teachable. And that is, you know, are you solutions minded? Are you interested in leadership and responsibility? Do you have experience with community engagement? Do you come from this community that we serve? I don’t know what things might be specific to the job that we’re all raised from in here in this example. But getting to elevate those other pieces that are maybe more about what somebody wants to do or has a natural inclination towards, instead of Can you click a mouse on the screen? Like we will teach you how to do that part, you know? But if you don’t like working with people, maybe that’s not the job because they’re clicking the button so that they can talk to people right? Like there’s something else happening in that job and focus on that instead

[00:39:10.22] spk_1:
related to that making training accessible. Uh, so, you know, I mean, to me there, those really go hand and glove. I mean, don’t assume a certain type of expertise and then you need to make the training accessible. And as you just said, you know, throughout, because technology is changing, it’s not

[00:40:45.21] spk_0:
just not everybody learns in the same way orientation. Uh just saying like, oh yeah, we made this internal wiggy and there’s a bunch of pages, How about it? Like not everyone can just go look at this wiki. They didn’t make themselves and learn from it. So know that however you’re going to invest in training, its investing in different types of opportunities to learn the same, maybe core functions so that people can engage the way that that works for them. And then take, for example, the way that we do this is we like to, you know, document things so that it is written down for people that like to have the guide of, okay, step one step to do some uh recorded a recorded screen where someone is clicking through doing the thing right? And then everybody brings their computer to a meeting and we all do it out loud together at the same time so that somebody can say I did a practice one of these before the meeting and now it’s showing me the screen and then everybody can look and you’re like, oh my screen looks like this, your screen looks like this. Let’s all learn what this error is, you know? Um and it means that of course it normalizes that everyone needs to learn these things and it isn’t just, you know, one person’s job, but it also creates this opportunity for really deep learning because we engaged in that so many different ways, you know, as a team,

[00:41:04.01] spk_1:
community learning right together. Yeah. Um you know, requiring equitable equipment policies and and that’s related to bring your own device,

[00:42:27.50] spk_0:
bring your own device, something we saw at the start of the pandemic, even beyond, Bring your own device was, you know, in an organization where there’s uh in use a very traditional hierarchy, people that were directors or above got to have Apple laptops. So when they said, okay, work from home, they were ready to go. The managers and below had desktop computers, so they were not ready to go, you know, um, and there wasn’t uh, acknowledgment of the inequity there. And I think that’s a very easy case in point where you can think about that. But we’ve received so many questions over the last 16 months of people saying, okay, well, now that our organization is convinced, then we can kind of kind of maintain a hybrid model going forward. They still haven’t changed the policies that say directors get a new computer every two years and everybody else gets one every six years, but my computer is dying, you know, and I don’t qualify. So the option I’m being told by my own or use my own, which of course isn’t, isn’t equitable is not a fair expectation, but it also creates all these other security vulnerabilities were now working off of machines that are part of the organization’s college.

[00:42:46.30] spk_1:
It goes yes, it is inequitable. It’s also high risk. Right? So, so the employee buys their own now, how do you know what else they have on it? It belongs to them. They are welcome to their privileged and entitled to put whatever they want on it. And how do you know? And what? So now what kind of devices, your data being stored on?

[00:43:22.50] spk_0:
Right. Exactly. And where are people accessing it from? You know, a number of organizations often try to address some level of security vulnerability by making sure that all of the staff laptops have a VPN and they know how to turn the VPN on, but then when they start using their tablet or their own personal computer to do that work in a different way, they’re not going through the VPN. So there’s just so many places where it undermines other efforts you have actually invested in because you are not thinking about what it needs to have devices for everybody that works for them.

[00:44:29.89] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. And let’s wrap up with, and there’s, there’s many more, there’s probably a dozen different, if again, if not action, actionable items, at least items for you to think about and discuss all throughout the, uh, in this, in the intent equity guide for nonprofit technology. There’s a lot more than what we’re just the couple that I’m that I’m raising with Amy, that we’re talking about supporting remote work obviously, very timely, uh, enormously, you know, but um, everybody doesn’t have, uh, there’s not the same level of, of broadband access. We know this, I mean, you’ve been you’ve been active for years on the broadband equity. Um and now it’s part of biden’s infrastructure proposal. Well, how much of that will get past? Very uncertain, right? Some people only define infrastructure as macadam and concrete and bricks and mortar and beyond that, you know, they don’t want to know about infrastructure. So, you know, you can’t even assume the simplest things that so many of us take for granted exist among all your among all your staff.

[00:45:49.19] spk_0:
And, you know, I think what’s just so confounding to me is the number of organizations who last March said, oh my gosh, we have to work from home. So they didn’t, they worked from home, they work from home for over a year, and now they’re saying you have to be in the office to work, which what I hear when someone says that is that You do not believe work happened for the last 16 months, and I’m pretty sure that work did have, and it probably happened in ways that were better for each individual staff person managing their day and their needs and what else they had going on in their life. So if if folks have to be in the office, sitting at that desk in front of the screen to be quote unquote work came to me that says, you don’t think what can happen unless they are being surveilled while they do it, right? That realizing you’re stuck and you are definitely not working on this article you need to work on. So you’re gonna get up and like make a big fresh pot of tea that that’s not a part of your human management of your

[00:45:53.61] spk_1:
valuable to you.

[00:46:50.98] spk_0:
Right. Right. So, I think organizations that are pushing for this kind of return to in person are really hurting their staff. There are staff. We’ve already seen articles about staff are leaving on mass instead of returning because that’s not it’s the bar, right? Like we have said, the bar is I should be able to be a human that can be trusted to do my job and also live my life. And organizations that can’t respect that I think are not going to have the kind of, you know, talent and diversity that they may say they want. Um, and what I think is important to also acknowledges, there are people for whom working in the office is ideal for them because they can’t focus at home or at home. There are too many other demands on their time from family members or, or whatever else. But That one person working best in the office doesn’t mean everyone else has to be there. Exactly 9-5 with them, right. There should still be a way to support folks who are really great staff and just can’t be in the office, you know?

[00:47:26.88] spk_1:
Yeah. There are folks who want to be nomads now. You know, we, we can’t ignore what, what we learned over the past 16 months and what people have learned about themselves as well as what hopefully organizations learned about themselves and their people. These lessons, you know, these lessons are with us now for generations, right?

[00:47:31.78] spk_0:
And that’s our opportunity to learn from them and get better and grow versus hold on to an idea of something that also wasn’t working before the pandemic,

[00:48:23.97] spk_1:
right? But we just very few people have the courage. Very few organizations have the courage to attempt something different, okay. And they got forced into it to marches ago and we can’t ignore the lessons that we’ve learned and people are not, people are not going to be willing to take a step back. So yeah, if your organization is insisting, I would say especially now during the summer, I mean, if it’s maddening, I mean, uh, you know, I’ve had folks tell me that their offices go, they’re going back to the office starting in like mid june or july. It’s the summer for Pete’s sake. Nobody had any any summer in 2020. So if, if you have any humanity at all, at least wait until september or maybe even october. But even beyond then, right, you know, we’ve learned so much and people are not going to be willing to go backwards. And if you want, if you want to retain the best people, you know, some of them are going to want to be nomads. Now, some of them,

[00:48:33.52] spk_0:
you’re going to want to be able to be at home when their kid is sick and not have to take off work. Yeah.

[00:48:49.67] spk_1:
Okay. It’s, it’s equity, it’s tech, it’s hiring, its, its retention, it’s good policies

[00:49:01.37] spk_0:
and I think part of how we ended up going all over the place of this conversation is just a reflection of how interconnected all these things are and kind of directional. If you, if you can’t share your salary on your job description, you’re probably, what else are you hiding from people? Oh, now they’re hired. They probably don’t get to have a great computer that they choose, right? Like it’s all part of the same mess.

[00:49:32.17] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. We only contribute 25% of health care premiums. Yeah, exactly. All right. All right. Thank you. Amy Amy sample award ceo of intent. Our technology and social media contributor. Uh, you’ll find her at AMY sample ward dot org and at Amy R. S Ward. Thank you for fun. Provocative, interesting conversation. Thank you.

[00:49:41.35] spk_0:
Thank you. As always.

[00:51:25.96] spk_1:
Next week it’s Jean Takagi returns. It’s Jean Takagi. Next week Jean Takagi returns with your one hour legal audit. Who writes this copy this middling lackluster coup. This is why I need an intern. I haven’t put the word out for interns lately, oddly nobody ever applies, but I need an intern to blame for this middling copy. So if you know someone who wants to be blamed, introduce them to me. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant End in Blue. Creative Producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott. Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Yeah. What?

Nonprofit Radio for February 7, 2020: Neurodiversity

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My Guest:

Peter Shankman: Neurodiversity
Up to 30% of the workforce will be neurodivergent in the next 10-15 years. What is it and how can you get the competitive edge today by taking advantage of these specially-talented workers’ skills? Peter Shankman returns to share his quite personal explanation.




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[00:00:14.44] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:00:16.49] spk_3:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the

[00:00:19.68] spk_2:
other 95%

[00:01:18.98] spk_3:
on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our fourth show in the Innovators. Siri’s neural diversity up to 30% of the workforce will be neuro divergent in the next 10 to 15 years. What is it and how can you get the competitive edge today by taking advantage of these especially talented workers skills, Peter Shankman returns to the show to share his quite personal explanation. Tony Stake to planned giving for the decade were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. It’s

[00:01:19.11] spk_2:
a pleasure

[00:02:17.54] spk_3:
to welcome back to the show. Peter Shankman. The New York Times has called him a rock star who knows everything about social media and then some. He’s a five time best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker, focusing on customer service and the new and emerging customer and neuro atypical economy. He’s recognized worldwide for radically new ways of thinking about the customer experience, social media, PR marketing, advertising and a DHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. As he checks his email on his on his watch on the new neuro diverse economy, he was the founder of Haro. Help! A reporter out. He leads Shank Mines, Breakthrough Network on online mastermind of thought leaders, business experts and change makers. Peter’s got a podcast faster than normal. It’s the number one podcast on a DHD focusing on the superpowers and gif ts of having a faster than normal brain. He’s a father, a two time Ironman triathlete in a Class B licensed skydiver. He’s at shankman dot com And at Peter Shankman. Welcome back to the show.

[00:02:27.53] spk_0:
Good to be back. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:38.14] spk_3:
Thank you. Pleasure. I’m glad you’re in the neighborhood is easy because you walk over on a Not a bad winter day. Not too cold. Yeah. Yeah. Um So

[00:02:38.85] spk_2:
you’re a

[00:02:47.83] spk_3:
diversity, I guess. Obviously the place to start is to define it. You have a whole podcast about it. What are we talking about? What fits under it? No. Diversity

[00:02:58.70] spk_0:
is any kind of faster brain, any kind of different. You know, growing up a DHD didn’t exist. 80 evening, Just, uh, in the public schools in New York. It was Sit down. You dropped in the glasses, Eat. Yeah, and I have had a very large dose of that, and it

[00:03:05.17] spk_6:
caused a lot

[00:03:13.11] spk_0:
of grief. You know, I had a school was not easy for me. And it wasn’t that I didn’t want to focus. It wasn’t that I didn’t want to pay attention. It wasn’t that I enjoyed acting out in class, but I did enjoy a glass. But, you know, it was best mates. Enjoyed it very much so. And what I

[00:03:18.58] spk_6:
realized. No, I’m looking back on it. That’s exactly

[00:04:45.00] spk_0:
it was I when I could make the kids laugh. That gave me a hit of dopamine, and that gave me a hit of adrenaline that give me a hit of serotonin and all those things that the newer, diverse brain, especially the DHD brain, doesn’t make enough of. Right. Um, when you’re a DHD, you have about 25% less of these chemicals than a normal regular speed person. And so your constant looking for ways, not intentionally. Just subconsciously you’re looking for ways to replenish those. Yeah, simply the rain in to get you know what? When when a regular person says Okay, I have I have math class. I don’t like math, but I’ll get through it, you know, they sit there and they say, Okay, I gotta learn this stuff and they look at it and they focus on it. They learn it. You know, when I do something I don’t like it. It requires a commitment and a set up to get it done. You know, I don’t, um things I don’t enjoy, but I have to do is part of life. I have to, uh, uh promote myself into a different way of being to get it done. It’s why I’ll never hold a meeting. Ah, where we sit down, right? None of my one of my meetings or sit down meetings. They are either stand up or walk around meetings. I people have called me the Aaron Sorkin of meetings and that that we will do a walk and talk for 30 minutes as opposed to, you know, Let’s go. Let’s go get a coffee and we’ll clear across town and coffee. That’s something we have to walk to get our meeting them, but it’s It’s better and more conductive and more conducive than sitting there in a room. You know, if I have to meet with people who I don’t have a choice and they’re gonna force me to sit down, you know, I’ll walk beforehand. I’ll take the, you know, take the stairs. I just don’t like that, You know, I walked over here, by the way, the west on highway to go three blocks

[00:05:05.84] spk_3:
that way, west

[00:05:06.46] spk_0:
way west to come back just to get a good 20 minute hit. Okay? Don’t mean I was

[00:05:10.89] spk_3:
wondering. I was starting to feel a little nervous that I was forced to

[00:05:16.14] spk_6:
sit for an hour. Now I got Yeah, we’re scared me, you know, in hours and hours. A

[00:05:19.41] spk_0:
bit much every interview that we doing on the podcast. We’ve had over 200 of them. We’ve had a CEO’s that Tony Robbins, Seth Godin, Keith Crouch. You found a doctor sign. Dave Needleman found a JetBlue Joe dissent in front of the Spartan race. The band shined down had countless really, really smart people. And each podcast is only 20 minutes because, well, a few day and so, you know, to to to sit someone like me sitting for an hour.

[00:05:43.56] spk_6:
You know, isn’t this really the worst thing? The world?

[00:05:45.21] spk_0:
But it’s it requires a commitment requires two requires a way to make the brain work for me.

[00:05:52.02] spk_3:
And so that was the walk.

[00:05:52.95] spk_6:
That was a lot

[00:05:53.41] spk_3:
of the preparation. Exactly. Thank you for doing it.

[00:05:55.98] spk_6:
And I have No, I

[00:06:52.74] spk_0:
have I have Ah, very, you know, sort of fundamental, um, things that I have to do every day to to to simply get myself through the day to have good days. You know, every morning has to start with exercise being a single dad. I can’t get the gym every day, have a pelt on bike, and I’m on that bike. On the days that my daughter, which is a little over half the week, um, I am on that bike, usually around 4 a.m. On my bike for an hour and 1/2. It’s obviously not to lose weight, you know, if it is, I’m doing something wrong, but it’s it’s to keep the brain focus. And I’ll do, you know, 2025 miles, and I will, you know, get off the bike. And I’m just I’m I’m perfectly wired. Right. I have a phenomenal way of of sort of approaching the world, which is a lot easier and better than if I didn’t do it, you know, and I sort of went in a little muddled a little, you know, not short myself. It it’s my form of medication. And

[00:06:55.39] spk_6:
I’m not anti

[00:06:58.07] spk_0:
met. I mean, I have a prescription. I take it every once in a while. I’m not on it today. You call

[00:07:00.14] spk_3:
it your expense account.

[00:07:01.37] spk_6:
Yeah. My expense account

[00:07:18.05] spk_0:
medication. When my assistant sits me down, says if you don’t get me these receipts and find the stuff, you have to get me. You know, the next today, you know you’re not gonna get paid. Your clients are competitive. Okay? I’ll sit down and I’ll figure out, uh, you know. Okay, let’s take this pill, sit down, get the work done. In focus of Other than that, I prefer to get my my medication in more natural ways. The exercises. Skydiving, public speaking. Things

[00:07:32.39] spk_3:
like you told psychology today that to write a book? If you If you have a writing project, you book a round trip flight Asia.

[00:08:23.61] spk_0:
Three of my last five trips have three minutes. Five books have been written entirely in airplanes. The last two. I booked a flight to Asia with no real reason. Euthanasia other than to write the book. Um, I actually wrote zombie loyalists. I sat down on the plane. Um, booked. It looks like the Asia it was doing two weeks haven’t read anything. I did all the research hadn’t relating. Booked a flight to Asia road chapters one through five in the flat out landed in Tokyo. Went to lounge to the shower. Have a cup of coffee. Get back on the same plane. Same seat two hours later. You’re not stay overnight, even stay the night. Wrote chapter 6 to 10 on the flight home. And, um, you know, went, uh, they got held up by, um, homeland Security for two hours, wondering why I was nature for 90 minutes and never actually immigration something that proved interesting, but it sure was running a bucket.

[00:08:25.53] spk_2:
Now I would say that That sounds to me like incredible focus.

[00:08:45.92] spk_0:
Well, the beauty of a DHD is that you can hyper focus. You can hyper focus. If you like to do something, you can sit down. And just if the situation is right and you’ve given yourself the right of it, sit down and you know I’ll put together a 1600 piece Lego Lego set in three hours. Yeah, I love doing it, but you know, if it’s something I don’t like doing, you have to. I have to make it work and it’s It’s not easy

[00:09:00.19] spk_3:
now. Five years ago you were You were with us was roughly five years. We’re talking about zombie loyalists. Um, uh, do you I gotta just focus back. Or do you still you still in Morton’s? I’m

[00:09:05.15] spk_6:
still martignetti Angeles way just

[00:09:13.73] spk_3:
played. We just played the show like, four or five weeks ago so listeners will know that it’s a story in Newark Airport. Yeah,

[00:09:47.83] spk_0:
so fan of Morton’s, you know, still go there quite frequently. It’s it’s phenomenal steaks. They still treat me very well. Um, I It’s funny over time that people still tell that story and and it’s still you know, not so much a customer is its customer experience. Not. It’s not PR. It’s not. Social media is custom experience, right? They were a little bit out of their way, and that’s not their job. The job isn’t going to take the airport. The job is that clear right? Have a great time. And so so So they’re still very good at that. Have they gotten bad at that? You know, they were bought by a company called Landry’s, and Landers owns them now. And

[00:09:52.37] spk_3:
Texas? Yeah, let’s take Texas

[00:09:54.64] spk_0:
unfortunate. Unfortunately, Andrews is still very, very, very big on customer experience, so it’s still a good place to

[00:10:39.04] spk_3:
go. Okay, let me take our first break. Wegner-C.P.As. You know, they go beyond the numbers. They’ve got videos. Do you have immigrant employees? They’ve got I nine tips. They’ve got high impact grant proposals. Also sexual harassment, awareness, video and others. You’ll find them at wegner-C.P.As dot com. Quick resource is and recorded events. Now let’s go back to neuro diversity. Peter Shankman checks is, uh, Texas. Take it. Work email. He does, uh, taking advantage of Ah, 32nd. I didn’t tell you was only 32nd break. Each break is doing well. The next one’s about a minute and 1/2. I

[00:10:41.29] spk_0:
could write a book,

[00:10:48.14] spk_3:
book your flight. All right. You could book the flight to write the book. Um, now you mentioned single Dad. Something has happened in the past five years. I’m sorry about

[00:10:51.18] spk_6:
that. I think things happen

[00:10:52.78] spk_3:
for a reason.

[00:11:05.33] spk_0:
The universe in its one told the way it should. I’m still very good friends of my ex. We have a great relationship, but I don’t have Thio. You know, they’re just certain times that you realize that that, um, the universe unfolds like Is that the way it should? And so I love being a single bad. My daughter is six and 1/2. Um, God help you if you forget the half. Um, she’s not just six, uh, give Aquino yesterday the Lego. And so when she comes home tonight, there are 15 new Lego sets.

[00:11:23.07] spk_3:
That school was a three hour keynote where

[00:11:27.52] spk_6:
it was 45 minutes. But it was very cool to hang out there

[00:11:29.40] spk_3:
and it couldn’t be done.

[00:12:51.12] spk_0:
I have. I am now the one of the first owners of the new international Space station Lego, which doesn’t hit stores. You’re worried. You’re very excited about that. So now it’s fun. It’s, uh, you know, I I love, try to explain. It was fun to watch her. Don’t explain what Daddy does for a living. Daddy talks to people, you know, It’s pretty much what I do. Yeah. On. You know how me since it in office of Daddy talks to people I like. I like my title better, but, you know, it’s it’s fun. It’s It does provides some interesting, uh, logistical, uh, intrigue. You know, I I know all single parents record. A lot of my travel is international. Um, I you know, I give speeches over the world and, you know, a couple of scholars and Asia. I gave a talk, um, on a Friday. And so I left Wednesday morning, uh, dropped my daughter off at school Wednesday morning. Went right to work. Um, booked a flight. Uh, are you boarded? A flight Wednesday at around 11 to Tokyo landed Thursday night at 7 p.m. Um, spoke. You know, went to those health, got some sleep, woke up, went to the gym, spoke at 9 a.m. Friday morning I was taken to the airport, got on a 2 p.m. Flight are four PM flight from Tokyo on Friday afternoon and landed in New York with time change at 4 p.m. Find infinite. And when I’m picking my daughter and you know, I was a zombie, but I didn’t miss a night with her. You know, it’s tough, but it’s a lot of fun. And, um, I couldn’t imagine, you know, doing anything

[00:13:05.30] spk_3:
Excellent. What else besides a DHD falls under no

[00:13:09.50] spk_6:
diversity in any kind

[00:13:39.03] spk_0:
of brain that is different than what we consider normal. So, you know, we’re looking at a Ph. D a d d. Autism executive function spending on the spectrum Asperger’s things like that and what we’re finding, and what studies have finding is that, um when creative people who are and almost everyone with a no diversion brain is creative, when these great people are given the ability to work in a way that works for them, right? Productivity goes to the roof

[00:13:40.18] spk_6:
dyslexia, just like she is

[00:13:46.11] spk_0:
included as well. And productivity goes through the roof. And, um, but you have to understand how people work, not everyone.

[00:13:50.14] spk_4:
Um uh

[00:14:12.08] spk_0:
works the same way, you know, And and, uh, the premise of we all have to get in at 9 a.m. And punch in and do that, you know, is really a thing of the past. And what companies are finding is if they allow their employees to, um, work the way that works for them. Company productivity goes to the roof. We’ve seen that countless times, over and over and over again. You know, you look at a company that has these rigid rules, which is a company that allows people to do work the way they want to and the people who do it the way they want to tend to the company, send a much more productive and generate more revenue unless cost.

[00:14:27.58] spk_3:
Okay. And this includes the newer, diverse community

[00:16:30.51] spk_0:
don’t know much about. You know, you’re looking at a workforce 25 to 30% want provide motivation. 25 to 30% of the workforce is gonna be no divers. And these are the people who are your creative right. These the people who are coming up with new ways to work new ideas, these the ones who are creating who are discovering all these sort of things. Good friend of mine is a PhD candidate at Harvard, and, um, she is very much engaged, and she, you know, they work in a lab where she she’s a PhD in the something with skin, huh? I’m totally spacing, not dermatology. I’m spacing. Basically, she she works with skin cells, and, um, you know, so she says a lot of time on her feet in a lab, you know, mixing skin cells, whatever does they dio? And then, um, she has to go back and analyze the data and what she does when she analyzed that data, she actually goes into a conference room that no one is in, and we’ll sit with her charts and her laptop in her, grafts on that and do the same thing that she could do at her desk. But her desk is an open floor plan. And even with headphones, she sees people at the corner of her eye walking around this and that and a distraction. And so she goes into a place where she can work and she will be 10 times productive and, you know, 1/3 of the time it would take her to do it or to other people to do it. So you know. And she explained that to her. Her, um, director, You know the labs. Look, look, just trust me this I work better this way. And sure enough, she does. You know, Andi, the her output is is very, very high. Um, but she has to be in that in that zone, you know, that’s my zona focuses an airplane. You know, it’s it’s or, you know, it’s also places where, um I’m able to get the dope mean that I need and then utilize it. So the thing about don’t mean is that once you get a huge hit of it, it doesn’t just go away. All right? You have to disperse it out over several hours has dissipate. So when I go to the drop zone upstate, I’ll take my my parachute, my rig, and I’ll do a jump and I land and I’ll throw my gear in the corner. Tony, re pack up some of you in the corner. Pull up my laptop, right. 10,000 words. Really? Oh, yeah, in like an hour. Yeah,

[00:16:36.85] spk_6:
I after, right after the jump. So you

[00:16:39.50] spk_3:
somewhere and then you know,

[00:16:40.82] spk_0:
I I land at the drop zone carrying my gear into the hangar. I throw in a corner, I pull out my laptop just right of the

[00:16:47.93] spk_3:
drops. Are you already at a building? And you start writing? Yeah,

[00:16:50.30] spk_0:
and I’m sitting up on the floor of my lifetime. I was right because, you know, that’s where I’m just so full of those chemicals. It’s like it’s like it’s like I’ve just done a lot of coke, You know it and it’s great. It’s healthy, a lot healthier than doing a lot of guys suppose for sure. But you know it. You don’t just get rid of it

[00:17:06.28] spk_6:
and all those chemicals in there, because the goal is to

[00:17:08.25] spk_0:
keep you alive. When you’re in the air, right, you’re don’t means you’re turning your gentle and they all are front and center when you’re jumping. Because for someone like me, you know, totally imagine myself without those chemicals.

[00:17:18.02] spk_6:
Okay, out the plane I gotta pull my parachute to look at the sun’s all shiny,

[00:18:18.71] spk_0:
you know? So so the chemicals are there to prevent that on, but when you land, they don’t just go away. You have to dissipate them of several hours. So for me, you know, that’s when I get somebody’s work done. That’s a great man. That’s great story works. It works really well, it’s Ah, it’s Ah, you know, you know where you are. Some people, it’s a run. I’ve done 5 10 mile runs and I’ll come back and be so wired that also dental work as well. Um, I’ll take a shower first, but, you know, it is it does. You’ve got to figure out what works for you and what works for employees, you know? And if you give your employees that ability to do that to to to work in such a way where they can, um, be most beneficial to themselves. You know, that’s the biggest thing we don’t seem to realize is that you know, this whole mentality of all work, work, work. Now, you know, no sleep work is bullshit. You know, if you don’t know how to take care of yourself first, right? If you’re not putting yourself first, if you’re not putting self care first, you know, if you have some of these entrepreneurs out there, you

[00:18:20.40] spk_6:
know, if you have, you know, work for 12 hours. Then you come home. We have to feed your kid if you only have four hours of sleep. Well, sleep two of them. And what you just told someone kill themselves. What is wrong with

[00:18:28.12] spk_0:
you? You gotta focus on yourself. You take care yourself. Self care is massive. Important exercise. Eat a goddamn vegetable. Everyone’s don’t write. Not everything has to come in a burger or a bun.

[00:18:37.93] spk_3:
Yeah, take care of yourself. Then you can

[00:18:41.30] spk_6:
take the oxygen mask their

[00:18:42.14] spk_3:
caregivers for auction parents. Yeah. All right. So how are we doing? Oh, I’m not. I’m too far from my Oh, I was worried about him. I’m too far. Okay, Um,

[00:18:54.34] spk_0:
no one’s ever told me I’m too soft. Uh, the letter.

[00:19:05.43] spk_3:
Let’s Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Beautiful segue way. So let’s talk about employers. Let’s start with the, um, the recruiting. It’s gotta be different than sitting for an interview for 30 or 40 minutes. But

[00:19:10.91] spk_0:
there’s a man who just told me I have to sit here for an hour,

[00:19:12.81] spk_6:
but I would argue that it does. It does have to be fun. Interview. Here’s the thing

[00:19:24.68] spk_0:
about what has to be different you know, you have to understand that the people you’re hiring again, they come from them. 50 years ago, any kind of disability was not talked about, right? I love that episode of Mad Men Where the guys a raging alcoholic and

[00:19:31.97] spk_6:
says, You know, you go away, we’ll tell people you’re on

[00:19:33.77] spk_0:
your own. You know, in a client leave for three months ago

[00:19:37.06] spk_6:
upstate you come back a new

[00:19:39.75] spk_0:
man, you know, telling people your client leave for three months. Three

[00:19:42.41] spk_6:
hysterical people half the shorts I own probably state

[00:19:49.75] spk_0:
that I’m a th day. My favorite shirt is a DHD in the in the font of a C D c h d. I’m on a highway to oh, squirrel, you know? And so it’s it’s it’s that waiter,

[00:19:56.45] spk_3:
huh? Wait, what?

[00:19:57.03] spk_0:
Highway to squirrel? Squirrel. And so, you know, I love that I love that premise and and the fact that we are sort of out there and talking about it and proud of how our brains work, you know? So

[00:20:08.74] spk_6:
before you can even start recruiting,

[00:20:36.83] spk_0:
you have to. As a company, you have to understand that you have to own that, you know, and make your workforce a place where the neuro diverse want to work because they have the opportunity to go anywhere now and, you know, much like it comes down. University. Essentially what back in the nineties and earlytwo thousands, diversity was was skin color, and then it became sexual orientation, you know, and and now it has to become no diversity.

[00:20:37.64] spk_3:
Is this not covered under the Americans disability? That it is now is

[00:22:07.53] spk_0:
not so you know it. Perhaps it will be, but the you know and I’m not a lawyer any like that. But the premise have, Doctor, there’s say that more often, but the premises is that you have to. I understand that if you’re hiring, you know, people need to work in a certain way, and if you are willing to give them the opportunity, they will impress you. Every single time. I had a I had a I was doing consulting gig for a company big fast food chain, didn’t know them, and, um, they were trying to figure out how to get had a cater to you, the New Rivers market and, you know, let’s go and let’s have lunch at your restaurants. We went into one of the restaurants 135 items on the menu in front over ads interspersed with commercials on a digital board. I want to blow my brains out, you know, walk into you. So I said, OK, let’s go. Someone’s on the West Coast. Let’s go somewhere else now and let’s walk down the street to in and out Burger, where the menu is hamburger cheeseburger fries shake, right? You see the Peacefulness here? The com That’s the one you know you have to understand. Sometimes the concept of choice is death sentence, right? And so how can you give your employees that which they need? I joke if I’m dating someone Are you know, said this summer my wife the time she never really understood it. But the premises, like, don’t. If we’re gonna go out for dinner and I ask you what you want, don’t

[00:22:10.92] spk_6:
say Oh, just pick something.

[00:22:22.63] spk_0:
Anything’s fine because you will wind up trying monkey brains. You know, I guarantee that you know, instead say, I’m feeling either Italian or Chinese. Great. You’ve just given me two options. I will pick one, right, But don’t Don’t tell me or whatever you want because that’s

[00:22:25.31] spk_3:
not walk up and down Ninth at

[00:22:26.63] spk_6:
45 minutes. Exactly.

[00:22:39.01] spk_0:
Zimbabwe. Exactly. So be aware of of how you’re working with these people talking to them how you were doing with them. You know, for instance, I have a lot of clients who are their famous

[00:22:41.26] spk_6:
catchphrase. I just get anyone

[00:22:58.25] spk_0:
can get it. No rush. Well, that’s that’s That’s not okay, because I will never get it, because you’ll be the most important thing on my plate until the next important thing. So I require every client to give me a deadline. I require my assistant to get me a deadline for every single thing I have to do. Actually, I need

[00:23:02.34] spk_6:
this Thursday, 3 p.m. Okay, if I know is there’s a big BM. I’m gonna get it done. If you tell me you can get it whenever, okay, I’ll get to it. And you’re

[00:23:05.32] spk_0:
never getting that thing. So you have to give me a deadline

[00:23:08.64] spk_3:
on part of this preparation is sensitizing the other employees in the in the office, in the in the organization as to what? What you expect.

[00:23:18.80] spk_6:
Yeah, you know, it’s not. It’s not like you need to widen

[00:23:44.23] spk_0:
your doors because you bring in a wheelchair, right? It’s very, very subtle. A lot of times, Um, I have a friend of mine who has a sign on on his because he’s standing there and he’s sitting in his desk and it’s an open floor plan. She has headphones on, and he has a sign that he puts on his back. Um, you may bother me. You may not bother me, right? And if it says you may not bother me, people know to email him or leave him alone. If it says you may bother me, he’s working on something he can’t be interrupted for because thing about that is that the way the brain works is that every time you get disrupted and that could be a something simple text or email or ding from your devices. Yeah, the second you get that ding, it takes roughly 24 minutes to get back into a level of what’s called deep work. Cal Cal Norris wrote a book called Deport 24 minutes, 24 minutes. So

[00:24:08.58] spk_6:
if you get two e mails a day or two miles an hour,

[00:24:16.95] spk_0:
you’re getting nothing done. E mean slack has destroyed more productivity than an atom bomb. It is amazing how many

[00:24:20.88] spk_6:
we love slack. We use a religiously well,

[00:24:22.53] spk_0:
your productivity is going down and down. You know, my ex ex

[00:24:27.15] spk_6:
wife uses that productivity tool. It’s not. I watched her productivity goto hell when she’s using it, because she she she sits there and she she gets a response. Delicate responded right away. Well, now she’s just

[00:24:37.14] spk_0:
completely lost the train of thought 40 was working on, and it’s not gonna come back. And

[00:24:40.84] spk_6:
next thing you know, it’s two hours later. It’s

[00:24:59.85] spk_0:
lunchtime, you know, again, that’s my yet. Ah, lot of times no diverse people are gonna put rules in the place that work for them. You know, I have meetings on one day a week and they’re walking meetings like I said, but I don’t have meetings every single day. You will never catch me for a random coffee, right? You’re not gonna have coffee at 2 p.m. On Wednesday because that means I have to leave. I have to get ready to leave around one. I have to leave my apartment. 1 15 I have in my office. I have to get their meat. You it to meet from 2 to 30 to 45 Walk back to my office, Sit back down, get to It’s

[00:25:18.05] spk_6:
not gonna happen, you know, instead of going to meet you, now let’s do 15

[00:25:18.83] spk_0:
miles will head home. I’ll head home. I’m not gonna be productive at home. And I would be in the office, so we’re not gonna be like that. You wanna meet

[00:25:23.42] spk_6:
with me? Let’s meet at six a.

[00:25:27.28] spk_0:
M. For coffee or spin class or run in the park or something like that. And I will

[00:25:30.07] spk_6:
do that

[00:26:07.35] spk_0:
with you on that. It’s actually wonderfully. Ah, Darwinist IQ is well in that Those rules. If you want to meet me, we will meet before 6 a.m. for coffee for a workout. I’ll even take you to cryotherapy. Um, the greatest thing about that is that it Dominus tickly eliminates 97% of the people who said they don’t have meetings with me because if they can’t get up, if it’s not worth it to them to get up it 5 a.m. For him to meet with me. Whatever chance I don’t work with him. And so it eliminates the majority of people out there, which is really coming in the day. I hate people. An

[00:26:08.82] spk_2:
enormous part of

[00:26:10.89] spk_6:
less People have to deal with them.

[00:26:17.99] spk_3:
That’s why they’re spitting them to death and offering quite exactly cryotherapy on your terms.

[00:26:20.59] spk_2:
So a lot. So I understand.

[00:26:22.04] spk_3:
A lot of it is You have to recognize for yourself what helps

[00:26:25.70] spk_6:
is the thing you ever do you understand what works for you, right? I

[00:27:05.54] spk_0:
mean, you know, I rarely drink. I’m not gonna say I never drink occasionally, everybody, it’s very rare because I don’t have one drink. You know, I have six drinks because they’re there, and it’s very easy not to have that first drink. It’s after the first drink, but it’s very hard to sing the second time. Yeah, and so I joke. I have two speeds and only to speed. They have NAMA stay and I’ll cut a bitch and there’s no middle ground there. There’s no I don’t have a middle ground, you know You’re not going to see me. Okay, I’ll have What would Leo McGarry say in the West Wing is I don’t understand people who leave wine. You have a glass and leave half a glass. One of table. What’s wrong with him, right? Why wouldn’t you want that all the time? And it’s hundreds of true. And so what I find is that it’s much easier for me to have a club soda and not have that first drink. Um, because also, I have a drink and I have five drinks. Then

[00:27:17.15] spk_6:
I go home. I’m not drunk.

[00:27:18.84] spk_0:
I’m not, you know, slurring my words. I’m not, uh, pillaging villages. Really that. But I go to bed a little later than I want to. I wake up a little later. I might not have time for the gym when I’m trying to work out. Then my day is less than you know. And that’s why I get into that system in the first place.

[00:27:34.04] spk_3:
So, uh, let’s take our like, our second break, which is, uh, about a minute and 1/2.

[00:27:39.27] spk_6:
I’m getting water. Water?

[00:29:30.84] spk_3:
Yes, absolutely. Um, quote We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain software. It’s rare to encounter a problem with it, but they are always there to help walk. Be through it. Well, end quote I paraphrase a couple of words, but nothing substantive, certainly from Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. More raves about the customer service at Cougar Mountain Accounting Software. They have a free 60 day trial for listeners. It’s on the listener landing page, which is at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant now. Time for Tony’s Take Two. Your Decade Plan for planned giving. I put a good amount of thought into if, where you could be by 2029 if you start your plans giving fundraising program in 2020. Don’t just think of a year long plan. Think of the decade. In 10 years you’ll be You’ll have an enormous amount of people in your recognition society, which means you’ve got enormous amount of planned GIF ts. You’ll be recognizing revenue from the from the program. You’ll be offering a lot of different vehicles way beyond just charitable bequests, which is a place to start. Um, you might even by that time have either have or have the evidence that you should have a full time director of planned giving you can be. You could be very far along and planned giving fundraising by 2029 if you start in 2020 and I lay out a decade long plan in the video, which is your That’s it. You’re decade plan for planned giving, and it is at Tony’s take to know that is Tony’s take to the video. Is that tony-martignetti dot com? Now let’s go back to Nora. Diversity

[00:29:32.99] spk_0:
the pill because I have some

[00:29:34.53] spk_2:
I’m feeling. No, you said you make it sound. Not so bad I joined

[00:29:46.79] spk_3:
the club, Our fourth entry in The Innovators, Siri’s with Peter Shankman about emerging neural divergent economies on the workforce. Um,

[00:29:49.32] spk_2:
yeah, no, I mean when you have it

[00:29:50.43] spk_3:
under management and you and you have figured out what?

[00:29:53.50] spk_6:
Well, that’s it. You’re out. There was a scientist

[00:30:03.92] spk_0:
once who came out, but don’t don’t. Scientists came up with this term of somebody call type type T and there’s tape, Tea party, you know, you you take These are type B’s in the tape tee, and then he divided that in taped a pilot of type B negative type B

[00:30:11.87] spk_6:
positive. Basically type tease

[00:30:23.70] spk_0:
the ones who take risks. They like to you know, they’re a DHD. Their brains produce less mon ami inhibitors than no people motto. Motto mean mono amine ox. Today’s inhibitors Okay, I type probably totally butchered, butchered that term. But again, that’s why I’m not a doctor.

[00:30:30.06] spk_6:
So the top, that’s the stuff that makes us

[00:33:00.44] spk_0:
don’t mean right. And if you have, people like me have 25% less of them. That’s why we do things to you know, that’s what we got. That’s why we did. But there’s two into this scientist, uh, theorized that there were two types of type t type B positive and type B negative in Tempe. Positive people who get that I don’t mean and the adrenaline that search on those modeling oxidase inhibitors in positive ways. Right? So I speak publicly, you know, be on stage in front of 10,000 people. I’m high as a kite. Its greatest feeling in the world. Ah, skydiving exercise. Whatever. The guest of big, there are people who get those negative ways. Um, you know, crime, uh, drugs, whatever. And you know that how people you know, that there’s an estimation that 75% or higher number of people in prison number of males in prison are undiagnosed. 80 80 80. You know, it makes perfect sense, right? You’re You’re bored. You’re not excited. You need something So let’s, you know, get steal this car through bad bag, right? And so So it comes down to sort of what you can learn about yourself. You know, looking back on my schooling and realizing I mean, I I teach. Sometimes the teachers would talk about me and they couldn’t believed they were talking about the same kid because my English teacher would have nothing but rave reviews about how amazing I wasn’t how much how attended. I wasn’t how focused I wasn’t how much I look, how great of a writer I was. Mad teachers be like It’s not the same kid. He’s nothing but a distraction. He causes he, you know it needs to sit. Tony bugs the whole class. He doesn’t, you know. And it was like they were literally that. How are you talking about the same child? Campy. And it’s true, because in English, I was, you know, put put, uh, God, what’s the book? Black Boy by Richard Wright. You to read the freshman in high school, and I was just enthralled with that book I read, apparently every year. Now it’s such an amazing book, and you know, I remember reading, getting to Shakespeare and and pirate and just, you know, being they have to have to tap me on the shoulder to get me out of class because my next class, because I just be so enthralled. But I was sitting in math class, you know, I learned that you could sink your watch to the the Bell system. And so, you know, I’d be in math class. And then just for fun, just to mess with a teacher, I’d go 54321 and the Bellagio off right at a job, drove the teacher

[00:33:11.47] spk_6:
crazy. But I love

[00:33:34.06] spk_0:
that it comes down to understanding that some things you love, some things you don’t How do you change your brain so that the things you don’t love you can still do well. And that’s what um, uh, employers. I need to learn as well. Yeah, that not everything their employees do their employees and love. So how can you give them an environment that benefits them with stuff that they don’t love? They could still get through and do well

[00:33:49.62] spk_3:
first. Thank you for talking directly to the listeners who are neural diverse. More importantly, you’re motivating the individuals to listen. You want to talk about the organization,

[00:34:11.07] spk_0:
listeners. Kids are important as well, because right now they’re our listeners. Your show Who’s Children have just been diagnosed, like today or last week or whatever with a d d or a D h d. And they’re freaking out. The parents are freaking out more than the kids. And so to the parents, I tell you right now that your kid is not broken, pardon my French kids fucking awesome and and And your kid is gonna change the world. And you know, you don’t sit there and say, Oh my God, he’s not like everyone else. Be thankful he’s not like everyone else. Because if I was like everyone else, we wouldn’t be sitting here. I wouldn’t be on this on your show. I’d be working in an office somewhere and pretty miserable,

[00:34:25.86] spk_3:
Miserable. There wouldn’t be. Would not have been a hard right.

[00:34:27.73] spk_0:
No, that wouldn’t be Harold or anything like that. So, you know, I am so thankful every day on it again, growing up, a lot of it sucks because we didn’t know what it was. You know? I remember my dad.

[00:34:37.16] spk_6:
Why can’t you just listen in. Glad who knew? You know, I couldn’t. And and fortunately,

[00:34:49.03] spk_0:
we have much more knowledge now of you know what goes on with this button? Yeah. Thio To be able to have a different brand. I’m thankful for that every single day.

[00:35:06.74] spk_3:
So let’s talk organizationally. What can we do? Two way talk some about the preparation but the interviewing getting encouraging, people Thio come on. And proving to the individual that this is a place where you want to work

[00:35:47.34] spk_0:
Explain that you’re you’re company. Everyone says their companies different. Show that your company is different. You know, they’re some companies have completely outlawed meetings, right? Completely banned sitting in the conference room there cos a band power point. And I think that’s pretty the best thing you could possibly do, right? Who the hell wants to sit in the meeting for two hours looking at slide after slide and listen to a person explain those slides. You know, I’d rather jump out the window. So what can you do for your, um, for your employees to show not just tell, but to show that it’s a positive place to work. Right. Um, are you gonna let your

[00:35:48.57] spk_6:
and Santos about Oh, you’re going from home. Well, that’s great,

[00:35:51.27] spk_0:
But are you gonna give them the tools to do that right? It’s one

[00:35:54.95] spk_6:
thing to say Sure work from home. But home might not be the best

[00:36:15.13] spk_0:
place for people, either. I have a friend of mine who loves working. He lives in California and he loves working from parks, right? He’ll go like a national park and he’ll bring. He’ll have a wireless connection satellite, whatever Internet and, uh, you know, climb a mountain. And I said, the top of mountains work for, like, eight hours. Expect other people to go upto. You know, what’s

[00:36:17.16] spk_6:
the meaning of life? Nothing. But he said,

[00:36:18.60] spk_0:
their legs crossed with his laptop, getting work done, breathing fresh air. And he

[00:36:26.44] spk_6:
loves it. He’s so ridiculously productive, right? Enormously productive. Unbelievable. Yeah, he’s he’s returning. And he’s creative creative director Chris China, and he’s returning art

[00:36:31.45] spk_0:
artwork to the client that you know would blow you away. And he’s doing it because he’s in his his happy place.

[00:36:46.89] spk_3:
Yeah, um, and then and keeping people too, You know, you’ve shown them at the at the outset that this is a place that they want to be, um,

[00:36:47.45] spk_6:
keeping people in them. It’s important you have to be able to think about

[00:37:01.21] spk_0:
no diversity is that it’s fluid, right? It’s not If you try to grab on to it, you know, like a newtonian fluid that if you put your hand on very slowly, you can movie, handle the bottom. If you hit it really hard, you can’t even get 1/4 inch down, right? Basically, take some water and corn starch and mix them up, and you can create non Newtonian fluids. And the A

[00:37:11.78] spk_6:
D. H. D.

[00:37:12.19] spk_0:
And new diversity is similar in that if you

[00:37:14.08] spk_6:
try to hold on

[00:37:42.29] spk_0:
to it, you try to position them in one path where they’re not allowed to move. You’re gonna find resistance, right? But if you let it flow through you and and you understand, that’s a fluid system that does have to move, and that change has to happen and you have to be able to adapt to that, you’ll be a lot better. Offices, organization, you know, they’re gonna They’re gonna be times where, um, there are days when I wake up and no amount of exercise is going to get my focus on track for whatever reason, right, mate, And sleep well, whatever. But I’m not. I’m just not gonna be productive. And I know that. And I will tell Megan I’m like, Okay, you know what? I’m having a day Cancel my meetings. I’m going off the drop zone or I’m going swimming on workout.

[00:37:55.88] spk_3:
It’s that last minute.

[00:37:57.02] spk_6:
Yeah, and And I’ll feel it. I wake up thinking about

[00:37:59.93] spk_0:
some things off today, and

[00:38:02.16] spk_6:
that’s an end. It doesn’t happen. Rarely happens. But it does happen. Right? Um, it happened

[00:38:06.33] spk_0:
like, I think less and I was like, October. Um, and

[00:38:09.01] spk_6:
I felt that I just woke up like you know what? I

[00:38:17.46] spk_0:
got nothing. I got nothing here. Megan, I have a meeting. 11. Do me a favor and cancel it. I’m going to the gym. Like what? It was like I don’t need a day. So I went to the gym. I did like

[00:38:20.47] spk_3:
she knows you by now.

[00:38:21.22] spk_6:
Yeah, I did like 10,000

[00:38:36.45] spk_0:
meter swim. Ah, I did like half an hour on the rower. You know, I did the bike, and I just That was what I could do right. And so, as an employer, you need to understand that there are gonna be times when you’re, you know, you call the mental health days in a mental health day. Well, that’s real, you know, and a Zen employer, you have to be flexible enough to allow for that. And the

[00:38:43.91] spk_6:
nice thing is, is

[00:38:52.07] spk_0:
that when you do allow for it, you’ll find that your employees not, um they don’t take advantage of you. They might take advantage of the health day every once in a while and

[00:38:55.30] spk_6:
say no, any today I’ll take a day.

[00:39:05.97] spk_0:
But when you give that more studies and more studies have shown that when you give them the ability to make their own choices right, they’re not gonna screw you more often than not, the non chemistry

[00:39:08.44] spk_3:
something you alluded to is, you know, like the typical career path they your neuro diverse, may not necessarily want to be promoted,

[00:39:21.62] spk_0:
right. There are people who are in positions that they’re really great and they want to stay there. Um, you

[00:39:22.06] spk_6:
know, it’s something else

[00:39:32.00] spk_0:
to consider for millions of years of evolution. Millions years, we hunted, and that’s how we got our food and we would run after a saber toothed tiger. And if we killed it, we’d eat. And if we didn’t kill it, we wouldn’t eat. We’d starve. And so we became very adept at short bursts of energy and short bursts of focus Right where we kill this tiger. And then

[00:39:47.20] spk_6:
we have, like, three or four days just,

[00:39:48.13] spk_0:
you know, eat. And she’ll whenever and there’s the food started to disappear Go battle. It would hunt

[00:39:53.42] spk_6:
again. Then we discovered

[00:39:57.29] spk_0:
agriculture. But 1100 years ago, and we just get the hell

[00:39:58.12] spk_6:
out 100

[00:40:11.87] spk_0:
years in the history of our existence is, you know, less than the width of a period on a full novel. And so, if you have to imagine, if you’re thinking about, um why why are we just gonna go?

[00:40:13.48] spk_6:
Why are we discovering it now? Are we seeing so

[00:41:10.30] spk_0:
much more of it now? Because you know what to look for. It’s always been there looking Einstein. Divinci Minutes, people, classic eighties. You no question about it. Um what? We understand what to look for now, you know, And in the course of human history were so far, are so so just at the nano pubescent era. We haven’t even started. You know, if you go down the line of of human growth, we’re just now barely beginning to crack the surfaces to what’s out there. And so, you know, if you well, we’ve had a 100 years of farming that’s nothing. In the in the history of the grand scheme of time, there’s nothing. And so you’re taking millions of people who grew their entire lineage, You know, that the entire human race was based on going out hunting, farming, you know, hunting. Then all of

[00:41:11.11] spk_6:
a sudden, the last second you change. Okay, Don’t hunt. Now sit down and farm.

[00:41:39.01] spk_0:
Well, you know, we’re gonna get fat, and we have a lot of energy that we need to dispel some other way, and we’re not going to able to do that. Lookit, lookit, history. Look. Att. The Romans look at the Europe in the 12th century, the only people who are fat with the kings because everyone else was working and they were out there. No hunting and gathering of it, you know, And then over time, what we’re seeing now is, you know, it’s so much the

[00:41:42.59] spk_6:
other thing was also Is

[00:42:00.28] spk_0:
that the rise of of bad for us? Food flat. But a word is playoff proliferating. Um, you don’t see that in ah, in countries that have less fast food options.

[00:42:01.44] spk_3:
Although we’ve us has done a good

[00:42:25.06] spk_0:
job, We explored everywhere. Yeah, bad food. You see all the stomachs growing in other countries as well. But, you know, we didn’t have that 1000 years ago. Either we had healthy. You know, I joked that I tried to eat food that if my grandmother back when she was, like, six years old in 1980 whatever. If she wouldn’t have recognized his food, I’ll try not to eat it right. You know, she look a cheating with, you know, but she understands the potato is she understands what? You know Broccoli. Is

[00:42:34.15] spk_3:
that it? Michael Pollan. Did you steal that from? You have only eat foods that your grandmother would recognize.

[00:42:42.50] spk_6:
I know where I got it. Had at first been saying that for years that the two things I say is that and then shop the edges of the supermarket because the outside of the supermarkets world healthy food is the crab is on the inside, right?

[00:42:48.41] spk_2:
What? We still have. All

[00:42:49.25] spk_3:
right. Let me take our last break.

[00:42:50.64] spk_6:
Well, I’m faster than normal. That’s why. That’s why. Good. That’s what happened.

[00:42:57.96] spk_3:
Um, I’m worried. About what? I should let you go. I mean, I

[00:42:59.60] spk_6:
know I’m just one of them entering tax. I

[00:43:57.80] spk_3:
don’t want you to leave. All right. Time last break turned to communications. Did you ever wonder how some nonprofits always get mentioned in the news and it pisses you off? It’s because they well, you could You could use Harrow. You could actually lose Harrow. Help a reporter out. You could also, uh, try to build long term relationships with the journalists that matter to you and turn to can help you do that as well. Their former journalists, including from the Chronicle of Philanthropy, our community. So to build a long term sort of sustaining relationships so that you get great coverage when it matters. When the news breaks and you want to be quoted, you’re the expert. That’s the kind of relationship you want there, a turn hyphen to dot CEO, and we do have butt loads. More time for new road diversity. And Peter Shankman, uh, I’m gonna throw it to you for, you know what else? What else would you like? Nonprofit organizations to know about neural diversity. We certainly talked About what? What the community brings

[00:44:06.90] spk_6:
one of the cool things look

[00:44:15.87] spk_0:
spring about. No diversity, I think, is that we tend to come up with ridiculously brilliant ideas that when you

[00:44:17.37] spk_2:
hear them

[00:44:27.09] spk_0:
for the first time, you might not think of as brilliant. You might think that, you know, we just told you that we’re a spotted owl. Um, but that’s the fun of it is our brains work a little differently and we think, sort of not outside the box. You think outside the park really were in an entirely different world? And one of things that I’ve seen happen many a time is You know, I remember this used to happen all the time with my ex

[00:44:41.48] spk_6:
wife. I I had this great idea, and

[00:44:45.49] spk_0:
you get Okay, here we go, you know, and

[00:44:46.28] spk_6:
she wasn’t angry. Just like Okay, where is this

[00:44:49.66] spk_0:
gonna wind us up? You know, we’re gonna be in Thailand by tomorrow. How do you know what’s gonna happen? Ideas before?

[00:44:53.92] spk_6:
Yeah, and and but the thing is Is

[00:45:21.78] spk_0:
that you know, that concept of great ideas led me to start Harrow, right? It it led me to start a podcast. Everything I’ve done has come from that, because when you’re when you’re near a diverse, you’re so used to getting t getting those weird looking people that you don’t give a shit anymore. And so you have 99.9% of brilliant ideas in this world have never actually been implemented because people are afraid of whether it was gonna pay. It

[00:45:23.19] spk_6:
kills me, right? Like the highway is littered

[00:45:38.16] spk_0:
with brilliant ideas that never saw the light of day because someone was afraid of what people might think When you’re a DHD or no divers, you spent your life with people looking at you and mocking you and talking. So you

[00:45:40.04] spk_6:
just don’t give a shit anymore, so I’ll get out there. Hey, here’s a crazy It may work. It may not have had just many failures have had successes,

[00:45:45.28] spk_0:
but when I’ve had the successes, they’ve really blown up.

[00:46:07.36] spk_3:
Okay, great creativity. And, uh, there’s there’s a very good article that I read preparing from Harvard Business Review it Zo listeners, you might be interested. It’s a May June 2017 issue of Harvard Business Review on I Think It’s called Neuro Diversity. And then there’s you also find Peter Shankman and interviewed by a psychology today. You were profiled,

[00:46:12.75] spk_6:
you know. But that’s the funny thing. Is some problem Mexico today and then I’m also

[00:46:18.98] spk_0:
profiled by, um, by traffic magazine. Right.

[00:46:21.01] spk_6:
And if you look at me, you know damn well that I’m not profit by Travel magazine for like winning traffic runs right? I’m profile, but Athlete magazine is

[00:46:32.88] spk_0:
one of the funniest people in traffic. Because I wrote it, I created a video that was based on the conversations I had with an ex girlfriend who could never understand why I could never go out and have brunch or stay out late on a Saturday night is always had an early ride or late, you know, long run or whatever, and I made

[00:46:44.49] spk_6:
this video and every single traffic related to it and everything. Oh my God, I always think that stuff well, I create

[00:46:50.55] spk_0:
the video because I just Why not? When you’re near a diverse, that’s why not is your favorite word, you know,

[00:46:55.73] spk_6:
why not Let’s try it. Let’s see what happens. You got me in trouble a lot. Growing up,

[00:47:09.60] spk_0:
I, um Yeah, I will never forget. Um, my parents coming home and finding that I had shaved. They’re 11 year old tabby cats. And

[00:47:22.23] spk_6:
what the hell Why would you do I want to see what happened. Nothing good happens when you shave the cat. I want to see what happened. Head to toe ball. That cat was not because I used a trimmer into the cat was drugs because, you know, the feels good. He feels he felt hated

[00:47:35.18] spk_0:
my mom, and that was not very happy. But, you know, growing up once I got what I grew up, everything became the concept of trying something to see what happens is actually very, very beneficial.

[00:47:39.38] spk_3:
Why not? I mean, definitely not profit. I mean, any organization we’re talking about profit could certainly benefit from some thinking around the

[00:47:46.34] spk_0:
question about it. You know

[00:47:47.05] spk_6:
what’s the worst could happen. It fails. Try something else.

[00:47:48.87] spk_2:
Yeah, way. We’ve talked about that on the show.

[00:47:50.60] spk_3:
We’ve had people talk about testing, testing for giving Tuesday, testing your fundraising messages, testing your email, testing other communication channels. That’s that’s what we’re talking about. Just that the

[00:48:03.45] spk_2:
ideas may be a little further out.

[00:48:33.25] spk_0:
The worst fear for me is not failure. It’s it’s not having not having tried something. I When I first got my first Alexa, I had this great idea. My kid was like, I think three years old, I had this great idea about, um I wanted to build an app that would wouldn’t allow election work unless it heard the word, please. So I didn’t want my daughter thinking that she could just talk to machines without in loser manner and and so

[00:48:34.59] spk_6:
I I should do this one day. I did. Really? Yeah. Uh, someone did it, and it exists now it’s a damn apples. Piss me off. You know, it’s like, Why do you Why

[00:48:49.62] spk_0:
d the a The only, um, the biggest risk it’s been said is not taking one, you know, And that’s it. So

[00:48:50.72] spk_2:
sure, of course. You know, you see that

[00:48:52.16] spk_3:
on social media all the time. I spent most of my time when I’m in social on Twitter, and, uh, you know,

[00:48:57.51] spk_6:
there’s over died years ago. There’s always, uh oh, yeah,

[00:48:59.90] spk_0:
way. We all know why it’s still alive. It’s only there’s only one reason why it’s alive in his orange and it should be dead. Twitter should have died about four years ago. There’s literally sze I find such a little value in and I’m still on it and you have to be. But I find such little value in it now. Such a bummer. It was It was it was phenomenal. I loved Twitter back in Lego eight and I

[00:49:20.10] spk_3:
were on the show. You might have said you don’t know if Twitter will survive, but But the

[00:49:23.75] spk_6:
concept, the concept, right? Momo? Well, not not constant tweeting the continent mobile messaging the concept of short, short burst communication. And I was right. And that is everything. That every single text,

[00:49:34.74] spk_0:
every single email, every single thing that we get is short bursts, right? And and for the

[00:49:39.68] spk_6:
HD, that’s perfect. It’s quick, little Oh, let’s look Okay. So

[00:49:42.58] spk_0:
let’s move on, you know, But the premise of tradition I’m starting to have your say something.

[00:49:51.32] spk_3:
Okay? That’s all these all these, uh, advice is, you know, the trite little Yeah. Never don’t be afraid to fail that the biggest failure is never trying, you know, But but But, I

[00:49:59.50] spk_2:
mean, there’s truth in

[00:50:00.15] spk_3:
it, but it seems trite.

[00:50:06.16] spk_6:
Well, everything seems t social media fucked everything up because nobody but nobody.

[00:50:06.66] spk_2:
You know, people are

[00:50:07.21] spk_6:
the last thing on. That’s right. I’m still see things. Yes. Thank you for sending 10,000 person conferences and telling them Be transparent. Be relevant.

[00:50:14.14] spk_0:
Be be, be brief. Being really

[00:50:17.05] spk_6:
Well, it’s so obvious. Then why aren’t you doing it? Test it. Try it.

[00:50:24.73] spk_3:
All right. Very true. We wrapped up. Sam, is that, uh we

[00:50:28.71] spk_2:
got five minutes off. Never gonna add. Oh, my gosh. Five minutes left. Oh,

[00:50:29.84] spk_3:
we started five minutes late. Yes, that’s what I’m looking at. The clock on Sam’s. All right, Um,

[00:50:36.43] spk_2:
tell me. Tell me more.

[00:50:55.71] spk_0:
Um, I could tell you that I One of the things that I find is is very, uh, everyone in whose no divers tends to have in common. We’re either incredibly productive or we do nothing at all again. No middle ground.

[00:50:56.87] spk_3:
This was the nomis day. All

[00:51:44.41] spk_0:
right? So I will I will. So, for instance, I have wanted I have done to Iron Man in my life to Ironman triathlons, and I want to do 1/3 1 and I for years I would say, OK, this is a year, and I haven’t had the impetus kick in the pants to sign up and and and pay the money. Paid almost $1000 to register for that. And something fell in my lap this year where it looks like I’ll be doing my 3rd 1 in in October. If you wait for the right moment, you’re never gonna have it. Yeah, right. And so again, that’s why I tend to say yes to almost everything in the world. Um, figure how to do it later, right? So I know that if I do my third eye, man, I’m gonna have to Basically from, like, mid February to October. I am going to be in that zone where I’m gonna be doubling my workouts. I’m gonna be, You know, my sleep will

[00:51:50.55] spk_6:
suffer. Not

[00:52:08.85] spk_0:
tremendously. I’ll still get enough sleep. But, you know, after putting my kid down eight o’clock, I might not go right to bed. I might have to do another two hours on bike. Isn’t like that. And, um but you I guess the point. Grantmakers What I find is that you make time for what’s important, right?

[00:52:12.33] spk_6:
Because of the end of the day, I’m still I’m still having the same 24 hours. That’s not gonna change. I’m not gonna find the time. Right. So you have to make it and you make it expensive. Something else.

[00:52:19.96] spk_0:
So you figure out what? What’s not important? A good friend of mine

[00:52:23.48] spk_6:
I understand so early. It’s amazing. You’re I wish I could do that like you can. No, I don’t know. I don’t know. You can. How do I do that? Well, okay, so I see that

[00:52:31.98] spk_0:
you’re liking, um shit on Facebook at 2 a.m. Maybe. You know, don’t do

[00:52:37.87] spk_6:
that. You know, it’s like we all have the same amount of time, and and how we utilize it is what

[00:52:43.43] spk_3:
matters. All right, out of respect for you, because the hour is really it’s an artificial. It’s an artificial

[00:52:47.90] spk_6:
country. Exactly. That exists

[00:52:50.94] spk_3:
to an hour, so we’re gonna leave it there. I really wanna thank you

[00:52:52.90] spk_6:
for your time. Thank you. Come back another five years.

[00:52:57.18] spk_3:
Thanks a lot for sure. You’ll find him at Peter Shankman. Peter

[00:53:03.38] spk_0:
Shankman. Peter Shankman. another Socials and peter shankman dot com and apparition shankman dot com.

[00:53:07.84] spk_3:
And at Peter Shankman, you also see he’s now a futurist in residence. We get just talk about

[00:53:11.53] spk_0:
epic epic marketing consultants, a great company in a Delaware. They hired me as their futurists futurist in residence. Yeah, so I come up with ideas. I I write white papers on what I think is gonna happen. Then we see if I’m

[00:53:24.41] spk_3:
right. Thank you very much. Next week, it’s our Valentine’s Day show relationship. Fundraising naturally with Adrian Sergeant. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:53:40.40] spk_2:
cooking meth in Software Denali Fund

[00:53:58.13] spk_3:
Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A

[00:54:38.88] spk_2:
creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York We’re a pre recorded today, so there wasn’t live. Listen, love podcast pleasantries. But of course, you know the sentiment goes out. Those sentiments always go out. You with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for March 15, 2019: The War For Fundraising Talent

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Jason Lewis: The War For Fundraising Talent
Rapid staff turnover and high donor attrition are merely symptoms of a larger problem: You’re not treating your fundraisers right. So says Jason Lewis. He’s author of the book, “The War for Fundraising Talent.”

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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on the aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Locke Socialism If you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show. The war for fund-raising talent, rapid staff turnover and high donor attrition are merely symptoms of a larger problem. You’re not treating your fundraisers right? So says Jason Lewis. He’s author of the book The War for Fund-raising Talent on Tony’s Take two nineteen and TC. We’re sponsored by pursuant Full Service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuing by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner’s cps dot com By Tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four, four nine nine nine I can welcome Jason Lewis to the show. It’s a pleasure to do that. He’s the author of the book The War for Fund-raising Talent and How Small Shops Can Win. He’s an A F P master trainer and contrary invoice on effective fund-raising practices, hiring decisions and donor behavior. He’s at the generous life and at louis fund-raising dot com. Welcome to the show. Jason Lewis. Hi, Tony. They’re glad to be here and looking forward to our conversation this evening. Absolutely cool. Where you calling from? I am in. Ah, Salisbury, Maryland. I’ve got a client out here on the eastern Shore, and so I’m sitting in the hotel lobby of of the of the hotel. Um, yeah, they got They have happy hour there, free drinks in the lobby. While you’re mean, you know, this is Can you imbibe while you converse? No. It’s pretty quiet here this evening. I think there’s a could only be one one other gentlemen in here and he doesn’t know happy are going on here. Okay, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, because I have a strict. I have a straight up vodka in front of me, so Yeah. Yeah, I was Yeah, there’s No, I don’t I don’t even know there’s a bar over there, but I don’t think part. Okay, okay. You need to get clients in bigger. Used to get clients in bigger cities with fancier hotels. Yeah, right exactly. Way. Take the clients that are right for us. Where are you based? Um, Tony. I live in York, Pennsylvania, which is about sixty five miles north of Baltimore. And, um, I travel in and out of Baltimore for most of my client work. We’ve lived in York for almost ten years. We moved up there after I was a major gifts officer in Washington. And we want to buy our first home and suburban Maryland right outside of the district’s not not terribly, but not not not terribly good for, ah, buying your first home. So we moved to York, and we’ve been there ten years. We’re all happy there. All right, all right. And you’ve got, like, twenty years in and fund-raising, right? Yeah, I am. Okay. I’m like I’m like a lot of people that have I sort of consider myself one of maybe one of the last, um of this generation that have sort of come in through the back door. You know, my wife and I were after college. We were looking for something to do together. And we went to work for a non profit organization. And I happened upon fund-raising in the process. But yes, I’m sort of one of those typical fundraisers who came through the back door. Not very deliberately, right? Like me, I came through law, hated practising our way, engineered myself too much happier existence. What’s this? What’s this war that we’re waging for fund-raising talent? Give it. Give it. Give a given intro to this idea of war. It’s pretty inside of the incendiary little provocative. Yeah, I was. I was. I was pretty deliberate with that title. I, um some people have said that some people have said that I was Teo combative with that title, but it certainly got the attention that I was looking for. Um, you know, tell Tony to say that the the the war that I’m actually talking about in the book is not a, uh It’s not the typical talent war in the sense of who gets the hyre Tony or who gets the hyre. Jason, um, I’m actually talking about more of an ideological war, essentially two competing mindset, Um, that I think are one of them. Sort of overwhelmingly president in the nonprofit sector. And then the other being the one that I think is the, um I certainly have found to be the one that wins, um, these two competing mind sets the one is, is the organization that assumes that there fund-raising challenges. Ey’re always resolved by this constant accumulation of new donors. And presumably the new donor comes with lesser expectation on the Delaware that they are already have. Yes, and then? And then the, uh, then I think you know is you look at the organizations that are winning it’s it’s organizations that get to get beyond the point of constant accumulation of of new donors. And they realize that the donors that they already have or are the way that the way all this works and being able to balance their expectations of the donor. But what expectations they have with the expectations that you would have of them so allows, allowing those expectations toe oppcoll sort of grow over time. Eyes actually, how that works stand. You say the war for fund-raising talent will be won by those who can combine a highest standard of professionalism with an organizational culture that thrives on meaningful engagement and meaningful engagement. Talking about engagement with the professional fundraiser, right? Yeah. I mean, you’ve got it. You’ve got it? Yeah, I mean, you’ve got to create a culture where that Aye, that development officer can thrive where they want to show up for work on Monday morning and enjoy their work. Yes. And then you’ve got to create a you’ve got to create a culture where that development officer can can be expected. Not that where that development officer can be expected to, you know, call on your existing donors and occasionally knock on their doors or meet them for coffee or what have you. And so instead of, instead of avoiding that meaningful engagement, they they’ve actually got to see that as an essential part of it. Yeah, on DH, we’ll have time to work our way into this, of course, because we have the hour together. But, you know, I pick something from the middle, the book. You know, I felt like there was a central thesis Who’s going toe? Who’s going to win this? It’s not really a culture war, but it was going to win. This war of ah, of ideas is really what we’re talking about. Um, you’ve got you. So as we back away from a little bit, you’ve got some concern about drifting away from our mission and the impact that that can have on fundraisers. A CZ. They’re pursuing major donors. And you call it Mission Drift. I think I would even call it Mission Hijack. What’s your What’s your concern there? Well, So, Tony, when you say that mention mission, let me clarify what you mean when you say mission hijack the meaning, the donor that wealthy that concentration of attention to wealthy donors can can, if in organizations not careful, allow it to embark on programs that aren’t court to its mission Because those where the wealthy donors interests lie. And in fact, I got it. I got to take our first break, Jason. So is that that makes him you know, where you know where headed now? Yeah. Yeah. I don’t want to make sure that when I responded to the question that I answered it, OK? I mean, I’m going with that, Okay? Exactly. I’m calling it Mission Hijack. You don’t You’re not that extreme. Surprisingly, because you’re the you’re the incendiary guy, but you backed off a little bit. Okay? All right. Allow me to take take this first break. Pursuing their newest free book is the Art of First Impressions. It’s all about Donorsearch acquisition. To attract new donors, you need to make a smashing first impression. Now, Jason and I are talking about some things that will hopefully help you not have to acquire new donors year after year after year. But to the extent you do have to be involved in donorsearch precision, uh, this e book will help you guiding principles for acquisition. Howto identify your unique value. It’s got some creative tips, and you will find it on the listener landing page. Tony Dahna. I’m a slash pursuant. Remember that capital P for, please. All right, let’s go back to the war for fund-raising talent. Okay, Jason s o What’s your concern around this? What you call Drift, I call hijack? Yeah, I think I think in the nonprofit sector there there is a lot of fear. There is a lot of fear that if we build relationships with major donors, wealthy people, that they will, you know, cause us or persuade us or require of us, hijack our mission, and they’ll expect us to, um, you know, go in the direction that we don’t want to go. But, um, what the argument that I’m making is that any relationship that is imbalanced, any any relationship? You know, Tony, you and I, you know, we develop a friendship and say, for example, you know, I’m on your podcast. You’re on mine and if one of us, uh, if one of us takes that relationship in a direction where the X where my where my expectations of you and your expectations of me or out of balance one of us is going to use words like drift or Ah, hi, Judge. I know he hijacked the relationship, and he took in the direction I didn’t want to go. And I think that’s actually what’s happening more often than not in the non-profit spaces. We don’t know how to. I don’t think it’s the donors that are out there hijacking our missions. I think it’s the organizations that our, uh, have have, quite frankly not learned how to have a balanced peer-to-peer relationship with their major donors. Um the fear the fear of mission drift or mission hijack actually can be very quickly resolved by simply having a appear relationship with a donor where the donor ask you to do something you don’t want to do. You have to have the confidence to tell him or no. And we haven’t gotten not enough of us who are out there trying to raise significant funds, especially in the smaller shops. Um, haven’t developed that confident Yeah, yeah. And I You know, I think that feeds back to the scarcity, the scarcity mindset, which, in this case, you know, I always called him scarcity Mindset. You go, You take the more incendiary and you call the scarcity lie. You know, it’s the I think what you’re describing feeds from that’s scarcity lie that we don’t have enough donors, so we can’t upset any of them. Oh, yeah. I mean, we we, um non-profit organizations are so shoot, we’re so you know, those of us who choose to start a prop up a non profit organization and we want to change the world were very oriented towards the people that we serve not poor, not towards the people that enable us to do the serving. And so we’re very comfortable, you know, spending time with children or patients or whomever, you know, homeless people that need to be bed or whatever does organizations doing. But we haven’t developed a confident sitting across the table from somebody who in many cases, has, you know, more wealth. And a lot of us will ever know if our monetary well, thousands and thousands of times over. Yeah, yeah, but But until you develop that that confidence to sit across the table from that individual and not allow his his or her monetary wealth, and similarly not allow your you know your mission in vision of the organization, neither one of them to sort of overpower, overwhelmed the relationship and say, Okay, we’re going to meet here. We’ll have a mutually satisfying relationship. Um, you know the same words I mean, I think I think it’s terrible that some of the language that we use nowadays to describe what we think donors air out there capable or willing or desirous of doing it’s the same language that it It’s just it’s just the language that we would attribute to any dysfunctional relationship. Um, but dysfunctional relationships generally here to a street. Yeah, we oftentimes get into a pattern of behavior where we’re enabling and allowing that person to behave that way. And we’ve got to change that. But But But my point is that that that fear of making that change that you’re now describing comes from the scarcity lie that we haven’t got enough donors, so we can’t piss any of them off. I’m well, yeah, absolutely. Well, Tony. So what, They’re Yeah, they’re there. If you never If you got one hundred names on a mail, you know we’ve got these databases. We love our databases. So if you’ve got a hundred names in your database, um, most of us have been a multiple upon multiples. Mohr. And you never sit across the table from them. You never learned that. They are that they’re not broke. You never learned that they’re not that the three sources aren’t scared, right? Well, that you have you. Yeah, Yeah, that’s on. That goes that goes to your concern about too much arm’s length fund-raising which we’re goingto get, we’ll get to, uh, yeah. Okay. I just s Oh, yeah. Yes, of course. You want the keys? There was a lot of wasted syllables. Uh, What? Yes, of course you want it. You do want a balanced relationship, and you want to relieve yourself, Shed yourself of the the scarcity lie that there isn’t enough to go around. You don’t have enough to survive so that everyone needs to. Every donor needs to be placated and never ruffled or troubled or or disagreed with that. Because Because then you’ll always then you then you are at risk for the the mission hijack or the mission drift that that that we’re talking about. And and that’ll be particularly unsatisfying. Going back to your thesis about fund-raising. That’ll be unsatisfying to your front. Your professional fundraisers. Because they’re always coming at this from an obsequious position. Hoo! That’s a big word. Explain that we’re that I don’t know. I don’t know what the hell it means I saw it. It was word of the day a couple days ago. No, it’s Ah, it’s that you’re It’s a fawning, ah, forming attentiveness, your falling over yourself to be kind and and, you know, attentive and complimentary of the person that’s an obsequious itt’s pajarito. It’s bad. I know. You know what? I’m sorry. I’m just good to finding everywhere. Yeah, it’s a majority on You don’t want your fundraisers thinking that way. I don’t think I tend to think, and I didn’t I didn’t hammer this message too heavy in the book, but I think you’ve got a lot of non-profit organizations out there that are being run by people that, quite frankly, have control issues. Um, and you know, if I’m in a room with these folks, often times I’m I’m I’m pretty forward about saying, you know, we’ve got a lot of non profit organizations that are being run by control freaks, and they don’t know how to relinquish that sense of control. That oftentimes is not unreasonable. You know, if the donor wants to paint the wall pink and you want to paint it purple, you know, we need to ask ourselves if if we were, If if our mission statement really was all about whether or not we painted the wall pink or purple or if it had, you know, if what we’re aiming for was much more significant than that. And, um so I don’t think we’re I think you’ve got more organizations out there that are being run by people who want control, not by people who want to change the world. And And that’s what you know. I don’t know, impact control a whole lot in the book, but that’s essentially what I think it comes down to is you’ve got a lot of control freaks out there that Yeah, you know, and the possibility that a donor will come in and say, Hey, let’s do it this way Really freaks out a person who wants to maintain control. Well, don’t hold out hope. Don’t hold back on non-profit radio Listeners weaken. They can take straight talk. So you can if you if you didn’t want to go into it in the book. Maybe that’s your second book. I’m sure that’ll be your your follow-up book about control and maybe even sometimes founder. You know that Founder, founder misery. But any case now, probably radio listeners could take you straight. In fact, you devote a whole you’ve got a whole chapter. We don’t have a lot of you don’t. I don’t feel like we’re going to have time to go into this, but because people just have to buy the book. I mean, the book is the war for fund-raising talent. It’s on Amazon. You’ve just got to get it. But you have a whole You have a hole. You agree with that? Are you agree with that premise? You gotta buy the book. You know, You know, you have no trouble with that, do you? Okay. Yeah. Chapter hounded by charities. You know, where you talk about cheap and low risk and shallow, you know that? That type of fund-raising and I think it. I think it’s fed by the scarcity mindset. You know, we got to go after every nickel. So So with that sort of, with that chapter in mind, but that hounded, you know, and that sort of transactional, you know that transactional fund-raising? Well, yeah, yeah. So if I was rewriting the book and I was and you were coaching the tony on how to write this thing. And I was talking to an audience you’re doing Now forget about it. Forget about it. You may as well do a comic book. Sorry to the comic book collectors who think there’s a graphic novels and they’re not graphic novels. If it’s got pictures, it’s a comic book. I don’t care if it’s hard covered with four hundred pages. That’s a comic book. Okay, get that graphic novel nonsense out of your head. Okay, I’m sorry. Like minor digression. In any case, your book is doomed if you got me coaching you. But if you want to follow that hypothetical go ahead. Yeah, I mean, if if you if I was looking at that particular chapter, I tell the Olive cooked the story of olive cook in the United Kingdom who jumped off of a bridge and jump stur during tragic death. And she was probably more than likely she was depressed and had other mental illness. Uh uh, that that precipitated that. But the press decided that it was it was direct mail to blame. And and and I don’t and I don’t think that for a minute that the direct mail is necessarily what what caused this woman Tio to commit suicide. But what I do think is that I don’t think that direct mail. I don’t think that the charities that were, um, overwhelming her mailbox contributed to a meaningful life for this woman. Um, I think they could have been. I think they and you know, the I think the charitable organizations that were hounding her as the as the press said, I could have recognize that this woman was reaching out to charitable organizations and contributing to them and trying to enhance our quality of life. But instead we have turned it into we have turned a lot of fund-raising practice into a machine, and all it cook just becomes sort of the ultimate miserable example of sort of what happens when the machine just goes, You know, out of control. I wantto way I want it back a little bit for listeners. So Olive Cook story, I think. Twenty, fourteen. Jason twenty, twenty, fifteen. The woman was getting lots of emails. All stations. Fifty seven fifty, sixty a day or something or forty fifty letters a day. And she was a middle income woman, and she was overwhelmed and she killed herself. She jumped off a cliff into a gorge. She lived in the UK and like like Jason just said, the press decided that that was because she was overwhelmed by charitable solicitations. And, you know, that’s certainly open to a lot of AA AA lot of argument. But in case I just want to backfill the story, so But it’s so Okay, so with that now we understand that I want to get to My question is, um, do we need to do what? What? What would it look like if if a non-profit that was doing a lot of this transactional, as you say, You know, shallow fund-raising. Andi. Just about all non-profits do. But suppose they recognize that their they, like they can never convert, or they hardly ever convert these transactional ten, fifteen, twenty, maybe even fifty hundred dollar gift. They never convert them to more to major gif ts or to what you call, you know, significant gifts. But even just getting two major gifts. What if they abandoned that transactional practice? Suppose they just stopped and devoted, though that time and money two major gift fund-raising. What do you think that what you think that would fly in an organization? What do you think that would look like? I mean, is it feasible to just abandon the transactional and put those resources toward Major E-giving? Hyre? I don’t I don’t know if that’s the question, whether or not it’s feasible. There’s plenty of organizations that have done the analysis, Tony, that says that if they removed thirty percent of their file, it wouldn’t. It wouldn’t change the outcome if if if they just I’ve got a friend of mine who’s in direct response and he’s done. He’s done the analysis on these huge databases, and there’s there’s a segment, you know? What portion of what segment of your database are you mailing to that if you just stopped feeling? Um and I think it’s a very valid question, But any enterprise in a non-profit or for-profit enterprise, fellows to them now. Jason, Jake, Jason, we need you to call back. I’m going to take a break. Jason, I hope you can hear me. Jason, give you give a call back, please call the studio back. Okay? Okay. Okay. Thank you. Lost him. But we’ll get him right back. It happens this is, uh, you know, it’s live, although it’s it’s not live were pre recorded, but we don’t have it. That’s what you know that you What you know is that we don’t edit, so we’ll take a break break cracking like I’m fourteen. Ah, and we’ll take that break for Wagner. CPS, so enough. Yeah, I’ve done the archive Webinar. Okay, we’re done with that now. Well, you see, Piela they’re accountants, right? Do you need help with your nine ninety this year? You’re looking for a new audit firm. Patronise a non-profit radio sponsors. How about that? Look at them. Check out Wagner’s site and then call them up. Talk to that partner. Yeah, Huge tomb. Alright. See if they can help you out. I’d be grateful they’d be grateful. Weinger cps dot com Now let’s go into Tony’s. Take two. And we’ll just do this a little bit early because we had that little glitch on DH Tony Tony steak too. So now this time and I’m at non-profit rate, I am non-profit radio are ah non-profit radio is our show. I’m not the non-profit technology conference and T C nineteen ninety sea right now. Not it’s not now for me, it’s going to be then for me. I’ll be there then. But it’s now for you. When that comes, then, Because when I’m there, then you’ll be here. Now, here with me. But not here with me. There. You’ll be here with me. Then you might be here then. But you wouldn’t be with me unless you happen to be in booths five o eight and five. Ten at the convention center in Portland, Oregon. So if you’re not there, then there. Then you wouldn’t be with me then. But you can be with me now. Here, when I’m here with you. Right here. I’ll be here then for you now, like I always am. Right? And I want to thank ActBlue for sponsoring Non-profit radio at NTC. They’re doing it now and then here and there. And you know them for their three billion dollars in small donations, get to know them for small dollar donations for your organization. And you could check out our non-profit, your sponsor at tony dot M a slash actblue. And that is Tony’s. Take two. Now let’s get back to Jason Lewis. The war for Fund-raising talent. Jason, you back with us. I am sorry we lost. Okay? Yeah, Yeah, it happens. I don’t know that the hotel lobby have some commotion like that Happy hour start or something? I don’t know, but I’m made sure to turn on something. Snapped some part of my phone to make sure that maybe that doesn’t happen again. Okay. Okay. Well, you would know if you would know if Happy hour started around you, wouldn’t you? Oh, yeah. That has guarded. It is still the same. Lonely. I don’t know how many of your listeners have ever been to Salisbury, Maryland, but it’s a quiet little town that’s about fifty miles from the promotion city, Maryland, and not a lot happening. And OK, down. I can tell you that the tourism from Ocean City has not bled over, but it also does not. But I do know people make money here. There are people here who make money over there. So, uh, there might be a few fundraisers who come through here on occasion. Here. There. When? When you’re there with them here, then? Yeah. If you’re in real estate. Not now. If you live in Salisbury, Maryland, chances are you’re in real estate. You know, oceanfront, real estate, condos, rental units, that sort of stuff. So yeah, okay, But we were talking about that. That transactional fund-raising what that would look like if you abandon that, and what you were starting to get to is a CZ. You said, You know, if you took a third of your file perhaps and stopped soliciting them by by these transactional methods, there wouldn’t be much loss or any loss. And it might actually be a gain if you move those resources into the more high dollar major e-giving. And I’ve seen something like that from a guest ahead on recently. Curtis Bingham. When I saw him live, there was there was a segment of small dollar transactions that that that’s a very large company. Hundreds of thousands of customers. So they had a large data file. Was it was able to purge and and actually profited by reallocating resources away from. So I’m just wondering, you know what? That what that would look like. I mean, it would be It would be radical, I think, for a lot of organizations. Well, if you get if you get if you sort of loop back to what I’m talking about about their sense of control. You know, arm’s length fund-raising cheap, shallow, arms linked fund-raising is not about raising significant dollars. It’s about maintaining a sense of control. And it is avoiding that fear that you started with, you know, in a few minutes ago, The idea that if we let the stone or come into we let too many donors get too close to the mission, they might tell us to do something we don’t want to do. So, um, I think there’s I think, if we really got, I think if we really wrestled with, some of us would find out that the reason that we maintain these cheap, shallow relationships with our donors has less to do with whether or not they can actually give us more money or not. But because it maintains that sense of control. If we took a third, it’s just hypothetically, just just sort of cat. You know, put your put your put any organizations donors in the three categories. There’s the third that they’re not going to make any money on, and they’re better off not mailing to them at all. There’s the third that on the other end of the spectrum that there they don’t have to mail, too, and they get very significant gifts from and and the margins on what they invest in. Those donors are huge. I think there’s plenty of opportunity and enough of our organization’s today with this metal category of donors that says if we’ll invest, if if will invest in more meaningful relationships with these people, weaken. Therefore, raise our expectation of these individuals and expect them to give Mohr more meaningful contributions. Yeah, that’s where I think it’s that middle category of donor um, that, I think is both the opportunity. But it is also the the change agent, if you will, that would revolutionise the way a lot of organizations raised funds, because if all of a sudden I’ve got a middle, if I’ve got what we would tip, typically call sort of a mid level donor if all of a sudden I’m engaging them in more meaningful ways, they’re not writing these extraordinary gifts. You know, they’re not writing huge six and seven figure gifts, but they’re writing checks that, you know when you bunch them together with, You know, twenty five other people. It’s a pretty big deal. But tow have those people now engaged in the organization in a way that’s more meaningful is a different type of organization. Let’s eso let’s talk about how to treat some of those that middle third that you describe. You say you say we gonna learn a lot from e harmony. Yeah. Okay. Tell us so and you know it. Right? And, Tony, I’m really grateful that you read the book because, well, what the hell? Oh, my God. I do. Most people not what? How would I have a conversation with an author if I don’t read it? But I know I totally You know what, Tony? I think I’ve done. I don’t know, probably a dozen of these interviews. And nobody’s mentioned the harmony. So a man? Yeah. I mean, it’s it caught my eye because my wife and I are having trouble. So I I’ve been checking out myself, so I have some personal interest in it as well. So, yes, that all its not all altruistic. Non-profit hyre fine. Well, were not. I’m not in the harmony. Let’s just leave it at that. Let’s not overstate the brilliant Tony, the brilliant behind our harmony. What about them? A Harmony is has has has an algorithm, has a model. They got a business model that says we don’t want people using our system that want cheap, shallow, one night stand relationships with the people that they’re dating that we want to, so that they’re using the same platform that any other you know, Essentially, they’re providing the same dating platform that any other organisms in the other dating service would. But but they were using such an algorithm that requires that the person they raised, the expectation they have a high bar. They have a high bar to have my heart hyre Barda entry. Yeah. Yeah. So the point of entry in getting into the system is much higher than then. You know, the average Joe guy who’s going in and looking for you because I mean, the application I filled out. I mean, the application that you have to fill out is long, and it’s intended to prove that you are looking for a serious relationship, not just dating and sleeping around, which is why I abandoned. But, I mean, I would abandon if I if I if you ever ever had, because, uh, you know, coming out of a marriage. Well, all right, let’s let’s just drop that. Um Okay. So what’s the analog to fund-raising? Well, so both both the both the harmonies of the world and all the other dating websites are using technology to essentially draw in and engage with their customers with their perspective customers, in our case, with perspective donors. And there’s no reason why we have to, as a nonprofit organization, assume that there’s not ways too raised the bar and set the expectation hyre rather than just make it, um, brother than lower the bar. Okay, So what does that? What does that look like? Give us some examples of raising the bar as you’re dealing with this, this middle tier of donors and you’re trying to upgrade them. Most of my clients. Most of my clients are hearing from me that the donor, the donor who makes the initial gift, needs to be receptive to a to a thank you call and a first time needing so any time, um to ah, to ah, an in person meeting. And and And so if Tony, if you sent one hundred dollars on giving Tuesday back in November to my charity one of my clients, you’re going to receive a thank you call from that charitable organization and they’re going to allocate somebody’s time to sit down with you. Um, acknowledged that gift and begin to set the expectation that if if you’re going to be one of our donors, we’re going to expect more than that hundred dollars of you every year. But in return, we’re going toe. You know, we’re going to do things like we’re going to sit down and occasionally have a cup of coffee with you, Okay? And and if you say in the book, you quote Jerry Panis in the book, saying, eighty percent of the, uh, the work of non-profit fundraisers is getting that first meeting. So So you also like that? Are you telling your class, then? For the for the ones who won’t sit down after the hundred dollar gift? We’re not goingto you know where we won’t be spending personal time with them anymore, right? That’s exactly right. I disagreeing. I’m just I’m just trying to flush you out at that. That’s an example of how you would begin to discern. So all of my clients use what I referred Teo three lanes. And if you’re if you’re a donor who’s going Teo, be duitz. If if If you’re a donor, who’s going to be expected of, um you know, five times, five times what? That initial gift wass you, Khun, you, Khun, therefore expect us to similarly invest in that relationship. And Gerald Panis is, you know that he he told that to. He pointed that out to a lot of us, and I don’t know why we have not sort of taken that same logic and used it as a way to sort of test who these people are that we’re interacting with. Uh, you know, after that, initial gifted, the person will not sit down with you for a cup of coffee and talk about why your organization is of interest to them. Um, where that relationships going to go long term is seems very sceptical to may. Okay, so then, in that case, we will just continue to accept the person’s hundred dollar gift per year. I guess. Obviously, we’ll send thank you notes, but we’re not going to get well, send standard. Thank you’s your your advice would be, um, I getting this right, But but we wouldn’t. Wouldn’t be calling the person to say thank you. You after year, we’re going to move on to find people who will sit down with us after they’re They’re one hundred dollar gift. Is that Do I have that right? Yeah. Yeah, I got into a conversation with someone the other day. That was sort of along this line. Of what? So what do you do with that individual who sends you a hundred dollars on giving Tuesday? Refuses tto have that cup of coffee. Do you, you know, is that if that person completely ignored from there, you know, what do they do? They do. They now occupy a spot on your database or don’t pay, and and you continue to mail to them. I I tend to be more extreme in my in my encouragements. And I say, Look, you know, if if if if a subsequent that person’s names on your database within six months if you’re not getting a subsequent gift from that person, I think you need to allow the science of fund-raising to sort of work in your favor. And you need to sort of say, this person’s really probably not going anywhere with us. And they’re occupying a spot on our database in such a way that’s going to constantly convince us that there’s opportunity there when it’s not there. Um, and so what do you do? As a result? What? Let’s get drill down to the nitty gritty of this. What do you do with the person you’re staying? You stop inhaling. Yeah. I’m not selling to that person any more than okay, like a custom cannot nailing to that person anymore. Not even to Mom. Not even to maintain their hundred dollars. Well, the thing about that hundred dollars is that hundred dollars. It is the same that is in and of itself what I’m talking about with new act with arms linked fund-raising. The organization is convincing itself that that that’s the way that fund-raising works, and so I’m not only trying to raise more money, but I’m also trying to combat these assumptions as to how this works, if used. If you continue to spend money, be it a little or being a lot of money every year to renew that hundred dollars, That’s one hundred dollars that I can’t spend to pay somebody to go and have that cup of coffee with somebody. Um, and find out that someone else who did give on giving Tuesday and will sit down for a cup of coffee will agree to give five times as much money. Okay, wait, we gotta look confused. We’re not. We’re not spending a hundred dollars to get a hundred, but whatever we are spending, you wantto allocate that elsewhere. I do. Right? I’m trying to get people to to do best. You know you’re going to reduce their investment in new acquisition and anything that looks like new acquisition and reinvest it in. And because a lot of people will say to me when I’m making this case, they’re going to say to me, Jason, we can’t afford to send people out to have cups of coffee for five hundred dollars gifts. And in my pushback on, that is Well, of course, you can’t not on the model that you have now that is dependent on, you know, extort, maintaining extraordinary volumes with relationships that don’t yield types of support you want to get. But when you changed the economics, it becomes much less. Because it becomes a much less scary, uh, proposal. When you when you start, when you start to see donors, you can see this. You see this play out when when organizations start taking donors out the lunch when they start having coffee conversations in these donorsearch art, giving five and ten times as much they gave that first time the light goes on in their head and they realised, OK, this how this works. Okay, hold hold there. I got to take another break. Sure, tell us. This is the long stream of passive revenue. You get half the fee when tell those processes. Credit card transactions for companies that you refer. It’s perfect for small organizations that need more revenue. Revenue. Diversity Red. This is revenue you don’t have to work for each month each year like Jason hyre talking about. It’s passive. Watch the video, then send companies to watch and make your ask. Go to Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s I Want to do the live Listener Love. As I had said, We’re not live here. I’m at NTC. Let’s not Let’s not rehash that that morass again. But the live love goes out for the people who are listening live. Thank you. I’m glad you’re with us on the podcast. Pleasantries to the over thirteen thousand listeners in the time shift pleasantries to you. I’m grateful that you are with us. Now. Let’s go back to Jason Lewis. Okay. Anything more? You wanted Teo say about the shifting economics? The reallocation of resource is, um the abandonment of of donors that look tantalizing, but they’re never really going to come. They’re never going to come around. So, yeah, the only thing the only thing I would point out again, I just something that I don’t unpack in great detail in the book. But I want us to pay it. I want any anyone who’s reading my book, but I do want them. Tio, keep in mind that that hundred dollar gift that we’re talking about. So you’re you’re begging the question. Okay, What do we do about that hundred dollars gift that will not convert to a lunch table conversation into a larger gift? The reality is that more and more non-profit organizations are going to be enlisting the help of outside. You know, vendors outsource sort of solutions that they can largely be executed via technology, and they’re not gonna be employing full time fundraisers to just to maintain that hundred dollars gift. And so part of what I’m pushing back on in the book is the definition of what fund-raising talent is. And I’m saying that if the donor when you get the one hundred dollars on giving Tuesday, um, your ability is a fundraiser to pick up the phone and ask for that gift, that’s where the job start, not where it wraps up and we’re not. I don’t think you’re going to see non-profit organizations in the same numbers that we historically have be paying fund-raising professionals to acquire these first gifts. There’s no, there’s no necessity for that. We can outsource that. We can rely on technology to do that. And anything that technology and in an outsourcing solution can’t do, Um, can be accomplished with volunteers. Wait. Don’t need to pay fundraisers to secure initial gifts. Volunteers or technology. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I wanna make I wanna make one thing clear. I don’t beg II. Just ask. I’m not begging. Okay. Um, you talk about you wanna spend some time on deliberate practice for fundraisers and, uh, by my count. You got four different for maybe five include the include the list, right? Include the last five deliberate the river practices that you want to see fundraisers engaging because you feel again You know, I’m summarizing I’m not giving you a chance to flesh out everything because you tend to be allover boast So I I can’t I can’t spend time everything that you have. But you’re the author too, so I don’t blame you. You know, I’ve never written a book, so I just talk, You know, it’s just it’s just, uh a different medium, but yeah. So, you know, you you, uh you don’t feel that experience in it is experience in and of itself creates good fund-raising, which which, I mean, I think that’s got some intellectual or some some some some appeal that’s intuitive as well. Just because you’ve been doing something for thirty years doesn’t mean you do it. Well, you could be very mediocre and lackluster for thirty years. Maybe you got better. But that still doesn’t mean you’re you know, you’re at the peak of your game or he thinks, Oh, so you like to see instead of just experience, Uh, you like you like fundraisers to engage in these deliberate practices. You, uh, you want to kick off with What? A deliberate practice. That’s your favorite? Yeah. The one of the deliberate practices that I use. I’ve scored the most points with when I’m trying to train up development officers with my clients. Is this concept of two weeks out? And and what that means is that when you pick up the phone so this same scenario that I was talking about, what with the coffee after giving Tuesday, um, you schedule all your meetings two weeks out. So if I called you up, Tony and said, um, you know, thank you for the contribution you made on giving Tuesday. Can we get together for a cup of coffee? I don’t allow my clients to schedule that needing any sooner than two weeks out on their schedule. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason I’m doing that is because I’m trying to get the donor to signal to the organization that they are, in fact, a priority for the organization. And therefore we will put I will put you on my calendar, and I will. I will give you that spot on my calendar two weeks out. Kind of like you and I. We scheduled this, uh, this interview here, you signaled to me that I was important to you. And so you put me on your schedule, and that signals a heightened level of, you know, equality in the relationship that had we not scheduled it. Um, you know, if you would have just sort of reached out yesterday and said, Hey, can you get together? Six O’Clock. That would have signalled something very different. And I think that’s what’s happening with a lot of the way that development officers interact with their donors, is there not? They’re not raising the bar. They’re not raising the expectation of saying, hey, make me a priority in your schedule. Um, and consequently if if that happens, you’re going to also become a quality. You know, you’re going to become a priority, and they’re giving. Okay, So So you say even even if even if the sounds like somebody’s checking in checking in xero noisy group chaillou busload just come in to check in for the night or something. Maybe they’re there. Maybe they’re on their way to Ocean City. All right. Okay. Um, but you. You make the point. Even if s o, I call someone’s made a hundred dollars gift I call and the donor the donor says, Yeah, yeah, I’ve got I’ve got space on my calendar. We could we could do it on, uh, we could do with this Friday. Yeah. Yeah. You want to turn that? You want me to turn that down? I do. I want you to turn that down because I’m trying to train up your patterns and habits, and I’m trying to get a read. I’m trying to get a signal from the donor as to whether or not you’re truly a priority for them. Um, and so I want you to stay to them. No, I can’t do that. Um, one of things. A new development. A new development officer who’s just starting out. He or she will generally answer that question. And if you say I could get together this Friday, once you come on over, you know, development offices, that development officer that’s not all that busy would say. Sure, I can do that. Yeah, but our ability to maintain most of my development officers are hearing for me that I want fifteen to twenty meetings a month. You’re not going to get into the habit of successfully scheduling fifteen to twenty meetings a month if you’re not scheduling them two weeks out. And so you have to start setting yourself up now for what? You anticipate your schedule look like? Um okay, I don’t Okay? I don’t understand that. I don’t understand your premise. How come? Are you all right? We gotta take a break. So I’m going there on here. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Uh, we take a break, but I’m goingto I’m challenging something. I don’t understand your premise. You just said you’re not gonna be able to schedule fifteen to twenty meetings a month if you’re if you’re not scheduling them two more. Two more weeks out. Okay? I don’t understand. I don’t understand that premise, but we’re gonna take a break, and then I’ll let you go. You respond? Yep. Our last break text to give diversify your revenue by adding mobile. Giving another another revenue. Diverse afire. Mobile giving. Not only for disasters. You can build relationships by text. Where was Jason? Just talking about using technology. You see how this fits together to not happen. Stance As much a cz Many times I tell you, I feel like a taste. My mother still doesn’t believe it. Um, I should use my my dad is the example. So I’m like, my dad still doesn’t believe it. You can’t build relationships by technology and by text. You’re doing it all the time with family and friends. Do it with donors. You can learn how, by the five party male, many course. It dispels misconceptions and explains how to get started. Build relationships through technology, see how it fits together. Text NPR to four, four, four nine nine, nine. We’ve got several more minutes left for the war for fund-raising talent. Okay. Jason Lewis. So, um, yeah, I don’t understand your premise. What? Well, how come I can’t schedule fifteen to twenty if I if I do use the intervening two weeks from from when I’m making calls. Yeah. So I want the development officer to get into a habit of scheduling all of his or her meetings two weeks out so that he or she can maximize his or her time. Um, and, you know, have the advantage of time to do that. Scheduling it’s what I’m trying to get you to avoid is a tear. Any of the urgent? So a lot of develop a lot of non-profit two years of any sort are running around putting fires out all the time, Um, because they’re allowing the tyranny of the urgent to sort of overwhelmed them. And I don’t want that, too to factor into your fund-raising practices anymore than I want that to factor in anywhere else. Um, so I’m both trying tio to coach the development officer in his or her management of their time, And I’m also trying to ensure that the donor is signaling back to you that you’re a priority for them. And that’s what this particular deliberate practice does is that it signals, um it also signals to the development. I mean, it’s signals to the donor. Yes. I called you up here with the donor. If you’re the donor and I call you up. And I said, Can we get together? And you say, Come on over tomorrow and I say, No, I can’t do that. I’m busy. That also signals to you that I’m a busy guy and that my time is important. Um, and okay, okay. I get your Yeah. All right. All right. So there’s some, uh, little bit of scarcity. You know, my time is important. Uh, it’s and it’s already booked, so Okay. All right. And he’s not your only you understand. That’s not your only you know that. That’s not loose back all the way back to where we started at the beginning of the conversation. I mean, if we’re constantly in this sort of this here inferior spot, Um, you know, we’re always in this sort of begging posture allowing the donor to sort of do whatever they say we’re going to do, um, whether it be on the schedule or what we do with their money? Um, yeah. Okay. Let’s talk about another deliberate practice we got. We got five of them. Yes. Go ahead. You name one. Then I’ll pick one after you go ahead or the last one. The last one, I think, is the one that tends to push my development officers the most. And that is that you always ask in person, and you follow-up on paper. And what that means is so Earlier this week, I was in Texas with one of my clients and I’m coaching the gentleman on on how to solicit gifts. And And I’m insisting that first you asked the donor for this gift in person, and then you be prepared when you return to the office. If you haven’t already drafted this letter, you re articulate exactly what was, uh, what what was requested. And you put it back and you put it in the mail so that the donor receives that essentially the same request in written form. What that does it does. It does a couple of things, um, the first thing that it does that ensures that the person who’s, uh, making the solicitation in person, it ensures that they’re speaking very explicitly that they’re not sort of beating around the bush with whatever they’re asking for because they know that there’s a letter back it back at the office. It’s going to get written that’s going to state everything explicitly, um, and written out as well. The other thing that it does that create sort of AA closing of the, uh uh, the the oversight loop, if you will. The way in which development officers air over the way in which there e-giving oversight from their supervisors this letter, this letter that goes out to Mr Mrs Smith, it says thank you for meeting with me. I hope you’ll you know, if you give consideration to the gift of ex, whatever I asked you for, close that loop with the supervisor cubine carbon copy the supervisor on this loop and it essentially signals to the developer to the boss to the managing to the over the manager is that you’re essentially doing your job. Um, one of the things I critique development officers all the time for doing is we think that they’re paid. We the non-profits think that these people are paid to raise money. They’re not actually paid to raise money. They’re paid to ask for money, but we don’t give any way. For our supervisors are boards and bosses to ever see that they’re raised that they’re asking for money. So this is just one of those ways that we can demonstrate that we’re going, you know, full circle that from the point at which we, you know, acknowledged the first gift to the point at which we asked for a very significant gift. That’s what you’re getting paid for. You’re not getting paid for. Ah, guaranteeing that that person turns around, writes a check that’s not within your control. Okay, Jason. Unbelievably, we have to leave it there. We did not get to the full five delivered practices which are assigned list. You should have one hundred fifty. No more than fifty and meaningful conversations are. That’s a good one. Meaningful conversations you’ve got. You’ve got to get the book. You know, you don’t want to have these shallow conversations on DH. Subsequent meetings should be in teams. Those of the three that we didn’t get to the book is the war for fund-raising talent. You’ll find that Amazon, you’ll find Jason Lewis. He’s all around, Let’s see. But specifically, you’ll find him at the generous life and that louis fund-raising dot com. Jason, thank you so much. Thank you. Tony has been great for my pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for putting me at the top of the other ten or twelve podcasts that did not ask about harmony. No slackers. Slackers like lost a lackluster, lackluster podcasters. Okay, next week, talk about lackluster. I don’t know. I don’t know what next week’s show is going to be. If you missed any part of today’s show. I beseech you, Find it on tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P by Wagner CPAs. Guiding you Beyond the numbers records cps dot com By Tello’s Credit card and Payment Processing You’re passive revenue stream Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers Claire Meyerhoff, Sam Liebert, says the line producer. There is no music. How can I say the music is by Scott Stein? There it is. That’s a family with the line producer. It’s his job to put the music up. Show Social Media’s by Susan Chavez. He’s ninety nine out of one hundred, so, you know, give him a break. 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