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Nonprofit Radio for February 7, 2020: Neurodiversity

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My Guest:

Peter Shankman: Neurodiversity
Up to 30% of the workforce will be neurodivergent in the next 10-15 years. What is it and how can you get the competitive edge today by taking advantage of these specially-talented workers’ skills? Peter Shankman returns to share his quite personal explanation.

 

 

 

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[00:00:14.44] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:00:16.49] spk_3:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the

[00:00:19.68] spk_2:
other 95%

[00:01:18.98] spk_3:
on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our fourth show in the Innovators. Siri’s neural diversity up to 30% of the workforce will be neuro divergent in the next 10 to 15 years. What is it and how can you get the competitive edge today by taking advantage of these especially talented workers skills, Peter Shankman returns to the show to share his quite personal explanation. Tony Stake to planned giving for the decade were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. It’s

[00:01:19.11] spk_2:
a pleasure

[00:02:17.54] spk_3:
to welcome back to the show. Peter Shankman. The New York Times has called him a rock star who knows everything about social media and then some. He’s a five time best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker, focusing on customer service and the new and emerging customer and neuro atypical economy. He’s recognized worldwide for radically new ways of thinking about the customer experience, social media, PR marketing, advertising and a DHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. As he checks his email on his on his watch on the new neuro diverse economy, he was the founder of Haro. Help! A reporter out. He leads Shank Mines, Breakthrough Network on online mastermind of thought leaders, business experts and change makers. Peter’s got a podcast faster than normal. It’s the number one podcast on a DHD focusing on the superpowers and gif ts of having a faster than normal brain. He’s a father, a two time Ironman triathlete in a Class B licensed skydiver. He’s at shankman dot com And at Peter Shankman. Welcome back to the show.

[00:02:27.53] spk_0:
Good to be back. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:38.14] spk_3:
Thank you. Pleasure. I’m glad you’re in the neighborhood is easy because you walk over on a Not a bad winter day. Not too cold. Yeah. Yeah. Um So

[00:02:38.85] spk_2:
you’re a

[00:02:47.83] spk_3:
diversity, I guess. Obviously the place to start is to define it. You have a whole podcast about it. What are we talking about? What fits under it? No. Diversity

[00:02:58.70] spk_0:
is any kind of faster brain, any kind of different. You know, growing up a DHD didn’t exist. 80 evening, Just, uh, in the public schools in New York. It was Sit down. You dropped in the glasses, Eat. Yeah, and I have had a very large dose of that, and it

[00:03:05.17] spk_6:
caused a lot

[00:03:13.11] spk_0:
of grief. You know, I had a school was not easy for me. And it wasn’t that I didn’t want to focus. It wasn’t that I didn’t want to pay attention. It wasn’t that I enjoyed acting out in class, but I did enjoy a glass. But, you know, it was best mates. Enjoyed it very much so. And what I

[00:03:18.58] spk_6:
realized. No, I’m looking back on it. That’s exactly

[00:04:45.00] spk_0:
it was I when I could make the kids laugh. That gave me a hit of dopamine, and that gave me a hit of adrenaline that give me a hit of serotonin and all those things that the newer, diverse brain, especially the DHD brain, doesn’t make enough of. Right. Um, when you’re a DHD, you have about 25% less of these chemicals than a normal regular speed person. And so your constant looking for ways, not intentionally. Just subconsciously you’re looking for ways to replenish those. Yeah, simply the rain in to get you know what? When when a regular person says Okay, I have I have math class. I don’t like math, but I’ll get through it, you know, they sit there and they say, Okay, I gotta learn this stuff and they look at it and they focus on it. They learn it. You know, when I do something I don’t like it. It requires a commitment and a set up to get it done. You know, I don’t, um things I don’t enjoy, but I have to do is part of life. I have to, uh, uh promote myself into a different way of being to get it done. It’s why I’ll never hold a meeting. Ah, where we sit down, right? None of my one of my meetings or sit down meetings. They are either stand up or walk around meetings. I people have called me the Aaron Sorkin of meetings and that that we will do a walk and talk for 30 minutes as opposed to, you know, Let’s go. Let’s go get a coffee and we’ll clear across town and coffee. That’s something we have to walk to get our meeting them, but it’s It’s better and more conductive and more conducive than sitting there in a room. You know, if I have to meet with people who I don’t have a choice and they’re gonna force me to sit down, you know, I’ll walk beforehand. I’ll take the, you know, take the stairs. I just don’t like that, You know, I walked over here, by the way, the west on highway to go three blocks

[00:05:05.84] spk_3:
that way, west

[00:05:06.46] spk_0:
way west to come back just to get a good 20 minute hit. Okay? Don’t mean I was

[00:05:10.89] spk_3:
wondering. I was starting to feel a little nervous that I was forced to

[00:05:16.14] spk_6:
sit for an hour. Now I got Yeah, we’re scared me, you know, in hours and hours. A

[00:05:19.41] spk_0:
bit much every interview that we doing on the podcast. We’ve had over 200 of them. We’ve had a CEO’s that Tony Robbins, Seth Godin, Keith Crouch. You found a doctor sign. Dave Needleman found a JetBlue Joe dissent in front of the Spartan race. The band shined down had countless really, really smart people. And each podcast is only 20 minutes because, well, a few day and so, you know, to to to sit someone like me sitting for an hour.

[00:05:43.56] spk_6:
You know, isn’t this really the worst thing? The world?

[00:05:45.21] spk_0:
But it’s it requires a commitment requires two requires a way to make the brain work for me.

[00:05:52.02] spk_3:
And so that was the walk.

[00:05:52.95] spk_6:
That was a lot

[00:05:53.41] spk_3:
of the preparation. Exactly. Thank you for doing it.

[00:05:55.98] spk_6:
And I have No, I

[00:06:52.74] spk_0:
have I have Ah, very, you know, sort of fundamental, um, things that I have to do every day to to to simply get myself through the day to have good days. You know, every morning has to start with exercise being a single dad. I can’t get the gym every day, have a pelt on bike, and I’m on that bike. On the days that my daughter, which is a little over half the week, um, I am on that bike, usually around 4 a.m. On my bike for an hour and 1/2. It’s obviously not to lose weight, you know, if it is, I’m doing something wrong, but it’s it’s to keep the brain focus. And I’ll do, you know, 2025 miles, and I will, you know, get off the bike. And I’m just I’m I’m perfectly wired. Right. I have a phenomenal way of of sort of approaching the world, which is a lot easier and better than if I didn’t do it, you know, and I sort of went in a little muddled a little, you know, not short myself. It it’s my form of medication. And

[00:06:55.39] spk_6:
I’m not anti

[00:06:58.07] spk_0:
met. I mean, I have a prescription. I take it every once in a while. I’m not on it today. You call

[00:07:00.14] spk_3:
it your expense account.

[00:07:01.37] spk_6:
Yeah. My expense account

[00:07:18.05] spk_0:
medication. When my assistant sits me down, says if you don’t get me these receipts and find the stuff, you have to get me. You know, the next today, you know you’re not gonna get paid. Your clients are competitive. Okay? I’ll sit down and I’ll figure out, uh, you know. Okay, let’s take this pill, sit down, get the work done. In focus of Other than that, I prefer to get my my medication in more natural ways. The exercises. Skydiving, public speaking. Things

[00:07:32.39] spk_3:
like you told psychology today that to write a book? If you If you have a writing project, you book a round trip flight Asia.

[00:08:23.61] spk_0:
Three of my last five trips have three minutes. Five books have been written entirely in airplanes. The last two. I booked a flight to Asia with no real reason. Euthanasia other than to write the book. Um, I actually wrote zombie loyalists. I sat down on the plane. Um, booked. It looks like the Asia it was doing two weeks haven’t read anything. I did all the research hadn’t relating. Booked a flight to Asia road chapters one through five in the flat out landed in Tokyo. Went to lounge to the shower. Have a cup of coffee. Get back on the same plane. Same seat two hours later. You’re not stay overnight, even stay the night. Wrote chapter 6 to 10 on the flight home. And, um, you know, went, uh, they got held up by, um, homeland Security for two hours, wondering why I was nature for 90 minutes and never actually immigration something that proved interesting, but it sure was running a bucket.

[00:08:25.53] spk_2:
Now I would say that That sounds to me like incredible focus.

[00:08:45.92] spk_0:
Well, the beauty of a DHD is that you can hyper focus. You can hyper focus. If you like to do something, you can sit down. And just if the situation is right and you’ve given yourself the right of it, sit down and you know I’ll put together a 1600 piece Lego Lego set in three hours. Yeah, I love doing it, but you know, if it’s something I don’t like doing, you have to. I have to make it work and it’s It’s not easy

[00:09:00.19] spk_3:
now. Five years ago you were You were with us was roughly five years. We’re talking about zombie loyalists. Um, uh, do you I gotta just focus back. Or do you still you still in Morton’s? I’m

[00:09:05.15] spk_6:
still martignetti Angeles way just

[00:09:13.73] spk_3:
played. We just played the show like, four or five weeks ago so listeners will know that it’s a story in Newark Airport. Yeah,

[00:09:47.83] spk_0:
so fan of Morton’s, you know, still go there quite frequently. It’s it’s phenomenal steaks. They still treat me very well. Um, I It’s funny over time that people still tell that story and and it’s still you know, not so much a customer is its customer experience. Not. It’s not PR. It’s not. Social media is custom experience, right? They were a little bit out of their way, and that’s not their job. The job isn’t going to take the airport. The job is that clear right? Have a great time. And so so So they’re still very good at that. Have they gotten bad at that? You know, they were bought by a company called Landry’s, and Landers owns them now. And

[00:09:52.37] spk_3:
Texas? Yeah, let’s take Texas

[00:09:54.64] spk_0:
unfortunate. Unfortunately, Andrews is still very, very, very big on customer experience, so it’s still a good place to

[00:10:39.04] spk_3:
go. Okay, let me take our first break. Wegner-C.P.As. You know, they go beyond the numbers. They’ve got videos. Do you have immigrant employees? They’ve got I nine tips. They’ve got high impact grant proposals. Also sexual harassment, awareness, video and others. You’ll find them at wegner-C.P.As dot com. Quick resource is and recorded events. Now let’s go back to neuro diversity. Peter Shankman checks is, uh, Texas. Take it. Work email. He does, uh, taking advantage of Ah, 32nd. I didn’t tell you was only 32nd break. Each break is doing well. The next one’s about a minute and 1/2. I

[00:10:41.29] spk_0:
could write a book,

[00:10:48.14] spk_3:
book your flight. All right. You could book the flight to write the book. Um, now you mentioned single Dad. Something has happened in the past five years. I’m sorry about

[00:10:51.18] spk_6:
that. I think things happen

[00:10:52.78] spk_3:
for a reason.

[00:11:05.33] spk_0:
The universe in its one told the way it should. I’m still very good friends of my ex. We have a great relationship, but I don’t have Thio. You know, they’re just certain times that you realize that that, um, the universe unfolds like Is that the way it should? And so I love being a single bad. My daughter is six and 1/2. Um, God help you if you forget the half. Um, she’s not just six, uh, give Aquino yesterday the Lego. And so when she comes home tonight, there are 15 new Lego sets.

[00:11:23.07] spk_3:
That school was a three hour keynote where

[00:11:27.52] spk_6:
it was 45 minutes. But it was very cool to hang out there

[00:11:29.40] spk_3:
and it couldn’t be done.

[00:12:51.12] spk_0:
I have. I am now the one of the first owners of the new international Space station Lego, which doesn’t hit stores. You’re worried. You’re very excited about that. So now it’s fun. It’s, uh, you know, I I love, try to explain. It was fun to watch her. Don’t explain what Daddy does for a living. Daddy talks to people, you know, It’s pretty much what I do. Yeah. On. You know how me since it in office of Daddy talks to people I like. I like my title better, but, you know, it’s it’s fun. It’s It does provides some interesting, uh, logistical, uh, intrigue. You know, I I know all single parents record. A lot of my travel is international. Um, I you know, I give speeches over the world and, you know, a couple of scholars and Asia. I gave a talk, um, on a Friday. And so I left Wednesday morning, uh, dropped my daughter off at school Wednesday morning. Went right to work. Um, booked a flight. Uh, are you boarded? A flight Wednesday at around 11 to Tokyo landed Thursday night at 7 p.m. Um, spoke. You know, went to those health, got some sleep, woke up, went to the gym, spoke at 9 a.m. Friday morning I was taken to the airport, got on a 2 p.m. Flight are four PM flight from Tokyo on Friday afternoon and landed in New York with time change at 4 p.m. Find infinite. And when I’m picking my daughter and you know, I was a zombie, but I didn’t miss a night with her. You know, it’s tough, but it’s a lot of fun. And, um, I couldn’t imagine, you know, doing anything

[00:13:05.30] spk_3:
Excellent. What else besides a DHD falls under no

[00:13:09.50] spk_6:
diversity in any kind

[00:13:39.03] spk_0:
of brain that is different than what we consider normal. So, you know, we’re looking at a Ph. D a d d. Autism executive function spending on the spectrum Asperger’s things like that and what we’re finding, and what studies have finding is that, um when creative people who are and almost everyone with a no diversion brain is creative, when these great people are given the ability to work in a way that works for them, right? Productivity goes to the roof

[00:13:40.18] spk_6:
dyslexia, just like she is

[00:13:46.11] spk_0:
included as well. And productivity goes through the roof. And, um, but you have to understand how people work, not everyone.

[00:13:50.14] spk_4:
Um uh

[00:14:12.08] spk_0:
works the same way, you know, And and, uh, the premise of we all have to get in at 9 a.m. And punch in and do that, you know, is really a thing of the past. And what companies are finding is if they allow their employees to, um, work the way that works for them. Company productivity goes to the roof. We’ve seen that countless times, over and over and over again. You know, you look at a company that has these rigid rules, which is a company that allows people to do work the way they want to and the people who do it the way they want to tend to the company, send a much more productive and generate more revenue unless cost.

[00:14:27.58] spk_3:
Okay. And this includes the newer, diverse community

[00:16:30.51] spk_0:
don’t know much about. You know, you’re looking at a workforce 25 to 30% want provide motivation. 25 to 30% of the workforce is gonna be no divers. And these are the people who are your creative right. These the people who are coming up with new ways to work new ideas, these the ones who are creating who are discovering all these sort of things. Good friend of mine is a PhD candidate at Harvard, and, um, she is very much engaged, and she, you know, they work in a lab where she she’s a PhD in the something with skin, huh? I’m totally spacing, not dermatology. I’m spacing. Basically, she she works with skin cells, and, um, you know, so she says a lot of time on her feet in a lab, you know, mixing skin cells, whatever does they dio? And then, um, she has to go back and analyze the data and what she does when she analyzed that data, she actually goes into a conference room that no one is in, and we’ll sit with her charts and her laptop in her, grafts on that and do the same thing that she could do at her desk. But her desk is an open floor plan. And even with headphones, she sees people at the corner of her eye walking around this and that and a distraction. And so she goes into a place where she can work and she will be 10 times productive and, you know, 1/3 of the time it would take her to do it or to other people to do it. So you know. And she explained that to her. Her, um, director, You know the labs. Look, look, just trust me this I work better this way. And sure enough, she does. You know, Andi, the her output is is very, very high. Um, but she has to be in that in that zone, you know, that’s my zona focuses an airplane. You know, it’s it’s or, you know, it’s also places where, um I’m able to get the dope mean that I need and then utilize it. So the thing about don’t mean is that once you get a huge hit of it, it doesn’t just go away. All right? You have to disperse it out over several hours has dissipate. So when I go to the drop zone upstate, I’ll take my my parachute, my rig, and I’ll do a jump and I land and I’ll throw my gear in the corner. Tony, re pack up some of you in the corner. Pull up my laptop, right. 10,000 words. Really? Oh, yeah, in like an hour. Yeah,

[00:16:36.85] spk_6:
I after, right after the jump. So you

[00:16:39.50] spk_3:
somewhere and then you know,

[00:16:40.82] spk_0:
I I land at the drop zone carrying my gear into the hangar. I throw in a corner, I pull out my laptop just right of the

[00:16:47.93] spk_3:
drops. Are you already at a building? And you start writing? Yeah,

[00:16:50.30] spk_0:
and I’m sitting up on the floor of my lifetime. I was right because, you know, that’s where I’m just so full of those chemicals. It’s like it’s like it’s like I’ve just done a lot of coke, You know it and it’s great. It’s healthy, a lot healthier than doing a lot of guys suppose for sure. But you know it. You don’t just get rid of it

[00:17:06.28] spk_6:
and all those chemicals in there, because the goal is to

[00:17:08.25] spk_0:
keep you alive. When you’re in the air, right, you’re don’t means you’re turning your gentle and they all are front and center when you’re jumping. Because for someone like me, you know, totally imagine myself without those chemicals.

[00:17:18.02] spk_6:
Okay, out the plane I gotta pull my parachute to look at the sun’s all shiny,

[00:18:18.71] spk_0:
you know? So so the chemicals are there to prevent that on, but when you land, they don’t just go away. You have to dissipate them of several hours. So for me, you know, that’s when I get somebody’s work done. That’s a great man. That’s great story works. It works really well, it’s Ah, it’s Ah, you know, you know where you are. Some people, it’s a run. I’ve done 5 10 mile runs and I’ll come back and be so wired that also dental work as well. Um, I’ll take a shower first, but, you know, it is it does. You’ve got to figure out what works for you and what works for employees, you know? And if you give your employees that ability to do that to to to work in such a way where they can, um, be most beneficial to themselves. You know, that’s the biggest thing we don’t seem to realize is that you know, this whole mentality of all work, work, work. Now, you know, no sleep work is bullshit. You know, if you don’t know how to take care of yourself first, right? If you’re not putting yourself first, if you’re not putting self care first, you know, if you have some of these entrepreneurs out there, you

[00:18:20.40] spk_6:
know, if you have, you know, work for 12 hours. Then you come home. We have to feed your kid if you only have four hours of sleep. Well, sleep two of them. And what you just told someone kill themselves. What is wrong with

[00:18:28.12] spk_0:
you? You gotta focus on yourself. You take care yourself. Self care is massive. Important exercise. Eat a goddamn vegetable. Everyone’s don’t write. Not everything has to come in a burger or a bun.

[00:18:37.93] spk_3:
Yeah, take care of yourself. Then you can

[00:18:41.30] spk_6:
take the oxygen mask their

[00:18:42.14] spk_3:
caregivers for auction parents. Yeah. All right. So how are we doing? Oh, I’m not. I’m too far from my Oh, I was worried about him. I’m too far. Okay, Um,

[00:18:54.34] spk_0:
no one’s ever told me I’m too soft. Uh, the letter.

[00:19:05.43] spk_3:
Let’s Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Beautiful segue way. So let’s talk about employers. Let’s start with the, um, the recruiting. It’s gotta be different than sitting for an interview for 30 or 40 minutes. But

[00:19:10.91] spk_0:
there’s a man who just told me I have to sit here for an hour,

[00:19:12.81] spk_6:
but I would argue that it does. It does have to be fun. Interview. Here’s the thing

[00:19:24.68] spk_0:
about what has to be different you know, you have to understand that the people you’re hiring again, they come from them. 50 years ago, any kind of disability was not talked about, right? I love that episode of Mad Men Where the guys a raging alcoholic and

[00:19:31.97] spk_6:
says, You know, you go away, we’ll tell people you’re on

[00:19:33.77] spk_0:
your own. You know, in a client leave for three months ago

[00:19:37.06] spk_6:
upstate you come back a new

[00:19:39.75] spk_0:
man, you know, telling people your client leave for three months. Three

[00:19:42.41] spk_6:
hysterical people half the shorts I own probably state

[00:19:49.75] spk_0:
that I’m a th day. My favorite shirt is a DHD in the in the font of a C D c h d. I’m on a highway to oh, squirrel, you know? And so it’s it’s it’s that waiter,

[00:19:56.45] spk_3:
huh? Wait, what?

[00:19:57.03] spk_0:
Highway to squirrel? Squirrel. And so, you know, I love that I love that premise and and the fact that we are sort of out there and talking about it and proud of how our brains work, you know? So

[00:20:08.74] spk_6:
before you can even start recruiting,

[00:20:36.83] spk_0:
you have to. As a company, you have to understand that you have to own that, you know, and make your workforce a place where the neuro diverse want to work because they have the opportunity to go anywhere now and, you know, much like it comes down. University. Essentially what back in the nineties and earlytwo thousands, diversity was was skin color, and then it became sexual orientation, you know, and and now it has to become no diversity.

[00:20:37.64] spk_3:
Is this not covered under the Americans disability? That it is now is

[00:22:07.53] spk_0:
not so you know it. Perhaps it will be, but the you know and I’m not a lawyer any like that. But the premise have, Doctor, there’s say that more often, but the premises is that you have to. I understand that if you’re hiring, you know, people need to work in a certain way, and if you are willing to give them the opportunity, they will impress you. Every single time. I had a I had a I was doing consulting gig for a company big fast food chain, didn’t know them, and, um, they were trying to figure out how to get had a cater to you, the New Rivers market and, you know, let’s go and let’s have lunch at your restaurants. We went into one of the restaurants 135 items on the menu in front over ads interspersed with commercials on a digital board. I want to blow my brains out, you know, walk into you. So I said, OK, let’s go. Someone’s on the West Coast. Let’s go somewhere else now and let’s walk down the street to in and out Burger, where the menu is hamburger cheeseburger fries shake, right? You see the Peacefulness here? The com That’s the one you know you have to understand. Sometimes the concept of choice is death sentence, right? And so how can you give your employees that which they need? I joke if I’m dating someone Are you know, said this summer my wife the time she never really understood it. But the premises, like, don’t. If we’re gonna go out for dinner and I ask you what you want, don’t

[00:22:10.92] spk_6:
say Oh, just pick something.

[00:22:22.63] spk_0:
Anything’s fine because you will wind up trying monkey brains. You know, I guarantee that you know, instead say, I’m feeling either Italian or Chinese. Great. You’ve just given me two options. I will pick one, right, But don’t Don’t tell me or whatever you want because that’s

[00:22:25.31] spk_3:
not walk up and down Ninth at

[00:22:26.63] spk_6:
45 minutes. Exactly.

[00:22:39.01] spk_0:
Zimbabwe. Exactly. So be aware of of how you’re working with these people talking to them how you were doing with them. You know, for instance, I have a lot of clients who are their famous

[00:22:41.26] spk_6:
catchphrase. I just get anyone

[00:22:58.25] spk_0:
can get it. No rush. Well, that’s that’s That’s not okay, because I will never get it, because you’ll be the most important thing on my plate until the next important thing. So I require every client to give me a deadline. I require my assistant to get me a deadline for every single thing I have to do. Actually, I need

[00:23:02.34] spk_6:
this Thursday, 3 p.m. Okay, if I know is there’s a big BM. I’m gonna get it done. If you tell me you can get it whenever, okay, I’ll get to it. And you’re

[00:23:05.32] spk_0:
never getting that thing. So you have to give me a deadline

[00:23:08.64] spk_3:
on part of this preparation is sensitizing the other employees in the in the office, in the in the organization as to what? What you expect.

[00:23:18.80] spk_6:
Yeah, you know, it’s not. It’s not like you need to widen

[00:23:44.23] spk_0:
your doors because you bring in a wheelchair, right? It’s very, very subtle. A lot of times, Um, I have a friend of mine who has a sign on on his because he’s standing there and he’s sitting in his desk and it’s an open floor plan. She has headphones on, and he has a sign that he puts on his back. Um, you may bother me. You may not bother me, right? And if it says you may not bother me, people know to email him or leave him alone. If it says you may bother me, he’s working on something he can’t be interrupted for because thing about that is that the way the brain works is that every time you get disrupted and that could be a something simple text or email or ding from your devices. Yeah, the second you get that ding, it takes roughly 24 minutes to get back into a level of what’s called deep work. Cal Cal Norris wrote a book called Deport 24 minutes, 24 minutes. So

[00:24:08.58] spk_6:
if you get two e mails a day or two miles an hour,

[00:24:16.95] spk_0:
you’re getting nothing done. E mean slack has destroyed more productivity than an atom bomb. It is amazing how many

[00:24:20.88] spk_6:
we love slack. We use a religiously well,

[00:24:22.53] spk_0:
your productivity is going down and down. You know, my ex ex

[00:24:27.15] spk_6:
wife uses that productivity tool. It’s not. I watched her productivity goto hell when she’s using it, because she she she sits there and she she gets a response. Delicate responded right away. Well, now she’s just

[00:24:37.14] spk_0:
completely lost the train of thought 40 was working on, and it’s not gonna come back. And

[00:24:40.84] spk_6:
next thing you know, it’s two hours later. It’s

[00:24:59.85] spk_0:
lunchtime, you know, again, that’s my yet. Ah, lot of times no diverse people are gonna put rules in the place that work for them. You know, I have meetings on one day a week and they’re walking meetings like I said, but I don’t have meetings every single day. You will never catch me for a random coffee, right? You’re not gonna have coffee at 2 p.m. On Wednesday because that means I have to leave. I have to get ready to leave around one. I have to leave my apartment. 1 15 I have in my office. I have to get their meat. You it to meet from 2 to 30 to 45 Walk back to my office, Sit back down, get to It’s

[00:25:18.05] spk_6:
not gonna happen, you know, instead of going to meet you, now let’s do 15

[00:25:18.83] spk_0:
miles will head home. I’ll head home. I’m not gonna be productive at home. And I would be in the office, so we’re not gonna be like that. You wanna meet

[00:25:23.42] spk_6:
with me? Let’s meet at six a.

[00:25:27.28] spk_0:
M. For coffee or spin class or run in the park or something like that. And I will

[00:25:30.07] spk_6:
do that

[00:26:07.35] spk_0:
with you on that. It’s actually wonderfully. Ah, Darwinist IQ is well in that Those rules. If you want to meet me, we will meet before 6 a.m. for coffee for a workout. I’ll even take you to cryotherapy. Um, the greatest thing about that is that it Dominus tickly eliminates 97% of the people who said they don’t have meetings with me because if they can’t get up, if it’s not worth it to them to get up it 5 a.m. For him to meet with me. Whatever chance I don’t work with him. And so it eliminates the majority of people out there, which is really coming in the day. I hate people. An

[00:26:08.82] spk_2:
enormous part of

[00:26:10.89] spk_6:
less People have to deal with them.

[00:26:17.99] spk_3:
That’s why they’re spitting them to death and offering quite exactly cryotherapy on your terms.

[00:26:20.59] spk_2:
So a lot. So I understand.

[00:26:22.04] spk_3:
A lot of it is You have to recognize for yourself what helps

[00:26:25.70] spk_6:
is the thing you ever do you understand what works for you, right? I

[00:27:05.54] spk_0:
mean, you know, I rarely drink. I’m not gonna say I never drink occasionally, everybody, it’s very rare because I don’t have one drink. You know, I have six drinks because they’re there, and it’s very easy not to have that first drink. It’s after the first drink, but it’s very hard to sing the second time. Yeah, and so I joke. I have two speeds and only to speed. They have NAMA stay and I’ll cut a bitch and there’s no middle ground there. There’s no I don’t have a middle ground, you know You’re not going to see me. Okay, I’ll have What would Leo McGarry say in the West Wing is I don’t understand people who leave wine. You have a glass and leave half a glass. One of table. What’s wrong with him, right? Why wouldn’t you want that all the time? And it’s hundreds of true. And so what I find is that it’s much easier for me to have a club soda and not have that first drink. Um, because also, I have a drink and I have five drinks. Then

[00:27:17.15] spk_6:
I go home. I’m not drunk.

[00:27:18.84] spk_0:
I’m not, you know, slurring my words. I’m not, uh, pillaging villages. Really that. But I go to bed a little later than I want to. I wake up a little later. I might not have time for the gym when I’m trying to work out. Then my day is less than you know. And that’s why I get into that system in the first place.

[00:27:34.04] spk_3:
So, uh, let’s take our like, our second break, which is, uh, about a minute and 1/2.

[00:27:39.27] spk_6:
I’m getting water. Water?

[00:29:30.84] spk_3:
Yes, absolutely. Um, quote We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain software. It’s rare to encounter a problem with it, but they are always there to help walk. Be through it. Well, end quote I paraphrase a couple of words, but nothing substantive, certainly from Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. More raves about the customer service at Cougar Mountain Accounting Software. They have a free 60 day trial for listeners. It’s on the listener landing page, which is at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant now. Time for Tony’s Take Two. Your Decade Plan for planned giving. I put a good amount of thought into if, where you could be by 2029 if you start your plans giving fundraising program in 2020. Don’t just think of a year long plan. Think of the decade. In 10 years you’ll be You’ll have an enormous amount of people in your recognition society, which means you’ve got enormous amount of planned GIF ts. You’ll be recognizing revenue from the from the program. You’ll be offering a lot of different vehicles way beyond just charitable bequests, which is a place to start. Um, you might even by that time have either have or have the evidence that you should have a full time director of planned giving you can be. You could be very far along and planned giving fundraising by 2029 if you start in 2020 and I lay out a decade long plan in the video, which is your That’s it. You’re decade plan for planned giving, and it is at Tony’s take to know that is Tony’s take to the video. Is that tony-martignetti dot com? Now let’s go back to Nora. Diversity

[00:29:32.99] spk_0:
the pill because I have some

[00:29:34.53] spk_2:
I’m feeling. No, you said you make it sound. Not so bad I joined

[00:29:46.79] spk_3:
the club, Our fourth entry in The Innovators, Siri’s with Peter Shankman about emerging neural divergent economies on the workforce. Um,

[00:29:49.32] spk_2:
yeah, no, I mean when you have it

[00:29:50.43] spk_3:
under management and you and you have figured out what?

[00:29:53.50] spk_6:
Well, that’s it. You’re out. There was a scientist

[00:30:03.92] spk_0:
once who came out, but don’t don’t. Scientists came up with this term of somebody call type type T and there’s tape, Tea party, you know, you you take These are type B’s in the tape tee, and then he divided that in taped a pilot of type B negative type B

[00:30:11.87] spk_6:
positive. Basically type tease

[00:30:23.70] spk_0:
the ones who take risks. They like to you know, they’re a DHD. Their brains produce less mon ami inhibitors than no people motto. Motto mean mono amine ox. Today’s inhibitors Okay, I type probably totally butchered, butchered that term. But again, that’s why I’m not a doctor.

[00:30:30.06] spk_6:
So the top, that’s the stuff that makes us

[00:33:00.44] spk_0:
don’t mean right. And if you have, people like me have 25% less of them. That’s why we do things to you know, that’s what we got. That’s why we did. But there’s two into this scientist, uh, theorized that there were two types of type t type B positive and type B negative in Tempe. Positive people who get that I don’t mean and the adrenaline that search on those modeling oxidase inhibitors in positive ways. Right? So I speak publicly, you know, be on stage in front of 10,000 people. I’m high as a kite. Its greatest feeling in the world. Ah, skydiving exercise. Whatever. The guest of big, there are people who get those negative ways. Um, you know, crime, uh, drugs, whatever. And you know that how people you know, that there’s an estimation that 75% or higher number of people in prison number of males in prison are undiagnosed. 80 80 80. You know, it makes perfect sense, right? You’re You’re bored. You’re not excited. You need something So let’s, you know, get steal this car through bad bag, right? And so So it comes down to sort of what you can learn about yourself. You know, looking back on my schooling and realizing I mean, I I teach. Sometimes the teachers would talk about me and they couldn’t believed they were talking about the same kid because my English teacher would have nothing but rave reviews about how amazing I wasn’t how much how attended. I wasn’t how focused I wasn’t how much I look, how great of a writer I was. Mad teachers be like It’s not the same kid. He’s nothing but a distraction. He causes he, you know it needs to sit. Tony bugs the whole class. He doesn’t, you know. And it was like they were literally that. How are you talking about the same child? Campy. And it’s true, because in English, I was, you know, put put, uh, God, what’s the book? Black Boy by Richard Wright. You to read the freshman in high school, and I was just enthralled with that book I read, apparently every year. Now it’s such an amazing book, and you know, I remember reading, getting to Shakespeare and and pirate and just, you know, being they have to have to tap me on the shoulder to get me out of class because my next class, because I just be so enthralled. But I was sitting in math class, you know, I learned that you could sink your watch to the the Bell system. And so, you know, I’d be in math class. And then just for fun, just to mess with a teacher, I’d go 54321 and the Bellagio off right at a job, drove the teacher

[00:33:11.47] spk_6:
crazy. But I love

[00:33:34.06] spk_0:
that it comes down to understanding that some things you love, some things you don’t How do you change your brain so that the things you don’t love you can still do well. And that’s what um, uh, employers. I need to learn as well. Yeah, that not everything their employees do their employees and love. So how can you give them an environment that benefits them with stuff that they don’t love? They could still get through and do well

[00:33:49.62] spk_3:
first. Thank you for talking directly to the listeners who are neural diverse. More importantly, you’re motivating the individuals to listen. You want to talk about the organization,

[00:34:11.07] spk_0:
listeners. Kids are important as well, because right now they’re our listeners. Your show Who’s Children have just been diagnosed, like today or last week or whatever with a d d or a D h d. And they’re freaking out. The parents are freaking out more than the kids. And so to the parents, I tell you right now that your kid is not broken, pardon my French kids fucking awesome and and And your kid is gonna change the world. And you know, you don’t sit there and say, Oh my God, he’s not like everyone else. Be thankful he’s not like everyone else. Because if I was like everyone else, we wouldn’t be sitting here. I wouldn’t be on this on your show. I’d be working in an office somewhere and pretty miserable,

[00:34:25.86] spk_3:
Miserable. There wouldn’t be. Would not have been a hard right.

[00:34:27.73] spk_0:
No, that wouldn’t be Harold or anything like that. So, you know, I am so thankful every day on it again, growing up, a lot of it sucks because we didn’t know what it was. You know? I remember my dad.

[00:34:37.16] spk_6:
Why can’t you just listen in. Glad who knew? You know, I couldn’t. And and fortunately,

[00:34:49.03] spk_0:
we have much more knowledge now of you know what goes on with this button? Yeah. Thio To be able to have a different brand. I’m thankful for that every single day.

[00:35:06.74] spk_3:
So let’s talk organizationally. What can we do? Two way talk some about the preparation but the interviewing getting encouraging, people Thio come on. And proving to the individual that this is a place where you want to work

[00:35:47.34] spk_0:
Explain that you’re you’re company. Everyone says their companies different. Show that your company is different. You know, they’re some companies have completely outlawed meetings, right? Completely banned sitting in the conference room there cos a band power point. And I think that’s pretty the best thing you could possibly do, right? Who the hell wants to sit in the meeting for two hours looking at slide after slide and listen to a person explain those slides. You know, I’d rather jump out the window. So what can you do for your, um, for your employees to show not just tell, but to show that it’s a positive place to work. Right. Um, are you gonna let your

[00:35:48.57] spk_6:
and Santos about Oh, you’re going from home. Well, that’s great,

[00:35:51.27] spk_0:
But are you gonna give them the tools to do that right? It’s one

[00:35:54.95] spk_6:
thing to say Sure work from home. But home might not be the best

[00:36:15.13] spk_0:
place for people, either. I have a friend of mine who loves working. He lives in California and he loves working from parks, right? He’ll go like a national park and he’ll bring. He’ll have a wireless connection satellite, whatever Internet and, uh, you know, climb a mountain. And I said, the top of mountains work for, like, eight hours. Expect other people to go upto. You know, what’s

[00:36:17.16] spk_6:
the meaning of life? Nothing. But he said,

[00:36:18.60] spk_0:
their legs crossed with his laptop, getting work done, breathing fresh air. And he

[00:36:26.44] spk_6:
loves it. He’s so ridiculously productive, right? Enormously productive. Unbelievable. Yeah, he’s he’s returning. And he’s creative creative director Chris China, and he’s returning art

[00:36:31.45] spk_0:
artwork to the client that you know would blow you away. And he’s doing it because he’s in his his happy place.

[00:36:46.89] spk_3:
Yeah, um, and then and keeping people too, You know, you’ve shown them at the at the outset that this is a place that they want to be, um,

[00:36:47.45] spk_6:
keeping people in them. It’s important you have to be able to think about

[00:37:01.21] spk_0:
no diversity is that it’s fluid, right? It’s not If you try to grab on to it, you know, like a newtonian fluid that if you put your hand on very slowly, you can movie, handle the bottom. If you hit it really hard, you can’t even get 1/4 inch down, right? Basically, take some water and corn starch and mix them up, and you can create non Newtonian fluids. And the A

[00:37:11.78] spk_6:
D. H. D.

[00:37:12.19] spk_0:
And new diversity is similar in that if you

[00:37:14.08] spk_6:
try to hold on

[00:37:42.29] spk_0:
to it, you try to position them in one path where they’re not allowed to move. You’re gonna find resistance, right? But if you let it flow through you and and you understand, that’s a fluid system that does have to move, and that change has to happen and you have to be able to adapt to that, you’ll be a lot better. Offices, organization, you know, they’re gonna They’re gonna be times where, um, there are days when I wake up and no amount of exercise is going to get my focus on track for whatever reason, right, mate, And sleep well, whatever. But I’m not. I’m just not gonna be productive. And I know that. And I will tell Megan I’m like, Okay, you know what? I’m having a day Cancel my meetings. I’m going off the drop zone or I’m going swimming on workout.

[00:37:55.88] spk_3:
It’s that last minute.

[00:37:57.02] spk_6:
Yeah, and And I’ll feel it. I wake up thinking about

[00:37:59.93] spk_0:
some things off today, and

[00:38:02.16] spk_6:
that’s an end. It doesn’t happen. Rarely happens. But it does happen. Right? Um, it happened

[00:38:06.33] spk_0:
like, I think less and I was like, October. Um, and

[00:38:09.01] spk_6:
I felt that I just woke up like you know what? I

[00:38:17.46] spk_0:
got nothing. I got nothing here. Megan, I have a meeting. 11. Do me a favor and cancel it. I’m going to the gym. Like what? It was like I don’t need a day. So I went to the gym. I did like

[00:38:20.47] spk_3:
she knows you by now.

[00:38:21.22] spk_6:
Yeah, I did like 10,000

[00:38:36.45] spk_0:
meter swim. Ah, I did like half an hour on the rower. You know, I did the bike, and I just That was what I could do right. And so, as an employer, you need to understand that there are gonna be times when you’re, you know, you call the mental health days in a mental health day. Well, that’s real, you know, and a Zen employer, you have to be flexible enough to allow for that. And the

[00:38:43.91] spk_6:
nice thing is, is

[00:38:52.07] spk_0:
that when you do allow for it, you’ll find that your employees not, um they don’t take advantage of you. They might take advantage of the health day every once in a while and

[00:38:55.30] spk_6:
say no, any today I’ll take a day.

[00:39:05.97] spk_0:
But when you give that more studies and more studies have shown that when you give them the ability to make their own choices right, they’re not gonna screw you more often than not, the non chemistry

[00:39:08.44] spk_3:
something you alluded to is, you know, like the typical career path they your neuro diverse, may not necessarily want to be promoted,

[00:39:21.62] spk_0:
right. There are people who are in positions that they’re really great and they want to stay there. Um, you

[00:39:22.06] spk_6:
know, it’s something else

[00:39:32.00] spk_0:
to consider for millions of years of evolution. Millions years, we hunted, and that’s how we got our food and we would run after a saber toothed tiger. And if we killed it, we’d eat. And if we didn’t kill it, we wouldn’t eat. We’d starve. And so we became very adept at short bursts of energy and short bursts of focus Right where we kill this tiger. And then

[00:39:47.20] spk_6:
we have, like, three or four days just,

[00:39:48.13] spk_0:
you know, eat. And she’ll whenever and there’s the food started to disappear Go battle. It would hunt

[00:39:53.42] spk_6:
again. Then we discovered

[00:39:57.29] spk_0:
agriculture. But 1100 years ago, and we just get the hell

[00:39:58.12] spk_6:
out 100

[00:40:11.87] spk_0:
years in the history of our existence is, you know, less than the width of a period on a full novel. And so, if you have to imagine, if you’re thinking about, um why why are we just gonna go?

[00:40:13.48] spk_6:
Why are we discovering it now? Are we seeing so

[00:41:10.30] spk_0:
much more of it now? Because you know what to look for. It’s always been there looking Einstein. Divinci Minutes, people, classic eighties. You no question about it. Um what? We understand what to look for now, you know, And in the course of human history were so far, are so so just at the nano pubescent era. We haven’t even started. You know, if you go down the line of of human growth, we’re just now barely beginning to crack the surfaces to what’s out there. And so, you know, if you well, we’ve had a 100 years of farming that’s nothing. In the in the history of the grand scheme of time, there’s nothing. And so you’re taking millions of people who grew their entire lineage, You know, that the entire human race was based on going out hunting, farming, you know, hunting. Then all of

[00:41:11.11] spk_6:
a sudden, the last second you change. Okay, Don’t hunt. Now sit down and farm.

[00:41:39.01] spk_0:
Well, you know, we’re gonna get fat, and we have a lot of energy that we need to dispel some other way, and we’re not going to able to do that. Lookit, lookit, history. Look. Att. The Romans look at the Europe in the 12th century, the only people who are fat with the kings because everyone else was working and they were out there. No hunting and gathering of it, you know, And then over time, what we’re seeing now is, you know, it’s so much the

[00:41:42.59] spk_6:
other thing was also Is

[00:42:00.28] spk_0:
that the rise of of bad for us? Food flat. But a word is playoff proliferating. Um, you don’t see that in ah, in countries that have less fast food options.

[00:42:01.44] spk_3:
Although we’ve us has done a good

[00:42:25.06] spk_0:
job, We explored everywhere. Yeah, bad food. You see all the stomachs growing in other countries as well. But, you know, we didn’t have that 1000 years ago. Either we had healthy. You know, I joked that I tried to eat food that if my grandmother back when she was, like, six years old in 1980 whatever. If she wouldn’t have recognized his food, I’ll try not to eat it right. You know, she look a cheating with, you know, but she understands the potato is she understands what? You know Broccoli. Is

[00:42:34.15] spk_3:
that it? Michael Pollan. Did you steal that from? You have only eat foods that your grandmother would recognize.

[00:42:42.50] spk_6:
I know where I got it. Had at first been saying that for years that the two things I say is that and then shop the edges of the supermarket because the outside of the supermarkets world healthy food is the crab is on the inside, right?

[00:42:48.41] spk_2:
What? We still have. All

[00:42:49.25] spk_3:
right. Let me take our last break.

[00:42:50.64] spk_6:
Well, I’m faster than normal. That’s why. That’s why. Good. That’s what happened.

[00:42:57.96] spk_3:
Um, I’m worried. About what? I should let you go. I mean, I

[00:42:59.60] spk_6:
know I’m just one of them entering tax. I

[00:43:57.80] spk_3:
don’t want you to leave. All right. Time last break turned to communications. Did you ever wonder how some nonprofits always get mentioned in the news and it pisses you off? It’s because they well, you could You could use Harrow. You could actually lose Harrow. Help a reporter out. You could also, uh, try to build long term relationships with the journalists that matter to you and turn to can help you do that as well. Their former journalists, including from the Chronicle of Philanthropy, our community. So to build a long term sort of sustaining relationships so that you get great coverage when it matters. When the news breaks and you want to be quoted, you’re the expert. That’s the kind of relationship you want there, a turn hyphen to dot CEO, and we do have butt loads. More time for new road diversity. And Peter Shankman, uh, I’m gonna throw it to you for, you know what else? What else would you like? Nonprofit organizations to know about neural diversity. We certainly talked About what? What the community brings

[00:44:06.90] spk_6:
one of the cool things look

[00:44:15.87] spk_0:
spring about. No diversity, I think, is that we tend to come up with ridiculously brilliant ideas that when you

[00:44:17.37] spk_2:
hear them

[00:44:27.09] spk_0:
for the first time, you might not think of as brilliant. You might think that, you know, we just told you that we’re a spotted owl. Um, but that’s the fun of it is our brains work a little differently and we think, sort of not outside the box. You think outside the park really were in an entirely different world? And one of things that I’ve seen happen many a time is You know, I remember this used to happen all the time with my ex

[00:44:41.48] spk_6:
wife. I I had this great idea, and

[00:44:45.49] spk_0:
you get Okay, here we go, you know, and

[00:44:46.28] spk_6:
she wasn’t angry. Just like Okay, where is this

[00:44:49.66] spk_0:
gonna wind us up? You know, we’re gonna be in Thailand by tomorrow. How do you know what’s gonna happen? Ideas before?

[00:44:53.92] spk_6:
Yeah, and and but the thing is Is

[00:45:21.78] spk_0:
that you know, that concept of great ideas led me to start Harrow, right? It it led me to start a podcast. Everything I’ve done has come from that, because when you’re when you’re near a diverse, you’re so used to getting t getting those weird looking people that you don’t give a shit anymore. And so you have 99.9% of brilliant ideas in this world have never actually been implemented because people are afraid of whether it was gonna pay. It

[00:45:23.19] spk_6:
kills me, right? Like the highway is littered

[00:45:38.16] spk_0:
with brilliant ideas that never saw the light of day because someone was afraid of what people might think When you’re a DHD or no divers, you spent your life with people looking at you and mocking you and talking. So you

[00:45:40.04] spk_6:
just don’t give a shit anymore, so I’ll get out there. Hey, here’s a crazy It may work. It may not have had just many failures have had successes,

[00:45:45.28] spk_0:
but when I’ve had the successes, they’ve really blown up.

[00:46:07.36] spk_3:
Okay, great creativity. And, uh, there’s there’s a very good article that I read preparing from Harvard Business Review it Zo listeners, you might be interested. It’s a May June 2017 issue of Harvard Business Review on I Think It’s called Neuro Diversity. And then there’s you also find Peter Shankman and interviewed by a psychology today. You were profiled,

[00:46:12.75] spk_6:
you know. But that’s the funny thing. Is some problem Mexico today and then I’m also

[00:46:18.98] spk_0:
profiled by, um, by traffic magazine. Right.

[00:46:21.01] spk_6:
And if you look at me, you know damn well that I’m not profit by Travel magazine for like winning traffic runs right? I’m profile, but Athlete magazine is

[00:46:32.88] spk_0:
one of the funniest people in traffic. Because I wrote it, I created a video that was based on the conversations I had with an ex girlfriend who could never understand why I could never go out and have brunch or stay out late on a Saturday night is always had an early ride or late, you know, long run or whatever, and I made

[00:46:44.49] spk_6:
this video and every single traffic related to it and everything. Oh my God, I always think that stuff well, I create

[00:46:50.55] spk_0:
the video because I just Why not? When you’re near a diverse, that’s why not is your favorite word, you know,

[00:46:55.73] spk_6:
why not Let’s try it. Let’s see what happens. You got me in trouble a lot. Growing up,

[00:47:09.60] spk_0:
I, um Yeah, I will never forget. Um, my parents coming home and finding that I had shaved. They’re 11 year old tabby cats. And

[00:47:22.23] spk_6:
what the hell Why would you do I want to see what happened. Nothing good happens when you shave the cat. I want to see what happened. Head to toe ball. That cat was not because I used a trimmer into the cat was drugs because, you know, the feels good. He feels he felt hated

[00:47:35.18] spk_0:
my mom, and that was not very happy. But, you know, growing up once I got what I grew up, everything became the concept of trying something to see what happens is actually very, very beneficial.

[00:47:39.38] spk_3:
Why not? I mean, definitely not profit. I mean, any organization we’re talking about profit could certainly benefit from some thinking around the

[00:47:46.34] spk_0:
question about it. You know

[00:47:47.05] spk_6:
what’s the worst could happen. It fails. Try something else.

[00:47:48.87] spk_2:
Yeah, way. We’ve talked about that on the show.

[00:47:50.60] spk_3:
We’ve had people talk about testing, testing for giving Tuesday, testing your fundraising messages, testing your email, testing other communication channels. That’s that’s what we’re talking about. Just that the

[00:48:03.45] spk_2:
ideas may be a little further out.

[00:48:33.25] spk_0:
The worst fear for me is not failure. It’s it’s not having not having tried something. I When I first got my first Alexa, I had this great idea. My kid was like, I think three years old, I had this great idea about, um I wanted to build an app that would wouldn’t allow election work unless it heard the word, please. So I didn’t want my daughter thinking that she could just talk to machines without in loser manner and and so

[00:48:34.59] spk_6:
I I should do this one day. I did. Really? Yeah. Uh, someone did it, and it exists now it’s a damn apples. Piss me off. You know, it’s like, Why do you Why

[00:48:49.62] spk_0:
d the a The only, um, the biggest risk it’s been said is not taking one, you know, And that’s it. So

[00:48:50.72] spk_2:
sure, of course. You know, you see that

[00:48:52.16] spk_3:
on social media all the time. I spent most of my time when I’m in social on Twitter, and, uh, you know,

[00:48:57.51] spk_6:
there’s over died years ago. There’s always, uh oh, yeah,

[00:48:59.90] spk_0:
way. We all know why it’s still alive. It’s only there’s only one reason why it’s alive in his orange and it should be dead. Twitter should have died about four years ago. There’s literally sze I find such a little value in and I’m still on it and you have to be. But I find such little value in it now. Such a bummer. It was It was it was phenomenal. I loved Twitter back in Lego eight and I

[00:49:20.10] spk_3:
were on the show. You might have said you don’t know if Twitter will survive, but But the

[00:49:23.75] spk_6:
concept, the concept, right? Momo? Well, not not constant tweeting the continent mobile messaging the concept of short, short burst communication. And I was right. And that is everything. That every single text,

[00:49:34.74] spk_0:
every single email, every single thing that we get is short bursts, right? And and for the

[00:49:39.68] spk_6:
HD, that’s perfect. It’s quick, little Oh, let’s look Okay. So

[00:49:42.58] spk_0:
let’s move on, you know, But the premise of tradition I’m starting to have your say something.

[00:49:51.32] spk_3:
Okay? That’s all these all these, uh, advice is, you know, the trite little Yeah. Never don’t be afraid to fail that the biggest failure is never trying, you know, But but But, I

[00:49:59.50] spk_2:
mean, there’s truth in

[00:50:00.15] spk_3:
it, but it seems trite.

[00:50:06.16] spk_6:
Well, everything seems t social media fucked everything up because nobody but nobody.

[00:50:06.66] spk_2:
You know, people are

[00:50:07.21] spk_6:
the last thing on. That’s right. I’m still see things. Yes. Thank you for sending 10,000 person conferences and telling them Be transparent. Be relevant.

[00:50:14.14] spk_0:
Be be, be brief. Being really

[00:50:17.05] spk_6:
Well, it’s so obvious. Then why aren’t you doing it? Test it. Try it.

[00:50:24.73] spk_3:
All right. Very true. We wrapped up. Sam, is that, uh we

[00:50:28.71] spk_2:
got five minutes off. Never gonna add. Oh, my gosh. Five minutes left. Oh,

[00:50:29.84] spk_3:
we started five minutes late. Yes, that’s what I’m looking at. The clock on Sam’s. All right, Um,

[00:50:36.43] spk_2:
tell me. Tell me more.

[00:50:55.71] spk_0:
Um, I could tell you that I One of the things that I find is is very, uh, everyone in whose no divers tends to have in common. We’re either incredibly productive or we do nothing at all again. No middle ground.

[00:50:56.87] spk_3:
This was the nomis day. All

[00:51:44.41] spk_0:
right? So I will I will. So, for instance, I have wanted I have done to Iron Man in my life to Ironman triathlons, and I want to do 1/3 1 and I for years I would say, OK, this is a year, and I haven’t had the impetus kick in the pants to sign up and and and pay the money. Paid almost $1000 to register for that. And something fell in my lap this year where it looks like I’ll be doing my 3rd 1 in in October. If you wait for the right moment, you’re never gonna have it. Yeah, right. And so again, that’s why I tend to say yes to almost everything in the world. Um, figure how to do it later, right? So I know that if I do my third eye, man, I’m gonna have to Basically from, like, mid February to October. I am going to be in that zone where I’m gonna be doubling my workouts. I’m gonna be, You know, my sleep will

[00:51:50.55] spk_6:
suffer. Not

[00:52:08.85] spk_0:
tremendously. I’ll still get enough sleep. But, you know, after putting my kid down eight o’clock, I might not go right to bed. I might have to do another two hours on bike. Isn’t like that. And, um but you I guess the point. Grantmakers What I find is that you make time for what’s important, right?

[00:52:12.33] spk_6:
Because of the end of the day, I’m still I’m still having the same 24 hours. That’s not gonna change. I’m not gonna find the time. Right. So you have to make it and you make it expensive. Something else.

[00:52:19.96] spk_0:
So you figure out what? What’s not important? A good friend of mine

[00:52:23.48] spk_6:
I understand so early. It’s amazing. You’re I wish I could do that like you can. No, I don’t know. I don’t know. You can. How do I do that? Well, okay, so I see that

[00:52:31.98] spk_0:
you’re liking, um shit on Facebook at 2 a.m. Maybe. You know, don’t do

[00:52:37.87] spk_6:
that. You know, it’s like we all have the same amount of time, and and how we utilize it is what

[00:52:43.43] spk_3:
matters. All right, out of respect for you, because the hour is really it’s an artificial. It’s an artificial

[00:52:47.90] spk_6:
country. Exactly. That exists

[00:52:50.94] spk_3:
to an hour, so we’re gonna leave it there. I really wanna thank you

[00:52:52.90] spk_6:
for your time. Thank you. Come back another five years.

[00:52:57.18] spk_3:
Thanks a lot for sure. You’ll find him at Peter Shankman. Peter

[00:53:03.38] spk_0:
Shankman. Peter Shankman. another Socials and peter shankman dot com and apparition shankman dot com.

[00:53:07.84] spk_3:
And at Peter Shankman, you also see he’s now a futurist in residence. We get just talk about

[00:53:11.53] spk_0:
epic epic marketing consultants, a great company in a Delaware. They hired me as their futurists futurist in residence. Yeah, so I come up with ideas. I I write white papers on what I think is gonna happen. Then we see if I’m

[00:53:24.41] spk_3:
right. Thank you very much. Next week, it’s our Valentine’s Day show relationship. Fundraising naturally with Adrian Sergeant. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:53:40.40] spk_2:
cooking meth in Software Denali Fund

[00:53:58.13] spk_3:
Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A

[00:54:38.88] spk_2:
creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York We’re a pre recorded today, so there wasn’t live. Listen, love podcast pleasantries. But of course, you know the sentiment goes out. Those sentiments always go out. You with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for March 15, 2019: The War For Fundraising Talent

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Jason Lewis: The War For Fundraising Talent
Rapid staff turnover and high donor attrition are merely symptoms of a larger problem: You’re not treating your fundraisers right. So says Jason Lewis. He’s author of the book, “The War for Fundraising Talent.”




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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on the aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Locke Socialism If you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show. The war for fund-raising talent, rapid staff turnover and high donor attrition are merely symptoms of a larger problem. You’re not treating your fundraisers right? So says Jason Lewis. He’s author of the book The War for Fund-raising Talent on Tony’s Take two nineteen and TC. We’re sponsored by pursuant Full Service fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuing by Wagner. CPS Guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner’s cps dot com By Tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four, four nine nine nine I can welcome Jason Lewis to the show. It’s a pleasure to do that. He’s the author of the book The War for Fund-raising Talent and How Small Shops Can Win. He’s an A F P master trainer and contrary invoice on effective fund-raising practices, hiring decisions and donor behavior. He’s at the generous life and at louis fund-raising dot com. Welcome to the show. Jason Lewis. Hi, Tony. They’re glad to be here and looking forward to our conversation this evening. Absolutely cool. Where you calling from? I am in. Ah, Salisbury, Maryland. I’ve got a client out here on the eastern Shore, and so I’m sitting in the hotel lobby of of the of the hotel. Um, yeah, they got They have happy hour there, free drinks in the lobby. While you’re mean, you know, this is Can you imbibe while you converse? No. It’s pretty quiet here this evening. I think there’s a could only be one one other gentlemen in here and he doesn’t know happy are going on here. Okay, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, because I have a strict. I have a straight up vodka in front of me, so Yeah. Yeah, I was Yeah, there’s No, I don’t I don’t even know there’s a bar over there, but I don’t think part. Okay, okay. You need to get clients in bigger. Used to get clients in bigger cities with fancier hotels. Yeah, right exactly. Way. Take the clients that are right for us. Where are you based? Um, Tony. I live in York, Pennsylvania, which is about sixty five miles north of Baltimore. And, um, I travel in and out of Baltimore for most of my client work. We’ve lived in York for almost ten years. We moved up there after I was a major gifts officer in Washington. And we want to buy our first home and suburban Maryland right outside of the district’s not not terribly, but not not not terribly good for, ah, buying your first home. So we moved to York, and we’ve been there ten years. We’re all happy there. All right, all right. And you’ve got, like, twenty years in and fund-raising, right? Yeah, I am. Okay. I’m like I’m like a lot of people that have I sort of consider myself one of maybe one of the last, um of this generation that have sort of come in through the back door. You know, my wife and I were after college. We were looking for something to do together. And we went to work for a non profit organization. And I happened upon fund-raising in the process. But yes, I’m sort of one of those typical fundraisers who came through the back door. Not very deliberately, right? Like me, I came through law, hated practising our way, engineered myself too much happier existence. What’s this? What’s this war that we’re waging for fund-raising talent? Give it. Give it. Give a given intro to this idea of war. It’s pretty inside of the incendiary little provocative. Yeah, I was. I was. I was pretty deliberate with that title. I, um some people have said that some people have said that I was Teo combative with that title, but it certainly got the attention that I was looking for. Um, you know, tell Tony to say that the the the war that I’m actually talking about in the book is not a, uh It’s not the typical talent war in the sense of who gets the hyre Tony or who gets the hyre. Jason, um, I’m actually talking about more of an ideological war, essentially two competing mindset, Um, that I think are one of them. Sort of overwhelmingly president in the nonprofit sector. And then the other being the one that I think is the, um I certainly have found to be the one that wins, um, these two competing mind sets the one is, is the organization that assumes that there fund-raising challenges. Ey’re always resolved by this constant accumulation of new donors. And presumably the new donor comes with lesser expectation on the Delaware that they are already have. Yes, and then? And then the, uh, then I think you know is you look at the organizations that are winning it’s it’s organizations that get to get beyond the point of constant accumulation of of new donors. And they realize that the donors that they already have or are the way that the way all this works and being able to balance their expectations of the donor. But what expectations they have with the expectations that you would have of them so allows, allowing those expectations toe oppcoll sort of grow over time. Eyes actually, how that works stand. You say the war for fund-raising talent will be won by those who can combine a highest standard of professionalism with an organizational culture that thrives on meaningful engagement and meaningful engagement. Talking about engagement with the professional fundraiser, right? Yeah. I mean, you’ve got it. You’ve got it? Yeah, I mean, you’ve got to create a culture where that Aye, that development officer can thrive where they want to show up for work on Monday morning and enjoy their work. Yes. And then you’ve got to create a you’ve got to create a culture where that development officer can can be expected. Not that where that development officer can be expected to, you know, call on your existing donors and occasionally knock on their doors or meet them for coffee or what have you. And so instead of, instead of avoiding that meaningful engagement, they they’ve actually got to see that as an essential part of it. Yeah, on DH, we’ll have time to work our way into this, of course, because we have the hour together. But, you know, I pick something from the middle, the book. You know, I felt like there was a central thesis Who’s going toe? Who’s going to win this? It’s not really a culture war, but it was going to win. This war of ah, of ideas is really what we’re talking about. Um, you’ve got you. So as we back away from a little bit, you’ve got some concern about drifting away from our mission and the impact that that can have on fundraisers. A CZ. They’re pursuing major donors. And you call it Mission Drift. I think I would even call it Mission Hijack. What’s your What’s your concern there? Well, So, Tony, when you say that mention mission, let me clarify what you mean when you say mission hijack the meaning, the donor that wealthy that concentration of attention to wealthy donors can can, if in organizations not careful, allow it to embark on programs that aren’t court to its mission Because those where the wealthy donors interests lie. And in fact, I got it. I got to take our first break, Jason. So is that that makes him you know, where you know where headed now? Yeah. Yeah. I don’t want to make sure that when I responded to the question that I answered it, OK? I mean, I’m going with that, Okay? Exactly. I’m calling it Mission Hijack. You don’t You’re not that extreme. Surprisingly, because you’re the you’re the incendiary guy, but you backed off a little bit. Okay? All right. Allow me to take take this first break. Pursuing their newest free book is the Art of First Impressions. It’s all about Donorsearch acquisition. To attract new donors, you need to make a smashing first impression. Now, Jason and I are talking about some things that will hopefully help you not have to acquire new donors year after year after year. But to the extent you do have to be involved in donorsearch precision, uh, this e book will help you guiding principles for acquisition. Howto identify your unique value. It’s got some creative tips, and you will find it on the listener landing page. Tony Dahna. I’m a slash pursuant. Remember that capital P for, please. All right, let’s go back to the war for fund-raising talent. Okay, Jason s o What’s your concern around this? What you call Drift, I call hijack? Yeah, I think I think in the nonprofit sector there there is a lot of fear. There is a lot of fear that if we build relationships with major donors, wealthy people, that they will, you know, cause us or persuade us or require of us, hijack our mission, and they’ll expect us to, um, you know, go in the direction that we don’t want to go. But, um, what the argument that I’m making is that any relationship that is imbalanced, any any relationship? You know, Tony, you and I, you know, we develop a friendship and say, for example, you know, I’m on your podcast. You’re on mine and if one of us, uh, if one of us takes that relationship in a direction where the X where my where my expectations of you and your expectations of me or out of balance one of us is going to use words like drift or Ah, hi, Judge. I know he hijacked the relationship, and he took in the direction I didn’t want to go. And I think that’s actually what’s happening more often than not in the non-profit spaces. We don’t know how to. I don’t think it’s the donors that are out there hijacking our missions. I think it’s the organizations that our, uh, have have, quite frankly not learned how to have a balanced peer-to-peer relationship with their major donors. Um the fear the fear of mission drift or mission hijack actually can be very quickly resolved by simply having a appear relationship with a donor where the donor ask you to do something you don’t want to do. You have to have the confidence to tell him or no. And we haven’t gotten not enough of us who are out there trying to raise significant funds, especially in the smaller shops. Um, haven’t developed that confident Yeah, yeah. And I You know, I think that feeds back to the scarcity, the scarcity mindset, which, in this case, you know, I always called him scarcity Mindset. You go, You take the more incendiary and you call the scarcity lie. You know, it’s the I think what you’re describing feeds from that’s scarcity lie that we don’t have enough donors, so we can’t upset any of them. Oh, yeah. I mean, we we, um non-profit organizations are so shoot, we’re so you know, those of us who choose to start a prop up a non profit organization and we want to change the world were very oriented towards the people that we serve not poor, not towards the people that enable us to do the serving. And so we’re very comfortable, you know, spending time with children or patients or whomever, you know, homeless people that need to be bed or whatever does organizations doing. But we haven’t developed a confident sitting across the table from somebody who in many cases, has, you know, more wealth. And a lot of us will ever know if our monetary well, thousands and thousands of times over. Yeah, yeah, but But until you develop that that confidence to sit across the table from that individual and not allow his his or her monetary wealth, and similarly not allow your you know your mission in vision of the organization, neither one of them to sort of overpower, overwhelmed the relationship and say, Okay, we’re going to meet here. We’ll have a mutually satisfying relationship. Um, you know the same words I mean, I think I think it’s terrible that some of the language that we use nowadays to describe what we think donors air out there capable or willing or desirous of doing it’s the same language that it It’s just it’s just the language that we would attribute to any dysfunctional relationship. Um, but dysfunctional relationships generally here to a street. Yeah, we oftentimes get into a pattern of behavior where we’re enabling and allowing that person to behave that way. And we’ve got to change that. But But But my point is that that that fear of making that change that you’re now describing comes from the scarcity lie that we haven’t got enough donors, so we can’t piss any of them off. I’m well, yeah, absolutely. Well, Tony. So what, They’re Yeah, they’re there. If you never If you got one hundred names on a mail, you know we’ve got these databases. We love our databases. So if you’ve got a hundred names in your database, um, most of us have been a multiple upon multiples. Mohr. And you never sit across the table from them. You never learned that. They are that they’re not broke. You never learned that they’re not that the three sources aren’t scared, right? Well, that you have you. Yeah, Yeah, that’s on. That goes that goes to your concern about too much arm’s length fund-raising which we’re goingto get, we’ll get to, uh, yeah. Okay. I just s Oh, yeah. Yes, of course. You want the keys? There was a lot of wasted syllables. Uh, What? Yes, of course you want it. You do want a balanced relationship, and you want to relieve yourself, Shed yourself of the the scarcity lie that there isn’t enough to go around. You don’t have enough to survive so that everyone needs to. Every donor needs to be placated and never ruffled or troubled or or disagreed with that. Because Because then you’ll always then you then you are at risk for the the mission hijack or the mission drift that that that we’re talking about. And and that’ll be particularly unsatisfying. Going back to your thesis about fund-raising. That’ll be unsatisfying to your front. Your professional fundraisers. Because they’re always coming at this from an obsequious position. Hoo! That’s a big word. Explain that we’re that I don’t know. I don’t know what the hell it means I saw it. It was word of the day a couple days ago. No, it’s Ah, it’s that you’re It’s a fawning, ah, forming attentiveness, your falling over yourself to be kind and and, you know, attentive and complimentary of the person that’s an obsequious itt’s pajarito. It’s bad. I know. You know what? I’m sorry. I’m just good to finding everywhere. Yeah, it’s a majority on You don’t want your fundraisers thinking that way. I don’t think I tend to think, and I didn’t I didn’t hammer this message too heavy in the book, but I think you’ve got a lot of non-profit organizations out there that are being run by people that, quite frankly, have control issues. Um, and you know, if I’m in a room with these folks, often times I’m I’m I’m pretty forward about saying, you know, we’ve got a lot of non profit organizations that are being run by control freaks, and they don’t know how to relinquish that sense of control. That oftentimes is not unreasonable. You know, if the donor wants to paint the wall pink and you want to paint it purple, you know, we need to ask ourselves if if we were, If if our mission statement really was all about whether or not we painted the wall pink or purple or if it had, you know, if what we’re aiming for was much more significant than that. And, um so I don’t think we’re I think you’ve got more organizations out there that are being run by people who want control, not by people who want to change the world. And And that’s what you know. I don’t know, impact control a whole lot in the book, but that’s essentially what I think it comes down to is you’ve got a lot of control freaks out there that Yeah, you know, and the possibility that a donor will come in and say, Hey, let’s do it this way Really freaks out a person who wants to maintain control. Well, don’t hold out hope. Don’t hold back on non-profit radio Listeners weaken. They can take straight talk. So you can if you if you didn’t want to go into it in the book. Maybe that’s your second book. I’m sure that’ll be your your follow-up book about control and maybe even sometimes founder. You know that Founder, founder misery. But any case now, probably radio listeners could take you straight. In fact, you devote a whole you’ve got a whole chapter. We don’t have a lot of you don’t. I don’t feel like we’re going to have time to go into this, but because people just have to buy the book. I mean, the book is the war for fund-raising talent. It’s on Amazon. You’ve just got to get it. But you have a whole You have a hole. You agree with that? Are you agree with that premise? You gotta buy the book. You know, You know, you have no trouble with that, do you? Okay. Yeah. Chapter hounded by charities. You know, where you talk about cheap and low risk and shallow, you know that? That type of fund-raising and I think it. I think it’s fed by the scarcity mindset. You know, we got to go after every nickel. So So with that sort of, with that chapter in mind, but that hounded, you know, and that sort of transactional, you know that transactional fund-raising? Well, yeah, yeah. So if I was rewriting the book and I was and you were coaching the tony on how to write this thing. And I was talking to an audience you’re doing Now forget about it. Forget about it. You may as well do a comic book. Sorry to the comic book collectors who think there’s a graphic novels and they’re not graphic novels. If it’s got pictures, it’s a comic book. I don’t care if it’s hard covered with four hundred pages. That’s a comic book. Okay, get that graphic novel nonsense out of your head. Okay, I’m sorry. Like minor digression. In any case, your book is doomed if you got me coaching you. But if you want to follow that hypothetical go ahead. Yeah, I mean, if if you if I was looking at that particular chapter, I tell the Olive cooked the story of olive cook in the United Kingdom who jumped off of a bridge and jump stur during tragic death. And she was probably more than likely she was depressed and had other mental illness. Uh uh, that that precipitated that. But the press decided that it was it was direct mail to blame. And and and I don’t and I don’t think that for a minute that the direct mail is necessarily what what caused this woman Tio to commit suicide. But what I do think is that I don’t think that direct mail. I don’t think that the charities that were, um, overwhelming her mailbox contributed to a meaningful life for this woman. Um, I think they could have been. I think they and you know, the I think the charitable organizations that were hounding her as the as the press said, I could have recognize that this woman was reaching out to charitable organizations and contributing to them and trying to enhance our quality of life. But instead we have turned it into we have turned a lot of fund-raising practice into a machine, and all it cook just becomes sort of the ultimate miserable example of sort of what happens when the machine just goes, You know, out of control. I wantto way I want it back a little bit for listeners. So Olive Cook story, I think. Twenty, fourteen. Jason twenty, twenty, fifteen. The woman was getting lots of emails. All stations. Fifty seven fifty, sixty a day or something or forty fifty letters a day. And she was a middle income woman, and she was overwhelmed and she killed herself. She jumped off a cliff into a gorge. She lived in the UK and like like Jason just said, the press decided that that was because she was overwhelmed by charitable solicitations. And, you know, that’s certainly open to a lot of AA AA lot of argument. But in case I just want to backfill the story, so But it’s so Okay, so with that now we understand that I want to get to My question is, um, do we need to do what? What? What would it look like if if a non-profit that was doing a lot of this transactional, as you say, You know, shallow fund-raising. Andi. Just about all non-profits do. But suppose they recognize that their they, like they can never convert, or they hardly ever convert these transactional ten, fifteen, twenty, maybe even fifty hundred dollar gift. They never convert them to more to major gif ts or to what you call, you know, significant gifts. But even just getting two major gifts. What if they abandoned that transactional practice? Suppose they just stopped and devoted, though that time and money two major gift fund-raising. What do you think that what you think that would fly in an organization? What do you think that would look like? I mean, is it feasible to just abandon the transactional and put those resources toward Major E-giving? Hyre? I don’t I don’t know if that’s the question, whether or not it’s feasible. There’s plenty of organizations that have done the analysis, Tony, that says that if they removed thirty percent of their file, it wouldn’t. It wouldn’t change the outcome if if if they just I’ve got a friend of mine who’s in direct response and he’s done. He’s done the analysis on these huge databases, and there’s there’s a segment, you know? What portion of what segment of your database are you mailing to that if you just stopped feeling? Um and I think it’s a very valid question, But any enterprise in a non-profit or for-profit enterprise, fellows to them now. Jason, Jake, Jason, we need you to call back. I’m going to take a break. Jason, I hope you can hear me. Jason, give you give a call back, please call the studio back. Okay? Okay. Okay. Thank you. Lost him. But we’ll get him right back. It happens this is, uh, you know, it’s live, although it’s it’s not live were pre recorded, but we don’t have it. That’s what you know that you What you know is that we don’t edit, so we’ll take a break break cracking like I’m fourteen. Ah, and we’ll take that break for Wagner. CPS, so enough. Yeah, I’ve done the archive Webinar. Okay, we’re done with that now. Well, you see, Piela they’re accountants, right? Do you need help with your nine ninety this year? You’re looking for a new audit firm. Patronise a non-profit radio sponsors. How about that? Look at them. Check out Wagner’s site and then call them up. Talk to that partner. Yeah, Huge tomb. Alright. See if they can help you out. I’d be grateful they’d be grateful. Weinger cps dot com Now let’s go into Tony’s. Take two. And we’ll just do this a little bit early because we had that little glitch on DH Tony Tony steak too. So now this time and I’m at non-profit rate, I am non-profit radio are ah non-profit radio is our show. I’m not the non-profit technology conference and T C nineteen ninety sea right now. Not it’s not now for me, it’s going to be then for me. I’ll be there then. But it’s now for you. When that comes, then, Because when I’m there, then you’ll be here. Now, here with me. But not here with me. There. You’ll be here with me. Then you might be here then. But you wouldn’t be with me unless you happen to be in booths five o eight and five. Ten at the convention center in Portland, Oregon. So if you’re not there, then there. Then you wouldn’t be with me then. But you can be with me now. Here, when I’m here with you. Right here. I’ll be here then for you now, like I always am. Right? And I want to thank ActBlue for sponsoring Non-profit radio at NTC. They’re doing it now and then here and there. And you know them for their three billion dollars in small donations, get to know them for small dollar donations for your organization. And you could check out our non-profit, your sponsor at tony dot M a slash actblue. And that is Tony’s. Take two. Now let’s get back to Jason Lewis. The war for Fund-raising talent. Jason, you back with us. I am sorry we lost. Okay? Yeah, Yeah, it happens. I don’t know that the hotel lobby have some commotion like that Happy hour start or something? I don’t know, but I’m made sure to turn on something. Snapped some part of my phone to make sure that maybe that doesn’t happen again. Okay. Okay. Well, you would know if you would know if Happy hour started around you, wouldn’t you? Oh, yeah. That has guarded. It is still the same. Lonely. I don’t know how many of your listeners have ever been to Salisbury, Maryland, but it’s a quiet little town that’s about fifty miles from the promotion city, Maryland, and not a lot happening. And OK, down. I can tell you that the tourism from Ocean City has not bled over, but it also does not. But I do know people make money here. There are people here who make money over there. So, uh, there might be a few fundraisers who come through here on occasion. Here. There. When? When you’re there with them here, then? Yeah. If you’re in real estate. Not now. If you live in Salisbury, Maryland, chances are you’re in real estate. You know, oceanfront, real estate, condos, rental units, that sort of stuff. So yeah, okay, But we were talking about that. That transactional fund-raising what that would look like if you abandon that, and what you were starting to get to is a CZ. You said, You know, if you took a third of your file perhaps and stopped soliciting them by by these transactional methods, there wouldn’t be much loss or any loss. And it might actually be a gain if you move those resources into the more high dollar major e-giving. And I’ve seen something like that from a guest ahead on recently. Curtis Bingham. When I saw him live, there was there was a segment of small dollar transactions that that that’s a very large company. Hundreds of thousands of customers. So they had a large data file. Was it was able to purge and and actually profited by reallocating resources away from. So I’m just wondering, you know what? That what that would look like. I mean, it would be It would be radical, I think, for a lot of organizations. Well, if you get if you get if you sort of loop back to what I’m talking about about their sense of control. You know, arm’s length fund-raising cheap, shallow, arms linked fund-raising is not about raising significant dollars. It’s about maintaining a sense of control. And it is avoiding that fear that you started with, you know, in a few minutes ago, The idea that if we let the stone or come into we let too many donors get too close to the mission, they might tell us to do something we don’t want to do. So, um, I think there’s I think, if we really got, I think if we really wrestled with, some of us would find out that the reason that we maintain these cheap, shallow relationships with our donors has less to do with whether or not they can actually give us more money or not. But because it maintains that sense of control. If we took a third, it’s just hypothetically, just just sort of cat. You know, put your put your put any organizations donors in the three categories. There’s the third that they’re not going to make any money on, and they’re better off not mailing to them at all. There’s the third that on the other end of the spectrum that there they don’t have to mail, too, and they get very significant gifts from and and the margins on what they invest in. Those donors are huge. I think there’s plenty of opportunity and enough of our organization’s today with this metal category of donors that says if we’ll invest, if if will invest in more meaningful relationships with these people, weaken. Therefore, raise our expectation of these individuals and expect them to give Mohr more meaningful contributions. Yeah, that’s where I think it’s that middle category of donor um, that, I think is both the opportunity. But it is also the the change agent, if you will, that would revolutionise the way a lot of organizations raised funds, because if all of a sudden I’ve got a middle, if I’ve got what we would tip, typically call sort of a mid level donor if all of a sudden I’m engaging them in more meaningful ways, they’re not writing these extraordinary gifts. You know, they’re not writing huge six and seven figure gifts, but they’re writing checks that, you know when you bunch them together with, You know, twenty five other people. It’s a pretty big deal. But tow have those people now engaged in the organization in a way that’s more meaningful is a different type of organization. Let’s eso let’s talk about how to treat some of those that middle third that you describe. You say you say we gonna learn a lot from e harmony. Yeah. Okay. Tell us so and you know it. Right? And, Tony, I’m really grateful that you read the book because, well, what the hell? Oh, my God. I do. Most people not what? How would I have a conversation with an author if I don’t read it? But I know I totally You know what, Tony? I think I’ve done. I don’t know, probably a dozen of these interviews. And nobody’s mentioned the harmony. So a man? Yeah. I mean, it’s it caught my eye because my wife and I are having trouble. So I I’ve been checking out myself, so I have some personal interest in it as well. So, yes, that all its not all altruistic. Non-profit hyre fine. Well, were not. I’m not in the harmony. Let’s just leave it at that. Let’s not overstate the brilliant Tony, the brilliant behind our harmony. What about them? A Harmony is has has has an algorithm, has a model. They got a business model that says we don’t want people using our system that want cheap, shallow, one night stand relationships with the people that they’re dating that we want to, so that they’re using the same platform that any other you know, Essentially, they’re providing the same dating platform that any other organisms in the other dating service would. But but they were using such an algorithm that requires that the person they raised, the expectation they have a high bar. They have a high bar to have my heart hyre Barda entry. Yeah. Yeah. So the point of entry in getting into the system is much higher than then. You know, the average Joe guy who’s going in and looking for you because I mean, the application I filled out. I mean, the application that you have to fill out is long, and it’s intended to prove that you are looking for a serious relationship, not just dating and sleeping around, which is why I abandoned. But, I mean, I would abandon if I if I if you ever ever had, because, uh, you know, coming out of a marriage. Well, all right, let’s let’s just drop that. Um Okay. So what’s the analog to fund-raising? Well, so both both the both the harmonies of the world and all the other dating websites are using technology to essentially draw in and engage with their customers with their perspective customers, in our case, with perspective donors. And there’s no reason why we have to, as a nonprofit organization, assume that there’s not ways too raised the bar and set the expectation hyre rather than just make it, um, brother than lower the bar. Okay, So what does that? What does that look like? Give us some examples of raising the bar as you’re dealing with this, this middle tier of donors and you’re trying to upgrade them. Most of my clients. Most of my clients are hearing from me that the donor, the donor who makes the initial gift, needs to be receptive to a to a thank you call and a first time needing so any time, um to ah, to ah, an in person meeting. And and And so if Tony, if you sent one hundred dollars on giving Tuesday back in November to my charity one of my clients, you’re going to receive a thank you call from that charitable organization and they’re going to allocate somebody’s time to sit down with you. Um, acknowledged that gift and begin to set the expectation that if if you’re going to be one of our donors, we’re going to expect more than that hundred dollars of you every year. But in return, we’re going toe. You know, we’re going to do things like we’re going to sit down and occasionally have a cup of coffee with you, Okay? And and if you say in the book, you quote Jerry Panis in the book, saying, eighty percent of the, uh, the work of non-profit fundraisers is getting that first meeting. So So you also like that? Are you telling your class, then? For the for the ones who won’t sit down after the hundred dollar gift? We’re not goingto you know where we won’t be spending personal time with them anymore, right? That’s exactly right. I disagreeing. I’m just I’m just trying to flush you out at that. That’s an example of how you would begin to discern. So all of my clients use what I referred Teo three lanes. And if you’re if you’re a donor who’s going Teo, be duitz. If if If you’re a donor, who’s going to be expected of, um you know, five times, five times what? That initial gift wass you, Khun, you, Khun, therefore expect us to similarly invest in that relationship. And Gerald Panis is, you know that he he told that to. He pointed that out to a lot of us, and I don’t know why we have not sort of taken that same logic and used it as a way to sort of test who these people are that we’re interacting with. Uh, you know, after that, initial gifted, the person will not sit down with you for a cup of coffee and talk about why your organization is of interest to them. Um, where that relationships going to go long term is seems very sceptical to may. Okay, so then, in that case, we will just continue to accept the person’s hundred dollar gift per year. I guess. Obviously, we’ll send thank you notes, but we’re not going to get well, send standard. Thank you’s your your advice would be, um, I getting this right, But but we wouldn’t. Wouldn’t be calling the person to say thank you. You after year, we’re going to move on to find people who will sit down with us after they’re They’re one hundred dollar gift. Is that Do I have that right? Yeah. Yeah, I got into a conversation with someone the other day. That was sort of along this line. Of what? So what do you do with that individual who sends you a hundred dollars on giving Tuesday? Refuses tto have that cup of coffee. Do you, you know, is that if that person completely ignored from there, you know, what do they do? They do. They now occupy a spot on your database or don’t pay, and and you continue to mail to them. I I tend to be more extreme in my in my encouragements. And I say, Look, you know, if if if if a subsequent that person’s names on your database within six months if you’re not getting a subsequent gift from that person, I think you need to allow the science of fund-raising to sort of work in your favor. And you need to sort of say, this person’s really probably not going anywhere with us. And they’re occupying a spot on our database in such a way that’s going to constantly convince us that there’s opportunity there when it’s not there. Um, and so what do you do? As a result? What? Let’s get drill down to the nitty gritty of this. What do you do with the person you’re staying? You stop inhaling. Yeah. I’m not selling to that person any more than okay, like a custom cannot nailing to that person anymore. Not even to Mom. Not even to maintain their hundred dollars. Well, the thing about that hundred dollars is that hundred dollars. It is the same that is in and of itself what I’m talking about with new act with arms linked fund-raising. The organization is convincing itself that that that’s the way that fund-raising works, and so I’m not only trying to raise more money, but I’m also trying to combat these assumptions as to how this works, if used. If you continue to spend money, be it a little or being a lot of money every year to renew that hundred dollars, That’s one hundred dollars that I can’t spend to pay somebody to go and have that cup of coffee with somebody. Um, and find out that someone else who did give on giving Tuesday and will sit down for a cup of coffee will agree to give five times as much money. Okay, wait, we gotta look confused. We’re not. We’re not spending a hundred dollars to get a hundred, but whatever we are spending, you wantto allocate that elsewhere. I do. Right? I’m trying to get people to to do best. You know you’re going to reduce their investment in new acquisition and anything that looks like new acquisition and reinvest it in. And because a lot of people will say to me when I’m making this case, they’re going to say to me, Jason, we can’t afford to send people out to have cups of coffee for five hundred dollars gifts. And in my pushback on, that is Well, of course, you can’t not on the model that you have now that is dependent on, you know, extort, maintaining extraordinary volumes with relationships that don’t yield types of support you want to get. But when you changed the economics, it becomes much less. Because it becomes a much less scary, uh, proposal. When you when you start, when you start to see donors, you can see this. You see this play out when when organizations start taking donors out the lunch when they start having coffee conversations in these donorsearch art, giving five and ten times as much they gave that first time the light goes on in their head and they realised, OK, this how this works. Okay, hold hold there. I got to take another break. Sure, tell us. This is the long stream of passive revenue. You get half the fee when tell those processes. Credit card transactions for companies that you refer. It’s perfect for small organizations that need more revenue. Revenue. Diversity Red. This is revenue you don’t have to work for each month each year like Jason hyre talking about. It’s passive. Watch the video, then send companies to watch and make your ask. Go to Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s I Want to do the live Listener Love. As I had said, We’re not live here. I’m at NTC. Let’s not Let’s not rehash that that morass again. But the live love goes out for the people who are listening live. Thank you. I’m glad you’re with us on the podcast. Pleasantries to the over thirteen thousand listeners in the time shift pleasantries to you. I’m grateful that you are with us. Now. Let’s go back to Jason Lewis. Okay. Anything more? You wanted Teo say about the shifting economics? The reallocation of resource is, um the abandonment of of donors that look tantalizing, but they’re never really going to come. They’re never going to come around. So, yeah, the only thing the only thing I would point out again, I just something that I don’t unpack in great detail in the book. But I want us to pay it. I want any anyone who’s reading my book, but I do want them. Tio, keep in mind that that hundred dollar gift that we’re talking about. So you’re you’re begging the question. Okay, What do we do about that hundred dollars gift that will not convert to a lunch table conversation into a larger gift? The reality is that more and more non-profit organizations are going to be enlisting the help of outside. You know, vendors outsource sort of solutions that they can largely be executed via technology, and they’re not gonna be employing full time fundraisers to just to maintain that hundred dollars gift. And so part of what I’m pushing back on in the book is the definition of what fund-raising talent is. And I’m saying that if the donor when you get the one hundred dollars on giving Tuesday, um, your ability is a fundraiser to pick up the phone and ask for that gift, that’s where the job start, not where it wraps up and we’re not. I don’t think you’re going to see non-profit organizations in the same numbers that we historically have be paying fund-raising professionals to acquire these first gifts. There’s no, there’s no necessity for that. We can outsource that. We can rely on technology to do that. And anything that technology and in an outsourcing solution can’t do, Um, can be accomplished with volunteers. Wait. Don’t need to pay fundraisers to secure initial gifts. Volunteers or technology. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I wanna make I wanna make one thing clear. I don’t beg II. Just ask. I’m not begging. Okay. Um, you talk about you wanna spend some time on deliberate practice for fundraisers and, uh, by my count. You got four different for maybe five include the include the list, right? Include the last five deliberate the river practices that you want to see fundraisers engaging because you feel again You know, I’m summarizing I’m not giving you a chance to flesh out everything because you tend to be allover boast So I I can’t I can’t spend time everything that you have. But you’re the author too, so I don’t blame you. You know, I’ve never written a book, so I just talk, You know, it’s just it’s just, uh a different medium, but yeah. So, you know, you you, uh you don’t feel that experience in it is experience in and of itself creates good fund-raising, which which, I mean, I think that’s got some intellectual or some some some some appeal that’s intuitive as well. Just because you’ve been doing something for thirty years doesn’t mean you do it. Well, you could be very mediocre and lackluster for thirty years. Maybe you got better. But that still doesn’t mean you’re you know, you’re at the peak of your game or he thinks, Oh, so you like to see instead of just experience, Uh, you like you like fundraisers to engage in these deliberate practices. You, uh, you want to kick off with What? A deliberate practice. That’s your favorite? Yeah. The one of the deliberate practices that I use. I’ve scored the most points with when I’m trying to train up development officers with my clients. Is this concept of two weeks out? And and what that means is that when you pick up the phone so this same scenario that I was talking about, what with the coffee after giving Tuesday, um, you schedule all your meetings two weeks out. So if I called you up, Tony and said, um, you know, thank you for the contribution you made on giving Tuesday. Can we get together for a cup of coffee? I don’t allow my clients to schedule that needing any sooner than two weeks out on their schedule. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason I’m doing that is because I’m trying to get the donor to signal to the organization that they are, in fact, a priority for the organization. And therefore we will put I will put you on my calendar, and I will. I will give you that spot on my calendar two weeks out. Kind of like you and I. We scheduled this, uh, this interview here, you signaled to me that I was important to you. And so you put me on your schedule, and that signals a heightened level of, you know, equality in the relationship that had we not scheduled it. Um, you know, if you would have just sort of reached out yesterday and said, Hey, can you get together? Six O’Clock. That would have signalled something very different. And I think that’s what’s happening with a lot of the way that development officers interact with their donors, is there not? They’re not raising the bar. They’re not raising the expectation of saying, hey, make me a priority in your schedule. Um, and consequently if if that happens, you’re going to also become a quality. You know, you’re going to become a priority, and they’re giving. Okay, So So you say even even if even if the sounds like somebody’s checking in checking in xero noisy group chaillou busload just come in to check in for the night or something. Maybe they’re there. Maybe they’re on their way to Ocean City. All right. Okay. Um, but you. You make the point. Even if s o, I call someone’s made a hundred dollars gift I call and the donor the donor says, Yeah, yeah, I’ve got I’ve got space on my calendar. We could we could do it on, uh, we could do with this Friday. Yeah. Yeah. You want to turn that? You want me to turn that down? I do. I want you to turn that down because I’m trying to train up your patterns and habits, and I’m trying to get a read. I’m trying to get a signal from the donor as to whether or not you’re truly a priority for them. Um, and so I want you to stay to them. No, I can’t do that. Um, one of things. A new development. A new development officer who’s just starting out. He or she will generally answer that question. And if you say I could get together this Friday, once you come on over, you know, development offices, that development officer that’s not all that busy would say. Sure, I can do that. Yeah, but our ability to maintain most of my development officers are hearing for me that I want fifteen to twenty meetings a month. You’re not going to get into the habit of successfully scheduling fifteen to twenty meetings a month if you’re not scheduling them two weeks out. And so you have to start setting yourself up now for what? You anticipate your schedule look like? Um okay, I don’t Okay? I don’t understand that. I don’t understand your premise. How come? Are you all right? We gotta take a break. So I’m going there on here. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Uh, we take a break, but I’m goingto I’m challenging something. I don’t understand your premise. You just said you’re not gonna be able to schedule fifteen to twenty meetings a month if you’re if you’re not scheduling them two more. Two more weeks out. Okay? I don’t understand. I don’t understand that premise, but we’re gonna take a break, and then I’ll let you go. You respond? Yep. Our last break text to give diversify your revenue by adding mobile. Giving another another revenue. Diverse afire. Mobile giving. Not only for disasters. You can build relationships by text. Where was Jason? Just talking about using technology. You see how this fits together to not happen. Stance As much a cz Many times I tell you, I feel like a taste. My mother still doesn’t believe it. Um, I should use my my dad is the example. So I’m like, my dad still doesn’t believe it. You can’t build relationships by technology and by text. You’re doing it all the time with family and friends. Do it with donors. You can learn how, by the five party male, many course. It dispels misconceptions and explains how to get started. Build relationships through technology, see how it fits together. Text NPR to four, four, four nine nine, nine. We’ve got several more minutes left for the war for fund-raising talent. Okay. Jason Lewis. So, um, yeah, I don’t understand your premise. What? Well, how come I can’t schedule fifteen to twenty if I if I do use the intervening two weeks from from when I’m making calls. Yeah. So I want the development officer to get into a habit of scheduling all of his or her meetings two weeks out so that he or she can maximize his or her time. Um, and, you know, have the advantage of time to do that. Scheduling it’s what I’m trying to get you to avoid is a tear. Any of the urgent? So a lot of develop a lot of non-profit two years of any sort are running around putting fires out all the time, Um, because they’re allowing the tyranny of the urgent to sort of overwhelmed them. And I don’t want that, too to factor into your fund-raising practices anymore than I want that to factor in anywhere else. Um, so I’m both trying tio to coach the development officer in his or her management of their time, And I’m also trying to ensure that the donor is signaling back to you that you’re a priority for them. And that’s what this particular deliberate practice does is that it signals, um it also signals to the development. I mean, it’s signals to the donor. Yes. I called you up here with the donor. If you’re the donor and I call you up. And I said, Can we get together? And you say, Come on over tomorrow and I say, No, I can’t do that. I’m busy. That also signals to you that I’m a busy guy and that my time is important. Um, and okay, okay. I get your Yeah. All right. All right. So there’s some, uh, little bit of scarcity. You know, my time is important. Uh, it’s and it’s already booked, so Okay. All right. And he’s not your only you understand. That’s not your only you know that. That’s not loose back all the way back to where we started at the beginning of the conversation. I mean, if we’re constantly in this sort of this here inferior spot, Um, you know, we’re always in this sort of begging posture allowing the donor to sort of do whatever they say we’re going to do, um, whether it be on the schedule or what we do with their money? Um, yeah. Okay. Let’s talk about another deliberate practice we got. We got five of them. Yes. Go ahead. You name one. Then I’ll pick one after you go ahead or the last one. The last one, I think, is the one that tends to push my development officers the most. And that is that you always ask in person, and you follow-up on paper. And what that means is so Earlier this week, I was in Texas with one of my clients and I’m coaching the gentleman on on how to solicit gifts. And And I’m insisting that first you asked the donor for this gift in person, and then you be prepared when you return to the office. If you haven’t already drafted this letter, you re articulate exactly what was, uh, what what was requested. And you put it back and you put it in the mail so that the donor receives that essentially the same request in written form. What that does it does. It does a couple of things, um, the first thing that it does that ensures that the person who’s, uh, making the solicitation in person, it ensures that they’re speaking very explicitly that they’re not sort of beating around the bush with whatever they’re asking for because they know that there’s a letter back it back at the office. It’s going to get written that’s going to state everything explicitly, um, and written out as well. The other thing that it does that create sort of AA closing of the, uh uh, the the oversight loop, if you will. The way in which development officers air over the way in which there e-giving oversight from their supervisors this letter, this letter that goes out to Mr Mrs Smith, it says thank you for meeting with me. I hope you’ll you know, if you give consideration to the gift of ex, whatever I asked you for, close that loop with the supervisor cubine carbon copy the supervisor on this loop and it essentially signals to the developer to the boss to the managing to the over the manager is that you’re essentially doing your job. Um, one of the things I critique development officers all the time for doing is we think that they’re paid. We the non-profits think that these people are paid to raise money. They’re not actually paid to raise money. They’re paid to ask for money, but we don’t give any way. For our supervisors are boards and bosses to ever see that they’re raised that they’re asking for money. So this is just one of those ways that we can demonstrate that we’re going, you know, full circle that from the point at which we, you know, acknowledged the first gift to the point at which we asked for a very significant gift. That’s what you’re getting paid for. You’re not getting paid for. Ah, guaranteeing that that person turns around, writes a check that’s not within your control. Okay, Jason. Unbelievably, we have to leave it there. We did not get to the full five delivered practices which are assigned list. You should have one hundred fifty. No more than fifty and meaningful conversations are. That’s a good one. Meaningful conversations you’ve got. You’ve got to get the book. You know, you don’t want to have these shallow conversations on DH. Subsequent meetings should be in teams. Those of the three that we didn’t get to the book is the war for fund-raising talent. You’ll find that Amazon, you’ll find Jason Lewis. He’s all around, Let’s see. But specifically, you’ll find him at the generous life and that louis fund-raising dot com. Jason, thank you so much. Thank you. Tony has been great for my pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for putting me at the top of the other ten or twelve podcasts that did not ask about harmony. No slackers. Slackers like lost a lackluster, lackluster podcasters. Okay, next week, talk about lackluster. I don’t know. I don’t know what next week’s show is going to be. If you missed any part of today’s show. I beseech you, Find it on tony martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P by Wagner CPAs. Guiding you Beyond the numbers records cps dot com By Tello’s Credit card and Payment Processing You’re passive revenue stream Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers Claire Meyerhoff, Sam Liebert, says the line producer. There is no music. How can I say the music is by Scott Stein? There it is. That’s a family with the line producer. It’s his job to put the music up. Show Social Media’s by Susan Chavez. He’s ninety nine out of one hundred, so, you know, give him a break. 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