Tag Archives: accessible websites

Nonprofit Radio for May 10, 2021: Online Meetings For All & Online Accessibility Beyond Meetings

My Guests:

Cindy Leonard & John Kenyon: Online Meetings For All

Cindy Leonard and John Kenyon continue our 21NTC coverage, with strategies and tips to make your virtual meetings accessible and inclusive. They’re with Cindy Leonard Consulting and he’s with John Kenyon Consulting.





Martin Cacace: Online Accessibility Beyond Meetings

We identify potential issues, help you prioritize what to fix and pick out the low-hanging fruit. My guest is Martin Cacace at Bound State Software and this is also from 21NTC.



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[00:02:05.94] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer with a vascular necrosis if you killed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Online meetings for all. Cindy Leonard and John Kenyon continue our 21 NTC coverage with strategies and tips to make your virtual meetings accessible and inclusive there with Cindy Leonard consulting and he’s with john Kenyon consulting, both happily named and online accessibility. Beyond meetings. We identify potential issues, help you prioritize what to fix and pick out the low hanging fruit. My guest is Martin Kosei at bound state software and this is also from 21 NTCC on tony state too. It’s vacation planning time. We’re sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Here is online meetings for all. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc, you know what that is. The 2021 nonprofit technology conference conferences virtual this year Were sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C O. My guests now are Cindy Leonard and john Kenyon. Cindy is Ceo at Cindy Leonard consulting and john is principal at john Kenyon consulting. They both have aptly named companies. Welcome Welcome Cindy welcome john

[00:02:09.64] spk_2:
thank you. Thanks Tony, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having us.

[00:02:54.34] spk_1:
Pleasure to have each of you. Your session is intentional. Facilitation choices, creating online meetings for all to enjoy. I put the emphasis on all, but I think we’ll, we’ll explore, explore why we want to do that. So Uh, Cindy, let’s start with you. What, what obviously is very timely but, and, and online meetings we expect to continue right. I mean these are not going to die once the once 90 of the folks or you’ve either been vaccinated or had the coronavirus or whatever. Online meetings are not going away. What just generally, what could we be doing better? It seems like it seems like a lot of mediocrity.

[00:04:01.54] spk_2:
A lot of mediocrity. That’s an interesting. That’s an interesting way to put it. Yeah. So the part of this session, the idea was that, you know, now that everybody has been doing zoom and online meetings for about a year now, you know, we’ve all gotten used to the technological parts. Um, we felt like it was time to do a session that goes beyond that somebody at the Ntc, I forget the breakout session. Um, but they said that technology is a mirror. So when you hold it up to your nonprofit, it reveals all the broken processes and broken tools. And I thought that was very apt. And when you think about that regarding online meetings, you know, everything in terms of inequity, inaccessibility, um, lack of diversity, power dynamics tend to be magnified, you know, where those things existed in person meetings. The technology adds an extra layer of complication. That makes things more inaccessible, more inequitable unless you do specific things to counteract that. And so that’s what this session was largely about.

[00:04:12.74] spk_1:
John you want to add to the Cindy’s introduction at all?

[00:04:39.44] spk_3:
Sure. That like Cindy said, you know, we really tried to share what our vision is for inclusive meetings. And so that means that all folks can contribute equally if they desire and that it’s okay not to using things like you would in person like a talking piece to go around and make sure everyone is able to engage meaningfully and to share. And that it’s okay if if they don’t want to. But digitally we just list people’s name in the chat and have everyone go through so we make sure we don’t miss anyone.

[00:05:00.24] spk_1:
Mm Okay. Okay. Uh so how can we be more intentional as we’re setting up a meeting? Is that a is that is that a place to start? Can we like sort of maybe take this chronologically through uh through a meeting? The pre meeting? The during the meeting and then the post meeting? Is that by doing it justice, if we do it that way?

[00:05:38.94] spk_2:
Yeah, we actually um we split we split our section up into three main sections. One was about inclusion and Power Dynamics. Another section was accessibility techniques, how to before during and after with those and experiential and reflective techniques. So we actually demonstrated a variety of interactive activities that could be used to engage your as a facilitator to engage the audience. So those were the three main sections.

[00:05:45.34] spk_1:
Okay. Is it okay if we uh well I don’t, I don’t want to mess up your

[00:05:50.34] spk_2:
no, you’re fine,

[00:05:52.27] spk_1:
john can we do it? Is that

[00:06:06.04] spk_2:
okay? I think so, yeah, john and Griffin, Griffin Castillo, um who’s not with us today? Uh Griffin and john were covering the power dynamics portion of this. So I think starting there is probably a good idea to john.

[00:06:10.74] spk_3:
Sure. So yeah, tony if it’s okay, I’m going to talk about some aspects of inclusion and then I’ll start to do that. I’ll talk about before during and after a meeting.

[00:06:18.64] spk_1:
Okay, Thank you. Great.

[00:06:20.29] spk_0:
All right.

[00:07:00.64] spk_3:
So some of the aspects of inclusion that we want to make sure people are aware of are the some of the advantages that we bring to our meetings online from having the latest technology to having older technology or only phones and even recognizing folks have no internet access in some areas. Understanding there’s advantages when it comes to digital literacy with computers or software, even having a dedicated space to participate. Our co presenter, Griffin Castillo, is the racial equity ambassador for the Oakland School system and so many students are sharing space with other family members. Understanding some people can respond quickly versus those who are reflective thinkers. So providing different modes for people to share as well as the very common advantages of having expertise, seniority or rank or relational privilege. So you want to be aware of those aspects and then there are specific things you can do before, during and after your meetings to make sure that you’re creating an inclusive and accessible meeting.

[00:08:26.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Well, I mean I gotta, I gotta start with the obvious. You know, I’m asking neophyte questions. You, you all spend, I’ve spent years thinking about these things and I’m coming at it quite a bit newer, uh, for folks who don’t have the technology that’s needed. How do we include them in a meeting that we’re planning online? That has to be online by because of the pandemic, by the way. If you hear any background noise, I’m having some renovations done. So maybe you’re banging. Yeah, there’s a little hammering, buying little drilling going on. So, uh, that’s, that’s, that’s your lackluster host with talk about a non private. I mean, I guess, uh, they’re much, there are much worse environments to have to be a party to a meeting in, but I’m in a lesser one than I than I would like. But that’s what, that that’s what that is, listeners. You’re, you’re hearing my stairs being renovated. Okay. So what about folks who don’t have any, they don’t even access, They don’t have digital access. How do we accommodate them? How have we accommodated them and how can we going forward in online meetings?

[00:09:10.84] spk_3:
Sure. So two of the ways we talked about were make sure that you’re providing offline readable versions of any documents or presentations for those who can’t see them live or can’t see them online but may be able to download them as well as documenting your notes and providing recordings, either video or audio to allow folks to review materials, digest them at their own pace. And that also supports accessibility, which are some of the pieces that Cindy talked about. Okay.

[00:09:21.84] spk_1:
It still seems like, I don’t know. It still seems insurmountable though if you’re, if you’re giving them a recording, but I mean if they don’t have internet access, how can you give them the recording?

[00:09:44.34] spk_3:
Sure. So the example I use, I often work with native american people and for example sometimes they need to drive a half hour in order to get a signal on their phone. Or they could go to a library on the reservation or wherever they are. So it is possible for them to get access. It just may not be live and it just may not be high speed. So as long as you’re providing those materials and there is a way for them to get them and put them on their devices or print them out if needed. That helps.

[00:10:16.44] spk_1:
So as you’re planning meetings you need to be aware that there may be folks that are going to raise their hand and say I can’t attend the zoom meeting at one o’clock tomorrow. You know, I don’t have that kind of access or I don’t have the, you mentioned even the privacy, uh, maybe they have online access, but they don’t have a private space to to listen and, and yeah, to listen and participate.

[00:11:20.14] spk_3:
Sure. Yeah. So I’ll talk about some of the things um, that that I covered and then I’m going to pass it to Cindy because she’s got some great ideas and when it comes to accessibility for people of all abilities. So one of the things tony that like you said before the meeting, it’s really important to discuss the issues that I mentioned about, you know, advantages and and our vision um with those with privilege to get by in so that they understand we want to allow all voices to be heard and that we think about ways to include everyone when we’re planning for meetings, Um that we, you know, make sure that that is part of our planning. That we ask attendees about accommodation needs up front during registration and that we have a plan to accommodate people with different abilities so that you know, we already know somebody who can do american sign language interpretation. We already know someone who can live caption. Uh, the presentation that we’re giving. Um, and I know for example, other pieces that that Cindy helped us worked on was if you have somebody who is sight impaired or blind, um reading the description of any visuals that you have. And Cindy was also great because she added something called all text that I’ll let her talk about two images. Cindy talk about that for us.

[00:11:47.04] spk_1:
Let them uh, we’re talking about inclusion. Accessibility. Cindy, Cindy is them Cindy. Thank you. I just you know, it’s all done in politely but you know, we got to be respectful. Right? It’s

[00:11:56.73] spk_2:
all right. Yeah. Absolutely. And I don’t walk if somebody says she her I don’t I don’t freak out. Okay. I do identify this non binary.

[00:12:05.14] spk_1:
Do the better you do the best we can. All right.

[00:12:07.24] spk_2:
Yeah. So yeah. One of the

[00:12:09.54] spk_1:
we’ll never make that mistake again. I assure you that.

[00:14:21.74] spk_2:
Okay. Um So yeah, so um one of the things that we did uh did we did do as an accessibility technique during the meeting and we probably should be doing this for radio interviews as well. One would think whenever we did our introductions uh for example, I said I’m Cindy Leonard from local velocity learned consulting. And I am a white white person with long straight brown hair and green glasses and today I have on a plaid sweater and I’m sitting with a yellow blank yellow wall background behind me and the idea of describing yourself um for people who aren’t either are excited or how vision impairment, but there’s also people that, you know, if you’ve ever tried to connect to a zoom meeting on your phone, the video isn’t always great or maybe you’re not in a place where you can watch the video, but you’re listening to it. Maybe you’re commuting or in your car. Um, so having that visual described is really important, not just for people with vision impairments, but for everyone, you know, and I talked a little bit during my piece about universal design, you know, and so one of the great examples of universal design design that is good for everyone helps people with disabilities. That is also good for morgan. What more of an audience is the concept of curb cuts Now, this is a low tech example, but the curb cut that, that little cut out at the corner of a sidewalk, you know, it’s, it’s great for people with using a wheelchair. It’s great for people using on a cane, you know, walking that have blindness. But insults are great for women and strong women with babies in strollers. It’s great for delivery persons. It’s great for older people who tend to trip on, you know, as we age, we tend to trip more. Um, so the idea is to make your power point and your meeting and your handouts more accessible and it helps everyone, not just people with disabilities.

[00:14:38.64] spk_1:
I’ve had guests from previous ntc’s make that point often. Uh Usually I think in the, in the context of a web, web, web design, uh it benefits benefits everyone. It reduces, you know, if if you’re using the right contrast levels, it reduces eyestrain for for everybody uh etcetera

[00:16:22.34] spk_2:
etcetera. Alright. Yeah, it really does overlap. I’ve been one of my, one of my consulting practice pieces is web website development, which I’ve been doing for about 20 years and there is a lot of overlap. A lot of the things that I’m saying about your power point back also applies to your website. So for example, the alternative text alternative text is what is red in lieu of the file name of a photo. So if I’m, let’s say I am a person who is blind and I’m using a screen reader software that is reading the web page to me or reading the power point debt to me when it gets to the images. If it doesn’t have alternative text which is descriptive text that you deliberately added to the image, it will read the file name of the image that’s been inserted or that’s uploaded. And that means, you know, it’ll read like, like image, it will say like I M G 678 jpeg. And that means nothing to anyone. So the idea is to describe the images in the alternative tax, so that, you know, whenever whenever I’m trying to figure out how to do that, when I’m either doing a website or a power point is I like to pretend that I’m sitting here in my office with somebody who has vision impairment and that I’m trying to, you know, like, here’s a picture, I’m trying to explain to them what is on the picture. So it’s helpful to me to imagine a person beside me that I’m trying to describe something to.

[00:16:47.54] spk_1:
Mhm john how about um if we transition um we’re a little bit all all encompassing, but uh that’s okay, that’s fine. As long as folks get the information, it doesn’t really matter what, what format it comes in or what, what, what theme we use. But like is there anything you can say specific to during, during a meeting that we haven’t talked about yet?

[00:16:50.64] spk_2:
The, the,

[00:16:52.14] spk_1:
that we need to

[00:18:14.44] spk_3:
Sure. So some of the things that we did in our session and that I try to do consistently is when I introduce myself as you mentioned earlier, using uh sharing that. I’m john Kenyon and my pronouns are he and him just as Cindy’s pronouns, are they in them and I’m not enforcing that or asking everyone to, to say that, but it just helps people with different gender identities feel included. Something else I do is when I introduced myself, I say that I’m coming to you from the occupied lands of the native coast, miwok people and that I send my respects to them and their leaders past, present and emerging again to just recognize that the land on which I am currently living was not originally my land and again helps people who are native people feel included. And that’s a practice I actually learned from my Australian colleagues because they are trying to be respectful of the Aborigines, the native Australian people. I’d also say that what we try to do is have real clear guidelines for participants. Something excellent that one of our session participants shared was doing, including things such as suspending judgment, suspending guilt, suspending assumptions and embracing awareness toward understanding, embracing leaning into discomfort. If you don’t feel comfortable with the topic or sharing, being able to lean into that,

[00:18:27.14] spk_1:
lean into meaning, express it,

[00:18:29.29] spk_3:
that’s right. Being in

[00:18:31.08] spk_1:
a forum where you can you can say something

[00:18:45.24] spk_3:
right and being able to say so, you know, tony you’re you’re our boss and you’re handling this meeting and you’re not letting any of, you know, the emerging leaders of the younger folks speak and you know, finding respectful and positive ways to bring that out. So for example, just to name that, to say, you’re not letting other folks speak, why is that? I’m not judging you, I’m not shaking my finger at you, but that we’re naming it,

[00:19:02.74] spk_1:
bring out the power dynamics

[00:19:23.54] spk_2:
and some accessibility related things that we do during a meeting are they’re actually pretty intuitive once, once you hear them, but if you don’t deliberately think about them, you know that you can miss things. But for example, use plain language, you know, every industry has a lot of jargon and you cannot guarantee everybody knows the jargon.

[00:19:25.89] spk_1:
non profit radio we have drug in jail

[00:19:28.50] spk_2:
in jail. I like it. I’m not hesitant to put people in like a

[00:19:32.48] spk_1:

[00:19:33.59] spk_2:
acronyms are another big thing in our second, everybody loves their, you know, so don’t say in 10 say the nonprofit technology network first, you know, okay, well,

[00:20:27.14] spk_1:
and then they don’t want to be the nonprofit technology network anymore. They’re like, I was thinking maybe he said that, but I’ve been admonished by the CEO maybe I said and 10 earlier, but example award that the N 10 Ceo is is a regular contributor, a technology contributor to my show, she’s admonished me to stop saying non profit Technology Network. So it comes from that comes to the top, but absolutely acronyms, you know, fundraising is full of them. I do plan giving and there’s all kinds of acronyms around trusts and just the, the, the assumption that everybody knows what you’re talking about. I mean I I shoot my hand up and say, what is that? You know, I’m right, right self, I’ve been doing it all my life, so it’s, you know, Uh, so I don’t mind people, but if one person doesn’t understand it’s probably 50 or don’t.

[00:21:11.84] spk_2:
Exactly. Another another point, another point is to give sufficient time a little more than you think you need to for people getting into breakout rooms on on the online software, forgetting to any third party exercises, responding in the chat box, any interactive activities. Not everybody is a fast clicker. You know, like I’m a power user. I guess you could say I’m on a laptop or a computer, so I’m really fast on the clicking, but not everybody is like that. People need time. Some people need more time to find what they’re supposed to be doing or where they’re supposed to be calling. So you want to be careful about that as well? Yeah.

[00:21:30.24] spk_1:
All right. Mm. Um, how about after after the meeting follow up, john you had mentioned. Uh, I think it was you john readable documents. Uh, what else, what else should we be doing and follow up to be sensitive to

[00:21:52.34] spk_3:
Sure. So just to reiterate, like I said, making sure that you have all your documents and notes and things like that that you can share with people so they can download them and read them off line or print them out. Something else that was suggested in our session. And that we try to do is post meeting surveys and ask, how did we do with inclusion? How did we do with accessibility if you’re an emerging leader? Did you feel centered? Did you feel excluded or included? Did we give everyone time and space to participate whether they’re able to share immediately or There are more reflective thinkers, like many of us are

[00:22:10.84] spk_1:
Cindy, anything you want to add there?

[00:22:13.57] spk_2:
No, not at all. But that’s great, john that was a great summary. I would like to send a shout out to our, we mentioned Griffin Castillo, one of our co

[00:22:22.66] spk_1:
presenter. I was gonna, I was gonna put a moratorium on mentioning him because he didn’t join us for the interview here.

[00:22:58.84] spk_2:
No. And now so are other co presenter his name, I don’t think we’ve mentioned yet is Jean Allen and Jeanne Allen is she’s, she’s a dual role. She’s with a nonprofit, she’s on the board of a nonprofit in north Carolina with his name, which name of which I cannot remember. Um but she’s also uh independent nonprofit consultant herself. She’s been at it for many years. Very smart lady. She ran she talked about all of the interactive how exercises how to include more engagement and your breakout session to make it more interesting or in your in your online meeting.

[00:23:12.64] spk_1:
Is there anything from that that you can you can share as well as you would have. But I mean for engagement possibilities in online Yeah, what can you reveal?

[00:23:53.04] spk_2:
Yeah, it was something as simple to an exercise. She called the chatter fall exercise chatter fall like a waterfall. Um And we put a put a question on the screen that says an idea emerging for me is why. And she had them all not hit send but deployed at their answers with the reflections in the comments box of chat box. And then she had them all had sent at the same time and it was just this beautiful cascade of all kinds of thoughts and comments all coming out at once. And there was a lot of, there were a lot of unifying ideas and themes emerged from that. And then she also showed us a tour

[00:23:59.21] spk_1:
which, hold on, tell me again, what was the lead into that? What was the statement that folks were supposed to fill in the blank? What we asked

[00:24:13.34] spk_2:
them to tell us an idea emerging for me, meaning emerging from the sessions of our is. And then they were supposed to finish

[00:24:18.85] spk_1:
Thank you.

[00:24:56.44] spk_2:
Yeah, it could be any question. Of course. Of course, Yeah. Um and Jeanne also did a live example of a google jamma board. So jam, like, like let’s Jam, you know? Um and it’s a really, it’s almost like an inner john you can help me with the description on this. It’s almost like a, like an interactive, multi user whiteboard. It reminds me of a smart board, did you have in a classroom or a meeting room? Except that everybody accesses it at the same time. And you could add post it notes and and print on it and scribble on it. It’s really eat right. The double suite.

[00:25:15.84] spk_3:
That’s that’s right. Yeah. It’s almost as if, as we often do an offline meetings, you have a wall where people are putting up post its and people can put up post its and write anything they want on them. We were able even showed folks how we were able to upload images and pictures. So it’s, as Cindy said, this nice interactive place where people can share, you could even do something like here’s a question. Do you agree or not? And put your posted five is totally agree. One is, I don’t agree at all. So you get a spectrum of answers and see where people lie on the answer to the question. It’s not just thumbs up or thumbs down.

[00:25:42.14] spk_1:
This is called a google jam board jam board. And how does it relate to using zoom for meetings? Is it a is it like a screen share? Someone shares their screen and they show their jam board and then everybody, everybody can participate how zoom

[00:26:01.74] spk_2:
meeting you give them a link and you send them off to the tool, they stay in zoom, they stay in the room so they keep zoom active, but you’re sending them to their browser and it opens in a browser tab.

[00:26:16.84] spk_1:
Okay. So everybody’s doing it independently along alongside zoom. Okay. All right. We have just a couple minutes left. Anything that we haven’t talked about that either of you want to bring up in a closing a couple minutes.

[00:26:28.64] spk_3:
Uh huh. Sure. So I think for my closing, I would just share a participant quote from our session which which really resonated with me and they said, even if I’m a participant rather than a leader of a group, I can still practice and demonstrate accessible and inclusive practices by describing visuals, Making sure I engage people in the chat, sharing my pronouns, making sure I provide room for everyone to share,

[00:26:49.34] spk_1:
john why don’t you describe your background? Let’s try to put this into practice and I’ll do it in my clothes, Go ahead or describe yourself on your background.

[00:27:15.94] spk_3:
Great. So I’m john I’m a white male, I’ve got gray hair and a little bit of a beard. I’m sitting in a room that has white walls. I’ve got a kind of a delft blue curtain behind me and some flowers, the flowers are called veronica. Um and so yeah, that’s and I’m wearing a dark blue shirt.

[00:27:44.44] spk_1:
I’m Tony, I have a red t shirt on my hair is mostly white, a little smattering of dark remaining. But, but it’s, it’s stunning and dashing nonetheless, even though it’s 90% white uh, you know, you’re supposed to not supposed to editorialize right, supposed to keep it factual. I have stunning, stunning, boring background of my hp printer and uh pretty much white walls behind uh in a red t shirt and I wear glasses. I wear glasses.

[00:27:48.84] spk_2:
Thanks. That was excellent. Uh huh.

[00:27:52.54] spk_1:
Yeah, they are Cindy Leonard. Ceo, Cindy Leonard consulting and john Kenyon principal john Kenyon consulting thanks to each of you for sharing. Thank you. Cindy. Thank you john,

[00:28:03.84] spk_2:
thank you for having us. Real

[00:28:05.84] spk_3:
pleasure. Thank you.

[00:31:44.24] spk_1:
Thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Let’s talk a little bit more detail about them. The ambitious biden agenda released a couple of weeks ago. Is there anything in there that impacts your work touches on what you do at all? Anything you’d like to be heard on may be quoted on be a trusted source about you can improve your chances of getting an op ed published or being a source or getting quoted working with turn to because they have the relationships to make these things happen for you so so much better than you or someone in your office cold calling a journalist or blogger whoever it is that you’re trying to reach that doesn’t know you, you want somebody who’s got the relationships you want to turn to because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for Tony’s take two. It’s time to plan your summer time off. Yes, I uh It’s finger wagging time. No camera here. But you got to take care of yourself folks. Please. You need to take care of yourself this summer. What a what a 18 months it’s been. Maybe last summer was a blur. Certainly you couldn’t go anywhere. And I hope you didn’t because it wasn’t safe. It’s changed. You know that master of the obvious. So plan your summer. Get it. Let’s get the plans going. Get the reservations made, book the week book the two weeks. You’ve got to block it and then preserve it, preserve it for yourself. Honor it. It can’t be interrupted. You got to set boundaries set that time for yourself and make boundaries around it. Honor that time. No, I’m sorry you can’t get together then. No, I won’t be able to do that meeting. No, now now that that weekend is not good. Now that week isn’t good either. You gotta make time for yourself and preserve it. Please yourself. Your family. If you have a family, get that time away this summer, you need it, you deserve it. You want to take care of others. Whether it’s on the professional side, those folks you take care of or it’s on the family side, you want to take care of your family. You’ve got to take care of yourself, please this summer, especially of all of all summers since last summer was such a bad bust. Set the time aside. Honor it. No encroachments, do it for yourself, do it for those who you take care of. That is Tony’s take two. We have boo koo but loads more time for nonprofit radio here is online accessibility beyond meetings. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC the 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o. With me now is martin caucus a president of bound state Software martin. Welcome to nonprofit radio’s coverage of 21 ntc.

[00:31:53.94] spk_0:
Hi Tony, thanks for having me

[00:32:05.44] spk_1:
a pleasure, absolute pleasure. Your session was 10 common accessibility issues and how to fix them. I would like to start at the basic ground level. Let’s just define what accessibility is before we identify the issues.

[00:33:21.64] spk_0:
Yeah. So I think you can define accessibility as making well in this case like your websites, uh, making it accessible to everyone and what that means is that there’s four different levels. So whether they’re perceivable, which means that people can like actually see what’s going on operable, which means I can actually not like use your website without um special requirements. So if you for example a mouse or something like that, they might not be able to use that um understandable. So that means that they want to be able to you want to be able to make sure that people when they go to your website or accessing some content that they can understand what’s going on. It’s not confusing and robust. It means that it’s just a future proof and it can be used across various types of like uh technology. So like web browsers or um screen readers and stuff like that. So it kind of encompasses all that is making it is making your website be accessible to to everyone apart from if they have um impairments or anything like that, disabilities.

[00:33:37.24] spk_1:
We know what the penetration rate is among nonprofit websites. If we use that definition of accessibility. Um sorry,

[00:33:37.91] spk_0:
can you say that again?

[00:33:38.78] spk_1:
Do we know what the penetration rate is? How common are accessible websites in nonprofits using your definition?

[00:34:20.64] spk_0:
Uh, to be, I don’t have a specific number per se, but from just from my research and from browsing different types of websites. non profit websites. It’s not it’s not too common, like it’s something that I think it’s becoming more uh top of mine, but like I see it in proposals or RFP s and stuff like that more and more and more and more often, especially if the organization has like some government funding and the requirements come from that, but it’s not something that’s um commonly found. So

[00:34:32.64] spk_1:
there’s a lot of room for improvement. Yeah, I think so. Okay. Okay. Um can you help us spot potential problems on our own website? Yeah. Good. Sure.

[00:35:04.24] spk_0:
Um Yeah so that’s kind of what uh my talk with and at the conference and I just wanted to give people some some tools and like some understanding of what’s going on their website. So they can they could take them take them home and start working on it and see you know, how can we make our web sites more accessible? It might not be like fully accessible in terms of the various levels but at least getting started. So at the most basic level. So somebody has used enough system technology. Can you can use your website that goes a long way. So. Yeah,

[00:35:14.44] spk_1:
well we’re not gonna be able to do everything overnight. It’s not gonna be like flipping a switch but no we can approach this incrementally and make it more make our site more accessible.

[00:36:00.13] spk_0:
Yeah, exactly. I think that’s the right approach. So I think, to begin with, I wanted to like differentiate between a couple of different issues. So like sometimes these issues are caused by their technical issues, so it might be caused by the templates or in quotation marks, the code. Um, so you might need a developer, uh, to, to help you with it. And other ones are more like low hanging fruit. I think it’s just like things that are related to content. So a lot of the nonprofits use like content management systems to up their websites to create blogs and content. So some of this stuff can be like fixed through just having an understanding of, okay, what are the guidelines that should follow, um, to create more accessible content?

[00:36:15.33] spk_1:
Okay, yeah, So let’s let’s let’s focus on the low hanging fruit, the stuff we can do on our own because our listeners are small and midsize shops. So, you know, they may very well not have an internal developer and hiring an external developer maybe outside their means. So let’s start the stuff we can we can do on our own. Yeah, let’s do that thing. Yeah.

[00:37:06.53] spk_0:
So the first one is it’s pretty basic, but it’s um, it’s page title. So page titles are very important for for orientation. It’s the first thing, like for example, screen reader reads when you’re like when you line on a new page, it’s a good way to differentiate and move between pages and move between pages. So, um, you want to make sure that page titles are unique and they provide um enough information to know what that page is about. Um, another tip that you want to be looking for is that you want to make sure that the most unique and most relevant information comes first. So rather than putting like your organization name first, you want to put it at the end and make sure like whatever the pages about it comes up at the beginning. And this is also some of these practices are also like best practices for the web, but also for like a Ceo and things like that.

[00:37:18.53] spk_1:
Can you explain why does the organization name go at the bottom? Why is that lower?

[00:37:31.73] spk_0:
Because you want to make sure that whatever is the most important part, the most relevant to that page Comes 1st and then your organization comes

[00:37:34.17] spk_1:
after they already know they’re on your organization site. So

[00:37:53.03] spk_0:
yeah. So perhaps if you’re on the home page, you wouldn’t follow that. Like maybe like depends how your SEO strategy is. But if you’re on the about page or or blog article, you want to make sure that the title is at the beginning of the title of the blog or the title of your about page, because that’s kind of what that person is looking for, otherwise it can it can be distracting. Okay,

[00:37:58.53] spk_1:
okay. What else? What

[00:39:35.12] spk_0:
another thing is just headings like this is again pretty basic things, but you want to make sure that when you’re correct, craft and content. Um and a lot of the usability guidelines go hand in hand with like uh just sorry, the accessibility guidelines go hand in hand with usability. Um So when you’re making like, let’s say creating content for the web, you want to make sure that it’s split up and you’re using headings appropriately, so the continent’s more digestible, so it’s easier to understand, but it um and then also if you’re using these headings, you want to make sure that they follow a hierarchy. So typically pages will start with heading one, which is the largest heading. That will be the page title. And as you work down the page, you want to make sure that that hierarchy is maintained. So then that would follow by an H two tag, which again, if you’re using a content management system, you would be able to just select the H two tag is similar to like award uh like a more document and things like that. Um And then a little bit more technical is you want to make sure that when you when you’re selecting these headings that they actually look like headings and on the code side, you want to make sure that there for like their semantically um tagged as heading. So what that means is like in the actual page code is there’s like a little tag, this is H one H two H three, so it needs to be created that way because they’re used as anchors for again, for screen, right? Just to to be able to understand what’s going on. Some people that sounds like they’re sections,

[00:39:39.62] spk_1:
that sounds like it’s just a matter of highlighting the code. Sorry, highlighting the text and tagging it as H one H two H three. Yeah,

[00:39:53.72] spk_0:
exactly. And there’s little tools that you could use, like you don’t have to know how to look at the code. Like there’s plenty of um

[00:39:55.62] spk_1:
yeah, we’re trying to result there’s we’re trying to avoid the code for for right now. Yeah, you can do at our desk if we’re not a developer.

[00:40:02.85] spk_0:
Yeah, you could do this like um as long as you, if you’re using WordPress, you can just select the right appropriate tag and if the theme or or the template you’re using is properly done, then you shouldn’t have any issue.

[00:40:16.41] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Other low hanging fruit, I’m sure you’ve got a bunch of this bunch of these. Yeah.

[00:41:24.11] spk_0:
Yeah. So another one is uh your link, text a lot of the times, like people will put in something like for more information about my organization click here now um you you want to make sure that you’re when you’re creating links that people understand, like where they’re going, like where that link is taking them and so you want to be able to when you’re creating these links, you want to create, create context rich links. Um And the reason for that is because some some assistive technologies that allowed them to view all the links in one page, just so you land on a page, see all the lengths and they’re listed in order. So say that you have a lot of click here’s like they don’t really make sense out of context, so it doesn’t really help them, it’s confusing. So rather than doing something like that, you want to make sure that the the lengths make sense out of context. So you want to say, learn more about my organization, that’s the entire link. So when somebody is scanning through all the links, it makes sense to them.

[00:41:25.41] spk_1:
All right. So it’s a matter of which words are linked. Yeah,

[00:41:29.37] spk_0:
exactly. And

[00:41:30.00] spk_1:
linking the word here here here.

[00:41:42.41] spk_0:
Exactly, Yeah. And and the same thing goes with buttons, for example, you don’t want to have like buttons that are just generic like submit. You want to make sure that they’re descriptive. So, again, this goes hand in hand with usability. So you want to make sure that the button says for example if it’s a newsletter, subscribe to newsletter so they know what the action they’re taking.

[00:41:58.21] spk_1:
I see. All right. That that explains something that I’ve wondered about why some people have or some I see mostly in journalism too. And now I’m thinking about it you know like five or six words will be highlighted as the link. One of them.

[00:42:27.20] spk_0:
Yeah. And it’s also it’s also but yeah. Okay. And it’s also better for S. C. 02 because you’re that’s kind of uh in essence like google crawls your site through a boat. So and it’s very similar to a screen reader. Read it. So they would they look at the links and it’s like okay, this link is this. Um And then you would you answer that phrase and then that’s how it starts to understand what’s going on on your website and where web pages to navigate to. Yeah.

[00:42:38.70] spk_1:
Rich links. All right. Give us more. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:09.30] spk_0:
Yeah. Another one is um text alternatives. I’m sure everyone well not everyone, but this is more familiar. Like all text is the text alternative description of an image. So of course, if you’re if you can’t see and using a screen reader, you can’t see what the image is about. Uh So you can you can provide a description for the image um about what that image is about or the or why that that image is there. So what’s the function? Um If it’s just like a decorative image, you don’t you don’t need to put anything, but if it serves a purpose, it’s important to have that their

[00:43:18.98] spk_1:

[00:43:26.30] spk_0:
So typically when your uploaded a new image on your content management system, you have the option that they will be like a little descriptor field even say I’ll text and then you can just put it in there.

[00:43:33.60] spk_1:
All text. Yeah.

[00:43:55.50] spk_0:
Yeah. It’s it’s it’s very common. It’s just a lot of times you’re like uploading a lot of images and going through like doing a million things. So it’s one of the things that’s easy to miss and it can be hard to also to think about what uh huh what, what to put in there. So I think, yeah,

[00:43:57.40] spk_1:
I guess otherwise the person, the screen reader is just going to see like a file name.

[00:44:02.49] spk_0:
Yeah, exactly.

[00:44:03.68] spk_1:
Yeah. Image seven dot jpeg. Which is Yeah.

[00:44:32.29] spk_0:
Yeah. Or maybe a default value that the program are put in there. Might say default. Yeah. It’s not great. Yeah. And then in the same and lines with the, with the links that we talked about before, a lot of times you use images as links. So you want to make sure that in the all text, your including the destination, if you’re using an image for a link, making sure, okay, where is this link taking me? It’s it’s kind of tied into what we talked about before,

[00:44:40.09] spk_1:
yep. Okay. But the content, content and links. Okay. Others uh yeah.

[00:45:26.89] spk_0:
uh number five would be multimedia like so a podcast for example, um Not available like two people with with hard of hearing or death, um, visuals and videos are not able to people who are blind. So you want to, you want to provide a way to to help these people. Um not only that, it’s just people without, with without disabilities were out, I don’t know, taking the train or something, you want to watch a video, but you don’t want the sound to be on having captions. Um it’s very useful. Um, if you’re learning a new language, like I learn english like having captions, it’s very useful to understand what’s going on. So there’s many uses of why multimedia should have um, should provide an alternative to to consume that. So like a transcript

[00:45:31.14] spk_1:
transcripts, podcasts,

[00:46:42.88] spk_0:
Yeah, a transcript for podcast, for audio and visual content maybe captions. I mean they can be quite elaborate elaborate to to create, but uh, it’s it’s one of the requirements for or guidelines for accessibility. Um, I think these next two are the ones that I talked about before, but um, and they kind of go hand in hand. One is simple content. Like a lot of what I see a lot is just like people just dumping information and information on their websites. And I think it’s important, especially with, for people with cognitive disabilities are really anyone if you’re landing on a page and it’s just like blocks attacks that you have to scan through and trying to understand what’s going on. Like it’s not very usable and again it’s not accessible. So you want to make sure when you’re creating content, you really think about what message you’re trying to convey and you you formatted in a way that’s simple and use a simple language. So Try to aim for an 8th grade level and there’s some tools there that kind of help you with that and help you edit your content so it’s more digestible.

[00:46:46.16] spk_1:
Okay. 8th grade, I’m wondering if I’ve even heard lower than that. Like sixth grade? I’m not sure.

[00:46:59.68] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m not sure. I think I think there is I use a tool called Hemingway editor and I think that one even goes down even further. But yeah, I think if you get to eighth grade and it gives you a check mark.

[00:47:04.17] spk_1:
Okay. Okay Hemingway is that a free resource that listeners can use?

[00:47:08.29] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just go I think it’s just if you google Hemingway editor, it’s just like a free tool you can use online.

[00:47:18.78] spk_1:
Okay. That’s cool. Thank you. I like I like resources. All right. And you said something related to that?

[00:49:58.87] spk_0:
Yeah, So the same same thing. It’s uh your your layout. We talked about the heading simple content. All go hand in hand layout in terms of like how you’re structuring your page, you want to make sure it’s just simple, straightforward. Um I’m not going to go into more than this because it goes into more like design and things that you really can, you can really change without the help of maybe a designer or developer. So I won’t touch them more on that. But the next one I will touch on is contrast ratio and this is another one that’s quite popular when you think of accessibility, like okay, like it needs to be like the contrast needs to be enough so people can can read what’s the tax? Um Right, so one of the things you want to use is there’s plenty of tools out there if you if you just google contrast checker. Um I think one I have here in front of the web, I am dot org and it’s contrast checker. That’s I think the one I use most of the time. Um you just put in two colours and there’s just like it spits out to two different results, whether it passes or not. Um So that that’s pretty straightforward. It falls within like the template sort of but uh now more and more like with the CMS, you can you can change anything right? Like you can change the colour depending on the flexibility of the template. Um, A big one is images, so like a lot of nonprofits like to use images, um because obviously it’s an easier way to like resonate with your audience. Like you can, you get a better feel of what what they’re about. But the problem is that they like, it’s common to overlay text over there and now you’re giving your staff the ability to upload new images and then change the text. Um and then that becomes really tricky if, if it’s not a nice theme or if the image is not great. Um Now you’re having contrast issues. So like, for example, having like simple overlays, it’s like making sure your image is dark enough, so there’s some contrast um goes a long way, There’s other tips for in terms of design that you can do to overcome that but um like putting like a little background on on the actual text so it stands out more. Um But yeah, I think it’s one of the tips, let’s just be careful and the images you’re picking, making sure there’s enough contrast or and if it’s not adding some sort, if you if you have the skills just adding a bit of like a darker um rectangle overtop, like through whatever image processing software that you use

[00:50:31.26] spk_1:
and you can check this with which the well by the way, I want to just make sure everybody knows CMS is your content management system, just in case everybody questioning that, I’m not gonna put martin in jargon jail because I think CMS is pretty, pretty widely known, but if you get if you get to giardini martin then my jargon jail. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. But I’m not putting you in there for CMS. I think that’s pretty, it is widely known but just just in case there’s any listeners who don’t know CMS is your content management system and stunning. Absolutely. But be careful because you’ve transgressed, I

[00:50:34.59] spk_0:
don’t know when I go to jail, I don’t have a jail free card. So Yes, that’s right.

[00:50:40.76] spk_1:
Well I I allow um uh parole is not too hard to get.

[00:50:42.66] spk_0:
Okay. That’s good. Good to hear.

[00:50:44.42] spk_1:
What’s the contrast checker again that resource that folks can use.

[00:50:56.06] spk_0:
So it’s web uh it’s web A. I am dot org. Okay. Um and then if you go to the website it’s just under the resources as contrast checker. Yeah.

[00:51:02.36] spk_1:
Okay. And you can just google contrast checker as well.

[00:51:04.73] spk_0:
Yeah, there’s there’s probably like more than 20 different tools but

[00:51:10.96] spk_1:
martin picasa recommended one is web A I. M.

[00:51:14.66] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. They have a few other tools. That’s the one that’s

[00:51:17.37] spk_1:
it’s got the blessing. It’s got the yeah, it’s a blessing. All right.

[00:51:21.38] spk_0:
Sure. Let’s go with that. All right.

[00:51:23.36] spk_1:
So does that does that exhaust the ones that folks can do on their own without a developer? Let’s

[00:52:23.35] spk_0:
see. I think the last one is actually um it’s not really an issue but something that’s nice to have is an accessibility statement. And during my uh talk, a couple of people like this um so they’re an excessively statement is just it’s an important it’s kind of think about it like a privacy statement. But for accessibility it shows your users that you you kind of care about accessibility and about them provide some information about the accessibility of the content. What steps are you taking to to do um to make your website accessible? And then you can provide an option to to receive feedback. So if they notice any problems they can they can they can reach out and let you know because issues will come up as you create new content or things get updated, there’ll be regressions and um you kind of have to stay on top of it. Accessibility just periodically do checks to make sure that uh nothing nothing fails. So

[00:52:26.15] spk_1:
yeah, that bleeds into maintaining accessibility over time. We have a few more minutes left. What’s your advice around keeping this up?

[00:53:44.05] spk_0:
Yeah. So I think to to keep this up, but you gotta understand that again. Regressions are common if you’re constantly updating your website and upload in your content. I think having manual checks periodically, so maybe once a month you have a bit of a checklist to go through. Um It’s a good idea. I think sharing some guidelines with your team, it’s it will go a long way rather than be um reactive and unfixed changes as they come up. Like you can make sure the new content that you’re creating meets the guidelines. So just having like a little checklist of. Okay, well, these are the common things that you want, we want to stick with will go a long way and then later, like, or if your budget allows, there’s a bunch of automation tools that will like run tests for you um on your website. So if you’re a bigger site and you have thousands of articles or things like that you might want to look into into that and and and accessibility of is it important to you that it might be worth it? Um So for example, I have here um like from DEak X. So it’s like an extension um There’s also accessibility insights from Microsoft or again the same website I linked to before. Well webbing. Uh they have a wave evaluation tools that you can wait. Let

[00:54:03.84] spk_1:
it goes more at the time. By the way, I have some floor work going on. So if you hear a circular star or some hammering or drilling okay, renovations outside and no worries.

[00:54:05.58] spk_0:
If you’re a crying baby, that’s that’s my baby outside the

[00:54:08.74] spk_1:
daughter. So.

[00:54:09.46] spk_0:
Okay. I

[00:54:15.14] spk_1:
haven’t heard any. All right, okay, great. Wait, let’s tick through those um those those resources again a little slower.

[00:54:18.03] spk_0:
Yeah, sure. Um So there’s acts by deke um Let’s see if I have the I don’t really have. Yeah. So like the website is D E. Q. U. E dot com for slash X.

[00:54:34.04] spk_3:

[00:54:35.37] spk_1:

[00:54:36.11] spk_0:

[00:54:38.02] spk_1:
X C four slash X. Okay.

[00:54:40.94] spk_0:
Then the other one is again the it’s the same website I mentioned before. They have an evaluation tool. So all these are kind of like extensions you install in your browser and then you can click a button and that tells you all these all the issues on your page. So it’s kind of like a handy thing.

[00:54:56.81] spk_1:
Yeah, the other one was what? Web dot A. I am.

[00:55:01.14] spk_0:
Yeah. That’s right.

[00:55:05.64] spk_1:
Okay. And and so all right. So there’s there’s a accessibility checker there as well.

[00:55:08.01] spk_0:
Yeah. And then the last one is by Microsoft is just this one is easy. Its accessibility insights that I owe.

[00:55:24.84] spk_1:
Okay, accessibility insights dot io Yeah. Alright. We like free tools like free totally bring this, bring this uh

[00:55:45.94] spk_0:
and I guess I’ll do one more. Um There’s a Khan Academy has one that is quite friendly. I don’t I mean I like it, it’s just like a little tool that you add to your bookmark and then whenever you go to a website you just click on that and it creates like a little pop up. Um So if you google just con economy and it’s uh it’s T. O. T. A. 11 Y.

[00:55:49.66] spk_1:
Way Con con K. H. A. N.

[00:55:54.82] spk_0:
Yeah akademi

[00:55:56.66] spk_1:
Khan Academy. Yeah.

[00:55:58.49] spk_0:
And then the tool is it’s T. O. T. A. 11 Y.

[00:56:03.53] spk_1:
T. O. T. A. 11 Y.

[00:56:05.67] spk_0:
Yeah so I think I don’t have an actual you’re all for it but it’s said to I use. Okay, so we can find

[00:57:29.43] spk_1:
an account academies. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right, thank you for those uh free resources. I like those. We’re gonna leave it there, martin. All right, okay. Cool. Well thank you for having me my pleasure. He’s martin to CASA President abound state software. Thank you again martin and thank you for being with 20 martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21. Ntc the 2021 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c O next week. First generation wealth with Esther choi If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, yeah, thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty You with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for April 12, 2019: Be Accessible & Go Bilingual

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Hey. Oh, hi there. Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of Macro Stone Mia if I had to say that you missed today’s show Be accessible. Inclusive website design that builds in accessibility helps everyone, not only those with disabilities, and it helps you with the CEO. Our panel uses the example of the MacArthur Foundation site Rebuild their James Kinzer from the MacArthur Foundation and Cindy Roland with Web aim Go bilingual Oliver Delgado helps you navigate the bilingual balance in print, social and on your site as we discuss opportunities and challenges. He’s from Levitt Pavilion, Los Angeles, on Tony’s Take two Grieving in your plant e-giving. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service, fund-raising Data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner c. P. A’s guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com But tell US Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy Text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine here is be accessible from the nineteen ntcdinosaur twenty nineteen non-profit Technology conference. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of nineteen NTC. You know what that is tonight? Twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference Way are in the convention center in Portland, Oregon, and this interview, Like all of ours at nineteen NTC is brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact With Me are James Kinzer is senior associate for digital communications at the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and Cindy Roland. She’s director of Web AIM at Utah State University. James Cindy. Welcome. Welcome to non-profit radio. With pleasure. Thank you, Cindy. What is Web aim? So Webb started in nineteen ninety nine. Two. Actually, we started with federal funding to assist folks in higher education with Web accessibility. We’ve since grown were now working in literally every sector on helping Web developers, Web designers and content creators will make their content accessible for individuals with disabilities. OK, OK, and James, I I hope I can get this right. That MacArthur Foundation seeks a more just verdant and peaceful world was full world. Thank you I’m a big NPR listener. What do you do specifically at senior associate with digital communication? What does that mean? That the foundation. Right. So my primary role is to manage content on the Web site and Tio manage over email communications, But it also involves a lot of project management. And so one of the largest projects that I managed recently is the complete redesign of our website. Look at this wonderful transition. Yeah, to redesign of the website to include accessibility. Exactly. Okay. Okay. And you, uh, you built in some grantee grantee encouragement there, too. With guides. Is that right? We’re in the process of developing developing that with the wedding team. Currently? Yeah, we’LL get to that. Okay, good. If I forget, remind me. Okay, Because the fact that you’re trickling it down it didn’t It doesn’t stop with the foundation, But you’re encouraging your grantees to do the same. Or at least a attempt. Yeah, exactly. Conscious are our learning. You’re so great and valuable. We recognized that it would be so stingy for just for us to keep that to ourselves. We wanted to make sure we were sharing that with the greater population And, of course, it doesn’t just stop with MacArthur grantees this booklet. Once it’s done, it ,’LL be available. Really, Teo. Anyone in, well, anyone? But certainly we envision that it’s going to be of use to you lots and lots non-profits non-profits. Cindy. Why is accessible design important form or with the wider population than those who need accessible sites? Right? Well, you know, and you you are hitting on a really important piece, which is, of course, everyone’s going to agree that we make content accessible to everyone, including those with disabilities, because that’s just the right thing to do. You know, anyone who has a moral core isn’t going to purposely exclude a segment of the population. But there are lots of reasons that you would develop accessibly just for typical users on DH. I won’t even go into as we all age. We all acquire disabilities, but we all typically in our lifetime have some accidental disabilities. Whether it is, I break my arm. I dropped my mouse and it busts into hundred pieces. I have, you know, some kind of ah temporary vision issue that needs, you know, Cem correction and takes a little bit time so accessible design ends up by being hopeful for everyone. It’s helpful on mobile devices. It’s helpful in virtually, you know, every platform. So those folks that are developing accessibly are not only helping those with disabilities, but they’re helping everyone. Okay, is there also an sio advantage? If we have to make it, bring it down to such a basic level, right? Which I admit. But I’m the one asking questions. You know, they’re they’re they’re also there is all right, So you know there’s there. We all know that it’s, you know, secret sauce in the background there as to how the the CEO’s air really pulled together. But those sites that are accessible end up by being, you know well, it makes sense because you’re able to call through all of the text information, and it’s able Teo, get at things that you might be presenting visually. So let’s say you have an image or you have a chart that you’re providing to visual users. If you have alternative text or you have some description, the search engines air ableto look at that text and be able to index that properly so it does end up by helping fun folks find your content. Okay. At the MacArthur Foundation, James, what raised the consciousness that in your redesign you needed to consider accessibility? Yeah, So we had a CZ. Part of our regular development process is worked with a developer to do just kind of an ad hoc scan on accessibility for the website. And then about five years ago, with new leadership of the foundation, there was a real turning point in our approach to grantmaking and s. So the the number of grantmaking areas was reduced down to a more focused number and there was a greater sense of urgency brought to the work. And it was at that time we were also looking at, um, asking ourselves the question Are we really living are our tagline Are we living this commitment to be in a I’m a more just, verdant and peaceful world? Were we truly being just if we were not giving access to everybody to the information on our website? It’s a very introspective discussion that that someone raised Yeah, that, uh, you know, that takes a lot of courage to consider that we may not be living up to our our own tagline, right? Right. So essentially, once that question was answered, way had our marching orders from from leadership, and it was something that I was already aware of and passionate about. And so it just kind of came together really beautifully. Acquaint us with the with the start of the process. How does the accessibility fit into an overall redesigned right? So for us, we actually worked with the Web AIM team to do a scan of our sight. I think that we gave them maybe twenty, twenty to twenty five pages to review. And from that review they created a report. And that report identified all of the areas that were not in compliance with accessibility and essentially ranks them in priority order. And so made it really easy for us to go to the designers and say, Hey, we’ve got all of these issues, These air, the scaled need for each one of them. Let’s incorporate that into the new pages as we design them. Cindy A. Z do that kind of ah evaluation. Where are the standards? But how do we know where they are? Is our cottage is codified somewhere? It absolutely is. So the the World Wide Web consortium that W three c has Web accessibility initiative w ay, I’m going into alphabet soup. No way. Have jargon jail on radio. Okay, okay. Transgress. I will not. So they created the web content, accessibility guidelines and I’m going to throw another one at you. It’s called Would CAG. Right now they’re at version two point. Oh, So you confined the wood. CAG died. Guidelines, Web content, accessibility, eye lines to point out yet so Google it it’LL provide all the technical standards. Therefore principles perceivable, operable, understandable and robust. Each of those principles has a set of essentially success criteria so that you know that you’re meeting what? That what that is. So let me just throw out example so that all content is perceivable. So let’s say that I don’t have vision. How am I going to perceive that content? Well, I’m probably using a screen reader to read the the What’s behind what it is that we see. So if a developer does not put alternative Tex, there’s no way for me to extract the content of that. Let’s say I’m deaf and you’ve got a video. How am I going to perceive that content well. If you have captions that I’m able to get that content, so just very simple things like that. Now you know somewhere a little more complex. It’s not way used to say that accessibility is simple, but as the Web has developed and matured, things are more complicated. But it’s still something that can be achieved when you agree. James. Definitely it’s time for a break. Pursuant. The Art of First Impressions. How to combine Strategy, analytics and creative to captivate new donors and keep them coming back that is, there a book on donor acquisition. They want you to read it. Check it out. Um, helps you make a smashing first impression with donors. You will find that the listener landing page tony dot m a slash Pursuant capital P for please. You know that Let’s do the live. Listen, love. Let’s I bumped it up. It’s accelerate because my heart’s bursting with love for the live listeners. So it’s going out now. Live love to you. If you are with us, the love goes out. Like I said, it’s Sze being redundant, right? Okay, enough said live love tto listeners. We’re listening now and to those listening by podcast pleasantries to you, the vast majority of our audience so glad that you were with us whatever time. Whatever device, however, non-profit radio fits into your schedule binge or week after week pleasantries to you. Let’s continue with James Kinzer and Cindy Roland. How do we work our way into it? So that the MacArthur Foundation they asked you to evaluate twenty five pages or so and you applied the standards right? Is that something that buy-in organise that small and midsize shop could do on their own? Absolute thing, finding guidelines or the guidelines a kind of technical and the guidelines air absolutely technical. So if you’re not a technical person, you you may go read them, and your eyeballs may spend around head. However, there are lots of places that you can go, I think even just starting understanding. There are lots of introductions to have accessibility. Web dot org’s certainly has one of those. There are others as well on DH. There are tools that are available, of course. Webb has one that’s it’s free for folks to use and other people have to. So I’m not trying to just, you know, talk R R R But if someone were to go to wave and that’s w A v e wave dot web dot org’s, they’d be able to put in a whirl and wave will check for them where they are with the standards now about Yeah, that’s all it takes just Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah So here’s the rub. Only about twenty five or thirty percent of the errors Khun B. Programmatically detected by any look any tool, not just ours. Any of them the rest of them need. They require a human determination of whether or not it meets the guidelines so you could get started. Wave dot web dot or dot org’s absolutely and you know, thie. Other thing that I’m goingto mention about wave is as you look at the errors it and we describe, you know what the what The area is, why it’s important, how you can fix it. And there’s even links to little tutorials that go further in depth about that whole thing. So, to be honest, Wave is used an awful lot by developers and designers as a tool to learn about what it is that they need to be doing Okay, James, what are what are some lessons that some takeaway is that you you can share from the from this redesign? Yeah. I think a really great example of, uh, before and after a people meaning accessibility was the grant search page on our website. When we originally we’re looking at it, it was just the results were all just in a long list, and they were really wide columns of a text. So each line was really long. And as we were going through the redesign process that we recognize that this wasn’t optimized for people with cognitive disabilities. And so what we did is we shorted shortened each entry. What? I’m sorry. What’s the What’s the deficit that that they have that prevents them from reading are seeing longlines? Yeah. What is that? Specifically very questions. So a person with cognitive disabilities, the longer the line of text, the greater the chance. By the time they get to the end of that sentence, they will have forgotten what they read at the beginning. And so, by shortening the line lines, what that means is that they can increase. Is there there retention? Okay. And I will say also, for many folks that are struggling with literacy issues, that notion of them visually wrapping back around if it’s really long, then there they have to visually scan back to the leg left next to the next line. And that can become visually a difficult task, even though it’s not a visual problem problem. But it’s a visual processing problem. OK, alright, So thats the benefit in the redesign was that we took that knowledge. We sat down with the designers, came up with the new layout and moved things into more of a grid pattern. And so what it meant is that the lion lengths were shorter. But then also for typically sighted people, it meant that they could actually see more information on the page but scrolling wherever they’re scroll across. Exactly. So So this is a really great example of how we were addressing accessibility for for one audience. But then it it still had a really significant benefit for everyone else. Yeah, excellent. OK, Tio Cindy’s point earlier about the benefit for all rank. I love that. What else? You got? Another take away. What else have you learned from this whole thing? How long did this take, Let’s say, from the time that you asked Web aim to do the evaluation of twenty five pages, Tio, you felt like okay. I mean, website is never completed. I realize that, but you know, that button eyes a project manager, But until the point where you sat back and said, OK, we’ve pretty much where where I wanted to be back then, right? How long was that time? It was a three year process. Okay, Now MacArthur’s gotta have an enormous mean tens of thousands of pages. I cite you. Remember the number? I think there are a hundred. Two hundred thousand. Okay, but it’s a long front. Yeah, yeah. Okay, but smaller sites not going. I’m not going to be a daunting right. Okay, so another. Please. Another another. I’m trying to think of one of the other pages that we were working on. So one of the other, the significant takeaways is that start wherever you can like before. Five years ago, I really knew very little about accessibility, and I reached out. I took a workshop and overtime working with the designers. I learned a lot more about it. So I think using what resources are available to you. TTO learn is super important. I think it graded another example or take away from the site. Is that because something is a, uh, wait, Just have to make sure that everything that we’re seeing on the side of a CZ typically sighted people is truly consumable buy-in e other person that has a disability. And so when I’m formatting content now, I’m thinking about that. I’m making sure that, uh, was that descriptions that I put in for the photos. Are they going to be clear? Are they in the right format? Uh, it’s it’s, uh, it’s It’s not just a developer issue. It’s a content management meant issue. So I take a lot of responsibility for making sure that, as I’m formatting, that content that that I am formatting with accessibility of mind. And I’d love to just add another. Although I don’t know that this is MacArthur’s experience and you could you could certainly mentioned it is, But I think it’s so critical for folks to understand that web accessibility is not a one and done that. It has to be baked in. You know, you’d mention that you’re never really done with the website. Well, to the extent that accessibility is then part of baked into that process by by virtue of that, you’re never done with accessibility either. One of the things that we see over and over and over again, people will come to us. We’LL work with them. The folks that are on that team get it, they make those changes. But then those folks leave. They go someplace else. And the accessibility problems creep back in because, organizationally, they haven’t shifted the culture. They haven’t created a workflow that is going to sustain accessibility, even at the level of how their purchasing, you know, products, you know, widgets, naps and all that. Are they even asking the question if we buy X and embedded in our site? Is that accessible? How do we, uh, create a cultural change? Yeah, it’s t institutionally, the conscious of accessibility. So that has turned over occurs. It’s not lost weight. What do we do? Well, I think first and foremost you gotta start with a commitment from the top. I mean, if you don’t have those you know, top executives saying in our shop this is something we value and This is something we’re going to monitor every year, every two years, every whatever. We’re going to have a regular way that we look at this and it’s going to be systematic if you don’t do other things that will help sustain it. So, for example, in HR, why would it be that for technical people you wouldn’t routinely put into your job descriptions when you’re hiring that knowledge and skills of Web accessibility is, if not required, at least preferred, because that sends a message out to the people that want to have these jobs. Oh, well, apparently, this is a skill set that I need to acquire. How about purchasing? You know, if if you’re if you’re you’re webber, your other digital materials do rely a lot on the work of others. Let’s say it’s templates. Let’s say it, you know, whatever it happens to be, maybe it’s Ah, um uh, you know Cem donor-centric where you’re using, you know, how is it that you are checking to see the accessibility of the easy way to start is to ask the vendor to make a declaration of how it is that they conform to the current standards of accessibility. There is a thing called and sorry. Here we go again, as long as you define okay, as long as you tell the veep at the voluntary product accessibility template or in version two point Oh, now so don’t accept anyone that sends you a one point no document, but it’s very common to act in your in your requests and your solicitations say that you’re going to require that what you procure, what you purchase or acquire conforms toe tag, too double double and that the vendor either submit a V pat or some other kind of declaration. Or sometimes, folks, we’re just going right to give us a third party. A report of where where you stand with accessibility. Now, all is not lost if the vendor has some problems. It’s not that you don’t by the product you want, but you have a negotiation about what’s your roadmap for accessibility. If if we put money down, how long will it be in your development process before weakening exact that art that the stuff we’re hosting is going to be accessible, You know, it’s three three months of its three years, you know that may give you pause. Okay, okay. Very good. Uh, I’m gonna go back and underscore something that that Cindy mentioned earlier and that that’s leadership. Energy is welcome. So? So I just feel like it’s important to underscore that that that getting buy-in from leadership makes this process infinitely more simple, like it would be with anything and any significant initiative. Right? And And I think the turning point for the MacArthur Foundation was truly that that moment where we were looking at our tagline like I mentioned before. Ah, and for for people who are organizations that are concerned about how do I get buy-in? I think that that’s the easiest way at a mission driven organization is to look at that tack line and say, How does this pair with accessibility? And how can we, uh, make that argument? What? What case would you bring to your CEO? When you are, your consciousness is raised. Uh, how do you How do you raise? But he raised the issue up above. Yeah, I think that, uh, once I were educated Ah, a little bit more on it. I would go to leadership and and say, Look, this is this is kind of like Rex of our presentation later today is you know, it’s not just addressing accessibility for people with disabilities. It’s truly it’s truly improving for everyone, for everyone, right? And it’s our It’s embodied in our mission way just haven’t been conscious, right of of how our mission intersects with accessibility. Right? So it’s just making those two points connect. Okay. Okay, um, Cindy’s Web team did a evaluation of one hundred one hundred sites. Yeah, we were just We were just doing a quick little scan of Of where the non-profit world is in terms of accessibility. How did you pick one hundred? What we did is we went to a website top non-profits, and they had a lovely little list of the top one hundred non-profits. And of course, you know what does top mean, right? You know, But we took their list is probably names that we would roll recognize for one reason or another by budget or employees. Eyes are exactly yeah, annual fund-raising. Whatever. Okay. And and for me, the purpose was just to just to get a sense of what’s happening. So we just landed on the home page of each of those now the rationale is that, you know, as we well know, home pages get the most attention home pages get the most. Is that still true? Now, a lot of times I’ve had guests say that not to be overly focused on your home page because a lot of people coming in directly looking for the content that’s buried in your side, your sight because of because of a link that they follow, right? So for those people that have a direct link, you’re absolutely right. But if somebody doesn’t know the organisation, it doesn’t know the content that they want. How are they going to get in? They’re going to get in through your friends. They’re explored. So they’ve heard your name and they want to, right? Exactly. Exactly. So let’s say I’m a, you know, a family. And I’m feeling particularly philanthropic. I’m going to be I’m gonna be rooting around here looking at you know, where might I want to, you know, engage in sin, flandez. Okay, so we’re gonna learn about. So we went in and we we ran the wave on one hundred pages and do so when you’re when you’re back in Utah State. Utah State University. Yeah, this. So do you all do away and there are there six of you? I made it that way. I wish we didn’t run the way. Wave Runner. Okay. Yeah, You don’t You’re not doing that at heart. And I will take it on. Okay. Okay. Well, we’ll do that. Bring that back back east from here. It’s back. He’s okay. Based in New York. So it’s strange to say he’s for Utah. Okay. Wey came at us dahna aggression. We came out up from his acronym, But you’re right. We should be thinking about into a wave. Think maybe every Friday. That’s good. Alright, Anything. So we were running it through the way and way were only looking at those items that were again programmatically detectable. So how can the machine that hogan this after her to say that? Only thirty percent you said? Oh, yeah. Isn’t twenty five or thirty men are right in that vision. Indestructible Because we knew he didn’t have the time to do, you know, an in depth, blah, blah, blah. So again, we’re not looking at accessibility. What we’re looking at are errors, problems. That’s thes air. This is the low hanging fruit. This is the stuff that if you’re considering accessibility, you’re probably going to be nailing these things, right? Okay, because the things that are harder, those things that require human interaction and detective in deduction sadly, of the hundred, there were only three pages that didn’t have programmatically detectable arika cloudgood. So ninety seven percent of that sample and again, we don’t know to what extent that generalizes to the rest of the pages blah, blah, blah. But these are big organizations. These are, however measured these are And and I mean my heart just sunk because I thought, if there is ever if there’s ever a sector of our society that should be aware of this and working towards this, this should be the non-profit world. These air, the folks that are you know, the the standard carriers for lots of ethical causes and equity and rights of people with disabilities is certainly one of one of those. So I’m very sad to report that the data are that bad and we we are going to follow up, and we may end up by doing a much larger look at non-profits, not just home pages, but you know, scanning. You know, main domains and looking at thousands of pages, you probably need some funding for that. Well, you know, it’s always it’s always very helpful. If there’s anyone out there that would like to sponsor a deep look into this, give me a holler, OK? Our audiences, non-profits. Yeah, I’m not I’m not sure, but, uh, okay. Noble noble cause and yeah, disappointing. But I will say the stuff that work, the stuff that we did, you know, that was just I found internally little pot of money. We just did stuff We do stuff like that out of, you know, anyway, because it’s just part of it’s part of our mission to make sure that we’re getting information out about the state of accessibility. Does Webb aimed Is there a way I am? Stand for something? Well, it it really does. It’s the The initial project back in nineteen ninety nine was keeping Web accessibility in mind. So we have the web. Aye, aye. Accessibility in mind. Okay. And that’s the one thing we want. We want folks to keep a web accessibility in mind as they’re considering their content as they’re developing design frameworks. is They’re thinking about their coding on all levels. So this is all well, initially, consciousness raising way. Need to be aware, APS and then we can go toe wave dot web, a web dot organ, and we can begin their right. James, we got, like, thirty seconds, so I’m gonna give you the the wrap up. What would you like to leave people with? Yeah. Ah, a few things. I think the first one is that that accessibility applies to everybody and, uh, take the opportunity to learn about it. To do some research, to take a workshop, started any level on and then you can begin addressing it in many different ways. There there are small steps, medium steps, deep involved, development steps. So, really, it’s it’s it’s completely pardon of fun accessible to everybody. He is James Kinzer, senior associate senior associate, the digital Communications at the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation on DH. She is Cindy Rolling, director of Web aim at Utah State University. James, Wendy, Thanks so much. Thank you, Cindy. I’m sorry, but, uh, you’re listening to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of nineteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. Like all our interviews here. This one is brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks so much for being with us. We need to take a break. Wagner, CPS. They’ve got a free webinar coming up. It’s on April sixteenth. Tips and tricks for your nine ninety. The best part of this is using your nine ninety as a marketing tool to do some PR for you in various sections, including Narrative, but they’re going to talk about other uses for your nine ninety. It regarded regarding PR and promo. Okay, because it’s so widely read, it’s so widely available. Ah, if you can’t watch the live, you can watch the archive of their webinar weather cps dot com Click seminars, then Goto April. Now, time for Tony. Take two grieving part of your plan to giving program. As I was grieving, my well still am. My father in law’s death came very sudden in Ah, late March, and, um, it occurred to me that grieving is part of your plan e-giving program. And that happens when relatives who contact you because a donor to your organization has died and so you can’t expect those relatives to be at their best. UM, they’re going to be a little gonna be on edge. You know it’s there, not goingto be contacting you the day after the death, or even probably within a week. But when they do, they’re still grieving and you know it’s it’s likely to be a spouse or a child that’s the most common s. So it’s it’s someone close. And when it happens, you wantto handle them appropriately and keep things simple for them have a simple process to make them jump through hoops. I’ve got a bunch of ideas on managing and working with the grieving relatives when you do hear from them in my video, and that is at twenty martignetti dot com. Now let’s go to Oliver Delgado, also from the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference, and this is go bi lingual. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of nineteen ninety si. That’s the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. We are in the Convention Center, Portland, Oregon, and this interview, like all our nineteen NTC interviews, is sponsored by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact with me now is Oliver Delgado. He is director of marketing and communications at Levitt Pavilion, Los Angeles. Oliver, Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. My pleasure. It’s great to be here in Portland’s Great to be here with you. I agree with you and, well, not that it’s great to be here with me, but I agree that it is fun to be important. Important is a wonderful city. It’s my first time here, so I’m taking it all and so much to see. And really, in the short amount of time I see a lot of drink through, it’s started Edible Food and Drink City. I started last night. I got very lucky. There’s an amazing restaurant in my hotel, and food was fantastic. Where was the food? It’s Ah, guess. Contemporary Mexican American fusion. Okay, Yeah. Super cool Down in the Pearl District, I went Tio when I first got here first night I went Teo, I’ve always heard that Israeli food is very good. I want a place called shoot Shalom Y’All y’all like y’All I love come over. Yeah, yeah, that’s not a Finnish border. Zoho are Israeli word. It’s your long Y’All Yeah, was X there have to one in the north east, their one southeast and southwest. I think it’s funny you mention that actually just saw this really cool report on Israeli food and considering that’s a fairly recent kind of evolution and food, considering the history behind the country and how it’s really a fusion of so many different regions. And so they’re taking so many different steps to just create an identity for it. Which means the food is just amazing. So I’d love to baby check it out if you recommend it. Although I do. I had a roasted eggplant, which was outstanding. Their home is their to bully both very oath. Oh, a light, a light and tasty falafel. Very nice. Dunaj dahna like a dark brown. Not a golden battle darker brown. That was incredible. You had me at recommend Shalom. Y’All All right, but we’re here to talk about sabelo Espanol. That’s right. Expand your reach and impact by going bilingual. Why should we? What if we’re not serving a non-profit? We’re not serving. Ah ah, Spanish community, Spanish speaking or Mexican speaking community. Why should we, uh, should we abila spaniel sure this is really specific to Los Angeles, and I think for us going bilingual has to do a lot with sustainability on and being able to reach more people in an organic way, and it’s not limited. I think Spanish for us is the case study. It’s the example. But I think if you’re living in a major metropolitan city or not, we see that there’s migration patterns across the country from all parts of the world. So it may not be Spanish. It could be Russian. It could be Chinese. It could be Hindi. It could be Farsi. There always be theirs. There’s probably a secondary language being spoken in certain communities and cities across the country. So when you look at those demographics and you look at those shifts and statistics, how do you tap into those alternative language and communities essentially with your organization? If the impact or the goal is to be sustainable, to be far reaching toe have longevity. It’s about reinvention. It’s about adapting. It’s about finding different ways to use different tools to reach people. So be aware of the demographics in in the area that you are serving absolutely and be responsive? Absolutely. And I think just speaking factually, the US eventually will be a minority majority country. So it’s twenty, twenty, twenty five, I believe so. I believe by twenty twenty five. So you know, we’re at twenty nineteen, and it gives you a really good idea, especially a lot of organizations who are toying with the idea of employing a secondary language or even a third of how to start doing it connecting with communities. And that’s what I’LL be talking about today is the multi layered approach from really identifying a language to identify your audience. Is your media lists your brochures or collateral? The programming, the PR, the communications of community relations, your digital presence? Everything has to be intertwined so that your message, or rather, your intent, has has legs. How do we make this case to leadership before we get there? Buy-in. Before we can go ahead, it’s so we can start spending money. Sure, it’s looking at your, especially from a fund-raising point of view. Are you maximizing what you’re able to raise when you have an event when you have a gala? If you have, if its an electronic of it? A letter appeal for end of your donations or a seasonal campaign. Uh, whatever our whichever mechanisms you used to fund-raising Are you maximizing its potential? Right? And I think that’s the lens that we look at. Eleven l. A. It’s not only the fund-raising but the friendraising, because our impact is creating, and our intent is creating stronger, more connected communities through the yards, and it’s kind of a dual approach. We also need to be ever support the yards fiscally for us to be able to get our mission. So it’s a little more about what Levitt Pavilion does. Sure, absolutely. Levitt Pavilion Los Angeles is It’s part of a national Levitt network, and Levin Foundation does incredible work in twenty six cities across the country, with the mission of creating stronger, more connected communities through the arts and specifically free live music. So throughout the country, you’LL see cities and towns come alive every single summer, respectively, between twenty five and fifty concerts. Every Levitt pavilion that’s designated as a permanent pavilion has the task. And really, though these air structures, these air structures, Yeah, absolutely. And so we’re all tasked with creating an offering fifty free concerts every single summer, and we do so by away of a public private partnership where we partner with the city departments in the respective city that were in what the foundation helps provide some seed money. But also the most important piece is getting the community buy-in because at the end of the day, if you don’t have the commuters support for something that is intended to serve them, what’s the point? So what’s incredible about Levin Potvin Los Angeles, is that it came at such an incredible time in MacArthur Park, which is a historic park in Los Angeles. Jimmy Webb dahna Summer, Right? So they were talking about this epic park that was once the premiere vacation oasis. The Shabelle is a of Los Angeles, and over the years, over the course of one hundred years of transition from being an incredibly wealthy neighborhood to one that then became a creative enclave, really boho chic, think Lower East Side Manhattan in the seventies and eighties and then continues in transition as resource is stopped coming to the neighborhood, especially city services. You know the migration patterns, especially as the civil wars in Central America really left, warn Torrente lands and people seeking refuge, and we saw an influx of Central American refugees into this specific neighborhood. But it happened so quickly that the density literally just expanded within maybe a few years, to the point where the neighborhood, because it was such a wealthy enclave, the sing the one single family homes had to be slapped together and carved into multiple family. When and you can imagine what that looks like, right, it’s, you know. And then we saw this very specific example. MacArthur Park went from the shop Elyse Tomb or oven, Ellis Island. And it’s incredible to know that Levitt Pavilion now and where we are. We are going into a thirteenth season we launch in two thousand seven in MacArthur Park. We have reached about five hundred thousand people coming through this place. So it’s we’re moving the needle, and it’s about exploring different ways to do so. Let’s talk about some of the challenges of doing bilingualism or trilingual is you said. You know, it could be depending on your demographics. What are some of the obstacles we’re gonna have to overcome? Sure, I think some of the obstacles, I think, just from a logistical point of view, it’s the long term investment is making sure that shouldn’t organization, especially at non-profit, commit to a plan of incorporating a second language into their marketing. And as part of their brand identity is identifying, Do they want to build an in house team to manage this every day and what that looks like? Or do you outsource it? And is it more of a campaign kind of a seasonal initiative? But the issues you run into that is continuity. When you have different hands kind of touching, OH, are influencing or molding the ingredients, you may get different results. What are some of these ingredients were talking about? You don’t meddle with different communications channels. So all the different, especially the communication channels, because everything has to be interlinked from your E blast from your website to your social tio, literally your printed materials, your hyre rabbis, radio, TV billboard. Everything has to be a cohesive marketing unit, even down to the programme in the community relations, right the way we conduct those meetings and identify and select and create a lineup, it’s creating a path for all of that to be connected through a single lens, you got to take a break. Tell us it’s the long stream of passive revenue because you get fifty percent of the fee. When cos you refer process their credit and debit card transactions through Tello’s, check out the video, then refer companies to the video if they’re still interested. They found the video interesting, then asked if they would consider making the switch and then you contact, Tell us and put the two of them together. It’s all in the video at the listener landing page at tony dot m a slash tony. Tell us for that long stream of passive revenue. Now back to Oliver Delgado. There’s gotta be more to this. I’m sure they’re then then just the language. You have to. You have to understand the culture of the the needs, the frustrations of the people in the community that you’re now trying to reach out to. It’s more than just speaking their language. Correct. You need to understand what what they’re about. Absolutely, and that is really That was the foundation of what Levitt Pavilion sought to do, and that’s create organic ties in the community. And that’s the first already start faith communities really everywhere, anywhere where the doors opened. So for us it was because of MacArthur Park, in the way that it’s structured it, surrounded by schools, churches, neighborhood organizations and businesses. It’s a very dense neighborhood. You were talking about eighty two hundred thousand people in about six square miles, right? So we’re talking about almost like the density of Manhattan, right? So I think that made it easy for us and being able to reach more people quickly. But also, it means that we have three more strategic and how you developed that plan, right? So the schools, the faith based organizations, you touch them all. You have to be able to be open, open, open toe, learning open to learning. And really, you know, the cultural nuances Just because, you know, blind ex culture is so vibrantly divers in itself, you know, from Mexico to Central America, Teo, even South America, the language changes so much that you have to be adaptable and be mindful that, you know, different words mean different things in different countries. So employing you know, the formality informal, the presentation. But ultimately is the trust it going in with an open heart and open arms so that people understand that it’s a dialogue not so much a speech critical. Otherwise, you’re not gonna build trust. Correct. You’LL have a meeting and xero and nothing correct, I think from it. So for Levitt Pavilion, Los Angeles one of our fundamental tools really is our Community Advisory Council. And this is a coalition comprise of principles residents, business owners, different organization and community leaders that acted one as our sound board for potential sponsors, for just bouncing ideas on artist to come to the stage, but also to get their eyes and ears on the ground learn from them directly. What’s happening in the neighborhood that we should be mindful of should be reflective love. So you can invite community leaders in the community you’re trying to approach to an advisory committee and say, You know, this is not a not a pro forma counsel. We really want your want your input. We want your advice. That’s right. We yes, we do want your connections also correct. We need them to reach the community that you’re now serving correct, and then for us, it’s about creating the space. And so everyone has a seat at the table. Yeah. Okay. You, uh, you planning talking something about developing your marketing lists? That’s right. Best practices for developing marketing list? Sure, Absolutely. So for eleven Pavilion, Los Angeles, again, we develop our English language baseless, which means that everyone on that list has opted in when they signed on up for a concert from ours weepie to get reminders of certain shows they had option of being about to receive information in English or in Spanish. So once we get that information, they’re actually collated in that way. So the English sign ups go to one lesson in Spanish sign ups go to another, and then we target those specific list with specific language newsletters. And so that way nothing is cut out. Nothing is impacting away where you’re lessening the content or, you know, undercutting it you’re presenting. If it’s for the weekend of concerts, is providing a glimpse of what’s to come. But also who are the community partners who are the sponsors who are the different? What are the different pieces? Making that specific show so unique? So for us is being able to deliver that message in a timely way, but also easy to follow. Easy to read, as the kids say, making a very chill right, making it approachable. I’m just easy to digest. OK, anything else but best practice Wai’s best practices. I mean, I have a whole list. It just depends on how you sometime. Absolutely so. If we were to look at labbate putting Los Angeles we, the first thing we had to do is identify our audiences. And so we know that we had the task of incorporating and reaching the local community of West Lake. But then, looking at what makes our work possible. And that’s then we have our sponsors, our community partners, thie elected officials, kind of the periphery supporting cast that plays a crucial role. So identifying those audiences that helps us figure out how we present our information. From there, it was creating, enduring in on. We’re going to present our secondary language in an informal way or the informal Spanish, right? So you, you know, quick Spanish lesson. If you haven’t reverses the form, correct, you have the to form and then you have those dead form, which can be as different as a swimsuit versus a power suit. And that’s how different the communication ring communication can come across. So for us, we’re identifying that informal old home and then identifying the in house team. So that’s myself and a couple of associates where we create every single day opportunities for our bilingual approach to have legs. So through our social writing, different mechanisms to make sure that that’s observed. Um, you can’t you can’t outsource. This is you mentioned earlier like you can outsource it on what kind of what kind of consultant freelance or are you looking for? Well, we don’t because I’m not, you know? Yeah, sure, would one. What would one would be looking for? Absolutely. I think the aforementioned when you figure out your audiences and you figure out what tone you want to take is finding people who specialize in that specific thing in that culture and that culture, because ultimately this person is without you knowing or wanting is your surrogate right in the communities in just written and spoken word. So it’s how do you essentially create this opportunity for someone to learn your voice or create your voice in a way that’s organic to you and is possible for you to continue past their involvement with organization on a consultant basis. So again it’s created for digital presence. For us is massive because that’s the way that we reach more people. So the website we have when you go to our website, you have the ability of hovering and clicking on the English side to get all the information in English and then hovering over to the other side of cooking the Spanish button. Everything goes into Spanish, but the most crucial thing and this goes back to the house human capital. And that’s when you click over to the Spanish. The’s are all handwritten translations were not running it through a filter. It’s not a plug Google translate. Now Google translate these air hand rin translations because we want to present the same level of enthusiastic, community oriented and accessible information the way we do in English. Same way in Spanish. Okay, Yeah, And so that weaves into social media that we into the electron newsletters. It goes into the brochures or collateral, your swag, your videos, your programming, which is fundamental, right? Yeah, let’s talk about some events. So live events. How do you make those bilingual? Absolutely. So what’s really cool about labbate Pope in Los Angeles again, we we’ve bilingual that that bilingual asking to everything we do. So when you come onto the Levitt Lawn, you’LL see a massive led wall, a Jumbotron, if you will, and it displays real time information from set list to the vendors selling food or merchandise document partners. Any special announcements or recognitions all is per presented visually in English and Spanish, right? So there’s that step. And then there’s another layer, which is really cool is that we have emcees. Every show was the last summer, was emceed by a bilingual professional from local influencers. Podcast Media photo there. So they’re speaking in both. So they speak both languages. They’LL say two or three sentences in English, and then they’LL say it in Spanish. That’s correct. And so and this emcee not only helps narrow rate the experience for level, especially for new comers, new visitors, but it helps really set the tone of the excitement so that what is written can now have an auditory base and support, and so from commercials, as we call them to prompts from even two no smoking and picking up trash or even promised to donate on venmo or through our buckets. It’s providing that accessibility both in English and Spanish. Our sign Ege Everything is in English and Spanish in case it should the led well go out Should the sound go out and emcees can’t speak, we actually have actual signs that display the same information. And then when it goes to our actual advertising, which is placed beyond you know, our neighborhood and in Westlake and goes across the city very targeted for certain neighborhoods so that we funnel in and really reach demographics you’LL see that the billboards are staggered you’LL see English and Spanish side by side and you’LL see it for Rose and Rose and the whole point there is again presenting information at once, especially considering that you have short amount of time. Someone’s driving down the street is that you have seconds and his you know, we may have a little more time with her at a red light. Ah, and our goal there is hopefully by the end of that, you probably expanded your Spanish vocabulary. But at minimum, you know that there are fifty free concerts coming to MacArthur Park from June first two September first twenty nineteen. Time for our last break text to give you diversify your revenue by adding mobile giving. It’s not only for disasters, it’s not only for small dollar donations, it’s not on ly through the phone bill. It does not need to be through the phone bill. There are different ways of doing it that can make the donations larger. You could find out all about what text to give. Does ah eliminate some of the misconceptions you may have all by texting NPR to four four, four nine nine nine. We’ve got several more minutes for go Bi lingual. We still have some time left together. What? Absolutely, What else you want to talk about? Best, Maybe more. Best practices around the list building the membership. I’m sorry, the marketing marketing lists? Absolutely no. So I think what? Ah, very big piece, I think, fundamentally is the fund-raising. I think that’s a lens that we’re also in a new venture for us in the Spanish speaking community because we haven’t seen a culture of philanthropy and this specific neighborhood, because again we mentioned its transition, and it’s currently ah, low income community. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t create it. It just means that you make it more accessible, Easier to tap into or participate so means lower dollar fundraisers, but nonetheless, on a continuous basis. So that one people know that we need their support, but too, they can participate. How do you How do you get contact info for people who attend concerts? Sure thing s o our web. So we have kind of like a multi pronged approach. So the digital phase is on our website. There. We have a third party plug in O R. Rather service that helps present every single concert so that you can say All right, great. These are the fifty shows I’m gonna click on one, and then it asked youto ours VP, you put in your email, you select which language you’d like to receive information in, and then we’re able to, you know, grab, you know, capture that information. And then we have our community relations team that has a presence across so many events across the city that then they are actually physically collecting emails. How do they What do they say? Somebody. So they they’re walking among the audience before the show starts. Yeah, eso business, eh, Externally from our site. So if they’re out of community event, what happens? Oh, I’m sorry. He’s a community, not let us. So we have to go out. So you have tables. That’s correct. So let’s say a festival year are already all those things. You know, our swag are very appealing, so that makes it easy to bring people over. So that’s one way of getting emails. Two on the lawn again. We have our info booth, right? Very much very branded info, booth, English and Spanish information equipped with volunteers and staff. They’re also bilingual, so they’re trained cultural sensitivity, language, sensitivity. And again, that’s another way that we collect information. Because if you want to get some water, if you want to get a brochure, if you want to get a tote bag, you want to get a hat. You want to get sticker whatever it is. Once you’re there, you’re probably more likely to try to get more. You want to get more information because you’re not only receiving information, but you’re experiencing what our brand and what our mission is. Okay, I like your first point about being out in the community, not just waiting for people to call, and you don’t know that. Do you need to go out to like street fairs are great idea. That’s that’s crucial. And the thing with us is that we we want to reach everyone. So we’re all parts of the cities in different neighborhood and ethnic enclaves. Just because we want to make sure that one Level eight continues to put inclusivity at the forefront of everything that we do, too, that we make that earnest attempt of creating this organic, trusting relationships by those connections and three a letting people know there’s an incredible way to connect with fellow Angelenos and a freeway and get quality entertainment because we offer both local and international talent. And so, in a situation where L. A is an expensive city and you know, let’s say a family of four to six can’t afford four hundred dollars worth of concert tickets, right? You’re the alt correct, and so tickets, food, beverages easily. You can spend five hundred dollars in the night well, versus coming over to the level L A stage bringing your food. You know, it’s kind of a cook outside you can bring your blanket, bring your food, bring the whole family we have. Actually, we have one really cool Levitt ear, as we call them, of very staunch supporter of of ours. And her name is Nora. And every single summer she celebrates her birthday at eleven Ellen, and she brings out forty people for this, right? And it’s one of those things where it’s a great equalizer. Everyone can come whether it’s water, whether it’s juice, whether it’s a sandwich cake, they’re all coming out. Creating this potluck environment and enjoying the music and adding to the vibe at eleven Really a magical experience. We still we still actually have about two minutes there so together. So what more you’re going to share with your audience that we haven’t talked about sure that we haven’t talked about that That’s applicable for them, not about what we’ve done a lot of absolutely. I think it is just exploring the different ways that you know folks and get involved. I think media is going to be a very big point that I’m going to drive in because it’s important that people realize that should they adventure out into a second language it’s creating again those organic relationships or media. So I have conversations with Spanish media where my conversations are completely in Spanish. Right? That’s important because again you’re meeting them on their turf. I have conversations with England English media partners where everything is in English and then I have newer engagements or rather, interactions where it’s tze bilingual, right? It’s kind of reflective, right? Especially if I’m working with Gen z millennial media outlets or, you know, social media entities. It’s creating that really cool, conversational direct dialogue with them and meeting them on their turf so that when we meet them where they are absolutely so again, it helps frame the experience. But two, you know, people will be more likely to try to get involved with you if if they see that you’re making a really earnest attempt, you know, connect to their audience is that the same is travelling to another country, correct. When I think when when foreigners see that you’re you’re making an attempt to learn to use the language, your pronunciation isn’t so good. You may be the cabin. The vocabulary is not a robust, but you know it’s over between pointing and attempting and, you know, you’re you’re outreaching to them in their homeland. Correct. They’re going. They’re going to try to meet you halfway. That’s right, Right? With a little, you know, some variation of of their their English. That’s right. And what’s really same same. Exactly. And that’s and then ultimately, hyre one end this our programming, our programming, obviously, is our main product. And so we present ah, fifty percent of our baseline concert. So twenty five shows are going to be Latin genres. Right? And we’re talking about not only the cumbias and the betting is in sauces, but the acid jazz, the hip hop, the rnb thie Scott, the reggae, right? Just exploring the different visions auras of Spanish language music and presenting in away sametz correct where where they are again, understanding the culture understanding, but also helping people expand their musical pallets right there. Right, Gobi out. So the so the so The marine gay listener is getting exposed to Scott. Correct? Correct. We gotta leave it there. You’re sure? Alright. Is Oliver over Delgado? That’s right. Director of marketing and communications at the eleven a civilian Los Angeles. This is non-profit radio coverage of nineteen ntcdinosaur non-profit Technology Conference This interview. All of them at ninety ninety Sea brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact Thanks so much for being with us next week. Grit, succeeding as a woman in Tech and how to create an implement. Great ideas both from nineteen Auntie Si. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits, Data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna Slash Pursuing by Wagner’s Deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers When you’re cps dot com. Bye, Tell us Credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations. Made Easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine A Creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Thanks for that information, Scotty. There with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. 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