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Nonprofit Radio for November 11, 2024: Accepting Cryptocurrency Gifts

Pat DuffyAccepting Cryptocurrency Gifts

Code. Blockchain. Proofs. Wallets. Exchanges. Coins. If foreign words like these keep you from accepting a gift that tens of millions of Gen Z and Millennials invest in and gift, Pat Duffy will set your mind at ease. He defines the terms in plain language and explains why crypto giving belongs on your donation page. He’s co-founder of The Giving Block.

 

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And welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I am your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be forced to endure the pain of kyphosis. If you twisted me around the idea that you missed this week’s show, here’s our associate producer, Kate to introduce it. Hey, Tony, here’s what’s up accepting Cryptocurrency gifts, code, Blockchain, proofs, wallets, exchanges, coins. If foreign words like these keep you from accepting a gift that tens of millions of gen Z and millennials invest in and gift. Pat Duffy will set your mind at ease. He defines the terms in plain language and explains why crypto giving belongs on your donation page. He’s co founder of the giving block on Tony’s Steak too. We have a new president were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forums for your nonprofit donor box.org here is accepting Cryptocurrency gifts. It’s a pleasure to welcome Pat Duffy to nonprofit radio. Pat co-founded the giving block, creating the new fundraising category, crypto philanthropy. The giving block helps thousands of nonprofits, fundraise cryptocurrencies, stocks and donor advised fund grants. He was a Forbes 30 under 30 in social impact in 2022. You’ll find the company at the Giving block.com and you’ll find Pat Duffy on linkedin. Pat. Welcome to nonprofit radio. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad you’re with us. Uh, ok, let’s start with basics le let’s make sure everybody understands the, just the essentials, the basics of what Cryptocurrency is before we start talking about how your nonprofit can benefit from it. Yeah, definitely people overcomplicate it a lot. So in very simple terms, it’s a digital form of asset. It’s kind of like money in the sense that you can move it anywhere in the world really quickly. You can sit in an account. Um, it’s fungible divisible. Um But it kind of plays the role of a stock um or of gold kind of stores, the value in the sense that a lot of these cryptocurrencies have a set, um number of units that can’t be increased. The code is written that way. So there’s a scarcity element where you can buy into something and know that it won’t be um manufactured and won’t be creative of it. Uh And then it’s kind of like stocks and that a lot of these cryptocurrencies have speculative values where people are kind of betting on whether or not they’ll go up or down. Um But all of them for the most part are built off of Blockchain. And that is just uh kind of computer riddles, cryptographic uh proofs that are solving uh problems. And when they all um agree on the solution to that proof, a transaction is authorized and money moves so really secure way to store value, to move value. Um super cost efficient, just kind of a really effective version of digital money. Ok. Now it has been with us for years in, in, in the mainstream uh are fairly mainstream. There’s probably argument about that but it would be generous, you know, say mainstream at least or at least fairly mainstream. OK? But when you uh when you start to say, all right, so it’s, it’s sort of like you mentioned gold but then there’s code and you talk about scarcity and some people for some people, it’s speculative and it’s on the Blockchain and you talk about proofs, this is the stuff, this is the stuff that I think makes people like what the what are we talking about here? So, so, all right, that is an overview but we gotta, we gotta drill down what you know, like code and scarcity and speculative and Blockchain proofs uh reassure our listeners that this is something that is safe. Uh you mentioned safe, but you got to explain why the Blockchain and the proofs make it safe. Like why? OK, why is this something that we should just think about before we even start about how to get into it. We’re not there yet. Why should we consider bringing this to our board? Uh you know, with scarcity and speculative and Blockchain and proofs? Yeah, definitely. So every technology that you’re interfacing with sounds like this if you dig into it. So it’s just at a super high level. If you think about Bluetooth and Wi Fi, I even say like if you’re going to buy a car, like most people aren’t really in tune with the fact that like pistons are firing and like, what is the transmission? Like there’s all these things, it would sound infinitely more complicated than it needs to with every technology. Eventually you get to a place of like, why should I care? Do I need to use it? Has it been made easy for me? Um Those sorts of questions when it comes to crypto are important, we’ll get into those to answer the question first about like the complexity of it, like the Blockchain and the proofs and everything else. Like why do we even need something like this? We had money, we have gold, we have stocks. Like what’s the point? Um When you are sending money from one place to another, there’s no real system for it. Like ultimately what’s kind of happening is people are updating numbers and spreadsheets and there are automated processes for it. But like there’s no formalized system that’s authorizing that like there are lawyers authorizing whether or not an agreement is actually legitimate, right? Or that both parties have agreed to it. There are banks authorizing whether or not funds are in one place or another, right? There are people who are initiating transactions and kind of choosing where to park their money. Um When you think about stores of value, you can’t really store value with something like cash. Um you have to have something like gold and gold isn’t fungible, right? You can’t take a piece of gold and divide it and send it on the internet real quick. What do you think about something like stocks? You’re speculating on these assets that are tied to a company but doesn’t really function like money. You can’t move stocks between individual will or try to like stake your stock somewhere and earn interest very conveniently because it’s not technologically driven. There’s a lot of inefficiency in all these different types of money and stocks and gold. So what these cryptographers were trying to figure out is like, can we create a more um useful financial instrument? And in doing so, could we make it so that it’s infinitely more scalable than something like dollars in terms of where the dollars come from? In terms of how difficult it is to move money to one place versus another. Like ultimately, the money isn’t actually moving. We have something called fractional reserve banking where a bank is kind of pretending there’s more money in the bank than there is when you wire money to a bank, they’re not actually getting a bag of cash from somewhere else to kind of back it. Um So what you have with Cryptocurrency in short is you write this code and the code is formalized and it can’t be changed and it says it’s gonna do a few things. We’ll take Bitcoin as an example. So with Bitcoin, they go, there’s only ever gonna be this many Bitcoin and we write the code in a way where it can’t ever be altered. So people will know for sure in the way that when you have dollars sitting in the bank, the Federal Reserve during COVID, for instance, could print a bunch of money devaluing your uh savings. That can’t happen with Bitcoin if people go. But that’s great. There’s a 0% chance that more supply will be injected, but I can still have this asset. It’s easy to move around. Ok? I like that. And then people go, well, if I wanna send it to somebody else, how do I know it’s gonna get there? Right. Or if I have it, how can I prove that? I actually have it and someone can’t just take it away or say it isn’t sitting in my account. Um The code is again written with the cryptography where you would have to get more than half of the computers involved in Bitcoin to all simultaneously agree on the false premise that it isn’t your Bitcoin or the false premise that you send it somewhere else? You’d have to orchestrate what is an impossible level of scale and it packing all of these devices at once, maybe the most secure way and the most provable way to say, I actually have a thing or it’s actually gone where I said, I’d like it to. So you go, ok. So I have a more guaranteed way of saying I own something and a more guaranteed way of saying I’ve moved it somewhere else and people say I like that too and then there’s an efficiency component. So because it’s all code based, you don’t need banks to code is what authorized the transactions. You don’t need banks to prove that you have the asset or to say I moved it to someone else. It’s so much more cost effective and um you don’t have to spend as much money moving it from one place to the other. So you go, oh I could move a billion dollars instantaneously, you know, within a matter of seconds at the lowest cost possible without all these middle men and infrastructural components. So you’re writing code more or less to replace what are a bunch of inefficiencies in the asset types from like cash to stock gold and then the institutions necessary to move those asset types or prove that they’re in a particular position or pretend that they’re in a particular position with a lot of finance So it’s just a really efficient alternate financial system that solves for a lot of problems that cash had, the stocks had that gold had. So people are betting on it when people hold something like Bitcoin, they’re kind of betting on it as if you had a share of stock. Like cell phones are gonna be used more often because they’re so much more convenient than a landline. People are holding Bitcoin oftentimes as a correlated asset saying, I think this cryptography in finance, this uh cryptographic proof of work system. These blockchains, I think these tools are gonna be used more and that companies are gonna use uh these crypto assets to make their systems more efficient. Uh So that’s explaining the technology. Second half of your question was why should nonprofits take it seriously? Well, ok. All right. Before we get there, we, we will, we will, we gotta, we gotta tick off a few things. Um You, well, first of all, let’s reassure people, you said you’re writing code, but let’s just reassure people they’re not writing code, you’re not, you’re not profit is not writing the, the code is written in, in such a well, the code is already written for cryptocurrencies, right? I just wanna make that like when you’re on Google, when you’re using your iphone, when you’re using your tax software, the code is serving a particular purpose. Definitely, you’re just clicking buttons. There’s just making sure that somebody doesn’t say, well, wait, I have to write code. No. OK. If there was a listener who didn’t quite understand. OK. Um You, you said it’s uh now you said it’s scalable, but then you also said there’s a, there’s a finite amount. Those, those two, those two sound incongruous to me. So what am I not? What am I not getting about your explanation? No, great question. So, scalability in terms of the infrastructure, like how much money you can move over a particular period of time or how effectively it can solve different problems. And like if 100,000 people send the transaction or one person sends a transaction, it doesn’t become more difficult, right? You can fit more of these transactions into one block and have them approved. It actually becomes more energy efficient. The more transactions that happen in the sense that if you’re doing one transaction, you’re cracking all these codes to solve it, it kind of takes a lot of energy. This is one of the complaints of something like Bitcoin, but the more people who end up using the technology is actually uh authorizing more transactions at less cost. So it’s scalable in the sense that it allows for, if you wanted to scale the traditional financial ecosystem, you would need skyscrapers, you would need human employees, you would need a bunch of cars, taking them to buildings, you would need more lawyers, more agreements. Um When you do that off of a code base you can make an infinitely larger financial system to offer infinitely more transactions um at infinitely lower cost and more uh effectiveness. So, not scalable in the sense that you create more of the assets themselves. Um but scalable in the sense that more people can participate in that network at lower cost. Ok. Lower cost, greater efficiency, right. So, I mean, comparing it to uh you know, checks, you know, there’s a lot of, if there’s a heavy mail volume in the week, let’s say it’s the final week of December and is a heavy mail volume. You have to wait longer for your check to get to the nonprofit. You have to wait longer during certain periods for your broker to make a stock transfer for you. Even if it’s, to me, it’s just, it seems like it’s only a couple of keystrokes. But sometimes you say, well, it takes up to 3 to 3 business days to, well, it’s like you, you, you, you’re typing a couple of keys. What, what is the three business days? But anyway, uh but brokers, brokers can be all right, broke. All right. So, and to your point, you know, you made the same point. You’d have to build, build a bigger buildings and have more bank employees to scale, you know, billions of transactions or something. All right, I see. I understand. Thank you. Explain the scale up. Um Another one, you talk about, uh you know, security, you’d have to convince more than half of the servers that are, that are part of the chain that you own, the asset that you’re claiming that you own or you’re owning the, uh, we’re not talking about dozens. Reassure people. How many, what’s the scale of the server, the servers that are involved in? You know, let’s just stick with Bitcoin. That was your example for the, for the currency so far. Oh, yeah, I’d have to look up the number but I mean, there’s millions. It could be tens, hundreds. I, I’d have to look at what it is. Um, but in short, when you, when I say I’m gonna send Tony, you know, $100 in Bitcoin, what it does is it wraps it in a cryptographic riddle more or less that these miners. When you hear about like Bitcoin mining, you have all these computers that are waiting to crack riddles. These are riddles that like humans can’t solve it. A computer needs to figure it out and the faster they solve it and by getting it correct, they get a little reward that’s like released on the network. So they, they get a little bit of money off that. So they’re all university incentivized to solve it correctly. You would have to hack into all of these individual computers and get them to simultaneously, uh, agree that an incorrect proof is actually a correct proof that says instead of your wallet is the endpoint someone else’s wallet is the end point, which was impossible. More or less when there were even like 50 of these computers doing it. You’d have to orchestrate and crack into everyone’s system which all has their own security protocols. Um, it just becomes infinitely more impossible over time. So at a bank you can log into one bank uh computer and you can change the records on the spreadsheet or you could push money out of an account to another person. You’d actually have to convince, um, you know, millions of these super computers more or less that the money isn’t actually an Tony’s accounts in someone else’s. And then the same thing is true for changing a transaction record, which is why law enforcement um prefers crypto transactions to cash. Why they think it’s so much more traceable and safe. Um If you’re a criminal who’s moved Bitcoin, let’s say, from one wallet to another, you could never change the record or cook the books like it has moved from a wallet to another wallet. You would need that same level of computer takeover to just pretend you didn’t move money or you took it somewhere. So at an individual level, it allows for its privacy if I send it to you and we’re not being investigated by the FBI. If you’re a company, I could transfer funds without having to go through all the protocols. But if law enforcement were to try to investigate, did you do something you weren’t supposed to do. There’s no way for me to pretend I didn’t commit a crime or move money to that other person. It’s permanently locked in and traceable. All right. Reassuring. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location. So you can grow your impact faster. That’s Donor box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers. Just like you a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability, your organization needs, helping you help others visit donor box.org to learn more. Now back to accepting Cryptocurrency gifts. All right. So let’s let’s move to um the value, you know, why, why should, why should nonprofits pay attention to this? I mean, I let’s talk a little about like giving trends a bit to, I’m sure this skews by age younger, I I happen to be a baby boomer, young, young, very young, very very young, baby boomer, very young baby, boomer uh mathematic. No, but mathematical proof by, by, by birth year. Uh I, I’m very young baby boomer. Um in case I hadn’t mentioned that I am young baby, but you know, I’m sure there are not many boomers uh giving crypto donation. So let’s talk a little about the giving trends but, but also just, you know, generally why, look, why bother. We’ve been doing this fine with checks, stocks, wire transfers. Why, why should we bother? Oh, it’s a great question. So, if, if the methods of payment you accept as a charity were driven by the nonprofit trying to solve a payments problem, you wouldn’t really have to adapt at all. Right. The nonprofit gets cash through a check the same way they would from a credit card. But you take credit cards as a nonprofit because eventually there are so many people using them and they’re so much more convenient to the ability to get that donor and convert that donor and have them pay in a way where they’ll actually send you the money. Once credit cards become their thing, you eventually have to just adjust to it. Right. The same reason nonprofits take stocks, you don’t take stocks because it’s easier than a credit card. You take stocks because it’s so much more tax efficient for a US donor. If they’re gonna send this appreciated stock to the charity and it’s a million bucks or they send a million in their bank account, they might be erasing an extra 150 grand in capital gains tax liability because the donor doesn’t pay capital gains tax on the donate stuff and neither doesn’t charity. So the example I use is like, think about credit cards, merged with stocks. Credit cards are used because people move money using credit cards and actually there’s so many people doing that, that if you don’t have that option on your site, a lot of people come there to look for it. You ask for bank details or a check instead and they just drop off. They go, this isn’t the way I like to move money. Um And there is a conversion issue with that and then people take stocks again because if you’re gonna get a big donation, 5 to $15,000 average gift size, plenty of them, a lot higher than that. Donors who get into those types of gift sizes. They’re thinking about the numbers, they’re thinking about the math. And if I can give 100 grand to one charity and save $20,000 more, I’m gonna consider that nonprofit. Um, a lot more often than a charity I can always send the cash to. So there’s a sort of a supply side push. That’s right. You can say the donors, there are donors, the supply side of the charities being on the demand side. There’s a, there’s a, there’s a push among don’t when checks became popular, when stocks became popular, when credit cards became popular. Absolutely. Right. Ok. That’s right. So there’s, there’s tens of millions of people in the US who use Cryptocurrency and there’s about 600 million worldwide. So it’s, it’s at a size and scale in terms of the user count and people participating in these systems that it’s not, you can’t not have it as an option at a certain point. So like there’s more users on Coinbase than there are on fidelity or Charles Schwab at this. Like it’s, it’s at a scale that most people who don’t participate in. It aren’t really aware of. Like Gen Zs are more likely to trade crypto than trade stocks, like more likely. And then millennials, 90% of millennial millionaires are crypto traders. Like it’s if you are a millennial or gen Z, that cares seriously about investing in any capacity, it’s a part of your world. It’s part of your portfolio and it’s part of the way you think about money. So when it comes to giving, it’s the same thing. So there’s that element of just the widespread uptake and then there’s the element of it’s so tax efficient. So when something appreciates again, you don’t pay capital against tax on it. So if I have a million dollars in Bitcoin, that’s gone up a lot. And I have a million dollars sitting in the bank, I can move the million dollars in Bitcoin to the charity if I want to make that kind of a donation. And let’s say the 150,000, 200,000 that I owed in state and federal capital gains tax on the appreciation of that investment that evaporates the charity gets the full million. I give them the full million to get the full million dollar write off. And that $200,000 tax burden disappears. And then I, as the donor can even take the million I had in the bank and buy more Bitcoin or whatever crypto I’m donating and now I have a million dollars of Bitcoins if I gave the cash. But it’s at today’s cost basis. I don’t know any taxes on it yet. So it’s this magical tax liability eraser that people have always dealt with stocks, especially older donors, younger donors never really did it because it’s inconvenient. We need to work with the broker. But with crypto, you can send the transfer as easily as you said it with a credit card with this enormous additional tax benefit. And the more of these younger donors who keep their cash in crypto to interest and then move out of those stable cryptocurrencies into investments like Bitcoin, the more of their money that’s parked there, the more convenient it is for them to send it that way, the more tax efficient it is because crypto has outperformed all the other asset classes for the last 10 years. All of those things compound to the point where if you want younger donors in particular young donors to consider that major gift pathway. So you can kind of future proof that donor base for the great wealth transfer and beyond, they’re becoming this larger and larger swap of what that world looks like. Now, what about the charitable uh federal income tax uh deduction? Is there, is there that for a Bitcoin gift. Is there a charitable deduction? Yep. You get the same deductions if you gave anything else, you the tax liability and it’s really convenient. Ok. So you avoid the capital gains and there is a charitable deduction which would be at your, whatever your marginal tax rate is. Ok. And that’s been locked in by the IRS year after year over and over. It’s not going anywhere. Ok. Just making it, making sure the basics are covered. Ok. OK. What more, what more do you want to say uh about uh value, importance, relevance, anything? II, I didn’t wanna, I didn’t wanna end your, your explanation. I just wanted to make uh I wanted to make sure people understand the basics. No, that was it. I was out of important things to say, I guess. Uh the only other thing I would say is um for nonprofits to understand the uptake. So like the majority of the Forbes top 100 nonprofits in the US already have crypto fundraising programs. So it’s, it’s more common than not the bigger and more established. The nonprofit is, it’s becoming pretty much universal for small and mid size nonprofits. Um It’s less common in the same way that they tend to lag on other technology adoption, but it’s, it’s not like a fringe thing from the charity side either. Right. Billions of dollars have been donated. Um Nonprofits actively present this to donors in particular younger donors and it generates revenue, increased average gift size. Like it’s, it’s pretty well adopted over the last 67 years. All right. How do we reassure folks about the headlines that they see, you know, a Bitcoin dropped from? Yeah, I don’t, I don’t really know what the numbers are. I know, like at the low end it went down to $30,000 but it had been as high as, I don’t remember how much, you know, per per coin. How do we reassure folks who read headlines about crypto, Bitcoin? Well, they’re not synonymous. Bitcoin is a, is a, is a coin, one of many cryptocurrencies, but people read headlines about Bitcoin the floor dropping out. How do we reassure people about that? That’s a great question. So there’s um in short, there are several considerations that matter a lot for folks involved in crypto that don’t matter for nonprofits depending on how you’re using it. So, one of the big misconceptions charities think about with crypto is that they have to hold crypto to accept it. So like one of the first things we built into our tool is it immediately liquidates any balances instantaneously. So it’s just a program that scans you have a crypto exchange account on a heavily regulated crypto exchange platform tied to your institutions. Ein it sits there and as soon as crypto hits any wallet in that account, it says automatically sell for the US dollar going rate value instantaneously. So from a volatility standpoint, as an investor or as a nonprofit who wants to add crypto, let’s say to your endowment. Um and invest in it long term price volatility is a concern for sure if you’re investing and you’re not interested in things that are that volatile. Um Or you worry about the, the risk of losing value on the funds that you’re holding and the idea of holding crypto or investing in it as a, a donor or a nonprofit isn’t for you. But for 99% of nonprofits, they use that auto liquidation feature. Even the nonprofits who hold it for the most part liquidate the crypto that comes in and they’ll invest in more stable cryptocurrencies like a Bitcoin Ethereum. They’ll make sure that if there’s some of these smaller all cryptocurrencies that are extra volatile, they don’t hold those things. So as a nonprofit, you can accept the fact that let’s just say us, for example, that there’s 60 ish million people trading this stuff, they have decided to participate in the system. Despite the volatility, this is how they’d like to invest and potentially give to us when it’s up. We’ll probably get more when it’s down. We’ll probably get a little bit less. But ultimately, that volatility is not something we have to endure because it hits our account and it automatically liquidates. So the price volatility thing is optional for charities, whereas it’s not optional for investors. Ok. Right. You’re making a distinction between accepting it and investing in it. Uh, and there’s also price volatility in the stock market. Absolutely. And that’s why stocks, stocks are quickly liquidated. It’s so, it’s, it’s identical. Nonprofits don’t hold stocks that are, that are donated. They, uh, they liquidate that day usually and, and then they can decide to invest or, or spend, you know, what, whatever and if they’re gonna invest in stock it, it’s, it’s obviously a decision that they make independent of the, the, the stock that was donated. That’s right. And it’s probably for the best because there are a lot of, a lot of our nonprofits, like, around this time, like Bitcoin almost hit a new all time high yesterday. Like, cryptocurrencies has been doing really, really well. It’s up like 100 and 50% over the last year. It’s, it’s like, tripled since the bottom of the last Bear market. Um, a lot of nonprofits. I mean, dozens in the last couple weeks have been, like, turn off the auto conversion and I’m like, let’s have a meeting and let’s talk about it. It’s just bad. It’s just natural. You see a thing go up for 12 months and you’re like, it’s gonna keep going up forever. I feel like an idiot. I’m not a sucker like I know. And it’s like, well, let’s just, let’s say let’s not time the crypto market anymore than we’re gonna try to time the, uh, the New York Stock Exchange or you know, or the S and P, we’re not, we’re not gonna be able to, let’s not time these things. Let’s not get carried away either. All right. So now that not only that, not only accepting it, but let’s keep it, let’s hold it. So, so our general, we cannot give financial advice back. We can’t tell anyone not to do. But like, usually after a conversation it’s very rare that any of our nonprofits ever don’t have auto conversion on. And some people get annoyed about that because we’ve been doing this for seven years. So the nonprofits who haven’t had auto conversion on have actually made uh an extraordinary amount of money. If they actually held it through, they didn’t pan excel at different points. It’s gone up a lot over the last seven years, of course. Um But there’s a lot of volatility. So like we said, ever, it’s just like you could turn it on today or turn it off tomorrow and easily lose money. Like there’s a lot of risk in investing and a lot of no in particular, let’s just say if you don’t have an endowment making, the only asset you’re deciding to hold and invest in Cryptocurrency is I don’t think reasonable. And even if you have an endowment, it should be a very small percentage if you’re even considering it just because of like you’re saying, there’s some volatility there, you mentioned different kinds of coins. Uh Let, let’s do we, we’ve used Bitcoin as an example. You mentioned a couple of others. What do, how, how does all that? And there are many right, there’s, there’s hundreds, hundreds, aren’t there maybe thousands? Thousands? All right, thousands of different coins. How does that play into uh what we accept? Uh do we need to accept certain coins? Only ex explain that the basics there? Yeah. So there are some cryptocurrencies that solved really important problems just from a technological standpoint that made it really easy to write codes called smart contracts that like automate processes and allow people to build these kind of applications that tie into the networks. And then there are some cryptocurrencies that are, it’s like open source code related to some other crypto and you make kind of a copy and paste version of it. Like you hear about these meme coins where it’s just kind of um you’ll see a Cryptocurrency and it’s got like a picture of a dog and there’s like $30 billion invested in it. And that’s sort of like baseball cards or certain types of art where it’s like people are investing in it because they’re trying to catch a wave and there’s like momentum and timing and it’s not really doing anything that’s fundamentally changing anyone’s life. It’s just like people want it because other people want it and those tend to muddy the water in terms of people understanding the value because they’re like, oh all cryptos kind of feel like this. But in short, um there’s probably uh you know, a few 100 that are doing unique technological things and those tend to be the top Cryptocurrency. So even if you get down into the top 2030 5080 these are very high market cap um assets, like more than most other types of investments. Like I think on the stock market with the Bitcoin ETF S for instance, like I think the Bitcoin ETF S have well surpassed silver. Like there’s a lot of interest in some of these technologies. But if you made an ETF O one of these like Doge coins, um you probably wouldn’t necessarily see the same level of interest. Um What a nonprofit needs to understand is similar to what we said about the auto conversion. This doesn’t need to be a consideration of yours because again, you’re not investing in these cryptocurrencies or choosing which ones to invest in. You just wanna make sure that whatever is being sent to you isn’t like a scam or something that like the SEC or some other regulatory agency would consider. Um not OK, or maybe classify as a unregistered security. And then you want to make sure that there’s enough liquidity on the order books to accept this and not get caught, hold in the bag you don’t want because we’ve heard these horror stories of very small cap crypto gets donated to charity. It’s $100 million type donation and then they try to move it to an exchange and sell it and they lose 80% of the value because again, the volatility. So that is solved for by using an exchange on the back end instead of just a wallet. So these exchange accounts that we use through Gemini, it’s just like Coinbase, it’s like fidelity. It’s like e trade. It’s a uh exchange with a ton of order book liquidity. Um millions of users people trading into and out of assets and the uh assets that get listed on that exchange. These cryptocurrencies are ones that, that exchange and their legal team in uh relationship to all of these regulators that they interface with have decided are OK to list and have enough interest in market activity um where they can easily liquidate, um buy and sell orders. So when you’re taking crypto through the giving block, it’s only the assets that GM and I the most regulated Cryptocurrency exchange in the US has listed. And then if a donor came to you trying to send you something else, we have something called private donor services where we have a, a lawyer on our team and we can talk to the exchange and other partners to decide like is this a legitimate asset to accept from that donor? But those cases are very rare. So you should almost never. And for pretty much every nonprofit work with the answer is never um be in a situation where you’re deciding, should I accept a particular crypto or not? That should be handled by this exchange with a giant legal team and strong relationships with all the regulators. It’s time for Tony’s Steak Two. Thank you, Kate. We will have a new president. My thinking is around our national nonprofit community. Um And I feel that there’s potential for some of our work to be uh defunded or threatened or, or just minimized. And if we see any of that, we all, all of us have to speak out against it. We can’t only support our, our lane, our mission. We all need to stand together as a nonprofit community. So, like I’m thinking, there’s the potential for nonprofits that do work for uh immigrants rights. LGBT Q plus rights people who fight climate change, those who product uh protect uh reproductive rights and women’s health. Those of us who are advancing public education, fight for uh uh fighting for economic justice and equality and equity, protecting vulnerable populations. Those who work for safer gun laws, advancing social justice and the rule of law. Those of us who champion first amendment rights of speech, assembly and religion, the folks who promote a free press, those who assure ethics in government. Those are the ones I have so far that you may very well think of others. It might be your work or the work of other nonprofits. But the point is that we need to stand up for the work of each of our nation’s nonprofits, not just as I said, not just our own lane. Um, and I’m very willing to say, you know, if these things don’t happen, you know, if, if agencies, uh, aren’t threatened, if, if there, if there isn’t that kind of trouble then, uh, you can call me, uh, an alarmist. I’ll, I’ll accept it six months a year from now. If it’s not happening, Tony, you’re an alarmist. But I do think it’s more likely now than it was before the election. Um, and some of the things I’m thinking of potentially, um, maybe a tax on the, uh charitable deduction, maybe carving out some nonprofits that are no longer considered 501 C three and, and eligible for the federal charitable income tax deduction. That would be enormous that some people, some nonprofits donors can’t get a deduction anymore for giving. Um, it could be rhetoric, you know, it could just be talk whether it’s official or it’s just some random asshole or so it could be some official asshole. Uh, you know, or it could be some random official. You know, if, if we’re talking, if we’re hearing, talking down missions or even specific agencies, we need to all call that out it. We, we, we have to stand together. Um, maybe, maybe the federal government starts unfairly favoring some nonprofits over others in, in some other way, you know, beyond the charitable deduction or rhetoric. We have to all stand up for each other, please. Because if we’re divided, then our community is weakened. We all need to stand for each other. And I do think the potential is there because the country did vote for big change and we’re gonna see it. I also want to salute my fellow veterans, Monday where the show is being published on Monday the 11th Veteran’s Day. I admire your service. You made enormous sacrifices to serve the country in any of our military branches. So I admire that service. I salute you on Veterans Day and those are the issues. Those are the things for Tony’s take two, Kate. A lot of things might change. But what will never change is the love for our veterans. Thank you guys. That is very well said, Kate, you’re right. We can never waiver our support for our veterans and, and our admiration for their service. Well said, well, we’ve got bookoo but loads more time. Here’s the rest of accepting Cryptocurrency gifts with Pat Duffy contrast in exchange which you just explained very well with wallet wallets, which you’ve, you’ve mentioned a couple of times. Uh, what, what, what’s the difference here? Well, well, first, what is a wallet? What is a wallet? And then how does it differ from an exchange? Yeah, this is why nonprofits should be set up with some even if it’s not us. But like a solution that has an exchange account and everything else because donors will often tell nonprofits just pop open a wallet. So for each of these cryptocurrencies, you can participate in them and move value back and forth by having what’s called a wallet. So, like we talked about with Bitcoin, there’s an end point where the Bitcoin we’re sending needs to go and there’s an end point where the Bitcoin was originally sitting. So those are referred to as wallets. So exchanges when you’re holding, um, Bitcoin on exchange, for instance, they have the Bitcoin wallets and they’re holding on to the keys to those wallets. Um You’re kind of giving over the security component to them similar to when you’re buying and selling stocks on a lot of these exchanges. You don’t actually have like a paper stock sitting in a safe somewhere. Um This would be the equivalent of that paper stock example, but digital. So you can actually have Bitcoin sitting in a wallet that you have and it’s your own wallet that you can open up, not a wallet held by the exchange and you can take that Bitcoin keep it in a wallet. Um, that only you have like a private code phrase to get into. So that was the original idea behind the technology. This, when you hear it decentralized and disintermediating, like part of what’s really cool about something like Bitcoin or theorem is you can, if it was just you and I, and we were working on some deal, I was building you a fence and I wanted to send you money. I could send you that full amount of value using something like Bitcoin for my wallet years without ever needing to use an exchange or a lawyer or someone else as a middleman. And the code is written to allow for that. And, and if II, I remember this about wallets too. If, if you lose your, if you lose the key to your wallet, that’s it. You’ve lost, it’s like a 16 digit code or something like that or maybe it’s even longer. I don’t know. Maybe, but if you lose the key, you’ve lost what, everything that’s in your wallet, you can’t prove, you can no longer prove that, that you owned what, what was in, what is in your wallet that you can no longer access. Yeah. And that’s the trade off. There’s a lot of misinformation on this or I wouldn’t even say misinformation. But misunderstandings like, um, the only way that can happen to you is if you lose the information, right. So on, there’s nothing, there’s no security issue with the technology when you hear, like this person lost $100 million of Bitcoin. It’s like, well, it’s like losing your email password but you can’t get another, like, be careful with it is what a lot of people say. Like, if you’re gonna do that, like, then if you have $100 million and you lose the information you wrote down about it, like it’s kind of on you is done. And then the, there’s an inverse to that too, which is sometimes exchanges that you’re trusting with that money. Um, they get hacked and now people think about that as a Cryptocurrency hack. But it’s actually the opposite. What the crypto people will tell you is like, well, if you had your Bitcoin sitting in a wallet and you had the private keys to no one could have ever taken it. So in both scenarios, people think about it as a, uh, Cryptocurrency and security issue, but it’s actually the opposite. There’s a 0% chance you will ever lose your money if you have it in a wallet in your own private keys unless you lose the password. Now, if you’re, and like my parents and other folks, like they will lose that password. I know it just put it on the exchange because the odds of an exchange being hacked for crypto is still less than even traditional banks and find it. Like, it’s, they’re very regulated, they’re very secure. It’s the same as having money in a bank. And a lot of the like cash that you have there is FDIC insured as well, just like you would in a bank. So like there’s a lot of reasons to use an exchange for institutions like a nonprofit. You should definitely be using exchange, not a wallet because if you put in the wrong code and you send it somewhere. It’s not supposed to go, you can’t get it back and if you lose the code that you wrote down to get into that wallet, you can’t get it back. So if you’re very careful and pretty libertarian in nature, it’s an amazing technology for actually having stuff, but being able to move it, um, online, it’s like having gold in the safety, you can actually use to buy goods. Um, but if you’re not that specific person just use an exchange. It’s, it’s like having a bank account. OK. OK. Let’s move forward then to w what we, what we uh like we wanna bring this to our board or our, you know, we’re not, we’re not the CEO we’re gonna bring it to our vice president. Help folks. Um uh We’ve done a lot, we, we’ve, we’ve done a lot of that already. I was gonna say help folks make the argument. But what, what would be steps that we would take? I mean, II I think is there, I think we’ve helped folks understand what it is. Why it’s valuable to accept. Uh Are, are, are you ready to move to? How would we, how would we start to implement a AAA crypto acceptance platform? Yeah, absolutely. So if I were a non bro, let’s say I’m, I’m talking to the board, I’ll just like hit the key points here both in terms of the why and the implementation. I would say there’s trillions of dollars invested in it. There are Bitcoin theory, ETF s. Now on the actual stock market, every hedge fund has it or is moving money into it. Every millennial or gen Z has some invest this way if we want to grow our major gift program, which generally speaking, probably has an average donor age of like mid sixties um and not slowly have that eaten away if we want to win out the Great Wall Transfer. Um We want to get a a younger, more robust uh donor base that actually has major giving potential. Like we wanna grow this nonprofit and kind of not get left behind by a very serious financial trend. Like this is a donation method. We need to accept kind of point blank period like it just needs to be an option for our donors. Um Now, in terms of how we implement it, there’s a couple of really important things we need to do. One. We need to make sure that it’s easily discoverable on our website. Um This mistake has been made with stocks, with donor advice funds, sometimes even with bank transfers where it’s really hard to find alternative giving options. Um which is why platforms like ours, in addition to this donation form that we give to nonprofits, um We aggregate all of our charities on the giving block.com with a search bar where donors go search for charities that take crypto and give and we get tens of millions of dollars donated through that channel because donors look on the nonprofit site, they don’t see it and then they just go to Google, Google take this donation. It’s too, there’s too many tax implications for me to not give it directly. We don’t want to be that charity because like every day so it goes to the giving block looking for some heart related charity, they don’t see it. So they give this giant crypto donation to American Heart Association instead, like our donors need to know we take this. So I would take seriously like our ways to give menu and then like the donate button on our site where it takes you to this giving interface. Like I wanna make sure that I’ve got a very clear other ways to give type options, crypto stop donor avi funds a bank transfer. Like let’s get that infrastructure right? So when donors are on our site looking for a way to give, they’ll find this if they’re looking for it. Um Then two, I would say in terms of how we integrate it on our site, I would remind the board and it’s a copy and paste donation form, just like anything else. There’s nothing crypto technological involved here. All of that is built into the code on the back end, we are just pasting a giving form on our site where donors select which crypto they wanna give, enter their details and then send uh money. What happens for us is that crypto hits an account, it cashes out, it swept to a bank account. We get cash as if they use the credit card or anything else. But the donor gets the crypto giving journey they’re looking for. So to explain that we are accommodating the best in class crypto donor journey. They can send money from any of the major exchanges or wallets, etcetera. It’s fully accommodating. And for us, we’re just getting cash. This price volatility concerns which cryptos we take, how do we hold it? When do we hold it? All of that is off the table. These things have been solved for. Um And then the real conversation from there is like, how do we fundraise it? And that final step is one that a lot of nonprofits missed our 1st 30 clients that we signed for the giving block were charities that already took crypto that we signed over to our product instead. Not even because our product was so much better. It had a lot of features that were good. Um But because we knew how to fundraise it and we helped them do some basic stuff like talk about the fact that they take it on social and add in other ways to give button in their capital campaign emails. We added QR codes to the direct mailers people were sending out and people started ho their phone over a piece of paper and sending $50,000 in Bitcoin because so it’s available for them. Um, those sorts of considerations often get missed and then you could still do all of those other things. Right. And end up being one of these great nonprofits with a donate Bitcoin button that just sits somewhere collecting dust because you never really told your donors about it. Um That’s the final consideration. Do you have any more fundraising tips? Oh, yeah, I mean, sure. All right. Well, uh infinite. Uh That’s a lot. But uh we could, we could do with AAA very small, finite number like two, just another couple more fundraising tips because it’s very analogous to gifts we’ve been taking for, for decades and generations. I mean, you, you mentioned, you know, talking about it on social, uh adding a button making it clear on your ways to give, drop down menu. Yeah. So to reassure folks that this is not so something esoteric and uh, I don’t know, forbidden or, you know, whatever nuanced share, share a couple more simple, you know, fundraising methods. It’s, it’s probably an overstatement anyway. I’ve probably got, I’ve probably got three good ones and then a bunch of share a few more. But yeah, so to your point, I feel like this is, it’s, it is fundraising advice. It’s, it’s like a bit more um high level but like just pretend it stocks is like a really important thing for every fundraiser to think about for at the organization. They just pretend it stocks. What would you do. And unfortunately, for a lot of nonprofits, when you make that list of what you would do for stock, what you realize is everything you’re writing down you’re not doing for stocks. You know, like, well, I’d make it really easy to find on my website when I am having a major gift meeting. I would of course, bring it up as an option with the donors because maybe they don’t think of their stocks as a donation method. They think of it as an investment. And maybe this donor who gives us 10-K a year is like, well, the S and P is up 25%. Like I would, can I fulfill my $100,000.10 year pledge right now because I have a huge tax incentive to do it at this. It’s like I would have it featured there. I would make it really easy. Again, I put a QR code that opens up this giving page slash form so younger people could send this stuff from their phones. I would make sure that if I’m sending a capital campaign email that like this is such an important giving option with a way higher average gift size, like let’s make sure it’s easy to find. So think about it like a stocks is what I would say first and foremost. And then the second piece I would say is blended with stocks and with donor advised funds, right? And with these other tax efficient giving options, if you take real estate, whatever that is, blend it all together. Because what that solves for is one of the biggest sticking points for nonprofits donor segmentation and strategy. They’re like, who is a crypto donor? How do I know when to ask for crypto versus something else? How do I find a crypto donor in my database? Like, how do I know for sure that I should be asked for crypto and not these other things. It’s really hard to figure that out and it takes time and depending on the quality of your data and Wealth engine tools, like not every charity has availability um or access to those things. If you just take crypto and you mix it in with stock and that whatever other things you take. Now, suddenly every email you send makes sense. It could be going to every donor you have at every agent just goes, hey, we take tax efficient options like stock d crypto, et cetera, right? It’s, it’s all directly analogous to forms of giving that you just named. I mean, how do you know if somebody has a donor advice fund? You don’t? So you could just mention in your, in your, in your over your lunch that, you know, you know, donor advice funds are, are, are a great way to give. Stocks are a great way to give. We accept Cryptocurrency, you know, and there’s something resonates with somebody then they’ll say, oh, crypto, crypto, oh, I have a donor advice fund. So, you know, you don’t need to know, you know, just like you don’t need to know someone’s wealth necessarily to ask for a gift. You can look at their giving history and you can just promote, promote it in the same breath that you’re promoting stocks and stocks and donor advised funds. And we accept, we accept crypto as well. 100%. No, you nailed it and it, it’s helpful to know. It’s nice to know. And even then it’s a lot less complicated. People think leave cryptos up a lot in a particular year. And you have these donors who gave crypto the last year, like my version of stewardship is like, we just email donors and we’re like, hey, cryptos up a lot like you feeling generous and if crypto is down a lot, sometimes we’re like, hey, we know crypto is down a lot. Like we’re not gonna ask you for money right now because it’s the way you like to give. But maybe you could introduce us to some friends or run a fundraising for us, maybe some like, like maybe there’s other kind of crypto things we could be doing. Like it’s helpful as an indicator, but it’s to your point, it’s not necessary you can just open up the options. And I guess the last thing I’ll say is that if you’re trying to get them to come out of the woodwork. A match is so powerful for all these giving options. I, until we started this company, like it’s, it was seven years ago and still throughout this period, I’ve never found a nonprofit who independent of us did a crypto specific match, a stock specific match. A da A specific match. And das was always the one that blew my mind the most. I’m like, there’s $260 billion sitting in accounts earmarked for charity. It’s the only money these donors have that they can’t spend anywhere else. It’s already sitting in, it can only ever go to a charity and what they’ll probably do, especially if they’re in their thirties or forties, they’ll let it sit there for decades and they’ll add it to an estate plan eventually. Like there’s no urgency they got the taxes out of when they parked it there. So how do you get the money out? Like if a donor gave me 25 grand tomorrow, I go. Can I use this as a match? They always say yes, you’re like, yeah, but why not help you fund raise? And I would just put an email out and be like if you have a DA account will match the next 25 grand in given. And I wanna know who in my donor base, who has the debt, how much will they send? And once I get 1000 bucks for someone who has one of those like now when I’m steering that donor, like how much money do they have in that account? Can we block it in as a commitment to us? Like, you wouldn’t even have that conversation without prompting it? So, in short matching the specific giving options occasionally, especially with the targeted email to particular high value donors, let’s say really nice way to get people coming out of the woodwork in addition to just sprinkling it in as a passive option. Let’s talk a little about something you you mentioned in passing like to flush it out a bit. Uh mining energy consumption. Uh The popular press uh explains that uh these, these mining operations can be very energy intensive. Let’s uh can you flush that out? I don’t know if you can reassure folks, but at least explain what it is. We’re explain what it is that I’m talking about. I’m explain, explain, explain to the listeners what I’m talking about because I don’t, I don’t fully understand it, but I know there’s a lot of energy behind all these calculations and proofs and they have uh they have an energy, they have an impact on our energy infrastructure. No, 100%. So there’s like there’s warehouses with these computers, like thousands of them sometimes and they’re like running these computers that are trying to solve um these proofs to authorize transactions um for a network like Bitcoin in particular, like it requires the most they use crypt or cryptographic proof of work is what it’s called. And there’s a lot of value in it that other types of um networks don’t have in terms of like the utmost security and traceability and everything. Like it’s, it does a lot of really powerful things, but it uses more energy than it should. However, it’s exponentially less than is reported. Um because a weird thing happened, like the, the media more or less than it came from a Columbia research thing that was like quickly debunked, but no one seemed to care. Um They confuse what’s called a block with a transaction. So we talked about it earlier. You could have one transaction like one Bitcoin transaction that goes out to the network. And if it was the only one, that’s all that would be in one of those blocks on a Blockchain. So once uh once the system gets a block, then the computers all fight to try to figure it out as fast as possible and it cracks the code. But when there’s a lot of transactions happening in each of these blocks, there’s usually between like 1000 and 2500, they took a number like the amount of dollars per Bitcoin transaction. And I think they said it’s like 100 and 5 to 100 and $35 worth of energy per transaction. One, if that were the case, no one would do it. Obviously, just everyone would be losing a ton of money all. Like it just mathematically, people should have seen that number. But like, well, that’s impossible. Obviously, people wouldn’t spend more than what they’re sending hundreds of thousands of times a day. Like, it’s just not a thing. Um But you, when, once you divide it down, it’s like a few sets of transaction for the most energy intensive. So like Bitcoin and a zillion zeros and ultimately a decimal like fractions of a cent for every other Cryptocurrency that uses proof of work with these more efficient systems. So even at that scale, it’s a ton of energy for something like Bitcoin and people are always trying to find ways to make it more efficient. Um but it’s exponentially less than what’s reported. And I think it’s inarguable that Bitcoin is still more efficient than the traditional financial system. Like no one runs numbers saying like, well, if we want to use banks, like we said, we have infinite skyscrapers and commuters and like lawyer, like there’s just an infinite amount of waste and energy and like little sheets of plastic getting dumped into landfills to like make traditional finance work. Like the Bitcoin ecosystem is not nearly as significant as I feel like people reported on. Um However, it’s definitely the least energy efficient of the cryptocurrencies and it’s like, it’s a good thing that people are like, let’s make it a lot more efficient because it’s using more energy than it should over time. I’m just kind of like you said about the postal service. I’m betting on Cryptocurrency even something like Bitcoin over the next five years in particular to become exponentially more efficient. In the same way, I would bet on emails over time being a less energy intensive way to move mail than like the post office. Like, just having code versus infinite, like actual physical infrastructure and commuting. Like, it just, it’s a better bet from an ecological standpoint even though it started off, I think, pretty inefficient. OK. And, and that’s where a lot of the press came from. All right. Plus this, plus this misunderstanding that you said was debunked. But you know, the that rarely sees, sees a lot. It gets anywhere near the number of eyes as the original reporting does. OK? All right. Um What, what proportion of all the crypto transactions is Bitcoin? Is it, is it an enormous proportion? Is it, is it, is it as outsized as it seems uh to, to AAA non crypto investor or, or do you know what? It’s a great question. I don’t know if there are more versus all of the other cryptocurrencies out of all the transactions as the denominator. How many are, are Bitcoin in the numerator? I’d have to look usually not a lot. So what’s interesting is a lot of people because um Bitcoin requires more energy like this is what happens, right? It requires more energy to send a Bitcoin transaction. It costs more to the users. Um They tend to move their funds using different networks. Um So even people have like Ethereum, which is more efficient than um Bitcoin. It gets kind of technologically. It’s, it’s, it’s not extraordinarily complicated. But what happens is like, you can take a Cryptocurrency like Ethereum and you can what’s called rapid. So you can have a asset that’s sitting on a different chain. So like, let’s call it solana totally different Cryptocurrency. Um You can have a asset sitting on the Salana chain that’s just pegged to the value of Ethereum. But you can move it across their network at which point you can then move it back on to like a the, you cash out the salon and you exchange it for a theorem. So people do that kind of stuff all the time, um where they’ll move Ethereum or they’ll move Bitcoin or other assets, but they’re moving it across other chains that use less energy because it saves everybody money. So I’d have to see the actual number. I think it’s a Bitcoin is, I think more than half the total crypto market cap. But I’d be shocked if it was more than like 10% of the overall network activity. Like I think a lot of people tend to move value on some of these newer cryptos that, that got a bit more efficient. But in terms of the total value, it, it’s, you’re saying a little more than half yeah, a lot of people park it, they treat it like a lot of people call it digital gold. Um It’s the least um the least volatile versus some of these other cryptos that just have smaller user bases and more kind of uh speculation on it. Um So a lot of people will kind of invest in other cryptocurrencies and they rotate back into Bitcoin in the same way. Some people rotate back into like cash or gold uh store value type thing. It’s valuable. You make all these analogies to the, the traditional, you know, the longest established um stores of value methods of exchange. No, because I think it’s comforting for folks. You know, it’s, it’s just like, you know, you promote stock gifts. You, you accepted, you decided to accept credit cards 40 years ago, et cetera, right? You know, there’s, there’s value in these analogies that are based on known understood uh exchanges of value. Oh, definitely. I mean, I wouldn’t understand. I have a political science degree. And the other guy that I found the company with was the crypto guy. Like he got me into it and like it took a lot of these types of analogies for me because I was like, it’s sounds like vaporware, it’s backed by nothing. It’s just like code based money. Like I don’t. And then he was like, no, it’s the double spend problem. It’s like, wait, this is the only kind of money you can’t counterfeit. He was like, yeah, I’m like, that’s very valuable. That’s interesting. And you can’t make more of it. Yeah. So it’s like, cool. But you could actually move it like you can move it like, instantly anywhere, like, yeah, and then you can write code that moves it around and it’s all, like I say, yeah, I’m like, this is ok, I get it. This is kind of cool. This does a lot of things that nothing else does. He’s like, yeah, that’s why people are buying it. They’re not just dumb. I was like, OK, it makes more sense. I, I, one quick thing on this, I listened to a podcast before starting the company maybe six months before where I’ve gotten into trading crypto at all. And I went on a trip with friends and which, you know, we drank beers and we were at the beach and I talked about 10 people out of ever buying crypto because I listened to this podcast and I was like, backed by nothing. It’s paper and I told everybody about it. Just traditional financial guys I was listening to and then eventually got into it and invested and like, never circled back with some of those people. And then they saw that we had started the company and the stuff we were doing and I tried to like, what the hell dude, why didn’t you tell me to buy this? It’s like quadrupled. And I was like, I was being gen, I wasn’t trying to trick you. I just didn’t get it yet. Not only why didn’t you tell us to buy it? Why did you tell us not to buy it? I was adamant before six months before you co-founded a company based on the, the exact, the exact store of value that you told people to avoid. All right, I needed to do some research. You’re a hypocrite. You’re a hypocrite. All right. All right. Leave us, leave us with some closing thoughts. Pat or, or maybe there’s something we haven’t talked about that. You want folks to know, I’ll throw that out first before closing thoughts. Anything, anything I didn’t ask you, maybe that you want, you want to talk about? Uh I touched on it lightly but it’s a timing thing. So, uh Bitcoin almost hit a new all time high yesterday, like the market’s done really well this year. So in a year where crypto is down, you have significantly less people who have appreciated assets uh to donate for that tax incentive. Like this year is uniquely good for that. Like we’ve had a huge recovery and are looking at new all time highs. Um And then the other piece is the end of year giving for crypto similar to stocks, um is even more extraordinary than um the end of your search we see for things like cash because they’re trying to get up against that end of your tax deadline. So a lot of these transfers happen in November and December. So the main thing is like, if you’re a nonprofit who isn’t taking crypto now is definitely the time to consider it seriously. Um You don’t wanna be like, we’ll look at this in February of next year just from a timing standpoint. Like it’s a really, if you’re at all thinking about it now is the time to like have a conversation and do a bit of research. Uh Just cause like for us, generally speaking, in that end of year window, it’s like 60% of our donation volume um in just a couple of months versus the rest of the year. So it’s a significant um fundraising opportunity. Ok. That’s a good place to wrap, I think because we’ve talked a lot about why do it, what, what the value is? Thank you. All right. This is the, this is the time, it’s the fourth quarter and values are very high. Pat Duffy co-founder of the Giving block at the giving block.com. You’ll find Pat on linkedin. Pat. Thanks for sharing your, your wisdom, your uh your expertise on this and uh your hopefulness. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is great pleasure next week, scaling altruism with Donald Summers. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms, blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor. Box.org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for November 4, 2024: Your One-Page Strategic Plan

Veronica LaFeminaYour One-Page Strategic Plan

In a lot of ways, we can see typical strategic planning as a flawed process. Veronica LaFemina shares a more collaborative endeavor, with more staff collaboration and stakeholder inputs, resulting in a more actionable plan with greater decision-making value. She’s the CEO of LaFemina & Co.

 

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And welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be hit with exophoria if I saw that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming? Hey, Tony, we’ve got your one page strategic plan in a lot of ways. We see typical strategic planning as a flawed process. Veronica Lahaina shares a more collaborative endeavor with more staff, collaboration and stakeholder inputs resulting in a more actionable plan with greater decision making value. She is CEO of LAFA Mia and company. Finally, we got Veronica La Finna. I’m tired of introducing her when she’s not showing up. She’s here. She’s here on Tony’s Take two Tales from the plane. A new captain’s briefing were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org. Here is your one page strategic plan. It’s a pleasure to welcome Veronica La Finna. She is founder and CEO of La Finna and company working with nonprofits and social impact businesses at the intersection of strategy, change management and strategic communications. She is a strategist facilitator, trusted advisor and certified Change Management professional. With nearly two decades of experience as a senior executive at National US Nonprofits and as a high impact consultant, you’ll find your company at La finna.co and Veronica is on linkedin. Welcome to the show Veronica. Thanks Tony. It’s great to be here. Yeah, it’s a pleasure to talk to you. We uh we chat a lot on linkedin. Uh This is uh this is much better. Yeah, it’s nice to have the chance to chat in person. Absolutely. After we met, uh we had a very nice lunch in uh in uh in Raleigh because you’re in the Raleigh, North Carolina area, right? That’s right. Yeah, it’s great here in the time and it was great to see you as you were passing through. So it’s always great to see other nonprofit folks in North Carolina. Yeah, I love it when, when social media can actually bring us together in person, which doesn’t happen too often. But as I’m traveling, uh it, it doesn’t sometimes does. Yeah, that was, that was a lovely lunch. You’ve got some thinking about a one page strategic plan uh which we have plenty of time to get to the details of. But, you know, let’s start more broadly. What uh what difficulties do you see with strategic planning? What could we be doing better? How do we avoid these things becoming lovely binders on a dusty shelf and that never get looked at again after, after their approval by the board. Yeah, I, so um I’ve been at this a long time and in the beginning of my career when I was doing strategic planning with organizations, um you know, you spend so much time on this beautiful process and you bring people together and over the course of six months, you develop these, these big ideas and these big goals. Um And I saw how much effort and energy and wordsmithing um would go into those plans and then I would see that, you know, it would get back to the organization and it’s crickets, you know, people are confused, they don’t know what’s going on or it just feels like this big pie in the sky Fairy tale and not actually something that we can accomplish as an organization. And so both as a consultant and then when I was working in house as an executive leader, you know, I’m a practitioner, I want stuff that works. Uh And so I started developing new ways of looking at strategy to say, like, how could we be doing this better if this isn’t actually getting us to where we want to go? What do we need to be thinking about? How can we make it easier for the people who work in this organization or the volunteers who are helping do um on the ground work actually accomplish what we’re saying we’re trained to accomplish. Um And so I think, you know, there’s not just one way to do strategic planning, which is a really important recognition. You know, I think a lot of executives in the sector have kind of been doing things in a similar way because that’s how well we were all taught many moments ago. Um But we’re now at this place where the speed of information, like how we get feedback from our communities and how frequently we can get that feedback is much faster than it used to be when we would, you know, convene people once every three years. Um our ability to make different kinds of choices because the technology that may be available to us or our ability to partner with other nonprofits in our community is a bit different. Like we’re not just creating plans for ourselves as organizations, we have to be really mindful of the context and the other partners in the space or others who are working to advance our issue area. Um And we’re not able to be everything to everyone. And so making sure we have a really clear understanding of our own identity as organizations actually makes a big difference then in what we choose to do and the kind of strategy we choose to pursue. So I talk a lot about, you know, the aim is not to build perfect plans, it’s to build strong strategy. And so how can we have a better understanding in our sector of what strategy is and how we use it, um, to achieve the impact we’re looking for, to raise the money we’re looking to raise, to, to bring that, um, impact to life. But how, you know, how can we be? OK, not getting an A plus on the perfect plan process and instead focus on strategy that sticks and it works and gives us the kind of impact we’re looking for. Uh let’s flush out your meaning of strategy because the, the prevailing sentiment and not sent the prevailing professional opinion is this needs to be a binder. It’s gonna be all kinds of tabs about, you know, the five year plan, the 15 year plan, uh the staffing, the, you know, the programs that we’re gonna expand or move into the partnerships that we’re gonna have, you know, this is so to reduce this to a one page actionable strategic initiative plan, it’s still a, it’s still a plan, it just doesn’t have 100 and 75 pages. It’s, it’s reduced to uh to 1, 175th of that. So, so that uh so you’ve, you’ve hit on strategy a couple of times. So what, what, what, what’s your sense of uh strategy? Yeah. So, so at its heart, right? Strategy is a series of interconnected choices about what we will do and what we won’t do to achieve our goals, right? So I sometimes will write that like when I’m doing workshops or presentations as strategy is vision like where we headed plus the decisions that we want to make to get there. Now, that doesn’t mean we have infinitely documented choices or all of the details or task lists in place. What it does mean is that we have enough information, agreed to and documented so that we can keep applying that strategy when new opportunities arise. So, you know, often what happens with those long documents is they become a task list instead of a way of understanding how we work in the world, right? It’s a good strategy, you know, and I, I will also say um the main audience for your strategic plan is your staff, right? Or the people who are doing the on the ground work in the organization and that’s a little bit different, you know, we tend to or in the past, we wrote plans with our funders in mind and with these other, you know, audiences in mind. And that’s great if we want to inspire funders or get people excited and behind our cause. But if our staff doesn’t know what that strategy means or how to execute it, um if it doesn’t make sense to them, then it’s not gonna happen. So we’ve just kind of sold a false dream of where we’re headed. Um So being able to instead really document key choices about who we are, who we serve, where we’re headed what we’re gonna focus on to get there and what it will look like when that success happens, it gives us the flexibility then to make great choices when new opportunities or challenges arise, that we might not have been anticipating. And I think a lot of organizations if you look at um at the COVID pandemic, right, at this moment where there’s a lot of clarity about how much we can’t predict about what comes next, right? None of us is a fortune teller. We don’t have crystal ball. Um And you know, certainly if I did as a strategist, that would be wonderful for me because I could tell organizations do exactly this and that’ll work for you. Um But it became clear that we needed to better understand what is our way of doing this and of making the impact we want in the world. Instead of here is a list of all the programs and, and tasks we do as an organization. So are you describing a process that’s more staff driven or at least staff pa participating more? Because II I to go back to the, the prevailing way of doing this is more like at the board level, at the C suite and board level. Yeah, I’m, I’m a huge advocate for staff being quite involved in strategy development for a couple of reasons. One is staff are living this every day. They’re seeing what’s working and what’s not working. They, they have the real time feedback from the community or the people you serve. And so their uh the internal wisdom of the organization is really important. You know, our board members play such an important role in governance and in enabling um the success of the organization in a number of ways. But most of them have day jobs or have other things that they’re experts in and focused on. And so to ask them to be responsible to make choices that will drive the operations and way of working of the organization is not super fair to them as board members, you know, they need to be involved in the process, but we should be involving staff and their expertise um from the beginning. Um I’m also an advocate of the fact that um sometimes when we go out and gather input from our community, we are doing it with good intention, but we are not necessarily honoring our community’s time, right? So we’ll go out and we’ll do like a big survey or, or deep dive with them on all of the things that they need or hope for or would love to see change in the world. And we as an individual nonprofit may only touch a tiny percentage of that, an important one, but a tiny thing. And so when we’ve asked them to spend all this time with us, sharing everything they need, and then we come back to them when the plan is fully baked later saying we’re only addressing this one little thing and we we it’s a mismatch of expectations and reality. So I think there’s opportunity in our strategic cleaning processes to start with our internal wisdom. Like what do we already know? What do we know about ourselves? Our strengths, our role that we play in this issue and use that to put together some informed hypotheses about where we think we should be focusing over the next several years and then go take that out to folks and talk to them about it to say, what do you think about this? Does this make sense to you? What are we missing? What are we getting wrong? But giving our community the chance to engage with us in a process where we’re setting more realistic expectations about where we can play and contribute as an organization. But also then giving them more say in, yeah, we’re, we’re on board for that. That makes sense. That will actually help us, right? That’s something that we’re looking for or listen. I know you guys want to do this, but that’s no one cares about that, right? What we need instead is this and that gives us more useful uh feedback so that we’re valuing people’s time and their ideas and insights in a way that we may not be able to do or haven’t necessarily been doing in how we’ve been doing that process previously. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location. So you can grow your impact faster. That’s Donor box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers, just like you a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability your organization needs, helping you help others visit donor box.org to learn more. Now, back to your one page strategic plan. You said the audience for this is primarily the staff, the people doing the work. They’re clearly they’re contributing a lot to the, to this process, to this plan. They’re in the process developing the plan. Um What, what is the role of the board then? Because we’re, we’re shifting from what again, I’m going back to the typical, you know, there’s a weekend uh board retreat and board members spend as much of their time as they can at this retreat. It might be off site even uh to try to get people’s attention and, and keep them away from distractions. You know, we’re gonna do this two night thing or, or it’s on or, or we’re in the office and you come as you can and the people miss miss the introductory section, but then they come to the, the fundraising part, you know, it’s so, I don’t think it’s ideal, but that’s the, that’s, that’s the, the most popular way of doing this. Right. The board bangs something out in over two days. Uh, what, what is the board’s role in, in the way you, you work? Um, so I’m going to answer that question. But isn’t that wild Tony that we, that, that’s the prevailing process, right? We spend two days determining our future for the next 3 to 5. I have a couple, a couple of, a couple of outside speakers, but it’s, and maybe a fil a hired facilitator. Um But yeah, you know, and, and it’s, it’s, I don’t, I don’t think it’s a very informed process, uh because you’re talking about community, you know, community input, you know, so they might get, there might be a speaker, maybe, maybe a 45 or 60 minutes speaker comes from the community. I don’t know somebody on the town council or maybe it’s uh an agency head that works in the area that your nonprofit works. But, you know, we’re, we’re kind of, we’re, we’re like, we’re assimilating all this stuff and then we have to think about how to pay for it as well for the next 10 years it seems, or even just five years, I’ll be, I’ll be even, I’ll be fairer to this typical process. It’s only 55 year plan, but still, you know, like we’re banging this out over a weekend. I, I just don’t think companies, you know, companies work this way. I mean, they spend a lot more time thinking about the next five years than two days of, you know, join us whenever you can over the weekend. Yeah. I mean, it’s just, it’s, and so that’s part of why, um, it’s a partnership, right. So, so I’m not saying the board is not involved. The board is very important, right? They need to be, they have governance responsibility. They need to be excited and for it and behind what we’re doing, but it’s a partnership. So retreats shouldn’t just be board members right there. I listen, I still facilitate retreats where it’s primarily board, but I really encourage organizations that we at least need the staff leadership on board. So if you’re a smaller organization, that might be everyone on staff, if you’re a large organization that might be department heads or division leaders. Um But we need those leaders involved and able to correct misconceptions which come up often, right? In these conversations, um We need them available to talk about what’s working, what are our most effective ways of achieving the impact that we wanted to achieve thus far? Um But also what are we really good at, you know, part of, you know, you brought up like corporate strategy. So in a corporate environment, you don’t see strategy um come to fruition where we’re building something that we are not at all equipped to do, right? So in, in a sense of um like an organization that or a company that is in tech, for example, right? They’re continuing to build on their core capabilities and say how can we keep leveraging these core capabilities with new innovations to build a new product line or create a new service line? Right? They’re not like all of a sudden gonna go into agricultural production, right? Like like but in nonprofit world, we because we are are, you know, givers because we’re trying to take care of the whole humans, right? That are um part of our community that are part of, you know, the issue or disease area that we serve. We sometimes start creating programs that have no overlap in operational efficiency or in our strengths. You know, we, we put out stuff that is an aspirational, that we’re actually not well equipped to run. And so then we keep make like all of our investment financially, then it starts getting thinner and thinner because we’re having to fund all these different kinds of operations instead of really understanding, hey, what are the skill sets or capabilities or operations we’re great at? And how can we keep using those leveraging those building on those to deliver better services or better value or better, better advocacy, whatever our mission may be for the people who are, are cause we serve. And so that’s why that staff board partnership is really important because staff leadership can say here’s actually what we’re really good at, you know, the things that we do better than anyone else, the things we’re able to deliver efficiently or effectively. Um And that we think there’s opportunity to grow. Um staff are also really essential. Um There’s an exercise I do in strategic planning that I think it’s a big gap um that we have in the sector right now, which is I ask leaders, you know, what it could be, executives, could be, board members could be both together to really think about what is our organization’s role in the cause we serve in the issue area. Um And often what happens is we come up with a list of 25 different roles. It’s really hard to be 25 different things really well. And so I ask organizations and leaders to think about what are our three main roles that we play. And the reason that’s important is because who we are shapes, the choices we make about how we’re going to get to our goals. And when we, I I sometimes use a transportation analogy to talk about it, which is to say like if you, if your goal is you’ve got to get from Washington DC to San Diego in the next two days, there are lots of ways to make that happen, right? Not, not infinite possibilities, but lots of different choices. You could make plans for how to get there. You could, you know, hitchhike, you could, you could fly, you could take a bus, you could do a lot of different things. But what will help you make the decision about which route to take is knowing. Are you, do you happen to be a commercial pilot with access to a plane and you can get people there quickly that way? Do you happen to be a bus driver with intimate knowledge of all the routes and the best places to stop? Right. And that’ll get you there. Do you happen to be neither of those things but resourceful and know which partners can help you along the way? Um Because a pilot can drive a bus, but they’re not going to know all the bus routes, right? And a bus driver might be able to get a plane down the runway but not up in the air. And so knowing those roles that we play has a big impact, right, on the choices we make about how we’re gonna get to where we go. I can see how staff are, are important to uh you mentioned, you know, clear up misconceptions on the board. You know, I can imagine a board thinking, well, we do this so to, to provide this additional program or service, it should be very simple, you know, they’re, they’re so close and then you find the the staff member who says no, that they’re actually as much as your intuition may lead you to believe that they’re so close and this would be so easy, you know, we can’t, we can, your intuition is not, is not, right. And to do that means bringing in, I don’t know, additional funds or a new person or, you know what you’re, you’re making a, you, you’re making an incorrect uh assumption about how easy it would be for us to expand what you think is slightly. So these misconceptions, you know, that, that um that even, even the, even the senior leadership may not appreciate but the people doing the work or the people leading the teams doing the work, you know, to them, it’s it comes, it comes instantly to mind, right? And that’s not to say we don’t want to be bold or ambitious, right? We still want to share that vision of what’s possible. We need smart choices, we need to be realistic too about what this conversation, you know, if the conversation is going awry about how simple it would be to do. Uh b because it looks so closely related to a to all the people who don’t do the work of a, you know, then we need to straighten out the conversation and lead it the right way just so, you know, that you’re understanding, well, that means an additional staff person actually because we don’t have anybody skilled in what you’re now talking about. So that is roughly an $80,000 a year job plus 30% for benefits. So we’re now talking about fundraising for roughly 100 and 20 100 and 10, 100 and $20,000 that we don’t currently fundraise for. So, and we made that expectancy from a program like that for 3 to 5 years because we need to build it and make sure we have the right partnerships and resources in place. So it’s the the operations have to inform the strategy, it can’t be done separately. You know, I think sometimes something that happens often is um strategy gets confused for new, right? So what are the new ideas? What are the new things we’re going to do instead of recognizing that strategy is about being really good at getting to where we wanna go accomplishing our goals. And so, you know, when you think about companies that have been placed and in place for a long time, organizations have been in place for a long time. And it’s very clear like this is what they do at their core, they haven’t stopped doing the thing they’re great at, that’s still the base of everything, you know, but they may innovate, they may expand, they may choose a new direction to learn in. Um But they’re not abandoning the stuff before. And so sometimes when strategic plans focus so much on what’s new and leave out, you know, the core aspects of the work, then we have even a bigger divide right between, how are we supposed to accomplish all this when we don’t, you know, we’re, we’re still trying to accomplish this main thing we’re known for or best at or most capable of. And so I find that bringing those bringing staff and board together do a lot to help us have shared expectations, instead of really divergent expectations about where we’re all trying to head together and the kind of impact we want to have, it’s very collaborative uh versus being top down. Um You, you have three critical components to strategy that you think you see most nonprofits. Miss, let’s talk about these. What are these? So if you think about again, sort of the the general process, right, with traditional strategic planning and what we produce at the end of it, right? We end up with our mission vision values, we end up with our goals and the strategy is to achieve those, we might have specific objectives within um that, that align with those strategies and then the tactics um we may have also thought about the budget it takes to get that done. Um But there are, I find are a couple of key areas in there where some additional important detail can really make a big difference in us, not just having a, a big long task list, but instead a way of understanding how we’re going to work and being able to apply those decisions going forward. So the first is when we think about who we are, right, that’s typically expressed as mission vision values that we, we talked about this a little bit already, but knowing our role and stating it clearly is so important and like sometimes organizations will say they want to get really inspirational here, right? They’ll use language that is, that feels really good to say and feels really good to hear. But then when our staff member has to make a choice about an opportunity that comes across their desk and say, is this a fit for us that inspirational role is not as helpful as something concrete? Right? And so, um there are lots of different roles we can play as organizations, but knowing that we are an advocate and convenor rather than a direct service provider, uh is a big difference then, and what kinds of programs we’ll undertake in the way that we’re hoping to change the world? Um So that’s the first one is having a clear understanding of our role in our mission area and the issue or cause or community we serve um or in the lives of our constituents. The second is, you know, we set these big audacious goals. Um And again, if we’re, if we’re doing well, we have financial goals as part of that. Um But there are two areas that we don’t always define that I think are really helpful for a lot of organizations. So one is um being explicit about the investments that we are intending to make. So if we need to, um if, if we need to hit a certain financial target, if we’re going to introduce, you know, some new programs or some new focus areas. Um or we want to be building skills or capability in a certain area. We’re going to need to make investments and it’s not just, hey, we need a new CRM, it’s we need a new CRM and we also need the training and ability to help our team get great at using it, right. So being really thoughtful about articulating what the key investments are to make our overarching strategy possible. Um The other part up there too, um It is what do we want to learn? I find a lot of organizations spend a long time, not entirely knowing what works and what doesn’t work with what they’re doing. So they may have programs that have been running for a long time and they serve a certain number of people and we, you know, get our, our output metrics from them each year, but we’re not entirely certain which parts of them may or may not be working. And so when we know what works, that’s great. And we want to document that when we can identify stuff that we’re pretty sure isn’t working and we want to leave behind that’s good too. But usually there’s this gray area of like what we’re not sure about, right. And so being able to set some learning objectives so that we can gain more clarity on those is important. So those might be related to um we want to learn if the way that we’re delivering this program is um is as effective or more effective. You know, like, let’s say we’re launching a digital component. We want to learn if that works better than how we’ve been delivering this in person in the past. Or we want to understand um if this technology or marketing approach or fundraising approach is helping us get to our goal faster than an alternative, something along those lines. But just being clear about a, we do need to keep learning these things. And b what is it, we were specifically are going to try to learn, understand, get more clarity on over the course of this, this plan. Um And then the last area, you know, is like how we’re going to get there, how do we get to these objectives? What are we focusing on? And so um with those focus areas, um it’s important to, to find owners, right? So sometimes what happens is as an organization here are three pillars and we’re gonna put an equal number of initiatives or priorities in each of them. And then we go on to the list of tactics and things along those lines. Um I encourage organizations instead to think about what are we focusing on over the next few years. Um And doing a brief narrative description of that. So we can have more clarity instead of just like a one word pillar um and defining, you know, so who’s the lead on this and it could be, if we are an organization where we have pretty tenured staff, it could be a specific person or it could be a department um or area of the organization because again, opportunities and challenges will come up and someone will need to be the decision maker or have ownership over how will we need to adjust as things come up over the next few years? So being able to say yes, everyone’s contributing and working towards these focus areas. But this is the person or the department that has um a the accountability to move this forward. But b also the opportunity to make decisions when those decisions you make. Um And so that creates a sense of ownership and accountability and momentum that sometimes gets lost from like the energy of announcing a new plan to then putting it into practice. It’s time for Tony’s sake to thank you, Kate. There’s a new captain’s briefing that I’ve been seeing at the beginning of uh some flights that I’ve taken. And I wanna thank and uh congratulate and shout out these, these captains who have done it. I usually fly Delta because I’m near two small airports. And most of the flights from those two tiny airports are are Delta flights. Uh And these captains have been, this is tails from the plane, by the way, I hope, you know, this is not tails, it doesn’t sound like tails from the gym, right? This is tails from the plane. I forgot to say that these captains have been getting out of their captain seat and coming out of the cockpit and they face us, they’re looking at us from the galley. That’s, you know, uh, the front galley and you can see them as they’re saying, you know, we’ll be cruising at 35,000 ft and might have a little turbulence on the climb out. But, uh, you know, it should be smooth after that and uh, et cetera an hour and 25 minute flight. You know, that briefing, I like seeing the captain. It’s just uh a little bit more reassuring. I, I mean, I, I know they exist because I hear them in the average briefing, but in these ex extra special briefings, uh you know, you get, you get to see the person, you get to see the person who’s flying, you who’s in the, who’s in that left seat, that captain seat. It’s, uh, it’s just comforting. I find very comforting. So I, I did let Delta know on uh X Twitter that uh, I appreciate it. Uh And um I’m sharing it with you. So let Bravo. Bravo to the captains who get up out of their chair and come and look at us, look at us in the eye and give us their captain’s overview. Thank you very much. And that is Tonys take two K. I would like to, I mean, when we fly, when you and I take my first time to go flying. I know that they do that because I would like to know who’s, uh, I was about to say, driving the plane, whoever is flying the plane, like you said, I think that adds more comfort and see it’s reassuring. We’ll, we’ll get you up there. Yeah, just so, it’s not like, I think my fear. Have you seen the, um, the cars that drive themselves? Like the no driver cars? Yeah, I’ve seen those prototypes. Yeah. My fear is like, that’s gonna be our future with like airplanes and all that and it, like, freaks me out that it’s gonna be like A I cars and A I airplane. Yeah, I can see it on cars. I don’t know about airplanes. I, I think that’s a, that’s a, that’s a bridge too far. I don’t think anybody is gonna be comfortable with an, with an nonhuman piloted, uh, uh, air flight. I don’t think so. I think that’ll be going too far. Well, we’ve got vu about those more time. Here’s the rest of your one page strategic plan with Veronica La Finna. I, I, I’m distilling these, I think down to what, what’s our role, mission vision values? What, what do we use? This, this relates to the list of 25 where we need to call that down to two or three things that we do best our role. Um, what do we want to learn and what investments do we need to make and a what do we want to achieve? How are we going to achieve it and who’s responsible, who’s accountable? Ok. Ok. And you know, if you want more detail than that, just rewind and listen to Veronica explain for the past uh several minutes. But I’m just trying to, I’m just calling down to our, to our three. Ok. Um, I, I’m, I’m not here suggesting now that this is something that most organizations miss and, you know, like you should make it four, not go from 3 to 4. But, um, do, does fundraising, you know, the, uh, the funding that’s gonna be necessary. I mean, it sounds like it’s built into the three, I think. I, I think you, you, you talked about investments but, you know, do we need to increase our fundraising staff or, you know, we, we don’t want to just say, ok, well, the development team, uh, they’re gonna be responsible for a new, uh, 100 and $75,000 that they’re not now raising, but they’ll just, uh, have to do more with less or, you know, the, they’ll just have to find, find the extra $175,000 for us to achieve that, that we’re gonna need to achieve what we just, what we just laid out. I mean, how, how does funding all? Yeah, so, so in the goals we set, you know, we should have meaningful financial targets, right? So that might be revenue, it could be revenue pertaining to a specific area that we’re trying to grow. So, you know, it could be, hey, we really a key investment we’re making is in plan giving and we are expecting at, you know, whatever time in the future for that to pay off or, but in the meantime, maybe there’s another area. So yes, that’s definitely part of our targets, right? Is what kind of um financial situation we need to achieve to be able to do this work, but also in the focus areas, right? So three or four focus areas um I prefer that to pillars because pillars sometimes get stuck around programmatic work. Also pillars that give you this um like this feeling that they all need to be the same height and they’re static, right? That we need it, they all require equal investment or care. And that’s just not true in how we work as organizations. So um I always say that at least one of your focus areas should be on operational um or culture work, right? So that is exactly what you’re talking about with. We may need to hire more people, right? So if we’re going to achieve this, we may need to hire more fundraisers or we may need to recognize that this is a build over time where we will need to be bringing in funding so that we can hire more program staff and fundraisers and marketers and whoever else we need to get that done. Um I think that, you know, some people are like, well, the operational plan is different from the strategic plan. But again, uh the strategy is not useful if it can’t be operationalized. And so making sure that that focus on operational or fundraising or, or strategy or sorry, operational fundraising um or culture work is seen in that same level of prominence and priority that our program focus is um is really important to having a successful and sustainable organization. How does the process go, you know, logistically uh when you know, how many meetings do staff and board have together, do you try to condense it into, you know, AAA month long process or does it take longer? And there are iterations as we learn more about, you know, where, where we want to go uh as we make decisions about what, what, what our, what our three key roles are. How does the, yeah, just logistically, how does the process go? It’s different for every organization I’ll say. So, um some of it depends on what resources you have available, what time you actually have available to get it done again as a practitioner. I’m like, what’s going to actually work, right? So it’s not about um a perfect process, but it is about what, what do we need to make this happen? And so sometimes for smaller organizations, um the process looks like me doing a workshop with their board and staff and teaching them about this process and how it works and then they’ll go back right and do a draft and then we’ll come back together and look through it and talk about it and, and uh see where we might need to improve and keep going, then they might go to their community and get feedback and go. So it is more of an innovative process, right? We’re not trying to present this big perfect thing. We are trying to say, how can we bring people along in the process but do it in a way where they’re active contributors to the end product um for other organizations that might need a more extensive um time to get feedback from their community or key stakeholders. Um It, you know, we’ll start in the beginning again with like um some work around. Let’s get our, let’s get what we know on paper, right? Like, let’s not start from scratch, let’s talk about what’s been working, let’s talk about, you know, things that we may need to change or keep the same. So some organizations are, are set with their vision and mission and their values, you know, we might spend some time saying does this still feel true? Is there anything we need to update or make um more meaningful or understandable to people? But then we’ll often spend time on. OK, what’s our role and what are the things we do best and how does that shape our work so that we’re starting to document what we already know. Um So that we can then start to say, where do we need the most feedback? Where is it that we’re not sure? Or we could really use um some different kinds of perspective in this? And so that may mean that next, we’re going to um talk to a broader group of staff, if it’s a larger organization, right, we need more impact, input and feedback beyond kind of maybe the initial planning committee group that involves staff and board members um that might then give us some ideas about how to revise and then we may take that to these stakeholders or to members of our patient community or cause community and, and have facilitated conversations with them about, you know, here’s, here’s who we are, here’s what we’re thinking as we look to the next several years, but we want we need to hear from you to make sure that makes sense and that’s the kind of, you know, service or program or support that you’re looking for and expecting from us. Um And then being OK if they say actually none of that, right, we have to be, we have to be OK being vulnerable a little bit and, and coming to them and saying like this is a work in progress. Here’s where our thoughts are so far, but what will make it better and stronger and the kind of thing that can drive real impact is your, your insights and your input. And so it becomes an iterative process. That then means we can also say, ok, here’s the plan. But if we have to be flexible or revise or adjust, we’ve already started this kind of iterative conversation and connected conversation with our community and our key stakeholders where they’re in on it with us, right? They’re part of what’s going on. And that means that we have a, a better, more meaningful strategy, right? That actually is likely to lead to results and we’ve brought people along the way. So we’re garnering support, you know, from the people we serve, but also the people who power our organization, you know, either with volunteer hours or their funding um or in their connections to other kinds of funding streams as well. I think you’re a very patient practitioner, you must be just the way you describe it, but also the, the process that, that you help nonprofits through. Uh Yeah, I just see, I, I just hear a lot of patience. Well, thanks. I, I hope so. I think too it comes from change management work, right? Which is we don’t just say here’s the plan and all of a sudden we flip a switch and it happens, you know, people, any change requires us to go through a process of letting go of what came before and being ready to begin and accept what’s new. And so if we design strategy or plans that are built with humans and mind, we’re more likely to go farther with impact over time because we’re actually designing it for the people who are going to power this thing instead of designing it for one big pr moment, right? Or one big round of talking to our major donors that then we are not able to deliver results because we didn’t build it in a way that we could actually do it. Yeah, actionable again. Um All right. So we come together through this process which does sound iterative and learning and being vulnerable along the way. Um How strict are you on the uh the one page limit? I suppose we need a page and a half. Is that all right? Is that, is that OK? Well, I mean, I even like I already expanded the margins out to like half an inch, you know, on all four sides and I still can’t fit it on, we still can’t fit it into one page. Um You’re flexible on the one page a little bit. I am, I think, I think a one page template and approach is valuable in helping us like have the behavior of making choices, right? Because sometimes what happens is, oh, well, we’ll do all of it, but we only need three pillars. So let’s shoehorn these things together that don’t make sense together, right? The the aim is like there are trade offs, there are things you are not going to do. And so the point is, you know, not to have a gimmick in one page, but to put ourselves through the exercise of, if we really had to boil it down to what’s most important, you know, and, and when I was an in house leader and on all the teams I’ve ever led a big part of my philosophy is permission to focus. I think if we enable ourselves to focus, especially in a time when there’s so much that could pull your attention to new or shiny or different. But when we enable ourselves to focus, that means we practice and we get better and we keep delivering impact because we’re staying, you know, we’re kind of staying here instead of trying to spread all of our energy out all over the place. And so, um so when it comes to one page, right? It’s the, it’s the exercise of choosing, you know, and can we look at what’s on there and say that we’ve left something out. That’s, that’s another part of the exercise is to say. So, in looking at all this, what does it mean? We don’t do? And a lot of organizations that’s hard to define or sometimes it’s really small and that’s OK, you know, like I had a client that was a um a really impressive animal welfare organization. They’re doing incredible work that is modeling, you know, um approaches across the country and they get asked pretty often to bring an adaptable pet to elementary schools for presentations, right? And one of the things that they were able to say we don’t do is that’s some, that’s not something we do. You know, we are trying to change policy across the country by modeling what it looks like in real life. Um So elementary school students, while we love that they care about animals, they’re not one of our key audiences. That’s not the way we’re trying to change the world. Um And so it can seem small, but actually it saved them so much staff, time and energy. They had, you know, standard email response for how they handle those requests. And so it saved, you know, a lot of just time and staff being away for that and having to make the plans to do it in a safe way. Um But also just the mindset and energy of being, being given permission to say like I can say no to this because I’m focusing on these other things. Permission. Yeah, permission to focus when you say permission to focus, I think of institutional discipline. Uh But I’m not trying to co op, I’m not co op, I’m not trying to replace your, your, your thinking. But it’s a, it’s a, it’s discipline. It, it’s, it’s a, it’s a discipline but it’s a f it’s a focus. It’s, I’m just using a different phrase, same thing, same. Um But yeah, and, and to not. And that’s a tough one too because you don’t want to appear heartless to elementary school Children. How come you’re not helping the Children in our community? You know, they want, they want to relate closer to, to, to animals around them. And how can you not help our, our school Children? So it’s very, I mean, but it’s, and that’s, that takes an emotional toll, right? And in our sector, so many people who work in the nonprofit and social impact space, we want to say yes, we want this to be like a beautiful world where where everyone is getting their needs taken care of. And so it’s not always easy to say no, right? And, and it, it could be a situation like that. It could be a situation for staff members where like a director from a different department all of a sudden has a new idea and is excited and wants people to get on board for it and you know, being an organization and a leader, you know, of that department that’s able to say no, like you have my permission to focus and if someone else is asking you to pull focus for something else, like send them to me, let’s talk about it because it needs to, we need to keep staying committed instead of getting really energized by a new idea and feeling like we’ve got to act on it right in that moment, right? We need to spend the time saying, how does this fit into our strategy? Does this align with our role? Is it in line with the investments we intended to make? Does it connect with the focus areas we’re trying to drive forward? And if the answer is yes, then it becomes. So what else do we need to stop doing then so that we can create the capacity to make it possible? As you said, permission to focus. Where else do you want to go? What, what else do you want to talk about this uh this process that I haven’t asked you about? I think I just would put it out there for folks that um different organizations need different approaches to strategy and strategic planning. So there are organizations that very comprehensive processes involving, you know, broad community input. Um And you know, could be a year 18 months in the making that that’s the right choice for them again, based on their mission based on where they’re headed and based on how they interact with other nonprofits or government agencies in their area. So I am not telling you to throw out processes that work for your organization. What I am saying is that um if, if your strategic plan is coming up, you know, it’s expiring and you’re getting ready to start something new, asking yourself what you need most for your team to be able to drive impact, right? And for you to be able to speak clearly to funders and stakeholders and supporters about what you do as an organization. Um you can be open to these other ways of working. You know, they, it doesn’t need to be just the same taxing expensive process of putting together a plan that then sits on a shelf. So it’s, it’s more um I hope, inspiration and hope for um nonprofit executives that there are other ways of doing this, right? And there are ways that can be a better fit for your organization. Um And it’s ok to explore that it’s ok to be the person who brings that to your organization so that you do get something that provides value for you and your team that helps you and your board be better connected and aligned. Um You know, having done this process with organizations, uh one of my favorite conversations with a board member afterwards was, you know, we’ve been, we’ve been doing this for 15 years. You know, we all have good relationships, everyone’s working hard, but we knew something wasn’t quite working and how we had done these processes before. She’s like, I can look at this one page and I feel more clear about where we need to be focusing our time and energy than I have in 15 years. And so, you know, knowing too that um everyone, everyone is looking for that clarity and that ability to understand where we headed and where we go, where are we going. Um And so it’s o it’s ok to step into a new way of working. Veronica. La Finna, her company is La Finna and company at La finna.co. I suggest you connect with Veronica on linkedin. We’re connected, we chat a lot. Comment a lot. Thank you very much Veronica. Thank you for uh a new way of approaching the way you’ve been approaching something that uh for a lot of nonprofits just is, is, is not working, is not actionable uh is not helpful in decision making. So, thank you very much for sharing all this. Thanks for having me, Tony next week, accepting Cryptocurrency gifts with Pat Duffy. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor. Box.org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martinetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our wealth guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 16, 2024: Board Members Are People Too

 

Judy Levine: Board Members Are People Too

One size fits all rules may not make sense for your board, especially if you’re embracing diversity and equity in board membership. Judy Levine is a longtime board coach, trainer and consultant, and she led Cause Effective for 17 years. She’s now an independent consultant. This originally aired August 15, 2022.

 

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And welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d suffer the embarrassment of pseudo cholesteatoma if I had to hear that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s up this week? Hey, Tony, we have board members are people too. One size fits all. Rules may not make sense for your board, especially if you’re embracing diversity and equity in board membership. Judy Levine is a longtime board coach trainer and consultant and she led cause effective for 17 years. She is now an independent consultant. This originally aired August 15th, 2022 on Tonys take two tariffs, 101 were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box. Fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor. Box.org here is board members are people too. It’s a pleasure to welcome to nonprofit radio, Judy Levine. She has been executive director of cause effective since 2006 and she has over 30 years experience as a nonprofit management advisor at cause effective since 1993. And as an independent consultant, she has trained and consulted with well over 1000 nonprofits on issues in fund diversification, donor engagement and board and organizational development. Cause effective. Is that cause effective.org Judy? Welcome to nonprofit radio. Thank you. I’m pleased to be here. Pleasure to have you. Uh I’ve had your colleagues through the years. Uh Greg Cohen and Susan Comfort, who I know Susan is completely retired now and Greg is mostly retired now. They’ve been sort of stepping stones to the top now. We have the executive director. Ok. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Here I am. I’m good. My, my apologies, Susan Comfort is someone else. Susan Gabriel is who used to be at uh at cause effective long time and, and Greg Cohen, you’re concerned about uh equity on boards. Uh But at the same time, you know, we’re trying to maintain standards, but we want, we want a diverse board standards, don’t always apply to all the, all the different cultures we’re inviting in, help me, uh set this up. Well, there’s always a fear of the difference, the difference and uh then also a fear of um acting inappropriately around the different and those two fears, um sometimes stop a board from real honest, um, an accurate reflection on what’s at the table and what’s the most appropriate way to support the organization’s mission. Um And especially, you know, ever since the racial reckoning of 2020 the understanding on nonprofits parts that they needed to reckon with their own d eib diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. Um My sense is that, that, that ha that, that reckoning has happened on a staff level at a different, different pace than it’s happened on the board level. And some of that has to do with fundraising and people’s fear that if they rock the boat, they will not have the fundraising return that they have now. Um And I’m here to say two things. One is that there is plenty of uh salaried capacity in this country for people of color, although not as much, uh not as much wealth accumulation, certainly generational wealth accumulation. And that’s a very real factor. Um So to think that you need to diversify your board, that you need to reach into the client base, which may be true, but is not the only way to diversify your board from the uh the group. It has always been ok. Are those the two? That’s, that’s number one. The other is that yes, you may have to rethink the one size fits all package. And that’s been a mantra in our boards is that everybody has to hold the same standard and that we know that everybody is the same standard and we don’t want double standards or triple standards. Um I’m here to re help people rethink the idea of universal standards versus standards that make sense for where that person is coming from and what they can, what they can actually bring to the table if they do their best. Ok, le let’s take the first of those because there’s, there’s an imp, there’s an assumption there that people of color are not gonna be able to meet our fundraising expectation. So we’re gonna have to, we have to reduce our board giving to invite folks of color in. But that, that, that’s, that’s just unfair and unfair and racist. Um You, you’re not, if you’re not finding these folks and you’re not looking hard enough for people who do have the means uh to, to meet your, to meet your, your board expectation or your board fundraising expectation and, or you’re not looking um at the right messengers and, or you’re not understanding why your cause is going to be a deep personal interest just to a person of color. Um All of those factors have to be there. Um You can’t, you don’t ask anybody on the board, you don’t ask somebody on the board uh of an animal shelter. If they have no connection to animals, they don’t care about animals, you gotta look. Uh So in the same way, you have to understand, let’s put it this way. There are, there are legacy charities, um the Urban League. Um You know, it’s very that, that there are huge fundraising machines, there are people of color that um there’s a sense of the ownership that this is ours. Yeah, that may not be in your board as currently constituted. That needs to be opened up. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a holding on to, that’s a holding on to power and structures and not allowing someone who looks different comes from a different background into our, uh, our playground. Well, and it’s more than not allowing, it’s actually, um, it’s more than just a not doing, it’s something that you have to actually do do, um, is to understand, um, how, who makes decisions? Is there an in group and an out group? Is there a biting one’s time, uh, ethos, um, which doesn’t work well when you invite people of color on and then they have to buy their time and they’re the only ones that are biting their time. And yes, it might be historical that everybody else made their time years back but people are gonna lose, lose, you know, they lose patience. So it means that you have to do much more rapid, um, leadership development on boarding and power sharing. Then your board may be used to. Yeah. All right. II, I don’t, I don’t want to derail what, what, uh, what we were intending to talk about, but I just, I think it’s all of the, well, I mean, I think it’s important to point out the, the, the implicit bias that goes along with this, assuming that you’re gonna have to lower your standards basically. Just assuming you got to lower your standards if you left people of color in and I, I think it’s all of a piece and it’s about who is and who was a guest at the table and board members, all board members need to be owners, not guests. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And yes and not treated like guests. All right. All right. So, one of the things you said is that, um, one size fits all is not, uh, is not gonna be the right model. Not necessarily. So what, what’s, what’s an alternative? So if we’ve got a, we’ve got a, uh, $15,000 annual give, get board requirement. Uh, and, and two thirds of it has to, has to be from your personal, well, your, your personal asset. So $10,000 from you and if you want to either give or get the other 5000, you have an option there, but you have to give at least $10,000 a year. One of the things that I talk about that took me, you know, frankly, you know, a while to understand is the role of generational wealth transfer in people’s capacity to have disposable income. So that, um, you know, uh, oftentimes white people come from, they’re, they’re not necessarily coming from money, money, but they’re coming from a position of, um, comfort. Um, and so they’re not necessarily carrying family members, they’re not, they’re not pulling their family out of poverty along with them. Oftentimes certainly black people who are in a um may make the same salary, but they are carrying people in their family. And so you can’t say, oh, this person makes X salary and that person makes X salary. Therefore, they have the same capacity. You only find this out by talking to and listening to someone and I a universal give assumes universal capacity. And yes, we say, ok, just give us a floor and everybody should go over the floor. We all know that people rise to the floor. So the question is, is there a way to help this person get and to change that relationship and or is there what are we, what are, what we are after on the board? Someone who is using their connections for the to the extent for the organization’s behalf and what comes in is relative to those connections and the capacity. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money but also supports you in retaining your donors, a partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location. So you can grow your impact faster. That’s donor box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers. Just like you a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability, your organization needs, helping you help others visit donor box.org to learn more. Now, back to board members are people too. All right. So we need to, we need to get to know our board members. Uh And, you know, uh I, I understand your point. You know, some folks may very well be supporting, helping other family members, not necessarily out of poverty, but uh I mean, it could be, but not necessarily out of poverty, but they’re, they’re, they’re helping other family members that aren’t doing as well as they are. And, and a lot of that can, a lot of that can very well come from the lack of intergenerational wealth through the generations that, that, uh, folks of color got screwed out of essentially. All right. And I still want to go back to the fact that, you know, this, I don’t want to operate under the assumption that you have to lower standards just to invite folks of color lowering standards onto, onto your, onto your board. Well, lowering fundraising, fundraising standards, but it’s not lowering, it’s broadening. Right. Well, I don’t wanna work, right. I don’t wanna operate on the assumption that you, that you have to lower standards. Right? That’s what I’m trying to defeat that assumption. Yeah. Ok. Ok. Um, all right. So what about the, uh, what about the push back the, well, before we get to the pushback that you might hear from your white board members about how we’ve been doing this for so long and it’s been fine for us. So why can’t it be ok for them before we get to that? What might, what might some of this look like? What, what kinds of, what kinds of, uh, activities can, can folks do if they, if they can’t meet the, they’re not able to meet the, the give get requirement? Are you, are you suggesting rewriting? Do we rewrite the, the expectations for all board members or I’m guessing using that as a starting point? Not an ending point? Ok. So that’s a starting point with each board member um about their, how it relates to them, to their assets, to their relationships, to their circumstances. Um And where, which areas they can go above and beyond it and which areas they need to, to uh pull back from and everybody’s gonna have a different answer to that those equations. The fact is that they are, you know, I’ve been on boards with very mixed income levels and the people who had the higher incomes understood that in order to have a board with mixed demographics, they had to do more weight pulling in the fund gathering. Mhm. That, that was part of the value system was that it was not. If they wanted everybody equal, they would have everybody just like them. If the value system was to have different voices at the table, then the value system had to be that some people did more direct fundraising and direct giving and some people did more outreach and some people did more political convers, you know, conversations et cetera. Ok. I wanna make sure we wanna be having these conversations with uh these individual conversations with potential board members. Right. We’re before we’re in the recruitment process, before we invite someone to be on a board or before we accept someone to be on a board, we want to be investigating these things. Yeah, so that they know what to expect so that they know what the expectations are and we know what we can expect. II I, you know, having done a lot of board recruitment uh with nonprofits through the years, I would say two things. I, I think you have a co before as a recruiting, you say, here’s the kinds of things that board members are expected to do. Um and um you know how these rest with you um and you’ll find out some of them are scary. Some of them are, you know, oh, I couldn’t do that. Some of them are like, oh, this, I could definitely do that. I don’t know that I would pin someone down to an exact um prescription you trying to get their temperature. Yeah. But you know, it’s a courtship process and so people go above and beyond what they thought they could do when they’re really excited by the mission and they’re given the tools they didn’t know they needed. So uh in the courtship process, I would put this menu out and say, you know, how does this look to you? How could you see yourself in this. Um, but I wouldn’t take that as the last word because the board service should be, uh, people should be going into places that are not comfortable for them. And that’s partly the role of the board chair is to, is to live that by example, it’s not just to be good at what they do, but to live by example, I tried this and this was, you know, I thought I was going to throw up, but actually I didn’t throw up. I did really well at it and then I tried that and I did throw up. So I, you know, somebody else will do that one from now on. Um And so I want to be honest with people, but I don’t want to pin them down to something they’re not being ready, ready to be pinned to. OK? But you, you make a good point about board bird service being uh a challenge. You do want, you do want folks, I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re leveraging the fact that they love your mission, your work, your values. They stand beside you with that in, in those ways. Um You want them to, to be challenged, you want board service to be meaningful. Yes. And you, you want them to learn something from it because that’s part of what they get out of it. Isn’t that just a happy club? But that they’re gaining a different kind of sense of themselves of what they’re capable of. Interesting, different sense of themselves, what they’re capable of. Yes, challenge. That’s the challenge. That’s the challenge. Go beyond comfort zone. Try this and see whether you throw up or not. Right, kind of. But, I mean, you need to try it with a lot of, um, support and, and with the tools, throw somebody into the lion’s den. All right. What about the, uh, the pushback from white board members that, you know, we’ve, we’ve been, this has always worked well for us. We’ve always had this very rigid, uh, uniform giving everybody’s given the same through these years. What, why, why do we have to now? Wwwww. What, what’s the advantage? Why, why should we change now? Ok. So I need to be polite here. Um, no, you can be firm, you can be firm and realistic. You don’t have to be a lot of counseling of white folks. And I think it’s part of our, um, job as white folks to help other white folks to a different place. All right. So don’t be, don’t be soft on nonprofit radio listeners. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll admonish you don’t do that. Um, it’s 2022. We know stuff now as white folks that we didn’t, that we were able to be blind to for hundreds of years. Sort of the comfort of being blind to. Yes. And, um, we don’t anymore. So there’s a moral obligation to act differently. Our nonprofit is, is, is here for the public. Good. And it, it, we believe that to do that, we need to reflect the full spectrum of voices that is that public and or should be concerned with our mission. That means that we need to have a table that is really welcoming to all those voices that they’re not just here, but they’re actually, we’re gonna share the ownership of this mission. And that does mean that we need to pull apart the stuff that we’re comfortable with. And that’s unspoken because it’s gonna be a mystery to somebody who doesn’t come from our background and it was already part of this. And what’s the advantage to the organization? Let’s make it explicit to doing this. We are living our values in our governance and if we’re not, that’s pretty um compromised. Um So one is congruence with organizational values and what we’re here to try and carry out. Um The second is sort of more robust conversation and decision making because there are different points of view at the table because it’s not people with UN, it’s not an entire crew with the same assumptions. And frankly, you’ll have more interesting conversations and it’ll be a more interesting club to be part of. That’s not why to do it, but it’s a side product. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you, Kate going a little different this week. Uh Because a subject I know about is in the news, a lot tariffs uh, I know about it because it’s one of the few things that I remember from my economics degree at Carnegie Mellon University in 1984. So I’ve forgotten a ton of micro and macroeconomics. But, uh, tariffs stayed with me and they’re in the news a lot that, uh, and the media doesn’t seem to explain them fully. So I would like to take a minute to do that. Uh, tariffs, what’s a tariff? A tariff is a tax on goods that the United States imposes on goods that are imported into our country. And of course, you know, other countries impose tariffs on uh goods that are imported into their countries. But, you know, we’re talking about it from our perspective, but our, our government might do this to help an industry, like suppose you wanted to help the wine industry in the United States. You might put a tariff on wines that come from maybe France and Italy and Spain or something like that. Or if we want to help the washing machine industry or the auto industry, we might put tariffs on washing machines that come from maybe China or Mexico or wherever they might come from. Same with cars could be just certain countries or we could say putting a tariff on all of the cars that come into the country from whatever country they come from. We might not pick individual countries. We might just say all the, all the cars that come into the United States are getting an additional tax, a tariff because we want to help our US uh, auto industry. Right. So it’s kind of protecting industries. That’s why they’re used and they’re also sometimes used for punishment. If we’re angry at another country, we might impose a tariff on that country’s goods. What that does is whatever the reason that we impose them, it raises the cost of these goods because there’s an extra tax added to them. And so that hurts the, that hurts the goods that hurts the companies that are bringing the goods into the country, right? So these tariffs are imposed on the companies, right? I mean, we might pick a country but the tariff really is paid by the uh by the, by the company that makes the good and ships it into the, into the United States and who pays the tara. This is the part that I don’t see explained adequately in the media. We pay the tariff, we, the consumers pay the tariff. It’s a tax, it’s added to goods and companies routinely increase the cost of their goods that are imported into the US to reflect the cost uh the increased cost to them because the the tariff is now gonna cost them more money. So they pass that cost on that additional tax on to us, the people who pay to buy the goods, the washing machines or the wine or the car. A tariff is not paid by the foreign government, whether whatever government, Italy Spain France, China, wherever, wherever we’re imposing a tariff on imports from that government is not paying the tariff, we’re paying the tariff and then the money gets paid back to the United States government from the companies that make the goods that are tariff and that are imported into the US. Ok. So the US government does get money, that’s the tariff, but we’re the ones paying it. We pay it to the company that make, made the goods and then they pay the tariff to the United States. So like lots of things, the ultimate cost of these gets passed down to us, the consumers and of course, we have nowhere to pass it on to do. We, we, we can’t pass it on. There’s no passing the buck beyond the consumer. So I just want everybody to understand who is paying tariffs when the United States government gets tariff money. Where’s it coming from? It’s coming from us, the consumers and that to take two K, that was tariff 101 with Professor Tony Martignetti. Uh I don’t know about professor like uh adjunct adjunct lecturer, adjunct lecturer for a half a ha uh for like 20 minutes on tariffs. Maybe I could, maybe I could expand a little bit. So like one third of one lecture, Adjunct lecturer, Tony Martin. I I wish all my lectures were that short in school? That insightful is what you mean? Insightful. Well, you put a lot of information in a short amount of time and I think a lot of professors could learn how to do that as well. That may be. Yeah, I, I, right. I’m not, uh, particularly verbose unless I’m having some fun with, uh, verbosity and, and, uh, word smithing. But, uh, otherwise, yeah, I’m, I think I’m pretty, pretty to the point. Yeah. Well, we’ve got VU, but loads more time, here’s the rest of board members are people too with Judy Levine. All right. So that sort of answers. Uh, dumbing down, you know, we’re not, we’re not, we’re broadening. Yeah, we’re broadening. And there are advantages. What would you say to folks that are the advantages to them personally learning, learning, learning about, uh, uh, learning from folks with different backgrounds? There is an incredible gift to be, had to be able to listen. I’ll say this personally as a white person working in a diverse environment. Um, it is humbling and awe inspiring to be in a place where you can really hear from people who didn’t, who are just like you and have them change your mind and open your mind. That’s what you gain by being in a diverse environment. And not only will you make better decisions for your nonprofit, but you will learn more and be a kinder person who in and of itself understands the way you interact with the rest of the world in a different way folks, if you want to see a diverse team, then, uh, pause the podcast and go to Cause effective.org, go to their team, uh, team or staff page and look at the, look at the pictures of the, the, the, the, the staff at Cause effective.org and then of course, come right back and press play again. Don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t start browsing, you know, don’t go to amazon.com too. Just look at Cause effective.org and you’ll see uh enormously diverse team there. Um All right. So, you know, that that’s anything more you want to say about wh why this is worth it for the organization or for the people. Um We live in a diverse world. I mean, you know, no matter where you are, um we, we live in a world in a country certainly. And in a world with lots of different kinds of people from lots of different kinds of backgrounds. They bring a lot of different things to the table and that are really interesting to interact with um what better way to interact with them than in the support of a cause you love so that there’s, you know, you’re all putting your, you know, shoulder to the wheel together. Um It, it gives you your life spice to be doing this in a way that’s not ho homogeneous and your organization itself will be stronger. Yeah. In the ways you just, you, you talked about a few minutes ago. Yeah, you you have some ideas about, uh, how to do this. Uh, it, it sort of efficiently shave, shave some, some time off. What? Well, one of the things that, you know, we all know that executive directors, well run boards, executive directors are behind them kind of every step of the way. Um, but in boards that really take off, there’s board to board conversation that the executive director kind of monitors but is not board of every conversation. And so, and when that happens, it’s because there are, there’s not just a board cheerleader, but there are many leaders. So there are leaders of governance or there might be a leader of on boarding or there might be a leader of uh you know, there, there’s different ways to chunk it up so that it, there’s leadership at the uh which leadership leads to ownership. Um And so part of your job as the board liaison, whether uh is to understand what that web of relationships could is and could be and then to do in essence what we call, you know, hr staff development, but with board members, so you ask them to take on certain things and then your job is, is being a coach, not being a doer. We, we’re talking about the, the CEO executive director now. Yes, sir. Yeah. And, and the development director also development and, and working closely with the board chair means it, it’s gonna help enormously to have a AAA culturally sensitive board chair. Yes. Um I send board members, especially white board members to trainings and not just what is de I but to real immersive, you know, one or two day trainings about the, how this culture rests on has rested on um racial injustice. Um I say if you’re going to be part of this organization, you need to have this basic understanding. Um And we need you to do this two day training and, and here’s, you know how to pay for it. Um Because there’s a basic understanding of that, that really shifts in those kinds of very immersive trainings. I’m not talking about a two hour what hr does at a large corporation. Um And, you know, we just said these are our values and you have to really get it. If you’re gonna be part of this team, I would certainly do that with board leadership, but this is a journey and this is part of the, and, and we want the board to be part of this journey and we need the board leadership to start it out. And if the board chair won’t do that, you do a succession plan, it’s not like you kick them out right away. But ultimately, a board is not gonna progress until you have somebody at the head of it for whom this is the air they breathe. Hm. Now you can have a chair and a president, you can have an honorary chair and an honor. You know, there are all kinds of ways to move people to the side that don’t, you know, kick them off this planet. But ultimately, you need to have someone who does, who, who breathes this stuff and who you don’t have to explain why this matters. And then it’s deeper than going to a training to understand what implicit that, that exi implicit bias exists. Right? One of those two hour trainings, ok. Say a little more about joyful board service. What we, what we can aspire to. I, I, you know, I get this so often where board members, the boards that we’re working on, they’re, they’re niggling, they’re going after, you know, do I have, you know, is it 2000 or 3000? What do I have to do? That’s the question as to what, as to, you know, it’s like I’d like to get away with as little as I can. Um And, and it’s an imposition on me as opposed to I will do everything I can. I may not be successful at everything, but I’m gonna give it a shot because this mission matters so much. And if I can help it, God willing, I’m going to and there’s when people are at the table with that attitude, there can be a joy at both delivering yourself and seeing other people deliver and celebrating that. Um And you can build that in, you can build in celebrations, you can build in you know, balloons for somebody when they hit a certain mark. Um, you have to build in not just, um, the actual dollars, but you can build in. They made thank you calls and they never talked to anybody before. You know, there’s all kinds of ways to build in a sense that I can do be part of the fundraising process, which then builds more courage for the next step. But it doesn’t happen unless you think about it celebrating small successes. That’s, that’s a terrific idea. Yeah. And you wanna build in this, this sense of, for, for every board member so that they are looking for ways to celebrate each other. Mm. So it doesn’t just come from you the CEO, it doesn’t just come from the board chair but that they are trying to help each other up that ladder. You like to see board members uh, socializing outside. I mean, I, I can presume your answer but I want you to say it socializing outside, outside the, the form the board meetings. Iii I do but I also am realistic. Um, I don’t think it’s necessary for them to be personal friends. In fact, I’ve been on boards with people who are personal friends and it’s tough. Um, because then they kind of talk about things outside and there is like, becomes factions. You certainly don’t want, um, relatives on the same board that I’ll tell you right now. Um, not just married but brother and sister replaying the, you know, the childhood, you know, I’ve seen it all I can see in your face and it sounds like you’ve been there. Yes. Um, the b, I don’t, I think that people have to like each other. Yeah. And I think you need to have some social places. You know, it’s been hard, don’t they need to get to know each other outside the board? Um, but that’s different than, um, going outside their board service. I mean, maybe not, maybe not necessarily to me that’s part of their board service. Ok. Um, that part of their board service is, understand, you know, it’s team building and the organization can facilitate that. Right? I mean, can we have, can we host drinks or dinner after a meeting? Yeah. Um, it’s, that’s one of the things that’s been much harder in zoom. Um, my part, you know, cause back of itself as a nonprofit and they had a board dinner once a year, but they should have at my house and one year I had the flu and they had it at my house anyway. And I just went to bed and they, they stayed up till like midnight and cleaned up after themselves and left, um, that we miss. So we have a game night now, once a, once a year on Zoom because it’s once a year everybody comes and they do all kinds of like 322 and a lie and all kinds of stuff, but it’s not quite the same. Um, we did have an outdoor picnic this summer and about half the board came. Um, yeah, it’s hard, you know, that’s the hard thing is now getting people out of their shell because we’re all used to now doing everything by Zoom or going to work and coming home and, you know, scurrying home. What Zoom has that? I haven’t quite figured out is that time before meetings, that time in the middle of meetings, you know, those the times of the after meetings, those kinds of times when people would talk to each other about their kids, right? Building that in um what we’ve done some of this in the, you have to do it in the middle of the meeting because people run out at the end of the meeting and they won’t come early no matter, they say, you know, two board members will come early, right? Um But if you break into smaller groups in the middle of the meeting, even if it’s only dies or triads and give them something to discuss. Um You know, one of my provocative questions is how does your birth order affect? Um the way you take on leadership, which gets into all kinds of personal background, it assumes strength and it gets people talking to each other. So having a section like that in the middle of each board meeting can help people to start to bond and then obviously changing the, you know, changing the groups up. Yeah, and making that group uh a hint, make those small groupings deliberate. Don’t just leave it to the Zoom Universe to deliver the development. Yeah, you can either make them random or you can assign people to be with, with other, with other people and the assigning is, is much better. Yeah. Yeah, I’ve done that in some of my trainings. Um uh What else, what else you wanna touch on around this, uh this equity and equity in boards and, and inviting folks in and joyful board service. Um Welcoming notion of enlightened self interest, which I think uh it has to do with understanding the uh the meaning of your cause to people who are not directly affected by it. So, you know, when we’re teaching fundraising, we’ll say um OK, you don’t fundraise just for the people who have direct interest to your cause because that’s your clients. And if you could raise your money from them, that would be earned income and you wouldn’t be a nonprofit, but you can’t raise money from people who have no connection to your cause because it doesn’t make sense to them. Why are they gonna lie on it? And that’s the same thing with board members. You can’t ask board members to fundraise if you, they don’t feel connection to cause and, or to audiences that don’t feel connection, but you have to find the enlightened self interest, which is myself as a member of the city, this neighborhood, this grouping that I care about Children, having a head start. That’s why you’ll often find like a mom’s group in Westchester suburb in New York that’s fairly wealthy. Most of it um will take on fundraising for a program in the quote unquote inner city because they understand the meaning of this work for Children even though it’s not their Children. And the reason I’m bringing this up is because that’s where the ownership comes in the sense that it’s on to. It’s up to me to make a difference for this and that this matters to me even though it’s not my personal experience. And I think that’s group conversations, it’s conversation in the courtship process and then it’s group conversations at the board level to keep that fresh. And it has to be deliberate because it’s the board service devolves into finance monitoring. Oh, yeah, if it’s right, if it’s allowed to discussions about why the mission matters to whom does the mission matter? Beyond just the direct recipients are very inspiring and they give your board members personal uh you know, nurturing and the tools to go out to their contacts with different kinds of language. And you will often find, you know, I’m looking for areas in which different people can be experts, not just the people who have a lot of board experience or who are, you know, long time experienced fundraisers, but that people with different points of view can have the position of being an expert. Hm. And this is where you will find points of view that your classic cabal has not thought of conversations. Yes, I love how you pause and, and think through and then make your next point. Uh, I’ve just been talking to you for, uh, 40 minutes, whatever, 35 minutes I, I’ve learned. All right. Give her a couple, give her a couple of beats because uh she’s got, she may very well have more to say, I love you the way you reflect. I, uh I, I don’t have that gift. I tend to be more, more impulsive and II, I spew everything out in one shot. Well, that’s why you’re on the radio and I’m not interesting to, um, you know, I, I wanna, having served on a board, you’ve been on multiple boards. Not that many because I take it really seriously. Yeah, but it’s been more than one. Yeah. Um, and then being a, an executive director myself and, um, being a consultant of board gives me humility about, about the possibility of board service. Um And I feel like, uh people who are only on staff have expectations, uh and anger when board members don’t meet their expectations. Whereas I’m trying to say it’s human nature to triage the kind of people who will agree to be on a board are often fully committed. I don’t wanna say over committed because you commit to what you commit to and it makes sense for them to do what they have to do and not more because there’s always something else calling on their time, let alone, you know, the idea that they might wanna play golf or read a book. If you do that, if you understand it, that that’s rational, human behavior, then you don’t get as angry at people, you manage them that everyone’s gonna triage that they’re gonna, they’re gonna assess their priorities and they’re gonna, and they’re gonna act accordingly and it’s up to you to have a dialogue about that. It’s not that you, you know, there’s something wrong with letting people slide or something, but it’s um it’s understanding and helping them understand how to fit in with all the different priorities of their life, right? And where does this mission fit in, in your, among your priorities? Right. You know, it’s why I, I um when, when I, when groups do uh board member, um the contracts or whatever they call them, um I suggest that there actually be calendars in there so that you, somebody can say to you, I can’t do that in June because my twins are graduating high school. In which case we say, you know what, we’re gonna take you off of that and we’re gonna take you off of me so that you can have a very because they’re not gonna do it anyway. Yeah. And then they just stop returning your phone or they don’t respond to emails. So having respect for all the different po pos rationally on board members, time and life and energy. Yeah. And then helping them understand how to fit this in, in a way that makes sense. All right, let’s uh give you, I wanna give you a chance to uh talk about cost effective because it is a nonprofit. It’s a, it’s a consultancy for nonprofits. They’re advisors, consultants. What, what uh what, what’s the breadth of the work? And how do, how do you work with, with your client nonprofits? Well, I, you know, I’d say we are 40 this year, we are about to celebrate our 40th anniversary. Congratulations for decades. Um And I’d say that the common theme throughout has been changing how organizations are resourced, um changing the balance of money and therefore power in the sector. Um And it’s both increasing it and increasing it so that it’s not just that the most well resourced nonprofits get more resources but that it’s nonprofits that are located in disenfranchised communities and the people who work there and um uh and volunteer there are able to raise the money, they need to further those causes um And to govern themselves because to me, governance is integra apart, it’s more than just raising money. But if you don’t have AAA governance structure that works, you’re not gonna have a fundraising structure that works on the voluntary level. Um and that’s where you get to organizations where the staff fundraises, but the board doesn’t and the volunteers don’t. Um So we have, we work, we do a lot of cohort work where we’re looking at the development directors of color and we have um working with them over a six month period of time, um in a particular program that we have to help them really address um the barriers to their being, being successful and not only to talk about it but to actually address it. Um We, so we do a lot of individual coping with, with, with um executive directors who may have come up through fundraising and, but, you know, you need to do it if they need it. It is not part of the fundraising structure. The organization is only gonna get so far. Um, and board members, a lot of board consulting, um especially now with boards that know they need to diversify and don’t really like, they know they need the composition, but they don’t and they don’t necessarily know that they need to act differently to have different people in different seats. Um We do everything from, you know, eight hour retreats on Zoom, maybe six hours uh to year long coaching engagements to what we call deep dive um transformation, which is a lot of times people come to us and say, well, my board won’t fundraise and we get in there and we start talking to board members and we find out there’s all kinds of reasons. It’s not just that they don’t know how to ask for money, but it’s that there’s not financial transparency, there’s not, um, a real partnership between staff and the board. Um, there’s not a peer to peer accountability on the board. Um, there’s a, in a group of three board members who do everything and everybody else slides. Um, you know, there’s all kinds of reasons that we will help. We will actually go in and help address. We say that that’s a symptom. My board won’t fundraise and there are, you know, many, many causes of that and we will, we, one of the things we’re known for is that we will go in and address the cause. We’re not just gonna do the tactics. Um, we also do a lot of fundraising consulting for groups that, um, have had a lot of government support or a lot of foundation support and know they need to diversify and they don’t necessarily have, you know, a Lincoln center board. Um, but it is very possible that people around the country or world will care about what they do and will back it up and want to make it happen if they, you know, for one of the things they say is that in fundraising, the one thing that’s, that’s um limited is time. There’s only 24 hours and maybe one second or maybe now two seconds in the day. And so you need to make choices that are smart with how you spend your fundraising time, money is not the limiting factor, but time is. And so we’ll help groups really understand what are the likely avenues and how to structure the resources they have to reach those days. Get longer. What was one or two seconds? It actually they did make a ruling and there’s like they added a second or something. Oh, I didn’t hear about that. I, well, I’ve been squandering my, my two seconds a day. For. How long have we had this? How long have we had these longer days? Go look it up. Six months. Yeah, I don’t know how many seconds that is. I can’t do the math that fast. No, but six months is 100 and 80 days. Times two seconds. 360 seconds. It’s a good six minutes. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I squandered. All right, I’m gonna try to get it back right now by cutting you off. No, no. All right. Thank you for explaining. And, uh, thanks for a frank conversation. Yeah, we don’t, you know, for our, for nonprofit radio, uh, white listeners. Uh, we’re not, we’re not, uh, we’re not going easy and you have to have, you have to have honest conversations. So, thank you. Yeah, I, I think this has been some of, you know, I’ve been in this field for 30 years and this has been some of the most rewarding and deep work. Um, it’s not surface, it really addresses, you know, I had to go back to everything I assumed from my childhood on and understand that there’s, there are different realities and that, um, it’s not that I can go back and change it, but I can change my behavior going forward so that I further a different kind of future. Mm. She’s Judy Levine and she’s the executive director of cause effective. Uh you should have already been at their website because you would have seen their diverse team when we uh when I suggested take a pause and then you came back. But if you haven’t been there or if you don’t remember where it is, it’s at. Cause effective.org and Judy Levine. Thank you very much. Thanks for sharing. Thank you. It’s great to have this kind of conversation. Pleasure. Next week, Professor Russell James returns with the right words and phrases for fundraising. He got sick and couldn’t record for this show. I know you believe that you believe the guy he comes up with, he comes up with uh I lost my voice. No, we’ll, we’ll have them next week. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor. Box.org. I love that alliteration. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. You’re with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for July 1, 2024: Use Your Tech To Enable Generosity

 

Jamie Mueller, Peter Genuardi & Natania LeClerc: Use Your Tech To Enable Generosity

Our panel encourages you to expand your definition of generosity and how you measure it, to better acknowledge diverse forms of giving. They help you facilitate generosity through your data, tech and business processes. They’re Jamie Mueller with PTKO; Peter Genuardi at See the Stars; and, Natania LeClerc from Feeding America. (This was recorded at the 2024 Nonprofit Technology Conference.)

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And welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I am your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. I apologize for the distortion you’re gonna hear in this recording from 24 NTC. It’s especially in the, the last segment, but kind of throughout uh it was much worse and I, I had to edit out some parts because you just couldn’t understand what was being said. I, I kept in what you could hear over the distortion. So, uh just I, I forgive me for the distractions that you’re gonna hear in a few places in today’s show. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be stricken with dysphagia if I had to swallow the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming? Hey, Tony, continuing our 2024 nonprofit technology conference coverage. We’ve got use your tech to enable generosity. Our panel encourages you to expand your definition of generosity and how you measure it to better acknowledge diverse forms of giving. They help you facilitate generosity through your data tech and business processes. They’re Jamie Mueller with Tko Peter Genuardi at see the Stars and Natania Lalai from Feeding America on Tonys take two Jim attire were sponsored by virtuous. Virtuous gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools. You need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow, giving, virtuous.org and by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org here is use your tech to enable generosity. Welcome back to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of 24 NTC. You know that that’s the 2024 nonprofit technology conference. This conversation kicks off our day two coverage. We are in Portland, Oregon at the Oregon Convention Center and we are here sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Kicking off our day two with me are Jamie Mueller, Peter Genuardi and Natania Le Claire. Jamie is Chief Growth Officer at Ptko. That’s papa tango kilo Oscar for those who like the phonetic spelling. Ptko Peter Genuardi is founder of see the Stars. And Natania La Claire is Director of Strategic and Integrated Planning at Feeding America, Jamie Peter natanya. Welcome. You did your session yesterday and your session title is use your tech to enable generosity. Uh Let’s start right here. Uh Sitting, sitting next to me, Jamie, why don’t you explain why, why the session was needed? Why, why uh what, what we could be doing better in the, in the community about uh, about the session topic. Yeah. Well, Tony, as you, well know, we’re seeing a decline in individual donors, right. Um, and we have some very uh generous people that are kind of making up that difference in the 1% and that is not a sustainable model for the industry. And so we’re really trying to figure out what is it that is decreasing fundraising or dollars coming into organizations. And, you know, the Generosity Commission has done a great job at uh looking at what makes people be more generous, what um encourages people to be generous. And so we wanted to have a topic that really explored all the realms of generosity and how they interconnect together and create a AAA pipeline for dollars to come in uh by way of volunteerism, advocacy and um just giving up time and influence and how our tech can better enable us to identify those indicators of generosity so that we can be more prepared to ask more of um the individuals that want to support our missions. Ok. You mentioned the Generosity Commission. I don’t, I’m not familiar with that. Yeah. So the, so the Generosity Commission is a group, a coalition of individuals that come from Stanford and a number of other uh uh um think tanks in the area. Um The Giving Institute is involved in that as well and give usa coalition. And so there’s been a number of studies that have been done over the that have looked at and explored through different colleges and universities and think tanks. This role that generosity has to play in our society, is there a report issued a report recently, a number of reports 2022 was the latest report, but there’s actually been a longitudinal amount of research that’s been done. And over, I mean, as you probably can imagine, volunteerism is a key indicator of uh of donations in the future. And um also advocacy and just overall relevance to somebody’s life and the way that they are being generous in their everyday life um can be an indicator of future generosity. And so how are we actually identifying those behaviors that people are naturally displaying in their everyday lives as being generous opportunities and then funneling that into the dollars that organizations really need to in order to, you know, further their mission and their capacity. OK, I see. And uh Peter, part of what you talked about in your session is expanding the definition of generosity, which Jamie was just alluding to how, how, how should we be redefining generosity? Yeah, that’s a great question, Tony. Um I think there are two ways that we should really look at it to help organizations just be more productive and engaging and getting more from their audience. The first is what Jamie alluded to, which is really taking a look at, say, Tony and saying, OK, today we really see him as a donor, but we know that he, you know, um volunteers that he is actually seeking services from us, that he is doing so many other things with us, but we’ve hyper focused on just his value to us as donors. And so we need to expand that. The other piece I think um that’s really important is expanding who we think of as people who can be generous to our organization. Um I’ve done a lot of work uh for and with direct service organizations and the vast majority of them really see those as two separate audiences, the people they serve and the people they raise money from. And so the more that we can think about a holistic uh relationship with people uh with the people who come to our organization to seek services, but also to support us in the future, to volunteer creates just a, it, it lets us expand the tent and draw more people into those who could support the organization in a, in a bigger and more holistic way. OK. So I, I’m, I’m, I’m stereotyping and generalizing with both of which are dangerous. But I think the stereotypes, I don’t know, I think they’re, I think they’re not valid. I think they’re ubiquitous that those of us, those who come to us for service are, are whether it’s feeding and of course, we’re gonna get to Italia Feeding America um or, or sheltering or, um, you know, I’m, I’m something of the, the, the the personal type of services that those folks aren’t just don’t have the, the capacity, capacity, the means to, to be donors. And I don’t think we think of the future, but we think of now they just don’t have the means. We’re, we’re wrong headed. I would say yes, I think with direct service organizations for sure. And I’ll let Natania um, tell us a little bit more about that. I think one of the, one of the organizations that actually does this really well is the American Heart Association. Um Several years ago, my dad had a heart attack and we need to get some help from the Heart Association. They gave us great advice and guidance. Um You know, after uh my dad got sick, he passed away, we made a contribution to the organization as donors and now as somebody who’s 47 and, and needs some support myself, I’ve gone back to the organization for information and that sort of thing. And so the way that they have thought about engaging me across this whole cycle of things where I’m a service uh beneficiary as well as a donor as well as somebody who will probably leave the money when I pass. You know, it’s that kind of long term thinking and holistic relationship that I think is really a productive model for many, many organizations. It’s time for a break. Virtuous is a software company committed to helping nonprofits grow generosity. Virtuous believes that generosity has the power to create profound change in the world and in the heart of the giver, it’s their mission to move the needle on global generosity by helping nonprofits better connect with and inspire their givers responsive fundraising puts the donor at the center of fundraising and grows giving through personalized donor journeys that respond to the needs of each individual. Virtuous is the only response of nonprofit CRM designed to help you build deeper relationships with every donor at scale. Virtuous. Gives you the nonprofit CRM, fundraising, volunteer marketing and automation tools. You need to create responsive experiences that build trust and grow impact, virtuous.org. Now back to use your tech to enable generosity. Natania. You’ve been doing a lot of nodding as uh as Jamie and Peter were talking uh whether you want to share your experience at Feeding America or you wanna, you wanna think broader about this expanded definition of generosity who’s capable? Yeah, I think I just wanna touch on the fact that it is a stereotype that the people that we serve and that are in service uh would not be contributors, financial contributors. We find time and time again that our best supporters are our neighbors and the people that have received the services from our food pantries, our food banks and, and the network at large. And we even tell stories of our neighbors who are now volunteers at these pantries. Um So they see the direct benefit of the service they received and the value that they get from that and want to immediately give back and, and turn that into more that, that ripple effect of continuing to give to others who now need. Um which is, you know, it’s a beautiful thing and we’ve started to give them a platform as well, not only through our storytelling and um you know, not being the mouthpiece for the, for the movement, but really allowing our neighbors to be the voice of the movement and, and telling us what they need in order to thrive. Um So that’s one way in which we’ve been generous. But I think, you know, in terms of expanding the meaning of generosity, um you know, I think the big um the sound bite that I wanted to bring from yesterday was I think, you know, not that you need to throw out technology in the whole process, but that you can start from a place of ignoring the drop down menus that you have in your technology and, and not trying to categorize generosity based off of the constraints of what’s in front of you in, in whatever platform you’re dealing in, but go out and talk to people about what is meaningful to them, about giving to you um in the ways in which they want to give and then try to build systems that can track that in a, in a way that is, that helps you understand how invested they are in you are, are there other constituencies Natania that, that we should be thinking about? Besides those of us who are uh service beneficiaries, are there other constituencies? We should be expanding the definition of generosity to I think. So, I think uh you know, there’s advocacy for sure. And I think there’s also folks who um who want to create their own fundraisers or they want to give in ways that are not currently in our structures. And really what this is about is giving people the opportunity to, to support you in the ways that are meaningful to them. That could be a number of ways and a number of platforms. And one of the things that we kind of ran into some friction in, in the conversation yesterday was, well, you know, how do smaller organizations that don’t have the resources and um the means to adopt all these platforms and run all these programs and just, you know, try anything under the sun, you know, what are we supposed to do? And um you know, really, what, what we, our other um compatriot who’s not here today was, was able to contribute was, you know, pitch it to your leadership as a test start. Say it’s a test of trying out a new platform, a new way of um you know, tracking the, the ways in which people support you and then see over time if it gets you um exponential results, Peter can we talk a little about using technology because your, your, your session topic is use your tech to enable generosity. Now, Natania just referred to the inadequacy of the current drop down menu uh menus. I’ll just, I’ll just pluralize menu and this way, I don’t have to think of another noun. So the inadequacy of the, the drop down menu, how should our tech be integrated into this expanded definition of who can be generous and how folks can be generous. Yeah, I mean, you, you’ve kind of opened up this Pandora’s Box and I got, I’m afraid I’m afraid that my friends who work at software companies here are listening to this podcast and I hope they are. But um I’m gonna be critical of us as an industry for a second. I think Jamie um by coordinating this session really got this topic out on the table for us and it’s being had at, you know, all levels of organizations um in all the departments. But here at the, the technology conference, you know, we have to be a little critical of ourselves. Um I’ve worked for a couple of software companies that have made online cr MS that help with email and fundraising and advocacy and volunteer registration. And I have to tell you, you know, the place where those platforms are the most mature is when it comes to uh seeking money. So whether it’s getting people to convert more often on donation forms or to hit them at the right time with an email that gets them to open their wallet. That’s all well and good. And that’s important. But I think, um, don’t stop there. That’s right. We’re not, we’re not expanding beyond, beyond the, the simplest. That’s right. And so, you know, as a senior ranking Marxist at this table, I don’t really know if I’m the senior ranking Marxist. But I would tell you that my goal is to take all of this technology that we use to get people to open their wallets. Um All of these tools of late capitalism and flip them on their heads. So how do we use the tools that help us advertise to find people to draw them into the fold to provide those social services? Can you imagine if we lived in a world where direct service organizations brought the same kind of discipline and technology to serving their population as they do to raising money? Um I think that’s where we’re going to see a lot of research and expansion in the next couple of years. Be a little more specific about the software shortcomings. What’s the ideal for you? You know, I’ll give you a good example. Yeah. So here it is one of the organizations that I work with, we help them find about three quarters of a million people to put into and lead to their job training programs every year. Um Part of that challenge is that we’re trying to reach them with advertising tools that find people who are over 50 people of color, primarily women, lower education, lower banking rates. And those tools for advertising are optimized to find rich people who have money to spend on discretionary stuff, whether it’s buying a TV or donating to, uh, a worthy organization. And so we’ve had to come up with really innovative ways to identify people who meet those criteria, um, because they’re not optimized to find people with lower income, lower discretionary dollars and that sort of thing. And so, um yeah, I’m not sure, I’m not sure how we do it. I think we have to do our best to take those tools that exist that have been built by very smart people and get them to really deliver a human service and make the world more compassionate, diverse forms of generosity is essentially what we’re talking about. So, Jamie, you were, you were the impetus behind this, this session. Don’t be ashamed. It was, it was, it was my fault. No, what else? Um Let’s see, uh facilitating generosity. I’m just reading from your session description, facilitating generosity through your data tech and business processes. I mean, we’ve alluded to all that stuff but why we, you know, you had a full hour session. What else? What else can we dive deeper in? Well, we had two other individuals that were here and I think that they made two very strong points that I’d like to just bring up real quick. Yeah, I will cheer. So Mike Fisher Trusts Republic land, he was uh he was really bringing home the point that one thing that nonprofits could easily do well and that there is technology to support is to encourage those individuals that are your five star fans, your, your, your individuals that are advocating, they’re opening your emails, they’re clicking through, they’re donating, maybe they’re volunteering, maybe, but they’re just consistently available to you and your mission. They are the ones that you should be asking to get more involved by bringing more people into your organization. They are your super fans. They are the ones that can tell their friends about you easily and well, because they’re obviously passionate about your cause and mission. Um The other thing is to be looking at who your social influencers are, uh who is on um who’s retweeting you who or re xing you. I don’t threating you. I don’t know. I know, but you know what I mean? I think now they just call them posts which is totally generic. So let’s do that. Well, I like, I like I do too that we’re expanding the definition, we’re expanding definitions. So yeah, so the ones that are posting about you on social networks that matter to you or that you’re finding um engagement on those are the people that you should be asking to support you in those regards that the idea of spreading generosity and connecting people to resources into each other is, is something that I think we undervalue yet is extremely important. And so Mike Fisher was really great at driving home that point that we are well under utilizing those individuals that can help us invite more people into our cause. And then also, and how we measure what they do. We don’t even have metrics really for like social influencing. Oh no. Does that exist in CRM systems? It does in some? Yeah, but it, it’s underutilized primarily and then it’s, it’s the other thing is, is that it’s a acknowledged and Peter really brought this home to us yesterday is the fact that when you get an email talking about the way that you’ve made impact at an organization, commonly, they’re reminding you of the last donation you made and how you can expand that donation or up a $10 and become a sustainer. But rarely do they say, and we really appreciate also the 25 hours that you, you gave to us this year through volunteerism or the peer to peer fundraiser that you helped us make a success and our match with others on Facebook last year. And so we’re really not tracking these different ways that people are showing their generosity and it’s really a shame. And um, so I’ll just make two other points real quick. One is um, storytelling which I think Natania has led, um, has done a great job at talking about and Michelle Payne who is jobs for America’s graduate on our panel as well. Um She, you know, they work with youth and high schools that um need are, are looking for a pathway to success in underprivileged neighborhoods or, and in areas um where opportunity is limited and the stories that those J A alumni are providing jobs for America’s graduates fundraising team in order to go out and raise more funds is critical to the success of jobs for America’s graduates. And um that, that needs to be acknowledged that these people are spending their time, their energy and being vulnerable by telling their stories to others in order to help raise critical funds for organizations and commonly, that goes unnoticed. Last thing I’ll just challenge everyone to say is we talk about donors like we’re not donors and like we’re not generous people, we and to take a step back and say, why aren’t donors giving more or why are, you know, or what should we do to make our donors more engaged with us? Look, look at yourself what is missing from the process of donations and from the way that organizations are engaging with you, how are we going to get folks to be more engaged with us, engage with them? I mean, you’re saying, acknowledge, acknowledge the breath of their generosity. Right. Exactly. Are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way that a mission or organization has been responsive to you? How would you like to see that improved? Um If you’re feeling dissatisfied by the process, then I guarantee you every stakeholder in your organization, every stakeholder that’s giving to your organization is probably feeling the exact same way. Um So do unto others as you want to do unto you, I think was Peter’s line yesterday. Several years ago, there was someone on who I followed on then Twitter. So I’m gonna keep using Twitter. Uh She was, uh she was the Whiny donor. Uh She was a board member and I had her on the show. She didn’t want her name revealed. Uh but she was a board member of a couple of nonprofits in upstate New York, Buffalo area. Um So I had the Whiny Donor on several years ago and I used to follow her on Twitter and we would engage and she was, you know, she was, um often disappointed, not always. I mean, she would point out successes too, but, you know, you sent me, uh you sent me a thank you letter, but the donation amount is wrong. I mean, that’s a, that’s like a killer, you know, I mean, that’s so basic. That’s that, I mean, that is cr MS are capable of somebody put the wrong number in, you know, someone who was careless or, you know, they didn’t proofread the letter to compare it with the data in the, in the CRM and it’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s Donor box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers. Just like you a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability your organization needs, helping you help others visit donor box.org to learn more. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you, Kate in the gym. I’m, I’m coming back to these gym stories. Uh Yeah, no spending a lot of time there. I’m, I’m noticing things. I see a big difference between the way women dress in the gym and men dress in the gym. I, I think it’s easier to describe men the way they dress. They don’t give a shit put on anything old. I mean, and I know for myself like I’ll go in a pair of uh I, I typically wear, I wear a bathing suit as a workout workout shorts. Uh because they’re nice and short, you know, like they’re running, I use them as running shorts and also workout shorts like, uh you know, orange, uh orange bathing suit shorts and a green shirt. It makes no difference to me and my socks. All my socks are white. I don’t, I don’t call to coordinate any socks or anything that’s men, don’t give a shit. Women the color co ordination. The time that goes into the, the, I can imagine the hours that go into the shopping, not just the dressing but the shopping to match like the, the ankle band on the socks matches a color on the shoes or the ankle band on the socks matches the shorts. I’ve seen both of those or the shorts and the top color coordinate. Not identical. Man, you, you don’t have to go identical, but they’re coordinating a color, not saying matchy. Matchy. I’m saying coordinate much more sophisticated than Matchy. Matchy color coordinate or the shoes and the shorts. That’s another one. I’ve seen a lot. I the, the time that goes into matching these colors, it’s, it’s amazing uh or coordinating these colors. So women have a much better game in uh in gym attire. Uh You gotta say much better and um I just saw something in the New York Times this afternoon, uh about sock length in millennials versus Gen Z. And we get some of both on, on a, uh I’d say most of the people probably more than half the people who come to this gym, this town community gym are over 55 sixtyish uh but some, you know, but some are, are younger. Uh Now I have not noticed this myself. This is one that I I got from the Times today. Your, your Gen Z will, will not show their ankles with socks. It’s gotta be above the ankle and maybe even up to like mid calf gen Z but millennials always show the ankle what heads, I don’t know if P socks is an outdated. I didn’t, they didn’t, I don’t think they mentioned pets in the, in the article. Maybe that’s an outdated term, but that’s how I know them head socks. So you’re supposed to be able to tell Gen Z for millennials by the height of their socks. I don’t know what that’s all worth. Uh Congratulations women for having so much more pride in your gym appearance. And now I hope, I hope the energy that goes into your workout is equivalent to the energy that went into your shopping and then wearing the coordinating colors. I mean, I hope you’re working out just as hard as your shopping, but women got it over men. That is Tony’s take two Kate. What do you think? It’s, it’s like that old. Um If you feel better, like you’ll be better kind of thing. I think when you look better, you’ll feel better and you’ll do better. Um Also shopping for active wear is like so much fun nowadays because they have so many colors and you don’t want to show up in like boing black leggings or like white tank top. Like I want to show up in coral, you know, color coordinating, head to toe. It’s more fun that way. Ok. Ok. That’s the, that there’s the sentiment behind what I’m, I’m, I’m observing. And then you said pets for the socks. That’s how I know low, so low socks that are, are below or right at the ankle. Those are pets. We call them no shows because you can’t see them above your shoe. Yeah, I, I, I gathered that meaning, I, I was able to figure that out why they might be called No show. Thank you. All right. So, I’m using an outdated, outdated, antiquated, uh, uh, anachronistic term for old. Simple, old. All right. Well, I like, uh, I like, uh, I like, uh, synonyms as well. Ok. No more pet socks. No shows. We’ve got just about a butt load. More time. Here’s the rest of use your tech to enable generosity. Uh, Natania. I’m gonna put you on the spot. Do you wanna, do you wanna tell AAA um, a fee? No, no, a feeding America story. This antiquated, uh, mindset that nonprofits have that donors, you can only communicate to donors about giving money. And if you have advocates or volunteers don’t, don’t ask them for any money, you better not, you know, don’t, uh, don’t intimidate them or vice versa, you know, don’t encourage your donors to do other things besides donate. Um, we don’t want to distract them. We want to keep them on this path on the, the donor journey and the ladder of engagement to get them to be major donors. But none of this other stuff is gonna matter in that Um And I think that’s, that’s broken thinking and we have started to see how we’ve turned that around at Feeding America is, we’ve started to message all our in full file about advocacy actions and legislation that’s at risk. Here’s the spectrum of possibilities of how you can engage with us. That’s how you’re going to really build those brand champions for yourself. Um And, and get them to be the voice of your organization too as Peter um alluded to um II, I presume you haven’t had a lot of pushback from these donors as you’ve broadened their, there’s been no, no risk to it. I give, why, why do you ask me to sign the petition? Why do you ask me to write the email to the representative? You know, I’m already donating. People don’t still think that way they see everything as something coming from feeding America and a message from us to them. And, you know, I think that lifting that up and, and starting from that point, you can create a more holistic message that is more meaningful and stronger and gets you the results that you wanted. This is right within your purview as strategic and integrated planning director, right? And that’s a pretty big portfolio, strategic and not just strategic, strategic and integrated big portfolio. What I have to ask you the uh the significance of the you’re wearing a hat that says bagels, are you a, are you a bagel? Um connoisseur because I live here. They live in OK. Now I’m from New York where we’re boiled bagels? Are they boil them? OK. That’s the boiling. That’s the boiling. That’s the pre boiling before the baking. Which is, that’s, you get the golden crust on your bagel. It’s not supposed to be a pound cake. The definition of relevance. I’m learning a lot. I find this to be very generous. Henry Higgins. Henry Higgins. Henry Higgins. Spoiled bagels. Tony. If I could be so cheeky. I’m going to ask you a question. Um, Zars or David Bagels. What’s your, what’s your bagel place in New York? Well, it used to be H and H God, they close, they close, they always warm bagels. It’s gotta be, if you were willing to wait like five minutes, it’s the next round of warm whole wheat bagels, which is my, my, my, my go to would be coming out. But so, but h and h isn’t there anymore. So I’d probably have to say Zars. There are, I’m hearing an echo from our production assistant. Soon to be demoted. I said that earlier though to be nice to Amy free. I think that’s a good idea. No, after the conference, after the conference, but before the bonus. Yeah, exactly. After the work is done before the bonus is paid. Um, ok. Uh, so, ok. No, probably Zars. Yeah, we’re in Portland. Natan is Portland. Not a food city. It’s a big food city. This is an appropriate digression plus, you know, the middle aged white guy has got the master board and I I’m dictating the agenda. So, no, but I do, I do, I wanna work food in because Portland is an enormously rich and rightfully proud, rightfully proud food city from the trucks to the restaurants, et cetera. So, uh ok, let’s go back to genero expanding the definition of generosity though. Um What else? What more can we Peter? You’ve, you’ve been uh well, the, the, the one who hasn’t spoken. Well, you did contribute the bagel to the bagel conversation. But aside from that, uh what else, what else came out? Well, maybe some questions if uh if you feel we’ve covered topics, maybe some questions that came out of the session yesterday that were provocative, informative, interesting things you all hadn’t thought of. No, the questions were dull. You know, honestly natanya mentioned a couple of the really good ones and it was, you know, hey, look, we’re really small. How do we, we’re just trying to find our um our butt with both hands. How do we, how do we do the things that big organizations are doing? And I usually don’t say it so kindly, but with both hand that’s acceptable here. Oh, we had somebody say, fuck yesterday talking to my 14 year old daughter. So, you know, I try, I try to keep her. This is, this is not a G rated show. I mean, it’s a PG show but yeah, I still think it’s appropriate. I get it, I get it. Um I might, um, I might let you talk a little bit about it, Natania. Um, but I, I thought like, you know, look, you just have to, you just have to do it. Um delivering value to people and delivering a valuable experience is really critically important. Um And that’s one of the ways that smaller organizations can dive in and really try to grow. Everybody started their email list or their, their, you know, Instagram or Facebook profile or tiktok. Uh What do they call it an account, I guess over there um with one follower, right? Them, plus their mom. So um it’s really one of those things that I think we get asked a lot is how do small organizations get in? And so, you know, you just have to do it and, and from my perspective, I think delivering value is the way to, to really um start to do it. Just just give people something that they want, whether it’s that experience, whether it’s those compelling stories, whether it’s, you know, imagery that reflects people who look like them and the people they care about. Um that becomes probably the first step on that ladder towards, you know, programmatic maturity and getting people to really um engage an audience and get them to support their cause. Um Natania, I trounce all over what you were saying yesterday. Can I just insert something? There’s, there’s a basic principle in promotion and marketing that the way to get more clients or in this case, donors or volunteers is to be great to the clients or donors or volunteers that you’ve already got. And Natania, that goes right to what you, you’re saying about expanding their engagement. Uh and not, not, you know, putting people in silos as strictly a donor, never talk to them about, you know, other, other opportunities. Uh You know, and I think it’s just treat people the way you’d like to be treated. You know, you don’t even have to go to Prenn of promotion and marketing. Just uh the golden rule. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And no, you did not trounce all over. I was gonna say, um I do think, um, you know, yeah, offering those opportunities and, um, you know, I think there’s, there’s this perception that, um, you know, if you can’t do things at the, at the Cadillac or the gold standard that then you shouldn’t do it at all. And I just don’t think that’s true and, you know, we might be at, or I might be at a large organization now. That doesn’t mean we have everything figured out either. You know, we, we all are in the same industry that is founded on some broken principles, you know, the nonprofit industry isn’t perfect just like any other business out there. Um, and we all have to deal with the same fundamental um cultural issues that we, that we are dealing with um as an industry and uh at the end of the day, if you can ask three people, five questions or five people, three questions. However, you want to go about it, which are, you know, something like what are the ways in which you want to be involved? Do you prefer to support in person virtually or behind the scenes in an operational capacity? Do you wanna get email from us? Do you wanna get paper mail? Do you wanna not get anything? Um You know, asking people how they want to be involved is the first step and that can get you more data than any kind of, you know, the only caveat there is you then have to honor their honor their request. I mean, if you can’t, if you don’t feel that you can segment that way, then don’t ask the question. But I do think you can ask people, you know, what are the ways in which you do want to be involved? That doesn’t mean you’re gonna promise them that, but it does mean that you want to get to know them better. And then this is for in the future for us to be able to understand what do we need to deliver to you in the future. And it’s all about how you deliver that message to them. And I think you can keep yourself honest and accountable. Without over promising too much. All right, I’m gonna defer it to Jamie as, uh, as our origin originator, uh, to, uh, to wrap us up with some warm motivation. Ok. Well, so there were actually two other things that came out. They weren’t questions. We had a lot of people that offered a lot of great ideas in the audience as well. So we actually did, yeah, we did an exercise where we turned to each other and talked about as donors. How would we want to, how do we like to be treated? Um What seems to be missing from our, our um generosity experience beyond donations. And there were two things that came up as one is uh a Human centered design approach and starting from places of generosity, different origins of generosity, right? Volunteerism or advocacy or influence or engagement of referrals, storytelling and then mapping a journey uh throughout your organization for how you believe that individual is going to want to engage with your organization and, and delve deeper into your mission. Um And then using CRM automation or Eecrm automation, um offline analog, whatever, whatever you need or have available to you to make that journey as realistic as possible. People that are showing generosity in a certain way together to uh to help design together. How are you going to further that form of generosity within the mission? So if you have a number of volunteers that are volunteering at a food bank, uh bringing them together into a roundtable or fireside chat to talk about what’s missing from the experience. What could we be doing better? What are you finding fulfilling about that experience is a great way to get people involved and people find that form of generosity and, and being invited into a community of common, like individuals and common behaviors to be very fulfilling and a way of saying thank you to those people because you’re acknowledging the fact that they are contributing in a certain way. And that’s why leadership circles exist and giving circles. I just want to insert that I had someone a guest yesterday, call that a town hall. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever you want, whatever you want to call it, people feel warm invited to that. Absolutely. People want to share their ideas. I will say I’m very, I am excited about this book, Tony and I do not know the gentleman’s name and I apologize. So I hope you can find it for me. But the head of Ted just came out with a book called Infectious Generosity. And it’s all about how the greatest form of generosity is spreading ideas. And he gives some great examples, some great stories throughout. And I think that there are some really critical lessons for us in the nonprofit industry on how we are helping individuals uh and facilitating individuals, the spreading of ideas and resources to each other. Um because that’s really what connects us all together. That’s Jamie Mueller, Chief Growth Officer at Ptko papa Tango, Kilo Oscar, also Peter Genuardi, founder of see the Stars and Natania Le Claire, Director of Strategic and integrated Planning. What a portfolio at Feeding America. Thank you very much, Jamie Peter Natania. Thanks very much for sharing. Thank you, Tony. Thank you outstanding. Thank you and thank you for being with Tony Martignetti nonprofit Radio coverage of the 2024 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits next week using A I in your communications. If you missed any part of this weeks show, I beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com were sponsored by Virtuous. Virtuous, gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools. You need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow, giving virtuous.org and by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor. Box.org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martinetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for May 20, 2024: Sociocracy & Attract More Donors

 

Justin BirdsongSociocracy

It’s a new form of decision making you might want to try out. Justin Birdsong from Skeleton Key Strategies introduces us to circle structures, domains and aims, and linking roles, as he acquaints us with this more equitable and inclusive, sociocratic decision making method. (Recorded at the 2024 Nonprofit Technology Conference.)

 

Shannon Bowen & Emily DiFrisco: Attract More Donors

When your development and communications teams work collaboratively with strong relationships, you’ll draw more donors and increase your fundraising revenue. Our panel shares their strategies. They’re Shannon Bowen with Monsoon Leadership and Emily DiFrisco at the Center for Environmental Health. (Also recorded at 24NTC.)

 

 

 

 

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Welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. This is show number 691. That means we’re only nine weeks away from our 7/100 show and 14th anniversary. Not that we are wishing the summer months and weeks away. Certainly not, but we are close to the big one. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be forced to endure the pain of Burrito Genesis if you got under my skin with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer Kate to introduce what’s coming. Hey, Tony, this week we have two more conversations from 24 NTC Sociocracy. It’s a new form of decision making. You might want to try Justin Birdsong from skeleton key strategies. Introduces us to circle structures, domains and aims and linking roles as he acquaints us with this more equitable and inclusive decision making method and attract more donors. When your development and communications teams work collaboratively with strong relationships, you’ll draw more donors and increase your fundraising revenue. Our panel shares their strategies. There’s Shannon Bowen with Monsoon leadership and Emily De Frisco at Center for environmental health. Antonis take two through infants. Eyes were sponsored by virtuous, virtuous, gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and the marketing tools you need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow, giving, virtuous.org and by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org here is Sociocracy. Welcome back to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of 24 NTC. You know what it is, you know that it’s the 2024 nonprofit technology conference. You know that we’re at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon, beautiful Portland, great food city. And you know that we’re sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. What you don’t know is that I’m now with Justin Birdsong, founder and principal of Skeleton Key Strategies. You’re now informed fully, Justin. Welcome to nonprofit radio. Thank you so much, Tony. I’m so glad to be here. Pleasure, pleasure. Thank you for joining us for our coverage where we are, you and I are going to talk about equitable governance and consent based decision making an introduction to sociocracy. That’s it. All right. I think we better start with a definition of sociocracy. Absolutely. So, sociocracy is a peer governance system that is based on decentralizing power and hierarchical power structures and uh more equitable distribution of decision making in organizations. What do we say? To the CEO S who think they just heard a definition of the word anarchy um to a certain kind of CEO with a certain kind of, um you know, power centric mindset, they wouldn’t be far off. Um I think the difference is that it’s the opposite of anarchy in the sense that sociocracy actually has really strong uh process and governance procedures. So it’s not that there’s no rules of the road. It’s that the rules of the road are about integrating all voices, making balance for dissension and um objections to certain kinds of decisions and making sure that everybody has a voice in the kinds of major decisions that drive either an organization or a team or uh it’s also used extensively outside of organizations and more informal kinds of settings like cohousing communities. Oh, interesting. OK. Or maybe we’ll get to some of those other settings. Sure. Uh But we’ll be focused on our, our listeners are small and mid size nonprofits. Yes. So I think they would be fertile ground for, for your ideas. I think. So I think an important thing I can say right up front is that sociocracy is a really different methodology from most of the kinds of power structures we are used to having, especially in businesses and nonprofits. They tend to be traditionally hierarchical in nature. There’s nothing wrong with hierarchy. It’s just ultimately decision making rolls up to a certain kind of level of decision making and the buck stops with one ultimate decision maker. Some smaller nonprofits are a little bit more flat in nature. We’re a little bit more democratic. We’re sort of, everybody gets to weigh in, but there are pros and cons to that as well because that can make it really difficult to make a decision and to integrate everybody’s different perspectives when they are in competition with one another. And so sociocracy attempts to sort of balance the things that are useful about hierarchical methods and flat and democratic type methods into a consent based approach where that balances all of those voices and seeks not just to have a sort of one decision maker or a consensus or a majority of decision makers who agree with one thing, but that every single member of a decision making group will be able to consent to a particular way forward as you alluded. Uh This is going to require leadership. Yeah, buy in. We’re not going to be able to, we’re not going to be able to do this without the senior leadership being on board 100%. Um you sort of made the case but let’s make it explicit. So, uh what, how would we make the case to maybe to our vice president to bring it to the CEO, maybe our CEO to bring it to the board um help us make the case? Yeah, absolutely. I think that ultimately depends on what the organization is struggling with. So when organizations and I think I’ve seen this in a lot of nonprofits, both large and small is how easy is it to make decisions? And then even if it’s relatively easy to make decisions, how brought in are people to those decisions? How easy is it to manage people through change? Because those conversations may have happened when they weren’t in the room, or somebody may be moving forward with something that they think the right thing, even though they may not feel like their perspectives or objections were heard. And so ultimately, that can sort of slow down or impede the success of a major project or a new initiative. Um And what sociocracy is designed to do is to level that playing field just a bit while still having an active facilitation role to make sure that everybody is being heard, make sure that um when somebody raises an objection that has to do with the effectiveness of the mission or the aim of whatever it is that we’re trying to do that, we’re able to hear and balance that and incorporate any of those objections through maybe altering the proposal a little bit or saying we’re going to extend the timeline of this so that we can give it a try. But then we’re going to commit to checking back in and making adjustments if we need to et cetera. So you just referenced some of the symptoms of less than ideal decision making that we might, that we might encounter slow processes, people not feeling bought in, um, anything else that would sort of trigger, you know, maybe we can, we can be doing a better job of and, and could be more successful at decentralizing our decision making. Yeah, I mean, I think the types of organizations that are drawn to something like sociocracy are also generally doing it from a sort of equity perspective. They’re just generally interested in decentralizing decision making, maybe making things a little bit less top down um organizations that are close to organizing or social justice tend to respond to this type of model because it’s about sort of disrupting traditional power structures in a way that just generally appeals to people while also understanding it’s a big shift and sort of putting it into practice is uh is complicated and um it involves a lot of letting go of uh the traditional sort of seats and, and controls of power that people are used to in organizations. Hence, you know, the senior leadership has got to be uh has got to be willing to have some fun with uh decision making but make decision making more equitable, exactly less flat as you, as you already explained. OK. Um We need to have a foundation, there’s some things we need to learn like circle structures. Yes, some things. OK. So set us up with our foundation. Yes. So this is, and this is by the way, also how there are bits and pieces that you can borrow from sociocracy, even if your whole organization is not ready to sort of move uh part and parcel into a socio cratic model. Um Essentially the way that we sort of take the hierarchical structure and adapt it for sociocracy is by having a relationship between sort of parent and child circles. And you can think of the core of those being a general circle, which in most organizations is kind of like your C suite, you sort of executive leadership and decision makers and then governing that is a mission circle which in nonprofits is typically akin to the board, may or may not not be all internal folks, but which are trying to make sure that the organization stays aligned with its declared mission and purpose in the world. The general circle is about managing the organization and then stemming off of that central circle are sub circles which are equivalent in many ways to teams and departments. And the thing that’s a bit different is the model by which these circles are linked. So as opposed to being sort of purely top down, there’s a system of double linking where there’s a leader and a delegate that is a member of both every parent circle and the child circle. And part of what that enables is for there to be two perspectives that get shared in both the parent circle and the child circle. And that the leader is making sure decision making happening uh or influence or questions happening at the parent level circle are being communicated down to the sub circle. And then the delegate is doing the same thing in the reverse, making sure that what’s happening in the sub circle is reflected back to the parent circle. And the explicit delegation of power is that rather than all of the decision making happening at the C suite level, that executive general circle level, anything within the declared domain and aim, which is an explicit sort of set of standards that get defined when you create these circle structures is, you know, my marketing sub circle has an explicit aim that is about, you know, publicizing and communicating about the role of our organization. And their domain includes potentially things like the website, the email list, anything that falls squarely within the domain of a sub circle, they have the autonomous decision making power to make decisions and recommendations at that level without necessarily always having to run things up a chain to a uh a general circle for buy in. OK. All right. That, well, that’s the big shift. They, they have the autonomy, they, they have the, they, they have the authority and they also have the responsibility, the accountability, responsibility for their, for their decision. OK. Now, at one point, you had said the parent child and the, the, the parent circle and the child circle. Uh I don’t that, that still sounds hierarchical. I, is there a better? I’m, I’m not trying to revolutionize sociocracy. I just learning about it for the past 9.5 minutes. But uh I don’t know that, like I said, it still sounds hierarchical. Well, there, there are different words we can use. Um I think it’s not wrong to say that it is, it is taking the thing that is effective about so about hierarchy, which is the fact that there are different levels of domain and oversight that are needed when an organization is handling both high level strategic and mission level impact type things and then all the way down to the weeds of the operations. So I think it makes sense that there’s still relationships and gradations of responsibility. Um And they are still related to one another in that sort of binary relationship that we can think of as hierarchy. But typically hierarchy stacks power and decision making at the top and the farther down in the hierarchy you go, there’s less decision making and that’s explicitly inverted in sociocracy and some decisions do need to go up to the parent. Exactly. I mean, there’s always the case where a sub circle itself, even though there’s a lot of uh rich process around decision making and how you get consent and how you integrate objections. There’s always the case that a sub circle can’t in itself integrate all the objections and make a fully consent based in which case that’s part of the reason why we still have the parent circles. Ultimately, things can be escalated up. If they can’t be solved at the sub circle, they don’t have the data, whatever information can’t resolve the conflict, they may not have the relationships to make their decision effective. It could be that it could also just simply be that there’s opposing viewpoints that are both valid. So when someone has an objection, it, first of all, it really needs to be based on something that is related to the aim and domain. I think this proposal that’s on the table, say it’s about a certain kind of marketing channel that we want to open up and somebody may have a really genuine objection that can’t be about their sort of personal feelings and preferences. But it is about, I genuinely think that us going into tiktok is going to erode our aim, it is going to make us less effective at our aim and domain. And therefore I am going to withhold my consent from our ability to move forward with that. And the group can try to integrate that objection by again, sort of saying, well, we can try it for a period of time and then check back in, we can amend the proposal and say we’re only going to do tiktok for certain kinds of campaigns, there’s ways to sort of balance that out. But if the group cannot ultimately arrive at consent rather than consensus full consent from everybody involved. Then worst case, that’s why you have parent circles to escalate things up to. It’s time for a break. Virtuous is a software company committed to helping nonprofits go generosity. Virtuous believes a generosity has the power to create profound change in the world and in the heart of the giver, it’s their mission to move the needle on global generosity by helping nonprofits better connect with and inspire their givers. Responsive fundraising puts the donor at the center of fundraising and grows giving through personalized donor journeys that responds to the needs of each individual. Virtuous is the only response of nonprofit CRM designed to help you build deeper relationships with every donor at scale. Virtuous is CRM fundraising, volunteer marketing and automation tools. You need to create responsive experiences that build trust and grow impact virtuous.org. Now back to sociocracy with Justin Birdsong. Le let’s shift away from the theoretical for a minute. Tell, tell me a story, tell me a, a success story of uh sociocracy decision making. Uh Sure. So I think one way that I have been able to implement it in a very small way is with um some colleagues of mine who were putting together uh their own sort of strategic plan for their new consulting company. So it’s a small, tiny, tiny group, group of three and they were looking for some sort of system of power that would enable the three of them, two founders and the sort of first hire underneath them to equitably balance the decision making power between them and then also position them to grow as they imagine they’re bringing on eventually mother staff. How could they do so in a way that continues that same method and doesn’t kind of concentrate all of the power and decision making in the hands of the founders. And so this is actually a really good example of where, you know, we went through the sort of whole model top to bottom. And there were lots of things that they were like, you know, I don’t know that we’re going to fully adopt that, that that sort of feels like in some ways that’s impeding us. We might not need quite this level of process and decision making. But we really, for example, liked the uh the circle structures because it gave clear aims and domains that could be distributed and it allowed them to then divorce in some cases themselves from one of those circles and say, OK, I’m going to step back and let these two other principal consultants take the operations circle and they have full aim and domain about that. If they need my input, they can come to me because all three of them are in the general circle, but I fully trust and delegate all of my trust responsibility to them. And it’s enabled them to um understand where they need all three of their decisions versus where they can move faster by making autonomous decisions themselves in smaller groups. And how long has this start up in uh engaged this way? They are in their third year and they adopted this early in 2023. So about a year and change and they’re still successful, they’re finding that it’s easier to, again, they sort of, they can move faster without anybody feeling disenfranchised because there are explicit agreements up front that these two individuals are double linked into this parents circle. They have autonomous decision making power over this particular domain and aim if it’s operations, if it’s product development, et cetera. And um and there’s no overhead of having to constantly run things back up the chain. I can see how this would make an any organization more, more nimble, you think more reactive in, in a, in a good way. I don’t mean knee jerk reactive. But you know, like the three of us in our circle can huddle and we can make this decision maybe in 10 or 15 minutes where we might have to wait for the next meeting with the vice president or the, or the CEO and that’s not scheduled for another whatever 10 days, you know, we can resolve this right now. That’s the best practical application of it is that it just allows people to move swiftly and it puts into place agreements of I at the time we set up the circle, we imbue it with this trust if you’re in this circle, otherwise I would be in the circle if I didn’t trust you to make the decision, I’m going to delegate explicitly this power and that allows us all move a little bit quicker. Plus, it tends to raise this sort of sense of morale because everybody has a voice at the table and has explicit ability to influence whether or not decisions get made and move forward. Now, what is your role in sociocracy? Are you, are you, is there a certification for teaching this and implementing it for organizations or skeleton key? What are, what are you doing around sociocracy? Well, at skeleton key, it’s mostly a thing that we have imbued in certain scenarios. Like what if we’re setting up a kind of committee? We are always kind of looking at like power dynamics and what’s going to enable an organization to move fast. Sometimes we are calling it sociocracy. Like with the group of consultants, I was mentioning other times, it’s more like principles of equitable decision making that we just try to weave in. Um but there is um there’s a number of organizations that do this, but I spent all of last year working in and training with an organization called Sociocracy for all that is an international NGO. But it’s based in the US. And their whole mission is about sort of spreading education about socio cratic models. And I trained in their sociocracy. Sociocracy academy for all of 2023. And um and that is where I learned a lot of this content and was able to practice it with people all around the world who again are using it in some places in the sort of eco permaculture sort of movement, cohousing movements. There’s lots of places where this is being used that are outside of sort of formal nonprofit organizations. And so now do we have our foundation set? Can we move to the next step of process? There’s, there’s something called rounds and integrating objections. And so do we have our foundations we’ve created? OK. Uh So what does it look like in practice then? And so this is where we’re, we’re sort of, we’re inner circles, right? We’re in our, our meetings and we’re trying to have more effective meetings. And one of the ways that we facilitate, there’s a strong, strong facilitation role at all levels of sociocracy and most meetings are run through what are called rounds. And that’s essentially whoever is in the facilitator role in that particular meeting, which is often rotate. Yeah, is going to make sure that every single person in the room or in the circle gets a moment to talk. That’s explicit. It takes some of the pressure off because everybody knows that at some point they’re going to get called on, they’re going to get to say their piece even if they have nothing to say and they can just pass. So it takes some of that pressure off of people feeling like they need to insert themselves. When, when does my chance come? I, I didn’t get a chance yet. The meeting’s gonna end. I’m not gonna, everybody gets an explicit chance. Exactly. It also helps to balance voices because then you don’t, it’s the facilitator’s role to make sure everybody’s being heard. It’s sort of the reasonable, roughly equally, nobody’s dominating that contrary to our purpose here. Exactly right. And so we are facilitating things through rounds. And so for example, when we are making a decision, there will be a proposal on the table. That’s the sort of traditional way that we talk about whatever the topic is the proposal. What is it that we’re deciding on and somebody might run, the facilitator would run us through first is a clarifying questions round. So we’re going to go around. Everybody gets just a moment to say, is there anything about the proposal you don’t understand or need more information about? We can go through that as needed once all the clarifying questions are asked, there’s a second round that is about reactions and that’s when people can start say like, you know, I am hesitant about this or I actually think this is a really good idea or, you know, I have some real concerns about this particular proposal as it’s articulated. And then that would be followed by an explicit consent round that is literally going around. Do you consent to this, do you not consent for this? And within that the sort of range of tolerance of consent, you know, there’s gonna be people who love it and they like, yes, this is perfect for me. I’m super enthusiastic about this and then there’s other people who are like this is fine, like it works for me, maybe it sort of falls into this sort of neutral territory and both of those count as consent. Um And then the third option is I object, which again, I have something about this proposal. I feel like it’s going to interrupt or be counterproductive to our aim. So I have an objection. I’m going to clearly state what that objection is. That’s that sort of last round. If there are objections, then the group is going to attempt to integrate those objections by potentially extending the timeline. Um Saying, you know, can we modify the proposal in some way that accounts for this or can we agree to move forward with this proposal as written? But know that we are going to check back in at some specific point and revisit it and what ultimately we’re trying to get people to consent within, to move whatever it is into that range of tolerance of at least being able to say like, OK, this works enough. It’s good enough for now. OK. So I have to be heard. Yes, my, my objection has to be heard. If, if, if that’s where I that’s where I start out precisely. OK. Um Say a little more about the role of the, the person who has the dual uh the dual appointment. They’re in the, they’re in, they’re in the, the parent circle, but also the child circle that is the liaison is that the leader and the delegate, the delegate, the delegate has the two, the dual role, dual assignment, let’s say yes. So the circle leader, you know, which may or may not always be the circle facilitator by the way, but they are the sort of designated leader of convening that circle. They may be the one that’s calling people together or sort of managing outcomes, et cetera. Um leader. Less likely to be rotating, it’s selected. Actually, there’s a selection process that’s similar to the rounds where somebody gets nominated. We discuss qualifications, people can amend their nominations and then the group decides on who the leader and the delegate are and the delegate is another participant who is explicitly not in the leadership role, but they sort of represent everybody else. And so their job is is to again, sort of keep in some ways, keep each other honest, right? Like if you and I are both in our marketing sub circle and then we have to go up to our general circle because we are double linked and you’re the leader and I’m the delegate, you may be reporting out on something that our decision making group did in the sub circle. And I’m another perspective. So I can even just sort of qualify sort of what you said is like, actually, there’s something else, I think the general circle needs to know about how that decision was made. We had to integrate this particular kind of objection and this was the nuance about that. And so it makes sure that there’s two perspectives being represented in every conversation, which helps again, sort of make sure that there’s no one person’s perception or, um, you know, allegiance to a certain kind of outcome that is going to prevail in every case. What else? Uh, what else should we know? I mean, you have some, uh, things that you’ve suggested about the, the, the topic, um, understanding how it improves equity and inclusivity. I mean, I think, I feel like we’ve talked about that at the outset even. But what, what else, what else should folks know about this, this process? I, I think ultimately the thing to know is that it is, um, it is a set of tools and I think one thing is people see it and they may have a really, well, they have a really strong reaction one way or the other. Yeah. Right. It’s unlikely to be neutral, talking about the neutral in the decision making. But I like it’s ok, you know, I could live with it. It’s probably gonna be, I think it’s very positive or very negative. I think that’s exactly the case. And so, um and while that is true, and I think even, you know, a thing that sociocracy for all that organization that I was training with, you know, they do implementations of this in organizations and they are frequently unable to move forward because if there’s not the kind of buy in and alignment about the kind of seismic change it represents, if you are an existing organization with a traditional hierarchical structure and you’re planning to upend that, that is not something to be done lightly. Um But the thing that I think I want to reinforce is that I see it as not just a monolith but a whole set of practices and tools and um sort of micro processes that can be used and adapted, especially when you are in an operational or a technological or project project based kind of role because you are constantly making decisions in agile projects, technology implementations, you’re constantly trying to like get stakeholder buy in to be a level in a certain way and make sure that decisions are soundly informed by different, maybe even competing perspectives. And you want to be able to integrate objections from different stakeholders and project members because they may have something really valid to say that you may want to adjust a little bit. And so I see it as a whole tool set from which people can learn and take pieces of it that they can implement. Even if you’re going to do it within a traditionally hierarchical organization? Is it difficult in uh sort of the, the delegation of where the authority ends for each circle? I mean, there, you had, you had said at the outset, there are certain things that are not gonna be conducive to this or the CEO is just not gonna give up uh uh give up sole authority over. Um But say a little more about delineating the, the boundaries of each circle. How do we, how do we define that? Sure. It’s when you, when you’re creating a circle structure of any kind, even if you were going to sort of just do this within, uh let’s say you have a technology department and you have a couple of different teams and you sort of, and you want to be able to adapt this just even within a department, you could sort of the thing that you do when you’re defining it is you first are articulating the mission that unites the whole group together and then you are delineating the aim and domain. The aim is what we’re here to accomplish. And then the domain is the set of things, usually multiple things that then fall into our responsibilities and oversight. Like for example, one group may have the domain of the website, another group has domain over technology infrastructure network desktop. Another group has domain over project management and applications, things like that. Um And so you define those things at the outset and you are clear about what does and does not fall into the domain and you try to make sure everything is captured somewhere. And then of course, you know, organic organizations are constantly changing. New things will come up and when they do come up, it’s the job of that parent circle to figure out. OK. Whose domain does this fall into? Does this stay with ours? Does it move into one of the sub circles or do we even need a sub circle of off of that? Do we need a new sub circle that has a clear domain? And that’s the way by level setting right at the beginning about who has, who gets to decide who decides, who decides everybody decides at the beginning? Ok. OK. Leaving it there. You feel like we gave it adequate coverage? I think so. Thank you very much, very interesting sociocracy. Um Justin Birdsong, founder and principal at Skeleton Key Strategies. I love the company name too. Skeleton Key. Thank you so much. That’s brilliant. I appreciate it. Thank you, Justin. Thank you Tony and thank you for being with Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of 24 NTC, the 2024 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Thanks so much for being with us. It’s time for a break. Donor box, open up new cashless in person donation opportunities with donor box live kiosk. The smart way to accept cashless donations. Anywhere. Anytime picture this a cash free on site giving solution that effortlessly collects donations from credit cards, debit cards and digital wallets. No team member required. Plus your donation data is automatically synced with your donor box account. No manual data entry or errors make giving a breeze and focus on what matters your cause. Try donor box live kiosk and revolutionize the way you collect donations. Visit Donor box.org to learn more its time for Tonys take two. Thank you, Kate. A couple of days ago, I was on the beach. Uh I just sat myself down, still not warm enough to go, you know, sit for six or eight hours under an umbrella, not quite that warm yet we’re getting there. But uh I was just out uh walking and I decided to sit down and there was a little infant, uh I’d say 23 months old or so and she was being held by, I’m not sure it was mother or grandmother. I think it was her mother and the, the so the mother was facing the, the, the sand and the dunes and the houses and she had their baby facing out uh to the ocean and this little infant was just so captivated by, you know, the vast ocean. I guess the waves and she was just like serene and uh they were like 20 ft away or so, you know, it’s not, not really that far. And, you know, the baby wasn’t fussy, just calm and, I don’t know, h, I don’t know, I don’t know if babies think, I don’t know what, I don’t know what infants think about. Do they even have the capacity to think or what they, they, what, I don’t know what they’re doing in their minds, in their brains. But she, she was just so calm on her mom’s shoulder over her mom’s shoulder and I was just thinking, oh man, that the ocean and you know, she could feel the breeze and maybe smell the salt, although she doesn’t know it’s salt air. She just knows it smells a little different than, than her house. Uh unless her mother cooks with a lot of salt, but all the senses from a little infant from like a two or three month old infant. And I was thinking just how unusual it must be for her, the wonder, you know, and just to sort of seeing it through the infant’s eyes too. I was enjoying it myself, especially like more than usual that that afternoon, but just, you know, through an infant’s eyes, the world or in, you know, and just the ocean for the first time. It was, it was uh it was really moving, it was really something uh and it went on for many minutes. Uh the baby was just captivated, we can all be captivated by life. See the world through infants eyes now and then, and that’s Tony’s take two K. I would love to go back in time and look at the world through like five year old Kate’s eyes because I’m sure it was so much more colorful and bright and just exciting and I really like, didn’t take anything for granted, you know, at that age. Right? Because so much was new, like this little infant watching the, watching the ocean and hearing the waves and uh yeah, you know, we get a little jaded so take time to smell the roses. We’ve got Buku, but loads more time here is attract more donors. Welcome back to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of the 2024 nonprofit technology conference. We are all together in Portland, Oregon at the Oregon Convention Center. Nonprofit Radio is SCHED, is sponsored by Heller consulting at 24 NTC Heller does technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits with me for this conversation conversation like I’m 14. My voice breaks are Shannon Bowen and Emily Def. Frisco. Shannon is founder and CEO at Monsoon Leadership. And Emily de Frisco is senior Director of Communications at the Center for Environmental Health. Shannon Emily, welcome. Thanks for having us. Glad to have you on nonprofit radio. So we’re talking about your session topic. Have you done your session yet? We did it, you did it all right, as you’re fresh off the stage. So all the questions maybe we asked some about, about some of your questions that came up your session is full court press harness development and communication teams to attract donors. Alright. Sounds like we’re breaking down silos. Uh Emily, let’s start with you. Why do we need? I think it may be uh it may be widely known, but I want to make it explicit why do we need this session? We need this session because it’s never been more clear that there are silos, you can absolutely collaborate and work together to achieve your shared goals. So we had a lot of fun in our session, taking a lot of questions from folks who were learning just how to collaborate across the teams and how to really achieve their goals. Uh Shannon, what what happened? Why, why are we in this situation? Development and communications. They, they seem like ideal partners. Why are we siloed? What happened? Well, I think it’s hard for humans to work together in general. So that’s just across the board. Um But Emily and I worked together at Center for Environmental Health and really, we harnessed all of the different vehicles to connect with our donors. So not just donor emails, but also using social media website pop ups, you know, earned media, everything to really attract new donors and engaged at a deeper level with their existing donors. And so we really wanted to share that story because it is actionable and you can do it today at your organization. All right. So, so how we got here is just human nature. Well, I don’t know what happened, what happened to the, what they seem like symbiotic partners. I think that sometimes people put a lot of pressure on development because you got to bring in the money and you’re paying for people’s salaries. And so sometimes in organizations, it’s like, oh, well, development is more important than communications. But really what Emily and I saw as they are part and parcel, working together to increase the brand reputation and that brings in your major donors. So really, instead of working in opposition coming together and co collaborating on campaigns can increase your impact exponentially, which is what we did at ce H Yeah. And sometimes there can be a little tines as Shannon mentioned, you know, between communications and development. Um but we really valued each other’s expertise, respected each other’s expertise. And that really set the tone for collaboration for our teams as well. Ok. All right, Emily, let’s stay with you. How do we start to break down the silos? How do we start to collaborate, see each other as, as equal partners? What do we do? Yeah, it starts with communication with setting up meetings, brainstorming together, creating campaigns together. Really soup to nuts, sit together and work on something in a collaborative way. Instead of having, oh, my team is working on this, your team is working on this and never the Twain shall meet. Um really collaborate from the get go and that you will have a stronger campaign meeting together and from the beginning and then sharing success at the end. So it’s not just development going and presenting to the board, you’re bringing communications along and saying, hey, we did this great campaign together. I’ve never seen that. I mean, I always see development, presenting development outcomes. OK. All right. What, what else can we do? Yeah, I mean, I think communications serves a vital role in the organization and just having communications needs to have the humility and respect of the development team when they approach the development team to understand that um you know, fundraising for the organization is so it is so challenging. So sometimes communications folks can get kind of a little bit set in their ways and just really from the get go valuing fundraising and really just putting your best foot forward and valuing the expertise will set you up for success. What if development and communications are both under the same, let’s say vice president is that that’s not sufficient. I mean, you still still the two teams should be meeting together. I mean, I, I can see a scenario where they, where they don’t even though they’re under the same vice president. Exactly. I actually am also a Chief Advancement Officer for an organization in Seattle. And so I oversee development and communications and still even within that, you need to bring everybody together to say, OK, how are we using each vehicle to achieve our goals. And so we’re not just, oh, we’re only going to send print appeals, we’re only going to send email appeals. How are you incorporating social media? How are you incorporate video or I currently work with genetic scientists. We’re talking about podcasting because they don’t really like to be on camera. You know, I think that we have to be creative about those different mediums to increase the brand recognition, but also to talk to the donors about the content that they’re interested in and really it’s coming together brainstorming that we get our best ideas. All right. And that, that’s a great transition to another one of your learning outcomes from your description, expanding social media as well as earned and traditional media who speaks to is that this is my favorite topic is press and media. I still believe it’s the best way to reach the most amount of people when you have a piece in the New York Times or the San Francisco Chronicle or the Chicago Tribune. Um You know, you’re reaching millions, tens of millions of people at once. So it’s very important to develop in your communications team, a robust press and media strategy, develop that calendar and then keep some of it flexible for breaking news and then work with your executive director, your program directors, your science director, whomever you have at the organization who’s really moving and shaking and come up with a way that you can develop news for your organization and you can use one of the fancy platforms that there are to pitch journalists like Cision or Meltwater. There’s other ones as well help a reporter out Harrow. Is that still a thing? Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, I think so. But you can also be scrappy about it and build your own press list using an Excel spreadsheet. Um, that’s a possibility to build relationships with journalists that way. And then when you have, have a press release, ready to go, you pitch the journalist and you make a splash with that news and try to connect it to current events and then once you have that piece that you landed, um then you can approach your development team and say, hey, we’re in the San Francisco Chronicle today on the front page and that is so validating for donors um and for board and for everyone who cares about your organization’s mission. You said something that I want to flush out a little bit with, um have a relationship with journalists before you’re pitching before there’s a news item, news hook related to your work. Say a little more about developing that relationship, you know, like uh building the digging the well before you’re thirsty, you know, building the relationship before you want to pitch the journalist. There’s so many ways to do it. You can follow journalists, you like on Twitter who are reporting on issues that your organization works on, you can tweet at them and say, hey, thank you. I read your piece. It was great. I would love to connect with you. Um You can build that press list, as I mentioned and you can proactively share with them the work your organization is doing in our session. We talked a lot about virtual town halls, basically a fancy phrase for a webinar. And you can invite journalists to your webinars, invite them to your virtual town halls. They might write about your work. At the very least they’re going to get educated about the work your organization is doing. So all of those are things you can do to build relationships with journalists and to the extent that there’s still local journalism, which is not, not nearly what it was 10 years ago. Uh that includes local journalists, not only the New York Times and the San Francisco Chronicle and the Chicago Tribune. Absolutely. We just had, um Fox News come out to our office in Oakland yesterday. They came out at like seven pm and interviewed our CEO about a report that we launched yesterday. So local journalism is still alive and well, although it has, you know, as you said, there’s been some setbacks but you can still reach local journalists and they’ll still report on the work your organization is doing ok. All right. So you’re earned in traditional media, uh social media, Shannon. Do you want to flush out social media a little bit. I’d actually love to hand this over to Emily because she has an amazing hot of depressed story um about tiktok. Yeah. So we released this toxic fashion report yesterday. Um We have tested a lot of consumer products for toxic chemicals and we found over the period of the last 10 years, high levels of lead in purses and other accessories at Ross and Burlington stores. So of course, we’ve sent them legal notices, but it’s kind of like a persistent problem. So we released this report yesterday, detailing kind of our results and the legal actions that we’ve taken. And we did a Tik Tok video on it um which we didn’t expect to get a lot of traction because it’s really um like kind of a slide carousel with music and as of today, it’s reached over 300,000 people. So social media there is, is still a wonderful way to reach people. Ok. Uh Is there a broader lesson that uh our consultant from uh Monsoon wants to extrapolate from the, the, the tiktok breaking news? Well, I think that you have no idea which of those 300,000 views is going to be your next major donor and major donors are looking for causes that resonate with their values and they’re looking out in the world. They’re watching Tik Tok and we had an experience at Center for Environmental Health where we had out of the blue, an email to our info at Ce h.org started con connecting and talking with them and they turned into a $300,000 over a three year donor and you just never know who is, who is reading, who is watching. But you, you have to find a way to engage them and bring them in. And then once they’re there using all of your communication strategies to steward the donor and bring them even closer and increase that gift. And so I really think that all development directors should be savvy in communications and be open and willing to new communication channels like tiktok, you know, Twitter was the hot thing five years ago and now we know it isn’t. So you gotta be open to linkedin Tik Tok all the different ways that people are engaging now because it could shift and you don’t want to be left behind. Now, these were two anecdotes that both called up the number 300,000. You’re not making this up, are you? I guess it’s just our lucky number, I guess. So, skeptic in me, I’m sure you’re being very truthful for non nonprofit radio listeners. I mean, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t lie to you. A scout. I was a girl scout for a long time and scouts on her counts, otherwise it would have to be a pinky pledge, but scouts on her counts. Um Anything else you want to say about media, whether social traditional earned? I think social media is a great way to showcase your organization’s work. And what we do at ce H is we have a comprehensive editorial calendar. We keep some of it flexible and we do different strategies across different platforms. Um linkedin is growing really quickly right now. So is tiktok Instagram a little bit? Um So definitely diversify your strategy across social media. The news is very hard, it’s very depressing. Our work is sometimes challenging. So I always encourage um social media strategists to celebrate the wins. So when you do have a piece of good news or you are part of some legislation that passes, you know, really celebrate that on social media and you will find that, that those are some of the most highly engaged with posts that you create. And I’ll also add that in our session. We talked a lot about email strategies with donors and segmenting your list and really talking to your donors in different ways in different places. Glossing over here we go. So when I came to ch there had been a two year vacancy in the director at V Monro. So our donors hadn’t heard from us. So the first thing we did is we set up a what we call our three things email and this was a monthly email from our CEO to our major donors. It came from his name. It looked like a normal email to the point that people respond back and be like, oh, it’s so great to hear how you’re doing. Here’s my, my wife, how it’s like, oh, this is the development team, but it looked like it was, it was fresh off his email. Exactly. And we had huge engagement with it and we actually ended up, we were writing a story about, uh, toxic chemicals and exercise. You wouldn’t think that’s how you’re gonna get back, one of your biggest lapse donors. But we did and she wrote back and said, oh, I’m using this brand blah, blah, blah. We had it tested by our toxic team wrote back to her, not only did she come back as a lapse donor, but then she for the first time ever introduced us to her family foundation. And we got a second gift from her family foundation and it was all because of this email and the interaction, the opening the conversation through that email. And so we really believe in the power of segmented emails, talking in different voices, providing different content that all aligns with your brand, but really speaks to the donor. And how does this align with our bigger purpose of bringing together? What do you say? Harnessing the development and, and communications teams? Well, and I think that’s because we would repurpose content from the communications team. And we would hear, oh, this is what’s hitting really big on social media. This is what you know, reporters are really interested in and we would tailor that content to the major donors based on what was hitting and lo and behold, it would engage in conversation. And our donors would say, hey, I want to hear more about that report, you know, how did you guys even think to test lead in purses? You know, and so I think it’s like if you don’t know the data of the other team, you don’t really know what your audience wants and we need to deliver the content that our audience is actually interested in. So you got to entertain too, purses and exercise bands and socks. We did a whole Safe Socks campaign in clothing, high levels of BP A in all of our workout clothing, sports bras, leggings, shirts, shorts. Um Yeah, so this is one of the issues that we’re tackling with our public interest litigation, telling companies get the BP A out of the clothes. Ok. Um, we still have more time together. You, you did a what a 60 minute session, right? So we’re not, we’re not flushing out some things. We’ve only been talking for about 15 minutes. We, we’re not flushing out some things that you did for your live session. Well, I think one thing that we talked about is really about validating your brand, that there are a lot of people that are tackling the same issues that you are and you also have a great mission, but you really have to your brand to attract top donors. And so using her media using virtual town halls where you’re your CEO in line with other stakeholders that builds a trust of your brand and validity that you are actually the right person to be delivering this mission that all increases the dollar amount that you’re gonna get from donors. So you really have to be thinking about all of these things working together to validate your brand because there’s a lot, a lot of great missions, there’s a lot of great organizations, but why are you the right person to do this work? And that’s what’s going to get a new major donor or a larger gift from an existing donor? What were some of the some of the questions that you got? We got so many great questions. Let’s see. We definitely talked a lot about virtual town halls. People were very excited about that topic and exactly what Shannon was just saying about bringing together different stakeholders to kind of validate your brand. Um We talked about a lot about press and media coverage and talked about how you don’t have to have a huge budget and you don’t have to have a super comprehensive plan. You can get started just sitting down with your executive director, your program directors, your science director, whomever you have, who’s really moving and shaking at the organization and create a piece together and what you want to do for that is think about what the work your organization doing, what what’s happening, what has changed because that’s what reporters want to talk about is what has changed in your organization or what has changed in the work and then connecting it to current events, what’s going on in the world that you, that’s connected to your organization’s work. And then you can write an op ed together hooks we talked about and you can pitch it to different reporters or you can publish it on your website, you can publish it on linkedin and that’s a way of really driving thought leadership forward. Absolutely. We also had an interesting question about how many staff we had and who’s actually watching the metrics and who’s reporting back the metrics and why we were inspired to do this session is we both have small teams. So Emily had two staff and I had three staff and it really just takes a dedicated portion of one person’s time to look at the metrics and to discover the gems. I told a story of, I had a staff who would look at who opened and who clicked on the emails and she brought it to our team and she said, hey, there’s this donor that’s been, they only give about $500 but they’re opening and click everything. And when I looked at them, they’re actually a producer in Hollywood, maybe we should re engage them, guess what we did. And it turned into a $10,000 donor. And so by having someone just take a minute and look at those, bring that data back to the team. You can actually optimize your process and get a bigger result. And so, you know, we’re not a huge shop, we’re small shops, but we just kind of work smarter, not harder and really by working together, even though it’s monsoon consulting, you’re not enormous, you know, creating tidal waves and tsunamis. No, just little lightning bolts, you can create a tidal wave with a few amount of people. That’s true. That is true. Well, our 300,000 on Tiktok today. There you go. That’s just today, that much breaking news that we didn’t make it to our slide show because it just happened. Is there any more questions that came that you think could be instructive for us? I think there is definitely some people that just felt really frustrated, you know, that they wanna do things this way or they want to try new ideas and the other team member doesn’t want to. And I think that Emily and I are both early adopters of technology. We’re both really open minded and it’s like you have, everything is moving so fast right now. You have to be open to new technologies and new ways to communicate with your donors. And if you do things, the same thing over and over again, you’re gonna bore your donors and you’re gonna see attrition. And so I think that just one of the main takeaways is be creative take risks. You talked about an idea that failed and you have to be open to failure to be able to be successful. And I think that both of us have that same ethos and we brought that to our teams and that’s why we could create so much success in a short amount of time. You know, while I was there, our development team brought in close to him, million dollars over our goal. We could not have done that without the support of the coms team and all of their creative ideas and immersing our donors in this message that what we’re doing is important and vital and urgent. And that’s where I feel like you’re missing out. If you’re not harnessing your communications team, you’re missing out on the bigger ripple effect you can make for your donors. I’m dying to leave it there because that was a beautiful closing. However, there’s a story that you teased a story of a failure that was, that’s instructive. Why don’t you tell that story? Yeah. So sometimes your op ed that you craft that you spend so much time on does not get picked up. So we have had, you know, an op ed on the front page of the San Francisco Chronicle. And then there was another time that we spent a lot of work on an op ed on the very sexy topic of leaded aviation gas. I know people are falling asleep already. So this is actually a big problem because in this small little municipal airports where the small aircraft are flying, a lot of leaded aviation gas is released. And then the folks living in that area have high blood lead levels. So we wrote this op ed about this California airport and how the Children living nearby had blood lead levels on par or worse than those in Flint during the height of the lead poisoning crisis. So we had a lot of facts and figures and a lot of solutions that talked about our litigation kind of making, you know, unleaded aviation gas more prominent and prevalent. Um and nobody bit, we pitched it out a bunch of different places and nobody bit, but it was ok because what we ended up doing is posting it on our blog and um kind of made lemonade out of lemons and that page has been one of the most viewed pages on our website. So it all worked out in the end even though we failed along the way to place the op ed. How about we leave it there then? A good uh a willingness to share a failure that resulted in a highly viewed page. And uh also uh Shannon’s uh two minutes ago, very good wrap up, which I was, I was, I was very tempted to end there, but I wanted to hear the story. You can’t tease the story with failure though, but that’s why it wasn’t a failure. That it was the most red page on the blog and on a linkedin article which, you know, really harnessing all the linkedin tools is a great way to reach your audience. And I don’t think people should be afraid of failure because if you’re trying new things, you will fail and you should embrace it and learn from it and it’s going to work out, especially something that’s outside your control. Like whether newspaper accepts your op ed or not. Exactly. Exactly. But if you don’t try, you’re certainly not going to get published, right? And then you balance out with things. You can control your blog, hosting your own virtual town hall, hosting your own panel event, you can control those things. So yeah, you have some percentage of stuff you’re thrown out into the world and hoping it sticks and the other half you’re actually controlling and make sure it fits within your strategy. That’s Shannon Bowen founder and CEO at Monsoon Leadership with her is Emily De Frisco, senior director of Communications at the Center for Environmental Health. Shannon Emily. Thanks very much. Thank you. I’m glad. Thank you. And thanks to you for being with nonprofit radio’s coverage of the 2024 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Next week, more from 24 NTC with strategic meetings for teams of one and cyber incident cases and takeaways. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by Virtuous. Virtuous gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools you need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow, giving, virtuous.org and by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supports, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org past flexible friendly fundraising forms. Love it. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.