Tag Archives: outcomes

Nonprofit Radio for August 21, 2023: The 5 A’s Of Awesome Fundraising


Cara AugspurgerThe 5 A’s Of Awesome Fundraising

It’s a valuable back-to-basics conversation with a bunch of tips you’ve probably never heard. Leading us through is Cara Augspurger from Donorbox.



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[00:00:35.76] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite Heb Mittal podcast. And oh, I’m glad you’re with us. You’d turn me into a mono. Thus, if I had to see that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming?

[00:00:59.48] spk_1:
Thank you so much, tony. We have the five A is an awesome fundraising. It’s a valuable back to basics conversation with a bunch of tips. You’ve probably never heard leading us thorough is Kara Augsburger from Donor box on Tony’s take two.

[00:01:02.29] spk_0:
It could have been the end for me,

[00:01:12.22] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org.

[00:01:21.65] spk_0:
I love that. I love that alliteration. Kate, fast, flexible, friendly fundraising forms, love that.

[00:01:29.32] spk_1:
It sounds cool, but it’s not very fun to say

[00:01:34.42] spk_0:

[00:01:37.39] spk_1:
very tough. Now, here is the five A’s of awesome fundraising.

[00:02:08.04] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to welcome Kara Ox Beger to nonprofit radio. She is a longtime development professional, currently serving as fundraising coach for donor Boxx and focuses on consulting with nonprofits of all sizes. Her expertise is in coaching, annual fundraising, project management and communications. She’s on linkedin Kara Ger with A P, not A B. It’s not.

[00:02:14.32] spk_2:
No, it’s not tony

[00:02:18.75] spk_0:
and the company is at donor box dot org. That’s correct.

[00:02:22.03] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Thanks so much for having me. What a warm welcome pleasure.

[00:02:26.13] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you from Noblesville, Indiana.

[00:02:29.41] spk_2:
That’s correct.

[00:02:30.90] spk_0:
And we’re talking about the five A’s of awesome fundraising. So this is not just, this is not just, you know, lackluster, mediocre type fundraising. We’re talking about awesome fundraising,

[00:02:46.79] spk_2:
right? The five A S, you know, our donor box team coined the term the five A’s of awesome fundraising to really introduce the concept and help people remember the cycle of fundraising. So, you know, identify, cultivate, solicit steward, we just made them a little easier and put an a next to each of them. So we have, it’s

[00:03:22.00] spk_0:
the cycle that we’re accustomed to. Exactly. But all right. So refreshers are important, valuable basics, basics, lots of people trigger, you know, they’ll say, oh, you know, that’s just a good reminder, good reminder. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna share good reminders. Excellent, excellent. So, uh I’ll let you introduce your, your first. A

[00:04:21.71] spk_2:
Well, sure. So we often at donor box, we are working with fundraisers who are really, really good at delivering on their mission. They’re really, really good at um creating innovative programs, but maybe they’re struggling to understand some fundraising fundamentals. And so my job is to kind of create ways to make learning those fun and engaging. And so that’s was the basis around the five A’s. So first we attract new supporters to your organization, you know, that would be identi identification and cultivation and then we ask them to come alongside you by giving, then we promptly acknowledge those gifts, right? And then we account for those donations and we do it again and again and again. So it’s attract, ask acknowledge account. And again, so those five A’s, they’re not fancy, they’re not innovative, they’re nothing new. Um But those are kind of those fundraising fundamentals that successful nonprofits are actively doing and actively incorporating into their communication cadence to bring donors into the life of the organization and really cultivate that sense of belonging.

[00:04:40.93] spk_0:
All right. So let’s, let’s focus on attraction. Yeah. What, what uh what are your reminders there, your tips.

[00:04:51.46] spk_2:
So, you know, you, you need to attract new supporters to your organization and then you need to make sure that your organization is attractive to those. So, uh you want to make sure that you are um actively on social media that you’re telling compelling stories of your mission and action, you’re showing people ways to get involved by volunteering and things like that. So you’re attracting those people, you’re, you know, the fundraising fundamental. So you’re cultivating them to your organization

[00:05:31.48] spk_0:
and some of those uh some of those uh a attraction mechanisms might be as simple as, like, sign a petition. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t have to be come in person or something. We can, we can have, we could have a lift but something that gets people uh initially

[00:05:34.05] spk_2:
engaged. Yeah. You’re aware, you’re building awareness for your organization. Yeah.

[00:05:38.95] spk_0:
OK. That’s another good a but that’s not in awareness. It’s like a subset. So, uh I’m not, I don’t want to pervert the whole donor box. Uh the whole donor box. A team of five A make it six.

[00:05:49.76] spk_2:
We don’t want no.

[00:05:50.75] spk_0:
Every time you say an A word, I’m not gonna say, oh, there’s an A but uh awareness is a subset of attraction and being, being attractive. Talk a little more about the, the being attractive part how you, you know, how you appeal.

[00:06:37.23] spk_2:
Yeah. So you know, you repeat the cycle and you want to keep your organization attractive to your current supporters. So maybe that’s where you introduce a survey or you ask what appeals to them most about the mission. You could uh engage with them through some newsletters, some good communication about what’s going on or, you know, in person. So you can invite them to coffee, invite them to events, invite them to volunteer. Um And it’s not just about doing those things, it is about staying relevant in the minds of your supporters. You know, we know supporters are supporting fewer organizations these days, dollars are limited. And so you really want to stay in the forefront of your supporters’ minds. And so that’s where you really just want to keep that communication cadence. Um going throughout the year, you don’t want to just go, go to your donors when you need something, you want to communicate and build relationship and stay in relationship with them.

[00:07:05.75] spk_0:
Yeah, that is critical. Not only sending solicitations, you know, however many times a year, let’s drill down, let’s drill down a little bit on the, uh, the surveys, surveys. What, what’s your advice around survey? You know, like length? Um, I don’t know, time of year, uh, how to get folks to do the survey, you know, what, what are your tips around those things?

[00:07:53.68] spk_2:
You know, I think my, uh, my advice to anyone is as, um, personal of the ask as you can make it. I think the more, um, engagement you’re going to get around it. So if you could say, hey, tony, I’m gonna send you a survey in the mail or in the, you know, in your email. And if you have five minutes to really give me some insight into what you see, you know, in the organization, boy, I would really value that if I could ask you that on the phone or if I saw you at an event or something like that, you might be more engaged and more apt to complete that survey. So, that, you know, and you can even personalize that at a scalable level through some emails, some make your email look really personal through some mail merges and things like that to really make it seem like you’re speaking one on one to the receiver. So that’s how, that’s an

[00:08:20.22] spk_0:
introductory email. Yeah. Yeah, couple of days I’m going to send you or something

[00:09:13.79] spk_2:
like that or, yeah, I mean, just however the communication, the communication schedule works out for you, you could even, you know, package it together with the survey link or something like that. But yeah, just as, as interpersonal as, as, as possible. So it looks less like it’s from the organization and more from the person who’s sending it, whether that’s the executive director or the communications manager, the development manager, whatever it is. So I think that one on one really feeds engagement. Um, but as far as like length, what we’re seeing that is working really well is micro content so short, actionable. Um, you know, I think if people see how far along they are and in the steps, you know, you’re at step one of five, question, one of five, something like that. That kind of keeps people motivated to complete it as opposed to this never ending survey that, that never ends. I know, I know,

[00:09:14.86] spk_0:
I appreciate the progress bar. You’re 10% or 20% or right, one out of five or something. I like to know that I like to know where the end

[00:10:31.15] spk_2:
is. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you have um, well crafted questions, so you’ve worked with, you know, a board member or your staff ahead of time to determine what is, what’s your outcome on this survey? What do you really want to glean from this information? I’m working, I’m on the board for um, a nonprofit here in uh the Indianapolis area that works um to provide um services to people who are a little food insecure. Um But the foundation, so there’s a foundation that’s set up to, to kind of um resource the food pantry and, and the services. So there’s some confusion right now on, do I give to the church that runs the services or do I give to the foundation or whatever? So, what we’re doing is we’re crafting a survey to say, hey, do you understand the difference between the foundation, the church, the food pantry? How does that work? Um And, and really trying to get to the purpose, our purpose is clarity around our communication and where to direct people to give money, but we need to work backwards and craft the questions so that they really are um short and compelling and impactful and give us the answers that we need. So I think as long as you’re, you’re really paring down um and really honing in on the purpose of the survey, I think you’ll be able to, to draft some short, uh, really, really great questions that’ll, that’ll drive the, the answers that you’re looking for.

[00:10:56.06] spk_0:
You have a maximum number of questions that, that you’re working toward in your survey.

[00:11:13.30] spk_2:
I’d like to stop it. I’d like to leave it at five. I think five is a good number. Um, you know, I think if they’re quick questions, if it’s multiple choice, those would go a little faster than those open ended. So maybe you’d have a little more wiggle room for some questions there. But I think, you know, too, I think there’s always an opportunity for an executive director or someone to step in after you complete the survey and say, hey, tony, those were really great um examples you shared in that survey, would you be open to a conversation to talk a little bit more about what you think and you know, those opportunities, those touch points are really part of those five A’s, you’re keeping that conversation going and saying, I see you and I value the input that you have into our organization.

[00:11:41.30] spk_0:
I think people would be very grateful for like personal follow up. Now, if you’re, you’re sending thousands of surveys, you know, I don’t know. Uh hopefully you get more than a dozen responses. Sometimes surveys can do poorly. So you might, you might only get 12 or 15 or 20 responses and then you can be personal um with, with those, with those folks and look, I mean, you’re thanking them in a way for, you know, for being among the small percentage of people who did reply.

[00:12:09.52] spk_2:
Oh, for sure, for sure. And what, what’s the, what’s the old adage that you ask for it? You ask for money and you get advice, but you ask for advice and you get money. Well,

[00:12:19.67] spk_0:
that, that may result indeed. Or you, or you might, you might get a, a new volunteer or something. You’ll, you’ll certainly get somebody grateful. Uh, after you’ve, you’ve, like, personally followed up and said, you know, your answer to this was important or

[00:12:32.16] spk_2:
whatever. Yeah. It’s an opportunity. It’s an opportunity for conversation, an opportunity to grow that relationship.

[00:12:58.25] spk_0:
Another thing, um, folks have said is that you don’t ask for information that you, uh, you can’t preserve and, and act on like, if, like, if you’re asking a survey question, would you rather we email you or use direct mail or text? Then they give you the answer. You have to, you have to honor their, their answer. Either that or don’t, don’t ask the question. Yeah,

[00:13:14.38] spk_2:
exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you’re not gonna segregate that information into your data and you end up mailing someone who said they only want an email, then it may have backfired on you the whole process, right? You really,

[00:13:17.36] spk_0:
yeah, then you have hurt the, then you hurt the relationship better to not even just ask if you don’t have the capability for text. Don’t offer communications, you know, by, by

[00:13:26.08] spk_2:
MS for sure, it goes back to the whole big, big goal that what outcome do you want from the survey?

[00:13:33.26] spk_0:
Absolutely. Very true. As you said at the outset, right? All right. Uh You feel OK with uh attract and being attractive?

[00:14:15.40] spk_2:
Yeah, I think so. I think, yeah, identify and cultivate and um really get them introduced into all that your organization offers. So that is a track. OK. Then you’re ready to ask. Oh, you are ready to ask. And I think so many nonprofits think that that ask is exponentially um hard and it’s an exponential, you know, use of time in fundraising. But really if you’re doing these other things, well, that ask gets a lot easier, but it, it is important to ask and if you are only telling, you know, stories of impact and um you know, really advocating for your cause, but you never ask for money, you’re missing a big opportunity there.

[00:14:23.10] spk_0:
Now you ask, could come in other forms too, right? It might be. Now, now we’re talking about something more than, you know, sign a petition, but it could be volunteer.

[00:15:14.76] spk_2:
Mhm Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. One pitfall I see with that though, tony is um a lot of times in a fundraising appeal, I think we sometimes as nonprofit professionals are kind of uncomfortable about that ask and what we tend to do is gloss over it in the fundraising appeal. So, hey, tony. Can you give me $50 or volunteer or share this email? I think it’s really important in a fundraising appeal to have one call to action and if you’re asking for money and for a volunteer and to share the word, guess what people are going to do, the one thing that doesn’t cost them money. So if you’re asking for money, make sure that that’s super clear. And that is the only call to action in your, in your fundraising appeal.

[00:15:47.97] spk_0:
Yeah, I, I didn’t mean to dilute your, your, your, your fundraising. Ask if I was just saying, you know, you could be asking for something else that’s substantial, which is a gift of time. Yeah. But no, I absolutely agree. You don’t dilute, don’t and don’t be humble. You know, you, oh, you know, we hate to ask. But could you, you know, you have, needs, your work is important and you have, needs to, to fulfill that work, to fulfill that mission. Ask with

[00:15:48.71] spk_2:
confidence. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um Fear free fundraising is, is kind of the approach I take there. You, you need to know what you do, why you do, why it’s important, um, what you’re doing differently than anyone else and be really, really proud of that. And when you kind of have those things ingrained in to your thought process, why do you care, then it’s much easier to communicate that to other people? And you don’t feel like you’re tap dancing around it all the time

[00:16:17.36] spk_0:
and, and you don’t want to take for granted that, that people understand all that, you know, because you work in it, day in, day out, week after week, et cetera. But, but everybody else

[00:16:28.17] spk_2:
doesn’t. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:16:31.82] spk_0:
Um, have you seen any, uh, any good, uh, asks lately that you can, uh, you can share?

[00:17:48.29] spk_2:
Well, we’re, we’re getting ready for the biggest ask of the year, right? The year end fundraising season is always a good one. Um You know, I help a lot of organizations really learn the art of appeal, writing. And so, um I’m excited to, I actually have a live in person workshop with a lot of new fundraising professionals in, in about two weeks. And so I’m excited to work with them through that process and see what they come up with. Um But as far as good asks lately, gosh, they’re all over the place. Um We have a nonprofit that we work with called Maya’s Hope and I actually just saw on linkedin before I got on this call, they had a really clear compelling ask to become a monthly donor at $10 a month. And what they show was a picture of a boy in Ukraine and what he, he has special needs and his mom is unable to work right now, has two young Children. They live in a war zone, right? Um But what $10 a month provides for him. There was a photo of it and it was some diapers and some hard to get medication for his, you know, for his situation. And it was saying for $10 a month, um you can give this mom peace of mind that her son is gonna get what he needs for the month because you give to this organization, you put the, the materials in this mother’s hands and relieve her burden and you know, relieve the, the pain that her son is going through because you give to this organization and it was just such a clear, compelling, um, as it really stuck in my mind and I saw it really just a few minutes ago.

[00:18:17.38] spk_0:
Um, it’s personalized. Yeah,

[00:18:19.63] spk_2:
it was, it was

[00:18:20.49] spk_0:
mom. It’s her son.

[00:18:22.19] spk_2:
Mhm. Yeah. And, and you know, and I think that they target demographic. I think a lot of their donors are probably mothers, um, who are kind of feeling the same things about their kids. And so they have a, it’s a woman run organization and I think they have a lot of female donors who just really feel that the tug at the heart strings and understand when they give a little bit and another mom might have some relief.

[00:19:07.57] spk_0:
Maya’s hope is an example that uh we’ve cited in some of our sponsorship messages with donor box because they, they have incredible, I forget what their percentage of increase was when they, when they moved to the donor box platform, but I don’t know if it, if it was the 400% 1 or it was the 267% 1 or whatever. But they’ve been cited in our, in our

[00:19:22.81] spk_2:
message for you. Oh, yeah, I actually I meet with them once a week and so my, my meeting with them is this afternoon. So I’ll be sure to mention that to them that, that you’re noticing them. They’ll be very happy about that. It’s time for a

[00:20:00.99] spk_1:
break. Donor box quote, I regularly experience how donor boxes easy setup and ultra swift pay fast checkout deliver. What we need. Donor box allows us to focus on why we do this, our clients and their needs. End quote. That’s from Jenny N A board member and recurring donor at Organic Soup Kitchen in Santa Barbara, California donor box helping you help others. Donor box dot org. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:22:34.42] spk_0:
Thanks, Kate. I had a rough experience harrowing experience earlier this week. It was just uh four days ago. I was in a car accident. My car was totaled, totally smashed in the front. Uh It’s total. I walked out of it. Uh My, my steering wheel airbag went off my head, hit it and III I smelled this acrid burning smell and I heard hissing, I quick, you know, checked myself, I unbuckled my seatbelt and I was able to just get out and, and walk remarkable could have been, it could have been a lot, a lot different. There were four cars involved and there was someone who was not as fortunate as I was, he was, had to be extricated from the car by the fire department with those jaws of life and they bandaged his head and I could see there was still blood coming even through the bandages. I could see him and he was taken away on a stretcher in an ambulance. He was the worst hurt. You know, it just, it just could have been a lot worse who obviously grateful that I was unscathed. Not even a nose bleed. Uh My, my glasses didn’t even bend, hitting the, the airbag makes me think of my uh father in-law who’s no longer living. Uh because he was an automobile engineer. Cars are engineered to absorb impact with, with crumple zones in the front and the back. I, I needed the one in the front. That’s what saved my life, you know, but crumple zones and safety zones and airbags and the sensors and that’s, um, that, that’s a credit to my father-in-law and all his colleagues in automotive engineering. And it makes me think about how, how close I came and just makes me grateful for scientists, engineers who make our lives safer. That was just this week. And that is Tony’s take too,

[00:22:39.05] spk_1:
Kate. I’m glad you’re with us, Uncle tony.

[00:22:41.45] spk_0:
No, thank you.

[00:22:44.06] spk_1:
We’ve got, but loads more time now back to the five A’s of awesome fundraising with Kara Ox Beger.

[00:22:55.77] spk_0:
Anything else on the, on the ask?

[00:22:58.13] spk_2:
Well, you know, I think so much effort is spent on thinking of that first gift. Um but I think it’s just as important to really earn that second gift. And so that is actually a really great segue into our next A OK.

[00:23:20.15] spk_0:
Oh, I just, I thought of one. OK, before we get, before we get to this, to the next a uh acknowledge um in, in writing, you know, if you’re, if you’re doing, whether it’s digital or print II, I hate to see the asks buried in a, in a dense paragraph, you know, make it, I think, make them stand out now again. Don’t be, don’t be shy and, and humble in your asks. Yeah. Make sure

[00:24:58.19] spk_2:
that it’s clear somewhere. Yeah, what we really encourage people to do so we teach appeal, writing and what we encourage people to do is start with um their direct man letter as an anchor of their communication series around their ask. And in that direct mail letter, what we have them do is make sure that you can understand if you only read the bolded parts of the letter that, that actually tells the whole story. So you have the um the problem. So, and I mean, I’m gonna use this, this Maya Hope example again. So, um mom doesn’t know what to do. Uh son is in need of medication. So, you know, throughout you’re telling a narrative but, but that is, that’s the problem, right? And then you talk about how the organization can help with that. Oh, but Maya’s Hope provides these materials and then you put your call to action and for $10 a month, this child can get what he needs and mom gets peace of mind. Um So if you, if you in the whole narrative of the letter, if you bolded those pieces, the, the reader would be able to really understand what the problem is, what your solution is and how they can help. And then what we do is encourage people to take that anchor piece. A lot of people don’t even do direct mail, but I think it’s a good idea to even start by writing it. And then you can syndicate that direct mail letter into an email or an email series and some social media posts to follow up with that. So you’re really taking um a story and using it as a fundraising campaign for a short period of time and really curating all of your communications around that, that anchor piece.

[00:25:21.21] spk_0:
Do you have advice around uh maximum length of uh I mean, clearly, you know, emails should be shorter but, but uh uh you know, maximum length for a direct mail, you know, print piece.

[00:26:17.87] spk_2:
Well, you know, Mal Warwick is kind of like the, you know, the official go to for me for direct mail writing and he says longer, longer is more compelling. Um, four pages. I’ve never in my life sent a four page appeal letter. Uh but they say, you know, the research says the longer the better I’ve received some in the mail. Um, but no, I, I tend to stick to a front of a page in the back of a page and insert a response device and a carrier envelope in a return envelope. So that’s the package I usually like. Um I think a lot of people think that you have to, you have to just limit the length of a mailed letter to just the front of the page. But I think you can go a little longer. Ok? Especially if you’re telling a good story. I mean, it’s all about storytelling and and really keeping the donor engaged. If you, if you’re writing, well, the donor will turn the the donor will turn the page and keep reading.

[00:26:33.14] spk_0:
Acknowledge. We, we, we almost, we almost got there. You teased right now. Now we’re into that important acknowledgement. I know you’re gonna say that acknowledgements should come fast.

[00:26:49.30] spk_2:
Yeah. So earning that second gift right? We know that acknowledgements need to be prompt and personally um and really make an impact. You want the reader to understand that you are so grateful for their support, so that sincere gratitude, so prompt, personal, sincere gratitude. That really goes a long way.

[00:27:06.00] spk_0:
I love sincerity. You know, and you don’t have to be long to be sincere, genuine heartfelt in your, in your, in your gratitude.

[00:27:21.33] spk_2:
Absolutely. And, and I think, I think, you know, I think that’s something that we, as people are really craving right now. That authenticity, that sincerity. I think that we’re living in such a fast paced life and we have all this A I and all this tech around us that when we get something sincere and authentic, um it really stands out to us.

[00:27:37.92] spk_0:
I’m a big fan of handwritten notes.

[00:28:37.26] spk_2:
Yeah, I just wrote about 15 last night for a fundraising campaign. I’m working on. So, yeah, I, I feel it. I, I’m a big fan of them too. I love receiving them. I love sending them. Um I know it’s a lot of work. I have, I have organizations that I work with. They’re like, I don’t have time for that. Well, there are ways you can, you can modify it. You can do um a mail merged email that looks like it just came from your, your inbox and you can really be like, hey, I just saw your donation come in. I, I really wanted to let you know right away um what this will do and you know, you can, you can really be a little creative. You can even print some Acknowledgments hands, sign them and write a little note on them. Um I received an acknowledgement from an organization, the other day where it was actually written and signed by a volunteer. And that’s OK. I think that those kind of things are just fine. I think you just really need to acknowledge that gift and we know that um that, you know, I think donor attention is down right now. I think a lot of people are saying I’m losing donors and I’m losing donors. Um And I think acknowledgements are the key to that donor renewal. You know, I mentioned earlier, a lot of organizations focus on that first gift. Um But really earning that second gift is what’s important and that’s where acknowledge comes in.

[00:28:55.36] spk_0:
You just gave a lot of good uh tactics for, for, for handwritten or, or something very close to it. Uh Another one is that, that’s, it’s a terrific activity for a board board members. You give them a list of 15 or 20 they can either they could do it in a board meeting or they could take it home with them. You just give them the stationary, take it home with them. I’m sure they’d be happy to mail them,

[00:29:38.78] spk_2:
make a phone call, they can make a phone call. Yeah, leave a voicemail. Yeah. Give them a little script that, you know, most, most calls go to voicemail anyway, just give them a little script that they can leave in a voicemail and, and that’s really impactful. Um What, what always helped me when I um was in a role, I was in a um director of development role and my primary responsibility was acknowledgements. And what I did is I blocked out the last hour of my day on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I made that my handwritten note uh time. And so I went through, I went through the reports. I made sure that they got um notes, but I built it into my schedule and then it was just part of my day and part of my routine for the week. And then I got to go home feeling like I actually accomplished something right

[00:30:37.96] spk_0:
for anything that’s, that’s important. You know, you have, you have to make the time, you’re not gonna find it. Listeners maybe heard me say that if you’ve been listening a while, you’re never gonna find the time, you’re gonna make it. So you have to make it if handwritten notes are important to you an hour a week, two hours a week, delegate it to your board, delegate it to volunteers. That’s a great idea. You know, it’s, people are gonna be thrilled to get a handwritten note because I, I agree with you that we are thirsting for some, some more personal contact coming out of the pandemic when we were, we were prohibited from having personal contact and, and you’re right with artificial intelligence uh growing in popularity to get something that, you know, is genuine, authentic. Um or even the substitutes that you mentioned, you know, if you can, if you can’t do the literal handwritten note, the ways you mentioned to come close, you know, something that’s, that’s email. That, that sounds genuine.

[00:31:07.67] spk_2:
Um, and again, yeah, I think, I think when it comes from the individual, not the organization that adds just a little more impact, um, it makes it seem a little more authentic and, um, yeah, I, I think that one on one is where the relationship grows.

[00:31:25.08] spk_0:
And then if you want to follow with a more formal letter that, you know, maybe says, you know, the, uh it gives your tax deductible tax deductibility disclaimer if you want to include that, you know, that could follow several days later or a week later after the, after the, the, the, the phone message from the board member or the volunteer or whoever. So, you know, you don’t have to incorporate it all in one. And well, how do I sound genuine if I also want to put a tax disc disclaimer in?

[00:31:53.15] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. Um The

[00:31:55.33] spk_0:
disclaimer message could be automatic but the, the first thank you could be genuine, sincere and handwritten or a phone

[00:33:07.90] spk_2:
call. And there are some ways you can blend the two I know um donor box, you can customize your donation receipt, so you can warm up that language that they get right away. When they make an online donation, you can add in a little story or a video. Um You can really warm that up. I like to use the analogy. I think a lot of people are confused. I’m glad you brought this up, tony because I think a lot of people are confused about the difference between a donation receipt and an acknowledgement. And so I like to use this analogy. So your donation receipt is like the receipt you get um at the grocery store. It’s very transactional. It says um you know, you purchased this item on this date for this much money where in a management is like, um, a thank you note to your favorite aunt because she sent you a birthday gift. And so you would never say dear auntie thank you for the sweater valued at $49.95 that you mailed on August 15th. Um, no, you would never say that you would say. Wow, thank you so much for your generosity. That’s my favorite color. I’ll wear it all the time. Um, and then I think there’s a big pitfall too. A lot of people will ask for a second gift in their acknowledgement. You know, hey, thank you for, for giving $10. Would you give us $10 a month? No. And use that analogy then as your, as your litmus test, you would never say dear auntie, thank you for that sweater. Can you send me some jeans and some shoes to match it? No, you would never do that. So if you kind of use that as a litmus test of what you’re sending out. Um I think that that’s, that’s usually what I do in my mind. Anyway,

[00:34:09.76] spk_0:
there’s another opportunity to ask for the follow on gift to ask for the gift to be a sustaining gift monthly. You have other chances at that. Don’t, don’t blow your, your gratitude time on on talk about diluting now you’re diluting your thank you with a with a second ask. It’s just like you said, don’t dilute your ask, don’t dilute your, your gratitude with a with a second ask or request for anything. You just make it a straight. Thank you and touch the, touch the person again at another time.

[00:34:12.91] spk_2:
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, if you’re doing those other things, well, if you’re, if you are acknowledging and you’re showing that you’re accountable for those donations and you’re, you know, continuing to make your organization attractive when you do ask for that monthly gift or whatever is next, they might be able, you know, raise their hand a little faster and say, yeah, I’m in

[00:34:44.45] spk_0:
indeed indeed. Give them the chance, right? Let, let them, let them maybe self identify too. All right. All right. All important. Uh We’re up, we’re up. Well, go ahead. You, you announced this one, you see them at the beginning, but you can announce our fourth. Awesome

[00:35:39.70] spk_2:
A our fourth A is a count. And so that would also fall under stewardship in that, you know, typical fundraising cycle. But this is where you’re showing impact for your gift. And we know this is important because, um, donors say they stop giving because they believe that their gift won’t really help or the money won’t be used. And so that’s where you have to account, account for that hard earned money that your supporters give to your organization. So show the impact, show the, the numbers of people you’ve fed or the number of shoes you’ve given away or the an animals you’ve saved, tell stories of how life change happened because someone gave. And so that’s what I mean by account, it’s as easy as just showing a little impact. It could be numbers, it could be stories, it could be anything that really gets that point across and keeps people wanting to learn more about how their gift, um went to work.

[00:35:46.87] spk_0:
And Maya Hope example, you used kind of incorporated the two into, into ask and also account, you know, by showing what the impact would be for your $10 monthly gift. You have another example, maybe of a, uh, of a, of a impact, an account that, that stays with

[00:37:09.82] spk_2:
you. Yeah. You know, there’s always, you know, nonprofits do a good job of kind of some year end annual reports that maybe you get in the spring or after the fiscal year and that’s not really what I’m talking about. Um, you know, I just got an, an, um, an email from a nonprofit I support. And it said in a very informal term, you know, in a, in a very informal tone, y’all really stepped up because you gave you, um, provided money for this many teens in this program and you helped dig a well at this site in Africa and you did this and you did this and you did this and it was about six bullet points of what I did and it, I know that my, whatever, my $25 I gave or whatever didn’t do all those things. But it, but addressed it, it said corporately because you gave these things happened. And so I think those are, that’s just a really quick, easy in my inbox. It took me two minutes to read it or less. Uh, but I, that stuck in my mind and I was like, yeah, ok, my money went to work and it did all these things. That’s really amazing. So that’s what I mean by account that doesn’t have to be a large, you know, overly processed brochure mailed, you know, that kind of thing. It can be stories of impact, it can be one on one. You know, I’m sitting across to you from coffee and, and I wanna tell you about somebody who came through our door and was hungry or thirsty and how, you know how we helped them. It’s as easy as that, that’s a count

[00:37:38.12] spk_0:
and you distinguish it from the, uh, the annual report

[00:37:56.31] spk_2:
and, and, and that, that is an impact report. Yeah. And that, I mean, I think that that’s important too. That’s a really great way to show um in a very large format how to, you know, you’re accounting for those donations that are entrusted to you. It’s intimidating for so many nonprofit professionals to think. Oh, I have to knock out an annual report. It’s important you should do it. But throughout the year use these little opportunities to show um that you’re accounting for those donations.

[00:38:12.69] spk_0:
Ok. Anything else? Uh accounting, accounting

[00:38:26.79] spk_2:
wise, well, acknowledge an account, makeup stewardship. Good stewardship means donor retention, right? So that’s, that’s the end goal, donor retention. They want those donors to come back for their second gift and their third

[00:38:29.64] spk_0:
gift. Yeah, because we know that acquiring a new donor costs us so much more than retaining. And uh yeah, our retention rates are very poor, right? Like 20% or something, the 80% of donors leave after the first gift.

[00:38:44.09] spk_2:
Oh, yeah,

[00:38:44.86] spk_0:
17% is our retention rate or something. It’s very, very pitifully low.

[00:38:51.26] spk_2:
So for yeah, you’re bringing in 10 donors and eight of them are turning around and never coming back. But the statistics show that if you have repeat donations. So those people who give second um make their second gift and third gift, their retention rate is closer to that 60% level. So those are the kind of numbers that you really want to, to um report on. You really want to keep your eye on as you are creating your fundraising strategy for the year.

[00:39:19.49] spk_0:
And that’s our uh again, right? Our, our fifth, our fifth a of awesome fundraising is again,

[00:40:10.49] spk_2:
again, yeah, repeat. It’s, it’s just repeat. So as you repeat the cycle, you know, you’re focusing not only on attracting new donors, right? But making your organization attractive to your current supporters. So you’re engaging them, you’re inviting them, you are starting that conversation and just keeping that conversation going and you keep that cycle going year over year. We have um one woman who runs an organization who’s in our fundraising coaching and she shared with me that they have an organizational commitment to ensure that any supporter receives at least two communication touch points before they’re asked again. So that is just a framework that you can have as part of your organizational practices and really just kind of keep that in the back of your mind. So if you’re not over asking, um now there are seasons that are very ask heavy like year end fundraising. You might feel like you’re really, really asking a lot during that time of year and that’s ok. Just make sure that you’re balancing out your communication touch points throughout the year so that they’re not all ask heavy,

[00:40:27.79] spk_0:
you’d probably like to see an annual plan.

[00:40:29.98] spk_2:
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Communications

[00:40:32.17] spk_0:
marketing plan.

[00:40:34.14] spk_2:
And when you’re mapping out that plan, keep those five A’s in mind and just make sure that you’re, that you’re plugging touch points in that, that apply to those throughout the year.

[00:40:45.52] spk_0:
Anything else, Carrie, you wanna, uh, you wanna leave us with could be, could be outside the five days of awesome fundraising if, if you like anything. Uh, um,

[00:41:15.80] spk_2:
yeah, I say, you know, now is really the best time to shore up some of those good fundraising practices to really um take time to say, ok, what am I doing right now? Have I done a good job of, you know, accounting for the donations people have given to me. Have I taken time to say thank you. Um And that was a really good time to really assess that and make up for a backlog if you haven’t before we get ready for that year end fundraising. So that will help your organization stand out in your supporters’ minds when it’s, when it’s time to ask again. But I think now is a very important time to really make sure that you’re aligned for all that’s ahead in the coming months.

[00:41:40.81] spk_0:
Kara Ger with A P, not with A B No, she’s the uh fundraising coach for donor box. You’ll find her on linkedin. You’ll find the company, of course, you know, because uh they’re graciously sponsoring nonprofit radio, you know, that the company is at donor Boxx dot org. Kara, thank you very much. For sharing. Thanks so much.

[00:42:08.78] spk_2:
Oh, it’s been such a pleasure, tony. Thanks so much for having me next week.

[00:42:15.72] spk_1:
We don’t know, but it’ll be a good one. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:42:19.01] spk_0:
I’d beit, you find it at tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:42:31.82] spk_1:
Were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org. I love

[00:42:40.97] spk_0:
that alliteration. And by the way, when I said tough, I didn’t mean tough for you to say I meant too bad. You gotta say it

[00:43:03.87] spk_1:
too bad yet to say. Try to say it five times fast, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising for, for your nonprofit. Our train is Claire Myer. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is like Scott Stein.

[00:43:24.35] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for June 20, 2014: The Logic Model & User Personas

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Cindy Gibson: The Logic Model

Cindy Gibson
Cindy Gibson

Cindy Gibson, our grants fundraising contributor and principal of Cynthesis Consulting, goes into detail on this visual depiction of your outcomes and why funders are increasingly asking for it. And what’s the Theory of Change got to do with it? These annoy many grantseekers, but we’ll put your mind to rest. df



Debra Sharp: User Personas

Me with Debra Sharp
Me with Debra Sharp

What is a persona? Why are these fictitious people important to your website? How do you build them? Debra Sharp is digital director at Manifest Communications and we talked at the Nonprofit Technology Conference (NTC).






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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent you know me, i’m your aptly named host and i’m very glad you’re with me. I’d suffer ankle oh, sing sponder leitess! If i learned that you had missed today’s show the logic model cindy gibson, our grants fund-raising contributor goes into detail on this visual depiction of your outcomes and why funders are increasingly asking for it. It annoys many grantspace occurs but well put your mind to rest and user personas. What is a persona? Why are these fictitious people important to your website? And how do you build them? Deborah sharpe is digital director at manifest communications, and we talked at the non-profit technology conference and tc on tony’s take to have you been paying attention to your state registrations in each state where you solicit donations responsive by generosity. Siri’s hosting multi charity five k runs and walks. I’m very glad that cindy gibson is back. She’s our practice. Temic, she has a phd. Yes, you’re our practice. Temic. She has a phd and over twenty six years of experience with non-profits, she has led leader she has had. Leadership roles in several national foundations and non-profits. She was a non-profit times top fifty power and influence, sir she’s principle of synthesis consulting that c y en th e s i s and you’ll find her on twitter as at single bh si n g i b welcome cindy gibson. Hi, tony, glad to have you back. What’s this, so be here. Thank you, what’s, this logic model all about. Well, it’s, do you want me to say what it is we’re talking about? Well, tell us what it is, and we’ll get into what it’s about, i guess, okay, what is so logic model is basically just a visual depiction of what a non-profit or a foundation or any kind of organization is doing, why they’re doing it to what end? And then also outlines and stipulates a set of outcomes or out puts that the organization wants to see from those activities. It’s, it’s almost like a flow chart of hey, okay, a flow chart and why here? Why is this? Ah, well, yeah. Okay. Wireframe ders asking for it. Well, funders have been asking for logic models for a while. Um, and it’s it’s. You know, i can’t pinpoint the exact time, but it was about ten years ago. It really sort of first on the scene, this whole notion of a logic model. And then along with that came the phrase theory of change and sometimes those two things air used interchangeably. Um, for good reason. But for some reason the jargon, um, was unsettling to a lot of grant acres and looking at if you look at one of these flow charts, it can be very intimidating, and it can look very complicated, ah, and daunting and a lot of non-profits just didn’t see the value and spending time putting together this kind of this kind of structure, so there was a lot of pushback about it, and there still is some eye rolling, but i think gradually a lot of non-profits the ones i’ve worked with, most of the ones i worked with and for that i know of have actually found the exercise to be pretty helpful. Okay, now we’re in an increasingly visual society, so that could be a part of me were certainly on the web in social networks visual is ruling video is ruling, so that could be a part of what’s happening what’s happening here as well? Um, yeah, go ahead. Well, it’s also, you know, i think that it’s also that some of this workers we now in the sector and particularly lansbury’s, become a little bit more technocratic. Um and we know that the technocratic sort of they like their charts in the and there, you know, i had to say personally, when i see these kinds of charts. Sometimes my eyes glaze over a little bit because i don’t resonate with that. And i know that that’s a different kind of learning sometimes some people like that stuff, they learn from it very quickly when they see something diagrammed and deconstruct a bit others down. So again, that’s that can be very daunting to people still a lot of information in the one moflow chart, but some people it does really resonate. Yeah, and i actually i have actually a different reaction to it. You showed me an example of one, and we’ll have links will put links on the on the takeaways in the facebook page so people will be able to see these but the one you showed me, but i have a background in it, my back to my college days with information systems, and we usedto chart logical processes through ah, you know, ah, proposed information system like a sales system or an inventory control systems like that. So to me, it it actually helped a lot, but i could understand why somebody who’s not used to the visualization and the arrow’s pointing from one to the next could be a little off put by it so i can understand that. Yeah, all right, can i say that? You know, i think people what i do with ease and i think why i totally agree with you? I i think logically, and i like deconstructing things like that in my head. I think that you can do that in a way that doesn’t have to be, you know, into a chart necessarily you could do it in a narrative, but the concept behind it is the same, which is, you know, sitting there for forces organisations to sit there and be very clear, a doubt, their goals, and then what they’re going to do to reach those goals, what their strategies are going to be, and then how they’re going to measure that and very, very quantifiable in some ways and quantitative terms that really important and it’s it’s a really useful exercise because it really, really again pushes non-profits to be very clear about why they’re doing what they’re doing, and it can actually help them down the road, look at what they stipulated and figure out whether they’re on the right track as they go along, and if not you know how to tweet that it’s very, very clearly stated, okay, so so so it’s got value with your outcome is visualisation ah, visual model or a narrative there’s still value in it, but your point is, more funders are looking for the usual the visualization that’s sort of the flow chart. Yeah, and, you know, as a former funder and someone who works with a lot of funders, i still, um i think it’s a valuable exercise. And i should say, as an aside, i think it’s important to emphasize that this is not, you know, an exercise that non-profits just sit down one day and dio it’s something that takes time. It should take time. Um and it usually does, because once you get a group of people who worked for a nonprofit who are very different in some ways the board, the some of the stakeholders, whoever you want to have in this process, they’re all going to have different ideas and so getting consensus around that and then clarity in terms of what everyone wants to do and what they see is important and getting that down and nailing that down in a very structured way. Is not an easy or overnight task, so you could oh, i think when you send when i was a funder and a again, i it’s very helpful for me to see and know what that organization is doing, that everyone’s behind it, and then that’s going to be there sort of framework going for it’s just a very helpful tool for both the thunder and the organization. I think from a strategic planning perspective to perhaps sounds exactly on i was just going to say that a lot. It’s not a coincidence that, you know, this exercise has become almost during er and strategic planning. Now, i should say the flipside of that that’s not to say that non-profits have to spend, you know, five hundred thousand dollars hiring, you know, big consulting firm to do these kinds of there. There are people who make money on this. Um, well, i think it’s helpful, definitely toe have somebody help walk you through this and challenge your assumptions and put this together with you? On the other hand, i don’t think it has to be something that lasts for a year and costs a lot of money. A lot of this work and i can talk about this. I can send this to you and put the put these up in the length. There’s a lot of tools out there to help non-profits do a lot of this themselves, okay, we’re going to go out for a break a couple minutes and then send you and i are going toe talk in more detail about what the pieces of this are s so we’re not just talking about the the abstract, but already, okay, so stay with us. You didn’t even think that shooting getting, thinking, you’re listening to the talking alternative network, get in. E-giving good this’s, the cook said, wear hosting part of my french new york city, or guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back. French is a common language, yet they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and it common desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them, shed their story, join us, pardon my french new york city every monday from one to two p, m. Oppcoll are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll dahna hi there. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Sorry, i can’t do live listener love today. We are pre recorded today, a couple of weeks early, but of course i send the live love. I just can’t do it explicitly. City by state, city, by city and state by state and country by country but live love live listener love to everybody who is listening live. And, of course, those pod class pleasantries always go out to the nine thousand people listening, wherever you are. Car treadmill, subway airplane pleasantries out to the podcast, listeners. All right, cindy gibson, let’s, get into this damn thing! Well enough abstraction. Now, andi let’s, let’s, hold off on the theory of change, which you mention because that’s a bigger that’s, a biggest little bigger subject. But aside from theory of change, which we’ll get to what? What belongs in our logic model. So this is important to this. Preface this and say again ah, sometimes it’s easy to get wigged out when you look at centre’s, funders have their own templates of logic model that they want non-profits to fill in so there might be they might. Ask for elements that you don’t necessarily have or have thought of if, for example, fill a couple years ago, i scanned about twelve or fifteen ah funders request for logic models for their grantmaker and then i also looked at different templates that were available to help non-profits do this, and they were all different, that there was really no standard. So so what i did was i actually just sat there and distilled some core components of logic model that i think everyone can use, and then you have that core and so that whenever anybody asks you for something different, at least you have that basis to work from, and the core is pretty straightforward and your goals long term goals, mid term goals, short term girls, sometimes people break those out that way. Other times people don’t ah, a theory of change, which you mentioned, which is something we can talk about later we will, which is what briefly it’s, just a series of if then statements about how your organization believes change is going to occur. Then there are objectives that you will stipulate that the, you know, basically what you want to accomplish through your work and how those will help you reach your goals. Um, the strategies that your organization will use and by strategies that can be anything from doing research teo. Advocacy to community learning to technical assistance. Those air strategies on ben. Finally, you get down to the activities, the specific things that your organization is going to do on the ground. You should also include a target population. Who are you targeting to either work with or work on behalf of who’s going to benefit from your work? Um, and then the the outcomes that you hope to see now i should say that a lot of funders discern make a designation distinction between outcomes and output. And there is a difference. Go home. Outputs are quantifiable numbers. Um, and outcomes are usually, uh, something that that results from those outputs, for example and output would be we got, you know, fifty children immunized in our community andan outcome of that would be that the rates of children contracting the disease decreased because the result thank you. That’s helpful example. Thank you, let’s. Go back to the to the goals you mentioned it’s. Sometimes done. You say long term. Medium and sorry, short term, long term in medium goals. What kinds of terms are we talking about? What’s, short, what’s short, mid and long. Well, you know, again, this is it varies. You know, some organizations are very explicit. Um, about and i think it’s easier for organizations that do provide pretty concrete services because they can say, you know, in ten years we’re going to be serving this many people it’s much clearer than it is, perhaps for organisations that doom or advocacy activities. But it really is up to the organization to decide that unless of your being asked by a thunder too, to be very clear about where you think you’ll be in ten years or five years, you know, it varies and short term generally i just sia’s, you know, over the next year ah, mid term is probably over the next three to five years. And then long term is, you know, the next ten to two whenever so that’s generally my rule that i use. But again, it’s very okay, let’s. Go let’s, let’s talk a little more about the strategies because the strategies air sort of the general leading to the specific activities. Is that right? Is that right? Yep. Okay, um, and you mentioned a couple strategies like research and community learning and, um, advocacy things like that. Um, do you do you break those out into each bye bye. Each goal. Do you have to do that by each goal? And instead of goals and objectives, or you don’t have to? Well, you know, again, it depends. I mean, i as my way of doing it is i actually start with goals. And then for each goal, i tried to have at least one objective, if not more. Ah, and then once you clarify those it’s pretty clear what you’re going to do in terms of strategies. Buy-in strategies don’t have to match up with each goal or objective, but it’s usually gonna work that way. You know, if my objective is to ensure that my state legislature, pat you know, passes x number of of provides funds for x number of programs over the next five years, what are my strategies than that i’m going to use to get to that objective? So, that’s why the flow chart is so helpful because it makes you start with the end? Goal in mind, which any strategic planning expert will tell you is the heart of a good strategic planning, and then go walk yourself down back into it. How are you going to get to that point on? So your strategies, we’ll help you do that, and then those strategies lead you to, you know, if i’m gonna work on a legislative issue, are you encouraging public policy makers to allocate more funds for something? Clearly? You know, one of my activities is going to be meeting with state policymakers differ from your briefings with them. Yeah, so that’s sort of just workflows down one, okay, so so it sounds like it would help to start from from the end increase in creating the whole logic model starts from start from the end on dh working backwards, absolutely. And and that’s. Why? I think i said on a previous show that i did with you, it actually brings together the two big pieces that a lot of non-profits tend to fall into two camps, you know, again, there’s this one camp that are very good at talking about the big goals in the vision and the problem and the theory of change and you know, but they’re not particularly good at saying how they’re going, what they’re going to do to get tobacco hole and then there’s this other group of non-profits they’re very good at saying, well, we’re going toe, you know, do a bunch of of activities are community here they are, but there’s no connection with those activities to larger goal. So this exercise is a really good one toe help bring all of coherence to everything this organization does and why it’s doing it? The theory of change. You you had mentioned that it can stand alone, or it could be a part of your logic model let’s dive into that. Now what? What is the theory of change? These if then statements? Yeah, the theory of change is is basically, as they said, a syriza if then statements that explain how your organization believes change is going to occur. We believe, for example, we believe that if x success is in place than accept sexual occur, so an example is, if you know, your organization works on homelessness. Um, you might. Your theory of change might be that, you know, homelessness is going to be resolved when we have more affordable housing for people versus an organization who actually believe that change is going to occur by insuring public policies that prevent poverty that leads to homelessness. So those air two different theories of how these organizations see change is gonna happen. There’s no right or wrong it’s just being very clear about how you think that you’re going to get changed around a particular issue, our effort that you’re doing and so so how do you get to that? So that’s your that’s your goal? If you believe that homeless is going to be resolved with more affordable housing than start with that, and then what are your assumptions behind that? Well, you know, our assumptions are that people need housing and they don’t have it or they don’t have access to it. So if we build more housing, then people will have access to low income housing. So you start with this again and goal and then talk about so what am i assuming when i say that it’s going to be resolved this way and everything that we say that we’re going to dio or we thinks gonna happen has a siri’s. Of assumptions behind it, whether their political, whether their ideological, whether there is something you believe or your organization believes. Those are assumptions about how you’re going to get changed. And you want to know that a theory of changes and you want to be explicit about what those assumptions are exactly. I mean, i can give you an example. Please think examples are very helpful here. Okay. So let’s say that your goal is to reduce the number of young adults who use ah, methamphetamines or drugs. Assumptions about the problems could be something like reducing availability of methamphetamines is an effective strategy to combat it’s you. Another assumption might be delaying initiation of meth use. We’ll decrease the demand for those drugs in the community. Another might be a community can change access to meth. Um, as a precursor to other chemicals and drugs. So then the theory of change become something like, um if if my organization invests time and money in decreasing the mass production in my community by inhibiting access to it, um then local meth production is likely to decrease. Then you go on to the next one. If then that is decreased if access to mathos decreased than the use of that drug is likely to decrease. And then the next step is if i use prevention efforts or advocate for those to include matthews in those prevention, drug prevention outreach efforts than young adults are likely to delay that youth. So the theory of changes dahna when a community comes together and implements multiple strategies to address young adult use of meth in a comprehensive way, young adults will use left that’s, your theory of change. Okay, um, and in that you’re identifying the people, we’re going to be involved in this populations, a friend and what what they’re what the outcome’s gonna be and how you’re going to achieve them. So it’s. Like who, what and how krauz where i’m looking exactly? It’s, it’s, pretty much the three components, populations, outcomes and strategies. Okay, okay, onda geun. We’ll have links on the facebook page, so i think that will. That will help a lot. Let’s, talk about this as sort of a za broader look a little more into the the strategic planning value of this. I mean, it’s starting to become pretty clear as we’re talking about it, that that a lot of constituencies should be involved in developing your theory of change in your and your and your your logic model home. Yeah, i think you mentioned the board. What about getting people? What about getting the actual people who are benefiting from the services? Is that is that a possibility? I think that’s critical, i mean, my personal opinion because i do a lot of work on civic and reg resident engagement in buy-in non-profit work, so i feel very strongly, personally that you should have, um, stakeholders, whatever they are, whoever they are, whether they’re organizations that you work within the community to do your work, or whether they’re people that you who’s who benefits from or use your services or programs should be at the table when you have these conversations, i think they could be invaluable in helping organizations construct realistic outcomes and output because they’re on the ground and they base, they know how things work in reality? Um, well, i’ve seen organizations invest a lot of money in time and doing very, very strong logic models have had very, very seemingly clear outcomes that they’re going to use to assess private progress, but then when they start implementing their programs and they they haven’t involved people who are participating, those programs there they find pretty quickly that the outcomes they thought were goingto happen or that were important are either not happening or not very important to the people involved who who may see outcomes very differently from somebody not directly involved in those programs. So the more you can bring in, um, you know, some of those people tto have these discussions in in a strategic planning discussion as well. I just personally think you’re you’re goingto come out stronger in the end, particularly in terms of what you’re you’re trying to achieve and how you’re going to measure it. Those those same problems could also come from having a faulty set of assumptions at the beginning, and the people who are on the street on the ground are goingto challenge your faulty assumptions. Great point, i think that’s absolutely true, and that does happen. Um, and again, if you’re not clear about the assumptions at the beginning or your, which of course, than feed into your whole theory of how you’re going make something happen of your you’re not goingto your you’re pretty much screwed. Yeah, that’s i mean, that’s the beginning here, if your assumptions or faulty everything flows from those that’s right, that’s, right? So the more checks and balances you can have built in the stronger your model’s going to be okay, you gotta ask some difficult questions and be willing to teo even defend or change your aled different stages, including the assumptions, yeah, and that’s, why again, there’s no right or wrong and a lot of these, i mean, different organizations clearly work on similar issues have very different ways of seeing that issue, you know, conservative non-profit it’s working on, um, an issue of teen pregnancy is going to have a very different theory of change than a more progressive organization working on the same issue, and they’re going to have a very different set of assumptions. That doesn’t mean those assumptions were wrong or right. It’s just about making sure that everyone you’re working with in your organization and outside of it that you’re working with and targeting is all on the same page about those assumptions. Cindy, you gave me a sample logic model to look at could because that’s something that i could put on my blogged associated with this post or with show post for this show, probably not, but i can send. I will give you links, teo. A whole number of resource is that do have examples of them included. You know, the caliph foundation, for example, has a really terrific logic model workbook. Okay, it’s pretty thorough. And it walks you through the process, and there are examples in there. Um, internet has one as well. Again, there are a lot of templates out there that include ah, really? Good example. Okay, we have to leave it there, but we’ll put the will put the links on the facebook page and the under my posted a cz part of my posted takeaways. Cindy, thank you very, very much. Oh, you’re welcome, it’s great. Thank you. You’ll find cindy on twitter at caen, gibb and she’s principle of synthesis consulting. We are sponsored by generosity. Siri’s you know these folks, you know. Dave lynn cielo they host multi charity peer-to-peer runs and walks. If you’re thinking about including something like that in your fund-raising mix, then i asked you to check them out. They do all the back end work so that you can focus on getting participants and fund-raising which is the whole purpose, right? They so they cover these the things that you might not have thought of until you blew it on the first one, and then you realize it on the second one, like portable restrooms and fluid stations and licenses and permits and race bibs and medals and photographs and professional chip timing. Yeah, there’s a lot that goes into this that’s, the back end stuff that they take care of. They have events coming up in new jersey, miami, atlanta, new york city, philadelphia, toronto, talk to them. If you’re thinking about a run or walk and please tell them that you heard about them on non-profit radio, you can get dave lynn at seven one eight five o six nine triple seven seven one eight five o six, nine triple seven or on the web. They are generosity siri’s dot com charity registration you’re supposed to be registered with state authorities in each state where you solicit donations are you? You may ask, what is a solicitation any of these email, postal mail a donate now button on your website and the channels that drive people to that donate now button there’s a lot more about charity registration on my blogged because it’s a part of my practice and the blogger is tony martignetti dot com just search the phrase charity registration that is tony’s take two for friday, twentieth of june twenty fifth show of the year now my interview with deborah sharp on user personas i want you to know that a scheduling conflict forced debra and i off the stage osili debra and me, right? Debra and me forced debra and me off the stage at at ntc, we worked, we worked things out where we reconvened, but we had to move twice, so you’re going to hear a couple of breaks in the audio is going to sound a little different because we’re standing. We’re sitting in a different place than where we started, but we persevered. So that’s, some of the some of the brakes that you’ll hear here’s that interview welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen use that hashtag it’s fourteen and t c with me now is debra sharp, she’s digital director, manifest communications and her workshop topic is user personas it’s not about you it’s about them. Deborah sharp, welcome to the show. Thanks, tony. Pleasure to have you on dh just come a little closer to the mike, would you please so that everybody can hear you? Thank you, user personas i know very little about them, so i’m not gonna even try. Why don’t you explain what they are and why they’re so critical? Sure, well, there are they are really essential part of web development and you’re only going to get as good a website is thie kind of strategy and thinking that you put into it at the front and and part of that fun end is creating these user personas, which are really fictitious people there people you make up, but they’re based on very real segments. There’s supposed to be able to help you understand who were the users coming to your website and what do they need? What their motivations? What? Their goals when they get there because what’s really deadly, especially working with with non-profits but it happens with all kinds of organizations and companies is that you get website development by committee from the people who work inside an organization was all about what they want to say to people, what they have, what they think is important, what they want to put out there, and often what happens is they just don’t have a good understanding of who’s actually going to come to the website and why they’re coming and what’s most important to those users. So that’s, what user personas will help you do? So we need to be thinking about who the people are that’s come that air coming versus what we want to say and put out as sort of a bulletin board for them all to read right and be able tio create a hierarchy, even of information and of users as well, because there’s a lot that goes into thinking about what what a user is, and when they come to your site, you might think that let’s take a non-profit you might think you’ve got your your clients with people, use the services of the organization, you may have volunteers, you may have donors and all of those may then segment into teo different groups themselves and what happened sometimes i’m sure everybody’s been to a website like this where you have no idea where what you’re looking for is it’s like, how do i get there? And i’m clicking and i’m going here and i’m going there and about three or four kliks later, i’m still getting frustrated and guess what? I’m out there leaving, you know? Yeah, and not all of those users may be of the same priority of the importance, for example, just gonna give you an example that we worked on. We’re going so many, but one of the things i shared yesterday was a thiss was a consortium of healthcare organizations who came to us, and they wanted to get a very public conversation started about the expected tsunami that’s coming and health care with our aging population something like in twenty years, there’s going to be something like have two times as many people over the age of eighty and four times as many people over the age of sixteen that’s going to be quite a dent in how we care for people and many of them with chronic health care conditions. So this consorting with all kinds of health care organizations really wanted to be able to put some african scene policy for conversations that there they thought they came to us and they said, okay, we have to reach those people, those people who are going to be over sixty. We did our research, we did some homework, we started put looking at user personas who were the people involved in this conversation, and we did what was really revealing with some social media listening we did and what we found out and this in social media listen, i’m a great advocate of that because it’s very, very natural setting in which to be able to get information surveys are great focus groups could be helpful, but they are artificially set up context so that people are very aware of what they’re answering their very where, what they’re saying, where in social media you’re actually being able to judge in evaluate what people are saying when they’re not being observed, when they’re just commenting on blog’s and when they’re talking to each other. And what they’re sharing, what their concerns are and what their challenges are, what they’re pissed off about and what we found out about out with that is that it wasn’t the direct users, it wasn’t these people over sixty was their children, so we’re talking people in their forties, so the other ones who were talking people in their fifties, those are the people who are worried about what’s happening. So when we created the website that’s who we had in mind, okay, uh, we are we’re going tow pause for second america’s the is the the team here to do a demo? Okay? We’re going to pause for a second. These user personas then are really quite critical. How do we get started in the process of creating one? Well, and we’re going to create many right, all representative of constituents, different groups, exactly so there’s its research and in a number of different ways. First thing to look at this historical data so you want to be able to look at your your website analytics, and everybody should have google analytics it’s free it’s one of the best ways to be able to measure what’s happening on your website who’s coming what they’re doing there and that’s what you really want to dig down into sea what are people doing right now on the website that’s? One of the biggest ways that you have to learn the second thing you want, teo does that? Does that include knowing where they’re coming from, where the good referral sites are? Sure, okay, i mean, it might just be from google itself or i mean now the referral traffic isn’t necessarily gonna help you in determining how you’re developing your website. I mean that’s more about marketing and how you’re reaching people driving traffic to the website. But all of that is gonna be helpful. A cz you plan to make any kind of a redesign start any webb’s not start a new one? Obviously because you won’t have extended in the redesign. Then you’re gonna wanna survey people that’s always helpful. So you haven’t existing website. Put a survey up, ask people questions about what they’re finding about the website right now, what’s most important to them what the information they’re looking for. Are they able to find what they’re looking for? You just ask the more full denture. Things about, uh, that’s going to give you information and understanding how they’re approaching your website right now, then you’re gonna want to talk to you, major stakeholders and you’re gonna want to do one on one interviews and that’s gonna be really that’s to me the most helpful in some ways because you’re really then starting to say, okay, lets get some donors to this organizations that want to talk about what’s important let’s get the people who used the services and talk to them about what’s important, etcetera, etcetera and even internal stakeholders. You want to talk to people within the organization? Start getting a sense of what’s working what’s not and even blue sky. What, if anything that you would like to see here could there be here? But then, once you start doing that, then you have to get the information on who these people are and how they interact with the web and that’s one difference that’s. Very important. We worked with some amazing clients, and most of them have truckloads of audience research. They know who their audiences are, but the kind of research that you have, a kind of data you have on people in the offline world doesn’t necessarily translate to online by that, i mean, so tony, if i were to talk to you and i’m trying to figure out what kind of an online user are you? A two point, oh, user, do you like to share things? Do you like to talk with people? You like to have a community? Do you like to be able to know? Read stories about somebody else and what’s happening in their life? Are you a lean and hurling back person? What i mean by that is way called someone a lean in experience and more of an immersive experience. So you’re somebody, if you’re all lean in person, you want to have your hand on the mouse, you want to be doing stuff and clicking stuff, using tools, getting it, being able to make your way around something in a much more sort of game like immersive way or you lean back where you want clinton served up to, and you want a video to watch or you want cem really compelling copy to be able to read that packages things really nice, so if i don’t know what kind of used ru ru time strapped even. Are you the kind of person who? Okay, i need to read three headlines here scan and if i don’t get it, i’m out of here. Are you that kind of a person? So for example, if we’re talking to potential, uh, major donors, most of them are time strapped, so you need to be able to know if that’s a really major consideration a limitation for them. How did you build your user experience? So you’re gonna satisfy their needs and expectations. So if i don’t know that stuff about you and i let’s say, i think that because i have so much important information to say, i’m going to put it all up here, i’m not gonna prioritize that i’m not gonna make a hierarchy. Meanwhile, you have about forty five seconds to teo give to my website, i’ve lost, yeah, yeah, i’m not gonna find what i’m there for. I had a goal when i arrived and i have not met it and i gave you a minute before, whatever the i mean, the stats were probably even shorter than that on i’m departing and i’ve only looked at i wasn’t deep. It all i looked at one, maybe two pages or something, and i can’t find the beginning of what i’m looking for. Okay, so we need to know all these different constituents so well, because we’re going to start to build a fictitious person, right persona. Exactly. Okay, wait there yet can we start with that process yet? Or is there more to do yet? Well, you have tio no, then you start to give you want to understand who they are, their cycle graphics and what their relationship to the issue is. You want to be able to map out what there falik what their needs are on the website with their expectations or what they’re coming there with, and then what their goals are. What is it that they actually want to get out of the website? And once you start to do that, you start to get a blueprint of these individual users and what they’re going to do. One of the things thie examples i shared in the workshop pompel wass klein it’s not actually also health related, this was for a client in the area of cancer screening, and if you go into a google search. Right now, i i challenge you. Just put in cancer screening in google, and you’ll see what comes up with a top ranking websites and their deadly. I think it’s, just an avalanche of coffee and information on text to making your way through, i think of the average site web, md, or ah, or even cancer dot org’s. Yeah, there’s, just there’s. So they millions of pages. It seems like and it’s all very text intensive, and i’m not sure how well it’s, uh, how well it’s organized. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Lively conversation, top trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m lawrence paige nani, author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. Debra and i have been interrupted twice, now way. We’re doing our best. We were when you’re non-profit radio and you’re not bloomberg or cnn sometimes have to share the stage on dh that’s what’s happening at ntcdinosaur, wearing stage with the one of the generous sponsors of ntc bm they have the stage now, so deborah and i are behind the stage and that’s what happened the first time, and now it’s happened a second time because i had to help the help the sponsors start their program, but were unrelenting. Deb and i are not, we’re not. We’re not giving up it all that’s. Why it sounds a lot different, but the substance is still here. Thank you for your patients, deborah way. Will person twice thank you very much. So where we were at stage, where i’m getting lost in millions of pages, seemingly millions of pages of cancer data from my search, andi, i’m frustrated and leaving, right? So, uh, our client came to us with a problem, and that was, uh it was actually a particular province and candidate was albert, the health services, the agency that’s responsible for delivering health care there, and cancer rates were going down, and they wanted us to put up a website about screening so that people could understand what they have to do and why it’s important, all the details and how do you prepare for it and all of the questions? Sametz all these other sites, so we started to dig in a little bit more about who we’re the users who were the people who are going to come and use this site, and something started to really emerge for us and that especially in that age category of women between forty and sixty, and these are the people, especially your time about breast cancer. We’re really, really confused. I don’t know what it’s like in america, exactly, but in canada there are different guidelines depending where you live. So the provinces have their own individual guidelines for wednesday. Appropriate time to get screened for various things on then there are national guidelines. And, uh, the national guidelines changed about a year and a half two years ago, and this kind of created a lot of confusion and and there’s a lot of information being put out, a lot of media reports and it’s just normal human behavior when you have a lot more information on a lot of confusion, what do you do? You don’t you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You throw your hands up in frustration and hope for the best, right? How most people stop getting screened in the same numbers. So that was the problem. So recognizing that was the problem. Sort of talking to women like this understanding who they were. Thiss forty. And this became our bull’s eye. This woman forty to sixty and who? She wass how she interacted online, what she needed. They did not want a lot of information. They just wanted simple, clear answers. Please, will someone tell us what to do? Does it? Forty. I get screened is a fifty. I get screen, we don’t know. So we set out to make a website that really fulfilled those needs and the website welcome to go to it. It’s screening for life dot c a and it’s very simple for is the number four no it’s not spelled out fo r okay, so what we did is we created a little tool that greets me when you arrive at the website there’s there’s. Just a big question that says not sure if you need to be screened for cancer and it asked you just click on the right figure and find out and there’s two silhouettes of a man and a woman there, and you picked the right one for you. Oh, and as soon as you click on it, you get this slider where you can just now slide your age and as the slider changes, the silhouettes changed shape, so it looks if you go down for anyone who’s going to look like a twenty one year old, you’re going a little bulge in the ways to get into the fifty exactly so kind of a little neat. We gave some buddies people something to interact with right away, so it kind of gets you engage gets you a little bit closer the website, but right away as soon as you say okay, female slide fifty for whom you have your answer, and then it gives you just very, very basic information about what you need to know. And if you go no further than that on the website and that visit, we’re totally happy we don’t need you to go anywhere else. We know that you have the very basic information if you want to keep going there’s a lot of information, if you want to figure out howto prepare for oscar, you can do that way need to relate this back to use their personas, right? But because we had done our homework way up front in terms of figuring out this was the problem there a bunch of users, for example, that cervical affects young women from the wallet sex, women from the time they’re sexually active. Colorectal cancer affects both men and women, but we understood from doing we did prove sonus for all of those people. We even did persona because the client wanted us to for the boyfriend of the the young one. Excellent. So because of that, how hiv affects that but what i’m saying is because we did all these personas and we understood what the problem was. We understood that the most important user was this forty to sixty year old women that’s who was coming that’s, who were those that’s who was seeking the information most that’s whose expectations we needed to fill right away. And we knew that we had to do it in a very simple way without having to make them dig because they didn’t want all that information. They wanted a simple, clear answer, and we didn’t have to make them look for it. The process of the persona you had said earlier, they get to the point, they even have they have names? Wey? No, because we don’t our research, we know their online behavior gets to the point of we know what? What sites they get their news from regular. That sites they go to regularly. What kind of detail in these fictitious people? Okay, that’s. A little bit more of the media profile. When you talk about how they consume good times. That’s it important for these particular women? What we what we drill down into were things like where? They lived professionally what their relationship was, for example, way have different personas when we’ve got to our primary one. So we had one where she was kind of a professional woman in that she’s familiar with, uh, online et cetera her motivations to start taking better care of herself. She’s had a friend who’s died from breast cancer. We fill in all these these things and her motivations because she has had a wake up call and she wants us to start taking better care of herself and that’s. How she’s going to come to be investigating cancer screening way had another persona she’s more of a rural person who lives in alberta not really taking care of herself very much kind of is like that stop broke don’t fix it sort of thing. I don’t run to the doctor and everything, but her children are the ones who have been after her. They’ve been reminding they’ve seen the news they’ve been watching it so the influences in life so this sixty year old person lives on a farm and who’s who’s like this, stoick, the staunch stoic who really doesn’t have a lot of, you know, time for doctors, but it’s at the urge of her daughters, who are making her pay a little bit more attention and start to take care of herself and get scream. So those that that’s the kind of information, then once we have that what air there needs online, what did they do? How does that what is this woman he’s, very two different people knowed how do they interact in the online world? Oh, and again, that comes into the speed at which we want to serve up information, the tool which we wanted to do not make people read a lot because we had our rural women in mind. I didn’t want to give it that sort of very text, you know, dense copy information. So those air, how those pieces start to unfold and then the goals, of course, what do they want out of it? That may be a little bit different as you go in, like our professional woman. She may want a little bit more deeper information for those of the kinds of things, okay, sense, yeah, yeah, and the that i mean, clearly that the time is considerable for doing the research to create these that goes into creating the personas. But i, you know, i think that if you really want people to achieve their goals on your site and achieved their goals, not your goals for the for them, but achieve their goals on the site dahna it seems it seems very clear, yeah nasco piela yeah takes time, but in terms of time, how long is your site going to be up? No, that would be the ants and don’t you want people to be successful on it every single day? Not just occasionally, when someone has more time to spend than the average right? So if you spend three weeks creating these personas three to four weeks doing that up front, my my suggestion is that it’s a really worth investment of time when you’re gonna have a site that’s up for two to three years, who creates the personas and we want to avoid website by committee when you mentioned earlier who’s actually sitting down and creating the the people in willing up my world because i work at an agency we provide. That service and we do it though in a collaborative way with their clients. So we will talk to them about what we’re going to be doing will inform them of what kind of research tools will employ. We might be talking to them are usually almost always talking to them and talking to some key stakeholders within their organizations in addition to outside users and then once we have started tio get a handle on it will have a meeting will sit down with them and review the research, review the findings with them and then the final personas they have to approve everybody’s got to be and on it. But we do provide that service okay non-profits khun do with themselves you can there are ways to do it. We left in our workshop we had actually a a worksheet that we handed out. We actually asked everybody okay, pick a website that’s near and dear to your heart. Pick one user and now fill this out and we gave them all the areas to fill out. And then we had a couple volunteers come up and you were very brave enough to bring up their website then walk us through the use of ok, so it can’t be done internally, but with time commitment, but obvious value benefit at the at the end of the process, user personas percent okay, something could be a lot of fun, too. It can be actually, i mean, there use. They become your little family. Yeah. You know, you get to know them very well. You did. All right. Thank you very much. Thanks. My pleasure. Deborah sharpe is digital director at manifest communications in where we’re in a hurry in ontario in toronto. Thank you. Our excellent. Thank you very much. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of anti season non-profit technology conference and i want to thank debra for being a good sport and two interruptions. Now we’re in the back alley almost of the of the science fair, but the substance is still valuable. So thank you very much, debra. My thanks to everybody at ntc and the non-profit technology network for hosting me there. Next friday is fund-raising day in new york city, hosted by the new york city chapter of the association of fund-raising professionals. I’ll be there getting lots of interviews for the show, but i won’t be doing them live. So what is going to air next friday? I don’t know, but don’t be so nosy, you’ll find out, and you know that it’ll be good. Next friday’s show. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it at tony martignetti dot com. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer show social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell. Social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Our music is by scott stein, you’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out, that’d be great. E-giving didn’t think dick tooting getting ding, ding, ding ding. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, waiting to get me anything. Duitz nothing. Cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Hi, i’m lost in a role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m we’re gonna have fun, shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com, you’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. 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Nonprofit Radio, April 27, 2012: Get Monthly Givers & Strategic Organizations Raise More Money

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Listen live or archive:

My Guests:

Bob Wesolowski
Bob Wesolowski: Get Monthly Givers

Bob Wesolowski, the president of Caring Habits, helps you get habitual monthly donors through electronic funds transfer (EFT). Who are the best prospects and how do you ask them? How do you upgrade donors and when should you say “thank you”? (Pre-recorded at Philanthropy Day 2011, hosted by the Westchester County chapter of AFP.)

Dr. Starita Ansari
Starita Ansari: Strategic Organizations Raise More Money

Starita Ansari is president and chief change officer at MSB Philanthropy Advisors. She wants you to organize thoughtfully around your mission, looking strategically at your inputs, outputs and outcomes, to boost your fundraising revenue. (Also pre-recorded at Philanthropy Day 2011.)

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Here is the link to the audio podcast: 089: Get Monthly Givers & Strategic Organizations Raise More Money.
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Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s friday, april twenty seventh twenty twelve i sincerely hope you were with me last week. I’d be devastated to learn that you missed the to melanie’s. Melanie schnoll begun from morgan stanley we talked about how to look good when you’re recruiting board members and die end of the day. Melanie west from the wall street journal writes the donor of the day column. She and i talked about how to pitch her to get your donor’s covered in that column this week. It’s get monthly givers bob wesolowski, president of caring habits, helps you get habitual monthly donors through electronic funds transfer. You may know that as ft, who were the best prospects and how do you ask them? How do you upgrade donors? And when should you say thank you that was pre recorded at philanthropy day two thousand eleven, hosted by the westchester county chapter of a f p also today, strategic organizations raised more money. Starita ansari is president and chief change officer at msb philanthropy advisors. She wants you to organize thoughtfully around your mission. Looking strategically at your inputs, outputs and outcomes to boost your fund-raising revenue that’s also pre recorded at flying through the day last year on tony’s, take two between the guests. I don’t know what’s going to be on my block this week because i’m recording in early april, but i will look back at a few recent posts. You can use the hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter. Right now, we take a break and when we come back, give monthly, get monthly givers, stay with me. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police crawl. Offset. Two, one, two, nine, six, four, three, five, zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom, too. One, two, nine, six, four, three, five zero two. We make people happy. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Yeah, geever. Oh! Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on tony martignetti non-profit radio. Now i have pre recorded interview get monthly givers, and here is that welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of national philanthropy day, hosted by the association of fund-raising professionals westchester county chapter with the edith macy conference centre in briarcliff manor, new york. I’m with bob wesolowski he’s, the founder and president of carrying habits, which is dedicated to building and operating monthly e-giving programs with elektronik funds, transfers and bob’s conference topic is techniques in monthly giving bob wesolowski welcome. Thank you very much. What do non-profits need to know about just generally before we get into details about monthly giving? What? What are they not doing that they ought to be doing? Perhaps? Well, i think the big secret for for this group is that many organizations have heard about monthly giving programs. Goodness knows they’ve been around since the early nineteen eighties, but many organizations have stayed away either because they think they need to be larger or because they think they need tohave more technology to do it successfully and that’s just not the case. Okay, so what can the smaller organization due to encourage monthly gift? Well, i think there are two groups within the smaller not-for-profits i think in in every case all organizations have a core group of constituents. They essentially make a contribution every time you ask. They may be donors, they maybe board members, they maybe folks who are somewhere in between. And so the first thing that will do is help the client identify who those particularly loyal donors are and work with them first. Ok, so loyalty is where you want to start in developing your prospect. That’s, right? Monthly giving that’s, right? I think we live in a world of finite resource is in a in a perfect world. You could send solicitations to all of your donors all the time. But with with finite resource is you have to pay, choose your battles, all right? And when we’re looking at loyalty, which i’m sure is determined by the consistency of the giving that’s correct over many years over is that right? Not necessarily. I think typically when you start to look at a group that says, where should we go? One of the things that will look at is data over the last twelve to eighteen months and will help to identify those donors who have made perhaps two or three contributions over the last twelve to eighteen months and that’s generally pretty good starting point, all right, and only interested in the size of those contributions or does it could be very small and still qualify as a prospect? Duitz this process is geared mohr towards lower donors, donors whose annual giving might be, at a minimum twenty five to fifty dollars, and certainly no more than five hundred dollars. And the reason we put a limit on five hundred dollars is that in many cases, once you get into that kind of atmosphere, those donors are mohr important, they feel more important, they need to be stroked a little bit. Mohr and in general, they don’t like the anonymity that goes with the monthly giving program. All right, are we interested in ages that important in developing our prospect pool? The only if a number assuming non-profit has the well i know relies a lot don’t, but assuming they do have a jj age is an important consideration agent demographics is important when you consider whether you’ll all for the donor, a recurring credit card contribution or a recurring funds transfer contribution. Okay, but the key factor is loyalty to the organization. Once you’ve got that loyalty than their candidate, once you start to look at the demographics, then you’ll have an idea as to whether you want to offer your donor’s credit card or funds transfer or both. Ok, maybe we’ll talk about how to segment in in a few moments, all right, so we’ve developed our prospect pool. We know we don’t have to be a large organization, we don’t have to have special technology and sophisticated technology. What do we do now? We have our prospects pool identified. We have found that most organizations get involved with this through a direct mail campaign. They’re certainly larger ones that do telemarketing, but direct mail is generally the best way to start with us on dh it’s a simple, simple ask the kind of thing that these folks duel the time now there’s some clients who may d’oh three or five four direct mail appeals per year, there are others who do eleven or twelve buy-in if the group is doing fewer solicitations per year, let’s, say, three or four, we’re certainly not going to suggest that they devote one entire repeal to monthly giving. What we would suggest is that this is included as an option. On the other hand, if a group is doing ten or eleven or even twelve direct mail’s solicitations in a year, there are so many going out that in that case, it’s generally far easier to dedicate one of those solicitations to a direct mail campaign. All right? And if it’s not a dedicated direct mail piece about monthly giving, can it be a simple as as a ps yes, in a letter. So how would we would we work that a little? Well, i think what what happens is that and it’s kind of interesting if you go back and look at the pbs and the npr market has, in contrast, goodness knows they’ve been doing this for the better part of two or twenty or thirty years. And i think where a lot of those organizations tend to fall down is that they look at the program in terms of the benefits to the donor. It’s easy. To do no cheques to write no stamps, to buy no trips to the to the post office, in fact, they are particularly core reasons to contribute to an organization. All giving is his mission mission based. And so the first place to start in that solicitation is if you become a monthly geever you help us lower our administrative expenses, if you become a monthly giver, you give us income that we can rely on month tomorrow. So there’s, this kind of fund-raising is no different than any other fund-raising we don’t, we don’t rely on the ease of giving when we’re saying send us a check, you know, or there are, or the ease of giving in other ways, i mean it’s, it’s, mission driven, it’s, almost love of the organization. And by the way, here’s an option that happens to be easy. That’s. Exactly right. Ok, so we can do this in a ps we could say your gift this your gift could be a recurring gift. Would you then include a form for people to fill out? Or is it better to drive them to a website toe? Have them sign up there for monthly giving. Or what’s the best. You certainly want to include the form because donors tend to respond to the media in which you, you contact them. If you give them direct mail, they’re going to respond to direct mail. If you contact them with an email blast, they’ll respond on on the web. Okay, so you certainly want to do that it’s also important to because over the years the banks have been particularly effective in convincing donors of and organizations about how wonderful credit cards. In fact, we have seen changes so that there are different requirements to enroll a donor with funds transfer as opposed to credit cards. That is to say, if somebody wants a recurring gift with a funds transfer that is out of their checking account or savings account, there needs to be a signed authorization in place for credit card you can simply click through. Yes, this is what i’d like to dio and it’s over and done with the garden tending the ending the ending ding, ding, ding you’re listening to the talking alternate network, get in. E-giving you could are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna hi, this is psychic medium. Betsy cohen, host of the show. The power of intuition. Join me at talking alternative dot com mondays at eleven a. M call in for a free psychic reading. Learn how to tune into your intuition to feel better and to create your optimum life. I’m here to guide you and to assist you in creating life that you deserve. Listen every monday at eleven a, m on talking alternative dot com. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics politically expressed. I am montgomery taylor, and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m kate paler, executive director of dance, new amsterdam, and you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Yeah, let’s, go back to something you mentioned earlier about age being a factor in whether you’re asking someone to do the credit card or the electronic funds transfer from a from a checking account. How does that how does to break down across ages? In in general, what we have found is that donors who are younger, better educated, maura, fluent mohr, disposable income i prefer elektronik giving that is to say, credit cards. Donors who are older, less well off clearly go for funds, transfers. And so, for example, if i would look at a typical catholic client where the age of the donor population might be average about seventy two, seventy three years old, i wouldn’t be surprised if seventy percent of the donors gave with funds transfer as opposed to credit cards. On the other hand, if i was to look at an organization like the union of concerned scientists or some of the other groups, you might expect to see a fifty fifty split. Or you might even see sixty, forty or seventy thirty split in favor of credit cards. And is that just because the older population is less comfortable revealing credit card information? That’s. Exactly. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, we in an interesting side note we were work with a church congregational church up in aa connecticut. On one of the things they found is that the five o’clock service every day, every sunday was the one that was most crowded. They would have a couple of hundred people in there. That was the one with the younger folks and their role in their thirties. They all had the three year old, four year old five year olds. When it came time to pass the plate around. Even though that’s where most of the commissioners were, those collections were the lowest. Everybody had debit and credit cards. When we introduced a monthly giving program for them, contributions went way up. Where do you find roughly the age demarcation line between willingness to do it by credit card or preferring the electronic funds transferred by checking account. Roughly. Where does that age breakdown? Somewhere in the fifties? Okay. Okay. All right. So we were, uh we were talking about the marketing of really, the solicitation of this direct mail is your preferred method. Can you can you can this be successful? By through email solicitation or that that was not, it certainly can. And in fact, one of the things that i’m going to talk about my presentation today at the conference is that there are any number of organizations out there who have one line giving capabilities and somewhere along the way, someone suggested that they include a monthly giving option in there. Some of these groups would would argue that because they allow monthly contributions, they have a monthly giving program. I would differ with that because in many cases, yeah, you have monthly monthly donors out there, but it’s not really a programme groups don’t know what to do with them, they don’t know how to solicit them, they don’t know how to upgrade, they don’t know how to include them in their program. So it’s just starting to feel their way through. I’m with bob wesolowski, he’s founder and president of caring habits. We’re talking about monthly giving, and i want to tie this into something that i saw about doing earlier here on the exhibit floor, bob was fly tying and he’s a fly fisherman and he’s going out on sunday, we’re interviewing, we’re talking on. A wednesday and bob your comment was that the if you if you do your own fly tying, you’ll pay more attention to what the fish are are after is that? Did i get that right? And that’s exactly right? Okay, and i see an analogy in fund-raising i think if you’re if you’re writing some of your own feels you’ll think more about what your donors and prospects are interested in hearing. That’s true, i think you have to know your donor’s a lot better if you’re going to be writing the copy yourself. Okay, so we’re fly fishing for ah moflow e-giving donors we are okay. We’re looking for the players out there and and i’ll confess that when i saw above on the exhibit for doing the fly fishing time fly tying, i thought he was making jewelry. I thought he was a jewelry maker because he had these precise little tools and a light and a little vice holding his the piece he was working on. I thought you were making hearings, but no, not this time. That’s how much of a sportsman i am right? My head is somewhere in a jewelry store. Let’s, see? So then we now have our donors. How how do we thank monthly donor? Do we thank them every month? Is that annoying? How do we go about stewarding these donors that we now have? We have seen a distinction between our religious clients and non religious groups in terms of how they thank donors. I think by and large, if you look at the religious organizations that we work with and that’s roughly fifty percent of our clients, they feel compelled to send a written acknowledgement every month. Even though these charges will appear on the donor’s, a credit card statement or bank statement, thes groups have been doing these hand written acknowledgments or some kind of acknowledgement for decades and it’s very difficult for them to get away from it. On the other hand, when we look at the non religious groups, i think there’s an implicit understanding by the donors that this’s recurring they do not want to get thanked every month. And so, as long as they see that acknowledgement on their credit card statement each month that’s. Fine. I think the other thing that also happens for some of the larger religious groups is they may start out on that path of giving monthly acknowledgments, and in some cases it may take a year, two years for five years in some cases where they finally get enough negative feedback from the donors who say enough alr right, we know it’s gonna happen every month. Save your time saved savior effort. Don’t bother with this stuff. We know it’s going to happen. What about an annual thank you letter? Something like that right at annual is absolutely very important. Very important. You guys, i think you don’t want to be the organization that that cultivates and solicits and obtains a monthly giving process. Donor-centric to say thank you. Just i know the gift is going to come, so why don’t i have to say thank you once a year? Yeah. And i think what’s really important about it is that once you get a donor who becomes a monthly donor, i think it enables you to change the nature of the relationship. If if you look at a group that’s doing four five direct male contribution solicitations each year, every solicitation is give me give me give me it’s it’s a constant ask once you have. That monthly donor, you know, that they’re going to be there for years in most cases, and so you don’t need that constant ask you can begin to provide mohr programmatic information and begin that upgrade process. Okay, so that’s important too? So someone starts at ten or fifteen or twenty dollars a month. Over time, you’d like to be able to upgrade them. Tio i guess twenty five or fifty dollars? Absolutely. And when is the right time to start that conversation after they’ve initially committed to the monthly donation monthly gift? When is the right time to talk to them about the possibility of upgrading? In our opinion, that needs to be either on their anniversary or a program anniversary and let me provide an example, i think you know, if you’re going to be doing sending these things out let’s use example again afore five direct mail solicitations in a year, you don’t want to be as a fundraiser, you don’t want to be in the position of having all of these anniversary’s coming up throughout the year, so typically what a client will do is is group everybody in and say june one, march one that that’s going to be our anniversary date so everybody who was in the program, graham as of that date that’s their their anniversary program and later on today, i’m going to be doing this this presentation with a client buy-in pat chambers daily who’s with the dominican sisters in amityville, long island and the way said they set up their program, they do the solution solicitations every march. All right, donors tend to enroll somewhere between march, and by the end of may or june, they’ll get a group in there on let’s say, we’re in march two thousand eleven. March two thousand twelve will be their first year anniversary because they consider march to be their anniversary month. And then when their two year anniversary march of two thousand thirteen, everybody in the program gets an upgrade, and so they’ll figure the two years into the program, the donor’s comfortable with with what they’ve seen there in the fold. And now you can begin that upgrade process. Okay? And how much is it appropriate to ask them to upgrade to or do you give options? How does that work groups do it in different ways? But if if you’re a small local not-for-profits it’s. Not uncommon to ask for ten percent or flat. Twenty percent. Great. When? When pat started her program nine years ago, it was simple. Would like everybody to upgrade twenty percent. Okay, um ah. Is it appropriate to ask the donor tto decide how much they’d like to upgrade? Or is it better to give them a target? Teo shoot for it depends on the resource is available. There are a lot of clients out there. Smaller organizations that just don’t have the resource is toe late. Laser in specific e-giving amounts. Okay, from a direct male perspective. That’s. Right. So if they’ve got the capability to do that, then certainly they will laze iran e-giving amounts. If it’s a smaller organization, then they’ll simply go in with that percentage amount. Okay, for center, ten percent. Ok, how do we handle the fees there? Are there going to be fees that the charity is going to be paying on these credit card transaction shins? How do we handle that? With respect to the crediting of the donor? Do they get credited for the net or just or the gross gift? As an analogy? Let’s take a check deposit if a donor writes a check to a not for profit, not for profit does not deduct any banking fees associated with that. They credit the donor for the full amount, and the same is true for monthly giving programs. Okay, if i give if i give ten dollars, i get credit for ten dollars and you’ll get credit for a hundred twenty dollars for the year. That’s exactly right? And any banking costs is simply their cost of doing business. Ok. All right, what else should i be asking you that? What else would you like to convey about the annual giving one of the monthly monthly giving one of the things which is also very, very important about this is that, um, assuming the client is brave enough to go out with these upgrades and i say brave enough because often what clients will find is that the average upgrade amount going from a one time donor-centric upgrade amount that we’ve seen over the last twenty some years is about an eighty five percent upgrade. So a lot of times and not for-profit will look at that and say, oh, my goodness, look at tony. That’s more money than we ever thought we would ever get from that guy s so when it comes time to upgrade their say, how, how is it possible that he could give more and so there’s an awful lot of reluctance. Once we get the client over that hump, there are two parts to that successful upgrade. The first is to ask, but the second part is a soft ask, which says, i’m sorry, i can’t upgrade my monthly contribution at this point, but i’d like to make a one time contribution. Typically, clients find that when the donor makes that one time contribution, it is as large or larger than what the upgrade amount would have been. They back off from that simply because there’s a bit of reluctance to make that long term commitment at that point, but they still want to make the contribution to the organization so it’s important to give that option absolutely and in fact, one of the things that pat’s going to talk about today when she finally started providing donors with that soft ask the onetime contribution on there, she has found that in every year that she’s done that and it’s been eight years in a row. There have been sufficiently large contributions that they have paid on their own for that appeal. Okay, excellent. What concerns you, bob about? About? Ah, annual giving monthly giving. I’m sorry, whillans e-giving that we haven’t talked about what? Well, maybe looking into the future. What? What concerns do you have for non-profits that are that are doing this for thinking about doing this, particularly for smaller organizations. One of the real concerns that we see is credit card security and credit cards are excellent. Yeah. Over the last seven or eight years, the credit card company, starting with visa and mastercard, including amex and discover, have put in place a set of security standards. Pc i the payment card security standards, which govern everyone who touches a credit card. Processors like ch i not-for-profits software manufacturers, hardware manufacturers and everybody who touches a credit card has to live by the standards. One of the things we find, particularly among the smaller groups, is a rather cavaliere concern about credit card security. They’ll get the credit cards in, they’ll process them. They may not keep them in a locked vault area. Now we have a credit card number. We have its expiration date. Women. Maybe maybe we have the secure code on the back. That’s. Exactly. Religious code. All right. So now these pieces of paper let’s say hopefully they wanted some kind of standard form. But now what we gonna do with these forms? What are people doing? What should they be doing? Well, what they should be doing, what we counsel is to keep those forms for about sixty days, because that will give everyone involved an opportunity to process the contribution and let the donor sayid on their statement. So that’s that’s one poke a bit and just mentioning that now we’re keeping it for sixty days, keeping it secure. So we walked. It should be locked out on someone’s desk or in an inbox. Right? That’s. Exactly right. What some clients are also doing is doing a two part form for their needs where they will have the name and address in the mount of the contribution on the top of the form and on the bottom they’ll put the credit card number and the expiration date. And after it’s processed, they’ll cut off that bottom portion of it. And do a confetti cut through a shredder on the sensitive information. And even i like to really get into detail a confetti cut, not a not a quarter inch strip cut that it’s got people could piece together in five minutes of will. Okay, we have just about a half a minute left. What else did you want to say about the security issue? The other part is that under no circumstances should any credit card information ever be entered onto a pc and excel spreadsheet a database, because when machines get old, they get tossed in the trash. And who knows what happens to those hard drives? Bob wesolowski is founder and president of caring habits, which is dedicated to building and operating monthly giving programs with electronic funds transfers. And we also know that he’s, a sport fisherman and expert fly tire bob wesolowski. Thank you so much for being a guest. Thank you for having me. This has been tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of national national philanthropy day hosted by the association of fund-raising professionals, westchester county chapter my thanks to bob wesolowski for that interview right now, we take a break. And when we returned tony’s. Take two. They didn’t even think that shooting, getting, thinking thing. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, getting anything. Cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna hi, this is psychic medium. Betsy cohen, host of the show. The power of intuition. Join me at talking alternative dot com mondays at eleven a. M call in for a free psychic reading learned how to tune into your intuition to feel better and to create your optimum life. I’m here to guide you and to assist you in creating life that you deserve. Listen. Every monday at eleven a, m on talking alternative dot com. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics politically expressed. I am montgomery taylor, and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back, it’s, time for tony’s take two at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour. I don’t know what’s going to be on my block this week because i’m recording this show a couple weeks early in an early april so here’s a romp through some recent posts, two of them our irs is helping you. I was on my block. Iris has some good education courses and webinars on their site, which is called irs stay exempt, and one of those courses is applying for tax exemption that’s something that we get a lot of questions about. How do i create a charity? What’s the first step? What’s the second step and applying for tax exemption is one of the irs is seventeen minutes web courses a short lesson on getting your five o one c three designation so that you’re exempt from federal income tax and donations that people make, too. You can earn an income tax charitable deduction, another one of their courses on their site is unrelated business income, and i’ve also talked about that here, with jean takagi and emily chan are regular legal contributors again. The irs site is called iris stay exempt. And their links to all this on my block, which is tony martignetti dot com another post from february was respect small donors. I used the example of the new jersey institute of technology that got a five million dollar gift from ah couple that had given just twenty five dollars, a year, and they have been doing that for about thirty years, and j it was very smart to always thank them and developed a relationship with them, and they’re turned out to be a five million dollar gift in the state of the survivor of the and that couple. So a very good tale about respecting small donors. Both those posts are, as i said on my block at tony martignetti dot com, and that is tony’s take two for friday, february twenty seventh, seventeenth show of the year. Now i have a pre record interview with starita on, sorry from the same conference as the previous interview, and here is my interview with her on strategic organizations. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of national philanthropy day, where hosts are the association of fund-raising professionals, westchester county chapter we’re at the edith macy conference centre in briarcliff manor, new york my guest now is starita ansari. She is president and chief change officer at msb philanthropy advisors, and her topic today is why a strategic organization is key to fund-raising success starita welcome. Thank you for having me, it’s. A pleasure. What is a strategic organization? The strategic organization is an organization that understands that passion is not enough in order to fulfill. The mission is an organization that looks at inputs, outputs and outcomes, and make certain that the day today activities are in line with the strategic direction, de fulfills the mission, and eventually, the vision. Okay, inputs, outputs and outcomes. What? What are and organizations inputs. Inputs as an example. Staff finances the thinking, the human capital, the output would be let’s say it’s a homeless oh, program. Okay, so the output would be we fed one hundred homeless people arika but that’s not solving homelessness. That’s a service. But the outcome with would talk about how many people we have placed our strategy and our success and eradicating homelessness. Best outcome. That sounds like there’s going to be quite a process in doing this strategic thinking to become a strategic organization. What what? What is that process like? How does how does this planning and thought process take place? First, one of the core values would have to be critical thinking, being able to evaluate trends in the market and and trends within the community that you are serving. The other piece is making certain that the people that you hyre particularly from a fund-raising perspective is not purely measured on how many dollars that are raised, but whether or not those individuals understand the mission and can communicate the passion. So what that means is that the people who you hyre strategically aligned with the mission and that you look beyond the job description. But you look at the talents that people have that khun strategically aligned with the mission, creating a team based a t jik culture that you would have to assess almost at every staff meeting. So staff meetings are not a discussion about activities. Staff meetings are a discussion about the strategic plan all right? And we’re going to we’re going to talk in detail about some of the things you just raised. But how does all this relate to successful fund-raising? Because that’s, your that’s, your topic out strategic organizations are ki tto fund-raising success philanthropist want outcomes, not outputs? Philanthropists want a return on investment philanthropists i do not want organizations that are chasing after grants to keep the doors open then therefore those organizations ends up mission drift, whether it’s, individuals, funders or the government everyone once out comes, which requires people to be very strategic and cost effective and an efficient that’s what strategic planning does it lets you be cost effective and efficient, and how you’re using money to get where you’re going earlier. Guest on this show has been dr robert penna, who wrote the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Are you familiar with his work and that that book i am not okay is outcomes, assessment or outcomes the attention that outcomes air getting that’s really pretty recent wouldn’t you say within just the past, i don’t know three toe four years or so where outcomes have become so much part of the non-profit dialogue? Yes, before passion and services, you’re doing good and feeling good for decades for generations, that was that was enough, right? That was, that was enough. And then all of a sudden the outcome started creeping in after the enron situation and now it’s ashley, part of the playing field, and so our appeals cannot just be appeals that have you no shows the single female head of household living in a homeless shelter calling on someone’s heart we have to do more than that. People in people are moving from s not meaning services, but s meaning solutions, and another guest has been ken berger, the ceo of charity navigator there now, and other other organizations as well that rank or or assess mission effectiveness for non-profits paying much greater attention to outcomes than then had been in the past, so this is all pretty recent dialogue. But who’s who’s responsible for the strategic planning process is that the executive director’s, that the board is a combination is that the i don’t know, chief fundraiser, the school of thought and theory that msb philanthropy advisors proposes is that strategic planning should be an inclusive process and that you create a culture where everyone understands from the janitor threw the chairman of the board the direction that the institution is going. But most importantly, if someone works for a nonprofit organization that doesn’t have a strategic plan, well, then the vp of institution advancement or director development should push the agenda and create the culture because it’s going to be expected of that person when they are soliciting gifts, particularly the major gifts and a plan gives people want to know where is my money going? Not just today. Three, four, five years from now. So everyone should be involved in the strategic direction for the organization. How do we trickle this down too? You mentioned even the custodian. How do we trickle it down? And then also, how do we continue it? This understanding with people who come to the organization years after a couple of years. After the strategic plan, they couldn’t have been a part of it. They weren’t part of the organization. How do we continue the trickle down the culture and continue it? What i’ve done in my career is that i value everyone when the janet of buildings and grounds you takes the time to talk with everyone internally, to let them know the direction you’re going with your fund-raising you never know who has a relation, shin ship somewhere back and help with the plan that you have for raising money in terms. That’s how you let everyone know part two of your question times what happens when someone comes aboard and after the procedure plan has been developed? I believe in allowing people to bring their talents to the table, show them this a t jik plan and welcome insight that’s one of things i think is important to our success is that we have to move to a model and non-profit sector where evaluation is not punitive and that everyone can have can give a fee back to how the ship is is moving through the waters, and so a new employees should be able to provide feedback and lend insight, but how khun the plan then accommodate that when the person is new to the organization everyone knew presumably is going to have their own insights. How does the plan continue forward if it’s constantly being altered with new in new insights from from new employees? What a plan is not being altered. The goals and objectives are the same. What will alter is additional talent that comes to the table to move the goals and the objectives forward. So everyone, the alumni, the community, the politicians, everyone will know the direction that your institution is moving and everyone hopefully will embrace it and bring what they can to the table. Okay? And if they’re not embracing the mission and the goals, then they it’s probably not the right fit to be working at the organization. Is that right and that’s the point i was making before when people hyre individuals purely based upon pon how much money they’ve raised versus not just the money they raised, but their passion and their understanding, the mission, the goals and the objectives of whatever going backto homes, eradicating homelessness? Well, let’s talk about the hiring process since we’re headed there. How do you ensure that you’ve got someone who is going to be committed to the the mission of the of the organization? When does that does that start out at the advertising stage of the interview stage? The resume screening stage? How do we do this? Make sure we’re getting the right people. We’re going to be as committed as everyone else in the organization, i think it’s important at the job placement stage for and this is going to be challenging. Okay, organize a challenge is good, though it helps us achieve for organizations to be transparent in terms of their core values. That way, you know whether and not that what’s of interest to that individual is of interest to you. Okay, so if there’s space i mean, does this belong in a job advertisement or you really start this kind of transparency at the interview stage? When you’re talking to people the first time you should be on your website, your mission statement should be on your website things that that that demonstrate your vision should be on the website and so people could say, ok, my passion is is social justice after i’m committed to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender issues, black and brown issues. Disability issues, issues of women. I’m committed to making the world a better place for everyone and valuing everyone and valuing, it said. And we’re talking about sort of coming out in the hiring process. Hyre talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, this is psychic medium. Betsy cohen, host of the show. The power of intuition. Join me at talking alternative dot com mondays at eleven a. M call in for a free second reading. Learned how to tune into your intuition to feel better and to create your optimum life. I’m here to guide you and to assist you in creating life that you deserve. Listen. Every monday at eleven a, m on talking alternative dot com. Hi, i’m carol ward from the body mind wellness program. Listen to my show for ideas and information to help you live a healthier life in body, mind and spirit, you’ll hear from terrific guests who are experts in the areas of health, wellness and creativity. So join me every thursday at eleven a, m eastern standard time on talking alternative dot com professionals serving community. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks. Been radio speaks. Been. Radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. This is tony martignetti, aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Technology fund-raising compliance. Social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays, one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting. Talking all calm. Metoo yeah, for may, i would hyre individuals that demonstrate some type of passion, an experience in that area, in addition to being a plan giving officer clearly so clearly, technical expertise is necessary, but your point earlier, it’s not sufficient, correct. Dr starita. Dr starita ansari is president and chief change officer at msb philanthropy advisors, and we’re talking about how the strategic organization succeeds in fund-raising. What about staff meetings you mentioned earlier? It sounds like you’re unsatisfied with the typical staff meeting in a non-profit she’s, laughing. Now you can laugh out loud. I correct, okay. How? Why? Often, people come to staff meetings with a list of things that they’ve done since the last staff meeting. People should come to staff meetings with things that they’ve done to make gold one goal too, an assessment of how long it took to fulfill gold, wine and gold, too. Looking at gap analysis, are we going to meet the delivery ble on the on the time? God, i’m sorry got now on this show, we have drug in jail, so gap analysis it’s okay, you didn’t know, but you’re you’re treading lightly, you’re shutting closely to it. Um, what is a gap analysis on your strategic plan? There you have a critical path, which are the things that must occur in order for goals one and two to happen and let’s say action item three does not doesn’t occur then that puts puts the other goals at risk, gap announces is is looking at where things are falling through the cracks, where there may be human capital gaps because we haven’t hyre someone for position and how that gap is going to impact our ability for the delivery ble and what i’m saying is that staff meetings should should be analytical and should focus on what’s not working what is working and should be so and we should. Celebrate celebrate our successes as opposed to oh, i met with someone at ford foundation i maybe the program officer danny casey, i met this. I meant that i sent out seven proposals it’s clear, now that that sort of really even may be shallow meeting doesn’t promote the work of doesn’t promote the mission orientation in the goal orientation that we’ve developed around our strategic plan, it just becomes a list of activities, like you said, and that’s, what happens? People go through this a teacher planning process, they hire consultants, and the plants sits there, and no one opens the plan to make certain that is involved in the day to day activities, right? So no more of that let’s go around the table until we’ve done in the past two weeks. O r one week since the last meeting. All right, she’s e-giving the hatchet scientist across her neck, which is that’s not i hope it doesn’t mean end the interview. No, i don’t trends you mentioned being ableto assess trends in the marketplace where the non-profit exists. How does how does one how does your organization do that? One way is if you’re in a community. And i’ll stick with homeless, okay? And, you know, there are x number of shelters in manhattan get a sense of what they are doing, what they’re doing well, maybe opportunities for collaboration, what’s your market advantage, what you are doing well, that they’re not doing well. So when you speak to funders, you can communicate your market advantage. Was the trends in terms of homelessness what’s happening because of the economy? There’s an increasing number, single female heads of households that are homeless? What does that mean when a mother and her children are in a shelter? That wasn’t the case before the economy. So that’s a trend that we bets if you’re in the industry, you should be able to communicate the impact that that trend has over the past three or four years on the children in terms ofthe moving around and the ability to perform well in school, because that night in the same school, in terms of nutrition, how does all of that have have an impact on the population that you’re serving? And are we talking here about the executive director of the agency? Or could this be shared with the board? This this type of being out and looking at what’s happening in the community were, i guess, i’m asking, where does the responsibility life for this? In my opinion, the executive director, senor presidente, is the chief fund-raising officer. Okay, if that person is not comfortable being the chief fund-raising officer than the vice president for development, should equip that person with the tools that he or she needs to rise and fly, which means that development officer, or the advancement officer, needs to give the president of ceo the that data, and take the time to train the board on that information. So when they’re doing friendraising, they can speak about the value that their program brings to the community. We have just about a minute and a half left. Starita how about in performance evaluation? We’re looking at employee performance. How does this all work within that? Snusz egypt planning should be part of everyone’s job description oh, really, okay, i think everyone should be responsible, and i think people should be critical. Thinkers and fundraisers should strategically decide who they’re going to cultivate, why they’re going to cultivate that individual what’s the strategy. Look at a question. Which is working? Listen, i’m an annual fund person which works for my institution, is it the fiscal year end appeal over calendar year and appeal so that’s the evaluation piece, and then you take that and you apply that information to your strategic plan on how you’re going to move forward. Okay? Dr starita ansari is president and chief change officer of msb philanthropy advisors. We’ve been talking about the strategic organization and how important being such is, uh, leads to success in fund-raising starita, thank you very much for being a guest. Thank you. It was enjoyable. I’m glad my pleasure. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of national philanthropy day hosted by the association of fund-raising professionals, westchester county chapter. My previously recorded interview with starita ansari my thanks this week, teo, both bob wesolowski and starita and also to the westchester county chapter of a f p the association of fund-raising professionals, especially their philanthropy day organizer, joe ferraro. Next week i’ll be back in the studio on west seventy second street with paul gearan from professional survey group. How do you use surveys as a prospect cultivation tool? Had you craft your surveys? Tto learn what others think about your work i may call that survey satisfaction or maybe survey simplicity or i don’t know, serving up surveys. I’m not sure if you have a suggestion, i’ll take it, but you know i love a liberations, scott koegler keg lor will also be with me he’s, our tech contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news. Keep up with what’s coming up! Sign up for our insider email alerts on the facebook page. If you like the show, please like the page, you know you can listen live our archive to catch us archive go to non-profit radio dot net, and that will take you to our itunes paige. You’ll see you’ll see about eighty seven shows because i’ve been doing this for about twenty one months. Now you can listen anywhere on your computer the device of your choice non-profit radio dot net on twitter follow me or use the show’s hashtag non-profit radio use at hashtag recklessly our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Our show’s social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. I hope you’ll be with me next friday. One, two, two p. M eastern on talking alternative broadcasting, which you always find at talking alternative dot com. I think the dude in the good ending, you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Get anything? 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Nonprofit Radio for September 2, 2011: The Nonprofit Outcomes Toolbox

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

You can subscribe on iTunes and listen anytime, anyplace on the device of your choice.

Tony’s Guest:

Robert Penna in the studio.
Robert Penna: The Nonprofit Outcomes Toolbox

This is an important show. Dr. Robert Penna, author of “The Nonprofit Outcomes Toolbox” discusses the wave of reliance on outcomes measurement, and gives concrete steps and tools so that small and mid-size shops can stay ahead of the trend toward outcomes assessment. We also talk about Easy Bake ovens and my Eagle Scout project (as an example of what NOT to do).

Tune in on Friday at 1pm ET or follow along on Twitter with the #NonprofitRadio hashtag. 

Here is a link to the podcast: 057: The Nonprofit Outcomes Toolbox.

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

You’re on the air and on target as I delve into the big issues facing your nonprofit—and your career.

If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.

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Zoho welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio we’re always talking about big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. I hope that you were with me last week for first segment the goods on google, plus our tech contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news, scott koegler shared insights into whether google plus is different than what we’ve already got in the social media space and how to help you to decide the answer to the question should we jump into google? Plus, when organization page has become available and we also did a live google plus hangout second segment last week was breaking down barriers. Megan galbraith, managing director at changing our world, had strategies to get public relations, communications and fund-raising working together for greater efficiency this week, the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Robert penna, author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox a complete guide to program effectiveness, performance measurement and results discusses the wave of reliance on outcomes, measurement and how small and midsize non-profits khun ride it comfortably alongside big shops and learn lessons from the corporate community on tony’s, take two from my block this week if donors are investors, then they need a motley fool. I think we’re going to see the rise of investment advisory services. There were a few, but mostly for the wealthy that recommend giving to some charities and against giving to others, which is very different than what we have in the space today. That’ll be on tony’s, take two at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour we’re live tweeting today, use the hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter. We take a break right now, and when i come back, i’ll be joined by robert penna. We’re going to talk about the non-profit outcomes toolbox, so stay with me. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Geever hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio. My guest now is robert penna. He is the author of a complete i’m sorry. The non-profit outcomes toolbox. A complete guide to program effectiveness, performance measurement and results published by wiley and sons. He’s, a consultant and his work includes the application of corporate sector, outcome based tools and insights to the work of non-profits he’s done work for the n e casey foundation, the national geographic foundation and the ford foundation. He’s, an adviser to charity navigator on outcomes. I’m very glad that his work and his book bring him to the studio. Robert. Welcome. Thank you very much for having pleasure to have you. Thank you for coming all the way down from albany. No problem. Live in the studio. In the studio. We hear an increasing amount of talk about out comes out comes measurement. Why is that? I would save it for basically two reasons. A one’s historical. The fact is that traditionally and this goes back easily to the beginning of the last century. No one ever asked non-profits to be quite fair. No one ever asked non-profits to either show evidence of or to demonstrate that. They were having an actual impact that was sort of a field of dreams and concept. If we make it available, things must get better, and it was taken on faith that train people with good programs with enough money would bring about positive change. Nobody actually quite asked altum that all started to change in the late seventies and then into the eighties, and quite independently of one another in various spaces, this concept of a focus on results in outcomes and evidence of same started a crop up, and it began to coalesce and particularly as we are in an in an era of limited resource is it becomes more important than ever for non-profits to be able to say here’s actual evidence of what we’ve accomplished, as opposed to a story about how big the problem is or how hard we’re trying in his forward ken berger, president, ceo of charity navigator who’s been a guest on the show, says that measurement is a battle for the very soul of the nonprofit sector. It’s taking on that great a prominence? Yes, it is that actually that line comes from a from an article ken and i co co authored it really is because there are those apologised who honestly believe in its ah term use before a fair exchange of differing ideas. You honestly believe that non-profits and their clients should not be held tio this kind of accountability that the concept of just making services available truly is the mission of the non-profit space and that as long as they’re doing that, they’re doing their job. The problem is that for all of the money we’ve spent thes problems haven’t gone away. And so the question is, shouldn’t we be putting our our resource is into those programs into those organizations that have proven that there having the most beneficial impact, as opposed to giving it to other places that are perhaps not being as effective? The problems are too big, and the resource is of too scarce not to do this anymore, but it truly is a battle within the sector because there are those who just don’t believe in it, and we’ll get to a little of what their arguments are, maybe obliquely only, but that some of the ideas are so nebulous that they can’t be measured that like a child feeling a more positive. Ah, feeling about education or about going to school, sort of nebulous ideas like that. But actually, those, um, sort of feel good outcomes can be measured. Well, first off, i would argue that if an organization is focusing primarily or almost or solely on, feel good outcomes, they’re rethinking what they’re doing. Number one. But number two, there are proxies. There are proxies in terms of attitude, in terms of behaviour, in terms of various other kinds of things that can be looked at and can be taken as fairly accurate measures of whether or not if what, you want to changes in attitude, whether or not that attitude has changed. So it can be done. And we’re gonna talk about some of the ways that non-profits get there and the way that we can measure these things. Is the butt is the story is the non-profits story the compelling story is that is that dead? Well, it it shouldn’t be dead, but what it should be, what should happen is that should be put in its place, okay? The idea of telling a story is not a bad one, in fact, that there’s a whole chapter in the book that talks about using narrative as opposed to just factoids, because people remember stories where they have a tendency to forget much more vivid right stories vivid. But the problem is, if the if the story first off focuses on how big the problem is and that’s all it, it focuses on, and there are a number of non-profits i won’t name any, but you could probably think of them. You get through with the things in the mail and they show you the picture of x, y or z and it’s always how big the problem is when we’re telling that kind of story and that’s all we’re telling we are, in a way, avoiding entirely the question of well, what are you doing about it? And what other results that you have that you have achieved? So that’s one one reason why the story has to be put in his proper place? The second is, and i don’t know whether we’ll get into this today, but a lot of non-profits wind up telling the wrong story for the wrong reason and ofttimes to the wrong people so that something has to be carefully handle is okay, we have just another minute before a break, what if not a named example? What do you mean? Telling the wrong story? A lot of non-profits will focus on an emotional story that will highlight, for example, a success story, and it will be about this client of that client, but inadvertently, what they’re doing is they’re focusing the attention on that client. What we don’t know is, is that story cherry picked? How representative actually is it what they’re not talking about is thie the the work that the organization as a whole does it’s it’s? Shall we say it’s it’s macro impact? They focus so specifically on the story of this particular client at that particular point that becomes very easy for their overall message of what they’re doing to be lost, counterproductive in counter falik snusz his book is the non-profit outcomes. Toolbox, it’s, robert penna. You’ll find his blogged outcomes, toolbox, dot com, and he’ll be with me after this break. So stay with us because you didn’t think to getting dink dink dink. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, get in. Thank you, cubine. Are you stuck in your business or career, trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future. You dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight. Three backs to one to seven to one eight one eight three. 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Metoo welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio talking to robert penna about his book the non-profit outcomes toolbox right before the break, robert, we were talking about for too much focus on problems, but the non-profit sectors exists to solve problems. So shouldn’t they be talking about what the problems are? Well, again, it has to be put into its proper place in its proper perspective. And this is not, you know, women teo, bash the sector. Okay, i mean, we have to be on it eyes and say, this is a historical perspective and very early on this was how attention was brought. Tea to issues were literally going back to the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds pompel people, for example, he’d carry nation she’s well known for wanting teo, bring about prohibition. Well, what she talked about was all of the ancillary downsides of alcoholism, all right, and the folk. But the focus was on drink. The focus was on people drinking too much. And the idea was they didn’t think think it through to say, well, what’s really gonna happen. What other causes here? It was just too focused on the drinks, and we had prohibition and guess what? All of those issues did not go away. The issues of broken families, the issues of domestic violence, the issues of unemployment, the issues of of poverty didn’t go away just because we we got rid of alcohol for those period that period of time. So part of the problem of the focus on just the problem is it tends to lead to simplistic answers, because the concept is that progresses a lack of the problem when, in point of fact, really, the outcomes approach is that what you want to do is bring about some positive change that goes beyond merely an absence of the problem. So that’s one of the problems with focusing on just the problem, the second thing is that it kind of takes you off the hook if you think about it, for having to say, really what you have done to alleviate the problem or what success you’ve had in alleviating the problem. If every time i come back to you, pick an issue, homeless puppies, i come to you and i sent put something in the mail and tony, you know, look at all these starving puppies and i say it was ten thousand starving puppies and you know it, justin in manhattan or someth that’s a problem and you emotionally are expected to resupply with a cheque will. Now, next year i come back and i say, well, now, there’s ten thousand homeless puppies, this still ten thousand homeless puppies will again. What it keeps focusing on is the problem it does not focus on am i having an impact on alleviating such chelation so that’s, a real sort of short way of describing why that tends to be a ah sort of a circle, you know, like the snake eating its own tail. It really doesn’t get you where you need to pay. And you alluded to earlier the fact that we do still have deep seated, entrenched problems that we have been working on for generations like homelessness, entrenched poverty, etcetera, exactly right be a hunger of broken family, you name it, these problems, or of worldwide and so you might even get thes these appeals from any place on the globe. But it tends to in a lot of ways, i think lead to a sense of defeat, because, i mean, think about it if every single year, you get the same appeal from the same organization showing the same picture of the same a person in need. The question starts to it begs the question, well, what’s happening with my money, what we’ve been at it for so long, and we’re still seeing the same one problem. One gentleman i speak there speaking to some months ago, he runs a non-profit e program in ohio, and he said to me, well, do candy said, you know, we’ve been fighting this war on poverty for, you know, forty something years, and i’m not so sure we have anything to show for it. And part of the reason is that from the beginning, what we have to show for it was not the accent the accent was on making money available and making programs available. You’ve heard a thousand times there, the concept, the underserved community, right, which you could argue about whether they’re actually underserved enough that’s a different story. But the question is what it seems to lead to. It leads to the implication that if you make services available, things will be better. Well, that’s not necessarily true. Just making them available, zach. Will will result in the outcome that you want exactly, and for years social investors you know, traditionally called funders, we’re investing in making services available rather than investing in change, and if you’re investing in change, then there ought to be sameer marks of the change. The whole concept of moving your your your your head away from the idea of being a funder. What’s being an investor is one of the first the first steps what’s a fund interested in a funder is interested in the dispersement of funds in terms of the process, the paperwork who’s it going to what’s it being used for what’s an investor interest is an investor in investor wants a return let’s talk about some more of the language differences that you point out not so much differences, but the important language around outcomes measurement that takes up roughly the first third of the book or so gent generally outputs versus outcomes, outputs or what you do outcomes of what happens because of what you did okay? Example of an output and output is training class, and the outcome would be that somebody got a job by virtue of having been trained. And more importantly, kept the job for a reasonable amount of time when and this was this was rampant in the late sixties and seventies. Excuse me, but when thanks to largely the government we got into being counting and compliance, no organisations were measured onto in terms of how many fannies their head in the seats, how many training training class they help? Well, that was great, but then it turned out in some cases people we trained for jobs that no longer existed or the training was insufficient, or there really was no placement attached to it. So we had organizations claiming success because they’ve had x number of fannies in the seats or because they held so many trainings. Well, they gave us so many certificates, but the end of the day was anybody hyre did anybody did anybody’s life improved? Well, don’t ask me that question when i focused on that we’re focused on how many training on the output not come from the outcomes spring from the outputs. Yes, yes, you need the outputs in order to get the outcomes and they have to be the right outputs. But again, if that is only just your focus is there’s a saying that a colleague of mine, a colleague of mine who wrote a book, if well, you fundez activity that’s. Usually all you get? Yes. Okay. All right. Impact, impact flows from outcome. What? Tell us about it and that’s down the road that’s down the road. In other words, for example, let us say that what you were talking about was bringing possible water. And this is something i was engaged in a t united nations potable water, fresh water supplies to certain kinds of villages. I was pronouncing potable. Is that okay? Potable vote on a laudable somebody made a tomato, somebody from and why you were calling correct one of us. I have to. But i was so it’s possible that anyone when you were with the united nations so that’s a hyre i’m just tony martignetti non-profit radio it’s hyre hyre standing. But you had a situation where okay you’re you’re bringing fresh water. And now you could think of a host of reasons early on why you might want to do that. One of the more interesting ones to me was to alleviate the burden on the women and girls. In the village usually whose job it is to do nothing while david hold water one of the reasons why their educational opportunities were so so stunted was because, well, gee, somebody’s got to get the water and that’s the woman and children’s job. Or rather, a woman and girls job. Well, let us say that you bring it in and let us say that some girl does get to go to school. Well, perhaps if twenty years later when she’s an adult, she actually has a business and gets out of the out of the village, that might be an impact. But the problem with the focusing on impacts these long term impacts is very often the causal chain is extremely weak. The causal chain is broken and it’s kind of hard. Teo teo to take credit for some things. I mean, we’ve all heard the stories of the head start program that’s taking credit because thirty five years later, one of their graduates became the head of some, you know, ceo of some company. Well, you know, thanks, snusz because back in nineteen forty seven, he was with us in today’s end of a corporation. I don’t know. About that, but i honestly would say impacts agreed to have these are the kinds of things you see in mission statements and vision statements. The long term impacts, what organizations need to do is figure out how to translate those things into measurable, achievable, significant, meaningful outcomes. Okay? And shortly we’re gonna talk about the outcome statement and contrast it with the mission statement and talk about what the elements are and how to get to ah ah, eh, a proper and and viable outcome statement. So yeah, and just around impacts, you say in the book impacts or what we hoped for, outcomes are what we work for. We’ve talked about that means your outcomes or what you’re working toward the impact of the the longer term we really we talked about funder donorsearch sis investor. Anything else you want to say about the about? Maybe non-profits looking at themselves as invest, ese. Well, that’s, that’s a very good point. I mean, when someone gives you a gift. Christmas gift. Okay, now we’ve all had the relative who gives us something. And then every once a while checks are you using it? You? Have you been? Did you? Like the sweat in most people that give you a gift, they hope you like it, but they really don’t have any kind of control now. My grandmother used to give me cash, she would slip me cash in by hand like a handshake, and she would always say, spend it like you earned it. My grandmother never did that. You didn’t know i’m sorry, no migraine with a borrowed but no that’s, um, we’re not related even starting now, but the idea is when someone gives you a gift, really the in most cases, the string of scott, you know, the the very there, the influence they have over the use of that gift, et cetera. Well, the problem is when you think of yourself, if you’re a non-profit as a grantee of donor of a donation or giving, okay, the implication that the onus is on you to deliver something back to that to that donor to that investor is i like to use use the term is much less clear than if you see them as investors and you see yourself as an invested because right from the start from the basic language, what we’re making clear is that you owe them a return investments give returns exactly. And so the mindset shift is that i mentioned before the first one is moving from the concept of thunder to investor the second is moving from the concept that what we’re investing in is the provision of services opposed to we’re investing in change, and then what are those changes and how do you define them? And the third thing is that we’re going to be satisfied with an account of activity as opposed to actual evidence of results, performance and effectiveness. The’s a three crucial mindset shifts that the space has to eventually and will adopt, and the sooner non-profits get on this, the better off they’ll be. You quote stephen covey saying, it is incredibly easy to be very busy without being very effective. Well, we’ve always have seen those people who can, you know, go to the office in the busy all day, and at the end of the day, what have they actually accomplished? And the answer is, you know, not a heck of a lot and that’s, you know, that’s, the wife, i’m with robert pennant he’s, the author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Let’s, talk a little about the outcome statement versus the how does it contrast with the mission statement? The well, mission statements of very often pie in the sky and aspirational mean they ought to be yes, and an inspirational okay, okay, but the idea is that the idea that we’re going to solve a problem in our time we’re gonna end poverty, will end homeless. Is thies air the kinds of things that you very often see working their way into? Ah, emission statement or vision statement. The problem is that how do you then actually turn around and effectuated if you basically go to an investor and they said, what do you know what we’re gonna do? We’re gonna end and homelessness. Well, you’re probably not. So when you don’t, what do you could do? You come back and say i failed an outcome statement is based upon a couple of key characteristics that good outcomes have among those are all right. It’s. Meaningful it’s. Not a cosmetic change. It’s. Sustainable that’s. A very, very important one. Right? It’s achievable. All right, there’s, an old state. Everyone talks about the weather. No one does anything about it. Why? Because global warming aside, it’s. Tough to do anything about the weather. All right. But if you a couch your your goals in not slam dunks you want, they want them to be doable with a stretch. You? I mean, you clearly want to push yourself all right. But the idea is that you want it to be something that can be achieved in your lifetime on dh something that can be measurable. The sustainable part is particularly crucial. I think of my involvement. I’m a lifelong scout. Around fifty eight years old. I first joined the boy scouts when i was ten. I mean, eagle scout. Well, i never made it that i was in the order. The arrow you want? Ditigal oh, no, no, no it’s a different. But i have a son who was in the order of the arrow and he’s an eagle scout like vicarious thrills. But we i remember ah, project, where are we going to clean up a lot and throw this lot had been used as a dumping ground. The scouts came in and we weed whackers and rakes and tree pruners. And we turned it looks like a park when we’re done all right. And we congratulate ourselves. Up, up, up we all went home in that night’s peace. Somebody dumped a refrigerator. It wasn’t a sustainable achievement because we didn’t have the facility for either blocking it office, stopping people from dumping again. So the concept has to be again in terms of a good outcome, one of the characteristics and aki one is this concept of sustainability. But again, to go back to your question about the difference between a mission statement of vision statement and an outcome statement a lot of organizations have a tough time differentiating in the book i refer to ah, vision approach. You may recall the book in the book, i had a picture of some futuristic city, teo illustrate that my belief is that mission statement envision statements are both great things, a good ideas, they’re visionary, they belong up on the wall, but they don’t belong in terms of you every day action plan, they’re different from an action plan. It’s the difference be between having the long term goal of i want to speak? I want to be trimmed and having an actual diet that you’re that you’re following. All right? Um, you know, there are numerous examples we could have that we could we could point to okay, i’m realizing now, since we’re talking about since i’m talking about being an eagle scout, you know, i didn’t measure the the outcomes of my eagle scout project, which was teo. Make sure that address is street addresses were visible to emergency services in my little town of altum panned newjersey, which had maybe three thousand homes or so so we looked at every home and where there wasn’t a visible address from the street that a policeman or fireman or the ambulance could find could see it easily. We left a note in the in the mailbox and the note was signed by the police chief, the fire chief and the the head of the ambulance corps. But that’s just that’s just activity. I don’t know what the outcome’s were. I don’t know if more lives were saved. Police response times. We’re reduced fire response times are reduced. That would have been right. That would come into the out moment. And what? And if you had done the eagle project as an outcome, you know, an outcome based thing that was specifically the kinds of things that you would have wanted to look at. Now that was response time reduced. Yeah, you know, i don’t know anything is dramatic is where lives saved but certainly were response times reduced. You could even you could even have done it as looking at things like ups, you know? Did ups have fewer lost deliveries because they were brought to the wrong home. All right, i have thiss factual case up in albany way. Have to hold on your case. Feeling bad? About my eagle project from thirty five years ago, this is tony martignetti, tony martignetti non-profit radio. We have to take a break after the break. We’ll be tony’s. Take two for two minutes, and then i’ll return with robert penna. Stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed, i and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes, or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com, that’s, improving communications, dot com, improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier, and make more money improving communications. That’s. The answer. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com metoo dahna welcome back to the show, it’s time for tony’s take two two minutes at roughly thirty two minutes after the hour. Roughly my block this week is if donors are investors, then they need a motley fool motley fool is an online investment advisory service actually recommends stocks, too, its members and my thinking is, and this is sort of related to what robert and i are talking about if donors are in fact investors to non-profits then are we going to go beyond just ratings that charity navigator and guidestar offer into recommendations, overt, explicit recommendations, invest in this non-profit this other non-profit is not a good recommendation, not abi, maybe it’s ah, hold or maybe it’s even a cell? Um, there are organisations like this that do services like that they’re a couple do them mostly for the wealthy rockefeller philanthropy advisors is probably the best known, but i think if if if donors are becoming investors than we’re going to see this trickle down, too, the average moderate income, modest income investor in non-profits and then, you know, with the with the comparisons across non-profits b bye sector like and with that sector be charitable mission would it be geographic, so that may be the best healthcare investment, as as an investor is a certain hospital or or ah non-profit clinic in aa county or in a town or in the city? Um what it would have come to the point where it’s, you know, your investment in the indianapolis dance company is most likely to pay off or more likely to pay off, and what does pay off mean than some other investment in some other indianapolis arts group or or dance company? So i think related to what robert and i are talking about and just interesting, you know, um, non-profit investment advisory services, you know, are we headed there? There’s more about that on my block at mpg a dv dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday, september second, bringing robert penna welcoming him back now. We were just before the break, talking about the outcome statement hyre should be meaningful, achievable, sustainable on dh the book goes into a little more detail, even oh, and i’d like to because i’d like to help our listeners achieve an outcome statement. Ah, you say that should be bound in time and number. The outcome stable? What does that mean? Well, what it basically means is rather than saying, we’re going to change the world, it’s, that we’re going to specifically a change ah, certain measurable of facet of characteristic of someone for a certain number of people within a certain given period of time. So the idea said, we’re going to achieve x for why number of people within two months, three months, one year, whatever it may be so that the idea is that first off it’s it’s tethered to ah, a certain number of people that you’re going teo achieve this for, and also a certain specific times. So that, for example, the investor knows when the payoff comes, let me give you another reason why this is crucial if you were if you read the book as they know you know you did, you probably came across the work capacity ten thousand times capacity. You don’t have to read the book to hear about capacity over the building in no, no, no, but over here, this is a very, very specific use. If you haven’t outcomes approach, it automatically begs the capacity question, because if you are clear about what it is you want to achieve from that flows what it is. You need to get there, which then challenges you to say, do i have that capacity most non-profits and i hate to use generalizations. But i think in this case, it’s true. Most on traffic. It’s a most people who are aware of the non-profit space when you talk about capacity building the first thing they will think about his dollar signs. All right, we’re having a capacity capacity raising effort. What? It’s? A fund raiser. True capacity, however, has three levels. All right. The first one is structural capacity. How is the organization run? How is it managed? What’s the relationship between the board and the executive leadership what’s the quality of the training of the staff, et cetera. The second is what i call functional capacity. Basically, what that means is if you go, you do have the tools to do what you say you’re going to do. If you were an education organization, then you need educators. You need a curriculum. If you’re counseling organization unique counselors and you need some sort of models, they’re all your inputs. Yes, exactly. The third one and perhaps the most important one is the implementation capacity the’s are the thousand and one little things that not just non-profits but anybody trips up, trips over when it comes to actually doing a job, it could be, for example, twenty you or i are going to put a curtain rod, and it turns out we don’t have a level well, if we don’t have a level, how we’re gonna make sure the curtain rod is level that’s an implementation capacity issue when you talk about a non-profit it could be everything from the from the requirement to provide transportation so the clients could actually get there to something like intake if you want. If you’re goingto have seventy five people, let us say graduate from your program will do you have the capacity for a new intake to actually process those seventy five people? So they’re not standing on line three hours and losing interest and wandering away. Who’s gonna answer the phones let’s say you have a a an outreach effort going on, and you have a training program and you put the word out on the street, but then it turns out that your non-profit is really run all by part timers and most of the time, if anybody calls to get information, they’re either going to get just a phone that rings or they’re going to get an answering machine that’s a capacity questions. So if you’re doing this correctly, it really forces you to look at a number of things, including the capacity that you have to actually achieve the goals. If you don’t have it, then you have to upgrade the capacity or perhaps scale back the goals and flowing from this quantification of of what you want outcomes to be is measurable because they become measurable when you’ve quantified and bound in-kind time number so we can, in fact, measure things that are i have previously been so just vague sort of objectives. Let me give you a classic example on this may sound like a bit of a stretch to euro to your readers, but you and i being roughly the same age, i think you have. You have readers we have listen that’s, right, our reader listeners, because they’re all gonna buy your book, my readers just the non-profit outcomes toolbox published by wile e you recall when when when we were kids, we had things like, you know, lincoln logs and directors were there and they were even wood and the logs we’re made for, right? Okay, this is going to sound like a bit of a weird one, but compare think back, compare when you’re building one of those things, too. When your mother built a big cake, your mother baked the cakes you took all the ingredients she pour them in a bowl should put him in a pan, she put in the oven and she lost at that point total control of what was going on. No one’s going to know whether cake was good or bad until after it was done. It came out. It was cool when you tasted it, and if something were on, there was nothing you could do thinking back, however, to the example, the lincoln logs with the tinker toys, the directors that we had a guide. The guide showed a step by step where we should be at every point in time, if at any point in time, what we’re building didn’t look like the picture we could stop, we could go back and we could fix it. That’s one of the differences of working with outcomes as opposed to not when you don’t work without comes we have to be the only position you’re in is to hope for a good end result, but you can’t control it because you have no idea really what’s going on with the variables. If you’re tracking using an outcome system all right, and it is bound in time and is bound in number, and you do know that by a certain date x number of people should be at stage four if they’re not there, then you still have time to fix it if you have no clue where they’re supposed to be, or what we could do was hope for good results of the end, and if you don’t get it, well, then we did, you say, sorry, better looking altum you don’t know that as a child actually had an easy bake oven, i didn’t have the lincoln logs. My brother had the lincoln logs, i had the easy bake oven dahna they should also be your outcome statement verifiable, and this is all really, i’m i’m breaking it down the way you do in the book, but just flows naturally from the way you’re describing it. We have to be able to verify where we are time versus goal on dh and reassess, say more about verifiability. Verifiability basically means that some third party can look at it without spending a ton of money, because again, and maybe this is that not to take anything away from professional evaluators, but evaluation cost money and professional evaluators in professional valuation services. I mean, these people are very good at what they do, but the point is that hopefully what you’re doing is verifiable in the easier way i mean, is there’s an old saying, you know, chicken soup is good for the soul? Well, it could be, but it’s, hard to tell. You know, what you want to do is you want to stick to things that have some fairly easily discernible evidence that can be seen and that’s what it means, my verifiable it means staying away from outcomes to talkabout, as you said before, well, somebody feels better about themselves. In their place in the universe, well, that’s a little bit nebulous. And so i would recommend that if you’re looking to create a good outcome statement, a good outcome for you program that you stay away from the cosmic, the psychic, the overly emotional and definitely the extraterrestrial. Okay, so first step to create a proper outcome statement is what decide what you want to be different at the end of this program. So you’re definitely looking forward toward gin with the end in mind begins, and you say that the book begin with the engine dart with what do you want to be different about a certain situation or a certain set of conditions as a result of your program, start there. If you can’t define, then maybe should rethink what you’re doing and in determining that you need to be bound in number and time and those miserable those of the descriptions as you working back, which is yes, but the idea is what you want to start with is a change you want to start with being able to define a change. We’ve kind of alluded to this, but the basic basic idea with the changes what’s called the backs measures change in the behavior, attitude, condition, knowledge or status of those you seek to serve. So you start with the change in their behavior, their attitude, that condition and knowledge or the status and it doesn’t have to be a person. It could be a forest that could be it could could be a watershed. The status goes from being threatened to not tear being safe to being protected. But the idea is you start with the change and defining if you can’t define it, then my suggestion is you start to rethink a lot of organizations. Start with the problem. And then the next question is, what do we do? Well, what do we do? That’s that’s. The wrong place to start the place to start is first off. What changes do we want to bring about? Secondly, what resource is will it take to do that? Thirdly, you know what actions or programs will it take to effectuate that it’s? A total reverse of the usual way of approaching most of these issues. That’s. Ah, sort of a summary of of developing your own outcome statement. And there’s, obviously a lot more detail. In the book again, the book is the non-profit outcomes toolbox, we have just about a minute before the break, how do we start to apply and outcomes analysis? You have a lot of tools in the book, but how do we get there? Well, first off an easy thing by the book, but beyond that, there are any number of very, very thoughtful people who have created some of these tools that are out there. The problem is that most non-profits i don’t know about them. Everybody, for example, is heard of the logic model. Well, what they don’t understand what the logic model was originally intended to do was to intended to be a supposed to the way a lot of people are suggesting it be used. Today there are alternatives to this, and the book is one way of finding out about them and it reinventing the wheel is not necessary. These wheels have already being been invented. The question is knowing which ones work for you. And that was the whole concept behind the toolbox approach to the book that perhaps we can talk about after the break. Okay, way are going to take a break. If you’ve not heard of the logic model, then you’re with me. So i’m going to ask robert after the break to just briefly talk about that. And then we’re going to talk about some of tools and lessons you can learn from the for-profit from the corporate sector in outcomes measurement. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio stay with us. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Buy-in oppcoll this is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays, one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting do you want to enhance your company’s web presence with an eye catching and unique website design? Would you like to incorporate professional video marketing mobile marketing into your organization’s marketing campaign? Mission one on one media offers a unique marketing experience that will set you apart from your competitors, magnify your brand exposure and enhance your current marketing effort. Their services include video production and editing, web design, graphic design photography, social media management and now introducing mobile market. Their motto is we do whatever it takes to make our clients happy. Contact them today. Admission one one media dot com told you. If you have big ideas and an average budget to tony martignetti non-profit radio, we dio. I’m jonah helper, nari team in co founders of next-gen charity metoo welcome back to the show. Our last segment. Let’s define the logic model because maybe i know it by a different name, robert. But you may know that what is that? That is actually the name of it. If the logic model is a away that non-profits have had for some years now ah planned it’s one of the tools that they’ve used for planning how to get to the outcomes from the starting point. But the logic model became very well known when kellogg adopted at the kellogg foundation. Same is the cereal people, the telephone, isha and united way of america adopted. And in both of those cases they kind of put the word out amongst their there either case of kellogg, that grantees, and in the case of the united way of america, the local affiliates, that this was one of the earliest outcomes frameworks that you could potentially use not doing under do plug. But in my previous book, outcome frameworks, that was one of the things we talked about, because the idea was there were these various models, and how do they compare one to the other? And what were the pluses and minuses of all of them that had never been done? Before, which is why i wrote that previous book, but the logic model truly was meant as a is a graphic illustration of cause and effect within a program that this input will lead to that which will lead to the third, which will lead to the fourth and hopefully get you two the the the the end point that you that you desire, the problem is it was never actually designed to be a management or tracking tool. And when organizations and there are a lot of people, very thoughtful people who do use it for this personally, i think it’s cumbersome and what you wind up with since the whole design was a flow chart, very often you wind up with all of these various lines at the doubling back on each other. So some of someone i know, okay, so we’re past that now that we’re in the outcomes toolbox, right? And why did you choose the toolbox metaphor? Kinds of the toolbox was very simple. Let’s go back to that curtain, rod, you and i, we’re going to put a human. You don’t go back to my eagle scout. No, no, i’m still sinjin, i’m going to go back to the curtain rod, you’re not going to put up a few minutes ago without the level. Let’s say you’re putting up the the curtain, ron and all the tools you had. We were craftsman. And at one point you needed that level that i mentioned and you say, bob, give me a level. Well, if the level i gave you was a stanley, would you refuse to use it? Because it was a question like all the other tools? Probably not. You would. You would use the tools at hand. Okay. In the non-profit space, most of these frameworks, our proprietary, this one belongs to ran. That one belongs to the rental of ill institute, the third one’s associated with this with this person or this institution. As a result, what traditionally happened was, let us say, a representative of that organization or the consultant came in and they would wind up basically saying to non-profits my model b a, b, c or d it’s the bass o matic of outcome frameworks. It slices it, dices it chops, it walks the dog. It does everything. The problem is none of them do everything. All of them. Do something, all of them do several somethings some of them do some things very well, but none of them do everything well. And so what we want of doing was inadvertently offering them the space eighty pence, eighty percent solutions to one hundred percent problems. It’s telling people, for example, that the logic model was the be all and end all was one such example. My concept is, and the reason is called the toolbox in the book, i do not care about the authorship, the ownership, the providence or anything else about any of these tools. If it works, i want you to use it, and i’m not going to tell you not to use it because you’re not using the other pieces of the same sex that’s the concept truly a toolbox reaching grab what works for you, and if you’re not oriented to its tools, think about it as a kitchen, you know, again, you know, if you have a, you know, one brand of, you know, say, blender and another brand of you’re not going to not use them to the same meal because the different brands you’re going to use, what you need now. You’re in my space because now i mean that’s for my easy bake oven days. Okay, right. The kitchenware. That’s. What if that’s why i went there? I can see that you is resonating with much more comfortable with spatulas than i am. Phillips head screwdriver. First time i used when i had to go to the emergency room that’s because you were trying to scrape a pan with so the book has ah, lot of model of of these tools talks about dahna maybe a dozen or so. Some of the simplest ones are you get what you measure results based accountability, even one from mckinsey and company capacity assessment tool. But maybe not those necessary. But a lot of the tools in the toolbox do emanate from corporate outcomes. Measurements. Some of the some of the latter ones. A lot of, you know, there’s. A lot of what are what? Why is it translatable? I mean, from for-profit tuna for-profit, you know, a lot of times not-for-profits community is worried about things that come from corporations. Yeah. Peter drucker. Except for money. Not a cz investigators, investors, but but now there is that fear. What were some of the less peter drucker made the comment that non-profit should be run more like business, and everyone thought that, you know, he was he was the prostate, and he was ah, heretical and my god, you know, corporations a big, nasty things, and after all we care, you know, we have a non-profit sector. The truth of the matter is that no one is more interested in outcomes in the corporate world. Now they tend to call the court that their outcomes profitability, market share, etcetera. But the idea is they’ve been leading the way literally since, you know henry ford was putting model tease out of on assembly line, there are tools, for example, like six sigma. There are tools that i said heaven saying, sabat against there are tools like six, six, six sigma six sigma. The question is what? The hell’s, a sigma and where the six of them that’s explained in the book it’s basically a measure of quality. All right, six sigma focuses on how many failure rates are there per million opportunities to fail. I mean, you don’t really have to get into that, but the concept is it has some key insight something for example, like t q m t q jargon jail. Oh, ok, you know, take your total quality, man. You know, i didn’t know what i mean, that’s what it cost him, and i’m not going to lock myself in jargon jail. What it means is critical to quality most non-profits when they’re designing a programme, do not ask this question, as the corporate world does with corporal world is launching and launching an effort, one of the first things under six sigma they would do is say, what is the most critical part of this that we need to have? If a non-profit were to adopt that kind of that kind of concept and that kind of analysis, it could go very, very far towards helping them focus on the most important parts of a program, the key things that they absolutely must have. But this is a perspective that is very often for into the non-profit space, but very, very built into the corporate space, particularly using something like six sigma, i see a future masters degree in non-profit outcomes engineering yet it’s perfect, exactly there’ll be exactly well, but when we have maybe a moment so we can talk about something called serve qual, which they’re using pizza hut, if you imagine, think a tool from pizza being used in the non-profit space now that’s that’s the suggestion that we talked about, regrettably, we’re out of moments right of moments. Well, the lesson is don’t be fearful of what comes from the non-profit from from the for-profit sector because these are all important, easily quantified things that corporations are focusing on, like earnings per share in a quarter, right? Exactly. And how do you get there? What do you need to do to get there? The book is the non-profit outcomes toolbox, a complete guide to program effectiveness, performance measurement and results published by wally wiley and sons, you’ll find robert penn is blogged at outcomes, outcomes toolbox, dot com robert, thank you very much for being on the show. A pleasure. Thank you very much for having it was a pleasure and enjoyed immensely. Thank you. Next week, september eleven giving what of the trends been? What can we expect going forward around that? My guest will be christine cronin, president of n y charities dot or ge? You can always keep up with what’s coming. Up on the show, sign up for our insider email alerts on the facebook page there’s a link to sign up and get those weekly alerts while you’re there, click like become a fan of the show, you can listen live or archive you’ve been listening live. You can listen archive on itunes subscribe and listen anytime, of course. 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