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My Guest:
Dennis Miller: Recruiting Your Next CEO
“As a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer.” So starts the book, “A Guide To Recruiting Your Next CEO.” Author Dennis Miller walks us through. (Originally aired 12/22/17)
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Transcript for 467_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20191122.mp3
Happy to be back, tony. [00:02:07.65] spk_3:
Well happen years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you, what is the sea for? In Dennis c miller dot [00:02:16.33] spk_5:
com and [00:02:19.24] spk_0:
Charles my father’s names. So many Dennis mellows and grammar school in high school we put in and I’m very proud to be [00:02:26.45] spk_3:
Charles. All right. You don’t mind if I don’t call you Dennis C. Miller the whole hour, though [00:02:29.68] spk_5:
I just call [00:02:30.56] spk_0:
me dad. You’re like, [00:02:33.46] spk_3:
OK, now, Dennis, we have to be. And it has to be anymore. Denigrating the dentist. Venice. Fine. Now you’re by phone. You’re in. You’re in Los Angeles. Is that right? [00:02:41.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m actually in the Los Angeles area of isn’t That’s a business appear this week. And now we’re spending time my wife and I with our two sons and their families and grandson out here in Los Angeles and heading up to Santa Monica, Santa Monica Pier right after the show. So [00:03:03.90] spk_3:
All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want, take off now, we could just bag the whole thing. You need to go. Public transportation is gonna leave in five minutes or something, or you’re OK. [00:03:08.12] spk_5:
Oh, you’re okay for the [00:03:37.83] spk_3:
hour. Okay, now, remember the last time you were here, you almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. You’re you’re ah. Um, your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You need a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to Los Angeles, And this way you can call him by phone. Okay? You don’t worry about running running to the studio, okay? Okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what I was saying? No salmon. Every little word [00:03:40.59] spk_5:
had a regular. You may have. [00:03:41.29] spk_3:
No, you did. You had a high. You definitely had a heart, a heart because your face was red. All right, Um, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome? [00:04:38.17] spk_0:
Well, think about it that there’s probably over a 1,000,000 more. There’s more than a 1,000,000 non profit around the country and with the number of people that are dissipate to retire over the next five plus years on any research a staggering, sometimes closing 75% the the vast majority of people went into the non public sector, and leadership positions were baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the community. So there’s a lot of retirement going on, and the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next CEO. And on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing. So it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit in. Actually, that’s why I wrote the book [00:04:44.83] spk_3:
OK, 75% turnover in the next 10 years we’re gonna have, [00:04:54.41] spk_0:
I’d probably less. I mean, it’s It’s quite a bit if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, you know, it’s now 2017 and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needing. [00:05:18.54] spk_3:
One of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hire a such consultant. Now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book, you’re biased. But can you weigh the pros and cons for us? [00:05:23.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Listen, um, I’m biased. Certainly if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, I think the book will help them with that. [00:05:30.04] spk_5:
Uh, sure you want [00:06:28.17] spk_0:
to go in alone Is this year you have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s gonna be needed for the board members to not only identify the profile of the next candidate but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved. I lay out those steps in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures, that they’re gonna be pain and most trees probably in the area of someplace between 20 to 35%. All cases, 25 that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet, so you wanna have an expertise. There’s like anything else you need a lawyer of financial account. You’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own. And the other aspect, tony, for people who want to go about on their own, is by just posting sort of ads and social media, whatever. You’re gonna only get two people that are looking for a job and you don’t know either how good they are, how well performing they are if they’re happy a search from is gonna recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What? I have [00:06:46.44] spk_3:
those percentages that you quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is [00:06:52.11] spk_5:
that yes. [00:06:59.72] spk_0:
So someone makes ah a position whether the CEO, our CFO or development unable to save the position was 100,000 [00:07:01.00] spk_5:
dollars. You [00:07:01.95] spk_0:
know, the average three is gonna be $25,000. But this day, five years, it’s $5000 a year, which comes out to about $100 a week or 20 hours of any. And you know, the thing about it’s probably the smartest investments that aboard wouldn’t want to make. [00:07:23.99] spk_5:
Okay, Noah, particularly you get the right portion. Okay? And I [00:07:24.54] spk_3:
guess the main advantage of going in on your own is you’re saving that fee. [00:07:28.54] spk_0:
Well, you saving the feeble you also, you better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna [00:07:33.84] spk_5:
happen. That [00:07:34.43] spk_0:
so that you poisoned cons here. But most most really good organizations will use a search firm for certain keys positions. [00:07:45.03] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before Ah, first break, Dennis. Oh, let’s just identify that this CEO change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so. This could be an opportunity. A great opportunity. [00:08:30.56] spk_0:
What? How you look at him and I’m We’re doing a search right now. When we’ve got the finalists. Been seen by the search committee and beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm and, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from not a crisis to. This is a phenomenal opportunity to not just take it, get a new leader, but to have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while or fairly new. It’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So what if the glass is half full? It’s I look at it is very exciting time when organization most clients feel the same way, [00:09:30.24] spk_3:
all right, and we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this. Right now, it’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. If that kind of C p. A. Could be valuable for you. Your non profit. Then check out wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s do the, uh We got some live listener love. Let’s do it good. We do. And we’ve got Seoul. South Korea s o. I gotta tell you, soul. So, uh, so consistent. Such loyal listeners in Seoul, South Korea On your HASA an io io comes a ham nida, which does not [00:09:30.77] spk_4:
mean live. Listen, love out to you, but I’m [00:10:47.14] spk_3:
grateful Soul always with us. Thank you. Um, Victoria that they can. Krista In Brazil, there will be a brain a star this on da lively love Love out to, uh, Brazil. Thank you for being with us. Ashburn, Virginia Tampa, Florida, New York, New York and, uh oh, another South Korea Chung Wan The same greeting goes to Chung Wan annual Hasso come So ham Nida. Glad you’re with us. I love it and they’ll be more, but I felt like doing the live love earlier today. And the podcast Pleasantries. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for being a podcast listener of non profit radio. I’m glad that we fit into your podcast listening wherever it is and whenever it is pleasantries to the podcast listeners, Let’s go back to recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book recruiting, Ah, guide to recruiting your next CEO and Dennis C. Miller. So let’s talk about that. That possibility for assessment you Ah, you say that you might, uh, considered doing strategic planning, I guess, if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next CEO [00:12:12.61] spk_0:
Yeah, well, the you know the question always is You know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do you hire a CEO or do you hire or chief development officer before you have a plan and and, uh, kind of it’s up. It’s up to decline the organization, but give me a couple examples whites sort of better to at least an idea of where you want to go on what you want to achieve. So let’s say you wanted to. You go out and hire a CEO, hoping that they will build your plan and let some party. A plan is to be more involved in philanthropy. More involved in the cultivating. So seeing donors, what if that seal he just hired doesn’t have that experience? Well, now you’re stuck. So what if your need is to grow your board and the new CEO? Yes. Sorry doesn’t have that. So one of the things that I recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan. But certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision. Where you headed. Will you want ahead? What? Some of the big strategic goals you have? Um, what things that you need to get done. And then, obviously it’s much easier than to identify the the characteristics of the qualities and experience of the CEO. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for you organization. So that’s why it’s important to take a look at kind of way. You want to go before [00:12:21.57] spk_3:
you say that If you’re not gonna do a full full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are. [00:12:45.52] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think there are some people that don’t do a full blown strategic plan. I think that you could do that, but I think more importantly, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life cycle as an organization and as a board. Um And then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of, Well, you’re at that helps us or dramatically beginning the on boarding closet with your next CEO. So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind. So I do think that you wanna have and I point this out in the book. You want to have a sense of your strategic vision where you’re heading and pick up some of the key goals were having Yes. So when you’re interviewing came that you want to make sure their line with those gold here and it makes much smoother transition, [00:13:24.42] spk_3:
some of the goals you lay out besides mission envision our fundraising and development. You know what you wanna do around that? You’re bored CEO relationship? Your programs and service is andi Course. You know, the book explains what goes into detail each of those, but, um, [00:13:31.78] spk_5:
I had a couple of [00:13:45.44] spk_0:
it. Certainly, you know, you walk additional capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have, Ah, plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you? Border. You building the right board? Are you branding your organization and communicating that the impact you’re having? It’s important things today, So there’s a lot of, ah, strategic goals that one should be having with this pauses. And, uh, you want to get a sort of buying from your board and have the new CEO committed help implement this employee. [00:14:33.50] spk_3:
And okay, so this new CEO is gonna have need to have some skills, and you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing CEO are. We want to be thinking beyond that. I mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is gonna do is help you look forward, not current. You know you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current CEO’s talents, but you want to build on those for the for the future, and you identify a whole bunch of potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit relationship builder, et cetera. But you wanna be going beyond the current. [00:15:37.66] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s easy question when you have someone you know, Uh, you know, what kind of ah kind of deal are you looking for? And that the person who’s been in the job for the past 10 50 years for name is Surely people would be like someone like Charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that your previous CEO had may be silly, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that I have in the book in another books. In my work, I D’oh tony, is the idea of today’s competencies were, uh, executive leadership, non public sector, dramatically different than they were 5 10 years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past, you know, aboard, we’re looking for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relationship in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out and get a grant. Though their skills are still important. Today they look for more than just kills but compensation traits such as they want a visionary thinkers today, when the House, the CEO or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for CEOs to create their own vision [00:15:55.82] spk_5:
cream organization. [00:16:34.49] spk_0:
I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of creative vision number two. Certainly people want the idea of relationship. Will the building relationships outside inside the organization, someone who’s a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is important, ships that you need not just managed and when you got So is a whole series of conferences that identify in the book, including, you know, being a collaborative non about how big of a budget you have in control. It’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass is out there for CEOs and executives, but I use the term some of the CEO jacket director do all the time. [00:17:04.11] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s fair. That’s fair Fares. Similarities. Yeah, of course. Um, I did have a guest years ago. Uh, Eugene Fram he was a professor at I think he was a university of Rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the CEO. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and CEO. That chief executive makes it less likely doesn’t make no guarantee. But let’s like that. Board members will get involved in the nitty gritty, the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging a CEO versus an executive director. I did you give any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one over the other [00:17:40.10] spk_0:
radio. You know, tony, the point you’re raises a really good one, and I do have a pilot in the book of my work. But I do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer, um, the more contemporary title is board, ship or support president. What you kind of the past is, um, it may just be words, but I think they have a lot of [00:17:42.99] spk_5:
connotations. They do find themselves. [00:17:53.44] spk_0:
I’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top lay personal pipe a person should be the president CEO, and I think that was profit last year right there. When you’re out there with donors. So it’s more than just an executive director, um, overseeing the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen. I do. I do before the word CEO [00:18:07.92] spk_3:
on and also executive director. I mean, that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non profit term [00:18:13.17] spk_5:
way. Want to think that [00:18:15.38] spk_3:
running like businesses run this thing like a business happens to be a nonprofit corporation? [00:18:19.26] spk_5:
But don’t tell [00:18:22.79] spk_0:
mother interviews with you. It’s came up the term, you know, non properties. You tax [00:18:26.85] spk_5:
that business [00:18:29.26] spk_0:
plans. I think it’s important that today’s title be CEO. I just really think that’s important Title that have [00:18:38.81] spk_3:
Let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing. [00:20:03.91] spk_0:
Well, clearly, I think the this you know that in terms of size of the dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on this? It’s absolutely who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experience with search, maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good. That’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of 12 to 15 people, you may want a search committee of maybe five, maybe seven maximum. But I’ve seen larger or smaller, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two be tremendous amount of time commitment. So the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be an involvement here in some time. And then obviously the key part of that will be who will be your share of the search committee. In some cases, it’s a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, lot of people ask me all the time would it be okay tohave the form of a former board chair, a strip search committee? And I would say, Maybe I would say, maybe on Lee, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for [00:20:09.73] spk_5:
the future, not so much because [00:20:10.19] spk_0:
they won’t know exactly what they’re looking for. [00:20:12.06] spk_5:
You all right? [00:20:21.88] spk_0:
This is committee has got to be a forward, approaching organization, afford poaching committee. I think that’s kind of that’s something that I would be looking for a nose of membership. [00:20:25.04] spk_3:
What about an employee putting one on one employee on the committee? [00:20:28.94] spk_0:
I don’t think that’s a good idea. Actually, I think it’s a bad [00:20:32.91] spk_5:
idea. [00:20:33.45] spk_0:
Come out Whiter Bay and say not give example. [00:20:36.04] spk_5:
Okay, [00:21:21.00] spk_0:
Uh, I’ve had people wondering to put the, you know, you know, the current CEO on the search committee, and I The answer is no. Then Walvis of the current CEO, Timmy, and help in the search committee and the consultant, or either inside or outside of what a search committee helped develop aspects of the position profit. What will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next CEO? But the board hires and fires a CEO. It’s also very uncomfortable for a current CEO to be on the search committee. I had a case where, um, it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that I helped with succession planning in. They had an internal candidate for the position, and when the search committee as this person, what changes would you make? She’s very awkward to be talking about the changes you want to make with [00:21:29.27] spk_5:
us. Of course. Right [00:21:43.45] spk_0:
eye. But now there’s times when you get there, some people that have their VP of HR on the search committee of the knee that lays on. But remember, people, it’s not a good idea. Have staff. It’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his board Members of Donald. [00:21:49.42] spk_3:
Okay, predominately. And then you said, maybe a volunteer, [00:21:53.09] spk_0:
if you need expertise. I mean, if you know, if you’re going to not have a search committee and may Sometimes people can hire a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But I think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that’s happened things, so [00:22:11.40] spk_5:
you could [00:22:11.84] spk_0:
build it up. Great. [00:22:15.91] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is gonna be maintained, right? [00:22:41.07] spk_0:
You want a crucial because I make it clear to all my such amazing you could be you could be sued for. Ah, um we could be potentially have a liability for exposing that there is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way, you know donating. Is it been interviewing for me and and before you know it, Tony’s employer finds out, you know, feels like this is loyal to the prom, so you have to protect confidential. It’s something that I have to establish the trust of my chance coming in. They’re out. They’re they’re adamant, and it’s just it goes with the same goes with the business. I have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a [00:23:07.71] spk_3:
job. And this goes partly to, ah, the time commitment. You know, if if there isn’t a ah ah, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is gonna have to be after hours people are gonna be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six PM [00:24:12.45] spk_0:
Yeah, I had, you know, in our business is growing tremendously. What’s what’s going on. But you know, when people you know, maybe I’ll do it myself if you can. It’s up to you, but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what you want, but the outreach to potential candidates. Very time consuming. If you’re going to delegate that members of a church Dominion war So you know professionals are working or even retired. It’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people. It’s a lot of time. Of all the narrowing candidates down and doing the reference checking, it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in the process, not just putting in and out there and then, you know, interviewing kids. It’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity. That’s really important, [00:24:17.63] spk_3:
which is when I was just gonna point out that you say something that caught my eye was very, very interesting. I hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation to our role Thio be selling the applicants on the organization Not [00:24:30.88] spk_5:
just to be not just to be a neutral a [00:24:33.02] spk_3:
neutral committee, but be advocates for the organ. [00:24:52.80] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, the cannon is gonna come in, they’re gonna come in prepared, and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, Jeez, I thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best thing since sliced bread? Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need the candidate’s gonna besides what the search consultant is gonna be telling them about the organization of recruiting for as a search committee, a CZ members that you want to be portraying a very positive image. You want to be sort of extending your hand. You want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome in warm, even if you’re not gonna be selected them. And you noted on the process you want to believe with a very positive for Donna. That’s a major all the search committee as it is. [00:25:43.32] spk_3:
All right? Yeah. Interesting. Let’s move, Thio, Resume screening. You got. You got a ton of tips you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of. But you’ve got You’ve got a lot of tips to share. Share a couple of resume screen tips Now, we’re at that stage that these things are coming in. Resume resumes a lot of resumes coming out share, share a couple of resumes, screening tips, [00:26:33.79] spk_0:
a couple things one of things you want to look for is Clary right off the bat asses. Clary. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get a hold of you? You don’t always have to have your home address these days, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think I look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where, where’s your career bed and a couple of tips you look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly. That’s a that’s a signal potential red flag, red flag were bad thing, but it should be there. The other thing that those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences, but you never get intensive where they perform that. So two things on a resume, both for people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for a position or responding to a search from is clarity is the resume clear of what I’ve accomplished is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have. And I think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that it really [00:26:51.37] spk_3:
yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise Children [00:27:00.22] spk_5:
absolutely. Was a caregiver was given for power [00:27:11.59] spk_0:
that was concerned about a gap. And I said, Just tell him you have a PhD in parenthood. I mean, should be proud to be a parent way. Don’t have parents. We don’t keep that one. So I think it’s totally appropriate. But be honest with what you don’t want to do is start to cover things up here, Um, and so the, you know, present yourself in a positive tone. But certainly be honest if you took a couple of years out or time out to raise Children and be proud of it. And you did but these skills and bring back the table, I’m educated Workforce. [00:27:30.47] spk_5:
I think [00:27:31.17] spk_0:
I’m playing with that. [00:27:34.97] spk_3:
Let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off? When you see people with email addresses that are Hotmail or a ol? Does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology [00:27:58.20] spk_0:
now. I don’t know. Not any. Tell you why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business email and the personal email. And so they don’t want ah, search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into their professional at work email [00:27:59.17] spk_5:
like, Yeah, I get that. [00:28:04.63] spk_0:
I’m okay with the Gmail accounts. It’s when I see you know Dennis at, you know, big love dot com. I [00:28:11.83] spk_5:
have Is that you? I’m gonna try that one. Yeah. Okay, [00:28:15.05] spk_3:
but wait. Yeah, And then when did the e mails that are unprofessional? Like baby cakes, you know, But [00:28:25.47] spk_5:
I don’t want no baby cakes. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right, [00:28:27.77] spk_0:
I think it’s a potato to protect you. You know, your privacy from work. I think that’s fun. [00:28:47.61] spk_3:
All right, but let me ask you. But but my point was, if it’s an added, you know, sort of added date domain, like a o. L or Hotmail or yeah, you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology? Now, [00:28:51.94] spk_0:
if you know, if you haven’t out of the email address, and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address, um, and at that, eh? Oh, well, I mean, I’m flying with that. [00:29:05.98] spk_5:
I’m [00:29:06.37] spk_0:
playing with that. [00:31:31.72] spk_3:
All right? Long is not baby cakes today. Oh, well, all right, way Need to take a break, wegner. No. Cougar Mountain Cuckoo Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. What that means for you is that it’s got what you need. Like fund accounting, fraud prevention, grant and donor management. Custom reporting the awesome customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page, which you will always find at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take to last chance. This is the last call for innovators with doing the innovators. Siri’s in early 2020. Got a bunch of people I could use a couple more if you or someone you know, our, um tackling a problem or just approaching whatever challenges day to day issues in a different way. Then you think your ah, your colleagues elsewhere are and you’re having some success with it. Then I’d like to talk to you because you might be right for our innovators. Siris, Are you Are you innovating? Whether it’s any the fundraising topics which are myriad or its board relationships or could be bored recruiting CEO recruiting like we’re talking about today, whatever it is. Program management. Um, if you’re doing something innovative, tell me about it. Let me know you got You’ve had some success at it and let’s talk. Let’s see if there’s a fit for our innovators. Siri’s. You can get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com or used the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. That is tony Stick to. Shall we continue with Dennis Miller and recruiting your CEO? I say we shall. Dennis Miller’s with us. You know him? We’re talking about his book, A guide to recruiting your next CEO. You know, we can’t We can’t cover the whole book, so just get the thing. For goodness sake. You know it’s a dentist. See miller dot com. That’s where you’ll find dentists in this book. Just get the damn thing. It’s just that I don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right, anyway, Dennis, let’s continue our joint through Um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through Lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when I don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Um, now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things were looking for. They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability. [00:33:40.69] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean the entity process. Once we screen people intense of un resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone in the process, and we can get a better sense of where they are. As a potential candidate, we may explain a final car weather at one. A salary package, so without can’t be wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple of two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural fit? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on 18 builders or the You know, are they collaborators of the good communicators? And then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results. And I think those two things is what kinda, you know, separates the people who get to positions of those that don’t hear. I. We advised. Certainly the search committee on you know the question should be focused on Limited tony, too. You know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal with things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game and committal results. Those are two things that are a crucial now, one of things that you may ask me. I just want answers ahead of time is we have and your listeners could get if they contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non profit search dot com, we provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. I would have told a score of 50 and whether it’s on leadership, communications street, strategic planning board relationships, etcetera. So when people actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got 48 people supposedly going in the search committee members can evaluate for people and where people come out. Usually it’s good to have with them. [00:33:52.62] spk_3:
You have a lot of resource is at the non profit search dot com. So, uh, you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring Matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s get into some details here now. Is the whole committee meeting with every, um, every candidate? Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then I don’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets air gonna judge people differently. [00:34:35.03] spk_0:
Yeah, well, here’s what we do. Um And, um, the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates. Now, in a case we just have here because it’s got multiple locations, there are actually eight people on a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which twice, but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meet so many candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee he’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of every every candidate to be seen by every person [00:34:54.42] spk_3:
you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit, you know? You don’t want to be asking Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions. [00:35:35.66] spk_0:
Yeah, you hear? You don’t want to say, You know, uh, you want you want engage him in conversation and they want engage you in conversation too. And so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current position? On your most recent position? What was the your biggest achievement? Uh, he has an issue for us. How would you deal with it? Stay away from the yes or no questions. And we have, You know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here. No question to be asking, but it’s not open it. Not not yes or no Open ended question. Engagement of conversation is the best. [00:35:43.20] spk_3:
Okay, uh, let’s say we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s our next step in the committee? [00:36:55.22] spk_0:
What will you want to do is you wanna have everybody son of score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring so you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is I have I have a conversation with this share of the search committee, and then, uh, I will then meet with the search committee, or one of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee, dependable of the searches and what it’s for. And then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates. There’s just one person they like and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s two final plans. They’re not sure. So there’s a process here. The pluses here is obviously to let the other candidates know that they did well and they thank you before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience that’s Maur meets the needs of my client. We hope to see him again. The future and then focus in on having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making making a final offer on an employment contract. Employment agreement [00:37:14.41] spk_3:
right now in this scoring, Obviously, some were going to score highest in High Esten higher than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, uh, you know, even the highest scoring one or two just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like I said, every in a group of five. Somebody’s going to score the highest. But even that highest one, they just don’t feel right, you know? How do we way feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process [00:37:36.37] spk_5:
Well expressed. Happened, [00:39:20.56] spk_0:
uh, you know, only once in my recent experience where, um, in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and you know, as you know, the millions of millions of people that serve on non proper boards throughout this country and in other countries. In Canada, you know, our bright, committed people, they gotta see it. You gotta feel for, you know, who you think would fit in here. So usually you know the scores will help you because it gives you a feedback. But usually you get a kind of feeling who would be the best person for that If there’s a situation, Um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates, I absolutely would highly recommend that you go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. We started with believing out of pool of 18 candidates, uh, knit, knit up, down with it down to 11. That was down to five. And five people came in. And so the entire team and that team in there identified, you know, two people and, uh, lo and behold, some discussion and some some time issues, and then people not sure what decision to make. And it was some inexperience on the team making decision, and they kind of planted and they just so I’m not sure I’m ready to pull the trigger. So we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again and usually don’t get the great candidates again. And we did, and it worked out. So if for some reason you don’t feel it, I dont just say, Well, because there’s a high score because you’re gonna live with this person quite awhile. Usually does not happen. Tony. [00:39:24.64] spk_5:
You, um [00:39:34.96] spk_0:
you know the search for doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate. But if it’s amazing, you feel that, you know, I just don’t feel it. So this person is going to fit in here that don’t just pick someone because of scored. The scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate? [00:39:41.30] spk_3:
Is this the stage where we should be calling references? Now we’ve We’ve narrowed it down to our top two or [00:39:45.51] spk_5:
so. [00:40:20.91] spk_0:
So what will a CZ We get? The final can’t wait, Do ask for reference, but here’s what we do. We don’t ask them. They tell us who they’re going to use this reference. We are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking. For example, in a CEO case, we know they can’t talk about the company we’d liketo have been talked. We’d like to talk to someone who is a board member, maybe a board member. Another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them. So, uh, we don’t always talkto the references. I had a time because if you’ve got four final candidates, we it’s not about our time. It’s that we if you’re not going to be chosen, why go through the hassle of asking people and speaking to the reference But with your Jarious final candidate, we absolutely do a thorough construct. And I have a little bit of a funny story that you’re Listen, [00:40:45.19] spk_5:
um, you [00:41:15.73] spk_0:
may enjoy it just kind of quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when I did my first start believing not 30 years ago, and I was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people, and it was, ah, man, a woman. And remember, the man had sort of Maur experience, But the young woman had seemed like much more potential anyway, for some reason, that the man had given me a list of 10 references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me 10 references, and I call it the 46 References. This man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru. [00:41:22.76] spk_5:
But the time I got the [00:41:23.74] spk_0:
78 I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time I got denying, 10 people were asking me, you know, why did you What did this guy even give me a reference? [00:41:36.38] spk_5:
The moral stories you want to keep, [00:42:12.63] spk_0:
you know, kind of dig in here, and it’s certainly you have a light as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we d’oh and same time protecting a confidential alley. But certainly we need to do a thorough research on them. And then, in addition to references, we obviously do a check on, um, educational credentials. And then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not do regarding the one pursue feeling criminal background check, will and credit credit risk of credit reports. [00:42:58.13] spk_3:
It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of was 30 years ago. We didn’t have words we have. We have word. We’re gonna be using that word perfect. Where you had to write down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use, like, the last four. We’re We’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we gotta take a break. I missed our last break. You ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you to do that. They themselves are former journalists. They specialize [00:43:04.45] spk_4:
in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a [00:43:45.38] spk_3:
turn hyphen to dot ceo. Let’s add a little more live love. We got someone jumped in from New York, New York. Welcome. Welcome. New New York New York listener Also. Bangkok, Thailand. I’ve been there and that’s a beautiful city. Beautiful, rich history and, uh, Tijuana, Mexico. Wegner Star Days, Tijuana. Let’s go back. We’ve got butt loads. More time, as we always do for recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book, a guy to recruiting your next CEO. Let’s continue our joint. Ah, Ajanta Dennis. Okay, so we’ve checked references, references, and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours And what? They’re meeting some of the staff now, too. And maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our service is, [00:44:01.29] spk_0:
uh, no, what? We worked a [00:44:02.76] spk_5:
man that don’t do that made staff [00:44:05.36] spk_0:
until they are having a pleasant [00:44:08.26] spk_5:
way. [00:44:29.60] spk_0:
In actuality, you don’t You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a CEO level. Uh, they have to pick the CEO. If it’s another level. Certainly, if it’s a chief operating officer of chief financial officer, it’s probably appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them, then find out who’s a better fit culture, that line. [00:44:32.94] spk_5:
But [00:44:34.11] spk_0:
on a CEO, though, you won’t make it clear that the board is making the decision and I would not have staff involved on interviewing until mating accepted. [00:44:45.18] spk_3:
So who are they meeting then? In this this day when they’re going to visit the visit? The site. [00:44:50.16] spk_0:
While so many have gone to the search committee, Obviously, there’s no one else to me except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the CEO [00:44:58.03] spk_5:
way, our home, [00:46:29.73] spk_0:
that once a search committee has made a decision, um, before an offer was made, it’s, uh, what the search committee wants to Dio doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wanna search? Committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board, and in many cases, and I will advise us is have that final CEO Warren. The case where there’s too close candidates committed. Meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one, that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants. Don’t waste the time of having to to feel you have to bring a 2nd 1 and you given someone hope when when they’re not probably gonna be selected But I have an interesting story, tony, that you listen, May 1. Here. Uh, about a year ago, we did a search for a CEO, and the search committee had him ranked. Wanted to have this. Ah, woman ranked one and a guy number two. And, um, I had agreed with that recommendation. Thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation. Ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate. And some things came up in discussions. And I think at the end of day, they made the right decision. So don’t forget, the board has the final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee is here to recommend candidates. But do not hire a CEO from a search committee on Lee. They must meet the entire board. [00:46:35.38] spk_3:
Have you ever heard of co CEOs? [00:47:32.68] spk_0:
Yeah, I have. And I I found it never. Well, a couple times, it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions so both people take on the role of co CEO. 1 may have responsibility for maybe a certain geography one than another. Ah, one’s focus more on one thing I before not the have it. I think, uh, co CEOs is like co board chairs. Um, it doesn’t make a feeling that anybody is really in charge. Um, I’m working with an organization right now out in California because we do certainly national searches as well as in Canada. And you know, there’s a transition going on and it’s the heart organization. It’s important to know who’s in charge. So if it has to happen and you’re particularly with a merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally, it sooner than later, it’s only a position. You can’t have a Coast CEO. It doesn’t work. I’ve seen co chief development offices, and it doesn’t work either. I mean, I think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion. [00:48:18.83] spk_3:
Okay, way explored co CEOs with Jean Takagi. So if anyone wants Thio, get more on that. That was the May 19th 2017 show with Gene. Um, Okay. Um all right, we, uh it’s time to negotiate an offer we were, uh we’ve selected our top one. Um, you like guards? Guidestar. They have? I don’t know if you mentioned I know them. Guide star has a good salary guide. Comes out every year. S Oh, it’s it’s current. Um, but do you have other studies that you like? [00:48:21.17] spk_0:
Yeah, a couple of things here. We have a good sense of what the marketplaces like. Different geography, maybe [00:48:26.80] spk_5:
waken [00:48:46.47] spk_0:
use guide star and I. I like your condition well, but here’s the palm and it’s not Guide says bomb. Is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest compensated employees? It’s probably two years old. Um, even if it says 2016 and you’re in 17 it may have been, you know, we were involved in June of 2015 so I don’t rely upon that Nestle as a guide for [00:48:53.31] spk_5:
making offer. I [00:49:23.71] spk_0:
know what the organization, um, is looking to pay. I know what What? The Sally is people that are looking, and then we I advise because I’m involved in every single. So I advise my client is what I think it’s gonna take to get the person I’ve seen clients do salary surveys using Geiser and other things that commit some other compensations. Raise. There’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that. You don’t know what the performance of the organization has been. You don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what how well they’ve done with fund raising. [00:49:30.20] spk_5:
You [00:49:39.63] spk_0:
know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So one of the advantages of doing what? What the rate is to attract some money, and that’s kind of what we do. [00:49:43.61] spk_3:
Okay, let’s spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you just gotta buy the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book. But I wanna spend last couple minutes just about two minutes or so on on on boarding. This is a board responsive board responsibility. [00:50:09.19] spk_0:
Well, that’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to CEOs, I mean, half of them have never been on border. So what? What do you mean by sort of on board a candidate? Well, are on boarding. I’m boarding. If you don’t get on board, you get hired, and then you start, and then you go, Jeez, I don’t know. This is the way. Itwas [00:50:15.06] spk_3:
you know, you’re not supported in your new digital, John. So [00:50:25.65] spk_0:
I know what you on boarding refers to. The idea of preparing a CEO to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components [00:50:26.92] spk_5:
of the new [00:51:14.06] spk_0:
role and or to the board here really, very important that be some type of on boarding process. So, as an example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about with on boarding. Here is, um let’s be clear. So both the board and the CEO and again, you could say the same thing about a CEO or CFO. What? She’s development officer. Same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly, that’s gonna come up. Don’t interview puzzle, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair I want to communicate to the CEO? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other Friday? Did they want e mails or not e mails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the CEO to accomplish in the 1st 30 days or 60 days, or maybe 180 [00:51:21.37] spk_5:
days. [00:51:27.63] spk_0:
What the cultural issues or financial issues that the organization is facing. What senior members of the team may have some performances. The watch out for who were the key stakeholders outside the organization, like donors of volunteers that you want the seal to make sure that building wishes perhaps, maybe with a local Congress person or a member of the Senate Assembly here. [00:51:46.27] spk_3:
Dennis Dennis. We gotta leave it there. There’s too much. [00:51:49.16] spk_5:
All right. Thank [00:52:08.43] spk_3:
you so much, Dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guy to recruiting your next CEO. You’ll find it at Dennis c. Miller dot com, and you’ll find him at Dennis C. Miller next week. We don’t have any show, so I’m wishing you happy. Turkey Day. Help you enjoy your Thanksgiving. I hope it’s time away from work, including email and text. [00:52:19.61] spk_4:
If texting is part of your work, [00:53:03.64] spk_3:
um, and time with family, family and maybe even dear friends. I hope you enjoy your Thanksgiving. We’ll be back on December 6th with Vivian Hexter on Big Impact. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers [00:53:44.00] spk_2:
Clad Meyerhoff. Sam Leave, which is the lying producer thief shows social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein Knew every next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% will actually be with me in two weeks for big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.
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[00:01:52.10] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with extra fee if you turn to my stomach with the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your next CEO as a board member of a nonprofit organization, the most important responsibility you are likely to assume will be to hire your chief executive officer. End quote. So starts the book. A Guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO. Author Dennis Miller walks us through that originally aired on December 22nd 2017 on tony Stake to Last Call for Innovators were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Let’s get started with recruiting your next CEO. I’m glad that I can welcome Dennis Miller back then A C. Miller. He’s a strategic leadership coach and executive search consultant with more than 35 years experience working with non profit board leadership and chief executives across the country. He’s managing director of the nonprofit Search Group, an executive recruiting firm. His latest book, His Fifth, is a guide to Recruiting Your Next CEO, the Executive Search Handbook for non profit Boards. You’ll find Dennis and his book at Dennis c. Miller dot com. He’s at Dennis C. Miller, and I’m very glad that his book brings him back to non profit radio. Welcome back, Dennis C. Miller.
Happy to be back, tony. [00:02:07.65] spk_3:
Well happen years coming up. Yes, stopping here. That’s appropriate. I’m sorry. Thank you. And to you, what is the sea for? In Dennis c miller dot [00:02:16.33] spk_5:
com and [00:02:19.24] spk_0:
Charles my father’s names. So many Dennis mellows and grammar school in high school we put in and I’m very proud to be [00:02:26.45] spk_3:
Charles. All right. You don’t mind if I don’t call you Dennis C. Miller the whole hour, though [00:02:29.68] spk_5:
I just call [00:02:30.56] spk_0:
me dad. You’re like, [00:02:33.46] spk_3:
OK, now, Dennis, we have to be. And it has to be anymore. Denigrating the dentist. Venice. Fine. Now you’re by phone. You’re in. You’re in Los Angeles. Is that right? [00:02:41.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m actually in the Los Angeles area of isn’t That’s a business appear this week. And now we’re spending time my wife and I with our two sons and their families and grandson out here in Los Angeles and heading up to Santa Monica, Santa Monica Pier right after the show. So [00:03:03.90] spk_3:
All right, well, we won’t hold you up. In fact, if you want, take off now, we could just bag the whole thing. You need to go. Public transportation is gonna leave in five minutes or something, or you’re OK. [00:03:08.12] spk_5:
Oh, you’re okay for the [00:03:37.83] spk_3:
hour. Okay, now, remember the last time you were here, you almost had a heart attack. You were running down the street. You were late. You’re you’re ah. Um, your cheeks were rosy. Your heavy breathing. You need a few minutes to take deep breaths. So now you’ve after to go to Los Angeles, And this way you can call him by phone. Okay? You don’t worry about running running to the studio, okay? Okay. You didn’t have a heart attack. You know what I was saying? No salmon. Every little word [00:03:40.59] spk_5:
had a regular. You may have. [00:03:41.29] spk_3:
No, you did. You had a high. You definitely had a heart, a heart because your face was red. All right, Um, why do we need this book? Why are you causing trouble with this tome? [00:04:38.17] spk_0:
Well, think about it that there’s probably over a 1,000,000 more. There’s more than a 1,000,000 non profit around the country and with the number of people that are dissipate to retire over the next five plus years on any research a staggering, sometimes closing 75% the the vast majority of people went into the non public sector, and leadership positions were baby boomers from the sixties and seventies went to sort of the cultural change and wanted to commit themselves to having a big impact in the community. So there’s a lot of retirement going on, and the biggest responsibility that a member of the board can have is selecting the next CEO. And on top of that, when you think about the challenges of the environment in the non public sector, the leadership conferences have been dramatically changing. So it’s an important time for board members to understand what is needed to recruit in. Actually, that’s why I wrote the book [00:04:44.83] spk_3:
OK, 75% turnover in the next 10 years we’re gonna have, [00:04:54.41] spk_0:
I’d probably less. I mean, it’s It’s quite a bit if you think about people that grew up in the sixties and seventies, you know, it’s now 2017 and people in their sixties and thinking about stepping down another part of life and a lot of recruitment gonna be needing. [00:05:18.54] spk_3:
One of the opening questions is whether we should go this recruitment alone or hire a such consultant. Now you’re you’re biased. You say that in the book, you’re biased. But can you weigh the pros and cons for us? [00:05:23.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Listen, um, I’m biased. Certainly if someone if someone wants to go about it a lot, I think the book will help them with that. [00:05:30.04] spk_5:
Uh, sure you want [00:06:28.17] spk_0:
to go in alone Is this year you have people on the board or staff with the expertise and recruiting. Do you have the time commitment that’s gonna be needed for the board members to not only identify the profile of the next candidate but spending the time and now is reaching out and screening candidates. So there’s a lot of work involved. I lay out those steps in the search committee. Klaus is here. I think that what a lot of people doing today is realizing that, you know, whatever the figures, that they’re gonna be pain and most trees probably in the area of someplace between 20 to 35%. All cases, 25 that the advertiser over five years and sometimes really not that high. And yet, so you wanna have an expertise. There’s like anything else you need a lawyer of financial account. You’d be hiring someone. It’s a challenging thing to go about on your own. And the other aspect, tony, for people who want to go about on their own, is by just posting sort of ads and social media, whatever. You’re gonna only get two people that are looking for a job and you don’t know either how good they are, how well performing they are if they’re happy a search from is gonna recruit people that are not looking for that job. And that’s part of what you want. What? I have [00:06:46.44] spk_3:
those percentages that you quoted that’s of the first year cash compensation. Is [00:06:52.11] spk_5:
that yes. [00:06:59.72] spk_0:
So someone makes ah a position whether the CEO, our CFO or development unable to save the position was 100,000 [00:07:01.00] spk_5:
dollars. You [00:07:01.95] spk_0:
know, the average three is gonna be $25,000. But this day, five years, it’s $5000 a year, which comes out to about $100 a week or 20 hours of any. And you know, the thing about it’s probably the smartest investments that aboard wouldn’t want to make. [00:07:23.99] spk_5:
Okay, Noah, particularly you get the right portion. Okay? And I [00:07:24.54] spk_3:
guess the main advantage of going in on your own is you’re saving that fee. [00:07:28.54] spk_0:
Well, you saving the feeble you also, you better be prepared for the time that your board is gonna [00:07:33.84] spk_5:
happen. That [00:07:34.43] spk_0:
so that you poisoned cons here. But most most really good organizations will use a search firm for certain keys positions. [00:07:45.03] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, let’s say we just have about a minute before Ah, first break, Dennis. Oh, let’s just identify that this CEO change is not something necessarily to be feared. I mean, just in a minute or so. This could be an opportunity. A great opportunity. [00:08:30.56] spk_0:
What? How you look at him and I’m We’re doing a search right now. When we’ve got the finalists. Been seen by the search committee and beginning this is that this is the first time this organization has used a search firm and, you know, they admitted they made some mistakes in the past. But you’ve got to go from not a crisis to. This is a phenomenal opportunity to not just take it, get a new leader, but to have an assessment of your organization and have some advice and give me and people get on the board. And we’ve been here for quite a while or fairly new. It’s a exciting time to take a first look atyou organization. So what if the glass is half full? It’s I look at it is very exciting time when organization most clients feel the same way, [00:09:30.24] spk_3:
all right, and we’re gonna talk about that. That assessment right after this. Right now, it’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. If that kind of C p. A. Could be valuable for you. Your non profit. Then check out wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s do the, uh We got some live listener love. Let’s do it good. We do. And we’ve got Seoul. South Korea s o. I gotta tell you, soul. So, uh, so consistent. Such loyal listeners in Seoul, South Korea On your HASA an io io comes a ham nida, which does not [00:09:30.77] spk_4:
mean live. Listen, love out to you, but I’m [00:10:47.14] spk_3:
grateful Soul always with us. Thank you. Um, Victoria that they can. Krista In Brazil, there will be a brain a star this on da lively love Love out to, uh, Brazil. Thank you for being with us. Ashburn, Virginia Tampa, Florida, New York, New York and, uh oh, another South Korea Chung Wan The same greeting goes to Chung Wan annual Hasso come So ham Nida. Glad you’re with us. I love it and they’ll be more, but I felt like doing the live love earlier today. And the podcast Pleasantries. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for being a podcast listener of non profit radio. I’m glad that we fit into your podcast listening wherever it is and whenever it is pleasantries to the podcast listeners, Let’s go back to recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book recruiting, Ah, guide to recruiting your next CEO and Dennis C. Miller. So let’s talk about that. That possibility for assessment you Ah, you say that you might, uh, considered doing strategic planning, I guess, if you have time before getting into the recruiting process for the next CEO [00:12:12.61] spk_0:
Yeah, well, the you know the question always is You know what comes first, right? Chicken or the egg? Tony, do you hire a CEO or do you hire or chief development officer before you have a plan and and, uh, kind of it’s up. It’s up to decline the organization, but give me a couple examples whites sort of better to at least an idea of where you want to go on what you want to achieve. So let’s say you wanted to. You go out and hire a CEO, hoping that they will build your plan and let some party. A plan is to be more involved in philanthropy. More involved in the cultivating. So seeing donors, what if that seal he just hired doesn’t have that experience? Well, now you’re stuck. So what if your need is to grow your board and the new CEO? Yes. Sorry doesn’t have that. So one of the things that I recommend the clients is that’s not necessarily happen to have a full blown strategic plan. But certainly it’s a good idea to have a real sense of your strategic vision. Where you headed. Will you want ahead? What? Some of the big strategic goals you have? Um, what things that you need to get done. And then, obviously it’s much easier than to identify the the characteristics of the qualities and experience of the CEO. So you bring someone on board who is the right cultural fit for you organization. So that’s why it’s important to take a look at kind of way. You want to go before [00:12:21.57] spk_3:
you say that If you’re not gonna do a full full blown strategic plan planning process, you want to at least identify what your organizational goals are. [00:12:45.52] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think there are some people that don’t do a full blown strategic plan. I think that you could do that, but I think more importantly, what you want to do and a good search from what we do is we do sort of an assessment of where you’re at in your life cycle as an organization and as a board. Um And then we interview members of your board and you’re seeing your team to get a sense of, Well, you’re at that helps us or dramatically beginning the on boarding closet with your next CEO. So we know kind of what their challenges are versus going about it blind. So I do think that you wanna have and I point this out in the book. You want to have a sense of your strategic vision where you’re heading and pick up some of the key goals were having Yes. So when you’re interviewing came that you want to make sure their line with those gold here and it makes much smoother transition, [00:13:24.42] spk_3:
some of the goals you lay out besides mission envision our fundraising and development. You know what you wanna do around that? You’re bored CEO relationship? Your programs and service is andi Course. You know, the book explains what goes into detail each of those, but, um, [00:13:31.78] spk_5:
I had a couple of [00:13:45.44] spk_0:
it. Certainly, you know, you walk additional capacity. What do you have in terms of leadership development? Do you have, Ah, plan to develop the people you have there? What’s going on with you? Border. You building the right board? Are you branding your organization and communicating that the impact you’re having? It’s important things today, So there’s a lot of, ah, strategic goals that one should be having with this pauses. And, uh, you want to get a sort of buying from your board and have the new CEO committed help implement this employee. [00:14:33.50] spk_3:
And okay, so this new CEO is gonna have need to have some skills, and you make the point that you don’t want to be constrained by what the what the skills and talents of the existing CEO are. We want to be thinking beyond that. I mean, that’s that’s part of what this organizational either planning or identifying the goals is gonna do is help you look forward, not current. You know you just don’t want you don’t want to just replicate the current CEO’s talents, but you want to build on those for the for the future, and you identify a whole bunch of potential skills that you might be looking for a visionary thinker, entrepreneurial spirit relationship builder, et cetera. But you wanna be going beyond the current. [00:15:37.66] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s easy question when you have someone you know, Uh, you know, what kind of ah kind of deal are you looking for? And that the person who’s been in the job for the past 10 50 years for name is Surely people would be like someone like Charlie. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. I think that the challenges that your previous CEO had may be silly, but they also be very different. And one of things that you just mentioned that I have in the book in another books. In my work, I D’oh tony, is the idea of today’s competencies were, uh, executive leadership, non public sector, dramatically different than they were 5 10 years ago. There’s nothing wrong with what they were in the past, you know, aboard, we’re looking for someone who was a a mission based person who could have built a good relationship in the community, probably someone who could manage people in programs and perhaps someone who could go out and get a grant. Though their skills are still important. Today they look for more than just kills but compensation traits such as they want a visionary thinkers today, when the House, the CEO or executive director would implement the board’s vision. Today, boards are looking for CEOs to create their own vision [00:15:55.82] spk_5:
cream organization. [00:16:34.49] spk_0:
I want a visionary thinker, which takes coverage of creative vision number two. Certainly people want the idea of relationship. Will the building relationships outside inside the organization, someone who’s a social entrepreneur who can help develop the resource is important, ships that you need not just managed and when you got So is a whole series of conferences that identify in the book, including, you know, being a collaborative non about how big of a budget you have in control. It’s about collaboration. So, yes, there is a lot of new compass is out there for CEOs and executives, but I use the term some of the CEO jacket director do all the time. [00:17:04.11] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s fair. That’s fair Fares. Similarities. Yeah, of course. Um, I did have a guest years ago. Uh, Eugene Fram he was a professor at I think he was a university of Rochester. Andi made a case that he wanted it to be the CEO. He he felt that chief executive officer conveys a greater gravitas than executive director and CEO. That chief executive makes it less likely doesn’t make no guarantee. But let’s like that. Board members will get involved in the nitty gritty, the day to day management, you know, be be micromanaging a CEO versus an executive director. I did you give any preference for one over there? I know the book uses anonymously, but you have a preference for one over the other [00:17:40.10] spk_0:
radio. You know, tony, the point you’re raises a really good one, and I do have a pilot in the book of my work. But I do think today the more contemporary title is chief executive officer, um, the more contemporary title is board, ship or support president. What you kind of the past is, um, it may just be words, but I think they have a lot of [00:17:42.99] spk_5:
connotations. They do find themselves. [00:17:53.44] spk_0:
I’d like to see board chair for sport president. I think the top lay personal pipe a person should be the president CEO, and I think that was profit last year right there. When you’re out there with donors. So it’s more than just an executive director, um, overseeing the apartment. You really keep executive making things happen. I do. I do before the word CEO [00:18:07.92] spk_3:
on and also executive director. I mean, that’s that’s sort of a uniquely non profit term [00:18:13.17] spk_5:
way. Want to think that [00:18:15.38] spk_3:
running like businesses run this thing like a business happens to be a nonprofit corporation? [00:18:19.26] spk_5:
But don’t tell [00:18:22.79] spk_0:
mother interviews with you. It’s came up the term, you know, non properties. You tax [00:18:26.85] spk_5:
that business [00:18:29.26] spk_0:
plans. I think it’s important that today’s title be CEO. I just really think that’s important Title that have [00:18:38.81] spk_3:
Let’s get into some nitty gritty. I want to start with the the search committee who belongs on this thing. [00:20:03.91] spk_0:
Well, clearly, I think the this you know that in terms of size of the dominant members of the search committee should be members of the board. Now, can you have a non board member on this? It’s absolutely who might that be? Well, if you have someone on your community that you know has experience with search, maybe a human resource background and then on your board, you want to get their advice and gets a good. That’s a good conclusion. But generally speaking, if you have a board say of 12 to 15 people, you may want a search committee of maybe five, maybe seven maximum. But I’ve seen larger or smaller, so sizes of the committee is important. Number two be tremendous amount of time commitment. So the members of the search committee have to realize it’s going to be an involvement here in some time. And then obviously the key part of that will be who will be your share of the search committee. In some cases, it’s a chair of the board, which is completely appropriate. Other times that could be the vice chair of the future chair. Ah, lot of people ask me all the time would it be okay tohave the form of a former board chair, a strip search committee? And I would say, Maybe I would say, maybe on Lee, because if the former board chair eyes focus about what happened yesterday and not involved as much in your strategic planning for [00:20:09.73] spk_5:
the future, not so much because [00:20:10.19] spk_0:
they won’t know exactly what they’re looking for. [00:20:12.06] spk_5:
You all right? [00:20:21.88] spk_0:
This is committee has got to be a forward, approaching organization, afford poaching committee. I think that’s kind of that’s something that I would be looking for a nose of membership. [00:20:25.04] spk_3:
What about an employee putting one on one employee on the committee? [00:20:28.94] spk_0:
I don’t think that’s a good idea. Actually, I think it’s a bad [00:20:32.91] spk_5:
idea. [00:20:33.45] spk_0:
Come out Whiter Bay and say not give example. [00:20:36.04] spk_5:
Okay, [00:21:21.00] spk_0:
Uh, I’ve had people wondering to put the, you know, you know, the current CEO on the search committee, and I The answer is no. Then Walvis of the current CEO, Timmy, and help in the search committee and the consultant, or either inside or outside of what a search committee helped develop aspects of the position profit. What will be the ideal qualifications and experience of the next CEO? But the board hires and fires a CEO. It’s also very uncomfortable for a current CEO to be on the search committee. I had a case where, um, it wasn’t my search client, but it was my client that I helped with succession planning in. They had an internal candidate for the position, and when the search committee as this person, what changes would you make? She’s very awkward to be talking about the changes you want to make with [00:21:29.27] spk_5:
us. Of course. Right [00:21:43.45] spk_0:
eye. But now there’s times when you get there, some people that have their VP of HR on the search committee of the knee that lays on. But remember, people, it’s not a good idea. Have staff. It’s not good to have senior members of the committee on the search committee. It should be his board Members of Donald. [00:21:49.42] spk_3:
Okay, predominately. And then you said, maybe a volunteer, [00:21:53.09] spk_0:
if you need expertise. I mean, if you know, if you’re going to not have a search committee and may Sometimes people can hire a certain person not to do the search, but just give advice. But I think you want someone on the committee that has experienced in recruitment, identifying screening candidates and all that’s happened things, so [00:22:11.40] spk_5:
you could [00:22:11.84] spk_0:
build it up. Great. [00:22:15.91] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um, this search committee has to assure that applicants confidentiality is gonna be maintained, right? [00:22:41.07] spk_0:
You want a crucial because I make it clear to all my such amazing you could be you could be sued for. Ah, um we could be potentially have a liability for exposing that there is a candidate. You tell your friend, by the way, you know donating. Is it been interviewing for me and and before you know it, Tony’s employer finds out, you know, feels like this is loyal to the prom, so you have to protect confidential. It’s something that I have to establish the trust of my chance coming in. They’re out. They’re they’re adamant, and it’s just it goes with the same goes with the business. I have to keep them confidential. There’s no way can let people know they’re seeking a [00:23:07.71] spk_3:
job. And this goes partly to, ah, the time commitment. You know, if if there isn’t a ah ah, a search consultant helping some of these conversations that the early stage is gonna have to be after hours people are gonna be comfortable talking between, you know, nine and six PM [00:24:12.45] spk_0:
Yeah, I had, you know, in our business is growing tremendously. What’s what’s going on. But you know, when people you know, maybe I’ll do it myself if you can. It’s up to you, but the time involved for not just the identifying the characteristics and compasses of what you want, but the outreach to potential candidates. Very time consuming. If you’re going to delegate that members of a church Dominion war So you know professionals are working or even retired. It’s a lot of work involved in screening people, scheduling interviews, scheduling meetings, being qualified to interview people. It’s a lot of time. Of all the narrowing candidates down and doing the reference checking, it’s quite a bit. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in the process, not just putting in and out there and then, you know, interviewing kids. It’s quite a bit of work to both sell candidates on why they want to take a look at this opportunity. That’s really important, [00:24:17.63] spk_3:
which is when I was just gonna point out that you say something that caught my eye was very, very interesting. I hadn’t heard before that the search committee has an obligation to our role Thio be selling the applicants on the organization Not [00:24:30.88] spk_5:
just to be not just to be a neutral a [00:24:33.02] spk_3:
neutral committee, but be advocates for the organ. [00:24:52.80] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, the cannon is gonna come in, they’re gonna come in prepared, and they’re there to sell themselves. And what often happens on some cases where the search committee say, Jeez, I thought, you know, how come they don’t think that we’re the best thing since sliced bread? Well, you want to convey a sense of optimism, a sense of enthusiasm. So you need the candidate’s gonna besides what the search consultant is gonna be telling them about the organization of recruiting for as a search committee, a CZ members that you want to be portraying a very positive image. You want to be sort of extending your hand. You want to be greeting them. You want to make them feel welcome in warm, even if you’re not gonna be selected them. And you noted on the process you want to believe with a very positive for Donna. That’s a major all the search committee as it is. [00:25:43.32] spk_3:
All right? Yeah. Interesting. Let’s move, Thio, Resume screening. You got. You got a ton of tips you’ve you’ve reviewed thousands of. But you’ve got You’ve got a lot of tips to share. Share a couple of resume screen tips Now, we’re at that stage that these things are coming in. Resume resumes a lot of resumes coming out share, share a couple of resumes, screening tips, [00:26:33.79] spk_0:
a couple things one of things you want to look for is Clary right off the bat asses. Clary. Is it clear as to how their name and how to get a hold of you? You don’t always have to have your home address these days, but certainly a phone number and email address. I think I look for one of things that we look for on our team is more of a chronological history. I want to know kind of where, where’s your career bed and a couple of tips you look for someone’s been, you know, in a job every one or two years, and they leave quite quickly. That’s a that’s a signal potential red flag, red flag were bad thing, but it should be there. The other thing that those there some people for it is the functional resume where you get a sense of what their skills are experiences, but you never get intensive where they perform that. So two things on a resume, both for people that are considering throwing their hat in the ring on applying for a position or responding to a search from is clarity is the resume clear of what I’ve accomplished is it clear what have achieved as a clear in terms of the timetables have. And I think that’s a couple of tips on the resume that it really [00:26:51.37] spk_3:
yeah, that that gap in employment that could be a woman who took time off to raise Children [00:27:00.22] spk_5:
absolutely. Was a caregiver was given for power [00:27:11.59] spk_0:
that was concerned about a gap. And I said, Just tell him you have a PhD in parenthood. I mean, should be proud to be a parent way. Don’t have parents. We don’t keep that one. So I think it’s totally appropriate. But be honest with what you don’t want to do is start to cover things up here, Um, and so the, you know, present yourself in a positive tone. But certainly be honest if you took a couple of years out or time out to raise Children and be proud of it. And you did but these skills and bring back the table, I’m educated Workforce. [00:27:30.47] spk_5:
I think [00:27:31.17] spk_0:
I’m playing with that. [00:27:34.97] spk_3:
Let me ask you a quick one. Does this turn you off? When you see people with email addresses that are Hotmail or a ol? Does that suggest to you that somebody is out of touch with technology [00:27:58.20] spk_0:
now. I don’t know. Not any. Tell you why? Because most of them have to e mails. They have their business email and the personal email. And so they don’t want ah, search from or an organization that there may be talking to going into their professional at work email [00:27:59.17] spk_5:
like, Yeah, I get that. [00:28:04.63] spk_0:
I’m okay with the Gmail accounts. It’s when I see you know Dennis at, you know, big love dot com. I [00:28:11.83] spk_5:
have Is that you? I’m gonna try that one. Yeah. Okay, [00:28:15.05] spk_3:
but wait. Yeah, And then when did the e mails that are unprofessional? Like baby cakes, you know, But [00:28:25.47] spk_5:
I don’t want no baby cakes. Yeah, that’s unprofessional, but all right, [00:28:27.77] spk_0:
I think it’s a potato to protect you. You know, your privacy from work. I think that’s fun. [00:28:47.61] spk_3:
All right, but let me ask you. But but my point was, if it’s an added, you know, sort of added date domain, like a o. L or Hotmail or yeah, you know, does that suggest to you that somebody’s not hip with the current with technology? Now, [00:28:51.94] spk_0:
if you know, if you haven’t out of the email address, and then your resume looks out of date and it’s not clear that’s not gonna help you. So if that is your email address, um, and at that, eh? Oh, well, I mean, I’m flying with that. [00:29:05.98] spk_5:
I’m [00:29:06.37] spk_0:
playing with that. [00:31:31.72] spk_3:
All right? Long is not baby cakes today. Oh, well, all right, way Need to take a break, wegner. No. Cougar Mountain Cuckoo Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. What that means for you is that it’s got what you need. Like fund accounting, fraud prevention, grant and donor management. Custom reporting the awesome customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page, which you will always find at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take to last chance. This is the last call for innovators with doing the innovators. Siri’s in early 2020. Got a bunch of people I could use a couple more if you or someone you know, our, um tackling a problem or just approaching whatever challenges day to day issues in a different way. Then you think your ah, your colleagues elsewhere are and you’re having some success with it. Then I’d like to talk to you because you might be right for our innovators. Siris, Are you Are you innovating? Whether it’s any the fundraising topics which are myriad or its board relationships or could be bored recruiting CEO recruiting like we’re talking about today, whatever it is. Program management. Um, if you’re doing something innovative, tell me about it. Let me know you got You’ve had some success at it and let’s talk. Let’s see if there’s a fit for our innovators. Siri’s. You can get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com or used the contact page at tony-martignetti dot com. That is tony Stick to. Shall we continue with Dennis Miller and recruiting your CEO? I say we shall. Dennis Miller’s with us. You know him? We’re talking about his book, A guide to recruiting your next CEO. You know, we can’t We can’t cover the whole book, so just get the thing. For goodness sake. You know it’s a dentist. See miller dot com. That’s where you’ll find dentists in this book. Just get the damn thing. It’s just that I don’t know how to make it any plainer. All right, anyway, Dennis, let’s continue our joint through Um okay, so we’ve got a bunch of resumes and the book goes through Lots of lots of resume screening tips. I mean, when I don’t have time to go through all the tips, but there’s a lot there. Um, now we’re into interviewing. So you say there are two things were looking for. They were looking for the interpersonal and skills ability. [00:33:40.69] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean the entity process. Once we screen people intense of un resume on paper, we certainly begin actually with phone interviews and then once leaves, go to the phone in the process, and we can get a better sense of where they are. As a potential candidate, we may explain a final car weather at one. A salary package, so without can’t be wasting people’s time here. But there are a couple of two things you’re looking for. Um, do they have a cultural fit? Do they have interpersonal skills that will build your team on 18 builders or the You know, are they collaborators of the good communicators? And then obviously did they have the ability to deliver positive results. And I think those two things is what kinda, you know, separates the people who get to positions of those that don’t hear. I. We advised. Certainly the search committee on you know the question should be focused on Limited tony, too. You know, their person’s behavior, their skills, their experience, what they bring to the table, not things that deal with things like, you know, age and discrimination and gender and all those kind of things that you want to avoid. But the bottom line is who can communicate their ability to get along with people because it’s a team game and committal results. Those are two things that are a crucial now, one of things that you may ask me. I just want answers ahead of time is we have and your listeners could get if they contact and get onto our newsletter. But we at non profit search dot com, we provide a candidate matrix that has sort of a scoring sheet with certain questions on it. I would have told a score of 50 and whether it’s on leadership, communications street, strategic planning board relationships, etcetera. So when people actually going to the interview process on the search committee and you’ve got 48 people supposedly going in the search committee members can evaluate for people and where people come out. Usually it’s good to have with them. [00:33:52.62] spk_3:
You have a lot of resource is at the non profit search dot com. So, uh, you mentioned throughout the book, but that’s scoring Matrix is one of them. All right, so let’s get into some details here now. Is the whole committee meeting with every, um, every candidate? Because if it’s subsets of a committee meeting with different candidates, then I don’t. That doesn’t seem fair to me because different subsets air gonna judge people differently. [00:34:35.03] spk_0:
Yeah, well, here’s what we do. Um And, um, the answer is that the entire search committee needs prepared to interview all the candidates. Now, in a case we just have here because it’s got multiple locations, there are actually eight people on a search committee and four will meet in one location and four met another location. Actually, each candidate each of the five final candidates you met which twice, but they but they are all seeing yet you cannot have one group meet so many candidates and another good meet the only other candy that’s part of the process with a search committee he’s gonna be on the committee. You have to have the type of every every candidate to be seen by every person [00:34:54.42] spk_3:
you advocate. I mean, this is sort of a no brainer, but just make it explicit, you know? You don’t want to be asking Yes, no questions. You are open ended questions. [00:35:35.66] spk_0:
Yeah, you hear? You don’t want to say, You know, uh, you want you want engage him in conversation and they want engage you in conversation too. And so, you know, asking questions. What was the most challenging thing you had a deal with in your current position? On your most recent position? What was the your biggest achievement? Uh, he has an issue for us. How would you deal with it? Stay away from the yes or no questions. And we have, You know, we’ve identified on a website and our resources and our book here. No question to be asking, but it’s not open it. Not not yes or no Open ended question. Engagement of conversation is the best. [00:35:43.20] spk_3:
Okay, uh, let’s say we’ve everybody has interviewed all the candidates. Uh, now what’s our next step in the committee? [00:36:55.22] spk_0:
What will you want to do is you wanna have everybody son of score the candidates and give feedback on the candidates and have the board chair or someone assigned to oversee the accumulation of all the scoring so you can see how people did. And then what you want to do is and what we do is I have I have a conversation with this share of the search committee, and then, uh, I will then meet with the search committee, or one of my senior member of the team will meet with the search committee, dependable of the searches and what it’s for. And then we they may determine that. Listen, there’s one final candidates. There’s just one person they like and they want to bring him back to meet with people in the organization. Take him on a tour or there’s two final plans. They’re not sure. So there’s a process here. The pluses here is obviously to let the other candidates know that they did well and they thank you before participating. But there’s someone at this point in time that has a skill centre experience that’s Maur meets the needs of my client. We hope to see him again. The future and then focus in on having to help them make a final decision on the candidate before we get involved and advise him on making making a final offer on an employment contract. Employment agreement [00:37:14.41] spk_3:
right now in this scoring, Obviously, some were going to score highest in High Esten higher than others. But suppose there’s just there’s just a sense that, uh, you know, even the highest scoring one or two just they’re just not right. It was just, you know, like I said, every in a group of five. Somebody’s going to score the highest. But even that highest one, they just don’t feel right, you know? How do we way feel like we may have to go back to the go back to the recruitment process [00:37:36.37] spk_5:
Well expressed. Happened, [00:39:20.56] spk_0:
uh, you know, only once in my recent experience where, um, in most cases, uh, in addition, the scoring members of the search committee and you know, as you know, the millions of millions of people that serve on non proper boards throughout this country and in other countries. In Canada, you know, our bright, committed people, they gotta see it. You gotta feel for, you know, who you think would fit in here. So usually you know the scores will help you because it gives you a feedback. But usually you get a kind of feeling who would be the best person for that If there’s a situation, Um, that, you know, the search committee sees the final candidates. And if it happens that you feel like there’s, you know, just not feeling it for those candidates, I absolutely would highly recommend that you go back and do the search again. We have a situation with a very prominent national foundation. We started with believing out of pool of 18 candidates, uh, knit, knit up, down with it down to 11. That was down to five. And five people came in. And so the entire team and that team in there identified, you know, two people and, uh, lo and behold, some discussion and some some time issues, and then people not sure what decision to make. And it was some inexperience on the team making decision, and they kind of planted and they just so I’m not sure I’m ready to pull the trigger. So we were disappointed for the work we did. We will back out into the search again and usually don’t get the great candidates again. And we did, and it worked out. So if for some reason you don’t feel it, I dont just say, Well, because there’s a high score because you’re gonna live with this person quite awhile. Usually does not happen. Tony. [00:39:24.64] spk_5:
You, um [00:39:34.96] spk_0:
you know the search for doing the work, you’ll get the right candidate. But if it’s amazing, you feel that, you know, I just don’t feel it. So this person is going to fit in here that don’t just pick someone because of scored. The scores are one of the many tools will you offer to help you pick your candidate? [00:39:41.30] spk_3:
Is this the stage where we should be calling references? Now we’ve We’ve narrowed it down to our top two or [00:39:45.51] spk_5:
so. [00:40:20.91] spk_0:
So what will a CZ We get? The final can’t wait, Do ask for reference, but here’s what we do. We don’t ask them. They tell us who they’re going to use this reference. We are specific and ask him for the type of reference we’re looking. For example, in a CEO case, we know they can’t talk about the company we’d liketo have been talked. We’d like to talk to someone who is a board member, maybe a board member. Another organization would like to talk to someone that appear that they have done a lot of work with. We would like to talk to someone that has worked for them. So, uh, we don’t always talkto the references. I had a time because if you’ve got four final candidates, we it’s not about our time. It’s that we if you’re not going to be chosen, why go through the hassle of asking people and speaking to the reference But with your Jarious final candidate, we absolutely do a thorough construct. And I have a little bit of a funny story that you’re Listen, [00:40:45.19] spk_5:
um, you [00:41:15.73] spk_0:
may enjoy it just kind of quickly here, and it goes back a long time ago when I did my first start believing not 30 years ago, and I was recruiting someone to head up a healthcare foundation and came down to two people, and it was, ah, man, a woman. And remember, the man had sort of Maur experience, But the young woman had seemed like much more potential anyway, for some reason, that the man had given me a list of 10 references. Don’t ask me why, but he gave me 10 references, and I call it the 46 References. This man kind of walked on water. He was, you know, could have been their spiritual guru. [00:41:22.76] spk_5:
But the time I got the [00:41:23.74] spk_0:
78 I really got a sense that people were not that comfortable. Then by the time I got denying, 10 people were asking me, you know, why did you What did this guy even give me a reference? [00:41:36.38] spk_5:
The moral stories you want to keep, [00:42:12.63] spk_0:
you know, kind of dig in here, and it’s certainly you have a light as a as an organization, and you have a right as a search committee to, you know, find out what you know about people, which is what we d’oh and same time protecting a confidential alley. But certainly we need to do a thorough research on them. And then, in addition to references, we obviously do a check on, um, educational credentials. And then we advise our clients baseball what state they’re in about what they can do and not do regarding the one pursue feeling criminal background check, will and credit credit risk of credit reports. [00:42:58.13] spk_3:
It sounds like that guy on his word document that he gave you with the list of was 30 years ago. We didn’t have words we have. We have word. We’re gonna be using that word perfect. Where you had to write down at the bottom, you have to change the bold face down at the bottom of page. Anyway, it sounds like he conflated his do not use list with his reference list that he did want to use, like, the last four. We’re We’re on a separate list and he somehow put the two of them together. All right, we gotta take a break. I missed our last break. You ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you to do that. They themselves are former journalists. They specialize [00:43:04.45] spk_4:
in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a [00:43:45.38] spk_3:
turn hyphen to dot ceo. Let’s add a little more live love. We got someone jumped in from New York, New York. Welcome. Welcome. New New York New York listener Also. Bangkok, Thailand. I’ve been there and that’s a beautiful city. Beautiful, rich history and, uh, Tijuana, Mexico. Wegner Star Days, Tijuana. Let’s go back. We’ve got butt loads. More time, as we always do for recruiting your next CEO. Now back to Dennis Miller and his book, a guy to recruiting your next CEO. Let’s continue our joint. Ah, Ajanta Dennis. Okay, so we’ve checked references, references, and this and that we’re bringing some people in were like site tours And what? They’re meeting some of the staff now, too. And maybe even some of some of the people who are getting our service is, [00:44:01.29] spk_0:
uh, no, what? We worked a [00:44:02.76] spk_5:
man that don’t do that made staff [00:44:05.36] spk_0:
until they are having a pleasant [00:44:08.26] spk_5:
way. [00:44:29.60] spk_0:
In actuality, you don’t You don’t really want the staff on my opinion on a CEO level. Uh, they have to pick the CEO. If it’s another level. Certainly, if it’s a chief operating officer of chief financial officer, it’s probably appropriate to have other members of the executive team meet with them, then find out who’s a better fit culture, that line. [00:44:32.94] spk_5:
But [00:44:34.11] spk_0:
on a CEO, though, you won’t make it clear that the board is making the decision and I would not have staff involved on interviewing until mating accepted. [00:44:45.18] spk_3:
So who are they meeting then? In this this day when they’re going to visit the visit? The site. [00:44:50.16] spk_0:
While so many have gone to the search committee, Obviously, there’s no one else to me except the entire board. So if you’re talking about the CEO [00:44:58.03] spk_5:
way, our home, [00:46:29.73] spk_0:
that once a search committee has made a decision, um, before an offer was made, it’s, uh, what the search committee wants to Dio doesn’t really have any authority to itself. You wanna search? Committee should be making a recommendation to the entire board, and in many cases, and I will advise us is have that final CEO Warren. The case where there’s too close candidates committed. Meet the entire board may be on the same day, you know, spend a little time with each one. Um, if if there’s one, that’s clearly, uh, the person that everybody wants. Don’t waste the time of having to to feel you have to bring a 2nd 1 and you given someone hope when when they’re not probably gonna be selected But I have an interesting story, tony, that you listen, May 1. Here. Uh, about a year ago, we did a search for a CEO, and the search committee had him ranked. Wanted to have this. Ah, woman ranked one and a guy number two. And, um, I had agreed with that recommendation. Thought it was the best way of going. And by the time those two candidates came in to meet with the entire board and this is an unusual situation. Ah, the board ended up going with the number two candidate and not the number one candidate. And some things came up in discussions. And I think at the end of day, they made the right decision. So don’t forget, the board has the final hiring authority. They delegate that that a search committee to search committee is here to recommend candidates. But do not hire a CEO from a search committee on Lee. They must meet the entire board. [00:46:35.38] spk_3:
Have you ever heard of co CEOs? [00:47:32.68] spk_0:
Yeah, I have. And I I found it never. Well, a couple times, it rarely works there. It works in a case where today there’s a lot of mergers and acquisitions so both people take on the role of co CEO. 1 may have responsibility for maybe a certain geography one than another. Ah, one’s focus more on one thing I before not the have it. I think, uh, co CEOs is like co board chairs. Um, it doesn’t make a feeling that anybody is really in charge. Um, I’m working with an organization right now out in California because we do certainly national searches as well as in Canada. And you know, there’s a transition going on and it’s the heart organization. It’s important to know who’s in charge. So if it has to happen and you’re particularly with a merger, can you have it? Yes, but ideally, it sooner than later, it’s only a position. You can’t have a Coast CEO. It doesn’t work. I’ve seen co chief development offices, and it doesn’t work either. I mean, I think someone has to be in charge. So that’s my opinion. [00:48:18.83] spk_3:
Okay, way explored co CEOs with Jean Takagi. So if anyone wants Thio, get more on that. That was the May 19th 2017 show with Gene. Um, Okay. Um all right, we, uh it’s time to negotiate an offer we were, uh we’ve selected our top one. Um, you like guards? Guidestar. They have? I don’t know if you mentioned I know them. Guide star has a good salary guide. Comes out every year. S Oh, it’s it’s current. Um, but do you have other studies that you like? [00:48:21.17] spk_0:
Yeah, a couple of things here. We have a good sense of what the marketplaces like. Different geography, maybe [00:48:26.80] spk_5:
waken [00:48:46.47] spk_0:
use guide star and I. I like your condition well, but here’s the palm and it’s not Guide says bomb. Is that usually the data that’s in there where you have the five highest compensated employees? It’s probably two years old. Um, even if it says 2016 and you’re in 17 it may have been, you know, we were involved in June of 2015 so I don’t rely upon that Nestle as a guide for [00:48:53.31] spk_5:
making offer. I [00:49:23.71] spk_0:
know what the organization, um, is looking to pay. I know what What? The Sally is people that are looking, and then we I advise because I’m involved in every single. So I advise my client is what I think it’s gonna take to get the person I’ve seen clients do salary surveys using Geiser and other things that commit some other compensations. Raise. There’s nothing wrong with it, but what you don’t get from that. You don’t know what the performance of the organization has been. You don’t know how well they’ve done. You don’t know what how well they’ve done with fund raising. [00:49:30.20] spk_5:
You [00:49:39.63] spk_0:
know, you don’t know much about him other than what the total budget is. So one of the advantages of doing what? What the rate is to attract some money, and that’s kind of what we do. [00:49:43.61] spk_3:
Okay, let’s spend our last couple minutes. Ah, you just gotta buy the book because there’s a lot more about negotiating the offer in the book. But I wanna spend last couple minutes just about two minutes or so on on on boarding. This is a board responsive board responsibility. [00:50:09.19] spk_0:
Well, that’s a big thing. I mean, you know, if you talk to CEOs, I mean, half of them have never been on border. So what? What do you mean by sort of on board a candidate? Well, are on boarding. I’m boarding. If you don’t get on board, you get hired, and then you start, and then you go, Jeez, I don’t know. This is the way. Itwas [00:50:15.06] spk_3:
you know, you’re not supported in your new digital, John. So [00:50:25.65] spk_0:
I know what you on boarding refers to. The idea of preparing a CEO to adjust to the new social, cultural and professional components [00:50:26.92] spk_5:
of the new [00:51:14.06] spk_0:
role and or to the board here really, very important that be some type of on boarding process. So, as an example here, here’s some things you would want to be thinking about with on boarding. Here is, um let’s be clear. So both the board and the CEO and again, you could say the same thing about a CEO or CFO. What? She’s development officer. Same thing here is what are the expectations of each other? Clearly, that’s gonna come up. Don’t interview puzzle, but that needs to be known. How often does the board chair I want to communicate to the CEO? Did they want to meet monthly? Did they want have a phone conversation on every other Friday? Did they want e mails or not e mails that they want to meet for breakfast? Um, what does the board want the CEO to accomplish in the 1st 30 days or 60 days, or maybe 180 [00:51:21.37] spk_5:
days. [00:51:27.63] spk_0:
What the cultural issues or financial issues that the organization is facing. What senior members of the team may have some performances. The watch out for who were the key stakeholders outside the organization, like donors of volunteers that you want the seal to make sure that building wishes perhaps, maybe with a local Congress person or a member of the Senate Assembly here. [00:51:46.27] spk_3:
Dennis Dennis. We gotta leave it there. There’s too much. [00:51:49.16] spk_5:
All right. Thank [00:52:08.43] spk_3:
you so much, Dennis. Same for you. Get the book. It is a guy to recruiting your next CEO. You’ll find it at Dennis c. Miller dot com, and you’ll find him at Dennis C. Miller next week. We don’t have any show, so I’m wishing you happy. Turkey Day. Help you enjoy your Thanksgiving. I hope it’s time away from work, including email and text. [00:52:19.61] spk_4:
If texting is part of your work, [00:53:03.64] spk_3:
um, and time with family, family and maybe even dear friends. I hope you enjoy your Thanksgiving. We’ll be back on December 6th with Vivian Hexter on Big Impact. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO creative producers [00:53:44.00] spk_2:
Clad Meyerhoff. Sam Leave, which is the lying producer thief shows social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein Knew every next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% will actually be with me in two weeks for big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.
