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Nonprofit Radio for February 14, 2020: Relationship Fundraising

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My Guest:

Adrian Sargeant: Relationship Fundraising
There’s a lot of conventional wisdom about how to be donor centric and build strong relationships. But what does social psychology research tell us about how to achieve these and what your donors expect from you at each relationship stage? Adrian Sargeant is chief executive of The Philanthropy Centre. (Originally aired March 18, 2016)

 

 

 

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[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:31.34] spk_3:
non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on her aptly named host, Happy Valentine’s Day. I hope that you and your Valentine or Valentine’s may have multiple. Let’s not go into detail. Are enjoying time together I don’t know together, or at least corresponding together to share your affinity and Valentine’s wishes with each other. Um, I remember. I remember in elementary school this is probably kindergarten or first grade E. I think everybody’s done this. We used to make the little Valentine’s Day cards, and you had you did one card for everybody in your little class. And as I look back on that now, I think that is repugnant, forced like this kindergarten coercion that you have to be Valentine’s with everybody in the class. I hated the

[00:01:05.61] spk_2:
kids in my class is I

[00:02:47.55] spk_3:
Look back now They were They were unrequited. Uh uh. I don’t want to say unrequited loves because we’re talking about kindergarten, unrequited crushes. Yeah, and bullies and geeks who reminded me of myself while I was I was trying to be kindergarten. Cool, of course. So these kids drove me crazy and I have to do a card for each one of these little kids. I should’ve put arsenic in or something. What’s that? White powder? Everybody. Males, I forget what that is. Anthrax, I should put it. I should be interactive. Those kindergarten cards just so big deal. Happy Valentine’s Day. All right, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into cardio megally if you swelled my heart with how much you’re looking forward to today’s show relationship. Fundraising. What else? There’s a lot of conventional wisdom about how to be donor centric and build strong relationships. But what the social psychology research tell us about how to achieve these and what your donors expect from you at each relationship stage. Adrian Sergeant was a professor at Plymouth University and directed its Center for Sustainable Philanthropy that originally aired on March 18th 2016 on Tony’s Take two planned giving relationships. What else were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Adrian Sergeant is now chief executive of the Philanthropy Center, a consultancy in the UK Philanthropy Hyphen Center Dot or GE, with the English speaking um Spelling the English spelling, I should say of Center, Very sophisticated. Here is personalized philanthropy.

[00:03:42.59] spk_2:
It’s my pleasure to welcome Professor Adrian Sergeant to the show. He’s professor of fundraising at Plymouth University and director of the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy. There he used to hold the Hartsook chair in fundraising at the Lily Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University. Fact, he’s calling today from Bloomington. He’s a prolific author, researcher and presenter. If you go to the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy website, you will get bored scrolling down his list of books, papers, articles and presentations. Center, by the way, is C E N T R e. We have, ah, snooty English university there. Plymouth. He’s at Adrian Sergeant, and his last name is spelled like the military rank. Welcome, doctor, Professor. Edgy and Sergeant.

[00:03:58.14] spk_0:
Well, thanks.

[00:04:00.47] spk_2:
Pleasure. Welcome from from Bloomington, Indiana. How is it there?

[00:04:05.04] spk_4:
It’s a lovely spring day here, and

[00:04:07.43] spk_0:
I’m looking at into blue skies in sometime, which

[00:04:12.63] spk_2:
is not. Not always the case in the UK either.

[00:04:19.35] spk_0:
Uh, no, Certainly not in my part of the UK. Everything you hear about British rain and British weather is pretty much true. My region.

[00:04:23.61] spk_2:
I see. What region where his Plymouth

[00:04:26.71] spk_0:
Thomas is right down in the southwest tip of the country on its claim to fame, I suppose, for your audience is that it’s where the Pilgrim Fathers set sail from

[00:04:36.42] spk_4:
years ago. The Mayflower left from the steps of the barbeque in the area in the city. A plumber.

[00:04:54.89] spk_2:
Oh, excellent. Okay, that’s interesting. Oh, and then Plymouth. Then we have Plymouth Rock on the US side. So? So that was a very symmetric trip. I never knew that. Total symmetry ever

[00:04:56.16] spk_4:
visit. You can actually see the steps that

[00:05:04.10] spk_0:
the Pilgrim Fathers used Thio aboard the main fire before they set bail on that. That point Very epic journey.

[00:05:06.15] spk_2:
Yeah, of course. I I guess they called it Plymouth Rock Thio make it symmetric. So it’s not like it was named. It wasn’t named Plymouth Rock when they landed on it. I don’t want people to think that that’s what I was assuming that it was named Plymouth Rock when they landed. I don’t believe it was, um okay. Oh, very cool. Interesting. Thank you. Um, all right. Relationship fundraising. Adrian, it’s okay if I call you Adrian, right?

[00:05:29.41] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:05:37.64] spk_2:
Okay. I don’t get Doctor, you know, you’re not calling on me for questions or anything. So Dr a professor. Okay, Adrian, um, what’s the current state of this? I gather it’s not what it ought to be.

[00:05:59.63] spk_0:
No, sadly, the quality of relationship fundraising automatically in the States but around the world is not in a particularly happy space right now on the reason I say that is because he’s now got quite a lot of data on the pattern that dona retention and loyalty that we’re able to generate. And obviously the whole thrust of relationship fundraising is that you want to build longer term, mutually satisfying relationships and supported

[00:06:11.90] spk_2:
yes,

[00:06:25.50] spk_0:
and all the evidence that the moment is that it’s going in entirely the opposite direction we lose. Typically in the States, we lose around 70% of our supporters between the first and the second donation, and then probably around 30% of them year on year thereafter. Well, you try running a business.

[00:06:52.33] spk_2:
Yeah, I’ve had other guests on Quote that exact same statistic, and I don’t understand how this can be because there is so much talk about donor centric donor centrism and we have to listen to our donors and pay attention to their needs and put them in the center. Why Why? Why is this not working? There’s so much talk about it. Why are we not doing it?

[00:07:21.34] spk_0:
I think there are only two reasons for that. One is that often when I talk about loyalty and retention in the sense that kind of preaching to acquire a lot of fundraisers know what they should be doing or could be doing. But they don’t always necessarily get the stain level of investment from the board that they’re looking for on it could be oftentimes quite able to push that level of change through The second reason I think is on. We might talk more about this, but I think one of the problems we have in fundraising is that it’s one of the few professions, in fact, probably the only profession you enjoin

[00:07:38.08] spk_4:
without actually meeting to know anything. Good luck, you know, going to see a dentist

[00:08:03.91] spk_0:
to have studied or doctor that had studied or even employing a plumber who hasn’t studied. It’s important. I think, that fundraisers they’re exposed when they come into the profession to a body of knowledge. Then it’s agreed that this is what you need to know. If you’re going to be a successful, competent, calm razor on that, then organizations would employ people who had demonstrably, you know, got that body of knowledge because we don’t have that right now because we don’t value it. Oftentimes people end up in fundraising rolls where they’re really having to discover things that we already know.

[00:08:34.77] spk_2:
Yeah, now are we getting better? I mean, there are programs. There are degree programs and including at Plymouth University and the ones I can think of in the US at New York University and Columbia. Um, I think Fordham and those are only New York’s those ones. The ads that I get New York City. Those are only New York City. So there are more programs. Are we? Are we starting to recognize the value of a professional pressure, professionally trained fundraising force?

[00:08:45.43] spk_4:
I think

[00:08:46.92] spk_2:
for now

[00:08:47.34] spk_0:
that

[00:08:47.63] spk_2:
No, no, no, we’re not some

[00:09:17.61] spk_0:
of the some of the programs are varying quality. I mean, there are some good ones, obviously, that one come on by you. And there’s one of Mary’s in Minnesota and I could go on. But the sweet spot for fundraising education is where you got a blend delivery by practitioners and academics so that you get some of the emerging science of doing a behavior that impacts on what people Noah’s. Well, sadly, I think some programs are run entirely by practitioners. So you’re gonna get 1/2 of the equation there on what you’ll get, obviously, their you know, their background in their experience, which obviously has a place. But that’s not the same as being exposed to the modern research findings. That example on social psychology we’re gonna talk about that, could be informing what they do.

[00:09:38.26] spk_2:
Yeah, yeah, you end up with more of the conventional wisdom.

[00:10:02.69] spk_0:
Yeah, we’ve got a You know, I’ve mentioned we’ve got a problem with attention right now. What I didn’t say is that actually getting worse. I’ve just completed a very large scale study in England of six million boner records. We’ve looked at people recruited way back in 2000 and compared them with people recruited in 2010 on their substantively less loyal now. So not only we got very leaky bucket, but that bucket is getting weaker by the day.

[00:10:15.01] spk_2:
Okay, that’s Ah, that’s pretty positive motivation in enthusiastic motivation. Let’s Ah, let’s go out for a break. Adrian and I are gonna continue talking. Of course, we’ve got what What drives donor loyalty and how do you measure it? And the stages of the fundraising relationship? Stay with us.

[00:11:05.39] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As the CPS, for God’s sake. So we know what they do, right? Help with your nine nineties help with your audit. Um, we all are acquainted with what certified public accountants do. So do you need to make a change? Take a look at Wagner. You know, the, um, partner, You know, one of the partners who will be on the show Actually, next week, you each to him, um, started wegner-C.P.As dot com Talk to eat, see if their c p a firm can fit what you need from a c. P a wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to relationship fundraising.

[00:11:08.60] spk_2:
Adrian, let’s jump in and explore what what it is that we know will drive the donor loyalty that we’re trying to reverse the trend of,

[00:12:13.03] spk_0:
Well, the fact is really quite similar to any relationship that somebody might have with an organization. So there’s a lot of learning that we can take from the commercial world that we find it equally relevant to the non profit space on. My guess is that many of your listeners will have the car service recently or they stayed in a hotel or they used the service online. That probably they’ve been asked at some point, tell us what you think of the service has satisfied. Were you with the quality of that experience on these kind of satisfaction that is, in a sense, kind of quite ubiquitous. I think they re home. They’re Big Quintus is because there’s a huge link between her status side somebody with the court in service. There was the on their level of loyalty on people who are very status by six times more likely to come back and purchase again on average, people who just

[00:12:18.14] spk_4:
satisfied. So there’s, um, active behavioral difference on the

[00:12:30.59] spk_0:
extreme of the scale, right? So the goal needs to be for our organizations to get people to the point where they’re very satisfied, actually with the way they’re treated as a donor. Now, the last one I make here is that the multiple in our world

[00:12:43.22] spk_4:
isn’t as big as it is in the trading context. Trading world very satisfied, equates to six times more likely to come back again in

[00:12:59.29] spk_0:
our world doneness. You say they’re very satisfied that the cause your service provided by the fundraising team are twice as likely to be giving a year, then thin people who say they’re just satisfied. So it’s been a massive factor, but the multiple isn’t quite as big as it might be in other contexts.

[00:13:03.72] spk_2:
Okay, um, any any thoughts? Why, that is why I don’t How come we only get 1/3 of the the likelihood of returning the compared to the corporate world?

[00:13:39.26] spk_0:
Well, I think there’s a range of other factors that player in our space that also have an impact on loyalty and retention satisfactions an important one on one of the things I like to do it folks, that conference isn’t tease and then right in the satisfaction is a major driver of donor loyalty which in terms of which in turn, is a major driver of the value of the fundraising database. So how many people actually measure it? Then on if you’re lucky in a room of 200 people, you might get one hand

[00:13:43.69] spk_2:
goes on, then

[00:14:03.46] spk_0:
you are people well out of those folks you know who’s actually remunerated, how good they make their donuts feel on Duh. You won’t find any hands that go with that point that we don’t take that factor seriously enough. But then there are other things that creep in in our world the trust in the organization that some of your listeners might

[00:14:06.60] spk_4:
be thinking God havens talking about satisfaction with a court

[00:14:10.17] spk_0:
service provided by the fundraising team. But what about all that really great stuff we do with beneficiaries? Surely that’s gotta count for something

[00:14:15.32] spk_2:
in terms

[00:14:40.30] spk_0:
of retention and loyalty, right difference that we make Andi that’s true. But for most donors, unless they’re major donors, the mechanism for that it’s trust. If I’m a major donor and I’ve given you five million to put up a building, in a sense, I don’t need to trust you because I can see the building up. Right. But if I’ve given you $50 to help starving child, that I really have to trust that you say you do exactly what you told me you’re going to do with that resource.

[00:14:46.78] spk_2:
Eso

[00:14:47.42] spk_0:
trust for the vast majority of our donors is a big driving factor in terms of lost in the

[00:14:59.49] spk_2:
Okay. Okay, Um and, uh, you know, these sound very much like, not only, you know, relationship factors in a commercial sense, but also in a personal sense. They are our friends and our parents. No loved ones.

[00:15:33.80] spk_0:
Yeah, a lot of these relationship variables are just as relevant toe all human relationships. Originally, this study of things like satisfaction, trust and commitment all came out something called relationship marketing on what that was trying to do is to take ideas from human relationships on applying. In that case, thio the relationships that businesses have the customers on at the core of a ll. The relationship that we have of the emotions of satisfaction, commitment and trust.

[00:15:40.64] spk_2:
No. Anything you want to tease out about commitment? We spent little time with satisfaction and trust anything more. You want to say about commitment?

[00:15:50.89] spk_0:
Yeah, commitment is one of the really big drivers of loyalty on dhe. Usually that comes out stronger than thin. The others I’ve mentioned

[00:15:56.90] spk_2:
on

[00:16:37.79] spk_0:
what that is is a really burning passion to be the mission of the organization achieved. And you can imagine that people who are committed to finding a cure for breast cancer tend to support charities that do that and for extended periods of time. But that real passion to see the mission achieved is one of the really big drivers of loyalty and retention on. So the question, I suppose, then, is well, I had you build commitment. Then again, we know from research Quite a few things helped build commitment that wanted the risk. So if you’re running a shelter for homeless poke and I’m a donut, the organization and I believe that by canceling my gift today, somebody, somewhere is gonna be without a bed.

[00:16:42.95] spk_4:
Tonight I am a bunch

[00:17:16.68] spk_0:
more likely to continue to support that shelter s O. That element that I see a risk in canceling will help drive commitment. So too, will a personal connection. You know, if my life had been touched, my breast cancer, because I had lost a loved one to it. You can imagine that I’d be pretty fired up about finding a cure for that being committed to those sorts of organizations on then. Also, it worthy of note is something I call multiple engagements, and there’s a micro on a macro level to that. The macro level is that people who are donors and campaigners and service users and volunteers and

[00:17:24.21] spk_4:
and wait,

[00:17:25.49] spk_0:
let me get that and

[00:17:26.26] spk_2:
you

[00:17:52.26] spk_0:
get a whopping back, more loyalty and in the micro level is every time you have a two way interaction where there’s a little bit of cognition that takes place, maybe the organization asking your question, What would you like to receive? What do you think about this? How many times do you want to hear from last year? Do you want to get news? Whatever it might be every time you have that to a interaction with water, you get a little teeny, tiny bit more loyalty. And, of course, in the digital space, it’s now by easy toe have those little, many interactions with people, and it’s really worthwhile because ultimately it drives behavior.

[00:18:01.20] spk_2:
Excellent. Now there’s research supporting all this right

[00:18:05.44] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:06.45] spk_2:
I’ve

[00:18:26.34] spk_0:
bean doing work in the not profit space for the best part of 20 years. Now on. We’ve done large scale survey work with probably a couple 100,000 donors here in the States now getting on for two million donors in Europe, tracking the relationship between satisfaction, commitment, trust and then behaviors of interest. Like like you giving next year with assembly of upgrade on even actually leaving a bequest to the organization.

[00:18:39.14] spk_2:
What about that? That’s a significant How is that a significant factor?

[00:18:46.04] spk_0:
Well, one of the big drivers off the single biggest driver, I’d say, Really, the likelihood that somebody will leave a bequest. The nonprofit organization is how long they’ve been supporting

[00:18:57.92] spk_2:
it, Yes,

[00:19:13.50] spk_0:
on and typically find working with clients. I’ll say, you know, we’re gonna have a request program that is, forget all the complicated plan giving vehicles, but just right, asking somebody to remember a charity with a gift in their will or estate documents, then the single to get indicators of willingness to do that is how long people have been. Giving Onda anytime over three years actually is a pretty good indicator that that person cares about you is committed to the cause and therefore will at least give some consideration to that request. So surprise, Surprise. You know, commitment is a pretty big indicator of the likelihood of doing that.

[00:20:15.74] spk_2:
Okay, Yeah. I don’t know if you know that, but know this, but I do plan to giving fundraising consulting, and that’s where we’re always looking for the best potential bequest donors is who are the most committed loyal donors. And, uh, I didn’t know that a CE feu is three years. Could be could be a positive factor, But I’m always looking for Some organizations are easily, you know, decades older, sometimes sometimes even 100 years old. Couple of the universities have worked. So you know, if people have been giving 2030 years or 25 of the past 30 years, they’re, ah, enormously good potential donor for ah, for bequest or some of the other plan gifts to Yeah,

[00:20:39.88] spk_0:
Yeah, I I’d agree wholeheartedly with that it And it’s amazing how very few organizations even bothered to ask for a bequest on if they do. How many organizations think that somehow people will be inspired by the mechanics of death and dying some of the communications regenerate. Thank you. Just

[00:20:43.20] spk_4:
thank you. Make

[00:20:44.23] spk_0:
a will and

[00:20:45.06] spk_5:
you

[00:21:14.01] spk_0:
may change your will. And then the mechanics of the plan giving vehicles were actually You want somebody to give You want to inspire them with a vision of what the future could look like? That people are inherently more positive about the future on so good. Positive messages about what the world might look like that evoke a little bit of emotion are actually a lot more useful in that quest space than technical brochures about how you die miserable.

[00:21:24.01] spk_2:
Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that digression. But it’s it’s what I spend my time doing when I’m not when I’m not done. Non profit radio. Very interesting to going back to the There’s little micro engagements you get. You get a little uptick. You said of of, ah, commitment went with just these small engagement.

[00:22:15.18] spk_0:
Yeah. Um, if you if you would follow my knife on you woulda measure, let’s say satisfaction and commitment. And you sent out a little survey to a sample of your dignity. Our guarantee. If you tracked that sample of people over time, you’ll find that they’re a little, teeny, tiny, bit more loyal than the balance of the database. And that’s the administration of this little bit of cognition. You’ve got a communication from the Red Cross, Let’s say and you think that’s right. I got a relationship with the Red Cross. I’ll go back to them at all. Well, that’s a relationship with the American Cancer Society. Oh, that’s right. Every time you get that little bit of interaction, you get a little bit more loyalty questionnaire getting people to take other actions on your behalf that aren’t related to fundraising. Getting them to participate in an event that you’re doing online are tuning into a podcast or tell us what you think. All of those things are really smart in terms of loyalty. Because every time you have that interaction punch up just a little bit, how loyal these individuals are

[00:22:38.39] spk_2:
not standing. Love this. Okay, um, we need to be able to measure donor loyalty. How Ah, what are what are the metrics?

[00:22:50.00] spk_0:
Uh, well, one of the one of the big issues we’ve got in our sector right now is the metrics are, well, frankly wrong on to be even more blunt about it. I think a lot of our non profit boards need to be taken at Inspector.

[00:23:10.02] spk_2:
Is that a bare bottom spanking or they keep their pants. They keep their pants up. Is it Is a parrot a bare bottom spank with a paddle? Or is this a bare handed?

[00:23:15.19] spk_0:
I think it depends on the degree,

[00:23:21.48] spk_2:
a degree of readiness you want to achieve. Okay,

[00:23:31.37] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, why did I say that? Well, because oftentimes people who serve on non profit boards are actually quite bright. Oftentimes they had very successful business careers, and that’s one of the reasons that they’re there because they’re plugging in their advice as well. On it’s almost as if they part their bring that side the boardroom before they go through and into the meeting.

[00:23:43.69] spk_4:
Because in the

[00:24:42.74] spk_0:
commercial space, they know very well the measure customer lifetime value and they understand what that is. And I understand why it’s important they understand to the merits of measuring the things that drive customer lifetime value. So that’s why you get the satisfaction. So people measuring commitment and saw you walk through into the non profit boardroom and suddenly somehow all of that knowledge and understanding they had get forgot on. The only metrics we’re interested in is how much raised this part year or month. How many did you attract? Andi, you know, don’t start the metric that short term thinking doesn’t help you think about the lifetime value of your database and you And that was fundraising. That sub optimal. What you end up with this fundraising that is content to recruiting donors on, then lose 70% of them between the first and the second donation. That complete kind of focus on short term measures get people to the point where all they do is chase the short term measures. So we’re going to continue to try and find you Don’t.

[00:24:53.67] spk_2:
No, you don’t.

[00:24:55.12] spk_4:
We’re gonna continue

[00:25:18.04] spk_0:
to try and maximize how much money we could get those spokes. Actually, what we need to do is to take a step back and say, you know, maybe we should be measuring the things with Dr Longer Term or Lifetime Dahlia on beginning to reward our fundraising with the quality of the relationships that they build. Ronda van, you know, the dollars and cents that they raised yet today,

[00:25:22.31] spk_2:
okay.

[00:25:35.58] spk_0:
And immediately you do that, you get a huge change in culture because suddenly what people are interested in doing is building relationships, not having that sort of burn and turn way, haven’t

[00:25:44.95] spk_2:
you? Must have a lot of examples of what we should specifically be measuring in our our fundraisers?

[00:26:01.29] spk_0:
Well, I would if it were me. I would be using some of the same things that the commercial world have been using for 20 years, so I would measure satisfaction commitment on trust. Andi, you know there are measurement scales to doing that. It’s a little survey. You track how people feel

[00:26:22.94] spk_4:
on. If you do that, it’s the It’s the margin of those measures that makes the difference. Remember, I talked earlier about the percentage of people who were very satisfied, very satisfied. That’s the important bit. It’s the extremes of those scales and changes in that that make the difference on the

[00:27:24.83] spk_0:
good news is that even small improvements in loyalty in the here and now translate to a whopping improvements in the lifetime value of the fundraising database. So if I can improve the level of retention by 10% in the here and now, I can increase the last time value of hundreds in database by over 50%. Why? Because the effect compounds over time. So if you’ve got more donors left at the end of this year, you’re gonna have even more the following year. And even more than you know the year after that. For many organizations, that’s not the end of the story either, because most organizations lose money on donor acquisition just to go out and keep finding lots of donors to replace the one we lost that he knew a lot of money on. If you factor that into my equation, my little improvement in loyalty in the here and now of 10% would improve the lifetime, deliver hundreds in database for anything up to 100%. You

[00:27:25.02] spk_4:
can make

[00:27:25.54] spk_2:
a huge

[00:27:26.40] spk_5:
just

[00:27:28.03] spk_0:
by having little improvement in loyalty and hearing that.

[00:27:52.10] spk_2:
All right, um, I wonder if we can drill down to ah, more micro level in terms of the measurement of the performance of our our fundraising staff. Um, are there are there individual metrics and me in terms of how how they have moved donors from one stage to the other or, you know, in terms of the the actual performance of the fund raisers themselves or their metrics there.

[00:28:31.04] spk_0:
I think, I think, the answer, that question. We depend on the form of fundraising that you’re looking at on. So the metrics will be different depending on when it was dark. Don’t nail dot response or someone like Major Get Andi made. You get officers that remunerated to for the amount of money that they raised. But they’re also remunerated for the amount of time it’s been in front of clients. The member of proposals they made the number of recognition events there. Kendall. All of those good things. Um, but one of

[00:28:49.59] spk_4:
the things I think it can be shared a causal. The forms of fundraising is have a good do we make our donuts field today on measuring that that quality of the relationship, And that does come back again. The satisfaction commitment on dhe trust in the dark spot space. I would also be saying, you know, we should be taking decisions about

[00:28:55.77] spk_0:
investments on the basis off

[00:29:28.04] spk_4:
donor lifetime value on DDE. What that means in your complaining the issues that if we’re going to invest in an acquisition campaign we’re no gonna assess that campaign is a success simply because we bought in 200 donors on a lot of 100 donors because it may be that most people were recruited, won’t come back and give again right that we’ve gone with the other alternative campaign. We could have run, you know, we only recruited in 100 donors, but actually, most of those people stayed giving for the next five years. So taking

[00:29:53.24] spk_0:
longer term decisions based on that lifetime value, I think is really smart and even in small organizations that may behind a little difficult to do some of that matter. Maybe because they’re working on, even like a simple Excel database or something, they can still be looking at things like Retention Lee on beginning to shift the focus of the way in which the team is remunerated to the level of loyalty that’s engendered now. If you can also measure the things that drive loyalty, that’s great. But if you can’t, then the starting point for me is at least to get a sense of the health of that program and the health of relationships that just by you know, the numbers of people who were still actively engaged in court.

[00:30:24.90] spk_2:
Agent. I love the idea of measuring how donors feel of, um all right, we’re gonna come back. I need you to hang out for a couple of minutes while I do a little business. Don’t go anywhere, Adrian. Just Ah, just, uh, just keep listening.

[00:32:09.45] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software Quote We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with software, but they are always there to help walk me through it. End quote. That’s Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. More raves about their customer service. Don’t take it from me. Take it from the ticket from the customers. The user’s You got it. They have a free 60 day trial, which you will find on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s Take two and your planned giving relationships. Yes, the thing I like most about planned giving. It’s the relationships and being a consultant, I have a lot fewer of these donor relationships than I did in the ah back in the years when I was director of planned giving. But there are still some and and instead of having them and enjoying them personally. I sort of enjoy Maur a greater proportion of them by Karius Lee by coaching clients, helping them to build these plant giving donor and potential donor relationships. You know, these were talking about America’s elders, and they have stories that are touching and scary. Um, historical, Uh, you know, it’s a They have a different perspective because it’s different generation and you can you can just you can learn so much. They’re in a different phase of their life. They’re more relaxed. Mostly, um, it’s, uh, yeah, the relationships. It’s very touching, part of a plan giving program, and I go in even more detail. And I’ve got a story or two on the video, which you will find at tony-martignetti dot com about planned giving relationships. And that is Tony’s Take two. Now back to relationship fundraising.

[00:35:00.59] spk_2:
I gotta send live listener love. I want to shout you out by city and state, but Sam here is having board the back end problems or something more talk about spanking or in the back end again. Um, we can’t see you by city and state, so I know that you’re out there New York, New York. ST Louis, Missouri Boston, Massachusetts New Bern, North Carolina, California I know there’s somebody in California listening, probably San Francisco, but I know there’s a California listener. Those are the live Listen, love people the loyal live a look that loyal, live listener live. Um, that I know her out there love, of course, to all the current live listeners and going abroad. I know there are listeners right now in Tokyo. Konnichiwa, I know we have listeners in China and Taiwan because we always do Ni Hao And I know that South Korea is checking in because it does week after week on Yo Hoss, I Oh, now, in case we are ah, in ah, in Mexico, we’ve had listeners in Mexico. Buenas today’s The Czech Republic occasionally does check in Dobre den Germany. We occasionally get Germany. Guten tag. Okay, I think that covers Ah, the most frequent live listeners. Sorry, we can’t do you No city and state as usual. We will get this back end problem slapped and slapped. Ah, and fixed by next week. Gotta send podcast pleasantries. Never forget the podcast listeners, Whatever it is you’re doing painting your house washing your dishes at whatever time you’re listening. Whatever activity, whatever device, over 10,000 of you so grateful pleasantries to the many podcast listeners and affiliate affections to our multiple multiple AM and FM stations throughout the country. Listeners from the Finger Lakes in New York to Salem, Oregon, and lots of states in between affiliate affections to our many affiliate listeners. Okay, Adrian. Sergeant, thank you so much for holding on. I have Thio have to acknowledge all our all our listeners of whatever ilk and variety they come. They all get a special shout out. So thank you for your patients. Um, we have ah, I love these measures, but we gotta move on. Let’s let’s talk about the different stages. You’ve identified stages of the donor relationship and there are different strategies appropriate for each. First just please just lay out the but the, um, the stages are, and then we’ll come back and revisit.

[00:35:37.96] spk_0:
Well, there’s an awareness stays where people become aware of the organization. For the first time on exploration plays, people begin to kind of extra what the relationship might might mean for them on. Then you’re kind of deeper into the relationship where there begins to be an element of commitment. And then eventually, over time, you know, some relationships will come to an end. Of course not. Everybody’s gonna continue giving for forever. But what we don’t know how you treat different points in that journey can make a very big difference. Unsurprisingly, how loyal?

[00:35:42.01] spk_2:
Yes, and especially knowing that these micro engagements make a difference in loyalty. I going back to that because I admire it so much. I love it. Um, okay, we have a few minutes we can spend, you know, on each of the stages. But help us with awareness what’s going on? And what should we be doing to give our donors what they’re seeking at that stage?

[00:36:12.32] spk_0:
Well, at this point, I suppose we’re talking about people who haven’t given for the organization before. So we’re talking about individuals that you’re trying to list it, too. Get them to make a contribution for the first

[00:36:19.24] spk_4:
time on one of the things I say about fundraising in

[00:36:44.67] spk_0:
generally that some of what we generate is is really bland on. If you want to get people to give, you want them to give reasonable sums of money have to make him feel something. Logic leap to conclusions. Emotion leads the action on fundraisers. Don’t want conclusions. Progress this far in large one people take action.

[00:36:47.53] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:36:48.02] spk_4:
And so you’ve

[00:37:14.00] spk_0:
got to get people to feel something you’re gonna stimulate them to give to your organization on dhe. Too many particular kind of Sunday letters in this country. You know, a bland three or four paragraphs might inspire somebody was on the cusp of making a gift. Could, you know that’s not gonna happen. You’ve got to generate materials that Helen emotional story

[00:37:18.46] spk_2:
and telling

[00:37:19.42] spk_0:
a stipulate that all important.

[00:37:22.33] spk_2:
Okay, okay. Emotion. Um, it’s very intuitive, but we still see a lot of ah, bad practice out there.

[00:38:10.51] spk_0:
Yeah, way. Still see a lot of those very bland one page letters signed by the chief executive, maybe even a picture of the chief executive when Actually, there’s a lot to say around the nature of the cause that could be compelling. I’ll give you one example of a pact that’s doing the rankings again. It’s been around for years, But Amnesty International, they sent out a flat pain attached to a piece of card with a picture of somebody whose eyes have been gouged at on the strap line effectively says, What you hold in your hand is an instrument of torture when you read to your horror that actually why this person’s eyes against that is because some somebody somewhere in the world used the pain on this youngster Thio get guided either. And it’s horrible when

[00:38:23.39] spk_4:
you when

[00:38:38.46] spk_0:
you read it and you’re outraged. And of course, the pen can also be a mechanism for doing something about it. On immediately, I get youto feel the anger or feel the compassion for that child I talked you into the court was you understand why what I do is important at that point. And are you more likely to respond and make a gift? Of course.

[00:38:47.75] spk_5:
On you know, there

[00:38:48.92] spk_0:
are lots of other examples we could talk

[00:38:50.30] spk_2:
about. That solution

[00:38:51.55] spk_0:
is absolutely critical to getting people to get for the first time.

[00:39:01.27] spk_2:
That’s a brilliant one. Well done. Ah, Amnesty Bravo. I give you

[00:39:29.87] spk_0:
one other from kidney research in the UK. Um, there was a cent a pack that told the story of a little girl who has kidney disease on very likely won’t won’t live for many years. On the letter that was contained with the picture of this little girl was actually a letter from her kidney. Two little Katie apologizing for the fact that you know the kidney is not able to do its job

[00:39:32.83] spk_2:
and heart

[00:39:33.64] spk_0:
rending little

[00:39:34.22] spk_5:
store.

[00:39:56.08] spk_0:
But, you know, when you read it, you’ve given a real strong connection to that little girl, and you feel the heartbreak that her parents must be going through and immediately you do that. If you’ve got kids yourself, you get that lump in your throat when you think my goodness, you know I have to do something about that because that’s horrible. I don’t want the little girls like Katie not be heard, not be able to have the operation in the care they need.

[00:40:01.96] spk_2:
My okay. Uh, very touching. Let’s go to AA exploration. What’s happening there?

[00:42:35.84] spk_0:
Well, at that point in the relationship that they’re kind of getting to know you stage that’s taking place. Andi, I noticed now that there are a number of charities playing very creatively with three D communications s o, you see people less in the U. S. But another part of the world Act on shopping malls and high streets with three D headsets so that people can experience what it’s like to be in a school in Botswana, what it’s like to be in a hospital in northern Nigeria or wherever it might be in the world. So you can sort of transport people away for a few moments to be able to see the work that’s being done on the ground. I think those things are quite powerful here in states of one international aid organization that does that great powerfully with trailers, and it’ll take a trailer to a community. Then you can go inside that trailer and you can walk around a school in the developing world, and you can see the country experiences of those kids having so thinking in a very creative Ryan back. Taking people inside the cause, I think is really important don’t necessarily need to involve the latest technology. Certainly video pictures that take you into that world, I think very important on The other thing I would say at this point, is that you might begin to creep some choice in to the kind of relationship that you’re having with individuals I used to. When I was teaching this 20 years ago, I’d say, Well, it’s awful People choice from day one. So you you allow people to choose whether they want a hard copy newsletter Oh, our digital newsletter or no newsletter, but appeals or whatever since realized that it’s smarter to wait just a little bit until people get into the relationship so that they can take smarter decisions about actually what they want. Because if you ask me from Day One Adrian, do you want a newsletter? Then a green is almost certainly gonna say no, right, because newsletters sound boring, and I’m probably not gonna want that. But if you wait four or five months into the relationship, how regular newsletter? And actually I’ve realized that this is really quite moving or you know, the information that there is compelling and uninterested. Then I’m all like it say no. Actually, I’ll continue to receive So giving people a little bit of choice of the communications is a smart thing to do in relationship fundraising

[00:42:41.70] spk_2:
ago.

[00:42:42.22] spk_4:
But I

[00:42:51.20] spk_0:
would begin to creep that Emma’s. The relationship begins to develop over time, and I’d allow people to identify the kinds of things they want in the frequency.

[00:43:12.38] spk_2:
Okay, we’re gonna go out for a break. I have to mention then that the people who attended your early programs did not get the got screwed it better. Better to come to a later Adrian Sergeant presentation or Webinar. If you were doing Webinars back then, probably not know. 20 years ago, there was no there was no web. But But you get checked the guy out now because he’s learned from his own his own research. All right,

[00:43:19.01] spk_0:
Probably by the time I know exactly what I’m talking.

[00:43:23.65] spk_2:
Yes, that’ll be brilliant. Okay, there’s gonna be a gonna be a nursing home. It’s gonna get great great pro bono advice from you. Okay, let’s go out for a break. Adri and I will talk about the next stage commitment. And then we also talk about next steps for you and for Adrian’s research. Stay with us.

[00:44:13.09] spk_3:
It’s time for our last break. Relationships. Do you want journalists to know you so that when news breaks, they call you for the expertise they know that you’ve got turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and get all the media to heart you right? That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. When the news breaks, you want to be called, or at least have your calls taken. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for relationship fundraising.

[00:44:48.41] spk_2:
Um, I won’t let you know that you can get this research at pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising pursuant is one of the funders of this research and thankfully, through their sponsorship, I met Adrian. And, uh, we’re getting this enormously wonderful value on today’s show. So thank you. Pursuant. Thank you, Adrian. Welcome, pleasure. All right, let’s go to Ah, now we just have, like, five or six minutes left. So we need to be a little efficient without time. The next stage commitment. What’s what’s happening there?

[00:45:02.81] spk_4:
Well, in commitment, you’re really beginning then to build up that strong relationship bond with the supporter.

[00:45:08.35] spk_0:
One of the things I would be doing much earlier on at the point

[00:45:11.52] spk_4:
of acquisition, actually to gather information about the sorts of things that the individual is interested in. If you’ve got a nonprofit that has four or five different kinds of program, or I think that is going on. I’d be asking them early on in the relationship which of those things they’re particularly interested in? Because if I do nothing

[00:45:27.25] spk_0:
else that I’m gonna make sure that when I’ve got something going on in one of those spaces that

[00:45:41.94] spk_4:
they’re interested in, that they know about it and have the opportunity reported being respectful of people’s interests, I think is a particularly kind of key thing and building that commitment.

[00:45:43.48] spk_2:
Okay. And that on bat comes back to some of what you were saying about giving people a choice.

[00:45:54.08] spk_4:
Yeah, if you understand why people are supporting the organization that you know that that’s a powerful thing you can then use to shake the communication where they’re gonna follow.

[00:46:16.68] spk_2:
Okay, By the way, I created a false sense of urgency, but not deliberately. When I said five or six minutes, I was alone. We have more like nine minutes left, so don’t you have an extra three minutes. So take a nap and ah, and then we’ll pick up after a three minute nap. No, um what else we got You can laugh openly, so I should hope you Please weigh. Need somebody to be laughing,

[00:46:22.77] spk_4:
thinking that my students would probably appreciate

[00:46:30.40] spk_2:
you pass that on to them, but do it at the end of the class. Do it at the very end of the class. Um,

[00:46:35.39] spk_4:
yeah.

[00:46:40.95] spk_2:
Okay, um, anymore. Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:53.48] spk_4:
If I pick up on on the nation of commitment, I think one of the other things that people possibly don’t realize that came through from my report is that the value that donors get from the

[00:47:06.36] spk_0:
relationship shifts a bit of the relationship deepens. So initially, when you’ve got that really powerful emotional packed communication that you’re not gonna use, people are really interested in the impact on the beneficiary write all about. Did you do what you said you were gonna do

[00:47:24.93] spk_4:
and have no impact on that child’s life? Well, as the relationship deepens, the donor becomes at least as much concerned about what impact on the child. I mean, for my sense of who I am

[00:47:29.88] spk_2:
on.

[00:47:35.07] spk_4:
I think you know what we’re talking about. Then it’s something that psychologists call identity, and I think that’s gonna be the next big thing in fundraising because

[00:47:42.94] spk_0:
it’s a little different from understanding the motives that people have for supporting it. The motives for supporting little Katie

[00:47:48.57] spk_4:
and her kidney operation example. Identity is a bit different. Instead

[00:47:50.59] spk_0:
of what motivated used to support the organization. That stage you’re asking, what are people saying about themselves when they give? So what kind of person are they saying they are when they support

[00:48:05.83] spk_2:
my non profit Adrian York? Let

[00:48:05.97] spk_4:
me understand that

[00:48:07.45] spk_0:
we can begin to shape our communication to make them feel good about that being that kind of

[00:48:48.80] spk_2:
Gen Shang, your colleague at the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy, C E N T R E was on was on non profit radio talking about something that this makes me think of, Um, she had research from public radio when people would call in to public radio to make a gift. They were greeted with something along the lines of thank you for being a kind supporter or a loyal supporter or a generous supporter, and she had different adjectives and and tested different adjectives against outcomes and particularly among women. The right adjectives would increase the the women’s giving through through these phone calls. Does that sound familiar to you?

[00:48:58.47] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And what you’re talking about there, of course, is one kind of identity. You’re talking about moral identity.

[00:49:04.53] spk_2:
Okay,

[00:49:11.25] spk_0:
so, you know, a lot of giving might be because I’m saying Adrian is a moral person. I might also

[00:49:11.83] spk_4:
be saying I’m a father. I’m a parent. I’m a cancer survivor. I’m a patriot. I’m

[00:49:21.38] spk_0:
a liberal I’ma environmentalist. I’ma, i’ma i’ma. And when you understand the identity that’s being articulated, then you make people feel good about that, right? Because if they’re gonna give, when they’re that kind of person, let’s Let’s tell them it’s good to be that kind of person and give him the kind of content that really reinforces that I don’t see it makes him feel good.

[00:49:37.85] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:49:38.31] spk_0:
Remember we said earlier in this conversation, I think one

[00:49:40.77] spk_4:
of the things we need to

[00:50:27.43] spk_0:
do moving forward if toe worry about hitting the need of our beneficiaries so sure that we could be at least is concerned with how good we made our donors feel today on one of the keys to unlocking that is to understand what they’re saying about themselves when they give to our organization and what that support of us really means to their sense of who they are. And I was saying that the relationship deepens people away to what that really means for them and who they are. On dhe, we start to be looking for a relationship. So the time to meet some of our higher order needs. And by that I mean connected personal growth, self fulfillment,

[00:50:28.51] spk_2:
Yes,

[00:50:52.96] spk_0:
what has my support, my five years support of your non profit organization, say about my personal growth and had connected? I am with people that are important to me where I am incomes of myself fulfill it. If we start to think about right, that’s where our longer term supporters are. Maybe we can help them make some of those reflections on feeling better about their support of our organization is actually where we communicate across more than any other sex. Er, we should really be concerned with maximizing how good we can make our supporters feel.

[00:51:11.60] spk_2:
Okay, Adrian, I I have to stop our our substance because we gotta move to next steps and we just have a couple of minutes left, and I want to get to both parts of this. So what can a non profit do with this wealth of information?

[00:51:39.28] spk_0:
Well, if you visit if they visit the pursuant website, they’ll be out of download a copy off. There are really two key volumes to the to the research. One is lessons from relationship marketing. One is lessons from social psychology on. They could trial some of those ideas for themselves and their fundraising. So that’s the most obvious thing that folk might be to do at the end of the court. Go to the website, have a report, anything there?

[00:51:50.51] spk_2:
Okay, and again that it’s pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising. That’s where you’ll find the four volumes. But Adrian, you’re recommending the 1st 2 as being most valuable. Sounds like,

[00:52:02.01] spk_0:
uh, that they’ve certainly covered most of material we talked about today,

[00:52:05.94] spk_4:
okay, and there’s

[00:52:09.87] spk_0:
a lot of other ideas from social psychology. The other thing that might like to do if they’re in an organization that of a reasonable size, we’re planning on doing a serious of field experiments over the next two years.

[00:52:20.70] spk_2:
Yes,

[00:52:37.59] spk_0:
we’ll work with a number of non profit partners on blitz there. Don’t find it too. 1/2 would continue to get the communications that they get now. The other half would get communications that bean tweaked in some way to help build up relations.

[00:52:39.91] spk_2:
OK, very quickly. What type of organization are you looking for?

[00:53:04.72] spk_0:
We’re looking for organizations that have groups have donors that are above 600 people s. So we’re not looking for organizations that are necessarily massive that we’re looking for. Organizations that have a reasonable number of donors in each of the segments they want to study on will be willing to work with a bearing the cost of doing those experiment.

[00:53:07.43] spk_2:
Okay,

[00:53:07.76] spk_0:
we’ll get the impact of that relationship approach on money raised on how good people feel.

[00:53:13.36] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, excellent. Getting to the feelings. Uh, what’s your email address? If people would like to submit their organization or talk to you more about being on in the research,

[00:53:31.63] spk_0:
it’s a green dot sergeant a d r i n dot s a r g e a n t at Plymouth y m o u t h don’t a c don’t you Kay?

[00:53:42.26] spk_2:
Excellent. Adrian, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much. So much valuable information thank you. Cheers.

[00:54:03.42] spk_3:
Next week, you’ll each tomb returns with how to select your auditor, and Jean Takagi will be with us in the studio. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Bye, Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producers.

[00:55:15.64] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this cool music is by Scotts. Dine with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, huh?

Nonprofit Radio for March 16, 2018: Date Your Donors

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Jonah Halper: Date Your Donors

Jonah Halper is author of the book “Date Your Donors.” He wants you to enjoy the full breadth of fundraising relationships. He’s founder and partner of Altruicity consulting. (Originally aired 3/4/16)

 

 

 

 


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Oh, hi there. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with logar mania if you talked to me about the idea that you missed today’s show date your donors. Jonah helper is author of the book. Get your donors. He wants you to enjoy the full breath of fund-raising relationships he’s, founder and partner of altruicity consulting and he’s with me for the hour. This originally aired on march fourth twenty sixteen on tony’s take two new relationship videos responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio and by weinger sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps dot com tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream durney dahna may slash tony tell us let’s get started with jonah helper and get your donors. Jonah helper is author of the new book date your donors. He wants you to enjoy the full breath of fund-raising relationships he’s, founder and partner of altruicity consulting and he’s with me for the hour. So glad to welcome jonah helper halper halper back to the studio has been a guest before. His new book is date your donor’s he’s, a non-profit marketer and fundraiser with over ten years of experience specializing in new donorsearch acquisition and engaging gen x and wires. He’s, founder and partner of altruicity consulting. They’re at altruicity dot com. The book is at gate, your donor’s dot com and he’s at jonah helper already chuckling. Yeah, welcome back to the studio. Welcome back to the show. I haven’t thrilled in here. Thank you so much. Good to see you. Good to have you here. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. How did you get to the concept of dating and donors? So i started doing ah, training fund-raising training a couple of years ago. And i just found i started using a lot of dating analogies that was very natural on daz. I started tio go down that rabbit hole of discussing, you know, how fund-raising is is akin to relationships in courtship and attraction and things along those lines. I started to think about about my career as a fundraiser, and i noticed that there were even even the people who, you know. Classically trained in fund-raising and, you know, had the experience, some fundraisers were unbelievable at the craft, you know, there’s some fundraisers who, you know, we’re okay, they’re mediocre or they were just, you know, kind of putting in the time and they’re doing the kind of, ah, the best breast practices of the business, but there was a clear line between those who were the born fundraisers or seemingly born fund-raising and those who weren’t and i started to wonder why that wass and it wasn’t something you would able to see in a resume, it wasn’t something that was just, you know, you can look and see their track record and see why that was the case. It was experiential, like i would interact with these people, and that was it was kind of like an use of cool, like, it was just like you would be around them and you would be, you know, wanting to be around that would be attracted to and as that started to take shape, i started teo kind of more put, ah, structure around it to say, what is it that those type of people have that makes people want to? Be around them as a fundraiser or as just a human being. And, you know, one of the interesting kind of correlations i found was it was very someone of my high school experience, which is you, weren’t you were you were not so cool in hyre i wish i was on the other side. But you know what it wass is i went to a boarding school, all boys, a tremendous amount of testosterone. And basically, you know, the need and the desire to be on the in crowd was the most important thing to make. Yeah, i i spent so many waking hours just trying to figure out the chess moves that would take me to be in the inner circle. And what it did is it drove me further and further away. I became like the hanger on ah, and i thought i was i thought was a cool guy. I thought i had, you know, certain skills. I thought i you know, i was in a terrible ballplayer. Like the things that were important to high school boys. I was a terrible ballplayer. I i got my my varsity letter in announcing oh, i as one step below cheerleaders, annan varsity letter ship. So, i mean, i dealt with these things with a sense of humor and a nem barris ingley a large number of times. It would more be people laughing at me then with me. Right, which only, which only further perpetuates that downward spiral. Yeah, three guys, a joker reason he’s the jester. But he’s not, you know, it’s. Not even always laughing with them. Like i said so. All right, so i dealt with it. That was my athletic outlet was announcing right there and managing rights to carry soccer balls on and off the field. Make sure nobody was on the bus on time. So you’re announcing a managing in-kind of understandably why, you kind of self selected into certain kind of career. Yeah. Now, now announcing right for myself. Exactly. I’m not shepherding a bunch of high school kids on a bus on then announcing touchdown. Thie irony. The irony is i knew any i still know nothing about sports, right? I mean, i have trouble distinguishing football from baseball. Well, so have a great fundraiser is that you can talk intelligently on any subject for about two and a half minutes, lord, help you. If they want to have a deeper dive in texas well, two and half minutes they’ll be laughing that will be actually laughing at me. But i football is the one with the field goals, i think. Yes, yes. Your baseball has the three pointers. No, basketball is through your basketball to report. Okay, so so the irony was, you know that there’s somebody whispering what? What to announce almost exact my ear. Oh, that’s got a touchdown. Touchdown number fourteen that’s? Uh oh, yeah, here he is, steve berman, who was a friend of mine. I couldn’t remembers number, but that’s how i dealt with my awkwardness and oppcoll snusz so? So where i’m going with this is is that i found there were certain kind of character traits of that of that high school kid who seem to be the center of attention. And then i found that things don’t really change from high school things like yeah, i know i don’t i hope i’m in outlier and that in your theory, i’m an aberration. We’ll know what it does is it way kind of grow into a lot of the things that we are lacking in high school, high school, you’re just naturally you’re trying to figure yourself out there’s not necessarily the confidence there, you know, there’s a discovery that’s going on there so it’s not a natural thing for you kind of say, this is who i am, these with skills i bring that confidence that’s kind of grown over the years, but that what i’m alluding to when i’m kind of referencing now is the fact that confidence and clarity whether whether it’s real or not on the high school level, right, that perceived confidence is something that people are attracted to, the fact that you say i know who i am, i know what i stand for. This is what, whether for good or for bad, this is who i am, people want to be around people who have that who have the kind of that confidence say this is what we stand for. This is what i’m excited about. This is where i’m headed, and i want you to join me and confidence and clarity or a couple of things that were going to talk about yes, because as you’re suggesting, those are traits of good fundraisers. Those those outlier fundraisers that are at the at the high end? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, cool. Uh, what’s. So why don’t we go out a little early for a break right now? It seems like natural place and we come back, we will dive into the details of date. Your donors stay with us. It’s. Time for a break pursuant. Their newest paper is demystifying the donor journey. They want you to be intentional. Deliberate about stewarding your donors so you don’t lose them. This is very much what jonah and i are talking about today. Same subject different take pursue. It will help you create and fine tune your donorsearch stewardship plan paper is that tony dahna slash pursuant radio now, back to date your donors, jonah helper. My guest. We’re talking about his new book date your donors. Um, you want to start with authenticity, and so ah, this is where i was not so authentic in high school, but i believe i’m much more authentic now, but sure, authenticity a great trait for fundraisers. Yeah, you know, it’s it’s interesting. Because when you are in the business of raising money, you’re interacting with a lot of people. Who are high net worth who travel in certain circles? Have a certain lifestyle, it’s easy to kind of pander to them and try to say, you know, i want to be on the inside so i can get money from them. That’s the kind of at the perspective especially young fundraiser has is how can i get into this this network? And what i was when i mention before and when i think applies when it comes to authenticity, is andi also packaged in the non-profit, you know, jargon of mission and vision, the idea is that you should know what your folks what you’re standing for there is a few of my jonah helper and working with a special needs charity, and this is my my job and my mandate and what i’m raising money for. I’m not jonah helper, mr country club. I’m not jonah helper, mr poker player, you know, hanging, hanging out with with these individuals, they may become friends and that’s fine, and they may become my network, but i’m coming to them not underneath the guise of being a buddy of being one of their friends just being part of their network, but rather, i’m coming through the through the lens off my mission, what i’m in the business of doing, where i’m headed with this, what i hope to accomplish with my mission and how these individuals can be a part of that experience in a way authenticity is not me trying to fit into their world, mohr them trying to fit into my world, and and that requires me not to be focused on myself, right? And i know what i am, what i stand for, but rather interact with them, and then hopefully they see what who i am or what i stand for, that authenticity, what i’m really in the business of doing, and they’ll gravitate today, and they’re hopefully attracted to it, right? Not metoo them but them to me. So let’s, break this down because you’re talking about authenticity of the person and also authenticity of the organization cracked. All right, so let’s, start with the person. This is where we get to confidence, you know, you you want yeah, yeah, you just don’t want people to be molding themselves to what they think, the donor that they’re meeting that day or that our wants them to be right. But be true to yourself. Well, they’ll see right through that in there is if you’re the type of person who’s going to be mike mission creep like, you know, you know, i may be the business of doing this well, but you’re excited about that. Well, let me chase you down there about you know, about that that i know what i’m in the business of doing this is who i am, what i stand for that person’s a hedge fund, you know? Ah, man or woman, i am a fund-raising professional for this organization. That’s what i do know this is who i am and what i do if the if the stars align and they’re interested in what i’m doing, they’ll support it. If this is not of interest to them, it is not a priority for them if it’s, you know, not meant to be it’s not meant to be, but the moment i start chasing people down this, then i’m effectively being that kind of aggressive door knocker to say, you know, give, give, give me, me, me, i i and that’s why i don’t want to be playing now, but what about when you get into situations like you’re meeting with a donor and we get into a political conversation or something religious, you know where you’re your stars are not aligned with theirs, you know, maybe you’re different political spectrum, different into the political direction, then they are how do we how do we stay authentic? So it’s? Interesting, because i’ll give a kind of ah kind of case in point, you know, there’s some people who use social media, where there’s like a clear demarcation line between the personalizing, the professionalizing we’ll have, this is my missing my business account like this is my business facebook this is my organizational facebook presence on this is my personal place facebook president and never shall the twain you know me that that is not my approach. My attitude is my my priorities, my belief system, you know, what’s important to me what i don’t think it’s important to me is as much ah factor in my relationship with these individuals than than anything else. The fact they may not agree with me politically, or the fact that may not agree with me what it is, then that’s that’s their prerogative, but at the same time, it’s nothing to do with the mission vision might cause i think mature people can make that clear separation between what is relevant, teo, the supporting whatever the good work that i’m doing other educational, humanitarian or are you know, whatever it is as and what jonah helper you know, does on his on his free time now, there’s importance of someone being trustworthy and having credibility and respect and you can ruin that by what’s going on in your personal life. So there is absolutely a certain amount of of measure that goes into what you’re doing. Discretion, yes, absolutely absolute discretion. But because people look and people see and if you want them, if you want them to give you their money and to trust you with their money to accomplish a certain good, if they think that you are not a trustworthy person because of the way you live or your reckless in some way or form, then that obviously is going to hurt you on the business side. But i think that things that are whether it’s politics or religion, you can agree, be respectful and you can agree to disagree and i don’t think that will ah, bill deepti, be a deal breaker. In fact, what i find is that when people know jonah helper father for jonah helper, you know, his religious level or his political involvement that just shapes me as a person, and i find that the people who have become fast friends within become my donors are people who become friends and in a bigger way than just, you know, thank you for your check, and i’ll keep your loophole. You’re good how the good work is, you know, playing out it’s become more friends, i think a good example that is, when i had, you know, a couple of my last children, i would get presents from some of my donors because it was clear that i wasn’t just fundraiser was jonah halper, of course, you know, help her father. Father? Yeah, yeah, so that s so there’s, of course, abounds there, okay? And i see that playing more now in our presidential election year i politics come up more in conversation that with donors, potential donors when i’m with clients, then you know, then even just six, six or eight months ago, if you’re too highly spackled like if you’re like, you know what i mean? Spite i i was like, like, mr clean jeans, there’s no power there’s no depth to you outside of your job, people are not going to find a way not going can connect with you, there’s not gonna be that human connection because your justice, you know, tom aton doing the work of your organization and you’re not a human being. So i think i think those other things that add flavor, not color and deep in the relationship, obviously again with certain amount of discretion depends on how you live your life. But but, yeah, i think that’s so important people realize who you are as a person and even not just as you’re, you know, you mentioned social media, but just in conversation, you know, you don’t have to be the raging donald trump or bernie sanders fan. You could be respectful of the other person and say, you know, you know, o r, you know, maybe you don’t even need to in a conversation say what your aspirations are and who you hope will win just oh, you know, okay, yeah. He’s cool or hillary’s lullabies finite. You know, matt, i see points in her, and most people are not going to say who do you stand? Who do you want? You know, they’re not going to challenge that way and that’s another thing also is that when there is a conversation where you want this is that you have a position or you feel strongly about something, i think that if you’re open minded person or healthy person, those those conversations can be interesting without devolving into, you know, for violence. So i think i think that you could you could have those conversations, and just by virtue of the business, you have those conversations because you could be at a country club, you could be on the golf course, and you’re not talking business for ninety percent of the time you’re talking family talking politics, you talking religion and time all the things that everyone talks about. S o yet you have to be kind of present and in that experience and be really yeah, and you want to get beyond the small talk? Yeah, you make the point that your donors, you know, we’re looking for common ground, so we start conversations often with weather right? Because everybody shares that. But, you know, if that goes on for more than like a minute and a half, i start to get antsy way got to get further than the weather, and they know why you’re there like there’s, no qualms that the reason why you’re in their offices because they talk about the mission in vision of your organisation, what you hope to do and why you need their money. So it’s it’s not like you pulled the wool over the eyes. We’re talking, you know, baseball and the next thing you know, we’re talking money. They know why you’re there so it’s just a matter of of guests making the connection, finding the connection, whether it’s through friends, your common connections, whether it’s, tio shared interests, whatever case, maybe, but they’re expecting the having a deeper conversation about what you’re doing, and they respect you for what you’re doing. You know, this is that was this is the business that you chose to be in your raising money for a worthy cause and making wonderful impact. So there’s nothing to shy away from its not fund-raising is not a dirty word here a lot. Of these traits, but all of these traits, or that you’re seeking in fundraisers, can’t be hyre ascertained from a from a resume, and you mention this in the book, too, that that, you know, it’s a personal business, you want to meet people before? I mean, obviously there’s gonna be a personal interview, but you don’t find resumes, a very valuable tool for recruitment, basically what i’m saying, right? I think i think in general you’ll find word of mouth is always the strongest, you know is whether you’re looking for new business or whether you’re looking tto find their best people. Companies around the world have wonderful policies where there’s incentives if you refer people to the company and they get a job there for existing employees. There’s a reason for that? Because if you’re willing to put your reputation on the line to bring someone in who you think would be a good fit for the company, then that then that person has a better chance of being a good person as opposed to just another resume and an inbox so there’s absolutely value ah, stronger value and sitting in front of somebody and interacting with them. In a in a real way to be able to determine if they’ve kind of got the personality and the kind of the gumption to do the work and do the fund-raising i needs to get done that you will never be able to get by just looking at a piece paper. Yeah, how poised are they right? Right? I mean, you might think, well, you know, the interview is an artificial, um, environment and there’s high stress, you know, for the interviewee, but so is fund-raising i mean, if you’re meeting a donor for the first time, that’s a bit of high stress, a potential donor for the first time, actually, if i could show a quick story that i think way don’t really care way stay in the abstract, i don’t know i love no, we love stories. All right, so it’s interesting. You say that you know, it’s high stress experience interview process. When i got my first job, i met with i want to like a job fair, for it was for the jewish federation system, which is like the united way for the jewish community and it was a national it was the national umbrella. Organization that hosted this job fair and there must have been twenty different cities represented the had their own local jewish federation, and i went to this Job fair is super green 20 year old kid, i did not even know what i was applying for. I was like, i want to help the jewish community that’s all i knew, i didn’t know fund-raising know anything on i start interviewing for all these jobs called campaign associate? I thought political campaign no, no campaign means fund-raising so i didn’t know that when i was interviewing, but i’m all the interviews that i had, there were what you’ve described grilling me, you know? What would you do in this scenario? And then you’re at an event and this happens, you know, a lot of that kind of stuff. And as someone who is new, that was jarring. I didn’t know even what to proud of process that what the right answer was this is the wrong answer. There was one organization there representing one federation there from baltimore, maryland, with me who ended up becoming my first boss kind of ruin the punch line there, but he didn’t ask me any. Questions about fund-raising or non-profit what would you do in a difficult situation? Not none of it. It was. What books do you like to read? You like wwf wrestling? Or is it calling out? It was all of this random stuff, and i sat with him for forty five minutes, and we just, like, talked and at the end of the forty five minutes there’s, like, all right, we’re done, and i was totally confused because especially in context of all the other interviews that i just had, this one was like, like, he was, like, wasting my time. Yeah, i got to call backs. He was one of them and i ultimately went to baltimore ended up starting my career in baltimore for three years there, and i finally mustered the courage to ask him. Obviously, once i have the job because i want to, you know, scare amount of hiring me, i said, you know what? Why did you hire me? He said, you have a nice smile, you carry a good conversation, the rest you’re going to learn on the job, and that was very powerful because that was him sitting across from a and saying is he a nice guy? Does even nice smile? Is he? Is he great interact with? Because that part is harder to teach the art and that’s the part that you master that from high school is a part that i like god it’s trial by fire? Exactly. I got that out of high school, but that was something that was a lesson that i’ve taken with me since then to know that you were a you hire the right person not to fill a position where a lot of the other ones were, they were looking to federals phil position, and they’re trying to determine my skills if i was good for that position, but rather he said, here’s a guy who i think has potential, i’m going to hire him and i’ll obviously augment the position to be right for him and b he was looking at me for my potential here’s, somebody on dh what i was able to present on the emotional and the human side, the science of how to go out there and raise money. I had no doubts the twenty year old kid you could learn what do you like it? Outstanding so so you had clarity, you were you were clear about who you were. You exuded confidence, no doubt and and and led to the hyre yeah, okay, all right, what are the traits? What else do you like to see in individual fundraisers before we get to that? This clarity of organization around mission and things like that? What else do you like to see in a fundraiser? So, obviously, you know, one of the one of the most important ones is, you know, and they often they they even say it on resumes on a job, but descriptions is, you know, self starter, but i want to dive labbate deeper in that idea of being that kind of entrepreneurial person to get out there and create new relationships, because when you are an entrepreneur, whether you work for a big company organization or you are on your own, a fundraiser is somebody who has to build their own network. If you’ll come into a new city or a new organization, you’re not necessarily hopefully, you’re not just picking up the dozen are one hundred donors that already giving you’re going out there and raising new money, and that requires you to be a self starter to say okay. Where are these people? Who would be interested in supporting this cause? How do i get introduced to these individuals? How doe i interacted them? How do i stay in touch with them? And all those kind of skills require you not sitting on your couch eating bon bon. Sorry. If that’s your approach, then it’s not gonna work if you want to be sitting behind a desk. It’s not going to work, you have to be somebody who enjoys the thrill of going out there and and making those contacts so that’s that’s one of them, you know, main things that i that i look for, somebody who has that kind of drive to kind of get out there and make it happen as if you’re building your business. Because you aren’t your house. You’re building your network, your own proverbial roll independent for your business, it’s, for the good of the mission. Exactly. All right. So let’s, go to the organization side being being clear and confident on the organization side because we want to be successful in our dating relationship with our donors. Come, you want a clear clear statement of mission. Somebody like you like eight word mission even right? So that’s a lot. A lot of you know, the consultants who will help the organisation shape their mission has to be concise. It has to be super concise. You know what you could share with somebody on one floor trip up in the elevator, right? It’s? Really? What? Who are you? What? What? What’s the organization. And if your job is tio and malaria deaths done, we’re in the business of ending larry desk. You’re not waxing poetic about how you’re going to do it and buy what deadline you just want to be able to say mission is what you’re in the business of doing. So you should be able to clearly say, like you said, you know, eight words or, you know, one sentence, this is what we’re in the business of doing. The only thing you might claire qualify it with maybe his location like right ending malaria deaths, west africa, right, right. That’s tied to your containers? Yes, exactly. If you if you are central africa and that’s your job and that obviously is in their mission statement. Absolutely. But again, it’s. Not going on about, you know, your values and the vision for this it’s just clearly what you’re in the business of doing much kruckel sip of water because it looks like your first thing. Andi, i will suggest that we talked about so the mission you have some examples of missions in in the book, remember? I mean, charity water is very brief form, so i’m obviously a big fan of charity water. They bring clean water to basically to the people in africa and, well, it’s interesting they limited to africa and it’s a whole nother conversation about the scope of their vision, but they do of many, many different villages in central africa, on some other areas as well, but basically they are fund-raising organization and the fund water projects on the ground, so they don’t actually drill themselves. They have organizations on the ground doing the drilling, but they are a fund-raising organization that funds those those well projects, and they’re one of the organization has a very concise mission statement. Yeah, a lot of them dio i’m trying to think it was your forjust certainly particularly well, no, just that was one example you cite. Some of the books so people have to buy the book way can give the whole book about paige, expect this only non-profit radio this’s not provoc radio should expect you should have high expected. Yes, but we can’t bring you all two hundred rich pages. Yes, of data. And i would have come with a list of the mission statements prepared. Dahna okay, after mission, we’re moving to our vision. Yes. Now we’re getting a little more detail. Yes. So so and when you talk about vision, obviously i’m doing it through the context of dating and relationships. You know, vision is where you’re headed. So when i talk about dating when you’re dating for a purpose, right, you’re looking to find somebody who can spend you know, whether it’s rest your life with our meaningful part of your life. The idea is to find somebody who wants similar things, as you, you know, using the dating analogy. Do they want to have children? Do they want to live in the city or the suburbs? Do they want to be? Yeah. Primary breadwinner. Both, you know, both working whatever the case may be. But these air important conversations you have when you’re dating someone seriously, where we headed together is unit because if you’re not on the same page of one wants children and it’s important to him, and the other one doesn’t want children that’s probably a deal breaker, so so, you know, the correlation to fund-raising is that i am and discovered that in my first marriage kayman oh, there you are, bring i could bring some case study in on the way outside our competition advice to se eso eso eso when i was so when you’re when you’re doing the fund-raising business cerini fund-raising business and you’re and you’re looking to get someone to support your cause, you’re not supporting your cause for what they are. It is now right? You’re not we’re break, we bring clean drinking water to central africa that’s not the case that’s gonna get someone open their wallet, what’s going to get them to open the wall is this is where we are now, but this is where we’re headed, and if they buy into the idea of where you’re headed, then they’re going to support you. So if they like, if they see that vision of your organization is the white picket fence with the dog and the tire swing, then they will support you. They’re not here to fill holes or to cover your gaps in your budget. They want to know that you are a viable organization and you have some great things in mind and you’re headed in their group great direction. So that’s, what i talk about vision and through the dating perspective is the idea that you’re selling somebody on where you’re headed. We need a break. Wagner cps, here’s an excerpt from their latest testimonial quote, they’re accessible, they care about their clients end quote, can you say that about your accounting and ordered firm? Go to the site weinger cps dot com, check out their credentials, check out their clients, then you know how i like to do it. Pick up the phone and talk to you. Eat huge tomb regular cps dot com now time for tony, take two. I’ve got three new videos, all on the same subject. Build your grantmaker relationships that may sound familiar to you. It was on the show a month ago that was february sixteenth. Now it’s in video repurposed you see different format and perhaps you learn better by video that’s possibility. Although then you’re probably making a mistake listening to non-profit radio audio podcast. If you learn better by video, then you’re wasting your time right now. Right now, this minute, the second that you’re spending this thing to me right now. Right now. Now, this one right now, it’s wasted it’s wasted, squandered, um, or maybe just a little interested in video, but you also like audio so let’s go on that hypothetical because otherwise you would’ve turned me off already. And then you’re not even gonna know what the videos were about because you already shut me off ten seconds ago. This is what the videos are. They are three versions of the panel that i moderated at the foundation center. We have the full version. That is roughly ninety minutes. There’s the broadcast version roughly fifty minutes. That’s. What you heard on the show back in february and there’s the executive summary, which i pared down the whole ninety minutes to about ten minutes. Chopped it. But you know, executives, you know, they never get we all know this, right? The executives never know the full story they don’t get into the weeds. So if you want the executive summary, you can have it for about in about ten minutes, but do it do so at your own peril? I would say there’s lots of good advice from this panel for the foundation center. You remember it, you know it was a couple weeks ago, but in case you want a fuller version, you know, then you got the link to the ninety minutes. If you want to hear the broadcast version again by video for some reason, maybe you learn better by video, but let’s not get into that morass. Anyway, i got videos for you, and if you wantto, if you want to refresh your recollection that’s a that’s, a term of art in the law, by the way, refresh, you’re talking to a witness and you give them a writing, a paper and that’s used to refresh their recollection. It would be admissible just for that purpose. So if you want to refresh your recollection, then maybe you want thea the broadcast version or the executive summary. Let’s see this? Those of the panel is on grantmaker relationships and we are going to continue with that. We continued with that the following week, some losing myself. So if you if you ah phew, like if you come in and out of the podcast and is only some you listen to some you don’t you want to know that grantmaker sze we talked about twice there was this there was this panel from the foundation center that i moderated, and then the week after was, um, john hicks from d l b remember dylan’s like bull picks, so if you are interested in grantmaker relationships, you feel like you’re not doing well in grantmaker relationships, you’ll want to check out the videos and also that show that was that followed with john hicks. All right, we’ve got my video with links to these three versions of the video that is at tony martignetti dot com. Now let us return to jonah helper, the wise and the wise and experienced jonah helper and date your donors. Okay, jonah helper. Thank you for your indulgence, sir. Hey, you do you freely with ntcdinosaur provoc? I think i actually attended. Not last year, the year before that, and it was amazing there was yes, it was. I had a first all they had, like, big band on stage. You’re talking about twenty fourteen. It might have been twenty. Forty, right? Yeah. I had a fantastic time. It was and it was in california. It was in san francisco that year. I loved it. I mean, they were great. The organizer’s there were we’re fantastic. Yeah. Okay. I think that was twenty. Thirteen. Twenty fourteen. Was my first one there in washington, d c okay, so they alternate east, mid and west sametz been so twenty three years ago. Yeah. It’s a it’s a lot of smart people, they had a big band on stage. It was i mean, it was heaven enchantment, and it was like, well, i wasn’t expecting that andi conference in general gave me that kind of flavor. It was with the sessions or great, the people in the hallways, you know, i always love the hallways, the hallways of the best because that when you meet, you always meet the best people in the hallways. Sessions are good because you can hear the training and they’re in their and the great sessions, but there’s nothing better than being able to just bump into somebody and find out they’re doing amazing work, and it could be a small church in virginia, and they’re doing phenomenal things that you could apply to your organisation in some, you know, specific instance, i love that, yeah, that kind of randomness on dh and the ntc, the non-profit technology conference did that for me. We were talking about your organization and and its mission and vision statements, and you also want, you know, you want organization to be clear about who their primary customers are and not two morph into something that you really don’t belong doing or being with or, you know, again being true to yourself, being say more about that. Yeah, so so, you know, make a good story that i heard from my friend nancy lublin, who is the founder of dress for success, and was then chief old person of do something dot orgryte, which is thine engagement. So the fact that she was, you know, not a team made her the old productions on crisis text long theo, of course treyz his text leinheiser heard one. She started well shouldn’t start do something, yeah, but she might as well have started because where i’m going with that story on dh, everything she touches turns to gold and that’s, not luck, i mean it’s, she is a a tour de force. I mean, she is unbelievable, but the story that she she shared with me was that when she came to do something that or go it was a centres was a brick and mortar centers around the u s where teens we could get involved, and it was founded by melrose place actor shoe, and it was andrew shoe his name was on and it was it was a floundering organization. They were having a major major problems, and they were presented when she came aboard with an opportunity for i don’t know where the dollar amount was my been two hundred fifty, three hundred thousand dollars from the company that that said build a teen center near our call center like near, you know, our operations and, you know we’d love to have a teen center over there. And nancy, as the new ceo of the organization of deuce of do something that orc sa declined the money and an organization that is starving for cash. Yeah, so it it seems to be like, you know, like, what are you doing? You know, your new new new kid on the block here on dh you’re turning down this money and when she brought her into the offices or, you know, in in our offices, she sat down with the leadership in legends like, how how badly do you want this job? You know, your seemed to be kind of walking your way out of it and she said, you know, you need to trust may because this is not the future of do something that i do something right, forget the dot org’s it’s not future of do something to have all these brick and mortar, you know, places for students to kids to come together, it needs to be online and she after that point shut down all the physical locations, took the whole thing online, rebranded to do something as do something dot or ge and and is now getting forget the corporate dollars that she turned away the two hundred thousand tens and tens of millions of dollars they get and primarily comes from from companies so arab hostile will partner with them for teens, for genes. They found that homeless teenagers the number one thing that they wanted were a pair of jeans. Why? Because i don’t have to be washed every day and its owner’s homeless, he doesn’t have access to clean clothes, a pair of jeans are cool enough, you know, generic and cool enough that you could wear and where without having to clean them every day. And that was something that homeless teenagers wanted, and they partnered with aeropostale for kids who had no better privilege to donate their genes threw in the store. It created a tremendous amount of foot traffic into air apostle, and that was vow valuable to them, the co-branding was strong, and it turned out to be a wonderful partnership, and they’ve just replicated that that kind of model of companies adopting programs, supporting their their their operations, it they have done tremendous amount, because so your point they were focused on the mission of, of serving young adults who want to volunteer, and it was not going to be a brick and mortar place. It was going to be online and because she was paying attention to that and not the dollar, she was able to take this organization which was floundering, and make it the powerhouse that it is today. And that she’s now entrusted in the hands of the other time the chief operating officer, aria finger she’s, now the ceo of do something that oregon are on ours, but on non-profit radio toy. So there you go as ceo and as ceo. And then and then they spun that off because, yes, okay, i said yes, because our online they’re able to serve millions and millions of teens like five million’s i mean, they have, and they have this big treasure trove of data. Yes, about teen engagement and know how to engage them in issues. I think they’re think their sweet spot is, like sixteen to twenty five or so. And then beyond twenty five, they used your primary money is coming from companies. Big data or data is so important. So because that’s the case then, like, you know, think that something that you mentioned earlier about how nancy level went into crisis text line that was born out of the fact that they were getting texts, emergency tests, tech of young adults who are suicidal, we’re getting abused or things along those lines and as an organization as there to help people, what do you do with that? They weren’t equipped, they were equipped. And then they found the typical the standard nine nine eleven was not going to be able to handle us, especially for the digital age where people are going on their cell phone and there more comfortable hiding in the bathroom on their cell phone and texting somebody on emergency, they needed to do something. So that kind of stuff has outgrown has grown out of do something dot or ge and that’s? Why, you know, have crisis tax line? So it is there’s so many wonderful examples that you can see where, especially in their story, where they straight stay true to their mission. And if it wasn’t if if if emergency texting was not right for do something dot or ge, they didn’t just, like, expand the mission to fit under, do something out or they made it crisis that’s now a new organization, nancy’s now the head of that, and that was a new thing. It wasn’t like mission creep and now we’re doing, you know, we’re solving another problem. They started a new organization with all focus on your primary custom. Absolutely cool. All right, after we’ve started this relationship, we need to keep it going. And you call this i don’t have a name. That chapter was somewhere you say from lust toe love s o the analogy, the relationships going off you’re so so we all know this and in our in our our own relationships, you know, your boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it is at the early, early part of the relationship, this tremendous amount of lust, right there is the attraction it’s, new it’s, fresh it’s, exciting and that’s so important because that is going to be, you know, the chemistry needs to be there that’s vital to the success of meeting new people and starting to develop a relationship with them. But it needs to mature right in there is if the relationship is only on that’s. The part i missed in high school. Yeah, the maturity and the whole thing. And during the last night, i had a lot of lost. But you know what to do with it all i’m in the same boat, my friend. S o so yes, so so that that has to mature. So if you get somebody to become a donor of your organization shin right, they may be enamored and they might be a beautiful organization. You could be a charity water you could be, you know, do something that or go any of these clauses that are gorgeous. I mean, they they look gorgeous, their offices a gorgeous they just have got that locked down, but it needs to mature. And it was the relationship with them needs to be more than just face value and it’s not just i’m excited to be part of this, you know, sexy organization. It needs to mature to say, look, i’m a partner. I’m somebody who’s not just early part of the job. I’m a partner. I’m in this for the long haul. I want to help them grow, whether it’s capital improvements, whether it’s, you know the infrastructure, whether it’s special projects, whatever the case may be, i want to see this organization grow from where it is now and where it’s headed. And that means that the relationship needs to mature where they have a greater stake in the game. And that means lino much like in our own personal relationships, where we might do certain milestone things, like move in together, there needs to be that kind of advancement, that kind of moves management and to use, you know, fund-raising jargon to take that relationship from one that’s courtship and maybe a first gift to now increase that support over time. Part of this is a plan. So when you have, we need to be more structured maybe then are in on our dating side and our our relationship side. But we need stewardship plan, basically, what belongs in our stewardship. So i like to talk a lot about new donorsearch accusation because, you know, you mentioned if you have something as a donor and you want to keep one of the chapters is called, keep the fire alive, right? So that you want to put some good practices in place. You know, i talk about there in the in charge of keeping the fire alive and latto kind of moves that move that relationship along, that you should treat someone like an investor or treat them like family right now, or and and and and while it may sound like that’s ah, dichotomy that’s outside the investor way investors or relationships, right? Are you treating me like, like, a business transaction or so the nice thing is that it’s not mutually exclusive because what happens is in your relationships, there are absolutely expectations. If you if we decide tony, you and i decided we’re going to move in together, right? What? We have a wonderful relationship. We love each other. We have a wonderful relationship. We want. We’re going to move in now, and we’re gonna have it going to take it to that one. Quote. Next-gen metoo do this by the way, if your way, my wife, my my feelings in indianapolis. So nobody listens to this show so you don’t worry about it. Word getting out exactly right. Good. We could talk after, okay. So, so if if we want to take that to the next level, is there anything truly different about our relation with each other? Do we love each other anymore? The moment that we are now in the same apartment. No. Right. There’s? No inherent change. That happens between the way you feel about me and i. Feel about, you know, the decision that we’ve decided with it. What we have done is we’ve increased expectations on each other that there’s a certain kind of shared life now that we have that’s more than we had before because we’ve said that this is a priority cubine dark commitment deepen our commitment. So now, now that we’ve deep in our commitment, i am now have a certain level of responsibility to you, right? You have there’s a certain level of investment that i’ve now made, right? Then i know how to manage that’s, like just know if i move in with you and i lived like a single person, right? I don’t care about your feelings. I know it was anything of the week before when we weren’t living together. It was any behaving the same way. But now that we live together, i have a new set of standards that i have to abide by, and it’s me and it’s mutual, right? You have expectations toe on me. I have expectations on you and that’s. Not a bad thing. It’s a it’s a healthy thing, but what happens is i need to meet those expectations. So if i wanted if i if you’ve given me something, if you give me money a cz a fun as ah someone who’s going to give money a donor and i take that money. The relationship starts that right? It’s not thank you for your gift. I’ll speak to you next year. It’s. Now that i’ve taken your ten thousand dollars, i have a responsibility to you to make sure that you know how your money is being spent. Oh, so this gets to our city. Our stewardship plan? Yes. Oh, starts appointed stewardship plan is that when i get to give, when i when i get money from a donor it’s, not just another box to check off and say okay, i got this gift. I got to go get another fifteen or twenty other gifts. Tto meet meet mike. Now, how are we going to right this should how so, how do you really take this? And deep deep in that relationship so there’s everything from leadership roles. There’s these opportunities when it comes to getting them to open up their own home and their own network a lot times people think that if you ask somebody to do favors for you favors going, quote, like open their home for a party meeting or to give your cause that’s burning equity that deepens relation because e-giving to you. So finding ways to cement leadership positions for them to spend more time in your offices. And when i mentioned treating like investors and treat them like family, why should they only have a relationship with you? Right? You are representing an organization, there’s. Some other wonderful people in the office is it’s. Some of the best donors and leaders i know come into the organization and they say hello to everybody from the person at the front desk to the person in the mail room. They know everybody because this is their family now. So those types of opportunities that ways to kind of systemized that are important you could see in the book the whole bunch of suggestions for that. All right, we’re gonna go further. We gotta take a break. But don’t go a little more into this idea that asking people asking donors and volunteers to doom or is not burning them out. It’s deepening the relationship and not doing that could burn them out. So stay with us, you got to take a break. Tell us the credit card and payment processing company. You check out the video at tony dahna slash tony tell us and that is going to explain that long, long tail of passive revenue that you can enjoy when the companies that you refer joint tell us. And you, the non-profit earned fifty percent of everything tellers gets the video. Is that tony dot m a slash tony? Tell us now, back to jonah helper asking people to do more. Yes, whether they are donors or board members, this is not typically does not lead to burn out. What leads to burnout is give me your your annual gift. And now give me your annual gift a year later and a year later and there’s no substance beyond you’re giving, right, right. So the so let’s talk about i want to take a cold pill that back little bit. Because i think a lot of the fear of asking people to do more comes some of the fear of asking in general, especially asking for money. You know, fund-raising is not a dirty word. And i know so many professionals and leaders. In the business of consultants, talk about how it’s not a dirty word, but i kind of tied into the relationship side of things in the sense that when you’re asking for money from somebody, if it’s devoid, if it’s void of a relationship, right, if we’re just asking and you’re dialing for dollars it’s, it’s, it’s taking the relationship out of it and it’s just making us and no one enjoys all transactions for that and no one loves that no one likes to do that that’s terrible when there’s a real relationship in that leads to money it’s beautiful and obviously you can hear the correlation between like sex and relationships. If it’s just mechanical and there’s no relationship behind it, it may be fun. You may get the gift let’s not underestimate great, but but my point is this is probably not going to be a sustainable long term strategy. You’re not going to get somebody that may give you one time, but it’s not going to be a capacity gift. They could probably give you a lot more than what they’re giving you and you’re and it’s not like there’s any relationship behind it, so if you’re if you’re going to go after those easy shots like that, then you might get lucky, right? Teo? But but in the end of the day, if you if you develop a real relationship than the asking for money, is the exact opposite of a negative experience is the most powerful, empowering, beautiful next up in that relationship that makes people go? Yes, i’m i’m in this i’m in this relationship, i’m in it for the long haul. So it’s it’s kind of it’s kind of that double edge sword where fund-raising could either be a terrible, terrible experience, transaction transaction, a wallet with legs, right? Yeah, you know, it’s the sex appeal of just the fact that they have money versus somebody who’s, a partner partner in the cause and he’s excited about the vision and wants to see that succeed and right on dh wants to do more than just give exactly you’re not going to know that until you start asking, even if it’s just give it’s done in the context of i am partnering with you and the way i’m doing, doing my share is by giving you money because if you’re going to be on the ground drilling wells or curing our ending malaria deaths or, you know, providing needs for special needs children, i’m not as a donor, i may not be the expert on how to do that, but i know if i give you money and i trust the experts, it will get done and that’s fine, they built, they’ll become a partner in dollar and that’s fine, but it’s not a transaction, it’s more than that because they they are bought into the vision of the organization, all right, on a part of getting people to buy in and having them feel insiders is sharing the occasional downside failure. Yes, i’ve seen i’ve seen the good, bad and the ugly on this. I’ve seen organizations that are afraid to share information with their donors on day worrying about it. It’ll burn relationship, and those tend to be the relationships that were never strong to begin with. But the there are wonderful examples of how failure or you know where something did not work and it may not be, you know, gross of, you know, abuse or are you no mistrust think some things just don’t work and you know you put your your organization on the line, you try big things and it doesn’t pan out it’s a wonderful opportunity to deepen the relationships. Okay, i’ll give you ah, quick story example, i was in scott harrison who’s, a ceo and founder of charity water in his office, and he was telling me about early on and charity water before it was like, the very sexy, very sexy that, like what it is today hey told me early early on, he had a couple people on staff on payroll, they were doing their first projects, and they were going to go by that it belly up, they did not have the funds for payroll, they they were really desperate, and scott told me that he sent out a number of, like, blow, you know, emails to people who are in his periphery, you know, just to these donors and basically say, like, i need help, i need help, we’re in trouble, we’re doing great work, it wasn’t just like, you know, bail us out was like, we’re doing amazing work, but we’re in trouble. And one individual guy named michael birch, who was the who’s, a tech entrepreneur hey was the founder of bebo, which is a british base like social network from the nineties, like i bought by, i think, a well for eight hundred million dollars and he’s done not numerous projects that also brought in a lot of money, but here was a guy, michael birch on dh. He responded to scott and said, i’m happy to meet next time i’m in the new york area, i think he was in san francisco and he meets with with scott and scott in-kind of bears, a soul tells, tells him everything going on and, you know, they’re doing great work, but it’s just not catching on. They’re breaking their teeth and it’s just not happening, and michael birch gives him some recommendations gives him some advice, and then he says, i’ll see what i can do, you know, as faras giving you a little help, so he goes home. I don’t know how many days it was, you know, whatever was in the story that scott told me, but scott told me that he was sleeping in bed and his phone went off. I know texts or phone call, but was from michael birch and say, he said i sent you some money. I’m wiring it to your account. I hope it helps, and skye trembling opens up his bank account and there’s, a one million dollar gift that was sent from michael birch to charity water. And that was that trust that michael had, and he was really kind of like the one of the first major donors that they had that kind of went all in on them. He was somebody after hearing the troubles and tribulations, but was bought into scott harrison, who is, you know, the personality, come on, the mission that he stands behind and said, this is something i want to support, and they turn that negative in a tremendous partnership into this day michael and his wife are huge supporters of charity water. Everybody is not perfect in ceo land. You talk a little about flawed characters. Yeah, because because with this natural, you know, things don’t always go perfectly. We might even make mistakes. I mean, that that was not a mistake, that scott sure that’s got made, but but things don’t always go perfectly, and we know that from our personal relationship characters in history succeed. Yeah, i mean, so we all know this from our own personalized ships, you know, sometimes you date somebody, it doesn’t work out, and it goes down in flames, sometimes amicable, sometimes it’s definitely not their, you know, whatever it is, whether it’s dating marriage were human rights. It’s the human condition um so in the nonprofit world it’s true as well, we don’t have, you know, perfect relationships, and there are times where you butt heads with a person that you’re involved with a lay leader of volunteering your organization, and you might no longer be the right person to have that relation with them might be somebody else. It might be something that you can work with them and see through tio, but the communication and like any relationship and i talk about in the book about commune importance of communication, you can either work through it or if it’s, you’re not the right person to either find somebody else. If they are bought into the cause, if if it’s the cause they care about, they might be ableto be kind of handed off to somebody else. And if it’s destructive, which sometimes, you know, a fraction of the small fraction of the relations are and it’s not in the best interest of the organization for them to be aligned with his lay leader donor evan, if they give a lot of money and it could hurt the organization, you gotta cut your losses and pull out so there’s. Absolutely. Ah, whole spectrum on relationships and how you handle them. Depending on what’s the best interest of the organization. We’re gonna leave it there. The book is date. Your donors did your donor dot com and you’ll find jonah he’s at jonah helper. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Congratulations again on the book. Oh, thank you for having me next week. Continuing this theme with your intentional stewardship plan. If you missed any part of too today’s show i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio red jersey piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com and tell us credit card payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Durney dahna may slash tony tell us our creative producer is claire miree family boats in the line producer producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. 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