Tag Archives: compensation

Nonprofit Radio for February 21, 2020: Hiring Your Audit Firm & Equitable Compensation

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My Guests:

Yigit Uctum: Hiring Your Audit Firm
When it’s time to change your auditors, what do you look for? And how best to work together? I talk through the relationship with Yigit Uctum, a partner at Wegner CPAs.



Gene Takagi: Equitable Compensation
Gene TakagiIs your compensation schedule fair? What does that mean and why should you care? Gene Takagi returns for a full discussion. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group.




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[00:00:14.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week. It’s Debra Elizabeth Finn in Boston, Massachusetts. She shared non profit

[00:00:28.99] spk_2:
radio with her group, Mission based Massachusetts. I’m always grateful to those of you who share the show. If you do, let me know. I will shout you out as

[00:00:38.00] spk_1:
well. Many thanks, Deborah. Thank you so much. Congratulations

[00:00:45.00] spk_2:
on being our listener of the week. I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Roman. Is, um if you poison to me with the idea that you missed today’s

[00:00:49.97] spk_1:
show hiring your audit firm when it’s time to change your auditors, What do you look for? And how do

[00:00:55.96] spk_2:
you best work together? I talked through the relationship with you. Eat each tomb, a partner at wegner-C.P.As

[00:01:09.51] spk_1:
and equitable compensation. Is your compensation schedule fair? What does that mean? And why should you care? Jean Takagi returns for a full discussion.

[00:01:11.77] spk_2:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law

[00:01:47.61] spk_1:
group. And he’s in the studio. Authorities take two planned giving relationship stories were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software, Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. I’m very pleased to welcome back to the show and to the studio you coach Doom. He’s a partner at wegner-C.P.As

[00:02:06.41] spk_2:
with over 13 years of experience. He works exclusively with tax exempt organizations. He oversees Wagner’s Form 9 90 nationwide preparation practice and leads their New York City operations. The firm is that wegner-C.P.As dot

[00:02:07.94] spk_1:
com. You know that And at wegner-C.P.As. Welcome back.

[00:02:12.68] spk_3:
Thank you for having your back.

[00:02:13.94] spk_1:
That’s a pleasure. Stand a little closer to the

[00:02:15.72] spk_2:
mike so we can hear you. Yes. There. Thank you.

[00:02:18.34] spk_1:
Um, getting from Madison, Wisconsin.

[00:02:21.16] spk_2:
Thank you. How cold is it? There now is pretty called people.

[00:02:26.03] spk_3:
When I left, it was like like 10 degrees. I don’t know. I don’t pay attention after I leave. Okay.

[00:02:32.36] spk_2:
When it gets below 20 does it matter? And it

[00:02:35.14] spk_3:
doesn’t matter. What

[00:02:35.93] spk_1:
Can you tell that between 10 and zero.

[00:02:38.90] spk_3:
I can You can’t. The marginal difference it is called. It’s

[00:02:42.71] spk_2:
just all called anything

[00:02:45.12] spk_3:
below one of the state f

[00:02:47.84] spk_1:
in cold. Okay, um, so we’re talking about the audit relationship. So first of

[00:02:50.63] spk_2:
all, what? What goes into What are we asking an order for him to do before we get into how to hire them. What is it we’re expecting from an audit?

[00:03:20.94] spk_3:
So, basically from an audit by the professional standards, you expect someone independent to go over your and simple terms like, I’m gonna get technical, go over your accounting records and internal controls, overcome over financial reporting and basic issue. Their opinion based on their all its procedures bedroom, not your financial statements are fairly stated in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles.

[00:03:30.63] spk_1:
Yeah, I know. And

[00:03:31.50] spk_3:

[00:03:31.62] spk_2:
don’t have my college accounting class.

[00:03:58.16] spk_3:
Yeah, absolutely. And based on the audit, he also expect some recommendations like they don’t have to give one, but ah, that the relationship is auditors have the expertise working with similar organizations and know the best practices. And if they identify any weaknesses in your systems, they’re also required to report that. But in addition, they also make recommendations as evaluated service.

[00:04:01.79] spk_2:
So it’s much more than just a numerical analysis. Absolutely. You’re talking about going into processes, trains, accountability, etcetera,

[00:04:10.88] spk_3:
right? Absolutely. Yeah. We going to accounting systems, looking at the system’s looking, get who’s involved in certain procedures and what controls are in place and everything. So

[00:04:24.65] spk_2:
meaning board members, senior employees going into those depends

[00:04:27.80] spk_3:
on who were working it, like really small organizations that may be one person organization. Then he would want board the moment as part of the internal controls. If the non profit is large enough, they can have the internal control environment between the organization but typically organizations. Most nonprofits. They’re off a certain small size, and you you want some board government’s involvement in Internal Control says Okay,

[00:05:01.30] spk_2:
and then and then these recommendations. You’re saying that’s based on having done hundreds of audits of similar type organizations. You could make some recommendations, give advice about I could be doing some things better. Absolutely there. I guess they’re okay, but you could be doing things will smarter,

[00:05:14.40] spk_3:
like doing it more efficiently or doing it a little differently and again like that can be some best practice recommendations as well as some recommendations to address certain weaknesses in the internal control system. So that can be two different things.

[00:05:30.04] spk_2:
Okay, so it’s so It’s like including business practices is we’re

[00:06:16.49] spk_3:
losing business practices as well, so we’re not required to his auditors to look at certain things. But people expects us to look at things, even if it’s not part of thought. It se RV makeover some insurance invoices gonna required to make sure that they have enough coverage for certain things. But that’s something that, based on looking at it, such as like external fraud coverage, like looking at the today’s environment. Barry People’s a concert, getting hacked and everything. You may have an insurance policy for cyber security. Let’s say it may cover up to $10,000 with a $5000 deductible. Well, that’s not really very much money, exactly. So if someone, then the may look at that and maybe recommend that you know you may want topped us a little bit by paying just a little in premium. Say another 100,000 premium, you increase that coverage from 110,000 or something like that.

[00:06:29.20] spk_2:
Okay, Okay. So I mean there’s so there’s lots of different areas you can just

[00:06:32.48] spk_3:
a little bit.

[00:06:33.64] spk_1:
Okay. Um, so we have a couple

[00:06:39.89] spk_2:
of minutes before our before our first break? Uhm, why don’t we get into the, uh

[00:06:42.11] spk_1:
oh. I do want to ask

[00:06:43.00] spk_2:
you how long is an audit process that’s based on the size of the farm? Really?

[00:07:00.19] spk_3:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. On the duration depends on how responsive each part iss basically so and so it can very quickly

[00:07:02.05] spk_1:
doesn’t have to be done on site or

[00:07:48.06] spk_3:
it does not have this day and age like out of organizations keep records electronically and it can be them through video conferencing, teleconferences and looking everything online and just document sharing. Yeah, and and absolutely and out off times, man. Dorrit is done on site daughter. They’re sitting in a conference room. Email the client email E Glendale back. So it’s like, you know so. But it’s face to face is good summits depends on preference. A cz Well, so are some people prefer it that pay and there’s advantages and dissidents just off face to face, like onside auditing versus virtual Auditing one is flexibility, but the danger is the order can direct longer if it’s totally virtual. And if both parties will not commit to the timeline. So,

[00:07:53.24] spk_2:
yeah, the timeline and document sharing like responsiveness,

[00:07:57.83] spk_3:
but it does not have to be done on site.

[00:08:08.83] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Cool. Um, all right. So we got another minute or so before before break. And so I So let’s start to get into what we’d be looking for in a firm, and then we’ll go more detail after our parents just want to be looking for

[00:08:16.64] spk_1:
I think

[00:08:48.37] spk_3:
the number one thing, that’s the most important thing. The expertise and experience. You want a firm that is capable off doing the audit. They have experience working with organizations that ah, have your the same needs. You may be operating under a separate federal grant. Let’s stay and on everything is different. Like just because an organization is a non profit, it doesn’t mean they’re doing the same things. They don’t have the same requirements. I think number one thing is to have the expertise toe do the audit. Okay,

[00:09:03.48] spk_2:
so that’s interesting. Like if your revenue stream is different than a similarly sized organization than the order is going to be very different. You’re saying if it’s your old federally funded versus revenue for service is

[00:09:05.10] spk_3:
or purely foundation

[00:09:10.11] spk_2:
foundation. Okay, so the different character of revenue not just don’t base it on they do audits of organizations that have 20 employees. And that’s about what we have, so that

[00:09:20.17] spk_3:
I know it’s all different. Okay,

[00:09:22.83] spk_1:
okay. All right. So let’s take this first break, which you’re a part of because it’s wegner-C.P.As, which I’m grateful for. So wegner-C.P.As, of course. Thank you. I’m saying all time

[00:09:43.53] spk_2:
forgot. Take their CPS way. No, we’re getting a dick. We’re getting detail about what the audit is, but basically, it’s kind of like a dentist. You get an idea of what? An order what wegner-C.P.As firm does for you. I’m typically saying, start your due diligence at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone because that’s how I like to communicate. But it is going to

[00:09:49.38] spk_1:
talk to you because you know, a partner in the firm, cause serious. So what’s that? If I’m picking up the phone

[00:10:08.10] spk_2:
and calling you and saying I looked at your was on the website, you might help us. We need some help with our, uh 9 90 Wait. I feel like we can’t. It’s beyond our capability doing in house anymore. What would that What would that look like? That call look like

[00:10:34.01] spk_3:
that Cole would look like. Basically, I would be asking some questions. Will identify your needs better on Do we have, like, Haman states? Are you registered then? And kind of try to understand what you have kind of try to understand your organization. And I would liketo look at your previous 9 90 kind of to someone else’s and such. And basically that you know what we can do for you. And if it works out, you will start working together. So

[00:10:41.70] spk_1:
Okay, Thank you. Start your

[00:10:42.09] spk_2:
due diligence at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone.

[00:10:45.04] spk_1:
Talk to you. It’s friendly, guy. I mean, he wouldn’t be on the show. I wouldn’t have it back

[00:10:51.13] spk_2:
if it wasn’t that way. So wegner-C.P.As dot com. Okay, let’s go back. Thio.

[00:10:56.35] spk_1:
So now this is a This is gonna

[00:11:01.03] spk_2:
be our audit. Hiring already firm is an

[00:11:01.34] spk_1:
r f p. Typical in this

[00:11:11.66] spk_3:
kind of peace. Typical. Like I would say 80% 90% off the time we receive an R F P and on. Then the process starts after that.

[00:11:15.16] spk_2:
Okay, how do we, as an organ, decide who to send the R. P too?

[00:11:55.88] spk_3:
Basically, um, ask for references, referrals from from somebody that you trust. So usually ah, it can be the board that may be deciding that. And they may be serving in other other organizations, which they may be familiar with. Their audit firms. Like that might be one thing. The other thing is a lot off firms are now using our source accounting firm that dough there today. Today, accounting. And they may. They work with a lot of water firms as well, and they may give you some recommendations based on your size and such. And or you can go Google firms. Yeah, Lam profits in the year, for example, and see who come up and then send our fees that day. So it’s got multiple ways off.

[00:12:13.56] spk_1:
It doesn’t have to

[00:12:16.45] spk_2:
be local, though. I mean, the point was you could do this. Could be done virtually. It

[00:12:19.26] spk_3:
doesn’t have to be a local. No,

[00:12:20.79] spk_1:
but use your networks

[00:12:21.94] spk_2:
absolutely aboard other CEOs, you know, rather CFO’s. You know, if that’s your situation, you know, use your networks. Okay. Um

[00:12:31.08] spk_1:
are there other sample R f p C

[00:12:41.24] spk_2:
o r. I mean, is this stuff on the web like, all crappy are thes. I mean, how do you develop this R p? Basically,

[00:12:52.84] spk_3:
you can start with a template and there’s a lot off them on stone line. You can point some, but I highly encourage people organizations toe really like first determine why you are looking for a change. Like, what is that you did not like with your current relationship and make sure that how you want that relationship change, make sure that you put those criterion the ft so that you’re looking like you kind of identify your needs and what you’re looking for. What’s important to you.

[00:13:13.84] spk_2:
OK, so, like, of turnover bothered you or fee or timetable?

[00:13:20.44] spk_3:
Absolutely. I think timetable is one of the many reasons by organizations Look for a new firm because the day prior firm are the firm that they use are not meeting their timelines.

[00:13:44.48] spk_2:
Okay? Meaning what? Like the organization should How does how does the timeline get get determined that that the firm may not be, er yeah, complying with

[00:14:26.74] spk_3:
to say, um and you’re an organization and you want to present your audit in June, tow the board of directors. Okay, The audit firm somehow cannot meet that deadline or a lot of times thes here. Some complaints from prospects, they say, Okay, our audit is done. Mother 9 90 doesn’t get done for another six months. So that maybe like a I was look at the tax and the audit as one engagement. Okay, it’s part of one relationship and that maybe time spared the audit is done on time, but then maybe the audit firm are the accounting firm has a separate department that does the tax work your 9 90 maybe that gets late. Guess it. Still, it is also, I think, is the point is like, I know what you want and have kind of like try to think about how you want that relationship to look like and put all those as your criteria in therapy. And as questions about have the firm would address those.

[00:14:50.09] spk_2:
What’s another reason besides the number one timing failures? What’s another reason you see people wanting toe change firms,

[00:15:25.64] spk_3:
increasing fees, and the other reason is if you’re a startup organization or some changes are happening, they say your small organizations. But you have growth plans, and the firm we are working with doesn’t have the expertise that you need as you grow so certain times like the small. When you’re small, you start with one firm. As you get bigger, your niece change and your current form is not able to meet them. And the other part might be responsiveness like you may not. You may be contacting your audit firm, and they don’t get back to you for weeks or, like the relationship kind off way,

[00:15:57.14] spk_2:
will feel that crappy customer service. Right? You are a vendor, you’re providing service. I don’t expect an email back in five minutes, but I think within 24 hours somebody should get back. Even if it’s this is a really busy day, you know? Can we talk later in the week or something? Give me something you’re inviting service something for

[00:16:07.53] spk_3:
the other reason is errors like sometimes errors are made and they don’t get found out until later. And once that’s why not. You know they may wanna change firms because then your expertise is being questioned.

[00:16:16.15] spk_2:
Yeah, How do? How do audit errors get found? I mean, it’s the audit. That’s just be finding errors. How do you find errors in your audit?

[00:16:32.34] spk_3:
Basically, maybe the audits firm missed procedure or Mr An Error that was present in the financial statements, Baby, they didn’t do enough. That’s thing. Maybe something may happen. I mean, that can’t be errors. How

[00:16:35.34] spk_2:
do you just how does the organization discovered the error

[00:16:38.18] spk_1:
It’s got me

[00:16:48.38] spk_3:
discovers in to waste. One is internally. Someone looks at it in a different from a different perspective, or something else comes up, they need to go back. And something doesn’t make sense. For example, today and then you go back and look at previous documents and find out that all this should have been treated differently, for example, and the audit firm did not catch it. Okay,

[00:17:05.89] spk_1:
okay. I’m guessing it’s probably

[00:17:07.13] spk_2:
not a board that often, you know, in in its review of the audit, I don’t see your average board member finding the mistakes in the audit.

[00:17:15.28] spk_4:
Typically not. They

[00:17:17.80] spk_1:

[00:17:37.69] spk_3:
find errors in maybe some narrative descriptions and such, but sometimes they do like some some board members are financial is everyday, be sits on the boards. They look at all the financials and they may be finding errors. But those errors are found before the artist gets issued, but still an error. So that kind of like whenever there’s an area that auditor didn’t catch, kindof like damages the credibility.

[00:17:46.96] spk_2:
Right? You’ve submitted it to the board as final. Okay.

[00:17:51.11] spk_1:
All right. So yeah, I mean, some

[00:17:52.95] spk_2:
organizations even have an order committee. Those are bigger non profit maps. Probably the universities, hospitals or whatever. Just a bigger. So they have no other committees, or presumably, yes. Then there’s expertise in that committee to scrutinize

[00:18:11.52] spk_3:
supposedly, hopefully rebuttable presumption in the year. For example, if you are required to have an audit your also required in order to comedy.

[00:18:18.78] spk_1:
Is that right? New York, you have to have an order

[00:18:20.31] spk_3:
committee will have toe.

[00:18:21.25] spk_2:
Okay. And what’s the threshold for an audit in New York? Current

[00:18:28.73] spk_3:
$750,000 in total revenue, assuming you have more than $25,000 in donations from New York.

[00:18:34.88] spk_2:
Okay, 25,000 in donations from New York and and 750,000 in total revenue

[00:18:40.80] spk_3:
or more yet

[00:18:42.15] spk_2:
born What? Right then That’s the trigger for in order to New York State. Yes, And I’m sure it varies widely across the States.

[00:18:48.65] spk_3:
It does. It does not. Every not every state has an audit committee requirement. For example, California has it, but their trash Holt is two million depends. And it’s also all its committed Rules are different in every state. Ho can be on the committee what they have to do. Everything is different. So

[00:19:06.82] spk_2:
you’ll be gratified to know that that Gene Takagi is in background nodding when you said the $2 million.

[00:19:15.74] spk_3:
That’s good to hear. I was right. You’ve indicated? Yeah,

[00:19:19.33] spk_2:
because I certainly don’t have the expertise. Not this question. Um

[00:19:21.34] spk_1:
okay, s so anything else you want to say

[00:19:23.71] spk_2:
about the therapy process before we get to evaluating the proposals that come in?

[00:19:30.86] spk_1:
Um, I think

[00:19:32.96] spk_3:
I think that’s pretty much it again. Like that said yes, you’re a portrait. It toe make

[00:19:37.24] spk_1:

[00:19:37.38] spk_3:
like a visual ist like, what do you wish tohave in your audit relationship and kind of go with that?

[00:19:44.16] spk_2:
Okay. All right. So now you get these, Uh, I guess you get what’s a reasonable. Number 44 proposals back or

[00:19:51.03] spk_1:
usually I

[00:20:13.75] spk_3:
see an average off three threes. The most common sometimes Thio. Sometimes more than that. I’ve seen up as much as 10. Yeah. Yeah. So they kind of issue for will not respond And something like that sometimes. Like something like when you center FB you asked, like, Are you going to respond or not? You know, So that’s the wrong questions that gets asked something. So

[00:20:20.75] spk_2:
and then if the firm doesn’t even respond to that

[00:20:23.01] spk_3:
than their low life Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:37.52] spk_2:
Don’t never refer them again. Exact. They don’t respond to your Are you going to respond to our f B question? Okay. All right. So you got you got your 3 to 4 proposals back. What are we doing now? I was looking for I would

[00:21:32.03] spk_3:
actually look for the, um, the overall response process like, are they? How did they respond to your initial when you sent direct appeals? Say, usually, now they come in e mails like, how are they responding to their art? A timely. And when you make appointments, are they late? Are they not late? Like in this stage, like a proposal stage if they’re not giving you the attention. Yeah, on. Very That’s a very bad sign off the overall relationship. I think the first impression, maybe last impression tow the time. So it’s really important to see how they handle things and always look for writing. What’s important relationship is not never make errors. But once you make an error, how do you recover from that? And I think it’s really important as well. And during the process, I think initially they take the time toe, ask us questions and today, or are you just sending like a blanket proposal without even

[00:21:47.09] spk_1:
That’s like asking a couple questions

[00:22:00.68] spk_2:
about what the perp, the R F P, says. That’s a good That’s a good sign. I mean, the firm is actually scrutinizing it. Paying close attention wants to be responsive to exactly what you’re asking. But they’re not sure exactly what you’re looking for, but also, but

[00:22:39.03] spk_3:
also basically see if they’re trying to identify your knees. I mean, you can put so much in writing in the Riviera. Peas are usually standards, and there’s so much else goes on at the firm. Are they trying to like understand? You’re really needs and how they can add value. Are they asking questions? So usually photography. You sent your most recent order to report and your 9 90 and ah, nde sometimes, like, put some description off what organization looks like now. But I think, um, the audit firm should be interested in the organization enough to ask some more questions on Try to learn more, as opposed to just

[00:22:48.29] spk_2:
just giving back the RP. But yeah, by the deadline,

[00:22:50.92] spk_3:
you have just told me in the other budgets for to me in the other speech church this much this is your fetus is the proposal versus taking the time to talk to them and asking questions and see

[00:23:04.96] spk_1:
OK, some engagement, like applying standard a common sense. You

[00:23:33.10] spk_2:
know, if you’re trying to hire a contractor for your home on dhe here, she’s not getting back to you, you know, at the at getting the business stage. That’s a bad sign, you know, or if they don’t seem to be listening to you about what it is you want to do. You know, you’re asking for their ideas and they don’t come back with ideas. They just come back with a fee you know the same. Same as same as hiring a vendor for your your audits facility. No, I haven’t sense, for God’s sake.

[00:24:09.96] spk_3:
The other thing I would look at as have they addressed all your points in the F B. Have they read the appear? Are you getting like a blanket proposal? I think that’s really important to you. And the hurting I would look at would be like, How is the presentation off the proposal like Is that looking sloppy? Are their errors like the spacing looks, beard or just aesthetics off the off? The proposal and errors in it like spelling errors, grammar errors like this? It’s free off errors. I think it’s important. Yeah, spokes. That looks like it’s somebody reviewing them before you send it to you.

[00:24:19.00] spk_1:
Um, what about a presentation? Is that is that typical

[00:24:21.84] spk_2:
toe have? Ah, maybe you narrow it down from 4 to 2 and you want them both to make a presentation to the board. Is that is that an unreasonable? That’s not

[00:25:16.25] spk_3:
unreasonable, And but that does not happen too often than the smaller organizations. Probably your listener base probably doesn’t happen. The presentations doesn’t happen that way. what does happen, though They, uh, there’s like a conference call the Save it with the treasure or the audit committee chair at the accountant or someone just follows up. Let’s say they I don’t. You get three and you eliminate Bond. Now you have the two, and you just have a called them or a meeting with them, but it doesn’t typically become like a formal presentation. But that does happen, though that’s not unusual to ask. Or definitely, I would encourage. That depends on how much time you want to spend, too.

[00:25:21.49] spk_2:
Okay, and then whether you want to get your board involved,

[00:25:24.17] spk_3:
I mean, it’s really hard to get people together. And Monroe

[00:25:28.00] spk_2:
suffered rumors to that effect about how difficult that can be. Um,

[00:25:33.64] spk_1:
you refer to something

[00:25:34.59] spk_2:
called AA Peer Review report on non ordered firms. What is that?

[00:26:23.45] spk_3:
Basically ah, every C p. A firm that does attestation engagements like audits reveals they need to go through a peer review every three years. Peer review is another C p. A firm basically comes in, doesn’t audit off your order to brag or like attestation practice, so it’s not only artistic look at reviews, they look at complications. They look at audits and just to see your following to professional standards and look at the quality off the work. And if you’re not doing good for Earth than you get findings just like you give findings. Oh, non profit organization in your artists. Yeah, the peer review C p a. Firm does the same thing for you. There’s, like levels or findings and such. But typically, I would look for I would definitely request that period the report. Even if there’s findings, you need to know what they are and have the firm responded to them.

[00:26:37.17] spk_2:
Okay, so it’s not something that’s public, but you can ask for it from the firm’s you’re considering.

[00:26:41.85] spk_3:
I I believe it’s public, too. You can go to the I. C. P s website and look for it. I’m pretty sure the American Institute of Certified Public Contents Yep. And find

[00:26:52.87] spk_2:
all the peer review reports for all

[00:26:54.24] spk_3:
the servi. They should be all day. Okay, Okay. But I would just ask for it in the part off the f B and they should put in the proposal.

[00:27:05.99] spk_2:
Okay, We have just about a minute left. Okay, So how about getting started. What? You’re like a number one or two. Top advice for for getting this new relationship off the ground,

[00:27:49.51] spk_3:
I would say, Set the expectations specialty timelines and make sure everyone is on the same page. So I think the dissatisfactions happens when there’s an expectation gap this one person is thinking it’s gonna have on this bay and the other one just don’t assume, just confirm and just have a meeting with thought it firm and come up. It agreed upon timeline. I think it’s really important, and it will work sport they like. If the organization still not provide the information, the auditors cannot do the work. So what we do in every audit, the established time lines, we start with men, they need order to be done by. And then we sent them the list and they can tell us when they can be ready. And then we’ll find time between when they can hear them and they need it done. I kind of like established dead pay,

[00:28:04.93] spk_2:
working backwards from when they

[00:28:06.08] spk_3:
need exact Exactly. So it just always keep the end in mind. Okay,

[00:28:15.78] spk_2:
let’s wrap it up there. Thank you. Very much you do. Partner wegner-C.P.As. The firm is wegner-C.P.As dot

[00:28:17.12] spk_1:
com and at wegner-C.P.As Thanks for coming back to the show and studio. Pleasure.

[00:28:23.62] spk_2:
Having a big thank you You okay? Cracking like a 14 year old, uh,

[00:28:29.10] spk_1:
need to take a break. Wegner. No cook about software. So

[00:28:30.99] spk_2:
what’s all the kinds of Whitney wegner wegner on the head?

[00:28:33.47] spk_1:
Cook a Mountain software is this one quote. We’ve been very happy

[00:28:36.64] spk_2:
with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they’re always there to help. Walk me through it and

[00:28:42.74] spk_1:
quote that Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. Cougar Mountain

[00:28:46.63] spk_2:
has a free 60 day trial, which you’ll find on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant.

[00:29:17.39] spk_1:
Martin. Let’s do our live love. Ah, and it goes out. Thio Tip of Florida Washington D. C oh, cool Washington Not too often to Washington. Tucson, Arizona, Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York, Ontario, Calif. Ontario, Canada. Um, Seattle, Washington. Awesome. Upper West Norcross, Georgia South east of it Going abroad Moscow, Russia Thank you for being with us. Live love out to Moscow, Seoul, South Korea On your jasio consomme. Nita Live love out there. Tehran, Iran Also, Tehran’s been with us a couple times getting turning it, Theo loyal,

[00:29:41.74] spk_2:
live listeners. So the live love goes out and the pleasantries go out to the podcast audience. That’s our over 13,000 listeners on your

[00:29:45.55] spk_1:
own device, your own timetable, whatever fits into your life. I’m

[00:29:45.79] spk_2:
glad that it does. Thank you very much. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners.

[00:29:53.49] spk_1:
Time for tony Steak, too. Planned giving relationship stories

[00:29:55.60] spk_2:
is the current video that you will find a tony-martignetti dot com because when I did

[00:30:14.64] spk_1:
plan giving relationships, I left. The story’s out. Relationships are with people, and I left the people out of the first video. I talked about how the relationship gets started, the value of long term relationships to your organization and to you personally. And then I left out all the examples, so that’s that’s not I mean, it’s good as far as it goes, but it’s like half the story. If you can talk about relationships, how about some examples? So

[00:30:56.15] spk_2:
in plan giving relationships to the stories I give you some stories of, um, Eleanor and, uh, Evelyn and Barbara and James the before I tell stories about and, uh, you know I’m sure there have been hundreds. Well, there’s definitely 100. But, you know, some people are more memorable, memorable than others. And those are the four that came to mind first. So some touching stories in that video, which you’ll find at tony-martignetti dot com

[00:31:07.05] spk_1:
Now what a pleasure to welcome to the studio. Jean Takagi. He’s here in the studio in New York City. He’s the managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits

[00:31:15.33] spk_2:
the wildly popular non profit law blogged dot

[00:31:24.34] spk_1:
com. He’s the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non profit lawyer. He’s at G Tack. He’s Jean Jean, the law machine. Welcome to the studio, Gene. Too cocky. This is awesome. Done. It absolutely is. It’s 10 years since your first appearance on the show,

[00:31:35.23] spk_2:
and you’ve been a contributor for, like, nine and

[00:31:41.43] spk_1:
1/2 years or something. And here you are in the studio. I love it. Absolutely love it. Thanks so much. I’m so glad it worked out.

[00:31:43.37] spk_4:
I’m so happy to be here. It’s actually my first time in any studios, so it’s Ah, it’s a pleasure,

[00:31:49.80] spk_1:
Your life to your life up to this moment has brought you here. It’s all culminated here. This is the pinnacle. It’s all downhill from here.

[00:31:56.06] spk_4:
Mom can be proud.

[00:31:58.08] spk_1:
Sorry. Going down from here. Now, Um, this is

[00:32:00.83] spk_2:
wonderful. Really Is very, very good to see you. Um,

[00:32:04.67] spk_1:
So, um, this is a This is a little tough, touchy topic. We, uh you and I had a touchy topic

[00:32:10.01] spk_2:
when we talked about diversity equity and inclusion. Um,

[00:32:19.21] spk_1:
this one is, Ah, equitable compensation. Uh, you know, you you frame it for us. You please do. I think we

[00:32:39.13] spk_4:
could look at it in so many different dimensions. Tony mean one is is Do we pay? Everybody is Lois. Salary is absolutely possible, so we can try to serve as many people as possible. And that’s one level one level is we have this huge pay gap between men and women. What are we doing about that? There’s also gaps based on race on and other protected class issues as well. And sometimes it’s not just the legal problem.

[00:32:49.42] spk_2:
It’s not just the protected classes,

[00:32:57.34] spk_4:
right? It legally protected. Yeah, it’s just why are we paying this person differently from this person and is that institutionalized. Is that just personal discretion? Who are the decision makers there? Is there so many levels to this? But I agree can be a very controversial area,

[00:33:30.36] spk_2:
controversial and insightful. These are hard questions, you know? What should the gap be between the highest paid person in the organization and the lowest paid person organization? What should that ratio look like? And how do we justify it? Um and yeah, I I just I think I mentioned it, but I want to make drive home the point that we’re not just talking about classes that are legally protected.

[00:33:32.58] spk_4:
Yeah, I think we go go beyond that. And I think what you said about the highest paid to the lowest paid gap is really interesting. I think for CEOs it’s close to 285 to 1.

[00:33:44.60] spk_1:
Is that average non profits

[00:33:48.15] spk_4:
for for profit companies, non profit? It’s probably better. I don’t know if there’s been a study done on that, Um, but California is considering, Ah bill. Now that says, if your gap is more than 300 to 1, highest paid the lowest paid, typically the CEO versus sort of the average line worker We’re gonna increase your tax anywhere from like 2 to 6% on that. So it’s interesting to see now that the lock take over and say, We don’t like these pay imbalances and this is what we’re going to do about it,

[00:34:23.72] spk_1:
Yeah. How did Attorney practicing in California, How do you feel

[00:34:24.23] spk_2:
about the level of regulation in California? Do

[00:34:30.80] spk_1:
you feel it? You feel it’s burdensome? Or do you? I’m sure it’s. I’m sure you feel it’s right headed, but do you feel it’s excessive sometimes, or or not?

[00:34:37.30] spk_2:
Just like it’s the role of state government Thio make things fair and equitable for everybody.

[00:34:44.29] spk_4:
It’s a tricky question. I

[00:34:45.56] spk_1:
think some of

[00:35:30.68] spk_4:
the intent is is right. So the intent of the A G on the attorney general, typically the charity regulator in California, is to protect donors protect charitable dollars to ensure that they’re not being misused. But the problem can be is when some decisions are made about how regulations should be shaped or what type of bills the E A. G should sponsor or find a sponsor for, um, are they taking a few isolated, high profile problems in creating a solution for that and then that is, in effect creating a huge burden for everybody else who’s never done anything wrong. And what are the pros and cons when you look at its sector wide? And I think they don’t have the expertise or the people power to be able to make those decisions on their own Now, to their credit, they’ve been good about reaching out. We’ve actually sort of consulted with the A G from time to time in working discussion groups about how laws might impact the broader sector. But oftentimes, big corporations are in there here more often than the small Guy

[00:36:07.66] spk_2:
G is reaching out to you right now. They have lobbyists and professionals. Alright, alright, just I’ve wondered about that because it’s an activist state and a lot of states follow the California leader. At least look to see what California’s doing in lots of different lots of different areas. Environment, non profits of its wide

[00:36:10.71] spk_4:
Yeah, well should should add, though, that the non profit activists have actually been very good about this as well. In part, it partly why, when you eat was talking about the audit threshold in New York being 750,000. I think in California’s two million, because the non profit said That’s too low. It’s gonna be too expensive to have audits at that level. So we actually we’re more lenient on that front on the audit.

[00:36:36.18] spk_1:
Okay? All right. So, yeah, it’s not always stringent.

[00:36:46.03] spk_2:
CE stringency greater stringency. But it’s, you know, sort of recognized as, ah, highly legislated ST Ah, highly regulated state.

[00:36:49.07] spk_4:
I think that’s fair to say, and it makes it all the more important for nonprofits to actually speak up. Make sure that their legislators on dear regulatory bodies know what they want. Really important.

[00:37:03.12] spk_1:
So we’re talking about the

[00:37:29.82] spk_2:
compensation way, said it briefly, But again, it merits a little more attention. We’re talking about going beyond what the laws call for me. We have the Americans with disability act. We have the Civil Rights Act of 1964. We have other law bodies of law that govern compensation. But we’re looking as this more at is ah, as a just an equitable ethical moral issue.

[00:37:30.52] spk_1:
Yeah, and even if

[00:37:31.31] spk_4:
it doesn’t violate the law because I’m a lawyer, I always have to say

[00:37:34.44] spk_1:
Well, the law plays

[00:37:35.38] spk_4:
a part because even if you win a lawsuit when there’s an employee claim, just a have a lawsuit against you is incredibly demoralizing. It looks bad to your stakeholders, internal and external. So even if you’re lawfully doing everything right, if you’re ethically having some challenges or your stakeholders stopped believing in, you don’t believe that you’re you’re living into your values. You’ve got much, much bigger problems and just legal ones.

[00:38:03.01] spk_1:
Yeah, you’re trying to do social change,

[00:38:04.55] spk_2:
work social good. But your own organization is unfairly compensated that the salaries are out of whack in your own organization. But you’re trying to improve conditions for the porters or

[00:38:17.14] spk_1:
even if not, if it saves the environment. You’re trying

[00:38:19.23] spk_2:
to do social change, work and improve the state of the world. But your own organization is not a model for that.

[00:38:40.26] spk_4:
That and you can imagine. This gets really controversial when we talk about minimum wage and say, Well, we’re a social service organization that serves low income communities. We’ve got to pay minimum wage for workers. But in a city like New York City or San Francisco, that means they can’t even afford to live in the city right Now I’ve got to commute from the suburbs. And is that really equitable to your staff? Is that what you want to display to everybody else supporting you?

[00:38:50.72] spk_1:
You have this poverty myth, right? There are a lot of

[00:39:16.52] spk_2:
assumptions underlying what we get, where what we’re talking about the inequity on and one of them and then they get deeper. But one of them is this poverty myth that we’re doing social change, work and improving the world. And so, you know, that should be gratifying enough to you. So you get a 40% lower salary than someone doing comparable work. I don’t know another organization or because we feel we feel way can’t afford to pay you more or you get you get a discount from the for profit sector because you’re doing social good work. And that should be gratifying to you. And that has value. So we pay you less.

[00:39:31.73] spk_4:
And it’s really sad to say that actually, some employers, some non profit employers, see that as a legitimate screen that we are going to pay lower than we even can in order to find the most altruistic people possible. I don’t like that kind of idea, but you’ve heard

[00:39:47.22] spk_1:
that articulated.

[00:39:55.47] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, So to find the most altruistic people we’re gonna we’re gonna pay the least. So we’re gonna

[00:40:03.71] spk_1:
get what you pay for, you know? And And what kind of what kind of commitment or you’re getting out of workers who know that there being paid a bottom feeder salary?

[00:40:06.41] spk_4:
Yeah, again, something I strongly disagree with. But that thinking is still still out there.

[00:40:20.07] spk_2:
Okay, I wouldn’t have thought that it would be articulated, but you’ve heard it. A CZ. A theory of recruitment.

[00:40:21.88] spk_4:
Yeah, you’ll hear it in research studies done where they do surveys of organizations, and they explain their compensation systems and you’ll see what some of the rational czar and it pops up.

[00:40:35.01] spk_2:
Okay. All right. We got a couple minutes before break.

[00:40:36.25] spk_1:
Let’s talk about some

[00:40:36.82] spk_2:
of these other cultural assumptions that are underlying cause

[00:40:39.40] spk_1:
this is

[00:41:11.45] spk_2:
where it gets, you know, kind of ah gets unfair. Um, the professional degrees, um, immediately convey or no are automatically convey a value to the organization. So somebody who’s an MBA or an attorney or a c p a. No. Irrespective of whether the professional designation enhances the value. Literally, really. But just way value that over way immediately imply a value to that, even if the job doesn’t require that kind of skill or that kind of professional education.

[00:41:19.15] spk_4:
Yeah, and not to knock professional education.

[00:41:22.54] spk_1:
I got one. You’ve got one? Yeah,

[00:41:24.66] spk_4:
it’s great. But, um, life experience can sometimes be much more valuable or experienced in the job sort of characteristics and duties itself could be more more valuable than professional response are some sorry professional experience in an unrelated field. But so many organizations use education is kind of a factor of where they’re going to set their pay, and they set educational standards that they want when it doesn’t seem applicable to what the job requires. And we see organizations in the four profit world actually leave that thinking, especially in the tech industry, right? They don’t care if you have a graduate degree from Stanford, if you’ve got a bunch of coding experience that’s directly relevant to what they’re creating at the moment. So I think more non profit have got to get away from that thinking that somehow an educational degree in whatever is necessarily going to be something that makes the person more valuable to them,

[00:42:54.49] spk_2:
then the network life experience. Correct. Okay. Okay, um, the, uh the belief that, um, productivity or output is more important than, um the relationship building and how you’re making people feel in the organization and and outside the organization to know, producing paper reports and Versace the ah, the feelings toward the organization that you’re you’re engendering through your work.

[00:43:06.08] spk_4:
Yeah, I think that’s also another danger. Where there’s in the thinking of professionalizing the sector, we’re all about metrics, right? We need to get metrics that we have to get back to our funders to show that we’re creating value. So all of a sudden the employees are incentivized to create better metrics on that may be at the expense of developing longer term relationships. I will actually move the mission forward Maur in the long run than it will in the short run. So we get caught up in the whole same problem that Fortune five hundred’s get caught up in satisfying shareholder spirit. Immediate short term returns, not thinking aboutthe long game. So I think that that is an issue

[00:43:40.56] spk_2:
being too short term thinking for the next board meeting what what our numbers look like for this quarter versus long term value.

[00:43:46.95] spk_4:
Right? Long term value. Also, employee retention being part of that long term value and the value that that having employees stay with you and doing their work, feeling that that sense of pride in what they’re doing, an accomplishment could be so much more valuable than serving an extra 5% meals. In Week three,

[00:44:24.77] spk_2:
we just replayed Adrian, sergeant on relationship fundraising for just last week for a valve on the Valentine’s Day show February 14th and he talked a lot. Now this is just devote to fundraising and where you and I are talking broader. But as it relates to fund raising too many organizations ignoring the lifetime value of a donor, how do you make your donors feel over the long term versus did you get? Did you get a 20% increase in their annual gift this year?

[00:44:36.39] spk_4:
Yeah, and so what do you mean organizational level? And what are you telling your employees? If you say no, you should try to get as much as he can. Now, don’t worry about the long term value of the donor relationships that don’t spend extra time with them. You can hit more people. That’s the wrong message.

[00:44:50.56] spk_2:
Get the car last break. Ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build

[00:45:02.52] spk_1:
relationship. We’re talking about relationships again. I mean, it’s it’s pervasive relationships, Just like last week again, they worked to build relationships with journalists who mattered

[00:45:21.29] spk_2:
to them so that when you pick up when you make a call or you send an email, the journalist replies, That’s because of a relationship. A preexisting relationship. Turn two can help you do that. Their former journalists, including at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They will help you build meaningful media relationships that can lead to great coverage there. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got

[00:45:29.38] spk_1:
butt loads more

[00:45:29.86] spk_2:
time for equitable compensation with Jean Takagi in the

[00:45:36.93] spk_1:
studio. Um, where do you want

[00:45:37.58] spk_2:
to go from here? Uh,

[00:45:44.76] spk_1:
any any other cultural assumptions that annoy the hell out of you? Well,

[00:47:18.32] spk_4:
I I think generally speaking, we think we may be as employers giving people benefits when we say, Hey, we’re gonna give you a plus, you know, added match matching contribution to your +401 K plan, for example. But we may not take into account. A lot of our employees have their own financial issues and may not be able to contribute to +41 K plans, so they don’t get that benefit of all of the match, right? So again, equitable considerations would say, Well, maybe we should open up this benefit so that everybody can access to it has access to it. So maybe it gets put into a flexible spending accounts so they can take care of their elder parents, and not just to their 401 K. Or maybe we give them the cash so they couldn’t pay off a student loan. So things like benefits have a place in this. The other cultural assumptions. To make it, we have to figure out more. And I think maybe the biggest issue for the pay gap on the gender basis, maybe letting people figure out where and when they can work and don’t live on to the assumptions that you have to provide face time. It has to be in the office always because so many people who are the primary child givers who are in the workforce that’s where the pay gap gets hit really, really hard. And that’s where women, who once they once they have child Children and decide that they’re going to be the primary caregiver, which is most of the time relative to the man. You know, that’s That’s where they never recover

[00:47:28.33] spk_2:
their career. Yeah, it’s a downward trajectory for their career. For what, 18 years or something? Conceivably. Okay,

[00:47:28.90] spk_1:
another thes. They’re all

[00:47:30.66] spk_2:
good issues for a conversation in the

[00:47:32.72] spk_1:
office conversation with board. Another one is

[00:47:37.57] spk_2:
the the how percentage increases in in salary perpetuate the gap because you’re giving everybody a percentage of the high or low that they’ve

[00:47:48.78] spk_1:
already got. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not, uh, quill a breaking that a word equalizing, not equalizing. You’re just continuing

[00:47:56.74] spk_2:
the the disparity through percentage, you know, annual percentage increases.

[00:48:30.73] spk_4:
Yeah, and I think a payout. It is probably something that every organization should do and actually just ask themselves. How did we determine what the pay rates are for each of these positions? Ah, and is it equitable? Not just top to bottom, but across, you know. Are we paying one person for the same position so much more than another position, another person, even though the other person might actually be doing better work just because they had more of an educational background. So all of those things need to be looked at? Questioned, I think, tracked. So you’re if you’re gonna make these decisions in the future that are more equitable, you have to be able to explain what factors you’re looking at in order to change somebody’s compensation. And why that and how that’s applied is it applied evenly and doesn’t explain why there’s a disparity now in pay between two different people or three different people who occupy the same position.

[00:48:56.37] spk_2:
Um, you can create in your organization a pay equity team.

[00:49:04.22] spk_4:
Yeah, that’s yeah, I’m on the board of an organization called Compass Point in San Francisco.

[00:49:07.61] spk_2:
In a point to that article shortly

[00:49:54.01] spk_4:
Terrific and, yeah, having an removing the decision making from just one executive director, but who might set the caps just to make sure that there’s no overcompensation involved in that the budget is being complied with. But having an equity panel within the organization made up of peers, um, looking at self evaluations and trying to determine what the compensation rates should be within again. A permitted range. Think that’s a really great form of distributed leadership where you’re giving more power to your team, um, and letting them decide what the compensation rates can be now. There were definitely some cons to that issue as well. With more responsibility, there’s gonna be more criticism. But we found out that that it can work really, really well. And people sometimes are actually more conservative about what they want to give than the executive director. And then just having a conversation about that, um, can can be very helpful. But it’s ah, it’s a really interesting a strategy to employ for some nonprofits who have reached that level of, ah, evolution, if you will, in inequity considerations.

[00:50:24.40] spk_2:
Compass point, um, walks through. I think it’s the interim executive director wrote The Post’s Walks through there. I guess it was a three year process. Was it a three year process there of evaluating and adjusting pay throughout the organization, I think, was a two or three year process. It’s

[00:51:15.93] spk_4:
actually been ongoing since 2016 which is really when it started, and it’s still it’s still an ongoing and sometimes a painful process of making things more equitable as you raised the issues and surface them there. You know there’s some pains. You find out some inequities of the past and you try to correct them. And some people are happy about that. Some people aren’t on and you know, the intersectionality of different ah issues if you well, it’s not just gender. It’s not just ages, not just race. There’s so many issues to think about in determining whether compensation is unfair or fair. Andi can be interpreted in different ways, so it is a challenge. But having a team there to help decide this instead of one person makes

[00:52:26.44] spk_2:
a huge difference, also empowering as well. And you know it defeats this myth that we can’t talk about pay at work because everybody’s pay is now known to the to the, uh, to the Pay Equity committee, the team that you’ve just created. So we are talking about it. I want to point people to the this article. It’s it’s actually two different block posts at Compass Point dot or GE on their blogged. It’s called reimagining compensation. It’s time to stop building inequities in the past from the past port. Wanting to Andre is very open about the difficulties that they went through and some people got very large increases. And she alludes to even there, being some decreases over time in salary like stage decreases, Thio make things fair and equitable. It’s quite a process we talked about. Yeah, and I

[00:52:49.76] spk_4:
think you know that’s a team decision. People have to look at this from a state law perspective as well. And so you have to be careful. Not Thio, through mandatory action, decreased one person’s salary to raise another. You have to be careful about that. So we had the luxury of having some change capital because the foundation was really supportive of what we did. And so here’s a big shout out to foundations for for unrestricted support, it really can do great things for for creating equity within an organization.

[00:53:03.75] spk_1:
Um, let’s talk some

[00:53:04.64] spk_2:
about, uh, well, the board. The board has a role here, too.

[00:53:22.97] spk_4:
Yeah, I think I’m still even when we talk about distributed leadership, which I mentioned before, the board still sets the tone at the top. Um, and I think it’s really incumbent upon the board to actually set the values of the organization. So it makes sense that not only are organizations acting to further the mission, but they’ve got to do it in a way that furthers their values as well.

[00:53:38.25] spk_2:
A cz part of their oversight on

[00:53:43.34] spk_1:
and really they’re there. Yeah, their responsibility to

[00:53:44.69] spk_2:
the organization. I’m taking it out of the fiduciary capacity and just making it, Ah, moral obligation that they have to the organization.

[00:54:09.96] spk_4:
Yeah. It’s not just about looking at the financials and saying, Can we survive another year? It’s It’s about creating the relationships, as you said, to make this the sustainable organization that lives its values and furthers its mission for a number of years so it can really actually drive through what they’re trying to do.

[00:54:11.29] spk_2:
Okay, we have about another minute or so before we gotta wrap. So, what would you like to whatever not talked about that? You want to say what?

[00:54:20.07] spk_4:
Um well, they’re a couple things, so I’m gonna leave the parking tax issue aside, then.

[00:54:26.26] spk_1:
Oh, I forgot. The host is so lackluster. This show it’s unbelievable. I don’t know why people listen. The hostess so crummy. Um, yeah, the all right next time we’ll get that next time. This is just about him. Report. God the hostess

[00:55:26.85] spk_4:
So crummy. Um, so I guess along the lines here some tips, maybe of creating more of an equity based compensation system within an organization. And I think, first audit, audit the organization. Try to figure out why you’re paying a tw what level? I have a board level awareness of what’s going on. I’m create a pay equity panel numb within your staff levels. Um, and take a look at where the disparities happen. Most often are the book benefits that I told you about, like the 401 K, but also in bonuses on dhe. We find that our studies have found that that bonus is often goto white men at the much different level than persons of color, especially women who are persons of color.

[00:55:34.29] spk_2:
All right, Thank you, Jean. Thank you very much. Opening up this topics. He’s managing attorney of neo, the non profit exempt organizations Law group. You’ll find him at G Tack and today you’ll find him in the studio in New York City. So glad to have your gene. What a pleasure.

[00:55:44.66] spk_4:
Thanks so much tony and great

[00:55:50.82] spk_1:
to see you, Sam. Yes. Next week. Get to the next

[00:55:52.47] spk_2:
level with Sherry Kwame Taylor. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com

[00:57:01.32] spk_1:
were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Coca Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein Do with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for October 12, 2012: End-Of-Year Campaign Coordination & Compensation Clarity

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Listen live or archive:

Tony’s Guests:

Chris Coletta, John Murphy, Karen J. Collins and me at BBCon 2012
John Murphy, Karen J. Collins and Chris Coletta: End-Of-Year Campaign Coordination

John Murphy, CEO of Zuri Group, Karen J. Collins, Zuri’s technical strategy consultant and Chris Coletta, social media coordinator for Conservation International, were my guests at Blackbaud’s bbcon conference earlier this month. They have strategies to boost your end-of-year campaign with planning; branding; leadership; and creativity. Now’s the time!



Gene Takagi & Emily Chan
Gene Takagi & Emily Chan: Compensation Clarity

Our regular legal contributors, Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO) answer these questions. How do you determine what’s reasonable compensation for executives? What happens if comp is excessive? What’s the automatic penalty that kicks in if you don’t disclose benefits? Plus, we’ll do a board role play. Let’s see who chairs the meeting.


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Durney hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host, thanks very much for being with me this week. Um, i’m dedicating my show this week. Tio my dear friend dave, who i know has been suffering from depression for many years. And i just learned this morning that he took his own life and it’s very sad. I’ve never dedicated a show to anyone, but this one is for dave in north carolina. He leaves ah, beautiful wife kathleen and their teenage son. And this show is for him this week. It’s going to be the end of your campaign coordination. John murphy is the ceo of zuri group. Karen collins is zuri groups technical strategy consultant and chris colletta, social media coordinator for conservation international. There were my guests that blackboards bb gun conference earlier this month. They have strategies to boost your end of your campaign with planning, branding, leadership and creativity. Now is the time it’s the fourth quarter and also compensation clarity how do you determine what’s reasonable compensation for your executives? What happens of compensation is excessive what’s that automatic penalty that kicks in if you don’t disclose benefits. Plus, we’re going to a board role play let’s. See who ends up chairing that meeting between the guests on take teo tony’s, take to the value of a quest on i give a hungry man pastries on the subway, and it got me thinking, are you on twitter while you’re listening? You can use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us right now, we’ll take a commercial. When we return, it’ll be directly into my bb con interview on campaign coordinate end of year campaign coordination. Please stay with me, it helps to feel you out there today, didn’t didn’t, didn’t dick tooting good ending? You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get in. E-giving duitz joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve, save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Sametz durney welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty twelve were outside washington, d c at the gaylord convention center and my guests now are karen yeager collins, john murphy and chris colletta. Karen is technical strategy consultant for zuri group that actually seated next to karen is chris coletta he’s social media coordinator, conservation international and at the end is john murphy, ceo of group. Please. Chris, why don’t you acquaint listeners with what conservation international workers? Thanks. Yeah, conservation international is, as the name implies, an international non-profit conservation organisation, we work in about forty different countries. Our mission is to protect nature for the benefit of people human well being a sort of at the heart of what c i does so, you know, protecting forests because they help us by climate change or protecting our oceans because they give us fish and, you know, products and things of that nature. So that’s what it’s all about what’s the annual budget there roughly about hundred million dollars? And if i’m wrong on that, you know, guide star will slap me down, but i think that’s about right, but nobody listens to this show way. John john murphy, what lies would you like to tell about the missouri what’s, the work they’re xero groups in online technology agency focusing on non-profit success? We’ve been partners with blackbaud for five years and worked with primarily with their customers, helping them be successful and filling gaps in their organizational. Okay, karen, what your seminar topic for the three of you was taking your end of your campaign outside the box is very timely. We’re in getting of the fourth quarter what’s, the what’s, the first piece, but i see you have for building the end of your campaign. What we’re trying to promote is that a lot of people have their end of your campaign one more begging them to plan for their end of your campaign as opposed to coming up on november first and not actually having a plan to go out to the biggest part about it is making that plan the other thing we’re what should we want to start that? Well, when did when did you start your campaign planning way? Started our campaign plan for this year at weeks ago, and it is today, october. Once we’re taping, you started planning. Just just a few weeks ago. I mean, you know, probably the beginning of august is when we sort of sat down as a group in earnest and really went for it, you know, maybe even earlier would be optimal if you have the time. You know, not everyone does, but certainly, you know, by, you know, this time of year, hopefully you’re pretty well along. If not, you know it’s. Ok, there’s still time you could do last there’s definitely things that you could do now, and you’ll be okay. But it’s going to move on so that’s, what we’re trying to promote is that planning and to plan early and then the outside of the box thing is, what can you do, teo to make sure that people choose to donate to you because you’re going to be inundated, everybody has an end of your campaign. So how to think outside the box to get you noticed. And then ultimately to cultivate that donor to your organisation as opposed to all the other ones that air filling their end boxes or filling their social media, new speeds and things like that. Okay, john, beyond you have the plan. But how do we start? Get some of these outcomes that karen is talking about executing the plan? Obviously so if you have to plan and most organizations start their plan, hopefully after last year, so january february rolls around and you’re starting to look, then what you’re gonna do that holiday season? And then you start implementing the plan. It usually kicks off right in the beginning of november, so organizations that look at holiday fund-raising you’re looking pretty much november one through december thirty one so that it could include black friday type e mails all the way through urine tax giving. All right, so what are some of the elements of this plan since the planet is so important? John it’s, it’s really a planning calendar so you you really start with a planning calendar, and you look at your database and you’re looking at how you’re approaching all of your constituents so you addressing them with direct mail or you’re addressing them with email, address them with phone calls or some type of event for a holiday season and that calendar than usually across all the organization we’re seeing organizations taking there, direct marketing efforts and putting him under a single point of focus so that they don’t get multiple people overlapping and spending extra resource is and during the time okay, chris, what’s up. How is some of this playing out of conservation international? How are you doing some of the things that john well, john, especially john is talking no, you’ve already done your planning. How does this work? What? John’s talking about working at cia? Great. Well, certainly, you know, i sort of want to stress that, you know, and are talking talked a lot about what? See i did last year. We work, you know, intensely was very group, you know, on some various things, one of the first things that we did is we actually built a map where people could go online and, you know, sort of show their support for conservation and not just show their support, but actually say why conservation matters to them. And, you know, sort of that was i like that because was very on brand is we need a teacher, and you’re going to tell us why and by the way, when you do that, of course, we’re also going to get your name. Andrew email address and your interests because you’ve told us why you care about nature and your twitter handle if you decided to post it. So making my life is a social media coordinator really great, because now i can go and i can, you know, match some of those folks with their twitter handles personally thank them, get them on board and hopefully start a relationship that you know eventually if they get enough content from us if they get enough good stuff, wait until the relationship so they become a donor just let’s just pursue that altum or whether it has to do with end of your campaign or not building from i do twitter relationship you get it, you get a handle, you have the information that you just you just described about a person, their interests. How do you take that relationship beyond twitter? Well, so social media in general, i sort of think of it as you know, you’re getting someone to say that they’re interested in you, whether they follow you on twitter, you know, like you on facebook follow-up board on pinterest reno look at your photos on instagram, whatever you know, it’s sort of platform agnostic. Whatever it is, they’re there because they have signaled that interest. Falik so, you know, then you had to ask someone out on a date they signal their interests. You actually, you know, start sending things about your organization. Um, and hopefully if you are giving them relevant content, what they care about, not what you think they need to know, but what you no, that they care about, because you’ve done your research and you’ve done your hopefully, you know, either, you know, ask people what they care about. You done focus groups, you know, in some other way, you know, following sort of best practices research ends, they get interested, then you can ask them, hey, you know, have you signed up for cia’s newsletter? You know, some of them will sign that perseus knew slater six months, they’ll get six newsletters and some, you know, start to get campaign e mails and they get enough campaign e mails and they like what they hear, then they’re going to make a donation, it’s all about getting your foot in the door with a person and then, you know, treating them, you know, sort of. In a very human, you know, personal way. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s time, join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio broke in the ivory tower. We’ll discuss what you’re born, you society, politics, business, it’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry. Sure you’re neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower radio, dot com e every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening tuesday nights nine to eleven it will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com karen, you want to say more about that? Not you nodding off a lot. You want to add to it? Absolutely, absolutely so what kristen has done with that math, it was called connect for conservation is what we did for that pretty campaign for them last year. Not only did they get their twitter handles, but they also got like he was saying to expand upon what the conservation connection was, there was options for health, there was options for climate, there was options for, you know, all different types of connections, and so what chris was able to do and what he was speaking on is now we know that not only they’re interested in conservation organisations, but they’re also interested specifically in climate, so therefore that was how chris was able to personally thank them on twitter, but then now we know that climate is their main concern, so the way that you cultivate and as chris a date that constituent and turned them into a donor is to listen to what that that attraction is to the organization and continue to hit on those spots so that then all of a sudden they realize that they’re not just somebody that has pockets that they could give two, but there’s somebody that you care about and you want to educate and therefore that makes them i want to better your organization and better your mission and that’s, what we’re trying to do here is not just continue bringing people in tow us, but to better our mission and to solve our mission and that’s how you do it through those touchpoint of social media, okay, and let’s, bring this back to the end of your campaign. What would we then do specifically with that person? We’ve given the information that we know? Absolutely so with the end of your campaign. What were stressing with that social media point is if you have somebody that you’re reaching out to via social media, you need to make sure that they know when you touch them and other organization or other outlets that they know that it’s for the same campaign, so the branding around that is really important. So if your hashtag in twitter is going to a certain level of detail than that needs to also follow through on facebook and the facebook brandy needs to follow the branding that you have in your e mails and your email, brandon needs to be on the landing page or the donate page that you have on your website. So we’re really trying to make sure people understand that it’s not just sending them to donate form. That’s been on your site for eleven months, it’s sending them to donate form that’s branded towards what your campaign is, regardless of whether it’s end of year or not, so that you can really bring them in and let them know that everything you’re doing is targeted towards something, whether it’s an end of your campaign or whether it’s a campaign to save the ocean, you know, so that’s, really where that planning comes in place is well, is that you make sure that all of your touchpoint are branded towards what you’re trying to do. John wants a lot more about the importance of brandon as it relates to the end of your campaigning or not just important co-branding friend of yours cause in general, or just, well, certainly toward fund-raising gold. I think when you brand mean, so if you’re branding this pacific campaign and then you bring your it’s really to attract a new face or in this case, it was more online people, right? So you’re trying to grow your list through these different types of brands and appealing to people where, what, what strikes them and what’s going to make them react to you so that you can then go on and foster that relationship going forward? Okay, so i think one of the things that conservation international did well last years, they thought of a brand that spoke their mission, so it was people need nature to thrive. And so that was the brand that that was underneath conservation international for their end of your campaign, which was so fantastic because it spoke their mission, but then it also gave them away toe brand the unique pieces that were connected to the end of your campaign to a smaller micro campaign that was still a part of the entire organizations goal and mission overall. And so they picked something, and then that theme carried through all of their channels so that people knew that when they were getting something that said people need nature to thrive when they hit the website. It also said people need nature to thrive, and they were able to kind of carry on that slogan throughout all channels so that they could whenever they had a touchpoint or whenever somebody interacted with conservation international, it’s stayed on that campaign and gave them a really fresh look without stepping away from their brand. John, it sounds to me like leadership is critical in this because we’re talking about talk about different departments working together exact about them were going to your heart striking to the heart of the mission. Yes, and you have me on that and leadership non-profits is sometimes very like a university where you have siloed leadership. Will you have different organizations that are responsible for certain budgets, and sometimes they don’t play nice with each other and you can see organizations where they do have overlapped, so have a unified front within an organization where there are looking too a goal going forward for this type of campaign is very important. So it’s gotta come from the top. Yeah, and that’s the way it using the right it’s just it’s the top saying here’s, your number, meet your number but it’s really usually two or three levels below the top where it actually gets implemented, where the plan actually gets put into place and that person is unifying the team to get the results, and so the top is sort of they want and number and when they don’t need it in there, you know, there’s things to pay, but you know that that is a struggle that we see quite often in non-profits so weii deserved you try to help also bringing that together, bringing fresh ideas, bringing the best practices that we’re seeing from the hundreds of clients that were working with that have the year and campaigns, and then helping them get through those hurdles and get through those home. Oppcoll yeah, i was just going to say that, you know, this sort of two conversations that were having, you know, about branding and about, you know, leadership in the case of conservation international, specifically last year’s you’re in campaign or sort of one of the same, um, you know, having a brand, a strong brand is important for any organization, whether you know is for-profit or non-profit or, you know, just a kid with a lemonade stand, you know, on the side of the street and so, you know, we really try and cultivate that twelve months out of the year, and people need nature to thrive is actually sort of cia’s tagline, you know, we sort of adopted it, and so when it came time to, you know, do a year and campaign, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel like we literally just made our tagline the theme of our year in campaign, and then we put it on everything because that’s, what we do and that’s what we believe and so, you know, this sort of leadership approved idea, you know, sort of the core see i’m messaging is what we call it, you know, internally, you just have to tweak it a little bit and, you know, use it to fund design things and, you know, make sure it sort of has a visually consistent identity and that you’re telling compelling stories and all of a sudden you have yourself a year and campaign and the thing that i like about that is that when if you do have that trouble of siloed if you do have a campaign that has a specific theme, even if your direct mail team is on a completely different side of the building or is, you know, not even in the same office building as your media team, then because you have that common theme, even if you are silent and you’re working through those blocks that you’re trying to break through, if you have that common theme that gets hit onto your direct mail piece or gets put onto your social media board or gets set up on your donation form all of a sudden least it looks upon appearance that you are branded and cohesive, even if, on the back end you’re working with suri group or working with somebody else. Teo, get that strategy together so that all of those silos are speaking to each other. Karen, what else should we be saying about bring it back to end of your campaigns that we haven’t talked about yet? One of the things that we’re trying to do so that the title of the talk is thinking outside the box so we’re trying to get people to look at what they’re doing now. And maybe do something a little creative, so we’re going to talk about a couple of organizations, especially conservation, international and all they did something unique that helped them stand apart from all of the other organizations that are going to be fighting for the same donor’s because you, you know, there’s only so many people out in the world, i know we have over seven billion, but of those you are going to be fighting with organizations, not just the same ones of your mission, but just all organizations for those donors and there’s only so many dollars out there, and you want to win as many as possible for you. So what can you do to be unique? And so we’re going to give some ideas, and then our hope during the session is to get people to brainstorm together so that maybe they leave the this session with that one piece that’s going to make them creative. Are there more ideas that we haven’t talked about yet that you plan to share tomorrow? Absolutely. Well, okay, well, who wants to wants to throw another one out? I’ll go ahead, since you know we’re going to be talking. About some of our stuff, you know, just one of the things that we did, everyone has a light box at the end of the year, you know, you get a gun organization’s website and it pops up and you know, it says either you donate or, you know, you know, take this, you know, activist direction latto light boxes, okay, yeah, yeah, sure, let’s back-up said so i don’t have to explain why rebecca, because on tony martignetti non-profit radio, we have drug in jail, i am in charge in jail. The youngest may be the youngest, i’m not sure, but wait to have anybody drug so quick, quick parole, if you’ll explain what a light boxes so i will exercise my get out of jail free card and say that a light box, if you, you know, let’s, think of it it’s, like, sort of a non annoying pop up if you go to a website, if you go to most non-profit websites, i suspect you’ll see some right now as they’re getting ready for the end of your campaign, you know, will pop up sort of, you know, transparently, you know, over the main page and it will have, you know, a message, you know, and that message might be donated. Might be please take this action, you know, like save the whales cia doesn’t really do save the well stuff. I don’t know, i said that, but it just sort of came to mind what all of whales and you connects out of it and just go to the main site, okay? So you’ll see a lot of that a year and, you know, because we’re trying to get folks attention right off, you know, we don’t want them coming to our website and, you know, doing other things, you want him paying attention. John has something that was going to say a light box is a very good year at strategy. I mean, as far as gathering email addresses and growing your list prior to your end, to give you new people to connect with as part of your plan, lightbox has been very successful. Okay? Okay. Good christmas. Yes. So i’ll be quick. So it’s, you know, sort of a china tree strategy using light box. What we did is, you know, we had designed for us a light box where it was sort of tiled photos of both people and, you know, biodiversity, species, animals, and they literally started disappearing when you came to our site, you know, it said, i believe ignore them and they’ll go away that is using sort of an old classic and just putting a little bit of a creative twist on it, and that was an extremely successful both, you know, acquisition and fund-raising tool for us because it’s so emotionally powerful over northern, they’ll go away and, you know, just little things like that is what we want to really stress, you know, what our panel is? It doesn’t have to necessarily be something crazy, you know, you don’t need but with a clown, you know, sort of running all over your fund-raising marketing who knows things just i need, you know, some clever ideas that air on brand that, you know, sort of expand on, you know, best practices, you know, that the industry that you know you’ll get to hear, you know, places like we begun, okay, john, you want to wrap up, we just have a minute or so because you have to you have to depart shortly, so i’ll give you i’ll give you the parting words around end of your campaign. I think if you don’t have an end of your campaign, you need one and you need to plan and execute it, and the creative strategies are are sort of our this sizzle to the steak, right? So you need to do the creative strategy to drive and grow your grow your campaign’s awareness and get people more excited. And in this case, there last year is very successful, and i think it tapped into a different audience and your standard non-profit donating audience and i think also serbia murder is part of your campaign is you don’t necessarily only have to ask for money, you can ask for people to volunteer and participate in your organization in other ways as well. That was john murphy he’s, ceo of zurich group on seated next to him is chris coletta, social media coordinator, conservation international and next to me is karen collins, technical strategy consultant for the jury group or thank all fever for being guests. Thanks very much. Real pleasure. Thank you. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of pecan twenty twelve my thanks to everybody at b become earlier this month got live, listener love going out san francisco. I think i know who they are. You better be calling in shortly. Carpinteria, california, or carpinteria, california. Welcome, charleston, south carolina, and new bern, north carolina, which makes me think of my dear friend dave, also arlington, virginia. We got the coasts covered, west and east live, listener love out to all those folks. Right now. We take a break when we come back, time for tony’s, take two, and then our regular legal consultants, gene and emily, join us to talk about compensation. Clarity. Stay with me. Talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll lively conversation. Top trends. Sound advice, that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m samantha cohen from the american civil liberties union. I got more live listener love going out. Tokyo, japan. Welcome. Welcome back took it was frequent listener welcome back. Tokyo tony’s take to my block this week is the value of a cross on on the subway. I gave a hungry man some a bag of pastries that i had bought for a client. Teo cut up and, you know, putting their kitchen for them tio tohave during the day. And when he asked me if i have anything that that he could eat, i looked at the bag and i realized that it would i mean a lot more to him than it would to my client. So i gave him the bag of pastries, and and he enjoyed it. And it was it was actually it was very touching. He afterwards, ah, he looked over his shoulder and gave me, gave me a thumbs up, and i gave him a a wink back and what? It reminded me of his how much i have and how much a tiny, tiny fraction of what i have would mean to so many people who have so much less than what i have and trying to be more conscious of. That because there is there’s no there’s abundance in my life and it’s easy to take it for granted. And that subway episode ahh brought me back. T recognizing how fortunate i am tryingto stay conscious of that more often and there’s a little more on that, my blogged the post is the value of a quash sewn on my block. Is that tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, the twelfth of october and the forty third show of the year. Right now we have jean takagi and emily chan on the line. We have them, don’t we both excellent. Jean is principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the popular blawg at non-profit law block, dot com and he’s at g tak gt a k on twitter. Emily chan is an attorney at d’oh and she’s, principal contributor to the non-profit lob log she’s the american bar association’s twenty twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer and you can follow emily at emily chan at emily c h a m a million gene welcome back. Hi, tony. Hi, tony. Good to have you back. We’re talking this month. About compensation because it seems to flow from what emily and i talked about just a couple of weeks ago. So, emily, why don’t you? Why don’t you lead us into this from from last month? Sure, so are lots. So he talked about the private benefit rules as a tea ad buy squeezed in a very big phrase there the preventable cruise up to the reasonable miss, and we’re going to get not this show, but basically we’re going to look at the penalty that the irs usually will impose when they find an inappropriate benefit going. Teo insider as we talked about last week, ok, so now we’re really looking at, i guess, practically speaking, the kind of penalties that organizations should be very knowledgeable about and also very wary of so that they could follow the best practices and make sure they’re protecting their organizations. All right, you were cutting out a little bit, emily, but we were able to fix the sound quality. Just say that. Say that. Say that very, very rich and wordy phrase again from from last month that will talk more about just say that again because you cut out a little. Bit there, rebuttable presumption of reasonableness. All right, we look forward to getting into that gene. What are the general guidelines for compensation for? And who are we talking about? Whose compensation are we talking about? And what of those general rules? Well, practically speaking, we’re talking about the compensation of the executives. So that would be the executive director or ceo or president and of the cfo or treasure the organization has compensated. Chief financial officer. Okay. And what are the rules generally, that just that it has to be fair and not excessive, that that’s practically the rule, tony. So it can’t be excessive and and the way we try to judge that is we try to look at what comparable organizations air paying. And so the big question is, what is a comparable organization and what is a comparable position to compare? You know who we want to pay another organization and what they’re paying. Let me throw something interesting. Least interesting, too. May our maybe you had illegal minds may not find it interesting, but but i do. Over here, um, you said it’s only for executives, but what i see in ah lot at colleges. And universities, the highest paid people there are often coaches. Sports coach is like a basketball football coach at at a big big, you know, big name program does does this this excessive compensation apply to them? Also are on ly to the executives of the organization that’s a great question, tony. Thank you. We’ll bring you back next month. Thank you. Drinking area. When we’re talking about big institutions like colleges and universities and healthcare systems and big non-profit hospital, the range of what we call disqualified persons or insiders definitely goes up. People have substantial influence over the organization or a particular segment of that organization. So football coaches will probably be drawn in into that equation when they have a huge influence on on the institution itself. Okay, there are just more general rule beside the what we call the intermediate sanction rule their excess benefit transaction rolls the night i go into jargon deal for that. Oh, my god. Yeah. All right. We’re gonna get to that stuff, parent and broader doctrines that you could get in trouble for as well. Okay. Broader than just the executive. So it’s so it’s those who can exercise ah. Lot of control over the organization, wherever they are, wherever they are in the hierarchy. That’s a good way to think of it. Okay, cool. That’s the late person. I’m gonna turn it on. You wouldn’t know it the way i talk. Okay, let’s. See, what is this intermediate sanction? Emily what intermediate? To what? What’s, the more extreme. So the more extreme penalty comes from the world. We have that last month with private benefit private kermit, we’re technically really the penalty is reputation of sabat on that thing’s pretty severe, especially benefit confirmed it was only a little bit more than what it should have been. So what the irs produced then was something that they called their intermediate sanctions. Also the excess benefit transaction will, which instead of replicating tax exempt status, so actually impose a penalty tax on that access benefits so it can be imposed both on the insider who benefited. And it usually starts with a twenty five percent penalty talks with the excess amount, but also boardmember should know that they can also be taxed of ten percent of the excess amount if they knowingly, i’m approved. Ok, knowingly mean let’s, just stick. With compensation at this point, let’s not let’s, not get too the xx of benefits. We’re just talking about direct compensation, cash, cash compensation. So so boardmember sze, who knowingly approved it meaning meaning they knew that it was excessive, right? So they have actual knowledge of the transaction. And when i use the term access benefit, i don’t mean the stuff on top of what say base salary, just an excess benefit itself, which could be a large compensation. Oh, the way that i used that term in the way that fused with the rules. So um and boardmember, who would be considered knowingly approving such a transaction, would be someone who knows the terms of the transaction. I’m also aware of the possibility that that transaction might be excessive in violation of this excess benefit. Transactional, i’m and also, you know, failing to make those reasonable tends to figure out whether it is actually excessive, but this goes back to the fiduciary duties of directors and making sure that there, meeting their duty of carrie’s, loves their duty of loyalty and making sure that they’re making informed decisions and that it is in the best interest of the organization. By not saying something. That’s excessive. Okay, and we have talked about those those duties, those fiduciary duties previously can can. These penalties that are levied against boardmember is, can they? Can they be paid by the organization? Generally, no. So this would actually be triggered under state law of there are provisions that have to do is indemnification, which is the organization’s ability to cover expenses that would come out of situations like this. They’re being stewed in your capacity as like an officer, a director of the organization on dh. Generally, that probably not going to be okay under state law, no matter what. Okay, okay. Let’s. See? Okay, gene let’s, let’s. Turn to you and let’s talk a little about the this the rebuttable presumption of reasonableness that emily mentioned before. What? What what’s that how does that play in here? So these procedures are useful wherever you’re no good for you know that you’re going to compensate one of these insiders amount that is not obviously way below market level, but you should go through these procedures just the general rule. Anyway, if you’re anywhere near paying market rate compensation and their three step, the first step is getting advance approval by the board of directors before you enter into that compensation transaction. Actor thie interested party if there’s uninterested director in there is going to be compensated, obtained from that boat and does not participate in that. Okay? And that would include a gn executive officer who’s who’s on the board. Because of that position, ex officio boardmember they should they should abstain as well if we’re talking about their compensation. Right. Okay, so you get the advance approval with with the abstention of the person who’s involved what it would else duitz step two is reliance on appropriate comparability data. So we’re looking at comparable salaries from similarly situated organizations for similar positions of similar work. So it’s all about getting the right comparable. It might be done through salary surveys, working with professionals that our salary experts in the non-profit mary-jo or maybe looking at form nine nineties, they’re different concerns about just taking other organizations form nine nineties to make sure that the right comparable but a lot of smaller organizations do it that way. What what are those? Well, before we go on, what are those concerns about using the nine? Ninety? Well, they might not reflect in the nine, ninety special payments and vesting of, like deferred compensation. So some organizations may look like they’re playing a really high salary, but those were just the result of past. Things that have been obligations that were paid in the reporting year. So you can’t really consider that a part of the the annual salary, for example, of that executive that showing on the nine, ninety that would not be good. Comparable. Okay, so, i mean, can a small charity avoid having to hyre ah, compensation expert to do these comparability surveys? What are the other ways? Or maybe there is no other way. Well, there are some compensation surveys that are out there for free as well. You confined things from charity navigator. And i believe guys start might have some some compensation norvig wolber free. You have to be careful, though, because sometimes the ranges of the size of the organization don’t play in your favor. So, you know, they may say, well, this is the average compensation for organizations with annual budget between one million and ten million. And depending upon where you fit in that structure, using the average may not be appropriate for your organization. Right? Okay. Okay. Um, and then add a couple more things to the comparability that it’s? Because you brought a small organization a general rule for organizations with less than one billion and gross receipts toe have at least three. Comparable. So it’s. Not necessarily this. You know why spread search for comparability data. But tow have three is generally considered reasonable. And another thing to consider is this really just giving you an idea of the band with a salary that’s out there, but it would be problematic. Front organizations just look based purely on numbers and decide. Ok, just because it’s it’s in the band with that that’s appropriate on that kind of goes back to your example of the football coaches where sometimes just so you that if you keep pushing the upper limit of the band when you just start to see these ranges leaves up and up and you really do need to look at the performance and the duties that are being like that? Yes. Okay, of course. The right, the person’s performance as well. Not just what other people are paying somebody similar in a similar organization. Okay, thank somebody. Thank you. Look at the geography. Because i know in manhattan in san francisco, where we are the average salary’s going to be much higher than somewhere in des moines, iowa. Yeah, okay. Okay. And there’s one more part to the rebuttable presumption. Can you can you explain that in about a minute? Gene? Yeah, the third part is just timely an adequate documentation of the board action. So that means really putting it down in the minutes on getting those minutes approved by the next board meeting. So you just want to make sure that you’ve documented it and if you’ve got comparable, attach the comparable to the minutes to prove that the board has actually looked at these before making that determination and approval. All right, now that we’ve explained the three prongs of the rebuttable presumption gene, please explain what the hell a rebuttable presumption is that’s great, what what it does is it shift the burden from your organization have to prove that the salary is reasonable and shift it to the irs to prove that it’s unreasonable, which the irs doesn’t want to do because it takes a lot of work. So if you just go through these procedures, you kind of put a big barrier to the irs to go after you brew for paying excessive amount because you say i’ve used the procedures that treasury regulations have approved. This is the way it should be done in the iris used to get it back off at that point, unless they think they have a really big fight. So then write if you follow these procedures, the compensation is presumed to be reasonable. But the irs has the option, although it it’s unlikely that it would exercise it to rebut that presumption and try to prove that the compensation was unreasonable. Is that right? If they want to take it to court if there were. Okay. Okay. Likely. Okay, but it’s presumed rash reasonable if you follow the three prongs that you laid out, correct. Okay, we’re going to take a break. And when we come back, jean and emily and i are going to a little role play exercise, we’re going to be the board of directors and we’re going to decide on somebody’s compensation. Um, i don’t know one of you two is going to chair the meeting, so you’re welcome over this break to figure out who that’s going to be and i’m going to be a boardmember and then the other person be boardmember too. So stay with us for that role play. Exercise don’t know. What’s going to happen. I hope you’ll stay with us. Talking. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com how’s your game want to improve your performance, focus and motivation? Than you need. Aspire, athletic, consulting, stop second guessing yourself. Move your game to the next level, bring back the fun of the sport, help your child build confidence and self esteem through sports. Contact dale it aspire, athletic consulting for a free fifteen minute power session to get unstuck. Today, your greatest athletic performance is just a phone call away at eight a one six zero four zero two nine four or visit aspire consulting. Dot vp web motivational coaching for athletic excellence aspire to greatness. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Durney i got more live listener love laurel, maryland bend, oregon, and tokyo. Welcome to our second listener in tokyo. We got more tokyo listeners than we have oregon or south carolina or north carolina listeners maurin tokyo than, uh, most other states listening. Okay? Jean emily, we’re talking about compensation, compensation, clarity, and we’re going to our role play board board meeting now. Who’s the chair. I’m okay. Genes. The chair. Emily, you and i are board members or way just regular boardmember zor is one of our compensation under discussion or what? I think we’re about boardmember okay, but neither of us has our compensation under consideration. We removed that person’s removed. Okay. All right, go ahead. Jean. You’re gonna share the meeting. Okay, tony so right now we’re talking about approving the compensation of the candidate who is going to be our executive. Wait a minute. We didn’t approve. We didn’t prove last month’s meeting meeting minutes. What kind of what kind of foisting? Of ah, fake what? We didn’t approve last minutes less months. Meaning melkis consent agenda earlier, tunney and now we’re on the second part of our meeting. We’re okay. All right, go ahead. I’m taking my time, taking my fiduciary duty very seriously. I don’t care, loyalty and what’s my third fiduciary duty. Besides karen loyalty, a lot of people like this, they obedience obedience. Okay, well, i’m not all right. Well, i mean, i’m failing on three, but but i’m taking my first two very seriously. All right, go ahead. Emily. Emily obviously doesn’t care, but she’s like lester, let me see lackluster boardmember i hope your term is up soon. Emily all right, okay, so we’ve got an executive director that we need to hire, and this executive director is pushing us for a salary of one hundred thousand dollars and the possibility of bonuses of up to twenty thousand dollars for pizza. We’ve got a million bucks in our budget, and we’re not really sure whether approve this compensation or not. He looks like a great candidate, but there’s some other candidates out there as well. What do you think, tony? Should should we hire this person that the salary they’re asking for? Well, do we have any comparable data by organizations that are similar to ours? Go thin geographics and also annual budget on dh with that data also be comparable in terms of this person’s responsibilities. Emily, i think you were convicted. You right? Collecting this data? Yeah. So i researched some organizations that of similar type similar size and similar roles of executive directors. And i found three different data points. So, uh, one and these they’re all in our geographical area. One is eighty thousand one. Report ninety thousand and another one report. One hundred and ten thousand. Okay. We’re looking at one hundred thousand with the possibility of a twenty thousand dollar bonus. What do you think, tony? Um, i guess the bass sounds or so we have. Eighty ninety. First of all, i’m assuming that emily knows what she’s doing when she says that these things are similar. And i’m putting a lot of faith in her because i could be personally liable if this turns out to be excessive compensation. Um, only if you know that it’s excessive, sonny, but that’s. All right, that’s. Right. Ok. Raise a good point about the line. What do you need? A reliable source. Okay, well, your outstanding young lawyer. So i’ll assume that you’re on. You’re on the board. Very in doing this. Surveys what i brought. To the board meeting, and we’re going to attach them to the minutes of the okay, i like the i’d liketo like the base of one hundred. I’m not sure about the extra bonus of twenty family. What do you think about that extra bonus of twenty when the high of our comparable is only one ten? I don’t think it’s necessarily problematic if we have adequate justification for allowing that for example, if thiss opportunity with this executive director is probably going to pass us by, we are in a bind because we’re now doing an executive director succession that we didn’t anticipate and the organization’s going to be really hurt if we don’t find somebody who’s qualified and this is the most qualified person we found and we’re actually getting a really good deal for this person and it is discretionary, so it’s going to be up to the board at the end of the year and we have put a limit on it, you know, maybe we should evaluate again looking at our revenues and looking again at the comparability data whether twenty thousand is reasonable, but i’m not opposed to putting the opportunity of a bonus. Into the contract right now, that’s. A bunch of malarkey. I’m walking out of this meeting. Did you hear me? Did you? My footsteps and i just slammed the door closed, proposed i’ll ask to see if there’s a motion to approve a one hundred thousand dollars based salary with a possibility of a ten thousand dollar bonus. And we will actually look at the possibility of a further ten thousand dollar bonus if we hit certain revenue goals that might allow us to look at other comparable, do you think that’s reasonable? All right, i’ll come back into the meeting. All right? I’ll go along with that. We have to wrap up our meeting very quickly. Yes, i would approve that. Okay, so then we make the most of it. Tony wilbekin were approved way as we wrap this up, being the diligent boardmember right? And just a reminder that we need to have adequate documentation and our board minutes. So i’m going to write down the terms of the transaction. We approve the date it was approved, the board members that were present during the debate. Who voted. I’m not going to attack the comparability data on there and as well document the fact that we followed our conflict of interest policy and removed the executive director from the conversation that was emily chan she’s, a maternity at neo, the non-profit exempt organizations law group and our board chair was jean takagi he’s, the principal of neo. You’ll find them both blogging at non-profit law blogged, dot com, gene and emily, thank you very much. My pleasure. I hope you will be here next week because we’ll be talking about leadership with normal sanski he’s, a consultant and co editor of you and your non-profit that’s a book and he shares his advice on non-profit leadership, his premises. Everything starts with leadership also linked in news. Maria simple, the prospect finder and our prospect research contributor, has two new offerings from linked in board connect to help you find the right people to serve on your board. Hopefully you get better board members and we just had and reasons to call, reveals touchpoint for making contact with the people you want to talk to have you joined are linked in group pakistan is in, i’m telling you, pakistan is a member. Are you in the lincoln group along with pakistan? Continue the conversations with our guests in the lincoln group i’m on twitter you can follow me the show’s hashtag is non-profit radio. I’m also on foursquare. We can connect any of those places. Check us out on facebook next week i will have a new way to wish you good luck the way performers do around the world have been doing this for weeks. So right now you’re still with last week, i’m wishing you a nail in your tire from estonia. No, comey, our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer. The show’s social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules today’s show dedicated to my dear friend dave. Ironically, what i remember about him most is his laughter and his smile. I’m very sorry, dave, that you were suffering so much hope you were with me next week. Friday one to two p, m eastern at talking alternative dot com. Hyre durney durney i didn’t think that shooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get anything. Cubine hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Are you stuck in your business career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Buy-in you’re listening to talking alt-right network at www. Dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. Be more effective, be happier. And make more money. Improving communications. That’s. The answer. Dahna hyre

Corporatization Redux

Courtesy of 401(K) 2012 on Flickr.
Recently I posted about how I see nonprofits acting more like companies, and being treated as for-profits by state and federal regulators. In just the past few days there’s more evidence of overseers regulating charities like companies.

Two weeks ago, Ken Feinberg, the Obama administration’s special master on executive compensation, complained about top executives’ pay at Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, AIG, Morgan Stanley and lots of other companies.

Last week, Stephanie Strom reports “Lawmakers Seeking Cuts Look At Nonprofit Salaries.” The reported concern among federal and state authorities is with salaries at executive levels.

Corporate salaries under the microscope, and a week later, nonprofit salaries. That’s quite a parallel.

Man at IRS

It goes further. The IRS’s director of exempt organizations is issuing warnings about nonprofits’ unrelated business income, or UBI. There’s tax to pay (UBIT, go figure) on income earned by nonprofits that is outside their charitable mission. This is a technical area (starting with the issue, “what income is unrelated”) and within the purview of more august personages than me.

“Salaries & Income Reporting Under Scrutiny”. Couldn’t that be a headline reporting on the oil, financial services or auto industry?

At the same time, there’s the retirement of the head of the Association of Fundraising Professionals. Rather than retire, she should go on to lead the American Bankers Association.