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Nonprofit Radio for January 31, 2020: CEO/Chair Relationship

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My Guests:

Alex Counts: CEO/Chair RelationshipYour CEO and board chair need to forge and maintain a strong partnership. Alex Counts shows us how. He’s a consultant, and founder of Grameen Foundation.



Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward: #20NTC
Amy Sample Ward, CEO of NTEN and our technology and social media contributor, joins for a quick chat on the 2020 Nonprofit Technology Conference. Nonprofit Radio will be there and you should too!




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[00:00:14.14] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:16.74] spk_0:
radio big non profit ideas for the

[00:00:19.67] spk_2:
other 95%.

[00:00:44.44] spk_0:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown in taquito amino acid E mia If you brought me down with the sappy idea that you missed today’s show CEO chair relationship, your CEO and board chair need to forge and maintain a strong partnership. Alex Counts shows us how he’s a consultant and founder of Grameen Foundation on

[00:00:48.09] spk_2:
Tony’s Take. Two planned giving for the decade were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:18.14] spk_0:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Now let’s, uh, meet Alex counts Pleasure to welcome him. He’s adjunct professor of public policy at the University of Maryland and a non profit consultant. He’s founder of Grameen Foundation, which has grown to become a leading international humanitarian

[00:01:31.93] spk_2:
organization. He’s got a book Changing

[00:01:41.95] spk_0:
the World Without Losing Your Mind. Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship, which is a chronicle of philanthropy. Editor’s pick. He’s at Alex counts dot

[00:01:47.38] spk_2:
com and at Alex counts. What was your name again? Alex counts. Thank

[00:01:49.06] spk_4:
you. It’s great to be here.

[00:01:53.22] spk_2:
Pleasure. Thank you for coming into the city on the studio. Um, tell us about the founding

[00:01:58.65] spk_0:
of Grameen Foundation. Interesting roots in Bangladesh.

[00:02:00.69] spk_4:
Yeah, I was is a college student. I was taken with the work Mohammad Yunus was doing to empower the destitute women of Bangladesh through micro credit, and he would go on to win the Nobel Prize. But I kind of it was Grameen Bank. That was Grameen Bank. And I had this vision in college of If we could take his model and exported to other countries where there is poverty, that would be could be a real breakthrough. It was simplistic, but and I But it was basically a good idea. And so I went in, apprenticed with him for about a decade in Bangladesh, and then I Then I said at one point, it’s time to start kind of an international hub for helping people apply the Grameen Bank ideas to other countries. And so he said, Well, here’s $6000 which I thought was a lot of money to start an organization with. It wasn’t but we were just kind of on a wing and a prayer started What became growing foundation in 97 on Guy was completely unprepared and all sorts of ways to run a non profit and start one. But we went forward and it worked out.

[00:03:07.30] spk_0:
You you say sort of hastily because you’ve got a lot going on. You had a lot going on 10 years living in Bangladesh. You fluent in de she Bengali Bangla. Is it Bangalore? Bengali? Is it? It’s It’s

[00:03:11.32] spk_4:
Bengali and English. It’s Bangla in being Ali.

[00:03:14.13] spk_3:
Okay, Um,

[00:03:15.10] spk_2:
I’ve been

[00:03:21.23] spk_0:
there. I spent I spent two weeks between Bangladesh just in Dhaka and Sir Lanka, which is also a beautiful country. Yeah,

[00:03:23.50] spk_2:
my sense of Bangladesh

[00:03:24.46] spk_0:
was ah, lot of poverty and a lot of very hardworking people. Thes tiny businesses in the micro stalls is I’m thinking of old DACA, but people working hard and you know, whatever their niche was, uh I

[00:03:39.12] spk_2:
saw a lot of hard working, dedicated people,

[00:04:10.25] spk_4:
Absolutely both in the cities and in the rural countryside where I spent a lot of my time and learn. That’s why I really learned Bengali well, but it is my mentor and board chair, Susan Davis. So I met in Bangladesh. She was a Ford Foundation representative and I was, Ah, Fulbright scholar initially, and she said, Listen, Alex, she’s a lot of these pithy statement She said, In a country that doesn’t have enough jobs, by far doesn’t have a social safety net. You have two choices. You work for yourself tiny undercapitalized business in most cases or you starve. And so people, whether they’re intramural ability, is robust or more limited. Starvation is not a great option. So people try to start these tiny businesses.

[00:04:22.68] spk_0:
That’s when I saw yeah, s O. That’s the micro micro lending. And then Mohammed as and all I can imagine, what someone could do with it isn’t even $1000. Is that too much?

[00:05:00.83] spk_4:
So the loans for the first decade of Grameen were typical. Loan was about $70. So your way you’re buying, you know, five chickens and you know you know how to raise chickens. But you never had more money to have more than one u five chickens. You sell the eggs, you pay off the loan with the sales of the eggs. And at the end of the year, you have five chickens that air your asset maybe more assets than you’ve ever had a productive assets you’ve ever had in your life. And Mohammad Yunus is in sight. Was but build a banking system that can actually be viable through making $70 loans and then $100 loans if they pay back and later, larger amounts on and and And that was the essence of his brilliant innovation.

[00:05:15.94] spk_0:
And you were, You were how many years that Green Foundation as founder and CEO

[00:05:21.27] spk_4:
18 years s. I ran it for its 1st 18 years. It was a It was a fantastic ride. And again when we finally started, get some headway is when I realized that a couple things that I need to be fundraiser in chief. That wasn’t something I could delegate and that I needed to craft a very important relationship with my board share.

[00:05:40.90] spk_2:
And those

[00:05:42.86] spk_4:
two insights probably where the, you know, helped us reach kind of escape velocity and get it to erase 10 $2025 million in the year, as opposed to remain a little tiny, non

[00:05:51.46] spk_0:
profit. What a skilled guest you bring in the board. The board chair relationship so smoothly. So not like the boorish host of the show. We’re just abruptly changed course.

[00:06:04.48] spk_2:
All right, so, uh, yeah, so we’re here to talk about Well, you know, we’ll shout

[00:06:08.30] spk_0:
out your book a couple times, uh, changing the world without losing your mind. But

[00:06:12.67] spk_2:
we want to focus

[00:06:23.81] spk_0:
on something that I saw an article that you had written in The Chronicle of Philanthropy about the CEO board chair relationship. Susan Davis was one of your one of your chair. Was she your first? She’s my

[00:06:28.99] spk_4:
third chair. But when we finally I finally got the relationship right was with her, and I give her most of the credit for that. I kind of fumbled it with the 1st 2 board chairs, mainly my fault on dhe. She helped me kind of figure out how to make that just a magical relationship

[00:06:43.90] spk_0:
on dhe critical to the success of an organization you saw Grameen on. You felt it. You saw it and felt it in your relationship with Susan. You saw the organization benefiting and you felt it personally.

[00:07:44.00] spk_4:
I had an ally. I wasn’t so alone. She gained my trust on She would sometimes, you know, step in and do things that I was either incapable of doing or just didn’t have the skills. I mean, it’s just a perfect relationship on. And, you know, she wasn’t the prototypical white male businessman in their sixties with a lot of money, but she brought other assets, and and then, you know, we were ableto have a more traditional board chairs coming after her. But she was in the roll for six and 1/2 years, and she, you know, the the article you mentioned in The Chronicle of Philanthropy. The origin of that was I was giving a talk at The Chronicle about my book and about how I went from a completely underprepared non profit executive director, succeeding on some level. And I just kept coming back to my relation with Susan on then the couple of four chairs that followed her, and they said, Would you write an article on that on that you you mentioned so many times you’re talking? I said I’d be thrilled to, and It was a pretty narrow topic, but it got a good response and got me here to be talking with you.

[00:08:10.38] spk_0:
Your life has led you to this moment. All points of it’s all downhill from here. Pretty much non profit radio. I feel bad after our lunch, then

[00:08:11.79] spk_4:
downwardly mobile life.

[00:08:13.24] spk_0:
I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Uh,

[00:08:19.52] spk_2:
all right. So let’s talk about, um Well, the let’s get into some of your some

[00:08:22.27] spk_0:
of your advice around this around this relationship, you siphoned it down into 10. I don’t know if we’ll get time for 10 because we want to talk a little about Cem Cem, General governance. But

[00:08:32.03] spk_2:
why don’t we, uh why don’t we just

[00:08:39.14] spk_0:
tease the 1st 1? We got a minute before before first break about, um, respect the chair needs to earn respect if that the

[00:09:14.59] spk_4:
chair is seen is just a kind of a defender of the CEO, uhm, and someone who’s just tryingto make his or her life easy and keep the bored out of their hair or in any other way doesn’t really have the respect to the board. Then his or her job is much harder because the board chair is kind of a liaison between the staff and the executive director and the rest of the board. And that board share has to earn the respect of both parties in order. Play that bridging role effectively. And Susan did it. Sometimes people do it by writing $1,000,000 checks, but Susan didn’t have that at her disposal of time. So she did it in other ways but was able to get earn the respect of me and the staff. But very importantly, the the rest of the board.

[00:09:24.62] spk_0:
All right, I’ve seen board chairs that were wealthy and wrote big checks and still didn’t have the respect of the board. So if there’s respect based on that, I think it’s kind of shallow and it doesn’t necessarily follow even. Okay, let’s take our first

[00:09:38.40] spk_2:
break wegner-C.P.As They go beyond the numbers. They’ve got videos, effective governance.

[00:09:43.61] spk_0:
For starters. We’re gonna talk a little about that toward the end of the show. Um,

[00:09:47.70] spk_2:
also i nine

[00:09:51.74] spk_0:
tips. If you happen to have immigrant employees, they’ve also got a video on high impact grant

[00:09:53.83] spk_2:
proposals, sexual harassment awareness, way beyond the numbers. This is not just

[00:10:16.94] spk_0:
your average accountancy, for God’s sake, on other videos, you gotta wegner-C.P.As dot com, Click Resource Is and recorded events. I just got late breaking news that Amy Sample Ward will be calling in around the bottom of the hour. Onda will spend about five minutes talking about 20 NTC, the 2020 non profit technology conference, which is in coming up in March in Baltimore. So I know you wanna hear her at the bottom of the hour. Um, in the meantime, let’s go back to ah CEO chair relationship.

[00:10:33.01] spk_2:
Yes. Oh, I don’t I don’t think

[00:10:40.81] spk_0:
money first necessarily creates respect, And if it does, I think it’s a kind of a shallow Well, it’s one

[00:10:42.10] spk_4:
thing to earn. The respect is the board share. You have to show that you’re invested. Ah, and so Susan would show that by showing up prepared by doing her homework. Talking with Helio money and writing a check that is meaningful for someone and meaningful for the organization is another way. But you’re right. It’s no way incomplete. You need to be a fair minded. You need to kind of promote the right kind of dialogue of the board level craft agendas that makes sense that you know, Don’t don’t let the board becoming their micromanaging or rubber stamp, but occupy that really nice middle ground. Yeah, it’s All I’m saying is, is that it’s possible to earn the respect of the board, even with bored with some wealthy people. If you’re yourself aren’t personally wealthy by doing other things on that, some people I think some people just regard it is you know you need the board. Share is just absolute mandatory to be made your wealthiest person, the board and I might have thought that. But I saw that. It doesn’t need to be.

[00:11:38.93] spk_0:
Yeah, I would reject

[00:11:42.13] spk_3:
that. Um, by

[00:11:42.47] spk_0:
the same token, you do want the board chair tohave the back of the CEO in times of crisis. Well,

[00:11:56.76] spk_4:
right? I mean, people, you know, have all non profit CEOs if, unless they’re completely risk of hers, make mistakes, mismanaged things mismanage external relationships on dhe, you know, it’s it’s, I think when our new chairs in place, how they react to the first time that happens on whether they both publicly and privately support the CEO on dhe make them feel secure in the aftermath of their bungle eyes. Probably a lot will determine. A lot of everything will go after that on Susan. You know, a time would come maybe six months later, where Susan would talk with me and her successors, who are also very good and say, you know, that thing that you did in six months ago? They didn’t work out, you know? What did you learn from it? Andi? Are we Do we have things in place to prevent that from happening again? But at the time when you’re at your low point and at risk of making further poor decisions in the aftermath of trying to cover up or deal with one bad decision, having the board share be empathetic and supportive and not pointing a finger is I found a central

[00:12:54.10] spk_0:
is the board is looking to them for leadership. You know howto way still behind this CEO or are we not?

[00:13:19.11] spk_4:
How do we digest this, right? And then that’s where the board chair’s leadership did not gloss over. It does not say this mistake was meaningless, but also not to say panic, but to say I’m on top of this. I’m gonna disclose to you the board what’s going on in a level appropriate to your role. I’m working with the E D. And

[00:13:19.32] spk_2:
now if it’s

[00:13:19.72] spk_4:
a life endangering mistake for the organization that it might go under,

[00:13:24.10] spk_2:
then I think

[00:14:07.87] spk_4:
you need to take a little different tact. But if it’s just a setback and embarrassing though it may be, you know you need to really inspire confidence in everyone. But also just, you know, to get the best out of the CEO of the executive director. You know, first and foremost is have them feel like you’re their ally, not someone who’s trying to, you know, embarrassed. And I’ve seen this. I’ve served on boards for all you have and others listeners have board shares to whatever. There’s a mistake. They feel it’s kind of a public embarrassment for them, and their job is to avoid blame themselves. Maybe they have public standing, and then that that has on and particularly that could kind of poison the relationship with the E D. You know, nothing flat. Yeah.

[00:14:09.12] spk_2:
Do you? You have a

[00:14:20.00] spk_0:
preference for executive director versus CEO? I’ve had guests prefer the CEO. Others say it doesn’t really matter much. Do you have ah preference, you

[00:15:06.71] spk_4:
know, in the organization’s I’ve served in. It’s been I’ve been the president and CEO. There’s some executive directors that aren’t the chief executive officer that sometimes is the chair in executive chair. That’s interesting. So Esso and again I’m not. I’m not a super techno person on this, but I think smaller nonprofits tend to be. You talk about AIDS on, and sometimes they don’t have a vote at the board level, whereas in large organizations, that tends to be a president CEO with a non executive chair. And I’m just, you know, and even when grooming Foundation was small, somehow we adopted that nomenclature, which at the time I didn’t care about or think it all about. I was just trying to raise enough money to pay this, you know, costs the next month. But anyway, that’s that. That’s what we adopted. Yeah,

[00:15:10.49] spk_2:
okay, but now you have the

[00:15:13.66] spk_0:
luxury of looking back and snickering. That’s right! And admitting that the first to board chairs the relationships warrant as robust, as supportive as they could have been made

[00:15:22.92] spk_2:
at the time,

[00:15:26.10] spk_4:
I viewed the board and managing my relation with the chair, and fundraising is kind of necessary. Evils not, is not as something to be the cornerstone of building the organization. That was That was my fundamental mistake until I finally got it right.

[00:15:37.80] spk_2:
Let’s talk a little about

[00:15:46.84] spk_0:
selection of, ah, board chair. Do you like to see it come from? The board would like to see. I’ve seen organizations that have a assistant assistant chair, rice chair, vice chair, executive vice chair, and then it’s presumed that they’re gonna move into the chair. You like to see that kind of

[00:15:56.58] spk_2:
ladder? Well, first,

[00:16:44.61] spk_4:
I think every rule in terms of building aboard you should be, you know, willing almost every really should be willing to break. So one point. We had a very well known, very wealthy person joining our board, and we thought about installing them his chair for more or less the moment that joined the board. And that might have worked. But we didn’t didn’t come to pass, but in general I think you want someone of your chair who served on your board with distinction for, you know, three or four years at least. I like the idea of a vice chair, but I’m a little out made out of the mainstream on this I don’t think that vice chair should necessarily be the chair elect. I’d like to see a vice chair in that role really perform so that they earn the chair. Roll a za po. And that’s why sometimes having to vice chairs, I’ve seen that work nicely. But oftentimes the vice chair is

[00:16:47.08] spk_0:
the two vice chairs are sort of competing to be that really like we friendly competition for the chair shit. German ship.

[00:16:53.76] spk_6:
It’s a

[00:16:56.00] spk_4:
secondary aspect. Yeah, it’s Ah, a TTE The point We had our vice chair on the West Coast and I thought that having a second vice chair who was quite busy when entered a And

[00:17:05.04] spk_5:
that’s what one

[00:17:05.41] spk_4:
things that happens. You can’t predict a vice Jared chair can enter the role in a semi retirement, have a lot of time to put in. And next thing you know, they’re appointed as happened to me, a CZ the as the CEO of a publicly traded company and their ability to put time in is changed. So we we had a vice chair who was the dean of ah of a university in a university on the West Coast. I said, Well, what if we had a vice chair on the East Coast also to kind of cover this part of the country and on. So that worked.

[00:17:34.62] spk_2:
But in another way, was

[00:17:35.89] spk_4:
a kind of let’s, let’s see, between the two of them, which one of them, you know, is it inspires the confidence of the board on shows the commitment that would make them the ideal. You know, successor chair.

[00:17:48.14] spk_2:
How do you like to

[00:18:10.16] spk_0:
break in? I think my voice just crack. How’d you? 14. Huh? How? Let’s give some authoritative. Ah, tony. Er, how do you like to, uh ah, inaugurate the relationship? New chair? You presumably. As you’re suggesting. You know, if you worked with him 3 to 4 years, So the non new person to you. But I knew in that relationship. You in that position.

[00:18:12.91] spk_2:
How do you like to

[00:18:13.67] spk_0:
kick off the that new relationship? Well,

[00:18:17.02] spk_4:
in an ideal world and running a nonprofit where you never have enough resource is and you’re always trying to cram 14 months of work into 12 months and you can always do this.

[00:18:26.54] spk_2:
But an ideal

[00:18:26.99] spk_4:
world. I’d like to spend a good kind of a good day with the person you know, both with a structured agenda and somewhat unstructured, maybe going to a baseball game together just to really get to know them and bond with them, if that’s possible. On

[00:18:39.97] spk_2:
the other

[00:18:40.21] spk_4:
thing that kind of evolved. This is, you know, I’m thinking back what work is that each board share wanted gonna put their stamp on the their leadership not to not to just contradict or do something different than what the prior wanted done, but

[00:18:55.72] spk_2:
something that

[00:18:56.11] spk_4:
they had seen. Maybe work in another non profit or in the corporate sector. And

[00:18:59.91] spk_2:
I would just

[00:20:59.49] spk_4:
say, unless it didn’t make any sense to me. I said, Let’s let’s do that Let’s you know this person didn’t kind of imposed this idea when they were, say, vice chair, just to give you two examples. You Bob bike Feld, who succeeded Susan in the role he thought that it was. It was a very important from a governess perspective to gather a couple board leaders and the head and our general counsel on me every six months to basically evaluate the performance of each and every board member in person and on, and so and you know when people were doing really well. So well, let’s let’s prepare a resolution commending them at the next meeting. Will we draft that if the person wasn’t referring? Well, well, who’s gonna take them aside? We’ve never done that before. But it was just something he thought you know would work. And I just said, You know, you want to bring that in. This is gonna be one of your signature things that comes in your first year. I’m totally behind it. Let’s make it happen. Or another thing he wanted is for me to bring in that. Susan wasn’t kind of didn’t That wasn’t her style, but it’s like let let Bob lead the way he wants to. And let me not just grudgingly say, OK, I’ll do that if you want, But I think this could be a great idea. And you, Bob also pushed me to write for the first time emergency succession plan, which I embarrassed to say that, you know, 10 years in the Grameen Foundation, I had never even know what that was. But and he said, you know, write, write up a memo for those of your listeners and aren’t aware you know, what should we do if you’re suddenly incapacitated or killed? And and so I put it off for a while, it was more confronting than I thought, but I finally did get it done. And that was something he achieved in his first year. Um, and again I was I was just kind of trusted that that was something of useful. And I put my full attention to kind of implementing a couple of ideas that he had and and when every new board chair came in, they kind of had a few ideas. And I would just unless they sound crazy to me and I I need to get the convinced I would just, you know, not just back from kind of half heartedly, but fully

[00:21:01.64] spk_2:
say some more about

[00:21:02.28] spk_0:
the semi annual board evaluate individual board member evaluation process.

[00:21:07.64] spk_2:
Well, you know,

[00:21:19.90] spk_4:
we would gather on a table. I think we did it a few times. That can recall, and it was no one ever called in. Our vice chair flew in from San Diego for it. We did it in Washington and literally, you know, it was just it was sickness. See,

[00:21:22.95] spk_2:
one of the

[00:21:23.40] spk_4:
things I’ve come to believe that came from Susan. The Before Bob is that term limits are

[00:21:29.14] spk_2:
kind of

[00:21:31.76] spk_4:
a quick fix kind of mandate, and that really what you want board members to do is to is to kind of go through their orientation and

[00:21:37.70] spk_2:
then to go

[00:22:09.31] spk_4:
into a period of what I call High Performance is a board member where they’re giving it their all their money, their time, their reputation, their con connections, etcetera. And then ultimately, all board members, I think, ultimately go into what is called coasting, where they’re just they’re not really giving their all because their interest is in another organization. And so Bob’s this term limits air saying, Well, most people go to coasting after six years, so let them just term out at six years. But the truth is, some people term out. Some people go into that mode after 18 months, and some are going strong in 18 years. So this was a mechanism to just evaluate the kind of the wherein the life cycle was each individual on the board where what should they be commended for? On what should they maybe be taken aside and said, you know, board member ex. You know, if you could get back to performing like you did four years ago in terms of showing up prepared, participating discussions, your committee assignments, raising money, giving money, You know, we think you should re up for the board when your turn comes up. But if not you, maybe not. Ah, and that can’t be done. The blunt instrument of term limits or other things. This

[00:22:42.14] spk_2:
is this. We would

[00:23:01.77] spk_4:
spend 34 hours together evaluating every single person aboard. And how might we support them better. But how might we ask them to support us more? And you can’t? You can’t take a cookie cutter to that. And so it was. It was a pretty rigorous process, but it was. It worked, and it made the team that was at the table. They’re just feel like they were in a position to, and it had them participate differently. This is the vice chair chair of the Governance Committee and the general counsel me in the chair. You know, we would then pay attention. More panel, evaluating each number individually, correct. And

[00:23:17.25] spk_2:
and then once you start

[00:23:54.67] spk_4:
that, then you know, you kind of observe the board in a different way. When you know you’re gonna be six months later doing that again and you start to think, Gosh, might I pull this board member aside even now and commend them or redirect them a little bit even if I’m not the chair? Because I know that this evaluation and it creates a kind of accountability because we told the board that we were doing this. It wasn’t done in secret eso it was rather than have ah, this kind of straitjacket of term limits. We created this kind of culture of accountability, of board that just brought out the best in people. And when their interests moved on, they kind of voluntarily said, You know, this will be my final term and thank you all for whether I served for three years or 13 years on it. Just for me. It worked a lot better.

[00:24:20.39] spk_0:
Your ah contrary and in terms of the mainstream, thinking about board term limits, yes, but you have this important semi annual evaluation as well, so that a CZ your nerves, you said people will either recognize that they’re not performing, or they’ll bluntly be told that they’re not performing TX stations,

[00:24:27.96] spk_4:
right? That’s and it takes effort on

[00:24:29.76] spk_2:
because this is a lot of time

[00:24:30.60] spk_0:
commitment. How big? I’m sure the Grameen board grew over time when you left. How many people, you

[00:24:36.52] spk_6:
know, I like

[00:24:37.33] spk_0:
value waiting. Yeah, I’ve heard of much

[00:25:10.86] spk_4:
smaller and much larger board’s working, although I’m not quite sure how. But I think the optimal number aboard if they’re one of the responsibilities is raising money. The optimal number is between 15 and 20 and that’s what it was for almost the entirety of my time there, I think over 20 you get some negative dynamics, including, you know, people don’t show up. They’re not even noticed because the numbers are too big. And if you get under 15 you know, you really need a lot more fundraising muscle than you unless you just have a bunch of billionaires on the board. And so it was always. It was always in the high teens on, though I gave myself authority to have up to 25 on the bylaws, but gave us authority. But we never we will always, always between 15 and 20 right?

[00:25:23.08] spk_2:
So this is a big time

[00:25:23.82] spk_0:
commitment because Now you’re doing between 30 and 40 evaluations per year because you’re evaluating each person semi annually and several hours devoted to, ah, a conversation with each one twice a

[00:25:46.59] spk_4:
year. And the follow up that you promise, saying they’re there that after each board member would just say so what feedback or what? Commendation or accolade or redirection, Do we need to give this board member based on our discussion and that that would mostly fall to the five of us in the room

[00:26:01.15] spk_0:
and there was implicit in that s o. Some board members are getting commended on brothers or not, but we all know that we’re all being evaluated. So when it comes time for commendations, some names air left out, that’s where it was only,

[00:26:06.05] spk_4:
um, you know, it was

[00:26:06.63] spk_6:
only twice

[00:26:55.17] spk_4:
in our history where we actually had to take a board member side and urged them, not Thio run for re election. So if when this works well, it’s really becomes an informal accountability process where people opt out before they have to be kind of pushed out. And, uh um, and yet you need to be willing to do that if the time comes, and in one case, you know, way took a board member aside and we just said, It’s you know, it’s time for you to step aside and is interesting He said it that years later he told me he said, Well, as mad as hell at the time, but you and the chair were right. I just couldn’t see it then. And eso it’s that magical thing where people basically, whenever there flames, starts to be not so bright for in terms of the, you know, being a champion of the board, they just they know it and they and everyone knows it. And they just say again, Allah, I’ll serve out my term and I’ll step down and again whether that’s three years into their service or 15 years, it’s just based on. Are they giving it their best? And

[00:27:10.43] spk_2:

[00:27:10.61] spk_4:
everyone you know people’s interests move on. I mean, it’s a natural human phenomenon. Yeah,

[00:27:17.33] spk_0:
yeah. Very interesting. Interesting process. You mentioned election of board re election of board members. That was that not managed by an executive committee just deciding whether someone would remain Who were the electors, the whole board, the

[00:28:36.84] spk_4:
whole the whole board Now there’s a nominating what we close it in our model. We had both the governance committee that worked on our kind of internal governance, and the nominating committee was merged in the same committee and another boards I’ve been on Those are two separate things and on and, you know, when you only have 15 18 members. There are only so many committees you can have when your larger boards could have more. But yeah, it, in this case, the default was when someone’s three year term came up. Um, you think the default is that they’re gonna be reelected if they want to be. But there is a process that again the governance committee chair is part of that group that is, that meets every six months on day would take what are our discussions and bring them into the governance committee. Um, but Maur, I think that committee was more about adding new people to the board more of the nominating committee, but But ultimately every board meeting or every other board meeting, if someone’s three year term was up, they would be reelected or more than likely, or they would prior to that announced that they weren’t seeking re election and it would be handled that way. Okay.

[00:28:38.92] spk_3:
Okay. Um,

[00:28:40.17] spk_2:
let’s ah, let’s take,

[00:29:30.12] spk_0:
uh, let’s take this break. And, uh, if you wanna you got a little longer in this break, And now we’re gonna talk to Amy Sample Ward as well. So, uh, stand by. Don’t go anywhere, though, Okay? You don’t have time to go to the bathroom. Just drink water, bathroom breaks or later, uh, his break quote. We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they’re always there to help walk. Help me walk through it. End Quote that Sally Hancock in Altoona, Pennsylvania, Maur raves about the Cougar Mountain customer service. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial, which is on the listener landing page, which is at now time for Tony’s Take two. Your decade plan for planned giving. Um, this is not only the beginning of a new year, which is now close to 1/12 over already, but that means that we’re nearly 1 144th of the way into the new decade. So my, uh, belief is my It’s more than a belief. It’s almost Fact,

[00:29:49.25] spk_2:
if you start

[00:30:01.17] spk_0:
your planned giving program this year, you are gonna be astronomically ahead, and you’re gonna be you’re gonna be shocked at where you are by the year 2029. Those 10 years

[00:30:07.79] spk_2:
you’ll be you’ll be at

[00:30:21.72] spk_0:
a point where you can be projecting planned giving revenue for future years based on the revenue that you will have had in like years. 6789 That’s how far ahead you will be in plant giving and you think plan giving that. You know, people die. The gifts come, but we don’t know when those when those episodes air gonna happen. Yeah, but once your file is large enough, once you have enough planned giving donors in your file, you’re gonna start to see trends. And of course, you can’t predict to the dollar amount.

[00:30:46.78] spk_2:
But you can give yourself some comfort with a range that you expect to receive in cash each year,

[00:31:22.81] spk_0:
going forward from really like your 789 and forward, but certainly from your 10 on. So my urging is that you if you are not doing plan giving fundraising 2020 is the year to start the beginning of the decade. I say a lot more about this in a video, which is your decade plan for playing, giving. I lay out the plan. I don’t just say where you’re gonna be in a decade. I show you how to get there step year by year in the video, which is at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony. Take two now. Uh, late breaking. Let’s bring in Amy Sample Ward. She’s the CEO of and 10 and our social media and technology contributor. And

[00:31:44.64] spk_2:
we’re going to spend a few minutes talking about what’s coming up at 20 NTC. The 2020 non profit Technology conference. Welcome back, Amy. Sample Ward

[00:31:46.85] spk_7:
Bake. I’m happy to be on happy 2020.

[00:32:02.29] spk_2:
Thank you very much. Yes, indeed. First time we’ve talked this year. Um, it’s not too late to say Happy New Year because we know each other so well. And, uh, I haven’t seen you Haven’t talked to you since January 1st. So happy New Year. Happy, happy, Happy decade as well.

[00:32:05.44] spk_7:
Well, And where we’ve just started the Chinese New Year. So

[00:32:10.41] spk_0:
indeed, Yes, Yes, indeed. Balloon. You’re here. Um,

[00:32:13.04] spk_2:
so we’ve got this little thing coming up. It’s not

[00:32:24.41] spk_0:
so little, um, being snarky. It’s in Baltimore in March 2020. Non profit technology conference hosted by and 10 non profit radio will be there on the exhibit

[00:32:29.49] spk_2:
floor. But before we get to that, you tell us what? What? Why should

[00:32:31.89] spk_0:
we be attending?

[00:33:07.15] spk_7:
Oh, my gosh. I am really excited for this year because I think, as you know, you’ve You’ve been a handful of times now, so you can probably speak to this yourself too. But every year we’re always trying to make it better than it was, of course, the year before. And each year we feel like, Okay, this is the best we’ve ever done it. But how could we make it better? And I think we’ve got some really good plans this year that do that. Of course we have. You know, this is a big three day conference there, 2200 plus people altogether. And it doesn’t have to be, you know, just one type of non profit or one type of job in an organization. If you are listening to this, you are welcome at the number of

[00:33:17.73] spk_2:

[00:33:18.57] spk_7:
that you could learn and do there

[00:33:19.84] spk_0:
It is not only for technologists, not only for technologists,

[00:35:24.80] spk_7:
right? Well, I mean, it’s 2020. Everyone in a non profit is using technology, right? Like it doesn’t. It doesn’t really matter how what your job titles has on your business card. There’s pieces of technology you need to use or make decisions about to be effective in your job on. There’s folks from every job title and people who have been in the sector for a year, and people have been in it for 40 years. You know, it’s it’s really like a cross section of everybody, Um, and we have over 150 sessions, so plenty of opportunity to go learn. But outside of that, something that we feel makes the NTC really specialists. How many opportunities there are for you to meet other people and share ideas or come to the conference of that one burning question like you just wish you could find somebody that’s figured out a way to get mail chimp to do that One thing you know, like we want to make sure you really do find that one other person. So we have a lot of kind of community based programs that happen as part of the agenda, and we have even more of them this year. We’ve We’ve always had what we call birds of a feather. So you know, funny things like people will do. You know, people who love watching a certain TV show or something as a table topic at lunch. But other people will do things like, you know, they use a certain tool or something so they can all meet each other and chat. But in the afternoons we’ve started this year what we’re calling knowledge swaps where they’re Maur intentional. They are about, you know, something work related, something you want to do something You’re having a challenge with, something that you just did really well And you want to make sure you can share that knowledge with other people so folks can sign up to basically, like, find other folks and hosted a conversation together on the topics a little bit easier than saying you want to present for 75 minutes for a session, right? Like maybe you just want to find four other folks and share ideas. So we built that into the agenda each day on and we’ve also expanded our career center. That isn’t just for people looking for jobs. A really big part of the community of the career center is mentorship. So being able to sit down with somebody for happen our and share feedback, whether it’s about their resume or it’s about, you know, the evolution in your own career. So what? Whatever side of that coin that you would be on the career center has lost of opportunities for you, um, and would love for folks to be a part of that.

[00:35:51.11] spk_0:
Okay, um, we just have, like, a minute in a minute or so left, so details of registration. Where do we

[00:35:58.54] spk_2:
go with the dates? Radio? Don’t even say the day everything. But the date is today.

[00:36:10.72] spk_7:
Yes, the dates are March 24th 26 it’s in Baltimore. At the convention center. There’s hotels of all the various price points, whatever place you have, a membership number two, whatever, all around the convention center, and you can go toe intend that orc Slash and T. C. You can see the full agenda. You can review some of those community programs I was talking about. We’ve got Rachel Affinity Spaces support for folks who want prayer room, meditation spaces, lactation access. All of those things are part of our conference. So we really want it to be something that folks are ready to learn and meet other people and talk. This is a resource for you. And if there’s a way we can make it easier support you being able to participate, we will do everything we can to do that. So please Goto intend that work slash NPC. Check it out. If you need anything, let us know. But hopefully we see you in March.

[00:37:05.76] spk_0:
This is an excellent conference. Yeah, I’ve been there. I think this is the sixth year.

[00:37:10.06] spk_2:
Do you think I think it’s the 60

[00:37:20.04] spk_0:
year I’ve brought the show, so we will be on the exhibit floor where were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software at the conference. So we’ll be side by side. We’ll be getting. I’ll be getting 30 plus interviews. Last year I got 32 interviews in two and 1/2 days, and then we air them. That

[00:37:28.44] spk_7:
must have been a record. 30.

[00:37:45.78] spk_0:
32 is the is the largest I’ve gotten. Yeah, it had been like 25 27 or so, but so were booked up. Eso. When you’re at the conference, come on the exhibit floor. I believe you’ll see us in boots 5 10 and 5 12 On DDE comes he’s come Say hello will be the noisy one with probably with spotlights, because we might shoot video. So but very smart, very smart speakers in lots of different topics around technology. And Amy’s Point is, I want to drive home. We’re all technologists. It regardless of what it says on your business card, you’re no longer using index cards and transparencies. You know, the overhead projectors. They’re gone. We’re all using technology, and this conference is for people at all different levels. Whether it’s on your in your job title as C I O. Or You’re just a user of technology

[00:38:22.71] spk_2:
and you have to say good bye. Thank you very much.

[00:38:24.45] spk_7:
Okay, thank you so much. And I will see what your booth. Because I always loved getting to do an interview with you.

[00:38:29.16] spk_2:
Absolutely. It’s our only time to go face to face. Yes, we’ll see you. I’ll see you in Baltimore.

[00:38:36.00] spk_0:
All right. Thank you for that indulgence. Alex Count. It’s usually

[00:38:38.44] spk_4:
a great conference or close to where I live. Yeah, it is fabulous. Maybe I’ll see you. There is

[00:38:49.80] spk_0:
really a very smart place. Hundreds of brilliance because I wish I could interview more than the 32 or so whatever I’ll get. Um so just remind listeners Alex counts. Ah, consultant, founder of Grameen Foundation. And his book is Changing the World without Losing your mind. Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship. We’re just scratching the surface. You know, where we’re We’re focused on the CEO chair relationship today, but obviously the book goes way beyond

[00:39:11.33] spk_3:
that. Uh,

[00:39:24.52] spk_2:
lots of lessons in 30 years. Now it’s Ah, you got a good You got a young face. You got a baby face. Check out, check out his, uh, check out his headshot tony-martignetti dot com’s gonna baby face. Um, So let’s, uh we divert a little bit, but these are all valuable topics.

[00:39:28.92] spk_0:
I mean, this board evaluation process is semi annual thing is really very interesting. I hadn’t heard anything

[00:39:35.22] spk_3:
like that. Um,

[00:39:36.96] spk_2:
let’s talk Thio. Let’s talk to

[00:39:43.47] spk_0:
communications. You like you like frequent regular communications between the CEO and the chair.

[00:40:28.73] spk_4:
Yes. I mean, there’s no. You know, when you when you talk with someone, you come in. Mike, come on with an agenda of what you think is going on the organization, but especially if you’re not rushed on your in person, where that’s possible, you know, you stumble upon in the process of just kind of ruminating on what’s going on the organization, some opportunities and assets and some kind of dangers and risks that you didn’t even go in thinking about because you’re you know, you’re with someone who’s also internalized. The organization is smart, is committed on DSO. I always, you know, I would wouldn’t want to talk with Susan or Bob or Palm or it’s, you know, have have kind of regular calls, you know, maybe two or three a month, but also in with a strict agenda but also sometimes has really unstructured. You know, it’s been a long dinner with them and, ah, a mixture of bonding and just kind of, you know, thinking out loud brainstorming and and just really kind of creative ideas can come up there. And if you’re I did tell a story. One of my board shares went from being semi retired of a very demanding job three years into his role. And while he did stick with it for another two years, which surprised me my ability to spend time with him, quality unstructured on rushed time was compromised. And and that was and I missed that. And our partnership suffered a little bit. As a result, he was still very good and because of his job, had more money to put into the organization. But his ability to kind of have that Maur kind of on structure brainstorming time was severely constrained.

[00:41:16.49] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah, it was more just a formal time together. Yeah.

[00:41:21.06] spk_2:
And you think about think about friends, you, How much just happens

[00:41:28.85] spk_0:
in free conversation over over a meal in a glass of wine. You

[00:41:47.13] spk_4:
think of some something to do together that just you hadn’t even thought of and just being in their presence. You’re like, Well, why don’t we try that, um and and so that that time together again, so many of these things Fundraising, managing board relationships. They’re very time consuming. But when you do them well and invest the time, it’s just they pay back many, many times, but you need to be able to kind of spend the time on what you know, my wife and I call the important but not urgent on If you invest in that, just magical things can happen.

[00:42:01.10] spk_2:
And then this kind

[00:42:01.89] spk_0:
of thing you have to make time for you aren’t gonna find the time when I when I find the time will, will have an unstructured meeting. But today we’re having an agenda. When I find the time when we find the time to get

[00:42:12.38] spk_2:
time is not gonna tap you on the shoulder and make itself apparent that you have to make the time. There’s never gonna come in timers. I’ve got two free hours today. Let’s have a meeting with meeting with. I’ll have a call with my board chair. It’s not gonna happen. You have to make the time consciously

[00:43:04.04] spk_4:
and you know, and it’s also becomes something, if you know is it can’t became with each my board shares, particularly Bob like Failed and Susan, where I just enjoyed being around them. They had a lot of grace for me when I made mistakes. They kind of puffed up my ego. When I was doing well, we found common interests or developed them on. They never took cheap shots at me, even in private. If they were going to be constructive, they tried the most sensitive way to do it. That didn’t deflate me. And so it just it ends up being. Gosh, I went. When do I get my next time with Susan? Tony Learn Thio kind of, you know, to commiserated, to celebrate. It’s just always like a special thing. And so you know, they make more time for it, and you developing that personal chemistry. Even if you’re very different people like we were, you could develop it, but it it it needs to be a, you know, a high priority

[00:43:19.30] spk_0:
on. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows in the C e o chair relationship. Like any relationship, let me take this last break and we’ll come back to Gilling with tension points.

[00:43:31.35] spk_2:
Turn to communications. Do you find yourself scratching

[00:43:39.57] spk_0:
your head, wondering how some nonprofits always seem to get mentioned in the news? It’s not because they’re big here. We are talking about relationships. It’s because they have relationships with journalists when they don’t want to be quoted, they just have

[00:43:48.44] spk_2:
a relation. They’re not looking for something they have a relationship

[00:43:59.65] spk_0:
of standing relationship with journalists turn to can help you do that. Their former journalists, including from the Chronicle of Philanthropy. So you want to build those relationships in advance. So when the news breaks and you can contribute to it and want to be seen on an issue, you’ve got the standing relationship. Your call, most likely more likely than not, will be taken over not having that standing relationship. They return hyphen to dot CEO.

[00:45:00.25] spk_2:
Let’s do the live listener love and there’s quite a bit of it we are in. Ah, it’s the start. Domestic Woodbridge, New Jersey Tampa, Florida New York New York multiple. Glad to see you. Thank you very much. New York, um, live love to each of those cities as well. A Seattle, Washington in Chicago, Illinois, um, as well as Lincoln’s in North Carolina. Well, cool North Carolina. I’m in Emerald Isle, not today, but, uh, live love. I’ve loved to each of our domestic live listeners. Now let’s go abroad. Seoul, South Korea. Always so loyal. I’m always so grateful. Seoul, South Korea Multiple listeners Annual Hasso comes a ham Nida Woodbridge, New Jersey

[00:45:05.27] spk_0:
No, I’m sorry. That’s not fair. Not that’s That’s, uh that’s not foreign. That’s not very funny.

[00:45:07.74] spk_2:
I’m from New

[00:45:08.17] spk_0:
Jersey. So you know, I’m from I grew up in Rutherford Multiple,

[00:45:44.57] spk_2:
Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan. Often we have Japanese listeners. Thank you, Japan. Konnichi wa um Chapultepec de Chapultepec Day. Hinojosa, Mexico When I started this when you start this France Rahm bouquet that was the same city was with us last week as well. Rambo. Yea. And I apologize if I’m not pronouncing it right. But live love Thio out to our for listeners officers in France, um, Oxford in the United Kingdom and also in Korea Sue on Oh, someone else. Besides, uh um besides soul thank you. Live love out to you. Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Moscow. We’re, uh not quite Everyone say every hemisphere I mean every continent, but we’re close live love

[00:46:45.55] spk_0:
to each of our live listeners. Thank you so much for being with us and the podcast pleasantries toward over 13,000 listeners. In the podcast Pleasantries to you. I thank you for being with us week after week, whether you binge it all and listen to eight episodes on a weekend or you’re spreading it out. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Um, that was our Ah, live. Listen, love in the podcast pleasantries. And now back to, uh, CEO chair relationship, which we’ve got butt loads more time for. Ah, and Alex counts. Okay, Moments of tension. They’re gonna crop up

[00:47:51.47] spk_4:
inevitable in a certain way. Healthy. I remember. And in the article I talked just referenced in passing that, you know, one time I had some tension with Susan Davis and I went to the vice chair kind of probably overreacting to that and wanted to try play Mommy off against Daddy or something, you know. And Yvette Dyer, who is our vice chair at the time, said very profound and basically said, You know, the tension is an inbuilt part of that relationship, even when it’s the healthiest. And as I thought about that more I thought about you know, your non profit executive directors. Sometimes they’re too aggressive, they need to be reined in, and the board feels it. But it’s really the responsibility that share to give that feedback. On the other hand, some this wasn’t so much my fault, but some executive directors and CEOs are too cautious. I need to be pushed to be more aggressive and had Ah, And again that will come, uh, probably is the sense of the board, but often best conveyed by the chair. And initially, that may not be that well received, um, and and may create some tension. But again, there’s in all healthy relationships, especially this one. That’s that’s one of the aspects of it. And once I realized that and you see, I had the benefit when I was working with Susan, that I’d already been the chair of another non profit board. She had previously been the executive director of a nonprofit, so we kind of understood you

[00:48:12.53] spk_0:
had been in each other’s roles. Very important, always

[00:48:15.15] spk_4:
possible. But but but actually quite it valuable it You’ve kind of sat in that person’s, you know, chair and and you can understand a little bit more why they’re doing what they’re doing on DDE. And so that that tension just was, you know, was really part and parcel of a healthy relationship. Is, as I came to see, not didn’t see that you immediately

[00:48:36.62] spk_2:
too timid sometimes CEOs in what respect? Not aggressive. Just

[00:50:05.15] spk_4:
say, you know whether it’s setting their annual goals for, you know, whatever societal positive impact they want. Or some CEOs want a stockpile money rather than spend it on their programs of their team star of the organization. Just because they just they’re always worried about running out of money. So or sometimes it’s about, for example, keeping it a non performing employees on giving them one more chance that could go on for four or five years and on. And, you know, there was one case where I probably stuck with it. A chief operating officer longer than I should and a board chair came in and said, You know, when you’re gonna ease him out. You know, he’s creating a lot of dissension in the organization. Even that was raging, reaching the level of the board. And I needed to be pushed Thio to recognize that this person wasn’t performing and so get my errors would tend to be more about being too aggressive, too much of a risk taker, and I would need to be reined in. But like I had my examples where I was foot dragging and on the board. If the board doesn’t tell you that your your staff probably won’t directly on dhe. You know they’re the ones that to be a kind of observe your performance and push you. And of course, ultimate decision usually remains yours. But if you don’t follow that enough, you’ll find yourself out of a job at some point. And so if there’s a there’s a kind of a creative tension there,

[00:50:06.72] spk_0:
particularly staff won’t tell you if it’s the c 00 that we’re talking about. Yep, that’s the source.

[00:50:13.58] spk_2:
You liketo have staff participate, attend

[00:50:21.06] spk_0:
and participate board inboard means and not just the C suite. Yeah, that’s what

[00:50:21.61] spk_4:
I did something that people who it

[00:50:24.35] spk_2:
kind of

[00:50:51.40] spk_4:
naturally evolved in Grameen Foundation, where from when we had a very small staff initially is you know, I would have some staff that would present to the board. Maybe they weren’t as good at presenting his. I was. Maybe they were better, but but to give them that experience, to demystify what the board is by having them, and the board could see the quality of staff I had, whether it was, hopefully they were impressed. Sometimes they’re, like, you know, realize that you had why I had to step in and do this, but I ultimately not only had the senior staff as we grew, you know, sit around the board table and either present or observed, but I would say any available staff member quite radical. Could you sit in an outer ring and observe? And it just it had this kind of ability to demystify the board where a lot of non profit employees like

[00:51:08.63] spk_2:
What is

[00:52:23.45] spk_4:
the board do and they’re not doing enough. And what’s their role? And why do we have to work so hard to prepare these board meetings and when they can actually sit there and observe the board deliberating and we would we would go one step further, which is where a t end of the board meeting the board would all leave board members except for the chair, and I would facilitate a debrief with all the staff who were present. Summons might be 2025 staff members, and they could all say, I thought the board had a really intelligent conversation about that. I thought that they totally avoided this topic and had a really, you know, bad discussion about it, and we would just we wouldn’t try to argue them. And so it because a lot of people came to work for me, as I learned is that the board was this mysterious thing where the CEO would go off in a room and maybe the CFO would make a 45 minute presentation and then be ushered out of the room. And it just felt like a this kind of secret society that was making decisions about them that they had no visibility into. And I kind of went the other way of just absolute transparency, including sometimes the board. My staff would see the board grilling me, and they would see me sometimes perform well and defend their interests. You know, some board member wants a new program that made no sense, and I would say, No, we’re not gonna do that makes no sense. And sometimes they’d see me stumble. But again, it just made it more of a human, just just just a group of people trying to help us in a different type of role than you have and let them watch you at times and you get to watch them perform and evaluated and and so it just took all that mysteriousness out of it, and I thought was healthy. Now, at times, you know, I did. I have an occasional board member say, Well, what

[00:52:43.95] spk_2:
if we What if

[00:52:47.15] spk_4:
we close down this whole project? You know, maybe that would be a good idea. And then the people running that project sitting in the background Does it cause anxiety that you need to manage? Yes, there were. There were problems with that. But the benefits way far outweigh the costs in my mind.

[00:53:01.32] spk_0:
Okay. Interesting. Yeah, The typical is staff member of presents, and then is, as you said, ushered out. Yeah.

[00:53:12.65] spk_2:
All right. Awesome. Opening our minds. Um, you have some thoughts

[00:53:13.51] spk_0:
about upgrading aboard where we have, like, two minutes or so left or something. So

[00:53:18.60] spk_2:
we got a good

[00:53:19.21] spk_0:
Okay, we have about three minutes left up the timeto upgrade first. What do you mean by upgrading aboard? Well,

[00:54:16.61] spk_4:
I I believe that I’ve studied it. That about 80% of non profit boards in this country or some version of dysfunctional either micromanaging or only 80 or well, you think that low occasionally I say that I ask people who challenge me and more often it’s that they think it It’s more than that. But whatever most up a solid majority and the reason s O I. What I say is, Is that it? You know, if you’re upgrading, I’m saying, if you want to take a dysfunctional board to mediocre or a mediocre board too high performing it could be done. But you need to do a couple things. One. Is there no quick fixes? If anyone tells you they can turn a board materially increase their performance in 90 days, adopting you know, four techniques. It’s not gonna happen if if you want to increase the quality aboard materially, significantly mark your calendar 3 to 5 years in the future. And one of the things I most often hear from executive directors is, Well, I’m gonna wait for my board to start performing, and then I’ll really engage them on and support them. But they need to prove to me, and I said, No, that’s the wrong way. Look at it. You need to start treating them now. Whoever is on that treat them now is if they’re high performing, bored, invest in them that way and then given a couple years of lag time, they’ll emerge to be the board that you deserve. But you need to treat them now like they’re the board that you deserve, even though they’re not yet, um, and so

[00:54:47.20] spk_2:
that may just

[00:54:47.78] spk_4:
spending intensive time, helping to create real wins for them and a great experience of being on the board, which is gonna be different for each board member

[00:54:55.99] spk_0:
and challenging them to spend more time to get more responsibility.

[00:54:59.46] spk_2:
That’s right, but also

[00:55:00.20] spk_4:
making it making it pleasurable and enjoyable for them to do so not because their guilt or manipulation, but just out of a sense of opportunity. So again I go into in the book, I talk about how once that once I kind of got that at the care and feeding of board members. I think most executive directors and CEO spend probably could spend 3 to 4 times Maur of their time and effort in cultivating these board members. And the payback is immeasurable. But it’s it’s not gonna happen 90 days if if you’re if you’re gonna just read an article in the Stanford Social Innovation Review, apply a few techniques and then you know are they performing better in 90 days. It’s just not. That’s not how groups evolve and function. But if you do it over an extended period aboard, and then you just add one good new member a year. Ah, and they raised the level of everyone a little bit, and that’s that’s how this goes. But if you stick with it for a couple of years, it could be miraculous.

[00:55:59.64] spk_0:
We’re gonna leave it there. That’s outstanding. Is Alex counts his book again, changing the world without Losing your mind? Leadership lessons from three decades of social entrepreneurship. You’ll find him at Alex counts dot com and at Alex,

[00:56:14.52] spk_2:
counts. Thanks so much, Thank you Pleasure. Next week, our Innovators,

[00:56:30.41] spk_0:
Siri’s continues with the return of Peter Shankman on neuro Diversity. What that means for you as an employer and for your employees, the those who are New road divergent. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com

[00:56:41.16] spk_2:
by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is

[00:56:59.82] spk_0:
there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative

[00:57:00.60] spk_2:
producer is Claire Meyerhoff.

[00:57:41.08] spk_5:
Sam Liebowitz is the line producer on the board shows. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York, with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for March 1, 2019: Your CEO/Board Chair Relations

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My Guest:

Aisha Nyandoro: Your CEO/Board Chair Relations
You, or your CEO, as the case may be, need to work together with your board chair toward an aligned vision. How do you establish it and what if it gets blurry? Aisha Nyandoro shepherds us through CEO/board chair and full board relations, as in recruiting, onboarding, engaging and removing. She’s CEO of Springboard to Opportunities.

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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of ventricular itis if you broke my heart with the idea that you missed today’s show your CEO, board chair, relations you or your CEO, as the case may be, need to work together with your board chair toward an Aligned Vision. How do you establish it? And what if it gets blurry? Aisha nyandoro shepherds us through CEO board chair and full board relations, as in recruiting onboarding engaging and removing she’s CEO of Springboard to Opportunities. Tony’s Take two act Blue responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner CPAs. Guiding you Beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye. Tell us. Turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine It’s a pleasure to welcome Asian nyandoro back to the show. She is chief executive officer of Springboard to opportunities. Springboard provides strategic direct support to residents of federally subsidized, affordable housing. She’s been an academic and evaluator, a philanthropist and NON-PROFIT executive. She’s a Ted ex speaker and her work has been featured in Essence Magazine, CNN, MSNBC, Fast Company, the Nation and other media. Isha’s life mission is to holistically and compassionately lift families out of cycles of poverty. She’s at Isha underscore Nyandoro and springboard to opportunities. Is that springboard to dot or ge? Welcome back to Non-profit Radio Ayesha. Thank you so much for having me back. Tony Beets. Absolute pleasure. Sorry. Yes, thank you. I’m glad it feels good for you. It feels good for me. Um, you’re calling in from Ah, you in Jackson, Mississippi? Is that right? I am calling you from a rainy, dreary day here. Injected it. Good. OK, it’s always good. It’s always good in the south, right? Yeah, it’s I like that. It’s always a good thing coming. Fancy coming for somebody? The Northeast Teo, You know, we’re all jaded and think we’re the center of the universe. No, that’s not true. All right. I’m glad to have you back. It was about three years ago. I look back. It was about three years ago, actually to the month. I think it was May have been a January of twenty sixteen that you were on. So it’s, uh it’s been three years since I met you at the opportunity collaboration, which must have been that the October before. That must’ve been October twenty fifteen. That’s exactly right. Well, and a lot of a lot of change since then. But I’m still doing the same great work with springboards opportunity here in Jackson. And so yeah, I think I’ve seen you two be good. I’m glad. Alright. I love your laugh to scorn. Follow-up lifting. Love it. Okay. Um, so your your primary point we got, you know, we have an hour together, so we got time to Flesh is sold out. But you’re you’re very concerned about having an aligned vision between you as CEO and your board chair. What? What does that look like? A big align vision is really a vision where you, as the CEO are maintaining your ideals, your leadership and not losing yourself in the voice of the chair of your board. But they’re also really recognizing that in order for that vision, come to pass, but you really do need the support of the chair. So it really is a beautiful day in, and it is a relationship that a lot of intentionality and work has to be put into. And I don’t. I think a lot of folks understand. I understand the work and the balance that it takes a really maintaining those relationship. And that is not something that happens overnight. And, well, you know, if I get the relationship in order to make sure that you’re getting all of the benefits from the relationship, you have to invest in it. And so, you know, that’s true with the relationship between the CEO, our executive director and the board chair really being intentional about the relationship and putting the work in and ensure that both parties are getting the support that they need from it. Okay, just like any personal relationship or or like any part of the relationship yesterday evening, it’s the same thing. And I think the best beauty about you know, it really is something that translates over easily into personal relation. Because what you’re bored Chair, you really do have to have a personal relationship with them. It just can’t be about whatever is going on professionally with the organization, because so we lead of organization. So much of your personal idea ideology is invested into it. And so because of that you, you know, Yes. You have to have a personal relationship with that individual, will you? You said it’s a It’s a beautiful dance. Uh, who leads? Even Think of a way your words against you Eve. Of course, to see only because the CEO is the head of the organization. But with that that thing you really have, tio have a relationship where you can be open about your vision and your idea. And you can trust that you know it time that you all may not be on the same page and you’ve done the work and the relationship in investing in the relationship to trust that the relationship will still stay in even when you do have moments when you disagree. You know, for my board chair and I have a great relationship. I’ve known her now for years, and she is one of my absolute favorite people. But they are sometimes, but we have had to have courageous conversation and that is simply a conversation that was difficult because I knew that we were on different sides of, you know, a position that that we felt both passionately about. But because of that that we had done investing in a relationship ahead of time, we’re able to have those conversations were ableto agree to disagree. And the work continues. Okay, So give us give me a sense of what this looks like when you’re, uh you’re thinking about who’s who the next board chair is going to be. How do you You know, How do you start this dance? How do you make sure that he or she is aligned with the mission? The way you as the CEO are you before you select? I mean, you maybe have a couple of people. Maybe Maybe it’s a few board members. Or maybe he’s an outsider. You know, you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t really bring an outsider on to be bored. Share, would you know, you bring out that you would cultivate them up, okay? You would cultivate them. You want someone who understands some of the historical history of the organization has that context of the work and you know, and has worked their way up the ranks start to stay in the board. Okay. And so far, you know, that’s a good question because currently springboard its own wrapping a new board chair. So we identified the chair who would take over the end of this year, and she’s currently serving in the role of vice chair. And so for me, the way that I am going about really fostering that relationship with her and getting to know her, it’s a chicken once someone you know, so we can begin to get to know each other, get to know it doesn’t work now, personalities I know her, but I don’t know her nearly as well as I know the board here with whom I talked to weekly and, you know, and that I’ve talked to weekly for No for years now. So just be really being intentional about putting that time and think, OK, let’s just you know, And, uh, my board chair is in Maine and fice Terrier. My board is in New Orleans. So where the vice chairs like? Okay, listen, virtual coffee because you are in the world. I am in Mississippi. I can’t physically see you want so much, but we can, you know, elect some time on our respective calendars. Just a connect and, you know, catch up with the work, catch up with personal life and just really no began to build those connections that I know are necessary when you’re trying to, you know, move strategy forward. Okay? Give me a chance for a break and we can compete up the conversation. Right. Right where you are. Just hold on. No problem. Pursuant, their newest free book is the Art of First Impressions. It’s all about Donorsearch acquisition. To attract new donors, you need to make a smashing first impression. How do you do it? E Book has their six guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy How to identify your organization’s unique value plus creative tips. You’ll find the book on the listener landing page at tony dot M. A slash pursuant capital P for please. All right, now, let’s go back to your CEO Board chair relations. Did you say your current board chairs in Maine? And the vice, The vice chair. The chair to be is in New Orleans. Is that right? That’s correct. Okay. Do you find now? Okay, Well, you’ve the current board chair. You’ve worked with her for years on DH before she was bored. Chair. You obviously were working, whether just not as closely did that distance, uh, hinder the relationship You, you know, not at all surprising. And that’s the thing with technology now. Yeah. You know, there’s so many opportunities to connect and really be a relation buy-in ship over with technology. We have no meetings there. Space time there’s, you know, text messages. There’s all these ways to stay connected. I text her all the time. It’s just something that I think is interesting, just our foreign, her different articles. So there really is so many ways that you could be a relationship and feel connectedness when you are not physically in the same space with someone. So I don’t want people to feel like, you know, in order to have a really great relationship with the boardmember that you have to have physical proximity because I found that not, you know, that has not had to be the case. Yeah. So you’re you’re texting frequently. Your you have these weekly calls with the board chair, but frequent texts back and forth, There’s just you know, it’s it’s deeper than a I don’t I don’t really know what to call it, so I don’t want to take a chance and blow it and call it something wrong. But it’s deeper than just a professional relationship you have with her That’s not exactly right. But I’m saying you know so much you really do get to the place where it is a personal relationship with Will I feel in order to truly advanced the work. You have to have those things and especially for those of us who lead now process because so much of non-profit working really hard work. So it really is a lot of your personal convictions. And, you know, it’s a lot of your personal convictions go into the work. So you do get to a place where you know it’s a professional personal relationship, but at the same time, you feel do recognise it. Okay, um, even though we have this relationship that it’s still it’s a working relationship. So it’s not as if you ever you know, blur the line and get to a place where you know you’re unprofessional or you can, you know, get really comfortable in some of the spaces because it still is your balls. And you still have to be mindful of that on DH. That’s just, you know, this is the reality of our working relationship. I feel Yeah, yeah. Now I hear you. It’s it’s a deeper professional relationship, but it’s still not, you know, it’s not a relationship with your friends. Of course you can’t. You can’t You can’t You can’t get that. That’s that would be inappropriate. But it’s but it’s not dry in stagnant, and you don’t know who wants to work in that space. It’s close. It’s close. I mean, it’s a close working relationship, so and so in terms of this, you know, vision alignment, you would. You would learn that as the person worked their way through the ranks of the board, I mean, whether whether they’re in line with the mission and they see it, the mission and the vision, the same way you do. You would learn that a cz you got to know them on the board, and if you didn’t feel it was a right fit, you know, to be to be chair, then you just, you know, you wouldn’t nominate that person or you would exactly right and that, and I think that’s exactly right. And I think it’s a lot to be said for that because I think sometimes wanted a steak that non-profit leaders to make. If you know, wanting to promote their friends and putting their friends on their boards in different things such as that, And then you know, you make your friend your board chair and you all may not have the same vision. And they they really affected friendship than an answer, being a really stressful situation for everyone involved. And so that really allowing the individual work up the ranks on the board and get to know that individual doesn’t mean that, you know, they’re your personal, your favorite person on the board. But is this the person that you understand? You are most aligned with the and that can really help carry the mission forward because of the end of the day, It is all about strategy and mission driven and trying to figure out how do you make sure that the organization is living out his mission? Envision as best, possibly when when you do have some rough spots, let’s say you know you. You said, you know you’re there times you know you’re on the other side of oven issue problem than the chair. How do you, uh, how do you approach it? You talk about it. If you don’t let us sit. I mean, haven’t you have open dialogue and conversations and you just go in and you lay out your position and your Russian allies, you’re give him out? You don’t go into Vince. Um, you build your best case for why you are advocating for whatever that position is, and you allowed them to do the same. But it really is that open dialogue and communication in trusting the work that you have put in and establishing a relationship to begin with. Yeah. You have a solid foundation that you’re building, right? You said earlier you’re confident that the relationship isn’t going to break down over this thiss obstacle. Obstacles overcome oppcoll, but it takes open communication to do it. And I really do think that’s a sign of a healthy relationship. When you can have those disagreements and recognize it at the end of the day, everybody’s okay. Because if you were not able to go to your board chair and say I disagree with you on that, or I don’t think this makes the most sense in here is why is it a relationship and, you know, and are you out truly allying And so to be. If you are not in a place where you can have it on a silo, there’s no more that needs to be done with that relationship. Okay. Okay. Uh, excellent. All excellent advice. What? Let’s see. So So before we before we start talking to the to the bigger issues and I’ll move, move to the bigger board and the CEO relationships there. What? Maybe you’ve already said it, but what would be your your number one takeaway for that? For that board chair CEO relationship, the number one takeaway really would be for first CEO to understand their vision for the organization and to feel comfortable communicating that beige into whoever, whether or not to be your board chaired. The donor is the staff members of the board members that whoever that has to truly know what your vision is on Bac comfortable in that space and then from there, hold having open dialogue and communication with your board share regularly. And recognizing that fostering that relationship has just so much a part of your job as the fund-raising aspects of your relation of your job. It always, you know, extreme part of your job description. Well, that was to take aways, but I’ll let you go. Your anarchist now. Yeah, you weasel doing there. But that’s fine. Not all important. I’m just getting, um, Yeah, I mean, I hear you communication, open dialogue, a strong, foundational relationship. Uh, you know, as you said, so that you can you can be honest in the rough times and hear each other and work through. No, no obstacle is insurmountable. If there’s if there’s a strong relationship. Teo, att the base. All right, Cool. All right, so, so broadening a little bit. You know, if we if we go to the think about now the CEO relationship with the Fuller, that the bigger board, um, how do you How do you get involved with board recruiting Yeah, so you know, for us, boy recruiting, really. Governance committee. Where must again, we’re going through that process right now, We have a governor’s committee where we have set up a metric of what it is that we know. That we need organizational in orderto helpless, you know, extra cheese, the pieces of our strategic plan that was recently identified. And so it really is using that rubric to help guide our decisions about what makes the most sense. And that’s where you know, having strong boardmember that are well connected labbate locally, regionally, nationally also comes into place because they can make recommendations and allow us the CEO to say yea or nay order, do some research on those individuals going. You know what, the CEO, you have individual that you think they make sense that that really is where bilich conversation should come into play. And it could be a fun process. But, you know, really thinking about who gets to be a part of division for the next three or so years moving for it. You know, I love. I love putting boards together. You know, one of my favorite pieces of my job, because it really is a lot of fun. So you lean on your board members toe open up their networks. Teo. Potential board members. Yes, the and Boardmember should recognize that that is a big part of their job as well. You know, provide access to their network into really be Campion’s before the organization with their friends and colleagues. You know, talk about what is this? That we’re doing a talk about what it is that the organization is doing not just from by natural lorts teeth, but also from, you know, he wasn’t a recruitment. Peace and social capital is really important, and we have a dynamic board right now in the majority of the board members that we have have come directly from referrals from other board members. And so shall you know the board. Your board’s ability to provide their connections in that social capital is just as important to me. In my opinion, for them to help with the financial fund-raising aspect of it is Will. And this well is there. You know, they’re content expertise because our board is still a fairly small board. So I really do rely on thy boardmember. They have contact because experts in various pieces on that we know will be to be strategic and move forward. Okay. I probably should’ve asked before you stay. You’re stuck with Ah, lackluster host. I’m sorry. Describe your tell us about your board. How big? What committees do you have? Yes. Our board is really small working board. We have seven board members were potentially about to growth either nine or eleven. And yeah, and everyone. Everyone on the border’s content expert that aligned to specific buckets. The work that we do for the organization. So we have individuals who are housing expert. Since we’re working affordable housing experts. Since we work in the space of federally subsidized, affordable housing, we have individuals who are organizational strategist. Because when we started seventy years ago, we said that we knew that we would be growing rapidly so that we so we knew we needed someone that provided a level level of expertise. So it really is matching Arnie. Finding is like chess. The needs that we have fighting appropriate individuals to feel that gap for us. Now, how does that feel? You if you’re going to grow from seven to ten or eleven, I mean, that’s Ah, that’s like roughly a fifty percent increase in inboard size. How does that feel it feels about? It feels right. It feels like it’s time we go back your fourth and you know. And so if you know it will bring bring on either two or three, so so it doesn’t feel too big on there. Still is manageable because, you know a lot of CEO time managing for it. It helps relations with those things. Those bilich manageable for me. I don’t know if I don’t want to have a board that is twenty members or fifteen members or different things fishes at which those of my colleagues have. So it feels it feels good. And it feels like we’ve all been involved in the process of getting to the place of having a board decide on that. Feels like it’s timely that, you know we’re being conscious of the organization’s posts and where we are and saying, OK, as we have grown in our strategies and our footprint, we need to bring on more experts that can help in these various spaces, though it’s not something that we’ve done happenstance, very few teaching in time. So where we are, which is also very important for individuals to be mindful of. Yeah, yeah. Mindful that you’ve you’ve identified areas of need that a springboard has grown that you now require. And so you’re expanding the board to bring those experts bring those experts in. Exactly. It’s not like we said, Alice. Bring more boardmember just because it feels like we’re way behind a lawyer. But the lawyer will you see piela? No, not like that. Okay. Yeah. You don’t want lawyers anyway. You you stay away from lawyers. Trust me, we’re bad. I used to be one. I don’t remember the Oh, I’m reformed. Exactly. So you get get reformed attorneys. They’re good because they still have subject matter. Expertise. There may not be able to represent you, but they still have good advice to give. They have a kind of expertise you need exactly. Right. Okay. Okay. That’s exciting. I mean, that growth, that kind of growth. Um Okay. So you’re Yeah. It’s kind of a follow on, too, you know, leaning on your board members, Teo, bring in their networks, you know, do you? Do you subscribe to the belief that you know if if you’re not asking your board members to do enough. Then they’re going to start to get disengaged and bored versus I’m afraid I might be asking him to do too much. I don’t want to impose. You know, I don’t want to take more of their time. They’re already spending ten hours a month. I mean, how do you how do you fall in that on DH? How do you balance that? So far, it’s only balance when we are bringing on board members or with our boardmember very honest about the time commitment and, you know, and also very honest about it. And we’d like, if it were small board, so he empopwering brought on as a constant burghdoff x, y Z, whatever it is that we need. So there may be some months where I leave more heavily protect one particular boardmember than others, and I’ve come to learn that they actually really appreciate that. And for so many of them, they’re bored service. It’s a part of their community service because we don’t have a paid boards where really is their, you know, their service, and they approach vitiate, being able to use their expertise and something differently than how they use it in their ninety five. And so, yeah, I think it just really goes that, too. The being honest about what the demands are of the boards were prior to asking somebody to come on. And I really do by within the space of utilizing the folks that you had at the table. And if it feels like too much, they will let you know whether or not they don’t have the commitment or had to have availability at that particular moment to provide the level of commitment that you may need a But I think you have to ask for what it is that you beat, and that hell is so you have to do everything by yourself. Yeah, there’s like, you have a board, so I don’t have to do everything by yourself. Yes, I’ve had guests on say, You know, you can’t be a subject matter expert in everything there’s on. There’s no time for you to learn And that’s that’s pointless because it takes you away from what your what your own expertise already. Exactly. It takes you away from what the boys hyre todo if I’m over here trying to figure out accounting. That takes me away from all of the other pieces, and I’m supposed to be doing that. It’s not what they hired for, so there’s exactly right. Do you put the board expectations in writing at the recruiting stage? Do you give him a document that lines it out or hat? How do you make sure that they understand for sure what the expectations are, So we don’t do the expectations as faras the times you made a commitment in pieces. But there is when we’re going through the recruitment process, there are conversations will be multiple conversations with me on the conversations with the board chair and conversations with other boardmember. So they have last of opportunities tax question and then also lots of opportunities for various individuals who are connected to the organizations to provide their take on what the commitment looks like and what they needed and what their understanding of the organization. Okay, so you’re saying that several levels of interviews with, with you and board members I don’t like the word interview, the conversation mandatory, mandatory conversations just, you know, trying to feel interested that makes you know we’re tryingto field issues. But also really trying to make sure that we’re being transparent so that we can get the right fit, you know? And sometimes you know the path we on around the new boardmember. And we were really excited about her coming onboard. And I bumped into in, her job changed. And she knew that based on the various conversations that she had had with myself another boardmember, that she no longer would have the time necessary to provide the commitment that we needed. So she elected so, you know, jump off the board, even though she just jumped on the board, and that was good. But I think the expectations ahead of Thai And so before we get six months down the road or so it was, you know, easy for her to say. I know this is no longer want to work for me because we have been very open with our dialogue prior to Yeah, now that that’s the best outcome. If if that was gonna happen, that’s the best way to have it happen. She backs out in advance, bows out, pull my service. She you know, she says, know in advance versus she’s stressed over the commitment that she’s not fulfilling. You’re disappointed because she’s not mating upto the everything that you and you and the other board members laid out far while she was being recruited. You know, I would be disappointed on both sides, but obviously much better just have her back out. Okay? But the lesson is that she understood what the expectations were, and she took it seriously enough to know that she couldn’t fulfill them, so Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, let’s Ah, let me let me take another break, and then we’ll come back, and we’ll talk about a little more formal onboarding and keeping boardmember is engaged. And I even hoped that we could get toe having to remove board members, possibly before there, before their term is up. So we’ll come to that. Okay. Great. Where you see piela? A new archive. Webinar for you. Which is why she was just talking about accounting. It’s accounting update. What has changed this year that Wagner knows unqualified Lee. And you need to know a little bit. For instance, new requirements for financial statements. You’d like to be a little acquainted with it, but you don’t want to have to do them, certainly. And you don’t have to scrutinize him to make sure they meet Muster. But you want to be a little acquainted with the new requirements. That’s what this there there webinars all about. Goto wagner cps dot com Click Resource is then Webinars. Now time for Tony. Take two ActBlue. There are Premier Sponsor at nineteen NTC. The twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference. It’s next month in Portland, Oregon. I presume you’re going because you know that this is the go to conference for people who want to know how to use tech. Smarter in in their organization. You’re if you use a computer, you’re using technology. What can that computer do? More for you that you’re not aware of and make you and your staff more efficient? That’s what ntcdinosaur all about. So you’ll be there. That’s a given. Okay, so we got that. So it’s March thirteenth of fifteenth, but already know that because you’re coming, you already made your plane reservations. What you don’t know is where to find Non-profit radio and Act blew. You would go to the exhibit floor booths five o eight and five. Ten. We’re sharing a booth together. There are sponsors at the conference, which I’m very, very grateful for. They’ll be talking about the power of small dollar donations while I’m capturing interviews for Non-profit radio. Ah, you can learn more about small dollar donations at tony dot m a slash Act blue, and you could see more about what we’re going to be doing together. The swag, the chats, the on site training giveaway that’s all in my video. And that video is that tony martignetti dot com, that is Tony’s Take two. Let’s go back to Aisha nyandoro and your CEO board chair Relations and Onboarding Way just started to touch on a little bit. What’s your What’s your recommendations for? Ah, a non boarding process of Ah Niu boardmember from a recrimination for Onboarding process of new board members is too like that our lawyer have conversations of front with multiple folks with on the board so that they truly understand that process and then do a retreat or training. Pacifica will not retreat. Training no of this facilitated by the board chair just for those in the big who are coming onto the board so that they can have an opportunity to be a relationship with one another tax any more in depth questions that they may have not had an opportunity to ask and then, you know, introduce them to the full board. It’s a pretty scene was processed. So how do you how do you do that? Training? Is it a day or a half a day or something? Or how does that work was, like, half a day, half a day and go through all of the organizational pieces. So for us, that would be going through the strategic plan that would just adopted and making sure that individuals understand the goals that we have. Outline, um, for the next two years talking to the organizational strategies history. Those pieces are accountants sometimes just in and is involved in that process. This they’ll understand our our finances and what that piece looks like. But yeah, I know some individuals through a full day as they get their pants on how large organisation for us, a half day has been sufficient to get that done. Okay, um, and do you have a requirement for how many of the board meetings people need to be physically present for versus virtual or not, You know, we don’t because we are an organization that is based in the city. But we have a footprint, that it crosses various various states, and we have boardmember that live in various states. We have to board meetings that are actually physically in Mississippi twice a year. But all of our other board meetings, we do virtually the zone. So we do not have requirements about whether or not you know how many you attend in person versus online and the reason we don’t do that. It’s because we trust individuals want to be a part of this organization and the part of the board, because it’s not a paid position. And so if you have signed on to give your expertise, we trust that you know you will do that you would show up. You will be engaged in the process. But how many board meetings do you have a year? We have six board meetings a year, Okay? And two of those are on site in Mississippi. Tuitele zoho inside the beans and those way have size in Mississippi are fairly. You know, today is because if you’re going to go through the work of getting individuals here, he could make sure that you’re, you know, handling a lot of good business in the process. Okay. You have some dinners to I mean, you have some social times, I’m sure. Ugo. Yeah, yeah, Way duitz site visit. We, you know, conduct the board, is that we hear from partners that we pack a lot in when we get him here on side. Do you have any formal mentoring for new board members? But would they be meant toward by a longer term? Boardmember You know, we have not done that on, but it really is because we’re such a smile, Gordon, that we have not. I felt that that was necessary. And it also, since our own wrapping process, with the conversation, it so much that that is not a piece that we’ve put in on. And I actually have not thought about that. But now that you mention it, I’m like, let me think about that. But it’s not. It’s something that we’ve put in place. Okay, it’s something I’ve heard from other guests, and I don’t know, maybe as you expand the board makes sense, but just okay. Um uh, okay, so so then Oh, so What do your committee’s what The board committees. So we have a finance committee and we have a government committee, and that is for the most part, pretty much it. You know, we every once in a while, if we have a process of getting it put coming into place, we’ll do an ad hoc committee, like we just in the trash if you do plan. But we had a committee for that. But for the most part, since we are, you know, once again, such a smile board, you know, everyone just works across the board. That’s necessary. But we do have a finance committee in the government committee. You So you’re gonna have to get your going to get out of the habit of saying small board. You’re growing up to nine or ten that I I’ve seen three and four. I mean, I’ve seen thirty. I’ve seen thirteen and fourteen. I’ve seen thirty and forty also. But I know it’s a It’s a midsize board. Maybe. Thats on the small size relative. You’re right. I don’t know, maybe something small size of bid, but I don’t think it’s small anymore. I think it’s on the, you know it is on the average smaller side, but also small, like three or four. So you’re right. And I know better because, you know, I’m on the center for the I’m on the center. I’m on the board. Four men are now process here in this city, So I have seen boards that are three. So you? Exactly. It’s not a smile board. Okay, Um, So where does where does fund-raising fit into your board? Well, I guess I should ask what? Is there much individual fund-raising or is your work more government government fee for service or what’s your revenue? So we have a hybrid is government, you know, its developer fee for service. And it is also larger foundation philanthropies. Fund-raising so. But that with board members, is also where the social capital comes into play, you know, because getting access to the larger funders, you know, it’s a lot of times of war meeting a boardmember. Excuse me. You know, shooting a e mail, um, or having a personal relationship with someone, they Hey, I’m going to this conference, and I really think you should be here as well. So you know that really, where? A lot of fund-raising support comes in with the social capital cities, of course. You know, like Al Gore’s. I’ll be wanting boardmember to give it one hundred percent. A lot of sounds. A lot of salvation, Actually, I do. Look at that right now, require that. But we do not have, you know, a require set up. Now what we ask our board members to give, you know, physically. Okay. Got you. Um, so then keeping these, these new board members engaged. You know, the last thing we want is you mentioned earlier, you know, bored people getting or I said it. And I think we both said it people not filling that They’re that they’re talents are being utilized. They got they brought on the board for a purpose to share their expertise. The last thing you want is them feeling that they’re not being tapped. Um, how do you How do you do? You start getting them engaged. Started in the game for asking questions immediately. And pieces that, you know, there’s a place that I have been struggling in tapping in and getting that done and shooting those emails and asking, you know, for those phone calls they hate can’t beat right quick. I want to touch base with you without X. Y Z Because in so many instances, there are pieces that I really my boardmember than a lot of instances about partners to really help me think pieces that may be critical with something that I’m trying to figure out. A perfect example of that sabat boardmember who is a local business owner here and, you know, really connected with the corporate, you know, funding world. And that’s one of the pieces I’ve been trying to figure out. So, you know, shot him. But I saw him out socially at the special format socially and finishing on the shooter and email because I really want to talk to you about ex wives. And so just using those opportunities to connect with them all pieces that I’ve been thinking about, um, we’re struggling with what their feedback on it doesn’t have to be something that requires a two. A three hour work session. Ah, lot of the things that I need in a lot of instances earlier, you know, twenty, thirty minutes. Strategy conversations. Just four. Simple can. You could make me the X Y Z. Yes, of those pieces. So that’s how I in this. Something is not a heavy list for them is something. Because there has been some time why I needed the boardmember to look at a contract, which was a little heavier lift. But a lot of instances is not a really heavy lift into this about building those connections, building those relationships, making them still involved because they are involved in a larger mission and really allowing them to use their cuts and expertise outside of their day with a job. And, you know, having to be of service. So yeah, I can see how the relationship would just develop over time. You know, you’re just you’re you’re tapping them as needed conversations, You know, you don’t have to. You don’t. You don’t wait for a board meeting. Toe tap, someone. You have a need. You, you, you, you You express it right away like you have a need to express that. You have asked us, President. And even though you don’t know what they can’t but feel that need, they can connect you to somebody who can help you with that. Mita, I gotta take a break, but I will leave you with this. You said you said you. You sought someone out socially. That sounds like stalking to me. I have taken a break. I’m taking a break while you laugh. Excuse me. Uh, tell us, can you use more money? A new revenue source, Perhaps We’re talking about revenue. Right now. 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Thank you so much. Thank you for being with us pleasantries to the podcast audience. Now, let’s go back. Teo. Aisha Nyandoro. Um Okay. So you’re over this stalking thing. I tell you that. It sounded like social, social, seeking out. That sounds like stalking to me. All right, all right. Maybe that’s just my warped head. I’m willing to admit that. That’s just my warped perception of Okay, Um all right, so All right, so we got to keep them engaged. Well, let’s talk about a little bored conflict, I’m sure through the years, um, you’ve had conflicts, uh, whether it was you and a boardmember or between Boardmember Sze. I mean, all the personalities through all these years couldn’t have gotten along perfectly. What do you What’s your advice around around? Let’s say boardmember to boardmember conflict. So thankfully, I have not had any my board. I kid you not. I have had no boardmember boardmember conflict. I have had no conflict with my board members, and I didn’t even know there was a thing. And you brought it up. Oh, come on. That’s it. You know, So that had that I am not had that issue. I would. So for me, I feel obviously, personally powerthru fiction currently have not had that issue. I have a board member on the board before I’ve had conflict come. And when that presented itself for me, I have a decision to leave that board because I felt like my expertise was no longer thou you’re needed. And since for yeah, it’s almost like, you know, I don’t have to be somewhere where I’m What is this? That I am bringing to the table is no longer respected. So I just decided to bow out and leave that process altogether. Yeah, okay. That’s that’s extreme. It must have been bad, you know? Interesting. I don’t know. Have executive that work today help duvette differently. I don’t know, but for beauty, you know, that’s what I decided to do. But I have not had. I’ve not had any conflicts that I’ve had to revive. And hopefully, you know, we will not get to the place where we have a conflict that we have to resolve. What I invest heavily in my personal relationship to each one of my board members. We try to make sure that we’re investing in the Boulder members knowing each other like you know what I said earlier? We have come together and Mr fifty twice a year, and we do build in the social time when we get to mess and have dinner and, you know, try to make sure that we know what’s going on with each other’s families and those things. So we really are trying, Tio. It’s a model, a culture of community as organization because so much of that, as you know, our forward facing work. So we really are trying to model what it is that we say we believe in. Organizationally. All right? And it’s a testament to your recruitment process, like you just said that. But you haven’t had those conflicts. But I’m going to put you in a hypothetical. Suppose you did suppose. Suppose you had a, um suppose you had a difficulty. Lets one that I think is kind of common like one boardmember on dit may not be the chair. It might be, but it might not be just like overbearing in the meetings. He or she talks successively. Take successive time. Ignores the agenda Times fell in every guard, every day that little gee up to the board here, to have a conversation with her counterpart and to resolve that and really point out to them that OK, there’s a process. And we really want to make sure that we’re being mindful Arrival of rule and everyone has an opportunity to be heard and share. So I would act in that regard. I would ask the board chair to step in and have a conversation with her counterparts. Okay. Starting challenge new words that space that I feel like basis, it. And with that, I don’t think that that will be my responsibility. Um, manage that situation. Okay. So peer-to-peer and sort of Pierre. I mean, there is an authority. The board chair is invested with authority over the board so that it’s not exactly peer-to-peer, but I mean, like, volunteer to volunteer. That’s what I mean. Peer-to-peer. But the board chair does have that authority that everybody recognizes. Okay, you know, and I guess if it’s not, if it’s not resolving. You would have to talk about removal, which has never happened for you. Yeah. Gosh, so hard. But yeah. I mean, if the person I don’t know Well, let’s talk it through. I don’t mind talking through. I mean, what if the person is not coming around like they’re just like, Yeah, I like the person’s not coming around. They have made a decision that they no longer want to be there. So I just feel like I don’t like they would have removed them, sells the best situation, You know? I don’t know. B a no. Okay, Well, hopefully they would, um, hopefully they would, but if it’s not once again that will be. Then I will be for the board and, you know, to have a conversation about that in the board chair to make it, you know, toe accent individual to remove themselves from the border to leave the board. Okay, there again. You would lean on your board chair. Yeah, I would have a lien on my board here. Okay. And you’re like that would happen from I think that you have aboard here if head to govern the board. Okay. So, yeah, I would lead on the boys here for that. I can see that. Because, you know, if if you if you were stepping in, then then you’re sort of, you know, your usurping the authority of the board chair. Exactly. Yeah. I want to use the word you starting. Exactly. That’s exactly right. And usurping the usurping the role of the boards here. And quite frankly, stepping out of order, it’s some regard. So you have to resist. Expect that structure that is put into place, put in place for a reason. Okay. Um, are you a member of the board? Uh, ex officio member. I am that you’re not Okay. I know a lot of lot of CEOs are, but they might not be voting. They typically not voting board members because that’s a conflict. Jean Takada and Jean Takagi. And I’ve talked about that. He’s our legal legal consultant, but a lot of but a lot of CEOs are members. OK? You’re not OK. I’ve seen it both ways. And what would you do? So then? I mean, let’s take it a step further. The person is not stepping down. The board chair has done whatever she can. It’s not. It’s not. It’s not effective. Now you’ve got You’ve got a lot of tension on the board. What are we going to do? What would you do? We’re putting out of spite. CEO Seo is the board. Members of the board chair has acted to step down and they’re still not stepping down. I mean, really, alright are not pay. Okay? Alright. He’s maybe she hasn’t asked her to step down, but the all right, Well, I guess a tension continues to build. Then you were just at the person to resign and Yeah, actually person Terry. Okay. Okay. I got you. I got you. Um, how long? How what do your board terms? How long term. So we have your first term of three years. And then you have an option of doing another three year terms that you could do a total of six years. Okay, On our board have you had very many people take take you up on the second the second term? Everybody. It’s a great organization. Yes. There’s never any conflict on the opportunities to spread our board. That’s right. So they thought was going on utilizing their expertise. Who? You know, I’m not wasting their time. I’m not over the banding. I get to parties in here. I get to parties a year in Jackson. I mean, who would turn all this down way walk away from that after three years? I know. I can’t imagine it. All right, we got a carvery way, Got takeout. Very last break. Think about what you want to talk about because I’m going out. I’m going to turn to you and because I’m kind of out of topics. But that doesn’t mean we’re done so think about what you want to talk about. Text to give can use more money a second way. The second revenue source. Here’s another one mobile e-giving learn about it with texted Gives five part email Many course fiv e mails once a day That’s a ce faras. You are away from raising more money on raising it through mobile giving. It’s There’s not a big hurdle to get started. All the gifts are not necessarily small. Lots of misconceptions overcome in this mini course, which I took to give them any course. You text NPR to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. And we’ve got lots of time left. Several more minutes left for your CEO, board chair, Relations. I What do you, uh what do you want? Talk about? What do you want to talk about? Teo? No guy and I was just throwing some things. Nothing specific. I was just you know, I was just trying to generate some ideas about CEO board. Um, stories You got any cases? May be a difficult case. Um, good case. Somebody he wasn’t feeling so good or they were feeling a little disappointed. You were able to bring them back up. Anything like that. What do you mean? I wasn’t feeling so good year. We’ll bring them back. Well, like, you know, they they felt like they were. They were They were not so and not his engages they wanted to be. Or they I don’t know. I’m just I’m just kind of throwing things out. I don’t have You don’t get your board members to ask them what the troubles are. I didn’t I didn’t go to your board and say what? What story. Should I ask? I used to tell I didn’t do that, so I don’t have any of that personally. But I was thinking, you know, we’re thinking about CEO for relationship. I was thinking about the truly smile organizations that you know, the three four, the number board just really start up. Some start up thinking about how, in so many instances, especially when you’re what do your their smiles from Thompson’s feeling like your mom and pop were startup or whatever. The whatever the situation may be that at some time it the board relation can suffer because you feel like so much of your work really does have to be with building the organization and actually doing the work and the service and being a community of whatever it is, you know, really living out that mission. And so this morning, the caution folks that you know as the CEO of executive Power, whatever the title, maybe you know the board relation. As I said earlier, it’s really a big part of your individual mission as the leader of the organization, and you should really look at that as a significant piece of how you get to doing the work in the community and that just be so forward, facing something so many times you feel like you have just have to face outward. And you should, you know, really figure out how to do both simultaneously, the outward facing, you know, the leader of the organization. But then also making sure that you’re looking inward and challenging your board members to help, um, be strategic and supporting us necessary as you’re not placing folks shit. Do not be afraid of their board members, amazed at the number of CEOs and talk to who really don’t feel like they can call and have on his conversations with their board members. And so really challenging folks, just really, you know, invest in a time necessary for those relationships and, you know, don’t have individuals on your board that you don’t feel like you can work with. That. A personal. It’s what was professional. Yeah, investing. So how did I guess you’ve heard this from colleagues? You know, Piers, how did they get to that point? How did How did somebody get on their board that they didn’t feel comfortable working with and tapping, you know, because they Because other boardmember recommended him, and they didn’t feel like they could say no because that person has a really great reputation in the community and just not not leaning into their leadership and understanding that you can say, Oh, I don’t think this is a great fit for this organization And, oh, you know, just because they’re doing x Y Z over here doesn’t mean they need to be doing a B C with us. And so it really does go back to, you know, a CEO having their voice and recognizing that I have a say So what the organizational board looks like and that you really do have to a voice that, uh, yeah, on that goes back to the recruitment process. Yeah, and that there’s a lesson there that the community leaders, the prominent people in town, uh, or the air in the state, You know, whatever are not necessarily the best board members for you for your organization, Wade. Yeah, a lot of times else. Individuals out, you know, could be on four or five different boards already on it. They could be doing great work, and it could be, you know, amazing people and that means, and you didn’t even they don’t necessarily put them on the board. You put them on a committee or something, you know, last sametz needed, but yet it doesn’t mean they necessarily have to be on your board. Um, so just, you know, knowing what it is that you need and being being really strategic with the limited seats that you have, because, you know, you have a limited number of seats that you can feel in your board. So, thinking through what makes the most sense for they’ll seek section have Okay, we got just, like, forty five seconds left, So I’m gonna leave it to you, Teo, give parting thoughts, My parting thoughts. That’s a lot of really think it will affect your relationship between the CEO and the board chair. And that relationships should be one of mutual trust and respect and openness. And it is a beautiful being. One done, right? Awesome. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Tony. I appreciate pleasure that our flu she is she is ceo of springboard opportunities. You can follow her at Aisha. Underscored Nyandoro, and you find springboard at springboard to dot or GE next week have ever let you down. I know one time there was the fermentation show. I was young. I was naive. It was a youthful transgression, locker room banter. And to the extent I may have hurt some hyper sensitive people who might have been unreasonably offended, I deeply and sincerely wish I could apologize for the fermentation show. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P by Wagner CPAs. Guiding you Beyond the numbers regular cps dot com. Bye, Tello’s credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream, Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine Ah, creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by Scots. Dine with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the either ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What Wait Thank you. 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