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Nonprofit Radio for October 26, 2018: HTTPS & Does Your Website Suppress Giving?

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Ben Byrne & Katherine White: HTTPS
Do you need the security of HTTPS for your website and how easy is it to start implementation? Probably and quite. Our panel is Ben Byrne with Cornershop Creative and Katherine White from Kanopi Studios. (Recorded at #18NTC, the Nonprofit Technology Conference.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rachel Clemens: Does Your Website Suppress Giving?
Rachel Clemens is concerned that your website is holding you back from raising all the money you can. Are you confusing donors? Overloading them? She’s chief marketing officer at Mighty Citizen. (Also recorded at the Nonprofit Technology Conference.) It’s website day!

 

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with strep. Oh, simba, leah if i had to read that you missed today’s show working virtual we talk through the issues encountered when managing remote staff technological, generational, emotional measurement, recruiting and retaining. Our panel is heather martin from inter faith family and alice hendricks with jackson river. I was recorded at eighteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference and map your data to your audiences. Feed your folks the data they crave. Courtney clarke and david mask arena have identified five audience types and their data needs she’s with forum one and he’s fromthe conrad and hilton foundation that’s also recorded at eighteen. Auntie si, tony, take two who’s on first, we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising david driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant capital p well, you see, piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps dot com bye! Tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Here’s working virtual welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference twenty eighteen we’re coming to you from the convention center in new orleans second interview of the second day of our coverage all our ntcdinosaur interviews are sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guests right now are heather martin, ceo of inter paid family, and alice hendricks, ceo of jackson river. Heather alice, welcome. Thank you. Welcome to non-profit radio. What have you wanted to be here ? How’s ? The conference going for you ladies ? Great. Have you done ? Yeah. Excellent. Okay, great. Next one. That goes good. Superlative. Have you done your session yet ? We did. We were on yesterday morning. Okay. So, it’s all relaxing now ? Right now, we’re just partying. Drinks last night. Exactly. Okay, all right. Your workshop topic is working virtual attracting and managing the best talent. I’m sure we have stats on how many organs non-profits have virtual employees. Or at least what the trends are. It’s it’s obviously growing. It’s really growing wouldn’t be here. And not only in the nonprofit world in the for-profit world as well, and especially in tech. Yeah, okay, absolutely it’s becoming it because of the technology that can enable easily to work from home, your chat technologies, videoconferencing, it’s become a thing and everyone is doing it now on exploring whether it works for their organizations a lot. Let me dive into the word, everyone not to quibble with you at all, but i was thinking generationally, are there fifty and sixty some things that are comfortable working, being virtual ? Not well, maybe we’ll get to whether they’re comfortable having virtual employees. They will get to that. My voice is cracked like i’m fourteen get that, but how about being virtual employees themselves ? Are they comfortable ? I’m over fifty, so include myself in that ? Are we comfortable doing that ? Or, you know, i think it actually depends on the organization and it’s really dependent on the organization making the employees comfortable, and so i’m not sure i don’t know if you have any stats, but i don’t know from an age perspective, there’s a very good question about an older generation being comfortable having virtual employees under the managing them, however, as being the virtual employee, i think it’s all about how the organisation sets it up. Okay. Excellent. All right, so that there’s promised them for those fifteen. Sixty something ? Absolutely. Okay. Okay, let’s, talk about it. Since since we’re skirting around it, how about comfort or discomfort with having employees being virtual when you’re over fifty ? So i again, i i think that there might be an age discrepancy in the comfort, but i also think it’s just personality, and i’m finding that when i talked to a lot of people who are looking to work virtual and they’re asking me, what can i do to go to my manager, my supervisor and quote unquote, sell them on me working virtually my answer to them is find out what the resistance is. There is part of the resistance as we’ve always done it this way i need to see my employees to know that they’re working. And how do you get around that ? Some of the key things that we talked about in our session are setting very clear goals and making sure that those goals are being met. But let’s, go to alice talk to flush out the gold. Gold setting a little. Yeah, i mean, i think that there’s not that much difference in terms of goal setting in terms of accountability for delivery, bols, that you’re supposed to be doing so used that the real issue is communication making sure you have a structure where there’s frequent communication and proof that you’re doing the delivery ble. So you’re measured not on a punch clock style of i get to work at nine. And i leave at five. And therefore i must have worked during that eight hour period you’re measured based on what is the work you were set out to do. And did you actually do that work in the time period ? I said i would do it. So if you’re a project manager are working on a program area you work with your you work with your supervisor on here, the things that i’m going to get done at a particular time. And if that’s not done that’s ah, that that could be a concerned that’s a problem, but that’d be a problem in the non workplace too, but rather than time. It’s mostly based on work product. Okay, okay. So that should apply even if you don’t have any virtual, i think one of the things we found is that working virtually is this, or managing virtually is the same as managing in an office. But you just have to be much more intentional about what you’re doing. Much more intentional about your communication, understanding that you’re not gonna have that water cooler conversation, that someone’s not going over here. Something and understand where you are in a project and b ready to communicate with those people who are not physically in the office. But the management and the psychology of the management is very similar. Okay, it’s, very valuable, you know, and make explicit. Yeah. How about attracting people, teo a virtual or attracting the right talent so that we’re comfortable that they’re gonna work in this work environment ? What do you, what you thought ? Well, there’s. Two thoughts on that that i have one is what one is that your talent pool is the entire country or world, should you see fit ? And there are wonderfully talented people in places that aren’t in the city or town in which your organization is located, and it gives you this ability to recruit from a wide place. And you can also hyre incredibly talented people from who have a wonderful life style. In a less cost of in my organization, we have people who live in a lower cost of living state than washington, d c where were based, and that allows me to provide a living wage and for my employees in that. But the other thing is just you, when you’re recruiting, you have to be very mindful of the interview process, and i think one of the things we talked about in our session was helping people figure out who these folks, how well they’ll respond to working virtually how do you do that in an interview ? Yeah, who’s best with that, heather so so some of the things that that we recommend, some of the things that we recommend is number one, we use technology as a tool to enhance communication in a virtual environment. So sometimes you’re using video comp, renting just for a regular meeting, and you’re talking through instant messenger and there’s other ways you’re using technology. So in the interview process, i always recommend that people use the technology that you’re going to require those employees to be using during their job if they can’t do an interview on skype or zoom or appearance and it’s very uncomfortable, it’s not to say that that might not be a good employee for you, but you have to be aware that there might need to be some training or development on that tool for them and no going. Into that is important when you’re hiring that person, and if you see generally a discomfort with technology that’s a pretty big red flag, or or or a red flag that you might need to overcome or that person’s not right for the position, and then the other question is some positions just don’t lend themselves to working virtually, and you have to be aware of that when you’re hiring also what are from ? Well, one of the easiest ones that we look at it if you’re an office manager and you’re managing the physical office days, it’s really difficult to be virtual when you need thio notice that there’s a crack in the ceiling where the vendor needs toe, you know, deliver something and be their way. We don’t have a tool for measuring the coffee level. Zack remotely happen. And now there’s an app for that you can probably it’s time for a break pursuing they’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They want you to see this because they’ve taken the secrets from the fastest growing startups and applied those to your non-profit it’s free as all the pursuant resource is, are you accustomed to that ? Come on, it doesn’t even bear saying it’s on the listener landing page that’s at do you know where tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for please now back to working virtual or any others that stand out to you ? I think it depends on the industry and what the job you’re doing. If you’re someone who does intake or you have to be there to welcome people into the office, you need someone physically there. There may be hybrids where sometimes people could work in the office and sometimes people could work from home. And i think thinking this through before you moved to a virtual environment or virtual job for that specific role is ki you can’t just say, ok, tomorrow we’re just gonna go virtual zoho alice, how do you how do you create this environment ? Gonna be hospitable ? Toe virtual ? I mean it’s all about culture. You have to create a culture where everyone is communicating well with each other, where people know what the expectation is on response times of communication has got to start at the top. It has to start a willingness that you absolutely to accommodate virtual employees. Okay, so it starts there and how does that how does the ceo trickling down ? You adhere to it. So rather than walking from my office into someone else’s office and telling them what i think they should know that maybe two other people who aren’t physically, they’re also need to know i will do that on a slack channel, for example. So i’ll use an instant messenger chat program, and i’ll put them all on the channel and talk to them all together at once, even though you were the mark, even if that’s the situation. Yeah, because it requires amount of discipline because you don’t want to leave people out. The interstitial conversation that happens at the water cooler can also be done virtually and that’s pretty important, too. Okay. All right. We’re going to get the tools you mentioned. Slack, slack channel. Is that that it’s ? All okay, okay. A chat. It’s. Simple chance a chance. A chance for you. You’re over my head, but i’m trainable. Alt-right i could be a virtual employees trust way. Mind of some technology challenges there, but we could get there. I’ll be there immediately. Got the radio stuff ? Yeah. I’m very good at that. I mean, i got knobs and everything in front of buttons and all. I don’t know what they do. Okay, what else ? Uh, anything else about creating the environment, making inhospitable ? I think some of the things that seem or some of the other things are making sure that your remote employees have the tools, whether it’s, the technology or even a monitor to go along with that laptop that you’ve given them because some some people who go into a new job, they’re given a laptop, they say work from home and it’s not as easy as just is your home office conducive and being able to help them think through what are the things that they need to set up in a virtual environment to make them successful and effective at what they’re doing. We talked about it a little bit about security and knowing what the security measures are. You can’t go into a coffee shop and work from your computer. Number one. Are you on the y fire you on the public wifi ? Are you on a virtual private network ? Are you using your hot spot ? You’ve to go the bathroom and your computer’s sitting in starbucks do you leave it there and ask the person next youto watch your computer while you go to i mean, we set policies around these things, especially in organizations that have a lot of regulations on data and accessibility for their information. These are things you have to think about when you’re creating a virtual environment. Okay ? It could be hip, baby what’s the credit card p c m p c i b c i okay, what do you do when you’re at starbucks alone ? You’re on you’re on a vpn virtual private network ? Yeah, you have to go the bathroom. You gotta close up. You use the diaper changing table in and you pull it down in the restroom and put your laptop on that. Take care of your business. Okay ? It’s ? Very. You know, i love the ditty gritty. This are listen, i mean, we’re all about real life here. Way need detail. You need clear policies around policies that people sign and everyone is very well aware of what the security policies, our protection use of technology. You said the company’s versus your pride, your personal technology home versus away from home. Okay, all right. Help me out here. Getting else what else belongs all this ? What else belongs in our policy ? Well, so there’s, we’re talking about there’s communication policies. How ? I mean, one of the things that we found when we first started having more virtual employees. We started as an in office, evan was in the office, and as we grew into different communities, we had employees in different cities and states than our headquarters were located in and things like when i sent an email, i just need you to acknowledge that the email resent if you’re in the office and i send you an e mail and you haven’t responded, i could walk into your office and say, hey, you get my e mail even if you’re not ready to respond to it. I know you’ve gotten it, and by five o’clock that day, i’ll get an answer when someone’s virtual and you send an e mail, you have no idea if it got lost, did it go into their spam and you have to get some kind of communication with one quick got it. So we said a communication policy that says if i asked you something or requested something, you send an email back saying, i got it, and i’ll get back to you by wednesday period the end it’s all set, and so that that you need to be very much more aware of those types of things and other community way have communication policies that go along with that. Okay, alice, you want teo or policy statement ? I mean, the security, i think, is the most important, you know, the email security, the hacking potentials. You know what happens also, when someone is let go, the lockout procedures, they have access to all of your systems, and they’re, you know, in north dakota somewhere to coffee shop, you have to shut down all of their access to things. So all of that needs to be planned at the level in the company. What are you going to do and how you handling staff with remote devices ? Can we do this if we don’t have a dedicated staff person ? And we don’t have a dedicated staff person ? Yes, face-to-face so the family says the answer is yes, okay, because are you know, we’re small and midsize non-profits in this audience, listeners. So you you on board someone with technology when they leave, you do the same thing on lee with a virtual person, you don’t physically have them there, and so you have to do the same thing you would do if someone was in the office, but make sure you couldn’t do it while they’re not physically there. How did they get your computer back to you ? Do they fedex it to you ? Are you going to go pick it up somewhere if they’re not there ? And so just those types of things need to be thought through, okay ? No. Excellent. I love the policy statement details because this is stuff you have to think through, and then alice to your point, has to be activated, implemented on from the top absolutely can’t just have a policy and ignore it. You know, if if it’s the ceo hyre it’s a sea level person whose whose distant you know, they too have to say, i got your e mail and i’ll get back to you by wednesday, everybody has to play by the same rules. There shouldn’t be exceptions or any accommodations or anything else. Yeah. Okay, um, how about let’s talk about some of the needs that your remote staff has we’ve been talking about managing the office ? What what special needs to the people ? But we only see a couple of times a year that’s a great question, okay ? I mean, i think they way it took that long, they need community, they need a partner, they need a buddy, they need to know that they’re not all alone. I’m so frequent meetings daily standup calls on dh heather’s organization native oppcoll standup called well, it’s a it’s, a phrase for a daily time when you just spend fifteen minutes sort of roll going around the company’s saying who’s doing what that day or our a team, if you’re working on a project together, you know everyone’s together on either a video chat or a conference call, or it could even be during us dahna slack channel or a skype group or a google hangout, or any type of technology that people can come together for a period of time. The more frequent that happens, the more connected they feel, and there is an issue of feeling lonely, it’s not that you’re just going off on your back room and typing all day long on your own, you need to be part of a community and part of a team. And the technology helps enable that. And heather’s organization there’s you do ? What is it a buddy ? So anyone who is new who comes on board there’s a couple things we do one is, no matter what level you’re at, you come to boston for a couple days, toe on board. You actually see physical people that’s probably essential. It’s, really ? It was one of like he learnings when i started working virtually is to know that there’s a physical person and a physical space or just seeing meeting someone face-to-face gives you much more of a connection to them immediately. The other thing we do is when we hire people we kind of give them we give them a partner. So we hyre associate director her in l a and we put them with the associate director in atlanta. This is not a mentor. This is not a supervisor. This is someone you can ask the dumb questions too. Like, how do i get my expenses paid ? Or i’m sure they told me this during orientation, but i don’t know what. To do about x, y and z and just having that person that you know you can go to is critical, especially when you’re by yourself in an office or in your home, and you’re trying to go up the learning curve of starting a new job. Okay ? All right ? What else ? Uh, anything else to be a empathetic to our remote employees again, this is a typical management. I would say this you should be doing this any time is just everyone’s intent is good. Assume that is good and there’s a good intent all all the time. That could be that that that’s going to have implications for chatting any female ? No, you can’t you’ll never hear the well, not never, but most of the communications you’re not going to hear the inflection in the person you don’t see the sometimes you don’t see the physical, you don’t see the physical, you don’t get the inflection, and so before you jump into anything or someone sent and i get this all the time and sends me an email and says i need blank, well, that could be taken in so many different ways. Are you demanding something from me did ice not get you something there’s so much in just those three words ? And so my first thing is tio okay, they have good intentions. Let me follow-up you need blank by when ? What is this for ? Get mohr information, they’re not now. They could be like you haven’t done something, i need it now and could be screaming it could be screaming at you with the default is the default is not do that and what we do actually, as we have everyone’s created communications charter that says how they like to be interacted with. And so i understand if you are one of these people who sends very short emails, i also have the flipside where someone sends me seven paragraph emails to describe one thing. And so if i understand how you interact, i could read that email with that understanding, not teo immediately assume that you’re yelling at me in the e mails. Excellent. Okay, very valuable. Are anything else ? Anything else to be supportive again ? Empathetic to the remote employees if we covered it, recovered it ? But i want to make sure we’re the only other thing i can think of is definitely getting together at least once a year with the whole team culture building wants that, yeah, it’s tough, it’s, tough in a non-profit environment where you’ve got a very tight budget, but we have prioritized and all in person meeting in boston, so we’ve got staff in california, in chicago, in atlanta and philadelphia. We make sure that we try in our budgeting process to bring everyone to boston for two days during the summer, not only for good brainstorming and thinking and strategy conversations, but also so they can connect with each other and have that community and build that in person conversation and feel comfortable with each other, and you feel like once a year is sufficient, you know, if i had the budget to do it more, i want a little longer, but all of that, yes. And so you have to take it for one of the that the tools that we talk about is the airplane. I mean, yes, it’s expensive, but it’s a really helpful tool to really get past some of the boundaries that are put up when you don’t actually physically meet in person. Alice, do you have a virtual employees also ? Jackson river, thirty thirty. Thirty. Revoting entire organization is ritual. Oh, my god. Okay, where’s, the is there a physical office ? There is a physical office with three people in washington d c yeah, but so we all behave as if were virtual. And there are many days that i don’t go into the office so in it. So you know, it saves a lot of money and transportation costs. It stays dry cleaning bills for everyone. It saves child care expenses. If you know it’s a very great way to have a lifestyle. Because yu yu have that flexibility, there’s also downsides to it. There are days that i wake up in the morning at six a, m and check email and all the sudden it’s too. And i haven’t eaten breakfast yet. And then i’m until six at night. So you know it’s a the same type of work-life integration needs to happen in a virtual environment as well as a physical office space. You know, you need to know how to take a break. You mentioned saving childcare expenses. So so the the remote employee it needs to be understood that the remote employee may not be immediately accessible right for a quick, you know, for for a last minute way gotta talk right now. So i think it’s about have something going on that is going to hold him up for ten or fifteen way try and make sure that people have adequate coverage to do their job during the day, the hours that they need to work. So we have a lot of employees that are at thirty hours a week because they want to spend more time with their families. Um, older children can be met at the bus stop and take care of themselves for a few hours in the afternoon, but the expectations of performance are still there. You know, we’re pretty high street standards of that, you know, we don’t want you to be distracted from your work. He managed the west coast versus east coast. Well, what is the west coast people have to do ? The westfield people have to start at six a m local time. I think a lot of people do different policies on that. Our policy is that you work for the day that work the business day in the time zone in which you live. So it’s, sometimes hard if we’re dealing with europe and the west coast at at the same time because the time zones i don’t overlap is, well, every boy’s in europe, we don’t have employees in your body to have clients in europe. So it’s ah it’s a situation where we have to manage that, but there are organizations that have west coast people working east coast, ours you have that way don’t have explicit policy that you work those hours, but we ask people how early on the west coast, how early would you be willing to have a meeting ? So we will not set meetings with some people ? Some people are early morning people and they would rather work from seven to three rather than nine to five, and so we’ll work with your schedule individually and so we so there are some meetings i will have on the west coast is seven o’clock in the morning, but that’s due to that person willing to do that, we have a few minutes left still let’s talk about some of the tech tech tools back-up that was i gotta ask you about slack. But what ? Black dot com how ? Do we find it or what you do for us ? Blackbaud comets, how you find it, you know, it’s it’s equivalent to skype or there’s google chat any type of chat software where everyone can log into and then there’s you can make groups in them. So the term for a group in slack is called a channel. And in our organization we have a channel for one of the channels is named lunch and if you’re going to be away for twenty minutes are going to lunch. We just take we just like everyone who’s in the company on that channel and say, hey, stepping away for a bit, i’ll be back in half an hour so we are all know it’s almost a cz though you would see me walk out the door, you know, and i instead of walking out the door i’m just telling that channel what’s happening there’s channels for each project also. So slack is a good one. Scott argast black is already a verb. Just like someone you’d like someone it’s a verbal. You skype someone you trust someone. Do you remember a well, instant messenger ? That that was a one man was that you could use that well, i was. But okay, so slack for for chatting. A quick, quick chat about document sharing is simple google docks or something better. It’s a simple a school back and microsoft has a great year. We have this product microsoft’s one dr sharepoint microsoft suite has has a document sharing software. Ah, cloud based saving system skype is now skype for businesses and integrated with it. And so we’re using that in the office and then there’s there’s a ton of independent ones out there. And it’s, whether it’s, videoconferencing or it’s document sharing or it’s chatting there’s a ton out there. And i think it could be overwhelming. And for us it was evaluating what was best for our organisation and what our upper management was able. Teo use we talked about this before is modeling the behavior you want from your staff and so getting upper management on board was key. So one of our project management software we use a sauna, and we’ve tried three or four of them and our ceo like hassan, and so if she was going to use a sauna, we’re all going to use this on you and so i think that’s really important. It’s got to be easy to use and work for your organization. Calenda ring simple is good calendar ring, yet you have any other tools besides google calendar ? We’re using outlooks calendar. Yeah, okay. Microsoft again. Yeah. All right. I think what other categories we need. Teo a video chat video is really important to scrape. A couple couldn’t do one on video with skype you khun duvette dio with google hangouts, but any time you can actually have an opportunity to see someone’s face and most of the calls we try to do as videos on dh, we find that that works really well. River again, the sense of community and if you can’t get together, that’s almost the next best thing and video has come a long way. The technology is more seamless than ever before, and so at least you’re seeing the person you might not get all of the nuance of the physical that that’s in the room. But you can see it in emotion or you can see a reaction to something which is super helpful or their cat walking of the cat we could get a lot of pets walking in front of the camera while people are on video that’s gonna be a lot of fun to talk about cats, but, you know, you have thirty virtual employees. You have fun doing it. I mean, oh, it’s awesome. Oh, it’s completely awesome is i love it. And well, you know, the best thing is that that people have really formed strong relationships with each other, they when you ask them what they like most about working here is they say each other, they say the people i’m here because i have connected relationships with other people on the team and to be able to create a culture where people feel connected to each other in a remote environment is is like, that’s the thing i’m most proud of, anything we’ve ever done, it doesn’t have to do their software product or what we’ve done to impact non-profits is the fact that we’ve had a culture of people that have had a wonderful time working and doing productive, impactful things. Jackson river always had a largest proportion of employees virtual from the beginning, when the beginnings and the culture to start about about it in the family way started as a two and a half person organization in the same way got to probably about eight to ten people in the office. And then our growth took us into different cities and communities. And that’s when we became virtual because of the growth, and so were probably half in the office in boston. And then half of our staff is outside and there’s one or two people in a city by themselves. We’re gonna leave it there. Excellent. Very much. Thank you. Alright. They are heather martin, ceo of interfaith family and alice hendricks, ceo of jackson river. This interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. And this is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc ladies. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Way. We need to take a break. Wagner, cps. Do you need help with your nine ? Ninety or your brooks ? Are your brooks or your books of those books ? And brooks properly managed ? Well, i could help you with the books. Eyes financial oversight in place so that your money isn’t going to fly out the door over the brook talkto wagner, partner, eat huge tomb. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust him. He’ll be honest about whether wagner is able to help you. You know where to go. Wagner, cps dot com now, tony steak too. I was at the lou costello statue in paterson, new jersey. Remember lou costello of abbott and costello and who’s on first. So what’s the connection, i hope, you know what’s on first is you’ve got to know that i mean who’s on first. Now who’s, what’s on second. I don’t know’s on third. I hope you know what i’m talking about. The connection is you gotta have some sense of history because this this comedy routine and the abbott and costello you they were from the forties, and if you want to be really successful, implant giving and you going to be actively talking to planned giving donors, you need to have some sense of history from the forties or fifties and vietnam. My video is that tony martignetti dot com now it’s time to map your data to your audience. Nces, welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntcdinosaur the twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference day two we’re kicking off our date to coverage with courtney clarke and david mask arena all of our eighteen ntcdinosaur views are sponsored by network for good, easy to use donor-centric software for non-profits courtney clarke. Hello. Hello to you. Welcome. Let me give you a proper introduction. David, you could say hello. Hello, david. Mastering it from the convent and hilton foundation introduced himself. All right, david happens to be the digital communications manager at the conrad hilton foundation. And courtney clarke is managing director of user experience forum one. Welcome. Good morning. Thanks for having us kicking off. Thanks for kicking off with us. Hey, happy to be here. You’re workshop topic is data and audience connecting to create impact. Okay, let’s, start with you. David. What do you think ? Non-profits aren’t getting quite right in this subject. Like, why do we need this workshop ? To be honest with you, tell you, please beyond yeah, don’t wear really blunt with the arika there’s a lot of data collection that’s happening in the nonprofit sector, but people don’t really do anything with it. There’s like a statistics where it’s like a very, very small percentage of non-profits you do something with data ? And, you know, for example, there’s so many data points that in any day, that non-profit collectibe we have overload, i mean, really was data over there’s like there’s, like this just beautiful dash was like, what do we do with this ? You have to stay close to michael, okay ? All right, so we’re overloaded. So courtney, what we’re trying to do and have you had your workshop yet ? Yes, we had it yesterday, so you’re on the downside. Yeah, this is easy for you. So what you were doing and then ? And what we’re going to do now is trying make sense of data that well don’t feel overloaded. Well, it’s, it’s mostly around communicating data and really being clear about who your audiences are when you’re doing that cause we have identified five different data, sort of consumers or data people who will consume your data, but they all need different amounts of information, different formats. So for example, like a data consumer, this is like an interested person in the public. Maybe they’re a news consumer. They don’t have a lot of domain knowledge always, and they don’t have a lot of data skills, so what, you’re giving them is going to be very different than, say, a policy maker or a date. A producer. Okay, someone who’s more in depth in the details of it already knows, has has a yeah, you’ve identified let’s. Take it from there. We’ve identified five different audiences. Is that right ? That’s ? Different, different types of audiences. Okay, what are what are the five ? We should start there. Yeah. That’s okay, what ? Five ? I’ll start. Okay. The next one. So data consumer two and then three e before there’s a ping pong tournament here. But we’re not. We’re not going out today. Okay, fair enough. So first is i mentioned the data consumer. This is i hate it when people say general public, because here you’re not really targeting everyone in the whole world. So let’s be a little bit more specific news consumers, people who are already interested a little bit. Okay, okay. Like i said, not a lot of dough mean knowledge. Not a lot of data skill. What you’re calling this group the data consumer. So this is the person you’re like scrolling through your news feed you’re looking at your phone. Ahn, do you see an instagram ? Post or something on facebook, or even in the press in the news. And what do you see ? You see an infographic that’s, simple right language that’s easy to understand. The point is very clear. That’s for the data consumer. They don’t have a lot of power, but there are a lot of those people. Okay ? Hey, name another one. The next one is the data actor. So this is who everybody is targeting. This is decision makers, policymakers on dh. These folks may have some domi. Knowledge may have a lot of durney domain knowledge, but they don’t have time. So even if they do have dana skills, the ability to analyze and understand massive amounts of data didn’t have time to do that. They have analysts who are helping them do that sort of thing. But very important people. They have the staff, they have the cloud. They have our policymakers decision. Is that right ? Yeah. Okay. Okay, david, just give us our remaining three. So, of course, to consume someone has to share it. So you got a date ? A promoter. So these were the bloggers he got you get the journalist. The advocacy for folks. This software developers, the entrepreneur. So these people are the ones who are, like projecting that data out there so that the consumer and the actor be able to see that. And then you have the analyst, which is very, very important a lot. You missed this one too. It’s, like now i have all these data is beautifully being shared out being read, who in a way is a domain expert, this staffer that’s going to be able to analyze and help advice, what to do with the data. And then finally, the researcher you got, you know, these air, the phd folks, these are you know, i was talking about like jin ho was their learning officer, that comet and hilton foundation she’s a researcher, and we recently did a site visit nairobi, kenya, for one of our grantees, shopko shining hope for community and they have rich, rich data they’re collecting around there, committing kibera and compare, by the way, is the largest of informal settlement in africa and think about, like, a size of, you know, central park in a compressor that seven thousand people and there’s so much data that they’re collecting about the community and helping them with their health care and, you know, with an education and such and community services in the way when she’s taught dana, she was just, like, drooling all over it. But she’s, like, i want to do something that and she’s such an academic she just wants to, like, basically designed something around it. So these air, like the data modelers is with the academics of phd folks that will help let’s take the data to a new level. Alright, much so our audience is small and midsize. Yeah, non-profit twelve thousand. So we’re talking a lot of people there in small, small and midsize shop. Yeah, they need to identify which of these audiences they’re talking to some some may never be talking to to the researcher, right ? Or the or the data actor. They might not be doing lobbying, so they may not be. So you have to identify which audiences you’re talking to, right ? You guys hear me ? Okay. And your headsets ? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. I don’t hear myself too well, but as long as you hear me, ok, you have to identify who you’re talking to you and then okay, so so i guess we’re going to get through now there are different data needs different ways of conversing about data with data to each of these different audience that’s right ? You don’t have that, right ? Yes, we’re mapping needs and method to the five different audiences and the knowledge that they have tio and the time, right ? So i mentioned the policymaker. They may have some expertise. They don’t have time right on time, don’t time like the researcher. Whereas the researchers, like, get out of my way. Just give me the spreadsheet, all query my own database, okay ? And then also in the spirit of being totally honest, so they have to be honest with yourself who you’re going to deliver the data to, like. If it’s your board, it’s your board and it’s. Okay, you know, and some people are like, oh, this is only for one very specific orders and that’s. Good, you know, because they’re being very, very honest with yourself. Okay, very good. So let’s, start with the ones that are most likely for a small and midsize not to be talking. So certainly data consumer. Yeah. That’s your nose. Your nose could be your donors. I know you’re not calling your donor’s, maybe even just board members. Okay ? Data actor. Maybe it could be any decision maker that could be your board as well. It could be. It could be your boss. It could be somebody who is influencing budgets influencing programming. This is the person who has the power to make a change. So it’s therein you figure out which ones were going teo so they’re they’re in data promoter. That could be a journalist. Yes. Right. So that’s potential. The analyst remind me. What’s what’s the likelihood of a small mid size shot talking to the analyst sometimes yeah, for smaller medium non-profit portable. Forget it. Yeah, yeah. Bonem altum but scale that xero scales up now we’re not going right. We’re not going treatable, but let’s, just talk about it, okay ? I think what i think what’s different, though, for smaller midsize non-profits is that the people listening may be the ones doing the analysis themselves. They may not have a supper analyst. Okay. Yeah, and many came from currently hilton foundations. They get smaller foundation. And a lot of us were multiple hats. So someone might be liberta both, but yet, yet they still move every important. Okay ? They’re all in. Okay ? Yeah. All right. So what do we do for the data consumer ? How do we have a retailer to that audience ? Yeah. They’re a couple of key things. That’s. What we need. Yeah. So one is use plain language when you’re communicating to them, they may not know who you are, what you do, why it matters. Plain language is really key. Sometimes people get a little too marketing me. Sometimes they get a little too research. E you need to be able to say what you want to say in a really simple visual with some simple language like you’re talking to your friends. Yeah, we were at a dinner party. You’ve got ten seconds to explain what this is and what matter-ness schooling for. Graphic. That will do it for you or something like that, right ? Or even just like a data point point. Okay, we got to take a break. Tell us, for pete’s sake, think of the companies you can refer and start asking them that’s the first step. Well, actually, the first step is watching the video. Then you start referring the companies and talking. To them, you’ve heard the testimonials from the charity’s. You’ve heard the testimony from the companies. It’s. Time to get that long stream of passive revenue for yourself. Start with the video. That is the first step video. Is that tony dot, m a slash tony tello’s. Now back to courtney clarke and david mask arena from eighteen. Ntc what’s. The summary. Yeah, and a couple of that with something you mentioned visually could be motion. Could be a visual visualization of data. It could be a story. It could be a video that couples with the data because just it’s. Just a lot more impact for when you, when you when you pair it, but okay, let’s, start to make sense. Your data consumer is gonna be a lot more interesting story then your analyst or your research eggs ? Absolutely. And during our session yesterday, there are people in the audience who talked. We talked a lot about how we paired data with stories because the narrative makes it so much more riel, it elevates the people that are actually being affected by this data. So there were some great stories about that. Okay, okay. Back-up let’s, go to the well, anything else about the consumer ? I mean, this is this is this is probably our largest constituency. Yeah, so i think the other thing is to be clear about what action you want them to take because your data should support that action don’t just and and actually that came up from an audience member yesterday who said people weren’t being moved by the data and so that’s why they started pairing it with stories and once somebody gets hooked and they feel those heartstrings being cold or they feel that passion rise that’s when you gotta capitalize and be really clear what the action is, whether it’s donating, volunteering on asking for more information yeah, signing up for the male daughter, give us your new gives your email yeah, and think about the safety step back a little bit this like you have to identify goal, like whether you’re trying to accomplish with this data set and it would help you help you with to decide like what to share in how to share that welfare that’s always important place to start gold. What was the purpose of this, exactly what we’re trying to move people and then we try to move people to do and then be clear about exactly called. Okay ? That’s, right ? And the goal is the hardest part. Frankly, knowing the goal is the hardest part. It’s on so simple, but it’s like that ask why five times you got to get to the real root of why you’re doing this. All right ? We’re talking about our actor actor. Okay, refresh my recollection, who’s, this decision makers, policymakers, people who are going to make the change that you want, sir. Yeah. Okay. Okay. How do we talk to these people that data. So the format is briefings sometimes it’s in the form of a press release. They need, like, think about a policy maker who has a staff and maybe they have to vote on a bill or make a decision. The staff member is the one who’s calling non-profits calling agencies and saying what’s happening in my district around this topic. So being able to slice your data by topic and location is really valuable to these folks and getting this summary out and again the action. What ? Why does this matter and their actions going to be different than the consumer ? Usually you’re looking for a decision, a vote, something exactly what you want to say more about the actual, i think something that’s adjustable something that if you could package it for them, like staying here, the key takeaways from this a swell, you know, think of this, like, you know, you know, working the communications team. And, you know, we provide press kits for people. And if you could provided that, you know, so so they could easily digest and help, um, guide them through the decision making process, i think will be the key. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And i guess also keeping in mind you you may not be talking to the principal. Yeah, right, right. It could be a staff staff, something. Usually it is so it’s. Gotta be it’s. Gotta be so your your urine for always going through someone to the decision maker way don’t love that. Right ? Twice removed, twice removed from your there once removed from your data. Yeah, it happens. I mean, that’s what ? Any communication, though. Anytime you’re putting something out, somebody could take it. Andi at their own commentary around it. That’s what ? The data promoter that’s a that’s a benefit in a risk, right ? Because they could date a promoter could be multiplying. Your audience is your audience, but they could be putting their own message. They could be manipulating the data in a way that may not be true to it. But, you know, were you everybody has had, you know, that journalist didn’t get the quote quite right ? Yeah, you are taking over simplification exactly. If the press often has to do to make something interesting to readers, you know, put in a headline. Yeah, yeah, and the promoter should also think about, like, segmenting looking if they could do, like, a more targeted in a way, like, if they know specifically that they’re going to try to communicate. Teo, i think they’ll be the key as well. And you get to know your trusted data promoters, right ? You know, the journalists or the bloggers are the advocates who you trust, who you align with the messaging around. So identifying those folks or maybe you don’t know them and you do a little research and you find out who you are, where, wes, you need to know within your sector who the influencers are. Absolutely yeah, i get a little bit of research. Goes a long way. Yeah. Back-up how do you feel about the standard press release ? Since we’re talking about the audience of promoters, we’ll be sending it to either of you have, ah, opinion on press releases. Are they outdated there ? Some school of thought that press release is dead. But it’s it’s still being used is using it. You’re still using journalists say they ignore them. Yeah, andi, and honestly goes back to relationship building, you know, like in communications, that our primary key is build relationships with with journalists. So when our press release passes through their deaths, they’d be able to, like sick. Oh, let me take a look at this and then dig deeper into the story for us. Just a little more let’s. Talk about building a relationship with a journalist before you want them. Tio, take some action for you to write about you in to quote you on that day’s breaking news. Yeah. How do we build that relationship when we don’t have a need ? But, you know, we want to be in front of the person. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like i just it’s a good old fashioned relation building, you know, you have called them, reach out them email and called, you know, like you have no agenda, but i mean, this marketplace exactly you often cover way. Have coffee, exactly. What a concept. I mean, like, i’m also part of communications network conference, just another communications based non-profit unconference and a lot of journalists attend that and it’s a great opportunity, this plate, this form and ten is a another great form to meet people like i would add to that you need to be you need to understand that audience and you need to be curious about they have their own set of requirements that they’re trying to meet. They’ve got an editorial calendar there. Boss has told them what topics to focus on. They’re looking for. They need they need to youto help them connect the dots. So maybe don’t start with the ask, understand what they’ve been working on for the last month. What stories ? What topics ? And then being able to which, which, by the way, does not mean ask them what have you been writing me out ? It means doing your research before you do the outreach, so that you know, so that, you know, you’ve shown that, you know, you show that you’ve taken the time to know what their beat is exactly not just asking you what do you write about lately ? Well, it’s in the paper buy-in there dubai it’s on it’s, on the site, in the research, and then and then what are you working on next or what’s ? The story you’ve been dying to write that you haven’t had the chance to there’s always a good answer for that and there’s a great conversation starter, especially like imagine putting yourself in their shoes, you know, like someone just roundly wants to have coffee with you, but you have no idea who they are didn’t even do any sort of research like and, you know, you have very, very busy schedule, and you have multiple crowdster headlines like we just need to remember they’re people tio don’t waste their time any more than you would waste. Teo spend the time with a potential donor. Exactly ask them what you’re worth. You’re not gonna ask them things that you want to know already write, write, write what is it about our work that he loves ? Well. I’ve been giving to you for fifteen years, i think it’s, probably in my e-giving history, you know, don’t waste people’s time exactly, but but it is important to build relationships with exactly these influences. Okay, i would add to that there channels are largely on social media. If you talk to any journalists, they spend all their time on twitter. So if your twitter gene is not great it’s time it’s time. Learn what hashtags there using. Follow those channels, see who they’re following. See what they’re talking about. A great way to do research on also how to start to engage early on, even if it’s just observing. Okay. Okay. Very good. Okay, so i want you. I want to spend more time on that. I want to check my mike. Want to make sure that everything is good here. Okay, a little insecure about the way i sound. I don’t know. I sound you don’t sound good to me, it’s. Not okay to you, though, right ? It’s ? A little soft. Like i can hear myself. Really ? I could hear myself, teo. You don’t hear me. According to richard it’s. Not as clear. Yeah, in-kind okay. And give. Myself a lot more volume. All right, now, my too loud. Ok, it’s. Good. Allright. Thank you. Time for our last break. Hoexter give quote, i compared a bunch of companies in my search for it hoexter donate company and text to give is the best hands down. They have b been beyond helpful. I can’t imagine anyone doing this better exclamation mark end quote that’s lauren bouchard from global commission partners in clermont, florida. Satisfied ? She is with text to give you will be, too for info text npr to four, four, four, nine nine, nine. We’ve got several more minutes, and here they are for map your data to your audiences. Let’s, continue the analysts. Right. Data analyst. Refresh our recollection. David who is this ? So this is the data expert this’s. The staffer that’s or consultant ? That would help be a read data. Okay, and analyze it for you, like they be in a foundation. Now. I like the way i sound better. Okay ? Like they’d be a foundation program, officer. It could be. Is that an example or no, i’m not necessarily. I mean, it could be a learning officer for the foundation meeting the one. Who’s like analyzing all the learning and data sets. Ok, he could be a data manager, you know, within an organization. Where would you ? Where would you put a program, officer out of foundation ? Someone who’s evaluating your grant proposal. Where ? Where would they fit in these audience ? Most like, i mean, it’s a little bit of both between the consumer and the actor, to be honest with you, because they’re both a decision maker. So they’re going to read the data and they’re also going to get this just like, okay, this is how my program is going and here’s how i’m going to act upon it. And here’s how i’m gonna adjust my strategy with it. Okay ? Yeah. All right. So, let’s, go back to the analyst. How do we, uh, david ? You keep going. What do we do with this ? How do we talk to the analyst with our data ? Go. No. Gosh, just give it all to them. Honestly, rod, they love him. They loved it. They love spreadsheets there. Said if they see a string of numbers, imagine like matrix type of thing. They’re like oh, my gosh, this is habit. Okay, okay. Yeah. It’s that simple ? Well, they have, i would add that they usually have the domain a knowledge. Do you think of a policy maker ? They haven’t education expert on staff or they may have an expert in international relations it’s that person who knows the domain quite well and feels comfortable digging through the data and furthermore to add to that, too is like if he providing which your goals and what your strategy is for and what they’re trying to provide the otherwise they’d be able to help you got guide you through the breeding process say more about that ? Yeah, what shit a little bit, so think of him like, you know, like, if i’m like, if i am se the heather communications in the foundation and i’m like, i’m gonna talk to a data analyst we’re trying to accomplish x can you help me read through this day that what types of data sets can leave first collect and what’s up days says comey can provide so they’ll be able to accomplish that goal, then they were able to narrow down because otherwise they could they could. You stand in any sort of ways, but if you provide some sort of direction or gold. They’re able to, like filter things a little bit better for you. Okay, yeah, very good. Really good. And our last left audiences the researcher buy-in courtney yeah, the researchers are get out of my way and give me this red sheet they the like they may scan through your infographic, your visualization, your query tool. But really, they’re going to build their own query tool. They’re goingto grab that they’re the ones who are in sequel making pivot table like they’re doing all of it. Okay, we have jargon jail on twenty sequel i think people will know, but i’m going to pivot table. Alright, excel itself. Okay, sorry, i’m taking a data analytics class so i’m learning this stuff, so i’m excited to be able to talk about it just dropping, dropping top, but, yeah, i imagine you’ve got an excel table that is so large that you can’t open it x l can’t open it. That is what these researchers are are working in and they’re very comfortable working in and they’re the ones who may even be collecting data as well as analyze sing it for themselves, so think of it like a like a layer deeper than unless they got analysts who may rely also some visualizations. And of course, like a deep amount of pressure. But these guys are like they’re just like neck or forehead, deep of like numbers and data, and they want to do everything themselves. Yeah, yeah. So one one important thing here we have worked on a number of data projects and for non-profits or foundations any group who wants to attract many of these audiences, the keeping with researchers is you have, like, the get data page or sometimes we’ll put it in the footer and it’s, like, just download the excel spreadsheet because i keep saying it, but you got to get out of their way. Just give them what they want, okay ? Okay. We have, like, another minute and a half or so do you have tools ? And, uh, in your description, you mentioned choosing the right data tools. Any tools we can introduce briefly that you like, i mean, to be honest and this is like, tio, you get off being out of keeping it will be really hash tag riel here, please place if you’re old website have google and alex installed. I mean, you’d be surprised how many webs are out there and smashing non-profits believe that twenty nine, twenty nine percent of them are using do or not. Okay, okay did not have google and licks and police bare minimum do that and they said, like have i think the fun ? Nothing is like have goals, you know, before it was like before you venture into the day the world ? Yeah, there is there’s a great study that every action did called the state of non-profit data. And you can it’s from twenty sixteen. But it’s a great read a page i recommended. Okay, we’re gonna leave it with we’ll leave it there without recommendation. All right, all right. They’re courtney clarke, managing director of user experience at forum one. And david mask arena digital communications manager at the conrad hilton foundation. Courtney and david. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Pleasure. This interview along with all of our eighteen ntcdinosaur views sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you for being with non-profit radios coverage of eighteen ntc next week the buy-in bitches getting buy-in from your leadership. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuing toe online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p well, you see, piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Bradunas cps dot com by tello’s, credit card payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Durney dahna slash tony, tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine a. Creative producers. Claire meyerhoff, sam leave lorts is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music is by scott stein. You need me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Dahna good. You’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut ? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down ? Hi, i’m nor in sumpter, potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio, leo dot n y c geever. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates ? 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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’ve endured the pane of glass a tricky if i had to speak with harry words you missed today’s show you’re online giving plan change is a constant in the online space what does that mean for your fund-raising plan? This year fund-raising consultant joe garrick shares his wisdom on tony’s take two lose track of time. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna i’m a slash pursuant radio and by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream tony dahna may slash tony tell us i’m very glad to welcome joe garrick to the show. He is president of garrick fund-raising associates. He has nearly twenty years of experience helping non-profits build donorsearch sta mes to increase their fund-raising he was founder of the fund-raising authority, providing online fund-raising training before consulting, he was an executive director and the development director. You’ll find him at garrick tw dot com and he’s at joe garrick and he’s on non-profit radio welcome, joe garrett. Thanks, tony. I’m really, really glad to be here with you today. Thanks for having me. I’m glad you’re doubly glad. That’s cool. Thank you. Thank you. Um, okay, let’s, talk about online. We got a good amount of time together. This space, as i said in the intro, is always changing. But how do we, uh, how do we adapt? Yeah, it’s a great question and it’s one that, you know particularly bedevils small and mid sized non-profits because there’s a ton of information coming at fundraisers about online fund-raising it comes from what they see, large organizations doing it comes from what vendors are trying to sell them, and a lot of times it comes internally. I can’t tell you how many non-profits i’ve worked with where the fundraisers say to me, hey, i was talking to a boardmember and they said, we’ve got to be on blank and blank is usually a social media platform or ah, blogging platform or a crowdfunding platform. Okay, and so they’re kind of getting it from all sides. And so one of the one of the biggest things like right up front here that i want to say to non-profits is, um, kind of relax about online fund-raising it’s important, but just like every other kind of fund-raising it’s important to develop a plan and a strategy for your online fund-raising and to implement it and give it time toe work, you know, a lot of non-profits i’ve found feel like they’ve got to keep up, you know, every new thing that comes out, they’ve got to keep up with, you know, they’ve got ad, they gotta take bitcoin donations, they’ve got it beyond another social media platform, and the truth is just like every other kind of fund-raising this is fund-raising it’s a process, you need to develop a plan, and you need to stick with it. And then after you give it some time to run, you contest and iterated, you need teo, but it’s, it’s, knowable and it’s doable for every non-profit stick with it long enough to toe do, in fact test and and see if there’s if there’s traction among your constituents, i mean, you’re not going to know that in just like, four to six months that’s, right? That’s, right? I always say you know, develop a plan and give it, you know, at the very least a year so that you have enough data, enough contacts with your donors, with your prospects, with the network as a whole, to really see where it’s going for your non-profit again, it’s, just like, you know, just because we say it’s online fund-raising doesn’t mean it not still fund-raising, you know, non-profits wouldn’t, you know, launch a they wouldn’t launch a capital campaign and give it a month, and if they don’t have, you know, a certain percentage of gifts dropped the campaign right away, they’d carefully consider whether or not they were ready to run a crowd i mean, a capital campaign, they develop a plan for it, and then they’d implement that plan and on lee after they’ve implemented, would they be able to really just make decisions about changing that plan and it’s the same with online fund-raising need to really think it through before you dive into a new strategy or a new tactic, and then you’ve got to give it time. And and also you really need to make sure that your online fund-raising strategy works with your overall fund-raising strategy so many non-profits have limited bandwidth in terms of time and money. I mean, rare right is the non-profit that has too much band with all it never happens. So you have to make sure that you’re making wise decisions because everything that you’re doing online, it’s time that you take away from offline and everything you’re doing offline is time that you’re taking away from online. So you have to kind of see where those where those tactics strategies fit together in your overall fund-raising plan. Yeah, and we’re going to talk a little about the offline, too, because they do need to align. What do you do with that? Boardmember or ceo that says, we need to be somewhere can can the existence of a plan help you and be sort of a defense and say, look, we’ve got a plan, we’re executing, you know? What can we say to that person who was above us that says, we gotta be on this new this new ah shiny platform? Sure, yeah, i think your biggest the biggest tool you have is a fundraiser foran executive director when those ideas come at you is a plan. Now, if you’re developing the plan because you’re getting those ideas, then you may have a problem because now that’s all for today? Yeah, why isn’t idea and that playing but if you if you take the time to develop a plan ahead of time about how your non-profit is going to pursue engagement online, and if that plan has phases and deadlines and metric and, you know, testing and looking at maternal investment and it really just is a good plan and it makes sense, then you’re able to, you know, take that to your boardmember why usually like to say to boardmember xero first of all, that’s a really interesting idea. Thank you so much for being think, you know, for thinking about this for our non-profits top of mind that you’re generating these ideas, i want to let you know i’m definitely going, we’re definitely going to consider it right now, we’re in the middle of our online and he’s been playing online fund-raising plan for the year and were, you know, at band with capacity, and we’re going to implement this, and at the end of the year, we’re goingto look at how we did and if there’s you know, if there are some things that are underperforming, and we think that this strategy will, you know, outperform those we’d love to take a look at it. So, you know, stay tuned, i promise i’ll report back to you at the end of the year, and then you know it, you know, an animal, so i hope that non-profit that you’re working at, you know, whoever, whoever you are, dear listener, that you are not in this situation, but if you’re in a situation where boardmember they’re saying no, no, no, you definitely need to do this this year, right now, then my suggestion always is saying to them, that’s, fine, we can do that, but what should we cut? You know, that’s the big question, what should we cut? We’re running at capacity in terms of band with so let’s, take a look at the fund-raising plan and you tell me what to cut out of that fund-raising plan to be able to fit this and normally that gets boardmember thinking more about the fact that while fund-raising capacity is not a zero sum game and it’s a world of abundance, you were fund-raising resource is and staff resources are your something certainly xero some game? Yeah, that’s i like that. Like that method of handling certainly give the affirmation that your your idea is meritorious, but where? You know, you said we’re in the middle of executing a current plan. Hopefully you don’t have that kind of micromanagement if we had many guests on, you know, saying that your board members or others senior volunteers, if you like, should not be micromanaging your you know, the day to day tactics that you’re that you’re executing, i’ll tell you what you were going, we’re going to take our first break, so hang with me, please. Great. Pursuing the field guide for data driven fund-raising it’s, the latest resource on their listener landing page now at tony dahna slash pursuing to radio there’s so much data available to all of us. It’s overload. So what you gonna do with it? The field guide is comes in to make your data less daunting. What’s in it. They’ve got five high level steps that you can take quickly to translate your business objectives into actionable data. That’s, that’s manageable real world case studies showing you how some other non-profits are using data, in other words, do some benchmarking and learning worksheet with some conversation and thought starters to help you your team. Maybe even some of those key volunteers board members find the right focus to begin a data driven culture. It’s the field guide for data driven fund-raising tony dahna slash pursuant radio let’s go back to joe and your online giving plan, and my voice just cracked, too. How are you still there? And i know you are, joe, all right? Yeah, well, i was just mentioning the micromanagement. Anything you want, you want to be among the countless guests who have said that you should not be allowing your board members to micromanage tactic like that. Yeah, well, obviously, i concur. And i would i would say again that a planning process and developing a plan is your best defense against that. And i were talking about online giving today, but just, you know, i’ve found that developing an overall development plan fund-raising plan for your organization and if you’re a smaller midsize organization actually, going through the step of having your board approved that plant vote to approve it, hopefully lead by the board chair is sometimes a way that you really can, you know, provided defense against that because then you can go back and say what we were all on board with this plan is we’re going to execute the plan as as we, you know, as we all agreed, as we got the buy-in yeah, we get that board. Buy-in okay, right? So as we’re looking at our our our plan, how do we figure out what’s the best mix for our organisation? Of course, there’s no, no universal formula, how we figure out what, what fits us best. What mix? Sure, and you’re right, there’s no universal formula for online fund-raising but the closest we can get to a universal principle for online fund-raising right now is that email is the most effective method for online fund-raising now, that’s not to discount the impact of social media were crowdfunding or, you know, or your website, they’re all important, but email is the only knowable and really active medium that your organization controls. You know, we’re in a situation where when you’re posting on social media, first of all, you don’t own the social media profile the social media site does and that’s been proven by the fact that, you know, when you, when facebook first started out, if you were a non-profit on facebook or a company on facebook and you were, you know, you had followers, the vast majority, then we’re going to see the posts that you put up right now, you know, that used to be remember that remember that time? Yeah, and that mystery companies and non-profits fuel hoodwink you probably remember facebook was getting people to buy advertising to get likes on their page, as opposed lynx clicks to their links with the idea that if you got people to like your page, they would then see all the other content you put up essentially for free, you know, once you’ve got that buy-in and now now, you know, before the latest algorithm change, they you know, facebook was only showing you were posted less than ten percent of the people who liked your page unless you’re paying for advertising and that’s going down again because of the latest algorithm change. So so clearly you don’t control you can’t control the volume and pacing of your messages to donors on social media. That’s true of every social media site, unless you’re paying for it, your website’s, kind of similar, like i love when donors come to our organization’s website that i’m working with, and click that donate now button, but most donors aren’t going to do that, and if they don’t do that, then unless some using, you know, expensive retargeting advertising tools of paying for a car for advertising on other sites? I’m i don’t know who’s coming to our website, i don’t know who’s stopping by if they don’t taken action. Yeah, andi so that’s kind of passive as well. Email right is the only active mediums that a non-profit controls. If you have someone give you permission to use their email address for your email newsletter or for other communications, they’re going to see your messages. Almost everybody in the united states certainly checks their email address their primary email address almost every day. Oh, it’s, hundreds of the stats are like we checked, like like one hundred twenty five times a day or something, you know, right it’s just beyond me. Yeah, and particularly because a mobile right everyone’s looking on their email on there, you know, and so and and how do they check it, they skim basically, if he doesn’t land in the junk folder, they’re going to see your name and the subject line, which gives you a fighting chance of having your email open and so sabat i always advised, but i’m building a new online fund-raising system for a non-profit my advice to them is funnel everybody as many people as you can do everything you can to collect that email address, because then you are in control, you’re in the driver’s seat. So, you know, your original question was, what is the mix? The right mix for? Non-profits and i would say that for most, almost every non-profit the right mix is ah, hub and spoke system where your website is the hub, but the purpose of that hub is to collect email addresses from all the spokes, which is all of the places that you will have a presence online, whether it’s paid or earned or social. Okay, you said, you know, once you have that email address, you’re in the driver’s seat, but that’s with the with the qualification that you’re you’re adhering to the permission that the person gave you in terms of what? Subjects they want to hear from you about if you’re sophisticated enough to be asking when and how often but you want to keep to those to the parameters that the that the potential donor has given you absolutely, absolutely and so for, you know, for more sophisticated non-profit not only is it, you know, you know, the ethical thing to do to try and segment somewhat and determined the volume and the messaging, but also is really effective. Fund-raising right, if i, if i can determine by asking donors and tying their responses to the email address what they want to hear about how they want to hear from me, how often they want to hear from me that’s going to make our fund-raising program more effective, but for every non-profit you know the goal of collecting the email address, you know, what i kind of said was you want to collect email address, but you really want to collect permission to use it, right? You can go find email addresses, you come by list, you can do all this other stuff that’s, unethical, you know, in some cases, particularly for-profit businesses, it may be illegal or, you know but but what you really want to do is focus on getting permission and easiest way for smaller non-profits to get that permission is by signing people up for an email newsletter by signing people up to get your your non-profits email newsletter and other updates is usually the way we on brother and other communications is usually the way we try and freeze it and that’s broad and if that’s a starting place, if you’re more sophisticated than you contrive segment further, right, right? Based on topic and as i said, maybe even frequency they’ve even time of year. I’ve seen questions. Yeah, on that can come later to when you khun survey later on, once you’ve i mean, if you’ve got there, if you’ve got their permission, and if you have the wherewithal to to execute on the segmentation, you might survey your donors, you’re not even just your donors, but survey your your the people that are accepting your communications and ask what their preferences are. Absolutely, andi, assuming you have the capability to adhere to them, you know you alluded a couple times, teo spending let’s talk a little about that how do we decide whether we should be spending on, uh, what i’m thinking primarily facebook, twitter? Sure, sure. Well, i mean, obviously there’s a there’s, a lot of benefits, two advertising on those platforms facebook in particular has a ton of targeting tools where you can really i mean, it’s a segue mentors dream right? You, khun really dahna drill down and really heavily segment you were you’re you’re advertising audience, you can say you wantto segment people who are thirty five to forty years old who live in indiana and who follow a certain, you know, a certain would have liked a certain page that’s really, really powerful the key, as you know and as any you know for-profit market or nose, the key is figuring out the return on investment and really trying to get your per click advertising spent down as low as possible, first of all, and i’m not, i wouldn’t say there’s a universal agreement with this, but my strong recommendation and on properties there’s really only one crew action you want to be paying for on facebook, and that action is getting people to click over to your website, right? I i don’t i don’t think it makes sense anymore to pay for like, i don’t think it makes sense to pay for other actions. I want to get people to click on links to my website to come over to my website where they can do what, where they can sign up for my email news longfield email drive him to that home. Yeah, but i own that connection. So your goal if you’re if you’re deciding to spend money on social media, is to get the cost per email acquisition is really what you’re trying to do as low as possible, and you know they’re through testing you really can get that down. You can certainly get the cost per click to your website down into the ten fifteen, twenty cents per click range, maybe lower, depending on what you’re targeting and then figuring out how many of those people sign up for your email newsletter. So i think that’s the, you know, the really the only consideration with online from a fund-raising perspective is really, you know, with all nine hundred advertising his return on investment now bigger organizations can afford things like i talked, you know, i mentioned earlier, which was like a retargeting. On bacon, you know, that’s, those ads that follow you across the web, you know, you could you look up, you know, non-profit radio and then you’re on another website and all of a sudden there’s a non-profit radio ads on that website and it’s, because you’re being targeted, you’re being followed buy a cookie that’s, you know that that impact your return on investment, but it’s really something that’s reserved two muchmore advanced organizations who have more money to spend on the testing because with all nine fund-raising really the fortunes in the follow-up it’s your spending money? If you’re paying for online engagement, you’re spending a certain amount now with the goal of making money on the back and and the way you’re going to make money on the back end is not by getting people to constantly, you know, come to your web site and clicked one ofthe donate now buttons it’s by using email to stay in touch with them, to solicit them and to try and build a path for them to become a regular giver to your organization. I admire that you kept yourself out of jargon jail by defining retargeting thank you, i was i was i was chomping at the bit to get you, but it was short lived because you immediately explain what we targeting is those those those ads that yes, you did you’re you’re free of drug in jail. Those ads that i consider annoying, i guess there are people who like them or if even if they don’t like them, they’re obviously successful because their companies making aa lot of money filtering adds segment in ads. Teo individual people i know, i know it’s a lucrative business i find i find that stuff annoying, um, creepy, but can be lucrative. Yeah, it is on dh it’s both i think i think it’s both on and then the other one that i didn’t mention our one hundred facebook. Of course, there is the possibility of google adwords and we’ve we’ve covered this on the show a couple times you could search that phrase tony martignetti dot com and we’ve had detailed conversations about how to take advantage of the ten thousand dollars per month that’s hard to spend that much money but it’s up to that maximum that google provides in an ad free adwords if you want to. And you could do much, much smaller campaigns. You don’t have to spend ten thousand dollars, but we’ve had guests talking about that and that’s another that’s, another possibility in the spending category, but it’s free because it’s tze a grant from google um okay, let’s. Um let’s bring in some some coordination between online and offline, as we’re thinking about what belongs in our plan three offline i’m thinking of is face-to-face meetings and u s mail. How do we how do we coordinate thes this with our with our online? Right? Well, good, great question and it’s two great questions you’re living me with thank you if you don’t have to keep it out, that is not necessary, you know you’re you’re a guest, i’m not going to cut your mic off so it’s not necessary to keep saying i got you the the you know again, i don’t want to make a i don’t want to make a sweeping generalizations because every non-profit is different, but if in general right the the most there is a hierarchy of fund-raising ass strategy’s where and it and it tends towards the more personal right so a in person ask. Is more effective than a phone ask a phone ask is more effective then a ah direct mail snail mail asked a snail mail ask is more effective than an email asking email ask is more effective than like social media ask now that you know, some donors don’t want to get a phone call or don’t want to get in person, you know, meeting and they want to be selected by the mail and that’s great, and we need respect what our donors you know what our donor preferences are, but in general that’s the hierarchy and if that’s the hierarchy, we need to respect that and realize that, as with all things there’s, ah, there’s a curve in terms of our time, and we should be spending more time on the more effective strategies. Now. The good news is that one of the reasons direct mail’s effective because it doesn’t take much time to talk to lots of donors. Your your average gifts size is going to be lower, but it’s relatively easy emails, even easier right it’s emails and even easier method your average gifts eyes is likely going to be lower than your direct male average. Gifts, eyes and so, you know, the things that go into your decision on your strategy for the year are go where the money is, what, you know, what kind of time do we have to invest in those things? And where our donors i mean that’s, really? Another question is, you know where, where our donors, if you’re a small organization that happens to have lots of donors scattered throughout the country for the world, then in person meetings aren’t going to be, as, you know, big a possibility for you, and you may have to rely on you no more on the mail in the morning. I don’t know. Not only where are they physically, but where are they? Virtually what platforms are they on? As we talked about, you know what preferences do they have for communications? And where do you find the bulk of them? You know, you may have more fun on facebook, but you’ve got you’ve got a lot more activity and engagement, riel engagement on twitter so you need to be spending more time there. I and the other just one other thing i wanted to put a little spin a little little point to is, of course, another factor with direct mail is the cost postage printing, the collating however you do when you do it in house, you pay somebody to do it, you know, there’s there’s a much bigger cost to direct mail. I’m not denying that it’s it’s ah it’s up there, you know, it’s it’s right below face-to-face ass, i’m not. I’m not quick challenging that, but just the cost factor of that the u s mail. Oh, yeah, and that’s, why return on investment is the biggest consideration when you want to direct mail testing intestine, right? If you don’t have the capacity to test and then the money to invest in testing, you shouldn’t particularly direct mail. You should not be doing prospecting mailing because you know it doesn’t. It doesn’t make any sense. I think you know, in developing your overall, you know, strategy email, you know, for most organizations, the email newsletter is the backbone of the donor cultivation and stewardship sabelo more about that. You alluded to that before, when you were talking about the hub, trying to get people to your site. You want that email address newsletter is the is the center of your communications plan. It sounds like for you, right? Yeah, that that that is true. You know, email emails are super popular for a couple of reasons. One is because they work. I mean, they’re away for for non-profits that would never get a monthly snail mail newsletter out the door or have any other way to connect with their donors monthly or even quarterly in a method that’s just cultivation and stewardship. That’s not on aska truitt for them to stay in touch with their donors on a regular basis, it gets to the donor the donors who are interested, we’d those newsletters, those who don’t can just delete them. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s effective, but but it’s also the backbone of most donorsearch altercation zsystems because of those other things we mentioned it’s cheap it’s, easy, it’s, easy to do. You know, it’s. Not like the old days where it was real hard to create a good looking email newsletter. You got services that constant contact in a weber and male chimp and you know you’re donordigital based all of them send out beautiful, you know, emails at a really, really cheap costs far less. Obviously, than the cost of direct mail, so for most non-profits it makes sense that that the backbone of your entire donorsearch altum ation system not just your online donor cultivation system, but your entire donorsearch conservation zsystems his email communication, it’s, it’s email newsletters again, you’re still gonna want with your certain segments of donors have much more personal contact that they didn’t want to invite them to cultivation event you’re going to want to talk to them in person, you’re going to want to go out and see them. You’re gonna want to send a personalized notes, but but email the email newsletter the email cultivation is something that ties almost all of your donors together. Okay, um, let’s, let’s, take a break there. Okay? George arika okay, sounds good. Regular sepa is this testimonial quote, this is my first year and we’re growing non-profit regular gps was completely attentive and gave the impression as if they were right next door when handling our review engagement. Even though we’re in a different state, they made me feel like we were the only client they had that’s like that. And like the whole thing, they were able to walk. Me, through starting up our accounts to finishing our yearly statements, nothing was too small of a task for them to handle their always available for questions and concerns customer service was exceptional and was greatly appreciated. I received great advice and guidance for better business practices. This is talking about the cps for god’s sake. Listen to this gushing thing, it’s it’s incredible! That was my part that i didn’t write that all from a professional while feeling supported and genuinely cared for in the process. Wagner stupas really stands out as a partner, and i could not be happier with the results and quote that’s from the small cancer research non-profit on the east coast, supported and genuinely cared for are they limo drivers, wedding photographers, makeup artists, caterers, florists alright, you hear the wedding theme? Are they pre op nurses, interventional cardiac surgeons, home health workers, chaplin’s, social workers, none of the above their just wagner, cps but they’re more they’re more than cpas, trusted advisors to their clients. You’re supposed to change our two firms every three years to get that fresh perspective, you want the advice of a firm that goes broad and helps you. Beyond just the numbers. That’s them right beyond the numbers. You hear me say it, talk to them. You know you can talk to at wagner. You coached him? He’s been on the show. He’s been guessed twice. I’ve had lunches and dinners with heat right here in new york city. You can speak to him, he’s a live person. And ah, well, the people i meet for lunches and dinners for the most part. So, you know, get to know them. See if wagner cps can help you beyond the numbers. Okay, i’m gushing, but ah, i like them. I like eat. I like i like wagner, wagner, cpas, dot com now time for tony’s take two. I was on a cruise last month, totally disconnected. Totally offgrid or just, you know, don’t you want to modify it? Just offgrid i was offgrid and it felt luxurious. I lost track of time. There were there were blocks of ours, ours strolling by with my ties on drum punches. And i did not know what time it was the only reason i had to ask people. And i’d asked me because i kept my phone in my room the whole time. Ah, it zoho i wouldn’t show up for late, late for lunch and dinner breakfast. I was on track, but that, you know so my advice can you get a vacation where you’re not only napping? You’ve heard me talk about the beneficial impact of naps, but when you actually when you lose track of time one of those, what time is it? Vacations or a piece of vacation where you just you’re unconnected and you don’t even know what time it is. Okay, that’s, my video is from st thomas and it’s at tony martignetti dot com. Now, let’s, go back to joe garrett and you’re online e-giving plan. Thank you, joe garrett, um, i need to be here before you were really, really glad now, you just now now, it’s, not so much anymore. Just clouds the middle of the show. We’ll get her energy back-up oh, jeez, you’re in a slump. Cutting mike off. I’ll tap dance myself. I got i got playing giving god again gush with plan giving for all right. You’re not in a slump. I know you’re not, um by way you got a nice radio voice like you got a basic kind of voice. Thank you. Yeah. Um, how about should we that’s? Just something that i’ve talked to guess about? And i’ve heard different philosophies. What about converting online donors too? Latto offline donors, first of all, should we mean with all the things that you and you’ve just said should we be? And then if you think we should, i’m not. I’m not suggesting that’s what? One answer or another. But if you do think we should how do we do that? Let’s, start with that threshold question. Should we even be thinking about doing that, right? Yeah, i do think that you should try and convert all flight vote. Well, let me let me go online online to all i would like to offer you. Yeah. You you should be trying to move those online donors who won tohave offline contact with your non-profit to offline status. Now, there’s. A reason for that is because you have muchmore there’s much more ability to cultivate and steward those donors in a more personal fashion. If they’re offline, donors, very rarely will will a one hundred percent online donor moved from small gift to major gift to plan gift all online without ever talking to people face to face her on the phone or at an event with your non-profit and so i find that it’s, beneficial for the move donors over took to be offline donors, but again, ok, only if they want to move over because not everything. There are plenty of donors today who like a little bit of anonymity, who like a little bit who liked who liked to make those donations online, who like to read your email newsletter, look atyou on social media, but not have that personal that more personal touch, so my suggestion would be yes, now the trick really is to moving your online donors offline. Is tio seat as a system? You know you need to build a lot of non-profits crying kind of haphazardly one off, like they’ll do the price. A certain tactic to move those donors offline, maybe it’s doing some well screening and doing some calls or sending out some snail mail letters and and then it will work or it won’t work. And then, though, so it’ll be discontented and they’ll move on to something else. If you want to move your offline, don’t order. Online donors offline you need to put a strategy behind it, and you need to treat it like you do kind of direct mail prospecting or other other real measurable types of fund-raising you need to measure what you’re doing and see if it’s working and if it’s not working, then you know, try something else, but you need to you need to put a system behind what what suggestions have you got for for it, including our system? Sure. Well, there’s really? Two the two primary ways that non-profits trying move online donors offline our events and mail. So, you know there’s there’s non-profits that have success, particularly if most of their donors are local, you know, in a certain region or certain metropolitan area with having donorsearch collectibe ation events were donorsearch dank u events or larger types of types of events, or a regular system of cultivation tours of the facility, things like that, and they invite their online donors. Teo, come and connect through those types of events. Obviously the vast majority of the donors are not going to do that, but the ones who do are weeding themselves out for you there segmenting themselves for you they’re kind of raising their hand and saying, i’m super committed because i’m willing to come teo to a tour of the facility, even if it’s building is a donor thank you. Event that’s an actual investment time and energy on the other the other way that non-profits try and move online donors offline is male. You know, they try and do a do a mailing fund-raising mailing that converts some of those donors to essentially male donors, and then they try and move the donors up with line that way through a traditional capacity screening and, you know, male donor engagement strategy to move, though toe move up, move the donor’s through the funnel who have the capacity to give mohr. I’ve seen non-profit set up six have had success with both strategies. Teo do the event strategy. Obviously, most of your donors have to be local. My suggestion is to test both of them to test both of those strategies, and certainly, if you have wealth screening tools there you can. You can bring those into play and the other, frankly, the other riel indicator of an online donor. Is the number of the amount of engagement they have with your non-profit how many times do they donate online? How many times today, you know, respond open your e mails, how many times today engage with you on social media? Those are the type of metrics that show that there really engaged with your non-profit online and maybe ripe for moving off line or even moving to another level of online giving, like monthly giving entering that recurring credit card doing occurring right, an example of that, it could be an example of a hybrid between online offline depending how you structure your campaign is giving tuesday you are do i have it right? Are you e-giving tuesday denier? I am ok, i want to give. Okay, i want to give one to give voice to that we’ve had folks on from ninety second street y and in fact, this year i’m going to try to have ah to like one in may and one later, closer to the event, but i want to give voice to the to the denier, deny your camp what’s your opinion of giving tuesday. Sure. Well, i’m a big fan of giving days. For non-profits i’ve i’ve seen a lot of success with e-giving days that air run specifically for a non-profit for a particular non-profit i’m a big fan of crowdfunding in peer-to-peer campaigns online, what i’m not a fan of is particularly and and the non-profits i work with are particularly small and on the small size of side of mid sized non-profits i’m not a fan of them using what are very limited resource is for those organizations on giving tuesday because of the sheer volume of communications and fund-raising campaigns that are going on around that day, i would rather them take all the tools that they would normally use to run a successful giving tuesday campaign, which, as we all know as i’m sure, the folks who have had on who have been successful with that, i’ve told you, it’s more than just a day, right? A lot of prep work that goes into a successful giving tuesday for sure, and i’d rather than take that and move it over to e-giving day, just for their non-profit where there, what? They don’t have to compete with all of the many messages that their donors are getting, i don’t know if you’re like me, you probably are because you’re in the industry, i, you know, on giving tuesday and the days before leading up to it, i get i mean, dozens of e mails from non-profits about giving tuesday social media is packed with messages about giving tuesday and, you know, there’s two sides to argument, of course, that that buzz is going to boost it is going to raise all the ships that, well, that’s a mixed metaphor. Yeah, but you get, you know, you know what i mean? Yeah, right. That’s the argument and for me, for the organization’s i’ve worked with who have done giving tuesday, i’ve found that the amount of time number your number of staff hours that go into rising above the noise, or getting to a certain level with your donors, with awareness for your non-profit for a small non-profit that that number of hours would be better put into other fund-raising methods and moving the e-giving the e-giving daito, another day away from giving tuesday so that’s kind of my take on it. Okay, good on jeez, that was that was that was quite a mixed metaphor, but buzz raising ships. But what did you come up with this nonsense? If i had an intern that we we do? I mean, it’s not like anybody writing this it’s just all for mei apologize. Um, okay, you mentioned crowdfunding menu. We were sort of following the same sequence you like you like crowd? Well, wait, before we get to the generic crowdfunding. So what would you like to see people do on? Give me some client examples, perhaps if you like, of their own individual giving day? Sure way. You know, we have organizations that i’ve worked with where, instead of, you know, instead of doing on giving tuesday, we need we pick a day that makes sense with the organizations with their editorial counter with their market encounter with their fund-raising calendar where we name that day for that organization. You know, we call, you know, maybe it’s april third is, you know, killing off your children’s alliance day or that’s very presumption we stop that’s that’s very presumptuous of your client’s, isn’t it? You got it. You got to get out there and shake it up. You don’t have you don’t have a mayoral proclamation or anything like that, you’re just doing it on your own. It’s a great idea. We haven’t done that yet. But that’s a great idea. Yeah. Get the mouth that the mayor of philadelphia behind you. Yeah, yeah. So we we name that as our day, and we build a campaign message behind that day. And we just as with e-giving tuesday or with a with an online crowdfunding campaign, we set a goal for that day with a riel hans will outcome for that goal. You know, we say something like we want to raise twenty five thousand dollars on speak up day because we want to do x y and z we want to provide this number of scholarships or we want toe, you know, provide this number of warm meals, you know, hot meals to the homeless, and then we do all the normal things to build up to that day we put i like to put a committee behind it of people who, just as i will with a crowdfunding campaign. People who are commit to not only give that day right in the morning to show some to show some traction, but also who commit throughout the day send out an e mail to their network to be active on social media to really try and help us push it. Then we do a sequence of emails to our tow, our newsletter listeningto our donor base to prepare them for this day so that by the time the day comes around and we hit, send on the on the email that isa announcing that the day is now open, people are expecting it. People know that it’s coming, they’ve at least heard of it. And then, well, then we’re very active throughout the day. It’s, a one day crowdfunding campaign just like e-giving just like you’re giving tuesday. Sure effort is essentially a one day crowdfunding campaign except here, hopefully and that, you know, it’s not always caves, but hopefully really the only massive fund-raising messages that your donors are getting in the email and their email on social media and things that day are primarily from your non-profit yeah, it’s, your it’s your day. All right, i got it. It’s presumptions, but bold. You’ve gotta be bold, but you gotta you gotta be out there. Okay. Um, what about what about the blog’s we’re talking about online? Ah, let’s. See? You know what? I’m going to let you ruminate on that topic for a minute while i take our last break. Okay, okay. Tell us. Credit card, payment processing. Check out the video it’s at tony dot m a slash tony tell us goes through the process of businesses switching to tell us and remember how you are going to get fifty percent of telesis revenue. That’s passive revenue for you each month. You thought i was just i had lunch friendly. We’re talking about passive revenue, you know, into into retirement way. Get passive revenue some he he rents hubei’s properties and rinse them. I pay rent so i don’t have passed a revenue. But no, i don’t pay rent. Um, but you pass a revenue it’s a it’s. A good thing. You know what it means, right? It means you’re not working for every dollar. It’s just coming that’s it just comes and it comes routinely. That’s what happens a cz long is the businesses with tell us for credit card processing you’re going to get fifty percent of what tell us earns from that business times the number of businesses that you think of in your community ah, there’s a hundred percent satisfaction rate among among their non-profits and the businesses that are referred to them. Remember, if teller’s can’t save them any money, then you are going to get two hundred fifty dollars. But that’s, the that’s, the short term and that’s a short play. You don’t really want that, it’s. Not likely because tell us is probably is going to save the money. Otherwise, you’ll be writing a lot of twenty fifty dollars checks. Right? So you don’t want the short money. You want the passive revenue indefinite that long tail. Tony dot m a slash tony tello’s. Check out the video now, let’s, go back to joe garrick and wrap up with your online giving plan. Okay, so what homework did i give you? What did i just ask you to ruminate about? Do you remember what let’s talk about block? There we go. Yes. Much better than i am. I know, i know. Okay, uh, should we have a block to it? Is it is it essential anymore to have a blogger? Well, so in my mind, having a quote unquote blogged is not essential. It can be. It can be an important part of what you do but it’s not essential to have a separate page our link on your site necessary that says block what is important, whether it’s through your block, which is probably the easiest way to do this or through your sight as a whole. It’s important to have your your sight be updated regularly and to be something that makes donors want to come visit fresh, fresh content, right fresh content. Yet most non-profits have essentially a static brochure up with a donate now button and you know if they’re advanced, maybe they have a video at a newsletter sign up box, but it doesn’t change, and i always come non-profits your website can be in a really, really crucial part of your cultivation and stewardship stress, but it’s only important it’s the hub, right? If the hub is where the heart is weak, then the spokes are going to loose. Exactly exactly people don’t think that your website is that metaphor that was that was a that was a good metaphor. I’m sorry, but that was an example of a good metaphor. If they don’t think it’s informative or entertaining or, you know, compelling, they’re not going to visit it, and then it doesn’t work. So one of the mean, the easiest way to keep fresh content up on your website is a blogger there’s nothing. I hate more hearing more from non-profits then when a fundraiser says something like while we can update our own website, right, we’ve gotta get our web design team where we got that that’s crazy. You mean that there was a time when if you’re one of your website, to look nice, you had to do that, you had a have you had to make it such that you couldn’t update it yourself, but with all the modern back ends like wordpress that are available, there’s no reason that someone at your non-profit can’t go onto that website once a week or every other week or once a month and post something new and there’s a ton of things you can post there’s donorsearch stories and staff stories and clients, stories and things about your mission and things about your outcomes, things about events coming up and, you know, there’s, you know, thought leadership pieces. There is no end to the amount of things you can put up there. And what stops non-profits from doing that is they think that they have to write essentially a white paper or, you know, a master species every time they post something, they’re worried that they have to be fifteen hundred words and footnoted and it three hundred, four hundred, five hundred words up on your website that’s compelling that’s decently written that you mean, frankly, we talked about george, and earlier in the show that three of jargon that’s, you know, not technical that’s written at that sixth or seventh grade level that’s just up there that’s information, you know, informative or entertaining that gives donors a reason to at least check your website occasionally and that’s what you want. You want to give him a reason to keep coming back, so i’m a big proponent of like you said tony, fresh content up on that web site on a regular basis? What if we are hearing joe garrett say, oh, my god, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred words, i don’t i don’t i don’t think i have the time to come up, even with the low end of that three hundred. Well, i’m thinking about hiring, uh, what about what about outsourcing? Some of this what’s your opinion of getting an outsider tio provide that fresh content for you? And maybe maybe that’s not even on ly blogged, but could be facebook, twitter, your corporate page on linkedin, instagram, etcetera? Yeah, and you and you certainly can do that they’re you know, they’re certainly plenty of vendors out there we’re going to do that free it’s still going to require your time because what you don’t want to do is have a vendor who’s putting up kottler who’s, sending your content that that essentially could apply to any non-profit that sometimes what happens, right? We we get content from the outside from an outside vendor, and really, if you change this non-profit name out, it could applied any non-profit or it’s basically just rewording your case for support over and over again, or something like that in orderto and and i don’t want to suggest that that the way all vendors operate, but if you’re going to really get great content from an outside writer there going to be great at writing, they’re going to try and immerse themselves in your non-profits mission and what you do, but no. Matter what you do, they’re still going to need you to tell them about your latest outcomes your new programs you were you were, you know, help you collect your help them collect omer stories, clients, stories, things like that. So i would say, you know, if you’re if you’re thinking about, for instance, starting a block and you’re really, really concerned about the amount of time it’s going to take, i would say start from the real real low and meaning try and make a commitment that once per month just once per month, you’re going to come up with three hundred words right? On three hundred words less, which is less than a, you know, eight and a half by eleven piece of paper of one sheet that you’re going to come up with three hundred words to put up on your on your website and then then see how it goes if that works that maybe you could expand it a little bit if that’s not working. If you find that you don’t have the time in the band with, then investigate, you know, outsourcing it, but i would i would suggest, given it a shot first. And realizing again, it does not have to be we’re not talking about something that has to be perfect, it doesn’t have to be the greatest story in the world. In many cases, it just has to be something that goes up there that at least somewhat compelling to your donors and supporters. Another possibility for content is curating the content of others that’s that’s related to your mission or related to your community, you know? Ah, you know what interests your constituents, you know, you confined content from other people and, you know, call it a round up, i say we found on the found on the web and list the board, you know, bullet with links to, like, two to two or three things and there’s a lot of great content out there from others that you can use to supplement your own right. That’s exactly, i mean, and you’re right, there’s a lot of great content from from other people there’s also a lot of internal resource is that might be willing to provide content. Now, obviously, as a fundraiser, you don’t want to be in a position where you’re loading work onto the program’s staff, but you may have program folks who are excellent at writing about their experiences in the trenches that’s a green, compelling piece of content you may have boardmember who loved to write and who would love nothing more than to write a write an article where to interview a donor or two, you know, given explanation, you know, provide a provide a story about a kn event that you held that they attended. So there are a lot of ways where, you know, you’re looking for essentially, at a minimum twelve pieces of content a year, and if you can farm some of that out, then maybe you as a fundraiser are only writing a piece every other month or every third month because you have other re sources that are helping you create that content and ah, perfect example, tony, is what you said, which is to around up, post or a top ten, you know, top ten tips post, you know, if your if your organization that’s working in, you know, in healthcare non-profit maybe you’ve got a tip post you can post about how people can stay healthy in a certain respect so there’s a lot of different ways to go about it. You have ideas around personalized video for cultivation. Now we just have about two minutes left, joe garrick so you know you, teo constrain yourself, but what advice do you have around personalized video, right? So one of the new ideas one of the more innovative ideas that i’ve that we’ve used and that i love, is using personalized videos to stewart and cultivate, particularly stuart, you were mid level donorsearch if their donors out there who were giving it a level where he would like to offer them more cultivation, but you don’t have the time or and it doesn’t make sense, go out, meet with them. One thing, some non-profits air doing is a development director or a board number will sit in front of the computer and record thirty second videos using the donor’s name, personalizing it to their gift, thanking them for their gift and then emailing it out to them and it’s a way that you could do personalize stewardship. You can do, you know, fifteen or twenty of these videos in an hour and send them all out in the same amount of time it would take to meet. With one donor. Awesome. You did that in just one minute. Okay. Okay. Andi, you have clients doing that successfully? Yes. Yeah, very successfully. And and donors tender. I mean right now, it’s kind of new nobody, not many organizations. They’re doing it. So right now, i would say get double. In fact, in fact, we’ve had clients where significant a not insignificant number of donors actually call. Call the person who sends them the video to say how much they liked. The video, you know, leads to a whole different level of interaction. Not surprised. Awesome. That’s a great tip. Toe end on he’s. Joe garrett, president of garrett fund-raising associates, garrick dot com. And at joe garret joe garrett. Thank you. So, so much. Thanks for sharing. You bet. Thanks, tony. My pleasure. Next week, build your grantmaker relationships. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing unlike tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com tell us. Credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dot, m a slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Shows social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit medio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Treyz what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge. Somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and, uh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five.

Nonprofit Radio for August 28, 2015: Fundraiser Incentive Pay

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Dave Dalessandro & Liz Cooper: Fundraiser Incentive Pay

The University of Pittsburgh has created a career ladder to stem frontline fundraiser turnover—and it includes incentive pay. Explaining Pitt’s innovation and helping you think through whether this makes sense at your organization are Dave Dalessandro, associate vice chancellor for university development, and Liz Cooper, senior executive director for university development.

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I go into hydro poisonous if i got exposed to the hot idea that you missed today’s show fundraiser incentive pay university of pittsburgh has created a career ladder to stem frontline fundraiser turnover, and it includes incentive pay, explaining pits, innovation and helping you think through whether this makes sense at your organization. Our dave dalessandro and liz cooper fund-raising administrators at the university on tony’s take two the ntc videos responsive by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com i’m very glad to welcome dave dalessandro and liz cooper to the show. Dave is associate vice chancellor for university development at the university of pittsburgh and liz cooper is senior executive director for development at the university. David liz, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having us for having a it’s a pleasure, dave, i don’t i’m not sure we’ve ever had a a chancellor or vice chancellor on the show before. This sounds like a very regal term, but you’ve got a crown born there. What? You’re sitting on a throne. What? Mrs chancellor? Well, uh, associate vice chances are a lot like vice presidents in bank. Okay, a lot of you. Okay, but they prefer chancellor. Essentially, i sit over all of the individual fund-raising for the university plan giving prospect, research all the analytics and lose his second in command. Okay, uh, it’s, just interesting that some places, i guess mostly i see it, and i guess it is in universities. Prefer chancellor over president. I don’t know. I don’t know where that. Okay, i don’t know it just right. It sounds, uh, sounds like royalty. All right, um, liz, you and i are ah, you and i are the now the libyans know, um, what is your responsibility, liz? As senior executive director for development? Sure. So i oversee all of the central fund-raising operation. So i hyre orient and supervise all of our fundraisers that are located here. Centrally. I also oversee fund-raising efforts that go on in some of our smaller schools, for example, school of education or the school of social work. And i also work closely with our regional campuses. All right? And of course, ah, i wanted teo, we’ll let you know that i’m a carnegie mellon altum and no, carnegie mellon is just down the street from pit, so we’ll have no ah, we’ll have no trouble with you, please way won’t hold it against, don’t yeah, that’s. Sure it is two against one. So what am i talking about? Yeah, all right, all right, dave, why don’t you get us started? This incentive pay and the career ladder, and why was this important to do it? Back-up i’m gonna have i’m gonna have to start off on that look at this already is an anarchist anarchist already? I okay, this is what is what happens when you deal with this. What happens when you’re dealing with a chancellor? I see. Ok, ok, go ahead, liz. You start off. Um, you know, i think that it seemed like every moment i was checking my email, i was receiving an article or blogged about some big hyre education fund-raising issues, um two of which were the recruitment of major gift officers and the retention of major gift officers. During our campaign. We were fortunate to have a group of very successful and talented individual major gift officers that are loyal to the university. But as you know wherein one campaign ends, you start thinking about another, and we knew we were going to grow. So we wanted to address these issues recruitment and retention of major gift officers at pitt before they became ah common. Seem to us, if that makes sense. In other words, it was a common theme across hyre education. And we didn’t want it to be an issue here. And what do you see? As the downside of just make sure everybody eyes on the same page with this the downside of a frequent turnover of fundraisers, i think continuity is a big themes that you’ll find in development. Uh, continuity is good for donors. It’s good for the employees. It’s good for the organization. Good for the bottom line. Um, when an individual major gift officer leaves the university, uh, that relationship that they developed with that individual major gift donor repaired and start over again. So all right, so yes, we want this continuity, and donors prefer it. Donors prefer it sure they because they begin a relationship not only with pitt, but with that individual major gift officer. Yeah, for sure, dave, if you think i’m going to bring you in this conversation, you’re out of your head so you can hang up or whatever i don’t. It doesn’t matter to me. No, it sounded like there was something you were going to say, dave, you want to add something? Well, i think that one of the things that we learned was that it’s actually less expensive over the long run to retain your existing fundrasing not only have you spent time training them, and we spend a lot of time training our major gift officers, but the process of recruiting the process of, you know, matching salaries from from folks coming from larger cities or larger institutions actual becomes more expensive over time, so it seemed us that one of the things we wanted to do it was to control, uh, for those those problems when we were going from eleven major gift officers to probably thirty two, so you multiply all those problems when you’ve got three times more fundraisers and you’ve got a real problem of scale if people are coming and going, so that was a big hit was a big issue for us that, you know, once we had made this initial investment, we didn’t want to have to recoup it over and over again with new folks. Liz, you said you’re responsible for the hiring and training, so why don’t we? Why don’t we start with this? The career ladder idea and the incentive pay around around fundraiser orientation? What what’s what’s different now that you have this method of evaluation and compensation? Sure, when there’s so many young, talented folks out there that have maybe two or three years in development. These millennials, when they came to me in an interview, would ask me, where will i be a pit in five years? Or where will i be a pit? In seven years? Prior to the career ladder, i would stare back at them, and i would not be able to answer them except with simple response. We hope that you’ll still be here. So, you know, this was a really when when this was established, this was a really interesting way for us to tell that applicants there is a future for you here, and we have thought it through. How long have you been doing incentive pay and the career ladder, which we’re going to talk about? So we worked on the career rod, or for about eighteen months, and it was implemented in janu miree okay, so we’re talking, oh, wow. All right, so just eight months or so, all right, but a lot of little lead time lot of thought went into it, so go back to the orientation question then was how is training of new fundraisers different now? So a part of what we wanted to ensure was that we were orienting exceptional fundraisers and that’s, really, what the career ladder is based on is really those performers that are going above and beyond a successful and being exceptional. Part of that is us training them for the first three months of their employment to get up and running as quickly as possible. So learn how pit fund-raising tto learn how we do it. So we establish what we lovingly refer to as the academy it’s a week long, intensive training, hands on experience taught by our own staff on all the things that we think they need to know as individual fund-raising individual gift fundraiser, for example. But they get a crash course on plan giving. They get a crash course on our endowment, making the ask proposals agreement’s, etcetera. So that we feel that after that week, they really do have a great face in what it takes to be an individual major gift officer here. And what about god? I was just going to add that part of that so is the explanation is the explanation of the career excuse me? Is the explanation of the career ladder? Yes, there is actually a booklet that they get that that sets out uh all the requirements for them to in a period of three years be eligible for promotion. Okay? We’re we’re. We’re gonna we’re gonna go out a little early for a break. When we come back. We’re going to talk about what these elements are to being exceptional, there’s six of them and we’ll talk about how they fit into the career ladder all that stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Liz, let’s, let’s, turn to you. Would you please take off the six elements to prove that you’re an exceptional fundraiser? Sure, what well we have the first is our fund-raising visit number, dollar raised agreement sent. Agreement’s accepted the total contact that they have in our in our database, and the last is origination guest. Okay. Thank you. Um, let’s, let’s. Define some terms. What’s, an origination gift and origination gift is a gift that the development officer excuse me. Let me go back. The origination gift is a gift where the prospect was never placed in what we call active management. In other words, ah, other universities use the term maybe a legacy or one that was kind of handed down from a previous development officer to another origination gifts or those gifts that were the relationship that was established by the gift officer cultivated, solicited and closed. So their new giver to the university at the major gift level. All right, all right. And to be exceptional, you what? You have to achieve a certain level or exceed or so how do you prove that you’re exceptional across these six categories? Yeah, if it’s okay, i’ll let dave kind of handle that. And what we what? We’ve determined to be exceptional. That’s okay, trust him. Go ahead. Yeah. One of one of the things that that the career ladder does is takes a traditional major gift officer position and breaks into six steps. So at each step, step one step two, step three. Step forward. So on there are a set of performance standards. The initial performance standards are considered. This is your level of competency. This is what you’re supposed to be doing. Uh, and then you have the exceptional being in terms of money raised double that amount. And all of these other factors are not all that different at both exceptional in regular. In other words, what we’re really trying to figure out is are you doing to baseline of activity? And how effective are you taking that baseline and raising mohr gifts than the person sitting next to you? So at each level and exceptional person is always raising double the amount of money that another person in the class is raising, or with one so the ones might be exceptional taken average five hundred thousand if they could propose to it to their only exceptional, they raise a million if they get to three, they’re only exceptional. Raise two million. If they get the for their only exceptional, they raise three million. Alright, so in this system it’s entirely possible to be promoted and be exceptional as a cr m one and never leave the c r m to level because you’re not exceptional at that level. All right, so let me just way have jog in jail on tony martignetti non-profit radio c r e m is probably pretty widely known but let’s, just make explicit. I assume that’s, constituent relationship manager, charitable relationship, charitable. See, i did not have a charitable relationship manager. Okay, okay, go ahead. Sorry. And, uh, yeah. That’s that’s. Kind of where we got away from the major gift officer term. Because we felt that terrible relationship manager actually is a title that expresses the job. Yeah, related. They’re managing sheriff oppcoll relationship. Yeah, kind of like that. A charitable relationship manager. Okay, so do you to be exceptional. Do you have to do double the double the goal in all six of these categories? No. No. Okay. How does it work now? How does it work? What’s the formula. The formula is that let’s say you come in as what we call the c r m one. So you’re cr one and we tell him here’s what you need. All right. Need forty five fund-raising visits two hundred thousand new pledges. Six. Agreement sent four agreements accepted. A thousand total contacts. Into origination gets now. If you are exceptional, you’ll have forty five were mohr fund-raising visits. You’ll raise five hundred thousand maurin new pledges and gifts. You’ll have six agreement scent, or mohr for agreements, mohr, a thousand total contracts and three origination gifts. So if you managed to make all those numbers all right over a period of three years, in other words, set your average of doing at over three years. Yes, stand. At the end of the third year you’re eligible for a promotion, it would be promoted to c r, m two two. Okay, okay, what is probably should just defined this earlier, but what is the total contacts? Total contacts are all the things that you put in the database, which indicate an attempt to maintain communication with the donor. So emails, letters, phone calls, okay? That’s, pretty liberal, and then and then one of the categories i think the first one lives mentioned is is actual visits fund-raising visits, right? That that assumes that that’s a face to face meeting, yes, okay, but here’s the difference and, you know, we’ve had people say, boy, that number that numbers, so we have to make two hundred visits. Well, the only way you get credit for a fund-raising visit is that you have an actual discussion about a major gift, and in fact, all of our folks are supposed to call and say i would like to come and talk to you about your philanthropic relationship with the university of pittsburgh. So these aren’t alumni visits. These aren’t people you casually run into at a football game or a basketball game. We still count those, but you don’t get credit. We’ve got you know, we’ve got a staff that actually vets all the contact reports, determine whether you get credit or not for that visit i used to be a planned e-giving director at two colleges before i before i became a plan giving consultant. Yeah, i do. I do play e-giving telling now, but i used to be plain giving director i i’m trying to decide whether i would have loved this or hated it. I think it’s i think i would have loved it because i kind of like the office competition. Although buy-in both these shops, i had started the plan giving program, so there was no other planned e-giving fundraiser. But i mean, you could. I’m sure we could have worked out a way of comparing my work to that of frontline major gift officers, but sure. Okay, now i think i would have i don’t know if i would have succeeded, but i think i would have liked it. I don’t know. I might have been out after three years. Why did yu let’s turn to lose? But is why? Why a thirty six month average? And and also, how does that work? If someone goes out on maternity leave or or family medical leave or, you know, has an injury or something like that. But first, why the why the thirty six months? We felt like three year rolling average was a great way to measure exceptional performance and that you’re not relying on a successful year and you’re not relying on a particularly poor year, either. So for example, let’s say, ah, major gift officer has ah, year where they raised one point, one point, one million dollars it’s a great fund-raising year well, then, if you take the three year rolling average, you can’t just do nothing for the next two years and and know that you’re going to get promoted. There’s still work to be done? Um, so and on the flip side, if you have a year where you raise only two hundred thousand dollars, you still have plenty of time to make it up, so we thought it was fair in that sense. Um, the thirty six months is what hr helped us to find us as active employment, so if they are, go on maternity leave, for example, essentially their performance cycle thes thirty six months pause and it picks right back-up and thirty six months so that’s, another thing that i want to mention is that we don’t run on the fiscal year, for example, we run on a calendar year from the date of their hyre they’re hired on march first, they’re judged on twelve year cycle for a year, one from march first to march first. So if they were to go on maternity leave on march first and then it would pause for the next three months, it would then pick up on june first, and that would be the end of their very six months, if that makes it okay. So each each person’s anniversary is the date of hyre correct and and there’s a if there’s a chunk missing for medical leave or whatever, then you would just tack on more time at the end. You got it. Okay, okay. Does that does that trouble you at all that or how did you think through this one? Everybody’s got a different anniversary date. I mean, putting aside the record keeping well, we’ll get to that. I mean, that’s a ministerial we could deal with that. But the different people have different anniversaries when they’re thirty six months is up. Does that? Does that concern fundraisers at all? Is that concern you? Well, i think that they believe that that’s actually extremely. Fair um, so let’s say you start in september if you were running on a fiscal year, you’ve only got nine months of performance, so at the end of three fiscal years, you actually haven’t worked for thirty six months. You’ve worked for thirty three months this way, your guarantee that you get the full thirty six months for your promotional review, and, uh, from what i know from the folks who who work here and now live under this, they love the certainty of all this, they know when they’re going to be up for a promotional review, which almost never exists in any organisation i worked at before, one of which was carnegie mellon. You’ve got voodoo, you’ve got booted out all for emotion. No review was something that you might ask your supervisor. Hey, i’ve been doing pretty good for two years, you know, when you’re going to look at, you know, what else can i be? How can i be promoted? And that was always this foggy kind of answer this way. They know at the end of that thirty six months they’re going to sit down and they’re going to be able to review their last three years of work. I’m sorry. You got booted out of carnegie mellon. Pardon? I said, i’m sorry you got booted out of carnegie mellon. Yeah, well, they had crazy ideas. Okay? I’m so uncertain. That didn’t happen. So so is there not a performance evaluation? Interim during the thirty six months there is there’s still an annual praise a ll, um and and that’s kind of the more, um, qualitative way of looking at this. So each annual appraisal has five performance factors, and these performance factors are what we’ve identified to be an exceptional individual, major gift officer. They are perseverance, problem solving, functional technical skills, interpersonal communication and kind of most importantly, donor focus. So that it’s not just about the numbers and i will and i when i would like to say that individual major guest officers tend to be numbers driven people. And they like this career ladder because it’s very transparent and it’s very numbers driven. But to us, it’s not just about the numbers to us, it’s about ensuring that there still meeting the needs of the donor and these annual appraisals help us determine that there still totally donor-centric now i would think that even in these annual appraisal, though, you’re you’re evaluating the a reviewing with the fundraiser, their performance, how they’re doing time versus goal over there for their thirty six month period. Yep, you got it. Okay, so there’s that there’s that too. But but okay, but also call it a more qualitative assessment than than the thirty six months which would be that’s, that’s, pretty quantitative and numerical in the thirty six month review. Okay, well, the thirty six month review so here’s how it fits together, tony. All right, so at the end of the thirty six months so everybody every morning gets there gets their current running total on their screen so they know exactly where they stand. Oh, my, everyone. So at the end of the first year, they will get their current totals and there their average at the end of the second year, they’ll get their current total stand. How that averages so they’re always they always know how hard they have to be working to get where they need to get. Okay? And that becomes that’s important because when they sit down for there promotional review their very well aware of whether or not they’re going to make it or not, the others the numbers there, right? You have seen it and seen it every day during your appraisals, you cannot have needs improvement in any aspect. If you get it needs approval, you will not be promoted because exceptional employees don’t need to improve on one of these five aspects, right? And the biggest one that trips everybody up dysfunctional technical skills. Handup uh, one of the things that’s functional technical skill is putting accurate information and timely in a timely manner on what you’re doing. And so we just have some folks who simply can’t get around to port again trip reports, or they put in inaccurate trip reports, and so they get a needs improvement, and therefore they don’t get promoted because they’re not exception, i see, right? Even if, even if the numbers are there, even if the numbers you can’t need, you can’t need improvement in any of the five qualitative areas that liz mentioned. All right, so what’s the problem with the trip report? I mean, i that that used to be really valuable to me when i came back. Although, you know, if you get behind, then you’re really screwed because you have to forget and hopefully had decent notes. But but okay, we just have about two minutes before a break, but that that’s what? You’d be surprised. How long? Two minutes last. What? What trips people up with the use of inaccurate tripp reports? Like, how does that happen? One of the things that the one of the rules is that one of the only way you could get counted for a credit for a fund-raising visit one of the fifty six is you have to enter a next task. So a lot of folks, not a lot of folks, but there are those people who go to the visit and don’t think about what they’re going to do next. And so, over time, these people who are actually competent fundraisers, all right, they meet their basic numbers. They get a backlog of information that they owe us, and they never catch up. Yeah, i mean, they never catch up. Now, if you keeping up with your visits yeah. It’s it’s hard plus, you know, administrative tasks and things. I definitely if you get yeah. Like i said, if you get behind and you agree, right? Would you have just a minute? Liz, what happens if i come to you and tell you i got an offer at a competing? I got it. I got offered carnegie mellon. And not surprisingly, you know, they’re going to pay me one half times what i’m making at pitt. How does that fit into the career ladder? What kind of nice about the career ladder is that we can say to that employee? Well, this is where we value. This is where we see you. This is where our our standards are. And this is where we see you at pitt. So if you feel that that a move to carnegie mellon or to wherever is the appropriate step for you at this time, we’re sorry to see you go, but this is where we value you. Okay? This being your current salary, we’re not current. We’re not matching. We’re not matching competing offers. No. Right? Ok. All right. Sounds fair. We got more coming up. Of course, we’re going to talk a little about the ethics of of all this and maybe get some dahna reactions as well and talk about the infrastructure you gotta have a lot more coming up. Stay with us. In the meantime, i need to talk about pursuing because they’re a very smart company and, well, they sponsor non-profit radio. So there you go, that is de facto they’re smart company if you need more than that, they rely on data not unlike what we’re talking about with david liz that pit on dh technology metrics analysis, they’re not basing you’re fund-raising on tradition and popular wisdom that gets propagated at a fundraising conferences there’s too much of that around, you need to be smart and analytical and measure and then learn from what you’re measuring and that’s. What pursuing is about, um, for instance, the prospector platform that they have, which uses your data and, of course, supplements it with their algorithms to find your upgrade ready donors who should you be spending time talking to about upgrading from a thousand dollars a year to five thousand dollars a year, or half a million dollars a year, or half a million dollars last major gift to three quarters or a million dollar gift this time, whatever level you’re at, whatever size your shop, they’re going to apply prospector platform and its algorithms to your data and help you. Find the people target the people you should be spending time talking about with around upgrading their giving. It’s all at pursuant dot com i was at the non-profit technology conference back in march, interviewing speakers. I used all those interviews on non-profit radio you’ve been hearing for the past several months, we also shot video of those interviews and now it’s about time. Um, the videos are coming online, we’re going to start putting them on my youtube channel. The first four is up already, and it includes our contributor, amy sample ward, who is the ceo of non-profit technology network, which, by the way, is an excellent organization around using technology smartly in your non-profit and you know, her she’s on every month talking about social media so that’s, one of the four videos that’s up the the others are previewed on my video and of course, their links to all for anti seizure goes and there are more to come because i did twenty five interviews that ntcdinosaur year so there’s, a lot more video to come and that is tony’s take two for friday, twenty eighth of august thirty fourth show of this year. David liz, you’re still with us, right? Yes. Ok. You ok? Thank you. I know you were seven. Sam, let me know, but i just like to say a little affirmation. Um, let’s. See, i don’t know who wants to talk about this there’s? Not really too much. But i just wanted to make it clear when you talk about incentive pay, i think there’s a possibility that people might be thinking of the ethical considerations and constraints that the association of fund-raising professionals f has. And the relevant sort of passages, i guess are that members of a f p shell not accept compensation or enter into a contract that is based on a percentage of contributions. Nor shall members except finder’s for your contingent fees. Well, this clearly that’s that’s really not that’s, not what’s going on here, right? Right. That’s not what’s going on. And there is no relationship between the amount of money anybody raises and there increase in salary. So this is not a okay. You did really good this year. So here’s twenty thousand dollars based on one percent of your increases. This is an actual an actual increase in their salary, their annual salary level and hr work with us to ensure that that compensation levels stayed within the university’s ranges for jobs. That were classified like our jobs were classified and hr actually had no problem with this. We thought that would be a stumbling block, but they really didn’t see a problem with that. Because, you know, the alternative is that people walk in and say, i have an offer from cmu and it’s one and a half times what you’re paying me and what are you going to do and a most instant? Most places that i know and i’ve worked for a bunch of folks sit around a table and say, what do we want to keep that person or not? And, you know, that’s, basically what it’s, what it’s, what it’s, based on right, and they kick it up, and so that drives a long term that drives your cost over because it’s, not controllable, it’s, not predictable and it’s hard to set up long term budgets when you say fifteen percent of the people in our community and asked for more money. So ethic but we’re trying to do is say to somebody, if you, uh, you have a career here and there is a a future that you can envision based on your performance. All right. What has the fundraiser reaction been now since since january? And neither one of you wants to commented did well, i can let me talk about two examples without naming any of the school’s involved. We hired someone from an ivy league school, and she basically said that she had no idea how she would get promoted at the school. She was that she had never seen anything like the career ladder where it says, if you do these things every three years, we’re going to look at the possibility of promoting you within the major gift class, so that made us feel really good, you know that someone from an ivy league school thought this was great? Um and we, you know, recently hired someone for from a private school who also said the same thing now what’s nice about the career ladder is we were able to bring that person in at a four because she had ten years of experience as a major give fund-raising yes, so we’re not limited to just bringing people in in one. And when we sent the numbers over to h r, they said, well, that person fits exactly into who we defined as a four so we don’t have any problem with that compensation, and it actually worked out wonderfully dahna and most people when we come in and handed this booklet during the interview, they’re just amazed that that this thing has been thought out to the details been thought out, has anybody? Ah, i’m going to challenge us to see on the other side has anybody either applicant or employees. When it was implemented, i objected and on departed because of it, no one’s left yet, okay and apprehend list as you’re interviewing applicants, potential fundraisers, anybody said, i don’t think this works for me again. I mean, the young applicants are mother of their millennials or it’s a generational thing, you know, they want to know what their future is going to be like in an organization, and so most of them are very appreciative that we’ve kind of thought it through another existing staff. You know, the reaction has been very positive and i think it’s in large part because it’s so transparent, all right? And yes, it sze clear everyone everyone knows they’ve been knows that i think that he knows the state level of trust. That this engenders it is very powerful for, you know, a group of fundraisers and, uh, one more point on that is we’ve had three promotional reviews two uh, managed to make the jump to another level, and one did so that’s the way it goes, right? All right. And the one who didn’t well, let’s not say his or her name, but nobody listens to this show, so it really doesn’t matter. You don’t worry about that, but the okay, so for people who don’t make the so then they’re still retained a t organization. Yes, there’s capped and now we’re going in thirty six months will look att promoting you the possibility of promoting you again? No, actually that’s not the way it works, the way it works is what we do is we drop off the first year of their three year total and their scent in their third year again, so i don’t understand that what you mean? Ok, so the person who came up had worked here for three years and he didn’t make it. So what happens is we then say, we’re going to take all the Numbers from year 1 and drop him. And now you are in your new third year so you can come up again on your next anniversary. Oh, in one year. Okay, so i’m now right. I’ve now finished my second year and i’m entering my third because we drop the first one off. Yes. Okay. Well, that’s good. Presumably they’re getting better if you had a great, great first here and then you went down that’s not that doesn’t work to your advantage, but presumably fundraisers are improving. Not always, though you might have, you might have a spike one year and and not be able to match it in. You’re too, but that happens a lot. Yeah, on the other thing that’s important about all this is when you move from a one to two, all your previous numbers is zeroed out so you don’t carry those successes forward. In terms of the career ladder, you carry the prospects forward, but those numbers disappear. And so now you’re starting from ground zero again. Yeah, so, you know, it seems like, oh, wow, you know, all these people getting promoted over and over again, but in fact they won’t be because now they’ve gotta prove that they’re exceptional with the other level. And now they have to raise more money because we paid them or so they have to raise more money. And they have to do even better to be exceptional at that level. Yeah. Give us a sense of what the percentage increases from fromthe levels. Can you can you do that? Yeah, we could do that. It’s. I’m going to say it’s between ten and twenty percent. Okay, across all the levels, do you think? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, but that’s. Yeah, but here’s here’s the thing the university of pittsburgh has given out a raise of one point. Five percent for the last three years. Pary here. Right. So that’s, half percent over over three years. And you have the chance to go somewhere between ten and twenty. Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Yeah. That makes sense. It should. Your exceptional. You’re only being promoted your exceptional so exceptional peoples get the exceptional increases. Let’s. Move to the social infrastructure. Little record keeping well, ministerial stuff. What do you what do you need to put in place if you’re if you’re goingto take this on? Well, the first thing you need is some way to validate and verify all the information that goes into counting all these things you’re supposed to count, right? Almost everybody has that. What we have is we have two people who are assigned. Do as i say, validate all the information it goes in. So, you know, that becomes very important. The second thing is evaluation of gifts on some gifts. We have a sliding scale. Um, so certain request, depending on the age of the person, are not going to be valued at one hundred percent. Yes. Okay, uh, you know, so, you know, you want to be fair about these insurance policies that university doesn’t? Oh, are not valued at all our credit. It all right? Because that’s that’s rather krauz remainders knew all those things have have values based on, uh, you know, kind of the standard way of valuing things in the campaign. Right? In other words, all those numbers have to be validated. In other words, they’ve planned giving is getting screwed. That’s what’s happening because i could really i could get lots of bequests. But bequests are revocable and yeah, is there an age? At which a bequest would count at maybe not at not a future value. If the person reveals the amount. That’s just first of all, let’s. See if you think it’s i think it’s, i think it’s. So i have this thing here. Got sixty five. They get one hundred percent information. Okay, let’s, just let’s. Just passed it on age sixty five. Okay, so requests, if they’re over sixty five hundred, chancellor, if they’re under sixty five to get a five percent discount per year to the age fifty five. Okay. That’s, actually. Pretty generous, by the way, liz, that already? I think so. Liz had provided that about thirty seconds ago. But that’s all right, there. Um ah, yeah. That’s. Pretty generous. I was thinking more like seventy or seventy five. Wow. So full face value for aged sixty five. Ok. I think you bring pretty generous there. That’s. That’s. Very nice. Now that that presumes that, of course, the plan giving donors is willing to reveal the amount a lot. A lot would rather not. And it’s also put some pressure on the plan, giving officers to inquire right? And of course, they need what we call. Letter of testamentary intent. Yes, it’s got to be something in writing, okay? And there’s. So you’re not discounting the fact that this remains a revocable gift? No. Okay, but you are discounting that on the life insurance side. You said if it’s a life insurance beneficiary there’s no credit now the university’s nifty insurance is owned by the donor and doesn’t transfer the ownership to the university. Right? Right. That’s that’s the problem, right? The university’s just named as beneficiary, right? Okay. And that that doesn’t count. There’s no credit for that. That beneficiary designation. And i’ll tell you what you know, one of the things that scare one of these things came about is is, you know, meeting with someone who says, well, you know, i’m with this i’m with this corporation and i’m on the board, and so i’m going to put you in this a beneficial for the corporation, all right? On the key map, they’re not key, man. You know what they allow you to do that we’ve had those things just disappear when the corporation disappears. Most recently what? Hines when it was bought. Oh, heinz, of course. Very big in pittsburgh. Yeah, yeah. Okay, i could see that on the corporate policy said, okay, because i’m if i was one of your plan giving officers, i would i would question that life insurance beneficiary designation. If i got it, i got a letter that says, you’re a beneficiary of my life insurance policy and, of course, that share the beneficiary designation form. You don’t see that is equivalent teo to a request for a sixty five year old no, no, okay, go, we’ll take a break, not because of that, not because that the screaming with the break was coming anyway. You’re not cut off, don’t worry, stay with us, okay, okay. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked, and levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti m a r t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Buy-in top trends sound advice. That’s tony martignetti, yeah, that’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m travis frazier from united way of new york city, and i’m michelle walls from the us fund for unicef. Lest you thought that i forgot about live listener love, certainly i did not. We can’t can’t send live listen live by city and state today because they because we are he recorded where we can advance, but of course the love goes out to each live listener. I just don’t know exactly where you are. Podcast pleasantries those listening in the time shift over ten thousand of you, wherever you are, whatever you’re doing as you’re listening pleasantries out toe all the vast podcast listeners and those very important affiliate affections our am and fm stations across the country, there may be ten thousand affiliate listeners who knows? I don’t really know the stations don’t have the ppm data, so maybe there’s no, maybe there’s another ten thousand, who knows? But anyway, however many however few affiliate affections out to our am and fm station listeners. Liz let’s, let’s bring you back to the to the conversation. Is there anything more that you want to tell us about sort of infrastructure that it has to be in place to make this career ladder of success? Yeah, i think what’s important is is looking a little bit at your own. Analytics. Um, so we talked a little bit about, you know, pits Numbers 45 visits fund-raising hundred thousand six agreement sent etcetera those numbers were not thought off the top of our heads are plucked from the sky we used data from our own individual major gift officers going back far fifteen years individual gift officers that were that have a very exceptional record individual gift officers that didn’t and came up with the numbers looking at the data that way so i think it’s important to tell your listeners that if they’re thinking about using a career ladder as a model for individual gift officers that it’s important to kind of examine your organization and and and what kind of data makes sense for you and looking at your own analytic and what those analytics tell you all right dave, anything, anything more you want to contribute to the to the infrastructure question? Well, i think that when you said when you set this up, you have to have some set of folks who are worried about the impending review dates so that all the information is gathered together. All the information is is put together that you do this in sufficient time so that any increase in pay is cleared by hr and buy your vice chancellor. You know, these big organizations, uh, you know, the cat time seems to creep up on you will be sitting there, especially the first two we did after january, you know, the place was basically more or less closed christmas spray, and suddenly you’re coming up on this deadline that you have to meet, and you’ve got it, you’ve got to be ahead of that, so you have to have people care about it and our curating the information, and then you’ve got to get everything in line with all the people have to know you’re going to do this so that when the person comes in, you basically handed the letter says congratulations or we’re sorry that it didn’t work. This time, but yeah, i mean it’s, not the kind of it doesn’t run on its own. Okay? And that’s actually could play into the the hands of small and midsize shops advantageously because they don’t have different levels. They may not even have a person who manages hr. It might be the it might be the executive director taking care of hr so you don’t have to. You have to worry about getting that. I guess that administrative buy-in we’re talking about a leaner organization. So there may be advantages there, making it a little easier to create something like this. Yeah, definitely. I mean, once you decide once, once you decide would exceptional means, uh, then i think that’s the big that’s, the big leap. Okay, what does it mean to be exceptional? And when you determine what it means to be exceptional, what happened? Whether you have three, four, seven, eight however many criteria you have, our metrics you have, you know, it could be managed in any sign shop, but i think where becomes difficulty is where, uh, you don’t really identify what exceptional performances. And, of course, liz, you made the point that it should come from your own data, your own analytics, not from some benchmarking survey of what’s, typical in organizations of your size or something like that. That’s. Exactly right. I mean, you know, when we look at pitt, or if you look at harvard, those that data might look completely different. Um, and so, i think, it’s, beneficial tio to look within your own organisation, because you really can’t control where the numbers fall. When it’s your own data. Yeah, yeah. How about ah approval for this, david? Was this something that that needed to reach the board or no? Well, actually, this needed to work its way up through the chancellor’s office. Okay, jess, um, yeah. So we started hr and, uh uh, it was approved by hr after months and months of work. And then it went up to the chancellor’s chief of staff and then that’s at the level at which it was approved. I was thinking that for a smaller, much smaller organization or non-profit this might go to the board. All right? Yeah, i was wondering presentation aboard because it has somewhat of an effect on the budget. But it’s not it’s, not as overwhelming as you thinking. Here’s actually, advantage. If i have one minute, this is this is very interesting. You have actually, you have just about a minute. All right, i’m on it. So, uh, remember that we have these folks who are scattered all the way through the year, and so from a budget standpoint, the actual amount in that year that they’re going to make might be cut by fifty percent. In other words, the actual outlay. Because hyre of when? They started. So, you know, the way it works is that you actually have. We have the three year anniversary date for twelve people already calculate. So we can estimate based on the numbers that we have thus far, what the cost in the budget would be over the next three to four years, which is really from a budgeting standpoint. Really? Value? Yes, i see the value. That. Okay. All right. We have to leave that there. Liz. I don’t know if you are aware dave volunteered you oftheir to accept questions that people listeners might have. Are you willing? Are you, in fact ah, consenting to that? They’re more than welcome to e mail me at sea lives at pit p i t dot edu see liz at p i t dot edu. Yeah. All right. We have to leave it there, and i want to thank you both david and liz, thanks so much for sharing everything. Thank you, tony. Appreciate a real pleasure. Okay, buy-in, if you missed any part of today’s show, you will find it. Where else? Tony martignetti dot com. In fact, where in the world else would you go pursuant? Full service. Fund-raising you’ll raise airplane loads more money, and i’m not talking about those two seater piper cubs like you see in the local county airport. I’m talking dreamliners seven eighty sevens, like emirates flies with the studio apartments in first class that have showers and double beds filled with money. Pursuant dot com. Our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, janice taylor is no. Sam liebowitz is the line producer today who writes this copy. I wish i had an intern to blame. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, susan chavez, dot com and our music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you’ve got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Amador is the founder of idealised took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. 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Nonprofit Radio for August 21, 2015: Online And At Risk & Your Board’s Role In Executive Hiring

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Diane Oates: Online and at Risk?

Do you accept donations online? Have a “donate now” button? Are you using crowdfunding sites? You may need to register with lots of states, not just your own. Diane Oates is an assistant attorney general in the consumer protection division of the Florida AG’s office and a former National Association of State Charities Officials (NASCO) board member. (Originally aired July 11, 2014.)

 

Gene Takagi: Your Board’s Role in Executive Hiring

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Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group (NEO), walks us through this important board responsibility: hiring the executive officer.  (Originally aired July 11, 2014.)

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with dextrose gas trea, if i was forced to stomach the mere hint that you missed today’s show online and at risk, do you accept donations online? Do you have a donate now button? Are you using crowd funding sites? You may need to register with lots of states, not just your own. Diane oates is an assistant attorney general in the consumer protection division of the florida attorney general’s office and she’s, a former national association of state charities officials boardmember that’s nasco and that originally aired on july eleventh twenty fourteen also, your board’s role in executive hiring jean takagi, our monthly legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo walks us through this important board responsibility hyre ing the executive officer that’s also from the july eleventh show last year on tony’s take two, i’m not speaking to the new york times we’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com here is online and at risk with diane oats with me she’s an assist, associate assistant attorney general in the ohio attorney generals charitable law section. She had been with the office for eight years. Managing a broad range of cases, including charitable gambling and charitable solicitations. She has handled multiple investigations and enforcement actions and is ohio’s point person for multi state enforcement actions. Diana it’s, welcome to the show. Thanks, tony, for having me on. Thank you very much for holding on. Sorry about that. No problem. I hope you enjoyed the music. Oh, i did, um, let’s. See, so these are laws that non-profits have to comply with. And a lot of these laws haven’t really kept up with the new solicitation methods that that charities have that’s correct. A lot of the laws are are older and do not address any sort of internet solicitations. Ah, there are such guy lines is the charleston principles which charities can follow in determining whether they need to register in a variety of states that they are soliciting online right? And we’ll get a chance to talk about the charleston principles. It’s, it’s, but there’s there’s not only online. But then there’s also the mobile giving world, of course, and that is growing by leaps and bounds. We actually just had a multi state they nasco it’s, the national state association charity officials put out some wise giving tips for charities on how to manage ah, and be wise on the internet when doing any sort of mobile giving or any sort of internet solicitation. So you definitely charity should be definitely protecting their brand and making sure they know who is soliciting for them on the internet. Um, and we’re going to get to that document in the wise giving tips the primary question, i think, is what what is a solicitation? And unfortunately that really varies from state to state, you’re correct. In a lot of states, the definitions might be a little bit different in ohio. Uh, it is when a person asked for anything of value, so it can’t be money can be time, and that donation would benefit a charitable organization or a charitable purpose and that’s that’s fairly consistent across the states. But but there are there are nuances when you start to drill down into well, okay, so sending us mail asking for a donation. That’s, that’s. A solicitation everywhere but as you start to go down, too, email oppcoll having a donate. Now, button on your site, driving people to the donate now button that’s, where it starts to get a little murky across the states. Definitely, and that’s, where the charleston principals come into play, and that’s, where the differences arise, because i believe only two states, tennessee and colorado, have adopted the charleston principles into law. Ah, many other states, including ohio, used them as guidelines for when to determine if a charity needs to register with our state if they have such a thing as it donate now, button or any sort of online solicitation. Okay, so we know that they’re adopted in only two states. Right now. Suppose you’re not in aa one of those two states. Can you just pick up the phone and talk to somebody and ask whether they use the charleston principles as guidelines? I would advise calling either the attorney general and your state or the secretary of state’s office, whichever office has the charity regulator located in it and see how they treat the charleston principles you could call up if you’re in ohio, call up our office, we would be able to tell you we used merely as guidelines to guide us as to whether charity needs to register. Obviously, if you are located in a certain state, if you’re located in ohio and you’re soliciting from there, you would have to register anyways, if you’re not let’s, say you’re located in west virginia, then we would go through the factors with you to see if you would need to register in ohio simply by having a donate. Now button on your website. A lot of times, though, i find clients make a call like that, but ultimately the final responsive to get is always we can’t tell you or we can’t advise you whether to register, okay, that and that might be the response in some states and ohio. I mean, we we would try to help you out as much as possible again, we can’t give legal advice, but i mean, i think we could steer you in the right direction isto whether you would need to register or not looking at whether you are, you know, mailing or emailing any solicitations to someone in ohio, if you are soliciting through an interactive website meaning you can collect donations straight through that website and whether you’re these are the two big factors whether you’re specifically targeting a person in our state or whether you’re receiving donations from a purse from people in our state on a repeated an ongoing basis or substantial basis, that so we would go through those factors and try to work with the charity to figure out whether you need to register here or not. We would definitely do that, ok, maybe ohio’s friendlier than a lot of states that that may very well be, but and i’m not saying it’s not worth the call it’s just that because it definitely is worth the call. As you said, either to the attorney, general’s office or the secretary of state, it is worth the call. This is that sometimes, you know, the ultimate answer should i register falls on usually it falls to the to the charity and, you know, and they’re sort of referred to their legal advisors, but it’s still worth the call because, um, you can you can get a fair amount of help. Definitely. Okay, um, we have just about a minute or so before break. Why don’t you explain what thes charleston principles are just so so everyone’s acquainted with them? Sure, they are guidelines which, uh, charity can follow, too. See if they should register in a state merely if they are soliciting on the internet. So what they need to look at if they are domiciled in a state, they will probably need to register there. And what i mean by domiciled is if they have their principal place a business in that state, if they’re not domiciled in the state, they need to look at there. Ah, non internet activities. And if those alone would cause them to register in that state, like if they’re mailing or calling people in that state, they would need to register if they are just asking for donations through their website. And if they’re either specifically targeting people in that state on their website for donations or they’re receiving contributions from that state on a repeated and ongoing basis for a substantial basis, then they would need to register in that state all about looking at the contacts in that state. All right, we’re going to take this break. When we come back, we’ll find out where we can see the charleston principles. They actually happen to be my subway read. I carry them with me all the time, and i read them every, you know, like, every six months or so, i just go back and read them on ben. Diane and i will we’ll keep talking about what’s a solicitation on, including talking about crowd funding sites to stay with us. Could you tell at the beginning of that interview that i was badly out of breath? That’s because i was late to the studio. This was the one hundred ninety ninth show. Andi was the first time i had been late. I had teo either called or texted sam. He had to play the music. I like one and a half times over by the time i got here i had run from the subway, which which is what held me up. So yes, if you if you thought i was out of breath, you were right. And then i i was looking forward to the two hundred show and hoping that i wouldn’t be late for that which which i was not let’s, do some live. Listen, love before we go to this break st louis, missouri clifton, new jersey i used to hang out at clifton a lot because my grandmother used to work at a big pharmaceutical company in clifton son of a gun. Which one was that? I don’t think it was mark. Well, there was a big pharmaceutical company i don’t think is very big and clifton anymore, but she used to work there and i would go meet her after and then my parents were dropped me off. We’d meet her there, and then she would take me to her house. That was in clifton, and we have another us, your masked we see you, we just don’t know where you are. So could be the nsa, fbi, cia, some other acronym. We’re on to you, and we are we are investigating. Also, let’s go to aa japan, konnichi wa, too, in chino, maya and mexico city, mexico, is with us. Also. Hola, que tal that’s really about the best i can recall from from high school, but that’s not so bad. I mean, i think, it’s, how you doing? Right. Holacracy tall tower, mexico city listeners and there’s more to come. Let’s, go to this break, and then we’ll go right back into this interview with diane oats. Stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent got lots of live listener love, let’s start domestic because we’ve got a lot of foreign listeners, of course, but let’s start domestic bethpage, new york. Many in bethpage don’t know who’s in bethpage do you know each other in bethpage live? Listen, her love to you there. Beverly, massachusetts, new bern, north carolina. I just spent some very nice time in north carolina. Thank you. New bern. Columbus, ohio. New york, new york. Live listener loved each of our live listeners. And, of course, there are more podcast pleasantries, of course, to those listening on the time shift where the iran a treadmill car, subway airplane, wherever you are, pleasantries to you. Nine thousand plus ofyou. Okay. Diana it’s. Um, let’s. See, where can we? What? We find these charleston principles to go and read them ourselves? If we would like to do so, i believe they’re located on the nasco net website. You can go to nasco net dot or ge. Okay. And that’s an a s c o net dot org’s the national association of state charities officials of which you are a boardmember. Yeah. And that’s, the organization that created the wise giving tips documents. So while we’re talking about finding documents, what what’s the full name of that document? Sure, it’s the internet and social media solicitations wise giving tips and the tips are for three separate audiences for charities, donors and fund-raising platforms, and it gives recommendations and tips on how to give and fund-raising wisely online. All right, the internet and social media solicitations wise giving tips and that’s also on the nasco website, right? Correct. Okay, crowd funding the crowd funding sites. Those raised a lot of questions. I get this a lot when i’m doing speaking, what if we are using crowd rise or deposited gift? What do who’s supposed to register them? Right? If you’re a charity again, i would direct the charity to the charleston principles. Usually on those websites, you’re not targeting a specific state unless maybe an event is taking place in a certain state or, you know, your charity is located in that state, so and i think it’s unclear also, whether the fund-raising platforms themselves need to register with states that’s still kind of an open question, okay? And also get questions related. When charity’s air working with community foundations and and the foundation is sort of the past through for the for the donations, the question then is who should be fun? Who should be registering and again looking at the charleston principles if it’s just a passer, entity that’s just doing some administrative work with processing donations, they might not need to register, so i would again and advise those community foundations toe look at the principles right for the community foundations and then the charity’s the same who exactly? Okay, but yeah, as we said, unfortunately, you don’t know for sure, except for two states, whether the state is is adhering to the principles. How come, how come, why is it that more states haven’t adopted them either? Officially, i guess through their legislatures or may be not as an act of the legislature, but just officially through the office that manages the charity registration process in each state, and that is a good question. I am not. I’m not really sure of the answer there, and yeah, i should probably talk to tennessee in colorado and see how they got that pushed through. I’m not sure why more states haven’t actually officially adopted them, okay, dahna because they are really cool, and they’re called charleston principles because i believe it was in meeting of nasco that was held in charleston, south carolina, where they were. These were adopted. I think they were. The discussion started there, yes, in charleston, south carolina, that’s. Why they’re called goodbye, not okay, but maybe not adopted there. Alright, yeah, attorney holding my feet to the fire e used to be an attorney, but so now that now i run roughshod over things. So thank you for being explicit. Okay, what about? We know there’s one state where you don’t have to register. Tell us about that. I believe that. Arizona? Yes. Yes, arizona. I believe they recently did away with their registration statue. I’m not too sure about that, but that is not a growing trend that icy. Definitely. I see that kind of an outlier. Okay, okay. So one point does not one data point does not make a trend. Things that i can’t even make a line from one point. Okay, but yes, arizona has explicitly said charities that are on ly soliciting in our state. I don’t need to register and yeah, they had a statutory system around registration and that was repealed or, you know, largely repealed. Yes. Um, now you made a point earlier that we wanted i want, like, just liketo amplify your home state where your incorporated that we should certainly be registered there. Yes, than any place where you have any principal place of business. Well, okay. So differentiating the inc you’re you’re only incorporated in one state, right? Because you’re not you’re not not-for-profits corporation, and that can only be one state. But you could have places of business. In lots of states, you can have the principal place of this that’s, probably in one state, but then you can have multiple locations everywhere and if you’re, you know, conducting solicitations from those locations and yes, definitely should be registering in the states. Now you’re you’re a, uh an important player in this because you’re a nasco boardmember but it’s so, um, divers, because we’re fifty difference sets of statutes and, um, timetables and fees and things do you do you get frustrated by this process? It it can get frustrating. And we definitely hear from our constituent charities that it is frustrating and that’s why we do have twelve states that are working on a single poor, cracked the website where charities khun go and register and they wouldn’t have to duplicate the process over and over again. Okay, this is the single portal initiative. Exactly. What more can you tell us about what state that is? Or i don’t mean state. You know what? What state it’s in, etcetera. What can you tell us? Uh, well, the single portal project is being headed by twelve pilot states. They include california, illinois, alaska, colorado, connecticut, hawaii, massachusetts, michigan. Mississippi, missouri, new hampshire and tennessee and basically it’s, a project that has three components one obviously is to create a unified elektronik registration system that will allow non-profit organizations and then they’re professional fundraisers to goto one site and fulfill their registration requirements for all states eventually at that site. Um, another component is also to be a public website where anyone can get this information that’s filed, academics could get it tio create analysis of emerging issues and trends. The public can look up this information to make more informed choices about their charitable giving and also non-profits can look up this information to compare thie effectiveness and cost of their professional fundraisers that they hyre and third, this would be a great tool for regulators. They could direct their limited resources away from registration and toward their core purpose of preventing fraud and misuse of charitable funds. Is this ah, envision to be a free site for charities? Um, that is a good question. I not sure about that. I know that this is kind of a three year time period where they’re going to try to get this off the ground rather soon and have it. Build up in phases over the next three years. I am not sure about the fees. I do not know that. Ok, ok. Um, timetable do what stage is it at now? It is at the beginning stages. Thie pilot states created a nonprofit organization in delaware. Teo, help develop and operate the website. And they just decided that the urban institute they chose them to design and build the single portal website. So it’s in the process of being built. And they are also establishing an advisory committee to help with the design and operation of the system. Okay, is it is it funded yet? Or were steven still too early for that it’s in the process of funding and the the non-profit, the multistate registration of filing portal the non-profit that was formed is reaching out to the non-profit community. Now, with grant proposals to help build up funds for this project. Okay, so that’s something to look forward to. Handup so is there not yet a timetable? Like when this should be live? Or maybe not all twelve states, but at least some initial minimum viable version? Um, i think i mean, the goal is to roll. Out the stages in the next three years. So hopefully in the next, maybe two years, the registration sites would be up and running. But please don’t call me that, okay? Okay, we won’t. Nobody listens to this show anyway, diane so you’re fine. Okay, well, we know that arizona standing alone. Not a trend, but are there any other trends that you do see coming up? The big trend icy is internet fund-raising on and that’s. Why nasco did put out this wise internet giving tips the intern fund-raising on the internet is growing. I believe in two thousand three it was about six point four percent of all charitable giving, but still it’s growing lead some bounds year by year. So we were really urge charities. Teo be aware of their presence on the internet and be aware of who’s raising money for them on the internet. A lot of thes fund-raising websites, they download the database of charities from guide star. And then anyone can just go on and start fund-raising for a charity, which is great. But you also want to make sure that no impostors are going out there and claiming that their associate it with your charity and trying to gain access to your donations, so check out the wise giving tips on also the charleston principles those will help you, andi will put, ah, put links to those on the takeaways from the show, which go up on the facebook pages afternoon diane, please leave us with the nasco conference that the charities are welcome to come, too. Yes, definitely. The two thousand fourteen nasco conference is on monday, october six, at the hyatt regency washington on capitol hill in washington, d c the theme this year is the evolving role of charitable regulation in the twenty first century. There are a lot of great panel scheduled i’ll just mention a couple first will be disaster relief and opportunities for collaboration between regulators and the not for profit sector. Um, our luncheon topic is our charities really charitable with our keynote speakers? Thomas kelly, who is a professor at u n c school of law, and john columbo, who’s, professor and interim dean at the university of illinois at chicago school of law and then one panel, i think, is going to be extremely interesting about ratings and evaluating charities. We have three. Panelists are taylor, who is president and ceo of the better business bureau. Wise getting alliance. Daniel bora chop, who is president of charity watch, and ken berger, who is the ceo of charity navigator. And then we also have panels on a messa you bit executive compensation are wise giving tips and then also a single portal update, so it should be a great conference, and you can get more information about the conference at nasco. Net dot org’s, thank you very much. Art taylor and ken berger have been guests on the show when we did the, uh, the altum the myth, the what was it, thea, the overhead myth letter that’s, right? We have the three signers of the overhead myth letter on and those they were two of them. All right, diane, thank you very much. Thank you, my pleasure, diana it’s, associate assistant attorney general in the ohio attorney general’s charitable law section. And i have an update tio what? Diane, i’m just talking about if you’re interested in this year’s nasco conference, that is october fifth of this year and ah, nasco net dot or ge is the place to get more information. I called my mother on the brake and asked her the company that my grandmother used to work for in clifton i was mistaking it was not a pharmaceutical company, but was i t and t international telephone and telegraph? Do they even exist anymore? It and t i don’t i don’t know if they do, but that was where there was a big plant that my grandmother worked at when i was growing up. Tony, take two and your boards role in executive hiring are coming up first. Pursuant, they do full service fund-raising they have web based tools for small and midsize non-profits do you need more prospects? I hear that a lot that that’s a problem. You need more prospects at higher levels and related to that. How do you know who’s capable of upgrade? This is what pursuance prospector platform does. It finds your upgrade ready donors. So you know who to pursue for larger. E-giving trent riker is the ceo at pursuing he has a background in non-profits for about twelve years, he leads this company. They are data driven, technology driven, and prospector platform is one of pursuing smart online tools. You’ll raise more money pursuant. Dot com, check them out new york times i’m not speaking to the new york times, and i implore them to stop stealing my guests. It happened latest incident. Latest incident was just last week. Remember, will mccaskill, the professor from oxford, oppcoll what happened? Okay, i do love scott stein, but not his time. Are we okay? Okay. I don’t mind. Scott stein a little. Well, who? Um it was a phantom sam throwing his arms up. He doesn’t know what happened. All right. Anyway, we’ll mccaskill so he’s on the show last friday. Of course, talking about his show doing good, his book doing good, better. And then on saturday, he’s in the new york times profiling his book doing good, better you believe that? And there was another time it was about two or three years ago and i’m sick of it. It’s happening too often do two points like that make a trend? Absolutely. The video where i explain this in more detail and you’ll see my ire. Is that tony martignetti dot com knock it off new york times do you know about fund-raising fundamentals? That is my monthly ten minute podcast devoted to fund-raising only for small and midsize shops, it’s fund-raising only not on ly for small and midsize shops, large shops could listen to, but i’m not thinking about them when i’m producing the show it’s a burst of fund-raising info i would say it’s only once. A month, i do it for the chronicle of philanthropy. So that’s published on their site and like non-profit radio, i picked the brains of experts and you listen on your own schedule. That one is not live. That is strictly a podcast. Recent ones preparing for your next recession with paul rosenberg from the bridge band group and boosting your plan e-giving with our own creative producer claire meyerhoff there’s info on fund-raising fundamentals at tony martignetti dot com and at the chronicle of philanthropy. Although gotomeeting durney dot com because i need the traffic and chronicle of philanthropy is doing just fine. That is tony’s take two for friday twenty first of august thirty third show of the year. Here is r wonderful. Ah, informative. Smart contributor on the law, jean takagi on your boards role in executive hiring jean takagi he’s with us. You know him? He’s, the managing editor, attorney at neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the very popular non-profit law block dot com on twitter he’s at g tak g ta ke jin takagi welcome back. Hi, tony in congratulations on one ninety nine. I’m looking forward to two hundred next week. Cool. Yes. I’m glad you’re gonna be calling in for with us. Thank you very much. Thank you, it’s. Very exciting. Really? One hundred ninety nine shows ago. It’s one hundred ninety nine weeks it’s it’s. Remarkable. Um, we’re talking this week about the board’s role in hiring the executive and i’ve i understand that there are a lot of executives in transition. I think so, tony and it looks like some surveys have confirmed that it’s certainly been syrians with some of my clients and even on boards i’ve sat on over the last couple years. And there’s, a great group called compass point out in san francisco there nationally known as one of the most respected non-profit support centers and together with blue avocado, a non-profit online publication, they have a national survey on leadership succession in transition going on just right now. The last time they published the results with in two thousand eleven, and they found that sixty seven percent of current executive anticipated leaving within five years and ten percent. We’re currently actively looking to leave right then, and in two thousand eleven, the economic times weren’t so were so great. So sixty seven percent anticipating leaving within five years that’s a pretty staggering number. So now we’re already three years into that survey into that five year projection. Yeah, and sixty seven percent of two thirds. So if we had held this show off until two thousand sixteen, then it would have been moved. But there’s a new one coming out, you said, yeah, well, they’re they’re just starting the survey online now so you can participate on that. I don’t know the website, but if you, you know google non-profit transition survey executive transition survey, thank you, you’ll get that okay, and its compass point it’s a compass point and blew up a goddamn kottler who you’ve. You’ve mentioned blue vaccaro before i know. All right, so, yeah, two thirds of of ceos were expecting to be in transition within five years and where we’re only three years into it now. So the presumably these people are still looking. What? But boards don’t really spend enough time preparing for this kind of succession, do they? Well, you know, in many cases they don’t, and sometimes, you know, they might stay, they don’t get the chance because their executive director comes up to them and give us in two weeks notice, and now, you know, the board may be used to meeting every month or every other month or even every third month, and now all of a sudden they’ve gotta ramp up their efforts and find an executive to come in in two weeks. That’s going to be really tough to do on dh, you know, again, if we say at any given time, two thirds of the non-profit executives are looking to leave their job, you know, it’s very likely that within your board term, you know, you may have an executive transition to manage, and sometimes with very little notice. So that’s that’s? Why? I think succession planning is just really a core duty of non-profit board. Well, how do we let them get away with this two week notice? I mean, the ones i typically see are you know, the person will stay on until a successor is found, you that’s, not your experience. Well, you know, you’re really lucky if you if you do get that situation, i think most non-profit executives are hired on at will basis. Meaning that there’s, not a contract to stay there for a given number of years. Either party can conception, rate or terminate the employment relationship at any time. And as the average, you know, employee may give two weeks notice to go on to another job there. Many executives who feel the same way that they, you know, they may feel like they own allegiance to an organization. But another opportunity comes up and it’s not going to be held for them forever. And they may want to move on. Um, and they may feel like what they gave the board really advanced notice that they might be looking for something that they might get terminated. So they may keep that information from the board until the last two weeks. Well, because all right, so that i am way in the dark because i would. I just presumed that executive directors, ceos even if small and midsize shops were not at will. But they were but that they were contract. I mean, when i was a lonely back in my days of wage slavery, director of planned e-giving i was in at will employees, which means you can end it. Like you said, you could end at any time and so can they like, if they don’t like the color of your tie one day they can fire you, you’re at will. But but that that’s typical for for ceos and and executive directors. Yeah, i think for smaller non-profits it’s very, very common. Oh, i just always assumed that these were contract positions with termination clause is and no. Okay, but, i mean, you know, it’s, your practice, i’m not i’m not disagreeing with you, i’m just saying i’m okay, i’m learning something s so that’s that’s incredibly risky. So it is. It just put you in that position of saying, well, i need to replace somebody immediately and i don’t you know, as a board we don’t meet very often can we even convene within the two weeks to find the process going? It’s going to be so much better if he had a plan of what happened in case you know, our executive every doesn’t give two weeks notice, and even if the executive says, you know, in your scenario, maybe a longer notice, maybe, you know, in six months, if they do have a contract at the end of my contract, i don’t plan to renew, you know, i think we should go through the process of looking for for a successor and having a plan or thinking about that plan that is just coming up with something on the fly is going to probably result in a much better choice for selection of a leader in the future and that’s going to be critical and how well the organisation operates and how the beneficiaries of your organization are going to do are they going to get the benefits of a strong organization or are thinking is suffer because the organization can’t do it? You can’t advance mission as well. It should. Yeah, i mean, you’re you’re calling it on the fly. I would say two weeks notice for an executive director. Departing is is a crisis even four weeks notice? Yeah, in many cases you’re you’re absolutely right. Okay, i’m right about something. Thank you. You’ve got something right today. All right. So what do we what do we do, teo, to plan for that? Just well, you know, i think the first thing the board has to do is start toe think about the contingencies. So what do we do and then actually want one thought that comes to mind that, uh, that you raised tony is should we get our executive director on an employment contract? If they are and that will employee do we want to lock it in? And they’re sort of pros and cons with that? If you’ve got, like, not the best executive director in the world, terminating somebody on a contract becomes much, much more difficult than if they were at will employees. So, you know, you kind of have to weigh the pros and cons, but, you know, revisiting your current executives director and the employment relationship is maybe step one. Oh, and suddenly he was thinking about, well, do you have a really strong job description that really reflects with the board wants of the executive director and on the basis on which the board is reviewing the executives performance on dh? Maybe the sort of initial question to ask in that area? Is do you actually review the executive director and that the board you absolutely should? You and i have talked about that the board’s is not part of their fiduciary duty to evaluate the performance of the the ceo? Yeah, i think so. I think it’s a core part of meeting their fiduciary duties that really, you know, as a board, if you meet once a month or once every couple of months or whatever what’s more important, you know, then really selecting the individual who’s going to lead the organization in advancing its mission and its values and implementing your plans and policies and making sure the organization complies with the law. Taking your leader is probably the most important task that the board has, because the board is delegating management to the to that leader. Yeah, absolutely. And i think it’s often forgot naralo overlooked that individual board members inherently have no power and no authority to do anything think so, it’s only as a group. When they meet collectively, can they take aboard action? So for individuals to exercise, you know, powers on behalf of the organization that has to be delegated to them and typically the person responsible for everything is that ceo or the executive director. We’re gonna go out for a break, gene. And when we come back, you now keep talking about the process. The what goes into this process, including the job offer. So everybody stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email. Tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact, i guess, directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Duitz gotta send live listener love, let’s. Start in japan with tokyo kiss are a zoo and nagoya. Konnichiwa, seoul, south korea, seoul. Some someone south korea, always checking in love that on your haserot. Moscow, russia, mexico city, mexico, ireland. We can’t see your city ireland’s being masked for some reason, but we know you’re there. Welcome, welcome, ireland, and also taipei, taiwan. Ni hao, nobody from china, that’s, funny, nobody from china today, coming back to the u s, we got cummings, georgia, in ashburn, virginia. Live listener love to you in georgia and virginia. Okay, gene. So now we’ve let’s say, we’ve learned that our exec is departing and let’s not make it a crisis situation, though let’s say this person is generous enough to give six months notice. So, you know, let’s, not make it a crisis. Where what’s our what’s, our what’s, our first step as the board. Terrific. And i’ll just add, even if you don’t, if you know your executive is not leaving any time soon and i think you should go ahead and start this process anyway. Oh, yeah, clearly we should be. We should have a succession plan in place. Yes, we’ve talked right? Okay, yeah. So i think the first thing to do is get a committee together so it might include boardmember some outside experts outside with the board. If you don’t have that internal expertise and just getting different perspectives out there, some of your other stakeholders might be really important in what, you know what you want to look for in an executive in the future. So get that committee together first, get the buy-in of the current executive director. So unless it’s going to be, you know, a succession plan for a termination? Yeah, we’re really unhappy with executive director, right? Let’s not get into that. Yeah, let’s get their buy-in and have them help in the process. Especially with your scenario where they’re giving a six months notice and everything is amicable. Let’s, you know, see? Shoot, who knows better about the organization than the executive director that’s in place right now. So i’m getting there buy-in and help contribution. I think it is pivotal. Does this committee have to be comprised of hr experts? Why? I think having a least one or two hr experts is going to be really helpful. But i i think it’s more than that. It’s, you need program people who understand what the executive you know roll is no respect to advancing the program. You need the fund-raising people to know well, what is the going to do with respect to fund-raising perhaps the seeds, the lead fundraiser and some small organizations as well. So we need thio gather a bunch of different people with different perspectives and expertise to figure this out. And i think that’s a very good point to include a t least a programme expert. Now, could this committee include employees, or does it have to be sure you can absolutely on dh? You know, you might even have have have different subcommittees in there. So eventually this is going to go up to the board. But as the committee’s doing the legwork for determining what? You need an executive director and putting together a job description, and and, you know, perhaps, but the performance evaluation is going to be based on for the future executive director all those things can get, you know, we’d be aided by the contribution from several areas. Okay, okay, what are your thoughts on hiring a recruiter vs vs? Not well, i you know, i think it depends upon what the organization shins resource is our and the organization should understand the marketplace it’s in a swell hiring two great executive director is the competitive thing. So, you know, if you’ve got a lot of resources and you’re able to you want to allocate an appropriate amount of resource is tio what i think again is making one of your most important decisions of the board? I don’t think you want to do this on the cheap at all. I’m just the same way i didn’t want you to do it on the fly or or or in a rushed matter-ness think you want to invest in this, and if you don’t have great expertise inside about on things about, like, doing job interviews and doing background checks on the sex thing, you know how to differentiate between one candidate and another when they all look good on paper and when they’re maybe professional interviewees, but they’re not there, maybe not great leaders. How do you figure all those things that if you don’t know, that dahna an executive search firm could be a great help, and it can just open up the marketplace of potential candidates as well, especially if they, you know, decide to do a regional or even a national search. It really can ramp up who who you’re going to see in front of you and the quality of the candidates that the selection comedian the board eventually will have to choose from. Okay, does the committee now come up with a couple of candidates to bring to the board, or is it better for the committee to choose one and bring that person to the board? How does this work? You know, i think the committee should be tasked with bringing several candidates up on sometimes it may be a multi tiered process so they might go through two rounds of screening, for example, and and at least let the board see who’s made the first cut. And then and then, you know, present to the board, the final, perhaps two or three candidates. If, if you’ve got, you know, the ones that are very close and in quality in terms of what the board want in an executive director, i think that’s pivotal. I wanted to add one. Nothing, though. I’ve seen this done before, tony and i don’t really like it and that’s when. If a search committee or research consultant comes up and says, you know, to the board, tell me what you want in the good executive director everybody, you know, spend five minutes, write it down and send it to me or take it home and email it to me oh, and tell me what you want and then the search consultant collates the the the answers and then that’s, you know, the decision about that’s what’s going to be the qualities you’re going to look for. I think this needs a lot of discussion and deliberation and the value of that, you know, that that thought process and that really difficult thinking and getting all those generative questions out there is going to produce a much better product in terms of what you’re looking for and who you can get and how you’re going to do it. Yeah, you you send this tio use email and, you know, it’s going to get the typical attention that an e mail gets, like a minute or something. You know, it’s it’s going to get short shrift. And your point is that this is critical. It’s it’s, the leader of your organization, you want do you want the contributions of the committee to be done in, like a minute off the top of their head just so they can get the email out of their inbox? Yeah, definitely. We could talk about board meetings and another show, but put this at the front of the meeting and spend, you know, seventy five percent of your time talking about this. This is really, really important, okay, you have some thoughts about compensation, and we just have a couple minutes left. So let’s let’s say we’ve the board has well, i can’t jump there yet. Who should make the final call among these candidates? Is it the board? Yeah, i think it should be the board that makes the final approval, but they they’re going to put a lot of weight based on what? The executive of the search committee, you know, tell them who they’re you know, the recommendation is okay, and i think that toe add one more thing to it is make sure the organization looks good to clean up your paperwork and your programming and even your facilities. Just make sure you’re going to be attractive to the candidate as well. Because if you want to attract the best, you better be looking your best as well. Okay, okay. And the with respect to compensation now, we’ve talked about this before. What? What’s excessive. And there should be calms and things like that, right? So it’s really important to make sure that the board or unauthorized board committee one that composed just board members, approved the compensation before it’s offered to the candidate. Even if you don’t know that they’re going accepted or not, once he offers out there that compensation package, total compensation should have been approved by the board. And you want to do it with using the rebuttable presumption of reasonable procedures unless you know its far below market value. Okay, if you get payed accessibly or if you pay somebody excessively, that could be penalty taxes for everybody. Including the board. Should be careful of that. We have talked about that rebuttable presumption before. Yeah. All right, then. We have to leave that there. I look forward to talking to you next week on the two hundredth great. Congratulations again. And i look forward to it as well. Thank you, gene. Gene takagi, managing attorney of neo. The non-profit and exempt organizations law group, his blog’s non-profit law block dot com and on twitter he is at g tak. Some updates, of course, too live listener love because you were listening to live listener love from july eleventh, twenty fourteen. So that’s a that’s. A little bit at a date, more people have joined us, including wilmington, north carolina, media, pennsylvania. Pottstown, pennsylvania, and spring lake, new jersey. I spent a lot of time very close to spring lake in belmar because my other grandmother, not the grandmother who worked at i t that was my mom’s mom. But my dad’s mom and dad had a home in belmar and i used to go there weeks on end. My parents were thrilled to get rid of me when i was four, five, six, seven, eight years old. Oh, my gosh. Lots of weekends in belmar. And i know that spring lake is a very, very pretty town. Also, uh, what’s the big hotel there where i’ve been for dinner, the breakers. Is that the breakers? That beautiful hotel? Ah, not literally on the water, but pretty darn close right across that little little just across ocean have love spring lake and interesting springlake media and pottstown you’re listening from itunes cool live listen love to each of you also joining us sao paulo, brazil, beijing, china ni hao and belong j portugal live listeners love to each of you now you might have noticed that on that july eleven twenty fourteen show, there was no podcast pleasantries and no affiliate affections. You see how this show is growing and expanding and innovating constantly on one hundred ninety ninth show. The next week was going to be the two hundredth. We don’t have podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections. Now we do so pleasantries out to all our ten thousand plus podcast listeners wherever, whatever you’re doing, affiliate affections love you too all our affiliate am and fm stations i want to waken affiliate affections. I’m just realizing it’s a f f f f f after two dafs squared affiliate affections! I don’t know, maybe that’s too that’s hokey. Besides, i like thea. I like the the ah what is it when all the words start with the same whatever that that i love it’s an alliteration. Thank you saying so. I liked the alliteration, so we’re sticking with affiliate affections. No. After two next week, i told you it was coming. Incentive pay for your fundraisers to fund-raising administrators from the university of pittsburgh. Very senior people share their innovative pay plan for their frontline fundraisers. If you missed any part of today’s show finding on tony martignetti dot com, where in the world else would you go? I i believe that i had said that i was going to stop singing weeks ago, but i must have been misinformed. It’s my show and do whatever i want. And if you don’t want to singing host, get your own show, i beseech you, go ahead pursuant full service fund-raising you’ll raise train car loads more money, and i’m not talking about those two person little flat beds that the people pump up and down like a seesaw to move along the tracks like, you know, oh brother, where art thou? I’m talking cattle cars, container cars, tank cars filled with money pursuant dot com. We’re going to go out with a live version of cheap red wine today. This is the live version from the two hundredth show, which was the week after the show that we just turned the two segments from scott stein came in the studio, brought his elektronik eighty eight keyboard, and he played cheap red wine, our theme music. And since it’s snuck in earlier today, phantom lee, we’re going to go out with it. Here’s. The live version from the two hundred show our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer show social media’s by susan chavez. Susan chavez. Dot com on our music is by scots. Dine with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great wait can agree on nothing. Wait till our ups from my down wait disappointed in each other. Now tell me, baby, and this love that we found. You know, you used to find me charming, but i can figure out how. And you said, you thought those handsome. But it doesn’t matter now. So came falling for my punch. On just long in time, we’ll allow, because i’m you got her empty promises. A bottle of cheap red wine. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. It took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe. Add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five.